Talk:The Norn Fighting Tournament/Archive 1

Possibly PvP?
Im wondering is there gonna be PvP Fighting Tournament also and you could be able to make own tournaments, when game will be released? Or is it just fighting computer ppl?
 * So far we've only seen fighting computer opponents, rather than PvP. (Kisai and Sogolon, specifically.) I doubt it will be PvP, as it's designed to be a minigame to curry favour with the Norns, rather than an actual test of strength. --Valentein 13:31, 7 August 2007 (CDT)
 * It looks really easy, seeing as how they won at full health with a smiting monk. Imagine what an ele or war can do...or a sin that kills them right away:D.&mdash;[[Image:Cheese.jpg|50x19px]] Cheese Slaya  ( Talk ) 16:29, 18 August 2007 (CDT)
 * They also had 10 health and mana regen. Perrsun 16:50, 18 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Thats what I was gonna say lol...must be a norn form or something.&mdash;[[Image:Cheese.jpg|50x19px]] Cheese Slaya  ( Talk ) 20:25, 18 August 2007 (CDT)
 * If a Monk with Heal Party and Smiting skills can win, then this better not be PvP (Otherwise, RA has competition). Also, is it just me, or is the video prior to it the definition of strange. Rlly...wth? Readem (talk *contribs ) 20:42, 18 August 2007 (CDT)
 * The devs probably made it so they get all that regen...but still...you fight henchman? That seems pretty easy...just go for great jsutice-enraging-sever-gash-dragon slash-dragon slash-dragon slash adn they're dead...lol.&mdash;[[Image:Cheese.jpg|50x19px]] Cheese Slaya  ( Talk ) 12:36, 19 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm lookin foward to this :)Warior kronos 14:02, 19 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Sliver armor, obsidian flesh, backfire, price of failure,there are many skills and builds that makes 1V1 a fairless fight--Kuritsutian 09:15, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
 * You may use PvE skills. It must be PvE. --[[Image:Warrior's_Endurance.jpg|18px]] numma_cway 14:38, 24 August 2007 (CDT)

Izzy must have had fun with this one...
Okay, this game is friggin' awesome, by the way. Costs 100g to get in, and believe me, you'll be broke by the end of the day. The builds used in here are pretty awesome, and random...

Let's see now.
 * Mhenlo uses Whirling Defense and Throw Dirt.
 * Sogolon learned a new trick: "Watch Yourself!".
 * The Great Zehtuka starts up Whirling Defense, Throw Dirt, then he starts... TRAPPING. For the loss.
 * Lukas is surprisingly tough, with his Hamstorm build running at full power. (Glyph of Lesser Energy, Bed of Coals, Hamstring, and Firestorm.)

Both Xandra and Kahmu are found in the tournament, and defeating them unlocks them.

Anyone else found anything new yet? -- Jioruji Derako.> 07:53, 24 August 2007 (CDT)


 * I'm guessing maybe use IW against them? --Blue.rellik 07:57, 24 August 2007 (CDT)


 * Ah, need to be careful though. Norgu loves his Empathy... Assassins work well on them, if you can manage to kill fast enough. Shadow Prison > attack chain with stuff like Plague Touch works fairly well, as people love Blind (Kisai has Glimmering Mark, and a few others have Throw Dirt). You don't actually need to kill your foes, only get them low on health; so you have a slight advantage there. But you're at a disadvantage having to plan ahead for conditions, hexes, spells and melee, all on one character... final fighter in the tournament is a Norn, and he'll kick in Bear form and hit for 200~300 damage with his hammer, from what I've heard. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jioruji Derako.> 08:16, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
 * So you can only use 1 build for the whole thing? Well that does blow --Blue.rellik 08:22, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Little Thom uses Hamstorm! To be exact:




 * --[[Image:Roland_icon.png]]Roland of Gilead (talk) 13:18, 24 August 2007 (CDT)


 * Ah, you're right... Lukas had some silly build with Auspicious Parry. (I lost to him... T.T) --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jioruji Derako.> 19:05, 24 August 2007 (CDT)

Just beat Magni the Bison...here are some facts.
Apparantly, the builds the opponents run vary, either according to your own profession or some other factors. For me, a Ranger, Mhenlo was a 55 (yes, damnit), Little Thom was Hamstorm, Zehtuka was a trapper, Morgahn was using Apply Poison and Troll Unguent, Vhang was a blindbot with Mystic Regeneration and Armor of Sanctity...(the only one I consistently couldn't beat).

I had very little trouble with most of the opponents; Cripple and interrupts are beyond godly in a 1v1 situation like this. However, Magni the Bison is a whole different story. Even if you interrupt his Bear Form (which is fairly easy to do with a Flatbow and RtW), he'll come at you with Irresistible Blow to punish your blocking stances, will remove conditions with Purge Signet, will land 200-300 damage hammer blows, and an unholy amount of health. He may have hex removal too, but I don't know, and indeed, his build may be different for different professions. I only just barely managed to beat him after many, many attepts (in fact, it was a double KO, but the game counted it as a win for me...) We should definitely write up some build suggestions by profession, in the same way as the Guide_to_defeating_doppelganger article. Arshay Duskbrow 10:45, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah, I had Mhenlo as a 55 as well. I only beat him because I brought a vamp weapon (thank god). Zehtuka had a Fragility trap build, which would have hilariously pwned me if I hadn't brought in Ebon Vanguard Support (gogo level 10 assassin!) to distract him. Same with Gwen, she brought in a Signet of Midnight degeneration build which also kept me frustrated, until I pulled the same trick. --Kale Ironfist 11:04, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
 * As an Assassin, I've run into all the same builds; I don't think they change based on profession, but there's an awful lot of people, so testing it might take a bit. PvE skills are definitely a big help, because otherwise, you've got to plan ahead for nearly every condition and fighting style in the game. (Mhenlo alone will need to be beaten with condition removal AND enchantment removal... I'll probably just use my touch ranger though.) A guide would be nice, and a good place to start listing off all these builds that the NPCs have... --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jioruji Derako.> 19:09, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I too am using a ranger in the tournament. I've gone though it 6 times and haven't had any problems with the opponents, except Bison.  I've been using a build With Burning Arrow, Screaming Shot, natural Stride, Poison Tip Signet, Steam (for blindness with Burning Arrow) and Rust, so that I have time to use distracting shot on Bison's Purge Signet.  It's a sound concept, but I've yet to make it work.  I simply spend too much time trying to run out of his attack range.--Ninjatek 19:13, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Well I eventually worked out a build that I could use to (fairly) consistently defeat him, although timing and interrupting certain skills are key.


