User:Skuld/Rational mending debate

(Originally from Talk:W/Mo Mending Wammo, then moved to User talk:Brottor)

Now, before you flame here: 'mending is for noobs'...test it! I promise you will like it :).

Brottor 05:25, 24 October 2006 (CDT)

Sigh
The following comment by user Brottor was moved from the article to here by MRA:

''This build was deleted...reason: "Don't waste time"...i talk to the person ingame...Yeah, lots of people hate mending, TEST IT. Fuck i hate people who will down something before testing it!!! I don't know how this person has the power to delete, i know he/she shouldn't, though. Ingame i asked him/her to test it- the response was "i said 'dont waste time'"... ... i offered a 1v1 challenge, to show me a better warrior build. Decline and dodge, Why? Scared to face the truth...I'll get suspended for addng my own section probably, or this will get deleted...But as long as somone else see's the build, and hopefully at least 1 person will test this, in Random Arenas, before it gets re-deleted, or i get suspended. Anyone who does use it, lmk how it went in Discussion.''


 * 1 vs 1 proves nothing. Here is the tested paladin W/Mo Full Vigor Paladin, as you can see it is very similar. &mdash; Skuld 07:28, 24 October 2006 (CDT)


 * 1 vs 1 proves everything. I asked you who you rely on, yourself or your team...you said yourself, the correct answer, for Random Arenas. Now, if you're only relying on yourself, you should be able to keep yourself alive, as well as deal enough damage to kill the oponent right? Therefore the last man standing has the "better" build? Brottor 20:55, 24 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Wait, what? Last I checked, Random Arenas was 4v4, not 1v1. Plus, if you want to run a 1v1 Warrior build, try a Riposte build.&mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 21:06, 24 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I asked him to show me a better build than mine..he agreed that in Random arenas, you should sustain yourself well, as well as deal damage...whoever does this better has a better build...I'm using Riposte, but nothing else of that sort. Oh and he couldn't seem to show me a better build so, yeah. Brottor 18:51, 25 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Can you explain why mending is good mathematically? Afterall, the game is based on calculations.--210.3.39.32 18:55, 25 October 2006 (CDT)


 * At 8 Healing Prayers, it's hp/energy ratio tends toward 18 (in time). To top that, a 5 energy spell has to heal for 90 and a 10 energy spell for 180. Does that make mending shit hot. No, it just means number can say whatever you want. --Theeth (talk)   19:31, 25 October 2006 (CDT)


 * At 8 healing prayers, mending heals 6 hp per second, so in 10 seconds you heal 60 hp. I don't care if the energy efficiency is decent. 60 hp per 10 seconds is a joke. --210.3.39.32 19:42, 25 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Wooosh! - noun - Sound a point makes when it goes right over someones head. --Theeth (talk)   21:10, 25 October 2006 (CDT)
 * You've made a point, but gave no logic or examples to back it up. How can mending be better than 1: Healing Signet, 2: Live Viracoulously, 3: Vigoros Spirit? For the latter two, you must assume the warrior hits very infrequently for mending to be a better choice, which means no IAS, no multi-attack skills. Then you have healing signet which costs no energy, no enchantments stripping, etc. Okay, now give me that example where mending is better. Outside of running and farming, which this build was not build for. --210.3.39.32 21:47, 25 October 2006 (CDT)
 * My point was exactly that: Mending is NOT better, whatever the numbers might be made to say. Double Wooosh... --Theeth (talk)   22:10, 25 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Your point was ambiguous, but seeing as you replied to me when I asked people to explain why mending was good, I can only assume that you're trying to do that, or at least prove that it's not bad.


 * Mending allows you to activate it in the beginning, regenerate your energy, and have +3 health regen at no cost, is that bad? No. The problem with Live Vicariously is Vig spirit is already used in this build, and blind put simply: Owns you. Healing signet, while under focused fire you can't heal! Mending mixed with Vigorous Spirit allows you to setup BEFORE the fight, BEFORE you take any damage, it's like protecting yourself with healing. It allows you to constantly attack, without quit, constantly damage, constantly build andrenaline, constantly gain life, constantly pwn. Mathematically- Mending = 3 health regeneration pips, each pip gives +2 health per second. 3*2=6, per second... which doesn't seem like much, but it sure beats the hell out of signet, eh? Signet-Mathematically-+115 health, after 3 seconds and -40 armor...Mending vs Sig: Battle start -> fight fight fight -> Sigger gets down to half, mending at ~ 3/4, Sigger uses Healing Signet -> Galrath slash, oh noes you just lost all your healing! i gained 18 while that happened, hey and some andrenaline! -> Mending kills Sig with a Final Thrust during Sig's sig. Edit- Teeth, test the build::

Sever, Final, Vig spirit, 100 Blades, Galrath, Rez sig, Riposte, Mending; 12 swords, 8healing, rest in 9str, 9tact; Teeth, TEST the build, THEN come talk. Brottor 01:49, 26 October 2006 (CDT)


