GuildWiki:Wikia staff noticeboard/Resolved2

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Special:Editcount
The stats are all wacked. It used to track all my contributions. Now the stats don't make sense even if I assume it only reflects "stats of the past month". -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 23:05, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Mine still work. I had ~9900 before and after the new WikiaStats was introduced. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 23:38, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Editcount says I only have 426 total edits, whereas WikiaStats say 9k+... -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 01:44, 19 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Works fine for me too... Well, when I check my editcount, that is. Yours is indeed borked (Special:Editcount/PanSola). Also look at the "All Wikis" thingy. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  18:47, 20 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I've reported the issue ... someone should be able to take a look at it soon. --KyleH (talk) 23:12, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure if this is a related error, but the edits shown from Special:Editcount any my Special:Preferences is different by more than 1,000 edits. (T/C) 17:46, 27 September 2008 (UTC)


 * My editcount in Prefs shows 3k spot-on. Nothing on Special:Editcount matches that. So, yeah. Weird. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  21:16, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Special:Editcount says I have ~18,000, with the most in any one namespace being ~6,500 in Main, while Special:Preferences says I only have ~11,000 total. Definitely confusing.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 22:12, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps Editcount includes deleted revisions but preferences does not? 208.44.247.101 01:03, 30 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Special:Contributions/HANSAEWOO = 0 edits
 * Special:DeletedContributions/HANSAEWOO = 2 edits
 * Special:Editcount/HANSAEWOO = 0 edits
 * Good idea, but doesn't look like it. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 02:32, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Just a btw, only sysops can see deleted revisions. --Shadowcrest  02:37, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * This looks like it is resolved now. Does it look good to you now too?  --KyleH (talk) 21:38, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I still see PanSola's edit count as 426 edits, not the 9000+ he has. --Shadowcrest  21:46, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
 * D'oh ... I was just looking in the right column. You're right.  --KyleH (talk) 21:51, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
 * My Special:Editcount and the number displayed in my preferences has a 500 edit difference.--[[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg]]îğá†ħŕášħ 22:06, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Mine has a 400 edit difference. Also, on my editcount, it claims I have more contributions in GuildWiki than I have on all Wikias :P Seems to be missing 2 talk page edits --Gimmethegepgun 22:26, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm still working on this ... --KyleH (talk) 19:07, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the reassurance (-: -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 20:08, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Site Completely Un-browse able Due to Script Error.
This is coming up for me on EVERY page on the wiki in Firefox2. Started a few days ago, but seeing as I haven't had any time to even use the computer, I'm just now reporting it. Anyone else having this issue? The page mostly loads, freezes for a few seconds then that pops up, and if I don't hit stop script, it will stay frozen. Really a pain in the ass. --   Isk8   (T/C) 19:00, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Turn off script debugging. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 19:01, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * How? And how did this just start happening out of nowhere? -- [[Image:Isk8.png]]   Isk8   (T/C) 19:08, 28 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm using FF2 myself, with ABP and the "Stop! Hammertime!" add-ons. Nothing is borking for me. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  19:11, 28 September 2008 (UTC)


 * [[Image:Isk8-Firebug1.jpg|400px]] [[Image:Isk8-Firebug2.jpg|400px]] I'm using Greasemonkey, Firebug, ABP, and a few other misc. addons. -- [[Image:Isk8.png]]   Isk8   (T/C) 19:19, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Apparently turning off Greasemonkey stopped it for the time being. -- [[Image:Isk8.png]]  Isk8   (T/C) 19:22, 28 September 2008

(UTC)
 * Fine for me - try noscript - and look at the scripts running and see if there is anything else that could cause errors (FYI: FF3 > FF2) Random Time  19:34, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I haven't even installed FF3, I didn't know if all the addons from FF2 would work with it. -- [[Image:Isk8.png]]   Isk8   (T/C) 21:57, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The good majority do. But I'd still recommend you see if you can find an extra ff2 installer lying around so you can downgrade if needed.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]] Entrea   [Talk]  22:39, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

sidebar and top bar
These essential parts of the wiki skin refuse to show up for me unless I refresh each page several times. Sometimes IE does not even detect that there was an error. Either something siteside is broken or new Microsoft updates don't like GuildWiki. >.> (T/C) 04:55, 21 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm seeing this in IE7 as well. In FF3, I'm seeing an error "quantserve is not defined" at various line numbers.  (Quantserve is a tracking service from Quantcast.)  I'm actually seeing this on other sites as well, now that I'm looking for it, so it's probably an error in Quantserve's javascript.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:17, 21 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I've loaded some pages on IE7 yesterday, and the bars showed up for me. They've always showed up on FF so far, unless I left some divs unclosed.. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  16:58, 21 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Dunno if this is of any relevance, but in FF3, when I opened a page, it loaded the content, but not the top/side bars, then it sat there for a good 5 seconds saying "Transferring data from media.fastclick.net..." Would that be related to the cause of the problem?  I dunno if wiki uses that site for anything.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 02:36, 22 October 2008 (UTC)


