Talk:Gate of Madness (mission)/Archive 1

Plz read this before u want to edit the article :

Guys, to be honest, killing shiro is easy and safe if u get all the blessing(it would be easier if u pull shino out of the gate). No specific build & skills(eg. ward, ss, sv, mesmer skills, knockdown etc) is needed/essential (even no wildblow is ok), so plz dun add more suggestion/tips on killing shiro that is not really really helpful.

There's a lot of suggestiones in the "Tips for Defeating Shiro" now, some players are very confused by that and dun able to decide which skills/heros/henchman should they bring. I know u guys r very kind and like to provide some help to the players, but plz conider my words before u want to modify this entry. Hokit 22:21, 20 December 2006 (CST)


 * I agree on the most, but you must take into consideration who is giving this advices, like an example, me. I post only truth and possibles, and have the pictures to prove it and also the titles. So please if you have any questions about my postings, find me in the game as Lck King I can email you the JPG's of the quest's and posting I modify.--A.Burgos LCK 02:48, 11 January 2007 (CST)

You know what you can do, put a monk at the corner on the left hand side of the temple door on the outside, and bring 2 or so warriors. Then when Shiro attacks the monk the warriors will surround him and trap him, and when he tries to switch target after the monk dies, he won't be able to move to the target and will just spam battle scars/Impossible odds, allowing your team to wand him to death. Of course, it won't work until he's on low health and using Impossible odds, as he has riposting shadows before that time. I did it solely by accident twice with hench+heroes, The first time he riposting shadows out, but the second time he was on low enough health, he was then wanded to death. 220.240.69.209 01:52, 24 December 2006 (CST)

A good strategy is to have 2 A/R critical rangers with Favorable Winds and Disrupting Accuracy and Way of the Assassin, Critical Eye and Needling Shot and have them both needling shiro when hes below 50% health since he will use Impossible Odds under 50% health and will maximaze the chance of interruption. -- Superman5311 - December 19th, 2006, 19:05EST

GOD DAMN THIS MISSION IS SO HARD

Spoil victor does work wonders =) When doing this mission, forget echo/ss......go echo/spoil victor O_0 works well even as you're going through the mission. Blood well spam also works great since there's tons of corpses.

I find it a little unfair that the only way to beat Shiro now is to use Spoil Victor. He is far too powerful and every one is struggling. Personally, I have got him down to 10% health with Master of Whispers as Spoil Victor/blood while 30% health with Master of Whispers Spiteful Spirit, reckless haste and price of failure. Not only that, but Impossible Odds can also be combined with Battle Scars, as Impossible Odds is only a skill, not a stance. So it IS possible to hench this mission, but you'd have to get lucky and hope that most of your hench don't crowd together and get slaughtered. Also, Wild Blow for battle scars will help. Darkobra


 * This is not truth, shiro can be beaten without spoil victor.--A.Burgos LCK 02:48, 11 January 2007 (CST)

I fixed the note on the bonus - you actually have to capture the shrines, a la AB, not kill the Margonites there. Shido 17:30, 4 November 2006 (CST) Also, they'll come uncapped after an amount of time. Shido 02:00, 6 November 2006 (CST)
 * After they become neutral, you can go and recapture the shrines to refresh your Gods' blessings, should the fight go on for more than 20 minutes (as it often does for me). This is especially useful if your tank as acquired DP because the blessings - particularly those regarding armor and health - can make a difference during that last 10% of Shiro's health. Skyreal 08:42, 11 November 2006 (CST)

Another possible help would be Norgu with Psychic Distraction and Signet interrupts as his only skills. Robotic interrupts ftw. Shido 02:00, 6 November 2006 (CST)
 * I've also totally destroyed this mission with a geomancer tank build. With Stoneflesh Aura, Armor of Earth, Stone Striker, Mantra of Earth, and Ward Against Melee, I took ZERO damage from both bosses' normal attacks, with the only damage coming in being lifestealing from Battle Scars. Shido 20:03, 17 November 2006 (CST)


 * I used a hench mesmer to beat the mission, Norgu would be a fine adition, but it will take the spot tha tyou could use on a good monk of a good warrior (which if you runned him properly and with good stances can be key on the mess)--A.Burgos LCK 02:48, 11 January 2007 (CST)

