Template talk:Dungeon chest contents

Drop rate research
We have drop rate research, e.g. Drop rate/Hidesplitter's Chest. Should that be linked from the template? Is it worth anything? Should it be deleted? Improved? -- ◄mendel► 07:48, August 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * I always thought it strange that drop rate research is a subpage of Drop rate, instead of sub to whatever we are measuring. That aside, there's probably a couple of things that can also be in this template:


 * The name of the quest and dungeon. In theory, they go together and should mebbe be in a Dungeon info box, but if it's in the "contents," such info could be used to display data in tables etc.
 * The NM/HM bonus points. Technically, that applies to the dungeon (or the quest), but it is also part of the overall reward.
 * A link to the drop rate (on whatever page).


 * Anything else? &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 10:04, August 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * Rename it to Template:Dungeon rewards and include the reputation points, IMO. Quest/dungeon name is infobox content: on dungeon page, infobox should list quest (I'll bet we don't have a parameter for that); we should create an infobox for chests.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 12:47, August 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * I did some checking, and discovered that every chest only drops 1 random item, 2 in hard mode. 5 chests have a guaranteed drop in addition to the random item:
 * Chest of Burrows - Lockpick
 * Chest of Kathandrax - Hammer of Kathandrax
 * Chest of Wintersday Past - Snowman Summoner (2 in hard mode)
 * Murakai's Chest - Exquisite Surmia Carving
 * Prismatic Chest - Prismatic Gelatinous Material
 * Since all chests are uniform except for these guaranteed drops, there doesn't seem any point in specifying the number of items dropped in this template. &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 14:44, August 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * Cool! One of those facts hidden by the way that both wikis have historically displayed the data.
 * I agree w/the rename, provided we add the reputation points to the display/parms
 * I agree w/removing the parms for quest item & NM/HM drops, replacing them with, guaranteed drops (for Wintersday Past, it can mention the double drop).


 * However, do we need an info box for chests in addition to this (renamed) template? Seems to me that the dungeon infobox can be the link, if it has dungeon name + quest name + chest name. &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 15:24, August 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * See my mockup with reputation points and guaranteed drop listing at User:Dr ishmael/Dungeon rewards (demo on talkpage).
 * I think an infobox would help to make it look like a 'real' article - most everything that isn't a glossary, guide, or QR has an infobox. We could make it generic to all "interactive objects" like GWW's and use it to spruce up all the various object pages, like Storm Beacon and Harpy Nest.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 15:59, August 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * FYI only: Dungeon_chest_contents_project &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 16:14, August 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * Suggested alternate mock-up. &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 16:14, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

Formatting
Centering the cell contents looks very unusual, with the "jagged" ends on both sides of the text. Could we please revert to left-aligned? &mdash;Dr Ishmael 12:44, August 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * Also, the coloring is quite distracting. I didn't want to say anything about that until I saw it on some actual articles, but yeah, I really don't like it.  We've typically been very conservative in our use of color (outside of QR pages, anyway), and I think this would be a step in the wrong direction.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 13:53, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

Infobox style
I've had a stab at making this look like an infobox. It's not perfect, but I feel it fits the site design better (the chest name might have a colored background), and the vertical list scans better. It does take less space overall, but more vertical space. -- ◄mendel► 13:56, September 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * I prefer the horizontal table version. It's more in line with our mission rewards, and it makes more sense within the page context.  This template, whether a table or an infobox, is going to completely replace the "Rewards" section on all dungeon articles.  With the table version, we keep the "Rewards" header and simply replace the content of the section.  With the infobox, there's no need for the header, and that would introduce a few problems:
 * It would remove the quick-access "Rewards" link from the ToC, which is probably useful to a lot of readers (including myself).
 * The placement of the infobox on the page would be an arbitrary choice and wouldn't necessarily make sense in context.
 * Some dungeons have a very long list of possible chest items, such as Frostmaw's Burrows, making the infobox too tall to fit on a single screen for resolutions shorter than about 800 pixels (many widescreen displays, especially on laptops, have a native resolution of 1280x800).
 * The table version:
 * Retains the "Rewards" ToC entry.
 * Goes under the existing "Rewards" header, which already has a standard placement on dungeon articles.
 * Saves vertical space by placing the different sublists side-by-side.
 * Moreover, the infobox version would make the chest article look very awkward, especially for the longer lists, since there would be very little information left to place in the body of the article. You'd have a huge swath of blank space with an infobox down the right side.  (Granted, some pages already look like that, but we don't have to make more of them.)  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 15:00, September 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * What Ish said.


