GuildWiki talk:Standardizing skill templates

Take versus suffers
I'd vote for "takes" instead of "suffers." "Suffer" is used as a verb with damage as the object in only ten skills (and two of those don't ignore armor). "Takes" is used in 68 skills by my count (admittedly, six are armor respecting skills), but at least it's commonly used already. --68.142.14.92 01:05, 7 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Ditto. - 01:08, 7 June 2006 (CDT)
 * WP:BOLD &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 01:11, 7 June 2006 (CDT)
 * We are not Wikipedia - Any policies we share, but lack an actual policy article for, should be ported over here; it is bad form to link a Wikipedia policy article in support of any action, even if that policy is the same as one traditionally held by the GuildWiki. Besides, I'm lazy d-: - 01:31, 7 June 2006 (CDT)

Purpose
Just curious; is the goal of this article to create new wording to insert into GW skill articles? If so, will we over-write the in-game descriptions, or insert this version next to the current in-game descriptions? Or is this one of the "Changes that ArenaNet should make" type articles? --24.19.168.170 01:20, 7 June 2006 (CDT)
 * The latter. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 01:27, 7 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I would recommand this to be placed side-by-side with the in-game description in the skill article. Thus, we will have a "In-game Description" that copies in-game word by word, and a "GuildWiki Description" that is more standardized.  This might also replace the errata section. - 01:28, 7 June 2006 (CDT)


 * That step can be taken when this project matures a lot more. It's still way too early, and we're still brainstorming about the standard glossary. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 01:30, 7 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I too would like to see a standardized description within the skill articles - there's room for that to be added to the Skill Box Template. But let's first find some general understanding and wording for the descriptions that is
 * easy to understand and
 * able to represent the maths behind the scenes
 * --Chi Li [[Image:Chi_Li.gif|Chi Li]] 08:48, 7 June 2006 (CDT)

"start using"
Is there anything that triggers off "start using"? - 01:42, 7 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I was envisioning it for cases like using a spell on someone protected with Spell Breaker. I also think it is important to mention that the end of the activation is the trigger for pretty much everything. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 01:48, 7 June 2006 (CDT)


 * You might want to reword it then, since if you are putting a long-cast spell on me, and I start fast-casting Spell Breaker after you have started casting your spell, your spell won't fail until I finish casting my Spell Breaker, so technically the effect didn't happen when you start casting your spell. I think it's more important to keyword the verb fail (not the same as the attack-related failures). - 01:53, 7 June 2006 (CDT)
 * BTW, I'm assuming Guilt and Shame treats "fail" the same way Spell Breaker does. If not, there's another inconsistency for us to iron out. - 01:57, 7 June 2006 (CDT)

Condition causing skills
Rotting flesh, sever artery etc all try to describe the conditon they cause &mdash; Skuld  02:31, 7 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I recommend removing such descriptions, as we, at least, have an article on them. A player in GW, optimally, should be able to hover over the condition when affected by it and get a desc out of it. On the flip side, if a player is rarely affected by such things, there is no source for their information on them ingame. What it really needs is some sort of glossary for conditions. :P --Tinarto [[Image:Tinarto-gold-Monk-icon-small.png]] 17:21, 7 June 2006 (CDT)

Some consistency issues
These aren't really important issues besides that they should be consistent but the manner in which they should be isn't clear: Maybe more after I think about it. --68.142.14.92 02:31, 7 June 2006 (CDT)
 * "Damage sentences" vary a lot in sentence subject and verb conjugation. Sometimes "you strike for," sometimes " strikes for," and sometimes the enemy "is struck" (and probably other forms, too).  It even varies within the same skill sometimes.  I'm not sure how far standardization should be taken, such as making attack skills and spells all fall in line or having potentially different schemes for different types.
 * Self reference. Some skills say things like "this attack" and some use the skill name.  Sometimes there's more than one self-reference so using either form twice might seem like jilted English.
 * Flavor text. Distracting blow swipes, phoenix raises a fiery phoenix that flies out and explodes, lightning orb creates a lightning orb, broad head arrow shoots out a broad head arrow.  The latter two are clearly less "flavorful" but not necessary.  In some cases this seems to indicate projectile attacks (as in dodgable attacks and not automatic hits).  I'd weakly favor all flavor text getting removed.


 * For self-reference, I recommend self-reference every time. Protective Bond, for example -- instead of "While you maintain this Enchantment", do "While Protective Bond is maintained", as there is no point in mentioning that it is an enchantment when the first two words in GW are "Enchantment Spell". In fact, I recommend removing second-person altogether if at all possible, unless it causes undue awkwardness. This would also solve part of your "damage sentences" bullet. I wonder if I should "be bold" when we're trying to standardize. --Tinarto [[Image:Tinarto-gold-Monk-icon-small.png]] 17:18, 7 June 2006 (CDT)

