GuildWiki talk:Community portal/Archive 17

Images Cleanup
Would some people be so kind as to have a look at Special:Unusedimages, and chuck some of these? Gravewit 16:39, 2 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Took care of a large chunk of ones from last summer/early fall. Plus every unused one that I uploaded (unless I missed some).  It would be good if people could look thru there and mark for deletion images that they've uploaded that there is no more use for.  That way admins don't need to guess about it or wipe out something that someone actually wanted to keep.  --Rainith 18:33, 2 July 2006 (CDT)


 * If nothing links there, and it's older than a few months, give it the axe. --Karlos 20:15, 2 July 2006 (CDT)

ZBoard
Hey folks, the zboard people dropped me a line wanting to send out a keyboard for review. The keyboard IS Guild Wars-specific, so I figure this is not out of the scope of the site. What do you think?

I personally don't want the thing, so I figured if one of you did, you can have it. Mods have first dibs. Gravewit 10:52, 15 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I'm interested, but if anyone has a viable contest idea I would support using it as contest prize. On the other hand, maybe PvP ppl should be given preference, since they might be able to review it better. - 10:58, 15 June 2006 (CDT)


 * It would be so cool to have one, but I think there are people who need it more. A contest sounds good. How about something that rewards helping the wiki in some way? --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 11:04, 15 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Btw: Can they send it outside North America? I don't think so. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 11:05, 15 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Got a picture of it?--Draygo Korvan 11:06, 15 June 2006 (CDT)
 * A contest sounds good. --Xeeron 11:42, 15 June 2006 (CDT)
 * A link from guildwars.com: http://www.zboard.com/experience/guildwars/ --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 13:40, 15 June 2006 (CDT)
 * What a nice keyboard.. :D --WichmanN 15:04, 15 June 2006 (CDT)
 * The Zboard is overrated bullpoop. And no version exists for left-handed users. -- [[Image:Bishop_icon2.png]] Bishop [ rap|con ] 15:08, 15 June 2006 (CDT)
 * What do you mean with "left-handed users"?... --WichmanN 15:21, 15 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Oh, and if you use anyhting else than a US qwerty, this is useless. The (in Finland) very often used ä and ö (and the useless å) are not to be found in the US keyboards. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 15:24, 15 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Well then maybe its not so good if you, like me, comes from Denmark where we use: æ, ø and å... :'( --WichmanN 15:29, 15 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Hmmm, I would think we need to look at this more objectively. Who gets the keyboard is not as relevant as "what will they be looking for?" If we agree on that, it doesn't really matter who gets the keyboard.
 * Also, whoever gets the keyboard should have the time and the capacity to test it in different environments. Mainly, RA and TA then HoH then GvG and then Challenge Missions, Competitive missions and finally, PvE.
 * I would recommend Xeeron, he is an admin and a person able to look at things fairly objectively. The only catch is that he is in Germany I believe. Can you ship that far, Gravewit? --Karlos 17:12, 15 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Last time I checked I was no admin =)
 * More important, German keyboards use special keys as well (öäü), so I guess it would not work for me as well. Sounds like this will be for US/english users only. --Xeeron 17:37, 15 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Maybe I need one, stupid edit conflict, current non detachable keyboard holding me back! Xeeron should be an admin, the RFA vote is at 8/0/0 but Phil hasn't done it yet. I was going to say Xeeron would be good "because I think he's pretty fair and even handed, probably useful traits to have if you're a reviewer" so maybe we'll have to go for plan B, you know some kinda crazy deathmatch, 2 people enter, one walks out, and have a draw like the world cup. Geez Xeeron you could have just said yes instead of forcing the GuildWiki community to fight to the death over it, which is the only fair competition I can think of :P --Xasxas256 17:43, 15 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Just a quick side note on becoming admin: Skuld had the most positiv votes and he became admin, which is exactly the way it should work in my opinion. If we need further admins, we can go to the next person in line. --Xeeron 03:14, 16 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Hmm, you're not an admin? When did you get demoted? :)
 * Anyways, we need to know Gravewit's shipping abilities. I am in the US and I can do it. I can pretty much easily test it in any playing style. Those interested should indicate which playing styles they can or cannot cover. If you're an ardent PvE guy then you are not very useful in testing this. You should also be competent in PvP. --Karlos 18:21, 15 June 2006 (CDT)

I think it's a bad idea for the GuildWiki to host Guild Wars-related product reviews. By their very nature these will not be neutral articles. Note that we don't have guild pages, fanfiction, fancomics, "journals" (except in user pages) and so on because the reason has always been that it is impossible to be objective about such content. We don't even have an official review of Guild Wars! There is also the issue of whether we should have such overtly commercial content in the wiki (reviews, unless they are pans, are glorified advertisements). I think the gamewikis blog is a much better place for such product review articles. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 18:31, 15 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Upon further review, I agree with Stabber. It's not really what we do. This is product placement. The entry for ZBoard should be the same as that for Ventrilo or TeamSpeak. Just a basic description of what that is. Not a review/thumbs up/thumbs down. We're not gonna put a user manual in the wiki for how to use it either. --Karlos 19:13, 15 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Oh, the review is supposed to go in the wiki? That doesn't sound too good to me. But it's not too bad either because it is a directly GW related product. As long as the review is neutral and formal I'm ok with it. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 02:10, 16 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I think it should be halfway between Team Speak and Prima Guide. The art work had to be licensed from Anet, and the GuildWars.com homepage has a square-ish banner for the zBoard.  - 03:18, 16 June 2006 (CDT)

They must be desperate to get rid of them if they're trying to offload one onto you Phil ;) I don't think it's necessarily outside the scope of the site, but I agree with Stabber. Imagine if we were to create the article Zboard or something. What would it actually contain? It's always been understood that articles on the GuildWiki should only contain factual information, so we'd just have to say "Here are some pictures, it's used to control Guild Wars".

If we decided to change our policy and review it then we'd be opening the doors to all kinds of articles. By the time you've read this message Microsoft Intellimouse Explorer will be up for Peer Review.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 08:40, 16 June 2006 (CDT)

So... no one has any contest ideas right? - 07:39, 19 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I suppose I can just tell them 'no', then. Gravewit 13:24, 20 June 2006 (CDT)


 * If they expect a review article on guildwiki, then the answer is probably no. If they just want to give one out for promotion, then I won't mind taking one. I can post a review on my person blog that no one reads at all d-: - 03:57, 21 June 2006 (CDT)

Even though I do get mine delivered tomorrow (with swedish key layout), I agree with Stabber, Karlos, Gem, etc. It would just mean free marketing for them. So I believe it's safe to say no. &mdash; Galil  16:08, 20 June 2006 (CDT)

Site performance issues due to June 15 update
According to Gravewit, the server load is doing fine. The problem is bandwidth bottleneck. In case anyone is wondering. - 11:05, 16 June 2006 (CDT)

Blocking Vandals
We had a vandal attacking the page today using multiple IPs. I'm not sure if there is a procedure for dealing with this, I blocked individual IPs to begin with, but then I blocked an IP range.

From a technical point of view, after looking at the block list, it appears User:Eightyfour-onesevenfive tried to block him earlier using a 0 to represent the range of IP addresses. For clarification, the correct way to block an ip such as 64.12.116.x is to block 64.12.116.0/24. This is because an IP address is a 32-bit number and it tells MediaWiki to use only the first 24 bits as a mask.

I blocked 64.12.116.0/24 and 64.12.117.0/24.

Because this was a range of IP addresses I only banned them for 1 week. Do you think this was the right thing to do?  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 05:01, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * We could not let him stay without blocking so you did the right thing blocking him. One week seems ok to me, and if this happens again after the week, we can just ban him for another week. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 05:04, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Heh, only a week? &mdash; Skuld  05:06, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Blocking a whole IP range for more than a week isn't a good idea. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 05:08, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Meh, I should've thought of that "/24" thingie... *rolls eyes*. I agree on only a short term ban for now, but I have the serious feeling that this isn't the last time we heared about that one. --84-175 (talk) 05:14, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * 64.12.116.0/23! --68.142.13.99 05:40, 17 June 2006 (CDT)

yeah he only banned me for a week. too bad it didnt work. btw: poop


 * lol. I should be around most of the day, if there's any more vandalism that I miss you can spam my talk page.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 05:13, 17 June 2006 (CDT)

IP range bans can be bad, granted, but we're talking about AOL addresses here. I wonder if he was repeatedly connecting and disconnecting his dial-up modem or something (nothing against dial-up, it's just an idiotic way to change IPs). ;) &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 05:17, 17 June 2006 (CDT) )


 * Yeah, it looks like that is what he was doing. Coincidentally 152.163.100.9 is also an AOL IP.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 05:24, 17 June 2006 (CDT)

Blocking IP Ranges: A suggestion
I've been thinking about blocking IP ranges, and I think we should come up with a guideline. When blocking an IP range there is a chance that we will inadvertently also block genuine contributors. This cannot really be helped. However, we can ensure that genuine contributors are not offended by the banning if we make sure the ban message is not insulting. i.e. I think we should avoid ban messages such as "Die Spammer, Die!" or even "let's play".

