User talk:NieA7/Build:N/any Dedicated Minion Master

/Archive1

Rate-a-Build
Favoured: Unfavoured:
 * I like. Only thing I would prefer is that the defensive version be first so people see it sooner, but that's just me. Will of the majority. Armond 10:18, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
 * I'd like to put defensive first too, but as world + dog decried the lack of Fiends and Rotting Flesh last time round I figured I'd stick aggressive in first. Alphabetical if nothing else. --NieA7 07:30, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
 * -Onlyashadow, Top 100 Guild 08:43, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Now that we have an iconic MM build, this is no longer needed. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 00:24, 20 August 2006 (CDT)
 * With 4 votes on the N/Mo Minion Master, there's no point in having another MM page that's similar. All of the skills that's been put forward in this build are on the variants section of N/Mo Minion Master.--Akmdw 11:02, 29 August 2006 (CDT)
 * See above. ---^--DeathByPepsi 03:38, 9 October 2006 (CDT)
 * No need to have another MM. --Vazze 08:45, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
 * This isn't a minion master, its a "Damage Necromancer, oh yeah, with some minion spells." Rotting Flesh takes too much energy, however tempting it may seem.  You're focusing too much on damage for it to achieve a minion master's purpose--To master minions.  Dark bond seems good at first sight...but isn't really helping that goal.  As for your second build, thats a bomber.  You don't have to use Animate Bone Minions to have a bomber.  Just stick in Taste of Death and Death Nova...like you did.  With someone focused like that, its a poor elite choice for flesh golem.  Stick Bitter Chill or Deathly Swarm in there.  This isn't defensive, as your minions are being killed by you to bomb.  You have a heal, but that is a sacrifice--Making it ineffective out of battle. As a minion master, this build isn't that great.  Rename it and name a different purpose, and you will get more favored votes. BlastedtSee my main character! Basher Of The You! 17:44, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Another identical MM build? Wtf? + Delete. See N/any Minion Master and N/Mo Minion Master. How many duplicate builds do we need? — Jyro X [[Image:Darkgrin.jpg|25px]] 18:23, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

Reasoning
Re-done build as two, one with fiends and rotting flesh, the other with horrors etc etc. Once again, full builds in general guides are a very bad idea - hopefully this can be approved fairly swiftly then linked to the General minion mastery guide. --NieA7 07:32, 13 August 2006 (CDT)

