User:Mendel/Talk Archive 6

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''Copied content from the respective talk pages follows. See also block log (Auron) and user rights log (mendel)''

from User talk:Tenetke:
hi you're terrible at understanding game balance; i would recommend not commenting on it at all to save everyone else the time and agony it takes responding to poorly formulated and inadequately supported arguments. have a nice day :) - Auron 10:24, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * If we had a |"Don't be a dick" policy, I'd ban you right now. -- ◄mendel► 12:37, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You should look into a "don't be stupid" policy first, those are leagues better in the long run. - Auron 13:17, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

from User talk:Auron of Neon:
GW:NPA

Please refrain from personal attacks such as on Tenetke's talk; you know GW:NPA and you will be banned next time. -- ◄mendel► 12:41, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Tbh, fuck you. He's a stupid shit, and instead of containing his stupidity to userspace, he tries to spread it on talk pages. My post was a request to get him to stop, since stupidity without limits is a very bad thing. You can use your role as sysop to defend stupidity and let it flourish or you can use it to raise the bar - up to you. But don't pretend like you're doing the wiki a favor by banning me when I'm just playing the role of captain obvious. - Auron 13:16, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You know, posting he's a stupid shit as reply to that warning would quite probably be a violation of your proposed "don't be stupid" policy as well, and the only thing that's holding me back from blocking right now is that I want a second opinion. -- ◄mendel► 15:12, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Second opinion. Whether or not the person you're attacking actually is stupid is not the issue here, Auron, though I'm fairly sure you already know that.  &not; Wizårdbõÿ777  ( talk ) 15:36, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

You have been blocked for three days for the aforementioned reason. -- ◄mendel► 15:42, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

You have been unblocked because I do not think the original offense merited a block. Response here is borderline but I claim provocation/slippery slopeism.

That being said, you know this isn't GWW. Reality doesn't apply here so people will call you out for such stuff. (T/C) 06:44, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Discussion
I think some people want to change it to GW:NPAUTDI (No personal attacks, unless they deserve it) :P Silver Sunlight (T/C) 16:34, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood. &mdash; Article 1 of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR)
 * Don't shoot people unless they deserve it. -- ◄mendel► 21:39, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Postscriptum: do try and write Game balance. -- ◄mendel► 21:40, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

I have reverted your block. Saying someone fails at understanding game balance is not a personal attack. It falls under "Don't be a dick", perhaps, but certainly not GW:NPA in a blockworthy fashion. Also, real life laws do not apply here, and we all know the U.N. is garbage when it comes to practical matters anyway. (T/C) 06:35, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd let it pass if it was a simple statement made in the course of a discussion. This was a well-crafted paragraph posted out of context on the user's talkpage. It addressed a single user, it contained opinion, not fact, the opinion is strongly negative, it made statements about the adressee, not about the poster, it it went quite further than just stating that he doesn't understand game balance, and I am quite sure that most people who read such a statement on their userpage would be offended by it. It not only feels like a personal attack, I think by the criteria listed, you can't deny it is one, and I am not the only one who sees it that way.
 * Is this the style of discussion you want to condone on this wiki? Please reconsider.
 * For me (and actually, for the German constitution as well), "dignity" is one of the unalienable human rights. In fact, our constitution says that no matter what a human (any human on earth) does, he does have dignity, and that means that everybody deserves respect. It applies everywhere. Please understand that I am not lawyering; my intent in quoting that is to show that such a policy, if it existed, would violate some fundamental norms of civilized behaviour.
 * Dignity has not always been understood to be such a fundamental right; that's why most of the older bills of right don't have it. But the present German constitution (and, I assume, the UDHR as well) were written in the light of the Nazi regime, which justified incredible atrocities against the Jews with "they deserved it" (by alledgedly plotting Germany's downfall) and communists, who'd been portrayed as subhuman by German propaganda. It means that most arguments that go "we treat you worse than everybody else because you deserve it" is ill-founded.
 * Of course specific behavour can net you specific consequences; that is what law is all about. But what you're implying in unblocking Auron is that if you post an opinion on a wiki talk page, you can be flamed without consequences, and you have no way to know before you post that this will happen to you. I can't see how we can attract decent people to this wiki with policy like this.
 * Auron posts once in a blue moon these days and probably won't even feel the three days. Nevertheless, you have chosen to unblock Auron without discussing this with me first, although most other wiki admins (and many users both new and old) have been online, probably noticed that before you did, and didn't comment on it (you may have received comments in private, I don't know). Overruling me this way means I hand in my badge and take a long wikibreak if you ever do this again. Yes, I am that pissed. -- ◄mendel► 10:22, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Then let me save you the trouble. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 10:55, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Entropy, you are biased when it comes to Auron. Just an observation. --Macros 11:03, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Administrators can counteract other administrators, if they feel it prudent. An erroneous ban can be lifted. An erroneous delete can be restored. Typically, only a message on the talk page explaining the reason why such a countermeasure is prudent is expected in such a case. The "reverted" administrator is expected to oblige the revert, and should not reinstitute their action without discussing it with the "reverting" administrator.


 * Again, though this may seem a fairly chaotic governing system, it works extremely well in context of the wiki. An appointment to administrator is not something done lightly. The administrators are a cohesive team, and the mutual respect they share for another, even when disagreeing, is second to only the respect and care they have for the GuildWiki itself.


 * So I heard it's impossible to know Auron without being biased one way or the other. That is all. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 11:10, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but immediately quoting the admin policy seems like a cop-out response and just a way of saying "I have more power than you so I can disregard your arguments." While this may be true, it only serves to piss people off and drive away this wiki's already small userbase. --Macros 11:16, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It is better than writing something scathing and inappropriate about an obvious disconnect with reality, don't you think? (Oops.) The admin policy applies equally to all administrators, anyway - it has nothing to do with me being a bureaucrat. As to driving away users: If you're going to rage over something as petty as this, then by all means, go. Because I can assure you I would do the same thing given another chance. I find it highly amusing that things have come to such a state that by exercising the powers granted by both the letter and spirit of our admin policy, in a perfectly ordinary manner, I can cause people to quit the wiki. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 11:32, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to rage, however, I am going to bed after I post this, so don't expect a reply from me for a while. I just seem to recall some sort of guideline that said admins shouldn't exercise their powers in a dispute they are personally involved with. Karlos got a talking to for that several times, I believe. And, Entropy, I think you are biased when it comes to disputes that involve Auron. This is the basis of my reasoning. Maybe that guideline no longer applies. Maybe it should. --Macros 11:54, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't have blocked auron for two reasons. One, he was right, which is pretty important to me when it comes to fucking retards discussing balance. Two, he very rarely posts so it actually serves np purpose. Since he's got two previous blocks that I remember for NPA, 3 days would actually seem too low if you were going to block. ZZZZZZZZZ. Lord of all tyria 12:19, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * When it comes to 'biased' aren't all admins 'biased' when it is about other admins/'noticable' users ? IMHO, shouting 'biased' isn't doing that much good in most of the admin discussions. Mendel & Entropy, please, take a step back, count to ten. Is this really worth fighting for. Both of you have my respect, I will not state who is wrong or right about this and I think it is a shame that it comes to this. Mendel, you unblocked without informing other admins. Entropy has problems not being consulted about it. So, someone is agitated, just say 'I'm sorry, next time I think about it before doing such action' and discuss the matter the way it should be done in the first place. NOT by making this discussion bigger then it deserves to be -- [[Image:merty_sign.gif]]-- ( talk ) 12:28, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Mendel, you unblocked without informing other admins. Huh? You got something wrong there. -- ◄mendel► 12:43, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It is true that generally, admins ought to avoid dealing with situations where they are personally involved, because as much as we try it's very hard to remove all traces of personal bias from affecting the decision. However, if you are going to apply that logic to me, then I'll counter by saying Mendel is biased in the opposite direction. Mendel is free to counter this by saying he acknowledged the bias and went through with the action regardless after a thorough examination of the facts; and that leaves me free to say that I did the same. (Unlike game balance and power creep, bias counters bias.)
 * I may or may not be putting words in your mouth/abusing hyperbole with the following statement: If I am so biased that every decision I make with regards to Auron is bound to be in his defense, why isn't he a bureaucrat or sysop anymore? What does that say about condoning such-and-such style of discussion?
 * @Merty...We try, we really do, not to let such rank/visibility differences influence our judgments, but we're not perfect. I also appreciate your concern in this matter, but unfortunately, a storm like this was almost inevitable to break out eventually. By which I mean to say, this is a conflict much deeper than you can understand. So if it seems like it is completely blown out of proportion, you are correct - there are other underlying issues. And while I am sorry that it creates wikidrama to manifest in this way, I do not feel sorry for my actions. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 12:48, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Mendel is free to counter this: my actual counter is that I did ask for a second opinion, which I received. I also think Merty can understand the deeper conflict, and if he does not, he is free to ask, and I will answer as best I can. -- ◄mendel► 13:00, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) "As to driving away users: If you're going to rage over something as petty as this, then by all means, go."

I'm not the one who raged; I didn't quit the wiki over the ban revert, precisely because there was the chance I'd not understood something well enough, and pointing out that the policy is "revert ban, then discuss" makes me reconsider. Did I get a chance to reconsider? Basically, I feel demoted because of a single post I wrote that expressed a feeling you didn't like; it wasn't even a wiki action that was involved.

You get a special irony bonus because you unbanned Auron because you think he has right to say to Tenetke "I am pissed at your stupidity", but you demote me over saying "I am pissed at your admin action".

I took / am still taking the wikibreak over what I think is an unfair demotion, because I know standing up for yourself in that state of mind is not a good idea. I seem to think that posting these paragraphs is a good idea; partially because I think having others stand up for me without taking a stand myself is not something I like to do. (Thank you!)

