User talk:BrianG/N/D Mystic Blood Bonder/Archive 1

Thank you to Windjammer who helped me develop this build. It has not been fully tested yet. Any feedback or testing would be appreciated as I work on it and decide whether to submit it. Thanks! -- BrianG 12:52, 19 December 2006 (CST)
 * Thanks also to Karlos who suggested Mystic Healing which is a great addition to the build. -- BrianG 12:22, 22 December 2006 (CST)

Rate-a-build
''Please test and vote on. Please do not vote on a build until you have actually tested it.''

Favoured:
 * 1) Interesting idea indeed. I used to do a Blood/Healing Prayers build, and this looks like a significant improvement. Dervish enchantment loving goes very well with BiP, and I like how Mystic Regeneration allows you to spam blood bond. Edit: I don't like Signet of Pious nor Vital boon (When i'm running dedicated BiP i keep my health total as low as possible), so I'd replace those, but the foundations are solid. I'll stop to think more about it later. NightAngel 11:58, 26 December 2006 (CST)
 * 2) I think this is very good. I would however take out vital Boon and any points in Earth Prayers. Increasing your total health with Vital Boon is not cool. --Karlos 13:49, 26 December 2006 (CST)
 * 3) A nice new take on a BiP support character. I think a direct damage spell or two wouldn't hurt, but it's a solid build as is. BigAstro 02:31, 28 December 2006 (CST)
 * 4) I think its nice, and the soul reaping adds a whole new deapth to this kind of build.--TheDrifter 11:08, 28 December 2006 (CST)
 * 5) Looks great to me m8. If I find anything that will make it better, I'll let you know. =) — Jyro X [[Image:Darkgrin.jpg]] 15:44, 29 December 2006 (CST)
 * 6) Lovely idea for the BiP build. I'm not sure about those 10 points in Wind Prayers for that one power, if anything I'd switch that out, but it IS a unique twist. I like it! Isis In De Nile 11:17, 3 January 2007 (CST)

Unfavoured:
 * 1) Inferior to existing Battery build. Why even bother to heal, if you were put in the party for the monks, so they could heal? Existing build has greater damage output (the fact that it has damage output), excellent corpse control (Shadows of Fear, begone!). As you said yourself, your Health regen caps off at 10, so it's very much overkill in that department. Blood Bond is like a more complicated version of Recuperation, which you can just lay down and leave, and not have to maintain an entire build around it. Plus, there's a health boost in a BiP build. Why even bother? &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 12:22, 26 December 2006 (CST)
 * 2) I have to agree with Rapta here... The only time this is better than the existing Build:N/any BiP Necro build is when there are no corpses to exploit or when a MM works better in said area. Well of blood is less complicated and less time consuming than blood bonding everyone.  Plus blood bond is an enchantment, and with as much enchantment removal and shattering in high level pve areas, it's just not a great idea... about as bad as healing breeze in that respect.  You also have 2 superior runes, and I'm assuming to decrease the amount of health being sacced but that is also a very bad idea, mainly because it's going to take less hits to kill the necro.  --Lania Elderfire 02:31, 29 December 2006 (CST)
 * Lania, the Soul Reaping rune is completely optional, the points aren't needed, its just there to reduce health. I originally had it optional as (1-3), but people were concerned about Vital Boon's health boost, so I locked in the superior rune.  You're right though that depending on the area the enchantments could be problematic. -- BrianG 09:34, 29 December 2006 (CST)
 * THe best BiPs use five superior runes. But in that case i'd recommend monk secondary for prot spirit :)) Or a Protection Hero of course. NightAngel 07:12, 29 December 2006 (CST)
 * The build you're describing was voted unfavored a few months ago. See . BigAstro 11:03, 29 December 2006 (CST)
 * Small wonder, that build is horrible. Don't assume you know what I'm talking about because some noob put up a crappy build that resembles it eh? First, I don't really use 55 health, 105 is plenty. Second, I focus on staying the heck away from combat - life siphon and dark pact is ridiculous. Third, I focus on healing (heal party, extiguish and party-wide useful skills), with just enough prot to keep prot spirit up at all times (8 is enough). Fourth, I use cover enchantments such as vigorous spirit for further protection. Fifth, If your team lacks someone with a resurrection skill that works on low health, you can take armor changes to always remain above 75. Sixth, it does take a little skill, you don't tank, that's stupid (though if you know exactly what kind of foes there are in a specific region, it is possible). And it goes on and on. When I BiP, my party is always happy and satisfied with my work. :) At any rate, this is a different idea which also works very well. And the lack of protection spirit can be fixed with a hero. I don't recommend relying on actual people for it, it will get you killed :) NightAngel 11:11, 29 December 2006 (CST)
 * You provided a limited amount of information about your ideal battery build so I could not possibly draw any conclusions about you or your skill. You mentioned only two specific characteristics, 5 superior runes and prot spirit, and I was pointing out that a build that contains both of those characteristics was voted unfavored. That's really all, I wasn't implying you were a poor player. BigAstro 11:52, 29 December 2006 (CST)
 * Ok, maybe I was overly defensive too. Let me sum it up: when you use 5 superior runes, you don't tank (usually). The prot spirit is insurance, and a cover enchantment additional insurance. It shouldn't turn you into leeroy jenkins. :) One key advantage of this build, imho, is that mystic regeneration provides incredible resilience against hexes and conditions. Also, you take armor changes to adapt. Say you just got to Kanaxai's Chamber - you're not going to use a 105 health total! Switch back to max health and BiP carefully. NightAngel 11:57, 29 December 2006 (CST)
 * 1) -- SigmA  10:17, 23 February 2007 (CST)

