Talk:Armor

I'm a little unclear. For something such as Acolyte's Armor which is +10 armor while enchanted, is it per piece global, per piece area, or one piece at all? So -- if you're wearing the four pieces of acolyte's, do you have +40 armor no matter where you're hit? Do you have +10 for the one spot? Or do you have +10 no matter where you're hit? --Tinarto 01:32, 22 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Per piece local, unless otherwise specified. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 01:38, 22 May 2006 (CDT)

"Head - 12.5% of physical attacks (this goes up if the enemy is on higher ground than you.)"

Thats the first time I've ever heard that, has this been confirmed, and how? --69.107.125.202 04:57, 15 June 2006 (CDT)

It says that all direct damage spells hit the Chest area but then says it is a common misconception that all spells hit a specific location (such as the Chest). I don't understand how you can have these two statements together. If a spell does not do direct damage, then it ignores armor in the first place and doesn't matter where it "hits". But if the spell does direct damage, say from a Lightning Hammer, then does it always hit the Chest like it said or what? Seems very confusing. - Stexe
 * Blah, that part of the theory is a mess. Right now it is known that Lightning Orb *never* hits hands, but does hit foot and head and ohter body parts.  We might need to do a systematic study of skills to be sure. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 12:53, 12 July 2006 (CDT)
 * BTW, "direct damage" is not related to armor ignoring or not. I believe it's used to describe spells that deal damage without causing something to fly through air. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 14:43, 12 July 2006 (CDT)

I'm curious as to wether or not armor can be taken into the negatives, wether through armor being debuffed through Weaken Armor and Healing Signet, or having no armor on and then being debuffed. Or does it just go to 0 AL? Cutsman 14:24, 15 November 2006 (CST)
 * Yes, armor can go into the negatives. Try it: Strip off all armor, get attacked, use Frenzy, and you will see the damage doubling. Useful for speeding up death-levelling in Pre. --Nova 07:01, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * Sorry, that made no sense, didn't it. Cross out Frenzy, just use Healing Signet, and you will see the damage doubling. I can get striders to strike for 44 damage in Pre that way. --Nova 07:04, 2 February 2007 (CST)

Hit location research
Each location is tested separately by removing that piece of armor.

-User:PanSola (talk to the ) 14:43, 12 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Lightning Orb - in 100 trials, no orb hit hands. Head, Chest, Legs, Feet all got hit within 10 trials.
 * Lightning Javelin - in 100 trials, none hit hands. Head, Chest, Legs, Feet all got hit within 10 trials.
 * Eruption - in 100 trials (20 casts), none hit hands. Head, Chest, Legs, Feet all got hit within 5 trials (1 casting).
 * Stone Daggers - in 100 trials (50 casts), none hit hands. Head, Chest, Legs, Feet all got hit within 6 trials (3 castings).
 * Whirlwind - in 49 trials (died), never hit hands. Head, Chest, Legs, Feet all got hit within 10 trials.
 * Firestorm - in 100 trials (10 casts), none hit hands. Head, Chest, Legs, Feet all got hit within 10 trials (1 casting)
 * Fireball - in 100 trials (this took forever), none hit hands. Head, Chest, Legs, Feet all got hit within 10 trials.


 * am i missing something, or is this data seriously suggesting that no elementalist spells ever hit hands? that's so weird. i wonder if the dev team knows about that? i'm going into the deep with my gloves off and watching for abnormal damage...--Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 15:24, 12 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Attacking with a sword, I was able to hit my target's hands. --68.142.14.98 16:08, 12 July 2006 (CDT)
 * yes, but talking about spells. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 16:10, 12 July 2006 (CDT)
 * This started with Talk:Lightning Orb where Pan found she couldn't hit hands. There's absolutely no reason to assume whatever is happening, whether bug or intentional, is limited to spells.  --68.142.14.98 16:13, 12 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Attacking with a bow, I was unable to hit hands in something over 100 trials. --68.142.14.98 16:28, 12 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Same, also same with direct damage non projectile spells. --Draygo Korvan (Yap) 20:17, 12 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I assumed fire storm, whirlwind, and eruption would be the same as the rest of the non-projectile spells. I'll test wands later tonight, unless someone does first.  --68.142.14.98 20:20, 12 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Tested those, as well as the ice line, none of them hit hands, I also tested wands (100 trials) no hits to the hands. --Draygo Korvan (Yap) 20:26, 12 July 2006 (CDT)

