Talk:Game updates/Archive19

No redirect
Archived.--ìğá†ħŕášħ 19:02, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Archive box'd. That's wierd, I totally didn't get an EC despite that edit. [[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]] Entrea   [Talk]  19:02, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * 't's happened to me too.--[[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg]]ìğá†ħŕášħ 19:06, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Aaaaanyway. What do we want to yell about Izzy messing up now?[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]] Entrea   [Talk]  19:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I found that topic about wether it was the biggest update quite interesting. So, on that topic: Sorrow's Furnace update was bigger. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  19:08, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Not implementing a skill which deals damage based on how much money you throw at your target. (1g=1 damage) I find this discriminatory against people who just play the economy and never really learned to play the game!--[[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg]]ìğá†ħŕášħ  19:08, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Quote: Is it just me or was this update the largest skill change in guild wars history? I believe it was.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]] Entrea   [Talk]  19:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Reading is hard :P *runs* --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  19:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Er... did an entire archive come up in 5 days I've been gone? That's ridiculously lame. I can not be bothered to read it all, though I should. --Shadowcrest  20:19, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That archive took a month to make --Gimmethegepgun 20:52, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, good. I just looked at the section titles, and, not remembering any of them, thought all of them were made about the last game update. --Shadowcrest  21:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

New Build 8/14
New build's available, no update info on main GW site yet. Any idea what it is, if anything noteworthy? - insidious  420  20:50, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Could just be implementing the weekend event. Although there where about 120 or so files.--[[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg]]ìğá†ħŕášħ  20:54, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Might've fixed the shout names --Gimmethegepgun 20:58, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Nope --Gimmethegepgun 20:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Confirmed, quotations marks are still sans.--[[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg]]ìğá†ħŕášħ 21:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * (EC) Someone was typing out the update notes in-gamem and there were skill updates. Glimmering mark no longer ignores armor is the only one I was paying attention for :P  &not; Wizårdbõÿ777  ( talk ) 21:00, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, I love how updating guild wars is like the devs launching a DoS attack on their own website.  &not; Wizårdbõÿ777  ( talk ) 21:09, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * No more guild thieves. And the bodyguard no longer fires arrows with a staff. Interesting.  &not; Wizårdbõÿ777  ( talk ) 21:11, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Once again...
I'm starting to think that the timing for new updates to be added to the game are directly related to the times when I find myself on an outstanding AB team...--Dosearius 20:58, 14 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Lol. You get the new build message while in a match ? I hope it doesn't cause people to leave... — TulipVorlax 23:26, 14 August 2008 (UTC)


 * No one left the current match, but the game won't allow a new match to start if a new build is available.--Dosearius 23:42, 14 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Lol, yeah, i was trying to get into the random arenas....--Bastthegatekeeper 01:59, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Unlisted change
Back at the Zaishen Challenge and Elite areas the IWAY team has had names added to the rest of the warriors now. Before it was only Iziuh of the Zaishen, now there are others. Not really important, but still a change in the game. -- IGN: Angelo Silverwolf
 * Scratch that, doesn't apply to Elite, but Challenge alone. -- Same as above


 * Alwys been that way for challenge afaik. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  19:27, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The challenge warriors have always had names, while in the Zaishen Elite, Iziuh was the only 'named' warrior. Absolutely nothing has changed here.--Dosearius 20:27, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah.. Apparently it's just gone unnoticed. At one point the Challenge teams didn't have names, then the IWAY's didn't, then they've gotten them, but apparently... I've just not noticed. Humblest apologies for false pointer. -- -""-

