Talk:General minion mastery guide

Archives of old discussion: /Archive 1

First two paragraphs
I imagine people come to find out how to build a mm, not to hear someone's opinion on nerfing - nerfing is irrelevant, and anyone who is new to mm won't remember the old builds. So, if no one objects, I'll delete the opening text a week from now, leaving the article to start with "Whereas only 8 members..." Alan Firehazard 12:27, 26 March 2007 (CDT)
 * I agree that the majority of the first paragraph is irrelevant. However, the second paragraph is a good introduction into the Quality vs. Quantity arguement that is vital for understanding the MM. I vote for editting the paragraphs into something more relevant and useful. Perhaps some sort of recommendation that the MM have a few backup builds, like Battery, SS/SV, Blood Degen, etc. Then either preclude or follow with "One of the defining Necro builds, Minion Masters are useful and important in party composition." Not all areas and missions are favorable to MMs, after all. BarGamer 13:34, 26 March 2007 (CDT)

Out of date information
I think that the information that is presented here is pretty close to up to date now. I vote that we remove the disclaimer. --Spot 12:36, 17 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Seconded. This looks accurate for the current (post-Factions) MM playstyle. --TheaLeonis 19:40, 27 May 2006 (CDT)

Golem Master
I would argue that Vampiric Gaze should be replaced by a ressurection skill of some sort. 4 skills for the first corpse seems excessive. --Spot 12:36, 17 May 2006 (CDT)

Flesh Golem
It says that if a second Flesh Golem is created while the first one is still active, it dies and leaves an exploited corpse. I've been playing a MM with Flesh Golem for a little while, and I'm pretty sure it leaves an exploitable corpse. --Spot 10:46, 17 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Nevermind, I went home and tested it. It does leave an exploited corpse if you create a second flesh golem while the first is still alive. --Spot 10:08, 18 May 2006 (CDT)

LEFT TODO

 * 1) pictures. need some pretty looking pictures. maybe a usefull picture, but mostly pretty ones
 * 2) ordering. flow is wrong, but i need to think about how to un-wrong-ify it.
 * 3) opposing tactics did that --Honorable Sarah 03:56, 25 March 2006 (CST)
 * 4) linkafactation. in progress, linking articles to this and this to others.
 * 5) con someone into uploading a prettier Animate_Bone_Horror.png
 * 6) expand the todo list, wait a minute...
 * 7) Factions. changes the new skills will make. maybe a factions-skills-only build. factions opens in... 11 hours give or take.


 * 1) delete this article, MMing is now pointless--Honorable Sarah 15:11, 26 April 2006 (CDT)
 * Deletion seems to be overturned (I still see Minion Maseters's all the time with modified builds, so it's not "pointless"), but in any case this article needs a major overhaul in terms of how to handle the changes. --AlexMax 22:10, 8 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Don't delete, they are still in the game. Hard modification needed thou. --Gem [[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png|Gem]] 04:11, 9 May 2006 (CDT)
 * MM is FAR from pointless, they just require more skill to play and aren't able to control as many minions. When I get around to getting my Necro through Factions if this page hasn't been updated I'll look at it then. Alxa 11:10, 9 May 2006 (CDT)
 * MM'ing was nerfed? If so then how was it before? It's still quite easy todo.


 * 1) In the Weapon section a link to Dmitri Scharkoff should be added after the page for this collector has been created, as he has the same Bleached Skull as Dai Waeng. --Perrsun 11:57, 22 July 2006 (CDT)

Serious restructuring
moved to archive --Honorable Sarah 22:35, 30 March 2006 (CST)

Blanking the talk page
i'm considering blanking the talk page while i rebuild the article. a lot of the comments in here will be irrelivant, if they are not already. does anyone see any need to keep this historical discussion?
 * I'd just archive it. -- 06:02, 24 March 2006 (CST)

Dark Bomber?
This is not a great title for this build - a Dark Bomber is typically a Dark Aura user, who engages in PBAoE attacking by sacrificing himself with skills like Touch of Agony; this is the build you will find if you search a build area on a major forum. Since the name is already in common use for another build I don't think it's really appropriate here.--Epinephrine 03:35, 25 March 2006 (CST)
 * Renamed Minion Bomber --Honorable Sarah 03:37, 25 March 2006 (CST)
 * Cool - also, you have two elite skills on the bar. --Epinephrine 03:41, 25 March 2006 (CST)
 * Fixed it... can you tell i don't play a bomber build? --Honorable Sarah 03:48, 25 March 2006 (CST)

