Talk:Echo/Archive

Section 0
I don't have echo to check, but arcane echo was changed silently in a previous patch. Was echo changed in a similar manner? Fyren

Arcane echo had a variable effect time, that changed to 20 to make it simular to echo. now the only difference is Spell cost (15,5) Activation time (2,1) and Kind of skill that can be copied (skill,spell)

The other difference is that Arcane Echo will end prematurely if you use a non-spell skill, so if you used a stance or shout or anything other than a spell when it's activated, it'll end.

If you cast Echo after Glyph of Lesser Energy then you will capture Glyph of Lesser Energy and WASTE the Glyph you cast (i.e. Echo will be cast with lesser energy). So, you will never be able to use the glyph twice. Right? Alos, please leave the note about sustaining and hitting twice, they are two difference usages. --Karlos 03:01, 8 Aug 2005 (EST)
 * I think he meant cast echo, then glyph. Echo is replaced by the glyph and you still have the glyph up.  Cast expensive spell, cast the second glyph, cast another expensive spell.  --Fyren 03:28, 8 Aug 2005 (EST)
 * Capice! I put it back. --Karlos 03:35, 8 Aug 2005 (EST)

So is Echo replaced by _Skill_ or _Spell_? It says in article that "Echo is replaced with the next _skill_ you use." but then the example are Fire Storm, Maelstorm, etc... Whice are _Spells_.
 * Skill. Spells are skills.  --Fyren 06:13, 20 October 2005 (EST)
 * So what can't you copy with Echo?
 * You can copy everything. --Fyren 08:05, 23 October 2005 (EST)
 * Even stances?
 * Everything. Even signets of resurrection.  Not capture, though.  --Fyren 16:17, 29 October 2005 (EST)

Wow, what part of skill didn't you understand? Read the manual...

I'm not sure if it actually meant what I thought it did, but I removed a sentence that seemed to imply that you could Echo Oath Shot... which is also an elite. --Kiiron 07:34, 20 October 2005 (EST)
 * That wouldn't stop you from echoing it. --Fyren 08:05, 23 October 2005 (EST)
 * It would if you can't equip both at the same time. I suppose you could use Arcane Thievery on enemy Rangers and get lucky... --Kiiron 10:34, 23 October 2005 (EST)
 * Actually, you couldn't since Oath Shot isn't a spell...--Kiiron 10:36, 23 October 2005 (EST)
 * Arcane Mimicry. --Fyren 10:45, 23 October 2005 (EST)
 * Interesting... I always thought that skill inspired enemy elites, guess I never read it closely enough!--Kiiron 10:48, 23 October 2005 (EST)
 * Late to the party by six months, but you can also generally have two elites for a while by equipping one and then capturing a new one. Rare, but I've had as many as 6-7 elites equipped at one time. (Perdition Rock is a good place to see this happen, if you can kill a boss while you have six capture signets equipped!  Then it gets easier.)  --JoDiamonds 05:47, 1 March 2006 (CST)

Is Echo's recharge time 20 seconds of the copied skill duration + 30 seconds? Or is it 20 seconds + 10 seconds making a total of 30 seconds?
 * The former. --Fyren 14:44, 5 November 2005 (EST)
 * How would the times look when I use a +20% Enchantment staff? 24 seconds + 30? Or 24 + 26?
 * Or is it simply not affected by +20% Enchantment?
 * echo is an enchantment on self that "waits" for 20 seconds till your next skill while its acrtive (it can be removed by enmchantment removing, too). "enchantments last longer" just makes the "waiting time" of echo longer. The echoed skill will stay echoed 20 seconds no matter what.
 * if you have the echo enchantment on yourself and you use a skill the enchantment gets removed from self. If that skill got used without getting interrupted the echo skill becomes the used skill.
 * A skill cast with the echo enchantment on stays copied for 20 seconds (no matter what), after that echo recharges for 30 seconds. if the echo enchantment gets removed by enchantment removing the echo skill recharges for 30 seconds also (?). if the skill used after echo gets interrupted the echo skill recharges, too (interrupting 2 skills with one interrupt).--Ollj 16:14, 5 November 2005 (EST)


