GuildWiki talk:Builds wipe

Links
Just to make sure everyone knows what/where everything currently is: More info: -- Peej 20:29, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Builds wipe (this page) - policy describing deleting all builds so that a better replacement build system can be started
 * Post No Builds - aka PNB - policy which only serves to protect the Build namespace in the interim between the build wipe and the replacement system being put into place
 * For clarity, I've included what will be the new policy into the builds wipe article. PNB is no longer referenced in any form. &mdash;Tanaric 19:48, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * No Original Builds - aka NOB - policy describing a solution to the PvP build section which involves only posting popular and successful builds found by watching observer mode
 * Profession archetype guides - recently written policy describing a solution to the PvE build section which involves documenting the basic uses of each profession in a guide format, with links to true PvE builds in user space
 * Builds wipe does NOT mean that all build posting will be permanently removed from the wiki, just that the current system of build posting will be removed in order to put something better in its place
 * Post No Builds doesn't mean you can't post builds on the wiki, just that you can't post them in the Build namespace
 * Both NOB and Profession Guides suggest original builds and build variants can be placed in user space, where they will be categorized and (hopefully) easy to find using template tags, so creation of personal builds will still be allowed

Discussion
Maybe I'm out of place here... But I'm frankly infuriated at this idea. So there's a big problem with the builds; I'll grant you ("you" being defined as supporters of this policy) that for the sake of argument. (I actually don't agree with that.) So the solution is to get everyone running around saving copies of all the builds they like while we delete an entire namespace of the wiki? A namespace that was specifically created because there were so many builds that so many people liked? I mean, come on! --Armond Warblade (talk) 21:12, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Builds wipe = policy eh? When did that happen? -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 21:14, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
 * I do believe I've seen it referred around the wiki as a policy. If not, put it down to me being PO'd. (Good thing I stopped myself from typing more, then, if I'll be jumped on for calling this a policy.) --Armond Warblade (talk) 21:50, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
 * This is a plan of action. It has no Proposed policy or accepted policy tag, so referring to it as policy would be technically incorrect; however, that matters little. I was just being nit picky. I'm just wondering what your point is. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 21:52, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Plain and simple: If the builds section is indeed a problem, the solution is not to tear it down, make everyone run around trying to save the "good" builds that they like (as defined in different ways by different people), and then (likely) in a few months come up with a "better" builds section that will likely include nearly all the builds that were torn down. It just seems like too much effort for too little result. --Armond Warblade (talk) 21:56, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Suggest you read the archives here and at GuildWiki talk:Post No Builds. All builds will not necessarily be coming back, none of the ones saved might come back.  It all depends on what people decide on for the new policy.  --Rainith 22:00, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Also... "the solution is not to tear it down." What is, pray tell, the solution? Tanaric and others have waited almost a year for the solution to appear... it hasn't, so now he's taking the course of action he sees most fit. It's easy to stand around and say how this *isn't* the solution... but it's hard to say something substantial. I'd love to hear the solution, though, if you have it. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 22:16, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
 * The build section had major issues that people tried to fix and everyone fought (no matter how fixes were proposed.) The current build section was certainly not good enough so it is being purged and if people want a build section they have to develop a new policy.  You are the first of many that are going to whine about this and quite a few are going to throw tantrums.  However the current build section is pretty pathetic and needs reworked.  This gets the ball rolling and forces people to do something.  It was needed for quite some time really.  -Warskull 00:03, 26 March 2007 (CDT)


 * Basically the change is to a no voting system. Simply put voting does not work in any form or manner even in RL with governments and the judicial system.  The reason it doesn't work is because the people who vote aren't exactly all that into politics or current affairs.  Most voters have a vested interest in a certain political party for no good reason.  Looking back at the 2004 election, it was quite obvious that a lot of the American public has no idea what is going on in the world, especially in places like Africa and the middle east.  Most people were voting on the personal flaws and qualities of the presidential candidates instead of the ability and the flaws of the administration and what it can do for the country... because we all know that the president has little power, and it is the administrative staff that is running the government.  But then again corporate lobbying etc and money is always involved so who's to say who's running the show?
 * So lets move away from that and talk about the judicial system. Although unanimous concencus must be met for a jury to decide guilty or not guilty... but the system is "jury of your peers".  More like people who couldn't get away from jury duty.  Most current day jurors are not molecular biologists that can interpret DNA evidence, or engineers that can tell the difference between a CCD and a CMOS chip.  Taxi drivers have no clue what patent law is and they are supposed to decide if a company infringed on a patent or not?? Construction workers aren't going to know how DNA is sampled and tested, and how it can be flawed depending on how it was collected.  They aren't going to know what the difference between RFLP and PCR is and the advantages and the restrictions of each type of test. Computer programmers aren't going to know what psychology is and what is considered to be an criteria for declaring insanity...
 * The point is that the current system allows "anyone" to vote. PvEers voting for GvG flag running builds, RA fanatics voting for HA builds, GvG only people voting for DoA builds etc...  And like someone said before, you wouldn't ask a janitor for a surgical consult would you? --Lania Elderfire[[Image:Pinkribbonsig.gif|My Talk]] 00:53, 26 March 2007 (CDT)
 * -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 01:04, 26 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Ramble ramble rant rant --Lania Elderfire[[Image:Pinkribbonsig.gif|My Talk]] 01:30, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Gasp, communists! :O Seriously tho, if democracy can't work on a Wiki - founded on the principles of community - then it can't work in real life either, true? Wiki-ism is really closer to Communism or Socialism than Democracy. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 01:32, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Or anarchy, depending on your point of view.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 09:59, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

"A namespace that was specifically created because there were so many builds that so many people liked?" - no, the namespace was created so that builds would be kept separate from all other content for a number of reasons, one of which was the ability to more easily purge the build section should it prove to be too much trouble.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 06:49, 26 March 2007 (CDT)


