Template talk:Skill box

Archive #1

Auto-categorization of skills without concise descriptions

 * should still be displayed when not specified, to better help users notice it instead of relaying on categorization. The "return to" link seem redundant to me, since the skill box's name field already provides the link. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 21:28, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I know, I just did it for easier return after checking it. you can remove it if you want. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 21:36, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Instead of displaying "" then, could something like "Information missing" (or whatever along those lines) go as the else part? -- Brains12 \ Talk 22:12, 6 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I would prefer something that informs the user of the variable name so they don't have to go to a different page to look it up. Not everyone remembers the exact wording/capitalization/dash-vs-underscore used in the template parameter names. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 22:22, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

BTW, template:skill box draft currently has some other low-priority changes pending (I want to wait to incoporate more changes at once, to minimize the job queue which is at about 20,000 right now.  So when War's proposed changed are finalized, it'd be nice to do them together. -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 22:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * (update) Template:Skill box draft has been updated with the auto-categorization. I'm now waiting for any other proposed changes for the skill box before pushing it live (including possible alternate text to display when concise description is not specified). -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 00:28, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * So whats up with this: Category:Skills_missing_concise_description&mdash;♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 02:52, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * do you mean why is it red, why it has so few stuff in it, or what the entire issue is about? -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 03:23, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Touch Skills
The concise descriptions are noting touch range in the skill type, and not in the description. Maybe we should add a "touch = yes" parameter that would change for instance "Elite Skill" to "Elite Touch Skill"? &mdash; Poki#3, 13:14, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Arg, lemme think about it before I form an opinion. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 23:19, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm going to add the parameter in for now. However,the skill box itself will not display it.  The parameter is there so that other skiill templates (qr etc) have the ability to do so, especially ones that will pair with concise descriptions. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 23:22, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I think individua skill templates should specify "touch = yes" in the same way elites are specified, but I am currently against specifically including it into the skill box itself.  I am modifing the box to check for touch= for autocategorization purposes though. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 23:25, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I was thinking of something exactly like the "elite = yes" parameter. It wouldn't be a big problem to add that to skill templates, since it looks like we only have 42 touch skills. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 23:28, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

An alternative would be to add a "Range" parameter. Values could be Normal, Half, Touch, Melee and Self. - Most spells and bow/spear attacks would be Normal range; - Half-range spells and bow attacks (like point black shot) would be Half; - Touch skills such as blood ritual would be Touch; - Regular melee and melee weapon attack skills would be Melee; - All Stances, rituals, self-targeting skills such as fire attunement and elite forms, and PBAoE skills like cyclone axe and star burst would be self. Also "None" could be used in place of "Self" if that was deemed more appropriate. --Dracaena 07:34, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I think that's overkill :/ But anyway, are we going to do this? Because I really want to add the concise descriptions to some skills, but I can't because I'll be ignoring touch range :/ &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 10:09, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * We definitely need something for this, either using "touch=yes" and "half-range=yes", or using "range=xxx". The range parm has the potential to be more widely useful, but it would be a lot of work to add it to every skill.  The touch/half-range parms would be much  easier to do (only have to add to certain skills), and for this template we could just add the following between the Elite check and the type check:


 * So that, say, Star Burst would show up as "Elite Touch Spell," just like the in-game concise description shows it. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 06:53, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


 * We really need these... Someone added a note some time on Ice Spear cause it, as noted, only states half range in the Skill Type. I find the "Elite Touch Spell" and "Half Range Spell" that Ishy proposed good. Might stretch the skillbox a bit, though... --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 16:30, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The longest Type would be on Point Blank Shot and Zojun's Shot, which are Half Range Bow Attacks. This is what Point Blank Shot would look like, it's only ~30px wider.  Some people might complain that it looks odd, but I don't think the stretching will really be a problem.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 18:17, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 * That doesn't look too horrible. At least it then clarifies the whole skill :) --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 18:20, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

