Talk:Grandmaster cartography guide/Archive 1

Nice! Foo 03:09, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

What counts as 'mapped'
I don't see statements as to what constitutes an area being 'mapped'. How relevant is 'blip', where a chunck of ground is added to your map all at once? I know you don't have to step on each square foot of area, perhaps ground is mapped when its ever been in your aggro circle? Are blips pre defined tiles and the player has to step somewhere on the blip to get credit for it? Step on an adjacent blip? - Oye 10:23, 7 January 2007 (CST)
 * I have no idea... to me it looks like the GW map is divided by invisible barriers, and crossing one reveals a part. That's why you should scrape walls, so you uncover the part that's behind it by stepping on a border line. It varies from campaign to campaign and from location to location. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 13:29, 7 January 2007 (CST)

Xaquang Skyway / The Undercity.
There in the same part ow the map, only one is above the other. Do they count the Exploration % separately? --Poki#3 19:55, 1 July 2006 (CDT)


 * From what i recall, they are only counted once --Torins 12:33, 5 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I am sure that there is a part of skyway (NE river near south vizunah sealed exit) that you can only map via the undercity. I will have to check this tonight on a unmapped char. [[Image:AradaxSig.jpg]] 10:18, 2 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Having mapped the entire Skyway Section (Wall Hugging), and then mapping all north and north east section of The Undercity, this did indeed increase my % by at least 0.2%. This is from the south Vizunah gate where Guardsman Pei is located to the 4 clan fight just to the west.

Therefore the statement in Overview that "The undercity" does not contribute to mapping is false. 12:17, 4 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Isn't it counted as a new area without a map since the september 15 update? "Improved the Mission Map (the window accessed by using the "U" key) so that it works properly in Dragon's Throat, Scarred Earth, Sorrow's Furnace, The Courtyard, The Deep, The Dragon's Lair, The Hall of Heroes, The Undercity, The Underworld, and Urgoz's Warren, where previously it showed only black."
 * They have their own map, which resets to blank when you leave the area. They don't count for the title. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 14:20, 7 October 2006 (CDT)
 * The problem is that after the update that turned the Undercity map-less, it apparently isn't possible anymore to uncover the entire area that was possible when the undercity still counted towards the total. See the following two images:
 * [[image:Xaquang_Skyway_1.JPG]] [[Image:Xaquang_Skyway_2.JPG]]
 * This is an image of the southern part of Xaquang Skyway. Note the difference I outlined. The left image is what I have been able to map by scraping, the right image is what is shown on several different maps of Cantha that were linked in the Maps section of the wiki. I noticed however that that area is quite accessible from the Undercity. I'd like to know if I just missed something, or if it really isn't possible anymore to uncover that bit of map anymore. Quizer 08:20, 8 February 2007 (CST)
 * I know that some parts are not mappable any more compared to what the maps show. However, you should try it and if you don't get that part uncovered after awhile, move on to another area. The title is fairly lenient on how much you have to uncover. I was able to get Cantha 100% without even touching the Jade Quarry and doing a sloppy job at Fort Aspenwood. --Ryard 23:35, 8 February 2007 (CST)

The Math..
Here is how the math was computed for Cantha:



For Tyria, I just approximated it based on the ratio of size. --Karlos 19:15, 5 July 2006 (CDT)


 * IIRC it took 4 'bits' of uncovering to get 0.1% in Tyria and it took 3 'bits' in Cantha. And it didn't seem to matter how big these 'bits' were. But I only started counting that once I reached about 99% and might have missed something, so could someone please verify that? --SET 14:50, 3 August 2006 (CDT)


 * This 'bit' thing is a bit shady. Sometimes you don't get a 'bit', but the edge of the area sharpens a bit or something. I don't think it's that simple to determine what is needed to get 0.1%. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk)

Difference Maps to Find Unexplored Areas
1) Obtain a 100% map.

2) Take a screenshot of your zoomed-out map in Guild Wars. Be sure to press Shift+PrtScrn to remove all icons. One thing you'll have to assure is that your map is the same resolution as the 100% map you're comparing to.  If it's different, an easy way is to open up your game options and change the resolution to the same size as the 100% map and take your screen shot.