 * My original concept is that Dungeon chest would be entirely composed of (or near enough). The Dungeon and Dungeon quest pages would transclude the contents; also, any list we might make of dungeon chests etc could make use of same.


 * Looks: I'm sort of 55:45 about whether it looks better as a horizontal or vertical table; I'm not sure that the amount of space matters anyhow. (And I assume, should we go this route, that we'll add some color etc to the rows for chest name, rewards, and drops; otherwise, I do like the rest of the design.)


 * Info box vs table style: This stronger argument for the change is, indeed, about wiki philosophy (rather than space etc). As Ish sez, I think the table style fits the page design better. However, I confess I don't understand why the infobox style is preferred. Can someone explain (and, ideally, show a mock-up of the dungeon page using the infobox instead of the table?)


 * Two more ideas not specific to info box or table style:
 * shouldn't the template take the name, Dungeon rewards instead of ... contents, since we are now including reputation?
 * Can we set it up so the template takes a single number and calculates the first and nth time bonuses for both NM and HM? (Instead of having to input all 4).


 * &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 15:25, September 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * My understanding of infoboxes is that they summarize a set of standard information common to all articles that are in the same primary category. Thus, we have a weapon infobox for weapons, a location infobox for locations, we will soon have a single infobox for non-equippable items, etc.  A valid argument could be made that the contents of a dungeon chest constitutes "standard info" for the chest itself, but in the context of the dungeon that contains the chest, that would be second-hand info and wouldn't really qualify for infobox status (based on my understanding).
 * Renaming to Dungeon rewards: /agree
 * NM/HM/repeat reputation points calculation: my mockup already does that. &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 15:43, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Here is a mockup is what the "Chest of Burrows" article would look like (took the liberty of applying a more standard infobox format to mendel's design). &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 15:56, September 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * I like adding an image to the box &mdash; let's do so whether we end up with table or info (default being a generic, unless we have a specific image of the chest, even if they do all look much the same).
 * I like Doc Ish's mock up's design for the infobox.


 * If style/design were the only issue, I prefer table style as fitting with the Dungeon, Dungeon quest pages. If we were going to expect other info on the Dungeon chest articles themselves, then an info box would be appropriate. However, since I expect that there won't be additional text, it seems like a lot of work to present the data in table form when transcluded to two articles and infobox on the source page. (Although, since the parms are the same and the number of dungeons is limited, perhaps not as hard as I think.) &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 16:17, September 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * This mockup illustrates my idea of using a dungeon-chest-infobox in combination with the rewards table for dungeon chest articles. I encountered a couple difficulties with this: 1) the table doesn't look good at all (1024x768 rez) unless it's below the infobox, which again leaves a bunch of whitespace; 2) forcing all columns to be the same width means that most of the greens have to wrap, which looks horrible, while the mats and random columns have extra space.  I removed the explicit widths and the table looks fine, but it still doesn't play well with the infobox.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 17:07, September 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * Replying to Dr Ishmael's first post: The mission rewards table has a vertical reward list, it has no horizontal structure like this template currently has. The word "rewards" could be made a header; it would show up in the TOC and could be jumped to. The box placement would appear arbitrary, but it could be more quickly discerned. (It needn't even float). It would be shorter than the current bullet lists, and Frostmaw's would clock in at just over 500 pixel, just enough to fit well on 800 pixels even if you subtract some toolbar space (but not on an OOB Oasis, but then we won't have one).
 * I wasn't sure our readers want the calculations done for them: doing them in the table clutters it up, and I wouldn't need to have them, but then that doesn't mean everyone else would. I'd certainly prefer a calculation over separate input.
 * The colored version looks nice; the color scheme is the one for locations, of course; we'd have to use something else, I think? Using a picture is also fine if the chests are indeed differently decorated.
 * It's not hard to unfloat and horizontalize my design by removing the &lt;br /> in favor of commas, and to incorporate the additional info. I'll try to cook something up. -- ◄mendel► 18:29, September 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * All the chests look identical, but we already have separate images for all of them anyway (click then PageDown). GWW uses a single rendered image for all of them.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 19:00, September 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't see any issues with the current design resolved by either example; I do see new issues introduced (excessive white space, harder to scan). I would prefer to spend our energies tweaking Template:Dungeon_chest_contents rather than inventing something new. (Unless there are issues with the current design which haven't been stated here...yet.) &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 20:39, September 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * The issues (they've been brought up before): The current design (Template:Dungeon_chest_contents) has a design that doesn't fit the rest of the wiki well; it has unnessary data (NM items/HM items) and is lacking information that the evolved designs do have.
 * My new designs address these issues; they do not have "empty" columns and don't have headers cluttered by additional information. -- ◄mendel► 20:54, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

