Talk:Game updates/Archive9

Whats this for
The page has this listed. Skills listed here use a 0...15 attribute level progression. GuildWiki uses a 0...12 attribute level progression when displaying skill information. Which has nothing to do with this article.--67.67.161.12 01:14, 6 June 2007 (CDT)
 * It is there because whenever a skill change is in a recent update, it lists the skill variance between 0 and 15 attribute points. This is confusing to most random visitors because the common and wiki method for variation on values in skills is on a 0 to 12 level.  This note may not have much purpose on every single update, but it definitely has merit on those updates which include skill updates. — RabiesTurtle (contribs) 01:23, 6 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah, we use 0...12 because that's the range used for the Skill Monitor tooltip. -- Gordon Ecker 01:56, 6 June 2007 (CDT)
 * It is in the wrong place. Someone needs to move it to a side panel - the top of the page should be the latest update, not some pedantic detail like this--Alexrob 14:10, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Uhh... all it does is make it so you have to look half an inch farther down the page. It also helps prevent bad edits to wiki because people think the listing is 0...12 and so go change page values to that instead of the actual value --Gimmethegepgun 14:14, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

June 1 Update

 * Updated some creatures so that they no longer have two elite skills in Hard Mode.

Which monsters and which skills? This is super-vague and I'd like for our notes to reflect on what they actually changed. -- JadeWarrior 22:47, 6 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Agreed, but due to the rather sparse notations on which monsters had which skills in Hard Mode before the change (and even still after it), we may never know. --Valentein 23:07, 6 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Southern Shiverpeak Grawl had "Victory is Mine!" and Battle Rage IIRC. --Kale Ironfist 23:23, 6 June 2007 (CDT)

June 1st Stealth Update?
I noticed that since the June 1st update, bow names that aren't specifically listed as their type now have a added little info bit after the "Two-handed" line, Image. L u i g i   (T/C) 10:29, 7 June 2007 (CDT)
 * It was in the May 24 update.&mdash; ├ A ratak ┤  10:36, 7 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Okay, thanks. Illiteracy for the lose. L u i g i   [[Image:Luigi shodansig.jpg]] (T/C) 11:10, 7 June 2007 (CDT)

Archived the page
I just archived the page since it was way too long. For some reason though the TOC is gone even though I didn't remove anything but the sections and didn't add anything new. If someone sees what I am overlooking, please fix it. — RabiesTurtle (contribs) 12:04, 7 June 2007 (CDT)
 * And apparently it just took me adding a new comment. Nvm — RabiesTurtle (contribs) 12:04, 7 June 2007 (CDT)
 * ToC is automatically added once a page has 4 sections. --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]]   17:09, 7 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Ah, that would explain it. Thanks for the info.  I figured it was always there no matter how many sections. — RabiesTurtle (contribs) 22:06, 7 June 2007 (CDT)

Return of Underworld Chests?
I've been down to the underworld a few times this week and have actually been using more keys than I've been getting as drops (I was up to 28 in my inventory until this weekend). Could this be the return of the oft-elusive Phantom Chests that used to stand proud in each area, but have since disappeared or magically spawn at the completion of a quest? (and no, I don't mean "Chests" spawning, I mean actual Phantom Chests spawning when quests complete, typically in Ice Wastes for example) Maybe its to offset the insanely low ecto price >.< -SuperStretch 11:42, 13 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Chest spawn after completing quests and killing groups of monsters. What's so strange in that? &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 16:03, 13 June 2007 (CDT)
 * He is trying to say that he thinks that the chests have possibly returned back to the old system - atleast partially. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 16:35, 13 June 2007 (CDT)
 * That would be fantastic news, because as of 2-3 weeks ago the system was just plain stupid. My group was down in the Underworld for hours, clearing The Labyrinth, Forgotten Vale, Ice Wastes, Twin Serpent Peaks, and the Bone Pits.  We did 3 reaper quests and cleared all but 2 sections of the underworld and found.....2 chests!
 * On the other hand, the average trip to the Fissure of Woe might turn up 6 chests just from the initial area, beach, spider cave, and questing to the Eternal Forge. Something was seriously off with the Underworld's chest spawning system, there was almost no point even bringing keys unless you had a group capable of clearing it. -Gildan Bladeborn 15:20, 10 July 2007 (CDT)

Dye drop weekend?
No mention of the triple dye drop weekend? &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.97.25.93 (contribs).


