Talk:Palm Strike

Does this have to follow a lead attack? --JoDiamonds 01:47, 25 March 2006 (CST)
 * Nope. That's what makes it elite. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 22:51, 30 April 2006 (CDT) )

How do you get a 19 dagger mastery? The most I can figure out would be 18 (sup + head + shrine + weapon(20%) ) --Phelios
 * Looking at the history, I think Stabbot just invented it. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 04:40, 26 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Theoretically, there could be a +1 Critical Strikes shield out there somewhere. Palm Touch would then be possible at 17, due to the fact it is a touch "Skill" rather than a Daggers Attack (unlike many of the other Critical Strikes skills). - Greven 08:01, 26 May 2006 (CDT)

Even if, theoretically, someone found a shield with +1 DM, you could not use it with daggers, and it is impossible to have any weapons but dagger with a +1 DM

Golden Eggs Give + 1 attibute for five minutes Big Bow 00:26, 9 May 2007 (CDT)

12+1+3 (headgear + sup rune) + blessing from lunar fortune + golden egg + weapon 1 = 19 dagger mastery, but palm strike is critical stikes skill. --WertyG 05:04, 17 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Except lunar fortunes and golden eggs didn't exist in May 2006. --Fyren 05:07, 17 May 2007 (CDT)


 * They exist now, that's what matters. The Hobo 23:55, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Not when you're replying to messages about maximum attribute levels from a year ago. --Fyren 13:22, 25 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Oh? The Hobo 00:34, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

Whoaa, 5 energy now, niiice. :D Entheos Geon  ‎ 06:19, 17 August 2007 (CDT)


 * I was using it way back since Faction came out on my PvE'sin even with 10 energy. Pretty good skill considering the damage is armor ignoring.--Cosmitz 16:06, 19 August 2007 (CDT)

I think they should make this skill inflict cracked armor because there hasnt really been any big buff other than 5 nrg activation (not big buff really) and also whats the point of introducing a new condition with only a few skills to cause it and adding cracked armor infliction on this skill wouldnt be that overpowered and would be a good addition to one of the few skills to inflict cracked armor IMO ImpulseDestiny 05:01, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Related Skills
Why is this considered related to Iron Palm, other than the word palm, which doesn't mean anything, really--Daniel Rendat 01:52, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Touch skill, deals damage, considered part of a combo. Need anything more? --Kale Ironfist 02:28, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

*Sigh *
I don't want to start a revert war, so i'll just post my reasons for beleiving Iron Palm to be a related skill here. Then, when nobody reads this, i'll just quietly add it back at a time when the wiki is inactive and nobody will notice. No policies broken :-)

The reasons why these skills are related are as follows: --Cobalt | Talk  20:31, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * They are both Touch Skills
 * They are both touch skills that deal non-descript damage
 * They are both touch skills that deal non-descript damage and count as part of an assasin attack chain
 * They both have the word 'palm' in the name (no shit)
 * Both skill icons feature Disembodied red hands (true story)
 * Surely the fact that their both touch skills from the same prof that deal non-descript damage and count as part of an attack chain is reason enough...i've seen far more tenous links approved for counting as 'related'.

My favorite Assassin elite. Combine with Blinding Powder and Unseen Fury for unblockable onslaught.Kaze

Update
Seems imba now. AnOriginalConcept 03:10, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * MASSIVELY imba. Nerf imminent --Gimmethegepgun 04:03, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It's so good, lol [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 04:05, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * So lovely that buff ;D Weird that it is a PvP buff too --Birchwooda Treehug 05:31, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Now my PvE assassin is even more imba, not that he needed it.--Łô√ë [[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg|Ho ho ho.]]îğá †ħŕášħ 05:32, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Playing with this in pvp now... lolz. Cress Arvein [[Image:Cress sig.JPG]] 05:39, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * There's no way this won't be nerfed O_O I hope they don't over nerf it though... Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|18px]] (T/C) 13:40, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yup, cripple should be 8-10 seconds at 13 crit strikes, and damage a little lower, like 55 or something. Then it's good but not OP. --[[Image:Takisig.jpg]] Taki Fujiko  16:06, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Why would a PvE sin use this? PvE sins use Shadow Form, Moebius with DB, or Flashing Blades --Gimmethegepgun 20:56, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * They'll reduce cripple duration and increase recharge. My sin uses Assassin's Promise in pve btw. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 20:57, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, forgot that one. But my point still stands, this is basically worthless in PvE compared to other elites --Gimmethegepgun 21:00, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I used this elite wherever I went, regardless of PvE or PvP even before this buff, and I still plan to, it's my favorite Assassin Elite. I prefer to avoid S.Form and Moebius, and I only use F.Blades for fun. [[Image:H.K.jpg|19px]]Kaze 21:41, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It survived its first update without any nerfs, gogogo. --[[Image:Takisig.jpg]] Taki Fujiko  15:20, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I never use dagger for my sin in PVE... Critical Scythe Sin with Asuran Scan + Aura of Holy Might owns dagger sin. However, this skill is definitely overpowered in PvP.122.57.96.236 15:11, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

