Talk:Paragon

Image rights
I do not believe we have rights to use the image. If we do, please post that info. Otherwise, the images need to be deleted from here. We can provide links to the GameSpot site that contains the image. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 11:16, 18 July 2006 (CDT)

Offical Site now has pictures ... we should post those &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.53.240.75 &bull; contribs) 16:29, July 18, 2006.
 * Our current Image use policy says: "2. Do not use images taken from the Official site with the exception of those found in the fansite kits". Changes to that policy are now being discussed in the policy's discussion page. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:37, 18 July 2006 (CDT)

Rit Remake
Seems like a remake of a Rit, just like the other seems like a remake of an Asn... I'll take that Suicide Health now. &mdash; Rapta   (talk|contribs) 22:27, 18 July 2006 (CDT)
 * To me, it seems more like a remake of the ele. Except instead of making a damage class thats really better at playing support, Anet is explicitly making a support class.  Wards == Auras/Chants amirite?

well actually, rits summon spirits and according to the description, this is more of a monk(woohoo!) as rits are like ranger(as spirits go) and monks(restoration). i do hope that this profession will be a real change and not just a Jr. version of an older profession
 * well, i doubt itll just be a copy of an older profession, as guild wars has never done this before, and thier are so many possabilities. id say they are closer to the ranger (throwing spears)/mo then a ritulist.
 * To me it sounds a lot like a combination of Amazon (javelins), Paladin (auras) and Barbarian (warcries) from Diablo 2. In Guild Wars terms, I'm thinking Paragons are like a combination of Ranger (javelins) and Warrior (shouts). I suspect that chants are pretty much more powerful shouts with upkeep cost and a limit of only maintaining one at a time (you can't chant two things at once). -- Gordon Ecker 15:31, 19 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Bard. --Black Ark 15:50, 19 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Let's see ... *checks SRD* ... yep, bards can use ranged weapons, and these guys look like bards with the serial numbers filed off. -- Gordon Ecker 18:23, 19 July 2006 (CDT)
 * But with a lot more flavour and uniqueness than your standard "Bard". Fits the setting, in other terms. --Valentein 05:55, 20 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm also guessing that the whole Paragon-deal (shiny, shiny armour, shiny eyes, shiny everything) is to make it easier for players to digest. "Bard" is a very prevalent char-class in anything remotely RPG-based (I'm not looking for a discussion on whether or not GW is an RPG, thanks), but not a very glorious one. "Warrior/Bard", can you see that happening? "Warrior/Paragon" sounds good, though. --Black Ark 06:17, 20 July 2006 (CDT)

I'll bet party-level chants, sort of like the bard singing in the back of an AD&D party... There is only one ranged physical attack profession in the game now anyway - the ranger. The only issue I have is - those spears had better not have an AMMO COUNT or I will drop the game outright. :P Kessel 05:59, 20 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Bards? Paragons involve leadership skills, even the description says so. I'm more inclined to see this as a Marshall, from the Miniatures Handbook. --Ab.Er.Rant (msg Aberrant80) 18:20, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Anthem? Lyric? Refrain? Finale? They're bards with spears. In fact they've got a lot in common with the War Chanter prestige class from Complete Warrior with a focus on Javelin-realed feats. Or maybe a War Chanter / Bard / Marshal. -- Gordon Ecker 01:14, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

Sounds like ANet is having a second try to install a second common backline support class (after they more or less failed with Rts). --Xeeron 09:20, 20 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm not sure I'm making an unqualified assumption when I say that most players in PUGs believe only in a traditional tank-monk-heavy style party, and are generally unwilling to try new combinations. It also doesn't help that half the people playing the new stuff are not much good at it. (DC assassin without defensives, oh my!) I'm actually hoping they see some measure of success with the support classes so that perspectives of what makes a good party gradually change. Kessel 10:56, 20 July 2006 (CDT)
 * i have a hard time beleiving that the rit failed, as thier is hardly a succesful hoh team that doesn't use one.Detraya fullvear
 * Not sure about it being a "second try"; that would imply they evaluated the Ritualists and tried again. When they in reality develop these chapters semi-concurrently. The Paragon design was more than likely thought of already when Factions shipped. -- 213.113.67.150 17:55, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I have no idea that there are opinions around that Rits are a failure. And yea, developments go concurrently, so I doubt this was inspired by Rits not performing as expected. --Ab.Er.Rant (msg Aberrant80) 18:20, 25 July 2006 (CDT)

Hex removal
From the Gamespot Preview:
 * "The paragon isn't meant to be a frontline fighter. Instead, the paragon is best suited in a support role as a battle commander, capable of supporting teammates by throwing spears and using verbal chants and shouts that can boost the fighting abilities of those nearby. And the paragon's angelic nature isn't just aesthetic, as this profession's presence can help teammates resist hexes and other curses."

It never explicitly says that they have hex removal skills. It that sounds more like they have some chant or aura that either either reduces hex duration on allies (sort of like Tranquility reduces enchantment duration), increases the energy cost of hexes or provides a percentage chance to interrupt hexes cast by enemies. I think they'll go with the first option. -- Gordon Ecker 18:44, 20 July 2006 (CDT)
 * no water from this stone. we don't know, no one outside of anet nightfall team knows, and they aren't talking to us. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 18:51, 20 July 2006 (CDT)
 * So a remake of a Warrior in Ranger armor and range? &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 19:29, 20 July 2006 (CDT)


 * My guess? The primary attribute of the Paragon profession will be some kind of "Holiness" attribute, and the innate ability of that primary attribute will be that allies "in the area" (or adjacent or nearby), will gain +N% chance of resisting a hex. --Karlos 19:32, 20 July 2006 (CDT)
 * By "resisting" do you mean casting will fail or as in duration reduction? Just wondering. - 19:49, 20 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Could be either. --Karlos 20:05, 20 July 2006 (CDT)


 * interesting, youd have at least one in eery party, to have a huge chance of making hexes fail. o, and holyness is already taken, unless holyness and divine favor are diferent. :P 12.226.181.40
 * Of course they are different. One is about how holy you are.  The other is about how much the gods like you.  Depending on the culture/religion, those can easily be completely disconnected issues. - 03:08, 21 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Oh no. I foresee a huge problem here - because a Paragon with 16 ranks in that attribute reall IS Holier than Thou. I think the Hex-treatment might be the big thing for Paragons, yes. Although "holiness" sounds a bit crooked. "Angelic Vigor" or something would work better, although that does kind of sound like the Elonian alternative for Viagra. --Black Ark 03:57, 21 July 2006 (CDT)

If this is true and we have to test if Paragons stack I'm going to break some necks around here. :P Kessel 06:54, 21 July 2006 (CDT)
 * oy, thats only.... what, 1000 hexes we have to cast? with a party of sayyy... 1, 2, 3, and 4 of them? thats only 4000 hexes. Detraya fullvear

if thats true, paragon will be a staple in the fabled: "Paragon solo summit farmer" build heh heh... Samurai snack 17:41, 23 July 2006 (CDT)

Attribute Info
The attribute info from User:roofle originated here: http://www.guildwars.com/events/ingame/gwn-pvppreview.php --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 12:32, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
 * that's right, and i did source it on the nightfall talk page. Also, why did you change the primary attribute even if you don't even know what the attributes are yourself?  accordin to that page spear mastery is the primary. --roofle 12:35, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Ummm, I'm not the one who changed it. But it's a valid question to the person who did. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 12:37, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Wiseblade was the one who changed it. (See the history) If I would have to guess, I would say that Leadership is the primary too, but it's on the GW official site, so ... --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 12:46, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
 * i can see leadership non-primary being a problem, since "Watch Yourself!" would be a major source of healing and energy for PvE W/P, but until ANet corrects it, or we have event proof, we can make no corrections. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 12:57, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
 * the page got updated a while back to reflect leadership as the primary attribute after all. just posting this here for the record :) --roofle 21:27, 25 July 2006 (CDT)

