User talk:RoseOfKali/Archive9

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Ok, so I'm not leaving quite yet
I panicked after all the "asap" bullshit (on my userpage rant), but it turns out that I simply can't be here for more than 180 days, or I will get a 3 year bar from coming back. As is, I am here now under illegal status, but I have tickets to leave on August 29th, and there should not be any consequences for overstaying this short. At least I didn't have to pay $2,400 for a next-day ticket, and I have some time to get ready, buy what I need, pack, say goodbye to everyone... (get some more sushi while I still can...)

I've researched internet providers out there, and it doesn't sound great, but it will be some kind of broadband, and it theoretically shouldn't take too long to set up, so I should have internet up in the first week of September, unless the older-than-my-mom phone cables aren't capable of carrying broadband, but I guess I'll have to find out once I get there.

P.S. I love how much everyone missed me already. ;) RoseOfKali 16:54, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I havend wished you luck yet for you fucked up unfair stuff. Hope everything will work out great for you :S -- F1Sig.png  † F1 ©  Talk  17:01, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks. :) RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 17:14, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


 * As long as the wiki is accessible.. ;) --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  17:36, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


 * What about GW and po... wait your a girl ...ny's -- F1Sig.png  † F1 ©   Talk  17:49, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


 * (ec) Hehe, I'm not having high hopes for the quality of the net, because just trying to reach them on the phone is an absolute nightmare, it connects like 10% of the time, even when the person is sitting there waiting for the call. So yeah, I guess GW and GW2 will probably have to wait until I come back... (not to say that GW2 will even come out before then O_o) But wiki should be fine.  Oh, and @TF1: I played the Japanese versions of Sexy Beach all the way through the expansion and unlocked all the outfits. ;) Don't make assumptions. :P (Oh, and the funnier part is that I got the ISOs from my husband-to-be. :D)  Also: "you're" and "nies." ;)  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 17:56, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


 * And "haven't" <3 --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  18:06, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Have fun in Ukraine! Don't join a gang, and wear clean underwear.  Additionally, this the towel that I used to defeat the great demon of Ur to gain my powers, it is for you, you will not need it hopefully, but always be prepared.--Łô√ë [[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg|Roar.]]îğá†ħŕášħ  18:27, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


 * ^_^ I might use it to beat the crap out of my ISP until the internet works properly, I'll even wet it beforehand. :P RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 19:52, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


 * can't you buy a thingy that is used for wireless internet all over the world no matter were you are? You know with the satellite or something? Or is that to expansive? -- F1Sig.png  † F1 ©  Talk  12:10, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The what thingy? RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 16:34, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * You can buy a USB thing or somthing that will give you internet no matter where you are, You know... No? any one help me out how is it called? -- F1Sig.png  † F1 ©  Talk  16:50, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * This, but portable. It uses cellphone towers, rather than satellites, though. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  16:54, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I've had one of those from Verizon once... All I can say is that it's a piece of crap for heavy use (like GW).  It's made for business people to check Emails and communicate on the go sort of thing, they're rather slow for calling themselves "broadband" and get interrupted a lot, along with costing a fortune compared to a similar speed landline.  They also don't have an "unlimited" option of the ones that I looked at here, wouldn't surprise me if it's the same thing everywhere.  One GW update and there goes my use for the month.  O_o  And I doubt they have those in Ukraine, not in the town I'm going to, anyway.  I'll keep it in mind.  Do they even exist on GSM networks?  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 17:00, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I would only suggest those as an absolute last resort, because they are just shit even compared to like dial-up. And that's from "reliable" companies like AT&T.
 * Also, I wish you luck, if that is something you believe in. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 17:10, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * AT&T? Reliable? Lol... :P I have a nerd friend who made the mistake of getting an iPhone, he curses that thing day and night, though loves it on the rare occasions that it does work properly. ^_^ Not worth the extra money for the "iPhone data plan." But yeah, I agree with the "last resort" part on these things, I only wish that it was like TF1 suggested, worldwide, alas it is not. And thanks for the good wishes.  Somehow it helps emotionally to share this... "problem" with others and just to know that people wish you well.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 17:20, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Good luck back there in Ukraine, I sincerely hope you won't die from boredom there (I'm close to dying there once every 2 years, simply because there's nothing to do there. And I go for 3 weeks only...) &mdash; DarK  19:05, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, thanks, that's my concern too... Maybe I'll take up teaching English or something, I'll see what I can do when I get there. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 03:50, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

