User talk:Tupu/Build Archive/Build:Team - 55/Famine

Better Famine
To prevent getting trouble drop trap, you could have escape from slow foes. The Edge of Extinction do damage rest of foes, who runs due to AoE effect trigger. Crowley 08:58, 10 January 2007 (CST)

Discussion
I've heard someone in toa say "R famine lf 55", and that got me thinking. I'm pretty sure this is what he ment, but anyway, on our first runs we were about as fast as 55/ss, which means there is something here. the ranger's skillbar could still use some tweeking, but it's working even as it is. coldfires should be killed by rounding up the smiters around them, but due to rl issues, we haven't got to it. Foo 19:57, 27 August 2006 (CDT)
 * (I've done the tweeking needed :])Foo 22:36, 27 August 2006 (CDT)

This seems like a nice and fresh idea. I'll try this today. If it is fast enough, I might become a regular user of this build. -- (talk) 05:36, 28 August 2006 (CDT)


 * It's not faster than an SS, I've tried it, though it is pretty decent in it's own regard. It's actually slower. The casting of Famine and Ranger energy not being as abundant as necro energy hurts at times.
 * In the builds we've tried, the ranger actually didn't use Conjure Phantasm or Images of Remorse, I think those are poor choices (caster mentality). The ranger brought apply poison (placed on all targets, lat a long time at WS 16) and a res sig. --Karlos 06:11, 28 August 2006 (CDT)
 * I'll agree with the poison, but killing a sole aatxe, (when it happens that one is left), with Famine and poison will take for ever. I would keep Images of Remorse, also as a fast way to take down nightmares. and if we are talking of the UW, I think a res sig is a waste of a skill slot. Foo 06:27, 28 August 2006 (CDT)
 * I personally like to take a res sig with me, just in case, but here the killing efficiency is probably boosted if you keep Remorse and just take Apply Poison instead of Conjure. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 06:30, 28 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Yep, I've already edited it in. Foo 06:37, 28 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Whoa, I just noticed you have 12 Illusion. You do not need 12 Illusion. You need 8 or 9 so that SV and AV overlap. You're better served putting the attribute points in Expertise and having savage shot for the nightmares (instead of distracting). --Karlos 15:17, 28 August 2006 (CDT)


 * As I wrote below, I do want to start by using both. if casting them under SQ, it can be done. I would think of casting one of them a bit earlier, so even with 10 Illusions I'll get a strong start, and will be able to keep cycling them. on another note, I don't find it really usful to poison the aatxes. by the time I get to it they are half dead, and if I want to poison more then a few then it would delay the next cast of sv. I would still keep Apply Poison for killing the coldfires, which is pretty fast and easy together with Images of Remorse. Foo 16:01, 28 August 2006 (CDT)


 * What is this talk about Watchful spirit for the 55 monk? I've been trying to clean that up.

And ive noticed that the maximum number of enemies that will stay on the monk(me) is 3. Anymore than three and they will break off and chase ranger down.


 * I just noticed a slight problem with the ranger equipment section. The notes advise that he has an axe or sword of enchanting, ideally a totem axe.  However, that is a stupid choice.  The only reason a 55 monk uses a sword or axe of enchanting is because they need to use the -50 offhand.  The ranger needs no such offhand.  A famine ranger would be much better off with a 20/20/20 (with nf itme) illusion staff with 20% enchanting and +5 insightful.  That way, they would get the full benefit of the energy bonus rather then carrying an offhand since if you don't meet the requirement for an offhand, you don't get that energy, but you have no such problems with not meeting a staff requirement.
 * You use Illusion Magic of 9, so you get the full benefit from the right focus item. Foo 00:44, 19 December 2006 (CST)

SV then AV
Wait, I just realized that you are using them TOGETHER (AV and SV). I do not think that is productive. The way we used to do it is one then the other (thus Serpent's Quickness is unneeded). I just thought about your way (did not try it) and I think it would offer no advantage except to bring the enemies down to zero faster. But once they are at zero, having one of them on is enough.

