Talk:Aura of the Lich

Ollj, if you wander why I reverted this. It'sbecause your text did not add any info and it had some typos also. And if you would like to add something about this skill, add it in the Usage section. --Geeman 07:38, 23 Aug 2005 (EST)

Health regeneration is not healing and degeneration is not damage. The game is consistent on that matter. The description is not wrong. --Fyren 21:10, 23 Aug 2005 (EST)

Ollj, are you sure that also regular healing like Orison of Healing gives full healing instead of half when it is given by an ally? Have you tested this? any proof? --Geeman 03:12, 24 Aug 2005 (EST)

Sure enough. tested. We actually have a grat build with 2 melee necros, they are great fun because they are better offensives than smiting and the better the more foes are nearby and they are a LOT of DoT without exhaustion.

of course not all healing skills and enchantments. --Ollj 03:22, 24 Aug 2005 (EST)

I edited the 'usage' section to point out that 'sacrifice' is no the same as 'damage.' The game treats these two classes of HP loss differently, and specifically by name when referring to one or the other.

Whoever changed the progression table, I think that Death Magic can't go over 17...
 * The template goes to 19 (instead of having four times as many progression templates for a variable max of 16-19). If you notice questionmarks where it's not possible, fill in "N/A" instead.  --Fyren 22:39, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I tested it, aura of the lich DOES halve health sacrifice beyond the fact that it halves max health. Next time test it when you think it is wrong... if you really need it, I can post a screen shot with it... 25% of 212 is 56, and when i sacrificed 25% max health at 212 max health, I took 26 damage. I am not sure about vamp gaze etc in combination with AotL, but for health sacrifice, AotL means 1/4 health sacrifices.


 * I rewrote the notes. I think it's clearer and more concise now.  I removed the melee necromancer/KotH note, since it didn't particularly make sense the way it was stated (before even mentioning dark aura) and I think it's obvious that you want to work with dark aura's PBAoE damage.  Readd a reference to unholy feast if anyone cares.  --Fyren 04:21, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Now that we know the skill behavior isn't exactly what we expect it to be, someone should test life stealing against AotL. arg for stupid descriptions, but at least we don't have to test degen. -PanSola 04:44, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
 * The note was actually correct before, but it was changed and no one noticed (not even me when I made an edit, heh). I don't have aura on any characters to test with the doppelganger versus life stealing, myself.  --Fyren 05:00, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
 * It remains correct. Life Stealing bypasses Aura of the Lich; I tested against the Doppleganger to be sure. -Evil_Greven 13:05, 28 February 2006

stacking
stacking would imply you can reduce max health to 1/4 of original value. The added note isn't clear whether this happens orn not, and I tend to think not. -PanSola 09:14, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I wrote a discription, what is meant with stacking, so the note shouldn't imply to stack the health reduction too. Adding "partly" like i did in the original form could be a better choice. Stacking is in my opinion the right form to characterise the health bonus with the maintained enchantment. If you really think it confuses more then it helps to explain the meaning, well, then delete it and write a proper note for this kind of effect. I just thought that using "stack" would explain it faster then writing 2 lines. --Nemren 12:19, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, your note felt like "This cat can do head-splitting. This allows you to target a mouse and break its tail", and the article about head-splitting only describes how to open up a head. -PanSola 12:32, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Crystal Wave
Does anyone know if Aura of the Lich reduces damage from Crystal Wave?
 * AotL isn't related to armor or magic resistence, so my guess is yes. -PanSola 04:02, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Deep Wound
Does anybody know how this skill is affected by Deep Wound? Does it come after AotL or does it affect the original max? Gah, I had another question too, but I forgot... 69.124.143.230 02:27, 27 February 2006 (CST)
 * Does it really matter? 200 - 40 / 2 is 80 as is 200 / 2 - 20. I'm sure what happens is the max health is recalculated and AotL changes your max health to the new half.  I use AotL with demonic flesh and thats what seems to happen anyway. | Chuiu
 * Just tested it with the Student of Deep Wounds in the Isle of the Nameless. I started with 435 max health. Aura of the Lich reduced it to 217. Deep wound reduced it further to 174. I waited for AotL to expire first, and ended up with 348 max health (while deep wound was still active). In each case, it seems that deep wound just removes 20% of whatever the max health is. &mdash; Stabber 04:02, 27 February 2006 (CST)

Protective Spirit
How does this skill work with PS? more specifically, with a 55hp monk? Does it halve the damage after calculating PS or before? Could a 55hp Necro be the next trend? --Gem  04:30, 18 April 2006 (CDT)
 * Halving takes place first (DMult), so you'll see no benefits. Check the archives on Talk:Damage to see if what I just wrote is an assumption or actually empirically tested. -PanSola 04:40, 18 April 2006 (CDT)
 * If you cast PS first then AotL then the effects combine, ie PS cuts the damage down to 10% and then the aura halves it. I tried this out on the warriors in nameless - with 480 HP halved to 240 you take max 12 damage IF you get the prot spirit up first. When PS runs out and you recast you see the damage cap go up to 24.