NOW I'm leaving...
In about 11 hours, to be exact. Going to take 20.3 hours from initial departure to final destination. Bleh... Wish me Bon Voyage, and I'll catch up once I have internet set up. I hope it doesn't totally suck... RoseOfKali 05:20, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Bon Voyage :) or :( I'm really not quite sure :/ anyways have a good time if you can. Alatar the Red 05:45, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Best of luck. See you soon-ish :) --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  13:31, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Good luck Rose. Don't get dead. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 18:22, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Omg I forgot to say goodbye :S. Hope you still read this. Wish you luck and may every thing turn out great for you :| -- F1Sig.png  † F1 ©  Talk  22:02, September 7, 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, guys. I'm still working on getting internet at home, should have it sometime within the next two weeks.  It really feels like I went back in time with how things are here.  ^_^  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 14:03, September 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I got internet today, FINALLY, and played GW for about and hour and still no disconnects. Yay! :D Apparently my 3 week wait was a short one as far as getting internet set up is concerned.  Some people are still waiting after 3 months. O_o Lucky me. ^_^ RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 09:19, September 18, 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Welcome back in the land of the connected! What's your connection speed? -- ◄mendel► 10:14, September 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I haven't chosen a plan yet, on a 10-hour trial, but I will most likely go with a 1 MB.  It goes up to 8MB, but a 1 is like $12USD, so I can live with that.  The price goes up about 50% more each step for a 2MB, 4MB, and 8MB.  The sad part is that the average worker or retiree gets well under $100USD/month here.  I guess here is your last chance to convince me otherwise for the next month. :P I might upgrade later if I find this too slow, but I don't see myself downloading much of anything, and GW has been running fine for the last 2 hours.  Hell, I remember when I played it on dial-up and was ok until I walked into Sorrow's Furnace for the first time... ^_^ RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 10:36, September 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * 1 MB should be fine, internet speeds in Aus aren't much better in general. Jennalee 14:28, September 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd kill for more than 50kbps a night in my village. Random Time  15:24, September 18, 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to hear about your immigration troubles, and I hope things are somewhat bearable in the Ukraine. And congrats on the admin position! :) Jimbo321 10:23, October 1, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, the congrats are a bit early, nobody granted or denied the promotion, and the discussion is dead, even though I voiced my acceptance. As far as Ukraine, I'm getting used to it again, after all I grew up here.  The weather sucks; we keep losing utilities randomly (I was out of water for 2 days, no electricity yesterday >_<); I have to walk everywhere as I can't buy a car and it costs a fortune in bribes alone to get [read: buy] a driver's license; the food sucks not only because it's different, but also because the contents aren't regulated at all, so you really don't know what you're getting in the package; it's scary to walk on the streets because people get robbed in the middle of daylight and nobody helps because they're afraid to get shot/cut, and police doesn't give a crap so people don't even bother calling; driving rules might as well not exist, because driver's licenses are purchased and nobody cares about speed limits or yield signs or crosswalks, and there's next to no enforcement; I still can't get a job, unless I want to go into sales and sign responsibility for the entire contents of the store [no thanks...], and there are pretty much no other jobs to get without paying about a year's salary to actually get hired first with no guarantees that you'll even get to stay [yeah, that doesn't even make sense, but jobs are "purchased" O_o].  Meh, a lot of stuff is plain wrong here, but I live with the thought that I'm only here temporarily.  Fortunately, my internet works well, or I'd be banging my head against the wall to entertain myself. :P Though, Hulu doesn't work here at all, and Netflix only works through my husband's proxy, and that's too slow to actually stream a movie without buffering every 90 seconds or so. *sigh*  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 10:45, October 1, 2009 (UTC)
 * It sounds like you're making the best of a shitty situation. Hopefully, everything will get squared away and you'll be back where you belong before you know it. Have you tried something like Hotspot Shield for viewing vids etc? It makes you appear to have a US IP - I'm in Canada, and have used it in the past to access US-only streaming stuff. (Assuming your IP address is the problem, and the content isn't blocked by your local provider) Jimbo321 20:39, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