15/-1 energy items
I'm a MM frequently, and arguably a good one. I typically use the dual +15 energy items and suffer the -2 pips when running MM, at least as a switch. Minions often begin dying quickly during combat, and your rate of energy gain can exceed the rate of spending it, even with 25 cost Fiends and Minions; The majority of a minion master's energy isn't coming from regeneration, not with 13-15 Soul Reaping - and since the majority of the energy is in fact coming from deaths, having a larger pool and a bigger buffer is handy. Swapping to the 4 pip gear between combats is fine, but once you get into a serious combat with lots of deaths there is little point in being limited to ~40 energy. --Epinephrine 03:35, 25 March 2006 (CST)
 * Tweaking the 15/-1 item block to reflect. --Honorable Sarah 03:38, 25 March 2006 (CST)
 * Oh yes, 15/-1 items are awesome! 03:39, 25 March 2006 (CST)

Minon Bomber
When i play as a minion master i almost always prefer to use a minion bomber build over all other minion master builds so believe me when i say i have lots of experience with the bomber build. i disagreed with the original use of energy stealing skils since the minion bomber almost always has plenty of energy to use when there are targets for energy steal still left. the only times i've ever had a problem with energy is after a fight when i'm trying to animate minions from a group of bodies and in those cases energy steal just dosen't work. i also took issue with the fact that verata's wasn't in the build, yes you're a bomber, yes your minions are supposed to die, but they are supposed to make it to the bad guys before they kick off or they aren't doing any good. without verata's it's nearly impossible to keep minions alive long enough to get them from group to group. blood of the master can be safely removed because you don't need, or even want, spot healing mid fights because if the minions are alive they aren't exploding but not verata's. virulence is definatly the best elite for this build since you've got poison going off on everyone and from the mesmer line the best skill to augment this with is epidemic since it will spread the weakness and poison around to anyone who doesn't have it already. i threw in barbs for use on single targets as a spike. you don't want to waste your whole army detonating just to kill one guy so barbs is an excellent choice for spiking single targets when you run into them. normally i'd cast barbs, detonate one minion, hit the guy with virulence, use verata's, and then reapply the above skills whenever necessary. comments? questions? 07:17, 25 March 2006 (CST)

Slower than others
"Slower Attack: Horrors attack slightly slower then other animated creatures, approximately once every 3 seconds"

This note is on 3 out of 4 sections, which are these others the page is refering to? ;) 02:48, 29 March 2006 (CST)

Builds here
Why was the Renewal master moved here? This article is a monster in terms of length as it is and the renewal master doesnt strike me as a very general minion build. --Xeeron 23:59, 29 March 2006 (CST)


 * as i mentioned in the renewal master article talk, it's only innovations are rolled into this article so it can be removed. --Honorable Sarah 22:21, 30 March 2006 (CST)

Factions stuff
i just saw the factions tag about halfway through the article. i didn't think about that when i was sugguesting adding the factions skills. perhaps it should be removed until it can be confirmed? --Honorable Sarah 22:24, 30 March 2006 (CST)
 * I put the tag in there. It definitly looks ugly. But it needs to be there as long as we mention the factions skills (which could in theory be changed dramatically till release). Taking them out for now is maybe the better way. --Xeeron 22:38, 30 March 2006 (CST)
 * You could see Team - Trapper Farm Build for a suggestion on how to do it. All of those who have commented on the talk page have been satisfied on the solutions there. I think that the trapping article is also a good page to look through in general when construvting this page. It seems to be in a good state in almost all ways (not the equipment section). 22:54, 30 March 2006 (CST)
 * Now that Factions is alive, I've added a few entries dealing with the new animation skills as well as looking at making a Ritualist minion master. --Thervold 18:24, 15 May 2006 (CDT)

