Talk:Main Page

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Repeatable Quests
Hi guys! You have the best GW resource I have ever seen. Seriously, what you do is much appreciated. I would suggest advertising a little more but over all awesome. I know each quest in UW and FoW are repeatable when the instance is refreshed, and GW in their latest release notes said that many in SF were too. So, I thought it would be helpful to have another category for quests that are repeatable. Thanks a bunch. -- Ravious Pretagata

Community/Current events
Both the Current Events and Community Portal have laid fallow for quite some time. Perhaps we should put them to some use? They're easily accessible and commonly editable, and would be a perfect place for recent stylistic clarifications to be put, non-vital questions to be asked, and polls to be conducted. --Talrath Stormcrush 14:32, 15 Aug 2005 (EST)


 * Take the lead on it, and we'll see how it turns out and tweak it communitarily (is that a word?). Design by committee isn't useful, but critique by committee is. &mdash;Tanaric 18:06, 15 Aug 2005 (EST)

Categorization That Won't Die
I've noticed a few pages that just seem to not "decategorize." For example, Unlinked Skill is in Category:Skills for apparently no reason. The article itself doesn't show that it's in the category yet it's in the category's listings. I've tried purging both the article and the category to no effect. --Fyren 14:48, 19 Aug 2005 (EST)


 * Is it a holdover from the database corruption issues we faced? &mdash;Tanaric 00:13, 20 Aug 2005 (EST)


 * Doing a null edit (saving a page without changing anything) fixes it. Too bad I didn't keep a list of all the pages I noticed suffering from this problem.  --Fyren 18:20, 21 Aug 2005 (EST)

Skill Templates
I hope I'm not the only one who noticed how absurdly wordy the skill template is. I've taken the liberty of compressing it into Template:Skill_New. Produces the same format, and is much less ugly. Check the old Dismember vs. the new. as is, it won't work for everything: It uses the pagename for the image title, and many skills can't use that (Anything with ' or " in their title. However, a space will work, provided the image has been uploaded with the space included (Or an underscore). --Talrath Stormcrush 15:29, 21 Aug 2005 (EST)


 * Bleh, you posted here while I was writing my comments over at Template talk:Skill New. This should be discussed there, or maybe better in skills' style and formatting.  (Put a link in the recent events, too, if you want.)  --Fyren 15:37, 21 Aug 2005 (EST)

Map with boss locations, elite and non-elite?
Does such a map exist with boss locations so that signet of capture users can find a particular skill on a boss to capture? Elite maps exist, but is there a map with non-elite bosses?


 * Such a work would be a huge undertaking, though not necessarily useless. I would have preferred to be able to get most "Air Magic" skills earlier by signet of capture than having to wait till Ventari's Refuge and Maguuma Stade just to get some decent skills. Personally, I do not know that any such map or site exists. --Karlos 09:35, 26 Aug 2005 (EST)


 * Not quite sure what you mean, but the GWFreaks tool (gwfreaks.com) might have what you're looking for. You can search for any skill in the game with this program, and the program will tell you where you can get it (any skill trainers, elite bosses, or Balthazar Priests), as well as provide a map of where it can be found, including precise boss locations.. not to mention a sort of simulator for builds, where you can set attribute levels and see how green numbers line up... actually, would it be OK to write an article on this app? I kinda wonder where it would be linked to from if it existed... perhaps the skill listing page? --Midk 16:42, 29 Aug 2005 (EST)
 * They don't list where you can capture non-elite skills. Which is what he was asking about. --Karlos 17:17, 29 Aug 2005 (EST)
 * Ah, I couldn't figure out what he meant by a non-elite.. boss/skill... never mind. :) --Midk 17:32, 29 Aug 2005 (EST)
 * I've looked through the boss list in the Prima guide and the boss lists on various websites for non-elite skills worth capturing. For monks I've added the bosses to the skill decription of the respective skills (for example Divine Intervention, Draw Conditions or Scourge Sacrifice), and I will do the same for other professions too, later. There is no map of non-elite skills though. --Tetris L 15:39, 30 Aug 2005 (EST)
 * Oh, and off course there is a map of elite skills by MOOMANiBE. Unfortunatly his host is down at the moment (too much traffic due to the large file size of the maps), but he said he will have found a new host soon. --Tetris L 15:39, 30 Aug 2005 (EST)