What do you think?  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 05:34, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * IP range blocks should probably not stay in place for long unless absolutely necessary. I think it would be better to keep any non-insignificant range blocked for a week at most unless the vandal shows again.  A message about IP range blocks should be added to MediaWiki:Blockedtext and perhaps something like "IP range block: reason" should be the ban reason.  Non-insulting ban message should probably be used in any case.  --68.142.13.99 05:41, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I think the Blockedtext should have a general note about the error possibilities of IP based bans (dynamic IPs). --84-175 (talk) 05:48, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I agree. Here's what the text currently looks like

Your user name or IP address has been blocked by $1. The reason given is this: $2

You may contact $1 or one of the other administrators to discuss the block.

(If this automated message says you have been blocked by Adam.skinner for vandalism, it is due to a known bug. Please wait a few minutes and try again.)

Note that you may not use the "e-mail this user" feature unless you have a valid e-mail address registered in your user preferences.

Your IP address is $3. Please include this address in any queries you make.

Which parts should we change to reflect this information?  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 06:10, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I'd suggest ripping off Wikipedia's and warping it to our needs. --68.142.13.99 06:42, 17 June 2006 (CDT)
 * I would also suggest contacting the ISP of the user and file an internet abuse report with their support department, if such a user is using a dynamic IP to continually and repeativly deface the site. --Draygo Korvan 18:47, 17 June 2006 (CDT)

Vote

 * Keep the green links
 * --LordKestrel 20:11, 20 June 2006 (CDT) I guess I'm alone in liking the Green Links, it really makes them standout, which IMO is a good thing. Icons aren't so great.
 * Use the icon
 * I'm a known icon-fan(atic). Second choice is plain text. No colored text please. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 09:58, 19 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Since I made the icon it seems wrong to vote for plaintext :P but I really don't mind either.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 14:15, 29 June 2006 (CDT)
 * (your vote here)
 * Use plain text
 * --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] Green links as second choice. No for icon.
 * --MRA (while I would rather like to see the icon than the technicolor-links)
 * --Nilles 16:47, 18 June 2006 (CDT) (second choice: icon)
 * --66.92.33.187 16:50, 18 June 2006 (CDT)
 * --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 20:42, 18 June 2006 (CDT)
 * --Rapta 22:07, 18 June 2006 (CDT)
 * I'd be okay with icons, too... overriding the text color is just a bad UI idea, however. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 22:23, 18 June 2006 (CDT) )
 * --Rainith 23:55, 18 June 2006 (CDT) Green links as second choice. No for icon. (I'm not copying your user page Gem, just your vote.) (Biro, while I like your icon, I dislike the addition of said icons to that area of the bestiary pages.)
 * --Xasxas256 07:44, 19 June 2006 (CDT) no icon, no green text, just good old wikification.
 * --Lord Ehzed 07:54, 19 June 2006 (CDT) (but would also be happy with the icon)
 * --Draygo Korvan 10:50, 19 June 2006 (CDT) (Plain text is fine and dandy. Perhaps under a subheading (like: Unique Items) under items dropped)
 * --Gares Redstorm 11:53, 19 June 2006 (CDT) (Anything, but the icon. No offense to Biro, but I'm not much for icons.)
 * --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 20:36, 20 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Abstain
 * Galil  16:22, 20 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Galil  16:22, 20 June 2006 (CDT)

In case green links wins:


 * Bold
 * (your vote here)


 * Normal
 * --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]]
 * --Nilles 16:47, 18 June 2006 (CDT)
 * --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 20:42, 18 June 2006 (CDT)
 * --Rapta 22:07, 18 June 2006 (CDT)
 * --Rainith 23:55, 18 June 2006 (CDT)
 * --Lord Ehzed 07:54, 19 June 2006 (CDT)
 * --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 09:58, 19 June 2006 (CDT)
 * --Karlos 16:16, 19 June 2006 (CDT): Making things pretty in a simple way is something we should always do.
 * --Galil  16:22, 20 June 2006 (CDT)
 * --LordKestrel 20:11, 20 June 2006 (CDT)
 * --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 20:36, 20 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Abstain

Discussion
I'm not sure if or where this has been discussed before, but I recently encountered several wikilinks leading to unique items in boldface typeset and green characters, see Rotscale or Gargash Thornbeard for instance.

From a design persepective, I am not very happy about this idea, since (beside the fact that boldface rarely is a good design decision) it weighs to heavy in the eye, distracts the reader from the text and makes the page too colorful by a color that does not belong to GuildWikis usual color palette. Moreover, since the color of wikilinks used to be connected to some functionality aspects of the site (like 'red' impliyng the article doesn't exist) I find this somewhat confusing. I really believe mere being an unique item doesn't qualify for an own link color. What comes next? Each boss getting a link in the color of their profession, like #FF0088 or #008800?

If there has already been a community decision/vote upon this matter please give me a hint where to find the discussion and please excuse for bringing up the matter again. --MRA 08:44, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I agree. I hate the green links.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 09:12, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I like them and have nothing against them. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 11:50, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Use your own CSS to override them. See User:Deldda Kcarc/monobook.css for how I do it, because I hate technicolor links also. Deldda Kcarc 12:17, 17 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Thanks for the hint, but my comment was less about how I can avoid these links and rather about how this wiki presents itself to the casual reader per se. --MRA 12:33, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Yeah, I'm fully aware I could remove them. That's besides the point really. I think it makes sense from a usability perspective to have links blue and underlined, and to have links to blank pages red, and no other colours.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 13:28, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * While I am not arguing in favor of the green links, I would like to point out that they do have blue underlines for created articles, and red underlines for missing articles. --Rainith 13:41, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * No harm, some benefit, echoes ANet's growing obsession with green items. I am fine with them. If the template is straight forward, and the effect is desirable, then why not? --Karlos 15:55, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Like Rainith pointed out they do show red or blue underlines, and how many green item templates are to red links anyway? I'm sure users find it helpful to have uniques picked out different from regular items &mdash; Skuld  16:13, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I understood your point perfectly, MRA and LordBiro. My suggestion was a short circuit to the only workable solution because I expected the strong showing of support for the green links, as seen above. If this were to be put to a vote, our side would lose soundly. Deldda Kcarc 17:37, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I don't agree that it does no harm. Personally I believe that valid links should be blue, underlined, not bold. It's what people expect to see. If links don't look like this as standard then it's confusing. We could change all links to a different style, but having some links using one style and some links using another style is a bad design choice.


 * Because the green colour is unusual within the GuildWiki itself you have to move your mouse over the text to clarify if it's a link or not. That is really poor interface design.


 * I don't think this is a case of "no harm, some benefit". There are plenty of items ArenaNet colour purple or light blue, we don't change our links to reflect that. Equally Henchmen are coloured green and friendly NPCs are coloured yellow-green and we don't use those colours for links. Enemies are coloured red, and we don't use red for links. It just seems like a bad idea to me.


 * I wouldn't even mind if an icon was used next to links to unique items, at least then the link itself would still be blue!  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 18:29, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * P.S. Sorry if it feels like I'm picking on you today Karlos, I love you really :P
 * I would say get rid of the boldface but go ahead and leave it green. --Draygo Korvan 18:49, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I think removing the boldface might be a good idea, but I still want the green to stay. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 19:03, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I am fine with removing it, fine with removing the bold and fine even with switching the template to an icon of a green weapon next to a regular blue link. I just think distinguishing the drops is cool and does no harm. --Karlos 19:11, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * The boldface is kinda blatant, but distinguishing green drops from normals is not a bad thing, don't you think? I think LordBiro has made a very good suggestion there. An icon to point them out would be less confusing than the formatting. --Nilles 19:42, 17 June 2006 (CDT)

Oh god no! Not more icons, keep the green text, unbold it if you want. --Rainith 20:13, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Hope you like it Rainith ;)  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 07:31, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I see the green template as straight to the point what the items are. In Guild Wars their text is always green and I would think users associate that color to those items. As for icons, I am in agreement with Rainith on this one, for the love of Pete, no. You have skill icons, what more do you need? :P --Gares Redstorm 07:42, 18 June 2006 (CDT)

Most of all, I don't understand why unique items should be so special to Guild Wars that they deserve a special representation on the technical layer of this wiki (the color of the hyperlinks). Of course, unique items are special compared to common items, but no more special than Boss mobs are special to common mobs, Elite Skills are special to common Skills or Elite Missions are special to usual storyline Missions, etc. Are we going to give all these special topics some special representation on the technical layer, or why are unique items so special special? (Ok, I'll stop using the word special now.)

