Talk:Energy Tap

I was hoping to see this buffed.. useless skill 19:32, 6 March 2006 (CST)

New Progression Tables
Can we please separate the actual parameters from the random statistics? The specific ones posted are fairly useful (unlike some of the old Ollj info that used to litter various pages), but I really would split them off from the actual list of green number values by level. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 17:07, 11 July 2006 (CDT) )
 * Tried it... thoughts, folks? better or worse? &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 17:13, 11 July 2006 (CDT) )
 * I'm torn. Two tables looks A LOT more cluttered to my eyes. Decentralizing information is more work on the eyes and brain. On the other hand, separating out the derived information from the listed skill information is nice. --Kryshnysh 19:51, 11 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I am biased towards my old edit for Energy Drain . Energy gain per second is overly ideal and doesn't scale linearly with the effects of being dazed, interrputed, and the need to kite etc, becauase of initial casting cost.  The two rows above gain per second seem to me are just there in case anyone challenges the math, or to help out people who cannot do simply arithmatics.  If there is any value to those, I really feel they belong to the Notes section and not clutter up the "Main" part of the article. - 20:02, 11 July 2006 (CDT)


 * For what it's worth, I think it looks alot more cluttered with a second table in the notes section. Also, changing it here means creating second tables for all the other energy gain skills that already have the merged information. --Kiiron 21:01, 11 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I don't feel any energy management scales linearly with any of those things you mentioned. I initially thought that putting the second table in the notes would be better too, but it seems to be more of an eyesore to me to split the tables up all over the article. I think the tables are probably best at least together (if not in the same table) or not at all on the same page. I think my preference (biased towards reducing eye strain) is Not on same page > one table > tables together > tables separate places. --Kryshnysh 21:07, 11 July 2006 (CDT)


 * As for presentation, I think I prefer the dual-table progression over split into progression and notes. I dislike the single table.  As for content, I'd be worried people would add in relatively useless or obvious statistics if this starts showing up in a lot of articles.  Personally, I think an energy gained or net energy gained row is a little too far into the latter.  --68.142.14.78 21:16, 11 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I think the extra sections should be removed, actually, because:
 * Energy gained: You only get the full energy if your foe actually has 4-6 energy.
 * Net energy gained: This value is only true if the above condition occurs, and is just the previous cell -5.
 * Energy/Second: all the stuff PanSola mentioned applies. Additionally, this is a Mesmer skill so it's not unlikely that the caster will have Fast Casting to modify the casting time. Overall, there's just too many variable. What if the caster has Mantra of Recovery or Serpent's Quickness? Et cetera. Writing "the skill recharge on this is pretty bad; consider figuring out a way to boost it if you actually want to use this to regain energy" in the skill description is easier than spelling this all out numerically anyway.
 * This is what I want to avoid at all costs. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 22:09, 11 July 2006 (CDT) )
 * ... *looks at Energy Drain* Ugh. The same applies for all other energy gain skills. These giant tables are a terrible eyesore and contain a lot of overly generalized calculations presented as useful information. Who decided to make them all this ugly and complicated? &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 22:12, 11 July 2006 (CDT) )


