GuildWiki talk:Builds wipe

Links
Just to make sure everyone knows what/where everything currently is: More info: -- Peej 20:29, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Builds wipe (this page) - policy describing deleting all builds so that a better replacement build system can be started
 * Post No Builds - aka PNB - policy which only serves to protect the Build namespace in the interim between the build wipe and the replacement system being put into place
 * For clarity, I've included what will be the new policy into the builds wipe article. PNB is no longer referenced in any form. &mdash;Tanaric 19:48, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * No Original Builds - aka NOB - policy describing a solution to the PvP build section which involves only posting popular and successful builds found by watching observer mode
 * Profession archetype guides - recently written policy describing a solution to the PvE build section which involves documenting the basic uses of each profession in a guide format, with links to true PvE builds in user space
 * Builds wipe does NOT mean that all build posting will be permanently removed from the wiki, just that the current system of build posting will be removed in order to put something better in its place
 * Post No Builds doesn't mean you can't post builds on the wiki, just that you can't post them in the Build namespace
 * Both NOB and Profession Guides suggest original builds and build variants can be placed in user space, where they will be categorized and (hopefully) easy to find using template tags, so creation of personal builds will still be allowed

Opinion Poll
The question is: "Are you in favor of Guild Wars:Builds Wipe?"

Voting "Yes" means you are in favor of GW:Builds wipe. Please vote only if you have an opinion, do not add a "Neutral" section. Please also add a comment if you have something constructive to say.

Note: This poll is about the wipe itself, not about the policies that might or might not be implemented after the wipe. Please bear that in mind when voting.