Custom Sig preview
So I have this suggestion, but no clue where to post it, so please move if you know better.

When you create a custom signature, there is no way to know what it will look like other than saving the changes and signing a page with it, or copying the sig code into another edit window and previewing it every time you make a change before saving the final result. While this works, it's not exactly "user friendly." Would it be possible to create a "Preview Custom Signature" button in the preferences page where you actually create your custom sig? I can't imagine this being very hard to do. RoseOfKali 05:30, 25 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The way to develop it is indeed to do it on a "sandbox" page that you preview until you get it right, then copy the signature over to your preferences.
 * The change you suggest makes sense, but since it would be a software change (it can't be done in Javascript easily as it involves going to the server for parsing the wikicode), you need to address the suggestion to Wikia. The best avenues for this would be Special:Contact and w:Forum:Watercooler. -- ◄mendel► 20:07, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Maybe I'll get around to pursuing this once I'm in Ukraine. :P RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 03:47, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Dervish Ancient armor/Male
decent? &mdash; Balistic 01:49, September 4, 2009 (UTC)


 * not really... tbh, I only just noticed too. Damn, let's hope Rose'll be back soon.--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir 18:23, September 6, 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, I'm not quite back yet, but I took a peek. In general, I'd say it's ok.  The images are a bit small, the shadows aren't on full quality, and some images aren't fully facing the sun.  Basically, it's good enough, but there's a little room for improvement if you feel up to it.  Also, they seem really misaligned with whitespace around some of them, and it's not part of the images themselves.  I have a hunch that it might have something to do with the whole no-helmet image deal and that the template is still not quite right, but I can't investigate this further right now.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 14:10, September 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * So what if shadows aren't on full - they don't affect the armor on display. Jennalee 14:26, September 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * No, but I didn't look closer if other settings that actually matter, like anti-aliasing, were on highest quality or not. And proper shadows just give the image a better appearance, as opposed to a gray blotch under your feet, making it look like you peed yourself. :P Now looking closer it appears that anti-aliasing is turned off, but the main problem is still that the images themselves are small, and it's hard to judge anything else.  A good goal is to have them at least 500px tall.  Along with that, all graphical settings should be set on highest quality, even if the game looks like a slideshow, unless it becomes unbearable.  This is still the best guide to follow, and it talks about settings and image size. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 15:47, September 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd say AA etc and everything else besides shadows is on full (personally, don't think grey blotch shadows detract from anything - a lot of games used to show shadows like that, no issues) for those, just the images are small so they could have been zoomed in far more when the screens were taken. Size difference on the template is from the pics being of significantly different dimensions. Jennalee 02:20, September 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, it's a matter of taste, but there's no reason not to have full quality on everything, unless it becomes problematic due to performance issues. Things that are mentioned in the guide I linked are required, but having other settings on highest is just more icing on the cake.  The pics can be different dimensions from each other (though this is not advised, it's best when they are all the same dimensions), but it looks like some of them are simply smaller than the template tries to make them, and cannot be stretched larger to fill the table cell and match the other images.  The very first image of the gallery is an example of that at only 136px wide, while it needs to be at least 150.  One of the head shots is also only 95x95, that's smaller than its own thumbnail.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 06:44, September 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * Reason being if you don't need a long shadow and footprints in the picture and miscellaneous other background stuff, then let's not include them for simplicity's sake, it's the armor you're looking to show off after all. Jennalee 21:19, September 20, 2009 (UTC)

GWW
Would you consider uploading some of the work you did to GWW also? Jennalee 08:04, September 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * Obviously, this is up to Rose of Kali to decide.


