GuildWiki talk:Style and formatting

Profession Colors
I'm going to try re-openning this discussion at GuildWiki_talk:Style_and_formatting/Profession_Colors --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 19:11, 3 January 2007 (CST)

Introductory text
Fyren told me not to put a section first, and it says here that articles shouldn't be started with a section and that general descriptions should come before any headings, but everywhere I see that rule being broken. I'm confused. - BeXoR   23:05, 31 December 2006 (CST)
 * Okay I'm blind and didn't see the huge discussion above, but that's really old now, and the article wasn't changed to say that headings are okay at the start of an article so why is it still happening? Some of the s&f articles say to have a heading first too. - BeXoR  [[Image:Bexor.png]] 23:07, 31 December 2006 (CST)
 * It's bad formatting but I don't have the motivation to go through articles to fix them. --Fyren 23:35, 31 December 2006 (CST)
 * So if I changed the s&f articles and then started correcting articles that have a heading first that would be cool? - BeXoR  [[Image:Bexor.png]] 23:40, 31 December 2006 (CST)
 * Well, there are a ton of articles like that. I've been wary of trying to do it with a bot (and lazy).  No one else seems to care a whole lot.  Fixing only a few articles/the S&F and leaving most of the articles "incorrect" is kind of iffy and confusing to editors.  --Fyren 23:56, 31 December 2006 (CST)
 * Does that mean it stays the way it is? :S - BeXoR  [[Image:Bexor.png]] 00:07, 1 January 2007 (CST)

This page is 92 kilobytes long
Archive, anyone? -- (talk) 19:10, 3 January 2007 (CST)
 * Done. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 19:19, 3 January 2007 (CST)

Hard mode
How are we handling hard mode? I suggest hard mode subsections for the skill and location sections of monster articles, the walkthrough sections of mission articles and the creatures sections of mission and explorable area articles. -- Gordon Ecker 20:55, 14 April 2007 (CDT)

American English
I recall that somewhere on the Wiki, it is indicated that we should use American English (e.g., armor, rather than armour) in articles. If this is in fact true, and is noted somewhere, can someone please provide me with a link to the guide or article that states this? Thank you.-Ninjatek 09:23, 7 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Misspellings. - B e X or  [[Image:Bexor.png]] 09:27, 7 June 2007 (CDT)

Images
I'm reviving image formatting, feel free to participate in the discussion. -- Gordon Ecker 03:19, 21 June 2007 (CDT)

Builds S&F
can we remove the references to the builds S&F seeing as it no longer exists? Red links and wanted pages ftl&mdash; ♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 15:20, 23 June 2007 (CDT)

This may be a radical idea but
If an enemy has never been observed to drop anything but random drops or the drops associated with its type (i.e., White Mantle gear for White Mantle bosses), is it REALLY necessary to have an items section on that page? You could potentially get every random drop in the game from a certain enemy, but do you necessarily have to list everything that he/she/it actually drops? Silver40596
 * You are only supposed to list items that that only drop from that group, crafting materials, collectible items. Otherwise, yes, alot of things drop from everything or at least everything of the same class (this is not a rule). If a section doesn't have any information, then it should be omitted. Also, sign your comments please. &mdash;♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 21:45, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Is there any way to automatically sign? Silver40596
 * Yes, type ~ four tildes. This includes, a link to your user page, and the date and time. Also, when you reply to someone's comment on a talk page, indent your text by preceding it with a colon and add one extra colon for each indent. &mdash;♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥  21:51, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I just wish that the signature could be automatic...I never remember to sign until it's too late. Silver40596 <-Remembered this time!
 * You get used to it I assure you. Its just like writing a letter to someone. If you don't sign your name, then they won't know who sent the letter. &mdash;♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 01:53, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah...but you can tell from the handwriting or the address... Silver40596 <-Thanks for reminding me

Dropdown boxes script?
Not sure where this goes if not here, a lot of user pages had dropdown character boxes, those seem to have all been converted to just normal boxes with the conversion to Wikia, is there a new script somewhere that allows the creation or restoration of dropdowns? -Link.sea 21:27, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Beast info
is broken for at least Firefox. The "lines" from a header go straight through the monster info box. They do, however, go underneath the image (luckily). Anyone that has an idea how to fix this? --- -- (s)talkpage 17:25, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Force the background of the box to go white. Right now they are unspecified (which makes them transparent). -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 17:39, 3 April 2008 (UTC)