Check here for PS effects. I believe you take 2 damage with this setup. Resolver12 22:45, 28 August 2007 (CDT)

double-checking the note
Say originally I have 100/400 health. After casting this skill, does my health become 50/200? Just want to check if the note means what it says. -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 01:34, 7 June 2006 (CDT)


 * From memory, what actually happens is that you lose 200 health and then your max health is set to 200. AotL can kill you if you cast it when you have less than 50% health. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 01:37, 7 June 2006 (CDT)


 * ... which in your example means that you will die. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 01:38, 7 June 2006 (CDT)


 * ouch. So... "your current and max health are reduced by half your maximum health"... is that too wordy? -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 01:40, 7 June 2006 (CDT)


 * No, you won't die. You will be left with 1/200.  It works the same as deep wound's health reduction.  I can't think of other ways to reduce an enemy's max health, but I'd guess it's probably how it works in general.  --68.142.14.92 01:59, 7 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Will you have negative health? Like it will show up as 1, but you would need 100 healing to break even? Skax459


 * I think 101, but yes. --Fyren 20:05, 1 May 2007 (CDT)


 * On a side note other ways to have negative health include the ending of skills that increase max health --64.230.116.253 17:19, 10 July 2007 (CDT)

Healing
If, say, use Contemplation of Purity right after casting this, will I healed to a signifgant level? Or when Aura ends does my health double, but my actual HP stay at half? --Alt F Four 16:39, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Well, you'll be healed. The first note mostly explains how it works but leaves out that when you regain lost max health, you only regain as much as the loss was.  Because of this, AotL probably isn't a great choice for a self heal, but I guess managable if you can keep using it when you're at around 60-75% (so you don't get splattered while you're at 10-25% relative health before you can CoP but so you also get something out of the heal).  --68.142.14.19 17:39, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

Spirits
Does the damage halving take place before or after damage reduction from ritualist spirits? Desme 13:40, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
 * this skill is DMult, from the Damage Equation, so it happens after almost everything else. Union would reduce 15 before halving, but Shelter needs to be tested. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 14:07, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

Question about degeneration
I removed a question that was asked in the main article, and I'll answer it here. Degeneration is not considered damage as such. Aura does not affect degeneration of any kind. -- Imbril Shadowfire  16:45, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

Bug?
Isnt a non-specificated feature or effect a bug? I quote from the article:

''It is very important to note that Aura of the Lich does not simply reduce your max health by half as the description says; it actually also causes your current health to decrease by half your max health (but no lower than 1). As such, be careful when activating this skill as you may be reduced to just 1 health if you have taken quite a bit of damage.'' Acglaphotis 18:58, 4 December 2006 (CST)
 * Whenever your maximum health changes, your current health also changes. It's not a bug.  Reword the article if you like.  --Fyren 19:03, 4 December 2006 (CST)

Updated?
I just capped this elite, and when I used it, my current health didn't get halved, it just halved my max health and then adjusted my current to fit that new maximum. --Angelo

And, the heals don't stack either anymore, if you reapply the enchantment before it ends. All those notes are incorrect now. --Angelo
 * It still works the same on the isle of the nameless. I stood by the burning dummy till I was at about 380 of 480 health.  Casting AotL resulted in about 140 of 240, as expected.  At 12 death, it lasts 39 seconds.  From a fresh start, I cast AotL twice in succession.  A little before it recharged the second time, I was healed (and was still enchanted with AotL).  --Fyren 06:17, 2 January 2007 (CST)
 * Also, casting AotL, AotL, CoP in succession resulted in a double heal. --Fyren 06:19, 2 January 2007 (CST)


 * How come it didn't work when I was playing with it in Random Arena? I never did get double heals, my current hp never got halved? Want to tell me why? I really would like to know myself. --Angelo
 * If you're at full health and you cast it, you'll still be at full, just with half the max health. For the healing, I'd guess you just didn't see it.  --Fyren 04:21, 6 January 2007 (CST)
 * No, I didn't always have maxhealth when I used AotL, nor did I get the heals until AotL ended, and only once. Now I wish I had screenshots, as I'm left unbelieved, but I have had 100 hp left when I've used this, and not gotten my current hp halved. F*** this, I don't want to argue anymore. It's bugged, it doesn't work the same for all. --Angelo

does this work with Shroud of Distress ? "For xx seconds, if you are below 50% Health, you have a 75% chance to block attacks"
 * Shroud of Distress works off of max health. Since you have a new max health, there's no difference except that degeneration and health stealing will help you get there faster. --220.233.103.77 19:55, 4 February 2007 (CST)

1hp
What if your health was 1hp? Then your damage would equal 0! That would pwn! AmericanVlad 19:28, 20 February 2007 (CST)
 * Why exactly would you take no damage? --Fyren 22:04, 21 February 2007 (CST)

I dont think you would take 0 damage because it reduces damage by 50% so 50% of 1 is 1 %50 chance and 0 50% chance if that makes any sense but i do know that when i cast it with an uneven number of hp say 55hp sumtimes i take 3 damage and sumtimes i take 2 damage so i could be that it will give u 50% chance of 0 and 50% chance of 1 but u rlly wanna test ur luck?.--Gene195 15:49, 17 May 2007 (CDT)

Except for the fact that there is no limiter to health. Only a reducer. Therefore, a Flare that would do 60 damage would end up dealing 30, killing you all the same.

