GuildWiki talk:Builds wipe

Links
Just to make sure everyone knows what/where everything currently is: More info: -- Peej 20:29, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Builds wipe (this page) - policy describing deleting all builds so that a better replacement build system can be started
 * Post No Builds - aka PNB - policy which only serves to protect the Build namespace in the interim between the build wipe and the replacement system being put into place
 * For clarity, I've included what will be the new policy into the builds wipe article. PNB is no longer referenced in any form. &mdash;Tanaric 19:48, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * No Original Builds - aka NOB - policy describing a solution to the PvP build section which involves only posting popular and successful builds found by watching observer mode
 * Profession archetype guides - recently written policy describing a solution to the PvE build section which involves documenting the basic uses of each profession in a guide format, with links to true PvE builds in user space
 * Builds wipe does NOT mean that all build posting will be permanently removed from the wiki, just that the current system of build posting will be removed in order to put something better in its place
 * Post No Builds doesn't mean you can't post builds on the wiki, just that you can't post them in the Build namespace
 * Both NOB and Profession Guides suggest original builds and build variants can be placed in user space, where they will be categorized and (hopefully) easy to find using template tags, so creation of personal builds will still be allowed

Opinion Poll
The question is: "Are you in favor of Guild Wars:Builds Wipe?"

Voting "Yes" means you are in favor of GW:Builds wipe. Please vote only if you have an opinion, do not add a "Neutral" section. Please also add a comment if you have something constructive to say.

Note: This poll is about the wipe itself, not about the policies that might or might not be implemented after the wipe. Please bear that in mind when voting.

Favor:
 * 1) I'm in great favor of removing the build section.  Though I have many reasons for agreeing with this choice, the most important reason is acuracy.  With as often as Anet is altering, nerfing, and boosting skills, 90% of builds that go up have allready been rendered useless.  If we're to keep up with the build section the people who keep guildwiki running will need to go through every single build and be sure the skills are still acurate on a nearly monthly basis.  The only way I can see the build section becoming feasable -and- reliable, is if some timer was added to each post, that auto-erased them after a month or so.  Otherwise the section will always remain choked full of builds that no longer work due to nerfing.  Also, the build section is only encouraging every to play an assassin and use the lame BOA build.  Ugh, for the love of people with a brain and their own amount of creativity, please do away with the build section. -Avatar of Eris
 * If thats how people want to play the game, what does it matter to you? I thought the game was about having fun, but apparently it's about you being annoyed with builds. 69.246.236.111 03:28, 25 April 2007 (CDT)

