Talk:Guild Wars Nightfall

Note: the history of this page has been wiped due to alpha NDA violations &mdash; Skuld 10:18, 11 September 2006 (CDT)

Info from Games Convention considered "official"?
How do we treat 3rd party reports from Games Convention? If ANet gave a presentation and somebody else writes a report, do we consider the info in the report as "official" enough to add it to the article? I'm referring for example to features revealed in the PC Games report, like the option to save builds or improved party formation. -- 09:40, 24 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I say we wait for this... See Below --Midnight08 10:37, 24 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I was aware of the press release when I typed the question. The press release doesn't mention the features. So what shall we wait for? --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 13:00, 24 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I would guess Magazine articles would be official, but word of mouth would be less so, harder to ensure an accurate representation from a word of mouth source. While Magazine exclusives on the other hand are provided by the developers. For those i would still note that the data is coming from a 3rd party. Like Internet articles. --Midnight08  13:40, 24 August 2006 (CDT)


 * If multiple sources have the same information, I think we should add it. Even two sources is enough. But only one source might be questionable, although I think they have only correct info. Magazines on the other hand have had a lot of mistakes in the past so I don't trust them. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 13:48, 24 August 2006 (CDT)


 * i think we should look at it like this: 1 source: unconfirmed speculation; 2 sources: unconfirmed, no speculation; 3 or more sources: confirmed;

Press Release - August 24 2006
ArenaNet and NCsoft Announce October 27 as Global Release Date for Guild Wars Nightfall

Box Art Debuted and Premium Items Announced for Collector's Edition

August 24 and 2006 (BELLEVUE and WA) - ArenaNet® and NCsoft® today announced that Guild Wars Nightfall TM and the next game in the award-winning and critically-acclaimed Guild Wars® franchise and will be available in stores worldwide October 27 and 2006. The news was announced today from the Guild Wars Factions TM World Championship in Leipzig and Germany.

In this third Guild Wars campaign and players must fight to hold back the night as a mad ruler attempts to free an outcast god and bring darkness to the continent of Elona. But players won't fight alone. Guild Wars Nightfall introduces new customizable Heroes who level up and follow player instructions in combat and use skills and equipment of the player's choosing. These Heroes will follow the player through savage coasts, ancient monuments and poisonous deserts during an epic story that spans twenty missions and hundreds of quests. And for the ultimate one-on-one challenge and competitive players can choose to enter the new Hero vs. Hero Battles and where they group with a custom team of Heroes and fight against other players from around the world and their customized groups of Heroes.

Guild Wars Nightfall will be available in both Standard and Collector's Editions. The highly-coveted, limited run and Collector's Edition will include the Guild Wars Nightfall game as well as a Making of Guild Wars Nightfall behind-the-scenes DVD and a collector's art book and collectible skill pins, a character mini-standee and a poster-sized map of Elona and the Guild Wars Nightfall soundtrack CD and more.

Guild Wars and an instant bestseller worldwide upon its release in April 2005, and Guild Wars Factions and the number one game in both North America and Europe earlier this year and are global online roleplaying games. Guild Wars Nightfall continues the tradition of inviting players to immerse themselves in an epic storyline centered in a vibrant fantasy setting. Eager fans can get the Guild Wars Nightfall Prerelease Bonus Pack in stores on September 15, and the Guild Wars Nightfall Standard Edition and Guild Wars Nightfall Collector's Edition on October 27 and 2006.

(please excuse minor grammatical errors i'm at work and had to use google transilator o bypass the proxy...)

from Here --Midnight08 10:38, 24 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Gamespot also has a relese. They confirm, that we'll have 20 Story missions, so it looks like the world will be larger then Cantha (13), but still smaller then Tyria (25). [Source] &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|20px|My Talk Page :o]] 04:58, 26 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I don't think the number of missions and the size of the world scale at all. In Prophecies, there are a LOT of explorable areas not related to missions.  In Factions, we start seeing missions overlapping with explorable areas.  Factions even had two different areas phyiscally being on top of each other.  What is to prevent two missions from using the exact same map?  Or turning every other explorable area into a mission?  You can easily hit 30 mission mark while having a world smaller than Cantha. - 06:22, 26 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Lets atleast try to be positive. They promised that Nightfall will be more PvE oriented, so I hope they'll have a large world. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 06:26, 26 August 2006 (CDT)

