User talk:Mister Muscolo/Builds/hydra

Discussion
Note: there's a similar build, but its usage is a bit different - needs running etc.

Anyway, why are people grumbling and nit-picking about this build? This is about FARMING Hydras, so the bottom line is how long does this build take to finish a group of 3 hydras? I suggest that people should just test it, and post their typical times here as justification for why the build is great or sucks. I've personally tried something similar to for hydra farming (but I had a zealous axe, penetrating chop and blow as the adrenaline skills, and strength at 15). With my axe build I could finish a group of 3 hydras in just over 1 minute can't remember exactly but was slower than a 55 SoJ monk, so I haven't bothered posting that build. Still I think my axe build has better survivability than this build get lots of health from cyclone axe and triple chop. Even if another group of hydras wanders in you have no problems (unless you lag. Lag = no dolyak = dead). 218.208.194.74 11:00, 28 February 2007 (CST) (targetdrone).

Sprint is not needed. You should really consider using Gash for the Deep Wound - it makes killing a lot faster. --  n 00kie  (Ping) 10:34, 27 February 2007 (CST)

And please delete the 'Special Thanks' section. If you don't do it, someone else will --  n 00kie  (Ping) 10:35, 27 February 2007 (CST)

15 energy for a weak healing spell ?? -- SigmA 10:39, 27 February 2007 (CST)

Shield of Regeneration is a great spell. Nice duration, short casting time and the 40 armor means half damage from most sources in addition to the hefty regeneration. That said, I'm not sure it's that good on a Tank. And about attributes, do NOT put up builds assuming the person is anything less than a level 20 with access to good equipment. Builds must use the best possible configuration.NightAngel 11:29, 27 February 2007 (CST)

OK ok... i will delete the thanks section i nabout 2 mins, i just puted up that config. warnirng so that people can see that even the players who arent the best, let alone are only thru the desert may get a nice income, yes? i mean, be free to boost any att. for what i care. @sigma: you arent quite a smart boy are you? Shield of Regen is one of the greatest healing spells as far as i'm concerned.

thx for feedback. Mister Muscolo 17:25, 27 February 2007 (CET)

Healing Breeze? way better. 5 less energy and just better. -- SigmA 12:14, 27 February 2007 (CST)

I'm sorry but can you please note 40 armor bonus and that 5 energy doesn't really count in this build? and that you're precious Healing Breeze has 3-8 hp regen and sheild has 3-9? thanks for noting.Mister Muscolo 17:31, 27 February 2007 (CET)

omg warriors have highest armor in the game, why add even more. Besides, its 15(!!) energy, and a warrior has 2 eergy regeneration pips. 1 SoR and kablowie, out of energy. -- SigmA 12:26, 27 February 2007 (CST)

dolyak signet + balth spirit + mending + vig spirit and sentinels armor will already keep you alive against them, use a elite like hundred blades and a good stance like flail and u got a hydra farmer wich can defeat 3-4 hydra's at a time. dont see why u need those healing elites......

ok, @ sigma: you never have 2 much armor, and the 2/8 skills used for energy regen are really hard to not see. I am simpathetic to youre cause. <- sarcasm. @ unnamed: my build can take down 3-4 hydras at a time. plus this build is a result of a very borring math class so gratz 2 me again. And if you have a good idea or you think so, well, post it and wait aroud for feedback.Mister Muscolo 17:48, 27 February 2007 (CET)

You really can't stand criticism, can you? -- SigmA 12:40, 27 February 2007 (CST)

No, i dont stand people who think they know more than they do. please i'll take criticism with a good background anytime. oh, about sprint, you can either use that or gash, i didnt see a big time difference, when i used my stopwatch to time a build with sprint and a build without it. Mister Muscolo 17:51, 27 February 2007 (CET)

SigmA, excuse me for saying this, but you're the troll here. The man wants to post a build which will undergo vetting procedure. If you don't like it, unfavor it. Until then, try thinking out of the box. --  n 00kie  (Ping) 13:17, 27 February 2007 (CST)
 * Uh huh. Really, I don't care about hydra farming at all, but "Shield of Regeneration is shit" is a bad reason. Mainly becuase it's not shit. --Silk Weaker 09:05, 3 March 2007 (CST)

