User talk:Azroth1071

Personal Policy
Any section that is stagnant for a week will be archived here.

Go here and here and read, then decide for your self what to do.

Currently Testing the Viability of…
These are just some theoretical builds that I’m testing to see if they deserve to be added to the Untested builds section. If you want to lend me a hand just post your comments in the corresponding section on my Discussion page. Just please don’t submit one of these builds yourself. If it turns out to be good just let me know and I’ll add it myself. Thanks a lot.

Bestial Strike
I like the look of this, but what is the energy management like? You've got some hefty 10 pointers in there and the assassin doesn't start with much. :) Telboy007 16:13, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
 * To tell you the truth, I was hoping you could tell me, lol. I haven't been able to get my hands on a good pet to try this out with, so I haven't really been able to try it out.  In theory the ~35% chance to Crit. that you get with Dagger Mastery at 12, Critical Strikes at 12, and Critical Eye active will give you 3 energy with each Critical hit.  Then Bestial Fury will boost your attack speed allowing you to get more hits in less time.  But if this is enough to properly manage energy is anyone’s guess.  If anyone could give it a test I would really appreciate it. Thanks.--Azroth 18:28, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
 * A 10 energy attack boost stance takes its toll on a Daggersin quite fast, and the mediocre combo doesn't really make up for the energy used to activate them. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 21:51, 3 September 2006 (CDT)
 * :) Well most of the arguments are about energy managment and I agree with them. However, all is not lost, I think the build would actually do good but as Ranger/assasin instead to balance the energy out (expertise).  The only two critical hits skills that will be lost are critical strike (a bit regretable as it rocks), and critical eye, which is more of a bonus rly than an all powerful skill.  If you want to stay A/R you MUST add one more into the critical strikes attribute.  This allows critical hits to give 3 energy every crit as opposed to 2, and benefits your build greatly (Not a fifty five 02:48, 5 September 2006 (CDT))


 * R/A would be better for energy and I could set up a new combo so as to compensate for the loss of Critical Strikes, but I dont have a Ranger to test it out. I'll play around with it a bit and see what I can do though even if I wont be able to test it out myself.--Azroth 16:49, 5 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Ok. here you go, what do you think of the new R/A one?--Azroth 17:48, 5 September 2006 (CDT


 * 1000% better! This is definately rdy for untested submittal. You have a self heal, good combo, added crippling which solves the problem you had of not being able to use Bestial fury and speed up, and you have the expertise do it all.  Nice!.  Final comment, though.  Try testing without comfort animal.  Heal as one makes it very unlikely your pet will die.  If he never does die before you, you should replace it with some other skill. (Not a fifty five 14:40, 8 September 2006 (CDT))

Heal as One will drop ~120hp on you and your pet with a 12sec reload. This is equal to ~5pips of constant health regen if the skill is used as often as possible. If your pet dies, this skill becomes useless, so you no long have a self heal. So more or less, if your pet is your support, and HaO supports both you and your support, then Comfort Animal is to support your supports and make sure that you can keep up your healing (how's that for a confusing explanation :)[my explanation probably needs an explanation]). Because lets face it, a pet can get aggro'd easily, and will die quickly if they do.  Comfort allows you to revive your pet in 1sec, so that if they die you can bring them back and be able to heal again quickly.  However, I will look into alternatives--Azroth 14:54, 8 September 2006 (CDT)


 * As I stated earlier, I cant test this since I have no Ranger, so all ideas are just theoretical on my part. So I need to ask a favor of someone.  Can someone put this to the test?  In particular, I need to know if this combo can reduce a well armored target to below 50% health, and if Heal as One alone can keep your pet alive (so I know if I can swap out Comfort Animal).  If the combo does bring health to below 50% then Brutal Strike would be an effective variant that could replace comfort if HaO is enough, but I need to know if it would work on any target or just squishy ones.  Thanks a lot.--Azroth 21:05, 8 September 2006 (CDT)


 * With blades of steel in the combo I can say right away that the combo will reduce most armors to <50%. However, one varient you must take into account: healing.  This is why I only bring deep wound with say final thrust: I want to make DARNED sure they're below 50% when I use it!!!!.  I think you're combo would put 70 armor to like 30% health, tho, I'll have to check it. (Not a fifty five 02:05, 10 September 2006 (CDT))


