Talk:Guide to defeating doppelganger

Archived Talk Page
Toraen (Talk  / Contrib)  01:01, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

AI Changes
I just did the quest with a Ritualist spirit wrangler bar containing Union and shelter on the far right side. The first spirit the doppelganger brought up was the shelter spirit. So it appears that usage is no longer strictly left to right but based on some priority scheme. Can someone double check this for me. 69.76.32.187 03:18, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * While I cannot confirm using the same skills atm, I agree that the Doppleganger doesn't seem to be as dumb as it used to be. For example if I stick Signet of Devotion to the far right of my bar, the Doppleganger will still spam it for healing. Or if I take Backfire it will cast that early on, even if that's far right, etc etc. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:43, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I can contest to him being just as dumb when it comes to chains. As an assassin i brought Jagged Strike, Iron Palm, Falling Spider, Twisting Fangs (in reverse order), and he just spammed Iron Palm on me.


 * Recently on my necro on HM: lots of useless spells on the left, backfire and SS on the right. It used them all from left to right, with backfire as it's last spell, and somehow even forgot to cast SS XD So it seems to be rather random.--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir  17:51, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I beat up doppelchanger with skills OgNCoMrDuQYoL2FFRihRMmA I just cast fire attunement before entering area, then meteor straight at it then aoe spells and it died very quick.

Kill the Doppelganger with my Dervish yesterday, took about 30 seconds just using basically my regular skill setup (only added Dust Cloak)...

I noticed that it did cast Avatar of Lyssa right away, despite that being at the far right of my skill bar; it however did not use Eternal Aura (which is nice). Beyond that, I never once saw it activate any of the attack skills I had, it just spent the entire time recasting enchants and using normal attacks. Very easy fight and Dust Cloak ended up being pointless as I won just before it ran out. So I'd say a simple tactic for Dervish is to just put a few enchantments that don't do a whole lot (I had Vital Boon, Eternal Aura, and Heart of Fury - the burning is downright easy to outheal if you have Mystic Regeneration, though I had that at the right end of my bar, just because that's how I always set it up) and go to town. Minxy 16:35, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Well Eternal Aura is PvE-only, so it can't use it. Rather odd that it wouldn't activate attack skills though unless they had huge drawbacks. What attack skills were you using? Toraen 18:32, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The Doppelganger can use some PvE-only skills, such as Winds. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:02, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * According to the article, it only gets rituals from the PvE-only skills (and then only in Normal mode). This makes normal mode even easier due to the long cast time where you can just wail on the doppelganger since winds is quite useless. Toraen 15:50, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I suspect that the doppelganger has a 12 in all normal attributes but a 0 in the PvE-only skill attributes. The AI usually leads it to avoid using skills when it has a 0 in the skill.  That should be changed to a 12, just so people who go ursan get slaughtered by the doppelganger.  Quizzical 17:33, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * That makes a lot more sense than Anet arbitrarily not allowing the doppelganger to copy those skills, and then increasing the restrictions for Hard Mode. It's just an oversight that needs fixing. As a side note, should the mention of Sneak Attack stay in the Assassin section? It would really work for any melee character since it's permanent blind that the doppelganger can't (doesn't?) use. Toraen 18:04, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * No, it shouldn't. I've reverted it.  It seems that everyone and his neighbor's dog wants to add "PvE-only cheats work here, too" to this page.  Quizzical 21:30, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

easy warrior win
its easy to win as a warrior. take frensy, save yourselves, wild blow, final thrust, dragon slash, for great justice, balanced stance and desparation blow. dont use the first four skills at all, the doppleganger will use these and use up adrenaline or decreace his armour. wait untill you have 10 adrenal and use for great justice and then spam dragon slash