Favor:
 * 1) I'm in great favor of removing the build section.  Though I have many reasons for agreeing with this choice, the most important reason is acuracy.  With as often as Anet is altering, nerfing, and boosting skills, 90% of builds that go up have allready been rendered useless.  If we're to keep up with the build section the people who keep guildwiki running will need to go through every single build and be sure the skills are still acurate on a nearly monthly basis.  The only way I can see the build section becoming feasable -and- reliable, is if some timer was added to each post, that auto-erased them after a month or so.  Otherwise the section will always remain choked full of builds that no longer work due to nerfing.  Also, the build section is only encouraging every to play an assassin and use the lame BOA build.  Ugh, for the love of people with a brain and their own amount of creativity, please do away with the build section. -Avatar of Eris
 * 2) - Echo ftw 17:12, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 3) Thought about it a lot and I vote for reorganizing with interest in getting the section BACK anew. I support the Build Split policy.(Edit: I don't care about namespaces, I care about having a section) I am also of the opinion that user comments are very valuable to any build discussion pages be it negative or positive. Voting for builds is not important but the amount of discussion and comments a build arises is. --BooBoo 17:32, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 4) -Jinkas 17:41, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 5) As might be easy to notice, I favor the build wipe as it will give us a fresh start to implement a new policy. All builds will be backed up, so we wont be losing anything in the process. If the community so decides, it would even be possible to revert the builds section to it's original state, although I hope that wont happen. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 19:02, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 6) Gonna lose some LOLs, but I think I can live with that. --Thom Bangalter 19:15, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 7) Like Thom said, going to lose some massive LOLs, but I think I can live with that as well. Although the builds section in gwwiki is useful, it doesn't cause anyone to actually learn about the skills in the game and about skill synergy. Any person can come on, unlock the elite, buy the skills, then use the build without even knowing what they're doing. Although I love the builds section, deleting it will probably cause people to actually think about what they're doing in their own builds, and possibly *gasp* make their own damn builds.--LolEtc 19:23, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 8) I think Thom put it the best. --Theonemephisto 19:38, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 9) -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]]  19:39, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 10) Anyone who wants to save builds can save them. The builds section is not permanently gone, and even though there is strong critism (even by me) it is still the best way to go; nothing is perfect, and of course any build can be retrieved by admins if necessary. Those who think that losing the builds section will reduce the amount of visitors is correct, however, people who are GWiki "Read Only" users do not know well enough to search Unfavored builds as well when looking for ideas, etc, and usually stick to the favoured section. Our vetting process is flawed enough that many good builds are unfavoured and many bad builds are being favoured.-- Nova  [[Image:Neo-NovaSmall.jpg]] --  (contribs) 19:45, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 11) --Nog64Talk [[Image:Yaaaay.png|19px]] 20:33, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 12) Completely necessary. --Lania Elderfire[[Image:Pinkribbonsig.gif|My Talk]] 21:58, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 13) &mdash; [[Image:DE Sig Test 2.jpg|50x19px]]  *Defiant Elements*   +talk  22:22, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 14) Thelord23 00:34, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 15) Though it makes me sad, I relize that it is necessary. Readem  (talk *contribs ) 00:59, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 16) --Vazze 01:26, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 17) With so many poorly vetted builds, and so many near-duplicates, it is almost impossible to find anything unless you already know what you're looking for. The current system is flawed and needs to be redone from scratch. -Ellisthion 08:05, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 18) Yes. --Buzzer 08:33, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 19) As much as it saddens me to say so yes I am :o(. --JP 08:52, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 20) While I haven't been around and never paid much attention to the builds sections, I trust the ppl making the decision when they say things aren't working. -PanSola 11:12, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 21) I have used the build section myself in the past, but it's turning into quite a mess. edit : forgot to log in. Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|19px]] 14:18, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 22) &mdash; Hyperion` // talk 15:26, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 23) Im in favor of a build section policy renewal.--[[Image:vik.PNG]] ( √ iktor ) 18:51, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 24) The build section needs a wipe - there are too many useless / broken / duplicate builds, and the current system doesn't let us weed out the ones that are poor, they just sort of... accumulate. I personally favor No Original Builds, but this has to come first :P --Phydeaux 19:03, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 25) Normally, I'd unfavor it. But I've had SO many noobish votes on my builds(although more then 75% are favored in favored:unfavored ratio) I want the wipe to start NOW.&mdash;[[Image:Cheese.jpg|50x19px]]  Cheese Slaya  ( Talk ) 21:23, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 26) I certainly am in favour, I don't feel that the wiki should be a build repository for every build that 5 random people feel is ok, it should more highlight notable build that are quite well known. Although, I guess that is a talk for later? As for now, I feel the wipe is a good idea and will give the wiki a fresh start in the build section, and give it the oppportunity to build it up better. El Cerouni 23:31, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 27) I favor too and the good chance to this might by that, that there is limit to add builds and no more can be added until those have been tested Jope16 04:16, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 28) Duh &mdash; Skuld 09:42, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 29) I'm reluctant to vote, since that seems to be one of the primary reasons the Builds section is being trashed in the first place. But what the heck, if my presidential vote is not going to get someone good into the White House, maybe my vote here can at least make a difference. Here's to hoping. Blazeroth 10:07, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 30) Support. Although I didn't give a million arguments, nor do I intend to, the main reason I support is here. --theSpectator talk 19:14, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 31) I'm sure we'll have a better Build vetting system in the future, similar to the offsite testing site, with vetting requirments and such. -- Llednar [[Image:Assassin-icon-small.png]] 13:23, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 32) I agree, the build section has become basically trash. Ive seen lots of really imaginative builds get put down simply because it seems the entire wiki feels the only good build is wammo. Lots of the builds that do make the cut are utter trash. Healing Hands wammo?  Please... --Ryudo 22:01, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 33) Foo.
 * 34) The entire build section here is rather messy and can be done a lot better. I feel that having builds on the wiki is a good thing but it is in the best interest of the wiki to wipe them all and re-do the entire build section. MonsterAar 19:53, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 35) I suppose a fresh start would be nice. With all the changes to the skills i bet some of the builds no longer work anyways.--Aqiunas [[Image:Aquinas_sig.jpg|15px]] 20:47, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 36) I believe that a lot of good can be done with the builds wipe. like it's been said before, most of the "classic/original" builds will survive in some user's archive, and i figure it's also an extremely effective wakeup call to the builds posse (the bunch that i like to nicely call : The hyena pack). These guys need to get the message that just because they can bitch loud doesn't mean they are always right.  And people dissing builds without having ACTUALLY TRIED THEM OUT piss me off. The builds posse need to learn to be civil again, they need to stop being a fucking clique of self pretentious bastards, and frankly having them sit down with the rest of us to rebuild the section on sound policy appeals to me.--Lullysing 21:00, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Calm down. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 04:41, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 1) Quite frankly, I'm tired of people who seemingly abuse the current vetting system without testing the build or giving constructive criticism as well as some rather bad builds getting favored or good builds getting unfavored because of this. --NYC Elite 15:34, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 2) I still think Voting in a more controlled form can work.  May I suggest that you all look at http://www.anycraze.com/deck_start.asp  This is a website for voting on Magic the Gathering decks.  This concept is not that different than voting on GW builds. ImperialMike 15:55, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 3) One more from me. -- Ab.Er.Rant  (msg Aberrant80) 09:45, 12 April 2007 (CDT)

