Talk:Ghost

I split the article into Undead Souls and Nature Spirits. Both of them are referred to as "Spirits" in the game, and both have the same translucent greenish astral body. I'm pretty sure this is the same "species" we're talking about here, although Nature Spirits are not undead. --Tetris L 22:11, 26 October 2005 (EST)


 * a) This article is about Ghost, not spirit. If you want to make a disambiguation page called Spirit and in it state that there are two kinds of unrelated spirits in the game, Ghost and Nature Ritual spirits, go ahead.
 * b) Ghosts have nothing to do with Nature Rituals. Spirit of Nature's Renewal can't move, can't talk, affects enemies and allies and flat out looks like a totem. Wait, it IS a totem. :) One species is sentient while the other is a collection of pieces of wood and stone.
 * c) Being green and translucent is not exactly a species defining aspect here, otherwise, the Eternals, the Ghosts, the Nature Rituals, the Druids, the Bansihed Dream Riders, the Smite Crawlers would all be one happy species called soup. :)
 * --Karlos 00:08, 27 October 2005 (EST)


 * Agreed -- please keep Ghosts separated from Nature Spirits.
 * Also: Mmm. Soup.  --209.113.159.61 00:47, 27 October 2005 (EST)


 * a) "Ghost" and "Spirit" are clearly equivalent terms. If not, then why are so many ghosts called "Spirit"? For example: Restless Spirit, Restless Spirit (Pre-Searing), Spirit of the Fallen, Tortured Spirit... Also many descriptions for locations and quests, especially in the Underworld, use "Spirit" as an equivalent to "Ghost".
 * b) Nature Spirits are not a collection of pieces of wood and stone. They are noncorporeal, astral beings that can be summoned. And they have the typical translucent look of a ghost. Looks like a ghost. Smells like a ghost. Tastes like a ghost. If you ask me, they ARE ghosts. Also, Nature Rituals don't move, but Druids do. And Nature Ritual Spirits look exactly like a Druid, except for the smaller size. They are clearly related.
 * c) Indeed, I think that various other translucent creatures could be considered "ghosts" too. Note that sentence that I added saying that Ghosts are "closely related to other noncorporeal Undead beings like Nightmares, Smoke Phantoms, Wraiths, etc". --Tetris L 01:00, 27 October 2005 (EST)


 * a) Yes, ghosts are called spirits and nature rituals are called spirits, see what I did in Spirit.
 * b) They are totems, the game calls them totems, they are as lifeless as a piece of rock.
 * c) Well then you're going to have to convince people with your theory before you assume it mainstream. I do not believe Smite Crawlers are Ghosts, I do not believe Banished Dream Riders are ghosts and I certainly do not belive Druids are ghosts. Green and Translucent means that they are not matterial beings. Just like in typical D&D lore Angels are not Ghosts, I don't see that everything noncorporeal has to be a ghost. Where is the basis for this argument other than your assumption? --Karlos 01:14, 27 October 2005 (EST)

a) You said "This is an article about Ghosts, not Spirits". But you agree that Ghosts are also called Spirits. Make sense, please.

b) Did you have a close look at a Nature Ritual Spirit lately?? They look exactly like a Druid, except much smaller. And you're trying to tell me that they have nothing to do with Druids? Why does it necessarily means Nature Ritual Spirits are dead, just because they don't move or talk? It is YOU who is making assumptions here. According to the Wikipedia definition a totem can also be a "supernatural being". "Being" doesn't sound like a dead object to me.

c) The general definition of a "ghost" is very fuzzy, and differs depending on culture. The term blends with many other terms for supernatural beings like daemons, spirits, spectres, etc. One thing that all ghosts have in common is that they live in a paralel dimension (astral, aether, limbo, ... whatever you may call it) to the real world, which is why they have that translucent look and why they are able to appear/disappear out of nowhere. And all the creatures that I listed fit into this desciption.

