User talk:Fyren4632

Old talk stuff.

GuildWiki dump
Just curious&mdash;what are you intending to do with it? &mdash;Tanaric 11:32, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
 * At this rate, nothing. --Fyren 00:26, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

I got your note, I forwarded the information. I'd done so already with the anon notice, but you were more clear. :) &mdash;Tanaric 13:10, 23 August 2006 (CDT)

guildwiki IDE
i use Notepad2. --Honorable Sarah 11:32, 25 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Does it do highlighting for wiki markup? The WP article and the program's site don't say so.  --Fyren 11:38, 25 August 2006 (CDT)
 * not in the default configuration, but it does do bracket highlighing, which you said you were having trouble with, and it can be configured for about a million different highlighting methods. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 11:42, 25 August 2006 (CDT)

If you still have that girls cape, id like to buy it form u. My In Game Name is Ako Fresh, and my other account is Ray The Evil Kid. please send me a whisper sometime.

disambigmsg
i really liked that template the way it was. --Honorable Sarah 04:22, 27 August 2006 (CDT)
 * i changed it back, look at Special:whatlinkshere/Template:DisambigMsg hundreds of includes that all use the old syntax --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 04:24, 27 August 2006 (CDT)
 * I brought it up first two weeks ago on the talk page. MRA created it based off a WP with a different purpose and use.  Barek agreed.  I'm going ahead with the change even though you dissented.  I had already started changing them before you commented here.  Also, since you can't count, 31 (plus MRA's user page) is not "hundreds."  --Fyren 04:29, 27 August 2006 (CDT)

Welcome back
Good to see you active again, I remember all your edits on the builds back then =) --Xeeron
 * I was simply incognito. --Fyren 07:18, 27 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Edit conflict :( Oh well I tried to save you Xeeron! Also you've lost your crown of having the oldest user page with only 1 edit Fyren! --Xasxas256 07:21, 27 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Heh. I lost it a couple days ago anyway.  Three edits now.  --Fyren 07:22, 27 August 2006 (CDT)
 * I managed to dig it up, User talk:Stabber (rather aptly named isn't it!). I can't believe you've made 3 edits now, what happened to you Fyren, you used to be cool!
 * Wb, as they say :) 195.137.4.228 08:06, 27 August 2006 (CDT)
 * It's nice to have most of the old guard assembled again, Fyren. :) &mdash;Tanaric 03:09, 4 September 2006 (CDT)

Skill quick reference
Seems to work well now. I'll do ranger and necro references now. btw: Should the questable skill icon cells width be fixed to something like 10-15 pixels? -- (talk) 06:47, 28 August 2006 (CDT)
 * One more thing. You have some sot of bug in the tempate now. Throw dirt has gold background, although it is not an elite. This is probably because it has elite=no and your code just asks if the elite= is present in the template, not asking if it has =yes or something else. Can you please fix this?

Cost Template
On the Monk armor crafting quick reference if I used your template for the 45AL section it screwed up the table and ended up printing the "rowspan" command. It also has bizare effects on the Headgear sub-page there if I try to use it there - completely warps the whole thing. Biscuits 07:13, 28 August 2006 (CDT)

Minimum time limit on movement of builds
Should be distinct from the number of votes needed. I am already convinced that it is a good feature, convince the others as well, as it can be implemented together with the number needed for a move. --Xeeron 07:41, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
 * I don't care about the number of votes, though. --Fyren 07:42, 30 August 2006 (CDT)

Currently Testing the Viability of…
Hey, could you just take a glance at the above named section on my page and just give me a quick review on my discussion page for each one? Basically this is my personal solution to the lack of comments in the untested section (I agree there should be more, but I'm getting tired of all the arguing about it, people just keep repeating the same things and nothing really gets done/decided). My hope is that by doing this and then asking people for feedback, not votes, I can get the builds perfected before the untested section and save the testers a lot of grief. So far it seems to be working, and I look forward to your help. Thanks in advance.--Azroth 22:33, 8 September 2006 (CDT) PS-Please read the previous discussions for each one as they may answer any questions that you have about the related build. PPS-What are your character names? I only ask because Moo sounds familiar and I might have known you in GW back in proph, or we might have a common Acquaintance.
 * All my character names always have "Fyren" in them. I've intentionally left my character names off the wiki.  I don't really participate in actual build discussion.  I usually only say something to try to save a good build from unfavored.  --Fyren 23:55, 8 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Ok, dang, guess I dont know you. Moo sounded familiar so I thought you might be, or might know, Ascanta (no idea of last name).--Azroth 10:21, 9 September 2006 (CDT)

Skill box qr
Great job fixing it. :) -- (talk) 06:59, 10 September 2006 (CDT)

The PAGENAME thingy
Hey, regarding Talk:Seaguard_Hala, you can use a bot to do the subst? If it isn't too much trouble, I think running the bot through every category in Category:NPCs by type (except Category:Quest NPCs and Category:Mission NPCs) should do it... would it matter if a page gets checked by the bot twice? Also, I'd do it... if teaching me to do it is faster for you. --Ab.Er.Rant (msg Aberrant80) 00:14, 11 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I can do that. It doesn't really matter if it goes over a page twice.  If you know Python there's pywikipediabot or if you know Perl there's the (much more sparse and maybe a little buggy) MediaWiki module on CPAN.  --Fyren 00:17, 11 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Hey, umm... sorry, but the subcategories of the above 2 exceptions are to be included as well: Category:Quest NPCs (Prophecies), Category:Quest NPCs (Factions), Category:Mission NPCs (Prophecies), and Category:Mission NPCs (Factions). --Ab.Er.Rant (msg Aberrant80) 20:32, 11 September 2006 (CDT)
 * And Category:Quest NPCs (special event) too. --Ab.Er.Rant (msg Aberrant80) 22:10, 11 September 2006 (CDT)

Query on my skill trainers edits
Yes, I have checked.

Apperantly, Michiko in Kaneng Center is like Dakk in Ember Light Camp, she teaches all core and factions skills.

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/User_talk:Batchie
 * Are you sure? Last I heard was that the harvest temple one had about 5 skills that michiko didn't &mdash; Skuld 09:49, 12 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Mishiko teach almost all skill but not all, at least, she don't teach Guided Weapon and Nightmare Weapon for ritualist.


 * I've rolled back Batchie's edits, at least for now, because of that inconsistency (Tombo and Yokuni's pages used to say they had, for example, guided weapon but now say "the same as Michiko"). --Fyren 15:47, 12 September 2006 (CDT)

Parser Functions
Thanks for cleaning up the Sysop template Fyren! I completely forgot that you could put a pipe in a parameter to make it optional!  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 06:51, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

To bring to your attention
GuildWiki_talk:Administrators incase you missed it :) &mdash; Skuld 13:38, 13 September 2006 (CDT)


 * As if there weren't enough people trying to edit it at once :P  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 13:46, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

RV
ty i was tryin ta do that, followed a link there and saw some1 had put the date and not the data... when i was done i saw it was for the 14th lol--Midnight08 21:36, 15 September 2006 (CDT)

Re: Category:15k Armor
Saw you having fun with the category that's not a category. There's talk on the problem at Category talk:Slang & Terminology, if you have any ideas on how to access it. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 01:45, 18 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Which makes me pretty dumb since I took part in that conversation. --Fyren 01:48, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

Shocking Flurry
Why exactly did you revert it to a worse version? Instead of reverting, you can correct the text or make a note on the talk page.-Onlyashadow 10:28, 19 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Because it was vetted and someone came along and made a change. So I reverted and made a note on the talk page.  --Fyren 10:34, 19 September 2006 (CDT)

You had put it back past the improved version though.-Onlyashadow 10:45, 19 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Actually, looking at what I did, I managed to not change anything except remove a blank line. I probably clicked on the wrong version to edit.  --Fyren 11:01, 19 September 2006 (CDT)

Guinea pigs wanted! Apply within!
I need people to test out a bit of Javascript I wrote for potential use on the wiki. Anyone with a few minutes can do this. Here's what I want people to do:


 * 1) Go to GuildWiki talk:Sandbox/Build.  You should see an attributes table and skill bar like on any of our build articles.  It should be for a Me/Mo with 16 FC, 12 healing, echo, mending, and six optional slots.  Make sure it looks like it could be from a normal build article.
 * 2) Go to Special:Mypage/monobook.js or Special:Mypage/gamewikis.js, depending on which skin you're using.  If you have the grey gamewikis navbar at the top, you're using the gamewikis skin.  If there's no bar and you've never changed your skin, you're using monobook.
 * 3) Click edit.  Add   to the bottom of the page.  If you haven't messed with your personal Javascript on the wiki before, this page will be blank.
 * 4) Go back to GuildWiki talk:Sandbox/Build.  There should be a link named "toggle" between the attributes table and skill bar now.  If there isn't, check again after trying each of the following till it's there: refreshing the window, clearing your browser cache, and finally restarting your browser.
 * 5) Once you can see the link, click on it.  See if it the skill bar gets replaced by a table that looks similar to a skill quick reference page.
 * 6) Click on "toggle" a few more times to make sure it toggles between the skill bar and QR table properly.
 * 7) Leave a comment here about whether it worked or not.  If at some point what happened and what I said should happen didn't match, say at which point it went wrong. Whether or not it worked, tell me your browser version.  If you're tech savvy, see if your browser complained about the JS in any way.
 * 8) Go back to your .js files and remove the stuff that got substed in (unless you want to play around with it, but don't edit builds.js in my user space and beware that I might break something in the future).

Thanks. --Fyren 17:26, 29 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Success! --Thervold 17:31, 29 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Browser version? --Fyren 17:37, 29 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Works for me on Opera 9.01, Firefox 1.5.0.7 and Explorer 7 beta. Great idea! --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 17:46, 29 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Works for me in IE 6. I can check other browsers after I get home. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 17:50, 29 September 2006 (CDT)


 * That is fucking cool Fyren. You get a star. [[Image:Star-small.png]] <-- for you. Can I snog you? Firefox 1.5.0.7  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 18:24, 29 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Worked for Opera 8.5.
 * That thing is absolutely awesome! --Xeeron 18:37, 29 September 2006 (CDT)


 * We may need a bigger star...  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 18:38, 29 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Works (FF 1.5.0.5 under Linux). one more [[Image:Star-small.png]]. I did get a JS error, but it was located in the google ads, so one less star for them I guess. --Theeth (talk)   19:18, 29 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Works fine (portable Firefox 1.5.0.7, Windows XP). I got a Javascript error:

Error: urchinTracker is not defined Source File: http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki?title=User_talk:Fyren&action=edit&section=17 Line: 34
 * but I'm not savvy enough to say whether that's anything to do with your script or not. --NieA7 19:40, 29 September 2006 (CDT)
 * It's Google's, probably what Theeth mentioned. --Fyren 20:51, 29 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Holy hell fyren you're the man, thats badass..., now how do i get that to work for all the builds?!!!--Midnight08 01:43, 30 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm sure he is working on it. Give him some time. Fyren: How about a mousover skill description like in the game? :P --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 01:45, 30 September 2006 (CDT)
 * That would probably be (at least relative to this) a lot of work. I'd have to do something like Lupin's popups.js.  Basically, I don't like JS so... uh... someone else can try to do it if they want.  --Fyren 10:15, 2 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Works for me. (Opera 9.02) This is great! ^_^ --[[Image:Animate_Flesh_Golem.jpg|25px]] Torins (talk) 01:48, 30 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Works for me, too. Firefox 1.5.0.7.  No errors and no warnings - good job.  ~Seef II [[Image:adrenaline.jpg]] 02:13, 30 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Fx 1.5.0.7, fresh Ubuntu Dapper LTS install, works perfectly, no JavaScript errors. &mdash;&mdash;Tanaric 21:09, 30 September 2006 (CDT)

Ffox 1.0.4, konq 3.4.0 on SuSe 9.3 is fine &mdash; Skuld 11:26, 2 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Works Great! FF 1.5.0.7 --Phoenix [[Image:Phoenix_Benu.png]] 02:09, 9 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Works great FF2.0 Final Sir On The Edge 18:18, 25 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Also on FF2 but no joy here. Tried restarting and hard refreshes etc. --SK [[Image:Warrior-icon-small.png]]  08:33, 30 November 2006 (CST)


 * See below. Refresh again and it'll sort of work now, I guess.  --Fyren 08:34, 30 November 2006 (CST)


 * Now mostly working again, but stuff has changed in the last month and I'm lazy. --Fyren 08:45, 30 November 2006 (CST)

What is needed to implement this?
So, what needs to be done to let all our build pages have awesome toggle skill bars for everyone? --Xeeron 11:08, 2 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm not sure if it's a good idea from a performance standpoint. I don't know if you've experienced the slowness caused by editing Template:Skill box qr, but the Template:Skill box build I use in my Sandbox/Build template would be even worse. The QR template gets used at least twice for every skill (there's about 1.1k skills with Nightfall). But skill box build would get used eight times per build (more, if there are alternate setups in the build article) and as of like a month ago, that would have amounted to 4.4k uses. Clearly, we're just going to keep adding more builds. We can say "well, we'll just try not to edit them," but in the end, we always do end up editing them.
 * If we were to actually implement it, the hard part is switching over the old builds. There's no good way to make the old builds toggleable; they'd have to be switched over to use the new template (though Galil or I can probably use a bot to do it for us). New builds would just use the new template (and the S&F or whatever page would be updated). --Fyren 11:47, 2 October 2006 (CDT)
 * To be honest, I think Fyren's script is cool, but I don't want to see it standard across the wiki. I wouldn't mind adjusting the template to make the JavaScript insertable via user JS pages, but I don't want the wiki to include JavaScript pages by default. New users, editing difficulties, blah blah&mdash;you've heard all the arguments before. &mdash;Tanaric 13:13, 2 October 2006 (CDT)
 * http://gw.gamewikis.org/skins/common/wikibits.js is already a pile of JS everyone gets. --Fyren 13:18, 2 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Is there any way you could implement a AJAX so that the toggled template would only be physically requested if the user clicked the toggle button?  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 14:07, 2 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Not really. There's no page out there we can suck down with the QR view already rendered as HTML.  It could suck down the skill data (from like Template:Flare) and make a new table out of that, essentially making it a client-side template rather than a wiki/server-side template.  Something like that is how a popup like Gem suggested would have to work.  It could be done through an extension, but that doesn't really change how much work is done by the server.  --Fyren 14:15, 2 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Well if you tell me it is to slow, it cant be done. It is not really necessary, would look nice thought. --Xeeron 14:47, 2 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Sorry Fyren, I was imprecise. What I meant was, "I don't particularily want JavaScript embedded into the wikitext of pages across the wiki." &mdash;Tanaric 16:53, 2 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Every table of contents has JS mixed in with the rendered wikitext. If you mean in the wikitext itself, it's not.  --Fyren 17:00, 2 October 2006 (CDT)


 * After some additional poking around in the code, this won't be as bad performance-wise as I thought. Duplicates in the job queue are removed, which I wasn't seeing in the code before (not that anyone cares, but duplicates of a job are removed after a job is popped off the queue, which isn't where I expected... I guess that's what I get for assuming things).  So, if you edit the general skill box, every skill data template and article gets updated (so, about 2.2k articles).  If you edit skill box qr, every QR page gets updated (one for every attribute and profession, plus extras like glyphs and traps, so not a whole lot).  If you edit the hypothetical skill box build, every build page gets updated (we've got about 540 build articles right now).  This makes editing the qr template much less costly than I thought (like by a factor of 1000x, heh) and editing the build template about 8x less costly than I thought.  Still not sure if it's a good idea.  --Fyren 18:08, 2 October 2006 (CDT)

Fyren u rock! This will actually be relatively easy to implement on new builds. Just go to [] and check it(press toggle). Then, seeing that it shows the right stuff, press edit. This is all it takes. If this has already been said, sry. (Edit: DOH! said a while back.)--Frvwfr2(no tilda on my moms laptop.)

i think to begin w/ we should change the style and formating page for builds. --Frvwfr2 20:39, 2 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Read the rest of this section. --Fyren 20:47, 2 October 2006 (CDT)

u mean the stuff 1 post above my first one? i didnt get much of that, lol --Frvwfr2 20:53, 2 October 2006 (CDT)

Althought this is nice is a bit too much work for the one posting the build. There is an extension for GuildWiki(MediaWiki) that adds support for GWBBCode. You can find it here: http://www.gwiki.fr/wiki/index.php?title=Accueil. --Phoenix 03:47, 24 October 2006 (CDT)


 * I'm not sure what this has to do with anything, unless you are suggesting we no longer store builds on the wiki? If so then this is the wrong place to suggest it.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 04:40, 24 October 2006 (CDT)


 * I gues you didn't read either the gwbbcode article or the other link. Then i should specify that thats not what i am saying. This is a prefered alternative on the java script that Fyren sugested. Fyren script would require that you added extra wiki code to each build to make that expansion(if i understand corectlly) in this way that is no longer required because all you have to do is hold your mosuse over the skill icon and the info appears. I suugest you check both the GWBBCode article and the link to the extension that i provided for more info. Also there is a small discussion about both here: http://gwshack.us/forums_small/viewtopic.php?t=310 just in case you don't speak french. --Phoenix [[Image:Phoenix_Benu.png]] 04:59, 24 October 2006 (CDT)
 * You don't, but the MW extension is still interesting work. --Fyren 05:00, 24 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Maybe you'll like to know that GuildWars.com just added a similar GWBBCode version to their website. You can check it out here: http://www.guildwars.com/support/gamecontents/pvpeditions.php just move your mouse over the skill icons. --Phoenix [[Image:Phoenix_Benu.png]] 05:15, 24 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Phoenix, I did read the article GWBBCode which states that "gwBBCode is a add-on for phpBB forums to integrate a way to display game skills and complete Builds." I didn't read the french article properly, but I see that you are suggesting we use a plugin to allow GWBBCode behaviour on the GuildWiki. I'm not 100% sure about this but a post on our forums suggests that the information used in the GWBBCode plugin comes from the GuildWiki. I might have misunderstood this, it's not important though.


