Talk:Shadow Form

Archived conversations.

New SF, Bugged?
I tried this as 55hp sin with prot spirit, but i keep getting 5 dmg. The discription says it causes 5 dmg reduction for every assassin enchantment on you (wich includes Shadow Form itself), but even with a second enchantment i do not gain the damage reduction. Please fix this Anet. 82.73.139.17 13:40, February 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, sorry, my bad. Forgot that the damage is first reduced by SF and then by protective spirit. 82.73.139.17 14:16, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

Shadow Form
Can't be maintained by eles anymore me thinks.... lasts 22.8 seconds at 13 shadow arts with 20% mod, recharge is 22.5 with all the right skills, both rounded up to 23 seconds
 * Erm... It seems that this nerf is just designed to stop the ele's using it. If my maths are right then the sins are still gonna be perma. Can anyone confirm my maths? Wild...  This is Cake Townz!  14:36, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I can not confirm your math, but thats exactly how/why it was nerfed, to make it very hard for non sins to keep it up perm.Durga Dido 14:38, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * 14 shadow arts is minimum for maintaining now w/ GoS and Deadly Paradox Kurtan 14:41, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Dev notes ftw &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 14:44, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Dev notes ftw. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 18:56, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Diff ftfw. (Not all paragraphs line up perfectly, but it's better than tabbing back and forth.) &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 19:34, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I haven't laughed so hard in a long time. Thank you both[[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke Mekko 20:13, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Best. Update. Notes. Ever! 98.219.48.111 00:14, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Shadow Form - Nerf
The last update was designed to slow down the dominate farmers of Guild Wars, the perma. With Shadow Arts at 16, even with a consumable, the day of the Perma is over.

I've experimented with several Perma Builds, even with 71 Energy, it is impossible to maintain Shadow Form indefinitely. The cycle time of Shadow Form consumes your energy at a phenominal rate.

Thumbs Down on this update.

Developers involved with Updates lost their focus, this is a game. We play this for enjoyment.
 * I just got this skill too... Regardless, I think less farming is good.--Siyth 13:47, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I am sorry, i do not entirely agree anet has been able to kill one more fun build to use. i cannot, i WILL not beleive there is no way arround the energy appetite the skill now has, i have just been in GTOB outside the temple, trying to maintain a perma SF with AE and have discovered my energy to become 0 after 3 minutes of being a perma.... sure you have a 1 second margin before you have to activate the echoed SF to stay alive, sure this, shure that. I say srew it all. Especially coz of the energy chomping this skill now does to ya... just go mesmerway, much much more effective... in some instances all you need are dolts and channeling, in others you need signets for energy regen... and lets all be honest. EVERY instance has a safe spot here or there especially once you killed off more or less all the population in the area... so its not over its just not for nubcakes anymore.... gg anet on this one they rly did it.... BUT they could at least bring back full damage instead of reducing it.... well thats it... ill continue to chomp on raptors as channeling usually works on those dolts... but please.... ANET if you can hear this, stop killing professions... necros got uber butfucked in the last year, no more soul reaping and no more minion factories, i said ok, then you killed ritualists, i said let them be... then you messed with the 55 for a long fucking time before reverting it back and i was patient... now for the last time stop. killing. professions! sin elites are sucky to begin with and then you go and kill the one parading shining star.... GG but like i said.... not killed, more like maimed to make it more pr0 when ppl use it... still up to the nubcakes to decide.... ill go on and adapt... i allways have... Humble Servitor
 * If you're just going to Adapt(IoW; real-creativity be damned, you're just gonna roll the NEXT FotM on down the line)... and it takes over 3 minutes for you to run out of energy currently... then what exactly do you actually have to complain about here? Want some mood-Music?...Here, lem'me give ya a hand!, Hurrrrr --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](05,Jan.'09)
 * Three minutes? on an A/Me? yesh i beleive ya... and no i am not entirely unhappy about this AS I SAID before... this is not the worst thing that happened it just made SF pr0 for more coordinated ppl to use... im just obviously ranting about the entire situation... ANet made a game and instead of balancing other clases to the level of say soul reaping imbaness they just took the essential working part of an entire profession and demolished it... now you tell me you arent pissed because of what they did, most of the nurfs were okay so far... but i think they are getting a bit outta hand here and there... in the last year alone they demolished SF from uber imbaness to well.... three minutes of some semi dmging shit... not to mention you do have to cast other stuff to kill people... no-one just tanks anymore.... but like i said, just made it so pr0 ppl can go there and noobs cant.... im not entirely unhappy, im just crappy coz i made an uber build 48h before the update and now i have to reconfigure some of the things for it to work again... otherwise i dont rly care.... they returned imbaness to the 55 again... so why should i care? :DHumble Servitor
 * Well, atleast you're honest about it... Kudos.(Though you still seem to be missing the larger picture). --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]
 * I am willing to understand, but i guess i am a dumb shmuck in the economycs department and the social department... so if you can take the time to explain.... btw, if peeps dont mind the 0.7sec margin for SF with AE perma you can srsly get arround the whole not enough energy thing... auspicious incantation, ftw!Humble Servitor
 * Hahaha, nice try. You don't have to take my word for it either, just know that it took me over a decade (and countless resources) thrown at these people just to get a grasp on it. So I'm not about to just fork it over that easy.  OTH, reading Shard's "translation" article is a good primer for understanding parts of it ;) --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]

have your cake and eat it too
''"We have decided to try one last time to scale down the effectiveness of Shadow Form while still allowing it to be maintained permanently." (from update notes).'' Come on now... grow a pair and commit to one course of action for the skill. It's too "muddy" now. Maintain this skill as a blatantly easy farming/running method that will be used and abused, or revert it back to it's original "all or nothing" concept. Skill skitzophrenia is can confuse the community and not let them know if a usage for a skill they're going to train on and love will still be around with the next update. Which in turn encourages players to exploit the more "broken" builds now, in fear of them not being around later. So choose a path and stick to it ANet. And path, such as the following, would be fine: Make up your minds, and ____ or get off the pot ANet. --Mooseyfate 20:35, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * LET (accept it) shadow form be a EASY (perma), QUICK (why make things boring?) way to run or farm things that can't break through it.
 * Fix consumables, not skills. One should question the necessity of anything that can't be used the same on pve and pvp.
 * Go with the original intent of shadow form. High immunity and UNALTERED damage for a limited time, followed by great vulnerability.  I remember fondly using various classes to charge in, do your damage, and charge out or die.  Epidimizes the assassin idea.  Was also usable, but not broken, on multiple classes.  This would be longer duration, and longer recharge, and wouldn't require pve/pvp variations.


