Talk:Vizunah Square (mission)/Archive 1

Can someone please RV? # Nilles 05:00, 5 May 2006 (CDT)

tips for mission/master
I noticed that iway is not in the list of tips for master so I added it to the list. it should be in there tnx to the big ammount of death npc's you can keep it up almost all the time wenn fighting --Elliot 07:47, 6 February 2007 (CST)

Add all the required mission info
I added Broad Head Arrow based on its article. I will play this mission now and add some more information and try to get a map, however it probably still wont be complete. Are there separate objectives for this mission? --MasterPatricko 13:52, 5 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Yes, there are two groups of 8. One has to protect Mhenlo, the other has to protect Togo. Eventually, the two groups join and the mission objectives become the same for both teams, which is basically protect Mhenlo and Togo while fighting your way through the mission. There are no sideways. # Nilles 14:40, 5 May 2006 (CDT)

Playing both sides
So is it possible for Prophecies characters to get to the Local Quarter and play it from there? I don't think so -- as I can't get in, even after having done the Foreign Quarter, the guard tells me to talk to Togo. What about vice-versa? I think it is -- I think my Factions char could get into the Local Quarter. Can someone verify both ways, please? And, if you're feeling enterprising, add appropriate notes to Vizunah Square (Mission), Vizunah Square (Local Quarter) & Vizunah Square (Foreign Quarter) ? Edit: As a side note, please tell me I'm wrong about the Local Quarter & Prophecies characters, as it has an Undercity entrance that is pretty much essential for The Shadow Blades and other quests. --Tinarto 16:42, 12 May 2006 (CDT)

A Guildmate of mine got his Canthan character into the foreign quarter by tagging along with Tyrian characters. Haven't tried the other way around yet, though. --Sykoone 21:35, 12 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I also have a guild mate who experienced the same. --Nilles 05:24, 13 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I have had two separate friends and myself confirm, that Prophecies characters cannot enter the Local Quarter area. --Chrono_traveller


 * If a Canthan character who already has the mission area open is the leader and he tries the Local Quarter's Undercity entrance, the gate is closed and Guardsman Pei tells him to go away. The only remaining possibility is a Canthan character who is currently doing the entrance quest. --Tinarto [[Image:Tinarto-gold-Monk-icon-small.png]] 20:43, 19 May 2006 (CDT)

I have a Factions character and I have entered both Local and Foreign quarter. Its seems that if you take your Factions character to Tyria (Prophecies) you can enter the Foreign Quarter after. I can't confirm this, but its the only explanation to be able to enter the Foreign quarter when in the begining I couldn't enter.
 * I also was able to get a canthan character to the foreign quarter and we plan on trying to get my tyrian character to the local quarter. I think it depends on who leads the party. In theory, once you get the quest and they go to the cutscene you should go along with them to the local quarter.
 * I don't think it's as simple as the party leader having the quest. For the first two Canthan missions, it tells you that you have "ineligible" party members if you bring along Tyrian characters and try to get in.  I don't know if the hypothesis of taking your Canthan character to Tyria will let you into the foreign zone, but I can say that I took one of my Canthan characters to Tyria and was able to simply walk in with only henchmen at some later point.  --68.142.14.39 09:47, 16 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Access to the foreign quarter for Canthan characters is unlocked after completing either Closer to the Stars, Nahpui Quarter or To Tahnnakai Temple. I suspect that the gate is only open if all party members meet the criteria. I also suspect that the same criteria apply for Tyrian characters accessing the local quarter. -- Gordon Ecker 01:47, 2 June 2006 (CDT)
 * I've completed the game (missions, vast majority of quests) with a Prophecies character and cannot enter Local Quarter, as of last check. --Tinarto [[Image:Tinarto-gold-Monk-icon-small.png]] 02:02, 2 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Since noone has any evidence so far that Tyrian characters can enter the Local Quarter, I think this is useful information to put into the article.--Chrono traveller 16:51, 17 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I edited the local quarter article to reflect this, but I will say it here again. My ele has Vizunah local and the way she did that is she helped a friend do Mayhem in the Market. It was just me and the ritualist friend and henchies. He spoke to the guard and the guard took us in. --Karlos 05:12, 21 June 2006 (CDT)