 * I got the idea from the "Lightning Hammer" build, which has always been a favorite of mine. Basically, you interrupt Bear Form with Savage at the start, you Distract Irresistible Blow, and use the KD from "Like A Dwarf" along with "On Your Knees" to continually recharge Lighting Reflexes, with Prepared to keep the energy going while the Poison and Bleed eats away at him. It is a matter of luck though. Even with LR up constantly, he can still get some lucky hits in, and it doesn't take very many...also, Distracting IB is crucial. But this does work, I got my Crown by using this method. Have fun! Arshay Duskbrow 22:23, 24 August 2007 (CDT)

I did it as a Ranger too... Finally. Here is my build.

Its a modified touch ranger. I'd start out with a short bow equipped. I discovered that if I hit Distracting Shot as I was running in, still out of range, it would be timed perfectly to interrupt the initial bearform. I made sure to put poison on that first shot to make Bison use his Purge Signet. Then I would blind him and switch to a weapon set with good energy. (see Touch Ranger build for good weapons on this) This build breezes through all the other opponents, its only a tricky with Bison. Just remember to poison him before you throw blind on him and you'll do OK. Mcbain68 22:50, 24 August 2007 (CDT)

Warrior/Necro Build:

I Just beat Bison. It takes a couple of goes to get it right, but once u do its easy.

The few I found difficult to beat were Lucas with the riposte build and Melonni with her Avatar of Dwayna. Against Lucas simple wack him till ur adrenaline is full, then wait for him to get u to 200HP. At this point hit him once, and activate Grenths Balance. Follow up with plague touch if ur bleeding, or barbarous slice if ur not, gash and final thrust. Works most times.

Against Melonni just let her wack away at u until u nearly die. Grenths Balance, Barbarous, Gash, Sun and Moon Slash and Final Thrust. Should Kill her.

Against bison wait until he is nearly at u before casting Spinal. Once he gets to u, simply wack at him. Use Bonettis whenever it recharges, and Grenths whenever u need HP as it does alot of damage to him. Barbarous Gash, Sun + Moon and Final Thrust and he should be dead.

Need Icy Weapon... Max Sword, 9 Curses 9 + 1 Tactics Luminarus 01:46, 25 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Nice build, but I found it had some serious shortcoming. Plus, Spinal Shivers wasn't doing an awful lot against Magni himself, and Alesia was an absolute sticking point with it. I modified it by just switching out Spinal Shivers for Pain Inverter (My New Favourite Skill™) and it works an absolute charm. Takes out those really nasty opponents neatly. For Magni, drop PI on him straight away, and he'll take some damage on the first swing, purge it, then start beating you up; from then just keep beating on him until down to about 200 health (Though he usually swings out a few knockdowns at this stage, be careful) GB, Barb, Gash, S&M, Bonetti's and tank a bit more until PI comes back up. --Glommon 17:41, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I found the standard Critical Sin Build to do wonders against Bison.

Critical Strikes: 12+1 Dagger Mastery: 10+1+3  Shadow Arts: 7  Earth Prayers: 4

May take a few tries to get to him though. I beat Gwen with this build. Lost to Norgal (thinks thats his name). Just hope you get lucky and fight all melee attackers. :) --209.33.42.252 02:23, 26 August 2007 (CDT)Trice Battle

Any Build

Beat Bison with this, just kite and hope. Make sure to keep Painful Bond up as much as possible. Start off with Shadowsong. Once you build up the armor get off a Painful Bond and then Summon Spirits to the middle of the arena. Pretty simple build, train wrecks everything, with the exception of the multiple foe battles. The Elite can be changed if you have a smaller pool of energy for Offering of Spirit. However, Soul Twisting helps a TON against Bison since you can instant recharge Shadowsong, although with low energy builds you won't be able to put up Painful Bond right off the bat.

I think that should solve everyone's problem...As long as they have all three campaigns and a decent rank in Sunspear title. 66.168.62.50 20:15, 1 September 2007 (CDT)

Location
Where do I find this Tournament? 84.136.189.52 12:40, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
 * nvm, found it. 84.136.189.52 13:26, 24 August 2007 (CDT)