Help!
The SQL error about the duplicate key has resurfaced. --Karlos 04:27, 7 Sep 2005 (EST)


 * Yes, I have experienced it twice, too, in the last few days. It does not occur on every single edit but only sporadic, though. Which is good. Because I noticed that this error in fact does have inpact on the data integrity. When a new article is created and the error occurs, this article is not added to the categories correctly. I.e. I created Wroth Yakslapper, but he was not listed in Category:Stone Summit or any of his other categories. To fix that you only have to edit the article another time, it'll be added to the categories then. I also stumbled across some uncategorized articles from back when this error was rampant in the Special:Uncategorizedpages. :) --Eightyfour-onesevenfive 06:27, 9 Sep 2005 (EST)

Salvage Information
I was thinking it might be nice to have some way to reference what salvages into what. I couldn't find any section here on the Wiki that had that but I may have missed it. If it doesn't exist how do people feel about building one? I don't know a lot about using Wikis but i'd be willing to get it rolling.


 * This has been started at some point with categories like Category:Contains wood, Category:Contains iron and the like. But the items section is still rather incomplete. --Eightyfour-onesevenfive 00:20, 8 Sep 2005 (EST)

Good idea. The guide from Prima has an appendix that contains all this information.

Unique Item List here
Can we please place a link to Unique Items List here in the quick links box? --Karlos 22:18, 13 Sep 2005 (EST)


 * Thanks, sire. And I too think it's only temporary. --Karlos 16:52, 14 Sep 2005 (EST)


 * Ok, its been more than a month since the update with unique items and just shy of a month since it was added to the front page. Maybe its time to remove the NEW!  tag?  --Rainith 16:15, 12 Oct 2005 (EST)

GuildWiki:User Questions
How about adding the new User Questions to the "Getting Started" section?

items with chance ?
Hi,

if i have an item that gives you a condition maybe recharge faster (chance 10%). What does chance mean ? Is chance 10% better or chance 20% ? Higher or lower ?
 * It gives you 10% (or 20%) chance that the skill used will recharge faster (i don't know how much faster, but i would guess 25% or 33%). --Geeman 06:12, 15 Sep 2005 (EST)
 * Here's an example: A wand gives you a 20% to recharge Air magic skills faster. That means that while fighting you'll notice that one Air skill out of every five you use will recharge very quickly. My guess would be twice as fast since I equip one of those and notice my Lightning Strike Charge in nearly 2 seconds. --Karlos 06:46, 15 Sep 2005 (EST)
 * I also believe the faster recharge is 50%. Perhaps this should be noted on weapon upgrades?  --Fyren 10:29, 15 Sep 2005 (EST)
 * I put it there, but we also do not know if perhaps it is less for the smaller percentages. i.e. it could be that at 20% chance it makes recharge 50% but at 10% it makes recharge only 75%. --Karlos 15:13, 15 Sep 2005 (EST)

Scattered Information vs. Overviews
Here comes my rant. (Beware, long read. :))

I have a general problem with this Wiki: We have a strong tendency here to scatter information as much as we can. It seems to me that we create a separate article for every tiny bit of information. (Granted, this is a tendency of all encyclopedias.) Even worse: We split up small articles when it really makes no sense. I hate it when I have to click through 20 pages to gather information that I can find on one page on many other websites. I assure you: This is not what our users want.

For example, take the Collector lists. (I'm surprised it hasn't been ripped apart yet.) Instead of just listing the names of all collectors and linking to them for details, it lists the complete information, with location and item details. This page is one of the most popular pages on GuildWiki for a reason!! All the information in one place. 'Nuf said.

There is nothing wrong with having a detailed separate article for every bit of information, as long as there are still overview pages, tables and lists. And an overview should be more than just an alphabetic list. Which is why I think category lists - in most cases - are a poor solution for an overview list. A real overview list, in an article, properly formated and structured, may require more maintenance, but covers the topic much better, which makes the additional work well worth it.

Related to this problem is our policy to separate lists from defintion articles. In my humble opinion this makes sense only if the list is growing very large. As long as I can read both the defintion and the list on 1 page, with just a few turns of my mousewheel, there is really no need to split up the information.

