User talk:Lann/PoS's

Ìf you feel any Elite PoS is added without it being shit, discuss here. Be bold and add PoS's yourself --- -- (s)talkpage 06:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * We don't have a BOLD policy. We badly need one though --Gimmethegepgun 06:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Uhu --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]]-- (s)talkpage 06:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * WHAT!? A Wiki without a BOLD POLICY!?!?! That is the wiki motto!--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] Lann 06:22, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Go here and voice your opinion then. -- Shadow crest   05:46, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Done!
Woo, finished! I got most of em --Gimmethegepgun 06:38, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * hey. Check this out. http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Elementalist_skills_quick_reference#Water_Magic --[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] Lann 06:48, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Heh...you have most of the obvious ones, but some of these I can't help but disagree on. Don't feel like bringing up the same old arguments again, though, I've done it too many times :P (T/C) 06:56, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Not all of them added by me. Alot added by other users. Feel free to discuss :D. That is what this talk page is for!--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] Lann 06:58, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * And by "other users", naturally it means me :P --Gimmethegepgun 07:04, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Of course. Gimmethegepgun is the only other user on guildwiki :P--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] Lann 07:07, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, only you, me, and Viper added skills to this (MP did, but it wasn't an elite so I removed it), and I added about half of them --Gimmethegepgun 07:09, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Lol. Poor MP...--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] Lann 07:10, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * :( --[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 07:12, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Let me revise my assessment: This list sucks. You people /fail miserably except for the most obvious bad skills. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:58, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you're treating Cruel Spear unfairly. Don't forget it has very high bonus damage for a spear attack, and the Deep Wound is applied even when the attack doesn't hit. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 08:00, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * But what is better. Vicious attack + GftE (which is on most para) or Elite slot. I didn't add it :P--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] Lann 08:02, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I removed a bunch. Cruel spear needs to become unconditional though :/--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] Lann 08:04, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * If you do not feel a skill needs to be in there, DISCUSS!--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] Lann 08:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * But I'd end up writing essays. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:08, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Then do so. It'll be fun. I hope you don't group Mind Blast with the other Mind skills, btw. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 08:10, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Hell noes lol.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] Lann 08:41, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

(RI)Well, Wounding Strike's removal can be discusses, I personally think it belongs here, however why did you remove PnH? --Gimmethegepgun 15:37, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * lol, "ends if you blink" --Gimmethegepgun 19:01, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Hmm
We need to decide what we are going off of. Wounding strike is used in many 5.0 builds on pvx. Ride the lightning has one AB/RA build. Where should we draw the line?-- Lann 19:05, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Wounding Strike = gud. RtL phails :P --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]]-- (s)talkpage 19:18, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * RtL RA/TA/AB build got a 4.12 :P--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] Lann 19:24, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Everything works in RA/AB, and TA is lamefest --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]]-- (s)talkpage 19:24, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * It would be overpowered without exhaustion though. I can see it now... Ride the Lightning assassins. 10 second recharge abuse rofl.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] Lann 19:25, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Hehehe. It should be: If you are not a Priamry Ele, you suffer from instant energy drain. Period. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]]-- (s)talkpage 19:27, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok. What is the reasoning?--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] Lann 19:30, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Not spammable due to exhaustion, not all that much dmg. Ele frontliner? lulz --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]]-- (s)talkpage 19:31, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I had an amazing sin build once with Ride the Lightning, Shock, and Gale. I could drop one target... per game. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 19:32, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I dunno, Kunvie Firewing uses RtL pretty well. --Ruricu [[Image:SoD2.jpg|Shield of Deflection is purty!]] ( Talk • Contribs) 19:35, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Well it's not the best elite out there. But it isn't L.A.M.E., compared to skills like Archer's Signet.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] Lann 19:35, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Kunvie has al of about 80 and deals 200 damage with it, no shit sherlock, also he has 10 energy regen and 27 energy storage with full radiant insignias and a +20 staff.--[[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg]]ìğá†ħŕášħ  Talk^Cont 05:49, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Hax.--[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 05:52, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * But srsly, Kunvie is strong, but shes a boss. Oni > Saltspray dragon in terms of power. --<font face="vivaldi" size="3"> Shadow crest   05:53, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I lawl at Oni. With H/H the dragons are immensely powerful, but Oni are pathetic --Gimmethegepgun 06:01, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

= Improvements = Should we make an improvements section :D-- <font color="#900020">Lann 21:43, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Improvements are based on attributes rank of 0...12...15.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:01, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * DISCUSS!!!--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:26, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * And let me know if any of these improvements seem unfair/overpowered. Just leave a message.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:27, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * For those confused >.>, these effects are added to the skills, unless otherwise specified.[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 13:25, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Magehunter's Smash
I think the following improvements should be made to this skill: -- <font color="#900020">Lann 05:14, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * This attack cannot be blocked.


 * An unblockable knockdown for 4 adren would be immensely overpowered. Just give it some nice unconditional bonus damage, imo. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 06:22, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * lol what? how about irresistable blow? lol. 6 second recharge! And this is an elite.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:21, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * That's doesn't knock down if it's NOT blocked; you can't depend on it at all. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 06:22, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Nope. But better than its old effect. Good vs Protection monks. It would creat a unique build. This skill is practically unlinked anyway >.>. Most hammer attacks can do without bonus damage (most hammer attacks have none).--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:25, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * It wouldn't create a unique build, it would create a new cookie-cutter build. A 4-adren unconditional unblockable knockdown would be far too powerful, end of story. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 06:29, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I get what your saying. Would it be fair if it cost 6 adrenaline? (Like hammerbash, but this does not cause you to lose all adrenaline).--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:38, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I just realized you didn't change it to always cause knockdown; that being the case, your original idea was fine, and I apologize for being a loser. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 06:40, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * So... I was right? :D. I don't think your a loser, I think you were trying to make this skill fair. Blocking protection monks will just have to learn to watch themselves >:D.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:43, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't understand - do you want to keep the skill as is and just add these changes? If so, then it would become pretty useful. Unblockable KD on any Enchanted target is certainly Elite-worthy, especially at the low cost of 4 Adrenaline - only Counter Blow rivals that, and it is iffy unless you're a linebacker. You could probably keep a single targer knocked down indefinitely with this, if it was changed the way you want.
 * I think that it definitely needs the Unblockable part - a huge deal of Enchantments in PvP and even PvE deal with blocking and so Magehunter's Smash has always been a pretty meh skill. 4 Adrenaline may be too low, since with "For Great Justice!", an IAS, and something like Mark of Fury you could spam it pretty much indefinitely, especially with Stonefist. That's too powerful. I would keep the Adrenaline cost as is, and perhaps give it some small +damage, like +1...10 or so.
 * Another idea is to make it an Energy-based skill. It could also be like Lion's Comfort and have 4 Adrenaline...but then a 1-second recharge. Both those would balance the easy KD ability and go some ways towards preventing infinite KD chains. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes I am adding these effects. But I think giving it damage would make it to overpowered (Like Felix said, it would make a cookie cutter build in pvp). This would be more of a linebacker build, leaned toward casters instead of melee. Hammer's have high base damage anyhow, and this would knockdown without losing all adrenaline. It would definitely make a neat build.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 13:27, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Well counter blow has 4 adrenal cost. Sure it can be blocked, but it is not an elite. Besides that point, you do not see people using FGJ and a ias and counterblow together to keep assassins/other physical attackers down infinitly. Should this be changed to "if target foe was casting a spell, they are knocked down"? --[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 17:26, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Counter Blow is useless against casters and moderately easy to avoid for a good attacker, while Magehunter's is useful on almost all classes because everyone loves party-wide enchants in PvP - and can't be stopped easily. This + FGJ + IAS can keep someone down infinitely at 4 Adren, basically indefinitely unless they have self-enchant-removal or it expires...Counter Blow can do no such thing if your enemy is at all smart. I think it needs an adrenal cost of maybe 6. Or, 4 Adrenaline and 1 second recharge. Still powerful stuff but 4 Adrenaline alone is too good. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Ceart. Back to 5 adrenaline it goes.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 15:14, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Incendiary Arrows
I think the following improvements should be made to this skill: -- <font color="#900020">Lann 05:19, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Increase energy cost to 15.
 * Increase duration to 24 seconds.
 * Reduce recharge to 12 seconds.
 * Remove interuption effect, change burn duration to 1...4...5 seconds.


