Talk:Margonite

Actual Kingdom name
Does anyone know their actual kingdom's name? (Margo? Margonia? Margonikstan?) All I can remember seeing is referring to them as a people. (Margonite) --Tometheus 07:44, 27 October 2005 (EST)


 * Kryptonite is from Krypton so they must be from Margon. :) I have never seen any reference to them other than Margonites. Of course should we find out that name, this entry will be moved there. For now, it looks great. Thanks. --Karlos 08:39, 27 October 2005 (EST)


 * Where does someone talk of the Margonite(s) ingame?


 * &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.132.87.28 (talk &bull; contribs) 2006-03-08 03:55:08.

Plural
Any reason this is plural? --Fyren 16:30, 27 October 2005 (EST)


 * They are only references inside the game as a people, "The Margonite" and since we do not know the name of their homeland (Margon, Margonia?), I agree with Tometheus that it should be the people Margonites not the individual, "Margonite." If the game produces "a Margonite" or the land of Margonia (like Elona), then we can shift the entry there. But I think for now this is ok. --Karlos 17:53, 27 October 2005 (EST)

Margonites and Luxons
Adding something... at the beginning of the strategy guide it says that "new evidence points to a luxon presence in the crystal desert"... since they were seafarers, it makes sense that they were there before the desert was brought out of the sea (for the forgotten, there's another article for that). The only reason they would have evacuated would be because it got risen out of the sea and made into it's present state as a place human's couldn't make civilisation. Isn't this what happened to the margonites, another seafaring nation? 2+2=4, and the margonites were luxons. - Neilos Tyrhanos
 * This seems extremely speculative to me. If it's in the guide, then I see no problem adding a reference to the Luxon article mentioning that "new evidence points to a Luxon presence in the crystal desert"; but I don't see enough in-game information to justify extrapolating from that to say that they were the same peoples as the Margonites. --- Barek (talk &bull; contribs) - 14:16, 2 June 2006 (CDT)
 * The luxons weren't even thought of when the desert was in place, doubt it! &mdash; Skuld  14:28, 2 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I make up a theory that the Luxons could be the Margonites, lo and behold! ANet steals it from me! Oh, intellectual property violation... Thy name is ANet! :)
 * This actually makes a LOT more sense than Elona being a separate land not named the Crystal Desert. I put it in as a note with enough doubt cast on it. --Karlos 19:34, 2 June 2006 (CDT)


 * It is to be noted that Margonite ships as seen in the desert are caravel like while Luxon ships as seen on the Jade Sea are junk like, furthermore Margonites are stated as having ship like buildings where the Luxons have been shown as having nomadic encampments made in a primary way of tents (or at least drapes on poles) for these reasons it seems less than likely to me that the Luxons and Margonite would be related except by their seafaring ways. -- Darakus, 28 July 2006


 * It should be noted that the Margonites predates the Elonians, and therefore most likely predate the Jade Wind (the 200 year mark). Luxon culture had to drastically adapt to the Jade Wind.  You have to try and imagine what Luxon culture used to be like when the Jade Sea was still water. - 08:49, 28 July 2006 (CDT)


 * The "junks vs. caravels" thing kind of seals it for me. They're not Luxons. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 09:31, 28 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I removed the Luxon reference as the Margonites are clearly from Elona now. Evidence needs to be presented that Luxons made it to Elona (or Margonites to Cantha) before this theory is revived again. --Karlos 20:28, 19 September 2006 (CDT)

Skuld, your statment is completlym stupid. Many things, especilly in Nightfall were retcons. I am adding the above quote (from the guide) to the crystel desert and Luxon articles.--68.192.188.142 20:38, 22 September 2006 (CDT)

human?
The only reference I can find regarding the Margonites is in Thirsty River, where I do not see any direct reference of them being identified as Human. While I assume King Khimaar is Margonite, I have no proof. From my understanding, the Margonites could have been a tribe/people of Tengu or Dwarves. Are there references to the Margonites outside of Thirsty River? - 18:43, 25 July 2006 (CDT)

