Talk:Thirsty River (mission)

Last time I did this mission, there were fewer foes to take on and none came within bow range of the overlooks. I'm not sure if this was just bad luck, or have other people seen this too? If it's an actual change parts of this need updating. Dlanod

Ah right, I did this again quite recently as well, and I'm fairly sure that on the second "arena" the group to the right did stray close enough to take out with a longbow. I didn't notice a difference in the number of foes either, but perhaps you initially did it earlier than me and they've taken down the number since I did it? 00:19, 22 Jun 2005 (EST)

I'd suggest adding that you should bring something to help shut down the monk boss in the final area. He spams orison quite a bit and some groups might have trouble outdamaging it. Something like diversion or maelstrom. Distracting chop/shot can work, but it's a little more random. Also, I'd say killing any sand giants not in your way is a waste of time, since you'll rack up 6% by the time you get to the final area and last three boesses anyway. --Fyren 13:45, 11 Aug 2005 (EST)

I copied the following paragraph and made changes to it, but I did not edit the article directly:

"The first team has three groups. Focus on one group at a time and take out the spell-casters first. Use the timer in order to plan your attack on the enemy priest. At each multiple of two minutes (2:00, 4:00, etc.), the enemy priest if still alive will resurrect all his fallen team members. You need to make sure you kill the enemy priest before the timer hits a multiple of 2 minutes. Then the team is defeated once you have killed all its members." --User Queen of Spades 128.252.10.27 05:44, 11 Oct 2005 (EST)

Alternative approach to the two teams
Pertaining to the following discussion, I have some disagreements:

"The next fight is against two teams so you should focus on one team at a time. The Ghostly Hero will open the door to the teams when he nears it. When the door is opened and you enter the arena enemies will approach you from both sides. Do not rush in right away but back off and wait until the opponents move away again, so you don't have to fight two teams at the same time. You may want to wait until 2:00 before actually initiating the fight. It is usually best to engage the northern team first. After finishing the team, wait until the timer has passed a 2 min. interval (4:00, 6:00 etc) before proceeding to the next team. "

1) With careful planning, you do not have to wait for the right-most team to back off. Just make sure your target caller calls on the left-most team and that your team does not aggro the team on the right. Also, it helps when you enter the gate, to have your team keep to the left. The left-most team of enemies will send one or two mobs out to you and you can engage them there without aggroing the other team. (Note: I always take on the team on the left first, I don't know which direction they are, the article says 'northern team first'.

"After finishing the team, wait until the timer has passed a 2 min. interval (4:00, 6:00 etc) before proceeding to the next team. "

2) The last sentence of the paragraph is one approach. I would break it into a separate paragraph and indicate an alternate approach.

E.g., "After finishing the first team, wait until the timer has passed a 2 minute interval (4:00, 6:00 etc) before proceeding to the next team. Or alternatively, you can give yourself more time by starting the attack anywhere from 15 to 20 seconds before an even two minute interval, e.g., at 3:45 or 5:45. The priest will resurrect any of his teammates that have fallen by the two minute interval, but if you attack a Champion or Avenger (the warriors), you will usually take longer than 15 or 20 seconds to put him down." --User Queen of Spades 128.252.10.27 05:56, 11 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * You make good points. I edited the article to the theme of what you are saying. I do not believe there are "two" approaches though. It's obviously better to start at 1:50 than 2:00. --Karlos 17:05, 11 Oct 2005 (EST)
 * I like how you worded my ideas and consolidated them into the articl. I reedited it to make it even more clear, hopefully. --User: Queen of Spades 128.252.16.235 06:18, 18 October 2005 (EST)

Additional Editing - Primary Mission section
Numerous changes made throughout. --User: Queen of Spades 128.252.16.235 06:19, 18 October 2005 (EST)
 * Minor edit: in the third arena (the one with three teams), the team on the RIGHT is the one that you may rush in and kill the priest first because of a defensive 'gap'. Queen of Spades 07:45, 1 November 2005 (EST)

Cheap way of doing bonus
I just added a cheap way of doing bonus. And in case anyone wonders, I have see it happen once with my very own eyes.