 * Save yourself has absolutely no effect. Not on you or not against him. Not even on him. taking an optional slot is just as good.--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir 11:25, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The warrior is probably the easiest for me to beat. I just take my pet, charm animal, comfort animal, frenzy, call of protection etc elite is Enraged Lunge. You will beat him in a few seconds. At least that is what I used last time, I am almost certain it will still work well. You just don't use frenzy, use your pet skills then unload with a double damage enraged every 5 seconds. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]  Tenetke Mekko    My Talk 15:28, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Paragon
Quizzical, I followed the tips in the article, stating that taking paragon spear skills was beficial, because he couldn't use them because he uses an axe. I have no screens, and I do not plan on going there again, as this little joke nearly cost me my survivor. I took those spear attacks to make it an easy win, but I had to figth for my life, and it was far from easy. The only way a para can win in NM is with hard work or pve, and in HM only with pve skills. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 16:25, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The doppelganger only switches to an axe when you're in melee range. Getting to melee range is a critical part of the tip.
 * I was strongly skeptical of your claims because my notes say it works just fine in hard mode, so I tried it. In hard mode, I won, though it was close.  I tried it in easy mode and won with 466 HP leftover.  I picked skills kind of haphazardly, so one could probably come up with a better build than this, but what I used was:
 * 14 spear mastery, 11 leadership, 9 motivation (for the shield)
 * furious suntouched spear of defense, 15^50 inscription, all mods max
 * daedal shield with +30 HP, 20% chance of -5 physical damage received
 * Don't use the two skills on the far right. Focused anger is not a spear attack, but won't do the doppelganger any good, as it can't use the spear attacks.  Most likely switching to a vampiric spear would have helped in hard mode.  Quizzical 17:45, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok a misunderstanding on my side. The note doesn't say "get in to melee range". I suggest you add that, or atleast make it more clear, so every1 understands. I clearly didn't. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 17:50, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * From the note as it is and has been: "Use a lot of Spear Attacks, and stay in melee range. The Doppelganger will use its axe, and will not be able to use these attack skills."  Quizzical 18:22, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Does that work with bow attacks, too? o.O And theoretically, shouldn't every class be able to easily beat this by staying in / out of melee range? Entropy [[Image:Entropy Sig 2.jpg]] (C) 18:45, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Does that work with bow attacks, too? o.O And theoretically, shouldn't every class be able to easily beat this by staying in / out of melee range? Entropy [[Image:Entropy Sig 2.jpg]] (C) 18:45, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * In, yes. Out, no. If you're outside Melee range, you ain't using Melee, and neither will he :) --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  18:46, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, but you could build up adrenaline or something (easymode). For example, to use Riposte. Entropy [[Image:Entropy Sig 2.jpg]] (C) 18:49, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * But then so would the Dopple, and for what I know he uses Riposte with an Axe. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  18:52, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The doppelganger switches between a ranged weapon and a melee weapon depending on how close you are. Melee attacks don't do you any good if you're not in melee range, so that won't help melee classes.  There are no staff attack skills, so that won't help casters.  A ranger might be able to do about the same thing with a bow, but using pet attacks instead is much easier and more effective.  If you're going to use a secondary profession to beat doppelganger, skills such as empathy or insidious parasite are by far a superior approach.  The reason to use this paragon strategy is if you're a paragon and don't want to have to go buy skills for a secondary profession.  Quizzical 19:11, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * You're not thinking outside the box. Use a spear/wand/whatever to charge adrenaline, switch to sword, use riposte, get in melee range. Doppel attacks and takes 100 damage. Switch back to spear, charge again, rinse and repeat. Also use Deadly Riposte to speed things up. Entropy [[Image:Entropy Sig 2.jpg]] (C) 19:29, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * You'll need an IMS to get him out of his Melee set, making it more trouble than it's worth (spam Deadly Riposte and Heal Sig for an easier win) --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  19:34, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * You don't need him to get out of his melee set for that, actually. Also, healsig would be a terrible idea. Entropy [[Image:Entropy Sig 2.jpg]] (C) 19:58, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Necromancer
This was the skillset I used today and it was only mere seconds before the Doppleganger went down. I used only the last three skills the whole time and attacked using a Staff.


