Talk:Vanquisher

A friend and i cleared out icedome there the other day, cant remember the exact number but the amount of foes was around 120. -dekboi

Awesome, sounds like a sweet title! Sirocco 13:32, 19 April 2007 (CDT)

Is there a reference for this, or just pure speculation?
 * This page mentions it. BigAstro 14:06, 19 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Yes! Finally, a true PvE player's dream title. There is no way that you can just use a gimmick build or get run through for this title. Gotta clear out ENTIRE, HUGE areas like - Sorrow's Furnace, Icedome, The Undercity, Snake Dance, Turai's Procession, Prophet's Path...etc etc. Heheh, I can't wait for it. I'm looking forward to "winning" clearage of Old Ascalon against L24 Devourers and stuff! [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 22:00, 19 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I agree except its like exploration... Undercity and Sorrows Furnace are not required since their map is not visible. Rcollins779x 00:15, 23 May 2007 (CDT)

Oh yes, this will be fun... Muahahaha! -Samurai-JM - 22:04, 19 April 2007 (CDT)

LOVE the 60dp-and-you're-done aspect. Dreadnought's Drift anyone? :) Vanessa 23:47, 19 April 2007 (CDT)

Old Ascalon is WAY off. I am currently at 251 kills and it has not been "cleared".

i think that this page should be sorted out the way the collectors are--Kyro27 01:24, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Ya you're right. It would look a whole lot better. Rcollins779x 00:20, 23 May 2007 (CDT)

OLd ascalon
I just did old ascalon and had 248 enemys vanquished yet the page says 219.
 * Unless this is not apparent to anyone before, the spawns for explorable areas and mission vary somewhat from instance to instance in Tyria. Until much more data is collected on the number of spawns, numbers for clearing those areas will only be ballpark estimates. Waveclaw 00:53, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah, I just cleared Old Ascalon with 261. Given the fact that the numbers are so variable, I'm not sure they have any value or should be posted. I'd actually recommend removing them. XP-Cagey 01:07, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * They're definitely variable depending on your spawn. I got 196 kills for Plains of Jarin.  &mdash; [[Image:Fin_sig.gif|User:Kyrasantae]] kyrasantae   01:39, 20 April 2007 (CDT)

I am currently @ 225 vanquished and not yet complete. Finally @ 241(including 5 pets killed).
 * 230 and counting. WTF... a PAIN to find all the pop up mob's. How to you know when you have cleared the area? Does something show up on screen, like when you unlock a mod/rune/skill? EDIT: Nevermind... I see from here that the area name on the world map turns orange.    [[Image:jkr.jpg]]     02:22, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * The counter in your upkeep area will also turn gold, and the "mission completion" fanfare will play. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] (talk|contribs) 02:29, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * If you check the Old Ascalon page I posted that I had 267 and another guy had 270. Gandorf 03:10, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * My count was only 161 in Regent Valley, including probably 8 Moa slain. Anyone else find this number fluctuates a bit depending on the number of pets in the area? --Franzwald 13:51, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I had only 144 in Regent Valley. Pop ups and friendlies only count if you kill them.  I actually popped up two devourers after I vanquished the area and got my reward.  The count was not updated when I killed them.
 * I had 262 foes, in Old Ascalon. The Crawl were a pain. But maybe just because i was only with heroes. §: TůζipVõrζąx Talk 14:16, 23 April 2007 (CDT)

Pet creatures in Prophecies title
The Page doesn't state that pet creatures need to be killed for the title in Tyria, yet I have cleared areas in Tyria of all but pets and still am not done. Pets also count toward the kill count in Tyria. Gamer6432 01:00, 20 April 2007 (CDT) Gamer6432
 * I didn't have to kill any flamingos in Plains of Jarin to 'vanquish' the zone, so uncharmed animals are exempt it seems, unless they become hostile. &mdash; [[Image:Fin_sig.gif|User:Kyrasantae]] kyrasantae   01:40, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I've vanquished numerous Tyrian explorables without killing all pets. It is not necessary, although killing pets does increase your count.
 * I just cleared Sunqua Vale with a total of 137 foes vanquished, where the article currently notes 140, so spawns are obviously variable in Cantha as well. A couple more notes:
 * I watched two Naga Welps kill a Sensali Fighter, and that added a point to the counter, so any enemy that dies counts whether you kill it or not.
 * I killed a single tiger, and the counter updated, but there were others I left alive. Apparently you do not need to kill all tamable animals in an area, but they will add into the gold and experience you receive when you complete it.
 * &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] (talk|contribs) 02:27, 20 April 2007 (CDT)


 * I completed Sunqua Vale as well and did not kill one Tiger. The count did increase randomly as foes died to other creatures somewhere on the map. I had a kill count of 142. --Unzinc 03:59, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Now, the question is, does say, taking an MM build Olias, raising a minior army, then having them go hostile because Olias was killed affect the count, assuming you kill the now-hostile minions? --Valentein 10:43, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Killing minions does not affect the counter. Foo 10:55, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

Cantha
01:36, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Ferndale: Kills fot Title Point Needed: 322. I can provide screen later if needed. Sword.wind. 01:37, 20 April 2007 (CDT)


 * 142 Kills in Sunqua Vale to complete the area --Unzinc 03:55, 20 April 2007 (CDT)

Just removed Raisu Pavilion from the Cantha listing, partly cos there's no mobs in it :) and partly cos it isn't highlighted as a Hard Mode area when viewing with the M map. Also means the zones listed now totals 33 as required, instead of 34 :) --BramStoker 14:50, 23 April 2007 (CDT)

Elona
Plains of Jarin is listed as 211 foes, but I vanquished it and there were 201 enemies, can provide a screen if needed --Colonel Popcorn 02:41, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Just cleared the same with 194, screenshot available :) Jonisofsparta 15:26, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I had 211 exactly, and that included a couple of flamingos and warthogs. --- HyruleMaster 00:48, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