We'll see how that goes. A slightly different version was also mailed to Entropy. -- ◄mendel► 12:43, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


 * "Overruling me this way means I hand in my badge and take a long wikibreak if you ever do this again."
 * Unless I'm highly deficient in clue today, you were threatening to resign if I ever countered you on an administrative action again. Knowing that this was an all-but-complete certainty, I saved the drama by cutting to the chase. Was I wrong in that? (You of all people I would expect to know the policies best, even better than myself; since you actually bothered to read them, even before being promoted... and you're one of the last people I would expect to retract[?] a prior statement because you did not thoroughly think it through first.)
 * I unbanned Auron because I do not believe he breached NPA or otherwise performed a bannable offense. Your threatening to ban him for it quite possibly provoked him to further hostilities, in addition to it being on his talkpage (semantics difference, but there is one), and thus I still refrain from considering ban-worthy at that point. A warning I would have given, most likely.
 * If I tell someone that their logic is terrible, that is not a personal attack. That is all. It is certainly not a bannable offense by any stretch of the policy. What I take offense with is not the block in and of itself (since, after all, admin discretion = can ban anyone at any time for anything); but rather that you would categorize it as an NPA. "asshattery", "being a dick", etc. would have been much more acceptable. Why do I consider this a problem? Because if the block stands, it expands the scope of NPA to cover anything which could be construed as a personal attack; it puts in a slippery slope notion that "one must be courteous and nice in discussion" or be subject to administrative action.
 * Slight digression - my summary for the unblock is another (smaller) issue, alluded to by Loat above - the block really doesn't solve any problems. Auron posts here very rarely, and thus a block of any appreciable length would have to be for weeks/months. (Which would also be way out of proportion for an NPA; not to mention prior violations are like a year+ old.) Remember the discussion about "block doctrine"? A block is a tool which is to be used preventatively, not punitively. In this case, it seems very clear to me that Auron wasn't on an NPA spree or any crap like that, and thus the block is meaningless; the point would have been to "stop" him, but he did that by himself, and would have done so regardless of the block in any case. You also know as well as I that a simple block won't make him change his discussion style, so "pre-emptive prevention" is also out of the question. Therefore, the block becomes punitive, to serve the interest of..."justice", I suppose... "The user broke policy and so he should be banned." And that is contrary to how the law works on this wiki. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 13:33, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I forgot that you're on the preventative side of the doctrine now; when I look back on the thread on the admin noticeboard I only see that you're like "it depends". Anyway, Auron had attacked a user (10:24), got warned (12:41), insulted the same user again and started insulting me (13:16), so I blocked him (15:41) to prevent further abuse. (I would've blocked sooner, but I waited for a second opinion because of suspected bias on my part.) You unblocked 15 hours later.
 * "a simple block won't make him change his discussion style": look back on what happened around the time of his first, failed RfA; I think it was about that time he got blocked, and he was on better behaviour up to the other RfA at least. I couldn't tell that he would stop by himself, but you know him better, so I believe you in that respect, and the evidence is in your favor. For long block lengths, there is no other way than to start short and work up, and like you, I disregarded the old blocks.
 * It's not about being courteous and nice in discussion; there was no discussion as there was no logical reasoning of any kind in Auron's post; it's about going to the talkpage of an editor that you don't agree with (heck, that probably the majority of readers doesn't agree with) and telling them to stop posting. You like to say the wiki's not about majorities, the wiki is about arguments and reason; that means we protect minorities even if we think they're wrong because if we don't, the minorities who are right stop posting. It's an attempt to intimidate and bully an editor he didn't agree with, and if GW:NPA doesn't cover that, it bloody well should. -- ◄mendel► 21:21, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Postscriptum: About the warning: I seem to recall that users are usually warned on their talkpages; I tried to be non-aggressive, yet draw a firm line. If you think I worded that badly, please explain. Should I have omitted "and you will be banned next time" and just have followed through with the ban when it happened again?
 * At the time I wrote my reply on Tenetke's page, I still thought (like you do) that it was just a case of "asshattery", but rethinking it and examining the structure and context of Auron's post made me decide it was a personal attack indeed (see details above, "I'd let it pass..."). -- ◄mendel► 21:36, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

(EC) While I don't completely disagree with what Auron posted on Tenetke's talk, I feel that he was unnecessarily rude and condescending which, at this point, are basically Auron trademarks. Don't get me wrong, I like and respect Auron, but he doesn't seem to understand the difference between being "blunt" and just outright being a jackass (because there is indeed a difference). Furthermore, his response to mendel, while perhaps somewhat provoked, was way out of line.

One of my largest concerns in this issue is that Auron's attitude toward Tenetke (ur bad, gtfo *trolls off wiki*) is exactly the attitude that has turned PvX into the cesspit of trolling and retardedness it is today. Letting this slide is a step in a direction I'm not sure you want GuildWiki to take. Even if banning Auron doesn't solve any of the problems with Auron (which I'm fully aware it won't), it sends a message to other would-be trolls that we don't appreciate that kind of behavior.  &not; Wizårdbõÿ777  ( talk ) 13:35, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd like to reiterate that blocks aren't meant to be punitive. By extention, that means you do not use them to "send a message". (before anyone digs through the logs on here or some other wiki to find a counterexample, I say this: those sysops were doin it wrong, including me.) I also find the argument somewhat fallacious, Wizard, that "if we let Auron go free, that will make it seem okay to other would-be trolls". This is common argument used in defense of punitive bans being a good thing - "it helps to deter vandals". But it is also unproven and stems from reaction out of fear for what may happen. It is the same line of thought which leads one to protect various obscure-but-widely-used templates on the wiki because a clever vandal *might* decide to mess with them. That was a wrong thing to do. Situations are to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis; whenever a vandal/new user/etc. points to a past precedent and says "But look what you did there, I did the same thing, so I should be treated the same!" that is not a valid argument because of what we call discretion. (Not to mention that extenuating circumstances change over time.) Discretion defies logic, but it is the way we run things here. It is contrary to real life, because in real life, claiming discretion gets you into trouble very quickly; Wikis just don't operate like real life. The spirit of the law trumps the letter, and common practice/consensus trumps both... not so in real life. On wikis, we take intent into consideration, and whether or not the actual "victim" was "harmed"... etc etc.
 * Tl;dr: would-be trolls aren't Auron, and they will be treated individually regardless of the outcome of this decision. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 13:58, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Out of respect for Auron, I would ban him too for that comment. I know him well enough (online); I respect his views, I understand his methods, but even by his standards, I think his last comment was over the line.
 * I respect Auron enough to not "go easy on him" because I know him. If I was out of line, I would want to be told this, not have it slide because someone knew I didn't mean it or some crap like that.
 * "intent", victim", "harmed"... to be entirely fair on that point, unless Tenetke told me himself that he/she didn't take it seriously, I would have to assume that the "victim" was indeed "harmed" (I'm retaining quote-marks because by internet standards, "intent", "victim", and "harmed" all have a slightly diluted meaning).
 * This does boil down to a good point; discretion. But once again, handling a situation with kid gloves because of the subject of it isn't fair to either party involved. And to further that point, Auron's limited activity is also a bad reason to go easy on this; should we go right ahead and un-ban most vandal accounts now? I'm quite positive the majority of them don't use this wiki anymore. I know that is an extreme example, but try to understand my point.
 * Consider this Mendel's third opinion. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> .cнаt^  18:46, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

related comments
1 comment moved from below:

I didn't want to become involved, but I've followed this argument. There's most likely more to it that seen here, as I think Entropy said, but personally, I believe the ban was just. Stating someone is an idiot on that user's talkpage, completely out of context IS imho a personal attack, even though his choice of words made it seem much less worse than it actually was. Even when Mendel gave him a warning he simply continued to insult Tenetke, making it even worse than it already was. [..] (btw, entropy, this is not critisism on your acts, but merely my observations and opinion. I won't say that any of you acted wrong, because I don't think I have seen the entire argument, only the part about auron insulting Tenetke).--El_Nazgir 08:47, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

When are we going to get a newsletter for this stuff? Sorry to see that you were demoted, man. For the record, I think you were in the right. &mdash; Powersurge360  19:27, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Apology to Entropy
Concerning the footnote of this edit, I was completely in the wrong; I had no right to be angry about the way you handled the unblocking, since you were following established GuildWiki policy; and it was unprofessional of me to bring my anger to the wiki in this way. It will not happen again. -- ◄mendel► 19:51, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Opinion please Mendel
How're we doing? Be honest. -->Suicidal Tendencie 23:26, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Some good ideas, some not so good. Get on irc if you want details. -- ◄mendel► 23:36, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * So anyway, who can't tell "men" from "man?" :P RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 04:59, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Pan likes to address people by syllables of their name - and mine isn't mandel. ;-) -- ◄mendel► 10:22, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I... can't... I followed a link from someone's page and it wouldn't let me, saying it had expired... it was a while ago. Sorry. -->Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 10:10, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? o.O -- ◄mendel► 10:22, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You forget I'm a noob... irc means nothing to me tbh (e.g. no clue how to get it... the vaguest of ideas as to what it is) Like MSN? -->Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 10:31, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Indenting does matter - it looked as if you replied to Rose. :-P Irc works like MSN, only the other way around: with MSN, you chat with single users first, and invite them if you want a group chat. With irc, you generally join the group, and can then chat with individual users (although it can be used like an instant messenger, and indeed many open-source messengers can connect to irc). But yeah, the link for browser-based irc on our page is not working (but hopefully will again in February).
 * Go to http://www.mibbit.com/chat/, wait for the page to load completely, where it says IRC: Mibbit webirc, change that to Gamesurge Webirc, edit the nick if you like, and do change the channel from #mibbit to #gwiki. Click Go and wait. Type "Hello" in the box at the bottom and wait (could be 15 minutes before somebody notices (sometimes it takes hours), but everbody in the list on the right will see what you wrote eventually, unless they disconnect first). So just keep the chat window open and check back from time to time. Using a dedicated irc program (or even the Chatzilla firefox plugin) is better than mibbit, so you ought to consider installing that if you intend to use irc regularly. -- ◄mendel► 10:55, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Wtf are you doing? >.> (T/C) 06:35, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Triggering one of the biggest spamstorms in recent wiki history, apparently (and inadvertantly). I'm extremely proud that the participant list reads like a "wiki who-is-who". -- ◄mendel► 10:22, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * SPAMSPAMSPAMSPAM oh, sorry... everyone was doing it, I just wanted to be popular! -->Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 10:31, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * So if I understand correctly, this is an open invitation to vandalize your page any way I see fit? [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 10:55, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Well he has been everything from a kitten to a baby eater, so go ahead :P Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|18px]] (T/C) 14:00, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Hehehe... the more kinky it is, the longer it will stay up... I'm mature... -->Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 14:41, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Wait... Mendel... can we do ANYTHING? -->Suicidal Tendencie 14:45, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Dude, liek, we needz you here.... I needz you. plz don't leave :-( Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 17:02, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Arnout.. who's leaving? -->Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 17:46, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 * He probably thought the delete tag was legitimate. It's okay Arnout, mendel's not going anywhere. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 17:47, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Seriously... this is unjust. My op. Of no importance. Unjust. --Alc ^^  18:42, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Arnout, Alc, everybody, I thank you for your support. Don't be sad. Go have some fun vandalizing my userpage, the opportunity won't last forever. -- ◄mendel► 00:33, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * A part of the following comment was moved up a section. ◄mendel► 
 * And another thing, I believe vandalising someones userpage, even when he/she asked for it, very, very rude towards that person, even if he/she can just make a rollback or copy the original content back on it. --[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir 08:47, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * El Nazgir, I've enjoyed most if not all of these vandalisms, and don't think they've been rude at all much. :-) -- ◄El Mend► 08:59, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I still feel it's inappropriet. If you want a childish page, make a sandbox and screw over that page.--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir 14:40, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It's Mendel's userpage - why can't he do with it what he wants, including letting people vandalize the hell out of it? Jink  16:23, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * He can do with it whatever he wants, including letting other users vandalise it. I just find it childish of the users that actually do.--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir 16:32, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It builds camaraderie. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 16:45, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh please. Mendel stop this madness. This is YOUR property on wikia, and you're letting it be abused? /sigh I would never fyi.--Alc ^^  19:29, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm planning on archiving (= moving) the page on Monday morning, then it's back to normal. In a way, it's a challenge of your confidence: if you see me as untouchable wikigod, you're going to be uncomfortable doing this; if you're confident enough to consider yourself my equal and to come up with an edit that stands with the others before you, you're going to like it. And it does raise the bar for intelligently done vandalism: we can see how much our common vandals suck by comparison! -- ◄mendel► 23:57, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Mendel's evil plan
I can see where this vandalism is going. It's like a trap. Once it's over you will go through the history and block us all for vandalism! Silver Sunlight (T/C) 02:00, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Except that he can't anymore! Ohhh so mean [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 02:01, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Everybody believes now that the page is protected, though, so no more vandalism... ;-P -- ◄mendel► 08:27, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * enoguh vandal for you? Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 10:24, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Some kinda reverse psychology at work?--Alc ^^  11:55, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I can't keep up with the politics >_< Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|18px]] (T/C) 14:04, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Neither can I. But still, I try. -- ◄mendel► 14:10, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Politics? What did I say? I meant reverse psychology as in: saying/sticking to what might happen and it will never happen. I.e. considering what could happen as something that will nevr happen (optimism :D )--Alc ^^  17:35, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I was referring to the fact that I didn't know about Mendel's demotion ;) Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|18px]] (T/C) 17:38, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeh... sad isn't it? All that work gone to waste. Mendel, don't give up man. You're still a good man. Vandals got nothin on you. --Alc ^^  17:40, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I do. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 19:13, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * what?--<font face="Book Antiqua" color="Green">Alc <font face="Times New Roman" color="#004444" size="0,5">^^  19:28, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * He's got Mendel's durrdy bidness on film, obviously. &mdash; Powersurge360  19:30, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * LOL. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 19:57, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks like Surge is pissed. Smoke a peace pipe.--<font face="Book Antiqua" color="Green">Alc <font face="Times New Roman" color="#004444" size="0,5">^^  20:06, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Congratulations
You win back your badge, and the wiki too. I have also given you a promotion because you are the only person left able to fulfill the bureaucrat position actively, and a Wiki without a bureaucrat is never a good thing.