Upgrades Order
in a heavy death situation, the recharge time of animate and healing skills is the limiting factor to maintaining a large army, but in a showdown with another MM, casting time is most important in the race for corpses. since MM's are rare in the RPG campaign and PvP MM is covered in the Team - Minion Factory build, i think recharge is more important, and thusly reverted the weapons area to my original order --Honorable Sarah 06:29, 3 April 2006 (CDT)


 * I changed it back because you're missing the point. as a minion BOMBER, which is what that area of the equipment guide is specific too, fast recharging healing skills is almost entirly useless since you don't use healing all that often.  fast casting is what allows you to extend death nova across as many minions as possible, which is the entire point of a minion bomber build.  as a standard minion master maintaining a large army of fiends recharge is definatly better but when you're plaing with minions and death nova and you want your minions to die fast recharges on healing are entirely useless.  bombers don't maintain large armys so the point that recharge times of healing skills is the limiting factor in maintaining one is moot.  take note that there is a seperate section for equipment on a standard MM above the one you edited, which is minion bomber specific. 17:25, 3 April 2006 (CDT)


 * how am i missing the point when your point reiterates mine? reguardless, bomber is a specialised build of the general MM, and this is the General Minion Mastery Guild. bomber is an parralle build anyways, perhaps it should be seperated? it stands on it's own better then some of the other seperated articles--Honorable Sarah 11:11, 9 April 2006 (CDT)


 * i'm not really sure how 'fast casting is the best mod' reiterates(repeats) the point that 'fast recharging is the best mod.' they appear to be two different, and opposed, points to me.  basically the limiting factor for damage on a fiends build is how many fiends you have and how well healed they are so recharge is the best mod you can get.  in a bomber build the limiting factor for damage is how many death novas you can have up at one time as well as how fast you can get a death nova on a new minion and since death nova already recharges instantly fast casting is the best mod for this.  i would agree that the minion bomber is a bit to complex and nuanced for inclusion as a fotenote style build in the general guide and it probably needs its own page.tetracycloide [[Image:slick.gif|15px]] 18:16, 9 April 2006 (CDT)

Minion Properties
There is the level progression of the various minions but no detail as to the health, attack, armor level that they have.
 * This is because noone knows for sure. It belongs to the very heavily obfuscated realm of ANet mystery. --Bishop (rap|con) 13:32, 17 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Small addendum: We do know one thing... Health is calculated the same way for minions as for normal characters: 100 + ((level-1) x 20).  This information probably belongs on the minion page instead anyways. --Spot 13:56, 17 May 2006 (CDT)

Inclusion of builds
This is a follow on from the discussion on the N/any Dedicated Minion Master build I put up. I don't think this article should include example builds. For a "general" guide it's already very long, and builds are the exact reverse of general - they tell you specifically what skills to use and what circumstances to use them under. I think the builds should be removed and created as untested builds in the builds section of the site, so they can be vetted/approved as any other suggested build is (as it stands the builds on this page seem to go through a less rigorous process than the builds in the builds section of the site).

For what it's worth I think the same should apply to the general trapping guide - I don't see why MM and trappers should have to go somewhere else for their builds than any other profession in the game. --NieA7 (26 June 2006)

Dealing with MM-Builds
Okay, ummm... dunno if this is the right place to ask this, but it seems like there's a lot of super-similar builds out there. Like minion master lineups with more or less just the elite skill changed (flesh golem to aura of the lich or offering of blood or somesuch), or spiteful spirit builds with minor skill differences, or whatever. Wouldn't it be more straightforward to have a minion-master build page, with all of these listed as variants? The playstyles do not generally deviate that much from the base setup...

Just as an example, I can kinda see this particular build being put together with the Renewal Minion Master under one heading, with notes on taking elementalist and the glyphs of you wanna do that. The Dedicated Minion Master and the Discord Master can more or less be merged with this as well.

Other builds off the top of my head that suffer this kind of fragmentation are the SS setups. The SS Punisher should probably be mentioned as a variant of the SS Nuker (The one already in the tested category), yes?

Anyways, just my thoughts on the matter. Too many builds that look kinda the same to me. :S --Kit Engel 23:04, 13 July 2006 (CDT)


 * As I said above I don't think there should be any builds in a general guide as a build is anything but general. Looking at the three builds you mention above it seems that there is only 1 skill common to all of them, not to mention differences in attribute point distribution and usage (dedicated has no offensive skills while discord does, renewal is highly focussed around one skill that doesn't appear in the other two builds etc etc).