Vanquished The Alkali Pan with 302 kills; however, I finished the two quests Strange Bedfellows and Under New Management while I was there, which would have added to the count. a civilian 19:53, 20 April 2007 (CDT)

Updated Mehtani Keys. I got 270 for max. Screenie Ekrin 00:47, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

Zen Daijun
Went there, had buckets and buckets of foes. not 0.
 * Char not from Cantha? Speaking of which, anyone up for hard mode The Captured Son?  lol  Queen Schmuck 03:28, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * THAT would be difficult! Urock 02:41, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Only canthan chars get the easy point here. any tyrian char in the party and its full of afflicted, even if party leader is canthan and has completed quest.
 * Not fait :'( Fox007 12:21, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

Possibility
is it possible that the counter only recognizes the visible enemies when you load into a map? can anyone confirm/deny? Whitehike 04:02, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Nope. Popups count too. --[[Image:lazyeyes.png]]Ishmaeel .ping ; .peek; 04:06, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Popups do not count towards vanquisher! I have screen shots of me killing foes right after getting the vanquisher. Jogden 04:26, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * They definately do count. If they didn't I wouldn't have vanquished Old Ascalon. --Kale Ironfist 04:34, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * It could be possible that it just counts the number of active 'red' targets on the map. I went through Old Ascalon and I killed all the Moa Birds I saw, adding like 15 points. ~  Gold [[Image:DeanIcon.png]] Dean   - 04:39, 20 April 2007 (CDT)

Maybe they count only if they pop out? - &mdash; Abedeus   04:57, 20 April 2007 (CDT)


 * I just tested this out in Shadow's Passage (Probably the smallest zone possible to Vanquish), and we had the Area Cleared message appear when there were still visible enemies on the radar. I think that pop-up monsters aren't counted towards the total needed when clearing a zone but do count towards reaching that original number when you kill them, thus explaining how you can finish with enemies left walking around. -Gildan Bladeborn 05:02, 20 April 2007 (CDT)


 * The only way to make sure would be to keep manual count of revealed enemies and popups separately and comparing against the "maximum" claimed by the "vanquishing icon". If the visible enemy count matches the maximum, your theory would be confirmed. --[[Image:lazyeyes.png]]Ishmaeel .ping ; .peek; 05:06, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I killed a -lot- of popups in Plains of Jarin. I couldn't get the vanquished until one last visible enemy died, and I searched for that one guy for quite awhile.  If killing all the extra Mandragor counted toward the normal amount of non-popup critters, I should have had 1/4 of the map left to kill when I got vanquished.  Some popups may always count (like ground up pops) while some may not always count (like Am Fah top down pops).  For now no one knows for sure.  Queen Schmuck 05:21, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I killed a lot of pop ups in Regent Valley, as well, but did not get completion until I killed a grawl that was down in the tar. I also killed 2 pop ups after I vanquished the area.

Number of Foes to Vanquish
Alright, here's how it works: The game keeps a number of foes to kill for the current zone, however, this number is neither fixed nor determined when you first enter an explorable. In fact, I suspect the number required to be zero or one when you first zone in. The game increases this number (which I will call "max") as soon enemies are considered active by the engine. The enemies in the map are not "active" until you approach and see them on the radar (well, the engine's range could be larger than the radar, in fact). This is true for both visible enemies and popups. When an enemy becomes active, the "max" number goes up for it. Every foe you kill counts against this max (except for summoned and resurrected creatures). Every tame-able animal you kill also counts against this max but it does not raise the max number. Hence, it is possible to vanquish a zone without killing every single creature in it.

Shadow's Passage has a pretty consistent spawn pattern. The mob classes differ slightly but the numbers stay the same. It is also a good testing place because the mobs are positioned far apart and there are several popups. I will post some screen snippets below to demonstrate the mechanics.



It looks like killing 2 more will complete the task.

Because several more afflicted appeared on our radar when we advanced.

The progress bar actually went down as the maximum went up.



There are still more visible mobs and popups in this zone but they did not count because they are still off the radar.

In another run, I left the last popup knight alive and pushed forward. As soon as we popped up the mob guarding the locked chest, the progress bar receded swiftly and we had to clear the entire zone to complete the task.

Of course, after you vanquish the zone, the bar does not go back if you reveal more enemies. Effectively, you accomplished the task earlier but lost out on the extra experience and gold. --Ishmaeel .ping ; .peek; 06:45, 20 April 2007 (CDT)


 * I don't think radar range or enemies being "active" has much of anything to do with it. When you first enter Sunqua Vale, for example, the only active enemies would be 10 or so Mantids, so that according to your theory, killing them should run up the progress bar fairly quickly.  This was not my experience, though - the bar increased extremely slowly as I killed them, as if it already knew there were ~137 foes in the area.
 * I'll agree on the popups, though, at least until more testing can be done - like clearing Kinya Province without triggering the Kappa on the shore. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] (talk|contribs) 09:47, 20 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Yeah. In retrospection, I see that the "initial zero max" part of my theory was the softest part. I was skewed to think that way because of the huge advancement in the bar for the killing of just two critters (it's approximately 1/5 of the total) in the beginning. However, a more detailed math and pixel analysis could reveal that the advancement was correct if the initial max is equal to the number of non-pop-ups in the map. But there is also the case where the counter displays 6 and 8 -- there is no discernible difference in the position of the bar and there were definitely no popups up until after those shots. Maybe the game determines a ballpark figure for the initial value and adjusts on the fly as you explore around.--[[Image:lazyeyes.png]]Ishmaeel .ping ; .peek; 10:33, 20 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Did another test and also took screenshots with the largest interface setting on the highest resolution I can display. When we killed the first two afflicted, the bar was (by the pixel count) 1/4 full. In other words, the game thinks there are 8 monsters in the map by the time one gets near the first mob. This is consistent with the "nearby" creature count : first mob of 2 + boss group of 4 + second mob of 2. Actual visible creature count in the SP is about 14. With popups, the total reaches 22. I also watched the bar closely after the 8th kill. The bar did go down as we advanced and the next mob's names became visible and it did go down again when we popped out the knights.