Indeed. The build is certainly not above criticism, but I would like to see criticism with solid reasoning behind it. Healing breeze is NOT better than Shield of Regeneration, for instance. Now, you COULD say that shield is an elite, and that as far as elites goes there are better elites for self-defense when farming, and then suggest one that works better, say, (this is just an example from a Rit farming build I once saw) Vengeful Was Kanhei, or some warrior elite, etc, etc. But this is an old story. Constructive or even sound arguments are not a requirement to vote either way, and such are the rules as they stand, for better or worse. NightAngel 13:33, 27 February 2007 (CST)

Since your main damage is from sword you would wish to keep it as high as posible, 12-14, even if it means you will have about 2 second gap in duration of dolyak signet witch isnt realy a big deal. Using flail as main stance would make killing alot faster, but still build should be able to handle at least 6+ hydras whit no larger resistance, like HH based Wammo builds do =D Biz 13:52, 27 February 2007 (CST)

Mr. Muscular here is flaming at every comment I make. This build is just bad, BAD! -- SigmA 14:03, 27 February 2007 (CST)
 * I fail to see the flames. I don't know him or anything, but I really think you're exaggerating based on the fact that this is a W/Mo build. --  n 00kie  (Ping) 14:20, 27 February 2007 (CST)
 * Nah, I've got nothing against Wammos, but this is a piece of poo. This will be a really shame if it gets in tested builds section. -- SigmA 14:22, 27 February 2007 (CST)

Ok, i'll make some adjustments for more DMG ingame first, expect the change to the build in 24h max. I love it, that some ppl like the wammos being rezed form the dead ;) (poor trols)Mister Muscolo 20:10, 27 February 2007 (CET)

this is insanely close to the build I use for hydras. However, to the creator I would say that maybe I would put a note about zealous weapon being more than enough energy? (if you use flail).. I think Balthazar's Spirit plus Essence Bond is kind of overkill. I think one should be enough if you're not using a zealous weapon. The only time just one won't get enough energy to do SoR is when there's 1 hydra. And then, you won't need it more than once anyway. And I don't see a need for sprint either. EDIT: I guess Sprint is for running from group to group. But then, I'm sure you would agree that Enraging Charge would be better. Also, it appears that this is a prophecies build? is that by design or chance?

Anyway, about SoR versus Healing Breeze. And the extra armor. Yes, you need the extra armor. With Dolyak Signet and Healing breeze the hydra spells do something like damage in the 30s (I have the bonus +10 against elemental damage though). EDIT: That sentence was based on recall. I actually went back, and it's only 16 damage for Meteor/Fireball, with Inferno in the 20s/30s.) It might seem like this is overkill, but having it this way enables you to fight more at a time.

To the person who put the Vigorous Spirit build, claiming that you can kill 3-4 at a time? That may be so, but using SoR/Dolyak/Flail and Sword Adrenal attacks (with zealous weapon), it's hardly a bother to kill 7 or 8 at the same time. And if you don't have a zealous weapon, just drop one of your sword adrenal skills for balth spirit or essence bond.


 * Hm... never really came to think of the build this way... it is all prophecies... i mean a lot of people i know have only prophecies but that shouldn't be a matter to develop this build into different ways too. Ok. enraging charge is way better than sprint i am not familiar with recharge times and such but still. i will put a mental note to start developing on a multi - campagin build for maximizing the effect. right now i will stick to making a perfect prophecies only with 185 att. just for the hack of it, because you don't see many viable 185 point builds around here lately, or ever. The Zelaous mod sounds fine, just fine. will make some adjustments with that too. I think we're getting somewere right now. Well i don't want to spoil SigmA's fun but i will reply to flaming and sugestions in 8-10h, coz i'm going to sleep and then studi for 2h. then i will make changes in my build and on the build page. until then, thanks and please dont majorly edit the build page.

