User talk:OBloodyHell11691

Heya, welcome to GuildWiki :) Could you sign your comments by either typing ~ or by pressing the Magical Sign Button on the toolbar? That way it's obvious you placed the comment, and you get a free timestamp! Isn't that awesome? ---  -- (contribs)  &emsp;(talk)  17:09, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

"What's your #$%#$ problem?" (DOH!!!)
Re: Your edit summary here - DeathByAnArrow didn't do anything except fix the capitalization of a quest name. I checked through the history, and you had not edited the number of foes in any of your previous edits. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 16:23, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that was a combination of odd timing and a DOH!. I got distracted by also updating the vanquishing page with the same info, hadn't yet saved it, and then saw that someone had updated it just a few moments before (not realizing I hadn't saved the update. I thought it had been reverted for some rude reason (tired, it was my third vanq in a row, and the Awakened near the Lair outpost in that area gave me absolute fits). Is it possible to alter that note after it's been saved? I would have fixed it to reflect the realization. "Mea Culpa". OBloodyHell 16:38, 11 January 2009 (UTC)OBloodyhell
 * No, unfortunately, edit summaries can't be modified. I've had plenty of situations myself where I'd like to change them, mostly typos that I notice right after I click Save.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:42, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Ain't that always the way? Your proofreader needs a proofreader. :oP OBloodyHell 16:53, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

GW:1RV
GW:1RV basically don't revert a revert without discussing it first. You've done this a few times now, just wanted to let you know there's a policy for that Viruzzz 23:17, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

1) I quote:  Exception: A first revert without any explanation conflicts with GuildWiki:Assume good faith, is not protected by this policy, and may be fair game for re-reversion. "I don't agree" is sufficient "explanation"? That's interesting... "information". I'll remember that S:-/  So far that's been the jist of many of these "explanations". Dr. Ishmael is the only one actually bothering to specify more about his reasoning. 2) In most, if not each case, the "reversion" has been adjusted to deal with the complaint as well. The reversions were merely used to re-base back to what I had done, rather than having to re-enter it, which is pointlessly tedious and just stupid.
 * The main unwritten rules of guildwiki are as follows:
 * Don't talk about Fight Club.
 * Standardization trumps all.
 * Just because anyone agrees or disagress, doesn't mean its right.
 * It's better to go to the talk page of an unliked revision after you have been reverted then start a revert war.
 * Ooh, and 34 applies EVEN HERE.--Łô√ë [[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg|Colors! ]]îğá†ħŕášħ 04:12, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

You fail to address my point in the least -- I quote an "explanation", since you force me to dig one out: ''I don't think it's relevant. if so, it'd go in the notes section''. That's not explanation, that's naysaying. Clearly, *I* thought it was relevant, or I would not have wasted my time adding it in the first place. So who died and made him god of this entry? And again, I didn't just "revert", I ALTERED the revert after I made it to address his point. See also the below, which also makes the case for what I'd done in the first place. Ishmael left a fair comment, not a mindless "Nuhhh-uhhhh. I don't like it" naysay. So the "explanation" was not sufficient to justify a revert in the first place. --OBloodyHell 04:19, 14 January 2009 (UTC)


 * That's not up to you to decide. However, I'd rather keep a contributing member than nitpick about enforcing some stupid policy. First rule of anything on GuildWiki is that Content Trumps All . Screw policy technicalities. Policy exists to help the wiki, not hinder it. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:41, 14 January 2009 (UTC)