 * If you mean that you want a "Minion Master" build page separate from this article then I'm still not sure it's a good idea. We already have a farming category for builds, why not just delete the builds from this guide, re-create them as individual builds (so they can be vetted like all the other builds) then create a Minion Master build category and dump them all in that. Build pages are for builds, guide pages are for guides, I don't think the two should be mixed. Bearing in mind the non-response to my bit above I was thinking about doing this over the weekend anyway, on the grounds that nobody else seems to mind... --NieA7 (14 July 2006)


 * Umm, that's not what I meant, though in all fairness, I was pretty unclear. It's just that it seems that things would be more clear to me, if we did something like such: have one page with a basic minion master lineup. Perhaps we could use the dedicated minion master build for it. This would be the base, from which all the other ones deviate from. Then in variations, we say something like: "If you would like to have more offensive capability, then take Discord, Enfeeble, etc etc, and replace such-and-such skills." Or, "Some people like to reduce the amount of health sacrificed by Blood of the Master by using Aura of the Lich as the elite skill. In this case, it may be useful to bring bitter chill as well, or contemplation of purity." Something like that?


 * The complaint kinda stems a bit from my own experiences running assorted minion master builds in missions and stuff. Often, for me, the difference in skills and attributes feels so minor that I don't even think of them as radically different setups. It's something like, "Oh, we just need minions to act as a meatshield here. I'll take something to gimme a bit more damage," or, "The minion's will be doing lotsa damage, I better bring Winnowing," or somesuch.


 * I dunno. Am I making any sense? >_< --Kit Engel 06:44, 14 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Yeah, with you now. I dunno, it's difficult - there are lots of ways to tank (for example) but a minion master build is basically revolving around the same four skills or so (minions of choice + minion heal of choice). I could see how a single page of MM build wisdom could be put together, but if you try to include all the other MM builds as varients then you could end up with a very vague and/or long article ("Instead of A and B take X and Y and move Z points from attribute C to attribute D, and change the weapon to this and the armour to that as well" kinda thing). Plus a Rt/N is a valid MM combination, including that kind of MM build on an otherwise N/any page would be a bit weird.


 * On balance I think I still like the idea of a MM category of build to catch stuff like the Rt/N combination, but perhaps after it's been created and the builds put in there could be a bit of a purge to remove dupes and dodgy builds? Alternativly all the MM builds (here and in the builds section) could be deleted and a Any/Any Minion Master page created, though that'd look a lot different than any of the other build pages. --NieA7 07:11, 14 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Something like that would be good. But it still runs into (maybe not so much a problem, I think it is) build redundancy. There's still a point where the essential part of a "new build" is just a variation on the old part. Um... like my example previous. Using AotL with a minion master setup's a big mechanical change, but not a big conceptual change. You're not changing the idea of minion mastering (Unlike the Rt/N build, if I'm thinking of the one you're thinking of. Explosive Growth/Death Nova?), you're just changing how you minion master.


 * I guess to sum up what I'm trying to say is... it'd be nice to consolidate it into essentially one page describing minion mastering and traditional minion bombing (with a necro primary).


 * (Just to explain myself about why I don't really consider the Rit build to be an actual minion master... you're essentially using the animate skills as a means of targetting. You cause a putrid-explosion like effect with the corpses when you create minions, and you time bomb them with death nova/signet of creation. The traditional minion bomber, if I recall correctly, was basically a minion master that had death nova and taste of death so that you could get a bit of damage out of dying minions anyways. So comparing these two, there appears to be a rather major change in actual idea, so they're not really the same thing. The Rt/N build can get it's own page.)


 * Well, that's my rambling for now. Any thoughts? ^_^ --Kit Engel 07:24, 14 July 2006 (CDT)


 * NieA7 reflects my personal opinion. A guide is a guide, a build is a build. The Style and formatting page for builds clearly states, what a build constitutes. A build article should provide all necessary information for playing it and cover all points from the Style and Formatting page. Some kind of general build and added variants can't cover all points. In my opinion, the following steps are needed for building a MM:
 * choose between healing or sacrificing your minions
 * either choose ways to heal them or to kill them
 * if healing then how, if killing then how
 * since last nerf, choose skills to keep yourself alive, if you use Blood of the Master
 * choose peripheral skills (party support, ...)
 * The MM guide includes most of the points, but the provided "builds" are fragmentary. They show some kind of strategy and see how "stategies" in build category are handled. At the moment, a mm starter has to read the full guide and at the end, the article shows some, to my mind, mediocre or outdated builds without any help how to play them. The current form doesn't allow variety in skill choice. I'd rather call this section Basic Strategies, take the key skills, leave the other slots optional. Then add a little note about the basic use.