 * RoK's art submissions are among the top 5 reasons I tell ppls to come here instead of the official wiki. There, people seem satisfied with a single good-enough image. Here, a few people (Rose prominent among them) take the time to systematically upload images from different views, with different dyes, etc; here, it's easier to tell what things will look like in-game before you drop cash on armor or weapons.  &mdash; Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 09:24, September 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * Then I suppose it is fortunate that Jennalee asked Rose first. :) [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 09:32, September 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * I can do that. I'm just not sure what you mean exactly, since I've noticed that the armor galleries there are formatted quite differently.  If you give me an example of what you would like, I'll be happy to continue.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 09:33, September 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * Mainly armor gallery work - component images sections and headgear - you did a lot of armor galleries which are much better quality than exist on GWW, eg. Assassin Female Kurzick gallery, completely missing on GWW. Jennalee 10:36, September 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * Gotcha. Can you link me a complete gallery of what it should look like?  Then I'll check what I can improve.  I'm not familiar with the GWW format.  Also, if you like, you can borrow the images and upload them yourself with proper attribution, if you need some kind of formal permission let me know what I need to do.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 11:39, September 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * Format's very similar to the Guildwiki one. First row is overview - 4 images of dyed components, usually renders from Emily (GW:EN sets have not been completed as renders), showing armor from front, back, left and right. Icons for the armor have been added to the side. 2nd row is shots of the headgear - in front, back, left, right, top for monk scars etc, as appropriate for that armor set. Last row is component images in gray - chest and feet, arms and legs front and back as usual. Some galleries have been given special treatment for component images - generally the armor sets with long coats obscuring boots, as the use of the standard template defeats half the purpose of showing individual pieces to their fullest and where they cut off. Of note is that none of the galleries there are currently templated and instead, tables are written by hand. The galleries there need far more work than the ones here (READ: need a quality crusade).


 * An example of what it should turn out like: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gallery_of_female_necromancer_Ancient_armor


 * Emily's renders are done in the default colour of that armor before dye effects are overlaid (gray is considered such, though all armors now come gray dyed by default) and these renders are the ones used to document the armor sets in general. They are of much higher resolution than you can get ingame while being on the same character you are taking screens of armor from.


 * If you want to help, I'd prefer if you're the one uploading your own work, since it it yours after all. Jennalee 16:17, September 26, 2009 (UTC)


 * One done, a nightmare to go... Holy cow, no wonder I've never used GWW for armor, it sucks even worse than I thought. O_O *rolls up sleeves* [Well ok, I'm probably gonna do this sometime later when I'm really bored, but be sure it bugs me enough that I will get to it eventually.] RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 16:43, September 26, 2009 (UTC)


 * It's not just the armor... Image quality in general on GWW sucks donkey balls and really needs some TLC, so if you're really bored and have some spare time, eat your heart out :) Jennalee 12:30, September 27, 2009 (UTC)
 * She started yesterday I think, looks a lot better in those galleries she's changed. Kurtan 12:37, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Way to go. Don't mind Wyn too much, I've already gotten up her nose, I can try spare you some of the pain of arguing with her. Jennalee 12:53, September 27, 2009 (UTC)
 * Haha, don't worry about it. I think Wyn and I are a lot alike, so we can figure something out. :) 225 new armor images for you guys, I think I'm done for a little bit. :P Though I'm planning to re-do all the necro headgear eventually, the current ones aren't perfect and some of them don't have all the sides, but much better than anything that was there before anyway. :P RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 17:35, September 27, 2009 (UTC)

