Talk:Ascalon Army

Please don't nag about the titles and ranks. This is my first attempt. Somebody with better knowledge of the structure of an army may fix that. I've got no clue whether a quartermaster is an officer or just a regular soldier. --Tetris L 22:24, 11 Oct 2005 (EST)

Oh, and how about a category Ascalon Army? --Tetris L 22:24, 11 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * I think we should have a category for groups. Ascalon Army, Stone Summit (the article, not the category), etc...  --Rainith 01:48, 12 Oct 2005 (EST)

Oh I will nag about the ranks! It's my constitutional right!! :) I'll explain somethings below, but you did a VERY good job of compiling this list. As we can all see the reason this rag-tag army lost to the Charr is self-evident. :) Now my notes: I'll let you examine this and employ it into the article as you see fit. I don't see the way you laid it out as "misleading" or "wrong." --Karlos 10:58, 12 Oct 2005 (EST)
 * About forming a category: Sure, but if we form it, it should be Just Category:Ascalon Army and then everyone goes inside, independent of rank or sub-class. That's my opinion. And it should be a sub-category of Humans.
 * Tetris, you need a lesson in English nobility! :) Duke is not an army rank. Duke is a royal family rank. There is no guarantee that Duke Barradin is actually a commander in the Ascalon Army. (He is obviously a commander in the Vanguard.)
 * The "Warmasters" are apparently Knights. This guess I make based on Tydus who was "Sir Tydus" pre-searing (then again, Grast was still Warmaster before the searing).
 * A squire is the servant and trainee for becoming a knight. He's pretty low on the food chain.
 * In general, the other masters as not on the same "scale" as the knights.
 * Tydus is in charge of the Army by order of the king. Before the searing he was head of the academy and after the searing he is in charge of defending Ascalon (i.e. the army as a whole).
 * You seem to have a good grasp of how those ranks would stack in a real army:
 * coporal->Sergeant->Lieutenant->Captain
 * The catch is where to place the Squire and the Warmasters. I agree with the Warmasters at the top but I think the squire should be below Lieutenant.
 * Also, the tech corps should not be on par with the Warmasters. i.e. Quartermaster and Siege Masters are more like "Master Sergeants" than warmasters. i.e. they'd be below Lieutenant.
 * It's better to call "Soldiers" as "Infantry." Since categorizing Ascalon Soldiers under soldiers looks weird.
 * Finally, Flaming Scepter mages are not part of the Ascalon Army, they are a mage order that runs the academies. This is in contrast with the Engineer and the Academy monk who are part of the army.


 * Actually what I meant was we need a category for the articles Ascalon Army, Stone Summit, White Mantle, Shining Blade, etc... Currently most are in Category:NPCs, which drives me nuts as these are groups not NPCs. --Rainith 11:23, 12 Oct 2005 (EST)
 * But NPC is not a species classification. It's just a pool of all NPCs. i.e. look at Makar Thoughtslayer. He is an NPC and a Stone Summit. The Stone Summit lands him in the base pool of Bestiary while the NPC lands him in a different pool. The Ascalon guards would be NPCs and Humans, instead of Humans we'd make them into Ascalon Army and then Ascalon army would lead to humans and to bestiary. --Karlos 12:32, 12 Oct 2005 (EST)

