GuildWiki talk:No personal attacks

Comments
Ahem...can I make a suggestion for the shortcut being GW:GARES ? :P

As before the port, I like the examples. As they do not encompass every type of abuse, they do lay down a wide and useful reference for users. Also, stating that it applies to everyone is always a good thing as well as advice of not taking it personally.

Obviously from reading my personal statement regarding personal attacks, I am for it. In the past week I know of a death threat and a comment towards a user's level of gayness (examples can be provided if you feel like it) and I think making this proposal a policy would reach more users than some statement on a user page.

Some wording and such might have to be tweaked depending on how the majority of the userbase follows it, but thats to be expected. &mdash; Gares 20:48, 13 January 2007 (CST)


 * I fully support this more structured implementation of GW:GARES. --Rainith 21:49, 13 January 2007 (CST)
 * I applaud and completely agree with this effort, and offer thanks for taking this initiative. I'm not much of a word-smith, so as long as the underlying message stays the same I fully support this. One phrase I've never understood from Wikipedia's version of this policy (and in this ported version) is "recurring, non-disruptive personal attacks."  Particularly the "non-disruptive" part... I don't know what's meant by it. Help? Furthermore, shouldn't ANY recurring personal attacks (disruptive or non-) be reported to one of the active admins? --Zampani 23:41, 13 January 2007 (CST)


 * Good point, I removed the "non-disruptive" comment - recurring personal attacks should be reported. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 11:53, 14 January 2007 (CST)


 * Regarding non-disruptive, I think it was referring to situations where a user blanks an article or removes other user's comments and places, " is a ", which is disruptive to the wiki since information was blanked/removed. Non-disruptive is just a statement in a discussion where an user insults another user and nothing is removed, changed, etc. My view on the word, though it doesn't matter whether it's in or not from my perspective. &mdash; Gares 19:32, 15 January 2007 (CST)
 * I see where you're coming from on this - but that meaning isn't obvious to me in the ported version. We could spell it out further to explain that's what is meant, or we could leave out the "non-disruptive" comment.  Either is fine with me. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 20:05, 16 January 2007 (CST)


 * It seems a bit long winded and unnecessarily complex for a policy that basically boils down to "be fair and play nice", but I completely agree with the sentiment behind it. If anybody's counting consider this a vote of support. --NieA7 11:41, 19 January 2007 (CST)


 * I think it can be made shorter, but I am fine with it as it is now. --Karlos 19:04, 26 January 2007 (CST)

I am against this whole policy. Not because I think it should be allowed for users to attack each other, but because it should be common sense not to do so. I would find it very sad if this kind of policy would really be neccessary. Do we really need to tell people to behave? Do we need a policy to back us up if we ban people who don't behave? --84-175 (talk) 15:59, 27 January 2007 (CST)


 * I think if we got rid of the builds section there would be a lot less need for this policy, but I don't think it hurts to have it (the policy). --Rainith 16:08, 27 January 2007 (CST)


 * Steel and strength add weight to any prayer. Like Rainith says, it certainly wouldn't hurt to have this as a policy. Besides, it is nice for argument's sake to be able to reference an official GW:POLICY. For example when people link to GW:1RV, that gives their argument a lot more weight. So, same thing here. Personally I will always use GW:GARES but that's just me.
 * Oh, and besides, they do teach the "Golden Rule" in school. And it's often listed in official rulebooks. Surely that's not bad...? Entropy 00:33, 29 January 2007 (CST)


 * But the Golden Rule isn't written down in any actual rulebook. ;) Of course this polity isn't bad. But it is very sad, from an idealistic point of view (yeah, call me naive, or a dreamer, if you like :p ). However, I won't oppose it's implementation, as I can see that this policy has a lot of supporters. --84-175 (talk) 03:02, 29 January 2007 (CST)


 * At one time, I would've said this policy isn't needed. But, with the build section getting steadilly worse, I regretfully believe the time has come to add this policy, which is why I ported it over from the version at Wikipedia:No personal attacks as a proposed policy for GuildWiki.  --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:42, 30 January 2007 (CST)