Please remember to update the Administrator information as necessary. Thanks. (T/C) 03:26, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I am not happy about this outcome. It feels like I lost a friend. You still owe me the discussion about what a wiki is that we were always going to get around to having. You saddle me with a lot of work, and I've got to go find some shoulders I can delegate the burden on. When I wake up again, that is. -- ◄mendel► 04:06, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I just handed the wiki to you. I owe you nothing. I think you will find, though, that you can get away with doing less work now than before/it's not as bad as you think, so I'd hesitate before o'erhastily "delegating". [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:35, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Congratulations!! &mdash; Balistic
 * Mendel's plan to take over wikia is one step closer... ...um... I mean... Congrats! -- Shadowphoenix  05:14, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Shadowphoenix, that is mean. Mendel, I don't think this is the outcome any1 of us would have wanted. I'll be there if you need me. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 10:40, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not being mean, I am joking... after all I am the one that has wanted him to be a bcrat for a while. -- Shadowphoenix  19:10, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I go away for a bit to study anatomy and...
What happened? Apparently I made a bunch of people mad, and you got demoted and... Anyway I emailed you. I am terribly sorry for causing all of this stuff. I posted to felix also, I wish now I had kept my opinions to myself. You are one of the nicest people I have known, on this wiki or off, and I hate the idea that I caused trouble for you. I hope you write me back or let me know in some way that I can contact you. I think after seeing the trouble that a silly opinion has caused I am done here. If you didn't get my email just leave a message for me here. I will continue checking it for awhile, and I hope you are doing well. Tenetke MekkoMy Talk Page 05:55, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Although you were involved, Auron caused this, in more ways than one. Blocking Auron was seen as a challenge by the alpha wolf, who, concerned for the welfare of the pack, yielded his position to me. I seem to be the new alpha.
 * Part of the issue is my stance that I believe silly opinions have a right to be on talkpages (we still don't want them in articles). I don't know if this is common consensus, but I guess we're going to find out, and if it is, please stay with us: you're a valuable contributor in more ways than one. I've caused trouble with silly opinions more than once, and look at me now! ;-) -- ◄mendel► 10:22, 26 January 2009 (UTC) & 11:31, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The issue wasn't whether what Auron wrote was appropriate or not; it wasn't; the issue isn't even whether it merited a block or not (it didn't, I warned him); the issue is whether his reply to me after the warning did warrant the block (or a further warning), and whether my warning was phrased well. -- ◄mendel► 11:31, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

also, lolwUt
I can't believe you kept that quote. How cool Thank you for that. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 13:19, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * :) You're welcome. -- ◄mendel► 13:46, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

"Completely unrelated to everything above" apology
You PM'ed me several times yesterday (iirc) while I was in-game; however I was completely idle and so my not responding had nothing to do with ignoring you or not wanting to talk. I often open GW, play a bit, and then leave it open while I go do other things such as check my watchlist or play other games, eat dinner, etc. Such was the case yesterday, and you were not the only one who was "snubbed". I never use the "status" thing, either, which I have been considering doing because it helps avoid uncomfortable situations like this. So I apologize if I gave the appearance of being rude. (T/C) 20:48, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Hey, I do that all the time too. Go on GW, think of something to do on the wiki, start doing stuff and not think about gw untill I notice "Oh, hey yeah, GW is still open". And I hate the status stuff too.--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]<font color="Green">El_Nazgir 21:07, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * That's not a problem, however, I'd love to get some sort of response to my email about Thursday. And chat with you again eventually. :) -- ◄mendel► 21:13, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Would you rather I not post here, and e-mail to you directly, in that case? Since this is largely a personal issue, but at the same time I am sure the wiki community is also interested. (plus you have posted more or less the same text here as you sent me) [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 01:51, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm a transparent person who can take criticism in public. Up to you. -- ◄mendel► 04:01, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Administrator Information poll
What describes me better? M.mendel (mendel for short) posts walls of text on all topics when asked, including technical issues. M.mendel (mendel for short) may be willing to post walls of text on all topics when asked, including technical issues.

I don't really get the difference. The first is you "do if asked", the seconds you "may do if asked". So the seconds just means that you don't always do it, right?--<font color="Green">El_Nazgir 21:33, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Scrolling up the page, I see non-wall text sequences that end in mendel's signature. Therefore, option two is more accurate. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  22:31, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * And just where is the option for pie? I think that by not including pie you have done yourself a great disservice. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke MekkoMy Talk Page 23:31, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Use HTML comments ftw. -- &pi; 23:57, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you, I seem to be always saying that to you. Nm, I am an idiot I see pie now. lol [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke MekkoMy Talk Page 00:01, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I only see pi. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 00:03, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I was joking about pie being in the pole, so he did pi, play on words. Of course the idiot I am only saw TT the first time. Then I was like, wait that could be pi. Then I went back and added the part about seeing pie. Pi and pie, just good fun. Sometimes I sound like a raving maniac. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke MekkoMy Talk Page 00:13, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Random comment: admin info is one of the pages I'd especially hope to remain srs bsns. So if that's a serious description you are putting down, people are going to start expecting more WoT's from you, as that's your listed responsibility. (It also makes no sense in relation to bcrat duties, though.) I would suggest that you relegate such text to the "Expectations" section, which seems more appropriate, or perhaps "Preferred duties". (T/C) 00:31, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * So if I'm srs bsns what I need to write is "M.mendel (mendel for short) has no idea what being a Bcrat entails, but watch him as he is about to find out." I thought it does mean writing lengthy well-founded opinions if necessary, so the WoT thing seemed appropriate. -- ◄mendel► 01:03, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, you can see the entries for other people which have been put there in the past for examples... Admitting that you are new to the position and you are unsure of your duties is also a +1 for transparancy. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 01:08, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * My main thrust was that as an "official" page, it ought to be as helpful and informative as possible, as seen through the eyes of the provervial anon/wiki newbie who comes to the page. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 01:51, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * For the record, I didn't write the main section about myself, and I kinda disagree it being there (none of those are what I consider as Bcrat-related), but I don't know what to replace it with. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 01:59, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You could replace it with something about Lyssa and beauty. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 02:04, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Well initially I had left it at "PanSola..." but you never went and filled it in, so I felt I had to write something. :\ [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:50, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I had an idea. You could write something about how you often deal with Wikia-related things, such as the Mendel: namespace. (T/C) 02:53, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

idea for new feature
The Internet decided to be gay and eat my post, so I'll just write a shorter version. I had an idea for a new Wikia/MediaWiki feature. It would be a checkbox in preferences, "Automatically sign my comments for me". When checked, any time a user forgets to put four tildes for a Talk:, User talk:, etc. namespace post, it is appended to the end of their post. Potential problems are of course getting the software able to detect what is a comment and what is just an edit for spelling etc.

