Talk:Game updates/Archive19

Gief Updaet
Is it gonna be today? It's late Thursday here. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.158.101.144 (contribs).


 * It's only noon on a Thursday at A.Net HQ, so if it's coming, it might not be for a little while. Sometimes it shows up late or early, or not at all, just to note. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> .cнаt^  20:11, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Linsey's journal said there'd be one this week, so it's coming.  &not; Wizårdbõÿ777  ( talk ) 20:44, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * ARG!! Update Need I!Wont last long...Durga Dido 20:46, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * What will the update bring anyways? Will it sport some rebalancing? I hope so, VoR, WS, WoH and BA start to piss me off.


 * Most people just want the update so they can getz-keys. 75.92.46.118 22:33, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * need moar updatez!!! - Rabus 22:44, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Most people just want the update so they can getz-keys. how so?? what does it change?


 * Well according to Lindsey they have been very busy over there at Anet with this update. (People still use BA?!)Durga Dido 23:41, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You must not RA much...turret is very popular still mostly because of the lack of viable bow elites and that they just keep buffing BA into orbit. VoR can be pretty damn nasty...WoH is only a pain in the ass because the monks immediately drop into low spec 75% block stances...dervs are meh.  They need to address hexway and the current sin meta which is as annoying as ever.  98.219.48.111 00:17, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Other than the BB Sin, Sins are pretty much dead in PvP, tbh. They need buffs and less fragile chains. ــѕт.  мıкε  01:45, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Update is here.(edit check dev updates)Durga Dido 01:29, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It's Over 300!! (files that is)...So where the hell's the patch notes? --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]

(eats indent) Wow... just, wow... King Neoterikos 02:08, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Edit: |NvM, I'm an Idjit ...Also: Holy cow, it's HUGE son --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]
 * All updated and pretty for you all :P -- [[Image:Isk8.png]]  Isk8   (T/C) 02:23, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I gotta say... I love the new instant minion army... RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 03:06, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Palm Strike's added snare makes its aftercast less of an issue. You could probably make a solid pressure sin with Palm Strike and a handful of dual attacks.  I foresee this getting nerfed at a speed slightly slower than the near light-speed nerf of Way of the Assassin. Lazuli  03:16, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Annnd another update. Wonder what got nerfed :P [[Image:ParAmSIG.jpg]](T/C) 03:32, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