From the pre-release bonus pack, there are some picture of the Margonite-Mesmer.jpg and Margonite-Paragon.jpg. Not sure is it okay to link there, Please delete if it isn't ok to do so. -- Cwingnam2000 16:39, 13 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Yeah, I just saw those too. So it's confirmed that they are not human. I'll edit the article accordingly. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 03:47, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Based on the info from the Guild Wars Nightfall Prerelease Bonus Pack, the original Margonites may have been human. I suspect that Mursaat may be a Margonite offshoot, since they're mask-wearing humanoids with a grudge against the Five Gods and there is evidence suggesting that they were in the Crystal Desert at some point in the past. Harpies might also be an offshoot. -- Gordon Ecker 00:29, 19 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Huh? The Margonites have 6 limbs and 6 eyes! The Mursaat have 4 limbs and 2 eyes, like a human. Plus, Mursaat hover, whereas margonites walk on the ground. The margonites worship the 6th outcast god (Dhuum?!), but we have never heard about a god of the Mursaat. I really don't see many similarities other than that they are foes of the 5 gods of Tyria.
 * Harpies is a completely different creature from classic greek mythology, resembling a bird - human mixture. What makes you think they have a link with margonites? The sole fact that some margonites have wings? --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 02:16, 19 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Possible != likely. One of the Margonites has four arms, a purple glowing chest and legs that end in fins, and she appears to be floating. Another Margonite has two arms and wings made of purple flame. Horrific transformations aren't exactly subtle, and Margonites and Mursaat are both more human looking than Juggernauts, Oni or the Afflicted. There's also the carvings on the Ring of Fire Islands that look like Scythes of Chaos with humanoid skulls in place of their six-eyed faces. As for Harpies, the booklet talks about how Dhuum 's influence twists and corrupts creatures, so I think it's plausible that any evil humanoid that's been in the Crystal Desert might be a Margonite offshoot. Heck, modern Giants might even be a human offshoot completely unrelated to the Great Giants. -- Gordon Ecker 21:54, 19 September 2006 (CDT)


 * There is one thing in the Prerelease Bonus Mini Strategy Guide that supports your theory that Margonites may be former humans who have been transformed: There is one image showing a giant statue of a creature that looks like a Margonite warrior (with two arms + two wings). In front of the statue there are humanoid creatures who seem to worship the statue. So, who is the statue? I have a feeling that it is the 6th god, the outcast, *cough* Dhuum *cough*. I guess the human heretics made a Faustian deal with the devil, err ... Dhuum. He provided them with superior magic powers, but in turn they became his slaves, and he transformed them into look-alikes of himself. So the Margonites are Dhuum's army of Mini-Mes. Just wild guessing, of course. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 10:31, 20 September 2006 (CDT)


 * For all we know the original Margonites could've been Humans, Dwarves, Giants, Tengu, Skales, Centaurs, Mursaat, Seers, Dredge, Charr, Forgotten or a diverse mix of all of the above brought together by their shared corruption. Humans just haven't been ruled out as a possibility. -- Gordon Ecker 06:24, 21 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Varesh seems to be turned into a margonite in that mission where you kill her - Lavvaran 13:32, 1 December 2006 (CST)


 * Dhuum is NOT the outcast God, its Abaddon. He is the pure evil 6th God, get Dhumm out of your mind.

Dhuum was the god that preceeded Grenth. Grenth overthrew him. Dhuum was evil, Grenth was good.(relatively speaking of course)

Note about Crystal Desert
The first note speculates that the Margonites became disillusioned and turned to Abaddon after failing in the Crystal Desert, but according to the Mini Strategy Guide, the Crystal Desert was created by their wars against the followers of the Five Gods.

"Civilized nations recognise revere the Five True Gods. But heretics speak of a sixth god...a fallen god. A thousand years ago, the spiritual ancestors of these heretics, the Margonites, fought an epic battle on the northern plains of Elona. The resulting carnage created a vast wasteland - the realm now known as the Crystal Desert.

