Talk:Secret Lair of the Snowmen

Holiday Moa
Did I read this correctly O.o 12.175.211.39 23:56, 31 August 2007 (CDT)

err.. I belive the moas ARE tameable.. http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Wintersday_Moa --Yakslappin 10:40, 1 September 2007 (CDT)

I have confirmed, these are NOT Tamable. Vlatro

Misc
All snowman seem to have MEga Snowball after the october 25th Update.
 * "Fixed a bug that prevented the snowmen in the Secret Lair of the Snowmen from using their Hard-Mode exclusive skills." yeah -Ezekiel 04:28, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

So, Unrepeatable? You can repeat the other dugeons. ..


 * Lame, indeed. 132.203.161.31 23:00, 31 August 2007 (CDT)


 * It is possible to repeat this dungeon quest, you may have to rezone. Also did anyone get eotn mastery points for this dungeon?

you can repeat dungeon, just don't accept quest reward after completing dungeon,(yes you can get the chest and don't have to rezone!) abandon quest and you can do it again!


 * You don't have to abandon the quest, just accept the quest reward then rezone and take the quest again

you're right! i went back and can re-do! cheers!

You can also just change districts to reactivate the quest --QSECOFR 20:22, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

Tip: Bring fire ele, Vekk, Sousuke, Zhed Shadowhoof, Cynn. Equip them with AoE fire Spells and then aggro the giant mobs of snowmen you meet onto the bridges, there cast Searing Flames, Fire Storm, etc... I did it :) Billyjb 07:10, 1 September 2007 (CDT)

Does Koris have to live?? I got to the end and no chest Mtv22 20:50, 2 September 2007 (CDT)
 * It's a glitch, sucks when it happens :/ COLDshiver 20:11, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I must say that is one annoying glitch. It just happened to me.  I fought through the dungeon, beat the boss, saw the ale kegs, and couldn't pass the quest because Koris was nowhere to be found. Shadowlance 20:41, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

Rodgort's Invocation is great in combination with searing flames. usually it only takes one cast of each spell to take down an entire group. -Firestorm2 21:43, 8 September 2007 (CDT)

Run out of location names anet, or what... Readem (talk *contribs ) 20:54, 2 September 2007 (CDT)

Gold out of the Locked Chests
I've been down here a bunch of times and cracked open most of the chests. Has anyone gotten a non purple item?

It does happen rarely. However, as most chests are purple, the odds of you retaining a lockpick are very high. That make this an easy place to work on your "Lucky title". I have also noticed many of the purple items are max damage, require 9. Intresting skins do drop occasionally. These can of course be remodded and used an hero weapons, or sold for around 200g each. My conclusion: If you need money, these chests are not worth the cost of the lockpick. If you need points towards a title, this is an excellent area to work on it. Vlatro

Strangely, the majority of items I found in here were gold (atleast in normal mode) - and one pick lasted for about 25 consecutive chests. However, that makes up for my standard luck of 99 lockpicks last 100 chests total. :) 125.168.40.149 02:49, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * There is no way that was mathemtically correct. For a lockpick to break you have to open ATLEAST one chest. As such, it is impossible for you to of used ninety-nine lockpicks to open a hundred chests if you had a twenty-five streak. --Call Me Rexy 11:03, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Umm, no, it's entirely possible. You seem to have missed the time difference. Prior to now his perceived standard was 1 retain out of 100 uses. This 25 streak however drags the average up from that (exactly as he says) there's nothing mathematically wrong unless you assume they're simultaneous, even then, supposing a large enough amount of chest openings a 25 streak could have no impact on a ratio of 99:1 break:retain. Ezekiel  [Talk]  01:57, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I read that as he opened 100chests with 99picks and not as an average. If he meant it was an average over an extended amount of time then yes it's entirely possible. However, the way I understood it meant there was no way he could open 100chests with 99picks if he retained it in succession of 25times as that would be 98+25 = 123 chests. --Call Me Rexy 02:47, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Hm, I read it carefully again and I suppose when he mentioned 'standard' it supposedly implied it was an average of some sort.--Call Me Rexy 02:49, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Difficulty
Is this dungeon at all difficult? X Deity X 21:11, 3 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Laughably easy. There are some really annoying obstacles like ice jets and fountains that slow your movement, and the snowmen are weak (but there are LOTS of them). For a competant team though, this is absolutely no challenge at all. Arshay Duskbrow 22:49, 3 September 2007 (CDT)