So what happens if some skill IS half-range only, but the in-game concise description does omit mentioning it? Do we display it or not? We have a tradition of sticking with in-game text errors and then clarify on the side. The above current proposal would not let us handle this situation. -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 21:01, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Fact is, the concise does state the range (unless you can find me one not stating such?). And there's Template:Anomaly. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 21:03, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 * My question is about implementation details (whether the range should be automatically or manually inputted), not whether to implement it. We made a conscious decision to leave out the skill type and attribute from the original "skill description".  Now the circumstances is different, so obviously we should re-evaluate the original decisions made.  My question is part of that evaluation.  Basically, are we now going to incorporate the entire skill type and attribute text into the description area of the skill article? -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 23:20, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 * There are only ~60 touch skills and ~15 half-range skills in the game (including monster-only ones). I don't see a need to overturn that decision for such a small number of skills.  I also couldn't find any skills that said "half the normal range" in the full description but weren't typed as "Half Range" skills, nor could I find any skills that said "target touched" that weren't "Touch" skills (I didn't re-read all 2881 of them, I just used Excel's search, so that's not 100% certain).  If there are any, they would be very few, and we can just mark them as anomalies.
 * One argument for adding the type back to the description is that the type in the standard descriptions doesn't include the Touch or Half Range identifier, so we'd be able to document the difference that way. However, I see little value in doing that, so I still argue for simply adding Touch or Half Range to the type in the infobox.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 02:39, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * P.S. Right after I posted that, I think I just "got" what you were saying about automatic vs. manual - you mean whether we should simply put "Half Range Spell"/"Touch Skill"/etc. directly in the 'type' parameter, or whether we should add new 'halfrange' and 'touch' parameters. I would vote for the latter, as those parameters could then be easily utilized by the other 'Skill box ***' templates, without having to use StringFunctions to parse out the 'type' parameter.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 02:44, 27 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Blah, somehow I got confused into thinking the proposal is to do it the GWW way. Crossing out irrelevant stuff I previously stated.  Anyways, I am more supportive of a Range parameter, that by default figures things out from its skill type and only need to be specified in special cases.  This would increase the height of the skill box instead of the width. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 03:04, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Profession icon...
The small profession icon is touching the profession name sometimes (if the profession name is long, and the skill type is short). See Dark Aura, Arc Lightning etc. &mdash; Poki#3, 23:56, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Flush your cache and let me know if it is better now. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 01:12, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * It's ok now... EDIT: Well... not always. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 10:10, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Bold text
Is ugly. (I mean the energy cost and those things). Drag nmn  talk cont  19:57, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Using this template for non-skills
I was wondering about the implications of using this template for things that are not technically skills, e.g. Environmental Effects, Conditions, and Disguises. It's already being used for a few, like Lucky Aura and Chains of Enslavement. I'm wondering this because in my search through gw.dat for concise descriptions, I found that all skills, effects, blessings, conditions, etc. are treated essentially the same by the game engine in that they all have a name, a description, and a concise description. Since I'm pretty sure we'd want to document these concise descriptions, it would make sense to use this template. However, I'm a bit hesitant to change up existing articles for this - especially the Conditions pages, which have looked the same for over a year. On the other hand, most of the env-effect pages need some cleanup, and this could help...

Bah, I don't know. For now I'll just finish adding concise descriptions to things that already use the template. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 07:19, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I think it would be a good idea to come up with a similar template for enviromental effects. Similar but it does't need all the same info and it could be a different color and trigger different categories. 69.122.146.84 18:10, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


 * That's probably the way to go - especially since, as you noted, they wouldn't need even half the features this template has. I'll get concise descriptions on the rest of the "real" skills, then start working on that.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 01:36, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I got one mocked up: User:Dr ishmael/Effect box, see it in action at User:Dr ishmael/Test Effect. I suck at design, so I dunno what sort of color would be good for the header row.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 06:43, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