 * I hope you mean to 1...4...5, rather than by 1..4..5. And if you did, this would make Burning Arrow inferior in every way I can think of except with BA you can have another preparation. --<font face="vivaldi" size="3"> Shadow crest   05:33, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Oops :P. Sry, bad wording. At least someone is looking at my work :D. I am trying to make these skills usable, but not overpowered.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 05:58, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Incendiary Arrows is a great skill. It suffers from a lower duration/recharge ratio than most, but the effect is so deadly that it honestly needs that to be balanced. Constant, unconditional Burning and Interruption? This skill is murder under IAS.
 * Your suggested change is bad. The interruption part is really the saving grace of Incendiary Arrows. Without that, it just becomes an inferior, elite Apply Poison.
 * To make this skill more popular, it could use a slight tweak of duration/recharge ratio. But it can never be 24 seconds, because that would just make it way too powerful. If it was 24 seconds, then I would reduce the Burning to 1 second and add in some +Fire damage to compensate. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Apply poison deals 120 damage in its length of poison at attribute 15. This would deal 112. This would deal damage faster, but would take up the slot of an elite, along with this skill being less spreadable. This can also be compared to Mark of Rodgort and a fire bow. Except only you can set them on fire. You would have to combine this with Poison Tip Signet or Screaming Shot to reach the degen of Burning Arrow + Apply Poison has (Burning Arrow also has + damage, while this just sets them on fire).--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 13:33, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Flame Barrager is a very different concept and relies on actually hitting multiple targets at once, over and over again. Degen spreaders hit single targets, once, and move on.
 * Burning Arrow outclasses most Marksmanship elites for damage, but it is a bad Elite because it lacks utility. It deals heavy degen and damage to one target when combined with Spread, but the 5-second recharge makes it less than spreadabe.
 * Incendiary's biggest draw is the unconditional interruption. You really have to factor in that unique part. It is not for spreading - it is for single target lockdown. Only comparable is Choking Gas for spells. Warmonger's Weapon and the other one, will also work, but are not so great on a Ranger as on a melee attacker due to slower attack speeds. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * So, your saying you would rather have a 13 sec prep that cannot be relied on for interupt (blocking, etc) and that cannot be kept up all the time. Magebane Shot > this. This will only lock down a target half the time, and only if the arrows hit and your under an ias will you might be able to interupt a majority of their skills. The problem with this skill is its short duration which makes it utterly useless. --[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 15:40, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Magebane Shot is crappy. You may as well Echo Dshot. You would also have to be an idiot to use Incendiary against foes that block. Use Arcane Mimicry to grab Practiced Stance and this can be kept up forever; with SQ it lasts a reasonable amount of time as well. The flaws you are pointing out are when this skill isn't used smartly. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * And most people won't use it because they don't know how to use it smartly :P--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * People still don't use this. How do you suggest it should be improved?--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Amity
I think the following improvements should be made to this skill: -- <font color="#900020">Lann 05:24, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Decrease duration to 5...15...17
 * Change effect to: target foe cannot attack.


 * Isn't this the same as Pacifism except with a longer recharge and without the "no damage" clause? --<font face="vivaldi" size="3"> Shadow crest   06:12, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * It does not end if they take damage anymore with this effect. Different from binding chains and pacifism.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:20, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Too powerful with any decent cover hexing. Think of the farming applications >.> I think Amity, Pacifism, and Binding Chains are all too niche to ever be really useful...sure, Binding Chains is a decent snare. But the other two are just bad skills. Pacifism has an ungodly recharge, and Amity is a Protection elite. Why would you ever waste that? Prot has ZB, SoD, SoR, LB...too much good stuff to pass up.
 * I think that if they changed Amity to "in the area", then it may see some use. But otherwise I don't see it ever being viable. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * It's a hex. Can be removed. Lasts 1/4 of it's recharge. Takes up an elite slot.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 13:35, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * And monsters that use weapons have hex removal since when...? Sskai, Wing, Tundoss, etc.? No really. It is too powerful for HM and things like The Norn Fighting Tournament. Don't forget Glyph of Swiftness or Arcane Echo. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * And I am pretty sure they last 1/2 the duration. A monk to give up his elite to keep a HM boss down for 10 seconds? Most of these skill changes are for pvp, not for pve. And don't bring factions up on me. It has about as much pve content as the isle of the nameless. --[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 15:40, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Try again, Natural resistance only applies to Prophecies bosses and the most powerful EotN bosses (and a few special cases like Shiro). Therefore your argument is moot. This could be strong in PvP, but only against imbalanced teams. 8 Amity Monk vs 8 Warriors would be epic. :) [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * But it is only good vs melee/phys. Has no effect on offense/casters etc. So, what do you suggest?--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Strike as One
I think the following improvements should be made to this skill: -- <font color="#900020">Lann 05:24, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Change effect to: For 30 seconds, you and your pet's attacks deal +4...9...10 damage.


 * If this skill was a preparation it would need a cast time, and it would also disallow other preparations. That's not much of an improvement. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 06:14, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, its a prep in beast mastery, and all preps have 2 second cast (I thought that was common sense). Allows for a unique build. If you both have an ias, it would deal alot of pressure damage, but not exactly spike damage (Never Rampage Alone comes to mind). At least it's better than its old effect.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:24, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Some preps, Glass Arrows for example, have an additional delay after the cast time. Most, like Read the Wind, do not. Maybe that is what he meant.
 * The mathematics have been done countless times, and no matter what build you run, SaO is always inferior to RaO (yes, even after all the nerfs) for dealing damage and especially utility. While the idea behind SaO is alright...it's a passive Skill that may be used at any time for a decent damage increase...it needs some tweaking. SaO does pressure damage, not spike damage. Rangers have poor DPS in general, and even the best BM builds (R/P Pack Hunter for example) lack in DPS compared to the simplest Warrior or Paragon builds. This is why pure Beastmasters are generally shunned in PvP and PvE...there are just better builds, and it is really only the psychological factors which ever give BMs a real advantage.
 * I think that for its minimal Energy cost (remember Expertise), SaO does good armor-ignoring damage. But, what it needs for improvement is either to deliver that damage faster...say, double the +damage and halve strikes, duration, and recharge...or to make it a lot longer and much more passive. You could, for example, have it give +0...3 damage over 200 seconds for the next 65 strikes or something. SaO is too middle-of-the-road and unfocused as is. It needs to be more purely spike or pressure oriented. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmm. How about this?--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 17:36, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * No strikes limit? Total bonus damage goes into the stratosphere with IAS for both of you. +300 damage for pet and 300...600 for you, or more. Ouch. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I still think it as a prep is best but you guys shot that idea down like it was a russian spy plane.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 15:40, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * We did? I didn't comment on that...SaO as a prep wouldn't be such a great idea because of Read the Wind as the universal damage ranger's prep (except Glass Arrows). Unless SaO made your arrows unblockable, then it would still be inferior...you could only use a Shortbow or Recurve Bow. Part of the beauty of a pet is having a melee attacker and a Flatbow-range attacker at the same time. Plus, SaO as a skill + RtW = double bonus damage. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * As a prep, you would still get 2x the damage of read the wind, and you could allocate less points in marksmanship. This skill is tricky.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Balthazar's Pendulum
I have no clue how this skill should be improved O.o

I think the following improvements should be made to this skill: -- <font color="#900020">Lann 05:29, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Change effect to: Next time target ally would be knocked down by a foe, that foe is knocked down instead and takes 30...150...180 damage.
 * Increase recharge to 8 seconds.


 * There are only a very few niche situations where people have made good use of BP, and that is almost always in PvP when you're a prO Monk and spot the spike before it happens.
 * However, BP is almost always thrown in the gutter by...Ward of Stability, Steady Stance, Balanced Stance, "Don't Trip!", and a number of other skills. Plus, it's Elite.
 * Your suggested damage is really, really high, and would cause the skill to be instandly FotM. However, it's a nice idea, and may actually make this skill useful. Personally, I believe the skill would benefit most if it also triggered on self-inflicted KDs, such as Desperation Blow. That would make it usable. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Well with this, mabye people will actually use it now. It is good vs assassins.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 17:37, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * So are lots of other, non-elite things :( Smiting needs more love always, but 180 is...a bit high. That is even more than Ray of Judgment or Judge's Intervention. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Conditional damage is too high hmm. Sounds like (Judge's Intervention).And no, it is to the damage scale of Judge's.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 15:40, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The requirement is much easier and safer to achieve. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * But people would use it :P--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Healer's Covenant
This is way outclassed by Healer's Boon.

I think the following improvements should be made to this skill: or or -- <font color="#900020">Lann 05:38, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Remove "your healing Spells heal for 25% less Health" effect.
 * Allow Heroes to maintain this on their own.
 * Change upkeep to: For 10...46...55 seconds, your healing Spells heal for 25% less Health, but cost -1...3...3 Energy.
 * Allow heroes to maintain this on their own.
 * Add effect: Your healing Spells recharge 25% faster.
 * Allow Heroes to maintain this on their own.


