User talk:Dr ishmael/Archive 9

Well then
Time to clean house. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 21:49, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

looks great
Its eerily good, dude. Congrats to you and everyone else involved. JediRogue 17:19, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Where the crap you beed, dawg? [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 19:03, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Well done and thank you
Thank you for all the time and effort you have contributing to helping Guild Wiki arrive here safely and smoothly. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 19:47, 1 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I really appreciate it. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 20:21, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

German interlanguage table
The German GuildWiki staff have provided a copy of their interwiki table at http://www.guildwiki.de/vorlage-en.txt. Do you think you could bot the reverse interlanguage links onto GuildWiki? --◄mendel► 15:03, 3 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Wow. o_o Yeah, I can do that, just can't promise when I'll have time for it.  Poke me if I don't get to it by next Friday.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 15:16, 3 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Okay, documenting the problem:
 * I can connect to the API, and action=query request work fine, but whenever I try action=edit&nocreate=1 (so it won't create a page that didn't previously exist), I get a 'missingtitle' error. When I leave nocreate undefined, the result is that the page Api.php gets created.
 * I can run action=edit&nocreate=1 on my local MediaWiki install successfully.
 * If $wgEnableWriteAPI is turned off on my local wiki, then I get a 'noapiwrite' error instead.
 * So it looks like the write API is enabled here, but something else is causing an error. I get the same results whether I'm using Perl's MediaWiki::API module or cURL.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 04:09, 4 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I'd forgotten that AWB actually uses the API as well. And so does pywikipedia, which I looked into last night.  Which means we are completely borked for automated editing right now.  There is an old Perl module that doesn't use the API, but it probably wouldn't work correctly with the current version of MW.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 19:01, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Just a note because I saw you added the first of them: you might want to replace any underscore by a space when adding the interlanguage links to articles, MediaWiki will create the correct links but it will look nicer when viewing an article's source. ;)--Tera 23:00, 6 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Generally, this is complete, although I did have to skip a lot of stuff. I have all of these saved in separate files so someone can review them.
 * EN link was to an article section: 15
 * EN link was to GWW only: 268
 * EN link was to a redirect page: 487
 * EN link was to a missing page: 631
 * Multiple DE pages linked to the same EN page: 569
 * DE links created: 13,600
 * &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 18:00, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks a bunch! I've left a note over at guildwiki.de asking for help; could you upload those lists of links that need review (if they'd be linkified to point here or to :de: that'd be awesome)? --◄mendel► 05:45, 8 December 2010 (UTC)


 * /de &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 17:23, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I passed it on. --◄mendel► 18:42, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Image redirects
Why don't they work? mw:Manual:$wgFileRedirects suggests that they ought to. --◄mendel► 16:48, 4 December 2010 (UTC)


 * "Removed in version: 	1.13.0" I've checked the source code - when parsing redirects, it specifically checks that the current namespace is not NS_FILE.  Wikia hacked the MW code to re-enable them, but we shouldn't follow their example.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 17:00, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Humble Request
To celebrate the move here on Curse, i'd like to improve my userspace to higher standards: Can i borrow some code from your userpage to better customize mine? Sotaknuck 16:52, 4 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Of course. &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 17:33, 4 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you! It looks and feels much better now! Sotaknuck 10:01, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Images
Whenever you get the chance, upload your skill icons that have no borders to mediafire or something in a archive (.7z would be great, highest compression rate, and less loss), I don't need names. Just keep em sorted by skill ID#. It's actually easier because without names windows can't flip out @ forbidded characters in filenames :) Thanks :) (also: pick any profession) &mdash; Scythe   20:44, 5 Dec 2010 (UTC)


 * Archive compression doesn't matter much when you're dealing with pre-compressed image files, the best you can get is usually 10-15% compression. Anyway, have fun - http://www.mediafire.com/?w1a7572k46acvw0  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 23:02, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
 * tyvm ishy, they're all uploaded as animations now :D &mdash; Scythe   0:27, 6 Dec 2010 (UTC)

Heyo
Want to start revamp'ing the infoboxes?– alistic 22:23, 5 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I was planning on doing that as the SMW project progressed. Next on my list is locations, since that ties in to the whole Nicholas project.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 02:16, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

A History of Violence
Just in case you didn't see on IRC: Wizardboy777 18:16, 7 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I noticed that problem a few pages later with [ this page]. I fixed the problem and restarted from that point, but the page you found had already scrolled out of my DOS window's buffer, unfortunately.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 18:40, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Dammit
You beat me to the move of Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant, and the talkpage message. Stop being faster than me --  Random Time  00:31, 12 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I suppose you're just irrelephant, then. :P &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 00:32, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Haw haw --  Random Time  00:34, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

MediaWiki:TravelerUnknown
Does it still work? Should it become a Widget? --◄mendel► 23:26, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I doubt it will work here, we don't have the necessary framework set up. Or do we?  I dunno.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 23:34, 16 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Moved to Widget:TravelerUnknown, and it works, mostly. $wgEnableMWSuggest has to be turned on in LocalSettings for the auto-complete feature to work (and that will also turn on auto-complete for the sidebar's search box).  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 18:17, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

CurseFooter
The analytics and footer should probably be two separate extensions and where do I stick advertising~ --68.56.228.159 15:26, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

I forgot to log in. -- Bumble talk 15:27, 18 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Why do they need to be separate extensions? I can make them separate functions in the same extension, and set configuration parameters where you can enable/disable the footer or the trackers individually.  Under that framework, ads would just be a third function.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 18:17, 18 December 2010 (UTC)


 * It would be awesome if the editors (= logged in users) would be exempt from ads, since they're the ones creating the content. If you would run some statistics and see whether you can afford that, it'd be great (I'd forego gimmicks and gadget rewards if I could have that); it would also allow those of us who are curse.com premium users site the luxury of no ads. (Or do you check that differently?) --◄mendel► 18:25, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Armor Gallaries Question
Are the guidelines for displaying armor very strict and inflexible? Specifically, if an armor gallery is perfect but "enable post-effects" is on/enabled, does that part need to be retaken and replaced? Or is it "good enough"?--BladeHanover2 15:39, 20 December 2010 (UTC)


 * User:Rose Of Kali is the one who really oversees the armor galleries project, so you should probably ask her for a final opinion. Personally, I find post-processing effects to be annoying because they create a huge glare spot on the armor that washes out the color/details in that area.  You could avoid that by turning the character away from the sun, but then you have the opposite problem of everything being dark and washed out.  Lack of anti-aliasing is also a bit of a bother, leaving jagged edges around the character that are kinda distracting.  So I always recommend turning PP off and setting AA to 4x.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 16:05, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, see here. &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 16:06, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Irc Inquiry
I found this after you asked a question in irc and went to bed. I'm gonna quote post it here... "Kaelten: The curse overload errors in question are related to a backend error that's showing up" "Kaelten: guessing ish has some hard coded hosts entries still" "Kaelten: so he was always getting routed to the bad node" Hope that helps. Ariyen 08:43, 27 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Ugh, no one ever mentioned that I needed to remove that after the site went live. &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 14:20, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I saw that after you disappeared and decided to post it. I figured it'd help you out. Btw, thank you for the fixes on my talk page. :-) Ariyen 17:23, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh shoot, I need to fix that too. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png|link=User:Felix Omni]] 19:29, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Poke
Since you seem to be around, and I can't figure this out, Template talk:Costume box. Rose Of Kali 14:33, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Oppressor's weapons aren't in the zip file. Rose Of Kali 23:38, 27 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Check the "White Mantle" subfolder. I named the files before they were actually revealed in-game, and I forgot to go back and correct the filenames.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 23:45, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, thanks! Missed that one. Rose Of Kali [[Image:Rose Of Kali SIG.png]] 23:48, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

German interlanguage table, take 2
partially copied from User talk:Dr ishmael/de

Looks like there's a fair bit missing between "Hesham" and "Miner's chest", alphabetically. [..] This was split up and copied to Interlanguage de project/*, so it'd be neat if any corrections would be applied there. --◄mendel► 16:08, 6 January 2011 (UTC)


 * You fix it then. I never really cared about this project in the first place.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 18:32, 6 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't know what happened to the missing part of the log. How would I go about getting a current database dump?
 * The project is uncovering a number of articles that we're missing, I wonder if that is of value? --◄mendel► 19:21, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Bonesnap Turtle
The edit that I made was a needed clarification. Following the directions that are currently posted leads one to fight a large amount of Crimson Skull, with one bonesnap turtle hiding on the west side of Haiju Lagoon. I do not understand this 'fourth wall' comment you are referring to, as 'breaking the fourth wall' refers to bringing something into reality that is fictional. By a more accurate, or 'precise' I should say, description, I was able to inform those who would wish to farm these turtles their exact location instead of having them wander about like headless zombies like I did with the current poor description. I am not trying to be rude, just helpful. People often ask me for a good farming spot for this; I wanted to contribute to help people find it. If you can use my information and edit in a way that more suits the required format for the pages, please do. Thanks. Paladin4222003 05:07, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I think he was referring to your mention of "the map marker." But since bonesnap turtles appear all over Haiju Lagoon, perhaps we should only mention the largest group, if farming is the goal. IIRC, the group you were talking about (north of Zen Daijun, along the edge) is the largest group... but you made it sound like it was the only group. It just needs to be rewritten a bit more, nothing wrong with that. --Macros 06:57, 11 January 2011 (UTC)


