GuildWiki talk:Community portal/Archive 17

BeastInfobox system revamp
Proposal: turn it semi-similar to how the skill system works, so that non-creature articles that talk about creatures can easily provide more information (that don't need to be synced).


 * Stuff we'll want to keep track about all Creatures
 * Everything currently in Beastinfobox
 * If it's Ally, Enemy, or Other (there are some you cannot attack and cannot heal)
 * If it's boss or not
 * A list of locations appears in
 * Skill Bar (separate entries for Normal mode vs Hard mode)

Articles about locations can then pull the monster's data (in either a table-row format or a bullet-list format, or something else) easily. And other types of articles may create custom formatting templates for their usage too.

-User:PanSola (talk to the ) 22:37, 29 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Good idea - potentially a whole lot of work, but potentially extremely useful. Some of the work could be handled by a bot - taking any existing categories/skillbars and turning them into parameters in the existing BeastInfobox, then taking the box and moving it to a subpage.  This is obviously one of your "troublemaker" ideas that will require 7-14 days of discussion first. ^_~ &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 04:24, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I was thinking along the same sorts of lines. Its been a while now, so mind if I start? &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png|Hello]] Warw/Wick 06:30, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Third warning, it has been over a week. I will start in Two Hours unless there are any objections raised. :) &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png|Hello]] Warw/Wick 14:38, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It's been a week since Pan proposed it, you just saw it today. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 14:41, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, I said it about a week ago I think. Though what I said was moved to the archive. I saw this when Pan proposed it. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png|Hello]] Warw/Wick 14:43, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That doesn't appear to be the case. It's Pan's proposal, get the go-ahead from him (or possibly her, still not sure) before you start anything. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 14:46, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I said it before noticing pan's statement, but I've known this was here for a while. And pan is a guy. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png|Hello]] Warw/Wick 14:47, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Is that so? Fascinating. Well, I'm going to bed. Good luck with the creature skill template thing. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 14:48, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The proposal is to design the box first. ONCE the box is designed, we should go through a separate process to make sure the community likes the box designed.  As for the statement that I'm a guy, you might want to refer to double check against my user page on GWW. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 15:35, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You know how there's an auto-category for the skill box? Like if you put "skill type = enchantment" then it will automatically go into the enchantment category. We should do this for the monsters, for things like species, profession, location, etc. --Macros 16:27, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

New Effect box template
Somewhat related to the BeastInfobox revamp, I would like to propose adding an "Effect box" template to all Effects. This will be similar to the Skill box template, except it would, obviously, provide different info other than full/concise descriptions.


 * Info we'll want to keep track of on all Effects:
 * Type (see subcats of Category:Effects)
 * Campaign
 * Location, for localized effects (e.g. Realm of Torment explorable effects)
 * Consumable or Bundle item, for effects granted by items
 * Faction or god that grants it, for Blessings/Bounties

Unless anyone wants to make QRs for effects, I don't see any need to export this to subpages, like we have for skills. Also, for Consumables effects, one idea I had is to include the effect on the item's page, like I've done for Drake Kabob. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 04:24, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Category:Effects makes sure this page isnt added to the "effects" category. Note the first colon. Changed it for you :) --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 10:29, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Bah! :P But do you have any comments about it?  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 14:04, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Looks good to me. So long as it wouldn't get in the way of any other page layouts we use on those pages, right? All we have currently is a little image of the effect icon, which isn't much. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> .cнаt^  14:33, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Muahahaha, you're gonna get in some serious trouble with this...[[Image:Ereanorsign.jpg]]reanor 15:18, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Welp, tomorrow will be seven days since I posted this, so I'll assume no one has any strong objections to it. I'm going to go ahead and start adding it where needed. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 19:41, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Learn from that first.[[Image:Ereanorsign.jpg]]reanor 20:49, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * * grumble, grumble* Why didn't you just link that in the first place, instead of making that inane "getting in trouble" comment?  /troutslap  >.>  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 22:20, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * So you could realize it yourself.[[Image:Ereanorsign.jpg]]reanor 01:12, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Without ever looking at that, I actually had already included ~95% of what's in GWW's Effect infobox. They have a more effecient way of assigning categories, though, and a couple other things I hadn't thought of, so it was still useful.
 * It seems like the only real contention there was over what to call the Sunspear/Lightbringer/EotN effects you get from people at res shrines that give you points toward a title track for killing things. I believe the consensus here is to call them bounties, cf. Kurzick/Luxon bounty, Sunspear/Lightbringer bounty and Eye of the North reputation bounties.  They are blessings, yes, but they are a special sub-type of blessing because of the points-for-killing-stuff effect.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 01:53, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

A couple quick things related to categories before I go to bed: &mdash;Dr Ishmael 05:49, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I know I made a lot of redlink cats just now, I'll deal with them tomorrow.
 * What is the deal with ? The in-game term is Environment Effect, so why does the cat have two extra letters?
 * GWW mysteries, there are many similar cases. Just do it they way you feel it's best before someone starts arguing against you with non-sense and slows you down.[[Image:Ereanorsign.jpg]]reanor 06:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Grammatically speaking "Environmental effect" is the right form. That wording is also used internally by ANet, as evidenced in all of the Game link: pages for this kind of skills that Mike O'Brien exported to the wiki, such as this; all of them have the comment "this is an environmental or special skill". So at the very least, using those additional two characters, -al, is not incorrect. --Dirigible


 * But, lower case and singular are preferred --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 08:58, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Singular? Most categories I've seen are plural.  Category:Bounties, Category:Templates, Category:Skale_Bosses, etc.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 14:48, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Then I suggest to not bother with singular :P --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 14:50, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * In-game terms are also title-cased, Category:Enchantment Spells, Category:Dual Attacks. Since the description for a number of Environment Effects (those that don't call themselves Signets or whatever) do use that exact wording and case, that's why I was using it.  I agree that "environmental effect" is the grammatically correct form, and if we're talking about them generally that's what I'd use, but not for the category.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:08, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Still, Environmental is the proper adjective form. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 16:27, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Further discussion
I have finished adding the effect box to pretty much all Environment Effects, Disguises, and Blessings, as well as the EotN bounties and bonuses (which needed major cleanup/fleshing-out anyway). I've got a few questions before I continue:

&mdash;Dr Ishmael 23:24, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) The SS/LB bounties are each formatted so that part of the page (the gray box with the icon) is an inclusion into the main article. Should I:
 * 2) *wrap that bit with &lt;includeonly>, then add the effect box?
 * 3) *subst: them into the main article so I can replace the individual articles with the effect box?
 * 4) *leave them as is?
 * 5) The Conditions are already formatted nicely, and I think I'd mentioned above that I feel hesitant to change them. The concise descriptions need to be added regardless, as they give the exact numbers of the condition, and the effect box provides an easy way to do this.  It would also add a degree of consistency to the effects in general.
 * 6) There are a number of... "skilfects" which are currently formatted as skills, but are actually effects. Some of the more obvious ones I've gone ahead and reformatted, but others I've left alone for now.  Let me know if you oppose these (and others I may come across) being changed to effects:
 * 7) *Mursaat Tower (Skill)
 * 8) *Lucky Aura
 * 9) *Lunar Blessing
 * 10) *Spiritual Possession
 * 11) *Sugar Rush
 * 12) *Sugar Jolt
 * 13) *Battle Cry
 * 14) *Melee Defense Zone
 * 15) *Elemental Defense Zone
 * 16) Finally, consumable effects. This was brought up below, but there haven't been many comments on it.  I agree with the logic that there really isn't a need for a separate page for the effect, especially when they have the same name (Armor of Salvation, Candy Corn, etc.).  This has also been discussed elsewhere - Birthday Cupcake (effect) has had a merge tag for over a year now, and there were three users supporting the merge, with no one outright opposing it.  Since there has been past discussion on this, I'm only going to wait until Monday for any further comments.  Of course, this then begs the question: do we need a separate category for consumable effects if we're going to keep the consumable and the effect on the same page?