 * Please do, as I'm interested in knowing how much this build will do to each AL. This will influence the varients of the build, and whether or not Brutal Strike is a viable one or not.--Azroth 03:02, 10 September 2006 (CDT)

Channeling Edge
May i ask the where is the Energy Management in this build? Boon of Creation is not enough to support your energy needed in this build. And what are you doing with this build anyway, as in usage? Where is it going to be used, how? Pumping 12 into BM just to use EoE spirit? -- Cwingnam2000 14:57, 3 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Ok, the general idea was that people could submit usage ideas that worked well for them. As for me, the idea was to spike Rt lightning dmg.  Drop a spirit in the beginning, then use Twisting on it.  At the beginning activate Boon.  When entering battle drop EoE.  Drop Destruction just outside your enemy’s agro range.  Active Cruel.  As Destruction’s timer is getting low, run in, active Rage, Draw Destruction, Rupture it, and drop Cruel.  Then you can put up and rupture another destruction if you have enough energy.  The hope is that something will die and trigger an EoE chain.  But this is just a theory.--Azroth 15:20, 3 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I agree with Cwingnam on the awkward usage of Boon of Creation, with three relatively slow recharging spirits. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 21:51, 3 September 2006 (CDT)

Ritual Lord would be a better elite, no? &mdash; Skuld 02:54, 5 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Not rly sure what to say, is this a PvP or PvE build? EoE is rly not a very good pvp skill to be used, theres only one good build that uses it,IWAY, and they only use it because having allies die helps them as much as it hurts them, wheras it only hurts the enemy. Show promise for PvE, but soul twisting aint needed there, and some sort of energy management must be used.(Not a fifty five 02:58, 5 September 2006 (CDT))


 * Yeah, its only PvE, its not like real people will wait for you to set up in a fight, lol. Ritual Lord is better and I'll swap it in, but as for energy I have no idea of what skill to use to manage it better, so some advice would help a lot.--Azroth 16:49, 5 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Boon of Creation, duh? &mdash; Skuld 04:33, 7 September 2006 (CDT)


 * He already got Boon of Creation and we suggested that boon of creation is not enough for energy management in here. He is using only 2 spirit and the energy 'gained' from boon is not enough for the high energy cost spell.-- [[Image:Ritualist-icon-small.png]] Cwingnam2000 06:17, 7 September 2006 (CDT)

What if I was to change the secondary to Mesmer, and then replace EoE with Channeling to maintain energy while in battle?--Azroth 11:38, 8 September 2006 (CDT)

Ok, what do you think of the new one?--Azroth 16:04, 8 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Not bad, but i would dump Boon of creation and get another Energy management from Me or get another damage spell since you should able to get lots of energy from spirit of failure because of Blind from rupture soul. -- [[Image:Ritualist-icon-small.png]] Cwingnam2000 17:24, 8 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Alright, hows this?--Azroth 18:16, 8 September 2006 (CDT)

Right now, the elite slot is pretty much wasted on Ritual Lord, since you wouldn't want to recast Destruction that often and EoE's large area of effect makes it easy to hide from foe (in PvE). For a spell based build, Attuned Was Songkai is really perfect, and in this case here, the duration and recharge will make it synch perfectly with Cruel was Daoshen (so you can alternate between them). For energy management, I'm thinking you could swap one of the other skills (boon of creation mainly) for either Essence Strike or Spirit Siphon. If you're going for a PvE build, you could replace Ancestor's Rage with Spirit Rift. it's more spammable, does more damage and costs barely more (PvE only though, in PvP, people flee). Also, Splinter Weapon could be swapped for Nightmare Weapon. You'd loose a bit of aoe damage but gain some small self heal. --Theeth (talk)   08:17, 9 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Agreed with spirit rift 5 recharge you just cant pass up :), and wow I totally forgot that spirit of failure would work always on blinded foes *grin* I likee :S (Not a fifty five 02:14, 10 September 2006 (CDT))