Future Events
Since I haven't read any information about this matter yet: GameStar, the largest german games magazine, states in their upcoming issue that there will be a Nightfall PvE Preview Weekend from September 22nd to September 24th. This sure can't be called 'official confirmation', yet they are in contact with ArenaNet so I would put at lest some confidence in this date. --MRA 17:48, 26 August 2006 (CDT)
 * I belive it can become true, since Factions PvE preview event accured approx. 1 month before it got released. --weby 19:49, 26 August 2006 (CDT)

I'm very new to editing anything, I hope I didn't do anything wrong here. I'd like to say that the PVE preview event is confirmed for Sept 22nd, source would be PCGAMER magazine, as well as a free mission and mini figure included in the issue. There is a very large review that lists the date of the event, and your access to the mission during it. Again, sorry if I did something wrong, just felt I could finally contribute to a great site I enjoy quite a bit.


 * You did nothing wrong. But, sorry, a magazine article doesn't count as "officially confirmed". Not too long ago a date that was "confirmed" by the magazine PC Format was denied to be correct by ANet. So we learned the hard way to be strict about it: It's confirmed only if announced directly by ANet or NCsoft. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 10:55, 8 September 2006 (CDT)

Okay, well I just figured I'd add it, and the fact it contained a mission that was designed for owners of the magazine which was to take place on a certain few days, I figured it'd help. I am sorry about that and thank you for letting me know. Perhaps Guildwiki should add some of the info contained in the magazine on the site, things such as the mini figurine, and the special mission(broken toy quest).

New offscreen movies
i have links for new offscreen ingame's movies:

New Ingame Mission from GC

New Login Screen --Ofer1992 11:59, 29 August 2006 (CDT)

Archive?
This talk page is now nearly a dozen pages long on my monitor and twice the recommended maximum size of 32 kb. I think we should archive everything before Liepzig and the announcement of the release date. -- Gordon Ecker 02:37, 31 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Be BOLD, do it. =) --Xeeron 11:59, 4 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Done. -- Gordon Ecker 21:17, 4 September 2006 (CDT)

Heroes?
I'm thinking Guild Wars gone pokemon with this stuff. Seems like a VERY fun and VERY grand idea. Kamahl 14:54, 5 September 2006 (CDT)


 * *wants pokeball to capture Glint, Kuunavang or Shiro*
 * Seriously though, I'm really looking forward to being able to have a mesmer henchman that spams interrupts faster than humanly possible like those damn Phantoms. The one thing I'm worried about is that it sounds like the choice of heroes may be permanent and irreversible. Players can change their attributes, skills, secondary professions, equipment, factions, parties, guilds, alliances, guild halls and pets with varying amounts of effort and cost, and foreign characters can play through missions that take place chronologically before they're supposed to have reached the continent, I don't see why they shouldn't be able to replace their super-henches. Sure, it would make sense if they had some restrictions, such as only allowing hero replacement in Elona's version of the Divine Path, requiring you to level replacement heroes like you have to level replacement pets or having some kind of fee on par with the cost of a crafter weapon or a full set of 1.5k armour, but I think there should be some way to replace henchmen. -- Gordon Ecker 23:33, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Reminds me of missionaries from Diablo 2, actually... 204.112.156.118 22:56, 15 September 2006 (CDT)
 * u cant control and ser skills for the d2 henchies...--Midnight08 01:42, 16 September 2006 (CDT)

Features
I'm writing here, 'course ow the "Only features that are officially announced by ArenaNet will be posted here!" clause ^^;

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/guildwarscampaign3/news.html?sid=6157129

The info i think we might add are the "4 new guild halls" and the "300 new skills" part. Gamespot's Previous where proven throughtful, so can we add that? &mdash; Poki#3 23:23, 5 September 2006 (CDT)


 * It's not officially confirmed, but it is coming from ANet, and if ANet links directly to the article from the front page of guildwars.com that's definitely some kind of endorsement. I think we should add a separate section near the bottom containing unconfirmed / inderect information from ANet. -- Gordon Ecker 23:43, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

Skills
I just noticed that no one's added skill descriptions from the Nightfall preview at the Liepzig convention. After the Factions press event in Seattle back in March, we got the names of a fair number of new skills for the core professions, as well as some rough descriptions. -- Gordon Ecker 23:53, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