Hmm...
Granted lots of people complain about skills, but what about control options... where is our beloved next minion and closest minion keys? --68.102.139.94 21:57, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
 * And let us choose our minions' targets. Tbh, it's like having an army of devoted undead followers that just don't listen. =/ ــѕт.  мıкε  22:23, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It would be too OP if you could choose their target, and they ARE mindless anyway. But a minion display window or something would be good --Gimmethegepgun 00:48, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I agree about target picking, but a minion panel would really be useful. It could be like the party panel, but with the degen arrows visible for each health bar. That's the main reason why I gave up on minion bombing, really - it's too hard to switch between minions for spell targeting. 72.67.218.162 17:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, it's all given to heroes now, since they do it so much better than humans for that very reason. A collapsible "Summoned creatures" panel for minions and spirits would be nice.  Alas, not gonna happen, probably...  Maybe in GW2, though.  (wishful thinking)  However, my minions for some reason do rush towards my first target of the mob (I have to wand it or cast a spell on it before they engage something else), but after it's dead, they pick whatever's next to them.  I'm even able to pull some of them out of a fight sometimes if I run away.  So they're only mostly mindless, but not all the way.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 18:23, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I think that every Korean with Über Micro Skillz would display his skills by perfectly micro managing every single minion to Über pwnage. For the rest of the world: "Nah, to difficult". Alleycat! 23:16, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree that better interface control for selecting, managing, and reporting (like in the health bars sense) for minions should be implimented. It really doesn't matter regarding the "uber micro players all ready developed minion skills"... cause their skills only deal with poor usability.  There is nothing conceptually or balance wise wrong with this... and could actually make a player MM more desireable than a hero.  I'm just talking usability to let give you reporting on your minions, and let you select them to manage via the skills you use on them.  I agree with others that management via telling them were to move or who to attack should not be included... as it breaks from the concept of the game (as well as possibly making them overpowered).  But on the other hand, if there were a "give minion brain" elite skill that made them follow your target and party flag... that might be ok.  What's really surprising is that you never know when ANet knows of a problem but does nothing about it.  For example, with the last round of changes... they improved usability of Ursan Force.  I honestly thought it was supposed to be annoying cause of the overpowered mindlessness of playing Ursan.  But seeing them call it a bug made me go "really?  and it took you THAT LONG to address what you consider a bug when you had plenty of time to jack with poor skill changes?"  Call me crazy, but bug fixes should come before balance and additional content (not that I care about this particular bug, just the fact that they considered it a bug).  --Mooseyfate 13:17, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * And speaking of control options, I'd love to see them implement a "retreat" function you could bind a hotkey to, and that your heroes/henchmen would stay engaged with the enemy if you need to kite around until you hit the "retreat" key at which point they would start following you. I know you can use the flags repeatedly, but that gets annoying at times.  When I need to temporarily kite from an attacker, I don't like it when my heroes stop attacking because they assume I'm running from the battle.  (This is one of my "wish list" items at the bottom of my user page.)  Shadowlance 20:48, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * If something should be on the "wish list" it should be a switch-button in the party formation box to change the ordering of the partymembers. Currently it is "Leave" -> "Invite" -> "Leave" -> "Invite" etc Alleycat! 14:02, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed - although if they added that functionality, I'd say only the party leader should have the ability to rearrange the party. Shadowlance 18:38, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Right-clicking the name could open a flyout with "promote to party leader". --◄mendel► 15:09, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Undocumented update?
Yesterday and today I had to download files too but nothing to read about it here. Does that happen often? --Birchwooda Treehug 05:35, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * For weekend events it happens fairly often. It didn't always though. There used to be updates waaay back in the day. &mdash; Powersurge360  05:38, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Nowadays I think they plan weekend events weeks ahead, and the game downloads them weeks early. Then when the time comes, some script initiates the event without any download on the day it starts. That's why NPCs and stuff will magically appear and disappear in towns during holidays. In events past there had to be a separate update to add and remove all the NPCs. So in short, I don't think it has anything to do with weekend events. Could just be some random things missing on your computer. --98.213.150.63 05:53, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I also had at least TWO updates today, none that are mentioned in the notes. And as I regularly use -image, this strange indeed. Last second update: login servers seem to be down at least for me. [[Image:VazdeSig.png]] 10:55, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I had to download to updates to. after the first, i coulndt login because the servers didnt connect. rerun client, it started uploading another update. aftherwards I could get a connection to the servers.Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 12:49, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * i just got something pretty unusual, it said "balthazar, bless my strength, teach my hands to war, and my fingers to fight" huh? if this is redundant, i'm going to kick my own ass Omnipresentgnome 14:08, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * See Ebon Vanguard Sniper Support, and ready thyself for kicking. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 14:09, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * i never noticed that before xD... so much for that little theory *kicks own ass* Omnipresentgnome 14:12, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Dito. Had an update again, followed by a login error (058), closed the client and opened it again and another update occurred and login worked. I also do often -image, last time right after my first posting about the undocumented update (just to be sure but nothing more loaded). Also annoying, all the login errors I had in 3 years, always telling me that it must be my connection, my router etc and blah was how many times my fault? Yes, zero. The error messages clearly should be changed and the fault blamed to the right party, as in "Sorry we fked something up, please try later" --Birchwooda Treehug 05:30, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Just had 058 again and it wouldn't go away, so I did the -Image again and it downloaded several little files over and over again. At first I thought it may be broken and now stuck in a loop but after the 5th time it stopped and obviously was done. Then starting the normal client again and login worked. WTF is up? oO --Birchwooda Treehug 05:33, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * For chrissakes, Anet, tell us what you changeeeeeeeddddddddd! The larry 18:11, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Wow, I just downloaded a file and panda asked me : you want to give this permission or not and I said yes as always. But now my Guild Wars client is stuck at that 0, which normally has to download the files. -Rob
 * Don't talk to pandas ;) Tried the -image command? Isn't Panda the anti-virus thing? Why would it interfere with programs accessing the i-net? --Birchwooda Treehug 05:35, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Panda is also a firewall, anti-spyware... it has the works. (I loved it, until for reasons still unknown to me it started causing memory errors and blue screens and I had to uninstall it to be able to do anything on the computer... after 5 years of using it it does something like this to me... I though we where friends T.T) &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 09:12, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I hadn't logged into GW in a couple days, and I had no updates. Something fishy is going on here -- [[Image:Isk8.png]]   I~sk8   (T/C) 09:17, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * There were two changes to the login messages. --◄mendel► 14:46, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