 * If a template were implemented as Fyren has suggested, I don't see what the disadvantage of using it would be. The syntax should be the same as we have now, shouldn't it? If this is not the case then I can see some advantage to using GWBBCode, but I would hope that this was not necessary.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 05:50, 24 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I agree. Till a decision is taken by Fyren and the rest here is an example of GWiki.fr using the MW extension: http://www.gwiki.fr/wiki/index.php?title=Aide:GwBBCode . --Phoenix [[Image:Phoenix_Benu.png]] 07:52, 25 October 2006 (CDT)


 * This is a wiki. It's not my decision alone to make.  As I've stated elsewhere, I have no interest in the builds section so I'm not going to argue for or against using this (beyond performance-related issues, as above).  As for extensions, I haven't put any effort into writing anything for us (even if it would help functionality or performance) since I don't want to attempt to provide support without shell (really, root) access.  --Fyren 08:21, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

Whats the status on this? I just wanted to try it, it seems to no longer work (I'm happy to provide more details if indeed it is still supposed to work). DeepSearch 08:46, 28 November 2006 (CST)
 * It's broken now because tidy is turned on and it's removing the empty tag the script uses. --Fyren 09:18, 28 November 2006 (CST)


 * T_____________T See DeepSearch's comment. --Armond Warblade (talk) 22:06, 28 November 2006 (CST)
 * Hm? DeepSearch 22:31, 28 November 2006 (CST)
 * Doesn't work for me either. I wanted to know what the badass stuff was. T_T --Armond Warblade (talk) 23:50, 28 November 2006 (CST)
 * You clicked a link and it switched between the usual skill bar and a QR-list view of the skills.  --Fyren 01:27, 29 November 2006 (CST)
 * Ooh. That's badass. Anything I can do to help get it working again? --Armond Warblade (talk) 09:42, 29 November 2006 (CST)

Searing Heat
Um, no, the link most definitely does not go there. It has absolutely nothing to do with the specific range "in the area", it is part of a longer phrase "in the area of effect", which is nearby for that particular spell. There's even a discussion on the talk page about the wording, and this link serves no function in that place except to mislead the reader. I'll leave it to you to revert your revert. &mdash;Aranth 21:48, 2 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Ah, sorry, the comments are on Talk:Teinai's Heat, not Searing Heat. &mdash;Aranth 21:53, 2 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Apparently I make too many edits to remember all of them. Did you see who said that on the talk page?  Heh.  --Fyren 22:22, 2 October 2006 (CDT)

Flare Page
Please check your facts before editing, I have confirmed that flare has a slightly higher arc then fireball. This is most edivent with enemies that are higher with you when Fireball is blocked and Flare hits. ~ Zero rogue x 21:38, 3 October 2006 (CDT)

Headers
Sorry about that, I just noticed that some unique items had a General header in their description, while some had not. I just wanted to make them more alike.

Splitting God's statue
Hi, you're the first admin I see today, so you have been chosen as my enforcer :) Would you please take a look at talk:God's statue, think about the "split" issue for a second and then go ahead and do it? As I wrote there, everything is prepared to split "God's statue". I'd do it myself, but obviously can't because "statue" already existed. Thanks. RolandOfGilead 20:27, 11 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm not sure what you're asking me to do. If you want the contents of that article to be moved to statue, you don't need me to do it.  --Fyren 20:35, 11 October 2006 (CDT)
 * In principle, true. In practice, there are about 50 articles in "what links here" which would have to be fixed one by one. It's little work for you I presume instead of more work for (for example) me. Does that which I ask of you really take you any longer than, what, 30 seconds? RolandOfGilead 21:03, 11 October 2006 (CDT)
 * The only things an admin can do that normal users can't are block users, protect pages, and delete pages. --Fyren 21:12, 11 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Cool, deleting Statue, then, is the only thing I ask, I'll do the rest. RolandOfGilead 21:18, 11 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Put a delete tag on it if you want. There's some discussion on Talk:Statue which seems to disagree about what to do, so I don't think anyone will be willing to delete anything immediately.  If there was a problem with the statue article redirecting to god's statue like it used to, discuss it there.  --Fyren 21:53, 11 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Note: See Karlos' comment at Talk:God%27s_statue where he contested the proposed use of "Statue" as listed in the split proposal. As nothing contrary to his challenge came out, then either those involved forgot about the conversation, or they accepted his challenge and moved on.  Either way, I think that the use of "Statue" as the primary article is a mistake/premature.  If you disagree with Karlos and feel that "Statue" is correct, then challenge him on it.  Personally, I agree with his logic on that issue. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 23:20, 11 October 2006 (CDT)

Re: ValX/StatY
What exactly were you going to change them to? A single template? If so, we tried that in the spring, it wasn't as flexible as the val/stat templates. - Greven 19:55, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Changing it to what it says on that talk page. I don't know what "a single template" means.  --Fyren 19:57, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I saw that right after I hit enter. But yeah, what PanSola said was what I referred to.. If you change that, it's not really a big deal to change the template I was working on, but thanks for the heads up. - Greven 20:00, 14 October 2006 (CDT)

Unknown punctuation character...
Can you please save Spirit Channeling? --Karlos 19:55, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

Focus Template
It was there because sheild and focus can't use the wame with, Many focus are strech because they are smaller.&mdash; ├ A ratak  ┤  11:01, 25 October 2006 (CDT)
 * There were only five focuses using it and the difference was only 120 versus 160px. All those five look fine at 160, to me.  --Fyren 11:03, 25 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Please look at Divine Symbol. There was a discution with some admin on it too, but I'll have to dig it up.&mdash; ├ A  ratak  ┤  11:07, 25 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Like I said, they all look fine to me. It's scaled up a little, but the solution is a new screenshot, not a new template, if it bothers you.  --Fyren 11:08, 25 October 2006 (CDT)

LF Bot
GuildWiki talk:Community Portal - 11:49, 25 October 2006 (CDT)
 * hehe - PanSola got the the post before me. So ... what are the chances of getting Fyrenbot to move all builds into the "Build:" namespace?  Would the bot also be able to help fix links to the build articles, or will those need to be done manually? --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 11:55, 25 October 2006 (CDT)


 * What Barek wants to know is when can we let the machines take over and all retire?  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 15:06, 25 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Yes, I wholeheartedly support our future benevolent machine overlords. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 15:09, 25 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Our Benevolent machine overlords still havent figured out the differance between A-Nets scales and Wiki Scales (Impale was updated by fyrenbot to scale to the new updates... but put the max @ 12 when the 100 damage max is @ 15, tested last night)--Midnight08 07:49, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Two things: my bot has not done anything since before the update and it only worked with the data already in the articles. --Fyren 07:52, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

yep, see that now, changes from bot were on the 19th... musta been an undocced change because of the update. Well I dont know who can fix that but the info's there for ya, i'll also post it on skulds page when i get home if it hasnt been fixed yet. --Midnight08 07:56, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Found it, Fixed it. Hmmmmm wierd, doesnt anet usually list skills in a 1:12 range as opposed to 1:15? cause this update listed it as 25-100 but 100 was @ 15 last night...--Midnight08 08:03, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
 * No. Patch notes show 0...15.  --Fyren 08:08, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
 * ahh kk ty, good ta know. whoever changed it 1st set it as if it read 0...12, i fixed tho. Thx for the info and also for removing that bold line from teh quick chain referance, that was annoyin me, couldnt get the format right lol --Midnight08 10:43, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

Resurrect (Action)
Thanks for pointing out that distinction to me. I was just following an example I have previously seen. Glad you took the time to let me know the correct format. Frostty1 12:34, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

healers boon.
you said in the disscussion of healers boon that you knew where the boss for this was.could you be more spesific plz. I REALLY want this.(Addition) nvr mind found it on the fully explored map of elona that came with collecters edition

This better not be from localhost
I will cry if it is. --127.0.0.1 02:21, 4 November 2006 (CST)
 * Damn it! --Fyren 02:22, 4 November 2006 (CST)
 * Test two. --68.142.14.31 02:27, 4 November 2006 (CST)

o.O &mdash; Skuld 02:22, 4 November 2006 (CST)

E-mail test. --Fyren 17:32, 16 November 2006 (CST)
 * Part two. --68.142.14.28 17:34, 16 November 2006 (CST)
 * Again. --68.142.14.28 09:24, 20 November 2006 (CST)
 * From postfix? --68.142.14.28 22:59, 20 November 2006 (CST)
 * Hate sendmail. Viewing my page between edits might help, too. --68.142.14.28 23:29, 20 November 2006 (CST)
 * Colons colons colons. --68.142.14.28 23:33, 20 November 2006 (CST)

thx
Heh. Thanks for the welcome. --Mont 05:04, 16 November 2006 (CST)

Talk pages for your review
Hi there! Good job on the server; but in the typical "your work is never done" mentality, I was wondering if you could comment on two posts: Thanks! --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 17:37, 16 November 2006 (CST)
 * GuildWiki_talk:Community_Portal
 * MediaWiki_talk:Sitenotice

GuildWiki:Administrators
Hey Fyren, you might want to update Administrators, moving yourself from "Wiki Administrators" to "Server Administrators". I'd do it, but I think you better describe your new role yourself. -- 05:39, 17 November 2006 (CST)

Build bot
I'm not really sure about this. Can you link me to the place where it was talked about changing the naming convention for builds to include "Build:" at the beginning of all of them? Because as or right now, it's completely dis-organizing all the build categories. Their alphabetic order is completely done away with and you can no longer sort by profession by clicking "W" for warrior builds or "N" for necro builds, etc. I mean if this is what you guys want, that's fine and I really like the idea, but surely there must be some type of work-around to make it possible to list these by primary professions. — Jyro X 08:22, 17 November 2006 (CST)
 * The templates that categorize need to be fixed. See what I said on the community portal talk.  --Fyren 08:27, 17 November 2006 (CST)

My Appologize
i am truely sry i didn't know

thank you for telling me tho

A difficult idea...
I was wandering around the wiki the other day when I thought something... There's a lot of redirect pages in the wiki, and a lot more pages link to the redirect page instead of the main article. This is useful for when you don't know the name of the main article off the top of your head, but can be frustrating for dialup users or users with slow computers.

Is there any way you could get Fyrenbot to go through the whole wiki (yes, the WHOLE wiki) and change any links to redirect pages to the proper page? I know it would probably take a few days, but can you do it? I'm only asking you because I know you have a bot that works well and I don't even know how to program one (although I could probably figure it out if this is too big a project for you personally). --Armond Warblade (talk) 16:28, 19 November 2006 (CST)


 * Last edit before I get some sleep, do redirects (when you click on them) add anything more to the bandwidth for the end user beyond that small line of text at the top of the page telling them they were redirected to page X? --Rainith 16:35, 19 November 2006 (CST)


 * In short, no, they don't. Redirects are a very minimal overhead and in some situations can save bandwidth. There is a discussion at GuildWiki_talk:Redirect that covers a number of points.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 17:47, 19 November 2006 (CST)


 * And as for having Fyrenbot go and change all links to redirects to links to the actual article, that would be fine by me. I'm sure there is a way that you can get a list of "links to redirects" from MediaWiki somehow, but I can't remember how! Of course, I don't think that the redirects shouldn't be removed once the link is altered.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 17:49, 19 November 2006 (CST)


 * I take it back, "Some editors are under the mistaken impression that fixing [links to redirects] improves the capacity of the Wikipedia servers. Because editing a page is seemingly thousands of times more expensive for the servers than following a redirect, the opposite is true if anything." &mdash; makes sense! Taken from Wikipedia:Redirect.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 17:52, 19 November 2006 (CST)


 * Makes much sense. I overestimated bandwidth created by redirect pages. --Armond Warblade (talk) 18:00, 19 November 2006 (CST)

Progression tables
The following skills have no progression tables, and seeing as you were the one that had Fyrenbot make the tables in the first place, maybe you could help here :P


 * Arcing Shot (It's 1...22, I believe, with 25 at r15, if that helps... I have no ranger to tell the rest >.<)
 * Augury of Death
 * Assassin's Remedy

Will add more as I find them. And if this is an obvious thing that I should know how to do, let me know and I'll instead put this on my own to-do list. --Armond Warblade (talk) 18:02, 19 November 2006 (CST)
 * Take a look at the source for a template that does have progression values, like Template:Symbiosis. It should be easy to figure out.  My bot didn't create any of the data, it just moved it from the articles, where it used to reside.  --Fyren 18:44, 19 November 2006 (CST)


 * Ooh, fun. Thanks, I'll get on that. --Armond Warblade (talk) 00:35, 20 November 2006 (CST)

Thanks
Thanks mate. --Xasxas256 04:37, 21 November 2006 (CST)

Email links
Meant to drop you a line about this a long time ago, but what with college and stuff, never had a chance. When I click a link in my email to view a history diff, depending on the link it gives me an error saying the page that I'm looking for the diff for doesn't exist. This is caused by dropping bits of the URL between the link I can read in my email and the URL I read at the top when I click it. Common drops are:


 * %28 and %29 (so Vizuna_Square%28Mission%29 becomes Vizuna_SquareMission )
 * %22 (for quote marks, such as in "Stand Your Ground!")
 * Whatever the coding for an exclamation point is becomes an actual exclamation point in the URL (again with SYG, it becomes Stand_Your_Ground!)

Obviously we can't really make redirects out of these "false pages" since every time the page is updated, so is the URL that I need to go to to view the changes since my latest visit.

I've been copying and pasting the URLs over, but it's really getting annoying. Is this something that guildwiki can fix without moving every page like that to another bug-free page, or is this just a bug between IE6 and Firefox 2.0? (Upgrading to IE7 is out of the question, btw - my mom needs IE6 on this comp for her work stuffs.)

Thanks in advance. --Armond Warblade (talk) 09:49, 29 November 2006 (CST)


 * The wiki sends plain text mails. If you get clickable links, it's your client doing it.  If the links are missing parts of the URL, get a better client.  --Fyren 01:03, 30 November 2006 (CST)

NavFrame
I like this. Can we have it on GuildWiki too? Pretty pleeeeaaaase, with a cherry on top! :) -- 08:54, 30 November 2006 (CST)
 * Any admin can edit the pages necessary to do that (maybe you should have accepted adminship, heh). --Fyren 08:59, 30 November 2006 (CST)
 * Yeah, maybe I should. :/ The last time I declined because of real life reasons, but those are out of the way now. I think I'm here to stay for at least another 6 months or so, and while I don't like to get involved with the e-drama side of adminship, I could at least help with the tech side, maintenance and take care of vandals while the Americans are asleep. Hmmm ... --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 09:10, 30 November 2006 (CST)

That failed. Sandbox. I suck :p &mdash; Skuld 10:05, 30 November 2006 (CST)
 * You copied the wrong JS from WP. --Fyren 10:08, 30 November 2006 (CST)


 * Works, nice :) &mdash; Skuld 10:12, 30 November 2006 (CST)


 * I am soooooo gonna make use of this. Prepare for some serious NavFrame spamming. :) --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 10:20, 30 November 2006 (CST)


 * Don't make anything huge. Users without JS enabled will get fully-expanded stuff.  Also, it's only in monobook's JS/CSS right now.  --Fyren 10:28, 30 November 2006 (CST)


 * I won't make anything bigger than it already is. Quite the opposite: I'll apply it where I think something is too big as it is now, so users with JS can collapse it. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 10:32, 30 November 2006 (CST)

All your fault..
Take that! They nerfed the Paragon holding scheme. All because of you. So, there. :P --Karlos 13:45, 1 December 2006 (CST)

Hey
Hey i was wondering if i could discuss A block on my ip adress? Lol I tried to edit something today and it says my ip address has been blocked for changing pages to say poop...And well i just learned how to edit today >.<Hinata hyuuga 00:11, 2 December 2006 (CST)
 * There were a bunch of IPs blocked because they were for AOL proxies and someone was vandalizing pages. Although I've unblocked them (and you were able to edit/register because you happened to get an IP that wasn't blocked), in the future all of AOLs proxies might be permanently banned from editing.  I don't know if you're using AOL's built-in browser, but using an external browser might bypass their proxy.  --Fyren 00:34, 2 December 2006 (CST)

Kk thx now i can editHinata hyuuga 00:50, 2 December 2006 (CST)

Reversal of Damage
You need to actually test this skill properly before you say it works the exact same way reversal of fortune and mop work... =|

It will infact negate ALL damage taken from a single hit to your character, if you go to a place with a foe that will always deal high damage (aka the Isle of the Nameless) take off all of your armor, and let the foe attack you or cast a high damage spell, this enchantment will remove all of the damage. Then only deal the maximum damage that Reversal of Damage can at whatever level smiting you have. Try it with level zero smiting, and have it only 'reverse' 5 damage, it will still reduce the damage your character takes to zero, while only dealing the 5 damage back at the foe.

Unlike Reversal of Fortune, it will not trigger when the damage comes from a non-targettable enemy, which includes things like the Obelisks near flag stands, environment effects, or degen of any kind. Reversal of fortune will still trigger when you take damage from something such as an Obelisk though, and only reverse as much as it can heal. Similar name, similar function, but in reality they work a little differently.