Easily done with bots, and without specific skills. You can see all the strategy I used in this screenshot (Sorry for the italian text) --Mercurio 09:24, 14 November 2006 (CST)

By the way I altered the reading of the lich begin weak vs fire... I know for a fact he is as an experienced fire ele (13months +) I can see quite cleary how much damage I'm actually doing. and how much of a percentile of my hard hits actually do. shiro has 110AL vs fire damage... (Effectively only taking 56dmg from a 112 metor 50% reduction)The lich himself only has 50al Vs fire damage taking approximatly 25% MORE damage than is specificed on my skillbar. (My flares hit him for 70 when they only deal 56 and metors 140) Another note about the liches skills I have screenshots of all his skills (The two of them) but I don't know howto make a template for them and I can't upload images as the server is transfering. ''Hunger of the lich: (5energy 3/4cast) Attack (monster only) If this attack hits target foe it removes one enchantment. if an Enchantment is removed gain 100health and 5energy.'' Also Life vortex: (5Energy 2cast 10recharge) Skill (Monster only) Steal up to 200 health from each foe within 30feet Yes it actually says "feet" although I have no clue as to how far that is in game measurement.
 * Thanks for the info on Lich skills, I'll try and put those up as soon as possible and add them to the article. I also modified the section about the fight with Shiro, where it says he as all the skills he did in the last mission in Factions, I don't believe that's true as I've yet to see him use Meditation of the Reaper, nor Echoing Banishment yet. --waywrong 03:30, 18 November 2006 (CST)

About solo with hero + henchman
Make use of Spiteful Spirit to reduce Shino's damage on your tank, this mission can be done with hero + henchman(no matter your profession), here is the team setup

1) 1 Warrior Tank(u better use a hero as I dunno Devona can take this role or not) Skills : endure pain，watch yourself，wind blow，boynett's defense and some weapon attack skills.


 * Devona cant take it, she dont have the skills to survive 2 seconds with Battle Scars. Sever Artery and Gash Work nice on Shiro, and make him waste time getting rid of them.--A.Burgos LCK 03:11, 11 January 2007 (CST)

Attribute : weapon 12 or higher, strength 9 or higher, tactics 9 or higher
 * If the proper runes are used on your heroe, the attribute points should be higher than this making the job easier.--A.Burgos LCK 03:11, 11 January 2007 (CST)

2) 1 MM (must brings SS)

Skills : Blood of master, animating bone fiend, animating shatter bones, Spiteful spirit(disable), Signet of lost souls, etc Attribute : dead 12 or higher, 9 soup reaping, curse 9 or higher


 * I doubt that this mission can be made with more than 1 mm. Minions do not obey commands and they attack without anything around. Shiro will fight them and possible go down in health to the point of start using Meditation before all the shrines are taken.

3) Searing flame Ele(must bring fireball)

4) 2 x Monks henchman(If you the monk, then bring healing seed and healing breeze to keep the tank alive)

5) Mesmer henchman

6) any caster/range attack npc u like

Way to kill Shino

1) the whole team go inside to pull Shino outside the gate(Shino only!! No lich!!)

2) flag your npc outsude the gate

3) only the tank is allowed to stay close to Shino

4) enable SS of the necro and disable any other non-signet skill of the necro so that he have enough en to spam SS on Shino.

5) disable searing flame of the ele coz impossible odds will make your tank get burned.

5) keep call target on shino

6) you will see your warrior's HP always > 70% when Shino is suffered from SS

7) If you want some fun then disable SS to see how impossible odds kill your tank


 * This part is not signed I seriously doubt that shiro can be pulled away from the Lich, i tried sveral times to do this and did not work, so please sign your post and tell me how you did that? I will like to know how accurate this information is.--A.Burgos LCK 03:11, 11 January 2007 (CST)


 * How does SS reduce the damage on your tank? --waywrong 03:29, 22 November 2006 (CST)


 * I have no idea why but I have use this team setup to kill him > 15 times. And I have tried to disable the SS then the tank got killed quickly.(You can try yourself) I wonder if the behavour of Shino's AI is changed a bit when suffered from SS so that his acts strange and then he reduce his attack frequency or tends not to use some great damage skills. Hokit 05:07, 22 November 2006 (CST)