Tests should be done against damaging hexes like Lightning Surge, Incendiary Bonds, Shatterstone, ... Of course, this is a valid test for hexes doing non-armor ignoring damage only. --Theeth (talk)   20:56, 12 July 2006 (CDT)
 * How do u see where it hits??.... :S--WichmanN 08:29, 29 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Wear different AL's on different parts of the body, for wand/bow damage use a candy cane equivilant with 0 in the attribute (no crit)--Draygo Korvan (Yap) 17:02, 12 February 2007 (CST)

Is it possible that things will only hit the target's hands if the target is currently in action?--Ender A 05:47, 7 October 2006 (CDT)
 * No, actions have no effect on where a target is hit. --Draygo Korvan (Yap) 17:02, 12 February 2007 (CST)

Though it's off the current subject I'd like to propose a possible addition to this page. Should a note be made explaining how a player in Factions is limited in the types of armor they can craft by their allegiance to either Kurzick or Luxon? Specifically how a player for one side will be unable to craft the opposing sides armor without first attaining the right balance of faction points? --Fouch 03:21, 12 October 2006 (EST)

with the nightfall update i found it is now possible to expert salvage runes off starting armour though i have no proof i have done it. they are never deystroyed and you cant extract materials

Worth noting that my untested experience has led me to beleive traps strike the feet. (Ubermancer) 71.207.229.249 20:35, 2 December 2006 (CST)
 * False, trap damage is the same as spell damage, and spells that would seem to target the feet (ie bed of coals), head, chest, legs, and feet can be hit but not the hands. --Draygo Korvan (Yap) 17:02, 12 February 2007 (CST)

Yesterday i've tested Blinding Surge, Rodgort's Invocation, Ice Spikes and Stone Daggers with a friend of mine, just with 20 hits each, and noticed that they all hit hands normally. I don't know if anything changed during the last couple of years you had the discussion above, but i think it needs new testing and it needs to be made clear in the page text if the percentages go for physical attacks, direct attacks, indirect attacks or all attacks. Cdriver 04:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah that part of the game mechanics changed a looooong time ago... -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 06:38, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Attacks from behind
I have seen alot of information that involves where you are hit (hands, chest, head, feet, legs), and the effects, similar to the discussions here. I have also seen but rarely a mention of attacks that occur from behind a target. I'm curious if for these attacks:
 * Is damage delt based on a reduced Armor Value because they are from behind or is it calculated the same as a frontal attack.
 * Do they ignore the target's shield Armor Value.

Also while while wielding a shield (since non of the above tests specified) is that the time when attacks may more commonly be calculated off your hand's armor. (Shield + hand armor)

Just some thoughts and concederations that I didn't see here. Hopeful 17:23, 25 November 2006 (CST)

From what I've read, attacks from behind always result in a critical hit... I have yet to run into any info suggesting attacks do any more damage then that from behind. We'll need someone else to test the shield theories... I'm rather curious about that myself. Jioruji Derako 00:51, 29 November 2006 (CST)

I really meant that for like an axe that can hit for 6-28, that it would hit more toward the 28 side of the damage spectrum. Basically when attacking from behind that the chance of hitting for minimum damage would be lower. Though that is very _theroetical_. I think what you suggested Derako is more accurate, garunteed or higher critical strike chance, and ignores armor gained from a shield. Would like to see some number crunching if any are up for it :D Hopeful 18:49, 29 November 2006 (CST)


 * Critical hits always hit the highest end of the damage range on your weapon anyway. For example, a scythe crit would always use 41 as its roll for damage calculations. --Lazarus 04:56, 26 June 2007 (CDT)

My friend and I did some testing a few weeks ago and found the following:
 * Shield AL counts regardless of whether you are hit from behind, in front, or from the sides.
 * Hits to the back against a stationary target do not deal additional damage, nor do they always critical.
 * Hits to the back against a running target are auto-critical. Backpedalling and strafing avoid this.

We did not conduct enough trials to see whether hits to the back had an increased chance of critical. Rera 12:55, 8 December 2006 (CST)


 * It wouldn't make much sense to have attacks from behind deal more damage. Just think of the implications in PvP...you'd have everyone running in circles, trying to avoid being "backstabbed". You'd have whole parties bunching up against walls and other obstructions. It would be silly. I can understand taking more damage from projectiles when you're lower than the shooter, but this...no. Entropy 07:05, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * That's exactly what good PvP players do, actually. You don't run straight away from the guy chasing you, or he'll just critical once he hits Sprint and catches up with you. Good kiting means moving slightly at an angle, strafing most of the time while running so as to avoid getting Eviscerated for a world of hurt. --Dirigible 07:15, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * Yes, but that's about the critical from running enemies, not about generic hitting someone in the back type damage. Entropy 07:18, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * The critical isn't caused by you running, it's caused by you getting hit in the back while running. Hence why strafing while running doesn't result in a critical: See Rera's comment above. Hitting in the back someone who's standing still doesn't result in a critical, but if he's running AWAY from you (Hits to the back against a running target are auto-critical, in other words, keeping only W pressed, or clicking somewhere with your mouse), then it definitely will. This is nothing new either, it's common knowledge to most PvPers who have payed even slight attention to the game mechanics. --Dirigible 07:28, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * ...That's exactly what I said >< Entropy 07:30, 2 February 2007 (CST)