2) Open up Photoshop and load in both the 100% map and your current map (found in your Guild Wars\Screens folder).

3) Once both maps are loaded into Photoshop, press CTRL+A to select your entire image and CTRL+C to copy, move over to the window with the 100% map and press CTRL+V to paste. In the Layers box down at the bottom right, you should see two layers - the 100% map at the bottom and your map above that.

4) Now we'll compare the differences. In that same Layers box, you'll see a dropdown menu saying "Normal." Click on it, and select "Difference." Before doing this, make sure you have your layer with your map selected.

5) You should now have a difference map. Dark areas denotes places which are the same in both maps (places you've defogged), and bright areas shows the places which are different (places left to defog).

7) If you want to check on any area manually, just go to the dropdown menu again (in the Layers box) and select "Normal." In the same Layers box, you'll see an eye to the left of your layers. Clicking it will turn your layer invisible, and clicking it again will make your layer reappear. Just zoom in on the area you want to inspect, and click the eye over and over again in quick succession. This will toggle your map on and off and will allow you to see exactly where the difference is.

8) If you're still having problems making out the differences between the two maps, save and make a copy of the inversion. Now take the copy, open it in Photoshop, and invert the colors.  Now instead of looking for bright spots, you'll be looking for all the dark spots. --&mdash;  xis10al   15:32, 4 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Note: This won't work in Elona, as clouds (shades with varying contrast) pass over the map, making any map with equal contrast over all areas. It might work if you have an equal-contrast world map and you use the minimap, but I don't know if the contrasts stay the same between the minimap and world map.--Mafaraxas 03:36, 6 January 2007 (CST)
 * Clouds pass over EVERY continent. The minimap is cloudless, and most maps are therefore made from that, and mot the overall map. Oh, and contrast is really not a problem. We are looking for unexplored blips on the map, not brightness differences, and if that is too great, you can always change it in the options, or in most picture viewing software. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 04:09, 6 January 2007 (CST)
 * I tried this with the Canthan Map but the only things that showed up were random parts of the map that are unexplorable (mountains in the south etc.) and when I tried the inversion thing some random spots turned but thats about it. You need to get a map where the clouds match yours. &mdash; Matrim


 * Read the comment before yours, Matrim. It's the U map most people use for comparisons, not the continent (M) map, as the latter features the clouds. Loading up an image of an area you took from maximising the U map and a 100% image of an area, and quickly Ctrl-Tabbing between the two is how I compare, and although this is fiddlier than the above method it's what I'd recommend. RossMM 04:37, 16 January 2007 (CST)

I Do not think Tyria's Arenas (Ascalon and Shiverpeak) Count Anymore
I tested this theory using two 20 level characters, who were allowed into the staging area for both arenas, the Tyria cartographer counter never changed. However, I am pretty sure at one time it (staging areas) did count. Can anyone confirm this. If the arenas (or the staging areas for them) no longer counted towards the title then the article should be updated to reflect this.--DaveBaggins 01:20, Aug 17 2006 (CST)
 * Yes they do. Otherwise my Jessica would hav elost his 100% some time ago, because she had barely gotten the 100% with the arenas. Just recently I atually explored the rest of the areas needed for 100% without the arenas. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 05:36, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

I just finished a week of 'scrapping' through every mission and explorable area...doing the necro tricks...and, I'm still at only 97.6%...I have compared a 100% map to my efforts and no 'unexplored' areas jump out...except the 100% map had done old arenas and I have not...so...
 * you should do a photoshop/paintshop layer comparison, it works really well, I found a load of edges I thought I had done but not got every last cranny. --Lemming64 13:30, 24 October 2006 (CDT)

The Nooks and the Crannies
I don't think the trick for getting a Tyrian character into Vizunah (local) works anymore. I tried it the other day and the Canthan part of the group ported in, leaving me behind. --129.128.232.224 16:00, 31 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Never mind, the character needs to accompany the Canthan party for the entire quest, not just the last part.--129.128.232.224 22:05, 3 September 2006 (CDT)

