Talk:Insignia

word usage
This was removed on 28 May, and now we've already had the first edit regarding plurals. If lots happen it might be worth putting it back in. Biscuits 23:43, 31 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah. -- Gordon Ecker 00:39, 1 June 2007 (CDT)

Campaign
should we list which campaign some of the insignia is from? Because I didn't even realize that Earthbound Insignia must be nightfall because I don't have it in my PvP window. I'm not sure if thats why. I'm not quite sure what I'm supposed to have and not have for what reasons suddenly lol.&mdash; JediRogue  21:36, 4 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Common and core profession insignia drop in all campaigns and the Realms of the Gods. Factions profession insignia drop only in Factions, NF insignia only in NF, etc. This was in the update notes, iirc. - B e X or  [[Image:Bexor.png]] 00:56, 5 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I've never gotten Earthbound insignia before I got nightfall. It was unavailable in PvP and I never ID'd it in PvE. Today, after I just bought NF, I identified it from Naga Trappings. So I'm not sure if you will on ID stuff you have campaign access to or what. But I definitely think this article should say what insignia are only available after you get which campaign. Because even if you never came across it through identification, you should be able to see it in PvP window and unavailable. But not if you don't have the campaign. &mdash; ♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 18:54, 26 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I just got an Earthbound insignia in Factions, I'm not sure if it's unlockable for non-Nightfall accounts in PvP after the update which made Insignia universal, but it wasn't unlockable back when Nightfall was released. -- Gordon Ecker 15:48, 1 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Has it been considered yet that some of the insignias have to be unlocked before PvP use? :l   GD  16:16, 1 July 2007 (CDT)
 * No, it would list them as locked. They were not listed at all. And it was post insignia update. &mdash; ♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 16:23, 1 July 2007 (CDT)

Lieutenant's Insignia
What is and is not affected by the damage penalty? -- Gordon Ecker 01:16, 5 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm thinking that the base dmg of the weapon, just like with Flurry. Didn't anyone conduct a test on that still? &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 06:17, 5 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Did a quick test, nothing up to the standards needed to make it offical but....at 12 sword, using a max sword without a +xx% inscription (used +5e) I tested with "wild blow" to see what the crits would be. With Lieutenants it was 40, without 42. I would assume it works the same way the overall damage boost works with weapon mastery (i.e. 12 mastery=100% 14=107% 16=115%). And that with the Lt. Insignia it is 12=95% 14=102% 16=110%. I would read the page on damage calc as well as Ensigns damage treatise for more info on the weapon mastery damage to get a clearer idea. I would test further but I am quite busy right now. But initially it does seem to be only on the base damage, and well worth the -5% for 20% reduction of hexes. Must use this more often.--Zev 15:39, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I thought that weapon mastery over the req just added crit chance, not flat extra damage --Gimmethegepgun 15:41, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Each rank of weapon mastery increases martial weapon damage and every character level increases spellcasting weapon damage. For martial weapons, there's also a soft level-based cap (rank 12 at level 20), beyond which there are diminishing returns. At level 20 with 12 weapon mastery vs. an AL 60 target, a weapon does the listed damage, every rank increase below 12 is equivalent to a 5 armor increase on your target, and every rank increase beyond 12 is equivalent to a 2 armor decrease on your target due to diminishing returns. See damage calculation and Damage Rating progression or details. -- Gordon Ecker 19:26, 27 August 2007 (CDT)

Global
The stat changes are in blue. Does this mean that the effects are global and cant be stacked? &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:68.49.211.171 (contribs).
 * What? All insignia work only on the piece they are attacked to, and non stacking effects have that noted in their description. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 14:45, 6 June 2007 (CDT)
 * For Insignia, armor rating modifiers and the damage reduction on Knight's insignia are local. Everything else is global and stacking unless the description specifically says non-stacking, in which case it is global and non-stacking. -- Gordon Ecker 21:13, 6 June 2007 (CDT)
 * This should be more clearly stated inthe article. The way it's worded leaves room for doubt as to whether the Knights mod is local.