Dark Bond
does this stack with dark bond?--Rickyvantof 09:43, 3 March 2007 (CST)
 * It does. Blades of steel vs AoTL will only be about 35dmg. Blades of steel vs AoTL + Dark bond = 10dmg top-X H K

negate some of the half max HP penalty
Has anyone tried combining Vital Blessing with this spell? Not only you may negate the half max HP penalty but you will have half damage reduction all together with bonus healing at the end.--Dark Paladin X 18:03, 24 March 2007 (CDT)
 * You'd be better of with a healing spell. Half damage and half max health means
 * damage will kill you exactly as fast as without AotL.
 * healing, re/degen and lifesteal are twice as effective.
 * Unless you're creating a runner build or something else that can't cast, you're better off using that doubled efficiency. If you insist on getting more hp, Demonic Flesh won't require /Mo. And most uses of AotL actually WANT the half health, to cut down sacrifice costs. 134.130.4.46 09:56, 2 April 2007 (CDT)

Stacked Healing
as i get it from the note, the healing when AotL ends in an example: you cast the first aura, you cast it again, again and again, and then suddenly someone removes it. this means you get healed for everytime you cast aura. if that's right, i'll make the note clearer. - Y0_ich_halt  contribs 07:42, 22 July 2007 (CDT)

If you used Aura of the Lich + Prot spirit, whilst on 1 hp, presumably from dp+runes... would you be invincible against everything except degen and life stealing?

no it rounds up Lithos Soldier 23:29, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

wait with the skill i dont know i should test that Lithos Soldier 23:29, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

"Vengeance is Mine"
Will AotL trigger the extra damage from weapons that are 20% while health under 50%?
 * I believe not, since AotL will make your max health half, but your CURRENT health will still be above 50% of your max health at the moment. KazDoran 13:42, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It will trigger it if your health is under 50%. Example, originally 480/480 health. You use it then 240/240 health. Once you are under 120/240 health (under 50%) it will trigger.

Anomaly
Do we really need the anomaly note? the skill description says, "you take half damage from all sources", so I think its kind of redundant. Fu22yNavel 03:17, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Sacrifice isn't damage. [[Image:ShidoSig_moebius2.gif]] 04:10, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd say that sacrifice not being damage is more of an anomaly than this.

December 11, 2008 Total Change in Skill Wording
All corpses within earshot are exploited and you animate a level 1...14...17 bone horror plus one for each corpse exploited in this way. For 5...37...45 seconds, your Death Magic attribute is increased by +1. Separ 03:51, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Needs more Death Magic increase so you can increase your minion cap to accommodate all the new minions.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]] Entrea   [Talk]  04:01, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Nah, just think of the extra minions as "instantaneous full energy for all necros in some random GODLY RANGE" --Gimmethegepgun 04:02, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh No! Only the MM is alive, surely we will wipe! BAM. I hope they don't notice that you can summon a minion without any bodies. JoePhlanx 04:05, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but with a 45-second recharge it's a stupidly useless to use with no corpses.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]] Entrea   [Talk]  04:14, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Read the Devs' notes, the first minion is meant to be raised w/o any corpses needed. King Neoterikos 04:15, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You just wait, Entrea, SOMEONE is gonna come out with a MM build that uses this in places WITHOUT any corpses. And it's gonna own. And then you'll cry in a corner while I lie to you about cake and throw you in a giant furnace --Gimmethegepgun 04:17, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * By the time this skill is recharged, that one pathetic bone horror will probably be dead or so close to it it won't matter. I'd be very surprised if anyone can figure out a way to use this skill to maintain corpseless armies of more than 5 minions, and that counts using gimmick builds.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]] Entrea   [Talk]  04:19, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Entrea, It's the simple things in (un)life. Neoterikos, Yay. Also, quit edit conflicting me. JoePhlanx 04:21, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * How about Malign Intervention + some Verata skill? Cress Arvein [[Image:Cress sig.JPG]] 04:21, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I can just TASTE the gimmick ! --Gimmethegepgun 04:22, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, you've got me there. Arcane Echoing it and using Mimicry to get Swiftness could result in a decent-sized army.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]] Entrea   [Talk]  04:25, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Adventure with an Ally, imo [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 04:26, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, I was thinking Echo the Mimicry and copy the Glyph twice, but that would be HUGELY expensive. Not sure which would get a better yield --Gimmethegepgun 04:27, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Darn it, I was going to suggest Jagged Bones but I kept previewing/ getting edit conflicted.


