GuildWiki talk:Community portal/Archive 23

CATcha
(Reset indent) I have changesets prepared to update ConfirmEdit (replace ReCaptcha with Asirra and modify the triggers) and to install AbuseFilter (no sense ignoring a tool that could be useful). I will push them to the repository as soon as we agree that there is consensus for these changes.

Also, @Giga: Have you begun to pursue the direct access with Donovan? &mdash;Dr Ishmael 21:30, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
 * If we get AbuseFilter, I'm not sure we'll need to update the CATcha triggers. --JonTheMon 13:46, 10 June 2011 (UTC)


 * They serve different purposes. ConfirmEdit is preventive, while AbuseFilter is reactive.  You can't define filters in advance for every single attack that will happen in the future, but if the bots can't save any edits in the first place, you'll have fewer successful attacks that require a response.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 14:37, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I can live with that. --JonTheMon 14:48, 10 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I have every confidence in you (plural you) and fully support your decisions. A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 15:38, 10 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm going to request that the AbuseFilter extension be installed today. We are using it on the Terraria Wiki quite successfully against these types of gibberbots that started attacking early yesterday. Jon created the filter, and overnight it disallowed 99 gibber edits. You can choose to use it or not, but if you wish to see anon edits re enabled, it's probably the fastest solution. While it's not perfect, it's a relatively easy. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png|19px ]] talk  13:18, 13 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Great, thanks! I'm also pushing the ConfirmEdit change to Asirra (or CATcha as Jon likes to say :P ), but without the new trigger settings - it will still only trigger if a new external link is added, when creating an account, and after 3 failed login attempts.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 15:23, 13 June 2011 (UTC)


 * CATcha is live. &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 16:25, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * No, it's not. --31.150.9.250 21:09, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Try with a link to an extremely unlikely page to have been linked before, say, here (random link to random amazon). "it will still only trigger if a new external link is added, when creating an account, and after 3 failed login attempts." ∵Scythe∵ 23:48, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
 * That's a nice sofa. If it only blocks new external links, we could just add links to the spamlist as they come up. Eventually we'll run out of old ones. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png|link=User:Felix Omni]] 01:30, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
 * That's no sofa! (it's a slipcover, they're made to prevent your cushions from becoming threadbare.) ∵Scythe∵ 02:13, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Sofa is the last word in the product title, therefore it's a sofa. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png|link=User:Felix Omni]] 04:13, 18 June 2011 (UTC)


 * You're all idiots, for different reasons.
 * @Mr. IP: You added those links on the Sandbox within an HTML comment. That's not actually adding a link to the page, because it isn't displayed.
 * @Scythe: "a new external link" means a new link on that article, not new to the wiki overall. That's just dumb.
 * I know it was enabled because I tested it - I logged out, then added a link to an article that wasn't on the article before and was not hidden in a comment. Asirra was triggered.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 04:50, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Asirra was installed on GuildWiki and another Curse wiki yesterday, but after testing it was discovered that it was blocking new user registrations for some reason. It's been removed and ReCaptcha has been installed until they can figure out what the problem is with Asirra (or another alternative). -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png|19px ]] talk  05:09, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
 * "You're all idiots" seems like a bit of a harsh critique... :'( ∵Scythe∵ 13:47, 18 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Goobers? &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 14:04, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
 * That may be a personal attack depending on whether you mean nostril mucus or the delicious candy. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png|link=User:Felix Omni]] 15:01, 18 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Goober = peanut (and the chocolate-coated peanut candy), booger = snot. I've never heard of "goober" referring to the other.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 15:29, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I guess I've confused anagrams with synonyms again. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png|link=User:Felix Omni]] 16:40, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
 * You're all idiots, that wasn't a srs omfgwtfbbq he called me an idiot. ∵Scythe∵ 22:58, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
 * A village is calling, they want their idiots back. ;-) Ariyen 03:36, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Downtime
Working on the assumption that the downtime will become a topic of conversation, I provide a link to Curse's explanation for the downtime. Nwash  12:00, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Curse changed our footer
Curse made a number of changes to our base code today, one of which was to add an additional copyright notice to the Curse footer.

"GuildWiki content and materials are trademarks and copyrights of ArenaNet or its licensors. All rights reserved."