 * I don't want Biro's comment to be looked over, so I'll reiterate in bold. There were two primary reasons the Build: namespace was created. The first was to make builds easy to ignore in recent changes for those who had no interest. The second was to make them easy to delete if the section continued its downward spiral. &mdash;Tanaric 14:56, 26 March 2007 (CDT)


 * I can tell I'm outvoted, or at least outvoiced. I guess all I can do is watch over the builds I can save. --Armond Warblade (talk) 19:50, 26 March 2007 (CDT)

About damn time! I fully support this but I will make sure I save some of the builds I use/am likely to use. Clean Slate FTW. That's why I'm glad characters won't be able to transfer from GW1 to GW2. You know that the second time you do it it will be better because you've learnt from any mistakes you've made and have an improved knowledge of what you're doing. &mdash;  Hyperion`  (talk) 10:42, 26 March 2007 (CDT)


 * ...Up until the point where people buy GW2 without getting GW1? Or is there something against that I haven't heard of? --Armond Warblade (talk) 14:04, 26 March 2007 (CDT)




 * huh? there was a GW 1? or is GW 2 comming out? anyways...
 * I am not a member of any of those other, "better" build sites, and have used GuildWiki as a place to post my build ideas. And there is 3 listed sites... I would rather visit GuildWiki build section for a combination of all 3 than having to register to all 3 sites!
 * I know there have been numerous suggestions to solve the problem of this, but I think I have one of my own (note:I have not read all the suggested solutions). Every build should have a video (hosted on Google Video/You Tube) of the build working. Videos should contain the following: in PvE Farming the boss/mob, in PvE General the build in action with a team, and in PvP a video of the build performing and doing a good job where it was meant to be used. This way, people can see how it works even without testing it them selfs. Also, this could enable people who are PvPers to vote on PvE builds and vise versa. Videos with builds will also help with there usage, thats mainly why I put them on all of my builds that I post.
 * thats a bit of what I have to say, sorry if this has already been covered... I just found out about this today!! :) Trevor3443 15:34, 27 March 2007 (CDT)


 * Interesting idea at the very least, not sure if it has been suggested before. On the other hand, it still has issues.  First, I can make just about any build work.  I can go out with a group of Guildies using Echo and Mending and do just fine in a mission.  It is hard to gauge how much an individual is contributing from a video.  Furthermore, if I go out with an excellent monk, and I never die, and then someone accuses my Assassin build of not having enough defense, I shouldn't be able to say, "Well, look at the video, I never died!"  A video also doesn't give a sense of how hard it is to play or how much effort is required.  It gives a sense of the use in a single instance, but doesn't have the same effect as testing which shows the effectiveness in multiple settings.  I can win once in GvG or HA with any build if I try enough, so documentation doesn't necessarily work for PvP.  It's a new idea, but I don't think it would work.  Defiant Elements  (talk ~ contribs) 15:41, 27 March 2007 (CDT)


 * That's a good suggestion. How about for PvE builds, a balanced team with henchies only? Noone's going to say your build doesn't have enough defense if Alesia's your only healer. And that way you can't give heroes kickass builds to make up for not having a good one yourself. Balanced = two monks, one-two warriors, one-two eles (three max), and fillers for the rest (assuming there's teams of 8). Although if the scorecards ideas come out, that would be an even easier way to prove it...


 * PvP... Is there any way we can really vet those builds, short of throwing it on guru and watching the response? Sorry, I'm really starting to not like guru now... --Armond Warblade (talk) 17:03, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Vetting would never occur for PvP builds. Avid PvPers would post builds made/run by/on verifiable sources (obs mode, namely), and the only discussion would be on variants. If it was merely a guild testing something out, the build would be deleted. Vetting is pointless; either the build works, or it doesn't. PvPers can tell if a build works for PvP or not. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 17:10, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
 * As I've stated before, if you want to have a way to vet builds, you're going to have to get a community of avid PvPers that know what they're doing and are willing to discuss builds. If you had the right community (and if only PvPers voted on the PVP BUILDS), then the current vetting process would be fine (though I would advocate a change from the requires 3 over or under to do a recount to a if it within 2 then it goes back to untested). However, you don't have the right community, and people who don't really know what they're doing in PvP like to vote on PvP builds, therefore, you have to find a foolproof way of doing things that requires documentation rather than opinion (like watching observer mode). --Theonemephisto 18:34, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
 * It would have been nice to have a community of hardcore PvPers at the wiki but we only have a handful of great pvpers... which does not include me. The alternative was to just have only that handful like auron, theonemephisto, warskull and skuld etc to vote on PvP builds but noooooo that's too elitist and excludes the noobs to ever say anything.  Also IMO observer mode is kinda of a double edge sword because a lot of people watch matches, and the majority doesn't know what the heck is going on or why they are using a certain skill.  I think it takes an avid pvper to really know what's going on and how they are using the build, and if you are an avid pvper then you probally won't need to use observer mode to have seen a new build being run by someone.  Also other times, guilds sometimes test builds, especially when the ladder is locked. And just because a team wins HoH once doesn't mean they had a good build, it just means they were lucky.  --Lania Elderfire[[Image:Pinkribbonsig.gif|My Talk]] 20:22, 27 March 2007 (CDT)


 * if farming builds are the only builds that can be 100% proven to work through videos, why not just have those builds here on the wiki? I would not mind that :) Trevor3443 18:32, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Because, you can't prove 100% that a farming build works with a video. You could wait for one perfect run with a perfect spawn and whatever and just get a video of that.  A video doesn't get a sense of how often a build works which is one of the key elements of farming.  It also can't prove that a build is easy to use.  Anyways, if we were gonna document one thing, it would be PvP builds from verifiable sources.  Defiant Elements  (talk ~ contribs) 18:58, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

If need, I'm willing to make farming videos of 2 runs in a row for all of my builds, zoning in a portal and coming back in the same video to re-farm the same area again... but then I suppose someone could edit the video.