 * FYI, armor only applied to BASE damage, so galrath's slash and normal slash is exactly the same. Warriors are weaker versus degen, untyped, or armor ignoring damage more than anything, so heal sig is a small issue. What? You're a warrior who attacks other warriors? And who told you to use heal sig while under attack or at half life? Test it on WHAT exactly? Riposte is a huge advantage, but I can kill you 1v1 with most builds, to be sure. Even WITH Riposte, which is an unfair advantage as I usually won't hit you in a real game, but am forced to because you want a 1v1. 1v1 DOES prove nothing about the build itself, as Skuld said, but it does prove that your claims are wrong, so I'm fine with testing it with every one of my, uhm, 14 characters and 30 or so builds. HB is stupid for PvP, by the way. Heal sig take skill to use, know that? At least run away. You're a warrior, you have a goddamned speed boost for a reason. 2.75 seconds means 2 hits at most, except healing signet costs no energy, allowing you to spam IAS much more often so the time lost is gained back. Blind? Blind? Guess what? 1 arrow from a ranger will make mending useless. By the way, the paladin deals decently in RA and especially in AB. If you want a good PvP Wammo build, try a W/any build, an Empathetic Paladin, or at least the Holy Hammer, Judge's Insight/Signet/SoH, Succor, something like that. Mending is a simple joke, it's like saying bleeding is a dangerous condition. When's the last time anyone used sever for more than a Gash prerequisite? Yes, I can beat you 1v1. If you want proving, or a witness, we can do that, there is a guild wiki guild right now. --Silk Weaker 02:41, 26 October 2006 (CDT)


 * i'm on dialup, still downloading todays update....i'm more than willing to 1v1 you tomorrow, show me a better build. 'galrath's slash' and 'normal slash' is exactly the same...except for the 40 damage galrath does? 'untyped'?!?!?!?!? sig is a LARGE issue, the fact that you run, and get hit while running...then spend 3 seconds to gain life...while i gain it the entire time you run, and before/afterwards, for nothing...Test it...in THE ARENA, obv. Btw they swing at 1.75sec not 2.75, i believe :P. 'HB'?! "1 arrow from a ranger will make mending useless" ...poison i belive you mean? Mending slows the poison, if you didn't notice, it's 100% not useless. No, if you use a regular Random Arena build, you cannot beat me 1v1. Please, stop flaming without testing, i can tell you havn't tested it - cuz you're flaming. Brottor 02:55, 26 October 2006 (CDT)


 * You clearly do not understand what flaming, or trolling means, since you seem to be the one with the "?!?!?!??!?!"s and mispspellings. For one thing, +40 damage is armor ignoring, therefore whether the foe is using healing signet or not doesn't matter. The only difference is in the base damage. The fact that you failed to realize that shows that your grasp of the game mechanics is lacking, and sould attempt to learn more before deciding whether what we say is run. Running 3 secnds? You don't bring run skills huh, to cancel frenzy? 1 healing signet, even if it only heals HALF as much (due to time taken, etc), can still overheal mending. Because of less energy being used, you can fit in an IAS such as Frenzy, Flurry, or Tiger's Fury, which would be more than enough to compensate for the time spent on using healing signet + aftercast. Slows the poison? Yeah, exept healing signet can actually overheal the poison. Even with mending, you are slowly losing health, not so with healing signet. Oh, no, don't go there. Have I tested mending? +
 * Guys, I have a confession, I used to use mending. 8 months ago. Has mending been buffed since then? If not, then stop your presumptious attitude and speak AFTER you get owned. Rules: 1v1, no intentional NPC involvement, restart if that occurs. That is all. --Silk Weaker 02:59, 26 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Although it is true- Healing signet would heal more than poison would deal in 3 seconds...it is also true, that when using mending+ Vig spirit, poison does NOT hurt either. i didn't say to run three seconds, i said you run, then use 3 seconds to heal. while i gain plenty during that time healing with mending and vigorous, you say sig is free, so is mending (energy free i mean)...test this build, please.
 * As it happens, we're waiting for your connection to be good enough, since you're so confident. We're also being sad about the update... I'm crying and all that.--Silk Weaker 03:57, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Forgot to mention... WHAT? mending is ENERGY FREE? What is your problem man. --Silk Weaker 07:06, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Mending, in this buld, doesn't stall your energy at all...which is what i mean by energy free. catch me in-game for the 1v1...use an RA build, a common one...a Shock warrior i would guess. Though if you like you can go all gay with a Pro-Warrior(against, not that you're a pro) build, and well..you still won't kill me, cuz i won't attack you.... IGN- Brottor The Great, as of now downloading the second half of yesterdays update :(. oh, and even with a horrible connection i'll beat you ;). Brottor 17:53, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
 * You honestly think I'll be using a warrior? Why would I use a warrior? It's so pedestrian. For your information, I don't use gimmick builds in 1v1. I'll use all the builds that you can see on my userpage, which I use everyday in different arenas. --Silk Weaker
 * Perhaps you didn't understand corrently- i'm asking for a 1v1 warrior challenge- to see the better build, though i'd gladly fight a faggotass ranger using throw dirt crip/poison and run, whatever. catch me ingame

Don't call me fagotass. Also, you're not just going to fight warriors in RA... --210.3.39.32 21:47, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

''1 vs 1 proves nothing. Here is the tested paladin W/Mo Full Vigor Paladin, as you can see it is very similar. — Skuld 07:28, 24 October 2006 (CDT)''