 * Alright then, time to start adding consumable effects. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 19:05, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Naturally, right after I start I'm struck by a better idea that can satisfy both sides: leave the effects articles, and include them into the item articles. The only complaint there would be the formatting of the item article, but I'll leave that to someone with a better eye for design.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 20:32, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Remember the page "Titans get plus health regen and set enemies on fire each time he is hit"?
I found on the official Wiki. Poke found it in the gw.dat file, and modded it into a skill bar. Respective [http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Titans_get_plus_Health_regen_and_set_enemies_on_fire_each_time_he_is_hit. pages]. This is also linked from the Titans blahblah page. Found it rather interesting, perhaps have some mention of it? --- -- (s)talkpage 05:23, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I found those (and about a hundred more like them) when I parsed out the unicode files in gw.dat to get the concise descriptions for monster skills and effects. BAMPH!! is in there (desc: BAMPH!!), along with:
 * "Fake Spell": Fake spell just to show casting animation and maybe effects.
 * "Rurik Must Live": Buff placed on Rurik that prevents him from dying for 5 minutes. (I don't think this one ever worked as intended >.>)
 * "Summoning of the Scepter": The Margonite utters words in an ancient tongue, and the ground beneath him begins to shiver and crack. (probably used for The Cold Touch of the Past)
 * "Exposed Underbelly": While on your side, you take +X damage when you take damage, where X is twice your level. (Siege Turtle)
 * Those are a few of the highlights. If anyone wants, I can post the complete list.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 05:54, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * This is one of the reasons that monsters don't have a full skill bar. Some slots are occupied by these buffs. We could make pages for these skills, but... &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 11:00, 2 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The Margonite Paragons (stupid names they have>.> ) in the DoA have 9 skills, so I think they buffed Nightfall-and-further monsters with a greater skillbar :) But I oculd see this as being the reason Proph/Factions monsters have so little (and mediocre) skills. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 12:27, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Margonite Anur Runds have 7 skills, including Enraged :o And I heard Gaile or some other developer say a long time ago, that some special monster buffs have to occupy a skill slot. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 16:46, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Proffesions
(I'm also going to mention this on GuildWars Wiki.) What if for all of the proffesions pages we also name all of the heroes that have those proffesions, like for Necromancer it would be Olias, Master of Whispers, and Livia.--‎ Fire  Tock  14:20, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Should we also list every NPC and monster that holds that profession? [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 17:35, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It's kinda useless to list heroes there, cuz, like Felix said, you could list all NPCs and monsters from the game there as well.... Why not even add all the player names from all of GW too? &mdash; eX tinctioN 18:58, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

The profession article should probably link to the corresponding category, which should then subcategorize. -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 03:09, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Non-orphaned articles
I wasn't sure if I should put this directly into the GuildWiki: namespace, but I've created a page to list all the "modular" articles, those that are only linked to as transclusions, in order to clear out Special:Lonelypages. If no one minds, I'll move this out to in a couple days. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 23:29, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Some of the armor pages are in fact junk pages. They are remnants from some long forgotten armor gallery set up. I'd have to go through them to figure out which are which but usually anything with /ascended or similar is old. The setup to a mainspace page is a semi-useful idea. Just stuff that shows up in transclusions not actual orphans right? &mdash;<font color=#ff44aa>♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 07:20, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That was my thought: non-orphaned images is primarily for images that are linked to by text links only, so non-orphaned articles would be primarily for articles that are only transcluded. The purpose of both being to "fix" MediaWiki's error in calling them "orphaned" when they're actually being used.
 * I figured there were a few junk pages in there - found a few obvious ones where an NPC's name was misspelled, then corrected, but the misspelled module wasn't deleted. I didn't feel like checking them all at the time, but they definitely should be checked.  I can add that to my to-do box.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 14:08, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Moved. I even went to the trouble of adding navbars to each section so it would be easier to look at.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 14:28, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Effect or effect?
Here is an article with a capitalized E in effect

Here is one with lowercase e.

Urn of Saint Viktor (effect)

Which way is correct?Guild44 14:23, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh dear. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 14:25, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Its kind of annoying when you want to find an effect page and you have to type it in twice if you don't get your capitalization right...Guild44 14:26, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Special:Search/(effect) indicates that (effect) seems to be used more often than (Effect), so it would be more efficient to change them all to lowercase. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 14:28, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * This could take forever! We would have to change all the links and stuff too....Guild44 14:30, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * This looks like a job for Ishmael. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 14:31, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I thought I could save the day by going in game and grabbing a hold of both items in Sunjiang District. Well, I was mistaken there, as the game does not use the term effect at all.  So would we go by GW:ULC? -- [[Image:Isk8.png]] User:Isk8  (T / C)  14:33, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep, that seems to be the proper thing to do. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 14:35, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I think all the effect pages should be merged with the main page. Theres nothing thats said on the effect pages that cant be easily said on the main page. Like the items effects, http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Birthday_Cupcake_%28effect%29
 * I think the only effect pages that should stay are the Environmental Effect Pages.(are the even called that in the game?) Guild44 14:51, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, there are a number of effects with the type "Environment Effect" in the game - two examples off the top of my head are Approaching the Vortex and Thirst of the Drought. Regarding capitalization of (effect) for article names, it should be lower-case, as there is no simple "Effect" type in-game.  There's a similar bot task already proposed for ULC-ing categories, it wouldn't be hard to write a script to do the same for articles.
 * As for merging effect pages with the item pages, I tested doing that on Drake Kabob. If we can get consensus on it, I'll do the same for all consumable effects.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:27, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I rather like the combined look, and it could help prevent confusion on items, ie: people wouldn't have to go to a 2nd page in order to see what the consumable item does. I vote to go for it. -- [[Image:Isk8.png]] User:Isk8  (T / C)  02:08, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to begin renaming pages that use "(Effect)" to use "(effect)" instead, since that isn't exactly a 'disruptive' change. I'll wait a bit longer for any more comments on the doubling up of consumable items with their effect. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 15:52, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks like there were only three, which have been fixed: Spear of Archemorus (effect), Energy Drain (effect), and Depths of Madness (effect). Let me know if there are any others, or if I missed anything when I moved them. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:04, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Possible new categorie in Game play types?
Not sure I this goes here on on the main page disscusion. Anyway I think we should have a categorie in Gmae Play types called User Created Mini-games that could archive mini-games created by users to play in a guild hall. What do you guys think?Mr Prash 22:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You mean things like Dodgeball? That thing has a category, and is alone in it... I'm unaware of any other minigames besides rock/paper/scissors and dice rolling. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 00:29, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