Here is another idea I have for the farming build section, those who vote must supply a picture of the mob / boss killed after the farm. This ensures that they have tested it with success. Not sure if that would work so swell either, but it shows that it was possible by others ...if a build is not easy to use (55 monks, most UW builds) it should be stated in the build itself that it may take some practice to master. Is there not verifiable sources for farming builds? Trevor3443 19:43, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
 * The only real verification you could have are builds that are obviously tried and true. Like a 55 or Mist Form Farmers or trappers or something.  Defiant Elements  (talk ~ contribs) 19:51, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
 * You voted on 2 of my builds, Build:E/D Sandstorm Vermin Farmer and Build:E/R EoE Bomb so I guess those are ok then? don't all the builds work in the tested section of farming? or is it that it is the amount of builds that is overwhelming? Trevor3443 20:31, 27 March 2007 (CDT)


 * The wording where I read this is to complicated for a small brain like mine. So the Build Page is coming down? Nothing else, like say, the section on skills? So I can still look up when Barrage does, but not find builds that use it correct? &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.164.209.19 (contribs).
 * Exactly so. --Dirigible 17:41, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Only builds. And if a new build policy is decided on, the builds section will be back later. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 17:43, 2 April 2007 (CDT)

ts healer::: wtf man! come on guys!! i think that if u really think its bad then wipe all the....pvp build or something. i dont get why the pve builds will be wiped out to. you see... the whole idea of the site is to help players in guild wars.it doesnt matter if everybody uses the same farming (and) pve builds! and i agree thats its boring when everyone uses the same builds on pvp. its boring...

This is simply outrageous in my opinion. Just because the policy makers whom can't figure out a "solution" to some problem that may or may not exist depending on who you ask doesn't mean you should kill off the resource indefinitely. Technically, it's not supposed to be indefinite but rather until a new agreed policy can be made. Yet, obviously a policy can't be made because if it could be, we wouldn't be having a wipe now would we? Wow, a full circle. If it's just to start over fresh, that I can understand and accept that but all I hear is that a new policy couldn't be reached and thus, the section is about to be killed off. What makes you think that wiping everything will suddenly make everyone reach a consensus? It's a rather sad day when the nuclear option is chosen as the correct course of action. In any case, if it's just because of what I think is a core number of rather vocal users that complain about the process, you are about to entirely destroy a resource used by a majority of people who -never- post on guildwiki and the discussion pages. Honestly, a section describing commonly used archetypes with some skills variants listed is a good idea and great start at reducing the redundancy but there are at least several builds that aren't archetypes or commonly used but was properly vetted because they work. What about team builds? There are so many variations etc. Will the Wiki just have a rather broad archetype page there too that will either struggle to explain everything or be so lengthy that no one will bother reading it? Just having users stick their builds on their user space is quite frankly, useless since it's quite hard to get opinions from people of outside sources who may be able to point out issues that a group of particular like minded people will overlook. If the real intent is to make people use -other- sites instead of guildwiki for looking up builds since they are "better" (as advertised by the project page - heck, I'm not a build maker and only really contribute by discussion but I'd imagine a few of them have to be insulted by those general reasons), then I suppose I should shut up. PlacidBlueAlien 18:43, 2 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Right. This is something I've wanted to say for a long time, but I've held my tongue.  Anyone is welcome to start a new wiki, a BuildWiki if you will, use the same licensing terms as GuildWiki, and copy the builds over there.  Then they would be your problem, not ours.  Honestly, I would love to see this done.  But all anyone seems to want to do is whine about what is happening here, without participating in any discussions about how to fix it.  --Rainith 18:51, 2 April 2007 (CDT)


 * "What makes you think that wiping everything will suddenly make everyone reach a consensus?" If a consensus can't be reached on a sensible implementation of the Builds section, there won't be a Builds section anymore, simple as that. You want them here, you find a way to keep them here. The ball is in your court (and everyone else's who wants builds to remain a part of this wiki). --Dirigible 18:58, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I hate to point out the obvious but if people using the builds section don't see a huge issue outside of content protecting archetype builds to reduce redundancy and for documentation reasons, then what consensus can there be outside of just letting the people with a negative image of the build section have their way? Which is basically what is happening now - the build section getting removed and a great resource that is available easily to people who use it destroyed. @Rainith: If your idea of a community wiki is "my way or the highway (or in this case, another website)", then there isn't anything to discuss in the first place since you are advertising to those builders to get out of the wikiplace entirely as they have no place here. PlacidBlueAlien 19:45, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Instead of whining you could take part in the multiple policy discussions going on atm. GW:NOB is the strognest candidate atm. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 19:53, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Man, I am against deleting the entire build section but at the same time, I relatively have no interest outside of WHICH particular policy is implemented as long as it does what I feel is the correct course which is in short, to preserve the material -already- available. However, since I'm not a builder and do not make builds outside of testing and using the ideas from the builds section and adopting it to my own use, I don't feel like it's my right to vote on a policy that should be determined by the builders themselves. It simply doesn't apply to me. However, deleting the resource does apply to me. Is this such a hard thing to understand? Isn't this one of the so called problems in the first place? PvE people voting on PvP builds? I'd liken the same comparison in my case. Since this seems to be considered whining around here, so be it. I'll whine loudly and proudly until I'm banned or whatever. But since you did go out of your way to invite me to the discussion, perhaps I will go discuss the policy even if I feel I have no place in discussing it. PlacidBlueAlien 20:04, 2 April 2007 (CDT)

Redirects/lost builds
For the ones that aren't in the categories/redirects. Good job we used slashes that conflicted with the software, haha.