 * No, because the weekend events are not considered "updates". If an update(ie, a file download) is released pertaining to the weekend event, it will be noted with the update listings, otherwise they don't go here. DKS01 11:44, 14 June 2007 (CDT)


 * I kinda meant anywhere in the wiki. I just wasn't sure where to ask. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.97.25.93 (contribs).


 * Good point, actually. There is the updates page, there is the (somewhat neglected?) news page but the in-game announcements (that may not be published in those pages) may go unreported in the wiki. Hmm. --[[Image:lazyeyes.png]]Ishmaeel .ping ; .peek; 16:55, 14 June 2007 (CDT)


 * We don't document "Weekends". We only document actual events, such as the Dragon Festival. And remember to sign your comments on talk pages using 4 tildes . &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 17:04, 14 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Why document events then. Once it is past it isn't really news worthy either.


 * Yeah, that's established, and what's there to document about a weekend anyway? However, we could have a single page where we track the in-game announcements, could we not? I guess that's what 71.97.25.93 tried to ask. --[[Image:lazyeyes.png]]Ishmaeel .ping ; .peek; 17:10, 14 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Why have a wiki for the game at all. What is wrong with being complete about things happening in the game?


 * perhaps some type of rolling Weekend event schedule page which contains any information on weekend style events whenever we hear of them and one or two weeks past? be a good addition to the main page. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 18:27, 14 June 2007 (CDT)
 * More importantly, does anyone have a list of (almost) all past events? No sense starting from the middle, really. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 18:43, 14 June 2007 (CDT)
 * It wouldn't have to be a complete archive of all the game announcements evar, at all. In fact, it would be useful if it just mirrored the login screen text continuously. You know, just as a convenience or heads-up for those people who are currently bored with the game (so don't launch it) but keep monitoring the wiki in case anything cool happens, see? --[[Image:lazyeyes.png]]Ishmaeel .ping ; .peek; 19:05, 14 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I was thinking of creating a sample announcement page in my user space to illustrate this, but what do you know, the login screen article already had a red link to this : Announcements. Whaddayathink, y'all? --[[Image:lazyeyes.png]]Ishmaeel .ping ; .peek; 19:24, 14 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Currently at Guild Wars login announcements. --Fyren 06:41, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

June 16th Update
Not sure if this has been noted- I didn't see it anywhere on here. I can now convert a Skill point to a Hero Skill point by paying Hero Skill Trainers 1 Platinum. I am not sure if this was added with this update or not, as I don't frequently use the Hero Skill Trainers. -Zahrael
 * I am sorry, but this is just pure blindness! Read the last update, can you? Just read it from top to bottom, and don't skip things that aren't skill changes. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 07:49, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * gg  [[Image:Riven-sig.png]]   08:15, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Heh. No need to get pissy- I simply missed it. -Zahrael

Strange I go to my logg in screen and I hear Lion's Gate music instead of NF music, anyone else get this? Was this around before and I just missed it?Phalmatticus 18:47, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * they randomly select a tune from any campaign you own, i think. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 23:42, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * O rly? I've never got anything but the NF theme music on login, and before that, the Tyrian one (if that's what it was). I know that after the first tune finishes, the music cycles to different ones from any campaign...I can wait a few mins and hear Pre-Searing, Crystal Desert, Kryta, Shiverpeaks...etc. But the startup, first tune should always be the same. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 17:48, 17 June 2007 (CDT)