 * I cannot figure out the case with the Sunqua Vale. It is clear that the "initial max" is not the number of non-popups but it is also clear that SV does not contain that many critters in the starting area, even if I consider the "activation range" to be twice as big as the compass range. The only explanation I can think of is that there is a fixed initial max for each area and this value is based on the non-popup count but it is also below that value so as to allow a little leeway for the would-be vanquishers.


 * Oh, here's an idea: Why don't I go through the SP and re-zone from the other side to see if the initial max seems to be 8, again?--[[Image:lazyeyes.png]]Ishmaeel .ping ; .peek; 11:55, 20 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Tried that too and the initial value (after you kill the first three Knights) seems to be 11, not 8 if you enter SP from Bukdek Byway. Thinking about the layout of that end of the map, I can only arrive at 11 by counting both visible (3 Knights + 3 Mixed) and hidden mobs (5 popups guarding the Locked Chest). I'm stumped. --[[Image:lazyeyes.png]]Ishmaeel .ping ; .peek; 12:55, 20 April 2007 (CDT)

Lacks uniformity
Are these title track names confirmed? Can't understand why there's Tyrian Vanquisher and Canthan but not Elonian Vanquisher. At any rate, Vanquisher of (continent) sounds alot better.136.8.1.100 05:48, 20 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Individual Vanquisher Titles won't show in the hero menu until you cleared at least one zone for that continent. The Elona title IS called Elonian Vanquisher Title, btw. If someone wanna adjust it on the page, be ny guest. Also, what I noticed as well is that upon vanquishing an area, you lose 15DP. Disconnected 16:57, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * You gain experience for vanquishing an area; that's why you lost DP. a civilian 22:20, 20 April 2007 (CDT)

Corrections
Just changed Griffons Mouth to 47-52 instead of 50-52. (Soulflame 06:31, 20 April 2007 (CDT))

I just changed the max in The Alkali Pan from 305 to 307. --Jacho

Changed Deldrimor Bowl max to 195 and removed the quest ^ Hungry Devour since i did not have it active and had to kill a greater number of foes then listed for vanquisher. --Ash
 * Then should it have a \/ arrow? --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]]   13:15, 13 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Hungry Devourer causes lots of Succulent Junipers to spawn in areas that would otherwise be completely free of enemies, so it does increase the number of enemies. I added it to the table because I knew that, although I haven't actually vanquished the area myself.  Apparently no one has vanquished the area with that quest active so far.  I'm re-adding it because I know that info is correct. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:27, 13 May 2007 (CDT)
 * You should probably not add unconfirmed information... quests sometimes remove/adds enemies accordindly... just because it adds like 15 enemies that werent there before, it may have reduced the normal spawns for the centaurs... I'll leave the quest there since I cant confirm it at this time, but plz confirm before changing wiki. --Ash

Changed Kessex Peak minimum to 156 with quest Villainy of Galrath active. Added significant pop up check for nightmares since over 20 can be avoided. --Ash

Changed Talus Chute minimum to 277 and removed Avoidable pop-ups check mark. Only a hand full of shadows spawn and are unavoidable since you have to kill enemies before and after you pass their spawn location. Rcollins779x 01:44, 21 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Except for the minor fact that there ARE shadow popups that are avoidable. When trying to avoid combat(ie, when going to Dreadnaught's or Radamon or something) I try to take the clear paths. In the clear paths, there are always popups. If you are NOT trying to avoid enemies, you have no reason to take those paths, and as such will never aggro those shadows. That makes them avoidable popups. DKS01 03:06, 21 May 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm still not sure how anyone could ever really know if there are avoidable popups or not. If you avoided them, how do you know they would have popped up? Perhaps they wouldn't have popped up at all on that particular instance of the map. How does a person know where to step to avoid popups anyway? I always found this particularly vague. &mdash; [[User:JediRogue|'''JediRogue ''']] 03:14, 21 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Umm, it's real simple. I went to an area that enemies don't spawn at, that I didn't have to go to. Enemies popped up. If you do go there, they do pop up, if you do not, they don't popup. Popup spawns are not random, certain enemies will always popup at certain places(like the devourers just outside Ascalon city). If those locations are in an area that it isn't mandatory for you to go through, that makes them avoidable. And having going through Talas a few times(for capping and such), I KNOW there are places that a)have popups, and b)are not places you HAVE to go through, even if going for vanquisher title. Thus, avoidable popups. DKS01 03:41, 21 May 2007 (CDT)
 * So popups always popup in the same exact location everytime you enter a map? If that's the case, it would be extremely useful for someone to provide maps of these locations so they could avoided. &mdash; JediRogue  [[Image:JediRogueSig.jpg]] 04:49, 21 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Some do, yes. When you leave Ascalon city, there's gonna be a devourer popup right outside the potal there every single time, no matter what else spawns on the map. Other popups locations are set depending on what else spawns. For example, leaving Bergen Hot Springs, there's about 4 different enemy "layouts". If you get the setup with 2 visible groups of 5 skeletal rangers and a patrolling Necrid Horseman, there will be no hrasping ghoul popup spawns at all. If you get the layout with 1 group of 5 rangers, no horseman, and a smaller group of 3 rangers nearby, there will be a grasping ghoul popup near the smaller ranger group. If you get the layout with 5 rangers, and a nearby group of 2 skeletal sorcerors and a mesmer, there will also be a ghoul popup. I can step outside town, see what enemies are immediately visible, then tell you if and where the ghoul popups will be. Many other maps are layed out the same way. Some "permanent" popups that will be there no matter what(there's a couple of these in Whitman's Folly, the Ascalon one, the Frost Wurms in Lornars, a desert wurm guaranteed spawn in Alkali pan, a few others), and some that will be in a specific place in regards to that particular map's spawn. The thing is, once you know the map well enough to see which "spawn" you got, you'll know where the popups are, if there are any at all. Just requires going through an area repeatedly, until you can learn it's various enemy layouts, as it were. DKS01 06:51, 21 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Regarding DKS01 statement, this is Vanquisher Talk meaning when attempting to vanquish a map pop-ups affect the minimum and maximum required foes. Sure you could do something other then vanquishing the map but in this talk the shadows south of ranik cannot be avoided when vanquishing Talus Shute Map. Rcollins779x 07:17, 21 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Learn to READ chief, there ARE popup groups that can be avoided WHEN ATTEMPTING TO VANQUISH THE MAP. There are shadow popups in MORE THAN ONE SPOT, and some of them ARE AVOIDABLE, even when vanquishing. Do I need to type this slower so you can understand, or what? DKS01 07:51, 21 May 2007 (CDT)
 * GW:NPA. --Mgrinshpon 08:24, 21 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Unless otherwise confirmed, Talus Chute does not have pop-ups others then near Camp Rankor, which are unavoidable for Vanquisher Title. Rcollins779x 22:57, 22 May 2007 (CDT)

