Talk:Realm of Torment

Can someone please cite where they got this from? I don't recall ever hearing about this area in the preview event. Just one cite would be nice. :) Nalee Everborn 21:47, 28 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Don't know (since mine hasn't arrived yet) but I think it's in the preview package's booklet? maybe? --Karlos 23:59, 28 September 2006 (CDT)

This info was in the Nightfall article in PC Gamer magazine BMW 00:00, 29 September 2006 (CDT)


 * "It is revealed by the Reaper of the Bonepits in the Underworld that the Realm of Torment is a division of the Underworld where the most wicked go to spend eternity in torment." - Could this connect to the claims from translations of one of the GW sites (I think it was Korean or Japanese) that the dark force behind Nightfall was the same one which had influenced Shiro? I can imagine it is possible the Envoys yanked him from there shortly after his first death. Sunyavadin 06:29, 29 September 2006 (BST)
 * Hm, I never played Factions, but it would certainly be interesting if that was true. I don't think the games are a trilogy.. or whatever, since they are stand alone. But if that comes from a "Core" NPC, then it would make sense. Just like how the Titans are in Abbadon's Mouth. :D Maybe they came from the Realm of Torment.. or their creator did. Or someone just had a thing for burning creatures. Nalee Everborn 11:58, 29 September 2006 (CDT)
 * The games do tie into each other as a series. NPCs in campaigns will frequently refer to the events of other campaigns in the past tense, as well as in Nightfall, the story refers back to the events in Prophecies when the tombs were corrupted, and the Dragon festival 2006 in Factions. Sunyavadin 14:29, 30 September 2006 (BST)
 * Well, yes. But you don't need one for the other. Thats what I mean. While they may mention the events, you don't need the other games to understand what happens in the current one. Nalee Everborn 11:55, 1 October 2006 (CDT)

Well, at the end of the storyline in Factions, the ghostly envoys say that they are sending him to a place in the Underworld where he will pay for his sins, perhaps this is it?

Bone Pits reaper?
I just checked the Reaper of the Bone Pits page, and pages of his quests. None of them mention the Realm of Torment. Is it part of the missing quest rewards? I'm interested in the full original text where the Realm of Torment is mentioned. - 20:21, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
 * The reaper uses the term uncapitolised in the Imprisoned Spirits quest dialogue. -- Gordon Ecker 23:45, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
 * ahh, thanks. That's why I didn't notice it (lower case). It doesn't say "the most wicked go to spend eternity in torment" though... - 23:51, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

The Gates of Hell: Inspiration?
Karlos had added a trivia note saying that the gates in the Realm of Torment are "likely inspired by the references to the seven gates of hell found in the major Abrahamic faiths such as Christianity and Islam.". LordZon removed that note saying that "There are no gates of Hell in the Abrahamic faiths.".

Back when the wiki was slow as hell I did some reseach about the matter, because the Gates of Hell reference occured to me too, but I wasn't able to add my findings to the article because GuildWiki was down once again. Then I forgot. Now I remembered. This is what I found about the "Nine/Seven Gates/Circles of Hell", summed up:

The Bible gives a very unclear description of how hell looks like (if any at all). There is only one reference to the "Gates of Hell" in the bible (Matthew 16:13-18 - Jesus talking to Peter), but Jesus didn't specify any number, neither seven nor nine. (Edit: There are more references to the Gates of Sheol in Job 17:16 and Isaiah 38:10, but again without a number seven or nine. /edit)

The Christian idea of how Hell looks like is largely based on Dante's poem "The Divine Comedy", especially the "Inferno" part. This is where the idea of the Nine (not seven!) Circles of Hell comes from. This is also what inspired books like "The Club Dumas", better known as the movie "The Ninth Gate". I think this is also what inspired the structure of the Realm of Torment. ANet is definetly aware of Dante's description of hell. See Mayor Alegheri.

I can't say much about the Islamic or Jewish idea of Hell, and whether it's seven or nine gates in these. Karlos may be able to fill us in about Islam. I found only that Surah 15:44 specifies seven gates, but there may be other references in the Quran.

ANet may also have used the Greek underworld (Hades) as inspiration, as described by Virgil/Homer, however, the idea of the Gates of Hell isn't quite as prominent here, except for the Gate of Horn (aka Gate of Truth) and the Gate of Ivory (aka Gate of Lies).

How many gates are there in the Realm of Torment anyway? The tricky part is how to count the gates. Only 7 locations in the Realm of Torment have "Gate(s)" in their name. The location Gates of Torment (note the plural) may not be seen as a gate itself, but rather the forecourt from which you access the actual gates. On the other hand, the Vortex may be counted as the first gate. Furthermore the Shadow Nexus ("Nexus" is greek and is usually translated as "connection") may also be counted as a gate. And last but not least there is that mysterious Elite Mission with unknown name that will probably be added to the Realm of Torment soonish. (Note the empty spot on the map in the bottom center.) So, depending how you count you end up with anything between 6 and 10 gates.

