Talk:Shadow Form/Archive1

General Chat
Nice elite for a 55hp :p 02:16, 20 March 2006 (CST)


 * Well skills that make your foes can't hit you are not loved by 55 monks. --Karlos 15:29, 20 March 2006 (CST)
 * Kinda depends. Using this already means you can't use Shield of Judgment.  So your damage is probably going to depend on something else.  Additionally, this will prevent a 55 monk from using Bonettie's Defense, so energy source is another issue.  So, in one sense, 55 monks in their current general form have no use for this skill.  But if there are competing energy and damage resources from the Assassin line, it might be a great option.  This is Spell Breaker + Bonettie without the energy gain. -SolaPan 17:47, 20 March 2006 (CST)
 * Blah, very short duration relative to recharge though, probably not gonna be useful for 55 afterall. -SolaPan 17:48, 20 March 2006 (CST)

This skill combines perfectly with a mesmer secondary. Cast Illusion of Weakness, Arcane Echo, Shadow Form: near constant invulnerability! This could be the best runner in the game...
 * Health lost through Shadow Form will most likely not trigger Illusion of Weakness, so don't count on that to bring you back to full health. --theeth 19:21, 11 April 2006 (CDT)
 * It should trigger Illusion of Weakness, It will be one of the first things I test when I cap this elite however. Source of it not triggering? --Draygo Korvan 11:33, 25 April 2006 (CDT)
 * Tested it, Shadow form does not directly trigger Illusion of Weakness. --Draygo Korvan 12:12, 2 May 2006 (CDT)

This is one hell of a dangerous enchantment if the ending loss of health is triggered when the enchant is stripped, which I suspect it is.
 * Strip it? How? Well of the Profane and Chilblains are the only counters against this, and not very good ones considering the assassin's high mobility.
 * Another assassin could strip it with Expunge Enchantments I think, cause that's just a touch not a hit - this needs to be tested - ... leaving you one hit from death. --MasterPatricko 14:29, 5 May 2006 (CDT)

You might be able to use this to do the Doppelganger battle in Augury rock. Get the dopp to hit it, you use it a few seconds later, the dopp's will run out and you should be able to thwack him in one or two good hits. Is there anything wrong with this theory? --Kit Engel 05:33, 6 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Nothing, but its probably better with Expunge Enchantments and you just not using Shadow Form at all. :) Not sure how easy to get him to use it is though. Ubermancer 20:37, 12 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Just put only Shadow Form and an enchant strip on your bar and nothing else. Max daggers out. Once he uses it, strip and strike. You could probably do it in ten seconds if you were lucky. >> Kessel 05:13, 15 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I would guess that the doppelganger won't use shadow form until it's low on health. --Fyren 05:23, 15 September 2006 (CDT)

You might be able to arcane echo this or even copy it from allies (whatever skill that is) to double its length. However does that make you lose the health from the first copy? --MasterPatricko 05:26, 7 May 2006 (CDT)
 * You can indeed use Arcane Echo and Arcane Mimicry to keep this enchantment up past the normal duration without triggering the massive health loss. Schesis 20:59, 14 July 2006 (CDT)

Am I the only one who's getting his health dropped to 52-55 at 16 shadow arts instead of the stated 53? It seems to be random. Armond
 * Works fine for me. --Fyren 16:16, 27 January 2007 (CST)

Things to test
Can anyone give an explanation (beside bug) of why Avatar of Grenth fails to remove Shadow Form. It should remove when the style is used. Seems like it is not a simple "makes miss" but instead remove attacks as a whole.

Does it prevent damage from IW? LordKestrel 11:19, 25 April 2006 (CDT)
 * I think not, attacks with IW on already miss, you'll still take the damage Skuld  11:22, 25 April 2006 (CDT)
 * That's why I marked it as something to test :) LordKestrel 11:29, 25 April 2006 (CDT)
 * You should note however, that it might be just as efficient to wait until it's ended to          anyways. Unless they're already low. -Kingrames
 * IW goes through Shadow Form, and as mentioned above, it'll be better to just wait for it to end, unless the user is half dead already. Mainly confirming this, as I slashed a 'sin using it at Aspenwood -Kaguya