--Theotherandrew 21:51, 2 December 2006 (CST)


 * I tested it against a catapult, so if you're sure you're correct about it not working versus "non-foe" damage, readd it. --Fyren 01:29, 3 December 2006 (CST)


 * I'm guessing that it won't work against non-foes because the coding is designed to first check to see if it can deal damage back before negating, whereas RoF and MoP prevent damage first without checking if it goes over the max. Small tidbit of info. (They could probably change that quite easily, actually...) --Armond Warblade (talk) 18:59, 3 December 2006 (CST)

Broken images at www.guildwiki.org
Hi, I noticed today that www.guildwiki.org stopped redirecting to gw.gamewikis.org, and for whatever the reason, the images won't show on the page (hotlink prevention?) My firefox won't load things (e.g. ) and neither will the IE for Cracko (User_talk:Cracko). Was there any change with the www. address or are there ghosts in the machine? :D (guildwiki.org still redirects) &mdash; Skuld 15:37, 5 December 2006 (CST)
 * Try now. --Fyren 15:58, 5 December 2006 (CST)
 * Works like a charm :) - Cracko 16:01, 5 December 2006 (CST)

boss cap skills
are we still listing the type of boss like (plant) next to the name of the boss on a elite skill page? It seems kinda useless. As all they have to do is click the boss guy and they get all that info anyway. Xeon 05:51, 6 December 2006 (CST)
 * On a skill page there should be nothing more than the boss name and zone. No notes about species or "only spawns during X quest."  That's all for the boss's page, not the skill page.  --Fyren 05:52, 6 December 2006 (CST)
 * thought so, i dont agree with the only spawns one though, i think it should be added because when i go capping i like to know if i need to even bother open the boss page but whatever. Xeon 05:56, 6 December 2006 (CST)
 * Most people are going to open the boss page to get a map anyway. --Fyren 05:56, 6 December 2006 (CST)
 * Hmmm ... then why do we even add the boss location on the skill page? If we omit the quest info, we might as well omit the location too. It's all on the boss page, just one click away. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 06:49, 15 January 2007 (CST)
 * I wouldn't be opposed to it. But, at least, a user can see if they know the zone name.  If they don't, they can probably not bother checking the boss/trainer article.  If they do, then they can find out exactly where to go.  --Fyren 17:50, 15 January 2007 (CST)

Your Edits/Deletions
I'm certain that your TONS of edits/contributions per small unit time are useful and appreciated, but I think that some of them are unnecessary - including a couple of my contributions that you've deleted. Please remember that the Wiki acts as a guide for everyone, not JUST for 24/7 pros, and that what you consider obvious may not be obvious to another, less experienced player. Please consider REVISING contributions rather than deleting them out entirely, or at least discussing an element that you think should be deleted. Like most wiki contributors, I don't not mind my work being edited down, simplified, rephrased, or otherwise enhanced, but I do mind having deleted entirely - especially when it's viable, correct, resourceful, and accurate information. Ninjatek 08:08, 6 December 2006 (CST)Ninjatek
 * For your edit on rage of the ntouka, the second note is blindingly obvious. It does not take a "24/7 pro" to realize a skill that gives you adrenaline is good for getting adrenaline.  For the first, it's overly specific for a note.  Add it somewhere in run if you want.  For rush, the same applies but moreso because there are already several notes.  People constantly add notes and some get deleted, some get rephrased, some get merged into existing notes to keep the length down.
 * If you have a problem with edits, it's usually better to take it up on the talk page of article(s) so more people will see the discussion. --Fyren 08:40, 6 December 2006 (CST)
 * Your user page says to type here if I wish to contact you. Again, please realize that what is blindingly obvious to you, may not be to others.  Some players may not be aware of the advantages of suddenly gaining 6 strikes of adrenaline.  Some players may not even understand the idea of "strikes" of adrenaline.  My comments and notes were accurate, well composed, fair, and intelligent.  Additionally, on Rage of the Ntouka, I noted that Rush could be kept up indefinitely, without stacking energy usage, and suggested it as a possible alternative to Charge! and Sprint.  This was an excellent "Note" for the skill, which may require a bit of editing back or simplifying or that may, in fact, be useful noted somewhere else as well - but by no means should you have deleted it entirely, especially with no discussion notes!  The effect of that is that I now have had to track you down and interrogate you over the whole matter.  Leave Notes!  Recall that regardless of how many edits and contributions you have, input by everyone is equally valuable.  Please treat it as such, and let's not delete information hastily.  I'm sure you would be put out by someone entirely wiping out your work with no notes or provided explanation.  Thanks. Ninjatek 15:12, 6 December 2006 (CST)Ninjatek
 * I saw the talk and looked at this as well. I agree with Fyren's edits.
 * On Rage of the Ntouka, the skill description is "Gain 1...6 strike(s) of adrenaline. For 10 seconds, whenever you use an adrenaline Skill, that Skill recharges for 5 seconds." Your note of "This skill can be used to initiate an adrenaline-based opening attack, such as bleeding or a hammer knockdown, that would otherwise not be possible. It can also be used to quickly charge powerful spike attacks like Final Thrust." is entirely redundant.  If a user can't understand that gaining adrenaline will allow them to use adrenaline skills, then they should focus more on the basic game mechanics or even one of the getting started articles (all of which are linked in the upper right of the Main Page).
 * The note on combining with Rush really does belong on a running-type article, rather than specific in the skills. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 15:36, 6 December 2006 (CST)


 * A shorter version of what I said above I provided in the edit summaries for the edits where I removed your notes.
 * As for obviousness, it's obvious to anyone but someone completely new that doesn't know anything about adrenaline. If someone viewing a skill article doesn't understand adrenaline, that's too bad.  They need to read adrenaline or maybe effective warrior guide, not have notes dumbed down to their level.  At some point it is dumbing down; and it's not something that reflects poorly on the person that needs it.  We cannot write every page in a manner that accomodates both ends of the spectrum.  That would end up with even the people in the middle displeased by having them go through so much content that they don't want or might take as condescending.  So we aim almost all articles at the middle and try to make information useful for new players easy to get to through the Main Page.
 * For the running note, accuracy, quality of composition, fairness, and intelligence have nothing to do with it. Like I said before, maybe put it in run.  The issue is relevancy.  Wanting to keep up rush all the time (presumably in a situation where you're not attacking and it would be trivial anyway) is only going to matter to runners.  It is too specific for the skill articles.
 * You can contact me here, but your problem wasn't with me so much as my edits. If this were some overarching problem with many of my edits, it would be appropriate, but you haven't indicated that.  From my edit summaries, which I can understand if you didn't pay attention to if you're new to wikis, it's clear we simply disagree about the articles' contents.  That makes it more relevant to those pages than me, and as I said, makes it more likely people will see it and give their opinions.  --Fyren 16:03, 6 December 2006 (CST)
 * I disagree, in part, with both of you on the matter - but I thank you both for your time. Regarding the skill description for Rush (and yes, I will go back to the discussion page for Rush and make these points) - why not mention that it can be kept up indefinitely with Rage of the Ntouka?  That is a worthy note for that skill.  A player looking up Rush could benefit from that note.  Perhaps a player would like to maintain rush in PVE, rather than just for the purpose of running.  By excluding that type of comment, you entirely undermine the concept of a Notes section; it's not a matter of dumbing down the notes.  And part of my disagreement is, in fact, with you Fyren.  It's my understanding that administrators administrate users, not content.  Regarding my content, when an admin comes through and broadly deletes sections which may or may not be relevent according to community consensus, I question the neutrality of that action.  Additionally, I find it mildly offensive that you would introduce the issue of whether or not I'm "new," or whether or not I'm "paying attention."  That sounds like a euphemism for "stupid noob."  I am disappointed. Ninjatek 16:44, 6 December 2006 (CST)Ninjatek
 * Fyren did not use his admin abilities to remove the edits. While he has an admin tool for a one-click revert of an edit, he instead used the manual process where he inserted an edit summary.  He acted very much as a regular user, as any user could have done the same.
 * As for the disagreement in question - he was within GW:1RV in his edit. Your statement about community consesus aplies both ways - you should not assume that you automatically have it anymore than Fyren should.
 * I viewed his comments about newness to the wiki as being an attempt to help you in identifying where his note was located, and to me was not condescending. I can't speek for Fyren, but I can say that I'm sorry if you read it as such. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 17:14, 6 December 2006 (CST)


 * I was about to say as well, Fyren is a contributor and a sysop.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 17:18, 6 December 2006 (CST)

Explorable Areas
I'd like your opinion for a S&F template I created for Explorable Areas. Thanks. &mdash; Gares 15:37, 6 December 2006 (CST)

HotLink Protection
Please see http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/GuildWiki_talk:Interactive_map_project#Boss_location_mockup

Thanks man, ErkDog 12:08, 7 December 2006 (CST)

Search defaults
For the search, it currently defaults to only look in the main namespace. Is it possible to get it to default to both main and build namespace (especially relevent for logged out users)? I saw a comment about this a while ago, and the posts at User talk:Scottie theNerd reminded me about this again. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 18:27, 7 December 2006 (CST)
 * I changed it when I told him. Existing users need to change their preferences themselves.  --Fyren 18:28, 7 December 2006 (CST)
 * Alright, that works. That should save a lot of effort for users. --Scottie theNerd 18:34, 7 December 2006 (CST)

Skill Templates
When you get a chance do you want to take a look over User_talk:Xeon? Just seems an odd way to do it but I'll defer to you on these kind of template/performance issues. --Xasxas256 05:01, 12 December 2006 (CST)

NavFrame to the GWiki default skin?
Would it be possible to install the NavFrame stuff to the default skin too? A user just asked me on my talk page why it wont work for him even if it works in wikipedia. It's actually a bit weird that it only works with the old default skin (MonoBook), but not with the new one, as new users probably wont change to the old default skin and thus wont have the NavFrame stuff working. -- (talk) 16:08, 12 December 2006 (CST)
 * Ask Skuld or Tetris why they only put it in monobook's JS. --Fyren 16:15, 12 December 2006 (CST)
 * Would the correct ones to add it in be GameWikis.css and GameWikis.js? If so, I'll go ahead and add it in (actually, I'll try it now - can just be deleted if wrong). --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:18, 12 December 2006 (CST)
 * Okay, either those are the wrong addresses, or I missed something - so deleting the pages to revert back. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:30, 12 December 2006 (CST)


 * I searched Skulds contribs. See this page, November 30th. He made edits to Common.js, Common.css, MonoBook.js and MonoBook.css. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 16:42, 12 December 2006 (CST)
 * Checked them. He actually did not make anything to Common.js and reverted the Common.css edit. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 16:44, 12 December 2006 (CST)
 * In my test, I had created MediaWiki:GameWikis.js and MediaWiki:GameWikis.css as duplicates of MediaWiki:Monobook.js and MediaWiki:Monobook.css. As that didn't work, either there's some tweaking needed in the code for each skin that I missed, or those aren't the correct .js and .css to modify to add it to the default skin. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:50, 12 December 2006 (CST)
 * All lowercase. CSS/JS is aggressively cached (relatively), so it might require browser caches to be cleared.  --Fyren 16:53, 12 December 2006 (CST)
 * That seems to work - thanks! --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:56, 12 December 2006 (CST)

Vax on, vax off
Hey Fyren,

It's been a while since I dropped by GuildWiki (I spend my wikitime on HammerWiki these days), so I only just noticed Gravewit made you a server admin. And with a new server to boot. What a trip. GuildWiki hasn't run this well since the old days.

What that means is that the suggestion I am about to make, is really quite reduntant since things are working fine. However, I did make the same suggestion when things were going bad, I still think it has merit and, oh, I'm really, really curious to know how well it'll work.

Enough beating around the bush: I suggest you (and Grave) have a good hard look at Varnish, the http-cache. http://www.varnish-cache.org/ Basically, Varnish is a reverse-cache -- like you might use Squid for -- only it's faster by about an order of magnitude. The really interesting bit is not whether or not it will perform better than Squid (that's a given), the interesting bit is how cacheable wiki-data really is -- and that's the bit I'm most curious about.

If I recall correctly, I think it turns out that a very large percentage of traffic to most wikis is actually from non-logged-in users, and that segment of traffic should be really cacheable. So even if we were to assume that logged-in users will never have cache-hits (an unlikely event), I think there's much performance to gain from that alone. The only real question is how possible it is to propagate page edits to the proxies, but I'm sure mediawiki provides handles for exactly that purpose.

Additionally, Varnish-caches could, conceivably, scale to infinity using trusted, volounteer-provided server-horse-power in a DNS round-robin... or even more elegantly by dispersing locale-specific DNS entries, which would not only provide all the benefits of the previous suggestion but also even faster response times than would be physically possible with a single POP.

Anyway, enough of my ramblings. Check it out if you have a little free time. And be sure to listen to the Podcast in which PHK (the main developer) explains the concept. --Bishop 16:24, 12 December 2006 (CST)


 * Hi Bishop! I have nothing else to add.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 16:43, 12 December 2006 (CST)


 * Making squid an order of magnitude faster won't be any help. The bottleneck is apache/PHP/MW even running on the new server.  In comparison, squid is instantaneous.  (Logged in users will only get cache hits for non-images when they return to a page they already visited, pretty much, because pages are served with vary: cookie.) --Fyren 16:50, 12 December 2006 (CST)

Battle Rage revert
The revert was uncalled for, as the dot point I placed in favour of the two dot points was far more relevant due to the September 20th update (prelude to Nightfall Preview Weekend) which 'Capped adrenaline gain so that no player ever receives more than double adrenaline from adrenaline-boosting skills.' That was why I replaced them with 'Be aware that this skill maxes out adrenaline gain via attacks. It is pointless to combine this skill with other skills that provide percentile adrenaline gains if the only way you can gain adrenaline is through attacks.' In conclusion:
 * Battle Rage and "For Great Justice!" do not stack for attacks made by you (which was the point I made) and
 * Battle Rage is pointless to use for adrenaline gain in conjunction with Infuriating Heat (since both already hit the cap). 220.233.103.77 18:46, 13 December 2006 (CST)


 * Look at the talk page. --Fyren 19:24, 13 December 2006 (CST)
 * As they stack, you should revert "For Great Justice!" notes too Deadjack 20:26, 13 December 2006 (CST)
 * Hey Fyren. Thanks again for your help on the damage page.  I have another question related to this right here.  I've been poking around the adrenaline skills.  Focused Anger is written as a "percentile" increase and on that skills talk page and in guru forums people have claimed it is subject to the 2x cap.  I saw that skills such as Battle Rage and Infuriating Heat both do stack however, going far beyond the cap apparently.  Now, the testers on Foc Anger could be wrong, or it could have been fixed (testing I saw was done around 20th of December, 2006), but maybe its capping (if it still is) has somthing to do with another mechanic.  Maybe there is a percentile increase cap, and skills increasing in this way are capped.  Then other skills that "double" or "gain twice as fast", the adrenaline gain, and this is added to the adren formula as an add on increase.  Both the skills that you pointed out as stacking beyond the cap are written not with percentile increases but "double" or "gain twice as fast".  Foc Anger is written as percentile and appears to be restricted by the cap.  Maybe a skill like Infurating Heat isn't changing the formula, but just causing two of them to be run and added to the total on each hit instead of one, or somthing; thus not subjecting it to the cap.  Any thoughts?--[[image:Windjammer Icon1.jpg|12px]] Windjammer 13:39, 14 January 2007 (CST)
 * Skill descriptions have clearly been filtered through someone between the devs and us players. I wouldn't trust any of them further than I could verify through testing in game or try to draw a distinction based on wording such as whether an increase is listed as a percentage or otherwise.  So, I'd only test combinations and see what happens.  I would assume that battle rage stacking with infuriating is a bug (or maybe the patch note about the cap was filtered through someone and they messed it up).  --Fyren 17:09, 14 January 2007 (CST)
 * Uhhgg... I love this game, but I hate the inconsistencies like this. I wish everything was a little clearer, but I guess figuring it all out is half the fun....  Then again, maybe the skills are all working just as the devs wanted them to.  Battle Rage is a stance, and in wars prime att, and is elite, so there is almost nothing to combine it with for IAS and other good things.  Foc Ang is a shout, so can be combined with stances, it even has a non-stance IAS in its same att line; these things need to be considered too.--[[image:Windjammer Icon1.jpg|12px]] Windjammer 00:39, 15 January 2007 (CST)

New Skills Template icon
I created a new template based on your code, and saved it Template:Skills-template. In testing it, I did find one problem, that I listed in the talk page. Basically, the template adds an extra character at the end of the text string. Can you take a look, and see if it's something that you would be able to resolve? I posted a suggestion to use this version at GuildWiki_talk:Style_and_formatting/Builds, but would like to try resolving the extra character before its use grows. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 14:06, 16 December 2006 (CST)


 * It was a linefeed. Got rid of it, I think.  --Fyren 14:55, 16 December 2006 (CST)
 * Thanks! I just tested, and that seems to have fixed it. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 14:58, 16 December 2006 (CST)

destubbing
sorry, i didn't realize what i was doing BMW 15:48, 16 December 2006 (CST)
 * ok, i added a skill trainer that i checked just now for Aegis, would that mean it can be destubbed? BMW 15:59, 16 December 2006 (CST)
 * Assuming you didn't have aegis unlocked before you saw that Tohn had it, yeah. If you had aegis unlocked, every skill trainer in the game will have it for you.  --Fyren 16:01, 16 December 2006 (CST)
 * ok thanx for that info, i didn't know how exactly skill trainers worked BMW 16:04, 16 December 2006 (CST)
 * If you have a core skill already unlocked on your account, every trainer in the game will teach it to any of your characters. For campaign skills, all trainers in that campaign will teach it to any of your characters. --Fyren 16:07, 16 December 2006 (CST)