I know there were concious decisions made about this structure by the admins and the main contributors as some point in the past. I don't know if I was already a contributor myself at that point. Sorry to bring up the point yet again. If the majority of contributors want to stick with the policies, I'll give in. But I ask everybody to reconsider.

Thanks for reading all this. --Tetris L 19:03, 18 Sep 2005 (EST)


 * I absolutely see your point, Tetris. But I think you ask the wrong question. It should be: Usability vs. Maintenance (as already mentioned in your rant). Or: How much work are the contributors willing to take to do it as easy for the user as possible. Granted, normally usability should be one of our prime objective. But overview lists in the form like you suggest tend to create a lot of redundancy and that is something I hate. ;) Redundancy often creates a lot of additional work and since this is a user-build database we should also see to it that it is as easy for the contributors to add information as possible. Which means to find a given piece of information in one place, so you only have to edit it once. If there was a way to create overview pages without creating redundancy (and without just simply stuffing everything into one big article) I would happily approve. We shouldn't load ourselves with more work than necessary. --Eightyfour-onesevenfive 19:53, 18 Sep 2005 (EST)


 * To avoid redundancy I really like what Karlos (?) did with Molenin and Makar Thoughtslayer on the Weapon and charm collectors list. I think this is the way to go. If we create articles with the possibility in mind that an article (or a part of it) might be used as a module for an overview list, then we have no redundancy, but still nice overviews. --Tetris L 22:57, 18 Sep 2005 (EST)


 * We already talked about that at Talk:Weapon and charm collectors. The short version is maintaining the index pages is still too much trouble if they move the collectors to different zones or whatever.--Cloak of Letters 23:16, 18 Sep 2005 (EST)


 * That's the thing; I think such maintenance is necessary.--Cloak of Letters 23:16, 18 Sep 2005 (EST)


 * If minimizing maintenance work is the #1 criterion for our design decisions, then I think we're clearly moving in the wrong direction here. We should create this Wiki with a maximum of quality and user comfort in mind, not the minimum of work. Speaking only for myself, I'd gladly spend a few hours to create an overview table and also make a commitment to maintain redundant information in the table in case ANet changes something. Having said that, I hope that the game will soon reach a state where ANet has to make only minor adjustments, and not change half the game in a patch, like they did in the big Summer '05 update. --Tetris L 04:38, 19 Sep 2005 (EST)


 * The number one criterion for a successful wiki is "Correctness." If users start to find that the info on the wiki is outdated/incorrect/not useful, then the site will become irrelevant. When we allow information to be replicated in several articles for the sake of usability, we are putting our correctness at risk. Let's say ANet changes Molenin's name to Molenski. We update only 5 of the 7 pages that talk about him. Then they change Willa's elite to "Contemplation of Impurity" and for whatever reason we update only 3 of the 5 pages that mention that. In time, we will end up with an inaccurate Wiki, we will lose credibility.
 * The solution you propose, that you will put in extra hours to maintain the lists, is not one we can take. Not because you won't live up to your promise, but because it is wrong of the site to rely on a specific person to remain correct. The Wiki should not rely on Karlos or Rainith being there to remain credible.
 * With regards to Definitions and Categories. It's simple. We cannot use Category articles as the main entry, they look ugly, they are cumbersome to type and they have issues with redirects. And we cannot use definition articles for listing because we will soon have a BIG mess of replication and innaccuracy. Here, let me show you how the big boys (Wikipedia) suffer from what I mean: This is the article Sword and the Category:Swords. Notice the large discrepency between the Sowrds in the Sword article and the ones in the Swords category.
 * Categoris provide an invaluable service by linking content together. There is nothing we can do to match that. How else can I be reading about "Mountain trolls" then click on trolls to see what other trolls are there, then click on "Jungle Trolls" to see how different they are from Mountain trolls and finally discover that there is an area in the game called "The Falls"??
 * I propose a ban on any alphabetical listing outside of categories. If anyone wants to devise a list, it has to be a view interesting to users.. Like, weapons that do fire damage (and then link to it in the Ice Golems) or monsters that are resistent to blunt damage (and then link to it in hammers). --Karlos 18:43, 19 Sep 2005 (EST)
 * You have a point about redundancy. I wish we could find a way to link articles together such that the info origin is in one place and is automatically "pasted" into overview lists and tables. As far as I've understood, you can automatically embed a complete article in an other article, but you can not include just a section of an other article.
 * For example
 * will work, but
 * will not work.
 * How about we create sub-articles that we can then include in a definition article as well as overview lists and tables? For example, we create a sub-article Captain_Osric/Skills with a list of skills offered by Captain Osric. This sub-article could then be included in the main article Captain Osric as well as Trainer locations. What do you think? --Tetris L 19:20, 19 Sep 2005 (EST)
 * will not work.
 * How about we create sub-articles that we can then include in a definition article as well as overview lists and tables? For example, we create a sub-article Captain_Osric/Skills with a list of skills offered by Captain Osric. This sub-article could then be included in the main article Captain Osric as well as Trainer locations. What do you think? --Tetris L 19:20, 19 Sep 2005 (EST)

