User talk:Tupu/Build Archive/Build:Team - Barrage/Pet (Tomb Ruins)

Rate-a-Build

 * Favor:
 * I've played, and finished, with every role on this build at least once. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 17:22, 7 August 2006 (CDT)
 * I've played, and finished, with a number of the Ranger builds (and a very similar monk build), as a guide this is ideal. Some Tombs Barrage Teams these days, will ask if the MM is using Flesh Golem before they even start. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by P.hilling (talk &bull; contribs) 20:35, 8 August 2006  (CDT).
 * Finished with this build about 30 times. Some MMs used Flesh Golem, Bone Fiends and Vampiric Horrors as minions, and it proved quite effective. - 1muvwndr &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.95.214.3 (talk &bull; contribs) 05:21, 10 August 2006 (CDT).
 * Approved on the grounds of the variants I just added. --NieA7 10:26, 10 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Approved. Good job with the cleanup. Armond 17:28, 10 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Ditto to what Sarah said. Fastest team for clearing out Tombs that I've ever been in. Runs were averaging on 30-40 minutes. -- Jyro X [[Image:Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|25px]] (talk • contribs) 17:27, 26 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Approved only because of variants. The build on the main page is just bad. Troll Unguent is a waste of time and points... put the points into a second class attribute like Command for "Go for the Eyes!" or Channeling for Splinter Weapon.


 * Unfavor
 * No concussion shot? No succor? Flesh Golem instead of Tainted or AotL? Mending?! All the novelty of the earlier build article is now gone and this is now just your boring braindead cookiecutterest of cookiecutter b/p groups. Yawn. The rewrite was completely unnecessary. 141.117.57.26 18:32, 7 August 2006 (CDT)
 * This should be a guide, not a build. There is no need to give attributes and skills for something that can be played in a large number of different ways. People will be pointing to guildwiki and saying play this build or piss off, and that is not good for the game. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 154.35.47.59 (talk &bull; contribs) 08:55, 8 August 2006 (CDT).

discussion
archived talk Talk:Team - Barrage/Pet (Tomb Ruins)/Archive1
 * going to wait for at least one more, since we're now tied if you remove the author's vote --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 09:46, 10 August 2006 (CDT)

Minion Master: the MM build I put up was developed during my Tomb runs. Fiends are useless, you need a meatwall from the minions rather than damage - one fiend is nothing compared to one use of Barrage, better to keep the barrager safe. Verata's Sacrifice isn't very helpful either, especially bugged as it is - Death Nova is a better choice as it's easy to keep an eye on the health of the pets. No Dark Bond is asking for a wiping, the MM can't stay too far back otherwise all the corpses will be out of reach.

Orders: Order of Pain and Blood is Power is a better combo than Order of the Vampire and Blood Ritual, if only because Blood Ritual is a touch spell and the monk has to stay within spell range of the front lines. Healing Breeze and Mending is overkill. Succour is probably a better bet than Mending to help keep the monk going. Why No Blood Renewal? Well of Blood is just stealing corpses from the MM, plus it's unlikely that the rest of the party will be that close to where stuff is dying and it's a very bad idea for the orders to be that close to even a corpse of the enemy. Heal Other is very useful to stop the monk from keeling over. --NieA7 09:18, 8 August 2006 (CDT)


 * to anon 141.117.57.26: this is a cookie cutter build because it works and can be easily understood, which is, after all, the point of the builds. i'm sorry if you feel the magic of the old build has been removed, but i have never seen a group with those "magical" skills make it to the end.
 * to anon 154.35.47.59: anyone who says "play this or piss off" doesn't understand the game. i doubt anyone will be pointing at this and saying "this or nothing".
 * to NieA7: point taken on the MM, adjusting. the mending is for the orders only. take a look at the referenced build, it recommends at least one +15/-1 item, heal party and vampire is sufficent to take the pressure off the monk. well of blood has helped me survive more then one MM drop, but i'd not recomend using it with a live MM, i'll put that note in. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 09:53, 8 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Fair enough with the MM - it's not what I'd take but it's close enough that I think we're talking about style rather than substance. If you're taking Minions I suggest the monk takes Dwayna's Sorrow to cast on them. It's doubly good with Death Nova - if a minion has both and one gets shattered you either get an explosion or a group heal.


 * As for the Orders... not convinced. I've not played as orders very much so I could be wrong, I just feel that Pain + BiP is more versatile than Vampire + Ritual. OoV is good at healing when the rangers are at full health anyway, when they get hurt they tend to stop attacking and start running so they don't get any benefit from it. Anything that gets a weedy Orders necro close to something nasty seems like a bad plan. I'd also replace Breeze with Blood Renewal, Mending with Succour and the Well with Heal Other - if the MM goes down everybody should be legging it anyway, not hanging about in wells, and Heal Other is generally more useful in the Tombs than Healing Breeze (except for the MM) - it's a spike heal somewhere where people get spiked, and it can't be shattered. --NieA7 10:56, 8 August 2006 (CDT)
 * take a look at the referenced build. there is a long long discussion on breaze vs renewal. the wells are to keep the pets alive if the MM goes down (because they are now the only wall). i've played orders quite a bit down there, and i find this to be the safest combination. i play with 180 hp (that is, four runes), rarely have to cast Br at all, since the barragers are getting 19*6 every two seconds. with vampire, the monk is kinda bored. i'll admit that mending (+3) and breeze (+7) is overkill, but it means you never have to wait between orders for regenerating health. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 11:12, 8 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I've read it, it says "If you have 4 or 5 runes, and are in an area with enchantment striping, use Blood Renewal, as removing blood renewal provides a full heal." You're using 4 runes and the Tombs are crawling with enchantment strippers. Anyway, the monk shouldn't be bored, he should be there earning his share of the loot ;p --NieA7 11:22, 8 August 2006 (CDT)
 * this is obviously a "newbie friendly" orders build, because that 38% sacrifice from blood renewal takes some getting used to. so are you going to vote or poke me with technicalities all day? --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 11:38, 8 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I'm not going to vote unfavoured because it's basically OK, but if I think it can be made better I'm not going to vote favoured until it is or I'm satisfied with the counter arguments. As the orders build page seems to say what I've been saying up to now I'm not yet convinced about healing breeze et al, simple as that. --NieA7 12:52, 8 August 2006 (CDT)

Sarah, can I just take a minute to bow down and praise you? This page really needed the revamp. I was going to do it, I swear, but the cat needed her nails clipped, I was in the middle of Saltspray Beach, the car blew up (Ok, I don't have a car, blah...) and in general I was just too lazy. Thanks loads for doing this.

Looking at this with a Critical Eye (sorry, just had to put in the pun)... I like this. There's a few small things I'll debate with you, though. For starters, the rangers. I really like that build, but your suggestion of losing Troll Unguent for the spirits - I don't know about anyone else, but there's no way in hell I'm going into tombs without troll. And I play an A/R Critical Barrager, so I don't even get the most out of it. I tried it for a couple runs, bringing Critical Defenses instead, and it just didn't work. Not without a kickass monk with instincts so good that you could lose half the party and she would still be healing you all. I would suggest instead losing Distracting Shot. It is possible for one person to shut down a wurm with Savage Shot, so long as FW is up for the faster arrows. Bleeding caused by a Crit Barrager also helps if he has to solo it while everyone else is taking out mobs. (Again, I've done it :P) Also, if the ranger thinks they can handle the energy loss, sometimes it's good to bring Concussion Shot instead of Distracting Shot.

Unfortunately, I must agree with Anon 154.35.47.59 - people are going to, and indeed already do, say "this build or no build", even with people in their guild. (Try making an A/R and getting a group, for example.) And since a lot of people read guildwiki, we sort of have a responsibility to shut down that type of behavior and encourage an open mind. For that reason, I ask that a mention towards the A/R is placed with the R/Mo, instead of down at the bottom - if only because human nature makes it more likely that they'll just read the bit about the b/p and ignore the variant. For the same reason, a mention towards the fact that the monk secondary only affects Rebirth, which can be replaced relatively well with a res sig, would also be appreciated - and that the orders and MM can have any secondary and still work relatively well with their own self-healing. I guess this would mean that variants for an individual character would be mentioned alongside that character; major changes in the team (such as 5-man, winter, or monkless) would still be mentioned below.

The MM... Now here's something I have to disagree with NieA7 on. The MM should, until the first corpse, stay to the back. This immediately kills out the use of Rotting Flesh. (Don't get me wrong, it's very fun, but not good in this build - and isn't there a chance that the disease will spread to the human party and their pets, as well?) I would suggest Heal Area instead. Also, Minions should be gone for Fiends. I know people are going to say "but fiends aren't meat-shields!" You're right, they're not. That's why we make a note that Fiends is only used in those desperate in-combat situations where you're down to three minions and Horrors is recharging, or if you already have seven or eight horrors. At that point, the other guys are most likely right up next to the rangers anyway, so you need as much punch as you can get. And, quite honestly, a lvl 18 ranged minion is going to make a better meatshield than two lvl 13 melee minions. You don't bring lvl 13 horrors; why should you bring lvl 13 minions? The only advantage you get is two minions per corpse, but there's usually more than enough corpses anyway. I can see how some people would think that minion-bombing would make it worth it, but quite honestly that's just not something I can do. That's just me and my gameplay style, though (my "what's the point of a meatshield whose only point of existance is to run up and become a not-meatshield?" style). *Shrug* Maybe you want to put that as a variant.

Orders - Ah, yay, you put in Heal Party! Happy day. But what happened to Order of Pain? I've never seen a group go through that used an orders (ok, so orders isn't essential, but bear with me) that didn't use OoP. And looking through this, I'm seeing three non-essential skills - Mending, Awaken the Blood, and possibly Well of Blood. AtB I think is a nice edition, but there's some better skills out there that you can use instead. Mending... I'm sorry, again this is just me, but I'm so used to seeing that on noob wammos that I don't like it. >.< And Healing Breeze is better anyway, since Mending works best over long periods of time - something you won't have when the popups come. Well of Blood - I like the logic behind it, but let's be realistic. If you lose the MM, the whole party's screwed anyway. I've only heard of one run that finished after the MM left, and that was because the monk had an awesome spike heal/heal party build, got lots of help from the Orders with Succor, Blood Ritual, and Heal Party. Healing Breeze, since there's room, should stay - I would prefer it over AtB, since the orders should probably have a staff wrapping or off-hand that boosts Blood Magic anyway, or if they don't it's really no big deal. I would pefer to see Succor, Heal Area (amazing self-heal, and it helps the minions too if someone has to go afk for a minute or so), and OoP.