 * I give this policy two thumbs up. I'd like to see its implementation soon. &mdash;Tanaric 14:32, 1 February 2007 (CST)

Vague and unkown insults
The article does not exactly state whenther comments like "whoever wrote this is an idoit" when the person making the comment does not known who the auther is are included.--TheDrifter 18:25, 15 January 2007 (CST)
 * ...and? I fail to see your point, unless you were trying to find a loophole to flame people from anon IPs w/o breaking GW:GARES. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|||My Talk]] 18:35, 15 January 2007 (CST)


 * The proposal states "Insulting or disparaging an editor is a personal attack regardless of the manner in which it is done. When in doubt, comment on the article's content without referring to its contributor at all." I believe that would address the type of post you are mentioning. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 18:39, 15 January 2007 (CST)


 * Not just the examples are what constitutes a personal attack. The entire article seems to handle every instance. Since most is straightforward, I don't think there can be a loophole. Most people can tell when they are being attacked. If not, best advice would be to contact an admin and let them be the judge. &mdash; Gares 19:32, 15 January 2007 (CST)


 * Naming the party is not necessary to direct the insult. For example, "whoever wrote this is a moron," is an obvious indicator whom the insult is targeted at. Also generic statements that do not appear to be targeted as a specific person but are insulting none-the-less should be punishable up to the admin's discretion. For example, starting a response with something like: "I swear to God, some of you are just retarded..." is a condescending remark that I personally would not mind banning its author. --Karlos 15:58, 27 January 2007 (CST)

Level of tolerance?
Based on recent incidents, I'm suspecting that we'll have some users who are going to complain about being singled out - and as the policy is currently worded, we'll need to hand out quite a few warnings if we follow this to the letter. Do we want to edit in tolerance limits? If so, what tolerance limits should be set on this? --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 20:18, 16 January 2007 (CST)


 * Personally I think this policy should be implemented with zero tolerance. The penalties can be gradual, starting with a 1 day ban perhaps, but I think a clear message should be sent that the wiki will not tolerate insulting or disrespectful behaviour.  Furthermore, I think any admin who is not demonstrating a positive example of the type of behaviour we want to see on the wiki should be considered for having adminship removed.  I've managed to stay courteous and professional since joining the wiki, despite being involved in disagreements, and it was not very difficult at all.  People who are not able to conduct themselves in that way have no excuse and should not be shown tolerance.  I followed a link to this document from the "Post No Builds" discussion, and personally I think most of the problems relating to the builds section could be better resolved with a "Post No Flames" policy more than a "Post No Builds" policy.  Who cares if some bad builds get favored sometimes, or vice versa?  The only reason this causes a problem is when people allow their ego to get involved, take it personally, and take out their frustration on other users. -- BrianG 10:50, 19 January 2007 (CST)