 * They have football to.Mr Prash 19:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Poki's point is that we already have a category for these scrimmage games. If you want to create articles about other games, go ahead - they can all go in that category.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 19:29, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Strategy Guide
Check this out... Amazing, i didn't think it was possible. But, remember, it was made, and was last edited in 2005. Also, there's two more. Wow, just wow. And, it gave me an idea. If we cut and paste all of the walkthroughs from each primary quest and mission, put 'em in order, we can make a strategy guide for everything.--‎ Fi</tt>re</tt>  To</tt>ck</tt>  01:52, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * <--2005
 * <--2006
 * <--2006
 * We already have all that information as far as I can tell, and it's up to date with updates, since those are ancient. They're basically the Prima Guide --Gimmethegepgun 02:06, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Was he joking or.....?--[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 02:16, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * OMG!! O_O Apathetic Aardvark does a guide for like every stinkin' game ever made! (The FFVII one is pretty good, though :P)  I wonder if this guy ever meets real people... O_o RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 04:14, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * What Gep said - we've got all of that content already, and we keep it up-to-date. Also, we have it broken up into individual articles, which IMO is much easier to navigate.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 05:35, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That guy is a pretty good and thorough guide writer, as I can attest from his work on many many other games. :) Still, I seriously doubt there is anything worth salvaging from those rather old guides, that we don't already have here somewhere. By the way, GameFAQS > CheatCC. Plagiarism is always ftl. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:57, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You miss understood, i was trying to say two different things, 1. Look, a guy ACTUALLY WROTE a strategy guide for Guildwars, i thought it was impossible. 2. I have an idea, what if we took all of the information from the walkthroughs from the primary quests and missions, from gwiki (not those strategy guides above) and made a strategy guide from copy and paste.--[[image:"Burn Baby Burn!".jpg|19px]]‎ Fi</tt>re</tt>  To</tt>ck</tt>  15:12, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Because its copyrighted to him.. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 15:13, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Still, the question is why? What good does that have above the mission and primary quest articles that each contain walkthroughs.--[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 15:15, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * uh. FORGET THE LINKS I PUT ABOVE!!! FORGET THEM! THEY DONT EXIST!!! THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT I"M SAYING!!! Just ciopy and paste all of the walktrhoughs from the primary quests and missions from here. Gwiki. RIGHT HERE ON THIS WEBSITE and put them into a strategy guide.--[[image:"Burn Baby Burn!".jpg|19px]]‎ Fi</tt>re</tt>  To</tt>ck</tt>  04:11, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * He's saying we should print out and sell Guildwiki as a strategy guide.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]]<font color="#4682b4">Entrea  <font color="#4682b4">[Talk]  04:27, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * We would have to give attribution to every single contributor to every single article. &mdash;<font color=#ff44aa>♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 05:00, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * If you are going to play guildwars when you already have a computer with internet, why not just log into Guildwiki rather then pull out some printoff?--[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 05:01, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think he's saying we should "sell" a GuildWiki-based strategy guide so much as just make it available. But still, why?  The entire point of having the wiki format is to have extensive linking between articles so you can cross-reference information quickly and easily.  Condensing the wiki into the plain-text GameFAQs-style walkthrough would remove that ease of access to information.  Not to mention you'd lose all the images and tables, too, and someone would have to responsible for revising it due to game updates.  I just can't see the point of doing this.  But, if FireTock wants to, I don't see any reason to stop him, as long as he follows our CC BY-NC-SA license.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 05:07, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No! We dont print out and sell anything. WE just do something like this..., and put in the walkthroughs from mission pages and primary quest pages we ahve on this website. like from Jennur's Horde. We dont print it out, all we do is make a strategy guide so people dont have to constantly go to missions, they just go to the Strategy Guide then they read what it says.--[[image:"Burn Baby Burn!".jpg|19px]]‎ Fi</tt>re</tt>  To</tt>ck</tt>  15:47, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That seems self-defeating... if you want to put it together, I guess... --<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="Steelblue">Shadowcrest  16:27, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * What's wrong with using the individual articles? The Mission overview articles already index every primary quest and mission in each campaign, each quest/mission article links to the preceding and following quest/mission, and we have navboxes on the mission articles so you can easily flip between missions.  On top of that, the "strategy guide" articles would be HUGE  (many of the mission articles are already at or near 32 kB) and would require duplication of effort whenever anyone changed something on the original articles.  I'm afraid I still don't see how doing this would benefit anyone.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:52, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

reset I really don't see why anyone wants to do this except the sake of saying that we have a strategy guide that will be obsolete with the next major update. The individual articles have the most up-to-date information. If you want to make a guide that badly, just make a list of links to those articles in a gameplay progression, or make a page that does the "include" code from all those missions, and update the mission pages with with "noinclude" code for the stuff we don't want duplicated. But still, waste of effort IMO... It would still take a day and a half to load with how wikia is handling things at the moment... RoseOfKali 15:05, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, the Mission overview already does the former. I don't think anything more than that is needed. O_o RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 19:08, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

This could be done via of EVERY mission page. This would take minimal setup, reduce "actual" page size, and make a much less cluttered page. It would also update if any one mission guide was changed. HOWEVER, this page would be massive and probably not load properly, etc. (T/C) 04:27, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, the massive part is exactly the part that creates a problem. A massive problem.  It would be more frustrating trying to load that page (likely unsuccessfully) than finding the single article you need.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 06:27, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

The benefit of submitting a properly attributed Guildwiki Strategy Guide to diverse FAQ websites is that people who go to these websites first for game tips get to know about Guildwiki. They can print out that guide to have it beside their computer, and they'll know to look up additional information on Guildwiki, which they may not have known about. So it'd be a great publicity feature for Guildwiki, and it'd be useful for those people who like to have printed docs. To fulfil the copyright requirements, the license from Copyrights would need to be included, and absent any specific instructions on this wiki on how the sources are to be credited, I guess it would be enough (is it?) to cite Guildwiki as the source, listing the source articles and the dates they were taken. If I had the time (which I don't), I'd just go ahead and do it, posting the guide here for two weeks collecting comments and then getting it on as many FAQ sites as I could.(mendel 84.128.201.167 06:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC))

Screenshot licensing
I've been uploading some armor images today and using the drop-down menu to select "Screenshot" as the licensing option, but when the image is saved, the licensing does not show up. I've been having to put it in manually by using Edit>Screenshot template, which is really really annoying when you do a lot of images in a row... >_< Is it broken? O_o RoseOfKali  16:03, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I notice this as a bug whenever uploading a new version of an image. The drop down works for new images, but only intermittently works for new versions.  (been helping you with the tagging :P) -- [[Image:Isk8.png]] User:Isk8  (T / C)  16:04, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Exactly, I just realized that too, this happens only when uploading a new version. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 16:11, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It doesn't work intermittently when updating an image, it's rather logical. If the image had licensing before, it will keep it, if it did not, it will not get it, even if you selected it in the dropdown.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 16:43, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

