User talk:Stabbot/Skillboxes

The vote on Skill Box might take quite a while, but I really want to have it ready for the preview event. If I may be so presumptuous, right now it looks like no matter how the votes go, one of my proposals is going to win. It'll be quite a crusade to manually convert all the old skill boxes into new ones, so I was wondering if you can make Stabbot do it? All my proposals have extremely similar looking syntax, so you would only need to make minor adjustment depending on which proposal wins out. The only info I don't think is always farmable from the skill page is the campaign info, which you can just put "Unknown" and that can be manually entered later (though you probalby have a way to automate the campaign part anyways).

There are a few skill pages that uses my newer skill box instead of the old skill template, don't worry about those, they are way too few in number that I can handle them manually. Just want a bot that converts articles using the ancient skill info boxes into the new one. Thanks! - User:PanSola = 24.7.179.183 20:04, 17 March 2006 (CST)


 * No problem at all. What I'll need from you is an example of a source page with the old skillbox and a target page with the new skillbox to experiment on first. I haven't been following the skillbox debate, unfortunately, so if you can point me to suitable example pages, that would be great. &mdash; Stabber 20:06, 17 March 2006 (CST)


 * Example of old skill boxes here. It's an overly modularized set of templates, and skills with different stat fields use different sub-templates (Template:Skill_energy_entry, Template:Skill_sacrifice_entry etc).
 * Example of hybrid syntax User:PanSola/Skill chart test#Hybrid Syntax|here, including one example of an elite skill and one example of a non-elite skill. You can also look at User:PanSola/Skill chart test#The Hybrd articles| these for various cases (skills that have sacrifice, exhausion, or uses adrenaline).  Let me know if you have any questions. -24.7.179.183 13:00, 19 March 2006 (CST)


 * OK, taking a look. At first glance, it appears not as trivial as I first thought. However, it isn't rocket science. Give me a while to hack something together. &mdash; Stabber 13:26, 19 March 2006 (CST)


 * Why do skill pages such as Elemental Attunement already have &lt;includeonly&gt; sections? Should I strip them during the conversion? &mdash; Stabber 16:27, 19 March 2006 (CST)
 * I believe I can answer that. Some time ago, there were two people (whose names escape me, and I only know this from something I read) who were working on a way to only change the skill pages instead of the skill pages *and* the quick reference pages which used the includeonly/noinclude tags for that purpose.  Unfortunately, I suppose, they modified the actual skill pages as they went instead of creating test pages and copying.  Further, they still had the redundant information problem, although PanSola has a way around that particular annoyance now. - Greven 17:04, 19 March 2006 (CST)


 * I found out as much and more in my research already. The people you are referring to are Cloak of Letters and Fyren. Also, the most important piece of information is that these skill pages are not included in any other pages any more. Therefore, I am going to strip the includeonly sections in them when I update the skillboxes. &mdash; Stabber 17:14, 19 March 2006 (CST)

Progress report: I am able to take a page such as User:Stabbot/Elemental Attunement (source) and automatically rewrite it to User:Stabbot/Elemental Attunement (target). Is this roughly what you want me to do, PanSola? &mdash; Stabber 19:38, 19 March 2006 (CST)
 * I hope you noticed the vertical bars aren't in the right place... Specifically, after the template call, vertical bars are needed. Specifically, "{{../Skill box portrait |" and "{{../Skill box landscape v5 |", you were leaving the bars out.
 * ps. if you don't mind, use Skill box portrait6 for now. My money is on it winning. -SolaPan 19:48, 19 March 2006 (CST)


 * Hmm, but the bars are there at the start of the very next line, right? Does it matter which end of the line the bars are in? They are conceptually at least in the right place, I thought? &mdash; Stabber 19:49, 19 March 2006 (CST)
 * Not when you are starting a template.

{{TestTemplate| blah = yah}} vs {{TestTemplate
 * blah = yah}}
 * Only the first one will work. -SolaPan 19:52, 19 March 2006 (CST)
 * Lower case B, "Skill box portrait6" not "Skill Box portrait6" d-: And lower b for landscape too -SolaPan 19:54, 19 March 2006 (CST)

Finer Details
Energy/Adrenaline should always use stat/val1, Activation should always use stat/val2, Recharage always stat/val3. stat/val0 is reserved for Exhaustion, Upkeep, Sacrifice etc. -SolaPan 20:03, 19 March 2006 (CST)


 * OK, will make this change. Two further questions.


 * 1) What "attribute" parameter is used for non-attributed skills?
 * 2) What to do about pages like Troll Unguent that have a non-standard skill box template?
 * &mdash; Stabber 20:08, 19 March 2006 (CST)
 * I suggest using "No Attribute" as the in-game skill menu use that term. How is Troll Unguent being non-standard?  I can't figure it out at first glance. -SolaPan 20:13, 19 March 2006 (CST)
 * What I mean is that the source page uses something weird to get the profession instead of using Template:Skill_profession_entry. &mdash; Stabber 20:16, 19 March 2006 (CST)
 * Ah, didn't notice it. I say print it out as "User:Stabbot/Unparsable", later we can check Special:Whatlinkshere/User:Stabbot/Unparsable and fix all the articles manually. -SolaPan 20:21, 19 March 2006 (CST)

No Attribute skills
For the non-attributed skills, I am able to know that it is non-attributed, so I don't need to depend on the template to do something sensible. Why not have the template take:

attribute = Air Magic

instead of

attribute = Air Magic

? Then I can just say:

attribute = No Attribute

and it will show up as unlinked. &mdash; Stabber 20:29, 19 March 2006 (CST)
 * Well, I just created the No Attribute article (technically a redirect). I think it should be linked.  I would like to avoid square brackets in the template syntax as much as possible.  Thinking from the user perspective. -SolaPan 20:46, 19 March 2006 (CST)