This is incorrect. GuildWiki content is not copyrighted at all, it is free content under the Creative Commons. The only content that is copyrighted by ArenaNet is images that are screenshots, concept art, or other game assets, and this is clearly specified by the template on each image's page.

This needs to be communicated to Curse, and it should probably come from a bureaucrat (**coughFelixcough**). &mdash;Dr Ishmael 14:42, 30 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm reading this!! -- Bumble talk 14:48, 30 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Ah, alrighty then. It's hard to tell when anyone from Curse is actually paying attention to our discussions here.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 16:08, 30 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I just noticed something else. They updated our license from CC 2.0 to CC 3.0.  I don't think that's allowed?  Not without consent of the majority of the editors, anyway.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 16:33, 30 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Ugh, another bad change:
 * We do NOT want normal users to be able to suppress redirects. This was something we corrected right after moving to Curse.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 16:40, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
 * We do NOT want normal users to be able to suppress redirects. This was something we corrected right after moving to Curse.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 16:40, 30 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I pushed a new version of LocalSettings.php to correct these issues. Please install it ASAP.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 17:08, 30 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Also, I'm just 'wtf?' at these changes.

$wgGroupPermissions['*']['edit'] = false;

$wgAutoConfirmAge = 345600; $wgAutoConfirmCount = 5;

$wgGroupPermissions['*']['createpage'] = false; $wgGroupPermissions['user']['createpage'] = false; $wgGroupPermissions['autoconfirmed']['createpage'] = true; $wgGroupPermissions['sysop']['createpage'] = true;
 * You've completely disabled anonymous editing again, and you're preventing anonymous and non-autoconfirmed users from creating pages. You've also instituted requirements for a user to be autoconfirmed: 4 days and 5 edits.  Why?  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 16:45, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm hoping this is just a mistake. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png|link=User:Felix Omni]] 20:31, 30 June 2011 (UTC)


 * If it weren't for the GuildWiki-specific changes to LocalSettings, I would almost think that they somehow forked our repo with another wiki. &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 20:35, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Anonymous editing has been re-enabled, the license change has been reverted, and the Curse footer now says "GuildWars content and materials..." No explanation yet for the autoconfirmed time/edit requirements or the createpage restrictions. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 14:37, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Curse changed our extensions
Curse made a number of changes to our extensions this morning. Since I'm the only one with repository access anymore, I'll summarize the changes here. Also, since Bumble already has her eyes on this page, maybe she can provide an explanation for some of these changes. (I'm not going to bother signing the individual sections, I think y'all are smart enough to figure it out.) &mdash;Dr Ishmael  16:28, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

AntiBot
This isn't doing anything right now because it runs off of modules, and WikiMedia isn't releasing the source code for their modules (so the botters can't adapt to them). Curse would have to write their own modules, or somehow finagle them out of WM people, for this to do anything.

Cite
Might be useful, but going forward we would develop an inconsistency between old and new articles, unless we could get people to volunteer for going through and updating old pages (where we've adapted a strategy of in-line linking for the most part). If we'd had this from the beginning, that would've been great. Now, though, it's a "too little too late" scenario.

EmbedVideo
Everything EmbedVideo does we can already do with widgets. Granted, it combines all video sites into a single function, whereas we have to create a new widget for each site, but I don't recall anyone complaining that we don't have a widget for DailyMotion or Revver. Also, we can easily customize the widgets in-wiki versus having to update the extension code.

Nuke
I assume they installed this as a reaction to the recent bot attack; unfortunately, it would have been useless during that attack, for two reasons. 1) It's only useful against page-creation spam, and the attack was primarily edits to existing pages. 2) It's only useful if all the spam is from a single user/ip, and our attacker was using a botnet and/or rolling proxies. I guess there's no harm in having it around, though, unless one of our admins goes feral and starts abusing it (not likely).

ConfirmEdit
It looks like they dropped the ReCaptcha version of the extension and installed the base version instead. The problem is that, without an additional configuration option, they have replaced ReCaptcha with... wait for it... SimpleCaptcha. All this does is present a simple math problem, in plain-text. ReCaptcha may have been compromised, but this is even worse.

InputBox
They removed the code that allows the use of 'type=create'. Not sure why they did that, but it doesn't really affect us. The same functionality is available in CreateBox, which we also have installed, so I guess it was redundant in any case.