About the option to swap skill points for hero points, IMHO, I think it is pointless. If you want a particular skill taught by hero skill trainers, but have run out of hero points, start doing lots of sunspear/lightbringer hunts in HM, or just buy it from a skill trainer. Batchie 09:37, 17 June 2007 (CDT)


 * If you've used all your points on normal skills and want to buy the Sunspear ones, paying a few plat is easier (lazier) than going off and farming. - B e X or  [[Image:Bexor.png]] 09:54, 17 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Likewise, if someone maxed(or nearly maxed, so that you can't just "quickly" farm a title level) both Sunspear and Lightbringer titles and already spent all their hero skill points(unlikely, but for someone going for UAS maybe), they have no other way of getting the Sunspear skills. I mean, I know I can get 1k gold a LOT faster than I can get a hero skill point once my title levels are moderately high. DKS01 09:58, 17 June 2007 (CDT)


 * For the Sunspear Skills, fair enough. But I was referring to the normal skills you can also buy from skill trainers. Batchie 11:39, 18 June 2007 (CDT)


 * There really isn't a point there either, because it costs the same as buying a skill normally, and to my knowledge every skill given by hero skill trainers have been introduced to skill trainers at or before that point --Gimmethegepgun 16:24, 18 June 2007 (CDT)


 * I think it's only there for people who want to get the Sunspear Title Track skills, since they can't get it from a normal skill trainer. Ghost1 17:35, 18 June 2007 (CDT)

Hotkey bug
I first noticed this around Monday. Occasionally, the number keys will open the chat box rather than activating skills like they're supposed to. Minimising and then switching back to Guild Wars fixes the problem. -- Gordon Ecker 20:46, 21 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I had that problem a couple of weeks ago. Got annoying fast. --NYC Elite 21:22, 21 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I always thought that was because my Shift key was sticking. Pounding on the Shift key a couple times always fixed the problem for me. I cleaned my keyboard and all, and the problem persists, so maybe you're right. - [[Image:Candle.jpg|12px]] Krowman (talk • contribs) 14:11, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
 * * duh* Had this long time ago and thought it was my keyboard as my keyboard sucks a lot. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 15:17, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah, I think it might be a sticky shift key. Hitting shift seems to correct the problem. Next time it happens, I'll check whether the text appears in all caps, if it doesn't then that would rule out a keyboard problem. -- Gordon Ecker 18:53, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Holding shift and hitting the number keys is supposed to open the different channels, so yeah, that would make sense. GD  13:54, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I had that problem the other day, it just went way after a few minutes, I kept pressing 2 for Barrage (I was running B/P), and Guild Chat kept coming up. Nhnowell 23:40, 5 July 2007 (CDT)

"Whats this for" - Take Two
Ok. Now the note is perfectly accurate, factually complete, awfully pedantic, and totally unintelligible. Believe me if I say no anon will read it and say "hey, wait a minute..." before actually barging in and "fixing" the values. How about we put a note that simply says something along the lines of "Game update notes and game tooltips use different progression ranges for variable values. GuildWiki uses the in-game values in skill pages, but the update notes are transcribed verbatim. Please consider this before making any changes." and provide a link to a small page in the GuildWiki namespace where the gory details are presented? –Ishmaeel ping/peek 05:41, 24 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Sure. -- Gordon Ecker 06:18, 24 June 2007 (CDT)~


 * Much better, thanks. –Ishmaeel[[Image:lazyeyes.png]] ping/peek 07:39, 24 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Have moved the warning to the right panel because I don't think it is part of the main updates text but a note about them. I do think it needs writing in a simpler way to be useful to average players (and experts don't really need it anyway) --Alexrob 12:48, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I disagree with it being added to the side, the top section is used for extra notes which is why it was put there. It also looks really squished and the icon is totally out of place on the side. This is a notification, it is ment to be visible and so it should be the first thing they read as well as have a stand out icon when they view the article. -- Xeon 12:54, 28 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Moved it back. What Xeon said.  --Fyren 14:20, 28 June 2007 (CDT)