GW Wiki
So I guess your the server admin, What happened to the skin, everything is messed up on the wiki, i had to go through and type in the link to get here because the whole site is lacking its style. Any idea when it'll be back up?! - SandViper 00:13, 17 December 2006 (CST)
 * Had the same problem, logged out and then in again, which fixed it. DeepSearch 02:00, 18 December 2006 (CST)
 * Need to change your skin to mediawiki in prefs iirc &mdash; Skuld 03:24, 18 December 2006 (CST)
 * Post on the bugs page if you still have a problem. --Fyren 12:24, 18 December 2006 (CST)

Image links
Hey a quick question, I was trawling through Category:Candidates for deletion and noticed that Image:Blessing Insect Hunt.png says The following pages link to this file: Bounty. But the Bounty article has been updated and uses Image:Insect_Hunt.jpg. What's the go with that, is there some page I can purge instead of manually editing the article and looking for Image:Blessing Insect Hunt.png on it? Cheers --Xasxas256 17:03, 20 December 2006 (CST)


 * Edit and save the bounty article (which I just did) without changing anything or wait for it to update itself overnight. --Fyren 17:05, 20 December 2006 (CST)


 * Ah thanks mate, learning FTW! --Xasxas256 19:03, 20 December 2006 (CST)

dances
Wouldn't it be right to then take off the napolean dynamite dance comment which is located on the Ritualist page. I mean it too is also under the dance list.
 * Feel free. --Fyren 18:04, 20 December 2006 (CST)

Thank you :)

need ya to look at something
Explosive Growth article is messed up, new lines are not being taken into consideration. I wiped the page and added two lines to test if it was an included page but it still made it one line. Xeon 09:15, 24 December 2006 (CST) fixed it

Why delete quest annotations?
I just got a notice that you deleted all the quest annotations on Corrupt Enchantment. Now it looks like you can just cap that skill at will from five different bosses, when in fact only one is available outside of a quest. I didn't go to the trouble of annotating all those bosses, as is listed under acquisition for other elite skills, just to have them deleted.
 * You can cap them at all five of those bosses. That information is about the bosses and not the skill so it belongs in the boss articles.  It is not listed in acquisitions for every elite skill and those it is listed for should have it removed.  --Fyren 14:46, 26 December 2006 (CST)
 * I disagree, and I respectfully request you cite a guildwiki rules page that states what you cliam "should and shouldn't be." That information about the bosses pertains dirtectly TO capping the skill, and having that information under acquisition helps to prevent a wild goose chase of following links to bosses only to find 4 out of 5 times you can't even get to that boss unless you have that quest.  The quest annotations are not superfluous, do not take much space, and is extremely useful information, both in terms of reader time and saving on unnecessary guildwiki server hits.  I don't believe your opinion should be the last word on the subject, and I don't appreciate your unilaterally deciding what is best for everyone.  By what procedure can your actions be put to a vote by the powers that be here?
 * Style and formatting/Skills is the style guide for skill articles. Having only the boss name and zone doesn't prevent the wild goose chase of clearing a zone to find the boss but I don't see a suggestion for inlining maps onto every skill page.  The articles linked from elite skill locations and skills by capture location are dedicated to listing capture info and (generally) have quest info.  --Fyren 15:00, 26 December 2006 (CST)
 * I have read that guide and nowhere within it does it state that quest information should be excluded from Aquisition annotations. Indeed, that quest information couldnt be more applicable to the acquisition of a skill.  Futhermore, no one, and certainly not I, has suggested inline maps to every boss under Acquisition -- your mention of it is not only an impertinent digression but also distracts the reader of this thread from the matter at hand.  Finally, in addition to your digression, you fail to answer entirely my question about the method by which your unilateral decision can be vetoed by authorized consensus. --Kyr One 15:08, 26 December 2006 (CST)
 * The point was inlining images would help more than putting in quest information yet you've picked quests as your pet peeve while flying a banner of reader utility. The lack of instruction to add quest info to bosses is enough; the guides are meant to be exhaustive, there are example acquisition sections, and the info doesn't fit anywhere else.  --Fyren 15:43, 26 December 2006 (CST)

need a ban
can you ban this guy quick, heh Xeon 21:42, 26 December 2006 (CST)
 * Thank you :) Xeon 21:49, 26 December 2006 (CST)

Improvement drive
Hi. Would you like to view and comment Talk:Main Page/editcopy. Thank you in advance! -- (talk) 21:54, 27 December 2006 (CST)


 * Moved from the user page... Sorry for the mistake. :D That's the result of 5 AM edits. Btw, your talk page is really long too. :) --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 22:29, 27 December 2006 (CST)

Finished those old templates
In regard to Template:Skill bar ex and Template:Skill box sb, I've finished fleshing out the concept (example: User:Evil_Greven/Sandbox), but to do get the full value out of the explicit skill bar, I'm going to need the help of a bot. Where the current template looks like this:

All of them will need to be changed to look like this:
 * (see: User:Evil_Greven/Test3)

Please leave a note here or on my talk page regarding this, thanks! - Greven 11:33, 28 December 2006 (CST)
 * I haven't made a change to link the data templates to builds (like in GuildWiki_talk:Style_and_formatting/Builds) because it won't scale well. When you edit a template, eventually every other template/article that uses it gets purged.  For the skill templates, that means QR pages and the skill's article.  This change would add in every build that uses a skill.  Although the purging happens in the middle of the night, I think that eventually it'll become a problem since the number of builds grows rapidly, even considering deletions.  --Fyren 18:06, 28 December 2006 (CST)
 * Purging only happens when something changes, though, doesn't it? - Greven 22:22, 28 December 2006 (CST)
 * Yes, but someone editing resurrection signet's template shouldn't cause the wiki to purge a gazillion pages. --Fyren 05:51, 29 December 2006 (CST)
 * A change to a template should only happen rarely anymore... once or twice a month at most, and not for every skill. Since we don't have to update the progression tables due to your inclusion into the template themselves, I don't see that there would be widespread changes to the skill templates.  There is something else to consider here when talking about server performance: with the basic parts of the skill already listed on the bar (costs/recharge/activation/basic effects at build's attribute rank/description on hover-over-icon), there will be less need for users to go to a skill's page to check out the details from the build page.  This should save on bandwidth usage.  Would that be enough to counterbalance the uncommon purge? - Greven 14:36, 29 December 2006 (CST)
 * The point isn't how often templates get edited since that seems to remain fairly constant (patches/new QRs/updating QR notes) but that the number of builds will only grow. At some point, even if with our current number of builds it won't be a problem, it will be.  --Fyren 18:52, 29 December 2006 (CST)
 * How about this then - limiting the template to Tested builds or Untested builds), but using the old template for Unfavored builds. With the system we have now, where we're deleting builds, most of the builds that aren't being deleted are tossed into Unfavored, with about a quarter going into Tested.  There aren't a lot of Untested builds, and I don't think there ever will be again.  It's something that could be changed without a great deal of effort (with a bot, at least ^.^) if it does become a problem. - Greven 22:28, 29 December 2006 (CST)

Link to Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike
It appears that http://creativecommons.org has updated their site. The default language where we've been linking is no longer the english version.

Can you locate where the text "Content is available under Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike." is populated for the bottom of articles? I can't find the MediaWiki link that populates the bottom of the article pages, so those are still stating with the old default (non-english) link.

I did go to Copyrights and updated it to point to the english version at http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.0/deed.en; but I can't find where the page bottom footer is maintained. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 19:36, 29 December 2006 (CST)
 * It's English for me. --Fyren 19:56, 29 December 2006 (CST)
 * It seems to detect your browser language. I had temporarily my Opera in finnish and I was taken to the finnish version instead. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 19:56, 29 December 2006 (CST)
 * Hmmm, I must be hitting a soft spot in their auto-detect logic. My browser is set to English, but I'm not being taken to the English version.  Oh well.  I'll revert back Copyrights to use the auto-detect version again. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 20:02, 29 December 2006 (CST)
 * Just tested the links with Kalomelis finnish FireFox. Both took her to the english version. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 06:10, 30 December 2006 (CST)

Thanks
Im just saying thank you for helping me out, have a good one :)! User:coolguyistalin 11:50, 30 December 2006

Skill icons
You said that the skill icons are what takes most bandwith from the wiki. Maby we should have small version of the icons for Template:Skill icon. Currently it uses the large versions resized to 25x25 pixels. Also removing the skill icon template from the elite skill lists etc might lower the bandwith used. -- (talk) 06:04, 31 December 2006 (CST)
 * Images are what take the most bandwidth. Skill icons are just individually the most viewed.  Resizing ourselves or letting the wiki resize them isn't going to make much of a difference.  Bandwidth isn't exactly a problem now but it could be better.  --Fyren 07:28, 31 December 2006 (CST)
 * It doesn't make any difference? Does the wiki cache the resized version? --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 07:47, 31 December 2006 (CST)
 * It sticks thumbnails in the filesystem and leaves them there till a new image is uploaded or the image is deleted. When a page asks for a resized version, it uses it if it exists, otherwise it makes it.  --Fyren 08:09, 31 December 2006 (CST)

Meanwhile
I'm trying to fix up the armor s&f! So I edited this page: Mesmer Ascalon Armor and its associated galleries according to some guidelines I came up with. But I'm not getting much feedback and I have a couple of questions still. So if you could check that page out, and then leave me a comment at User_talk:Bexor/Blank_Armor (my dodgy project page) that would be great. I have a lot of notes there that I want to have sorted before I rewrite the s&f thingy. - BeXoR   23:47, 31 December 2006 (CST)
 * You should look through the histories of armor pages or the history of the armor S&F and see who's been active in editing them. Ask those people.  I don't have an opinion and I've never used our armor pages, heh.  --Fyren 23:53, 31 December 2006 (CST)

changes to style guide
read here -- Xeon 03:17, 2 January 2007 (CST)

The build split proposal
Hi Fyren, sorry to bother you as I'm sure you are sick of all this build talk, but this is one last attempt to convince you that a split of PvE and PvP builds would solve many of the current problems. The main reason that there are so many problems is the conflict of interests between PvP and PvE players. The professional level PvP players on the wiki want a favored builds section that is an accurate documentation of popular builds used by top guilds. This makes total sense that they would want this. The PvE players want a place to collaborate on creative, interesting, or effective builds for PvE. They don't have as much of a concern over whether the build is "the best of the best", just whether it works, and is interesting and/or fun, and they want an easy way to collaborate with other builders. Considering the type of elitist environment that supposedly exists on other sites, and considering how the wiki is home to so much PvE related information and so many PvE build enthusiasts and tinkerers, it makes total sense that these players want this type of thing on the wiki. Everyone knows that the builds section needs to be changed in some way, but everytime it is discussed, it turns into a tug of war between these 2 conflicted interests. Splitting the builds sections into PvE and PvP would allow these 2 groups of people to move their section in the appropriate direction. For example, PvP players could decide to implement a "No Original Builds" policy, without opposition from PvE players, and PvE players could, for example, move to a less judgemental system such as the one you suggested, a "builds requiring feedback", without having to worry about PvP players' high quality concerns. The main problem though is that the conflicted interests of these 2 groups prevent consensus on any such ideas from occuring. I'm not sure if you've seen the conversation at User talk:NieA7, but we feel that a namespace split would be the ideal way to accomplish this. We realize that we need your support to implement such a thing, so that is why I decided to try to convince you of the usefulness of this split. In absence of your support, we've begun discussing if it is possible to achieve a split by category rather than namespace, but we feel it would be a bit less effective that way. If you could consider my comments and respond whenever you have a chance, it would be much appreciated. -- BrianG 13:03, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * That talk is still on? Last I looked, it was deadlocked with one group saying keep PvP build development, PvE are only useful for farming and solo builds - while the other was saying keep PvE builds, PvP are too elitist to bother developing.
 * Anyway, back on topic, can you post links to some of the multiple current conversations? I would love to try getting caught up (*rolling eyes* - but yea, I should do it).  Personally, I don't see a need for a namespace split for this - the builds already have categories to split them.  Worse, a handful of builds cross into both functions, so a namespace split would require redundancies.  I will take a look at some of the talk though, to see what opinions are flying around. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 13:11, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * Note: From what I can see on an initial look at the linked talk page - it looks to be a discussion by those who feel disenfrachised by the larger community talks on various proposals. From my perspective, any build space split should originate in full community discussions within proposals, not on a user's talk page which may or may not even be seen by those interrested in the discussion. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 13:16, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * In fairness the real meat of the discussion is on the proposals talk page - I was just saying what I was going to do to that proposal on my talk page before actually doing it, and from there we've got to here. --NieA7 14:08, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * And in response to the deadlock bit, I don't really think that applies to split as it's intentionally not a vetting-type proposal. To quote what I've said before: "Build split is specifically designed to achieve nothing in terms of policy at this point. It's meant to be a simple foundation to the development of policies for PvP and PvE builds, whatever those policies will be. For example, after split NOB could easily be applied to PvP and not PvE, or vice versa - the flexibility will be there. Look around - anything which includes even a shred of policy is discussed to death before a stalemate is reached and nothing achieved. I made Split as simple as possible so it could be done, and once done be of use to people developing policies after it. Better to take it one step at a time and start walking than go for a sprint and fall flat on your face." Fact is after split you could still happily wipe out all the PvP or PvE builds, the difference would be that there's a lot more flexibility in the way you can go about things. You're right that it will lead to some redundancy, but I imagine there's only a few builds which are both PvE and PvP, and the benefits of being able to treat the two separately outweigh the problem of redundancy (in my opinion at any rate). --NieA7 14:16, 4 January 2007 (CST)


 * Part of the problem is that there have been so many people talking about proposals which have been constantly modified, and all doing it in 3 different locations (not counting user pages). I wish someone who knew their way (e.g. not me) around could help organize discussion. -- [[Image:Ranger-icon-small.png|25px]]Oblio (talk) 14:23, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * The last person to successfully take charge of the process eventually walked away from the wiki. A lot of good progress had been done by him, but it's incomplete. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 14:24, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * I'd love to be able to take over his work, or let someone else do it, but the fact is that as things stand nobody is ever going to agree with anything. --NieA7 14:43, 4 January 2007 (CST)


 * At this time, I see nothing that can't be addressed via categories. As for a split namespace - I honestly feel that a policy split (which I question the assumed need for one in the first place - but again, I'm still reading) would be needed before a namespace split, and even if there were a policy split, it would be possible within a single namespace.  But, I've only started catching up on the proposals - there's a lot of text - will read more of the talks later today or tonight.  --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 14:24, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * Barek, my apologies, I should have included the actual policy link Build Split. In regards to your comments about namespace vs categories, I feel it could work both ways, but categories would still require redundancies. If PvE and PvP sections have different submission and vetting procedures, then a build would not simply be able to be placed in both categories, it would need to be duplicated so it could be handled accordingly. This could still be done, but we think a namespace split would be much cleaner and easier to manage. Thats really up to you admins though, we are interested in pursuing the split in whatever way the admins are willing to try. -- BrianG 14:28, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * While it may be possible to achieve this with categories, having a name space split would be easier to administer, easier for users to understand and is just generally a more elegant solution. I think ultimately it's going to come down to either dumping builds entirely or splitting PvP and PvE as most of the friction at the moment is between those two camps. What I'm hoping will be achieved by splitting before working out a policy is a subsequently easier policy discussion. Right now every single builds policy discussion is absolutely stuck in the mud - a general consensus is nice to have, but I sincerely doubt it will ever be achieved, and in the mean time we're left with a section that a lot of users (or at least a several very vocal users) aren't happy with. By splitting them now and maintaining the policies we have we'd be allowing the future policy discussions to proceed along much smoother lines (or, to put it another way, every other comment won't be either "Get the hell out of here elitist PvP snob" or "Anything works in PvE, I once completed the entire Prophecies campaign without a single skill on my bar").
 * Ultimately I'd prefer to have this conversation on the policy's talk page, but as with every other policy after a couple of days it'd just be ignored and things would roll along as usual. Hopefully by splitting now we can reinvigorate the process as a whole, and get a little closer to giving everybody what they want. I think it'd gotta be worth a go - it's a relatively small change that comes with no policy baggage attached, yet once in place it could lead to a reformation of builds. It's so near and yet so far that it's quite frustrating to see people insisting on ironing policies out first when there's not been even the slightest indication that as a whole wiki users are capable of doing that. --NieA7 14:43, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * Wiki users have proven time and time again that they are capable of ironing out policies. The problem here, from what I've read in the three threads that I've tracked down thus far, is that all parties are too vested in their sides of the debates.  There is no neutral party that's trusted by enough parties to lead an impartial campaign to resolve the issues.
 * Back to the split, your statements actually make me feel stronger against a namespace split for now. Not ruling it out, just feeling that it's not the right time for it.  I may be misunderstanding, but it reads like you're frustrated by lack of progress in the builds discussions, so you want to force the issue with a namespace split - which would give incentive towards the group(s) in the discussions that want a policy split.  I am still not convinced that a policy split is the right direction to go, although I am starting to understand more the arguments for and against it from all parties.  --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:24, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * I believe it when I see it, and so far all I've seen is stuff like Build talk:W/E Starburst Warrior, involving admins, high profile users and many others. My concern is that the build debate will get so vitriolic, so personalised and so unpleasant that other, more objective users will step in and simply call the whole thing off - cull the builds section entirely. I believe that would be a great mistake. I also believe that the way to go forward is in small steps, not in giant leaps. As of now, I can't think of a better way of doing that than simply breaking the polarisation between the two main camps by forcibly separating them. I'm open to other suggestions, but to date the only alternatives offered have been "leave things as they are" (see the Starburst Warrior) or cull builds entirely (and that option's twin "document proven and observed PvP builds"). I think both of those alternatives are highly damaging, not for our "reputation" or other such inconsequentials, but simply for the people who use this site to enjoy a game a little more than they might on their own. I'm not trying to force the policy issue, I'm trying to stop the policies forcing builds off the site. --NieA7 17:04, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * Barek, personally, its hard to say who trusts who to be neutral, but for what its worth, I am attempting to be a neutral party here. I believe that both the PvP and PvE people are right about the direction the build section should go in, they just can't both be right at the same time in the same policy. For example, I think "No Original Builds" is a great idea for handling PvP builds, I just don't think it should come at the expense of eliminating PvE builds as has been suggested. This seems like a neutral stance to me, I want both groups to be happy! I'm not sure if I understand the difference between splitting the builds sections and splitting the policies. Wouldn't they both have to take place at the same time? I think what we are really asking for is a policy split, but it will be a lot easier to develop an appropriate policy if it is in reference to a section split that has already occurred, rather than trying to imagine how it will function in advance. Thats why we are asking for the sections to be split, so the policies can also be split and improved independently. I wasn't aware though that there was a specific "policy split" discussion, could you direct me to it? -- BrianG 17:20, 4 January 2007 (CST)

