Template talk:!

Ooooh I think the new exclamation mark (vs the old:  ) looks ugly and because it's bigger (even with the resize) it looks a bit funny on articles. --Xasxas256 03:12, 11 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Hmmm, chaning to 8px is about the same height, but I don't know that it looks better than the old one. --Rainith 03:17, 11 June 2006 (CDT)
 * At 8px it's a little difficult to instantly recognise as an exclamation mark I reckon, it looks ok at larger sizes with it's highlighting effect but at smaller sizes it's not so good. Besides although the old one has no highlighting, it's got shadowing!--Xasxas256 03:19, 11 June 2006 (CDT)
 * The big one looks awesome. I would rather have a simpler small icon, though. Detail is wasted on tiny images, and simple line-art-y stuff with high contrast and bright colors is best. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 03:22, 11 June 2006 (CDT) )
 * I think either would need a dark border around the exclamation edges. I actually don't think I'd recognize the larger one as an exclamation at my resolution/brightness since the left edge just kinda bleeds into the white page.  --68.142.14.34 03:29, 11 June 2006 (CDT)
 * I think it needs a black border, just a 1px one otherwise it blends &mdash; Skuld  03:44, 11 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Indeed. High contrast is always good. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 03:46, 11 June 2006 (CDT) )
 * Oh, this was my upload. I didn't realize there was one already here. I searched all over for it, Exclaim2.GIF is not a nice name. :) I personally think it looks better when larger, but at that 8px size the old one does look nicer.. --Midk 03:47, 11 June 2006 (CDT)
 * One problem arises on pages that use this template with text, like Profession as the ! is bigger than a line of text so it makes the line look strange. --Rainith 03:49, 11 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Since MediaWiki resizes larger images quite poorly, if I created an 8px version of the new/larger one, it'd probably be quite recognizable as an exclamation point (instead of an awfully-pixelated greenish thing). It should also fit in much better with the lines. I didn't realize, either, that it was linked to from so many places. :) --Midk 03:50, 11 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Thats easy to fix Rainith, just change the link on and (with caching behaving) it'll just link to the pages with direct linking. I went through a while ago and changed everything with Exclaim2.GIF to, that one there must be the minority &mdash; Skuld   03:52, 11 June 2006 (CDT)
 * A slightly biggened version of &#9755; (that's HTML decimal character 9755) might make a good alternative for that particular list. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 04:00, 11 June 2006 (CDT) )


 * Won't work for all people, that is a finger pointing to the right for me here at home, most likely it won't work at all on my work computer. --Rainith 04:02, 11 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Or was the finger what you were going for, I should really read and comprehend before responding. :)  See here for all the pages that use this template.  --Rainith 04:04, 11 June 2006 (CDT)
 * It was. Based on the fact that I mostly say this being used to emphasize things (e.g. primary skills) rather than actually warn people. Though that doesn't help with the questable skills, I now realize... &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 20:51, 11 June 2006 (CDT) )

Here's a new, resized, darkened version that might be easier to see.. dunno if this is what we want, but just throwing the idea out there. :) --Midk 04:12, 11 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I &#X2661; it. Seventy.twenty.x.x 04:22, 11 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Just listing for comparison:
 * image:QuestIcon.png|8px ... [[image:QuestIcon.png|8px]]
 * Image:QuestIconThumb.png ... [[Image:QuestIconThumb.png]] (currently in use - and to me, one of the uglier options)
 * image:Exclaim2.GIF ... [[image:Exclaim2.GIF]]
 * I see a few others too, but using different colors.
 * It's a shame .png resize so poorly. I'm guessing that a hi-quality .jpg would lose too much image quality, but it might be worth at least attempting it as in the wiki I've noticed that .jpg files do generally resize better than .png files, although at the cost of fine detail in some cases, and I don't believe that .jpg supports transparencies. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 15:26, 13 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Interestingly, I also found a few other icons (two were just uploaded today):
 * Image:QuestSkill.PNG ... [[Image:QuestSkill.PNG]]
 * Image:QuestSkillProphecies.PNG ... [[Image:QuestSkillProphecies.PNG]]
 * Image:QuestSkillFactions.PNG ... [[Image:QuestSkillFactions.PNG]]
 * Image:Exclamation.png|8px ... [[Image:Exclamation.png|8px]]
 * And just to add another variable; it could also be done as straight text (although I do like the images more):
 * span style="color:green;font-size:220%;" ... !
 * I think it's safe to say we have the exclamation mark covered in the wiki. No consistency, but we have it covered.  That said, I'm sure someone else is bound to upload another one.  :-) --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 15:52, 13 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Actually, the more I view these, the more I like [[Image:QuestSkill.PNG]] or ! over the current exclamation point used. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 18:12, 17 July 2006 (CDT)

userpage
I decare mine the first talkpage plastered with the exclamationmark. I feel so honored :) ST47 18:22, 16 July 2006 (CDT)