 * == Basic Strategies ==
 * Basic Army Master
 * short discription/usage
 * Specific builds:
 * tested and rated Build 1
 * tested and rated Build 2
 * tested and rated Build 2


 * Minion Bomber
 * short discription/usage
 * Specific builds:
 * tested and rated Build 3
 * tested and rated Build 4
 * tested and rated Build 4


 * BTW, could someone fix the mini skillbars, can't get indent to work. --Nemren 08:42, 14 July 2006 (CDT)


 * OK, I think both Kit and Nemren are onto something. Kit's right that if nothing in particular is done there's gonna be a lot of Minion Master builds in the build section which aren't all that fundamentally different (point taken about the Rt/N build). There are two or maybe three basic types of MM (horror type/fiend type/bomber type) so there's definitely scope for including a couple of examples of three or four basic skills to form a build around, with more specific examples linked to in the builds section (and I agree that the MM builds in this guide are poor at best, I think they'd get shot down in a second if they were in the builds section). As of now there are no MM builds that have made it into the vetted section, which is kinda awkward as we probably shouldn't link builds that are being tested to a supposedly authoritative guide. On those terms it'd be easier if we made a MM build category as we could just link to that instead of specific builds (and ditto with trappers on that article), although after vetting I doubt there'd be more than 4 approved builds so it'd be kinda empty. On balance I'd prefer a category I think, how about you guys? --NieA7 15:27, 14 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Bleh. Stupid proxy couldn't edit because someone in Singapore was vandalizing stuff. Anyways. A category could work. I'm not familiar with wiki mechanics, and I have no idea how I would set such a thing up, though I'm for it. It'll still feel spammy to me, but at least spammy in a controlled area. ^_^ (I prefer longer articles Vs. lotsa articles that aren't much different, but any organizational scheme would be very welcome.) --Kit Engel 23:40, 15 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Right, I've added a MM build category and stuck the dedicated build in it, all seems to work fine. I'll create build articles for the builds given here then stick in the stubs above in their place. There are too many MM builds at this point (though I kinda like the idea of spamming minion masters rather than minions), once we've got them all categorised let's go through and have a purge, voting on 'em all. If it turns out that we end up with only two or three approved builds then the category can probably go down with the rest of 'em. --NieA7 13:07, 17 July 2006 (CDT)

They're creeping back.. delete them all &mdash; Skuld  06:50, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * how far does this go? Category:Barrage Builds? Category:Illusionary Weapon Builds? Category:IWAY_Builds? Category:healing monk builds?--Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 13:39, 17 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Good question. There were two initial problems here - builds in a guide article and too many similar MM builds. I'm just trying to tidy things up a bit by removing the builds from the guide and trying to get a few tested and approved MM builds (as of now there aren't any, I think). Once we've got two or three approved builds (so we can link to them directly from this article - I don't think we should link to unapproved builds) and removed the too-similar ones the category can be deleted. Until then it's a useful way of getting all the builds in one place for comparison. Least, that's what I think - I've created the category and added my MM build to it, I'll remove the builds from this guide, create them seperately and add them to the category as well (I'll add the stubs above to the guide - even if the builds and category crash and burn I think the stubs are a great improvement). I won't mess with the other MM builds until everybody's had a chance to think about it though. --NieA7 13:53, 17 July 2006 (CDT)

OK, basic build stubs added (totally cribbed from Nemren). I've not linked to the (now defunct) category or any builds in particular yet - I'll see if I can tidy up the rest of the guide in general over the next week or so, if no approved builds have emerged by then then I'll probably link to the builds page in general.--NieA7 16:10, 18 July 2006 (CDT)