My new favorite dungeon
A great way to farm dwarf points indeed! A guildie and I took 2 MM's (yes you can make minnions out of them even though they appear to be elementals) and 2 fire eles, and it was even easier this way. Added to that, the abundance of locked chests for such a small area (I've not noticed less gold drops from the chests than any other place btw) and a chest at the end that can give candy canes (so far I've gotten rainbow, wintergreen, and peppermint)...... well this is one I'll be doing MANY times over! Jaxgreystar 12:09, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I run 3 SF Heros, Fire Hench, 2 Monk Hench, Barrage Hench and myself as an assassin. Usually get 1000-2000 points depending on bonuses and around 10-12 minutes a run. Fun indeed. To bad I am at rank 8. :( No more farming dwarf points for now. Gandorf 12:44, 16 September 2007 (CDT)


 * Yeah I hit lvl 8 about a week ago or so (c'mmon hard mode!). I also noticed that the snowmen don't seem to take more damage from fire. I used greater conflagration which, with the minnions should have been even more ownage (it went about the same).  It maybe should also be noted that the spells the snowmen use seem to be armor ignoring also.Jaxgreystar 09:54, 21 September 2007 (CDT)

Incorrect Spelling of Foe
Nice that AreaNet can miss the odd name in a release - in-game Mishcievous Snowman instead of Mischievous Snowman

Trivia
It's name maybe also reference to Serious Sam games. I do belive that at least one secret in Serious Sam 2 was "Secret Snowman has been found!", also in Second Enconcer there was I think hidden level with santa claus, snowmans with mashineguns and comon monsters wearing crismas hats. 83.5.167.152 19:50, 6 September 2007 (CDT)

Fleshy Snowmen
The snowmen are fleshy creatures.
 * Only some. [[Image:Chuiu Me Icon.png|Chuiu]] 20:25, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

the only two exceptions are Jack Frost and the Angry Snowman (dungeon key)

Deldrimor Points
I managed to make 1932 in a single run so I updated the article to show 1900 as the upper-limit of points you can make. So far my actual average is quite a bit lower at ~1300 points though. Including waiting for the chest at the end, re-zoning and trips to the merchant the average run, for myself at least, is 12 minutes. I believe that makes this dungeon average around 6500 Deldrimor points/hour; anyone think this is worth of noting in the actual article? It could at least be used to compare this dungeon to other forms of Deldrimor point farming. -arual 18:49, 18 September 2007 (CDT)

- I just got 2.2k in one run. xD -Zerink, 12:34, 10 October 2007 (CDT)

