User talk:Dazra/buildarchive/Build:W/E Charge Sword/Archive 1

Rate-a-Build

 * Favored
 * Very common build, but should have shock in and sprint should be healing signet. Build used always by EvIL's Last Of Master ;) &mdash; Skuld 10:33, 24 July 2006 (CDT) no shock..
 * Totally solid if a little vanilla. However, there's a reason that builds become vanilla and that is that THEY WORK. I'd put Heal Sig in the optional slot. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by SunnyAeemi (talk &bull; contribs) 10:57, 24 July 2006 (CDT).
 * Standard, working build. For all of you unfavoreds that are bashing frenzy, this is a PvP build primarily.  Also, if you're udner attack, you can always stance-cancel.  Theonemephisto
 * Vanilla but works fine. Suggest moving to something less mangled-sounding like "Charging Swordsman". &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 11:22, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Common. I'd remove mention of tiger's stance or flurry. Tiger's fury is pretty gimpy, too. --68.142.14.19 11:30, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
 * It's boring. I don't like it. But that doesn't mean it doesn't work. Seriously though, Frenzy? If I were your monk, I'd stop healing you the second I saw you activate that. Bring Flurry instead. --Black Ark 11:44, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Don't make me bite you. &mdash; Skuld 11:54, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Bite him. --68.142.14.19 11:57, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Bite me! --Black Ark 12:25, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Consider your self e-bitten &mdash; Skuld 15:23, 24 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Adding Shock, removing Sprint. 2 running skills in GvG is dumb. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 16:23, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Unfavored
 * Nothing Special, only 3 damage skills, and frenzy without any self-heal = [[Image:ST47logo.jpg|User:ST47|50px]] (talk) 08:19, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
 * no defensive skills, no self healing, Frenzy AND optional. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 09:33, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
 * This just sucks. No offense to the creater but this build just sucks. &mdash; [[Image:Nsig.jpg]]

Discusion
I don't think we should have anything that is special on this site. We should only have builds that are tried and true. Like this one. This is a solid build, and builds should be rated on that merit, not on wether they are cool, innovative, new, or special. Also, Heal Sig is mentioned in alternatives. --Vindexus 08:23, 24 July 2006 (CDT)

Maybe it's just me, but Flurry or Tiger Stance are better skills to use as an Attack speed buffs then Frenzy IMHO. Also, some sort of Self-heal and/or condition removal would increase the value of this build. Maybe the tried but true Healing Signet? Or change into a secondary Necro and get Plague Touch? &mdash; Poki#3 08:49, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Short answer is no. Frenzy is proven, tried and true. If you watch Observer Mode you'll notice that all of the guilds in the Top 20 are running Frenzy on their Warriors. I'd go so far as to say the Top 100 but that might not be true. As for the Healing Signet and Plague Touch those are all great variants and I've included them as such. It really depends on the team build and personal preference in my opinion. --Vindexus 08:57, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Frenzy may be ok if you have 1) good self healing and 2) a good monk, but all it takes is one poorly timed lightning spike and your down. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 09:33, 24 July 2006 (CDT)

If you think Flurry is greater than Frenzy on a warrior then your opinion is that of a moron. Frenzy may have risks, but it allows for the aggressive playstyle that truly wins games. If one lightning strike is going to kill you, then you need to uninstall the game. Yes, I would probably opt for Healing Sig and Vindexus has pointed that out as a customizable option for this build. Vin's sword war is totally solid. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by SunnyAeemi (talk &bull; contribs) 10:57, 24 July 2006 (CDT).
 * 1. You are right about Frenzy being tried and true in GVG.
 * 2. A GuildWiki talk page is not a forum. It is not a place to flaunt your l33t skills or parade around your massive e-penis. Disagreement and debate is good, but can it with the "stfu n00b!" &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 11:37, 24 July 2006 (CDT)

If you play warrior in high-end GvG, theres a 99% chance that you will be using frenzy, period. The only time you should consider not using frenzy would be on a sword charger where you don't want dual speed boosts for some reason.--Theonemephisto
 * I agree with this assessment. --68.142.14.19 11:30, 24 July 2006 (CDT)