SpamBlacklist
They removed the link threshold check, where it only allows 5 external links to be added to a page in a single edit. I don't know why they did this, since link-spam is a common form of vandalism. SimpleCaptcha certainly isn't going to stop it.

New users
New users seem to be getting this while trying to create their accounts: A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software. The last attempted database query was: (SQL query hidden) from within function "SpoofUser::getConflicts". Database returned error "1146: Table 'guildwiki.spoofuser' doesn't exist (10.0.0.55:5002)".

Made worse by the fact that they can't make anonymous edits to complain about being unable to create accounts. Yamagawa 19:29, 2 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Huh. I wonder if that wasn't what was blocking account creation before, and not Asirra.  If only I had direct access I could change things around and run some tests right now, but alas...  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 20:20, 2 July 2011 (UTC)


 * New user creation works now. Kaelten created the missing table.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 14:35, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

New skill box format
I have a proposal for a revamp of that I've been stewing over for nearly a year. I've implemented the changes at and, as well as setting a couple new CSS rules in MediaWiki:Common.css, and you can view it in use on Unbalancing Soul Explosion.

The new CSS rules apply green and gray colors to bold and italic text, respectively, that appears within any element with. This enhancement could easily be added to the existing skill box (independent of any other changes) by simply wrapping the descriptions with a span tag.

The idea came to me when I first started extracting skill descriptions from Gw.dat. The raw descriptions allow for the insertion of the "green number" variables by using placeholder parameters that look like. Each string can use up to 3 of these parameters. (Because the % symbol is used to identify the parameters, when an actual % symbol is desired, it is given as .)  There is also a mechanism for plural forms - the word that follows a parameter can be appended with a value in square brackets that is used if the parameter is not 1. The most common usage is for durations, e.g. .  More complex plurals (anything besides adding an 's') use the format.

I figured this format could translate well to the wiki, but it took me a while to actually start working on it, and then even longer to get it to a point that seemed good enough to use.

In the new template, the description and progression parameters are completely changed. and  have been replaced with   and. All of the  parameters are replaced by ,  , and   (* = 1, 2, 3), where _min and _max are the values at the "anchor" attribute ranks of 0 and 15 (these are the values that are set explicitly in the game engine, everything in between (and above 15) is calculated). The _min and _max values are used to build "range" variables that then replace the str* parameters in the raw description; currently, I have it designed to calculate the 12 value and display a 3-value range of 0...12...15.

There are a number of advantages:
 * Simplification. It only requires the green number values to be entered once, in the _min/_max parameters, instead of 3+ times like the current implementation (in the normal description, in the concise, in the progression_* parms, and in any QR notes the skill may have).  I haven't modified the QR boxes yet to handle the parameter substitution, but it can be done.  It also eliminates the confusion of having to provide both 0...12 ranges (in the descriptions) and 0...15 ranges (for progression).
 * Easy to change for skill updates. The numbers only have to be changed in one place.  I can copy the descriptions directly from Gw.dat without the bother of inserting and formatting the numbers manually.

There are also a few drawbacks:
 * Descriptions have to be copied from Gw.dat. This isn't really necessary when a skill receives a simple text update (typo correction etc.), but when a skill gets a major revamp, the only way to be sure which parms are used where is by pulling it out of Gw.dat.  (Of course, as long as they are internally consistent in the skill template, they wouldn't have to exactly match the game's raw version.)  Luckily, I already have a Perl script that I've been using to parse out the text files from Gw.dat, and I could extend it to grab the skill descriptions from those files and post them to the wiki if they've changed.
 * Plurals. I don't know how to handle the plural format with wikicode.  There are a number of ways we could handle it, but I'll leave that open to discussion.
 * Links. If I do write a script to automatically post new descriptions to the wiki, it wouldn't be able to make any links in them.  Well, it could, but it would have to be based on a list of all the different words that need to be linked (and would have to relate various word forms to the article that it needs to point to, e.g. resurrect -> Resurrect (action), knocked down -> knockdown).

