Forum talk:Community Outlook- Wikia's "New Look"

Dunno, perhaps we should use the talkpage for comments? Idk. &mdash; Warw/Wick 17:52, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It's been boiling up - but I'm suppressing the rant atm Random Time 17:53, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm.. How about we move all articles into userspace, so it doesnt disrupt page content? For instance, User:Main Page, User:Cleave, User:Template:Cleave... :p &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 18:13, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * lol, sounds like a plan xD--[[Image:Cobalt6.jpg|50x19px]] - (Talk /Contribs ) 19:10, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikia's "New Style"
I do not know if any of you are yet aware of this or not, but Wikia is planning to add a new required skin to all Wikia wikis. The article on this is located here. The new skin will cause ads to appear in the middle of articles and thus disrupting content. This could be very bad for GuildWiki as it has the possiblity to drive off editors who simiply do not want ads in the actual content. There is a discussion going on here in which the community it discussing the "New Style". How will this affect GuildWiki? What should we do to try and keep editors interested? We need ideas and discussion. -- Shadowphoenix  06:32, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Umm @#$% wikia we didn't want to come under their control in the first place, all I have to say about it.--[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 06:35, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe, but we can't simply ignore this as it affects us as well. -- Shadowphoenix  06:39, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, I went and ranted on the "discussion" page.--[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 06:49, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Logged in users should still be able to use Monobook. So this primarily impacts anon users, and logged-in users who has grown accustomed to the features offered by Monaco. If you are currently using Monobook, hold your fire until Wikia announces they are going to remove Monobook from the user's choice of skin. Anons, and ppl who are currently using Monaco, carry on with the discussion d-: -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 06:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Just want to reinforce PanSola's note about logged-in users - there are no plans to remove Monobook from the options for logged in users. The update of Monaco will result in a Monaco skin on GuildWiki that looks more than ever like Monobook, but with the added features. Kirkburn (talk) 19:01, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, except for some odd reason the monobook skin on the official wikia wiki, looks like @#$%ing monoco. I dont always log in either to view the site... God knows what will happen...--[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 06:57, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Looking at our license (see bottom of every page for link), using these big ads on GuildWiki at all seems to me to be a license breach (GFDL is fine with that). I can tolerate the google ads in the side bar as they hopefully cover operating expenses, more or less, but delivering ads like the commercial websites do deserves leagl scrutiny. --mendel 09:04, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Can't we set the standard skin for anyone to Monobook? Should be possible... No? --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  09:08, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * We lost our ability to set standard skins when we someone sold our souls to Wikia. Alarming change, although unfortunately, not a bunch we can do about it. - Auron 13:44, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I am now extremely angry with wikia Random Time 15:49, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The good news is that (in theory) when they see how the format screws everything up, they will hopefully have the good grace to admit it was a mistake and undo it.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]]Entrea  [Talk]  16:25, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * That relies on the assumption that Wikia realises its mistakes. -- Dr R. Phalange 16:26, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * What makes me laugh is the "more article area" argument. Yeah, with a big add like that you'll have WAY more area... but not article area. Advertising area yes, but not article area. Also, forcing Monaco is a terrible idea. IDK why are they so persistent on forcing it on everyone. I tried Monaco personally, but cot annoyed by the big and unneeded sidebar, and the fact that I couldn't find the discussion pages for quite a while (I found it later... about 1000 pixels away from the place I thought it should be). And the thing that really made me laugh is the "increased traffic" argument. They can't be serious about it... Adds don't concern me personally, since it was a long time since I saw one anywhere and will continue to use Monobook, but I am concerned about random users coming to the wiki. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 18:31, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

This will be the final blow to those who were hanging in there and not moving to the official wiki... How many people do you think will stay here after the style change? Triple digits is my guess... I really don't think Wikia realizes that it has a competitor on this one... RoseOfKali 18:44, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I doubt hardly anyone will stay. --[[Image:Hellbringer newer sig.jpg]]t a l k 18:48, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

have the admin skin/default skin be monobook. it would be foolish on wikias part to carry out an action which would drive traffic away from the site. 162.84.143.170 19:42, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * "it would be foolish on wikias part" -- Dude, stop giving them reasons to do it, they like being foolish. -- Dr R. Phalange 19:44, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * well why dont you stop qqing the corner and take it to the wikia notice board. even if they dont apply it to the entire wiki, point out that changing things may tread close to violations of guildwiki's unique licensing. their advertisers can get over the fact that we don't use their gay skins. if hundreds of anons come in and sign a petition qqing about it, what are they gonna do, force them to leave? stop treating them like evil guys who are just trying to fuck us over and mount a protest. DAMN 162.84.143.170 19:50, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

