GuildWiki talk:Community portal/Archive 17

Archived but potentially still open issues

 * Overuse of Spoiler tags
 * Taking "idocy" skills out of PvP
 * Is anyone else capable of running a bot?
 * Request for abbreviations

Build stub clean up

 * The clean up is nearly over now. As you might have noticed, quite a lot of builds were moved to Category:Tested builds indicating they were successfully vouched for. Category:Untested builds was created to replace the old Category:Build stubs. Build stubs is only for real stubs now (in the wiki sence) no longer for unvouched builds. Builds should always be in either tested builds or untested builds AND at the same time in Category:PvE Builds, Category:PvP Builds or Category:Farming Builds.


 * A special note on builds up for deletion: There are a few builds in Category:Candidates for deletion simply because noone wanted to vouch for them. If you feel any of these builds deserve not being deleted, please go to Category:Candidates for deletion and put your vote down on the talk page now.


 * People generally opposed to deleting builds might want to read about Bishops proposal.


 * Admins, please do not delete builds before the 15th please. --Xeeron 07:32, 13 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Update:
 * Thanks to Bishop, there is now a new "build portal" site at Build.

Vehemntly against new skill box IMPLEMENTATION

 * Archived, see two sections down on restructured discussion

Title Boxes
Anyone want to try to come up with some title boxes (similar to the babel boxes and the newer PvX and Faction boxes)? I am having a major case of... I don't know ennui, apathy, "the blahs" right now and just can't get up the initative to do this. I was thinking something that would have different levels for the different title levels, but an overall color theme for each title track. --Rainith 23:16, 13 May 2006 (CDT)

A New Section for the Bigger Issue - Split/Subst/Redundant
This is an issue common to Collector lists, quest lists, weaponsmith lists, skill lists, and many others. Though how we arrived at the issue differed for some of the above.

Basically we have several method of dealing with data that are repeated across multiple articles:


 * 1) . Split - Split it off and store it somewhere else. Let other articles that need it use inclusion.  This is the currently most widely adapted technique on GuildWiki.
 * 2) . Redundant - Have multiple copies of the same data whereever they are needed. This is the second most widely adapted technique on GuildWiki.
 * 3) . Subst - Have one article as master copy. Use a bot to periodically synchronize the other articles that need the data.   This is a new idea being introduced.

Note these are just rough ideas, there are/maybe different variations of ideas that differ in the details, but still fall into one of the three main types above.

My first question for the community is, should we handle each subject (quest, collector, skills etc) uniformally, or do it case by case? -PanSola 01:47, 14 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Case by case please. Subst: is totally not needed if there is only one or even up to a dozen transclusions. For skill reference pages, the sheer size makes it all different. Not sure about the quest pages, but my brief study of them shows that they have the same (and other) issues with transclusion as the skill reference pages. Hank 01:50, 14 May 2006 (CDT)

The case of server load not being a concern
For things such has collector lists, collectable drop articles, weaponsmith lists etc.

Summary
Feel free to edit it for NPOV, or add any advantages/disadvantages that were left out.

Discussion
It can still very well be the case that we wish to treat different types of articles differently. In general I am in favor of the Split approach over Redundant and Include. The Split approach is what is currently done for collector info etc. I believe the disadvantage of the Split approach is no worse than the Include approach. -PanSola 23:43, 15 May 2006 (CDT)

The Karlosian Factor: Just thought I would list the major issue I have which is mentioned implicitly up there. I want each one of you to go to this article Shove and click on the "edit" link at the top of the page (the usual way to edit articles).

Now observe the number of warnings and flags and flashing red lights. Don't edit here, don't remove this, don't type past this line. This is very, very, very un-wiki like. If I was a new user who has a simple piece of information, I see really one of three things that I will do:
 * 1) I will feel brave, edit the article somewhere to put the info that I have. My guess is that 50% of the time, that info will be placed in a way that messes up things.
 * 2) I feel intimidates by all the flashing lights, but I am a user that is familiar with wikis, so I will go to the talk page, and place a note with the info that I know and let someone who understands all the gizmos figure out how to add it.
 * 3) I will leave the article alone and reconsider adding whatver info I had.