 * That's not explanation, that's naysaying. Good observation. That's what a "revert war" is, continued naysaying with technical means. The way to outmanouever the naysayer is to let his version stand, support your own version on the talkpage, and if the naysayer can't adress that there or at least come up with an argument of his own, you claim consensus by default, and a day later you revert to what is "clearly" wiki consensus. And that actually trumps 1:RV - anybody who tries to revert away from demonstrated (via the article's talkpage) consensus becomes the odd one out.
 * It feels like it shouldn't be that way - if you are right, and clearly you are when there's no valid counterargument, why shouldn't your edit be allowed to stand? The point is that being right in certain ways upsets the wiki, so the smart people need to figure out ways to be right that don't. Continued reverts are not a smart way to be right.
 * Of course, it could be that it turns out that the "naysayer" actually can explain when the issue is raised on the talkpage, and in that case your course of action caused the debate to start that should've been happening all along. It means you helped him, in a way; but if you are averse to helping people you don't even know, what are you doing editing a wiki? ;-)
 * And, and lest I forget, welcome back to the wiki! I'm happy to have you here! --◄mendel► 08:05, 14 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The reason why information that some players may find relevant is sometimes removed is that if everyone adds his pet tip and no one ever removes them, pages can become an incomprehensible mess. See, for example:
 * Dunes of Despair
 * Thunderhead Keep
 * Raisu Palace
 * Imperial Sanctum
 * Jennur's Horde
 * Abaddon's Gate
 * Having too much information on a page, some of which is dubious or only marginally useful, makes it difficult to find the information that a player needs. In all of those cases, the page was greatly improved with the next edit, which greatly shortened the page.
 * Don't take it personally if your edit gets reverted. Quizzical 05:34, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) By your own rules, the reversion should be explained. "Null" explanations: "I don't see this as useful" are rude and assinine. If you can't come up with a better explanation, then you should leave it alone and take it to the talk page, as alluded to above

2) One can certainly simplify without removing useful details. Not all contributors are of equal skill in writing. I don't care if someone edits something, although I am a fairly good writer, because someone else may have a better way of saying it than I do. 3) I'll grant you that every niggling little detail about an area can be less useful. Noting anything unique about an area seems fully within the bounds of the purpose of the wiki. 4) Techniques for specific combat may fit better on the talk page, I grant -- and you might consider adding an additional page specifically for that sort of discussion, as opposed to discussions about general content. If someone is entering things which fit more on the talk page, rather than a simple "revert", one should consider moving the "offending" portion onto the talk page, with a note "detail fits better on the talk page... content moved". It's far less rude, explains why the matter is believed not to fit, and doesn't throw away the information provided completely. Even if you disagree, clearly someone thought it relevant enough to add it. Unless their description is clearly wrong (in which case a response is likely to follow), someone else may find merit in it. --It's all a matter of recognizing and appreciating that people are making an effort of their own to contribute something. Some of the reversions I've seen happen around here have been rude in the extreme and completely unjustified where they were supposed to be "explained politely" at best, and have definitely been inarguably inexcusable. Some of the main operators around here, from what I've seen, are busy throwing their weight around as "tin plated dictators with delusions of godhood" rather than being productive. --OBloodyHell 21:25, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * If someone is entering things which fit more on the talk page, rather than a simple "revert", one should consider moving the "offending" portion onto the talk page &mdash; I've been preaching that for ages, mostly in the context of "Trivia". -- ◄mendel► 22:01, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I hadn't really thought about that, but yeah, when you suggest it, it suggests two other tabs, one "Trivia" and one, for locations, missions, and/or monsters, "Combat Ideas" or something like that. Discussion ideally should be about the content itself. Fuzzy, yeah, but it fits. LOL. Nice link, BTW... --OBloodyHell 22:49, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Sysops aren't meant to be any more productive than normal users. They administrate users, not content. Besides that, I'm the only dictator around here, and I surpassed godlike status a long time ago. Don't forget that.
 * I believe that if an edit contains useful information, no matter how badly worded/longwinded/etc., it is much more productive to fix it than to simply revert it. Sometimes people do that because they can't be bothered to fix it themselves, but that doesn't help to resolve the issue and just creates negative emotions.
 * For mission articles, generally, combat advice shouldn't be added unless it is particularly effective and applies specifically to that mission. See the Dzagonur Bastion mission article, for instance - a detailed strategy is advised with fairly specific builds and such. It's OK because it is ideal for that particular mission and can't really be generalized. Compare that to, say, Gate of Desolation; here the only advice given is to take Holy damage, because that's all that really needs to be said, other than warning about monsters with reusable resurrection. It doesn't need detailed builds and stratagems. One other point is that stuff which applies to many different situations - for example, "Pain Inverter is good" or "Don't forget to display your X title" - need not be added as it is common sense.
 * In any case, if you have issues with a particular user's summaries (or lack of), you can take the issue up with them on their talkpage; and the content in question is discussed on the article's talkpage. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 00:26, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Arneh the Vigorous
99% of bosses are upgraded versions of a standard monster. We don't note this on boss pages because it's obvious based on the boss's species and profession exactly which normal monster they are upgraded from. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 00:18, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