Unfavored?
We currently have an Unfavored tag here. That's kinda harsh, seeing as most people gave this an unfavored vote due to the fact that it's "yet another MM". This doesn't mean they don't like the build itself, just that there's too many of them. Will of the majority seems to dictate that this should be a merge. Would remove the tag and put a merge tag if I remembered which to merge to. --Armond Warblade (talk) 22:50, 22 October 2006 (CDT)
 * The fact that no reason for the unfavoured tag is given speaks volumes, to be honest I think the voting on this goes against all the guidelines set out in the Builds policy. There seems to be a pool of snobbery reserved specifically for Minion Master builds simply because they have about 3 skills in common (like virtually every heal/prot monk in existence). Part of the reason I posted this build was to show that being a MM doesn't mean you have to have a Monk secondary, which rules out N/Mo MM Support (which makes excellent use of a Monk secondary) and N/Mo Minion Master (I have no idea why this was approved, whilst it just about works it's a sub-par MM build at best in my opinion). The only approved MM left is N/any Vampiric Equilibrium, which again is a specific idea executed very well and thus not suitable for a merge. --NieA7 03:20, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm with you on all points. Officially, though, there isn't much we can do while staying within the rules. Any ideas?
 * Anyone who voted unfavored here, it'd be nice to know that you're still watching the page and it's not just the two of us here. --Armond Warblade (talk) 08:38, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Well Onlyashadow's vote means that this is technically no longer unfavoured, so I guess I'll remove the tag and dump it back in untested. As to the wider issue I imagine that if it's brought up all that'll come down is a chorus of "Too many MM builds", but I'll mention it at GuildWiki talk:Build vetting procedure.
 * While I agree with your dislike of the unfavored votes, technically this build is still unfavored. We never move builds back from favored/unfavored to untested, so the only way to move this is when 3 more people vote favored than unfavored. This is needed to prevent builds from bouncing from category to category with every single vote. --Xeeron 09:45, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
 * So if you get unfavoured you're unfavoured for life? That seems to be wrong to me in general - I can see why we wouldn't want to bounce from favoured to untested, but not from unfavoured to untested. Plus if that's the case why do we have a featured unfavoured build that may need re-evaluation? --NieA7 09:57, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Not for life. Only till enough people vote to make favored have 3 more votes than unfavored. If we moved builds whenever 1 additional vote was cast, we would be doing nothing but moving them. The unfavored featured build will go soon to make way for additional featured untested I feel. --Xeeron 10:16, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
 * For all intents and purposes getting 3 more favoured votes than unfavoured when a build is already in unfavoured (not to mention has 4 unfavoured votes) is impossible. Seeing as I'm the one who initially proposed we get rid of the featured unfavoured I've kind of made a rod for my own back with this one :p However, I think that none of the unfavoured votes are valid under the current voting criteria - I imagine anybody who plays as a MM more than semi-regularly can see there's a great difference between not only the two builds here but these and the N/Mo Minion Master as well. Nobody has come up with anything against this build in and of itself. There's not one negative comment (since I did a major overhaul and started the re-vote) anywhere. Not one. If it's not similar enough to be merged (which it isn't, the variants section on N/Mo Minion Master is already pretty bad) surely it's not similar enough to unfavoured due to similarity!? --NieA7 10:27, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Convince 3 of the unfavored votes that this build is not similar to other MM and you are there. --Xeeron 11:45, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Not a chance in hell that's gonna happen is there? Especially with another ho-hum MM build approved now (N/any Minion Master - I cannot for the life of me think why anybody would want to run Fiends and Horrors in the same build). I'm just very annoyed that three utterly spurious votes can sink this build while N/any Minion Master - to which the spurious negatives apply just as much - gets through. There is something wrong with our builds policy when a thing like this can happen, yet it comes down to one author to convince people to revoke inappropriate votes. --NieA7 16:12, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Bleh, I give up, another inexplicable vote - talk about damned if you do, damned if you don't, first I get criticised for leaving out Rotting Flesh et al (check out the first revision of the build page), then for having them in! The same thing's happening with N/Me Barbed Ineptitude, two unfavoured votes due to energy management when I've used that build to collect over 70 jedite and have never had any energy problems even once. I want the builds section sorted out, but I really wonder if it's worth while when rampantly contradictory, seemingly random and strangely bias votes get thrown around like confetti. --NieA7 18:12, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

Delete
Why'd you remove my delete notice? This is a duplicate build of N/any Minion Master with the exception of ONE skill, which isn't an elite. — Jyro X 10:12, 24 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Four of the five unfavoured votes before yours are invalid, and yours doesn't relate to any merits the build has in and of itself. There has been only one negative vote based on the build, which is less than the two positives.
 * N/any Minion Master is a duplicate of this - the initial version of this build (with a Fiends variant two weeks later) came first by two months - check the page histories.
 * Rapta voted unfavoured on this due to it being a MM, then favoured on N/any Minion Master - if nothing else I want this page (and the change history) left to highlight the grossly inconsistent voting that can go on around here
 * There are two distinct builds here representing two entirely separate play styles, based on the composition of the rest of the PvE team. N/any Minion Master is an isolated build that does the same thing everywhere. Having skills in common does not make builds identical nor is it grounds for deletion - check all the 55 builds/bonders etc.
 * This is the second most popular MM build on the wiki, with well over twice as many page views as N/any Minion Master
 * --NieA7 10:49, 24 October 2006 (CDT)
 * So you reserve the right to say who's votes are valid and who's aren't now? I don't think so. I don't remember you being voted an admin. And those votes ARE valid because this IS a duplicate build. It doesn't matter which build was created first, but the other one was vetted first, therefore making it the central build. This build WASN'T vetted and it is a duplicate, therefore it needs to be deleted for being a duplicate. There is only ONE skill different that barely changes play style at ALL. Don't walk around the wiki playing god. It's not a good strategy. — Jyro X [[Image:Darkgrin.jpg|25px]] 11:31, 24 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I reserve the right to say those votes are invalid from my point of view, I reserve the right to bring the matter up at GuildWiki talk:Build vetting procedure (which I had done before your intervention) and I reserve the right to do everything I can to ensure this build is not deleted until I receive a satisfactory answer there. From an admin. Not you. --NieA7 12:35, 24 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I addressed the issue there. — Jyro X [[Image:Darkgrin.jpg|25px]] 12:50, 24 October 2006 (CDT)