Talk:Seed of Life

 --Fatigue` ( talk / contribs ) 11:07, 17 June 2007 (CDT)


 * haha :P &mdash;Shady Guy [[Image:Sigm@Oo.gif|19px]] 06:31, 19 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Well we can remove this now...

thoughts?
just wondering everyones thoughts. --Fatigue` ( talk / contribs ) 20:19, 15 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Underpowered compared to the others IMO. Turk Nagona 20:33, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * It's better than Healing Seed, which is saying quite a bit. --Kale Ironfist 20:34, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Its absurd if you chuch it on a tank as he charges forward and all of a sudden your entire party is getting healed for 500 hp a second.  Now does blessed aura work with this? Kelvin Greyheart 20:47, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * It's a monk spell... so it should. --Kale Ironfist 20:51, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Hell no, it's not underpowered. This is a dream come true. Although they foresaw all the Wammos and made it linked to DF. But still it's great.
 * What do you mean they foresaw all the Wammos? It can only be use on target OTHER ally.
 * I still hold it's underpowered compared to the dervish one, of course all of them are way better then most elites. Turk Nagona 21:42, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * What about casting it on a bonder? It'd trigger like crazy. (86.149.96.101 22:50, 15 June 2007 (CDT))
 * Oh. My. God. I'm trying that now.--Dice 00:01, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I added the Spearmarshall Rank duration (R9) Njo freak 00:28, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Make sure you report back on the result, Dice. I cba to try it myself. (86.149.96.101 00:53, 16 June 2007 (CDT))
 * I actually vanquished a few zones using this last night... Another monk and me. I ran a Life Barrier bonder on the entire team, and we made talhkora do a SoR/Life Bond monk... long story short, we did Seed chains on talhkora, and no one ever died in the 5 zones we vanquished... (except against Seacrash! XD) Ruricu 12:38, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * You suck at hard mode. I run 2 monks (1 lod 1 sor), 2 wars, 2 necros, a paragon, and a mesmer. Haven't had any troubles, we vanq fast as hell. Running a bonder in hard mode is a sign of stupidity.--65.95.57.158 13:40, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Wow, be more of a dick. Think you might want to suggest that bonders aren't the best in HM instead of being an ass?  Why are people so rude? Turk Nagona 18:16, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * To those who say it's underpowered: I'd rather have this than a smiting-prayers-like holy damage spell.Zaboomafoo 23:42, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Ignoring the rude remark... We all have our methods. I'm just lazy. Spamming blessed signet and winning is fine with me. (on a side note, isn't it funny how the rudest people are the ones without accounts?) Ruricu 01:52, 17 June 2007 (CDT)

Starting the pyramid over, I will agree with you on that note Zaboomafoo, and I'm glad that it's tied to DF, not healing or prot. Turk Nagona 14:51, 17 June 2007 (CDT)

I took out the rank 0 in the temp progression bar (must have at least rank 1 in sunspear to acquire this skill). Chocobo 01:17, 16 June 2007 (CDT)

If this triggers off of Lbond dmg (the other monk casts it on the bonder) then those farming groups that use bonders just got happy. - 72.152.58.154 03:37, 16 June 2007 (CDT) I used this in The Deep on a tank, he held all aggro and practically the entire screen was blue with +26's, it was marvelous. This is definately my favorite skill in the game. At 3 (or 4 with healer's boon) hits per 2 seconds, this outheals heal party spam. <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 thank you so very much Anet.--Idiot 03:53, 16 June 2007 (CDT)

just a point... if you use this on the tank...shouldnt he be tanking everything... so why do you need to heal every1 else?
 * The occasional single monster breaking aggro that can shred your backline in DoA when playing with a PuG. Lord of all tyria 04:53, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Because it would also heal the tank?