]] 05:46, 18 April 2007 (CDT) Unfavor:
 * 1) - Echo ftw 17:12, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 2) Thought about it a lot and I vote for reorganizing with interest in getting the section BACK anew. I support the Build Split policy.(Edit: I don't care about namespaces, I care about having a section) I am also of the opinion that user comments are very valuable to any build discussion pages be it negative or positive. Voting for builds is not important but the amount of discussion and comments a build arises is. --BooBoo 17:32, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 3) -Jinkas 17:41, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 4) As might be easy to notice, I favor the build wipe as it will give us a fresh start to implement a new policy. All builds will be backed up, so we wont be losing anything in the process. If the community so decides, it would even be possible to revert the builds section to it's original state, although I hope that wont happen. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 19:02, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 5) Gonna lose some LOLs, but I think I can live with that. --Thom Bangalter 19:15, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 6) Like Thom said, going to lose some massive LOLs, but I think I can live with that as well. Although the builds section in gwwiki is useful, it doesn't cause anyone to actually learn about the skills in the game and about skill synergy. Any person can come on, unlock the elite, buy the skills, then use the build without even knowing what they're doing. Although I love the builds section, deleting it will probably cause people to actually think about what they're doing in their own builds, and possibly *gasp* make their own damn builds.--LolEtc 19:23, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 7) I think Thom put it the best. --Theonemephisto 19:38, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 8) Anyone who wants to save builds can save them. The builds section is not permanently gone, and even though there is strong critism (even by me) it is still the best way to go; nothing is perfect, and of course any build can be retrieved by admins if necessary. Those who think that losing the builds section will reduce the amount of visitors is correct, however, people who are GWiki "Read Only" users do not know well enough to search Unfavored builds as well when looking for ideas, etc, and usually stick to the favoured section. Our vetting process is flawed enough that many good builds are unfavoured and many bad builds are being favoured.-- Nova  [[Image:Neo-NovaSmall.jpg]] --  (contribs) 19:45, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 9) --Nog64Talk [[Image:Yaaaay.png|19px]] 20:33, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 10) Completely necessary. --Lania Elderfire[[Image:Pinkribbonsig.gif|My Talk]] 21:58, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 11) &mdash; [[Image:DE Sig Test 2.jpg|50x19px]]  *Defiant Elements*   +talk  22:22, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 12) Thelord23 00:34, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 13) Though it makes me sad, I relize that it is necessary. Readem  (talk *contribs ) 00:59, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 14) --Vazze 01:26, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 15) With so many poorly vetted builds, and so many near-duplicates, it is almost impossible to find anything unless you already know what you're looking for. The current system is flawed and needs to be redone from scratch. -Ellisthion 08:05, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 16) Yes. --Buzzer 08:33, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 17) As much as it saddens me to say so yes I am :o(. --JP 08:52, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 18) While I haven't been around and never paid much attention to the builds sections, I trust the ppl making the decision when they say things aren't working. -PanSola 11:12, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 19) I have used the build section myself in the past, but it's turning into quite a mess. edit : forgot to log in. Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|19px]] 14:18, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 20) &mdash; Hyperion` // talk 15:26, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 21) Im in favor of a build section policy renewal.--[[Image:vik.PNG]] ( √ iktor ) 18:51, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 22) The build section needs a wipe - there are too many useless / broken / duplicate builds, and the current system doesn't let us weed out the ones that are poor, they just sort of... accumulate. I personally favor No Original Builds, but this has to come first :P --Phydeaux 19:03, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 23) Normally, I'd unfavor it. But I've had SO many noobish votes on my builds(although more then 75% are favored in favored:unfavored ratio) I want the wipe to start NOW.&mdash;[[Image:Cheese.jpg|50x19px]]  Cheese Slaya  ( Talk ) 21:23, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 24) I certainly am in favour, I don't feel that the wiki should be a build repository for every build that 5 random people feel is ok, it should more highlight notable build that are quite well known. Although, I guess that is a talk for later? As for now, I feel the wipe is a good idea and will give the wiki a fresh start in the build section, and give it the oppportunity to build it up better. El Cerouni 23:31, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 25) I favor too and the good chance to this might by that, that there is limit to add builds and no more can be added until those have been tested Jope16 04:16, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 26) Duh &mdash; Skuld 09:42, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 27) I'm reluctant to vote, since that seems to be one of the primary reasons the Builds section is being trashed in the first place. But what the heck, if my presidential vote is not going to get someone good into the White House, maybe my vote here can at least make a difference. Here's to hoping. Blazeroth 10:07, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 28) Support. Although I didn't give a million arguments, nor do I intend to, the main reason I support is here. --theSpectator talk 19:14, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 29) I'm sure we'll have a better Build vetting system in the future, similar to the offsite testing site, with vetting requirments and such. -- Llednar [[Image:Assassin-icon-small.png]] 13:23, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 30) I agree, the build section has become basically trash. Ive seen lots of really imaginative builds get put down simply because it seems the entire wiki feels the only good build is wammo. Lots of the builds that do make the cut are utter trash. Healing Hands wammo?  Please... --Ryudo 22:01, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 31) Foo.
 * 32) The entire build section here is rather messy and can be done a lot better. I feel that having builds on the wiki is a good thing but it is in the best interest of the wiki to wipe them all and re-do the entire build section. MonsterAar 19:53, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
 * This sort of arguement makes no sense to me. I mean, my bedroom is messy and could be done a lot better too. Doesn't mean I should DEMOLISH THE ROOM and rebuild from the ground up now, does it? My cat is old, extremely picky with his diet, and requires daily medication, should I just kick him to the curb and get me a new cat? I can think of tons of things that aren't perfect, that doesn't mean the best way to improve them is destroy them completely and then make a new replacement one, and it CERTAINLY doesn't mean destroy it before a replacement has even been FOUND. DKS01 03:56, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 1) I suppose a fresh start would be nice. With all the changes to the skills i bet some of the builds no longer work anyways.--Aqiunas [[Image:Aquinas_sig.jpg|15px]] 20:47, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 2) I believe that a lot of good can be done with the builds wipe. like it's been said before, most of the "classic/original" builds will survive in some user's archive, and i figure it's also an extremely effective wakeup call to the builds posse (the bunch that i like to nicely call : The hyena pack). These guys need to get the message that just because they can bitch loud doesn't mean they are always right.  And people dissing builds without having ACTUALLY TRIED THEM OUT piss me off. The builds posse need to learn to be civil again, they need to stop being a fucking clique of self pretentious bastards, and frankly having them sit down with the rest of us to rebuild the section on sound policy appeals to me.--Lullysing 21:00, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Calm down. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 04:41, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 1) Quite frankly, I'm tired of people who seemingly abuse the current vetting system without testing the build or giving constructive criticism as well as some rather bad builds getting favored or good builds getting unfavored because of this. --NYC Elite 15:34, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 2) I still think Voting in a more controlled form can work.  May I suggest that you all look at http://www.anycraze.com/deck_start.asp  This is a website for voting on Magic the Gathering decks.  This concept is not that different than voting on GW builds. ImperialMike 15:55, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 3) One more from me. -- Ab.Er.Rant  (msg Aberrant80) 09:45, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 4) Although this site has a very nicely organized build section, the vetting process has just gotten to be absurd. The group that seems to decide which builds stay or go is too small and there is too little as far as any kind of rating system besides approve/ disapprove. The point is that though I feel that there is a place for builds on this site, the current system is completely out of control and if wiping it is what it takes to make this better then by all means, please do it. --Stone
 * 5) I think this is healthy for the game.  No more OMG that build is not from wiki!!  God forbid people have to learn what their own skills do and how they synergize to come up with a build.  --Rururrur 03:48, 16 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Your gaming experience must be MUCH different than mine, cause I have NEVER seen anyone complaining about someone NOT using a Wiki build. OTOH, I have seen DOZENS of comments along the lines of "LOL noob using wikibuild" or "LOL noob wiki build user LMAO" DKS01 06:58, 16 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 1) 'bout time they deleted the builds section, so much flaming there, and it's all crap. &mdash;[[User:Sigm@|Sig mA
 * 1) This is really needed. Atm players just copy the build from wiki and pick right weaponary. Thats really isnt the orginal idea of the game. Atm ppl are all using same build, eg barrage (i think that almost all rangers use barrage in general playin') and sf (eles just spam this, no idea really...). I really want some change to ppls builds, not always the same... Ofcours farming builds like those which are used in doa, stay probably the same 'cos out there you really cant use many other builds... But i still believe that after this ppl will start to more think build by them selves and really start thinking how the game and the skills work... -- Limu Tolkki 10:10, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
 * LMAO if you think people are suddenly gonna start coming up with new builds cause the wiki section is gone. They're just gonna go to GWO or Guru and say "give good ranger bld plz?" and a dozen people will reply "barrage is good use barrage/interrupt" or "try barrage+splinter weapon". That, or they're just gonna figure out on their OWN that Barrage, or SF, or whatever other popular cookier cutter builds out there are popular cause they WORK and will STILL continue to use them. In fact, without the wiki showing some ALTERNATIVE builds, the really simple easy to come up with, easy to play builds like Barrage and SF are likely gonna be even MORE common. DKS01 06:02, 19 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Hmm, I would rather have people use Wiki Builds that crappy mending wammos. Just an opinion though. Readem (talk *contribs ) 19:15, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Ok, i forget to mention, this was mostly about new players, i know so much players who've started the game and went rightaway to wiki to find a build... BUT i also now so much players who didnt do this, they started to figure out a nice build by themselves, and i can say that there wasnt many barrage or sf builds... -- Limu Tolkki 08:40, 19 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Yes, and the Thunder Clap + Brambles combo was pure genius -_-... don't forget about the terrific MM flare spammer that s "the pwnage"... boy do I love the originality! Readem (talk *contribs ) 21:10, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 1) What they said. --Macros 14:51, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 2) While there are parts of the build section that are useful, the vast majority consists of builds that are horrible, useless, extremely conditional, etc. Instead of leaving these on here to hurt more players in their innocence, deleting the whole thing and restarting from scratch will be a much more viable and useful option, provided the reborn section can avoid most of the problems the current section has. Relambrien 13:31, 22 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 3) I wholeheartedly agree with the builds wipe, this section has become far too cumbersome and overgrown its original modest beginnings, a fresh start would do it some good.--[[image:Hrothgarsig.jpg]] (talk) 04:28, 25 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 1) Are you EVEN kidding me?! There shouldnt be a wipe, this is where me and alot of my freinds use actual research that we rely on to find the new builds before ANET nerfs them!!!! :(
 * No, there should be a NOB Build section and an OB (Original Builds) section so people can have their cake and eat it too. A consensus will not be reached any other way, as both view points cannot have themselves established without violating the other. Therefore, two build sections should exist, and a build wipe should not take place. Isis In De Nile 17:47, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 1) - Wyvern 18:16, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 2) I'm against a total build wipe as it removes an essential and generally relied upon source of information to the general users. Despite the complaints and "problems" with this area according to some users, a total wipe is unnecessary and counterproductive since the proper builds/guides will have to be made all over again. Furthermore, you miss out on the history of the discussion pages if any and the variants (and the discussion of those variants) which may prove helpful. This isn't a vote on future policy so I'll leave it at this. PlacidBlueAlien 18:46, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Just a quick note: moving an article preserves it history, so we are able to back up everything without losing information. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 19:04, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Retort: Simply moving an article isn't the issue. Backing it up somewhere on someone's user space is also does not solve the underlying problem. It's still won't be widely available as it is now since this is a wipe which means to imply starting over again. If this policy was called "Transformation" instead of "Wipe" and reflected as such, I'd support it in the interim till a total new policy is hammered and agreed to. Not to mention, it kills off the section for awhile. PlacidBlueAlien 19:37, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 1) The section might not be perfect, but it give ideas to players who already understand the basics. Only having "popular builds" and basic guides will not give any benefit but to a small few players. — RabiesTurtle (contribs) 19:21, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 2) Complete and total waste of time IMO. If you're going to get rid of it and make it impossible to post builds, my make a new policy? Just scrap anything related to it. Adzma 20:28, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 3) --Grievous jedihunter 20:38, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 4) Build Wipe=Goodbye to guildwiki and welcome arenanet wiki, atleast for me, if they don't have the same ideology that is. At least don't wipe and ruin this before a future can be shaped out to apease the build comunity. Saving builds into user archives only causes a mess and wont solve a single problem, will ruin the current community and activeness in and out of builds. The current system is better then pissing off almost everyone in the build section. --Sefre  [[Image:Sefresig.jpg|15px|]] 21:30, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 5) The system is flawed, true, but that's not a reason to destroy the entire thing. The current system of US democracy isn't perfect either...should we eradicate it too? (yes, we should-AoE) DKS01 22:22, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 6) Completely idiotic. Unfortunately, most of the people who oppose (and some who support) this aren't going to post -- they're anonymous, and have a lack of faith that their opinion matters. The petition has far more signatures than this. Darkahn 00:16, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 7) Oppose. Alternate suggestion: full-protect all of the existing build pages and allow no new builds.  Nobody edits or submits builds until a policy is decided on.  Mass deletion is not going to make anyone happy; it's going to drive the people who have submitted builds away from the site.  ... Or ... is that your goal?  Hmm ... --Delia Rashesh (talk) 01:24, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 8) I am against it at this time. Although I see and recognize the need that it MUST eventually take place, I feel that performing a wipe before a new policy has been decided upon, and ready to be implemented, is short-sighted, counterproductive, and possibly harmful to guildwiki overall. The reasoning behind this is simple: From my experience and discussion with MANY other GW players, the Builds section is in fact one of the most popular, and useful, stops on the GW-Wiki train. This is despite the Admin's claim to the contrary. My suggestion (if it even matters) is to simply LOCK the section and not allow further updates until the new policies are decided and in place. THEN commence your wipe and rebuild from scratch as you see fit. Talia 01:27, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 9) Oppose w/ caveat. i realize u guys have major problems maintaining. but wiping w/o a plan already in place to replace what was wiped is completely wrong. do not wipe if u don't know exactly what u're gonna replace it with. if u're gonna replace it w/ NOB, then mess around w/ that on the side until u're happy w/ it and then wipe the current version. also, do u realize how crazy it is to have a poll on an issue where one major issue is voting itself? if u care about ppls votes, then why is there a problem w/ the voting system? if u think idiots vote on the builds, then why concern urself w/ this poll? it makes zero sense.Wongba 01:35, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * The poll was started by User:Nova, it's nothing official. Like everywhere else on this wiki (minus the Builds section), the final decision depends on the sanity of the arguments and not numbers of each side. *not even bothering to vote on this one, since it's irrelevant*. --Dirigible 01:40, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * This poll propably has no effect because a date has already been set and the decision is already made but it's important to hear the citizens. --BooBoo 03:07, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Yes, this is purely for opinions of the general public. The results of this poll will not affect the final decision, it is just to see what the majority of the users think. -- Nova  [[Image:Neo-NovaSmall.jpg]] --  (contribs) 15:39, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 1) Move the GuildWiki:Builds namespace to GuildWiki:BuildsArchive disallow edits, and new posts. This allows for the new policy to be implemented for GuildWiki:Builds yet still allows users to view the current builds. --Emo 07:35, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 2) Reasons stated throughout this discussion. -- BrianG 11:33, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 3) Consider creating a legacy builds section, so the helpful build contributions are not lost.  I agree with previous comments that even locking the section and creating a new one with new rules might also be a good option. --  10:43, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 4) While the builds section does need a massive overhaul - there's too much junk like smiting monks and people favoring their own builds - this is not a good idea. It makes the wiki far less useful to me until new builds are up. When I need a build, I alt-tab out of GW, open up all builds for a primary profession in tabs, and browse through them, filtering manually until I get down to a small group, then choosing one for the task. This is completely impossible on the GWGuru forums; forums are totally unsuitable for reference purposes. As for what should replace the current system, perhaps only experts accredited by the Wiki 'staff' should be able to do any favoring/unfavoring, because at the moment the build maker and a couple of people who can't tell their henches are doing all the work can favor a lousy build. That, plus frequent wipes of abandoned unfavored builds, should be able to keep the build section useful. Failing that, a comprehensive GW:NOB is the second best choice. Issa Dabir 14:34, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 5) While I do agree the builds section needs work, I don't think taking it down completely is a good option. It's a bit like throwing out all your dishes and buying new ones after dinner instead of cleaning the old ones.  Sadly though, I don't think any amount of effort on the part of those who want save the builds section is going to work. Those in charge have already decided what they are going to do and everything else is just window dressing. And, going with my analogy, I suspect the new dishes will be PVP only. Anyone have a link for arenanet wiki?  Area 54 09:37, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 6) I have relied on the builds in GuildWiki for a long time and am very disappointed that the builds will be wiped. There is no need for a wipe, only an overhaul on the format to add some features if that is desired. I enjoy the builds here, rather than the other resources, like GuildGuru, which is horribly undermaintained and outdated. Dracon 09:51, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 7) Before the GWWiki, I would have gone with this instantly, but now... why the hell bother? Tired of the Build section? Go somewhere else. There's no point pissing half the GWiki viewers off to accomplish very little. &mdash;  Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 13:49, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Crossed out my vote: something came to me. Oh yeah. I didn't really care in the first place. >.> &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 16:17, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 1) There are a lot of builds in the build section that aren't mainstream, but are creative and effective nonetheless; having them relegated to user space would mean they would be lost to the general public. --Ctran 01:00, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 2) The build section is an invaluable source to new players, even if it needs to be trimmed or revamped it should definitely not be totally erased.--Melonhead901 03:36, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 3) No. --Ressmonkey 19:31, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 4) So let me get this straight, we are voting on a policy that is against voting? We are arguing about a policy designed to prevent arguments. Does anybody else think that's silly? If the "authorities" have ruled that they don't want to be bothered with discussions, then this entire page is absolutely pointless. The very fact that people are heatedly debating it makes it "valid" under the point of view that Guild Wiki is for documentation and not debate. THAT is the only thing worth arguing about. The rest is frivolities. NightAngel 20:36, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
 * No, this really shouldn't happen. For starters, this website has a better feedback (discusion) than all the other builds sites. I would say, most people use this site mainly for the builds and therefore wiki would loose some viewers. Furthermore I wopuld visit wiki much less aswell, leading to alot of abandoned user accounts. Torment 04:04, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 1) If all of the builds in the current builds sections were archived somewhere in an accessible and usable form while some better policy is formulated, then I'd be fine with a builds wipe.  Something obviously needs to change.  But throwing away (or making much less accessible by tucking away on scattered user pages)a bunch of useful information is not the answer, imo.  So for now I oppose.  I'd prefer that the info in the current build space just be locked and/or moved to an archive area while this is hashed out. -- Aubee91 11:54, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 2) I'm disappointed that the Builds will be wiped. I have found the discussions on Build/Talk pages about how skills interrelate very informative and often more important than the recommended build itself.  I mostly play a PvE Ranger - I personally would never have thought of the Feverish Archer or Solo Totem Axe Farmer builds.  I've read that the wipe is a temporary step until new policy is formulated and I can see the problems with voting and with the posting of inferior or duplicate builds.  However, after the months of discussion that have taken place, I can't forsee the development of policy that will satisfactorily resolve these problems.  Finally, the NOB policy supports the PvP player, but does not help the PvE player.  While acknowledging the wipe as an inevitability, my preference is to keep the Builds.  &mdash;  Ali ( talk )  15:53, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 3) To me, the idea of saying "Other sites do builds better, so just go there" is just horseshit.  Can you imagine Yahoo saying "Google is better at searching, so just go there"?  GuildWiki is pissing away a big opportunity here.  Caspian 20:10, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 4) Noooooo!!!! This is the only part of GuildWiki that I even use... I agree with Caspian though ^^ Go4the1 03:08, 11 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 5) Wiping it out is a bad idea.  It should at least be archived until we have a proven new policy with many builds created under that policy.  Having users archiving random builds makes in impossible to search (multiple copies of builds all over the place).  Also I think this site is by far the best for finding builds.
 * 6) I love using the build section as it is.  I'm not a PvE player I only play the PvP game.  Without the Build Section where am I going to get my RA builds =[.  I noticed that the new policies will not have RA builds and this disappoints me greatly.--Magus 00:35, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Maybe you could make your own RA build instead of copying everyone else's? *shock* --Ryudo 09:40, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Why do you assume I don't? I never said I didn't make my own builds you're just jumping to conclusions.  The RA section is great for ideas.  Furthermore by your statement you could say that you're against having a build section entirely due to people not making their own builds.  Now if you could, please post constructively or not at all.--Magus 20:03, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 1) Build section is an amazing thing. It helps newbies as well good players. Anyway the site will lose many accesses after erasion. Mine first. Sjeps
 * 2) Right now I don't see GuildWiki agreeing on a format for the builds section, so I think we should keep the builds section on till then. All the good ideas are chopped down and strangely half of the people think voting is a bad way of doing things.  If GuildWiki does decide on the Profession guides, the builds section would be no more.  The number of Unfavored votes seem to be rising, so i'm going to add mine. Giangn626 19:21, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 3) No Builds, no difference from the offical wiki. I'm now tired of the "it's neccasary" crap, why is it neccasary? Many of the favour poll users are abusing this and archiving there builds, so I have no idea why they would want to archive them and delete the builds when the builds could have been kept there but the policies worked on. I know what the U.S constitution has many flaws, that means they get rid of the whole thing? Solus  [[Image:SOJsig.jpg|19px]] 11:10, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 4) omg--who gave you guys the right to delete what MANY of us use on nearly a daily basis? It's a community resource, and considerably easier to use and reference than ANY b.s. site mentioned as already existing as being better than GWiki for builds. Of course it isn't perfect. But if you want to change it, keep what you ALREADY HAVE until you decide wtf u wanna do to replace it, then parallel the two versions, then if agreeable to the community--and only if--THEN delete the old. --Queen of Spades 22:21, 12 April 2007 (CDT) additional edit, re: one of the early FAVOR voters (Lol ETC): "Although the builds section in gwwiki is useful, it doesn't cause anyone to actually learn about the skills in the game and about skill synergy." Your Mama tried to teach you to think, but she could not think for you. Does that make you the FAILURE you appear to be? Maybe, but ANY resource can be used in multiple ways, and who the HELL are you to say people shouldn't just read builds and use them mindlessly? The other sites referenced had even LESS discussion of guiding how the skills work, and what variations were possible. and who give a rat's rear what 'everyone' does? if some people learn a tremendous amount about builds here, as I do, and how skill synergies work, is that because the people put forth effort? what are you going to come up with that make people LEARN when they don't want to? NOTHING, else your Mama would have been able to teach you to think. IMHO. --Queen of Spades 22:27, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Hey, don't you be talking smack about my Mama! --Dirigible 22:54, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 1) reguardless of the extent of the damage, it is always easier to repair then rebuild. no one would consider smelting new metal for a busted bumper, and wiping the build section is akin to tossing all the aluminum in north america in favor of new aluminum from a trendy-er country. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 22:57, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 2) Sarah has a way with words that I lack. I shall borrow hers instead. --Armond Warblade (talk) 00:51, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
 * No doubt Ms. Sarah has a way with words, but alas I must point out that her metaphor (or allegory, though I'm always reluctant to apply that label) is less relevant than it might seem at first glance. Perhaps repairing is less time-consuming and more economical in certain cases, such as Ms. Sarah's wonderful example using aluminum. But the build wipe is not aimed at trying to restore a broken builds section. Instead, think of the builds section as a run-down, graffiti-covered, termite-ridden burnt out shell of an abandoned abode stuck in the roughest hellhole of Detroit (and yes, I know what that looks like, I've lived in Detroit). You could go ahead and try to restore that (the foundations are still sound) but there's really not a point. Might as well take a wrecking ball to it and start over (perhaps making it bigger and better than it could ever have been before). Now, some might see my example as taking the metaphor to an extreme; but if mine is sitting on one end of the metaphorical scale, then Sarah's is on the other. In the end, both are exaggerations (and if Aristotle is to be trusted, then virtue might be found in the mean), and both are simply used to illustrate a point of view. You are free to believe either case, but allow me to conclude by noting that it's easier to hold on to what you have rather than let go and make a grab for something better, but if the former was the attitude people had taken at various points in history then we might all be riding horses instead of cars, America might still be in the British Empire, and we might not be playing Guild Wars on this wonderful thing we call the Internet. -- Blazeroth 19:43, 14 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 1) Same as sarah.
 * 2) A LOT of people come to GuildWiki mostly for the builds, and while they look at other stuff too, the builds section is really a popular place. Deleting it will likely cause a heck of a lot of annoyance with all the members of GuildWiki. I know it's only for a short period, but as I said before many people come here for the builds, and going through loads of user spaces to find the right builds isn't gonna make people happy. I just want to add, if the Builds section is deleted, it had better be restored quickly or many people are gonna get really really mad, and never come to GuildWiki again. After all, without the builds section, it's good, but not amazing. Not good enough to stay as a Guild Wars speciality fansite in my view.Dervish Mazta 12:41, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 3) Builds is the reason I use this wiki and not the official one. If builds go away, there's a 99% chance I'll leave GWiki. It'll be worthless when I could use the official. Daltin Wentsworth 15:28, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 4) Yeeeaaaaah, um, see there are idiots, idiots like me who need builds to bounce their originals off of. Like i sadi, i use it, im probably on the builds section more than the others!--Kurzspear '' 15:53, 14 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Yep, adding on. Definately using the official Wiki. It may not be as thorough as this one is yet, but hey, it's a wiki. Daltin Wentsworth 14:44, 14 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 1) Builds are why I use this wiki. If 10% of the builds are not top tier it doesn't really matter to readers.  The half of the users here who don't use the builds section and want it to go away should just not use it rather than imposing their policy on the other half.--Mont 16:01, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 2) Surely a build limit per month or something better can be implemented. --DragonWR12LB 21:40, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 3) I live in the build section, thats the number one place i'm at on the wiki followed up by the skill section. Heck, if what I love so much goes away, so will I. My life will be torn apart! I visit the wiki to check up on new builds once a day, I even created 4 tested builds in the farming section! please don't do this foolish thing. Yes, I think that there are some builds that need to be deleted, but not them all. For example, the builds that don't work "great" anymore like the Build:Mo/E Divine Spirit Spammer should be move in the archived section with it... seems that this vite is 50/50 about! :) Trevor3443 18:31, 14 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 4) of course some of the builds are posted in the wrong manner and some become obsolete after nerfs, however, this remains one of the best build collections around. some builds will work, some will not. leave it up to the users to sort through them. wipe is a very poor answer for a minimal problem. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Roland Of Ka Tet (contribs).
 * 5) NO! And I'm starting builds only wiki with FULL and COMPLETE copy of Build namespace here. Evryone are welcome to help. Gcardinal 23:58, 15 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 6) Not that my opinion will be read or even considered, but does it matter whether the build is 'accepted?'  I don't like playing as a touch ranger (which is accepted) or as a vermin farmer While each is suitable for a specific, or arguably limited, purpose--time, place, etc..  The knowledge of what is out there matters and lets others derive enjoyment from the game.  Guildwiki is superior in ease of navigation and user participation (Guildwiki generally is what people answer when a question is raised in the game...).  I have quoted Miyamoto Musashi many times, “By knowing things that exist, you can know that which does not exist” (pardon the bad translation).  Even bad builds let people know what MAY not work and lets them move on with more information.  Fact:  builds, like experiments, that do NOT or MAY NOT work provide valuable data to users/researchers on which (classes/skills/etc.) to use or not use for future builds/experiments.  Therefore, I argue the data, even if not 'liked' by the admins in its current form, is valuable to the community as a whole.  In my opinion, deleting the build space reduces the value of GW--the answer will now be, "See Guildwiki.org AND Buildwiki.org (or whatever alternate domain is selected) because you can't get all the data in one place..."  Build it and they will come.  You have, and they have.  Now please don't go and undo it...  Since it WILL be deleted on May 1, I suppose the best we can get is an official fork?Manos Lijeros 11:04, 16 April 2007 (CDT) 11:00, 16 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 7) Find a suitable replacement before deleting peoples work? Like many others, the builds pages are one of the main reasons I visit this site --SK [[Image:Assassin-icon-small.png]]  11:14, 16 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 8) I use the Builds page as a source of inspiration.  While the Build namespace is empty, hunting through User pages for some build I vaguely remember seeing one time is crazy.  I think that the number of people archiving builds, and the number of builds archived by users has to submitted as strong evidence for keeping the Builds section.  As I understand it - and I'm a casual user, so I probably don't - the primary problem with the Builds section was the voting process.  I liked the voting.  Or at least, I liked votes where the voter explains why they voted the way they did.  Otherwise I ignored both positive and negative votes.  I suspect that the only real change that's necessary for the Builds process is to not have votes count toward deletion (but otherwise leave all else the same, including 'Favored' and 'Unfavored' status).  The basic premise of a Builds section where the builds are created with community input seems entirely in keeping with the Wiki spirit. AnticDevices 13:42, 16 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 9) Without a builds section, there really is no compelling reason to continue to visit this site over the now "official" guild wars wiki.  Nuking the Builds section is the beginning of the end for this wiki, and the thought of destroying such a vast wealth of information is reason alone for me to make it a point never to re-visit after May 1.  After the nuke, in place of a "one stop shot" and a great community, your disenchanted users will split themselves between the "official" wiki and the soon-to-be "builds" wiki.  R.I.P. Guildwiki. Jaofos 15:01, 16 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I guess people will never learn to read. It clearly says on the wipe page that a new policy for builds will probably be made by the contributors, so the section will be back soon enough. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 15:30, 16 April 2007 (CDT)
 * And you have continually failed to read that the new policies under discussion are not what WE consider a build section. NOB and Prof Archetypes is NOT a "build section", and those are the 2 replacement policies that have been pointed out to us repeatedly. DKS01 17:49, 16 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Then propose another, or cry more? :-/ &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Skuld (contribs).
 * If you read the comments above, you'll notice that many people seem to think that there will be no builds section at all, although that isn't true. If you don't like NOB, then make a policy proposal of your own. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 22:32, 16 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Gem, as far as I'm concerned NOB is effectively the same as having no build section at all, because no one would never be able to find an original build except by already knowing it existed on someone's user space. Here is a policy proposal for you--leave the build section alone! --Ctran 14:10, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
 * @Gem's quote: "I guess people will never learn to read. ...a new policy for builds will probably be made by the contributors....[italics added]" Yeah, I read you loud and clear. First the PUTDOWN, then the equivocation stated as authoritative fact. To paraphrase the old 'limited government' joke, "I'm a GuildWiki moderator and I'm here to help you." --Queen of Spades 13:57, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 1) An absolute no SilentFry April 16th, 2007 8:47 PM (EST)
 * 2) I concur, like many others I use the wiki almost completely just for the build section. Leave it be. 82.17.103.240 07:32, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 3) Please don't wipe... information shouldn't be trashed this way... it's like banning/burning books :( 128.84.2.133 04:18, 19 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 4) Exactly! Hhhippo 06:08, 19 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 5) This kind of reminds me of the book Farenheit 411... Just at least postpone it until we can find a better way...and then you can wipe out everything but the obviously favored builds... Ni. 09:45, 22 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 6) I think there should be a sweep, but not a complete wipe.--Bloo Kazoo 23:53, 22 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 7) laissez faire, the sites perfect the way it was. The builds section is a great guidline, suggestion and is good for a fun way to play your character that you might not have thought about.  So what if people use it religiously and never put any thought into it?  so what if skill balancing might throw a build out of favor?  People are playing the game the way they want to, whether you think it's a fun way or not.  People use ANY given information in a way you might not approve of, but it doesn't mean the information shouldn't be there.  In short, it does well what it was supposed to do, and that is act as a guideline.  69.246.236.111 03:24, 25 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 8) I'd like not, but it's going to happen anyway ... mai pen rai 61.91.191.11 03:33, 25 April 2007 (CDT)