Fluctuating Reputation?
Anyone else had issues with getting different amounts of Reputation Points from the same boss in the same mission and under the same circumstances, for no apparent reason, or not getting Reputation Point bonuses for bounties that you completed? I have been. As you can see in the screen-shot below I did the Secret Lair of the Snowmen quest/dungeon five times in a row to test out some issues I've been having, and was able to take screen shots of the bugs/glitches/inconsistencies that I encountered. In the first shot you can see that I had the Boss Bonus before I killed Freezie but did not get the bonus, and the Boss Bonus remained on me till the mission was completed, never registering his death. In the 4th shot down you'll see that I only got 150 Reputation Points from killing Freezie instead of the 200 that you normally get. No explanation as to why either. So has anyone else encountered such issues? ~   J.Kougar  04:55, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * If you look, and I might be wrong, I believe it's because you hadn't reached 150 kills before you killed Freezie, thus resulting in the lower amount.--&mdash; xis10al  [[Image:Xis10al_sig_icon.jpg]] 07:12, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I see, then what about the bonuses that I seem to not get so often? ~  [[Image:UserJKougar sig.gif|User:J.Kougar]]  J.Kougar  07:32, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * As commented on the Notes section of the article, it is possible to rack up unregistered kills, unfortunately this can also apply to Frostie. Like yourself I've killed Frostie and not got anything for it, boss bonus up or not. My observation is that the boss bonus isn't generally given if there is only a few seconds between receiving the objective and actually doing the kill, but this can apply to any area and not just Frostie. I now try to deliberately kill most of the critters near Frostie before also ruining his day. StewMUK 12:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * In HM I always get +300 points for killing Freezie, and +300 if I have the boss bounty. On a side note I always kill the stuff around Freezie first because that's usually enough to give another set of 25, and possibly gives you boss bounty right before you kill him.-Malcheior Sveth 18:46, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Hard Mode
Reward for completing it in hard mode is Two Snowman Summoners and then two random items from the list. (Might I also add that this would have to be the best place to farm Deldrimor points? =D) --Bigrat2


 * About 5.5k Dwarven points + funny stuff as end chest drop, yay :D And it is still kinda ghey --[[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (s)talkpage 10:25, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * In my experience it's much faster to resign out after you kill the last group. Got rank 10 in about 3 hours doing this Omnidragon42 10:31, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, That's how i've been doing it. Gotten rank 10 in a little longer than that though. Bigrat2 00:52, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I also find it easier in Hard Mode (don't read this ANET--don't screw with this please) because you have longer time for Boss Bounty, Kill bonuses (kill 10 in next 200 seconds) etc, so you can actually go at a confortable pace, and the snowmean are not that much harder. The MM still works in hard mode, too! Finally, it appears as if all kills are registered.

pious Snowman
are monks just got a monk tome from them in HM 83.84.241.253 11:07, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * are you monk? Because I got assasin tome from them and I am assasin.. edit: or maybe it is just random, got monk tome with the same assasin


 * i am warrior --Fox007 [[Image:Warrior-icon-small.png|Warrior]] 13:53, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * There's a bunch of professions down there. The end boss is a monk (Friend got an elite monk tome) I've also had a lot of monk tomes and paragon tomes down there too. Omnidragon42 23:58, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm removing the comment: "The Snowmen drop Ranger Tomes in Hard Mode." as tomes drop anywhere in hard mode and i have had 3 monk tomes and a dervish tome and all comments above show that not only ranger tomes drop. Iron Forgedude 20:36, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Wow, I must be really unlucky, I've done this run about 20 times in hard mode and never got a single tome. Guess I'll keep trying till I reach level 10 though :D


 * I've done this dungeon several times a day since just a few days after EN was released. Until yesterday, I didn't get any tomes; yesterday, I got three in one run of the dungeon.  Random?  We think so.  Aliana Stoneskye 8:05 EST, 18 November 2007

Points in HM
I got 112903 points in 24 runs (average 4704 points per run). highest was 6920 and lowest 2556 points. If you divide that by (cause of event) thats an average of 2352 points per run in HM. Is that enough data to put it down as an average on the page? Hans Maulwurf 17:34, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

that's weird you're saying that the lowest points you got in the dungeon is higher than the average, methinks you need to do your maths--Chris1645 20:37, 17 October 2007 (UTC)


 * no you have to divide by 2 because it's was the double points event (the average i had was 4704 points). Hans Maulwurf 21:23, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Bwhahaha
Take a lot of AoE skills and Meteor. Then use Air of Superiority and let then die ^^ Haha, prbably THE best skill to take, makes Echo Nuking available without Echo -- -- (s)talkpage 18:12, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Air of superiority doesnt work cause they dont give exp:( I find 2 splinter barrage 1 mm cynn 2 monk henchies and aidan is easy enough (i use warrior with ursan)

Impossible!
Under the Notes section it says "There are ±175 enemies in this dungeon..." This is bad notation (±175 means anywhere from -175 to 175 enimies). It should be changed to read: "There are appx. 175 enemies in this dungeon..." -- StaticDynamite 17:13, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * As far as I know a ± sign means that the number (175 in this case) is either positive or negative ór it means that it is plus minus which is commonly translated to about (could be a bit more or a bit less) but you are right, strictly taken it means -175 or 175 instead of aproximately.