 * As soon as you cast echo or arcane echo, it starts recharging. If you never copy anything or the enchantment gets removed, the recharge timer just continues.  If you get interrupted while casting something with either up, the enchantment stays and you can still try to use it again.  If you do copy something, the recharge timer starts over after the copy goes away.
 * Back to anonymous' question, like Ollj said, it makes the enchantment on yourself last longer but the skill will stay copied 20s like always. The recharge stays the same as I just described.  --Fyren 16:50, 5 November 2005 (EST)

Does Echo also copy the user's current exhaustion status so that it is not successively decreased by the spell it is replaced with? I have heard something similar to this some time ago and would like confirmation. - Maestro Acheron 23:53, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
 * If it works anything like Arcane Echo (which I would assume it does), then it doesn't do anything to reduce exhaustion. echoing Meteor Shower and casting it twice will give you twice the exhaustion. --theeth 01:39, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I just tested it then, yep if you Echo a spell that gives exhaustion, when you cast the "echoed" version it also gives exhaustion.--Xasxas256 03:36, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

What's the comment on Nature Ritual mean?
I don't get its significance. Is that any different from other skills with long recharge? -PanSola 17:51, 2 March 2006 (CST)
 * Moreoever, how many times do you need to cast the exact same ritual twice over the course of 20 seconds, and know ahead of time that you want to do so? --130.58 18:00, 2 March 2006 (CST)

If the NR is interrupted, then Echo doesn't activate for that skill. The use would be where the NR is vital to the team, and it is expected to be destroyed before the skill has recharged.

Signet of Capture
I know for a fact you can echo a cap sig.

I was curious as if it could be done, and I used echo while on a cap run in perdition rock, as soon as the cap sig finished activating, echo turned into a cap sig. I, however, didn't get a change to go beyond that and cap anything with it as there were no skills in the vicinity or run left for me.


 * Well, amazing. Any recent confirmation? (I could easily imagine this got quietly changed at some point by ArenaNet.)
 * Also, what happens with that skill slot? Echo is supposed to turn back into Echo after a while, but Signet of Capture turns into the captured skill.
 * --JoDiamonds 02:28, 17 March 2006 (CST)
 * It'd be funny if you lose Echo permanantly and have to recapture it d-: -PanSola 05:33, 17 March 2006 (CST)
 * Seemed worth testing, tested last night, you can NOT echo a signet of capture. --Epinephrine 22:21, 17 March 2006 (CST)
 * I assume that Echo just stayed up, ignoring the fact that a skill had been triggered, and still echo'd the next skill used? (More or less how Arcane Echo works on non-spells.) --JoDiamonds 05:57, 18 March 2006 (CST)


 * Saying if it is true, if you capped a skill with an Echoed Signit of Capture, it deletes the purpose since you would have to by another Signet of Capture to get Echo back. :D

Skill line
I'm putting this on top because it needs doing soon. There is now a new skill type called Echo, tied to the Paragon profession. We probably have to move this to (skill). Kessel 06:19, 28 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I'm moveing this to teh bottom because most people assume the top contains the oldest stuff adn don't read them. I suggest leaving hte skill as-is, and only create an article for the skill type.  I HOPE Anet come to their senses and rename the skill type before the game comes out. - 07:40, 28 July 2006 (CDT)


 * What do you mean "come to their senses and rename the skill type before the game comes out." it makes perfect sence, Pan. A skill type works with sound based skills would naturally be called Echo. Me thinks if it wasn't a mesmer skill effected you wouldn't mind. --Jamie [[Image:Jamie.jpg|24px|(Talk Page)]] 07:50, 28 July 2006 (CDT)