TOC
If you add NOTOC to this page, will it remove the table of contents from all skill pages? --Macros 04:43, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes. The TOC was intentionally placed there.  You'd have to dig back on the original discussion.  I don't even remember which side of the argument I was on anymore... -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 04:59, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I couldn't find the original conversation, but I assume most people involved aren't active on the wiki anymore. The TOC box is right in the middle of the template, and it's really ugly. Could we have some sort of revisit to determine if we should keep it? --Macros 05:17, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with debating the position of the TOC. I am against unitarially removing TOC from all skill articles (but that might mean no TOC by default and give TOC on special cases).  I also think I have a better work around against the issue that originally placed the TOC there.  Go to 800x600 resolution and take a look at, say, Backfire with TOC collapsed to appreciate the original issue that made Fryen put the TOC where he put it. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 05:28, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Why do we need a TOC? Skill articles are ridiculously short. And 90% of the content is the same for all of them (Acquisition, Notes, Related articles.)
 * If we can't have it that way, then could someone make a few test pages showing the TOC is different places? Then we could vote on the best one. --Macros 05:37, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I see the problem with pages like Backfire. Would there be any way to condense the attribute box for 800x600 only? Though, that page looks ugly with AND without the TOC, but maybe that's just because I never use 800x600 :P --Macros 05:37, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Essentially every attributed-skill will have the same problem. I think the next larger standard resolution also has problems too.  I have a solution, but the solution involves putting a blank space where the current TOC is.   Anyways, some skill pages do get a bit long.  Thus I do think having a TOC helps. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 05:45, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, the TOC was always below the description, but above the progression table (like in one of my skills) and not at the very top. Didn't you accidentally break something during one of your updates Pan? ^^; &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 09:47, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Poki you came intot he conversation late. Backfire is now on a testing version of the skill box.  Go pick a random other attributed skill to look at d-: -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 16:49, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * ...anyway, why change the TOC? :/ It's fine as it is... &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 17:00, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I am inclined to agree with Macros here that the current TOC position for the skill articles is arbitrary and unconventional. Typically it should be either at the top of the page or before the first heading.  The reason why it was placed between description and progression was just to fill up empty space, and thus I am proposing an alternative that would also satisfy the "filling up space" goal while adhering to more natural expectations of TOC positioning. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 18:15, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * IMHO the most important thing on that page is the skill description, so that should be at the top. It definitely looks bad that the icon and other data on the right is at the top, and the actual description is sometimes below that. I agree that it should be on the top for almost every page, but skills are an exception. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 18:43, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The TOC links to the Description as the first and foremost item, so I consider that a sufficient compromise to honor "Description" as the #1 important item on the page. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 19:19, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

bug with new autocats
The new autocat section has a bug - it allows cats on User: pages. I made a change to the draft that so that all -ed pages get handled separately, and only Template: pages get the template cat. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 20:28, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * User skills shouldn't use this template, as they'd introduce random red links. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 20:36, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Fact remains a lot of users made skills before the User skill box template existed. And some didn't know of that template and used the normal template anyhow... --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 20:37, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * There's 10-20 user skills in each of the subcats from Category:Eye of the North skills. True, they shouldn't be using it, but they are, so we should at least safeguard against it.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 20:45, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I advocate to change those usages to . Having them showing up in the categories help us catching the improper usage. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 20:59, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * As an additional note, some users just copy what they see on other user's userpages. So the more improper usage of templates are out there, the more it propagates, and it'd be more work when it comes time to clean them up. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 21:05, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Well then, as the wiki janitor, I guess it's my job to clean up those user skills. :P &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 21:12, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Holy shit... O_O  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 21:16, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Um... Pan, don't look now, but one of your skills is on there... >.> Felix, RT, Giga, Shadowcrest, Gordon, Viper...  damn.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 21:19, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I just noticed something else - it now ignores the  parameter. Was this also intentional? &mdash;Dr Ishmael 21:23, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes. My reasoning was that if it's not supposed to be categorized, I assume it's a user skill so it should use the other template.  Immature assumption? -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 21:47, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, my original new design is to have Skill box transclude another template, that handles the actual layout, and have skill box only add categorization. Then the "nocat" would be the same as just using the inner template. That is when "nocat" got removed. But then I decided to also move auto-linking to Skill box, so that the underlying template can be used by users too.  And then somebody pointed out that  already exist, so I reverted everything except teh categorization scheme, with nocat still being removed...  -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 21:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, so that's what was.  Anyway, I saw nocats used on nearly all monster and temporary skills when I added the concise descriptions.  Since they hadn't been cat'ed before, they suddenly created a bunch of redlink cats when you updated this yesterday.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 22:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Try contacting users with many skills and ask them to do it, I just killed mine.--[[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg]]ìğá†ħŕášħ is hosting a beauty pagent! 22:13, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That's what I was thinking of doing, actually. And thanks!  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 22:18, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmm, Monster skills would be something we probably should build into the categorization system. Do they current all have Profession set to "Monster"? -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 23:08, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I believe most of the monster skills do, yes, although there are some showing up in Category:Common skills. There's also Junundu skills, special-event skills (Snowball/Dragon/Rollerbeetle arenas), and the various EotN PvE skills showing up in that cat as well.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 00:54, 9 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmm... holiday/event skills should probably count as special "Campaigns"? (even though some might themselves be campaign-specific?) -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 03:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I could bot change to  on all user namespace Random Time  05:37, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Could, but if it has an icon it wouldn't show in the user version. Entrea complained at me about that last night. Dr ishmael 21:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Dual Icon weirdness
Perhaps its my browser (only have IE6 at the moment), but it appears that dual icons (luxon/kurzick skills like Ether Nightmare) do have a problem formatting/aligning nicely next to each other. IMHO the problem is a space too many:  ..Luxon]] Luxon... ^        This space should not be there  -- -- ( talk ) 11:17, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think any of those spaces around the K/L icons are actually necessary - I subst:ed Ether Nightmare at User:Dr ishmael/Sandbox, removed all the spaces, and it looks fine in both FF 2 and IE 6. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 14:16, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, are the 2 spaces that are at the left of the energy icon needed too? &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 15:51, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Go ahead and meddle with . -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 18:32, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, there is a draft..figures.. Done. When or how does a draft become final ? -- [[Image:merty_sign.gif]]-- ( talk ) 06:33, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
 * There's no formal process, but I'd like to incorporate more changes and do them all at once. Whenever we make a change of the template, a list of tasks gets generated for the server to perform, one task for each page that uses the template.  Change the template twice and we produce twice the number of tasks. If you feel this issue is really a big problem, I'll get an interim version finalized sooner (my attention has been busy focused on other stuff). -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 21:38, 16 May 2008 (UTC)


