User talk:Tennessee Ernie Ford/Archive 05

incomplete edit
[ It] stops abruptly and is unsigned; I suspect some glitch rather than intention? -- ◄mendel► 01:32, August 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * The unsigned part was unintentional. (I had written more, but then realized it wasn't adding anything to the discussion and deleted it from the preview. Naturally, the ~ went out with the bath water.) &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 01:49, August 27, 2010 (UTC)

[ appositives]
You only use commas to set off non-restrictive (parenthetical) appositives. In this case, your subsequent edit made it quite clear that the quest name was the restrictive (essential) appositive &mdash; it was the part you kept, while you were able to leave out "the primary quest" without changing the meaning &mdash; thus it was incorrect to set it off with commas. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 01:03, September 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * That sounds good. However, my take is that the original suggested that the important point was that it was a primary quest. Commas or not, it failed the newspaper editor's rule of avoiding unnecessary adjectives. (Although some would write that as, avoid adjectives.)


 * Anyhow, the point of the edit was to avoid the debate. The point of the edit summary was to poke fun at the person who called the original grammar, "incorrect," not so much b/c I thought it was a bad edit. (Although I admit to a prejudice against seeing that many adjectives/nouns strung together w/o any punctuation.) &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 02:50, September 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * The thing here, though, is that "primary quest" is a standard phrase used by the game, it is part of the game's jargon. Isn't jargon necessarily exempted from editorial rules like that?  Also, identifying it as a "primary quest" emphasizes the fact that you must play through the storyline past a specific point in order to vanquish the area; to someone who doesn't already know that AGTF is a primary quest, the current wording might make them think they can just get a run out there, complete some dinky side quest, and then be able to vanquish.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 03:45, September 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * The critical question you ask is, "what about letting peeps know that they have to play through storyline to specific point?" I thought about that before I removed the phrase and I'm rethinking it. On the whole, I imagine that ppls who get to the VQ point have either completed the quest or know that it's in the storyline (esp. w/the various bounties etc around). On the other hand, how hard would it be to find a phrasing that avoids the appositive and too-many-modifiers issues and gets the job done?


 * I think the editors that eschew adjectives would argue that jargon is out, too, b/c we can find plain-speaking words that manage to convey the same meaning. So, what about,


 * In order to VQ the area, you must have progressed the eotn storyline through completion of AGTF.


 * The phrasing could be better, but that gets the idea across in about the same # of words and w/o anyone else stumbling over grammar. &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 04:42, September 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) You'd need to look up AGTF anyway in order to find out where to get it, and what the prerequisites are; this is the point where you'd learn it's a primary. (Or you would if the quest page mentioned it; as it stands, this point can only be deduced from the navbox.) And you'd also learn there's a single prerequisite quest, so it's not actually very deep into the storyline?
 * There's more important info the note is lacking: Why does the quest have to be completed? Does it unlock some area? Do I have to have completed it at some point in the past, or does it need to be active while vanquishing (it's a repeatable quest)? Is it enough if one party member has it? -- ◄mendel► 04:56, September 1, 2010 (UTC)

The rush
When we have a question we can decide, and one we can't, I think it folly to delay the first decision waiting on the second, especially given that many Internet/wiki projects get stuck indefinitely. (And seen in the light how long that first decision has already been delayed.) Deciding the merge now doesn't prevent you from organizing teh material better in any way; it requires another decision process, but we have one now (and need the new one then when prototypes/mockups are available), so we're not actually saving any effort; not deciding the merge now just means we had a lot of talk and no result to show for it. -- ◄mendel► 17:26, September 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Erm, I think I mentioned that I thought the two questions were linked. You disagree, which is fine. But that doesn't mean we couldn't have waited another few days, as I requested, in order for me to present a proof-of-concept of an alternative way of accomplishing the stated goals of the merge.


 * I don't see indefinite delays being a risk here. Nor is the original decision "delayed" &mdash; there was no consensus yet to merge (pretty much 1-2 people's opinions arguing for it, another against). So, again, why the need to rush into a decision today?