Changed Ice Floe minimum to 191. Rcollins779x 07:17, 21 May 2007 (CDT)

Changed Mineral Springs minimum to 182 with DDF active.Rcollins779x 09:45, 23 May 2007 (CDT)

Not sure where to put his but when you change the minimum and maximum required be sure to click the location and match the numbers too... there is conflicting information otherwise ex... Diessa Lowlands and Pocket Flats. --Ash 05:21, 17 May 2007 (CDT)

regent valley
it took me 167 foes....that includes killing all moa birds -- Vanessa 06:46, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * As I mentioned above, it only took me 161 to get it completed. I think the post above about killing pets explains the discrepancy quite well. --Franzwald 16:44, 20 April 2007 (CDT)

8 titles for the price of 4
Anyone else think this could be a real decent bonus to earn cartographer title while they killed entire areas earning legendary cartographer and legendary vanquisher almost at the same time? Whitehike 10:56, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Yes for explorable area, but explorer include missions. So yes, almost.--Vezz 11:51, 20 April 2007 (EST)
 * Not so much for Tyria, but for the other campaigns, yes. &mdash; [[Image:Fin_sig.gif|User:Kyrasantae]] kyrasantae   12:49, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Already attempting it AND Maybe the sunsprar one and lightbirnger at same time ;) Torment 07:51, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

Foes needed
North Kryta Province: I needed 205 foes, not 212. --Tsubasa Ikemoto 12:19, 20 April 2007 (CDT)


 * You could just go ahead and add 205 as the lower range. Actual number needed depends on random spawn and exploration style. --[[Image:lazyeyes.png]]Ishmaeel .ping ; .peek; 12:30, 20 April 2007 (CDT)

About editing this page... can we update the tables based on our experience, or do we have to prove it to someone first? I have screenshots that show a 231 count for Perdition Rock, and a 377 count for Snake Dance, if you care to check. I went ahead and edited the page. Doing snake dance with heroes and henchies took almost 5 hours! Catbus 21:47, 21 April 2007 (CDT)


 * You don't have to prove anything to anyone. Be bold in editing. &mdash; Skuld 20:15, 21 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Okay, thanks for the vote of confidence! Just don't blame me if Sinbad ends up dead. ;) Catbus 21:47, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

about vanquisher
If i go and kill say 50 enemies in the desolation and then decide to leave and then come back later. Does the count start over? sort of like, desolation has a total of about 300 foes. do i have to kill all 300 foes in 1 run? i can't leave and go to an outpost and then back later on that day? 17:26, 20 April 2007 j1j2j3


 * Count starts over every time. If you leave before you "Vanquish", you will have to start over next time. If you complete the task and re-zone, the counter resets again, but you do not lose the point towards your title. Also, you can get the XP & gold again if you complete it once more. --[[Image:lazyeyes.png]]Ishmaeel .ping ; .peek; 12:30, 20 April 2007 (CDT)


 * I know the count starts over everytime i just want to know is do I have to kill EVERYTHING in one run? I'm just not getting hard mode right now.17:34, 20 April 2007 J1j2j3


 * I already responded to that ("If you leave before you..."), but it seems I was not clear enough. Yes, you have to kill (almost) everything in one run. --[[Image:lazyeyes.png]]Ishmaeel .ping ; .peek; 12:39, 20 April 2007 (CDT)

Well thanks for making it clearly. 17:40, 20 April 2007 J1j2j3

Do you have to be in hard mode to vanquish an area? Rhia Aryx 16:40, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Answered my own question. Yes, it does. Rhia Aryx 16:43, 20 April 2007 (CDT)

Traveler's Vale
Though I dont have proof if it, I cleared Traveler's Vale last night with as little as 79 enemies....I should have taken a screenshot but I didnt think of it..went ahead and updated the article though. --Mwpeck 13:35, 20 April 2007 (CDT)

PArty killed 270 foes to complete, mind you moas and pets coutn too!
 * Killing pets adds to the count but not killing them does not prevent you from vanquishing... same with pop ups... causing them to pop up and killing them adds to the count but not forcing them to pop up wont prevent you from vanquishing.