Argh! This breaks the Wikimedia default template!
Sometimnes it is necessary to use a  |  in a template. Wikimedia pratice is to transclude | (see ). Sadly, not so here. Here, you have to |. Does wonders for legibility, I presume. That's why I made Template:l. mendel 10:32, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Having might confuse some people into thinking it's   and use incorrect code.  I would advocate for sticking with using | which has been in use on this wiki for probably 2 years by now. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 08:30, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It is inconfusable in edit's Courier, and whoever copies code off the displayed page deserves no better a learning opportunity. --mendel 17:56, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm still not sure what is your argument for using lower case L though. Double-brackets already creates clutter, might as well make it legible by calling it what it is, rather than trying to simulate its shape.  What do people learn between the use of Template:Pipe vs Template:L? -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 21:15, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I can read my code better when the template for punctuation looks like punctuation, not like a word. For that reason the default code is the | . It's not like I am strange for wanting to use the template everyone elsewhere is using, or at least something very much like it.
 * People who mistake my l for a | learn that it is better to look at Template code in the edit window (since what you see may not be what you get, especially with templates), or to copy & paste in the first place. --mendel 21:53, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Do not mix "MediaWiki" with "Wikimedia" btw. They are closely affiliated, but MediaWiki sites should not be fated to follow the conventions and practices of the Wikimedia projects, or treat what Wikimedia does as "default".  Even in the edit window, with the courier font, while the different characters are distinguishable, it is still confusion, especially for people relatively new to wikis.  I would argue "using words that look like punctuations to denote punctuations is confusing, even if the letter and the punctuation is distinguishable". I personally think it's better for people who can use a learning experience to learn that "the   character is commonly called a Pipe character on this wiki", rather than "we use that thing that looks like a lower case L (or a numerical One)".   -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 22:25, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * How about ? It's easily recognisable, can't be mistaken for ! or | and is generally easy to use. While it's not as good as ! or |, it's probably a useful compromise.  -- Dr R. Phalange  22:30, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I amend my former closing statement to "I personally think it's better for people who can use a learning experience to learn that "the  character is commonly called a Pipe character on this wiki", rather than "we use that thing that looks like a lower case L, a numerical One, an upright Slash or (insert other things that kinda visually look like the pipe character)". -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 22:43, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Spamblock ain't gona let me edit Template:/ I think. The | is documented at http://help.wikia.com/wiki/Help:Creating_templates and we are on wikia. We're not fated to follow these conventions, but please don't have me defend them. I am not arguing against Template:Pipe, you don't need to defend that. Please don't read more into my "learning" commment than what I meant (hint: the stricken text is still there). This wiki helps people learn Guild Wars, not learn wikicode. I want to use this template, not teach it to others. --mendel 22:49, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * For personal templates, the general principle is that it should be placed inside your own user namespace. Of course, that defeats the purpose of why you didn't want to use .  Feel free to defend why your personal needs in this particular situation should get away from following the general principle d-: -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 23:53, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * My personal needs getting seen to leads to me writing templates that everbody profits from. If clarity for others was a concern, we'd better rename --mendel 06:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * So then we are back to the debate on the merit of Template:L itself for the general community, which I contest. A   is a , and  is a template that produces a representation of   on this wiki.  A lower case   is not a  , and there is no practice or convention of calling   "the l symbol" or "the lowercase L symbol".  Thus I would advance the case that clarity is not really a concern with Template:!, whereas it is with Template:l. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 11:29, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not arguing clarity with someone who doesn't see an issue with all the docs on mediawiki out there suggesting using for a pipe and guildwiki giving a funny little icon. I made Template:= behave like suggests before someone needs a template for an icon with two horizontal lines. I am in the general community. L has merit for me, my templates using L have merit for the community. It's a simple transitive relation. I haven't seen any argument I could follow that proposes that L is bad for the community. "Might confuse some people who can't code" is about the best I got in that direction. --mendel 22:36, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The one argument I would prepared to accept is along the line of "I have a hard time understanding your code when you're using that "; it'd be a matter of common courtesy then to bite my teeth and use . You haven't said that, though. And I'd probably come back with "I have a hard time understanding why an infobox display also adds categories to an article". Oh well. (Insert threat to leave the wiki here for proper wikidrama experience.) --mendel 15:23, 8 June 2008 (UTC)