&mdash; Skuld 13:02, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

Worrisome Effects
I understand the many benefits of the build wipe, and am not arguing against it. However, while I agree that this would theoretically reduce policy violations and alleviate tension, has anyone else noticed the rapidly growing schism between supporters of this and those who oppose it? I am seeing members of this community quite literally crash and burn in too many instances. Good users who have contributed for as long as I have been here are leaving the Wiki and ceasing to care. They are crashing and burning, and it is at least partially a result of the Build Wipe. I understand the necessity of the build wipe, but I cannot imagine that Tanaric and the other supporters of the wipe intended this animosity to result. In fact, at least in the short term, I can see much greater friction and tension between users. Except, rather than the policy violations of Anon users, what we have is worse. It is one thing to have tension created by fringe elements (i.e. Anons and new contributers), it is quite another to have members of the core community quite literally giving up on GuildWiki. I don't know what to say actually. I don't know if there is any "good" course of action we can be taking at this point, but, at the very least, I find the effect this is having on the Wiki community perturbing. Thoughts? Defiant Elements (talk ~ contribs) 13:52, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * "I am seeing this community quite literally crash and burn in too many instances."
 * I'm pretty sure I've read all the talk on BW, PNB, NOB, and PG, but I haven't seen evidence of this. Yes, I do see that not everyone agrees with the wipe, but I don't think a 100% majority was ever expected. -- Peej 13:59, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Not what I meant. I never thought everyone should agree, I mean people are taking this as a reason to just stop caring about GuildWiki anymore.  And I am not talking about new users, I mean some of the experienced ones as well.  Defiant Elements  (talk ~ contribs) 14:03, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * It's not like builds on wiki are doomed forever, ::you can still post them on your user page. Although I have to admit I used the builds section on Wiki quite a lot, because (the good builds) were always up to date and were fully explained. It's a shame that the builds section became too big to manage, I guess this is one of the reasons for the PNB. The users who are leaving because of this wipe, should just post their builds on their user page. If the community know that that user posts good builds, I for one would check out his/her user page. Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|19px]] 14:09, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * I don't see why [people would leave just because of build wipe]. The only thing I can conclude we might lose is the vetting process, and if you're leaving the entire wiki over that, you're probably one in that "only posting builds to attempt to get a build vetted" category anyway.  If even half as much effort goes into a user-space build section as it did for backing up the build section, all the most important information will be back in about 24 hours. -- Peej 14:11, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * I happen to agree. I was just as involved as anyone else in the build section, I created 14+ favored builds.  And, I am still contributing despite a nearly crippling blow to my favorite part of the wiki.  I am not saying there is anything rational about quitting, but that it is happening.  I think perhaps that it is more an objection to the spirit of PNB and NOB than the actual effects of those policies.  Defiant Elements  (talk ~ contribs) 14:13, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * I hate to use an actual editor as an example, and if this qualifies as a violation of GW:NPA I am terribly sorry, but take a look at NightAngel's recent contributions as well as his talk page... that kind of change in behavior is the quintessence of what is worrying me. Defiant Elements  (talk ~ contribs) 14:15, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * "I think perhaps that it is more an objection to the spirit of..." You could use the same argument for "why can't I make a page for my guild?" though. Openness is nice, but limits are necessary.  As all builds are opinion based and this wiki tries to document facts, I'd say it's lucky builds were ever allowed in the first place. -- Peej 14:18, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Well, considering I personally agree with the build wipe, you are preaching to the choir. I am just worried.  Defiant Elements  (talk ~ contribs) 14:20, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * "I think perhaps that it is more an objection to the spirit of..." You could use the same argument for "why can't I make a page for my guild?" though. Openness is nice, but limits are necessary.  As all builds are opinion based and this wiki tries to document facts, I'd say it's lucky builds were ever allowed in the first place. -- Peej 14:18, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * If you aren't a native English speaker, you have to read some of these posts twice to understand lol. There's just one thing I'm wondering though... How will we know which users will be posting builds on their user page? Will there be any way for them to communicate it with us? And I also agree that Wiki is for facts, I guess that's why they are adding the popular builds only from now on, but who will be the judge of which builds are "flavour of the month" etc Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|19px]] 14:22, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Perhaps we can make templates for user builds and then have a category for them? Another solution would be the one I put in the policy I wrote: Profession Guides which would be that we create guides for each profession role and then let users link original builds from the userspace to those pages via templates.  Defiant Elements  (talk ~ contribs) 14:24, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Thank you (Silver Sunlight), you just confirmed the point I was about to make. ;) I read the most recent section on NightAngel's talk page, and I'd say most of the debate stems from not having all the relevant information.  NightAngel seemed to miss the entire fact that builds will still be allowed if not encouraged in user-space.  And for Silver Sunlight, no one will "judge" them: they will be documented when they show up  regularly in observer mode (see No Original Builds policy).  PvE original builds will be categorically linked from user-space to profession role guides (if that stuff gets to be official, see Profession Roles "policy"). -- Peej 14:27, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Perhaps the fact that some users don't know enough about these policies is worrisome enough in itself. Defiant Elements (talk ~ contribs) 14:29, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