Ok, I guess I didn't explain that Royal Family has no standing in the army. :) i.e. Duke and Prince and Lord are not army ranks. I do not know if Duke Gaban or Duke Barradin has any rank in the army (though they seem to be knights), but until we know, let's keep them out of it. We know Duke Barradin is a co-leader of the vanguard. --Karlos 15:52, 12 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * To begin with, I was really the wrong person to write this article. I've never served in an army. Generally all German men have to serve in the army for 1 year. But you can do civil service instead, which I did. So I've got little clue about the structure of an army. Anyway ... here we go:
 * It is clear to me that the noble ranks (King, Prince, Duke, ...) are not military ranks. But nevertheless they are also military leaders at the same time. We just don't know their military ranks. I'd keep 'em listed at the very top, without any military rank.
 * I would ask you to put the Prince and the Dukes back in. We know for sure that Rurik and Barradin are head leaders of the Vanguard, which is a part of the army, so they are clearly leaders of the army. All the other Dukes are probably military leaders too, with at least the rank of a knight.
 * Like you, I assume that Warmaster is the equivalent of a medieval knight. Knights were typically members of noble families too, but they also were military leaders.
 * I agree Siege Masters and Quarter Masters are probebly not at all equal to warmasters. At best they are low-ranked officers. But I filed them under regular troops now.
 * I am unsure about "Master" Armin Saberlin. Pre-Searing he is an assistant of Sir Tydus. Post searing he leads troops in the Fort Ranik mission and briefs you on several quest. In Beacon's Perch he is labeled "Master", but I still think he is not a warmaster, because he wears the red armor of a regular soldier or a low-ranked officer, not the plat armor of a Warmaster. He is probably a low ranked officer.
 * I know a squire is something like a knight apprentice. Probably also of noble origin. They can't be all that low in command, as Squire Zachery seems to be in charge at The Great Northern Wall (Location). At least he stands on a pedestral. I'd put them as sub-class of Warmaster. A soon-to-be-Warmaster, if you will.
 * The modern army ranks (Corporal, Sergeant, ...) were easy. I looked them up: :)
 * Infantry instead of soldier is fine by me. But the guards are infantry too. Should I list them as a sub-class of infantry? The guards seem to belong mostly to the Guard, whereas the units that I listed under "infantry" seem to belong mostly to the Vanguard.
 * I know the Flaming Scepter Mages are separate from the army. The army itself seems to have no spellcasting class soldiers. But in the Nolani mission and the Surmia mission they fight along with the army. And in the Surmia mission, after you free Erol from his prison, he calls the Flaming Scepter Mages his unit. Now, as far as I remember, Erol doesn't wear the red armor of the army. But the fact that he calls the Mages a "unit" makes me think that they are a military unit too. Even if they are not directly part of the army they are at least affiliated with the army. That's why I listed them under "support units". I'll make clearer that they are only affiliated.
 * I'll do some minor edits now. --Tetris L 18:12, 12 Oct 2005 (EST)

Women in the Army
I think modern day feminists would find the Ascalon Army unacceptable! :) Where are the women leaders in the army?! Why are women only seen in the lower ranks? And why is it that they are seen as soldiers but never beyond that rank? And how come the only female servicemen seen around are the poor academy monks left to fend for themselves at remote forsaken places?! I smell a lawsuit coming! :) --Karlos 07:46, 13 Oct 2005 (EST)
 * What do you mean with "the only female servicemen seen around are the poor academy monks"? What about all the women warriors in red armor? You can't see their faces, but they quite clearly have breasts. ( . Y . ) And I don't think they are lads who grew manboobs. :) --Tetris L 08:01, 13 Oct 2005 (EST)
 * Interesting ASCII art.. Took me a while to grasp that one out... Oh the wonders of the human mind! :) --Karlos 09:16, 13 Oct 2005 (EST)
 * Ha! Captain West is a woman. A female officer! For great justice ... err ... political correctness! --Tetris L 07:43, 18 October 2005 (EST)
 * Those Vanguards are pansy liberals!! :) --Karlos 11:58, 18 October 2005 (EST)

Some clarifications of mixing a nobility and and army for you folks. While the nobility ranks are technicaly not part of the military, the nobles are military leaders and hold equivalencies of rank. Squire = lieutenant Baron = Captain. To further complicate matters these are only base entitlement's any noble may be appointed a higher postion by his own legie lord if he decides its nessicay to carry out his duties. Further fudging it is the fact that a Squire can be either a Knights apprentice OR the lowest rank of nobility if hes a part of a nobles court.

A Warmaster is most likely the direct military subordinate to a noble who isnt directly part of the military. For instance while duke Barridin was obviously of a martial bent other nobles may not be, their Warmasters are then responceable for the oversight of a nobles military forces, their traning, disposition and even command of them during a conflict. Barridins poor warmaster was likely bored silly most of the time.

Id conjecture that saberlin is a highranking NCO. Also oddly enough the Marshalls seem to break the conventions as a marshall is typicly a rather ssenior post but the ascalon marshalls seem to simply be the best scouts they have.--TypoNinja 03:11, 30 November 2006 (CST)