User talk:Tupu/Build Archive/Build:Team - Shadow Flame

Rate-a-build
''Please test and vote on. Testing is encouraged but not required.''

Favored: Unfavored:
 * 1) --Works.Cheese Slaya 21:08, 15 February 2007 (CST)
 * 2) --Tested today. It works.bob fregman
 * 3) --Lots of people setting up this group. --NYC Elite 19:57, 26 February 2007 (CST)
 * 4) --Voting favored on this build without testing simply to cancel Readem's untested unfavored vote. Please actually test the builds before voting, people.  :)  --Aubee91 12:12, 28 February 2007 (CST)
 * I dont know if I agree with this either but I suppose that two disagrees on opposite sides balance themselves out too...Ekrin 16:08, 28 February 2007 (CST)
 * Hey, my idea of using my vote to cancel out insipid votes (usually unfavored votes) is catching on. Defiant Elements  (talk ~ contribs)
 * Jep, works... Taimi75 20.00 13.3.2007
 * 1) -- Hoax 07:15, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
 * 2) works.... &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.131.56.167 (talk • contribs) 05:30, 21 March 2007 (CDT).
 * 3) Nice, very nice InfestedHydralisk  [[image:Shadow_Prison.jpg|19px]] 11:51, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
 * 4) Works Dwaley 20:28, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
 * 5) Awesome-sauce. Batty Lad
 * 1) This is not wrth the effort, ppl use SF eles w/ good monks. That is enough to keep them safe. ~Readem
 * And EVERYONE knows that you should only ever have one way of doing things because new and creative things a bad for the enviroment... Why do people not like new ways of doing something? Hell this might be MORE effective than the DoA Balanced build. He/she also triggers my personal peeve by posting this without testing even if it is not required "not wrth the effort".... Ekrin 19:21, 27 February 2007 (CST)
 * Also, everyone shouldn't be forced to make an obsidian tank for example just to farm DoA when there are other ways to do it just as effectively if not more effectively. --NYC Elite 16:37, 28 February 2007 (CST)
 * I completely disagree with that statement. The Obsid Tank builds actually give Dervs and Wars a position In DoA. There are very few builds wanted for both those proffs regarding DoA otherwise. Besides, how many elementalists have Shadow Form to become "Shadow Flames" anyway? Not many at all, while everyone pretty much has SF. ~Readem
 * 1) Tested the build: It fails miserably in the Foundry of failed creation, mainly because you cant use your PBaoE skills on despair titans because of their chill blains skill.
 * 2) Used this in Foundry, despair titans kill ya. Flare deals incedibly low damage and takes forever to kill 1 despair. The general and all them will die because you have no bond/SB to put on them. In citadel, this build would also fail miserably becuase of 0 priest protection. In veil, the stygains will wipe you quick(unless, once again, you wanna waste 10 mins flaring 1 of them to kill it). In city, it works. In gloom, the monsters would flood the cave and kill everyone while SF is recharging. - Skakid9090 21:46, 10 March 2007 (CST)
 * 3) Although the actual idea of using Shadow Form like that would be good with some development, the build just simply dosen't work well. The choice of fire skills is quite bad in terms of damage dealing (I mean, flare??? that's the worst fire ele skill there is) and not to mention with so little energy storage they don't have that much energy for spamming the skills, with Recall being maintained, getting just 1 energy a second (with the 3 pips of energy regen) simply isn't enough to fuel the spamming. Although Shadow Form only lasts around 15 secs, which might be short enough to spam the skills without losing too much energy, you would have barely energy left for the second spamming, let alone the third. The gap in between won't give you enough energy. Plus while Shadow Form is down you'de be too vulnerable (sure, you can move far back with Recall, but if the enemies reach you, 1 LoD monk and 1 Shelter rit isn't gonna be enough to keep you alive). Dervish Mazta
 * I havent tested this myself, but i think it obvious you havent either. The monk stays back out of aggro and flare is only to kill those with chilblains. Not enough energy? The monk has song of power and aria of zeal for goodness sakes!--&mdash; Hyprodimus Prime  [[Image:hyprodimusprimewikisig.png||talk]]  16:49, 17 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Actually, I did test it. And it didn't work well. And before you ask, yes I did use skilled eles. Plus, song of power and aria of zeal were not enough to keep the eles' energy high enough. Don't know if that's the way other people who have posted here found, but that's what I found and I'm sticking to it. Plus, what I said earlier I still think is right, there is barely enough healing to keep the party alive. Of course, the idea itself is still good, so with a bit (or mabye a lot) more modification and testing it could be a lot better. Dervish Mazta
 * 1) poo &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 58.108.21.118 (talk • contribs) 03:10, 20 March 2007 (CDT).
 * 2) Earth Magic, glyph of elemental power, and 2 instead of six, and no rit (pointless if monk si good and eles are fast), and that lightbringer 100 damage thingy on eles, 3 peeps, more loot.72.248.126.101 09:03, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
 * 3) random trash &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.139.17.252 (talk • contribs) 12:54, 20 March 2007 (CDT).
 * Did you even actually test it before before posting that? SilentFry 4:44 PM March 20 2007 (EST)
 * He/She didnt even bither to sign it so I doubt it. Probably didnt even read the usage. Unless he was refering to his vote itself... Ekrin 18:13, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Did ANYONE who voted favored test this? No. But, you take nothing up with them because you like the "build's creative idea". - Skakid9090 15:34, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Actually at least 7 of the 10 favored voters appear to have tested it. - Aubee91 10:58, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
 * I do DoA a LOT and I gave a throuough(sp?) explanation on why it indeed does not work. - Skakid9090 21:07, 31 March 2007 (CDT)