 * "'breaking the fourth wall' refers to bringing something into reality that is fictional." It can also mean the reverse: bringing something from reality into the fiction.  As Macros already pointed out, it was the mention of the "map marker" in this case.
 * If you want to "note" the best place to farm them, then add that to the "Notes" section (like Macros has already done). You might also make a note of why people would want to farm them, because I don't know why anyone would want to farm bones.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 14:07, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Bonesnap Shells are used in the Canthan New Year dishes. 63.232.208.113 00:08, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Gadgets
Have a look at mw:Extension:Gadgets, a list of examples is at commons:Special:Gadgets. Basically, what it does is to allow users to add Javascript via their Preferences as if they'd added it to their personal .js if it has been set up as a gadget. An old aquaintance is the "purge tab", and I'm sure this would work well for the gww switcher or maybe even WidEd, plus any admin tools etc. that you've got set up.

Advantages:
 * javascript "wiki extensions" can be centrally managed and updated
 * easy for people to use them
 * still opt-in only
 * easy to disable/enable gadgets for wiki debugging etc.

I thought this might be a step up from the "find and copy the feature from Dr Ishmael's personal javascript" sharing process we have now. ;-P --◄mendel► 19:21, 25 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, I thought we had attempted to move the "repository" to Forum:Coding/Javascript (considering I had never used some of those personally in the first place), but some people *cough*Ernie*cough* continued copying from me anyway. This extension basically makes it easier for people to do the same thing.
 * Page-top tabs are easy candidates for becoming gadgets, as you pointed out, as well as hideUser (although I still think that would work even better as an extension). WikEd is already set up as a gadget on WP.  The UTCLiveClock gadget looks like a cleaner implementation of poke's displayTimer function.  Wikipedia also has a number of additional gadgets that might be useful.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 20:38, 25 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, ignore what I do and do as Ish or Mendel say. I love WikEd, but I had trouble with it on Wikia and have since turned it off. Be great to have some of these things more easily without guessing at how to implement them. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 22:10, 25 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I've installed Gadgets to the repository, hopefully it will get pushed live soon. &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 19:36, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

speedy
It's either a script, or lots of tabs and a really fast hands. I'm inclined to believe both. :o &mdash; Scythe   20:32, 27 Jan 2011 (UTC)
 * Or Dr Ishmael forgetting that Bot ishmael ‎ has admin rights. --◄mendel► 23:15, 27 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I can never remember whether I'm supposed to use my bot account to spare RC from the flood or whether I'm not supposed to use my bot account to hide stuff. I primarily only use the bot account through AWB these days.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 23:36, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, when I wrote that comment I was just thinking that use of the bot account would've indicated that the changes were being made automatically; don't read too much into it, please. (Is there a way to construct a URL that will set up the move page with a move target? That would be a nice way to do it semi-automatically.) This specific action wouldn't have been hidden from anyone following RC in either case since you made some announcements regarding it. --◄mendel► 00:13, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Luciferus
What exactly did you change in the block, besides the time? I had checked the first 2 boxes, which I assumed to include the IP block. Did I do something wrong? Rose Of Kali 14:09, 1 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I couldn't tell from the block log whether you had done that or not. Now, I think I've figured out that when you don't include the IP block, it says "autoblock disabled" in the log.  So, meh.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 14:13, 1 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Ah, ok, was just wondering. :P I'm new at this. ^_^ Rose Of Kali [[Image:Rose Of Kali SIG.png]] 14:31, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Isn't there a way of editing that in MediaWiki to autoblock the Ip and User? I think it's a possibility, but I'm not sure. Ariyen 14:41, 1 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Huh? There is a checkbox to choose whether you want to block the IP and disable user creation, or just block the username. It just doesn't clearly show that in the block summary, so Ish couldn't tell if I did that or not, so he just did it again to be sure. Rose Of Kali [[Image:Rose Of Kali SIG.png]] 14:44, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, okay. Usually, I feel when one is blocking a user - the ip should be blocked as well. I was confused. ^.^ Ariyen 17:53, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Usually, but not always. Dynamic IPs make this a little trickier. Rose Of Kali [[Image:Rose Of Kali SIG.png]] 00:17, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
 * That's true, still can't be sure of what ips would be "static" and what ones are dynamic. Ariyen 02:04, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
 * This is why I would try to avoid IP blocks unless necessary. Don't want random people being assigned to a dynamic IP that was blocked and going "WTF? Why am I blocked?" while the culprit is already on another IP anyway, so the IP block would have no effect on him. Basically, if you choose to IP block someone and they quickly come up with another sockpuppet anyway, then it's probably a bad idea to IP block him, and you'd have to just bite it and keep blocking the socks. Rose Of Kali [[Image:Rose Of Kali SIG.png]] 13:15, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, if an ip is blocked from a vandal, etc. I think one should have a way to contact them to be available and I think that's why so many have such information on here, except I would have done captcha... The reason for contact is for others that use the ip addresses, other than the person that's banned, to contact the staff. Otherwise, I can understand an ip being banned to keep users like Jericho from creating another account and socking behind the ban. Even if it may or may not be static and we don't know either way... It'd best to be safe and easier to deal with problems, by blocking the ip as well as the user. I think it tells on the ip that if you're not the user that used that ip to cause an issue for a ban to be placed to contact the staff.  I hope I make sense. ^.^ Ariyen 17:18, 2 February 2011 (UTC)


 * You barely make sense, but your concerns are baseless. The wiki's "you've been blocked" page already provides a link to the admin info.  Enabling the IP auto-block will block the user's last-used IP as well as any other IPs they log in from for the duration of the block; the IP auto-blocks expire after 24 hours, so there's no lasting effect on "innocent" users due to IP auto-blocking.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 17:29, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
 * 1. I wasn't being specific and it was a general view. 2. I wasn't bringing up any concerns, so they're not baseless - since they're not concerns. 3. I guess I shall be specific this time..
 * See, when one is banned, they'll see the msg you linked. which links to the emails. So, I was saying knowing those that do usually use a certain ip, etc. can be banned (though - it is auto as you say). Banning both the user and ip can benefit as well, at least - it can try to prevent socking and more disruption. I was in a round about way making that suggestion People can use the administration link to contact the admin that banned the Ip or another admin, if the IP is not static - to contest the ban. So you wouldn't have those that by-pass and sock - if the ip was banned. I was also making a suggestion to use captcha to keep from having so many of these programs stealing the emails and flooding them with junk. I do know from experiences with websites, etc. that any visible email is captured and used to have junk sent to them. I used captcha for anyone to get my email and it is used on many sites including gww - this helps to prevent spam and stuff. I hope this clears things up a bit more. 72.148.31.114 23:13, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
 * ^^This confused the heck out of me, tbh... Ariyen? If so, pls sign in or at least say it's you. Now... Links to what emails? Knowing whom and how? If someone really wants to sock, they can proxy, so a ban frenzy can't fix everything, and isn't always the best option. Use captcha where to prevent email stealing from where? We don't have visible emails, afaik, unless you make yours so on purpose or reply to a wiki email. Also, Ish, feel free to move this if it's annoying you. :P Rose Of Kali [[Image:Rose Of Kali SIG.png]] 01:18, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