 * that tested build is nothing like this, notice mending in the name of this build: it's the key skill, which the paladin seems to be missing. the paladin is PVE, this is RA (pvp) how can you tell me that somone searching for a good RA build would search the pve section? WE NEED SOME RA builds...people start posting some builds, show me better than this if you don't like it. and that build uses Gash, the most overrated pos skill eva ;P. Brottor 02:12, 26 October 2006 (CDT)


 * A Riposte build with some form of enchantment removal (hardly needed, really, but it'd do away with that "key skill" of yours) and Shield Bash just for kicks... I do believe your build loses. Though honestly, anyone who brings a Warrior into any form of PvP with the intent on beating on other Warriors really should stick to PvE. Faer 07:39, 26 October 2006 (CDT)


 * I never said that i go after other Warrior's who said that i said that? where did you read this? I'm merely saying that: Because in Random Arenas, you can't rely on getting a good team every game (rage quitters) therefore you must rely on your own build to keep yourself alive and deal damage, right? Everyone agrees with this thus far...Which would mean that a 1v1 would -help- to prove my build is better than yours, Random Arena builds... Brottor 17:53, 26 October 2006 (CDT)


 * People only use mending in solo PvE builds for a reason. If you get a good team in R/A you don't need the constant heal. If you get a bad team it can be a fun challenge but you never ever make it by using mending anyway. Sir On The Edge 18:45, 26 October 2006 (CDT)


 * /Yawn Brottor 18:53, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

INTERMEZZO: Dear God, please make them shut up. -Ichigo724 18:06, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

Oh my. I guested you and then you immediatly went offline. --Silk Weaker
 * Well after 10mb DL, dialup tends to lag, loading your hall now...Brottor 18:56, 26 October 2006 (CDT)


 * mmk i beat silk's R/Me then he said 'let me bring my sin' which is funny..cuz he switched from R/Me to R/A...i beat that. He brang an A/E "Shocker", and during the 3mb dl for it's gear i guess...he had to leave...so that's undecided, though i'm 2-0 vs his ranger[s].Brottor 22:13, 26 October 2006 (CDT)


 * ^Except I owned him on fair ground. --Silk Weaker 04:44, 2 November 2006 (CST)

Dear god, for a 1on1 with a wammo, just go (arcane echo) shadow form and bash the crap out of him. That is, if you want to go melee, if you don't care, Me/N/E can easily screw him a W over. -Ichigo724 03:08, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
 * now this guys an idiot, no offense, but, seriously read before you type...i'm asking for Regular Random Arena Builds! not Anti-Warrior bullshit. Brottor 03:25, 27 October 2006 (CDT)


 * I arcane echo in RA. I go antiwarrior mesmer in RA. I go antiwarrior necro in RA. I go airspike with blinding flash in RA. Bite me. Also: stop tossing random insults, makes people think less of you rather than the one you're insulting. -Ichigo724 03:56, 27 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Actually, I'll frag you later with my default assassin build, nothing anti-melee/warrior, nor anti-spells, really a generic build tbh. Add me to friends and whisper me ingame: "Shinigami S"; (not home atm) -Ichigo724 04:26, 27 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Also, I'll take you on with a PvP warrior when I get NF (no slots atm), I'll probably go buy it later today (as in, in 45 minutes), but if the store I'm planning on buying it at doesn't have it yet, that's going to have to wait until next week (customer card = discount) -Ichigo724 04:33, 27 October 2006 (CDT)


 * you'll try*. I'll find you when we're online....Brottor 04:35, 27 October 2006 (CDT)

Sepuku in Process
If I was under Balthazar, that is. But I'm not.

Brottor didn't beat me, though I failed. Okay, big notice, 2 Vitory Tokens to whoever guesses how that happened. I give you 3 hints.

Hint 1: I was a cripshot.

Hint 2: It had to do with a specific hall.

Hint 3: They make roads with it.

In the rules, it was stated that there should be no NPC involvement. What I left out was enviromental effects... I will take full responsibility of my stupidity, I am, however, urging you to do that test again. My stupidity has nothing to do with the validity of the build.

As for the R/A, I AoDed back once he got to half life. Reasons? Because by that time he would've had Riposte up, which would block my Repeating Strike, etc. After that, we did some shadow step chasing which involves him chasing me, and then me shadow stepping back and forth, ad infinitum, and then I left to get my other char. No I cannot kill him, not with Riposte. Without? Well, that's besides the point.

Anyway, just to gain back my pride, I will test next with 1) IW, 2) Cripshot, 3) Strike Assassin, 4) Hammer Warrior. The latter I am rather unsure about, but we'll see.

Things I will admit about the sparr: It took me lots of running, and would take a long time to kill. However, I argue that even without mending, you would've done just as fine if not better. The reason as I said is due to the 33% reduction in speed advantage I had, so I was unable to constantly hit and run. However, in that case, if you brough a more deadly combination of attacks, I would've simply died. There are pretty devastating attacks in the build, Final Thrust, Galrath, for example, although I have no idea when you got your theoretical 40 hits, since I had distortion on. Mending, however, adds nothing to this. If you had Evis-Exec, or something like that, it would be far more deadly.

