User talk:NieA7/Build:N/any Dedicated Minion Master/Archive1

Rate-a-Build
Favored: Unfavored:
 * (see coments below)--&mdash; xis10al  [[Image:Xis10al_sig_icon.jpg]] 12:21, 23 June 2006 (CDT)
 * &mdash; ::A mont :: 12:31, 23 June 2006 (CDT)
 * revote after cleanup --Nemren 16:04, 21 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Merge with MM guide - don't need everyone and his mothers MM build scattered about &mdash; Skuld  08:02, 26 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Agree with Skuld. No primer for minions, and where's the Fiends? &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 16:33, 21 July 2006 (CDT)
 * What they said. &mdash; Galil  11:29, 9 August 2006 (CDT)

Reasoning
First of all I apologise for adding yet another minion master build, but looking at the others I can't help but feel that they have the wrong emphasis for PvE play. In a reasonably sized team there's no need for a MM to carry any direct damage skills, much better that they focus on creating minions and keeping themselves alive.

I realise that 12 + 1 soul reaping will probably be regarded as excessive, but at least that way you're never in the position where you don't have enough energy to create at least a bone horror - if needs be a quick Taste of Death will give you almost enough right off the bat. Besides, Dark Bond has a duration longer than its recharge even at Blood Magic 0, so there's really no need to spend the points elsewhere.

Finally, for all the people who are thinking "I wouldn't touch a MM build without Bone Fiends with a 10-foot barge pole", it's my honest belief that Vampiric and Bone Horrors are much more useful for a team than Bone Fiends. Sure, they do less damage over time, but you've got 7 other dedicated killing machines with you - the amount of damage your minions do (Flesh Golem aside) is always going to be less than the damage another player can do. Much better to create a wall of flesh to keep your rangers and spellcasters safe and to keep the enemy distracted while warriors and assassins pound on them. -- NieA7 (23 June 2006)


 * I have playtested this build, and much like you mention above, my only real problem, though minor, with it is no Fiends. With no many meatshields running around, it's hard for the Flesh Golem to make his way into battle to deal his damage, or get close enough for an effective Death Nova.  But I'm still voting favorable, as the horde mentality does work.--&mdash;  xis10al  [[Image:Xis10al_sig_icon.jpg]] 12:25, 23 June 2006 (CDT)


 * He already mentioned that it doesn't have any fiends. :D While I haven't personally played this build, one of my guild mates plays it regularly, so I am in favor of this build. &mdash; ::A mont :: 12:31, 23 June 2006 (CDT)


 * this is a good build, similar to the one i use. two problems
 * nothing to start the army with, i know you already talked about that, but i find Rotting Flesh very effective in PvE, where most critters are some other species then the players. plus it's not dependant on minions dying.
 * this is not different enough to justify a stand alone article, consider merging at the bottom of General minion mastery guide
 * --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 14:07, 23 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I agree that Rotting Flesh is useful in PvE, the problem is that there's not one skill on the bar that I would lose to take it. The animates and blood of the master are prerequisites for a MM build, dark bond and taste of death can keep you alive long after the rest of your party have snuffed it and death nova can cause ungodly amounts of damage if used correctly. I'd happily lose the Res Signet (can't res me after all), but I've found that other people start looking at me real funny if I'm the last one left and I can't do anything other than make minions out of them...


 * If I were to take this build (and I've played similar), I'd probably remove Taste of Death or Death Nova to make room for something like Rotting Flesh. But that's just me - I don't really like using either skill in an MM build. As for the bone horrors vs. fiends - I prefer fiends, but the two times I messed up and brought horrors instead of fiends, they did the job. If I were to keep Death Nova in my build, I'd go with horrors over fiends any day.--KaliMagdalene 14:40, 3 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I guess I'm the only one who doesn't find a -4 degain on it's own all that sexy, but seeing as you good folks are all calling for it I'll add a variant for a more overtly aggressive MM. Well of Suffering stacks nicely for a -10 degain (even though it exploits a corpse a well that lasts 31 seconds is worth it IMO, and in a well organised party it's unlikely that anybody else will be using corpse exploitation spells), and I've found that Rising Bile is another good combo with Rotting Flesh (cast both and leg it - target gets a -4 for 26 seconds, then 4 seconds later gets hit with a 120 damage spike).


 * Coincidentally a couple of days ago I was kicked from no less than 4 Tombs B/P parties for claiming to be a MM while being a secondary Mesmer, and even in the party I finally did join the monk left after I said I used pure death/SR. I feel so shunned ;.; --NieA7 (4th July 2006)


 * I don't agree about merging the build in with the MM guide, in fact I don't think there should be any builds in that article at all - that's a general guide, this is the section for specific builds, I don't think the two should be mixed (just link to MM builds that get voted as favoured). The article as it stands is fairly exhaustive, the builds seem almost tacked on as an afterthought. I think it would be better if they were removed from the article and added to this section as builds to test (and to be honest I think the Basic Army Master and Golem Master builds would be voted unfavoured pretty quickly too). --NieA7 (26th June 2006)


 * "I've found that other people start looking at me real funny if I'm the last one left and I can't do anything other than make minions out of them..." ROFL that is a real classic. --Xeeron 11:52, 26 June 2006 (CDT)

Nemren - What exactly would you be looking for to make this build special? It's a minion master, creating and healing minions is kinda what they're about. People didn't vote unfavoured on the heavy nuker because all it does is blow stuff up.