I have added some tips that really do not fit the catagory's "...specific areas commonly missed by cartographers." theme, but I feel is useful (overall). For this reason, I suggest rewording the catagory's theme to something along the lines of "specific notes or tips" or simply create a new catgory for specific tips. --DaveBaggins 06:10, Aug 17 2006 (CST)
 * Create a new category. Something lie' General helpfull hints' or something. You decide. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 06:14, 17 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I find that section and the nooks section identical. In fact, most of the points are actually about how to make exploration easier/spawns less dangerous. Many people actually use a running build rather than fight anyways. I'm the noob who fights and kills everything. I find the notes on Kessex Peak, Nahpui and the Ascalon Settlement to be irrelevant. They are notes on how to make an area less hostile, not on how to explore. --Karlos 14:01, 24 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I've been fighting some areas too. Just for the fun. I haven't personally read through this article, but I'll do it sometime soon and remove anything irreleavant. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 14:19, 24 August 2006 (CDT)

I just wanted to note that I created a character in Tyria with the intent of seeing just what you have to explore to gain the grandmaster cartographer title. I reached 100% of the map explored about midway through the Hell's Precipice mission while there were still areas of the map that were unexplored. There may also be a sort of cap on what percentage you can reach at certain places; During the ring of Fire mission, my counter got to 97.5% and did not move, that despite the fact that I uncovered the vast majority of the island after it had reached 97.5. Similarly, the counter reached 95% sometime during the Thunderhead keep mission and did not go up when I explored the area outside of the fort (I explored every connecting zone along the way).

You do not need to do any of the necrotic traversal tips to reach the grandmaster title. I reached the title by only exploring the playable areas of the game as they were intended to be played. The only deviation from that was that I sprinted around the edges of the zone on the outside of the temple in the Dunes of Despair mission -but I did so after having cleared the mobs from the inside of the temple-. That might not have even been necessary, since I reached the title with a large portion of the final mission left to go.

I just want to let players know that you do not have to do any of those weird tricks to achieve the title. Further, you do not even have to enter any of the arenas along the way (which I found out by accident since I was too high a level to enter them once I thought about it). As long as you explore each zone thoroughly, including the mission areas, you can easily get the title playing through with an all henchmen team.

65.101.19.171 17:43, 20 August 2006 (CDT)


 * It might be that they really made it easier to get the title, because this wasn't the case earlier. Well, it's not bothering me because I wanted a real 100% map, not just a 100% title. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 20:11, 20 August 2006 (CDT)


 * By comparing two 100% maps to my own using difference maps I found that there were areas left after obtaining my 100%. This is due in part to that fact that when they removed the old arenas in Prophecies, they added in a "fudge factor" for those that never defogged the arenas.  If I recall correctly, the arenas accounted for 4% of exploration.  It is possible to have a 100% map and still have areas left to defog.--&mdash;  xis10al  [[Image:Xis10al_sig_icon.jpg]] 11:07, 21 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Does the age of your character play a role on the hunt? .171 created a new character for the title and got it so easily, while I - with a character I created during the 24h early access before the official launch of Prophecies - still have to lick every single wall to get the last 1% I'm missing. I have all the old arenas uncovered, used all the tricks and glitches and compared my map with lots of 100% maps area for area and still don't have my title, while others get the title "just to see" or with half of "The Falls" missing. Could it be that characters created after a specific date (Factions release?) have an advantage over older chars? Where is my map buffer that could get me to 101%? --zeeZ 21:47, 15 September 2006 (CDT)


 * having a character from the early access period too. got 100% its hard but there is still some error margin. but i didnt have to use any negro tricks. Telorian Shoran

"Alternatively, go as part Rt and bring the spirit Restoration. Move away from the hero at the timer, and before he dies cast the spirit. This will allow you to explore the area after it rezzes you without protecting him." If this is really possible (I will test it today or tomorrow) then the unnamed contributor has mentioned a great way to do this with a henchmen team and affording you all the time in the world RossMM 18:29, 3 September 2006 (CDT)