 * This is definitely true. We did this on purpose tonight.  Two Tyrian characters were joined in a party with one Canthan and one other character (who I believe was Tyrian, but I'm not sure).  The Canthan lead us through the Mayhem in the Market quest.  At the end of the quest, the Canthan character talked to the NPC outside the gate, and we were warped into the Local Quarter. Xylia 00:19, 13 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Same for me. My Tyrian Warrior accompanied my Ritualist when she did Mayhem in the Market (I don't remember who led the party, other than that, henches only). He had the Mission already completed from the Foreign Quarters (in fact, I think he had already completed the whole game), so again, no help on any possible other requirements. --84-175 (talk) 18:18, 18 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I tried to get into the local quarter with my Tyrian character by accompanying others. At the gate guard everyone went in *except* for me. That character never finished the mission on either side though, so I think at the very least you must have the mission completed before you can enter the opposite side.


 * A friend of mine ran her Tyrian monk from Foreign to Local to help me with local. Will ask for more details and edit. --Armond Warblade (talk) 17:55, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

Just helped a Canthan character through the quest with my Tyrian one. I was party leader and it did allow me in. Don't think it has anything to do with party leader's quest status, just that the prerequisites are met. (Shing Jea missions and someone in the party with the quest) Yggdrasil 18:48, 16 October 2006 (CDT)

U definitely can enter both local and foreign as tyrian player, i can provide screenies if you'd like...i simply joined a group that had the quest to enter and you are taken in with them.

Death at the end
Can I get a confirmation on the talk page that the death at the cutscene counts towards the return on /deaths? I know it says it's confirmed but I don't see anything on the talk page. Gonna be hard to get experience at Lutgardis Conservatory for my survivor assassin if it does, so I'd like to know. Thanks in advance. --Armond Warblade (talk) 17:57, 18 August 2006 (CDT)

I just did the mission with my assassin and after the cut scence when shiro kills you i did not recieve another death. So if this was happening in the past it appear like they have fixed it.


 * Goody. Thanks for the info. --Armond Warblade (talk) 13:47, 25 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Just did the Mission to check this again - the death during the cutscene did not count towards the /death counter. Anyway, the page states that under certain circumstances the death may be counted - is this just wrong or do we know anything more specific about it? -- Sai Qui 05:44, 17 September 2006 (CDT)

Can you just leave the game by clicking top right X button after getting the reward icon, saving your character, getting reward and teleporting to Dragon's Throat upon relogging? --Mira 17:54, 22 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Should be able to. I forget if someone posted this on the page or if I read it elsewhere (too many pages watched on the wiki x.x), but the extra death after this mission seems to have sprung from the oh-so-common Minion Crazyness Bug. Big problem since this mission is so easy with two MMs. --Armond Warblade (talk) 19:48, 22 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I looked to late, my olias's just killed my survivor. Jelmewnema 11:37, 1 March 2007 (CST)
 * Cut scene most DEFINITELY still gives a survivor death, which is ridiculous. The bugs in this mission are unbelievable STILL. -76.166.23.65 05:33, 4 March 2007 (CST)

Just did it, X'd out before the death happened because we had two MMs, but I still got the reward - http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/3271/dragonsfe8.jpg --Tommy McTom 11:06, 3 July 2007 (CDT)

Trapper note
This newly added note about trappers.. Isn't it a bit too in depth? I think traps should just be listed with the other skill types that work well here, and the note should be deleted, sadly. Ifer 17:10, 19 September 2006 (CDT)


 * You're right, that's way too in-depth... Takes up about a third of the notes section. Maybe just a simple mention that trapping works well here and a link to a general trapping guide? (Might need to put such a guide on a to-do list...) --Armond Warblade (talk) 23:21, 20 September 2006 (CDT) Edit: Whoa, there is such a guide already? XD Fun.