Now, where is the db dump
Not sure if this has been mentioned before here, but of course, anyone who disagrees with the build wipe would be free to copy the build namespace and put it up somewhere else, maybe attempting to create a separate build-only wiki. Maybe this would be a good time to make a database dump available (as has been discussed before), before everything is gone? DeepSearch 04:56, 12 April 2007 (CDT)


 * That is a good point. I'll donate space to host such a dump, and I'll talk to Fyren to try to get one on the last day in April. &mdash;Tanaric 18:56, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Just wanted to say that I'm building a build-only wiki now. I have about 30-40% done, and I think I will finish it by the end of the week. Anyone interested in running it together with me are free to contact me. I think you what you guys are about to do are sick and I WILL do something about it. Gcardinal 22:17, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I would be interested in helping with this. DKS01 23:25, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
 * As long as you don't mean vandalism, you're free to do anything about it :) -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 23:27, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I would also be interested in helping. --Armond Warblade (talk) 00:11, 14 April 2007 (CDT)


 * I don't have a lot of time to give to a builds page, but I would love a link to the page. Thx Area 54 09:01, 14 April 2007 (CDT)


 * I'd be happy to help with this issue. While I am not a 'build expert,' I am happy to help with html/editing/css/testing of builds, etc.  Information is a terrible thing to waste...Manos Lijeros 10:14, 16 April 2007 (CDT)

My new wiki site with complete and full copy of build section are now online and are open for beta testing. We need YOUR help, contact me for info. Gcardinal 01:18, 18 April 2007 (CDT)

Building "Builds" only wiki
More info about making a new builds-only wiki can be found here: Building "builds" only Wiki. Gcardinal 09:19, 14 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Update 18.04.07
 * Site is now open for beta testing. Contact me now, we Need Your Help!


 * Update 17.04.07
 * Today I finally got hosting running and everything.
 * Currently Im working to get all articles edited and add gw: interwiki in front of evrething that is not a build.
 * Takes some time... So I think it will be open for beta testing in a day or 2.


 * Update 16.04.07 ==
 * I'm almost finished. I have registered a domain, fixed hosting and wiki startng to look good.
 * I have made complete copy of Build: namespace
 * Complete copy of Template:
 * Copy of all skill Image: + some must-have image's.
 * #1's page will be the same as Build:Main_Page
 * All links will be linked to GuildWiki using interwiki (almost done)
 * f you wish to become admin or want to help, message me.


 * Update 14.04.07
 * I have about 40% done, and I think I will finish it by the end of the next week. Anyone interested in running it together with me are free to contact me. It will be first open for beta testing and close circle of people who will apply as admin/beta-tester so we can complete dumping of all builds. I will also need help with scripting a few things so please contact me if you can help me. Gcardinal 01:20, 18 April 2007 (CDT)

Why was this page mostly archived?
I may have missed consensus on this, which is why I'm not simply reverting, but traditionally we only archive dead conversations, not ones that are still underway. &mdash;Tanaric 18:58, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I archived all the old discussion that hasn't gone anywhere. Gem pulled the ongoing poll out of archive (good catch btw, I missed it). The rest of the discussion had ended. Revert if you disagree, but the 160kb page was getting too long to navigate. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 19:09, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I hardly consider my RA/CM discussion old. It was started yesterday for crying out loud...--Magus 20:45, 12 April 2007 (CDT)


 * On a page as important as this I would recommend not to archive a section until it has been stale for well over a week, perhaps longer.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 04:45, 13 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Unfortunately, this page isn't ultimately that important in the long run. The admins don't really care what we think, they made their choice to wipe the builds and that's what's going to happen regardless of anything posted here. DKS01 05:11, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
 * ...? -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 05:11, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I assume the ? means you're wanting clarification on something? If so, you'll have to be a little more...verbose, as I honestly don't know what you're wanting me to clarify, sorry. DKS01 05:29, 13 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Of course it is important! Regardless of whether the build wipe happens this page holds a lot of opinion from various people about what they do and don't like about the builds section.


 * And to say that the admins don't care is extremely offensive. I've been checking this, NOB and PNB regularly since the builds wipe was first suggested, as I'm sure most admins have, so please don't act as though we don't care when in fact we merely disagree. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 05:45, 13 April 2007 (CDT)


 * A lot of opinions that support the decision, which are listened to, and a lot of opinions from people who do NOT support the decision, all of which have been completely disregarded. We can't even get a REASON for the wipe beyond "it's not working perfectly as is", which last I checked is not exactly a reason for a complete removal of something. As for you taking offense, I find the decision to wipe the section offensive, and it's obvious they don't care about that, so I guess it evens out, doesn't it? If they TRULY cared they would have asked for community INPUT about the build wipe on the main page, rather than just one day posting a note that essentially says "hey, this section a lot of you guys use is gonna be deleted in a month, there ain't shit you can do about it, have fun". DKS01 05:55, 13 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Why do you keep saying "they"?


 * The idea of a builds wipe was suggested and those that were involved in the build policy's were asked their opinion. Tanaric then proposed a very reasonable time frame, which was altered and condoned by a number of others, that would allow enough time for users to voice their concerns, and also allow enough time to A) see if the rest of the community was entirely opposed to the wipe and B) see if anyone could come up with a strong and persuasive argument against wiping.


 * A has not happened, there appear to be more supporters of the wipe than there are detractors. B has not happened, no one has come up with a good argument to avoid the wipe.


 * As for why the wipe is happening, let me put it this way; if the builds section produced really good results but it caused a lot of NPA violations and aggro then we could say "at least the results are good". If the builds section produced bad results but everyone was really friendly then we could say "well the builds section might be full of rubbish but at least it doesn't cause any harm". As it is the builds section is neither high quality nor a friendly place to contribute. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 07:31, 13 April 2007 (CDT)


 * About a timeframe for users to voice their concern, many of us never HEARD OF THIS until it was posted on the main page. Not ONCE was there ANYHING posted on the main page(or even the main BUILDS PAGE) about the possibility of a build wipe until AFTER the decision had already been made, rendering our opinions moot. And I suspect that was deliberate, you admins wanted a wipe, so you kept it under the general wiki-user radar until enough time had past that you could just announce it, then claim "we gave you a chance to object and you didn't, now it's too late". About more supporters than detractors, umm, we have about the same number of votes here, and if you check Sefre's no-wipe petition, there are signees there who have not signed this one, which would cause the number of detractors to equal or surpass the number of supporters. We've given repeated arguements about why NOT to wipe, conversely, you have not given us any to support it. Every reason given so far is "it's not perfect", which has been countered dozens of times already. I'll give you credit for at least trying a new logic, that the section has violations of NPA, although I sorta think that would be the user's fault rather than the section's. As for it's results, doesn't that TOO fall upon the users? I've had great success with both favored and unfavored builds, and I've had poor success also with both favored and unfavored builds. I've also had poor success with unfavored builds, altered the builds a bit, then had success with the offshoot build and conversely tried alternate versions of good favored builds and failed miserably. Again, not the fault of the section, the fault of me and my play style. There IS useful information there for a great many people regardless. Additionally, ANY area where a variable topic is up for discussion there will likely be arguements, so no matter WHAT system replaces the current one, the exact same problem will likely exist there. People don't (usually) argue on the talk pages for Fellblade and Shinobi Blade for example simply because there's nothing really there to debate. The max damage will always be the same, the weapon class will always be the same, the usefulness of each will always be the same, so the only thing people can argue about is if the weapon looks "cool" or not. I mean, there's still people who argue about touch rangers and barrage rangers, and both those are already listed as "acceptable" according to the profession guide... DKS01 08:12, 13 April 2007 (CDT)


 * The point I was trying to make is that this period now is the timeframe. This period is when you can try to change our minds.


 * I thought my argument against the builds section was pretty sound. Apparently you do not. I don't think there's much I can do about that! :P


 * This is not new logic. Many other users have mentioned it previously (quite regularly IIRC) and if you look through most of my arguments against builds I have had the following problems with the builds section for some time:


 * It's subjective content.
 * A build is "owned" by its author, meaning it's not owned by everyone, like other articles on the wiki.
 * It causes a lot of problems with users arguing because they think their build is great.
 * The quality is low.


 * I agree with you; I've had success (and failure) from both favoured and unfavoured builds, but doesn't that just prove that the criteria that we have for vetting builds is broken?


