Talk:Metagame

Metagame =~ Environment
To be entirely fair, the term 'metagame' is still relatively new (as words go, not showing up in most dictionaries), and we could have a rousing argument about whether or not language should be prescriptive or descriptive, but it's certainly the case that (1) People use metagame to refer to both the environment as well as the outer game being played (sometimes out of some confusion, but some people know exactly what they are saying) and (2) Guildwik has generally chosen to be descriptive rather than prescriptive, when possible. At any rate, I don't want to even tempt an edit war, but I'll at least say on this talk page that at least one commonly used definition of metagame is the environment, even though most game theorists generally don't use the term that way (because they need to be more technical when using terms like environment). One possible edit could be simply to say that some people use the term environment to describe the current distribution of builds, while others use the term metagame to mean the same thing.

As a minor point of reference, Magic: The Gathering theorists often use both the term environment and metagame to refer to the environment. Given the influence that Magic had on GuildWars and the intentional similarities, I'd at least suggest we not call their language outright wrong.

OK, I'll stop rambling.

(All excellent edits, fwiw. I'm glad someone else attacked the article.) --JoDiamonds 11:58, 24 March 2006 (CST)
 * Well, I just felt awkward with metagame being defined as the environment - I don't mind it's use, but I think it's proper to note that "IWAY is the FOTM" is not "the metagame". But I also hate hearing words like indexes, matrixes, and stadiums (indices, matrices and stadia) so I'm one of those people.  I actually wanted to make it more precise, as it is pretty much a game theory term, and was used for example to show that by using contingent strategies one can change the dominant strategies of a game.  The classical Hawk/Dove (and extended forms with Bully/Retaliator/Bourgeois...) games are great for showing how a change in populations can change the effectivness of a strategy - the population will seek an evolutionarily stable strategy.  But I'll happily concede that the term is generally used to mean the current builds, rather than the interplay which causes the builds to be current.  And I know it still needs work, and feel free to change it bak - I don't need it to be correct, I just like things that way :P   --Epinephrine 13:19, 24 March 2006 (CST)


 * Using evolutionary game theory is the wrong approach here, since we cant really assume that more successful GW player have more children that use their parents GW builds, who in turn will have more children (using their strategy) if they are successful, and so on. If you want to talk in terms of gametheory, using repeated games and/or mixed equilibria seems to be the proper way to describe the problem. But all that apart, I think we should not use any game theory terms at all and just state that most players use the term "metagame" to describe which builds are popular at the moment and which are counters to these.


 * I disagree, I think sucessful builds behave very much like successful parents in the environment, as a build that is succeeding will continue to be played by that player often and will inspire others to follow suit (see IWAY for example, which was successful, thus bred more of the same - and then by accounting for IWAYs influence we saw the rise of the successful anti-melee builds), abandoning less successful strategies. I think it's a pretty good analogy, and the concept of evolutionarily stable strategies and the environment works well - in a heavy physical damage environment a skill like physical resistance has a good payoff, but the more it is used the better the payoff for adopting elemental damage in your build - so the concept of ESS works well to describe the interplays.  Still, if you want to skirt the game theory I'm fine with that, I just don't like imprecision and misuse of terms.  Anyway, I didn't like the way the article portrayed it, but you are welcome to edit away until it is in a shape we can all agree on.  I'll agree that my use of the term ESS may be a bit of a stretch - I don't know that there is one strategy stable against invasion for example, but it does behave in a similar manner.  To be fair, I've only had one grad level course in game theory, so my knowledge of the area is far from perfect, but there are some strong parallels between evolutionary games and Guild Wars. --Epinephrine 22:00, 24 March 2006 (CST)

PS: Random Arena metagame? Yes, that is one reason why using game theory terms here is a bad idea lol. --Xeeron 19:03, 24 March 2006 (CST)