Tank in DoA+This=WIN! System Of A Guild 05:50, 16 June 2007 (CDT)

Changed "on the bonder" to "on a Life Bond bonder" if you have a Life Barrier bonder, it does nothing. Nilator 16:59, 16 June 2007 (CDT)

This is basically easy-mode for PvE... Chain this on a bonder and you win a long as you can take care of any spike damage. --67.76.90.215 10:38, 17 June 2007 (CDT)

Spirit bond is back
If you max out divine favor and use a 20% enchant and blessed aura you could get the duration long enough that you can use glyph of renewal to keep it on one target permanently. Long story short, This will let 2 people have infinite aggro potential again, and with all that healing you can have a high hp value while your at it so life steal isn't a big concern. Hard mode shiroken farming anyone? Kelvin Greyheart 11:13, 16 June 2007 (CDT)


 * What is your offence? Sliver armor I presume? Solus  [[Image:DiscipleSymbol2.jpg|19px]] 21:20, 16 June 2007 (CDT)


 * I was thinking along the lines of the generic SV AV stuff since they have famine, but they run from that in hard mode. Guess I'll experiment with that.  One of the perks is that the person whos doing the damage doesn't need ANY defense whatsoever so you could use something like the 6 second ele build.


 * Another idea. Two people use this and life bond alternating who's maintaining it.... might suffer from decreased damage output since it is two monks, but you don't need an elite to maintain it on one person.  Now... with an elite, a few points in prot for Protective Spirit, a lot in divine favor and a bunch free to put anywheres you want, damage should not be a huge concern.  I think this skill is going to get nerfed in a way similar to spirit bond once anet realizes that they just made a version of it that is less conditional (though it is other ally and heals for less, and harder to maintain) Kelvin Greyheart 21:28, 18 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Ok heres my idea for two man farming just about...well.. anywheres. You have a monk with 15-16 divine favor and prot.  Monk uses seed of life + blessed aura + glpyph of renewal and protective spirit with energy tools like balthazzars spirit and essence bond.  Also consider bringing shield of absortion if you will have downtime with seed.  The trick is that the monk isn't the tank in this build.  An SS necro is.  The monk uses seed of life on the SS and maintains prot spirit.  SS uses mantra of resolve and the standard SV AV stuff and an interupt or two.  Aggros a load of stuff and when he feels like hes got enough (there is not limit after all) he lines them up, puts SS on a couple and laughs at his 1000+ damage a second.  Wont work in hard mode because of the fleeing from SS, but in normal mode you could theoretically aggro all the bladed attxe in the first room in UW, interupt and kill the dying nightmares, start the chamber quest, and then get all 12 grasps on you on top of the 15 blades or so.  Then let loose all hell with SS and pick up your loot.  Onto smites, aggro a couple dozen and get a few coldifres while your at it, line them up, rinse and repeat.


 * The only real limit to how much you can aggro is that at a certain point you wont be able to SEE with all the blue + hps flying around. Other than that and the monk maintaining prot spirit there should not be any problems.

.
 * Thoughts anyone? Kelvin Greyheart 09:38, 25 June 2007 (CDT)

Glyph of renewal takes 15 seconds to recharge and 1 second to cast Seed of Life takes 1 second to cast. That's a 17 second cycle. I don't think you can do that with a 20% enchant mod and blessed aura.


 * Except glyph of renewal is already recharging when you start casting seed of life. 15 seconds recharge + 1 second cast on glyph of renewal (and glyph of renewal starts recharging), 3/4 seconds aftercast from glyph and 1 second cast from seed of life means that seed of life lands on the 'tank' after 2 and 3/4 seconds, and glyph of renewal has already recharged 2 and 3/4 seconds.  If you can get seed of life to last 16 seconds, then 16 seconds after you started casting the first glyph you start casting the second, so the second seed of life lands on the tank after 18 and 3/4 seconds have passed, i.e. in principle no downtime barring actually getting the skill to activate on recharge.  To get the skill to last 16 seconds requires 60% longer enchantments when base duration is 10 seconds, 1.2*1.33 ~ 1.6 (actually slightly less) so divine favour at 14+ for blessed aura.

