GuildWiki talk:Style and formatting/Builds

Older Stuff

 * /archive 1

Guide needs a lot of updating
This guide is seriously out of date.

Also, I suggest we add some additional clutter to the articles. You can see my proposal on User:Stabber. &mdash; Stabber (talk) 22:55, 9 April 2006 (CDT)


 * (This is a repost from Stabber's talk page, since it's more appropriate to put this here.)
 * Those templates (or, I suppose they're proto-templates at this point) seem useful. I would suggest flattening them out a bit more (so they're more like 1-2 lines of text in height) and changing up the icons a bit. That red exclamation point doesn't seem quite fitting. I'm not sure what a better alternative might be at this point, but I'll let you know if I think of anything. (Are they icons for Factions/Prophecies? Hmm, I guess we could make small ones based on the character creation intro art: how about some kind of arena-looking thing for Prophecies and an Asian-temple-looking thing for Factions?) --130.58 23:04, 9 April 2006 (CDT)


 * Very much out of date. As someone trying hard not to read Style and formatting, I didnt even know it was around. --Xeeron 07:25, 10 April 2006 (CDT)

I think the point of This build uses Prophecies-only skills is not that you HAVE to have ch1 to play it, but that you DO NOT have to have ch2 in order to. if a build contains ONLY one chapter's skills, it is not a limitation, but the thing that will allow more players to play it. I would make the This build uses skills from multiple campaigns tamplate red, while the others green, or green and blue, in addition of changing the text. Anyway, this is all very cleaver and useful. :] Foo 01:26, 10 April 2006 (CDT)


 * I really really like the idea of the templates, I (at their current state) really dislike the content and appearance.
 * First, they are to big and to bright. Unlike the big BEWARE THIS IS FACTIONS CONTENT AND NOT FINAL template, they should rather be smallish notes:
 * "This build uses Core skills"
 * "This build uses Core and Factions skills"
 * "This build uses Core and Prophecies skills"
 * "This build uses Core and Factions and Prophecies skills"
 * Then I dislike the sentence "The opinions held by the author(s) of this article are not necessarily shared by this wiki or the general Guild Wars community." a lot. This is a wiki and each article, including builds, can be freely edited by anyone. So if the opinions are not shared by you, you should change the build (or discuss it on the talk page). I would prefer something along the lines of: "There are many different builds which may or may not suit you" --Xeeron 07:34, 10 April 2006 (CDT)


 * But if I were to simply edit any article to add my pov, then I'm still leaving the article with some bias. There are many builds that I simply disagree with, but I am not going to edit them to conform to my narrow worldview. I think subjective content in the wiki should be clearly marked as such. &mdash; Stabber (talk) 14:47, 10 April 2006 (CDT)

New Infoboxes
Proposal: list the campaigns that a build requires. I have the following template suggestion: User:Stabber/build requires. To see it in action:


 * Only Prophecies


 * Only Factions


 * Both Prophecies and Factions


 * Neither campaign (!!)

&mdash; Stabber (talk) 13:58, 10 April 2006 (CDT)


 * Hello? Some feedback on the new design would be nice, or I will simply assume that my proposal is 100% acceptable by everyone. &mdash; Stabber (talk) 00:55, 12 April 2006 (CDT)
 * I would prefer making it more strict, as in "This build uses ONLY skills from Faction" and "..from Prophecies" and "This build uses skills from BOTH Faction and Prophecies campaigns, and hench require both chapters", so it will be clearer that a build is set to work in a standalone chapter, and should not be "conteninated" with skills that will constrict it to account of both chapters:






 * Foo 18:50, 17 April 2006 (CDT)


 * My earliest suggestion had some reddy boxes, but people disliked the "if you use this build you will DIE!!!!" message that such a garish color seemed to project, so I toned it down to an antiseptic blue. Furthermore, I think any such infobox we design should be future-safe, i.e., not mention "both" campaigns. My proposed template is infinitely extensible in this regard using MediaWiki 1.6 magic. &mdash; Stabber (talk) 23:39, 17 April 2006 (CDT)


