User talk:Entropy/Archive 25

Dzagonur Bastion bonus
The edit log says you deleted the strategy for the bonus for that mission, and I'm rather puzzled as to why. Have you found a way to get two heroes and the whispers groups to hold two bombards essentially forever but neglected to give the details? That you say the bonus is hard with just henchmen and heroes seems to imply otherwise, as does your claim that the heroes don't handle splitting very well (that's what hero flags are for, isn't it?). If you haven't, then is there some reason why the strategy you posted isn't flagrantly inferior to the one you deleted? Nothing in the previous strategy struck me as exploitive, and the only thing that seems at all illegitimate about the old explanation is using a ritualist in a Nightfall mission--and you didn't delete that part.

I tried the previous strategy twice today, and it still reliably works with just henchmen and heroes. Just for fun, after clearing three bosses the second time, I left to eat dinner, leaving Master of Whispers and Razah to hold the bombard as long as they could. More than half an hour later, they still had it. It's possible that you misread the previous explanation and thus didn't actually try it. If you ever have to help out Master of Whispers and Razah apart from positioning them and the whispers groups before any fighting takes place, you're doing it wrong. Indeed, the entire point of the previous strategy was that you could set two heroes at the start and then ignore that bombard for the rest of the mission. I don't think they can quite hold one bombard forever, but in twelve tries, they've held it long enough to kill the other three bosses without needing any additional help every single time. Quizzical 02:37, 29 December 2007 (UTC)


 * One thing before I start: Drop the attitude, please. I haven't heard such presumptious language since the goddamned Builds section was removed. Your work isn't gone forever, and you are not assuming good faith when you make claims like "you didn't read it", "you didn't try it", "you didn't understand it", "it works for me" (so you automatically /fail nub), "your strategy is flagrantly inferior" (burden of proof lies with the accuser)...etc. I have every right to edit any page that I want without being bombarded with insults over such a trivial issue as a walkthrough rewrite for quality control. Excuse the pun.


 * I didn't delete it. I just rewrote it. The original bonus was a load of crap in terms of being presentable as an encyclopedic entry. It had such errors as referring to oneself ("I", "I'll"), awkward things like "It helps to have a Restoration ritualist, I'll call him Razah, but it doesn't have to be Razah, it can be a secondary Ritualist with 12 in Restoration" (W/Rt, R/Rt, D/Rt, P/Rt, A/Rt lols? People are that stupid, trust me), "Bone Fiends are bad because they trigger Whirling Defense" (wtf? you have no melee attackers anyways, who cares - the point is that they are too expensive, you want defensive minions), a comment that belonged on the talkpage ("The above advice is very good...") although RT fixed that and it wasn't yours, and other problems which made the whole thing unreadable and worthy of a tag for higher standard of quality.


 * Now, I'm not saying that the advice itself was bad - as you can see, I left in some of it, such as taking the westernmost boss first and using a Resto Rit. It wasn't the content itself that I had issues with, just the way the content was worded. In my opinion, it could not be easily fixed in one sitting, so to save the article for now I rewrote it with a similar but slightly different strategy, which I also know works for any half-competent player. It doesn't work on Hard Mode, but neither does yours quite frankly. I can work on improving the previous walkthrough and I will merge the two of them together once it's done...basically what I did was just a temporary measure.


 * Heroes and Henchmen suck at splits, and the flagging system is good but inadequate for many situations. Why? Because you have to manually control everything; placing flags through the overhead map (the radar) is risky when you need precision placement (ie right next to, or behind, the bombards); H/H don't understand how they need to let the bombard handle most enemies (they will chase them); H/H don't understand that it is very important to stand near the bombard to prevent capture or initiate recapture. For all these reasons, plus the fact that humans make this mission a joke for Masters, the bonus is not easy with H/H. If you're a prO at H/H soloing, then it's a different story, but most players are not. "Hard" is a subjective term anyways, and if that offends you then it could be changed to "not easy shit the same way Consulate Docks is" or something. But that seemed a little long.


 * This is the first mission in Nightfall where a solo H/H player will run into real difficulties, a true test of their mastery of the AI. In previous missions, you could keep the entire team together, and little more than Move, Kill, Repeat was necessary for success. You didn't have to guard anything or split the team. Basically, this is the Eternal Grove of Nightfall, though much less stressful. It is a step up in difficulty if you want that Masters. Hell, even Gate of Madness or Jennur's Horde are an easier bonus than this one in terms of H/H mastery needed...and most players use humans or runs for those. It's because enemies rush you in this mission, and you don't have the luxury to sit back and leisurely meander your way through unless you actually brought 3-4 Heroes to leave behind. Good luck with firepower in that case, though...you have, what? Devona, Cynn, Herta? But then you've got no healing. Even in the best case, a human healer and then taking Khim, that is a weak team which will have trouble with a speedy kill.


 * It is not necessary to hold the bombards indefinitely; you are a bad player if you need that much time to take out one of the bosses. If you want to hold two bombards forever, then you can use one Minion Master and two Restoration Ritualists (or the other way round). However you have the firepower problem as mentioned above. If you happened to be running an A/E Locust's Conjure build, that is no problem. But it would not work for all classes.