Just did traveler's Vale with 168...or some number close to that

Vanquisher Title
It seems that the mobs vary for the title, as different users are reporting different numbers for the same areas. This will make the Wiki details on Vanquisher only approximate, but still useful.
 * I am 100% Certain that is is because of Mobs killing other mobs. The Old Ascalon Page is a good place to notice this. The Elementals and the Grawl Fight, which is why we've got numbers from 254, 270, 263 and 273. I think it all depends on how much the Mobs kill each other. Also, Pop-Ups may be a factor.
 * No, when mobs kill each other your number goes up, even if you haven't participated. I was watching some of the aforementioned mobs in Old Ascalon slaughtering each other (they're a lot better at it now ;p) and my number vanquished went up by like three. I bet it's solely due to the slight randomness of spawns.&mdash;Aranth 14:41, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Could it be possible that you got credit from them because they were in range? If they were out of range when they killed one another, they might not be counted.  Also, could it matter if it was an NPC that killed a mob? Xylia 17:44, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Is it even possible for mobs to kill each other without you coming in range? 24.127.51.40 18:03, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Depends on range. If it's radar range, maybe, aggro range isn't necessary for them to fight though, and if they kill each other outside your aggro range they do still count towards total as a field test between tengu and undead proved. DKS01 08:34, 23 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Popups are definitely a factor. We noticed in Old Ascalon that the completion bar would move a pixel in the wrong direction when we'd hit an area of 6+ Devourers. Also, and I don't know the exact effect, but if you attack peaceful animals, such as Moa Birds, the resulting kill increments the counter (and thus the final gold/experience earned). --Jeremy Winston 14:43, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * In reference to the points above. "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" Sirocco 13:08, 29 May 2007 (CDT)

Sorrow's Furnace
Does SF count? Can you simply vanquish it while on the easy scouting quest? -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 22:49, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I doubt it, as there is no visible marker on the world map. --Jeremy Winston 23:20, 20 April 2007 (CDT)

Wajjun Bazaar
Has anyone tried this place? I was wondering about the Seeking Brother Tosai quest where the Am Fah are green. Will this keep you from clearing it? --Giehox Nemesis


 * Actually, it probably makes it a lot easier. --Shattered Self 03:49, 21 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Looks like the green Am Fah don't count. I was fighting the Mantids near the green Am Fah and the bar progress was really fast with just the mantids. When I killed them all it was almost full. Actually, I was wondering if there might be a way to do this even easier than just having the Am Fah friendly to you, since as I said, the bar almost filled with just the Mantids. It seemed that I had to kill just a few more to vanquish until I went near the other end of the map (Ele Boss) where the bar went from almost complete to almost 3/4 instead. --Giehox Nemesis

Fahranur, The First City
After several tries to beat the Jokanur Diggings mission in Hard Mode, I decided to end the night with something succesful; to clear Fahranur of all foes. I fought through hordes of undead, skales and insects. My henchmen took a nap after 5 Skale Lashers simultanously unleashed a Grenth's Fingers -> Chilling Victory combo: I survived though... without resurrection signet. So I solo-battle my way south through a few groups of skales until 2 large mobs of insects suprised me. We got resurrected and kept on searching for foes - until it reached 187 and the game crashed. I was however able to reconnect, now finding myself lying dead on the ground with the henchies fighting around me. Fortunately, they hade brought res. The Foe Counter had now reached 193, and I spotted the last mob consisting of two Fanged Ibogas and a Stormseed Jacaranda. Zhed put some wards up and I aggroed them. The Jacaranda fell. The first Iboga fell. The last Iboga almost fell... Smiling, I watched its healthbar sinking, but when it reached 0, I was rewarded by a grey box telling me something like this: "A serious problem has occured which prevents the program from continue running. Please write a few notes that can help prevent the error from occuring in the feature, then click the "Send" button." Things like this just don't happen. I picked up my chin from the table and wrote down my history (shaking). And I thought failing in the Mission felt miserable. I clicked the Send button and hoped that GW through a miracle would continue running, but it shut down. 2.5 hours of playtime down the drain. I stared at the screen a few seconds before I decided to log in again, hoping the Vanquished area would have been counted. As I clicked "Play", a new box appeared. It did not display the normal connection-problem message, but this: "Guild Wars did not shut down cleanly the last time you played. Would you like to try to reconnect to the area where you were disturbed?" Yes, of course. The attempt suceeded and I appeared in Fahranur once again, now awarded by a golden helmet on my statusbar:



Weird indeed. Happy about the ending I loged out got to bed. Now I wish I could recover the Screen I took consisting of a grey error-box with the background of a burning Iboga and a full Foe Counter... Yaki 11:51, 21 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Heh, I guess I should have taken a look at the Known Bug Issues-section ;) Yaki 12:37, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

Iron Horse Mine
I don't know how to manipulate the tables but I cleared Iron Horse Mine with 182 kills. Also, why does it matter how many enemies there are per region? Unless there's a special title for clearing the shiverpeaks or something I do not see the point. 65.30.20.78 14:33, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I agree about the totals, and I would also remove the time part. it's really subjective, and could quickly become an ego contest. Foo 14:42, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
 * it should be a range, 24-92 minutes. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 16:10, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

"Rough Time"
What is the point of these entries? It should vary a LOT between different teams. &mdash;Aranth 14:54, 21 April 2007 (CDT)


 * I agree, I run 4x sf, MM and curse necro, my results are likely to be wildly different from wammo + hench &mdash; Skuld 15:10, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

ok, got rid of it &mdash; Skuld 16:45, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

Core
What about core areas like the FoW or UW? Would they count toward the title? You can clear them on hard mode, but I'm not sure if they count towards the title itself.  Marin Bloodbane  ( Talk ) 15:31, 21 April 2007 (CDT)


 * They are not in Tyria, Elona, nor Cantha. They should not count towards any track. &mdash; Skuld 16:04, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
 * It's pretty much like the Cartography titles, isn't it? Areas not shown on the world map (M) does not count. Yaki 17:07, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Except that some "underground" areas that don't count for Cartographer do count for Vanquisher, i.e. The Hidden City of Ahdashim and Bahdok Caverns in Elona. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] (talk|contribs) 11:04, 23 April 2007 (CDT)