Do AoE spells that do not directly target the shadow-formed assassin work?
 * I think they do, as much as they work on targets with Spell Breaker on them. --Akaraxle 03:06, 5 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Yes, I saw numerous times afflicted assassin using this skill die during its duration from a Death Nova. Likewise, their on-death explosions damaged me while testing the skill. --Thervold 13:57, 8 May 2006 (CDT)

Does Expunge Enchantments work to remove it? --MasterPatricko 14:29, 5 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I think it does. Shadow Form protects from spells, but Expunge Enchantments is a skill. --Akaraxle 05:30, 9 May 2006 (CDT)
 * It does, I have removed it from another assassin on my assassin. -Kaguya

Question: If you have Shadow Arts at level 12, and it runs out when you have <41 health, will it heal you? Removed that from the article. --Xasxas256 10:06, 6 May 2006 (CDT)

What happens if you Arcane Echo it? Basically, do you lose health from the first Shadow Form if you renew the enchantment? --MasterPatricko 05:26, 7 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Since the effect lowers your health to a number, it will only cause you to lose health if you have more hp than that. Copying the skill means you get twice as much out of it. -Kingrames
 * Tested that in Tomb of the Primevil Kings - got Empathy on me before Shadow Form went up, so I reduced myself to 3 hp attacking... Then SF ended and I still had 3 hp. Armond
 * You won't lose health if you recast Shadow Form before it expires. Make sure don't cast it too late or you'll lose health when it expires just before you recast it! --Dark Luke 16:50, 22 May 2006 (CDT)

Does it prevent damage from non-spell touch skills such as Iron Palm and Vampiric Touch? --Thervold 14:00, 8 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Likely, those are treated as spells and don't work. Testing may be necessary, since they're only called skills, but it's hard to believe that Iron Palm and Palm Strike aren't either a) attacks or b) spells. -Kingrames
 * As a rule of thumb, skills are not affected by enchantments such as Spell Breaker and Obsidian Flesh. Skill is a type on its own and different from Spell; for instance, Shock is known to get through Spell Breaker, isn't affected by Migraine and cannot be interrupted by Power Drain (though Cry of Frustration does work). --Akaraxle 04:08, 11 May 2006 (CDT)
 * It does not prevent damage from Vampiric Touch or Vampiric Bite. Tested. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 03:12, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

Does it prevent damage from signets like Unnatural Signet and Signet of Judgment?
 * Signets are not spells, hence it should not. --Akaraxle 04:08, 11 May 2006 (CDT)

Would Sand Shards still hurt the player? It's not a direct attack since it triggers upon missing, or so I last checked. Kamahl 14:26, 19 September 2006 (CDT)

will targeting someone with an attack skill while in the form of Grenth (Avatar of Grenth) work since it doesn't say hit, but it says use?Go defenestrate yourself.
 * I remember dying pretty fast to Avatar of Grenth as a E/A with shadow form, and as far as I know there aren't other enchant removes, so my guess is yes grenth's removes enchantments even if it doesn't hit. Should be tested to make sure though.

How to Shadowform
do it 60 seconds or infinite loop like me and my brother invented.3 skills shadow form arcane echoe (arcane mimicry) with shadow form, or echoe elites on partner, and(assassin's promise =45 second kill clock)which partner can mimic your shadow form while using diff elite. this with the following equipment is 60 second loop, or infinite cycle see ranger sq nature quickening

use a dagger handle enchants 20% longer 16 in shadow arts, exploit this better than iway ever was build with 3 superior ruins its safer carry different armour encase you see the 3% of skills able to touch you, change to non-sup armour 5 slots for health or whatever you discover Listed metagame counters. Smite monk, signet humility(you can use signet disablers as your a mesmer with 5 free skills) touch necro, area dmg. Keep in-mind it would be banned as people realise and use this build if it didnt have these weaknesses so I implore you to work past them. Like iway it takes 2 twin assins. Well instead of 8 w/r also try natures quikening/sq/ A/R or R/- an assin ranger using x to place rit quikening behind him can do infinitely alone