Defiant was Xinrae
Throw it on a tank with a speed boost, Deflect Arrows, Endure Pain and other tanking skills. You disable all of the snowballs in a mob and clear the path for your squishy nukers. 65.30.20.38 05:02, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Bug List
I added a note about chests spawning behind the bugged wall, I've had it happen twice now. -Malcheior Sveth 17:24, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I didn't remove the bug about the inventory and dungeon/boss key, however it isn't necessarily unique to this dungeon. The full inventory bug happens in other dungeons too.  Shadowlance 02:51, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * True, I think it should be removed becuase this bug applies to all dungeon/boss keys. --Arthas 23:00, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

A Dwarf with a Sword ????
If you look at the Dwarven skeleton on the ground you will see a sword with a helmet... A sword on a dwarf... lol Big Bow 19:47, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

HM Can be Solo'ed without H/H
Using an Anti-Caster Terra Tank (E/Mo) with Pacifism can solo this dungeon with ease, but it takes about 40 minutes. Not entirely useful info, but still interesting. It rather funny when everything but the Michevious Snowmen become entirely useless...and then Pacifism takes care of the Michevious, no problem. XD Masterage 19:10, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Problem with Freezie
It might just be me, but I just did two runs of this dungeon in a row in hard mode and I did not receive any points for beating Freezie either time. The first time, I also had the rampage bonus and the boss bonus and got nothing. The little pop up note also did not appear, nor did a text update in the chat window pop up saying that I received points for beating him. Annoying, as I am counting down the times until I no longer have to do this dungeon and getting no points at the part where you normally get the most is quite frustrating.

Also, has anyone noticed that snowmen do not give exp? Has it always been this way, or just since the Wintersday event this year?

Bug Or Nerf?
Appears the 12/20 patch which took the xp out of this dungeon wasn't a bug from the wintersday quest in this dungeon. As of 1/10, all wintersday items, decorations, quests, npcs are removed and the lack of XP in this dungeon continues. Either Anet is moving super slow on this bug or its a nerf.Palewook 19:12, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It's still there. Since it is still there three months later I think we can asume it is a nerf due to the enormous amount of people running this dungeon. As such should it perhaps be noted on the article? Winterbay 06:54, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Cool!
Nice dungeon for Party Animal (assuming you don't want to buy the party items) &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 190.18.43.69 (contribs).
 * Not realy, unless you want to do 400-500 runs RT | Talk  21:06, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Doing this on HM and opening locked chests on the way can simultaneously raise the treasure hunter, wisdom, lucky, unlucky and delver titles. The ending chest then gives 2 summoners (party animal) and another 2 items which affect either party animal, drunkard or sweet tooth. Admittedly the first 4 titles you can get anywhere on HM, but it's still a pretty good spread, especially if you're going for the dwarf title anyway. -Ezekiel 23:34, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Drops
Has anyone else noted that the snowmen don't drop gold pieces? I have farmed quite a lot for hte Deldrimor rank (r4ish to now r9) and never ever got plain gold to drop. Furthermore, should it be mede more clear that it is advisable to kill the 3 wintersdays moa's in hm, simply for the fact that they count towards the number of enemies, making it easier/more likely that you hit the 175 kills bonus before you kill Freeze (with a chance to get the boss bonus). Also they drop Ranger tomes :). Got one drop of them in one of my runs (screenshot proof available if needed). --Wesley 15:24, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