The Aatxe, Smites and Darknesses all attack once every 1.3 seconds. So, from the time they reach zero energy and get damaged the first time, they will regenerated 2/3 energy in the case of the cows and the Squids and 1.3 energy in the case of the Bugs. That means that either SV or AV alone will drain them out again the next time they attack (-3 energy). When you couple that with the fact that there are others next to them attacking and draining them too, having both AV and SV on at the same time (and 12 illusion and Serpent's Quickness) is just a waste ofattribute points and skill slots.

I'd like to see if people agree with the math I just posted before I modify the article. --Karlos 15:42, 28 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Your right. I was thinking about it earlier, but I thought it was just a typo. They should indeed not be used together, but one at a time. in that case the attribute points should really be dropped. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 15:47, 28 August 2006 (CDT)


 * That's actualy right. I would still start by using them both together, to drain the energy faster. smiters would anyway die before a second cast, (and they are dying much faster then with an ss necro). I'll edit it into the article. Foo 15:56, 28 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Hmmmmmmmmmmm. yeah, I guess even at the begining you can use only one by one. I'll think about it a bit and edit it in. Foo 18:40, 28 August 2006 (CDT)


 * To speed up the initial draining, just aggro more bad guys, they will bring each other down faster. We're really just talking about 2-3 seconds difference. Also, you should place Famine and EoE (seems you removed EoE) BEFORE the fight. This takes the long casting time of the spirits out of the fight time. If the ranger knows where the next fight is foing to take place, he/she should just go set up his spirit regardless of what the 55 monk is doing. Famine will last 94 seconds, long enough to cover the fight and long enough to be rdy before it runs out.
 * The smites die faster because they actually build up energy between hits enough to be drained and damaged again. It is faster than SS if you have the spirit already set up, slower if you're starting from scratch. So, if you have a good 55 who can round up big groups, you will zip through consecutive groups faster than with an SS. --Karlos 18:46, 28 August 2006 (CDT)


 * yeah, after playing with the numbers for a bit, it does show that it's a matter of 2 or 3 seconds. that's also the right reason to use famine earlier. I dont think there are enough AP to make EoE worth while. and btw, I had a lot of fun killing the coldfires with poison and illusion degen. it wasn't too slow, and it was much less stressful then taking them together with the smiters. Foo 19:49, 28 August 2006 (CDT)

Another source
I have just found this. still, I rather keep the skillbar I came up with. Foo 21:57, 27 August 2006 (CDT)
 * I like the idea of using "Fear Me!" though, it could easily be the 8th skill in a 600 skill bar. --Theeth (talk)   22:30, 27 August 2006 (CDT)
 * I agree. I made a note of it under the skillbar. Foo 22:34, 27 August 2006 (CDT)

How will this work with the change to EoE? Is there not a better skill that could be put in there?
 * This is just the place left to use EuE. You have a group of mobs losing health more or less together. it will function as a gatherer, so that if one will die a bit before the others, he will "help" them die a bit earlier, or if one got into the agro a bit late, all of the others will "pull him down" as they go, shortening the work of degening the last single enemy. Foo 03:56, 28 August 2006 (CDT)


 * AV and SV are gonna hurt the rangers stockpile of NRG, and why not swap Power Return with Power Spike for NRG regain instead of giving the NRG back? Kanyatta


 * Do you mean drain? I shouldnt think its that much of a problem, look at SS, that spends 45 nrg straight away and it gets away with it by letting it regen between battles. &mdash; Skuld 16:03, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

Rate-a-Build
Please test and vote on new builds

Tested (favored):


 * 1) --Karlos 06:16, 28 August 2006 (CDT): Definitely works. I would change the degen skills with poison and a res sig.
 * 2) 55hp is standard stuff. Famine ranger is a slow damage dealer, but works. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 17:42, 28 August 2006 (CDT)
 * 3) works. my guild uses a Me/R variant and several other damage dealers to do spider runs --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 14:49, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Spiders or Smiters?! Foo 15:11, 5 September 2006 (CDT)


