Talk:Wintersday 2007

create
"This will NOT be the 2007 version of Wintersday." Why not? Am I missing something here?

Is this a place holder for future Wintersday event wiki page?


 * rofl. (The period at the end of the "rofl" implies that I am being sarcastic, and the sarcasm is because someone inserted "NOT" into the Wintersday page as a joke, and it has since been removed.  I actually looked at the history, and there wasn't much more than that, so I wanted to save other people the time of going back to see it.)
 * Anyways, hi, I'm here because I wanted to make note that last year, the Wintersday celebration started on Wednesday, December 20th, at 4:25pm PST, and does not seem to have any correlation with the first day of actual Earth Winter in Northern Hemisphere (which was December 22nd in 2006, as it is for 2007). I thought maybe I'd note it, in case anyone else was daring to venture a guess as to when Wintersday decorations were going up this year. --Qrystal 05:41, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

guildwars.com
http://www.guildwars.com/events/ingame/wintersday2k7/default.php -{[ PUL ]}- 19:07, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Heh... they gotta be careful with their descriptions... "And, if you believe the old adage that it is better to give than to receive..."... Yes, yes it is much better to be the PITCHER, then it is the receiver... ;) ;) -- Tasiden

Good job screwing that up retard. Pitcher/catcher not PITCHER/receiver


 * You have to have a mind in the gutter to understand the comment. -- Tasiden 00:40, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

No one needs to understand it to know you screwed up a fairly common euphemism. Insults or not you made yourself look stupid, congrats.

Holiday Headgear
Upon reading over the official Wintersday announcement on the main GW site, I noticed a line stating "...this year, the hat you receive will depend on which deity wins the day, so choose wisely." Does this mean the ENTIRE day? As in, for each finale moment, you get no hat and at the end of the day, you get one or the other, but not both? Or does this mean it will operate as usual, but has just been worded strangely? Thoughts? ----21:54, 13 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I have a feeling it means which deity wins each appearance. Felix Omni 08:32, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

>.< we can only choose one!?!?!


 * The appearance will probably happen several times during the whole event, like the Mad Thorn King from Halloween. Just keep traveling around and going to different event locations until you get both. Aegbno 14:04, 14 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I think we should do the same thing as last year... the even numbered districts pick a side to always win, and the odd numbered ones pick the opposing side to always win... then that way we can all enjoy our festive hats together! -- Tasiden

"Don't Drink and Quest"
why give us drunk skills then... phooey :p -Kumdori 06:51, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

decorations
The site says that it will start on the 21st, does this mean decorations will be raised, or that quests will be given and decorations will come out on like....wednesday or something.


 * If I remember the last couple years correctly, decorations come first with quests starting a day or so later... or maybe I'm losing my mind.... --[[Image:Aldora_xmas.jpg]]--17:50, 17 December 2007 (UTC)


 * No u're right -- Ricky  17:51, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

i know decorations come first, im saying is the quests starting the 21st or the decorations, with the quests coming 22-23


 * Yeah, they usually put up decorations a week or two early.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png]]Entrea Sumatae   [Talk]  23:54, 18 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't remember the decorations ever going up that early. maybe by thrusday the will be up, but last time i checked (sunday 6pmish GMT) they werent there -Blaster 68.142.57.149 03:35, 19 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Same. Decorations always go up first, but not a week or two before the party starts... I look for decorations to be up Friday.  Thursday if Anet is ahead of schedule.  --[[Image:Aldora_xmas.jpg]]--11:50, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

the decorations were up thursday around 6 central

Collectors
Shouldn't there be something about the collectors like what they collect? I know that in Lion's Arch are the following collectors: Priestess Siara (supporter of Dwayna) searching 1 Shadowy Remnants, Priest Meran (Dwayna) searching 3 Decayed Orr Emblems, Necromancer Kalvori (Grenth) searching 2 Hardened Humps, Dark Priest Calmein (Grenth) 2 Feathered Caromi Scalps.

In Ascalon City: Priest Erwin (Dwayna) 2 Ornate Grawl Necklaces, Priestess Clara (Dwayna) 3 Charr Carvings, Necromancer Ichibaun (Grenth) 2 Stormy Eyes, Necromancer Malaise (Grenth) 2 Singed Gargoyle Skulls.

Grenth's collectors offer: Spiked Eggnog, Fruitcake, Snowman Summoner, Wintergreen Candy Cane.

