User talk:Dazra/buildarchive/Build:W/Mo Full Vigor Paladin/Archive1

Requesting replacement
I want this build to replace the current W/Mo Paladin page. The premade buid is outdated and ineffective and should be moved to W/Mo Premade Paladin and flagged as Archived build. ~ Nilles (chat) 09:25, 25 June 2006 (CDT)
 * We will always keep the premade builds. This wiki was created to document the game after all. That does not automatically mean the premades are good builds, but that is why they are in a separate category. --Xeeron 10:34, 25 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Can we please agree, that the current "Paladin" is totally not useful for any player looking for a "Paladin" build? Of course we are going to keep that article! But seriously, we shouldn't promote the Mending Paladin any longer. Here are two suggestions:
 * We move the current W/Mo Paladin to W/Mo Premade Paladin and leave notes on both pages, Paladin and the this one.
 * We don't move the current W/Mo Paladin but add notes on the pages (1,2,3) linking to this page and vice cersa. We also change Paladin (build) to redirect here. ~ Nilles (chat) 16:58, 25 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Err, I propose:
 * Rename to something more descriptive than "Patched" Paladin, such as Vigorous Paladin. Add link here to W/Mo premade paladin build page. Keep "paladin" pointing there.
 * &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 19:01, 25 June 2006 (CDT) )
 * What about "Full Vigor Paladin"? ~ Nilles (chat) 07:02, 26 June 2006 (CDT)

Discussion
I have tested and played this build even before the patch and it worked fine there. It works even better today. If there are any issues with the build or variants to add, let me know. ~ Nilles (chat) 09:25, 25 June 2006 (CDT)
 * I would add an IAS. Frenzy. True, in PvE, you would be tanking, but when you aren't being targeted, frenzy would increase output, adrenaline gain, as well as healing from vig/spirit. You might want to note that under variation at least. Speaking of which, I'm in love with Quivering Blades. Since you had a choice of Eviserate or Triple Chop depending on enemies, why not HB and QB depending on enemies as well? Galrath Slash with 4 adrenaline cost, I think it's great. Silk Weaker 07:23, 23 July 2006 (CDT)

Errhm, with what Skil can Sprint/Rush be replaced? I don't lke those skills...its only good for runing...
 * What sort of warrior are you? an immobile wall? All warriors should have a speed buff.. To clarify, you are touch range, stuff isn't always at touch range, you need to get to them, figure &mdash; Skuld  10:38, 23 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Well, it is a PvE build, so maybe speed boosts aren't as nessesary as it seems. I use sprint to cancel frenzy more than anything. Silk Weaker 01:37, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
 * The speed boost is there for a reason. You usually get more aggro if you are in range before your team mates are, you don't take as long to change to a different target once yours is dead, you safe your party time in a good bunch of missions and bonuses where bringing items from A to B is required. Of course you need to adopt the build for various special situations, but in most PvE areas, especially in Tyria, Sprint is a good skill to have. ~ Nilles (chat) 06:09, 25 July 2006 (CDT)

Paladin using axe? ;p &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Taki &bull; contribs) 10:05, 3 August 2006 CET.
 * Yes, why not? Cyclone Axe isn't as effective, but since Victo's is my preferred PvE utility, the axe variant is perfectly valid imho. ~ Nilles (chat) 11:19, 3 August 2006 (CDT)

PvP ability
I've been running this build - the sword variant, anyway - for the last few days throughout the factions PvE campaign, got upto the part where I had to befriend the kurzicks (for like the 5th time ;]) and decided to test out alliance battles. The build is very effective, with the only modification being swapping Res Chant for Berserker Stance. 33% increased swings + vigorous = lots of heals ;] - Could other people test this? Perhaps it is a multi-category build ;) ~ Shadou 19:31, 13 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I've been using a similar build since I started playing. Replace Sever_Artery and Gash for Sun_and_Moon_Slash and Standing Slash. I replaced Silverwing Slash for Tiger Stance. That way you get more fast attacks and you get better healing with Vigorous Spirit. I always use Hundred Blades first on a good enemy group to build my adrenaline in one hit. This build totally owns in AB's 'cause you can solo most of the caps. It's fairly good in a PvE team also.

Changes
I understand that the variation already mentioned Triple Chop, but I feel that, for a PvE build, Triple Chop is a far better choice than Eviserate, since mobs die quickly anyway, focused damage is not always the best idea. Triple Chop and Cyclone axe combines to form a very nice PBAoE, and in fact works very will with the "Full Vigor" part of the build. Below is a build I've used lately, all the way from Ice Troll Caves to THK, and all of the Canthan missions. It seems pretty solid (though I did do some tweaks for differnet missions).