 * People use broken builds not because their previous broken builds were nerfed, but because the defense an 8-man team yields is too high. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  21:16, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I completely agree with Mooseyfate - it's the best comment about Shadowform and against perma shadow by far. This is what Shadowform once was, and should revert back to. Permashadow has effectively ruined some areas, like Tomb of primeval kings where there's no chance of getting a team at all because of all the A/E out there. And permashadow is too boring and tedious to play for the casual gamer, like me - I rather try at cooperative gaming in difficult areas than mastering a tedious, repetitive, boring solo build. 84.104.80.120 18:11, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

skill revamp idea
now everyone who iv seen talk about this skill has been either complaining about how it is (now)maintainable, or about it being nerfed.well I have an idea, instead of it being a "god mode" as it is now, what about makeing it into a shealth mode, which say ends when you use an attack or spell? make the enchantment maintained (-1 pip of energy) with say 30 sec recharge, and add +damage to the next attack used, stacking with an attack skill. i think this fits with the assassins theme nciely, because it would allow the assassin to "sneak" up in his/her opponment, and then strike a very powerful blow. to keep this balenced, it would have to be no more powerful at avadeing damage as it is now, however puting an end on next attack or skill clause would stop it beign abused by anything other than runners, which can just as easily be done useing other methods anyway. but make it so the +damage can only be used with attacks, and not spells to prevent assa-casters from useing it. to simply fy that ramble:

shadowform

energy 10(?) cast 1s recharge 30s(?)-1pip of energy

elite maintained enchantment

while under the effects of shadow form you cannot be the target of hostile spells or attacks. when shadowform ends you strike for +x..xx damage. shadowform ends when you hit with an attack or use a skill.

an ims or shadowstep would be cool for getting you to your enemy faster to assassinate it would be fitting, but too abusable by runners i think. what does the guild wars community think of this idea for shadow form? it is open to suggestions Artemis the ranger 20:31, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I honestly don't see any legitimate "Purpose" for this skill in the first place. Vow of Silence is also "Perma" but it doesn't make you immune to physical contact like this silly Elite does.  Why is that an issue? ...because certain Enchantments still trigger even when physical contact was never made with you.  It just doesn't fit any kind of balanced "Ethereal" or Martial Arts concept.  The previous poster is right, a Shadow Form is something that should completely conceal your presence UNTIL you attack... once you reveal your true location, you should be vulnerable to something and attacks against you that fail, should not be triggering defensive enchantments.  Put in simple terms, it's just out of step with everything that makes sense in this game --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]

Take #2

 * Also... the Loss of nearly all your Health makes no sense either, here's a better idea:


 * Shadow Form: Elite Skill. Lose all Enchantments. For 10....25..30 seconds, you cannot be the target of Hostile Spells or Attacks and you cannot cast Enchantments. This skill ends when you Attack or use an Attack Skill.  End effect: For 10 seconds  < > , but spells and touch skills targeting you fail. In "Ninja terms", this would prevent you from using buffing "ChiJutsu's" but still allow you to cast GenJutsus and ShadowSteps while ending completely if you engage with a TaiJutsu. --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](29,Dec.'08)


 * Fyi, Sliver is supposed to trigger even when there has been no physical contact. Blocked attacks trigger it, too. The main reason it's so imba, is because monsters in PvE have no counter. Barely anything farmworthy has Sig of Disench, heavy touch skills, or strong PBAoE. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  22:50, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The reason it's 'Imba' is because it ignores every single concept of Cause & Effect. Shadow Form is basically phase shifting you into another Dimension so that nothing from this Realm is able to affect you... yet some Enchantments like Sliver are still being triggered even though there is no possible way that the trigger-ers are actually affecting you in any way.  It's biggest effing Shark-Jump I've ever seen, and this is coming from a /Rule34/-tard! --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]

Take #3
ifaik your right about slither, however slither is not the skill we are here to discuss. the piont of my propossal, was to revive the concept of an assasin, that is to be a sneaky little sod, and appear at the last minute to absolutely slaughter something. but generaly that something is only one something, not an entire angry mob of for example baby raptors. and as a balence idea for my idea on how you could alter shadow form to make it an interesting option, adding -1 energy/second as well as the -1pip would be necesary (and possibley an ends if your energy reaches 0 clause, this however could also be achived with -4pips off regen.), not only to help prevent possible abuses that could arise, but also being able to maintain what is effectivly invulnerability, should have a high energy cost attached to it. and my inspiration for this idea coems from a stealth mode skill, the name escapes me, of the unlockable character of balders gate :dark alliance 2, the character artemis has a similar skill, which drains his energy a vast amount, but monsters are totaly ignoreant of his presence until he attacks, and when he attacks he deals a huge amount of damage to whomever he hits. and something along the lines of that is what i would personaly like to see. Artemis the ranger 23:06, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * You can't have the concept of an assassin in the Guild Wars setting without it being too powerful. An assassin should be able to kill in one combo, otherwise they are no longer assassins but warriors. That won't work though because of balance issues. You can not balance a true assassin class in a world like GW. There are simply too many issues at hand. For example, an assassin can move through shadows to a target, well why can't they target a tree and be able to teleport all over the place. There is no need for an assassin to do anything except teleport around as long as they have energy. As for running why run, when you can easily shadow step around anything. These concepts will not work because of the idea of balance. I created an assassin early because I thought it would be similar to Nightcrawler from the X-Men. Well that was laughable when I realized that apparently I am only capable of teleporting to an enemy and yet completely unable to target any other shadow I might want to step to. There are a few skills that target an ally, and a few that target random locations. Why random locations to be honest? Why can I not choose to shadow step to a shadow in front of me rather than to the side? It seems odd that a class devoted to the idea of martial arts, evasion, stealth, and a killing blow has very little to do with any of those things. If you look at the Assassin as it is in GW, then you will see that Shadow Form is one of a VERY few skills that actually fits the class. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke MekkoMy Talk Page 23:21, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