Check out Barek's latest proposal here. --  Vallen Frostweaver  07:42, 8 January 2007 (CST)

Possible Sockpuppet Alert
Hi, User:SIinky and User:androidgeoff look to be sockpuppets. I'm basing this off the fact that (a) Slinky make an edit to Andriod's page that only the author could/would make; (b) Slinky has submitted a build Build:Mo/R Speed Cupido that is identically named to Build:Mo/R Cupido (latter authored by Andriod). I would appreciate if you could investigate and determine if they're using the same IP, and take it from there. Thanks. Entropy 00:34, 5 January 2007 (CST)

Also. They have both added the exact same note to Balthazar's Pendulum, as did User:66.177.90.98, who I now believe is the common IP used by both. Pretty fair evidence in my eyes. Entropy 00:39, 5 January 2007 (CST)
 * My home connection is too screwy right now to check. A cursory inspection on the technical side shows no evidence.  It could just be friends collaborating.  --Fyren 01:33, 5 January 2007 (CST)
 * On a related topic, I was already watching User:androidgeoff and User:Slinky (note, different username than User:SIinky). I have no idea how they're connected - I've been suspecting friends collaborating - but saw some odd behavior so had been keeping an eye on them just to be sure.  --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 10:37, 5 January 2007 (CST)

User:Song Rui, User:Kyro27, User:SIinky (not User:Slinky), User:Androidgeoff; looks like a bunch of friends who should probably find something better to do, to me :) &mdash; Skuld 14:09, 5 January 2007 (CST)

hello, i am sorry that u feel this way about us but all we mean is good here, we are trying to become very helpful wikicitizens here, some of the edits by some of the ip adresses and by androidgeoff on my page were him just helping me on how to get colors on my page, is there anything wrong with that??--Kyro27 14:42, 5 January 2007 (CST)
 * Not a problem. My main issue had been the User:Slinky account (now deleted), which another user complained about as it was an exact copy of an older version of his user page (even his character names and character images).  The user in the copy claimed he was the original, although the image uploads and the edit dates didn't support that claim.  I haven't looked at all of the users that Skuld mentioned, but User:androidgeoff and User:SIinky used the same layout, just fixing to reflect their own characters in-game.  --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 15:04, 5 January 2007 (CST)
 * dude im no trol im just lookin out for a fellow man. also kyro 27 is not cool.SIinky 19:54, 5 January 2007 (CST)

yo yo yo yo homeie
alright dog im redy 2 make a fresh start sory if annoyied anyone. im a good dude now man im learnin like eleven languages hard on my mind sometimes i jsut gotta RELESAE. SIinky 03:39, 7 January 2007 (CST)

Ban
Could you check the Category:Candidates for banning? I recently added an anon in there for vandalising the ArenaNet article. — Jyro X 05:55, 8 January 2007 (CST)
 * I wouldn't ban him for that. There's no hard policy about when to ban or not ban.  --Fyren 06:08, 8 January 2007 (CST)

Skill Clarifications
Hi there, I recently went to the "They're on Fire!" page to get clarification on how the skill worked because the wording in-game is vague (not to everyone, but at least to me). I didn't find the info I wanted on the main page, so I went into Talk:"They're on Fire!" and found that a clarification note was there previously but had been removed because some said it was too obvious. I suggested that the note be restored because I had to go through the whole Discussion page myself to find my answer. The response I got included "WTF" and "I don't think skill pages should be places where we explain basics each time". I defended my support for the clarification note and got no rebuttal to my argument. A few days later, another person came in and asked for clarification on basically the same issue I had. At that point I posted an edit to the main page, restoring the clarification note, and posted to the Discussion page saying I had done so. Skuld quickly replied and reverted my edit, saying that people need to refer to the Damage article for clarification. I think that the spirit of the Wiki is to address common questions at the source rather than relying on those confused people to hunt for the answer themselves. I also think that two people seeking clarification in just a few days' time is indicative of a need for clarification. Thanks!--Lodurr 18:03, 8 January 2007 (CST)
 * If you would include the note there, we would also need to include it to a million other skill pages which use the word damage. The link is there for you to click on it. Having the same information on a million pages is not a good idea. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 18:10, 8 January 2007 (CST)
 * I agree with Gem. If you're unsure what "damage" means, you should follow the existing link from that page over to the damage article.  That's why the link exists, and is part of the beauty of wiki design.
 * We shouldn't need to explain every game mechanic in every article that references them - the links eliminate that need. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 18:12, 8 January 2007 (CST)
 * It's not the "damage" part that was confusing but the "damage from enemies" part--whether that applies to just attacks or skills and spells as well--so the Damage page didn't sufficiently clarify. At issue is not what damage is, but whether or not spells and skills remember who sent them.  And the answer is "yes they do," but it's not self-evident.--Lodurr 18:29, 8 January 2007 (CST)
 * Your the first person ever I've met to whom this isn't self-evident. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 18:32, 8 January 2007 (CST)
 * And even if it isn't, a single skill page isn't the place to say it. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 18:33, 8 January 2007 (CST)


 * The skill description states "For 20 seconds, allies within earshot take 5...41% less damage from foes suffering from Burning."
 * The Damage article states in its first sentence "Damage in Guild Wars results from actions taken by attackers that subtract a portion of a defender's health. This definition includes many attacks or skills (including spells) but does not include health degeneration, life stealing, sacrifice, or health reduction caused by skills..."
 * The Note you added states "Reduces damage from attacks, skills, and spells caused by burning enemies. It doesn't reduce life stealing effects, which are not considered damage."
 * There is nothing in your note that is not in the skill description, or in the very first sentence of the damage article.
 * As I said before, we shouldn't need to explain every game mechanic in every article that references them - the links eliminate that need. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 18:39, 8 January 2007 (CST)
 * Ultimately my confusion wasn't about how damage works, but how the skill works. Skill descriptions in Guild Wars are very often incomplete or even incorrect.  Since this skill is a party-wide skill that you might base a whole team build on, I had to be sure of how it worked before I had my team run it.  What's really at issue is giving clarification to a skill when it's shown that people need it.
 * The Notes section of a skill page is not expected to be uniform--it's where any information of interest is put. Protective Spirit's page includes a note on life stealing not being damage, but Shield of Absorption's page does not.  I think you're holding my proposed addition to the Notes section of ToF to a higher level of scrutiny and uniformity than other Notes sections.
 * Thanks for your input and hopefully we're closer to seeing this issue the same way.--Lodurr 15:14, 9 January 2007 (CST)
 * The skill description for Protective Spirit is, as you point out, misleading. Thus, the note clarifies it.  The skill description for "They're on Fire!" is not misleading.  Its self-explainatory.  Are you saying we should add notes to all that are correctly phrased that says "this skill does what it say and says what it does"? --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 15:40, 9 January 2007 (CST)
 * You misunderstood my example. Prot Spirit's description is not misleading regarding life stealing, and yet there's a clarification under Notes that states that life stealing is not damage and is not affected by Prot Spirit.  The same note would apply to Shield of Absorption but it's not there because it's not a common misconception.    Again, the Notes sections of skill descriptions are not strictly uniform but a space to put any useful information, so why would adding a clarification to one skill necessitate it being added to other skills?  I understand the purpose of consistency in technical writing, but consistency to the extreme is not helpful.--Lodurr 16:03, 9 January 2007 (CST)
 * Protectiv eSpirit states 'lose health' which usually also includes life stealing. "They're on Fire!" states 'damage' and life stealing is not damage. Therefor PS needs the note, ToF not. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 16:19, 9 January 2007 (CST)
 * From Prot Spirit's text: "target ally cannot lose more than 10% max Health due to damage from a single attack or Spell." It clearly states "due to damage."  The note regarding life stealing should therefore not be permitted since the Damage page explains that life stealing is not damage.--Lodurr 16:32, 9 January 2007 (CST)
 * Oh yeah, learns me to read. Do what ever you like to the note. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 16:37, 9 January 2007 (CST)
 * I would prefer to keep the note there, and add a similarly helpful note to the "They're on Fire!" page.--Lodurr 17:10, 9 January 2007 (CST)
 * That's a good point. I agree, the life stealing comment should be removed from there as well. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 19:11, 9 January 2007 (CST)
 * I'll respect the stylistic decision the GW Wiki editors make. But I'll just say that I think it's a mistake to move this site away from being a user-friendly encyclopedia that addresses all frequently asked questions, and towards being a site for insiders and the hardcore audience who already know the answers anyway.  That might sound like an exaggeration, but to follow this policy, many other helpful clarification Notes will have to go.--Lodurr 20:57, 9 January 2007 (CST)
 * Eh? Are you totally serious with this whole thing? The damage issue is totally clear for everyone who cares to read the damage article. There is nothing special when life steal doesn't count as damage. I don't see anything else affected by this decision we made. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 21:12, 9 January 2007 (CST)
 * Another example is from Retribution's Notes:
 * "This spell works only on attacks. This means it does not work on spells and signets. This makes it a good choice when facing warriors, rangers and assassins and a poor choice when facing elementalists, necromancers, mesmers, ritualists and monks."
 * It must either be amended to read, "This spell is a good choice when facing warriors, rangers and assassins and a poor choice when facing elementalists, necromancers, mesmers, ritualists and monks," which is cryptic and not a good Note, or must be removed entirely. Or, as Barek has suggested, every skill that triggers on an "attack" would have to have a Note saying that it does not trigger on spells and signets.
 * Despite being self-evident to experienced players, Retribution confuses newer players who might assume the skill will return damage from all sources. It is a helpful note, just as the Prot Spirit note was helpful.  But both must now be removed, and there are undoubtedly more.--Lodurr 21:29, 9 January 2007 (CST)
 * PS is used really really often and so might need an exception. For the other two I don't see a reason for the notes. I don't care that much if you go on a crusade either adding or removing similiar notes, but other users might have something to say about that. There are a lot of notes for skills which are plain useless and probably many usefull ones are missing. Someone doing a crusade on them might be good. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 00:44, 10 January 2007 (CST)

Cite.php
Hi Fryen, here comes another request from me: Could you install the cite.php MediaWiki extension on the server? That'd be great. Quite a few times in the past I would have found it useful. Thanks in advance. -- 11:09, 9 January 2007 (CST)


 * Do you think you'd use it enough to justify an extension instead of just using template:ref and template:note? --Fyren 19:16, 9 January 2007 (CST)


 * These templates work fine. The only problem with them is that the numbering has to be done manually, which, in case of a long list like for example the list of pop culture references in Inscription, can be quite a hassle. But if you'd rather not install the extension I'll work around it with the templates and manual sorting. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 06:05, 10 January 2007 (CST)


 * Oh, wait a second. I just did some testing with the templates and see now that the numbering is indeed done automatically. I think in this case I can perfectly live with the templates. Scrap my request. :) --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 06:07, 10 January 2007 (CST)

Bot for redirecting Greyscale skill pics
Gem suggested I ask you about a bot to redirect the greyscale pics I've been working on such as. Can you bot these so they revvert to the skill and not the image. I've gone through all the core professions and should hopefully have the rest done by the weekend. I also don't know if it's easier to do them all at once or what. Thanks for any help.Flesh Over Steel 20:34, 9 January 2007 (CST)
 * At once. Let me know when they're all uploaded.  --Fyren 20:37, 9 January 2007 (CST)
 * I've finished uploading them. I don't like Paragons anymore since they have all those "shouts!" :)  Thanks. Forgot to add..they're all saved as Gr_Skill_Name, such as Gr_Flare or Gr_"They're_On_Fire!". Flesh Over Steel 19:04, 11 January 2007 (CST)
 * Done. --Fyren 15:08, 12 January 2007 (CST)
 * Thanks, wish I'd had a bot for the greyscale conversion. Flesh Over Steel 17:35, 12 January 2007 (CST)

Locking a page not yet created?
Is there anyway to make it so that a page cannot be created with a certain name? The specific page I'm thinking of is Pie, as you can see from the deletion history, it seems that this page is a favorite for vandals. --Rainith 20:06, 11 January 2007 (CST)
 * I assume it can be locked from a system side somehow - although it might be easier to just create a dummy article with that name - just make it a redirect to Main Page, then lock the article. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 20:15, 11 January 2007 (CST)
 * You can't. You can only create the page and protect it. --Fyren 03:38, 12 January 2007 (CST)
 * As long as these frequent empty articles targetting by vandals are protected, I'm for any way to fill them. &mdash; Gares 15:25, 12 January 2007 (CST)
 * Maybe create article and have it as simply "This article is made to prevent it from being crated" a bit like User:Example--- [[Image:Star-small.png]] ~Edo Dodo~ [[Image:Star-small.png]] (msg) 15:28, 12 January 2007 (CST)
 * A redirect to the main page and a protection is a good idea. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 19:39, 12 January 2007 (CST)

Sorry bout that am new here.
Just trying to help some newbies out.

Thanks for putting that thumbnail in the Command_line article.

I better learn how to do that eh, lolz.

Tyvm, CoolWolf 17:31, 13 January 2007 (CST)

Use of show/hide
I've noticed that the hideous hide/show abomination has been nosing its way into some articles (Miniature is the most recent example). I have no problem with it used in user spaces; but as it's now showing in articles, do you know what code I can put in my personal .js or .css to disable it for my own browser UI? --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 10:22, 15 January 2007 (CST)


 * I think that we should avoid using it in articles. If the boxes are needed, a sub page is generally a better choice. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 11:42, 15 January 2007 (CST)
 * Rainith reverted the edit to Miniature. He referenced a conversation where it was decided not to use the toggles in articles.  I thought I recalled something like that, but as I couldn't locate it, I wasn't certain what came of that talk.  So, if it's not in the articles, no problems (like I said, I can live with it in the user space, so no need to block the functioning now). --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:55, 15 January 2007 (CST)


 * If you want some kind of wiki-wide enforcement, the JS and CSS should be removed from monobook's site wide stuff and users should have to add it themselves. Talk to Tetris or Skuld about it, I guess, since Tetris wanted it and I think Skuld made the edits.  --Fyren 16:58, 15 January 2007 (CST)


 * Off the top of my head, dunno. JS isn't my strong point.  I'll try looking into it later. --Fyren 16:58, 15 January 2007 (CST)

Elite skill lists
I think that all of the elite skill lists should be protected like the core elite skill list. Currently the only edits to them are mistakenly added elites of another campaign and reverts. (+the color changes etc which admins can do when needed) -- (talk) 16:40, 15 January 2007 (CST)
 * It was like that at one point, then people complained and they were unprotected. :(  --Rainith 17:04, 15 January 2007 (CST)
 * Skuld protected the core list. --Fyren 17:08, 15 January 2007 (CST)
 * Is there a real reason why they shouldn't be protected? --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 17:09, 15 January 2007 (CST)
 * They're locked now - The Nightfall list didn't appear to have nearly the amount of vandalism as the others; but I protected that one as well to make it consistent.
 * If anyone has a reason not to protect them, let me (or any admin) know. Another option is to only lock them to non-logged in accounts, as almost all of the vandalism appeared to be done by anonymous IP.  If there is a complaint about the protection, I would like to only open them to that intermediate level of protection. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 17:25, 15 January 2007 (CST)
 * It appears I was mistaken, I think I was thinking of the unique items lists. Sorry for any confusion (blarg, Mondays).  --Rainith 17:41, 15 January 2007 (CST)

Your bot?
User talk:Delete page script? --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 19:24, 15 January 2007 (CST)

OpenSearch Plugin
Are there any plans to integrate an OpenSearch plugin for Guild Wiki?

I can help if necessary, its not hard to do and only takes a minute to add the html tag and upload the small xml file. AND it works for Firefox 2 and IE7.

