GuildWiki talk:Community portal/Archive 17

Fansite Links
For improving our appearance of Guild Wars community involvement, can we make the link to the Fansite article more prominent (or, more specifically, the link to the list of fansites hosted on GuildWars.com, which can be reached via that article)? I think it just improves our image of community involvement to improve visibility to that link. I'm not sure the best place to put it; the name "Community portal" seems appropriate, but not in the way we currently utilize this article. Perhaps we can link it either from the Main Page or even create a "Fansite Links" entry for the toolbar on the left? --I am 161.88 13:33, 25 May 2006 (CDT)

Mike O'Brien's message to the community
Just a heads up:. Summary: he wonders whether the GuildWiki can be hosted in a more official fashion on Arena Net's servers. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 17:43, 26 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I'm excited about this. - Jack  18:23, 26 May 2006 (CDT)
 * As a second heads up, that account was created today and that post was the very first (and so far only) post made by that user account. - 19:42, 26 May 2006 (CDT)
 * I doubt someone is yanking our chain here, but I have sent a PM to Inde requesting confirmation. 216.218.240.205 19:45, 26 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Looks like Gaile Gray has chimed in too.


 * Yeah, this looks legit. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 19:54, 26 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Well, that's pretty dang awesome. Too bad I can't see the post. (as below) --Tinarto [[Image:Tinarto-gold-Monk-icon-small.png]] 07:35, 27 May 2006 (CDT)


 * The errors have stopped for now, the thread is viewable. --Karlos 18:27, 27 May 2006 (CDT)


 * It's certainly an interesting proposition. I don't have a GWGurus account and I don't intend on getting one simply for this post, so I'll just post my opinions here (although it might make sense to start a proper discussion somewhere else, in which case you have the right to copy my post there).


 * In an ideal situation what would we like to see happen?


 * Being one of the founding members of the GuildWiki I hold it very close to my heart, despite not being as regular a contributor as many of you. I know wikis are not about ego but I take a certain amount of pride in the wiki. The most important principle of the wiki has been to document the Guild Wars universe as faithfully and as clearly as possible (a noble aim), and I have to say that everyone who has helped to reach this goal should also take some personal pride in the wiki. Now, it might sound like I'm droning on (as I am known to do) but I do have a point here.


 * I have mixed feelings about allowing the GuildWiki to be hosted by ArenaNet. It is undoubtedly flattering that ArenaNet know about us. As the GuildWiki increases in popularity (well deserved, I might add, as I know of no other site with such in-depth information on all things Guild Wars) it is no doubt in ArenaNet's best interests to have some sort of control over this medium. My main concern is that this site might be very different if controlled by ArenaNet and not the community. While the removal of advertising would, for me, be welcome, Mike O'Brien has already pointed out that the OblivioWiki link would have to go. This might just be one link, but how much leverage will ArenaNet have over the content of the GuildWiki if they are the hosts?


 * Will we have to censor what is on our user pages? At the moment user pages are regarded as a free area, but if ArenaNet are hosting the wiki would such places be under their juristiction?


 * Would the sysops, currently appointed by the community, still hold their positions or would they come second to ArenaNet sysops?


 * And finally: Would the documenting of Guild Wars be such an achievement if ArenaNet had helped us to do it? Perhaps this is a moot point, some might argue that the aim of GuildWiki is to document the game, and who can document a game better than the developers?


 * I'm not entirely opposed to ArenaNet hosting the GuildWiki, but in many ways I think that our seperation from them has also given us a certain amount of freedom. I hope that you'll consider my points. Thanks.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 19:50, 27 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I've proxied your message there. I am fairly certain Mike O'Brien isn't reading this talk page. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 20:02, 27 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Lol, why the hell not?! :P (Thanks, Stabber)  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 20:03, 27 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Out of interest, how does everyone feel about this? I just wonder if anyone else checks the recent changes more often than they check the forum... :P  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 20:30, 27 May 2006 (CDT)

Please see Community expectations. It tries to crystallize some of the concerns that Karlos, LordBiro and others have raised. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 20:32, 27 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Bloody hell Stabber, how much coffee have you had this evening? (I'm implying you're very quick off the mark)  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 20:34, 27 May 2006 (CDT)

I was just wondering, besides actually hosting the wiki - what else would the wiki benefit from Anet? Any official input? I can think of a few articles that could certainly use a bit of that. Lazy Evan whaomgz 69.124.143.230 20:46, 27 May 2006 (CDT)

It's a good offer, but ultimately unlikely to work out. There is too much blood, sweat and tears invested in this wiki for it to be convertible to an official wiki. Take the builds section. It would have to be cut completely from an official wiki because it's all opinionmongering. An official wiki definitely cannot bless certain builds as "tested" and others as "unfavored". That's actually the big problem -- dissociating what the wiki says from the official word. Regardless of disclaimers, people will take anything written on the wiki as Anet's official word and hold them to it. This is way too much of a risk for Anet. Really, I'm asking myself what Arena Net has to gain from hosting the wiki, and can't think of a good reason.

Also, the only way I see it working from a maintenance perspective is if Arena Net hires Gravewit to maintain the wiki full time, or at least retains him as a paid consultant. Who better knows the ins and outs of the backend system? 141.151.181.135 10:23, 29 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I'm not so sure about the claim that an official wiki cannot have opinions. All that needs is several well-placed disclaimers.  The "favored"/"unfavored" is done by the community, and we can easily have tags that says as much, leaving Anet out of it.  Regardless of ppl's lack of regard of disclaimers, there is nothing those ppl who do not read disclaimers can legally hold Anet to anything.  I don't seem them risking anything.
 * I don't even see why it's necessary to hire Gravewit (though I'm not opposed to it) for maintainence. The backend system is just MediaWiki running on MySQL, which are among the most well-known wiki/database platforms, with just some tweaks.  It's not like Gravewit wrote all the code for GuildWiki from scratch. - 10:29, 29 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I partially agree with anon. It's not a questio of legality, PanSola, but what people will believe. If people believe that the Wiki speaks for Anet, then no amount of dissuasion will change that. Look how every single word uttered by Gaile Gray is interpreted in the most tortured way possible in the forums and in game. Giving the community an official place to bitch and/or speak "for" Arena Net would mean that Arena Net loses all control of their message. In any case, I do believe that if Arena Net hosts the Wiki, they should be much more proactive in policing it. (Or promote a lot more regulars here to sysops or whatever.) &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 11:00, 29 May 2006 (CDT)

Wow, I leave for a four-day camping trip - and the whole world gets spun around when I return! Almsot makes me wish I had stayed home ... then again, naaa, the camping trip was too much fun! Anywhoots; this looks great! I'm reading through that thread now, and will post over there along with everyone else once I figure out the bulk of my thoughts and concerns on this. --- Barek (talk &bull; contribs) - 14:42, 29 May 2006 (CDT)


 * In response to almost everyone before me in this thread, I give you Gares’s Response Segment…


 * Although I was not here from the beginning to witness all the madness with any new project, it has turned out quite well. So well in fact, that when I started playing the game and using GuildWiki, I felt I had to “pay it forward” and contribute so I could help others as other contributors helped me. I have seen the GuildWiki have server problems, latency issues, downtime, having to move to a larger server, using adverts to fund said server, etc, etc. From the technical side, Arena Net helping to maintain the ever-growing GuildWiki is the best offer the GuildWiki could get. Not only using their server(s) and staff, but as Guild Wars increases in campaigns and content, the technical side will fall off Gravewit and Nunix’s, (if he is still around. I don’t really know.), shoulders.


