Talk:Black Lotus Strike

net energy gain of 7....worths it?

I think so, it makes up for using skills like Mark of Instability, a personal favorite. It does tons of damage anyway, and if it helps energy, thats fine by me. I think its made to offset the energy of a hex. Also, remember thats counting 12 critical strikes, you will probably have more than that.


 * Main problem is Recharge... otherwise it's a great idea. Silk Weaker 07:53, 20 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Assassin's Promise? [[Image:Thedarkmarine.Icon.jpg]] Thedarkmarine 11:49, 20 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Certainly in an promise build, a lot of new skills are open to you, but when comparing this with Golden Phoenix Strike, I can't help but think that the recharge limits the use in PvP. If it's slightly lower, 12/15, even, I would definetly consider using it. I would use it now, too, but only on weird builds. Probably with Shadow Shourd, since it has a long recharge anyway. Silk Weaker 12:09, 20 August 2006 (CDT)

I suggest using it with Impale if your on your own. It will add even more damage to the following Dual Attack and get a Hex for the Black Lotus. &mdash; Poki#3 01:43, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I dont know if the above suggestion has ever worked but i just tried it(01/05/07) and Deep Wound doesnt count as a hex for Black Lotus Strike
 * Look at the date of this comment and look at what impale did then. --Fyren 03:51, 1 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Impale used to be a hex that made them take earth dmage the next time they were hit by a dual attack, so that would've been valid back then --Gimmethegepgun 03:04, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

HA! My prediction came true.Silk Weaker 10:07, 17 September 2006 (CDT)

Holy crap, my prediction came true again. --Silk Weaker 08:03, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

I would combine it with Rigor Mortis If i had a decet assasin.--Coloneh RIP 21:29, 23 November 2006 (CST)
 * Er... why? Expose Defenses blows that out of the water and it's a sin skill. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 01:57, 1 May 2007 (CDT)

19 Critical strikes?
Is it possible to get Critical Strikes to 19? -PanSola 19:13, 13 May 2006 (CDT)

You can get it to 18 I don't know about 19.

16 = superior rune + Keen Mask 17 = Grenths Assassin. 18 = Lyssia's Assassin.

Dagger can go upto 19 with the assitance of a dagger handle of dagger mastery.


 * there is no "Grenths Assassin" so that is incorrect... the correct values are
 * 16 - Max gear and 12 in stat


 * 17 Assassin of Lyssa


 * 18 - +1 weapon (20%)


 * for a max of 18.


 * see Blessing for more info. --Midnight08 09:24, 30 November 2006 (CST)

but what aboute easter eggs and lunar fortunes
 * That discussion was from before there were those items. &mdash; [[Image:Fin_sig.gif|User:Kyrasantae]] kyrasantae   22:57, 18 May 2007 (CDT)

Revert of Trivia
I thought that Trivia about M:tG was interesting. After all, I remember hearing somewhere that many people in Anet play it.
 * It was irrelevant. It explained in-depth why some card which may or may not (and most likely, not) be related to this skill, is rare. In fact, the whole connection is beyond obscure, it's just wishful thinking from people who get their hobbies mixed up or desperately want to see a link to something that's either not there or is entirely unclear from context. If you're so keen on obscure connections though, you might be interested in going to the Skeleton-section, and mention that the red skeletons in Castlevania regenerate when they get hit, and perhaps a "Did you know?"-section, mentioning that you, too have a skeleton inside of you! Just because it's interesting doesn't mean it's relevant. Now, on a more serious note, and this is something I probably should have mentioned instead of writing the above paragraph; the lotus is a flower that's spiritually regarded as a symbol for purity (in general, but also as a purity in other beings). A "black" lotus is a metaphor for an imperfect or tainted human being, the flower itself being a metaphor for a human. So the "Black Lotus" in this skill, would then be the hexed target. Sure, it's obscure, but it beats the crap out of any explanation you'd care to give regarding playing-cards, doesn't it? The More You Know. --Black Ark 09:37, 7 August 2006 (CDT)
 * split the difference boys, once line on MTG, one line on spiritual lotus. 10 words or less. it's not going to mess the article like a paragraph, and everyone gets their trivia in. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 09:58, 7 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Well I certainly didn't expect to get such a hostile response. You can have it your way, I didn't even put the trivia there in the first place. I don't feel like writing it so unless you do...? -- Macros† 10:20, 7 August 2006 (CDT)
 * After reading the Black Lotus article, it sure seems like it is a reference, since Black Lotus (the card) adds Mana to any pool when used, and Black Lotus Strike adds a ton of energy if it hits. See any relation? - 66.67.185.33 13:22, 22 August 2006 (CDT)
 * it's already in trivia, and no more is needed. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 13:29, 22 August 2006 (CDT)
 * It's just a conincedence. In case no has noticed ever, ANet names assassin skills in a certain way to better describe the skill. A skill with "Black" in it means that the targer must be hexed, and "Lotus" means you gain energy. The refers to nothing at all.--Nog64 18:42, 8 February 2007 (CST)
 * Then again, Wizards use a similar convention as well: "Lotus" means gain mana. [[Image:Canada_39x40.png|19px]] Thedarkmarine 00:54, 9 February 2007 (CST)
 * The Black Lotus card is one of the nine most powerful cards in MtG (a.k.a. the Power Nine) and widely known among the players of MtG. The trivia should remain there.cKowDont 07:00, 23 August 2007 (CDT)