I was playing with my Monk, and wanted to capture Word, so I managed to persuade my PuG to go left first for the third trial, instead of taking advantage of the defensive gap on the right side like any sane group would do. Now, I'm not a really good healer, so all I do is focus on the party health bar and not pay much attention to what's going on in the field (except an eye out for chaos storm), so I didn't really follow what happened. All I know was, very soon after our engagement with the left group, the king died. I don't know who killed him or how he got killed otherwise, but he died for certain. The left group took us 7+ minutes to kill, and by the time we finished the other 2 groups it was around 14 minutes. We were pleasantly surprised when we found out we got credit for the bonus.


 * That's not a "way" to do the bonus, that is a bug. You'll be surprized to know that I got the bonus, TWICE in that manner. Until today, I have no knowledge of how to "normally" do the bonus. Each time I have done this mission, I got the bonus, and the king was brutalized each time. No idea what or how it triggers, but your tip is invalid, I have been with teams that went left first and did not get bonus. --Karlos 07:41, 3 November 2005 (EST)


 * 1. First of all, my "tip" ISN'T to go left first. It is to "somehow to get the king to die".  I only mentioned going left first as part of the whole story of how I came across the observation that if the King dies, the game consider him not having left yet, and that story only belongs to this talk page.  I even edited my own words in the article to remove the word "killed" because I realized I didn't even know if he was killed (either by enemy or by someone in my party) or died due to other unknown causes.
 * 2. Call it semantics, but I don't consider this a "bug". The bonus text stated before the King's spirit leaves (or is driven away), as opposed to explicitly telling you a time limit.  If he (well, his spirit) dies, he didn't leave (or get driven away).  And if the usual way he leaves is by walking away (as opposed to disappear by teleportation, I never had time to pay attention to how he leaves), then in the old days a spirit-spamming group might be able to block him off so he is alive and cannot leave after 10 minutes and bonus credit still counts.  Oversight?  Perhaps.  But "dying does not constitute leaving (or being driven away)" is a semantic choice the current game chooses to go with, and I wouldn't call it a bug.  Can we just leave that part of the note out?  Not labeling it as a bug or not a bug in the article, just stating that if King dies within 10 min the party would get credit for bonus.
 * 3. I am not surprised that you got the bonus twice in that manner. I don't know why I should be surprised, since it agrees with my own observation.  However, if you said your experience was that the King died under 10 minutes, and you did not get bonus, that would surprise me, and THAT would make my "tip" invalid.  Actually, now that I re-read your edit "...at times, the party will receive the bonus if the king gets killed", it sounds like if the king gets killed, sometimes the party gets bonus and sometimes the party does not.  Is that your intended meaning?  If that statement is true, then I am surprised, but your privious entry in this talk page never mentioned king dead in 10 min and not getting bonus, so I'm not sure.
 * 4. Finally, I'm confused about "Each time I have done this mission, I got the bonus, and..." versus "...I have been with teams that went left first and did not get bonus.". Can you enlighten me on the appearant conflicts of whether you always get bonus or not?  I don't think the parts I didn't quote changed the context... -PanSola 15:46, 3 November 2005 (EST)
 * Oh boy... Here we go:
 * 1. Are you saying the bonus objective is to let the king get killed? That they mis-stated the bonus? The bonus says clear the blabla before the king is driven away. You're saying that him being killed is not driving him away? I would disagree with your assessment which makes the bonus completely ridiculous. Just lure the enemies to him and him killed. I'm sure that's not what Arena Net had in mind.
 * 2. Sounds like a bug to me. I consider "driven away" to include getting killed. As such, when he is killed you are supposed to lose your shot at the bonus, not get the reward. More importantly though, do we KNOW that if the king gets killed the party WILL get the bonus. Have you tried that. I don't mean an experiment where you are constantly watching the party list health bars, but a conscious effort to KILL him and see if you get the reward. Try that and let us know.
 * 3. Yes, that's my intended meaning. There are times when he'd be pacing the central area talking to himself, he'd aggro some group and get killed. Nothing would happen, at other times he'd get killed and we'd get bonus.
 * 4. Each time I have done this mission for the NEED to do it (i.e. to complete Ascension) I ended up with the mission and the bonus (twice), which the many other times I have come to this mission (skill cap, helping friends, ..., etc) I have only gotten it once.
 * --Karlos 20:05, 3 November 2005 (EST)