Shields
The art on the Japanese version of the Nightfall PvP Preview information page depicts the Paragon with a spear and a shield. -- Gordon Ecker 05:41, 26 July 2006 (CDT)
 * While this all still speculation, although it does make sense that they'd have a shield, I've never seen a depiction of a spear being thrown with two hands, I'd be super-psyched if spears were a one-handed ranged weapon. --KeeseroGuan 08:27, 26 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Also speculation, but it seems possible that shields could become linked to an additional attribute (I'm thinking Command, since the description makes it sound closest to Tactics).
 * Interestingly sometimes Spearman did use shields according to Wikipedia#s disambigulation page, but when I played as a spearman in Maple Story we were sort of a ranged melee fighter that attacked with a polearm or spear rather than chuck them. --Jamie [[Image:Jamie.jpg|24px|(Talk Page)]] 08:42, 26 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I've played Maple Story as well, coincidentally, also as a warrior who used spears/polearms. The difference with the Paragon is, in my opinion, that they really aren't so much spears or polearms, which are used for thrusting and chopping, respectively, as much as they are javelins, which are thrown. --KeeseroGuan 09:20, 26 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Some spear-throwing techniques did require the use of two hands, particularly when a device such as an atlatl or woomera was used to increase throwing velocity (though it's also possible to use an atlatl with only one hand). See for example 1 2 --Dtremenak 12:07, 26 July 2006 (CDT)
 * It's a bit of a moot point though, as I'm fairly certain Paragons won't be using an atlatl. --67.165.22.236 11:06, 27 July 2006 (CDT)
 * That's true. It would be cool, though...it would be cool.  --Dtremenak 19:05, 27 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I Played Paragon during the preview weekend, every spear I ran into was a ranged on handed weapon, and their offhand Items seem to be mainly shields.

Usefulness
Is it just me, or do Paragons seem rather.. weak compared to the Dervish? Chants and Shouts are pretty cool, but you only have 8 skill slots and many of them have a long recharge compared to their duration and effect. - Greven 11:54, 30 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Personally, I think the skills just haven't been balanced yet, since this is only a beta. We shouldn't start questioning the usefulness of a profession until it's been in the games a few months. I remember Ritualist being thought by some people as a useless profession, and now its quite popular. &mdash; Amontillado[[Image:Amontillado.png|23px]] (T/C) 11:58, 30 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I agree. EVERYONE wanted to play the assassin when Factions came out; now nobody wants one in their party (though this isn't the class's fault.  People just don't know how to play a proper assassin).  I think both of these classes are going to be very useful, and I think there is going to be a whole new dynamic to the game.   We're going from 56 possible character combinations to 90!!  Once the next expansion comes out, it's going to be 132!  Crazy.
 * Back to the point, though: the paragon might be weak compared to the dervish when looked at toe to toe, but the same can be said for virtually any "spellcasting" class. It's all a matter of how it is played, and how well it works in a group environment. Both will take time to learn, and I'd bet that there will be many people begging Paragons to join their party once the uses of the class are learned.--Token Cleric 17:54, 11 August 2006 (CDT)

My 1st NF character was a Paragon...and now i'm makin a Dervish (owns much more), but still, in PvP (HA), u see almost only E Mo R Me N ( and maybe W), but not any Factions/Nightfall specific profession. -.-

Info from Taiwan official website
http://guildwars.nctaiwan.com/event/globeEvent/ch3Preview/event.asp

Only second paragraph contained info of interest. Using awkward phrasing and grammar to best preserve original structure and connotations:


 * Paragons are the guardian angels of the Elonian people, chosen by the gods to be agents in disguise, and are the fighters against the threat of evil on this land. Every Paragon has suffered a near-death incident in their childhood, but they successfully survived.  Paragons attribute their chance survival to the gods, so they hold on to one pricinple - dedicate their own lives to be the servents of the gods among humans.

I wonder if there will be any monsters who are paragons... o_O""" - 02:09, 8 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Odd, that sounds like it'd fit better with Dervishes. Anyway the gods don't play favourites, and elite skills don't grow on trees. I'm more interested about the bosses with the avatar forms. -- Gordon Ecker 02:21, 8 August 2006 (CDT)


 * As am I. Would be neat if the bosses with the Avatar forms look like the avatars all the time, rather than only when they use their form. Beat them, get their power, etc. etc. --Valentein 06:54, 26 August 2006 (CDT)

Does the armor seem a bit... weird to you?
80 armor, +10 energy, no energy regen. Weird combo, ne? Anyone have any ideas about why they did it that way, other than "to be weird"? &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 01:24, 19 September 2006 (CDT)
 * It's somewhere inbetween warrior and spellcaster, as it has the AL and energy regen of a warrior, but the energy bonus of a spellcaster. This makes sense, as many paragon skills use low energy (5 or 10), or are adrenaline based. Also, they have some very powerful shouts and chants for energy management. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 02:03, 19 September 2006 (CDT)
 * It's almost a warrior's AL, a warrior's energy regen, and a spellcaster's energy bonus. A bit odd compared to, say, a ranger, which actually has all three stats somewhere in between a warrior's and a caster's. I find it strange that the Ranger is still the only class with 3 points of energy regen. I guess they really just want to make you use Leadership for all your energy needs. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 02:06, 19 September 2006 (CDT)
 * They don't need regen, they have Leadership. Heavily armoured casters who.. uh don't actually cast :p &mdash; Skuld 03:41, 19 September 2006 (CDT)

Dance
Has anyone seen the male paragon dance? (it's on the official site now). I thought nothing could be worse than male Rit, but now I know better... I thought I would laugh myself to death ;P It will definitely add some spice to the city dance parties. ^^ -- Stylva 23:08, 19 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Does anyone know what dance it was copied off from? Michael Jackson, likely... been trying to figure it out... the thing is.. I KNOW those moves. -- Purplyana 13:20, 20 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I heard someone use the sentence "Beat It" together with this dance, I think it was on the GWOnline forums. -- Stylva 13:32, 20 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Yeah, BF and I found it just now after relentless YouTubing. It's "Beat It" with a few other movies tossed in. Video can be found here. -- Purplyana 13:35, 20 September 2006 (CDT)


 * The Dervish dance is based on a tribal dance I think...

Thumbnail
When I was looking at the skill trader today, I noticed a different thumbnail representing the Paragon than. I have an image, but don't know how to upload it. It'd be nice to change this if we see it as a permanent GW change. The Uglymancer 14:37, 22 October 2006 (CDT)
 * K, I found out how, and I uploaded an image as [[Image:Paragon_image.PNG]]... could probably use a better one though, and I'd like someone to check/wait to see if this is permanent The Uglymancer 14:57, 22 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Might want to have a look here User_talk:LordBiro &mdash; Skuld 17:12, 22 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Oh, sorry, thanks. I really didn't notice.  Nevermind then, I like Biro's better. 24.19.163.245 18:06, 24 October 2006 (CDT)

Pre-Order Spear
I pre-ordered the game and still haven't gotten the fancy-schmancy spear that is supposed to come with every new paragon. I'm still on the island so I don't know if I'll get it later or what. Any info on when or what I need to do to get this would be great. Flesh Over Steel 10:16, 6 November 2006 (CST) nevermind quick search found Sunspear (Weapon) so you've got to enter /bonusitems or /preorder to get it.Flesh Over Steel 11:34, 6 November 2006 (CST)

Gods
Which gods are the paragons attuned to??? Balthazar or all 5?
 * If you'd read the article, you would see that the patron god of the paragon is Dwayna and Balthazar.Giangn626 11:31, 19 November 2006 (CST)

I wrote that :P I wanted to know so I kept searching.