Monk - this is a good build. There's only one thing I don't like about it, and two things that I think should be mentioned as a variant. Signet of Devotion has a two second casting time, and by the time you finish casting that, you could have gotten off a Heal Party instead and saved someone else from being spiked. That's what I don't like; the variant is replacing Dwayna's Kiss or Signet of Rejuvenation with Heal Other. Yes, it takes five more energy, but it heals twice as much (unless the rangers - myself included - get more hexes and conditions than I actually notice), which means one less healing spell is needed on that person (which makes it effectively faster as well). Also, since Healing Breeze is just so good, I would say it should be included. If it gets shattered, a single dose of Heal Other or Dwayna's Kiss should take care of the shatter damage and the healing that would have happened if the breeze hadn't been shattered. (You may ask why bring it at all, then, if those two heal much more; the answer, in my experience, is for small heals, such as for the sacs from the MM and Orders. With 13 divine favor you heal enough to take care of current damage and help with future sacs.)

In summary, my suggestions are:

Rangers MM Orders Monk Overall
 * Change skill switch for rangers due to spirits from Troll to Distracting
 * Mention A/R variant
 * Mention Concussion Shot
 * Mention res sig instead of Rebirth if secondary is not monk, and that it still works
 * Switch Rotting Flesh for Heal Area
 * Switch Minions for Fiends
 * Mention that a change in secondary can be acceptable if Rebirth is switched for a res sig and Heal Area is switched for a self-heal (thus allowing BotM spammage)
 * Switch AtB, Well of Blood, and Mending for Succor, Heal Area, and Order of Pain
 * Mention non-monk secondary will still work as long as Rebirth is switched for a res sig and the orders brings a self-heal AS WELL AS keeping BR up on the monk, since he's not using Heal Party
 * Switch Signet of Devotion for Healing Breeze
 * Mention variant of switching Dwayna's Kiss or Signet of Rejuvenation for Heal Other
 * Praise Sarah for rewriting this
 * Yell at Armond for making so many complaints and tell him to go and actually test things :P

Don't get me wrong, I love this and I'm very, very, very happy that you revised it. I'm in your debt for that. But like all builds that need testing, there needs to be some changing. I'll post an approval after I try it out, but I don't have time at the moment (took too long typing this >.>). Armond 11:57, 8 August 2006 (CDT)


 * holy britanica, batman! let me step through these.
 * reguarding single skill variations, i don't think it's worth cataloging them, but i'll make a note at the top about massive variations and this not being the difintive build.
 * A/R Critical Barrager is covered in variants, but i will make a note at the top about variations.
 * Casting circle is outside aggro circle, and disease only spreads among creatures of the same species, so unless you've a grasp barraging for your team, you're safe from it. it will spread from Terrorweb Dryders to pet spiders, but that's the only instance i've seen.
 * already switched minions
 * for more information, see N/Mo Orders Necromancer
 * as NieA7 stated, full of enchantment shatterers. orders is far enough away to get away with it, but using it on a ranger is asking to get shattered.
 * signets are "free" heals, so less worries about energy management.
 * --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 12:26, 8 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Blow, that was a lot. About the MM, what I meant to say was that the MM should stay back until the first corpse, but after that has to stay within casting distance of the front line otherwise there won't be any targets for the animate spells (with longbows and suchlike this often means that the MM is the closest player to the action, unfortunately). I agree that Rotting Flesh is a waste of a slot (check out the discussion on N/any Dedicated Minion Master).
 * I'd also take Dark Bond instead of Heal Area and shift the points from Protection to blood with a minor rune - heal area's useful when out of combat but it's much more important to stay alive while you're in combat, and nothing does that for a MM like Dark Bond. Plus that allows you to concentrate all your skill points in Death and Soul Reaping, so you should never have to wait for the energy to create a minion.
 * Personally I take Vampiric Horrors rather than Fiends or Minions - with two recharge reducing items and Horrors you can keep up a more or less uninterrupted chain of fresh meat walls. The Vampiric Horrors allow for some healing, if you're under pressure there's always taste of death. Between fights I either rely on the monk, or alternatively spam BotM until I get low, then use Taste of Death on the Golem - if it dies I can raise another, if not I can go back to healing. Rinse and repeat as necessary. --NieA7 12:52, 8 August 2006 (CDT)
 * i never liked minions anyways, even less now with the minion cap. swapping for v.horror. i'll see about squeezing in dark bond... --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 16:05, 10 August 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm still against flesh golem and pro BiP for the MM :$ --Turaak 21:12, 29 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Really? When I play as MM in the tombs most my health goes towards Blood of the Master spamming, taking a 33% sac with me would be suicide. Plus the Flesh Golem is the best meat shield in the game. --NieA7 06:23, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Yup, how often do you notice the monk pinging their 4 energy out of 52? Not having energy is torture for a monk, also because people blame the monk when they die <_<! I also prefer the use of minions rather than fiends: MM is there to create a solid wall which the Grasps can't get past and fiends use range attacks which in my opinion are too close to the players. Minions can take 2/3 hits from a Grasp before dying and are very easily replaceable, and because they are melee they are right up there distracting the Grasps. --Turaak 07:31, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Depends how good the Orders Necro is usually. Blood is Power goes a lot further than Blood Ritual too, though without Order of the Vampire some of the Rangers whinge. I tend to use (Vampiric) Horrors rather than minions, I find them to be too squishy to keep back the tide for very long - it's hard to be sure but I reckon one horror goes further than two minions. --NieA7 11:11, 30 August 2006 (CDT)

Orders Necro-- re-opening discussion
It's hard to distill everything that was said in the previous section about the Orders necro build. But here is my two cents worth. I have played every role in the B/P team in Tomb Ruins runs multiple times, Orders more than any other role. The OLD guildwiki build for orders (OoP/OotV/Heal Area/BR/Succor/Rebirth plus two optional slots) works super well for me. Comments: 1. I still alternate OoP and OotV so as to keep an Order up almost 100% of the time. 2. A. Heal Area is perfect as a self-heal. I use 3 superior runes, and I can cast 3 orders and nearly be fully healed with one Heal Area. I see no need for ANY other heal, I don't need Blood Renewal with Heal Area. (Maybe you could make a case for Heal Party--in an optional slot.) 2. B. It is also perfect as a back-line caster heal. 2. C. It finally functions to help the MM keep his minions alive longer and/or with less energy and blood sacrifice in between battles. When you BR the MM, Heal Area his minions. 3. BR brings you too close to the action? I rarely suffer hits to health that I cannot self heal with one Heal Area. Get in, BR, get out, that's the ticket. 4. Where did Succor go in this latest build? LOL--all the talk about people 'swearing by the GuildWiki build' is just so much hot air in my experience. I swear by Succor, I use it on the monk ALL the time, and rarely--RARELY--do I have to BR the monk more than 2-3 times in an entire Tomb Ruins run. And without exception, when I am the monk, and I ask the Orders necro if he can run Succor on me, he says, "Wha--wha? What is Succor?" So 97% of Orders necros are not getting their info on the build from here (at least not the one that included Succor for so long). I have made dozens of converts to Succor by running on them when they didn't even know what it was. 5. This build doesn't even explain why Mending is in the build. What purpose could that serve? The monk has Healing Touch as a huge self-heal. If the Order is running Succor on the monk, the monk should have plenty of energy to spam spike heals for his team and himself. No big deal. So who needs Mending? (I think that's just 'Wammo-think' breaking out.) 6. Finally, I use Remove Hex and Smite Hex in my two optional slots (maybe Heal Party could find a place there). Since I usually communicate that fact to the monk, he can focus primarily on healing, and I find it takes some pressure off the monk making the team more effective. Queen of Spades 17:56, 26 September 2006 (CDT)
 * How about something slightly different with the idea being there is no need for healing prayers. It still has Well for rare cases where the Minion Master disconnects, Succor and BR for the monk, Order of the Vampire, an optional slot for say, OoP for alternation, a self heal in Blood Renewal, and Rebirth for those pesky situations, where, you know, you're completely screwed. This allows for 15 in Soul Reaping and 16 in Blood, for some serious energy gain and serious bleeding.  --Mgrinshpon 13:05, 5 October 2006 (CDT)

messing with tested builds
ok, this has been throughly messed with since vetting, i'm going to clean it up, repolish it and put it back out for testing again. this should be fairly straight-forward, just a formality really. --Honorable Sarah 16:23, 7 August 2006 (CDT)
 * all better, archived talk and restarted votes. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 17:22, 7 August 2006 (CDT)
 * because people are complaining about "all the magic going out of the world", i've linked the old build as a sub-article. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 13:03, 8 August 2006 (CDT)

Critical Barrager: Is it actually worth it?
A balanced arguement for and against the use of Critical Barragers (A/R) in the Tombs of Primeval King's Underworld.

It can take me, on my A/R upto half an hour to find someone who has heard of a critical barrager and allows me into their team, then convincing everyone else in the team I am a barrager; if I try and start a team it can take a lot longer. To be honest, I'm the only Critical barrager I have ever seen there, ever.

Edit: As of right now, I have PMed the leaders of 5 groups saying I am a critical barrager, they invite me, then kick me because I'm an assassin. If I was on my ranger, would be easy as pie to get a group.

Ok so now have a team, it can take anywhere from 10 minutes to maybe an hour with an A/R. Now you have to spend 90 minutes in the UW. 2 Hours without a break? I can just about manage 90 minutes.

The time factor is slightly less important, there is quite a lot of people who can play for hours non stop.

Ranger armour has +30 AL against elemental attacks right? On my ranger the meteor showers caused by the Terrorweb Dryders hit 90. On my assassin they hit 130.

Assassin's have no expertise skill, so they cannot blind the Grasping Ghouls with throw dirt, it lasts 3 seconds. Hardly long enough. I took Caltrops with me on one occasion to see if crippling would help me escape. Alas, with only half an agro circle radius, it was inconvienant and wasn't worth it.

So, if it is still considered viable for an over streched monk to heal someone with less elemental armour and only damage dealing, no support, and rarely a spirit, yet alone Winnowing; here is my build which I have settled on.


 * I find A/R to be more fun. ^^; We should do tombs together some time. Though I don't understand what you mean by spending 90 minutes in UW; generally my team can get the whole thing done in about that time, less if there's more than one A/R. (People say that the bleeding doesn't stack so there shouldn't be more than one A/R, but it renews and the bonus damage is enough of a justification in my mind anyway.) And if you want to convince someone that you're a barrager, tell them, and then ping your bow. That's what I do, anyway. Armond 21:35, 15 August 2006 (CDT)

I have gone through all the same frustration with getting a group and getting respect as the OP of this section describes. I find a simple solution: start your OWN B/P group as an A/R Crit Barrager/Pet (C/B/P). Kick the moaners, most will leave and save you the trouble. Others will listen. I have been complimented repeatedly on my contribution to the team, including monks saying their healing has been less hectic. One recently told me they didn't recall casting more than a couple of heals my way during the run. (And I have completed multiple runs as a C/B/P, even with another C/B/P on the same team.)