 * And here I come (-:
 * 4. Thanks for the clarification, that really bugged me d-:
 * 3. Interesting, new information, thanks. And when you said "nothing would happen" and "we'd get bonus" that's after you kill the last group, not right when the King's spirit dies right?  Just want to doublely make sure we are on the same page d-:
 * 2. My prior response was based on the MIS-understanding that you also had (multiple) experience with king getting killed and always have the bonus follow when that happened. Now that has been cleared up, your experience serves sufficiently as a counter-experiment that proved I was wrong in my over-generalizing.
 * 1.
 * I'm saying there are different semantic interpretations of what constitutes "driven away".
 * I'm NOT saying that the bonus is to get the king killed and thaat they mistated it.
 * I AM saying that "King being killed (before the hidden time limit) does not constitute being driven away" is one of several valid semantic interpretations.
 * I agree that getting the king to die would not be what Anet had in mind, but then "not having it in mind" does not constitute a bug. It just means it's outside of the box.  HAD the bonus always been received when the king dies (which you cleared up does not always happen, but was my earlier mis-conception), it would just mean the scripting parameters were a bit too literal when seeing the king's dead body there, instead of having moved away.  Being too literal is not a bug, it's a communication phenominom due to intrincacies of semantics.  It WAS a bug when Evennia died before I killed the boss in Defend Denravi and still accomplish the quest (I was with 5 lv15 henchies, really needed her help at the very end), because the goal specifically stated Evennia must survive.  But there are different valid ways to interpret "driven away", so had there been a consistent behavior for Thirsty River regarding how bonus is handled when the king dies before the hidden time limit, whether to give credit for bonus or not, would have been fine and not a bug.  IMHO.
 * Peace & Chaos (-: -PanSola 15:23, 4 November 2005 (EST)

Just want to note that a few days ago I went with a group that did the last part counter-clockwise (went right first). King died, received bonus, but we finished uner 6 minutes anyways so it isn't all that meaningful. - 02:21, 22 May 2006 (CDT)

What a noobish argument, the guy just stated his observations, no need to get on his back about it. Grow up.

10:00 or 9:45?
Ok, we all know the Prima Guide isn't always accurate. In fact, it is often wrong or has outdated info. But did anyone actually specifically checked that the King leaves at 10:00 as opposed to sometime between 9:30 and 10:30 (and thus just assumed it's 10:00)? According to the Prima Guide it is 9:45, and it does seem likely that the 10:00 could be an approximation that sounded perfectly reasonable so no one bothered to check for exact accuracy. Or perhaps at 9:45 the King starts his "leaving talk", but does not completely leave until 10:00, so finishing before 10:00 still count for bonus credit? Just wondering if anyone actually confirmed it, since the Prima Guide has a diff number that is close enough for human rounding errors, that's all. -PanSola 15:52, 3 November 2005 (EST)