hai, what's this?
"* Smiter’s Boon: recharge time increased to 90 seconds, Energy cost increased to 25, duration reduced to 5 seconds." eu.guildwars.com doh is it that hard to remember to sign? The larry 15:04, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That's super nerf of death, if that's true, that skill is dead.--[[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg]]ìğá†ħŕášħ 15:15, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Reliable sources tell me it's due to smite teams moving into the GvG meta. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 15:17, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That looks quite legit, but I'm not going to update the page until it gets posted on www.guildwars.com.--[[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg]]ìğá†ħŕášħ 15:20, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not an update until it's live imo. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 15:20, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * They'd have to completely change its functionality to warrant a nerf like that, tbh. And besides, after the GvG changes, haven't Smiters become a little less popular? They probably made a mistake, or they intend to revert the nerf (maybe it's for a tournament or something???) ــѕт.  мıкε  16:06, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * What if they aim to reduce the effectiveness of countries? like propaganda, most of the time it isn't true but people will notice, idk...65.31.236.171 17:37, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * They should nerf Koreans. XD ــѕт.  мıкε  18:46, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I believe this is the most powerful swat of the nerf bat anyone one skill has endured thus far.--76.93.3.132 20:28, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * What about that skill that killed everyone in 30 seconds or something? [[Image:Bunneh.jpg]] ~Bunny  20:37, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Umm..What about it?--76.93.3.132 20:57, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The nerf to Smiter's Boon is too extreme to be permanent, imo. ــѕт.  мıкε  21:09, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Signet of Ghostly Might killed anyone in 10 seconds, not 30. 99.142.40.185 21:11, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Not going to be permanent, just taking it out of play for a bit.--Relyk 23:06, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * SoGM was bugged anyways, I would say it doesn't compare to this nerf. I laughed so hard when I read this I nearly choked. This skill is probably the most useless in the game now, especially in light of the recent {E} buffs. --Franzwald 23:17, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed - not going to be permanent. It is reminiscent of when they temporarily added exhaustion to many Ritualist skills to combat some overused behaviors they didn't like.  They over-nerf to address the "problem" while they figure out a better more permanent balance.  Shadowlance 23:39, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

ROFL, 25 energy for 5 seconds double divine bonus and a 90 sec recharge time - aye oO Is 1. April now twice the year? Do ANet employees have to get their brains surgically removed before they sign their contracts? My poor smiter boon ab monk got already crippled with the nerfed Signet of Judgment, now it got killed. *shrugs* Joins the fked up Paragon skills. --Birchwooda Treehug 07:58, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Your poor smiter's boon monk has been breaking GvG and TA for a while. Hopefully the skill will get rebalanced after they think what to do with it. Same as p-leak. Lord of all tyria 08:13, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * If it's "been breaking GvG and TA for a while", then you'd think they'd have had plenty of time to think over a fix to it, instead of intentionally removing it from existence --Gimmethegepgun 14:35, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * They may as well have changed the description to: "Lose all energy. For 60 seconds, all of your attributes are set to 0 and you cannot attack."  It would get just as much use as in its current state.  Either that or: "Please do not use this skill because it is broken and we don't know how to fix it."--Light of Homsar 17:13, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * isnt this nerf just for the double fame weekend, so that we wont c thatskill in HA during the weekend? Because i dont c it as a permanent nerf, well not this kind of nerf becaus if this is permanent it is just as dead as prince rurik^^ Student of goa 15:16, 23 August 2008 (UTC)student of goa

Hero AI
Is it just me, or have hero MM's gotten a lot dumber? Olias wasn't exploiting every corpse available anymore. Nor did he make much of an effort to keep his minions alive with Blood of the Master. Lazuli 23:20, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I concur--Olias does not use nearby corpses without you manually clicking on his skills to make him use them (and he did not have Death Nova equipped) and we were all but standing on the corpses! GW-Susan 16:59, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * MMs were always bad with BotM (because they prefer to use Death Nova, so disabling Death Nova, or microing BotM could fix that), but they might not be exploiting corpses because they could be outside of their aggro bubble, which may be the result of "Updated the AI for Heroes and henchmen to fix an issue that caused them to sometimes attack enemy targets from too far away. " =/ ــѕт.  мıкε  23:50, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I've always noticed their lamentable preference for Death Nova, but now it's just gotten worse. The corpses in question were well within the aggro bubble though.  Olias was running 7/8 and had plenty of energy, yet saw no need to cap out his minions, even when combat was over.  Perhaps it's an aberration.  Lazuli  02:39, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Heroes aren't keeping up with the spells. My SS would not cast Mark of Pain or Barbs for any reason, and my MM won't maintain or build his army. I guess it's something to do with the "improved AI to recognize when the player is retreating" because when you retreat is the only time a hero will abandon normal spell casting like that. &mdash; Powersurge360  07:33, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


 * So is mere moving and avoiding getting hit "retreating" now? Annoyed me before already that when I move out of AoE dmg, all henchies (except Devona) abbort their attacks... while when they are in AoE dmg they run out, run in, run out, run in etc. -.- --Birchwooda Treehug 08:02, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