"Links to what emails?" Ones displayed here. "If someone really wants to sock, they can proxy, so a ban frenzy can't fix everything," Agree. "Use captcha where to prevent email stealing from where?" here or any place on this site that shows an email address. "Knowing whom and how?" Ips that link mostly to the same user page or user that uses the ip, such as mine above and another user that's claimed their ip. Not easy, but something to think/check about... Ariyen 04:56, 3 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I'll let Rose handle this one: "We don't have visible emails, afaik, unless you make yours so on purpose" Those admins knew what they were doing when they put their emails there.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 05:11, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, but I was just wanting to be helpful to help against spam, etc... for the admins, etc. that have their's exposed. 72.148.31.114 16:44, 3 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I still don't see where and how you would put in the captcha on the admin info page. o_O Like, enter captcha to see the admin info, or what? Don't know if that's even possible. Hiding admin info behind a captcha is not necessary, each admin decides for themselves what info to give, e.g. I only gave my private wiki-mail link.
 * Vandals are usually new, so there's no IP history to look up, like yours. However, consider using the "Keep me logged in" box, since you usually edit from the same location anyway. Your IP reveals more about you than a made-up username. E.g. Huntsville, AL took only about 15 seconds.
 * As a final lulz, I once made the mistake of writing a review on Amazon with my real name. Now google gives me 359 hits of my name with a review of a SanDisk memory card on websites I've never heard of, and only 24 hits with "SanDisk" removed. *sigh* Rose Of Kali [[Image:Rose Of Kali SIG.png]] 18:36, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I live over an hour from huntsville. :-P Anyway This is about captcha and this is how you can use captcha for email. This is how you use it, to keep from having to display your email address. Nothing about hiding admin info.. Just email addresses from like say bots, etc. Programs that capture visible emails. Ariyen 22:15, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Another example can be seen on my user page. :-) Ariyen 22:25, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * That's neat, but the wiki-mail link is even better, since it doesn't show your email address at all, to anyone, unless you decide to reply to their Emails sent to you through wiki-mail. Our admins are internet-savvy enough to know the risks, and I would leave it up to them to decide whether to show their address, or use an anonymous link like wiki-mail or capthca. Rose Of Kali [[Image:Rose Of Kali SIG.png]] 17:16, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Forum:Bureaucrats‎
Go and participate! You have to! By force of being the strongest contributor to this wiki right now, and hardest to replace, your opinions carry the most weight, and appointing any bureaucrat whose policies you don't agree with is going to be a moot exercise - a lot of wikidrama for nothing, you might say! So please enter the process of forming an opinion and making it transparent what that might be! Don't leave it up to others to guess what you would be ok with! --◄mendel► 07:50, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Wow, mendel, that's a lot of exclamation points! :P Rose Of Kali [[Image:Rose Of Kali SIG.png]] 18:43, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Nick Images
I was curious as to why you felt the need to reload the Nicholas images? I thought they seemed good as they were. Ariyen 23:29, 7 February 2011 (UTC)


 * The wiki didn't properly complete the upload process for last week - it created the thumbnails for the item page and Nick's page, but the File: page was never created. This week's image was cropped too closely; I don't know why the wiki didn't save the original version.  (The files I deleted were, as noted, duplicates of my versions due to the wiki being very slow in processing the uploads.)  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 23:49, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, I wonder on the hiccups being with more images... I have noticed a few more hiccups with some images. I think I left an email and/or a message above about it... I'm glad it's fixed now (it is fixed, right?) 72.148.31.114 01:56, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Concepts
I feel some things need to be changed. I looked at the iteminfo template to find that each item like sweets, alcohol, etc. had a "concept". So, I checked out the concepts and I found the solution to a problem... The problem is that each item is all tagged into the main category "Consumables" and we have a few sub-categories that do not have the needed items in them... or are duplicated in both... I cannot edit the Concept area to fix them to go to the correct category... For example we have this In category consumables, you have a subcategory for sweets... Which in my opinion, should be for the concept and you wouldn't need the Template:SweetsNavigationBox placing the sweets over in the Category:Sweets. It would have been already done. :-) It's duplicated for the sweets right now in both the Sweets Category and the consumables category... Consumables... is the main category, while Sweets is the sub for it... It's puzzling, but a mess that can easily be fixed. :-) Ariyen 06:11, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, this one Concept:Kits needs some info... >.< Ariyen 06:23, 13 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Concepts are automatically populated based on the semantic query they are defined with. For example, Sweets lists all pages that have a value for Property:Sweetness.  These were intended to replace the subcategories of Consumables (and other top-level Item categories). Thanks for reminding memof this, but since you don't really know what's going on here, please let me take care of it when I have the time.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 06:37, 13 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, I noticed that. :-P Then I will remove the category from the sweets nav box and let you take care of the concepts, properties, and forms and all that type. It's interesting and I do know about it. It's just I'm not going to mess with something while others (you for example) have ideas/uses for it. It looks like less coding hassles, etc. involved. :-) Ariyen 06:50, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

helpfulness
"That's how we've always done that. Please stop...You're meddling in something that you don't fully understand....*sigh* As I said, you don't understand...." If Ari doesn't fully understand, but does have some grasp of what's going on, why keep telling her she doesn't? Why not just explain the rest as TEF did, surely it can't be that hard to do. From an unbias third-party standpoint all I think would happen would be a lot of frustration if I were the target of what you wrote and though about it. "Stop, it's not helping" - Why? "You don't understand" - Help me understand instead of yelling at me that I don't, I hear I'm a quick learner. The explanation is the most helpful, and least rage provocative method out there, and it's what I would have done if I had more category experience. I know you've been around here longer than the sun, and probably tire of explaining things time and time again, but still. &mdash; Scythe   19:50, 13 Feb 2011 (UTC)

Bot reverting
I'd rather you wait until we have more to comment on CP on the changes that I have done. It's not hurting either way and bot-reverting later, to me, would be disrespectful and show not only hostility against me, but the inability to work with any ideas, concerns, etc. It's basically like you're saying "It's fine the way it was". "Do not touch", etc. The old way was good, but very inconsistent... Some pages already had the category that some templates were inserting. There were many issues like that of duplications, etc. Now, if we go the route of the templates inserting the categories, we'd have to remove the same categories off the pages. If you bot revert - I'd like you to check the history of the pages against the navs of include only and see the duplication that I mention and have the bot remove the category from the actual pages. I'd like use to have some sort of plan instead of some templates adding the categories while other templates don't add in a category that the pages have on them. like I saw where some consumables - some templates had the include only cate, and the others that didn't - the pages had the cat. See where I am getting at? I'm trying to find some type of ground where we don't have this "mix-up" that I see that could be fixed. My concern is.. Let's do a senario, if they add in another tonic or summoning stone, etc. and the template does not do the includeonly or never did... it'd be added manually. if it did, great an ease... but not every template had the includeonly and not every page had their cat removed that was also in the includeonly of the template. If there's a way to code it to where the categories only goes on those pages. It might help for users like me who'd like to use some navs - to be able to use them, without having to do a lot of coding, etc. It'd help save some time and be less for a user to do. I know to you that I seem to not be helping, but it's clear to me that you or others have not actually either paid attention or looked to see problems that were already there that I tried "A way" to fix. I know it was not the "best way", but to me it helped solved problems of duplication or missing categories, etc. and when I tried that way... I thought well it could be consistent so we're not looking at some pages and or some templates going why is this here and not there? why is half of this one way and the other half another? Ariyen 20:32, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Skills and Drops
"what? skills don't affect whether enemies drop anything or what they drop" . They do not drop, if you bring skills that can kill them in less than 5 seconds. They do drop, if you use as little "power" like elemental, sos, etc., as possible. Do you nderstand now?72.148.31.114 19:47, 16 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I mow down enemies all the time with SoS and they still drop stuff. &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 19:53, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, but is that over on the noob island with enemies that are low level like level 6? 72.148.31.114 19:54, 16 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Jink just finished farming 75 pincers with her SoS ritualist in Saoshang Trail with no problems. (quote from IM: "I was zooming through there killing them fast and they were dropping things just fine.")  [edit] She just reminded me that there is a bit of anti-farming code that drastically lowers the drop rate for a short while whenever you first enter an area, but there's nothing that tracks the rate or speed at which you kill things.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 20:13, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * That's kind of more so what I'm talking about... People will go in there and not get anything at first and give up. I've gotten drops from get go by using like one or two spirits with my sos. the Vamp and Pain. 72.148.31.114 23:22, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * If they're stopping with the first mob, then they're just not showing any kind of patience. All you have to do is wait a few minutes and they'll drop stuff. When I went ahead and started killing, the first group would drop nothing, then the rest would. Either that, or they have some seriously bad luck with drops. Jink  23:25, 16 February 2011 (UTC)


 * There's been a long-standing rumor about drop rates and how many foes die at once. People have stated that rapid deaths (e.g. due to AoE) result in fewer drops. And folks cite plenty of examples: n00b island farms, vaettir farming, and so forth. The problem is that the evidence is all anecdotal: no one has published a comparison of the results of 10 (or better: 100) farming attempts with everything dying at once vs things dying one at-a-time.


 * So, it's not impossible, but it does seem implausible that the (a) the designers deliberately reduced the drop rate for rapid kills or (b) that somehow the computer can't keep up and loses some of the drops.


 * And, also, as Jink and Dr Ish have stated, the drop rate is lower for the first few kills and/or the first short bit of time, which also gives a misleading impression of overall drop rates. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 08:02, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Hey you
IRC now please 04:49, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Also Jink if she's around [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png|link=User:Felix Omni]] 04:52, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

purge tab
Thank you for making that a gadget! I'm glad to be rid of that out-of-place-looking UTC clock. ;-P --◄mendel► 22:48, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks
Not sure if that was you, or the bot version of you, but I appreciate the help in getting my image for farming Nick items this week up.