I thought that they served all gods ?_? -- SigmA 12:23, 14 February 2007 (CST)

That's the dervish. Motivation and Leadership Paragons are attuned to Dwayna, while Spear and Command Paragons are attuned to Balthazar.

Perfect Survivors
I just felt like saying that Paragons make the perfect class for anyone wanting to get the Survivor title. The reasons: I'm curious to know if anyone thinks that a note about their survivability should be added. --Curse You 15:01, 10 December 2006 (CST)
 * Paragons have the highest default armour level against all damage (tied with warriors)
 * They use a ranged weapon, and so can stay out of harms way
 * They have their own shields
 * Their shouts, chants and echos can make them very hard to kill, as long as they have allies around them
 * They have speed buff skills for running away (survivour title joke)
 * Personal experience will agree with this. My 'gon is level 13 at the moment and well on his way to Survivor. Only character I've ever gotten that far, matter of fact. Apeiron 23:53, 22 December 2006 (CST)
 * Sheez, my Canthan warrior was a survivor too, until I had some lagg then BOOM!! So, actually everyone can be a survivor easily, you only need good support and no lagg. -- SigmA 12:25, 14 February 2007 (CST)
 * With the new system, that you can control where your henchmen are going, there really is no reason anymore why someone can't become a survivor.
 * Well I got my awsome dervish to lv 18 with survivor. I was doing the sanctum city mission, during the recent maitneness. I was in the poinsonuss water area, with the bone dragons, all of the sudden I got disconected. Since henchie monks suck I died. I've never forgave Anet since. So you see getting survivor is all about luck, no matter what.
 * You are very brave if you tried to become a survivor with a dervish ^^. btw Paragon seems to be the best class for survivor to me too: for his position and armor you can easily avoid or break aggro, and control the damage you take. Also by using motivation you don't have to rely on your monk's energy to calculate your and your team chances of survivability in the combat. Survivor title is most about best planning and control... to take away your destiny from the luck as much as you can... (I reached the second level after Abbaddon mission) -- Mercurio

PvE Monster Armour Bonus
Does anyone know if the bonus armour of PvE Paragon monsters protects vs a special condition like elemental attacks (see Ranger) or physical attacks (see Warrior)? Do they have any extra conditional armour anyway? --Birchwooda Treehug 14:51, 2 February 2007 (CST)

Deletion

 * Lets nerf Paragons some more. --Deathwing 23:27, 9 February 2007 (CST)


 * Note - do not abuse the wiki processes to make a point, as it is disruptive. I have inserted the "nowiki" tags to remove the inserted delete notice.  Applying the delete tag adds the impacted page to the category "Candidates for deletion", requireing an admin to review the article.  --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 12:46, 11 February 2007 (CST)
 * My apologies --Deathwing 13:24, 11 February 2007 (CST)

It's the sad truth isn't it? More nerfs again. There's only one skill that got nerfed that wasn't a para skill today. I mean, really, WTF? Incoming lasts for 3s... woopey! Motivation- nerfed. Spears- half boosted/half nerfed. Have you ever heard of anyone saying the spear line is overpowered? They just nerf every emerging build that is even vaguely usable. Sigh. 132.203.83.38 00:39, 10 February 2007 (CST)


 * Yes, I totally agree. It would have been nice if the Paragon could heal a bit. Now Motivation just can't do anything. Everything it can so, it can't do very well. So either add useful skills, or make the Paragon a better healer. now, Motivation requires a hefty investment with little to no return.


 * It was very predictable. I said it when I posted here my build (P/W Party Support) "Use It now because it will be heavily nerfed..." ^^ Paragon is probably the most difficult profession to balance, because it is easy to find an exploit for shouts and chants in a team strategy. Soon after Nighfall launch, I saw only paragons in top guilds' GvG... Even now I like to play paragon in pve, even if I'm still incapable to use it to do damage: when I restarted to play gw, I searched for another build on pvx... and I found only Party Support again, despite its nerfs. A.net should add more variety to Paragons :/ -- Mercurio

The Future of Paragons
Although lately Paragons are in a questionable state, I think that with the next campaign, and the prospect of at least 20 new skills to work with (assuming the same pattern is followed)--the seemingly brutal nerfs to the Paragon could seem reasonably positive. There are many more routes of "party-wide buffing" to pursue--and the Paragon could see more focus and synergy within their own skills to revolve builds around:
 * I could forsee conditional Adrenaline gain Chants, stationed in the Motivation attribute--that act much like the current Health and Energy gain when "the next skill-type" is used. In the same way, I could see a nifty new elite in the Leadership attribute that acts much like Song of Power, yet instead of Energy regen; a 5 or 10 second duration, +1 to all Allies/Party members attributes within earshot that ends the next time a skill is used. This would act as a one-time mini Glyph of Elemental Power for everyone. Of course, such a skill would merit a hefty 60-second recharge, I think. Though, it is a wonder if such a thing would break more things than help--if the Paragon's PvP outlook remains the same?

I know this is just contemplation, but I like to share my ideas--in hopes that players think of the Paragon's possibilities in the future 'when there are more petals on the flower' so to say, for lack of thinking of some other analogy. :P &mdash;  19:18, 16 February 2007 (CST)

A.Net should heavily review the Paragon's Skillset to allow for more diversity.
I find Guild Wars' balancing system and skill depth to be so beautiful because all Professions can function, however meekly, as any role on the battlefield. Backline Monks can become frontline Smiters, midline Rangers can become frontline Thumpers, backline Ritualists can become midline Glaivers, frontline Warriors can become midline knockdown fiends, etc. That is, except for Paragons. Where do Paragons fit in the above description, and how diverse is he? The Paragon fits somewhere in the midline, but lacks synergy within its own Profession and outside to function very effectively anywhere else. Ritualists, seen as one of the least effective-at-what-it-does professions in the game, are significantly more diverse than the Paragon. Compounded with the jack-of-all, master-of-none Skillset is the ten ton nerfs slung to the Paragons as of late. In short, I am a very frustrated player. Having unlocked all of the skills for my Paragon, I am still left with roughly the same skills on my bar as I had at level 5. Additionally, he remains the only character I have that cannot specialize and be useful in a unique way that can equal another profession. He is fun, yes. And I enjoy him, yes. However, his purpose and role doesn't make sense in Guild Wars right now. It would be in A.Net and Guild Wars' best interest to revise the Skillset to aid players' ability to specialize the Paragon. GrammarNazi


 * I've acquired the Legendary Survivor title for my Paragon, with the same build I left Istan with, (save for a different elite). I really hope the next campaign can revitalise the Paragon with skills that are effective but not abusable. I really do hope that they can implement a drastic change to the way Paragons are played, much like how Nightfall greatly changed Assassins and Ritualists. Here's hoping. :P 132.203.83.38 18:05, 6 March 2007 (CST)
 * Paragons belong in the middle. I can do some damage with mine, but most of the time, what I do is keep up a constant armor bonus, allow everyone's attack skills to burn my enemies and gain them the energy back, and I can halt team wipes. True, atm there is no great way to use Command as I see it, but Motivation can be a saving grace in PVE especcially Urock 11:31, 28 April 2007 (CDT)

Lack of a Paragon Farming Build
I am feeling a lack of a paragon farming build...and it is really starting to bug me...><...Mebbe a 55? =|Caramel Ni 21:54, 22 March 2007 (CDT)


 * The problem is that Paragons don't have many good skills for self-healing that don't involve party members in some way. Also that their weapon - spears - is not at all ideal for farming...can stack lots of degen and damage on one target, but requires adrenaline (unlike Ranger) and thus isn't even that great for boss farming...since even with 80AL the Paragon can't last too long by itself. Unless you wanted to build something around "They're on Fire!" then I don't see how it could be done effectively. And unlike Dervish or Ranger who can utilize non-weapon ways to kill (Traps, Mystic Sandstorm, etc), Paragon has none such skills in their attributes. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 22:08, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

Saved by PvE only skills
As we all know, the reason Paragons kept getting hit with the nerf bat was because of how abused they could be in PvP in groups of more than two. Since there was no way to both make them effective in PvE and keep them under control in numbers in PvP, A-Net did the only thing it could possibly do: Introduce PvE only skills to strength the Paragon in PvE. I do think you'll agree the two new skills are incredibly helpful, perhaps more so than any of the other added skills in the update. Spen 01:35, 16 June 2007 (CDT)

They should have made Motivation playable.