Yeah, I really like the new set up. As it stands with the elite spell active you could spam Destruction and Rupture Soul to keep your enemies perpetually blinded and thus keep you health and energy up *wide grin*. I think this one is almost ready to be submitted. Besides that though, Spirit Rifts casting time worries me. That along with spamming destruction and you leave yourself very open to interupts. One of my varients for it fixes that, but then I'd be getting low on dmg spells.--Azroth 03:06, 10 September 2006 (CDT)

Critical Weapon
Low damage and a terrible rune spread. It's pretty much all over the place. But it is a workable concept. &mdash; Rapta   (talk|contribs) 21:51, 3 September 2006 (CDT)

As Rapta says the attributes are kinda messy. If three attributes are used its rarely good to have one maxed, and critical hits should rly always be at 13 if you use any skills in it. One last thing. You fell for a build trick that I did once till I lost horribly in RA. You cant in fact hold an item and dagger at the same time haha. Also with only two actual attacks your assasin will miss out on a lot of damage, since daggers without a skill use do practically wand damage. Your first build uses only 3, but all of them have incredibly low recharge times, so it works. (Not a fifty five 03:04, 5 September 2006 (CDT))


 * Actualy I know that you cant hold both. The idea of the Item Spell wasn't to gain health regen as much as it was to activate and then drop to clean up 3 Conditions.  Gonna change the skills and points around a bit because I found this to be realy choppy in fights due to healing so often.--Azroth 16:49, 5 September 2006 (CDT)


 * And just to get this out there, I know that you can only have one Weapon Spell on at a time. The idea is that Weapon of Warding will pair with Wielder's Boon to give better healing and add defenses while healing.--Azroth 17:53, 5 September 2006 (CDT)


 * The 2 attack skill you got is kinda weak, and i would say swap Vengeful Weapon, constantly casting Vengeful weapon will disrupt your attack flow and you might not able to maintain critical defense. -- [[Image:Ritualist-icon-small.png]] Cwingnam2000 22:45, 6 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Yeah, I know, but the initial idea was based around Vengeful Weapon and it kind of sucks to lose it. Is there any other good blocking or evading skill that could replace Crit Def to keep Veng Weap, or if not, what should I replace Veng Weap with?--Azroth 11:38, 8 September 2006 (CDT)

Ok, what do you think of the new one?--Azroth 16:59, 8 September 2006 (CDT)

Looking good :) I think you're right about the resil weapon thing replacing weapon of warding. Ward is better, but resil lasts longer for your wield boon skill thing. (Not a fifty five 02:17, 10 September 2006 (CDT))

Yeah, no matter which one I end up putting in the final build, the other will go into varients as they tend to be about even. It basicly just comes down to more health regen and +armor while under a condition, or less regen and +blocking for less time. It basicly just depends on the situation, and if the area is condition heavy or not.--Azroth 03:15, 10 September 2006 (CDT)

Knock 'n Shock
The general idea is make them sit down/shut up and die (kind of like an electric chair ':P). The Skills are mostly listed in order of activation (sort of). If you want to leave me any input on this build, please specify if you are talking about skill bar 1, 2, or 3. Thanks--Azroth 00:12, 6 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I also used to play a combination of Frozen Burst & Lightning Touch once. It certainly does rock in PvE. However i mostly brought Elemental Attunement, or i Echoed the Touch and increased it with Glyph of Elemental Power. Also used Blurred Vision for another hex, whenever Burst recharges. Feel free to experiment with that ;) --Ineluki 04:32, 7 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I like the echo idea, but the point isnt so much to spam Lightning Touch or hex the enemy, but to keep your opponent on the floor while zapping him to death (kind of like a tazer). my favorite of the 3 sets I made so far is the 3rd because it lets you Gale them from a distance, then quick warp in with Ride the Lightning and get to work with the rest of your spells.--Azroth 11:38, 8 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Seems ok although I'm not so sure about the Shatterstone variant, I like the other two more. Using Gust, it might be difficult to keep a hex up with only Frozen Burst, perhaps Deep Freeze would be better (although it uses heaps more energy). On the Ride the Lightning build you could even use AoD, that way you've got more survivability, a varient perhaps? --Xasxas256 00:09, 12 September 2006 (CDT)