 * 1) This is a very nice build because its very simple and its consistant. As an ele monk, I wasnt able to get a SS partner because as soon as they see me not a monk, they kick me. I saw someone advertising this build and I said what-the-heck, ill give it a shot. We killed everything just as fast as a SS, a little slower on the aataxes, but faster on the smites cuz they cant remove any hexes. It all evens out. Or maybe I just got all the reject SS that were slow...Either way I give this build a 10+ for creativity and a 9 for effectiveness, since a pro SS can cut through anything very fast. I also give it a 10 for usefullness, as the creator said, rangers and mesmers can partner with monk and ele tanks in the UW now.--Hyprodimus Prime 21:34, 13 September 2006 (CDT)
 * 2) Works, but slow. :) Kalomeli 14:14, 28 September 2006 (CDT)
 * 3) Favored It's Faster than the 55/SS (Because with the new AI, 55/SS dont work good) and it's work very good. A good 50/50 ecto farmer team. benoitflageol 16:50, 25 November, 2006
 * 4) Works fine. I know this sounds weird, but works even better with Kinetic Armor/Armor of Earth/Stonflesh Aura/Mantra of Resolve/SV/AV/Obsidian Flesh/Aura of Restoration ele, with the ranger being R/Mo with Balthazar'sSpirit, MEniding, Famine &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.130.133.0 (contribs).
 * 5) I'm voting favored on this, but find it universally inferior to Build:Team - 55/Famine Redux. However, it does work. In my opinion, something should be put on the build page about the general superiority of the R/Mo version, but since not all people have all chapters, I think it is important to have multiple options available on the wiki. -- [[Image:Ranger-icon-small.png|25px]]Oblio (talk) 14:44, 4 January 2007 (CST)

Unfavored:


 * 1) It works,but SS is way faster with Reckless Haste. Lightblade 08:04, 29 August 2006 (CDT)

Discussion on Lightblades vote
True, SS is faster, but SS isn't a ranger. A ranger wanting to duo UW can either trap (really slow) or go duo with a 55hp. This makes the build valid. (This post in response to Lightblades vote below) -- (talk) 07:57, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
 * I voted unfavor as a 55 monk. I really rather be paired with a SS than with famine ranger.  It is unfavored because it's not good with what it's intended to do. Lightblade 11:53, 25 September 2006 (CDT)
 * But builds are not made for doing things in the best time and afficiancy. and some players does not have one each of every profession. builds are ment to show good or fun uses for the differant professions, and this comes to show how a ranger or mesmer could farm the uw. so I think the question should be, could people (rangers and mesmer in this case) benefit out of this build? Foo 12:40, 25 September 2006 (CDT)

Discussion on Baskins vote

 * This vote shows that the voter didn't even read the build page. It's a R/Me, not a Me/R. :D --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 02:27, 18 September 2006 (CDT)
 * My vote was based explicitly on the build "advantages" so listed on the build page. Allow me to quote for you: "A major advantage of this build, is that it lets rangers and mesmers, two professions which are less wanted as farmers, take a part in duo UW farming...". So, who was it that didn't read the build page??? Baskins 02:27, 24 September 2006 (CDT)
 * If you had read the whole build you would have noticed that there are NO mesmers in the build. I removed the mention of the mesmer from the build page. Happy now? --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 05:04, 24 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I'm sorry you have found my words patronizing, but it seems your critic belongs somewhere else, and not to the votes about the effectivness of the build. Foo 04:58, 24 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Here's my POV. I came looking for viable Mesmer farming builds. This one had the claim that a Mesmer could take part in UW farming using a Me/R version of it. It was obviously implied as an advantage. But we all know that that version has no chance to be taken seriously. So while my vote came from a secondary motivation, it wasn't altogether unwarranted. Given that you (or some reading impaired editor) has seen fit to remove that mention, the primary Ranger version is completely acceptable. And as such, my smart-ass mesmer comment has been removed from the negative votes because context is lost. But don't for a second think that this build can be toggled to a Mes primary version and still have the effectiveness you so allude to. Baskins 00:25, 6 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Hi and thanks for eplaining yourself. No offense taken nor ment. I removed the mesmer line which I had originally not seen as it wasn't true. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 00:29, 6 October 2006 (CDT)

Its effective but it takes longer than the SS/55 combo. The nice thing about it is that it gives the oppertunity to a ranger to go to the Underworld (talk)