Good builds
I'm willing to bet that a Burning Arrow Ranger with Remove Hex instead of rezz sig would beast here. You've got good dmg, 2 interrupts, degen, hex and condition removal. What else ya need? frvwfr2 (T/C) 13:10, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
 * A repeatedly applicable snare to defeat the last boss and something to outdamage Mystic Regeneration. 84.136.189.52 13:26, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Natural Stride is nice... I don't even know where this is though, so... [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] frvwfr2 (T/C) 13:27, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I used Grenth balance, Dual Riposte, Sever, Gash, Plague Touch, an Enchtantment Removal, Wild Blow, Flail on my war. Just pray that you dont get that Mystic Regeneration/Blinding Flash/Mind Shock Ele. Dunno about Rangers. This is in Gunnars Hold, Southeast corner, take Magnis quest and pay 100 gold to the guy near him to enter the tourney.84.136.189.52 13:31, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
 * And I bet that a Mesmer with Clumsiness, Ineptitude and Backfire works wonders here, add Healing Breeze (yeah, Healing Breeze) and an Enchantment Removal and you're good to go. 84.136.189.52 13:49, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Nah, not HB, Restful Breeze. And I bet Signet of Midnight, not Ineptitude is better. [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] frvwfr2 (T/C) 14:04, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
 * The BA Ranger at least got me to the end, and yes it can overpower Mystic Regen. I've heard the BM's can be good, as long as you get them to aggro the pet. Devona is crazy, she used Death's Charge and BackBreaker spiked me, lol. BBreaker, Crushing=GG. Shoulda used Natural Stride, DOH! [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] frvwfr2 (T/C) 14:11, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Now that I think of it, YAA! would be GREAT, or even an SP sin maybe? [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] frvwfr2 (T/C)
 * SP sins will have problems with blocking stances. No, wait. Exposed.84.136.189.52 14:15, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah, use Expose->SP->BLS->HotO->FS->TF. The KD stops things such as Bear Form, which is DEADLY, and no self heal shouldn't matter if they get killed fast enough... the Ele uses Blinding Flash though... [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] frvwfr2 (T/C) 14:19, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Here is my warrior build : Sever Artery/Gash/Fear Me/Auspicious Parry/Riposte/Deadly Riposte/Remove Hex/Healing Signet (12 Tactics, 12 Swordmanship). Works great on all melee opponents you'll fight (including Magni). Just use Auspicious Parry, Riposte and Deadly Riposte. Paragons aren't a problem either. On casters, use Auspicious Parry on their staff attacks, then Fear Me, so they'll run quickly out of energy. Eve is a bit hard at beginning, but won't be a problem with some practice. Just try to remove SS and Insidious Parasite. With this build, a run is 5-10mn long, depending on your opponents. Zun
 * Zun's build works very well. I have altered it slightly replacing Sever Artery and Gash with Barbarous Slice (requires NF) and adding "For Great Justice!". This allows for "Fear Me!" to refresh after 2 hits. It took me a while to get used to it but once you get the hang of it, it works very well. Here is the template code for those that are interested: OQMTEHKX5Bx6WsjDGCzVplEAAA

A 55 spoil victor necro works for almost any opponent. The only problematic and possibly unbeatable foes are Nika because of Shattering Assault and Devona because of Shadow Refuge, Healing Signet and slow hammer attacks. For Nika, cover enchantments and quick re-application of PS should work. Bring Protective Spirit, Essence Bond, Balthazar's Spirit, Mending, Spoil Victor, Blood Renewal, Plague Touch, Optional. Melonni uses Avatar of Dwayna, so you have to wait until it wears off. --Roland of Gilead (talk) 14:44, 24 August 2007 (CDT) For Necros, I like "Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support" and "Summon Flesh Golem". Just summon the Sin outside the enemy's aggro bubble and exploit the corpse that'll immediately appear! :D ~  Gold  <font color=#FF9900>Dean   - 16:57, 24 August 2007 (CDT)


 * Beguiling Haze seems to work well...


 * ...works on the casters, because they don't start up until you finish casting Mark on them, and then Haze interrupts their first spell. Dazing doesn't help on the melee though, but you can still beat them. I'm off to try some more gimmick builds. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] <font color="#237d00">Jioruji Derako.> 19:30, 24 August 2007 (CDT)


 * This build worked well on my Ritualist: ...


 * ...place the spirits just outside the door, wait for energy to recharge between each spirit, only use Dissonance if you need the interrupt, cast Nightmare Weapon and agro then painbond, pull (and tank) foe slightly off to one side so AoE does not kill spirits. Consume Corpse is a safety net, use it on a dying spirit if your health is low. --Heurist 22:09, 24 August 2007 (CDT)

Fighting Game references.
The spectators around the arena mention things about the opponent you face, and many times there's a reference to a fighting game: Rival Schools, King of Fighters, The Rumble Fish(that one made me laugh) Street Fighter, etc. And it seems that Anet decided to make the spectators while you fight Koss to say quotes from Anchorman.Concerned Citizen 17:51, 24 August 2007 (CDT)

Your Help Needed - Compiling Opponent's Builds
The main article hasn't started this yet and I figured it would get messy if done in the Talkpage. So, I compiled a list at User:Entropy/NFT of all the enemies and what skills I've seen them use so far. Please add to this repository, and also post any successful builds if you want. I figure this would be a good starting point from which we can eventually update the mainpage, and eventually make it look like the Guide to Defeating Doppeganger. Thanks! 24.6.147.36 00:17, 25 August 2007 (CDT)

Invincible Monking's Heaven
Seriously if you have a invincible monking build u basically can farm this. Invincible monking includes This totally put Paragon into disgrace, I used it I won twice I was so happy cause 90% of the time I died due to the fact its party support. Kullwarrior
 * Assassin -Critical Defense
 * Derverish -Mystic Regeneration (no enchant removal)
 * Necromancer -SV 55monk
 * Monk -55 monk of course

Personal favorite
For a 55/105 Mo/N (probably a N/Mo, too), this works about 95% of the time.

For more information on using this build against EVERY FOE and some general tips, I made a very long, very pretty build page: User:The_Goron/Builds/SV_Invincimonk_Against_Magni

Feedback is appreciated! The Goron 01:31, 1 September 2007 (CDT)

Great build
A guy on wiki posted a 99% effective Me/N build to farm this Tournament. I can't test it, because I don't have pre-order or Signet of Illusions on Mesmer, but... Well, it's here:

Fast Casting 12+3, Illusion 12+1+3 Start with SoI, AE, Assassin, then immediately WoD, SoI, Assassin, Shinking Armor, SoI, Asassin, Necrosis. For tougher enemies, at the end use Insidious Parasite and spam Necrosis. Here is a nice video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZnBd-_0FW4 &mdash; Abedeus   10:45, 25 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Had no luck with this one, might have worked before but now he takes on bear form before I can get close enough to cast WoD, let alone throwing an assassin at him before hand, and avoiding him until it wears off is insanely dificult. --Nela 09:13, 2 September 2007 (CDT)

Ranger??
any sure way to win with a ranger??? I cant seem to beat him!!!