 * While trying to improve this "retreat" feature or whatever you wanna call it, they're fucking it up worse and worse. O_o If they really wanna make it viable, just make a damn retreat switch on the compass to tell henchies to abort, and if it's not tripped, then you can kite all you want and the henchies will stay engaged. How hard could that be?.. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 08:07, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I've always been SO annoyed that when I kited because I'm slowly degening to death with a Hammer Warrior ready to knocklock me for 9 seconds on my tail, those heroes and henches suddenly stop fighting and run along with me, ignoring the fact I'm degening, and ignoring the fact there's a big bunch of monsters still wanding/casting spells/pewpew'ing. I wonder if it got any worse now >.> --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  10:01, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I notice too that Olias dont maintain his army but for me it's when combat is over. — TulipVorlax 11:11, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Hero monks no longer use Unyielding Aura correctly. They won't dismiss it; they'll just recast. And sometimes they won't cast it at all. GG updates. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 11:40, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree this AI update is terrible - I really hope they undo it. I'm seeing the same thing with my MM heroes.  Just for testing I took them into an area where there would be plenty of corpses just to watch how they would use their skills without my micro-management.  Both during combat and after combat we'd stand there right next to multiple exploitable corpses and the heroes would just sit there.  They would even re-cast Dark Bond while having zero minions while an exploitable corpse was sitting right next to them.  Also I had complained earlier that the AI was a bit too aggressive and the warrior hench (like Talon Silverwing) had rushed ahead too often.  I'd gladly take that old behavior back though.  The new behavior seems much too passive.  I'd often stand just outside aggro range and then call a target so my warrior hench could run in and draw first aggro.  Now they no longer do this.  Even when I call a target they often won't attack until I actually make the first attack.  Shadowlance 12:24, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * What did you expect? It's not like they'd test an update in PvE before they sent it out. --Macros 13:01, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Apparently, not everyone is experiencing problems. Some people on the official wiki seems to think there's no problem or the problem is us, somehow. One person said "your heroes dont like you". — TulipVorlax 13:44, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


 * May depend on the Hero? I've always felt some heroes acted different than other heroes of the same profession >.> Maybe I'm paranoid. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  13:46, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Rose of Kali's suggestion for a retreat flag (or even a hotkey) would be excellent, but I doubt we'll see anything of the sort with Guild Wars 2 in the works. We do need a solution, though, be it an AI rollback or something else.  As for the official wiki users not experiencing these problems, I think they just aren't looking hard enough.  When I play PvE, I play nigh exclusively with henchman and heroes.  I don't think I'm being arrogant when I say I notice subtle changes in their behavior between updates. Lazuli  14:34, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * As an added note, hex removal usage seems to be down. I'd rather not have to micro every little thing.  And on henchman, that's not even an option...  Lazuli  14:45, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * My Healer heroes suck now... They just let me die whereas there was no foe, I was killed by degeneration from 120 HP to 0... I saw them not healing well during battle, so i let them do what they want without clicking on the good button to heal me. But they are a bit TOO passive now... 90.28.2.174 17:50, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Seeing the heroes behave as if they had pet AI was just ... weird. Unfortunatly, I couldn't use my beastmastery skills on them. :-( --◄mendel► 15:11, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Heh, I guess there's a reason I got back into D2 just a few days ago. Furyzon FTW!  I'm telepathic and saw this horrible update string coming...  Someone said earlier that we can't hope for the "retreat" button because they're busy with GW2, but then again, aren't they busy with fucking up hero AI instead?  I'd say it takes an equal amount of time.  Or, they're so busy with GW2 that they're completely braindead whenever they do something for GW1, like Smiter's Boon or the AI update...  O_o  I'm wondering why they even bother?  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 18:13, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I just think it's probably easier for them to modify scripts and codes than it is to alter the HUD. I could be wrong.  Until this update gets rolled back, you'll find me in the club. Lazuli  20:11, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It would probably be easy to have a button that switched henchies between the cluster mode that they stand in when there's no enemies and their "kill stuff in range" mode. That would be incredibly useful for getting past enemies as well as for retreating.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]] Entrea   [Talk]  21:37, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * More micro buttons on the compass (or even on a new panel) would be a GODSEND for players who H/H often. Buttons to break from combat, a toggle switch between focused fire and letting them pick out their targets, even a button to coordinate a spike! This would radically change hero battles, so extensive testing would be needed, something that's not very likely to happen.Zaidyn Kaen 23:44, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * A scatter button would be excellent, especially for eotn. Or just an option to never have your henchman or heroes stand adjacent to you or one another once combat has begun.  But I'm not crossing my fingers.  Maybe this new update fixed everything, or at least reverted it.  Lazuli  00:02, 23 August 2008 (UTC)