Armor gain enchantments stack?
I'm planning to try this with my elementalist so she'll be a better tanker (way better than a Warrior). Will armor enchantments stack? For example, if I wear [Tempest armor] in combination of Obsidian Flesh, Kinetic Armor, and Armor of Earth at 16 Earth Magic, will I end up getting 236 armor (60+10+20+84+62). Although it may sound insane, but I'm going to test (capture or use faction points for Obsidian Flesh) to see what it's like (Elementalist/Assassin).--Dark Paladin X 20:17, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Yes. Use armor of earth + stone flesh instead, though, less of a hall of maintaining.  &mdash;[[Image:BlastThatT.jpg]]Blastedt 20:18, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Ok thanks, though I don't have nightfall :( (I do have factions and prophecies).--Dark Paladin X 20:21, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Armor no longer stacks past +25 from spells and skills as of the Pve skills update.--Lazarus 04:48, 26 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Someone mentioned on the Ebon Battle Standard of Courage talk page that they didn't think wards counted against the armor cap. Anyone know for sure if that is true or false?  Shadowlance 15:09, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Armor Gaining Skills
I know Armor dosen't stack past +25 (am a warrior, found out the hard way), But i was wondering. Since avatar of Balthazar is an Avatar and not a really an enchantment and such, Would i still stack with say dolyak sig, or watch yourself?

Thx Ace


 * Nope, it's not per se from Enchantments, it's any armor boost. --84.24.206.123 11:27, 20 September 2007 (CDT)

Negative Armor
If you take off all of your armor and get hit by lighting orb which has 25% armor pen, Since you have 0 armor what does that mean for the damage? Also you have no weapons or armor increasing spells/skills. Also if you use frenzy and healing signet with no armor and get hit by lightning orb what happens? im talking matematically not if it activates because i know it does from the Master of Lightning.68.116.173.168 00:05, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * That would be kinda wierd though, because in a mathematical sense... Let's just say for example, you have no armor and used Heal Sig. That would be -40 AL. Someone hits you with Orb while you are casting Heal Sig. Orb has 25% Armor Penetration, so it subtracts 1/4th of your current armor. Problem is... -40*.25 = -10. -40--10 (which turns out to be -40+10) = -30. So in all logical sense, using Armor Penetrating moves on a negative AL target actually gives them armor >_< La va Ed ge 324 ++[[Image:Conjure_Flame.jpg|20px]] 10:13, 15 April 2007 (CDT)
 * A-net doesn't do logic, all players know that lol. Lord of all tyria 10:15, 15 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah, I know, but the game's calculator does. Then again, ANet made that calculator... La va Ed ge 324 ++[[Image:Conjure_Flame.jpg|20px]] 16:10, 15 April 2007 (CDT)


 * The -40 AR due to Healing Signet is part of "AR Shift", factored in AFTER armor penetration. See Damage calculation.  We researched that one out a long time ago d-: -PanSola 20:17, 15 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Ah, ok. Though I'd really find it funny if what I said was true XD La va Ed ge 324 ++[[Image:Conjure_Flame.jpg|20px]] 16:23, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
 * But im talking about if you have 0 armor on and you use healing sig, does that mean you take double dmg from that or is it not factored in? 68.116.175.76 23:38, 17 May 2007 (CDT)

Color
Did armor just lose inherent coloring!?!! Korezaan Su 01:13, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Nope. That happened a long time ago. -PanSola 02:09, 17 April 2007 (CDT)

Skills
Armor skills quick reference is missing

Slightly Amusing Glitch
I you have a male and a female chara, place one's armor in storage and view it with the other. its inventory icon will be the wrong gender. So when the armor icon is viewed, it is always of the gender of the character looking at it. -Kumdori 00:08, 20 July 2007 (CDT)
 * The game doesn't divide armor by gender. It's the same item in terms on ID. It just changes appearance. Should be a bit obvious after April Fools' Day :P &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 05:57, 20 July 2007 (CDT)