Try to have 14 expertise, put the rest into Marksmanship and possibly Wilderness Survival. Keep melee fighters crippled, kite away from them while doing considerable damage and degen through Poison Tip Signet + Sloth Hunter's Shot. Daze casters with Concussion Shot to make them mostly harmless, use other interrupts as needed. Cripshot + kiting works on Magni too. If you accidentally let him get to melee range (or lag a bit) trigger Whirling Defense to avoid a quick death. Argo (and possibly other eles too) heals himself very fast through spamming spells; try to Drain his attunement at the start before he covers it with something else to limit his spellcasting. 88.85.130.54 16:15, 25 August 2007 (CDT)

The sin farms again!


Shadow Arts 12+1+3 Fire Magic 12

This is a variant of the UW farming build, (actually the only variant is firestorm, but hey, thats not my problem) All you do is put on all radiant armor, cap the rest of your armor off with attunement runes put on a totem axe and a good fire offhand. After that you just use Attunement, Djinn's haste, run in a bit then use Shadow form, Glyph, Meteor shower, Lavafont, Bed of coals, and Djinns Haste, and the'll be done in so fast you cant help but laugh at them laugh at them. The last guy is a bit tougher so you just add firestorm, and use the lava font and flame djinns haste as soon as they recharge and he'll die without hitting you also. Its really easy. Using this build I've only lost once on Bison, because I completely forgot to use glyph lol. Actually, it kills quite efficiently even if the enemy interrupts shadow form. Totaled up, it usually only takes me 5 minutes max to kill all 6 opponents.

I agree, definately the easiest sin build for this. on my second round meteor shower was interrupted and still won. This build is excellent!--121.208.172.69 08:33, 9 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I have a question, how do you beat Magni with this build? I've gone two rounds in a row getting to Magni easily, but the whole chain doesn't kill him for me.  I even get him below halfway, but by then Shadow Form is gone and I'm having a hard time casting then.  What's the deal here? --Method3 23:25, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Spirit Spammer on Rit Secondary
See: User:Thor79/Builds/Spirit_Spammer_for_Norn_Tourney --Thor79••Talk 16:16, 25 August 2007 (CDT)

This has worked on my low energy profession (Paragon) with the following 2 steps Yamagawa 17:54, 25 August 2007 (CDT)
 * 1) Drop Nightmare Weapon for Offering of Spirit (elite) for energy management.
 * 2) Bring spellcaster weapons to boost max energy to about 45 (could throw in a low energy set for closer to 60 energy, + energy armor for another dunno... 20 energy, but why overkill things?)
 * Great build, mate! Thank you for posting it. This may sound a little pathetic but so far I had little luck doing this quest with my monk. Here's a little suggestion though. There's a slim chance Magni will deliver a blow or two, and that may cause a death quickly. So I left Nighmare Weapon home and brought Protective Spirit to maintain on myself after setting up the spirits. It's a good way to prevent 'accidents'. ;) —[ Adul ] 19:10, 25 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Keep Shadowsong up and you won't have to worry about that...he might get one hit but while blinded chances are he'll miss. Also created a page for the build in my userspace. Thanks for the tip Yamagawa...I'll add it to my page. I've replaced Nightmare weapon with an Optional slot...so I'll add in Offering of Spirit in the Variants section.--Thor79•[[Image:User-thor79.png]]•Talk 20:13, 25 August 2007 (CDT)


 * Generaly, I spread the spirits out in an arc around the foe. This has the added effects:
 * Foes actualy charge a spirit to attack it rather than hap-hazardly mull over attacking while running back and forth dodging spirit attacks
 * You can dodge past spirits, letting your hapless attacker get body-blocked on them
 * The final boss somehow manages to still kill 3 of these spirits, despite blindness, before finally sucumbing to a 2nd painful bond. Yamagawa 02:31, 27 August 2007 (CDT)

Taming the Bison
I've just been using the degen+run away approach on my Me/A.

Fast Casting 3+1, Illusion Magic 12+2, Inspiration Magic 6+1, Deadly Arts 7, Shadow Arts 9. With IW thrown in to take care of the first 5 chumps, it's easy as pie. Use a caster melee weapon+shield for the normal contenders, then switch to a staff for M. Bison to get 50 energy. Start with Phantom Pain, he'll Purge Signet. Immediately Burden, AI, Nightmare, Pain. Stay relatively close to him so you can hit Siphon as soon as he Purges again. If you have max energy, you can use Nightmare without AI. It should work out that you use AI on Nightmare every other time. Note the duration of Siphon, and recast it when necessary. When he Purges again, Burden. Rinse and repeat. And remember to run away: meleeing him, even with Neutrality up, is liable to get you killed.

Also note, against the Shattering Assault sin you must run away and use the slowing technique. Against Argo, focus on staying alive and do not engage him until he runs out of energy. Nobody else I met lasted long against the IW/FN combo. -Rette Alarix 199.74.99.111 10:59, 27 August 2007 (CDT)

[opponent's name] as [build]
should we compile a list and put the opponent's name as [build] like how its Mhenlo, as 55 Monk. another example is Eve, as SS or Koss, as Shock Warrior. --Mrguildboi 18:27, 25 August 2007 (CDT)


 * Maybe we should just make this page into an official page, since it has so much more information than anything else --Gimmethegepgun 19:12, 25 August 2007 (CDT)


 * I say we work on both for now, then once we've got everything up and running, figure something out. Entropy's page would make a great official article as a build list, while we could keep this article as a shorter list of foes and a basic explanation of the tournament. Maybe use Entropy's article as a "Guide to the Norn Fighting Tournament" article or something? --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] <font color="#237d00">Jioruji Derako.> 19:22, 25 August 2007 (CDT)