Bonus
I would like more information about this bonus. I have no clue when it will be completed and when not. Seems completely random to me. -- 02:15, 22 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Um, re-reading the article in its current form, I find it perfectly clear. The only potential question is the controversy of 9:45 vs 10:00 stated above.  Would it be possible to clarify your confusion? - 02:18, 22 May 2006 (CDT)
 * But I am sure I did not receive the bonus last time when I did it under 10 minutes. The king had al~ready left when we entered or left shortly after we entered, not sure which. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 02:29, 22 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Interesting, how long did it take you on the first two levels? if you remember.  It could be that any fight cannot go over 9:45. - 02:32, 22 May 2006 (CDT)
 * I don't remember exactly, but I am sure it was way less than 9:45 every time. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 03:49, 22 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Hmm, well, I'm out of ideas then. My experience with the bonus matches the article description sufficiently well (except the question of whether it is 10 min or some other time limit).  There's not enough additional information for me to figure out what's going on with your experience. - 04:06, 22 May 2006 (CDT)
 * It's been so long that I cannot provide more accurate info, sorry. Let's just ignore this as a one-time-only bug unless someone else reports similiar things. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 04:07, 22 May 2006 (CDT)
 * I just finished Thirsty River and received the bonus after fighting in the third arena for well over 10:00 - more like 15:00. I went counter-clockwise and took on the Monk boss last, which dragged the timer on and on, as I carried no interruption. Oh, and King Khimaar survived. Therefore I would surmise that (a) bonus has nothing to do with king surviving or not; and (b) bonus time limit, if there is one, does not apply solely in the third arena. Hypothesis: the bonus depends on the total amount of time spent on the mission, beginning from the first arena. I believe I spent under 25 minutes total. Entropy 00:35, 1 November 2006 (CST)
 * I'm pretty sure that the mission total time has nothing to do with it, because I use the exactly same time for everything each time I play through it. The last time playing it the king was dead and I didn't get the bonus. I'm still not sure what you need to do to get the bonus. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 12:16, 1 November 2006 (CST)
 * Oh, just a thought: the king has dialogue. He'll keep chattering away as the timer goes on. Eventually he states, You have failed, the arena has yet to be cleansed and I shall fade or something. A short while after that, the message comes up, "Party failed the bonus. King Khimaar's spirit has left the building." Next time I'm here, I will just sit in the arena and wait to see exactly how long it takes before the fail message comes up. Can't believe I didn't think of this sooner. :S Entropy 19:04, 18 December 2006 (CST)
 * Grah, every time I get to the third arena the king gets killed. :S I'm giving up testing it for now. Entropy 15:13, 28 December 2006 (CST)

Bonus bug no longer works?
I'm a long time player, and had completed this bonus before. I just did the mission again. The King died and it said that the bonus was failed when it happened. Thus the bug has been fixed. You must keep the King alive in order to complete the bonus. Livingston 15:36, 13 January 2007 (CST)


 * I agree. I have never failed the bonus before (have never taken more than 8 min to clear last area), even if the king died.  Today, with 2 players and 4 heroes (one with 10 minions), we cleared the last area in 4:20.  The king quickly died though at about 1:40, as 2 mobs attacked him.  We did not get bonus (non-Tyrian character, so he didn't have mission done before).  Perhaps on the Jan 11, 2007 update they "fixed" the bug in case of the King dying.  Queen Schmuck 17:07, 14 January 2007 (CST)

Bug?
I noticed an odd bug during this mission. In the second arena, I accidentally aggroed both patrols, the ones with the Arcanists and the ones with the Cursebearers. Fearing eminent wipe, I retreated to the entrance. But oddly...I kept hearing fighting! Something odd happened - the two teams actually started fighting one another! The patrols ended up wiping each other out.

I don't know why it happened, and it's not really an exploitable bug since they will just be revived by the priests anyways. But it's interesting to note.

Oh, and speaking of bugs. I disagree with what the notice says: "you can lure the king into a patrol, and then you have all the time you want to complete the bonus". I don't think this paint an accurate picture. Seeing all the talk about the bonus, it's true that if the king dies you might still get the bonus. But I do not think that "if he dies, you automatically get the bonus", so I don't think we should "recommend" luring and killing him. It's a false/unproven statement. Entropy 15:17, 28 December 2006 (CST)
 * I've seen the fight started on purpose before, by someone who claimed to be able to solo the mission with a Warrior. Not disputing his claim, although I haven't seen him do it first hand (we were both helping someone else get through the mission). From what I saw, it did look like he could tank most of the mobs, kill each boss, and escape though. This was also a looong time ago.... --Zdain 16:45, 17 January 2007 (CST)


 * It can still be soloed. About 5k a run, using the bug stated above. -divinechancellor


 * I think that this bug is listed as a TIP in the Guild Wars Prophecies guidebook by Prima XD! --Misfate 20:12, 2 February, 2007 (PST)

Bonus Fixed
I just did the mission and for the first time EVER I saw the words "Secondary Failed" when the king died and I did not get the bonus. Maybe the last update fixed that. --DragonWR12LB 07:56, 14 January 2007 (CST)