 * That is correct. The Echo skill line works as finishing touches on Shouts and Chants. I would think that an entire skill line like Spell, Stance, Shout or Echo would definitely take precedence over a single skill called Echo - therefore, I move that this page be renamed Echo (skill) and the page Echo is constructed to cover this skill line. Kessel 08:28, 28 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I agree with Kessel, however I have made a page about the skill type over at Echo (skill type) while we wait for pages to be moved, and added a link to that page from here.--roofle 13:31, 29 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Um, fine, let me rephrase. I hope Anet come to their senses and either rename the skill type or rename the skill before the game comes out.  It's very annoying to have Tyria the World vs Tyria the continent, Cantha the continent vs Cantha the nation.  We don't need another name conflict.  This in and of itself has nothing to do with mesmer.
 * Regarding the preference for keepign the echo name for the skill and wanting the skill type renamed, my justification is that the skill explicitly repeats something, which ties in with the word Echo. The skill time merely is "related" to sound, even when you try to take the greatest common factor across the Harmonies, Finalies, and Refrains.  There are hundreds of words that are sound-related, I don't see natural about "a skill type works with sound based skills would naturally be called Echo".  If the skill type had only consisted of Refrains, then Echo might've been a good name for the skill type, but the skill type isn't only about Refrains.
 * If the skill adn the skill type are introduced at the same time, then I would probably be fine with whichever getting the name Echo and whichever gets renamed, since one is related to repeating and the other is just related to sound. However, considering skill is already part of the core game, whereas the skill type is just part of a preview, it seems much less of an issue to rename the skill type. - 13:49, 29 July 2006 (CDT)


 * "Yodel"? I'd make a Paragon the second Nightfall hits retail, if it gets the Yodel-ability. --Black Ark 14:05, 29 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I am not disputing that name duplicity sucks. I am disputing that a single skill deserves the main page and an entire type of skill needs the bracketing. As far as priorities go, a skill type should definitely take priority over a single skill, core or not. Of course, if the skill type is renamed for the final release this debate is moot. Kessel 02:53, 30 July 2006 (CDT)


 * And I do not dispute your position (even though my suggestion was the other way around, it's not a strong opinion). I only have a problem with Jamie's comments. d-: - 11:28, 30 July 2006 (CDT)


 * You didn't make your point clear enough for me to amount it to anything other than what I said. besides, it's not like Guild Wars doesn't have a tonne of name conflicts, there are literally 10s of them. so ANet doesn't have such a creative way with words sometimes... it's just our job to document all the foibles... --Jamie [[Image:Jamie.jpg|24px|(Talk Page)]] 05:44, 31 July 2006 (CDT)

So, the consensus is to move the content here to Echo (skill) and leave this page for the skill type Echo? Kessel 05:39, 1 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I would rather it be the other way around (as it is now). I took a look through various "skill type" pages and skills of matching type and the skills usually get more views.  This goes even for the newer types and is generally even further skewed towards the skill for older skills/types.  For example, every weapon spell but one has more views than Weapon Spell.  A few have significantly more views.  Enchantment Spell and Stance seem to be the only types with a lot of views.  (A lot of their skills are above and below in number of views but I'm too lazy to go through them all.)  --68.142.14.106 10:19, 1 August 2006 (CDT)
 * we need to come up with a way to hand this stuff, it's only going to get worse. what about using disambig pages like wikipedia? this article would be Echo (Skill), the line would be Echo (Skill Type), and this page, Echo, would be a disambig. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 10:39, 1 August 2006 (CDT)
 * WP uses disambiguation pages when it's not clear that one page or another gets a significant portion of the "hits" for the term. Most skills seem to have more views than any of the skill type articles.  Elite skills in particular have even more views than normal skills.  Unless someone has a compelling argument with a better analysis than just number of views, I'd say echo the skill should get the article with a one-liner disambiguation at the top to the type.  --68.142.14.106 10:58, 1 August 2006 (CDT)
 * I don't think we can follow WP on this. WP is an encyclopedia where for the most part no article can be said to be more important than the other. Boot polish is not more important than biplanes and so on. I also disagree with choosing which article gets the main page based on the number of hits it gets. As I see it, a skill always belongs to an entire line of skills of that type. Whirling Defenses is a Stance-type skill, sort of like lions and panthers are felines. Therefore it seems logical to me that we accord priorities to articles based on their clear hierachy within the bounds of the game. As such, Echo the skill should be accorded the bracketing while an entire line of skills encompassing things like Burning Finale and stuff be accorded the non-bracketed main article. Forgive me if I'm sounding pedantic about this. That said, if this sort of thing doesn't reach a resolution soon we're going to have trouble since ANet seems hellbent on duplicity (aggro circle = danger zone = goodness knows what else; compass range = radar range = uh huh). Therefore I second Sarah's suggestion for disambiguation pages. Kessel 05:35, 2 August 2006 (CDT)
 * GuildWiki is a reference resource. As such, I am more inclined to support the argument that whichever article gets used/viewed more should get the default name.  I don't care if WP happens to work the same way, or happens to work the opposite way.  I want to structure it so the maximum number of users can find what they are looking for in the minimal amount of time.  Thus, if skill articles are accessed an order or magnitude more often than skill type articles, then I would support the skill article using "Echo".  On that page of course there will be a link to "Echo (skill type)". - 11:24, 2 August 2006 (CDT)