 * There was an update when i got into the game at around 19:30 (New York time) and another one around 21:15. — TulipVorlax 01:28, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The bug fix does help - thank you ANet. Now at least my heroes or hench will rez someone outside of combat on their own, and heroes  with an MM build seem to be back to normal.  Shadowlance 01:55, 23 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I left my char AFK as I had to get some sleep and go to work after a caravan vanquish through the desert, when I got back from work (about 17 hours after AFKing) Whispers was happily Death Nova'ing his 9 minions. No complaints here. 83.146.208.186 12:27, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

doom and gloom
i've been experiencing extreme lags as of late, so have most of my alliance members, and the group i tried to complete duncan the black dungeon with said that their alliances had been experiencing massive lag as of late, our group didn't make it, we were almost to duncan when the whole party lagged out and got disconnected at the same time...i HATE lag Omnipresentgnome 21:27, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Same thing has happened to my party on many occasions. Huge random bursts of lag in AB as well as in other High End PvE areas. or the always nice, lag in HA while a team is spiking your team and you're the infuser.--72.189.85.47 02:44, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I was getting a lot of big lag spikes last night as well.(luckily when i wasn't doing anything important.) Ebolax 12:58, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I was farming Balth faction against Zaishen last night, with a Hero team of mass AoE. I'd enter battle, it would lag, and then I would end up back in outpost with "Congratulations! You now have 1,000 faction with Balthasar. See a priest of Balthazar for a reward." It actually made it easier. :> I also remember a time when I started Ruins of Morah (mission) with a H/H party, lagged out, and when I came back they had gotten me Master's. :p On the other hand, I've also been lagged out fighting Disc of Chaos with 60% DP after slogging through Heart of the Shiverpeaks. :\ So lag can either be good or bad, depending on how lucky you are. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 14:42, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I'ven't been lagging excessively lately, and I always leech off the American servers (being a Euro myself). Well, ignoring the usual lagg, like when entering overpopulated cities, which can be rather excessively long. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  14:49, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You forget Lion's Arch, Great Temple of Balthazar, sometimes Droknar's Forge, sometimes Beacon's Perch, Sunspear Sanctuary...etc. I really think there should never be more than 50-100 people in a district. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 14:51, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I couldn't be arsed making more links than that. And wouldn't've thought of Beacons nor Droks anyways. Never thought they would be remotely populated these days. Oh, and the staging areas (both at the start of a match and before) of AB. Crowds... Bah. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  14:54, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Leeches = deserve die (GW-Kiron 19:07, 28 August 2008 (UTC))
 * Wrong kind of leeching. Ezekiel <font color=#AAA> [Talk]  02:44, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
 * If you believe in a right kind. (131.95.165.201 07:07, 2 September 2008 (UTC))

Undocumented Updates. 8/27/08
Please make an update notice for the skill(s) that were changed and any other bug fixes. I know that Order of Undeath was changed completely but no notice of it was ever made. Also, the nerf to Defiant Was Xinrae was also never documented, it simply was changed on the skill's page. The drop effect was changed from 90hp stolen to 41 hp stolen.--66.192.104.10 19:50, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I think you mean this update? http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Game_updates/20080807 [[Image:Bunneh.jpg]] ~Bunny  20:09, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Defiant was Xinrae was never stole 90 health, it was a typo in the game update notes. Cress Arvein [[Image:Cress sig.JPG]] 22:44, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Undocumented Updates. 8/27/08 Still not updated
Order of Undeath has still not been documented.--72.189.85.47 23:02, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * increased recharge to 15; decreased Energy cost to 5. Functionality changed to: "All but one of your minions die. If that minion is non-Elite, it deals +5..30 more damage, has +5..20 Health regeneration, and attacks 33% faster (20 seconds)."

That is the only change that was made recently, and it was documented in the link I posted above. ~Bunny 23:18, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

M.O.X. / Fire Imp
Cool. -  Ad Victoriam  01:33, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * WTB Fire Imp at level 20 [[Image:Zefirsig.jpg|19px]] God Zefir  01:38, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * In case you don't know wtf he's talking about. Is the fire imp available to anyone who owns GW below level 20? It's kind of hard to understand, that's how it appears... &mdash; Powersurge360  01:42, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Fire Imp is worthless. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 01:43, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Anet, how about instead of adding a crappy fire imp you step up those HoM changes that were supposed to happen. [[Image:Bunneh.jpg]] ~Bunny  01:44, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the fire imp is kind of cool. Shame I won't get to tinker with it though. It's superfluous, yeah, but still cool. &mdash; Powersurge360  01:46, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Has anyone posted the "under construction" icon ever?[[Image:Sandaljack.icon.png|Clamiam]] Sandaljack 02:41, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Why does leveling to 20 have to be any easier? What exactly was hard about it to begin with? Overlord Stan 03:05, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Evidently there must still be some people out there that don't know the Wajjun Bazaar exists (or, of course, lack access to the Factions Campaign). <font color="#4056b2">Lazuli  03:09, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Don't you, like, need access to all three campaigns before it lets you get the Summoning Stone? --[[image:GEO-logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  04:36, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * No, that's the requirement for M.O.X.. Cress Arvein [[Image:Cress sig.JPG]] 04:37, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, right. You just need to have bought from the in-game store for this one. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  04:41, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, obviously the Fire Imp exists for LDoA. (T/C) 06:12, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * It's sad most of the new stuff is not translated to french yet. — TulipVorlax 07:47, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * YOU seem to be bilingual! Get crackin'! Seriously though, I am envious of you to no end... I wish I could speak multiple languages. &mdash; Powersurge360  07:48, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Won't help him if ANet hasn't translated that in GW.... anyway, I smiled at LDoA, thanks Entropy! --◄mendel► 08:47, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