 * You could attempt to hold one bombard with an MM and another bombard with a Rit, but that won't last "indefnitely" (dinner 30min after three bosses dead? Zomg, you left when there was only one bombard to defend! What an accomplishment!). Unless you're going to run some crazy N/Rt split build with healing and minions together (not specified in your strategy), the MM group will have problems, since there will be no healer. You could compensate by giving that group two sets of Whispers. But, that leaves the Ritualist group with only one Whispers group. And as you well know, they are completely inadequate for anything but being a distraction and bodies. So, the Rit group would have no offense but the bombards, and the MM group would have no healers so any lost Whispers would be a huge blow. Either way, one of those groups is likely to be overwhelmed if you sat back and did absolutely nothing. I don't believe there is a strategy out there, anywhere, that lets you hold two of the bombards truly indefinitely from the very start of the mission.


 * Your strategy involves leaving behind two Heroes and then going to take out a boss. At the basic level, that's exactly what I advocate also. So to be honest, I am not sure where the ferocity of your disagreement comes from. For both of us, we're assuming that the player has some idea of what they are doing, so they kill one boss quickly and immediately and that saves a bombard. After that it really doesn't matter what you do, to be honest...you can go straight across and kill the other three bosses, you can play it safe and go help one of the bombard groups, you can park your team next to one of the others and take a break...once one of the bombards is taken care of, the mission becomes a joke, and strategy becomes almost irrelevant.
 * "Indeed, the entire point of the previous strategy was that you could set two heroes at the start and then ignore that bombard for the rest of the mission." (emphasis added) - Now you are puzzling me. The word "That" implies a singular, one bombard. Are you saying that you should park the MM and the Rt on the same bombard? If you are, then...I'm confused because that is exactly what I said to do also. And you are implying that if you follow your strategy, you can ignore one bombard essentially forever. You can take care of another bombard by immediately eliminating a boss. But then what about the third bombard? From what I'm reading, it will only be guarded by Whispers groups. Those won't last very long at all...hardly indefinitely. So either way, your strategy or mine, the player is required to quickly eliminate bosses so that the bombard held by the Whispers is not overwhelmed. (or, help them out and then advance, either way)


 * If our strategies are so similar, why are we having issues here? I am curious as to your imput. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:19, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry to offend you. I'm well aware that my people skills aren't very good, and was (and still am) rather confused as to what your edit was about.  I did not say that you didn't read it; rather, that you may not have understood it, which certainly seems to be the case from your lengthy reply here.  (And thanks for the reply, by the way.)


 * A rewrite of the strategy that was given is not the issue at hand here. The crux of my strategy was to have two heroes hold one bombard indefinitely, so that you can ignore that bombard for the duration of the mission.  To delete that is to delete the strategy, regardless of what other incidental details are left or rearranged.  You change the strategy to say "have the Whispers groups and your Heroes hold two of the bombards" (emphasis added), but leave no details on how to do that.  If they're holding two bombards rather than one, it's fundamentally a strategy totally different from the one I used.  Unless the whispers groups and heroes can hold at least one of those bombards essentially forever without any attention from any players, it's not at all similar to what was posted before.


 * You say in the article that henchmen and heroes "don't handle splits very well", and above essentially reiterate that. In some cases, that is true.  For the strategy I wrote for Dzagonur Bastion, whatever flaws the AI has regarding splits, they aren't relevant to this mission.  The simple AI of attacking when mobs come close and just standing there when they don't works beautifully in this particular case.


 * Granted, for a player who has no idea what to do, Dzagonur Bastion is much harder than anything in Nightfall that precedes it. But the strategy I posted takes takes of the confusion of managing heroes out of it.  You flag two heroes before combat starts, and never have to flag anything again for the duration of the mission, essentially treating the third hero as an extra henchman (but with a better build)--and with no need to flag henchmen at all, at any point in the mission.  Once combat starts, the hero management is well shy of what I use for, say, Pogahn Passage, let alone something more complicated like Ruins of Morah.


 * Above you say that "you don't have the luxury to sit back and leisurely meander your way through unless you actually brought 3-4 Heroes to leave behind". But the entire point of my strategy was that, after killing the first boss, you do have the luxury to take your time, while leaving behind only two heroes.  A group of six may be a little short on damage, but it's adequate to spike down and kill one boss eventually.  Indeed, if a boss was taking too long, you could go kill just one margonite before returning to save the center bombard, and have enough time to do that repeatedly, and eventually only have to fight a boss by itself.  I would typically take Mhenlo, Kihm, and Sogolon for healing, or drop one of them if I could do some healing myself.  The other slots were for single-target damage dealers.  I used the strategy posted for a run with myself playing as every single class, using no secondary profession skills and no pve-only skills except for Sunspear Rebirth Signet and sometimes whatever Sunspear skill was associated with my primary class.  All but two of those were with only henchmen and heroes; for the other two (I do not recall which classes those were), I helped out some people who were complaining in the chat that the mission was impossible.


 * As for what the leaving Razah and Master of Whispers to hold a bombard for half an hour build was about, the point is, they can hold a bombard with the previous strategy that long without any help whatsoever. An equivalent test would have been to kill the first boss, then sit at the center bombard for half an hour killing whatever Kournans come there, but offering absolutely no additional help at the east bombard.  The reason I didn't do it that way was that being able to go AFK was easier.


 * You're correct that a player shouldn't need half an hour to clear the mission. But my point is that if a player has half an hour if he needs it, he has however much time he actually needs.  Neither your strategy nor the one that mine replaced a couple months ago allows a player anywhere remotely near that much time.  A player may not need well over half an hour, but if he only has two minutes before a bombard falls without his help, that can make master's reward awfully hard.  My experience with trying to get whispers groups and heroes to hold multiple bombards was that they don't buy you very much time--which is why I abandoned that approach.