Discussion
I like. Good synergy between Blood Bond and Mystic Regen. Personally, I'd probably switch some things out and use that optional for a few blood damage skills, but you have that mentioned already in the optionals area. Good job. BigAstro 14:06, 19 December 2006 (CST)
 * BigAstro, thanks for the feedback. I do agree that it would be nice to have at least one damage spell in there, so I tried to find something that was spammable and had synergy with the build but nothing stood out.  The best ideas I have are Vampiric Gaze or Blood of the Aggressor.  For now I've left a lot of optional ideas for the last slot but I'd like to narrow it down based on playtesting.  If you have a chance to test this, let me know if you have specific suggestions. :) -- BrianG 10:40, 20 December 2006 (CST)
 * Ooooooh, me likes. Would demonic flesh be handier here?  Larger health gain, but without the heal every twenty seconds.  I'm not sure.  But the basic idea of this is insanely powerful.  Six regen and 5-7 energy regen across the team.  Cyrogenic 12:07, 20 December 2006 (CST)
 * Also, what about life siphons rather than blood of renewal? Blood of renewal is attractive, but keeping it up all the time really doesn't help you at all when you have maximum health increased by enchants, as the sac would offset the heal.  Life siphons would surpass blood renewal after just one cast.  It also allows you to get effectively HIGHER regen if you actively siphon from foes, allowing even more bonds to be spread. (for the pve environment)Cyrogenic 12:11, 20 December 2006 (CST)
 * Cryogenic, you're right, Life Siphon fits well with the ideas in the build, and I've had it in the skillbar at one point, as well as Demonic Flesh. But in comparing Blood Renewal to Life Siphon, you're forgetting one thing.  Blood Renewal is an enchantment, so it counts towards Mystic Regeneration.  This effectively makes Blood Renewal the equivalent of 3 Life Siphons (+6 from renewal and +3 from Mystic).  These 2 enchantments alone provide +12 regeneration.  Also, the idea with the heal from Blood Renewal is that if you time it right, you can intentionally use the heal to offset the sac, rather than vice versa as you've mentioned.  Signet of Pious Light even lets you control this timing by intentionally ending an enchant.  Demonic Flesh, since it is an enchantment, also works great with Mystic Regeneration, but doesn't provide as high of a regen rate, and the large increase in health will greatly increase the sacrifice cost.  Life Siphon is mentioned for the optional slot, but Windjammer raised concerns that it might be difficult to manage casting Life Siphon on multiple foes since the build requires a lot of attention be paid to managing your own enchantments and health level, as well as your allies' energy and health.  I think this is a valid point, but am open-minded to Life Siphon if playtesting proves it is manageable. Do you have a PvE necro that you could use to help us test this build? -- BrianG 15:21, 20 December 2006 (CST)