Dwayna's collectors offer: Eggnog, Fruitcake, Snowman Summoner, WIntergreen Candy Cane.

the wintersday present guy is in kamadan! for 5 candy cane shards he gives you a wintersday present (it was on the wintersday page a day ago, but had been removed).Cosyfiep 18:20, 23 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The candysmiths are out! Saw Candysmith Kris in Lion's Arch, next to the Rune Trader. -- Tasiden 04:40, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Candy Cane Shards
Do we need 250 shards for the hats?!? its saying we should hold on to them til the end (>.<)
 * No, see Wintersday 2006, Festival finale for details on how festival hats are "won". --Wolfie [[Image:Wolfie_sig.jpg|19px]] (talk|contribs) 00:20, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Secret Lair of Snowmen
What are the new quests that are taking place there? Any word on that? Silver40596 00:25, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Frozen Globs of Ectoplasm
I don't even think these are obtainable this year. So why are they even in the article. --Hell bringer  (T/C) 01:40, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

they are, jsut not yet

New 2006 and New 2007 Quest Release Dates
From studying what happened last year with the new quests, the Rift Warden and whoever it is for the new quests of 2007 should arrive sometime between Dec. 22-24 2007.

Odd and Even
Who made the "decision" for this year that one's gonna be for Dwayna and the other for Grenth? -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 04:32, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Has been a collective community thing informally organised in-game for most of the past Wintersday events. Ie, lots of chatter on the All channel that if people want one type of hat or the other, they should go to an odd or even numbered district, the idea being to create districts heavily favouring one god or the other to increase the chances to guaranteeing which hat is awarded. --Wolfie [[Image:Wolfie_sig.jpg|19px]] (talk|contribs) 07:40, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I know players do organize it in-game. However, as this is a player-organized behavioral thing, I am concerned that this may have regional differences, especially for the non-language districts.  What if the mass of French players decide to organize it differently, but a French-user of GuildWiki checked here and see the "wrong" information?  I'm going to edit the article to neutralize the point. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 09:06, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I was about to do that myself, but I'll leave it to you. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 09:06, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * No, the organisation is based ingame and adhoc :) You know wich hat youll get when you enter the diss... usually its 1xk for grenth and 2xk for dwayna... but that was my intuition last year... Mister Muscolo [[image:Charging_Strike.jpg|19px]]
 * It depends on the players in the dist too. RT | Talk  - A joyous wintersday to all 15:44, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Players soon get "yelled at" to stand on one side or the other depending on the "mass's decision" at each visitation event (with the inevitable joker that deliberately stands on the opposite side just to invoke reactions *sigh*). So yeah, it's not always globally Dwayna even / Grenth odd (or visa versa), so keeping it neutral on the article avoids the whole "..but GuildWiki says..." accusations. --Wolfie [[Image:Wolfie_sig.jpg|19px]] (talk|contribs) 00:30, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Re-wrote the section to clarify things. If someone feels like I didn't explain something well enough, please change it, but hopefully this will settle debate and make things more neutral.--Murdoc the Mad 00:59, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I remember reading something last year similar to "To facilitate the accesibility of hats, we recommand, odd district for Grenth victories and even districts for Dwayna victories".--King Of Kamelott 03:36, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

bug involving the "dwarf cage"
The Don't feed the dwarf sign is an NPC, and not only that, there a bug. If you position yourself correctly behind the wall, click, and press space twice quickly. You would eventually end up in the cage yourself!!--Dark Paladin X 19:25, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Its not even a matter of hitting the space bar. Its the same glitch as the old lions arch sign glitch, and the wall glitch in Gates of Kryta (Mission) [[Image:Isk8.png]]Isk8 19:33, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I just target the sign and press space. --[[Image:Feardrake.JPG]] 02:57, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Similar glitch was on the Costume Brawl mission outpost.--Dark Paladin X 05:00, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
 * ooH, I love that one --[[Image:Feardrake.JPG]] 20:28, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

