Talk:Common scams

Trading in general v.s. Scams
Although some would say trading is not in spirit of game, if it is for purpose of selling with higher value, it can also be seen as a service in specific cases... - If you are 'scammed' while selling for profit, it is your own fault and you should investigate market better before deciding to sell. Just watch the prices going around and maybe sell part of your stash just to get feel wit the current street value.. - There are real scammers selling/buying for unreal prices (just don't decide to quickly thinking you make cheap bargin..) - There are real scammers selling for normal prices but sell different goods (yellow 'Letter to Mom' intead of white 'Captured Son Letter') Always double check stuff using this wiki ;) - Please feel free to add more variants...

BUT... Buying goods for resell does not have to be scamming. The sell and buy at reasonable prices you just provide service to people that do not want to wait long for best buyer/seller.... That is a service that is payed for in form of the profit the reseller makes.. In the end it is al about fair trade and ethics in doing so...

So Please do report unreal prices here as well as known scamms for others to learn from...!

Kaineng Run Scam
Has anyone noticed the mass amounts of people trying to get people to pay for runs to Kaineng Center from The Marketplace? I can't tell if these are scammers or uninformed newbies.
 * Either way, it's still a scam. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 01:01, 20 June 2006 (CDT) )
 * Actually, it isn't a scam since they finish the run like promised. It is a rip-off though. &mdash; Galil  08:57, 22 June 2006 (CDT)

I dont know if it's mentioned here, but this one I almost fell for: a guy goes around in town spamming "WTB Amulet of Mists, WTS Some green item noone wants", I ask him how much he's willing to give for a amulet and he responds: 50k which is imo a very high price for a amulet, so I open tradescreen with him and put up the amulet, he put up 50k and the green item, it was a pretty unwanted green so I thought he included it as a bonus just to get rid of it and hit accept. Then he asks: green or money? Of course I respond money and he closes tradescreen, open it again and put up 50g. Appearantly he himself fell for the scam and tried to justify scamming by scamming his money back from other innocent people.

In general scammers are giving a very good deal that's hard to resist (because they dont intend to give you anything they can just as well make it more tempting for people and additionally it makes you want to do the deal quickly before he gets a better offer) and tries to confuse or distract you. Never do big trades when you are stessed and always doublecheck everything. If anything is unsual then be extra careful.


 * Indeed it is listed (List of popular scams). This seems to be a very common one. I was surprised when I saw a player in 15k-armor trying this once. Granted, armor has nothing to do with it, but it just doesn't seem right. &mdash; Galil  08:57, 22 June 2006 (CDT)

Jade Orb Value
Just to verify, this is trade channel value, correct?
 *  During the Dragon Festival 2006, 250 Jade Wind Orb are required to trade for a Ceremonial Dragon Mask. The value of an orb is roughly 60g or 250 for 15k .

I didn't see a value with merchants or material traders. I wanted to confirm before removing the listed values. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 00:10, 3 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Nevermind, verified it's trade channel value. Cleaning up that text now in article. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 00:20, 3 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Wait, what? Why are we listing the trade value of something?  --68.142.14.34 00:21, 3 July 2006 (CDT)
 * We aren't - someone had added that text; I was verifying it was trade value infor before removing it. Verified, it was, so the text is gone. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 00:24, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

Dragon Mask
Is it necessary for this item to have its own section? It might as well be a sub-section for armour, along with other event-equipment. Having said that, I believe the game still gives you a warning that the item is, in fact, customized if and when you attempt to trade it. I'll keep my personal opinions about the people (who, in the light of such a warning, still click "accept") to myself. --Black Ark 14:46, 5 July 2006 (CDT)

Free money if you can find me-scam
I don't think this is really a scam...Me and my guildies sometimes use to go to Kaineng Center(everyone to different Districts) and start to shout everyting like "Free Money to first one to whisper me!" and the like. It's just fun to get people "lol'd" as we say it. And everyone I have "lol'd" have been more amused than angry.&mdash;
 * Whatever it is, it certainly shouldn't go in the section it's currently in, which is for non-scams and out-of-game scams. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 02:35, 11 July 2006 (CDT) )
 * You make a promise to give away free money, but then fail to deliver. Gussy it up however you want, you're still misleading people. Sure, maybe some of them "lol'd", but other players might feel ripped off, and rightly so. A proud day for you and your guild. --Black Ark 06:41, 11 July 2006 (CDT)