"When wikis have switched from Monobook to Monaco, they've seen huge jumps in the number of readers, contributors and user logins." I lol'd. The users probably logged in more so they could change their skin. The only thing that really affects me (since I'm always logged in) are the ads. It says there will only be 1 ad for logged in members. Where will it be placed in Monobook? I would prefer a banner ad across the very bottom... where it is now. Since they're only talking about Monaco, I hope Monobook will remain exactly the same. --Macros 20:27, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Monobook probably won't be touched, so nothing will change. The problem is the add will be viseable in the (forced on us) new default skin that is Monaco. The add will be in the place we currently have infoboxes for skills, locations, monsters, items... everything. You'll have to scroll down on practicly every page to see the infobox... Not to mention that it'll probably preak our main page.
 * Since Wikia will be monitoring trafic following a week after the change, can we issue a strike? I'm serious here, do our admins have the power to temporarely block the database so we;'ll have an edit cout of 0? &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 23:49, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * If it is blocked by an admin, it will mean nothing. The no-edit strike has to be voluntary.  All we gotta do is advertise it so that more people see it and know about it.  When are they implementing this so that I know not to edit or visit?  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 01:17, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You know what? Who cares? I'm sure our css/js wizards will whip up something we can use to fix the site pretty quick. You know what happened when they screwed up Monobook with the migration, it was fixed almost instantly. When this goes live, it'll probably be a few hours tops before someone "customizes" Monaco to the point it won't screw over our pages.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]]Entrea  [Talk]  01:48, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, if we can't fix it, we're in trouble. Using the masterful technique of adding a 250x300px image to the top-right, I have recreated the effect of ads on an average skillpage: <font color="#4682b4">Entrea  <font color="#4682b4">[Talk]  02:14, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The only way it could be "fixed" to satisfaction is by removing the idiotic in page adds, which is against wikias all might TOS. Needless to say, GWW will grow quite a bit.--[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 02:17, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You forgot to put a Snickers (TM) commercial on that Golem. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 02:41, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

If the new advertisement style is implemented in full, how likely are you to move to the Official GWWiki? 3 - 100%, I'm fed up with Wikia! 2 - Seriously considering it... 1 - I'll tough it out! 0 - Whatever, I don't give a @#$%... RoseOfKali 06:19, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I didn't mind moving to wikia, I don't even mind the present ads. I was mildly pissed off that my username was changed despite no active user with my name here. I figured, I'd stay because the articles just look and flow so much better here, not to mention the people I see around here. If they put ads in the way currently proposed then I will be gone. Oh I doubt I could be bothered to give GWW a chance, but I wouldn't be here. <font color=#555>Ezekiel <font color=#AAA> [Talk]  06:35, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd doubt I'd go to GWW, it still sucks worse then guildwiki stuffed with ads, but I doubt I would continue here, whats the point of helpinga wikia that looks like a billboard to the average visiting GW player?--[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 07:09, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * As an admin here, I would deal with the change one way or another, and stick around.
 * As an editor, I suppose I would scoot over to GWW. I'm already an editor there, the unwieldy policies there don't actually cause much damage, and the fact that it's ArenaNet-owned means we don't have to deal with any crap overflowing from non-Guild Wars stuff.
 * Given the choice of making Wikia more money with their silly advertisement spree, or making ArenaNet a bit of money from the few ads on GWW, I'd rather support the company that runs the game I'm in love with... --[[image:GEO-logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  09:03, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Let's wait and see what the changes will actually consist of before we get upset. Quizzical 09:14, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Wikia's already done a lot of annoying things, and we're all still here, so yeh, best to complain after the fact. :D --[[image:GEO-logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  09:44, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Here's an interesting comment from one of the Wikia staff people that I thought was worth quoting. I'd read it as saying those who don't use Monaco won't have any changes except possibly for a new ad on the main page--and that those who do use Monaco and object to the changes can switch to a different skin.
 * "We've made the choice in this case to show more ads to anonymous users than to logged-in users for precisely that reason. About 95% of Wikia's readers are anonymous readers. 5% of the people here are creating the content that the other 95% read. We know that ads are annoying and distracting, especially when you're trying to write. So we're only showing one ad to logged-in users, and we're not showing any ads on the "content-producing" pages -- talk pages, edit pages, etc. We also know that the 5% of people who contribute don't click on ads much anyway, and often block the ads. That's okay, from a revenue point of view. The 5% are doing more than their share, by writing all the content and building the communities. But somebody's got to pay for the site to keep running, and that has to be the 95%."
 * So basically, the changes will be more ads shown to the people who don't register and log in. And to that, I say, so what?  Quizzical 04:01, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * That's extremely selfish, I was under the impression that guild wiki exists so GW players can come and reference our info.--[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 04:18, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * So basically, if someone is bothered by the ads, he can register and log in to get things back to how they are now. And if someone doesn't mind the ads, why should you step in and be upset in his place?  What's so bad about a system that shows the ads to precisely the people who aren't annoyed by them?  Quizzical 04:41, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * ...Aside from the fact that to remove all ads and their effects you have be knowledged in the way wikis work, there is no reason that a patron would have to create a account just to view the site without looking at a advertisement for pop tarts on the page for a elite dungeon.--[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 04:51, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Well then, if you think there shouldn't be any advertisements on the wiki, how do you think hosting the servers ought to be paid for? Quizzical 05:18, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Donations, the banner ads on the bottom, the stuff that has worked before. Not a pic of a box of poptarts where a skill box should be.--[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 05:20, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * In other words, just keep on doing the stuff that isn't working now, and hope it magically starts working? Quizzical 05:23, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't believe for a second that wikia needs more hosting funds, and if they do they don't deserve to be a host with their shitty service and horrible community relations. Had the original host actualy given us a choice of hosts rather then selling it to wikia then we would not be in the mess and could of found our own non destructive way of keeping guildwiki up...--[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 05:27, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Quizzical; if Wikia has nearly a quarter million dollars to buy wikis, I'm fairly certain they don't need any cash. I'm surprised nobody's brought up how this might be violating site policy, because the income will most likely be paying off wikia staff instead of going to hosting costs.
 * I'm with Alari; they don't need money, they just want money. And throwing ads in the middle of a page is a piss-poor way to treat a new wiki on the network. - Auron 06:41, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Well then, now that they've actually posted a test site where we can see how it works, let's have a look: []
 * I clicked on a bunch of random pages. Compared to the existing Monaco, it appears that if the top of the page has a bunch of text, it puts the new advertisement in the top right corner.  The text near the top simply has slightly shorter lines for a while.  I think that's pretty harmless, really.  Indeed, it fits with their claim that the new style of advertisement actually allows more room for content on the page than the old banner at the top.
 * If the top of the page has a picture in the top right corner, it moves the banner under the edit bar, instead of above it. It doesn't add a new picture and destroy the page, but only moves the banner at the top slightly.  I'm sorry, but I really can't get terribly upset about moving a banner to be under the edit bar instead of above it, especially when someone who finds this horribly offensive can easily register, log in, and change the skin.
 * The peculiar thing that might cause trouble is that it doesn't seem consistent in where it puts the advertisement. Even reloading the same page can sometimes render a box advertisement one time and then a banner the next, or vice versa.  It tends to err on the side of going with the old type of banner instead of the new boxes, choosing the banner even on some pages where I think the new box advertisement would look better.
 * That only leaves the main page, where they're going to want to always have an advertisement in the top right corner. I don't know about you, but when I go to the main page, the first thing I want to do is immediately get off the main page--which doesn't even entail looking at the right half of the page at all.  Apart from the main page advertisement, even if money were not a factor, one could make a case that the new style of advertisements is less intrusive than the old.  Quizzical 07:32, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Less Disruptive? Lets see right now the main page has 2 ads. one at the bottom and under the sidebar, unnoticeable at first glance, with this there will be two ads shoved in your face right on top of the page, forcing one to scroll down to see content, where before there was no need. Now going to articles, like before now there is only 2 ads out of the way, after this change there will be 3 ads, one still blaring in the viewers face... Until I am shown some numbers relating to hosting this wiki I am with auron that they just want more money, a violation of the license. --[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 07:50, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