So, every Assassin in Alliance Battles using this yet? Darmikau 20:33, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes they are and its only a annoyance when they use it on my heal/smite monk, they'll notice they wont be able to kill me that easy so they teleport out leaving me crippled :| Durga Dido 20:42, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Wow, it seems you've met the most elite, experienced, and best of all the assassins in the game. They'll go away when they realize that they're not gonna kill you or do anything useful. Amazing, simply amazing --Gimmethegepgun 20:44, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Heh, I figured. One of the most underused assassin skills, a single buff, one of the most used. I know I shouldn't complain but I'm one of *those* people, the *before it was cool* people. =P Darmikau 21:06, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I know, the addition of cripple single-handedly made dagger sins viable in PvP again. Of course, dagger sins are not allowed in PvP, so it will get nerfed :( --Macros 20:51, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I dont know about you, but a reduction in cripple duration, at least, wouldn't really be a nerf. it's still spamable enough to make a whole team look like grandma's. The damage isn't really too imba because it's taking into account that it's replacing a lead and offhand attack. and even if they made it something like a dead attack, i don't think that would even nerf it, because then people would use jungle strike for an even stronger spike. But yea, this does need to have a (at least) slight reduction of cripple duration. People have been able to use this in HA instead of wards in alter caps now with how spammable it is. Which is nice cause then you dont need to devote things to earth magic...but yea...with it's recharge time, just reduce cripple duration to like 6-8 seconds or something...that seems perfectly reasonable. still potent, but not leaving a character without condition removal movemently "useless" in places like AB or RA.--Demer Osis 15:39, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Seriously retarded
Four seconds, anet? Four? What are they thinking? Palm Strike sins are everywhere in PvP now because it's too imba to ignore. I've seen them in RA, GvG, AB, and HA (I don't keep up with HB but I'm positive they're 'Striking the shit out of that, too)--all, more or less, to equal effect, but they just trump RA. I've been (ab)using this since the change. I got an RA team with two monks, a necro with no direct damage (not at all sure what he did, maybe degen), and myself on Palm Striking detail. As the only output of damage, I still killed all four people on every team through 10 wins, including a few with monks and one with dual healers. One guy should not have the ability to take down every target in the game. Blinded/hexed/blocking? Just spam Palm Strike til it ends. Someone coming for your monk? Palm Strike as linebacking. Low target? Palm Strike as a finisher. Kiting target? Palm Strike as a snare. Best of all--it recharges in four f%&*cking seconds so you can do all of the above if you want to. P.S. Fun fact:  Blessed Light, Mend Body and Soul, Dismiss Condition, Plague Touch, and Weapon of Remedy are the only self-targeting skills in the game that recharge fast enough to keep the cripple off of you. Bonus: Weapon of Remedy still wouldn't counter Trampling Ox's knockdown, MBaS needs spirits, Blessed is a 10e elite, and who carries Plague Touch? In addition, "Can't Touch This!" is the only method of preventing the cripple, and it's too gimmicky to work into a decent build. (Not to mention it'd be largely useless, anyway, because you can break it down with a couple of spammed attempts, and your high Critical Strikes would get the energy back in no time.) 68.189.248.104 14:33, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * People dumb enough to spam should get diverted. Its cripple duration should span from 1...6...8 seconds or something, yes, but until that happens try kiting, diverting, snaring, or interrupting. Lazuli  01:32, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

just use an outoforder attack and the diversion is useless against assas...
 * Yes, if you are expecting to be diverted and are not focussed on your target. It's not as simple as you'd might think. Diversion has and always will be the answer to skill spammers. King Neoterikos 23:00, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
 * A 3 second Activation HEX is the "Answer"??... Haha, in that case Anet needs to make an Elite "Diversion" of it then that activates like a Shout (maybe they could just replace the functionality of Simple Thievery or Panic since no one likes either of those Mez "elites") --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](26,Dec.'08)
 * Fast Casting, plz. King Neoterikos 23:14, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Domination as a secondary plz --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]
 * Wtf do you mean secondary? I'm talking about mesmers using Diversion on an assassin, and how it is not that easy to suddenly stop your chain to use an out-of-order attack to remove it if you are focussed on another target, which is what usually happens. [edit] Oops, thought you knew I meant using it on a mesmer primary. King Neoterikos 23:53, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "which is what usually happens"...mmmkay, I'll take your word for it. My personal point was that there's no way you're getting me in an arena against all these FotM(or Year) Assassins with nothing but enchants and weak stances to protect myself if I have the option of taking Elite Forms or countering-skills and attacks from a better Primary --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]
 * What would Burning Shield and Spear Swipe do against Palm Strike? [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 21:50, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Nothing...b/c it wasn't the point. --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]
 * Of course my point was the same as Lazuli's, I was only elaborating on the diversion part. King Neoterikos 22:19, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Indeed it is hard to counter this ps assa chain. As to the 1st post, yes they are using it in HB, moreover, it is nearly the only build in there. And im getting sick of it. You will be knocked down no matter what, unless you can remove cripple before the assa hits trampling. This means you almost have to start casting before PS. It is nearly impossible as a monk to prevent or survive these spikes, as the assa can fire them every 8! seconds, and if he has horns with him also you are kd-locked until youre dead, unless you started at max hp. Still, perhaps something like Spirit Shackles and empathy might be used to protect against this FotM build. Ill try a mesmer hero in HB and see if it helps against this imba crap.Breintje(P/T) 09:51, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * LoL... didn't BunnyWay Wars/Rangers get nerfed like REALLY hard when they were able to perma KD everyone long ago? ...I seem to recall Stonefist Insigs and (my personal fav in PVE)Energizing winds all being prevented from overlapping over the years because of it. *grumble grumble*...f**king PvP!!! --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](04,Jan.'09)
 * dshot/dchop > Palmstrike. Despite being imba this skill is the easiest thing in the game to interrupt because you can expect every sin to run around with this thing in RA/AB. Although I cant really say much since I usually pvp main ranger so i can mend touch and block the chains, powerful disabling skills are extremely powerful weapons to use against PS sins, or any class for that matter. I expect that a bigass nerf is not long coming along with VoR, MoI, and some of the other skills that were half-assedly buffed to ridiculous proportions. Drakemaelstrom 01:57, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Though I agree this skill is overused and the assassins are everywhere in HA there are a lot of counters for this build. Most of the time I'm running either a PD or a PB mesmer in HA. One simple diversion is enough to render the sin useless for a minute because they have no other skills they can start their chain with. Even if you're not good at timing your diversion you'll still have a good chance that you divert an attack skill like Trampling Ox which will also greatly hinder the sin. If you have a ranger he/she should be able to land a dshot to the chain (though this is a bit hard and requires some timing). Also with decent monks/communication your prot monk should be able to put a Guardian or Stability on the target and don't forget Weapon of Warding which is also quite popular. Though of course monking will be a bit harder with all the eles throwing AoE on you and your team there are enough counters for these sins which will render them near to uselessness. The thing where those sins are really overpowered are capture points/relic runs where you have wards AND spammable cripple.

