User talk:Warrior Nation/Rt/Me Painful Echo

Testing Status
Favored[3]:


 * 1) This build works great in AB, and it also works as an awesome support during RA and 1v1 with the variant. I also use it for my PvE build.--M3atwad 18:48, 10 July 2006 (CDT)
 * 2) Pretty good damage-wise. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 20:37, 20 July 2006 (CDT)
 * 3) Its not a bad build, The only question i will ask is, why Draw spirit? --Cwingnam2000 18:34, 29 August 2006 (CDT)
 * In the 00:15, 13 July 2006 M3atwad update, Vital Weapon was replaced for no clear reason with Draw Spirit. I changed it back. I think it was vandalism.

Unfavored[1]:
 * 1) Not liking the whole Archance Echo in this build. Painful Bond lasts longer than the recharge time or just 2 seconds under the recharge time with 0 into its attribute.--Eloc jcg 21:37, 11 March 2007 (CDT)
 * 2) Needs to be updated to accomadate changes, preferebly Painful Bond's updates. I think something along the lines of Build:Rt/any Battlebox Spirit Spammer might work. -Hesus

Discussion
I think either one would be fine, Long, since you can keep Painful Bond up on a target indefinately with Echo. I took the liberty of editing the Variants section to incorporate a variant which I have successfully tested extensively for PvE melee boss farming, well before this build even popped on here.

Would a Channeling 20/20 Staff or dual 20/20 focus/wand combo not be better than a communing staff? Binding rituals do not get affected by the 20/20 mods, but hex spells. And there are only two spells in the entire build, Boon of Creation and Painful Bond. I would suggest updating the article to use a Channeling Wand/Focus or Staff instead of the communing staff. It does only slightly more damage due to the higher attribute level, but does not help otherwise. --Long 06:21, 1 September 2006 (CDT)

I move to delete the 50 posted builds that are just spinoffs of the spirit spammer build. Not that I think this is a terrible build at all, just none of them have enough changes to warrant being called anything but spirit spammer. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.210.32.106 (talk &bull; contribs) 01:10, 10 July 2006.


 * This isn't a spirit spammer, this is a real build. It isn't a knockoff build, the skills and strategy are much different. Just becuase theres one or two skills similar to the spirit spammer doesn't mean its the same thing. --M3atwad 16:47, 10 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Same, happened with MM too &mdash; Skuld  02:32, 10 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Do you mean the ? I don't see any other offensive spirit-spamming builds. This one seems a bit better than the Spirit Bomber, too, because of the the use of Arcane Echo and Ritual Lord. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 19:33, 10 July 2006 (CDT) )
 * Well... you really can't even get arcane echo until you hit Kaining Center, around level 20 or so...--Arcady 22:32, 13 July 2006 (CDT)
 * You can get Arcane Echo at Shing Jea Monastery... 146.229.139.228 13:27, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

I appreciate the positive comment. To be honest though, this build wasn't intended to be any type of spirit spammer, simply a way to nuke with a Ritualists' spirits. --M3atwad 19:54, 10 July 2006 (CDT)
 * While not intended, it is indeed a spirit spammer. Using spirit in fast-moving PvP arenas, you need to be able to spam the spirits to prevent being totally useless for large blocks of time. While I'm a big fan of Painful Bond, I'm having horrible energy issues trying to echo it regularly and keep my spirits up and attacking. I also recommend reorganizing the attribute distribution for efficiency. 11+4,10+2,10+1 would give you another point into Spawning Power as well as give you another 40 health. --Thervold 20:19, 10 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Yeah, my attribute setup is pitiful. I have under 400 hp, and it pisses me off. Energy shouldn't be much problem, since I edited the skill bar.--M3atwad 22:33, 10 July 2006 (CDT)

I like the idea of the build. It's much like an SS/Mark of Pain build. Are you sure that this can't be used for PvE? &mdash; Rapta   (talk|contribs) 22:38, 10 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I never said it couldn't, in fact, I use it as my PvE main character ATM.--M3atwad 00:03, 11 July 2006 (CDT)

Following the new attribute suggestions, I re-did the runes on my armor. Instead of using the major channeling rune to get +2, I just use a single minor channeling rune, which only has me at 11 channeling. The trade off is that I save 35 hp, putting me at 430, and lose 1 damage and 1 second on painful bond. IMO, the health is more important. I might consider dropping vital weapon now that I have more health, so I'm open to suggestions for the extra slot.--M3atwad 00:14, 11 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I haven't tried the build yet, but judging by the 30-energy cost of casting Painful Bond and Arcane Echo in addition to spamming spirits whose cost isn't entirely covered by Boon of Creation, you'll have energy management issues. I think Spirit Siphon is highly appropriate 'cos you've poured some points into channeling and you'll have a lot of spirits sitting around. At level 11 channeling you can spam Spirit Siphon and get a net gain of 3 energy from each of your spirits. If energy upkeep isn't an issue, Armor of Unfeeling will help lower damage during all the binding rituals. --Arch Cuisinart 12:54, 12 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I've yet to have a problem with energy while using this build. Boon of Creation makes casting Pain profitable, and makes casting bloodsong and shadowsong cost less than 10 combined. Anyway, I've replaced vital weapon with draw spirit. The reasoning is that you can hide in a safe area and set down all of your spirits, gather your energy, then draw them to the base you're defending or whatever.--M3atwad 19:15, 12 July 2006 (CDT)