It should, it's not obvious by any means. You presume information which is obvious to highly experienced users ("all awakened cavaliers are paragons, and only awakened paragons are cavaliers") but not necessarily to less experienced ones Further, it may be the case often (perhaps even especially so in The Desolation), but it's not always the case. It makes a lot more sense, if there's no difference at all in the spells/skills, only in the inherent "boss" qualities, to just say it's an "uber-xxx". Then it's clear exactly what the problems with it are, and there are no special considerations due to added spells or even something completely different -- ''. Arneh is a particularly obvious example, since cavaliers, along with accolytes, are one of the main problems in dealing with Awakened mobs. Making the statement that he's an "Awakened Cavalier" boss means you know all you need to know what the main problems with him are (the rez, in particular) without bothering to compare to see if he has any other skills added or swapped out. Noting that Arneh is a cavalier says that, unlike most Awakened groups, you want to take him out BEFORE the accolytes, since the accolytes are only touch-rez and less likely to cast that. Yes, you can notice that by looking at the skills, but the point is, you hae to look over the skills, think about what they do, then realize that it's exactly a flinkin' cavalier. Why not just SAY "Uber-Cavalier" instead of causing someone to figure it out, every time anyone looks at the page for the first time in a while? http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Island_Guardian http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Soulwhisper%2C_Elder_Guardian http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rockhide_Dragon http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Wavecrest_Stonebreak<br \> These two pairs are an example, though visually similar, Soulwhisper and Wavecrest do NOT match the criteria I'm talking about. They aren't an "Island Guardian boss" or a "Rockhide Dragon boss", because the skills are completely different. If they are exactly the same, that's a piece of subtle information worth noting. Which is my entire point--OBloodyHell 04:20, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I was gonna write a scathing message repeatedly breaking NPA but Entropy told me to stop doing that. So, basically sans npa's:  The mentally retarded don't play GW.  Have a nice day.--Łô√ë [[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg|Colors! ]]<font color="Black">îğá†ħŕášħ  04:32, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
 * So what are you doing here, asshole? Why are you paying attention to a Wiki for a game you can't play? --OBloodyHell 04:34, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Calm the fuck down. You don't know me, I don't know you. Stop raging. --Łô√ë [[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg|Colors! ]]<font color="Black">îğá†ħŕášħ 04:39, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe Giga's point was that if people are too stupid to figure out that "all awakened cavaliers are paragons, and only awakened paragons are cavaliers", they may as well /uninstall. Of course it was ambiguously worded and started NPAs, so it could probably have been worded better.
 * In any case, I think it would be fine to note "Foo is a boss" for those small % of monsters which are completely different than their normal monsters. The ones which you link above are prime candidates. I think that for the other monsters, unless they are significantly dangerous for some reason ("uber"), it doesn't make sense to list it. For example, low-level Charr bosses in Prophecies - it's not much use to say, "Felinam the Whip is an upgraded Charr ranger boss", since he is still failsauce, even at that point in the game. Also, "boss" in itself ought to covey a sense of additional power compared to other monsters.
 * That being said, I also do not see why the style guide could not be changed to include this data. It certainly doesn't hurt anything; sure, maybe it is redundant/obvious on most bosses, but if nothing else it provides an easy access link to the "normal" version of the monster, so if you are totally unfamiliar with them you can maybe learn how to fight them for the first time. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:51, 14 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Entropy's edit summary is really the main point here: she said, "never be afraid to question the merit of standard practice/tradition", the key word being "question". If you think something should be done differently from how it currently is, but you get reverted when you try to change it, then instead of starting revert wars you need to start a discussion about it.  Take it to the talkpages and see if you can convince people that your idea has merit.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 06:23, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Speaking of which, oughtn't this be moved to the relevant style/guide/boss/whatever talkpage? [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 06:29, 14 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Entropy's edit summary is really the main point here The second summary you can make a case for. The first one was mere naysaying. And that's my point -- your own guide suggests that the edit summary should be more than "that's useless" which was her excuse for the revert. And for rejecting that -- *once* -- AND actually addressing the issue made on top of that by rewording -- which is fully within the consistency of the guidelines, I was yelled at. Capisce?<br \>