On the other hand, maybe you are playing the C/B/P role incorrectly (with incorrect build or tactics). Over and over I find that on near-party-wipes, I am the last B/P standing. I attribute that to the wonderful effectiveness of Way of Perfection for self-healing. I never take Critical Defenses or Shadow Refuge, and I am getting anywhere from 22HP to 27HP free with each critical hit--what more do you need? (Maybe you need to learn where to stand when Barraging, I don't know.) Queen of Spades 17:22, 26 September 2006 (CDT)

Very interesting - this mirrors a similar discussion of similar problems with the tankmaster ranger build. Lack of credibility. --Jawn Sno 13:07, 11 December 2006 (CST)

Attributes

 * Critical Strikes: 13 (12+1)
 * Marksmanship: 12 (12)
 * Beast Mastery: 3 (3)

I keep HP as high as possible, I use a Short Bow for it's speed when my pet dies because of the delay in barrage, or when I am out of energy (rarely), so it gives me energy for every critical hit. There is no self healing on that build...and the only way I can use Way of Perfection or Troll Unguent is if I take attribs off Marksmanship or Critical Strikes. (With rank 3 Wilderness Survival Troll Unguent heals for +4, combined with casting time and healing, I don't consider it worth it.) I have rank 3 in Beast Mastery because of the 6 spare attribute points and it resurrects my pet with slightly higher hitpoints. ^_^

About the selfhealing of my build, it is not needed for me. Even though I have less armour (kind-of), kiting and/or critical defences can make my assassin/ranger hard to kill.

Any feedback on this? Turaak 10:14, 15 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Flatbows have the same speed as a shortbow, with the range of a longbow, but have a much higher arch, but this is not an issue in PvE. take a look at A/R Critical Barrager --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 10:38, 15 August 2006 (CDT)


 * A flatbow is huge though, Shortbow looks better ^_^ Turaak 11:07, 15 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Please don't comment just about the build, but about both articles I wrote on this subject. ^_^ Turaak 16:18, 15 August 2006 (CDT)


 * For a bit of healing, I switch Savage Shot or Critical Defenses for Shadow Refuge. (Usually Critical Defenses; I'm more of a healing than a prot guy, but that's personal preferance. My reasoning over Savage is that if I'm the only guy with an interrupt we're screwed anyway, so it shouldn't make much difference.) My attributes are as follows:


 * Critical Strikes: 13 (9+3+1)
 * Marksmanship: 12 (12)
 * Shadow Arts: 10 (9+1)
 * Beast Mastery: 3 (3)

In that way, I get to heal myself pretty well (I'm generally attacking again by the time Shadow Refuge ends, so I get that bonus health too) since I can boost Shadow Arts higher than Wilderness Survival for Troll Unguent. Can't say too much more except that in a half-decent group it works, as the monsters are focusing on the minions anyway... If some idiot ranger goes out into the front, pulls a few, realizes what he's done, and runs back, I generally make my next couple shots aim near him anyway (if I miss it's not that big a deal, bleeding is awesome no matter who it's on >.>) and everyone else is screwed as well as myself. As for getting hit by fire damage, well, I've developed a sixth sense for avoiding them. :P And even if I do get stuck, the monks I've gone with don't seem to mind the extra couple dozen damage - indeed, when I monk, it's very easy for me to overheal people (think Heal Other with 16 healing and 13 favor when the other guy's down about 150 health).


 * I want it known for the record that just to prove Turaak wrong I ran my crit barrager away from the monk chasing a dryder around a corner while running past another three dryders, getting hit by two Meteor Showers, two Immolulates, and a Meteor where the monk couldn't reach me, and survived on Shadow Refuge and Critical Defenses. (Actually, I'm not even sure if I used Critical Defenses now that I think about it.) As revenge, she and the monk proceeded to Englishify me. -_- I'm going to go dig out my Harry Potter books now... --Armond Warblade (talk) 18:45, 16 August 2006 (CDT)


 * LOL! I was with you then, and you shouldn't have done it :P The fact still remains, assassin's have minus 30 AL against elemental damage. --Turaak 21:20, 16 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Minus another fifteen compared to you since I have the bonus energy armor and you have the bonus armor while attacking :P But hey I survived so I'm not complaining. And someone fix that Immolulate wiki thing, I'm too lazy to look up the correct spelling. --Armond Warblade (talk) 11:08, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

I have been tweaking my build a bit:


 * 1


 * 2

Caltrops can be a really good skill when people know what it does and move away when I use it.

Return is amazing for luring pop-ups etc. You can run in there, pop them up, teleport out back to the line of rangers and it also cipples the popups so you have longer time to get the minions in front and put a few more barrages in there. <-- I think return is a must have on any Crit Barrager/Pet build.

Shadow Refuge for a bit of healing. (Can get +6 health regen, counters a bout of being on fire).

Sharpen Daggers is also very useful, bleeding on monsters you wouldn't have thought had flesh is a big plus.

--Turaak 07:40, 30 August 2006 (CDT) (Someone remind me to put this in all the time >.<)


 * I'm agreeing with you on the bleeding bit. You wouldn't believe me if I told you how many Wurms I've solo'd with sharpen, eye, and savage shot while everyone else deals with a mob or two. Bleeding goes a long way when it's constantly applied.


 * I don't like your idea of switching out Sharpen for Caltrops - I would lose Savage or maybe Shadow, since Crit Barragers' main damage is from the bleeding. We do less damage with our bows, even counting the extra damage from the constant crits, than a guy with 16 marksmanship, so to make up with it we cause a constant degen (since when you've got four or five guys on one target that guy's health looks more like he has 24-ish degen than he's taking little bits of damage from a lot of guys).


 * Should we make an article-thing on the A/R for tombs, specifically? --Armond Warblade (talk) 04:43, 2 September 2006 (CDT) (<-- Also trying to remember to put in the signature every time)


 * Edit: Noticed that you put in that Legend of Zelda abreviation for winn :P


 * Legend of Zelda?? Lol :P No to the seperate article, just a bit more recognition in this article would be nice. And I use my 1.1 build, the 1.2 really didn't work. --Turaak 07:32, 3 September 2006 (CDT)


 * LoZ: The Wind Waker (WW). And yeah, I was wondering what you were doing caltropsing random grasps >.> --Armond Warblade (talk) 11:20, 10 September 2006 (CDT)

Ideal Equipment
Either I missed it or I see no mention beyond Drakescale armor for ideal equipment for many of the roles. As each ranger is barraging should a certain bow type be used as a preferred item or does it not matter that much? I've tried Short, Long, Recurve, and Hornbow types and found them all to work though Hornbows tend to refire perfectly with the recharge of Barrage though Recurve helps the interrupting barragers. Should a Vamp String be used (combo with a Hornbow for more damage?)? Obviously an elemental string is out of the question to take advantage of orders and such but I see no mention of that either. A zealous string could be used for the Tiger's Fury variant to help with energy management. Frostbound armor can be used for the Winter variant and so on. Equipment may be worth a mention in general or at least a few of those that apply to the variant builds to help maximize them as this is considered a speed build for tombs. Just my thoughts. What say you?--Vallen Frostweaver 12:00, 7 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I've seen vamp bow strings all over the place, as the extra damage is quite deadly over three or four grasps (I personally don't like the idea of wielding a weapon that kills you, but it's proven useful for when people get stuck in stairs - suicide with vamp and get rebirthed). Other people like sundering for the extra damage (not all that much if you ask me). The sufix is generally different for different playing styles, though noone can deny the usefulness of a fortitude or marksmanship sufix.


 * As for the type of bow... Quite honestly, I don't think it really matters. Each has their own advantages. The shortbow has the fastest fire rate and is the most accurate (very handy for when Barrage bugs), the longbow is obviously for pulling (although, admittedly, that can be done with the agro circle - I've pulled as the monk many times XD), hornbow has the ideal recharge time (best after you've practiced spamming barrage and when you know you won't lag), and the recurve bow is good with interrupting.


 * My R/Mo (ok, currently a lvl 3 R >.>) hasn't gotten to tombs yet, so I can't tell you what's good with that version of the B/P, but my A/R crit barrager uses a Zealous Jade Longbow of Fortitude (15^50, +29), and I'm happy with that. I debated getting a marksmanship version, but since my armor is the bonus energy kind instead of the bonus armor while attacking, the extra health is very helpful. --Armond Warblade (talk) 11:20, 10 September 2006 (CDT)
 * After doing research myself (including use of) and asking other Rangers what works best I've found that a Vampiric Hornbow-type-bow of Marksmanship (all max stats with +15% when health >50% and customized) is the preferred and ideal weapon unless pulling - where a Flatbow using the same mods would be preferred (as Fav Winds lowers the arc). I tend to agree with this as the extra health/armor from a grip won't make much difference with the minions/pets holding the foes back and the +1 Marksmanship adds to damage on occasion making it preferred.  The Vampiric string adds 5 unmodified damage per arrow hit and the degen can easily be countered with Troll Unguent on occasion or the monk tossing a heal rarely in your direction.  A horbow's refire rate fits perfect with the recharge of Barrage and adds a further 10% AP to each arrow.  I've found my damage drastically increase from this bow from my usual Sundering Recurve.  I would definitely suggest Razortoungue's Recurve minimum and a self made/bought/found Vampiric Hornbow-type-bow of Marksmanship as the true bow to use for Barrage/Pet runs through the Tomb ruins unless running a non-standard B/P build.--Vallen Frostweaver 11:37, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

Plus Nuker Team Build
Having tested this set up at least 20 times (with PUG and Guild groups), this set-up has never failed yet (touch wood!), though pepole are initally worried about the Nuker, the extra damage dealt is definatly a big bonus.

ToPK Nuker Build


 * Fire Magic: 16 (12+3+1)
 * Energy Storage: 15 (12+3)
 * Protection Prayers: 3 (3)

Replace one of the rangers with the Ele and set off! I equip the ele with Pyromancer armour and a Rago's Flame Staff (well, the modified collecter equivilant).

The fire spells (with the exception of Fireball), don't require line-of-sight, so using any available cover helps. Position yourself near the necros and make sure you maintain EA and AoR at all times. Meteor Shower should definatly used for the Siege Wurms on the latter 2 stages, the interupt is invaluble. R'sI and BoF are the 2 group damage dealers, with the enemy tending to group when attacking the pets and minions. Fireball can also be used to provide extra fire support. Immolate is the single enemy attack spell, with the aim of droppoing them a.s.a.p. SniperAngel 18:29, 9 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I want to try this. Wikified the flame staff so people like me who haven't memorized all the greens yet can see it, hope you don't mind. --Armond Warblade (talk) 11:20, 10 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Edit: Looking through, I'm seeing a couple things I don't like, but it's just my playing style...