This proves assassins confident in ther survial rate usualy immune and lifts the curse of assins cant find party die to fast theories, which plague the new Job's moral and popularity cap south of zou kou cooridor first boss b4 name of area on map quik & ez. Also spawns at Vizzunah square at first fight where groups meet, usualy spawns on balcony scene if you want it quikly cap now.

my mesmer assin cant do infinite loop just 60 seconds with 5 second down time which is really slick still with mimicry. Its a very arcane build. walk through spikes run! farm together waste enimies enrgy and time reach your goals assasins, slap on those sup crit and dagger ruins safely ftw. I couldn't forge run with it solo 40-45 sec ehnchnat 20% version but i got to beacons from Lions Arch myself. 2 can run most any area i can think or farm or gvg everything

Martin Rolland tanogra@hotmail.com emails welcome friends


 * Hee hee, bet you can't run past a Grawl Crone. :) --Karlos 04:48, 21 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Lol. Anywho, that would take a lot of work, coordination, and reduction in damage potential. And you couldn't forge run cause of knockdowns (which some are skills, not attacks. I find it useful in *some* running situations... but not for a dedicated runner. I find it best used in emergencies when you're getting low on health. Sure you'll die when it comes off... but you woulda died anyways. To me its like an endure pain that blocks spells. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 152.7.18.136 (talk &bull; contribs) 09:39, 21 June 2006 (CDT).

Shadow of Haste duration has been changed. Needs further checking on that part. Jylilaht 12:58, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

My math puts a two man shadow form A/me build at a 75 second duration, ouch. Two invincible A/me's ganking your monks for 75 seconds, extra ouch.--24.150.37.198 06:44, 23 November 2006 (CST)

I saw two assassins use that method stated above in the Arenas (can't remember which). It was pretty pathetic. They were dead in like 5 seconds --One Three Three Seven 09:07, 16 July 2007 (CDT)

Unsuspeced effect
Double Dragon (spell, elementalist, fire magic) is capable to damage me while in shadow form. To test: simply exit from marketplace and seek a group with a Jade Brotherhood Mage. What I see exacly is: "-68 (double dragon)", and is alto strangely less than the usual 100+ dmg
 * Double Dragon does not target a person it does AoE damage at the position of the caster. As for the -68 I don't know. Did you have a Spirit or Prot Henchman in your team? Or did you wear an armor with conditional boni like +15 while attacking? --SET 08:10, 12 August 2006 (CDT)

Yet another thing an exploding dervish can bypass-they cast enchants of themselves, which effects others.


 * The description isn't hard to follow, it says "all hostile spells that target you", so naturally untargeted stuff aint gonna affect :p &mdash; Skuld 17:25, 24 January 2007 (CST)

Cyclone axe ?
I saw that Cyclone Axe is listed as hitting shadowformed targets - has this been tested? I don't think it is an AoE attack, it must run a separate attack against all foes around the warrior (else how would it determine individual damage?). All attacks against shadow form will miss, therefore cyclone axe shouldn't hit shadowform.
 * while it is implied that cyclone axe, tripple chop etc would hit, a literal interpretation would sugguest the attack is not targeting anything, and therefore would not be affected by shadow form. scrimage? --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 17:23, 16 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Whether it targets them or not, Triple Chop mentions "Each attack that hits" and Cyclone Axe has "striking for +4...10 damage", where the + implies bonus damage on top of weapon damage. I doubt any of them hits through shadow form, but if they do, I'd be even more curious to see if Order of Apostasy could then be used to remove shadow form (which would seriously be messed up). --Theeth (talk)   17:51, 16 August 2006 (CDT)
 * There is no reason they would be any different from normal attacks. The cause adrenelaine gain, like normal attacks, unlike death blossom AoE dmg. They use your weapond damage, unlike any non-attack AoE. I have seen them blocked/evaded/miss before there is no reason SF would be any different.--Devils Apprentice 20:28, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

cyclone des both aoe and regular damage for example you must select a target (last time i checked anyway) to use cyclone axe then all foe adjacent receive aoe like death blossom so if you target say a monk with no enchants on who is adjacent to an assassin with shadow form you would hit the assassin but if you taregt the assassin you will miss (dunno if you still hit the monk tho).