 * The funny thing about having a second Nec with Jagged... is that if you give both Necs ArcaneMimicry... the first Nec will usually end up with 2 LichAuras b/c it auto-copies the borrowed copy from the second Nec. ...So the first Nec can potentially have Twice as many minions spawning every minute. --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](13, Dec.'08)


 * This is all over RA now. lol Cress Arvein [[Image:Cress sig.JPG]] 05:28, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It's also in HA, where it's completely imba. Needs nerf to require corpses, or revert. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 18:18, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmmm. Maybe I should check out HA again. Cress Arvein [[Image:Cress sig.JPG]] 18:22, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't care how ANet changes this skill as long as they don't revert it. Finally! No more Invinci-MM's in Fort Aspenwood! Kaze 21:48, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * You never even NEEDED this to be practically invincible as a PvP MM, since Dark Bond and Infuse Condition are so ridiculously good. Not having AotL just makes them a tiny bit more vulnerable. Now they'll probably STILL take AotL since, by using it, they can get over their vulnerability when their minions run out by making an instant giganto-army --Gimmethegepgun 21:54, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Explosive Growth, anyone? @ 16 Spawning, that's (8x68=) 544 AoE instantaneous lightning damage, lol. Unfortunately, everything will be dead by then :/ - [[Image:AdVictoriam1.PNG|19px]] Ad Victoriam  22:11, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I think they will neffer in JQ and FA it´s really insance... First builds in HA strats to focus around that... I think they will leave it to PvE and PvP will be reverted. --85.207.210.115 02:23, 13 December 2008 (UTC)johnny
 * Higher energy cost makes it difficult to echo this.
 * God this has taken over RA... just saw a 4th necro using this+Arcane Echo,etc for Bam! Instant Army... grrr, tempted to bring my Derv with Banishing Strike. Qing Guang 22:37, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Why do I feel like this is going to be the whole spirit spamming umlimited soul reaping thing thats gonna result in yet another completely unnecesary nerf to SR that doesn't fix the problem yet makes good normal builds suffer? They wont nerf an imbalanced skill or effect synergy, but hell, lets nerf everything that doesn't need to be so that the problem remains, but create a problem for everyone not exploiting said imbalance. Sorry I'm still bitter about that whole nerf Soul Reaping fiasco, but my point stands. Watch them nerf not the skill, but that with which it synergises. Shadowshear 03:30, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

This
Still reduced damage to 50%, I herd --- -- (contribs)  &emsp;(talk)  22:24, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * go check it out on isles.--Łô√ë [[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg|Ho ho ho.]]îğá †ħŕášħ 02:28, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

titans
This is gonna make the titans in hell's a lot more difficult I think. No more ignoring the ash hulks to kill the more threatening ones, or you'l have armies of high-level minions against you. It might be kinda cool to take them away with vereta's aura though.--El_Nazgir 08:16, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * They wouldn't be too much of a threat seeing as how there aren't too many corpses. King Neoterikos 09:54, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * actually NO.. Titans are ill-equipped to get the most out of it... here's why:

A.I. Useage
Due to the old programming... all AI/NPC units including heroes appear to be using this skill improperly for the most part. ...They may be more inclined to use it when they're near some corpses. But they won't use it while idling which defeats the purpose of it's new focus. ...Or worse, they'll use it right as the fight begins thus preventing themselves from using it again before all the new corpses have been exploited by Pools or expired on their own. The radical shift in this power's focus necessitates a quick guide in this talk page for utilizing it best on Heroes...which I'll add right now: ...Additional contributions to this subsection are welcome and requested. Especially any testing on results with other Primaries or Secondaries (Mesmers with S_o_Ill, Echo, or S_o_Insp comes to mind) --ilr(15,Dec.'08)
 * 1) The best secondary for multiple AotL using Heroes is now /Mesmer, for Arcane Mimicry usage.
 * 2) Adding in Arcane Echo however is less efficient and will only slow you down... even with Key Binds.
 * 3) Keybinds are highly recommended since the AI won't use AotL on their own while idling.
 * 4) If using keybinds, you only need 2 per hero... 1 for AotL's slot, and 1 for Mimicry's slot.
 * 5) Three minions per Nec is optimum/maintainable...especially when equipping Withering/Nova enchants and V.S.
 * 6) This strategy is effective in Dungeons that yield NO CORPSES (confirmed by completing S.o.D., Ooze, & O.L.) /w AotL MM's