FINALLY some new content, thank you areanet even if it is just like 5 minutes of coolness :) Shogankiller 11:41, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm really happy cause now I get to play with a Battlemech on my team! :3 (i know it's a golem, let me enjoy it.)--72.189.85.47 19:28, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't get me wrong, I'm glad ANet is still adding content to GW1 - but I don't recall hearing a lot of demand from the GW community for a new Dervish hero, or an aid for leveling up new characters. It reminds me of the concise skill descriptions.  They put a lot of work into some additions that are nice, but not really necessary.  Aside from GW2, I wish they would spend their dev time on items that truly are in demand, such as the promised Hall Of Monuments changes, or the ability to use more than three heroes at a time.  Shadowlance 17:48, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * /signed. And how about that auction house/mods stacking/rune storage...? [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 23:50, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

While I'm not against adding new content that doesn't directly affect the pre-existing stuff that I still enjoy, and thus I don't hate M.O.X. (though, personally, I would have preferred the time be used for something something like a new Realm of the Gods rather than an unrepeatable quest line, even if the former was just another reskinned area), I am curious as to why of all enemies to make a summon, they would choose a Fire Imp, especially when we actually already have a skill for an Ice Imp. Is it popular with the players or something? I've always found their monkey noises fairly annoying, and took pleasure in killing them. Ephidel 20:43, 9 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Spark of the Titans is a legendary foe that always strikes fear into my heart when I face them. No. 1 cause of failure in Hell's Precipice. They're the same skin but different monter...still, they could have made a worse choice. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 01:23, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I think I'd have preferred a Summon Spark to a Summon Fire Imp... DKS01 06:28, 10 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Could you explain Wajjun Bazaar powerleveling to a Factions newb? I would also say that there are also people who don't know how to repeat Kilroy_Stonekin's_Punch-Out_Extravaganza! or don't have EotN. =Valkor= 75.80.84.92 06:37, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

where to place comments
@Valkor, don't insert your comments into previous discussion, I've moved your text as a result. As for Hell's Precipice, I have yet to fail that one because of the imps. The two times I failed it was because my party members were all noobs who didnt know that the titans spawned more and more titans so they smashed them all up until we were up to our armpits in melee titans and one party member thought it was a brilliant idea to go in as a fire nuker -_-. The ice imps who combine shard storm or frozen burst with maelstrom, that's a nasty one. --BeeD 08:39, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Is the protocol/accepted practice different on the game updates page than on other discussion pages? I don't understand why discussions *shouldn't* be threaded. Now my response to a comment about easy leveling comes immediately after comments on the Ring of Fire mission, and I, who wrote the comment in the first place, had trouble connecting it back with the parent comment. =Valkor=75.80.84.92 09:18, 10 September 2008 (UTC)


 * It's wiki protocol, one never slots in their additions in between other comments. It's to keep the page in chronological order. Discussion pages shouldn't be threaded because this is not a forum. If you check the edit history, and compare previous versions you'll find green highlighted text where that particular edit was placed. If you slot your comments in reply to "threads", readers who check the edit history have to scroll up and down the page to read your contributions. To start a discussion, consider creating a new section by using this format ==heading name== before your paragraph so that it creates a section title.--BeeD 09:54, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe it's because I don't usually like generalisations but I disagree. While the common business is to start a new heading it is sometimes seen to interject with a question. Usually this is done by adding an additional indent so that the original replies can still be read in order. 'fraid I can't help explaining powerlevelling. Sparks are famously nasty, getting hit by 3 invocs will do some serious damage to a group that hasn't put up prot spirit beforehand, you can of course get lucky and have them fire at different times, and obviously heroes make everything easier. If you've ever tried the mission without knowing what to expect, especially using henchies, you learn very quickly what sparks do. <font color=#555>Ezekiel <font color=#AAA> [Talk]  10:22, 10 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, you do slot them in, else confusion results. That's what indents are for. Example:
 * comment 1
 * comment 2 replies to comment 1
 * comment 3 replies to comment 1
 * comment 4 replies to comment 3
 * Now where should I place my reply to comment 2? The indent is clear:
 * comment 5 replies to comment 2
 * If I place it at the bottom, it will look like another reply to comment 3. The only way to avoid this confusion is to place it above comment 3. I don't see how you can get confused when you're reading the page using diffs, which is what I do when I check edit histories. --◄mendel► 14:39, 10 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Strange, I got in trouble for doing that --BeeD 12:29, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