Off the bat, even if choice #3 has a 5% chance of happening, that is WRONG. We are not supposed to enhance the presentation in a way that makes articles uneditableby average users. If Choice #2 happens, then that is work for someone else. I don't know what are the probability of Choice #2, but given my perception of the number of users vs the number sof ones comfortable with wikis, I'd say no more than 10%. Choice 1 and Choice 3 are really what we are looking at, and I don't like either.

''Note: I also removed the "protect other articles from editing" sentence above as I never proposed that and I would actually be against that. Again: You CANNOT prevent people from editing for the sake of tidiness or making the admins/regular contribuotr's life easier. To protect a page just because people don't know how to edit it is BAD.''

--Karlos 01:06, 16 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Um, maybe I'm missing something, but on that specific article I see only 1 line saying "Do not add anything below this line" not a "...number of warnings..." (I'm leaving out the flashing lights, etc...). --Rainith 01:14, 16 May 2006 (CDT)
 * In the middle of the article there is:, and then at the bottom of the article there is:

-PanSola 01:17, 16 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Here:

{{skill box qr
 * --Karlos 01:21, 16 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Ah, I missed those, they need more flashing lights, maybe a few bells and whistles too. Just a note, I am personally very much against doing skills the way that Shove is done.  --Rainith 01:27, 16 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I agree a lot with the above Karlosian factor. In fact, I find Shove a bigger issue than Echo.  Thus I favor the Split approach used by Echo rather than the Include approach used by Shove. -PanSola 01:22, 16 May 2006 (CDT)


 * There's a German proverb for situations like this: "We've got the choice between the Plague and Cholera.", or "We've got the choice between being hung and being shot.". Whatever way we decide to go, it has some serious disadvantages. I see Karlos concerns about scaring away unexperienced wiki users with complicated code. He definetly has a strong point. But at the end of the day I think maintaining redundant information scattered all over the wiki is worse. The skill overview pages are a good example. They are some of the most popular pages on GuildWiki, but they are in pretty bad shape, because they are a b*tch to maintain.
 * Of the three suggested methods I favor Split with Inclusion as the close second. In both cases, it is a must that the included article ("module") contains a convenient direct edit link, so that wiki newbies don't have to type anything in the address or search bar. Recently I paid more attention to this aspect myself, and when I created all the modules used for example in Getting started (Factions), I added a direct edit link to all of them. --Tetris L [[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L block]] 02:15, 16 May 2006 (CDT)
 * If I recall correctly from previous statements, Rainith also favors Split over Include. I know Karlos vehemntly opposes Split, but not sure how he feel when Split is being weighted against Include and/or Redundant. -PanSola 02:23, 16 May 2006 (CDT)

Ok, you tech guys (and girls) are really not making this easy. Above I see 3 options (split, redundant, subst). Then there is a table with 3 options but 1 is been renamed (split, redundant, include). To make things worse, I dont see the difference between split and include explained anywhere (both seem to be using includes, but in a different way? and what happened to subst? Is that equal to include?) How does split use includes without the noinclude tag?

But my general opinion is does that all these questions need not even matter for me. The articles in guildwiki can be divided into technical "service" articles (skill lists, collectors lists, etc) on the one hand and content driven articles (running guides, mission walkthroughs, etc) on the other hand. The first should be made to maximise easy readablility, the second to maximise easy editability. The collectors descriptions are extremely likely to be uploaded by a long standing experienced wiki member that will know how to deal with the technicalities. And after that, it is very unlikely that the content will be changed much (the layout may change, but that is a question for the tech people anyway) and it is not really necessary to enable every first time wiki user to change it right away. On the other hand, content driven pages should always allow new users to provide or change the content by being very "low tech" in terms of layout.