Unfavor:
 * No, there should be a NOB Build section and an OB (Original Builds) section so people can have their cake and eat it too. A consensus will not be reached any other way, as both view points cannot have themselves established without violating the other. Therefore, two build sections should exist, and a build wipe should not take place. Isis In De Nile 17:47, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 1) - Wyvern 18:16, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 2) I'm against a total build wipe as it removes an essential and generally relied upon source of information to the general users. Despite the complaints and "problems" with this area according to some users, a total wipe is unnecessary and counterproductive since the proper builds/guides will have to be made all over again. Furthermore, you miss out on the history of the discussion pages if any and the variants (and the discussion of those variants) which may prove helpful. This isn't a vote on future policy so I'll leave it at this. PlacidBlueAlien 18:46, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Just a quick note: moving an article preserves it history, so we are able to back up everything without losing information. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 19:04, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Retort: Simply moving an article isn't the issue. Backing it up somewhere on someone's user space is also does not solve the underlying problem. It's still won't be widely available as it is now since this is a wipe which means to imply starting over again. If this policy was called "Transformation" instead of "Wipe" and reflected as such, I'd support it in the interim till a total new policy is hammered and agreed to. Not to mention, it kills off the section for awhile. PlacidBlueAlien 19:37, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 1) The section might not be perfect, but it give ideas to players who already understand the basics. Only having "popular builds" and basic guides will not give any benefit but to a small few players. — RabiesTurtle (contribs) 19:21, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 2) Complete and total waste of time IMO. If you're going to get rid of it and make it impossible to post builds, my make a new policy? Just scrap anything related to it. Adzma 20:28, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 3) --Grievous jedihunter 20:38, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 4) Build Wipe=Goodbye to guildwiki and welcome arenanet wiki, atleast for me, if they don't have the same ideology that is. At least don't wipe and ruin this before a future can be shaped out to apease the build comunity. Saving builds into user archives only causes a mess and wont solve a single problem, will ruin the current community and activeness in and out of builds. The current system is better then pissing off almost everyone in the build section. --Sefre  [[Image:Sefresig.jpg|15px|]] 21:30, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 5) The system is flawed, true, but that's not a reason to destroy the entire thing. The current system of US democracy isn't perfect either...should we eradicate it too? (yes, we should-AoE) DKS01 22:22, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 6) Completely idiotic. Unfortunately, most of the people who oppose (and some who support) this aren't going to post -- they're anonymous, and have a lack of faith that their opinion matters. The petition has far more signatures than this. Darkahn 00:16, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 7) Oppose. Alternate suggestion: full-protect all of the existing build pages and allow no new builds.  Nobody edits or submits builds until a policy is decided on.  Mass deletion is not going to make anyone happy; it's going to drive the people who have submitted builds away from the site.  ... Or ... is that your goal?  Hmm ... --Delia Rashesh (talk) 01:24, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 8) I am against it at this time. Although I see and recognize the need that it MUST eventually take place, I feel that performing a wipe before a new policy has been decided upon, and ready to be implemented, is short-sighted, counterproductive, and possibly harmful to guildwiki overall. The reasoning behind this is simple: From my experience and discussion with MANY other GW players, the Builds section is in fact one of the most popular, and useful, stops on the GW-Wiki train. This is despite the Admin's claim to the contrary. My suggestion (if it even matters) is to simply LOCK the section and not allow further updates until the new policies are decided and in place. THEN commence your wipe and rebuild from scratch as you see fit. Talia 01:27, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 9) Oppose w/ caveat. i realize u guys have major problems maintaining. but wiping w/o a plan already in place to replace what was wiped is completely wrong. do not wipe if u don't know exactly what u're gonna replace it with. if u're gonna replace it w/ NOB, then mess around w/ that on the side until u're happy w/ it and then wipe the current version. also, do u realize how crazy it is to have a poll on an issue where one major issue is voting itself? if u care about ppls votes, then why is there a problem w/ the voting system? if u think idiots vote on the builds, then why concern urself w/ this poll? it makes zero sense.Wongba 01:35, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * The poll was started by User:Nova, it's nothing official. Like everywhere else on this wiki (minus the Builds section), the final decision depends on the sanity of the arguments and not numbers of each side. *not even bothering to vote on this one, since it's irrelevant*. --Dirigible 01:40, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * This poll propably has no effect because a date has already been set and the decision is already made but it's important to hear the citizens. --BooBoo 03:07, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Yes, this is purely for opinions of the general public. The results of this poll will not affect the final decision, it is just to see what the majority of the users think. -- Nova  [[Image:Neo-NovaSmall.jpg]] --  (contribs) 15:39, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 1) Move the GuildWiki:Builds namespace to GuildWiki:BuildsArchive disallow edits, and new posts. This allows for the new policy to be implemented for GuildWiki:Builds yet still allows users to view the current builds. --Emo 07:35, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 2) Reasons stated throughout this discussion. -- BrianG 11:33, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 3) Consider creating a legacy builds section, so the helpful build contributions are not lost.  