Editing. Arshay Duskbrow 15:05, 26 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Well, when they came, it wasn't the desert yet... -````

I know, but the note suggested it happened in the order of Failure of Ascension -> Abbadon Worship. That's not the case. The failure to ascend, if indeed that's what they were doing, came after the "War of Abbadon" that created the Desert as we know it. Arshay Duskbrow 01:46, 27 September 2006 (CDT)
 * wait, why isthat?? I thought failure to ascend happened before the place turned into desert. - 16:37, 27 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm reverting. According to the Ghostly Hero in Dunes of Despair the Margonites sailed to the region that would later become the Crystal Desert specifically to ascend. As for whether they already worshipped Abbadon when they came to the desert or didn't start worshipping Abbadon until after they failed to ascend, I'm not aware of anything that conclusively proves one possibility and disproves the other. The statements of the Ghostly Hero in Thirsty River imply the latter, while the prerelease bonus pack implies the former. Maybe the notes were misleading, but they were intended to suggest two possible explanations rather than a single timeline. -- Gordon Ecker 19:22, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

Very well then. I can understand the confusion, and we really don't have any concrete statements one way or the other, although I think it's unlikely they tried to ascend before the Desert came to be what it is. Hopefully Nightfall will make some of this clear, and it's not simply an oversight on Anet's part. Arshay Duskbrow 19:38, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

I reordered the possible explainations. To me, the 'turn ainst god after failure" is a direct conjecture, whereas the invasion theory seems too much of a stretch (possble, but stretching a lot). - 22:30, 27 September 2006 (CDT)


 * And the "turned against five gods and towards Abaddon" theory has now been refuted (see talk:Abaddon). Abaddon used to be part of the same pantheon as the other five gods, and didn't become one of the bad guys until he was recklessly generous with the gift of magic, refused to admit his mistake and then, when the other gods decided to clean up his mess, he went into supervillain mode, called the Margonites to arms and tried to overthrow the rest of the pantheon. There's still the possibility that, after Abaddon was defeated, some of the Margonites decided that they'd taken the wrong side and tried to ascend. -- Gordon Ecker 06:18, 23 October 2006 (CDT)


 * The dots for your refutation don't connect. We know that during the "Abaddon war" (for the lack of a official name), the Margonites were followers of Abbadon.  How does that conflict with possible attempts for ascension beforehand?  Abaddon's reckless generousity could have as easily been a consistent personality trait as opposed to a one-time mistake.  So on the 50% chance that it's a personality thing and not a one-time blunder, this particular trait can easily explain how the Margonites, after failing to ascend to commune with the Six Gods (collectively), received special favor from Abaddon (personally/privately) and became his personal followers.  In fact, short of that theory, I'm not sure how Abaddon would get to have his own fanatic followers to fight the other five gods as soon as he entered supervillian mode (ie, if the incident with Magic was just a blunder and he has always been a perfectly good god, I don't see how the Margonite civilization would've rallied under him within the year he went supervillian and got defeated).   - 15:29, 23 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Okay, going from worshipping all six gods (and probably favoring Abaddon since they're a seafaring civilisation) to exclusively worshipping Abaddon is plausible and I didn't consider that possibility. Going from exclusively worshipping the other five gods to exclusively worshipping Abaddon, which is what the note said, is no longer plausible because, at the time, Abaddon was a member of the same pantheon as the other five rather than being an outsider. I'll re-add the note and edit it to reflect the new information. -- Gordon Ecker 19:08, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

This is kind of confusing. I would think that the Margonites turned to Abaddon after failure to achieve Ascension, but the gods were still in Tyria and they could clearly commune with them if they were blessed by Abaddon and such. Would Ascension still be required to get the attention of the gods to commune with them? It would seem not to be so, as King Doric simply went to Arah to plea with the gods, and nowhere has it said he had achieved Ascension. Also, the part from the Scriptures of Abaddon in the Abaddon article says, " And thus was magic gifted to Jadoth, chosen of Abaddon, the first of the Margonites.", which implies that those who became the chosen of Abaddon and had the gift of magic bestowed upon them also became Margonites. This conflicts with the Margonites being a seafaring civilization originally who then became the strongest supporters of Abaddon. Of course, all of this confusion could be from the fact that ANet hasn't done much with lore lately, and what they have is broken at best. Cutsman 15:49, 1 December 2006 (CST)

Dhuum was the god that preceeded Grenth. Grenth overthrew him. Dhuum was evil, Grenth was good.(relatively speaking of course)"Before the time of Grenth, when death was ruled by a cruel and unjust god, there stood a tower and a throne on this very plain. But Grenth rose up and destroyed the one called Dhuum and shattered down his tower, leaving only these storms of chaos as a reminder of the power that once held dominion here. My vigil over these lands was broken for a time, and I can feel a resurgence of the old taint. Four horsemen approach, riders of Dhuum. Destroy them before they can reclaim this place and throw the underworld into chaos!" -Reaper of the Chaos Planes in the Underworld Dialogue for the quest, "The Four Horsemen" and Menzies is Balthazar's half brother.