Wanna know something funny about the cutscene at end? If you had MM and the minions aren't dead yet, the health degen will stop and the minions attack the Envoys. It was funny. The Envoys were getting shot by arrows, and when you get hit by projectiles, you kinda flinch, like a half knockdown. It was funny. Luthien Eniriel 00:15, 23 September 2006 (CDT)

Assa stuck
My Assassin has been stuck standing on the ground not able to move even with keyboard but able to use spell like rez when target is in range. That happened two times. One i was all alone with hench (no team on other side), the other i was with hench en my part and they followed the 3 humains of the other side. My Assa was getting stuck elsewhere too. Mainly while using Dancing Daggers. 24.202.239.79TulipVorlax (main character IG).
 * Sounds like the infamous "stuck" bug. Mhenlo got stuck in the stairs for one run I did :(  Was this near a stairs or some sort of object or anything?  Seems kinda common there. - Greven 02:08, 27 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Didnt Anet add a /stuck command to undo this? or did i imagine that?--Coloneh RIP[[Image:Coloneh.png]] 23:01, 26 November 2006 (CST)
 * Supposedly. I've not had much luck with /stuck though. --Armond Warblade (talk) 19:47, 28 November 2006 (CST)

NF character Glitch
If you try to start the mission with a Nightfall character as party leader with heroes in the group, the mission will malfunction. When the counter counts down to zero, the gate at the start will not open. Crimson Butcher 00:53, 28 November 2006 (CST)
 * Oh, fun. Well, so much for me being leader on my derv there, like I always am... --Armond Warblade (talk) 19:47, 28 November 2006 (CST)
 * I did it fine, just now. My brother and I completed it - He's a Paragon, I'm a Dervish. We were the only humans in the party, so it's either been fixed or you just got unlucky and it was due to something else. - 12.218.6.223 22:41, 4 December 2006 (CST)

Is this the reason that this mission is in the Bugs category? If it is, it's definitely fixed, and it should be taken out of that category. Spectrus 10:01, 28 January 2007 (CST)
 * Also, the gate don't open straightaway. They talk for a while. &mdash;[[Image:BlastThatT.jpg]]Blastedt 15:43, 7 April 2007 (CDT)

Henchmen Note
"If you will be bringing henchmen and are starting from the local quarter know that if your party is standing its ground while the Tyrian party approaches, the henchmen will be drawn to the moving party and might leave you to run to them." - Isn't this obsolete now? I'm pretty sure henchmen now only follow the leader of their party. Perhaps it'd be best for someone to find out if they still try to follow the other party's leader or not now though. If someone confirms this is no longer an issue, please remove that part as well as the parts under Glitches relating to it. Capcom 22:23, 3 December 2006 (CST)

Rearranged Article
I saw the change earlier today to change Tyrian to Tyrian or Elonian, looked closer and saw that the job really needed to be finished. While rephrasing the Tyrian -> foreigner, I noticed several other inconsistencien with the article (there were Notes under the Glitches section, the "Notes" section was more like the "Tips for Masters" section in Nahpui Quarter, etc. What started out as a simple search and replace turned into an hour long editing extravaganza.  I fixed many links, changed the Traps section (as mentioned above), and more. ScionOfErixalimar 15:04, 12 December 2006 (CST)

Cutscene Bug
When I took my NF Dervish and soloed the mission with only me as both sides' human player, the cut scene showed nothing when Togo and Mhenlo were talking, and while the main character's turn came, it didn't even show text... One showed a section of the rails talking and the other was off to the side of the group. Possible bug.Mister abc 15:38, 2 February 2007 (CST)