And as far as moving it elsewhere, feel free. By all means, please point the way to whatever location you consider more topical.<br \> My general point here is that a lot of the people writing these things don't have a noob vp (and can't, for obvious reasons), but most of the stuff here is the greatest use to a noob. There's a lot of subtle elements to the gameplay which aren't obvious on the surface, like the fact that all the monsters are, in many cases, just variations on the basic professions, and that the bosses are often upgraded versions of a specific monster with no new spells. For the enormous cost of about four words, something to the effect of "xxx is a boss version of monster yyy", you call attention to that to those without experience, and even make an astoundingly quick summary for the experienced user going into an area they've not done in a while. It also calls attention to the boss not having any particular unique spells or attributes other than just those associated with being a "boss" in that area, without you needing to actually compare pages. If they have any spells not associated with monster yyy then they aren't just a "boss monster yyy", they're more.


 * re: "calm down"... LOL. If I was raging at you, you'd know it. Throwing your own rude, pointlessly insulting snark back in your face is hardly raging.<br \>

All the above -- OBloodyHell 10:08, 15 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Contrary to Gigathrash's assertion, it's not necessarily true that the mentally retarded don't play Guild Wars. I would concur that they don't come to this wiki for information on how to play Guild Wars, however.  :D  Quizzical 05:24, 21 January 2009 (UTC)


 * --<br\>1) I've played enough AB to guarantee you that the mentally retarded DO, indeed, play GW. Chances are, you have, too.<br\>2) I'm sure they come here. They don't always learn more than the most basic rudiments (like pre-made builds and vaguely how to push the buttons to run them), but they come here. That's almost certainly how they got the build they're playing, because they sure didn't come up with it. <br \><br \> So QED, Ipso Facto, and "Bob's your uncle"....;oP --OBloodyHell 16:39, 21 January 2009 (UTC)


 * To the contrary, they go to the official wiki. They can't find this one.  Quizzical 19:46, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * MMMMmmmmm, where are they getting the builds from? Sure, some may be getting them from friends, but at some point someone probably had to go to the PVX subwiki... :oP --OBloodyHell 20:07, 21 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Which is unrelated to this wiki. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  21:03, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You link to it. And it says, I quote: "A GuildWiki fork containing only build articles." The impression is given that it's related to this wiki, even if it's a completely different set of people and all that. And all that is largely irrelevant to the topic at hand. :-9
 * Although they were "born" from our users, and we still link to them, that is largely a historic/sentimental gesture, as they have very litle to do with us. In the past, they linked to our pages for skill information, but they changed that to GWW awhile ago. Sometimes, when we need to make a link to a specific build, we make links to PvX; but this isn't very often. Generally speaking, while we appreciate them for holding back the retardedness which comes along with a builds section, we find PvX to be an unpleasant place. :\
 * To the topic at hand: I'm gonna propose soon a change to the style and formatting guides with the thought in mind "For the enormous cost of about four words, something to the effect of "xxx is a boss version of monster yyy", you call attention to that to those without experience, and even make an astoundingly quick summary for the experienced user going into an area they've not done in a while". You already said you didn't mind the conversation being moved but I just wanted to double-check. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 00:34, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * NP here. Feel free to copy/edit/alter/summarize any of my words on that as a part of any summary, with or without attribution. --OBloodyHell 07:53, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Personal attacks
Hi. Personal attacks like this one are not acceptable. If you continue to personally attack people- especially since I am not the first to notice- you will be blocked.

