Talk:Vizunah Square (mission)

H/H failure
So I've gone through this mission roughly ten times in as many days, probably more. I hardly ever PUG, but I can frankly say that I am now very appreciative to get some humans in the other party for this mission. Even if they are like level 15 or something... It's not because they will necessarily have better builds than the hench party (though that is usually the case). The main thing that I love is how they don't follow me around and thus abandon Togo/Mhenlo to die.

Normally I'm just fine with H/H parties, no matter what mission it is. But this one in particular, it's more often suicidal than not when I pull a hench party... unless I am taking overwhelmingly strong stuff myself (imbagon, SH nukers, MMs...), there is a very good chance that fights end up into longer-than-necessary stalemates, and then Mhenlo/Togo start getting zapped with Jesus Beam etc. While I have yet to actually fail the mission or miss Master's, I've just had way too many close calls lately. The fact that the hench party won't move apart from mine causes so many problems in this mission, because it is designed to have people defending on two fronts, and only staying in one group during the last parts of fights/the very last fight...

I guess a large part of the problem is that none of the H/H, let alone Mhenlo/Togo, will bother to kite out of RoJ, and so turtling doesn't work that well. From now on I'm not taking overly defensive builds into this mission. :\ I know another part of the problem is that the hench selection is atrocious - they are bound to die a lot almost regardless of what you do, because they are just a weak party. Talon Silverwing's suicidal Healing Signet at 4 tactics gets him killed even while fighting the low-level Afflicted; Panaku is pretty fragile. In this mission, Kai Ying runs ~the same Fire Magic build as Cynn, which only aids in damage, and he's fragile. Lo Sha is suicidal in his usage of interrupts and Hex Eater Signet, often going up to the melee to use it. Su can heal herself with Soul Feast, but if you brought an MM this interferes. Sister Tai and Professor Gai are bad healers because they use highly inefficient skills and lack any real energy management (I don't know if Eve/hench cast Blood Ritual on them; that would make them a bit more effective); there is also a lack of prot monk which is really bad. Zho is the only one who can kinda take care of herself, and she is still bad. :\

Lastly, to add insult to injury, the H/H team often has multiple deaths before I can even reach them at the start of the mission (when playing from Foreign quarter). They will all stand in roughly the same spot, not moving to defend Togo or engaging the enemies before they come to them. This often results in Togo nearly dying, one of the hench running off to fight Afflicted and dying, etc etc. And these are mostly the low-level afflicted too. >.< So before the mission has even started in earnest, they have already used up valuable Resurrection Signets that won't get recharged. Blah.

Unwaking Waters doesn't have this problem at all because it is designed to have both parties bunched up and mostly attacking the same things... even though they often wipe a lot, I've never had to use the resurrection relics there. And once you get to Kuunavang, as long as your party came prepared, you'll be alright. Sigh. (T/C) 09:32, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * There are some bosses in this mission, so res sig should recharge.... Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 10:55, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Only the party who kills the boss gets the morale boost and the skill recharge. Since that is almost always your party, the hench may as well never have them recharge. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 10:58, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Didn't know that. Did you like my other answer? Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 12:03, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * In easy mode, I generally had better luck with henchmen from the other side. Henchmen may be mediocre, but that's good enough, and they're reliably mediocre--as opposed to completely awful.  They don't go AFK, run the wrong way, wipe before you can get there, etc.  If you have only henchmen yourself, then henchmen from the other side may be a little rough, but if you have heroes yourself, getting henchmen from the other side should make the mission pretty easy.  Getting a good player from the other side was better than just henchmen, but if I got a player, it probably wasn't a good one.
 * In hard mode, it's a very different story. The henchmen party from the other side would be a lot stronger, but it's not necessarily good enough.  With players, on the other hand, the people who just want you to powerlevel their heroes don't do hard mode.  With just henchmen and heroes, hard mode is doable but rough.  With players and heroes on both sides, it's not that hard.  Quizzical 17:33, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Perhaps it's due to AI tweaks they have made since then, since I can assure you that there's a pretty decent chance at least some of the hench will have died before you even reach them, and some will also die during every major fight, even the first one which is trivial (which you can tell from "death cries"). I can see their health bars somewhat, in the same way you could see any NPC's, and after an Afflicted Soul Explosion they take a massive hit (the melee ones especially, they die a lot).
 * While the mission is never really "difficult" (exception: Mhenlo/Togo getting left to fend for themselves, because I can't be in two places at once) and I've yet to lose Master's even when I take way longer to kill a wave than I should... it just makes it unnecessarily difficult. The "follow the moving player" AI is exactly as it's supposed to work, and I know they are acting just like they would in any other mission... but just due to the nature of Vizunah Square, that's not the best tactics, since unless you are really lucky and Mhenlo/Togo are standing close enough to each other so as to both be inside Wards etc., "turtling" just doesn't work with two parties in the same place. You have to spread out just a bit, engage mobs on more than one front, not let them gang up on one party too much. At all of the big fights, the arrangement is something like... one spawn point in front and one behind the party, and one more right in the middle of them. The idea is that this middle point can be quickly wiped as it's in the crossfire of both parties, so it is not much trouble. But on those other fronts, you can't just sit near the center and wait for the mobs to come to you. Too many casters stack up, because they won't advance. So when you move your party away from your front to engage them (the hench don't take that initiative at all), that leaves one side dangerously unguarded. The only time this isn't so bad is during the last big fight, because the enemies that spawn "ahead" (direction of the bookstore/shiro'ken) are small spawns throughout. So you usually have time to run back and heal Mhenlo/Togo as necessary. At the other fights, though, the enemies are more evenly distributed so there are constant problems. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 19:07, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the AI / H/H is definitely fail here. 95% of my failures here are caused by double jesus beam rape on mhenlo or togo, the others are Mhenlo and Togo dying before I had a chance to meet up with them - from both sides. Apparently Mhenlo immediately rushes forward if foreign leaves the mission, causing him to die right away.
 * I have also noticed something else, which has killed me quite a few times in HM. If I get grouped with a hench party at local, the foreign team sometimes decides to skip the last group of am fah. However, they will immediately run back to them when the cutscene is over - leaving only your party with Mhenlo and Togo against a horde of afflicted, where they usually die by earlier said Jesus beams. Mystzombie 21:52, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