I don't think this is so much a scam as a boast at times. I see this alot in Kaineng Center from people who have beaten the game and have gone through the portal that accesses the upper balcony of Kaineng. The point is, you can't get to them.--&mdash; xis10al   21:31, 11 July 2006 (CDT)
 * This actually really annoys people like me who genuinely run games of hide and seek with gold/item rewards from time to time (Such as when I went around Ascalon during the Dragon Festival giving out Rice wine and Bean cakes) -it's a fun little game to play with people and they get something good out of it. People who do this spoil it for the rest of us. --Sunyavadin 15:23, 8 August 2006 (BST)
 * The same happens in owned outpost and cities. Some dull minded jockers stay inside the fence and say the'y give rewards to anyone getting there. Of course that is impossible being outside the alliance that controls the outpost. The case is that they don't usually gibe the price even to ones inside that alliance entering the private zone. That proves they were just lying. Mithran 07:25, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

I dont think it is a scam either for that matter. because I've been in droknar's forge and said "70K to the first person that can open up trade, and accually gave the money away. mostly because i had no need for it and the person i gave it to was someone i knew, go figure.  --Dc Tanks  23:50, 8 October 2006

Well, there are some people who annoy/scam people with tricks like that, but there are others who actually do give stuff away. For example; I was in Ascalon, and there was a guy would would call out a number, and the first person to trade with him who was that lvl got that number of platinum. (I got 20k) --Enishi

protect this page
this page needs protecting after yet another vandalism. --Jamie  09:00, 10 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I think setting up this page to work like Title would be good. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 02:32, 11 July 2006 (CDT) )
 * I think that a similiar protection should be used as the finnish wikipedia used during the eurovision song contests for Lordis page. Prevent anon edits and edits from user names that have been created during the last few days. Same protection for the title article. Creating a user name is very fast and the current protection does not really prevent spontaneous vandalism, but a thinking time of 3-4 days would. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 03:07, 11 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Sounds like a plan --Jamie [[Image:Jamie.jpg|24px|(Talk Page)]] 04:34, 11 July 2006 (CDT)
 * can you protect agian? [[Image:ST47logo.jpg|User:ST47|50px]] (talk) 19:31, 23 July 2006 (CDT)

Buying Monastery Credits, Imperial Commendations, Luxon Totem or Equipment Requisitions
It is all to common to see "WTB your imperial commendations* 100G each" spamming across several chat channels. Though not a scam, it is an exploitation of players unaware that 5 Imperial Commendations trade for Superior Salvage Kit (SSK) which can be sold to merchant for 1K. The Simple math is 5 for 1000g = 200g each. These "Buyers" are attempting to double their money with almost no effort (Make Purchase> Trade for SSK > Sell to merchant> Done!) which is certainly not in the spirit of the game. Sadly, it is so easy, we will probably never be rid of this rip off tactic or the incessant spamming "WTB your imperial commendations" which to me equals "Want to RIP YOU OFF BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW BETTER"

Don't be duped!


 * Insert Monastery Credits, Luxon Totem or Equipment Requisitions
 * Well, what's really the situation with Monastery Credits? I buy them at roughly 125g to trade them for Hunter's Ale (drunkard title, here I come :) And 125g is about as much as the original player would save by teleporting to the Monastery everytime they need a identificitaion/salvage kit. But I doubt many would want do that. So, fair price? Because it seems as if the above comment implies that they should not be sold for less than 200g and that would mean buying them is pointless unless for *using* the +50% XP scroll, which might have a trade channel value of, say, 300g (compared to the +100% XP right now at the merchant for 700g). But I don't know if there is a (large) market for +50% scrolls, certainly haven't seen anyone selling them in Lion's Arch and if I were really that interested in XP from PvE (and have finished all quests that give XP ...) I would use the +100% because by then I should be able to afford that. Sure, you can sell a few +50% XP scrolls, but you still have to do the work and carry around the remaining 20 monastery credits. --Ts (I'm too stupid to set a link ... )