 * 15 energy storage? That's a good 45-70 health wasted... I like having a major energy storage rune, since you really don't need *that* much energy.
 * Why the staff wrapping of enchanting? With 12 energy storage you have plenty of time to put ES and AoR back up, and much more with 14-15 storage. I'd rather bring a wrapping of fire magic.
 * Maybe I'm missing something, but EA just looks like all the elemental attunements rolled into one... So why not bring Mind Burn instead of Immolate and Fire Attunement instead of ES?
 * Again, just my play style and maybe this doesn't quite work in tombs, but answers would be nice.. --Armond Warblade (talk) 11:29, 10 September 2006 (CDT)

Comment: I find EA more useful as it provides 50% of casting energy, not 30%. But I might try the Mind Burn/Fire Attunement combo next time. Also, with the health issue, I've been on runs, where the only serious damage i've taken is from The Darkness' at the end, so health amount is not a key feature of the build. SniperAngel 10:30, 11 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Aha, 50% instead of 30%... Considering going out and randomly capping that now... --Armond Warblade (talk) 20:43, 12 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Breath of Fire causes AoE scatter doesn't it? Wouldn't this then be contradictory to the Rangers who need grouped enemies for Barrage?  Plus a lot of this damage is modifiable by armor thus making it less effective (burning is an exception of course).  I've tried a variant of this before as a R/E (I have a lot of experience like this actually) and found that I was doing a lot of more damage with Barrage since the group was so specialized around it (plus most of it's damage is armor ignoring) and I was able to have defense skills as well.  Fire damage won't benefit from orders castings or supply extra corpses for minions.  Overall, it's a nice idea for a non BP Tombs group (especially the option to take cover and cast without line of sight is so nice) but I don't think it fits right in a Barrage/Pet group as it uses neither and doesn't compliment the group build based on these 2 items IMO.--Vallen Frostweaver 06:36, 11 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Comment: I usually use Breath of Fire after using Rodgort's Invocation, by which point, I myself, have dealt around 85 damage plus 1 or 2 seconds of burning. The rangers have been barraging for the casting time aswell, meaning by the time the enemy scatter, they are virtually dead and easily finished off. But your point is worth noting, so as not to disrupt the rest of the rangers. SniperAngel 10:30, 11 September 2006 (CDT)

Hmm. Maybe not a nuker due to the AoE over time stuff, but I bet a good Hydromancer could help. Skill bar would look something like this (E/Me, 12 + 1 + 3 Water Magic, 11 + 1 Energy Storage, 6 Inspiration Magic):

Never actually tried this so I don't know if it'd work. They're all pretty hefty-costing spells so the Order would have to battery for two, but there's some good area of effect damage there, the slowdown from Deep Freeze and Ice Spikes and the -hit from Blurred Vision could be kept up constantly, and the Ward would be very useful against both Grasps and Dryders. Vapor Blade would be very handy to finish off any rogue Grasps that get through the minions. On the down side there's no res, which could lead to some ugly moments (maybe drop one of the energy managements), and spell recharge times are quite hefty (two 20/20 items would be a very good idea. A 15/-1 wand would probably work well). I imagine the maths would show that it can't out damage another Ranger, but the slowdown would lead to greater clustering, increasing the effectiveness of the other barragers, while the ward and Blurred Vision would increase survivability of party members and minons. Any experienced elementalists care to comment? --NieA7 07:00, 11 September 2006 (CDT)
 * This seems better to compliment the Barrage/Pet team but there are a few points I should mention.
 * I'm not sure about Blurred Vision but if it acts like blindness then it should help, if not then the enemies will still strike through it as they cannot miss with the Fingers of Chaos skill (though blocking works like Whirling Defense, etc.). So I think this may need a test to see if it helps.
 * Deep Freeze is an excellent skill as it effects an area and slows for 10 seconds regardless of ranks. A R/E with a glyh could cast this to similar effect.  Perhaps adding in a spell copier (Echo, etc.) would make this better for a E/Me to make multiple uses and add damage where a R/E barrager would only slow the targets most likely.
 * Ice Spikes seems like a good follow up to Deep Freeze or to hit those that may have gotten out of the area of effect if not a follow up skill.
 * Vapor Blade is useful only to spike kill a foe so perhaps this one can be switched out.
 * Water Attunement makes sense but enchantments are removed now and again - a glyph may be better used but maybe not.
 * Channeling is assuming you have enemies close enough to get energy from and a glyph may be a better choice though it is a nice cover enchant if taking water attunement.
 * Glyh of concentration is nice but you can't benefit from other glyphs. Take it if no other glyphs will be used.  Otherwise, a memser anti interrupt stance may be better if at all (can't be interrupted if you aren't being hit - meaning in the back).
 * Ward against Harm is nice as well but I doubt it'll find that much use as the pets and minions should be adequate. A better elite may be Elemental Attunement or Glyph of Energy.
 * Add ons - Perhaps adding an Earth skill - Ward Against Foes - may help as well for slowing and no ranks are needed to get an 8 second effect though you have to get closer to make use of it - perhaps for a puller to bring along (cast then aggro then retreat drawing the mob through the ward area allowing a good escape and minions to advance.


 * A typical BP group uses Fav. Winds and Winnowing with an interrupt or two. One ranger could easily bring a Glyph of Lesser Energy and use Deep Freeze to slow the initial rush of mobs or alternately the puller could use the Ward tactic and neither would require any ranks in water to use and still allow them to Barrage as before sacrificing 1-2 skills.  You have brought up some nice ideas to add to a Ranger/Ele so far (IMO) but I still don't see a Nuker being as effective unless they can pull off constant Deep Freezes (which may be possible w/ Arcane Echo & Echo, etc.) I doubt they will help as much as you lose a pet for blocking/corpse making and the damage from barrage (plus orders & spirit add on damage).  Keep them coming though as I think you are on to something.--Vallen Frostweaver 11:28, 11 September 2006 (CDT)


 * (I indented your post a bit so the flow is easier to follow, hope you don't mind). It was just a theoretical build I put together by looking at some skills, but it seems like there might be something worth pursuing in there somewhere. Thanks for the feedback :) I agree a Ranger could make good use of Deep Freeze, but I find B/P groups to be a bit elitist in practice - the more variations with different primary professions the better (so long as they actually work, of course). In reply to your points:
 * Not sure how Blurred Vision would work with Finger of Chaos, but even if it did ignore it it's still only hurt Rangers - I was thinking in terms of preserving the minions/pets a bit longer
 * Reckon Deep Freeze would go down a treat on anybody, now I've thought of it I'm surprised I've not seen people use it before
 * Ditto.
 * I think it'd be useful for when a Grasp gets through and starts gutting the monk and Necros, but there are probably better skills out there. Water Trident might be an option for sustained, cheap damage, though it'd eat up the elite slot.
 * I use Dark Bond all the time - if the Orders Necro is doing their job then chances are it'd be the Order enchantment that gets stripped rather than this. It's certainly an issue though, as I do lose DB from time to time.
 * Wasn't sure about Channeling either, I was trying to quickly come up with a good energy management solution. There's almost certainly something better out there.
 * There's loads of interrupts in the Tombs so Mantra of Concentration probably wouldn't help. I imagine Mantra of Resolve would eat a lot of energy at a low level of Inspiration, hence my choice of the Glyph - cheap, stops all interrupts for one spell, spammable. The spells have a long recharge anyway. It is a shame it precludes other Glyphs though - Mantra of Resolve may well turn out to be a possibility.
 * Wasn't too sure about the ward, but when I saw the extra armour against fire I remmebered all the times I've nearly wiped on level 2 with the Dryder corridor...
 * How about this for a second draft?




 * Use Power Drain and Auspicious Incantation as energy management - copy Deep Freeze with Arcane Echo, then use AI on the echoed copy. This, combined with Ice Spikes, should mean you can constantly keep the -66% move speed on nasties. Water Trident's there for the damage, spammability and knockdowns. I'm really not sure if this would play better as a primary Mesmer (like Me/E Flashfire) with 11 + 1 + 3 Fast Casting, 12 Water Magic and 6 + 1 Inspiration Magic (using a +15/-1 wand and Flint's Artifact), or as a primary Elementalist with 11 + 1 + 3 Water Magic, 11 + 1 Energy Storage and 8 Inspiration Magic. If the Orders could be persuaded to battery for this as well as the Monk then the Mesmer would probably be a better choice I reckon, but as I say this is all theoretical at this point. The optional slot could be used for a res signet or one of the anti-interrupt mantra's - Concentration for a primary Mes, Resolve for a primary Ele. --NieA7 15:38, 11 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I like all the ideas, will go fishing around for my own idea of an ele build here... --Armond Warblade (talk) 20:43, 12 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm bowing out for now. It's getting above my head (never played a primary Ele) now though I like several of the ideas.  I may try out the R/E variant with a ward or deep freeze and let you know if that works better with the other BP-ers than just another interrupt and throw dirt too.--Vallen Frostweaver 06:56, 13 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I've never played as a primary ele either, but one can dream ;) --NieA7 16:51, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

Ok, my turn to try a build.


 * Air Magic: 16 (12+3+1)
 * Energy Storage: 12 (10+2)
 * Inspiration Magic: 8 (8)

Air Attunement and Auspicious Incantation for energy management, cover it with AoR, echo Mind Shock for damage. When exhaustion gets you down switch to Lightning Orb. When Grasps charge, hit them with Blinding Flash and Enervating Charge to let the minions, pets, and occasional tanking ranger survive longer. Simple. Only thing I'm worried about is the semi-low energy storage... Suppose I could put in a sup energy storage rune.

Alternative: Switch out Auspicious Incantation for Spirit of Failure. Cast Spirit of Failure and Blinding Flash on the same Grasp and watch the AI provide you with a bunch of energy. --Armond Warblade (talk) 21:24, 15 September 2006 (CDT)

Backfire Barrager Variant
What do you think of this? I’ve about had enough of those Dryders and Dream Riders myself… Ranger/Mesmer

Use Barrage and Distracting Shot as usual. Whirling Defenses in an emergency. Backfire on any casters (Terrorweb Dryders, Banished Dream Riders, Scythe of Chaos, the Darkness) and follow on another caster with Guilt for energy back and an almost instant interrupt. Should help to take out the backline casters faster as they don't always group up, are usually the last to go down, and perhaps prevent a spell as well (like those nasty Energy Surges or Meteor Showers). Probably uses Backfire & Guilt once per group of enemies due to longer recharge times, more for a longer battle. Continue Barraging/Distracting as needed.--Vallen Frostweaver 11:26, 13 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Druids Armor Required and +5 energy bow preferred
 * Marksmanship 14 (+3 rune, +1 mask, 10 ranks)
 * Expertise 9 (+1 rune, 8 ranks)
 * Domination 12