Ugh..
Yet another poorly assembled adventure. Guild Wars is like a tragic hero, magnificent in certain aspects, horribly afflicted in others. Two decent MM necros with full henchy squads and a bloody massive ammount of minions... overwhelmed? W. T. F? If we weren't mm's it seems ......insane to think success is possible.
 * Heh, while MM necros do make this mission alot easier they aren't necessary for masters. I've mastered this with 12 hench, 3 heros on an sf nuker without one ;)  Lojiin 12:58, 5 February 2007 (CST)
 * Wish I could do the same. I'm giving up.  36 allied units getting overwhelmed is silly.  Not worth the frustration.
 * So, I gave it another go. ...seems what I was missing where some human players and some AoE.  Brought WoS along and also a friendly neighborhood nuker.  AoE is the key methinks.  The second-to-last flood was still a pain though.
 * Well the minions ain't there for the damage. A damage build for minions looks different than the common MM build. It's just to spread the hostile damage over more targets and keep the enemies busy and hopefully blocked with/by minions while the real damage dealers of a team cast their stuff. Monks have it easier too with MMs in the party, they don't need to bother with healing the minions who take a lot of damage and with 2 MMs the minions get healed by both necros too. That minions get easily owned is no wonder, the Afflicted spawn fast, do a lot of damage when not taken down quickly (which happens when you've no damage dealer) and as if that wasn't enough, they explode when they die too and that's troublesome for minions ;) --Birchwooda Treehug 21:20, 12 March 2007 (CDT)

Annoying Behavior
Beware of an allied group with only one human player. I'm not sure what they stand to gain, but the last 6 times I tried this mission my ally planted a flag so her henchman wouldn't move, then logged out, leaving my group alone to try to finish the mission, which is nearly impossible.
 * Are you sure about this? I'm not sure this was a griefer. This mission seems bugged if entered from the Local quarter (as of March 4 2007, still).  Menhlo's group ends up rushing back to the Foreign quarter entrance and never rejoins the main group (even though Menhlo does) - making the mission extremely difficult to finish since Menhlo & Togo are usually at opposite ends of the group and do not move, while multiple groups of afflicted attack them both at the same time.  I have redone this many times as well, and whenever no other group joins on the other side the other side's henchmen run off... :/ - 76.166.23.65 05:29, 4 March 2007 (CST)

There are also idiots doing this mission on a very low level, I noticed someone was level 5 when it said he just became lvl 5, I shouls have planted the flag somewhere before leaving.

Halfway
Do you need to get masters from both locations for defender's? Tsukan 17:13, 3 March 2007 (CST)
 * The same mission status shows up on both outposts, just like Unwaking Waters. (That is, if you've done masters on one side, it'll also show up as masters on the other side since it's the same mission.) &mdash; [[Image:Fin_sig.gif|User:Kyrasantae]] kyrasantae  17:18, 3 March 2007 (CST)
 * Cool, thanks. Tsukan 19:36, 5 March 2007 (CST)

Cutscene Bug
When I was going for Masters, during the ending of the cutscene instead of Togo walking up to talk to everyone, our monk did, but he just stood there and Togo was talking behind the group. Next our monk spoke, and he had a female voice even though he was a male monk.
 * There seem to be other bugs regarding cutscenes in this mission. I had a horrible delay during the end scene, voices were overlapping and subtitles were missing. Does this relate to latency or is it bad scripting? --80.145.189.81 18:18, 25 April 2007 (CDT)
 * i had the voice overlapping too, but last time i did the mission it was fixed... but our male warrior suddenly had my voice (female monk) o.O - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:Y0_ich_halt_logo.jpg|15px]] contribs 07:45, 26 April 2007 (CDT)

lol, sex change? Cardsharp 11:48, 17 August 2007 (CDT)

Foreign in Local Bug
Not sure if this is a general bug, or specific to this situation. I'd joined a mayhem party to get my tyrian ranger into the local quarter, and the party leader launched into the mission straight away. We managed to get expert reward, however my map is showing 3 swords (Master) on vizunah square local and foreign. Haven't had anything like this happen elsewhere, which makes me think it's a bug specific to this. --BramStoker 15:37, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I've had it happen on Nahpui Quarter, too. And also my guild's faction has recently stopped decaying. The whole caboodle is VERY buggy lately 89.240.228.31 05:59, 11 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Just a quick follow-up, quitting the game and going back in updated the outpost images to the correct 2 swords image (for the achieved expert reward). Faction not decaying has interesting implications for outpost holders... --BramStoker 07:58, 11 April 2007 (CDT)