So far about common language and culture. Now lets have a look at the game. Usually a good way to tell what species a creature belongs to is to look at what Collector Items it drops: If it drops a "Tusk" of some kind, chances are it's a Troll. If it drops an "Eye" of some kind, chances are it's a Rider. If it drops a "Jaw" of some kind, chances are it's a Behemoth. And so on ... you get the idea. Now, my theory is that Ghosts (according to the in-game species definition) drop "Remains" (sometimes called "Remnants" or "Residues"). Go and have a look what creatures drop "Remains". --Tetris L 02:47, 27 October 2005 (EST)


 * I've always thought that all the semi-translucent creatures in the game should be under category:ghosts, but I got shot down with my initial Druid, entry. Thinking about it, I think Category:Ghosts should be changed to Spirits and all these guys go in there.  --Rainith 03:05, 27 October 2005 (EST)


 * a) I said this is the article about ghost, not spirit, if you need to write about spirits, there is an article for spirit. If you need to point out that spirits can be ghosts or nature rituals or vegetables, then say that in spirits, not ghosts. The fact that spirits are also known as ghosts can be mentioned in ghost (which I think it is), but the ARTICLE for spirit, should be written in spirit.
 * b) Did you look at a Bladed Aatxe lately. He looks like the spitting image of a Minotaur, want to theorize about that too? A Smite Crawler looks like a scarb, according to your argument here, he is a scarab, but according to the translucency argument he is a ghost. Is he the ghost of a dead scarab?
 * c) The remains argument is a good one. Things that drop similar remains are similar creatures. So, I believe the Phantom and the Mindblade Spectre are the same species becuase they both drop Phantom Residue, I believe the Bladed Aatxe and the Coldfire Night are the same species because they both drom Demonic Remains. I also believe that the very fact that one is called "Demonic" and the other is called "Phantom" necessitates that they are NOT the same speices. Obviously one is a Demon and the other is a "Phantom". You're seriously going to categorize the Bladed Aatze as a ghost??!
 * If you're saying all "meta-physical" creatures should be categorized as "ghosts" then I believe you are wrong. A ghost is not a demon in any fantasy or cultural setting I know of. In my culture we don't even have ghosts, yet we have a very rich culture about demons (Jinn).
 * --Karlos 03:29, 27 October 2005 (EST)


 * In regards to point c there Karlos, please explain your decision on Crystal Spider as you seem to have done the opposite and decided their species based on what they drop not their name. --Rainith 03:53, 27 October 2005 (EST)


 * What do you mean? I said they drop Encrusted Lodestones, like the Crystal Guardians and they seem to be made of Crystal (so looks and drops match) so I said they were golems. If Bladed Aatxe start dropping Phantom Residue I will consider them to be Phantoms. As long as they are dropping Demonic Remains they are DEMONS. I am consistent. I don't understand your critique. --Karlos 04:30, 27 October 2005 (EST)


 * Sorry, I didn't read it close enough. I thought you said that Phantom and Bladed Aatxe dropped the same thing but were different species.  I wasn't trying to be an @$$, I was just curious on your reasoning (which as it turns out was 100% sound, my reading skills weren't though).  --Rainith 04:50, 27 October 2005 (EST)


 * I will reply to a), b) c) again more in detail tomorrow. I'm too tired now and will go and play the game now instead. But just one thing: I checked in game, and Nature Ritual Spirits DO move. Look closely. They are far from "lifeless as a piece of rock". --Tetris L 05:36, 27 October 2005 (EST)


 * Ok, so they blink everynow and then! They got bad actors to do this part! :) I am not as opposed to the Druid-Nature Ritual connection as I am to the connection between those two and the Ghosts. --Karlos 07:16, 27 October 2005 (EST)


 * Please see Chained Soul for ultimate proof that being "green" and "translucent" is not the defining criterion of a ghost. These are SOULS and there is nothing green or translucent about them. The bottom line is that ANet shared graphical models across many creatures and it is up to us to weed out what each group is based on something deeper than green and transparent or drops "remains." --Karlos 09:17, 27 October 2005 (EST)

Ghost as simply spirits of undead
Since Spirit already covers the disambiguation, I think we can safely remove the section on Nature Spirits, and deal exclusively on the undead ones in this article. At least, Category:Ghosts doesn't seem to contain any natural spirits / druids, and I'd like the two to stay consistent. Count down to rewrite the article, 7 days. -PanSola 02:49, 5 January 2006 (UTC)