Do newbs know what verbatim means?&mdash; ♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 13:03, 28 June 2007 (CDT)


 * It could say "word for word" and give the same meaning, with more clarity for those who don't use fancy English words like Verbatim. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 13:17, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
 * And it would be nice for the non-native English readers if they don't need to use the dictionary too often (if they use it at all). --- : Jill Bioskop X ( T | C )  15:57, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
 * From time to time, you're gonna have to forgive me for being a smartass. I tend to use fancy words a lot, what with English being my second language :) –Ishmaeel[[Image:lazyeyes.png]] ping/peek 17:34, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I wasn't making a joke about Ishmaeel's use of a big word. (only in cases of malapropism would I do such a thing). I commenting on the minds of n00bs. =D &mdash; ♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 01:05, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Don't use big words where a diminutive one will suffice. 85.81.126.123 16:13, 29 June 2007 (CDT)

June 28th bug fix
when was the last time any1 got into the jade quarry? seriously i've waited for months with nothing.
 * We sometimes organise alliance teams on both sides if someone needs to map it....other than that I've never seen more than 3 players in either outpost. Lord of all tyria 03:56, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I got in through the french districts. sat for like 15 min and finally got in. that's how i got 95 % explored :p Falafel 05:25, 29 June 2007 (CDT)

Monthly cleanup
I removed the May and April articles from the page and from teh table thing. along with teh notice that had to do with the Sunspear and Luxon/Kurzick skills. Archmaster936 (talk | contribs) 13:48, 5 July 2007 (PST)
 * That note is applicable for all changes in (future) skill changes, so i reverted that part; also it wasn't there just for the Sunspear/Faction skills, only the last sentence refers to those. --- : Jill Bioskop X ( T | C )  17:32, 5 July 2007 (CDT)

Stronge bug
I had a strange bug today i was afk with my para in the ring of fire mission, when i came back i was at the char screen and had 0 of 4 chars instead of 9/9 ? When i logged out and then in evrything was normal again. Got a real bad shock tho. Anyone had the same bug ? &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Stive (contribs).
 * It's probably just lag. A huge number of people are logged in this weekend due to the Dragon Festival event. -- Gordon Ecker 17:47, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

Paragon daggers
Has that bug of paragon dagger attack animation not showing been confirmed by many? Cause I am quite sure that is because of corrupt files in the datapack (happened dozens of times with different animations, not showing or using a replacement), and in that case it shouldn't be displayed as a general update note. Prove me wrong, and I'll accept it. No trolling now. --Slvrwolf
 * how that bug was found i dont know...will test later. &mdash; ~ Soqed Hozi ~  06:01, 11 July 2007 (CDT)


 * just tested and can comfirm they DO have animations. They are are the same as normal attack swings however, but are the ame each time and have a weapon aura. This is from the limited amount of testing I can do, but they are always the same and do have an aura. They just use the same swings as are used for the normal attacks. &mdash; ~ Soqed Hozi ~  04:19, 12 July 2007 (CDT)


 * scrap that, they do have individual animations, but fox fangs is the same as a normal swing but with an aura. &mdash; ~ Soqed Hozi ~  04:21, 12 July 2007 (CDT)

1.1Gig update
Wow! I smell GW:EN! Copper Elf 17:19, 17 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I smell it too... -- Nova  [[Image:Neo-NovaSmall.jpg]] --  (contribs) 17:22, 17 July 2007 (CDT)


 * They haven't put anything onto their website, are you sure it was an update and not your first time going into an area? --Gimmethegepgun 17:22, 17 July 2007 (CDT)
 * It's 1.1 gig. and it's "new build, restart gw plox." -- Nova  [[Image:Neo-NovaSmall.jpg]] --  (contribs) 17:23, 17 July 2007 (CDT)
 * 23997 files remaining ftl. -- Nova  [[Image:Neo-NovaSmall.jpg]] --  (contribs) 17:24, 17 July 2007 (CDT)