(reset indent) Yes, someone needs to just make a BWPNBNOBPG policy page that explains everything. ;) -- Peej 14:31, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Edit conflicts galore lol... I think the templates are a good idea, but just like the normal builds section, the number of pages containing the template will become huge. There has to be a way to limit the people who can add this template to their pages, so that we know that there will be good builds listed there. Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|19px]] 14:32, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * True, but if all the builds are in the userspace, it won't matter how many there are since they are in the domain of the user and don't have to be policed by anyone. <font color="DodgerBlue">Defiant Elements  (talk ~ contribs) 14:37, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm sure some bored people will make their way through the build categories every once in awhile and make notes about anyone tagging builds incorrectly. True, the distinction between good ("vetted") and bad builds will be gone, but with some good profession guides, you'll learn to be able to better evaluate a build on your own.  There's no harm in trying a bad build anyways: if you only die with it, stop using it. :P -- Peej 14:37, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * I see a great rise in my /deaths command's number hehe... It's just going to be so much harder to find good builds from now on, ill just start with Defiant Elements' page :P Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|19px]] 14:41, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Well... I do have the majority of vetted builds on a virutal drive on my computer. I think I still have most of those links left on wiki.  Try typing "Defiant Elements" into the search engine with the "user" search category box checked.  <font color="DodgerBlue">Defiant Elements  (talk ~ contribs) 14:42, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * &mdash; Skuld 14:43, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * I don't think it'll be that much harder. Anything "popular" (for PvE), like touch ranger, necro battery, etc should have a profession role guide associated with it, and the linked category should give you all the variants and similar builds in the user-space.  Whether or not those are good might be questionable, but at least they should be relevant. -- Peej 14:46, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Maybe this won't be all bad, we might see more original builds in Guild Wars from now on, since no one will copy wiki's :P Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|19px]] 14:51, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Actually, I think that is another benefit of the Profession Guide policy. We document enough to aid in the build creation process, enough that newer users won't start off by making completely horrendous choices, but, we don't give enough that they can simply copy the build.  They still have to think for themselves, we can just help guide their decisions.  <font color="DodgerBlue">Defiant Elements  (talk ~ contribs) 15:53, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * I guess we'll just have to wait and see how everyone handles this after the build wipe... Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|19px]] 05:27, 30 March 2007 (CDT)

Today?
Supposely this starts going into effect today, and the template doesn't even exist yet. :O -- Peej 14:59, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeh, I noticed that... -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 15:07, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Bump! -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 16:19, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Lazy people!


 * I thought about making it red and shiny like Template:Warning, but was worried that it would look too obtrusive to be on the Main Page. Anyways,  . --Dirigible 16:56, 2 April 2007 (CDT)

Is this ever happening?--Nog64Talk 16:59, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Just posted (by Rainith and Gem). -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 17:08, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Happy now? --Rainith 17:08, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * What the? I posted this on the Community portal page at the same time as Rainith and didn't get an edit conflict. Wtf? --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 17:09, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I blame Jesus.--Nog64Talk [[Image:Yaaaay.png|19px]] 17:12, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I've finally received 'immunity against edit conflicts'? --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 17:17, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * User:Gem/"Coming Through!". :D --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 17:33, 2 April 2007 (CDT)

I am happy now. ;) -- Peej 17:13, 2 April 2007 (CDT)

The rational given for the wipe is that the section is monstrous and elephantine, but there's not really any quick summary supporting this fact for the uninitiated and casual readers. As someone who's seeing the message because it's staring at me from the front page, is there any chance I could ask for a bit more of a summary of complaints to be given? Not that I disagree. 65.95.232.243 17:26, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * The builds section was causing a lot of trouble and a new policy has been under discussion, but none of the suggested policies have gotten community consensus. Thus it was decided to delete everything and start from scratch. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 17:33, 2 April 2007 (CDT)

April Fools Joke?
Is this an April Fools Joke or has this been going on for a while?--Aeris TC 17:28, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * No. The build section may return in the future if a new policy is decided on. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 17:29, 2 April 2007 (CDT)

Silly, just silly
I can almost admit every build section is probably a mess, BUT, the GvG Build section is absolutely top notch. Deleting that specific one would be a loss for the community. As for the others, who cares, people have a skewed perspective on what works in PvE/RA, because anything works. --70.54.9.42 18:22, 2 April 2007 (CDT) Whoops, might help if i logged in. --Narcism 18:23, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Well... NOB (GW:NOB) is probably the policy you would support then. It focuses on retaining non-original builds (i.e. proven) builds based on whether they are commonly run and have name recognition.  The Builds Wipe doesn't mean that we won't have a new build section in the future, just that we want to start with a clean slate.  <font color="DodgerBlue">Defiant Elements  (talk ~ contribs) 18:35, 2 April 2007 (CDT)

Uh...I really don't like this.
I don't have nightfall yet and I want to have some good builds for dervishes and paragons. I also want nice builds for boss farming in the future. So basically, this policy is generally "a permnament deletion of all builds." But why delete all builds here, all of the builds i tried in the past are good, can we just only deleted unfavored builds? --Dark Paladin X 19:53, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * If you would have read the Build wipe article you would have noticed that we delete all build to get a clean board on which to start discussing new policies for builds and mke us a better builds section. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 19:55, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Yes, read up,like say....the whole discussion page. I don't run the wiki (obviously), but a lot of the builds submitted were thrown together in a matter of minutes. I don't mean for people to take that badly, and I know many other people have spent hours on end creating, testing, editing, and improving builds. This is to help clean up the wiki, because saying the builds section is huge is an understatement. And, like people have said, if you like a build and use it/may use it, save it or make a template of it on your account. The wiki will likely also run much faster because of deleting around a third (possibly more, possibly less, but that's by my estimation) of the data on the wiki. Also, the builds section isn't being thrown out the window and becoming a memory. It may be back, except in a reverted, improved, and VERY limited form. Nhnowell 20:04, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Very Limited = cookie-cutter builds only. — RabiesTurtle (contribs) 20:12, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Please tell me that this isn't because of the damn official wiki not allowing builds? Force people over to the new site by taking the unique remaining aspect from here?  The whole argument I was given for not having one on the official wiki was that I "could always just look at them on the old wiki" ... duurrr.  I still fail to see that whole problem with builds, even if many are shitty.  They are still reference material for others to look at and get concepts and ideas from.  There are a lot of them?  Big deal.  There are many that don't do well?  So what, let the visitors look at them, try them out to find for themselves.  If they continue to use a crappy build then it is basically their fault.  Removing the entire reference material so we can replace it with the "popular cookie-cutter" builds is ridiculous. So what if a build isn't used by everyone in PvP, variety is a good thing.  I find it amazing that most of those who complain about listing builds because it makes everyone have the same popular build... are the same who say erase them all and put only the "accepted builds".  Ugg.  I am just frustrated because I do find the builds useful as a source to at least get ideas and make my own builds.  And also because it was made so clear on the official wiki that it was ok to not have builds because the old wiki will have them.  Guys, just enforce it on one wiki... not both. — RabiesTurtle (contribs) 20:11, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * This has NOTHING to do with the official wiki. Besides, the official wiki might also allow builds later on. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 20:13, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Lemme repeat that for emphasis. This has NOTHING to do with the official wiki. I'm pushing for high quality content on both wikis. I hope that GuildWiki's builds stance is significantly more permissive than the official wiki, since we have the advantage of shoot-from-the-hip sysops here to take care of obvious crud. &mdash;Tanaric 20:15, 2 April 2007 (CDT)