The Giganto Update
Well, a nice "quick" analysis of some of the things here: PvE changes: Yep. "Quick" indeed, took half an hour to write this motherfucker. And what the fuck? Motherfucker is IN the FF dictionary! --Gimmethegepgun 03:45, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Mark of Insecurity: awesome now
 * Palm Strike: RIDICULOUS now
 * Seeping Wound: pretty nice now, though some Vermin farmers are gonna be angry (ZOHNOES!)
 * Wastrel's Collapse: FINALLY it's a viable skill, and in fact it looks pretty nice to me! I actually COMMEND Izzy for THIS one! (the apocalypse is coming!)
 * Reaper's Sweep: a decent buff, notable lack of WS nerf though
 * Blinding Surge: oh wtf now it doesn't even need them to be enchanted to blind everything next to them? Come on. At least the duration went down though
 * Double Dragon: pretty decent looking, the huge Fire Magic boost isn't THAT horrible since you can't use a different elite because of that
 * Energy Boon: huh, interesting. Is it an instant-casting enchantment or a skill?
 * Ether Prism: well, the name doesn't make any sense now. And instant casting enchantment? the hell? And PLEASE tell me they increased the recharge and forgot to note it, otherwise we're gonna see Dervs running around completely invincible in the near future using Extend Enchantments . Well, it seems they THANKFULLY increased the recharge to 15, so there'll be none of that. Good spike stopper I guess, and decent energy gain, but not really worthy of elite status IMO
 * Fevered Dreams: oooh daze! Not bad
 * Power Leach: wow that energy steal value is RETARDEDLY high, it's like Shame mixed with Guilt, but without the skill failure or the ENDING
 * Recurring Insecurity: Well, looks like Soul Barbs spiking is over, though I think that Soul Barbs + RI + Drain Delusions + Shatter Delusions may become popular, that could be pretty nasty! Also great cover hex if you get it on top, they remove it and it'll come right back!
 * Shared Burden: Nearby range for all that? ouch
 * Symbols of Inspiration: That could turn out interesting, though still pretty unreliable
 * Boon Signet: Far underpowered IMO
 * Life Sheath: so it's RoF except elite with condition removal. Rather use Weapon of Remedy honestly
 * PnH: YOWZA! It's actually good! Though a question: why does it disable your Smiting Prayers?
 * Ray of Judgment: So, it's an elite Holy Wrath. SUCK! I mean, yeah, it hurts, but seriously it's a PBAoEDoT. When are those EVER good?
 * AotL: wow, instant mega army, and probably full energy if you're in PvE (minion overload, massive energy for any necro in range) and then +1 DM as a topping. Nerf imminent
 * Cultist's Fervor: now THIS is what it should've been all along! This could see great use
 * Lingering Curse: Ouch, sucks to be the monks on the other team, eh? And now Flesh Golems are gonna be even MORE annoying. Oh joy!
 * Weaken Knees: So it's a Necro elite Shameful Fear. Yay for necromancers stealing other classes' skills!
 * "Incoming!": So... it's "Fall Back!" without the ending clause... and in Command. Whooptie-fucking-doo, the name doesn't make any sense now.
 * "It's just a flesh wound.": So the name makes ABSOLUTELY no sense in the SLIGHTEST any more, and is STILL in Motivation. At least they should get their ONE (lolz) energy back now!
 * Angelic Bond: A party-wide Divine Intervention that only triggers on one person and then dies. Boo.
 * Archer's Signet: And yet the only 2 conditions worth lengthening, Burning and Daze, are both caused by elites. It's Practiced Stance all over again, except without ONE useful combo.
 * Spike Trap: So they doubled it's power (basically) and made it harder to dodge. Annoying, better for UW trappers, kinda lame otherwise still.
 * Strike As One: Well, pretty much anything is better than what it USED to be, and this looks kinda evil. You cripple your target, the pet TELEPORTS there and then covers the cripple with bleeding. Evil.
 * Trapper's Focus: WS boost, not bad. Still kinda lame though since traps still kinda blow
 * Clamor of Souls: Decent looking staple skill. Too bad its elite.
 * Destructive Was Glaive: No more enchantment dump on end, and lasts a hell of a lot longer. THAT will probably be the staple elite of Channeling from now on since it lasts FOREVER! (Fuck off Clamor, you SUCK!)
 * Enraged Smash: MUCH less of a niche skill, might see some general use. Yay adrenaline-based hammer version of Bull's Strike (which also fuels itself, unless they neglected to say they added a recharge)
 * Hundred Blades: gogo Whirlwind Attack farming!
 * Primal Rage: Elite Frenzy with speed boost packed in. MUCH better than before.
 * Whirling Axe: So basically an adrenaline-based Wild Blow without adrenaline dump. And Elite. And uses axe rather than a certain other one that uses a spear
 * Shadow Form: Still EXACTLY as maintainable, it'll just slow people a bit since they have to recast more
 * Avatar of Grenth: no blocking vs enchanted AND lifesteal? pretty nice
 * Signet of Ghostly Might: holyshitownage
 * Signet of Spirits: Sucks for the same exact reasons Spirit Boon Strike sucks: Recharge is too long, and nothing in Channeling really needs healing (seeing how there's uhh... jack shit... for spirits in Channeling save for Bloodsong (which heals itself) and Destruction (which has loads of health anyway))


 * Quick summary for the attention-impaired: Power creep. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:01, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Silly Entropy. They nerfed Shadow Form (slightly)! This balances out everything else. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> .cнаt^  05:03, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * VoR's much needed nerf comes about in the form of a buff. Power creep.  Lazuli  05:18, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * And WS's nerf comes in the form of a.... uh.... nothing --Gimmethegepgun 05:20, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Well PnH kind of nerfs it too, though I don't believe it's that overpowered. I, for one, think Flesh Golems are now less annoying.  But I tend to run three enchantments on my main. Lazuli  05:26, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * SF isn't maintainable as an ele anymore i think.
 * Elite frenzy is good? Now you can kill yourself faster than ever.... 217.234.231.197 07:40, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Warriors already use Frenzy as an IAS, since it's easy to cancel it out with Rush. The downside of Frenzy (aside from the double damage and all that) is that you can't use a speed boost stance at the same time. I think for that reason alone, some people will give up their elite to bring this and maybe a blocking stance to cancel it (or just Rush again). --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> .cнаt^  07:51, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * For once I would like to say thanks Anet, a lot of these changes are pretty nice, the change to aura of the lich is cool (even though I liked the old one too), I would have like to see the dmg reduction in Shadow Form to be removed but o well, and I must say the elementalist changes are pretty cool too. One of your better updates, even if there are a few negative things in there :) [[Image:Shogankillername.jpg|x19px]] 13:19, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you Anet for the shitty ranger updates...Scorn 17:52, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