The license has been brought up (search for "leagl" on this page). The placement of the ads its kinda haphazard, in I see a corner ad pushing the image down. Can you imagine designing pages for viewers that will see ads when you yourself don't see them? It doesn't fix things that we won't see them when 95% of our readers do because we have to write and lay out the content for them. Put our infoboxes on the left and let the content be crushed between the info and the box? Recommend viewing this site at 1200x1600? Make a dump of the database and set up elsewhere? --mendel 08:55, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, they're adding another advertisement to the main page. That's one page.  It's not going to be some awful nightmare to redo 1 (one) page, as in, fewer than two pages.  Okay, maybe two pages if you count the editcopy, but that can be redone just by copying and pasting the main page.
 * And what's your point about forcing people to scroll down? On the main page, you already have to do that, in every single skin available, unless you're at some insanely huge resolution that my monitor can't handle.  On other pages, the new box advertisements will take less area than the old banners, with only the exception of very low monitor resolutions (possibly including 800x600).  Further, they tend to be more likely to use previously empty space.  This allows more actual content higher on the pages, which means less scrolling down.
 * The one thing that I do see as being a problem is the pages that switch which way they render, seemingly at random. Mendel points out one of them, as if you reload that page several times, you'll see it switch back and forth some.  That's probably a bug.  Quizzical 09:18, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I think Wikia may have turned off corner ads for now, I couldn't get them to appear even on Cat. Fixing the bug? Anyone care to make a page on the testwiki that uses a float:right div/table like our infoboxes? --mendel 10:39, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Apparently they said that the random bit about ad placement is not a bug. It supposedly picks the banner if the box will break the page, and otherwise picks at random.  That means that even within the same skin, a page could render two different ways, which could be awkward to design for.  That seems like a rather dumb "feature".  Maybe we just have to make sure to design pages such that the system that checks will think that the box breaks the page, in order to get certainty in page design?  Quizzical 22:10, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * We seem to be going backwards and forwards on this one at the moment. The options we are looking at right now are:  "always a box, unless a conflict with something like a table is detected, then banner" or "either a box or a banner, unless a conflict with something like a table is detected, then banner".  The first means more boxes overall (which intrude more into the article), the second means less stability.  Our initial understanding of the feedback was that the less boxes the better, but now I'm starting to hear more on the side of stability.  Two things that have been tweaked since the announcement: short articles won't show ads, and the idea of the fixed width main page has been discarded. And of course the whole thing has been delayed for a week to gather more feedback and make sure everyone has heard about the change (we are going to send out a global notice to help with that).  There won't be a change yet, but it is likely to have the same number of ads as Monaco in the future.   However, that will be the lower number of ads seen by logged in users, not the logged out view.  And with both, pages such as talk pages, recent changes, forum pages, and so on will not have ads.  -- sannse (talk) 12:51, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Last minute shoring up before the storm
Looking over the test wiki, a right-floating infobox will be horribly broken by the new ads. To remedy this, there is a simple coding. Simply by inserting or, with more coding but giving less of a gap, , can force the ad into a banner format. If we were to place this coding on top of Template:Skill box, Tamplate:Weaponinfo, etc. before the ads go live, we could avoid the new ads altogether. Should we risk shooting the job queue to hell and edit all the templates to avoid the impending page-breaking, or wait to see what happens?<font color="#4682b4">Entrea  <font color="#4682b4">[Talk]  03:30, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I say we should wait, and see how the ads affect the pages first. Also, when the job queue does shoot to hell, we can make sure Wikia notices it lines up with the implementation of their new advertising system. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  04:01, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * It's not exactly "avoiding" the new ad, it's just forcing it into the more desirable of the two configurations (banner >> box). Still, it's a very good idea.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 04:22, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * If this works, then every infobox should get a "free sample". &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 06:35, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Note that the changes have been delayed a week. Quizzical 06:41, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Can't we do that with site CSS or won't that work? What I'm thinking of is prepending the table codes to the article space div using CSS rewrite (?) rules. I'm very hazy on the details, though; should I look that up? --mendel 07:32, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Adding a new node to the DOM tree would require JavaScript, and I'm not well-versed in JS enough to say how difficult it would be to prepend a node into the content &lt;div> (there may be a prepend equivalent to the "appendNode" function, but I don't know). That would be much more efficient than overloading the job queue.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 13:59, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually I was thinking of the CSS :before selector. As I understand it, you can use it to insert anything before a certain class of element. --mendel 14:23, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Don't think that would work... we want to insert this table inside the content div, not outside it, which is where :before or :after would place it, I think. I can't seem to make it work from my monobook.css, so I don't know for sure.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 17:17, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, in any case, we have a quick, easy solution that we know will work, and we have a week to find a better one. Unless Wikia gives in, but what are the chances of that?[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]]<font color="#4682b4">Entrea  <font color="#4682b4">[Talk]  23:11, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Monoco
"Anonymous logins went up 223%" No shit? You had to make a account to not put up with the monoco skin!