And here's my first vote, to help save a real build from the trash heap. Mainly directed at Skuld's comment in his vote: Without sprint, there's no cancel for frenzy. Shock is everywhere in HA, but in GvG less common on axe, much less common on sword, and probably not really on hammer at all. LoM uses a lot of different builds, sometimes without a resurrection signet since he's off solo a lot (ganking, hassling flaggers, whatever). --68.142.14.19 11:30, 24 July 2006 (CDT)


 * why is everyone defending frenzy? the mathmatics are undeniable. double damage, not simply -40 armor, but double damage! calulate every bonus, every addition, armor penetration, multiply customization, then take the whole stack and double it. suddenly Galrath is on the order of 200 damage. by the time you realize the lone sword warrior is eating you alive, the air spikers are moving in like sharks with blood in the water and no amount of cancel stance is going to help. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 11:59, 24 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Air ele is on the floor thanks to shock. sensible ppl dont use frenzy when they are being targeted &mdash; Skuld 12:04, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
 * "sensible ppl" don't invite spikes by using frenzy. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 12:17, 24 July 2006 (CDT)


 * For just AP, customization, and other +X% damage effects alone, there's no difference between double damage and -40 armor. The difference only comes into play with armor ignoring damage and "DShifts." That said, frenzy is a large damage boost, a large adrenaline boost, and speeds up your adrenaline spikes a lot.  As Skuld said, you can cancel at any time with sprint (or whatever stance), so you can end frenzy as fast as you recognize damage is coming. Against a normal team, even with adrenal spikes, this is fine. Against a dedicated spike team, a warrior will likely not frenzy much if at all. The plusses are so good that combined with the ability to cancel the stance they far outweigh the potential double damage. Mephisto's estimate of 99% is not embellishment. You're calling nearly every warrior in a well-ranked guild "not sensible."  --68.142.14.19
 * for reference, DMultiply is at the end of the equation, evaluated last excepting Dnegate, ref. Damage. the popularity of a thing has little or no correlation to it's hazard, sky diving and seatbelts, for instance --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 12:36, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm not sure if you mean to direct that at me, but that's exactly why the things I noted work out the same whether damage is doubled or AL is reduced by 40. Everything before DShift is multiplied, so without a DShift, it's the same.  Another way of putting it is -40 armor doubles "AE" so (RD * DS * AE) * 2 is the same as RD * DS * (AE * 2).  Also, I wasn't showing frenzy is useful because people use it.  I only pointed out that if frenzy is not sensible, you called a lot of people not sensible.  The original point made by myself and Skuld is that it's not hazardous due to switching stances.  --68.142.14.19

Besides cutting out mention of flurry and the tigers, I prefer the state of the article before Rapta's changes. --68.142.14.19 18:20, 24 July 2006 (CDT)

Corrected information in article, shifted back to original build. Added back a stance cancel for Frenzy. Explained concept of stance canceling. The original build by Vindexus was correct and used in high level GvG. He is an experienced GvG player and knows what he is talking about. Leave the build as is and post your own PvP build if you disagree with him. If you really know better than the original poster then your build will be used as reference more often. PvP builds aren't going to work if everyone who thinks they know something about high level PvP starts fiddling with them. 24.55.175.45 20:38, 24 July 2006 (CDT)

Could you guys please stop changing the build to Shock with no cancel stance? That is not the standard build. That is something that should be mentioned in the variants. Most people are not comfortable running no cancel stance, and the build should be tailored towards the masses. These builds are meant for people seeking decent builds, which means they don't know what is good. From that I can conclude they don't have much experience and thus can't run Frenzy without a cancel stance. --Vindexus 17:45, 25 July 2006 (CDT)

Made some edits so it's now internally consistent (again...). I can't move the page back to W/any since I'm anonymous. Also, Skuld, you originally voted favored for this with shock listed only as a variant/optional skill. It's back as a variant. --68.142.14.19 18:15, 25 July 2006 (CDT)