MMs
I'm not certain with Hardmode, but after playing through this mission a bunch of times with and without MMs, I have come to the conclusion that unless you take multiples and just steamroll over everything (36 minions = gg) they don't really help all that much. H/H and Mhenlo will waste healing spells on them (not to mention the whole bug thing with Mhenlo chasing minions to heal them); they often will get hung up on those lone Afflicted which would normally leave you alone anyway (the ones that spawn from Canthan peasants), and I've not had any siginificant improvement in mission completion time. I still finish anywhere from 20-22 minutes, MM or not.

As far as I'm aware, many many people still swear by taking MMs into this mission (I know I used to); I'm curious if maybe I'm just doin it wrong, or it's because of the buff to RoJ, or something else, but I just don't understand how they are so highly rated. (T/C) 10:26, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * As a meatshield for Mhenlo and the other dude. When the afflicted is hurting the minions, they aint hurting partymembers and more importantly, they aint hurting Mhenlo and the other dude. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 10:51, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not a noob; I know what MMs do and why they're taken. I'm just saying though, that they are not at all essential to victory here unlike many people seem to think, and there are in fact several detriments to bring them along. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 12:18, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I suggest that if the enemy is getting so numerous and close that it can damage the VIPs dangerously, you're failing anyway. It's a bit like Assault on Beknur Harbor really: if they're threatening to overwhelm you, you're doing it wrong. If that's true, you "need" the MMs only if you're doing it wrong. See Rebirth. ;-P Keep in control and all will be peachy. -- ◄mendel► 12:26, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Assault isn't quite the same deal... there are no mission-critical NPCs to protect, and most of the foes are weak enough that you can sweep the floor with them if you take decent AoE. (My Elonian characters always take Acolyte Sousuke for precisely this reason.) I get what you're saying though. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 15:35, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Entropy, I wasn't suggesting you are a noob. Most people at vizuna square are not really good at the game (most of them are pretty newb (not noob)), and they dont have access to heroes and high-end builds. If this is the case, a minion master is a very good way of ensuring that the vips remain safe for the largest part. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 17:33, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Minion masters are by their nature very streaky. If something goes wrong and you lose all of the minions, then you're stuck with a minion master without minions exactly when you really need something powerful.  It's also possible that the change to ray of judgement makes a huge difference in the effectiveness of minions here since I've played.  Quizzical 17:46, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * If something goes wrong and you lose all of the minions, it can also mean up to around 1000 points of PBAoE to clumped group of enemies (Death Nova), full health bar to everyone in your party (Dwayna's Sorrow), and full energy bar to every necromancer in your party (Soul Reaping). If this was enough to kill two of your opponents, it also means you'll have 4 minions pretty soon again, unless the opponent has a way of disposing of the corpses.  IMO minions are not meant to stay, they are meant to die - much of their power is in the way they die, and sometimes also in the way they are created. Kitsunebi 06:13, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Beknur @ lvl 15 ftw. It is my opinion that people who simply level up to get past difficult spots are playing the game wrong because they're missing on opportunities to learn valuable tactical skills. -- ◄mendel► 18:51, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

There's number of tactics you can try on this mission in normal mode. Heavy AoE damage is one, overwhelming numbers of minions is one, both can work fine. Yet another is to use the large number of corpses through wells or putrid explosion, or the like. Like mentioned before, you might not have a very versatile skill selection for heroes at this point (assuming you have heroes available at all), so a lot can depend on your own professions (e.g. if you play an elementalist, you might have a solid set of elementalist skills and good understanding on how to use them). In hard mode, on the other hand, I do find that bringing a couple of MM along makes it a whole lot more doable. When playing alone with H/H party, and getting henchies from other side, it's the only composition I've managed to get hard mode masters with. Kitsunebi 05:59, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * In easy mode, if you're bringing heroes to a mission meant to be done without them, then of course a lot of things will work. In hard mode with henchmen/heroes, I tried bringing two minion masters, and found it ineffective.  There are too many critical defensive skills that you need to survive and keep the other party alive that you can't bring if you're loading up on minion masters instead.  With multiple players and a lot more heroes, you have a lot more flexibility, so bringing multiple minion masters makes more sense.  Quizzical 06:55, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * During the zquest days, you can easily get 2 human parties. Mine (local) had one MM, the other (foreign) had two. The local only had one monk, en she didn't even break a sweat. A shit load of minions (30 total), + 16 players, and two stupid NPC's made for one big fragfest. It was epic. Everything went KABOOM. Both parties having a Stay Young! spamming warrior helped a bit as well. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 11:14, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Bringing PvE-only cheat codes does tend to make things easier. That's about as useful to note as commenting that consumables make things easier, too.  Vizunah Square hard mode is only hard if you're going henchmen/heroes, or matched up with incompetent players on the other side.  Quizzical 17:42, 25 June 2009 (UTC)