 * I do see that, having made a decision to merge, that it will be much harder to undo. I generally believe that the burden should be on the vanguard to prove the need, not on the conservatives to support the status quo &mdash; even I would find it hard to support unmerging after the fact. That is (imo) extra effort.


 * Finally, why are we having the discussion on my talk? &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 23:10, September 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * We are having the discussion on your talk because it is meta to the discussion actually going on. I didn't want to mix the meta-discussion with the discussion.
 * I don't see the link between the questions that you claim. The pages are now in "state A", the "simple" merge would be "state B", and your proposal might be "state C". I don't see that it's any harder to go from B to C than it is to go from A to C, unless you want to argue that the advantage of C over B isn't as clear as the advantage of C over A -- which implies that you prefer B over A; also, you wrote, "I agree the current system is bad."
 * Given that, I see Rose, Darksyde, Dr Ishmael, Jon, myself and yourself in favor (more or less).
 * Vipermagi proposed adding the artisans to the material pages, which would probably entail taking the material's line from the Artisan table, and the relevant artisan's lines from the artisan list table. This can be done merge or not, and would probably lead to the materials table being removed from Artisan, while the artisan list might stay on. This means Vipermagi really hasn't spoken either way on the merge. So I do see a consensus to merge, at least if I can get you to admit that you really don't oppose it. ;-P
 * Your wrote, the burden should be on the vanguard to prove the need -- Rose expressed the need; Darksyde seconded. By subject matter, the list is more appropriate to the Artisan page than the materials table is. -- ◄mendel► 07:08, September 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hmmn. I don't see it. The argument is that it's hard to find where to go to craft &mdash; I'm saying that such info is entirely disconnected to merging or not. I would therefore like to postpone the question of whether a merge is sensible until we have addressed that more important issue. I believe that it is likely that no one will care about merging afterward.


 * In other words, merge is a means to an end and, if we find another (better) means to that end, the merge itself becomes its own issue. So, yes, from my point of view, it's all linked. Taking it to "state B" would, in fact, make it all but impossible to get to a state C that has unmerged pages and yet solves the hidden NPC issue.


 * Accordingly, for me, this discussion is directly related to the issue rather than a meta discussion about the discussion itself.


 * Finally, I still don't see any harm in waiting another short while. I think it folly to delay...given that many...projects get stuck... &mdash; that usually happens when ppls aren't seeing the bigger picture and no one is boldly taking steps forward. My argument is that the bigger picture might be better addressed by a non-merge solution and that, should we merge now, we might actually find it harder to see (let alone implement) that alternative.


 * Mind you, I might be entirely wrong, but can I ask your indulgence for a wee bit longer? Thanks. &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 15:42, September 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Would a week be ok? -- ◄mendel► 19:44, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

dungeon chests
Please see sections 6 and 7 on Template talk:Dungeon chest contents. -- ◄mendel► 08:43, September 6, 2010 (UTC)

blank parameters
Why are you leaving all the blank parameters in the ItemInfo template? It's not necessary, and for the icon parameter, it completely screws up the icon display. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 03:55, September 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Erm, it's not clear to me when a parm should be blank, when not. I didn't see anything odd in the display when I previewed, so it didn't seem like a problem. However, this is exactly why I stopped after doing only a few &mdash; give you a chance to repoint me. &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 05:20, September 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * As a general rule, it's a bad idea to supply blank parameters to templates. &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 13:34, September 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Also as a general rule, it's a bad idea to use  and other page-related "magic words" directly in an article.  If the content gets transcluded somewhere, it will reflect the name of the page where it is transcluded, not the name of the source page.  You can, however, subst: them like templates, so you can simply copy   from page to page as you edit.
 * In the template itself, you seemed somewhat inconsistent with a couple parameters. Sometimes you included the plural, sometimes you didn't; sometimes you said it was stackable, sometimes you didn't.  Sometimes you included the plural but then said it wasn't stackable!  Was it simple fatigue/sleepiness?
 * Other than that, I like what you did in cleaning up the articles. Thanks for helping!  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 15:43, September 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Lessee:


 * was inattention (sure, blame it on being tired). I meant to replace those with bracketed links from the copypasta and erm, forgot. (Actually, I probably was indecisive about subst: vs outright replace and postponed the decision until ...whoops &mdash; my apologies for that.)
 * Plurals vs stackables: is there harm done to have a plural w/o stackability=yes? I thought better to err on having the plural, when it was/would be different. I figure it was easier to have the plural than to have to add it later.
 * Stackability generally: when I was 90% sure (verified in-game or recent usage), I put yes or no. When I was unsure, I left it blank as a mnemonic to check later...and forgot to let you know that was the plan.
 * Standard text: you probably noticed I used a standard phrasing to introduce the items, basically following your lead in trophies etc. I'm not 100% convinced it's the best wording, but I think it's better than what was there before...and standardization encourages the next editors to follow a similar lead.
 * Let me know if you have a feeling about the text, for the next set of quest items.
 * : since you touched many of the articles, you probably noticed that I typed in a "what's missing" in the section-stub, so that it would be more obvious to others what was needed.
 * Should that template be setup to display the "what's missing" text (along with the stub notice)?
 * GWW auto-categorizes the stubs for different types of articles. I think the idea is to make it easier for someone to systematically review all similar articles w/section issues. I suspect that's overkill here (and there, for that matter), but: it might be useful to provide some filtering. Any thoughts on that? Or best wait to finish the 250 other projects you have in mind?
 * Sorry for creating extra work for you, but I do hope you ended up doing less than you might have otherwise. (I'm working at making your life easier, even if it doesn't appear that way ;-) &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 20:59, September 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * I think that explains most of what I was unclear about, especially with the plural/stackable stuff. Your standard text looks fine.
 * Stubbifying: Since none of those articles actually have sections anymore, you should probably be using Template:Item-stub instead. Section-stub is intended for use in larger, mostly non-stubby articles, where you want to specifically point out which part of the article is stubby.  Using the Item-stub will also categorize it to Category:Item stubs, which I think covers your concern at #2.
 * For #1, displaying additional notes with the stub template, I'm thinking that's not necessary. Anyone who edits the article would (hopefully) notice the comment where you have it now.  If you wanted, we could even do a quick DPL listing to summarize those "notes" from all pages that use a certain stub tag.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 21:29, September 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Cool. Thanks for quick reply. (I get confused for some reason about which stubs are relevant when &mdash; I would prefer just being able to use &mdash; I don't think the average person cares about the distinction between an item, weapon, section, or article stub beyond the fact that some articles need a lot of help, some don't.)  &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 21:38, September 22, 2010 (UTC)

bad idea
Some members that contribute here are banned on gww due to the Cabal that's going on there. It's irresponsible people there, who do not understand the concepts nor what a real discussion, etc. is compared to what they want to claim is Trolling, hostile, etc. They have run off many contributors from there that came here. It would be ill-advised to mention gww again. Please don't.
 * 31.114, your point belongs on the page where the option was brought up. It is an option that we do have; it ought to be discussed, and there are reasons for and against that ought to weighed. You have excellent points against, and there is currently little chance that GuildWiki would go that way, so there's no cause to get upset. You already know that the way to deal with opinions you don't like is to argue against them. Please don't try to silence them. -- ◄mendel► 08:49, October 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * is cabal the new word for "people trolled poorly, got banned and want someone to pin the blame on?" if so, i can totally cut my word count per post down. - Auron 12:33, October 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * @31.114 Honestly I'm not at all sure what it is you are trying to tell me. I am sorry that you (and others) have had a horrible experience at GWW, but I hope that you can respect my point of view, too.


 * At this moment in time, contributors at GWiki have three choices: stop contributing to a GW wiki; contribute to GW Oasis@Wikia, or move to GWW. I think everyone should be entitled to review all three possibilities and has the right to make their own choice.