a valid piont teneke, assassins are a very hard profession to balence within guild wars. but s it stands, shadowform basicly turns you into a fighting shadow, which does not promote imaginative play, nor is it the way of the assassin to be a liveing shadow, assassisn live within shadows, but do not control shadows themselves. thus the assassin profession should be able to hide, and then strike. and no, assassins in general cannot simply shadow step everywhere. in no game or mythological book/film or even in myths and legends are assassins capable of such feets. if you wish to play as nightcrawler, go buy an x-men game. it is also not plausable to give much more structure to where an assassin could shadowstep in GW! because the levels are only 2 dimentional, they have no hight as such, such as its common knoledge that a warrior on top of a bridge can fight a warrior below the bridge. however, from my prospective, assassins hdie in the shadows then reveal themselves and strike. not be the living shadow that shadow form currently is. while i said i am open to suggestions, i mean on hwo the skill could be make into something more interesting to use, not suggestions of why it is a mindless god mode skill, that is a topic that has been exhausted many times over to no avail.Artemis the ranger 23:33, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think you understood my point. The point is that Assassins are not just hard, but impossible to balance properly with the current limitations of Guild Wars. That is why so many of the Assassin skills are currently stuck in buffandnerf. I admittedly do not know a great amount about the history of assassins, snipers yes, assassins no. Yet in a fantasy world the history of something from the real world means nothing. I guess it would be better to imagine the class is not named Assassin but rather Vicodin class. Now Vicodin class has the ability to teleport to an enemy, to an ally or to a random location. Please explain to me why then Vicodin can not teleport behind the wall in front of them, or for that matter onto that wall? My point there is that again the game is too limited to properly implement the class. You agreed with this, but I don't think you understand that was my point about why Assas Vicodins can not just shadow step anywhere. I agree with you on some points, but I think you are missing a very big point. The main reason that Vicodins have Shadow Form is because the rest of their skills and abilities would not be available. Take for example, the classic use of poisons. Now in this fantasy world a character can simply wait long enough and the poison will go away. Yet in the real world it was never that easy. A Vicodin using proper poison could kill quite effectively. I am pretty sure you already agree to that. I do not think it matters one way or another what any of us think though. I don't see any reason why Assassin's shouldn't have Shadow Form. I don't see any good reasons listed above either. It just seems like a few people are upset that the class is so efficient at farming. As for your suggestion, it wouldn't make sense in Guild Wars. The character basically loses a ton of energy but in return the first attack does a huge amount of damage. The problem with that is Guild Wars is build about limits to damage. You could not have an assassin pull off a one hit kill. It would completely break the balance of the game. Shadow Form right now works for farming, but in pvp it is ridiculous. The skill is balanced, and your idea would not be. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke MekkoMy Talk Page 08:08, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I actually HAVE played a series of fully Free-Teleporting "Assassins" in a 3-D PvE and PvP environment but this was in City of Heroes. (for those familiar with the game, the two classes were an "EA" Stalker and an Electric "Blapper"). And free- movement Teleporting was a very "clunky system" that in the end had created more imbalances for PvP (and inconveniences in PvE) than it ever Solved.  Infact the "D.C. Universe" game coming out next seems to have taken that lessen to heart as they appear to be omitting  Teleporting entirely from their Game and I don't blame them.  The mere concept of allowing ANY class the ability to kill another player in 5-seconds or less, while Teleporting all over the place, is the DEFINITION of poor game design... just as much so as giving that same class the ability to Disappear entirely or become un-affected by 90% of every other class's skills.(even if only for a very brief time).  No matter how it's tweaked, these mechanics will still be abused or just plain frustrate everyone else who must fight through more conventional means.  And that's the danger of ANY design that is too Binary.  So Tenk is dead on here, the very Concept of an Assassin is way too binary because they're more Mythos than Human and they always have been.  The only way to fix this issue is for Anet to get on with GW2 and add a much more Original Spiking class that is also easier to counter (but more versatile in general like the Dervish and Necro).  If I was them, I'd start by centering that class' primary function around Debuffing in Melee so that their Target merely becomes totally Helpless rather than totally Dead :p --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]

so...
despite this update being a few months old i see no real shift in the price of anything related to perma sf. what did this achieve besides slightly bumping up the cost of a zealous scythe snathe?LongCat 23:57, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You just made me a sad panda cuz the only zealous Snath I have is on a Deldrimor Green :( --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](30,Jan.'09)
 * Deldrimor Shear is srs bsns. D: I've seen very small price increases (temporary no doubt) and mostly just a lot of angry players. Conclusion: update didn't really fix anything. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 00:35, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Wait, people expected this to change prices? I am out of the opinion business, but still. Why would a change to SF like this change prices on things like ectos. Oh, I get it, the people at Anet thought that the only way to farm ectos was with permasin. Wow, sad.[[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke MekkoMy Talk Page 06:46, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Well if you go to Tomb of the Primeval Kings, about all you'll see is A/E and A/Me farmers. Sometimes there are b/p groups and such but they are rare these days. Heck, even if you go to a place like Temple of the Ages, there are usually lots of Permasins. So while it may not be the only way, it was one of the most noticeable/popular. It seems like nerfing the build would lead to a decrease in farming and an increase in prices, but since it wasn't enough to totally stop the build (just slowed it down yet again), and because people can always move on to use another build, nothing much happened. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 06:51, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It seems like nerfing the build would lead to a decrease in farming and an increase in prices, but since it wasn't enough to totally stop the build (just slowed it down yet again), and because people can always move on to use another build, nothing much happened. I agree. That is why I really don't get the reasoning behind the slow downs on this build. If it were the only build capable of farming these I could understand. In fact I would more than understand, I would be happy they keep nerfing it. I am not into the whole only one build can do this way of thinking. I am more along the lines of providing multiple useful ways for each class. For example if class x can farm here good, lets make a good place for class y etc. No real need for classism. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke MekkoMy Talk Page 07:48, 31 January 2009 (UTC)


 * VwK needs a max triggers per second/per 3 seconds (ala Soul Reaping) and WWA needs a cap on amount of enemies hit. Voici, ecto price drops? Meh. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  09:47, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Or they could mix in These things + This to the over-farmed mob groups --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](31,Jan.'09)
 * Ah, but they did that in UW before, and too many people complained, so they reverted it. :\ [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 20:56, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Yeah but ya gotta consider the timing, they THEY still thought they could reel Perma-SF's in more. Meanwhile there's plenty of enchant based "God-Builds" that would just take it's place if it if Perma wasn't possible. --ilr (02,Feb.'09)

Skill Recharge...
I'm going to risk making myself look ridiculous here, but I have to ask. I've been (reluctantly) using SF in its various permutations for years, and I have never once seen a HSR of spells kick in. Is this skill exempt? Am I overlooking something obvious? I was watching for it carefully for 2-3 hours of barrel runs earlier... Am I just incredibly unlucky? Sisipherr 16:25, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, probably. I've seen it often enough. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 18:01, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Since you said it's possible, I wandered into Isle of Nameless and marked down my attempts.  47 casts, 47 full recharges.  Something is seriously wonky here...  Yep, SF must hate me as much as I hate it. [[Image:Sisipherr sig image.jpg|19px]]Sisipherr  12:25, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I've never had any HSR trigger on SF either.--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir 12:27, 20 February 2009 (UTC)