 * As to the freedoms that some are concerned might be taken away if this merger goes through, I don’t think we have anything to worry about. Regarding the Oblivion link, of course Arena Net would want it down, it’s a rival game, but I’m sure as Gravewit and Mike O’Brien hash things out, perhaps something will be done to ensure (as PanSola put it) GameWikis will continue to grow and not be hampered by one wiki not having a link to another.


 * When it comes to “policing” User pages and, for that matter, talk pages, there should be a line drawn. Threats, lewd comments, and foul language have no place anywhere in a wiki. If a user looks to those options as some sort of amusement at the expense of others, than their maturity level is not up to standard to be involved in a community project such as this. I cuss like a sailor, but I do not feel the need to have it printed in a public domain. For those that say, “Users can put anything on their pages”, think if you had a child and they went to GuildWiki for help and next thing you know he/she is asking you what FU-- meant. I’m by no means a parent, but contributors have to look past the ones (other contributors) they see everyday and realize, if they haven’t, that a lot more people than they think use GuildWiki and the user base will only get bigger.


 * Will GuildWiki be seen as an outlet for official ANet material? I don’t see any difference in the content of the official fan sites and an official wiki. People do not take everything said on the fan sites as official ANet material. The only way I see people thinking the wiki information is straight from ANet’s mouth, is if ANet employees start contributing. Yes, tags can be in place, a header tag on the main page stating that the information on Guild Wiki is contributed by the players of Wiki and not by the employees of Arena Net. Any information directly from Arena Net will be stated as such. I know I disregard the main page and go directly to the recent changes page when I come on, so perhaps a disclaimer heading should be added there as well.


 * My 2 cents and then some. --Gares Redstorm 21:41, 31 May 2006 (CDT)

So, any update on this? LordKestrel 09:05, 12 June 2006 (CDT)

and I thought GuildWiki had tons of database errors...
it's nothing compared to the Guru o_O""" - 18:49, 26 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Ironically, as I hit the edit button here, I receive a DB error. It took me over 30 minutes to reply to the Guru thread from all the DB errors. --Gares Redstorm 19:20, 26 May 2006 (CDT)

GuildWiki(MediaWiki) version
According to this Special:Version GuildWiki's version is 1.6.1 maybe upgrading to the latest 1.6.7 MediaWiki Important Release Notes Full Release Notes will solve some of the problems GuildWiki has been currently experiencing. --Phoenix 19:28, 26 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Give it a few months, it'll get updated eventually. LordKestrel 19:05, 31 May 2006 (CDT)
 * That will be nice. --Phoenix 01:40, 7 June 2006 (CDT)

stub?
So... what constitutes a skill stub / an item stub / quest stub / NPC stub / whatever? Is there a place I can find an authortative "these sections must be filled out" "missions need maps but quests/skillcaps dont" or something? Because I'm finding inconsistencies everywhere. For example Mursaat Token is a stub but I honestly can't think of other information to put in it, as is Claw Tallfeather (talk) (compare to other collectors, random example Gwynn) and Offering of Blood. This issue was my major roadblock when I tried to start clearing out stubs (emphasis tried) -- and might be an issue to other new contributors as well. There is no basis to simply compare, since some things that are equal have some stubbed and some not, such as Claw Tallfeather vs Gwynn (do neither deserve stubs? or do both?). It would be easy if all other collectors containing the same information, for a weak example, were unstubbed, but that's simply not the case. Seems half the issue might be that articles don't get stub cleared when they are filled out, but that might be because there isn't a source that defines this sort of thing. Another long, wordy, rambly, it's-hard-to-read-in-this-font paragraph from Tinny. Enjoy. :) --Tinarto 10:49, 27 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Unfortunatly, no. Usually, for most new articles, if nothing is missing that an comparable older article (lets say for skills, items, creatures) has, it is not considered a stub anymore. But unstubbing has so far not been a priority here (which might be a bad thing). --Xeeron 12:40, 27 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Skills: progression 1..16 and and aquisition filled in
 * Collectors: Collectors' info filled in, location
 * Bosses: SoC confirmed, image, location (map good but not a hold back)
 * My criteria, no official ones Skuld  13:52, 27 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I think this task is too large allready and it's getting larger all the time. We would need someone with a lot of time to do a major cleanup. Or maby we could divide certain article types for different people? I could volunteer for something like quests and missions as there is a fairly limited amount of them. I will make a suggestion for some guidelines tomorrow if I remember. Note me on my talke pge if I forget. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 17:05, 27 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Sad but true: Stub tags on GuildWiki are utterly meaningless. :( Do it like me: Ignore them. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 05:04, 29 May 2006 (CDT)


 * We should do a cleanup-drive of the stub types and categories some time. All it takes is some work defining what a stub is -- and what it isn't -- and then some gnoming to iron out the articles already stubbed. I don't have the energy right now, but if noone else does it, I might pick up that torch some time. --Bishop (rap|con) 11:04, 29 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Well, I forgot, but it might not be that important. I think I'll start the work on missions and quests soonish. (in a few days) --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 11:47, 29 May 2006 (CDT)

Dezombified debate on new admins
So we are yet again under attack by a determined vandal during a time period when no sysop is online. This gives me a chance to nominate some new people for sysops. This time around, I present, in no particular order: Discuss. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 13:00, 2 June 2006 (CDT)
 * User:Barek (standard nomination I repeat every time) (contrib)
 * User:Draygo Korvan (contrib)
 * User:Evil Greven (contrib)
 * User:I am 161.88 (contrib)
 * User:Gares Redstorm (contrib)

I nominate: --Bishop (rap|con) 06:08, 3 June 2006 (CDT)
 * User:Skuld (contrib)


 * Took the liberty of adding contrib links to your nominations. Pondering them now. --Bishop (rap|con) 13:07, 2 June 2006 (CDT)
 * All of the mentioned are good suggestions. However, I'm going to second the nomation for Evil Greven for consistent behavior and edits. --Bishop (rap|con) 13:27, 2 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Seconded for User:I am 161.88 and User:Gares Redstorm - Jack  13:04, 2 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I'm all for this. I like all the users nominated.  I'll try to check the block candidates and clean them up in the next few minutes.  --Rainith 13:34, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

Two additional candidates are User:Stabber and User:Tetris L. I seem to recall them both declining nominations in the past; but I still think they would make good admins. --- Barek (talk &bull; contribs) - 13:59, 2 June 2006 (CDT)
 * EDIT: I struck out Stabber solely because her user page makes it clear she has short term plans regarding being on GuildWiki. Although, I still think she would make a good admin. --- Barek (talk &bull; contribs) - 16:12, 2 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I would second both of those, was it not because I respect a decision to remain a non-admin. I'm sure we would know if either had a change of heart. --Bishop (rap|con) 14:02, 2 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Tetris is already an admin &mdash; Skuld  04:02, 3 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I thought that too, but not according to http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki?title=Special%3AListusers&group=sysop&username= --Bishop (rap|con) 05:56, 3 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Speaking of which, I just noticed you're not on that list. I thought you were already an admin too. I shall attempt to remedy my oversight (see above). --Bishop (rap|con) 06:08, 3 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Oh! I knew there was a third name I had wanted to add to the list, it was Skuld! Sorry Skuld! --- Barek (talk &bull; contribs) - 08:35, 3 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I'd like to apologise for not being around the last few days... Although I think you all kind of expect it from me anyway :P I don't really know many of the people in the list, Stabber, so I'll have to remain silent I think.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 14:50, 2 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I believe all three of us, Skuld, Tetris and myself, have said before that we don't want to be sysops. I, at least, don't desire the position, and given that I have been nominated for bans before, I don't believe I am sysop material anyhow. For the rest, I think it is about time we formalized an RfA process. I'll get the ball rolling now. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 15:07, 3 June 2006 (CDT)