Unfair :-p
Heh, I dislike the way Eles get better insignia than Rangers. For four slots, Rangers can get +15 AL to all elemental damage. For the same four slots, Eles can get +50 AL to all elemental damage... Rubbish ^^ 82.46.19.11 20:11, 8 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Except insignias only apply to the part they are put on, and rangers already get a free +30 vs elemental. --Macros 20:12, 8 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Heh, really? I only play a Ranger secondary, so didn't notice. And yeah, just discovered the "only the part they're on" rule. Damn you're quick :-p 82.46.19.11 20:14, 8 June 2007 (CDT)

Confusion
how are people supposed to know what a previous amour type was, that is now given by insignia? e.g. "Scar Pattern amour", from PvXwiki, links here. Now that means radiant insignias, but for someone else, how are they supposed to know when they see it mentioned in an outdated article?--203.129.46.5 02:12, 9 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Change the outdated article or check this article history. - B e X or  [[Image:Bexor.png]] 02:28, 9 June 2007 (CDT)

Nightstalker's Insignia
I have one of these in my inventory (salvaged) and see it in the list here, but when I go to the Rune Trader in our Guild Hall (Wizard's Isle) it is not in the list. Does anyone else see this same behavior? --  Glamtre  (Contribs) 18:23, 12 June 2007 (CDT)
 * EVERY trader operates on items he bought from other players. The Insignia where just bought out. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 19:28, 12 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Thanks, I knew about the supply/demand aspect but I just assumed (so you know what happened) that they would not ever run-out, but only have the price go way up. That said, any idea what happens to the selling price of an item if it is out of stock?  Does it slowly creep up until someone sells or does it sit at the price of the last sell? --  Glamtre  [[Image:Axe-icon-right.png]] (Contribs) 19:25, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * The price must not shoot way up I'm thinking. I was looking for a Rit rune of minor spawning the other day and the trader was sold out.  I checked back the next day and they were available, but the price was not that high.  I'm guessing the prices of insignia operate in a similar fashion. Shadowlance 19:49, 26 September 2007 (CDT)

Head Gear
Can insignia be applied to head gear? Because I remember that in pre-insignia Prophecies, there was a Knight's headgear that gave +1 Strength and the -3 Phys. dmg. However, I don't remember any spellcaster headgear with extra energy.
 * Yes, they can. --Kale Ironfist 09:53, 25 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Only on some professions, not sure which. 65.95.56.212 18:26, 26 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Any headgear crafted recently in Factions or Prophecies comes with no Insignia, so you can add one. Collector armor will say whether or not it can have an Insignia on it. Older headgear was updated to have a Radiant insignia or something like that, so it should also be changeable. I don't know what you mean by "only on some professions", since it worked for all of my characters and I have one for every Profession... [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 18:30, 26 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah, in the last update before the release of Nightfall they added +1 energy to all max non-Warrior Prophecies and Factions headgear, prior to that update, caster and Assassin headgear only had attribute bonuses, and Ranger headgear only had attribute bonuses and +30 armor vs. elemental damage. After the May 24th, 2007 update, all headgear except for festival hats and max collector headgear accepts Insignia. -- Gordon Ecker 19:11, 26 June 2007 (CDT)

insignia-rune
Can you put an insignia on the same armor piece as a rune?-- B A N D I T D A  18:41, 17 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Yes. -- Gordon Ecker 19:23, 17 July 2007 (CDT)

Druid's armor
I don't know who made druid's armor redirect here, but I was redirected from another page to this one mentioning "druid's armor or equivalent gear" and there's absolutely NOTHING on this page indicating what druid's armor does, or used to do. Can someone add in that information, so that I don't have to create a ranger, get to droknar's forge, and then see what they're talking about? And that's IF druid's gear hasn't changed there as well. A little backwards compatibility isn't much to ask for. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.30.156.96 (contribs).
 * The redirect has been fixed to point to the appropriate section of list of old armor prefix names. The bonus on old Druid's armor corresponds to the bonus on Radiant insignia. -- Gordon Ecker 20:14, 18 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I've altered all the old non-profession-specific bonus name redirects. The profession-specfiic bonus redirects are unaltered, as the profession-specific Insignia names are identical or nearly identical to the old prefix names. -- Gordon Ecker 20:36, 18 July 2007 (CDT)

Scout's Insignia
I guess they mean "While under the effects of a Preperation"? Blaze 13:37, 22 July 2007 (CDT)

I was just arguing with a friend when the armor bonus is activated. he said it would only last for the 2 seconds you use a preparation, which wouldnt make sense in my opinion 0_o can someone please confirm that it lasts for the whole duration of a preparation?--Klossi 19:04, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

