User talk:Solus

User:Solus/Archive1 User:Solus/Archive2 User:Solus/Archive3

Discussion
Discuss :) Solus   00:17, 28 April 2007 (CDT)

Revert
I am not so boorish as to break into your Archives and make an edit there, so I have rewritten my blanked comments, as well as your response, here so that others may understand the conversation.

Your Revert

I contest your revert of my revert of the changes made to the Scams article.

1) On "Ferrying"

Of course it is a scam. Look at the Lion's Arch article. It is a well-known fact that you do not need a ferry to reach LA. All you need to do is go visit a certain Guild Hall and you will be taken there for free. As such, there is NO reason EVER to pay for any such "ferrying" from Nightfall or Factions to LA. And that makes it a scam. Charging money for a free service is scamming. If you have a counter-argument to that, please enlighten me.

2) On Begging

The Begging note has been in the article since forever. Every single time someone has removed it, their change has been reverted and the note restored. Neither Guild Wars nor GuildWiki supports begging. You can argue that "we don't need a note against it" because in lieu of support for begging, it is implied that we do not support it, and/or that we are neutral on the issue. However, I ask you this: What is the harm in having such a common-sense, cautionary note in the Article? Anyone who has ever played an online game such as GW, WoW, whatever can attest that there are unscrupulous individuals out there who will take advantage of the poor fools who are ignorant enough to "loan" them money. Now, I have no way to tell just how many people are honest in repaying their loans, and how many aren't. But I am willing to bet that the vast majority of people who beg for loans "for my armor", "for skills", whatever, do not actually need the money and/or have a malicious intent to take a poor newbie's money and never return to them. ANet is painfully slow in reponding to such petty theft (as it's rarely more than a few plat), since they are more concerned with investigating "real" crimes such as "item duplication" scammers and such.

If we will not warn people about the dishonesty of beggars, who will? The players themselves? Unfortunately, I've heard more than enough "scammed by beggars" tales to know that this is sadly inadequate. Moreover, even those "honest beggars" who actually "need" the money because of...I dunno...being the victim of a scammer themselves, are really not deserving of help anyways. You can argue against it, but my philosophy (shared by most players) is that in Guild Wars, you pull yourself up by your own bootstraps. You don't beg for money and items from other players. Money is easy enough to come by that no one should really have to ever resort to begging. I mean, honestly - I have seen beggars standing around in Droknar's Forge for hours and hours, asking for like 100 gold "to complete my armor set" or whatever. But seriously - in that amount of time they wasted, I could have made 3-4 plat just by killing monsters right outside the door. This is the same for every place in the game; since even if you were (hypothetically) level 1 when arriving in Post-Searing, monsters are not enough of a challenge that you will be unduly pressed for money and items. Work hard and earn your own wealth; don't leech off the poor altruists. It is one thing to accept charity from a kind player who has no qualms about perhaps losing what they give you forever; it is another to constantly spam the channels with panhandling messages. It irritates everyone and helps nobody. And like I stated previously - there are few "honest beggars" out there compared to malicious ones. And that, is why I think it deserves a note in the Scams article. If you disagree, please explain why. (T/C) 00:07, 28 April 2007 (CDT)

Ferrying is not scamming, you can always to somewhere for free, or you can be run there. Ferrying, is basically running. Running isn't scamming, begging is begging, not scamming. Please keep tht crap off my talk page, ferrying IS RUNNING NOT SCAMMING. Borrowing money without intention of returning is scamming, begging isn't. Solus   00:14, 28 April 2007 (CDT)

Please don't remove my comments, Solus. That is not polite, even on your own talkpage - especially considering that, unlike normal circumstances where one might be inclined to blank comments, I did not openly insult you, spam you with stupid messages such as "I like pie" or any such "crap". (Btw, it's not nice to call my truthful comments crap, just fyi.) I was attempting for an honest debate, with records to be kept so that others viewing this page could understand the argument. But, in the end, it is ultimately your choice of course. I can use no Wiki policy to revert your talk page.