Move templates from your user space?
Why not move portrait6 and landscape v5 (the frontrunners) to Template:Skill box portrait and Template:Skill box landscape? Then, whatever the outcome of the discussion, we can just change the global template instead of having to re-edit every skill page. &mdash; Stabber 20:30, 19 March 2006 (CST)

Automatic detection of elites
Currently, some source pages such as Elemental Attunement have the "elite" flag as part of their skillbox, which I am able to parse, whereas others such as Unyielding Aura have it as part of the description in a haphazard manner, which I am not able to parse. Indeed, User:Stabbot/Unyielding Aura (target) shows it as a non-elite skill. We will have to do a manual pass over the elite skills afterwards to fix these discrepancies. &mdash; Stabber 20:48, 19 March 2006 (CST)
 * Can you do a OR with a categorial parse? I know description might be non-standard, and where the cagetory shows up in the article's raw code is also non-standard, but you might still be able to pattern match the string  and  (there may or may not be space after colons). -SolaPan 20:52, 19 March 2006 (CST)
 * Ah, good idea. That's probably far more reliable than the skillbox. Making this change now. &mdash; Stabber 20:54, 19 March 2006 (CST)

Time for a trial run?
I'm going to try running the bot on some of the monk skills, as they seem the most civilized at the moment. Let me try the core monk skills first. &mdash; Stabber 21:07, 19 March 2006 (CST)
 * Um, make sure you don't change any of the actual skill articles (not sure if that's what you meant by trial run). Don't want to make the changes until the voting is done.  Skuld's thing still might win.-SolaPan 21:12, 19 March 2006 (CST)


 * Man, there is such a ridiculously high number of special cases. Whoever designed the initial skill box layout wasn't very careful to maintain consistency. It took me almost 2.5 hours to just to get it to pass the monk core skills in one run. Anyway, success. It should get easier from this point forward. &mdash; Stabber 23:30, 19 March 2006 (CST)

Adrenaline question
Currently, adrenaline skills mention both the number of strikes and the number of adrenaline points needed. The new templates require only the number of strikes. Should I simply discard the points information? &mdash; Stabber 03:15, 21 March 2006 (CST)


 * Points are there for skills such as Balthazar's Spirit and Berserker Stance and I know you recieve points, not strikes, when being damaged in battle. Strikes, to put it bluntly, are a way to dumb down the adrenaline system. Make it easier to understand, but the point system is actually what drives adrenaline, not the strikes. Hope this helps. --Gares Redstorm 03:34, 21 March 2006 (CST)


 * No, it doesn't. My question is about the format of skillboxes, not about the nature of adrenaline. &mdash; Stabber 03:36, 21 March 2006 (CST)


 * You asked if you should discard the points information? The points are apart of the nature of adrenaline. If you take out the points then basically you are depriving viewers of information and dumbing down the skill descriptions. --Gares Redstorm 03:45, 21 March 2006 (CST)


 * I am asking a question about the template, Gares, in order to better program my robot. Nothing more. This discussion is out of place. &mdash; Stabber 03:50, 21 March 2006 (CST)


 * I believe my words might have come off as terse to you. If so, I apologize. I figured a explanation would be better than to just state an opinion of "yes" or "no" to your original question. If it helps, I think the points information is useful and should not be discarded. That was all I was trying to get across. If you have been around online situations as long as I have, and I have a feeling you have been, then you know words can be taken in any context. If this is the case, I am sorry, Stabber.


 * Edit: True, you might be right that the presence or absense might not matter. I, myself, am a logical person. The less specific something is, the less I believe I learn from it. I cannot speak for a million or so Guild Wars account holders. That was just one man's opinion. --Gares Redstorm 04:14, 21 March 2006 (CST)


 * I think you are still reading too much into this question. I should perhaps have asked it on PanSola's userpage instead of here. It continues to be a question of what parameters to supply to his templates and/or whether a modification needs to be made to them. &mdash; Stabber 04:18, 21 March 2006 (CST)


 * Well, see, thats where are difficulties lied. You asked a "yes" or "no" question at the beginning. I was unaware of the fact that adrenaline points might interfere with PanSola's templates and that was the reason for the question. I gave my answer as no, do not get rid of the points, but if you believe there will be some conflict, then perhaps I should take a look and maybe I can offer the alternative you are looking for. That is, unless you are set on discarding the points. --Gares Redstorm 04:47, 21 March 2006 (CST)

Note: some skills such as Dismember do not list the points, so whatever strategy is suggested for these skills should be resilient enough to handle both the presence and the absence of points info. &mdash; Stabber 03:56, 21 March 2006 (CST)

Two Possibilities
One: discard the points info. The benefit is that the template doesn't need to jump through any more complicated hoops to get things right. The downside is that points info is lost. This is not a huge downside, as this info is recoverable from the Adrenaline info.

Two: create  parameters also and have them co-exist with. Only one of these groups will be present, so it should simply be a matter of putting both in a  with some   hackery.

I am leaning towards possibility one atm, but am willing to be pursuaded towards alternatives. &mdash; Stabber 04:24, 21 March 2006 (CST)
 * Sorry didn't notice this earlier. I vote for a modified version of one.  Put the points info in a notes section at the bottom of the article, outside the template.  Don't worry about if there is already another notes section.  Any guildwiki user can manually merge multiple notes section if it bothers them.  That's my opinion. -SolaPan 19:38, 21 March 2006 (CST)