I'm also puzzled by this, I think they changed the wording on that too. Wasn't the description exactly like what Blaze said? 81.214.147.107 12:13, 27 July 2007 (CDT)


 * It seems that it works as you thought. I can't really get screen shots of the difference, but the damage dealt to me while I had a Preparation up was lower than when it wasn't up. --Curse You 19:19, 21 September 2007 (CDT)

Scar Pattern armor
Why in Grenth's name does 'scar pattern armor' redirect here? http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Scar_Pattern_Armor#Common

Shouldn't it link to the ACTUAL armor?24.58.210.63 16:50, 22 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Scar Pattern Armor was the page describing the +energy properties of the armor (As you can see in this revision). That's why it redirects here. For the actual armor see Necromancer Scar Pattern armor. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 17:16, 22 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I've changed it to point to list of old armor prefix names, since the Insignia article doesn't list the old names. -- Gordon Ecker 19:49, 22 July 2007 (CDT)

Knight's Insignia
Does the effects from a knight's insignia stack? ~ Zama 17:25, 25 July 2007 (CDT)
 * The effects of Knight's Insignia are local, so they can't stack with eachother. For example Knight's Insignia on a helmet only reduces damage from hits to the head. The effects of Knight's Insignia will stack with other sources of damage reduction, such as Runes of Absorption or the Shielding Hands Enchantment. -- Gordon Ecker 17:32, 25 July 2007 (CDT)

Alphabetized
I alphabetized the listing of the insignia within each class. zcollier 17:36, 2 August 2007 (CDT)

Short description added
I've added brief description about usind Insignias and Runes on single piece of armor and also note of armor name change. Aerial Starlight 08:04, 1 August 2007 (CDT)

Stonefist and knockdowns from other sources
Do stonefist insignia works with, say, Spike Trap or Meteor on a W/R or W/E?
 * Yes, but if you really plan on using those sorts of combos, I LOL@u. ~ Zamanee [[Image:Zealot's Fire.jpg|19px]] (contribs) 15:09, 13 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Consider combining with Thunderclap and a warrior wielding a lightning weapon.Carrierkid14:20, 9 April 2007


 * Better off with a Shortbow then, and no Stonefist. E/R Thunderbow can knocklock for a nice 20 seconds, easily. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 18:20, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Likely that he meant a team build, with a separate warrior and ele, a warrior could only knockdown maybe twice with that combo--Powersurge360 18:24, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Prismatic Insignia?
Can you get 2 benifits of the prismatic insignia if you meet both requirments? I might make my pryo into a part air mage if so.... Ravien Coromana 06:42, 13 August 2007 (CDT)
 * For each elemental attribute you meet, you will gain +5 armor for that location. --Kale Ironfist 06:49, 13 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Awesome. I might make my elemental mixup after all. ^_^ Ravien Coromana 07:00, 13 August 2007 (CDT)

And also, if you put 2 of this insignia onto your armor, do you get double bonus then? In this case +10 armor for each req. --AlpHaz 10:27, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
 * No, that's not how armor works --Gimmethegepgun 10:38, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah, each armor piece has a single Insignia "slot" and a single Rune "slot", adding a second Insignia will overwrite the first Insignia, and adding a second Rune will overwrite the first Rune. -- Gordon Ecker 15:09, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I thought he was asking it in a cumulative way, but whatever, either way that's not how armor works --Gimmethegepgun 15:10, 31 August 2007 (CDT)

Radiant/Survivor Insignia
Does it matter where these are located? If you place it on the chest, do you get +15h/+3e and if you only place it on the hands you get +5h/+1e? Or is it combined, with Survivor giving +40h total (+15 Chest, +10 Legs, +5 hands, head, Shoes)?