I'm currently trying a build which is based around the idea of using spirits for spike damage. However, instead of using painful bond, I use Doom, which, while possibly doing less total damage in the long run than Painful Bond, creates a large spike of damage. Coupled with Arcane Echo, you could possibly do 360+ damage to a single opponent within a twenty second period. I don't know, I haven't tested your build yet, so I can't compare the two, but it's a possible variant. VegJed 12:07, 14 July 2006 (CDT)

In the Usage part of the post it mentions Vital Weapon... Vital Weapon isnt listed on the skill lineup. Im a bit confused as to what I may need to drop to fit that in.


 * Drop draw spirit and get Vital Weapon. since draw spirit is next to useless when you got Ritual Lord. -- [[Image:Ritualist-icon-small.png]] Cwingnam2000 20:57, 31 August 2006 (CDT)

The use of the new skill Anguish must be considered as it deal double damage on hexed foes. (biit)


 * Its great to see this build here. I've been using a variant- Bloodsong, Pain, Anguish and Shadowsong. Fantastic with Painful Bond, needless to say, and has the added pro of bypassing skills like RoF in PvP (Where it also works amazingly). I do not use Arcane Echo however, as Painful Bond recharges before it times out and well, I'm not that good at energy management. Cyanide Killer 22:00, 27 November 2006 (CST)

Attributes and runes?
In the usage section it mentions 2 sup runes, the attribute layout only shows 1 rune Mercurius Ter Maxim 11:41, 12 September 2006 (CDT))

How?
How was this vetted with only two votes and with I language in the text? --Karlos 05:47, 1 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Rapta's 1 September 2006 edit made it favored. I'm guessing he didn't notice the #1 favored vote was from the build's creator. With two favored and (now) two unfavored, this should technically have been unfavored. Too late to fix now, but all the builds are being deleted in a month so it doesn't really matter. Issa Dabir @ 83.79.143.124 16:44, 3 April 2007 (CDT)

Skill updates
The last skill update changed a few of the skills used in this build--most notably Painful Bond, down from a 20 second to a 12 second recharge. I'd like the community to reassess the build in light of these changes and see if Arcane Echo is as useful as it was before. --Ufelder 09:15, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

Just as a note, I've found the following:

To work exceedingly well. You lose the bonus for having vital weapon, but using Attuned Was Songkai with boon of creation works exceedingly well, without losing much effectiveness offensively from the loss of Ritual Lord. Most of the spirits (such as anguish), die in 43 seconds but can be recast at 45. I've found this allows painful bond to be spammed, rather than having to chose between spirits or bond as I often had to with ritual lord. (though I must admit, it still worked quite well) Cyrogenic 16:01, 3 December 2006 (CST)
 * Hmm, the only thing I'm a little worried about is Shadowsong. Blindness is always useful in keeping enemies from killing any spirits when they get too close.  However, there is an additional damage dealer, and generally Pain and Bloodsong end up lasting forever (well, not forever, but by the time they die, they're usually completely out of sight).  However, this build ends up being fairly similar to the  build, except different elite and Painful Bond getting cast less often. VegJed 03:00, 10 December 2006 (CST)
 * Valid points. I've been running the one above in RA, and it works exceedingly well (except for when they aim at me, 'course).  It is more susceptible to interrupts, but I've found it's more reliable on energy than the assassin's promise trick.  There's nothing like casting painful bond on an assassin along with assassin's promise only to have him teleport away and you have no energy management at all for 45 seconds.  In regards to pain being massively out of sight, I DO occasionally bring draw spirit, but with boon of creation up recasting pain and bloodsong is really no problem.  By the way, is there any way to control who spirits attack AFTER they've already entered aggroed mode?  Sometimes they end up hitting four different targets and I can't get them to focus.  Cheers Cyrogenic 22:12, 10 December 2006 (CST)

Arcane Echo
With the skill update, arcane echo has become rather useless, at least in arena battles. It just costs too much, and twelve seconds is not long, especially with a binding ritual in between. -- Ifer (t/c) 06:48, 8 November 2006 (CST)
 * What are you on about? AE's cost/duration weren't changed. O.o [[Image:Light of Deliverance.jpg|20px]] Finrod 02:05, 13 December 2006 (CST)
 * No, but painful bond's recharge WAS changed. And he was echoing it pre-update.Cyrogenic 11:59, 17 December 2006 (CST)
 * Y not bring anguish? double damage to hexed + painful bond. just sit and watch them die.

Attributes and Skills
Food for thought. Isis In De Nile 17:31, 18 March 2007 (CDT)