 * Note also that you can't get Superior kits with Monastery Credits. Just the Canthan/Kurzick/Luxon rewards. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 12:44, 30 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Well, considering that the values for Monastery Credits, Imperial Commendations, Battle Commendations, and Kournan coins on the scam page contradict the values listed on the individual pages for those items, I've edited the values here to match. 200g and 300g were each 100g too high, as the above comments and the info on the item pages confirm. There's no support for the higher values that I can see. Now, whether it's worth it to sell them is a different issue, unrelated to "scams". HarshLanguage 20:49, 20 November 2006 (CST)

Trade Contract scams
This is very much same like the Monastery Credits scam in Factions. It's spammed all over in Kamadan, Sunspear Sanctuary and Kodash Bazar. These people try buying off your trade contracts for low price and then trads them for a ruby/sapphire. Yes, you can trade 3 for a key or 5 for a sup salavage kit... but you can also trade 7 for one ruby or sapphire. Always check jewel values before selling. --Lyrika 01:44, 14 November 2006 (CST)

"Auto-accept scam"
Cilvaa posted about a scam that he (she?) described (I'm paraphrasing) as "if you submit an empty offer before the other side submits an offer, the side actually submitting an item need not click accept for the trade to happen, only the empty offer side needs to click accept." I tested this out and could not get it to work at all. I tried various permutations (who starts the trade, order of clicking/moving items within the manner Civlaa described) with no luck. Reverted the edit. --68.142.14.45 05:07, 18 July 2006 (CDT)

Gold Chest Scam ERROR
The phrase "An unopened chest can contain gold or purple items, but once opened, it will produce the same color for everyone." is wrong. I see for 2 times (2) in Urgoz Warren a chest dropping a Purple to first man, and then all gold items to the rest... and for 2 times the desperation of the unlucky first... poor him.

Some consideration: &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.94.130.72 (talk &bull; contribs) 11:33, 25 July 2006 (CDT).
 * I don't know why it happens
 * I think it will be very funny if... this is punishment to chest runners! Making an elite mission fail for a stupid run is the most hated case of the game.
 * In normal cases, a chest revealing purple won't be used more than once. Why I see those 2 cases? 'cause in Urgoz people seem to share a "chest runner instinct"!!! When a chest is approchable, many hurry to open it. Noobness in elite missions, too.
 * possibly a farm mark? --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 11:40, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I think not. A chest farmer is a man aware of the chest quality issue. Add that Deeproot Keys cost is 1.5k. No, I think a farmer will be the smarter one that wait 2 or 3 items before using its key. It's a matter of noob ppl that have heared "Zodiac weapons drops in Elite mission only" etc...


 * I haven't done screenshots to argument my point, because I don't know before of this error. I hope to do one in future, or someone can make one now it knows what to look for.
 * The scam continues to be valid (someone can drop items near chests) but the hypothesis of "chest omogeneity" must be dropped in my opinion
 * Instead, I suggest to highligh the fact that a dropped-item-from-you is no more binded to you ("Assigned to..."). Apart the fact you can steal it (!), it's easy way to know it's not a chest drop.
 * i'm having a bit of a hard time following you. are you sugguesting that, contrary to ANET's statement and months of testing, chests do not always produce the same quality items or that people are dropping gold items near unopened chests to get people to open them? --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 12:10, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
 * [[Image:http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/4876/gw179cf3.jpg:::here the proof (Deep mission)]]
 * The last point is a idea (from me) to provide a way to identify this type of scam. The fake item can be recognized as I suggest.
 * Yes, against all of us, I see this phenomenon 2 times. And today I asked in chat (in urgoz outpost) and voilà, other ppl telling not only they get a purple from a gold chest, but they get a purple when being the 2nd,3rd,4th,etc man opening that chest. Not only the first one. I'm starting to think... a Bug? &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.94.178.65 (talk &bull; contribs) 20:57, 25 July 2006 (CDT).