pvp versions of skills
how do we want to show the pvp versions? My preference would be to NOT have a different page for teh skills but include the info the same way. For things like qrs which version do we show? lots of things to consider for this. &mdash;<font color=#ff44aa>♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 23:36, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Couldn't a table-thing be created, much like the 'Concise Descriptions' table-thing? Something like, Aegis (PvP Version):  15e 2a 15r. [[Image:Maui_sig.png]] 23:41, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That would probably be best.--[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 01:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It would probably be best, but so far we don't know exactly how this whole pvp oriented changes will roll out. Hopefully, as has been said by Anet, there will be as little skills changed as possible.  Also, if we roll it out like the concise descriptions, I feel that the articles could possibly seem cluttered a bit.  Just my 2 cents. -- [[Image:Isk8.png]] User:Isk8  (T / C)  01:23, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The idea I had was to have a bar separating any variations in costs/casts/recharges for PvE/PvP versions in the template on the right, and for any variations in description/duration/damage/whatever in a table, like the concise descriptions. I'm trying to design a version of it in my userspace, but I'm having a hard time of it. --<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="Steelblue">Shadowcrest 01:33, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You mean something like my version of Energy Tap here? I can't quite figure out what to do for differing green numbers, though... &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 01:35, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * For one thing, we couldn't roll it out like the concise descriptions because only a very few skills will be split - whatever formatting we put in the Skill box for the PvP version info would have to be hidden for all other skills. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 01:35, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Once again, Dr ishmael beats me to stuff, lol. I got a description to work though- if it was included in an if-statement, it could work. User:Shadowcrest/skill box test/Aegis is what I came up with. --<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="Steelblue">Shadowcrest  01:49, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * side note: You can check what skills will be changed here: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Developer_Updates &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 05:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Wow, we've currently got three different people working on three different ways to deal with this. Wouldn't it be better decide which solution would work best before someone gets disappointed that all their work went to waste? &mdash;Dr Ishmael 00:30, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) Update to include the different PvP data (Shadowcrest)
 * 2) Add a table below the existing Skill box to denote the PvE/PvP differences (Taki)
 * 3) Split the PvE/PvP versions to two separate articles (Alari)
 * If it is feasibly possible to fix Template:Skill box to only display the additional content if there is a different PvP skill, then I would opt for the version in my namespace. If that isn't possible, splitting the pages would be my second choice. --<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="Steelblue">Shadowcrest  00:34, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, before I actually waste more time on this can anyone tell me if there is a code like but where you can cut off part of the page name, for example Name of Page/Sub Page where I want only the Name of Page part? --[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 00:39, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * , see MetaWikiPedia:Help:Magic_words for more info. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 00:42, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm thanks but unfortunately that wont work in my test, would have to test in the main space, in theory it should work tho...--[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 00:45, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Alright here here is my proposal, if someone could get the boxes to be on the same line I would greatly appreciate it because I am stumped. --[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 01:44, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * How about we just use a different template for PvP skills? It would be a little harder to work out, but probably simpler to code.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]]<font color="#4682b4">Entrea  <font color="#4682b4">[Talk]  02:53, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * What about how in the armor art gallery template (sorry, not sure how to link it) you can use a "switch" to include earrings/headgear if there is one, or put "zero" to omit that entirely, could that method be used to "omit" PvP skill version in a skill box if there isn't any? Either that, or I'm a complete idiot and don't understand how that switch works. O_o RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 04:16, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Shadowcrest's update to Skill box would do a similar thing, it would use the presence of any PvP parameters (pvp_description, pvp_energy, etc.) as the switch to display the PvP-specific sections. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 04:30, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Not saying we have to follow what GWW does, but they are using the split-article solution: GWW:Blinding Surge, GWW:Blinding Surge (PvP). This makes sense to me in that it mirrors the in-game mechanics - the PvP versions are actually different skills with different skill IDs (they're at 2852-2880). On the other hand, I like the idea of being able to display the info for both versions using the same Skill box template. One problem with that is the need to show progression tables for both versions, which would clutter up the page. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 04:34, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I would argue against using separate pages, because that duplicates the aquisition information. You don't actually have to aquire that skill twice! (A redirect from the PvP name to the non-PvP name would be appropriate for people coming from the other wiki, though.) For a skill like Lightning Orb, only the description need change, because of the cracked armor. Shadowcrest's skill box looks fine (though I'd have gone for adding a second (reduced) skill box below the other with just the (PvP) name and the PvP stats on it, but omitting the campaign info). For those skills that need it, we could add a PvP Details section that lists the differences, but I think if it's just abbout putting in a second damage table, that wouldn't even be needed. This also makes it easier to see at a glance what the differences actually are; switching back and forth between two pages to find that out seems awkward to me.(mendel 84.128.201.167 06:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC))
 * In my humble opinion, we should edit the skill box template and have everything in one place. Just make it not viseble if there's no other version (a switch or a new template like Template:Skill box PvP) &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 06:43, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Just my two cents: Split them, a separate PVP and a PVE page. You can still link them with each other and explain that PVP skills will be acquired if the PVE skill is capped or something like that. I think visitors will understands this quickly. The Advantage of splitting is that you don't know how big these changes will be. For now, they might differ a bit, but what if that will change, like a bug in de PVP version and not PVE ? Or mention of possible combo's that are valid for PVP version but not PVE. Or what to do with pages like 'skills that inflict xxx condition'. The only solution to that is to add ' (only in pvp/pve version) ' or ' ..in the pve/pvp version however.... ' everywhere in the notes, description, lists, catagories... It will be a mess. Don't get me wrong, but the 'dual skill' example from Shadowcrest looks confusing already (when do you sac, for the PVP or PVE skill? ) .For that, I can live with the small 'acquisition' disadvantage. IMHO, if *I* read a skill page, I want a quick description what the skill will do, I don't want to start puzzling which description, figures and notes belongs to what. Also, note that there are PVE of PVP only players that don't bother about the 'other use' of the skill at all.-- [[Image:merty_sign.gif]]-- ( talk ) 06:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * We should probably come up with some kind of decision and implement it soon for the skill changes. I've had to revert a few PvP only changes from the articles, and I don't want to keep having to play revert wars if it comes to that.  -- [[Image:Isk8.png]] User:Isk8  (T / C)  22:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I say make them separage skill pages and, by using (#include PAGENAME-PvP) or whatever the real syntax is, include the PvP version into the PvE page, or even just simply link to it and that's it, just to note that there IS a PvP version and that PvP players need to look at that instead of the current page. This way, all the categories/references/etc of the PvE skills stay unchanged. There really is absolutely no way to interlace the PvE skill references with the PvP ones, since some skills cause conditions/effects in only one version of the skill. We will just need to remake all these references into a PvP copy. Thats what I think. Everyone is trying to come up with an "elegant" way to integrate this, and there just isn't one. RoseOfKali 23:16, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You could also create a PvP "switch" in the skill template, so that the PvP skill page will look exactly like a PvE one, but the page address will be Skillname/PvP, and it will link to the Skillname page (I know there's a "magic" word to genericly link to the main address part without the stuff behind the '/'). This checkbox would also place a note in some visible place saying that this is a PvP skill version, and give the link to the PvE skill page.  A second "switch" could also be created to put a "note" on the PvE skill page just to say that there IS a PvP version of THIS skill.  So, switch one is "has a PvP version = 0/1" and checkbox 2 is "is a PvP skill = 0/1."  Just my thoughts.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 23:23, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * has a PvP version = 0, is a PvP skill = 0 >>> normal PvE/PvP skill, no difference
 * has a PvP version = 1, is a PvP skill = 0 >>> "This is a PvE-only skill, for the PvP version of this skill see (PAGENAME)/PvP"
 * has a PvP version = 0, is a PvP skill = 1 >>> "This is a PvP-only skill, for the PvE version of this skill see (PAGENAME-MAGIC WORD FOR JUST MAIN PAGE LINK WITHOUT /PvP)"
 * has a PvP version = 1, is a PvP skill = 1 >>> invalid combination, both notices will appear and hopefully the editor uses "Show preview" and will realize he/she screwed something up.
 * rewrite (mostly copy/paste at this point, as not many changes have yet been made) all quick references for PvP skills, include normal PvE skills if no split is yet made on that skill.
 * RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 23:34, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Or even better, just make one switch, PvP = 0: nothing; E: PvE version of a split skill; P: PvP version of a split skill. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 23:38, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree, this issue is an exception that should be acted on quickly. The easiest solution to implement (I'm not ruling out better solutions later) is to just do what GWW did: create an article for the PvP version of split skills, and put a plain old  (or a custom one like User:Alari/Split Skill) on both versions.  This lets us host the correct content now, and we can still decide on a more elegant solution later, if we feel one is needed. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 00:07, 24 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm currently working on one with an if'd showhide box for both descriptions, but first gotta figure out how to get them to default to "show" --Gimmethegepgun 00:08, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, it's currently impossible to make two or more NavFrames "show" by default, that's just how MediaWiki:Common.js/NavToggle works. The only way is to change the value of   to 2, but that would probably break other pages that only have 2 frames and expect them both to be hidden by default.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 00:24, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) Also, that still doesn't deal with the problem of having to show two Progression tables on the same page. Just look at Blinding Surge and tell me that doubling that Progression box wouldn't look horrible.  If it weren't for that, I think the combined page idea would be great.  We could delve into custom JavaScript and write a function to toggle the entire PvE template and the PvP template on one page, but the need probably isn't great enough for that.  (Of course, if anyone thinks we should try that, I could probably write something in about an hour.)  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 00:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I was working on 1 part at a time, the same thing could be done for the progression boxes. Maybe a new .js thing could be made for skillbox showhide boxes? --Gimmethegepgun 00:52, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I've looked at the progression box for Blinding Surge, and it wouldn't be horrible at all. Just add a row Blindness (PvP) below the existing Blindness row and you're done! (mendel 84.128.204.54 22:56, 24 May 2008 (UTC))