 * I just tested this, I see no visible difference to the amount of damage that Shiro is causing, whether he has SS on him or not. This may be because I had protective spirit on me while Shiro was beating on me, but there is pretty much no way for me to test this without protective spirit as Shiro will beat me to a pulp within 5 seconds with or without SS.  I tried doing it with Healing Hands, but he owns me through Healing Hands too -_-;. --waywrong 09:34, 23 November 2006 (CST)


 * Waywrong, I have a few questions about your testing. 1) Were you the tank? 2) Could you tell me your team setup?
 * According to my experience in last night, a real player tank + 2 hero/henchman monks are very enough to tank Shino(assuming without more monks, pagaron, SS Necro) but a hero tank + 2 hero/henchman monks(assuming without more monks, pagaron, SS Necro) may not able to tank, in the later case, you will see the monk running out of en easily(even with blood ritual) then the hero tank may be killed by impossible odds sometimes. Hokit 21:30, 23 November 2006 (CST)
 * I tested it as a ranger stance tank, Lightning Reflexes, Whirling Defense, Escape, Interrupts, because my warrior is not at gate of madness yet. My team set up was dunkoro (prot/heal: healing hands), master of whispers (Blood/Curses:spiteful spirit), and zhed (fire:searing flames).  My henchmen I belive were mhenlo, khim, cynn and herta.  I tried this multiple times...if you pull back into the very corner of the shrine of lyssa, shiro will de-aggro, if any of you want to do this experiment.  I died twice before there was too much DP to handle, and I see no noticable decrease in his attack speed from when he is hexed with SS, or another hexes for that matter...I brought empathy, parasitic bond, and price of failure. --waywrong 06:54, 29 November 2006 (CST)
 * Forget my build then. Hokit 02:05, 1 December 2006 (CST)

Hey, who is the one that added "For those looking to beat this mission with henchmen and heroes, consider bringing 1 monk hero specalized in Healing Prayers, 2 monk henchmen, a necromancer hero with Spiteful Spirit, an elementalist hero specalized in Fire Magic, the dervish henchman, someone equipped with wild strike/blow, and an 8th person with some damage or support skills. " to the article page?? Can the writer tell us more about this build?(eg, how to use, anything we need to aware) How many time have he used this build before??? And I wonder if the 3 hero slots are used(1 monk, 1 necro & 1 ele), is the editor expecting my ritualist/mesmer char or my monk/necro/ele hero to bring wild blow/strike??? Hokit 21:46, 23 November 2006 (CST)
 * I added that, but it was because someone tacked it on there without adhereing to the template of the page, it was ugly, so I kind of summarized it into one paragraph, check the history... --waywrong 06:54, 29 November 2006 (CST)

There is no way that Spiteful Spirit reduces Shiro's damage. UNLESS on the off chance that you mean by killing Shiro faster, you'll take less damage in the long run. Even then, Spoil Victor is far more efficient in destroying Shiro than Spiteful Spirit. If you have that, take it. For a warrior that uses a sword or axe, Vigorous Spirit will work nicely with Healing Seed to make them survive just that little bit longer. You will also need strict damage from outside sources, as Spoil Victor WILL NOT finish off Shiro. 2 monks are a must, 3 is a preference. I prefer a nice combo of one good healing monk, a blood ritual/spoil victor necro and a protection monk with aegis. Darkobra

I henched it with the following setup: The only major problem was Madness Titans, which will tear right through the heroes, henchmen and minions. You also need to be careful about pulling the patrols. This setup can probably be adapted for a Paragon, I'm not sure if it'll work for other professions. -- Gordon Ecker 06:03, 29 November 2006 (CST)
 * Ritualist (16 communing, 13 spawning): Lightbringer's Gaze (rank 2), Shelter, Union, Signet of Creation, Displacement, Ritual Lord, Boon of Creation, Resurrection Chant
 * Koss (12 tactics, 9 strength, 9 swordsmanship): Wild Blow (disabled except vs Shiro), "Watch Yourself!", Riposte, Shields Up (didn't help much), Gladiator's Defense, Soldier's Defense, Dolyak Signet, Resurrection Chant
 * Master of Whispers (16 death, 12 blood): Spoil Victor, Animate Shambling Horror, Animate Vampiric Horror, Animate Bone Fiend, Taste of Pain, Blood of the Master, Blood Ritual, Resurrection Chant
 * Zhed Shadowhoof (12 fire, 10 inspiration, 8 energy storage): Fire Attunement, Hex Eater Signet, Drain Enchantment, Glyph of Lesser Energy, Meteor Shower, Searing Flames, Glowing Gaze, Resurrection Signet
 * Mhenlo
 * Kihm
 * Eve
 * Odurra