Nightfallen Garden
has anyone tried vanquishing the Nightfallen Garden? does it count at all, or does it replace Garden of Seborhin? --Honorable Sarah 21:13, 21 April 2007 (CDT)


 * I think it's like the cartographer titles; Areas not shown on the World Map does not count. Nightfallen is Underground and thus does not count. Yaki 06:09, 22 April 2007 (CDT)


 * This logic no longer applies, as Bahdok Caverns counts despite being underground. New testing might be apreciated. --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]]    14:42, 22 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Bahdok and The Hidden City of Ahdashim, whilst not mappable, do have their names displayed on the world map. Therefore I am guessing that is why they count for the Vanquisher title, whilst the RoT areas do not. RossMM 15:13, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

Island of Shehkah
I cannot imagine this area is needed for Hard Mode, since you cannot actually use Hard Mode there. Anybody object to its removal? --   21:22, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
 * It's not even highlighted as a Hard Mode area. You can't even return there after leaving. Sirocco 21:30, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
 * That was my point. I'll remove it from the list then. --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]]    21:33, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

Bahdok Caverns
Does this area count for Vanquisher Title? --   23:09, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I don't think so, since it's not shown on the world map. It's the same for The Undercity, The Hidden City of Ahdashim, Nightfallen Garden etc. Can anyone confirm? Yaki 06:09, 22 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Scratch that, both caverns and ahdashim counts. Yaki 07:03, 22 April 2007 (CDT)
 * you can't explore them but when ever you have been there you will see the name on the you world map including the red mark around it when you put hard mode on

I don't think the Undercity is counted. 128.255.194.148 19:31, 2 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Why do people keep asking if areas are counted? Its simple, turn on hard mode, press M, if it has a little helm around its name it can be vanquished. --[[Image:DualAttack.png]] Kirbman 10:49, 31 May 2007 (CDT)

Majesty's Rest
For this purpose, I think it will be less confusing if Majesty's Rest is only included in one area. Any opinions on which? --   23:11, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
 * IIRC, Majesty's Rest should be part of Kryta. --Rainith 06:19, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

SilverWood
added upper limit at 202. i cleared entire area because i was maping as well. but its totaly possible i missed a few hidden spawns.

TOC
could someone smarter then i in wikicode change the TOC to an abreviated one so it doesn't show all levels? --Honorable Sarah 23:16, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Done, made it go 2 levels deep. --Rainith 06:20, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

Plains of Jarin 8 People?
Theoretically you could have 8 people to vanquish Plains of Jarin if you complete the Blacktide Den mission with Khim, Gehraz, Sogolon and Herta as well as three heros. Not tested it out as I had already vanquished Plains of Jarin before I thought of it, but as those henchmen have stayed on my team in the past I think it should be possible. Rubikon 05:18, 22 April 2007 (CDT)
 * You could. If you did so, I suggest beating Blacktide Den on Normal Mode, then changing to Hard Mode in the outpost. --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]]    14:40, 22 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Added to notes. --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]]   14:45, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

Or you could just do a quicky run from either of the locations. A friend and I just did Zehlon Reach with 8 people by just simply running from blacktide den through the cliffs onward.
 * You can do Zehlon that way because there is a direct portal between the two areas without an outpost. You can't walk to Plains of Jarin without passing through either The Astralarium or Champion's Dawn, so you have to "trick" the system like this if you want an 8-person party.  (I did it just fine with a 4-person party, though, so it's not even necessary.)  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] (talk|contribs) 12:31, 25 April 2007 (CDT)

Talkpage Usage
Is it just me, or does anyone else think something is wrong when 50% of this Talkpage consists of reports of max/min vanquished foes? If you've got a number which isn't in the scale already listed in the article, feel free to extended it. I can't see any note which lists tricky pop-ups and other helpful stuff on this talkpage. Numbers are being discussed, but tips are forgotten. The foe counter in-game is enough help to see if you miss 1 or 20 foes. Yaki 13:51, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

Turai's Procession and Troubled Lands
Should more info be explicitly added to the notes on the quest effects on the title? For example, I've noticed that only the first time you kill each Tormented Land is counted towards the Vanquish count for the area. Might be better noting that than just adding the link to the Troubled Lands article, where nothing is said about it's relation with the title. I can add it myself if needed. ;) KazDoran 07:16, 24 April 2007 (CDT)
 * BTW, by "each time you kill each one" I mean you get only one kill for each place where they spawn. Just to clear things out. :P KazDoran 07:24, 24 April 2007 (CDT)
 * The Battle of Turai's Procession will ruin your day. Big time. --Old Man Of Ascalon  [[Image:25px-Poiso.jpg]]  (T/C) 12:09, 24 April 2007 (CDT)

Problematic Hero AI?
Can someone shed some light on how they are vanquishing areas with only heroes and henchmen? I don't do a whole lot of micromanagement, except to flag them spread out around me. But I do seem to notice that heroes/henchie AI feels... dumber than before. Is hard mode really that much harder? Or did an unmentioned update also lowered the AI level in hard mode to the monster AI in normal mode. Why do I say that? Well, for one, neither Dunkoro nor Tahlkora runs from enemy melee. They just happily stand there while they get pounded on. Sure, I could flag them away, but when you're trying to curse the enemy melee with hexes (and staying alive), it's a little beyond me to baby sit the hero monks at the same time. And is it just me and do they seem dumber at healing? Neither my barrage party set up nor my searing flames party set up seems to be working effectively, most especially so in the later areas. I'm getting my ass handed to me in Vabbi. And 4-man parties? I get wiped by insects before Dunkoro goes down in almost record time... Or is this really my problem and I just got so spoiled with the pre-hard mode normal mode? -- Ab.Er.Rant (msg Aberrant80) 09:25, 24 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I did not noticed specific AI problems, but I did notice that things don't work as well as they did before. Hard mode means that there is less forgiveness for mistakes. In other words, in normal mode, your strengths compensated for your weaknesses, but in hard mode, a weakness quickly becomes a liability. You need to improve your strategy and adapt them to your ennemies to win. Alaris 10:01, 24 April 2007 (CDT)
 * No AI problems? Just me then I guess, I just get so frustrated that Dunkoro just stands there while 4 lvl 22 juvenile bladed termites are whacking at him. I guess I can't avoid needing to customise builds for specific areas instead of just bringing my default skill sets. Yea, I'm lazy. It's just frustrating to spend time trying to clear an area and then fail, because time in GW is a luxury for me. Failure = time wasted. Darn it. -- Ab.Er.Rant (msg Aberrant80) 22:38, 24 April 2007 (CDT)