 * Shame that anybody can use it to full effectiveness. --DEATHWING 15:03, 17 June 2007 (CDT)


 * I honestly don't see why a Paragon shouldn't be allowed to be a valid healer. I mean, you need much Leadership and a LOT of Motivation, leaving no room for spears and then you get a healer that can't even begin to look like a healer. What's so bad about making the Paragon capable of being a healer? Not everyone likes monks...


 * Motivation/Leadership Requiring Weapons (Battle Horns?) would be nice, same with Leadership based Shields. The Paragon Healing Skills are amazingly infrequent and seriously underpowered at even High Attribute levels! Motivation could use a serious buff, same with Command. It's pretty easy to decide what you're going to be as a Paragon when you've got the amazing choice of doing Damage -OR- Healing another party member for 100 Health (which is also a "self-heal" if you aren't enchanted) and this choice is outrageous. Paragons need decent self-healing and the line between Combat and Support needs to be Broadened, and I believe that giving the Paragons a second weapon set would do the trick. It would be nice to focus on Motivation/Leadership and still be able to actually do damage.  How about Damage shouts, or shouts that affect enemies? A Shout that causes Daze, tell me that wouldn't be awesome! Paragons have so much potential to be such an amazing class, but they always seem to be a niche profession. I will admit, I love playing as a Paragon. And with a full party, I can mercilessly brutalize just about anything in the realm of PvE (Not much of a challenge, but I think you get my point) but the instant I'm alone, I become the epitome of weakness and...that's just annoying. I am really hoping that the PvE skills of GW:EN will give the Paragons some great abilities that really show the potential of this amazing class.


 * Why do people think that you can only do damage OR support? Paragons were made to do damage AND support, which they do a great job of, regardless of the several nerfs. Pre-nerf Paragons could replace monks in PvE and still do damage. --DEATHWING 13:57, 21 June 2007 (CDT)


 * But Post-Nerf (A.K.A. The Way the Game "Actually" is) they can't hold a candle to Monks. The above comment, talking about Paragons wit ha zealous fervor was mine, and I want to defend it. You're right, Deathwing, I did draw a pretty black or white line. Paragons can deal damage and support. I know they can, because my Paragon build does. However, it's Spear Mastery (14), Leadership (15) and a little Command (3) (For GftE!).  If the attributes were switched to favor Command, I would surely run into energy problems, or be less effective than I would with my regular build.  A 14/10/10 Attribute set up would certainly change things but I would have to tone down my damage a lot if I lost 4 points of Spear Mastery.  It's easy to see why people think like I do, that it's either Damage or Support, even though it's really not.  But here's the honest truth: Motivation and Command offer very little for a Paragon, unless they want to do severely reduced damage.  Running 9-10 Attribute just won't offer the power that the Command Line only gets ate really high levels, and Motivation just isn't strong enough. --67.172.14.127 02:33, 22 June 2007 (CDT)


 * My Paragon has Spear-12 Leadership-12 Motivation-13, never runs out of energy, and still deals fairly good damage. Out of Command and Motivation, I would say that Command is the weaker one. Ballad of Restoration for example, is a 4 energy Heal Party. Maintained Mending Refrain is a constant 64 heal per second with a team of 8. Even if Mending Refrain is not refreshed, it is still a 160 heal. I don't know, but I do know vanquishing with my Paragon and his hero Paragon has been the easiest vanquishing I have ever done. --DEATHWING 12:57, 22 June 2007 (CDT)

Learn to use it
Paragons can be damage and support, an equal balance, perfectly. I'm sick of hearing people say that monks are better healers, or that Paragons suck. The fact is, monks are only better than Paragons at healing a single party member, maybe in a group of 2, 3, or 4 a Monk will out-do a Paragon, but a lot of people forget that Ballad of restoration, in total, heals for roughly 480 health, divided among the party and it triggers on damage, so it's nearly impossible to waste it. Same goes for Song of restoration. Lots of health, very little required for it to trigger. If you're a good Paragon, or in a good Paragon group, you can have Mending Refrain on all allies at all times, which is much better than slapping mending on 8 party members and watching your energy disappear in a few seconds. Another thing, Paragons have UNREMOVABLE BUFFS and a lot of people forget that. You cannot remove any of the buffs that Paragons put on party members, and once they trigger, the result is usually incredibly good relative to the energy cost. I think out of roughly 100 times using Aggressive Refrain it only expires once or twices, that's a constant 33% increase in attack rate, resulting in 33% more adrenaline, and coupled with something like Focused Anger, you can spam wild throw, blazing spear, and GFTE constantly. While spears DO have lower dmg per shot than bows, they have a higher attack rate, giving them the highest DPS out of all the ranged weapons. And if you still say a monk can heal better, you're forgetting about Cautery Signet and "It's Just A Flesh Wound!". Cautery Signet removes ALL conditions from ALL party members at the cost of only 1 second of burning if you take remedy signet. "IJAFW" is the fastest activating and the fastest recharging condition removal in the game, and also couples well with remedy signet. If you still think monks are better at healing, go ask I Swear She Was Eighteen [Gwen]. They're a ranked guild, i went against them in HA, and they used 4 paragons and 4 warriors(probably the best melee-ranged combination there is). Sorry for the rant, i didn't intend for it to be this long, i just got a bit sidetracked and it looks as though a lot of you seem to not be able to understand how to use a Paragon effeciently.DNA
 * Monks are better healers, why do you think you see 2 monks in the backline of every single GvG team that isn't playing a gimmick build? Lord of all tyria 16:40, 14 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Paragons don't suck. They are just a hybrid class - half Warrior, half Monk (sorta). Thus they can do both jobs, but don't do either as well as the primary class does. Warriors have better DPS than Paragons. Flail is pretty close to a permanent IAS and doesn't cost nearly all your energy. Paragons don't cause Knockdown and their only Interrupt is conditional - even if they deal more damage per shot than a Ranger, a Ranger's Dshot alone makes their ranged attacks a better choice for PvP. Paragon spear attacks need line of sight. They use a ranged attack, which is problematic versus "Shields Up!", and since Wild Throw takes Adrenaline to build up...compared to Wild Blow it is much harder to hit a defensive-stanced target as a Paragon. Adrenaline denial or something like Vocal Minority kills Paragons, even moreso than it does Warriors. Monks get Divine Favor bonus. Light of Deliverance or Heal Party will heal for a whole bunch and is perfectly good for an E/Mo or whatever; most other classes can't spam Paragon shouts effectively since they don't have Leadership. Cautery Signet and "It's Just a Flesh Wound" < Martyr for all-condition removal (though all three skills are pretty sux anyways). [Gwen] uses Paras, wow, and they're a ranked guild! So what? That doesn't prove anything other than the fact that Paras can serve as replacement Monks. It doesn't mean they are necessarily better or worse. Finally - most Paragon elites, to put it bluntly, suck. Badly. Especially when you compare them to a Warrior's / Monk's equivalent. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 16:53, 14 July 2007 (CDT)
 * ^HUGE wall of text. Paragons are fine even after the nerfs, infinite energy, pressure and utility. The Hobo 18:34, 14 July 2007 (CDT)
 * [Gwen] sucks. Paragons are meh. Good midliners merely because of Leadership. Not great damage; meh healing ability. Oh, never use an HA guild as an example. Thnx. Readem (talk *contribs ) 18:47, 14 July 2007 (CDT)