Anti-Summon Skills Becoming More Tempting?
Maybe instead of begging for nerfs we should consider the various benefits of anti-summon skills. Banishing Strike can punish people who hide among their minions, especially when you hit three minions with it at once. Holy Spear has the same nearby range of Banishing Strike, can be used from a safer distance, and is fairly cheap. Signet of Creation, if you can be patient, has its own uses. And does Swap have an aftercast? What I'm trying to say is that we should look at this not as overpowered, but as making Minion Masters viable in more areas, and therefore adding new levels of depth to the strategies that we make. My only complaint is that it is the only skill that does this. Lazuli 17:09, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Who said it's overpowered? Just annoying as hell. If you want overpowered, go to the Talkpages of -> Dark Bond & Infuse Condition --[[Image:Takisig.jpg]] Taki Fujiko  20:17, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Wow, that was epic. Now try a serious comment, please. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  20:20, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Do you mean me? I was serious. I find this build to be an annoying bore, but then again I don't play much HA, I can imagine it going rampant there. @Anti-Minion skills: Too limited, only paras and dervs have them...and smitemonks --[[Image:Takisig.jpg]] Taki Fujiko  20:29, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Mesmers too... And most Warriors are all the Same anyway (always WamMo's... so there's nothing stopping Them from using Judge's insight + HundredBlades to clean house).  I will admit though... this skill coupled with the Mesmer profession ironically (which just keeps getting buffed every quarter), has the potential to be overpowered in a few too many areas of the game including PvE.  As much as I love my Mesmers, I really wish our Goons would start getting some of that good fortune instead. --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]


 * Taki: Open obs. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:42, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Good luck with Unnatural Signet against any reasonable number of minions. Single-target armor-ignoring damage aganst a low-armored minion makes it a poor counter. And your Wammo won't help either, because Hundred Blades just got nerfed. Bring AoE damage (holy if you can afford it) or kill the MM. If you do want a more specific counter, bring corpse control, it won't help you kill their starting army, but it'll prevent an unpleasant comeback after you've killed half their team. 134.130.4.46 09:02, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Ray of Jugment looks like it's going to be a big hit, too, and that'll blow up minions gud. XD ــѕт.  мıкε  12:04, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Read the H.B. talk page harder plz... Countering AoTL armies with a single H.B. warrior supported by M.o.P./Barbs hexers will now do insane amounts of AoE damage because the physical damage trigger seems to encompass a much wider range than was possibly intended.(maybe Anet did it on purpose just to counter over-popularity of Assassins and these new AotL Necs??). No one knows for sure, but atleast do the homework first before claiming H.B. was totally Nerfed :p /UNSIGNED for dramatic effect (-ilr, 15,dec.'08)
 * You dreamt up "totally", and I still maintain it was a nerf. And prefer sins for MoP triggering. 100Blades + Barbs might make it into a bunnyway-style build, however. But in the context of AotL and killing minions in PvP, it's pretty silly. 134.130.4.46 03:35, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Well I say it was nerfed too, but that's because they nerfed my specific build (inadvertently, I'm sure, in their attempt to buff it, because I think I was probably the only one who used it). However, there're still the antiminion skills (hmmm, Heart of Holy Flame or some such + Banishing Strike = funfun). And now I have a reason to bring my MM into RA as an MM (as opposed to as a crappy Blood/Black Mantis Thrust spiker) - I won't use this skill, but imagine the fun when I Verata's Aura their little army... they do all the work, and I reap the benefits. At 16 Death Magic, they should stay bound to me for long enough to finish off the other team. And I still have room for an elite! I wonder if I could use Grenth's Balance to counter the sacrifice from VA... hmmmmm... Qing Guang 22:52, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

What is a Lich?
Retohical question... kinda. A Lich to me is an undead spellcaster. Animation is implied but that's not really the core of what a lich is. The concept is far more insidious. When broken down to the Guild Wars system, it should be a skill with a lot of wicked potential. It should be much more "thinkie" in how it combines with other skills, and not do much on it's own. That's where the old version was cool. One of my favorite builds for a death necro was a dark aura toucher, who used Aura of the Lich combined with sacrifice skills and double the potential health regen to survive melee. The first hit to this build was the Contemplation of Purity change (which wasn't intended to effect a dark aura build). And now this hit's the build again. But my point isn't about the build, it's about AotL's synergy potential. That potential was never fully realized, and the build mentioned wasn't all that powerful. But the concept was cool, and hit on what a lich was more. Especially by the fact that this skill could either be very helpful or detrimental to you (with both regen and degen effectively doubled), capturing the insidious nature well. I think the old functionality, with some added functionality would have given this elite the power, flexibility, and wicked "thinky" synergy it deserved. For example: Not all those things, but maybe one or two of them added to the original functionality would be far stronger conceptually and bring it the elite up to a proper level of popularity. Would fit with my personal belief in the strength of the skill doing not much by itself, but being able to add the the effectiveness of your other necro skills. --Mooseyfate 21:19, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * +0-2 death magic (there you'll achieve your minion secondary-level-concept for the lich)
 * 0-2 energy regen or 33% extra benefit from soul reaping
 * when soul reaping triggers (or a corpse is created) all enemies suffer something to the effect of a low level energy burn.
 * all nearby foes of a corpse you exploit suffer deep wound. (synergy with all types of corpse exploitation builds).
 * a corpse rises from the ground at your location (upon casting of AotL, also corpse synergy, but potentially exploited by the enemy)
 * whenever you sacrifice health, one nearby enemy sacrifices half that percentage. (synergy with other sac skills, and even one smiting skill).