Icons
IMO just take the png format .dat extracts from the other place <_< Jennalee 12:26, September 29, 2009 (UTC)
 * O_o? English, please. ^_^ RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 12:31, September 29, 2009 (UTC)
 * Other wiki - you'd get the same result if you extracted them yourself, and as with screenshots, I'd suppose fair use - if you separated the icons from screenshots perfectly, you'd end up with near the same. Jennalee 15:05, September 29, 2009 (UTC)
 * Uh... What icons? What screenshots? *confused* Do you mean to "borrow" the collectible png's from GWW? RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 15:13, September 29, 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, they're icons. Jennalee 15:39, September 29, 2009 (UTC)

Shameless advertisement and Giga ripoff
Come and take a look at my elite skill contest!--El_Nazgir 16:28, September 29, 2009 (UTC)

Minipet PC
Apparently, there's soon going to be something even rarer than a Kanaxai... not counting the ones that have been deleted, of course. --Macros 15:41, October 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I saw... Any ideas on a submission? XD And anyway, there were only 27 Kanaxais, and there will be 20 guards, however some Kanaxais were deleted due to the infamous armbrace dupe, and most of them are dedicated at this point anyway or belong to people who don't appear in public much (I've only seen one Kanaxai in all of my time playing GW), so for now, the guards will be more available/public than Kanaxais. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 15:53, October 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * Too bad we'll never know how many Kanaxai's are left, because then we could say for sure which was the rarest. But to be honest, I doubt there will be any discernible price difference between them. --Macros 22:03, October 3, 2009 (UTC)


 * surely one of us can beat some of the honorable mentions. As Rose knows, I am terribly with images. However, I'm happy to critique (or cheerlead!) for anyone who wants to enter (hint:RoK; hint:Giga). (I'm not a fan of the honorables, but gotta say the contest winner was brilliant. That actually looks more to me like the almost grown-up Gwen I imagined than does GW:EN's Gwen.)  &mdash; Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 04:05, October 4, 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, For a Rurik costume I would need at least Say, About 12m^2 tan leather, some stuffing, sowing machine obv. Fake goatee, green gems, the sword might be difficult.  But I can just forge a helix with holes, and rig it with some gas, and then a lighter at the base will get the chain effect.  Shield is easy, peasy squeesy.  Ok, time to get to work.--Łô√ë [[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg|Roar.]]îğá†ħŕášħ is hosting a Card Creation Contest!  05:22, October 4, 2009 (UTC)
 * It would be cool to see a non-suicidal Rurik in RL. I imagine some holiday themed transmogrifications&trade; of GuildWars &reg;&copy; images would do nicely, too.  &mdash; Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 06:01, October 4, 2009 (UTC)
 * Hehe, I already have an idea for mine, and it's not a picture or a costume. Gotta go buy some supplies. XD  I can enter from Ukraine, right?  It's geographically the center of Europe...  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 08:43, October 4, 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh...they didn't define, Europe! (Hardly surprising, given how many geology and geography professors have trouble doing that.) I suspect they mean The European Union, b/c of the strong reciprocal copyright enforcement agreements. It's probably worth opening up a support ticket now; with luck, someone in their legal department has already figured this out. BTW: it says, legal residents of... Do you qualify as "US" from that stand-point? (I'm not clear on your technical status.) Alternatively, your hubby could submit something. What his is yours and vice-versa (in most US states), so there shouldn't be problems on that score. (Even less if he plops down $10 at Amazon for his own, new copy of Prophecies.)