Hi guys, it seems that this mission is updated some days or weeks ago such that the enchanment received from the gods are changed.(before updated u have to /kneel to reveive the blessing, but now u have to capture) When I played this mission the day after the release of nightfall, the enchanments received are not helpful. But now the enchanment are very helpful(eg. + armor peneration, hp regen + 1), with these enchanemnts on your team Shiro cannot kill u easily, so killing shino is a lot easier now. I killed him easily without SS, SV, Ward, Price of Failure yesterday. I think we dun need to design a build to kill him now. The only thing u need is a MM to tank Shino when u wait for the blessing. Hokit 22:07, 3 December 2006 (CST)

I second Hokit's post. I just henched it last night. My outlay was nothing special didn't put too much thought into it. As long as you have a tank or two, a MM for diversions, an interrupter and some healing/protection it should be OK: Chilling Victory, Twin Moon Sweep, Pious Assault, Avatar of Balthazar, Heart of Holy Flame, Flame Trap, Apply Poison, Lightbringer's Gaze Wild Blow, Sever Artery, Galrath Slash, Final Thrust, "Watch Yourself!", Symbol of Wrath, Signet of Judgment, Resurrect Faintheartedness, Envenom Enchantments, Enfeebling Blood, Soul Feast, Animate Bone Fiend, Animate Bone Horror, Animate Flesh Golem, Death Nova Reversal of Fortune, Shield of Absorption, Protective Spirit, Mend Ailment, Mark of Protection, Smite Hex, Banish, Resurrect I was stupid enough to go ignore the advice given and try to kill Shiro first. Bad move and almost got wiped twice, each time when his health got low. Wised up and went straight for the Lich and completely ignored Shiro. As the article says, he doesn't do much damage to anyone until he's low on health. Captured all shrines. Killing all the Margonites reduced my DP, then ran back out to take out the leftover demons and Shiro'ken to reduce it further. Went back to kill Shiro with myself on 7% DP and main tank Koss on 20% DP. Even with that DP, all the bonuses from the shrines meant killing Shiro was a breeze. No deaths. Strongly recommend doing the bonus to make this mission easier. 203.17.238.253 20:33, 5 December 2006 (CST)
 * Player (D/R) Scythe/Mysticism/Wilderness
 * Koss (W/Mo) Sword/Tactics/Smite
 * Master of Whispers (N) Death/Curses
 * Tahlkora (Mo) Protection/Divine/Smite
 * Mhenlo
 * Cynn
 * Devona
 * Odurra
 * I know dude there are so many around that like to post crap that make no sence and give advices based on imagination, it is bad that they make you waste your time. The blessings are obviously the fastes way to go.--A.Burgos LCK 03:11, 11 January 2007 (CST)

Bonus
I believe article is wrong stating that you have to hold the shrines when Shiro dies to get the bonus. Quest menu (L button) listed the bonus as completed once I capped all the shrines. When I killed Shiro (Lich was killed in the very beginning) some of them already turned red and some turned neutral. Still, I got the bonus resulting in Masters reward.
 * I also noticed the same thing Lania Elderfire 10:44, 22 November 2006 (CST)
 * Yes, I can confirm this also, I'm going to change the note in the article back. --waywrong 09:36, 23 November 2006 (CST)

I think you need at least 3 shrines for expert. I'm pretty sure the message said I captured 2 and I only got normal reward. Surreality 20:44, 3 December 2006 (CST)

Blackout?
The article states that skill disabling skills such as Blackout do not work. Can someone confirm this? I just beat Shiro with hero/hench and took Norgu with echo+blackout. Seemed like it was working ok for me (he used the skills less often). Of course, I also had SV, so maybe I just imagined it...
 * I'm pretty sure none of Shiro's skills cost energy to use, especially not the really evil two Battle Scars and Impossible Odds. --waywrong 19:52, 30 November 2006 (CST)


 * It doesnt work at all, has been tested several times. Check Shiro page and you will see that his skills are signets. I also tried to interupt, slow and disable his signets, did not work --A.Burgos LCK 03:11, 11 January 2007 (CST)

First post, hope i dont break anything
On the Prophecies page of Hell's Precipes its there probably on the Factions one too.