Cry
Would Cry of Frustration interrupt a recasting of Shadow Form or Arcane Echo?
 * You'd have to use cry to interrupt someone nearby to get the AoE interrupt to interrupt the assassin, but it's possible. --Fyren 03:57, 17 September 2006 (CDT)

Incorrect, cry is a skill, not a spell.
 * Cry is a spell. --Fyren 09:36, 6 December 2006 (CST)
 * Cry of Frustration <Click. Wiki says its a spell. VegaObscura 15:09, 18 January 2007 (CST)
 * GW itself says Cry is a spell. --Arthas 10:47, 31 May 2007 (CDT)

Ranger skills to keep it up, why revert?
As previously noted by 68.192.188.142: "Like Mist Form, Using ranger skills and enchanting mods you can keep this up permenently without losing health." Why was this reverted? I assume anon was referring to Serpent's Quickness or Quickening Zephyr to use to keep this up. --Ryard 22:10, 4 October 2006 (CDT)
 * With 16 Shadow Arts and a 20% enchanting mod, Shadow Form lasts 25.2 seconds. With Quickening Zephyr, Shadow Form recharges in 30 seconds. -Savio 22:19, 4 October 2006 (CDT)

But with QZ and SQ it only takes 20 seconds to recharge. Next time read what Ryard said. --68.192.188.142 20:10, 5 October 2006 (CDT)


 * See Recharge. -Savio 20:12, 5 October 2006 (CDT)
 * What Savio is trying to say is that a recent patch changed limited the amount of cumulitive recharge from skills at 50%. It wouldn't matter if you had 20 individual skills with 25% faster recharge, it would be capped at 50%. You would need an individual skill to recharge it 60% faster to chain it back to back. [[Image:Chuiu Me Icon.png]] (T/C) 22:10, 5 October 2006 (CDT)

Notes section mentions two things

 * 1) Arcane Echo can help keep Shadow Form up longer.
 * 2) Because attacks that target you "miss," attacks that cannot be blocked or evaded will still not hit.

Were these 2 comments REALLY neccessary ? When I read them I was all "doh!" Is it really not clear for everyone that a "miss" is indeed different than a "block"/"evade" ? Or that Arcane Echo dupes spells for reuse ? I would expect the Notes section to only show facts that were once presumptions and have been tested since to prove a point, like the behaviour of Cyclone Axe on Shadow Form. n00kie 07:53, 6 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Remove bad information first, ask questions later. (Kidding... but if it's seriously bad info, I usually take the initiative.) On a side note, does Cyclone Axe actually hit through Shadow Form? -Savio 08:00, 6 October 2006 (CDT)


 * I cleaned up the common sense stuff. Also, Cyclone Axe does not. --Karlos 08:09, 6 October 2006 (CDT)

Reckless Haste timing
IF timed well with reckless haste you can teleport out of there exactly when the enchantment ends. maybe not a fantastic idea but something i wanted to note ;)
 * I guess you mean Shadow of Haste? --CoRrRan 07:28, 23 November 2006 (CST)
 * I assume that's what was meant as well, and I don't think this is possible. Both are Shadow Arts, so a high SA would mean a 54 sec (or longer, unsure of length at SA 16) for Shadow of Haste. Would only be possible if they were different attributes. -Scyfer 05:06, 13 December 2006 (CST)
 * If you cancel Shadow of Haste with another Stance, you are teleported back to where you started SoH. So, it should be possible to use this the right way ;-) - ITiger 11:27, 19 December 2006 (GMT+1)
 * It used to be a common thing on Mo/A Blessed Light Monks. You just use Shadow of Haste to set a "home point" then when you are in trouble hit Dash to be teleported back to that point. VegaObscura 15:11, 18 January 2007 (CST)

Illusion of Weakness
Just noticed the history of this page where Illusion of Weakness was suggested, and then this was deleted back again since Shadow Form itself won't trigger the end of Illusion of Weakness. IoW would still be useful though as long as they took damage after SF ended, correct? Maybe leave the suggestion in there if this is the case since it would still be useful. --RabiesTurtle 16:57, 27 December 2006 (CST)
 * It's likely getting hit will kill you after SF ends. A real heal would be more useful.  --Fyren 19:05, 27 December 2006 (CST)
 * What I am not sure about is if IoW triggers before or after the damage is taken from your health. If it triggers as the damage happens instead of afterwards, then it would save you no matter what.  I don't know either way right now but I suggest this is actually tested before tossing out the idea.  I haven't been able to find notes from a test yet. --RabiesTurtle 20:15, 27 December 2006 (CST)
 * After. --Fyren 20:43, 27 December 2006 (CST)