new quests
anyone beat the new quests yet? they seem impossible.
 * I beat them. They were easy. Did it on my first try. --Hell bringer [[Image:Hellbringer sig.jpg|19px]] (T/C) 22:23, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * It would be pretty funny if they were impossible. Good game, Anet. Try to beat these unpassable missions, and Merry Christmas. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 22:28, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, 50 murssat and 5 eather seals would be cool RT | Talk  - A joyous wintersday to all 22:30, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Lol. I found out a tactic for beating the new quests. Grab aggro use Ice Fort. Then just spam away while your grentch help :D. --Hell <font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="red">bringer [[Image:Hellbringer sig.jpg|19px]] (T/C) 22:33, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I got to the point where i had 25 grench helpers i just needed to agro and let the huge amount of grenches own the snowmen these are too easy and u get like 20 shards each run.
 * I think the grench one is pretty easy, but the dwayna one is very difficult. I beat on my first try as well, but only by running away from the grentches, break agro, and come back in range so the snowmen would rez, and letting the snowmen slowly beat them on their own, then when there were 2 left in a wave I would come in and kill, however thats a little rediculous for a fun Holiday quest.-Warior kronos 16:42, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

--King Of Kamelott 16:37, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * It easy to beat with an ele. Just use icicles to kill stuff and stand behind walls.  Snowballs need line of sight.  Icicles don't.

Peppermint Candy Canes
hi all I was just wondering if there was peppermint candy cane drops the ones that take away DP. Thanks. 75.161.159.179Palin
 * in the modified wintersday chest... Mister Muscolo  [[image:Charging_Strike.jpg|19px]]

I got peppermint cc's in wintersday gifts from the wintersday gift givers.

Special New Years???
I heard a rumor that last year the was somthing special at the turn of the year, can anyone confirm this or know if somthing like that is happening this year? Shogankiller 15:53, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
 * One thing is for sure, i'm not ganna play GW at 23.59 xD -{[ <font color="Black">PUL ]}- 16:02, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Something special at the turn of the new year? Yeah, the Wintersday finale, just like the past two years.--71.220.33.23 17:59, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Special Hats
Please post if you find any screens of the hats-to be. :) merry xmas Mister Muscolo  09:55, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The wintersday contest shows the concept of one of the hats: here <font color="Blue">RT </B>| <font color="Black">Talk</B>  09:59, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I hate that crown so much, it looks like a bunch of icy carrots. Whoever Nian is, he or she did not gain my respect with that picture. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 19:57, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * looks like there are only two hats. dwayna - http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/8619/dwaynalionsarchnt1.jpg (screen from me)

GMT
can sum1 put on the gmt times 2 thx --85.66.91.3 10:46, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

check this http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/time-zone/usa/pacific-time/ --Witchblade 17:19, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think this will do just fine tho: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Wintersday_2007 Mister Muscolo  [[image:Charging_Strike.jpg|19px]] 08:38, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Lol, for all anets events I just know now it's 8, 11, 2, 5, 8 etc <font color="Blue">RT </B>| <font color="Black">Talk</B>  08:40, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Rolling updates
With regards to, It has been stated by Gaile Gray that there will be more updates before the finale (December 25th was mentioned). has there been anything new specifically for the 25th? 01:46, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Prezzie hunting :) Mister Muscolo [[image:Charging_Strike.jpg|19px]]
 * Aha, I didn't realise they were missing. The only new thing we got this year was the snowman dungeon thingy. <font color="Blue">RT </B>| <font color="Black">Talk</B>  08:47, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I was expecting/hoping for something new Christmas, as you've said, only the 2 underworld quests were added...Would've loved to see a new item :( (Well, there's still the Finale, so you never know =D)-Warior kronos 14:58, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Seems that Gaile was wrong, as there was a new build tonight. lol [[Image:Isk8.png]]Isk8 09:07, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Frog
Has any1 else noticed there are multiple frogs in kamadan. I do not know bout La, but could thid relate to The Frog?--Murderer Bomb 03:19, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Or they are just ambient frogs, perhaps? --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]]-- (s)talkpage 10:10, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I saw one of these "ambient frogs" in LA on Jan 1, 2008. It was kinda near the Festival Hat guy, I believe.  --Qrystal 09:07, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Glitch
When you pick up a present and enter the dwarf cage, the Grentchs cannot come in and start exploding (as if they were a present). If you go closer to them the present explodes but the Grentchs remain stuck near the dwarf.--King Of Kamelott 16:37, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

How To Obtain your Wintersday Hat - Rumors
Somebody seems to have added: "Rummer has it that you will have to trade around 40+ shards for a hat, and it is said there will from 2-4 hats, though non of this is confirmed other then the facts that there will be at least two hats and that candy cane shards will have an importance.*" to the Obaining Your Wintersday Hat section. Despite the grammar and spelling errors, we shouldn't be putting up random rumors here on wiki, whether they seem probable or not. Either way, you'll find out at 12:00 today (tomorrow?) whether there will be a price for these hats.