Bonus Pack and Collector's Edition Content
Tetris, why would you cut out the specific contents of the bonus package and collector's edition from this article? They have been confirmed by Anet and it would be more useful to people to know that they're getting in-game weapons in the bonus pack, and an art book in the collector's edition, rather than just "fan articles". --Ctran 09:37, 8 September 2006 (PDT)
 * The only reason i can see is because the info is easily found by clicking the link to the wiki page for the package. - Midnight08 11:42, 8 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Ok, but the wiki page for the Collector's Edition does not exist. --Ctran 12:28, 8 September 2006 (PDT)
 * was there an official post about collectors edition contents yet? If you can point me to one by A-Net i'l add the page--Midnight08 14:54, 8 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Found it, gimmie a min --Midnight08 14:59, 8 September 2006 (CDT)

Story Line
Could Dhuum be the evil god mentioned in the preview?
 * "Could" is the key word there... its heavily speculated but hasnt been revelaed yet... --Midnight08 22:01, 8 September 2006 (CDT)
 * They've been dropping hints about a connection between Dhuum, the chaos hordes and Elona since the Factions PvP preview. Wolfgaming.net has a couple screenshot of a stone building in one of the Nightfall missions with the same giant tentacles as the Tomb of the Primeval Kings. -- Gordon Ecker 22:39, 8 September 2006 (CDT)

'Radarmap' of Nightfall
Well, the map someone added seems interesting, is there any way of proving whether it's true or false? -- Torins (talk) 14:19, 10 September 2006 (CDT)
 * not until the PvE ebvent, also the map looks really incomplete--Midnight08 18:13, 10 September 2006 (CDT)

That map is an alpha-leak. Any re-posting of links to that image (including links to the same image uploaded to a different hosting site) will result in the entire article be deleted by me and then restored without the link, to wipe it from the history. Depending on the circumstances, I might also consider banning the person who re-posted the link to that image. - 20:45, 10 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Edit: the reason I didn't wipe the history just now is because the link seems to no longer work. If it turns out the link works again, I'll wipe the history. - 20:48, 10 September 2006 (CDT)

I added this map before, and the link is indeed dead, so here's another one i found: (link removed) The person from whom I picked up the previous map just came across it.lof102 16:34, 11 September 2006 (CDT)
 * With all due respect, but you, Sir, are an idiot. PanSola, who is an admin here, just told you that all links to that map will be removed entirely from GuildWiki, because they are the result of a Non-Disclosure Agreement violation by an alpha tester. And you got the nerves to post that link again? --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 10:02, 11 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Recommend editing it out of page history and indefblock for the above user. 70.17.171.219 10:03, 11 September 2006 (CDT)
 * (oops, edit conflict. I meant above as in lof102, not Tetris.) 70.17.171.219 10:03, 11 September 2006 (CDT)
 * lol PanSola says dont repost or you might get banned, so he REPLIES with, i reposted.... yea get rid of him lol. Its already bad enough that this info gets leaked at all (i'd love to hear it but there are reasons for NDA's), but to have people posting it everywhere over and over again is ridic... --Midnight08 11:36, 12 September 2006 (CDT)

Information from magazines
Sources doesn't exist yet, what's our unofficial policy on posting info from magazines. Can we post anything as long as we paraphrase and don't violate American copyright law? Are we only allowed to mention that information is in a specific issue of the magazine? -- Gordon Ecker 21:45, 10 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Precendital practice has been that paraphrasing is allowed, but any features or release date should still need confirmation from Anet or they remain speculation. - 10:39, 11 September 2006 (CDT)


 * What about the names of the monsters and the other two regions? -- Gordon Ecker 17:43, 11 September 2006 (CDT)


