User talk:NieA7/Build:Rt/any Ritual Lord

History

 * (cur) (last) 13:47, 10 April 2007 Limu Tolkki (Talk | contribs) (Hero can use this?)
 * (cur) (last) 09:53, 6 February 2007 24.162.151.143 (Talk) (?Variants)
 * (cur) (last) 09:45, 6 February 2007 24.162.151.143 (Talk) (?Variants)
 * (cur) (last) 09:44, 6 February 2007 24.162.151.143 (Talk) (?16 and 13...)
 * (cur) (last) 17:45, 1 January 2007 Azaya (Talk | contribs) m (?Rate-a-build)
 * (cur) (last) 09:52, 17 November 2006 Fyrenbot (Talk | contribs) m (Talk:Rt/any Ritual Lord moved to Build talk:Rt/any Ritual Lord: bot: build move (moving article to build namespace))
 * (cur) (last) 17:00, 20 October 2006 NightAngel (Talk | contribs) (?16 and 13...)
 * (cur) (last) 11:25, 18 October 2006 Xeeron (Talk | contribs) m (?Rate-a-build - repaired vote section)
 * (cur) (last) 01:45, 18 October 2006 Rapta (Talk | contribs) m
 * (cur) (last) 20:53, 29 September 2006 Labmonkey (Talk | contribs) (?Rate-a-build)
 * (cur) (last) 20:51, 29 September 2006 Labmonkey (Talk | contribs) (?Overreacting?)
 * (cur) (last) 22:19, 23 September 2006 RossMM (Talk | contribs) (?16 and 13...)
 * (cur) (last) 13:07, 22 September 2006 Karlos (Talk | contribs) m (?16 and 13...)
 * (cur) (last) 19:30, 21 September 2006 VegJed (Talk | contribs) (?16 and 13...)
 * (cur) (last) 10:59, 21 September 2006 Karlos (Talk | contribs) m (16 and 13...)
 * (cur) (last) 10:58, 21 September 2006 Karlos (Talk | contribs) m (?Discussion)
 * (cur) (last) 03:22, 19 September 2006 58.168.85.18 (Talk) (?Discussion)
 * (cur) (last) 00:03, 17 September 2006 Akmdw (Talk | contribs) m (Again I fail at typing.)
 * (cur) (last) 00:02, 17 September 2006 Akmdw (Talk | contribs) (?Discussion)
 * (cur) (last) 19:11, 16 September 2006 VegJed (Talk | contribs) (?Discussion)
 * (cur) (last) 15:58, 16 September 2006 Skuld (Talk | contribs) m (EW)
 * (cur) (last) 15:08, 16 September 2006 65.93.166.50 (Talk) (?Discussion)
 * (cur) (last) 15:07, 16 September 2006 65.93.166.50 (Talk) (?Discussion)
 * (cur) (last) 15:07, 16 September 2006 65.93.166.50 (Talk) (?Discussion)
 * (cur) (last) 15:06, 16 September 2006 65.93.166.50 (Talk) (?Discussion)
 * (cur) (last) 01:54, 16 September 2006 58.168.85.18 (Talk) (?Discussion)
 * (cur) (last) 01:52, 16 September 2006 58.168.85.18 (Talk) (?Discussion)
 * (cur) (last) 01:49, 16 September 2006 58.168.85.18 (Talk) (?Discussion)
 * (cur) (last) 01:46, 16 September 2006 58.168.85.18 (Talk) (?Discussion)
 * (cur) (last) 22:28, 15 September 2006 Akmdw (Talk | contribs) (?Discussion)
 * (cur) (last) 16:49, 15 September 2006 VegJed (Talk | contribs) (?Discussion)
 * (cur) (last) 13:02, 15 September 2006 Akmdw (Talk | contribs) m (?Discussion)
 * (cur) (last) 12:45, 15 September 2006 58.168.85.18 (Talk) (?Discussion)
 * (cur) (last) 12:42, 15 September 2006 58.168.85.18 (Talk) (?Discussion)
 * (cur) (last) 08:02, 15 September 2006 Xeeron (Talk | contribs) m (?Discussion)
 * (cur) (last) 23:51, 14 September 2006 Cwingnam2000 (Talk | contribs) (?Discussion)
 * (cur) (last) 23:48, 14 September 2006 VegJed (Talk | contribs) (?Discussion)
 * (cur) (last) 23:47, 14 September 2006 VegJed (Talk | contribs) (?Discussion)
 * (cur) (last) 18:34, 14 September 2006 66.90.73.113 (Talk)
 * (cur) (last) 18:28, 14 September 2006 LordBiro (Talk | contribs) m (?Discussion)
 * (cur) (last) 17:22, 14 September 2006 Akmdw (Talk | contribs) (?Discussion)
 * (cur) (last) 14:52, 14 September 2006 Xeeron (Talk | contribs) m (?Discussion)
 * (cur) (last) 14:28, 14 September 2006 LordBiro (Talk | contribs) m (?Discussion)
 * (cur) (last) 14:25, 14 September 2006 Cwingnam2000 (Talk | contribs) (?Discussion)
 * (cur) (last) 14:20, 14 September 2006 Akmdw (Talk | contribs) m (?Discussion)
 * (cur) (last) 14:16, 14 September 2006 Onlyashadow (Talk | contribs)
 * (cur) (last) 14:12, 14 September 2006 Xeeron (Talk | contribs) m (?Discussion)
 * (cur) (last) 14:08, 14 September 2006 Akmdw (Talk | contribs)
 * (cur) (last) 14:04, 14 September 2006 Akmdw (Talk | contribs) m
 * (cur) (last) 14:03, 14 September 2006 Akmdw (Talk | contribs) (Talk:Rt/any Ritual Lord moved to Talk:Rt/any Ritual Lord/archive 1: Changes in skills warrant new evaluation.... and therefore a new talk apge.)