 * So, who's up for an epic spree? Change the template. /selfowned --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]]-- (s)talkpage 17:41, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

What's with the background image?
Hi why the background image - sky clouds? Makes text on some pages hard to read.
 * See here - it's temporary Wintersday decoration, and you can disable it if you wish. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 17:28, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Capturing non-elite skills
Hi folks, I've noticed on the pages of some generally Prophecies Bosses, the Notes section is almost entirely devoted to capturing non-elite skills. Often 2+ copies of the same message with a different skill each time, to me it seems somewhat inflexible and... well, inelegant. With that in mind, I'd like to make a suggestion to change the current format. I feel my version is a small difference which keeps the information, if anything making it more noticeable, and reduces the impact the information has on articles, as I personally feel the notes are getting in the way and are rather large. Please do post any opinions you may have on this, thanx A F K When Needed 17:46, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

What format is best?

 * The idea's good (although it makes me rethink Template:Skillset), but I'd like the text reworded (because it is long, and slightly misleading), and linking to the skill quest is nice, so maybe we could link to the skill trainers? Everyone, feel free to add reworded versions to my version (I don't like my words quite yet), shorter = better. Maybe Quest at Destiny's Gorge and Trainer at Camp Rankor ? -- ◄mendel► 21:30, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Skills Used

 * Unavailable until Destiny's Gorge.
 * Get it here or at Camp Rankor.
 * Unavailable until Marhan's Grotto.
 * My apologies, this has to be a record for this particular page. Now that my exams are over and I've time to root through my Contributions, here I am ><
 * Yeah, that looks good, you said you're making it shorter and that was... what I was trying to do =) So, yeah, taking my idea and improving it certainly works for me. Want me to be the one to go through the bosses my idea originally :P or want to do the honours?
 * I honestly don't mind, I don't want to come up with "things to do" for other people, but I don't want to look like I'm trying to keep all the "glory" or anything :P *shrugs* A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 10:34, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * tbh I am rather fond of the trainer @ X, quest @ Y idea. More information, shorter sentence - works for me =) A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 10:39, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Here's hiding it in the mouseover text of an icon:
 * [[image:Signet_of_Capture.png|16px|Capture it early here or reach skill trainer Steig at Camp Rankor to get it]]
 * [[image:Signet_of_Capture.png|16px|Capture it early here or do the quest The Forgotten Ones at Destiny's Gorge to get it]]
 * It does have the disadvantage of stuff not being clickable. -- ◄mendel► 11:22, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I R Confuzzled
 * What would that achieve? o.O
 * I never planned on removing the information, just tried to make it less inelegant A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 11:42, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Wait... you mean just add the SoC icon if the skill is "capable early", then letting the link to the skill show you where to get it?
 * *starting to cop on* A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 11:43, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The SoC icons is a nice idea, but I wouldn't do it with mouseover text. It would then seem that it is indeed missing from the page, and most people won't bother keeping their mouse over it more than a second. Something that seems better to me is mixing AFK's original layout with the icon. something like this:
 * [[image:Signet_of_Capture.png|16px]] Otherwise unavailable until the quest The Forgotten Ones at Destiny's Gorge.
 * --[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir 11:57, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Now that's being dense *was mousing over the skill's icon for some reason better left unknown*
 * Note to self: Edit next time so you can see it that way. >< A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 12:45, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * tbh I prefer Mendel's method, even if my being dim pointed out it's inherent weakness A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 12:50, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * yay - wasn't being dense
 * after making that edit, the page loaded - minus the SoC icons
 * *glares* what did you do, Mendel? :P A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 12:52, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * You are making Wikia cry, AFK. -- ◄mendel► 13:01, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I figured out why I was having problems: I was trying to cram too much information into this page; information that is duplicated anyway. The information that is important is "Hey, you can get this skill here early"; how to get it otherwise is apparent if you click the skill icon and read the skill page, which you're going to do anyway if you want to decide if it's worth paying for.