Additionally, I find it offensive that you deleted my "crap comments", presumably to save space, and then decided to simply Archive everything away, which would have solved the problem in the first place without resorting to rude blanking. If I am beneath your notice and unworthy of debating with, then please, by all means - simply ignore me and don't respond. Do not dismiss my comments as "crap" and then sweep the still-ongoing discussion under the rug with a convenient archive.

Anyway, onto the real issue.

Rebuttal: I never said that "running is scamming"; you are twisting my words. I said that charging money for a free service is scamming. Running is not a "free service". Doing it yourself requires any of the following: specialized skills, certain profession combination, armor (depends on area), mission completion (certain Factions and Nightfall runs), and last of all - Skill. Many people in the game can not run themselves through the Desert, or to Droks, or through Sanctum Cay, or even to Kaineng from The Marketplace (which should be a scam in itself, but I'll let that one pass).

Ferrying, on the other hand, is not the same as running. It takes you to a place that is wholly impossible for you to get to at your current state in the game. Ferrying to Cantha from Nightfall is not possible until you reach Consulate Docks, but thankfully the Ferry to Docks run is very popular. That, too, is no run - if you are being ferried to Docks, you have not reached that mission and so therefore it is no run at all (you can't run there yourself). From Cantha to Nightfall, one must go to Seitung Harbor and finish Zen Daijun. However, if you accept a ferry, a player can take you without you having to do that mission at all. Once again, not something you could do for yourself. And then of course there is the famous "ferry to The Deep/Urgoz" So as you see, "ferrying" is not the same as running. It is not a free service and therefore it is completely acceptable to charge for it - and in no way is it a scam.

The so-called "ferry" from Cantha or Elona to Prophecies, however, is not a ferry. That's a run. Nay, not even a run - it is a scam. Like I said before - ferrying is a service that you pay for because you can't do something for yourself. Every single player in the game, once they reach a "port town" (Kamadan or Seitung), can map to the Great Temple of Balthazar. And from there it is just a few clicks - bam, you're in Lion's Arch. You just did for free what some scammer would charge money to do. The point of the note is to make people aware of this and help them preserve their money. How can you argue against that?

Quote yourself: "Borrowing money without intention of returning is scamming, begging isn't."

Okay, so...you just proved my point. It is not possible to know the intentions of a scammer, and a trade is final. I don't care if a borrower swore an oath on the Bible in front of my very eyes before I gave him money - there is absolutely nothing binding about a verbal agreement, and the potential for abuse and scamming is high. It warrants a note on the page to warn players about this sad little fact.

An alternative would be to write a guide on begging. "How to tell an Honest Beggar, How to tell a Malicious Beggar - The Finesse of Judging Intent". But no, Wiki doesn't do that. We aim to benefit the Guild Wars community via our Scams article, by warning them against common pitfalls and misfortunes that occur to the average player. We tell them how to avoid them. Malicious beggars are out there. True begging is not a scam, but it is greatly frowned upon by both the Guild Wars and the GuildWiki community. Moreover, the number of honest beggars who will return your loans is not very large. It is only logical to assume, therefore, that the sensible thing to do is never loan money. It's common sense advice. It belongs in the Scams article. Yes, you are strictly correct - honest begging is not a scam per se. However you may also note that the Scams page is full of general advice; it does not only list scams. For example - it is blatantly obvious that you cannot use another player's armor or customized items when you hover over them in the trade window. And it is not a scam either - there is nothing wrong with trading the items, so long as both parties understand and accept the trade with full knowledge about the usability of the items. So, by your logic, it's not a scam and doesn't belong in the Scams article. But you know? We have notes there anyway. Why, if they are not scams? Simple - because, even though the article is labeled as "Scams", it is more than that. We aren't here to nitpick at GuildWiki about what is strictly a "scam" that breaks the EULA and can be included in the article. We are here to give blanket coverage of most general maladies suffered by the unsuspecting players in the world of Guild Wars. Succumbing to beggars falls exactly under this category. And so it fits perfectly in the article.

Finally, I'll ask you again - What is the harm in having the note? Unless I am gravely mistaken, you too are of the opinion that begging for cash is a very sad thing indeed. If we agree so far as that, why do you insist on reverting and removing the note? It does not harm anyone - beggars need to learn not to live on charity - and it will potentially help many. (T/C) 00:50, 28 April 2007 (CDT)