Added: Infusion bonus, Upgrading armor, Elite armor
Just added Infusion bonus to bonuses list, Upgrading armor section and Elite armor section. Aerial Starlight 07:48, 1 August 2007 (CDT)

Salvage obisidian
Let say I need to salvage obsidian armor - how many ecto's I will get out from each piece in average? (dont ask why) Gcardinal 08:15, 9 August 2007 (CDT)

Someone did it on Guru once. They got no ectos. 82.19.8.106 16:54, 18 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Heh, I did that once. Salvaged the old not-Shard-using Necromancer Scar Fissure armor. I got no Ecto. I didn't even get Vellum >.< Mesodreth Blackwing 209.29.99.45 15:44, 5 September 2007 (CDT)

Does the max +25 armor bonus apply for insignias too?
I'm wondering, if I use for example an insignia that gives +10 armor against elemental and watch yourself for +24, will it give a total of 34 or just 25 (24+1 from insignia)?


 * Armor cap only counts for armor bonusses from skills, so it'll yield 34 AL Bonus. --84.24.206.123 16:22, 29 August 2007 (CDT)


 * Thanks.

Upgrading Collector Armor
I believe there is a mistake there. I upgrade and salvage runes from collector armor all the time. They can not be upgraded with insignias, though. I am going to go ahead and change that on the main page. If for some reason I am mistaken, then feel free to change it back. --Anon E. Mouse, 9/15/07 00:30 PST


 * I had thought that only the max. collector armor cannot be upgraded with insignias, while collector armor below maximum can be. Mobius 8 07:30, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Blessings do stack?
I was wondering if anybody know if blessings are affected by the skill armor cap. I mean, if I get a blessing from dwayna with a +10 armor, and I'm using Avatar Of Balthazar with a +40, do I have +50 armor or +40? Because, Blessings are not skills they should be applied but dunno if they really do. Thx. --Crigore 07:42, 21 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Blessings are also skills imo. I use Critical Agility, and I have to say that I dion't notice any difference in damage when I have Great Dwarf's Blessing on me... &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 10:46, 21 September 2007 (CDT)

Skills with +armor vs different aspects?
The question I have is, now with the 25 limit, say I am using 2 armor buff skills... one gives me +armor vs physical. The other gives me + armor vs elemental. Will the 2 stack together? Also how do wards play into the equation? Isk8 15:35, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
 * By definition those two can no more "stack" than a pile of apple pie on a table in New York vs a pile of encyclopedia on a fireplace in London. If you are in NY, you get teh apple pie.  If you are in London, you get the encyclopedia.  And I'm not sure how clocks play into the equation at all. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 18:39, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I think I'm more confused now then when I asked in the first place. ~_~  Let me use a literal example.  Lets say I'm a R/E.  I use Frigid Armor then cast Dryder's Defenses.  Will I get the armor bonuses for both skills?  If not, how does the game determine which one you get.  1 specifically targets physical damage, while the other specifically targets elemental damage.  Isk8 20:21, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
 * You gain bonus from Frigid when you are taking physical damage, and you gain bonus from Dryder's Defenses when you are taking elemental damage. The bonus is only factored in when you are taking damage, so it determins which one you get by the type of damage you are taking. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 21:44, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Creature armour?
Thanks to Weaken Armor now using Cracked Armor, i was wondering: What armour do creatures have? Do they all have basic max armour for their profession (i.e. casters all have 60AL, warriors have 80AL &c)? I can't find anything explaining it. Or does it change depending on creature? Or on area? Or both? I want to make sure i'm not casting this without effect, nor avoiding casting it when it would have one.


 * I always assumed it was (Creature Level)*3 + (class modifier) except in some particular cases, but I'm most likely wrong.

Armour or Armor
Why are we using the US spelling, surely we should use the original (UK spelling) as the british were the ones who invented the lauguage. RT </B>| Talk 16:40, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * What does GW use? Go check. We use what GW uses, to make it easier to find something. Jadoth's Storm of Judgement ain't renamed to Judgment because Sig and Shield use that. It stays that way because that's how it is in game. If I sound pissed: I am, but that is unrelated --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (s)talkpage 16:44, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, ok, calm down... <B>RT </B>| Talk 16:50, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I shouldn't be explaining things when I'm pissed off... Sorry (no sarcasm) --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (s)talkpage 16:52, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Sure.. <B>RT </B>| Talk 16:53, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I would actually suggest we use armure, since that's how it's spelled in proper middle english, and they invented the language. Then again they just took it from armatura.  Really the whole wiki should be in Latin, if we're going with where words came from.  -- mechasoupx 17:40, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Lol, latinguildwiki. <B>RT </B>| Talk - The The Whacking editor 17:41, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * LatinaWiki? O_o --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (s)talkpage 17:42, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Alatinwiki (/oftopic) <B>RT </B>| Talk - The The Whacking editor 17:43, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Hate to break it to ya, boys, but my *unbiased* opinion is that Bork! Bork! Bork! is the way to go, personally. Seriously, check the language settings on Guild Wars. -71.109.174.171 05:38, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

