User:Mendel/Talk Archive 1

Welcome
Hi Mendel! I'm Isk8, I play GW too! All kidding aside, welcome to Gwiki! --   I~sk8   (T/C) 06:42, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you. mendel 06:48, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It's nice to see that you've made an account. I was hoping you would. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 18:12, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you. This doesn't necessarily mean that I edit more, I'm still a casual player of GW and casual user of Guildwiki, but I thought it'd help if I got myself into arguments.... mendel 18:16, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * OMG, Isk, you don't actually play GW??? d-: -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 09:52, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Old talk about split skill...
... can be found here. mendel 06:53, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

well well
Its not often we get new members taking such an interest in the very goings-on in the wiki. Good job! :) &mdash; Warw/Wick 14:30, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you! I've been using the wiki for half a year now and doing occasional edits, so I'm not exactly new. Best way to get into it, too. I hope you're not too miffed about my wondering what your bot does. I'm sure my first attempts at botting aren't going to be smooth sailing, either. mendel 14:32, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd advise starting with somthing simple, like AWB (search wikipedia for it- Auto Wiki Browser), then moving on to more advanced stuff, and if you screw up with the advanced stuff, go back to the simple stuff! d-:. I've been using my bot for a number of things. Recently I've been doing testing about trying to give the bot its own "mind", as you can see from its randomized contribs list. Its not working very well d-: &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 14:35, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Also, without a Bot Flag (request here) you maynt run full-auto bots. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 14:36, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Viper hates the RC spam you get. :P &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 14:36, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Who says and how would you know? ;-) (mendel)
 * 'cuz viper told me ingame a while back ;p &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 14:38, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I know by the RC spam, yes (HAAAATEEE). A bot really stands out as other edits are only singular edits, and irregular. If someone's crashing RC with exactly 4 edits per minute and exactly the same edit each time... --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 14:39, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * May, giving the bot its own mind, shouldn't that be tested offline? On an installation of Mediawiki on your own 'puter? We don't want it to take over teh Intarweb to erect an evil dictatorship, do we? mendel 10:20, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

.js
The part you copied from me is only good here for now --Gimmethegepgun 23:30, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * If you change your template to use pvp_ prefix instead of _pvp postfix, you can use it with mine. mendel 23:37, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Suffix. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 00:11, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/postfix mendel 07:10, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmmm... I don't like it. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 07:16, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok. I'll suffix your suffix until you're suffix in the suffix. mendel 07:33, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I can't even think of a suffix that would fit in that context. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 07:33, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the role of policy
I noticed your discussion on the AN about Entropy's decision to deflag completely inactive Sysops. As far as the question about "the role of policy" is concerned, you might want to check out some of the Wikipedia essays in the "references" section on my user page (assuming you haven't already) and then for good measure read [http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_Wiki_talk:Elections/2007-12_bureaucrat_election/Defiant_Elements#Possibly_the_best_thing_for_this_wiki.2C_and_he.27s_shot_down. this] -- by which I mean the discussion between Tanaric and Xeeron. This comment is predicated on the assumption that you're interested in the policy question; if not, ignore it. *Defiant Elements*  +talk  03:10, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm reading that now, it's a handy collection. Probably should be re-read once in a while. I'm going to collect some quotes here that I think serve my point - though arguing from (wikipedia) policy is not something I do lightly, and it's pointless as far as wikipedia policy is concerned: arguing from our own policies serves to identify where our own policies don't properly reflect community consensus (have you seen my comments on GW:ULC? Gah!). And of course they should, because it helps orient new members (such as me).
 * Frequently, we simply write down what already happens. (Last paragraph of Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Product%2C_process%2C_policy)
 * From your election talk: Never were policies justification for any action -- they merely reflected the common values the group already had. When new editors came to the GuildWiki, we pointed them to the policy portal so that they could see what our culture was like. (Tanaric)
 * Nothing what I read surprised me much. However, what is conspicuously missing from that is that policies are condensed history. Respecting a policy means willingness to learn from history. In the admin policy, theer are several sentences that deal with admins being admins for life and what that entails, so that's a strong hint that historically there was a need to express that consensus. Noone's (publicly) examined that consensus and whether the arguments for it might have a bearing on the current situation, and that's another thing that makes me feel slightly uneasy. But that may just mean that I'm the one to do the examining, then.
 * Thanks for assuming. mendel 08:07, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Tanaric added much of GW:ADMIN on March 20th 2006, and there is no discussion on the talk page. So if there is a history behind that, it may be hard to find. mendel 09:26, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * There was no discussion, but the policy's been cited a few times. I'd still have asked the admins in question to step down (rather than break policy); after all, they're the best judges of whether it's probably for them to return. Oh well. mendel 09:50, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Specific
Dont undo edits that were actually useful, only ones that did somthing wrong. for instance, shouldn't be reverted, nor should  to. :|. Its "Cleanup", not "Revert every change" 78.86.62.140 17:19, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I have 300+ pages to revert in User:Talk alone. When I see in the history that the last edits were Maybot edits, I revert them unseen because I want to get the job done. The useful bot changes can more easily be redone by rerunning the bot than by me working by hand, I believe. That said, I don't usually do anything with the signature rewrites, so these should be ok. Where did you see these done by me? mendel 17:27, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
 * But the point is the effort of it. From what I can see, "Go Go the ability to do two tasks in one" is the one that is useful, and "Bot Testing" or "Relinking as per Bot Tasks" is the bad summary. 78.86.62.140 17:28, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
 * No, the GoGo makes wrong edits that delete information; it uses the DeleteLink template wrong, if I recall correctly. The only edits I trust are the signature rewrites. May I ask that wherever you revert my reverts (breaking policy yourself, btw) you keep the Maybot changes concerning the DeletdLink template reverted? Please read Cleanup_after_Maybot. mendel 17:35, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The GoGo is the one that does PanSola's sign. 78.86.62.140 17:36, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't normally revert that, but see above. Why does it break GW:SIGN? mendel 17:39, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The stuff that Marvin works on is easier as it allows a simple rewrite to fix the Maybot edit, and that leaves any subsequent changes intact. Except for the earliest dozen or so, I did have problems with those on User:, I believe. May possibly changed the bot programming but didn't change the summary. Maybe that should be required in the new bot policy: indicate bot version in the summary, and make a new version whenever the bot gets changed (even a tiny little bit). mendel 17:44, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
 * A couple things:
 * The anon reverting your edit does not break 1RV, as each editor has only reverted once. 1RV is only broken if the same editor reverts something more than once.
 * It breaks GW:SIGN because signatures are not supposed to be transcluded. It's been mentioned off and on for a while now that old signatures that did use templates should be rewritten, but no one had bothered doing it yet.
 * &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 20:23, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Nope, GW:1RV isn't per editor, it's per article )-: -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 05:27, 2 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, it was when I last read it. Considering it had gone 18 months without a significant revision, it's no wonder I missed what was added on March 20.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 05:37, 2 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Ah, that's nice, saves me ranting about that. I've still to write my POLICY:RFAQL proposal, though: "Revert first, ask questions later" seems to be pretty much community consensus. Without the "ask questions" part. (Present company excluded.) mendel 05:45, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