Here is what I'm talking about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_search http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Creating_OpenSearch_plugins_for_Firefox http://www.opensearch.org/Home

70.153.93.9 00:20, 17 January 2007 (CST)


 * Wait a while. MW 1.9.0 was just released, so I'm waiting a week or two to see if there's anything found that would prompt a quick 1.9.1 release.  Newer versions of MW can generate their own OpenSearch description files.  --Fyren 09:23, 17 January 2007 (CST)


 * It looks like there's already an extension. I don't know how useful this is.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 11:30, 17 January 2007 (CST)


 * I'm not installing random extensions especially when newer versions have the same functionality as core. --Fyren 11:32, 17 January 2007 (CST)


 * Well, it's not random, it's linked to from mediawiki.org (I didn't just find this on google and think you should install it), as I said I didn't know if it's useful or not.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 11:36, 17 January 2007 (CST)


 * There is no requirement for listing an extension on meta or mw.org. --Fyren 11:37, 17 January 2007 (CST)


 * Lol, fine :P <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 11:38, 17 January 2007 (CST)


 * MW 1.9.1 was released today. You were right to wait. --Phoenix [[Image:Phoenix_Benu.png]] 08:55, 24 January 2007 (CST)

There's now a for the built-in OpenSearch XML on every page. --Fyren 06:45, 29 January 2007 (CST)


 * I just added GuildWiki to Firefox, and the suggestions are awesome. This rocks. [[Image:Star-small.png]] <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 07:14, 29 January 2007 (CST)

What's up with all these unsigned comments or votes?
Hey, I have been exploring wiki for a few days, and I have found quite a few unsigned votes, for example, look in the dervish tested builds at the Dark Silenced runner, 3 unsigned votes! How should wiki go about that you think? If you could just give me any sort of reply I would really apreciative, because if people keep anon voting the own build, how reliable is the wiki lol? (Reedem@G-account 02:29, 17 January 2007 (CST))
 * You can check the article history to see who has voted. Then you can use the unsigned template to show whose comment/vote it was. There is no way to hide who made the edit as the article history stores everything. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 02:35, 17 January 2007 (CST)
 * I know that, but it still does not help much, a person could just vote a few hours later anon, or a I missing something important? ~ Its readem, or is it?
 * A person could register as many accounts as they wanted, too. --Fyren 22:26, 17 January 2007 (CST)
 * We can't do anything about that. Your orignial post complained about not signing, but how would signing votes make any differene. The sig shows the same info as the article history. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 02:26, 18 January 2007 (CST)

Well, thanks for trying guys, I appreciate it. Thanks anyway. (Reedem@G-account 17:33, 18 January 2007 (CST))

Skill Trainer Edits
Yes I am aware of this and I've only unlocked a few skills from my ritualist as she is still new. If there are some skills not offered at this trainer then please feel free to correct it, yet this is the first ritualist I have played and I have not taken any side quests to unlock skills. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.205.26.254 (contribs) 03:58, 18 January 2007.
 * So, checking 24.205.26.254's history there are now many Rit skills that have extraneous trainers listed on them. =( — HarshLanguage [[Image:qswearing_small.png|HarshLanguage]] 02:39, 18 January 2007 (CST)
 * Fyren, I'm working on reverting these trainer edits. However, please see User talk:24.205.26.254... I'm looking for a place to suggest a change to the "skill trainer" wording to prevent this sort of thing in the future. Where is the best place to make such a suggestion and participate in the subsequent discussion (if any)? — HarshLanguage [[Image:qswearing_small.png|HarshLanguage]] 22:39, 19 January 2007 (CST)
 * Hmm, having read Style_and_formatting/Skills once again, I need some clarification. Is the style to list the first trainer with the skill, unless that trainer is in a "training" area other than Kamadan, in which case the first trainer available to foreign characters should also be listed? I'm inferring most of that rule, the S&F article doesn't say that explicitly. Thanks for the help. — HarshLanguage [[Image:qswearing_small.png|HarshLanguage]] 23:12, 19 January 2007 (CST)
 * Really, every trainer. It's just that we can't get the info.  --Fyren 01:28, 20 January 2007 (CST)

qr
Im just looking at Trap skills quick reference atm and noticed a little problem, it uses the qr which i think what the article should be formated like, the only problem is the qr does not list what attribute it is under for the profession. For instance Stance skills quick reference has it split by profession but not by attribute. There are three solutions i can think of atm. Add into the qr template a flag, when set it shows just under the wording 'Core' or 'Factions' on a new line, the attribute under it. Duplicate the qr and call it something like xqr (extra qr), i dont like this solution much or another solution is to use ==Mesmer== and ===Fast Casting===, i played around with this but it formats badly. You really need to archive your talk page, its so long. Any other ideas? -- Xeon 03:03, 18 January 2007 (CST)


 * I would favour using the == Profession == and === Attribute === headers. I thought that this was the standard for quick references? I know the profession quick references, i.e. Monk skills quick reference splits each skill into attributes. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 06:55, 18 January 2007 (CST)
 * Hmm i just tried that again, it looks fine now... must of stuffed something up. Only thing i dont like is the plain space between the main header and sub header. example, Stance_skills_quick_reference. Just the edit button on the right needs to be moved down a bit. -- Xeon 07:05, 18 January 2007 (CST)


 * You can get rid of edit buttons with __NOEDIT__, but I wouldn't recommend it in this instance, the edit buttons look fine. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 07:48, 18 January 2007 (CST)
 * Im just looking at Sunspear Rebirth Signet, it should be in Category:Signets but its not. Any idea why? -- Xeon 03:38, 23 January 2007 (CST)
 * I've only been putting the "normal" 1135 skills (1134 profession skills plus resurrection signet) into non-"special" categories. Though I may have forgotten to check some or others may have added them.  So basically everything but PvE-only stuff.  I think I mentioned in a reply to you on a talk page somewhere that you could make a PvE/monster/whatever QR.  --Fyren 03:48, 23 January 2007 (CST)
 * Ah ok, i was wondering what you ment by that when you said it. That was in reference to adding a new list on the skill home page to these skills. Someone added them after i mentioned it though, to the current format so i didnt bother following it up. That brings up another question, should i bother listing PvE on the qr's, also Destructive was Glaive is technically an Item Spell, should that be put in Item spell category? -- Xeon 03:56, 23 January 2007 (CST)
 * For Glaive, probably add it separate from the rest with a note. Maybe also test it with... uh... renewing memories or whatever modifies item spell costs, too.  It might just be the description is wrong.  Dunno about PvE stuff, maybe also separate from the others.  --Fyren 04:05, 23 January 2007 (CST)

Thank you
I just wanted to say thank you and I am sorry for the mistake. I have confused the pages --Tsubasa Ikemoto 19:26, 21 January 2007 (CST)

deleted
i only wanted there to be a page for male warrior because iwanted "male warrior" in my user page not to be red, dont make a controversy over it. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chrisworld (contribs).
 * What controversy? The article should not exist.  --Fyren 20:57, 21 January 2007 (CST)
 * I just wanted to have Male warrior in my user page not appear as red text..thats all, the only way to have it not appear red was seeming ot have an article for it, sorry for any trouble i caused and i changed it tojust..."warrior"
 * Btw have a look at my user page its a skill, lol sort of. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chrisworld (contribs).
 * I did. Leave the link red, don't use the template, or make your own edited copy of the template that won't make a link.  --Fyren 21:04, 21 January 2007 (CST)

The redirects...
The redirects were created by an anonymous user, and I only flagged them for deletion, in accordance with the policy you pointed out. Could you let the anon user know about this policy? Thanks. -- <font color=#800000>Imbril Shadowfire  15:35, 22 January 2007 (CST)
 * Policy was changed. &mdash;[[Image:BlastedtSigleft.jpg]]Blastedt[[Image:BlastedtSigright.jpg]]&mdash; 15:35, 22 January 2007 (CST)
 * The policy at GW:REDIRECT was changed; but, the new redirects created by the anon did not follow the format specified in the policy (plurals should be in all lower-case). --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:15, 22 January 2007 (CST)

RE: Iron Mist notes consolidation.
I really liked how you reduced my Note there.

That is all :) GrammarNazi 13:52, 23 January 2007 (CST)

The little + tab on talk pages
Is there a way to get the little + tab available on a non-talk page by placing some content in that non-talk page? Thanks. -- Oblio (talk) 14:43, 24 January 2007 (CST)
 * __NEWSECTIONLINK__ . Feel free to use it on your user pages, but generally don't use it in articles.  --Fyren 16:20, 24 January 2007 (CST)
 * Is there a list for all of these codes somewhere? --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 16:29, 24 January 2007 (CST)
 * metawm:Magic word. --Fyren 16:36, 24 January 2007 (CST)
 * Thanks! --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 16:52, 24 January 2007 (CST)
 * Thanks a million! -- [[Image:Ranger-icon-small.png|25px]]Oblio (talk) 10:09, 25 January 2007 (CST)
 * Yeah, thanks! That's a nice list.  Added to my useful links list now.  :D --[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  10:38, 25 January 2007 (CST)
 * That is uber useful. Thanks. --Armond Warblade (talk) 18:27, 25 January 2007 (CST)

Limit on characters used in usernames?
Anyway to set a limit on the number of characters that can be used in a username? Just curious after the incidents today if maybe something like 20-25 character limit would be possible and a good idea. --Rainith 17:09, 25 January 2007 (CST)
 * Set the limit to 50 (across all wikis, since it has to be (argh)). --Fyren 03:47, 26 January 2007 (CST)
 * Maby an even smaller limit, 30 would be perfectly okay. No one needs a longer one as it's allready a bit inconvinient at that length. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 04:33, 26 January 2007 (CST)

Server-side
One of those damn kids are back. Banning the CIDR block didn't work. See Special:ipblocklist for the new registered names. This is getting out of hand. &mdash; Gares 23:14, 25 January 2007 (CST)


 * Nevermind, apparently Rainith knew something I didn't. *shakes fist at Rainith* I wanted that one too. I'll sit here patiently for 3 months. :P &mdash; Gares 23:28, 25 January 2007 (CST)


 * The range Rainith blocked isn't the one he/they are currently using. We can keep blocking ranges, but we'll end up blocking everyone using Telus in the Calgary area eventually. --Fyren 23:37, 25 January 2007 (CST)


 * That was the range that SIinky used the first time he caused trouble. --Rainith 23:38, 25 January 2007 (CST)


 * And that wouldn't be cool at all, because it'd prevent me from editing from home :P ...not that I'll be home again for another month or so and even then only for a week :) &mdash; [[Image:Fin_sig.gif|User:Kyrasantae]] <font color=#000080>kyrasantae   00:10, 26 January 2007 (CST)


 * I've gotten an email from User:ImbrilShadowfire saying he was blocked by that range blocking (142.59.xxx.xxx). I tried selectively unblocking his IP and username, but no go for him. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 00:14, 26 January 2007 (CST)


 * Silly Canadians. Perhaps Kyrasantae and Imbril can organize an enforcer squad and encourage them to stop editing so that both their knees don't get broken.  --Fyren 00:17, 26 January 2007 (CST)
 * Haha, I doubt some redwood whose life consists of writing stories about imaginary characters in an MMO could break my fucking knees. Miniature Jungle Troll x20 16:30, 29 January 2007 (CST)
 * I've seen on Wikipedia references to blocking IP without blocking registered users who use that IP. Any idea how - or is that something they have from v1.7 or 1.8? --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 00:20, 26 January 2007 (CST)


 * I looked and found the reference I had seen before at Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Instructions_to_admins. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 00:26, 26 January 2007 (CST)


 * That feature won't be available until I upgrade MW here. It won't help with the vandalism much since he's shown he's willing to switch IPs and register new accounts anyway. It will help existing users not get caught in blanket bans when ranges are blocked.  --Fyren 00:31, 26 January 2007 (CST)
 * Yup - it's that collateral damage that I'm concerned about. I just unblocked the 142.59 range as that's the one that was impacting ImbrilShadowfire. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 00:35, 26 January 2007 (CST)


 * I saw the discussion and was going to say that the MW 1.91 update would allow us to block an IP range but allow single users from that IP range to use their account normally, but Fyren had ofcourse noticed it allready. I'm not sure if you guys noticed, but there are more long user names, probably Slinky, popping around here and there. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 04:37, 26 January 2007 (CST)

Possibly same problem here, someone at User:24.148.35.238 says they cannot edit. Says 84 blocked him (message is "general mischief / blatant disrespect towards administrators"). Only one contrib on that particular IP, by androidgeoff. &mdash; Skuld 13:03, 26 January 2007 (CST)


 * Hey, that's my neck of the woods. Yeah, from his user page history, that's the IP range of User:Andriodgeoff. &mdash; Gares 13:24, 26 January 2007 (CST)


 * If a registered user is blocked, the system behind the scenes monitors the IPs most recently used by that user and will autoblock if those try connecting (I think it watches the IP for 24 hours after the initial user block). In this case, it looks like block #1999 on Special:Ipblocklist is the relevant one.
 * It's suspicious that an IP from a cable provider (most of which user semi-static addresses) which had belonged to Andriodgeoff for at least three weeks, was then used by a third party within 24 hours after Androidgeoff was blocked. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 13:43, 26 January 2007 (CST)

GW:NPA aka GW:GARES
I wanted to request your comments on No personal attacks, to see if you had any concerns with the contents (wordiness, definitions, flexibility, enforcement concerns, etc) of the proposed policy. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 14:30, 26 January 2007 (CST)

quest list bug
From this page (bug in quest list), can you tell me how you go the sub-page? I can't find a way.. :(

Thanx in advance.. &mdash; <font color=#477391>Corsaire  17:01, 27 January 2007 (CST)
 * By typing the title myself. You can click edit on a page that includes another and at the bottom there'll be a list of links to all the included pages.  --Fyren 17:03, 27 January 2007 (CST)


 * Oh my god! This was so simple! Usually, the part is used to show pages linking to the edited page (or I'm confusing with images?) and didn't read any further.. many thanx!! &mdash; <font color=#477391>Corsaire  [[image:Corsaire_Signature.gif]] 17:07, 27 January 2007 (CST)


 * The edit form always shows included articles/templates. What links here is a separate page and image pages show which pages the image is used on.  --Fyren 17:09, 27 January 2007 (CST)

Speciality fansite icon
Great job with the upgrade. However after the update we lost the speciality fansite icon. It sould be added back soon before Anet notices. --Phoenix 04:30, 29 January 2007 (CST)
 * For now, I'm leaving the skin as the default. In a few hours if nothing explodes, I'll re-add the ads and logo.  --Fyren 04:34, 29 January 2007 (CST)

7
WHYD U DELETE 7?!?!?!

OblivioWiki log-in issues
Hey Fyren, this is Spec from OblivioWiki. For some reason, I can't log in to my account at OblivioWiki; it states that my account doesn't exist. My userpage exists, but I don't show up (and neither does Hellhound) under the system generated list of Admins. Also, I noticed that only six people are on the user list. Do you know what's up? Thanks, -- theSpectator talk 23:24, 29 January 2007 (CST)
 * My fault. Messed up upgrading to 1.9.1, should be fixed now.  --Fyren 23:52, 29 January 2007 (CST)


 * Awesome, thanks Fyren. -- theSpectator talk 00:59, 30 January 2007 (CST)

Make Haste! skill trainers
Hi, yes I know how skill trainers work. This skill isn't unlocked on my account and I checked all the trainers I added on the skill page, so it should be correct. Of course, there're quite some trainers that don't offer 'new' skills compared with a 'previous' trainer (if you know what I mean), maybe they can be left out ? --Erszebet 09:03, 30 January 2007 (CST)

Can you get in touch?
Hi, there,

I'd like to get in touch with you via email. Can you drop me a line? Send to community@arena.net, if you please.

Thanks a bunch and I look forward to hearing from you!

Gaile Gray Community Relations Manager ArenaNet

&mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gaile Gray (contribs).
 * Sent. --Fyren 19:08, 30 January 2007 (CST)


 * Any reply yet, Fyren?
 * I know I'm nosey, and this is probably none of my business, but, as you said yourself today: "I try to keep most things public." Is this one of "most" things, or one of the exceptions? :p ;) --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 06:21, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * You're the first person to ask me about it on the wiki. I haven't spoken to anyone at ANet yet so I only have some hearsay from Gravewit.  I'll find out what they want sometime during the week.  --Fyren 06:39, 5 February 2007 (CST)

Names policy
Do we have a Username policy except for not being vulger/rasial/sexual ? I am asking because I do't think a usernames like this should be aloud User:Guild Wars or GW, NCsoft, Anet, or similar especially since this is "a wiki guide and official Specialty Fansite for ArenaNet's Competitive Online RPG, Guild Wars". I think it could create some confusion regarding official statements.--Phoenix 20:27, 30 January 2007 (CST)


 * There is technically no policy at all on usernames. Bring it up on the policy talk page or draft one if you want. --Fyren 20:29, 30 January 2007 (CST)


 * Only regulate that which needs regulation. If the issue ever becomes a problem, I am sure Gares will draft all the necessary legal paperwork. :P --Karlos 20:38, 30 January 2007 (CST)

Archive
You should archive this talk page. --Phoenix 20:27, 30 January 2007 (CST)
 * Its clippy! &mdash; Skuld 17:23, 31 January 2007 (CST)
 * If by "clippy" you mean "It's 176 kilobytes long, and it's about to crash my browser!" then yes, I agree wholeheartedly. --Zerris-[[Image:ZerrisSig.jpg]] (talk) 23:47, 1 March 2007 (CST)

You are a retard!