So in the end whatever you choose is fine for me, as long as
 * 1) it looks nice
 * 2) it is only used on non-content driven pages
 * 3) there will always be at least a small number of people who still know how to work it. --Xeeron 08:18, 17 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Subst is considered not necessary when server load is not an issue. Include means the entire main article gets included, whereas Split puts the redundant information in a separate module for inclusion.  In other words, Split is putting collector info inside Brownlow/Collector, and any article that needs the info will just include that module.  On the other hand, the Include method would put the info directly inside the [Brownlow]] article, and hide the things that don't want to show up with NOINCLUDE tags. -PanSola 08:38, 17 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I disagree with Xeeron on principle. There is no page that is for plebians to edit and a page for experts to edit. Can you find (or even imagine) such a scheme on wikipedia. Are you saying that if ANet alters something in a Collector and does not mention it in the game update, and a user found it out, he is not supposed to update it until one of our veteran contributors comes across it?
 * My choice would be to not make the "arcane" changes, to bear with the "skill" redundancy until the bot solution is tested and if that does not work, then to keep the redundancy. I much rather the skill's info be duplicated in 3 other articles (if we have 8 professions and let's say 3 skill lists per profession, that's 24 articles) that we obfuscate 450 articles from average users. I hate redundancy a whole lot and Tetris can vouch for that, :) but this is a bigger issue. --Karlos 09:21, 17 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Please note a subtile but importent difference between desiring an ideal world and describing the real world. I never said that new users *must* not or *should* not change the collectors lists. However I am very much convinced that they *will* not. And since I think they will not, these pages being harder for them to edit is not as much of a drawback. Oh and since you mention wikipedia, only very recently I checked their help pages to find that I could not understand the code they use, let alone change it. And I am not really a new contributer towards wikis. --Xeeron 11:11, 17 May 2006 (CDT)

I think figuring out how to use an edit link within the article is on the order of diffculty of figuring out how to edit a table. It is just slightly harder than entry-level wiki editing, and thus I still find the merits of the Split method justifying alienating the small population of people who are tech-savy enough to edit a wiki but not quite enough to figure out how to use the edit links. This is with provision that there be comments inside the raw text that instructs -PanSola, Table of The Lyssa Advocacy Front (sing) 01:08, 18 May 2006 (CDT)

Category:Unconfirmed
It's annoying trying to find these from the "What links here", so I made up a (temporary) category to help deal with the notices. - Greven 02:20, 15 May 2006 (CDT)

Current Events
I thought we eliminated that link ages ago, why do I see it in the navigation list again? --Xeeron 04:50, 15 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Good question, it comes and goes, see my frustration on the talk page :p (Also how can we get rid of that damn amazon link, however i keep seeing loading assoc-amazon.com with a gamewikis ref link, so I think I know why its there. I wish gravewit would talk more) Skuld  06:06, 15 May 2006 (CDT)

"Advertisements" in user pages
<...> I know that some of us regular contributors have some kind of adverts on their pages, eg I have a link to my running services webpage, but its a bit different than creating a user just for advertising. -- 04:21, 15 May 2006 (CDT)

I know that some of us regular contributors have some kind of adverts on their pages, eg I have a link to my running services webpage, but its a bit different than creating a user just for advertising. -- 04:21, 15 May 2006 (CDT)