 * This is what I've been using on Istan, cleared out Plains, Zehlon, Cliffs, and Fahranur so far:
 * Warrior hero: OQATEVqW3xOOYIMrF+CXJtA7AA
 * Necro hero: OABDQqp3O5B7AkoSMGmqzhOB
 * Monk hero: OwAS0U4Ox1Nyv7jUppr3N0I
 * Henchmen: Gehraz, Sogolon, Abasi, Odurra
 * Myself: Elementalist, dual-attunement fire nuker (no Meteor Shower/Fire Storm)
 * Abasi, Gehraz, warrior hero, and necro hero combine to keep the enemy poisoned, bleeding, crippled, and blind at least 50% of the time. The monk hero and Sogolon do a fine job keeping everyone alive (Gehraz died three times, and Odurra and myself once each, while vanquishing Fahranur).  Odurra is great support with interrupts, and I end up being the main direct-damage person.  Massive non-localized nukage + massive degen = decimation.
 * Admittedly, this is only Istan, and I have no doubt that I'll have to modify it later, probably even for the remaining areas on Istan itself. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] (talk|contribs) 12:48, 25 April 2007 (CDT)

Yeah. It was really annoying when clearing out some stuff...the ahrdest one for me is clearing arjok ward, you have to clear the AoB guy's fortress AND the fortress of Jahai. Hardmode really shows the meaning of pulling and taking things slowly. IT also annoys the **** out of me looking for just ONE guy. On one of the Istan areas I spent 45 minutes looking for one little iboga. He got bugged and was stuck inside a cliff. The only thing that actually hurt him was a meteor shower from your friendly neighborhood centaur.&mdash; Cheese Slaya  ( Talk ) 20:25, 24 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Yea, I had to run around cliffs of dohjok to look for that last group of skales I missed because I seemed to have missed their patrol path twice. -- Ab.Er.Rant (msg Aberrant80) 22:38, 24 April 2007 (CDT)

Anyone have a good hero/hence build for dealing with 2x Awakened Gray Giant, 3x Awakened Thought Leech or 1x Ruby Djinn. --Vezz
 * If you are having problems with meelers I would suggest running Wards and/or Aegis. 128.255.194.148 19:30, 2 May 2007 (CDT)
 * None of the 3 monsters I am concern are melee. Please be knowledgeable before answering random stuff. --Vezz
 * I run Norgu with interrupts, Guilt/Mistrust, and Power Block. He has no difficulty taking down one Ruby Djinn.  My difficulty is dealing with TWO Ruby Djinn.--Carmine 13:32, 31 May 2007 (CDT)

added note
I just added a note that the vanquisher and explorer titles can be easily done together. --Saji-Kun 21:18, 24 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Tips: (1) Use level 2 headers for talk pages. (2) Use the summary text field above the "save page" button to record what you did. No need to mention it in the talk page :) -- Ab.Er.Rant (msg Aberrant80) 22:39, 24 April 2007 (CDT)

Table Formatting
The way these tables are formatting is making the page look horrible (even at 1280x1024 resolution) when individuals post lengthy notes. Any ideas to clean this up? -- Ale 17:08, 25 April 2007 (CDT)
 * All we really need is to define the column widths in the header of each table. That will make the Notes text wrap instead of widening the table to fill the whole page.  Besides that, though, I had a couple ideas:
 * Add a column to list quests that significantly affect the number of enemies, instead of talking about them in the Notes. Precede the quest with a &#x25b2; if it increases the number or a &#x25bc; if it decreases the number.
 * Add a column to note whether there are a significant number of pop-up groups that can be avoided (or, alternatively, searched out) in order to purposely decrease (or increase) the number of foes.