 * He did not accuse you of that. He said not to create other user accounts.  You created a user page and a talk page for User:Galaxy Of Elements - however, there is no user on this site with that username.  The content of that page was insulting and asked users to PM that user in-game.  Fyren deleted the page, then told you not to do it again. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 20:45, 31 January 2007 (CST)
 * and then you delete your post to which I was replying. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 23:51, 31 January 2007 (CST)

skill description attribute range
I have done the majority of skill updates in the February 2. update, and I noticed most other people who contributed mixed up the ANet 0..15 and GWiki 0..12 attribute ranges in the skill templates or were just too lazy to get it right. Is the attribute range policy official or just unwritten consensus/common knowledge? I could find it neither on Style and formatting/Skills nor on Skill templates nor their respective talk pages. If it's not official policy, it should become that. --Roland of Gilead (talk) 23:59, 1 February 2007 (CST)
 * Hmm. We've always used 0...12.  We picked that because it's what shows when you mouseover skills in the target monitor and when unlocking skills.  This was before ANet ever stated a range in their patch notes.  It's always been enforced but I suppose it hasn't been explicitly stated on the template page.  I'll edit it in a minute.  --Fyren 00:01, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * Great! I've seen several user page entries that state that this piece of info should be displayed somewhere prominently, and I also think having it on a policy page is important but might ultimately not reach the majority of contributors. I would argue for putting it right into the Template:skill box as a comment; or maybe you have a better idea? --[[Image:Roland_icon.png]]Roland of Gilead (talk) 00:16, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * There's not really any way to show it besides putting the comment in every skill data template. --Fyren 00:17, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * Ugly choice -_- -- Xeon 00:29, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * I'd recommend we put it in the Style & Formatting page for skills. That would be the first place outside the templates themselves that I'd look for the info. --Zampani 01:57, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * I thought this weekend was another testing weekend? - Greven 03:00, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * No, the changes are permanent, with "minor changes coming via small updates". Entropy 03:03, 2 February 2007 (CST)

101
This is now the 101th heading in your Talk page, Fyren. It's 140kb! Time for an archive! :) Entropy 03:58, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * 101rd? --Fyren 04:01, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * Hmm, apparently the correct term is actually 101st. I never count that high in cardinal numbers though... Entropy 04:03, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * "rd" is for 3rd no? 1st, 2nd and 3rd? This is what my english teacher said.. &mdash; <font color=#477391>Corsaire  [[image:Corsaire_Signature.gif]] 04:43, 2 February 2007 (CST)


 * You are correct, Corsaire :) <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 05:36, 2 February 2007 (CST)


 * (Edit conflict:)
 * Thanks.. (but still learning english, not a native language for me.. :p)
 * (and nothing important, but 101 is the telephone number for the local police in Belgium.. :D ) &mdash; <font color=#477391>Corsaire  [[image:Corsaire_Signature.gif]] 05:52, 2 February 2007 (CST)

A couple people have asked me why I'm almost always so serious on the wiki. I will let this section stand as evidence. --Fyren 05:48, 2 February 2007 (CST)


 * As you wish, use this as proof.. ;) &mdash; <font color=#477391>Corsaire  [[image:Corsaire_Signature.gif]] 05:52, 2 February 2007 (CST)

campaign four
Well, what's up with re-adding the link? It's about NF, not campaign four. :s –Ichigo724 21:52, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * Ugh, just skimmed through the article, it says "they'll be working on 2 campaigns at a time now that nightfall is out", but blah, not worth being on the C4 page imo >_> –Ichigo724 21:55, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * It says that they are "already working on 3 and 4." Look at the talk page.  --Fyren 22:01, 2 February 2007 (CST)

selective inclusion
is there a way to include only a portion of a source article into another one and then a different portion of the source article into another article, for instance Gain/Lose energy skills quick reference, can just the gain be taken for one article and the lose be taken for another article? -- Xeon 22:20, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * No. You'd have to split each out to a subpage or its own article and then include as you want.  There actually is an extension that lets you mark sections for inclusion, but I wouldn't want to install it for such limited use.  --Fyren 22:47, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * So...  wouldn't work? — Jyro X [[Image:Darkgrin.jpg]] 22:56, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * EDIT: I just tried  and that wouldn't work either. Maybe the syntax can't handle a name that long? — Jyro X [[Image:Darkgrin.jpg]] 22:56, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * Should be  -- Xeon 22:59, 2 February 2007 (CST)

build policy question
Hi, sorry to bother you with this but could you have a look at Build_talk:Team - Fireproof Eskimos? I have gotten 3 negative votes within an hour of the build being online, and an immediate Unfavoured tag. The reason for the votes, as far as they have been given, have been answered by me (by simply re-stating info from the build page). In any case, the 3 votes can not have been the result of testing, because there simply hasn't passed enough time to test it. I know that not every build can be tested and often a look at the skill bar can be enough info for an informed vote, but is an unformulated, negative vote valid even if the build has most probably not been tested and the build's not obviously worse than its original, favored build? --Roland of Gilead (talk) 19:32, 3 February 2007 (CST)
 * There are no requirements for voting. --Fyren 19:34, 3 February 2007 (CST)

Good catch!
Spoil Victor - I should know better than to wiki edit at late hours. Thank you for turning my cursed into hexed, as I wouldn't have caught it. :P Queen Schmuck 01:00, 5 February 2007 (CST)

User namespace
Hi Fyren, as the server admin with root access, do you have a way to tell (at least roughly) how much of the HD space of GuildWiki is occupied by the User: (not User talk:) namespace, and how much of the bandwidth? This question is of course related to Personal sites. I know the policy failed in discussion, but I'd still like to hear a confiormation from our server admin that the user namespace isn't becoming a server hog. Because it sure accounts for a consderable percentage of the Recent Changes. -- 02:38, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * It's pretty much a non-issue. People may edit their user pages a lot but no one actually looks at them much.  --Fyren 03:07, 5 February 2007 (CST)
 * Is that just a gut feeling, or can you back it up with hard numbers? --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 03:10, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * Without user level access to server, I can't tell, but I do know this from my admin experiance. Currently available small hard drives are still big (60+ GB).  I am guessing this site takes 30-35 GB tops (database, wiki, everything).  And I am guessing really high.  I am not sure of this server's configuration, but I assume it is running on something like a pair of RAID 1 mirrored 100 GB or so hard drives.  Storage space used should not be a problem.


 * Bandwidth used by those pages might turn to 8-12% of total, I am guessing. Anything more than 15% could be considered "high use", as those pages are not what 90% of the users here probably look at.


 * I have never run a wiki on a server I controlled before, so I may be off on the storage space numbers (depends how effecient the database is). This doesn't really answer Tetris L, and he make a good point (logged usage is only real way to know).  If you (anyone) have any questions about this, or anything else server related, just ask me.
 * -- Unemployed network admin Queen Schmuck 03:17, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * I guess it's very hard to find out precise or even rough numbers, because much of the space and bandwidth taken by the user namespace are taken by images on user pages, and those images aren't separate from non-user images. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 03:24, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * Very true. You would almost need to create a database of all images only linked from within user or talk pages, then check how many times those images were viewed (actual downloads, not counting cache checks).  Then take the image's size by the number of downloads, for every image, add them up, and then compare to total data sent during same time frame.  This would be a bot job, and probably not from within the wiki (shell script).  A shell script might be 2k or so, maybe at most 5k (if documented).
 * Once the program/script was written, it would take just seconds for it to find out the info you want, and then could auto-update a wiki page with a graph/table. Cron would be best, probably a daily or even weekly job.  Once you had this information in human form (graph/table), you could easily spot and act on any high end targets.  Say, for example, someone posting a full size graphic in a highly read talk page.
 * BTW, not really sure how my 2nd to last edit removed some lines from this page, as I just added to the end (after edit conflict I 2x prev page then edit again). I am tired (nearly 3am), so I might have accidentally dragged the mouse as I ctrl-v, might have -thought- I prev page 2x, who knows.  I fixed it though.  :P  Queen Schmuck 03:45, 5 February 2007 (CST)
 * Lucky you, I was about to slap you with a large trout, but then decided to give you the chance to fix the edit conflict yourself, which you did. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 04:12, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * You're forgetting one other thing: How about the images used on user pages that are not exclusive to user pages? Like skill images and profession icons. Those generate traffic, too! You would have to filter out all accesses to those images which come from user pages, but not those which come from other namespaces... OK, I'll stop here. :p --<font color="midnightblue">84-175 (talk) 04:27, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * I guess the bulk of those images are cached, and even if they aren't, they are rather small, so I'm not worried much about them. It's the large user-only images that I'm a little concerned about.
 * But really, I didn't think it through properly. It's near impossible to find out the numbers. And it's not worth the hassle. I still think we should reconsider Personal sites though, in a modified, less restrictive way. But some limits are necessary, IMO. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 04:42, 5 February 2007 (CST)
 * Skill icons, the profession icons, and armor galleries use so much more bandwidth than whatever images someone puts on their user page it's not even worth worrying about. --Fyren 05:45, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * "database of all images only linked from within user or talk pages"
 * 84, got it covered with "only". *grin*
 * This might be something to think about doing, as it's results might be surprising, and at least worth knowing (for people like me :P). Now if someone had a page that was nothing but normally used icons, only 100s of them, that could very well be a problem page.  The requests on Apache to fill in that page would hurt the server more than the bandwidth used.  Depends entirely on how Apache is configured.  I know at least this about the config (some stuff washed for various reasons):
 * Apache/2.X.XX (FreeBSD) PHP/5.X.X
 * Uptime 22.257 days (must have done an update Jan 13?)
 * The big problem with multiple (100s) of images on a single page (even when page itself has no text) is that every image creates another request queue on the webserver, which, with a few simultanious hits to that page, could -very shortly- DoS other users. With a few computers (very likely bots) constantly hitting you for multiple small images (even without a page linking them all), it would be like the server wasn't upgraded this winter.  That is the stuff I would have nightmares about.  Luckily, Apache can be tuned to throttle that sort of thing.
 * Is Webalizer installed on this server? Queen Schmuck 06:22, 5 February 2007 (CST)
 * We've got squid in front of apache. If a couple hundred hits a second were able to DoS us, we'd have been dead long ago.  There's not much reason to remove info that's in every GET request reply (and your remote uptime estimate is wrong, not that it's surprising).  --Fyren 07:58, 5 February 2007 (CST)
 * Completely understood. I was thinking an additional multiple 1000s of hits/sec, but don't think I worded it correctly.  I had also noticed the proxy, and the uptime could be from a different source, or completely wrong.  I'll chalk this one up to "don't wiki at late morning, and don't try to think technical past 2am".  I'll leave this be and head back to my corner now.  Queen Schmuck 15:22, 5 February 2007 (CST)

Experiencing lag
Just thought I'd drop a line and see if the tech heads that hit Fyrens talk space know why the wiki is running slow today?--  Vallen Frostweaver  15:43, 5 February 2007 (CST)
 * While I don't know much about how the guildwiki server is run, I'd hypothesize that there could be any of a number of things going on. High traffic, other processes taking up cpu time (backups and etc), local area feedback causing lower network latency (read: slower connection to the ISP), some other process (File download or something) using up bandwidth from/to the server also, just for kicks have a look at   Lojiin 16:08, 5 February 2007 (CST)
 * Our end is fine. Probably a network problem somewhere between us.  --Fyren 04:44, 6 February 2007 (CST)
 * Well, lag is gone. I was jumping the gun I guess.  Next time I'll wait until I experiance it 2 days in a row rather than 1.  Thanks.--[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  07:41, 6 February 2007 (CST)
 * I take that back, it never went away more than a few clicks worth then was back. I'll wait it out as you suggest.  For all I know the HD is being defragged... :p --[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  15:32, 6 February 2007 (CST)
 * Hmmm...it seems to have been slow for a few days now. However, it was running well for me at 2:00AM today.  I wonder if it might be due to a lot of people logging on after the last major update.&mdash; [[Image:Azroth sig.png||builds]] <font color=#408090>Azroth  [[Image:Azroth sig2.png||talk]]  16:21, 6 February 2007 (CST)
 * Fyren has server acess and if he says that there is no problem on the wiki servers then there is no problem on the wiki servers. It must be the connection to the ISP. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 16:30, 6 February 2007 (CST)
 * So... there's no fix? This isn't a narrowed problem affecting only a few people, I hear random people complaining in Local chat about how laggy GWiki is, and they certainly aren't all using the same ISP. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|||My Talk]] 18:17, 6 February 2007 (CST)
 * I seriously doubt a lot of people are using belgacom, and I'm lagging, so yeah :P –Ichigo724 18:26, 6 February 2007 (CST)

Just to note for those who don't notice such things. There was an attack on the top level servers that affected, among other things, the servers responsible for DNS for the .org TLD (Top level domain). See [] Lojiin 19:49, 6 February 2007 (CST)

Also for the record, we're not running Windows servers, so we don't defrag hard drives. :) &mdash;Tanaric 20:33, 6 February 2007 (CST)

Image - On Rollover Content
Can you take a look at GuildWiki_talk:Community_Portal and add any comments that you may have? I need someone with more technical knowledge of MediaWiki to look at it, to ensure that I'm not mis-stating anything over there. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 15:42, 6 February 2007 (CST)

Mirrored Guild Wiki
I have a suggestion that may allow such features as the gwBBcode (rollover content for things such as skills/items) to be implimented without affecting site bandwith. I own the gameinspire.com domain and would be willing to contribute my bandwith for a subdomain like gw.gameinspire.com that could even act as an exact mirror of gw.gamewikis.org and lighten the load for all aspects of the site.

It could at least hold a database of skills/items from here that would feed the rollover content.

What do you think? --Muzikmon 20:05, 6 February 2007 (CST)
 * FYI: This is in relation to the subject above - on rollover messages for images. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 20:34, 6 February 2007 (CST)


 * Also FYI: I've responded on my talk page. &mdash;Tanaric 20:45, 6 February 2007 (CST)

Adopt new licensing?
Thanks for licensing read Fyren, saves a bit of research I'm sure many of us would've done. So any thoughts on GuildWiki being able to adopt the GNUFDL for all future contributions? I know a vast majority of current content couldn't be relicensed as such, but something to the effect of "all contributions made after XX February 2007 are considered to be released under the GNUFDL". I realize this won't help us with the huge amount of info already out there, but it would improve the morale of current users concerned about the duplication of effort from here on out. --Zampani 11:52, 7 February 2007 (CST)
 * The main problem with that I mention there, actually. We wouldn't be able to mix content from before and after the new "epoch" since it couldn't be available under both licenses.  We'd have all our old stuff but then for the purposes of any editing, it wouldn't exist.  --Fyren 18:14, 7 February 2007 (CST)
 * Thanks for the clarification... legalese makes my head spin. --Zampani 18:31, 7 February 2007 (CST)

MW upgrade
MW 1.9.2 http://svn.wikimedia.org/svnroot/mediawiki/tags/REL1_9_2/phase3/RELEASE-NOTES don't know if the bugs described affect GuildWiki enough to cause an upgrade or not. It's up to you. --Phoenix 20:22, 7 February 2007 (CST)

Policy
That's what some people are trying to get done, namely Trevor. I'd like to help him out now while policy is being formed, if we can get enough people from #gwp to not act like retards we may be in business. --Thom Bangalter 00:24, 8 February 2007 (CST)

OblivioWiki not a Specialty GW Fansite
Heya Fyren, I just noticed that the OblivioWiki site has the "Specialty Guild Wars Fansite" emblem on the left sidebar. I'm not sure how to remove it, so could you remove that for us? Thanks, -- theSpectator talk 00:36, 8 February 2007 (CST)
 * Ha. Oops.  --Fyren 00:38, 8 February 2007 (CST)
 * Heh, got your message; thanks again Fyren. BTW, also read your licensing article and it's a good simple read regarding the whole licensing issue. After getting back into GW recently, I just found out today (from the GWGuru forums) that ANet has started it's own wiki to one day integrate their games into it. Although that sounds nice/cool, ANet hosting a wiki seems like a corporate-business/hidden-motive thing to me, but that's just my personal opinion. I won't be visiting or contributing there, as I have no need and all the info I need is here. Keep it up! -- theSpectator talk 00:51, 8 February 2007 (CST)

Voodoo
Is that some kind of special server access voodoo that allowed you to work out that Peeta pan was the same guy as the anon? Or was it something else? On an unrelated note, I'd love to have a chat with you about the new wiki. --Xasxas256 04:59, 9 February 2007 (CST)
 * Voodoo. Post here.  Or there.  --Fyren 05:22, 9 February 2007 (CST)

User:193.123.228.22 ban
Hi Fyren, you banned User:193.123.228.22 for "vandalism". This seems too harsh to me. Looking at his edits, it was most likely User:Jupsto himself, making normal edits to his own user page. He simply forgot to log it. If you agree, I'll lift the block and leave a note on this talk page reminding him to log in when he makes edits in the user namespace. -- 06:21, 9 February 2007 (CST)
 * Look at the deletion log. --Fyren 06:25, 9 February 2007 (CST)

User 213.226.78.172
Do you have a mass revert type button? The user is adding a farming vid link to a number of Elonian boss pages which don't belong there. Lojiin 18:20, 12 February 2007 (CST)
 * Reverted and left a note for anon to only post the link in the relevant build article, not to spam it on all boss pages. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 18:34, 12 February 2007 (CST)

Question
I can´t figure out how to write you a mail so I just write it here. I noticed that you took my link away with a movie clip farming the deathbrinker and 22 other nightfall bosses. Can I somehow put it up somewhere in the guildwarswiki homepage with permission?

Sorry for write this here but I´m new to this site.

/Anthony


 * First, we're "GuildWiki." Second, as Barek has said, if you have images or movies related to farming, write up a build and stick them in there somewhere.  --Fyren 23:22, 12 February 2007 (CST)
 * I quickly glanced at said movie, and it seems to be related to Build:A/E Solo Green Farmer. If that's the case, then you should post it there with the other video link. --Zampani 00:41, 13 February 2007 (CST)
 * Or Build:E/A Solo Green Farmer, perhaps? &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 04:49, 13 February 2007 (CST)

Thanks a lot =)

P.S. Look at http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Health Under "Skills that cause "health gain" (or steal health)" you have forgotten to write Vigorous Spirit

Best regards, Anthony


 * Health gain is not the same as healing. --Fyren 21:25, 13 February 2007 (CST)

Question About Deleted Post
I noticed that you deleted my post about guild hosting. Is there a more appropriate place to place information that would help a guild leader learn where he can get different types of guild hosting. My intention was to share the typical features that they can look for and a few guild hosting services and let people at the services that they use. The reason I pushed guild launch is because I know from personal experience that they support Guild Wars where many popular services are World of Warcraft focused like mmoguildsites.com, wowhosting.com and rupture.