A little off topic but
If nothing else, the skill icon is really, really cool. Silver40596 11:29, 16 June 2007 (CDT)

I agree. This skill has a pretty cool icon, and it's actually a good skill.

weakness
just noticed while capping skills and testing this skill that the divine favor is checked everytime the person under the enchant takes damage. if the monk suffers from weakness the heal can be temporarily reduced, but if weakness is removed the normal divine favor is used even if the enchantment has already been cast. added this to notes. a bit wordy so feel free to edit. --Fatigue` ( talk / contribs ) 21:08, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * That's quite odd, however, the other skills probably follow similar "rules". For example, if an Elementalist casts Meteor shower, and _then_ casts intensity, the meteor shower will have the damage boost from intensity. Ruricu 08:17, 17 June 2007 (CDT)

This is an amazing skill.. no really!
I was going thru thannakai temple (explorable), with heroes & henchies yesterday to test my new skills. I was a monk with Healing Burst, SoL and some other random heals. When we got to the part with temple guardians, I threw this on Koss and let him wander into the AoE. My whole party received tremendous amounts of healing, I didn't even have to use a single spell with the exception of an occasional HB and dwayna's kisses and between the recharges. My DF was 13 = 26 points of healing several times each second. Casting this on a teammate under fire can be a lifesaver. Possibly my favorite of the new skills. Seb2net 05:23, 17 June 2007 (CDT)


 * /agree. at first i didnt like it compared to the necro, sin, and derv skills.  but after actually using this skill i easily changed my mind.  it quite simply is amazing.  --Fatigue` ( talk / contribs ) 11:05, 17 June 2007 (CDT)

Healer's Boon and Seed of Life ?
When I maintain Healer's Boon on myself and then cast Seed of Life on somebody else will the healing be increased? Healer's Boon says it benefits Healing Prayer spells only and Seed of Life has "Sunspear rank" as attribute. T.T.H. 09:59, 18 June 2007 (CDT)

No. Healing prayers line only. Also healer's boon generally only affects direct healing spells. Spells like Healing Breeze (Heal over time) and Vigorous Spirit (Heal on action) arent affected. Its still an amazing(ly overpowered) skill even when faced with increased healing power from boon.

Try Aura of Faith though, single-target only but that single target will get more of a boost out of it.24.186.207.198 16:46, 2 August 2007 (CDT)

Godly for 5 man FoW
My guildies and I are running this on a healing monk using Glyph of Renewal as the elite. Using a 20% encahant mod, downtime is minimal and with the melee taking all the agro, all you have to do is Glyph of Renewal the Seed of Life, cast it on the bonder and wait for Glyph to recharge and repeat. --Rururrur 09:33, 20 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Add blessed aura and you should be able to keep it up forever. Kelvin Greyheart 11:44, 20 June 2007 (CDT)

Stacks with multiple casts?
I realize spell duplicates don't normally stack, but the monks on my 5-man FoW were experimenting saying it was... anyone care to investigate/verify?--Mafaraxas 13:35, 20 June 2007 (CDT)
 * It does in fact stack. We were in Urgoz' Warren last sunday and accidently all three monks casted their Seed of Life on the same person. As all of them had different ranks in Divine Favor you could clearly see that all three copies were triggering simultanously. --Parabellum 03:45, 21 June 2007 (CDT)


 * For The Deep, bring a Paragon with Angelic Bond, put Bond on the tanks, and put seed of life on the Paragon. Swift Thief 16:39, 12 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Are you sure about the enchantment stacking? That sounds like a bug to me. - [[Image:Candle.jpg|12px]] Krowman (talk • contribs) 15:10, 29 August 2007 (CDT)

for those of you who are unimpressed, and even for those who love the skill
ive been going around taking screenshots as often as i can, and this was the best i was able to capture (there definately were better, but too slow to get most of the good ones. nonetheless, i made this in a few minutes from a screenshot.