 * Heroes can't maintain ANYTHING on their own, but it is quite easy to make them. Its easier to disable their skill thhan rework their AI. [[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]]<font color="#4682b4">Entrea Sumatae  <font color="#4682b4">[Talk]  06:05, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * They do maintain a few skills by themselves, and I believe Healer's Boon used to be one of those. Also, I don't really think that should count as an improvement to make it less suckish, but just something ANet should fix because its stupid and almost a bug-worthy mechanic imo. --<font face="vivaldi" size="3"> Shadow crest   06:08, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes I hate that mechanic ALOT. I think this would work well with heroes, how they love to spam skills. Also, heroes WILL maintain Healer's Boon always, even when not in battle and idle. --[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:34, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * They do maintain a few skills by themselves, and I believe Healer's Boon used to be one of those. Also, I don't really think that should count as an improvement to make it less suckish, but just something ANet should fix because its stupid and almost a bug-worthy mechanic imo. --<font face="vivaldi" size="3"> Shadow crest   06:08, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Since HB is no longer a maintained Enchantment, Heroes should have no problems using it...
 * Healer's Covenant has never made sense to me. It is the Monk equivalent of Expert's Dexterity - a useless Energy management skill which requires far too much investment in other counter-balancing skills to make it worthwhile. And there are just better elites out there. In my opinion...the concept behind Covenant is alright, but it is just too clunky to be effective in practive. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Still needs to be fixed.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 15:40, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Martyr
Outclassed by Cautery Signet and Draw Conditions

I think the following improvements should be made to this skill: -- <font color="#900020">Lann 05:53, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Change skill from Unlinked to Protection Prayers.
 * Change cast time to 1/4 second.
 * Change effect to: Transfer all Conditions and their remaining durations from your allies to you. For each condition acquired, you gain 6...22...26 health. (Maximum duration of conditions 10 seconds).


 * Draw is alright, but requires a higher level of skill than most typical Monks have if you want to make it effective. It also has nothing on Martyr or Cautery Signet or even Extinguish when you really need a party-wide Condition removal - for example, when someone uses Fevered Dreams and DW or Cripple or Dazes the entire party. Draw is useless then.
 * Martyr is not necessarily outclassed by Cautery Signet. Cautery Signet has a 2-second cast time, which makes it very easy to interrupt. There are also a lot of popular Signet counters in PvP (where you're most likely to use it), such as Ignorance, that can destroy Cautery. Moreover, sometimes it can be beneficial to have more than just Burning applied to you. For example, if you are countering party-wide Blindness, Martyr wins, since Blind does nothing to a Monk. Sure, you can quickly followup with Condition removal to cure the X seconds of Burning, but you'll still be taking damage and using two skill slots where one would suffice. Also, there are tons of combinations with condition-transfer skills like Plague Signet (Necro use Arcane Mimicry).
 * Martyr is usually better than Cautery Signet for a non-Monk/non-Paragon class elite. For example, if you have a W/Mo. Using two-second Cautery Signet at melee range is just asking for interruption. Martyr to clear the backline of Daze and stuff, followed by Purge Signet or Mending Touch, takes roughly the same time as Cautery Signet with less chance of interruption, more utility, and more synergy too. (Few Para skills good on Warrior, many Monk ones OK).
 * To use Purge with no downsides, you need to be E/P or P/E and use Frigid Armor. This is a pretty blah class combination and not great synergy. Also, with regards to transfer skills, it is true that you could potentially transfer the max 30 seconds of Burning through a P/N or N/P combo...but, who cares? No PvP Monk is going to sit for 30 seconds and let your Burning deal full damage anyways. Burning (and all the degen conditions) work best when spread on a group anyways...and the transfer skills are all adjacent range only, unless you can combo with Fevered Dreams. But that's risky for little real benefit.
 * Tbh I could never understand why everyone thought "Cautery Signet is automatically better than Martyr" because it's just not true. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Same. Though I think this skill is outclassed by more direct spike prevention skills, such as restore condition. Should I remove the "maximum duration of conditions 10 seconds" effect?--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 13:41, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * RC is staple stuff, even more so now that SoD and ZB are less popular. Active Monk ftw! I think your change would make Martyr more appealing to Monks, but Monks aren't usually the ones using it because there are better Elites. It would have little change to Warriors and stuff. Meh, why not. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yay! Now we will be having Martyr Wammos :D. Martyr Paladin ftw.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 15:40, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Cruel Spear
I think the following improvements should be made to this skill: -- <font color="#900020">Lann 05:57, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Change effect to: If this attack hits, you deal +1...25...31 damage. If target foe was bleeding, that foe suffers from Deep Wound for 5...17...20 seconds.


 * So essentially, you'd like it to be Eviscerate with a spear. I say Cruel Spear is an excellent skill; the ability to deal deep wound through blind or block is extremely useful, it has good bonus damage, and it's 7 adren. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 06:11, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Only down side is in pvp. Foes are often moving. Deep wound from this skill can not be relied on in pvp. Adrenaline is gained slower through a spear (normally, spear has a 1.5 sec attack speed, axe 1.33 sec attack speed.)--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:32, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * And so you would increase adrenaline cost... why? [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 06:35, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * For unconditional deepwound.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:36, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Cruel Spear is the strongest non-conditional Spear Attack in the game, and spears have Sword DPS level just auto-attacking. High damage and easy Deep Wound make this a powerful skill for an offensively-oriented Paragon. Granted, in the Paragon's ideal role as party support, this is a bad skill. But, it is not absolutely horrific if used as intended.
 * The requirement for not moving isn't hard to meet, even in PvP. The fact that it causes DW even through Block or Miss is outstanding, to be honest. Finally - DW at range is always close to Elite-worthy, tbh. Notice how Rangers never got it in any form. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * So how should this skill be changed? More adrenaline? or Less damage?--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 13:43, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * 10 Adrenaline and somewhere in the 40 damage range at 15 would be more appealing. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Wait. I have an idea. How about this?--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 15:40, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that only Barbed Spear causes Bleeding in the Paragon line. But, that seems like a pretty good change. And it would still hit through Block or Miss. :) [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I thought it was good too. Like sever+gash, they would have barbed+cruel combo. Also use it as a cover conditon :D. My other idea (Idk if you can read it below) was that if it hits a moving target, that foe is knocked down. So it would be like bull's strike for paragon.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Cruel Spear Doesn't Need to be Improved.
K. 23:48, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Now it's garbage. Elite Gash? [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 19:18, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * With +damage and range? --<font face="vivaldi" size="3">Shadowcrest 19:20, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Bleeding req is better than non-moving. Still applies dw through blocking, and it can inflict dw on moving targets. Also does more dmg then gash.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 20:55, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree. You don't need a second skill to meet the non-moving req. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 20:58, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * All I am hearing is no, that sucks. No that does not work. No, your wrong. I do not see anyone suggesting anything. How do YOU think it should be fixed? This pales in comparison of Eviscerate.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 21:06, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I still maintain that Cruel Spear doesn't need to be fixed. It's a _GOOD_ skill. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 21:08, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * It does need to be fixed. No one uses Cruel Spear over Vicious Attack and GftE. Those two are even non-elite, no reason to even use this.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 21:10, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * That's also two skills, which don't guarantee a deep wound. Even with 16 in Command and Spear Mastery, you'd still fall short of 100%. I prefer not to take chances in PvP. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 21:14, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * And if your target is moving? You have a 0% chance to get a DW, unless they stop. --<font face="vivaldi" size="3">Shadowcrest 21:16, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * And if they don't stop, they can't take any action, so you have the advantage anyway. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 21:17, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * In a spike your target is probably going to be kiting anyway, and unless its a monk they don't have to stop during a spike. Also, Vicious+GftE is 2 non-elite skills. --<font face="vivaldi" size="3">Shadowcrest 21:21, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * And if you must spike something, ought it not be the monk? [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 21:23, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, shadow is correct. Plus, why waste an elite when you could bring a more useful one like Stunning Strike. Vicious + GftE is meta, and atm, you will never see Cruel Spear.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 21:24, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * In HA? Monks are rarely the first target, other people usually over-extend themselves or we'd get caught in a chokepoint and blasted with AoE if we tried to get to the back to kill a monk. --<font face="vivaldi" size="3">Shadowcrest 21:26, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Cruel spear is fine. On spikes (where you use it), you can KD targets, and people do have to stop to cast things like aegis, rodgorts, <insert 2 sec cast time skill here>, etc. Buffing it makes it a ranged eviscerate, and that's a bad idea. Lord of all tyria 21:27, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * (reverse indent, double edit conflict) Meta != effective. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 21:29, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Kinda, but if a skill/combo/build wasn't effective, it wouldnt be meta =/ --<font face="vivaldi" size="3">Shadowcrest  21:30, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Wait. How are you supposed to knock down with a spear?--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 21:32, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Never Spike Alone. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 21:35, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * We are talking about a spear attack. Not team builds.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 21:38, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * You just disqualified yourself from any discussion on balance. Lord of all tyria 21:41, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Arguing and not suggesting anything is not getting anywhere.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 21:46, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I've already said why this shouldn't be buffed. Paragons are imba as a class, there is no need whatsoever to give them ranged eviscerates as well. Lord of all tyria 21:48, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * How about this: "If this attack hits, you deal +1...25...31 damage. If it hits a non-moving target, that foe suffers from Deep Wound for 5...17...20 seconds. If that foe was moving, that foe is knocked down." And I never said buff, I said improve. [[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 21:49, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Buffing is improving. It doesn't need to be. Lord of all tyria 21:51, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Fine. You don't think it needs to be. Then why are you on this dicussion page again?--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 21:52, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * To a) argue against it being on this list. And b) hopefully let you understand the game. Lord of all tyria 21:53, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * A majority of the people believe this skill needs to be improved.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 21:54, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Funny that a majority of people also suck. Coincidence? Lord of all tyria 21:55, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * If a majority of people suck, is it the safe to assume you suck?-Redhandsgw
 * I'm ok at the game. Not a total failure, not brilliant. Lord of all tyria 22:01, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Assume Good Faith.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 22:02, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * GW:AGF- we have an AGF policy too Lann :P --<font face="vivaldi" size="3">Shadowcrest  22:03, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I usually go by original wiki fundamentals.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 22:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * So how is AGF relevant here? Lord of all tyria 22:05, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * How can you say the majority of people believe it needs to be improved? So far, it's just been you saying it needs to be improved, and everyone else either disagreeing or talking about spiking in general. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 22:07, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