A random skill Idea...
A great Norn skill would be: "Get Over Here!" :Shout: Target foe is shadowstepped to your current location. If target foe is moving, that foe suffers from Cracked Armor and Deep Wound for X...X seconds and takes X...X damage.
 * Randomly came to me earlier today. Would be a fun all purpose skill for PvE I think. What do you all think?--72.189.85.47 19:23, 5 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Knowing Anet/Izzy, two month later it will be updated to "disable all your skills for 5 seconds". ;-P One that makes you switch places with a foe would be really funny, though. --◄mendel► 19:51, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Like Swap but not restricted to spirits? ــѕт.  мıкε  19:58, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Or like Scorpion's "Get Over Here!" move, you pull an enemy monster to you.--72.189.85.47 21:45, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Pull a Random foe to your location, that would be fun. <font color="#b8860b">Himm <font color="Red">Taeguk  (T/C) 21:51, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The term "Pulling" would get a totally new meaning. @_@ (and it pulling an enemy too you would be powerful enough without any extra effects. Too powerful for PvP in almost any way shape or form.) &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 23:15, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It would be the only skill, I believe, that can force the opponent to move locations (outside of boss skills). [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 00:56, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Swap. XD ــѕт.  мıкε  00:59, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * That's a foe, not an opponent. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 01:01, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Heh, the idea was for PvE-only anyway. XD ــѕт.  мıкε  01:16, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Does Swap work on the summoned fire imp? --◄mendel► 10:34, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not a "spirit," is it? RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 07:16, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The fire imp's damage and healing are shown to its controller, unlike the Asuran summon skills but quite like a minion, so it may actually be considered summoned. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 07:18, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Heh, never thought about using this on minions, I guess cus its only real use is Duncan. :P But yeah, it soulds like a "minion" to me. Not playing right now, but I'll try it out on my mule necro's hero later, that's my only under-20 char in Post. On a side note: it's kind of neat having a fire nuker with you in Pre. :P RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 07:49, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * What's a ritualist skill that instantly destroys a summoned creature? Targetted please. &mdash; Powersurge360  07:53, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Gaze of Fury? RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 08:02, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Gaze of Fury specifies spirits. Try uhhh... the thing that used to be like consume spirit but weaker. Signet of Creation... I know it's not targetting. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 08:05, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Tested with signet of creation, didn't die. Made a spirit of pain right next to it to make sure i did it right, which did die. Also, it does not become hostile when the party dies, so it's probably not a summoned ally (although I know spirits don't become hostile either). &mdash; Powersurge360  08:17, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

(Reset indent) gg Anet, using a "summmoning stone" gets you a creature that doesn't count as summoned in terms of game mechanics... :-P --◄mendel► 10:21, 9 September 2008 (UTC)


 * On a mildly related note, they should have made it a Summoning Scroll instead of a Stone, so we could mimic Lord Glacius the Eternal. (Seems like Imps are a popular summon, eh?) --[[image:GEO-logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  10:24, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

new tonic
anyone wanna speculate on what the new tonic will be? Omnipresentgnome 19:23, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
 * *shudders* creepy Roland Cyerni 19:42, 10 September 2008 (UTC)


 * It's a head. You know, the Undead Giants heads, that drop off. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  19:59, 10 September 2008 (UTC)


 * [[Image:FireImp.jpg|64px]] --◄mendel► 20:08, 10 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Balanced tonic. Turns you into an in-game render of Izzy. You are also permanently under the effects of Mending and Frenzy. Only works in PvP. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 21:24, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

lol. Can we skip this month? &mdash; Powersurge360  23:56, 10 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Puts on a Marty Feldman mask a dances around* "Ain't got no bo-o-o-ody!" :D --72.220.205.44 00:01, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Entropy was right, it IS a render of Izzy. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 00:07, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Worst possible creature for a tonic... 68.47.192.6 00:10, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * the tonic is pretty disturbing o.0 it looks like i'm not using my z keys this month Omnipresentgnome 00:20, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * i still think it's better than the boreal tonic...--[[Image:Mr Squints.jpg]](Page/Talk) 03:02, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Update
Update info grabbed from dev notes on offical wiki. GW-Kamer 00:52, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