Wow, what a stupid mission.
Jesus Christ, I always said that Nahpui is the stupidiest mission in Cantha (after Gyala Hatchery, of course). But today I tried to do it on my surivor 8 times. 3 times no living person joined. Once there were 2 people, they forgot to save Togo (lost after 4 minutes -.-). On the other time, someone went in a group of Rt/W and W/Rt, both lvl 12, with henches, no heroes. Of course, only one guy surivied, no hard rez and we lost at the end. The other 3 times people just abandoned mission and went away -.- I FREAKIN' HATE THIS MISSION! - (Abedeus) 14:13, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Probably one mission where the benefit of coordinated guild/alliance teams really helps. You might want to try and convince your guild to set aside a time to try this mission, suggest hitting masters for people who haven't got it etc.  You might need the party leaders on TS/vent to ensure they hit the enter mission at the same time.  Or have a 3rd person countdown on guild/alliance chat. --BramStoker 07:43, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I've found it's frequently easier to get through without any live players on the other team - you have to deal with the usual henchie issues, but at least you know they'll be there.Fourth Horseman 08:11, 18 April 2007 (CDT)


 * In my experience, the best way to do this mission (apart from a well coordinated guild/alliance team of course) is with no living person at all. Henchmen may not be powerful, but they are reliable. And they especially manage to keep Togo and Mhenlo alive. I had the luck to get no humans there two times, so far. Made master's with both of them, no sweat. --84-175 (talk) 08:27, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I concur. I did this with my mesmer playing Me/E MoR nuker with only henches and heroes (one MM, one dual-attunement nuker, one good prot monk), and all henchies on the other side.  Took masters with no problems whatsoever.  Considering all the times I have failed this miserable buggy piece of crap mission with human parties, I'd say that's the way to go. --Reason.decrystallized 07:03, 28 June 2007 (CDT)

Envoys Watching Battle vs Shiro'ken?
While Fighting the last group I noticed Courier Torivos standing in the backround, I will check again but I could definatly target and ping "I'm talking to Courier Torivos!" in party chat. It was near the end of the battle though so he might of appeared after the Shiro'ken was felled but the cutscene waited till the rest of the mob was dead (there was 1 Ritualist left). I will look into it more after some sleep, unless someone else can check for me. Meeps 18:05, 7 May 2007 (CDT)

Note about Edge of Extinction
I think that Edge of Extinction is not as good idea as the page says because it's quite deadly to minions and minions help more than EoE in this mission IMO.
 * the high death rate for afflicted caused by EoE will bring up enough corpses for any mm. and if that mm is a jagged or a minion bomber, EoE will only help him to almost spike the afflicted with death nova. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:Y0_ich_halt_logo.jpg|15px]] contribs 11:20, 21 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Well I used normal MM build (flesh golem etc.) on my hero in this mission and it worked just fine. --WertyG 08:51, 24 May 2007 (CDT)
 * of course. EoE isn't needed at all to do this mission. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:Y0_ich_halt_logo.jpg|15px]] contribs 08:53, 24 May 2007 (CDT)
 * EoE has great synergy with minion bomber builds. It both damages the other afflicted when one if them dies, and speeds up the nuking of minions for AoE damage. -Malcheior Sveth 22:06, 22 September 2007 (CDT)
 * well, you're a bit late :) but still, thanks for the echo. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:Y0_ich_halt_logo.jpg|15px]] contribs 09:04, 23 September 2007 (CDT)

Minion Bug
Did this only happen to me or during the final cutscene, if you have minions alive, they will attack the Envoys. Then when the Envoys resurrect you again, they attack the players. I was hoping that I wouldn't die by my minions...
 * it's usual, although normally they keep attacking the envoys. if you want to avoid dying for a survivor title you can just log out. you've finished the mission. but deaths within scenes don't count anyways afaik. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:Y0_ich_halt_logo.jpg|15px]] contribs 10:05, 30 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Yes, those deaths do count. My dervish just died for the first time during that final scene --Olivenmann 12:30, 30 May 2007 (CDT)
 * ah, there it is: this page says someone tested it. note that really only deaths by those minions count, not the one shiro causes. ^^ - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:Y0_ich_halt_logo.jpg|15px]] contribs 16:44, 30 May 2007 (CDT)