Id say keep the skill named echo (unless you want to rename everything to 'skillname (skill)' or something along those lines. you plug a skill name into GW and expect the skill to come up. Since the Paragon profession is both the new source (and only one source)its simplier and eaiser to rename that instead of the skills.

I think that we should stick with consistent formatting for all skills. The new skill type should get a new page for itself and echo should retain its current page title. If you look at most current pages for skill types you'll find very little information. Personally I find the skill pages to have useful information and access them often, while most pages for skill types seem to simply be a clarification of in game material. Additionally there has already been some precident established for this situation. Refer to articles on "Attack" vs "Attack (skill type)" (proposed only at this time) and "Skill" vs "Skill (skill type)." There is no need to move around the exsisting setup for the echo page when a precident has already been set for skill types to have the "(skill type)" tag in their name. 68.235.19.117 17:41, 9 August 2006 (CDT)

I've removed the move tag since discussion seems to have ended without strong support for the move. --68.142.14.39 00:30, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
 * I removed the newly added move tags. Nothing has changed since the first time.  The short version is people weren't reading the skill type pages then and I really don't think that's changed.  Anyone who searches for "echo" is almost assuredly looking for the skill.  --Fyren 09:38, 16 February 2007 (CST)


 * Sorry, I checked talk:Echo (skill type) but forgot to check talk:Echo. -- Gordon Ecker 20:43, 16 February 2007 (CST)

SoC
can echo be used with Signet of Capture ? Shady 10:49, 9 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Read the article. --Fyren 16:48, 9 October 2006 (CDT)

whoeps, sorry. But why cant it be echoed? res signet can so why not sigent of capture. Shady 13:18, 10 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Obviously because you could get Elites for free. Echo -> SoC -> cancel SoC -> use Echo'ed SoC to capture. -- RolandOfGilead 10:08, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

Where do you get this in Nightfall?

I didnt know echo copied the adrenaline on attack skills. echo final thrust anyone?--Coloneh RIP 14:10, 6 January 2007 (CST)


 * Hmm, wouldn't it be like this: You use Echo, then use Final Thrust, lose all adrenaline and when the attack is finished you get a 0 Adrenaline Final Thrust, I believe. Jolla Himself 17:48, 13 January 2007 (CST)

Duration under Arcane
I added a note to the main page about the fact that an Arcane Echoed Echo with become the skill it copies for 30 seconds, even though the Arcane Echo will reset after 20 seconds. If the echoed Echo was not used it would revert in 20 seconds but once used the new skill stays on your bar for 30 seconds. I am not sure about the clarity of the wording, I am tired and not thinking straight at the moment, if anyone wants to check and approve/amend it I would be grateful. --Heurist 05:00, 18 January 2007 (CST)
 * pm with Envoytv suggested adding echo chain link in note to make it clear how this works. --Heurist 06:47, 18 January 2007 (CST)

I believe that Arcane Echo lasts for 30 seconds despite the skill description so the duration may not be affected at all by Echoing Arcane Echo/vice versa-see my comment on the Arcane Echo discussion page. Go defenestrate yourself. 17:29, 15 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Nope, I just checked, the Arcane Echoed skill only last for 20 seconds. My methodology: cast AE, cast any spell, as soon as spell is cast use Elemental Resistance (20 second recharge), the AEed spell will revert to AE at the same time that ER recharges. Therefore 20 seconds duration. --Heurist 15:14, 16 April 2007 (CDT)