 * Regardless, I hope you do submit something (as I have faith that your entry would do well). And, after the contest is over, I hope you'll share it with us (if ANet doesn't agree with my prediction).  &mdash; Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 09:17, October 4, 2009 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, I do not qualify as a legal resident of the US, or I wouldn't be in Ukraine right now. My husband has a copy of Prophecies that he stopped playing a long time ago (right around the time he got me hooked on it >_<), and it's been my faithful mule since then.  I'll ask Gaile about this, and in the worst case, I'll have my hubby submit the pics of my as of now conceptual creation, the only downside in doing so is that it won't have my name on it, but I'm willing to make that "sacrifice."  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 18:43, October 4, 2009 (UTC)

Disclaimer
Ok, I see you have updated your userboxes based on my comment, I hope out of a joke and are in no way offended by it. On my behalf, I would point out that: Ah well, just to let you know .. :) -- -- ( talk ) 09:59, October 7, 2009 (UTC)
 * I said "seems a bit" not "is very"
 * Hardheaded also has a positive meaning "Having or indicating an awareness of things as they really are"
 * I know that. :P I am not offended at all, as it's true, and I don't take it to be a bad thing. I'm freely admitting that yes, I am hard-headed if I'm convinced about something, and the only way to change my mind is to convince me that I'm wrong, which shouldn't be hard to do if I am in fact wrong. ;) Your comment just made me think of the Ward Against Harm icon, and I thought "why not." I haven't played my ele for a while anyway, so I don't really "play with fire" anymore. ^_^ RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 10:37, October 7, 2009 (UTC)

Thanks (x2)
Hiya, thanks for the welcome and also for helping while I was unable to do so myself (I was on UnAnswers at the time and kept getting orange messages every time I opened a page :P). I'd also like to apologize for the way (spirit?) in which we parted and wish you the best for your RfA, etc. Glad you have regular internet 'n' stuff - GuildWiki wouldn't be the same without you. A F K When Needed 19:12, October 11, 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks. :) I'm glad there are no hard feelings left between us. Glad to see you back. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 22:59, October 11, 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry about this. Well, no I'm not...
A F K When Needed 16:23, October 12, 2009 (UTC)


 * Lol? Damn, I still want that tonic... >_< RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 18:14, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * * shrugs* A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 18:27, October 12, 2009 (UTC)

Doing the right thing wrong
I have a comment on these edits that have you enforcing policies: [][][]. You are solely relying on the authority of the policy in your posts. That works badly with people who have a problem with authority -- and those are the ones most likely to violate policies, too! I would ask you to rely more on explaining to them why what they do is bad for the wiki (and how to do it better), and to only use the policy as a "backup" argument. It helps the offenders to understand the policy better and how it relates to what they did. Use the inherent authority of your own knowledge how and why wikis work they way they do! -- ◄mendel► 11:04, October 15, 2009 (UTC)


 * Shouldn't that be explained in the policy itself, instead of expecting an explanation every time a policy is mentioned? What's the point of having the policy shortcuts, then? They shouldn't need any explanation.
 * GW:SIGN, which I linked after asking to "de-animate" the user's sig, clearly says "No animated images are permitted due to the visual disruption they cause within text pages." GW:1RV is also rather clear if you actually care to read it. When I first started on this wiki and got into a revert problem, nobody warned me about this policy until AFTER the suspension, and I didn't even know the suspension was temporary, I thought I was banned for good!
 * I linked the policy for informational value to the person if they care to read it, not in an offensive or authoritative format, just as an fyi. I also think that reading a policy has a greater effect than reading someone's "babbling" that can be considered merely an opinion of the writer alone and thus ignored.
 * I don't see how the "NPA land" comment was any kind of "enforcing."
 * And what happened with "not holding people's hands, but giving them the tools to learn what they need?" RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 15:32, October 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * I didn't suggest not mentioning the policy. It is good to do that. For the rest of my reply, I could quote form what I wrote above. -- ◄mendel► 21:10, October 15, 2009 (UTC)


 * You didn't answer my question. Why should there be a need to explain a policy that has an entire article explaining itself?  I prefer not to automatically assume that I'm dealing with an authority defiant individual who doesn't care to read what was handed to him in the link.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 23:38, October 15, 2009 (UTC)


 * You don't have to explain the entire policy. You don't have to assume that peeps are authority adverse (or authority averse). Rather, assume that folks care mostly about the content of their post or contribution; giving them a content-related reason for following guidelines or policies makes it (a) more likely that they will read it; (b) more likely that they will post again; and (c) more likely that they see the comment as helpful rather than critical. More flies with honey etc. In my opinion, this provides new tools without hand-holding.