They are just user pages. Don't you yourself advertise your running guild on your page? I seriously doubt Blood is getting any customers from the wiki, and he may well use the login for his own purposes. Perhaps he watches several pages for updates. Deleting users is almost never a good idea. 70.20.116.223 05:27, 15 May 2006 (CDT)
 * I think the idea is more just removing the user page content rather than banning anybody. That's what I'd like to see anyway --Xasxas256 05:39, 15 May 2006 (CDT)
 * I am NOT suggesting removing the USER, but the USER PAGE. User pages created for only advertising should not be tolerated imho. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png|User:Gem]] 05:47, 15 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Why not? Didn't we have a recent arbitration where it was decided that users can say whatever they want in their user pages, barring illegal material? 70.20.116.223 05:49, 15 May 2006 (CDT)
 * There was no official decision. If someone wants to make that an official policy, I definitely vote against it. I am strongly against these advert user pages. I would however first want to hear the thoughts of Rainith himslef who was the one to remove my delete tags. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png|User:Gem]] 05:52, 15 May 2006 (CDT)
 * How can an official arbitration that hinged on the premise that users are allowed full freedom to say whatever they wish not have been an official decision? You are arguing for different standards to be applied to different users. 70.20.116.223 05:55, 15 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Give me a link to the exact place where this was officially made official. I will do anything to have this policy forgotten. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png|User:Gem]] 05:57, 15 May 2006 (CDT)
 * The ruling included a provision that user pages could say pretty much anything on them. The GuildWiki didn't have an official policy on what is acceptable on user pages. However for something like that to be made official, a discussion and/or vote would have to occur first. The arbitration couldn't wait for that so Tanaric made a decision on what he thought would work for that particular arbitration case. That doesn't mean it's an official policy, and there's been plenty of discussion since about what is acceptable on a user's page but no official policy. --Xasxas256 06:05, 15 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Users "can say whatever they want on their talk page" (Requests for arbitration) for one. Granted, it says "talk page", but I assume this leniency extends to the user page too, as I can't imagine the user page being more restricted than the talk page. 70.20.116.223 06:07, 15 May 2006 (CDT)
 * As Xas said, one man can't make a policy. A vote is needed, and I definitely vote for NOT allowing advert pages and such. If nothing else, I would like to see User:Blood user page deleted, its nothing else but an advert. The other could be something else than an advert ofr the guild. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png|User:Gem]] 06:31, 15 May 2006 (CDT)
 * And I disagree. That arbitration should count as precedent, and, while Tanaric wears his arbitrator hat he is more than just "one man". And I agree with him. Users should be allowed freedom to say whatever they want in their user pages, barring illegal stuff and stuff that has been explicitly barred for reasons of being a listed fansite. 70.20.116.223 06:35, 15 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Certainly no one man can make up a policy, unless it is Gravewit or Nunix. No matter if you support it or not. What's the point in not allowing adverts on other pages, but allowing any adverts on user pages? If this means I am allowed to advert GW guilds and fansites on my user page, I'll have one or more guilds pay me GW money for putting large adverts on my user page. This is not going to be a way of proving a point, its a way of using a stupid policy to my advantage. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png|User:Gem]] 06:39, 15 May 2006 (CDT)

For the guild wiki policy, there was another earlier "Rainith Precedent" which differs from Tanarics. The two precedents have different implications on what is allowed on user pages and stuff. I'm not an expert on this type of legality, so I'm not sure whether a later precedent would by default overturn an earlier one, or if the earlier one has greater power as a preceeding precedance. However, if later precedents can overturn previous ones, then I'm not sure how useful they are as precedents since admins can just make new rulings/arbitrations, and have those be used as new precedents to overturn older ones. If anyone knows more about this type of stuff and can enlighten me, that'd be appreciated. -PanSola 06:43, 15 May 2006 (CDT)


 * This is what you get with admin-says-all policies, as I already remarked in the talk page for the arbitration. There is no substitute for a proper arbcom when the benevolent dictator is absent. 70.20.116.223 07:00, 15 May 2006 (CDT)


 * We're not a fledgling country! Don't try to guess which admin is more important that the other, let the community decided with discussion if we can, go to a vote as a last resort. That's how we should decide, like we do for all major decisions. --Xasxas256 07:02, 15 May 2006 (CDT)

I'm Phil, I run the place. My current main character in Guild Wars is Rojhaz Gravewit. He runs the guild, Corpse Corps. Send a tell in-game if you'd like info about joining.

AIM: Sane1983

email: phil.nelson at gmail. c o m

My personal site is www.zerolives.org, and I hate dogs.