New research about the Hit Locations
I think there was an Update because Elemental Attacks and Projectiles can strike the hands. I made a test and let someone shoot about 500 Lightning Orbs on myself and the conclusion was that 53 of the Orbs striked the hands.

The allocation for the hit locations with hands I found out: Head - ~7,4% Chest - ~41,4% Hands - ~10,6% Legs - ~31% Feet - ~9,6%


 * Thanks, that's useful information. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 05:00, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Nipple Guards
I noticed a lot of male armor has nipple guards and just wanted to bring it to everyone's attention, and its not only paragon. kinky.....? Lost-Blue 22:41, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, 1.3% of all hits hits the nipples in GW, so good nipple armor is vital. 193.44.6.146 18:57, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Old/Incomplete information
This page needs updating for ch2/ch3/eotn. --99.128.109.95 08:03, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks pretty up-to-date to me. Can you be more precise on what info is out of date? -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 09:02, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Some prices are out of date due to the Insignia update a long while back. For those unknowing what I mean: Where Proph and Factions armor got Insig slots. But that doesn't go for EotN/NF... So I don't know what other needs updating. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]]-- (s)talkpage 09:05, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Hermaphrodite conspiracy?
Has anyone noticed that if you put armor into storage and then look at it on another character of a different gender then it will show as that gender even though it's customized for another...ya just getting that out there. -71.109.174.171 05:42, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

dervish in the jade sea.
what happens if i were to take my dervish into the jade sea and attempt to buy luxon armour, or luxon elite armour? anyone know?


 * The armor crafters would show an empty crafting window. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  19:13, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Earrings
Earrings. I love the detail on the female armor. Things like this make you love <3 Silver Sunlight (T/C) 15:00, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Note at bottom of article is incorrect -- skills can stack to give over 25 armor.
The Note at the bottom is incorrect, some skills DO stack to provide more than 25 armor. For instance, Great Dwarf Armor stacks with "I Am Unstoppable!" to give plus 48 armor. This might, however, be unique to PvE only skills. I use these two skills together for running all the time. I watch damage get reduced when I already have one skill active and then put on the second skill and it reduces the damage by the expected 1/3 (24 armor reduces damage by a fraction a bit over 1/3). I specifically checked effect against Sandstorm Crag's Stone Daggers (I am a ranger carrying a shield with +10 vs earth). With neither skill active, I take 15 damage; on adding Great Dwarf, dmg drops to 10; and finally on adding Unstoppable, dmg drops to 6. GW-Susan 01:02, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I Am Unstoppable (and like one other skill, forget which) is currently bugged. The note is correct. Try Armor of Earth + Watch Yourself. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 01:08, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
 * More on this topic on the discussion page for Armor (rating) also. Shadowlance 13:12, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Armor Art update
I don't know where to post on this matter, but IMHO, every armor screenshot should have another picture in the overview category. A picture called without helmet showing the character in full attire without helmet. The reason is that you can a) choose to not display the helm unlike any other armor piece and b) it can make a character and thus the armor look COMPLETELY different, this is especially apparent on classes like Warrior, not so much on Elementalists...

Would you like a without helmet picture on every armor set gallery? 1:Yes. 2:No. -- Taki Fujiko  00:37, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * It's a bit too late for this, as all the galleries that are now "done" will all of a sudden be incomplete until someone uploads this new view, and the new image may look out of place if it is not taken with the same parameters as the rest of the gallery. Also, in the component view of each gallery you can see the tunic without the headpiece on it, so you can see how the "junction" between chest and head looks like.  Many armor styles also do not have headgear to begin with, so the gallery template would have to be coded to account for that difference, creating more inconsistency between galleries that have them and ones that don't.  The only classes that could potentially benefit from this would be warriors and dervishes, the other 8 would not really see a difference.  I personally don't see the need for this one at this time, but if it does get added, code for dervishes and warriors only, and maybe assassins, so that the template automatically recognizes this simply by class, and no other template input is needed (so that all the existing template instances do not need to be edited).  Last question to Taki: did you intend to have one image or both front and back?  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 02:51, 30 July 2009 (UTC)