 * I've yet to get my Ranger as far as the Tombs, but if you're casting spells doesn't that mean you're automatically within shortbow range? I mean nothing wrong with shortbows, it's just that I would've thought that was a bit close for comfort. What kind of bows do BP rangers use anyway? Should there be a note in the article as to what equipment is ideal? --NieA7 16:55, 13 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Funny you should mention that. Scroll up and you'll find the answers to your questions under 'Ideal Equipment'.  And no, casting is at recurve/hornbow range.  Shortbow is considerably closer.  A spell can be cast at the outside edge of the aggro bubble and if done properly won't aggro a target until the spell is cast on them (unless another player/minion aggros them first).  Also, in B/P groups there is a lot of targets (minions and pets) running interference as well as a bunch of rangers, necros, and a monk that are probably in the same range as you.  In effect, casting range shouldn't be an aggro problem and may actually help in some cases as there is no modifier for height for spells allowing you to be further from some targets in some cases or even cast through walls which may end up making you safer in the long run.  When you get to Tombs I suggest going on a run with a BP group at least 3 times (successfully) and you should have the jist of it by then and be able to draw many conclusions as to what might or might not work properly.  I have gone on at least 30 runs so far and am trying to refine my ranger further but also seek out alternative strategies to become more effective thus speeding things up.--Vallen Frostweaver 08:14, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I've been on about 25ish runs as a Necro, haven't paid much attention to the rangers over them being squishy things that don't res pets often. As for range I thought Shortbow and spell was about 1.05 aggro while Horn/Recurve Bow was about 1.4 aggro. The range article agrees with you but the radar range image agrees with me. I've noticed that if I use a skill against an out of range enemy with a longbow my ranger will run to about 1.05 aggro before attacking, so a similar thing may happen with spells targetted at an enemy out of range. Guess I need to test it a bit. --NieA7 08:52, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I'll check into what you are saying. Funny also as I find Necros to be sqishy things that keep dieing after they get a full bunch of minions up or bring life siphon instead off any orders.  You had to see that one coming after a comment like that. :p All sarcasm aside (seriously, I'm just playing with you - no offense meant), you had to notice how annoying all those casters are in there.  Being a Ranger I notice the frequency of spells as I need to interrupt them as often as possible so perhaps you weren't watching as closely as I have since you have orders or minions to take care of.  Those Dryders are casting a sell every 1-2 seconds and the Dream Riders are doing the same.  I see no reason why I can't Backfire one and let it kill itself while barraging the Grasps.  That's the whole point of it is to create faster kills and the more enemies dead the less damage coming your way and teh faster you move.  Let me know what you think and I'll get back to you on your range discussiong.--Vallen Frostweaver 10:12, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I've found that for a shortbow, the maximum range on level ground is where the far end of the monster's dot is touching the inside of my agro bubble. For a longbow (and spells, tested many times on my ele), it's just the opposite - the close end of its dot touches the outside of my agro bubble.
 * Only thing I don't like about this build is the lack of self-heals... To be honest, unless the monk is someone I know, I'm inclined to bring Troll Unguent (or, since I play an A/R, Shadow Refuge) just to be safe. Since my ranger primary isn't at tombs yet I don't know exactly how much Whirling makes up for that, but I personally would play the "drop the interrupt for the heal" variation.
 * I like this idea. It's been a while since I've been to tombs, but are there any mobs with only one caster (thus preventing the backfire-guilt combo)? --Armond Warblade (talk) 08:55, 15 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Self heals can be negotiated with a Vamp bow switch when barraging or the use of Whirling if you are too far entrenched in enemy lines to prevent damage. Many BP ranger builds do not include heals as the minions/pets should take care of damage control and monks take care of oopses.  I've recently been playing without a heal now being more experienced and had no problems provided people in the group don't go stupid crazy.  And as a side note, Whirling has saved my hide so many times and allowed me to tank when pets/minions are down or the necro dies in a few rare occurances when the mob charges through our lines.  Also, most mobs will have 1~2 dryders, 1~2 scythes, 1~2 dream riders and 2~3 grasps but the mob culture ranges considerably.  Most have 2 or more casters but if not then use barrage only with distract if you can.  Just recently I found something better though.  I'll post that next.--Vallen Frostweaver 09:49, 15 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Dur, Fingers of Chaos pwns Whirling Defense. How did we not see that? --Armond Warblade (talk) 17:17, 9 April 2007 (CDT)

R/Rt Splinter Destruction Barrager
Check out this new build I modified from the B/P team build ranger: R/Rt Splinter Destruction Barrager Please post comments on the discussion page. I found this build very useful and have played it to great effect.--Vallen Frostweaver 13:12, 15 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Don't you run low on energy with that? 69.109.123.109 20:20, 15 September 2006 (CDT)
 * No. You regen 1 energy every second as a ranger and you have to wait 5 seconds before you can cast Splinter Weapon again.  It's not that expensive - only 5 energy and you only uise it if you have the correct targets.--Vallen Frostweaver 00:08, 16 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Fun. Don't see what's not to like, then. --Armond Warblade (talk) 17:26, 16 September 2006 (CDT)

R/Rt
Maybe you can mention a ranger variant with secondary proffesion ritualist. R/Rt can take recuperation instead fw/ww, flesh of my flesh instead rebirth and any skill for self healing instead troll urguent. I am usualy going with exp. 11, bm 4, 16 marksmanship and 8 restoration. My spirit offer +2 regen to all alies (include minions and pets) and i can res relatively safely during a fight.
 * I would have to agree. It seems I'm starting to see more and more x/Rt in Tombs groups now and for different reasons.  With my recent obsession with offensive tombs builds I'm finding more and more B/P groups are being less and less successful.  While this may drive the economy for greens from there I still hate going halfway through to fail because the monk or the minion master lags out in the middle of a bad pull, etc.  The R/Rt may be able to add good defense as well to help the group survive and I agree perhaps just a mention of Ritualist (and perhas a few skills to highlight) should help illuminate the usefullness in a B/P group.--Vallen Frostweaver 06:47, 18 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Perhaps something like this for the article under variants:

R/Rt Variant:

There are two versions of the R/Rt that can be of use replacing one to two of the usual Ranger Pet/Barragers while they still keep the basic skills of Barrage, Comfort Animal, and Charm Animal and are able to take advantage of the cost reduction on Binding Rituals from ranks in Expertise. Both variants can make use of spirits to help body block and make use of one of the reuseable ressurrection skills offered by the Ritualist profession (most common is Flesh of My Flesh). The first variant uses Destruction and Splinter Weapon from the Channeling line to add area damage to your own and others attacks on grouped enemies. The second uses Recuperation and Life from the Restoration line to add a large area constant healing ability to your party, pets, and minions.

See Also: R/Rt Splinter Destruction Barrager

I would like more opinions before adding this above variant to the main article page.--Vallen Frostweaver 09:08, 18 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Well, no opinions so I added. If you don't like it, let me know.[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  13:14, 17 October 2006 (CDT)

Recent Update (1/19/07) I've tried the Splinter/Destruction one again with the new changes to Splinter Weapon and let me tell you it is excellent. I've been hitting a group for over 500 damage when grouped and under Splinter Weapon as well as been able to cast on my entire group a few times before a pull only to see the entire enemy mob fall on the first barrage. Also, playing as a Life/Recuperation ranger the Life spirit heals for more than before (up to 140 health at 12) and 10 seconds sooner making it an excellent skill buff as well. If these changes last, then I see these two builds being more common than before.--  Vallen Frostweaver  08:31, 22 January 2007 (CST)
 * Yea, I'm loving it too :o) I'm putting serpents quickness in instead of a spirit for some extra juicey splinter/barrage action :o) --JP 19:05, 7 February 2007 (CST)

What the new variant build for Team - Barrage/Pet (Tomb Ruins) Rangers should be?
I've been playing as a B/P Ranger for a while now and started messing with the stats and skills. Often my pet would die and cause a massive blackout of my skills that wouldn't allow the use of Barrage - the core of the build - or any other skills and at this point the Grasps are usually charging through since the pet(s) is/are dead and you need access to skills unless you start running away. In the end I found a tradeoff that seems to work much better than the usual default on the article page.

Here's what I have found to be much more effective/suggested changes (please note: skill changes, stat changes, and FW variant change):
 * Barrage Rangers
 * Variations:
 * At least one ranger must carry Favorable Winds (FW). A FW Barrager should replace Troll Unguent with Favorable Winds, and move all points from Wilderness Survival into Marksmanship.
 * At least one ranger must carry Winnowing (WW/Winn). A Winnowing Barrager should replace Troll Unguent with Winnowing.
 * At least one ranger must carry Favorable Winds (FW). A FW Barrager should replace Troll Unguent with Favorable Winds, and move all points from Wilderness Survival into Marksmanship.
 * At least one ranger must carry Winnowing (WW/Winn). A Winnowing Barrager should replace Troll Unguent with Winnowing.

My analysis: The pets tank so much better with the use of CoP and PP. I've seen my pet hold off half a dozen Grasps when the minion master dropped - long enough for the group to take them out before it died (their pets were still dead) and I then ressed it quick to continue tanking. In summary, there is a single target damage add on from PP (not to mention the pet heals itself), added tanking, considerably less blackout time (1~2 seconds total) allowing the use of skills when you need them (Barrage, etc), the res-ability of the pet without instant death as it will have ~50% health upon being ressed, and the unchanged effects of the orders bonus on Barrage (except for more frequent use of Barrage due to less blackout). Pets will still die now and again and the corpses from the enemies and occasional pet deaths will be more than enough for the MM to create a good army. You will still have one interrupt minimum and with 5 Rangers that shold be more than enough interrupts to take out any importanat spells/skills. And lastly, you have a better chance of survival if the MM drops with the pets being able to tank better.

I would like to suggest this be a change to the default with the current default being mentioned as the variant. Please try it before you knock it. What are your opinions on this?--Vallen Frostweaver 11:23, 27 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I haven't seen any other Ranger's using this build so I think the act of calling it the new "default" build would be both innaccurate and wrong. If you would like to include this on the main build page, perhaps mention it as a variant or give it its own article and metnion it in the "See Also" section. -- Jyro X [[Image:Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|25px]] (talk • contribs) 12:01, 27 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I see your method of thinking and I wasn't implying that this is what I see commonly in the tombs runs (though I have seen it before and coordinated to great success). I just think it is a better build to start with than that listed on the article page (after using almost all the variants and original builds).  Just because a build may be popular doesn't mean it then must go on wiki as the best build when there is a variant that performs better.  If it is a variant that performs better than the original, then I think the article build should be about the better performer with the original listed as a variant.
 * There already is a variant for bringing pets with higher ranks of Beast Mastery (only 9 though) that uses blood wells and the like (see Minionless build on article page) and I believe that my above suggestion would be voted as the same variant for those that aren't seeing what I am trying to communicate. Too many people have IWAY-ed or set zero in Beast Mastery +Charm Animal to have any idea of how useful a pet combo can be if attributes and skills are used in coordination with the team as well as taking advantage of the occasional pet corpse.  I've changed this topic title to better reflect my suggestion.  Thanks for your input.--Vallen Frostweaver 12:28, 27 September 2006 (CDT)
 * The pets are corpses for the Minion Master to firstly, get his flesh golem out, and then, get his vampiric horrors running to cover the sac costs for BotM, and then, to get Horrors running, to form the expendable meat shield. A tanking pet is not a good one for the Minion Master. On a side note, I play as MM or Orders most of the time, so this is from personal experiance, not someone telling me. I love weak pets for that reason. Terrorweb Dryders demolish minions. --Mgrinshpon 09:03, 6 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I play as the MM mostly, to be honest I wouldn't have trouble with strong pets so long as lots of nasties were dying. The minions are meant to hold the tide back, if the pets can do that as well there no reason not to use them. Half the Rangers never bother to res their pets during combat anyway. If the pets could be relied on to tank the MM could switch to minion bombing rather than minion blocking. --NieA7 09:13, 6 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I play Ranger mostly and I think we are seeing the same problem. Most rangers don't want to res their pets until after battle.  There is a good reason for this as the original stats for a B/P ranger on the article page were set so that a pet's death = ~8-10 seconds of skill bar black out (which practically eliminated any use of Barrage or any other skill) and most wouldn't res a pet until after a battle because of this.  Since then I have changed the stats (see 'stats' section below) so that a pet's death should = ~3-5 seconds of blackout and allow more frequent use of their skills and less drawbacks for ressing the pet.  The Pet tank I list above has a blackout time of only 2-3 seconds.  I realize all pets tanking might eliminate too many minions so perhaps only 1-2 pet tanks come per group with the above stats?  So how about the idea for a Pet tank variant for 1-2 of the rangers?[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  09:24, 6 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Feeble rangers always complaining about something, they should try sacrificing 125 health every 3 seconds and see how they like it. Anyway, I've not tried a run with 5 rangers all strong in BM so I couldn't say if it would work or not (though my guess is that it would). Trouble is B/P is a pretty general kind of team build, lots of variations are possible, several are improvements over the default. It's a question of how many combinations we want to go into here. --NieA7 10:08, 6 October 2006 (CDT)
 * There can never be enough combos! Seriously, I've had only one other team before where a ranger did a similar build to the pet tank variant and it was a very fast run since we could res our pets in 1-2 seconds thus keeping the enemies at bay a lot more often and targeting the pets better.  If ever I get a cooperative enough team I'll try it with all the rangers but that's unlikely to find.[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  11:30, 6 October 2006 (CDT)