Does this sound at all remotely feasible? (T/C) 07:34, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * If you do it on the server, MediaWiki needs to do a diff on every edit, which means extra processing power; and sometimes the diff fails to match edits up properly (I'm sure you've seen those), so it could add a signature erroneously. It'd also be hard for interposed comments. Wikia could add some more bloat to their Javascript though, and if somebody saves an edit in a talkspace that doesn't have the ~ on it, it could pop up a "You forgot to sign! [Save anyway] [Sign at the bottom, then save] [Edit]". How obnoxious would it be? Should we ask someone who knows javascript to make us a prototype for our common.js ? -- ◄mendel► 12:00, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Well that is an idea. The main problem there, of course, would be that half the people who don't sign, simply are forgetful; the other half, don't care. So it would be helpful to some, obnoxious to others. That's why I liked the idea of making it automatic, to make it less obnoxious. It ultimately comes down to who is going to take the brunt of the work for the thing: MediaWiki (with server speed or whatever) or the users themselves. Perhaps the feature should be "Remind me if I forget to sign" instead. ;)
 * I always hate burdening the Doctor with more work (or I feel guilty about it, at any rate), but yeah we could ask him at least if it is a feasible thing, and then after that it would be up to the "engineer's drive" to see what happens. :p [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 02:53, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Multiple subjects, all in one (sorry)
Hi there, Mendel!

1) I'd like to thank you for keeping my message on your page ("Testimonials"), I appreciate the gesture.

2) About a few things above. I had promised myself that I wouldn't post about it, but... meh [I blame GW:YAV :-)]. As usual, I am forced to agree with you. Not only did Auron insult another user, he also said that it was a waste of people's time to reply to him, as he was so stupid. Frankly, if it was my call (perhaps that it's not is a good thing) I would block him, with no intention of lifting it.

What he said was unacceptable, and Entropy, seemingly ignoring her position on the site, replied with a "maybe bad enough for a warning" kind of indifference, which I also find disgusting. I agree with Macros, that she is feeling a certain amount of bias (well, I hope, if she agrees with those kind of messages 100% of the time, God help us all).

I've often looked at things, even before registering, and she's someone I've often thought of. When joking and trying to befriend her on her talk page, I couldn't help but feel slightly shafted (for want of a better term) when she (to me) replied in a rather condescending tone, telling me that external links always look different (which I had merely forgotten when posting.) I fully accept I am more than likely being over sensitive here, but feel that I should post it regardless.

I find that she likes to be friends with people and preach to us of the ideal, how she wants to go out doing things our way. I find that she doesn't bother - when it suits her, she does things her way. I looked at your user rights log (I apologize if you wish I had not), and was exceptionally bemused when I saw "because I can".

In aspects of my life, I like to expect / dream of a high standard. Felix told me the main idea of Wiki is that everyone will work to the benefit of the site, and that we have to settle for what we can get when this does not occur. Frankly I know nobody will ever get univseral backing, but I disagree with her holding the position that she posseses. I thought that Entropy, who speaks of the community with such reverance, who always appears to hold the site with such importance, would be furious at what Auron posted. She didn't really seem to be able to care, and then said that she's happy for all sensitive users to leave for good.

I do not want you to reply to this. I daresay, you've had enough of all of this for a while. All I wanted to achieve here was to make sure that you realize, that you too, will always have your supporters. (Frankly between you and Entropy, I know who I'd hand the top job.)

Once again, thank you for always being impartial to the best of your ability, for being a pleasant person, and for doing your best for the site, or more importantly, the community. -->Suicidal Tendencie 17:01, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

unwanted response section

 * Your post is full of factual errors, but if you don't care for me then I won't bother to explain them. I'd just like to let you know the feeling is mutual. ;) [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 02:53, 28 January 2009 (UTC)


 * "You're wrong, but I don't tell you why, and btw, I don't like you." No wonder he feels "slightly shafted". I've been pondering about a reply myself (despite having been told not to). Suicidal has compiled a very thoughtful explanation of his (and likely many others') support for me. There are some connections (including your use of sarcasm) that are missing in the picture, and because I see them and he does not (and how I wish I was able to quickly explain them), I see you in a different light than he. That is why I'd asked you on your talk for an old-fashioned thought-out WoT-style explanation; these take time (and you don't have much these days) so I've not expected it quickly, but they've always succeeded in making your position transparent to most if not all wiki editors and founded the support you enjoy. I think Suicidal's careful post here gives an excellent overview of the issues you'd need to address if you want people to cease misunderstanding you. But then maybe you're no longer active because you're bored of writing these kinds of explanations and rather interpose short, snappy and almost entirely unconstructive comments. Yes, that's a friendly taunt.  -- ◄mendel► 04:39, 28 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't really give two pesos for this site anymore, and frankly I could care less if people misunderstand me. Reputation? Screw that. This was never about the reputation. To be honest with you I'm not feeling any motivation whatsoever to write any more "explanations" of anything. It's not like anyone* reads/understands them or cares. (*majority of people) You also might have missed the notice on my talkpage which explicitly states I have no reason to post constructively here anymore. Anything which I do from here on out is by my choice and my choice alone. I have no more obligations; no administrative responsibilities; nothing behooving me to be nice, friendly, or helpful. This wiki is my sandbox, to be used solely for my fun and entertainment. And you know what the best part is? I still get to keep all of my administrative powers, so on top of everything I can continue to be a Tin-Plated Dictator with Delutions of Godhood (TPDwDoG).
 * By the way, I've never let anything get in the way of me shafting people before, if I felt they truly deserved it. (Or maybe you haven't looked hard enough.) [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:19, 28 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Well... there goes the Pandora's Box... If you believe this wiki to be your Sandbox, you have no business here whatsoever.  We are not "privileged" to have anyone with that kind of attitude.  So, if you have nothing useful to contribute anymore, which sounds like your mindset at the moment, then just leave and don't look back, find a new toy.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 06:20, 28 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for giving your honest opinion, Rose. The fact that I choose to dismiss your advice in no way reflects upon how I think of you personally. <3 The only way you'll ever rid me of this site is to ban me and remove my bureaucrat flag, and we both know that will never happen. Because when it does, it means GuildWiki is officially dead. :) [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 06:24, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
 * (By the way, this is basically copied verbatim from my User:Entropy and expanded upon a bit; which either tells me you didn't read that, or that you see this as somehow different. Regardless of which the case is, I am perplexed. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 06:42, 28 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't think anything on the internet would die from one person leaving. Just look at FOSS. Perfect example, people leave, but it will never die. I mean eventually years down the road who knows, but it won't happen from one person. It will happen because of an outside event, like say GW2 launching and being around for a few years. I have tried to keep an open mind about Entropy, I have read some things that I didn't understand, but I have always tried to be open. Still when someone writes this
 * "I have no more obligations; no administrative responsibilities; nothing behooving me to be nice, friendly, or helpful. This wiki is my sandbox, to be used solely for my fun and entertainment. And you know what the best part is? I still get to keep all of my administrative powers,"
 * I just don't understand. Maybe I am taking it wrong, I honestly don't know you well enough to judge. I doubt you would be disruptive, but again I don't know you well enough to judge that. I think that perhaps you are being a little more than rude though. What you have said above really puts down on everyone who contributes here. I haven't given really anything to this wiki, but that is offensive. What I have contributed to this wiki is for everyone, not just you. I think you should read the licensing agreement again. Perhaps I need to set an attribution rule from now on. Not sure how that works here but I know how it works in software. Still to my knowledge I have released my edits under the creative commons license, and I don't see where that license says that I release anything to the ownership of User:Entropy. Maybe, and I hope, I have misunderstood. Maybe you were just caught up in the moment, who knows. I do hope I am wrong. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke MekkoMy Talk Page 06:40, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe the problem lies in that I was using a figure of speech, and you interpreted that as a literal statement of fact. That is my usual style of discussion and I apologize if I have confused you. :( This has nothing to do with the licensing terms...What I meant, in essence, is that I will no longer be editing the wiki out of some sense of "responsbility" or "obligation" to the community or the game; I do it as a hobby, for fun, for amusement. That is how things ought to have been from the start; it's very bad to take an action not because you wish to, but because you feel forced or compelled to. Yet, for almost three years now, that's exactly what I have done; I have been contributing to this site because I felt I owed something back to the Guild Wars community. That's not to say it wasn't fun sometimes! Certainly not. But especially after I was promoted to sysop (a job which, truthfully, I did not much care for), I began to spend a majority of my time here out of a sense of duty and obligation, rather than because it was by my own free will. I was promoted to be The Bureaucrat in March '08, and that also was a job I largely took out of view for the obligations of office and how much I "owed" to GuildWiki, so it only exacerbated the problem. This has been wearing on me for a long time, and now the time has come where I can finally be free of those bonds. I am contributing as a free agent from now on. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 06:52, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I apologize, it seems clear that you dislike writing the same thing over and over again (most people do). However, I had (thought that I) understood everything, then that last comment above this posting threw me completely. If you could take the time to clarfiy (one last time hopefully, you don't want to keep writing this more than we want to keep reading it), I think it would help quite a lot.
 * I agree, that certainly we do not submit postings to your ownership. It seems you are tired of posting here, tired of the site, franky, tired of us. In which case there's a large problem here.
 * While reading what had been posted (I had not seen anything since my post before going to bed last night) I had alarm bells ringing. I'm now delighted of the Wikia move, as you seem... somewhat random at the moment, and, I don't mean this as a threat, or in a nasty way at all, but I'm delighted that we can go over your head, to be honest. I don't mean that we can constantly keep badgering you, but that if needed, we have a more simplifed way of restoring order. That you and PanSola seem to be such good friends, has always slightly worried me also.
 * Frankly, I do feel shafted, and more so from what you've put here, I clearly am not alone. I type out this message knowing full well that there's the chance of all your supporters rallying around you once again, to back you and outnumber us, etc. etc. but I don't care. You seem to harbour a certain amount of resentment for this site, and your mood varies a lot. You have no problem with people here leaving, and frankly if you think this site is dead, feel free to do so yourself. -->Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 13:29, 28 January 2009 (UTC) Mendel: I did not mean that I would be angry with you, just I did not want you to reply and get... grief (for want of a better term) for what you said because of me. Of course you can always speak your mind, and I will never think badly of you when you decide to do so.
 * My above formulation is a bit off. What I meant was that you do not mind in the slightest, if people leave because of you. -->Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 13:33, 28 January 2009 (UTC) Anyone else suddenly remember Stabber when reading all of this?