So what we should do is add the icon with a generic mouseover text, like so: We can then make a template to read, which will also make the job of whoever converts these notes to the new format a good sight easier (and no, I don't want the glory; I have enough, and enough projects that I don't get around to doing, thank you very much). -- ◄mendel► 13:01, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * [[image:Signet_of_Capture.png|16px|You can get this skill early if you capture it from this boss. See the skill page to find out where it is available otherwise.]]

consensus emerges

 * ...hm...
 * You do the template, I do the bosses
 * What say you? A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 13:18, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Template:Capture early -- ◄mendel► 13:44, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * One thing I would do is use a link= for the signet of capture to point to the skill it's talking about. --JonTheMon 13:46, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I considered that and dismissed it because it is impossible to have the link= and a mouseover text at the same time (it is always the link target), and because there are two links to that skill right beside it (the skill name and icon). -- ◄mendel► 13:52, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Is this pretty much Community consensus, then?
 * and 2) Should we edit the page of the skills? not thinking of anything in particular, just throwing the idea out there A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 14:01, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Wait a day for comments, maybe convert 3 bosses now, if you want consensus.
 * I don't see why you would edit the skill page? -- ◄mendel► 14:19, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Meh. Two days, then I know I'm safe.
 * I dunno, I was thinking about how certain skills mention bosses and whatnot but... yeah, seems grand. A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 14:31, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Is it fine if I don't change the bosses, btw?
 * If people are concerned about such things, they'll see this page in RC and come to it. I don't like changing things to make them different to the "normal" way =/ A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 14:32, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It's fine. Changed your boss test page yet? And maybe point to that on the Community Portal talk? -- ◄mendel► 15:09, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * See the message right before that one, I was asking if it's fine not to bother with an example, as I dislike upsetting the way things are done. I'll use your Template in the example linked to at the start of this section. A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 15:53, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I understood that. :) -- ◄mendel► 18:26, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

consistent elite notes on mission articles etc.?
(Reset indent) I think this is a great idea to unclutter and make the boss pages more consistent. I also like the SoC icon and the less-is-more approach. I say, make it so (well, someone else apparently said that first - you get the idea) I have some further questions about the implementation:
 * Would it make sense to address updating elite/non-elite skill notes in the zone/mish articles at the same time? It's probably too much work to do both clean-ups at once; however, designing them together ensures a consistent approach (esp. with respect to icons, phrasing, appearance).
 * What would a boss with an elite skill look like? Would the article have an SoC icon with the yellow bar? (and a mouse-over that shows whether this is the earliest boss with the skill, perhaps).  &mdash; Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 08:37, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm happy you like the solution we arrived at.
 * I have no idea what kind of notes you refer to, could you link to some example(s)? Since we'd be using a template to add the icon and text, the design (wording) can be made consistent retroactively by editing the template, so we don't need to worry about that - but that's not to say we can't do something about your issue right now anyway!
 * We don't have this info for elite skills at this time, because they are more rare (a large number of bosses would have their elite so marked) and because capturing them from a boss is the best way anyway, because it is the only way (well, besides unlocking + tome). So I don't see why we'd want to introduce a note for that; what AFK is doing here is basically "hiding" the footnotes that were already in place, thereby uncluttering the Notes sections.
 * Editing tip:  creates a nice "reset indent" text. -- ◄mendel► 08:55, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I imagine TEF can I call you TEF? is alluding to how we list Elite Skills available in missions, wondering if our "early skills" will likewise be listed. I can't say for sure, just what I imagine TEF means. If so, a good question indeed. I'd say make a different section directly below the Elite Skills section if we do so at all, however. We are trying to avoid clutter, afterall :P A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 09:36, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * My first wondering (mish/zone skills clutter): compare Undercity to D's Lair to Moladune to Xaquang &mdash; inconsistent look/feel, notes are also somewhat cluttered. not the best (worst?) examples of clutter, I realize → do we want to take time now to design how those pages should display elites generally? (so that any new design meshes with AFK's Boss)


 * My second wondering (boss elites): ah, makes sense – we burn that bridge when we get to it. Works for me.