Since you don't believe this, probably, we'll try it again, and I promise it won't take 5 minutes. --Silk Weaker 01:40, 27 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Hey guys i made him lose his pride :D. No, i don't believe it, Deep wound is shit. period. The world will realize this soon enough...as you will start soon. Still on? Oh yeah, and, if you really believe that Riposte is cheap 1v1, i'd be happy to switch it out for Healing Signet, but lawlz then i'll be invincable. Healing signet in a tight spot, kills you...and makes you stop! Riposte...doesn't? Which is why it's used instead of sig.Brottor 01:56, 27 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Yay, pride back. Unfair as it is, IW and Cripshot = Win.
 * Still, what does it prove? 1v1s are 1v1s. --Silk Weaker 02:54, 27 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Also, I agreed to try it since he was nice enough when we talked, and it looks really bad... I'm actually winning. I hope to god I don't get a glad point. --Silk Weaker 03:16, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Hehe, made my day just then...Tho, if you do die and get sigged, you're low on energy..I Rarely use mending after getting sigged...Oh, and don't let Vig run out...Brottor 03:25, 27 October 2006 (CDT)


 * 8 consec on the 5th run. My reality has been shattered, I need to go sleep. --Silk Weaker 03:59, 27 October 2006 (CDT)


 * The survival of a player is dependant on the skill of the player in question, not necessarily the skills that player is using. Put a new player in charge of testing this build, and see how long they last. Then average out the scores. Faer 09:59, 27 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Guildwiki Humor.. lol. --Silk Weaker 09:20, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Anyways, 1 person tested it thinking it would suck complete ass...then decided he liked it...WHOS NEXT, Revolution ... Gash sucks, Mending pwns, World shall realize soon- TEST IT NOOBS. Then tell me it sucks, or that you liked it. Oh and Faer test it yourself, please, report back -_-. Oh yeah...what ever happened to Teeth? i asked him to test it, and he hasn't reponded since...Actually-Wait-No i'm not trying to say that Mending in itself is a great skill, but this build is a great build, that utilizes it...no Mending isn't great, don't start using it in every random build...Brottor 01:37, 28 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Unlike many other people, I always test a build before I comment on it. I even went so far as to tweak the build for testing purposes. It's quite funny, actually... It worked better when I dropped Mending and replaced it with Dolyak Signet. Survived longer, took less damage, never had a problem with KD. Sure, I couldn't run as fast, so kiting foes were a bit of a hassle... But then again, with Mending, you do less damage; I'd call that an even trade (except for the fact that you do more damage with Dolyak Signet in the build than you do with Mending, because you aren't wasting attribute points). I eventually removed Dolyak Signet and replaced it with "Watch Yourself!"... Again, there was a distinct rise in efficiency. I then removed the useless Vigorous Spirit (because with no points in Healing Prayers, it wasn't really working very well) and replaced it with Healing Signet. After again noticing a distinct rise in overall power and efficiency, I replaced Hundred Blades with the far superior Dragon Slash, and Final Thrust with Gash. I decided to replace Riposte with Deadly Riposte just for kicks. After all of these changes (and of course the appropriate reassignment of attribute points), I was doing much better than I ever did while testing your "build" as it was posted and supported by yourself.


 * In conclusion, while your build does work (in a way), it's inefficient, highly susceptible to enchantment removal, severely underpowered, and contains useless and overrated skills. Good day to you, from a Mesmer that looks forward to laying waste to your face should he ever meet you in the Random Arenas. Faer 18:35 (CDT)
 * Yeah....sounds like you didn't really give it a chance. It's very NOT inefficient, how does mending slow dmg? You're attacking constantly instead of walking slowly at oponents. Gash deals horrible damage, for 1 extra andrenaline you can deal DOUBLE. Yes, deep wound tries to stop healing, but if fails. Because in this build you won't let the oponent heal enough...Constant pressure = Less energy to the monk(s) until they run out, and your foe is dead. As for Dragon Slash vs 100 Blades...100 Blades gains More andrenaline faster, and deals more damage than dragon slash.Oh yeah and about the mesmer laying waste to me, i'm willing to 1v1 you if you like, add me - brottor the great. I'm sure that with the right build a mesmer can take any warrior...but i'll at least show you how the build works.Brottor 17:56, 28 October 2006 (CDT)

--> (New line)

Mending steals 8 attribute points which could be put in strength or weapon for extra damage. Gash is deep wound, and deep wound increases the chance of a kill. Have you ever been on the wrong end of a dragonslasher? thought not. You whine to every person above about testing the damn build, yet you spout such an idiocy as 100B gaining more adrenaline and dealing more damage. Mind boggling &mdash; Skuld 18:19, 28 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Yes...you can get like 1 more % armor penetration, wow an extra .001 dmg or so. Yes i've been on the 'wrong end' of a dragonslasher, they don't hurt this build...care to test?Brottor 18:26, 28 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Protector's Strike. You're ignoring the nearly unbroken Dragon Slash -> Sun and Moon Slash -> Dragon Slash -> S&M etc onslaught. Please answer how this can possibly compete with that. Here is an area bar for reference:


 * &mdash; Skuld 03:40, 29 October 2006 (CST)