 * The ball, she rolls! Requests for adminship. Much of it is adapted from WP:RfA. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 15:54, 3 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Looks good, Stabber. Nice work. --Bishop (rap|con) 16:19, 3 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Hmmm, I actually don't see a need for a new admin, though I don't mind if all these people became admins. The true question is, is any of them going to be on-line during that time of the day (usually 6 AM to 2 PM PST) when most other admins aren't. If the reason for the promotion is to fill in that void, should we not make sure they CAN fill that void? If they can't, they are still all worthy of being admins, but I want to stay on the ball here. --Karlos 19:40, 2 June 2006 (CDT)


 * It seems Stabber would be the ideal choice for an admin, it's obvious from the way she makes the necessary edits. However, you can't force a position on someone. Shame. - Jack  15:14, 3 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I would actually be opposed to Stabber being an admin. I don't think an admin who threatens to leave the wiki every month is a good thing. On top of that, she's a highly opinionated contributor who contributes a lot. We're still trying to survive the last highly opinionated contributor who contributes a lot (me). :) And yes, I don't think I make that good of an admin, I get involved in too many things too deeply to be able to step back and exercise my role as admin. --Karlos 16:06, 3 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I agree Karlos, you're a crap admin :P Hehe, only kidding. I think anyone who is active and passionate about the GuildWiki makes a good admin. Of course, they also have to be reasonable and realise that, even if they're certain they're right, decisions on the GuildWiki are made as a collective and not as an individual.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 16:54, 3 June 2006 (CDT)

Bwahaha, that's why I love this wiki. Half a dozen people get nominated for adminship, and half of them turn it down on the spot! Evan The Cursed (Talk) 23:15, 4 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Personally, I would accept if officially asked; but, as Karlos pointed out above, this request for an additional admin is because there's a gap in coverage during the weekday. I think that my availability during that time is limited, so I doubt that I'm the best fit for this round of admin nominations.  Don't get me wrong, I would love to support the community further by being an admin; I just think that if only one additional admin is to be added, then the community would be better served by someone with more availability from 6am - 2pm PST. --- Barek (talk &bull; contribs) - 00:34, 5 June 2006 (CDT)
 * The vandal was only an excuse to take this admin debate out of cryogenic freeze. I think the wiki just needs more admins period. Currently we have Rainith doing the majority of the gruntwork with Karlos and LordBiro (and sometimes 84.175) chiming in occasionally to keep up appearances. PanSola seems to mostly tend to his own projects, of which there are several underway. Given that we have a pretty large userbase at this point, I don't think the 3.5 admins or so is sufficient (Special:Statistics says the admin to user ratio is 0.16%, but it overcounts the registered users and undercounts IPs, so that's not reliable). This is even more relevant if the GuildWiki becomes official and our userbase grows even larger. My recommendation would be to add a bunch of admins (3-5) at once instead of just one. There are several very well qualified candidates who have already received a lot of supporting votes. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 00:55, 5 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I have to agree with Stabber. Its not that there may be a down time between the usual hours of an admin, its that there is not enough admins around. I am on in that time period Karlos suggested (actually, always lurking around) and I have had times where I placed a ban on a vandal and had to play shadow reverting his vandalism because there was no admin around to ban him, so he/she just kept on rolling. It's not a time clock that you punch, where one admin punches out and another punches in. Admins have real life responsibilities as well and sometimes they will not be on for a period of time, thus lower the already low numbers of admins on GuildWiki. --Gares Redstorm 13:18, 5 June 2006 (CDT)
 * I see your point. Maybe I'll modify my decline comment on the nomination list.  To me, the primary goal seemed to be to find an admin who had a higher likelihood of weekday availability.  If the goal is to improve over-all admin coverage at all hours, then I'm willing to become one if asked. --- Barek (talk &bull; contribs) - 13:29, 5 June 2006 (CDT)

Policy and sigs. The Subst Crusade!
First is there any Policy difference between wikipedia and Guildwiki concerning sigs?  If that policy is followed sigs should I am aware of We are not Wikipedia, and if we are applying the sig rules we should probably port that article and start linking to it internally. Wikipidia itself makes several good arguements for following those rules:
 * Not use Images
 * custom sigs be only included once with subst: e.g.  
 * not use any templates themselves
 * 1) Many concerns have been raised over the use of images in signatures, and they are considered to serve no use to the encyclopedia project. Images in signatures should not be used for several reasons:
 * 2) They use unnecessary server resources, and could cause server slowdown.
 * 3) A new image can be uploaded in place of the one you chose, making your signature a target for possible vandalism and Denial-of-service attacks.
 * 4) They reduce searchability, making pages more difficult to read.
 * 5) They make it more difficult to copy text from a page,
 * 6) They are potentially distracting from the actual message.
 * 7) In most browsers images do not scale with the text, making lines with images higher than those without.
 * 8) They clutter up the file links list of the image every time you sign on a different talk page.
 * 9) Your signature should not blink, or otherwise be designed to annoy other editors. Avoid markup such as &lt;big&gt; tags (which produce big text), or line breaks, and be sparing with superscript or subscript
 * 10) Long signatures with lots of HTML/wiki markup can make page editing more difficult
 * 11) Avoid using page transclusion, templates, or parser functions in signatures (like those which appear as, for example). These are avoidable drains on server resources. Transcluded signatures require extra processing. Whenever you do change your signature source, all talk pages you've posted on must be re-cached. 
 * 12) *If you really must use a userpage as a source of boilerplate for your signature, at least substitute it so it is only transcluded once, for example  .

Now that I have opened this can of worms, discuss. --Draygo Korvan 12:07, 5 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Is there much use of templates (page transclusions) as sigs in GuildWiki? I hadn't noticed many, but you may have noticed some during your updates this morning.  The use of templates is the only issue that, to me, we should specifically create a policy against.  The use of images doesn't seem to have been abused by the GuildWiki community (see Category:Templates/User signatures), so I see no problem allowing them.  Although we may want to set a policy of sig images can't be larger than some given size.  Not a problem thus far, but reasonable to prevent future issues.
 * If they are causing any significant contribution to server performance problems, then I could see adopting the full wikipedia policy; but I honestly don't see them as being major contributors to performance issues at this time. --- Barek (talk &bull; contribs) - 13:24, 5 June 2006 (CDT)


 * MediaWiki 1.6 doesn't allow you to make signature transclusions (unless you defeat it with a double transclusion, but no one does that... right?). The issue is mostly to do with legacy signatures. The server drain you are afraid of is not so huge because talk pages are naturally colder than article pages. The biggest problem is with the recaching penalty whenever a signature changes, but again, most pages using a signature will not be in the object cache anyhow so a recache penalty is moot. Furthermore, user signatures tend to be fairly static. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 14:05, 5 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Personally I don't think it's much of an issue.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 14:28, 5 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Ok lets say we have our own policy on it, and you want to allow images. Then we definatly need to create our own policy page on sigs that outlines the rules that we want to follow. And when I was going through the pages this morning cleaning up the unsigned template and giving it a proper subst, i often ran across the format for sigs instead of it being included with subst. Secondly, we have seen performance problems on the wiki, and I definatly dont think it would hurt anything if we put some guidelines in place.


 * The problem with images are more than just server performance, storage, search interference but also vandalism concerns. Lets say someone (this is only an example, not to pick on Gem) but someone changes the Gem to a picture of goatse. All the sudden almost every single talk page will be spammed with that picture. I think that is my main concern with the widespread use of an image. Most of the content images on the site are pretty much one or two pages only, so if some form of vandalism was done to those images, it would probably be picked up in Recent Changes much faster than any guest of the site actually viewing it.