 * Old AotL was gimmicky, and rather useless for general PvE (setup time for AotL bombing is huge; SH casts 6 times faster and kills faster). In PvP it never got beyond AB, the lowest form of PvP (well, actually it's PvE with some random newbs tossed in, and the occasional guild group). This AotL has great potential for abuse; 50 minions after 5 seconds in an HA match is epic.
 * Most of your suggestions are dumb (why would a Necro ever need even more energy?), or overpowered (Putrid Explosion now gives DW? Fucking OP'd).
 * The definition of a Lich is rather braod, btw. I always saw it as a semi-undead dude making massive armies of walking drumsticks, and sucking the life from those who survived the army. So yeah, matter of interpretation. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  21:27, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Dumb? Really?  That's how your gonna contribute?  Sorry to offend you with my dumbness.  Those concepts are a lot more interesting in a synergetic way.  Your reply has completely missed the point... either for your own small view or my bad writing.  Some ideas may be under or over powered, but that's not the point.  It's the synergy potential those changes represent.  A mini-brainstorm  I'm not gung ho over the exact details, just the spirit of them.


 * Yes the DW is powerful. What about other elites?  Still not as spamable as wounding strike.  The corspe requirement makes exploitation skills pretty underpowered in pvp.  But it doesn't have to be exactly that.  If it makes you happy, think bleeding instead.  How are you getting 50 minions after 5 seconds?  You double echoing and renewing AotL to get and loose 12 at a time?  Having 4 death magic necros on your team?  Your right about the practical follies of AotL.  But the concept was cool, and didn't need to be abandoned to be practical.  Yes, my difinition for lich is broad.  Yours idea is narrow, focusing on just one kind.  How large was the original Prophesies Lichs ever growing army of the undead?  I guess he had some non-undead titans that he controled through non-lich means.  I agree, the energy thing is probably the weakest idea I threw out there.


 * I just want to see the original idea of the skill being brought up to a practical level, not completely changed. The new skill is interesting, but it leaves gap the old one fulled (in concept, not practicality). --Mooseyfate 22:26, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * My Fav Definition of a Lich was the old WC3 version --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]
 * The aoe energy burn and enemy sac is so incredibly overpowered, Jesus. If the sac one was the case, I can just see necros spamming Blood Renewal to kill a whole party. 71.88.205.1 05:05, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * You indeed take several Death Necros. And you do echo AotL. You guessed correctly.
 * Please, lrn2read: "Yes, my difinition for lich is broad. Yours idea is narrow, focusing on just one kind.  How large was the original Prophesies Lichs ever growing army of the undead?  I guess he had some non-undead titans that he controled through non-lich means. "
 * "The definition of a Lich is rather braod, btw. ". Note how I stated "The". That implies a general, possible definition of a Lich. Not specifically yours. Yours is, btw, just as narrow, focusing on one interpretation; the undead spellcaster
 * By changing the behavior of a mediocre skill (degen kills you twice as fast, whee) to be a bit stronger doesn't always work. If it gives AoE DW on corpse exploitation; yes, it would be used. And nerfed shortly after, making it fall out of use again. Bleeding would be so pathetic noone would run it even still, except those who did before it gave AoE bleeding. Yeah, what a buff. Especially cause it doesn't affect Dark Aura Bombers. Just saying...
 * Did the Undead Lich from Prophecies have an udead army? Never noticed that. He has Titans, however. The Orrian skeletons in Kryta aren't the Undead Lich's, fyi. The Titans are souls from the Foundry of Failed Creations, which also contradicts Anets view of a Lich, which is ironic, really. I now start to wonder why the Undead in Kryta aren't the Lich's. Haha. I'm straying off topic. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  17:17, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The undead may not have been the Lich's personal army, but he could control them with the Scepter of Orr (see Sanctum Cay). Also, at least a few do answer to him directly; see Gates of Kryta (end cutscene). [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 17:23, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You guys are getting into some really Fuzzy territory here since Anet only partially revealed Which Lich was behind it all. Just b/c you capture AotL from a Titan, doesn't mean that the Lich theme was ever tied to the Titans. It's clearly a more thematic shift in the Lore being undertaken here by A-Net.  I'll definitely miss the Blood-Saccing potential this skill used to have but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it so long as the skill itself has become so much more versatile in every part of the game --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](15,Dec.'08)
 * The undead in Kryta WERE the Lich's (Vizier's) minions. That's why they were in pursuit of the Scepter of Orr. I was under the impression that after the Lich's defeat they reverted back to being a bunch of corpses and the Dragon Lich re-reanimated them. &mdash; Powersurge360  06:42, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