 * If you're using it with Glyph of Swiftness and Deadly Paradox, it's no miracle it never happens, since you're at the HSR cap. Did you merely cast Shadow Form? Also, I have seen HSRs during runs (perma is slow for runs if you only need to avoid snare spells, which non-perma does fine). --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  12:55, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Probably was, as the shorter recharge would make the experiment take less time :P --> Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 13:00, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Ahai! HSR cap would do it. I only considered that in terms of no longer having a chance of quartering time on a 40/40 set, not in conjunction with skills.  Well, pish to all the people who say you need the 20% HSR for perma. [[Image:Sisipherr sig image.jpg|19px]]Sisipherr  18:45, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Glitch?
Somehow Shadowform is getting removed if I try to use it to run outside of Cavalon. Can someone else please try this and see what the hell is happening and how this spell is getting removed? Dagotta 04:17, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Nevermind. I figured out it was Expunge Enchantments used by the Creeping Carp. Note to self: don't run there! Dagotta 04:24, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I had that too, but it's quite runnable there, you just have to run around them. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 07:46, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The Creeping Carp have Dash, it can be rather difficult sometimes. :\ Entropy [[Image:Entropy Sig 2.jpg]] (C) 07:54, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "run around" the classic runner skill, that was lost with the rise of the perma. You avoid all mobs if possible. Also, this + this makes for a good run away combo. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 07:57, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm aware. But you just can't avoid some of them, and even with Dark Escape up, they can still manage to tag you. It just takes them getting into range once, and you're dead. I mean, I have run through before, but it's just not worth the trouble for most parts of Jade Sea... Entropy [[Image:Entropy Sig 2.jpg]] (C) 08:26, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, although I seem to recall running my assa everywhere. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 10:43, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Change the AI?
If Anet can change Ai react to RoJ differently, why can't they do the same with SF? For example if AI was changed so that if you have SF on they won't target you, since you will be invisible in the shadows so to speak, then most farming and speed clears using permas would be more difficult if not impossible. Doing so would prevent sliver and balling up mobs for spikes but still allow permas to be used as runners or dealing direct damage. Girl is a guy 7:52, 06 July 2009 (CDT)
 * Heh, most clever Solution I've seen yet ...Nerf QQ'ers would be deprived of direct claims to nerfitude --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](6,July.'09)
 * Not sure if you have SF lately but it wouldn't really make it more difficult at all. In fact in several areas I farm it would make the farm faster and easier. Take farming feathers, it would make it easier because you could attack build up adrenaline then disease the entire area without once pulling agro. That would also allow for farming areas that currently aren't farmable. Imagine how easy it would be to farm destroyer cores if the destroyers just stood there. You could effectively run just about any mission in any campaign. Anything that you can't degen to death with bleeding/poison/disease would then be easy prey for the SF dagger build. From the perspective of a sf farmer I would welcome this change. You don't seem to realize that enemies attacking you and activating skills actually slows down SF farming. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]  Tenetke Mekko    My Talk 04:12, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Sliver farming is significantly more effective because it can take on things that outheal simple degen. Entropy [[Image:Entropy Sig 2.jpg]] (C) 05:54, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * What do you sliver farm. If you are referring to UW then, well no sliver is inefficient compared to the old way. The old way is only a bad option because of the use of enemies skills. Take away their ability to attack you or use skills and it is easy. If you mean the raptor cave, well degen farming is already faster than sliver farming. If you mean certain boss farms, then it might be a bit slower, but most of the bosses that you can't degen down already have issues with sliver. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]  Tenetke Mekko    My Talk 06:40, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I suggested this mostly to make speed clears harder/slower, but in hindsight there would be some undesired consequences. UW for example some areas where clearing is required like at the start and vale would be slower without balling + sliver/aoe would be slower areas where the quests is to kill something like in pools would be pretty simple. Although mountains would be more difficult. T1 and T2 would have a stroll in the park at FOW lol. Girl is a guy 7:25, 07 July 2009 (CDT)
 * I can understand why you made the suggestion. I used to want them to change sf so that speed clears aren't like they are. In the end though I realized that as long as there is even the remote ability speed clears are going to happen. If not SF then a tera tank, if not that then something else. So I have given up on that, and I simply accept it as part of the game. I like the uw, its hard to find a group unless you are of a certain build. That is just the way things have been for awhile, and will probably be as long as guildwars is around. Certain builds can do certain areas, and gl finding a group if you don't fit in. I think that was probably the best thing about Ursan, I could load it on my warrior/ele etc and enjoy parts of the game where usually finding a group is difficult. I can understand why Ursan was nerfed, I even partly agree with it, but it killed part of the game. Not really a surprise, everyone knew that it would turn some areas into a ghost town. In the end it was probably a change for the better. Now the devs have a decision to make. Do they change SF. If they do it could really be the final nail in guildwars. They have tried making changes but people find ways around them or move on to other areas. So they will eventually be forced to confront the monster they have made. If they mess up SF now, certain areas will pretty much become empty shells. There isn't a silver bullet for it though. Any changes are going to have huge side effects. They could remove essence of celerity from the game, that would change things for sure. Not by much though. They could remove SF, and again it wouldn't change much. When thinking about things like SF they shouldn't really consider nerfing SF anymore. Maybe they should consider changing the functionality of skills in other classes to allow them more interesting choices. Right now all you see is the same sc groups because there isn't much variety available. Anet has a habbit of buffandnerf. Instead of going "hey we are going to pick one skill from each class and make it really cool in certain areas". An example if they gave monks a skill tied to divine favor that did something like lightbringers gaze but to any undead or demonic foe. Interrupt and they take damage. Then gave mesmers a fast casting skill that let turn one pve mob to their side for its duration. These aren't meant to be serious just as an idea of the different things they can do. I hope what I wrote above didn't discourage you about making suggestions on the wiki. When I wrote my replies above I meant them as a way of informing you of the unforeseen circumstances that could happen. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]  Tenetke Mekko    My Talk 12:59, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Glitch (not see image))
Sorry, ahead just so you notice i am not going to sign, because i dont remember my password... but after extensive testing today it is no longer possible to maintain Shadow form with Glyph of Swiftness and Deadly Paradox and a 20% Enchant mod. With 15 Shadow Arts, i still get about a 6 second overlap... If any of you want to confirm this go ahead, but i spent the last hour trying to figure our why my perma sin wont perma...


 * Added heading, and I just tested this for you. As you can see it is possible, not sure if you were hitting them in the right order or not. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke 05:58, 11 August 2009 (UTC)



- Thanks for all of the help ( both formatting and testing ). When i tried again tonight i found that i could once again permanently maintain shadow form. Apparently there was either a quick glitch, or i am retarted... but thanks again for the help
 * Don't be so hard on yourself. I don't think it was a glitch, probably just a skill usage timed wrong or something. It happens to everyone. I wouldn't use the build in the pic btw, it isn't very good except for a few things in the game. If you need any help figuring out what the problem was post a screen here. One time I had issues with it not lasting as long then I remember I simply had the wrong mask on. GL to you though. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke 03:38, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Fixing shadowform AND the economy
Why doesn't ANet do it? Make it easily maintainable like before, and add Signet of Disenchantment to all elite areas like S-Exile, UW, etc. and add "while affected by Shadowform, you cannot be the target of enchantments" This way, smallscale farming for things like greens and running to different areas won't be such a nuisance anymore, and "rare" stuff like Voltaic Spear, Chest Greens, Ectos, etc stays rare and expensive. Geez, it's really not like Shadowform is impenetratable, they just have to add the right skills to the right monsters -- 06:06, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * because adding skills like that to to monsters in those elite areas would cause huge problems for any group not just sf groups. The problem isn't dealing with sf, it is dealing with sf while not completely screwing groups from doing those areas. Imagine your proposed fix, it would screw most forms of prot completely. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke 06:30, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Why try to save elite areas but destroy everything else in the game? The reason why ArenaNet can't fix the game economy is quite simple, however.  Quizzical 06:42, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I can't agree, this game does have an economy just like WoW and any other MMO. The only difference is that you pay for looks and looks alone. In WoW someone might want to have that über leet hammer of epic destruction that has 10 DPS more and looks badass to top it off. But here, people want stuff because it looks badass, or because they're jerks without any sense of fashion whatsoever who just want to display how much money they spent (see Monk). Anyways, the "need" for items is there, because noone seriously likes running around with PvP Daggers aka 2 unidentifyable blackish sticks. --[[Image:Takisig2.png]] 09:49, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I rather think a foe losing all energy and resorting to wanding and maybe 2 skills every 15 seconds would not hurt balanced groups much. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 09:58, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Plus the AI could probably easily be programmed to use it only on A/ people. --[[Image:Takisig2.png]] 10:00, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * PvE monsters have additional energy regen. Regardless, Anet doesn't want to stop SF, at all, ever. Why did they only add SoDis to ~half the spectres in UW? Because they never meant to stop SF. Why is it still maintainable, despite a lot of hate and rage? They want it maintainable and the cheapest way possible to farm anything. They even said they want it like it is now in a Dev update note. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  11:53, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * They actually said that it was clearing mobs too fast and that's what they're actually trying to slow down, without removing it's ability to be "Perma". But even so, the new head dev says she thinks about nerfing it EVERY update.  Meanwhile if you actually look at just how many things can still get through Shadowform, it's pretty easy to see just how many ways it could be heavily nerfed indirectly simply by changing skillbars on any number of mobs (which is exactly what they're going to try again). --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](11,Aug.'09)