 * The constant 100B Galrath Sever easily beats it...Galrath and 100B deal a lot of damage, Dragon doesn't well it does...but it costs 10 :P. Either you can have them at or less than half by the time you build up 10 adrenaline and Final, for over 100, or you can have them at ~3/4 and deal weak 40's with dragon, you're choice. i'm still up for 1v1, btw in 1v1 i use riposte as little as possible, cuz yes, it'a GREAT in 1v1. If you like i'd take it out for healing signet...lol then i'll be invincable. -brottor the great Brottor 03:54, 29 October 2006 (CST)

Also, warriors aren't for 1v1s, they have no hex, condition removal, or healing. Do you use healing in HA? You only use healings in GvG or TA for splits and emergencies. RA is due to the luck factor, so this is an RA only warrior, and therefore different from normal warriors. Beating one, therefore, means very little to either arguement. I agree that strength is a weak attribute, but what about tactics? Since you use Riposte, why not buff Tactics? Then do what the above suggested, use Watch Yourself, and maybe Deadly Riposte. Hey look, you now have tactics, why not use Healing Signet? And since you don't need W/Mo anymore, why not use W/N and use Quivering Blade with Plague Touch? Like This:

Something like that. Dual riposte to cover healing signet maybe, I don't know. Mending is good, but it became obsolete when my group didn't have 4 or at least 3 offensive characters. --Silk Weaker 01:47, 29 October 2006 (CST)

In my defense, I didn't say I like it, I'm saying that I'm surprised by the results, which could be a)luck, b)it is good/better than I expected, c)a combination of a and b.--Silk Weaker 01:40, 29 October 2006 (CST)


 * Lol or d) the build is good. Personally i use a RP char to pvp, cuz my armor looks cooler and i can 'I'm weilding a Sundering Fellblade of Fortitude and an Exalted Aegis.' which is just 300% more awesome than 'I'm weilding a pvp sword'. -_-. My aegis has 9str req, so that's why i run 9 str... Swordsmanship and Healing are the only really needed things in this build. The Str is just for aegis as the tactics is just for Riposte, which is mainly a defensive manuever, though it helps on offensive quite a bit. Deadly Riposte costs energy, Sever artery is 20x better. And still i argue that the fact that you stop to use healing signet sucks complete ass, and is the complete downfall of the newly posted build. I'll attack your monk until i need to heal and allow him to heal too Yay, wasted my time! Or Attack monk while he heals and uses energy, then dies. Erm, i forgot to mention Sever > Deadly because you can sever monks, but you can't deadly them. (as well as other casters) Brottor 02:13, 29 October 2006 (CST)

Yay another glad point, hehe just thought i'd say that. Brottor 03:54, 29 October 2006 (CST)


 * Gladiator point in RA? I congratulate you and your random team. Please read the above about dragon slashers &mdash; Skuld 03:58, 29 October 2006 (CST)
 * erm the one i already responded to? yeah in ra, i don't ta. thus far this builds given me 6... Brottor 04:33, 29 October 2006 (CST)
 * Fucking bitch dialup, now i'm mad, i had 2 glad points in a row coming(diff ra teams not ta).... and i fucking dropped, GGGGGGGGGG team.......everything just died before us...and i fucking dropped. now i'm mad. Skuld you gonna continue barking without bite? 1v1 me what have you got to lose? Pride? pussy, dodge. I told you i use Riposte as little as possible to make it fair. Scared to lose to mending? - Brottor The Great Brottor 04:33, 29 October 2006 (CST)


 * Sigh got 9 consec then we lost...lmao not have a healer sux. when you get spiked :(. Actually that suonded REALLY stupid...so i wont' edit it rofl.Brottor 06:06, 29 October 2006 (CST)


 * Weee another glad point ftwBrottor 06:06, 29 October 2006 (CST)
 * Weee another glad poitn ftw, that's 3 tonight...it's 5am i'm gonna go to sleep Night guys, Test the build plx.


 * You do realize that, not only do we not care (read - are not impressed by) your Gladiator Points, but we have all probably gained at least twice as many in as much time with the builds we have mentioned above? Your bragging is making you look like a fool. Also, as to your desire to duel me that you displayed earlier, I won't waste my time defeating a Warrior who can be beaten by the same tactics I would use to kill off a caster. I've seen how your build works, and I know that against a Mesmer, it just doesn't. Being left without healing or a way to deal damage must suck... Wouldn't have even brought that up, to be honest, but I had a feeling you'd bring up the fact that I never took your challenge in the future, should the need for a scapegoat arise, as you have done once before. Faer 13:54, 29 October 2006 (CDT)
 * OH NOES HE MAY TALK ME TO DEATH, pussy dodge more plx thx. With the bulid's mentioned above(thought up on the spot i do believe) if they are so good, they should beat me? Prove it then. As i said Riposte is an unfair advantage i use it as little as possible. The truth is, i gain more life and deal more damage, and you know it. You just don't want to admit it, pussy dodge, plx. Brottor 18:46, 29 October 2006 (CST)