Magni is not always the final fight
After beating Magni five times, the sixth time he was replaced by Palawa and his minions. Anyone else notice something like that? —[ Adul ] 19:32, 25 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Yes, I saw Palawa instead once... was wondering about that too. - <font size="1" color="green">Spectrus <font size="1" style="text-decoration: overline">T 18:23, 26 August 2007 (CDT)

Opponent Listing Format Idea
Check it: ~ <font color=#DDDD00> <font color=#FF9900>Gold <font color=#DDDD00> <font color=#FF9900>Dean   - 22:03, 25 August 2007 (CDT)


 * alesia is a wammo not w/a :)-Mrguildboi 22:22, 25 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm just showing the formatting, I'm not showing the data. ~ <font color=#DDDD00> <font color=#FF9900>Gold [[Image:DeanIcon.png]]<font color=#DDDD00> <font color=#FF9900>Dean   - 22:28, 25 August 2007 (CDT)
 * oh... well its a pretty cool idea.-Mrguildboi 22:53, 25 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Looks pretty good; you probably don't even need the show/hide box (I think there was already something about keeping that formatting out of articles, because it's so complicated, and makes it hard for just anyone to edit). Simple mini-skillbars are easy to fit though, and can give people a good look at what they'll be facing without having to look at a guide. Then, we can have a separate guide article, for people who don't already know how every build works. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] <font color="#237d00">Jioruji Derako.> 00:21, 26 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I only put that Show/Hide box in there so it wouldn't clutter up the talk page. ~ <font color=#DDDD00> <font color=#FF9900>Gold [[Image:DeanIcon.png]]<font color=#DDDD00> <font color=#FF9900>Dean   - 05:30, 26 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Okay, cool. But yeah, once we've figured out at least most of the skillbars, maybe after the game goes live, I think we should implement that design. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] <font color="#237d00">Jioruji Derako.> 06:18, 26 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I totally support it, it looks very good. --Blue.rellik 01:17, 6 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Saw Kilroy using Mending+Frenzy today... not 100% sure tho.. And if I remmenber right, Zho is Bunny thumperKemal15:34, 7 October (CST)

Super Norn Fighter II Turbo
Anyone notice the last boss is called M.Bison? - jzf.
 * Already a trivia/reference on Magni the Bison --Mrguildboi 00:17, 27 August 2007 (CDT)

Increasing difficulty?
I've noticed that certain opponents only show up in the earlier rounds and others only later. Like I've never seen Alesia or Little Thom with their inspirational builds after round 2, and never seen Mhenlo anywhere but round 5. I've not been in a lot, but I think increasing difficulty makes sense. - <font size="1" color="green">Spectrus <font size="1" style="text-decoration: overline">T 18:27, 26 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Yes, that seems to be the case. -- Gordon Ecker 18:45, 26 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I've fought Mhenlo in round 3 before, and fought Alesia in round 5 once, so I'd dispute that. DKS01 00:08, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Well actually, in my build, Alesia is much harder the defeat than Mhenlo, so its probably random.. or set by complexity of build possibly? 55 monk is more complex than wammo.

Mhenlo's build
Did anyone actually observe Mhenlo using Protective Spirit in his 55hp build? BftP 10:48, 28 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I think Mhenlo uses Prot Bond instead of prot spirit. 76.80.114.221 10:55, 28 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I've just gone through the hundred or so screenshots I took of the tournament, and can't find a single instance of him using P-bond or P-spirit. The official wiki doesn't have it listed either. Either this is an oversight, or this is the worst 55 build I've ever seen. BftP 11:04, 28 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Actually, he seems to have a permanent Protective Spirit. Which makes him...the greatest 55 you've ever seen. :P Arshay Duskbrow 11:20, 28 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Looking here seems to point toward him having an enchantment up acting as Prot Sprit, but he never casts it, though it can still be removed (smack him with Lightning Hammer after removal and win) --Gimmethegepgun 11:29, 28 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Only way to be sure is to use (Glyph of Sacrifice +) Inspired Enchantment on him on the 31st. BftP 12:14, 28 August 2007 (CDT)
 * He does have protective spirit. I know this because after defeating him, he cast it on me. --Ayaname Wolf 21:04, 5 September 2007 (CDT)

Tip
I don't think this belongs in the article. It is just one of a thousand ways to beat Magni, and should be turned into a proper "hints" section. The guildwiki should not be blessing any particular build as the one true way. Also, if Anet does not improve the tournament against spirit spammers by the 31st, I'll eat my crown. BftP 12:27, 28 August 2007 (CDT)
 * We could do something like the Guide to defeating doppelganger, since this tournament is challenging for a lot of professions. However, that style of article (list of tips) usually turns into a mess real quick. BigAstro 13:47, 28 August 2007 (CDT)

Spirit spamming still completely works. Just cast the spirits outside the door, run in, and use Summon Spirits. The timing takes a bit of getting used to, but there's about half a second after entering the door before the door starts to close. The bigger issue is that there is now no point to repeatedly winning the tournament, because you only get tokens.

Changes in retail
Apparently they've atleast changed it so, that the opponent aggroes to the player right after exiting the starting room and the door closing. Making atleast spirit spamming harder, tho you can still deploy them half inside the door, aslong as you dont step completely outside. Yujiko Ineluki 11:01, 31 August 2007 (CDT)

Bug
some battle which i played the enemy's got healed by a dwarven prospector using heal other <font color="Orange">Fox007  13:29, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah, the dwarven spectators are definitely cheating. D:  Of course, some heal the enemy, some heal you, so....  162.83.100.159 20:52, 31 August 2007 (CDT)

hate that they made that change it was going good with my spirit build then they let the opponents attack u before u even enter the room its a stupid change
 * Lay them inside the doorway/threshold, they'll still hit after you enter and the door closes. Then just run up and attack, draw them back to the spirits and they'll die pretty quick. Worked well up till all the NPCs decided to heal Magni whenever he got below 75% health Zaboomafoo 22:35, 31 August 2007 (CDT)