I was once again reading the documentation (cough cough) and found the and tags, which aren't features present in our version of MediaWiki, it seems (or at least, they're disabled?). They'd fix my opposition to Karlos' include ideas, since you could not tag a zillion pages everywhere with categories just by including the one that should have the categories. I can't figure out what version of MW they were added into. The documentation has failed me. --Fyren 09:18, 23 Sep 2005 (EST)


 * What about what was done with the Skill Trainers recently? I like that idea for the collectors.  The info for what they have on one page, and their vital stats/pictures on the main page with an include to the info page.  The main page could be categorized and the includes could be put on a list without causing it to be categorized.  --Rainith 09:23, 23 Sep 2005 (EST)
 * edit - What I said really wasn't very clear. Sorry I'm tired.  Check out Trainer locations and the individual trainer pages to see what I mean.  Sorry.  --Rainith 09:25, 23 Sep 2005 (EST)


 * The idea's fine for pages where you'd want to be able to break stuff out and throw sections around, but it might stop people from doing "impulse" edits, since they might not figure out what to edit. --Fyren 09:38, 23 Sep 2005 (EST)


 * Seems to me putting in a little text that isn't shown unless you're editing the article (I know I've seen it around here, can't remember what it was off the top of my head) that points people to the correct page would work. Include that line above each collector on the list, specifically customized for that collector I would think it would be fine.  Something to the effect of:
 * To edit this collector type "/collector" in the search box.
 * Seems simple to me, but maybe people wouldn't be able to follow it. I dunno.  --Rainith 09:57, 23 Sep 2005 (EST)


 * The syntax is
 * Here is an example: (Edit to see)
 * Hope that helps. --Karlos 14:29, 23 Sep 2005 (EST)
 * Hope that helps. --Karlos 14:29, 23 Sep 2005 (EST)

Admin Disappearing Act
I believe we have not had any admin log on for several days now. Ping! --Karlos 21:21, 22 Sep 2005 (EST)
 * Been wondering the same. The last one I saw was Fyren, and that was almost a week ago. --Tetris L 21:38, 22 Sep 2005 (EST)
 * My ISP decided to not actually do any ISPing for about a week. --Fyren 07:41, 23 Sep 2005 (EST)
 * Welcome back! YWe missed your deletions and bans, but most of all, your insight on many issues. Do you have any idea where the rest are? LordBiro made a cameo appearance a week ago and Tanaric disappeared soon after the case crusade. :) --Karlos 07:59, 23 Sep 2005 (EST)
 * No clue. I don't have any contact with anyone here outside of the wiki itself.  --Fyren 09:18, 23 Sep 2005 (EST)


 * Sorry, I've been busy with personal projects (not a good excuse, I know). I'll try to check the GuildWiki more frequently.  Anytime my input is sorely needed on something (be it bannings, deletions, arguments, whatever), just email me (the address is on my user page). &mdash;Tanaric 21:01, 3 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * Welcome back! Giving priority to personal life is always a good excuse. It is proof your transformation to geekdom is not complete and that there is hope for you yet! :) --Karlos 21:26, 3 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * Maybe that's true, but since the personal project happens to be working on a video game, I doubt your hypothesis applies to me. :) &mdash;Tanaric 22:14, 3 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * Back on topic, I mentioned on Gravewit's talk page that we could use another admin or two, and I think Karlos would be perfect for the job. If anyone has anything to say about it, comment it there, since Gravewit, as far as I know, is the only one who can grant admin status to a user. &mdash;Tanaric 22:14, 3 Oct 2005 (EST)