Help
This build sits here ready to go with no testers. We are still 2 elementalists shy of completeing tests. If anyone would like to help please contact me in game as Life Blast.

Designer's Test Notes
The build has been tested at the entry points of Veil and City with one elementalist. He was capable of bringing most mobs down to 1/4 to 1/2 of their life before having to return. Even with only one elementalist attacking the one or two monks per mob could not heal every target fast enough. The hope is that with six elementalist most mobs will be wiped out in one attack "round."
 * We are considering using an assassin/mesmer with Arcane Echo, and Arcane Mimicry To keep Shadow Form up Indefinately and act as a tank to hold the agro of most mobs(depending on their make up) while the elementalists recharge. Channeling would keep his energy high. The biggest issue is timing it so that he is using Arcane Mimicry while the elementalists are around him.
 * Considering Lava arrows in Stygian Veil to deal with hungers. Stygian Veil will be the first place we test the build.

Energy Management
Those Eles are going to have some serious energy management problems with such a low level of Energy Storage. Entropy 15:56, 1 February 2007 (CST)
 * It's been tested. They don't. Song of power recharges them after each attack round.
 * How's that work, Song of Power ends as soon as you use a skill. You barely have enough energy to execute the combo in the first place...enchant removal of Fire Attunement or any kind of E-denial and it's game over. After you Recall back, you'll do Song of Power and...what? Wait around for energy to recharge? Entropy 02:33, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * Actually yes you do wait for energy recharge. Also energy denial and enchantment removal are never a problem becuase of Shadow Form. (Exceptions are City of Torc,qua and the skill chillblains which flar is used to work around discussed bellow.)
 * Erm...there are other skills that remove Shadow Form. And Chilblains is not used exclusively in Torc'qua. Don't overestimate Shadow Form...Also, if the foe(s) didn't die, your Eles can't do anything while waiting for recharge, effectively useless. That's not good. Flare Spam? Meh, you could do better. Entropy 02:42, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * The only skill that can strip enchantments through Shadow Form from a distance is Signet of Disenchantment which none of the Domain of Anguish enemies have. All other skills require the caster to be adjacent to remove the enchantment. Flare is used because it is the most power for the cheapest cost, and also the most damage/second output on a single target avialable of any one skill in the game except for Ice Spear.
 * You're only using in DoA? Well nevermind anything I said then, and you might want to add that info to the Build page. >< Entropy 03:01, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * Sorry lol