Entropy, you seem to fail to understand that most people do not understand your "jokingly shafting" tone and simply get offended by it, even if it was not meant as an offense. And don't tell me that you don't care what people think about what you say, because obviously you do, you cared enough to post walls of text here just about that, and attempted to justify it by posting the "disclaimers" on your userpage that I only now got around to reading. Also, it seems to me like relieving yourself of your Bcrat and Sysop duties would solve many of your problems with feelings of obligation or whatever it is at this point. In the real world, you take a job you don't want only if you get paid for it and have no other choice. Why did you take the job here? Seems like you are just punishing yourself on purpose, fully knowing that you don't have to. Step down and stop the drama before you start abusing your privileges. This is not YOUR wiki, you owe nothing to it, let the lucky heirs deal with it. RoseOfKali 21:54, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

This is exactly why I am choosing to resign instead of bothering to try and defend myself: it's not worth my time or yours. Fact check: No, you can't "go above" me. I've dared people to try that in the past, and nothing came of it. Wikia is not involved enough here to have that kind of power. Also, I'm not friends with PanSola. :\ (T/C) 23:56, 28 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I think your recent declaration of love might've contributed to the confusion, thought beyond that I'm also not certain how the (mis)conception came about. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 00:31, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks entropy for taking the time to correct me, both with the tags and the misconception I had about what you were saying. As for the tags you fixed, wide screen monitor is to blame. I really never knew that it messed up the page. Anyway back to the point, I appreciate you taking the time to explain what you meant. I think that people should give it another read. I actually understand a bit of what you mean. I have been in positions before where I felt a responsibility to do something, rather than desired to. That can cause hard feelings, if not out right resentment. I can't speak much about the people talking about supporters and such, I don't really keep up that much on politics. That goes for online or in real life. There just always seems to be something else to study. Anyway I just wanted to take a chance to tell you thanks. When you typed this:
 * I do it as a hobby, for fun, for amusement. That is how things ought to have been from the start; it's very bad to take an action not because you wish to, but because you feel forced or compelled to. Yet, for almost three years now, that's exactly what I have done
 * I think I understand a bit more now about your feelings. I know we are not friends, and I don't mean any of this to sound too personal. I still would like to say that I hope you get a chance to enjoy posting on this wiki again. Like I said politics are way beyond me, but maybe that is what took some of the fun out of being around. Anyway, thanks again, and I hope you find a way to enjoy these things again. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke MekkoMy Talk Page 07:20, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay... confusion abounds. For one thing, I'd say whoever it was frankly couldn't be bothered, I'm reasonably certain that Wikia have their own ways of ensuring they can protect what they pay for. And the feeling is mutual? Well... I don't want the top job, so... -->Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 13:13, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Example
Check check.--Łô√ë <font color="Black">îğá†ħŕášħ 23:37, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Nice. Watch this space . -- ◄mendel► 03:50, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Peek-a-boo, I steal from you
Hi there, mind if I borrow, slightly alter , totally steal your userbox and use it to my own end?

The original:

My idea:

Just thought I'd ask, since it's your userbox about you ^ ^ -->Suicidal Tendencie 14:42, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't mind having one of those either :P Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|18px]] (T/C) 14:54, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
 * WTB. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 15:10, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Please don't consider this me telling you what to do, but I do think we should wait until Mendel says yes (which he probably will anyway, but shouldn't be taken for granted), also, cookies for me for being not-quite-lazy-enough-to-not-bother making the userbox :D -->Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 15:16, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
 * CC BY-NC-SA means it's never stealing or borrowing, and that altering is fine. It's nice of you to ask me whether I mind you using this box as a starting point to make your own, and no, I don't. I'm proud that you think this event is worth commemorating. -- ◄mendel► 15:32, 28 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Stealing back stolen bracket. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  15:33, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Legally perhaps, I always try to work with moral... hm... perhaps I should think of a whole sentence before I start typing. Nah. Thanx for the go ahead, and it was a bit of fun, no point not remembering it, certainly when you consider the amount of space used by a userbox (the actual userbox, not coding). -->Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 15:48, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

New version:

-->Suicidal Tendencie 15:41, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, if you're only going to use it on this wiki, use

(Hint: look at code) &mdash; <font color="#7777CC">Balistic 01:19, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

IE tabs
I'm not sure what happened, but they are totally fixed and back to normal now (no whitespace after the border - my personal fixes never addressed that so it wasn't me either). Maybe Wikia did something. (T/C) 03:20, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

*poke*
Hey, I finally saw the email you sent to me which was last year. No, nothing bad has happened to me, it's just I've lost interest in Guild Wars as a whole (as happens with games) since it seems to me like a dead and dying game where the devs have all nicked off to working on its successor. I hope things are going well here, without *too* much drama; I'm sure you can all live without me. Jennalee 04:18, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, sure we can live without you, but we're better off with you here. :-) Anyway, be sure to check back in April. -- ◄mendel► 12:11, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Sigh... they'll add it, and the very next day, remove it all, roar "April Fools!", then laugh their heads off and forget to reinsert the content for about 2 weeks... -->Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 18:47, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

guildwars.com unavailable
I've tried everything! The official guildwars website and GWW have black listed South Africa or something. I've tried from several different computers, types of connections, from campus, EVERYWHERE. I can't access those sites. It's rather irritating and there's no way to fix it. My friends and me are becoming rather frustrated, it's been like this since last year! All I get is a stupid error message that says :

Service Unavailable

The requested service is temporarily unavailable. It is either overloaded or under maintenance. Please try later. Please give me advice QQ Silver Sunlight (T/C) 13:38, 2 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Try http://206.127.153.172/ and http://206.127.153.151/ . If those don't work for you, move this request over to Request_assistance, maybe somebody else has an idea. And how about http://eu.guildwars.com/ ( http://206.127.147.13/ ) ? Support is on http://eu.plaync.com/eu/help/support-guildwars/ ; if that doesn't work either you could send email, but I don't know where to. -- ◄mendel► 16:44, 2 February 2009 (UTC)


 * It might be slow, but the eu.guildwars.com worked :) I still find it strange that we can't access any of the other sites. On a side note, I'm going over to the Dark side in a week or two. (More commonly known as World of Warcraft) Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|18px]] (T/C) 19:32, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * WAAAAAAAAAAT 208.44.247.101 20:07, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * You seem strangely convinced of this. Well, let me know whether you think the monthly rent is worth it, once the "new toy" enchantment wears off. ;-P -- ◄mendel► 04:45, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Template talk:Faintheartedness
Something needs fixing and I'm not sure what. Take a look at it when you have time :)  &not; Wizårdbõÿ777  ( talk ) 09:33, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Template question
The way I understand a template it can be used to insert something. O.k. that is overly broad but I think you know what I mean. For example if I wanted to use the to show Image:Tenetkelaughing.gif. Would that be possible? That way anyone that wanted to insert a smiley into a talk page could simply do so. I am not sure if this is possible or not, if it is let me know as I think it would be kind of fun to create a set of GW themed smileys. Tenetke MekkoMy Talk Page 22:46, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * NO! No smileys!  Especially not animated ones!  I like our wiki format as it is because there AREN'T any stupid smileys.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 22:53, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Technologically it is possible. There are also social-communal concerns to be taken into consideration. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 22:56, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * In theory, yes. would work. However, for performance reasons it'd usually substituted in as, and then [[Image:Smiley.jpg]] or [[Image:Smiley.png]] works just as well (though we do have ). Fyi, these are [[Image:Smiley.jpg|20px]] and [[Image:Smiley.png|20px]] (and ). I'd also discourage the use of animated smileys, and encourage vector-drawn ones. -- ◄mendel► 22:59, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * If there isn't vector-drawn animated smileys yet, there will be soon. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 23:09, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, didn't realize people were against them. Never really thought about it. Just curious but what is wrong with animated smileys? Also any objections to me still using this one Image:Tenetkelaughing.gif takes up about 1kb? [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke MekkoMy Talk Page 00:13, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Some people find animated stuff, in general, to be distracting/annoying. Unless they are watching something they specifically want and know and is expecting to be animated (eg a movie). -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 00:22, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Same as blink tags, blinking animations distract me when I'm trying to read. -- ◄mendel► 00:28, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, well I won't use it often then. For mendel take a look at my user page, did that one in about 5 mins not hard. Anyway seems to have been a bad idea about the smileys. Not sure about doing svg animated smileys though, I am not good at vector graphics to begin with. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke MekkoMy Talk Page 00:32, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that one looks nice. (Not GW-related though ;-) On important size to demo is 19px because that's the one to use in text. -- ◄mendel► 00:41, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * [[Image:Tenetkevectorsmiley.svg|19px]] If you are interested I will theme them of course. BTW did you see my logo work for the fringe wiki? If not take a look and tell me what you think [HERE] oh and the smile is slanted on purpose that is how I grin. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke MekkoMy Talk Page 01:06, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Should I do it similar to [[Image:Tuxinguildwarsarmor.png|20 px]]? [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke MekkoMy Talk Page 01:10, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Check out my user page for Sith Tux, thought you might like it [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke MekkoMy Talk Page 02:11, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * One day retro style will come back in force and the blink tags and under construction signs from websites of the 90's will be hip again!!! -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 00:30, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Yes, distraction while reading is exactly why I am vehemently opposed to animated smileys. We forbid animated sig icons for the same reason. Seriously, why do we need smileys now when the wiki has survived without them for the past three years? ASCII emoticons are perfectly sufficient... >.> &mdash;Dr Ishmael  02:58, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Because "if you allow custom signatures for users, you are opening the door to creativity and individuality for users"? [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:02, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Because colors other than black, gray, and white (and lightblue ;-) ruin our color scheme? -- ◄mendel► 03:10, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't even know where to review the rules regarding animated icon use. It isn't so much that the wiki needs smileys, just like other ways of communicating they aren't needed, but they are nice additions. I would look into a way of letting some users see them and others not, but I don't have much experience with wiki coding. Would probably be too much work, and honestly not worth it. Still I think most everyone is objecting to animated emoticons though. It wouldn't be hard to create a few templates with   that kind of thing. It ensures that only the people that wanted to use them would, and there wouldn't be any accidents. At 19px it is small, and like the one above not very intrusive. For me it isn't about something we need, just something that might be fun to do. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]   Tenetke Mekko    My Talk 04:39, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * If you set up the templates with the images inside span/div tags with a specific class, i.e., then anyone could hide them with personal CSS.  And I suppose I could compromise with that.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 06:05, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * First, it's span tags, not divs. Second, not gonna do it. -- ◄mendel► 06:26, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