 * The same applies to sigs not using subst. A vandal can edit that page to create all sorts of messes, and if were not watching recentchanges the user can mess up hundreds (in some user's cases, 500 pages or so actually) of pages. And the casual guildwiki user might not know where to actually go to fix it. (lets say someone takes PanSola's sig and makes it 5mb long filled with X's. Doing so would probably DESTROY the guildwiki server, considering that the server will go to the 250 or so pages pansola's sig is referenced in and make the caching changes. In addition to the 5mb will have to be sent any time a user visits one of the 250 or so talk pages Pan used the sig in.).


 * The vandalism and Denial-of-Service risk is way too high to allow that sort of linking. A smart vandal can probably bring the guildwiki server to its knees in a matter of seconds. While we can not prevent some forms of vandalism, we should take every reasonable action to make vandalism minimal. The server drain on valid and reasonable signatures now, is not high. But it easily can be and I think policy should be set forth to prevent that before we find ourselves in a real mess. --Draygo Korvan 14:38, 5 June 2006 (CDT)


 * The transcluded sigs you encountered are all legacy signatures from when we used MediaWiki 1.5. Recaching on signatures is not active, like you fear, but lazy ("on demand"). The only active thing that happens when a transcluded page is changes is that all referring pages are invalidated in the object cache. They are not immediately re-rendered and injected into the cache. So, with PanSola's signature example, unless the signature terrorist immediately follows the signature hijack with a simultaneous load of all 250 pages that refer to it, there will be no performance penalty. As far as DOS goes, I don't think signatures are the most likely vector of attack. It is far more efficient to hijack a common template such as Template:Stub or Template:TOCright. Note also that most users watch their own signatures. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 14:47, 5 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Even if its lazy, we do have several users browsing the site, it can at minimum cause the server pain. Templates you mention like TOCRight need to be protected anyway (because there is no reason to change them at all). Such vunerabilities do need to get plugged. I would recommend protecting any template page referenced at least 25 times. Any proposed changes would have to be done on an editcopy. --Draygo Korvan 14:57, 5 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Given how few admins we have and how glacial the process of getting the attention of an admin tends to be (at least when Rainith is not around), I don't think protecting templates is a good idea. It is premature at any rate. The clueful vandal who knows how best to place his explosive charges is a rara avis. Most vandals we get limit their nuisance to blanking pages or spraying graffiti on them. While I certainly don't oppose your subst crusade (though there are more efficient ways of doing it than by hand; ask if you want to know), I think we can afford to have open policies until a more restrictive policy is forced upon us. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 15:09, 5 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I support changing the leagacy signatures and replacing them with a subst version. I'll do that on my own signatures now. However removing images doesn't seem to serve a purpose. We could protect the signature images if you think it is necessary. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 15:17, 5 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I implore you -- don't do it by hand. Special:Recentchanges doesn't need any more pollution. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 15:19, 5 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Feel free to use a bot for it. I thought your bot was removed, but if it wasn't then go ahead. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 15:22, 5 June 2006 (CDT)


 * It probably was. However, this is not such a pressing issue that it must be done right this instant. We can afford to be civilized about it. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 15:31, 5 June 2006 (CDT)
 * I wasnt going to attempt to do the user sigs, changing them to subst by hand, there are well over 2,000 pages that would need changes definatly need to use a bot for that. There is a reason why I fixed up the unused template this morning instead of now.I see your reasoning why certain templates shouldnt be locked, but I do think we should lock the templates that will never or very rarely change that are used across many pages. For instance like the image and the template, I dont see this ever changing in the future, so it could be easily protected. Templates like TOCright probably shouldnt be locked till we decide how they should be (I'd advocate the use of the div instead of table). However, on the same issue, if we ever move to arenanet's servers you can bet your life that some really bad forms of vandalism might show up. But on the flip side we would have more admins floating around. And if skuld gets admin that would aleviate some of our administrative woes.


 * Bottom line is, the only reason I am bringing this up, is because we do not really have a policy on GuildWiki over sigs. I think we should. At first we can make it very liberal and just list the most obvious things (how to make and properly use custom signatures, use of the unsigned template, image size restrictions etc). This would be much better than having the unsigned template point to wikipedia which, obviously, does not share the same 'rules' as here.


 * And I agree, this is not a pressing issue, but a recent issue that is bothering me a little bit. --Draygo Korvan 15:38, 5 June 2006 (CDT)


 * There are only 2 reasons I use transclusion for my sig.


 * 1) The raw signature code is long and fancy and not important to other ppl, so they would've been simply making the talk page harder to follow in edit mode.
 * 2) My signature contain links that aren't directly to my user page or talk page.  If I ever change those links, old signatures without subst will become broken links (or at least broken Anchors), which means a crusade needs to be done over tons of pages for something as trivial as a change in my sig.
 * I'm not discussing whether I support Draygo Korvan's ideas or not. I am just explaining my original motivation for doing what I did. - 12:48, 6 June 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm fine with that really. Even though I would prefer it not be done (I honestly think when you sign something, in real life or on wikipidea the signature should be unchangeable, a permanent mark). (You can use redirects to solve #2). However, because Guildwiki policy (obviously) isnt the same as wikipidea in respect to signatures, I think we need to create our own policy page on this issue. And to #1, I dont think your signature is too long in edit mode. In addition, if we were following wikipedia's policy, only links to your user page and talk pages would be allowed. --Draygo Korvan 13:01, 6 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I'm not a big fan of transclusions for sigs. I would rather see a semi-permanent sig used that left an edit trail in the article/discussion page if it were ever changed.
 * As for other concerns about transclusions; the server load is relatively minor, although I could see where it could be a potential issue if it ever came into wide-scale usage. But even then, it's just on discussion pages which don't get nearly the traffic of articles, so it's not stressing me at all. --- Barek (talk &bull; contribs) - 13:21, 6 June 2006 (CDT)

noinclude?
Can someone tell me what the noinclude tag is for on each skill page? If we are moving all the skills into Template:Skill, why not just call that instead? Sincerely, Confused. - Jack  20:38, 6 June 2006 (CDT)
 * It's legacy code. If a skill article is already calling its same-named template, then you can get rid of the noinclude tag. - 22:17, 6 June 2006 (CDT)

Guru featured template
Would a template and category listing pages featured on guru be useful? &mdash; Skuld  09:38, 8 June 2006 (CDT)

running guides?
Can we make some running guides for all runs and mission runs?.. I know we have the W/any Sanctum Cay Runner and W/Mo Bold Forge Runner but i think we need some more.--WichmanN 03:31, 14 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I don't think we should add running guides for every possible area and outpost. We have the most important ones allready, Drok's and Sanctum. As a runner I can say: Guides don't help you much, it's experience that you need. You can find all maps from the wiki and the basic running builds. Now you just need to go out and try it out for yourself. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 03:57, 14 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I think Gem's being just a tiiinie bit protective of his income source. I can't see any problem with having more running guides. If you like, you could start adding some more guides and possibly an index page with red links. That will get the ball rolling for sure, but you'll likely need to be prepared to put some effort into it yourself. -- [[Image:Bishop_icon2.png]] Bishop [ rap|con ] 05:35, 14 June 2006 (CDT)


 * There are also running guides for all desert places in the Category:Guides. If you want some more, go ahead and create them =) --Xeeron 06:50, 14 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Not overly protective. Cheap runners just aren't a threat to me as I have a well established and too rich customer base. I just don't think its wort it. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 07:08, 14 June 2006 (CDT)
 * I'll gladly correct information on any running guides created, but I will not put my time to creating them. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 07:10, 14 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Well then I will give it a try.--WichmanN 08:02, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

ZBoard
Hey folks, the zboard people dropped me a line wanting to send out a keyboard for review. The keyboard IS Guild Wars-specific, so I figure this is not out of the scope of the site. What do you think?