BTW, LordBiro, the icon looks really nice, but I don't understand what is wrong with a simple listing like:


 * Items dropped
 * Thornbeard's Horned Bow (Unique)
 * Enslavement Stone
 * Dwarven Armor
 * Stone Summit Badge

as we have:


 * Skills used
 * Melandru's Arrows (Elite)
 * Precision Shot
 * Tiger's Fury
 * Troll Unguent

--MRA 15:02, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I have to say MRA you are right, I hadn't thought of it like that. I just tend to like icons :P but you make a valid point. If a lot of people would rather have icons then fair enough, at the moment I'm somewhere in between icons and plain text. But still 100% against bold and/or green links.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 15:10, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I also have to admit that I would prefer some lean icon like the one you proposed over the green text links. Taking server load into account, I just think some plain text comments like given in the example above would be wiser.
 * So what is going to happen about this issue? I also notice some strong support for the green links within the community. Is there going to be some vote or is it still too early for such a thing? --MRA 15:31, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Vote sounds like the way to go, since strong support was voiced for each option. I'll add one at the top. --Xeeron 15:41, 18 June 2006 (CDT)

as super pretty as that icon is, i think it's not required. --Honorable Sarah 20:44, 18 June 2006 (CDT)

End of Vote?
So, it has been about a week with no new vote having been cast. When do we call this vote closed? And can I assume we decided against the green links, so I can start removing the templates? Yet, I'm kind of confused since far more people argued pro-green-links in the discussion than voted for it. --MRA 12:23, 27 June 2006 (CDT)
 * (Hmm ... seems like talking to myself? ;) So, I'll start removing the green tags within the next days. Please stop me in time if you disagree. --MRA 13:30, 29 June 2006 (CDT)
 * For now just change the green template to make the links normal, dont go editing the actual pages and removing the template =). --Draygo Korvan (Yap) 13:36, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

Request for demotion of User:Karlos
I know this will fall on deaf ears, and Karlos will surely revert this and ban me the second he sees it, but he does not deserve to be a sysop on this wiki any longer. He has wantonly violated several key policies of the wiki today, not the least of which violations is abusing his sysop powers to exert editorial control over another user's pages and impose week-long blocks on said user.

It is completely foolish of me to even suggest this demotion because the wiki has no oversight policies and no means of appeal for administrative action. However, I am making it so there is some record, however fleeting, of opposition to Karlos' actions.

Because I am confident nothing will come of this request, I have requested all the evidence---my user pages---to be erased. I am sure none of my requests for deletion will be honored. I am further sure that, far from demotion, the wiki will circle their wagons around Karlos and will do whatever is necessary to make Karlos' actions retroactively justified and me out to be the sole guilty party. I understand the nature of communities well enough to see the utter futility in my bringing this up here and now. Therefore, this request for demotion is a mere formality.

I will not read or comment on the wiki after this comment. I do not wish the wiki well. I wish it the worst.

-- DK 03:54, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Lol. No need to comment, but I still will. There is NO point in the recent disputes which have caused so many users to leave the wiki. I find the fighting here stupid (and funny if it wouldn't have such results), but I relly can't do anything about it. I'm not sure what you think that was wrong use of admin powers by Karlos, but I myself don't like it that you delete individual comments on your user page from other people. Removing negative feedback isn't a way to work in a wiki. You should answer and discuss, not just delete, delete and then finally place a delete tag so that your history of negative feedback will vanish. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 04:05, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Fall on your sword again Stabber/Deldda Kcarc, see if it works this time. --Rainith 04:13, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Wha? Deldda is Stabber? This is confusing, i'm going to stamp on some chipmonks -_- &mdash; Skuld  04:22, 18 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Confused? I wasn't as soon as I saw Stabber upload Image:Black Moa Availability.jpg and then upload it again almost right afterwards.  I went to see if the first image needed deleting for some reason, but after I saw it, I decided not to wipe it out.  It actually made me laugh.  Then I started looking thru some of DK's old edits and noticed a lot of similarities, including the ones done today (FSK skill icon uploads, that were altered exactly the same way Stabber's were).  Add in the Superman/Clark Kent action and it makes sense.  --Rainith 05:05, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Hah! Extremely amusing! He's referring to this. Hee hee. :) I actually went with him (I assume it's safe to say him now) to FoW and even in a group in Cantha in some mission (I think beating Shiro). So, FG was right about (some of) the sockpuppets theory. Wow. --Karlos 05:13, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I don't think you should be rubbing your hands with too much glee. I don't feel as though you should be off the hook yet. Like PanSola (see below), I also disagree with your actions during the "DK incident". You seem to think that your edits have some "administrator power" behind them when they're basically just normal edits anyone else would do except the person who's doing them happens to be an admin. --Xasxas256 05:27, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * No glee, sir. Sheer amusement. I find the whole saga captivating at this moment. And I responded below. --Karlos 05:33, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Not going to comment on this request itself, but I do disagree with Karlos' actions pretty much completely during the relavent dispute (including the bans and the reverts) - 04:23, 18 June 2006 (CDT)
 * See my thoughts on Karlos' actions at User_talk:Karlos. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 04:31, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I will take this request seriously, even if Crack Addled does not. Here is my reasoning:
 * I believe that significant discussions of a user's contributions should be maintained. If a user does not like the "bad rap" on his talk page, then the content should be moved elsewhere. But to wipe it from existence is to cheat the community. I know it's in the history books, but that means it's not "searchable" i.e. findable.
 * I was wrong to place the saved copy in his user space. I was thinking it would be an easy place to find it, but of course if he never wanted it in his talk page to begin with, he won't like it in his user space either. I took that part out of the equation pretty quickly and moved the talk to non-user space.
 * I did not ban Crack Addled because I was trying to force some page on his user space. In fact, I honored his right to place a delete tag on it. I banned him for a couple of hours because he was butting heads with an admin over administrative policies. Now, I could have just moved it out of his user space and let it rest, but, like I said to PanSola, the precedent of Rving an admin on an administrative edit and ignoring his instructions isa VERY bad precedent.
 * I agree with Gem that deleting criticism from one's talk page is lame. We should perhaps consider keeping track of this? The reason I wanted to archive Crack Addled's talk is because he has a history with the wiki and I wanted there to be a continuation of that history. I did not want that history to be subject to whether Karlos is till around, or whether Pansola still remembers which talk page that discussion was wiped from.
 * I believe Crack's further actions and words speak for themselves. Overall, he could have went to the talk page of that article and said: "Look, this might belong in the wiki, but it sure as heck does not belong in my user space, if I don't want it." And he would have won that argument by a landslide. He chose the path of "It's me or you" and "let's make it personal baby." I would expect any user in this wiki when told by an admin not to change a page (for administrative purposes, not squabble over content) to respect that request. Be that user someone I like, like Gem, or an anonymous guy.
 * --Karlos 04:52, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * The next comment was moved from User talk:Karlos. The comment and its responses are moved back there.  They were not meant to relate to teh request on demotion, only on the sepecific issue of administrative edits that was originally raised in the User talk page.