 * IE sometimes gives an error about getElementsByID at line X is null or not an object. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:15, 22 October 2008 (UTC)


 * media.fastclick; isn't that ads? Could explain why I don't have such problems; Ads are blocked for me. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  12:36, 22 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I need to stop forgetting that you guys are using Monobook. Anyway, I was able to reproduce both this problem and the upload problem.  I've bugged the appropriate people and I'll let you know when I find out more. --KyleH (talk) 21:55, 22 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Just for a little more info, not sure if it helps or not, my bars are showing up about 15% of the time. But most of the time they don't. [[Image:Shogankillername.jpg|x19px]] 20:59, 28 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Also, see this, the toolbox appears at the bottom ... --Balistic Pve (T/C/E) 00:50, 29 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Nice illustration of the "uploaded, but missing picture" bug. Anyway, that funniness is because your browser doesn't receive the CSS from wikia. If it thinks it has an incomplete copy and that is the correct one, the instructions at w:Special:MyPage/global.css may help you (?). --◄mendel► 14:27, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
 * My sidebar and top bar are also not showing up... 100% of the time, no matter how many times I refresh the page or clear my browser cache. No error message popping up either.--[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 20:36, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * See .CSS hack a few subheaders below this. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 20:39, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Didn't help. Sidebar and top bar still isn't showing up.--[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 21:04, 31 October 2008 (UTC)


 * IE/FF/Opera/Safari/other? --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  21:29, 31 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Refresh and it appears eventually. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:54, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

uploading images
I can not upload images any more. When I hit the "Upload" button, it blanks out whatever I had entered into the "Source filename" field, thus resulting in the "The file you uploaded seems to be empty..." error. (T/C) 09:11, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * What browser and operating system are you using? --KyleH (talk) 17:47, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I had the same problem in IE7, started with all of the recent mumbo-jumbo crap. No error, but it clears the "Browse" field when I hit upload.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 18:12, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * ^What she said. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 18:40, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm installing IE7 now so I can do some testing. I'll let you know what I find out. --KyleH (talk) 18:42, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Also check out the shole side and top navigation bar thingy. It shows up for me sometimes, and usually it doesn't.  E7 on XP.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 21:18, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

broken tag somewhere
Occasionally when I load a page, everything is in the center, as if the entire page was enclosed in a tag. One of them must be broken or unclosed somewhere in the code. (T/C) 19:55, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * If you reload the page, does it fix it? Also, any specific places it happened, or just random crap? --Gimmethegepgun 19:56, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I've seen it on Felix's talkpage and also on the Recent Changes. Goes away with reload(s). I often have to reload many times anyway, to get the sidebars back. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 19:58, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Happened to me a few days ago when I refreshed my Talk page in IE7. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 01:05, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