skill descriptions
Anyone else annoyed that ANet seems to prefer doing skill updates using Concise descriptions now (which no one uses)? (T/C) 01:06, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Some of us love/use concise descriptions
 * I only use concise descriptions Yggdrasil 03:08, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Concise descriptions suck, especially since half the time when it deals with healing/health gain, it's wrong. And sometimes the concise is LONGER for some reason --Gimmethegepgun 03:11, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I rarely actually read skill descriptions (just look at the green numbers), but have 'em set to Concise. Wanted to see how I liked it at first, and never thought about switching back when I noticed no difference :) --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  06:48, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I did the same. I switched and never bothered switching back. The only reason I use skill descriptions now is checking green numbers. Then it's useful, because for example duration is usually at the beginning of the description. Drag  nmn   talk cont  06:51, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I switched, but kept getting thrown by how short the text was so switched back. I'm a pedant for lots of text --BeeD 08:41, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I use them because I like how they make things like initial/end effects and negative effects of the skill stand out. I don't personally care about the difference between health gain and healing, as I don't play PvP.  As far as length goes, Anet never should've called them "concise" in the first place, but "standardized" instead, because that's what they are: the descriptions have been reworded to follow standard patterns.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 13:47, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps, "abridged", "condensed" and "abbreviated" because they're not really all that concise. --BeeD 16:09, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * They're not all that condensed and abbreviated, either. --◄mendel► 16:56, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Mesmer/Eles being pushed back to Elementalists primaries
amirite? I would assume it was from the Fast Casting Snare meta in GvG. =/ ــѕт.  мıкε  01:40, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi! my name is powerblock and my job just alot easier. thanks izzy ^^ LongCat 01:46, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * That's why Master of Magic is going to become the new meta, so you can only disable about 2 skills on their bar. =O ــѕт.  мıкε  11:07, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Or cripple almost every single skill. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 12:57, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * As soon as the other team knows you're running MoM, you're shatterbait. --Macros 13:32, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Or DShot fodder. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  13:36, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

No more Rats and Oozes?????
That stinks, I had finnaly taught one english and we had tea and biscuits every morning... Shogankiller 11:56, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh noes, who have ate teh rats & ooze? Watch out for Rat-on-a-stick sellers! --Cut-me-own-throat-◄mendel► (16:07, 11 September 2008 (UTC))


 * Probably the poor citizens of Zimbabwe or Ethiopia. It's either hyperinflation making bread cost more then my entire year's salary or famine so they can't even make bread --BeeD 16:37, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Why nerf both pve and pvp versions of icy shackles?
Why nerf both pve and pvp versions of icy shackles? Seriouslly no one used it in pve except me and i dont think that I'm a big factor in pve nerfs or am i more popular than i think.Mr Prash 20:09, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Because mesmers aren't allowed to be effective in PvE! [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 20:11, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Nerf to the Skales, onoz? Still, it's probably more time consuming to nerf just the PvP version (they need to create it to nerf it), and since you are the only one in PvE that uses it, it's logical they nerfed both --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  20:27, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * But, if "nobody uses in in PvE," doesn't that mean it needs to be buffed? RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 20:47, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * nope, power block is useless in genreal PvE lpay Roland Cyerni 20:49, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * *cough* (with an extra pun to the skill image!) --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  20:50, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, Power Block is excellent against ele and necro mobs, but why bring it up? [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 20:51, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * "But, if "nobody uses in in PvE," doesn't that mean it needs to be buffed? " -> Nobody uses (or rather, should use) PBlock in PvE cause it's just not that effective. Single Shutdown is pwned by Cry/Tease, or plain nukefesting. Buffing it would be stupid. That's why it was brought up. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  20:53, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * It's a niche skill in PvE. Makes killing HM Hydras a breeze, but I haven't needed it before/since. &mdash; Powersurge360  21:16, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I use to fear teh Hydras -- my Acolyte Jin was doing a jolly shitty job of keeping them pinned down (a Hero build thats supposed to be uber powerful off pvx) then i played some moar Nightfall & picked up a few hookers & their pimp daddy Norgu -- not long arfter that I picked up gwen also from Eotn. I neva had tu fear teh hydraz agains. in fact i couldnt stop myself larfing hystrically as i deliberately went out with Norgu & Gwen in my team to kill them for fun 82.35.7.62 22:36, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Why would you bother Snaring them? All their spells are easy to interrupt except the PBAoE, and for those you just need someone like Ranger with Mantra of Flame. Or try soloing them with Spell Breaker etc. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 01:14, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Also - as with all single target shutdown, Icy Shackles and Power Block have only a few very specific places where they are effective. They are not intrinsically bad skills, though. PBlock on a Hero is really nice. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 01:16, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Single-target shutdown has its uses against bosses or high priority targets, but in general PvE, Deep Freeze and AoE interrupts/KDs are more effective, imo. ــѕт.  мıкε  11:03, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, aren't the virtually non-existent PvE mesmers a living proof of that? Hmm... Shared Burden and Power Spike or Deep Freeze and Maelstrom? I CAN'T DECIDE! RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 16:49, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Shared Burden, Mantra of Persistence, and Maelstrom. (+GoLE probably) Duh. Also, Mes has a few niche places in PvE where they are quite useful. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 16:52, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Exactly^^ niche. That's what they are in PvE, unfortunately.  And usually, when I see mesmers in my groups, more than half of their skill bar is filled with secondary profession skills.  Fast Casting is a good primary, but it rarely outweighs other primaries paired with availability of runes.  In PvE, Mesmer will always remain an awesome secondary.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 17:30, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I take offense! I am exaciticily a primary mesmer in PvE, and am very good one indeed. &larr; Someone get THAT reference! &mdash; Powersurge360  17:59, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * That's why I used words like "usually" and "rarely." There are always exceptions to rules: I stated a rule, and you are its exception.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 18:03, 12 September 2008 (UTC)