What gep said, with a few extra notes:

Palm Strike: WTF?!

Seeping Wound: Uhhh... huh?! So at 12 Critical Strikes, given the preconditions are met, you deal 260 damage over time. Throw in a good combo, and bitches don't stand a chance.

Onslaught: Not bad, but possibly very exploitable.

Double Dragon: Actually worth using now, though that Fire Magic bonus could seal the casket of the unwary in very short order.

Energy Boon: Great... Just what Ele's need, more maximum energy.

Ether Prism: Spike prevention with energy bonus. Whoopee.

Fevered Dreams: A constant Epidemic, with a bit more icing on the cake.

Power Leech: Yet even more power for e-denial mesmers.

Shared Burden: GIMP-STORM.

Ray of Judgment: Might be good in PvE or against stupid minions along with its non-elite counterparts.

Aura of the Lich: CHECK PLZ.

"Incoming!": Add in "Fall Back!" for more running with health boost.

Hundred Blades: Where does Izzy live? My sledgehammer has an appointment with his face.

There's my 2⅞ cents. talk 21:54, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I sense some sarcasm. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 22:45, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * And I sense cake. [[Image:RHSig.jpg]] talk 03:41, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Galrath Slash
so does this now mean it is a prophecies AND factions skill since you could cap it with signet of capture in sunjaign? 13:21, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * No. If you cap it in F, it's disabled for use (padlocked), unless you own P. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  15:03, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I thought they'd changed that to where skills from campaigns you don't own appear locked on the SoC window and you can't capture them in the first place. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:08, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmm, never heard of that. I own all campaigns, so, blah. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  17:51, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Did someone check to see if it was a typo? It's POSSIBLE they might've given him Silverwing Slash like they were supposed to (why am I being an unrealistic optimist? That's not like me!) --Gimmethegepgun 20:43, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * i was there earlier to cap hundred blades on my warr, pretty sure it was Galrath slash he had and not Silverwing Slash Kurtan 22:55, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I thought about silverwing too after i posted this, I can just imagine some Anet employee with OCD 5 minutes before they launched the update "we only have 44 changes! omgomgomg, we need one more! -clicks random page wiki option- -copy & paste- -sigh-" lol [[Image:Shogankillername.jpg|x19px]] 00:08, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * imo, they changed it coz tiger stance+hundred blades on a boss with double damage+X% more depending on level proved too difficult to beat in nm...in hm, coz of perma hundred blades(hm recharge reduction), auto ias, galrath slash and even higher level it must be funny lol -- [[Image:Practiced Stance.jpg | 20px]]89.134.135.215 17:55, 15 December 2008 (UTC)