Copies adrenaline
Well, if it copies the next skill that is used, and to get it to copy an adren skill you have to use it, and when you use an adren skill the adren goes to 0, and Echo copies the adren currently in the skill... this means that the Echoed skill will be at 0 adren. How do we know that it copies the adren, instead of starting out with 0 adren? I may be debating over semantics, but the note implies you can copy skills with an already full adren bar. Does anyone know of a way to do this? --Macros 20:59, 18 January 2007 (CST)
 * Not sure what the point was either. I removed that one note while trying to make the whole section more concise.  As far as I know, you can't do any 'better' than the echoed adrenal skill having one hit's worth of adrenaline as a result of the original skill hitting.  But if someone knows something, re-add it and clarify.  --Fyren 21:23, 18 January 2007 (CST)
 * Yeah, the notes definitely implied that I would get the skill with full adrenaline and ready to use. I just made a PvP W/Me and tested it, you get an empty skill and need to charge it. So that note needed to go. Should be not maybe note that it can echo attack skills? This may not be intuitively obvious to many. I will expand first note a bit, I just tested and it can echo Res Sig, which surprised me a bit :). --Heurist 03:19, 19 January 2007 (CST)
 * Test it with Dragon slash, it has a few strikes of addren after usage meaning you can test if it copies addren across or if it just copies the skill and not the skill "status"Darknight 10:00, 18 April 2007 (CDT)

Verification of interaction with Arcane Echo
"A skill echoed by an Echo copied using Arcane Echo or Arcane Mimicry will last the full 30 seconds of Echo, not the 20 seconds of Arcane Echo or Arcane Mimicry."

Can someone confirm? From my experience of solo trapping, I remember otherwise. --Silk Weaker 03:38, 19 January 2007 (CST)
 * I tested it using a trapping build and it does work that way, easy to check though: Arcane Echo, Echo, Dust Trap, Echo, Dust Trap, wait... 25 seconds later one Dust goes and Echo starts recharging, then 5 seconds after that the echo chained one goes and Arcane Echo starts recharging. It actually makes sense, Echo will be there for 20 seconds and then be replaced by Arcane Echo (or Mimicry) but if Echo is used the Echoed skill will be there for 30 seconds, Arcane will replace echo but not the Echoed skill. On a side note my testing showed that if you wait before casting the Arcane Echoed Echo you can have Arcane Echo replace Echo on your bar and still have the Echo Enchantment on you, however when you use a skill the enchantment vanishes and nothing else happens, this also makes sense: the enchant lasts 30 seconds but then can not copy the skill since its anchor Echo is not on your bar. --Heurist 04:01, 19 January 2007 (CST)


 * No, my point is that once you've casted Arcane Echo, the timer starts, and it doesn't matter if you cast Echo at a later time, Arcane Echo will still recert to Arcane Echo. --Silk Weaker 04:15, 19 January 2007 (CST)


 * yeah, but it does not revert the Echoed skill, Echo needs to do that :). Plus the Arcane Echo revert timer starts when you cast the spell (Echo), not Arcane Echo, the Arcane Echo Enchantment starts when you cast Arcane Echo. You can Cast Arcane Echo and then wait 19 seconds then cast a quick spell and still have it last another 20 seconds after that ending 39 seconds after you cast Arcane Echo, it will then be 61 seconds from start to finish of the sequence (2s cast, 19s wait, 20s echoed skill, 20s recharge) --Heurist 04:59, 19 January 2007 (CST)


 * Yes, that's true, so I guess it's not an issue if you use the spell right after Echo, but the notes could be clearer. --Silk Weaker 05:09, 19 January 2007 (CST)
 * Yep, see Talk:Echo I am not totally happy with the clarity of the note and would welcome suggestions on how to make it clearer it is a bit of a mind-bender :). --Heurist 05:30, 19 January 2007 (CST)