 * You can phrase them as "according to blah blah magazine," and then state the names of the monsters and regions. We wouldn't know if the magazines got them right or if they made up the names (or mixed up the names). - 20:59, 11 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Okay, here's the info from the PC Gamer scans in this gwonline thread, and this one. The creature with a mask and flaming blue-white wings is a Marganite (sic), a creature which wasn't in the ingame cinematic but bears a strong resemblance to a Grasp of Insanity is called a Realm of Torment Mesmer, the Griffon is labelled as a Vabbi Griffin (sic), the giant is labelled as a Desolation Giant Yeti and the giant scaly tree / fungus thing is labelled as a Living Land Treenormous. Elona's port is named as Kamadan.
 * In addition to the information from the actual scans, forum posters have said that, according to the magazine, the two other regions are Desolation and the Realm of Torment, Jahai is a city in Vabbi, there are 20 missions, and Nightfall has elite missions that are accessible after a certain point in the game and are apparently much easier to access. According to the thread the article names 12 Heroes and gives brief, one-sentence descriptions of them that do not explicitly state their professions. Also, apparently one of the missions has rideable mounts, but not in the way that people would expect. -- Gordon Ecker 22:50, 11 September 2006 (CDT)

I am in possession of this magazine now and have the full list of the 12 heroes, but I see that the stubs have already been delete flagged. I won't add the rest if they are jsut going to be deleted. Deletion is not proper I think, but it's your wiki 69.80.225.12 17:19, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I think reference could be done in this article, mentioning their names per the magazine. But, precedent suggests it's premature to create articles for them until they can be confirmed in game (magazines have been frequently wrong on this sort of stuff in the past).  At any rate, we'll likely have the information in-game during the preview just barely over a week away.  It could all just be added at that point. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 17:23, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * It's just information, man. It won't bite. I mean who is gonna complain if GuildWiki repeats wrong information that is already published in an exclusive magazine article? "OMG guildwiki said foo but it's actually bar I'm never using gwiki again!!!11" ... yeah. But suit yourselves. 69.80.225.12 17:31, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I wouldn't mind taking the info from magazine articles, and even create articles from it, as long as such magazine got the content exclusively from ANet. Even if the magazine got a name wrong, it is minor work to move the article later and fix links. No harm done. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 04:27, 15 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm confused. One person says info from magazines is verboten and adds delete tags on Koss, Zhed Shadowhoof, &c, the other person says go ahead make the articles. Can someone give a clear statement of the wiki policy? Because I'm not going to make any pages if they just get immediately delete. 69.80.225.12 14:07, 15 September 2006 (CDT)
 * There is no clear wiki policy about this yet, that's the problem. Wiki policies are the result of cumminity discussion. We're in the middle of that discussion, right here, right now. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 13:00, 17 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Given that the official site has a story about this article, I think that the magazine article content should be acceptable. It clearly has support from ANet, even if they have not officially announced the names themselves. We already have the Nightfall "changes possible" notice on the articles, warning people the information is not final. Even ANet's information can change - didn't Gaile say something about an auction house coming shortly after the release of Factions? Just my 2 cents. - Lord Ehzed 12:35, 17 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I see no problem listing them within an article, such as this one. But, given that we know next to nothing about them, I feel a red link is better than an empty article.  Red links are not evil, they just mean that content is needed once information becomes available.
 * Besides, we should have content in less than a week - the red links will evaporate at that point. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 12:57, 17 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I have no problems with the adding of information from sources who claim they have exclusive but official content. If someone wants to take the trouble of duplicating the information here (we can always say "Read so-and-so article on issue so-and-so), by all means please do so (personally, I find it troublesome since you must edit them again after the release, might as well wait). But the question I'm wondering is whether we're allowed to, given that those are exclusive stuffs. -- Ab.Er.Rant (msg Aberrant80) 20:51, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

Info from NCTAiwan
http://guildwars.nctaiwan.com/event/globeEvent/ch3dark/event.asp


 * 20 missions includes varous traps and puzzles. For example, one cooperative mission requires players to locate four stone tablets in the desert, and place them into different platforms, in order to open a door.  THen they fight a boss, and only complete mission after defeating boss.  In this mission, plaer must kill ghost to get stone tablet, the funny thing is, player can only bring one stone tablet at a time, and the stone tablet you placed in the platform will be stolen by reborn ghost after a certain time.  So before starting mission, need to think about how to break through the dilemma.  During mission, the pillars that will collapse anytime, or mechanisms that randomly burst out flames etc will all do damage to players, so the timing of players controlling character movement will be very important, which is a big test of player reaction.  And boss will transform according to the situation on the battlefield.  Every transform includes the Boss's outershape and profession, so players are no longer fighting a single-profession boss, but a Bosss who will change his main attack alignment/attribute/style (edit: an ambig word), so the player's tactical combo for attacking the boss will have more myrid changes.