It is a ranged dw. It needs to be conditional. But it does not do anything special if it hits a moving target.-- <font color="#900020">Lann 22:10, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * If you do not think this skill needs to be improved, you do not even need to be here.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 22:10, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Make another sub-title reasoning why it does not need to be improved.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 22:11, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * And also, I did not know Felix an Tyria were a majority of the people here. I am trying to assume you have good faith, but your making it rather difficult.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 22:49, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * If by "here," you mean this page, then yes, there are more people saying it doesn't need to be improved than there are people saying it does. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 23:21, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I did not know Felix + Tyria was > Lann+Shadowcrest+Entropy. Are one of you a siamese twin?--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 23:29, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Entropy: "The requirement for not moving isn't hard to meet, even in PvP. The fact that it causes DW even through Block or Miss is outstanding, to be honest. Finally - DW at range is always close to Elite-worthy, tbh. Notice how Rangers never got it in any form." Sounds like she's agreeing with us, not with you. And Shadow never said the skill needed improvement, he just said this skill isn't used in the meta, and then talked about spikes for a little while. In other words, it's 3:1 us. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 23:32, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * "Granted, in the Paragon's ideal role as party support, this is a bad skill"--Entropy. Why did you not read all she said?--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 23:36, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, my apologies. Your changes will definitely make it very effective for a support paragon. Obviously I only quoted the part that applies to this discussion. No support paragon will be taking a Spear Attack as an elite anyway. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 23:40, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * So, from what you have stated, Warriors do not support the party? Stunning Strike is a spear attack. It does support the party by temporarily shutting down the enemy monk. But I am guessing that is not important.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 23:45, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * And as I said above, make another sub-section on this talk page please. This is for where the people who think this needs to be improved can discuss how it should be improved.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 23:45, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Support = Backline. Stunning Strike is crap anyways, nerfed too much. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I would also like to clarify that while I think Cruel Spear is fine as is, the suggested change is also okay. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:23, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Reading this made me cry at the state of GW PvE players. Cruel Spear is one of the best elites in the game simply because it's a ranged version of eviscerate Blue.rellik 10:22, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
 * To bad pvp does not see it that way. It will never be used when GftE and Vicious Attack are available. Period.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 16:05, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Gust
I think the following improvements should be made to this skill: -- <font color="#900020">Lann 06:03, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Change effect to: Target foe is struck for 10...54...65 cold damage and is knocked down for 2 seconds.


 * This is a long debated skill on GWW as well. People compare it to Gale. Which would you prefer: Conditional Elite knockdown with meh damage, or spammable unconditional knockdown with exhaustion and no damage? It is hard to say, really. The main problem with Gust is that, like Steam or Arc Lightning or any other of the two-attribute-split-required skills, the total effect is just too meh. For wasting two skill slots and an elite, you get a KD every 10 seconds or so. Not that great. You may as well run Mind Shock, which is actually fairly deadly and the only other worthy Mind besides Mind Blast. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * But like this, this skill would be a damage form of Gale, with no exhaustion.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 17:15, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Like this, Gust would be moderately useful, but I think most people would still use Gale for its spammability. Is a 10-recharge, meh damage KD worth your Elite slot, even if it is unconditional? [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * No exhaustion. You could use them both :D--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 15:40, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Overkill I guess, but yeah. Gust still needs some sort of additional effect before it becomes popular in any form of play. (except 1v1 >.>) [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:23, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

"The Power Is Yours!"
I think the following improvements should be made to this skill: -- <font color="#900020">Lann 06:07, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Reduce recharge to 10 seconds.
 * Change effect to: For 10 seconds, all party members within earshot gain +1...3...3 Energy regeneration and you suffer from -12 Energy degeneration.


 * Song of Power > that. How about changing the effect to "Lose all energy. All allies gain 0...1...2 energy for each point of energy you lost." [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 06:17, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Well they can use skills with this. Hmm.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:19, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * This also can technically be used 3 times as often as Song of Power. --[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:28, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * This is a very difficult skill to use effectively. It's certainly not your average PvE/PUG material...to be a good skill (and it is), you need to catch as many allies as possible. When you get, say, 12 allies, that is a HUGE amount of Energy restored. Paras have a lot of good E-management (Leadership) and have Adrenaline skills to boot, so if you know what you're doing this skill isn't so bad. I think it just seems bad because there are a limited number of situations where it is effective to use, and not many players are good enough to use it well. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * It would be a kind of a BiP paragon. Would be better than how it currently is.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 17:15, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I actually have a BiP/Motivation paragon build, which is a far more effective battery than a necro will ever be. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 19:20, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Of course any build is going to be better than BiP compared to BiP alone. GJ for noticing that.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 22:13, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Ty. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 22:19, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * A paragon could return more energy because of his energy return skills. All a necro has to go by is his BiP. A paragon could use both. So your saying I should improve this skill in comparison to BiP?--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 22:23, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * No, I'm saying that making it an energy regen skill is a bad idea. Giving a set amount of energy immediately is what makes this skill unique in the first place. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 23:21, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * But does not make it any better. And as you even said above, you use BiP over this.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 23:59, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Avatar of Grenth
I have no clue how this skill should be improved O.o

I think the following improvements should be made to this skill: -- <font color="#900020">Lann 06:16, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Increase energy cost to 25.
 * Increase duration to 10...58...70 seconds.
 * Change effect to: Your attacks deal cold damage and steal 3...13...16 health from foes, and whenever you lose an enchantment, all adjacent foes lose 1 enchantment.


 * This skill's functionality is just fine, it has simply been nerfed in duration/recharge too heavily to be viable anymore. Even with Eternal Aura, this avatar is moderately difficult to keep up. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * They nerfed it through its overpoweredness on monks. It was a cookie cutter skill. This changes the functionality to more of a spike build, while still allowing enchant removal but not as effectively. A 30-40 second avatar is just not useful.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 17:15, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * May as well use Winds of Disenchantment or something...meh. That is a huge lifesteal, though. Hmm. 25E screams for disable/E-denial/something though :) [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * You would still get the huge lifesteal :D. Zealous Renewal. The disenchantment thing is just a bonus. I went off the Avatar Of Grenth skill in the snowball fights xD.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 15:40, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Mind Burn
I think the following improvements should be made to this skill: -- <font color="#900020">Lann 06:46, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Increase recharge to 10 seconds.
 * Increase energy cost to 10.
 * Remove exhaustion.


 * Still inferior to Rodgort's Invocation, but then again almost everything in the Fire line is. Mind Burn is just bad, and I don't think it can be saved unless it was 5 Energy, no Exhaustion, +100 bonus damage, 10 seconds burning, and 20 recharge. Or something. It just got left behind. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok I changed it. How about this?--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 17:15, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * That would make Cynn happy. Still don't think it's worth using, but yeah...hard skill to balance. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Mind Shock
I think the following improvements should be made to this skill: -- <font color="#900020">Lann 06:46, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Increase recharge to 10 seconds.
 * Increase energy cost to 15.
 * Remove exhaustion.


 * No. Mind Shock is perfectly fine as is. It's the only Mind elite other than Mind Blast which is viable. Mind Shock deals high damage, pretty much unconditional KD, and it should be the only Exhaustion skill on your bar. Leave it. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Changed it. This skill has a conditional knockdown, so I see it as needs to be comparable to say, Lightning Surge. Does not give on demand knockdowns, but will make it more flexible.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 17:15, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Surge is absolute crap, though, with shit damage (for Air) and unreliable KD. Not to mention zero utility. Any PvP Aeromancer can tell you that got left behind in the metagame ages ago. It used to have Exhaustion too, so it is slightly better now, but still bad. Mind Shock far surpasses it in all ways. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Except exhaustion and conditional knockdown, most would take Gale over this and another elite.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 15:40, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Since when is it hard for an Elementalist to meet the condition of Mind Shock? Gale is for Ele secondaries anyways. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * A lot of people use B-Surge and Gale.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:05, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Mind Freeze
I think the following improvements should be made to this skill: -- <font color="#900020">Lann 06:46, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Increase recharge to 10 seconds.
 * Increase energy cost to 15.
 * Remove exhaustion.