 * You give Anet too much testing credit... RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 18:46, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, since you do not have a talkpage: Dear IP, please, do not use skill icons as your signature. You can copy the icon and upload it under your own sig name, if you like.  Signatures are supposed to be 19px, not 20.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 18:48, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * He actually is a registered user, but is too lazy to sign in (I think). [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 19:54, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Still needs to upload his/her own sig image and make it x19px. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 19:55, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, Entropy, if you happen to know who that person is, tell them the sig rules. We don't want a trail of talk links on the Practiced Stance icon. :P RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 21:40, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Functionality Changed trend too high
Balancing points around a little is certainly to be expected. But changing functionality completely destroys builds that some of those who like experimenting enjoy. I'm not saying these are strong builds, I'm just saying ANet is punishing those who make up builds for the pure fun of the game. Those people should be encouraged, not punished. The trend in recent updates to have so many "functionality changes" is one that looses confidence in the company. --Mooseyfate 20:54, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It also messes up the Hero A.I. when they forget to change the programming, which is EXTREMELY annoying... I shouldn't have to fucking Micromanage every little use of their Elite powers b/c Anet forgot to change the ideal situations they're SUPPOSED to be using those Elites in. --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]
 * My symbols of inspiration build got turned into a shitty version og sig of humulity(without disable) and arcane theivery. :( THey say they want to push alternatives, but we've got 3 mesmer elites that now focus on using opponents skills (sig of illusions, stonlen thievery, and symbols) and at lest six reg ular skills that use foes skills ( the inspiried/reveals, and arcanes). I understand they want to make more skills useable, but a little more imaginationwould be nice 76.188.100.220 21:21, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Why are people comparing the new Symbols of Insp with Sig of Humil? It's nothing alike, in terms of use. Sig of Humil just disables it. Symbols copies it and gives it rank x (x=FC rank). Also, Sig of Illusions isn't specifically an enemy's skills... PvE skills, secondaries.. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  21:30, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Generally because they're the only skills that directly relate to an opponents elite skill (not counting price of pride) 76.188.100.220 21:34, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I think they are doing this to try and deal with power creep. King Neoterikos 23:13, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * they're doing a poor job of it by only buffing, if they wanted to stop power creep they'ed stop buffing and nerf abused skills. Specifically in the case of symbols, the skill is dumb because its another way to do the same thing. 76.188.100.220 23:18, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not opposed to the functionality changes - they add some variety to the game and new life for some elites that comparatively speaking were not used as much. I definitely agree with ilr's post about hero AI though.  If the developers radically change a skill's functionality but forget to adjust how hero AI uses it, they've frustrated their player base and created cause for the skill to not be used, which is contrary to the goal of modifying it in the first place.  Shadowlance 01:29, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Personally, I think it was just Izzy's time of the month and he decided to use his double-headed penny to determine which skills got changed completely. Izzy should be brought before the judges of GW and tried for his crimes.  Then again, he'd probably be drawn and quartered.  [[Image:RHSig.jpg]] talk 01:34, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I can personally say that Heroes use PnH just fine (like any other removal, they cast it at the first sign of trouble, and again whenever it's recharged). They probably don't use the new Energy Storage ones well at all, nor Enraged, etc. One thing I've been told from ANet employee is that while they do try to test things to make sure they work, that mostly involves someone going out with the skill on their bar and pressing the button. (Of course, SaO was still bugged, but...w/e) They don't really have the time or resources to test every aspect of skills: how Heroes will use them, what missions and quests will become harder, what will happen to PvP. I mean, it's obvious that PnH is supposed to be the one-stop answer to hexway, but beyond that they can't see into the future when they make changes. They just don't have that capability. (Remember the WoH buffs, and removing Forgotten Sages? Yeah.)
 * Anyway, "Functionality change" is something I usually dislike seeing, because it tends to cause more problems than it solves. I like it when they take shitty skills like Wastrel's Collapse and actually make them usable by more than one bad gimmicky build. I don't like it when these new skills become completely imba and break things (read: AotL). You can rework an elite to make it more viable, but just because it was horrible before doesn't give you free license to make it ridiculously powerful now... [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 04:11, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * My absolute favorite thing is when Anet completely changes the function of unused skills. It breathes new life and opportunity into the game, creating entirely new gameplay possibilities. Yall should stop yer whining. Seriously. (GW-Kiron 06:06, 14 December 2008 (UTC))
 * I mean, its anets freaking game. They have the "right" to do whatever the eff they want with the skills. Its beyond generous of them to try and balance competitive play, its something we dont even deserve. They dont get paid by us with monthly subscrips for it. Some of your attitudes beat everything Ive ever seen. (GW-Kiron 06:10, 14 December 2008 (UTC))


 * Well said. King Neoterikos 06:40, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * QQ about the QQing more pls.--Łô√ë [[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg|Ho ho ho.]]îğá †ħŕášħ 06:42, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "the one-stop answer to hexway". Yeah, now hexers will just toss Soul Barbs in there somewhere and dump RI on top of the stack and PnH becomes a death wish. Maybe throw in Fragility and a couple conditions for even more fun. And Remove Hex will also be utterly useless again since it will do absolutely NOTHING with RI on top. Except trigger Soul Barbs --Gimmethegepgun 06:44, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