Thats entire section is a load of crap, optimized to load faster? How exactly is something with more colors and menus going to load faster? "Monaco is easier for new wiki users to understand. The majority of internet users still don't realize that there's an "edit" button on Wikipedia. That's because on Monobook, all the important links and buttons are written in 8.5-point type. Monaco is designed to make the important stuff stand out, like the edit button and the search box." If you cant see the buttons on top of the page already making them bigger isn't going to help you.

"In the past, communities have used various skins – Monaco, Quartz or Monobook. That's a luxury that we can't afford to offer any more, as advertisers strongly prefer a consistent look-and-feel." Fuck the advertisers, they don't run the wikis. Don't even get me started on the ad part...-- 19:20, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

no ads on stubs
From w:c:darth:Forum:We_love_you%2C_Wikia.: * Two things in the plan have changed with the first load of feedback... ads won't show on short pages, if it's a stub it will be automatically skipped, and the squished main page idea is on its way out. There will still be the need for a 300px column as part of the right hand side of the page, but the overall width will remain dynamic.

I know this is all a big change, and I know that people are worried and angry. But I also know that change is necessary, and that we will come though it. -- sannse@Wikia (talk) 19:05, 9 June 2008 (UTC) So we simply run a bot to add to every single article. Bada-bing, bada-bam -- no new ads for anyone. Who's with me? /fistshake &mdash;Dr Ishmael  20:03, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Highfive Ishmael!  Light   Kitty   20:06, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Since Light is my sockpuppet, I totally agree! /highfive Ishy! &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 20:08, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yaya - worth a try - but do you want to change all normal stubs to something like "stubstub" just incase it dosn't work <font color="Orange">Random Time 20:10, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * X2... make a new "stub" template and throw the old one on every article with text like "SCREW WIKIA" and use the new ones on our real stubs! I'm serious.--[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 20:10, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Not stubstub, substub - much better <font color="Orange">Random Time 20:14, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Or Stubly Stub. Like Manly Man but stubby. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  20:27, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * As an extension of this, I also propose adding a sitenotice in large text telling anonymous users to create accounts and switch to Monobook in order to protest Wikia's stupidity. Monobook 4ever!  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 20:26, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Go do it, ishy! &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 20:30, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with this, as long as it removes the horrid ads. Also, MayBot and PhoenixBot have the ability to preform this task as well; if you need any help that is ;o) -- Shadowphoenix  20:32, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm only semi-serious about stubbing the whole wiki, although it is an option. I'll work on the site notice thing, though.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 20:43, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I would consider stubbing the entire wiki a great idea. At least just to see the response. Lord of all tyria 20:52, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I wonder if they would consider it a TOS violation... Not that I care, if it fails guildwiki will die anyways...--[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 20:53, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps we should rename ourselves to StubWiki, or GuildStub then? --- -- (s)talkpage  20:55, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * You don't think it would be hard for them to change it so that a certain page size would make the ads show up whether it's labeled a stub or not? That change sounds a lot easier than un-stubbing everything after it is made.  Quizzical 20:57, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * We can't violate a ToS we never signed up for (unless you signed up to Gwiki when it was wikia) I think when I signed up it was gamewikis <font color="Orange">Random Time 20:58, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi guys -- Just so you know... The short pages are determined by the length of the article, not by a stub template or category. Check out this page on Communitytest to see how it'll work.