! Region || Min Foe Count || Max Foe Count || Notable Quests || Pop-ups? || Notes
 * - align="center" valign="top"
 * - align="center" valign="top"
 * Wajjun Bazaar || ? || 125 || &#x25bc; Seek out Brother Tosai  &#x25b2; Street Justice || [[Image:Nope.png|16px]] ||
 * }
 * Those are my ideas for now, if I think of any more I'll add them here. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] (talk|contribs) 01:57, 26 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Another column for 8 members party strategy since it seems to be a standard strategy to use to clear areas. --Vezz 07:57, 26 April 2007 (EST)
 * I think strategy should be put on the area pages themselves as it would totally clutter up this one. &mdash; [[Image:Fin_sig.gif|User:Kyrasantae]] kyrasantae   13:51, 26 April 2007 (CDT)
 * That's definitely a good consideration. Although there's only a few places where such an 8-man strategy is possible (Istan, Crystal Desert), other "strategy"-style tips would indeed clutter up the page here.  And I just realized I had the arrows backwards in my example table.... &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] (talk|contribs) 14:32, 26 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I would add that most Tyria area can be done in group of 8 starting from Temple of Age too. I believe you can make your long way in easy mode, enter a city with 8/4, switch to hard mode, exit and do the area. --Vezz 15:07, 26 April 2007 (EST)
 * I don't think that will work - entering an outpost with a party that is too large for that outpost will result in the party being split up, won't it? &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:16, 26 April 2007 (CDT)
 * IIRC, a party full of PC's is not split. Henchies do "leave" though. --[[Image:lazyeyes.png]]Ishmaeel .ping ; .peek; 16:19, 26 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Ah, gotcha. You can hardly blame me for now knowing, though, since I rarely play with more than one other person (my fiancee).  Still applies for people like me who use h/h, I'd have to be in hard mode all the way.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 17:23, 26 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Not that bad id, i personally like the id, but lets see what others think 217.123.100.130 13:02, 26 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I agree, this set-up is nice. The notes thing is really moot in some cases. A few of the hints mentioned would make things harder than need be (North Kryta Province for example, I left from LA with no problems). I'd like to see this changed to Dr. I's proposal. --[[Image:Flask_Of_Firewater_small.jpg]] Ale 17:16, 26 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I'll be visiting family this weekend and won't be able to help much myself until Sunday, unfortunately, but if anyone else feels like starting on that, go ahead. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 17:23, 26 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Looks like you managed to get it anyway, nice job. --[[Image:Flask_Of_Firewater_small.jpg]] Ale 22:32, 26 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Bah, edit conflict! :P Anyway, yeah, it wasn't too much work to re-design the tables.  I was thinking more of what it would take to get a comprehensive list of the quests and pop-up-statuses into said tables, but I guess that's what the community is for.
 * Unfortunately, I was unable to figure out a good place to stick the notes on larger-than-normal party size. Since most of them are area-specific, I suppose they should go to the areas' articles, but I'll let someone else decide that. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 22:36, 26 April 2007 (CDT)

"Significant" pop-ups
When I wrote in the article that the table should note areas with "significant numbers of pop-ups," I was hoping people would understand that to mean lots of pop-ups. Areas like Traveler's Vale and Watchtower Coast do have pop-ups, true, but single Juniper Barks or Spined Aloes (which usually spawn when you aggro a normal group anyway) do not constitute "significant" pop-ups, in my mind. Perhaps we should simplify the language and just say "a large number of pop-ups"? Should probably also note "avoidable" pop-ups. Hmm... let's see how this works. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 11:21, 27 April 2007 (CDT)
 * hmm, i just added watchtower as popups... didn't read this first Pulpulpullie 11:48, 27 April 2007 (CDT)
 * It was your edit that prompted me to make this change, actually. As it was, what you did was fine, so no worries. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 14:01, 27 April 2007 (CDT)

Resurrection shrine of opposite faction
I found as I was Vanquishing Pongmei Valley that if you come upon a resurrection shrine of the opposite faction Luxon/Kurzick), and kill the small group there, it will also add to your "Vanquished Foes" counter, but is not required. Similar to tamable pets pretty much. Advantage BMW 16:36, 28 April 2007 (CDT)

I don't know if killing them is the best idea. The merchant has been known to run into town, and might then become out of reach to kill. I would just bribe them and pick up the blessing (+3 regen +25 health) 128.255.194.148 19:28, 2 May 2007 (CDT)


 * You can't take the blessing if they're not from your allegiance.. &mdash; <font color=#477391>Corsaire  [[image:Corsaire_Signature.gif]] 10:21, 3 May 2007 (CDT)


 * You can once you bribe them, according to Kurzick Priest. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 18:09, 3 May 2007 (CDT)

Tangle Root
Hate this place now...but anyways I got vanquisher w/ only 204 enemies, and I walked over everything about 10 times. That's 23 less than the other minimum. Nhnowell 21:47, 3 May 2007 (CDT)

Maybe nothing new
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/554/vanquisherxz2.png but still i'm proud of it^^--Want2be 16:11, 12 May 2007 (CDT)

Sulfurous Wastes
I have the Requiem for a Brain and A Show of Force quests on and have killed 383 foes still with no title -- Alperui 06:37, 19 May 2007 (CDT)
 * I just vanquished that area with both of those quests active and a total of 386 foes. Amagawd 20:52, 28 May 2007 (CDT)

Location articles
appear to list the min and max amounts of foes needed to be vanquished in that area. I'm wondering if thats wise seeing as these amounts are so frequently updated. That would make two different places one would have to go to update that. I think we should either exclude that data from the location pages or provide a template that somehow shares the data so is in only one place. &mdash; <font color=#7E6B99>JediRogue  17:38, 19 May 2007 (CDT)
 * I say either make a template (if we can) or just provide a link to this page. --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]]   17:43, 19 May 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm afraid that the downside of using a template would be that it would make this page that much more difficult to edit. This is a relatively new article and it is already on the top of the list of pages with the most revisions. Then again, I don't know enough about templates to be sure of that. It might be as simple as making one that reads from this page. &mdash; <font color=#7E6B99>JediRogue  [[Image:JediRogueSig.jpg]] 17:56, 19 May 2007 (CDT)
 * That's what I was thinking of, and why I said "if we can". Any template that makes editing this page harder isn't worth it. --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]]    18:17, 19 May 2007 (CDT)

North Kryta Province
Vanquished North Kryta Province with 126 kills while on Defend North Kryta Province (Titan Quest)

"completing" quests
Re: edits by Rcollins779x &mdash; Most of the quests listed affect the number of foes while active, but some only affect the number of foes after completing the quest, thus why it is necessary to note in the table that the quest must be completed instead of just listing it. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 09:49, 24 May 2007 (CDT)

TOA - Riverside province
It is possible (with alot of time and dedication) to clear everything between toa and riverside province(all of maguma altho not sure havnt checked) useing 8 people as toa allows 8 and you can avoid the outposts. if you wanted to speed it up then you could just take a runner (experienced runner of course) and get yourself an extra healer or mm... or w/e you want just thought that may be worth mentioning.--Gene195 22:26, 8 June 2007 (CDT)