I believe this point is kinda moot with the Nightfall update, making chests completely and truely random

"Factions" scam
I noticed Sarah reverted the anon's edit (blanking) of the "Rare" Factions Items sub-section. However, I actually agree with the anon, that section is no longer remotely needed and is just cluttering the article. I say axe it.
 * "rare factions items cheep" is common in lion's arch. perhaps it should be generalized to cover the upcomming nightfall campaign? --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 12:14, 30 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I agree competely. Best to give it a general heading for the sale of common items in any situation as "rare". Cases in point: Selling easily farmed Factions items in LA, and selling commonly dropping event items for extortionate prices to those who don't know better (Like the people who were selling jade wind orbs for 1k+ each)... Sunyavadin 15:31, 8 August 2006 (BST)

Nightfall scams
With the near upcoming of Nightfall, new scams may appear. We can foresee some of them, like the alreay added ones that we know from factions (Buying Quest Reward Items for low prices and Impossible/Unnecesary Runnings), but other may be new. Once Nightfall is out, we may have to add scam warnings. Here we can make a list of possible scams we have to test before adding them:
 * Heroes can use customized items, but ONLY those customized for their 'master' character, not for other account of character, even if they are in the same account.

this page is getting long
long and ugly. perhaps it needs a filtering? way to much boldface. --Honorable Sarah 09:04, 8 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Yea, some cleanup is clearly needed. The bold should be reserved for headers, not used in the body of each section.  It also looks like several entries could be consolidated as they're just multiple flavors of the same scam. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 09:07, 8 August 2006 (CDT)

I've done what I could to clean it up by splitting it into subsections. I'm sure more fine-tuning and pruning of those is called for. -- Bishop [ rap|con ] 12:13, 8 August 2006 (CDT)

Misc Scams
"When you do a run ALWAYS ask for the money outside the outpost or town beacuse they might of put it back in storage and tried to scame you and demand paying zones so they pay during the run so they can not scame you and you can aske them to pay you in the zone before getting to the destination...." I'm afraid I'm too tired, but can someone please PLEASE clean that up. The ridiculously high concentration of grammar problems and AOLerisms is too much for me this late in the evening RossMM 17:25, 20 September 2006 (CDT)

When it comes to running...I always use this method.. "Running To Sanctum Cay=2k(1k @ ToA/1k @ FH)-" This is from LA with all stops(if needed)..I take payment in ToA and FH...I have had mostly good ppl so far that have always paid...so far. Also I find it helps when ppl pay to say it in chat.."Blah-Blah paid" and so onDeadlyknights 14:06, 16 October 2006 (CDT)

Unidentified Armor
With the new salvage system you can get the rune out of an unidentified armor part and the armor is still blue, purple or gold. But when you identify it you get only a white armor part. You can not see if someone has already salvage the rune out of the armor. --Trilo 05:36, 31 October 2006 (CST)
 * Wouldn't the value show up if the salvage armor part had been identified? Or am I too tired and not remembering correctly? In any event, however, I agree that the color of ID'd and rune-salvaged armor not changing is a problem. HarshLanguage 20:41, 20 November 2006 (CST)

Mixed Dyes
"Don't ever buy mixed color dye such as Gold; Dye looks different on every armor set in the game."

I don't think that this is true anymore as of the 10/26/06 update; dye should look the same on any armor. Perhaps this entry should either be removed or updated to specify not to buy them if you have armor crafted before the update.--Quaestor 12:08, 3 November 2006 (CST)

Wrong. Try to dye a newly or even old crafted Krytan elementalist armor with Silver+Yellow. This mix will make a 'gold-like' color in some armor (like paragon ones) but will make a cooper-like pale color in the Female Krytan Elementalist. You need to add green to get something like gold in that armor. Even it is true that you cannot mix dyes without the dying panel, old mixed dyed are still in some Storage and Inventories... and people may be still wanting to sell them. Basic dyes look very alike in all armor now, but mixing them still is different. Maybe in the next mayor update they change de basic textures of all armor to fix that, but currently they are still with they base colors. Just look Elonian Dervish armor, you'll see some blue spots, specially in the hood. Mithran 20:28, 16 November 2006 (CST)

Actually, is there any mixed dye exist since the new dying system? edem 09:53, 24 November 2006 (CST)

Begging
I think it's okay to give 50g to a player that needs to unlock Storage. After all, what's a mere 50g? The best advice is really just to use your Common Sense. If someone asks for 10 plat or something, be wary. If they ask for a little gold, a few free materials, etc. then what's the harm? It's true that there are some beggars out there that are not actually poor. But on the other hand there are lots of poor newbies out there that need some help.