- Thanks... Joshua


 * We have very few pages that are about things external to the game. I don't really think the info fits anywhere, but I'll bring it up on Talk:Guild.  Check back there later to see if anyone has something to say.  --Fyren 10:03, 13 February 2007 (CST)

Thanks I appreciate it. I think that guild leaders would find this information useful. - Joshua

Sorry

 * No. Figure out your own problems.  Don't bring them here.  --Fyren 00:16, 14 February 2007 (CST)
 * Ignore list –Ichigo724[[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 07:19, 14 February 2007 (CST)


 * Hey Fyren, I've been having problems with one of my neighbours. Could you give him a call and try sorting it out? Thanks. ;) <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 19:03, 14 February 2007 (CST)


 * Same user as User:NecroNecro? (See deletion and ban log from Feb 13th) --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 19:09, 14 February 2007 (CST)


 * Hello Dr. Fyren, love your work. You seem like a pretty switched on kinda guy, can you give me some dating advise for someone who's Valentine's Day didn't go as planned? Thanks, Hot Aussie Guy. --Xasxas256 22:30, 14 February 2007 (CST)

Re: question about deleted post
Any word about posting Guild Hosting information? I checked the section that you listed but I have not seen any aggreements or objections. My orginal intention was just to post a few options for guild hosting. But now that I think about I see a greater opportunity for us to potentialy work together.

I would really like to offer your community free guild hosting from www.guildlaunch.com I am a multi game gamer and have lead guilds across many games as well. We have really wanted to build up our guild wars guilds so we can start building Guild War specific applications but we do not have the volume we need to start recieving the game specific feedback we need.

I am sure I can work out some sort of link / banner exchange back to your site. Like potentialy adding GuildWiki as a default link for resource sites for GuildWars Guilfs. I saw that you were also going to do a wiki for Warhammer... which I personally can't wait for... we could work something out there as well

I am open to any of your suggestions... I will check back here for your reply.

Can I...
add a temporary redirect for the ex page Not a fifty five/experimental build? A lot of people are using a link that no longer exists, I was just wondering if I could add a redirect to the page's new location just for a few days Not a fifty five 10:13, 20 February 2007 (CST) got the page to a forums now Not a fifty five 21:42, 21 February 2007 (CST)

Are you..
An admin? Just wondering. -- SigmA 13:52, 20 February 2007 (CST)


 * You are joking, aren't you Sigm@? Please say so... >.> [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 13:57, 20 February 2007 (CST)


 * Administrators --Kalomeli [[Image:Heart-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 14:04, 20 February 2007 (CST)
 * See also Special:Listusers/sysop. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 14:12, 20 February 2007 (CST)

Whats a sysop? -- SigmA 14:15, 20 February 2007 (CST)
 * On GuildWiki, there are four types of access rights. Standard users, Sysops, Bureaucrats, and Bots.  A standard user is, well, almost everyone on the site.  A Sysop has the access normally called "admin" on GuildWiki.  A Bureaucrat has the added ability to promote/demote user access levels (ie: assign and demote admins).  A Bot is a special category for a program designed to perform automated tasks on GuildWiki. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 14:22, 20 February 2007 (CST)

Alright, but why don't you use the word admin iso sysop? (yes I'm bored). -- SigmA 14:25, 20 February 2007 (CST) No, ps archive your userpage, it's getting a bit long the scrolling down.. -- SigmA 14:03, 20 February 2007 (CST)


 * Fyren works to keep the wiki running smoothly. errr what are you then? -- SigmA 14:06, 20 February 2007 (CST)

Fyren doesn't like archiving. (T/C) 14:07, 20 February 2007 (CST)

OOOoOO I call bot :) (Not a fifty five 15:03, 20 February 2007 (CST))
 * That'd be User:Fyrenbot. --Fyren 16:38, 20 February 2007 (CST)

Vandalism Block
Please explain deeper then "vandalism" this is my ip i use not realising i was logged in but i have committed no such vandalism. See below.

22:59, 20 February 2007 Fyren (Talk | contribs) blocked "69.248.175.25 (contribs)" with an expiry time of 3 days (vandalism)

If you can please tell me what i have "vandalized" please do so because i did no such thing. - Chrisworld 17:17, 20 February 2007 (CST)
 * My mistake. Thought you made one of the two pages the other anonymous user actually made.  --Fyren 17:21, 20 February 2007 (CST)

Lol oh i see, no i didnt make them pages, i was mad at that person because he was being stupid. Lol i dont make pages that are pointless at the risk of being blocked because im smarter that that - Chrisworld 17:25, 20 February 2007 (CST)

Re: Aftercast delay
I didn't make the original edit to add 1.25 seconds but I cited the source on the talk page. Can you have a look at it? I don't know that it necessarily merits inclusion but it did have a basis. Lojiin 16:05, 21 February 2007 (CST)

Admin stuff ?
Don't know where to put this, but I would like an admin to know about this (oops, how do I make this an internal link?) - Jill Bioskop X 20:55, 21 February 2007 (CST)
 * I see Theeth already made him a candidate for blocking for an earlier offense, but he keeps on doing it. - Jill Bioskop X 21:21, 21 February 2007 (CST)

Thanks
I'm sorry about that. You may think organising a contest of "impossible builds" ;-) --Ttibot 16:51, 22 February 2007 (CST)

questionable posts
Fyren, do you have access to view IP addresses (or would LordBiro)?

Build:W/Mo Vigorous Essence‎ was created by an anon (User:71.49.92.27 - who has been warned today for possibly unrelated GW:NPA actions), and within minutes multiple votes came in from User:Swiftstrike450, User:Ginkmaster_romp, User:GuildMaster44, and User:Darkflesh Assassin, most of whom had no other posting history.

There's a chance that it's a group of guild members collaborating; but it appears suspicious enough to me to warrant verifying the posts came from different IP addresses. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 19:15, 23 February 2007 (CST)


 * Same person. Banned.  --Fyren 19:52, 23 February 2007 (CST)

Capture Locations
Is there a wiki policy about not listing special circumstances for capture on the skill page? This is in reference to the removal of the Land of Heroes note on Vow of Strength. I personally think it would be helpful, just wondering of there was an official policy/stance on this issue. -- (talk) 01:07, 25 February 2007 (CST)
 * It's been discussed a few times on the skills S&F talk, once recently. The info's on the boss articles (as well as actual maps to the boss) and I don't like putting information in multiple places if it can be helped.  The name and zone are in the skills; so you know if you've been to the area and can bother clicking on the boss to get a map, in my view.  --Fyren 01:15, 25 February 2007 (CST)
 * Ok, I can see that. and thanks for the quick response. --[[image:Hrothgarsignature.jpg|100px]] (talk) 01:17, 25 February 2007 (CST)
 * If you really think it should be there, say so over on the style and formatting page. --Fyren 01:20, 25 February 2007 (CST)

User:Ben kurdziel
On the Build:D/any Balthazar's Servant, the author, Ben kurdziel, blanked a legitimate unfavored vote because he disliked the premise for the vote. The major infraction which he may have committed is sock-puppetry by voting for his build under the user name: Vhang the Reaper who had 7 posts all relating to the build in question. Since the alleged sock-puppet had edited the build quite a bit, I struck his vote because according to GW:Vetting any person who significantly edits a build cannot vote. However, since I cannot actually check ISP addresses, I figured I would leave a message on your talk page so that if it was in fact a sock-puppet, appropriate measures could be taken. <font color="DodgerBlue">Defiant Elements (talk ~ contribs)
 * Ah, so we were right. <font color="DodgerBlue">Defiant Elements (talk ~ contribs)

Possible Vandalism
On three separate occasions, User:70.103.20.205 vandalized the Style and formatting/Builds. However, it looks like the anon may have thought that the page was supposed to be edited to create a new build, since, the vandalism looks like he/she was trying to create a build. I reverted all three incidents of vandalism, but I wasn’t sure how to proceed so I figured I would let an admin deal with it. <font color="DodgerBlue">Defiant Elements (talk ~ contribs)
 * You can use his talk page to leave a message. --Fyren 19:27, 25 February 2007 (CST)
 * Already did so. The reason I posted here is that after I posted the message, he vandilized the page a third time.  On an unrelated note, how can you stand typing on your user page?  It is huge which also means that it is that writing on it is incredible slow!  <font color="DodgerBlue">Defiant Elements  (talk ~ contribs)
 * I pretty much only use diffs when looking at any talk page, heh. --Fyren 19:32, 25 February 2007 (CST)

I Hate You
I hate you Fyren bacause you are supposed to help others, not being a lazy ass. HELP OTHERS, GOD DAMMIT! &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Coolritualist (talk &bull; contribs) 17:28, February 27, 2007 (CST).
 * What are you wanting help on? The only thing I can see in your edit history is this link, which is outside of GuildWiki's control. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 17:31, 27 February 2007 (CST)
 * Yeah and telling an admin he's a jerk is really going to get him to help you. (Not a fifty five 18:14, 27 February 2007 (CST))

Srry
I'm sorry as I said, and the apology is on my page. Anyways, anyone know how to get a wikistress meter? &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Coolritualist (talk &bull; contribs) 17:33, March 1, 2007 (CST).
 * Note: While reverting blanking of other comments, I erroneously removed the above post. I've restored it - sorry about catching it in the cleanup. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 17:39, 1 March 2007 (CST)


 * Find someone's user page with one and click edit on it. Look through the code to see what they did and then copy and paste it to your page.  They're probably either images or templates.  --Fyren 18:03, 1 March 2007 (CST)

"User" article
Humm, why delete it? It makes linking easier. Not many would think to look for Special:Listusers. And I find it impossible to refer to the userlist in my templates unless the redirect is there... (T/C) 23:22, 1 March 2007 (CST)
 * It doesn't make linking easier. Why would it be impossible to link to it?  --Fyren 23:59, 1 March 2007 (CST)
 * Because I do this:




 * ...to wikify the first and only the first mention of the argument. Imputting User does not work because the template treats the "|" as a deliminator and counts the Special:Listusrers and User as separate arguments. Making it a regular html link with single [ and ]'s doesn't work either, since then you end up with a triple [ ] which is meaningless in Wikicode. So unless there's some more magical commands that I'm not aware of, the only way to get the thing to work is with the straight, single argument User redirect article.


 * Moreover though, I'm not sure I see the point of the deletion still - it is not like it is a harmless or misleading article? [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 00:09, 2 March 2007 (CST)


 * It's about the wiki and not Guild Wars. Link to it doing either   or []  .  --Fyren 00:14, 2 March 2007 (CST)


 * Well okay, maybe my coding skills phail, but I'm still getting [[ User ]] if I do plainlinks. Am I missing something? [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 01:30, 2 March 2007 (CST)


 * If you want to use a pipe inside of an argument or parser function, use | . I really had no idea what you were having trouble with.  If it's just the pipe, use the normal double brackets for internal links with that.  --Fyren 03:42, 2 March 2007 (CST)


 * Thanks, that works just fine. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 14:01, 2 March 2007 (CST)

Contributions
Is there an easy way to tally up the exact number of contributions that a user has? <font color="DodgerBlue">Defiant Elements (talk ~ contribs)
 * You can go to their contributions page, set it to 500 contributions per page, and count the number of pages (and then the exact number on the last page if you want). That's about it.  --Fyren 18:51, 2 March 2007 (CST)

User:24.7.93.218
The last four or so edits by this user have been vandilism, so I thought I would point it out. <font color="DodgerBlue">Defiant Elements (talk ~ contribs)

Elitemaster
Yeh, he is kind of aggressive to almost everyone and he deleted my votes twice! I think you or some other admin should leave a note on his talk page about his behaviour. -- SigmA 05:36, 3 March 2007 (CST)
 * cough* permaban *cough*


 * I banned him for 3 days as it's his first ban. If he comes back guns a blazin' he'll get the boot. --Karlos 06:26, 3 March 2007 (CST)

P.s PLEASE archive your talk page 136 Oo...-- SigmA 06:30, 3 March 2007 (CST)

"This page is 180 kilobites long" ooOOoo (Not a fifty five 06:44, 3 March 2007 (CST))

24.71.223.142
Would you check this guy out please? He has a history of disrupting the wiki, I've tried to assist him in his edits, I've told him to stop. Maybe block, at least rollback edits? Thanks in advance. - Krowman (talk • contribs)  20:39, 4 March 2007 (CST)
 * Need block. &mdash;[[Image:BlastThatT.jpg]]Blastedt 20:40, 4 March 2007 (CST)

IP check
When you get the time, can you check the voters' IPs here? Check that Rainith guy too while your at it. ;) &mdash; Gares 22:09, 5 March 2007 (CST)
 * They're probably friends/guildmates who just decided to get it vetted. --Fyren 00:46, 6 March 2007 (CST)

HELP!
How do u get to Raisu Palace in Factions? ~Coolritualist

Team - 6 Man Deep Team
Could you check the IP addresses of the first two voters? Both seem suspicious. If they aren't sockpuppets, please inform NightAngel and myself so we can remove the placeholders we used to prevent a build from being favored by possible sockpuppets. <font color="DodgerBlue">Defiant Elements (talk ~ contribs)
 * You realize they weren't logged in. --Fyren 20:15, 8 March 2007 (CST)
 * I meant check those IP addresses vs. the IP of the author. <font color="DodgerBlue">Defiant Elements (talk ~ contribs)
 * V has never posted under his IP and, to support Fyren, none of those anon are in his IP range. I'll inform NightAngel as his vote is still in play. &mdash; Gares 11:25, 9 March 2007 (CST)

Once again with the email...
Sorry to bother you with this again, but my email's being stupid again and I don't know where else to turn... Whenever I tell one wiki to send me notification emails, it seems to disable them for the other wikis. Is this a bug, a mediawiki thing, or something I'm doing wrong?

Thanks again... --Armond Warblade (talk) 09:30, 9 March 2007 (CST)
 * Your preferences are actually the same across all wikis. You can't turn on notifications on one and not another.  The way Gravewit set it up to share user data/accounts across wikis was kind of a quick hack and there isn't a very good way of doing it.  Another problem is some of the user info is cached on GuildWiki, so if you change it on another wiki it may not be changed here right away.  --Fyren 09:59, 9 March 2007 (CST)


 * That sounds handy, actually, but it doesn't quite solve my problem. I've tried turning it on on every wiki (each wiki has the "send me notifications if..." box checked), but only DnDWiki is sending me emails. They're still checked after I reset my settings, too (just thought to try that, maybe it'll work...) --Armond Warblade (talk) 17:47, 9 March 2007 (CST)


 * I think when you said "other wikis" Fyren presumed you meant other wikis that are part of . <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 19:19, 9 March 2007 (CST)


 * Oh. Specifically, I meant Wikipedia and DnDWiki, if that helps. --Armond Warblade (talk) 21:23, 9 March 2007 (CST)


 * Those two problems can't be related. Ask admins there.  --Fyren 21:40, 9 March 2007 (CST)


 * As Fyren said, Wikipedia and DnDWiki preference shouldn't have anything to do with your GWiki settings. DnDWiki is down at the moment, that could be a problem though! --Xasxas256 21:49, 9 March 2007 (CST)


 * No, no, once again I'm forgetting how to make links. >.> I'll take it up with some people there, thanks anyway... --Armond Warblade (talk) 12:20, 11 March 2007 (CDT)

Ban
Erm... 24.19.33.209 is currently screwing around with the henchmen pages... Capcom 22:29, 9 March 2007 (CST)

I saw you fixed Lina's page. Gehraz has been vandaled, too. 132.203.83.38 22:37, 9 March 2007 (CST)

Socks galore
Can you take a look into that, if you have time? I guarantee there's some foul play going on with those votes, I just don't know how much. -Auron  00:42, 11 March 2007 (CST)
 * <3 Fyren. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|||My Talk]] 01:14, 11 March 2007 (CST)

Looks like it wasn't enough, take another look. -- Nova   --  (contribs) 19:42, 15 March 2007 (CDT)

ban
85.228.104.177 blanked pages, could you do something about it? --<font color=#2a7510>Sig <font color=#d8be01>mA   09:11, 11 March 2007 (CDT)

Thanx for helpin with the table
hi Fyren, i just wanted to know a bit more about the wiki editing so i created the wreckon page. thanx for helping out with the table too. :D

greets peter

hi Fyren, i just wanted to thank u for showing me what i made wrong. i want to ask u if u can allow me to edit my page because i cant atm. thx breaker User:Breaker

Inter-wiki linking...
For the benefit of the other wiki, how is inter-wiki linking enabled? Like "this Shout is a reference to the movie Airplane! ." Thanks. --Karlos 20:29, 16 March 2007 (CDT)


 * You need a server admin to add things to the interwiki table in the database. --Fyren 20:30, 16 March 2007 (CDT)


 * I know, I mean what WOULD the admin need to do, I wanna give them the steps as well in case they agree to include it. If it's some top secret thing, then PM me. I'm busy farming hapless level 2 critters for Clovers :P --Karlos 21:07, 16 March 2007 (CDT)


 * It's not a secret but it's in the documentation on both mediawiki.org and meta.wikimedia.org, so I kind of want to tell you to RTFM. --Fyren 21:52, 16 March 2007 (CDT)