 * @AFK or do you prefer AFKWN or even A F K : yes, please: TEF is much easier to type.  &mdash; Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 17:39, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * @ u - AFK works for me, thanx A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 18:02, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Well, even if TEF isn't asking... should we have Elite Skills followed by something such as Early Skills, or whatever, on mission pages... or will we leave them as they are? A F K When Needed 18:09, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, precedent is Style and formatting/Missions on one hand and [ the work of Quizzical] on the other hand. Yeah, I can see how earlies could just be added, especially with the signet icon to mark them. I'd wish for 20px skill icons on these notes, too, but that needs more template. Hmm.
 * But these are really two different things: once the earlies have been added to the bosses, a "What links here" on Template:capture early gets us a list of bosses that would need to have earlies added to their zones. But we haven't even gotten AFK's uncluttering project started yet! -- ◄mendel► 19:31, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd say you mucked up the link, but you're Mendel... lol @ idea Mendel phailed @ wiki coding... hm... he must have it like that for some obvious reason...
 * /ponder A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 22:00, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

The informative and slow way
If you want I'll make individual edits instead of the Template. It'll take me longer but, heh, at the size of the project, I'm not all that bothered tbh but it'll be much more useful and informative A F K When Needed 22:03, 2 June 2009 (UTC) Opinions
 * Well, if you write down here what you would like the text to be for a skill quest or a skill trainer, I can adjust the template for that. -- ◄mendel► 23:06, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * tbh I was thinking quest names / skill trainer names and outpost names... basically go back to the start of this discussion, before you made the Template :P A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 09:20, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll start working on the pages tomorrow at around noon (UTC), as I'd like a little more discussion on which would be preferred if that's cool.
 * I have no problem whatsoever doing it on a case by case basis, but... well, what I think is best for the site is very rarely consensus. A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 11:04, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * We don't need to have consensus on "best", consensus on "good" is sufficient; whoever does the actual work gets to decide on "best" :). -- ◄mendel► 14:37, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Template:Skill icon early
I made an informative template at Template:Skill icon early. Simply change  into , and that'll display the SoC icon with "generic" text; it looks the same as discussed above. You can make the mouseover text more detailed by adding the location and trainer or quest info (the extra info adds the potential to use it for automated stuff), see the docs on the template page for details and examples; and of course the messages aren't final, feel free to improve them (the template is not protected yet). Template:Capture early is to be deleted. -- ◄mendel► 14:35, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay then, I'll go for specific info... I'll be starting at (approx.) noon tomorrow
 * And thanx for the Templates A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 15:42, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