wiki freezes up
On a diff comp, whenever i go to a Wikia wiki (GWiki being the most often), i see "Waiting for "http://pixel.quantserve.com/pixel/p-01-0VIaSjnOLg.gif?tags=ADSDAQ.HOBBIesINTeReSTS ..." at the bottom of my ie7 and it just stays like that forever... any solution? --Balistic Pve (T/C/E) 00:09, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
 * See above, it's a bug in Quantserve's javascript. It's very likely that this bug is also causing the sidebar/etc. to not load.  Kyle has bugged the appropriate people about it.  In the meantime, Firefox is not crippled by this bug, so you might want to try it instead.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 01:23, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You can also add (courtesy of Wizardboy):
 * to your .css and that will take care of the hanging problem, and the sidebar one sometimes. However, since the default skin while not logged in is monaco, it can still hit you on the way in and out. >.> [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:13, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Add ?useskin=monobook to your "way in" bookmark/shortcut (or add &useskin=monobook if that URL already has a "?" in it) to avoid the monaco detour. --◄mendel► 05:30, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, cool. Do you have one for the "way out" also? Or actually, that's not possible since then it would have to be sitewide and we can't do that. I think... [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:32, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
 * For in and out, you can put the CSS in w:Special:MyPage/global.css, that applies it to all skins on all Wikia wikis. --◄mendel► 05:33, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
 * ..... no wait ... you're right, there's no way to do it for not-logged in users without disabling the ads, which we are forbidden to do by Wikia. --◄mendel► 05:35, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I can at least get it to work for me, so that's cool. Thanks, Father. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:36, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
 * That one would do it for the way out, though. And you really ought to adress me as "brother". --◄mendel► 05:38, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, I like that, but I can see how it's kind of useless too...after all we always prefer if people make an account, if only because it improves our WikiStats! It was my understanding that Gregor Mendel would be addressed as Brother only by those meeting or exceeding his status; and children or the like would address him as Father. But maybe I'm wrong on that. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:46, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol, well thanks guys it seems to be gone... for now --Balistic Pve (T/C/E) 22:17, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol, well thanks guys it seems to be gone... for now --Balistic Pve (T/C/E) 22:17, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Template:Showhide box
This is broken for me. The links to "show/hide" the box are missing. They also refuse to close on their own, even if there is more than one on a page as they normally would. Probably because they use JS for this sort of function (?), and that's usually broken for me. (T/C) 05:56, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Status updates
I've consolidated all these issues because I believe that they are related. I apologize that it is taking a while to get a fix out for this, but we're currently reworking the way that ads are displayed on Monobook, so it's taking a little bit longer than it should. I'll let you know when I have more information. --KyleH (talk) 19:07, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I have finally been able to confirm that this problem should be completely fixed now. Let me know if you experience any more javascript problems. --KyleH (talk) 00:29, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Server Failure at life.
I've tried posting something on progger's talk, and its failed no less than 7 times. I just gave up in the end. It's probably going to fail to post this, too. &mdash; Warw/Wick 14:22, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It took 6 tries to get this one working. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 14:23, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * It took 1 try to type this. My guess is it's on your end. --[[Image:Progger.png]] - talk 14:25, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Working flawlessly for me atm. It's even fast. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  14:47, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * My meditating gurus are varnishing. (not that often but I shouldn't be seeing it ever >.>) [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 15:05, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

This is also showing up for some people when they first try to load GuildWiki:

Forbidden You don't have permission to access / on this server.

Apache Server at gw.gamewikis.org Port 80

Danger Will Robinson! (T/C) 01:21, 31 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Use guildwars.wikia.com directly. --◄mendel► 09:13, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I am. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 10:23, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah ... some stuff broke ... it should be fixed now. Sorry :( --KyleH (talk) 19:44, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikia supports porn
What the deuce is this? 19:26, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It's a Kevin Smith film. Zack and Miri Make a Porno --KyleH (talk) 19:41, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Well ask them to change their spotlight ad. We have kids 10 years old coming here. And yes, I am objecting to the word "porno," not the link. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 19:44, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll pass the feedback along. --KyleH (talk) 19:47, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No offense but, ugh - bad choice Random Time  21:15, 31 October 2008 (UTC)


 * According to imdb, that film is rated at age 16 to 18, depending on the locale, and GuildWars is rated 12, so it really isn't appropriate. --◄mendel► 22:29, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I thought "Teen" was 13-18. >.> [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:47, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It's the low end we're looking at here, frankly. Two notes: a number of theaters nationwide will not be playing this movie because its R rating was basically a personal favor to the director and it's really more like NC-17, and tonight I saw an official TV commercial for the movie which called it simply "Zack and Miri." Is Wikia's moral sense looser than cable television's? [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 07:06, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * So does the fact that you link your talk page with a "T" mean that it is rated Teen, Entropy? ;-) Anyway, I bet movies rated T are appropriate for 13-99 (but Z&M isn't, is it?). And then there was this cinema where this bunch of kids went to see "Zack and Miri", and the cashier looks at them says and says: I'm sorry to disappoint you lot, but you really must be 18 to see this movie, and the kid at the other side of the counter says, why do you think I've brought 17 friends? --◄mendel► 07:19, 1 November 2008 (UTC) & 07:43, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Entropy: Guild Wars is rated 12 in the UK. Random Time  08:25, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * You savage Brits [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 23:43, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

(Reset indent) I am still seeing this ad. I would like to request that Wikia remove it completely until the Kevin Smith wiki people make a new one. 23:58, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Images without extensions
Recently there have been a few images uploaded to the wiki that lack a file extension in their name (Image:Ultimate collection ;D, Image:Great isn't it?-D are from today). Is there a way to prevent people from uploading files without extensions? --Shadowcrest 18:51, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * This reminds me of when person uploaded an .exe, I thought this extentions issue was dealt with... [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 22:21, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It looks like the extensions issue was only partially dealt with ... please don't delete that image until I can get our tech team to look at it. --KyleH (talk) 00:33, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Image:Monk >.> [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 23:08, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Interlanguage links
I guess it's futile to ask for the wikis listed in Category:Templates/Links to be added to the interwiki map, but nl: and es: really should be in the interlanguage table (and maybe cn: for w:c:guildwarscn:)? I'm asking because I'm presently building interwiki link templates. --◄mendel► 20:46, 2 November 2008 (UTC)