Changed
gfg sins &mdash; Skakid9090 01:33, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It's still funny to watch the kiddies still try and use this as an offhand. --Ckal Ktak 11:16, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

bah
Thanks a lot you stupid bursters, you just ruined an EXCELLENT skill for the rest of us --Gimmethegepgun 01:39, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * And you're claiming that the rest of you are not bursters? --GodofJur 02:35, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, in fact. There are a couple intelligent people out there that came up with their own build that was nothing like the crappy burster build. I for one have never used BoA or Tiger Stance on a sin, and I think I've used SP on it a single time --Gimmethegepgun 02:37, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Gimmethegepgun, ur just one of those ppl that suck at survivalism and get spiked by a boa and.....die....Quit ur bitchin and make ur own man....SP sins rule GW...Too bad not now.
 * I lol'd. Thats the most incorrect statement I have ever read. Since WHEN, man? Sure you can win in TA, AB, or CM with those things, but you could also beat the crap out of people with a flare spammer there too. Seriously, the game has over 100 sin skills.... use a single 10-12?
 * uh-huh... yeah... I suck at surviving against a build that can kill basically ANY profession without trying in the slightest? Yeah... Get your facts straight, my rit loves mocking the idiots who used that build because they're too pathetic to kill me (no I don't use VWK, vengeful weapon, weap of remedy, or anything else along those lines). The build was seriously imba, and it's about freaking time ANet nerfed it. Also, blatantly disregard GW:NPA more plx --Gimmethegepgun 00:18, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

This nerf is completely ridiculous. Where did it come from? It's not like bursters are all that hard to stay alive against, and now many of my staple assassin builds are dead. This skill has been around forever, and was not overpowered (except for when it had the 5e cost). While they're at it why don't they just go:

Guardian now must follow Orison of Healing

Lead attacks are useless enough. Maybe it's just me but I have great amounts of difficulty trying to kill anyone who isn't completely pathetic when I'm using a lead-offhand-dual-offhand-dual combo.