How soon can we expect this page to be updated when it appears on the GW official site? --Cereseternal 17:25, 17 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Probably when it appears on the site... --Gimmethegepgun 17:26, 17 July 2007 (CDT)


 * Are you sure it's not a bug? They didn't just overwrite all our files?--69.249.50.222 17:27, 17 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I got the info from the official wiki. Ghost1

Just under 9 MB for me. Are you sure you didn't re-download the whole client? --Roland of Gilead (talk) 17:28, 17 July 2007 (CDT)

Doesnt help that my 4MB connection is somehow only downloading at 22Kb/sec 27% done and 1337 files remaining upon trying to log on to my presearing chara Dread Pirate Fargus 17:29, 17 July 2007 (CDT)

I'm at 13.6 MG and still 23k+ files to go. -- Nova   --  (contribs) 17:31, 17 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Updates so far= You can now "Choose best texture filtering" under Graphics and the line that says which attribute a skill belongs to has changed to dark red. And yes I didn't redownload whole client, try running an -image^^ Copper Elf 17:31, 17 July 2007 (CDT)

Damn this one is big, and my character log-ing screen was making my characters' legs turn into solid clumps of lines that reached backwards. Still downloading too, started 10 mins ago ><. Phalmatticus 17:34, 17 July 2007 (CDT)

European English districts have been renamed 'Common' and now I can travel to American districts, even though I'm from Europe. What's the point?
 * Maybe something to do with GW:EN & GW2 and the non-isolated server things. Ghost1
 * Can you really travel from European districts to American, because I can't travel from American to European. Ghost1 18:05, 17 July 2007 (CDT)

Argh 1,454 files remaining, DL speed 20kb/s ><

Yeh, I was running with -image. -- Nova   --  (contribs) 17:43, 17 July 2007 (CDT)

Keep getting err7 when I try to go from Euro to American district, gg anet.

lulz. -- Nova   --  (contribs) 17:45, 17 July 2007 (CDT)

Russian and Polish districts added too. The plus sign in the party menu now goes green when a person is selected.

sadly, Phalmatticus, the problem with your graphics probably won't be solved when the game finally loads - at least it wasn't for me... flesh still stretches to the sky. Lady Ryln 17:50, 17 July 2007 (CDT)

fer all o joo: -- Nova   --  (contribs) 17:51, 17 July 2007 (CDT)

Another thing, the background on the log in screen now has a dark sky, I kind of like it :D. And you were right Ryln, still stretchy ><. Phalmatticus 17:57, 17 July 2007 (CDT)

Shouldn't the background have changed completely? And I still have 21k of files t-go. :( -- Nova   --  (contribs) 17:58, 17 July 2007 (CDT)

I've had a large amount of my friends complaining about something like bars coming out of your body. So I get on Guild Wars and it's on me too. So WTF? Theres an Image of what it looks like.
 * That looks screwed, seriously. Copper Elf 18:14, 17 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah I have the exact same problem, anyone not have this after logging in after the new update? Phalmatticus 18:18, 17 July 2007 (CDT)

I got that same graphical problem. wd anet you bastards


 * Does this mean no Eye of the North for me?--68.44.120.81 18:17, 17 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I Haven't got the graphical glitch thing. Copper Elf 18:28, 17 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Strangely, I don't get this bar glitch when I play on my warrior, and I don't see it on assassins either. Phalmatticus 20:42, 17 July 2007 (CDT)

Anyone else notice that Tyria is a whole lot bigger? This is apparently a pretty major thing, so it'll probably take a while for them to work all the bugs out.--Mirutsa 18:34, 17 July 2007 (CDT)


 * Huh? --Gimmethegepgun 18:36, 17 July 2007 (CDT)