I personally don't want the thing, so I figured if one of you did, you can have it. Mods have first dibs. Gravewit 10:52, 15 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I'm interested, but if anyone has a viable contest idea I would support using it as contest prize. On the other hand, maybe PvP ppl should be given preference, since they might be able to review it better. - 10:58, 15 June 2006 (CDT)


 * It would be so cool to have one, but I think there are people who need it more. A contest sounds good. How about something that rewards helping the wiki in some way? --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 11:04, 15 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Btw: Can they send it outside North America? I don't think so. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 11:05, 15 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Got a picture of it?--Draygo Korvan 11:06, 15 June 2006 (CDT)
 * A contest sounds good. --Xeeron 11:42, 15 June 2006 (CDT)
 * A link from guildwars.com: http://www.zboard.com/experience/guildwars/ --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 13:40, 15 June 2006 (CDT)
 * What a nice keyboard.. :D --WichmanN 15:04, 15 June 2006 (CDT)
 * The Zboard is overrated bullpoop. And no version exists for left-handed users. -- [[Image:Bishop_icon2.png]] Bishop [ rap|con ] 15:08, 15 June 2006 (CDT)
 * What do you mean with "left-handed users"?... --WichmanN 15:21, 15 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Oh, and if you use anyhting else than a US qwerty, this is useless. The (in Finland) very often used ä and ö (and the useless å) are not to be found in the US keyboards. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 15:24, 15 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Well then maybe its not so good if you, like me, comes from Denmark where we use: æ, ø and å... :'( --WichmanN 15:29, 15 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Hmmm, I would think we need to look at this more objectively. Who gets the keyboard is not as relevant as "what will they be looking for?" If we agree on that, it doesn't really matter who gets the keyboard.
 * Also, whoever gets the keyboard should have the time and the capacity to test it in different environments. Mainly, RA and TA then HoH then GvG and then Challenge Missions, Competitive missions and finally, PvE.
 * I would recommend Xeeron, he is an admin and a person able to look at things fairly objectively. The only catch is that he is in Germany I believe. Can you ship that far, Gravewit? --Karlos 17:12, 15 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Last time I checked I was no admin =)
 * More important, German keyboards use special keys as well (öäü), so I guess it would not work for me as well. Sounds like this will be for US/english users only. --Xeeron 17:37, 15 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Maybe I need one, stupid edit conflict, current non detachable keyboard holding me back! Xeeron should be an admin, the RFA vote is at 8/0/0 but Phil hasn't done it yet. I was going to say Xeeron would be good "because I think he's pretty fair and even handed, probably useful traits to have if you're a reviewer" so maybe we'll have to go for plan B, you know some kinda crazy deathmatch, 2 people enter, one walks out, and have a draw like the world cup. Geez Xeeron you could have just said yes instead of forcing the GuildWiki community to fight to the death over it, which is the only fair competition I can think of :P --Xasxas256 17:43, 15 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Just a quick side note on becoming admin: Skuld had the most positiv votes and he became admin, which is exactly the way it should work in my opinion. If we need further admins, we can go to the next person in line. --Xeeron 03:14, 16 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Hmm, you're not an admin? When did you get demoted? :)
 * Anyways, we need to know Gravewit's shipping abilities. I am in the US and I can do it. I can pretty much easily test it in any playing style. Those interested should indicate which playing styles they can or cannot cover. If you're an ardent PvE guy then you are not very useful in testing this. You should also be competent in PvP. --Karlos 18:21, 15 June 2006 (CDT)

I think it's a bad idea for the GuildWiki to host Guild Wars-related product reviews. By their very nature these will not be neutral articles. Note that we don't have guild pages, fanfiction, fancomics, "journals" (except in user pages) and so on because the reason has always been that it is impossible to be objective about such content. We don't even have an official review of Guild Wars! There is also the issue of whether we should have such overtly commercial content in the wiki (reviews, unless they are pans, are glorified advertisements). I think the gamewikis blog is a much better place for such product review articles. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 18:31, 15 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Upon further review, I agree with Stabber. It's not really what we do. This is product placement. The entry for ZBoard should be the same as that for Ventrilo or TeamSpeak. Just a basic description of what that is. Not a review/thumbs up/thumbs down. We're not gonna put a user manual in the wiki for how to use it either. --Karlos 19:13, 15 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Oh, the review is supposed to go in the wiki? That doesn't sound too good to me. But it's not too bad either because it is a directly GW related product. As long as the review is neutral and formal I'm ok with it. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 02:10, 16 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I think it should be halfway between Team Speak and Prima Guide. The art work had to be licensed from Anet, and the GuildWars.com homepage has a square-ish banner for the zBoard.  - 03:18, 16 June 2006 (CDT)

They must be desperate to get rid of them if they're trying to offload one onto you Phil ;) I don't think it's necessarily outside the scope of the site, but I agree with Stabber. Imagine if we were to create the article Zboard or something. What would it actually contain? It's always been understood that articles on the GuildWiki should only contain factual information, so we'd just have to say "Here are some pictures, it's used to control Guild Wars".

If we decided to change our policy and review it then we'd be opening the doors to all kinds of articles. By the time you've read this message Microsoft Intellimouse Explorer will be up for Peer Review.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 08:40, 16 June 2006 (CDT)

Site performance issues due to June 15 update
According to Gravewit, the server load is doing fine. The problem is bandwidth bottleneck. In case anyone is wondering. - 11:05, 16 June 2006 (CDT)

Blocking Vandals
We had a vandal attacking the page today using multiple IPs. I'm not sure if there is a procedure for dealing with this, I blocked individual IPs to begin with, but then I blocked an IP range.

From a technical point of view, after looking at the block list, it appears User:Eightyfour-onesevenfive tried to block him earlier using a 0 to represent the range of IP addresses. For clarification, the correct way to block an ip such as 64.12.116.x is to block 64.12.116.0/24. This is because an IP address is a 32-bit number and it tells MediaWiki to use only the first 24 bits as a mask.

I blocked 64.12.116.0/24 and 64.12.117.0/24.

Because this was a range of IP addresses I only banned them for 1 week. Do you think this was the right thing to do?  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 05:01, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * We could not let him stay without blocking so you did the right thing blocking him. One week seems ok to me, and if this happens again after the week, we can just ban him for another week. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 05:04, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Heh, only a week? &mdash; Skuld  05:06, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Blocking a whole IP range for more than a week isn't a good idea. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 05:08, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Meh, I should've thought of that "/24" thingie... *rolls eyes*. I agree on only a short term ban for now, but I have the serious feeling that this isn't the last time we heared about that one. --84-175 (talk) 05:14, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * 64.12.116.0/23! --68.142.13.99 05:40, 17 June 2006 (CDT)

yeah he only banned me for a week. too bad it didnt work. btw: poop


 * lol. I should be around most of the day, if there's any more vandalism that I miss you can spam my talk page.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 05:13, 17 June 2006 (CDT)

IP range bans can be bad, granted, but we're talking about AOL addresses here. I wonder if he was repeatedly connecting and disconnecting his dial-up modem or something (nothing against dial-up, it's just an idiotic way to change IPs). ;) &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 05:17, 17 June 2006 (CDT) )


 * Yeah, it looks like that is what he was doing. Coincidentally 152.163.100.9 is also an AOL IP.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 05:24, 17 June 2006 (CDT)

Blocking IP Ranges: A suggestion
I've been thinking about blocking IP ranges, and I think we should come up with a guideline. When blocking an IP range there is a chance that we will inadvertently also block genuine contributors. This cannot really be helped. However, we can ensure that genuine contributors are not offended by the banning if we make sure the ban message is not insulting. i.e. I think we should avoid ban messages such as "Die Spammer, Die!" or even "let's play".