Elite status
I don't think we can accurately say that Echo is not an elite skill, since it does share the "one per bar" property of other elites, and is explicitly called an elite skill in its description, however it is alledgedly a very anamolaous elite skill. There are a number of things which need testing. -- Gordon Ecker 22:12, 19 February 2007 (CST)
 * Can Echo be put on the skill bar with another elite?
 * No.
 * Does Arcane Mimicry treat Echo as an elite?
 * Yes.
 * Does Price of Pride treat Echo as an elite?
 * Yes.
 * Does Signet of Capture treat Echo as an elite?
 * Unknown, probably.
 * Does Signet of Humility treat Echo as an elite?
 * Yes.
 * And apparently the latest note was just a really awkwardly phrased way of saying "if Echo copies a non-elite skill, that copy is not considered elite". -- Gordon Ecker 22:22, 19 February 2007 (CST)
 * I think it was just part of the vandalism. --Fyren 07:54, 20 February 2007 (CST)
 * I think SoC treats Echo as an elite, because I just captured it and it gave me the 5,000 XP bonus. -- DGCollard  11:05, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Echo says elite in the skill type and comes up as elite when sorting skills by elite status, meaning that it is considered an elite with SoC and other elite related skills. 99.99% sure of this.Darknight 10:03, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Good point :D -- DGCollard  10:42, 19 April 2007 (CDT)

Wait... I am so confused. Why would anyone say Echo is not an elite skill? What ARE its abnormalities? -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 11:19, 19 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 2 months ago the page was vandalised, someone said it wasn't an elite etc. Gordon was just disproving them &mdash; Skuld 11:21, 19 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Well Gordon acknowledged it being anamolaous ... -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 11:26, 19 April 2007 (CDT)


 * I said "alledgedly anomalous". Barrage's Glyph bug wasn't discovered until January, so it was plausible that someone may have discovered some wierd echo bug. -- Gordon Ecker 15:32, 19 April 2007 (CDT)

IT IS NOT A BUG!! GLYPHS ARE PREPARATIONS FOR SPELLS!! THEY USE THE SAME MECHANICS!!

Forms
Has anyone tried the chain: Arcane Mimicry (on an ally with Echo) -> Echo -> Form to get two copies of any elite form? My guess is that Anet would not allow this but I don't see any reason why it couldn't work. Think I'm going to try it tonite. --Franzwald 20:05, 20 February 2007 (CST)
 * Genius! It works. Not that it would have any practical purpose, I just wanted to see for myself and for anyone else out there who was wondering. Albeit also not as cool because you only have 20 seconds to cast the Echoed/mimicked copy (and therefore cannot maintain the form constantly), but still a good thing to know. :) --Franzwald 20:13, 20 February 2007 (CST)


 * Nice to know it does work, Echo is 30 seconds not 20 so it could almost double Avatar of Grenth duration (64 seconds instead of 34), with the other avatars it is less significant. It is however an additional 35 energy and 3 second set-up time for an extra 30 seconds. --Heurist
 * Could you not do Arcane Mimicry (on an ally with Echo) -> Arcane Echo -> Echo -> Form-> Echo -> Form .... to get THREE copies of any elite form? :D though it obviously wouldn't serve much use, other than to have 3 elite forms on your bar... lol... hmm... add in arcane thievery on an enemy with echo.... oh dear!
 * Yes, it does work but the two copied forms revert to quickly to make them really usable. Chaining like that would work much better on an Elite with a lower recharge time, i think D: --  DGCollard  06:43, 14 April 2007 (CDT)
 * As I recall Arcane Mimicry was changed to not work on Forms before Nightfall went live. It's certainly that way now if it wasn't the case back then, so don't even bother trying this. -Gildan Bladeborn 13:19, 17 May 2007 (CDT)
 * You don't understand what they are saying. You use Arcane Mimicry to copy Echo off of a friend's bar and then use Echo to duplicate the form.204.52.179.199 13:56, 17 May 2007 (CDT)

Trivia
"The icon of this skill is similar in appearance to the Necromancer skill Plague Touch." is that really trivia? Echo ftw 15:45, 19 April 2007 (CDT)

"Clarification"
I'm going to have to ask if it's the word "any" or the word "except" that's unclear. --Fyren 16:53, 6 May 2007 (CDT)