 * I hope that this wiki is able to create a superior fourth option: to move to a new host. I would like to be able to help with such a move and to travel with GWiki to the new location. At the same time, I recognize that some people will choose one of the current three directions.


 * I also recognize that GWW has trouble implementing its concept of a Big Tent that includes all comers. (There is, for example, a small group interested in quashing anything that implies criticism of ANet or the actions of its staff.) But that's true of any community made up of human beings: it's flawed and imperfect. I think it would be worse if people such as myself stopped contributing there.


 * Given what I know today, I am unlikely to stop mentioning GWW just because one anon think it's a bad idea. Of course, I might be missing some of the facts you have at your command and which might change my opinion. Please use this space (or email me) to help me to understand why it is wrong for me to consider all possible options to respond to Wikia's new direction. Thank you. &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 16:41, October 1, 2010 (UTC)



Re: Redlinks
Please do not create blank stubs. Redlinks encourage users to create content, blank pages look unprofessional. Feel free to create the page with a short description as a placeholder, however --  Random Time  18:17, October 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * Sigh. Had you waited another few minutes, you would see me remove the stub and put the content in. I can only work on so many things at once. (Plus, if you look at the article I was working on, you'll see that there are indeed some red links, exactly as you would have me do.:-) . &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 18:29, October 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * A case for GW:DID? ;) -- ◄mendel► 19:16, October 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * I suppose it was rather rapid. Sorry --  Random Time  19:20, October 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) Perhaps GW:DIC; don't immediately create. Why first create a stub, and then replace the stub with content? To me, it would make more sense to just postpone article creation to add in the content on creation, but, I am not TEF; my brain works differently :p --Vipermagi 19:24, October 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) Naw, RT was doing the right thing. GW:DID doesn't apply. (And, even if it did, RT didn't cost me any time; no harm, no foul.)


 * I think I was going back/forth between turning that page into a redirect or making it a tiny glossary page. was a reminder that I wanted something more substantial. But, it wouldn't have cost me anything big to have typed in a short   (or as RT suggested, even a short description).


 * tl;dr RT did the right thing. So, I really owe you the apology: RT &mdash; sorry. &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 19:29, October 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Eh, it seems now that I think I was wrong, as I knew you were probably going to improve, and therefore I was being pragmatic about it. When I want something done, I bring the edit window into it's new tree, and wait to do it - but that's me. I was being unreasonable, where I could have easily not deleted and put a message on your talk. tl;dr, I was wrong, you were right. --  Random Time  19:37, October 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * Viper still has a valid point, though - creating an empty article, even if it is merely temporary, doesn't really serve any purpose (other than to confuse the admins). Our running-guide helper has it right, putting some content into new articles when he creates them, even though they're far from complete.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 19:41, October 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've understood the idea of GW:DID to be that people in the throes of creation shouldn't be focusing on how what they do looks to other people. There's time to do that when you're done with the job and sit back. To get stuff deleted under your fingers as you are putting something together, or to get sidetracked by talkpage messages hampers the creative flow. We don't want to do that, so it's better to tolerate something that's unfinished (for a short time) rather than disrupt the creator. When the creative urge seems to have run down is the proper time to "mop up" the pieces that fell by the wayside.
 * These kinds of situations don't come up very often on GuildWiki, mostly because the wiki is largely "complete". -- ◄mendel► 20:46, October 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * Erm, I thought I agreed that RT was correct to delete, and I agreed that Vipermagi was correct to suggest that there was little point to stubbing an article that I planned to add soon/soonish, and that RT agreed that there wasn't any rush to delete. Everyone involved acted in good faith, agreed that others were acting in good faith, and still agreed to adjust their behavior accordingly (given their agreement with the fundamentals). So, with so much agreement, what exactly are we now discussing? &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 10:04, October 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * It wasn't real obvious that you had actually acknowledged Viper's point, that's the only reason I reiterated it. &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 13:15, October 6, 2010 (UTC)