 * Chest gives 15/3, hands, boots and head give 5/1, and legs give 10/2. It stacks, so full survivors gives +40, yes. And full radiant gives 8 energy. --[[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (s)talkpage 16:43, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Herald's Insignia
Anyone see any use for this? other than flag runners?-- (Talk) (Contr.) 21:35, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Rit with item spell? Lord of all tyria 21:36, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Minion Master
Can someone explain to me how the minion master insignia works? Does it stack for each minion you have? Or is it just +5? Bartelby 20:52, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * If you have 1 minion, you get 65 armor. if you have 3 minions, you have 70 armor, and with 5 or more minions, you have 75 armor. --[[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (s)talkpage 20:54, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok thanks, I thought that was how it worked. Im blonde so that's my excuse for being dumb. =D Bartelby 12:59, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Sentinel's Insignia
Colour me blonde too, but does the benefit from this insignia scale with increasing strength attribute, providing +20AL at 13 strength, or does the strength requirement mean that it provides no additional AL benefit if the strength attribute is <13 ? I don't always truck around with str that high, so I'm trying to figure if it'd be better to go with dreadnought instead :) BramStoker 00:57, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It's +20 if you're at 13 or more, none if you don't meet it --Gimmethegepgun 01:34, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Paragon Insiginas
Ummm.... there is only one? I'm sure I've seen a sentry's insignia or something thats not listed here.... does this article need updating or am I mistaken? The Black Leach 05:57, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Paragons only get one unique Insignia, and that is Centurion's. The "Sentry" insignia is not profession specific and gives +10 armor while in a Stance. (T/C) 06:24, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

D'oh! The Black Leach 08:45, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

'''how does this work? do you have +40 armor if you have 4 shouts on you or do you have +10 armor if you have 4 shouts on you plz explain'''
 * Just the +10 RT | Talk  16:42, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

ok thx

The Centurion's Insignia stacks. So if you have five Centurion's Insignias on you, you will get +50 armor when you have a shout, echo, or chant on you, which should be near 100% of the time if you're doing it right. With the Paragon's base +80 AL, +50 from 5 Centurion's, +16 from a shield, and +5 from a weapon, the Paragon can potentially have 151 AL before you factor in things like Save Yourselves!. With an Insignia like that, Paragons don't NEED any others. --evilsofa 23:25, 17 July 2009 (UTC)


 * No, that is not how the insigna work, each insigna only adds armor to the armor piece it's attached to, so with 5 Centurion's insignia, the paragon will have 90 AL on every piece while under a shout or chant, with one insignia, he will have 90 on that piece, and 80 on the rest. Mr J 23:40, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Bloodstained insignia
Its been noted down the bottom that its only been sighted on purp/gold. I've seen it on blue. So that may need a change
 * Probably too late to ask for a screenshot? That would've been most helpful... -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 01:58, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I also saw it on blue (about a week ago), but forgot to get a screenshot. -Blaster 68.142.57.142 23:31, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Lazy!
Looks like they got lazy with the nightfall professions.... -User:Canderouss
 * Actually, I'd almost say the opposite. They seem to put more thought into the newer insignia than some of the older insignia, taking into account how players decide which insignia to choose.  Well...players who actually choose insignia rather than going with "ooh, survivor insignia makes my health be a big number, and big numbers are good, right?"--Carmine 00:27, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I was talking about the fact that there are much less insignias for paragons and dervished compared to monks or elementalistsCanderouss 08:14, 3 January 2008 (UTC)Canderouss
 * that's what happens when you get to the third game in a series. the production schedule was less then a year, and they had to push it out. nightfall is a much lighter game, content wise, then factions, and tiny compared to prophecies. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 08:17, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Uh? Proph > NF > Factions, factions has the least content.
 * No, factions has 6 profession insignias, and nightfall has 3. 69.111.85.151 01:24, 5 February 2008 (UTC)Canderouss
 * That has nothing to do with how much content is in the game... --Gimmethegepgun 01:43, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Tormentor's Insignia
Could someone please explain how this is useful? Description says it INCREASES holy damage you receive?? Brankoz 18:53, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm sure it's a typo and it's ment to decrece RT | Talk  18:58, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * no, no it gives armour +10 (instead of the usual +5) so provides a debuff because of that <font color="Blue">RT </B>| <font color="Black">Talk</B>  18:58, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Most insignia give +10 armor with a basic conditional that you expect to fulfill (you choose insignia based on that condition). Tormentor's insignia give an unconditional +10 armor, which is an impressive bonus: no need to rely on enchants, type of damage, being hexed, having minions, or so on.  The drawback is that holy damage is increased.  Holy damage is rare enough that it's a worthwhile insignia, but when you do come across holy damage, keep in mind that's a hefty increase, if there are holy damage spammers about.--Carmine 19:29, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Stonefist is a bit misleading
Note that Stonefist says is increases knockdown by 1 second, maximum of 3. But, if the knockdown would last more than 3 seconds, no additional knockdown is added. For instance, Backbreaker lasts for 4 seconds, so Stonefist does nothing. Tested on battle islands. Susan 17:27, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That is correct, though I'm not sure what is misleading about "maximum of 3". Stonefist Insignia cannot increase knockdown duration over 3 seconds; the knockdown duration from Backbreaker is not provided by Stonefist. --[[Image:Scottie_bow.jpg|19px]]  Scottie_theNerd  (argue)  15:37, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You discovered America. It's been like that... oh, since Prophecies came out? <.< &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 13:56, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * the misleading part is 'increases by 1, maximum 3' implies that you can't INCREASE by more than 3, not that there is a cap of 3. So, there is no point in having more than 2 stonefists equipped.
 * There wouldn't be anyway, these things don't stack. Avalance 14:53, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * That's the misleading part, to some it might seem that they can stack. All depends on how you read it. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  15:10, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I suppose technically they might stack, but since knockdowns are 2 seconds by default, having more than one Stonefist would have no effect. --[[Image:Scottie_bow.jpg|19px]]  Scottie_theNerd  (argue)  07:04, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Most knockdowns are at 2 seconds with rare exceptions. This is very significant for the majority of them. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gorbachev116 (contribs).