 * Oh no, he may break our brains with his horrible grammar, spelling, and foul language! What shall we do? Look, Brottor, when a Warrior can be shut down by three skills that many Mesmers carry into battle to defeat casters, there is a problem. You complain that we don't test your build, and give it a chance; we have tested your build, and we gave it a chance, and then we went above and beyond the call to help you improve it. All you can do is gripe and moan, and let's not forget the foul insults you are so fond of typing. The builds mentioned above have not been "thought up on the spot", as they are popular and valid builds that many players have been using for the past few months (approximately since the release of Guild Wars: Factions, and with the exception of the skill Barbarous Slice). Now, as to your cries for "proof"... Where is the proof for some of your claims? Such as the statement you made regarding Hundred Blades, and how it nets you more adrenaline than Dragon Slash. That's rather hard to believe, as Hundred Blades strikes an opponent twice, which would get you two strikes of adrenaline, whereas Dragon Slash strikes for bonus damage (which of course means that it does more damage than Hundred Blades does, but that isn't the point here, however it is related to that same earlier statement of yours, "100 Blades gains More andrenaline faster, and deals more damage than dragon slash.") and nets you a return of five strikes of adrenaline. The last time I checked, Brottor, five is a higher number than two. I haven't checked this through testing yet, but I believe that the hit from Dragon Slash actually earns you a sixth strike of adrenaline, and if that is in fact the case, then Dragon Slash not only nets you more adrenaline than Hundred Blades, it nets you three times as much (which makes up for the added time it takes to start the chain of attacks, however if ten adrenaline takes you a long time to accumulate, then you must not be hitting your target). So for the cost of ten strikes of adrenaline, you will do X+42 damage, where X is the base damage from your Sword, and also end your attack with five (or possibly six) strikes of adrenaline - in an actual combat situation, this will allow you to then activate another high-cost adrenal attack, such as Sun and Moon Slash, which will do far more damage than your Hundred Blades -> Sever Artery combination. Now, I will touch upon your complaint regarding Dealy Riposte costing energy to activate. You complain about that, however you use Hundred Blades as a main damage skill and your main source of adrenaline. Hundred Blades costs five points of energy to activate. Why would you complain about the energy cost of Deadly Riposte, which also costs five energy to activate? Is it perhaps because, with Mending reducing your energy regeneration pips to one, you don't even have enough energy to properly spam Hundred Blades and Vigorous Spirit, let alone use another skill that requires energy? You rely on Mending and Vigorous Spirit to stay alive, but with your spamming of Hundred Blades, in just a few strikes, you won't have the energy to use either Hundred Blades or Vigorous Spirit, which leaves you crippled in offensive terms, and crippled in defensive terms as well. Without your main source of adrenaline gain, and without your primary healing spell, you are a sitting duck, so to speak. As I said in IRC (or was that another Brottor looking for a FoW group?), Backfire and Diversion are all a Mesmer would really need to take you down. Diversion on your Hundred Blades and/or Sever Artery would destroy your main source of damage, and Backfire would (or at least, it should) make you think before activating your Vigorous Spirit for those precious heals you are going to be needing. After that, a simple Shatter Enchantment will remove the rest of your healing and do some decent damage, leaving you with no way to heal (unless you wish to be Bacfired to death?) and no efficient way to deal damage. That's three skills, that are usually only useful against a caster. Why is your build so susceptable to shutdown by them? Moving onward, I'll ask you if you have ever seen a caster with the condition Dazed upon them. You complain about Healing Signet taking too long to finish activating, saying that while you activate Healing Signet (two second activation time), the enemy caster will also be able to heal. What you fail to see is very clear: when the caster is Dazed from the Quivering Blade -> Plague Touch combination (which is quite often in Random Arenas, your "PvP" of choice, due to the prevelance of Aegis, Distortion, and Guardian), they will take twice as long to cast their spells (read- heal themselves) and can be interrupted by the smallest nudge. This means that you can stop to use Healing Signet, and then attack them while they are attempting to heal with their double-duration casting spells. Or, you could activate Healing Signet, watch for them to begin healing, then cancel the Signet and attack them to interrupt their spell, leaving you with time to use your Signet and return to beating on a weakened foe. This tactic is called "feinting", and it's something all PvP players should understand and use. On the same note, if you were using a more powerful build (some have already been listed for you), you would be outdamaging any healing the enemy Monks could be doing. This is Random Arenas, Brottor, not Heroes Ascent. The chances of a Monk having a second Monk ready to protect him while you are raging his face are very slim. The constant, unhindered (by your own limitations, not including the presence of anti-melee builds) pressure from a Dragon Slash onslaught far outdamages your easily breakable and limited Hundred Blades attack.
 * To summarize, the truth is, your build sucks in so many ways it'd take days to list them all, and you are just too ashamed (or stupid, perhaps) to admit it. We only continue to post here because for some reason we feel the need to help you. You are either a moron or misguided; either way, it'd be wise for you to crunch some numbers and call your own bluff (stop saying "prove it" when you haven't proven anything but negative things about yourself) before you come after us. When you do lay some math out for us, then you'll have justified the need for further testing of this "build" of yours. Until then, good day to you. Faer 06:42, 30 October 2006 (CDT)
 * And just a note about the energy: the build says to use a "sundering" sword, while 1-pip of energy regeneration is 5 energy every 15 seconds. Yes, every 15 seconds. A zealous may be able to handle your build, but a sundering won't. But wait, it sounds cool when you call you call you're using a sword with a "sundering" prefix... -Ichigo724 08:43, 30 October 2006 (CST)
 * But then i would have 0 pips regenerating, which is Really stupid. Casters tend to run from warriors on their ass. And i'd gain much less energy. Brottor 22:26, 30 October 2006 (CST)