black and white smileys
I think we should try some black and white or "link blue" smileys. My main concern is that in discussions, the sigs stick out visually so we know who posts what and where posts end; and we need to make the smileys ☺ so they don't compete with the sigs, which means they ought to blend into the text in terms of color and line width/"blackness" ☻. If they don't, simply having an opt-out is not acceptable. -- ◄mendel► 06:26, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I think I agree with Mendel's last comment. Colored smileys would get confused with sigs too much and make our indented commenting scheme rather hard to read.  But I like his little text smileys, the white one better than the inverted.  Would be nice if a couple basic ones were added to the normal editing buttons, like :) :P :D <3 ;) >:@ and maybe a thumbs up and a confused smiley, if they exist in text-based symbols, or whatever it's called that makes this ☺ . A little larger (closer to full 19px) would be good.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 07:59, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * They don't have to be text-based, I'm pretty certain Tenetke is able to produce nice black and white smileys if he likes the idea. ;-) -- ◄mendel► 13:17, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I didn't like Dr Ishmael's idea because that would require people that don't want to see them to do something extra. Doesn't really seem fair to me. On the black and white icons I can do the black and white ones as a vector image at 19 px. There is no way I could theme them though, and that is actually a good thing. It turns out that other groups out there are interested in this similar thing but never really got anything done. So I will do the text images at 18 px black and white. I dont know what the >:@ symbol means though. Also is this compromise acceptable to everyone? Tenetke Mekko   My Talk 04:05, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * That was supposed to be "angry," and I agree with your proposal. In any case, it's a start, and I don't think anyone will have a problem with it.  And I also don't like the idea of having to do something to your CSS if you want to disable them, if anything, it should be the opposite.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 04:59, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * if anything, it should be the opposite. I completely agree with you RoseOfKali. I will have the first draft up in a little bit. Doing that and working on getting vmware up and running because I pay for netflix and I want to watch my netflix on linux damn it. =P [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]  Tenetke Mekko    My Talk 05:53, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Meh, *I* would've been fine with an opt-out scheme. But whatever.  And I like the b/w color scheme idea.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 05:58, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, *I* still think that an "opt-IN" is more appropriate for colored ones. But what Tenetke is doing shouldn't create any problems, so that's irrelevant. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 06:06, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, as usual, I'm late to the party. But, just wondering, what's so special about similies? Generally new ideas are added, and if you don't like the idea that's fine, you can choose to ignore it. e.g. when everyone goes mental over Wintersday or whatnot. I don't have a problem with you having to enable smilies (or whatever) but I would appreciate someone taking the time to quickly tell me why smilies are opt-in, when wintersday stuff (etc.) is opt-out. Personally I'd just be happier with someone stating a reason for it. Thanx to whoever ends up telling me [if anyone ;)]. -->Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 13:08, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Smileys aren't opt-in. We've agreed that black and white smileys are acceptable, and everyone can use and see them.
 * We had an argument over colored and animated smileys, and you can't say "if they're annoying turn them off" if they annoy a large proportion of wiki users; it is more acceptable to say "they're annoying but you only see them when you turned them on".
 * The difference to Wintersday is that the decorations were going to be turned off anyway, and that most users actually liked them. --212.6.123.204 13:52, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

smiley drafts
This is a rough draft I put it at I think 32px for icon size but since it is an svg that isn't a problem. Let me know if this is what you had in mind or not. Tenetke Mekko   My Talk 06:38, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Judging [[Image:Wikismiley.svg |12px]] by this [[Image:Wikismiley.svg |14px]] text, [[Image:Wikismiley.svg |16px]] it needs [[Image:Wikismiley.svg |18px]] some more whitespace at the bottom so it lines up better with the text.
 * [[Image:Wikismiley.svg |66px]][[Image:Wikismiley.svg |40px]][[Image:Wikismiley.svg |32px]] Looks nice, though. -- ◄mendel► 06:48, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Been taking a bit to work on them, I can't seem to figure out how to do an angry face, but I got the =O, =), and =P done. Now I need to figure out how to make a template for them. All I have for the next few days is work, no school stuff, so I can finally finish them and add in some more whitespace. edit: It seems that [[Image:wikismiley.svg |16px]] lines up o.k., and [[Image:wikismiley.svg | 19px]] isn't that far off. The problem I am running into with whitespace is the vector calculation. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]  Tenetke Mekko    My Talk 14:54, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Lost Generation
Down baby, down down down down down. Seriously all the hope in the world won't change anything, only action will. Lets try it a different way: couldn't help it mendel. Just had to make a joke. I do think hope is good, and without that good intention you won't really have the desire to do the action. Anyway I don't know, I guess I read it right to left. Tenetke Mekko   My Talk 20:24, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
 * TBPH I watched it until :48 and then I realized that it was either
 * A) A emo based video thats supposed to change my life, and no one likes those.
 * or, B) A sarcastic view of how Science is always wrong, and no one likes those.
 * So I voted C) Inside-Out, because Insanity is its own reason, process and result.--Łô√ë [[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg|Roar.]]<font color="Black">îğá†ħŕášħ 03:42, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, you've only read it down then, so that's what you should vote. I don't suppose it will change your life, but it's nice (intelectually) how reversing the direction of the text reverses the belief. -- ◄mendel► 04:09, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

About the sidebar
This might be of interest to you (and GuildWiki) : w:Forum:Monaco sidebar and language in preferences (bug?). — TulipVorlax 02:54, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

World University
Hi M.mendel,

Thanks for your note. I'm first and foremost interested in making the wiki easily accessible on a handheld. SemanticWiki (?) sounds good. Tell me more about why, please? An URL? I may contact the Wikia folks, soon, about this. But thoughts about whether SemanticWiki will make WUaS more accessible on a handheld, and therefore in the developing world? And thoughts about how to do this otherwise ?

(helianth 03:18, 16 February 2009 (UTC)helianth)


 * Get hosting without ads, they compete for display space on the handhelds, so it is imperative that you get wiki hosting without them. Don't contact Wikia, contact the Wikimedia Foundation. Semantic MediaWiki helps you organize your course tables; your course tables will be impossible to maintain if you get more and want people not savvy with this kind of wiki to add theirs unless you use a tool like that. -- ◄mendel► 03:26, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi M.mendel,

THIS RESPONSE IS MORE DIRECT to YOUR NOTE (I coudn't see your note while writing the first note): Thanks for your note. I'm first and foremost interested in making the wiki easily accessible on a handheld. Semantic MediaWiki sounds good, but since Jimmy Wales said he would support WUaS and he's done Wikipedia with its 70-200 languages support, I'd like to see what we can do with these technologies. Tell me more about why WikiMedia foundation might be helpful, please? An URL? As the database, in conjunction with Wikia? But thoughts about whether SemanticWiki will make WUaS more accessible on a handheld, and therefore in the developing world? And thoughts about how to do this otherwise ?

M.Mendel wrote: "If you really want to go with the monobook skin, you ought to ask WikiMedia foundation (not wikia) to sponsor your wiki. I'd also suggest using the Semantic MediaWiki and Semantic Forms extensions to manage your course database on the wiki, yet make it easy to add more courses and sort and select them by certain criteria. It's not even hard to set this up, if you really do this then I can help you. Leave a message on my talkpage to reach me. --◄mendel► 00:41, 16 February 2009 (UTC)"

(helianth 03:29, 16 February 2009 (UTC)helianth)


 * Wikipedia and some other projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation, which is a non-profit entity. Wikia is running Wikis for profit, using advertising as their sole source of revenue. If you cannot google "Wikimedia Foundation", you don't deserve a link. Actually, if you had done so, you would have found Wikiversity already. -- ◄mendel► 03:34, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Update 2005: Updated monster difficulty in Augury Rock
You have changed this from 'location' to 'explorable'. There has never been monsters in the 'explorable' version of Augury Rock, however, neither does the location. So, we are both wrong, I'll guess :) Still wondering how this ends up in update notes. Wasn't Augury Rock also the 'group'name of the explorables surrounding the location ? Ah well, doesn't matter now..-- -- ( talk ) 12:40, 18 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The Doppelganger is in the Augury Rock explorable. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  14:19, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
 * yeah, but does *he/she* count as 'monster' as described in update note ? I doubt it.-- [[Image:merty_sign.gif]]-- ( talk ) 15:40, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

GW:YAV
linkie

It is? I asked an YAVs (not YAV Draft 1s) talk page, and got no response. I see no reason for this article to count as being revisited, as far as I can see it was and then people seemed to just forget about it.

I hope you don't mind me coming here... you're an exceptionally approachable person who I often turn to for advice. I'd appreciate any thoughts you have on this, thanx :) -->Suicidal Tendencie 09:39, 20 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, "currently" is of course a bit of a stretch. I'm not sure whether we as a community have formed an opinion on whether we want any of the changes that DE suggested, or whether they've become part of the community standards, but I'llthink about it and get back to you later. -- ◄mendel► 09:57, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanx Mendel. Like I said on the talk page, I feel that GW:YAV, and to an extent, GW:NPA will always be in contention. If that's the right word to use... I've been rather unsure of my vocabulary in recent times >< While I would like things on the site to be up-to-date as much as possible, I want to make sure YAV isn't on that list for the wrong reasons. I know it was added for the right reasons, so it should be removed, for the right reasons, at the right time. -->Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 10:06, 20 February 2009 (UTC) I hope this made some sense... I do have a point even if I'm not sure how to explain it.
 * Well, if it bothers you that GW:YAV is on the list, it can probably be removed, because whoever wabnts to revive it can put it up again. I don't do it because it serves as a reminder to me that the draft is there (should be listed under "failed proposals"?), and that GW:YAV needs to be balanced with GW:STUPID somehow. -- ◄mendel► 19:36, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Cursing
Does one get punished for yelling FFS words, not letters ? If so you'll need to ban me for a few hours or whatever the process is. -->Suicidal Tendencie 11:45, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * well, it wasn't directly aimed at a person, it was a shout of frustration (which I had done silently plenty of times for that page).--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]<font color="Green">El_Nazgir 11:47, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * "For fuck's sake"? If you put that on an article you might get warned, but other than that, probably not. Mild swearing is compatible with our age rating. (What page?) -- ◄mendel► 11:49, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:El_Nazgir/skills/Twin_Shuriken_Strike#new_functionality -->Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 11:49, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * If people ever get banned for swearing with god as their witness I'm going to GWW.--Łô√ë [[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg|Roar.]]<font color="Black">îğá†ħŕášħ 11:50, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * tbh, I don't expect to be punished
 * tbh, I hope to be punished -->Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 11:50, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * 0.o You're a masochist?--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]<font color="Green">El_Nazgir 11:51, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm 17, explain moar plzkthx -->Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 11:52, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Ya, found the page after a quicklook at RC. ;-) We have a chat channel for a reason, people. ;-) Oh, and if you need punishment, praying 15 "ave maria" should be ample. -- ◄mendel► 11:53, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * (EC - the irony is not amusing) I'll put it like this. I want the site to be of a high standard. That means a certain amount of temporary banning to keep people in line. Rules have to exist and to be obeyed. If I got punished, it would make me feel better about the stanard of the site... -->Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 11:56, 20 February 2009 (UTC) I have no problem being punished when I feel I deserve it, I won't hold a grudge where I can understand, if not agree, with the reason given.
 * If gwiki would start banning people for getting frustrated and showing it a bit, I think we wouldn't have admins or sysops half of the time ;-) --[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]<font color="Green">El_Nazgir 11:59, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Mendel, want to promote me to Sysop, then demote me straight away? I could have a userbox for shortest ever Sysop :D -->Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 12:03, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, and then PanSola bans me for abusing Bcrat tools, and half the editors get disgusted with the wikidrama and leave. Amazing plan! :-P -- ◄mendel► 12:16, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * THat wouldn't be much punnishment, would it? Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 12:19, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