Spoilers
Here's some information I've gotten during the campaign. -- Gordon Ecker 00:47, 31 October 2006 (CST)
 * Margonites and Forgotten are both extremely long-lived. There are Margonites and Forgotten over a thousand years old.
 * At least some margonites are former humans who have been transformed by the power of Abaddon.
 * The Margonites invaded the realms of the gods befor eAbaddon got the smackdown.


 * My interpretation is that the Margonites were human originally, that the ones entering Abbadon's service were transformed, and that after Abbadon's defeat (and the formation of the Crystal Desert), a remnant of the human Margonite civilization attempted to ascend but were unsuccessful. This is just my read, and evidence is scanty, but thanks to Varesh we have a very clear picture of a human-to-Margonite transition, and as for the rest, two things...if the Margonites were originally an aquatic species, I don't see why they would need boats and ships of a decidedly human-looking configuration, and that given the extensive ruins in the Desert, the Margonite attempt to ascend must almost certainly have come after the formation of the desert as it appears today. Arshay Duskbrow 20:28, 1 December 2006 (CST)

Connection?
Could they possibly hold some type of connection to Mursaat? They seem to battle very similarly and even make some of the same noises (grunts and what-have-you) and I'm pretty sure the lore says something about them worshipping a god or something or other? Maybe they're the living descendants of the Margonites? — Jyro X 04:16, 5 December 2006 (CST)

Fleshy?
Sorry if this has been answered, but I was just wondering if they're considered fleshy by the game mechanincs. Ayumbhara 07:37, 2 January 2007 (CST)


 * Yes, they are. &mdash; Gares 08:27, 2 January 2007 (CST)

Evangelion
Anybody else think that the Margonites look a little like Lillith/the SEELE logo from Neon Genesis Evangelion? Ayumbhara 20:39, 4 January 2007 (CST)

Marga Coast
According to the Nightfall Manuscripts timeline, the Margonites are a people originating from the Marga Coast of Kourna. Someone should probably throw that into the article.
 * All I could find is something about Margonite colonies along Elona's northern and western coasts. Could we get a page number? -- Gordon Ecker 23:24, 9 January 2007 (CST)

Sterile?
Where is it said that the Margonites are sterile? Granted they are demons of sort, but who says demons can't reproduce? Just curious as to where exactly it is said that "The Margonites can't breed"


 * Yeah, I'm very curious about the source of this one, as well. ...I mean, there sure are a lot of them. 07:43, 8 February 2007 (CST)


 * I'm pretty sure that The Apostate says something to that effect, or else that other friendly Margonite who's a member of the Oddbodies. I do distinctly recall hearing it, though. Zaq 20:08, 11 February 2007 (CST)EDIT: Yup, here it is, The Lost (the friendly Margonite in the Oddbodies) says "''The Margonites are a dead race. We do not have children. We do not change from the old ways. My people are as stagnant as a fetid pond. My only consolation is the thought that soon there will be no Margonites left to plague the world.


 * We were wrong to devote ourselves to Abaddon.''"


 * QED. Zaq 20:10, 11 February 2007 (CST)


 * Taking the demon's advocate position here... That's a big difference between that and saying they're sterile. Saying they "don't have children" doesn't mean they're infertile, it could just mean the boy margonites think the girl margonites have cooties.  Just because they've lost interest in sex doesn't mean they can't reproduce.  --Tometheus 19:56, 14 February 2007 (CST)

Assorted Lore, on the Margonites
Perhaps we cancollect the in-game references here for easy reference?


 * In the end dialogue with Head Priest Vahmani of the Warning Kehanni mission, he says of the Margonites: '"...These twisted humans are known as Margonites. The oldest were part of Abaddon's initial battle with the gods, whereas the youngest are twisted and "blessed" through Varesh's dark rituals."'--Rafe Alexander 12:09, 1 March 2007 (CST)