Thank you all. Mister Muscolo 21:23, 27 February 2007 (CET)

Thought I'd mention that you have smiting prayers at 2 which i presume goes towards Balthazar's Spirit. If you check out the entry about Balthazar's Spirit, you don't get strikes of adrenaline but points. Also, you're not at the break point to get to 3 points of adrenaline so unless you push it toe 3 Smiting, the points are wasted.--BeeD 01:09, 28 February 2007 (CST)

Fixed Smiting to 3+ so that Balthazar's Spirit has more effect and i made a new improved build in "variants", i used a skill bar so please dont delete it. And i have tried it out, a run took only 11 mins n i got even more cash than before. about 1.5k + items. thanks for suggestions it helped me improve my build. We probabilly can remove the cleanup sign now? Mister Muscolo 11:15, 28 February 2007 (CET)


 * As for your variant, I don't really think with Flail that Balth Spirit is necessary. Not only does it prevent you from gaining the slightest bit of energy between battles, but really all your energy only goes toward SoR and sometimes Enraging Charge. Sure, you gain slightest bit of adrenaline from it, but with Flail, and the natural adrenaline gain from getting hit, it's really not necessary IMO. Furthermore, I don't like Final Thrust since the build is adrenal-based. I suppose it's OK if you're using Zealous plus balth spirit (which I don't agree with, still), but I think you'd be better suited to drop Balth Spirit and use maybe Standing Slash and then Sun and Moon or Galrath Slash. For Essence Bond/Balthazar's Spirit, I would say:
 * Flail + Zealous: use neither
 * Flail OR Zealous but not both: Use Balth Spirit
 * No Flail AND no Zealous: Use Balth Spirit and Essence Bond.
 * Obviously from a DPS Standpoint the first will be preferable.

Ok, i personaly think that you dont need energy regen during battles because you gain it way faster in battle and you leave a battle with max energy-5 for sprint/enraging charge. And who ever said, that you can't have another weapon set? I mean i only give the idea, and how to get up to 2k in pure gold with it but i never said you can't be inovative. so another weap set would obviously prove good. Mister Muscolo 08:15, 1 March 2007 (CET)

Rate-a-build
''Please test and vote on. Testing is encouraged but not required.''

Favored:
 * 1) The new wammo? Maybe not, but using protection prayers and the new Shield of Regeneration could be viable. NightAngel 13:25, 27 February 2007 (CST)
 * 2) I love it, a Wammo with a lot of energy, and tons of extra armor and regen from Dolyak Signet and Shield of Regeneration.[[Image:Pogsigv2.jpg]] 13:58, 27 February 2007 (CST)
 * 3) It works, it has good healing and additional armor. --Swift Thief 21:21, 27 February 2007 (CST)
 * 4) SoR > Mending. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 01:37, 28 February 2007 (CST)
 * 5) Wammoing has ben changed forever -- X joseph X 11:07, 28 February 2007 (CST)
 * 6) Good build depending on variant used more or less effective, but needs a bit more polishing. Biz 05:31, 1 March 2007 (CST)
 * 7) Can lure groups of up to 6, can tank/kill groups of up to 10. It's fast and it works. I also got a White Dye :p --Zerris (talk) 20:47, 5 March 2007 (CST)
 * 8) It works. FRD 10:57, 6 March 2007 (CST)
 * 9) Makes it sound so easy and it really is. I hate hydra farming but this build does work and does it fairly fast. --Lania Elderfire[[Image:Pinkribbonsig.gif|My Talk]] 01:19, 7 March 2007 (CST)


 * Thank You all! TBH i didn't expect this build to turn out this good. Gotta go thank my math teacher for making such boring clases ;););). Thanks for helping me develop this. Mister Muscolo 10:30, 7.3.2007 (CET)