These nerfs (and this nerf in particular) are going to kill the usefulness of sins entirely. Assassins do one thing, and they do it well. Well, they used to... 206.72.49.46 16:38, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Look at the bright side, there is NO WAY A-net can nerf the SP sin any more now! 193.90.59.204 20:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * What the hell...I used the burst combo to breeze through PvE and actually make my sin GOOD in FoW, and now they have totally destroyed that. There are so very few options for offhand-dual-offhand-dual combos that this pretty much eliminates that option of a skill chain altogether. Sins kill things well because they have half or more of their skill bar as ONLY attack skills that have to be used in order...so screwing up that order is completely worthless. Now there's really no point at all to use *this* skill...71.158.183.133 00:30, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * True, now this skill has pretty much no point, but in PvE you shouldn't be using a crappy Burster-esque build, you should be using Crit Defenses or Flashing Blades, and fast recharging lead-off-dual combos --Gimmethegepgun 00:32, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * "you should  NOT  be using Flashing Blades" - fixed –Ichigo724[[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 00:40, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Just about the only good PvE elite sins have is Flashing Blades. Pretty much all of the other ones are terrible in general or are extremely niche like SF --Gimmethegepgun 00:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * LOLWUT? MS/DB spam, much? –Ichigo724[[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 00:49, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yep, let's go getting killed (I rarely PUG, so I may not know what sins with non-hench groups do) while trying to do a job that the Eles are supposed to be doing --Gimmethegepgun 00:54, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Let's use an elite for something a non-elite can do? just run cdef/cagi as a ms/db spam and you're fine. –Ichigo724[[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 00:56, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Bah, the h/h are far too mediocre to get you to survive with that, and your energy goes to the shitter real quick spamming those 2. Besides, the enemies in Factions just LOVE to strip enchants --Gimmethegepgun 00:58, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Lolwut? same block amount, extra armor. Spamming em does fine with zealous+crit eye btw, can even fit in more e-management if you want to. And disenchantment? I don't see every ele taking aura of resto as a cover. As far as survival with h/h, not sure, I used to use 2*LoD, but yeah... I'll probably run 2 woh now. –Ichigo724[[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 01:13, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I wasn't saying no to crit agility, was saying that Crit Defenses is sometimes kind of inferior. Also, of course there's those occasions where you for whatever reason can't land a crit (either bad luck or unable to hit in some way) and it goes down and you're hosed --Gimmethegepgun 01:16, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh noes no block, who cares? As long as you aren't doing HM or special parts (or facing an ele boss with chain lightning etc), it's piss easy anyway. And for HM, I'd still run MS/DB actually, clean damage = winrar. –Ichigo724[[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 01:52, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * With no block and all the enemies attacking you because it's impossible to get h/h to aggro properly, you die very quickly as a sin --Gimmethegepgun 01:55, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Any pve sin that needs to use multiple selfprotection skills or use his elite to stay alive is usually no good to the team. I got through pretty much all of the game without any heals. All I can say is: Get better monks. If you h/h, give your hero monks a decent build and pick the right henches (yes they make a difference). If you're still dying, I recommend not playing a pve sin. Btw, MS/DB is probably the highest DPS in the game. P A R A S I T I C 20:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

(RI) if you hate block and want defense:

> flashing blades. Flashing blades isn't bad, it just isn't worth elite status. (unsuspecting or golden fox in the optional) –Ichigo724 01:59, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * My pve build only got a minor nerf btw:
 * Less good than a MS/DB spam, but oh so fun to play. –Ichigo724[[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 00:43, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Less good than a MS/DB spam, but oh so fun to play. –Ichigo724[[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 00:43, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