 * I strongly believe that user builds should not be vetted because it causes a lot of problems. I also believe that we have a duty to provide content of a high standard. If we cannot vet user builds then we should not publish them. I could cope with them existing in the user space, on the provision that it was made clear that the wiki as a whole did not endorse a particular build, i.e. by not linking to user builds from the main namespace. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 08:39, 13 April 2007 (CDT)


 * But the decision has already been made. It's essentially been stated this is just to see how people react, and won't change anything, so how is this period now the timeframe? It's already apparently set in stone regardless of how people react, which may very well prevent people from discussing it in the first place. *I* only posted here when I saw the announcement because, frankly, I tend to be arguementative about things that interest me, and the build section interests me greatly. Were I not the naturally arguementative sort, having seen that announcement I would have just sighed and accepted that the admins decided to do it, and there was nothing I could do about it so why waste my time debating something that's already been decided upon.
 * True, it is subjective, but there is still useful info there, and much work by many people has been devoted to it. Despite it's flaws, it can still be extremely useful and helpful, so it should remain. Additionally, I(and apparently many other people opposed to the wipe) would have no problem with protecting or locking the section so people couldn't add more to it. This would also solve the NPA problem.
 * A build becomes public domain when the author publishes it here. If he doesn't want his build possibly changed, disapproved of, or whatever, he should keep it to himself, or share it somewhere with his friends or whatever. This is clearly stated when posting an article, any belief otherwise is a problem with the user, not the section.
 * Anything subjective causes those arguements. The proposed policies for the new builds section will not change that. As I said, people still argue about barragers and touch rangers, and those are considered "proven" builds. I even see people argue about MM's from time to time, one of the most desired parts of many groups. If there's any form of build section at ALL here, you will have people arguing. Even "vetted" builds are still subjective, so if subjectivity is reason to remove builds, there should be no build section here at all, in ANY form. And if that is the route that this wiki is taken in, I would accept that as well, I just would no longer see why I should use this wiki over the official one.
 * Yes, there is low quality stuff there, but there is also high quality stuff there, same as many other sections of the wiki.
 * I agree vetting is broken, but a complete wipe is not the way to fix it. If my comp speakers die, I'm not going to shelve my printer, hard drive, monitor, etc and build a new computer from scratch...and even if I DO eventually decide I wanna get an entirely new computer, I'm not going to get rid of the old one and be completely without a computer until I already have the replacement one ready to go. We do not even have a replacement policy ready to go yet, so until THAT issue is resolved a wipe seems premature. Leave the current section as is(or locked/protected, if you feel it necessary) then when a new replacement IS decided on, wipe away. I may very well not like the replacement either(I know I don't like the proposed ones so far), but I'd at least accept the fact that one had been decided on, and then I could decide whether to continue using this wiki or switch to the Anet one. With the current version, the decision is already being made for me, I've very clearly been told in this discussion that if I don't like the decision I should go somewhere else, and once the wipe is done, I very likely will. This is frustrating, because prior to this announcement I had fully planned on completely ignoring the Anet wiki and sticking with this one, but now I find that this one cares even less about the community than the Anet one does, so I've lost much of my motivation to stay here. DKS01 09:20, 13 April 2007 (CDT)


 * 1) Protecting such a huge area of the wiki is infeasible and not an option. If you which to make a static copy of the builds section you are entitled to do that now, but this is a wiki, and as such we cannot easily protect an entire section. Additionally I don't think it's possible to prevent new entries in the build section, so admins would have to run around and manually remove new articles.
 * 2) It's not public domain, but you are right, that's how people should behave, but they don't. And it's understandable that they don't. Allowing users to post their own builds means that there is some presumed ownership. No one could claim to own an article in the main namespace, like Word of Healing, or Tyria, but in the build namespace people do act as though the builds are their own, and as long as people can submit their own ideas they will always act that way.
 * 3) I don't agree with you there. I think a system where common builds are the only ones that are vetted would cause less problems than allowing anyone to submit a build. For a start this reduces the level of ownership; no one can claim to own Touch Ranger, but you could make an argument that Stabber is the author of Build:R/N Touch Ranger. I have to say I also agree that if we cannot make something like NOB or the guides policy work then it proves that we can't have subjective content and we shouldn't have any builds.
 * 4) Where is the low quality content on the rest of the wiki?
 * 5) This isn't fair, I only made 4 points :P I'm sorry you feel that we do not care about the community opinion, but again, I find this quite offensive since I've spent a great deal of time today trying to explain the reasons behind the wipe after you claimed that no one had done so, and I've read your arguments thoroughly and tried to respond to them fairly. If you decide to abandon this wiki then I think that would be a shame, but I do not agree that we don't care about the community. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 10:07, 13 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Other large areas have been protected in the past, why is this one different though? Is there a reason why it would be harder to protect that page than the main page for example?
 * I've seen people get defensive because the image they uploaded for some article or another was replaced by a different image. I've likewise seen build authors have no problems with their builds being altered or changed. Why should the section be removed because some of the users don't understand how the wiki works?
 * Sure, you could make an arguement that Stabber is the author of that page, and you could make an arguement that I am the author of the Sunburst Spear page but neither article belongs to either of us. This is clearly stated when an article is posted, and if the author feels he owns the article, it's a user problem, not a section problem.
 * I've seen item articles with no images(and at least one instance of a green having the incorrect stats listed), I've seen skill pages with incorrect progressions, I've seen mission pages that give awful info, you can find low quality stuff scattered about. I try to fix what I can as do many other people, there's just more of it in the builds section simply because there's MORE of the builds section.
 * You are one person, and you are the ONLY one even trying to give a reason beyond "it's not perfect". And even you haven't given a reason why the section shouldn't at least remain UNTIL a new system is ready to be implemented. And again, I believe if the admins(as a whole, not just you) truly cared about the community they would not be deleting one of THE most useful parts of the wiki(and the only thing that sets this one apart from the official one) and going against the wishes of a large portion of the community simply because it's not a perfect system. DKS01 20:57, 13 April 2007 (CDT)


 * In response to your number one, I would ask you to give an example of when "Other large areas have been protected in the past..." as I cannot think of any. As for your assertion that the Admins don't care about the community, I for one don't.  (*gasp* Oh no he dinnit.)  I care about the wiki as a whole, the "Guild Wars community", not so much.  --Rainith 21:38, 13 April 2007 (CDT)


 * If I read the above comment right, then you don't care about the "Guild Wars Community" very much. A shame really...Lijera Dew 18:40, 17 April 2007 (CDT)


 * I'm of opposite a mindset compared to Rainith. I care about the Guild Wars community.  GuildWiki as a whole?  Not so much.  Therefore I support the build wipe. -PanSola 04:17, 18 April 2007 (CDT)

Do not Remove Random Arena and Competitive Mission Builds Post Wipe!
The primary reason I'm concerned with the upcoming wipe is related to the RA and CM builds. I do not see a reason not to include them once the build section is restarted. I personally know many individuals and friends who love these PvP build categories and wouldn't have anywhere to go on the internet for an alternative. The alternatives you gave on the Build's Wipe article are not sufficient. Nothing will compare to the Guildwiki's RA and CM build sections. Please include these sections in any new policy you decide upon as they are as valid as any PvP venue in guildwars.--Magus 01:34, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * i'd argue the RA/CM builds are the majority of the issue. the problem is the over-proliferation of builds (some 1700 unfavored builds, mostly RA/CM), not the play style of builds. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 01:37, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Honorable Sarah, I do not understand why RA and CM builds should be blamed for that problem. That is a policy problem not a PvP build problem.  Do not get them confused.--Magus 20:22, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * See my response to your comment on the NOB page. Anything works for RA. ANYTHING. Just use a solid split-capable build from GvG and you'll find it works fine in RA. There aren't any builds that only work in RA; that's why we don't need to document them. - [[Image:Candle.jpg|12px]] Krowman (talk • contribs) 01:37, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Not everything works in PvP there are builds that do and do not work. There is a myth that everything works.  As you have said before certain builds overlap such as GvG runners.  These builds work well in RA.  You are of course saying that one build would work better than another with contradicts your statements.  I have a hard time understanding the hate with this community against Random Arena and Competitive Arena Builds.  --Magus 20:20, 12 April 2007 (CDT)

I would like the wipe as it would improve upon the quality of builds in this wiki. I however do not like that you're not restarting it with all PvP categories like it is now. Random Arena and Competitive Arena Builds should be documented. I cannot give a favored vote due to the new policies removing viable builds sections. The Wiki is a place of documentation. Lets keep it that way.--Magus 20:42, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * No offense, but wtf are you talking about? Runners probably have the least overlap when it comes to RA/GvG builds. Once in a while, you will get one of the two maps that have obelisks in them, and the run from flag spawn to obelisk takes about 10 seconds without a speed boost. Runners are ultra specific, being designed only for flag/relic running . Possibly with a little bit of party support, but the effectiveness of that support diminishes greatly with smaller teams (i.e. HP, LoD, Extinguish, Aegis). I don't see how I'm contradicting myself when I say that one build is more effective than another, especially when I really exaggerated the example of a bad build to make my point. In short, people hate RA/CM because they are so random. You might roll against a team of 4 or 8 of the worst players out there. When that happens, you can probably beat them with a build that requires no skill, thought or synergy whatsoever to play. - [[Image:Candle.jpg|12px]]

Krowman (talk • contribs) 02:30, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Sorry I ment "GvG split-capable build" as you said before, not runners. You're right SOME people do hate RA.  But you also must realize that SOME people love RA.  You know, you don't have to visit the RA/CM section if one is remade.  You don't have to hate it just ignore it like it is not even there.  You sound as if you're going to go to ArenaNet HQ and strangle the person who designed RA and CM PvP.
 * The Wiki is a place to document everything about guildwars. No part of the game should be excluded as every part is equally important. The developers wanted Random Arenas and Competitive Arenas to be a part of their game design.  It should be our duty as a wiki community to complement their great game with non biased documentation and resources.--Magus 04:29, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Well, if you want RA builds, provide them. Give us some examples of popular, unoriginal RA or CM builds that we would be missing out on documenting with this policy. - [[Image:Candle.jpg|12px]] Krowman (talk • contribs) 01:43, 14 April 2007 (CDT)

Will it take a year for the Build Section to Mature Post Wipe?
I'm curious of how long it will be before the build section becomes useful again after the wipe. How long will it take for each PvP section to be populated with new builds equivalent to the amount we have now in the build section? What I'm afraid of is waiting a year for the build section to mature. If this takes forever to happen most people will just go to other sites and I'm afraid that Guildwiki may lose quite a big chunk of their audience.--Magus 20:56, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Based on how much people have backed up, if we get a system up, I bet we could get most important builds up in full within a week. --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]]   22:34, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * No one has to back up anything, I thought Admins could retrieve deleted data -- Nova  [[Image:Neo-NovaSmall.jpg]] --  (contribs) 19:36, 13 April 2007 (CDT)

Just to get a few things understood.
Basically from what I have read is that the builds will not be deleted, just the whole process how they will be added and setup will be deleted? Is there some possible way I could keep links to the builds for later research? B.N 03:37, 13 April 2007 (CDT)


 * No, they'll be deleted, the admins will just have backups in case they decide to bring them back, though the 2 shitty policies that have already been thrown out there as replacements(NOB and Profession Archetypes) insures that only the most mindless, play by numbers cookie cutter builds will actually get reposted. The only way to keep links to the builds you like is to post them on your userpage, or find someone else who has the build you want posted on their userpage. DKS01 03:42, 13 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Actually, a lot of users are archiving builds on their userpages so they will not be deleted. When a new, more effective policy is in place, those builds will be readily accessible should they be allowed to be moved. It seems that a lot of those opposed are blaming this action on the admins, and that is fine. Users have to blame someone, so why not the admins of GuildWiki. For those that say they plan to basically boycott GuildWiki, remember, while this seems bad right now and some of the proposed policies are not what most of you like, they are not final and just because they are proposed does not mean any of them will be the new builds policy. Patience, understanding, and a level head is what is needed from everyone right now and I hope that in time people will see that this will allow for a better builds section for users to look to for the best possible information to help them to play the game more effectively and for a more positive builds community. &mdash; Gares 11:32, 13 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Us users aren't blaiming all the admins Gare, we are blaiming YOU. It's ALL your fault, jk :) I don't see why so many users support the build wipe, yet archive a ton of builds regardless. Solus  [[Image:SOJsig.jpg|19px]] 11:38, 13 April 2007 (CDT)


 * They're saving them for a better policy, or personal use &mdash; Skuld 11:54, 13 April 2007 (CDT)


 * I've been quiet about all this and watching it unfold, but it seems you have found me out. I am the mastermind behind the decision. Bwah, ha, ha, ha! :P


 * To expand on what Skuld said, I am positive this is for the best, regardless of the drama it has caused. I think others do too, which is why they are archiving most of the builds. I don't think the section will be gone for long. Just until a new policy is in effect and with the number of people voicing their opinions now, I will hope they will also voice their opinions and ideas to help come up with a new policy. My view is that most of the builds are being archived for standby for when the new policy is in effect so they can be easily moved should that be apart of the new builds policy. &mdash; Gares 11:56, 13 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Ok, that seems to be an easyer read than most of the articles(alot shorter too :P). I guess all I want to know now is why delete Everything and not just all pages linking them together and keep an archive that is accessable to people that know how to "dig" for them? Like if the Build:Main Page was deletded, wouldnt that break any link to them? Or possibly transform this entire section of wiki into a "builds n' skills only" place, and have the [] as the info on everything else? B.N 12:57, 13 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Sounds interesting, since we are going to face a lot of competition very shortly from the "official wiki" (thanks for stealing our idea and leeching off our users, ANet) but we're going to lose in the end. No point having two wikis with near-exact data, why not make this the "inofficial" part with builds and stuff? :P -- Nova  [[Image:Neo-NovaSmall.jpg]] --  (contribs) 19:39, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Sure guys that is all great. But there is many many people who are really happy with the things as they are today. I posted a2 builds here on wiki and it was big debate around the renaming and removing my original build name, and how I could keep my credits and so on. And yeah it hurts my back when my cool name becomes something boring and some noob makes lame video and gives him self credit for My build. But after seeing how my Mo/E Solo G goes into Mo/E_SoA_Sliver, stupid name, yeah, great build? No sh%% :) Many people edit it, add new stuff, build is not dead, it is Alive. And if not everyone can see gcardinal all over it, I know I made it. It is my build, people are using it and it help them. So now I don't really care all about credits and stuff. Thats why I'm going to creat a build only wiki, for people who just want to shere they builds and improve them for the sake of the game, not credits. Gcardinal 07:54, 16 April 2007 (CDT)

Seems like moving all of this to personal space on GW somewhere eats up a lot of space for multiple copies. Couldn't this be prevented? As a worse-case option, keep a static April 30 snapshot of the builds page as a pdf or non-editable page? Perhaps I'll just copy all of them over... As for 'official' vs 'non-official' wiki, just remember that official wikis generally are not wikis...offical sites generally control content much more than a wiki. Oh, wait... :)Manos Lijeros 13:08, 16 April 2007 (CDT) 13:07, 16 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Space isn't a problem, these pages are tiny &mdash; Skuld 04:58, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
 * The whole affair is really sad in my opinion. According to wikipedia, "A wiki (IPA: [ˈwɪ.kiː] or [ˈwiː.kiː][1]) is a website that allows visitors to add, remove, edit and change content, typically without the need for registration. It also allows for linking among any number of pages. This ease of interaction and operation makes a wiki an effective tool for mass collaborative authoring."  Seems like you should really rename the site now...  How about Guilddot?Lijera Dew 18:45, 17 April 2007 (CDT)

Will Tanaric Eat His Words? (Probably Not)
On April 3rd, only 2 days after the build wipe information was posted for all users, Tanaric had this to say in prediction of the response:

"On a related tangent, since the April 2nd announcement, only an additional handful of people have cared enough to bitch about it. If I had suddenly gotten 500 emails or something, I'd be reconsidering my stance about the builds wipe. As it is, there are really only a very few vocal naysayers to the builds wipe, which makes me all the more certain that it's the correct course of action."