It should also be noted that if the pet dies within I think about 5-7 seconds after being rez'd, it doesn't black out the Ranger's skillbar again. It works kinda in the same way as DP with multiple deaths within a short time-frame. Just because you die 3 times in one battle, it doesn't mean you have 45% DP you know? Works kinda the same way with pets and the skillbar blackout. ;) — Jyro X (contribs) 13:17, 6 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Yeah, I do already know this (since I use Beast Mastery more often than any other attribute in GW) but I find it a fine line of when to include info like this or not. So many of the guidelines on Wiki talk about not mentioning things people should know that I tend to omit more than I include too often.  I should include every scrap of info about pets in each article that includes pets since so many players don't know the intricacies like some of us do.  Thanks for telling though. :D  [[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  13:56, 6 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Well, as it turns out, I was able to find a group with high ranks in Beast Mastery (I could see the health of the pets upon resurrecting them go up beyond the half way mark and no one brought Revive Animal). It was quite possibly the fastest run I've ever had.  Finished in 40 minutes and no pets were dead longer than 5-10 seconds the whole run.  I found ressing of pets more often also ends up with more minions too (or at least the same number as before).  Given, not all the rangers had Predatory Pounce, I caught 3 of the other 4 rangers (I was #5) using Call of Protection and 2 of the other 4 using Predator's Pounce.  Very freaky to run into this group but it was excellent.  I highly recommend these 2 pet skills to be brought with you.  The wall and targets for the mobs was always there for a change - even when the MM got lagged in a bad location and died - his minions attacked the pets mostly and they all lived through the battle.  So now that I've miraculously had the option to test out the above build with a team mostly using it I highly recommend it.  Just remember to bring one interrupt as I was the only one who had! :D  [[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  12:31, 17 October 2006 (CDT)

Enchantments
"Use of enchantments is generally discouraged, since most monsters have some form of enchantment removal". On reflection this seems a bit daft - the orders spells are enchants that are (ideally) kept up constantly and refreshed every 5 seconds. With the Orders necro going full tilt they'll almost always be enchantments flying about to be shattered. Why not use the orders as a cover enchant for more useful spells like Vigorous Spirit and Healing Breeze, or some from the prot line (this is the point at which my limited monking experience becomes painfully obvious)? --NieA7 08:42, 2 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Fingers of Chaos for Monks. --Mgrinshpon 15:02, 2 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Throw Dirt for victims. --NieA7 15:10, 2 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I've found that Orders offers a good cover for Vigorous Spirit and Healing Breeze, myself. Even if something does get shattered, a quick Orison (or, at worst, Heal Other/Jamei's Gaze) takes care of the damage. --Armond Warblade (talk) 22:41, 3 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Yep, just what I'm talking about. If nobody objects I'll modify the page slightly in the next day or so. --NieA7 03:35, 4 October 2006 (CDT)

Warder Variant
Please discuss variants on the discussion page before adding. This sounds awful as Rangers can't evede the monster skill Fingers of Chaos and Ward Against Melee gives evasion. Blocking or adding armor may be do-able but this dosen't make sense. I removed it from the article page and have pasted it below as I don't know who put it there and I wanted it to be salvageable in case it goes back with changes.  Vallen Frostweaver  08:10, 4 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Warder Variant
 * Instead of 5 R/Mo barrage rangers, one should be replaced with a R/E with Ward Against Melee instead of rebirth. It takes alot of pressure off the monk when there is a bad lure.
 * Not to mention that it would be hard for a Ranger to maintain Ward Against Melee and have to replace Rebirth as well as having lower attribute points in all the other areas just to sacrifice points for Earth Magic so that the ward can last longer. This variant seems pointless to me as all it would do is protect the necromancer(s) and the monk. — Jyro X [[Image:Spiteful_Spirit.jpg|25px]](contribs) 09:39, 4 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Perfect... Protect the only two that won't be in the area of the ward if they know what they're doing. --Armond Warblade (talk) 20:27, 5 October 2006 (CDT)
 * As much as I appreciate being protected in the Tombs I tend to agree. Ward Against Foes might be more workable, but even then I'm not sure it's worth it. --NieA7 09:58, 4 October 2006 (CDT)

Stats
Before the change I made, the stats showed:
 * Marks 12+1+3
 * Exp 9+1
 * Wild 9+1
 * Beast 3+1

Expertise doesn't benefit anything at 10 that it wouldn't at 9 so I reduced Exp to 8+1. Further, 1 health regen from Troll Ungent won't make as much difference as the much less blackout from pet death does so I changed Beast to 8+1 and Wild to 7+1.

Overall changes effect as such:
 * Marksmanship effects all skills the same as before - unchanged.
 * Expertise effects all skills the same as before related to cost.
 * Troll Unguent has 1 less health regen.
 * Pet death skill bar blackout time reduced 2-4 seconds and increases pet damage per attack.
 * -1 seconds blindness from Throw Dirt (total 10 seconds of blind now).
 * -1 damage from Distracting Shot (total 10 damage on hit now).
 * If using Winnowing it changes from level 7, 110 seconds to level 6, 94 seconds but still does same damage as that is unmodified (Winnowing Ranger stat change added.

If you do not like this change please list why below. Thanks.  Vallen Frostweaver  13:02, 5 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Did not know that pet blackout is reduced by beast mastery. I like. --Armond Warblade (talk) 20:32, 5 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Being an avid Beast Master I knew but didn't think to mention it. You bring a good point though so I added a small note explaining the reduction of blackout with higher ranks in Beast Mastery.[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  06:29, 6 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Change should really have been discussed here before changing as build has been voted on ... Just noticed you did give some notice to the change, but not much! However at 1st glance I like the change and think it improves the build.  (Other effects are 2 seconds less on Throw dirt and -2 damage on Distracting shot) --JP 06:45, 6 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Oops. Missed those stat changes but I only dropped Expertise 1 rank which is 1 second and 1 damage less for those skills - I think you got it confused with Wilderness Survival and the only thing that would be effected that I missed is Winnowing's duration but then the Winnowing carrier could reduce Beast Mastery ranks for more Wilderness Survival easy enough (I'll add that note to the Winnowing variant line) though I really don't know why they'd want to.
 * Sorry for the short notice. I wanted people to be aware of what I was doing but I didn't give it any thought for advanced notice before hand.  At least I was taking accountability for it right? ;) I added your additional stat changes to the above list too.  Thanks.[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  08:19, 6 October 2006 (CDT)

Variation
A variation on this build is not to rely so much on planning for dying. In other words not everyone has to have rebirth and a rez signet if necessary would be fine as a back up rez.

A ranger necro can initiate a lot of damage using mark of pain and barbs. When the target is marked with barbs and 11 attributes, every attack is another 8 damage. With minions pets and rangers all targetting the marked foe, the damage mounts up really fast. It is especially effective on worms and grasps.

Mark of pain however is a godsend. With 11 curses on a ranger each attack on the mark causes 30 damage to all surround foe. With rangers barraging and fiends, the damage mounts up fast. It is an area of effect and the foe will scatter some but in experience they dont run far, and it doesnt matter because they cant run from arrows. When used in bottlenecks and mass aggro situations the damage is enormous. I have seen the screen covered in 30 damage scores, so much so you cant see the enemy.

A favourite technique is to mark the worms, then aggro everything around it. While minions and pets hold the foe in place barrage wreaks havoc on them with the marked damage spreading to all surrounding foe.

I have found this so successful and the damage so great I use Mark of Pain on ALL characters in tombs, preferring to wreak damage on them than worry about dying. Mark of pain on an orders necro will deal out 40 or 42 damage to all surrounding foe, that intermixed with standard orders skills wipes out large bunches really fast.

Would be happy for someone to try it out and capture damage information. Ive used it in over 100 runs and just love watching the damage fly all over the screen.

Variation and comments on R/M build
Summary All rangers doing pet barrage runs should experiment with skills, while the basics are barrage, charm and comfort pet, there is a huge amount of variation to builds available to be used on these runs. People should experiment, and improve, although I fully concede the basic concept of pets and barrage is almost unbeatable in this area.

Issues (Rebirth Wasted, Primary with Ranger Secondary, Expertise, Raising Pets, Necro Secondary)

Rebirth Wasted Too many rangers, possibly with inexperience or lack of imagination rely on what they believe the standard barrage ranger build is, so much so that they dont accept anyone not using the standard builds.

It doesnt make sense for every ranger to have to have rebirth. That suggests the team as a whole is relying on being able to recover from serious damage instead of planning to inflict mass damage. After doing over 200 runs in tombs, I am of the opinion that it is a wasted skill slot to have 5 ranger monks each with rebirth that doesnt always get used. That is a skill slot that could be filled with a damage enhancing skill. As long as a couple of rangers have it, and they ensure they survive to use it, there is no need for everyone to waste a skill slot.

Some people refuse to accept other secondaries simply because they believe they need rebirth. In most runs where everyone knows what they are doing and take precautions, the only person that should expect to be killed at some point is the puller.

Marksmenship and Expertise Attributes Some even refuse to accept other primaries with ranger secondary, complaining that the primary has insufficient marksmen attributes, when in reality probably 50% of rangers dont use 16 marks anyway. What they miss out on are many skills a different primary could use along with barrage and pet skills.