Because all the pros know that Sundering is better than Vampiric --Silk Weaker 15:57, 30 October 2006 (CST)
 * oh yeah i wanted to test vampiric.... thus far i don't think it's worth 2 health a second if they're just going to run from it and i lose more than i gain off it. However maybe on a seperate weapon set( i have fort mod and 3/1 vamp, waitin on a nice weapon to come around), and use it vs warriors in the end, who tend to run less than casters. Brottor 22:26, 30 October 2006 (CST)
 * What three mesmer skills? You mentioned Backfire in IRC which i found hilarious as to shutting this build down. You mentioned Diversion, which would do the same thing to ANY warrior build, and no mesmer would be able to diversion me to death. Blurred Vision is the third? Once again that would hurt any warrior build, not just mine. Please don't think that Blind and the likes would ONLY hurt me. When in fact they'd hurt your DSlash more, wouldn't they? You miss and gain no andrenaline and waste 10...Swords swing every 1.75 seconds right? So you start out with 100blades gaining 2 strikes of andrenaline(it starts recharging instantly for 5 seconds), you swing on the next 1.75 second(3 andrenaline now, 1.75 seconds wasted), you swing again(4, 3.5), you activate Sever(4still, 5.25), activate 100 blades Again(6), swing(7, 1.75), swing(8, 3.5), Galrath(8, 5.25), 100 Blades, Final thrust, and your arsenal starts again. Now for DSlash...ya know i hate frenzy, it's such a waste of 2 skill slots. I mean to attack at 1.1725 speed instead of 1.75, and have no big moves besides dragon slash, and to think you can kill somone is just Lol worthy isn't it? Anyways, now for DSlash: Attack(1 andrenaline), Attack (2 andrenaline), Attack (3 andrenaline), Attack (4 anrednaline), Attack (5 andrenaline), attack (6 andrenaline), Barbarious strike (6 andrenaline), attack (7), attack (8), s&m<- i like this skill but i don't have factions mixed lol :( (10 andrenaline), Dragon Slash (5 andrenaline), Attack (6), Barbarious...Etc. As for actually IN PLAY...Monks, Eles, Mesmers, Rt's, necros, etc, Run from you right? Thus allowing the 'super speed for everyone to use 2 skill spots for' fade away.... While it charges 100Blades faster (ratio to above anyways) gaining even more andrenaline faster. And Vs Casters, each attack normally deals 30+ which is a big chunk for them, and they can't help but stop and heal on that, then you make them bleed....As for Healing, Mending and Vig allow you to chase after these people and HEAL instead of 'Healing signet, i'll wait here for 3 seconds so you can run away and heal yay yay'. Please tell me how i'm wrong here? Brottor 21:29, 30 October 2006 (CST)


 * Read my post, I told you the skills there. And just in case you missed the memo, Blurred Vision is an Elementalist Water Magic Hex, not a Mesmer spell, and if you take three seconds to use a skill that takes two seconds to use, then you just have a serious lag issue and you shouldn't even be playing any form of PvP. So much for you knowing the game mechanics, eh? The rest is probably being explained in the IRC chat as I type this, so I won't bother wasting any more time on this article of yours.Faer 03:30, 30 October 2006 (CDT)


 * -_-, i suppose i did miss that memo :(. Lmao @ three seconds. Still what's that got to do with game mechanics? nothin. Faer you've yet to explain to me why this build is bad, please continue. Brottor 02:58, 31 October 2006 (CST)


 * Vampiric is for damage, not just healing. Also, IAS is essential if you want to be competetive, otherwise your output will be 2/3 that of a normal warrior, without strength and attack skills included (Executioner's, Penetrating, Destructive/Eviserate, Bull's Strike, Protector's Strike etc). Swords swing once per 1.33, as do Axes. Diversion and Backfire aren't counters against this build. The problem of this build is nmot "easily coutnered" as much as "doesn't add enough to a team". What happens is that, if they don't have enough fire power to kill you, they will kill everyone else first then deal with you, not that anyone targets a warrior first anyway. Thing is, you don't do enough to stop it. Another warrior may KD the attackers, weaken them, or threaten them enough to force a retreat, you can't do that well enough, and that's why it's bad, not because of "counters". --Silk Weaker 03:07, 31 October 2006 (CST)
 * You don't thinkt his build deals enough damage then.....Sooooo We shall test? You be a monk, stand in position, heal yourself, while i wail on you and you die? catch me ingame if you'd like. Brottor 04:07, 31 October 2006 (CST)
 * Backfire to keep him from using Vigorous Spirit, Diversion to shut down his skill spam of Hundred Blades and Sever Artery(edited - accidentally typed "Gash" previously). It's not a conventional counter, but against this build, it would work just fine, due to the nature of the build and the player. Just thought I'd clear that up. Faer 04:43, 31 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Wow i'm such a noob, where'd i get the idea swords were 1.75? Anyways lemme recalculate...1.33 seconds per attack with a sword = .8911 seconds with frenzy. Which is really nice, But still, the damage is insuffient to that of two more skills isn't it? Brottor 04:07, 31 October 2006 (CST)