 * I strongly believe that relying solely on authority in pointing out an error (or even an intentional violation) is slapping hands and withholding tools.


 * What about, "hey, did you realize that flashing sigs were against the rules (because they cause visual disruption)? Would you please update yours accordingly?"  &mdash; Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 00:21, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * IMO, there is an acceptable spectrum of responses invoking a policy. On one end is "This violates policy GW:NOPE". On the other end is a carefully laid out explanation of how the edit disrupts the wiki or is against established norms. While Rose might lean towards one end, and Mendel the other, both, imo, are ok. One might be more tailored to certain situations, but I don't see a clear wrong either way. --JonTheMon 04:38, October 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not distinguishing right from wrong. I'm talking about succeeding at the implied goal of encouraging continued participation from people who (more likely than not) follow the guidelines. For me, acceptable is too low a standard.


 * I would encourage those interested in the long-term health of the wiki to consider how someone might react to receiving a notice of violation. Shouldn't we assume that the poster intended their actions to make things better? And, if that's true, aren't they owed a response that is polite, reasonable, and helpful?


 * (And, if we believe their actions were intended to disrupt or hurt, then let's call 'em on it directly, but no less politely.)  &mdash; Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 07:30, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * "hey, did you realize that flashing sigs were against the rules (because they cause visual disruption)? Would you please update yours accordingly?" could be viewed by some as condescending as well, if you guys really want to get into the picking of nits, especially as text loses the nuances of verbal conversation. Additionally, if you don't want to rely on authority, why did you change the link text to "rules?"  (Maybe this isn't as simple as you two are making it out to be?)  You simply can't fully anticipate how someone will react to enforcement; you can only be reasonable, polite, and point them to more information.  At worst, Rose may have come off at slightly terse.  Also, do the policies themselves rely solely on authority; do they not explain why they exist?  So, can pointing to policies that rely on both authority and reason be relying on authority alone, especially since Rose's authority is technically the same as any other non-admin editor?  (Admittedly, her perceived authority may certain be different given her long experience and volume of edits, but by pointing to the policies, she isn't relying on that either.  She also bothered to to make the extra keystrokes required to type "Thanks" as well, so politeness seems intended to me.)
 * I'm sorry, but it almost seems like we're saying "remember to assume good faith, but don't actually assume they have any motivation to put any effort into understanding the wiki" (as in the kind of motivation essentially required of good editors in the first place). That seems almost a contradiction to me, and I fail to see any desirability in such a view.  It's one thing to be open, but another thing entirely to assume that we can't expect a certain minimal level of motivation from new editors.
 * Also, why is the first edit linked here even remotely an issue? How much was GW:NPA already explained in that situation previously?  Can anyone really tell me that a short post that implies someone may be on treading on the line is inferior to some repeated explanation that could likely be viewed as insulting the user's intelligence?  I can at least see that the other two may be a little too likely to be interpreted as terse, but given the context of the first, her approach is not necessarily inferior to others, unless we're suggesting that dead horses really should be beaten mercilessly (which is beginning to happen here as well).  Nwash  [[Image:User-Nwash-Eyes.png|link=User talk:Nwash]] 08:33, October 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * Nwash makes some good points. I agree that my example isn't all that much better, e.g. changing the link to rules was a terrible idea (not at all what I was trying to get across). However, I wouldn't want my poor implementation to mean my point is missed: we veterans are not always as reasonable, polite, or helpful as we could be.