 * Hey, I used to be in [Gwen], that hurts... Although most all of them were asses, they were fine PvPers. Better than the crap I see in AB. Now, the topic at hand, Paragons have their uses. Their shouts can be beneficial and one on a team isn't a handicap by any means. Ballad of Restoration is an awesome skill. I just wish Anet would unnerf these guys. They're wounded to the point where their brains are coming out of their disfigured skulls. It's just rediculous.  —ǥȓɩηɔɧ 〚₮/ḉ〛 19:06, 14 July 2007 (CDT)


 * Hehe, sorry. Readem (talk *contribs ) 20:28, 14 July 2007 (CDT)


 * I heard most of Gwen is r3 and they win halls a decent amount. 67.162.10.70 20:39, 14 July 2007 (CDT)

In response to what Entropy said: Monks better healers? Yes divine favour helps them heal, but you forget one of the biggest problems for monks: Energy Denial. Paragons almost NEVER have that problem, and because of that, they can constantly spam high cost shouts and chants which have incredible effects. In a co-ordinated group with just 2 Motivation Paragons(which can still provide decent offense) at 16 Motivation everyone is getting healed for 79 health every time they take damage, once every 10 seconds. in addition to that, another 94 health every time they use a skill, once every 7.5 seconds. Combined with CONSTANT health regen that will NEVER go down from Mending Refrain, and the fact that ALL Paragon buffs are completely unremovable, is a significant advantage, and to say all Paragon elites suck is just plain ignorant. Cautery is worse than Martyr? where do you get that idea? your monk, in a common situation, could end up with daze, poison, bleeding, and cripple, and blind, most of which for 10+ seconds as opposed to one second, just one second of burning when you combine Cautery sig with Remedy sig. Another great elite that Paragons have is Focused Anger, double adrenaline for 45 seconds with only 15 seconds of downtime. That sucks?! Could you imagine if Warriors had that available to them? Hammer warriors could spam high damage attacks, sword warriors would be in a state of constant block, and axe warriors would rip enemies to shreds in seconds. GFTE is free energy, and a significant damage increase when in a large party considering its spammability. and with "It's just a flesh wound" you can immediately get rid of any new conditions on your allies, with a 0 sec cast time, meaning it's uninterruptable. Paragons alone cannot do as much damage as a Warrior, true, but if you say take a group of 4 Eles, 2 Wars, and 2 Monks(a fairly balanced and good combination) versus 8 Paragons, i guarentee you the Monks won't be able to keep off the burning and bleeding, the warriors will drop quickly from constant burning and bleeding despite their high armor, and the eles will do next to nothing for damage when you consider"They're On Fire!" + "Incoming" and others using Ballad of Restoration with Song of Restoration. If it's an all paragon team, you can bet they're going to have Chorus of Restoration. Yes, Vocal Minority shuts down Paragons, but you forget that broad head arrow can pretty much shut down any caster, and price of failure can pretty much shut down any physical attacker. so you see, any profession can be "shut down", but the fact is that vocal minority is almost NEVER used in PVP and is scarce in PVE as well. Thus, Paragons easily out do monks in team healing. Not to mention they have the best FOW Armor =P--Darksyde Never Again 22:04, 18 July 2007 (CDT)
 * R u srs? Monks are better healers, hands down. Energy denial left the meta about a year and a half ago, and good monks can weaponswap to cancel the denial. Edit; while I know it's stupid getting pulled into such a retarded argument, monks have condition and hex removal, and prots which are a billion times better than anything paragons have. Defensive Anthem is nice, but Aegis stays on warriors and rangers, DA doesn't. - Auron 22:06, 18 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I do enjoy how people argue "Paragons have less damage than warriors and less damage than monks". Why don't you state the reverse? "Paragons have much better healing than warriors and Paragons have much better damage than monks". Paragons are not meant to replace Monks, Paragons are not meant to replace Warriors. Paragons are meant to help take pressure off the monks while still doing quite a bit of damage. They are very good at this role. Stop thinking you can only Tank/Nuke/Heal and if you are not the best at them, you suck. Granted, there is still places like DoA where anything with less than 300 armor and 95% damage reduction dies in one hit where you HAVE to have Tank/Nuke/Heal. Other places however, hybrid characters work great. Vanquishing the desert with 2 Paragons was extremely easy. How could that be so if 33% of the team "sucks"? --DEATHWING 22:24, 18 July 2007 (CDT)

Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics: even if you win, you're still retarded. What it comes down to is Paragons are halfway between warriors and monks. Each is better at their own specialized role than a paragon but a paragon's strengths come from their versatility and ability to be versatile effectively.  —ǥȓɩηɔɧ 〚₮/ḉ〛 23:35, 18 July 2007 (CDT)
 * So what does that make someone who tries to start an argument from a discussion? --DEATHWING 23:57, 18 July 2007 (CDT)