Divine Intervention may be considerable with this  :: S oqed Hozi ::  17:58, 7 January 2007 (CST)

A/Me Invincible Annoyance
Came across a troublemaker in Random Arena last night who decided it would be fun to make a "nigh invincible" build using Shadow Form, Arcane Echo, Deadly Paradox, and Feigned Neutrality. Not sure what the other skills were but I think he also had some type of mesmer theft skill for extra annoyance, and was able to maintain shadow form constantly as best I could tell. Unfortunately he could do no damage so we were inevitably stalemated while he danced and ran around and waited for us to leave, ruining a nice winning streak we were having. Just wanted to complain here, I hope arenanet does something to nerf that combo. Ughhh people are stupid. -- BrianG 17:53, 10 January 2007 (CST)
 * I doubt they're going to. It's not a particularly powerful build anywhere, and they've never nerfed any supertank build in the past simply because it's obnoxious to face in the arenas.  Really, though, I don't think they should have added Shadow Form to the game period.  It's one of those skills that's always going to be either largely useless, or broken, but nowhere in-between, like Ether Renewal, barring major revisions to the way it works.  Merengue 03:00, 15 January 2007 (CST)
 * I also hope they do something to nerf this, I've recently seen multiple E/A Shadow Form AoE Eles ruining my Kurzick team in Aspenwood. They shadow form, shadow step in, and then unleash hellish AoE(Fire Storm, Bed of Coals, Phoenix, etc.) with a burning assist from Mark of Rodgort, it kills the gate NPCs and the Gatekeepers quickly (Which points out that they didn't get the AI update to move out of AoE) and half-kills Gunther.  Unless we have a few touchers or mad PBAoE, they get away with murder and are back again all too soon.  Phalmatticus 01:18, 6 May 2007 (CDT)Phalmatticus
 * There are soo many ways to counter that. Its the whole point of Guild Wars. 72.203.143.56 09:59, 22 May 2007 (CDT)

Extend Enchantments
I saw a Dervish Primary in RA use Extend Enchantments, Deadly Paradox, and Shadow Form and somehow kept them up infinitely. I have no idea what other skills were used, but as it would seem even with 16 Mysticism and a staff wrapping of enchanting 20%, Extend Enchantments would not stay up for the required 30 seconds. This guy, unlike the assassin mentioned above, had heavy damage. Can anyone tell me how he did this? VegaObscura 15:16, 18 January 2007 (CST)
 * He probably had a low shadow arts spec so he could have near-max mystisism and scythe mastery. He would not have been able to reach no-downtime, but assuming 15 mystisism plus enchantment mod, combined with paradox he could have had 24 seconds of shadow form, 6 seconds downtime (not counting recast) &mdash; Skuld 15:26, 18 January 2007 (CST)
 * Well you could never see his health visably drop. Maybe he used interventions so that when Shadow Form went down they would trigger and send his health back up.  I don't know if you have to get hit  before the interventions trigger, but whatever it was it kept him alive indefinately.  If you do have to renew interventions everytime, the amount of time spent recasting enchantments might make his build not worth it.  VegaObscura 02:31, 19 January 2007 (CST)
 * Interventions trigger when you take damage, not when you lose health. --Armond Warblade (talk) 15:21, 2 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Did he deal any damage? From that you could tell if he was simply maxing out both mysticism and shadow arts. M s4 17:41, 2 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Faithful Intervention and Vital Boon both give +health when they end. Combined with Extend Enchantments and Shadow Form, you should be at about 250-300 health when Ext. Ench. ends.BladeDVD 22:29, 2 July 2007 (CDT)

Spirits can hit you?
The notes say so, I didn't think this was so. &mdash; Skuld 11:28, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
 * They can't, just tested it. Screenie. --Dirigible 11:57, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
 * What about bloodsong? Does its attack have to hit for it to steal health?  Not that its ever going to matter since bloodsong alone is going to have a very hard time killing you. VegaObscura 12:58, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Yes, the attack needs to hit for it to steal health, and with Shadow Form up the spirit's attack always misses, so you don't lose health from Bloodsong. The same goes for Shadow Form and Disenchantment; SF will remain up, since Disenchantment's attack will never land on you. --Dirigible 13:13, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

Protective Spirit?
Could Protective Spirit work with Shadow Form?