 * Wikis are complex organisms. Even well motivated people are going to need help to understand all the broad strokes, never mind the nuances. I'm assuming peeps want to do the right thing, but they are primarily motivated by wanting to contribute content and have fun. That doesn't mean that they lack motivation to learn guidelines; it means it's not the primary reason people make their first or tenth post. If they make a mistake or flagrantly violate a rule on the 9th post, I want them to stay motivated enough to make #10 and, in doing that, learn what they did that was inappropriate.


 * However, I have done exactly what I promised myself I wouldn't do: I hijacked someone else's topic for my own pet peeve. Mendel's original point was ... well, rather than risk me paraphrasing it, I point us all to the top of the thread.
 * Worse, I also did something else I promised I wouldn't do: I meddled in someone else's business. So, Rose I apologize twice to you. I had good intentions and yet, here I am, adding another brick on the road to heck with 'em.


 * I do think the hijacked topic is worth continuing, so I hope we can find a more prominent place to discuss whether there's something more we can do to help encourage contributors even as we ensure that folks stay within guidelines. And whether that's even a worthwhile goal.  &mdash; Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 10:58, October 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * We all work in different ways. You have yours, I have mine. I will not babysit people and explain things to them like they are 10 years old, because I don't like when that is done to me either. As far as I'm concerned, I'm treating people better than I was treated when I first started editing here, and I am not doing anything wrong, simply different from what mendel or some other people like to see or do themselves. If someone gets "scared off" by a simple link to a policy, do you really think they would have been a meaningful editor on the wiki? Seriously? I don't. Because if someone has the slightest desire to continue and become a useful editor as opposed to just a reader, they will read the linked material and make sense of it on their own or ask if something is unclear, without being treated like little children. I don't think of this wiki as recreation for someone to come and have fun, that's what vandals do. Volunteering is a little bit different, it actually takes effort, while still enjoying what you do (or you wouldn't volunteer in the first place). This is a community effort, and if someone doesn't want to follow the rules, then you're not going to change their mind by wrapping the link in a condescending lecture on morale and "for the good of all wiki." You are trying to impose on me your way of doing things when there is no need for it stated anywhere else except by yourself, and I'm really getting tired of it. You are free to oppose me case-by-case, but don't come back to my talkpage with a watchlist of my actions telling me what I did wrong, when there was no wrongdoing to begin with. I really feel like you are breathing down my neck and picking on everything for a while now, when others are free to do what they want with little or no word. I'm not going to point names or cases unless you think it's necessary, as I really don't want to get into slinging crap at other people for past actions. I will just say that you are doing to me exactly what you try to blame me for doing to others. I also know now that mendel's mind was set from the moment he saw my RfA. It just seems like he didn't want to deny it on his own immediately after putting forth two nomination of his own, as that would look like favoritism. That's fine. Bureaucracy is dirty no matter where you are, play it like it is. I'm not cut out for your idea of admin, and that's fine by me, I will not change. You do not need to try and prove to everyone else that I'm evil or something, and you didn't need to "recruit" anyone off-wiki to come and express your views on the RfA. You don't need to come up with lists of "stuff Rose did wrong" here and there to justify your decision, after all you yourself said it's solely your decision, regardless of public support. I have a lot of respect for what many people do on this wiki, but I now realize that some of them were only successful by staying out of the way and doing their thing quietly, while others flourished only because they share the same view as the "elite" so-to-speak. Feel free to close my RfA, I'm tired of this circus and don't want to have anything to do with it any longer. I know mendel will come back and say that I interpreted everything wrong, etc., but that is exactly what is being done to me by attaching motivations and intentions to where there were none. This is just how I see things now, and right or wrong, I don't want to deal with it anymore. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 12:25, October 16, 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) I find coming up with a suitable response here to not be easy, it may take me some time. -- ◄mendel► 22:23, October 16, 2009 (UTC)