One of the pious snowmen dropped a gold hammer for me just now, so they apparently do drop from time to time 69.112.189.161 02:11, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Euuhm IP, i think Wesley meant gold coins, the ones you can stack to hundred thousand, on 1 character, also know as 100K. And not golden drops, like the hammer you just got. Thats normal, golds drop form everything, exept a very few creatures....Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 17:07, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Ah. Of course, its obvious thats what he was talking about now that you say so. *smacks head* Thanks for the clarification. 69.112.189.161 20:32, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

No problem, better mess up on the talk page, then on the real page......Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 06:23, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I did indeed meant gold coins. Anyone else noticing this? BTW got a second ranger tome drop from a moa :). --Wesley 14:39, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
 * No idea. Haven't been there for a while. I quit farming this place (in normal mode) because Koris Deeprunner used to have rezing issues, wich was so bad that i only got 1 full run every 5-7 runs. But maybe I should try again, once i get that runner to do Destruction's Depths and A Time for Heroes for me, so i can do HM.Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 17:06, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Accurate Reporting?
I needed to top off my deldrimor points to max out the title and ran through this dungeon in hard mode, killing everything - including the Wintersday Moas (If the next Wintersday Fest is cancelled, you can blame me) - and received nowhere near the Deldrimor points being reported here. I ran it twelve more times, leaving nothing alive, taking full advantage of the bonuses for kills, and noting the total points awarded after accepting the reward each time and came up with an average of only 1267 Deldrimor points. This is ALOT less than is being reported here, and includes the reward of 150 points for completion of the dungeon in HM. I started recording the results with 145,173 Deldrimore points and the points rewarded were: The article says 1300-3500 points. While 1300 is definately possible, I didn't get 1500 even once. 3500 would seem impossible without divine intervention. Utter Havoc 12:48, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * 1214 - for a total of 145,173 points.
 * 1416 - for a total of 146,387 points.
 * 1259 - for a total of 147,803 points.
 * 1233 - for a total of 149,062 points.
 * 1320 - for a total of 150,295 points.
 * 1157 - for a total of 151,615 points.
 * 1368 - for a total of 152,772 points.
 * 1137 - for a total of 154,040 points.
 * 1448 - for a total of 155,177 points.
 * 1265 - for a total of 156,625 points.
 * 1171 - for a total of 157,890 points.
 * 1317 - for a total of 160,378 points.


 * Well, sometimes a kill isnt registered if you kill in a great succession (ie. 10 at a time resulted in only 6 for me, once). Try going with abunch of Warriors and whack em up 1 by 1 for real accurate results. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 14:43, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, but does anybody ever kill things 1 at a time in this dungeon? It seems to me that people repeat this dungeon in order to farm Deldrimor points. At least that seems to be the gist of this talk page. They are looking to amass points quickly, and will, I assume, take the same approach I used.  Mass destruction, Nuke 'em 'til they glow type of combat. In which case the nubers here are still very misleading... Still, your right with your point.  I'm going to go kill them one at a time, just warriors and monks. I can't imagine that the difference make up 2000 points though... Utter Havoc 16:04, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Rampage bonus + Boss Hunt = ~600 points. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 16:06, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, but getting both of those bonuses active at the same time is a lottery. In the above points I took full advantage of the Deldrimor Bonuses. I've now redone the dungeon four times killing foes singly. The first time netted an amazing 250 points because I used the same warrior who had just maxed the title;) The remaing three attempts were on another character and pulled in 1466, 1357, and 1192 points on the runs. I don't think it gives points for all kills no matter how you kill them.Utter Havoc 18:44, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Then I think the 4kish max was recorded during the Double weekend by someone with hbigtime luck >.> Why don't you be Bold and change it? --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 18:58, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Right, will do, but first I'm going to do some runs to check the figures in normal mode; otherwise we're reporting more points in NM than in HM, and that doesn't make sense. Utter Havoc 19:08, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I've now repeated the dungeon in NM a total of ten times and noted the results including the completion points. The results were 790, 1042, 887, 781, 912, 757, 946, 702, 977, and 845. An approximated normal range as I see it is between 750 and 1000; the mean average is 863. Although I feel that it is naturally possible to obtain alot more points, this requires not just one of the dwarven bonuses, but rather most of them to fall perfectly (i.e. rampage bonus obtained early and maintained throughout + a time bonus + the boss bonus obtained near the end.) This, however, is not representative of a normal run. I'm changing the article accordingly. On a side note I counted exactly 163 killable creatures in the dungeon, including the 3 Moa's. This is less monsters than indicated in the article.  I will not change this part of the article, however, since those figures may be based on other quests. Utter Havoc 11:38, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I've been faming this dungeon up from Delver r9 and the amount of points seemed kinda low compared to what I've gotten, so I took notes of the last runs I've done (These include the 150 points from the completion): Note: There is around 175 foes in this dungeon in HM (not killing the moas). You'll usually get the bonus from 175th kill just before the last foes of the Freezie group fall, sometime Freezie is the 175th foe (I normally kill Freezie last hoping to get the boss bounty before he falls, if I don't have it already). The fluctuations on the points on othervice similar runs comes mostly from the occurence of the Raider rankups and bonus points/+armor blesses.
 * 146809 to 150095 = 3286 points(rampage at 50, time attack, boss bounty)
 * 150095 to 151721 = 1626
 * 151721 to 153755 = 2034 (2x time attack)
 * 153755 to 156157 = 2402 (rampage at 25)
 * 156157 to 158250 = 2093 (rampage at 75)
 * 158250 to 159728 = 1478 (time attack)
 * 159728 to 161493 = 1765 (time attack)