I still believe that if we throw both versions on one page then it will become very cluttered and hard to read. We should come to a decision especially since the coding discussion above seems to be getting very complex.-- 00:32, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Just to throw my two cents in, the skills should be in different articles because they're functionally different. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 00:54, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Most of them share the same effect, differences are the mainly numbers (recharge, duration, costs...). I'm for one page. Splitting just increases the pages, the clicks and the browsing unnecessarily. Comparing is bothersome. Overview on one page is simply done with the table of contents as large articles have too and as new invention maybe a colored frame. I don't like it the way it is now. But I see that putting it on one page can be troublesome (also for the categories, the notes) and without a good thought would end up messy. But roughly maybe like that: http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/1408/gwpvppvemp1.gif (image) --Birchwooda Treehug 20:32, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Caught between a rock and a hard place. The way this is now, you have to look at the PvE page even if you're interested in the PvP skill because you will miss pertinent notes. But duplicating the notes is another pain in the behind that makes editing the wiki just so much more difficult. If the skill box wasn't so heavily coded, it'd be no problem to adapt them (like I suggested above, sometimes it's just adding another line to a table), but then there are advantages to that, too. On another note, who wants to expand the skill article? Look at split skill if you need a rough draft to go from. ;-) (mendel 84.128.204.54 00:14, 25 May 2008 (UTC))

Poll
This is not a vote but a measure of peoples opinions on the matter: How should we seperate PvE and PvP versions of skills? Same article, change the skill box to fit both in Separate articles, add links on top to the skills counterpart


 * The first 7 votes show a preference for split articles, 5-2. I'm not taking that as a final decision by any means, but I am going to go ahead and create the PvP-version articles (I already have the wiki-code for all of them, article and template, in a text editor, so it'll be a simple copy/paste job) just so we can get the info out there.  Like I said above, we can always implement something else later, but I don't think we should wait any longer on working the kinks out of the other solutions.  Also, I just discovered something awesome: we have Extension:StringFunctions installed. \^o^/  I will be using a function from that for the DisambigMsg's on the PvP articles.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 02:52, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
 * /catchbreath Whew, they're all done.  I did them the most basic way possible, using the existing DisambigMsg template for now rather than adapting Alari's.  I think Alari's template is a good idea if we decide to keep the split-article format, but it is currently designed for articles named like "Skill Name/PvP", whereas I named the articles like "Skill Name (PvP)" to match the actual skill names.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 03:36, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That could be fixed easily by changing the /pvp to (PvP) --[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 03:44, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Never mind, my code will not work if the pvp version is not a subpage of the original, if the new pages were moved to Skill/PvP it should work fine.--[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 03:56, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

revised single-page template
User:M.mendel created a nice single-page template. Here's what it looks like:

--<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="Steelblue">Shadowcrest 20:45, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Very nice. (Love the separate PvE/PvP edit links.) There are a couple of things I would request, though. For once, put PvP/PvE in front of the casting stats (energy cost etc. part below the skill image). Also, how is it going to handle progression tables, or will those be removed entirely, since they do not appear here? Trying to implement both will look... a little on the large side? RoseOfKali 21:19, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I assume they (the tables) will be implemented; the PvE/PvP part is easy to put in, but I don't know how it'll look with sac, upkeep, dual, (etc.). --<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="Steelblue">Shadowcrest 21:22, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the box will need to get wider for them. You can even go as far as making little PvP/PvE icons a-la the energy cost blue dot.  Also, the  icon looks like it's imposing over the end of the word Elementalist.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 21:27, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The isn't specific to this template, it's messed up on all ele (and necro) skills, floating above the box.  --<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="Steelblue">Shadowcrest  21:29, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, Necromancer and Elementalist are just longer words, "showcasing" the overlap. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 21:36, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

It's not done yet, people! What you have to realize is that this uses the split skills as they are now, it simply mashes them together so a single template can use all the stats from both (there's energy and pvp_energy, and so on). It needs more testing and then a move over to the main Template: namespace so that all the skills can be accessed - I'm talking about the underlying machinery here, not the looks. For the looks, my templates are set up in such a way that anyone can roll their own display templates for this, in their user space if need be, so it's easy to test and debug. Feel free to improve. There will be docs and help. Give me time. mendel 21:52, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

If we use this can we please get rid of the concise, there's no reason to have the same thing said twice, and on here it is said twice two times... The concise details say the same exact thing as the normal if not less easy to understand.-- 22:35, 27 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I argue that the information about "what the concise description is" needs to be kept. What can be explored is how the documentation of this information is presented on the wiki. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 08:09, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Why? It says the same thing as the regular description, except on the few cases where it has been reported as being erroneous. Before it was a minor annoyance but if we start stacking 4 descriptions one a single page as more pvp/pve splits are added...--[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 14:34, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You're in basic agreement, please wait for a final design before arguing further. There are no plans (yet) to replace the current skill pages. The information itself doesn't reside on the page anyway, it stays in the template (that you reach by "edit skill details"), so it is kept but maybe not displayed on some pages. The concise descriptions might be in a hidden box so that they can be viewed at the click of the mouse, but that is just speculation right now. mendel 15:32, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm working on a solution to toggle full/concise descriptions that will remain persistent for each user - like when you hide the TOC and it stays hidden on all pages you view, once you clicked "show concise" it would show the concise description on all skills you view. It will be a template combined with JavaScript.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:50, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I never noticed the contents do that. That's what we need! Great! Feel free to modify the template in my userspace! mendel 16:02, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I've got it working except for the positioning of the "show full/concise descriptions" link. I have the divs set up in my sandbox and the javascript in my monobook.js (functions createSkillDescToggleButton and toggleSkillDesc) if anyone wants to try and figure it out.  I'll be in a meeting for most of the afternoon.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 18:03, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * That is so sexy :) The link is behind the "Description:" for me, which looks okay. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 18:09, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I got it fixed - the link is now right-aligned, similar to how the "show/hide" links for navboxes that people are used to. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 22:47, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Everything has just gotten simpler: put that on your page, use any skill on the wiki (as long as it's a split skill). Or change the skill here on the page and hit "Preview" (not "Save").