bugged now?
To parse the language of the skill, it's a lead attack with no pre-requisite of the hex for it to hit now. Instead the hex is only for the energy gain. Currently it's still functioning as before with the hex being a prerequisite for the skill not failing. Crimsonhandhiro 02:41, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * That's what the skill description says... --Gimmethegepgun 02:42, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It's a lead attack WITH the pre-req of a hex. And if hexed it hits, does extra damage, and gains energy. The update did not remove that this skill will always miss if the target isn't hexed -Ezekiel 02:46, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Exactly, the skill description in game lacks this distinction of Must Strike a Hexed Foe now so strictly speaking it either needs it, or it shouldn't require the hex to hit.  Crimsonhandhiro 02:49, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * You're quite right. Our skill description is wrong. one sec. -Ezekiel 02:53, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Too Slow! --Gimmethegepgun 02:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * At least I got it right :P You missed the important part. -Ezekiel 02:57, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * We don't put the Lead attack, Off-hand attack, Dual Attack, etc tags in front of it. They go on the side --Gimmethegepgun 02:59, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Bah, so I see. -Ezekiel 03:01, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Good fight, but I reserve the right... pwned :P --Gimmethegepgun 03:03, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Now it's almost useless. --:-) GlennThePaladin (Talk,Contrib) 18:14, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * And I'm over the fact that it nerfed my build. Because I thought of an alternative (*gasp*). Change the order of the dual attacks, switch out BLS for BSS, change Falling Spider for Falling Lotus Strike, and add a +5 inscription and it'll be good as new! --Gimmethegepgun 20:14, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I thought you "never" used the SP sins and they wrecked your precious BSS?
 * lol, Pwnzer, who ever said I was using SP? I came up with my build entirely on my own a VERY long time ago. In fact, I thought of the concept of it back when Critical Strike was 10 energy cost. I actually created it not long after it was changed to 5 energy (but long before it gave energy back in addition to the autocrit). This was an extremely long time before NF came out, and I haven't changed the build in the slightest since then. Fav part was that it worked on base 25 energy perfectly without ever having energy problems. However, now that BLS can't be used with it, I thought of a change I can give it to make it still work despite the change. This is known as creativity. Learn how to read --Gimmethegepgun 23:15, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Wasn't me or my ip this time. Check history. Also, everybody looking at this should see this for the newest and so far, best new version of the sp sin. One last thing: I hope you have fun using your less effective but creative builds. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 23:53, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Uhh.... err... oops, thought that was yours :/ Now that I think of it, however, I put a message on yours, this one has a different message. My bad --Gimmethegepgun 23:55, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like an attempt of redesigning it. So what? You use Critical Strike instead of Twisting Fangs or Horns of the Ox or Blades of Steel? If that's the only change...."IMO(not targeting you)"I think it's an uneffective one.
 * Lets see... skill similarities between my build and SP noob builds... a skip offhand, and Twisting Fangs. Yup, that's it. Every other skill on my bar is different --Gimmethegepgun 23:29, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Alrighty then....You mentioned Falling Lotus - requires a KD..You probably get it from Horns of the Ox? You mentioned BSS - a part of the SP sins. You also admitted of using Twisting Fangs - another part of the SP sins (although old school ones). You also said u used to use BLS before this nerf. Black Lotus Strike, Horns of the Ox, Falling Spider, and Twisting Fangs....Oh omg, would u look at that? That's the same chain that the first SP build consisted of....Funny eh?
 * I don't use HotO and I don't use SP, Dark Prison, or anything along those lines. The 2 dual attacks on my bar are Critical Strike and Twisting Fangs. Skill literacy with sins help greatly if you wanna figure out what the hex is --Gimmethegepgun 23:40, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Hint: there's only 2 sin hexes that would fulfill what I need, and it's NOT the elite one --Gimmethegepgun 23:44, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I was mentioning the chain, not the hex requirement. Everyone is probably aware a hex is required. You mentioned falling skills, if u don't mind, what's the KD you use?
 * The hex --Gimmethegepgun 23:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, my bad, technically there's 3 that COULD work --Gimmethegepgun 23:48, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

So, u use a hex that causes a KD, i'm guesing Wastrel's Collapse? So, your build requires the perfect timing if u wanna follow up WC w/ a Falling skill. You use Critical Strike, BLS, Twisting Fangs, and a falling skill (order not right but w/e). IMO (again not targeting you)....I don't think an SP Sin is a noob build compared to this.
 * "and it's NOT the elite one" --Gimmethegepgun 23:56, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict)He uses Mark of Instability. Which means a) he doesnt bring a snare or b) if he does bring a snare his spike is easy to spot and catch. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 23:58, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * yay! You get a cookie! However, I rely on people's stupidity (which works VERY well) and they won't run away from me, and they get obliterated --Gimmethegepgun 00:00, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Compare to new sp: less damage, no snare, likely no ias, but has kd. If he brings a shadow step (pretty much needed if you want to kill something with a self heal), that leaves him one slot (assuming no ias and having rez sig). So really, his build trades damage and spiking power for kd and 1 free slot. Also, what do you do when you dont run into stupid people? &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 00:03, 16 November 2007