General Discussion Page
This page looks like some sort of general discussion page. As does Community Portal. It would be nice to concentrate all discussion that is not directly linked to an article at one place, to avoid scattering it up. On a side note: Check the main pages entry for Slang&Terminology. PKs? What is that? ;-) --Xeeron 01:13, 23 Sep 2005 (EST)
 * LOL, good question. I've got no idea. --Tetris L 02:02, 23 Sep 2005 (EST)
 * PK is "player kill," I believe. I guess those engrossed in GW might not be familiar with the term, but PK was the reason I never got into any MMORPG. The very idea that it's a jungle out there completely turned me off. --Karlos 14:22, 23 Sep 2005 (EST)
 * Hehe sarcasm, I played hardcore D2 before :-/ Just was suprised to see PK on the main page. --Xeeron 21:30, 23 Sep 2005 (EST)
 * It's funny, because PK is put in the "advertisement" on the main page, but it is the ONE slang term we will never put there because there are no "PK"s in the game. :) --Karlos 21:43, 23 Sep 2005 (EST)
 * Never say never =P --Xeeron 02:29, 24 Sep 2005 (EST)

Skills list on the front page
The "Skills" list under Stubs is specific to stubs; it does not include all skills, Fragility for instance, which are larger than stubs. Please replace or supplement that stub link with a link to all Skills up by the elite skills link.

http://www.guildwiki.org/guildwars/index.php/Category:Skills


 * Though perhaps it should be changed for other reasons, it is not there as a listing of all skills. It's under "helping out" as a note to say "this stuff needs work."  --Fyren 20:59, 24 Sep 2005 (EST)


 * In that case, lets add a link to category:Skills up at the top above Elite Skills. That's such an obvious thing that I'm surprised it isnt there.  I expect that everyone has just been using the Stub link just like me :)

Crafting Materials Link
Howdy, Ive just recently found out about this site, its a very good compendium of knowledge. Ive been using the crafting information quite a bit recently and I had a small suggestion that I think might improve the flow of the site. I was told to post it as a comment here. A link that goes directly to crafting materials from the main/general information area would be useful. Right now, it is necessiary to click through 3 or 4 pages (some which seem fairly stubby), starting with Armor Descriptions, to get to information on the materials in the game.

Thanks, Quatermain


 * I think that's a good idea. I would replace the link to Henchmen with the link to Crafting material. I don't see many users coming to the site to find out about henchmen. --Karlos 14:36, 25 Sep 2005 (EST)


 * Give me a link specifically; I'm not sure which article you're referring to. In any case, there's no need to replace henchmen, as the left column in the table is shorter than the right anyway&mdash;we can just tack it onto the list. &mdash;Tanaric 21:47, 3 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * At that time (though I did not read him say that) I understood him to mean the crafting material page. --Karlos 22:44, 3 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * From the way Quatermain wrote, it does sound like that page, but that's a disambiguation page, and I hardly see any information on that page that is worth frequent referencing to anyways (he wrote "Ive been using the crafting information quite a bit recently"). With 2 more clicks (plus the first one to enter, so 3 total clicks) I can get to either Category:Common Crafting Materials or Category:Rare Crafting Materials.  This appeared much closer to something that would be repeatedly referenced, but still take 3 clicks to get to from the main page, which was his problem.  I suggest putting these two into quick list section of the main page.  This way we won't have to link to the disambuation page if it's bad form to do so.

Style and formatting link
Could the link to Style and formatting be changed to Style and formatting; it doesn't fit in with the rest of the links, Peer review is also a GuildWiki: namespace link, but that's just displayed as Peer review. Skuld &Dagger; 19:39, 1 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * Good call, it's done. &mdash;Tanaric 21:04, 3 Oct 2005 (EST)

Clean URL & User JS+CSS
I noticed this Talk:Main_Page/Archives, i'm another vote for that, makes it look so much nicer ^^

I think I got this from the mediawiki metawiki a while ago this is similar to what used on a couple of wikis

php_flag register_globals off RewriteEngine on RewriteRule ^wiki/?(.*)$ /guildwars/index.php?title=$1 [L]
 * 1) close the php security hole...
 * 2)  not actually needed but probablly a good idea anyway
 * 1) first, enable the processing - Unless your ISP has it enabled
 * 2) already.  That might cause weird errors.
 * 1) do the rewrite

that gives /wiki/Page names like Wikipedia.