 * This is not true. I just tried it. Your party wipes when he dies, then when Resotration dies, nothing happens. --Karlos 19:00, 3 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I've tested it as well and the same happened to me. It's likely 'deaths' caused by mission failure don't count as normal deaths (think Vizunah final cutscene) and so Restoration does not work. And even if it did work this would be an exploit I'm sure the devs would fix ASAP RossMM 12:08, 4 September 2006 (CDT)

The Aurios Mines
This place relealed over 1% for me (and i hit my 95%!). I used a all henchie team, ran the challenge and just legged it around the edge, ignoring all the mobs. As long as your careful its an easy run, but one which should seriously be done by anyone wishing to gain this title. --Woonack 08:38, 21 August 2006 (CDT)
 * All the challenge missions (except Dragon's Throat) have that in common. I think Aurios has more explorable than other areas, but scrape all challenge missions if you want the title. --Thervold 10:54, 31 August 2006 (CDT)

Exclusive Areas in Outposts
Does anyone know if you MUST visit the exclusive areas in teh outposts? The reason i ask is i've now hit 97.4% and to have to get a guild to invite you, to each and every outpost so you can enter these Areas. In other words, has anyone managed 100% without having to use teleport tricks, and without having to change guild lots to access exclusive areas? --Woonack 16:46, 25 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Being a guest of the guild whom has ownership of the Outpost WILL NOT allow you access to the exclusive area, Being in a group with a member of the guild with ownership will NOT allow you access to teh exclusive area. Being in the Guild or an Allience with the who own the outpost is teh ONLY way of gaining access to the Exclusive areas

--Woonack 08:12, 26 August 2006 (CDT)

In a similar vein is it possible to achieve 100% without exploring areas such as the Shing Jea Arena combat area (ie. if you're >lvl10 or Tyrian)? I ask because I've found myself within the last 2% of the full title but other than a small area there and the restricted locations in outposts I am stumped for new places to visit. RossMM 20:02, 30 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I got 100% without going into the arena. --Karlos 18:59, 3 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Ah, back to scraping for me I guess :¬/ RossMM 12:10, 4 September 2006 (CDT)

Shing Jea Tutorial Grounds
Why was this "nook and cranny" deleted? The dragon fest was the only for Tyrian chars to map that area and the only way for Canthan chars who skipped the tutorial to go back. and map anyware but the teaching circle.
 * It was likely deleted as it is no longer possible to use the Dragon Festival games to explore that area, and so is not a useful tip. Personally I don't mind it being included as a footnote, but it's no longer helpful RossMM 15:40, 2 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Since the "Boardwalk" area was opened this past weekend and perhaps it will be opened again, this info should be permanently left in. Frostty1 03:00, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

Undercity
Exploring the undercity no longer seems to unfog the main ('M', as opposed to 'U') map. See Talk:The_Undercity. -- 127.0.0.1

Mapping with capping groups...
...is a pretty bad idea. Not only is mapping with pugs in general harder than with henchmen because they simply will not want to go into every nook and cranny on the map. But capping groups specifically are notorious for people who leave after they get their cap (whether maliciously or because all they had time for was their cap). Either way, your group will be left more vulnerable and less likely to want to take on unnecessary fights in fringe areas. That note does not constitute good advice. --Karlos 22:00, 16 October 2006 (CDT)

Glitch in Ederon Terrace (/A required!)
In short: This glitch uses recall on henchies when they are past the 'gate' to go into a town without zoning. Furthermore, using this in eredron allows to enter deep into a glitched area, for a total of 0,4-0,6%. The exact tutorial how to do it is here. P.S. This glitch is doable even without hench orders. You just need a bit of luck and stand as close to the entrance as possible =) (tip, take only ranged henchies). Anyway....my point....should we add this glitch to the guide ? -- Torins (talk) 12:42, 18 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Sure, place it with the note about Eredon Terrace to begin with. --Karlos 12:49, 18 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Wait, I can't get this to work on any henchman in there. Are you sure it still works? --Karlos 13:04, 18 October 2006 (CDT) nvm, got it to work. Nice. :) --Karlos 13:09, 18 October 2006 (CDT)