(RI) That was clearly a different idea Arnout. But yes, I should have made a new heading for it. -->Suicidal Tendencie 12:23, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Testimonial
How could I get my op. in thar? ^^--<font face="Book Antiqua" color="Green">Alc <font face="Times New Roman" color="#004444" size="0,5">^^  18:33, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * He hasn't told you? We all go through the same process, which improves our inventory by giving us more free space. On an unrelated topic, one of Mendel's characters ocassionally will get Obsidian armor approx one hour later. Glad I could help :) --> Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 21:35, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * You can't. The testimonials were written humorously because some of these quotes are actually badly ripped out of context, so anything you'd write with the intent of getting in there wouldn't be selected. If you want to tell me how much you like me, write it on my talk, I always appreciate that. You could also make your own testimonial section on your own userpage where you write testimonials for other people on the wiki. Be creative! -- ◄mendel► 23:22, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Lol at Suicidal Tendencie. I didn't pay for my quote, I just vandalized his page. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 18:20, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I do hope you realize I was joking... if not... oh dear... raises voice Medic? --> Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 19:46, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Ofcourse you where joking. Good old reliable Mendel wouln'd charge over 600K for a post on his page would he? He wouldn't, right? Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 19:54, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Nah, I usually take 100k or a rare undeciated mini. -- ◄mendel► 19:57, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * How rare? Most rare ones go for a lot more then 100K. See the RoseofKali her talkpage. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 19:59, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

User talkpage: Archive question
Yes, that's right. I've seen so much of you recently, you get quite probably the most accurate section header yet. You must be delighted.

Anyways, if there's a policy / guide / bit of a scribble on a piece of toilet paper advising when to archive a talk page, I'd be much obliged if you'd point me in the right direction. --> Suicidal Tendencie 22:19, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Is that a hint that I should archibe my talkpage? ;-) Anyway, what I wrote at Archiving_help still stands. -- ◄mendel► 23:24, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanx Mendel, but the page could be twice as long. We could add new ideas. Or, we could just give a complete list of Entropy's archives, lolz. She has more archives than I have sections in my talk page *lonely*
 * And no, tbh, I was thinking my page might soon be ready for the great honour. --> Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 07:47, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Vanquishing
Do you does it? &mdash; Powersurge360  19:56, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't, but my partner does. -- ◄mendel► 19:58, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


 * So I couldn't entice you to join me in a romp, then? &mdash; Powersurge360  19:59, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the sentiment. Ask again at 3 am GMT tonight, please. ;-) -- ◄mendel► 20:05, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Dunno if you're still on, but I just got back from hanging out with my friends. I don't know your name, but mine is Donnie Louse. PM me if you're interested. &mdash; Powersurge360  04:18, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I knew I'd forget that. I'd already gone to bed by the time you posted, sorry. -- ◄mendel► 12:11, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

orphaned redirects
eh, why are we going out of our way to delet orphaned redirects again? -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 01:23, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Because these are the ones with Explorable capitalized that I don't want editors to think they can use in links, and nobody's going to use those in the searchbox anyway. -- ◄mendel► 11:12, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Focus templates
Please see Focus/Gallery for an obvious problem. RoseOfKali 03:33, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Ya, there's a reason why i'm not responsible for that page! ;-) Anyway, to fix the problems properly, convert the Foci that use the WeaponInfo box to use the OffhandInfo, remove that section from the gallery, and then redirect the Template:OffhandInfo.gallery to the WeaponInfo.gallery (I think). It'd be nice if someone would make the foci and wands and staves display the professions they have attributes for... -- ◄mendel► 11:28, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah... Should we change that before I go on into botmode? And you lost me after converting into OffhandInfo, so I'll do that and then bug you again. We should still improve the template, but I dunno where/what/how to do. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 15:26, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Junundu help
Some people say that even if the Junundu is so strong, I die because he hasn't any self-healing... Well I can help you out with a very simple trick: When you enter a group of Undead creatures (or whatever) Always rush in as first. Before rushing in, activate Junundu Tunnel, then select a target foe, get near to it and use Junundu Bite ---> This grants you a knock-down + 500 health and damage. You almost have no worries and you even don't have to use Junundu Wail. Pay attention before using Junundu Bite, because most of the Undead will interrupt you when rushing. When interrupted, better take distance, otherwise you will certainly die. Good luck (Farmers and HM) Jorre22225


 * That is not really a trick, that's actually the only viable heal you have, because Smash almost always gets interrupted due to its eternal cast time. However, you have no damage prevention at all, so 500HP once in a blue moon is nowhere near enough to survive comfortably.  This is why Wail is so overpowered to compensate, and this is why Junundu don't get affected by DP, but completely suck once you have to get out of them with 60%DP.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 16:23, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Rose, I assume Jorre found this info on French GuildWiki and thinks we should have it here. Could you move it to where it belongs? I'm kinda busy with lots of other wiki things, not to mention RealLifeTM. -- ◄mendel► 16:28, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Yha... Just to mention, this is only a safer way. Btw, today I achieved Legendary Spearsmarshal :p (Indeed, it comes from the French GuildWiki, this could be useful anyway)

PvXwiki poll / announcement discussion
A little late and this question should be on the talk page of the announcement, but that one is flooded with -negative- remarks about PVXWiki and not the page itselves. The thing is, that I don't get it why you are making this page, announcement and poll. I know, pvxwiki is a kind of spin-off of 'our' wiki. But they are independent now and what they want to do with their hosting is up to them. Why are *we* gonna discuss this ? IMHO, PanSolo is right in his comment that that should be discussed on the pvxwiki site, not here. But, knowing you, you don't do this without a good reason. Somehow, I'm missing something, I think, please enlighten me :)..-- -- ( talk ) 13:30, 25 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I made the page because the move was mentioned on our irc chat. It's been obvious to me that some of us would be interested, and 1000+ poll votes seem to indicate I haven't been wrong. So we needed a place to discuss how that move affects us, and that has been done on the talkpage. If we hadn't had a focus for this, it'd probably have surfaced somewhere else.
 * The poll was for different reasons, and I think I outlined some of them at the bottom of the talk there. -- ◄mendel► 15:57, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Folding like a napkin, revisited
Hi, I was thinking about the table again. Although this wiki does not do things by looking for a past precedent, I generally do. LordKestrel makes a very interesting point here I think. It might be worth making new pages to make use of such tables. Since we document information, it's just one method of doing what we already do - I can't see the harm in doing so. --> Suicidal Tendencie 14:02, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Lord Kestrel makes two points, but not very well. One is that for him this list is easier to use than looking up the skills separately (when he is elite capping, presumably). The other is, "what's the problem?" <-- and the counter to that is, two lists need to be kept updated.
 * I have asked you to the make the case for the table (why is it useful?) that Lord Kestrel makes (or I presume wants to make) there. The case against is that introducing SMW makes the wiki more complicated, so you can't just say "what's the problem". (Whether SMW is ultimately worth it is what we'll have to decide after the pilot is done.) -- ◄mendel► 16:10, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm with Mendel on this one. There are plenty of skill references that need to be updated every time Anet decides to "balance" things, and there's no demonstrated need for another one that repeats information that's already out there in a slightly different format.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]]
 * Rose, you are not informed enough. Suicidal really refers to the issue on Talk:Vabbi. SMW means that the tables get updated automatically when the skill changes are applied to the skill page, much like our QRs work now. -- ◄mendel► 19:32, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Opinion needed
User_talk:RoseOfKali. Thanks. RoseOfKali 16:29, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I can't help feeling a lack of consistancy. One Two

We'll limit ourselves to including helpful information in the context of playing the game such as a scar being similar to Chinese script, something I find more and more utterly irrelevant and unimportant every time I consider it.

Personally I'm beginning to feel like there's no place for me here. Whenever I voice an opinion I'm shot down. My view seems to be quite different than that from the majority of people here. All I'll achieve is messing with the usual format. What that is, is beyond me.

You're an exceptionally rational person, so I fully look forward to learning how the above makes sense and, though a point you would never make, obvious. I do enjoy feeling like I am learning something. --> Suicidal Tendencie 18:59, 25 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, you should read up on how much I got shot down when I started (a lot!). The highlight must've been when I ban-tagged Auron, though. :-P
 * So of course the Chinese script thing is not useful, and it's the exception that I need the "usually" for in my "Talk:Vabbi" statement. If you're ready to consider a table of "what services are available at which outpost" to be trivia as well (my argument is that it's useless because everyone just maps to a town if they need something not in the outpost where they're at), there's no inconsistency: we could document it, but I wouldn't condone converting to SMW merely to document trivia.
 * Trivia are useful when they help us understand the game design better; when we can explain the Halcyon as being a reference to Firefly, our understanding of the game that is our hobby is enhanced. -- ◄mendel► 19:21, 25 February 2009 (UTC)


 * <WoT>A shame... my expectations for you seem to have crossed that achievable by mere mortals (so off you go to max some Titles :P)
 * You got shot down? That's hilarious to think about (I don't mean this in a bad way! If anything, see it as a compliment - I don't readily see you suggesting stupid ideas).
 * I appreciate the comment on it being the exception... you're siding against my point of view, but pulling your punches at the same time.
 * I want to explain this point very well. Should I do a good job, I may, just this once, rival you at... being you. The table is, in many ways, the ultimate way of documenting information. It is concise, it gives nothing but facts, the information is readily available. I did not suggest trivia sections Mendel, I suggested pages. This is fundamentally different. It is a way of listing information on NPCs, we are talking here about components of the game.
 * The similar-to-and-thus-obviously-not-quite-Chinese-script headgear is not a reference confirmed by ArenaNet. This isn't "Dodge This!" we're talking about. I don't think it even matches the standard of a probable reference. It's Factions. It's based on Asia. That Asian-themed headgear is similar in appearance to Asian writing is not exactly a shocking revelation. It's common sense, the site is deciding to hold people's hands, and instead of being a database of informantion, we're making the site an artifical form of common sense.
 * The information is like making a note on the page of a skill in relation to it's usage by AI, if the usage is in no way out of the norm.
 * It's redundant information which serves no purpose. It is not unusual, it's to be expected, it is in no way useful to those playing the game, and I would disagree with it even being interesting. 1) As I said above, it is Asian based writing, in an Asian based game. Thus, the Trivia is not teaching us anything. 2) It is not a reference to something like The Matrix, it is merely similar to writing. While information does not have to be fascinating to be listed, Trivia surely is affected by this to an extent. How many people are likely to frankly care? And of those, how many will be surprised by ASIAN style designs in an ASIAN based game? </WoT> --> Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 20:25, 25 February 2009 (UTC) I know I made the same points constantly. However I already made them, and people replied to me without responding to what I had actually said, so I thought a bit of reinforcement wouldn't do any harm.