And we don't keep the information you listen on the Twin Serpent Lakes area because it's true for every area with a Statue of Melandru, and the information on what the bonus does is already listed here. Thanks,  Shadowcrest  21:11, 21 January 2009 (UTC) -- > (stuff like that doesnt need to be noted) 1) See above issues with regards to your own standards. DO THEY APPLY OR NOT???? From what I can see, so far, I've been RUDELY reverted with nothing but a NAYSAY --- TWICE NOW. ARE you BOTHERING to take issue with THAT person's actions and failure to follow  YOUR OWN STANDARDS???? <br \> 2) Well, let's see, since I've been playing the game for a while now, and ***I*** just noted it, DO YA THINK -- just maybe -- that it's not quite visible enough on these pages and that it might be noted in the areas which they appear?<br \> 3) Apparently, you presume that EVERYONE even KNOWs about kneeling before the shrines, which isn't an inherently obvious action, and the only reason I thought of doing it there was because of the behavior in other campaigns.<br \> In short:<br \> a) You fail to call attention to something which someone trying to learn about the game ought to be aware of, and which is FAR from visible. Unless someone specifically looks up shrines (which there isn't any particular reason to do on the surface) there is virtually NO WAY they will learn about kneeeling at shrines and statues. There simply isn't ANY reason to even think about doing it.<br \> b) You've given me crap --- MULTIPLE TIMES--- while ignoring people ALSO clearly and INARGUABLY violating your own guidelines -- in a much more significant way, since the ONLY people aware of "what I'm doing" happen to be reading comments NOT visible to anyone on the site in general. Screwing up someone else's efforts to contribute without justification or explanation? "Hey, NO PROBLEM whatsoever"???? >:-(<br \> As above: Tin plated dictators with delusions of godhood. Stop throwing your weight around at me and start enforcing your own rules for reverts!!! <br \>--OBloodyHell 21:42, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

-<br\> "And we don't keep the information you listen on the Twin Serpent Lakes area because it's true for every area with a Statue of Melandru, and the information on what the bonus does is already listed here." 1) So the pages for locations in nightfall and cantha don't list shrines? Oh, wait, THEY DO! So what is your excuse for not listing defacto shrines with bonuses in the prophecies sections???<br \> 2) If you're arguing with the format, I chose that because it IS that used on the Elona/Cantha pages. EXccuuuuuuuse me for trying to be consistent. Silly me.. <br \> 3) In short, I've been reverted for doing something matching other pages and in blatant violation of guildwiki standards for doing so, just because someone hasn't ever bothered to consider that they're doing things inconsistently? I'm duplicating this over on that page's discussion page. --OBloodyHell 21:50, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * NPA and 1RV are two separate policies. Violation of one does not give you the right to violate another. --JonTheMon 21:54, 21 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Nothing personal, but lay off the caps. It makes your text less readable. Same goes for spamming punctuation. More on topic; imho it isn't a bad note, but should be placed in the Notes section. It's indeed far from obvious to a casual player.
 * Also, the point was not listing what the shrine does, not wether there is a shrine at all. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  21:55, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * (sigh) Viper, if there's nothing to link the user to the fact that they do anything where will they learn this in the first place? You say "point it to a specific location which discusses that particular behavior" -- that's one thing. That's not how it's been done, that's not how it's been handled. No one has called attention to this or bothed to make that change. The revert was just done with another naysaying response.<br \>