 * I added it. This was very cool. thank you. --Karlos 13:26, 18 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Don't thank me, thank the one who invented it ;) --[[Image:Animate_Flesh_Golem.jpg|25px]] Torins (talk) 13:44, 18 October 2006 (CDT)


 * He (or she) didn't share it with us... you did. :) --Karlos 13:47, 18 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Nice. Took a couple tries to get it to work, but it added 0.5%.  :)  Anyone know of any other outposts that this will work on?  Even if it just gets you into the 'gated' area that would be cool.  --Rainith 22:26, 18 October 2006 (CDT)


 * I have tried to get it to work on a couple of other outposts with no success. To begin with, the henchmen do not always stand way ahead of you as they do in Maishang Hills. --Karlos 14:22, 24 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Supposedly, it works at one of the entrances to Saint Anjeka's Shrine, too (worth another 0.1-0.2% exploration). However, I didn't get it to work there. --84-175 (talk) 14:38, 24 October 2006 (CDT)


 * St.Anjeka's exclusive area is a tiny little balcony, not even worth 0.1%. --Karlos 14:59, 24 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Will be much easier to do if it works with Heroes :) Azziliz 04:11, 25 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Yeah. Just a few more days :P Heros will be even for people that don't have Nightfall so anyone can try it ^^ Thanks for the tip man. Thanks to this I got 0.4%, and 0.1% at a missed part of Jade Quarry, and not I'm a Grandmaster :o. Thanks again ^^ &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|20px|My Talk Page :o]] 20:22, 25 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Just tried this, henchmen touched the zone portal and warped a few feet away. No chance to use Return to get past the portal whatsoever. --XT-8147 10:03, 27 October 2006 (CDT) (sig screwed up...  wtf)


 * Fixed? Damn, I was just going to try it out. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 10:16, 27 October 2006 (CDT)


 * It still works with the scared merchant, you just have to drag a group of monsters to the resurrect shrine and he will run in, he gets stuck for about 10 seconds first but then does run in and you can recall right to him. --Lemming64 16:22, 27 November 2006 (CST)
 * What, they fixed it? Shame :(


 * Me and a friend of mine had some fun doing this in the Crystal desert, we were in Skyward Reach, just outside of Augury Rock, we let them walk into Augury Rock, and recalled ourself in there, then we would walk to the other portal leading to Prophet's Path and for some reason, we didn't zone just outside of Augury Rock, but right infront of The Amnoon Oasis, still can't quite figure that out ^_^ --mer 14:26, 28 November 2006 (CST)

I had some fun with this also. It worked with the scared merchant. I recalled him he ran in and I got a good .5%. I loved the edge of the world thing that you get to see. Very cool.Obsidian Flame 21:08, 15 February 2007 (CST)

Elonian Unmappables
Added the Realm of Torment and Hidden City of Ahdashim to the list of areas that don't count towards the cartog title, anywhere else in Elona that isn't mappable? Warhawk 08:24, 16 November 2006 (CST)
 * Yup. 1st Chalenge mission (As oposed to the seccond which IS mapeable), and the cave you use to go to Vaabi (Forgot the map name). Oh, and Nightfallen Garden. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|20px|My Talk Page :o]] 16:50, 16 November 2006 (CST)
 * And the Sunspear Sanctuary, of course. --Bonjela 18:35, 1 December 2006 (CST)

Island of Shehkah
Someone added a note saying that it was only possible for Elonian characters to get Elona Grandmaster Cartographer because it wasn't possible to map the Island of Shehkah (the small area north of the first mission on Istan), however, this has been proven false many, many, many times, best evidenced in this thread at GWGuru http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1005177, where there are many screenshots of foreign characters with the title. The leeway given is reportedly more than enough to cover the Island, and in addition, it has also been reported (though I've only seen it once) that watching through the cinematic when you arrive at Istan from Tyria or Cantha uncovers at least part of it. Therefore, I'm removing it. The fact that it's not a fully mappable area could be added, but I'm not sure in what form (since it's supposedly partially mappable, not to mention unneccesary for the title). Warhawk 00:53, 20 November 2006 (CST)