 * Yes, you can add Winds of Disenchantment to every Derv mob and SoDisench to every Mesmer etc. and SF is completely stopped. You're screwing everyone, rather than just one build, though. From the top of my head, only Paraway doesn't rely on enchantments, and that got completely destroyed last update (Finale of Resto is battered and along with one SoR the only heal in the general setup. GFG). If they want to end SF farming, kill SF. Not enchantments in PvE. Raw healing won't stop instakills, prots do. Prots are enchantments. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  00:57, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Viper man do you ever feel like you are trying to explain quantum mechanics to a penguin when explaining this stuff. These people probably have never been in an elite pve area. Otherwise they would know about prots vs heals. I tried to give them an example of why it was bad by putting it in terms they could understand about the spamming of blind, or interrupts. As for the comment about this skill making them wand, well let's take a look. In the The Foundry of Failed Creations the typical enemies are level 28. How can you possibly imagine that adding Signet of Disenchantment is a good idea. Do you have any idea how hard these guys hit? If they added signet to Margonite Anur Kaya there would be no way to stop the complete owning of entire groups at a time. As for them targeting only Assassins with it, I don't think that is possible. Even if it was you are taking a class that is already enchantment dependent and turning them into complete waste of space. I mean it isn't like the creatures there don't have a skill that makes them do double damage, oh, wait. Besides if the people at Anet have enough time to sit around and debate what to do about SF, then they have enough time to fix some bugs. Sure last update was nice, but that was only a small amount of them. Then if they run out of bugs, not going to happen, they can try to pay a little more attention to their servers because lag is getting freaking horrible. Then, after the game is playable, they can worry about "oh noooosss, there is just too many of (insert random over priced looks like candy item's name here) and we should nerf SF to death" . I know I have been saying the same thing for awhile, and maybe they are starting to listen to all the people that want more bug fixes. I mean how old is prophecies, and they are just now fixing bugs in it. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke 03:36, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Still for adding SoD to mesmer mobs. Program them to only use it on Shadow Form. It's quite easy to program. For example mesmers in AB, they won't use Shatter Enchantment on you unless you are actually enchanted. So the code for checking for enchantments is there, all they need to add is a specific check for Shadowform, finished. They can do a lot of things that weren't believed to be doable, like scaling knockdown length. It's not that hard. And I'm actually getting tired that warriors and dervishes have no place in "elite groups" because of SF tanks. --[[Image:Takisig2.png]] 03:45, 12 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I wasn't referring to simply appending more and more crap on top of their already deadly Skillbars, I was talking about Trade-Offs. If they have less raw damage/denial skills to spam, then you don't need to stack a buncha prots on your Tanks in the First place. ...And if the devs would ever get around to making Energy-Denial and Touch-Denial a REAL counter against PvE Mobs, maybe all the Enchant stripping (which by it's very nature is Energy-Intensive) would also be curved by Groups of players actually playing together with a healthy balance of Classes (like Paragons, Dervs, and Mesmers mixed in for instance) instead of just Nukers piled upon Hexers piled on Monks...  Pfft, Quantum Mech, get over yourself. --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](12,Aug.'09)
 * Ah, the trolls have come out to play. Since I am not that into wiki drama I am done with the conversation. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke 21:41, 12 August 2009 (UTC)


 * If the problem is that shadow form is too powerful, then the solution is to nerf shadow form. Trying to rebalance everything else in the game around shadow form being too powerful will mean going through many broken iterations of skills before we get to anything reasonable.  Quizzical 21:50, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Not to mention that your proposed method of fixing SF farming is pretty much the very definition of power creep. You know, the philosophy that if something's overpowered, you should make other things equally/more overpowered to counter it instead of nerfing what's overpowered --Gimmethegepgun 22:11, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Not if they only use their given SoD against shadow form exclusively. They could also make a different monster skill that reads "Lose specific enchantments" or something which will strip only shadowform and Obsidian Flesh for example, sort of like this one. Or anything else that's overpowered for farming. Now add that to all elite areas and bosses that they don't want to be farmable and buff shadowform back up.--[[Image:Takisig2.png]] 07:27, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Or... they could nerf SF, instead of using some bullshit workaround --Gimmethegepgun 07:47, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes I think the nerfng of Shadow form would be the right thing to do. I also hate seeing comments like "uwsc for everrrrrrrrr" or "good bye ursan. Now we have perma sins!! LoLOOLlOOL *evil laugh*" (though ursan was a bad thing as well and among many other things I hated it aswell >_<) And I personally would love to see how the economy would change when 50% of the player base lost their only way to farm :P Alatar the Red 10:50, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think they know that nerfing shadow form would do more harm for guild wars than it ever will good. Right now the game is working on 5 years. Yet it simply hasn't fared as well as other games that age. I used to be of the opinion that sf should get nerfed, and uwsc are horrible, but I really took a look at the state of GW. Population is down, interest is next to none, a great many people are only sticking around to work on titles for guild wars 2. You may not like it but SF makes getting things for that title easier, just not too easy. It is just hard enough to keep people from giving up on their title, but just easy enough to keep them going. GW2 doesn't have the big name of games that will be releasing near it. Like Knights of the Old Republic mmo, Star Trek online, etc. So if it hopes to make it then it is going to need a player base already set to buy the game. They made a mistake with Ursan, they know they did, and lots of people left. The big problem with Ursan was that it did it's job too well. It was supposed to make it so that any area could be done by people of any profession. You are a monk, tired of healing and nothing else, here have some fun in melee. You are an mes and not welcome in these big bad eleetist groups, here go as Ursan. It worked, maybe too good, and because of that well you see what happened. It got destroyed, and lots of players felt that it was the last straw. I feel kind of strongly about it because most of the guild I was in quit the game, and went to wow. I don't like wow, so blah. My point is that Anet would be foolish to nerf SF again. They could do it pretty easily without destroying anything. Just add an environmental effect   That would do away with most of the problems right there. Not all, but most. Now it could be countered again by using cons. I think the real problem people have is not with SF, but with over powered consumables. Cons are the bane of this game. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke 16:50, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * So making things easy with SF is going to help the older players stay in the game longer? This may be a bit harsh and it would prolly not be good for the future budjet of GW2 and arena-net but weren't leaving players that left bacause of the ursan nerf like practically quitting? I mean they're just oldschool players that are doing their last dungeon runs and hanging out with guildmates ans stuff like that. So they're always using the ursan build and then comes in this nerf to better PvE and make it a bit more challenging and these players go and say: "Not worth it my overpowered build got nerfed because of the commond good lol I'm going for WoW" Now that's just quitting and as I just said it may be hars but I think that players like that are not a very productive part of the player base and will propably just go and try different games for a while until something similar happens. Now if some part of the players left GW for LOTRO or WoW or something else because of a SF nerf I think they would just have grown bored and greedy (thinking money is the only thing to care for in a game) in GW. And that's not why games are for. You play for fun and to be with your friends. Not to grind money and to do things without a challenge (like uwsc and perma farming). For the community atleast the faihful to GW part of it a SF nerf would raise spirits and make them feel more important even though they didn't have a sin who could farm nearly everything and easily tank tons of things. Normal FoW, UW etc. runs would be more common after the SF nerf and GW would be played as it is supposed to. As I said the leaving players might be a bad thing for GW2 and the budget but setting those aside I don't think that nerfing SF would do any harm. and btw sry for the awful spelling and very unclear and disorderly way of writhing :P I'm freaking tired >_< Alatar the Red 18:54, 13 August 2009 (UTC)