Two parties
I just did this for the first time (just travelled over from Tyria) and... didn't notice another party. Only met up with Master Togo. Didn't even realise there were two "sides" to this. :-s 82.46.19.11 14:00, 4 June 2007 (CDT)
 * maybe they all left? or it is a bug... - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:Y0_ich_halt_logo.jpg|15px]] contribs 14:40, 4 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Heh. Maybe I should do it again and check before I go around saying these things... I mean, I doubt I would've got an Expert time on my first ever attempt with only half as many characters as I was supposed to have... 82.46.19.11 15:10, 4 June 2007 (CDT)
 * well, the Unwaking Waters (Mission) also features two parties. it was the same situation, you can't imagine how surprised i was to see us actually getting master's. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:Y0_ich_halt_logo.jpg|15px]] contribs 16:47, 4 June 2007 (CDT)

Bosses
As far as I know, the bosses spawn randomly and not all are guaranteed to appear in the mission. This makes it difficult for players to know where to go, how how long they will need to go before killing a boss to get his elite. I think it would be worth mentioning that the bosses spawn randomly in the article. If someone tells me where, I could do it, but I figured I might as well through the fact out here first. Wayfarer247 12:07, 5 July 2007 (CDT)
 * You're correct, the boss spawns are random and it can make capping a pain if you don't want to wait until later to get their skills. I'd say one of the Notes sections is an appropriate place to mention it. BigAstro 12:18, 5 July 2007 (CDT)
 * There's already a note in the article, but it's at the bottom of the Tips for Masters section. I'll move it to the Notes section. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 14:29, 5 July 2007 (CDT)

lvl 28
You sure about that? If there was a level 28 Shiro'ken Elementalist at the end of this mission it would carve parties to pieces every time they get here, especially as many don't have max armor or level 20, and yet people seem to do fine at the end of this mission almost every single time --Gimmethegepgun 23:11, 10 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I recently redid this mission with a guildie and there was a Shiro'ken Elementalist at the end. And not, it doesn't carve up parties. There's only one, with 16 people it dies fast, and even if you don't kill it if you have an interrupter hero it's harmless. By this mission, even if you started in Cantha, most people have gone to Elona and gotten at least the first 3 heroes, so it's not hard. -Malcheior Sveth 22:11, 23 September 2007 (CDT)

OMG!
Twice, I played today on this mish, and got entwined with another group. Once, french, and the other I dont know. I have screencaps (minus name of other group) but you can see by party roster, we didnt have the heros that were tehre. As soon as we got close to them, however, togo died and both parties got booted... Update glitch, or what? Ravien Coromana 20:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC) BTW, the french group had this happen twice as well.


 * This is a mission that involves two teams, one from each Vizunah Square (Foreign and Local).

Mhenlo is a tough customer
Should we include trivia about what our seemingly calm and peaceful Mhenlo says to anyone foolish enough to try and mug him? Check the screen capture.

"...but I've got some beatings to spare!" Ha ha ha! What a card. ..

This article needs a rewrite
The walkthrough is very sparse, and consists mostly of a bunch of ways to say that Mhenlo and Togo have very glitchy AI. Notes that could go there are scattered all over the page in a bunch of different places. There isn't much about the intricacies of dealing with two party missions, which is the main thing that makes this mission hard. I'll carve it up with a better write-up, probably in a few days.

A broader issue that needs to be dealt with is non-standard formatting of mission pages. I've standardized the Prophecies missions into an organization with a broad section for the walkthrough, with subsections for primary, bonus, and hard mode, and occasionally other subsections as fits the mission. I'd propose bringing that setup to Factions and Nightfall missions as well, with "bonus" perhaps renamed as "master's reward".

I'll do so myself if no one objects, but it will take quite a while to work through the campaigns. On principle, I don't believe in making major edits to a mission write-up unless I've done that mission multiple times recently. Trying to recall how things went months ago introduces too many chances for comical errors. Quizzical 22:02, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * There, much better. Now I just have to figure out how to reliably beat the mission in hard mode.  Quizzical 01:16, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Ressing
I still think some ressurection Relics should be included in this mission as the henchies on the other team can get in a position where they have no res left (monks, dead and res sigs used up and no boss till well into next fight)