I agree with previous comments that even locking the section and creating a new one with new rules might also be a good option. --  10:43, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 4) While the builds section does need a massive overhaul - there's too much junk like smiting monks and people favoring their own builds - this is not a good idea. It makes the wiki far less useful to me until new builds are up. When I need a build, I alt-tab out of GW, open up all builds for a primary profession in tabs, and browse through them, filtering manually until I get down to a small group, then choosing one for the task. This is completely impossible on the GWGuru forums; forums are totally unsuitable for reference purposes. As for what should replace the current system, perhaps only experts accredited by the Wiki 'staff' should be able to do any favoring/unfavoring, because at the moment the build maker and a couple of people who can't tell their henches are doing all the work can favor a lousy build. That, plus frequent wipes of abandoned unfavored builds, should be able to keep the build section useful. Failing that, a comprehensive GW:NOB is the second best choice. Issa Dabir 14:34, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 5) While I do agree the builds section needs work, I don't think taking it down completely is a good option. It's a bit like throwing out all your dishes and buying new ones after dinner instead of cleaning the old ones.  Sadly though, I don't think any amount of effort on the part of those who want save the builds section is going to work. Those in charge have already decided what they are going to do and everything else is just window dressing. And, going with my analogy, I suspect the new dishes will be PVP only. Anyone have a link for arenanet wiki?  Area 54 09:37, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 6) I have relied on the builds in GuildWiki for a long time and am very disappointed that the builds will be wiped. There is no need for a wipe, only an overhaul on the format to add some features if that is desired. I enjoy the builds here, rather than the other resources, like GuildGuru, which is horribly undermaintained and outdated. Dracon 09:51, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 7) Before the GWWiki, I would have gone with this instantly, but now... why the hell bother? Tired of the Build section? Go somewhere else. There's no point pissing half the GWiki viewers off to accomplish very little. &mdash;  Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 13:49, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Crossed out my vote: something came to me. Oh yeah. I didn't really care in the first place. >.> &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 16:17, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 1) There are a lot of builds in the build section that aren't mainstream, but are creative and effective nonetheless; having them relegated to user space would mean they would be lost to the general public. --Ctran 01:00, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 2) The build section is an invaluable source to new players, even if it needs to be trimmed or revamped it should definitely not be totally erased.--Melonhead901 03:36, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 3) No. --Ressmonkey 19:31, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 4) So let me get this straight, we are voting on a policy that is against voting? We are arguing about a policy designed to prevent arguments. Does anybody else think that's silly? If the "authorities" have ruled that they don't want to be bothered with discussions, then this entire page is absolutely pointless. The very fact that people are heatedly debating it makes it "valid" under the point of view that Guild Wiki is for documentation and not debate. THAT is the only thing worth arguing about. The rest is frivolities. NightAngel 20:36, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
 * No, this really shouldn't happen. For starters, this website has a better feedback (discusion) than all the other builds sites. I would say, most people use this site mainly for the builds and therefore wiki would loose some viewers. Furthermore I wopuld visit wiki much less aswell, leading to alot of abandoned user accounts. Torment 04:04, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 1) If all of the builds in the current builds sections were archived somewhere in an accessible and usable form while some better policy is formulated, then I'd be fine with a builds wipe.  Something obviously needs to change.  But throwing away (or making much less accessible by tucking away on scattered user pages)a bunch of useful information is not the answer, imo.  So for now I oppose.  I'd prefer that the info in the current build space just be locked and/or moved to an archive area while this is hashed out. -- Aubee91 11:54, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 2) I'm disappointed that the Builds will be wiped. I have found the discussions on Build/Talk pages about how skills interrelate very informative and often more important than the recommended build itself.  I mostly play a PvE Ranger - I personally would never have thought of the Feverish Archer or Solo Totem Axe Farmer builds.  I've read that the wipe is a temporary step until new policy is formulated and I can see the problems with voting and with the posting of inferior or duplicate builds.  However, after the months of discussion that have taken place, I can't forsee the development of policy that will satisfactorily resolve these problems.  Finally, the NOB policy supports the PvP player, but does not help the PvE player.  While acknowledging the wipe as an inevitability, my preference is to keep the Builds.  &mdash;  Ali ( talk )  15:53, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 3) To me, the idea of saying "Other sites do builds better, so just go there" is just horseshit.  Can you imagine Yahoo saying "Google is better at searching, so just go there"?  GuildWiki is pissing away a big opportunity here.  Caspian 20:10, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 4) Noooooo!!!! This is the only part of GuildWiki that I even use... I agree with Caspian though ^^ Go4the1 03:08, 11 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 5) Wiping it out is a bad idea.  It should at least be archived until we have a proven new policy with many builds created under that policy.  Having users archiving random builds makes in impossible to search (multiple copies of builds all over the place).  Also I think this site is by far the best for finding builds.
 * 6) I love using the build section as it is.  I'm not a PvE player I only play the PvP game.  Without the Build Section where am I going to get my RA builds =[.  I noticed that the new policies will not have RA builds and this disappoints me greatly.--Magus 00:35, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Maybe you could make your own RA build instead of copying everyone else's? *shock* --Ryudo 09:40, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Why do you assume I don't? I never said I didn't make my own builds you're just jumping to conclusions.  The RA section is great for ideas.  Furthermore by your statement you could say that you're against having a build section entirely due to people not making their own builds.  Now if you could, please post constructively or not at all.--Magus 20:03, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 1) Build section is an amazing thing. It helps newbies as well good players. Anyway the site will lose many accesses after erasion. Mine first. Sjeps
 * 2) Right now I don't see GuildWiki agreeing on a format for the builds section, so I think we should keep the builds section on till then. All the good ideas are chopped down and strangely half of the people think voting is a bad way of doing things.  If GuildWiki does decide on the Profession guides, the builds section would be no more.  The number of Unfavored votes seem to be rising, so i'm going to add mine. Giangn626 19:21, 12 April 2007 (CDT)