The Shatterstone variant provides the dmg in a bit more of a spike style because of the 3 sec delay on half of the dmg. Its interesting, but I admit not the best of the three on its on, but it may have team spike potential depending on whether or not it performs like a spell or a hex when multiple copies are put on a target at once. I'm looking for another Water Spell that could be used for a similar amount of energy with the Gust variant, and when I find one that would work I'll update it to include it as a variant. AoD is pretty :). I never thought about the possibility of another profession because my points are already spread across three attributes, but AoD doesn't need any points and would be nice for getting in and out quickly where as Ride the Lightning is only good for getting in(If only it did dmg as well *sigh*).  I'll definitely add this as a variant, thanks for the tip.--Azroth 13:55, 12 September 2006 (CDT)

Vampiric Aura
The idea here is to do a lot of armor ignoring damage relatively quick by pairing the effects of Vampiric Spirit and Dark Aura with the spells and 10% sacrifice skills of Blood Magic. To maximize effectiveness, lure your target away from the group so that VS will only have one choice for a target. Dark Pact is the arguably the best spell in this build because of its low energy cost, low casting time, low recharge time, and because it triggers the effects of both VS and DA.--Azroth 23:36, 6 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Why Elementalist main? -- [[Image:Ritualist-icon-small.png]] Cwingnam2000 08:00, 8 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Mainly becuase the +3 energy cost of spells from VS cant realy be handled by any other classes energy management (trust me, I've tried). Also, with the Aura of Restoration varient you get better health management than with other classes (besides monk) since all the spells have pretty good casting and rechange time {man Dark Pact works well with this :)}--Azroth 11:38, 8 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Good idea using VS and DA together. There are a few problem however. First of all with all this adjacent things its hard to get dark pact to trigger VS and DA to hit the target if he is not slowed. Secondly, ele is good in the short run, but in the long run energy storage is not very good without an elite of that sort. One thing you might want to look into is a n/me with inspiration magic. Lastly, you can dump a few skills to support this inspiration magic. e.g. you dont need both touch and wallows: you can spam dark pact and wallows back and forth with little if no (due to aftercast) delay. Secondly strip enchant isnt needed (tho it is useful): nothing stops lifestealing skills and only SB/Shadow veil can stop the rest or even reduce it. Dont underestimate inspiration, channeling alone will give you +1/spell because you get in touch range of your target. (Not a fifty five 14:56, 8 September 2006 (CDT))


 * I'll look into it and get back to you on the viablility of that.--Azroth 15:11, 8 September 2006 (CDT)

Ok, the only Inspiration spells that seemed good for constant energy management were Power Drain, Power Leech, and Spirit of Failure. All others had either to long of a reload, or cost enough energy that the gain would be insignificant. Channeling would be nice, but to maximize dmg on your target you want to try and pull them away from the main group so that VS will only target them. Therefore you won’t get much energy return out of it. Power Drain is only really effective if your target is a spell caster, so it will only work half the time. Power Leech is an elite so that wont work. And finally Spirit of Failure will only give you a return 25% of the time against melee opponents. It’s sad, but none are really a dependable source of energy, if you consider that you'll be spending 8 or 13 every 1 or 2 seconds.  If you think of anything that would be better at energy management let me know.  As it stands, [[Energy Storage might not be the easiest to refill, but it will at least hold out for a good 60-80 energy easy.--Azroth 16:32, 8 September 2006 (CDT)


 * lol funny idea, I dont know if its viable at all, but have you considered a r/n "touch vamp spirit" for expertise?
 * nm counter that, VA wont work on skills grrrr... (Not a fifty five 03:10, 10 September 2006 (CDT))

Yeah, plus no other spell or skill recognises the +3 energy cost from VS as part of the cost of the spell its attached to. So even if Expertise did apply to spells, I doubt it would have any affect on the +3.--Azroth 03:17, 10 September 2006 (CDT)

Displaced Aggression
This is designed to not heal because to finish the combo you need to get below 78% health. Besides that this build does about 400dmg just in additional dmg alone.--Azroth 18:04, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