 * Jon, stop trying to change the subject:<br \>

1) I didn't claim it did as you suggest.<br \> 2) I am asking if anyone has bothered to say anything at all to the people doing the naysaying reverts. I seriously doubt it.<br \> 3) I have yet to have anyone acknowledge to me that this has been done incorrectly and that I have been given crap for responding to the revert within guildwiki guidelines. So I'm a bit ticked that I'm taking crap when acting within guidelines and others are clearly not.<br \> 4) Sorry, I don't tend to respond to rude people by being polite to them. It doesn't work to justify rude behavior. And no, someone being rude to you because you're being rude back is not covered by that.<br \> 5) "1" and "4" above should not be construed as ignoring the complaint in question, however. I do believe that you all need to discuss amongst yourselves the fact that you've probably not corrected people who are in blatant violation of your expressed standards for reverts, and I'd feel a heck of a lot less desire to snap at such rudeness if I actually believed that issue was taken seriously. I've seen no sign of such an attitude so far. The only person who seems to have taken the argument/complaint even vaguely seriously is Dr. Ishmael, and I believe I've made ample case for the complaint. <br \>--OBloodyHell 22:14, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Have a look at what Jon actually did to the article: he linked to the statue, so that following the link brings you to the information you seek. It is often the case that such compromises escape the people who revert and the people who wrote too much, and that's why we're a community, no? Shit happens, but if you dwell on it, you miss the opportunity to improve. -- ◄mendel► 22:18, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Mendel, my point still is -- what is to give anyone at all any idea that the statue has any benefit other than of it being of visual interest. If I see a link to melandru, all I expect to get told is the background on melandru, not to be given any notion of the shrine behavior when you kneel at it. And my complaint still stands. The explanation given, I quote: "stuff like that doesnt need to be noted" was rude and abrupt and in blatant violation of GWiki standards, as I note in the other section. No explanation of why: "that's covered in the link to melandru, FYI" -- if that had been the case I would have simply gone back and made suitable changes to deal with that, if I still believed it relevant. It was rude, and if someone hasn't commented on this to Gene195, then I'm asking: why not? That's not excusing or arguing in favor of my response, it's saying that so far, I haven't seen anything showing that anyone cares. And if they don't care about proper behavior in one area, by what mental tap dancing are they justifying giving me crap about it in another? --OBloodyHell 22:44, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The underlying issue is redundancy of information. For every single explorable area you could mention what each statue does, what is summons, and what benefit it gives, but that would be overly redundant on each page and clutter those pages. Now, if the issue is "people won't know to interact with the statue," then an option might be to reword it "There is an interactive statue of Melandru...." and if they want to know how to interact, they click the link. And see, if we discuss it we can get to the heart of the problem and come up with a solution. --JonTheMon 22:54, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The quests Family Ties and Wisdom of the Druids both entail kneeling at a shrine to begin the quest. Players who do the quests would learn of kneeling at shrines that way.  As for players who don't do quests, well, you miss some things if you don't do them.  That's their problem.
 * Shrines in other campaigns are sometimes noted for their bounties. Shrines in Prophecies do not offer such bounties.
 * As a general principle, if particular information is true in many different places, it is better to list it once centrally than independently in dozens of places. That prevents cluttering articles unnecessarily.  To list the shrines on an area article and link to the shrine pages would be far less clutter than explaining what a shrine does in every single area with a shrine.
 * The 1RV policy is not a broad ban on reversions. Most edits never get reverted, and for most of the edits that are reverted, the reversion is the end of it.  If you think an edit you made was wrongly reverted, take it to the talk page for that article.  If no one is willing to give an explanation why the revert should have been made within a couple of days, then you can add back the removed information.
 * Many of the times that an edit is reverted, it is because the edit was obvious vandalism. In such cases, there isn't really a need for detailed explanations.  Your edits (at least the ones I've seen) haven't fallen into that category, of course.
 * The problem with your edits in particular is that you're adding some very verbose sections to some heavily viewed and already lengthy articles, with your comments only tangentially relevant. Mission articles have quite enough to cover, and increasing their length substantially can be problematic.  I spent quite a lot of time trying to shorten some bloated articles to make them more readable.
 * It also doesn't help your cause if a comment is worded awkwardly and has various spelling or grammar errors. If a comment isn't of much use to begin with, and obviously needs to be changed considerably, the easiest change is to revert it.  That is perhaps unfortunate, but it is reality.  Quizzical 23:00, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Quizzical, Not everyone does all the side quests. And so far, I've noted at least two statues -- the Melandru one and the one of Grenth in the Foothills of Ascalon which do act just like the shrines do in terms of providing a boon to the player who kneels in return for a fee. Whether they have always done this I have no idea. But I suggest it's worth calling attention to, as the format is different enough (a statue instead of an out and out shrine) that in some fashion or another there ought to be something to call attention to it. It's like the player in the discussion page for the followup to completing the prophecies campaign (droknar's xxx, whatever the title is) who had no idea that the ending "reward" had changed to make it work like the other campaigns, and that he could now get a green item for it. And the boon offerred, 3 regen and 25+ max health, partywide, for only 50gp isn't utterly trivial. Does it need to be done with every statue? No. But it should be mentioned and ideally in such a way that someone casually reading about one of those pages will be encouraged to check the link looking for more information that just a description of melandru or grenth or whatever. The "statue of melandru" isn't a bad idea, since it's at least calling some separate attention to the fact that it's a statue that is of interest and not just melandru. I'd probably suggest a "boon-granting statue of melandru" would help with that quite a bit. It calls attention to the fact that it grants a boon, which will make newbies go "what? statues grant boons?" and follow the link to learn more.
 * I was playing the game for a long while before I was made aware of it, by a friend who had been playing the game since it was first released who had only found out about it themselves a couple months before. The whole kneeling thing is hardly obvious, and probably isn't intended to be. But there ought to be a reasonable set of avenues to make people aware of it. --OBloodyHell 08:18, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, about not knowing about /kneel even though it is the list of emotes (might want to link it to "shrine" there?) is a problem that the game designers need to address.
 * About what gets enforced and what doesn't, yeah, the times I've felt most insulted by on the wiki were reverts, not anything that falls under GW:NPA. I've got no solution, because tin-plated gods are clearly unable to police these kind of insults, and we do have a culture that often tends to think "revert is simpler than improve". Maybe it's because anyone can edit here? The path I've taken is from time to time call that to people's attention, but as you can probably guess it doesn't change much. Some people do try and not simply revert, they explain or improve on the original editor's intention, and I like to think there's more of them than there used to be. Hmm, maybe I should start "policing" that - if policing weren't so boring. Still, however dissatisfied you are, you aren't justified to insult people. -- ◄mendel► 23:23, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Mendel, I'm not talking about knowing about /kneel, but about the special results which happen if you do it before a statue of one of the gods when The Favor of The Gods is with you. The appearance of the avatar and the opportunity to gain various boons in return for a fee. Even if you know enough to do it at shrines, the statues are different enough that you might not think to do it before them.... And I have seen some that don't do anything. The ones in Serenity Temple, for example, do nothing (I think -- now that I've thought about it, I'm not sure what was the state of the Favor of the Gods). Gonna have to check that. --OBloodyHell 08:18, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Firstly, Shadowcrest has never interacted with you in any way before this incident (if I am wrong, please point me to it), and so you singling him out seems rather unfair to me. I also take offense to you labelling my administrators as "tin-plated dictators with delusions of godhood". They are doing their goddamn best, spending their precious free time to help maintain this site, and yet you see fit to attack them. You feel very strongly about being reverted, and are frustrated; well, imagine how it must feel for the sysops to get this kind of unwarranted abuse. They are just as human as you. They make mistakes. They are doing their best to remain be polite and civil.