 * Primary / Secondary: Necromancer / None
 * Blood Magic: 12,
 * Curses: 11,
 * Using: Deldrimor Curses Staff


 * Darrell Kitchen (C) 01:49, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I've been searching for sacrifice skills that the Doppelganer would use willingly, I guess I should have looked in Blood. That is helpful to know. You could also throw in Ulcerous Lungs so he suffers an additional -4 degen... :) Entropy [[Image:Entropy Sig 2.jpg]] (C) 08:15, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Enfeeble and insidious parasite alone are enough to ensure that the doppelganger will heal you more than it damages you when it attacks, even in hard mode. You could readily leave the rest of the slots empty and be fine; adding other skills to speed things up is only a matter of not messing up the build.  Quizzical 08:52, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * It occurs to me that Reckless Haste might be a bad idea, since Insidious doesn't do anything if they're not hitting. Entropy [[Image:Entropy Sig 2.jpg]] (C) 08:59, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I think you ppl r overthinking this... ALL you need to do is spam insidious parasite and you should win - Rabus 18:33, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

15 seconds. I did it again, using the same configuration as I posted before.
 * Darrell Kitchen (C) 20:09, 9 June 2009 (UTC)


 * No one is doubting that it works. Rather, the objection is that there's way too much unnecessary detail there.  Drop everything but enfeeble and spiteful spirit insidious parasite, and the build still works just fine.  In easy mode, you could probably drop enfeeble, too.  Quizzical 20:42, 9 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I did this with just Insidious Parasite in both NM and HM. NM in 18 seconds, HM in 16 seconds.  Thanks, Quizzical! Darrell Kitchen (C) 21:10, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Monk
Easily dispatched in HM with standard 600 strategy: Protective spirit, spirit bond, retribution, balthazar's, essence bond, frenzy (OwED0jzPPax6BAAAgPkH6DtC). use spirit bond first, get bonds up as energy permits, keep spirit bond up, Get into meelee range so he attacks with axe. I did it first time in HM without having tested it with about 20 secs left on the clock for bonus. 85.225.246.242 13:07, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

More strategies
Kill doppel in 1-3 non elite skills (theoretical, havent tested yet)
 * Necromancer Insidious Parasite
 * Mesmer Illusion of Pain, Shatter Hex (plenty other ways for mesemer thats just my take on it, let him heal u)
 * Elementalist Conjure Flame, Mark of Rodgort (requires fire dmg wand/ staff)
 * Warrior Frenzy, Final Thrust, Shield Bash
 * Ranger Charm Animal, Crossfire, Lightning Reflexes
 * Paragon "Can't Touch This!", Signet of Aggression, Blazing Spear (gain adrenaline first for the edge then run up to him so he never get to use blazing spear May not work)
 * Monk Spear of Light, Bane Signet, Holy Strike (dont attack unless sure both his bane and spear are on recharge, run up to him and kd then use holy strike)
 * Ritualist Vengeful Weapon, Spirit Rift (DONT LET RIFT HIT YOU)
 * Rabus 15:54, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * If you're trying the mission in hard mode, then most of those won't work because the doppelganger's vanilla damage is so much higher than yours. Quizzical 17:21, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I have some stuff documented here (which, admittedly, I haven't updated in a long time - you have some better strategies now for Monk, for example) which was tested specifically in hardmode...I do assume that characters would use some skills from secondary or some easy-to-get pve skills, sometimes, and yeah, I have perma shadowform listed there for Assassin (I have to test that though: I think it's possible to do it without maintaining Shadow Form, which would make it valid). Entropy [[Image:Entropy Sig 2.jpg]] (C) 19:44, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * If you're going to use a secondary profession, then there's no need to get so fancy. Switch your secondary to mesmer and that will give you empathy without having to buy it separately.  Use empathy and an otherwise empty skillbar, dodge back and forth in combat while not casting empathy, and you win.
 * If the dodge back and forth part is too hard and you're willing to buy skills, then take a necromancer secondary, pick up insidious parasite and enfeeble (both available in Prophecies before reaching the Crystal Desert), take those two skills and an otherwise empty skillbar, and you win.
 * The only interesting question is how to win without using a secondary profession, and without using PvE-only skills. User:Quizzical/Prophecies_Hard  I guess I could spell out specific builds for the classes where it's easy, but I'd hope that wouldn't be necessary.  The other monk alternative that wasn't available when I did legendary guardian is Ray of Judgement and Restful Breeze, with an otherwise empty skillbar.  Quizzical 20:21, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * That's true, but that's boring and/or costs money. :p Entropy [[Image:Entropy Sig 2.jpg]] (C) 21:06, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * " Quizzical: The only interesting question is how to win without usind a secondary profession... " Not sure anyone even notice that I posted in the Necromancer topic that I have no secondary profession on my Necromancer. Darrell Kitchen (C) 22:34, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * What i was trying to do is give strategies that should beat him without needing an elite or relying on secondary, so they could b used in NM. If u want to use elites, secondaries or PvE skills its rly easy even in HM as a E/Me i used blinding flash with empathy to own him in HM, any1 with a lvl 20 pet can own him too - Rabus 21:02, 11 June 2009 (UTC)