Anyway, I need to stop typing and post this so I can go eat lunch. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 17:15, 8 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Sooooooo... It's been 3 weeks, and there's been no feedback on this. Does that mean: a) everyone likes it and just doesn't feel like commenting on it, b) no one really cares, c) no one feels qualified to comment on it, or d) the wiki is finally dead and I should just give up?   &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 20:13, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * As I don't play this game much anymore, I haven't been paying much attention. That's my excuse.  A quick look at the page and some skimming of the code leads me to believe this is more than worthwhile, though, but hopefully you'll get more feedback from more active editors (here anyway) and players.  Nwash  [[Image:User-Nwash-Eyes.png|link=User talk:Nwash]] 20:57, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Uh, I saw this once, thought about it, then got distracted. Now that I've given it a second thought, it looks like it would be a good way to standardize things and give us options for extracting data for skills. My only concern is that this change would be moving us closer to 1...15 instead of the 1...12 that we've tried to adhere to. I'll probably have more thoughts later, but that's my initial (second) thoughts --JonTheMon 21:01, 28 July 2011 (UTC)


 * The number ranges displayed in skill descriptions can remain 0...12 if desired, that's not really an issue. The big change is that those numbers will no longer have to be typed into the descriptions manually, but will instead be dynamically inserted based on the exact 0...15 data needed for the progression calculation.  Thus, we can easily display whichever range we wanted in the descriptions, whether we decide on 0...12 or 0...15 or 0...12...15.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 21:19, 28 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Erh, Ish. When you posted I was like; Dude, epic wall of text. I don't have a real opinion. I wouldn't mind if you would try and improve the wiki, but I wouldn't care if you didn't. That might just be my (and the rest of tha wiki, probs) problem. Go ahead, you have my blessing. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 21:42, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Tonight's attack
Sorry guys, I was busy delivering pizza tonight (or rather, I was busy standing around the store waiting for people to make orders so I *could* deliver some pizza... unusually slow for a Saturday). It looks like we actually blocked a significant number of potential edits with AbuseFilters [ 3] and [ 4], but they weren't quite good enough to catch everything.

So I tweaked them a bit, and they now match every vandal edit that got through tonight (as well as the ones that have been blocked by filter 1 since it was enabled), without any false positives. I also marked them as Private, so the botters can't adapt to the new conditions. I haven't disabled filter 1 yet, because I'm going to bed, and I'd rather someone were on hand to monitor things before we open the floodgates again. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 04:26, 17 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Seems you guys are still dealing with it - great job on keeping up with them, and keep up the good work everyone. I'm still positive it's the work of 1 PC, due to the IP address spoofing (hello, 127.0.0.1?? - that's the web server GuildWiki runs on haha). If only we could track it back to it's source and bitch slap 'em :P Aloha, Mauirixxx 18:05, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Facebook Extension?
Any chance we could get the option to login via Facebook via this extension? I know it was an option when we were on Wikia (I even used it) - I'm just curious as to why we don't use it now? If anything, it may encourage some anonymous editors to login/create an account .... no? THoughts? Aloha, Mauirixxx 20:20, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Errrrhhhh, Facebook? You crazy, bro? Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 08:47, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
 * No, and my mommy had me tested too. Just curious as to why the hate towards the facebook connector? Aloha, Mauirixxx 22:50, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Facebook is for the faceless masses, and we're all rugged individualists here. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png|link=User:Felix Omni]] 22:51, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * But if they create an account here ... they wont be faceless anymore ... no? Aloha, Mauirixxx 22:57, 20 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Probably because it reminds us of Wikia, and most of us "veterans" felt it was just another useless "social" thing that Wikia was forcing on us. So basically, bad vibes.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 23:19, 20 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Well that makes sense ... thanks Ish. Aloha, Mauirixxx 23:22, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * If I may offer a less-subjective reason, as a privacy nut: Putting up "like" buttons and GA scripts is essentially like placing cameras you don't control on your fence, facing towards your yard. Any time a web asset loads in your browser (such as that ubiquitous thumbs-up button), the originating server logs information about the request (including the page it was viewed from), which in turn can be further processed by a script to create a profiling database, suitable for marketing or selling to marketing agencies. While in theory, this can be done by any web server, google and facebook are networks well-known for using the tactic even when acting as a third party. So by putting up one of those confounded buttons/stat scripts, you're essentially giving them free data mining access. And that's why facebook extensions get my "don't like". This concludes this episode of Tin Foil Hat Theatre. — ızǝℲ 01:38, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmmm... I remember somewhere that it was rumored the Facebook extension made the entire site run slow, but that's all I remember. Anyways yeah a post on facebook about liking a page, a post that you made an edit? Ehhh, no thank you.– User Balistic Pve sig.pngalistic 05:29, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I genuinely hate that facebook is on everything, and I can't see what it brings to any website other than potentially extra traffic, and I can't see what benefit it would have for the wiki if it was an option. Wikis should be as objective as possible and the facebook community is anything but objective. &mdash; Viruzzz 07:11, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not for the facebook feature. While it may seem nice in the respect of "traffic", etc., I don't think it'd be the kind that we'd want. This isn't a social media site. It's a site documenting just about anything about Guild Wars and I prefer it to remain that way for the time being. Just wish Curse would add us to other Guild Wars related sites, etc. that they host. I feel that'd draw in the right kind of people that we'd look for. Ariyen 07:23, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I feel like I just ripped off a scab. I get it though, Facebook integration = bad. Just gotta think of other ways to get the anons to want to create an account and keep contributing here :) Aloha, Mauirixxx 09:25, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The Facebook extension is not something Curse is currently considering implementing on any network wiki due to Facebook's repeated problems with security and data privacy. It also creates general degradation of wiki performance. Just so you guys can just put this subject to rest. We are looking at implementing some alternatives for "Liking and Sharing" that are java based rather than through the extension. -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png|19px ]] talk  13:18, 21 July 2011 (UTC)