 * [[Image:Holdings_of_Chokhin.jpg|350px|right]]

O M G S T F U --ilr
 * You might say that a bit more politely eh? and what's up with that screen from holdings of chokhin? I didn't quite get it sry so if you'd like to explain I'd be happy. Alatar the Red 11:03, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Perma SF is a broken concept and changing everything else around it just to counter SF isn't going to fix that fact. There is no need to go through convoluted skill change crap on monsters with the SoD. It should never have been perma-able so that all the pathetic whining related to the fact it now is would stop. The end does not justify the means. Having some autowin buttons will not change the fact the game is effectively dead ever since the devs decided to pretty much abandon it for GW2. Nor will it change the fact that there's nothing new to do. Jennalee 11:44, 16 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It means OMFG Lrn 2 (Reset indent)  ...thats' what it means friends -- ilr 

(Reset indent) Then just do it. --- -- (contribs)  &emsp;(talk)  13:24, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * You're claiming that complete invincibility in more than a few areas makes things "not too easy"? The reason the playerbase is dwindling is simple:  no new content.  People do quit games and move on to other games, and that is the natural order of things.  Find me another game that hasn't had meaningful new content in nearly two years and still retains a playerbase as large as Guild Wars.  Besides, if you're claiming that nerfing ursan made people leave and nerfing shadow form would also make people leave, then the people who would leave because of a shadow form nerf already left because of the ursan nerf.  Quizzical 04:53, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Not at all. Ursans were a very social group; I made a lot of friends and had a great time pugging Ursanway. Shadow Formers can't talk to the rest of the team because they can't risk missing the upkeep, but even if they could they wouldn't want to because they're mostly srs bsns farmers or don't speak English. Perma-SF is something you do alone. Ursan was a group activity. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 06:43, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Back to the original topic, I agree that adding Signet of Disenchantment to high-level mobs would be disastrous for regular groups. Bouncing off that idea though, why not update Shock to include the additional functionality "Knockdown from this skill cannot be prevented if target foe is under the effects of an enchantment", and add the skill to certain high-level ele mobs (some of them already have it)?  Being hit with a number of successive Shocks and being unable to prevent the knockdowns with "I Am Unstoppable!" would be devestating to solo SFers, while being negligable for balanced groups.  It still doesn’t solve the issue of the broken-ness of SF, but it’s a step in the right direction.  Ailina 05:27, November 4, 2009 (UTC)

I have to agree with Tenetke, his comment was made in August 09 and the GW population has drastically dwindled since then. I think nerfing SF at this time will also do more harm than good, it should have been properly nerfed a long time ago. GW is a dead game and I do believe more people will end up leaving if there is a SF nerf. Think about it, what else is there left for people to do? There's no new content and I don't think people who have been spoiled with speed clears are going to want to go back to grinding for 3 to 4 hours in the uw or any other elite area.
 * And what exactly is so fun in going 1-2-3, 1-2-3, 1-2-3, 1-2-3, 1-2-3 in an elite area, that it'll keep you going another year or two? Once you've basically done everything there is to do in GW, you're pretty much.. well, done.  Having or not having one particular 'ubah-skill' isn't going to make that much of a difference - or rather, having the potential for particular win-all cookie-cutter build that causes the 'unot (insert build) goway'-mentality, is likely to do more harm than good.  If someone sticks around simply to use perma-sin (or another repetitive build) to clear one area over and over, the only real reason I can think of is gold-farming.  Personally, once I had done everything as a monk, I started dervish.  Once I'd finished with dervish, I started necromancer.  I'm pretty much done with that one now, and I doubt I'm going to start up a fourth 'clear all' character, but that has nothing to do with a broken skill like shadow form.  Like it was mentioned somewhere above, the reason is simply there hasn't been significant new content once GW:EN came out, and it seems the focus is now on upcoming GW2.  GW has been the best game I ever played, and I'm expecting a great deal from GW2.  But even the best game does eventually come to the end of it's road - that's a simple fact.  With the business model of GW (no monthly cost) the problem isn't so much in people leaving as it is in no new people coming in, and I can't see breaking the standard tried-and-true farm builds being the issue there.  It's simply the age of the game. Kitsunebi 10:25, March 18, 2010 (UTC)

Lose health Anomaly?
From the article: 	"Anomaly! This skill sets your health to the number stated, instead of causing you to lose health."

I am assuming good faith but could you tell me how did anyone test this?I think that health loss is more probable coz it displays the -X health,also if you have like 1 health when sf ends,it wont "set your health to the number stated" ,it does nothing instead and last reason; why would they make a special "set health to the number stated" effect and then add it to only one skill... Btw I am not the IP who removed it from article,I am just wondering.. ***EAGLEMUT***  T  A  L K 11:13, 18 August 2009 (UTC) Contributions


 * No, I've seen it happening. If you have less than the number of health it says, you gain health. for example, if you have 40 health when it ends, and your shadow arts is 15, you gain 10 health so you have 50.--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir 13:19, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Wait, what? That's the first claim on that I've seen. I also cannot reproduce that (tried it just now). --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  13:33, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * No? Strange... it's been a long time, but I think that's what happened.--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir 15:04, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I have dropped my SF many times, but I can't recall one case of GETTING health. Sorry Nazgir, but I think your mixing some things up. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 06:45, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Today I looked a bit in the history and it seems like someone added an anomaly that reads : "If one has, say, less than 53 health at 16 Shadow Arts when Shadow Form ends, they will in fact gain health to match the skill's description, rather than simply losing none, as the description would imply." but it was reworded to the current one,so I am removing it because now the skill surely never causes you to gain health as confirmed by me and other users. (tho at that time this anomaly maybe did exist) [[Image:EM Signature.jpg]] ***EAGLEMUT***   T  A  L K 13:54, 26 August 2009 (UTC) Contributions

I've got an idea. Remove every other class than A/E from pve. It wouldn't change much.

Shadow Form = wtf?
Ok so Shadow Form is an enchantment spell, not a form...Silly but understandable, forms technically came out during NightFall. Could always be changed to one though, we've seen major changes to skills before. Shadow Form makes you pretty much invisible, you cannot be vinced, why? Because you take the form of a shadow. However unlike every other shadow, you can still stab someone. But by the grace of dwayna is only hurts 66% as much of a normal stab to the gut. Anyone else find that silly? A skill called 'Shadow Form' that does not make you truely shadowy nor is a form.