No Lead Attack Note
I added the note because I have seen a disturbing number of people in game and on the various wikis that seem to think this skill requires a lead attack first. I can see how the wording in the skill description could be confusing to those quite inexperienced with Assassins. Lazuli 01:23, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Note about not requiring lead attack
Your &#91;Dr ishmael's&#93; reasoning why it is obvious (because it's a skill) doesn't quite ring true. There are spells and a signet that require parts of the chain, to say nothing of another skill. The real reason it should be obvious it doesn't need a lead attack is because nowhere in its description does it say it requires one. And the other notes are just as obvious. I think it's a valid note, perhaps just because I've run into a disheartening number of people that don't understand how it works. I'm in favor of restoring the note, but I have no intention of going over your head to do so. Care to discuss? Lazuli 15:16, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Meh. One of my main rules is "don't pander to stupid people," so I tend to remove a lot of notes like that.  If other people agree on keeping it, I won't mind.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:09, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * All skills that require lead attacks state so in the description last time I checked. Redundant. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  17:46, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I guess the problem is that Guild Wars sends conflicting messages. From the beginning of Factions, Assassins are instructed to think that the chain is always Lead, Offhand, Dual.  And the other offhand type skills that don't need a lead clearly state different requirements.  And in the case of Black Spider Strike, there's a note stating that it needs no lead.  Huh... Personally, I'd rather cut some of the "stupid people" a break once in a while.  Thanks for explaining your reasoning, though. Lazuli  18:13, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I turned it into a more interesting note, since it's the only "counts as a " skill that has no requirement at all. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 18:53, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * J Striker's rewording of the note seems appropriate. I corrected his rewording a tiny bit, thereby rewording the rewording.  Perhaps now we can put this all behind us. Lazuli  03:11, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Somebody need to remove the excessive note now. It is way too obvious to any assassin who actually use the skill not 'reading' it. Also the trample ox note, blinding power, unseen power, touch skill. What else? put the whole build in maybe the next step. Those things in the note is definitive by itself why the note.


 * I agree. I'm deleting it unless someone knows why it's of note that you can apply Blinding Powder "without hitting the target first". RabidCoqui 12:18, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Completely needs nerf.... but yet Balanced...
I really think that this skill is absurdly overpowered and needs a nerf immediately.... HOWEVER!!!

VoR mesmers have diminished in quantity.

This could be one of two things:

1.) All of the people on the VoR wagon are now on the PS wagon...

2.) PS balances out the imbalance of an overpowered VoR.

They say two wrongs dont make a right.... but what if everyone is wrong? Anet is slowly but surely buffing all of the classes to be incredibly annoying (having one build that every single person runs) If every class has the standard annoying build then its not really annoying anymore is it?

Either way.... Nerf the hell out of PALMSTRIKE (and take VoR with it) pls kthx.98.193.121.227 01:52, 4 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I just finished r1 of my glad title, as a monk, in RA. RA is hell. between the n00b palmstrikers (Yes, every effing sin uses palm strike now. EVERY one.) and the backfire/vor/diversion/shame mesmers (can a brother get a holy veil ova here?) I had quite a frustrating time. Please anet, please pleast nerf palm strike. It is sooooooooooooo imba. increase energy to 10 and recharge to AT LEAST 8. (GW-Kiron 08:13, 5 January 2009 (UTC))
 * That would make it worse than pre-buff. Just drop cripple. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 14:05, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Increase recharge to 6, lower cripple duration to 6, give or take a sec. - insidious  420  14:54, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree fully with the nerf both proposition. But I dont think one can say that sins who use palm strike are noob, because I can't really bring myself to blame a guy whose simply using what works. Yes, its clearly imbalanced, but there far from CHEATING, so theyre just using what they know to be supurbly efective. I can't blame them, I blame the skill. Im a balanced world, palm strike would get used as much as any pother elite. But its not, therefore the skill is imbalanced. I say up the recharge to 8. Leave the energy at 5 tho. Shadowshear 15:03, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree on the nerf bit, either longer recharge or higher energy or drop cripple, or perhaps add some malus to it, lengthen casting time, w/e. Personally i suggest to make it an Off Hand attack, that requres no lead, since that way Blind would help against it. Someone a NERF tag? I disagree with Kiron, as a RA monk i have actually seen some others, being the Backbreaker sin. True, 90% runs PS, but definately not all. EDIT: My suggestion for the skill can be found here due to some formatting problems with the skillbox in this page. What do you think of it? Breintje(P/T) 17:59, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * What's up with all this Nerf talk? ...Why not just BUFF the weaker skills that are supposed to counter stuff like this, and then add a few more counters to it in other powers? Touch skills and certain hexes have always been kinda Imba in the PvP metagame ever since 2004 and more counters to them are long over-due --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](5,Jan.'09)


 * It needs a nerf because it's imba. It's huge damage and cripple. On a 4sec recharge. Even if you make CTT recharge the touch skills, it's easy to bust through it / swap to a DIFFERENT TARGET (hellooo, 8 man teams!). Besides, just 2 of these can basically kill a team, because it pumps out amazing DPS and KDs. A normal 2 monk backline can't cope with that. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  21:18, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Even if CTT was awesome, that's still not as good of an idea as nerfing this. Just because a hard counter exists does not mean this is balanced in any way; people can not possibly bring hard counters to every build, or anywhere close. Power creep is bad, too. --  Shadowcrest  21:21, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay I see your point and you right... powercreep is Bad. I was just makin the point that a lot of touch skils have always been out there on the periphery for over 4 years now and it's time that Anet owned up to it with some better counters besides just "CTT" and Diversion.  ...why not put some counters in Balt's Pendulum, Tainted, and "Incoming"?(<--just random examples).--ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](5,Jan.'09)
 * Imho it is bad to balance all 500-something skills up because there are a few imba's. That would then require lots of other changes, since lots of items/stats need to be balanced to the skills too. Also, other skills didnt change, just this one got OP. Easyest way would be "Nerfing". Personally I dont favor big nerfs, but in this case definately one would be in place. Just as backbreaker. It shouldnt be so |severe as to remove it altogether from meta, just make sure all skills are used at about the same frequency. I know eventually a build will emerge that can counter imba teams, but that build probably sucks against most other teams. And it just gets boring if there is no diversity, and winning is determined if you are lucky to get up against the team your gimmick build can beat, while the real skilled balanced playing guilds stand no chance. Sure this is very very hard, but so far A-net has been doin quite a good job, imho it is waaayyy better then some other mammoth MMORPG which recently released a new expansion.Breintje(P/T) 22:55, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

I would be pretty irritated with any nerf that makes Palm Strike less effective than it was before December, since I was using it with great effect before then (glad points etc) and I don't really need the cripple. 10e would suck. 01:53, 6 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Agreed. When it's nerfed, don't make it worse than it was, because the point was to make it at least viable for common play. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  17:38, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