Oh, and I'm putting the advice back in that you shouldn't try to catch people for money, it's a valid point. Entropy 02:40, 24 December 2006 (CST)

Festival Hat Maker
I have just experienced somebody to try to sell a festival hat. I argued that it cannot be used because it is armor adjusted to the char. He answered that you could get it remade by the festival hat maker and andmitted that his hat cannot be worn by a buyer. On one hand this is a normal armor scam, but on the other hand there is something new to it. I would suggest that somebody would check how to add this information: "the hat maker can ONLY redo your OWN hats". Michael57 10:27, 1 January 2007 (CST)

"Illegal"
I removed an incorrect use of the word "illegal" from the miscellaneous section, in the trading/selling account keys item. It's not illegal, it's against the User Agreement. That's a contract, not a law. — HarshLanguage 18:15, 14 January 2007 (CST)

Scammers using the wiki
I've known that this happens sometimes. People put information about item values in articles, which are clearly false, in an attempt to scam people in game. Now I encountered a new type of scam which didn't involve editing the wiki at all. See for yourself: -- (talk) 08:48, 19 January 2007 (CST)


 * Lol, what a dweeb. he probably meant guru &mdash; Skuld 10:19, 19 January 2007 (CST)


 * Should this comment really be in the miscellaneous section, as it clearly relates to trade even if the actual trick is done outside the game? RossMM 11:45, 19 January 2007 (CST)

Anonymous edits
I think the edits done by 131.104.163.178 are pointless, but since I'm still relatively new on GuildWiki, I wouldn't dare to revert or remove them. --Toxik 14:11, 23 January 2007 (CST)

EDIT: The user has already removed most of his/her edits.

Fiery/Icy Dragon Sword Scam
In the scamming article on the main page it says that players will dye the Fiery Dragon Sword blue and try to pass it off as an Icy Dragon Sword. If dying the sword only affects the hilt and not the blade then how is this a viable scam warning? If someone cannot make out the difference between a blue sword being an ice sword and a orange/red sword being a fiery sword.......then well, they are either really stupid or color blind. Even then, they should have read the description. Also, this may have been an edit by ANet to curb scamming on this item. If so, I think we should remove the scam from the list.--Old Man Of Ascalon   (T/C) 02:35, 24 January 2007 (CST)
 * It (used to?) changes the icon but not the actual color when held. --Fyren 02:48, 24 January 2007 (CST)
 * Can anyone confirm this as of recently?--Old Man Of Ascalon [[Image:25px-Poiso.jpg]]  (T/C) 04:07, 24 January 2007 (CST)
 * To be honest I'd never even heard of this "scam" before reading the idea here. I've never heard nor seen it and I'm inclined to believe it's jumping the gun. Don't warn against a scam if it doesn't exist (much). Entropy 04:38, 24 January 2007 (CST)
 * I don't think I've even seen anyone ever attempt to sell one of these swords, much less scam it. I vote for admin review to see if we should remove it.--Old Man Of Ascalon  [[Image:25px-Poiso.jpg]]  (T/C) 06:32, 24 January 2007 (CST)
 * I removed the note from the article as no one has defended it. No admin is needed for stuff like this. Administrators don't have extra powers over content. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 14:28, 24 January 2007 (CST)

section removed
I removed the section for Hoaxes, as the article it links to is a redirect to a subsection of List of popular scams/Miscellaneous scams --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 17:24, 20 February 2007 (CST)

MiniPig from Canthan New Year
I updated the information because the Canthan New Year event is now over. Should it be removed from the front page of the scams page? Atma 23:21, 24 February 2007 (CST)
 * I just added it to go along with info about minipets not coming from the Wintersday presents, but that doesn't really make sense now that you bring it up, since there are plenty of others you can get in other ways... ~ [[Image:GeckoSprite.gif]] Pae 01:27, 25 February 2007 (CST)