 * "Are you saying that you should park the MM and the Rt on the same bombard?" Yes, yes, that is exactly my point.  "But then what about the third bombard? From what I'm reading, it will only be guarded by Whispers groups."  Less than that, actually.  The center bombard is guarded by nothing initially, save the three guards substantially in front of it.  After killing the warrior boss, there is plenty of time to come back and save the center bombard before it falls entirely.  From then on, you have to defend that one bombard.  But that means you can leave to go kill a boss, and when you return, only have to save one bombard.


 * Personally, I find it very easy to defend one bombard, if I can ignore all others. What I find much harder is to defend two bombards at once, or rather, to have to defend two bombards while you're leaving to go kill a boss.  If heroes and whispers groups can't hold their bombards for as long as necessary without any help from the player, then the player effectively has to defend those bombards himself or else lose them.  If you're assuming that the heroes are going to die after a while, then even after one boss is dead (indeed, after two bosses are dead), you're still stuck defending two bombards yourself.  If you only have to defend one bombard yourself, on the other hand, you can leave it when you have full control over it and no mobs are on the way, and not need to make it back until it is a small sliver away from being fully captured and destroyed.  If you're defending two bombards yourself, you don't have that luxury:  the perfect time to leave one bombard might be a rather bad time to abandon the other.  Furthermore, if both bombards are near capture when you make it back, if you save one, the other gets destroyed.


 * One final side point. You say above ""Bone Fiends are bad because they trigger Whirling Defense" (wtf? you have no melee attackers anyways".  Well, actually you do have melee attackers:  Vabbi Guards.  The reason you don't want ranged minions is that whirling defense will damage (and perhaps kill) the Vabbi Guards that you need to help Master of Whispers and Razah defend the bombard.  For that matter, the point of having a ritualist (as opposed to a monk) healer there is that Recuperation and Life heal all non-spirit allies, not just party members or a targeted ally.  That gets Razah to heal the Vabbi Guards and Disciples of Secrets quite a bit, whereas a monk hero won't heal them at all.  Quizzical 09:14, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry bout that - my talkpage gets so full that I lose track of things a lot...I was going to respond to this straightaway but didn't "discover" it until just now. :(


 * I think we both started out a bit overly emotional in our debate, so I am glad we have both calmed down a bit. Let me try to explain...On GuildWiki, we have a certain style and formatting for our articles, as well as a standard of quality which we try to uphold. You have seen a dictionary or encyclopedia, of course, haven't you? Wikis ideally aim to be like that - detailed, complete, and professional-looking. The strategy that you had written out was detailed and complete, but it was not professional-looking. So, I replaced it (you are correct, it is not exactly true to say "rewrite") in an effort to raise the quality of the article. I was planning on fixing up your strategy, so that it was exactly the same but more professional-looking...however, it seemed like it would take some time, more than I had at the moment, so I decided to temporarily put up a replacement strategy. It is complete and professional-looking, but I guess less detailed. I had only planned for it to be temporary, though, so I thought no one would notice...anyway.


 * Your strategy plants two Heroes on the east bombard with all the Whispers, so it is heavily fortified. This leaves the West bombard unguarded, but you take care of that quickly. However, the center bombard is...empty. "Indeed, if a boss was taking too long, you could go kill just one margonite before returning to save the center bombard, and have enough time to do that repeatedly, and eventually only have to fight a boss by itself." - Here is my issue. With your strategy, it doesn't matter what happens to the center bombard...only a few Vabbian Guards are left to defend it, and since you are engaging the center Margonites, it will not be captured if you are paying any attention at all and run back in time enough.


 * That's all well and good...you can completely ignore the eastern bombard (it's impenetrable). However, depending on how much killing power you pack, this stragegy involves an unnecessary amount of running back and forth and checking the capture status bar. Our definitions of "extra time" are different. You have an infinite amount of time to save the third bombard...but you will be wasting more time doing the second bombard. You kill one or two Margonites, run to save the bombard, run back and kill some Margonites, save the bombard...repeat...and eventually you can kill the boss and move on. But you always have to defend the center bombard, constantly.


 * In my opinion, while that is probably the "safer" route (unless you are really, really slow on the first boss), I think that you do not need to fortify the eastern bombard with so many troops. Let me explain the crux of my strategy:
 * You flag Master of Whispers and Razah (or maybe Xandra would be easier to get) to the east bombard, and send one group of Whispers with them. As soon as MoW gets some minions up, they'll be fine for the rest of the mission. It is more than enough time.
 * You flag the remaining two groups of Whispers to the center bombard.
 * The rest of the party (one Hero, four Hench, and you) defends the western bombard initially, then moves out to spike the western Warrior boss.
 * ...As you can see, this is the same as your strategy, but I simply split the Whispers differently.


 * Okay. So at this point, you have a choice - you can go kill more bosses if you wish, or if the center Whispers seem like they are in trouble you can run back and help them. Generally, you should have enough time to take out the next boss (center left, Monk) before you need to run back. This is assuming you didn't take spellcasters for damage, because he uses Spell Breaker...otherwise you'll need enchant removal or you are screwed. Devona, Sogolon, Khim, Mhenlo would probably work, although Mhenlo is a trashy healer...but you need that Hero slot.


 * The center bombard will be guarded by two groups of Whispers and whatever Vabbian Guards are near it. These allies will make it so that you spend less time running back to save the center bombard. They can last longer than the Vabbian Guards alone (duh). The eastern bombard with the MM, Rit, and one Whispers group is fine, and unless something catastrophic happened (like - all your minions die from a single AoE spike - but that is extremely unlikely) they will last as long as you need.