What do you think?  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 05:34, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * IP range blocks should probably not stay in place for long unless absolutely necessary. I think it would be better to keep any non-insignificant range blocked for a week at most unless the vandal shows again.  A message about IP range blocks should be added to MediaWiki:Blockedtext and perhaps something like "IP range block: reason" should be the ban reason.  Non-insulting ban message should probably be used in any case.  --68.142.13.99 05:41, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I think the Blockedtext should have a general note about the error possibilities of IP based bans (dynamic IPs). --84-175 (talk) 05:48, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I agree. Here's what the text currently looks like

Your user name or IP address has been blocked by $1. The reason given is this: $2

You may contact $1 or one of the other administrators to discuss the block.

(If this automated message says you have been blocked by Adam.skinner for vandalism, it is due to a known bug. Please wait a few minutes and try again.)

Note that you may not use the "e-mail this user" feature unless you have a valid e-mail address registered in your user preferences.

Your IP address is $3. Please include this address in any queries you make.

Which parts should we change to reflect this information?  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 06:10, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I'd suggest ripping off Wikipedia's and warping it to our needs. --68.142.13.99 06:42, 17 June 2006 (CDT)
 * I would also suggest contacting the ISP of the user and file an internet abuse report with their support department, if such a user is using a dynamic IP to continually and repeativly deface the site. --Draygo Korvan 18:47, 17 June 2006 (CDT)

Vote

 * Keep the green links
 * (your vote here)
 * Use the icon
 * (your vote here)
 * Use plain text
 * --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] Green links as second choice. No for icon.
 * --MRA (while I would rather like to see the icon than the technicolor-links)

In case green links wins:


 * Bold
 * (your vote here)
 * Normal
 * --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]]

Discussion
I'm not sure if or where this has been discussed before, but I recently encountered several wikilinks leading to unique items in boldface typeset and green characters, see Rotscale or Gargash Thornbeard for instance.

From a design persepective, I am not very happy about this idea, since (beside the fact that boldface rarely is a good design decision) it weighs to heavy in the eye, distracts the reader from the text and makes the page too colorful by a color that does not belong to GuildWikis usual color palette. Moreover, since the color of wikilinks used to be connected to some functionality aspects of the site (like 'red' impliyng the article doesn't exist) I find this somewhat confusing. I really believe mere being an unique item doesn't qualify for an own link color. What comes next? Each boss getting a link in the color of their profession, like #FF0088 or #008800?

If there has already been a community decision/vote upon this matter please give me a hint where to find the discussion and please excuse for bringing up the matter again. --MRA 08:44, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I agree. I hate the green links.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 09:12, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I like them and have nothing against them. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 11:50, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Use your own CSS to override them. See User:Deldda Kcarc/monobook.css for how I do it, because I hate technicolor links also. Deldda Kcarc 12:17, 17 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Thanks for the hint, but my comment was less about how I can avoid these links and rather about how this wiki presents itself to the casual reader per se. --MRA 12:33, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Yeah, I'm fully aware I could remove them. That's besides the point really. I think it makes sense from a usability perspective to have links blue and underlined, and to have links to blank pages red, and no other colours. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 13:28, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * While I am not arguing in favor of the green links, I would like to point out that they do have blue underlines for created articles, and red underlines for missing articles. --Rainith 13:41, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * No harm, some benefit, echoes ANet's growing obsession with green items. I am fine with them. If the template is straight forward, and the effect is desirable, then why not? --Karlos 15:55, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Like Rainith pointed out they do show red or blue underlines, and how many green item templates are to red links anyway? I'm sure users find it helpful to have uniques picked out different from regular items &mdash; Skuld  16:13, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I understood your point perfectly, MRA and LordBiro. My suggestion was a short circuit to the only workable solution because I expected the strong showing of support for the green links, as seen above. If this were to be put to a vote, our side would lose soundly. Deldda Kcarc 17:37, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I don't agree that it does no harm. Personally I believe that valid links should be blue, underlined, not bold. It's what people expect to see. If links don't look like this as standard then it's confusing. We could change all links to a different style, but having some links using one style and some links using another style is a bad design choice.


 * Because the green colour is unusual within the GuildWiki itself you have to move your mouse over the text to clarify if it's a link or not. That is really poor interface design.


 * I don't think this is a case of "no harm, some benefit". There are plenty of items ArenaNet colour purple or light blue, we don't change our links to reflect that. Equally Henchmen are coloured green and friendly NPCs are coloured yellow-green and we don't use those colours for links. Enemies are coloured red, and we don't use red for links. It just seems like a bad idea to me.


 * I wouldn't even mind if an icon was used next to links to unique items, at least then the link itself would still be blue! <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 18:29, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * P.S. Sorry if it feels like I'm picking on you today Karlos, I love you really :P
 * I would say get rid of the boldface but go ahead and leave it green. --Draygo Korvan 18:49, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I think removing the boldface might be a good idea, but I still want the green to stay. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 19:03, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I am fine with removing it, fine with removing the bold and fine even with switching the template to an icon of a green weapon next to a regular blue link. I just think distinguishing the drops is cool and does no harm. --Karlos 19:11, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * The boldface is kinda blatant, but distinguishing green drops from normals is not a bad thing, don't you think? I think LordBiro has made a very good suggestion there. An icon to point them out would be less confusing than the formatting. --Nilles 19:42, 17 June 2006 (CDT)

Oh god no! Not more icons, keep the green text, unbold it if you want. --Rainith 20:13, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Hope you like it Rainith ;) <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 07:31, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I see the green template as straight to the point what the items are. In Guild Wars their text is always green and I would think users associate that color to those items. As for icons, I am in agreement with Rainith on this one, for the love of Pete, no. You have skill icons, what more do you need? :P --Gares Redstorm 07:42, 18 June 2006 (CDT)

Most of all, I don't understand why unique items should be so special to Guild Wars that they deserve a special representation on the technical layer of this wiki (the color of the hyperlinks). Of course, unique items are special compared to common items, but no more special than Boss mobs are special to common mobs, Elite Skills are special to common Skills or Elite Missions are special to usual storyline Missions, etc. Are we going to give all these special topics some special representation on the technical layer, or why are unique items so special special? (Ok, I'll stop using the word special now.)

BTW, LordBiro, the icon looks really nice, but I don't understand what is wrong with a simple listing like:


 * Items dropped
 * Thornbeard's Horned Bow (Unique)
 * Enslavement Stone
 * Dwarven Armor
 * Stone Summit Badge

as we have:


 * Skills used
 * Melandru's Arrows (Elite)
 * Precision Shot
 * Tiger's Fury
 * Troll Unguent

--MRA 15:02, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I have to say MRA you are right, I hadn't thought of it like that. I just tend to like icons :P but you make a valid point. If a lot of people would rather have icons then fair enough, at the moment I'm somewhere in between icons and plain text. But still 100% against bold and/or green links. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 15:10, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I also have to admit that I would prefer some lean icon like the one you proposed over the green text links. Taking server load into account, I just think some plain text comments like given in the example above would be wiser.
 * So what is going to happen about this issue? I also notice some strong support for the green links within the community. Is there going to be some vote or is it still too early for such a thing? --MRA 15:31, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Vote sounds like the way to go, since strong support was voiced for each option. I'll add one at the top. --Xeeron 15:41, 18 June 2006 (CDT)

Request for demotion of User:Karlos
I know this will fall on deaf ears, and Karlos will surely revert this and ban me the second he sees it, but he does not deserve to be a sysop on this wiki any longer. He has wantonly violated several key policies of the wiki today, not the least of which violations is abusing his sysop powers to exert editorial control over another user's pages and impose week-long blocks on said user.