Shiro's Banishing Conditions
The article says that "Shiro never banishes a human player as long as there is only one human player in his aggro range so doing the mission solo or with henchmen won't work." but I've been banished as the only human in my group. The rest were all henchmen, seeing that I did not have any heroes yet, and I was on my warrior.
 * I remember trying multiple times to be banished with just henchmen, and he never ever ever banished me. Even if it was just me and one hench, it would always be the hench to be banished. Maybe it changed somewhere, and if so, if someone could verify this, it would be good to know. --Thervold 11:37, 15 December 2006 (CST)

Same. And belive me...I tryed for a while. How long ago was it that you were banished with henchmen?--TheDrifter 19:51, 15 January 2007 (CST)

I'm not going to go and try it, but wouldn't it be possible to just... go there alone? He'd have to banish you. Mightywayne 08:42, 19 January 2007 (CST)


 * Last time I tried that he just refused to banish me, and so I got beaten to a pulp. My guess is that he won't banish a character if there's no-one else in the party near him, as then there'd be no-one left to kill the bound spirit that takes their place. RossMM 11:47, 19 January 2007 (CST)

Necrotic Traversal and Bridges
The nec-traversal trick to get yourself up to a bridge no longer seems to work. If you kill something under a bridge and nec-traversal to it you will be under the bridge rather than, as was previously the case, on the bridge itself. Some of the suggestions on this page (The Great Northern Wall, The Frost Gate, and Raisu Palace (Mission), to name three) need to be reworked or deleted once this has been verified by enough people. -- 127.0.0.0


 * I second this. Neither Necrotic Traversal (NT) NOR Rebirth (Heroes Rebirthing me) worked for me during 50+ attempts using the Etins / dying under the Bridge in Frost Gate. I am VERY sure I had the Rebirth / NT point spot on. My first attempt to do this was only in the last few days. My suspicion was raised even further when I WAS able to NT to one of Rurik's Guards very easily once I got the Golem's to kill him (Which was very hard, have the correct spawns (Where you are able to pull BOTH Golems onto the guards) for this always been rare?). Raxous 05:09, 5 January 2007 (CST)


 * Thirding this. It doesn't work anymore. About the golems, it's not easy getting a good spawn, and there's a higher chance of you finding a stray wolf in the canyon than there is of you getting it just right. I got down there the other day after finding a wolf that I could staff to death just after the catapult area where the bonus starts. mikkel 12:31, 5 January 2007 (CST)


 * I just recently did this before New Years and I was able to do it. Now with my second character post New Years, I cannot do the Nec travel. So this problem is confirmed was fixed. kmg0 9:29, 5 January 2007 (EST)


 * Well, you can use Olias' bone fiend to kill Rurik's guards in the frost gate. Just make him summon a minion and sacrifice so that the bone fiend becomes masterless and is able to kill Rurik's guards.
 * works wonders. i couldnt get both golems to aggro the guard. i had too many minnions, and they actually killed all the guards and rurik, but the mission did not end with failure. and he rez's later at the cutscene. Sephine 10:44, 15 February 2007 (CST)

The Cathan Newcomers table seems to be wrong...
...correct me if I'm wrong but if you add up the percentage explored it comes out to 99.1% which can't be correct.
 * The Canthan table (excluding the 2 last entries) shows how much you will have if you explore the said area and all the previews ones. The whole idea of having a % table is totally wrong, because people experience wary. Someone can scrape a few parts more, someone a few parts less. It's i-m-p-o-s-i-b-l-e for it to be as accurate as the person who put that up wanted it to be. Good idea, but impossible :( I would like to encourage a discussion on whenever to keep or to delete those. I say delete... &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 15:19, 17 January 2007 (CST)
 * I second the vote for thrashing. It's not as accurate as I think something on the wiki page should be, but kudos should be given to the author for trying. FlameoutAlchemist 16:05, 20 January 2007 (CST)
 * 10 days have passed, and no objection, so I'm removing that table. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 07:35, 27 January 2007 (CST)