Secondly, "why aren't you punishing HIM, too?" is not a valid argument and it is completely irrelevant to the discussion, because we are talking about you and your actions. Each case is dealt with separately, and if someone feels a need to bring up the issue with Gene, then they are free to do so. (This includes you.) I have already left a note for Jon; as for Gene, you must be willing to admit that at least he gave an edit summary to justify his actions. Moreover, it was not merely "naysaying" or just an expression of opinion; neither was it a breach of the style and formatting guidelines (as far as I am aware), as it does not specifically say that god shrines are to be listed. Moreover, as Quizzical pointed out above, and as I referenced in my response here, there is a difference between the functionality of the shrines which makes a big case for why Prophecies ones aren't that important/sought after. In light of that, I believe Gene can be forgiven of any wrongdoing, and I will not be involving him in this discussion or issing "equal justice". (It has been decided since some time ago that while bounties are notable enough to merit listing everywhere, god statues are not; this can be brought up for discussion again if you would so wish.)

Thirdly, I understand that you are not in a particularly good mood, and you feel you are being slighted. However, you must consider that all of the editors here do so in good faith, and their ideas and opinions about what are relevant are just as valuable and valid as yours. This wiki is a community effort, and it is through discussion and consensus that content matters are decided. None of the users intended to come across as rude or malicious, and so to imply that they were is fairly hurtful. You say that "I don't usually treat rude people with politeness"; not to get Christian on you, but I would urge you to turn the other cheek and take the high road... even if you do not think they deserve it, treat others as you wish to be treated, and things will go much more smoothly. It never helps to be rude or insulting when you are trying to convince people of your point of view.

On a last note... having said all that, I hope that you are not deterred by these initial rough experiences such that you are turned off from the wiki. We are really quite nice people if you give us a chance, and we appreciate your contributions, small or large as they may be. Everyone is welcome here, and we are glad to have a fresh new user who is enthusiastic to add and expand upon comment. (T/C) 04:27, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