Frankly I like this build. Have not been able to test it or anything but from what I can tell it should work. A refreshing change to the DoA Balanced build. Sure it works but if you lose one person you could lose the mission and most people cant get a party full of people that they know. For this one you just have to get the para and the rit cause you shouldnt have to much of a problem if you lose an ele (granted you should try to not have people that leave but in places like foundry that just take so long your bound to get em. Some people go in without 5 or more hours to spare). Also I would like to see the compared speed of this vs the balanced build. The only real problem that I can forsee is getting the rit in a PuG (also granted that you have little chance of winning in a PuG but it is possible). If you still need an ele when I get mine there (1-2 more weekends) then I would be glad to try to help test Ekrin 21:28, 19 February 2007 (CST)

Ritualist Question
Why does the rit carry Recall? --Aubee91 12:12, 28 February 2007 (CST)
 * Simply for safety. The mobs tend to agro on the Spirit and then the rit as he tries to run and  then back to group.-- Life Blast

Monk Question
what is the monk doing with heal area and healing ring in an 8 man group with 6 PBAoE elementalists in it? what possible benifit is flare going to provide a porting PBAoE ele with no energy management and a very small energy bar? why do the PVAoE eles have deadly paradox when shadow form only lasts 17 seconds, skills are disabled for the first 10 of those seconds, and they have no attack skills or auto attack damage to speak of? tetracycloide 16:10, 1 February 2007 (CST)
 * Ok I'll answer your questions as you posted them.
 * 1. When Shadow form ends and the ele's recall back to the monk he has to use heal area and healing ring to heal them.
 * 2. Flare is for killing enemies with chillblains and other PBAoE enemies that can penetrate Shadow form. Shelter can help in a pinch but should not be primarily relied on to stop a PBAoE enemy that is spamming PBAoE spells. Enemies like that must be elimenated one at a time from a distance and Flare is the best skill for spiking a single target like that.
 * 3. Deadly Paradox doesn't work like that. It only disables attack skills not spells. And it allows the ele's to have only 10 seconds of down time(with 20% enchant mod) between each battle. This is very useful when trying to finish off bosses as they will be regaining health while the team is recharging.

-I don't know if you noticed but, flare does about 13 dmg to a mob in the domain of anguish, even with 16 fire magic, how exactly are you going to "spike" targets like despair titans, within 17 seconds of your shadow form window. XD Cracker 12:24, 10 March 2007 (CST)

It says Healing Ring only does: Heal adjacent creatures for 30...150 Health.

Believe me humans count as creatures. "A creature, in terms of game mechanisms, could be any object with a non-depleted Health bar, otherwise it would have been called a corpse." Ekrin 21:49, 19 March 2007 (CDT)

Skill Variant - Shadow of Haste

 * Maybe that would be better, DParadox cancels it, and you don't have to cast it on the casters, no energy degen either.--Llednar 15:27, 24 February 2007 (CST)

Skill Variant - Lightbringer's Gaze
You'd be crazy not to bring Lightbringer's Gaze, it does more damage to more targets than some of the fire PBaoE spells at less cost. Rukh 22:43, 18 March 2007 (GMT)

Build Variant - Why Shadow FLAME?
If you're using this primarily in DoA, where all the enemies are going to have obnoxiously high armor, why not use Earth instead of Fire? Crystal Wave and Teinai's Crystals will likely do more damage than Inferno and Flame Burst... they have a higher recharge, yes, but with six elementalists I highly doubt that will be a problem. CW/TC do 106 damage each, that's 212 per volley per elementalist, with six elementalists that's nearly 1300 damage, armor-ignoring. Liquid Flame could be replaced with Earthquake; have half the team bring Earthquake and half the team bring Aftershock. Flare and Stone Daggers are pretty much equivalent. The energy cost would be a bit higher, but I think that could be worked around by using +15/-1 sets. Given that you're using Song of Power after each skirmish to regenerate anyway, I think it would probably be worth it. I really like the premise, but I think that you could really boost your damage output by using Earth over Fire, when you consider just how high the enemy armor is in DoA. Worth trying anyway, right? Zaq 21:03, 3 February 2007 (CST)