 * wow, this build has gotten bloated when i wasn't looking. 4 variants, 3 pages of advice, 2 different elites. did someone move the text from the Gmmg] in here? where's my battleaxe of article pruning? --[[User:Honorable Sarah|Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 09:45, 21 July 2006 (CDT)


 * It'd be me that did the bloating, I thought including specific varients for those with just one campaign wouldn't be a bad idea (and everybody else wanted something with Rotting Flesh in it). The campaign specific ones can go if you think it's become too long, they're nothing that somebody with just one campaign couldn't work out for themselves (given enough time and cups of hot tea). --NieA7 09:55, 21 July 2006 (CDT)

Merging with the Minion Master Guide
Merging this build with the Minion Master guide is a bad idea, as is including any specific build in a non-build article. The three builds that were in the guide were all out of date (two to the extent of not being updated since Factions came out) or useless - they would've been, and indeed were, deleted in minutes if they were created as individual builds. It's much easier for all concerned if there's a few builds in the builds category, where they can be voted on, monitored and updated like any other build. If you don't like this build for itself then fair enough, but I don't think it's enough to say it should just be merged with the guide when it's so clear that builds in guides are a recipe for trouble. --NieA7 09:51, 21 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Build:E/any Renewal Nuker doesn't have a General making stuff explode guide. all of the information on this page is already covered by the Gmmg. this article could fall off the face of the wiki and we would suffer no great loss.
 * that is not to say it is a bad build. in fact, i think it shouldn't be unfavored either. good redundant information is still redundant information, however. at the very least, 90% of this article should be replaced with see Gmmg. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 09:53, 21 July 2006 (CDT)


 * True, but somebody should write that guide for the title alone. Anyway, builds in guide = bad. If the build's not bad then it's not bad, if anything it's the guide that should be pruned if it's treading on the builds toes. Least, that's what I think - surely better to have a guide about minion mastery concentrate on it's specific facets while a build pulls it all together, rather than a guide which tries to do everything? --NieA7 09:59, 21 July 2006 (CDT)


 * i think the current incantation is that guides should cover theory with a little practice (improving your cooking for beginers), and builds should be a specific exact set of skills and attributes to do a specific thing (recipe for sugar cookies with heart sprinkles). --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 10:12, 21 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Good analogy. Hmm, I wonder how many times we have to mention the General making stuff explode guide before it appears at the top of the "wanted pages" list... &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 10:45, 21 July 2006 (CDT)
 * i like heart sprinkles --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 10:55, 21 July 2006 (CDT)
 * N/any Dedicated Minion Master (with heart sprinkles)? --NieA7 15:06, 21 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I have a few reasons, why i voted unfavoured. One is, that this article grows with each version, but the amount of information stayed constant. The first 3 versions, are somehow the essence. The following variants are in my opinion unnecessary. 2 changed skills is a variant, but is it worth a complete skill bar? The advantage of headwords is the easy readability. The paragraphs are some kind of prose, that a build should avoid. It turns major parts of this "build" into a guide. The concept of a short self-explanatory build is gone. The usage section is basically a mini minion master guide. All points can be put together into 3-4 points without any major loss. Anyone using this build will read the skill discriptions. E.g. theres no need to tell him to use Taste of Death in case of an emergency. This build has, as far as i can see no special hidden flaws or any outstanding effects. The skills are logically put together, so why so much text? --Nemren 14:39, 21 July 2006 (CDT)


 * OK, campaign only versions removed, anything approaching prose dumbed down to a list. Skill bar for the variant retained, it's easier than typing out what to drop and what to take in its place, especially coupled with the usage and equipment notes. Outstanding effect is that it works - a highly underrated feature of some builds :p Anybody feels we've lost too much feel free to revert. --NieA7 15:06, 21 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Making stuff explode with heart sprinkles ;) --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 15:20, 21 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Making stuff explode into heart sprinkles ^.^v --NieA7 15:32, 21 July 2006 (CDT)

Approved to candidate for merger in the space of a few minutes, what fun. As for no primer and no fiends, read the first paragraph in the "reasoning" section for my take on that, if you haven't already. To surmise: fiends are less useful, your primers are the other 7 people you're with, specific builds in guides have been shown to be a bad idea. --NieA7 16:55, 21 July 2006 (CDT)

As nobody seems to have anything to say about the merger I will remove the cadidate thing in a couple of days, assuming there are no objections in the mean time. --NieA7 09:19, 8 August 2006 (CDT)

I don't support a merge. I do support a General heart sprinkles guide, with subsections for exploding with, exploding into, and throwing at pets. Armond 11:21, 9 August 2006 (CDT)


 * The need for a Heart Sprinkles (and possibly Making Stuff Explode) guide is manifest, but laying those issues aside - last chance for supporters of a merge to speak up... --NieA7 04:38, 12 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Merge tag removed. --NieA7 06:53, 13 August 2006 (CDT)