replacement suggestion
Would it be possible replace the current builds section with more extensive use of general guide type articles like the general minion mastery guide? wouldn't have to be too complicated, just a few basic articles that point out important points of specific tasks as well as common pitfalls. i'm thinking, just of the top of my head, a general tanking guide with special emphasis on positioning, a general healing guide with special emphasis on energy management and how to deal with mass hexes and conditions, and a general farming guide with focus on enchantment based defenses, stance based defenses, and perhaps a list of skills that deal effective damage in a farming situations (assuming a comprehensive list was fairly short). with general articles you get away from arguing over the merits of individual skills and you actually share useful information that readers can use to understand and create their own builds. total disclosure: i only play pve so that's all i am commenting on here. i have no idea if it is possible to use general articles to provide pvp information. tetracycloide 20:09, 2 April 2007 (CDT)


 * You might want to see GW:NOB and Profession guides. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 20:16, 2 April 2007 (CDT)\
 * i think profession guides are very much the wrong approach. the game does not, in any way, require specific professions to complete any one task, what it does require is some essential roles be filled, like damage, healing, and tanking.  the profession guides point out some things you can do with a specific profession but provide very few details on how to do a specific job well.  tetracycloide [[Image:slick.gif|15px]] 20:28, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * The general minion mastery guide is often used as an example and you hsould note that ritualist MMs are very popular too. The name 'profession guide' is pretty misleading imho, it should be 'task guides'. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 20:40, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * that's what i'm saying, pretty much every profession can do more than one job and it doesn't make sense to put the same, or very similar, information on jobs on multiple profession pages. the necromancer profession guide, for example, doesn't have an extensive section on minion mastery it just links to the general guide for it.  the ritualist guide, on the other hand, does have a rather long section on minion boming which would be much more useful if the profession specific language was removed and the information was moved to the general guide.  tetracycloide [[Image:slick.gif|15px]] 20:48, 2 April 2007 (CDT)


 * So edit the guide in that manner to make it better. &mdash;Tanaric 20:50, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Gah... people are being misled by the title... the entire point is to create ARCHETYPE GUIDES. Third time I have said that.  PLEASE read the policy before commenting on it.  <font color="DodgerBlue">Defiant Elements  (talk ~ contribs) 21:57, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * sounds good then, bout time too. tetracycloide [[Image:slick.gif|15px]] 23:57, 2 April 2007 (CDT)


 * The problem I have with this is the same as how the new official wiki works. Sure it is good to have some general explanation of the game and how things work, but the problem is it doesn't go into specific ideas.  For an example, take elite skills.  I and most others know what they are, we don't need an explanation.  Yes, have an explanation in the "starter" section, but when I click on Elite Skills on the homepage I want to see the skills themselves.  On the new wiki I have to go through like 3 extra steps to get to the lists by profession.  By trying to make the wiki so much of a general reference and by only showing the popular aspects, it makes it less usable to the public.  Most players know what an MM is, and even the basic skills.  An article would be nice for the new players, but becomes worthless to anyone who knows the information already.  Build ideas on the other hand can prove useful to anyone who can learn from them. — RabiesTurtle (contribs) 20:17, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * a wiki is always useless when someone already knows the information written within it so i'm not sure what your point is there. you could just as easily argue, for example, that the build section is a waste of space because some of us, like myself for example, don't need it to make an effective build for any situation.  the problem with using actual builds to teach people how to play is that it doesn't teach people how to play, it teaches them how to read a build guide.  an article on how to do a job that leaves specific skill selection up to the reader would be far more useful as a learning tool then simply encouraging people to copy builds and equipment.  tetracycloide [[Image:slick.gif|15px]] 20:28, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * The point isn't that the information shouldn't be there, just that more specific information and ideas should be available for those who already know the general information. No I don't need to look at the general guide anymore, but I do need to look up specifics for the hundreds of skills, armor types, etc in the game.  Specifics is what keeps people coming back, not the general information.
 * The way you answered your second part about the guide being more useful is a bit confusing to me. You are saying that builds force people into one skillset while the guide promotes diversity.  This couldn't be farther from the truth in my opinion.  The guide will describe the use, and give the common skills, beyond that it basically will be saying "go look at the skills yourself".  Sure they can come up with some ideas, but they could have done that on their own.  On the other hand, I am not so full of myself that I am going to believe that I am going to come up with every possible creative combination out there.  I usually custom make my own builds, but browsing the builds from time to time can give me some combinations I never thought about.  This is basically why I think you have it backwards.  Having basic guides of the popular builds giving some common skills does much less for helping players create new builds than having tons of builds with some unique concepts listed. — RabiesTurtle (contribs) 21:09, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Both will exist, see the links at the top of this talk page. -- Peej 21:13, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Then the template needs to be updated because "On May 1, 2007, all articles in the GuildWiki build namespace will be deleted" seems a lot like everything will be deleted and starting from scratch with the new policy. If you mean we can redo the build again with the new policy, you are still talking about hundreds of builds and I am sure thousands of hours put into them. — RabiesTurtle (contribs) 21:16, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * They are both true. Yes all the builds will be deleted, but quite a bit has already been backed up (and there is still a month to go) and will be restored to userspace after we get the new policies in place. -- Peej 21:32, 2 April 2007 (CDT)