Degeneration
I have seen that minions can go even to -11 and more health degeneration if they live long enough...This is tested with Verata's Sacrifice.&mdash;
 * Correct, but they're capped at -10, like everything else. The overflow just counters any regeneration you give it. This is most noticeable in Urgoz's Warren, when you go to the -15 degen room --- longtime minions look like they're not affected at all. --Kit Engel 07:42, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

Dealing with the 10 minion cap
Just a question: if you already have 10 minions and create another one, which one dies: the one closest to you, the one with the least health, or the one with the most degen?
 * The oldest one, so the one with the most degen, usually. --Theeth (talk)   19:48, 30 August 2006 (CDT)

New skills
Jagged Bones and Putrid Flesh look like they'll have a lot of potential for minion bombing, and it looks like it might be possible to generate ten minions from a single corpse with Animate Flesh Golem and Jagged Bones, although we don't know what level they'll be. Animate Shambling Horror looks nice too. -- Gordon Ecker 21:47, 20 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Unfortunately Jagged Bones turns out to be elite, so you can only use it to spawn unlimited undead off of another minion master's golem (assuming it can target any allied minions and not just your own). -- Gordon Ecker 01:10, 21 September 2006 (CDT)

Degen and Monk skills
I just checked to see if using monk healing skills on a minion does increase its degen. I went to the isle of the nameless, used animate bone minions, healed one with Orison about a dozen times, got both of them back to full health with Blood of the Master then watched - both died at exactly the same moment. Using healing skills on minions does not affect their degen in any noticeable way whatsoever. --NieA7 18:48, 7 October 2006 (CDT)

Aura of the Lich happens to be one of the best MM elites out there, yet there's no build that uses it on the MM build list >_< I'm gonna add a link to one. P A R A S I T I C 21:33, 30 December 2006 (CST)

Body Blocking
Um,I don't know if anyone knows or not,but there was an update that allows you to pass through friendlies,including minions and pets.Wich one it is i can't remember though.

Jagged Bones
Because of the Thursday February 1st update i have changed the spell about jagged bones it now says something more accurate to the new recharge. If you would prefer what it used to say i have a copy saved on my computer. FredisHere 06:32, 12 February 2007 (CST)
 * Don't dismiss the possibility of the Necro Hero helping you out with those pesky enchants. I run a Rit/N Minion Bomber and made Master of Whispers my bi-otch. Death Nova, Jagged Bones, two Heal Areas, 3 damage spells, and a rez. For corpse-heavy areas I swap out a damage spell for Animate Shambling Horrors. Also, if you go to the History tab, compare two versions, on the top of the page is an (Undo) link. It's how people do reverts. BarGamer 15:49, 12 February 2007 (CST)

energy
did all the minion spells always have that hight of an energy cost?
 * Animate Bone Minions used to have 25. Besides, with high enough Soul Reaping, you're getting more energy than it costs you to create. --220.233.103.77 04:38, 4 March 2007 (CST)
 * Not for Vamps and Fiends, though, those are still 25. I'm glad Bone Minions is down to 15, makes Bombers happy. XD BarGamer 15:43, 4 March 2007 (CST)

Verata's Aura
To quote what the article says about Verata's Aura:

''Verata's Aura can be used as a quick way to regain an army after being resurrected, or steal an army from opposing necromancers. It immediately turns all minions in the area to you, but has a drastic downside, in that when it ends, your entire army, regardless of how they were accumulated, will turn against you. Once you cast this spell, you MUST maintain it. Should it be stripped or lost, your faithful army will become masterless.''

In particular the sentence, "Once you cast this spell, you MUST maintain it." implies that one can keep any animated undead allied to you by this skill forever by recasting the spell before it expires. However, the wiki page for Verata's Aura states "All hostile animated undead..." which implies that one can only keep any converted animated undead as long as the spell lasts as once they are converted they are no longer hostile. Can anyone confirm the case with this spell? If the article is incorrect on this matter, it would be worth change the sentences in question to advice destroying the undead with the relevant skills before Verata's Aura expires, as suggested in wiki page for Verata's Aura. --IAmAI 16:45, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

Rt Bombing
Should you mention Jagged Bones also triggers Explosive Growth, Boon of Creation and Spirit's Gift?--Rickyvantof 17:46, 14 April 2007 (CDT)