Unfavored: I don't exactly agree with all the points made against the build but I just don't see the point in farming excessively over farmed monsters that drop alot of cheap junk with a build that I'm sure could be improved. I'm going to see if I can do this with a different elite tonight and compare killing/risk and then I'll vote one way or the other. (Would it be possible to use Watch Yourself over SoR and maybe Healing Signet or Lion's Comfort over Sprint? Also, they attack in melee and you use a sword. Why not try a Parry/Riposte build? 204.52.179.199 10:54, 28 February 2007 (CST)
 * 1) My comments and anon comments above for explanation. -- SigmA 12:37, 27 February 2007 (CST)
 * 2) I agree with sigmA &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.131.56.167 (contribs).
 * Does this^ count ? --  n 00kie  (Ping) 00:35, 28 February 2007 (CST)
 * probabilly not. Mister Muscolo 11:18, 18 February 2007 (CET)
 * It does. Don't even think about striking it out plz :) Agreeing with Sigma is NOT a bannable offense yet NightAngel 09:00, 28 February 2007 (CST)
 * I was referring to the fact that he wasn't logged in, but I just read GW:YAV and it's legit. --  n 00kie  (Ping) 09:56, 28 February 2007 (CST)
 * Yeah, not yet... i won't i have more honor then that :) Mister Muscolo15:10, 28 February
 * Prooly no, because the gold droped is high and XP rate is also good and you don't need very good skills to get cash AND XP if you're a survivor. And, yes you could use WYS over SOR but that wont work since you dont have much tactics, now will it? Mister Muscolo
 * Dolyak Signet is essential for a warrior hydra farming build to work, it removes nearly 50% of the damage and gives immunity to knockdowns so keeping Dolyak up is vital. Using Healing Signet or Lion's Comfort interferes whit Dolyak, by removing armour bonus or prolonging recharge time, thus making those skills unfavourable. More tactics based skills are rather a variant or new build, not argument against this one. Biz 04:28, 5 March 2007 (CST)
 * The vote above wasn't a vote. 65.30.20.78 20:34, 5 March 2007 (CST)

Variants
Axe Variant: On a single hydra whit a zealus axe it will take 13 seconds to regain 15 energy needed for SoR under fail. Cyclone axe will be free if fighting more then 5 at once. Essence Bond is optional if a zealus axe is used. Protection prayers : 10 Strength: 10 +1 +2 Axe mastery: 11+3 +10 armour vs fire,+45 hp while enchanted shield Not yet tested on 5+ groups. Biz 04:46, 1 March 2007 (CST)
 * Tested Axe variant of the build on 4,5,6 and 9 hydras worked perfectly, variant used:
 * Equipment:
 * Armour Sentinels (100 armour vs ele), Shield +10 armour vs fire,+45 hp while enchanted shield, Zealouse +15% while enchanted axe of warding (+7 vs ele)
 * Attributes as above. Biz 15:40, 3 March 2007 (CST)
 * Attributes as above. Biz 15:40, 3 March 2007 (CST)

Very nice Axe Variant, will add to main page if you dont mind? Mister Muscolo 12:05

Dont mind =D this is for comon good not induvidual merit. If any one still has doubts about the build or simply dont like the protection prayers replace SoR whit HH and Essence Bond whit Live Vic. Biz