 * He means the map is bigger. Yes it is bigger because GW:EN is coming out. It takes place in Tyria so thus the map gets larger.--[[Image:Signature.jpg|30px]]NanoWarrior  (Talk • Contributions) 18:45, 17 July 2007 (CDT)
 * As of this update, when levelling up, it states how many attribute points you gained Copper Elf 18:54, 17 July 2007 (CDT)

This update is huge... and the cloud changes that I am hearing about most likely are going to mess up my Tyria Antimap. *Sigh* Back to work. That is if my image update ever finishes--Vulpes Foxnik 20:28, 17 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Is it in this update they added a "new" option on the general tab of the option window ? It's about auto-targetting.... Look well.. It has two now... -- TůζipVõrζąx Talk 21:27, 17 July 2007 (CDT)

RE: graphical glitch
just out of interest, like myself with the major grapics glitch, does anyone else who has it run off a laptop, or a PC with the Intel Mobility 945GM chipset? I fear that this is the problem, and assume that Anet have either dropped the compatability with this chipset, or just forgotten about it in the update?! &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.108.11.137 (contribs).
 * I'd say remain calm. They've been fiddling with the textures (and perhaps models too) and this somehow slipped. It'll be fixed in no time, I'm sure. –Ishmaeel[[Image:lazyeyes.png]] ping/peek 18:55, 17 July 2007 (CDT)

yes i have that exact chip hope it gets fixed soon--82.153.199.177 18:58, 17 July 2007 (CDT)

Mine is the Intel(R) 82945G Express Chipset, so that may not be the issue. Lady Ryln 18:59, 17 July 2007 (CDT)

Female Sin Animation
When female sins use a Shadow Arts enchantment spell (I dunno if it's all Enchantments or just Shadow Arts), the animation used to cause a slight aftercast delay. The July 17 update fixed it. Would anyone confirm if it's all Enchantments or not then add it to the update page? Snow Phoenix

WHOOPS GLITCH!!
http://img391.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gw017ol7.jpg to reproduce this go on a char in pre searing and do these steps: 1) observe a guild match 2) press M 3) click ashford abbey and select the district you are not allowed to go (american for EU players and EU for american player) 4) you get d/c with err040 5) you get reconnected on a plain empty account!!! OMG (someone plz write this up^^)
 * OMG GLITCH!!!!


 * I don't think I wanna try this...--[[Image:Signature.jpg|30px]]NanoWarrior  (Talk • Contributions) 18:47, 17 July 2007 (CDT)

really!! it works... wait i add a youtube vid &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 90.6.112.1 (talk &bull; contribs) 19:49, July 17, 2007 (CDT).

It's only temporary untill you relog. --Simondesku 18:54, 17 July 2007 (CDT)

try it out if you dont believe me &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 90.6.112.1 (talk &bull; contribs) 20:21, July 17, 2007 (CDT).


 * I dont want to try this neither. :-P -- TůζipVõrζąx Talk 20:46, 17 July 2007 (CDT)

June 17th
Added /ip command. ??This has been in game for over a year I think, I've used it for many many months.

Gw.dat size
My Gw.dat file, after using -image, is now 3.54 GB (3 803 725 824 Bytes). THis leave only 2 free GB on the partition where Guild Wars is installed. Maybe GW has to go to the gym... lol. -- TůζipVõrζąx Talk 21:08, 17 July 2007 (CDT)
 * It seems that there has been another update because my dat file is now 3 807 947 776 Bytes. I was trying to login and had this tiny update... -- TůζipVõrζąx Talk 21:12, 17 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Guess you should partition or just delete and re-install. Mine is just under 3 gig. --[[Image:Roland_icon.png]]Roland of Gilead (talk) 21:13, 17 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Maybe next month for the redownloading, 'cause my ISP limit download to 20 GB. No, for real, i'm too lazy and i know that seen size difference is a common thing. -- TůζipVõrζąx Talk 21:25, 17 July 2007 (CDT)