Shoudnt there be a spoiler warning on top of this page seeing as its untill you get the the gate and then at the hill that you find out that shiro and lich are also here in this game and that they are the ones that you have to defeat.

Wanderlust
I know the page say that no knockdown skills work on Shiro, but has anyone tried Wanderlust? Technically, its not the skill knocking him down, its the spirit. I would try, but I don't have a rit or a friend with a rit there. If it doesn't work, I suggest changing the statement to say that Shiro cannot be knocked down, to avoid any confusion. Break The Seal 19:11, 4 December 2006 (CST)

Wanderlust uses a skill called wanderlust whenever it "attacks", just like every other spirit that attacks, so I doubt this would work. --Notskorn 03:55, 10 December 2006 (CST)

For a Critical Defenses assassin, Critical Strike and Moebius Strike at Critical Strikes 13+ (and Shiro < 50% health, which is easy) are better than using Way of the Assassin. Shido 16:12, 16 December 2006 (CST)

It depends on the role you give your assassin : for inflicting damage, certainly. But Way of the Assassin warrants that Critical Defenses will always stay active. Without it, you're just taking chances, especially if the assassin you're using is a Hero, for whom you will be hard pressed controlling mana use ; and if it fails just when Shiro is in frenzy, the assassin is dead. In my opinion, the assassin is not there to kill Shiro (even if every bit helps), but to pin him down by giving him some (harsh) meat to grind. Shiro will just kill himself in time with any of the proper hexes.80.156.46.119 08:39, 2 February 2007 (CST)

Why Lich First?
I've done this mission on 2 characters, beaten it on the first try for both. And what I did was pull Shiro first. Shiro is MUCH easier to pull solo, and when he's dead the Lich is a sitting duck. Took about 30 minutes, because we didn't have an SV Necro. But afterward we pulled the Lich, stood behind the wall and nuked him. Took about 5 minutes. From what the article says, it seems it advises you fighting them both at once. I can't understand why. -- Macros† ( talk / contribs ) 09:58, 20 December 2006 (CST)


 * Because the Lich is extremely easy to kill, and Shiro does minimal damage when he's at full health. After the Lich is dead, you go capture all the shrines to get Master's (with Shiro chasing you, being little more than a nuisance), then you kill Shiro.  I didn't have any problems until *after* I captured the shrines, and then only because I wasn't properly prepared to handle Shiro.
 * I dunno, it's probably just as easy either way, but I personally had no problems killing the Lich first. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] (talk|contribs) 10:50, 20 December 2006 (CST)
 * How in hell did you make Shiro to leave the lich???? he refuses to leave him everytime that I tried it.--A.Burgos LCK 03:11, 11 January 2007 (CST)

Is it possible to disable Shiro skills?
Using Simple Thievery or something similar? 75.35.5.62 02:10, 28 December 2006 (CST)
 * No, people have tested with Blackout and he has used skills within seconds after doing so. I also believe that was mentioned in the article...he has a 400% recharge rate or something. - [[Image:Smoke_Trap.jpg|19px]] Entice789  (Talk | Contributions) 22:14, 8 January 2007 (CST)

The Lich Is very weak to water
I added that the Lich is weak to water. I used Shatterstone on him and it did 346 damage a cast (173 + 173, 3 seconds after hex). Water tears him apart. I always thought he had high armor against fire. You sure someone wasn't using winter?
 * The lich being weak to fire is well known since prophecies (Hell's Precipice). Good find though. --8765 19:27, 5 January 2007 (CST)

Masters with Heroes and henchmen
I have written a guide to beating this mission with masters with Heroes/Henchmen. Link is here User:Entice789/Gate of Madness guide if you care =)  -  Entice789  (Talk | Contributions) 00:55, 9 January 2007 (CST)

Necro bar
Take this on Olias:

Or if Necro'ing yourself, take SV and put PD on a Mesmer Hero. No Impossible Odds = easy battle. &mdash; Rapta   (talk|contribs) 17:30, 12 January 2007 (CST)
 * I hope the interupts are for margs, torment creatures, etc., and not for shiro. Good positioning is all you need to defeat shiro. --8765 20:12, 18 January 2007 (CST)
 * Can someone explain how this build = No impossible odds? -- Alperuzi 06:50, 30 January 2007 (CST)