I believe you can sub in Shock for Hex Breaker. For cancelstance. Edit: Oops, didn't see Vindexius post. I'll post more later on. LightningHell 23:06, 4 September 2006 (CDT)

About Frenzy
It is generally agreed by everyone who ever plays PvP other than RA that Frenzy is a very standard skill. The fact that you chose when to activate it means that it's powerful in the hands of anyone that isn't a moron. Also, because Stances don't stack, you can easily cancel it when you see casters lift up their arms and rotate towards you, or you see warriors running at you. --Vindexus 16:06, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
 * It's actually mainly used only in GvG and Heroes' Ascent, where you are not targetted as often. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 16:30, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Another note to be brought to attention: Frenzy does not need a Cancel. Its duration is a mere 8 seconds. Using a Cancel in this build is a waste of a skill slot. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 16:36, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
 * A warrior with Frenzy up won't last 8 seconds under focused fire. So I would say it does need a cancel. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 17:26, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
 * can i call my point proved now? frenzy is going to get me killed one day, and i'm not even the one using it. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 17:29, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I personally think that taking a cancel stance or not is completely up to the player, it depends on their preferences. --Vindexus 17:49, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I personally agree with Vindexus. Its a calculated risk, and while not every top 20 GvGer likes going without sprint/rush as a cancel stance, there are many many many who do when playing a charge sword warrior. Bringing any other stance in place of frenzy (flurry for instance), or insisting on having sprint as a cancel is quite a bit more limited than the true use of the variations of this build all over high-level GvG. --Kryshnysh 18:26, 24 July 2006 (CDT)

Psst, guys, there's this cool article called Talk:Frenzy where this discussion would probably make more sense. ;) -- Bishop [ rap|con ] 18:04, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
 * The majority of players will take sprint/rush as a cancel stance. It takes a great deal of situational awareness and knowledge of the game and top-level play to be able to play without using a cancel stance.  For the majority of players, you shouldn't go frenzy without a stance cancel. --Theonemephisto 18:39, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
 * However, the majority of high-level PvP'ers such as EvIL's and PnH's Charge swords do not use a cancel stance. My friends and I run a very successful build in the Hero's Ascent, also with a Charge sword. No cancel stance is needed. And remember, Sarah, 8 seconds includes the time it takes for the opposing team to react to it, and to have the majority of their team switch targets. There is really no chance of that occuring successfully, not even in the World Championships. And Protective Spirit more or less nullifies the possiblility of a spike completely. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 21:11, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
 * people seem to be ignoring my logic, so i've no idea why i'm responding, but 8 seconds is a long time. people get away with it because the animations for frenzy are so subtle. if it had a big purple graphic like empathy, it would be a very different skill. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 21:23, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
 * While I've been one of the people arguing against you for a while, Sarah, I agree that 8s is a long time. But that's also why I argued for sprint to be on the bar in the article.  The idea that 8s is not enough time to organize a spike is pretty silly.  Usually adrenal spikes are arranged in half that time or less.  If the other team knows you have no cancel, it's pretty likely you will end up dying because of frenzy if you use it much.  The reason we argue for frenzy is can essentially be cancelled instantaneously.  --68.142.14.19 21:31, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
 * This is a subject that you can talk to any experienced GvG'er about. Frenzy is almost never in need of a cancel, especially since a well organized GvG team would have a member with Protective Spirit. That nullifies the downside of Frenzy.
 * The reason that Frenzy is used, is not because we can cancel it. That's a waste of a skill slot. Frenzy is used for its consistency, and 99% of the time, you will not be killed because you're using it. Of course, there are those fools which decide to use frenzy in Arena battles, where you are already being targetted. Frenzy should not be used all the time. Sarah, I'm getting an Arena-based or PvE-based opinion side from you, which is great, but this build is designed (and proven effective) in GvG and Hero's Ascent. And you have to take into consideration that spikes follow the 3-second countdown pattern, by which time Frenzy has already ended. Overextension is also a problem, but that's why we have charge: to get back to your team quickly, and be within healing range. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 21:39, 25 July 2006 (CDT)