GW:EN messes things up... as usual...
Ancient Vaettir + Armor of Mist = Annoying. Until asked to do otherwise, I will ignore such GW:EN bosses because: 1) The Template doesn't tell you to go buy core skills in Kaineng, it sticks to one game and 2) You may own GW:EN but not, for example, Prophecies. A F K When Needed 10:37, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * If you don't own Proph, you cannot cap Proph skills iirc. Even if you can, there's no point, because you cannot use it.
 * It's obtainable in NKP, which is exactly where the To EotN quest is, i.e. it's available from a trainer before the Ancient Vaettir. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  13:17, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) Vipermagi - that's what I just said
 * 2) Elementalist Bosses done Skill Trainers only so far names A --> F inclusive, taking a break now. The project is infinitely more large than I ever gave it credit for. I'd guess that only about 5% of the times I have used the Template already had a note. A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 14:36, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I may have the mesmy skills done, but I'm going through the boss list now to verify. Nwash 14:43, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I spoke too soon. Only through B on the mesmy boss list right now... with the template edit too, I need a break.  Nwash 16:22, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Maybe helpful: putting  on a skill (edit & preview - don't save) gives you a list of bosses that have it, so you can think about which are earliest. :) -- ◄mendel► 17:15, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Or should we do this instead? Otherwise, we're retyping the same information on many boss pages, which may lead to errors and decreased sanity for yours truly.  Besides, this may permit the information to be used in other ways too.  Nwash 19:30, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll continue once we again have consensus on what's going to happen.
 * One thing I will say is, the vast majority (check my contributions if you don't believe me) previously had no such note... which makes this take much longer than you could care to imagine. A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 11:00, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I did check your contributions. I thought I was done after following the Prophecies capture list, and thus thinking I was finished with the mesmy bosses, but then wondered where you were getting info for the Factions and Nightfall ones.  Once I started realizing you were going through the boss categories, I realized how much work needed to be done.  But yeah, we have to strike a good balance between performance and editing concerns, and the original skill templates are used in too many places to pad them any further.  Creating new ones for this purpose is an option, and I already have that option tested in my Sandbox.  (And it could be easily adapted to be more flexible as well, such as setting something up to transclude it in another format like if we wanted to do some sort of quick reference for early caps or something.  My test version can only currently handle the skill icon format because I just wanted to verify the concept worked like I thought it would.)  Nwash 11:30, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * "the information to be used in other ways" -- that's why I changed the template to include the skill name, with how we're doing it now that is very much possible. The info should logically with the bosses, not with the skills. -- ◄mendel► 14:22, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It still chafes me to duplicate the info across pages (especially for core skills), and the database admin/programmer/person-that-has-dealt-with-duplication-issues-before in me says the information we're including on those pages are attributes of the skill. The one-to-many relationship here in terms of the first quest or trainer is skill-&gt;boss.  (Well, actually, up to a four-to-many relationship with three campaigns and an expansion, and even seven-to-many counting major storyline branching [though the three EotN branches may not be relevant], but hopefully you get the idea.)
 * My preference is definitely to centralize and allow the ability to edit once, and conflicting information shouldn't be a problem that way; our process now allows for conflicting information through error, which could be interesting if we find any reason to aggregate the first quest/trainer information in any way. Plus, my assumption in anything this large is that there will be errors, even if this is relatively simple compared to other content additions; info in one place eases the correction of those errors.  I do, however, understand that my approach involves more overhead through template transclusion (since my approach means two or more templates transcluded per boss page as opposed to just one) and the potential creation of a crapton of new templates, so if the performance concern outweighs these benefits, then let's stay with the current approach.  But if maximum usability and avoiding of error are more important, then I still think the first location/trainer/quest belongs most logically with the skill, not the boss.
 * I do admit, though, that as duplication issues go, it could be a lot worse. At least we're only duplicating a few relatively small fields, and your new template toy would help reduce errors from duplication since we can attack the problem by skill rather than by boss.  So, input, thoughts?  Let's make the call, because I'll go either way.  Nwash 15:21, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Naturally I write all this crap before seeing this: User_talk:Nwash/Sandbox/Skill_box_early.  It may have been a tad epic, but I think mendel is convincing me.  Nwash 15:49, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, look at that some more. Anyway, with wikis, having editors be easily able to change information often trumps automating too much; we don't even have a data dictionary for those skill templates, so it's rather hackish as it is. -- ◄mendel► 16:35, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, given that this case is somewhat unusual (relatively small amounts of duplication with a convenient way to check for errors), I can agree that mendel's approach is fine for this situation. I am standing down.  I guess I'll keep my test templates in case the general idea comes in useful somewhere else, though.  Nwash 16:45, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Circular reasoning
From Style and formatting: "Since actual category links appear at the bottom of a page, it is more logical for the category links to be located at the bottom." This sounds an awful lot like circular reasoning to me... I'm guessing that "actual category links" was really meant to refer to the history, related changes, etc. links that are automatically put at the bottom of every page... but what that heck are those called? If there's no official name for them, there has to be some better way of describing them than "actual category links". Tomanak 20:21, May 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * Example: Voice chat. It's in the Glossary and Software categories. Putting them in those cats means putting  on the page. Those category link type things go at the bottom of the article. It has nothing to do with History etc :) --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (contribs)  &emsp;(talk)  20:27, May 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * To put it a bit differently: the "actual category links" are what get displayed on the article itself that indicate the categories it belongs to. The MediaWiki engine places these at the bottom of the page in a gray box - for Voice Chat, it says "Categories: Software | Glossary".  What the #Categorization section is talking about is the wiki-code within the raw article text that generates those category links - this is what Viper demonstrated above.  It's not circular reasoning, it's just something that's difficult to explain efficiently.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 21:22, May 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * Ah, that makes sense... I'm going to take a stab at re-wording it to make it more clear to the un-initiated. Tomanak 00:51, May 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) When the style guide was written, the Monaco wiki skin didn't yet have those links at the bottom of the page (that skin seems to get uglier every time I look at it, I highly recommend setting your skin preference to Monobook if GuildWiki is your main wiki on wikia). The category box is right above that, and right below the article text. In the monobook skin, it really is at the bottom of the page. This is a feature of the wiki software. Since we are used to see the category links below the article text, it helps to also see them in page source below the rest of the text. If the categories were at the top of the page source, the category box would still show up at the bottom. So you see the reasoning isn't really circular. -- ◄mendel► 21:25, May 9, 2010 (UTC)