--Ascalon Destroyer 19:14, 2 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Oops, I didn't notice that I had done that immediately after you uploaded it. I just came back from lunch, refreshed RC, and saw an image that needed renaming/linking.  If I had looked at the time, I would've waited a few minutes before doing anything.  Sorry!  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 19:17, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Okay fine, whatever.
You're starting to get pissed off at me [], I'm leaving that discussion. --◄mendel► 04:41, 7 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The problem was that you didn't contribute anything constructive with your comments there. What you posted boiled down to, "Here's all the problems I can see, and that's why I think it's a bad idea."  Receiving comments like that make me feel very frustrated, because it feels like you're only working to obstruct me.  When you post constructive comments and actually suggest ways to deal with problems, like you did with the icons on LocationInfo, I don't get frustrated and I can actually continue a conversation with you.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 04:44, 7 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I didn't make the problems, I'm simply pointing them out. Messengers live dangerously.
 * "I see the problem. Do you think we can find a solution?" would be a constructive reaction to a post that you think needs another focus. --◄mendel► 04:58, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree that I ought to have been more appreciative of your effort to bring consistency to the "exits" section; then again, I don't feel that section is in that bad a shape now; maybe some DPL with section transclusion would illustrate this.
 * you didn't contribute anything constructive -- My constructive contributions were about listing map area in a better spot (that was somewhat offtopic), to use the location template with with "exit" names instead of zone names, and "maps that contain a zone, its neighbors, with clearly marked boundaries and portals" (which I admit may be an infeasible ideal, but if we simplify this enough, we may arrive at something beween a full-blown map and the Wikipedia template). --◄mendel► 05:11, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, and re: "it feels like you're only working to obstruct me" -- I am actually making efforts to stay out of your way (unless I have a "constructive" suggestion). I don't always manage that, alas. --◄mendel► 18:32, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, here we go again, so it's time for me to try to keep you two from tearing at each other.
 * Ish, I really don't think Mendel is out to get you. (Paraphrase from real life conversation).
 * Mendel, you raised some good questions, but the way they were presented sounded more criticizing than helpful. (I know "tone of voice" doesn't translate to type very well, and I think that's why problems keep cropping up.) If I may use TEF's first comment on the issue as an example, you can see that he asked a direct question, and pointed out that he found the list of neighbors in the infobox convenient. Your comment gave me the impression of "you want to do this? No way, that ain't going to work." I imagine that's not what you intended at all, but there it is.  Jink  19:02, 7 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I can kinda see where Ish is coming from, between the WoT Hammer and the "I challenge you", and the lack of focus on the topic (perceived off-topic in order to point out some other fault), I can see how it could be perceived as an attack/obstruction. On the other hand, Ish could wrestle the discussion back onto topic and just ignore/"that's off-topic"'d the other stuff. So, conclusions: conciseness can simplify things and if a topic is worth discussing, it's worth keeping on topic. (May come across as patronizing; no intent in that direction.) --JonTheMon 19:37, 7 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I guess what I want to say with these comments is that I don't intend for you to get frustrated at me, and I'm sorry you feel that way. I've talked to Jon (and a bit to Jink) on IRC, and there isn't really any advice for me on how to prevent this that I know how to apply - again, I'm very sorry. I wish it was different. --◄mendel► 06:00, 8 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The problem for me is that your posts usually read as being very negative in their tone and word choice. If you want me to point out some specific examples, I can; I don't want to just throw them out and look like I'm trying to &lt;belittle|bad word, yes, can't think of anything better> you or something.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 00:15, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm going to give a bit of advice. I have been in the "Negative" category myself, with my usage of English. No one is perfect, but I believe that each person that may write "negative", doesn't mean it and that's my version of assuming good faith. As English is not an easy language to use, I can understand why so many don't know the right words to use them and they usually say what is on their mind using the words they know and hoping that others would understand. All I am saying is, while it may seem negative... It may not always be negative. Like AGF, I always try to give the person the "benefit of the doubt" and know they have good intentions, just like anyone else here. Ariyen 00:44, 9 March 2011 (UTC)


 * We've tried before to boil down what part of my posts is "negative", and got nowhere because even at that detailed level, the analyses were still colored by our different biases, and we could not agree. We can certainly try that again, but I wouldn't be surprised if it failed again.
 * Above, you critized one of my posts with these words: The problem was that you didn't contribute anything constructive with your comments there. What you posted boiled down to, "Here's all the problems I can see, and that's why I think it's a bad idea." Wouldn't this apply to your recent comment on the headers change proposal as well?
 * Just a guess: is the type of "negative" you have in mind the same as "controversial, provocative, challenging"? --◄mendel► 22:30, 9 March 2011 (UTC)


 * What do you want from me, mendel? Admission that I'm a stupid hypocrite?  That I don't know what I'm talking about when I criticize you?  That it's my fault alone for consistently overreacting to your criticisms of my ideas?
 * Y'know what, you're right. I am a stupid hypocrite, I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, I do consistently overreact to you, and none of this is your fault at all.  You win.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 13:32, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't want to "win". I want to understand why the problem we're having exists. I don't.
 * You had some insightful posts here which I think helped with that. Why stop? --◄mendel► 15:08, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd rather you find out why cannot assign the same intentions to me when I write criticism that you have when you do it yourself. "I'm a hypocrite" is a label, not an explanation, and I doubt you want to be one.
 * I'd rather you suggested a way for me not to trigger your feeling of frustration so much, given that it's difficult for me to change the way I think, the way I write, and what I like to write about without clearly knowing what the problem is. You even react when I criticise TEF, and TEF replies to me, so to simply not criticise you won't work; the presence of constructive suggestions doesn't always help. What have I ever done to you? What is it about me that you don't understand? I think of myself as an open person, yet you consistently assign intentions to me (in this case, to "win" somehow) that I don't have. The only valid "win" in this situation is to arrive at a state of affairs where it is possible for us to work on wiki projects together without me fearing you'll go into a tiff at some ill-considered phrase of mine, and this should count as a win for both of us. The problem is, I don't see how to get there. --◄mendel► 15:33, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Mendel, if you want to find some middle ground, I think a good place to start would be by presenting your ideas in a more neutral manner. The comments you posted about that template do not invite others to weigh in with their opinions. If you use phrases like "In my opinion,..." or "I feel that..." your statements will sound more neutral and other users will be less likely to infer spite from them. Raj4h 17:05, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * ^This, and just in general. (And, by general, I mean not even just specific to Mendel, but just as a general guideline.)
 * I know that it is commonly taught in English curriculum that this is unnecessary because people will assume you are simply stating your opinion. I might be inclined to listen if real-world experience didn't so often contradict it.  Yes, brevity is something to strive for in writing, but when you're losing all of the nonverbal components of communication that we do on the web, choosing not to omit that phrasing is a good way to convey open-mindedness.
 * It's true that people shouldn't make assumptions about your intentions unless they have good reason to, but everyone is human, and it works best when both sides try to forestall misunderstandings like this. Stating things as directly as you tend to do conveys a sense of challenge, though I believe that isn't your intention at all.
 * There's another part of it that I can't suggest a good solution to, partly because I doubt it's a fair suspicion, but you seem to bring up objections so often it's hard not to get a feeling that you're deliberately playing devil's advocate in many cases. It's important to note I said "feeling," because on a rational level I do believe you are simply presenting and defending your opinion.  Still, I have to fight that feeling when I read your posts when a new disagreement comes up, and that sours things right off the bat.  I suspect by the reactions of others that I'm not the only one who harbors this irrational suspicion, and maybe being honest with you about it will help you in some way.  Perhaps Raj4h's suggestion is a good way to mitigate this as well.
 * In saying this, I'm not taking sides because I don't exactly support Ish's behavior either. I can simply understand it, but there's really nothing for me to say on that issue other than to try to avoid jumping to conclusions, which is unfortunately hard for humans to do.  We all have triggers that push us to do it, and the only way I know of to beat them is through greater self-awareness and vigilance.  I don't think there are any easier ways.  Nwash  [[Image:User-Nwash-Eyes.png|link=User talk:Nwash]] 17:47, 10 March 2011 (UTC)


 * "you seem to bring up objections so often it's hard not to get a feeling that you're deliberately playing devil's advocate" This.  This is exactly what I've been feeling, but have been completely unable to articulate.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 15:20, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The devil's advocate is on our team, helping us make our side stronger. --◄mendel► 00:25, 12 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I know the purpose of a devil's advocate. The problem is that you assume that role so often and with such gusto that it has become difficult to determine whether that's what you're doing, or whether you've just become a cranky old bastard that no one can please.  You rarely give any praise for the good points of a discussion before you start tearing into all the bad points, so it starts to feel like you don't see any good in anything.  As Nwash said, this probably isn't your intent, and the way I expressed it probably a bit exaggerated, but it is most certainly the impression that I'm getting.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 15:34, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
 * You are extremely hard to read sometimes, mendel. I still don't know if you want GuildWars@Wikia to succeed or not. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png|link=User:Felix Omni]] 16:03, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I do not like to stay in the company of people who treat me like a cranky old bastard that no one can please. --◄mendel► 02:03, 13 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Sheesh, I even pointed out that I was exaggerating a bit. &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 02:13, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * And you think I'm too daft to read why? To make that clear, I take offense to the sort of treatment you are exaggerating about. --◄mendel► 02:20, 13 March 2011 (UTC) & 02:22, 13 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Y'know, for all that you harp on other people (including me) for being unable to accept criticism, you sure put up a fuss anytime you get criticized. &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 02:34, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I did not accept that you implied I was unable to see you were exaggerating. Your implication was not a criticism, this is either a misunderstanding or an insult. Thus, it has nothing to do with me not accepting criticism. --◄mendel► 02:44, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Would it be better if I stopped trying to correct these misunderstandings? --◄mendel► 02:45, 13 March 2011 (UTC)


