User talk:PanSola/The Spirit Challenge/0.05

Section 0
Needs something to deal with Signets. Specifically, a team of 8 /Me's with Unnatural Signet. Entrea   [Talk]  03:23, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, didn't read the main page. Twelve /Me's. Probably mostly N/ or E/ to get mostly non-harmful effects, with a couple or three Holy Haste/Glimmer/Healer's Boon M/Me's for hard-to-interrupt-while dazed healing... Destroyed.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]] Entrea   [Talk]  03:32, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Between extended casting time, an AoE interrupts, and knockdowns, a team of Dervishes might actually have a higher DPS than Unnatural Signet spam? With Dervishes, the monks can stay out of spirit range and heal too, whereas with Mesmers, monks need to come close and risk being dazed. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 03:35, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, the challenge is in the speed, not doability. This is not meant to be impossible.  It's a race. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 03:35, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * True. Twelve Banishing Strike dervishes or such could probably take everything out pretty fast.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]] Entrea   [Talk]  03:43, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Are my spirits causing so little DPS that you really can ignore healing completely? -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 03:47, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Dervishes have various assorted heals, several of which actually depend on the enchantments being removed. Hard to tell how much damage the spirits would be doing without actual testing, but I'd think 13 spirits vs 12 players wouldn't individually do enough damage to kill them if they had even token self-heals.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]] Entrea   [Talk]  03:58, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmm, should I toss in more conditions and/or reduce their durations? I was kind of hoping by having virtually constant Spiteful Spirit, Fragility, and lots of conditions flying around, that damage will actually matter (in 0.04 it was just a minor annoyance). -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 04:02, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The "remove Glyph" seems a bit weak for ele's. Perhaps add in some energy loss or something. Also, the note on the "Lyssian Epidemical Spirit of Fragile Dreams" is not correct, and what's the point of the abbadon spirit's effect on warriors if the "Ursan Raging Spirit of Echoing Roar" already causes permanent weakness on everything? Perhaps make nr2's effect on wars that they lose a few strikes of adrenaline. And finally: the raven spirit seems a bit underpowered. Raise the block to 25% I'd say.--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir 06:03, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree that /E is pretty much a safe secondary against Chaotic Toes, but without Glyph Removal, Glyph of Sacrifice will just pwn the challenge. And I am not sure if having Chaotic Toes do TWO things to eles is being unfair or not )-:  Good catch on Warrior btw.  As for Raven Spirit, I was worried that making it too high might discourage all weapon-based builds... Would 25% block simply drive everyone to use Mesmer builds? -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 09:23, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Umm, Adrenaline denial would just make /W a safe secondary. Gotta find something that also hurt casters while keeping it thematic... -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 09:28, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmmm, that's right... But weakness is already applied by that other spirit, and I'm not really sure what else would hinder a warrior. Perhaps giving some sort of Barbs effect on wars (since they got high armor)? And the raven: you're right, so perhaps boosting his attack effect would be better. --[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir 09:33, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The only other thematic Raven thing to add would be blind... Which probably discourages weapon builds even more than 25% block rate though >_<"""  -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 10:17, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Like perma-weakness (minus sixty-six per cent damage) is not extremely discouraging. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  17:14, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Most of the extra damage from skills still work just fine, if you overlook the attribute reduction that casters also suffer. A weapons-without-skills build would be really screwed, but with attack skills I'd consider weapons-build still viable with perma-weak.  But then, I *could* be very wrong.  -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 02:14, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * True. But seeing "-50" rather than "-166" is a major difference (Haven't done math, just an example). AoHM and Asuran Scan are, for what I know, adding to Base damage, and are thus affected by Weakness. Weakness also reduces attributes by 1, making you another bit weaker. Weapon-based teams are fucked anyhow. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  12:00, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Attribute reduction also hurts casters, remember. Citing two skills being seriously hurt does not form a powerful argument since I easily find more caster skills/builds being completely screwed in this challenge (Hex-based builds are 99% useless, for example).  Considering the great majority of attack skills provide bonus damage instead of boosting the base damage, I think it is still possible to have perma-weakness without having weapon-based teams being noticeably more fucked than caster teams (or hybrid teams).  -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 22:31, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * You cannot Hex spirits, making every hex completely pointless (including Asuran Scan, incidentally). And yes, it's possible, but spells are much more effective since their effect is not reduced by one ton and then some, but only by that "and then some". Signet Warrior to avoid the DP-penalty? Meh. Perma weakness is just insane. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  16:11, 10 April 2009 (UTC)


 * In 0.05, the Spirit Spamming dude is a Ghostly "spirit", so it is actually hexable (thus not "completely" pointless, just 99% useless and generally not viable). Anyways, weakness is no longer "perma" (spikes might be able to be coordinated using if somebody has Martyr and avoids the interrupts to pull the Weakness).  BTW, casters have 2x casting time plus multiple sources of disruptions (AoE interrupt, disable, KDs).  I'd argue that probably decreases overall long-term caster DPS by more than 66% (they might have higher one-shot spike output), since double cast time already halves their DPS before you factor in the interrupts (which generally hurt attack skills less than spells, considering most attack skills are instant).  I would like to tweak the caster handicap to be generally comparably insane to what weapon-builds suffer (melee are likely to be a lot more screwed than ranged though, due to the movement restrictions).  If you still feel weapons vs spells builds are unbalanced, I welcome ideas that make the caster handicap more comparable to the revised 75%-of-the-time-weakness. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 22:44, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Chaotic Toes on Ele
I modified it to increase skill activation time by 2 seconds. I think this will still address Glyph of Sacrifice/Essence issues while also have an impact on most builds. What I'm not sure is if this would completely shut down the use of Primary or Secondary eles... -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 02:26, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, since the "Lyssian Distracting Cry Spirit of Conundrum" already doubles casting time, that means that any spell you cast will take at least 4.5 seconds to cast, or doesn't the conundrum affect the extra cast time? And since that same spirit attacks every 2 seconds interupting and disabling stuff, I'd say that it will indeed shut down any E/X or X/E. I'd say reduce to 1 seconds or at least make it unaffected by conudrum.--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir 04:34, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Well the addition comes last, so it is indeed unaffected by Conundrum. It also isn't a global range effect, as it only affects players being hit.  Would this be ok enough?  Or are Eles still being screwed too much? -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 22:17, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Chaotic Toes on Rangers
The current "remove stance" is pretty useless on build that don't use stances at all. Need better ideas that is thematic with Rangers while also has an effect on bulids not using any Ranger skills... -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 22:39, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * This may be a bit extreme, but you could always go the path of Atrophy and kill the rangers' expertise <.< -- [[Image:Ayaname Wolf Sig.JPG]] Ayaname Wolf 22:59, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * That doesn't feel like something "Ranger-themed that affects /R builds not using Ranger skills". )-: -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 23:07, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * ah, i see, this ability has 2 effects per character ala primary/secondary. Perhaps reduce the affected target's armor vs elemental damage, and make the /w one reduced vs physical? as rangers are known to have high armor vs. elements. -- [[Image:Ayaname Wolf Sig.JPG]] Ayaname Wolf 23:13, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Except I have no source of elemental/physical damage T_T -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 23:36, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Cracked Armor absent
Is it just me or do you thumbs-down the existence of this Condition in its integrity? I'm sure it has a room in a Balthazarian spirit. If not, create a special-case Spirit that causes nothing but CA, for GW:EN's sake :P --Alcedo talk -cont  22:47, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Cracked Armor does not affect most casters, so I decided to create a separate effect of Armor-Halving that affects everybody instead. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 23:05, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Hmm, that said, Dazed doesn't really affect warriors... let me reconsider... -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 23:08, 9 April 2009 (UTC)