Advertising on user pages? I guess the founder of guildwiki is not totally opposed. --Xeeron 08:07, 15 May 2006 (CDT)
 * I totally forgot he hates dogs d-: -PanSola 08:34, 15 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I don't see anything wrong with linking to other websites from user pages. Unless it's something obviously offensive, like pr0n or something, off course. After all, only those who contribute a lot will get other users to visit their user page, so an inactive user creating a user page solely to attract people to his advert will probably get close to zero hits. --Tetris L [[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L block]] 08:51, 15 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Even if it is close to zero, why should we accept it? --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png|User:Gem]] 08:58, 15 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Fisrt of all we should separate the issue of advertisement of ingame services for ingame gold, vs advertisement for guild/characters. In the latter case, the one we observed was just a banner image, it doesn't even say the guild is recruiting etc.  I don't find it different in nature than what most of the rest of us put on our user pages regarding our character/accounts.  As for the former (services), I'm not ready to comment yet. -PanSola 19:53, 15 May 2006 (CDT)

Rainith's response
Sorry for the self-aggrandizing sub heading here, but it was getting really crowded up there, and this seemed like a better place to respond than my user talk page as more of the conversation has taken place here. (The original stuff that started all this can be found here.)

Ok, now on to the issue at hand. I generally dislike the two user pages mentioned, both Bim's and Blood's, but I don't see that there is any point in deleting them for a few reasons. First, from the bottom of User:Blood: This page has been accessed 60 times. That is since its creation more than a month ago, and I'm willing to bet more than half of those hits have been in the last 24 hours. Compare that with my user page, which is probably one of the most drab and boring (in fact it was listed on Stabber's list of boring user pages) of any contributor on the wiki which has at current count 2,899 hits.

The second reason I chose to remove the delete tag was that there was nothing "wrong" with what they were stating, all Bim's has is a graphic with his guild's logo (I assume that is his guild's logo, I'd never heard of them before he created his user page(s) and have only heard of them on said pages since). Blood's just says that he will run people, what to Grotto? Neither of these things are against the rules for a GW fansite, running isn't against the rules in the game, and neither one was all that offensive (IMO), distateful yes, a complete rip-off (in the case of the run), yes, but not offensive (again, IMO).

Now to jog to the side for a minute here, PanSola mentioned the "Rainith precedent" above, and I'd like to explain that one a little bit for people who may be unfamiliar with what happened there. A user, with no contributions (much like the two users mentioned above), posted that he was the greatest GW player ever, that he could kill anyone here, and that he would then go on to blow up their houses. All of that is my paraphrasing of course and I am leaving out the profanity that was about every 3rd or 4th word. At the time this user posted this, there was a small discussion of what to do about this, which really went nowhere. So I took it upon myself to edit the page to remove the user's comments, I did not delete the page, just edited it so anyone can go back in the history and see what it said, revert it if they felt like it, etc... Nothing was ever heard from this user again, which is about what I thought would happen. I don't personally remember what page it was, but it was posted in either the discussion page about Tanaric's recent arbitration or on PanSola's talk page. That is the "Rainith precedent." Why did I do it? One I felt (and still do feel) that any profanity laced tirade doesn't belong here. If we're trying to present this site in a professional light, all that does is detract from all the good stuff there is here. Reason number two for wiping the comment out was that it was a threat, not one that I (or anyone else I think) took seriously, but still it was a threat to do property damage, which is illegal here. Would any sort of case against the person who posted the 'threat' be thrown out in court? Almost definately, but in the end, we can't have illegal activities here.

I do not like editing other people's user pages, I find it distasteful. I don't even like doing so to fix links, it feels like entering someone's home when they aren't there and going through their stuff. I will however do so to remove anything that could get this site in trouble, either legally or cause us to lose our standing as an official fansite with ANet. I felt that the page that I edited did just that, Blood's and Bim's pages I did not feel were a threat.