 * The problem with Mind Freeze is that a 90% snare is not noticeably more effective than the usual 33/50/66% snares. It has never really made sense. Water Magic isn't known for high damage, either...even with Vapor Blade and Shatterstone. So this one is tricky to improve. I think that it definitely needs some fix, but what you suggest wouldn't honestly help it much...it would still be pretty useless. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill is really hard to balance because of the powerful snare. Compared to Icy Shackles, this skill is still conditional and costs 3x as much energy.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 17:15, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * But it's not a powerful snare, is my point. Even in PvP, having a 90% snare isn't a whole lot better than a standard 66% snare. That is why Mind Freeze is broken. Bad effect. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * So...do you have any suggestions?--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 15:40, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Uh...maybe just remove the Exhaustion. Compared to Icy Shackles (which is good because it's hard not to meet condition and is cheap), this deals damage and lasts a little longer. But, it is only to be used by Elementalists, whereas Shackles can technically be used by anyone. Mind Freeze also casts faster than the other Water snares. Hmm. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Weaken Knees
I think the following improvements should be made to this skill: -- <font color="#900020">Lann 06:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Increase recharge to 10 seconds.
 * Change effect to: Next time target foe is struck, that foe is knocked down and takes 15...51...60 damage.


 * That sounds good. Maybe it should have some +damage instead of Weakness, though. (for falling down) [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I really did not know how to improve this skill. Even with the change, I still think it is relativly weak. Any suggestions on damage scale?--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 17:15, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Compare to Defile Defenses and adjust accordingly. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Changed.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 15:40, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Echo wanding, anyone? [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 19:24, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think this is overpowered now >.>--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 22:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, maybe reduce the recharge to 5 and halve the damage...this would be wonderful spike setup material as is. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Stone Sheath
I think the following improvements should be made to this skill: -- <font color="#900020">Lann 07:02, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Increase energy cost to 10.
 * Change effect to: For 8...18...20 seconds, target foe and all adjacent foes move 50% slower, deal earth damage, and cannot score a critical hit.
 * Fix bug that gives assassins energy back if they would of scored a critical hit.


 * ...Sooo basically you want to change this into the long-awaited "Conjure Earth"? Meh, keep the naming system consistent. I think that Stone Sheath has an okay effect as of now, but it is underpowered. It would be great if it was like..."In the area" range, and foes move and/or attack 10% slower also. No criticals is a decent damper to the damage of any weapon-using profession, and annoying to Assassins and GftE Paras especially. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmm. How about it now?--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 17:15, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that seems better, although part of the beauty of Stone Sheath was the AoE effect. Was useful on gangs of sins or wars. Single-target effect probably merits more like a 10 second recharge, 1...7...8 duration. Don't want to make it permanent upkeep with that many effects. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * It is not useful on sins. They don't achieve their critical damage, but they still get their energy back. Sins rely on bonus damage most of the time.
 * Increased range to adjacent.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 15:40, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * That is because of the bug, which needs to be fixed regardless. Bonus damage can't be helped unless this was also given a flat damage reduction (like Stoneflesh Aura). But that seems pretty powerful. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Reaper's Sweep
I think the following improvements should be made to this skill: -- <font color="#900020">Lann 07:23, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Increase energy cost to 10.
 * Increase rechage to 10.
 * Change effect to: If this attack hits, you deal +4...17...20 damage. Whenever it hits a foe who has less Health than you, this damage is doubled and that foe suffers from Deep Wound for 2...12...15 seconds.


 * Reaper's Sweep only seems underpowered because Wounding Strike is so good. I would change the DW threshold to 33...66...75% to bring it up to par. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * What do you mean by that? I was comparing this skill to Eviscerate. This has more damage, and on demand DW. Thus I increased energy cost and recharge a bit. Wounding Strike is good for spreading bleeding/deepwound, and currently reaper's sweep pales in comparison. This makes it more oriented to spike builds.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 17:15, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * ...Uh? Why would you compare those two? Evis is more like Cruel Spear (or Wearying); Reaper's is more like Decapitate with less penalty. Anyway, I think bringing it up to 75% at 15 (not at all unreasonable for PvP) would be fine. Or maybe even 90%, like LoD. 8 Derv Reaper Spike would be...bad. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * How about that?--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 15:40, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * More like..."If this attack hits, you deal +4...17...20 damage. Whenever it hits a foe who has less Health than you, this damage is doubled, and that foe suffers from Deep Wound for 2...12...15 seconds." Remember that (barring buffs, runes, or Fort mods) Dervs always have higher intrinsic Health anyways. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * How about that?--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:05, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * There's nothing wrong with this skill. Wounding strike is nice but if you're PvPing with a dervish and you want to kill stuff then you use Melandru. Anyway this isn't terrible, Wounding gives unconditional deep wound but remember you can't kill something by wounding them deeply all the time (generally speaking of course) Blue.rellik 10:25, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Keystone Signet
I think the following improvements should be made to this skill. -- <font color="#900020">Lann 18:03, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Reduce recharge to 15 seconds.


 * Keystone was briefly buffed some time ago, but quickly reverted because it led to haxxor Signet builds which were actually quite deadly. It needs the disable effect to keep it narrowly focused, but the duration/recharge could be tweaked a bit more. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Changed back to recharge being reduced.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 15:40, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah. Looks fine. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Yay!--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Incoming
I think the following improvements should be made to this skill. -- <font color="#900020">Lann 18:10, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Change effect to: For 0...6...8seconds, all party members within earshot take 0...20...25% less damage.
 * Increase recharge time to 30 seconds.


 * This would = it to "Watch Yourself!", except it reduces armor ignoring damage and is readily deployable. --[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 18:10, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Incoming was absolutely killed with the nerfstick because of 8-Para team abuse. You can still pull that off, but it is very iffy...It was broken from Day 1. I think your suggestion would help, but what about armor-ignoring damage like Obsidian Flame? WY has nothing on those.
 * Tbh they should switch Incoming and TNtF! [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, only thing this has over WY is that it reduces armor ignoring damage and is readily deployable, but cannot be kept up all the time. As someone said, "But that would make it worthy of elite status! " --Marcros.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 15:40, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah...sigh. Maybe it could last a bit longer, reduce damage to 20% at 15, and give some minor chance to block also. I dunno honestly. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I really liked this skill :(. And stand your ground. Now defensive para skills are not worth crap.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Defensive Anthem is one of the best elites in the game. If this is buffed to any type of decent duration then it would be insanely overpowered since a few paragons could chain this and laff at being killed Blue.rellik 10:27, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Defensive Anthem is used right now because it is the best atm. Its basically a shorter lasting Aegis that cannot be removed but ends if you attack. So that leaves out paragons, dervishes, warriors, assassins, and rangers who are not affected by it. And check the whole skill description from the current skill. Idk if you even took the time, but they are not the same. This has the dmg reduction of Watch Yourself, which paragons chain already. This just reduces armor ignoring dmg too.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 15:09, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know what game you have been playing but the duration between DA and Aegis is roughly the same, DA also has a shorter recharge and so what about the ending on a attack skill? The characters that don't worry about being spiked are the ones that don't really get affected, even then they can still auto-attack. Also being un-removable is a incredibly big benefit, shatter enchantment is often used before a spike (aka Aegis) and if it goes off then the target is typically dead, with this skill, not so much. Also 25% damage reduction is INSANE as is the duration. This was abused before with Vocal was Sogolon so a few paragons could maintain it and make the team nigh-unspikable. Blue.rellik 03:10, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Fyi, watch yourself gives roughly 25% dmg reduction (a little more). And Mirror of Disenchantment is more often used than Shatter for Aegis. I must admit, most melee classes don't have to worry about being hit, but that is still another advantage Aegis has over Defensive Anthem. I don't know if you have noticed atm, but no one uses this skill. That is why this page exists, to brainstorm improvements, which I have of yet to hear from anyone. Besides Entropy, who has so kindly cared as to post suggestions on all the skills. Entropy's idea was to make this cost adrenaline (8 or so) as so to be harder to chain. --[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 21:26, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Where did I say that? o_O 25% raw reduction is >>>>> +24AL due to the armor stacking nerf and because of "armor ignoring" damage. Call of Protection, TNtF!, Lightbringer title track, Rebel Yell effect... all super powerful stuff because they are raw reduction and not just +block / +armor. (That would be Shield of Deflection) This is why Incoming and TNtF! were both nerfed so heavily. Too strong effect when chained permanently. Btw I still think DA is crap but I understand why people say it's awesome too. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 10:02, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The reason no-one uses this skill Lann, is because it would be completely broken if it was any longer. It's just like Keystone Signet, broken with short recharge, useless with long recharge. Blue.rellik 10:05, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that DA is complete crap, except in GvG. And that is not necessarily true Blue.Rellik. Incoming just needs a longer duration at the cost of a weaker effect and a longer recharge. The problem with keystone signet is that it has an effect that is not dependent on attribute. To improve it all you can do is reduce recharge or change the effect all together. Incoming's effect, however, is dependent on attribute. --[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 22:17, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Keystone has a secondary effect based off Inspiration but honestly speaking at 15 seconds, it could be abusable with Mantra of inscriptions. The problem with Incoming is that it's 'DAMAGE REDUCTION', everything is reduced by it except life stealing. The current meta in high-end PvP is already saturated with enough anti-melee, even reducing the % while increasing the duration would make warriors even more frustrated, if they're lucky enough to hit a target through all the wards, DAs and Aegis' then their attack will then be nullified by a large amount. And DA is not crap, your opinion maybe is that it's crap but it isn't crap. Only the un-educated say that Blue.rellik 03:13, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
 * To bad that is not an arguable statement, for that is an opinion in itself. DA essentially reduces all dmg from melee by 50% for X amount of seconds. Reducing Incoming's effect to 25% would cause it to reduce less dmg than DA, but it would reduce all types of damage. Not to mention it would have a shorter duration. Incoming would just have an instant cast time. And from what you have said, it seems that you think incoming would be used to stop melee, but DA already does that. --[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 20:51, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? I'm not comparing DA to Incoming, DA is a passive defense that protects the party, Incoming's purpose is to stop spikes (which at any decent duration at 50% is overpowered), my point about DA is that it is good and you're wrong if you say it sucks Blue.rellik 03:09, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * "Good" and "bad" are matters of opinion, not definite facts --Gimmethegepgun 03:30, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Firestorm is good, Eviscerate is bad Blue.rellik 04:00, 17 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I'd use Mending over Infuse in every situation, cause it heals so much more !!!!one1oneeleven11! --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]]-- (s)talkpage 16:59, 17 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes we all love mending. But to the point. A. Bluerellik your wrong. Idk if you are even looking at the suggested change, because no where did I say to change it to 50% reduction for a longer duration. Incoming does not stop spikes, because no one uses it. This skill is broken due to its overpowered effect relative to its incrediably short duration. B. They take things such as DA instead, which does not protect the party as you said, it protects caster classes. The point of all this, is to brainstorm revisions for inferior skills/previously nerfed skills, by changing their potency/duration/recharge or their overall effect. --[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 22:11, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Wait what? The entire purpose of Incoming is to stopping spikes (havling a spike's power with a unremovable buff is damn good), and originally it could have been maintained continously with a few paragons and one with a rit. I saw the changes and it would still be crap, no-one wants to spec 12 into command and it does a crappy job at being spike/DPS defense. DA would still be better in the current environment because it slows adrenaline gain for warriors and paragons. In the end, a scale that adjusts both the % reduction and time won't really work because most paragon's don't spec really high command anyway so it would be weak and and decent duration at 50% is broken Blue.rellik 03:12, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * And yet even though you admit it is crap, you argue that it does not need to be changed. Kinda polemical. --[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 03:17, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * My statement on Incoming not stopping spikes was sarcasim. It's effect was meant to prevent spikes, but do to nerf, no one uses it. Thus, essentially, it does not prevent spikes because no one uses. Even as you said, "no-one wants to spec 12 into command". Your statements are not very helpful, and they seem bias towards current meta. No suggestions to improve this skill are coming from you. So what is your purpose on this page? --[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 03:22, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * My entire purpose here is to state that some elites just can't be balanced because of how the game is (that and DA does not suck fullstop anywhere) Blue.rellik 03:27, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * If you're in a place with 0 Enchant stripping (read:nowhere) then Aegis is better, of course. DA is good for PvP, but there are a few places in PvE where its unstribbable nature and noneffect for melee are not so good to justify using it. Not that that's a good argument, because of PvP and PvE using same skill balances...and you could always use both. Imo Incoming will never be fixed. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 16:40, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * DA is only used in HA and GvG. You obviously keep comparing DA to Incoming, as you keep bringing it up. They are 2 totally unrelated skills with different purposes.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 20:46, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Everyone keep saying Incoming is broken, but all you are doing is comparing changes to it to its effect right now. And as of right now, it won't be used. The point is to brainstorm changes to this skill to make it usable to be implemented ig. For example,

