Category talk:Minion Master builds

Why it was Created
I added this page as an attempt to tidy up the general Minion Mastery guide. As of now there are no approved Necromancer MM builds and therefore nothing to link to from the article (I removed the builds in it as they were out of date) - this category was designed to be a stop-gap solution until some MM builds are approved and can be linked to directly. In the mean time it is a simple way to collect all the MM builds in one place. I've got no problems with it being deleted then, however until that time I think it is needed.

I was going to add the MM category to other MM builds over the next few days, hence the initially small number of builds in this category. --NieA7 17:38, 17 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm against the idea of temporary measures that are not needed. Builds that have not been fully tested/approved by the community can already be found in Category:Untested builds and Category:Build stubs.  Once approved, they'll be contained in Category:Untested builds.  A MM specific category creates unneeded overlap. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 08:41, 18 July 2006 (CDT)


 * There are no approved Necromancer MM builds as of now. Linking to unapproved builds in a guide is not a good idea. Considering that including builds in the article itself is also a bad idea (they are effectively unapproved and prone to becoming out of date), what would you suggest we link to in the guide if we don't use a temporary category? --NieA7 08:49, 18 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Linking to a category that contains un-approved builds is no better than linking to the unnapproved builds themselves. Also, this could set a precedent of cluttering the wiki with these types of categories for other guides, not a good solution.
 * Either press for approval on at least one build, or simply link to the Builds article for now. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 08:53, 18 July 2006 (CDT)


 * It's better inasmuch as linking to a specific build gives it implicit approval - it's the equivilent of giving somebody a plumber's name when they ask for a recommendation, rather than pointing them towards a phone book. I don't think it would be clutter if it were only a temporary measure, although I can why other would think that it would be. I am aware of only two guides that include specific builds (MM and Trapper): even if there are more this is a specific response to a specific problem, I don't see why it would set anything other than a very limited precedent.
 * I'll link to the builds page as a whole for now. I'm sorry if I've sounded tetchy, it's just frustrating: a plan of action was drawn up for the MM guide over several days, during which nobody objected to what was suggested. Now I come to do it I'm finding that pages are being deleted - by people who took part in the discussion - before they can even be completed. --NieA7 09:04, 18 July 2006 (CDT)


 * OK, next question - how do I go about promoting builds? I stuck a couple of mine up a while ago, what else should I be doing to get them approved? Ditto for any other good MM builds out there. --NieA7 15:13, 18 July 2006 (CDT)

In the past ppl have made categories - Mo/R builds was an example, these were all shot down so I'm going from that, and if a type of builds needs its own category we're going wrong somewhere, all the MM builds can be cut down into a couple &mdash; Skuld  09:05, 18 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I agree there are too many MM builds - that was part of the reason why I created a temporary category in the first place, it'd give testers a simple page they could go to to see which builds needed voting on one way or another. Concentrates the mind and all that. Once it'd been narrowed down to a couple there'd be no need for a category any more.
 * On an unrelated note how do you make comments on the talk page so that the Recent Changes shows that handy dandy little arrow that links directly to the section you modified? --NieA7 09:11, 18 July 2006 (CDT)
 * type /* Why it was Created */, or just press the little "edit" button next to the section name on the page for auto-text :) &mdash; Skuld  09:16, 18 July 2006 (CDT)


 * What, this button? --NieA7 09:26, 18 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Bwa ha ha, it works ^.^ Now I've just gotta remember to tick the minor edit box... --NieA7 09:27, 18 July 2006 (CDT)

Violation of "Don't immediately delete" policy?
How is the deletion of this page consistent with "Don't immediately delete"? The page was up less than 24 hours, was unfinished (and hence ineligible for deletion according to Criteria for deletion), was a temporary measure as described above and on Talk:General minion mastery guide and I very definitely had a dissenting opinion as to whether it should be deleted. I said what I intended to do on the MM talk page and nobody objected there, or indeed anywhere else at any point up to and including now - if anybody has a problem with what was suggested it would be useful if they said so, rather than removing all the unfinished work before I've had a chance to draw it all together.

To date virtually all the changes I have made in an effort to tidy up the MM guide have been deleted or reverted. I've tried to explain what I'm doing and why but all that has been ignored in preference of deleting content almost as soon as it has gone up. Admins are busy I'm sure, but it would be much appreciated if they could talk before acting and look before removing. --NieA7 08:30, 18 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Sorry NieA7, I thought I did explain >< memory failing me in old age. GW:DID poses as an official policy but it has had input in from about 2 people &mdash; Skuld  09:07, 18 July 2006 (CDT)
 * none of the builds that were in the guide were good enough to stand on their own in the first place, that's why they were rolled into the guide to begin with. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 10:32, 18 July 2006 (CDT)


 * If they're too crappy to stand on their own then why should they have been put in a guide which is where a starter would go first? That's really bizarre - "here's how to get started, here's an outdated build that doesn't work". Since we've got a nice builds section I don't see why full builds should appear in any other articles on the site really. --NieA7 10:52, 18 July 2006 (CDT)
 * at the time, that is, pre verata's nerf, all those builds were vaild, thou not especially unique. now they are not, game updates tend to do that. the basic army master was my MM build of preference, but now it's a pretty weak skillset --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 11:15, 18 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Didn't mean to say they were always bad, just that they should have been updated or removed as part of a guide even more so than as a stand alone build. If nothing else the builds get a real chewing over, plus they get removed or changed real fast after a nerf. --NieA7 15:11, 18 July 2006 (CDT)
 * again, at the time, i was working on cleaning up all the MM builds and the gmmg, much as you are now. those builds fit into the Gmmg more then they stood on their own. the pages have been deleted for cleanliness, but they were mostly unfavored or untested, and all focusing on being MMplus. most of the time the plus was a bad fit. i pulled what i could from those builds, and moved them into the Gmmg. i was very happy with the guide prior to Verata's Nerf.
 * after the pre-factions nerf, i was pretty disgusted with necromancers in general, and washed my hands of the whole thing (to the point of putting on the gmmg). so these builds are no worse off for their time in the gmmg. they were on the verge of delete before, and they're deleted now.
 * my necromancer still doesn't get the same use as prior to verata's nerf. it was yesterday, some three months into factions, before i upgraded my face scars to the new designs, for no other reason then to complete Necromancer_Headgear. i would play necromancer a lot more if they would simply remove the minion cap. it's artifical and annoying. i can't see that happening, thou, as MM would go back to it's position as ruler of alliance battles. the presense of counters (Ray of Judgement might as well have use against MM in the skill discription) seems to be... pointedly ignored... by the skill ballance people when anyone talks about the minion cap. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 15:45, 18 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I would be happy at a higher PvE cap so as not to get abused bcos lets face it, you could solo a lot of missions in cantha! &mdash; Skuld  15:48, 18 July 2006 (CDT)
 * my complaint about the minion cap is the hard limit. 10 = ok, 11 = you just wasted 10 energy on an animate spell that did you no good. blood of the master is a good limiting factor. makes people slow down with bigger armies. Make all minions succeptable to all conditions, suddenly disease is an effective counter to MM armies. the minion cap is "cheating" to make life easy on mission designers and other people who don't want to think of effective counters. now i'm just ranting, and it's your fault.  thank you skuld. ;p --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 16:52, 18 July 2006 (CDT)