I'm surprised that there has not been more discussion about the fact that the opinion poll shows more users opposed to the build wipe than for it. If Tanaric meant what he said, that he would reconsider in light of strong opposition, is the opinion poll making him reconsider? I also want to point out that many users who voted in favor of the build wipe seem to be under the assumption that the builds section will return and many of the archived builds will be restored. Unfortunately, I strongly believe that this assumption is unrealistic and naive, and I think if these voters realized this, they would also be opposed to the wipe. Another Tanaric quote states:

"I think most of us would agree that another vetting system is the opposite of what we want. I think many people here will stop reading any proposal immediately upon seeing the words voting or vetting."

Unfortunately, this attitude is the exact reason why consensus was never reached on an improved vetting system. Despite the efforts of many, every attempt to improve the build section was thwarted by this exact type of attitude (voting will never work), sometimes not even considering the proposal but opposing it simply for the fact that it involved voting. Its a bit of a red herring to basically say "Me and my friends don't think voting will ever work, but we are taking the build section away because you guys failed to get us to agree with you on an improved vetting system". If the only people who participated in efforts to improve the vetting system were people who actually felt vetting could work, we might have actually been able to reach consensus on an improved vetting policy. The build wipe displays the bias of the admin team and wiki elite for an NOB-like policy, and is the first step towards achieving that policy. Any attempt to propose a new policy that involves voting will be summarily dismissed as Tanaric stated in the quote above, and in the meantime, there will either be no build section or NOB will be implemented as the only other choice. Users who keep leaving comments indicating that the build section will quickly return with an improved vetting policy, and then all the builds will be copied back, should stop dreaming, and stop misleading hopeful fans of this wiki's build section. -- BrianG 23:12, 16 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Except that 1. That poll isn't anything official, and 2. the ratio isn't even 1:2. It's not as pitched as you make it seem. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 00:37, 17 April 2007 (CDT)


 * And 3. While you can argue that many "favoured" voters are mistaken in their understanding, so many "unfavoured" voters seem to be under the impression that the builds section will not be returning in any form.


 * I see no reason why Tanaric should eat his words at this point. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 04:00, 17 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Further, I wasn't exaggerating when I said 500 emails. I've gotten 0 so far. On a site with tens of thousands of unique viewers daily, the ~50 people complaining on a talk page really is insignificant. Had a bunch of random, anonymous users erroneously edited random articles to complain, or had I gotten a single personal message about this, you might have a point. As it is, the people against the builds wipe are, number-wise, nearly insignificant. &mdash;Tanaric 04:48, 17 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Ouch. Tantric, you understand, as someone who politely disagrees with the build wipe policy,  that being told I am one of the nearly insignificant people would seem to violate GW:YAV.  Described by an Admin as being nearly insignificant, it's hard for me to understand how I have the 'same clout' as any other member of the community.  This may not have been what you meant, but it is what you said.  Knowing upfront that you consider my small expressed opinion on this talk page to be insignificant (numerically or otherwise), what can I expect if I email you?  Why is an email more significant than a note on this talk page?  Why would I imagine that an email would carry more weight with you? AnticDevices 09:32, 17 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Tantric eh? -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 09:39, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Great rebuttle :) Solus  [[Image:DiscipleSymbol2.jpg|19px]] 09:47, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
 * It's actually a pretty weak one, that completely misses the point. We're talking about numbers here, (Tanaric even specifies it, "number-wise"). One grain of sand is insignificant; a thousand grains of sand merged together into a rock that threatens to smack you in the face if you don't pay attention to it is what's significant. Your importance may be the same as any other member of the community, but not the same as the clout of all the other members of the community together. 50 users that say Nay vs 30,713 users that say Aye, which do you think has more weight? Bingo. --Dirigible 10:15, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Ummmm, I suppose I'll state the obvious, if the people who oppose the build wipe are insignificant, doesn't that mean that the people who support it are even more insignificant?
 * To LordBiro, the people who think the build section is never returning in "any" form are essentially right, because they feel that NOB is not a true build section, and as mentioned in my comment above, Tanaric has specified that he will dismiss any plan that involves voting.
 * To Auron, I never claimed the ratio was 2:1, all I was pointing out was that there is significant opposition. Almost 100 poll responses may be numerically insignificant compared to site traffic numbers, but it is the largest opinion poll I've seen on the wiki.  And its a bit unrealistic of Tanaric to expect 500 emails.  Most of those 10,000 visitors don't even know who he is, wouldn't even realize that a feature exists to email an admin, or don't use the site often enough to care.  And as AnticDevices stated above, what would be the point in emailing him?  I haven't, and neither has anyone else opposed to the wipe.  The numbers reflected in the poll above are more significant than Tanaric estimates, as it is representative of the members of the guildwiki community who are involved enough to express their opinion.  It may not be a landslide but the opposition is greater than the support and I feel that should be recognized. -- BrianG 10:22, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
 * (Edit conflict with BrianG) Well, I don't think the numbers are so hard and fast as you make it appear Dirigible. While there may only be 50 users who say nay, that does not mean that every other user is saying aye. An enormous percentage of wiki users are still probably unaware of the build wipe or at least the specifics of the build wipe. A lot of wiki users aren't involved in policy or haven't made up their mind. I am sure many believe that they simply can't effect the system or don't understand how policy works. Maybe they haven't looked at this talkpage. While only 50 users vehemently disagree with the wipe, that does not necessarily say anything about the number of users who wholeheartedly agree, which, if we are going simply by the above poll is actually less. I am not saying either side is wrong on this count, merely that trying to quantify who agrees with what without giving proper consideration to the fact that not everyone has an opinion or knows there is something to have an opinion about is not an accurate assessment.  [[Image:DE Sig Test 2.jpg|50x19px]]  *Defiant Elements*   +talk  10:25, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Exactly. Where are you getting this 30,000 number Dirigible? Its kind of ridiculous to assume that everyone who has not voiced their opinion is automatically in support of the build wipe. I know for a fact that some of my friends think the wipe is stupid but have never posted and aren't going to bother starting now, especially considering how "insignificant" their opinion would be. And I know some others who only use the wiki occasionally and probably haven't even noticed whats going on. -- BrianG 10:28, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Special:Statistics for the 30k. But don't worry too much about it, I didn't mean to imply that they all agree with the nuke. Was simply trying to show AnticDevices what Tanaric was talking about with that "insignificant". There's a difference between "insignificant, number-wise" and "insignificant, period". I don't even necessarily agree with numbers of those who agree and disagree with this being really an important factor at all, regardless of which side those numbers are on. But that's just me. :)
 * Defiant, if after two weeks of a huge red box on top of every page that says "BUILDS WIPE! CLICK HERE TO READ ABOUT IT!" there's still "An enormous percentage of wiki users are still probably unaware of the build wipe or at least the specifics of the build wipe", then I'd say that the builds wipe should be the least of the worries for those users. :P
 * Also, if you want to play the "lets take guesses about what the silent masses think" game, it might be worthwhile taking a look at the different forums. The GWO thread was confidently in support of the wipe. The TGH thread was a couple of "lolz, GuildWiki builds suck, who cares" and nothing more than that. The Guru thread was a mixed reaction, probably slightly more against the wipe (but once the reaction was very weak, only a handful of people total on both sides). So while the number may not be 30k, it may also not be as against the wipe as you think. But once again, I personally don't like head counts being used on either side for this. The decision should be based on whether it has merits or not, and nothing else. And I personally think it does. :) --Dirigible 11:04, 17 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Eh, Dirigible you do relise the term Masses is related to how one would decieve the "masses" using effective Propaganda. Are you saying that Tanaric is using propaganda to persuade the "masses" that the build is a good thing? Solus  [[Image:DiscipleSymbol2.jpg|19px]] 11:08, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Eh, Solus, do you realise that the term Build is related to how one would build a torture chamber where to torture the innocents. Are you saying that those supporting the Builds section are planning to build a torture chamber in their basements?
 * I'm sorry, but your argument made no sense to me. When I said "masses" I meant the definition of masses, "multitude: the common people generally". Not sure how you got to Tanaric deceiving the masses with propaganda from there. --Dirigible 11:27, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Three points: (1) I apologize for getting Tanaric’s name wrong. That was careless. (2) Dirigible, I disagree that we are talking about numbers here.  I am a person, not a number. Neither is my opinion a number; my opinions are an expression of my thoughts and beliefs.  I do not particularly appreciate having my thoughts and beliefs treated like a number or a grain of sand.  That seems dismissive and disrespectful.  But I can live with it.  More to the point, my issue when I suggested that Tanaric should not say ‘opinions are insignificant’ is the context.  I would not suggest to my daughter that her opinions are insignificant.  I would not suggest to my employees that their opinions are insignificant.  I was trying to gently suggest to Tanaric, an Admin, that it is inappropriate for a person in power to tell others that their opinions are insignificant – even if their opinions are not popular.  Perhaps especially if their opinions are not popular (/numerically superior).  I allowed that this may not be what Tanaric meant, but it is what he said.  I think we can all agree that just because an opinion isn’t popular doesn’t mean that it isn’t good.  Popularity is only one measure of value.  (3) The other (and more important) thing is that Tanaric’s comment left me confused.  Ok, Tanaric dismisses the value of dissenting opinions on this page.  He suggests – at least I read it as a suggestion – that a personal email to him is a more valid way of expressing dissent.  Why should that be?  Tanaric also said (I think) something about anonymous users erroneously editing random articles as a good way to express your dissent – and that left me especially baffled.  Dirigible also suggests that we should look at other forums to gauge the popularity of the Build Wipe policy.  Again, why should I believe that my opinion on a thread on Guru would carry more weight than my opinion on this talk page?  Where is the proper place to register my opinion?  Why would Tanaric suggest that this page isn’t the place? -- AnticDevices 13:47, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm not speaking for Tanaric, but I'll answer your question. It takes a hell of a lot more work to e-mail Tanaric, and a hell of a lot *more* to make it worth reading. It's easy to click "edit" and start bitching on this page. So, you're asking why Tanaric would spend more energy listening to someone who cared enough to take the time to track down his e-mail and send it, as opposed to someone who doesn't have the slightest idea who Tanaric is or what he does on the wiki? -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 13:58, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
 * But my point was that people shouldn't have to know who Tanaric is and know how to email him to be able to express their opinion on this issue. Hence this page.  It is completely unrealistic for Tanaric to set the bar for when he would reconsider his opinion at 500 personal emails.  Besides, Tanaric has already expressed his bias against original builds on the wiki, so I think its a lot more productive to express opinions here, compared to emailing someone who has already stated that it would take 500 emails to even make him reconsider.  Sounds like a waste of time to me. -- BrianG 14:06, 17 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Auron, thank you for taking the time to write back. In response to a hell of a lot more work to e-mail Tanaric, I disagree.  It’s more work, but not a hell of a lot.  Just a little more work.  Tanaric has his email address on his userpage.  You just have to click his name.  I agree with BrianG that it seems …inappropriate… that dissenting opinions should have to work harder – go through a different process –  in order to be considered valid.  It sends the message right up front that our opinion is less valuable; it must clear more hurdles in order to be ‘worthy’.  Speaking of, in regards to and a hell of a lot *more* to make it work reading – Ouch.  Not only do I have to go through a different process, but I’d better make sure my arguments are extra specially well-written.  Creating different standards and setting the bar higher for minorities is …you know… not nice (to put it gently).  And Tanaric has clearly expressed his belief that the dissenters are the minority.   Finally, yes, I am seriously asking why Tanaric would spend more energy listening to someone who cared enough to take the time to track down his email and send it.  A wiki is a community project.  Taking public policy to private emails with an Admin seems elitist and exclusive.  If he’s going to give more weight to private communication, that has the appearance of violating the community spirit of the project; it has the appearance of deals done behind closed doors.  (NOTE: I am not suggesting that Tanaric is elitist, exclusive, or making deals behind back doors.  As someone who happily has no idea who Tanaric is or what he does on the wiki (and doesn’t feel that they should have to) the only characterization of Tanaric I believe I’ve made is that 'nearly insignificant' is a poor choice of words and the whole email thing confuses me.) -- AnticDevices 15:52, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
 * The e-mail req was not pulled out of nowhere. Over the past year or more, people have sent e-mails to Tanaric expressing their concern about the build section (quality concerns, NPA concerns, concerns in general); that's been done. The dissenters aren't required to do more work than the pro-wipe crowd, but it would be nice if they (at least) tried to do as much. That's (probably) the main reason for the e-mail comment. Don't forget, however, that he adds "Had a bunch of random, anonymous users erroneously edited random articles to complain," etc etc, meaning that if he saw the opposition in more ways than merely email, he'd (probably) be more convinced. But keep in mind... I'm not Tanaric, so I could be 100% wrong on that :P (hence my heavy use of parentheses). -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 16:09, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Oh cool, thanks Auron (not Tanaric), I didn’t know that. Of course, I don't think there could be any way I could know about emails other people sent, so I guess no surprise.  That's kind of the problem with private emails discussing public policy:  It makes it hard to respond in a timely manner to arguments when you don't get to see them while it's happening.  Not that I ever would have found this page if there wasn’t a big red label on the Main Page.  Until something got on the Main Page, I never even knew there was an issue.  At least now I know to add the Policies page to my watchlist. -- AnticDevices 16:54, 17 April 2007 (CDT)


 * You're taking things out of context, and I'm not too happy about that. "Dirigible also suggests that we should look at other forums [ instead of here] to gauge the popularity of the Build Wipe policy." I never neither said nor implied anything of the kind. Please go back and read where I wrote that; it was in a context of "how can we determine how popular the Build wipe policy is with the silent multitudes" (id est with those that haven't posted here, which is neither you nor me). And as for the Numbers vs Soundness of Opinion issue, while I personally agree with you that one voice behind a good argument should be stronger than a hundred voices behind a weak one, it still remains that there is sense in doing what's best for the majority of the users. I don't think they are even necessarily mutually exclusive, that lone guy may very well be more aware of what's best for that majority of the users than they are (I do realise that this is an unpopular point of view, but I personally do identify with it, even in MeatSpace). --Dirigible 14:26, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Dirigible, sorry to have made you unhappy. If I didn’t pick up on the emphasis on 'the silent majority' (which seems to be the difference between my characterization of your statement and your actual statement), it’s probably because 'the silent majority' isn't my issue.  My issue is the vocal minority - or more explicitly, the vocal dissenting minority.  I registered my opinion here, and if I understand Tanaric correctly, this isn't the appropriate place to do it.  To my eye, registering dissent via email seems as illogical as a thread on Guru; both are examples raised on this page of other places to mention your opinion.  Other than that tangential (out-of-context) allusion to your point, my emphasis really was Where is the appropriate place to register my opinion? and I agree I shouldn’t have characterized your comment as sloppily as I did.  Thanks for giving me the opportunity to make explicit the tenuous relationship between what you said and my use of it. -- AnticDevices 15:54, 17 April 2007 (CDT)

Firstly, let me apologize for allowing the conception of "Tanaric thinks anti–builds wipe contributors are insignificant" to be inferred. This is not at all what I intended to express. Every voice on the wiki is valued. I'm filled with pride that so many people are saying anything about this, whether their thoughts be pro– or anti–builds wipe. I had hoped that tossing numbers-wise in my statement would be sufficient, but clearly it wasn't. I'll be a bit more verbose now, aiming to clear up any confusion on my stance. As always, if I can further clarify based on your responses, I'll do so.