+armor bonuses
There is one thing that I don't understand, those that give a +X armor bonus, its global bonus? or just for that piece? If I have AL 60 and I add a insigia that gives +10 will I have 70? or 70 only on the piece where the insigia is? &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.243.78.94 (contribs).
 * The armor bonus from an insignia only apply to the piece it is attached to - this is mentioned under "Notes" at the bottom of the article. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 23:12, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * so to clarify, the +10 insignia will be most effective on a chest or leg armor piece because that is where you will most likely be hit. Am I right? 75.155.112.20 16:28, 18 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  16:33, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Prismatic Insignia
How does this work with the new Master of Magic? --98.194.241.104 03:00, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You gain all the armor bonuses, because you meet all the requirements. See the Notes on Master of Magic. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  04:33, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Lieutenant's Insignia armor penalty
Does anyone know off the top of their head if the -20 armor penalty is global, or just on the armor piece the insignia is attached to? - insidious  420  04:02, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It's local, see GWW:Lieutenant's Insignia. I've updated our article to state this information.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 04:07, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Useful Info
After running a few calculations i got this:
 * See in edit view for it to make proper sense, I have no idea how to make a table but perhaps data such as this should be included on the page in a table. This really shows that unless facing armor ignoring dmg armor insignia (ones that have the requirement fulfilled) are better than survivor. a few of the 25% AP column have imperfect rounding but all values listed are fairly accurate. - Rabus 23:23, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Good stuff - thanks for posting that. I've often deliberated on certain weapons if I would be better served by a mod "of fortitude" versus a mod "of defense".  From your table it appears that in most general situations, "of defense" (+5 armor) is of more value.  However "of fortitude" (+30 HP) would be better if facing armor ignoring damage or degeneration.  Shadowlance 00:40, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Here ya go. Remember: when in doubt, copy from somewhere else :) --Gimmethegepgun 00:52, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Stalwart's Vs. Knight's Insignia
Which would reduce physical damage more? The +10 armor against physical damage from Stalwart's or the -3 physical damage received from Knight's? --84.30.68.180 21:24, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Stalwart's reduces damage by 1/8th, or 12.5%, while Knights reduces damage taken by 3. Since a warrior has +20 armor versus physical already, that cuts the amount of listed damage in half inherently. A Stalwart-wearing warrior will have an extra 12.5%, for a total of 62.5% listed damage reduction, or 37.5 damage taken, while a Knight would have 50% damage -3. If the damage packets are higher than 24 listed damage, then Stalwart's will reduce more damage. If are lower than 24 listed damage, then Knights will reduce more damage. Arcdash 12:37, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Minion Master Insignia
Ok i know that if u got one minion master insignia then ur armor can stack up to +15. so if i have say... 2 minion master insignias does that mean i can get up to +30armor?
 * No, armor bonuses from insignias are local, not global. It only affects the region of the body that the armor piece is on. So your armor will never exceed +15. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 22:59, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Do Bloodstained insignias speed up Aura of The Litch since it can create minions without corpses?-- Ikimono "My beard is thick."  13:40, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
 * No. A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 14:28, 10 July 2009 (UTC)