 * But can you see that thing that I'm afraid of? that someone will say "Oh! that build could use the %^#%^ skill! I'll add it and just add 'Faction' to the list in this banner!". another thing is that those banners should contain a category link. a compromise could be something of the sort of:






 * Those, ofcourse, and only apearences, and the propare tamplates should be writen. I would still keep the red. Foo 03:46, 18 April 2006 (CDT)


 * I think what you are afraid of is something wikis are already good at preventing -- edits that don't fit some guideline. I think infoboxes in articles should be informative to the reader of the article, not the editor. As a reader, any part of the page that screams for my anttention will get an unusually large amount of it -- and these boxes don't need the undivided attention of a reader. Similarly, any text that cautions me in strong terms had better tell me something vitally important, and I don't think these boxes are vitally important. The worst that can happen to me is that I won't be able to play a build. I might (weakly) agree with the red version of the box with a strongly worded caution if placed in the talk page of a build article. &mdash; Stabber (talk) 10:31, 18 April 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm afraid of being looked apon as a second grade player if I do not buy both chapters. I accept the idea that this wiki is for the full GuildWars experience, but I would like us to try to prevent it from becoming the wiki of only the full GuildWars. Foo 12:44, 18 April 2006 (CDT)


 * It's a valid concern, but we can simply institute a policy that finished build articles will not accrete junk from other campaigns. I really think that policy is best handled invisibly rather than with infoboxes. &mdash; Stabber (talk) 12:49, 18 April 2006 (CDT)


 * I have attempted to address a part of your concern. Your thoughts on the new design? &mdash; Stabber (talk) 11:26, 19 April 2006 (CDT)


 * I like that. It projects the policy I would want us to have. yet, I think the font should be a little bit bigger ;] Foo 11:46, 19 April 2006 (CDT)


 * You know what, after the seperation you have made between info for the reader and for the editor, yea, this seems correct. Foo 11:48, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

On the parameters to the template
Only thing i would recommend changing in that template would be to remove the =yes and =no if it is listed it is included, if it isnt listed it isnt included.

Factions and Prophecies

Factions

Core only

This way we can add to the template down the road as multiple chapters are released, otherwise there will alot of silly page edits to do in the future. --Draygo Korvan 14:49, 21 April 2006 (CDT)


 * I have tried that, and have been unsuccessful in coaxing the template mechanism to do it. I am not sure if it is possible. If you have a suggestion on how to do it, I'll be happy to hear it. By the way, the  arguments are not required -- they're just there for show. &mdash; Stabber 14:52, 21 April 2006 (CDT)


 * You can do something like the attribute template system does which allows to have different amounts of attributes listed. Though it might be a little more difficult to get it to look the way you want it to. I imagine it is quite possible. --Draygo Korvan 14:58, 21 April 2006 (CDT)


 * Yes, but imagination is not code, unfortunately. My attempts have borne no fruit. Maybe you'll have better success. &mdash; Stabber 15:03, 21 April 2006 (CDT)


 * If you are talking of the commonly used attribute template as in here, then it does not do what you wish, but actually, it is about 4 different templates that vary the number of items included. surely, this way it can be done. Foo 15:18, 21 April 2006 (CDT)

The best I can come up with is:









BUT:


 * Arguments in wrong order


 * Invalid arguments

We can choose to live with these problems, if you desire. &mdash; Stabber 15:28, 21 April 2006 (CDT)


 * Arguements in the 'wrong order' is no real big deal as long as they are listed. Authors may then chose to order them how they like, either by what they feel is importance or relevance. Obviously the error is also of no concern, I'm pretty sure someone will come along and fix it if its a minor mistake or remove it. Its perfect now =). --Draygo Korvan 16:09, 21 April 2006 (CDT)


 * Fine, I'll update the main template with this design then. &mdash; Stabber 16:21, 21 April 2006 (CDT)
 * Now we just need to update the boxes so that the margins are the same. --Draygo Korvan 02:33, 22 April 2006 (CDT)