5k runs
Seriously. Before I lost my first account (4 months ago) I was using the ViM/Virulence W/Me build to do that run. And I would make it a point to clear most of the map of hydras. Unless drops or their values have increased in the mean while I really don't see how you could obtain multiple 5k runs. Unless you're more lucky than I am (and I really am), which is a rare occurrence. --  n 00kie  (Ping) 08:16, 1 March 2007 (CST)
 * Whit out reduced drops you do get around 5k after the merchant from full run (around the rock and back to where you started) killing all hydras you can find =D. What you do before the run is allso important killing few monsters on some other map and then going to kill hydras effects the drops. Biz 08:27, 1 March 2007 (CST)
 * How much you get from a full run is irrelevant for rating a farming build, unless you have proof that different farming builds produce different drops for a complete run. How _LONG_ it takes to do a full run is a better measure of how effective a hydra farming build is. The faster the better. That's why I asked how long it takes to kill a group of 3 hydras with this build. After all, even if a build can do a full run, it's not that useful if it takes hours to do so. 218.208.194.74 09:34, 1 March 2007 (CST) (targetdrone)
 * Using Flail, SoR, Enraging Charge, Flail, Sever Artery, Gash, Standing Slash, Silverwing Slash, with 14 Strength (EDIT: This should be 12 Str), 13 Swords, 11 Prot, it took me between 30 and 35 seconds to kill a group of three hydras. I used a Kaolin Blade and Reefclaw's Refuge. As I used a watch to time myself, a 5 second window is about the best I can do. FRD
 * Thanks! That's pretty good, but sounds like a very different (and higher DPS) build from "Wamo_Hydra_Farmer_DNK" tho. What armor are you using? I only have major runes on my axe+glad armor warrior, based on your attribs I rebalanced my attribs to - 10 Healing 14 str 12 axe (was 10 15 10 before), and my timings on 3 hydras have improved to around 45-55 seconds. Looks like I should get better kit or change my build ;). 218.208.194.74 11:51, 2 March 2007 (CST) (targetdrone)
 * Sentinel's armor, +10 armor vs fire +45 hp shield. Superior Axe and Major Strength +1 Strength Helmet. Biz
 * I posted my time and skills above. As you can see, the only departure from the build here is Standing Slash instead of Balthazar's Spirit and Silverwing Slash (or its duplicate Galrath Slash) instead of Final Thrust. Also, I messed up on my attributes above, my strength is actually 12, not 14. It ends up being:
 * Strength: 10+1+1
 * Swordsmanship: 10 + 3
 * Prot Prayers: 11
 * for me, I use customized Kaolin Blade, and Dragon Armor (full set), but really any max armor and any Zealous weapon should work. It's really pretty simple but if someone told me how I could make a video. Basically, find a group, use Enraging Charge to run to them, when you get within melee range of one use Dolyak Signet and Shield of Regeneration, after you attack once Flail will be charged, turn on Flail, then just use your adrenal skills, keeping up Flail, and using Dolyak Signet whenever it is recharged. If you're quick on changing targets after killing, you can have SoR up all the time with just the energy regen from Zealous+Flail, and even if you're not a little gap between will hardly make a difference, unless you're facing upwards of 6 hydras (in which case you can still win pretty easily but just have to pay a little more attention). FRD


 * There are two reasons why Strength should be high 13+, First is duration of Dolyak, Second is Sentinel's Armour that has a req 13 str, lower strength then 13 is how ever not recommended due to larger gap in Dolyak duration making it harder to survive larger groups. Difference between 10 and 11 prot prayers is 1 second in duration, making little difference, so attribute points can instead be used to raise weapon mastery or strength. Biz 08:55, 3 March 2007 (CST)


 * Hm..Biz is right. Even though I don't run it that way, I would probably be better served to run it at 11+1+1 str, 10 prot prayers. But I will stand by what I think from before, that it makes little difference either way. The few seconds dolyak signet is down is not enough to kill you. Second, I don't use Sentinel's Armor, in fact, I think it's really unnecessary for this. Sure, it helps a little more, but really Dolyak and SoR give you plenty of armor. In fact, it might even be better for me to drop Prot Prayers to 10, but raise Swordsmanship to 11+3 instead of strength. I sacrifice the tiniest bit of survivability (which there is a surplus of anyway) for the slightest bit more DPS. Of course, with the mad spamming of adrenal skills, Strength would increase DPS too.  Also, I think the next person (if any) would want to reset the indent. EDIT: Oops, forgot to sign. FRD 23:51, 3 March 2007 (CST)

There --  n 00kie  (Ping) 02:50, 4 March 2007 (CST)