 * gww:, gw2w: and pvx: are already on the interwiki list, were there others that need adding? I just checked the interlanguage table to ensure all the variations are in there - including es and nl.  New ones may take up to 24 hours to show (they tend to get cached) but please let me know of any that aren't working after that.  Thanks -- sannse (talk) 12:12, 3 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The four templates (gw.de, gw.es, gw.fr, gw.it) link to our "sister" wikis not on Wikia, and it'd be nice to have them on the list, even if they can't be set up in the interlanguage system. Thanks for taking care of the Wikia interlanguage links, I can see es: is working already! --◄mendel► 19:37, 3 November 2008 (UTC)


 * nl has kicked in too now. We can add the others to the interwiki list, but it's probably best not to use abbreviation with full-stops (periods) in.  It probably won't have any effect, but it's good to be cautious.  Is there another suitable abbreviation?  Either way, please add any additions you want to http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Interwiki_map and a Central admin or someone else with access will add them -- sannse (talk) 18:58, 4 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you, and thanks for the hint. :D --◄mendel► 00:41, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Not getting enough ECs (lol)
So recently there have been a number of cases (many of them on my part) where someone writes a comment, and it "eats" someone else's comment, totally replacing it on the page. The other person's is still in the history n stuff. Normally, you get edit conflicts to prevent this. What's going on? (T/C) 21:14, 6 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Another similar case is on articles; 2 people editing the same thing. Say, change Kournan Scouts to Kournan Scouts . The second to press edit doesn't get EC'd, the edit does show up in RC, but without any changes. As if the second person made a null edit (which don't pop up on RC). --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  10:43, 7 November 2008 (UTC)


 * This is still going on, would be nice if someone at Wikia could look into it. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 00:38, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Game updates
Hi got this error on the Game updates talk page, but the rest of the site was working OK...???... Wierd:



Himm Taeguk  (T/C) 15:26, 7 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Now Fixed, oh well :p. Himm Taeguk  (T/C) 15:29, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, some times the meditating gurus need varnishing. Happens to everyone once in a while. --Macros 15:34, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It's an issue with Wikia's front-end cache servers, which use a memory caching service called Varnish. The Guru Meditation has a much older origin, though.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:59, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Interesting reading as ever Ishy :D Himm Taeguk  (T/C) 16:08, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. ^_^ &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:27, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Other Wikia wikis
Why is it GuildWiki is the only Wikia wiki that doesn't look like this? --Macros 11:35, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * 'Cause we're just that good and/or Kyle is oorsome like that [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 13:08, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * w:c:fallout looks fine to me - intermittent glitch? But yeah, we're special. --◄mendel► 13:34, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Mendel suggested switching to the quartz skin to see if it worked, and it did. Switching back to monobook makes the wikis break again. --Macros 14:40, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Is that bug still happening? I can't seem to reproduce it.  GuildWiki is special (that is, it has a separate version of Monobook), but the rest of Wikia shouldn't look like that anyway. --KyleH (talk) 21:33, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Macros told me on irc that it doesn't happen on Quartz (I suggested tryng that), so the problem seems to be with Wikia's monobook and monaco skins - remember GuildWiki is special for having its own GWmonobook.php skin. I told him to try that because I caught a conversation on #wikia the other where another person seemed to have similar problems, possibly related to some plugins. --◄mendel► 22:59, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It seems to be working now. For some reason... --Macros 22:44, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

HANGING CHADS?!
I've noticed with the new way that polls work - the tallies do not seem to update in any meaningful way until I make an edit to the page. For example, I have a few polls on my userpage. One of them had ~31 votes, another ~15, another ~3, and the last ~8. After I edited my page, the counts were ~40, ~30, ~18, ~24, or something like that.

Do we have to make null edits to see updated polls? Or is this yet another problem with IE? :C (T/C) 14:11, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Updates just fine on Firefox. :\ -- [[Image:Isk8.png]]  Isk8   (T/C) 03:43, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Doesn't update normally for me, but whenever I vote on something I do a purge of the system cache and it shows up :P --Gimmethegepgun 03:47, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It shows me what other people voted before I vote, and I can change my vote at any time, is that normal?--Łô√ë [[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg]]<font color="Black">îğá <font color="Brown">turkey 03:48, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Dunno, but I get the same thing. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 04:18, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

While we're on the topic of polls: What happened to the "You voted x"? --- -- (contribs)  &emsp;(talk)  12:43, 22 November 2008 (UTC)