Too damn easy
Trap it. Simple.--Darksyde Never Again 18:03, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
 * REALLY depends on class. its a poin on a dervish. Ima get my necro up here, they itll be easy.--Coloneh RIP[[Image:Coloneh.png]] 03:46, 1 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Dervish? Couldn't you just 130 it? or do some of them have enchantment removal?--Darksyde Never Again 11:22, 1 September 2007 (CDT)

Spectator Healer
There is a spectator (perhaps more) in most audiences who will heal you if you stand near enough to him when you engage in the fight. It might be a dwarven monk casting Heal Other, or a human rit with Soothing Memories. Each heal is for 180 health. The audiences seem to vary randomly, and sometimes I have seen my opponents getting healed instead of myself, and times where there seems to be no healer at all. But if you can locate your healer and stand near him/her while you fight (they might be carrying a staff), he/she will spam this skill to keep you alive. It will not be enough to overcome Magni hitting a spellcaster for over 300 hp each time, but with Protective Spirit or some other protection, it can be enough for you to engage in a fairly ordinary--if lengthy--fight with him until he gives up. The healers also appear in the first five matches from time to time, and it appeared that, though the audiences vary each time you go into the tournament, they seem to stay the same for each whole series you play. So if you can locate your healer near the beginning of the series, he/she should be in the same place by the time you meet Magni the Bison. 71.59.167.87 20:51, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Confirmed heal other.--Darksyde Never Again 01:53, 2 September 2007 (CDT)
 * It's my impression that the healing spectator always is placed on the right side, as seen from the entrance. MuckyDuck 06:33, 3 September 2007 (CDT)

YMLaD + Degen
I just finished that imba quest with mesmer build in 2/5 of page I gave few days ago. I found that instead of Web of Disruption I can use "You Move Like a Dwarf!". And it worked much better. Since it's a shout, you can use it while casting a spell or running, so you can interrupt Magni's Bear Form before he finishes it. If not, just run around, constantly degening him and using YMLaD as soon as it recharges. I used, of course, Signet of Illusions + Arcane Echo + Assassins so he went to 70% health before he killed them. Just try to keep him outside melee range, put degen while he is knockdowned and crippled, use spells like Necrosis that are armor-ignoring, cost little and cast fast. And the better your Norn rank is, the better. You can use Deft Strike, to add bleeding and a little damage. But Necrosis is much better. &mdash; Abedeus   11:04, 1 September 2007 (CDT)

Build for a Monk primary needed!
Hey, I REALLY need a build for this. I tried a couple things including a 55w/ SoJ (Signet) and Balth's Aura and i did ok, until i got to the Monk with the 2 necro Thingies. There vamp didnt kill me... but i couldnt deal enough dmg cause of the monk. He used heal area and jut kept healing ecryone. =/


 * Spoil Victor + Life Siphon on the normal 55 Monk Build can kill everything except Tydus and Devona.


 * I don't think it'd kill Mhenlo...--Darksyde Never Again 12:30, 2 September 2007 (CDT)


 * The SV build works fine on Mhenlo. You need to drop any regen you have, so when he hits you the first time for 5 damage, you stay at 50 health while he has 55. SV will trigger at that point, and as long as you have at least 6 Blood Magic, it will be enough to kill him the first time it goes off. I've used the N/Mo 55 SV build and the only one I haven't been able to beat with it is Tydus. &mdash;Vendetta411 17:18, 2 September 2007 (CDT)


 * Another build that works great for monks is: prot spirit, sever, gash, distracting blow, aus parry, dual riposte, heal sig. Can beat (nearly?) any opponent (even Eve, although it can take ages). [[Image:Riven-sig.png]]   12:29, 3 September 2007 (CDT)


 * Try >>this build<<; been working on this one for awhile. The Goron 21:22, 4 September 2007 (CDT)

Build That Works for ALL!
Bear Form. Aka Ursan Blessing. Use it, it's all you need to beat this, i just did it no problems at all with this. No self heal needed.--Darksyde Never Again 00:51, 2 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Failed bretty hard on Lukas and Tydus --zeeZ


 * Use the above X/Rt build with spirits. Should be in the build that works section of this discussion.  Worked for everything with me.  Shadowsong destroys melee. 66.168.62.50 21:48, 2 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I found Lukas and Tyrdus to be real easy with Ursan Blessing =/ Trying bringing a pet. I had a BM build at the time and just swapped blessing for Heal As One. The extra damage and extra target might be what made it work.--Darksyde Never Again 13:47, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

Zho Has Two Loss Dialogues
Someone might want to confirm this, but if you beat Zho once you have gotten the journal from her, her loss dialogue is different from when you beat her before you get the journal.--John deathblade 14:50, 3 September 2007 (CDT)

Spectator healing...
I have screens of a dwarven spectator healing myself and headmaster vhang. This is quite annoying as I have a build that needs no healing... GB ftw. Is this normal? Nilator 19:07, 3 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah they heal sometimes. Usually from what I have heard (haven't encountered it myself yet) its either a dwarf monk using heal other or a human rit using soothing images(?).  Its a bug I hope to be fixed.--John deathblade 22:21, 3 September 2007 (CDT)