I created a necro ranger, and an ele ranger both of whom could inflict mass damage while still providing basic barrage pet support. They still barraged, and used pets for the basic concept. While there was less damage on barrage there are various ele skills that can enhance damage. Examples. Eruption - 5-28 damage over 5 seconds and extra benefit of blinding for 10 seconds. Earthquake - 26-85 earth damage to all foes. Glymph concentration to avoid disruption. There are numerous other variations an ele could use in one or two slots to enhance the run and make up for loss of marksmenship damage.

Conversely the necro ranger using barbs and mark of pain inflicts mass damage while still providing barrage and pet support.

The loss of the ranger attribute expertise in a secondary is irrelevant as the only affected skills commonly used in standard ranger barrage runs are throw dirt and distracting shot. By utilising a practice of not getting close enough to grasps throw dirt while handy is not absolutely necessary. Distracting shot reloads fast enough for reuse without wasting attributes to make it faster. Most of the time three to five of the rangers carry it anyway.

Raising Pets So many, so many rangers mistakenly believe the only reason for pets is for them to die to make minions. Many rangers have beast mastery set at 1 or 2 simply because of this belief.

When the pets are alive, they attack what the ranger attacks. They make a wall between the ranger and the foe. When they die they provide energy to soul reaping for the MM and a body if needed. You only have to count the dead enemy bodies to realize there are heaps of bodies for MM and a belief that the pets are solely to supply bodies for the MM is mistaken. But their most important role is tank, and prevent foe from attacking the rangers.

If you watch situations where the pets are left dead, you will see the foe rushing to the rangers. If you raise a pet who is now behind the lines you will see the foe run back to the pet. Therefore it makes sense to continually rez them. While they are alive it is very rare that the grasps will continue to charge the rangers. In most failed runs it has nearly always been because rangers failed to raise their pets, thus removing their own protective wall. Rangers should have between 5 - 8 attributes in Beast Mastery.

Keep a couple of pets alive at ALL times, and it is unlikely that any rangers will face critical damage.

Necro Secondaries After much experimentation I now use necro as secondary on all professions I use in Tombs, even on the monk. All of them carry barbs and Mark of Pain. Mark of pain being the main reason as it dishes out mass damage very quickly over a long period of time. My monk, minion master, orders, and rangers ALL, carry those two skills.

I have seen the screen completely covered in 30 points damage from a nicely placed mark, especially in bottleneck and mass aggro situations. It is an AOE but there is no negative in that. Sometimes they run a little from the AOE but, they cant avoid arrows, and when they run, they usually run away from you which is a positive, not a negative. In bottleneck situations they have nowhere to run and when grouped mass damage occurs. I have screenshots of estimated damage of 1500 in 3 seconds, especially on the stairs in the last level.

The minion master casts Mark, then the fiends just wipe them out. Couple that with barrage from the rangers and its unbelievable the amount of damage that occurs.

The monk casts it now and again, after all the more damage done, the less healing needed.

Orders absolutely rocks with mark of pain, the damage being 42 to all surrounding foe. Mixed and mingled with OOP the damage soon mounts up.


 * That's quite the post there. I agree with almost everything you said there so good job and well spoken.  A few things I would like to respond to though:
 * Rebirth is an issue. I think any reuseable res is fine but as I (and I'm sure you) are aware that there are a lot of inexperienced rangers out there and if you are in a PuG and expericed then 1/2 of them in your group probably aren't and you are bringing the res to keep the party alive since they usually die and can't use it while dead.  So, if you think you'll die a lot, then don't bother with a res, if you don't die often - if ever - then bring one to res the others that aren't as talented (unless with guildies or an exerienced group then definitely cut back on the reses).  Makes me think of Throw Dirt.  I never need it but it appears I only use it to save others.  Kinda annoying to chase them about though so I don't bother these days and figure they'll learn not to run ahead like that next time.
 * I highly agree that other secondaries (and even some primaries) are of good to great use. The example you give of the Ele skills kinda scares me though but I haven't tried it myself and would never restrict others from doing so in a party I am organizing.
 * Pets live = Party lives. We agree on this too.
 * MoP and Barbs never crossed my mind as they create the AoE scatter but I never thought to use them in the manner you describe either. Sounds like fun to me.
 * All in all you make several good points and I'm glad that I don't run into too many elitist "16 Marks only!" people these days.[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  13:52, 17 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Me, I'm always open to new ideas for this team. The biggest problem I see with all the ideas is that we really can't put them all on the main page without taking up way too much space. ^^;


 * I'm gonna try a R/N for Tombs with the skills you mentioned. Sounds very fun - 1500 damage, even over fifteen enemies, is nothing to be sneezed at. (Kudos to anyone who gets that reference.) Also going to throw lots in Beast Mastery. (This means I need to actually use my ranger...)


 * I hope you don't mind, but I cleaned up your post to make it easier to read (headings in bold, spaces where you would expect them to be but they aren't, etc). For next time, the Editing help link (reproduced here) and the "Show preview" button under where you type these in can help. Also, the next time you put in a number of great ideas like this, leave four tildes ( ~ ) at the end of your post so we can know who you are and praise you wonderous work, ok? :) --Armond Warblade (talk) 19:15, 22 October 2006 (CDT)

Psyched for Nightfall
So, I was bored and I did a bit of searching and tweaking, and well, here's what I am up with (also in my Sandbox. {| width="100%" style="background: transparent;"
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[[Image:Necromancer-icon.png]] B/P Orders
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Designed For: Tomb of the Primevil Kings. It uses defensive shouts and chants in addition to Orders to help offset healing pressure from the monk and assist the entire group in a more hands-on method.

Equipment: Full Scar Pattern armor or equivilent, a 20/20 Insightful Blood magic staff of Enchanting (20%). No Vigor Runes.

Order of the Vampire Variant
Usage: Keep Awaken the Blood on yourself while letting Blood Renewal die-off after each cast while spamming order of the vampire. Use Zealous Anthem often to assist with energy managment for the group. Song of Power should be used after-battle to allow allies to recover spent energy and be ready to roll quicker.

Order of Pain Variant
Usage: Stay close to the group and use Order of Pain with Song of Restoration. This results in much more powerful heals for shorter periods of time, but is much more manually intensive on yourself. Like the Order of the Vampire version, this requires that Awaken the Blood always stay on the caster. Let Blood Renewal, however, die off. Use Zealous Anthem for energy managment mid-battle. Do not be tempted to replace Signet of Return with a different skill. Ever.

Variants: Replace Zealous Anthem with Song of Power for after-battle regen.


 * }
 * }

Of course, it's all theoretical right now, since Nightfall isn't here yet, but it's just a little to get your noggins flowing. --Mgrinshpon 13:13, 21 October 2006 (CDT)


 * I'm reeeeally looking at "Go for the Eyes!", "Find Their Weakness!" (FTW?), and Burning Refrain. Especially with an A/R in the team. (Bleeding + Deep Wound + Burning + poison from a pet? Sounds sweet...) --Armond Warblade (talk) 19:32, 22 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Alright, it's available standalone in a seperate build page as N/P Ordergon and I tested it in GvG with a Ranger spike, and WOW. We needed only 1 monk with the healing power of the Order of Pain Variant. It's incredible. The Vampire one is still great for B/P Teams, but the OoP is just superior in my opinion. --Mgrinshpon 22:03, 28 October 2006 (CDT)

Minion Master Variant?
focuses on walls, self-sufficiency (somewhat), and a bit of team support

This variant obviously doesn't do much, until there are corpses to exploit and a minion army to maintain. I've been using it in Tombs for as long as I can remember by now. A few benefits are that it's a self-sufficient build healing-wise (alternating between Blood of the Master and Heal Area works very well too), unless under attack. And although Bone Fiends have less armor than the melee minions, they're excellent for forming a wall, if you know when to use them. That way, you have a melee wall for whatever group of monsters you're finding, and a "backup" distance wall for the Grasps (usually only them) that slip through. They're also nice for dealing damage while avoiding damage from the pop up wurms. Alternatively, you could have a wall of just Bone Fiends and the Flesh Golem for wider areas, particularly uneven pop ups, where a group of melee would converge on one monster and leave a gap for the pop ups that appear later. The openings to the later half of the second level are an example.

The use of Mo skills also serves to counteract the loss of Vamp Horrors. I don't use Dark Bond, since my necro really only encounters emergencies when a group wipe is inevitable, which also means that there are minions left, due to the lack of corpses. It's also great for the particularly insane groups. One of the most memorable was when Orders left, and some others started bickering. The Mo left over some minor disagreement. Two of the B/P then left, which left us with 3 B/P and me as the MM. We had just regrouped from a retreat back from the "Dryder Tunnel" on Part II. We cleared that out and got done with all of Part III, then wiped at Part IV. This isn't to say that the R's never died, but it did work out better than expected. The three of them obviously had to have had a high level of competence as well. The main point is, though, that a self-sufficient (somewhat) MM can also serve as somewhat of a backup healer (run up to Rs and Heal Area/Breeze at the right time) and help the group out without worrying too much about healing. There are also other times that you can get through the run fairly easily, even after the Mo has dropped (later end of Part II, no DP, well-coordinated group). I suppose that this got longer than it should have... sorry about that. Also, would a guide focused on MM'ing (maybe also pulling) for those new to Tombs have a place on wiki? It doesn't really seem to belong in this build article or guides. (forgot to sign!) Pae 15:01, 1 December 2006 (CST)
 * You could write this variation up in the article (see the orders necro below, it has a variations section). We currently have the General minion mastery guide which lists some of the skills and tactics available to a MM. --Xasxas256 00:47, 2 December 2006 (CST)

MM
Am I the only one thinking "Screw Death Nova, I'm bringing Animate Shambling Horror"? The bleeding is reeeeally sexy. And we should say something about Jagged Bones instead of fleshy (would do it myself but I'm too lazy and want to see what you guys think).

Also, time for archive of talk page? --Armond Warblade (talk) 20:03, 9 January 2007 (CST)


 * Yeap I've been playing with Animate Shambling Horror and generally use that now instead of Death Nova. If anything it means more minions as when the Shamblings die, up pops a Jagged Horror to replace it.  This is especially useful in Fissure of Woe where there are area's where you will not get a corpse to exploit (basically the Battle Plains where the Skele army sits, and area's where Shadow Beast's manage to Consume Corpse before you get a minion from the corpse). --P.hilling 22:29, 9 January 2007 (CST)

Mark of Rodgort
Ripped from the main page, it looked like it belonged here.