PvP/PvE-Split?
First Order of Undeath, now this... why not fudge Jagged Bones while were at it (personally, i'd -love- to have it deal x-damage + bleeding in addition to spawning Jaggeds). Whats missed most about the old-version was was its undisputed survivalbility/sustainability as Necro's best self-healing skill (fallowed by Heal Area and Mystic Regneration, respectfully); a simple tweak/buff could just as easily brought it out of AB. This newer version, while undeniably useful for N/Me's and Rt/N's in PvE-play, is currently asking for nerf-bat in HA... that and the Nec's in AB/CM are noticably easier to kill ^_^ DB/IC never stopped me from spiking them ~10 seconds. Split for (buff)PvP-for-old and PvE-for new... its only a matter of time. Falconeye - 11:05, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If you're just talking about Enchant Stripping them to remove any of those aforementioned health recovery powers just as easily as DarkBond is removed... then what's the difference in PvP? I lost count of all the times my AotL-Monk died/suicided in PvE of all places just b/c AotL got stripped without me noticing it (yeah I didn't pay attention too well to my buff bar back then :p).
 * If this silly power is too strong in areas with lots of dead bodies but gimpier on mini-teams, then maybe they just needed to limit it to only exploiting 2 corpses at a time but cut the recharge time in Half. And if that's not enough, then they could just make it double health-gain from Death Magic powers.  ...either way a heavy enchant-strip team will totally rock just about any PvP Nec you could bring so there's no ways around that. --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](23,Dec.'08)
 * The problem isn't its ability to exploit corpses, it's the ability for a necro to START a match with 2+ extra minions. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 06:33, 25 December 2008 (UTC)
 * What idiots. 2 weak, low-damage bone horros is imba? WTF is wrong with you. And in Lichway in HA, monks get like 40 energy per cast from chaneling, AND aoe annihilates the minions. The only thing that this is imba in is PvE, but pve is pve - designed to have a shitload of imba skills (see eye of the north) with which u can c-space through the campaign. Stop failing at PvP. Yours truly, Random ip who is known as cheese on other wikis nvm that comment, thought this was the official wiki, i was known as cheese here:D. still too lazy to log in. 75.80.128.228 18:31, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
 * What idiots. 2 weak, low-damage bone horros is imba? WTF is wrong with you. And in Lichway in HA, monks get like 40 energy per cast from chaneling, AND aoe annihilates the minions. The only thing that this is imba in is PvE, but pve is pve - designed to have a shitload of imba skills (see eye of the north) with which u can c-space through the campaign. Stop failing at PvP. Yours truly, Random ip who is known as cheese on other wikis nvm that comment, thought this was the official wiki, i was known as cheese here:D. still too lazy to log in. 75.80.128.228 18:31, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Dude, ever faced this in HA? You need Verata's Aura if you want a chance to survive the Deathly Swarms + minion DPS. Sure, the graphic of DS is extremely obvious... But that goes down the drain against 40 fucking Minions. And once all the minions are down, they simply recast AotL and have at least another 8. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  18:37, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It seems rediculous to me that AotL has Both the free minion and the +1 Death Magic. i dont like how theres no reason to use any other death elite, even if you arent a MM, to balance this skill they need to remove the +1 DM and remove the free minion. However, I think it'd be a MUCH better idea to revert it back to its old functionality, at least for PvP, if not both. This new functionality upsets a delicate balance that has existed since the beginning of GW, you need bodies for minions, and minions can only get to lvl 19, and thats only if you get lucky. This messes up both. This change was just a very bad idea to begin with. I hope it gets nerfed into oblivion, and im usually the one who supports necro buffs. But i'll never support clear and present imbalance. Shadowshear 02:33, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeesh, don't ya think you could be exaggerating just a tad? --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]

Ritualist Synergy
My friends and i have been trying this out with Explosive Growth. Killing off a mob and then pulling another mob into the corpses of the prior mob then using AoTL. Ususally reduces a mob to about 2/10 their health depending upon the size of the mob and HM vs NM. But it has been pretty effective.--66.192.104.13 20:00, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

revert war
" They also rarely use Blood of the Master to heal minions created with Aura of the Lich that were not created from corpses." Stop adding or removing this note now. I'm removing it untill someone else but the anon and jon states that it is true or false after testing it. Do not add it again before anyone confirms it!--El_Nazgir 16:27, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I Can't confirm that this is true. I went with AotL and animate horror, both disabled, made a minion with AotL, hero let it die of degen, made 1 with animate horror, hero let that die of degen as well.
 * Although I have used AotL as my only minion spell on a hero before. And they have used botm to keep them alive. (as far as I remember at least) Viruzzz 17:08, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Have you tried echo'ing AotL? Perhaps a hero only uses BotM when there are multiple minions? --JonTheMon 17:52, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * That might be it. If we test it further we could add that to the BotM page too, but I'm stuck on a pc without GW atm.--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir 18:13, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Trying right now. Viruzzz 18:50, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * confirmed: heroes do use botm when there's more than 1 minion. and not when there's only 1. So it's not a bug for AotL, if anything it's for botm. Viruzzz 18:53, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Also both minions were created with aotl. The spell and then the echo'd one Viruzzz 18:54, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * That's it, Anon was wrong, Jon right, question solved.--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir 19:00, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I made my olias create 5 minions with AotL. and with just Blood of the Master and Blood Renewal (and an occasional heal to him) he maintained the minions for 9+ minutes. and he's still going. --JonTheMon 19:18, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * mah $0.02 → Although the note is technically right and AotL seems to have some kind of conflict that makes the Hero AI FAIL to use BotM properly, while at the same time do nothing but Spam V/S even mid-combat like an Emo BiPer... I can testify that it shouldn't affect NORMAL game play because the entire point of AotL is just to always have a "walking Bomb" or condition infusion Minion ready to go at the start of every fight. If people want to cover every single AI quirk or otherwise about AotL, they should be doing it in this talk page instead b/c there's just too many of them for a frontpage. --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](14,Feb.'09)
 * I can also confirm that heroes will maintain minions created using AotL. King Neoterikos[[Image:KNsignature.jpg]] 21:34, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Could it be that the hero AI doesn't heal one minion with BoTM because they weigh out the health that they'd sacrifice versus the heal, so using it on one minion is less effective? - [[Image:AdVictoriam1.PNG|19px]] Ad Victoriam  06:44, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * That's my guess. I haven't noticed anything strange when using AotL, except that they use it at odd times (start of a fight) Viruzzz 07:46, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * That's why i asked about using it w/ more than 1 minion. and I usually force my heroes to use it right before a battle starts so he has 1 more minion and it's ready when there are more than 0 corpses. --JonTheMon 16:10, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