 * We don't want anything for "liking and sharing" - the only feature of the FB extension we would have used was Facebook Connect, to allow single-sign-on. &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 14:24, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * And that is the absolute worst feature of the extension. We won't be adding anything without discussing it with you first (I promise). -- Wynthyst [[Image:User Wynthyst sig icon.png|19px ]] talk  01:04, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Wait, what the worst feature - SSO, or the like/unlike stuff? I only brought it up for the SSO stuff (liking a wiki page is stupid, I never used it back on Wikia - but I did use the SSO feature). In any case, dead horse and all that ... Aloha, Mauirixxx 01:15, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Abuse filters + PvX
Do the guildwiki admins mind if we copy/adapt your filters for our wiki? I'm not very good with creating these filters, and the bots seem to be stepping up attacks on our wiki. Also, you should probably set the two that are publicly viewable to private. Toraen  talk  16:34, 20 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't see why not. I forget, do we have anyone (active) who's an admin on both wikis?  If not, I can email you the conditions for the private filters.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 18:25, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * We currently share zero admins, so an email will do. Toraen   talk  19:26, 20 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Sent. &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 19:46, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you! They've already blocked quite a few edits. Toraen   talk  21:24, 20 July 2011 (UTC)


 * If you'd like for one of us to help you maintain the filters, e.g. propagating changes when we modify or add filters here, we'd be happy to. Just make either me or Jon an admin there so we can edit your filters.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 02:57, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Make me supreme overlord and I shall extend my benevolence to your forgotten realm. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png|link=User:Felix Omni]] 08:14, 21 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Ignore Mr. Felix, we just keep him around for the lulz. Already need to make a change - had the wrong variables in one place in the Mainspace large removal filter.  Replace the first line below with the second line.

( length(added_lines) / (length(removed_lines)+1) < 0.05 )

( length(new_wikitext) / (length(old_wikitext)+1) < 0.05 )


 * &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 16:12, 21 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the fix, now I know why one managed to get through. I'll talk with Phen and Auron about getting one of you permissions for modifying the filters (they're our only active bcrats currently). Dunno if they'll go for it and I'm not entirely sure it's the best idea ever. If it doesn't work though you could always make me an admin here! (please don't do this) Toraen   talk  03:28, 22 July 2011 (UTC)


 * It's more work, so I didn't bother suggesting it before, but you could set up a new user group for the AbuseFilter permissions and add us to that instead. &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 03:51, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I had actually been thinking of that, but I don't know what that entails since I'm just a lowly admin. I'll have to talk to them about it tomorrow though. Phen is likely asleep (he's not on MSN at any rate). Toraen   talk  04:27, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Just dropping in to say the usergroup has been requested and I'll add both Ish and Felix to it when it's up! Thanks guys =) Phenaxkian 23:24, 22 July 2011 (UTC)