Rate-a-build
Favored:
 * 1) Stared using this build just before the skill update. Used it after the update, it still works. If you're worried about energy, take Spirit siphon, use Shelter when needed rather than always, or take a battery necro.Labmonkey 16:53, 29 September 2006 (CDT)
 * 2) Have seen this be of considerable use still, even after the skill update, in both PvP and missions (just saw it in Unwaking Waters today). &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 21:45, 17 October 2006 (CDT)
 * 3) It still does its job well. My rit rarely plays anything besides rit lord in Urgoz's Warren and in PUGs. &mdash; Azaya 12:45, 1 January 2007 (CST)

Unfavoured
 * 1) (vote here)

Discussion
Skill changes ahoy. The changes to Boon of Creation and Shelter is a bit drastic, especially Shelter. I've tried it with the changes and it performed really bad. As such, I'm removing the tested status, and wait for some commmunity discussion.--Akmdw 10:08, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Just a note: In case this build turns out to be no longer viable (or only in a drastically changed version), I would put it into Category:Archived builds, since Ritual Lord was definitely a reknown and famous build. --Xeeron 10:12, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

IMO it's time we take this build behind the wikibarn and put one between it's eyes.-Onlyashadow 10:16, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I agree. Whether or not it's just plain old removed or archived is meaningless, just like my Ritualist character. This build and most MM builds are busted badly now. Now I can be a crappy nuker or crappy healer, maybe I should delete my elementalist and monk to save slots!65.93.166.50 11:08, 16 September 2006 (CDT)

I've worked out that with the changes to Shelter and Boon, when you go through the Shelter, Union, Displacement cycle, you have 25 energy less compared to b4 the changes.--Akmdw 10:20, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

I'm not sure if we should archieve this build, since it is still viable at 4 v 4, but it definitely need a better energy management. It's effect on large scale combat as know as missions are useless. -- Cwingnam2000 10:25, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I wonder if it would be best to include something like energy drain or channeling in order to help with the energy management?  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 10:28, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Energy drain would take the elite spot away from RL and channeling means you have to go into the thick of battle, whereas casting spirits usually means you want to be as far away from it as possible. A simple idea would be using the 2 free slots for inspired hex/inspired enchantment, but I am not sure if that will be enough to counter the lacking energy. For PvE, the combination of displacement and spirit of failure might help. Using both at the same time (spirit of failure on a fast melee attacker), should give a good boost of energy. Still tricky to time it and not working well if there are to many attackers (displacement will go down to fast). --Xeeron 10:52, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

Channeling only triggers on casting spells. Binding Rituals are not spells.--Akmdw 13:22, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Ah, you're right, my mistake!  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 14:28, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