Blessing of the 5 Gods
Is there a page that shows the blessings the god things give you? just curious. -Thefez
 * How about Blessings? :D Perhaps that should be linked in the article.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] (talk|contribs) 00:37, 16 January 2007 (CST)
 * Saving the sarcasm, I just did the mission and it seemed like it was 2 blessings per Avatar (I think). The list you are providing has all the blessings which is much more than provided in the mission.  I believe that the top two blessings for each Avatar are the ones used though. --RabiesTurtle 15:21, 7 February 2007 (CST)

Babysitting Shiro
You may easily park/babysit Shiro with a warrior spamming and a healing monk. I placed Koss' flag at the door and set Koss to "Fight". Then I pulled Shiro and let Koss take him over. I placed Tahlkoras flag near Koss, so that she was able to heal Koss but didn't take any damage from Shiro. Once Koss, Tahlkora and Shiro are set up this way, the remaining party may go away since a single monk will outheal Shiro's damage forever (while Shiro is at full health). The remaining six people are now free to kill the Lich and capture the five shrines without any pressure.

For killing Shiro: we used two necromancer heroes using and, Shiro died within seconds (I didn't watch the clock, but the fight took less than 10 seconds after we set Olias and the Master of Whispers from "Passive" to "Fight"). --Lje 12:21, 28 January 2007 (CST)

Shiro again
Do not feel disheartened if you do not have any of the suggested skills supposedly required to kill Shiro. Shiro can be beaten by any competent team using sound tactics. The one I suggested (battling at the door) works well. Once Shiro is at less than 30% damage (not that difficult to achieve), he'll just stay where he is, which should very likely be the doorstep. The only things you now need are:
 * a really good tank (many professions can achieve that), which mostly mean any way to avoid attacks. Stances, Spells, anything goes, as long as you can ensure that you can maintain this for a long time. The Critical Assassin (which I suggested too) is only one of many ways to go. This tank purpose is to sustain Shiro's attacks. He'll be backed with the group healers. In the several successful attempts I made, Shiro is just unable to drop the tank's bar below 60%.
 * some good hexes (there are tons around, and Spiteful Spirit is only one of many) that make good use of Shiro amazing attack rate when he is in his impossible odds stance. Actually, even if you don't have this, plain patience and a good old poison or hex degen will eventually win the fight.
 * patience: yes, if you don't have any hex like Spitefull Spirit which deals damage to Shiro everytime he attacks, the fight will be long. Still, it won't be very dangerous.

And if you feel you're losing your grasp on the fight, don't be shy : run away... Better have another try than be dead.

Also note that Shiro has no means of healing himself except normal recovery and battle scars. This means that hit and run tactics can succeed where anything else fails. In particular, this means that if you break the fight at any point, you're not losing much unless you wait ages before reengaging. I experienced this the last time I tried, my assassin arriving at Shiro with -60%... got dead some more time against Shiro, and I had to break the fight several times, but that tactic nevertheless worked well. 80.156.46.119 04:43, 5 February 2007 (CST)

Just a different perspective... Bringing my third character through -- a warrior. My first was my ranger; second my necro. Both other times I took out Shiro first -- not really that hard either time. Then got the blessings and finally took out the Lich. This time, I went for the Lich. While I and two others pounded away to little avail on the Lich, Shiro proceeded to destroy the rest of the party. Shiro just ignored everyone else and killed all three monks in like 45 seconds. As I was trying to pull everyone back, Shiro finished off Olias and almost got Zed. The Lich was still about 33% health AND yes I was using a fire ele. I tried rez but quickly gave up as Shiro ignored me and simply killed whoever was rezzed. Maybe I just got lucky my other two times through. Again, just a different perspective. I just hate getting that far and now have to do it again.

Diversion ?
Has anyone tried Diversion on Shiro? Strictly speaking, this is not a disabling skill, it lengthens recycle times, and his skills do have recycle times. I'm guessing he's immune to it, too. But if not, it would substantially reduce his use of Battle Scars and Impossible Odds, right? Perko 02:42, 14 February 2007 (CST)