 * This is very creative. I would toss in Mystic Healing instead of Signet of Lost Souls. As for offensive skills... In general, I am of the opinion that a BiP should stay behind the monks, not in front of them. Therefore, I am categorically opposed to BiP necros who have Life Siphon and Vampiric Gaze. That's just a recipe for disaster (a stray mesmer shattering your Blood Renewal or something). A BiP is best sitting in the back todding out party buffs (Orders, Heal Party, Extinguish, Mystic Healing) than being anywhere near the line of fire. The loss of a BiP midway through a tough fight can be crippling. Especially because party members become more careless with their energy management in the presence of a Bipper. --Karlos 05:06, 22 December 2006 (CST)
 * Hey Karlos, thanks for taking a look at it for me. I'm glad you did, because Mystic Healing is a sweet idea!  I have a habit of sticking closely to 3 attributes if possible, so I didn't look through Wind Prayers very well.  Do you think it is worth it with few points in Wind Prayers?  Or would you re-adjust the attributes, removing some from Soul Reaping?  There is no easy break-point to aim for with Mystic Healing, so let me know what you would recommend.  Pious Restoration and Dwayna's Touch look interesting as well if putting points into Wind.  I think you're right about the offensive skills, I've been thinking the same thing and they have slowly worked their way out of the build and into the optionals, but I might remove them there too.  I figure not only do you want to stay back out of danger, but you will probably have enough to do without having to scan for target foes.  How do you think the energy management would be without Signet of Lost Souls? -- BrianG 08:45, 22 December 2006 (CST)
 * Meh, maybe not Dwayna's Touch due to the touch range. It would make for a powerful self-heal, but I don't think thats needed. Pious Restoration looks like it would be more useful though, serving as a self heal and a hex remover, and it only needs Wind Prayers at 4 to clear 2 hexes.  But there would only be room for this if a Res Sig was not included.  I noticed you had Res in the original BiP build, would a BiPper be expected to bring a Res?  What I mean to say is, do you think it should it be placed in the skillbar rather than left as an optional? -- BrianG 10:46, 22 December 2006 (CST)

If you want to add skills that deal some damage whilst remaining on the back line, have you tried Order of Pain? Not sure about the Signet of Lost Souls here but it is useful for a little health and energy. I love the idead of the build I thinks its great, would work well with Dervishes on the frontline who are using Mystic Regen as well, I have found this when using a Bonder with a Warrior/Dervish Tank in Sorrows Furnace. Ajax Baby Eater 10:58, 22 December 2006 (CST)
 * Yeah I did consider Order of Pain, but the main problem is that due to its short duration, it will end up on top of your other enchantments, which will complicate the Signet of Pious Light combo. Considering this build could probably run almost as well as a primary Dervish though, Order of Pain would be great on a dervish variant due to the Mysticism bonus. -- BrianG 11:30, 22 December 2006 (CST)
 * I did wonder myself if this would work as a Dervish Primary, would limit your max blood magic to 12 but having Mysticism may solve some energy issues if you are using short duration enchantments. Ajax Baby Eater 12:55, 22 December 2006 (CST)
 * I agree, the only real difference is the loss of the superior blood rune, in trade for slightly better energy management. I think its pretty even, but since the important skills are blood I'm thinking its the better choice, but barely.  I'll add a note about this to the page. -- BrianG 14:28, 22 December 2006 (CST)
 * Feel free to consider orders spells. Barring energy problems, orders are GREAT with the signet, because the signet removes only your copy of the orders - everyone else keeps theirs. At least, that was the case when I was a dervish and another necro in the party was casting Order of Pain. Order of Pain and Dark Fury don't do you any good anyway, you might as well use them with the signet for a free self-heal. I'm unsure of the effect of this on Order of Apostasy. Skyreal 09:45, 24 December 2006 (CST)
 * Using the signet will definitely only remove your instance of Orders, all other party members will retain theirs. That's a really clever idea too, good thinking. BigAstro 12:26, 24 December 2006 (CST)
 * Ahhhh sweet. Thanks guys, I did not really think about that thoroughly.  I will add it to the variants.  Depending on testing I may move it to the main bar.  Not sure what I would take out though.  I really like how flexible this build is turning out to be. -- BrianG 12:09, 26 December 2006 (CST)