 * Also, Monobook will have the same ads as Monaco will. The right sidebar on Monobook will go away, and Monobook will have the in-article ads. Monobook and Monaco will be the same ad-wise.


 * Let me know if you have any other questions....... -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 21:00, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Make a copy of every page and template it in the real article? There's always a way... --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  21:02, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah - where can I find a database dump - the old page dosn't work <font color="Orange">Random Time 21:03, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

To stub ALL the articles, seems to be a bit drastic, don't you think? Yes, no one likes adds, but is it really worth going through all that trouble? Wikia will most likely notice something like this anyway and take action (like mentioned before, looking at page size and not whether it's stubbed or not). <font face = "Matura MT Script Capitals">Silver Sunlight 21:03, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * O nevermind... maybe I should read edit conflicts :P <font face = "Matura MT Script Capitals">Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|19px]] 21:04, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * P.S. This wasn't a loophole that we changed because we read your conversation or anything. That's how this is supposed to work. So really do ask if I can clarify anything, just so you don't have to go to the trouble of twisting your wiki around to take advantage of something that wouldn't work anyway. -- <font color="Blue">Danny (<font color="Blue" size="1">talk ) 21:07, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Will adblock give me lots of white space, or no? I fail at firefox add-ons, so I can't tell what my adblock does. Lord of all tyria 21:11, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Also, Monobook will have the same ads as Monaco will. The right sidebar on Monobook will go away, and Monobook will have the in-article ads. Monobook and Monaco will be the same ad-wise.
 * All right, now there's something finally worth getting upset about. Two days of screaming and no one could find anything worth getting upset about, until a Wikia employee has to come volunteer the information.  Amusing, don't you think?
 * And, uh, right sidebar? I don't see a right sidebar.  Do you see a right sidebar?  Quizzical 21:54, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, I have managed to use Firefox Adblock to block all ads on this wiki. I still don't like Monaco though (even without the ads, I think it doesn't look as good as the Monobook skin), but I don't think there is anything we can do about the decision to implement it. Kidburla 00:39, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You can change your personal settings to monobook <font color="Orange">Random Time 05:29, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Costs
I want to know the exact costs of running THIS wiki, we are not one of your wikis you force the gfdl on and you can't use us to make a profit, which is what I must assume you are putting in more ads for since you wont display the numbers needed to keep running.-- 21:08, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Aren't they applying this change to all their wikis? <font face = "Matura MT Script Capitals">Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|19px]] 21:11, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, but most of them are on a GFDL, this is a non commercial license. --[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 21:12, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah I see your point... but they will never release information like that :) because if they are in fact making profit, by simply not telling anyone about it, they can hide it. <font face = "Matura MT Script Capitals">Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|19px]] 21:14, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Which brings up the legality issue. Unfortunately i know very little about legal practice in online licenses.--[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 21:18, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * In our case, they actually do have a contractual obligation to tell us about it: see the bottom of Gil's comment here. While it's not in the contract that Gravewit signed, it is part of the implicit contract that Wikia made with us, the GuildWiki community, as a compromise to keep us here instead of moving to GWW.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 21:32, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * ...Speaking of which, I can't find any mention of a financial summary for 2008. Granted, we were only hosted by them for 3-4 months, but they still should've posted records for that time.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 21:51, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm particularly concerned that this violates our licensing. Are other wikis on wikia under this licensing? Because if they aren't then we may be an exception. If the ads aren't disruptive, I'm willing to let them pass. But the moment the ads become disruptive, it warrants a closer look at wikia's finances. &mdash;<font color=#ff44aa>♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 22:21, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * A lawsuit over someone trying to make money off of content that has been licensed to be only useable for free would be an interesting case. If it hasn't happened yet, it probably will soon (and would even if GuildWiki had never existed).  Quizzical 22:27, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * If it has happened, the EFF has most likely been involved. --mendel 05:53, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Skin(poll)
What should the default skin of GuildWiki be? Monobook(Current default skin) Monaco(Skin being enforced as default by this change) Other Skin(List below) What does Guildwiki, not wikia staff, think is better for the wiki?-- 21:23, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll bet that a lot of people think Monobook is better because they're used to it--which is often primarily because it's the current default. Quizzical 21:46, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * People are entitled to that, wikia doesn't have a right to decide...--[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 21:48, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I think Monobook is better because I think Monaco is ugly. It's the same reason I stick with the Windows Classic desktop instead of using the Windows XP crap: I prefer simple, streamlined interfaces without fancy bells-and-whistles stuff.  Yes, I know that I could fix the "ugliness" of Monaco by basically rewriting it in my user CSS file, but I really don't feel like doing all that work.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 21:54, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I also use the Windows Classic desktop setup, instead of the newer stuff that Microsoft has pushed with XP and now Vista. And you know why?  Because it's what I've been used to ever since Windows 95.  If I were used to some Vista desktop setup and Microsoft tried to push people to use the 95 setup, I'd protest that, too.  But it's not a problem because I can change the settings and be done with it--just like how people who don't like Monaco can still change their setings to Monobook.  Quizzical 22:01, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Quiz, you still seem arrogant of the fact that this wiki is for the GW players, we can't ask every single one of them to make a account so it doesn't look like crap and expect them to use Guild wiki and not GWW.--[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 22:02, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Where did they even find the new theme? Did a quick Google to find a download of it but nothing at all. -- Tarun 22:05, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Monaco? I believe it is a custom skin of Wikia.--[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 22:08, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Bah, I wanted to test it on my private network wiki to see what it's like. So I was hoping to find a download. -- Tarun 03:30, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