I used Savannah Heat Elementalist on all of these runs so I'd say I was nuking them. I know it's kinda little amount of data, but I can say it's definately possible to get more points than 1500, more like would say 1500-2500 points/run depending on the bonuses, sometimes little less sometimes more. Also seeing that there's 6-7 bonuses from the amount of kills (tho the 7th is usually kinda useless since there's only few foes after it)+ 2 from the shrines (at ~75 and ~140 kills), I think it's pretty common to get 1 or 2 high point bonuses (time attack, hunt rampage, boss bounty) during the run. It's also easy to maintain the rampage through the whole run or kill the Freezie before the bounty ends (as the bounty last for 10 minutes in HM). If you're lucky you have both up and you'll end up getting 1200 points from just the Freezie. Yujiko Ineluki 19:30, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Screenshots
Is this section necessary? Freezie and the Wintersday Moa already have pics on their relative pages. The map of the dungeon is already added on the page, thus making the one under the screenshots section redundant. As for the pic of the treasure, if we decide to keep that, that should be pushed to the notes area or something.-- franc likes tacos 04:33, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Can this be soloed in HM with the Perma SF sin?
Can it be soloed with this build: http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:A/E_Perma-SF_Daggers_Farmer ? I can't test it out for myself right now, as I'm currently banned. Is it possible in HM? Avatar Zukoh 02:02, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Elementalist snowmen have PBAOE that will get through SF, the monk snowmen have an enchantment that causes knockdown when you hit them (you could stop attacking when you need to reapply shadowform of course). There are a few other nasty things but they shouldn't be able to get you if shadowform never drops. (Hidden Rock, Mega Snowball, Snow Down the Shirt) Ezekiel  <font color=#AAA> [Talk]  04:19, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The Ice Dart Traps get through SF as well. If you are careless and step on one of the ice vents or whatever they're called those will obviously damage you too. Batman9502 15:20, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Smooth criminal
this skill is almost COMPLETELY INEFFECTIVE in this dungeon. I added this on the notes section before but it got reverted because apparantly it had nothing to do with this dungeon. Even though the skill descriptions list the snowball skills as spells, you can't copy them with Smooth Criminal, and an error message comes up saying that the opponent has no spells to steal. At least worth a mention here dont you think? Midgetchinese 04:40, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * With just about all steal skills, they are never able to steal monster skills. So I have to disagree with you on this one. 68.251.37.252 04:49, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Midget, I did add your note to Snowball because I agree that it's worth being mentioned; I just disagreed with your placement of it. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 05:41, 29 June 2008 (UTC)