Like this it would be an elite version of "Watch Yourself!" Or you can also make it cost 4-6 adrenaline, have a recharge of 4, allowing paragons to use this as energy management and go defense or GftE! for offense (or both). -- <font color="#900020">Lann 20:59, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Change effect to: For 0...6...8seconds, all party members within earshot gain 10...34...40 armor.
 * I never compared Incoming to DA, I was addressing the point that people were saying DA 'sucks', the fact it was in this part of the page is just a coincidence. The reason why DA is awesome is because it's on the Paragon, the character that never has energy problems, the one who can spam skills left, right and centre, Aegis is on the monk, a character that doesn't have a innate e-management attribute and thus 10 energy skills aren't so easily used. Even in high-end PvP monks will run out of energy which is why Aegis isn't something that's spammed willy nilly (unless they bring gole). Also paragons are like rits, their normal skills are so bloody amazing that they can easily run a powerful skill-bar without a elite and skill kick hiney well. Blue.rellik 01:52, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Please refer to me above where anyone said that DA sucks. It is not even on the PoS list.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 02:15, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
 * You said right above my first post here 'defensive para skills are not worth crap' Blue.rellik 02:24, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
 * That is a general statement. Most defensive para skills are not worth crap. No one pointed specifically to one skill. DA has it's ups and downs, but Aegis is essentially better because it is a non-elite, and protects the whole party, lasts longer, while DA is an elite that cannot be stripped at the cost of a shorter duration, and a less powerful effect. They both have their ups and downs, DA is not a terribly horrible skill, but it is only used in a small portion of GW. --[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 16:05, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Did you even consider what I said? Monks don't have the energy in a realistic environment to go spell spamming even with gole, Paragons do. Also paragons don't really have many other game-blowing elites to take so a quasi-aegis is good enough, their spear mastery, leadership and leadership skills are already very strong. Yes in typical PvE it doesn't matter but a lot of things doesn't matter in PvE. The downside to DA is to make up for the fact for the benefits it has, shorter recharge time, un-removable, not raping the caster's energy if interrupted. Also one last thing, 'small portion'? That's complete and utter ignorance right there. Are you saying the PvP is only a 'small portion' of GW? Anyway I'll stop posting here, I've derailed this an incredible amount and made my point, DA =/= crap and Incoming = cannot be balanced and serve it's purpose at the same time Blue.rellik 04:48, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * You mean DA != crap. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 04:58, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I would say you're right but I'm not the type of person to say someone else is right so I'm going to say me > you Blue.rellik 05:01, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * See blue.rellik does not like to read. He believes HA and GvG are the only existing forms of pvp. I never pointed to DA and said "Your Crap!". I just stated a general assumption that Paragons now suck at defense. Blue.rellik then had to start comparing DA (I'm guessing his favorite paragon elite because he keeps bringing it up?!) to incoming when they have 2 totally different purposes. It is ok to have your own opinion, but denouncing others is not.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 05:10, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh please, HA and GvG are really the only PvP that matter, you seriously CANNOT be saying AB or RA are serious are you? TA is another one but the 4v4 style is hardly high-ranking PvP player style for the long term, You stated a 'general' assumption, I stated a 'general' comment. DA is not my favorite gon elite, Cruel Spear (eviscerate is win). I NEVER compared Incoming to DA, they serve different purposes, where did I even compare them? I also like how you ignore my points on why DA is not inferior to Aegis Blue.rellik 05:15, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * "Wait what? The entire purpose of Incoming is to stopping spikes (havling a spike's power with a unremovable buff is damn good), and originally it could have been maintained continously with a few paragons and one with a rit. I saw the changes and it would still be crap, no-one wants to spec 12 into command and it does a crappy job at being spike/DPS defense. DA would still be better in the current environment because it slows adrenaline gain for warriors and paragons."

rofls-- <font color="#900020">Lann 05:20, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * And also, I never said DA was inferior to Aegis. I said Aegis is essentially better :P --[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 05:20, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Your forgetting HB.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 05:20, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I forgot an lol. lol.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 05:20, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * rofls indeed, did you even see me say in the current environment'? I was talking about how the PvP world is played now, blockway Blue.rellik 05:33, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm laughing Blue.rellik 05:33, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Which is still isn't anything to go by, from what I've read of it, sins win there which is just silly for a single profession to completely own. Blue.rellik 05:33, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * You really do not know how to indent. The point is, you were comparing, though you said you were not. "DA is still better" has an indirect object :P --[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 18:52, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, thank you for that insightful observation. What is the purpose of saying I don't know how to indent? You're taking everything I say to literal, I was talking about your revisions and how DA is now because if you're talking about skills you need to see how they would be used in the world.
 * "I was talking about how the PvP world is played now". And yet you say Incoming does not need to be changed. Your right, incoming won't be used over DA, because incoming sux. GJ, we all figured that one out already.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 18:56, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * My point is that Incoming 'cannot be balanced' because (as I said before), if you want it to stop spikes then it can't have a good duration but if you want it to have a good duration then it would be overpowered if it stop spikes Blue.rellik 03:29, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Quick Shot
I think the following improvements should be made to this skill. -- <font color="#900020">Lann 15:53, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Change skill from Unlinked to Marksmanship.
 * Change effect to: Quick Shot strikes for only 10...26...30 damage and moves twice as fast.