 * BTW, I currently don't see a difference the space makes. You can go to Ether Nightmare, hit edit, change the top to, and preview.  I'm also not sure what space you are complaining about.  -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 21:42, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It only shows up in IE (and maybe only version 6, I don't have 7), but it's the space between the Luxon icon and the &lt;br&gt; after it. Where the red underscore is below:


 * Spaces around the text "Kurzick"/"Luxon" and the space before the icon doesn't seem to matter, only one after the icon. I think it gets wrapped to a "virtual" newline below the icon, then the &lt;br&gt; kicks another newline for "Luxon". &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 22:12, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I could have sworn I fixed this weeks ago... &mdash;♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 23:43, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It's like this (also with IE7) : [[image:user_merty_dual_icon.gif]]. Removed spaces in draft en works like a charm. -- [[Image:merty_sign.gif]]-- ( talk ) 14:46, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

TOC redux
Please move it below the skill description. :( Thank you. &mdash; Poki#3, 23:47, 24 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Why do you want it moved back to that weird spot? )-: You didn't comment on the previous discussion after my explanation, so I though you accepted it as being fine. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 00:15, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No... If I go on a skill page the description is that interests me the most. Not the TOC. It looks really, really bad :( &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 13:06, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You can say that about every article though. Nobody is interested in TOC the most, but it helps people navigate the article.  I think it looks really, really bad in terms of inconsistency to have the TOC shoved in the middle of the first section of the article.  If you find the TOC useless, just collapse it, it'll remember your preferences.  -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 19:26, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * So having the description at the lower part of the box looks better? Having it next to the icon looks good, but next to the energy cost only looks good on paper. About collapsing: I find the TOC useful in just about every page except skill pages and I can't collapse it just for these pages. Depending on the number of skill trainers, skill pages aren't even that big. If I didn't know better I would be for removing the TOC entirely. If you don't want the ToC "shoved in the middle of the first section", how about removing the first section, and making "Acquisition" the first? &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 19:46, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm confused. Description isn't part of the box at all.  It's also not designed to be "next to" anything, any more than say Prince Rurik's "General" header is designed to be "next to" the "Classification" part of his infobox. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 19:54, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I honestly don't have any more ideas how to describe the fact that it looks bad. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 00:02, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I would second the opinion to remove the TOC, how many skill pages are long enough to warrant it? Can scroll down to the bottom in 2 seconds on about every page. --[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 00:18, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with that - skills pages only have Details, Acquisition, Notes, Related Skills/Articles, and maybe Trivia sections, and they generally take up less than 2 screens at 1280x1024 resolution (probably half of them are less than 1 screen, even). I don't see the need for a TOC on such short pages.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 01:34, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

cat issue
Pan changed the template to do something weird with categories and now monster skills are trying to be categorized as if they had they didn't have the no cats parameter. Whats up with this? &mdash;♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 04:08, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
 * He left out 'nocats' from the template processing entirely - everything that uses Skill box gets autocats now, unless they're in the Template namespace. That is what prompted me to do the  campaign - so that User namespace skills wouldn't show up in the "real" categories.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 06:02, 1 June 2008 (UTC)