-

Still not listening
1) At no point did I say I was ignoring your concern in this regard. In specific, I made it CLEAR that, although some defensive commentary was made, that I was not meaning that by any sense -- I quote: "5) "1" and "4" above should not be construed as ignoring the complaint in question, however." Despite having made a specific entry to that effect, every single one of you decided, however, that it was necessary to give me MORE crap over it.<br \> 2) I did not single out shadowcrest by any sense. Did you see me refer to him by name? I am, as I have been saying since this crap first started, ticked because you ALL seem to ignore a very specific and fairly clear provision of your own rules and standards. Need I repeat myself on this YET again? "Just see above".<br \> 3) "it is completely irrelevant to the discussion, because we are talking about you and your actions." No, it's not. I wouldn't BE snotty (and I repeat once more, since no one seems able to get it when it's said three times: point friggin' taken) if it weren't for the fact that I'm getting essentially blown off with regards to the OTHER issue, with excuses and "yeah but..."s. THAT's CRAP. <br \> ---<br \> Either enforce your own standards amongst yourselves or stop being a bunch of hypocrites complaining to others about some "other" standard you've decided is somehow "more important". I think at best they are of equal importance. Being rude to someone for no reason is indefensible -- that includes reverts without explanation. Being rude to someone already being rude is at least debatable.<br \> ---<br \> 4) "I also take offense to you labelling my administrators as "tin-plated dictators with delusions of godhood". They are doing their goddamn best, spending their precious free time to help maintain this site, and yet you see fit to attack them. You feel very strongly about being reverted, and are frustrated; "<br \> No, entropy, you still aren't getting it. It's not the reverts. It's the naysaying reverts in complete violation of your own stated rules for making reverts -- see above entries and handwave responses for what it is that has ticked me off. The tpdw/iog remark is tied entirely to this total lack of concern for what is blatantly rude behavior. "We'll do whatever we damnwell please" is the message. "Tin plated dictators w/ delusions of godhood" is a valid interpretation of that attitude.<br \> 5) I grasp that you don't want to take the time to police everyone constantly. But when you note something like that, you SHOULD be just as diligent about placing messages in the user's talk pages as you are if they make personal attacks. And I'm not seeing the slightest sign that ANYONE grasps this. And if someone complains to you about it, you darned sure ought to be taking the complaint seriously, rather than making excuses or blowing off that person. I also don't buy it that casual users revert things all that much. I'd lay odds that more than 95% of the reverts come from a narrow list of people who are more than casual contributors. So policing THEM and encouraging THEM to be polite and considerate of other contributors isn't all that tough. By all means, correct me if that perception is inaccurate.<br \> 6) "we do have a culture that often tends to think "revert is simpler than improve". This, by itself, isn't the issue, but it's generally rude, still. If you're going to revert something, though, you should at least be courteous enough to take the time to make the reason clear, or as clear as can be done in the space allowed for by the comment summary.<br \> 7) In most cases, I would argue you should avoid reverts without copying the offending part to the discussion page. Yeah, it's an additional step, but need not be much more than a simple cut-and-paste, and it leaves the work of the contributor "in view" which encourages discussion, improvement, or adaptation. While reverts don't utterly disappear stuff, they certainly don't leave them out where people are likely to reconsider them or adapt them. Make a standard part of the talk pages "==For Consideration==" and dump anything reverted there, assuming it's a paragraph or sentence and not some giant polemic or massive 10-section modification. And you probably ought to fill in details as to what made it revert-worthy, as well, if the comment wasn't clear. Every once in a while, you clear that out if nothing's been done with it after 3-4 months or whatever.<br \> '''Again: it's not the reverts. It's the manner it's done in, and the casual way my complaints about this are getting blown off that are the issue.''' --OBloodyHell 07:45, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * As a casual observer, I think things are getting blown WAY out of proportion with this issue. It's been my observation that in most cases where something is reverted, there is a short explanation given in the comments area.  Maybe people forget to put it in there - it happens.  It seems more like you're taking the "naysaying" very personally, and martyring yourself over something that really shouldn't be an argument at all (a discussion yes, but civilized and not accusatory).  This creates an unhealthy environment, both for the relationship between yourself and the sysops, and for the Wiki community overall.  You don't have to like the sysops and you are more than welcome to question any practices that you see as "breaking the rules," but doing so in a constructive fashion gives better results than above.  There's an old saying about attracting more flies with honey than with vinegar, after all.  These are just my observations, of course.  Jink  12:59, 22 January 2009 (UTC)


 * If you make a comment on an article's talk page, rather than in mainspace, it won't be reverted.
 * I once read an article about someone who tried catching flies both with honey and with vinegar and found that vinegar was more effective. Quizzical 18:07, 22 January 2009 (UTC)