I think its neat. Sure it makes sins able to dual attack, but kite pass them or take sin secondary. If you nerf this too much sins are back to being underdogs in pve.91.108.94.240
 * You can't kite past them because you are crippled and/or on the floor the whole time.I hate to break it to you, but sins be definition are underdogs in pve, a class that is a glass cannon does not work in pve,especially in this game where Anet thinks more mobs and stupid overpowered monster only skills are the way to make a mob powerfull.Nobody is saying or cares that this skill is overpowered in pve because there it does not matter.The sin still has to survive the hits from the mobs.Durga Dido 02:07, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Palm Strike is horrible in PvE. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 02:09, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Nerf
Seems fairly balanced now. 69.232.230.85 03:08, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Still quite effective. I'm glad they reduced the cripple duration by a lot. it was way too powerful of a snare before. people could palm strike a whole team and watch everyone stumble around for a while. now, it cant be used as a snare in HA instead of Ward Against Foes...etc. But yea, much more balanced.--66.192.104.13 04:28, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Nah it needs a little bit more ,up the damage and cripple by 2 ranks, so 17...61...76 damage 2...5...6 cripple and change recharge to 8.That way if you use this on someone with condition removal and they remove the cripple, you would have to wait a bit before you can start your chain again.4 seconds is just way too spammable. Durga Dido 04:41, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Most non-imba Assassin builds have to wait "a bit" before they can start a combo again. This is why unblockable chains are so popular. The recharge needs to be higher, but really, even if this dealt crap damage like 40 at rank 15, people would still use it just because it is a great and basically uncounterable KD lock. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:58, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

LoL, that was fast... --ilr(08,Jan.'09)


 * Yeah, exactly. The problem wasnt the damage or the snare, its that every four seconds an assassin can use a dual attack without fail. its immmmmba. (GW-Kiron 09:05, 9 January 2009 (UTC))


 * Completely agree with you Entropy,I don't think anyone takes it for the damage, which yes before was nice and now is just ok, its the fact thats is spammable and can't miss and sets you up straight for a dual attack is what makes it a great ( and unbalanced ) skill to use.izzy nerf the recharge..( just in case long text confused you Durga Dido 10:09, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Nerfing the recharge was what everyone expected him to do. We should have known better. --Macros 12:43, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think Izzy programs the actual skill changes, from the looks of it. He seems more like PR or a liaison making recommendations to the folks who actually do it. 192.197.54.29 15:47, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * If recharge is imba, then you need to nerf Vampiric Touch/Bite, 7 touch rangers can spike down a target quite quick with no way of protting even. And no one who thought through it complained about the damage, just the cripple duration.--66.192.104.13 18:04, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * 7 Touch rangers would blow up, though. A PS sin doesn't necessarily, and also KDs a shat load. There's a huge difference there. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  18:12, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * @66.192.anon. So you compare 7 touch rangers against 1 sin using PS chain? BTW you can just run away from a touch ranger, or even 7,when people discus tactics to use against touch rangers for people that cant kill the ranger (for example monk) 2 things that almost always come up, cripple them and/or just run away from them( as in keep your distance,not pull up your tail and run to your base).You can't really run from a SP sin, you can't run away from a sin because well.... your crippled, and if you were to cripple him, then chances are most likely he crippled you too,so that doesn't really help.Ow another thing did you forget that the SP chain will keep you knocked down almost the whole time? Durga Dido 19:26, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Ahh Hahh!... now we're getting somewhere! The problem isn't that PS alone is Imba, it's that Sins themselves are too Survivable (like Armor-Stacking Warriors and PGoons used to be) and they can spam KD's on top of that.  I also gotta point out that the subject of Touch skills not having enough Counters yet was raised here again.  ...I'm not ready to say "I told ya so" yet, but I'm getting close, LoL. --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](09,Jan.'09)


 * What are you talking about? A PS Sin won't blow up because you still have a back/midline instead of ONE supportive character. I was comparing it to 7 touchers, remember? And it really is just PS being imba, because KDs are so spammable because PS immediatly leads to the strong Dual attacks, which include TOx and HOTOx, which KD. A lot.
 * A PS sin is still only as survivable as a generic Ele in just about any form of PvP, since they generally don't take defesive skills (TA being the sole exception). --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  21:56, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Formerly, PS could only be used about once per chain, and didnt set up TO. now you can literally use a two dual chain, then use PS again, and use a third dual attack. Its ridiculous. the added cripple was enough to make PS good. Either the cripple needs to go, or the recharge does.(68.63.217.123 23:53, 9 January 2009 (UTC))


 * 7 Rangers = 1 Sin? K it's your story, tell it anyway ya want ;) --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]


 * I will bet money that Izzy will fuck this up. Next month instead of changing the recharge he will remove the "This skill counts as a offhand attack" and thereby completely fuck this skill over. Goodbye dagger sins. 219.89.30.26 12:17, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