(UTC)
 * Seeing how this is a FA build, no rez sig, and also your question there then becomes an entirely hypothetical question, as they are ALWAYS present. Also, I assure the kill much better than SP noobs. They get healed in the slightest when the SP hits them and then they live. With me you don't --Gimmethegepgun 00:07, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * (500 ec's)How do you "assure the kill better than SP noobs" when you have less damage and a longer spike? SP's spike takes 4 seconds, yours takes 5.32. SP gets 233 armor ingoring bonus damage, yours gets 139 (assuming same attribs). Auto-attacking doesn't count, as SP's could do that too and is much easier to counter. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 00:21, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Never said my build was as big of a spike as SP, I said I assure the kill. If SP doesn't kill with the combo, what happens? Wasted time. Also, ec's? --Gimmethegepgun 00:37, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, you bring moebius? So you give up 1/2 of your spiking power for mediocre pressure? Jack of all trades master of none type of thing imo. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 00:50, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * You certainly figure things out faster than that other guy! The pressure is not mediocre by any extent, you have never tried it nor seen it used, so how can you base your opinions on anything? --Gimmethegepgun 00:56, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Mediocre compared to anything designed to pressure, I mean. Also, if you want to deal the same amount of damage as the sp sin, you have to hit your chain, moebius, then critical again. Together, it takes you about 8 seconds to do what a sp can in 4. After that you have the sp beat, but whats the point if the target is already dead in the first few? This is also assuming the target doesn't move the 8 seconds your attacking. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 01:13, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * They're knocked down for half the time, and even if they try to run away, unless they run DIRECTLY away (which they rarely do) I'll still be able to hit with a second Critical Strike AND another Moebius after that (if they're still alive). And generally, when people survive that, it's because they healed, but then they're standing still and I just keep beating on them and outdamage it --Gimmethegepgun 01:17, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Knockdowns last 2 seconds, you have a single kd (that I know of). That leaves ~4.5 seconds for them to walk away after they get up. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 01:34, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * With delay, figuring out a direction to go, not paying attention, and melee range actually being relatively long, all taken into account, they rarely get away from me, and even if they manage to get out of range they have basically no health and degen to death --Gimmethegepgun 01:41, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Once again, don't plan on all your opponents being stupid. Also don't plan on them having lag. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 01:54, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Delay meaning that you can't start moving immediately after getting up off the ground, for reason's idk. And as for your "don't plan on all your opponents being stupid", that's EXACTLY what PvP SSers rely on - people being idiotic enough to attack through it, and while near their allies too (though the SSers are morons half the time cause they use Faintheartedness on the same target as SS, but that's beside the point). Fire nukers in PvP also rely on people being dumb enough to stay in the AoE, healers rarely bring self-defense skills because they rely on the lack of the "kill the monk" syndrome, which seems to have disappeared a long time ago for no apparent reason. Thing is, MANY builds rely on people being idiots, and that's why they work to some extent or another --Gimmethegepgun 02:33, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * SS doesn't rely on people on attacking, if they don't attack then its a good thing, if they do attack its a good thing. Win-win situation for the person using ss. Fire nukers aren't used anywhere in pvp except a) in HA, because the opponents basically have no choice but to stand there and take it or b) in FA/AB where the nukers go around killing npcs. Using AoEDoTs anywhere else isn't smart. Here's something funny. Had to do it :p &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 02:57, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Except in FA when I'm facing the idiot Kurzicks they're always nuking the players. And I just LOVE to watch as they clearly cast AoEDoT spells on me. I walk away from the fight, strafing around, and they don't cancel it. Instead they just let it finish and it usually doesn't even do a single point of damage to anyone. And the best (or worst) part? THEY DO IT AGAIN! Since I'm not one of the masses of idiots, they're useless against me, but against the rest of the morons there, they own because they clump together, don't pay attention, and stand in the AoE. People. Being. Stupid. --Gimmethegepgun 03:11, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Teh Uber Pwnzer's taking the words right out my mouth. Ok, no offense, now I just think you're trying to back up your statements which got proved inferior. Yet you still call SP Sins noobs.