 * Your Heroes hold one bombard. The Whispers and Vabbian Guards kinda hold another. So I guess you are holding two bombards. But, it works out fine and involves the same amount of running, if not less, than your strategy. It is perhaps a bit more harrowing, but that's part of the thrill isn't it...for a moderately to skilled player, this strategy should save them time. And it is definitely faster with humans, when you can really get a spike going.


 * The only differences in our strategies, as you can see, is that we differ on the number of Whispers groups to assign to the east bombard. That's all. After that we both run back and forth, killing bosses and saving the center as needed.


 * Technical stuff...Flagging is iffy because you have to set them just right. Not too far behind, not too far ahead, not too far to the left or right. Just close enough to take shelter near the bombard's firing range. To be able to place the flags safely in this manner, you really need to get a clear visual on them. And the only way to do that is to run closer to the bombards. You can't do it through the radar or mini-map, it is too vague. But, the Kournans and Margonites don't wait while you place flags - they will start coming, even when you don't have the Whispers all set up. That is what I remember, and if they changed the mission to allow you real prep time, then please forgive my ignorance.


 * Pogahn Passage and Ruins of Morah require 0 Hero management whatsoever, so I'm not sure what you're talking about there. Those are very simple Follow the Marker - Kill Enemies - Keep NPC Alive missions. Morah especially - that is all about Spike Down Boss Quickly.


 * I said "you have no melee attackers" because your Heroes will be an MM, a Rt, and some kind of spiker who can take care of block anyways (or otherwise hit through Aegis). Whirling Defense is hardly lethal, and it is unlikely that all ten Bone Fiends would target the same enemy Ranger at the same time. I also thought the Vabbian Guards only stayed at the center bombard. In any case, that would just give you another body to use...and to be honest, ten Bone Fiends plus two or three Whispers groups and a Rit Healer...well. No enemies stand a chance against that amount of firepower. Still, we both agree that Bone Fiends are bad to use here. For you it is because of Whirling Defense. For me it is energy management and the fact that you're defending, not attacking, from the bombard.


 * I'm pretty well aware of the Ritualist thing (never disagreed with you there), and that's why I left that unchanged. Although I am not sure I agree that Monks won't heal the allies - they do, but just not very often, especially in battle. Once in a while they do seem to take an interest in them by removing a Hex or something. But Ritualist heal-all spirits force the healing, so they are just better. Also more efficient when healing Minions. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 09:32, 31 December 2007 (UTC)


 * "You have seen a dictionary or encyclopedia, of course, haven't you?" Sure, but a typical dictionary doesn't make much of a how-to guide, which is what this bonus section is supposed to be.  When I tried to learn Dzagonur Bastion a couple months ago, the wiki walkthrough and bonus on it were pretty useless.  It took me eight tries to get master's reward, finally coming up with the strategy I posted.  I'd much prefer a clearly explained strategy that reliably works, even if the writing style is bad, rather than a professionally written strategy that often doesn't work, though obviously, a well-written article with a strategy that reliably works is better than either.  I don't object to trying to clean up the writeup, but I do object going from one clearly explained strategy that reliably works to zero.  I'm not against having more than one strategy posted.


 * "You kill one or two Margonites, run to save the bombard, run back and kill some Margonites, save the bombard...repeat...and eventually you can kill the boss and move on." It has never come to that for me, even when I was on a character that did little damage myself.  My point is that as a worst case scenario, if someone has really brought too little damage for the mission, my strategy still works, but just takes a lot longer.  I'd much prefer that to a strategy where if you're a little short on firepower, you fail.  In practice, both strategies involve the same amount of running if the group is good.  The difference is that a subpar group can adapt my approach to work with a little more running around, but if the east bombard isn't going to hold up long enough, they can't.


 * A glaring problem with the write-up as it stands is that you don't go into details on where to position Master of Whispers and Razah. If you put them in front of the whispers group, the whispers group doesn't engage the mobs that come, and they fight alone, and die.  If you put them behind it, they sit and watch the whispers group die, then try to defend the bombard alone, and die.  If you send all three whispers groups over, flagging them is pretty easy:  let them go over, look at radar, and plant flags on radar inside the convex hull of where the whispers groups stand.  That might still work with only one whispers group, but whether it does or not, the article needs to say something about the positioning.


 * What can happen quite a bit is that some Kournan Bowmen sit way back and snipe at a group with a big height advantage. If they get rushed by a lot of Vabbi Guards or minions at once, they can die pretty fast and it's not such a problem.  If they only get rushed by a few, they have a lot of time to fire away at one target, and with a considerable height advantage, that gets things killed.  Furthermore, if minions head up to kill the bowmen, they end up fighting the margonites in the area once the bowmen are dead, and the minions die in a hurry with an elementalist boss there.  That sometimes results in Master of Whispers having no minions at all for a while, so you can't rely on always having minions up.


 * "The only differences in our strategies, as you can see, is that we differ on the number of Whispers groups to assign to the east bombard." An immediate corollary of that difference is its consequences.  Under my approach, the east bombard will reliably be held as long as you need, even if you dawdle.  Under yours, it may or may not.  If it reliably does, great, but I'd like to see some testing results before I'd believe that.


 * There's also the difference I refer to above, with you not saying precisely where to flag the heroes. Just somewhere in the general area of the bombard isn't good enough to hold it even with all three whispers groups there, let alone only one.