 * I just helped some people get bonus. It was VERY close, as the King was instantly under attack the second the gates opened, and was at 1/3 health before I got close enough to drop Life Barrier on him.  It was still iffy until I also dropped Life Bond, Mending (+3) and Watchful Spirit on him.  Only then, after the 4 enchantments were in place, did he start creeping up in health (Signet of Devotion was also used for healing him).  If you have a healing monk dedicated to him (I was also bonding entire party), you might be able to keep him alive, as he takes some serious damage right from the start.  Once the initial attackers are killed, he will no longer be attacked, so you can then leave him on his own.  Doing the bonus this way took some extra time, as it took 5:35 to complete the mission (in last area).  A MM is highly suggested if you take the center (like we did), as you will be fighting 2 of the teams at the same time (center and right side teams).  Queen Schmuck 00:39, 18 January 2007 (CST)


 * I didn't get a "Bonus Failed" or similar message. But I did notice that as soon as the King died, "Goal completed. Press "L" to see your updated Quest Log." appeared. I check the Quest log, and the *BONUS* is struck out, implying that either I failed it or that it was done. Mission ends (time:6 min or so) and no bonus. So I guess that confirms it, the King must now survive to get the bonus. Darn, that's hard... :( Entropy 11:15, 28 January 2007 (CST)

Gonna change the Bonus section to say King needs to survive, since that seems to be the case now. Entropy 18:39, 3 February 2007 (CST)

Maybe they also changed the time limit, 'cause I got the bonus (King still standing in the center and talking) after nearly 11:45 spent in the 3rd arena (bloody monk boss). I'm not sure it's relevant but I spent under 6 minutes total in the first 2 arenas. &mdash;Khudzlin 14:34, 26 April 2007 (CDT)

Yeh, I have noticed that too. I've gotten the bonus in...eh...14 minutes I think? 15:00 might be the definite cutoff now...it's strange though, ANet making it easier by giving more time but harder by making the King's survival necessary. (T/C) 21:20, 26 April 2007 (CDT)

Woah!
Ele, one MM Nec (me), one SS Nec and three heroes (Monk, Derv, Ele)... wailed on these poor Forgotten like no tomorrow... beat 'em all in a flat 6 mins.... easy bonus :)


 * Assassin (me), Assassin hero Zenmai, RC hero Tahlkora, Healing hero Dunkoro, Alesia, Lina. I beat it in six minutes, maybe less. Both Assassins were melee-range. Got bonus...Proves once and for all, Assassins don't suck in PvE! Hmph! Entropy 18:39, 3 February 2007 (CST)


 * (me)Condition Ranger (with Broadhead Arrow and Epidemic), Master of Whispers and Olias with a Jagged Bones MM Setup (post Early April 07 SR Nerf), Razah with Rit Lord Setup (pain, bloodsong, and Union + Spirit Light and Painful Bond), Alesia, and Lina. Rolled through them like nothing....the only team that took longer than 2 minutes to kill was the Monk Boss' Team...and that was pretty easy with the Priest being shutdown with Broadhead Arrow. Just wait for the minions to work their way to the back all the time...easy as hell. Had to be right around 6 minutes for the final stage. Bonus easy, worked the final stage from right to left (to protect the king).Thor79[[Image:Ranger-icon-small.png]] 00:41, 11 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Two SF eles (one me one Zhed), Koss, and MM Olias with Lina/Alesia did the last bit in 5:15. And I used to think this mission was decently hard. Zaboomafoo 01:19, 6 August 2007 (CDT)

Bosses
In the Objectives it says:

Defeat Lyssha Suss's team. (Note: The boss in this team is Custodian Phebus) Defeat Kesskah Shissh's team. (Note: The boss in this team is Custodian Hulgar)

I'm just curious, but has anyone ever found a "Lyssha Suss" or "Kesskah Shissh" boss anywhere? Did they exist in the beta version of Prophecies? It seems strange for Anet to leave the references there if the creatures are no longer in-game. Entropy 19:54, 4 February 2007 (CST)

possible bug
I never had this happen to me before. but as soon as i opened the door to the 3rd area I got a message saying one team had been annihilated. I didn't mind it at first, but the mission ended after i had killed only the first 2 teams, even though i could see the 3rd boss (and priest) on my screen, they were very alive. as was the rest of their team. Has anyone else encountered this before?