 * Elite unconditional Needling Shot, but can't be permanently spammed? Uh... [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * How about making it unblockable and have a 1⁄2 activation (without the extra aftercast that other range 1⁄2 activation skills have). Just imagine: Sloth Hunter's -> Quick Shot -> Savage Shot :P --Gimmethegepgun 03:37, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * So should recharge be removed?--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:05, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Not if you're using my other suggestions as well :/ Just imagine what would happen with a Zealous bow, 13+ Expertise, Kindle Arrows, and Conjure Flame. VERY bad idea --Gimmethegepgun 06:57, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Quick shot is good. Do you even know the difference between activation time and recharge time? Blue.rellik 10:21, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Do I know the difference? The fact that that makes needling shot better? yes. --[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 22:21, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Scavenger's Focus
I think the following improvements should be made to this skill. -- <font color="#900020">Lann 15:55, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Change effect to: For 24 seconds, your attacks steal 5...13...15 health against foes suffering from a Condition.


 * Should use my suggested improvement (for Scavenger Strike), make it deal +damage for each condition. Would actually make it powerful enough to consider using. But lifesteal is nice too. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, you are scavenging, after all --Gimmethegepgun 03:38, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * You could always sacrifice it to destroy target Artifact. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 03:46, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Ride the Lightning
I think the following improvements should be made to this skill. -- <font color="#900020">Lann 16:02, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Increase energy cost to 15.
 * Increase recharge to 10 seconds.
 * Remove exhaustion.
 * Change effect to: "You ride the lightning to target foe. That foe is struck for 10...82...100 lightning damage. If this hits a moving foe, that foe is knocked down. This spell has 25% armor penetration."


 * Now, I'd actually use that, because it sounds fun. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Woo!--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Unyielding Aura
I think the following improvements should be made to this skill. -- <font color="#900020">Lann 16:11, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Change effect to: Bring target dead party member back to life at full Health and full Energy. If you stop maintaining this enchantment or if this enchantment is removed within 120...60...45 seconds, that party member dies and leaves an exploited corpse. Deaths while enchanted with Unyielding Aura do not incur a death penalty. After 120...60...45 seconds, this enchantment ends. (50% failure chance with Divine Favor 4 or less).


 * Thus, after the time given, that ally stays alive after the time period ends.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 16:11, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Since no one uses UA anywhere, I can't see the harm. This may let it be usable for tough HM PvE, where DP is a factor, and you are too poor to get Powerstone of Courage. Obviously in PvP this would never be used, 45 sec is too long a wait. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah : /. Mabye some hybrid res bonder build idk. Better than what it was before.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Signet of Spirits
I think the following improvements should be made to this skill. -- <font color="#900020">Lann 16:14, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Reduce recharge to 15 seconds.
 * Increase energy gain by 8...15...17.


 * Sure, why not. Always been a bit underpowered. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:32, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Gives more energy than OoS, but conditional.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Clamor of Souls
I think the following improvements should be made to this skill. -- <font color="#900020">Lann 16:20, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Reduce energy cost to 5.
 * Reduce cast time to 1/4.
 * Change effect to: For each nearby ally, one foe near target ally is struck for 10...94...108 lightning damage. (The same foe cannot be struck more than once.)


 * I still don't see why you wouldn't use Ancestor's Rage over this. The range is bigger by one tier, but that does not really make it Elite-worthy in my opinion. If it had AP or KD or something that might be a different issue. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, the reason that it has the part about each target only being hit once is to avoid the insane uber-spiking everyone imagines when they first see this skill. Maybe put a cap on the number of hits each enemy can have (higher than 1) --Gimmethegepgun 03:41, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It is like elite ancestors, but a req of nearby allies.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I thought the description was the same, just no max number of hits, but now I see "target ally" --Gimmethegepgun 06:58, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Shadow Shroud
I think the following improvements should be made to this skill. -- <font color="#900020">Lann 16:23, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Reduce cast time to 3/4.
 * Change effect to: Target foe loses all enchantments. For 3...8...9 seconds, target foe cannot be the target of further Enchantments.


 * Combination of Lingering Curse and Well of the Profane? Sounds like a nice tool for spiking. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I always thought that Shroud of Silence put this skill out of much use.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Locust's Fury
I think the following improvements should be made to this skill. -- <font color="#900020">Lann 16:29, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Change effect to. For 10...30...35 seconds, you attack 25% faster while using daggers.


 * Disagree. Leave Locust's Fury as is, it is ungodly powerful when you run this + Critical Agility + Conjures. In PvP you can use Flail or Flurry. The only pro I see to this is that it gives the Assassin an IAS for PvP, but is that really worthy of Elite status? Many Sins already use one of the Warrior IAS. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * How about: You have an additional 50% chance to double strike and activate attack skills 25% faster? Then autoattack is the same, though without the imba overpowered IAS with it, but if you're actually using a chain it still helps --Gimmethegepgun 03:43, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Meh. Idk what to do with this skill.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Don't change it. It is a PoS, but it has it's uses how it is now. And I don't want that ruined, tbh... My 0.02cents --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]]-- (s)talkpage 13:55, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, isn't 33% faster 50% more hits?--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 17:59, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Hundred Blades
I think the following improvements should be made to this skill. -- <font color="#900020">Lann 16:36, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Change effect to: Perform a spinning sword attack striking twice for +4...10...12 damage to all adjacent opponents.


 * HB always was outclassed by Cyclone Axe, Triple Chop, and Whirlwind Attack. This would be a welcome change. Fun stuff for Conjures too. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Ghostly hero already uses this lol.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Decapitate
I think the following improvements should be made to this skill. -- <font color="#900020">Lann 22:19, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Remove "lose all adrenaline and energy" effect.
 * Add effect: "all your skills are disabled for 5 seconds".
 * Christ that would be powerful. Use it and follow up with 1/2 sec attack stuff (crit chop->prot strike maybe). Though it needs improving, that might go too far. Lord of all tyria 22:22, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Lose half your maximum? --<font face="vivaldi" size="3">Shadowcrest 22:23, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Make it so you lose 10 energy?--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 22:26, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Lose all energy instead of all adrenaline?--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 22:27, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Half energy isn't always equal to ten. I think this skill should keep the "lose all adren" clause, keeps it from being too good. --<font face="vivaldi" size="3">Shadowcrest 22:29, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Keeping adren means you can cancel stance out of frenzy via rush, and still follow up with executioner's strike. Losing 10 energy still leaves the comobo I said above. The change needs to make it have no powerful follow-ups on a spike but not keep the character out the game too long, or to tone down the damage dealt and allow a follow-up skill. Lord of all tyria 22:30, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not too experienced with warriors, but it seems to me that if you can't follow this up with anything it will be inferior to Eviscerate. --<font face="vivaldi" size="3">Shadowcrest 22:35, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, thats the problem with the first option. For the 2nd, it needs to be more powerful than eviscerate, but stop you following up with really good stuff, or just take longer to build up. Lord of all tyria 22:38, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Idk. Only thing I can think of is keep the losing all adren/energy, and add "after 3 [or some number] seconds, your next 1...3 attacks gain double adrenaline." or something like that. you can still follow it up with something, but not immediately. --<font face="vivaldi" size="3">Shadowcrest 22:41, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I did not think critical chop was a good follow up. I thought it was nerfed terribly.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 22:46, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * What if it costs 10 adrenaline, like Final Thrust?--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 22:47, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I love shadow's idea, if it was double adren for 5 secs straight after the loss of adren+energy. @ lann, I was thinking crit chop+prot strike, since under frenzy it'd come off very quickly and make up for not having huge +dmg. Lord of all tyria 22:50, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I am trying to think of how ANet would update this.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 22:57, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * yey, my idea iz loved --<font face="vivaldi" size="3">Shadowcrest  22:58, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * But what would your effect be? An enchantment? Just a skill effect?--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 22:59, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Just an effect. So it's unremovable (unless you die) --<font face="vivaldi" size="3">Shadowcrest  23:02, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Read up GWW on izzy's page, cool suggestion was to disable all skills for a short period, which removes all adren, stops you following up with skills, but you keep energy and can build up again soon after. Lord of all tyria 23:03, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Wow. THAT IS PERFECT. So GWish...ness! How about it now?--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 23:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Suggestion's been there since September though, so its obviously not coming :( Lord of all tyria 23:06, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Should it disable all skills or just attack? Still, its the best suggestion so far. And its viable. --[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 23:07, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Mine was so much more creative :P. This reminds me of a Ray of Judgement.. except this wouldn't suck. And I'm not expecting any of these to be changed, Izzy never reads his talk :P --<font face="vivaldi" size="3">Shadowcrest 23:07, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * If I was izzy I wouldn't, its full of QQing. Better to just chat with ensign ^^ Lord of all tyria 23:09, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Izzy never reads anyone elses either >.>. I am a lost cause everyone Q.Q.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 23:16, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I like this change, although this makes it an awesome PvE skill for boss-killing (instant recharge-all). Derv could use Eternal Aura for some weird combos as well. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Peace and Harmony
Generally outclassed by other Energy management, even non-elite stuff, when you're talking about a single Monk. PnH only becomes viable when it is cast on many people, but even then it always has to compete with Succor.

To fix PnH, I believe that the following improvements should be made:
 * Change functionality to "Whenever that ally causes damage to a foe, they lose 3...2...1 Energy", instead of just ending.