 * No, just forget about it. I apologize for the completely misconstrued exaggeration.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 02:56, 13 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I do not like to stay in the company of people who treat me like a cranky old bastard that no one can please (even if that is probably a bit exaggerating the impression they have of me). --◄mendel► 02:56, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Stop, both of you. This is spiraling downward faster than even my most cynic thoughts. I'd encourage both of you to spend at least a day away from the issue. Please. ∵Scythe∵ 04:41, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Wall of Text
''This WoT has been in the works a week. It touches on issues I brought up on the admin noticeboard as well. It is now partially outdated by Dr Ishmael's "response" on my talkpage, but I felt I ought to post it anyway since it clarifies my position.''  Arguments are to be avoided; they are always vulgar and often convincing. -- Oscar Wilde

NWash, you're actually the one person I regret having sent a pile of critical thoughts to before they had matured into a balanced review. Had I waited longer - weeks, or maybe a few months -, I would have been able to include my realizations which parts of your storytelling had staying power, and praise you for them accordingly. My only consolation (and a poor one at that) is that I never represented my writings as a full or balanced review to you, though I still feel I failed. Your reaction made me realize how much of an effect negative criticism can have on someone, especially if it's true; and Dr Ishmael's reactions mirror that.

I admire PanSola for being a master of the balanced review: he would usually take his time to do one, consider deeply, and only when satisfied write something that had a lot of power and earned him a lot of respect each time he did it.

I like to think I can do it do if requested, but it takes me more effort and false starts; and of course I don't like to. I don't like to wait. If you want to write a balanced review, you have to be a historian; you can only write after the fact, which means you don't get a hand in the proceedings unless they have stalled (and in that case, your opinion is of course especially valued). I like to meddle in things, shape them as they are formed. And it makes no sense to me to strive for balance in these things. If a discussion is akin to assembling a table of "pro" and "con", and you see a "con" missing, it doesn't make sense to re-list the "pro" side; all you need to do is add the "con" point. Of course there's more to wiki work than that: as solutions are found and improved, "con" points are rubbed out, and new "pro" points added. If every post in this work in progress is held up to the rigid standards of balanced review, it would soon come to a halt. It works well only when you trust your co-workers to work towards the common goal.

This trust enables us to overlook the others weaknesses; to see the contributions they're making, and respect and welcome them. A case in point is our interaction over the TitleBars Template. There was a problem; you fixed it; I improved the fix and suggested a general improvement of the template was not feasible; you created such a feasible improvement; and I improved it. My edit summary of that last improvement read "unbreaking 50% of pages that use this". I'm not particularly proud of it, because I realize now it was formed partially with the thought in mind that I had to pre-emptively defend myself from improving on your work, and this thought should not have entered my mind, and even if it did, I should have recognized it for what it was and paid it no heed. Of course the other thought was that I can't resist writing "1 of 2" as "50% of all"; it's a weird sort of humor that delights in naming the loser of a game of chess as achieving 2nd place, and the winner coming in next to last. (Most people probably think I'm lame.) You decided to read it as me being surprised how you could miss that one of the two pages were broken when I had previously pointed them out, and decided to explain. I had not asked for such an explanation; I had thought about your local time, about how tired you might've been, and that it was an easy mistake to make that I had recognized only because I had taken another approach than you. Yes, I was surprised, but felt it was a small matter, not worth even bringing up. We were working together, and without your co-operation, I would have achieved less than we both did together, and that's what counts.

You could have read this summary as an insult; the exaggeration as an attempt to make you look bad in public; you didn't. You decided to overlook the imperfection of it. I've realized this because last night the conversation on irc turned to Auron, and I had stated that "I overlooked that Auron was a jerk, he overlooked that I was a carebear, but we both realized that we both knew a lot about wikis, and hence could work together". This is really how productive cooperation works: you overlook the imperfections, you see the positive contributions, and you build on them. Aside: If you have someone skilled to see small positive contributions and build on that in the face of large negatives (this last clause distinguishes this from simply being a carebear), it can be a powerful motivator to turn a problematic guest into a productive community member who finds and develops their strengths.

This requires trust. In a project where each contribution intends to improve on a previous one, each contribution can also be seen as intending to make the previous contributions look inferior. (Maybe they do, but that doesn't matter!) If you cannot trust your colleagues to not see your contributions that way, every contribution gets bogged down in defensive thoughts and words that themselves encourage this way of seeing things. The focus changes completely. That is why every well-working wiki has Assume Good Faith and No Personal Attacks as ideals in some shape or other. (While the latter policy is often misconstrued as a ban on insults, it really means that personal comments of any sort are to be kept out of "work" discussions.) The wiki community needs to enforce this ideal in its daily interactions, ideally on every level. Aside: this also explains why I hate wikis with a "don't be a dick" policy: it turns these assumptions on their head and promotes a work athmosphere that isn't focused right.

Somehow, between Dr Ishmael and myself, this trust got lost. I did not understand how it happened; I don't know if anybody else does; but when Dr Ishmael started writing publicly that I was out to make him look bad, his position in the wiki community made a lot of people believe him. In an attempt to invalidate these accusations, I tried to refrain from participating in improving his projects; I decided to disprove the idea that I was doing that for power by relinquishing important wiki powers I had; I tried to understand; yet for all I did, I have been unable to regain this trust reliably, and feel that I have made matters even worse.

It has been suggested that I should pen my contributions to higher standards (i.e. the "balanced review"). I will not accept my "working" contributions to be seen as reviews of other editors, because they are never intended as such, and I fear that if I started doing it, then people would expect that of me, and I could no longer work on the wiki. I would rather have the regulars learn that when I actually "review" people's actions, I do it on their talkpages (mostly), and I will do it directly and not indirectly. (I may rant on irc, though, to vent my annoyance. One of the uses of chat.)

Why don't I simply overlook all the personal digs coming my way? Because that doesn't make Dr Ishmael feel any better; because he leaves important discussions and common projects because of me, and that hurts the wiki; because I feel uncomfortable on a wiki where there's a personal attack lurking behind every edit for me.

What this big WoT boils down to is the simple statement that I'm not going to change my posting style. So, how do we resolve this? Dr Ishmael has offered me a way forward, and I'm confident we'll work it out. --◄mendel► 02:19, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

''The only thing to do with good advice is pass it on. It is never any use to oneself.'' -- Oscar Wilde
 * As a quick comment, as I saw this in rc in one last check before I went to bed, your statement "...I'm not going to change my posting style."

- mendel does not work. That's uncompromising, and you cannot resolve issues in the balanced manner you speak of above without both sides giving equally, that will create a power vacuum or struggle instead of a solution. I'll elaborate tomorrow, and maybe even write a similar WoT and at least aim to fully elaborate on many 'questionable' methods/phrasings/comments I've made over the course of this issue, but I really need to sleep now before I start babbling. ∵Scythe∵ 02:33, 17 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Scythe, it is clear you did not read that text. Please for the majority, hush and don't give inputs, unless you have useful and helpful information. I'm tired of seeing the same type information from you posted in a few different ways. I think we get the jist of these two from you that you'd like it all to stop. It cannot happen. To build a bridge, the two must work together. As seen by this post here and on mendel's page as well as on irc (when you were not on), it is clear that they are going to try. I'd rather you just be patient. It is up to them to work things as well as us all to work together. I don't think even you would like someone, butting in when you're trying to do something with others and being what I call obnoxious . Hope this helps. Kind regards - Ariyen 04:58, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Ariyen. Let me add that both Dr Ishmael and I can be contacted via chat and wikimail if anyone wants to discuss issues with us and avoid wikidrama. --◄mendel► 09:05, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I decided to respond on my own talk page since I don't feel the bulk of my reply is all that relevant to the primary topic here. Nwash [[Image:User-Nwash-Eyes.png|link=User talk:Nwash]] 12:36, 17 March 2011

I have stopped reading...
I have stopped reading what you have posted to/about Mendel. I don't know who started what or who suffered more at the words of the other. I care only to the extent that I care about you and Mendel as people.

And, of course, I am still reading what you post elsewhere; I find (save this issue) your contributions and presence on the wiki make it a better place.