Cleanup of scams
I cleaned up several of the item scams listings. I'm not sure what the barbed sword hilt scam is supposed to be, though... are folks buying barbed hilts thinking they're rare? I've never seen that. I also noted that the list doesn't even correspond well anymore to the main article. I think we should look at combining the pages again, because the main scam pages don't add much useful info and are just duplicated effort and often go unmaintained. Also, shouldn't this page be called "List of Common Scams", not "Popular Scams"? I daresay these scams aren't popular at all! =) — HarshLanguage 08:59, 2 March 2007 (CST)


 * List of common scams would be a lot better name indeed, but I don't want to update all of the links now, I'll go to bed instead. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 16:59, 3 March 2007 (CST)
 * I'm happy to do the move and edit the links, leaving the current page as a redirect of course (at least until the main page was updated). Would naming it simply "Common scams" be any better than "List of common scams"? And would the subpages be moved automatically or would I need to do each separately? I've never moved a page with subpages. — HarshLanguage [[Image:qswearing_small.png|HarshLanguage]] 23:08, 4 March 2007 (CST)


 * People are buying barbed hilts for the standard trade channel value, when the scammer obtained it very cheaply from the collector. Not technically a scam, just unfair trading.Atma

Minipet "Origin" Clarification
Regardless of its wording, I think that we should keep the information that Birthday Presents aren't the only way to obtain minipets, if only for new players who may be unfamiliar with them. ~ Pae 12:32, 4 March 2007 (CST)
 * The thing is, the specific acquisition information is all in the Miniature article, as it should be. The minipet item on the scam list is for the "Winter Gift/Wintersday Gift instead of Birthday Present" scam specifically. We link to the minipet article in the scam listing, so I think that scam listing does what it needs to do: point out the scam and let the reader hop over to addtional info. Otherwise, the scam listing would need to be updated every time a new minipet acquisition method was introduced (which is fairly often recently!). However, I went ahead and reworded the scam listing to say that minipets can come from non-gift sources (without listing those sources). — HarshLanguage [[Image:qswearing_small.png|HarshLanguage]] 15:32, 4 March 2007 (CST)

Article Moved
I've moved the article and its subarticles to Common scams, a clearer name than "List of popular scams." There was no opposition to the move when I suggested it above a few days ago. All links from other mainspace articles have been updated as well. — HarshLanguage 13:28, 7 March 2007 (CST)

Never buy a weapon or offhand just because someone says it has a popular skin. If the stats are poor, the object is worth little regardless of the skin on it.
PFFFFFFT this is the biggest load of bullshit i have ever heard. Sephix axe... purple max but req 13 mods sucked sold for 100k+ Elemental swords.... regardless of the stats sell for 100k+e I think you people are beating a dead horse with all these "scams" SOME (not all) can be dealth with by means of common sense. In this case, however I felt that this portion of the article needed to be removed as it is not true at all and is infact opposite of the truth. -The Black Leach
 * I think you misundertood the purpose of that warning. A very, very few rare items have value if the stats are lousy. The vast majority of "popular" skins will only be worth anything if the mods are good. The item is attempting to warn players that buying an item for an extravagant price just because the seller tells you it's a popular or rare skin is a BAD IDEA. Which is true. Or would you like to buy a non-max req 13 Azure Shortbow 13% when hexed for 15k? It's a popular skin, after all! =) I reverted your removal, but clarified it a bit. — HarshLanguage [[Image:qswearing_small.png|HarshLanguage]] 18:20, 7 March 2007 (CST)

I like it. -Leach
 * Poor stat weapons are worthless is false. i have sold plenty of non-max dead swords

"Beware of purchasing unidentified gold salvage items. The unidentified superior rune may have already been salvaged out of it, leaving unidentified armor with no rune attached."
Is this still true? I accidentally attempted to expert salvage a purple salvage item a few days ago, and the game said it must be identified first. Issa Dabir 15:28, 19 March 2007 (CDT)