 * Holy sh*t. I leave for an extended weekend just to find this wiki community turned into one big clusterf*ck when I return. :eek:
 * I have only a few things to say about this whole drama, because of real life I have little time for the wiki this week:
 * Changing names, hiding behind fake / imposter names ("sockpuppet" / "smurf") or hiding behind an anonymous IP is poor. Repeatedly "leaving" an online community (or threatening to do so) and returning shortly after (under the same or a different user name) is poor. To believe that by changing your nickname you can clear your record, avoid having to stand by your words, avoid being accounted for what you did, avoid having to take responsibility, is piss poor. If you're doing it, do yourself a favor and stop it. Grow a backbone. Grow some guts. Grow some balls (if you're a man, that is ;)). At the end of the day you'll feel much better. Having said that, I'll admit I'm guilty of fakenickin' myself. Pssst .... don't tell anybody. I promise, I won't do it again. ;) Two times during the 10 years of my "online life", I have used an alternative nick to keep contributing to an online community while I was officially "on leave". One of that is Fisherman's Friend. Note the image mouse-over, and note who added it. Also, feel free to check FF's user contributions. He didn't strirr any trouble and didn't participate in any disputes at all. No harm done, I hope.
 * For the record: I'm not saying anybody did or did not fakenick. Frankly, I don't know what to believe, and I'm not willing to waste time and energy with an in-depth investigation. I have more important things to do right now, both in real life and in this wiki. I don't give a rat's ass if Stabber, Deldda, Seventy.twenty, Karlos, F_G, Aerosmith, Tetris L, Fisherman's Friend, whoever, ... are the same person. I'll treat them all as individuals for now and judge each of them by his individually deeds. And I have to say that as far as I remember none of them did any major harm to the editorial content of this wiki. Quite the opposite. I remember most of them as technically skilled, valuable contributors, making mostly reasonable and well-founded edits. Their behaviour an talk pages is a different matter, but that is secondary to me. They may share a strange tendency to get into fights on talk pages with a bit of a holier than thou attitude, and to leave the wiki as a martyr in drama, but that may be coincedence. And even if these are all fakenicks of the same person: Fakenickin' may be poor, and a sign of weakness, but IMO is no banable offense as such. Only if the multiple nicks are abused to rig votes or discussions
 * As for Karlos' role on the matter, this may surprise some around here after my own clashes with him, but I'll gladly vouch for him. Yes, he isn't impeccable, but who is? I still consider him as one of the most upright people around here. I believe that what he does is in good faith and for the greater good of the wiki. There are very few people on this wiki that I trust more when it comes to certain things. I believe that he strives hard to meet his own high standards of neutrality and objectivity. If there is anything that you might accuse him of it's that he is sometimes overzealous watching over these rules and that sometimes he fails to see that we're not living in an ideal world, and that all humans (including himself) make errors. Karlos, this wasn't meant to be patronizing or to belittle you. Please don't take it as such!
 * In any case banning nicknames or IPs won't solve the problem. Most of the people involved here are technically skilled enough to know how to bypass an IP bans anyway. We'll have to work this out in discussion.
 * Note: I didn't have time to hone this post word by word. It was written in a rush, so please don't take offense of single sentences or words. I hope you see my overall intentions behind it. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 10:23, 19 June 2006 (CDT)

Request for backreferencing user IPs
Can someone who has access to the server logs please post all the usernames that have been used from the IP addresses 128.2.206.194, 128.2.196.71 and 128.2.141.33, as all three of them seem to be from the same organization that has been confirmed to be the location of User:Stabber, who has been confirmed as using sockpuppets and is suspected of tampering votes? This will settle the sockpuppet debate once and for all, and I am sure will be very illuminating for all concerned. Thanks. 216.9.82.85 18:43, 18 June 2006 (CDT)
 * This wont prove anything, if stabber is working at a university - backreferincing those IP's wont get you jack. It is highly likely that several of stabbers fellow workers might have gotten into guild wiki under stabbers influence. --Draygo Korvan 10:11, 19 June 2006 (CDT)

Where do we go from here?
Ok, in the aftermath of this soap opera. Where do we want to go with this? I have a few questions that I think we should answer. I have not thought about this since yesterday. So, I am going to ask these questions now, and then perhaps later, some of them will not seem as important. I would appreciate rational thought and logical discourse. Posts telling us Stabber is the devil and should be banned for life do not help the dicussion. So, let's try and think through this objectively. --Karlos 21:00, 18 June 2006 (CDT)
 * 1) Do we CARE about sockpuppetry? i.e. Do we want to know if a user has sockpuppet accounts?
 * 2) What is our stand on sockpuppetry? i.e. is it a punishable offense or is it just something to mark down to fight fraud?
 * 3) How do we discover sockpuppetry? It's obviously discoverable given a long enough stalking and paying attention to details. Are we going to start stalking each other? Stalking people who support each other in arguments? Is there a "sane" way to do this?
 * 4) Do we want to do anything about Stabber?


 * In my opinion, yes. Using sockpuppets is not contributing in good faith. WP:SOCK should be adopted here.
 * It should be punishable if provable, and provably used to sway consensus in discussions and votes. Again, I think the remedies in WP:SOCK are worth examining.
 * Install the CheckUser extension (link to source code is towards the end). Gravewit can then effortlessly determine which users have used what IPs, and also all users a given IP has used. Note: I do not recommend giving CheckUser access to anyone but those who already have access to the server logs, viz. Gravewit and Nunix.
 * Only if he/she returns. I would recommend a permanent ban placed on his/her confirmed sockpuppets, but leave one identity alone.
 * These are just my opinions. If you don't like them, I have others... Arrowsmith 21:19, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * My thoughts:
 * The major issues of sockpupptry are causing drama and affecting votes. I think looking for sockpuppets, hunting them down, and squash them cause far more drama than its worth.  By completely scrapping the voting idea, we'll overall be better off with not caring about who is a sockpuppet of who.
 * I'm not overly concerned with DK's last words "I wish this wiki the worse". I consider it immature hotheaded remarks as a strong rebound reaction to a (conceived) overly heavyhanded action.  The only "vandalism" that follows from that was a bitter edit on Community expectations regarding admin powers.  While it doesn't hurt to be careful, being overly concerned over it will simply cause unnecessary paranoia/drama.
 * For anything that is deemed "administrative edits", mark it clearly (adn mark it in the actual page, not just in the edit summary). Do not assume because you have teh status of an admin, adn you issued an order, that other users will preceive it as an administrative edit.  It turned out I was actually wrong when I said something that implied none of my edits were "administrative edits".  The one "administrative edit" I made was with respect to either a delete or ban request that I removed but got slapped back.  In order to avoid a revert war on that, I "subst:" the delete/ban template, then manually edit the contents to say there was a request that was rejected by the admin PanSola for reasons blah blah blah.  That was the type of edit that only an admin can make, and should not be reverted.  - 22:00, 18 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I've been trying to stay out of this because I'm disgusted with how most of this stuff has panned out, but I feel the need to comment here:
 * Since we have votes and a voting population of about 10-20, sock puppets are a big deal. Stabber, for example, seemed to use sockpuppets to do controversial things without getting flack for it, which is also a big deal. Sockpuppets do nothing to enhance anonymity and a lot to undermine Guildwiki's creative process.
 * As a result of the above, sock puppets should be purged mercilessly. Their puppeteers should, at the very least, receive a strong reprimand. Doing something bad with a sock puppet should be considered a greater offense than just doing something bad, as the puppetry indicates that you know you're doing something wrong and that you want to hide it.
 * Other people's suggested technical solutions could work. While I generally don't want Guildwiki to be Wikipedia or to copy most of its policies, definitely look at how they do it. If we opt to add some kind of IP logger, only the site owners and maybe one particularly trusted active admin should have access to it.
 * I think neither Stabber (clarification added later: or whoever the hell DK is... I don't know anymore, and I don't really want to) nor FG have the capacity to meaningfully contribute to the wiki anymore. Both have done much to damage the community. This isn't about exiling people we don't like, however. Thus, as stated above, all sock puppets should be burned with fire; FG definitely deserves a reprimand for how he carried out his crusade, but I don't think it quite approaches the level of a permanently bannable offense; I have no strong feelings about whether Stabber should or shouldn't be perma-banned.
 * &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 22:21, 18 June 2006 (CDT) ), ammended 00:38, 19 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I feel that I should post here as it seems that I'm the person who "discovered" this issue (not the first person to raise it, just the first to post proof of it). I dislike people who use multiple accounts with the intent to deceive.  The very first online game I played had a very simple rule, multiple accounts were not allowed unless sanctioned by the "Wizards" (essentially the admins in charge of the coding/monitoring of the MUD).  This may be part of where my distaste for this comes from, the rest is probably just part of basic human nature in that we don't like to be fooled.
 * I think we should define specifically what we consider to be "Sockpuppetry" and what is to be done about it. I'd imagine something like the following:
 * If you create another account because of a technical problem with your current account (like the CSS stylesheet issue that affected PanSola and 161.88.x.x a while back) and are sufficently upfront about it (PanSola's new account was SolaPan and 161.88.x.x's was I am 161.88) then there is no problem. If/When the account problem is cleared up, one account should be chosen and the other abandoned.
 * If at some point you come clean about having used multiple accounts, before you are discovered, then temporary blocks should be done. The length of the block should depend on the severity of what was done with the accounts.  We should create clear  guidelines for block times in these situations and they should be followed. (note: if this is implemented retroactively, it may affect Tetris L/Fisherman's Friend)
 * If someone else discovers and submits proof that you have been using multiple accounts and rules 1 and 2 don't apply, you should be blocked for a long term/permanent basis. Again, I think we should create clear guidelines for this.
 * I also agree that TOR IPs should probably be blocked as there is a considerable possiblity for abuse. Those are my thoughts on the matter.  Some/many people may disagree with me.  --Rainith 00:16, 19 June 2006 (CDT)
 * There should be no issue with #1, any more than there is an issue with putting "IP X is my account" on you user page. I also think that any form of maintaining multiple accounts openly should be okay: Karlos talked about "hats", for example, and I wouldn't have a problem with an admin making separate "as user" and "as admin" accounts to separate his personal opinions from his administrivial edits, if that was what he wanted to do. As long as you link all your accounts together prominently on their respective user pages, really, there should be no problem with mulptiple accounts, regardless of why you made them. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 00:25, 19 June 2006 (CDT) )


 * 1. Yes, sockpuppetry implies you have a second account for nefarious purposes such as starting arguments with yourself for some good ol' drama, vote rigging, doing something 'naughty' but not have your 'main' account banned, et al. However, linking your accounts together specifically so you can be traced should be acceptable, there are a number of good reasons to have a second account, so long that it is traceable back to your 'main' account.