Truce?
While I commend your efforts to forge a "truce" between me and 55, I was not aware that there is a war. He wants to paint this as some personal dispute, I do not know this person, I have never been involved with him in any discussion prior to that incident and I have only been laying down the law. You can cater to his theory that there is a personal war going on, but there really isn't. I saw a request for admin intervention on Tanaric's page and I decided to investigate. That is all there is to it. --Karlos 05:28, 10 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I understand that (believe me), but I think that at this point this has escalated to more that just a user getting punished for bad behavior by an admin. More and more people are getting involved in this, and taking shots at 55.  As a result this is becoming a war, not between u and him so much as between him and several other members of the wiki.  The truce isn’t so much for your benefit as it would be for his and the wiki's.  As it stands this continues to go on because people keep attacking him and he keeps fighting back.  But if he and you agreed to the truce, then he would be bound by its terms to not respond to any more of these comments about him, so this whole thing would just die and we could all get past this event.  Besides that however, if even one good policy change came out of an official page for this discussion it would benefit the wiki and would mean that something good had come out of this whole ordeal.  Would it be possible for you to comply to the terms of the truce, or am I assuming admins have more power here than they actually do?--Azroth 12:19, 10 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Again, I don't even understand how can there be a truce when there is no feud. So, he promises not to do that again and I do what? Give him a cookie? Put a medal icon on his user page? You are talking about making changes to the build vetting process. This is sweet and dandy, but any changes to the build veting process will be a result of those who care about it and are working on improving it (on Guildwiki talk:Builds and talk:Builds), not an overhaul by Karlos just to make 55 feel better. Do you understand why the terms of this truce are not even acceptable? On the one hand, one user "promises" to "behave" in a certain way... On the other, an admin just goes in and changes the build process. There are a LOT of people working on the build process and I am not chief among them (like Xeeron). I have no business stepping and changing it to your liking or to the terms of that truce. That would make a mockery of all the work they ever did and actually make his precedent of "vandalism for change" successful.
 * So, in conclusion, I appreciate your efforts to intervene, but there are a few points to think about as I think you should place your efforts elsewhere:
 * There is no war going on between me and 55. There was poor action and disciplinary/penal action. I welcome your input on my user talke page if you felt the disciplinary action was bad/ineffective/so forth. But your portrayal that it was personal only serves to undermine the value of the disciplinary action itself.
 * If 55 is having problems with others because he vandalized build pages (not because he got banned), then that is a result of his own edits that he will need to deal with. You are welcome to step in and ask for cooler heads and I hope your calls are heeded. However, I don't think my ban was what made people upset at him, judging by their edits. My involvemnt in this part would be to make sure no one steps out of line or assaults the other people's characters.
 * The basic concept of your truce is that I just go ahead and do certain things you are suggesting to the builds process as some sort of extending an olive branch. This is categorically rejected as I will not go about making changes to the process in the wiki to make a user feel better (about a ban I feel he deserved to begin with). Changes take place in the wiki because people championed them and made a case for them. Not as a consolation for hurt feelings.
 * Thank you. --Karlos 14:10, 10 September 2006 (CDT)

Alright, I see your point, but I feel you slightly misinterpreted what I was suggesting. I never intended to make it sound like you should just go in and carve up the build section as "a consolation for hurt feelings". What I meant was that it seems like the discussions about the build vetting process seemed to be scattered across the wiki. I was merely suggesting that you (or anyone with the power to really) should try to consolidate all those discussions into one location so that everyone involved in this ongoing debate (about builds, not 55) could have one place to express their feelings about it and hear what everyone else has to say. If it looks like the only discussion on this issue is already consolidated to one page then I guess there is no need for this. My proposal was based on the assumption that all the scattered debates I stumbled across were still on going. The other half was only a suggestion, I tried to word it so that it wasn't mandatory, but only something to consider as it seemed that most of the complains that I've seen since I stumbled upon the wiki tended to be about the kind of votes that 55 seemed so pissed about.