If I didn't we would all be writing one character per line. Anyway on topic, I think people would rather sins not be in the game. I have had this argument in other places, Assassins are still going through growing pains. The class was never properly thought out. It has caused tons of problems, because here you have this class with so much awesome potential. Yet all of that potential would in effect ruin balance. You just can't properly balance Assassins. The class is build around these really great concepts. Shadow stepping, killing with a combo, just tons of really cool stuff. The problem is that balancing it all won't work. You have too many "traditional" classes already built into the game for things like the Assassin to work. I hope they don't nerf this skill though, I think it is a real shame what has happened to so many sin skills. To answer the question, no I don't play an Assassin. I play a ranger and a warrior but I still think it is crazy how bad this class got the shaft. Tenetke MekkoMy Talk Page 13:29, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, i have an idea, since this skill is still overpowered, they should change it so that, 5 second recharge, 125 damage, blockable, and does burning for 1...8 seconds, and we can make it ranged, and add a few other skills with faster activation and interupts plus other conditions all with a 5 second recharge and then it wouldn't be overpowered. oh wait, rawr runs that build, and nnoone complains about that. This skill is fine, kiting is easy and your just really bad. Ohh wait, lets make it so assasins can only do 10 dps cap, and rangers steal 150 health every time they hit, oh and d-shot shouldn't have a recharge cus it isn't overpowered, yeahh.tsupert75.189.250.119 21:35, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The biggest problem with assassins in the past seems to be that people think they should be balanced for the random 4 man pvp. While the idea of the class (to do spike damage every once in a while) doesn't work well in 8v8 if its toned down for 4v4.  The assassin doesn't do huge dps over time, is generally easy to stop combos (since normally any failure to hit ends the combo, although the PS seriously hinders this disadvantage), and is much softer than a warrior for frontline.  Personally, I find the assassin is fun to play in situations like Alliance Battles where you can run around and pick off random targets, but there is a reason that assassin's never really took the place of a warrior for frontline.  Anyway, PS was overpowered, and with the current recharge and such, the whole chain is only slightly diminished in power, so it is still something to worry about.  Finally, PS is also nice with recent nerfs to all the shadow stepping skills, being able to shadow walk immediately followed by the first hit of your chain is very nice. 71.202.180.150 05:36, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * "Assassins don't do huge dps over time"?....LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. 71.251.51.73 16:07, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * This skill will get nerfed, because some people can not stand a balanced playing field. Sins have what, one or two valid pvp builds. A few pve builds and that is it. I would suggest before anyone changes the few skills sins have left, they remember the reason these skills were buffed. Assassins have so little to even use, most of their skills have been nerfed into nothing. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke MekkoMy Talk Page 18:20, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Just because most of a profession is bad doesn't warrant its good skills being overpowered. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 18:36, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I can actually see where izzy has come from with this. Sins have been stuck as a 1-2-3-4-5-6 class because of the difficulty of reaching their good skills (dual attacks), which necessitates the use of large chains. So by having a quick recharging offhand requiring no lead, you should be able to run a few dual attacks then some utility or w/e. But since your daggers do shit damage, you just run a fucking big chain anyway, and its far more stupid than before. Defending this based on other sin skills being bad is a stupid argument. Lord of all tyria 19:46, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Going back to assassins dont do dps, Palm Strike in its nerfed state can net up to 65 DPS from death Blossom spamming.--66.192.104.13 00:12, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
 * What happens when a class has no useful skills at all? This skill is only overpowered to people who don't know how to play against it. This skill is not hard to get around. Sorry but that is the sad truth. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke MekkoMy Talk Page 00:42, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Shield Bash, Disciplined Stance, etc are just as effective against PS chains as any other sin chain, the only difference is PS can be used every 4 seconds for mediocre pressure & snare if the rest of chain is disabled/blocked.  At most the recharge should be nerfed to 5 or 6 when it happens. - [[Image:Ins420sig.png]] 420  17:36, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Well the counters to this skill like you posted, skills like shield bash and disciplined stanceand others like it, have a pretty high recharge.In most cases DS will last 3 seconds and shield bash also maybe 3...simply because people aren't gonna sit and spam it.But PS has a 4 seconds recharge,so the only thing those skills will do is slow you down a bit.A 6 second recharge is needed ( i would like 8 but that might be too much for those sins).So for effectiveness this skill shouldn't be changed, it should just be made that when counter skills or removal of the cripple,hampers the assassin a bit more then it does now. Durga Dido 17:48, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Disabling PS
Actually, the best way to counter this skill and it's subsequent combos are to use signet of humility or as the assassin is casting Palm Strike, to begin using condition removal. 99% of the time an assassin will use trampling ox right after, so you'll curb the assassin's combo doing that.--66.192.104.13 20:12, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Sig of hum on PS is hilarious ^. If it was oh-so-easy to stop a PSer, nobody would be running them because warrior's have bulls. Also, sins appear to have multiple good builds, since we ran 3 different ones in a 4 sin gvg last night and beat some real builds on r500 (lolstrong I know) guilds. And we didn't have critscythe or any deadly arts faggotry. So that's not "no skills". Lord of all tyria 20:38, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
 * "What happens when a class has no useful skills at all? This skill is only overpowered to people who don't know how to play against it. This skill is not hard to get around. Sorry but that is the sad truth. Tenetke MekkoMy Talk Page 00:42, 14 January 2009 (UTC)"... No. . What's the point in removing cripple when it's gonna get reapplied 4 seconds later? I assume the people who think this skill is "Balanced" also thought that Ursan needed a buff, back before it was nerfed. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 21:35, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
 * ^ Sereously, if you want to counter Palm Strike entirely, use signet of humility. all most assassins with PS on their bar can do is dagger damage, which is utterly pathetic. just take 3 mesmers with SoH on their bar, camp 1 on the RC and 1 on a palm striker and 1 on another guy. you'll rend the other team almost useless.--66.192.104.13 22:07, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
 * ^ Big bad failure at theorycrafting. If you run 3 mesmers with SoH, you won't be able to win against anything. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 22:12, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Not to mention that this is run everywhere, not just in organized 8 man. GL winning TA with 3 SoH mesmers. --  Shadowcrest  22:15, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm, that Auron guy does have a point though...The classic definition of a skill being universally overpowered, is when total n00bs can spam it without any down-sides or additional risks to themselves. --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]
 * I love how you refer to him as "that Auron guy" &mdash; Nova  [[Image:Neo-NovaSmall.jpg]] &mdash;  (contribs) 22:44, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Probably because he doesn't know who auron is and has no reason to call him otherwise --  Shadowcrest  22:52, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I could call him "Mr Angry Pee Vee Pee MAN" if that would be any better, hehhehheh...--ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]
 * Angry Guild Wars Nerd? :< - Auron 01:35, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Comparing PS to the next closest thing, Golden Skull Strike: both are unconditional offhands; both inflict a condition, GSS' condition is circumstantial; yet GSS has over 3 times the recharge than PS.  Nothing more needs to be said to justify a nerf to PS' recharge.
 * Incidentally & off topic, just want to say from what I've read, Auron's usually spot-on or damn close when it comes to game mechanics/balance. I especially agree w/him on something I read once about how OP (most) hexes are, such as Faintheartedness.  In a game that's supposed to be about balance & skill, there sure are LOTS of examples that prove otherwise. - [[Image:Ins420sig.png]] 420  16:23, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You don't consider the ability to counter something skill? This follows the same basic structure as anything else certain groups do not like. When it comes out, instead of countering people start to whine about how it is "over powered" and "only noobs use it". The same old lines, different day. This skill can be prevented, and countered. How is Golden Skull Strike even close to PS? One is an elite touch skill that causes minor damage and cripple, the other is an elite dagger attack with conditional daze? If you are going to compare crippling skills go ahead. We can start with Crippling Shot. 10 energy 2 recharge unblockable and causes cripple for 8 seconds @ 14 marks. Those are probably the closest two. Cripshot costs 5 energy more, no activation time with a shorter recharge. Ps has an activation, double the recharge but cost 5 less energy and has bonus damage. I wonder if people would be upset if PS was given a 10 energy cost, no damage, 2 sec recharge with no activation and cripple for 8@14? What about "You're All Alone!", a shout so yep that is unblockable, cost 5 energy, 10 recharge causes cripple and weakness for 8 seconds. No bonus damage, and it is conditional. Still another good example of unblockable cripple with a moderate duration. If you do not get the point, let me explain. GuildWars is about adaptation. This skill might have been op to start with, but it isn't anymore. Am I going to convince anyone? No, but that does not change the fact that this skill is balanced people just have to find a way to work against it. I still remember when touch rangers were the fotm and everyone was howling about how over powered they were. Yet you don't really see them anymore because people figured out how to combat them. As for warwick above, you know nothing about me. Please refrain from assuming you do. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke MekkoMy Talk Page 21:23, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I stopped reading at "no activation time". Crip Shot, like every other attack skill, has an activation time. In this case, equal to the attack speed of your bow. Try firing it, and pressing F [Select Self] immediatly (assuming default controls). --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  21:29, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow, that is a bunch of indents. The no activation time is for a straight comparison. If you goto the page you will see there is no activation time listed, I suppose that I could always make one up. Depending on the bow type we could even say that it takes a certain amount of time for the cripple to take effect? Wouldn't really fit in with a straight comparison. Wait, does PS have an aftercast? No probably wouldn't make any sense to list that though... [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke MekkoMy Talk Page 21:44, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It takes time to activate the skill, which in animations is pulling the string backwards. Then it also takes time for the thing to land. And it deals like 1/3 of PS' damage because most CripShotters don't take damage at all. Anyways, it doesn't matter how you put it; it has an activation time.
 * Also, to your addendum: Yes; PS has an aftercast. Almost everything has (1 exception is Ebon Escape (and ofc the shounts, stances etc)). However, as of late "aftercast" means 1.75 sec aftercast, not the "normal" .75 aftercast. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  21:51, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Tenetke: Golden Skull & Palm Strike are similar in the fact that they are both offhands or skills that count as offhands, with no prerequisites, therefore letting you skip a lead attack, & go straight to a dual attack.  Are you kidding about asking how/why I compare them directly?  If you lowered GSS' recharge, it would let you do the same shit that PS lets you do (except less effectively, cuz GSS doesn't have cripple), ie: fit 2 to 3 dual attacks on one bar.  GSS is balanced, PS is not,  it's rly that simple.  PS lets you hit 3 dual attacks in the same or slightly more time than it would take otherwise.  Shit, you'd have to fill your whole bar with 6 to 7 attack skills & a hex or enchantment in order to hit 3 dual attacks otherwise.  And even then you'd most likely lose the IAS you have with typical PS build.  That's not OP to you? - [[Image:Ins420sig.png]] 420  22:17, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Resetting indent again, because it is just crazy. To Vipermagi, I have been around GW long enough to understand the above topic. What I was trying to do is compare the two as listed. I did not want to list anything that was not on the wiki page, so that should explain why I did not include the activation time or aftercast etc. As for the similarity between GSS and PS they do have some things in common. Still the list of things that is different is more important. Take for example that PS isn't an actual attack skill. It is a touch skill. While GSS is an actual off hand attack, PS only acts as one. That may not seem important, and it is a bit trivial. Still I think that it is not a good comparison, just a personal opinion though. Like I said they have similarities, but they also have differences. Personally I think PS has more in common with cripshot. Just an opinion. Also I wanted to say that my posts may have sounded heated, but that wasn't the intention. I really hope that everyone here can discuss things and not get angry or personal with the discussion. I think most people here are intelligent enough to know the difference, but still I wanted to let you know that my posts are not meant to sound "angry" and if you must put a voice with them imagine the voice of a person who is far too happy drinking rootbeer to be angry over something like PS. Tenetke MekkoMy Talk Page 22:45, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Most people here are stupid, but are intelligent enough to know you aren't. Because I can counter every skill in the game with diversion, nothing can be overpowered? Lord of all tyria 22:52, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I think it's still possible to suggest that the way you've presented these arguments, demonstrates that you may not fully grasp or atleast appreciate those key differences, and I really must stress that it's in-bounds to suggest that without crossing any real thresholds into the personal attack zone you're warning against here. The real warning flag for me personally is that you seem to over-sympathize for Assassins for every other skill they must use despite the fact that they already have SEVERAL advantages over every other "caster class" while also getting more Burst-Damage than any melee class has thanks to just this one Elite.   Sorry, but that's a credibility gap there on your part, not a "Known unknown" that the rest of us couldn't even solve with rocket science. :\ --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](16,Jan.'09)