 * I've never been a fan of zero tolerance policies. Despite what we think, we're all capable of making comments that are taken in ways we don't mean them to be taken. On the other hand, I agree that the guildwiki community shouldn't have to put up with hot-headed folks that would make this a painful place to be. I'd like to see this policy enacted where:
 * 1 warning is typical. If you've had that warning and you continue troubling others, you may face disciplinary action.
 * In cases of a personal attack that is extremely defamatory or severe no warning is necessary.
 * If a person has an representative history of personal attacks, then no warnings is necessary. Prior warnings should be all that was necessary.
 * Note: I don't know what would qualify as an representative history. It would have to be a judgment call based on the frequency and time spent on the wiki. *shrugs*
 * Repeated personal attacks withing a short time span should warrant increasingly strong disciplinary action as BrianG suggested.
 * With a low tolerance policy I believe we could accomplish just as much as with a no-tolerance policy, and have a happier population here. --Zampani 12:55, 19 January 2007 (CST)
 * Yes, you're probably right that "zero tolerance" is perhaps too strongly worded, I've usually not been a fan of those types of policies in other places myself. My main point was that the tolerance level should be a lot closer to zero than it is currently.  I agree with your suggested levels. -- BrianG 13:14, 19 January 2007 (CST)
 * I wasn't going to comment this policy proposal as it seems to be pretty fine as is, but I was asked to on my talk page. What comes to the list of examples, it could possibly be a bit more complete and some of the really specific notes could be a bit more general, but otherwise the proposal is ok.
 * A zero tolerance is usually not good, and I think that we shouldn't be giving out bans for a one time only insult. Like the article says, we should be consider banning only after repeated breaking of the policy. A longer ban if the user has been warned before. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 15:07, 26 January 2007 (CST)
 * When you say the list of examples could be a bit more complete, do you have specific types that you think should be added? Which specific notes do you suggest making more general?  --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 15:18, 26 January 2007 (CST)
 * I'm sorry for this, but it helps to illustrate my point in response to Gem's "I think that we shouldn't be giving out bans for a one time only insult." What if a user's offense was extreme? For example, if the user said, "F you, you mother F'er. You GD N-word. I'll rip your n**** off and feed them to you." I would hope that would not receive a warning because it is a one time only offense. I would not only be dissappointed in the user that said that, but the user that places a warning for that type of behavior. It shows that anyone can say anything they wish, as long as they only say it once. I do not like complete zero tolerance myself, but the punishment should fit the crime.
 * As for the examples, I think there should be careful consideration to how specific something is defined. Even though it would show exactly what isn't allowed, it would offer more loopholes the more specific something is. On the other side, however, making something more general may not get the exact point across, but offers less loopholes. Something to think about if examples are added or changed. &mdash; Gares 16:29, 26 January 2007 (CST)
 * I agree with Gares on this point. There ARE cases where (in my opinion) a user could/should be banned after a single incident. There should be some statement as such in the article indicating that. Something similar to my 2nd bullet above would be detailed enough for any person with common sense, and yet general enough to leave it to admin discretion. --Zampani 17:24, 26 January 2007 (CST)

"Threats of violence, particularly death threats."
Maybe change this to read: ...or something like that - you get the idea.
 * Threats of violence, particularly death threats that may imply or state real life.

I only say this because I see many people saying they could take down others in a 1 on 1 and so on but they mean it in a character to character way. I realize it's common sense to read this as intending that but I know people don't use common sense when looking for a loop hole.--  Vallen Frostweaver  15:19, 26 January 2007 (CST)
 * I think the alternate phrasing "Threats of physical violence, particularly death threats" is a bit cleaner way to clarify that. Or do you think it needs spelled out more than that?  --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 15:21, 26 January 2007 (CST)
 * I'm all for keeping it more general to allow admins the power of interpretation but I was just worried about people arguing they were talking about a character instead or an admin accidentally interprettng it as the opposite way it was intended. How about adding one word then?  "Clear" in the front of the whole sentance like so:
 * "Clear threats of violence, particularly death threats."
 * --[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  15:51, 26 January 2007 (CST)

wording changes
Based on comments above, I modified two section of the proposal today.

In the section "What is considered a personal attack", I modified:
 * Threats of violence, particularly death threats.

to read:
 * Threats of physical violence, particularly death threats.

In the section "Consequences of personal attacks", I added the following two sentences
 * If an administrator believes that a personal attack is severe or disruptive enough to warrant it, a user may also receive disciplinary action on a first offense. Subsequent violations can result in disciplinary action, such as bans, being applied for longer durations.

Let me know if anyone disagrees with these changes. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 18:04, 26 January 2007 (CST)


 * I think these are some positive changes Barek. I might also suggest that "virtual" threats, i.e. "if you post this again i will hack you", should somehow be covered. I'm not sure of the proper wording.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 18:37, 26 January 2007 (CST)
 * Maybe a bullet point adding "Threats to damage or disrupt computer hardware or internet communications"? --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 18:42, 26 January 2007 (CST)


 * Yeah, I think that would make sense.


 * I tried adding something myself under Initial options which said something along the lines of "if you are too angry too respond consider taking a break from the wiki for an hour or two, or contact an admin."