 * Another difference is what happens just before the bosses spawn. Your article says "leave one or two behind for the Whispers to deal with."  If you kill everything else without significantly damaging the Kournan Bowmen, and then leave those two to fight against only the Vabbi Guards (and no whispers groups), you reliably have plenty of time to set up wherever you want to before the bosses spawn.  If you leave the wrong mobs fighting only the Vabbi Guards, you might get one of the guards killed, the mobs might die and make the bosses spawn before you're ready, or they might stalemate, forcing you to come back and kill them, and be way out of position when the bosses spawn.  It's only a difference of several seconds, and probably not the difference between beating and failing the mission, but every little bit helps.


 * And finally, going way off on a tangent, when I do Pogahn Passage, I flag henchmen and heroes back to pull mobs a bit. That's probably not entirely necessary for an easy mission like that, but that's still more hero management than just letting them run wherever they want.  As for Ruins of Morah, I wasn't able to spike Varesh to dead before being overwhelmed by torment creatures, nor survive Varesh's hefty damage output if I ignored her to kill torment creatures.  It's not hard to fix, of course: flag henchmen out of the way to clear torment creatures a bit until it's manageable (which requires reflagging Morgahn repeatedly since he likes to charge ahead with his short range spear, which pulls Varesh before I'm ready), lock Olias on Varesh with most skills disabled except for Enfeeble and Spoil Victor once she comes, and otherwise focus fire on torment creatures that come, only intermittently attacking Varesh.  It's probably not the only way to do the mission, but that approach does entail some hero management. Quizzical 11:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The problem we have, then, is that you require proof that my strategy works. "If it reliably does, great, but I'd like to see some testing results before I'd believe that." I find this a bit disappointing, because I don't hold the same claim to your strategy...I'm not demanding any proof that it works, I simply assume it does because you say it does (as well as one obscure user). My strategy works because I know it works - it is what I did for Master's. And I've got as much or more H/H experience than you...I've done H/H groups for every single storyline mission in the game, and gotten Master's/Bonus/extra objectives/whatever you call it for all of them. But you only have my word for it...Regardless, I would ask that you give me at least a little bit of credit - I find it insulting that you consider my stragegy "going from one clearly explained strategy that reliably works to zero" (emphasis added). Even if it is "less reliable" (we shall see about that), it is certainly better than nothing at all. Trust me, I read the old walkthrough also, and that was what I would call "zero".


 * To be honest, you cannot be "a little short on firepower and fail" - you have one Hero, Devona, and maybe Cynn or Herta, plus the player. The Warrior boss is too wimpy to not be killed by that. As long as you have any sort of semi-competent build on the player and the hero (you could even run BM or Smite) it will work just fine. I don't give average players much credit, but even a Wammo or an R/E Conjure or a Rodgort's Assassin or a Meleemancer or...any other popularly misconceived build will work. Once that is out of the way, it is a moot point, since whether you follow your strategy or mine you will probably be running around a bit (due to less than max firepower).


 * The eastern bombard will hold as long as you need. Like I said, unless something absolutely catastrophic happens...I dunno, you lure the Elementalist boss down or something dumb like that...it is fine. Unless the mission has changed drastically since the last time I played it, this is still true. So this is also not a weak point, although I suppose I would have to prove it to you.


 * I don't know whether they modified the Kournan Bowman AI since last I've played, but I have never had that problem in my experience. While they can definitely take longer to kill than most foes because of selfheal and Whirling Defense, I have never found them to be very big on killing power, even at a height advantage. I would think that Death Nova would destroy them anyways.


 * The part about which mobs to leave for the final wave before the bosses...I suppose you have done more extensive testing of this than I have. In my experience it didn't ever make much of a difference which mobs you left behind, as long as they were just one or two - the guards took care of them. Obviously, you would not leave double Elementalists or Priests because they would either spike or healball, respectively. But I figured that would be obvious. I guess it needs to be pointed out. Vabbi Guards are relatively tough and all other foes shouldn't pose much problems to them. (Unless, again, something really changed.)


 * I will concede that you go into much greater detail than I do about the exact placement of the Heroes. That is definitely a mistake on my part. I suppose it is hard to get everything right on the first draft.


 * I think that it would be best to rewrite your strategy and post that, since it apparently is rigorously tested...and then leave a note that if you have a strong party with two humans or even all humans, it is faster to do it my way. The question of which strategy is clearly superior can only be settled through testing results, and short of posting competing videos on YouTube or something crazy, I dunno how we would do that. You could try out my strategy and I could try out yours, perhaps.


 * Tangent. The first half of Pogahn Passage - where the Kournans are still friendly to you - obviously doesn't take any hero skills whatsoever. You only fight a few small mobs. Once you break the prison, things get a little bit more difficult. You must reach the docks within the time limit, and make sure Kormir and Shahai don't kick the bucket. Personally, I never had any trouble with this mission...Shahai is an extra healer, and none of the Kournans pose a real threat to you. They are the same mobs you have been fighting since Consulate Docks, so you should be well prepared. Without ever touching the hero controls at all, I easily made it to the end with time to spare and no deaths. To be honest, the hardest part was waiting for Kormir and Shahai to catch up.