Also note that Executioner's Strike is more

Axe Warrior for less populated areas
I have chosen Flurry because, with zealous mod( which is nessesary) it gives you a decent energy, health, and adrenaline gain quickly. Also, with so many attack skills, impact from flurry's damage reduction is reduced. Since AP from penetrating chop affects base damage, it is unideal, and that makes executioner's chop a better choice. It is also less prone to over charging, from experience. Flurry is very helpful for quickly unloading your adrenaline before doing another Cyclone or Triple chop. Without it, you would either waste the recharge time by slowly using the three attacks, or waste adrenaline by using the triple chop/cyclone first. Flurry really helps in these situation. Live vicariously, compared to Live Vigorously, isn't that good, but I find that it really helps your monk with pressure, though I do drop it when that's not an issue. Gift of Health is useful when you need to save NPCs while henching, or just for healing. It's a very cost efficient heal afterall.

So anyway, some response would be great. I'm thinking that with some more tweaks, this could replace the current skill bar as standard, depending on interest. Any comments? Silk Weaker 12:57, 20 August 2006 (CDT)
 * One of the points of this build is not to use a zealous blade to increase damage and be able to maintain healing at the same time. You are missing Sprint in exchange for Live Vivariously - fair point, add it to the variants if you feel so.
 * But Eviscerate is probably the most powerful attack in PvE - because of the deep wound. The vast majority of warriors I've met (and from whom I learned) agreed that Deep Wound is mandatory. That might be insignificant if you fight clothies or other weak critters like the Afflicted, ok. But this is a fact: once you're hitting Echovald Forest or any other area with high-armored mobs and healers, the deep wounds is your main tool to survival.


 * Basically, I'd agree with you saying that point damage is minor. But that means you should plan to use three or even four of your skills on one target - because that won't live long enough and the later skills would be wasted. This situation is different. Since our point-damage skill is an opener, we can't possibly waste that slot in the skill bar. ~ Nilles (chat) 13:05, 23 August 2006 (CDT)

Not to be annoying but this build owns the pally build and secondly i got 2 words for ya. balthazars spirit. nuff said since you usually will get far more energy then if you didn't have it and it can used as a cover enchantment if you want to.


 * To the above, agreed. Pally Build is.. hahaha, let's just stop laughing now.


 * Nilles, Do you think....


 * Would be okay? Although you're splitting Eviserate into two skills, it is easier to charge them up using TripleChop and Cyclone Axe, and you do gain alot more health with those skills. Vampiric is good, but zealous allows you to use flurry and Cyclone/Triple more often, and so you actually gain much more health that way, though less damage. I prefer this, personally, but I'm thinking maybe at least bring this in as a third skillbar? I'm having fun with this (without deepwound) in tyria anyway. From my own experience, the foes die quickly enough that AoE seems more worth it, and there are usually other chars dealind deepwound anyway. Silk Weaker 03:32, 27 August 2006 (CDT)
 * could someone clue me into what "pally build" means? --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 03:41, 27 August 2006 (CDT)
 * I assume he meant the premade Paladin build the popularized Healing Hands and Mending, and indirectly, Riposte, Deadly Riposte, Dolyak Signet. The last bit is my opinion anyway. Silk Weaker 03:55, 27 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Silk Weaker, why in the name of Lyssa do you want to increase the self healing in such a scale? Your setup may be acceptable for a complete newb in a pug that is desperate on health, or a solo farmer, if you want. If the need for changes are that urgent, then initiate a poll and let the community decide. In my opinion you're only wasting energy. ~ Nilles (chat) 15:20, 28 August 2006 (CDT)
 * actually I agree with silk weaker, the build has so much potential healing, why not add live vic to have the monks not need to heal you at all? in PvE warriors arent meant for major damage anyways. However, in places where that much healing is needed they usually strip enchants *shrug*  Perhaps this could be some variant for the underworld or something (Freakin Aatxes...) (Not a fifty five 01:56, 4 September 2006 (CDT))
 * Essentially, I'm losing Sprint, Axe Twist and a Deepwound/Penetrating Blow (depending on whether I put in dismember) in terms of output, but I gain this back in the form of Flurry (for adrenaline), Triple Chop (damage and adrenaline). Although I have less attack skills, I charge adrenaline up more often. Energy is not an issue as Cyclone + Triple Chop are almost free due to Zealous mods. I don't use Cyclone unless I have surplus or >3 foes near me. Liv Vic can be changed for another attack or rush, doesn't really matter, but with PuGs, some form of self healing is good. Liv Vic can heal alot of health in the long run and help your monk's pressure (good monks are rare...), and 1 pip of energy is very little considering that, with IAS, you gain 10 in 8 seconds, more if you're in a mob. I used this against the plants in Arbor Stone.. it was crazy. Again, this could be a variant in populated zone. STILL, I find little trouble in less popualted ones, just nothing special-- you hack and kill eventually with healing.
 * Also, why not have 12 healing? We know strength's impact on damage is very little. + damage from attacks is armor ignore anyway, and that +damage is mainly where the damage comes from seeings as you spam cyclone, triple chop, and executioner's strike and stegnth only activates when you use skills. Strength is a bad attribute, in the eternal words of whats-his-name. I don't have the calculations exactly, but the damage differnece would be waaaay below 5 per hit, and when you're talking about a gain of 20 health or so per AoE in messy situations, it's not really that important.--Silk Weaker 08:18, 4 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Well, I use Strength to make sure I'm getting the full benefit of the shield's armor bonus. Less damage taken means heals are more effective...I suppose someone more math oriented than me could figure it out and see which is more beneficial in the long run, an extra 16 armor from a decent shield, or the increased healing from Live/Vig?DKS01 01:34, 17 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Ah, I see. Good point. I use a healing offhand with 5/45 while enchanted, so.. hmm. Silk Weaker 01:50, 17 September 2006 (CDT)
 * At the moment I use the Exalted Aegis, though I suppose a -2/45 shield would be even better but I gotta take the effort to obtain one, and at the moment, I'm not up to it. Yeah, I know, laziness ftwDKS01 03:50, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