 * In the Roleplaying mode, Heroes will go on adventures with players, and listen to order to do the three commands of attack, defense, and avoid combat. The player can freely adjust the Hero's profession and equipment.  A plaer can bring a max of 3 heroes to the party, which greatly decreases the diffculty of forming a group.  For example, a party of max size 8 now can simply be formed by 2 players each bringing 3 heroes, no need to wait, can start exploration ant time.  What's even more interesting, partying iwth different heroes will let players have different game experience during the mission, increasing mission replayability.  In PvP mode, a new 1 vs 1 PvP fighting system, "Hero vs Hero", player can party with their own hero and fight against other players with their hero around the globe.  THis is like a 1 vs 1 player PvP, the pleyer not only need to think about their onw skill and equipment, also need to consider the 3 heroes's job and equipment and skill arrangement.

- 11:42, 13 September 2006 (CDT)


 * wow, those mission took 40min to 2 hours to finsih.... -- [[Image:Ritualist-icon-small.png]] Cwingnam2000 11:49, 13 September 2006 (CDT)


 * That's comparable to Prophecies/Factions mission length, if you go with relatively new ppl and not rushing for master's award, I think - 12:11, 13 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Hero vs hero battles sound fun, I'm playing Boon Orders Mo/N with 3 R-spike heroes hehe. With AI reflexes i'm sure it will do well ^^ &mdash; Skuld 12:01, 13 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Hmmm, but that sounds like heroes would replace henchmen. I hope there is some sort of mechanism that will still let you "hench" higher level missions. --Xeeron 12:12, 13 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I'll take a team of 4 Smart Custom "Hero's" over 8 "Henchmen" any day... just gera em and set skills correctly and they will be vastly superior when it comes down to it--Midnight08 13:37, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

"Ya Ba Dun", or something that sounds like it

 * http://event1.gamebase.com.tw/event_20060913_gw/index.htm
 * http://kusos.com/75.htm
 * http://prj.gamer.com.tw/guidenewevent

NCTaiwan is putting on an activity with 3 major gaming websites in Taiwan (Gamebase, Kusos, and Bahamut), giving away access to the PvE Preview Event (333 slots for each website). To participate, people need to submit a sentence containing the words "Nightfall", "Ya Ba Dun" (or something that sounds it), "Hero", and "Gamebase/Kusos/Bahamut" (depending on the gaming site). - 11:49, 13 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I'm curious WTH is that "Ya Ba Dun" thinggie, why they would want it to be linked to form a story -- [[Image:Ritualist-icon-small.png]] Cwingnam2000 11:59, 13 September 2006 (CDT)


 * A few forum posts in Taiwan are suggesting it means "Abaddon", as in Abaddon's Mouth (Location). However since the Chinese localization of the location/mission didn't translate the name "Abbadon" (the Chinese name is "Hell Mouth" or something), the connection is not certain. - 12:10, 13 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Haha, the Taiwan forum post are intersting and funny, Lots of people make a story without knowing what Ya Ba Dun meant, oh didn't know that you made the chinese wiki^^ -- [[Image:Ritualist-icon-small.png]] Cwingnam2000 12:37, 13 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Something interesting Abaddon (Demon) -- [[Image:Ritualist-icon-small.png]] Cwingnam2000 12:55, 13 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Could you check what the name of Dhuum is in the Taiwan/Chinese localized version? --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 13:19, 13 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I haven't been really playing the game much lately, and I've never ventured that deep into UW. Plus the fact that Taiwan rarely gets te Favor of Gods, I doubt any of the ppl on the Taiwanese forums know.  What you can do is, organize a team to go to UW, find the references of Duum, change your interface language to Traditional Chinese, and screenshot it for me. - 13:28, 13 September 2006 (CDT)


 * If Abaddon turns out to be another name for Dhuum then we'll know who Abaddon's Mouth is named after. The stone carvings on the Ring of Fire Islands and around the Lake of Fire bear a strong resemblance to Scythes of Chaos. -- Gordon Ecker 23:56, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

Logo
Now that the character selection screen has a Nightfall logo we can finally take an ingame screenshot and re-add the logo to the article without anybody pooping his pants because of a potential copyright violation. Hooray, we'll not be the last fansite on the planet without a Nightfall logo any more. /sarcasm -- 05:11, 15 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Done =) --Midnight08 16:11, 15 September 2006 (CDT)