The poll was reset when you edited it :P <font face = "Matura MT Script Capitals">Silver Sunlight 22:14, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * wtf... thats a very stupid design... My bad tho..--[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 22:39, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Doesn't really matter lol almost everyone would choose option one anyway <font face = "Matura MT Script Capitals">Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|19px]] 22:43, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I did see one vote for monaco, otherwise it is now the same as it was before I messed it up :/--[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 22:52, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Question for Danny
I do have a question, Danny: what are you guys smoking over there? Whatever it is, it must be pretty damn strong. Can't you tell that no one likes this change? Why are you forcing through a change whose sole benefit (increased ad revenue) directly profits the Wikia corporation while it is already alienating a large portion of "your" communities? Sure, making this change will help Wikia pay for hosting costs... because afterwards you won't have anything to host. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 21:25, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * If the adds are really distracting, I would consider leaving this wiki and going to the official one. I'm sure I'm not the only one.... <font face = "Matura MT Script Capitals">Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|19px]] 21:54, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I guess it depends on what one considers to be "distracting" ads. If they start doing the talking ads, the video clip ads (as opposed to minor animation), or (worst of all) the ads that cover up (as opposed to merely moving) content to essentially disable it, then I'll agree.  Quizzical 21:57, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * So we'll just have to wait and see... *awaits the apocalypse* <font face = "Matura MT Script Capitals">Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|19px]] 22:00, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * From looking at the link posted above about gil's page or sumsuch, and the examples provided from that page... its gonna slow down but the ads will not be too obtrusive. Roland Cyerni 22:54, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

A few responses ...
Hey everyone,

I really respect that you all are so passionate about your community--quite frankly I would be too if I was in your situation. While I don't have much news about the Monaco transition beyond what you have already read, I did want to go ahead and respond to some other issues that you all have brought up during the course of this discussion: I'll continue watching this discussion as well, so please let me know if you have any questions. I'll try to find answers for you and get back as quickly as I can.
 * First of all, you can rest assured that we fully intend to honor your CC BY-NC-SA license. Wikia also hosts Memory Alpha and Uncyclopedia under non-commercial licenses and we have similar arrangements in those cases as well.  Unfortunately, the current ad revenue for this site doesn't even come close to covering the costs of maintaining it.  In fact, we recover an even lower percentage of our costs from this site than we do other Monobook sites because, after listening to your concerns, we moved the Google ad unit back to the bottom of the page rather than the right side.  Unfortunately, I do not have any specific numbers for you right now.  Gil's message, references an annual report, and we have not yet reached the 1-year anniversary since GuildWiki's move to Wikia, but I will still look in to it and get back to you.
 * Second, please voice your opinions on the forum page on Central. While keeping things the same is, unfortunately, not an option, we are listening to any suggestions on how to make the changes work better for your site.  We understand that some of you are angry and upset, but what would help more than anything are comments on what specifically you don't like and, if you have any ideas, how to remedy those issues.
 * Finally, I can't find the original post, but someone asked about database dumps. Database dumps for all of our wikis can be found here.  The site is a little slow right now for reasons unrelated to the announcement, but our engineers are working to fix that right now.

Thanks! --KyleH (talk) 02:19, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * any more the eviscerate executioners strike spike dont work that much but its fairly effective. very weak against any type of anti-melee and shock is a costly interrupt skill. -- Dr R. Phalange 02:24, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Bullshit, you had enough money to steal this wiki. I don't believe for a second anything you people say about hosting costs, not til I see some proof. And what about eviscerate?--[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 02:28, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * dont work that much but its fairly effective. very weak against any type of anti-melee -- Dr R. Phalange 02:29, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * How effective is it against illegal commercial advertisements? --[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 02:32, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * it throws a boner at them -- Dr R. Phalange 02:34, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Interesting.--[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 02:34, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * GW:AGF applies to Wikia staff too. If they say they aren't making money, I believe them. Just deal with it, they aren't evil people. If this latest ad layout is as bad as we know it will be, they'll change it back, and if not, we'll just find a way to force it onto banner ads. It's not the end of the world, just try and deal with it with more maturity than a 5-year-old kid.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]]<font color="#4682b4">Entrea  <font color="#4682b4">[Talk]  03:05, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Well I must break AGF then, because I find it hard to believe that after they were able to buy out Guildwiki they are now having hosting problems...--[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 03:11, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * No GuildWiki policy applies to someone who's willing to ruin it by breaking licenses and ignoring the whole Wikia community. Think of the bigger picture and stop sticking to your little policies. -- Dr R. Phalange 15:26, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