 * 2. Punishable by flogging. Sadly with no ability to do such actions, some passe bans will have to do, preferably on the 'main' account. Banning the sockpuppet is largely meaningless, as someone who is using them is simply going to make another.


 * 3. Ugh. Witchhunts are never fun and simply cause hysteria amongst the population. For the time being it seems like we have just one prolific sockpuppet user, lets deal with that issue before grabbing the pitchforks and setting forth to burn the heathen.


 * 4. Ahh Stabber, our little drama queen/king. His/her dubious gender aside, pretty much all the recent drama has come about through some sort of interaction with him/her, be it a revert war, the recent witchhunt, or simple rumourmongering. This is not entirely his/her fault, but he/she has been caught in a number of lies and has a history of childish 'well I'm taking my toys and going home' actions. I'm not sure punishment is the best approach to be honest, if he/she wants to continue to contribute it must be under the knowledge that sockpuppetry and suchlike will not be tollerated. Ok he/she has done a good lot of work for the wiki, but the ridiculous drama which seems to follow him/her like the plague is just getting too much.


 * As an aside, I'm concerned with the 'White Knight' effect that has caught a few people. By this I mean they see a 'girl' on the internet, and immediately feel honourbound to leap to her defense regardless of anything else, through some misplaced sense of duty. Sure I'll open doors for women, allow them to sit down before I do, and so forth, but on the internet where everyone is a balding fat man in his 40s until proven otherwise, simply stating 'btw, I'm a girl' can get you preferrential treatment regardless of any actual proof. I've seen this a number of times in the recent past, and on a number of messageboards, games and so on. Please, for the sake of actual productive interactions, don't try and jump in the pants of everyone who claims to be female or feel honourbound to defend them :( GregPalo 05:31, 19 June 2006 (CDT)

Warning: Stabber appears to have responded in User talk:Stabber. In my opinion, his/her rebuttal is not convincing. Others may feel differently. I still propose permanent bans on his/her confirmed sockpuppets, viz. User:Deldda Kcarc and User:Koyashi. Arrowsmith 00:58, 19 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Yes. Socketpuppetry (if done hidden) breaks good faith and conjures up a huge host of problems: Voting, community consensus, revert/delete rules, appropriate credit/blame for actions. Especially I do not believe that we can stop having votes. In the end each form of decision making is a vote, unless it is done autocratically by one leader (not workable here since Gravewit is not participating in day-to-day issues, and neither my preferece) or by unanimity (which leads to extremely long discussion and worse, might not be achievable). Lets say I and some other user argue that socketpuppets should be banned, while 10 people say they dont care. Even though this is not a vote, I would back down and we would have established a new policy. Now if those 10 people where actually 1 person, they would have influenced the wiki, even though there was no vote and regardless of how good their arguments were.
 * If someone OPENLY (by adding a note to each userpage) uses multiple accounts, nothing should be done, since there are legitimate reasons to have more then one account. Multiple accounts without such a note should be a bannable offense.
 * Note1: Ban on both accounts
 * Note2: The length of the ban should be handled by the admins
 * Note3: This punishment should not be used retroactively, since we had no clear policy on this before
 * Imho, there is not really a sane way, except by chance. But sooner or later the puppetmaster will trip up and someone will notice. I would not recommend actively searching for socketpuppets (but of course noone can stop users from doing so).
 * As I said in 3., no. Punishments should not be used retroactively. However I feel Stabber will have a hard time to be a normal contributer here after all the drama. --Xeeron 05:55, 19 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Seems all the good points have been said. I will second the complete and total block of TOR and any other anonymous internet communication systems. No current user or potential user should feel the need to "hide" while contributing. --Gares Redstorm 12:57, 19 June 2006 (CDT)

Let's come up with Fansite Friday questions
No we haven't been asked to solicit Fansite Friday questions (to the best of my knowledge), but I'm just trying to get discussion going on what are some questions that we would really like to see cleared up from the Anet devs. If you are affiliated with any Fansites that are being asked Fansite Friday questions, feel free to use what is here.

My question: "How does interruption vs Kuunavang work?" Because Fansite Friday has in the past explained how the Guild Lord's health/protection work before, I believe we should be able to get an answer for this question. - 06:16, 19 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I could just ask Gaile to pass some of these on, if you'd like. Gravewit
 * I think we should get a few more questions first. Maybe a couple about chapter 3 and NCsofts registration of certain domain names =P. Maybe we can also ask what the total HP of Rotscale is now? --Draygo Korvan 11:06, 19 June 2006 (CDT)

Make Guildwiki multi-lingual?
I suggest making several subsites of guildwiki (like gw-en.gamewikis.org gw- [language-code] .gamewikis.org) to support multiple languages. I think in a game that covers several nationalities, having wikis in each native language would be helpful for the greater guild wars community. Anyway this is just a proposal.--Draygo Korvan 11:11, 19 June 2006 (CDT)


 * After all the drama just a few headlines up from here, I dont feel ready for the next "guildwiki in different languages" debate yet. --Xeeron 12:00, 19 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I don't actually feel confident enough making up roughly 5% of German the contributers here. Maybe if we had like at least 40 contributers for a language, such effords would have some perspective. It's not just the translation stuff, it's debating, copying news, patrolling, administrating, lending newbies a hand etc... --Nilles 13:43, 19 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Are you guys aware that there is already a German GuildWiki at http://www.guildwiki.de, which is essentally a copy of gw.gamewikis.org?! (They don't even try to hide the fact that they use the English GuildWiki as their paradigm.) I don't know if that's approved by Gravewit or anyone else, or if they even need an approval, considering the Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike. I'm German myself, so if you need somebody to contact and talk to the makers of GuildWiki.de, let me know. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 13:58, 19 June 2006 (CDT)
 * No I am not aware, and thats part of the problem, I think we should interlink to guildwiki's in other languages. Nilles, the problem with that arguement is that you cant quantify all the germans that have no ability to contribute in english. I also think this is a step back from all the drama, I dont forsee anyone flashing their e-ego's over this issue. --Draygo Korvan 14:16, 19 June 2006 (CDT)

Specific issue with GuildWiki.de
While contents under GuildWiki is under CC by-nc-sa, what about the name "GuildWiki" itself? I'm a bit disturbed that the logo of GuildWiki and the name "GuildWiki" is getting used by another site without our knowledge/permission. But if it doesn't violate anything, then of course there's nothing to be done. - 16:43, 19 June 2006 (CDT)


 * guildwiki.de is of course, different than guildwiki.org or guildwiki.com. So they are well within their rights with the domain name, as far as using the logo I think the logo, as everything within this site falls under the license, and because they gave the source of that logo to this site they are protected by that license. I'm no legal expert though =p. --Draygo Korvan 20:11, 19 June 2006 (CDT)