 * Yes it would, but it's mostly useless, except for the residual damage you would take from a scythe or other AoE type damage. It would not protect against life stealing. --[[Image:Flask_Of_Firewater_small.jpg]] Ale 21:18, 29 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Are you talking about when shadow form ends? Nah, you lose health, so prot spirit wouldn't do anything.M s4 22:02, 29 April 2007 (CDT)
 * There is NOTHING you can do to prevent the life loss, except recast to delay the inevitable. There are no skills that will keep you at roughly full health when it ends. Otherwise, everyone in HA would be using that tactic. - [[Image:Ayumsig.jpg]] Ayumbhara [[Image:Ayumsig.jpg]] 03:37, 14 June 2007 (CDT)
 * When i first read this, i thought, it would be cast on the sin before shadow form ended, thereby giving him time to heal and not getting killed in a single hit. i could be wrong. very wrong. --Kurzspear 08:49, 4 July 2007 (CDT)

Needs functional change?
I think this skill has potential. IMO, this skill needs a functionality change. ATM, its only useful in gimmicks, and most obvious buffs would probably make this skill broken. The "lose all but X health when this enchantment ends" clause really hurts this skills viability. Buffing it somehow could make it see play, at least outside of gimmicks. Maybe changing it to an actual Form skill so it isn't abused by dual A/Me's running Arcane Mimicry (I've seen it done before, worked suprisingly well). I probably have no idea of what I'm taking about, but whatever. --NYC Elite 14:41, 12 June 2007 (CDT)
 * It certainly is not a gimmick skill. It's only seen as a gimmick skill because noobsins like to abuse it. It has its uses. The Lutgardis FFF run is dependent on this. It can be effective for running, farming (not as good as other methods but whatever). I guess because I used to be hardcore Kurzick (my guild owned Altruum Ruins back in the day). So most of you will have a different view of it then me.
 * I used to FFF at Lutgardis too, but I'm talking for practical use in PvP and the like. Its a gimmick not just because noobsins like to abuse, but because that's the only way it can be used. The skill is either rediculously abused or rediculously useless. Its like SoJ. Good for farming, but sucks elsewhere. Its abused in PvE for farming purposes, but for general use in PvE and PvP, its useless. Shadow Form is an elite that has potential, but falls short IMO. --NYC Elite 11:45, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
 * PROTIP: Not everything has to be entirely for PvP. There's a game outside of PvP. This is a PvE skill pure and simple. Farming, running, whatever. --Mgrinshpon 09:05, 4 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Except for the part where he doesn't care about those. If he's looking for PvP uses, why would he care how many PvE uses it has? - Auron 09:17, 4 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I think this skill is fine as it is. Changing it to a form skill would be odd, given that forms only came about with NF in the dervish, and shadow is not a god. :P PvP and PvE are such different formats it would be naive to think every skill should work just as well in both. --Ufelder 13:26, 4 July 2007 (CDT)
 * But it'd be plain stupid not to try finding uses in both. - Auron 19:53, 4 July 2007 (CDT)

shield bash
if a sin is attacking me with shadow form and i use shield bash, would he/she still be knocked down and have that attack skill disabled?J1j2j3 02:45, 14 June 2007 (CDT)


 * yes &mdash; Skuld 03:48, 14 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Don't see why not. --NYC Elite 10:34, 14 June 2007 (CDT)

end with inacurate hp
lately, I haven't been ending up with more or less hp than 41 when shadow form ends, on Shadow Arts 12. Anyone else can confirm?
 * This happens to me too. Sometimes, I end up with a little less than 53 hp at 16 SA. It's usually like 50 or 51, nothing big, so it's not because I'm using a "while enchanted" mod. --68.106.221.67 03:12, 19 July 2007 (CDT)