mendel 22:21, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

A New Proposal
I have constructed a method we could possibly use for these situations, and could be used for some other stuff as well. To see it, you MUST copy the stuff below the line here (look for the notice) and look at my second Sandbox (ty M.mendel for deciding to alter your .js, it was VERY useful) --Gimmethegepgun 20:57, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * It's borked for me... I'll upload a pic within the next 5 minutes. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 21:00, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Osht~ forgot a force refresh... Anyways, it reads "PvE DescriptionsPvE Full: For 5...10 seconds, all party members within earshot have a 50% chance to block attacks." It isn't supposed to have "PvE DescriptionsPvE Full", am I right? --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 21:02, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Haven't gotten rid of that part yet, look on the right next to the box itself --Gimmethegepgun 21:05, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Ye, I tested the "links", they work :) It's what Ishy had too, but then for PvE/PvP instead of Full/Concise descr. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 21:06, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I actually based it off of those. It uses cookies too, so it'll stick around the next time you go in --Gimmethegepgun 21:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Since we'd only have PvP descriptions for skills where there actually are differences, then it's not "duplicating content", which was Alari's complaint about showing both the full and concise descriptions. I don't see the need for these toggles.  Good work, though - I think you had the float:right thing figured out before I did.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 22:52, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * With the way I have it set in my template (which isn't really finished), it would only have all this junk set up if there was a PvP version of the skill, and we wouldn't have to duplicate crap like usage notes and stuff --Gimmethegepgun 23:28, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Right, and it wouldn't even show for all split skills, it would only show on those that have some difference in the description - Flesh of My Flesh or Energy Drain, for example, wouldn't have a "pvp_description" because the only differences on them are in energy/cast/recharge, the description is identical. Hmm... I still don't quite understand the benefit of implementing that for such a small number of skills, though.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 00:42, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I've updated it again, gotta recopy the .js to make it work ofc. Now it has a functioning table for both (gotta get some labels in there tho) and the table is tied to the toggle, also it nukes the PvP stats row if it isn't needed --Gimmethegepgun 02:05, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * A programming competition on who codes the nicest dual skill box? on Guildwiki? How cool is that?! mendel 08:39, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

In your sandbox, remember to accommodate ppl without javascript on. -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 06:11, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The reason I require the .js is because if this goes well we can make a new serverwide .js thing to house it so everyone would have it regardless of whether or not they added it to their personal .js --Gimmethegepgun 18:40, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Pan means; notify people on the sandbox page that they need a .js hack to make it worth their while :P --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  18:42, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, what I think Pan means is that some people turn Javascript off by default, so make sure your box looks ok even when it is off. mendel 21:55, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You can't turn off the server JavaScript, if you could then there would be NOTHING! But yeah, added a thing on the bottom. Also, it has been updated again, the show/hide things were moved (they were being buggy, fugly now but whatever) and the table is now "prettyfied" to sync up with the toggles --Gimmethegepgun 22:46, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Depends. Some pages really do turn completely blank when you turn off or block Java. This wiki is not one of those pages :> (PS: NoScript is <3) &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 22:54, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

announcing a new short-term project for ppl to work on
I was going to do it myself the day after, but got distracted by other more pressing matters. It's been 20 days and looks like it won't be until this weekend until I would be able to work on it. So please help out with the project if you got some time to kill, thanks! -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 09:02, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Monster skill updates
As most of you would know, with the arrival of both Hard Mode and Eye of the North many monster pages have a pretty big (and unattractive) skills section. While it still conforms to standards (or something) and gets the job done, I can't help but feel that it's incredibly ugly. After looking at a page like the one for The Judge, I noticed how it has a pretty little box that houses the skill box. I made some mock up examples (under User:Blue.rellik/testMonster) to show how other pages would look like with those skill changes.

Now before I started to start this (immense) project, I wanted to make sure that you guys would agree with how they look, so I'm posting here to ask for some feedback. If you have any specific nigglings with any of those pages then post of the talk pages for those specific mock-up pages - <font color="darkBlue">b.r // <font color="Black">talk  03:20, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Two columns is good. Having the rows do "valign=top" would make it look nicer.  Background feels unnecessary. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 05:12, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I also like the idea of having separate skill sets next to each other and not under each other, but the background clashes too much with the rest of the page IMHO. Also, I think this should be in a template, so any modifications would be easy to implement globally (and we'll have another wiki-killing template, next to the skill box :P) &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 13:11, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmmmmm, I spent a lot of time getting some test pages to work with colour and plenty of guys have been contributing based on the idea that the skill sections will be in colour. I'll make some test pages of the one I currently have up in colour and we'll decide from there which ones we'll use - <font color="darkBlue">b.r // <font color="Black">talk  03:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok I've made some new pages without any colour (grumble), tell me what you think - <font color="darkBlue">b.r // <font color="Black">talk  04:17, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I think it looks better. Now we just need a template and some fine toning. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 13:34, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Toning? Are we gonna work these monster pages into shape or something? XD  Mendel's already made a template, actually (it's linked to and explained on User talk:Blue.rellik/testMonster and a couple of the other talk pages).  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:17, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I think it looks great and I like the color a lot better. What are you doing for monsters that don't have a known professions or just monster skills? (shiro) &mdash;<font color=#ff44aa>♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 17:32, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Since professionless monsters usually only appear in one location (Shiro/Lich being exceptions) and use the same skill set for both NM/HM, I don't see that we'd need to change them at all. If we did add this template to them for consistency's sake, though, they could use the gray s.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 17:54, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

New bot task
The following bot task: Bot tasks/License reminder has been proposed. Before I start it, I would like some more input. The code and stuff has been posted for review. Just posting it here to bring it to attention. &mdash;<font color=#ff44aa>♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 18:44, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Category:Subpages
As a little thing inspired by this discussion, I suggest we create a category for Subpages to keep them out of that list. Basicly, I say we should go throuugh Special:Uncategorizedpages and add to all of the /types, /collector, etc. Any thoughts?<font color="#4682b4">Entrea   <font color="#4682b4">[Talk]  22:09, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Then you'd just be getting a category that is too long to list. Is it too much to ask to use meaningful categories? Category:Collectors/Items, Category:Armor/Male or Category:Locations/Quests, for example? Then you put Category:Subpages on the pages for those categories (I think that's how it works) so we have them collected (in a tree). --mendel 23:36, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * See here. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 23:54, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikibase Templates: Input requested
I have written a longish article on Wikibase, that is, a database implemented on top of the wiki. The skills are such a database right now, and I present two techniques for accessing the data and suggestions for changes that could make it easier to do so. Given that maybe Beastinfo could move to a system similar to skills, and that a Guild Wars 2 wiki is likely in our future, this is an important issue, and I would be happy to have the input of everbody who dabbles in template coding. --mendel 20:38, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Heya--just wanted to give you a quick heads-up that we have the Semantic MediaWiki extension available if you are interested. There are some pretty cool things that you can do with it on a database-oriented site.  Let me know if you would like to have it enabled. --KyleH (talk) 23:18, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Blast, I knew I forgot about something in the midst of the Monaco stuff. I'd meant to ask about that yesterday, but I obviously got sidetracked... >.>  I think that would be a very cool thing for us to use.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 23:24, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you, I'm very interested. I'll certainly look into it once I have the time. --mendel 08:17, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I've been meaning to get SMW for this wiki, but Wikia doesn't support SMW 1.1 yet, which is the version I really wanted (there are sufficient enhancements added to 1.1 that I'd rather wait a bit and get 1.1, as opposed to getting 1.0 first then make the adjustment. Though I didn't expect to have to wait *this* long and still unable to get 1.1 yet... -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 22:29, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The improvements in category structure alone would be worth it to get any version of SMW, I think. --mendel 23:02, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Create A Hero contest
YEAH! It's on, so join join join!...please?<strong style="color: black;">reanor 04:24, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * A Male Mesmer who is not gay? Or a Female Mesmer who is ok up in the head and just below it. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 00:24, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Statistics
I have been looking at some statistics. Of course we have some on Special:Statistics. I have also looked at Alexa, but they have onyl accumulated traffic (eveyrthing at wikia.com etc.). But what bugs me that we are not on Wikia's list of wikis, because that means we don't get listed here (but GWW does). The wowwiki.com on wikia isn't on that, either.