Countering?
Seriously this skill is fine the way it is. If your worried about a sin take some shaodw art skills yourself or kit away from them. Damage output for a sin is high but they are still vulnerable 91.108.94.240.
 * How are you gonna kite, if your crippled and/or your ass is on the floor?And how does taking shadow arts skill help you any more then other skills?Did you mean dark escape?That wont help you because they will just wait for it to end and still kill you.Durga Dido 02:02, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Palm Strike is still broken because it recharges very quickly and lets you skip straight to Dual Attacks. The Trampling Ox + Horns of the Ox KD lock combo does enough damage to kill a player from full health if they don't have any external means of support, or a very quick self-heal/prot. But even then, blocking is no guarantee, because you can simply use Palm Strike again to continue the chain... or start it over entirely.
 * The cripple duration was reduced, and that is good, because it used to be even more ridiculous - it was possible to literally snare the entire team permanently, and that's bullshit. The damage was also toned down a bit, but that wasn't the real problem. See, it's the fact that it bypasses virtually all defenses and is highly spammable that makes this broken. "Can't Touch This!" can be used, but that forces you into a primary/secondary that may not be favorable or available. Hard interrupts/knockdowns work, but with a 3/4 second cast time you need to be a moderately good interrupter already. Knockdown prevention works to keep you from being totally shut down, but unless it is Balanced Stance, they will just use the other Ox attack to KD you anyway. (Balanced Stance has problems of its own, anyway, mainly long recharge.)
 * Even before getting buffed, this was a good skill, for the same reasons - bypassing defenses to use a powerful dual attack quickly. But with the reduced recharge you can now use several dual attacks in fairly quick succession. It is like Moebius Strike except it can't be blocked...and Death Blossom/Moebius has one of the highest DPS for sin builds. The length of the cripple doesn't really matter much, tbh - if it was 3 seconds at 12 critical strikes, it would still work fine for Trampling Ox. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 02:08, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * "primary/secondary that may not be favorable" ... <.< ... sooo much h8 ... >.> --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]
 * starvedforaffectionagon secondary h8s u moar Deviant Priest 06:17, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Paragon secondary gives you access to....what? Very little. There is Disrupting Toss, which is a ranged hard interrupt, but it is conditional, and you may not be using a spear. There is Signet of Aggression, which is useful only for Warrior/Paragons, and not often at that. There is Signet of Removal, which is a bullshit version of Mending Touch or Antidote Signet. There is Enduring Harmony, which can be combined with FGJ on a Warrior/Paragon, but that's a waste of skill slots tbh, especially since they axed FGJ. Other than that - nothing. (R/P is the only build I've seen to date that effectively uses Paragon secondary. There have been some W/P ones which had Command/Motivation in them, but those were never that great.) Thus, changing one's secondary to /P just for Can't Touch This is very meh. And if you already used your secondary for something useful, then you are likewise screwed.
 * Paragon primaries can of course take the skill, and if they use Soldier's Fury that even gives them some sort of synergy too. But, what if one does not want to/can not PvP with a Paragon? Then they are screwed. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:18, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I've seen spear dervishes with AoD in RA. Quite a lot actually. Irritating to kill and deal rather high damage from a distance. Although without their avatar they're just easy prey. But then again, they only use spear stuff, and no command for "can't touch this!" --[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png]]El_Nazgir  08:31, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I haven't seen any Form dervishes for...quite a while. There was some people messing around with AoG after they changed it... once in a while you'll see a Lyssa, rarely a Balthazar (usually denotes noob/new to profession). Avatar of Dwayna is strong, but not many people realize that, since all the other forms offer more immediate, concrete benefits. A spear would seem to be an ideal weapon for it - you have survivability through range, good damage and utility, and faster firing rate than bows or scythes, plus shield for moar armor. (although they may as well have specced 9 command for shield, then...) [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:37, 17 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Thx! My main is a spear Derv that runs AoD and AoL all the time :) ...I certainly wouldn't claim that running midline support on them is in any way easy, Entropys got me there.  A Monk or Rit could probably provide the same level of support with half the twitch skills. BUT, can they run AoM too and ignore the crippling??  I think not.  But in aaaany case; I'm still sticking to my original opinion above that we just need more "skills" to counter Touching :p  --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](17,Jan.'09)
 * Tainted is used in balanced iirc. --  Shadowcrest  20:48, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Reset Indent -So nerf PS because some people can not, or do not want to, go Paragon. That just does not make any sense to me.
 * 1) "Can't Touch This!"
 * 2) Interrupts
 * 3) Knockdowns
 * 4) Balanced Stance
 * 5) Plague Touch
 * 6) Illusion of Haste
 * 7) Fleeting Stability
 * 8) Balthazar's Pendulum