 * "Type /report [Character Name], replacing [Character Name] with the character's name (make sure you don't have anyone selected)." Not everyone has common sense. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (srs Viper) &emsp;(talk)  20:32, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * On Rose's talk, you made a case for that trivia to be up in the description section. Now you are making a case for that trivia to be deleted (or, as I'd like it, moved to the talk page). Try doing that, citing INAFR, and you might just not get shot down. ;-) -- ◄mendel► 20:44, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The information is like making a note on the page of a skill in relation to it's usage by AI, if the usage is in no way out of the norm. 
 * Sometimes what is the norm for one group will not be the same for another group. You can look at any number of certain skills used by the AI. While some of them are technically used correctly, they are spammed;used at the wrong times etc. So while using a healing spell to heal is the norm there is nothing to say that it should always be used in the situations that the AI uses it in. Is it common sense to note that the AI will use a healing spell to heal? No, but at the same time if that AI spams it needlessly using up energy, or just using it at inappropriate times, is it worthy of noting? To different people it is worth noting. Some will consider it hand-holding some will consider it useful. The ability for one person to make that decision is not really appropriate, that is why consensus is important. Information, even if thought useless by some, is still information. It is my understanding that what the wikia is for is providing information. Consensus can help filter what is most useful to what is not useful. Then again maybe I am wrong. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]  Tenetke Mekko    My Talk 20:59, 25 February 2009 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) twice... Well, as far as the Chinese script is concerned, this is the ONLY piece of armor that actually has it, and the meaning is not something random but that of "Chinese written language" so I find it an interesting piece of trivia, even if you don't. But that's just me. There were several people "refining" the wording of that particular trivia, so they all seem to agree that it is a possible reference, being too close for a coincidence in an Asian based game, and even Suicidal moved it to the Description, making it that much more prominent than a little trivia section at the bottom of the article. So I don't think INAFR quite applies here. Also, for example, I find it interesting that Hai Ji is actually closer to the Vermilion Bird than the cliche "Chinese Phoenix." Not everything is common sense, even if it seems that way to some. It's to be expected... it is Asian... in an Asian based game... Well, not everyone is familiar with Asian culture, so they would not "expect" to see these things. The nature of trivia is such that most people don't know it, and it is up to those who do to share it. And I didn't know there was a standard of a probable reference. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 21:02, 25 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Refining the wording --> Yes, as I often do. You may have seen a "This user often edits notes without considering their validity". Many do. Simply rewording something does not show long and thought out consideration on if the note belongs there, as you well know yourself.
 * Suicidal moved it to the Description Yes, I moved it. Much more prominent? Not my intention. Again, as you well know. It was moved as I do not see the need for a section based on frankly dodgy information, I decided to move it and keep the information there, out of respect for you, and to reach a compromise. With no discussion, you went ahead and did your own thing.
 * Well, not everyone is familiar with Asian culture... You don't really consider this a worthwhile point, do you? Everyone expects to see the writing to be consistant with the location. Asian based writing, Asian based location.
 * To be honest, I think you've become blind to the argument. You're refusing to consider the arguments given which disagree with you, and you're clearly putting the inclusion of the information ahead of what's best for the page, and thus the site as a whole. --> Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 17:37, 26 February 2009 (UTC)


 * ST: Why do you prefer the Trivia to be placed under Description, and not Trivia? We have a separate Trivia and Notes section on skills, and those have quite some "dodgy information" (using your words). I honestly cannot see the difference, except that it's less obviously Trivia this way. When answering this question, completely ignore the validity of the note, as it's fully irrelevant (it's like saying McDonals > Burger King when talking about SubWay sandwiches...), please. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  18:00, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Ignore the validity? How dare you! McDonalds > BurgerKing, which is always valid!
 * On a serious note... as I said, I wanted it removed, but compromise and being reasonable does not always go hand-in-hand with getting your own way. I did not know the characters, and so could not be sure how similar the headgear was to the reality. I can't fully explain why but putting it in the description seemed to make it less attention grabbing. I felt it was, at best, dodgy Relevant to the attribute? No, none of them. To the profession? No. The EXACT characters? No. so I thought, why devote a section to unfounded waffling?
 * You asked me to avoid including validity... I cannot do so Viper, you are incorrect. I do not prefer it. I did. Validity was the reasoning I had in my head when making the edit, I do not see how I can do as you ask (answer the question, ignore validity) when they are over-lapping.
 * The reason why I put it in Description, well, I still feel it should be there, if anywhere (which I would rather it were not, 'cept the Talk Page). Please refer to my Plagueborn staff argument. Both are one and the same. So, why, in the Plagueborn Staff article, is the pieces of flesh not mentioned in Trivia? --> Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 18:12, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * As I already mentioned long ago, flesh is common knowledge, details of Asian script are trivial, most people can't tell Japanese from Korean, etc. So there is no solid ground in comparing the two as being one and the same.  And a Trivia section clearly indicates that the information contained is trivial and not really important, just may be interesting to some readers who decide to scroll to the end of the page to see it, but it's not in their face as soon as they load the page.  But really, all else aside, is there any reason to continue this?  Seriously.  Can't we just leave the bloody thing alone?  Just let whatever sysop make the final decision, and forget about it, it's not worth all the drama, it's a fucking piece of TRIVIA for crying out loud!  LEAVE BRI-- THE NECRO ALOOOONE!!!  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 20:01, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I
Won't be here over the weekend, and I probably won't have internet access, so not on friday, thursday, or the weekend.--Łô√ë <font color="Black">îğá†ħŕášħ 04:57, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * So you got my RPG mail then. I'd been hoping for weekend sadly. Another time then. -- ◄mendel► 05:12, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Image editing
Sure I will do that, have to wait a few days. Just got my new computer and I am still setting it up, I need to redo a partition and install a better 64 version. I am thinking about going pure debian 5 on it, then again I enjoy some aspects of ubuntu. Backport is going on my older one and laptop for obvious reasons. I am happy I have been wanting to test out this new amd phenom for a bit and finally saved up enough to get it. Went with the standard hp 8 gig ram, nvidia 9500 etc. Need to do some soldering work, put in a water cooling system, and I have an older nvidia I am going to put in with it. I need a new power supply before I can go with sli, but that is a bit of money down the road. Also modding a spare 360, going with a Naruto mod, and my class on internal digestion starts march 2 I think. Plenty to do, but I really enjoy doing image work. So that will give me a few ideas of what this new setup can do, and I can run a few displays at once with multiple desktops on each once I get another card. Do you have any ideas for what you think would look good? I was thinking maybe the GW2 logo shrunk down some, shadowed up a bit, work with the alpha of course, then stop sign and beveled? Let me know what ideas you have. Tenetke Mekko   My Talk 22:12, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I thought along the same lines as you, tbh. Get creative and surprise us! ;-) -- ◄mendel► 23:10, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Norn, Asuran, Deldrimor & Monumental Farming boost
I haven't checked yet on this site if you mentioned this already, but here's a help: For reputation points, you can complete books to raise the title track up, but at rank 8 hero & master books in NM cannot be turned in anymore. I found something useful, and much faster: You can raise your reputation points up to 79999, 1 point before rank 8 (For safer way, take between 79800-79900 to not accidently take a hunt bonus and loose it for 1 enemy) Then turn in a hero/master book in, wich raises the title up to rank 9 without even completing any HM books. This way, you won't have to farm/book many times to raise it up, but just once. Indeed, this is possible for all the 4 titles. For the Deldrimor title, if you accidently raise it up to rank 8 because of brawling or farming in dungeons, don't worry. Deldrimor is the most easiest of the 4 to achieve, because most people run those points with Secret Lair of the Snowmen --> 800-1500p NM, 1500-2500 HM. Happy Farming! <Jorre22225>
 * Yeah, but I imagine more most people What? I never said I'd make sense... use CoF runs to get the Delver Title maxed... or indeed, 100% of the Title --> Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 13:04, 28 February 2009 (UTC)


 * People use CoF runs for Feld? O-o" Guess you learn something new every day :P --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  21:56, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I use it for Ebon Vanguard, lol. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 21:57, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I used HM Hero books. Everything is H/H-able and pretty fast. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 06:55, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah Rose, but then there's us lazy people.
 * We buy the game so we can pay people we don't know money that doesn't exist to play the game for us =) --> Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 21:52, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh... Well, I don't buy money that doesn't exist in exchange for real money so that I can give the non-existent money to someone to play the game for me. :P RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 23:09, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * No... so we can buy the game... I never said anything about buying GW money... --> Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 21:36, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, if you don't want to play the game, then how are you going to get the non-existent money to pay other people to play it for you? :P RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 00:42, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Suic got the third eternal sword drop, he sold it for 20 armbraces, and will never need money again, ever.--Łô√ë [[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg|Roar.]]<font color="Black">îğá†ħŕášħ 01:47, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh... well, should've bloody said so. O_o RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 03:02, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Giga, I hope you where joking? And 20 ambraces is a lot, but not nearly enough for the stuff I plan on doing. 20 -12 (tormented weapons) = 8, needz more sweet/drunkart/party points. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 07:30, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

help needed
Template_talk:MiniaturesNavBox. Dunno who else to ask. RoseOfKali 18:53, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

moar input plz =)
^ --> Suicidal Tendencie 22:17, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Wait what kinda copyright problem arose at those images???--<font face="Papyrus" color="#227722">Alcedo <font face="Calibri" color="#004444">talk -<font face="Calibri" color="#004444">cont  22:31, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * What input do you need? -- ◄mendel► 23:39, 3 March 2009 (UTC)