Unstub
BrianG, why don't you throw this in untested? Several people have expressed their approval of the concept already and it would likely get more exposure there to come to final consensus about skill selection. Of course, if you want to keep it as stub then by all means do, but I don't like see good builds sit in the stub cat when they should be on their way to the vetted section :-) BigAstro 11:08, 22 December 2006 (CST)
 * BigAstro, I think you're right. My main hesitation is that I haven't actually tested the build myself, I'm going to be leveling up a necro over christmas holidays. I'm just making some adjustments now though to implement Karlos suggestions, and I think the build will be good enough to put to untested at that point.  I can always finish testing it while others test it too. -- BrianG 11:27, 22 December 2006 (CST)
 * Okay, changes have been made and I've unstubbed it now. If anyone has a PvE necro please help me test this as it may take me a few weeks before I'm ready to test it properly. -- BrianG 12:22, 22 December 2006 (CST)

Attribute Points
It was easier than I thought it would be to spread the attributes to Wind Prayers, as I realized I did not need Blood Magic at 16. I've arbitrarily chosen to make Earth Prayers, Wind Prayers and Soul Reaping fairly even, but this is might need to be adjusted based on actual testing. I'm not sure what the energy management will be like. If anyone has suggestions for these attributes please let me know. -- BrianG 12:22, 22 December 2006 (CST)

Hey Brian, I was testing the build right now with my necro, and it is pretty effective. I took a hero monk to keep prot spirit on me, and it worked very well, I always had +10 health regen even spamming blood bond and with hexes/conditions on me. And with so many enchantments covering the prot spirit I felt very safe and could actually tank any group I encountered. And I came to the exact conclusion on attributes you did: Earth is fine at 8 for the +3 on mystic regen, while wind prayers benefits from more pts. NightAngel 19:35, 26 December 2006 (CST)
 * NightAngel, thanks for the feedback based on your testing, thats exactly what I'm looking for. You mentioned in your vote that you weren't a fan of Vital Boon/Signet of Pious Light.  That combo is designed to provide health after sacrificing, and I feel like the large heal provided would more than make up for the extra sacrifice cost from the small health increase.  However, I'm open to other skills, I just can't seem to find other enchantments with significant duration and synergy to replace Vital Boon.  Can you let me know what enchantment(s) you are using in its place to fuel Mystic Regen?  Thanks! -- BrianG 20:46, 26 December 2006 (CST)

Yes, I was thinking the same thing. I searched earth, wind and.. not fire, but blood, and didn't come up with much. That mysticism enchant that never wears off I tried (doesn't trigger on sacrifice, only on damage). Or the Intimidating Aura, which stays for 72 secs (with 20% enchant mod) since you never actually hit ppl. I'm not entirely pleased with any choice yet. There are like 2-3 slots I have no idea what to use. I'll keep trying stuff. NightAngel 22:14, 26 December 2006 (CST)