 * If you're in easy mode, you can empty your skillbar, trade hits (i.e., not bother to dodge), and win. For martial weapon users, it shouldn't be close, either.  I tried it as a dervish and won with about half my health left, and considerably more than that as an assassin.  As a caster, it's closer, but I tried with an empty skillbar as a monk and still won.  I guess that might fail for people who don't have viable PvE gear (and a Prophecies character might not, having not yet reached Droknar's Forge), but that only takes a few alternate strategies to win, most of which are quite easy, and already on the page, for that matter.
 * Yes, Darrell, I saw that you weren't assuming a secondary profession for the necromancer build. Necromancer is one of the easy classes, though.  When I replied above, I assumed that the page had already said to use insidious parasite, and it kind of does, but it should probably spell it out more clearly.  The interesting classes are elementalist, assassin, and monk, as finding single-class strategies that work in hard mode for those wasn't easy.  For that matter, the assassin strategies listed only sometimes work in hard mode.
 * As for the other classes, mesmer, necromancer, ritualist, and ranger are completely trivial. In fact, I'm inclined to trim down those sections considerably so that the easy strategies aren't so buried and hard to find.  Dervish is very easy if you have an ebon scythe, but it would be good to have a reliable strategy that doesn't assume that.  The warrior and paragon strategies that work aren't hard to find, but aren't completely trivial to use.  Quizzical 00:30, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Have you tried using the semi-strategy I have on my page - taking a bunch of enchantments, Signet of Pious Restraint, and Vow of Strength (optimally)? I found it to be pretty reliable. Entropy [[Image:Entropy Sig 2.jpg]] (C) 00:36, 13 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I just tried it and destroyed doppelganger with about 60% health left over, though mostly I used different enchantments from the ones you list. Very nice; that should go in the article.  Trading hits with enchantments that deal damage probably isn't the best idea in hard mode, though.  Quizzical 01:14, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I just picked enchants at random, there are probably better ones. The thing with Vow of Strength that makes it perfect is that it stops working if the foe (you) has a condition (crippled). So it only works in your favor, even if the Doppelganger doesn't drop it. :) Entropy [[Image:Entropy Sig 2.jpg]] (C) 03:26, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