In any case, it's mostly pointless arguing over the new ad layout. By adding a very simple string of coding to all our templates, the ad can be forced into a banner layout. Look at the test wiki's cat page.It will never, no matter what, show a box ad, and it uses more coding than is truly needed.<font color="#4682b4">Entrea  <font color="#4682b4">[Talk]  03:16, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * A question of whether they're making money or not on a given wiki could be very hard to answer. The amount of revenue they get from each wiki is probably easily computed.  But what about the costs?  What fraction of their server costs are due to GuildWiki, for example?  Sure, they can compute the numbers of edits, page views, etc., but viewing a 500 byte page surely takes less bandwidth than viewing a 50 KB page.  Even if they can compute bandwidth used, the time of day in which it is used probably matters, too.
 * And what about staff costs? How much of the salaries paid by Wikia are due to each wiki?  Page views, bandwidth used, number of edits, number of registered users, number of pages, and anything else that you could use as a measure of the "size" of a wiki likely won't be all that good of a proxy for how often people from the wiki run to staff for help.  Some costs scale up with the number of wikis a lot more than others; if Wikia didn't host anything for a week, they wouldn't suddenly have $0 in expenses that week.  How should those be divvied among the various wikis?
 * If one person looked at all the data available to Wikia and computed a number, he could perhaps compute a number as an approximation to the cost of hosting the wiki. A different person looking at the same data might compute a different number by divvying various expenses differently among the wikis.  And neither of them would necessarily be "wrong".
 * This situation reminds me of baseball and hockey executives crying poverty over how they're losing tons of money when it came time for labor negotiations, while the players union said it was a bunch of garbage and owners were making plenty of money. Of course, it also reminds me of companies going broke in the dot-com bust.  Quizzical 03:33, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The way the promise has been written as documented in the Wikia Move article, you take our revenue (Pageviews, what have you) and offset that against our share of the total operating costs for wikia. The interesting issue is how the acquisition costs are figured: if wikia is running at a loss because it spends money on acquisitions, would we be running at a profit if acquisitions (including ours) were not counted? That's hard to tell, and I wouldn't presume to decide if acquisitions money comes out of the profit, or whether they're part of a larger operating strategy and thus count towards operating costs. --mendel 06:06, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

One more question, then: Above, Danny said, "Monobook will have the same ads as Monaco will ... Monobook and Monaco will be the same ad-wise." Since the real point of this change is the ads... why can't we keep Monobook as our default skin? Frankly, I see the forced skin-change as screwing us over more than the additional advertisement. [edit] Also, on the "annual report" thing, I assumed "annual" referred to calendar years, so that we should have seen a report sometime in January covering the last few monmths of 2007. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 14:19, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Ads are a large part of this, and obviously with the strong feelings they are dominating the conversation. But they aren't the only aspect.  The other big factor is long-term growth across all the wikis on Wikia. I know many of you will feel that these changes won't help there, but a lot of the differences between Monaco and Monobook are aimed at getting people to see that there is a community around, see that they can edit, and to join the wiki.  These things might seem obvious when you know Monobook, but people still visit wikis and don't realise they can edit (I get emails all the time with people sending in corrections they don't know they could make themselves).  A consistent look on all Wikia wikis (valuable for newbies and advertisers), an easier to learn interface, a single default skin that we can concentrate future development on (features like editing tips are only available on Monaco), and more useful and sellable ad space are the goals here -- sannse (talk) 17:39, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I hope you people realize that their is a competitor to this wiki, and as you screw us and our viewers over there will more visitors to the other wiki, I don't think that is in the best interests of your community. --[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 17:47, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * So Wikia is actually throwing money away on GuildWiki? Where were the financial analysts and advisors when Wikia decided to purchase GuildWiki? Don't you have a responsibility to your shareholders to maximize profit? [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 19:23, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * isnt there a way that we can view it the old way even if it changes?--<font color="#FF1493">Cloud <font color="Blue">dyl 21:04, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * No, there isn't. The changes being implemented will affect the current default skin, monobook, as well. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 21:09, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * but, some other sites that wikia owns dont have to change, just cos we are low income doesnt mean we dont matter surely, they could buy us they could at least treat us right...--<font color="#FF1493">Cloud <font color="Blue">dyl 21:59, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * As I understand it: 1) Logged-in users using the Monobook skin will not see any changes; 2) Logged-in users using Monaco will see the updates to the Monaco skin, but no additional ads; 3) Anonymous users will see the most changes - our default skin switches to the new Monaco and new ads are inserted. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 23:00, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I understood "Also, Monobook will have the same ads as Monaco will. The right sidebar on Monobook will go away, and Monobook will have the in-article ads. Monobook and Monaco will be the same ad-wise." to mean that monobook would be affected in the same manner. Was I incorrect in this? [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 18:46, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * so, ours will change or not? --<font color="#FF1493">Cloud <font color="Blue">dyl 19:17, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * No it will, for some reason.--[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 19:18, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * but why?--<font color="#FF1493">Cloud <font color="Blue">dyl 19:42, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * If you find out let me know.--[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 19:46, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

A few quotes:
Have a look at Wikia_Move - I found it very interesting - read through the talk with wikia after the contract - and see what has (and hasn't) been kept up 05:50, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Inevitable conflict: ads vs. content
Read my thoughts in full over on the wikia forum: Ads vs. Content. Basically, I advocate interstitial ads getting shoved on top of the page by Javascript after page load for unregistered users - this has the advantage of not breaking page design -, and Project Wonderful-style ads to replace the google ads we have now. Thoughts? --mendel 07:17, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Boycott
If you are planning to leave GW for GWW if the changes go through, you might consider adding your name to this Boycott list. --mendel 20:21, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * BTW, look at the ads... http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Image:New_monaco_mainpage.jpg <font color="Orange">Random Time 21:15, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * LMAO! they look rediculous :(--<font color="#FF1493">Cloud <font color="Blue">dyl 18:45, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