OK it looks like I was wrong. Crow eating time :p. My apologies for being an idiot and an asshole (and apologies especially to Jon).

However I think I'm going to do a few more tests with BotM to understand when heroes use it. My current theory is the hero will only use BotM when at least 2 minions go below 50% in health. The hero won't use BotM for just one minion below 50% in health. I may be wrong again of course. 60.48.227.2 15:57, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

stacks with bloodstained insignia?
it exploits corpses now, so does it? 213.23.117.29 14:29, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * no. 17:41, 24 March 2009  17:41, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * As usuall, when Anet changes skill functionality, they "forget" to fix the underlying mechanics... RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 19:20, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Not a bug. AotL does not target corpses; it targets yourself. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 19:21, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Bloodstained Insignia: Reduces casting time of spells that exploit corpses by 25% (Non-stacking). AotL exploits coprses, thus it IS bugged.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 19:49, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It does not reduce the casting time of Unyielding Aura (PvP). The corpse exploitation is a secondary effect and so it doesn't get the bonus. (primary effect is "create a minion from thin air"). [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 19:56, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Unyielding Aura (PvP) does not exploit anything on skill activation, only at some undetermined future time when and if that target dies, and if the target doesn't die, no exploitation takes place. AotL specifically states it exploits corpses when it is activated, which is the primary functionality of Bloodstained insignia - reduction of activation of skills that exploit corpses.  There is no distinction between "primary" and "secondary" effects here, they happen simultaneously, only one is conditional and the other isn't, so if there is a corpse in range for the spell to exploit, it should be affected by the insignia.  Anet just "forgot" to flag it as such when they changed functionality.  They do that a lot.  It's ok.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 20:03, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * But UA "exploits corpses". Bloodstained Insignia does not specify that corpse must be exploited at time of casting. AotL probably does not count for "exploit corpses" because if there are no corpses in earshot, none are exploited. A skill likely either has the "exploits corpses" flag or does not - it can't be set conditionally. I'm not trying to defend ANet or anything, just saying that the proper "bug" (if it even is) is that AotL does not target corpses. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 20:09, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

The insignia description does not mention "targeting" corpses, so that claim is simply inaccurate. Also, UA only exploits a corpse IF the target dies in the future, and it may not die before the end of the match, thus not causing any exploitation at all, so the insignia has no way of "knowing" whether the exploitation will occur or not. With AotL, there's no question about it, it is determined at the time of casting. The only defense against this being a bug is that AotL does not require the presence of a corpse to begin its activation, while other exploitation spells do, even if they exploit a different corpse than the one that initially allowed the skill's activation. So, you can start activating it with no corpses around, but something can die before it finishes, so it exploits it. OTOH, you can start activating with a corpse, but it gets exploited by other means before the activation finishes, which would make other exploitation spells fail, but AotL would still finish and get its 1 minion and refresh the enchant duration without exploiting anything. Thus, the behavior of this spell conflicts with the usual functionality of the Bloodstained Insignia. I think the Insignia's description needs to be rephrased to state that it reduces the activation time of "spells that require a corpse to be exploited" or something like that. The way it is currently worded technically means it should apply to AotL. So, Anomaly, then? Most people, including myself, would have expected this to be affected by Bloodstained, so it's very much worth mentioning, and is not an expected behavior. RoseOfKali 20:25, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Something like this: "Anomaly: this spell does not require the presence of a corpse to begin or finish its activation, and is not affected by Bloodstained Insignia." Sound ok?  Not sure if this qualifies as an Anomaly, either, maybe just a simple note.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 20:33, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Death Magic increases before or after?
There have been a few reverts, so can someone definitively test whether the Death Magic increase will affect the minions generated by the same cast of AotL? 06:14, 15 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I thought that had already been done, and that it the first cast @ 16 death magic you created lvl 18, and on the seconds (if you had an +20% ench weapon) you created lvl 19 ones.--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir 06:19, 15 April 2009 (UTC)