One thing I've been testing is Spirit Siphon. It works well at restoring energy, although it feels greatly slower than how my previous Ritual Lord was (which should be expected.) However, it seems like, once I get itdown, energy should stop being a huge issue. Only thing is, I'm not sure if spirits like Shelter, Union, and Displacement need their energy. I know attackers do for their attacks to work (or at least, that's what I was told) but do passive spirits need energy too? VegJed 19:47, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Nevermind, my source was wrong, I just checked the page and it said spirits don't need energy, in which case, this skill works! VegJed 19:48, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * The spirit siphon page says you get only net 5 energy per cast on a (full) spirit. Have you tested whether spirits regain their energy (meaning, after waiting a bit, do get energy again from the same spirit?). Also, is that enough to deal with the casting cost? --Xeeron 04:02, 15 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Spirits do regain their energy, I've cast Siphon on a Shadowsong that I had already used it on before, and got energy return. However, depending on the spirit, you might not have enough time to let the spirit recharge (Displacement goes especially quickly.)  Basically, what I do is place a spirit, cast Spirit Siphon on it, run to a different location, place spirit, cast Spirit Siphon...etc.  While its possible to cast Spirit Siphon on a spirit twice, the only time you really get a chance to use it is on Shadowsong (if you carry Shadowsong with you, I normally do for melee protection.)  The issue with this is that, by the time you've cast your third spirit, Shelter has already recharged (this technique is a lot slower, you used to be able to use a 4 spirit cycle).  Not only that, but Ritual lord is about to run out, so when you cast Shelter again, you need at least 30 energy, so that you can recast Ritual Lord during Shelter.  Some issues, but I'm trying to streamline my technique and see how much is just getting used to the new build.  VegJed 12:49, 15 September 2006 (CDT)

I tried this build and got 18 wins in a row on my third try out on random arenas, it also works well in GvG protecting your allies, the energy seemed to flow good, that is untill you loose rit lord or boon of creation. With the new updates (September the 14th) i don't know how the build will work, the spirits look cooler, but cost more and some like the important shellter take more damage due to the update and also costs 25 mana instead of the orginal 10 (sorry i said 15 before). To add on top of this boon of creation only gives you 6 mana tops per 'creation'and rit lord's recharge boost is decreased. The updates weren't all bad in fact they are quite the opposite, spirits now take quicker to recharge so i guess this may balance the downside of Ritual Lord. The energy flow is somewhat not as good but the recharge of the spirits can at times make up for it. The damaging spirits also do more damage, Pain does 5...30 and only takes 30sec to recharge [Poo]September 15 2006 22:02 Australia(EST)

The change to ritual lord doens't matter at all, as a lot of the spirits got their recharge time reduced. Shelter also cost 10 energy before.--Akmdw 09:02, 15 September 2006

I've taken a look at Spirit Siphon, and it needs at least 10 channeling to gain any meaningful energy, and even then it's still a measly 3 point energy gain, probably not worth the attribute points for 1 skill.--Akmdw 18:28, 15 September 2006 (CDT)


 * It may be a "measely 3 point energy gain", but while using this skill, I don't really notice any energy management issues. Here's my bar:

By using my strategy above, I always have around 30-35 energy by the time my cycle gets back to shelter. It may be slower and weaker than the original Ritual Lord, but hey, the build was nerfed, what do you expect? VegJed 15:11, 16 September 2006 (CDT)

I'm not expecting the build to be as good as it used to be, but you have to balance wether the changes will make the build unviable. Will the reduction in spawning power and communing still make the build worth it? Are there any other skills that should be added since we have 10 channeling. If you said painful bond, then should we merge it with rt/any Spirit Bomber? Anyway, I will test your build more indepthly.--Akmdw 20:02, 16 September 2006 (CDT)

I thought of using spirit siphon then forgot about it ill try the build variation above and check how it works. [Poo]September 19 2006 14:21 Australia(EST)