My main concerns
I haven't carefully read everything on this page and the related stuff just yet, but I felt it necessary to get my thoughts down... &mdash;<font color=#ff44aa>♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 17:57, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) The ad location is the same location as the info box on not only this wiki, but must wikis. It will push the infobox down on the page. On smaller resolution monitors, it will push the infobox off the screen and take up almost half the content section. Have you considered at least moving it below the infobox? Additionally, on articles that have a TOC and an infobox, there is some open screen real-estate between those two things that could be used for ads. I can deal with ads in the content space but the chosen location is terrible. I would rather have ads on talk pages, in the middle of a big block of text, even pop-ups than have it interfere with the content. How about having one of those hide buttons on the ad so that it minimizes after a person sees it? This will actually cause the person to consciously look at the ad (as opposed to ignoring it; advertisers can understand that) and also allow them to keep the ad from interfering with the content while they are browsing.
 * 2) Most stub articles are subcategorized into types of stubs: NPC-stubs, weapon-stubs, glossary-stubs. Will those be counted as stubs and not have the advertisements? They are still stubs.
 * 3) We are not the only wiki of Guild Wars info. If our users don't like this, they will just move over to the official wiki. Anything that will encourage the users to move over to the other wiki, will only weaken this site. Players come here because we are older and more complete. Contributors stay here because of loyalty and stubbornness and the friends we have here. However, if browsing the official wiki becomes a more pleasant experience than staying here, I'm afraid that both contributions and pageviews on this site will plummet. I'm not even just saying this out of concern for us but I'm concerned that Wikia too will lose out by doing this.
 * 4) How exactly does this effect monobook. I, and I'm sure many others, would like to continue using this familiar skin. People like familiarity. Are the ads in the content section still going to appear in the same place? What about other ads?
 * 5) I have every intension of encouraging anonymous users to register accounts and change their skin over to monobook.
 * 6) I am concerned about the licensing. I would be interested in seeing some financial reports sooner rather than later. I don't think it best to wait until a year has passed since the acquisition. This has a vital impact on our license.
 * 7) I understand that Wikia needs to have ads somewhere to pay for their wikis. I also know that one of the things we are fighting here is change. If GuildWiki had always had ads around, we would be used to it and no one would care.
 * 8) It is very important to me to protect this wiki. It is a community that I care about and a resource I find invaluable. I don't want it to be lost. And after the pain of the acquisition, I don't think that Wikia does either.

Responses: <font color="#4682b4">Entrea  <font color="#4682b4">[Talk]  18:05, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) Already solved. It's easy to modify infoboxes to create a forced banner ad.
 * 2) Stubs are by page length, not a stub tag. Any short page will get no ad, whether or not its in a stub cat.
 * 3) That's a problem, but the changes will be minimal once my banner-ad scheme is complete.
 * 4) Monobook will have an ad at the top instead of bottom. No biggie.
 * 5) Good.
 * 6) I personally trust Wikia on this one, hey say they arent making money, they probably aren't. Especially with so much AdBlock and css hacks.
 * 7) We'll adapt pretty quick like we did when we first got the ads in their current layout.
 * 8) We've pulled through worse than this before. We'll make it.

Questions: 4 Why does it have to change though, it looks inoffensive at the bottom, you arent forced to look at it 6 Whats adblock, and also, is there a way you can change it just for yourself so the ads aren't there? (if that makes sense) --<font color="#FF1493">Cloud <font color="Blue">dyl 22:19, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know why it has to change, ask Wikia. Adblock is a FireFox extension that blocks advertisements from appearing on your computer, and many people either use that or modify Special:Mypage/monobook.css to block ads wiki-side.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]]<font color="#4682b4">Entrea  <font color="#4682b4">[Talk]  23:06, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Timing Update (and more info)
Hey everyone,

I have some new information for you regarding Monaco and its implementation on GuildWiki. In short: GuildWiki will not be transitioned to New Monaco at the same time as the rest of Wikia. While may need to revisit this discussion at some point in the future, we want to make sure that you have plenty of time to evaluate and customize Monaco before we implement it on the site. I would still encourage you to try it out in your own personal preferences and think of ways that it can be improved as we move forward, but it is not something that you need to worry about right this second.

Regarding a few of the other issues voiced in this thread:
 * Mononook will always be a personal choice for logged-in users.
 * Encouraging users to register for any reason is great, even if it means they see less ads. :)

I really appreciate your passion regarding this change and everything else--it's your wiki, and you have worked hard to make it what it is today. While there are some compromises that we might have to make (together) in the future, we'll do everything we can to support the health and the integrity of the community.

-- KyleH (talk) 23:26, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for understanding. With luck, we'll find a good way to make the ads compatible with our infoboxes pretty soon. Unfortunately, they're just too important to accept having them moved down the page.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]]<font color="#4682b4">Entrea  <font color="#4682b4">[Talk]  23:51, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh, and I should point out that this was the plan from the start, but I misunderstood some (important) details during some conversations with my boss. I'm sorry about that. :(  --KyleH (talk) 23:54, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Kyle, thank you so much. Your contributions always make me feel like Wikia is listening and understands our concerns. I know its not always possible to give us everything we want, but I at least feel like you're trying. &mdash;<font color=#ff44aa>♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥  23:59, 11 June 2008 (UTC)