 * I don't think he has gash, but in any case, I think diversion is far more deadly on a healer. Same with Backfire. A wammo would be the last target for those spells. Yes, I guess having spells making it more prone than a usual warrior, but I don't see it as a large issue at all. --Silk Weaker 03:50, 31 October 2006 (CST)
 * Indeed, my mistake. Meant to type Sever Artery; bit preoccupied with a stressful matter right now. I shall correct that now, for the benefit of future readers. Faer 05:13, 31 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Okay, Brottor asked me to come and "test the damage" with him, and it irritated to me a lot. I used Execuitioner's Strike, Dismember, Frenzy only because I haven't capped Evis on my PvE yet (lazy). His 60 armor had more than 1/3 health when I was done, and if you want me to prove it, your stupid and can't add numbers
 * How can a build with no IAS and less offensive skills deal more damage than one with? With a normal warrior, you get the option of having a decent elite skill instead of some HB crap, interrupt, knock down, and deal more damage faster. Anyone who uses IAS knows how much more damage it adds both due to adrenaline and more hits, and they would know that a warrior without an IAS or Speed boost is (in most cases) useless in GvG and probably HA as well. I refuse to take part in this anymore. It's okay for you to say that it's better due to healing, that makes logical sense at least (and it worked for me a bit as seen above) though not much good in practice I think. To say that it has any more value aside from independance from teamates is pure naivity. Where is IAS? Where is Bull's Strike? Where is the interrupt? Where is the Deep Wound? It's an attack that lops off Base damae + X damage + 100 health from a monk (any good monk should have 500+ hp). It has less utility purpose due to space taken by an elite, and no run speed, so you hit them even LESS than simply having a slower attack speed; you can't catch up with them as much. You don't have bull's strike to knock them down when they do, and blah blah blah. Enough of this madness. --Silk Weaker 04:57, 31 October 2006 (CST)

Brottot on Zealous with mending:
 * But then i would have 0 pips regenerating, which is Really stupid. 

Again, I lol at the repeated "test this plz" whines &mdash; Skuld 16:17, 31 October 2006 (CST)

Omg, how 2 archive such a good page? It's getting huge! :P Anyway, me, with my 4 hammer skills (dev hammer, crushing, fierce and irresistable [lol]) spiked down a 80al target faster than you, and you had a headstart. I'll have to test that again, however. In response to your Zealous 0 pips shit, a zealous will outgain your pissweak energy regen every second. Specifications. At one pip, you will regain 3 energy per second. Let's use an example of 15 seconds. You'll gain 5 energy naturally back every 15 seconds. This isn't enough to spam Hundred Blades multiple times. Let's put a zealous weapon (which is INFINITELY better than sundering) into the mix. At an attack rate of 1.33 attacks per second, you'll make the 5 energy in roughly 6 seconds. Therefore, you'll almost gain double the energy to a natural regeneration rate. You're complaining about 0 energy regen. If you're not receiving any energy from zealous, please, use those 4 little slots at the bottom of your screen to change to a non zealous weapon to regenerate energy. But, as you're a pvper, you should already know this. Enjoy your day. AkumaZ 04:07, 2 November 2006 (CST)

To Brottor: Hey, I've done the whole Mending build before, nearly your exact same skills too. And yeh, it works better than you'd expect, even in PvP. Still, I believe it to be generally inadequate, as Mending just doesn't heal enough for its cost. You could be spamming energy attacks with that extra pip. If you're going to negate points from Strength and Tactics, at least put them into a more useful line such as Smiting Prayers. Viz:

W/Mo Righteous Gavel
This variant of the classic Wammo chooses to specialize in Smiting Prayers instead of using Mending and such.

Attributes and Skills
Choicees for Optional Slots

Variation A
 * Retribution
 * Holy Wrath
 * Heavy Blow

Variation B
 * Smite
 * Holy Strike
 * Balthazar's Spirit

Variation C
 * Heavy Blow
 * Crushing Blow
 * Belly Smash

Equipment

 * Full set of Platemail or Knight's Armor from Droks
 * Stonefist Gauntlets from Droks
 * Rune of Superior Absorption
 * Best Vigor rune possible
 * 15^50 Customized Heavy Warhammer of Defense/Fortitude/Shelter etc.

Usage
Most of the skills are pretty self-explanatory.
 * If using any of the enchantments, cast those first.
 * Use Staggering Blow whenever possible to maintain Weakness on the foe.
 * Use Mighty Blow when charged for damage.
 * Bane Signet, Counter Blow, and Smite should only be used when the foe is attacking.
 * Holy Strike, Crushing Blow, and Belly Smash should only be used when the foe is knocked down.
 * Backbreaker costs "10 Adrenaline", so it should be the last skill in your attack chain.
 * Since Heavy Blow causes you to lose all Adrenaline, only use it after Backbreaker and any other Adrenaline skills. Make sure the target has Weakness first.
 * Repeat ad infinitum.

Counters

 * This build has no Enchantment removal, Hex removal, Condition removal, or healing skills.
 * Sympathetic Visage, Ancestor's Visage, and Soothing Images make short work of this build.
 * This build relies on the target attacking, and is impotent versus spellcasters.
 * This build is easily outmaneuvered via kiting and snares.
 * No resurrection skill.

Variants

 * Backbreaker can be switched with Shield of Judgment.