Ok now for my real comment. Anet, please nerf Shadow Form. Make it so that you take of the full aspects of a shadow and can deal no physical damage instead of only 33% less.

Before people start yelling at me for wanting this let me just say that I am not wanting this because of its impact on GW, but rather it's name. It's an enchantment that gives you the form of a shadow that can stab you, come on... Troah 23:59, October 1, 2009 (UTC)


 * Flare should just illuminate a target area, inflicting burn wounds on enemies hit directly by the small ignited bolt (they should stop, drop and roll, too). Additionally, wind should affect it's flight.
 * It may not be the best example, but some things just are not following the laws of physics, esp. in fantasy games. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  11:49, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

Just a random idea
But what if they simply change this skill altogether? FoW, UW, and DoA was done before sins become commonplace, and they won't stopped being farmed without them.. So, my idea. Shadow Form: Elite Enchantment Spell 5E 5/4 Casting Time 20 recharge Shadow Arts Shadowstep to target foe. For 0...9 seconds, you attack 10...33% faster and have a 5..25% chance to block melee attacks. When Shadow Form ends, you take 20...2 damage for each attack blocked in this way. --98.213.157.175 16:20, October 6, 2009 (UTC)


 * Shadowsteps are either imba or mediocre. Using your elite for a shadowstep that is imba means it gets nerfed to mediocreness/Boonness, and using a mediocre elite is stupid. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  16:46, October 6, 2009 (UTC)
 * /AgreewithVipermagi. Perhaps a better use for SF would be

Shadow Form: Elite Skill 5e instant activation 40 second recharge Shadow Arts For 20...30 seconds, you cannot be the target of attacks or spells and you're skills are replaced with that of the Shadow. And the skills would be like for running/snaring, like a couple of 33% ims's and maybe some slow down skills, you know a good running skill. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by PhantasmalTairus (contribs).

That would only be possible in PvE. Fleshcrawler  Soban  00:44, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

Of course, that would be PvE only, PvP would have something akin to what we have now.PhantasmalTairus 02:04, December 11, 2009 (UTC)


 * Now that might actually be quite interesting. Basically a skill similar to ursan/raven/wolf but assassin-specific.  Alternatively, you could redo it in line with dervish forms - not enchantment but form, perhaps tied to critical strikes in a way similar to how dervish forms are tied to mysticism.  Either way, I do agree with the confusion I've seen about this skill earlier - what exactly is the intended use/point of this skill now?  It's been nerfed and re-nerfed to point it just hasn't a reasonable place anywhere anymore.  Without using it as a perma, the downsides - the nerf to damage in particular - make it pretty much useless, especially as an elite.  Using it as a permanent spell on the other hand is so heavily gimped that it's no longer practical - basically the only use the skill now has, has been made so difficult and tedious that it seems pointless.  If it's not intended to be used permanently, then there should be a decisive change to it that makes it so (e.g. change it to form so it can't be copied by echo, and make it behave similar to dervish forms, that is, make it disabled after use), or if it's meant to be possible to be used permanently, then make it more reasonable to be used that way.  Right now the skill is sitting on fence, trying both to maintain it's gimmick qualities, and yet to make them gimped enough that no one should want to use them, which really doesn't make any sense. Kitsunebi 10:47, March 18, 2010 (UTC)

Nerfed, but to what effect?
When anet nerfed ursan they changed the skill so that it would always end after a given duration. I expect that SF will be similarly nerfed. I expect that after the skill's duration it will be disabled for 10 seconds (or something like that). This will cause the user to always lose health at the end of the skill. SF was never meant to be maintained indefinitely and still be a viable skill.

Anet's concept of a balanced skill seems to entail trade-offs between offensive and defensive capabilities. In its current form SF offers superior defensive capabilities with no effective downside offensively. The damage reduction effect can easily be overcome by using Ebon Vanguard Standard of Honor, Asuran Scan, By Urals Hammer and Intensity (etc).

SF is not a marginal skill, its use is ubiquitous. This is in large part due to its utility in farming builds where players generally need to be effective both offensively and defensively. If this skill is nerfed as I imagine it will be, then many types of farming, especially ecto farming, will no longer be as viable as previously. (The change will make the underworld less accessible.) However, such a skill change will not prevent farming altogether.


 * Non-perma SF will just mean 600/smite returns, most likely. Perhaps they'll think of a new full clear team. Who knows.
 * ANet already said they didn't want to make SF non-perma, though. Maybe they changed their minds? Wouldn't be a bad thing. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (contribs) &emsp;-- (UTC)(talk)  10:51, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

NERF!!! throw away all farming builds regarding this skill
So what now? do we give up or do we try to adjust and find a way in using this? --Tomez28 03:38, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

I'll miss being invincible. But it's my fault for procrastinating and not getting my Cartographer titles when I could. Looks like Feather Farming is now my only source of income. That, and getting items for Nick in areas with leveled enemies just got inconvenient for me. Kaze 05:26, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

Arcane Mimicry + Mistform (Ele Hero) + SF = Invincible :) Aura of Holy Might 07:34, February 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * This I dare to strongly doubt. There are tons of interrupting attacks (enough of them with KD, thus unconditionally and unpreventable interrupting on a hit). And you can (and will) still be packed up with conditions, since an attack which does not deal damage, still hits and applies its condition. Actually, Mist Form is not worth it when combined with SF in its current form, the advantages are outraged by far by the disadvantages (secondary Me, wasted Skill slot, having a hero...). Better take Shadow Refuge with you. 198.36.86.81 09:43, February 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Could probably make something PRETTY survivable with it though. SF, Way of Perfection, Shroud of Distress, Critical Agility, Critical Defenses, Shadow Refuge for healing, and then either Golden Phoenix Strike and Critical Strike or WotM and Critical Eye (or maybe a rez). Near-permanent near-unstrippable 25 damage reduction (30 when you decide to heal) with spell immunity, 75% blocking (87.5% if below half health), permanent IAS and increased armor, easy healing on auto-attack, and then pretty damn impressive auto-attack capabilities (toss Strength of Honor and Judge's Insight on there for oodles of fun). Sounds fairly impressive to me, though there will be a lapse in the spell immunity and DR every now and then unless you run QZ or Weapon of Quickening, but still. Maybe you could use Shadow Sanctuary instead of Shadow Refuge and use it for the downtime (make sure the blind is removed so you can renew Defenses) --Gimmethegepgun 10:51, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