Now, where is the db dump
Not sure if this has been mentioned before here, but of course, anyone who disagrees with the build wipe would be free to copy the build namespace and put it up somewhere else, maybe attempting to create a separate build-only wiki. Maybe this would be a good time to make a database dump available (as has been discussed before), before everything is gone? DeepSearch 04:56, 12 April 2007 (CDT)


 * That is a good point. I'll donate space to host such a dump, and I'll talk to Fyren to try to get one on the last day in April. &mdash;Tanaric 18:56, 12 April 2007 (CDT)

Why was this page mostly archived?
I may have missed consensus on this, which is why I'm not simply reverting, but traditionally we only archive dead conversations, not ones that are still underway. &mdash;Tanaric 18:58, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I archived all the old discussion that hasn't gone anywhere. Gem pulled the ongoing poll out of archive (good catch btw, I missed it). The rest of the discussion had ended. Revert if you disagree, but the 160kb page was getting too long to navigate. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 19:09, 12 April 2007 (CDT)

Don't get rid of Random Arena and Competitive Mission Builds
The primary reason I'm concerned with the upcoming wipe is related to the RA and CM builds. I do not see a reason not to include them once the build section is restarted. I personally know many individuals and friends who love these PvP build categories and wouldn't have anywhere to go on the internet for an alternative. The alternatives you gave on the Build's Wipe article are not sufficient. Nothing will compare to the Guildwiki's RA and CM build sections. Please include these sections in any new policy you decide upon as they are as valid as any PvP venue in guildwars.--Magus 01:34, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * i'd argue the RA/CM builds are the majority of the issue. the problem is the over-proliferation of builds (some 1700 unfavored builds, mostly RA/CM), not the play style of builds. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 01:37, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Honorable Sarah, I do not understand why RA and CM builds should be blamed for that problem. That is a policy problem not a PvP build problem.  Do not get them confused.--Magus 20:22, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * See my response to your comment on the NOB page. Anything works for RA. ANYTHING. Just use a solid split-capable build from GvG and you'll find it works fine in RA. There aren't any builds that only work in RA; that's why we don't need to document them. - [[Image:Candle.jpg|12px]] Krowman (talk • contribs) 01:37, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Not everything works in PvP there are builds that do and do not work. There is a myth that everything works.  As you have said before certain builds overlap such as GvG runners.  These builds work well in RA.  You are of course saying that one build would work better than another with contradicts your statements.  I have a hard time understanding the hate with this community against Random Arena and Competitive Arena Builds.  --Magus 20:20, 12 April 2007 (CDT)