...This would make it so that PnH could be used on everyone, but it would be counterproductive to cast it on, say, a Warrior. On the other hand, this would make it easier to use, because there is no threat of accidentally ending it by wanding once or something. Still lacking, but it's a start. (T/C) 07:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Sounds better than it used to be. Energy gain is still pitiful, however. And what if you cast this on an ele? And he uses Searing Heat and it hits 4 targets 5 times? Does he lose 1 energy each time?--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 19:00, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I dunno, how does SV and Sun and Moon Slash work out? While the energy gain is still pitiful, this would definitely make the skill more usable. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Unless your in a PUG and a noob monk or an ass of a monk uses it on you (you being ele), so for each AoE damage you do, you lose that much energy (and if he was an ass, you would know he would have 0 Divine favor).--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 16:46, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Here's my idea. Change the effect to "Every 2 seconds, if target ally did not deal damage in that time, he gains 1 energy." [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 19:31, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * That makes it basically unlinked besides the duration, which is already long even at 0. But that sounds like a good idea also. Energy regains 1 per 3 seconds per pip, though, so perhaps make that 3 seconds. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I purposely made it worth 2 pips. If it was every 3 seconds, it wouldn't be at all different for a monk than it is now. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 03:23, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Check your math...Your change would give an effective +0.5 energy per second. Over 6 seconds, it would return 3 energy. Conversely, one additional pip means an effective +1/3 energy per second. Over 6 seconds, it would return 2 energy. Two pips would return 4 energy over 6 seconds. So, you need to make the change to "Every 3 seconds, if target ally did not deal damage in that time, he gains 2 energy." [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:32, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * You're right, of course. I think I had that in mind originally but then decided it was a tad too much and scaled it back a smidge. I dunno. Long day. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 03:34, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * This skill gives me a headache.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 06:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Ride the Lightning
This skill is failsauce. It is only useful for PBAoE Eles and Azacasters, but even then it is simply not good enough. While it does moderate damage, like Lightning Surge it is simply outclassed by other Elites, or even by non-Elite Shadow Steps. The Exhaustion isn't a huge factor because no other PBAoE has Exhaution, however, it hurts the usefulness of RtL for non-Elementalist classes. RtL can be powerful on an Assassin, but it is too limiting as is to see any serious use in PvP, let alone PvE.

To fix RtL, I believe that the following improvements should be made:
 * Change Exhaustion to be conditional: "If target foe did not receive damage or was not knocked down, you do not suffer Exhaustion."
 * Give it 25% Armor penetration.
 * Increase recharge to 20 or 25, OR decrease recharge to 5 and make it Disabled for 15-20 seconds after successful use.

...This would make it powerful enough to actually see some use in PvP spike builds, and make it a bit easier for other classes to use. The recharge goes up to keep it balanced. (T/C) 07:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Eh, it already has 25% AP vipermagi. lol.[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 17:18, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I am honored to be confused with Entropy. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]]-- (s)talkpage 17:35, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I got the honor before you. So ha :P --<font face="vivaldi" size="3"> Shadow  crest   17:56, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Oops :P. Sorry lol, I was looking at the history. Entropy is not up there : /--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 18:11, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think the main reason this skill has exhaustion is because of spike capability with assassins. (Ride the Lightning Conjure Death Blossomers!?). Mabye we should just add damage.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 18:17, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Oops, I forget they (slightly) buffed this a long time ago. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Wounding Strike
This skill is powerful. It causes nearly unconditional Deep Wound, and can easily cover it with Bleeding on the next strike (with the right combo). However, most people seem to dislike it because "Reaper's Sweep deals more damage" and "Without an Enchantment it is worthless". I think only the first argument is valid, since a Dervish without Enchantments is basically failure.

In my honest opinion, Wounding Strike is good enough as is. It doesn't deal any +damage, but honestly, who cares? Most Hammer attacks don't, for a good reason. Scythes have the highest damage max in the game for any weapon. Do they really need +damage on everything? Nah...

If they really, really wanted to make Wounding Strike appeal to everyone, then I suggest they increase the recharge (not sure how much) and have it cause +1...10...13 damage - but only while not Enchanted. This would prevent it from absolutely overpowering Reaper's Sweep. (T/C) 07:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * In most pvp builds, Wounding Strike is used much more often than Reaper's Sweep because of the on demand/reappliable dw.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 17:20, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Quick Shot? Lame?
Well, I guess you think that because you refuse to see the possible combinations with this skill. Combinate with:
 * Mark of Pain for: MASSIVE AoE DAMAGE
 * Apply Poison for: MASSIVE POISON
 * Kindle Arrows for: MASSIVE EXPLOSIVE DAMAGE
 * Mending for: MASSIVE WAMMO DAMAGE

Sincerely, ~ Yikey 13:47, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, exempt the fact you soud MASSIVELY sarcastic, none of those really benefit from Quick Shot. Quich Shot = spike. But there are better skills for it, so meh. You could say Massive AoE dmg about Hundred Baldes+MoP too, but the fact is, MoP is only adjacent, after one pulse, no more AoE dmg... Kindle Arrows != explosion stuff. Ignote Arrows sucks, too little dmg... --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]]-- (s)talkpage 13:56, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yikey, after spending hundreds of hours using skills everyone else even refuses to look at, I here by award thee the title of Legendary Defender of L.A.M.E. Skills!--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 17:23, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Mark of Pain is an idea, but it is not the greatest combo. Dual Shot, Forked Arrow, Triple Shot do that job well also, and don't forget Needling Shot. Meh.
 * QS + Apply is a bad combo. You get minimally more degen spread and waste your elite. That also runs low on Energy fast.
 * I think you mean Ignite Arrows? And that is a horrible combo. The Charr abuse it, but as any serious PvE or PvP player can tell you - that is a worthless prep. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Quick Shot on a crit bow sin with Disrupting Accuracy is kind of fun. Not really effective, but fun. 19:34, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * ANet does not care about fun.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 21:01, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * You're right. D: [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 21:03, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Air of Enchantment

 * Only 1 ally
 * Short time
 * Pwned by: Divine Spirit <B><font color="Blue">RT </B>| <font color="Black"><B>Talk</B>  23:27, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * This skill could be good if it had no aftercast; that would make it useful for stopping a spike when you're low on energy. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 23:30, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * But divine sprit is non eleet works on more than one target and can have more time in effect <B><font color="Blue">RT </B>| <font color="Black"><B>Talk</B>  23:47, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Felix is trolling. It is inferior to other monk elites. Go ahead and add it to the page. You don't need my permission.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 23:48, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm trolling by suggesting an improvement? My bad. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 23:50, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Your trolling by using is and suggesting improvements matter of factly. Did you not see "I think the following improvements should be made to this skill." On the top of each of the skills?--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 23:56, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't even know what you're talking about now. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 23:58, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
 * "Now it's garbage"-Felix "It's a _GOOD_ skill"-Felix. Your stating it as a fact. But it is an opinion. No one uses this over Vicious+GftE in meta. And atm, no one will. --[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 00:02, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Anyway, this does not need to be discussed here.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 00:03, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to put "It is my opinion that" before all of my statements. And frankly, I don't appreciate being called a troll. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 00:05, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I never called you a troll. I said you were trolling. That is a verb. "Acting like a troll". You could of said I think this is a good skill. And This is arguing. All we are doing is going back and forth, for we have opposing views. There is nothing wrong with that. It just does not NEED to be discussed here.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 00:09, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * RT, how do you think this skill should be improved?--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 00:09, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Increced enchant time, aditional extra healing buff. <B><font color="Blue">RT </B>| <font color="Black"><B>Talk</B>  00:11, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * What if it did, "enchantments you cast on other allies" effect?--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 00:12, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * So it would be like selfless spirit, but only other allies and only with enchantments. The enchantment would go on yourself. And you would have to recast it quite frequently.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 00:13, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Mabye make it "enchantments that target an ally", so aegis would not return energy.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 00:14, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I think it's fair to say that Aegis is cast on yourself, anyway, seeing as it gives only you the Divine Favor heal. [[Image:Ruricu-sig.png]] ( Talk • Contribs) 02:23, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * RT, the problem with Divine Spirit is the killer recharge and the fact that you really need to spam to make the most of it. AoE used to be popular but not anymore. I believe that AoE would be best improved if it was change to a self-enchant with the same effect. This would mean you still have to recast it often, but you can now target different allies. Maybe that is a bit strong and needs a recharge lenthen, though. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Nerfed previuosly
I think that all the skills that used to be overpowered and now are underpowered should be stripped from the list. I played against "Incoming!" in it's original state, I have fought against an AoG derv with the original Avatar. Many of these skills where gamebreaking before the Nerf. I would hate to see them returned to their original glory.--<font color="Black">ìğá†ħŕášħ Talk^Cont 02:34, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * That's why we are trying to make them at least usable, but not to the former overpowered state. We all know which skills were gamebreaking before. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Like AoG. The suggested change is nothing like its old effect. It actually goes off of the AoG skill in the snowball fights.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] <font color="#900020">Lann 18:19, 2 January 2008 (UTC)