It is completely foolish of me to even suggest this demotion because the wiki has no oversight policies and no means of appeal for administrative action. However, I am making it so there is some record, however fleeting, of opposition to Karlos' actions.

Because I am confident nothing will come of this request, I have requested all the evidence---my user pages---to be erased. I am sure none of my requests for deletion will be honored. I am further sure that, far from demotion, the wiki will circle their wagons around Karlos and will do whatever is necessary to make Karlos' actions retroactively justified and me out to be the sole guilty party. I understand the nature of communities well enough to see the utter futility in my bringing this up here and now. Therefore, this request for demotion is a mere formality.

I will not read or comment on the wiki after this comment. I do not wish the wiki well. I wish it the worst.

-- DK 03:54, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Lol. No need to comment, but I still will. There is NO point in the recent disputes which have caused so many users to leave the wiki. I find the fighting here stupid (and funny if it wouldn't have such results), but I relly can't do anything about it. I'm not sure what you think that was wrong use of admin powers by Karlos, but I myself don't like it that you delete individual comments on your user page from other people. Removing negative feedback isn't a way to work in a wiki. You should answer and discuss, not just delete, delete and then finally place a delete tag so that your history of negative feedback will vanish. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 04:05, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Fall on your sword again Stabber/Deldda Kcarc, see if it works this time. --Rainith 04:13, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Wha? Deldda is Stabber? This is confusing, i'm going to stamp on some chipmonks -_- &mdash; Skuld  04:22, 18 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Confused? I wasn't as soon as I saw Stabber upload Image:Black Moa Availability.jpg and then upload it again almost right afterwards.  I went to see if the first image needed deleting for some reason, but after I saw it, I decided not to wipe it out.  It actually made me laugh.  Then I started looking thru some of DK's old edits and noticed a lot of similarities, including the ones done today (FSK skill icon uploads, that were altered exactly the same way Stabber's were).  Add in the Superman/Clark Kent action and it makes sense.  --Rainith 05:05, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Hah! Extremely amusing! He's referring to this. Hee hee. :) I actually went with him (I assume it's safe to say him now) to FoW and even in a group in Cantha in some mission (I think beating Shiro). So, FG was right about (some of) the sockpuppets theory. Wow. --Karlos 05:13, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I don't think you should be rubbing your hands with too much glee. I don't feel as though you should be off the hook yet. Like PanSola (see below), I also disagree with your actions during the "DK incident". You seem to think that your edits have some "administrator power" behind them when they're basically just normal edits anyone else would do except the person who's doing them happens to be an admin. --Xasxas256 05:27, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * No glee, sir. Sheer amusement. I find the whole saga captivating at this moment. And I responded below. --Karlos 05:33, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Not going to comment on this request itself, but I do disagree with Karlos' actions pretty much completely during the relavent dispute (including the bans and the reverts) - 04:23, 18 June 2006 (CDT)
 * See my thoughts on Karlos' actions at User_talk:Karlos. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 04:31, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I will take this request seriously, even if Crack Addled does not. Here is my reasoning:
 * I believe that significant discussions of a user's contributions should be maintained. If a user does not like the "bad rap" on his talk page, then the content should be moved elsewhere. But to wipe it from existence is to cheat the community. I know it's in the history books, but that means it's not "searchable" i.e. findable.
 * I was wrong to place the saved copy in his user space. I was thinking it would be an easy place to find it, but of course if he never wanted it in his talk page to begin with, he won't like it in his user space either. I took that part out of the equation pretty quickly and moved the talk to non-user space.
 * I did not ban Crack Addled because I was trying to force some page on his user space. In fact, I honored his right to place a delete tag on it. I banned him for a couple of hours because he was butting heads with an admin over administrative policies. Now, I could have just moved it out of his user space and let it rest, but, like I said to PanSola, the precedent of Rving an admin on an administrative edit and ignoring his instructions isa VERY bad precedent.
 * I agree with Gem that deleting criticism from one's talk page is lame. We should perhaps consider keeping track of this? The reason I wanted to archive Crack Addled's talk is because he has a history with the wiki and I wanted there to be a continuation of that history. I did not want that history to be subject to whether Karlos is till around, or whether Pansola still remembers which talk page that discussion was wiped from.
 * I believe Crack's further actions and words speak for themselves. Overall, he could have went to the talk page of that article and said: "Look, this might belong in the wiki, but it sure as heck does not belong in my user space, if I don't want it." And he would have won that argument by a landslide. He chose the path of "It's me or you" and "let's make it personal baby." I would expect any user in this wiki when told by an admin not to change a page (for administrative purposes, not squabble over content) to respect that request. Be that user someone I like, like Gem, or an anonymous guy.
 * --Karlos 04:52, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I challenge the concept of administrative edits -- what you consider as administrative edits are edits where, from my perspective, edits that are of equal level as other user edits, but which you think have more leverage and power. Any edits I have made in reverting or attemptting to moderate discussions since becoming an admin, I would've made them anyways even if I were just a regular user.  Thus, from my perspective, your banning for the reason that the user in question reverted your "administrative edit" was uncalled for, and I disagree with its justification. - 04:45, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Then you and I have orthogonal views on this matter. You're saying that, let's say there is a revert war between two users, and you step in and say "Ok, stop" that if either of them RVs your edit you would just let it go? Say, ok, they have a right to edit my edits?
 * The concept of an administrative edit is clear and is there. You may choose to say I will not exercise my power in this incident because it bring about more good, or for whatever reason. However, if you're saying that an Admin can be reverted on administrative requests (don't edit this page, don't revert, don't overwrite this image, ...) then you and I see the role and power of an admin quite differently. --Karlos 05:07, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Indeed we do disagree and see things differently. If there is a revert war going on, and someone reverted a request of mine asking them to stop the revert war, I would treat it exactly the same manner as if another user (non admin) has stepped in to ask people to stop the revert war, and get reverted.  Would that have resulted in a page protection or banning of the revert war participants, that depends on the circumstances.  However, any random user, even an anon, stepping in and telling people to stop the revert war are, from my perspective, of the exact same level and value compared to an edit by me to tell people to stop the revert war.  Any user, even anon, saying "don't revert / don't edit this page / don't overwrite this image / ..." do have, from my perspective, the exact same weight/value compared to an admin.  It needs to be backed by sound reason/logic for other people to accept it. - 05:18, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I look at this just as a police officer. A police officer does not have unlimited power, but there is still a basic assumption in the system that an officer uses his powers responsibly, and another assumption that for an officer to be effective, he needs to have some authority in the street. Therefore, if an officer tells you that you cannot go into a street at this time, you have to listen to him. Does not matter how much you like the street or how much you think it's your right to go into the street. If you even disagree with his reasoning, you need to listen to him. If you break his order, he has the right to arrest you. Resisting arrest in it-self (even if you are innocent) is a charge. All this power is not so that cops can push people around, but because in order for them to be able to resolve disputes they need to have this kind of authority.
 * Likewise, if an admin steps into a situation and says "Freeze!" then everyone should freeze. Anyone breaking that command risks to destabilize the whole situation. The admin should have the powerto neutralize that person.
 * Now of course, I know that it was Stabber, which actually changes a few things. Having just butted heads with Stabber a few days earlier, I would have actually let him/her have the final word and left a note on your talk page to intervene. I would not have banned Stabber two days after I had a run-in with her/him. In the end, placing the page in that user's space was not the right place. I guess that's what you get for having sockpuppets. --Karlos 05:33, 18 June 2006 (CDT)