 * Not sure what you're talking about. Please elaborate. Is it a problem with how they show up in your browser? If so, a screenshot or two would be appreciated. I can only test with FireFox, Opera, and Konqueror here, and they seem fine for me. &mdash; Stabber 03:14, 22 April 2006 (CDT)
 * In internet explorer the background around the text is white (the table element with the campaign listing), while in Firefox it is an entirely grey background. The table is not inheriting the div's background. --Draygo Korvan 19:46, 23 April 2006 (CDT)


 * How about now, in the most recent boxes above (the ones referencing )? If this fixes it, I'll roll it out to the main template. I was not aware that IE didn't grok  . &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 19:49, 23 April 2006 (CDT)
 * Sorry for responding so late, but its fixed. --Draygo Korvan 13:21, 27 April 2006 (CDT)

Second thoughts
After seeing it on a few build pages, I'm having serious second thoughts about it. I think these boxes are poster children for instruction creep. I think we should either get rid of them or drastically change the format. &mdash; Stabber ( &#x270d; &bull; 2006-04-23 20:08 UTC)
 * Maybe they should be added some way at the bottem of the page? Foo 16:00, 23 April 2006 (CDT)

A new proposal for attribute boxes
I am not a fan of the syntax used for the attribute boxes at the moment. I have a new proposal: Template:Attributes. You can see some examples of its use on Template talk:Attributes.

I propose that we scrap the old templates and use this one. &mdash; Stabber 14:13, 21 April 2006 (CDT)


 * I will do this in a day's time if there are no objections. Object now or forever hold your piece peace. &mdash; Stabber 16:38, 21 April 2006 (CDT)


 * All right, since no one objected, I've gone ahead and transitioned to my proposed design. Say good bye to Template:2 Attributes, Template:3 Attributes, Template:4 Attributes and Template:5 Attributes. &mdash; Stabber 17:21, 22 April 2006 (CDT)

"Hench"
I think the red boxes should have the word "hence" not "hench".--Life Infusion 20:34, 23 April 2006 (CDT)


 * Those red boxes aren't being used for anything at the moment. They were just design suggestions that were not adopted. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 20:44, 23 April 2006 (CDT)

Restarting the build-stub debate
Re:
 * GuildWiki talk:Community Portal/Archive 2
 * User talk:Delia Rashesh

The time is ripe to rethink the purpose behind. Do we assume that build contributors will generally add good builds (and we weed out the rare bad build), or do we assume that build contributors will generally contribute junk (and we weed in the rare good build).?

The orthodox GuildWiki opinion on this has been: (b) make every build undergo a torture test.

Several people (myself included) think, rather, that: (a) best to assume good faith.

Time for a vote and discussion. Simple majority, and expires a week from fixing the ballot.

Vote
This ballot is not yet fixed

All new builds have to be (or similar) and undergo vetting
 * 1) (your vote here)

'''New builds are assumed good, but undergo stealth testing. Contributed builds that are found to be rubbish are ejected.'''
 * 1) Stabber 10:33, 5 May 2006 (CDT)
 * 2) --Delia Rashesh (talk) 10:46, 5 May 2006 (CDT)
 * 3) Gem (As long as everyone has the right to stub clearly incomplete or suspicious builds)
 * 4) &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 11:06, 5 May 2006 (CDT) )


 * 1) (your vote here)

Discussion
The fact that the build stub category was so big clearly indicates that the old system didn't work very well. If we want to keep the spirit of it, I wouldn't mind a "featured builds" thing, like Wikipedia's "Featured Articles", to highlight particularly excellent and well-written builds (just a few). But I definitely would rather see new articles get made and then removed if they're bad than have pages sit in limbo for months until someone actually bothers to wander through the stubs. We definitely need to change the process to make it more transparent (unless you're a regular contributor, you have no idea how the build-stub thing works: this is why someone then has to go and tag newly-added content with "stub"; the current process definitely seems to have a rep as annoying and unfriendly). &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 11:06, 5 May 2006 (CDT) )