After some pondering, here are some of my preferred answers to the issues I came up with and some more new issues: Once again, more as it occurs to me. Speak up or one day when I think I've got a consistent system that covers most things, I'm going to push all these changes into the article. --68.142.14.91 21:52, 8 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Flavor. Kill it all.  The effort is to standardize.
 * I never liked how enchantments were phrased. They mix the "enchantment" and the "spell" parts together.  For example, if you hover over the healing breeze status icon, you get the exact text of the skill description.  I think you should get "For 10s, you gain X health regeneration."  Showing the target of the enchantment the "target ally" part is just weird.  OoP says "whenever a party member hits a foe," but it really means that when YOU (the enchanted) hits and that when the enchanter casts it, the whole party is enchanted.  Unfortunately, I have no clue how to concisely and unambiguously phrase them.  Hexes have a similar problem.  I suppose weapon spells, too.  Does anyone else even see this as a problem?
 * Attack skills deal bonus damage that ignores armor. The base attack itself respects armor.  So, attack skills should use "take" and not "strike."
 * Self reference should be in the form of "this skill/attack/whatever." It is likely the shortest choice for almost everything.
 * I don't think it's possible to remove all second person references, but I may be wrong. Searching for "you" in the skill descriptions shows second person is used quite often and would be a pain to rephrase around.  I don't think it's worth the effort and likely awkward phrasings to remove all second person references.
 * So, this leads us to phrase attacks as something like "deal an additional X damage if this attack hits." Alternatively, "if this attack hits, you deal an additional X damage."
 * Spells should say "Strike target foe for X earth damage." The change is that most spells currently say "target foe is struck for."  Alternatively, "you strike target foe for X damage."
 * We need a phrasing for projectile spells. "Send out a projectile that strikes for" is wordy, but I have no good suggestion right now.  Perhaps "strike with a projectile for."
 * Go register yourself an account so we know it's the same person, as opposed to a random anon that wanders past who never made any input on the subject before d-: - 00:14, 9 June 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm pretty sure if you read any of 68.142.14.91's posts, I don't think you would ever get that impression :). Anyway, there is also alot of inconsistancy when referring to an ally.  The definition of ally says basically any green named creature, yet for example, Flesh of My Flesh can only target party members (yet says allies).  And Healing Breeze says it can target allies but doesn't work on spirits.  So, I imagine that we should keep the definition the same and change wordings to party members/non-spirit allies, respecively? --Chrono traveller 00:25, 9 June 2006 (CDT)
 * I suppose I slip under the radar often since I'm anonymous, but I've been making edits for several months. I do not desire an account.  But anyway, what Crono mentions are problems that definitely need to be corrected.  FoMF should say party member, as said, though the spirit issue is how spirits are.  Since a little before Factions, spirits have been untargetable by a lot of spells but most spells haven't changed to say "non-spirit ally" instead of just "ally."  Flat out mistakes are easy to take care of and almost all of them are probably noted on the skill pages already.  --68.142.14.91 01:17, 9 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Consider it as a favor to other people, especially us admins. It will help the rest of us if you can register an account so we can keep track of who-is-who-and-who-did-what-when. - 01:27, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

ANet
Stabber wrote "there is no guarantee" ANet will use this information. Actually, there is no way ANet can use this information because of the wiki's license. --68.142.14.92 17:19, 7 June 2006 (CDT)


 * This can and should be rectified immediately. Suggest adding a banner at the top that releases material in this article into the public domain, with contributors implicitly agreeing on contribution. 85.25.141.60 17:32, 7 June 2006 (CDT)


 * If we want to do this, we need agreement from every editor that touched the article (or, excise parts from anyone who doesn't consent). --68.142.14.91 18:27, 7 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I agree with the anon above you. This should be done. I of course give consent. Will add this to the article now. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 18:42, 7 June 2006 (CDT)

License
Should it specify "you, the user" in some format that clarifies that user is the one that uses the data, not the person who logs in? I don't know anything about these things, but at first I thought it was talking to me, the contributor. --Tinarto 19:11, 7 June 2006 (CDT)


 * IANAL, but these sorts of things are usually intended to address the reader. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 19:13, 7 June 2006 (CDT)

My Revision
I've gone through, up to Determined Shot Draw Conditions Fire Attunement (so far), and have made many changes I believe make skills less ambiguous and more consistant. Some changes I want to note, and my reasons: More to come. Aubray1741 16:59, 16 October 2006 (CDT)
 * General: Spirit skills that start with "Create a [...] who dies after [...]" were changed to "Create a [...] Spirit. [Spirit properties/effect]. This spirit dies after [...]." This is better spaced, and easier to read.
 * General: I tried to change strange, one time wording, like "cured of negative condtions" or other wording used on a single skill to more common wording, such as "loses" or "remove".
 * General: For attack skills, I've tried to start them with "This attack strikes" instead of "SKILL NAME strikes for" to be consistant.
 * Deathly Swarm: This skill is weird on its own. See its article. I tried to make it more clear.
 * Deep Freeze: The original skill started with "You create a Deep Freeze [...]." I changed this to be more like an instant effect, since it is, and you don't "create" an effect, like Meteor Shower or Churning Earth. You simply hex everything in the area, and do damage.
 * Same with Dragon Stomp.