Fix it, ignore it, quit the wiki, rage at the wiki, rage at me... it's up to you. I hope, however, that you will find a way to work things out; I am confident that the two of you can work well together. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 04:44, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

your status
The March 12 edition of catversushuman illustrates your status quite nicely. --◄mendel► 03:33, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Maps
Would you mind uploading the maps with the zones colored in that you used for Talk:Grandmaster_cartography_guide? Maybe someone can find uses for them. They could be linked on Maps, especially if the maps you were using as basis are also on there. --◄mendel► 23:59, 15 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I kinda forgot about that, didn't I? &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 01:36, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I've no idea whether you planned/promosed to upload that, but it'd be awesome if you did. --◄mendel► 01:44, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you! installs the gimp --◄mendel► 03:11, 16 March 2011 (UTC)


 * thanks! — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 03:45, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks (2)
for the bans. Sometimes forced de-escalation is just what a situation needs. ∵Scythe∵ 22:48, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

apologies
I was merely moving it based on the time of the post(s), not on a logical position, since I figured that's where it would have been placed under normal circumstances. ∵Scythe∵ 20:11, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Symbol of Wrath
Actually, it targets the player, and the player thusly receives DF healing. However, the bug was fixed, so it was incorrect anyways. --Vipermagi 21:23, 24 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh. Well, I guess it's all okay then.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 21:25, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Vanquish Schedule
on the schedule page, what's with the dates? Is that the future date the next time it's (most likely) scheduled to come back around, or ... ? And I saw todays date pop up on todays vanquish, is that right or? Just curious :) Mauirixxx 22:51, 26 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Yep, that's exactly how it works. &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 02:42, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Ok cool, thanks. So how did todays vanquish end up with todays date though? Or will that self correct eventually? Sorry just trying to understand the wiki code. Mahalo! Mauirixxx 04:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * It'll self-correct, as you put it. It shows the next time that quest will be available, not excluding today.  Check out the schedule pages for the other Zaishen quests to see how it works once we know the complete cycle.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 05:02, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Uniques
I'd like to fix more of the Uniques. I fixed a few like Kormab's Prism and I would like a list of all the uniques for each profession and possibly each req. Is there anything like that on here? I've notice a lot that didn't seem to be consistent with the unique guideline (or really even that close to what it has) and I just want to help fix it. Ariyen 23:47, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
 * See Category:Unique Items, it lists that categories that the uniques are in. --◄mendel► 00:01, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Guess that would do. Was just hoping for something by profession. (kinda looking for some for some of my characters.) Ariyen 00:32, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I was thinking more along the lines of Index of unique item lists --JonTheMon 01:39, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Perfect! Thank you! :-) Ariyen 04:15, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, if you're looking for something to go with your character rather than wiki maintenance, Category:Weapon galleries is also worth a shot, though these don't show attributes (yet?). --◄mendel► 07:39, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
 * You'll see what I have up my sleeve. ;-) Ariyen 08:03, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
 * And the results are!...flesh and bone. ∵Scythe∵ 20:52, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

TEF's suggestion
Could you please take a glance at TEF's suggestion on the official wiki and let us know if you have any ideas? Thanks. -- Kirbman 15:24, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

total page numbers (wiki move)
Special:Statistics says we have 123,037 pages here; w:c:guildwars:Special:Statistics lists 129,191 pages, and my current pages dump from February 22nd has 130,989 titles listed for gw@w, which is probably accurate given that I've deleted almost 2000 pages since then (and there were another 2000 deletions since the move before that). These numbers suggest to me that we "lost" about 10,000 pages. What would these missing pages be? Is it possible that they failed to get transferred? Redirects? The namespaces Video, Blog, User blog, and their talkspaces account for only around 400 pages. I don't have a clue, do you? --◄mendel► 01:36, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Talkpages with botted move notices? --◄mendel► 01:38, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * That's probably it, since we decided in the end to post that notice for every single user ever regardless of their contribution count. That was ~15,000 users.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 01:53, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Just counted them, 10,658 new talkpages total. o.O --◄mendel► 02:12, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * That's mostly why I wanted to limit it to users with at least 1 contribution - I think that would've cut it down to about 5,000 users, without making much difference as to how many followed the wiki to Curse. I wonder if there's any way to get a count of how many users have reclaimed their accounts here...  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 02:15, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * If there was a way to see how many times Special pages had been viewed you could get a rough estimate. ∵Scythe∵ 02:45, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Scythe, there is Special:Log/newusers, but for those users we're talking about, it almost doesn't pay to remember your password and reclaim the account - they don't have any contributions, so why bother? They might just make a new account. However, some of them might have email adresses set that they're still checking now and then, and thus might have received a talkpage notification. In effect, we were spamming GuildWiki users who had an email address and not turned talkpage notifications off. If some of these users found out we've moved and are reading us here now, we might never know, but it would still have been worth it. --◄mendel► 04:55, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * It probably follows that those 10,000 talkpage notices can be deleted now. --◄mendel► 04:58, 4 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Also, users had to access that page at least twice during the reclamation process, with many probably hitting it even more than that. I loaded it several times to see how the instructions and other messages looked in situ.  So no, the number of times that page was accessed would not give anywhere near a good estimate.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 12:46, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Ehh, I tried. ∵Scythe∵ 19:42, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Ish, I noticed in the Special:Log/newusers that some users would reclaim their accounts, then register for a new account as well. Ariyen 22:25, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Make a bot get rid of the Germans
This seems somewhat spammish on RC, as well as being a prime example of what bots can do more efficiently than people.

I'm thinking it's appropriate to get a bot to do the work, thoughts? A F K When Needed 19:41, 7 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Nope. I've already done as much as a bot can do, Cleo's taking care of the leftovers (and new stuff - when the ZVanquishes first started, I usually remembered to put the de: link in there, but then I started forgetting, and then other people started creating the articles).  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 19:45, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah right, I was unaware a bot had already been set lose on it. A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 16:27, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Looks like we need the doctor
As per Template talk:Mini skill bar. Nwash  13:39, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Monaco users: Replace...
...and I thought I was being so observant. :( A F K When Needed 14:46, 15 April 2011 (UTC)


 * For lack of a witty reply... :P &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 15:17, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Bluecat9 block
I see why you blocked User:Bluecat9, but I disagree with your stated reasoning. You saw a Vandal; I saw a probably young (or otherwise inexperienced) user trying to make sense of the wikicode & conventions and trying to fix what they thought was wrong. Just as I was typing a note to ask them why they kept editing Nick's article, you blocked them for 3 days.

Next time, could you consider a less drastic approach? For example, you could have typed a note (short or not...or asked someone else to type it) and slapped a nuisance-prevention time out on them (e.g. 1-2 hours, to ensure that they read the note and considered their response). In the case of an actual vandal (wiki-lawyered or not), we'd find out soon enough. In the case of a potential contributor, they would have a chance to learn the error of their ways and respond accordingly.

As it stands now, I would be surprised to see a positive reaction from that person if they decide to post again here. (As everyone knows) I have a healthy ego... and that block-first-ask-questions-later response would have driven me away. (In fact, there are sites to which I no longer contribute for that very reason; it's just not worth the energy.)

Thanks. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 00:59, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Ehh, tbh I saw a vandal too, when the uploaded a wallpaper as a traveler location, and continued to try to insert/remove it from the traveler page. That being said, I do hope they were only trying to figure out the code. ∵Scythe∵ 01:51, 27 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but I couldn't see anything in his edits to AGF about. First he uploaded a random photo of someone (which I have deleted, more than likely the person would object to it being posted here), then a GW2 wallpaper, to a filename that is supposed to be a location map in GW1.  Then he proceeded to systematically gut Nick's infobox not once, but twice.  In between that, he uploaded another GW2 wallpaper (without changing its original filename (and it's not even linked from the Ranger page...) ), which he never used anywhere in the 2 hours before I blocked him.
 * Granted, we've had a lot of random images uploaded here. Granted, we've had a lot of pages receive seemingly random edits like that.  Granted, lots of users have uploaded images without actually using them.
 * But taken altogether, I saw this user's actions as being harmful to the wiki, and judged that we would lose less by blocking him than by allowing him to continue his random behavior. &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 02:16, 27 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Everything you mention is consistent with someone who doesn't know how a wiki works. I've made all of the mistakes you listed with the only difference being that I used preview instead of submit and had time to notice that I was doing more harm than good.


 * As a vandal, this person wasn't very successful: for all of their edits, they only affected a single (admittedly, high-use) page. If their intent was harm, they would have been far more successful editing multiple pages 2-3x. Since they didn't do that, my conclusion is that they are very inexperienced at either vandalism or helpful contributions. It would have taken you all of 5 extra minutes to hope for the latter and done no particular extra harm had you been wrong.