LAG
I don't know if this has been an issue in years past, I know it wasn't during the dragon festival or halloween, but the lag in most town especially with a Grenth win is insane. Most people are reporting 3 or less frames per second and pings going over 10k and hovering around 5-7k. I'm thinking Anet could have predicted this a little better...24.18.131.180 08:43, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Is it me or are the lagspikes getting worse.

Extreme Lag
Wow, everything was fine at the event in Kamadan till presents started dropping then about a 20k ping. I was still managing to pick up some presents about 1 every 20 seconds. Suddenly GW.exe crashed completely. This same event happened for atleast 12 people that were on vent in the same district. All I saw before I crashed were tons of presents becoming undedicated as so many crashed.--&mdash; xis10al   08:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * No crashing problems with the lag for me, althoug in ENG-dis1 in kamadan the lag also was unheard off, i still got 30fps, althoug i kinda had the feeling scotty was fooling with me and saw me jumping al over town. As soon as the most presents were picked up the lag was gone... Guess those presents need to be for everyone in the first place or at least let the time "before it comes available for everyone" be shorter (like say you got 10 seconds to pick up your own else it comes free). Most of the people are gone anyway and just stand there doing nothing.
 * same person from reaction above... GODDAMN, LA was totally frozen i couldn't get any presents at all... i even got disconnected at ~50k ping...and now i cannot connect back either...
 * Same problem here. First 30k ping, then it went up to 50k and I got disconnected. Still trying to reconnect now..
 * Same problem here and after I managed to recon everything I had gained had been lost!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! farking effectively wasted my time, got onto Kamadan, tried to discon instead to keep it and still lost farking everything. Anet really dropped the ball on this one!82.45.71.74 12:23, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm in Kamadan dist 43 at the moment, and even though there are only 50 people here, the lag is atrocious. Silver40596
 * With the last event everything (both odd and even dis) went very smooth for me, and I didn't hear anyone else complain about lag, although there were just as much people in the district as when I first tried. I don't know what anet did, but I guess it worked.

You effed district 106 in the ass, Anet. In the ass!
You skipped us! We got no hat whatsoever! It is now 48 minutes past the time in which the event was supposed to start. The news of you releasing Guild Wars 2 in 2014 is nothing compared to our loss! Anemos 08:50, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * All districts which where created after the event started didn't get anything, deal with it.--[[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg]]<font color="Black">ìğá†ħŕášħ Talk^Cont 08:53, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * BTW, it didn't work n UK dists after 11 for LA ( I was in 11) <font color="Blue">RT </B>| <font color="Black">Talk</B>  09:01, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Those in Europe/Spanish D2also suffered. Created long before the event started, we still got nothing 69.112.29.153 14:06, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

The hats are less than cool this year anyways.
 * If you read the main article, it tells you that any districts created within 15 minutes of the start of the event will not have the event. My advice?  Move to a lower numbered district.  --[[Image:Aldora_xmas.jpg]]--18:59, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Well we didn't know that because the info on the Wintersday 2007 page concerning the districts after the event was made was not added until sometime later. And whilst I was in district 106, people changed districts and reported that some districts like 110 got their hats while 99 didn't. How do you suppose that happened? [[image:anemos1.png]] Anemos 23:49, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Well that is weird but anyways I want to say something about GW2. Too bad we will be gone from this world by 2014 because of the fact that apparently the world will be gone. If you want to know go check on wiki about the Mayan Calendar. --<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="green">Hell <font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="red">bringer [[Image:Hellbringer sig.jpg|19px]] (T/C) 16:34, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Missing Collector
There is a Frozen Glob of Ectoplasm collector in Lion's arch, his name is Terum the Tonic Maker. It's not on the list of the article.24.201.190.111 09:27, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

code 040/007
Well i guess the servers are out completely, i cannot connect on any character... not even to the guild hall, AFTER i was thrown out of the game first.. There goes my change of getting an hat in kamadan :S. A-net sure knows how to get the party started the same f-ing quests as last year and the same problems times 10 like last year...
 * Servers are back up, but all hats and presents are gone. And I didn't even get the chance to try my hat on T-T
 * I got back in also, but wanted earlier dis and then GW crashed :S... guess they are down again :S
 * I got nailed by this too. During the 9:156am EST event, something else unusual happened in Kamadan d33 - after the battle was won and presents had fallen, the server kept killing everyone in the district. We were hit by massive lag until we were eventually lagged out of the game. Shame I couldn't pick up any of my gifts. When I logged back in, at least I still had my event hats this time. 69.112.29.153 14:37, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Grenth kills everyone in the dis, so that's not odd. Zefir 17:39, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