Most editors I know and respect, including some who don't agree with the builds wipe, have at the very least decided that it's not so bad and have instead turned their efforts to making sure a new policy exists post-wipe. Editors I don't know&mdash;who are still valuable&mdash;have expressed a mix of dissent and support. Those dissenting have generally provided one of the two reasons below (or none at all):


 * 1) "More contributors are against it than for it." This is one of the more common complaints. Right now, vocal contributors are more or less evenly split about the builds wipe. There's no clear winner based simply on vocality. There's no clear majority.
 * (However, even if there were a clear majority, GW:YAV does not imply democracy, or at least, it did not intend to when I initially penned it. As always, we come to decisions via discussion and rationality. Even though consensus isn't required for this decision, being the only administrative decision on content I can think of, I'm still attempting to garner something close to it before its implemented. Our decision making process is one of our strongest advantages over other fansites, and it is only with great regret that I so flagrantly bypass it for this wipe.)
 * 1) "The wipe isn't necessary/The builds section is good enough." Simply stated, I disagree. So do most (all?) of my administrators. So do many (most?) of our older editors. We've provided a plethora of arguments supporting why we believe as we do. Very few rebuttals have been made, and those few that were given were not convincing. It's relevant to note that, though many editors on these talk pages have been converted from anti–builds wipe to pro–builds wipe, unless I missed somebody, the opposite has yet to occur. This leads me to believe that the pro- camp has a better body of logic for its standpoint.
 * (However, if somebody makes an argument that convinces me this is a bad idea, I'll delete the notice from every page it's currently on right now. I have no problem changing my mind&mdash;come May 1, I'll do whatever appears best for the wiki, and right now that's the builds wipe.)

Both of these arguments have failed to convince me that the builds wipe is worth canceling. I had stated previously that, "if I receive 500 emails or something," I would cancel the builds wipe. Speaking more generally, "if I got a significant outcry, regardless of the reason, I would cancel the builds wipe." I referred to email because, during other controversial actions I was involved in on the wiki, I would often get multiple emails about them by random, anonymous users who wished to discuss things with me privately. This is why it's relevant to note that I have not gotten a single email about this. I am lead to believe that, in general, nobody really cares about our builds section, one way or the other. Experience from chatting with users in-game and with talking with Guild Wars players across my real-life community also support this conclusion.

In short, if 500 people had edited this page to complain, or 500 people had vandalized Build:Main Page, or if 500 people had emailed me, or any combination of the former occurred, I would seriously reconsider our current course. As it is, very few people have expressed an opinion one way or the other, so I am willing to press ahead with the builds wipe despite opposition from half/a slight majority of those few users who have vocalized their opinions.

&mdash;Tanaric 06:42, 18 April 2007 (CDT)


 * I don't fit into either of these categories. My complaint is not with the wipe itself.  I'm pretty ambivalent about that.  My complaint is with the way it is being handled.  Whatever usable information is currently in the builds section, regardless of how many or how few find it useful, is going to be completely obliterated.  I have seen no one give a sound, rational reason why the current build section can not be moved somewhere else in its entirety and locked.  Create a section somewhere called "Trashed Builds", move it over, and lock it.  Then the information will be as useful to those who currently find it so as it was while not in any way interfering with the new section.  Dividing it up into various user pages makes the information as useless as articles ripped out of an encyclopedia and scattered about your house.  Which seems to be the intent and raises another question...


 * There appears to be some hidden agenda involved in the execution of this builds wipe. Otherwise I see no reason why what I have proposed would not have been the default original plan.  It's how you would normally execute any kind of replacement activity.  It would remove the build section entirely, remove any and all arguments and name-calling, remove any issues with vetting/testing, and remove any and all administration associated with maintaining the build section.  All while preserving its usefulness.  Instead it just seems like a select few admins decided on some arbitrary policy based on personal biases and are ramming it down the community's throat.  Seems to me that actions like this will hurt the community and the wiki in the long run.


 * And as for lack of overwhelming response, I know of at least eight other people who are very much opposed to the wipe as it is being implemented who have not responded here and won't. Not because they don't care, but for the same reason that people don't fill out the customer survey cards in restaurants.  I personally don't know anyone for it as it is being implemented.  I see no reason to assume that just because only 50 or so people have responded negatively in the poll and fewer than a hundred overall that people largely don't care.  Both the positive and negative responses are just a sample of a larger population.  I suspect that the sample is fairly representative of overall opinion.  If you think that isn't the case, then let's put up notices to wipe other sections, say the Lore section or the Dye section, and see how much of an overwhelming response is generated over similar proposed wipes.  Are there statistics for how often those pages are hit or visited in comparison to the builds pages?  I'm betting not nearly as often.


 * Anyway, that's probably all I have to say on this matter. It's an annoying change, but I've got the current builds backed up on my PC for my own perusal.  And with an official Guild Wars wiki having recently come online, it's probably a moot point in the long run anyway. -- Aubee91 16:07, 18 April 2007 (CDT)


 * What Tanaric said about "I am lead to believe that, in general, nobody really cares about our builds section, one way or the other. Experience from chatting with users in-game and with talking with Guild Wars players across my real-life community also support this conclusion." I also agree.   I am not saying just the PvP community in general, but many of my friends who only play PvE don't really care about the builds section because they don't really use it.  They feel that the section is confusing, bloated, and contains many builds in tested section that are questionable.  In the past I've heard people say to go to wiki for a build but not really that much anymore.... especially for PvE because the common builds are known well enough that people in game such as members of a guild show them a good build.  I believe that the wipe and subsequent rebuilding of the builds section will bring more people who are not only skilled in the game, but can bring more rational discussions rather than a flaming match that have been occurring in the past. Thus in turn make the build section much better than it was before. --Lania Elderfire[[Image:Pinkribbonsig.gif|My Talk]] 09:44, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Lania, the examples you cite really don’t fit my experience. (1) I am a casual player.  As such, I can’t get into a populous, active guild because I’m not active enough to meet their activity requirements.  I don’t have the benefit of more knowledgeable guildies showing me common builds. (2)  I do use the builds section.  It is relevant to me.  Perhaps 'more fool me'.  But this site, including the imperfect builds section, is the best resource I’ve found to-date for one-stop GW info shopping. As a casual gamer using this site, I may very well be a minority.  This leaves me arguing that the loss to the minority (due to the build wipes policy) is greater than the benefit to the majority.  There is no earthly way I can make that argument on objective grounds, because there is no way I can measure the loss in objective terms.  I can only note that I will be inconvenienced by the loss, and that I honestly can’t quite credit the people who argue that they’re more inconvenienced by the existence of the builds section.  If they don’t like it, and it exists, they have the option of taking it or leaving it or improving it.  If I like it, and it doesn’t exist, I don’t.  As I understand it, build wipe proponents suggest that it will be much easier for me to find builds elsewhere than it will be for them to ignore or rebuild the current build section while a ‘broken’ build section still exists.  I can only respectfully disagree. -- AnticDevices 13:10, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Fully agree with that. I think the build wipe in the form planned now is neither necessary nor useful. I agree that the build section as it is now is not working very well, but it is still better than nothing. As a scientist I have an intrinsic aversion to deleting any data. If it's bad, outdated or badly organized, mark it as such, but keep it accessible. This is by the way one of the main points of a wiki, that everything can be edited but nothing ever gets lost.
 * As I understand it, the main reason for wiping the whole section, as opposed to moving it or marking it as bad/outdated, is that having the old section still accessible will hinder the development of a new and better organized build section. However, the old section will not completely disappear. It's just scattered around many user pages, offline harddrives, new wikis, whatever. This spoils the idea of starting from scratch, who wants to look at the old stuff when writing the new can and will do so. On the other hand, casual read-only users looking for a build will find it much harder to get an overview of what exists and will even more likely than now end up with something bad. So the wipe will have a negative effect on the near-term usability of the wiki, while in the long run it fails to have a positive effect on the development of a better section.
 * One more point: Some people have put quite some effort in archiving builds, discussing the wipe, checking out other fora etc. Imagine they had invested that time and energy in developing a better form of the build section instead... --Hhhippo 14:57, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Cool. Thank you Tanaric for taking the time to clear that up.  You provided a very thoughtful response, and I genuinely appreciate it. I, obviously, cannot argue from an editorial or administrative perspective.  Fwiw, as someone who does not think of themselves as an editor (either known, respected, old or none of the above) – but as a simple lazy consumer, my objection to the build wipe is that you are removing utility.  Yes, some day (hopefully soon!) there will be a new builds section which will provide some utility. If/when it exists - and a new build section is not guaranteed – it will not be the same utility.  I grant that the new utility may be greater than the current – if/when it comes into being.  But my point is that the policy replaces certain utility with… Hope.  Perhaps it is because I live in New Orleans, but seriously, I’ll take the bird in the hand, thanks, over the hopeful promises of our leaders/administrators.  Between now and May 1 I have something I can use.  Afterwards…. Maybe I’ll have something I can use.  I would like to register my preference, as a simple consumer, that as a general rule the site should maintain as much utility as possible.  In a way, I find it odd that this should be viewed as a minority perspective. -- AnticDevices 09:52, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I find I don't fit into the two classes of editors cited above by Tanaric. (Those who say "more contributors are against it than for it" and those who think "the wipe isn't necessary because the builds section is good enough".) My position is that the builds are useful even though the vetting process is disfunctional.  The builds highlight the interplay of skills.  Build discussions are enlightening because the comments of experienced users help many of us evaluate skill interrelationships and lead us to better decisions about what belongs on the skill bar.  Also, in contrast to Tanaric's point above ("nobody really cares about our builds section"), I do care what happens to the builds and I believe others (like the other 52 above) also care.  As I said above, I'm not confident that consensus will be developed to bring back original builds - and please note, at least 8 of those in favor of the wipe write that they are looking forward to the forthcoming reintroduction of builds.  Finally, I think that PvP players will be relatively satisfied with the posting of established ("observed") builds, and that a good number of those in favor of the wipe are focused on PvP play. &mdash;  Ali ( talk )  15:05, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I myself am not a focused PvP player. In fact I devote at least 70% of my time in GW on PvE rather than PvP. I believe that the new profession archetype guide will be a better replacement for PvE original builds because in PvE almost anything works.  A guide will give a good idea what kind of skill combinations work better than others rather than a mis-mash of unorganized builds where most of them basically aren't very effective.  I think people will be happier with the new PvE section as it will give a general outline as to what is good, and people can expand on it and create their own builds rather than copycatting the wiki.  I also believe that this will in time help many new players become better at PvE faster than just reading a bunch of random builds.  I am also a scientist and in response to Hhhippo, IMO the "data" in the builds section is not data, but more like an unmanageable accumulation of random opinions and argument rather than well tested and well discussed opinion.  I have saved my builds as they were ideas that I have tested myself, and the 2 builds I've submitted, have been vetted... and to me that is "data" that is at least meaningful to me if not useful.  But even then I didn't spend any money to make the build, only about 10 minutes to write it up.... and to my knowledge I don't know any protocol or assay in biology that I can do in 10 minutes that will give me nice clean results that I can use in a publication. --Lania Elderfire[[Image:Pinkribbonsig.gif|My Talk]] 22:52, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I agree that e.g. profession archetype guides are better than build lists. So they are a good reason to mark any build page bad/outdated, but not to delete it. If there's some wrong/bad/whatever part in any other page, it will be corrected, but everything stays in the history. Why handle builds differently?
 * Yes, the section is no good, publishable data, but do you throw away all your notes before writing a paper? I bet you do it afterwards, if at all. The equivalent here would be to wipe the builds section after something else was established. --Hhhippo 02:57, 19 April 2007 (CDT)

To those above who said "why not just lock the section down somewhere," I've addressed this comment over and over again. If you keep the old builds around in any official manner, any new builds policy must be written to address the "what the hell do we do with thousands of junk builds" question. I strongly suspect that requiring new policy proposals to deal with this issue will cause them all to deadlock, as they have for the previous year. Beyond that, even if they discover a solution to the old builds problem, whatever policy is written will inevitably look a lot like our old one, because changing it radically would require an unreal amount of work in sorting and updating all the old builds.

I strongly believe that starting from scratch with a working policy isn't possible without physically wiping the builds. If we merely lock down the section, I believe we spell the death for builds on the wiki permanently. If we wipe the section, I believe a new builds section will eventually arise.