should it be noted non primary sins can keep this up now? 68.39.180.226 17:38, February 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * This has been (for me) the most expected update and skill-nerf to happen... But is it really completely nerfed? And antoher thing, are you now the target of attacks? Because it seems to be removed from the description...--Jorre22225 21:21, February 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Umm.... duh? --Gimmethegepgun 21:47, February 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * the way ic it, permaform should be nerfed, not to the point of unusability, just not running a near monopoly on farming/tanking. they made obby flesh not so slow anymore, so it may see a comeback (i play almost nothing but ele so any + for eles i'll vote for), i don't rly know much about 600 builds so i don't know how they figure in. just cus it's the heavy armor class of they game they really need to make warrior better high-end tank, imo it doesn't make sense for an assassin, or a mage/healer to rush in and grab the attention, but wu-du-ai-noAkbaroth 10:34, February 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Obsidian Flesh will drain you of energy now, it is incredibly useless. This constant rewritting of skills in this manner is completely unnecessary if the concern is really farming.  All that needed to be done to cut down on the farming is to place a new creature in the area with soul rending shriek as its skill.  Call it a Nis Fern  (Sin Nerf) and make it a plant creature.  Toss it into the problem areas and bang...you're done.  The Dervish gets Avatar of Balthazar which is far more powerful than this skill now and requires far less to maintain indefinitely and is 100% unstripable.  This skill and the assassin as a whole needs a complete rework as it is without a doubt the worst class in the game.  While I agree that the Sin shouldn't be able to tank, being a master of hit and run isn't a possibility right now and that should be its role in combat and the Sin should be the ultimate runner.  I agree with the earlier suggestion that Shadow Form should end when you attack.  Allow it a long duration, a quick recharge, and eliminate its offensive capabilities.  The only thing this skill change might see is the Sin replace the Monk in the 600/smite team build.  Again, the Nis Fern would do better to nerf this kind of farming than rewritting a "balance" of 92 skills.Genei.09 11:34, February 28, 2010 (UTC)

SF Tanks
This means warriors and dervishes will need to start making good tanks (if they haven't already) to replace the now useless sf tanks. 68.84.38.98 11:18, March 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * What's wrong with SF tanks now? Just because they aren't immortal doesn't mean they can't tank, by that way of thinking nothing can tank. If you actually tried to make a new SF build you'll realise they are still strong tanks - with the right skill set you can tank pretty much any wand/staff mobs and many melee/bow mobs. Just fill your bar with assasin enchants and you will get hit 0's only. Feigned neutrality, shadow sanctuary, sharpen daggers (for offence), shroud of distress, critical defences (good synergy with blocking all spells), critical agility, way of perfection, shadow refuge.... List goes on. I've tanked a few high end-mobs solo succesfully (and killed them). To boot, energy is no longer a problem with SF. An idea that just came to mind aswell, you could try armor of earth/stoneflesh. (Sorry bout my fail posting skills, never done this before)
 * EDIT: Destroyer core sf farming is officially NOT nerfed. Sliver build I ran on my first try -WORKED-. There's plenty of tweaking to be done. 11+4 SA 12 Earth magic 4 Air Magic. Use on NM (same amount of core drops. Tried in HM but it's alot more stressful and I got overwhelmed after about 2min 30secs. I have no doubt this build could be modified to work in HM, but it's pointless).

--114.77.108.48 10:08, March 4, 2010 (UTC)

Refreshing
So, does that mean that Critical Agility and Critical Defenses make you basically invincible, since every time you crit they "refresh"? Or is it conscious refreshing only? --Gimmethegepgun 16:35, March 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * ...New prettymuchinvincitank? o-o
 * Refreshing Crit Agi/Def works the same as recasting them, for what I know (Enchanting and attributes are recalculated, for one). --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  16:44, March 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * So it IS basically invincible. Run the build I put in above with Deadly Paradox and either Critical Eye or a rez and boom you're fucking invincible unless the first like 3 attacks that hit you do a couple hundred damage each. In which case, it's probably HM, and you'd probably have PS on --Gimmethegepgun 16:57, March 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * It does work; I was able to survive the catapult on the Isle of the Nameless by refreshing them enough times. Shadow Form itself gives an additional 5 DR every time you recast it, if you're maintaining it. However, I suspect if you let Shadow Form run out, then recast it, then you'll have to build-up the damage reduction from scratch. I didn't test that. --Macros 21:48, March 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * If the DR counter wouldn't reset when SF ends, you could just cast it once and keep the crazy DR :P --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  22:10, March 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1. Awesome! 2. This is gonna get nerfed. Fleshcrawler   Soban  22:16, March 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * It'll only get nerfed when they find out about it, which means STFU! :P But anyway, it's on here, someone's gonna go to PvX and brag about how they got SF to work again, and it's then gonna get nerfed --Gimmethegepgun 22:45, March 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm saying the DR won't "carry over" to next time you cast SF even if the enchantments that gave you the DR are still active. Probably. Related: Do any enchantments active before you cast SF count without refreshing them? --Macros 01:26, March 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm honestly not finding any evidence to support the "refreshing" theory. The number of refreshes from critical agility, critical defense, or any other sin enchantment I'm using have no impact on the total damage reduction.  It is possible that the fact that so many enchantments are maintained with this build, and the fact that it blockes a very high percentage of attacks leads to a very powerful tanking build whether or not the damage reduction builds up with each refresh. --Smity the Smith  01:34, March 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Correction: When you cast SF, it appears to count the number of sin enchantments on you to calculate the total damage reduction, and reset what it was before. Once maintained, every time you refresh a sin enchantment, the total damage reduction increases by 5, and everytime an enchantment ends it decreases by 5.  So, it is possible to build your damage reduction up a little bit, but everytime you recast shadow form, it is recalculated from the number of enchantments on you. --Smity the Smith  01:49, March 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I hadn't considered that. That makes it slightly less overpowered, but I still think it's not what Anet intended :P --Macros 02:07, March 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * What a retarded way of determining it. I found something that seems a little off with the Master of Spirits: To me, it seems that it tracks the duration of the enchantments, and removes the DR when the enchantment would go away. Occasionally the DR would decrease by 5, which seemed to be when the OLD copy of SF would end, and also when Shroud of Distress would end. Testing on attacking spirits with critical agility would not be the easiest of tasks, since it would add up to over the number too quickly, so it's hard to be certain. Either way, it's moronic, and counter-intuitive --Gimmethegepgun 02:12, March 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Test in hard mode right outside of droks, some of the creatures, including trolls, have unblockable attacks, so it's easy to judge the total damage reduction when they use those attack skills. Testing vs master of spirits would be difficult since he blinds and blocks alot, and also steals health. --Smity the Smith  02:34, March 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I just used the catapult in the Isle of the Nameless. It always does the same amount of damage, so it's easy to tell when it's reduced. Normal weapons have too many variables. Let's hope they nerf it soon so we don't go insane trying to figure it out. --Macros 02:47, March 16, 2010 (UTC)

Macros you removed my note about the removal of shadow form affecting damage gain without testing. What happened to AGF? =\ 75.142.10.108 03:10, March 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also Testing with the trebuchet(which one hit kills players) I only took 244 damage after maintaining it for about a minute and 45 seconds. 75.142.10.108 03:19, March 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Doesn't that thing sometimes do half damage? Also, you could test against an enemy with Wild Blow, like rock-eater scarabs in HM, or jade armors --Gimmethegepgun 04:34, March 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I tested this theory against the Master of Axes. Deadly Paradox - Shadow Form- Wild Blow - Critical Agility. Rest of the bar empty. Had 1 healer hero with me set on avoid combat just healing me. There were times I took only 20 damage from his Excecutioner's Strike and 0 from his regular attacks, other times I took 60. Strange? yes. Viable? No imo it's to unreliable. Cool find though Lยкץ๒๏ץ talk  08:09, March 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sometimes it crit (60), sometimes it got a decent roll (20), sometimes it got a crappy roll (0) --Gimmethegepgun 12:11, March 16, 2010 (UTC)