To be honest, I doubt we come in anywhere close to GWW in terms of pageviews - that is just awesome. --mendel 22:40, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Addendum: These are our [raw numbers]. --mendel 07:37, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Guildwiki is #90 on that list--[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 22:43, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Those numbers are probably skewed somehow. The official wiki gets six times the page views of Wikipedia, and only 0.4% of the edits?  Something is fishy there.  This wiki has quite a few more edits than the offical one, for that matter.  Quizzical 22:47, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * That could be true Quizz... but I think far too many of our edits are (user) talkpage. Alot of those numbers do seem a bit off to me. -- [[Image:Isk8.png]]  I~sk8   (T/C) 22:50, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I believe some wikis stop collecting data on their page views and edits (perhaps to give the servers less work), so that data is unlikely to be reliable. -- Dr R. Phalange 22:51, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the data is a year out of date, it seems. Just use Special:Statistics to compare. Remains the question why we're not on s23.org. GWW is pageview-heavy because it is GW's help system, and because everyone who looks at the latest game update info isn't going to edit that (well,unless it's a Nerfbat update again). --mendel 23:12, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The problem is that the source you are looking at relies on Special:Statistics to retrieve pageviews, but the larger wikis out there, including all of those hosted by Wikia, employ caching which prevents most pageviews from ever reaching the MediaWiki software. For example, it takes GuildWiki 3 months to accumulate the total lifetime pageviews reported by Special:Statistics, so using that number for the sake of comparison is very inaccurate.  Unfortunately, I'm not sure where s23.org is getting the list of what they poll, but if you find anything that we can do to get you on the list, I'll be happy to make that happen. --KyleH (talk) 23:18, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the action=raw hint! I posted a request to be added on, so we may be on the s23.org list soon. --mendel 07:37, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I should perhaps note that we are on the s23.org list now. --mendel 20:30, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

There are more statistics: --mendel 21:42, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Wikia has an article that links to http://www.wikia.com/wikistats/ which does not exist, and to http://wikistats.wikia.com/wikistats/EN/index.html, which does and looks similar to http://wikistats.wikia.com/EN/index.html . However, there are no recent statistics for enguildwars. (?)
 * For a few weeks our traffic has been monitored by Quantcast, see here.
 * WikiStats are organized by database name. Normally this is the same as the site name, but in GuildWiki's case, it is "gwguild".  The statistics are here. --KyleH (talk) 22:07, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Official IRC channel
Some of you may have noticed that quite a few Guildwiki Users have taken to chatting on IRC. It requires no registration of any kind and can in fact be used from your browser (sort of). However, if you read IRC, you'll notice there are two IRC channels. Both channels have an active Bureaucrat as sysop (albeit a different one), so it's kind of hard to decide which one the "official" channel is. So here's the Spanish Inquisition poll to stir up settle the issue: Which one is the official GuildWiki IRC channel? channel #gwiki on GameSurge channel #GuildWiki on freenode Neither I don't care about IRC Vote away! --mendel 21:24, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I wasn't even sure as to why Auron created the gamesurge channel, as we had already had freenode setup by RT long before that. But at most we only had 4 or 5 ppl on freenode at a given time. ps. Also, Wikia has a channel on the freenode server, does it have one on gamesurge? -- [[Image:Isk8.png]]   I~sk8   (T/C) 21:27, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Because Gamesurge has many more channels related to Guild Wars, including the most popular Elite Fansite website channel (guildwarsguru), the most popular PvP hangout, and plenty of guild channels. As well as, of course, the channels for PvX wiki and Guild Wars Wiki.
 * Wikia has a channel on freenode... but who cares? I don't generally hang out in tech support channels unless I have a burning desire to get something fixed. If you like that over mingling with the rest of the guild wars community, go ahead. - Auron 21:34, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with Auron. Unless we need to contact wikia for something, it would be better to be centered in a guild wars community area. &mdash;<font color=#ff44aa>♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 21:54, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I feel using freenode would improve our relations with wikia because it proves easier to contact Kyle casually if you're talking on the channel where he hangs out anyway. Most irc clients can manage channels on multiple servers, so the decision for the freenode chat prevents nobody from using the GW community channels. --mendel 13:38, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The same argument could be made against freenode, mendel :P Nothing's stopping us from contacting Kyle even if we have our channel on gamesurge. And that's aside from us being able to post on his talk page regardless :) - Auron 14:08, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't let my presence (or lack thereof) influence your decision too much. If you would prefer, I can leave #guildwiki on Freenode.  By the same token, I already idle on Gamesurge, so if you would want me to join #gwiki there, I'd be happy to.  Just let me know. --KyleH (talk) 16:37, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

At the time of this writing, the voting is 8 for GameSurge, 4 for freenode, 0 for neither, and 7 for don't care about IRC. Also, IRC users have voted with their feet and the freenode channel is now always empty when I check it, while people hang out on GameSurge. I guess this means that #gwiki is our official IRC channel now; feel free to change the Wiki to reflect that. Keep in mind that at least 7 active community memebers don't use IRC (and it is rare that all IRC users are actually online), so please document discussions on wiki when warranted.

There is a Userbox for IRC users that will also add you to Category:Users/IRC when you add to your user page.
 * For the record, I jump on IRC once and a while, and I voted for "I dont care about IRC" :P -- [[Image:Isk8.png]]  I~sk8   (T/C) 12:49, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * So you're saying you want a userbox that says "Has used IRC and will do so again if forced to necessary" or "User may use IRC from time to time"? --mendel 13:04, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * No, neither. I was only commenting on your comment of "Keep in mind that at least 7 active community members don't use IRC..." As in, I use it but still was one of those 7 :P  Besides, I think I have enough userboxes. -- [[Image:Isk8.png]]   I~sk8   (T/C) 13:14, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Afraid of a user box overdose, are you? --mendel 14:22, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Subpage Categories
Special:Uncategorizedpages is currently kinda useless due to all the armor subpages and the like. We already have a Category:Collector subpages, so I say we create the following categories to get all those pages off of there: A bot culd probably go around and tag all of them (making sure to put it in a, since the pages are included).
 * Category:Armor subpages
 * Category:Location subpages
 * Category:Bestiary subpages
 * Category:Quest subpages (for pages like Disruption/Skills, though it doesn't look like there are many of these)

Also, all of the game update by month pages (currently starting at #320) need a category, too. We could either just put them in Category:Game updates or make a Category:Game updates by month or something like that.  &not; Wizårdbõÿ777  ( talk ) 23:37, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * There's already been talk about this, and a bot's been working on it.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]]<font color="#4682b4">Entrea  <font color="#4682b4">[Talk]  23:42, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, the bot only did some of the types of subpages. But another one can be set up.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]]<font color="#4682b4">Entrea  <font color="#4682b4">[Talk]  23:44, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

RFC: Image policy/guidelines
I just posted new versions of Image use policy and Style and formatting/Images. The former contained a good deal of information that I felt properly belonged on the S&F page, which was very incomplete and hadn't been touched in almost a year. What I kept on the policy page I rewrote somewhat to better clarify the reality of how we regulate images here. What I moved to the S&F page I attempted to expand upon to hopefully improve its usability. Comments on both revisions would be greatly appreciated - the organization of the S&F guide, in particular, probably needs quite a bit of work.