(Gimme, that's beside the point.) Kiron, you're buying GW2, I assume? (T/C) 07:14, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If its a good game and I still hve time for this stuff, Ill buy it, just like the original. (GW-Kiron 14:52, 14 December 2008 (UTC))
 * Anyway, using awful builds based on crappy elites is not a good argument for keeping them, it just makes you look bad.[[Image:Ereanorsign.jpg]]reanor 15:22, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I partially aggree with this topic, some of these skills have changed enough (and the old versions were good enough) that they should have just been new skills completely; EotN still doesnt have any elite skills exclusive to it, I doubt it would be immensly hard to pop a few new skills in up there. But then again some of the skills only change about 25% of their function and I aggree it can be annoying, but they should remain the same skill like they have been and I guess we just have to deal with it. [[Image:Shogankillername.jpg|x19px]] 17:13, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Disagree w/ topic, I believe changed functionality rewards those who are creative and like to toy around with builds. I believe the only ones it really hurts are those who lack creativity and need to use the same builds over and over again because said builds probably win hard. (note: I lack creativity and have abused the hell out of sabway and any other build I find that wins hard, yay necro +1 immunity to nerfs.) Deviant Priest 22:59, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Dec 18th?
At 5:40pm EST I just got a big file download (over 110 files)... Did anyone else just get a new patch too or was this a nluke? --ilr
 * I didn't bother to look how many files I downloaded, but a few of my friends told me there was an update on msn so. ;P Probably a few wintersday updates? Xxteacakez 22:43, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Decorations for wintersday are up [[Image:Zefirsig.jpg|19px]] God Zefir  22:49, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Parsing gw.dat for new info as I type this. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 22:54, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Lol
Increased faction gain per kill in Amatz Basin to 5. guess giving 1 faction per kill was bad idea--67.165.112.125 01:06, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Jingle Bear
Before the update this dumbass "suprise reward" was labeled "R5 Jingle Bear" and now it is "Lvl 5 Jingle Bear" should this be noted? 01:01, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That's probably the bug they had to fix to make it tamable. Tamable pets don't have a profession, which means it should show as "Lvl 5 Jingle Bear", as it does now.  "R5 Jingle Bear" meant that it was a standard, non-tamable NPC with its profession set to ranger.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 01:46, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Uh... last I recall most (maybe all) pets were R5. At least in Presearing they are, that's the last place I checked.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 02:43, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "Fixed a bug that prevented players from taming the Jingle Bear." o flippitty ding, its tameable now, still has to be the 2nd worst thing (behind loot scaling) that Anet has thought of. Its a friken polar bear with bow on it that you cant even tell is there if you get up close, not to mention it is exclusive to rangers.  They better be pulling a "lets get them pissed and then give them the REAL suprise" or your going to see in the headlines of the newspaper "Gunman Kills ## in AreaNet Building Shooting" [[Image:Shogankillername.jpg|x19px]] 15:18, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * How are pets exclusive to rangers? Any character can go /R and tame a pet, a lot of people do that just to have an extra meatshield in the party.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:36, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Hello, I don't mean to be rude, but they have actualy bothered to add something new this year. They could have given us the same thing as last year, but they actually added something new. New = work, and work = not cheap. So please stop QQ'ing, and brighten up. Its nearly X-mas after all. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 19:19, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * They added all the EotN wintersday quests. fair enough, but the polar bear pet isn't really new content. The model has been ingame for a logn time, it's just been scaled down. I tamed/am going to tame it on every character I run through. But That's more because I'm a collector than because I like it. Something I think they should have done is to make the miniature polar bear easier to get. The droprate on that thing, plus only being possible to get 2 weeks/year, just seems wrong for an event item. Viruzzz 10:49, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * AMEN. Give people a piece of candy for free, but no, they'll demand the whole box...  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 19:47, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * But... but... I wanna tame a Wintersday Moa! *whines inconsolably* Dx--72.220.203.111 23:11, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * In addition to what Arnout aka The Emperors Angel said, you also have to remember that a lot of the ANet staff is also working on a little thing called Guild Wars 2. You know, the big sequel to this game that we're playing? So, yeah. Cut 'em a break. 66.207.82.44 00:11, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * 72.220.203.111, Jingle bear wtfpwns wintersday moa anyday. Stupid dancing bird. puh. Big ass bear (with a cute bell) ftw! Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 09:56, 21 December 2008 (UTC)