 * What do you think?  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 18:53, 26 January 2007 (CST)


 * I like it, although there's something in the wording that seems slightly off - I just can't figure out exactly what.
 * Then again, I'm a bit distracted at the moment, so mabe it's me that's slightly off ;-P --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 19:09, 26 January 2007 (CST)


 * With regards to the "computer hardware or internet communications" bullet point, I think it may be more appropriate to state "interfere with the usual operation of a user's computer", just to avoid arguments of software vs. hardware vs. network disruptions.


 * Also, I will add in my other comments here to minimize the number of edits. I tend to agree with the suggestion of escalating punishments, but that Admins look at any given incident and react according to the severity of the offense. --[[Image:SmallMapleLeaf.jpg|19px|User:ImbrilShadowfire]] Imbril Shadowfire  19:14, 26 January 2007 (CST)


 * If you really weren't joking Barek, the only issue I have with Biro's comment is that it should read, "if you are too angry to respond..." Unless my grammar has really gone to hell since school, oh so many years ago.  :)  --Rainith 21:37, 26 January 2007 (CST)


 * Actually, I think that's it - I was distracted earlier, so I probably just couldn't focus enough to spot it. I knew that something didn't feel right about it - it was just "too" needing to be "to". --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 22:26, 26 January 2007 (CST)


 * I don't think the change to "Physical" threats is correct. Any threat is unacceptable. If he says he'll get on Guru and smear the guy's reputation on forums, that's unacceptable, if he says, he'll PM him in-game till he dies, that's unacceptable. It's the intimidation factor that matters. --Karlos 00:19, 27 January 2007 (CST)


 * Oh dear, I made a school-boy error there with the "too" thing! I feel so silly. And I agree with Karlos, the change to the wording made sure the policy covered physical threats, and I was trying to include threats to someone's computer, but really it would be enough to say "don't threaten people".  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 05:17, 27 January 2007 (CST)


 * The "physical" part was added due to the nature of PvP based on user:Vallen Frostweaver's suggestion in an above section (although, he suggested different wording).
 * For example: out of context, the statement "I'll slice you up and leave you dead on ground" is clearly a violation - but if put in context of the preceding post from the other person was "Lets meet at our guild hall and see who has the better build", then in context the "slice you up" comment could easilly be acceptable, and possibly even read jokingly. Granted, admins should take context into mind when reviewing posts anyway; but the word "physical" was added specifically to address the type of situation shown in the example.
 * If others feel strongly against it, then we can take it back out and leave it to the admin - I'm fine with either myself. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:42, 30 January 2007 (CST)

Admins
I've been meaning to comment on this for days (I left the You have new message's thing up to remind me!), but nothing really jumped out at me, until now. The only thing I can think to add is do we have to write something about when one or more admins are involved in the personal attacks (as either the attacker or err defender)? Are they just considered to be users in that case? Sorry to be Captain Bringdown 84-175 (the idea that a sysop would be involved, I know, how scandalous and disheartening!) --Xasxas256 07:23, 29 January 2007 (CST)


 * Well, admins/sysops are only people, too (I am enough of an realist to see that). :) --84-175 (talk) 07:30, 29 January 2007 (CST)


 * Heh it's been ages since I've run into you on a talk page, it's good to see that all this discussion about penalties for making death threats hasn't affected your positive outlook! :P --Xasxas256 07:32, 29 January 2007 (CST)


 * It could be mentioned that, if an admin is believed to have attacked someone, the user could make a request for arbitration.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 08:20, 29 January 2007 (CST)