Response to Rapta's Vote
Rapta, the whole concept of the build is that Blood Bond's degen is subtracted from your regen before the +10 cap (as stated in the description). So for example, assuming you had 5 enchantments on you, Mystic Regeneration would supply +15 regeneration, and you would have +6 from Blood Renewal, for a total of +21. This would allow you to maintain Blood Bond on 5 allies, and still have +6 regeneration left over for yourself. I'd much rather have +5 regeneration on allies who need it, rather than the +3 regen across the whole team that Recuperation supplies. Plus, Recuperation is stationary, expensive, and requires 12 points in Restoration to achieve the +3. I don't think its a fair comparison. Please clarify your comments regarding the regen being overkill, as it currently seems like it is based on a misunderstanding of how the build works. In order for your regen to be "overkilled", you would need to have enough enchantments on you to provide enough regen to Blood Bond your whole team and still have more than +10 regen left for yourself, which seems unlikely. If your vote is based on a misunderstanding of how the build works, please reconsider or strike it out, thanks.  As for your feedback regarding the need for healing abilities, they may be valid. The idea is that you may be able to substitute for a second monk, but this is still yet to be determined based on playtesting. Do you have any experience playing a BiP build? Karlos, who created the existing BiP build and has experience playing one, suggested adding Mystic Healing instead of offensive skills, indicating that the ideal place for a BiPper would be behind the monk/casters, and that offensive skills would draw you into range of enemies unneccessarily (feel free to review his comments in the discussion above). As for your comments regarding Corpse Control, Well of Blood is listed in the variants if you feel it is needed depending on the mission. -- BrianG 13:22, 26 December 2006 (CST)


 * Rapta doesn't strike out his own votes. Other people's votes, yes. NightAngel 13:23, 26 December 2006 (CST)


 * No personal attacks, please. Entropy 13:27, 26 December 2006 (CST)


 * This one is a proven fact, and I can supply ample evidence if needed. In fact, in a recent argument in his own talk page, Rapta has claimed he has the right to do so. NightAngel 15:10, 26 December 2006 (CST)
 * Hah, if only you knew how wrong you are about that. At least I'm not the one Wikistalking people. =) &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 15:22, 26 December 2006 (CST)
 * Either way, that becomes a personal attack. That is an issue over and done with, and I'd suggest you not refer to an issue which doesn't even involve the likes of you. In short, it's none of your business, and is strictly between Karlos and I.
 * On the issue of Blood Bond, the point I was trying to get across was, Blood Bond's regeneration is usually not needed in PvE groups. I've played BiP many times, and have found the core purpose of just spamming BiP, casting Well Spells and Consume Corpse, and a few damage spells is all that's needed to be a good Battery. And with Blood Bond not necessary needed, the additional point in Health Regen become rather pointless. The role of the Battery can be summed up quite easily, as Spam BiP and BR, make wells, and do damage. It's much more trivial a role than this build seems to make it. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 15:22, 26 December 2006 (CST)
 * "I'd suggest you not refer to an issue which doesn't even involve the likes of you". And I'm the attacking one? Right. And it did involve me at any rate. As for your BiP, why on earth do you use blood ritual too is a mystery, and my Bips always help heal or protect. NightAngel 15:26, 26 December 2006 (CST)
 * Well, you do use a Promise nuker, so in your case, it would be special. And it's regardless of who was attacking. It's an issue revolving around Karlos and I right now. No BiP ever really bothers to help or protect. Plus, BR and BiP both work well - BiP healers, and BR when saccing 33% of your health isn't necessary. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 15:55, 26 December 2006 (CST)
 * Correction. No *bad* BiP bothers with healing or protection. :) At any rate, I'm not in the mood to turn this poor fella's build into another battleground. You gave your vote, for whatever reason, which is your right, and all I can do is hope more people see it and give it a little recognition. NightAngel 19:56, 26 December 2006 (CST)

Rapta, just stop it. You're being a hypocrite, and this is issue is over with. You're the only one that voted unfavorable, just deal with it and stop being a baby about it.--TheDrifter 11:10, 28 December 2006 (CST)
 * Please, explain. Of course, you're the one popping into entirely uninvited into a conversation, not involving you, and calling people babies. Yes, I voted Unfavored, and I reserve the right to reply to people responding to my vote. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 20:17, 11 January 2007 (CST)
 * Hey guys, this seems more personal than build related, so if you want to continue, please take it to a user page. I have no issue with the unfavored votes, they were given along with some rational criticisms.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion. -- BrianG 21:50, 11 January 2007 (CST)