Regarding the nerf of Eviscerate
I would like to switch Eviscerate and Axe Twist for Triple Chop and Dismember. It's not only the damage decrease of Eviscerate, but also the new Adrenaline requirements of Dismember which appeal to me. However, I don't want to change neither the healing skills nor any attributes. This is not going to be a cookie-cutter build. ~ Nilles (chat) 06:19, 16 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Well, that's what I thought. Attribute changes aren't that important, nor is Live Vic, which I only use because I don't trust monks. I decreased 1 Strength for more Healing Prayer becuase I just don't see strength as an important attribute, frankly. For the sake of using a shield (I find that low req shields are useful for this), I suppose it's okay to leave the strength up. Honestly, strength here only gives 1% penetration, which is nothing. In fact, strength is a shitty primary attribute, as testing has shown teh armor penetration to be.. pretty insignificant, as they only apply to base damage when you use an attack skill. It's also negated while using attacks with base penetration like Penetrating Chop or Shot.


 * I also added a note on Zealous mods since it's almost nessesary for a Triple/Cyclone spam, and would like to discuss the use of Flurry in this, as Sprint doesn't seem that nessesary to me in PvE. Silk Weaker 06:33, 19 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I really, really hate to find vampiric and zealous mods on the page. I wanted to show that even with little monetary efford, there can be powerful paladins. I admit I failed. Ah, and if you don't trust your monks, take Healing Hands as elite. If a monk can't take care of a tank, he very likely can't even take care of himself. You can't do that with Live Vic. ~ Nilles (chat) 14:43, 20 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Whats that got to do with anything? Zealous ensures you can use cyclone axe and triple chop whenever it comes up (you can't even spam cyclone without zealous). Vampiric gives more healing then it denies when hundred blades is used. (Not a fifty five 16:25, 20 September 2006 (CDT))


 * Zealous, at least costs a fair bit. I think the idea was to have a build that could use any equipment &mdash; Skuld 16:36, 20 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Triple Chop can be self sustained without zealous, since it has higher recharge but executioner's strike damage. Cyclone is fast recharging, however... Zealous isn't that cheap, especially for people who just dabbles in warriors, I agree, but anyone who got through to Hell's Prec. to capture Evic probably has the capital, don't you think? Live Vic helps with the healing. 1 pip is worth the healing you get, which can be up to 60 a cyclone quite easily. Speaking of which, this build with Bonnetti's works very well for mowing through low level areas for friends/guildies or even a bit of farming. Without Glad's Defense. 210.3.39.32 21:10, 20 September 2006 (CDT)

Hammer?
Anny successful paladin hammer variations?--Phoenix 14:38, 26 November 2006 (CST)


 * Self defeating, since hammer means triggering Vigorous Spirit less. --Silk Weaker 14:44, 26 November 2006 (CST)

Nightfall skill set
Now that Guild Wars Nightfall has come out, I suggest you replace Sever Artery with Barbarous Slice. It does additional damage as well as imposing Bleeding on the target foe. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by anon (contribs) sometime.
 * I think that would be a nice idea - but we would have to take Rush out of there since it would disable bleeding. ~ Nilles (msg) 18:01, 11 December 2006 (CST)
 * but only if you have it active when using Barbarous Slice, isnt it? -Y0 ich halt 09:05, 12 December 2006 (CST)

Barb sucks now :( &mdash; Skuld 09:31, 12 December 2006 (CST)
 * Well we could exchange Sever Artery with Barb and Rush with "To the limit!" and put our Strength points into tactics. ~ Nilles (msg) 14:23, 12 December 2006 (CST)
 * I'd keep Sever. Much less annoying to use if you have a stance on your bar. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 15:15, 12 December 2006 (CST)