&mdash;Tanaric 02:07, 19 April 2007 (CDT)


 * I don't see why this "what to do with the old builds" policy can't be "ignore" instead of "wipe". Having them officially existent doesn't mean a policy has to address them, they could be officially disregarded. The only difference to the wipe would be that they would all move to one place, with little effort, legal credits, proper tags etc. After the wipe they don't exist less then they would after a move, it's just more effort for a more messy result.
 * But I don't see we will convince you, so maybe I should stop arguing about the wipe and start thinking about something new...or even play GW. --Hhhippo 03:11, 19 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Correct. Tanaric's statement that any new builds policy must be written to address the "what the hell do we do with thousands of junk builds" question is simply not based on any kind of rational evidence.  The simple truth is that nothing need be done with the old archived "junk builds."  They would be in an archive.  Of junk.  And it could (should) be a temporary one at that.  Upon moving the current build section to a junk archive section and locking it a notice could then be posted that this junk archive will be completely removed some months after an official GuildWiki builds policy gets formulated.  Doesn't matter what the new builds policy is, just that once it is formulated and begun to be implemented, even the archive of the old build section will be removed.  Which shouldn't bother anyone as skill rebalances as well as new skills and builds that will have come about by then as a result of GW:EN would have slowly made the non-changing junk archive less and less useful and the new builds section (hopefully) very useful.  And much more accessible than the old dead archive.


 * A junk builds archive of this nature should have no affect whatsoever on whether a new builds policy gets formulated. It would be static and eventually useless.  There would never be any intent to update or merge it with some new build section.  It would just be there for historical reference.  The "deadlock" that Tanaric forsees is a fantasy, imo.  He's proposed no rationale for why this would occur.  There would be nothing over which to deadlock.  In fact, I feel confident that failing to archive the old builds section in some fashion similar to this just makes many people unwilling to even consider participating in the formulation or debate of a new builds policy as it doesn't appear that the process is being done in good faith.  One could easily assume that a new builds policy will ultimately be arbitrarily created and enforced by some select few admins in the same way that the wipe is being done anyway.     --  Aubee91 12:55, 19 April 2007 (CDT)


 * It took me awhile to realize this, but after reading all the replies, I think I've found the reason for the build wipe. Apparently, the builds section as it stands now is giving off some sort of psychic energy that disrupts the thoughts of the admins and policy makers. It seems as long as it's there, they cannot simply ignore the section or come up with an suitable replacement policy that disregards the current section, instead it's waves of energy permeates their minds and leaves them unable to focus clearly on anything but the current builds section. Once the section is wiped, their minds will be CLEAR ONCE MORE, and they will be able to come up with a new policy that everyone agrees on and will be happy with in a snap. It sounds absurd, I know, yet that's the line of reasoning that time and again is stated, so it must be the truth. DKS01


 * Don't be that hard. I think they thought a lot about it, even though I don't agree with their conclusions. The point isn't hiding the builds away from the admins, they will have a nice backup anyway. The point is hiding it away from potential contributors to a new section. But I believe that most of them also will have a backup of what they like, that's why the point doesn't score. --Hhhippo 06:07, 19 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Tanaric, thanks for explaining your position: "I strongly believe that starting from scratch with a working policy isn't possible without physically wiping the builds." I have seen you express this belief before, and I bet it must be tedious to have to have to keep repeating it.  I think that one reason you have to keep repeating it might be that beliefs can be pretty difficult to describe persuasively.  To the un-believer, 'strongly' held beliefs can sound like nonsense.  I have a suggestion that might help:  Can you give an example of a situation where your belief worked?  Is there a model you’re working from, an instance where all progress was prevented until the old was 'wiped' away? -- AnticDevices 07:54, 19 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Consider the analogy of how would one most effectively clean a room. Is it more effective to remove everything and put what you need back in? or just shuffle stuff around? --BeeD 23:15, 19 April 2007 (CDT)


 * I have nuked the untested section TWICE and has it just goes back to how it was before, getting steadily worse. The arguement sof move stuff around etc are null - its been done twice already. &mdash; Skuld 05:04, 20 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Oh, we're making arbitrary analogies, aren't we? Lets talk about the old cinema a couple of blocks south from where I live (70-80 year old, virtually unmaintained, that place was a shambles). When the new owner bought it and decided to build a small hotel where the cinema was, did he simply build on top of the crumbling walls and rotten foundations, or did he bring in the bulldozers, wiped the place clean and built it properly from scratch? Take a guess.
 * Arbitrary analogies go nowhere. --Dirigible 06:07, 20 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Skuld, Tanaric says that he believes if he wipes the Build section, something new and better will appear in its place. You experience contradicts that.  If I understand you, your experience is that wiping does not improve the situation – nothing better appears to replace the removed material. Dirigible, yes, arbitrary analogies go no where.  The difference between your example and Tanarics’ is that the guy who bulldozed the crumbling theater knew exactly what he wanted to replace it with.  As you describe it, he didn't bulldoze first and decide later (or during the bulldozing) whether to replace it with a hotel or a modern theater or whatever.  Tanaric’s belief, as stated, is that it will be the bulldozing itself that will produce the idea (“If we wipe the section, I believe a new builds section will eventually arise”).  Leaving aside the eventually issue, which bothers me, I can think of situations where wiping/bulldozing/nuking does not improve situations.  I can think of examples where that behavior makes the situation worse.  I can’t think of any situations where destruction/wipe was inherently the catalyst for something better – that sounds like very wishful thinking.  I think the preponderance of evidence does not support Tanaric’s belief.  But I will admit that I am biased, and perhaps not being imaginative enough.  A counter-example supporting his position would be very welcome. -- 24.252.81.251 08:00, 20 April 2007 (CDT)  (Edit:  This comment is mine.  -- AnticDevices 08:03, 20 April 2007 (CDT) )
 * The only time when bulldozing does not work is when the original is better than the replacement such as in cases with buildings with beautiful architecture that can't be duplicated. However in this case the original is like a rotting barn house infested with termites. I believe that the two frontrunning replacement policies, NOB, and Profession Archetype Guide are way better than what we have now. We already have a basic level of concencus on those replacement policies, and NOB and PAG will be merged eventually.  Skuld only mentioned that he wiped untested, but policy did not change and the rest of the builds section did not change.  In effect it was just an partial demolition.  --Lania Elderfire[[Image:Pinkribbonsig.gif|My Talk]] 11:45, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Lania, you believe that the current build section is rotting and infested. I disagree.  I see something that can stand renovation, but not in need of demolition.  Fortunately how bad the current site is isn’t what I’m asking about.  It’s the process; it’s the belief that wipe will lead inevitably to something better that I’m questioning.  If Dirigible had said, “This guy bulldozed this old theater.  Once it was down, the guy was inspired to put up an awesome hotel!” I would have to accept that as evidence for Tanaric’s theory.  If Skuld had said, “Every time I nuked the Untested section awesome builds appeared!” that would be ample and conclusive evidence.  If you tell me that you work best under a deadline, and you find having a (metaphorical!) gun to your head always inspires you to superlative effort, then I would have to accept that.  It would still be problematic, but at least it’s a model that supports Tanaric’s belief. As a counter-perspective, consider the truism that ‘failing to plan is planning to fail’.  You characterize NOB and PAG as having ‘a basic level of consensus’.  With respect, I believe that this point is reasonably debatable.  Regardless, it is fair to say that no policy is currently in place to replace the soon-to-be wiped section other than leaving it wiped until a plan appears.  We all hope a plan will emerge, soon, and that’s awesome.  But as we say here in New Orleans, ‘Hope is not a plan.’  I still see no evidence supporting Tanaric’s belief that wiping the build section will inevitably inspire the community to create something better.  I find that cause-and-effect logic to be dubious, at best.  Rather than applying analogy, please consider real-life examples where someone wiped/nuked/bulldozed/toppled something without a replacement in mind and yet inevitably something better sprang up.  I’m not sure it exists, and I think that counter-examples do exist.  If counter-examples to Tanaric’s belief do exist, shouldn’t this be submitted as evidence that the build wipe policy is built on a false premise? One final note:  I AM putting words in Tanaric’s mouth.  He doesn’t say that he believes that the new build section will be better than the current one.  “I believe a new builds section will eventually arise”, he says.  “New”, not ‘better’.  If the new section is only going to be as good as the current one, what’s the point of all of this?  This is why I’m reading ‘better’ into Tanaric’s belief.  Please correct me if I’m mistaken, and putting in a build policy just as good as the current one is an accpetable replacement.  If it's going to be better, how does wiping the current section inevitably produce it?  Where is that cause-and-effect model supported in the real world? (Edit:  Once again I forgot to properly sign my comment -- AnticDevices 13:15, 20 April 2007 (CDT) )

I agree with AnticDevices regarding the questionable premise that NOB is reaching consensus. Look at the opinion poll above. NOB is based on the elimination of original builds aka the builds wipe, and there is hardly consensus that this is the right direction to go in as shown by the opinion poll. Just as the people who think original builds can't work on the wiki prevented policy consensus on a new vetting system, people who think original builds can work on the wiki can prevent consensus on NOB. And currently, the only evidence we have of the size of each of these groups of people is the opinion poll above (which I point out again, is the largest opinion poll I've seen on the wiki, despite the insignificance of its size in comparison to site visitors). Unfortunately the NOB people happen to agree with and some are friends with the admins, so its hard to maintain an unbiased evaluation of "consensus". -- BrianG 14:27, 20 April 2007 (CDT)


 * To come back for a moment to the picture of the bulldozer: My main problem here is not who hired the guy with the bulldozer for what reason. My problem is that we're talking about bulldozing a library, not a theater. And I guess we have some kind of agreement that we don't want all the books to be destroyed. The books should be taken to some save place until the bulldozing is done and the architects have agreed on the design of a new library. At that point, we will decide, following the new library's policy, which books will return and under which label.
 * The main difference between pro- and contra-wipe positions is who will have access to the books while in the save place. Pro-wipe: Only the admins can enter the save place (the database backup), other users are free to xerox as many books as they can and put them in their private libraries. The quality of these copies is varying and the private libraries are not really organized. Contra-wipe: Everybody can find and read, but not edit the books in the save place (a locked part of the wiki). In both cases some of the books will get older and less useful during the time spent in the save place. That's a disadvantage of not having a replacement policy, but not a difference between a wipe and a move.
 * However, I said I would think about the future instead of lying in front of bulldozers, so see my post appearing below in a few minutes. --Hhhippo 16:19, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

I have an example of when wiping and starting over produces higher-quality content (in the long run) than continuing to work within a hobbled system. Check out the official Guild Wars Wiki. While it clearly doesn't have as much information as this place does, it doesn't have the horribly destructive editing policies (e.g., editor efficiency over user efficiency, anti-guild pages, template proliferation, vote culture, admins who can nuke entire sections with impunity) that have developed here, and it looks to me like it will be a better resource than GuildWiki in the coming months.

&mdash;Tanaric 16:30, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Tanaric, I see your point, but I’m not sure that’s a valid model. GWiki wasn't destroyed in order to create Guild Wars Wiki – nothing was destroyed/wiped in order to create the new Wiki.  Also, I rather suspect that they didn’t create that wiki and then hope that someone would come up with policies.  I suspect they had a good idea in mind of what they wanted when they created it.  That isn’t what’s happening with the build wipe policy; the build wipe policy is independent of coming up with anything to replace it the wipe and the replacement processes are unrelated. If anything, your example seems to demonstrate a belief that the problem here isn’t the builds section itself, but the editorial polices supporting the builds section.  This is a cultural issue.  If the problem is the underlying culture or policies, then any new build policy that sits on top of that is going to fail.  Why wipe the build section if the real problem is “horribly destructive editing policies”?  Wiping the build section won’t fix that. -- AnticDevices 13:37, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

Saving builds
On top it says that i can save some of the builds in my userspace. how do i do that? i want to keep some builds for future reference but i don't know how. thanks if you can help. 18:44, 17 April 2007 J1j2j3
 * gotta insert all the source from a build page to a new page for example mine would be like http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/User:Chrisworld/Warrior Build and youd insert that crap into that page from the build pages source and its be saved --Chrisworld 15:52, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Have a look here: GuildWiki_talk:Builds_wipe/Archive_3. In short, make sure you credit the authors and remove the tested and category tags! Many builds are copied to userspace already, see User:Auron_of_Neon/Archive_effort. --Hhhippo 17:12, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
 * A little script that automatically copies a page's history in a 'Credits' section can be found in my userspace: User:Funky King/Useful Stuff/History Copier --Funky King 12:36, 17 April 2007 (CDT)

For Anyone Who Disagrees With The Wipe
Anyone who is still interested in working on original builds, check out    *Defiant Elements*   +talk  00:20, 19 April 2007 (CDT)
 * That was supposed to be a closed beta test, not "advertise where everyone concerned will see it". --Armond Warblade (talk) 01:45, 19 April 2007 (CDT)
 * It was posted on a wiki page, there is nothing private about that (especially with the name that GCardinal decided to use for the page). --Rainith 12:06, 19 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Atm it's a "steaming pile of copyright violations." Hope we get that cleared up before too many people start contributing... -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 12:27, 19 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Considering the work Gcardinal put into getting this together on short notice, I'm really hoping he won't have to manually add credits to all of the builds. I don't know much about scripting, but can any of the tools that have been created for backing up build history here be used over there as well?  Such as Irkm Desmet or Funky King's scripts? -- BrianG 12:44, 19 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Don't know about Funky King's, but Irkm Desmet's can be used. You call it from a terminal, it gets the editors list from GuildWiki and prints it with wiki markup to the terminal. You can then copy and paste that output anywhere you like, including another wiki. If you want to do that under Windows, check my variant of the script. --Hhhippo 13:21, 19 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Lol, everything in that wiki is sooo breaking licenses. I suggest to fix it before it gets to a big big problem. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 13:38, 19 April 2007 (CDT)
 * There's now a message on the main page attributing nearly everything to this wiki. It's being cleared up as people speak, though I dunno if we have a lawyer there. --Armond Warblade (talk) 17:41, 19 April 2007 (CDT)
 * It doesn't work like that, attributing everything to this wiki is actually a false claim. This wiki doesn't have the copyrights on any of the materials here or those copied to the new site, it's the contributors who have posted those materials who still hold the copyrights. GuildWiki simply has been given permission to use them and redistribute them under the same license. Each article needs to give credit to each contributor, anything but that is copyright violation.
 * I'm disappointed that Gcardinal is being such a bad sport about this, he's trying to weasel out of giving credit to the community instead of making an honest effort to deal with this fairly and properly. --Dirigible 21:26, 19 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Dirigible, can you please calm down? Your comments are bordering on NPA.  Yes, thats right, you just basically called gcardinal a dishonest weasel, with no evidence that his intentions are dishonest in nature.  He has already stated that English is his very weak second language, so its possible that he hasn't interpreted the licence rules correctly, but that doesn't mean he is being dishonest or intentionally trying to weasel anybody.  He is in the process of appointing admins and this is one of the issues we can hopefully address in the coming days.  One solution we are discussing is creating a script that will pull the contributor names out of the history and include them on the build page.  Furthermore, if as you say, the copyrights belong to the individual contributors, isn't it their choice to decide how and when to enforce those copyrights?  (I'm not a lawyer so please correct me if this interpretation is incorrect).  I appreciate your efforts to inform him of the copyright issue, however I don't see you making an equal effort to enforce these rules across many of the backed up builds on this site that probably do not have proper attribution.  In fact, the issue of properly attributing those backed up builds was not even raised until some time after all the backing up got started.  If this wiki could handle temporary copyright violations without anyone filing suit, I'm sure the other one can as well.  I'm sure many contributors are willing to allow some time for this to be addressed if it means their contributions will be preserved instead of wiped.  Lets give the new site some time to address this issue before making attacks on gcardinal's character please. -- BrianG 11:30, 20 April 2007 (CDT)


 * To reply to BrianG directly, I believe Dirigible is correct in his interpretation. Users have agreed to license their contributions to be used by anyone who will do the following:


 * give them credit,
 * not use the contribution for commercial purposes,
 * ensure that any publications will reproduce the work with the same license.