 * Do you even know the entire bar I have? No --Gimmethegepgun 00:12, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * You have 2 slots. If you spec shadow arts you would probably put Feigned Neutrality and Expunge Enchantments since those are two of the best utility skills assassins have. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 00:21, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * 3 slots. Instability, BLS, Twisting, Falling, Crit are all you know right now --Gimmethegepgun 00:31, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * So, no shadow step? Even more fail. Any decent (and yes, decent players do sometimes play FA) will pre-kite/pre-prot/be ready to heal themselves when they see an assassin coming.01:13, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * High hopes in the human race would make one believe that. However, hopes hit rock bottom LONG ago, and so experiencing a situation prevails over trying for logic sometimes. LOGICALLY, yes, one would protect themselves or run away or whatever, but EXPERIMENTALLY they don't. What should happen doesn't matter when what DOES happen is different --Gimmethegepgun 00:56, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Still, your build shouldn't depend on your target being completely stupid (except in pve, of course). 99% of all people who play in FA are complete noobs, but there are still some who arent. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 01:13, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * True, but the thing is, 99% are noobs, so there's a small chance that there will be someone good, right? Well, if there's someone good, most likely the rest of their team will be stupid, so I ignore the smart guy and hit the idiots --Gimmethegepgun 01:17, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This isn't AB where killing idiots gives you points (3 points per 1 idiot killed, actually). Killing idiots does practically nothing for your team in FA as the idiots hardly do anything to contribute to their team, let the npc's kill them. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 01:34, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * There's 2 kinds of idiots in FA: The wammo-esque idiots (the worthless ones) and the idiots that do something productive. You don't have to be intelligent to be productive as a monk keeping a team alive, or some stupid fire nuker cashing in on the cannon fodder warriors running in (I play Luxon side). Though they're idiots, they don't need to be smart to have an effect on the game, so they have to be removed. Also, when I meet random people outside and I'm running in, they engage me, and it barely uses up any time to kill them anyway, so I kill them :P --Gimmethegepgun 01:41, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * When you have no other targets, yeah, kill the idiots. When you get to choose between a smart person and an idiot, its better to kill the smart person as they contribute more than the idiots. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 01:54, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * And more than likely (in FA) the "smart" ones are the "smart idiots", who contribute to the team but are still dumb enough to let a sin get to melee range --Gimmethegepgun 02:33, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm talking about the real smart people (they do exist). If you had a choice between a "smart idiot," and idiot, or a real smart person, the person who you want to kill most is the person contributing the most, i.e. the smart person. &mdash; Teh Uber Pwnzer 02:57, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, since pretty much all the "real smart people" seem to never stop me from hitting them either through skill usage or running away, they aren't quite the "really smart people", they're "smart idiots". And seeing how with say, a monk in FA, you don't really bring self-defensive skills. Why? Because you know the other team is too stupid to attack you and just attacks the meat shields in front of you, so it's just a waste of a skill slot. The ones that do bring defensive skills are just wasting their skill slots and don't qualify as the "really smart people". Just the ones that bring no defensive skills don't run away, so they're idiots too :P --Gimmethegepgun 03:11, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Heh, whatever man...I'm done here. You know what just happened, inside hopefully you're done calling SP Sins noobs. It's an easy build to use, and apparently requires no skill, but hey, in the end isn't that the point of the build? To make your jobs easier? I think so.....And trust me, anyone can pull off the chain and hit hard, but where and when you do it is pretty important....The dedicated lovers of SP's have realized that. One last thing, Teh Uber Pwnzer, right on.
 * lol, the only SP sin I won't call a noob (even if it's someone I know well I'll still most likely call them a noob) would be the person who originally created it, because its creation required a good deal of thought. My hat's off to them, but the people that just copy it everywhere, well, they can go rot --Gimmethegepgun 00:31, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I never ran SP sin before the nerfs. I tried it once, and found it extremly "cheap" and not very innovating or challenging to use the build. The problem with finding good chains is that many of the other unused sin skills are ignored due to long recharges and lack synergy (desperate strike comes to mind). If anet wants people to stop using one build because of the excellent synergy, they need to improve the other assassin skills, or create more synergy between them. For example, I like the skill iron palm but the 20 second recharge kills the use of it as a lead attack and weakens versatility of the rest of your chain. Desperate strike is a lead attack that only adds plus dmg when your health is below certain %. As most sins shadow step into battle (pvp), your health most likely will be 100%. AoD sins will most likely pack Golden Phoenix Strike, but with the Horns of the Ox nerf, this extremly diminishes their spiking ability (using the standard 4 chain, GPS->HotO->FallingLSorFS->TForBoS with Impale when using BoS). There are multiple elites that people don't run due to their weakness compared to Shadow Prison (snare, hex, shadow step, serves 3 purposes) and their lack of synergy with other skills. Seeping Wound, for example, has excellent synergy with bleeding, poison skills of the assassin but is just too weak to run in a build. Hidden Caltrops only cripples when they are hit, causing it to fail as a snare (you have to use another slot for a shadow step or running stance to catch and hit the target, making it inferior to SP). Beguiling Haze takes way to much energy to even complete a chain off the initial shadow step. With AoD, you have to bring a increased run speed to catch your target, so why not just use Shadow Walk and a running stance? Wastrel's Collapse just fails as an elite, self explanatory. If it was more like its sister skill Mark of Instability, it would be used more often. Nerfing one build of skills does not make the other skills any better! It just makes assassins worse off! --Lann 03:19, 16 November 2007 (UTC)