Aggro
I seem to keep dieing when I try to aggro 10+ Hydras... it's starting to annoy me. --Zerris (talk) 20:01, 5 March 2007 (CST)
 * Just happened again. But at least I got a White Dye, so I'm happier. --Zerris (talk) 20:22, 5 March 2007 (CST)
 * There is little ways you can normally encounter more then 8 at same time, but when you do, your gear and timing on skills make all the difference, spend a small fortune on flawless anti fire shield maybe =D. Biz 04:06, 6 March 2007 (CST)
 * Don't worry about trying to aggro more hydras at once. Just do one or two groups of three at a time, and know that really you'll be fine. I find that the part where you take the most damage is right at the beginning, because after the first SoR use, you probably will have a few seconds before your second. Most of the time it won't be a problem. So anyway yeah, just aggro a few at a time, and when you're done swathing through whatever was just hitting you, run off to another group. FRD 10:57, 6 March 2007 (CST)
 * Agreed. But for those who actually do want to aggro 10+, I figured out a pretty good way.  Just wait till all energy regens (you'll need 20+) and try to find a place where they patrol.  Round up every one not in the patrol (maybe 5 or 6) and hit SoR + Shielding Hands.  Then run in and start hitting them, using Dolyaks as soon as you get in range. Use Cyclone to get enough energy for your second SoR.   By this time, the patrol will come back and engage, thus allowing you to safely fight 8-12 at once.  I never found a place where more then 12 could be aggro'd at once. --Zerris (talk) 16:53, 6 March 2007 (CST)

Edits
I want to know, do you think that it's better to have Dolyak signet up at all times or to have better swordsmanship/axe mastery and thus greater damage? Also i want to know if you think that it's better to use Axes or Swords? I just want to clean up the main page a bit so there will only be 2 variants Axe and Sword variant. only seeking a better formating of the build main page. Another request: please archive this talk page it's getting hard to load ;).Mister Muscolo 11:50 7.3.2007 (CET)

Because of Cyclone Axe, I have to go with Axes all the way. Can't beat the adrenalin/energy gain. As far as Dolyak goes, you'll only see the difference in in large groups. If you plan on only luring 3-6, then you'll want more in Axe Mastery. If you want to lure mobs, put it in Strength. --Zerris (talk) 16:03, 7 March 2007 (CST)

The besat thing about hydras is that they dont break agro because of inferno ;) BTW, i need a sheild and a zealous axe mod and a warding axe mod + a good sheild with the named stats : i pay 5k+ Mister Muscolo 07:40 9.3.2007 (CET)

Just for the sake of argument, even so prices are not to be listed on wiki, low req shield would cost 10-20k alone whit out upgrades =D then there is 5k-10k for vs fire and 10-20k or more for health. How ever they are less efficent then you might think, +10 armour at 121+ would only remove about 6 points of damage, in other words you dont need even remotly the best equipment to farm hydras. Biz 05:43, 9 March 2007 (CST)

Ok, so can anyone tell me where i can get the zealous axe? any greens that would do the trick? I have STR. exalted aegis, i got it and sskai's sword for a black dye, but i need a zealous axe... so, can any1 help me with that? Mister Muscolo 10:02 10.3.2007 (CET)


 * I have a Zealous axe mod, on a customized axe. But PM me sometime in-game (IGN Fredo Rick Douglass) and I'll be happy to salvage it off for you provided you either give it back when you're done or pay me for it. Also, may I suggest using a Collector Axe and not worrying about the warding mod. Also, any max shield should suffice, I would think. In fact you'd probably be better off with a damage -2 while enchanted or while stanced (if you use Enraged Charge and Flail). FRD 16:38, 13 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Acctualy -2 mods are rather useless for hydras since they will only remove ~1 point of damage while thy are biting you, if armour vs fire mod is used then you will get -3 to -6 reduction of damage from fire attacks witch are dominant for hydras and where lower damage does matter. Biz 07:33, 14 March 2007 (CDT)


 * no need to salvage anything 4 me i just found a zealous mod for an axe on my assassin character and Biz is right, -2 rly wont do much good...

pax vubiscumMister Muscolo

Formating
I will adjust changes to the formating, when i get some spare time from school, until then please write your comments. Pax vubiscum Mister Muscolo 12:30 17.3.07