 * Tangent 2. As for Ruins of Morah, well...perhaps you just weren't running the right build. Varesh really doesn't deal lethal levels of damage if you know what you're doing. Weaken, Blind, Snare...yup. I don't have Spoil Victor and I did this before Pain Inverter was invented, too. Morgahn was set up as an Aggressive Refrain full spear build, solely focused on damage; Cruel Spear was his Elite. The rest of the party was Cynn, Herta, Devona, Gehraz, Khim, Dunkoro, and someone else I can't remember. I was a Ranger, and I think my build was Point Blank Shot/Zojun's Shot + Glass Arrows. That's all. Varesh's first form died quickly. While I was waiting for the second form to spawn, my Guild Wars crashed with an Err7...and when I logged back in, I had gotten Masters. So, even without my help, the H/H had killed Varesh for me. It was pretty nifty. I don't think the Torment Demons interfered, because I was waiting right on top of Varesh - in the middle area where she spawns. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 01:37, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The reason I'm skeptical that your strategy reliably works is not that I have no reason to believe one way or the other, but rather, that I have considerable reason to believe that it does not. I've tried putting all three whispers groups, Master of Whispers, and Razah at the bombard and had them lose it when Master of Whispers and Razah weren't positioned properly.  I never had that problem once I figured out how to position them.


 * I'm of the view that strategies of the "I tried this once and it worked" sort don't belong on the wiki unless there's nothing else there. Something that works half the time might work for you that one time by dumb luck, but is hardly a reliably approach.  I didn't just try my strategy once.  I tried it ten times before posting it, with some intrinsic variations on how I carried it out due to no two mission runs going exactly the same.


 * For example, when I did Gates of Kryta hard mode, it seemed quite easy the first two times I did it. The third time, Justiciar Hablion ran ahead and got himself killed.  Had I rushed to the wiki to post what I had done after doing it only twice, I'd have posted some random junk that implicitly relies on a lot of dumb luck to work.  With additional testing, I was able to fix my strategy.


 * For a more complicated example, there are a lot of builds that can sometimes work for beating the Norn fighting tournament. Had I posted builds that I tried and found to work once on the Guide to defeating Magni the Bison, what I'd have posted would have been of no higher quality than the random junk that preceded it.  Instead, I went through the tournament with each build posted several times, sometimes modifying a build and restarting the testing if it didn't work as well as I hoped.  That way I was able to ensure that I could usually beat Magni with it, and also draw most of the earlier opponents to directly verify that each particular build could beat nearly all of them.  Fighting the other opponents while playing as most of the different classes also gave me a much better idea of what the earlier opponents are capable of.  For example, Lukas is trivial to beat if you mainly cast spells for damage, but he can be tough if you have to rely on melee.  The top half of that page is thus the product of more than a hundred trips through the tournament, not counting failed attempts, and not just some random junk that may occasionally work if you get lucky.


 * The problem with the Kournan bowmen isn't that one does great damage. The problem is that occasionally you get a backlog of them when they stay way back, and five of them firing on the same target at once can do considerable damage (as they sometimes do in Consulate Docks, for example).  It doesn't happen every time, and I'm not sure exactly what causes it.  You can sometimes clear the mission entirely before losing anything at the eastern bombard.  With my strategy, maybe you lose a few Vabbi guards if you get unlucky on this, but you still beat the mission.  I'd much prefer that to relying on dumb luck with a strategy that only sometimes works.


 * What was so awful about my original write-up, anyway? And why was the bonus so much worse than the walkthrough?  Typos and bad sentence syntax tend to be local mistakes that are fixable by editing just one sentence.  If you don't like something like pronoun selection or active/passive voice that may carry through a whole write-up, it's still much easier to fix that by selective edits than to scrap a while article and start over.  Quizzical 04:39, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh, wait, you're the guy who fixed the Magni Guide? I remember you now. Sorry for not recognizing you - if I had earlier, I would have left the article alone entirely. You're one of the few people I know who have vastly more in-game experience than I do, and can actually prove it. I know you have high standards, also, so I will put full faith and credit behind your strategy. I'm not being sarcastic here - I look up to you and admire your persistence. (Although in all honesty I think it was more than just dumb luck. I, too, experimented on the bonus many times before settling on that strategy - which worked. While I have only done it with one character class, it wasn't a one-time thing either...)


 * I ought to check all the mission articles and rewrite them. I don't know why I singled that one out. Typos I don't care about unless there are a significant number of them; syntax is irrelevant unless it makes something hard to understand. That wasn't really the issue though. It was more like...never use "I"...some awkward sentence structure...general appearance (messy, needed trimming). I dunno. I suppose you are right that it would have been easier to just make selective edits. However, if I had done that, we would never have had this conversation, which I have at the least found enlightening. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

GWW fun
I know you've said that you have no intention of moving over to GWW, and I also saw your comment on GW2W with reference to the dick who stole your user name. I can understand the whole issue pissing you off on all things official-wiki related, but you may be interested on the discussion going on here. Always know who your friends are :) -- Snog  rat  21:59, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the heads-up. To be honest I don't give a damn about what anyone thinks of me on the other two Wikis...I believe that because of good faith policies, each Wiki should be treated as a separate entity, with very little crossing over between them. A person can be a kind, considerate, trusted user on one Wiki and an absolute troll on another. So, while some remnants of the past should follow us (keep your friends and enemies if you wish, for example), I believe that a user's reputation and image for Wiki X should be based primarily, 90%, on his or her actions on Wiki X. Everyone deserves...no, everyone has a clean slate when they begin on a new Wiki. People who port over their reputations or any pretense of being respected, useful, knowledgeable, etc. run into trouble, as we can see from the "grandfathering" of sysops from GWiki to GWW and other issues. People change between Wikis, for better or worse, sometimes markedly - I've seen that far too many times myself. Only in the truly exceptional cases (Raptors is the perennial example) should this standard be broken.
 * Always know who your friends are, but be prepared for change when you shift Wikis. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:19, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Entropy, that makes me respect you even more. I started that notice on the Admin noticeboard partly because it was an attack on you, but also for the whole principle of the thing. People like Raptors shouldn't be allowed to run roughshod all over the wikis doing whatever they want with no regard to other users. More power to your elbow :) -- Snog  rat [[Image:User Snograt signature.png]] 18:46, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Raptors actually seemed like a nice guy, I guess he's *almost* a good-a actor as I am. I dont think that anymore, though. --[[Image:Warwick sig.JPG]] Warwick (Talk)/(Contr. ) 18:53, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Raptors is nice, almost gentlemanly when he wants to be, and it would be a lie to say he's not levels above almost all of us in terms of technical and/or Wiki savvy. He has done...a lot of things...which make it hard to trust him on a new Wiki. But, he still should have a clean slate of history, same as everyone else. I think that it is okay for people to port over their trust/distrust of Raptors for the GW2W because it is a vulnerable target and he could potentially make a huge impact on it, for good or bad. So he needs to be watched and not forgotten about. However, unless he actually does/did something wrong (already controversy about that >.>), he shouldn't be automatically banned, for example. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