The math on Vital Boon
With 2 superior runes and no rune of vigor, the difference in sacrifice cost for Blood is Power when enchanted with Vital Boon is an increase of about 24 health. Considering the regeneration you are getting from Mystic Regeneration, this doesn't seem like a huge concern. Furthermore, Vital Boon's healing effect when ended, combined with Signet of Pious Light, allows you to self heal yourself for over 200. This means you could Blood is Power twice and immediately regain the lost health. This seems like a reasonable trade-off to me, but if people are still concerned about the health gain from Vital Boon they can always add an additional Superior Rune (Curses or Death Magic) and that will cancel out the health boost. -- BrianG 09:49, 29 December 2006 (CST)

Awaken teh Blood?
Weird ass build but I think Awaken the Blood might be beneficial to it...an enchantment that also puts Blood Bond up to +7 regen, at the expense of a ~50% BiP sac. 74.245.59.224 21:40, 5 January 2007 (CST)
 * Well, the increased sacrifice is the reason it is not in the build, but honestly if you were careful and out of danger it might work, it would have to be tested. I'll take "weird ass build" as a compliment though. ;) == BrianG 23:18, 6 January 2007 (CST)
 * Tested out Awaken the Blood in place of Vital Boon. It worked but I didn't prefer it to Vital Boon.  The sacrifice cost was not really a problem as far as not dying, but the main issue is that it slows down the speed that you can BiP at, because you have to wait longer between casts.  Also, in order to benefit from the +2, Blood Magic had to be raised from 14 to 16, meaning I had to steal several points from Soul Reaping and Wind Prayers.  Didn't seem worth it to me, but it would be personal preference. -- BrianG 16:35, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

Updated Skill Bar
Tested this out a bit in FoW this weekend, and I was happy with how it worked. I was usually able to BiP the entire team easily. I found Signet of Pious Light was a bit too complicated to use effectively, so I switched it to Dwayna's Touch for a faster, stronger, and more reliable self heal. Vital Boon is now the only questionable skill in the bar, but its not that bad. The increased health didn't make too much difference, but the large heal every 20 seconds was useful. I'd still like to switch this to a longer lasting enchantment with more synergy but there isn't really one. I'm going to be buying new armor and testing out Undertaker's Insignias this week. With Undertaker's insignias I might feel more comfortable trying Awaken the Blood (as suggested above) in place of Vital Boon. -- BrianG 13:19, 26 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Haven't tried Awaken yet, but I don't think I'd be comfortable saccing 50% life... anyway, how about Death Nova? 5 energy, instant recharge, lasts for 30 seconds and poisons for 15 seconds regardless of Death Magic level. Longer lasting than Vital Boon, and it helps neuter whatever charged through the back line to kill you. Meh, and Death Nova's damage is armor-ignoring... if you knock 1 or 2 off Wind Prayers it could add even more usefulness. Tain 15:18, 26 March 2007 (CDT)
 * I was kind of surprised, but with +10 health regen, at the very back of the party, and dwayna's touch at hand, I felt pretty comfortable saccing 66% from 2 BiPs in a row. And thats with Radiant, not Undertakers.  With Undertakers insignias I'd feel even safer.  So I think 50% sac is manageable, I'm just not sure if the benefit is worth the cost.  Worth a try at least, considering its duration.  I did consider Death Nova (looked at every Necro and Dervish enchantment, haha), but it only has an effect if you die, and also the cast time is kind of long at 2 seconds.  If you just want a long lasting enchant without much benefit, I'd recommend Faithful Intervention, as it will last forever as long as you don't take damage, and if it ends, it will heal you for 30 health.  If it was not in Mysticism, it would be perfect. -- BrianG 16:40, 26 March 2007 (CDT)

Replaced Vital Boon
I've finally decided on a replacement for Vital Boon. I realized that all it was really being used for was as an extra enchantment, so decided to go for something that would last longer and provide more useful utility. Aura of Thorns seems perfect for this and is something I had considered early on, but for some reason discarded too hastily. More experience playing this build has shown me the usefulness of having a skill to assist with kiting in case melee aggro makes it to the backlines. You can also use this to assist monks or other casters in kiting if you notice they have attracted aggro. I think this is the last update I will be making as I think the build is optimal now. If anyone has any feedback please let me know. -- BrianG 12:45, 30 March 2007 (CDT)