"I am the strongest!" + Ursan Blessing + pet
(using a W/R) Took about 3 tries, but on the third try managed to kill Doppelganger in HM by spamming 1, 2, then 3 when it gets up (in Ursan form). I don't think "I am the strongest!" actually does anything in Ursan form. Someone confirm? (Pet hits around 9 or so, but does help). 76.10.183.135 00:27, 4 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Wait now, you use cheats and it still takes three tries, and now you're advising others to do the same? Um, no.  Quizzical 00:41, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I wasn't telling anyone to use this strategy, I suggest you reread what I wrote before you let your ego talk. I was just wondering if "I am the strongest!" does anything in Ursan Form. Plus, this strategy is just something I threw together in about say, 2 seconds of thinking. It's not meant to be effective or even good. 69.165.163.248 01:45, 5 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Using ursan blessing removes all "effects". I'm not sure exactly what that includes, as it doesn't include everything that an average English-speaking person would consider an "effect"--such as consumables.  If that includes shouts, then no, it doesn't do anything.  You can try it yourself by watching to see if using ursan blessing removes the status box for the shout.  Quizzical 01:56, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The ursan skills aren't attacks if memory serves, so it wouldn't do much of anything even if the shout remained. Also, PvE-only skills are pretty much covered in: The doppelganger will not use most PvE-only skills at all, as mob AI was written assuming that mobs would not have access to PvE-only skills.  There's no reason to just list all the PvE skills. Toraen   talk  19:12, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

WTF?
I was doing the Z-Mission today, and on a whim decided to try using the Iron Mist trick. BUT when the doppelganger started meleeing me with his axe, he was hitting through iron mist. No other skills on my bar except frenzied defense. WTF? He has a lightning axe just for these sorta situations? EDIT: Just tested with mantra of lightning, yes, his axe has a lighning mod on it. Iron mist no worky in melee, and conjure lightning would be a bad idea Slypher the executive director 17:25, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Strange, he never even cast Iron Mist on me. I was using Mark of Rodgort and Flare, though. Is the Doppelganger getting smarter? It's only a matter of time before he murders us in our sleep and takes our place, with no one ever realizing what happened. --Macros 14:23, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

EotN Skill Set in HM, 20 second or less kill
While doing the Z-Mission I just thought to try 3 skills for the heck of it. YMLaD, Assassin Support, then Pain Inverter. Nothing else on skill bar. Usually kills it in HM in under 20 seconds. RIGHT after cut scene do YMLaD, Assassin Support, Pain Inverter and maybe hit YMLaD again when it comes back. Not even a challange. The Doppel does not seem to have or use these skills. I do have the Norn, Asuran, and Vanguard titles above level 4 on all my characters also. Oh and you need EotN expansion obviously. --Diggler 16:29, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, yes, PvE-only cheats work here, too, just like everywhere else in the game. The page already says that.  Quizzical 16:35, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Warrior strategy in HM
I tried it in HM with the two Ripostes and Gladiator's defense, and another blocker I can't remember which. I could not beat it until I threw in Empathy with 9 Domination. Eventually he just outdamaged these 3 skills (others don't do any damage, only block), as you can't block everything. Most blocking stances also require adrenaline and don't last as long as they used to, so you need multiples to cover the gap in Glad's Def, and you can't gain any adren by attacking, you will have to wait out his Glad's Def and Ripostes. You can't use a spear to gain adren and avoid his blocking, because you must have a sword for Ripostes to work. I barely got enough to use Riposte with only 4 adren req. "Make sure to have enough blocking stances to always have one active" needs a bit more explanation, as I couldn't get it to work. Post something you know works in HM, please. RoseOfKali 19:12, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * There are a lot of blocking stances available. Don't just pick the few that are mentioned.  Grab some others, too.  Here's the build I just used:
 * 13 tactics, 2 swordsmanship, 1 strength (yeah, I unallocated a majority of my attribute points, just to prove a point)
 * sundering long sword of defense (15^50, perfect mods, req 9 swordsmanship)
 * wooden buckler (+16 armor, +30 health, 20% chance of -5 physical damage, req 9 tactics)
 * mostly knight's insignias on armor, though dreadnought on the helmet
 * +1 swordsmanship intrinsic to the helmet
 * minor runes of strength, swordsmanship, and tactics; superior runes of vigor and absorption
 * The gear I used isn't terribly important. I just grabbed what I had and list it for the sake of completeness.
 * Use deflect arrows at the start until the doppelganger switches to an axe, and for great justice at the start for a good chance at getting to use riposte once. Once the doppelganger switches to an axe, use deadly riposte, wait for it to hit, then gladiator's defense, and wait for it to wear off.  Use riposte if it lights up, and re-use deadly riposte once the cooldown is done.  Use shield stance and defensive stance as necessary when other blocking stances aren't available.  You may have to take a few hits with no blocking stance up.  Don't use frenzied defense.
 * I just did it in hard mode and finished with 539 HP left over. If you block several attacks in a row and aren't attacking, the game regards you as out of combat and gives you natural regeneration.
 * When I did this yesterday, I used a somewhat different build, and most notably forgot to switch to my tactics shield, so I didn't get the +16 armor because I had too low of strength. There's enough leeway that it didn't matter.  Quizzical 20:51, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 02:32, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 02:32, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