unused and unloved images
as long as i have your attention on the subject, mind going through Special:Unusedimages with a weedwacker? it's nice that users can upload images for user pages, but i doubt we need to keep leftovers of old users or multiple copies from when the user was still trying to figure out how to upload. . --Honorable Sarah 08:28, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, as you can see it is part of my Admin Command Center tools...Unused Images. It is on my very long to-do list. But, it is low priority because there are many other things that I am busy with. Once in a while I get on deleting sprees...but you know, there are like 20000 images in there. Sigh. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:31, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * maybe a mass extinction is in order then? Galil had a bot lying around some years ago, i wonder if it could be recommisioned? --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 08:34, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, I would love to be able to sic a bot on that huge backlog. The only issue is that a very few of those images which are "unused" are actually useful or otherwise misplaced/badly replaced/something. So just like Images Without Cats, it is safest to go through manually. Besides, I wonder if Wikia would have a fit. I have little to no knowledge of how to work a bot.
 * Although it is quite tempting. :) [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:37, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * This is actually the next item on my wiki tasks, so I'll be going through them in a day or two once I get over from all the holiday fuzz. So no need for anyone else to take the time to do it. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 09:49, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks Gem. Good luck, and I hope you can get all 20,000 of them :) [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 00:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * There's only 3,700 or so, actually. I counted earlier. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 01:46, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


 * starting from 3501, no more than 500 more --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]]-- (s)talkpage 01:48, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I started this yesterday, but encountered 2 problems:
 * The wiki is slow. loading images and even pages with images turned off takes ages.
 * Lots of armor images that have already been deleted are still shown in the list.
 * I'll continue working on it, but it will definitely take more time than one evening, contrary to what I was aiming for. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 01:50, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I am confused. Someone told me at some point that there were 20,000 unused images. Maybe people have been deleting them when I wasn't checking...huh. Or perhaps they were talking about the Images Without Cats...I dunno. In any case, for your second problem Gem, I have noticed that too. I think that it is only when Fyren deleted stuff, that it "didn't actually get deleted" and some sort of fragment keeps it on the list. I re-delete those just to make sure. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 01:58, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * They were talking about Images Without Cats, I counted those earlier as well. 23,000 or so. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 02:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm interested in how you did it. The wiki didn't offer me a deletion link on the pages of those bugged images. Did you manually tweak the url to egt to the deletion page of those images? That'd take some time to do... -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 02:02, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks Felix, I was confused...Gem - What do you mean? All I remember, was that sometimes when I was going through the delete logs I would click on an image and then try to do delete...but I would get an error message, "File does not exist or was already deleted" or something to that effect, even though it was still there. To the best of my recollection, what I did was click the link which says "Delete all revisions of this file" (which should be the same as a normal delete) and that fixed the problem. However, perhaps what you are encountering is different. I would like to see an example if you have one. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 02:13, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It might be caused by the same reason, but it shows off differently for me. When I enter these pages, the image page link at the top is red and the deletion link isn't there at all, ie the whole page is like a page for a non-existant image, but instead of having "There is no page titled "Image:fsahfisduhfsdifs.jpg". You can create this page." etc the image is shown. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 02:20, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Copyrights?
I don't know anything about copyrights, but does this seem fair?-- (Talk) (Contr.) 18:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Uhh...I don't know much about copyrights, and I haven't read the whole guide in full yet. I was not aware that screenshots were exempt from the copyright laws, but that may very well be the case. Hmm. In GWW's defense, that is a screenshot that we don't use anymore and haven't for quite some time. Also, that screenshot was uploaded (I think) by a user who released under GFDL. So I think it may be alright.
 * In any case that's a crappy Kanaxai image so I'd let them have it regardless. I would be a bit more concerned if they started ripping user's personal images from userpages, and stuff like that, without permission. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 00:56, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Alright. The image in question was uploaded by User:Huntmaster. Unfortunately, this user does not have a userpage or a talk page, and so it is impossible to know whether or not their content is also licensed under the GFDL. Because of this, it cannot be said whether or not GWW is breaking the copyright laws...they may be, they may not be. The user would have to be asked first. On the other hand, whether my interpretation has any bearing on GWW, I have no idea. As some users over there point out, ALL screenshots from Guild Wars itself are originally the property of ANet. We use the licensing tag to deal with this problem by claiming "Fair Use" rights - "The image in question is being used to legitimately illustrate some object or concept, and no free or uncopyrighted substitute is easily available." This is true. In my opinion, because ANet can choose to revoke screenshot rights if they feel they are being used improperly, all screenshots belong to them ultimately, and the CC/GFDL rights of the individual uploaders are irrelevant. (Think chain of command)
 * As Jennalee points out, though, it is a common courtesy to make note of where a copied image comes from. And it would certainly not be okay if the uploader on GWW lied and said they were the original screenshot capturer. But that is not legal stuff, per se. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 01:04, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * See what I said on the page it shows how moronic whoever wrote their screenshot template was --Gimmethegepgun 01:06, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Yessir, despite all their technical savvy advancements, our upload text on GuildWiki is still more factually correct. All thanks to Xeon or Xeeron or whoever it is, I can't remember anymore :) [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 01:41, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Happy '08
I can't believe nobody put that on your page :P. Happy new years --Shadowcrest  00:53, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, welcome to 2008 RT | Talk  00:54, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * STILL NOT 2008 YET HERE!!!--[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 00:55, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Here either marco, and entropy is 3 (2?) hours behind us. --Shadowcrest 00:56, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It is here Though RT | Talk  00:56, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Rofls.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] Lann 00:57, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Happy new yr again all<font color="Red">Cloud dyl  00:58, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Since im in the uk i can say happy new year. and shadowcrest should learn to spell. &mdash; ♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 01:43, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I stole the template from RT, RT needs to lern 2 speel :P --<font face="vivaldi" size="3">Shadowcrest  01:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * wheres the bad spelling?<font color="Red">Cloud dyl  01:47, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I fixed, overcrowding was spelled wrong. --<font face="vivaldi" size="3">Shadowcrest 01:48, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * i see, you still need to learn to spell, speel?<font color="Red">Cloud dyl  01:50, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * lern sarcazm pl0x --<font face="vivaldi" size="3">Shadowcrest  01:56, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * sarcazm = phail on teh intarnetz --Gimmethegepgun 03:21, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * If you couldn't tell that was sarcastic, you phail :P --<font face="vivaldi" size="3">Shadowcrest  03:23, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm with Shadow here, sarcasm is my life-blood. You fail Gimme for even saying that Blue.rellik 03:26, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Happy New Years, Entropy. It's still 22:27 here. &mdash;[[Image:BlastThatT.jpg]]Blastedt 03:28, 1 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Happy New year-in-1:33 to you, then ^^--- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]]-- (s)talkpage 03:30, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