 * ...He makes a good point. >< Since you're already at PBAoE, I'd do Whirlwind+Aftershock instead, you already have low energy so flirting with Exhaustion isn't a good idea. Entropy 21:09, 3 February 2007 (CST)
 * You make an excellent point. I had no idea Teinai's Crystals and Crystal Wave ignored armor. Their current descriptions are inacurate. However at the same time we are able to use Inferno and Flame Burst 2 and 3 times (respectively) each per round as oposed to only 1 casting each of the other spells. And Flame Burst and Liquid Flames both are capable of hitting in a range of "Nearby" a much greater range than the earth spells which only hit adjacent. Have hope though. This build is far from complete and when finished is likely to involve multiple types of elementalists depending on the location the group is fighting in and possibly a necro. We're looking at many skills and ways to get around different enemies. The Hungers in Stygian Veil right now are our biggest problem. Killing them will be easy enough with deep freeze and flare but we're trying to figure out a way to speed up the process.

This looks very promising...--&mdash; Hyprodimus Prime   21:55, 22 February 2007 (CST)

Hmm... this build looks VERY promising indeed... If my ele ever gets to DoA I'd be happy to try helping out in testing this and possible variants to this... Also, a quick note about Tenai's Crystals and Crystal Wave: they each cost 15 energy, as opposed to the 10 energy cost of liquid flame and inferno... not to mention that, as was stated earlier, they only hit adjacent foes--Timeoffire45 22:37, 4 March 2007 (CST)

Build Variant - Assassin Shadow Flame
Could you have an assassin shadow flame? Same skills but:

1 vigor rune and 2 attunement runes. Do note the earth magic instead of fire magic, will do much more damage. Maybe you could have one shadow flame with mark of rogdort, then he can spam the AoE fire skills, to beat up the enemies through burning, but otherwise Earth Magic will be better. Maybe with Sliver Armor.
 * Im sure you meant same idea not same skills. Im not thinking in depth about it on my own as thinking has already been done here about Earth/Fire and I will withhold my personal opinion and let people look at that section but this COULD be viable even though fire is faster recharging. You would probably only have one of these in a group. Mainly I like sliver armor as it is very very effective when your tanking. Since this one has a few more seconds in SF maybe he/she could tele in (deaths charge?) and get the aggro quick before the rest come in...again this is not indepth thinking as my brain is fried/it has already been posted. GJ for at least getting the idea out there to make us think, even if some of us refuse ^.^ ADDED: Shift the crit to deadly as you use no crit skills but deadly paradox is in deadly artsEkrin 16:14, 26 February 2007 (CST)

Build Variant - Sliver Armour
Building on a few of the ideas conceived above, if one E/A is set up with the following:

Then they could aggro first, letting Sliver Armor do significant damage and also allow the other Eles to use Death's Retreat to shadow step into battle and therefore focus their attacks.Rukh 22:43, 18 March 2007 (GMT)
 * Sliver Armor does a very small amount of damage because there are 6 eles and each individual one has to be targeted for sliver armor to activate, making PBAoE skills better. Ressmonkey 20:17, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
 * I don't think you read what I wrote.
 * If ONE E/A is set up with following:
 * Then that ele could aggro FIRST, letting Sliver Armor do significant damage and ALSO allow the other Eles to use Death's Retreat to shadow step into battle and therefore focus their attacks.
 * Rukh 02:09, 21 March 2007 (GMT)

Hmm, I if were you i'd use the a/e or e/a gloom farmer builds. SilentFry 5:07 PM March, 27, 2007

Test
Hey, please actually test this build. It can only do city so far, without taking 4 times the hours of the normal SF blah blah group. - Skakid9090 20:13, 13 March 2007 (CDT)

Talk
edited the grammar and added some links. looks like a decent build. GJ--The Imperialist 10:44, 18 March 2007 (CDT)