The empty skillbar approach
This is getting into 1RV territory, so I'll bring it here. Someone added a note that if you're a warrior and fight the doppelganger with perfect gear in easy mode and take an empty skillbar, you can outdamage it and you win. While true, the same strategy works for every class. At the very least, it shouldn't be specific to the warrior section.

Furthermore, it's really not a very good strategy to use at all for people the first time around. Saying, in order to win, you have to buy a crafted hammer for 2k plus materials, and go around getting a bunch of collector items to turn in for collector armor, is just a terrible thing to advise. If specific to easy mode, surely it would be better to say, just bring frenzy and don't use it. A Prophecies character gets that as a reward for his third quest in pre-searing--and the first quest to involve fighting anything.

I'll remove the note again unless someone can come up with a good reason to keep a rather useless note not specific to any class in the warrior section. Quizzical 22:54, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I removed it. Part of the reason was also that it seemed to have been made by RTEditor, which made "invisible" changes to the entire article (check revision history and compare versions).  If this is to be put back, it should be added into the general section as tips:  Max weapons can be crafted in Amnoon Oasis and max armor obtained from collectors around the desert.  This makes the fight much easier and can give you an advantage over the doppleganger without using any or just a few skills.
 * On the other hand, are you sure that this works for any class? 80 basic armor is the highest for warriors over other classes, and Dopple cannot use a hammer to gain it's huge base damage (it can however use hammer skills, so only the no-skill approach gives you damage advantage), it uses an axe for melee.  As I said before, big part of my motivation to revert is all the "invisible" edits that showed up for whatever reason, but this may as well only apply to warriors, further testing should be done to confirm for sure.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 23:04, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I tried trading hits with an empty skillbar and won as a couple of caster classes. It really does take perfect gear or something very close to it to make that work, I think, and not merely something kind of nice.  I'd assume that martial weapon users have more leeway, due both to their higher default armor and their higher weapon damage.  Quizzical 00:45, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with leaving out the empty skillbar approach from the article:
 * It's a specific case of the general strategy of forcing the doppel to use skills that benefit the player more.
 * It's dependent on equipment, not necessarily available to all players. (A perfect hammer is available as a /bonus item, but not everyone has access. As Quizzical notes, max armor is even harder to come by.)
 * The empty-bar doesn't fill a hole (ironically enough) in the article; there are plenty of tactics already available that anyone can use.
 * So, while I think it's a useful idea (it works!), I think it isn't helpful to enough players to be valuable to the article.  &mdash; Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 00:57, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Frenzy is much more accessible and, well, easier than this approach. Nix. --JonTheMon 04:48, 31 July 2009 (UTC)