horizontal mendel design
Heh. Well, it's done; it should receive the stdt look now, though. See User talk:M.mendel/Templates/Dungeon Chest 3. I haven't done a demo for one with not as many drops yet; that ought to look even better. -- ◄mendel► 19:43, September 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * Honestly, my first reaction to that was "blech." Maybe if the image were taken out, it wouldn't be so bad, but I don't know.  The comma-separated list is a really bad idea - makes it much harder to scan and analyze the list compared to each item on its own line.  As for the non-comma version... frankly, that doesn't seem like much of an improvement over the current bulleted-list format.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 20:02, September 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * Ok, the picture is out; the vertical version now uses floating rows to arrange itself automatically to use horizontal space where available without breaking sections; if the screen's too narrow it'll be one column, but if it is wider, there may be more. Note that there's some space left to maybe put in the computed reputation numbers. -- ◄mendel► 20:29, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * And now with less whitespace than before. -- ◄mendel► 20:50, September 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * I like the floating style (bah, should've thought of it myself, I've used it so many other places). A couple things I'd change: 1) Since this is no longer an infobox, get rid of the header color; 2) Make each parameter default to "None" instead of leaving a blank space under that header.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 21:16, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * I wanted to make it stdt, but our stdt is coded so that it applies to nested tables as well; we either need a css class to apply to the nested table to make its border invisible, or limit the depth of the stdt css with the use of ">". Getting rid of the color is easy, of course. -- ◄mendel► 21:29, September 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * I like the current style better: I like the spanning row across the top with the chest name, I like the distinct columns underneath their header (rather than alongside), I prefer the compact layout.


 * The only thing I like better in the 3 examples: the left hand box for the general dungeon info. (However, that falls under the name of the chest, which is misleading &mdash; you get the quest reward whether you open the chest or not, except for the 2-3 cases where you need the quest item contained in the chest rather than dropping from a boss.)


 * Why is it we are redesigning? Are we trying to resolve an informational issue? a presentation issue? a style issue? Since I don't understand, I'm in favor of sticking to the status quo (which, I realize, lasted all of 24 hours and for only two pages). &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 02:04, September 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Mendel's 4th design uses a definition list, which does place the lists under a header (with indentation). I have a couple ideas I want to try to improve on that, but I like that version the best so far.
 * Why redesign? See mendel's last response in the previous section, it's all 3:
 * Information: this version still lists the number of NM/HM drops, when we know that it's always 1/2. Also, this version doesn't list the reputation reward.  You've updated the version in your userspace to address these, but not this template.
 * Presentation: The forced column widths are a potential issue, causing some columns to wrap when they could instead "borrow" space from another column that doesn't need it. Always showing all columns, even when there is nothing to list there, is unnecessary, as that space could be apportioned to the other columns.
 * Style: No other in-line table uses color to the extent that this template currently does. It is distracting and unnecessary.
 * Also, yet another mockup evolved from mendel v4: dungeon page and chest page. Using floating div's instead of table cells, which allows us to use the STDT class on the table.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 04:05, September 3, 2010 (UTC)