in pve they're better than monks =P. its like a prot monk on crack - Skakid9090 23:37, 18 July 2007 (CDT) IMO, Command > prot prayers for keeping the party protected. Why bother blocking when you can just reduce all the damage down to bare minimum? Paragons easily have best condition removal, to argue and say that Cautery signet sucks for condition removal is just plain stupid. Motivation > healing prayers when it comes to keeping an entire party alive. I say, as soon as Paragons get a few more good skills, and people get over the skirts and horrible dance, Monks are going to only be in either noob parties, RA/TA, or two-man parties. Unless it's a smite, hey guys, there's something monks can do that Paragons can't, they can kill the ocassional minion slightly faster. And "There's Nothing To Fear" >>>>Aegis. TNTF reduces all damage by roughly 30% and can be kept up indefinitely unless you have low Leadership, or you have terrible energy management, whereas Aegis can't. And you know what else? TNTF reduces dmg from ALL sources, not just attacks, which are usually only about 33% of the damage in PVE anyways. Also, Aegis takes two fokin' seconds to cast, easy to interrupt, and lasts a pitiful 11 seconds at 16 PP. and what's even worse is that it's an enchantment and is SOOOOO easy to remove. The only thing i can imagine a monk being in a Paragon party for is hex removal, which Paragons can do, just not very well. One last point, with 0 buffs, Spears have roughly the same DPS as swords, and higher DPS than axes. And you can still have a shield, so to say they can't put out as much dmg as a warrior is totally wrong. And they easily have enough damage reduction to out tank a warrior, so long as they have other Paragons around to boost their own echos, shouts, and chants. However, P/W does tend to be a pretty damn good combination, with the whole "Save Yourselves" and such. gotta stop forgetting to add sig...--Darksyde Never Again 19:09, 19 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Paragons however, do lack at single target spike heals + protection. Angelic Bond can help a little, but that is one of the problems with Paragons. --DEATHWING 19:30, 19 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Then go monk secondary and bring infuse :P --Gimmethegepgun 19:33, 19 July 2007 (CDT)
 * song of restoration + chorus of restoration = ~180ish health for the entire party next time they use a chant or shout. toss on ballad of restoration and you've got something pretty close to a spike heal, and paragons have some of the best anti spike, anyways. Angelic protection, "Incoming!", tons of other damage reduction skills, you get the idea.--Darksyde Never Again 20:21, 19 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Angelic Protection? lol. I support your paragons being decent healers, but I have played a Paragon since Nightfall came out, and if they put a ton of pressure on one person, a Paragon has a hard time handling it. Can they maybe replace a monk? Possibly. Will they replace all monks in normal PvE? No. Unless the teams start becoming 4 Paras, 4 Wars. Exchanging 2 Monks for 2 Paras in a normal team will not work. The example of Song of Restro + Chorus of Restro + Ballad of Restro is kinda flawed in that it takes 3 seconds to setup, requires a shout, and has a long cooldown. Now if someone is taking the 60 (80 with degen) damage per second allowed by Angelic Protection, you will not be able to counter it. "Incoming!" will not help much anymore, except for a PvP spike, maybe. PvE pressure it will not do much to save you. They are great at team healing, the more people the damage is spread over the better, the more focused the damage is, the worse off a Paragon is. Why do you think Paragons are rather crap in AB/RA? --DEATHWING 20:37, 19 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Note that i never said 2 Paragons will replace 2 monks. I'm saying that a team with 4+ Paragons as a lot better than a team with 2 monks, unless the other four are oh say...monks. but Paragons make great support and offense when put together with Warriors, Fire Elementalists, and other Paragons. Once you have 4+ Paragons in your party,there's no need for monks whatsoever, and because of their flexability and ability to deal damage while providing support(sometimes attacking helps them support) i can see them completely dominating most PVE and PVP teams once people get over the skimpy clothes and dance. Once Paragons become more popular, no one will want a monk because a healer that can deal damage is much better than a healer that can't. like i said before, with no buffs, a paragon has a(n) equal-to/higher-than dps than a(n) axe/sword warrior(due), and if you add in buffs, Paragons still win in most cases. If you ask me, the "perfectly balanced" PVE group is 4 Paragons, 2 elementalists, and 2 Warriors, unless in a hex heavy area, in which case, you would replace one of the warriors with either a hex-removal monk, or a hex-removal mesmer.--Darksyde Never Again 00:36, 20 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I say Paragons will end up about like Ritualists in PvE. They work, rather well actually, but people still rarely utilize them. Rits can also damage/heal, look at rit spike, but people still won't switch to using 8 rits in PvE. Much easier to find 2 random wammos, 4 random eles, and 2 random monks than it is to find 4 Paragons with the right skill bars. Granted, I'll take my Paragon to any PvE place I go to help someone, and if I have a choice, I will always take my Morgahn too. Most people are not like this, and if they still haven't changed in two years, they won't change anytime soon. Tank/Nuke/Heal, Warrior/(Ele or SS)/Monk. This is pointless discussing really, Paragons work good for what they are designed for, we can both agree with that so I'm done. Peace. --DEATHWING 02:40, 20 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Sorry, but Paragon spear DPS is nowhere near Warrior DPS once you add buffs. Paragon gets permanent IAS, yes, but they get overall quite crappy skill selection from Spear Mastery. Flail and others are pretty much a permanent IAS anyways, and are non-elite. The only thing they actually do better than a Warrior in that regard (sometimes...all skills situational) is Deep Wound, since they have what...four skills that can cause it, and one of them doesn't even need to hit to cause it (though cover conditions can be a problem sometimes). However, Spear elites suck, plain and simple. Stunning Strike got nerfed to oblivion and is about as good as Skull Crack now. Cruel Spear will always be problematic in PvP since few targets will stand still for you. Compared to a Warrior, Eviscerate is better anyways. What other Spear skills does the Paragon have? Barbed Spear for Bleeding < Sever Artery should you care to use it. Harrier's Toss is on par with Bull's Strike or Protector's Strike or actually, since you critical in melee on fleeing foes, a Warrior still harries kiters better. Disrupting Throw requires a condition and is thus inferior to almost all of a Warrior's interrupts. The 3-second activation skills Mighty Throw and Unblockable Throw...large damage in one packet but over time, it's no higher DPS than using normal skills. Wild Throw is nice, but if a target starts using a stance before you've powered it up then you are screwed, as opposed to Wild Blow which can be used right away. Spear of Lightning, meh, nothing special...Warriors have plenty of high-damage Energy-based attacks. Slayer's Spear isn't much of an option in PvP unless you plan on taking some damage first, and even then it's a gambling game. Wearying Spear needs Remedy Signet used afterwards, which slows down DPS.
 * There are only a few very nice Paragon spear skills. Vicious Attack pretty much requires GftE, but once you've got it you can do Deep Wound right from full health, which a Warrior can't do. (Except for Rage of the Ntouka) Blazing Spear is also a great skill, dealing decent damage and Burning, which Warriors can't do. It can even be applied indefinitely with an IAS and an Adrenaline-gain-boosting skill. Swift Javelin is also a great skill if the Enchanted condition is met - unblockable, recharge not that high, some +damage. Warriors have plenty of similar skills, but they either deal very small damage or have harder-to-meet conditions.
 * But there are still some problems. Since they attack with projectiles, Paragons always need Line of Sight to hit. Constantly moving targets are a problem, and even with IAS it's not hard to miss them. Paragons also don't have any attacking skills which will hit more than one target, which is problematic in PvE. Certain stances or other skills that block exclusively projectiles, such as "Shields Up!", will shutdown a Paragon's damage output quite a bit, moreso than a Warrior is shutdown by Aegis or such.
 * Other issues not directly related to damage. Paragons have equal base armor to Warriors, however, they lack the +armor against physical which is inherent for Warriors. Centurion's Insignia needs a Shout to work, Brawler's...meh, and in both cases you'd only be increasing armor to on par with a Warrior at best. Dreadnought's or Sentinel's for Warriors work wonders. Paragons and Warriors both get Shields. However, a Paragon needs to run a three-attribute-split build to get the full usage of a Shield and still have points for Spear Mastery and Leadership. Warriors, on the other hand, have a shield tied to their Primary Attribute, so they can run a two-attribute-split and still be effective.
 * Paragons can not cause Knockdown without utilizing a secondary, which is a huge disadvantage compared to Warriors. Paragons also only have one skill that causes Cripple, and it's Elite Command anyways.
 * Self-healing. Warriors have two skills: Healing Signet and Lion's Comfort. When used correctly, both are completely viable and unconditional. Paragons have either Leader's Comfort or the Motivation line. However, Leader's Comfort requires other party members to be nearby to be effective at all, and at its max healing cap of ~140 doesn't heal more than Healing Signet. Same cast time too. Sure it doesn't have an armor penalty, but any smart Warrior can cover for that. Motivation line, well, if you're running Spears, Command, and Leadership already...you don't have room for Motivation, unless you want to run a four-attribute-split, which is just silly. Moreover, the Motivation skills (other than perhaps Signet of Synergy) are all intended for full-party usage, not single-person healing. They become proportionally less useful/effective with smaller party size. Also, if you choose an elite Motivation skill, you either lose an elite Spear skill or lose Focused Anger, which again lowers your DPS.
 * Self-Defense. Warriors have plenty of skills in both Strength and Tactics which can be used for self-defense. A Paragon has less choices: you've got Angelic Protection, which only works on someone taking very heavy damage and can't target yourself. Angelic Bond uses your Elite slot, and again can't be used on yourself. Defensive Anthem is a poor skill for self-defense and uses your Elite. "They're on Fire!" only applies to targets that are Burning...unless you can get everyone on your team to target a different enemy, such that they are all constantly burning, this is not usually an option. TNtF and Save Yourselves are PvE-only skills; Save Yourselves doesn't do anything for the caster either, and a Warrior could use it just as well anyways.
 * Kiting. Warriors have a number of skills for speedbuff. Paragons have "Fall Back!", "Make Haste!", Godspeed, and maybe some others that I am forgetting. Fall Back is nice but has recharge problems, and is costly if you're only affecting yourself. Make Haste can't target yourself. Godspeed requires a secondary or a teammate since Paragons carry no Enchantments.
 * Resurrection. The Paragon hard rez, Signet of Return, is only a viable option with many teammates. Without them you might use "We Shall Return!", but you still get an inferior rez. Admittedly, Warriors have no hard rez, and so have to use their Secondary or Resurrection Signet / Sunspear Rebirth Signet. Both classes have problems so they're about equal there.
 * Finally...condition and hex removal. Paragon condition removal is miles better with Remedy Signet, I'll give you that. Hex removal is Hexbreaker Aria. But, Paragons have no spells, so it's useless anyways. Both classes need a secondary to use Hex removal.
 * There's a bunch of other stuff to respond to but this post is already long enough; I'll make another. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 13:11, 20 July 2007 (CDT)