 * Crediting GuildWiki for a build is akin to crediting google for a site found using their search engine. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 16:17, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * LordBiro, thanks for the clarification, that does make sense to me and I wasn't really attempting to dispute that. What I was asking for clarification on is when I said "if the copyrights belong to the individual contributors, isn't it their choice to decide how and when to enforce those copyrights?".  To use a much simplified example, if I was the sole creator of a guildwiki article, and someone used that article in a way that met all requirements except for attribution, but I did not care that my work was not attributed, would it be the guildwiki community's place to pursue this person for this copyright violation? Or would it be up to me? -- BrianG 16:44, 20 April 2007 (CDT)


 * BrianG, Cardinal "archived" my post on the other wiki within hours, trying to get it off the main page, I had to pull it out again myself so that others could read it. I directed the same worries about copyright to him even here on GuildWiki a couple of days ago, and his reply was "where'd you find out about the site". Cardinal has been anything but collaborative or eager to try and find a solution about this issue.


 * As far as the law is concerned, if you don't credit them, you're infringing copyright. By releasing them under a by-nc-sa license, the user has declared that they do care that they're given credit and that they do care what happens with their content. Practically, I doubt any GuildWars players would sue you over what they've posted on a fansite wiki, but would your ethics be alright with doing something like this? You're basically asking "can we get away with it"?


 * And here's why this needs to be dealt with as soon as possible: the longer those copyvio edits remain, the greater the problem on your hands becomes. If someone edits a copyvio article, not only it's still copyvio, but now it has "contaminated" your contribution as well (unless it's a sufficiently major rewrite of the material). Dealing with this issue should take priority over whether you want to have YAV and voting on builds for the new wiki, and it's the main reason why I've been pressing on this. This needs to be taken care of before everything else.


 * What Auron suggested, wiping everything and adding them bit by bit is a good way to deal with this. If you want to do it with a script, that'd work too, I guess. The third option is using the database dump that Tanaric promised to make available before the wipe happens, which would include the histories of the articles as well and would thus be ideal, if you could import it on the new site.


 * Bottom line is, no one said that forking part of the wiki into a new site would be an easy task. These are the easy problems too, the "technical" ones. It's only going to get worse before it gets better. :) --Dirigible 19:26, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * It's getting better already, actually. We're getting a history dump and attributing each article properly; as of now, I believe we're going to create subpages on each article with a GWiki history (and we're linking to each subpage from the article, of course). We're trying to do it right, Dirigible :P -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 20:35, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Dirigible, I have every intention of attempting to do whats right in this situation, and I was just asking a question about copyrights. I wasn't asking "can we get away with it", but "can we get away with it for a few days while it gets sorted out".  I'm sure cardinal asked you where you got the link from because he realized there were still issues to work out before the site is ready to go live, one of which is this copyright issue.  I also found out that he was a bit worried that the guildwiki admins would be less than co-operative about helping us extract the attribution data we need but luckily I think that has all been cleared up tonight as Auron described.  You do have to admit that it is a bit hypocritical that everyone is upset about his copyright violations when copyright violations are rampant in the guildwiki userspace at the moment, due to a sudden decision to wipe everything, and no proper backup plan in place.  Its obvious that the lack of attribution on the new site is due to technical concerns and not malicious intent, the same technical concerns which are ongoing here. -- BrianG 00:47, 21 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Copyrights is one of the first things we're addressing, I assure you. The trick is how - if I can help it I'd rather not go through special:allpages and put custom-made notices on every page. --Armond Warblade (talk) 14:56, 20 April 2007 (CDT)


 * I appreciate your attention to the issue of copyright, but you don't get to violate it first with the intention to fix it later. If content exists on the buildwiki that is improperly attributed -- and my brief browsing through leads me to believe that plenty of this sort of content exists -- your responsibility is to immediately remove it. You can repost GuildWiki articles once you figure out how you intend to do so with proper attribution.


 * In most cases, when people copy GuildWiki articles, we allow them to simply link to our existing articles and reference our history. Since the articles you're copying are going to be deleted, this is clearly not an option.


 * Especially considering that the main page talk is continually wiped, and that "GCardinal" has stated there that "no copyright issue exists," I insist that you remove all copied builds that currently violate our license agreement.


 * &mdash;Tanaric 01:38, 21 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Tanaric, yes I think gcardinal misunderstood the copyright issue, but its been clarified and the problem has now been resolved. The full article history has been copied over.  Meanwhile, copyright violations are all over the place on this wiki, and you have known about it since April 2nd.  And as you mentioned on User talk:Krowman:
 * "As for user buildspaces, I (and hopefully other admins) will spotcheck copied builds to make sure the users are including historical information."
 * I've looked around and haven't seen many attributions on the many builds backed up all over the wiki. It seems awfully hyporcritical to claim that other people have a responsibility to "immediately remove it", while you have had over 2 weeks to clean up the mess on your own wiki and still don't seem to be making much progress. -- BrianG 01:09, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

I said this on DE's Page, but with GW:PYB, we don't really need this....--Nog64Talk 17:48, 19 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Sorry, but this sounds MUCH better than PYB. DKS01 18:09, 19 April 2007 (CDT)

There is no copyright violation here as long as the content on the PvXwiki is licensed under the cc by-nc-sa 2.0 license. Which it currently is not (as far as I can tell), so as soon as that is changed there will be no problem. --Delia Rashesh (talk) 02:56, 23 April 2007 (CDT)

Um, guys, Special:Export. That would save you half the work. Any Sysop over on PvXWiki can import a page exported from here, with full history and attribution intact. The other half of the work is making sure PvXWiki is under CC BY-NC-SA 2.0. -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 05:47, 24 April 2007 (CDT)
 * PanSola, the full history for all builds has been exported from here and imported to PvXWiki, and I believe PvXWiki is licenced under CC BY-NC-SA 2.0. As far as I'm aware the issue is now resolved. -- BrianG 10:29, 24 April 2007 (CDT)

Categorise user's pages of saved builds
I sugsest we add this texte in our personnal pages of saved builds :  so that all user pages containing saved builds will be listed in Category:Builds save page--Ttibot 20:12, 20 April 2007 (CDT)

A post-wipe dream
I'm not sure if this is the right place, but I'd like to draw your attention to User:Hhhippo/BuildSearchEngine. It's not really a policy suggestion but a bit more complicated, and maybe some effort to implement. I think it might be a way towards a compromise between at least a few of the many opinions around here. Anyway, have a look if you like, and leave a comment. --Hhhippo 16:29, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

Back to the Copyright Stuff
I don't post many things on the site. I mostly use it for reference, but I am a part of that "silent mass" that everyone seems to be talking about. I am not happy with the decision, but I guess I will try to go with the flow. But to what I wanted to know, is that since you are deleting the original build page, and everything that links to it, wouldn't you therefor be deleting the copyright, since what the copyright was for doesn't exist anymore. I was trying to think of something that would pertain to this, like a book or something, but this seems to be a unique situation. Maybe I just didn't read something, but from one of the people who doesn't post much on here, I'm sure there are at least a few people on here wondering the same thing. One more thing, just because people don't voice their opinions, doesn't mean that all of them agree with what most of the ones who do voice them say. Bluemilkman 19:00, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
 * For the copyright issue, Tanaric & I discussed it a bit on my talk page here. Hope that is useful to you. - [[Image:Candle.jpg|12px]] Krowman (talk • contribs) 19:18, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
 * In short, while we are allowed to present information by our contributors in the manner specified by our Creative Commons license, we are under no obligation whatsoever to continue to present it. We can remove anything at any time. &mdash;Tanaric 21:55, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

actually, whoever gave that talk page answered my question better. I will ask another however, which might end up being a rhetorical question: How many people are actually going to search out everyone who copied their build and sue them for copyright infringement or whatever. I'm not trying to say it's right, and I'm going to go fix mine now, but still...

and I always forget to sign my posts. Bluemilkman 23:55, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

SO ANNOYING
WHEN YOU ARCHIVE A BUILD IN YOUR OWN NAME SPACE REMOVE THE VETTED TAG B/C IT JUST FLOODS THIS PLACE WITH BUILDS. IT IS VERY ANNOYING TO SEE ALL THE USER SPACE BUILDS FLOODED INTO THE VETTED AREAS. ALSO PUTTING YOUR ARCHIVED BUILDS IN THERE MIGHT GET THEM DELETED (???) Echo ftw 18:23, 22 April 2007 (CDT)


 * I stand up to support this, though without the Caps Lock. --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]]   18:27, 22 April 2007 (CDT)


 * chill &mdash; Skuld 18:28, 22 April 2007 (CDT)
 * yea sorry bout caps, but it really pisses me off Echo ftw 18:31, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

Return of the Build-i
In some sense, this builds wipe isn't doing jack. Most builds are archived (as well as many of the builds which I think are poor/inaccurate builds) and if the new vetting policy allows community contributions, there's going to be huge flurry of all the old builds. If the vetting procedure isn't stiff or well refined, most of those builds will come back simply because "it was vetted before." Of course it would be very nazi to wipe all builds period; regardless of a wipe or not, there's going to be some awful builds stagnant around the wiki. --8765 23:18, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Or we could do away with the vetting procedure entirely... - [[Image:Candle.jpg|12px]] Krowman (talk • contribs) 01:56, 24 April 2007 (CDT)
 * If it's not available to the community for contributing and whatnot, then it hardly belongs on the wiki. If the community is allowed to post builds (or even suggestions and such), there will still be a slew of bad builds and rage venting, no matter what kind of new procedure comes up. --8765 18:45, 24 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Bad builds and venting aside, a equality-based voting sytem to determine the quality and validity of builds has been proven to be ineffective. It gives an unexperienced user's opinion the same weight as that of a more skilled player, it is easy to get a number of your buds together and get a build vetted, it can get builds vetted without prior testing (even if we made testing mandatory, it would be impossible to prove that some one tested a build adequately), it gives users a snese of pride and authorship in their build article (resulting in all the immature insults and personal attacks), and basically results in many bad builds getting vetted and a number of good builds getting unfavored. Our vetting procedure has hurt the wiki to the point where it no longer gives good advice to those who seek it. GW:NOB is a pretty good post-wipe policy; it limits the wiki to publishing popular or already-deemed-successful builds (no vetting procedure!), while allowing those who want to create and post their own builds to do so within the user space. - [[Image:Candle.jpg|12px]] Krowman (talk • contribs)  18:57, 24 April 2007 (CDT)

Why didn't we just let ppl move the articles?
The Recent Changes has been FLOODED by edits in the User talk space lately, due to a race to preserve builds. Why didn't we just let them move the articles from the build space to their own user space, which:
 * 1) preserves the entire history AND talk of the article, in case that build never returns after the new policy is set
 * 2) makes it very obviously which builds have been "saved" by users
 * 3) prevents the creation of a ton of "new" clone articles, plus a bunch of edits to the clones to credit the past contributors of the original articles.

-User:PanSola (talk to the ) 05:41, 24 April 2007 (CDT)
 * People can do whatever they like with pages in their user space. If they wanted, they could edit the article, and render it completely nonsensical. Since we would have moved it instead of making copies, the only version of the article we would have would be one that is a very poor representation of the build. - [[Image:Candle.jpg|12px]] Krowman (talk • contribs) 18:48, 24 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I don't think it matters how it's saved. Chances are, the build is going to come back in it's horrendous glory. And it'll bring friends... --8765 18:53, 24 April 2007 (CDT)
 * It (and its friends) will only come back back if we allow it to under a new policy. - [[Image:Candle.jpg|12px]] Krowman (talk • contribs) 18:59, 24 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Whether they stick around, that depends on the new procedure. They'll still show up and they'll bring a 12-pack of noob rage. Regardless, no new policy is going to solve all problems, if not bring its own problems. --8765 19:04, 24 April 2007 (CDT)


 * I agree with PanSola, it would have made a lot more sense if we had created a system where we move builds. I don't think it's too late for that, but the system of moving builds would have to be more defined, i.e. the author of a build gets first choice to move it to their user space. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 07:47, 25 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Say I'm Joe User. I like Build:R/D VoS Archer, but Windjammer is the author. Basically, Windjammer can Move the build to his namespace, but I have to copy the history or list the contributors by hand? -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 07:50, 25 April 2007 (CDT)
 * (I agree with PanSola as well, actually, I'm just playing devil's advocate). -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 07:50, 25 April 2007 (CDT)

Build Voting Process Needs an Overhaul Too
I'm not certain if this has be brought up before, but I believe the process and underlying policies concerning how a build is voted on needs reexamination. Given that the builds section will be wiped and rewritten, this is an excellent opportunity to establish a standard for the vetting process. As it stands now, there doesn't seem to be any push for consistency when voting on builds. Some people simply sign their name. Some people simply type "lol." Few people bother to provide an explanation for their vote, and fewer still bother to reconsider and recast their vote once changes have been made to the proposed build. My biggest complaint that speaks to the ineffectiveness of the current voting system, is that builds are frequently voted on by the same handful of users, which is by no means indicative of community consensus. Some users choose to spend most of their Wiki time voting on builds - which is fine - but we shouldn't be vetting builds based soley on the votes of those regular voters. On several occasions, I have made notes on users' pages asking that they try to be more objective when evaluating a build, rather than voting according to their subjective, personal preferences. "I don't like Monks" or "Paragons suck" are not an acceptable reasons for voting down a build that is otherwise quite effective.--Ninjatek 11:04, 25 April 2007 (CDT)