Then in LocalSettings.php change $wgArticlePath to "/wiki/$1";

I don't see any good reason why this shouldn't be used! Skuld &Dagger; 02:26, 8 Oct 2005 (EST)

Could we also have user css and js, this allows inderviduals(sp) to customise the site for their own use at e.g. User:Skuld/Monobook.js and User:Skuld/Monobook.css but this isn't enabled by default; could these 2 lines be added to LocalSettings.php

$wgAllowUserJs = true; $wgAllowUserCss = true;

This can be read about here Skuld &Dagger; 06:54, 8 Oct 2005 (EST)

Branching Out
Having learned so much, and having helped so many folks figure out what the hell is going on in the Guild Wars world, I would like to branch out. There's other games that need a resource as dedicated, uncluttered, and awesome, as this one. I will now open the floor to suggestions, ideas, and flaming. ''To Clarify: I mean branching out as in, creating new, seperate wikis for games, under a single banner, using the same user base. Example: You could login and post articles on a Planescape: Torment Wiki with your GuildWiki username.'' Gravewit 05:43, 13 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * You mean to have different games on the same wiki? That sounds like it could be messy.  If different wikis are set up per game, it wouldn't matter, since they wouldn't really influence each other (and wouldn't make a difference to us here).  --Fyren 07:34, 13 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * Admin privileges probably shouldn't overlap between wikis even if you can use the same login info. --Fyren 21:30, 13 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * flaming ON No 2 games in 1 wiki, the problems would grow exponentially with the number of games, dont dont dont flaming OFF. A big part why this wiki is working, is because it is all about one game. Much less problems with people using the same word and meaning different things, no 1000s of disambiguity pages, that would be lost by integrating more games --Xeeron 07:45, 13 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * Covering 2 games in the same wiki would be a huge MESS. There is nothing wrong with 2 seperate wikis on the same server though. Some of us might even help to build the basics, although we are all pretty dedicated to GuildWars. I don't see myself playing any other games anytime soon. --Tetris L 07:51, 13 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * I am going to assume you meant on a spearate version of the Wiki but on the same server so I will not flame. :) I am not much of a fan of other MMORPG, but I do think that these wikis are an excellent tool and are FAR superior to fansites. I wish I had a wiki when I was playing King's Quest I! :) So, the only concern I'd have is hosting performance and bandwidth. At times, the wiki pages take time to load and the demands on the server seem to be slowing its responsiveness. If you'll be branching into another game, then I suggest that it's on a separate hosting plan with separate bandwidth.
 * I would nominate Planescape: Torment as the next Wikified game! Even though it is out of print! :) --Karlos 09:12, 13 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * I didn't take that to mean to games in the wiki, just another wiki =P Skuld &Dagger; 23:58, 13 Oct 2005 (EST)

Stubs
Looking from a wiki-newbies point of view i'd think what the hell are stubs.

That section needs to be removed or have some explanation of what stubs are.

I'd suggest putting something in brackets under the heading Skuld &Dagger; 02:01, 14 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * I'm not quite following what you're suggesting should be done. Are you saying that new people won't know what stubs are?  If so all they need to do is click on the word "stub" in any of the stub articles out there (Wolf for example) which will then take them to a Wikipedia page that explains (at length) what stubs are.  We could just link the heading of "Stubs" on the main page the same way I guess.  --Rainith 02:35, 14 Oct 2005 (EST)

Anet Link
The Arena Net link on the main page (http://www.arena.net/about/index.html) is broken, or at least it goes to a page that is no longer there. --Rainith 13:04, 15 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * Fixed it to point to their main page. Thanks. --Karlos 14:38, 15 Oct 2005 (EST)

noinclude/includeonly
and are available in 1.5, apparently. --Fyren 08:24, 16 October 2005 (EST)
 * Wahey! ^__^ Skuld &Dagger; 18:01, 16 October 2005 (EST)