 * Sometimes there will be a dwarven spectator on the sidelines who uses Heal Other to heal you and your opponent. Picking him out before entering the arena is difficult, as his name is no different from the rest of the spectators, but he will be holding a staff in his right hand, or a healing rod and an offhand, instead of a shield or a bow. He was not present in the Sneak Peek Weekend, so he was apparently added to introduce a random element into the tournament.
 * He spawns randomly, as his presence in one fight doesn't guarantee he will be there in the fight directly afterwards. Every time I have come across him, he has been in one of two places: on the right-hand side, nearest to the opponent's starting location (specifically, the second spectator in line, from left to right, when facing him), and on the right-hand side nearest to your own starting gate. There have even been instances where they will both be present for the same fight.
 * Melee foes, and some ranged opponents, can be lured outside of his casting range, and sometimes you can ignore him altogether if you're dealing damage quickly enough. Alternately, versus ranged foes that can't be lured outside of his radius, you can attempt to use an AoE skill to drive the opponent away from him. However, in certain fights, his presence makes it very difficult to win. He heals whichever opponent in his range needs healing--to test this, I used a 55 build and stood directly under him versus a melee opponent, who was farther away from the spectator than me, and kept my health at max/near max. Whenever I would reduce the enemy's health past a certain point, he would heal the opponent. Without moving, I dropped my healing enchant and stopped dealing damage to the enemy, and the spectator began healing me instead. Feel free to use any or all of this information to update the main page, as the bit at the bottom, "If you are closer to the dwarf than the foe, he will only heal you.", is false. The Goron 21:34, 4 September 2007 (CDT)

Primary Monk Build - possibly the fastest farmer for this?
I've been toying around with a lot of monk builds for this, and well, I only have a Monk, so I wanted to be able to do this. I finally came up with this build: http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/User:Lutz/Builds/Mo_A_Norn_Arena_Farmer - it kills almost any opponent in 5-10 seconds, with the exception of Magni, which is in 45 seconds. ~ Lutz 22:50, 5 September 2007 (CDT)

Gwen's Flute?
Has anyone got it this way? I've beaten her with a Flute from presearing and Gwen's Broken Flute from postsearing in my inventory and got nothing. --87.113.15.147 18:20, 13 September 2007 (CDT)
 * ...That's not how you get it. See Then and Now, Here and There.[[Image:bunneh.jpg]]-<font color=#01440A>The Bunny  20:30, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

Primary Rit build
Here's what worked for me, it'd probably work with a secondary too but I haven't gotten any of my other characters there to test it out:

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Hold Vorizun for extra energy, then cast Bloodsong and Vampirism on the line, since they last longest, then back up and put Agony out of the way by the wall so it can't be attacked. Wait for a little energy regen, then put the rest of the spirits down on the line. Get in the arena, and wait for Magni to use Purge Signet on the Blindness. Fire off Painful Bond and there you are! You might have to run around a little bit in the arena to keep Magni from attacking the spirits. &mdash; <font color=#000080>kyrasantae   12:09, 24 September 2007 (CDT)

Idea for Ritualist
how about ou put all your spirits before the door opens then use skills like draw spirit and stuff ( sory not got a rit so don't know them) to move the spirits to the other side of the door and they will kill the guy?

My Necromancer/Mesmer Build
Necromancer/Mesmer

Attributes and Skills

Cures=12+1+3

Domination=12

Inspiration Magic=3

Template OAVDI8MHDWtnmcoxIIlE

Equipment Any Max Armor Will Do Modti's Depravation
 * Armor
 * Weapons Larry Lawnchair

Energy +10 Cold damage: 11-22 (Requires 9 Curses) Halves skill recharge of spells (Chance: 20%) Halves casting time of Curses spells (Chance: 20%) Halves casting time of Curses spells (Chance: 20%) Health +30

Usage

Grenth's Balance=1

Insidious Parasite=2

Plague Touch=3

Backfire=4

Empathy=5

Ignorance=6

Elemental Resistance=7

Physical Resistance=8

Tested Against

Sogolon 8-2-5

Alesia 8-2-5-4-3 No Need to do Phisycal Dmg. Hexes will do the work.

Lukas 8-2-5-6

Eve 4-2

Devona 8-2-5-6-4

Orion 7-4-2-5

Cynn 7-4-2-4

Kahmu 8-2-5-4

Talon Silverwing 8-2-5-6

Xandra 4-2-5

Razah 8-1 Very Hard, Try to stay out of range of spirits.

Little Thom 7-4-2-5-6

Warmaster Tydus 8-2-5-3 Continue to use Plage Touch=3 as needed.

Mhenlo 2 Very Easy :)

Kisai 7-4-2-5

Gwen 1-2

Agro 7-4-2 Use Grenth's Balance=1 if needed, try staying just in-range of his stone daggers.

Vekk 7-4-2-5 Watchout for Shatterstones knockdown.

Ghostly Hero 8-2-5-3 Run up to him so he will attack in melee.

Melonni 8-1 Keep Physical Resistance=8 up at all times, use Grenth's Balance=1 to stay alive till her Avatar ends then use 2-5

Panaku 8-2-5-3 Use Backfire=4 if needed.

Morgahn 8-2-5-3

Magni the Bison 8-1 Keep Physical Resistance=8 up at all times, run around and continue using Grenth's Balance=1 Trying keeping health above 50% at all times. Watchout for his knockdowns.

Notes Will add rest of the opponents when I can. Sandpaper Kisses 72.179.164.76 15:56, 1 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the idea. I swapped Plague Touch out for Necrosis (level 5 or 6, don't remember right now) and the tournament was basically a pushover. Magni and especially Vhang need a bit of luck, though, and for some reason I often have problems with Devona, meaning I have to run around to regen and then beat her in another round :P Razah becomes really easy if you're quick enough to bring him down with Necrosis before he has communed all his spirits.