Seed of Life if anyone has better screenshots feel free to post them 5 hits in one second can be beat of course, just a matter of taking the screenshot. --Fatigue` ( talk / contribs ) 17:21, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
 * And how much of that healing was useful to the party members NOT being attacked?-- Thelordofblah 22:51, 25 June 2007 (CDT)


 * please just use the skill in any high level area --Fatigue` ( talk / contribs ) 09:00, 26 June 2007 (CDT)

Heal progression table
Do we really need a progression table to display multiples of two? BigAstro 13:14, 24 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Honestly, nobody would ever need it. Removed.--Torak321 05:28, 25 June 2007 (CDT)

Party wide affect seems useless
The more enemies attacking a target enchanted with this, the more party-wide healing you get; however, the more foes attacking one target, the less damage everyone else will be taking, and less healing your party will need as a whole anyways. The only way this is useful is if one uses it on a bonder.-- Thelordofblah 15:12, 25 June 2007 (CDT)

Stay enemies, AoE damage, ect. Readem (talk *contribs ) 15:28, 25 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I guess against AOE, but if your party is standing in AOE to begin with, something is wrong Thelordofblah 21:23, 25 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Think he has a point, ~6 per divine favor on the target only would be a lot better. 67.162.10.70 21:26, 25 June 2007 (CDT)


 * You have a point and it may just become a niche skill used only in conjunction with a bonder, but it's extremely powerful for that purpose alone. Near invincibility half the time? I'll take it. BigAstro 22:01, 25 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Exactly, which is why I wish they'd make it able to target self =P-- Thelordofblah 22:49, 25 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I think Anet made it target other because it's too powerful for farming purposes as target self. Cascade with Healing Seed and you have an entirely new breed of invincimonks that can tank unlimited foes indefinitely. (I always forget that Healing Seed is also target other.) BigAstro 01:32, 26 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeh, I have problems using this in general PvE. High-end PvE uses it wonderfully, but 90% or more puts it to waste. As soon as I throw it on the guy taking damage, all the enemies seem to... attack something else. Make recharge/effect time shorter imo (and 5 energy, naturally) so you can switch targets faster, but as it is, it's mostly a waste of time and energy. - Auron 03:21, 26 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Thing is though, I cant see how this would be too bad as target self, this can not be maintained constantly unless with Glyph of Renewal(which STILL isnt constant), and even then you're wasting your elite and have limited choice for damage. This is essentially useless on a secondary profession as 0 divine favor = 0 healing so... unless im REALLY missing something, i see no harm in it.-- Thelordofblah 04:57, 26 June 2007 (CDT)
 * It's a better version of Healing Seed. That's why it's still target other ally. --Kale Ironfist 08:14, 26 June 2007 (CDT)

How can this skill be improved?... it heals the person with the enchantment and the party in elite areas where there is a tank holding off the main groups and a few rouge monsters bothering the casters this skill can keep not only the tank alive but also the party as well.Judgedread33 04:17, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
 * omg, Rouge monsters?! Ack! Run for the hills! They're going to highlight your cheekbones! --[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  07:54, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
 * A terrifying thought, worse than mallyx for sure. Lord of all tyria 07:57, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
 * "Oh noes, we're getting mascara'd by rouge monsters!" -- Snog  rat [[Image:User Snograt signature.png]] 08:21, 29 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Rofl. Lord of all tyria 08:25, 29 June 2007 (CDT)

Echo and stacking
Since 2 monks can cast it on the same target and it stacks, anyone know if a single monk echos it an casts both on a single target will it stack with itself? MishimaYukio 13:39, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
 * tested, an echoed copy on the same team member has no additional bonus, but an echo copy on another team member will still work. --Fatigue` ( talk / contribs ) 10:58, 30 June 2007 (CDT)

two words
Spectral Agony :D slap it on an ally under this and heal your party every second. &mdash; ~ Soqed Hozi ~  04:05, 11 July 2007 (CDT)


 * Spectral agony doesen't deal damage, its life loss, and it will not trigger seed of life. user:Herbert Powell
 * read the notes at theend of specral agonys page. It is treated like damage. I can back this up too, as this skill was fantastic when doing abbadons. &mdash; ~ Soqed Hozi ~  11:45, 18 July 2007 (CDT)