Lip-synch in in-game cinematics
Why hasn't anyone posted this yet? Is Gaile's post not enough to add such info? -- Torins (talk) 13:29, 15 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Where? --Karlos 22:18, 15 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Here --[[Image:Animate_Flesh_Golem.jpg|25px]] Torins (talk) 02:41, 16 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Is this retro-active? Do you have to purchase Nightfall to get this feature?  --71.232.158.226 02:04, 17 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I'm sure they wont add this feature to previous campaigns, just the new cinematics. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 02:09, 17 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Gaile said "cinematics" not "Nightfall cinematics", so let's have hope... --[[Image:Animate_Flesh_Golem.jpg|25px]] Torins (talk) 03:02, 17 September 2006 (CDT)


 * From what I understand, it will be implemented backwards. It's not like the cutscenes were rendered as a static video stream. It just uses a different camera angle, so I doubt they need alot of more work to make sure it gets back-ported. -- Ab.Er.Rant (msg Aberrant80) 20:45, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

Music
The entering notes that lead up to the heavy drumming seem very similir to notes in a song by Amr Diab. Can't recall the title though. --Karlos 22:20, 15 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I admit, I don't know anything about Amr Diab's music, but I have heard that "musical riff" before, possibly in a movie/tv show. --Rainith 22:52, 15 September 2006 (CDT)

pre-release - "expected"
has it hit the stores yet? It's past Sept 15. - 12:50, 19 September 2006 (CDT)
 * some stores it has hit around the world, but most places still do not have it it seems. Ive seen on many retailers that it is listed as a Sep 24th hard street date (they can get fined if they sell it earlier), probably in error as this coincides with the regular pre-release disks hard date. --Midnight08 13:00, 19 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm holding my copy in my hand right now (as I type with the other hand), so, yes, it is definetly available. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 14:02, 19 September 2006 (CDT)

Holy Fig Leaves, Batman!
Check out the female ele armor in the promotional:

link to picture

This is ridiculous. Here I am still trying to recover from 15k Luxon Bellydancer armor and they throw this at me! What the heck is that supposed to protect from? Does it come with 15k sun lotion? There is no depth to which the costume designers will not delve to please the 14 year old male audience of this game. Bah! --Karlos 13:54, 19 September 2006 (CDT)


 * The male assassin armor is great, the male ranger armor sucks. The female ele armor looks good too. I'm not bothered if they just try to sell the game with half naked females; why not? --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 14:07, 19 September 2006 (CDT)


 * When you have a daughter yourself, and you see her barraged every hour with content that tells her she has to "Strut her stuff" and convince her that she derives her social worth from how much males appreciate her body and you have to deal with the very real issue of "Cripes, I don't want my daughter to be like those retarded girls on the Disney channel" then you'll come to understand why this a VERY bad thing. To me, the concept that a person, any person, would go to war in a bikini is ridiculous. But the main issue is social responsibility... To cater to the penises of 14 year old boys is to destroy the self-image of thousands of girls who play this game and destroy the true worth of a woman in the minds of the owners of those penises. I come from a different culture where this maybe too evident for me as compared to those from a western culture. --Karlos 14:14, 19 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Off topic, but in Spain, 5 models were disqualified in participating in some fashion show or something, because those women were underweight. I hope that will start a trend to set the world in the right direction.  Well, not about cloths, but about physical health. - 14:19, 19 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Not if Paris Hilton can do something about it. Anorexia ftl :( --Karlos 14:29, 19 September 2006 (CDT)


 * The fashion show model limitations are great. It will probably increase the general health of teenage girls a lot. What comes to clothing, I understand your point of view Karlos. Sorry for the previous post. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 15:06, 19 September 2006 (CDT)

Pointless Trivia
After the last unrelated trivia tidbit was added, I was half tempted to just port over all the entries on Nightfall; but instead I'll ask ... what criteria/threshold exists for trivia entries? I don't recall seeing anything in style/formatting guides (and I would hope this is too minor to be documented in policies). --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:33, 19 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I think anything relevant or related should only be added. The latest trivia is neither. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 16:38, 19 September 2006 (CDT)