 * "I don't feel any energy management scales linearly with any of those things you mentioned." Good (for the argument I want to establish). The fact that they don't scale linearily means the information isn't actually useful, considering I mentioned quite a number of things that are quite common on the field.  I think the additional info may have value, but if it does, it is of a very secondary nature that people who just care about the actual skill stats should be bothered with.
 * In other words, I would place the ease of use of users who don't care about that secondary information, before the ease of use of users who are interested. From my perspective, placing the secondary info above skill Acquisition is way too much.  I also agree with 130.58 on pretty much all his statements.
 * "Also, changing it here means creating second tables for all the other energy gain skills that already have the merged information." Wait, how many are there (originally I thought it was just Drain, when I was posting the previous note I thought it was just Drain and Tap)??? When did this happen????? o_O" -  00:56, 12 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Ok, i started to add all those extras to elite skills. This is a copy from JoDiamonds talk page since he supported the added tables
 * Copy
 * It was my intention to add the energy/second to the progression tables, so i have some basic information for such an article. GWiki lacks an article with all necessary information for choosing and comparing possible energy management skills. The only article, that covers many issues is the Survey of PvP Energy Management Skills article. It's far from perfect, but provides infos to advantages and drawbacks. Energy/second is in my opinion the first guide value, when it comes to a comparison. Other values like recharge, beeing an enchantment etc are the secondary values. No one thinks about using a skill with a bad energy/second ratio. The problem is, how can you put all those variables into an article without overloading the layout. Adding just the progression tables and some pro and cons, is suboptimal. Usually, you have to know everything about the skill. Example, beeing an enchantment can be an advantage as cover, but a drawback is shattering. Adding this as a pro and a con? Certainly not, but what are important facts to players? Clicking an a skill shortcut like Offering of Blood takes time and the benefit of an easy to read table is gone. Using energy/second has some other problems. You have to make assumptions, like casting the skill in chain. Many skills need other conditions for providing the mathematicaly perfect energy/second. If you have ideas for a layout, i'm glad to help. Nemren 14:11, 20 June 2006 (CDT)
 * End of Copy
 * It was never my intention to add those energy/second to every skill with any energy gain for the caster. The whole energy gain/second is pure theorie. In fact, the best energy skills are elite skills and a comparision is needed. Look at the usual energy managment skills now, without any extra tables. You read:
 * Ok,skill 1, i could use it, the recharge time is 20, hm i get 6 energy,
 * Hm, oh theres another good skill 2, gives 23 within 45 seconds, bad, another attribute 
 * Ok, would it matter to put a few more points into attribute 1? hm now i get 8 energy 
 * Hm, what now, i could spend them into attribute 2, or lower it, hm, hm 
 * This happened to me everytime, when i was looking for energy skills. You can avoid it at least a bit by using the energy/second value. There are still more things to consider, but it shortens the whole process. 68.142.14.78 already reflected my opinion. Take out all the energy/second tables and make one seperate article for those, interested in those more theoretical information. BTW, i stumbled across this discussion, where are those matters usually discussed? --Nemren 06:18, 12 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I don't think any of this stuff is, definitionally, part of the "Progression", though. We've only been putting the empirically observed variable skill values there, not calculated statistics (that's different from just always listing the "green numbers": e.g. Balthazar's Spirit lists adrenaline gain because it's a hidden variable). I think there's good reason for this. And, like I said, if we start keeping track of random derived statistics in the table, there really is no end in sight. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 08:34, 12 July 2006 (CDT) )


 * In my opinion, calculation 1.2*enchantment duration by head is a no-brainer. Doing this calculation for the energy/second for each skill that suits a build is a different thing. Sorry, but thats not what i would call random derived statistics. Yes, it's statistic analysis, but not random. From my point of view, it's one easy method to determine whether a build will face energy problems or not. Please have a short look at the discussion from this build and compare the first paragraphs. The part with energy left and gained enery is hard to read and to understand. My short calculation using energy/second is easy to read and finds a conclusion very fast. I agree on removing the calculated stuff, but not by deleting, but moving the table to an article, which deals with energy management like the Survey of PvP Energy Management Skills article. --Nemren 11:07, 12 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I say we 1) scrap the energy gained by caster row and 2) scrap the energy/second row. For 1), if you can't multiply by two, you need to stop playing Guild Wars (this stat is always constant anyways). For 2), this isn't very solid information since it makes the assumption that the enemy always has energy to be drained. If just one cast happens to draw a little bit less than par, it really messes with the calculations. It sort of helps when comparing to other energy gaining skills ("vs P&H ok this gives more/less blah") but it doesn't immediately strike me as useful information as standalone. Inspiration Magic, energy lost by foe (standard progression stuff), and net energy gain are the real bits of information that will help players the most. --Vortexsam 02:40, 12 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I really think the energy/second row for energy gaining skills is important because it provides a quick, "at a glance" way to compare energy management. True, things like fastcasting or the enemy not having enough energy to inspire or whatever will skew the results, but not by so much that the numbers are unusable: they're still valuable for comparisons, and are hardly random stats at all. If the energy/second numbers aren't included in the pages for the skills themselves, then they should be included in Survey of PvP Energy Management Skills or another energy management article. Other than energy/second, there's no real way to compare the skills that actually yeilds usable information. Energy Drain, Mantra of Recall, Ether Prodigy and Offering of Blood all also already have derived stats. --Kiiron 10:34, 12 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Sorry if I wasn't clear before. Yes, they're present all over the place, and thus the discussion is more general than just Energy Tap/Energy Drain. No, I don't like them in the article at all. The second option of Kiiron's above is my preference (move them to Survey of PvP Energy Management Skills or find a new place to put them, I just couldn't find that page earlier. Only if people want to keep them on this page would I argue for keeping them together. Personally I'd like them off the page and then all of these articles linked to a page containing general energy management. As an addendum, another page that I've seen with derived stats: Boon Signet. --Kryshnysh 11:04, 12 July 2006 (CDT)

Energy Gain/ Second Skill List
Please add more skills with Energy Gain/ Second tables, if you find them.


 * Energy Boon
 * Offering of Blood
 * Mantra of Recall
 * Boon Signet
 * Peace and Harmony
 * Energy Drain
 * Energy Tap
 * Second Wind