 * In other words, I'm not asking you to assume good faith; I'm asking you to be slower in concluding bad faith. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 02:43, 27 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Would it be useful to at this point unblock him and hope he's still willing (if he's just a pro-newb) to come back? --JonTheMon 03:53, 27 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think so. I think it's generally better to leave admin actions alone...unless there's an egregious mistake. And, although I'm urging a different course in the future, I think Ish's action has/had a solid foundation. Whatever impact the block had isn't going to mitigated by shortening it. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 05:45, 27 April 2011 (UTC)


 * It is possible that I'm the only one with this opinion, but I don't think it really matter if something that looks like vandalism is intentional or not. The edit page has simple guidelines on editing (use sandbox, sign comments, use preview etc.) The guy broke an article twice when he should have been using the preview option. Whether or not it was intentional, he acted as a vandal would. &mdash; Viruzzz 13:47, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, most vandals are satisfied when they managed to break a page, and woudl not keep on editing it once it's satisfactorily broken. --◄mendel► 14:47, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with Viruzzz.
 * See also: I saw this user's actions as being harmful to the wiki &mdash;Dr Ishmael
 * We're not an educational resource. I don't believe there are many people out there who believe code will work differently on an article than on their user page. Either the person could have experimented before editing the article, or they could have used the talk page to illustrate a perceived problem and recommend a solution. Instead they went around breaking things. Well-intentioned or not is hard to determine; the damage caused is rather more black and white.
 * The user can still learn from their mistakes. Fixing the wiki is a more immediate concern than teaching random people, and if they're busy breaking something, protecting the wiki takes priority. A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 14:55, 27 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Our block settings allow users to edit their own talk pages by default. The fact that he hasn't responded to your message enforces my belief that he never had any intention of making a positive contribution to the wiki.
 * If he had actually uploaded a map image instead of random junk, I would have forgiven the page-breaking. &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 15:01, 27 April 2011 (UTC)


 * We're not educational? Since when? We try to help people all the time (jeeze, mebbe I should stop asking for wikicode help all the time).'Again, I have made all the mistakes that Bluecat made; I'm just lucky enough to have made more serious mistakes in real life, so I over-use the preview button and most of this community never sees what a dunderhead I can be.
 * The fact that he hasn't responded...is evidence that he hasn't responded. It could be that Ish was right and he was (is?) an intentional vandal. But it could be he's immature and now has been scared off. (As mentioned above, had this happened to me first time out, there's little chance I would have stuck around for more abuse.)
 * And there's a huge difference between unintentional mal-edits and intentional ones. It took me 5-10 minutes to figure out the cool stuff that Ish implemented this time and add the putrid cysts. And even then, I wasn't convinced I had done it right until I updated the cache and viewed the relevant pages in a new browser (and even then, Ish had to syntax-correct me).


 * Just to be clear: I agree that the user needed to be blocked to get his attention. I'm objecting to the duration of the block. And, to be even more clear, I don't think there's any point in changing what has been done. I ask instead that people rethink the approach for the next time. Which doesn't mean that anyone needs to agree with my point of view or suggested actions; it only means that I want the admins to reconsider. For example, I would be satisfied if, the next time something like this comes up, Ish (or whichever admin) takes an extra 60-90 seconds to consider whether to briefly-suspend (to stop the immediate issue) or go for a standard block. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 20:11, 27 April 2011 (UTC)


 * If it's about the duration, then sure, that's my bad. Early in my admin career I was admonished a few times for making a block too [long/short] (don't remember which now), and eventually I "learned" that the default block length should be 3 days.  I guess I need to un-"learn" that and start assessing the block length based on the specific situation.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 20:21, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * TEF wrote: "the user needed to be blocked to get his attention" -- I do not agree. A talk page message will get them the big orange box whenever they log in next; if they pause for an hour or more between editing sprees, then that'll get their attention more certainly than a 10-minute block (which they actually won't notice at all); and even they're currently editing, I personally would try the talkpage message first and do the block if they keep on making (more than one or two) edits.
 * But of course that only applies if you want to "educate": if you want to send the message "you harm the wiki, stay away", a 3-day-block is fine. --◄mendel► 20:33, 27 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Hmmn, I should have rephrased. Bluecat stopped editing at 2:30 or so (UTC). I posted a note at 3:33 and Ish blocked at 3:38. In theory, an admin could have waited to see the user's response; in practice, it's not reasonable to expect the admin to stick around for that. The pattern was: edit attempts, break, edit attempts, break. Since Ish issued the block during one of those breaks, I think a short block + a note would have been appropriate to both protect the wiki and educate the user. If Ish knew for a fact that another GWikian was around to watch over things, then, sure, a block of any duration could have been avoided.


 * Shorter story: sometimes it's not practical to just leave a note. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 20:59, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with TEF in this case- the orange box o' message may jump out to our trained wiki eyes, but it's not hard for a new user to miss or disregard. I would not particularly blame a fellow if he assumed it were simply an advert. That being said, I'm comfortable with the doctor's decision. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png|link=User:Felix Omni]] 15:19, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I 'tagged' them to be blocked myself before any action was taken, I treated the situation as "standard vandal who is not being banned could use a 'tag,'" whether this was ethically correct of me is up to debate, but I may have shaded Ish's actions one way or another based on a perceived consensus, if he was internally debating a block, that is. ∵Scythe∵ 19:16, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

isn't it copyvio?

 * re: early Login announcement

I rewrote the entire paragraph so that it wouldn't be reasonable to claim copyright. I used the same posts that GWW editors used to come up with their message, but rephrased them in (what I hoped) was more flavorful, useful, and concise language.

I'm actually expected relatively little new in the way of goodies, since usually ANet is better at hyping such things in advance. The lack of any pre-announcement announcement means the update is either so chock-full of goodness that they have no time to type a simple note...or there's going to be a new tonic or two and not much else. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 18:44, 28 April 2011 (UTC)


 * If I really thought it was an issue, I would've done more than make a comment in an edit summary. &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 19:17, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
 * No minipets this year, just etonics apparently. One is heavily hinted at being Captain Suicide himself.--Łô√ë [[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg]]îğá†ħŕášħ  19:28, 28 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes minipets. &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 19:38, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
 * "Characters celebrating their sixth birthday this year will find a surprise in their inventory, with the biggest surprise being what the gift is not: a minipet." The etonics are the birthday presents this year.  They spawn just like regular birthday presents but have the tonics inside of them instead.--Łô√ë [[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg]]îğá†ħŕášħ  19:42, 28 April 2011 (UTC)


 * /me shuts up now &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 19:52, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
 * : P--Łô√ë [[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg]]îğá†ħŕášħ 19:54, 28 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Did I miss something? who is captain suicide? :S --[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir 20:45, 28 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Probably a nickname for Rurik. &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 20:48, 28 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Ah, well, I figured it through after reading a bit. Didn't see he meant tonics with that comment. --[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir 20:51, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
 * What? No one else refers to him as that?  3:--Łô√ë [[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg]]îğá†ħŕášħ  00:02, 29 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Captain Suicide? never. Prince Harry? sure (as in Harry Kiri) — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 00:49, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

re: this
THE UNFORGIVEN ∵Scythe∵ 00:22, 5 May 2011 (UTC)


 * The Unforgiving, you mean. &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 00:50, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * stupid fingers, stop typing the wrong words D: ∵Scythe∵ 21:06, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Media Wiki
Shouldn't this be fixed? Ariyen 21:59, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * What's wrong with it? ∵Scythe∵ 00:15, 6 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Check the history, Scythe, I already fixed it. &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 00:33, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, speed speedy! :D ∵Scythe∵ 01:25, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't think anyhone has mentioned...
I don't think anyone has (recently) mentioned how awesome your item-of-the-week coding is. One guided update and all the relevant pages learn about the new data. Good stuff; thank you for setting it up. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 21:32, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for skill form updates
Hey thanks for all the EL Tonic skill form updates. Would you like me to add them to each EL 6 year page as a picture dupe from here on out? (KaceysChevalier2 14:07, 17 May 2011 (UTC))


 * Sure, go right ahead. Less work for me. :P  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 14:10, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Putting my foot down.
I didn't want to do this, but I apparently needed to do it. Let's have a serious discussion. I need you not to read this while angry because you will misinterpret, and even if you are calm while reading this it WILL make you angry, be it now or later. I haven't gotten involved with your squabbles as of recently because it allows me to be a neutral third party. With that said, I'm NOT going to extract my take. Feelings were hurt, actions were taken, confidences were lost, I'm not the analyzer though. I'm the REPAIRMAN. I've given you, Ariyen, Mendel, and Scythe long enough to fix your problems, and now I will intervene. You will not like this, in fact, NO one will like it, but I WILL solve this. You need to lighten up and pay attention. Starting after this post I want you to read EVERYTHING as a joke or in a joking manner preliminarily. I'm not trying to belittle you, but my hand has been forced. I respect you as a person and as an admin, which is why you specifically should never have let yourself get this involved. Admins are not more important then regular users, but you do have a higher code of conduct that you should adhere to. Regular users can get away with more shit then admins, because admins have more responsibility, and do have to actually be srs some times. Realize that you do not have to be srs all the time. Not everyone is against you. Not every issue will result in you losing status. You can be wrong. And if you can't, there will be consequences. The community has made it clear to me that they prefer the silence of the grave then the squabbles of a family because you can't kiss and make up. Contrary to popular belief, I am the bad guy, not you, not mendel, not Ariyen, maybe Scythe. I understand that you are under a significant amount of stress and you see the wiki as an escapist place where you CAN win your battles. Lastly: You aren't the entire problem, I'm just posting on your page second because you were one of the easier ones to write, because I know that you CAN be reasoned with.--Łô√ë îğá†ħŕášħ 13:27, 2 June 2011 (UTC)