I plan on looking over Image license guide as well, but I'm too tired to do that tonight. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 07:00, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * A really quick, not-too-thought-out comment: I like what you write. HOwever, the style change from a more personal, "look this is important" style to a more impersonal, formal style means that social orientation (to be read between, and sometimes on, the lines) got lost. This is probably fitting for a policy, but that may just mean we need a "how to post an image" guide. Or do we? --mendel 07:43, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Take a look at User:Jennalee/Image_creation_guide, although never finished, some of the tips might be handy to know.-- [[Image:merty_sign.gif]]-- ( talk ) 09:31, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * We have the Screen capture guide, which is linked from the S&F page I think, but I haven't really looked at it much so I don't know how good it is. There's also User:Rvngt/RavenGT's Photoshop Tutorials, but that seems more geared towards making fancy character portraits.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:42, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I have now posted a revision of Image license guide. Comments on all three articles would be greatly appreciated. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 04:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Wiki Wedneday, Chicago
Thought I would put this here... but we'd love to see some GuildWiki people from the Chicago area at Wiki Wednesday, Chicago on July 9. If you know of any other wiki people who might be interested in attending, please feel free to pass the link along. The details, for those not on FaceBook are,

If anyone has any questions, my contact info is here. Thanks! --PurplePopple 21:20, 17 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The "wikitable" class doesn't do anything on this wiki, since we historically haven't been particularly interested in trying to mimic Wikipedia d-: -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 21:36, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I am a little confused. I don't have a facebook and have no interesting creating one... so that link does me no good.  What is this all about? Because I do live in the Chicago area. -- [[Image:Isk8.png]]   I~sk8   (T/C) 02:22, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I had a facebook account but I deactivated it to escape the devious applications. I live right outside of Chicago, so... what's going on? [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 02:24, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Copy-pasted from Facebook (and thus not released under BY-NC-SA: Information Event InfoHost:	AboutUs Type:	Meetings - Club/Group Meeting Time and PlaceDate:	Wednesday, July 9, 2008 Time:	6:00pm - 8:00pm Location:	Cosi Street:	116 S. Michigan (near Monroe) City/Town:	Chicago, IL Contact InfoPhone:	18002268887161 Email:	TedErnst@AboutUs.org Description WikiWednesday happens the first Wednesday of the month in cities around the world, and due to the holiday, the 2nd Wednesday in July (July 9th). We'll get together informally to talk wiki, work, life, whatever, and hopefully have a good enough time to decide to do it again. All ages, and free. -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 02:29, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Doesn't seem to be much of anything... doubtful its worth the hour drive. -- [[Image:Isk8.png]]  I~sk8   (T/C) 02:34, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Jennalee asks for help
You may know Jennalee as the person who is contributing huge amounts of beautiful screenshots to the armor galleries and item depictions. However, she can't do that job if she can't find the armor crafters that have the armor she needs. It turns out that a year ago an update changed a lot in-game, and the wiki has never fully caught up. If you want to help Jennalee and make the wiki more complete, have a look at Armor_crafting_project, pick a category from the list at the bottom, and see what you can do. --◄mendel► 12:05, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I was under the impression it was already fixed, good to mention it here. I'll see what I can do.. -- [[Image:merty_sign.gif]]-- ( talk ) 13:03, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it was fixed for the most part. Some armor pages, especially the newbie armor that's available with different AL, might still be outdated, but that's it. I already checked everything Assassin related if you must know, so you can uncheck that. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 15:56, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * A few of them need to have the cost tables reformatted, though, so it's still a good idea for us to check through them all one more time. Specifically, a couple of the Elementalist armor art pages had a headgear column, others didn't have a total column, and a few others didn't include the gold cost in the total column.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:01, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, since we're on the topic, should we or should we not include the total gold cost in the last column? I find it unneeded and think the platinum icon clashes a little too much. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 17:24, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I am copying this section over to GuildWiki_talk:Armor_crafting_project so that people who maybe go there directly (from RC or from irc) can see it. If you have replies that pertain to the project itself, consider posting them there - that saves me further copying. ;-) --◄mendel► 17:46, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

"Minor" edits
I see people flagging multi-kilobyte edits as minor now, e.g. here. But Editing guide states: "As a rule of thumb, if it's an edit that a user who re-reads the page doesn't really gain any new useful information, then it's a minor edit.". What's happening? --◄mendel► 12:52, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Some peoples minor edit buttons are just glued to the ground :P But really, you're linking to a talk page. Talk pages are a bit different the articles. Same with userpages, where most edits should be marked as minor regardless of size. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 14:25, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Have patience with newcomers
The last months I noticed some reverts with rude remarks or just reverts without any remarks of contributions made by newcomers to this wiki. In all cases these reverts are justified, but since this is the first or second post by this contributor, I think we (as community) has to have a bit more patience with newcomers. Doing this, we will scare new, in future possible valuable, contributors away. Of course, I'm not talking about obvious vandalism or child-play. So, my plea is to everyone who is 'guarding' the RC list; please, take a look at the contribution list and give a meaningful response, telling what was wrong and why. Also, it can't hurt to put that on their talk pages to.Newcomers will not think of history or RC lists and might think their addition 'disappeared' due to a bug or wrong click on their site.

Secondly, I propose to create a singel page, explaining the most common mistakes newcomers do, like: Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but I can't find a single page explaining these things. -- -- ( talk ) 12:29, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Adding zaishen chest as drop location
 * Adding common drops
 * Adding skill trainers 'further' in skill trainer path.
 * Adding skill trainers that only have the skill when it was unlocked further in game
 * Multiple reverts, not knowing GW:1RV
 * Adding comments in archived talk pages
 * And so on...
 * I think it should be somewhere in the direction of this. That article should be simple, but could use a re-write/update... &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 20:44, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I do like the ideas that are being batted around here. If I get the spare time, I may just take this task upon myself.  I do know exactly what you mean too Merty... And a cleanup and addition of the how to help article would be the perfect place to put this! -- [[Image:Isk8.png]]   I~sk8   (T/C) 22:26, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * What would also be great is if someone made a bot to post a link to this page on the talkpage of newly-created accounts, if that's possible to do with a bot... That way they will see a "you have a new message" note and actually go read it, maybe, possibly, I think...  And I agree with all this.  I had some rude remarks on my "newb" contributions without much explanation (I even got banned for RV1 having NEVER HEARD of RV1 until afterwards), so we do need to be careful with newbies.  Assume they don't know ANY of the rules until specifically told so. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 23:16, 1 July 2008 (UTC)