Couldn't you just go 55 Spoil Victor? ... GG

Mesmers dont need to do it cheap Rt way..pfft


I only lost to Danika, and once to Eve. Later on, I managed to beat Eve so it's all about timing. With this build, I was able to win two times consecutively after that. 16 dom, 10 FC, 10 Insp. The build itself is pretty self-explanatory if you need any help let me know.Gabe 07:18, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Sweet, thanks. Worked nicely. Trapper Zehtuka was annoying. I replaced Failure with Ether Signet. Bison however sometimes is lucky to hit even when blind. Maybe I should add ymlad to interrupt his bearform so he has less hp and does less dmg. --Birchwooda Treehug 01:22, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Hard Mode
Can the tournament be done in hard mode to earn points past Norn Title 8? -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 21:15, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Hard Mode doesnt seem to affect this tournament. --Soulflame 13:16, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Warriors
I found tryin to beat Bison to be a pain on my warrior, in the end, I found used this and he didn't touch me once

Not in game at, and I dont' remember what my points where set to, I think it was 9 swordsmanship, 12 curses, and 9 tactics (with +4 to tactics), and I had my energy armor set on, and with my weapon, gave me about 38 eenrgy or so. Getting to bison isnt' to bad, you'll kill the melee opponenents quickly, casters you can use the necro spells along with sever artery to degen them, without to much trouble. Only problem I had was when I fought razah, cast your 2 spells on him, then wait for him to cast wanderlust, and itnerupt it, then run back to the corner and let him degen, after 15 seconds or so, run up and reapply them, its a slow process, but it worked for me. When you get to Bison, he's a pushover lol, cast parasitic bond, he'll purge it, then cast faintheartedness and parasitic again, and altertnate between auspicous parry and riposte, using deadly riposte as a cover if you need to recast or heal, doin it this way, he only hit me once.

Good Place to get Elite Headgear
This is a good place to get Elite headgear. The usual headgear is 10K + 2-3K in materials. Here you can get it with persistence or by buying Bison tokens from sellers (for well under 12-13K). I got three sets of headgear here for different characters. This armor piece counts toward your Hall of Monuments Armor tapestry. Great value. -Hex on the Beachy
 * The Crown isn't considered "Elite". It is not part of any armor set, so it will not appear in the Hall of Monuments. I've been wearing a silver crown since EotN came out, and it has never appeared on my larger-than-life statue. --[[Image:Scottie_bow.jpg|19px]]  Scottie_theNerd  (argue)  05:22, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Besides, i'm to believe the headgear isn't req to show off your set, you'll have it displayed even if you didn't equip/buy it. Flechette 05:30, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Zho is hiding!
I've run through this five time alreayd and I haven't seen Zho once D:. Bug or just bad luck?--<font color="Pink">Giga <font color="Black">†ħŕášħ 04:59, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Bad luck, I assume. If you like, I could figure out the exact odds of Zho appearing based on the current information we have available. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 05:01, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Just beat it 3 more times, no Zho :/ Although I did find a build that hasn't lost yet.--[[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg]]<font color="Pink">Giga <font color="Black">†ħŕášħ  05:35, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I've just got my third crown and still not seen Zahmu :( Celt 10:46, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Joko
No really. If he's in there fine, 2 minions with him even makes sense. But Zoldark the Unholy's skill set? Now someone's just making stuff up. How about the fact that we've got the text for beating him but not losing against him? So someone just happened to have a build that could beat him outright? <font color=#555>Ezekiel <font color=#AAA> [Talk]  02:11, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * If someone wants to get actual details on him they can go for it, but what we had was ridiculous and not even in the right place. <font color=#555>Ezekiel <font color=#AAA> [Talk]  06:48, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I added the Zoldark the Unholy's skill set. I thought I saw him use all of his skills but it was only 3 of them. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Nft Scroll down to Palawa -- mrguildboi (:  07:11, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Quotes?
Where is Nika's victory quote? Has no one lost to her? If no one's got it, I'll be sure to lose to her next time around (shouldn't be too hard for me :/). Also, in Eve's victory quote, is "embrance" our typo or ANet's?
 * need joko's victory quote too Roland Cyerni 16:54, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

easy /me 3 PVE skill win in no time
Summon Ruby Djinn during coundown. then Arcane Echo Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support and you would have 3 summons helpin u. if npc still alive, ursan form. ebon assassin does a good job of interrupting casters can barely get any cast off. bison maybe a bit tricky, first time i tried we both died at same time but counted as a win. timing kd's would be the key. ether signet when low on mana, i was r6ursan r5asura r2ebon

Opponent Order
After having played through the quest 10 times it was observed that the opponents appear in a characteristic position. ie some characters are always first and some are always second and so on. Characters that are always first are: Little Thom, Lo Sha, Kisai and The Great Zehtuka. Characters that are always second are: Orion, Xandra, Alesia and Vekk. Characters that are always third are: Warmaster Tydus, Zho, Lukas and Cynn. Characters that are always forth are: Morgahn, Koss, Headmaster Vhang, Razah, Ghostly Hero and Kahmu. Characters that are always fifth are: Argo Mhenlo, Talon Siverwing, Devona and Gwen. Magni the Bison is always the sixth and final character to fight. This information is especcially relevant if you are intending to unlock Xandra or Kahmu, get Zehtuka's Great Horn or get Zho's Journal to craft a black moa chick miniature.
 * Among the first is also Sogolon --Gimmethegepgun 21:40, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Joko can also be the 6th opponent. Cress Arvein [[Image:Cress sig.JPG]] 21:45, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Awesome research to be corrected twice so quickly. 10 times isn't enough to be using the word "always". Lord of all tyria 21:49, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Should this data be put in the "Known Opponents" area? --JonTheMon 21:51, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I can confirm that opponents do always show up in set rounds; you never see Mhenlo in the first round, Sogolon never show up in the fifth round, etc.
 * And yes, loat, I've done the tournament more then ten times through. ;D --[[image:GEO-logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  23:44, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * On that note, perhaps I can start writing down foes in the tournament as I play through (or someone else can). I'm pretty sure that all the opponents are "locked" into specific rounds, not just the ones listed above. Perhaps we could sort the opponent list by round, with enough data. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  23:47, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * All opponents are locked to particular rounds. I thought this was already documented somewhere but I cannot find it. Quizzical might know... I could also help generate such list since I've fought through it a lot also. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 02:34, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is documented actually. GWW has the opponents listed by round as well, already. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  20:32, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Wait...where did we put the info then? Also, GWW = GFDL licensing ugh [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 20:41, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Round_One:_Fight%21 Oh hai thar info. <font color="Green">Paradoxical <font color="Black">Ambiance  20:47, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Wow, it so does not belong there. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 21:08, 14 November 2008 (UTC)