An amazing score of..
Overkill, much? -Yikey
 * We had 1055, then we all chrashed :( <font color="Green">Lยкץ๒๏ץ <font color="Blue">talk  12:33, 1 January 2008 (UTC)


 * We had 2500 for Grenth, and 49 for Dwayna once... That was cool --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]]-- (s)talkpage 18:37, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks kinda "shopped" to me (left part is darker)... and besides its not so special...
 * We had over 2,600 for Dwayna in LA Dis118 American, at 2:00 (my time). [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 00:29, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Grentchs not killing near the lighthouse in Lion's Arch
It seems that if you run to the lighthouse in Lion's Arch just after you receive your hat, the grentchs will not follow and kill you. As the Wintersday Gifts spawn near your location, you should be able to pick them up without difficulty. I'm not sure, however, if this will work if a large number of players move to the lighthouse. --Sinharath 17:41, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Put away your Miniatures
After some thought, I have concluded that main difference between this year and last year's event is the presence of Miniatures in Towns. It is not unlikely that this could be putting extra strain on the servers, resulting it high amounts of lag. So in an effort to reduce lag, I am asking all players to please keep your miniatures away while in Lion's Arch and Kamadan during the finales. --Curse You 18:35, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I thought of that too, but then I wondered if those minipets really make much of a difference and didn't say anything..
 * I just left a Dwayna district where players urged each other to put their pets away. There were some AFKers and people who refused, but most did. It was the smoothest event of the day. However, I think the Grentches when Grenth wins are causing serious problems too. Every time I played in an odd district, the lag was HORRENDOUS. :P Genofreek 02:32, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Interestingly, the NPCs that "Tag" players also see the minipets... that could be part of why they have so much of an effect. --Qrystal 09:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Removed the Special Note on Headgear
I removed this because it is completely stupid and stated at the bottom of the page. As it stated that odd was grenth and even was dwayna which is not always true.
 * The note at the bottom does not mention what colors are which deity, nor does it mention the candy cane shards. Furthermore, it should be at the top of the page, at least for today; I found it useful myself. Please do not remove it again. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 19:32, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The right thing to do then would've been to move the entire bottom section to the top, at least for today, and noting the colors. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 20:23, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the right thing to do at this point would be to point out that the colors are wrong and have nothing to do with which deity the circle is dedicated to, unless the other cities are different from LA. In LA, there are two 3x3 groups of circles, and when the event starts, the avatars will appear near the group of circles they're dedicated to. Pretty much all the circles in LA are green, with only a few at the front of each group appearing to be a different color. --Belker 21:32, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Both of my graphics cards (one nVidia, the other ATI) distinctly show a red shade for Grenth circles (closer to exit) and green shade for Dwayna circles (closer to Merchant Row) - no differences within the 3x3 area. 75.89.64.67 23:40, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I should add that this was referring to Lion's Arch. 75.89.64.67 23:41, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

5 minute delay between Prophesy and Nightfall
I added a note about something that was mentioned in a Lion's Arch district, that I verified last night at 3am. There is a 5 minute time delay between the arrival of the Gods in Lion's Arch and Kamadan. For this reason, players with both games can get both hats within 5 minutes of each other if they move quickly. Do Lion's Arch first, then as soon as you get the hat, jump over to Kamadan. I was wondering how I was going to time things today (busy day), but I was pleased to find that I could get both hats so quickly. I hope this is useful.

Oh well, another find
the pic says all, and this is not a fake :)


 * You are using mods though. And there is a polar bear mod I think <font color="Blue">RT </B>| <font color="Black">Talk</B>  17:37, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

my bad, you're right Texmod is running, i also posted this on guru if you need more confirmations :) Witchblade 17:56, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Polar Bear Minature Proof!

 * http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3499082&postcount=205
 * http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3498365&postcount=45

~United We Stand &#124; Divided We Fall~ 09:31, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * We know already <font color="Blue">RT </B>| <font color="Black">Talk</B>  09:31, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

When does Wintersday End?
Any ideas when the Wintersday event ends and all the quest and collectors disappear? --Mshantar 06:46, 3 January 2008 (UTC)