Sunspear Skill?
This isn't a sunspear skill, it's a divine favor skill that gets better with a high sunspear rank (max twice as good). I think it's ridiculous to make a title skill work only when you are of a certain primary profession, the assassin and paragon ones at least work when not having that primary profession (though they're probably completely worthless for x/A or x/P characters).
 * You lie. –Ichigo724[[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 12:52, 18 July 2007 (CDT)
 * These restrictions were put on for a very good reason. -- Xeon 12:54, 18 July 2007 (CDT)
 * exactly, without the divine favour restriction this would be on my mm like a shot, and properly many other builds of mine too. &mdash; ~ Soqed Hozi ~  01:57, 19 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Without the Divine Favor restriction, this would be carried by Wammos, and we don't want that to happen. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:17, 19 July 2007 (CDT)
 * If it wasn't divine favor based, we wouldn't have to worry about just whammos either. EVERYONE that doesn't have a use for their secondary profession, or has monk secondary, would use it --Gimmethegepgun 03:39, 19 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Well that in itself would not be so bad, since having this on every party member at the same time would let you stand in all sorts of AoE without harm...could lead to cool new farming teams or whatever. Vampirism and Necrosis are already used like that: anyone who doesn't have a use for their secondary profession takes it. What I was saying, though, is that we wouldn't want to further encourage nub Whammos with false W/Mo skill synergy...I mean they already thing Healing Breeze and Orison of Healing are good to use, and this is a no-brainer good skill but only when used properly. It would be like a Wammo carrying Healing Seed y'know, they already use Healing Hands...bleargh. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 04:09, 19 July 2007 (CDT)


 * I actually would not mind seeing a wammo with this if it didnt have the df restrction. Mainly cus it is as good as anything else and will heal the team out..them being a tank means lots of ehalign when it is best as the tank knows when they are being hit the most. As long as they use it sensibly it could be useful.


 * And I've always thpught it funny how wammos all tend to gravitate towards the same skills when new....orison, breese, hh and mending....its odd but its exactly how it happens. &mdash; ~ Soqed Hozi ~  17:07, 12 August 2007 (CDT)

Minions
If cast on a minion taking damage, it heals the minions, but not party members.....interesting side note of no real importance or prcatical use. Serpent615 1:39, 23 August 2007


 * O Rly? I've experienced that when cast on a minion it still heals party members. Perhaps there was a change... [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 00:51, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
 * just retested...nothing on peopleSerpent615 1:53, 23 August 2007
 * Must be a bug or unintended effect...asuming you can get this on something durable like Flesh Golem, you can potentially heal the entire party's minions for like 1000 health...crazy. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 00:54, 23 August 2007 (CDT)

Noooooooooo...
Danget aNet!!!!! Must u ruin every good skill?!?! I mean, it was PvE only, and they still nerfed it....=*( Serpent615 22:57, 30 August 2007
 * Yep, another skill for the trash pile. BigAstro 22:07, 30 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Its complete garbage now. GG Anet.
 * Meh. More than one way to stay alive.  This combined with other skills (Angelic bond or Life Bond) had made monking the simple act of 'press 1 to keep party at full health for 15+ seconds (enchant weapon+blessed aura...)'.  My only gripe is I don't like the debuffed duration, a simple 60 second recharge would have kept me happy and left the skill semi-useful... (until someone considered glyph of renewal, requiring further debuffing...).  Ah well. Yamagawa 22:34, 30 August 2007 (CDT)
 * 5/25 is absolutely awful. Very few skills have 20% uptime, and those that do are usually ignored. Just look at what happened to "Incoming!" after it was nerfed into pointlessness. BigAstro 23:02, 30 August 2007 (CDT)
 * No! My incoming what happened to thee! --Lann 23:24, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

my thoughts: i use monks alot and seed of life was nice at duration 10 sec, 20 regen time.. now it is 5 sec duration with 25 sec regen.. there is no way i will wait 25 sec for a 5 sec duration spell, seed of life is now useless in my arsenal- very disappointed(empress audessa)
 * whatever gimmethegepgun --Lann 23:26, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