Your thoughts? Should we put a trivia note? What should it say? -- 05:42, 27 November 2006 (CST)


 * P.S.: This Babylonian text also lists 7 gates. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 06:15, 27 November 2006 (CST)


 * I researched some more and found that seven gates are mentioned in the Book of Enoch, which is part of the Apocrypha of the Old Testament. While it is not part of the Canon, it has great influence on all Abrahamic religions.
 * Also, in Abrahamic religions Heaven is traditionally seen as having seven layers, and considering that hell is the counterpart it makes sense that Hell has seven as well. Seven is a holy number, and it appears in many places of the Old Testament, Tanakh and Quran. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 07:51, 27 November 2006 (CST)


 * I've gone ahead and added a new trivia note, mentioning some sources for both the numbers seven and nine. Review and comment. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 10:59, 27 November 2006 (CST)


 * Looks good. --Rainith 11:58, 27 November 2006 (CST)


 * I disagree with the constant and consistent muddling of "Gates" and "Circles/Domains." The Gates of Heaven and the Gates of Hell all lead to the same place. Whether a person who enters from Gate 1 ends up in the Abyss or some different zone of hell is not related to the gate he enters from. Dante was describing zones/domains/cricles/sub-areas of Hell (which in my opinion was completely conjured up and has no divine inspiration what-so-ever). The ONLY thing you can match that to is the Domains of Torment, which are NOT nine and are NOT based on sins/vices (Nighfallen Jahai/Lands, Domain of Pain, Domain of Fear, Domain of Secrets, Depths of Madness, Abaddon's Lair?).
 * I also find the muddling of the Vortex and the Shadow Nexus into "possible" gates to be VERY weak. The Vortes is NOT a gate in Torment, read the discription of the Gate of Torment, it IS the Gate to the real world and the Vortex is IN the Gate of Torment, not a separate site. I also find the fact that they chose NOT to name them as "gates" actually a CLEAR argument for the opposite.
 * On a side note, anyone noticed that all the gates on the RIGHT are "good" gates that were either erected by the five gods or mark important landmarks for the "good guys" and all the ones on the left mark things significant for Abaddon? --Karlos 19:58, 27 November 2006 (CST)


 * Karlos: You edited the trivia note in several respects, and I disagree, in two respects:
 * 1) The order of gates (and the number of zones).
 * That hell has only one zone with seven entrance gates (i.e. the gates are in parallel order) is the Islamic version based on the Koran. But in other classic sources hell is clearly divided into more than one zone, and the gates/sections are often in sequential order. We shouldn't disregard these sources. To remain neutral we shouldn't state the order in the trivia note at all. The order of gates in the Realm of Torment is neither strictly sequential nor strictly parallel, so it doesn't match either sources anyway. But that doesn't mean that ANet wasn't influenced by the sources. As usual ArenaNet didn't try to emulate their source of inspiration but rather used it as a starting point and derived their own fiction from there.
 * 2) The number of gates (seven or nine)
 * GuildWiki isn't the place to judge about Dante's validity or inspiration. He mixed non-Abrahamic Greek mythology influences (Virgil's description of Hades - this is where the number nine came from) with sources from the Old Testament. Dante isn't a prophet, his work isn't part of the Canon. Nevertheless you cannot possibly deny or ignore Dante's influence. His "Inferno" is probably THE main source of inspiration for modern day images of Hell in the western world. That includes ANet. In no case will I accept that this source is removed! Or, if it is, then we might as well delete the trivia note alltogether!
 * The number of gates in the Realm of Torment isn't quite clear as you make it sound. Yes, 7 locations are labeled "Gate", but two of these stand out: The Gate of Nightfallen Lands (which isn't one of the "locks" of the Five Gods), and the Gate of Torment (which is the gate to the mortal world). On the other hand I insists that the Vortex and the Shadow Nexus may be counted as gates as well, even though they are not labeled as such. On top of that, I wouldn't be surprised if there was another gate in the Domain of Anguish. So that makes the number of gates anything between 5 and 9 or even and 10, depending how you count.
 * But again, just like the order I don't think the number really matters. The structure of the Realm of Torment does not match the structure of hell as described in the Koran, Divina Comedia, Book of Enoch, Aeneid, nor any other classic source. It differs from all of them in one respect or another. Yet all of them may have been used for inspiration, and we should either list them all in the trivia note, or none at all.
 * I will edit the trivia note again, trying to come up with a version that is as neutral as possible, but I will put the references to the Divina Comedia and the Aeneid back in, as they are definetly relevant here. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 09:39, 29 November 2006 (CST)