 * What did I do to bring this on? I limited my involvement in the current situation to a mere 2 comments, 1 that was trying to be constructive on the policy discussion, and 1 (that maybe I could've omitted) to point out mendel's provocation of Scythe (which he calls a sense of humor).  Once I realized that the mendel/Scythe/Ariyen situation was about to spiral out of control YET AGAIN, I gave all 3 of them cool-down blocks and asked them politely to keep their drama off the wiki.
 * Apparently, you feel I did something wrong there. Remember, I'm not an analyzer or a repairman, I'm just an enforcer.  When I see a bad situation, I simply try to STOP it.  I don't really care about analyzing the underlying issues, nor do I care to try fixing them -- because past experience has shown that I am a complete failure at both.  If it please you, I will completely ignore this situation from now on.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 14:04, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
 * This was in reference to the last 3 or so months continuous. You have been working on it lately, but I had to confront all parties involved, which includes you.--Łô√ë [[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg]]îğá†ħŕášħ  14:11, 2 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Ah, I understand. Thanks for clarifying, and I will continue working on it.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 14:12, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Wow
Fast edit there! I was going to do that in my next edit. ^.^ you beat me to it. Ariyen 01:29, 3 June 2011 (UTC)


 * That's called "ninja'd" :P --[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir 09:27, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Style guide?
I thought that WAS the style, per Style_and_formatting/Bestiary - no? Sorry, was just trying to be a good wiki editor :P Mauirixxx 16:41, 7 June 2011 (UTC)


 * The style guide was wrong. Most bestiary pages do not use a comma between the NM level and the (HM) level, only between multiple NM levels or multiple HM levels.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 16:47, 7 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Ok, that's good to know, thanks Ish :) Mauirixxx 16:48, 7 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Looks like it stemmed from [ this edit], when Wolfie was notating how to format HM levels. He added the parentheses, but probably didn't realize he'd left the comma.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 16:53, 7 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't trust the style guides. In some cases, we have 100+ articles that follow one convention, another 100+ that follow another default, and a style guide that presents a third alternative. Now, while that's the exception rather than the rule... it simply takes to long to figure out which style represents the current community consensus. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 17:10, 7 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Are you volunteering to update them? Because obviously someone needs to.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 17:13, 7 June 2011 (UTC)


 * As long as I know the actual standard / guide to follow (I was pointed towards the guide via irc late last night) I'll be more then happy to fix whatever I come across, as I tend to have a LOT of free time at work (lone wolf I.T. guy ftw!). I just need to know what standard to follow, 'tis all. Any chance we can get an update to the style guide so the next well intentioned person doesn't make the same mistake I did? (I need to watch RC more carefully it seems) :) Mauirixxx 17:22, 7 June 2011 (UTC)


 * No, I would not volunteer to update them; the last two times I attempted to bring up style guides (Landmarks and Dungeon reward/reward chests)... the convos took ages and resulted in zero policy changes to the wiki.


 * OTOH, I would do the lion's share of the work if you are asking in your official capacity as an admin and giving me authority to do so without discussion (and trusting me to update rather than change the policies). — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 18:13, 7 June 2011 (UTC)


 * To be fair, landmarks and dungeon rewards didn't have existing style guides, you were starting from scratch. (Also, I think you pushed your personal style a bit too much on the dungeon rewards, which caused the discussion to stagnate, even though mendel and I were actually cooperating on the implementation side of it.  I was on break when the landmarks stuff happened, so I don't really know what happened there.)  These are existing style guides that just need to be updated to reflect current usage.  If you want an easy place to start, I know the item articles (mostly) and location articles (to a lesser extent) are fairly well standardized, since I tried to do that when I updated them with the new infoboxes.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 19:14, 7 June 2011 (UTC)


 * To be fair, you used your authority to push through the standardizations of location and item articles; you did not wait for consensus before proceeding. That's all I'm asking: your authority to do the same in other style areas. I'm interested in re-establishing standards; I'm not interested in yet another rewrite debate that will, I believe, lead to nothing getting done. (Asking for opinions about a master plan and acting on some of them is not the same as establishing a consensus. The fact that the changes were, on the whole, very beneficial for the wiki doesn't change how they were decided.) — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 20:58, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Go for it imo. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png|link=User:Felix Omni]] 23:55, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Apology
Before I stop lurking, I wanted to take time to apologize directly to you. I was rude and snarky above responding to your comment about style guides and discussions. (I haven't actually read your page since, so it's possible I got away with being a jerk without anyone noticing until this.) I am sorry for dumping my frustrations out on you; you didn't (and don't) deserve it. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 19:37, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Zaishen Vanquish info pages questions
While adding in todays daily vanquish, I came accoss 2 previous z-vanquish info pages where the template inserted wasn't "formatted" to the style that we currently use. Obviously is still works (everything was on 1 line, and the "type = Vanquish" line was missing. Obviously, it still worked as far as showing up on the main page, but I'm curious - what is the "type = Vanquish" for (I assume it's a SMW property?), and could you unleash a bot on the z-vanquish info pages and make sure that the "type" line is in there? Also, I found that in the summary, some pages link to the original article (eg; Ascalon Foothills ) directly, while others do instead. Is there a preferred way, or does it matter since either way net's the same result? I'm thinking the basepagename way would be better to reduce the chance of spelling errors in the next possible 36 vanquishes :P Finally, am I asking in the right place, or is there a better place on the wiki to get this type of question answered? (came here because this "project" was started by you) Mauirixxx 19:09, 10 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually, that "type" line is completely unnecessary.  is specifically for vanquishes only, and it automatically passes   to the main .  That's probably an artifact from before we had the specific ZVanquish template, and should be removed from all of them.
 * MediaWiki "variables" like  should never be used in article text.  Their purpose is so that template code can easily access the name of the article the template is being used on without requiring it to be passed as a parameter.  (See, where it defaults the item's name to   and the item's icon to  .)  They can actually be used for the same purpose within an article, but you should subst: them (as if they were templates) instead of using them directly, i.e.   produces #Dr ishmael#.
 * So yeah, remove the "type" lines and subst: the pagenames. I won't have time to do anything on this until tomorrow (AWB won't work through my corporation's firewall, and I'm delivering pizzas tonight).  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 19:27, 10 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Ok, understood removing the "type" line. Tried using the  line but I think I'm putting it in the wrong place - I shouldv'e said previously that I was working in the "Summary" part of the article, where I found the following:   - if I replace basepagename with the subst:pagename, instead of getting the link back to the original article, I get (example) The Breach/Zaishen Quest instead of The Breach. Was the subst line supposed to be in template where it currently says  ? Thanks for taking the time to explain all this, I just want to make sure I do things right :) Mauirixxx 19:48, 10 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I was just using  as an example.  You can do the same thing with    &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 19:50, 10 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Ok got it, looks fine in the summary part, however we lose the (albeit redundant) link to the original article - is this the desired effect? Mauirixxx 20:04, 10 June 2011 (UTC)


 * What do you mean? Just add "subst:" before "BASEPAGENAME" where it's currently used in the Summary, and the end result should be identical.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 20:07, 10 June 2011 (UTC)


 * It's not: The Breach/Zaishen Quest for an example, unless I borked it. Mauirixxx 20:10, 10 June 2011 (UTC)


 * You removed the square brackets. &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 20:12, 10 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I borked it. Good to know haha. Now I know how we got from  to just   in all the copy & paste action when creating a new z-vanquish info page. Thanks Ish, I'll get started on removing the "type" line. Mauirixxx 20:26, 10 June 2011 (UTC)


 * For more info, see MW:Help:Magic words. &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 20:34, 10 June 2011 (UTC)


 * There are about two ZVs where the type-line is needed: Those with the adjusted tier X rewards. Otherwise the "tier" will overwrite the manual typed rewards. Kaede (talk) 21:06, 10 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for that heads up Kaede - I haven't gotten to those 2 pages yet (witmans folly and ruptured heart), so we're all good. Mahalo, Mauirixxx 21:09, 10 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Well yeah, those 2 have to use directly, so they're special cases.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 21:21, 10 June 2011 (UTC)