My guild has had much success using a attunement using elementalist/mesmer with elemental attunement/fire attunement/echo/mark of rodgort. One ranger would bring conflagration, and the ele would spam mark of rodgort into the crowd. Since the nightfall updates mark of rodgort has activated as an area of effect hex, causing many of the creatures to be hit with mark. This causes a massive burning effect, quickening death. The ele also brings along normal nuking skills he uses to heighten damage even more, making the runs very quick. Our first time the clear went through with relative ease, with the ele and monk never having been in tombs before

--Armond Warblade (talk) 16:32, 16 January 2007 (CST)

Beast Mastery Attribute
(moved from Talk:hero)

As for the B/P pet: the reason why pets are minion fodder is the following: - pets have the same armor and HP as a lvl 18 minion - pets have LESS damage than a lvl18 minion at low BM attrib. Since I did not find any reference on low BM pets, I counted myself:
 * BM=3 pet: avrg dmg on lvl60 target: 10.8
 * BM=6 pet: avrg dmg on lvl60 target: 14.8
 * lvl18 bone: avrg dmg on lvl60 target: 27.5 (the minion master guide here on Gwiki is correct)

(I hope you do not decrease your own damage by putting much more than that into BM, and less into markmanship!!!) -pets can body block with ONE body, minions can body block with 1+x bodies, depending on how many times the pet dies. If this is not enough for you Capcom, go and check B/P threads on forums.--Vazze 12:02, 8 February 2007 (CST)


 * Level 20 pets have 80 armor and 420-540 health (depending on evolution), level 18 horrors have 72 armor and 440 health (and the degeneration). You're also assuming one uses really low Beast Mastery as far as attack strength goes; guess what, you don't have to do that. (Their attack also depends on their evolution, btw.) Just because something's popular doesn't make it "right" or better. Also note that the "popular" build choice on this Wiki places Beast Mastery at 9 even, not 3 or 6. I don't use Wilderness Survival, I have plenty of points to put into Beast Mastery. While minions might be able to block more than pets once you get enough of them, you're going to have at least 5 pets, not "ONE"... and how do you suggest blocking before getting minions? Oh yeah, the pets do that. I much prefer using pets and minions in tandem, rather than using one like crap you only need to create the other. Please don't try to assert yourself as being correct or better. Capcom 18:47, 8 February 2007 (CST)


 * This is one of the basic concepts of the build. So I am surprised that we are still talking about this.
 * "Level 20 pets have 80 armor and....": that seems pretty much the same for me. +minions are healed by the MM, who has tons of energy, and he can heal his minions by a ridiculously cheap heal. If you heal your own pet, you loose energy and you are not attacking. If monk tries to heal pets he will run out of energy when mobs break through the body block wall.
 * "You're also assuming one uses really low Beast Mastery...I have plenty of points to put into Beast Mastery..." Why so secretive? How much? Anyway, if you have markmanship at max and exp at 9, BM is probably 11. Since you were lazy to go to the Isle of Nameless, I went there instead of you: BM=11 DIRE pet against a lvl60 target: 24.5 damage (12DPS). This is slightly higher than bone horror DPS (9) but still, a small fraction of YOUR DPS. And you have no points left to put into another attrib for utility/self heal/etc.
 * "...using pets and minions in tandem, rather than using one like crap you..." I disregard your insult here and tell you that pets MUST be resurrected instantly (after the blackout) so they can continue body blocking. In case they die again...MM raises yet another minion ...and you rez him again and again. In this way MM can keep the minion horde at max in critical situations, when mobs just don't want to start dying off. All the pets are alive and kicking most of the time. The only reason to have higher BM is to minimize blackout, but 11 is way too much for that. In my opinion 4-8 in BM is ideal in most cases. --71.72.50.141 10:40, 9 February 2007 (CST)--Vazze 10:43, 9 February 2007 (CST)

These arguments are very old. Pets attack roughly once every 2 seconds and bone horros once every 3. DPS and health ranges per Beast Mastery rank and per Death Magic ranks as appropriate. Minions attack a near target while pets attack the rangers target. And so on, and so on... They are different. Again, They are different. They are to be used together in the B/P tombs group. For the Tombs team group, ranks in Beast Mastery are to reduce the blackout from pet death (a blacked out ranger won't be barraging much) and as a nice side effect the pet does more damage too. This is different if used in a pet tank method but I am only referring to the typical groups. Both minions and pets are for body blocking but due to the large damage they both receive in the front line the pets corpses provide more minions as well as can be resurrected. They are a constant stream of a front line wall but both need to be maintained. Yes a Minion Master is very useful but have more than one in a group and it's not so good as there are only so many corpses to be had. This is why adding pets helps to create an even bigger wall and offer more corpses. If you want to argue the damage from each don't forget that the team effort of the barrage, pets, and minions gets almost doubled by the addition of an orders necro but without the team they are just as fragile as the others. Please stop arguing how one is better than the other when they are clearly used for some similar things but are actually 2 very different tools and everything is meant to be used in a team effort.--  Vallen Frostweaver  11:05, 9 February 2007 (CST)
 * This argument was NOT about damage of pet/minion (although a larger part of the text is about damage (of minion/pet), its role is not so important in the argument). This whole thing is coming from the Talk:hero page (I should have copied the beginning part too), and it started with this: whether or not (hero) monks heal (shouldn't heal) pets in (hero) B/P teams. I believe your comment helped to clear the issue of BM attrib (I am guessing that's why he wanted to keep his pet alive). I also hope that now he understands the role of the monk better. --Vazze 13:45, 9 February 2007 (CST)
 * I was arguing about the fact you claimed pets were only good as minion fodder, while I prefer using the pets as equal to party members almost. It never involved heroes specifically, why do you think you had to move the discussion? How was I "too lazy" to test their damage? I never claimed I wanted to, I was pointing out you shouldn't give incorrect figures if you're making an argument. I use Predatory Bond for self-healing. Unless things go really badly, it's never been not enough healing for me. I doubt in such a situation that Troll Unguent will save you either. I also fail to see what insult I levied when I simply stated I don't like using pets like crap, a statement which wasn't even directed at you. Perhaps you just misread my sentence. You do realise pets shall get death penalty in PvE eventually? What then? They'll become kinda bad if you let them die continually, every battle. I believe Vallen has played with teams actually using the pets without a "RAWR DIE" attitude towards them, so he could confirm that such a thing DOES work. I'm not even trying to say that way is absolutely better or whatnot than what you're saying; you, however, keep trying to tell me this way is utterly horrible and that your way is the "right" way. That's extremely rude and condescending of you, and I do not much appreciate being told how to play. Capcom 19:35, 9 February 2007 (CST)
 * This is a kind of weird thing to have in Tombs b/p. Anywhere where corpses are rare, pets are meat. Anywhere else it doesn't matter. Tombs are one of the places where it helps to have pets die. UW as well. -- [[Image:Ranger-icon-small.png|25px]]Oblio (talk) 11:18, 13 February 2007 (CST)
 * One thing to keep in mind though is that if the MM drops you pretty much fail since the blackout is too long and the pet damage is low if running low BM ranks (and you can't keep the "wall " up). I encourage others to bring 1-2 pet skills and average or higher in BM ranks as I've single handedly held off 3 grasps with my bear as I had a zealous barrage, call of protection, predator's pounce, and some decent ranks in BM.  The rest of the team had wiped and I couldn't retreat anymore so I was very glad that day I went the way I did.  One pet tank of some sort is a good idea in any B/P group and I usually recommend more.  They do add to damage and survivability though more corpses can too.  It's a trade off but I have no problems with any of the variants personally. --[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  16:11, 13 February 2007 (CST)

Paragon Variant
I've been recently playing a R/P with 10 command using the skills "Go for the eyes!" and Anthem of Envy and have noticed large spikes of damage on mobs when I use these skills. I was thinking with 1-2 more R/Ps the damage capacity of the group would be greatly increased, yet I have never seen anyone use R/P in tombs other than me? Am I missing something? 70.190.4.249 23:55, 11 February 2007 (CST)
 * I decided to register after making the above post so thats me in case anyone wants to get in touch. MishimaYukio 00:01, 12 February 2007 (CST)
 * I certainly have seen b/p teams add a P/R in tombs, or use a P/* in Urgoz (replacing the bip). -- [[Image:Ranger-icon-small.png|25px]]Oblio (talk) 12:40, 13 February 2007 (CST)
 * I've been wanting too for some time but ran out of skill points and keep spending them on other skills before thinking about it.--[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  16:12, 13 February 2007 (CST)
 * I've been running a R/P for almost half a year now with 10 in Command. "Go for the Eyes!" is incredibly useful as it also applies to all the minions and pets. For a second paragon skill, Anthem of Envy is good or if you need the extra defense "Never give up!" can save the whole group for a mere 5 energy. Too many people fail to see how effective R/P is in a barrage team, because they refuse to try something new. No need for a main class paragon here.

Splinter Weapon
I've seen more people wanting to replace Orders with a Splinter Weapon caster, but I'm not sure how efficient it is overall. I guess that a rough damage calculation could be done eventually. Anyway, the N/Mo provides more party support with BR and healing outside of OoV. I think that a Rt/Me might be able to cover for a bit of that with points in Restoration and using Echo and Arcane Echo to get three copies of Splinter Weapon. I also talked with a Me/Rt using points in Fast Casting to spam Splinter Weapon and was told that monsters die quickly enough that the Mo has no need for E and that several runs were done with no problems. Here's the build that I was given by Juhani Revan (IGN - and okay with me posting this). 12 Channeling, 15 Inspiration, 7 Fast Casting, 2 Restoration

~ Pae 23:34, 11 March 2007 (CDT)
 * assuming an 3 shots per barrage, and an 85% (with a +20% enchanting weapon, OoV covers 6 seconds, against a recycle+cast time of 7 seconds) long term efficiency, it's, on average, a fairly consistent 48 extra points per barrage, which is passed back as healing. Splinter Weapon provides 53 AoE damage per arrow, with 15% (5 second recast means you can only cover 1/3 barrages, three copies means only half the rangers get coverage, each with an average of 3 targets) efficiency, giving a highly variable 29 points per barrage of additional damage (min 9, max 49), none of which gets back to the party as healing. the efficiency goes WAY down if you consider that you can only keep the echo chain at full strength for 20 out of 51 seconds. Splinter provides a much higher spike (maxing out at almost 750 extra damage for three barragers with 5 or more arrows on target), but vampire provides a higher consistent pressure with the bonus of healing. hurray for math-girl! --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 01:29, 12 March 2007 (CDT)


 * I give points, but I swear that's not Sarah. That post has capitals. :P --Armond Warblade (talk) 01:55, 12 March 2007 (CDT)
 * only cause the skill links require it ;P --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 02:00, 12 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Lol. I've played Splinter Barrager in parties since Faction's introduction and honestly, the combination of someone bringing Splinter Weapon (namely a Ranger) and the orders necro works fine.  No need to re-create the orders necro as something else.  Between battles the ranger just needs to cast on each other ranger and then on themselves before they fire.  That first volley is what does it usually and the orders helps a lot too.  If the battle is prolonged then the single casting every other barrage still works fine (on yourself).  Besides, the mobs scatter a bit these days and it's wasted to try and Splinter Weapon the whole party every few seconds since many don't know how to choose a proper target to get a proper effect.  I think it's best to keep it simple and as a secondary on a ranger.  It's always worked for me and every time I go with that and and a recuperation/life barrager the party finish time usually ends up around the 40 minute mark unless we get droppers or afk-ers, less with guildies.--[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  07:48, 12 March 2007 (CDT)