I never meant for any of it to be you doing something for 55. My actual intention was that by consolidating the debates on vetting and the build process in general you could kill two birds with one stone. You said that "Changes take place in the wiki because people championed them and made a case for them." My only intention was that by consolidating the discussion, these people who have championed change can be better heard by the rest; and that by doing so 55 would have no reason to take any other extreme action. I do agree that what he did was the wrong way to go about making a point, and that you were within your rights to ban him, I was just merely proposing a solution to 55's problem that could benefit everyone. The reason I called it a truce between you and him was not because arguments were sprouting up about you banning him, but because it seemed that in the previous categories on 55's page, all arguments spawned off of 55 saying one thing, you replying, and then several people jumping in and taking sides. I didn't include you because banning him was the problem, I included you because it seemed that by the mere action of continuing to try and explain yourself to him, and put and end to the problem, the opposite was happening and more people were taking sides (all of them against 55 it would seem) and just causing this to spiral into a situation where he felt it was him against the world. All I was trying to do was find a way in which to end the escalation of an argument which never should have started (but 55 seems to be a little bull headed). That’s all. Sorry about the length of this but I felt I needed to clear this up a bit and better explain my intentions before you banned me for being uncooperative :P jk jk jk jk jk(nothing personal, I probably would have banned him too).--Azroth 15:04, 10 September 2006 (CDT)

Anyway, if you are talking about me taking side, i didn't. I'm just thinking that 55 demand an apologies from the public/community is unreasonable. No one person insults him, we tried to explain to him but he/she never listen. whatever, im not going to involve in this debate anymore. -- Cwingnam2000 16:34, 10 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Probably for the best. As it stands I'm about 3 posts (assuming no headway is made) away from giving up here.--Azroth 16:38, 10 September 2006 (CDT)

Hey, sorry, I should have added this here too. No more talk is rly needed, I've contacted tanaric on the matter and he'll decide. (Not a fifty five 16:46, 10 September 2006 (CDT))


 * Ok, just promise me that that no matter what Tanaric decides, you'll take it as the Final statement in this issue and not persue it any farther, no matter what. Ok?--Azroth 17:00, 10 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Ayup tho we're currently currently discussing it, the admins and I. They're pretty much saying they can ban me for picking my nose if they wanted, I'm not sure why they didnt tell me that before setting up an arbitration o.O.  Anyways mind if I move this to my page? It kinda clutters yours up >.< (Not a fifty five 14:03, 12 September 2006 (CDT))

Sorry I didn't respond earlier, another user's change covered up yours while I was checking my page so I didn't notice this one. As for your request, You can copy it to your page if you want, but I still want to keep it as well just as a reference (I've got an archive so I'll just put it there ina few days to save space). That ok?--Azroth 17:01, 12 September 2006 (CDT)

Touch Elementalist-Experimental
This build is really interesting. I like how you sidestep Ether Prodigy's enchantment loss side effect. And you have all my favorite blood magic spells too (used in a way i hadn't imagined). I'm curious if Ether Prodigy is enough energy management for all those spells? Also I wonder if an elementalist's armor is a bit soft for going into touch range? Or are those more like emergency skills? Do you use this build for PvE or PvP?

I'm new on Guildwiki so I hope this is the appropriate way to provide feedback. I was also wondering if I could borrow your layout for my user page as I don't really know what I'm doing enough to create my own, but I'm interested in getting some feedback on build ideas. Thanks. -- Mt Heart Attack 12:31, 12 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Thanks, I appreciate that you like the build and my page. However, I can't give you permission to use it as I didn't create it.  I've only been here for about a month myself.  I got the format for my page from Helena.  So you should post a message on her talk page if you want to use this format.  Other than that though, the energy management seems about even to how a Touch Ranger players because the extra energy regen makes this build perform similarly to having Expertise.  There is a problem however if you go against too many people too quickly.  Touch Rangers have Offering of Blood to add extra energy when their pool gets low, where as this doesn't.  So as it stands, a ranger is a bit better at this job than an Elementalist, but in PvP, no one would be expecting a touch Ele so it has some advantages, where as if an opponent sees a R/N they expect to be fighting a toucher and adjust their playing style accordingly.  The armor doesn’t make too much of a difference as you keep regenerating health throughout the battle.  Oh, and welcome to the wiki.--Azroth 13:38, 12 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Yeah I'd imagine the surprise factor would be fun. Thanks for the tip, I will leave Helena a message. -- Mt Heart Attack 14:40, 12 September 2006 (CDT)