Gem (and others), I honestly don't know if the above wandering post answers your questions to your satisfaction or not. Post here and I'll respond as best as I can. --Rainith 23:52, 15 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I think that answered in some way and I thank you for taking the time to read it all and answer. It seems that adverting is allowed as long as no one reads it. Bims case is a bit different and I posted my reply on one of his user talk pages. I was going to clear my user pages Running Rangers stuff a bit, but now I wont bother.
 * It seems that nothing good ever follows when I start discussing something policy related. A few days earlier advertising was not allowed, but now that I tried to have ads removed they are allowed again. Not exactly what I was hoping for, although I do understand Rainiths reasons. I'll try to stick with content related stuff only from now on. Thank you everyone who took part in the discussion non-agressively. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png|User:Gem]] 01:41, 16 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Here are my 2 ectos on this issue (they are as cheap as cents now), I find what this Blood guy did to be incredibly lame. But I also draw a hard line in terms of meddling with user pages and limiting free speech. I find it lame because it is his only contribution. We can set a policy that if a user has NO contributions that his page be deleted if it's just for advertisement. But I think that's overkill and just extra work on admins. More importantly, it will create this environemnt where people are starting to police each other's user pages. I really think we have better things to do. --Karlos 05:16, 17 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Hey, can I give you a dollar in exchange for 100 ectos? d-: -PanSola 05:22, 17 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Again: Making a user page solely for the purpose of advertising is obviously entirely pointless, because nobody will ever visit that user page. Only if the person contributes regularly will his name appear on talk pages and on recent changes so he will get some attention and lure people to his advert page. But as he contributes he becomes useful to the wiki. So the problem pretty much solves itself. --Tetris L [[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L block]] 05:26, 17 May 2006 (CDT)

Green Advertisements
So I open GuildWiki today and find that the pages have been invaded by green links that popup little ads. I find this a horrible idea. While advertising on the menu bar is fine by me, I find invading the actual article with this green garbage against the spirit of the wiki. It dilutes the quality of the community works. --Draygo Korvan 13:26, 17 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I also just noticed these ads. Seems to be a nested JavaScript pogram by a company named AdBrite. By disabling JavaScript in your browser settings this should ease the pain, at first.
 * While I honestly agree that there have to be advertisments on this site (since, after all, someone has to pay the bills) I firmly believe that the commercial content and the editorial wiki content should be well seperated. This isn't just an act of fairness towards the readers of this webpage. Rather, engaging these popup boxes while browsing through an article is, to put it mildly, very annoying. (The true words that come up my mind are more harsh to some degree. I will never understand how these companies can believe that by annoying a potential customer any desirable effect can be achieved.)
 * I agree with Draygo Korvan that the popup boxes in fact damage the quality of this website. I plea to reconsider this decision. If more commercial content is needed to fund this project maybe another advertising bar could be added (top, right, bottom?), but IMHO the editorial content should be left untouched. --MRA 18:47, 17 May 2006 (CDT)


 * It's all a part of the Shroud of Silence embraced by Gravewit as a policy to handle any uncomfortable situations. He can write a page in response to questions about cascaded style sheets, but says nothing (does not even acknowledge reading the question) when asked a question that he does not like. Just keep changing things, hope no one notices, or no one cares enough to complain. Questions and complaints posted on this issue at his talk page have gone completely unattended to. Basically, I believe it's "take it or leave it" policy at this point.
 * Once upon a time, he had made a promise that those who donated to the site would not get those pop-ups through special code. This has gone out the window. Apparently, not accepting further donations means that earlier donations (that got the site to not needing further donations) also no longer exist.
 * It's another in a big pile of Charr doodoo I have been witnessing in how this site is run and how Gravewit and Nunix have conducted themselves as leaders of this enterprise. Coupled with a big let down from ANet with regards to the Elite Missions and a let down from a dear in-game friend, I am close to calling it quits on the whole thing. Move on with my life. Rediscover TV. :) A computer game is (and its related activities) are not supposed to bring grief. --Karlos 00:44, 18 May 2006 (CDT)
 * "TV"? *Tries to look it up GuildWiki appreviations* Hmm... *Looks it up in Wikipedia*.  Huh. -PanSola, Table of The Lyssa Advocacy Front (sing) 00:50, 18 May 2006 (CDT)
 * In general I'd say things that are truely enjoyable and worthwhile can also "bring grief". If you're passionate about something you can get more out of it but it also means that you can get hurt more. Remember forget the "dummy spits" and "all the other crap" :D --Xasxas256 00:57, 18 May 2006 (CDT)