 * It's not about legality, it's just not cool. --Karlos 02:58, 20 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I agree that starting a copy project without at least telling us is very bad style. And I don't even understand why. I don't think that anyone here would've disagreed to that project (as mentioned, on what legal ground anyway?). If they'd come here, they may even had gotten a prominent link somewhere on Guildwiki (.org, that is) and with that cheap and effective promotion. --84-175 (talk) 03:54, 20 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Actually I have no issue with starting a copy project without telling us, as long as it's still CC by-nc-sa. My personal issue is using the name "GuildWiki" without letting us know.  The French at least told us about it. - 04:03, 20 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I'll try to get in touch with Chronos, the guy behind GuildWiki.de. Maybe he did ask for a German version of GuildWiki.org at one point in the past or tried to contact us. I'll try to find out. The problem is that my time for GWiki is very limited at the moment.
 * For your info, the introduction text on the Main Page of GuildWiki.de reads (translated): "This wiki is under construction and shall become the German issue of the English GuildWiki, without currently being linked to it directly." So at least they give credits and a prominent link to their rolemodel. I reckon they have good intentions and we should GW:AGF when dealing with them. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 12:10, 20 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I am fine with them using our name followed by ".de" in fact I think it's an honor. I just think they should have told us first. They don't have to tell us if they copy the whole wiki, but if they copy the name, style wise, they should tell us as many people will assume there is a connection.
 * I also want to note that there was someone asking about starting a german wiki some time ago and I think we all said go ahead and stuff. So, again, I would not be too concerned about the fact that they started a wiki that copied stuff from us. I don't really think it was done "behind our backs." Just the naming issue and what it implies. We have no editorial input on their content what-so-ever but the common name implies something. --Karlos 14:26, 20 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Uh, I have the same editorial control on guildwiki.de as I do here as a normal contributer. I think you are confusing terms a bit and mean "content control (administrative tasks etc)" over the actual site. --Draygo Korvan 14:33, 20 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Hello all, I think there's something to clarify. I am Chronos who put up the German Guildwiki. First some history. The idea to start a german version popped up after reading this article on the gamewikis blog. This was around April the 16th, 2006. After writing a comment there, I thought, if nobody starts a a wiki in another language, it will take ages to go multilingual - so before hoping that somewhere in the future a german wiki comes up, why just not do it by myself? I did some experiments/test with MediaWiki, and soon it was clear that its not so much work to set up the wiki. Then, on April, 25th, I sent an email to Phil to the gmail.com address. In this email I asked him if he has any concerns about a german GuildWiki, what he thinks about copying content from guildwiki.org, and how the licensing should look like etc. This was about 3 weeks before GuildWiki.de went "officially" online (by posting the news on the german fansite GuildWars.info). I never got an answer from Phil, so I thought this issue is of no big interest to him. So I just started the wiki, using the same licensing model though I prefered a totally free license. As far as I understand the "CC by-nc-sa" license it's ok to use/copy content as long as you use the same license, so I did use it. Of course, I mentioned on the licensing page, that content is/will be copied from GuildWiki.org. To answer some more of the above issues:
 * It's true, I did not officially tell the GuildWiki.org community what I am doing, and now I feel sorry for this lack of information, and I agree that this was bad style.
 * The idea was not to copy (in terms of steal) the idea, logo, name and content of GuildWiki.org in any way. It is just a german version, so many articles are are translated from the english "standard".
 * The use of the name "GuildWiki" is of course on purpose, to have a link to the original wiki."GuildWiki" is not a trademark and not protected, it is a part of the wiki which is under the "CC by-nc-sa" license. I think there is nothing wrong with it, as long as nobody claims any rights on the name (maybe Phil?).
 * Of course the (not official approved) relationship to the english version is not hidden. This is on purpose.
 * Apart from my "bad style" behaviour in information policy, why do you bother that the GuildWiki word is spread also in german? (Does anybody really bother?)
 * I think there are many native german speakers who have difficulties reading english but do like GuildWars and GuildWiki.org.
 * As mentioned above, I did ask about using "GuildWiki" and its content etc. Not the community, no, but the "guy behind GuildWiki.org".
 * Please be kind with my bad english, I can read but nearly not write.
 * Hopefully, this brings light in the GuildWiki.de issue... --Chronos 14:47, 20 June 2006 (CDT)
 * I like the fact that someone took the initiative to create a German GuildWiki. I do think it would have been cool to know about it beforehand, if for no other reason, than that it would have allowed the English GuildWiki to link to it.  And honestly, since it's mostly the same content, I don't see why the translation shouldn't be using the same name.  When you translate a book, you don't rename it (though you might translate the name)...why should it be any different with a wiki?  Saying it's "uncool" or "bad style" or whatever is unnecessarily harsh, IMHO. Dtremenak 16:37, 20 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I personally don't care if guildwiki.de is a German copy of this one. Considering I play in the european districts (being swede and all), I am well aware of most germans' lack of knowledge in English. I simply see it as a way of german users to be able to get the information we have here, in a language they can understand as well. I bet many of you don't know another language than English if it's your native language. Then one might ask, why should germans be forced to learn English if it's not their native tongue? The only real problem I see with this is the confusion it could cause. Someone on a forum saying "I got THE map of Cantha from GuildWiki!", people wouldn't know if it was the German or English GuildWiki, since they're not related. The best way out of this I think would be if guildwiki.de put an English link on their Main_Page or some place visible, pointing to this wiki so English users don't just assume GuildWiki is all German. Also, if guildwiki.de were to do something guildwiki.org would have never agreed on, I can see how it is indeed annoying. As already stated though, there's nothing anyone can do. GuildWiki isn't a registered trademark, and as such is free to use. The logo is probably the only thing you could really go on, but considering 80% of it consists of ANet's graphics, I don't see how you would have copyright of it. &mdash; Galil  16:51, 20 June 2006 (CDT)


 * By the way (off-topic and just for the records ;), every german is indeed forced to learn English at the latest by the beginning of her/his 5th school year (age ~10), sometimes even earlier, usually for a period of at least six years. On the other hand, if you perceive this "lack of knowledge in English" you mention, this maybe tells something about our school system ...
 * Regarding the potential confusion you mentioned, such problems also apply to Wikipedia, and they simply solve this by placing interwiki-links to the respective page of the other languages wiki. This should be no problem for GuildWiki either, especially if both sites would team up and work together (and as far as I can see, Chronos is more than willing to do so.)
 * My only fear is, that any GuildWiki in another language could draw upon the manpower of the community and weaken the english GuildWiki in its effort to reach perfection. ;) Since English is the language most commonly used throughout the internet community I find an english GuildWiki more valuable than a version for German-speaking users only. As I stated above, even germans should be able to speak and write English by the time they are old enough to play this game, while you can't assume the vice versa. --MRA 07:09, 22 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Again people are going into copyrights and what not. This is not about copyrights and laws. The question I have is: Chrono, do you not agree that by naming yourself "GuildWiki.de" there is an implication that your site is THE german version of Guildwiki.org? Let's say tomorrow, 84.175 starts his own copy and it becomes our "approved" translation of this site. Your site's name gives the misleading implication that it is THE translation of our site that WE are ok with.
 * I actually don't mind that. My beef is that our voice was never taken. It's like you making a site about Toyota and naming it Toyota.de (I know there are copyright issues there), it's misleading. Most people will assume that Toyota.de is affiliated with Toyota.com.
 * I would actually LOVE to put a link to your wiki on the main page that says "Now in German!" (with a german translation next to it) so that we can direct our German readers to your site (especially the not so literate ones like Xeeron) :). However, such a move would require Gravewit's approval and verification by Tetris/84.175/Xeeron that you guys are on the up and up in terms of adopting fair policies that will help your wiki reach the size of this wiki in due time.
 * So, for now, I would appreciate it if you places in no uncertain terms where you say this site copies GuildWiki.org that it is currently NOT affiliated with GuildWiki.org and is not some kind of subsidiary of it. --Karlos 18:15, 20 June 2006 (CDT)


 * My German is extremely poor; but it appears to me that http://www.guildwiki.de/ already mentions that it's not directly affiliated with this wiki. If I'm reading that correctly, then I have no issues.  My only additional request to further reduce any confusion from those who may use the german version is that they also develop a unique wiki icon for the upper left of their site.  I don't feel that's a major issue, but it would help in preventing confusion. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 20:23, 20 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Heh, to verify my translation, I tried using Babbelfish. Wow, and I thought my German was poor - Babbelfish makes me look almost fluent! --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 20:26, 20 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Heh, Babelfish is pure comedy. :D Most of those translation programs can't even translate single words correctly, let alone complete sentences. But you're correct, Barek, there is such a note on the Main Page of guildwiki.de, and if you scroll up you see that I've already translated it. Not sure if we consider it prominent enough and if we're happy with the wording, but that is something that can be worked on. --217.230.49.122 22:41, 20 June 2006 (CDT) <- This was me, not logged in. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 03:54, 21 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Can anyone who knows German well translate that part for us? Or can anyone who has better eyes find me the translation that I can "scroll up" to? --Karlos 01:00, 21 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Barek is right. This is the topmost paragraph of guildwiki.de:

"Welcome to the German Guildwiki, a wiki and guide for ArenaNet's online role playing game Guild Wars. The wiki is still under construction and is aimed to become the German version of th English Guildwiki, without being directly affiliated with it, at the moment."
 * Note the last line. While the wording can possible be improved (also note that my quick-and-dirty translation will probably not make it look too good, either ;), I am perfectly happy with the content. On a side note I would like to mention that I personally have absolutely nothing against guildwiki.de at all! If people are willing to put up the effort of translating guildwiki, by all means, go ahead! What I called "bad style" is not someone copying us. That is perfectly within the limits of the license and was to be expected sooner or later (actually, it has happened before, with sections). What I called "bad style" is doing so without telling us. But that issue has been resolved now. :) --84-175 (talk) 03:47, 21 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I know that we are not Wikipedia, but lets have a look at how they handle this. Wikipedia, consisting of 100+ laguange sub-wikipedias, is an entity, both legally and technically, legally run by the Wikipedia foundation, technically installed on their server farm, in one location. But still the individual language sub-wikipedias have a very high degree of freedom and autonomy. They do not even try to make one wiki a direct copy or a translation of the other. We all know that this would be impossible, as the content and design of each wiki is dynamic. You cannot possibly synch them all, keeping translations up-to-date. But not only is the content independent, but also the communities are autonomous. When you start a new wikipedia you only have to agree to some very basic policies that apply to all sub-Wikipedias. From that point on, each language has independent communities, admins, policies and rules. Each language works as a little democracy on its own. The head admins of Wikipedia do not expect to have full controll over each of the 100+ language sub-wikipedias.
 * With the Wikipedia model in mind, I could imagine a similar cooperation between en.guildwiki and de.guildwiki, with each of them being an independent community. There may be legal and technical issues that I have not considered yet, but that is something that Gravewit would have to look into first of all.
 * Also note that ANet's offer to host GuildWiki might affect the cooperation. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 04:36, 21 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Yeah, I am satisfied with the note too. Any talk of being affiliated with us will have to go through Gravewit. I'll ask him if he's okay with us posting a link to them in our main page for German users. --Karlos 04:40, 21 June 2006 (CDT)


 * The note is quite clear to me, I dont have any problem with guildwiki.de. That being said, I still see all the problems of translations of wikis, which means for me a single english wiki is the better concept. Of course anyone trying to get a translation going is free to do so and I wish them luck. --Xeeron 07:33, 21 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Notes: I have been working on getting multi-language stuff going here for awhile, and we may be at a point where we can try more languages. PanSola and I have been working behind-the-scenes on a chinese-language version of late. German may be up as well, if the server can handle the load. We'll probably be upgrading the webserver again anyway... one thing I don't like is them using the name GuildWiki, because GameWikis does 'own' the name, in the way that wikipedia owns the name wikipedia. Of course the actual content is free for them to use as they see fit, provided they follow the license. Gravewit 18:47, 21 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Wanna synchronize with Chrono to possibly merge them under our umbrella if our umbrella will be including German? --Karlos 19:31, 21 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I think the idea of merging the guildwiki.de version into an official version is very good. I have contacted Gravewit by email (again...) to talk about this. --Chronos 00:23, 22 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Anything new from Chronos oder Gravewit? I'm looking forward to see this two sites merging :)

A request to native english speakers
The first part of this edit Seems to me as bluntly wrong. I will not revert it myself, but someone who can confirm this, please do. Foo 13:41, 19 June 2006 (CDT)


 * That doesn't actually point to a specific edit, but rather to a list of contributions. Unless you expect us to read minds and/or read through them all, you may want to be more specific. :) -- [[Image:Bishop_icon2.png]] Bishop [ rap|con ] 14:10, 19 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Err Emm. fixed that. check again. Foo 15:07, 19 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Tweaked it. Tenses were fine, but some of the prepositions and such were rather wierd (wars are between entities, for example, not among them). &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 15:20, 19 June 2006 (CDT) )

Meta-type
You've got some typing errors here. My browser tries to download 1 in every 5 pages. [approx] &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 211.26.122.20 (talk &bull; contribs) 21:08, 19 June 2006 (CDT).


 * What do you mean by "meta-type"? What browser/os are you using? --Theeth (talk)   21:13, 19 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I might be using the wrong term there. Windows XP / Firefox v1.5
 * It's been happening ever since I found out about the site, doesn't happen on any other sites [and wikis] I visit. The browser tries to download every few pages loaded. This would indicate the web server [or the wiki] is indicating the file is a type which should be downloaded.


 * The term I was looking for is MIME type. The type it's reporting [when it tries to get downloaded] is "application/octet-stream".211.26.48.108 04:24, 20 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I usually don't have this issue using WinXP + FF 1.5.0.4. On very rare occasions, I get this problem but it's always when server is having major connection issues. - 04:26, 20 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I get this on my desktop PC, but my laptop is fine. --Jamie [[Image:Jamie.jpg|24px|Here me ROOOARRR!!! (Talk Page)]] 04:27, 20 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I used to get it very often a while, but now I'm surprised if I get it once a day. Using Ubuntu 6.06/Firefox 1.5.0.4 &mdash; Galil  16:55, 20 June 2006 (CDT)


 * perhaps this is a firefox issue? i see nothing with XPSP2 + Mozilla 1.7.12 --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 17:17, 20 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Haven't had strange clientside issues of any type. Firefox 1.5.0.4 & XPSP2. --Tinarto [[Image:Tinarto-gold-Monk-icon-small.png]] 20:29, 20 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I had this for the first time ever just few seconds ago. I'm not sure if this was me, because I might have pushed a random button or two and caused it. (Using Opera, WinXP SP1) --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 09:08, 22 June 2006 (CDT)


 * No MIME issues on either Debian with Firefox 1.5-1.5.0.2 or on WinXP (SP2) with Firefox 1.5-1.5.0.4. No issues with Lynx, either (*ducks*). &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 10:33, 23 June 2006 (CDT) )

Skills on monsters/NPCs
(note: Dsicussion moved here from User talk:Specter)

It's nice that you are working on the skill icons for the NPC pages. However, don't mark elite skills as elites unless the monster/NPC is a boss. It was decided long time ago that only the elites of boss monsters are marked, because t is the only place where it is relevant. -- 15:33, 23 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Actually, I'm not sure anymore. I saw that Bishop had added the elite note on one NPC, so you better ask PanSola or something before adding or removing them from any article. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 15:36, 23 June 2006 (CDT)
 * I noticed that the henchman have their elites marked as such, so I followed suite. &mdash; Specter 5:32, 23 June 2006 (EST)
 * That's the problem. So many pages use different styles and it's not easy to remember what is used where. I'm sorry to disturb with this, but asking someone who knows would be the best opton. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 15:40, 23 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Some of the henchmen (Luxons including: Aurora, Seaguard Gita, Argo, etc) are bosses in a particular mission, and you can capture Elites from them there.- Greven 15:46, 23 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Where was that decision? - 15:51, 23 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Everyone has been saying this whenever someone adds the note of a skill being elite to a monster article. I don't know where this decision was made and when, and I'm not sure if it also includes NPCs, but I thought it would. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 16:00, 23 June 2006 (CDT)
 * I've also seen this given as a reason for removing an 'elite' tag next to elite skills for monster articles, although I've never removed them myself. I have no idea where or if this has been discussed, or if it's just something that became a defacto standard that's just part of tradition in how it was done before. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:05, 23 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Let's find the prior decision before saying there is a prior decision, so in case there isn't (and someone was simply saying it mistakenly or to make the point stronger) we don't propagate the error. Or start a new discussion on it.  And don't confuse the discussion on whether Location articles should have a "Skill Capture" section with that issue. - 16:09, 23 June 2006 (CDT)


 * It will be easier jsut to discuss this again. i think this is not the best place, but I'm going to bed soon and want to say my opinnion. I think we should (ofcourse) mark the elite skills of bosses. I think we shouldn't mark them on normal monsters. (Would be a massive job to change) I am not so sure if we should or should not have them on NPCs. It doesn't harm, but it doesn't help either. (The skill icon next to the name shows the yellow border) I vote for not having the text unless there is a good reason for it. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 16:13, 23 June 2006 (CDT)


 * See: Style and formatting/Bestiary. - Greven 16:44, 23 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Also, apparently this was added by Rainith on [|01:11, 1 March 2006]. - Greven 16:51, 23 June 2006 (CDT)
 * That didn't say only Bosses should have elite skills marked. But I agree with Gem, if we are using skill icons, the entire marking issue is superfluous.  The gold border will handle them all. - 16:53, 23 June 2006 (CDT)
 * So I suppose all the henchmen articles have to be fixed? &mdash; Specter 14:50, 23 June 2006 (EST)


 * Well, I think you should fix normal NPCs, like the Guild Lord and such, but leave the henchmen alone. If some of the henchmen do show up in missions so that you can capture their elites, we should mark the elite of all of them. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 16:59, 23 June 2006 (CDT)
 * NPC-henchies use different skill sets when being NPC vs when being Henchies right? If so, their skill listings should reflect as such.- 17:00, 23 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Okay. How about a general rule: Mark elites when they are capturable with SoC, otherwise don't mark them. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 17:03, 23 June 2006 (CDT)
 * How about don't mark them period? The marking was from an era before we use skill icons. - 19:01, 23 June 2006 (CDT)