 * Wow, I haven't seen a request for arbitration in ages it seems. 84-175 is dead on right. I've even said that if I attack someone, that I would expect to be reprimanded, and that's a promise. No arbitration for me, give me a warning, then ban, etc. As always, people should know better and it's not like its a slip of the tongue in real life. Here, you have time to type it and read what you are about to say before you allow others to read it. I actually wish I had a preview button in real life from time to time. :P &mdash; Gares 09:28, 29 January 2007 (CST)
 * Same, I say things in RL then realize, oh that sounded oh so wrong. Like one time, I was sucking the juice off my chinese rib sauce covered pork, and my sister told to to stop sucking my meat. &mdash;[[image:Blastedt sig.png]]Blastedt 16:54, 30 January 2007 (CST)
 * I've added some text to address this - not sure if it's in the right sections, let me know what you think. The additions are:
 * In the last paragraph of "What is considered a personal attack?" change:
 * The prohibition against personal attacks applies equally to all contributors. It is as unacceptable to attack a user with a history of foolish or boorish behavior, or even one who has been subject to disciplinary action as it is to attack any other user. GuildWiki encourages a positive online community: people make mistakes, but they are encouraged to learn from them and change their ways. Personal attacks are contrary to this spirit and damaging to the continued growth of the wiki.
 * to be:
 * The prohibition against personal attacks applies equally to all contributors, including admins. It is as unacceptable for anyone to attack a user with a history of foolish or boorish behavior, or even one who has been subject to disciplinary action as it is to attack any other user. GuildWiki encourages a positive online community: people make mistakes, but they are encouraged to learn from them and change their ways. Personal attacks are contrary to this spirit and damaging to the continued growth of the wiki.
 * Does this cover it? --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:57, 30 January 2007 (CST)

Additional changes
Based on suggestions / comments above, I made the following two changes:

In "What is considered a personal attack", I added the following example:
 * Threats to interfere with the usual operation of a user's computer.

In "Initial options", I added the following to the end of the second paragraph:
 * If you are too angry to respond without violating this policy, consider taking a short break from the wiki, or contact an admin.

In its current form, does everyone agree with it being made policy? --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:03, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * Yes. To quote Patrick Henry: "Give me GW:GARES or give me death"! Entropy 16:04, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * Yes. And I'm really enjoying the resurgence of consensus appearing recently. &mdash;Tanaric 16:34, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * Let's propose a few build section policies and see how long it lasts... --NieA7 19:04, 3 February 2007 (CST)


 * It's always easy to get consensus when your proposition is: "Puppies and Ice cream!". Anyways, late to comment, but I wanted to add something anyway just because I supportted this policy in whatever fashion it came out. -- [[Image:Ranger-icon-small.png|25px]]Oblio (talk) 10:42, 6 February 2007 (CST)


 * Looks good to me, no reason not to go with it and see how it flies. --NieA7 19:04, 3 February 2007 (CST)


 * "Let's propose a few build section policies and see how long it lasts..." made me chuckle, I wish I'd seen it earlier :)  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 11:13, 6 February 2007 (CST)

Request Redirect
Could we please have a redirect to here from "GW:GARES"? Please? :) Entropy 12:38, 15 February 2007 (CST)

Gray Areas
Vandilized the P/Mo Angelic Bonder by adding: "THIS IS THE DUMBEST AND WORST BUILD EVER" Defiant Elements 18:51, 23 February 2007 (CST)
 * I didn't view the post at Build talk:P/Mo Angelic Bonder as vandalism, as it was criticizing the build rather than contributors - but it was posted in the wrong section. If you disagree with my interpretation there, let me know and we can discuss.
 * Alright, about the P/Mo Angelic Bonder, I do view it as a violation of GW:NPA for a few reasons. First of all, I think a comment like that goes against the spirit of GW:NPA if not the exact wording. And, I did find a reference in GW:NPA: "Editors should be civil when stating disagreements."  That comment was anything but civil.  Also, while the comment is not about a user it also doesn't actually "comment on content."  Also: "There is no clearly defined rule or standard about what constitutes a personal attack as opposed to constructive discussion."  While there may not be a set standard, there is no way that can be considered constructive discussion, and, while it doesn't say it explicitly, GW:NPA seems to suggest that a personal attack is the opposite of constructive discussion.  Also, despite GW:AFG, this is a repeated offense and the user may have also violated some other rules (i.e. the sock puppet thing).  Defiant Elements 19:32, 23 February 2007 (CST)
 * Yea, I agree, that post falls into a gray area in the NPA policy, which is why I asked for comment - to see your argument for calling it a violation of GW:NPA. I don't fully disagree with your reasoning - but to play devil's advocate for a moment, the exact phrasing was "This is the dumbest and worst build ever".  Not constructive criticism, but also directly targeted at the build itself, so he technically followed the GW:NPA instruction "When in doubt, comment on the article's content without referring to its contributor at all".  As the anon's initially post was in the section "Author's Note" rather than in its own section, that could be argued to be a side jab at the author.
 * Personally, I would like to hear from other GuildWiki users and other admins on this, to get more opinions. Maybe agreement (yea, the over-used word "consensus") can be reached on interpretation in this case.  As I said, this one is gray area to me, so I would appreciate more feedback from others. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 19:47, 23 February 2007 (CST)
 * It's not civil/constructive, but it's not a personal attack. Is this something that people THOUGHT NPA was about? Because I did not. -- [[Image:Ranger-icon-small.png|25px]]Oblio (talk) 15:10, 25 February 2007 (CST)