Discussion on accepting votes
I'm not sure if this should be talked over in the policy stuff, but the above unfavored votes should not be take into account. The voters say that the build is ok, but it's not as effective as another one which uses a different profession as damage dealer. The point of the wiki is not to only accept one and only build for one use. We should have different builds with different professions for the same task, if the builds are valid. I myself am a die hard ranger player and thus this build is usefull to me, where as a duo monk build for UW doesn't. As the voters admit that the votes are unfavoursed only because the 55hp+SS is a bit faster, I suggest not counting these votes and thus promoting the build to vetted status. -- (talk) 13:30, 25 September 2006 (CDT)

Oh forgot. THe other voter shows that he did not understand the build at all and haven't tested it. There was one false mention of a mesmer in the beginning of the article, but the build includes no mesmers. The voter only talks about how bad a mesmer is when there are no mesmers in a build. -- (talk) 13:32, 25 September 2006 (CDT)

Removed note
Unspecified note directed at unspecified people who thought Famine was nerfed for unspecified reasons. --Karlos
 * I am a 55 and whenever there is a visage on me, groups flee. So i think the Nightfall Update message should be brought back to this page, it is not unspecified, it was just unstated. SV/AV makes enemies Flee, thanks to the update. I will post a revised version of this build with mo/me where if they do flee, it isn't a problem, because of the distance between enemy and ranger.
 * SV/AV is "working" again, but I think aggro is too sloppy now (that is, any aggro >3 creatures) for the ranger to safely be bringing SV/AV. Honestly, I consider this build unfavored now, and would never dual with a R/Me. It can be modified to work safely again by having the monk carry SV/AV, and the Ranger bringing some of the bonds. But I don't know enough about "reworking approved builds" to touch it. Oblio 11:07, 27 November 2006 (CST)
 * If the build doesn't work as it is presented, feel free to edit and start a revote. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 17:42, 11 December 2006 (CST)
 * Just because I've found much greater success with Build:Team - 55/Famine Redux doesn't mean this doesn't work. To whit, are there any strong proponents of this build that would like to do a test run/talk through in the UW (American district) using this build? I'm available most days after 8PM EST -- [[Image:Ranger-icon-small.png|25px]]Oblio (talk) 17:57, 11 December 2006 (CST)

Ranger Survivability
So... you guys aren't having problems with this build in terms of ranger survivability? Worst cast scenereo is you have to pull 5 smites to 3 coldfires (this isn't even an over-aggro situation, it can get worse if you screw up and draw 2 smite groups). So you begin to tank with SB and AV on you already, ranger drops Famine and runs in to cast SV on you. He is recognized as a threat by at least 1 of the groups attacking you (you can't position smites away from ranger since you are drawing them into the colds). Smites take damage and form their knitting circle around you waiting to heal, at this point they go after the ranger, and inevitably get caught up in this "attack the ranger, attack the spirits" crap. Meanwhile, you continue tanking and the clock keeps ticking. If the ranger gets caught by a few of them, and you aren't using healing breeze (lets just assume a SoA monk) he could die. Even if you are using HB, you are wasting time while the ranger runs around and tries to lose aggro then place famine close enough to be effective THEN get back in and start the AV-SV chain again (at which time smites break off again).

Since I made my comments above regarding Build:Team_-_55/Famine_Redux, I've made a point to try this run with a R/Me a few times, and I've had a completion rate of maybe 2 for 5. Completion rate for a smite run with a R/Mo is >90%.

Am I missing something? -- Oblio (talk) 12:21, 19 December 2006 (CST)

Famine and Scatter?
195.172.60.108 modified the front page with: "Famine Now Causes Enemies To Scatter, with careful aggro SS is faster" (someone should add a period if that statement is correct). ANYWAY, has there been a change to famine with the 1/11 update? Or is this information incorrect?

Prior to 1/11, a correct statement would be: "damage from any source causes groups >3 to break aggro and take time to heal in a circle area around the target such that at any one time, 3 creatures will be attacking the target." NOTE: I am not claiming there were changes 1/11 (I haven't farmed the last few days), I'm asking if anyone knows about a change. Thanks! -- Oblio (talk) 14:29, 12 January 2007 (CST)