Note: today, the text "Monster Skills are to be tagged with (Monster Skill) and Elite skills are to be tagged with (Elite), but only on Boss monsters, where it is relevant (SoC confirmation should be done as well, see below)." was added to this article in the Skill Icons section. I moved the relevant discussion above to here so that we could ensure everyone is in agreement on this. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 21:30, 23 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Thanks for moving this here as I missed the entire conversation. Since I started on this wiki (little less than a year ago) the defacto standard has been to mark elites on bosses.  To me there is no point in marking elites for creatures that you cannot capture them from.  I added the remark: Bosses with elite skills should have those marked with (Elite) after the elite skill. to the S&F guide in March as someone suggested that it be added there.  I didn't (and still don't) think that remark is ambigous at all, bosses get the tag, period, not normal monsters.  Nowhere in the remark does it state that normal monsters should have it.
 * All that being said, as others have stated, with the icons being added, there really is no reason to have the tag at all, so I say we remove it altogether. The monster skill tag is somewhat more complicated as some monster skills use the generic monster skill icon, while others have their own icon.  As there is room for confusion there, I say that we keep the monster skills tag in the articles.  --Rainith 21:41, 23 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Zzzzz. Wha? --Karlos 22:02, 23 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Agree with Rainith - 22:22, 23 June 2006 (CDT)


 * If we are still supporting text-only browsers, then I say keep the (Elite) tag. - Greven 22:49, 23 June 2006 (CDT)


 * And some people with slower connections disable images from their browsers. I vote for keeping the elite tag for anything that you can capture it from. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 04:12, 24 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Good points. I agree. - 04:16, 24 June 2006 (CDT)

Build
Where do I put in a custom build? I've been prefecting it for about 2 weeks, its almost done. I call it the Mind Fryer
 * You can eather put it under Me/Any Mind Fryer, (or other proffesion, I'm guessing it's a mesmer), or register and create a user page. Foo 12:46, 24 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Style and formatting/Builds has the advice for your build page. ~ Nilles (chat) 12:58, 24 June 2006 (CDT)

Skill Data

 * use the official skill icons when they are available (in the fansite kit)
 * Possibly add a "flavor" aspect to skill descriptions as per the ideas of the GuildWars community. As in, adding short, possible historical, notes about certain skills and what they do in a flavorful sense. Almost flavor text for skills, much like Magic: the Gathering has on a lot of it's card.
 * I would be willing to get the ball rolling. --Blacklock
 * Something like what's currently done with Jamei's Gaze or do you have something totally different in mind? - 17:19, 12 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Well, say I was going to do Jamie's Gaze. It would read as, "Monks learn to focus their healing energy so devoutly that even a mere glance can brighten an ally on the battlefield, helping them recover from wounds." It's not vital to the game, but it could add a nice dose of flavor for the RPers out there. --Blacklock
 * I have a small doubt if we should add this kind of stuff to a wiki, especially if it only depends on one mans thoughts. However, as a major RPer I ahve to say... Go for it! --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 02:16, 13 June 2006 (CDT)
 * I understand, which is why I haven't gone around doing it yet for fear of massive retalliation... or something. And, also, I was hoping to get the support of RPers who edit the wiki, too. There is over 300 skills. That's a lot of little tidbits of history and flavor.
 * If it's info taken from the game, then I have no issues. Otherwise I think some kind of note should be added to make clear that it's personal creativity of the GuildWiki contributors as opposed to in-game lore. - 04:37, 13 June 2006 (CDT)
 * It wouldn't be part of the original skill discription or anything, just a little piece of lore on the bottom. ArenaNet can only give us so much information, and the community makes the rest. Hence RPG.
 * And even though it won't be part of the skill description or anything, I believe it still needs to be clearly marked as a player-created text and clearly marked as not being in-game lore. I'm not against its existence.- 05:31, 13 June 2006 (CDT)
 * I am strongly opposed to violating GW:CONTENT for no clear benefit. Please reconsider your idea. You may find that other fansites such as guildwarsguru will be more receptive to it. –70.20&#x260e; 04:40, 13 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Um, this has NOTHING to do with Content over presentation. - 04:50, 13 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Obviously, I have no problem with anything from the game being documented on the wiki. And if you want do document and add flavor with previous uses of the skill, add trivia notes about the possible pop-culture origins of a title and/or ways it was referred ingame or by NPC's, go right ahead. But I strongly oppose making up canon (history, background) on our own. In fact, I think it would be directly hurtful to the vision of the actual writers doing the background story if the lines were to start blurring on the wiki between what is made by them and made by us. In summary: Don't do this! GuildWiki is not the place for such a thing. A fanfic site for RP'ers might be a cool idea and all, but it would need to be a clearly defined part of how that site operated, not hiding among documentation. -- [[Image:Bishop_icon2.png]] Bishop [ rap|con ] 05:20, 13 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I don't need to write my explanations, Bishop does it for me. I agree completely with Bishop.  Were we to consider adding non-canon storylines or anything of the sort to this wiki, I would want it clearly separated on different pages -- the skill pages shouldn't have flowery prose added by use (only factual or strategic items).  (I realize that probably kills the idea completely, but some people do have fan-fic on their user pages, which I think is great and fine.) --JoDiamonds 09:54, 13 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Fair enough, I just thought I would suggest it as part RPer. Thanks for the input, though. --Blacklock 13:27, 13 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I think it's a bad idea. I won't elaborate too much, but it is not our aim to invent. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 12:43, 13 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Another main problem: Highly subjective content. User A thinks the skill is awesome so he writes something lik eyou wrote about Jamei's Gaze above. User B however, thinks the skill stinks, so he removes that prose and puts something about how this skill is obnoxious. Do we consider that vandalism? It's open mic and anyone can say what they like abuot that skill. That's what talk pages are for. --Karlos 17:23, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

Copyright message
I think we are supposed to have the following text from Should we put it at the bottom of the site, or on individual image pages? - 18:56, 25 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Should involve Gravewit in this. He's the only one hwo can edit that part of the page anyways. --Karlos 23:12, 25 June 2006 (CDT)


 * MediaWiki:Copyright &mdash; Skuld  03:34, 26 June 2006 (CDT)
 * The fansite expectations just say to "display the appropriate copyright information." Copyrights already exists, but isn't well linked (I think just in the text between the edit bot and edit summar box?).  Perhaps the footer link should go there.  That keeps the footer text compact.  --68.142.14.40 04:38, 26 June 2006 (CDT)

Capitalization
I searched but could not find anything on this subject. How do we capitalize? Eg, profession types? So far I've capitalized it Elementalist only if it's the first word of a sentence, elementalist if it isn't, but it also seems I'm the only one. &mdash; Galil  19:12, 25 June 2006 (CDT)
 * First rule of thumb: use proper Engligh. Second rule of thumb: use proper nouns as desginated by the game (if something is capitalized in the game, we capitalize it too).  Elementalist is desginated as a proper noun in the game, at least for the great majority of the time I believe. For the actual policy, refer to GW:case. - 19:40, 25 June 2006 (CDT)
 * In other word, as I have always done. Thanks. ^^ &mdash; Galil  19:47, 25 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Um, the other way around. Proper nouns should always be capitalized. - 21:17, 25 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Hmm, think I misunderstood your first response. Then I better change my habit of not capitalizing profession names.. Thanks again. :p &mdash; Galil  21:23, 25 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Do not capitalize profession names, they are not capitalized in-game when they come in the middle of a sentence, and they would not be capitalized in regular English caps rules. --Karlos 23:10, 25 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Then I'm reverting to not capitalizing profession names in the middle of sentences. Thanks for clearing that up. &mdash; Galil  22:33, 1 July 2006 (CDT)

Forgotten move tags
There are several entries in Category:Articles to be moved where the move tag was applied several weeks, if not months ago. If no discussion takes place on a move tag, should we: The other half of this would be how long to leave the tags until an action is taken on these forgotten tags? Two weeks? A month? Do move tags have expirations, or do they remain until someone cares enough to start pushing the change? --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 20:07, 26 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Leave the move tags until discussion takes place?
 * Remove the Move tag - assume that if no discussion took place, then the current name is adequate?
 * Move the article - assume that if no discussion took place, then there's no objection to the proposed new name?
 * I'm inclined towards "assume no objections, go ahead". - 23:19, 26 June 2006 (CDT)

Monster data revised
I passed trough each and every one of the monsters in Guildwiki and made sure the 4 main headings were present, skills had icons and listed alphabetically, elite skills unmarked and monster skills marked. Maybe someone may check it again to confirm since I might have forgotten a few things. --Arkhyn, 18:40, 29 June 2006

Wrong place but it's a bug and I don't know where to put it
Kay. I realized that some articles: Drop rate Talk:Main Page are not showing for me - they appear blank. FF's View Source command is also blank...not sure if this is important or a known bug or w.e 69.253.41.139 06:04, 2 July 2006 (CDT)