Overreacting?
Hah. I didn't see this discussion when it happened. But I don't see how this build is useless. I just played my usual Rit Lord and did fairly well. The only exception was Shelter. Shelter is just dead. You can't cast it in the middle of a fight (as you have between 20-30 energy) and thus you just put it down and pray it lasts till the brunt of the fight is over. Still, I was spamming Union and Displacement pretty well. Granted at times life was hard (especially with Boon shattered) but overall, still saved a lot of Butts (and in the FoW no less). --Karlos 06:58, 21 September 2006 (CDT)
 * It still works, but the skill change did what it looks like it was supposed to: Stop you keeing everything up at all times. Personally, I'm more annoyed about 25e Recuperation. Build still works, it still protects your allies well, but you have to choose what to use when. I take Soothing, and put that and Displacement up to deal with a wave of meleers, and Shelter against spikers like Assassins and eles. Union helps at any time. Shelter could probably do with a reduced cast time to compensate for the energy cost, so that it's more of a counter to heavy pressure.Labmonkey 16:51, 29 September 2006 (CDT)

EW
List as default? &mdash; Skuld 11:58, 16 September 2006 (CDT)

16 and 13...
Ok, so has anyone done any math as to why it's Spawning Power 16 and Communing 13? I go the other way around and it works just fine (less energy from Boon, slower recharge from Ritual Lord, but sturdier more effective spirits). i.e. Any math comparing spirit health and longevity? --Karlos 06:59, 21 September 2006 (CDT)

I personally never used the point set-up described here. I mean, generally I had spawning as the highest attribute, but the points were set exactly like my build above, except with Restoration instead of Channeling (I used to bring along Recuperation too, but those days are over. Dang, my build was doubly nerfed.)  I haven't seen any math done before, but I believe it was done to optimalize the recharge of Ritual Lord (if you can recast a spirit quickly, longevity doesn't really matter.)  However, since we seem to be trying to rework the build, that might be changed now. VegJed 15:30, 21 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Ok, so here is my attempt at doing the math:
 * 16 Spawning, 13 Communing:
 * Shelter: Level 7 = 220 Health + 140 (220 x 64% spawning) = 360 health, takes 49 damage per spike, so lasts for 8 spikes.
 * Union: Level 7 = 220 Health + 140 (220 x 64% spawning) = 360 health, takes 15 damage per hit, so lasts for 24 hits.
 * Displacement: Level 9 = 260 Health + 166 (260 x 64% spawning) = 426 health, takes 60 damage per evasion, so lasts for 8 evasions.
 * 13 Spawning, 16 Communing:
 * Shelter: Level 8 = 240 Health + 124 (240 x 52% spawning) = 364 health, takes 43 damage per spike, so lasts for 9 spikes.
 * Union: Level 8 = 240 Health + 124 (240 x 52% spawning) = 364 health, takes 15 damage per hit, so lasts for 25 hits.
 * Displacement: Level 11 = 300 Health + 156 (300 x 52% spawning) = 456 health, takes 60 damage per evasion, so lasts for 8 evasions.
 * Hmmm, so minimally sturdier spirits, but more energy and recharge. I guess it's time to switch. :) I'll try it the other way around and see. --Karlos 09:07, 22 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Wow, I had no idea there'd be so little difference between the two. I've always used 16SP / 13C because it meant I could switch to 13Res if needed and not need to buy another headpiece, but looking at those figures maxing spawning seems like a no-brainer. RossMM
 * Why, oh WHY would a Rit lord not use two superiors!? Are you really planning on going to combat and wand all your foes to death? Seriously, what the heck is wrong with people. Its 16 15, whatever you choose!

Variants
Added Spirit Siphon under Variants section as it is what I, and from the discussion, others have found very useful for managing energy. At 3 energy gain it doesn't seem like much but used after every casting of a Spirit it definately winds up helping, and winds up being equal to roughly 2-3 pips of energy regeneration.Note Spirits actually aren't selectable for about .75 seconds after being created. By casting 2 spirits in a row and targeting the first while you cast the second and then using Spirit Siphon on the first before moving on to cast the third spirit while targeting the second you can stair step your way through spirits as fast as they will recharge while only loosing 1/4 of a second between casts to regain energy. By doing this i found I could cast spirits as fast as they would recharge almost indefinately without any energy issues.

Hero can use this?
I put this build for Razah with optional skills Mighty Was Vorizun and Shadowsong. Works really great, nice energy management from Mighty Was Vorizun (if Razah keeps it on always) and protection from meelee fighters 'cos of Shadowsong. Dunno is Shadonwsong so needed but nice protection to party anyways. -- Limu Tolkki 09:47, 10 April 2007 (CDT)