So what would the argument be now? Can't go warrior,ranger,mes,ele,monk,sin,rit, or derv? As for my defense of Assassins, that is because the class has been virtually destroyed by people who are not willing to take the time and learn how to defend against something.--Addition to the above, that people are still talking about PS and Horns of the Ox like they are one skill, they are not. They are different skills, so what is wrong with talking about this skill alone and not combining it with HotO? Tenetke MekkoMy Talk Page 01:50, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * "Can't Touch This!" is for Paragons. Good luck interrupting a 3/4 cast skill reliably (unless you're already used to playing as an interrupter; in that case you should be having no problems). Knockdowns are not a common thing in any way (well, that depends on your class, but still). Balanced Stance requires you to be Warrior, which may not be possible. It also suffers from terribad recharge time. Plague Touch requires you to go Necromancer, but aside from that, you'd have to use it while they are using Palm Strike if you want it to hit before Trampling Ox KDs you. And if they are using an IAS that gives you an even smaller window. Illusion of Haste is pure crap. Balthazar's Pendulum? That is a horrible waste of an elite (in AB at least). Fleeting Stability is the only skill/secondary there which could probably be quite viable in any situation.
 * I am not sure what you mean about HotO. All I have to say about that is that it's always part of the (good) Pimpslap builds, so you may as well talk about them in combination.
 * Assassins deserve to be destroyed, or even outright removed, because they can not be balanced in a game like Guild Wars... not without fundamental/sweeping changes. But that is an argument for another day. The bottom line is that balance is not a cumulative total - you cannot balance the suckiness of Locust's Fury with the overpoweredness of Palm Strike, for example. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 02:06, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Bah edit conflict
 * 1) Is crap for anything but a paragon.
 * 2) Interrupt on a 3/4 cast skill?yeah good luck..
 * 3) So what do you suggest?Gale?Or camping a hammer war on the sin?
 * 4) Recharge is too high, I should know i been using it.
 * 5) You will be on the floor before you can cast it.
 * 6) This is a joke right?Alright i thought so.
 * 7) This would be nice for the casters if it was a stance and cost 5 energy.
 * 8) Hahahaha, ow wait you were serious?I'm sorry.