1 hour to go here (I'm in her time zone on vacation). about 65 minutes left in good ol' 2007.<font color="#4682b4">Entrea Sumatae  <font color="#4682b4">[Talk]  06:55, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * HAPPY NEW YEAR![[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]]<font color="#4682b4">Entrea Sumatae  <font color="#4682b4">[Talk]  08:00, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Happy New Year! (even though it's almost 3 o'clock in the afternoon here) Drag <font color="FF5500">nmn   talk cont  13:56, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks everyone :) Even though we may have less people on GuildWiki now, it has definitely become a more festive place around holidays. I like that. :) (T/C) 00:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I miss you.
Get MSN. Please. I miss you, alot. You were awesome, and it sucks that I don't ever see you any more. &mdash;Blastedt 03:23, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * MSN for...messenger whatever you call it? I guess I could do that. Other Wiki users like Auron seem to make use of it too, so I suppose it couldn't hurt in the long run. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 00:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks
thanks for adding the screenshot tag to a big part of my screenshot page =), appreciate it, happy new year buddy. Vega Underdark 10:27, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Entropy's a girl --Gimmethegepgun 17:47, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * "Buddy" can also be a unisex term, similar to the way "guys" can be considered as "everyone". -- Brains12 • Talk • 18:43, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I am used to that. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 00:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Mr. Underdark, I appreciate the compliment, but I'm not sure what you are talking about...I haven't been adding tags at all lately. It was probably someone else. I've never seen your screenshot page before, either. Now that I have, though, it is very nice I must say. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 00:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


 * orly? --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]]-- (s)talkpage 04:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh! My bad, Mr. Underdark. But that was such a long time ago that I'd completely forgotten. Thank you for digging that up, Viper. :) [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 04:19, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Lol, no prob ;) --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]]-- (s)talkpage 04:20, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Omg Fire Emblem?!
I managed to find a translated GBA ROM of FE6, Fuuin no Tsurugi. It's Roy's game. :o Do you want me to upload it to a third party file host and link you? Direct transfer would be easier, but whatever works is fine. 19:53, 1 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I hate Roy, and wouldn't touch his game with a ten-foot pole...but thanks for the offer. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 00:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I see. I also have FE4, starring Sigurd, the most overpowered Lord ever created. SNES. Want that one? [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 00:55, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Good thing I checked my e-mail. >.> [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 01:02, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Special:Wantedpages
Cries --Gimmethegepgun 03:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * QQ Moar! Ask him to fix it? [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 03:56, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't understand what is being said here. I see no redlinks on that userpage. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 04:19, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Check the version before 207.255.204.28 repaired it --Gimmethegepgun 04:24, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Is not that bad. Also, they are the same user. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 04:25, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * "not that bad"? I count 58 red links before he fixed it up --Gimmethegepgun 04:29, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * That is a petty amount compared to what is already in the Wantedpages, and most would be easy to fix anyways. Sure, it was a lot for one user, but what's in the past is in the past...no harm done. Meh. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 04:38, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Hope you don't mind
but I updated and edited your statistics. I also changed the link to your sig image to an external link, so it doesn't just redirect you back to your userpage, and allows someone to more easily view the image.-- (Talk) (Contr.) 05:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)