Yeah, just what you guys said. Finally a non-standard healing skill that would be useful for a healer, and they nerf it. I can't stand how Anet tries to standardise healers with every skill update. —[ Adul ] 01:41, 31 August 2007 (CDT)

I guess the AI was complaining it was overpowered. At least unlink it from Divine Favor. They could have made it 1/60 with a casting time of 6 seconds and it would have been just as useless as it is now. Just remove the skill from the game, to save yourselves the embarrassment, Areanet.--4.243.45.35 01:48, 31 August 2007 (CDT)

To be honest this doesn't make much of a difference. If you have a tank that's taking constant pressure, the only time you'll ever need a full party heal (as such this skill provides) is when your backline is under pressure and/or about to die. 5 seconds of this is enough to bring everyone back to full and after that the skill just kind of sits there, not doing much. Healing Seed is still much better, IMO. Always was much better, because it can be HCT/HSR'd (focus/wand and Healer's Boon). ~ Lutz 02:05, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Seed of Life can be also be HSRd by any staff, and it has a perma-psuedo-HCT via its 1s cast over Healing Seed's 2s cast. In most cases, yes, 5s duration is sufficient---but the 10s is really nice to cover nasty HM mob overruns.  It was indeed overpowered, but it didn't need a 60% cut into its duration/recycle.  I'd have gone with a 10/2/25 with 10s duration or 10/1/25 with 8s duration.  ANet changes skills a bit too much sometimes.  A 10-20% change to a skill (a la SF 117->105 or whatever that was) is a good test.  A 50%+ change to a skill is overzealous except to encourage use of a long-abandoned skill (maybe Aura of Faith?  P&H?). --Carmine 03:05, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
 * While i agree it might have been a bit to much of a nerf, it desperately needed to be toned down. Made playing SB in DoA hard mode being extremely boring. But as with intensity, they made the mistake to drastically alter both duration and recast. It killed intensity, not sure yet about seed though. 134.130.183.235 04:22, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
 * It WAS overpowered and imo badly abbused by those Seed/Bonders, where keeping a party alive was just peanuts. You could even use glyph, seed and start smiting away! with 15s and glyph it was up for about 95% of the time, now it is nerfed to only 20% of the time (30% with enchantment boosts) and imo that is just not enough concidering the "PvE-only Status", now this could as well be in PvP as well imo. However. As this skill can be boosted to say 8 seconds and the recharge down to 16 seconds with glyph this is 50% up and with Quickening Zephyr the recharge could be brought down to about 8-9 seconds which will again be up for say 95% of the time!!! Although it will cost alot more energy and another skill it is still possible with a QZ-Bonder/Glyph Seeder or whatever u like to call them. I think the best way to stop the abuse of this skill is make it trigger only on physical/elemental damage like essence bond or make it a "skill" instead of an enchantment spell (so glyph and all increase duration skillz do not work) Shai Meliamne 04:56, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
 * This was like the only reason to take a human healing monk... now obsolete in most areas because of heros with a better response time. 5/25 was too darned much with a energy cost of 10! They should have cut the energy cost in half if they were doing to cut the duration in half. PATHETIC... how obvious did they have to be to make us buy GW:EN for the new skills. Ok guys have luck vanquishing the old Ascalon areas without this skill, I know it kept my 4 man group alive... guess you guys are going to have to go from Yaks for sure and some may even take the trek from TOA. As a side note whenever those Devs put that nerfbat down I'ma use it on them and see how they like it! XD70.56.195.48 15:13, 31 August 2007 (CDT)

Just a summer months mirage
The skill did not really exist: a bit more than 2 months and that during summer... The problem is: it´s now (if you leave the usage on the bonder aside) a Paragon skill, as you have to trigger it, when your ally is in a fight - so there goes the monk Sunspear skill without replacement and even worse it was a replacement of Aegis which has been turned into a Paragon skill also recently. So there is nothing left that a protector can use to give his party some relief while storming into a group...

Add yet another skill the LAME pile.Crimsonhandhiro 16:30, 31 August 2007 (CDT)