 * I have had that happen sometimes. I wasn't aware that the team "counted" and you only have to take out two more teams...since it doesn't tell you which team is the one it thinks is annihlated, I just ended up taking out all three as usual. But it's not an isolated bug. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 06:28, 8 March 2007 (CST)

scam
i must admit, i saw this a long time ago, and i dont totally remember the specifics. but i witnessed a item duplication scam in this mission. a wammo runner tells party members to stay at the entrance zone, while he goes to "activate" the duplication bug. as he approaches the ghostly hero appears in the party menu, but his level seemed to 'double'(cant member exactly what it looked like, or why). the wammo tells the rest of the party that the duplication trick has 'worked', that the change in the ghostly's level proves it, and that it is now ok to drop their items/gold/etc. at this point, wammo talks to ghostly, initiates cut scene, which warps the rest of the party ahead. he then proceeds to run back to the items faster than them and pick them up. i saw this more than a year ago, and the scammer got nothing out of it cept a chitten fragment, but was just thinking about it as i was doing thirsty. thought it warranted a note here -- Vanessa 06:07, 19 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Hehe, should have used Unyielding Aura. Certainly is a clever scam though. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 21:20, 26 April 2007 (CDT)

Hard Mode Bonus
For the bonus in hard mode, you have 14 minutes instead of 10 till King leaves the area. Also as a hint, rush in to middle as soon as you get to him since the warrior boss' mob attacks him. Healing Seed on him should be good enough, but ask your healers to keep an eye on him anyways. Gabe 02:53, 19 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Any other tips for hard mode? I can't seem to kill the supporting groups fast enough to get to the priest. And if I take too many damage dealers we get wiped in the beginning because there's not enough healing. Anyone have any good builds? 76.204.89.239 05:57, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Easier way to kill off priest
This works particularly well against the monk boss, especially with henchmen. If your group is very fast at killing off the support for the boss, have your team tag the boss and if any are surviving, his supports. Have them draw the monk out of spell range from the priest, and have one person dive in and finish the priest. I took a lineup of 3 heroes (dunkoro heal, tahlkora prot, sousuke fire nuker) and the fire and protection henchmen. I was able to finish the last stage withing 6:30 with very poor builds for the monks and no elite for myself. Napalm Flame 18:02, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

Mission Bugged?
I run this mission a lot and usually I go in the order (for the last three) Warrior -> Monk -> Ranger. This is mostly because a lot of people need to cap Word of Healing. However, I find that a lot of the time, after killing the Warrior and the Monk, the mission just suddenly ends after Josso dies. I never touched the Ranger boss. I added a note.

Anyone else experience this? ~ Lutz 20:24, 1 September 2007 (CDT)

See This thread above, perhaps that is the cause? It only happened to me once though, whereas you say it happens a lot. Perhaps something has changed since however long ago I've done this mission. (T/C) 14:47, 2 September 2007 (CDT)

For me, it happens about once every three times I run the mission (which is a lot). It never happens if you kill the Warrior Boss, then the Ranger Boss - it only happens when you kill the Warrior Boss then the Monk Boss (in that order). I don't get any message upon joining the third round (it doesn't say a team has been defeated). The mission just ends. ~ Lutz 13:58, 3 September 2007 (CDT)

Assassin
I just finished this mission with my assassin. And guess what? Spiking builds are GREAT on priests and normal mobs! You can kill him with Critical Agility -> Assassin's Promise -> Black Lotus Strike -> Twisting Fangs -> Black Spider Strike -> Blades of Steel. He will cast Aegis, but he does it after 4-5 seconds, while your chain is deadly and executes in 3-4 seconds. Even monk boss can't outheal him. And doing this you dont need to use the trick with attacking on 1:50, 3:50 and so on. The only bad thing is that you must tell your monks they must all the time remove blind and conditions from you, as two of them are harmful for this method - cripple from Hamstring and Blind from Throw Dirt. &mdash; Abedeus   03:09, 21 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Um...yeah...obvious much? Not trying to be rude or anything, but whenever you need to take out a single mob, it should be obvious that spikers (Azn) are the ideal people for the job. Also, you never need to use that "trick" if your team is competent at all. First arena can easily be cleared before 2:00, second before 4:00, and third before...eh...8:00 or 10:00 if you're slow. And that is with a Hero/Hench party. Go A/R for Antidote Signet also. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 23:25, 21 September 2007 (CDT)