You have to also think if your counters are of any use for the times you don't come across a palm strike sin.Can't touch this isn't viable because if there are no touch skills to counter then it's a wasted skill.Except for a paragon that could use it for the"while under a shout" skills.I'm pretty sure 3/4 cast skills fall under hard to interrupt, 1 second cast where interrupt really becomes viable.Plague touch is a good skill but you won't be able to get rid of the cripple because you will be on the floor.Illusion of Haste COULD be used on a runner, but i don't think there's anywhere else it would fit.Balthazar's Pendulum is bad, very bad. Durga Dido 02:08, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The problem with "CTT" isn't that you don't know if you should expect Touch Skills. A gamble that only costs one skill slot but pays off big when it pays, is always worth taking, ...nope, The real problem is that it requires 10 command points just to be worth anything against touch spammers.  I still swear by it anyway, hell it's the only reason my "FogNighty Farmer" has a paragon secondary in the first place.  But it also highlights the gradual decline of Command in general; Anet is quietly turning Command into the same sorry weaksauce they made Motivation into. --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](19,Jan.'09)
 * BP helped dR win a gold cape. Lord of all tyria 18:49, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It's useful in some situations and useless in others. AB doesn't usually have enough predictable KDs that I'd want to take it. (I suppose if you take Monk secondary for smiting skills, it would be fine, but I don't know too many such builds.) The main problems with BP is that it's not RC/WoH/other necessary Monk elite. >.> [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 19:21, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Talking about Horns of the Ox and Palm strike like they are the same skill is a waste. You might as well say that Meteor Shower and Mark of Rodgort is too powerful because it causes knockdown,and burning. Horns of the Ox and Palm Strike are two separate skills. If you want to continue combining them go ahead, I will just stay out of the discussion. As for counters, you always take them not knowing if you will need them. Say you take mending touch and there are no conditions? So what, you thought that there might be.
 * "Assassins deserve to be destroyed, or even outright removed, because they can not be balanced in a game like Guild Wars... not without fundamental/sweeping changes. But that is an argument for another day."
 * I completely agree with you on the above Entropy. I have said it before you can not balance Assassins in the current GuildWars. Honestly the only problem I can see with this skill is that it shouldn't cause cripple. I think if they wanted to fix it they should raise the recharge to around 12 and make it cause knockdown instead. That would at least fit more with how Palm Strike works. Durga, I can and have interrupted 3/4 cast before. It isn't terribly hard, especially if they are interrupting something as predictable as PS spam. So please, I doubt most rangers would have a problem with interrupting a 3/4 cast on a repeating target. Aside from just interrupting, a mesmer with just Diversion would take care of that Sin. Knockdowns are caused by more than just gale or a hammer. Unless you are just incredibly slow you can get Plague Touch off before you are hit by horns of the ox. Also I hear quarterknocks work also, unless you are going to tell me that is impossible. In which case I would have to say you are wrong, I have done them several times also. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke MekkoMy Talk Page 18:53, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Are you confusing Horns of the Ox with Trampling Ox? Since that would make more sense. Regardless, skills ought to be discussed in the context of which they are used. Palm Strike just by itself is pretty meh - you get a short cripple and <60 domages. Especially for sins, it's all about how certain skills chain together. Consider Signet of Toxic Shock: it is generally said to be overpowered. However, just by itself it is meh. ~100 damage every 15 seconds on a poisoned foe? The reason it is strong is because it forms a deadly spike along with the rest of the signet spiker chain. In the case of Pimpslap, Trampling Ox by itself is a pretty fair and balanced skill; but together with Palm Strike it becomes much better. (Horns of the Ox used to be a lot stronger, btw - it got nerfed because of overuse. But it's still excellent in nearly any build.)
 * Meteor Shower is pretty balanced. Mark of Rodgort is still way better than it used to be back in the days - 25e and single target only, iirc. Using both of them together is hardly what I'd call an efficient combo, though.
 * The difference between Mending Touch / Conditions and "Can't Touch This", for example, is that you have pretty much a 100% chance of meeting conditions in AB, or any PvP for that matter. With CTT you're looking exclusively for Pimpslap sins. Even if they are playing, you may not encounter them. It's like taking a Dervish with Banishing Strike, to deal with Lichway - even though it's all the Necros play now, you might not see it, and then you have wasted one of your attack skills on something crappy. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 19:21, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

OP qualifications + valid counterarguments
I've seen this a lot in in-game discussions about skills and forums/talk pages alike, but it comes up extremely often when people talk about Palm Strike.

When you're arguing whether or not a skill is overpowered, you hit two brick walls of counterarguments:

1. Dshot/dchop

2. Diversion

What I want to get across is that just because interrupts and shutdown skills exist in the game does not mean no skills are overpowered. Yes, you can dshot/dchop PS or throw diversion mid-chain. Yes, you have viable options of shutting the build down. The problem is that shutdown is not a counterargument for deciding whether or not a skill is overpowered. When discussing OP vs. balance, you have to throw out the counterbuilds; power struggles with skills have to be evaluated by their relative power to other skills/builds. What if Obsidian Flame did 500 damage @ 16? As it stands now, it has a 2 second casting time, which gives you a wide open window to interrupt it. Does that mean it'd be balanced?

I'm not suggesting PS is comparable to a 500 armor-ignoring damage hit; it's a hyperbole to show that it's possible for a skill to be OP, regardless of counters existing in the game. Presume it isn't shut down when evaluating if something is OP or not. You can't answer "is this balanced?" with "don't let him do it." That doesn't answer the question.

More on-topic with Palm Strike itself, its discussion of balance has to consider not just what it is but what it lets you do. Skill balance is evaluated by the other skills in the pool, not just the skill's effect. Prior to this update, Trampling Ox could only be unleashed when someone spent time with a lead and an offhand preceding it (usually with a hex before the lead, if you wanted to guarantee the cripple to guarantee the knockdown). Now that entire approach is inferior, because Palm Strike cuts out the hex and the lead, therefore shutting the window of time to counter it almost completely.

You also have to consider the viability of the available counters. You can scroll up to see some lists, but almost all of them are gimmicky at best. You'd have to take silly secondaries as a haphazard defense against Palm Strike while ditching your regular balanced defense against everything else. The skill inherently challenges people to drop what works to try and muster some makeshift defense against it. When you have to plan your entire build around surviving one frequently used build, there are red flags going up somewhere. And no, kiting is not a valid defense argument against PS. I play PS in RA and kiters never stop its efficacy. Why? Dash. Or, you know, the fact that people have to stop and actually play the game, sometime, rather than run from the PS sin the entire match.

Also to note, Horns of the Ox was nerfed for doing exactly what Trampling Ox is doing now: easily met KD condition with large damage packets. The change made retrogression to the Assassin's meta. How can you argue that?

/book 68.189.248.104 09:01, 20 January 2009 (UTC)