 * Monks compared to Paragons. Any half-decent Monk can deal with Energy Denial, whether it is a simple hex removal/denial (plenty of skills for that, and...Paragons have none), Divine Spirit, or knowing how to spam Signet of Devotion. I won't even get into secondary classes for Monks either. A Paragon's "unlimited energy" consists entirely of Leadership and, to a lesser extent, a few of their Shouts. However. Leadership bonus only kicks in when you've got party members in earshot, and becomes proportionately less useful as party size gets smaller. If you're talking about straight energy degen, then Monks still beat Paragons: with +2 pips and ~+10 more max energy it takes considerably more. Also: Power Leak. Kills Paragons, and it is hard to recover from zero Energy. Your only choices are Adrenaline-based Shouts in that case. Monks hit with Power Leak still have Energy left over and have a much easier time recovering from it.
 * Monks are better healers on a single target, hands down, and there's no argument for that. Even if that target is themselves. If you want to talk party-wide healing, may I direct your attention to Heal Party or more importantly, Light of Deliverance. However, a primary Monk rarely uses those skills, since with things like Healing Seed and other very cost-efficient heals, you'll usually end up wasting party-wide healing anyways.
 * On the issue of party-wide healing. When do you need this? If you're standing around in the AoE then you lose anyways. In PvE, if you're smart you will have a dedicated tank or two to absorb aggro and thus minimize damage to only one or two targets. In those cases you don't need party-wide healing at all, since most of it goes to waste. Party-wide healing can cover sacrifice from a Necro, but they usually can handle it by themselves. If you're in a wild siege sort of situation, surrounded on all sides or just overall chaos, or you're in PvP where anyone can get attacked, then in those cases you might need party-wide healing. However, in PvP you're more likely to see a single-target spike than gradual damage to the entire team. And Monks deal with that better. Anyways, if you're in PvE you can use Sunspear skills. Paragons get There's Nothing to Fear; Monks counter with Seed of Life.
 * Mending Refrain is about as good as Mending. 'Nuff said. Setting it up on the entire 8-man party takes you at least a full minute, and in PvP you won't have that kind of time. When do you need party-wide +3 regen anyways? When facing Lacerate? And that is still only 6 health per second, hardly a lifesaver anywhere. Vigorous Spirit anyways. Sets up on the entire team faster, costs the Monk less energy, can be kept up nearly indefinitely with an Enchanting mod or Blessed Aura, not worth an Enchantment removal in most cases.
 * "94 health every time they use a skill" Not quite, it has to be a spell. So that's useless on your fellow Paragons or any non-spellcasters. Besides, that is once every 7.5 seconds or so, right? Monk counters with Vigorous Spirit. Easily +100 health in less than five seconds.
 * "ALL Paragon buffs are completely unremovable" Yawn, you need massive Enchantment removal if you want to remove all a Monk's buffs. Mirror of Disenchantment? Huge energy cost, only worth using on Aegis anyways. The other mass Enchant removals are Elite or very conditional. Few people run Avatar of Grenth anymore anyways.
 * "to say all Paragon elites suck is just plain ignorant" Please read more carefully. I said most of them suck. The examples you highlight, Cautery Signet and the Motivation ones, are exceptions. Compare that to a Monk anyways. How many Elite skills do they have, and how many suck? Not that many.
 * "Cautery is worse than Martyr" Yes, that's right. And you can check the Talk pages for all three Elite, party-wide condition removal for more proof. Cautery Signet has a two-second cast time and is easy to interrupt. Any anti-Signet skills kill it as well. It has no better overall recharge than Martyr (because of cast time). "Monk picks up Daze" Big deal, Mending Touch or even use Mo/P and also take Remedy Signet. Or use Purge Conditions. Or...the Monk could carry Extinguish. Also: the only classes that should pick up Dazed are casters, and unless your teammates are idiots they probably carry some sort of Condition removal for themselves, since no one should rely entirely on the Monk for healing and support. Cripple, Poison, Bleeding, Burning, Deep Wound, Blind... you might see Cripple in PvP, but usually the folks worth crippling (runners and Monks, maybe frontliners) carry something to combat it. Bleeding is hardly a threat. Blind is...totally irrelevant on a Monk. The other conditions, Poison, Burning, and Deep Wound, are a bit more serious but you can still easily remove those in one second with any number of the Monk's condition removal skills.
 * However, let's be honest. Party-wide condition removal is not all that it's cracked up to be. In PvE, you don't see party-wide Condition spamming since AI isn't smart enough. Well, maybe Disease, but Extinguish takes care of that fine and it won't necessarily hit everyone anyways. In PvP, again, you're usually going to see spikes rather than party-wide pressure from Conditions. If you see Conditions it's generally on one or two targets -> party-wide removal wasted. Serious degen-pressure uses Hexes as well. Monks are better than Paragons for that. And lastly, remember that all the party-wide condition removals are Elite, so it really is kind of a waste.
 * "if you say take a group of 4 Eles, 2 Wars, and 2 Monks(a fairly balanced and good combination) versus 8 Paragons..." Oh wow, constant Bleeding! What a concept! No, seriously, Bleeding is never worth removing and is only a good condition because it can be used as a cover. Burning is another issue. The Monks could use Extinguish. But, I have a better idea: Frigid Armor on your four Eles, and then you can't do anything against them. The Wars will not easily die to -10 degen of Bleeding and Burning - assuming a max Health of 480, you'd still need to wait an entire 24 seconds before they die. And that is assuming no healing. You Elites are all Chorus of Restoration so I'm assuming you probably don't have many points in Spear Mastery anyways. The Warriors could also both carry Shields Up! or Deflect Arrows, and then you're screwed. Hell, the Eles could use Swirling Aura. One Monk is prot and uses Aegis which can be kept up indefinitely...well, there goes your offense. Paragons can't do Enchant removal so actually, you could just run Bonders. Then the Eles take Aura of Restoration and maybe Glyph of Restoration and Dual Attunements, which takes care of your piddly Spear attacks anyways. Heck, you could even run two Wammos with Live Vicariously and Vig Spirit, they'll heal themselves fine. Or just Succor the Monks. Either way you pretty much end up as a stalemate. Your Paragons can't out-damage the other team, and are stuck chaining "Incoming!" (which got nerfed to hell anyways) and Ballad + Chorus. The Eles and Warriors will slowly chip away at you, perhaps being able to spike down a target if they are coordinated enough. Since the Paragons have no Enchant removal, the other team can keep itself alive indefinitely. It's more likely that someone would /ragequit and break the team, than either side winning. Though I'd still place my money on the non-Paragon teamm, since they actually have a chance to out-damage the other team...
 * "broad head arrow can pretty much shut down any caster, and price of failure can pretty much shut down any physical attacker" BHA has a long recharge time, flies slowly, and Dazed doesn't shut down a caster at all unless you've got at least two people constantly hitting them. Even then, you never carry two Monks who both don't carry Condition removal. So unless you carry two Rangers who both have BHA and use at least two more people in conjunction to keep them down, then no. BHA won't be doing anything in PvP. Besides that, there is Signet removal. Borrowing Mo/P Remedy Signet works wonders. Anyways...Price of Failure? Are you serious? Explain to me please, how a mere 25% chance to miss can pretty much shut down any physical attacker. I'm sorry, but that is just bull. Maybe if you combine with stuff like Reckless Haste, then you're talking. But that is a Curses Necro anyways, and both skills are easily countered by Hex removal...they don't exactly have short recharge times.