 * I'm inclined to agree with Oblio, that while this isn't a particularly helpful comment, it's also not a personal attack. I'd say this borders on a category of vandalism though, as a statement made in that manner (unsigned, all caps, non-civil) is generally only for inciting anger, not constructive dialogue. Definitely a gray area so I think your action very appropriate, though I wouldn't have argued against a vandalism revert either. --Zampani 11:18, 26 February 2007 (CST)

I have a question, what did admins do with comments like the above before the NPA was created? What about those that swear profoundly in their statement even if not targetting a person in general? I didn't generally see that on the wiki before so I'm assuming there was some kind of action before NPA was ratified.--  Vallen Frostweaver  07:49, 26 February 2007 (CST)

Hypocracy?
I feel that people have "personally attacked" me in the past, and continue to do so, simply for sport, to challenge what i have to say about G-dub.

I think I respond more directly to them, and although, yes, it is negative, is hitting someone who is physically attacking you, or just pushing you maybe seen as an attack? Maybe, sometimes. But sometimes, not - it is seen as "defense," even though if it were not for the warranting factor it might be seen as an attack.

In the past, I was warned, and I *DO NOT* wish to discuss *MY* actions, but SIMPLY the rules in a *GENERAL SENSE*

I merely am using my experience as examples in a point i am trying to make about the rules as a whole.

I (and i'm sure others) have been banned for *responding* to negative, or disrespectful things other people say. But the ones who said them, ARE breaking the rules too though.

Even if an outside person does not think it is severe enough to ban, or even to warrant them, it seems that it *should be up to the user they are directing their words at,* whether it is disrespectful or not.

Many people do not think calling someone a derogatory (i'll use white since that i'm guessing is what most of us are) term for a white person a cracker, or the equivalent for other "categories" of people IS really derogatory, especially cops say during the time of slavery?

However, does that mean it is not TRULY disrespectful, and ISN'T the effects we are trying to avoid EFFECTS SOLELY ON THE PERSON THE WORDS ARE DIRECTED TO?

So I'd just like to say that people do a lot of disrespectful things esp. in the builds section, and really Do Not Value eachother, or eachother's opinions at all, and yet these actions are looked past, and yet others are not. True, they may be more harsh than the instigator's actions, but so is punching, or semi-peacefully tripping or otherwise disabling someone who pushed you first.

-&quot;J&quot; 02:14, 30 April 2007 (CDT)

Additionally, I have even been warned not to "cite rules" to defend myself (she called it wrongfully accuse someone of breaking them) or else that will result in a ban as well. &quot;J&quot; 02:18, 30 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Simple answer: Two wrongs don't make a right. If you feel someone is "attacking" you, don't respond in kind.  You are in no danger, so self-defense is not needed.  If someone says something to you that you feel is offensive, bring it to an administrator's attention.  --Rainith 03:21, 30 April 2007 (CDT)