Stabber and "sockpuppets"
I have read before and read here again, the claim that Stabber is using other usernames as sockpuppets. In my mind that is a pretty grave accusation, because doing so seriously undermines important concepts of the wiki, like votes or community consensus (where each user counts as one vote, with the assumption that each user is a distinct person). Can someone please post link that are evidence of that claim. --Xeeron 05:52, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I guess you're skimming (or skipping) through the above thread. Here is the relevant evidence: in this image
 * Stabber uploaded this version first. Then quickly uploaded the current one with the quest text wiped out. If you read the quest text, the NPC is talking to Deldda Kcarc.
 * Unless Stabber has access to Deldda's screen shot folder, I think we all know what this means. If you couple this with him leaving, Stabber joining, Stabber leaving, him returning, you get the picture. --Karlos 05:59, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Thx. I did load the second version of the picture only and saw nothing. --Xeeron 06:06, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Pay special attention to the first line of Moleneaux's dialogue in the quest summary. For the record, I will not offer an opinion on this soap opera, just facts as shown from my first sentence. --Gares Redstorm 07:33, 18 June 2006 (CDT)

Ha! Don't say I didn't warn you people. This was the most satisfactory day in all the time I've been reading this wiki. For the record, I believe all the following have been "Stabber": The evidence for all of these is in the history, if anyone cares to look. I also suspect two other usernames of being this person, but I don't have solid proof so I'll leave them out for now. If they start contributing again, I will keep an eye on them.
 * 128.2.206.194 (which is "his" personal computer. "He" also often uses Tor to generate random IPs.)
 * Deldda Kcarc
 * Esan
 * Hank
 * Koyashi
 * Seventy.twenty.x.x
 * Stabber

Anyway, this was fun. Block all of these, including the IP and all Tor exit nodes, and you will greatly lower the risk of future sockpuppetry from this very distrurbed individual. I am sure he will find some other means of getting past the filters, though. -- user formerly known as F G 12:39, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Even if you were right I despise you. Your manner of accusing her without evidence was horrible. Stabber and co didn't cause trouble (ok, people made this into a huge issue now) but instead helped the wiki with their contributions. Besides your style, I despise you for returning after you left the wiki with the great end comment. (Oh, and would you mind giving links to any proof against the other users you mentioned? If you want them blocked, we need evidence.) --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 12:49, 18 June 2006 (CDT)
 * And I'm not even sure if users should be banned for sockpupetry. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 12:50, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Oh well, I am not exactly shooting for love and admiration here. I am just gloating. As regards the evidence, I'll leave it up to the interested parties to do the investigating themselves. A lot of evidence is hidden around November 23, 2005, and in March and April of 2006, if you want to narrow your search. About blocking, let me ask you: why does any sane individual need seven sockpuppet accounts? Granted, some of them such as Hank and Koyashi were one shot wonders, but still... do you seriously think that this sort of person is contributing in good faith, or is valuable? Do you think the huge amount of disruption this user has caused in recent weeks should simply be excused? If there is no blocking policy in place for sockpuppetry, then one should be created. F G 12:57, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * What harm has been done? Stabber was often abrupt with people, and often petty, but these were her only flaws as far as I can find. As far as I'm aware Stabber never used "sockpuppets" to weigh votes in her favour or to create allies in arguments. Please correct me if I'm wrong. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 13:03, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I just went through the history of the IP you gave in your list. It seems that it is Stabber and he/she was trying to hide it. However, no harm has been caused by any of these users you listed as far as I know, if we ignore the delete tags that DK put on several useful articles. The discussion raging on several user pages is not disturbing the wiki as people are still contributing as they would be otherwise. I do think that sockpupetry isn't necessary and pretty bad, but I don't think Stabber did anything wrong with the user names he/she used. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 13:08, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Yeah, well, I did not expect any other response from this wiki. Still, you might be curious to know that Wikipedia blocks Tor IPs and considers any form of covert sockpuppetry a punishable offense, even if it is not used to sway consensus. Stabber might not have done anything severe with his sockpuppets, but you might have noticed that each incident he has been involved in has been progressively worse than the previous one. Where do you draw a line? Take my words as a warning. The next incident this person precipitates, and by all appearances this person has a fair bit of technical knowledge of programming and mediawiki, will be devastating. The wiki is severely understaffed to handle a swarm of bots from a multitude of IPs (Tor has over a thousand exit nodes, and he might have even more IPs at his disposal at his university) vandalizing or DOSing the site. The time to take action is now, not after the incident. F G 13:19, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * From the gamewikis blog, there is this post by this user:
 * Thanks, Phil. GuildWiki appears to be a lot stabler and faster than before, which is a very welcome change.


 * If you have a few moments to kill, can you explain the server architecture gamewikis is using? I am idly curious. Does each wiki get its own database server, or are all wiki databases on a single machine?
 * Tell me, with a straight face, that he is not planning a serious attack. F G 13:31, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Just discovered something very interesting. If you look at the "test wiki" Stabber has linked to before, and do a little poking around DNS with that IP above, you can discover who Stabber is in real life, or at least discover who is in charge of the computers that Stabber used to access GuildWiki. I am now going to send this person an email asking for confirmation. If he isn't Stabber, I am sure he will try to trace who was abusing his computers. If he is Stabber, then we will probably see a more violent reaction. Stay tuned... F G 13:46, 18 June 2006 (CDT)

Well.. maybe i'm being paranoid but I think F G could be another stabber/whatever alias ~_~ &mdash; Skuld  14:33, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * This has been suggested before but not proven. Yet, I am glad to see that, finally, there is starting to be a healthy suspicion about user identities in debates revolving around the Stabber persona. My work here is done -- the followup is in User talk:Stabber. The ball is in "stabber/whatever"'s court. Good day. F G 14:50, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * This is the problem with sockpuppetry. It creates this atmosphere of mistrust in a cyber community. I faced one some 5 years ago on a message board, it was a very troubling encounter. People resort to sockpuppetry, I think, for one of the following reasons:
 * To build fake support for their views.
 * To have an alter ego that can say and do dumb things without tarnishing the image of their "real" persona.
 * Finally, the worst kind, is for the fun of it. This was the guy we had on that message board. He had made 4 (maybe more) personalities and had us folled for over a year. Just for the heck of it. He would start fights with his other personas and watch us take sides and try to resolve the conflict and get a big kick out of it. It was the sickest (and most pointless) thing I ever saw.
 * I don't have much of a problem, as an admin here, with points 1 and 2. They greatly diminish the credibility of the contributor if they are found out, but I don't think they can be used very effectively in a wiki.
 * The big concern I have is 3. It reveals a selfish psychotic mentality that can be very disruptive. When I look at the last sentence Deldda said before he left "I don't wish the wiki well. I wish it the worst." I am VERY troubled by this sentence.
 * Was it that "Stabber" was faking a miserable and frustrated "Deldda" to build support for his argument that Karlos is making people leave? Or was it that "Deldda" was done with acting nice and was planning on doing worse things? The fact that Deldda vandalized the Community Expectations page with frustrated comments is a dangerous indicator to me that it's the latter. The problem with sockpuppetry, though, is that.. I honestly have no clue.
 * For all we know, FG could be Stabber having a really big laugh at getting us pitted with one persona of his against another. It's really lame if you think about it. :( --Karlos 16:07, 18 June 2006 (CDT)

No witchhunts in this wiki
Ok, I think that setting up sockpuppets is something extremely suspicious and runs directly against the wiki spirit, but this kind of witch hunt Template:Sockpuppet has to stop right away. Without clear and obvious proof, that is just an baseless accusation (and to top it off you edited the userpage of several other users). And "I'll leave it up to the interested parties to do the investigating themselves" is not good enough. --Xeeron 15:15, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Rest assured I will provide the evidence if I don't hear back from "stabber" in another day at most. F G 15:18, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Yes, please refrain frm this witch-hunt. We ar enot even sure if, as a wiki, we care to track sockpuppetry to begin with. --Karlos 16:07, 18 June 2006 (CDT)