Policy?
It seems like all anyone here is concerned about is policy, not the user base. I think there are quite a few users, myself included, who use the build pages, and enjoy creating/modifying builds based on other people's ideas. Erasing all that has been contributed sets a TERRIBLE precedent, and will not cure any 'policy' problems. Rather than confining the issues to a category, now you'll be left with user pages full of builds, and having to decide whether to regulate what a user puts in his/her user space. Had there been adequate communication with the user base concerning this issue, I think a much less draconian solution could have been reached, and we would not be losing the valuable input of many of our contributors. That's my two cents. Telling users to go to gwshack or guru for builds is outrageous - I, like many others, come here because of the professionalism and courtesy (generally) shown to the contributors. To reiterate, in my opinion, this is too extreme, and incredibly foolish. --Zorbonkingofpants 22:35, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * The proposed Post No Builds and No Original Builds policies date back as far as mid-December. -- Peej 22:37, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * If you look at any of the talk pages you can easily see that all discussion was dominated by those supporting this tragedy. Was it ever advertised? No. Except for those who saw the pages in recent changes most people had no idea what was going on in those times. You can't claim there was ever a fair discussion on the subject. Now that its announced theres many objections, but of course it's to late as its already has a date set and a bunch of (insert non NPA violating term here) are going to go forward no matter what.....
 * Was there any intention of actually setting up a final deciding poll for these changes, cause Im pretty sure there would of been a hell of a lot more opposing votes if it were properly advertised. --<font color="Black">Sefre  [[Image:Sefresig.jpg|15px|]] 22:45, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * From the front page of GuildWiki:
 * Policy – Please go over our site policy before you start making contributions.
 * Ignorance of the law isn't an excuse. ;) -- Peej 22:47, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I wasn't directed to it, yet I knew about this since I started contributing. And yes ignorance isn't an valid excuse for almost anything. --Lania Elderfire[[Image:Pinkribbonsig.gif|My Talk]] 22:50, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I do agree that people should be motivated to review policies but I don't think its expected that all users have the time to spend to keep up with these debates. And you do have to admit that most of the policy debate or controversy has been initiated by the people who want to remove builds from the wiki. I also agree with the original poster that it is foolish to compare guildwiki to other build sites as listed in the policy. None of them have the build quality, completeness, professional formatting, level of discussion, specific information, equipment, and other educationally valuable material that is found here. I did make an honest attempt to use these other sites and was not impressed. Because some people can't control their emotions (on both sides), most of the people who use the build section are being penalized. -- BrianG 22:56, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Bullshit, If you want to get technical it clearly states "before you start making contributions.", many users who I'm sure would be opposed to this were already actively involved in the build section when those policies were created. And that is no law....
 * You people make me sick, you are justifying passing this crap because it was never properly advertised and the discussion was mostly one sided, because a couple people never saw the small(and not to easy to find link) on policy page and were not on to see it in recent changes?
 * Lania, ignorance isn't a excuse but taking advantage of peoples ignorance is just plain wrong. I can't believe this is happening on a wiki, of all freaking places.--<font color="Black">Sefre  [[Image:Sefresig.jpg|15px|]] 22:57, 2 April 2007 (CDT)

Keep the Vetted PvE, toss all PvP imo. Caramel Ni 22:55, 2 April 2007 (CDT)

Absolute Absurdity
This is rediculous. I can't believe that you people, the people who I trust to keep this wiki running, would completely tear out a section of the wiki. People have spent hours developing and testing these builds and to take them away is pointless. I am very upset about this (as you can tell), and if you admins decide to take away the builds section, I will stop using this wiki forever. I strongly urge anyone to help fight this deletion. I don't care what the problem is, but there is always a solution. It's not like the unorganizedness of the section is killing anyone, so live with it until a solution arises. If this continues, then on May 1st, you will lose my help, cooperation, and allegiance to this wiki. --Fiz 23:04, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * No offense meant to you, but most of the supporters would be more then glad to see someone opposing this leave the wiki--<font color="Black">Sefre  [[Image:Sefresig.jpg|15px|]] 23:06, 2 April 2007 (CDT)


 * As a creator of builds, it has come to my attention that infact the problem is not the builds, it's the users. Whenever a build hits the stubs or untested, if one user dislikes it ; without testing it or even knowing what it's ever about, starts the unfavored chain. Many users wouldn't have the slighest clue what a good build is about, yet vote unfavored because a build has a flaw. Honestly, the builds section is a complete mess, and the build wipe is needed. The policies seriously need to be re-visted and voting procheures needs to be enforced. Many MANY good builds have been unfavored as a result of clueless users who point out a flaw, then decide the build simply sucks. Althought the build section the main reason most users visit GuildWiki, the wipe is needed. That's just my two cents. Solus  [[Image:SOJsig.jpg|19px]] 23:07, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Builds aren't leaving, just the build section (for now). Anything good is already backed up in userspace, and can continue to be there. -- Peej 23:09, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Please, by moving everything to the user space all you create is a disorganized mess of userpages, the build section was organized. The voting policy is flawed but not the section. Of course it cant be accepted because the mentality of many here seem to be if its (even slightly)flawed destroy it..... See almost every unfavored vote on a build if you want proof, not to mention this page and related policies.--<font color="Black">Sefre  [[Image:Sefresig.jpg|15px|]] 23:12, 2 April 2007 (CDT)