 * "Why bother blocking when you can just reduce all the damage down to bare minimum?" Because...it's conditional? If you want to use They're on Fire, again, you'll really need to be spreading that around to every attacking foe, and keep it up constantly. Chaining "Incoming!" now requires several Paragons, and that wastes your Elite slot anyways so no Chorus of Restoration. Unless you are a really super coordinated team of 8 people who are total Paragon prOs, I don't think you can do such a massive multitasking job. I mean, you really have to scramble...make sure Burning is up at all times...chaining Incoming...chaining Chorus. You might have something like 2 Chorus Paragons, 2 Burning Paragons, and the others would be needed for Incoming. But really, that is a weak team overall with numerous flaws in it. And all that stress of timing. A Monk casts Aegis and is done with it. There's Nothing to Fear is, again, PvE only. It is something that Monks don't have, yeah. But still, Seed of Life is a nice counterpart that Paragons don't have. More on Aegis: It can be kept up indefinitely. Two second cast and interruption? Spell Shield if you're lazy, else use a secondary for Glyph of Concentration, Mantra of Concentration, Mantra of Resolve..."Oh, but Paragons don't need that secondary so they pwn" Well, no. Considering most PvP monks will already have /Me or /E secondary, it's a moot point. Aegis is easy to remove? How many monsters in PvE can remove Aegis in one go? Not very many. And in PvP you can't use TntF anyways. Defensive Anthem sucks anyways and wastes your elite.
 * Smiting ignores armor and bypasses any sort of blocking abilities. The only counters are straight damage reduction such as Shielding Hands and things like "Incoming" which foes rarely carry anyways. End of discussion, you can't compare the two. Besides that, Smiting does double damage to Undead. It's irrelevant in Kryta, but once you reach the high-end Nightfall areas...well. Try getting a totally Spear and Command-based Paragon team to outdamage a smiter team there...
 * Finally, about Paragons eventually dominating PvE landscape. I have to /disagree with that, or at least add the caveat that "it'll take a long long time", for a few reasons...One is that you need (like you said) at least 4 or more Paragons before their advantages really start to surpass Monks. If you are PUG'ing or even looking for that many Paragons amond friends and guildmates, you're gonna be wasting a lot of time in most cases. It's just so much easier to find two Monks, or even use your Monk Heroes (only get one Morgahn)...Another thing, "a healer that can deal damage...", well. That is completely irrelevant. Who expects a Monk to deal damage? No one. In fact they shouldn't be attacking at all. If you're taking Paragons to replace Monks, then why should they deal any damage anyways? If you have Fire Elementalists to take care of Burning already, then the only reason a Paragon should be attacking is to build up Adrenaline for Motivation/Command shouts...and in that case they don't need to be dealing any damage at all. Spear Mastery is wasted points that could be better spend in Leadership/Command/Motivation...since you'd never attack with any weapon with less than 9 rank, and that is a significant amount of attribute points taken away from what you were hired to do: heal/prot. And conversely, if you're just a DPS'ing Spear Paragon, no one would really expect you to carry serious healing and stuff. You could try to do both jobs at once but that is just inefficient. And then lastly, like you say, hex-heavy areas. You'd never see Paragons replacing Monks there, unless you could find a hex-only Mesmer to help out, and that's even more rare than finding 4 Paragons... [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 14:34, 20 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Couldn't be bothered to read the huge wall of text, so I just read your summary thing at the end. Paragons CAN do both jobs at once, they are not only limited to Heal+Prot or damage, they can do both. Sorry if you don't believe it but yeah. Edit: Their healing is support healing, not main healing, their damage is support damage not main damage. The fact that they can do both at once however makes them a good profession. --DEATHWING 15:04, 20 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Not gonna bother reading that, i got this huge feeling it's the same argument just repeated and lengthened. but i will say that Paragons, like Warriors, have pretty powerful attack skills, and while Paragons can't KD, Warriors can't daze enemies, except with skullcrack, which is hard to time. so there you go. Paragons can put out as much if not more damage than a warrior if you use the right skills. As for having to "find 4 Paragons with the perfect skills", you pretty much gotta be either really stupid or really blind to not see that people can CHANGE TEMPLATES. I know three other Paragons that i went into FOW with at least 5 times, all of which had an armor set and a weapon set for either command or motivation. I had every paragon elite available to me, and the other three had all of the generally useful ones. And then there was one other, who i only went into FOW with twice, who also had every Paragon elite and had armor sets and weapon sets for whatever he needed. So obviously it's not hard to find people with the right skills, all it ever took was 10, maybe 15 minutes of preparation and we'd walk in with not a single death and no one would drop below 90% health.So, there, it's not hard to find 4 Paragons who know what they're doing and can change at any time--Darksyde Never Again 15:55, 21 July 2007 (CDT)
 * "while Paragons can't KD, Warriors can't daze enemies, except with skullcrack, which is hard to time" Right, and you're telling me Paragons can daze enemies...Awe requires a KD which Paragons can't do, Stunning Strike is a piece of crap and almost harder to use than Skull Crack. Also, if you're not going to bother reading my arguments, why do I bother arguing with you people at all? You don't listen to me, why should I listen to you? I can't be bothered to read your text, either. >.> [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 16:17, 21 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Don't read it, it saves arguments. Though I have read yours, and it does nothing but compare how other classes are better than a Paragon at certain things. Everyone already agrees to that. Not every class you compared a Paragon can do more than one of them roles at a time. You proved that Paragons have slightly less damage than a Warrior, which is good I guess? Even though most people already agree on this. You proved that Paragons can't heal quite as good as Monks, but they can heal. Again, most people already know this. The thing you failed to mention in your novel is how Paragons can heal slightly less than a Monk, and do slightly less damage than a Warrior AT THE SAME TIME. Comparing Paragons to 2 different professions at once fails, I'm sorry. Sure a Monk can heal better and a Warrior can damage better. Can a W/Mo support as good as a Paragon? Hell no. Can a Mo/W damage as good as a Paragon while helping keep the team alive? Most likely not. I'm sure replacing a Paragon with a Warrior AND a Monk would be more effective, but seeing as how there is limited room in a party, comparing a Paragon to both of them makes no sense. --<font face="mistral" color="#123456">DEATHWING 20:17, 21 July 2007 (CDT)
 * "Don't do two jobs badly at the same time." [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 14:55, 22 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah, because rit spike is pretty crap. Thats why everyone complains about it. It's not doing them badly, just not as good as a profession that only does one. --<font face="mistral" color="#123456">DEATHWING 15:06, 22 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Erm, Ritspike is one of the most powerful spiker teams out there. I don't know what you think "doing them badly" means, and there is no profession that only does spike. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 11:26, 23 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Rit spike heals and spikes at the same time, and look how good they are. Paragons heal and pressure at the same time. --<font face="mistral" color="#123456">DEATHWING 14:54, 23 July 2007 (CDT)

Take a gander at GW:EN skills. Paragons got some serious lovin'. Better deep wound, crippling, etc. Makes them more competative.  —ǥȓɩηɔɧ 〚₮/ḉ〛 10:27, 24 July 2007 (CDT)
 * A good number of those will be nerfed spectacularly before GW:EN comes out so I wouldn't set much store by the good ones, I mean look at the stupid b-spike skill...Lord of all tyria 10:29, 24 July 2007 (CDT)


 * Yep. We can dream though.  —ǥȓɩηɔɧ 〚₮/ḉ〛 22:39, 24 July 2007 (CDT)


 * There's just the one problem... Paragon doesn't have any skills that can inflict Cracked Armor --Gimmethegepgun 22:44, 24 July 2007 (CDT)


 * They have these things called teams or even secondary professions.  —ǥȓɩηɔɧ 〚₮/ḉ〛 23:26, 24 July 2007 (CDT)

triva
unless 173 has some significance to paragons then this needs to be delited im sure if u do the maths you can get 1337 points for m.o.n.k w.a.r.r.i.o.r etc


 * Anything can add up to 1337, but I doubt many other words would have that without decimals... but it is really odd, and it wouldn't really describe Paragons. --84.24.206.123 11:18, 13 September 2007 (CDT)