Stop
I am starting a petition to show how many users are opposing the implementing of this so soon. This is not for disagreeing with it but for supporting a pause to slow it down and allow more discussion with more users(on all sides of argument) involved User:Sefre/Build Wipe Petition --<font color="Black">Sefre  23:22, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Pardon me for asking what nmay be a stupid and/or irrelevant question, but... Isn't "slowing things down" how we got in this mess?  Nobody wanted to do anything for a year, so nothing got done? --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]]    23:34, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * The mess was created when this was proposed, refined, and (soon to be) implemented without the proper user base having a fair say. --<font color="Black">Sefre  [[Image:Sefresig.jpg|15px|]] 23:37, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Other problems with the petition: people will sign without reading all of the proposed policy changes and people will sign without any better idea on build cleanup, which really proves nothing. If you want to start a "come-up-with-better-policy-in-30-days" challenge, I'm cool with that. ;) -- Peej 23:38, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * You want what I think is a good idea? Stop this wipe, clean up the new mess in user pages. And get attention to the real problem here.--<font color="Black">Sefre  [[Image:Sefresig.jpg|15px|]] 23:40, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * How many more chances does the "proper user base" want? This discussion has been going on for (what?) a year now. What more does this user base you've been in contact with want to say? - [[Image:Candle.jpg|12px]] Krowman (talk • contribs) 23:45, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeh. Ignorance is not an excuse. You had a little less than a year to have your fair say, Sefre; that's how far back this discussion dates. The people most concerned monitored discussion on the matter, and kept with the times. Tanaric and others have waited months on end. If you had started your petition, say, in December, it'd have more effect; but this is it. Tanaric gave us the chance to fix our build section, and we failed. So, he's using the rights entrusted to him to demolish the build section. The time has come for change, and since we failed to enact change ourselves, change is coming whether we like it or not. It's too late to bitch. It's time to accept change and try to make the best of what we left for ourselves. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 23:48, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I have to agree with Auron and Krowman. While no one can question my dedication to the build section, we tried, we failed.  It's done.  Attacking the Build Wipe should no longer be our focus, rather, we should be focusing on making the new section work.  <font color="DodgerBlue">Defiant Elements  (talk ~ contribs) 23:50, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Peej, I have already drafted a "come-up-with-better-policy-in-30-days" proposal, and it can be found here: User talk:Defiant Elements. It was just an exercise I did to show an example policy that would be better than the current one, but I'd gladly submit it to such a contest. Everyone keeps saying the builds are just going away temporarily, but trust me, they would not go to the trouble of copying all builds to userspace and risk having to copy them back again if they didn't expected the policy was going to be a lot more like NOB. -- BrianG 23:52, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Krowman, you know very well that all these discussions have been dominated by certain users all with a very similar intent. It has been dominated by those who don't spend their time making the very builds this wants to uproot. If this were to be properly advertised to the rest of the wiki then I can assure that there would of been many objections in the year before. But no, it was all in one line(occasionally) in recent changes and in one link in the policy page(that isn't the best resource itself). If all the build authors had been aware of these changes then there would be more opposition. I am trying to represent the wiki's build authors which were left out and were rarely even aware of the conflict. And people here seem to denounce any that speak up, see the above 2 sections.--<font color="Black">Sefre  [[Image:Sefresig.jpg|15px|]] 23:53, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Do your homework m8. Many build authors are on board. DE must make more builds than anybody else, and he's all in favor of rebuilding the system. - [[Image:Candle.jpg|12px]] Krowman (talk • contribs) 23:57, 2 April 2007 (CDT)


 * That means what, he can't have any opinion because DE makes builds? I make builds, So Auron don't talk. Understand my point? Solus  [[Image:SOJsig.jpg|19px]] 00:01, 3 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Petitions are like voting. To hell with that. Just like voting, it's completely backwards and completely against the idea of a wiki. You want someone else to do things for you while you can just sit back and demand? Go to Guru/Gwshack/etc etc. This is a wiki, if you want something, you do it yourself. If you want a Builds section, you find a way to have it here. After a year, you're being given one more month to get something done. GO! Work on it! Don't waste time with ridiculous petitions which amount to practically nothing. Don't threaten with "oooh, the wiki is going to crash and burn" (if I only had an ecto for every time that's been said on this wiki since it was first started by people not getting what they wanted). Kudos to Defiant and Vallen and everyone else who are actually working for it, who are bouncing around ideas and trying to come up with solutions, instead of just bitching about it without even making the slightest attempt to understand what brought this mess on. Your "ooh, the Man is keeping us down, we're being treated unfairly, poor little us" impresses no one. Crying is nothing. Whines are nothing. Threats are nothing. Effort is everything. You and everyone else that want a builds section, prove that such a section can be viable on a wiki, prove that there is a way to overcome all the deficiencies of this version, present to the community a sensible way to implement builds. Or alternatively keep whining, watch it all burn in flames. Your call. --Dirigible 00:04, 3 April 2007 (CDT)


 * I'll give a summary of that.


 * You want a build section, stop making petetions and find a way in which a build section in exist. Solus  [[Image:SOJsig.jpg|19px]] 00:08, 3 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Dirigible, I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm doing both. Voicing my opinion in opposition (nothing wrong with that), but also helping bounce ideas around with the people you mentioned.  Just because some people like me realize it is inevitable and are working on alternatives, doesn't neccessarily mean we agree with what is happening. -- BrianG 00:23, 3 April 2007 (CDT)