GW:SIGN was broken before. We don't have a GW:MATCHING BRACES or I could have invoked that on that revert, I think. Gah! UCS is dead (present company excepted)!

I'm pretty pissed off at the moment anyway because AWB has gone on strike. I click save, and it acts as if it saves, but the wiki doesn't have the changes. I think May has encountered similar behaviour. It is not a direct result of the stop via the talk page, because Marvin contributed after that no problem. No admin action has been taken either, I can manually post from the account, and the logs are empty. It might be that wikia is too slow at this time of day. But it does suck when you happily save away (and I've been lots of manual editing on that) and suddenly notice it was all for naught. Gah! Maybe some strange URL or page content or page size kills it, who knows? mendel 20:43, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

In that case
I guess I just wasn't paying attention. 03:38, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

spam filter workaround
Why didn't I think of that... move the page, edit it, then move it back (don't think the spam filter blocks page moves). Brilliant! &mdash;Dr Ishmael 23:40, 3 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I wouldn't move them back - the users don't have any hope of editing them in that slashed state. mendel 23:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Duh. 8P &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 00:38, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, and in case you missed it on the RC (and for posterity): thanks for helping out with the XHTML icon code and also fixing my DIV error on Non-orphaned articles‎! mendel 00:46, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * No problem! I just thought of a suggestion for the XHTML template, actually, but I'll leave the comment over there.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 00:59, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Good idea! Done! mendel 01:28, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Wiki Status (¬_¬)
You forgot to remind me that I am valuable xP-- - (Talk /Contribs ) 12:04, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm unsure what the proper etiquette is: does the more recent member remind the "older" one, or vice versa? --mendel 14:04, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Just incase i failed to convey my sarcasm across t'internet again, i was joking. In an ideal society nobody tells anybody they are valuable since its patronising and annoying to the point where you want to punch the person who said it, however cynicism is frowned upon so generally speaking it's older members reminding newer ones, along with such painful rhetoric as "Hi there valued contributor" and, as on my first talkpage, "Thankyou for your cool input". But yeah, t'was just joking :)--[[Image:Cobalt6.jpg|50x19px]] - (Talk /Contribs ) 18:11, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Ha, I'm better at deadpan than you, then! "Proper etiquette", I thought that was a giveaway for sure. ;-) I think I had that actually done to me by someone who wrote something along the line of "I'm writing this because of GW:YAV", and that sounds slightly insulting: "you only have value because the policy says so (if not, you'd be scum to me)." I'm sure it wasn't meant that way, though, or I misunderstood.
 * What other rites of seniority are there, then? Having your talk on more than 10 people's watchlists? Do admins count double? --mendel 22:39, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I try to ignore the wikidrama.. I wasnt involved in the Felix vs R and Banj at all! :o &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 15:10, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * xD, sorry i missed that :P I think that some people seem to perceive number of archives as some kind of status symbol (I have 3 - is that good? probably not), general talkpage activity might be another. I guess obviously sysop/bcratism is a right of seniority, despite people's insistence to the contrary. As for having your talkpage on peoples watchlists, is there even a way to find out who is watching a particular page (short of asking, obv :P)?--[[Image:Cobalt6.jpg|50x19px]] - (Talk /Contribs</B> ) 09:47, 5 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Post controversial content, see who replies. You need a good knowledge of which buttons to push for which people to get reliable results, and even then they might just have been watching Recent Changes.
 * I'm going to fill my archive 'til my PC can't handle the size. --mendel 12:49, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I consider it quite impressive how long I've been here, in comparison to the size of my talkpage. Lord of all tyria 12:59, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You probably have to relate that to the number of edits somewhat. --mendel 13:10, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Let's see then...

(I'm taking the liberty to add the Bytes columns to this table. (mendel 17:44, 5 June 2008 (UTC))
 * Conclusion: Number of edits has no direct correlation to talk page activity, but characteristics of the user can be inferred from the data. LoaT is a lurker.  Mendel is new.  Cobalt doesn't really contribute much.  Warwick wins at wikidrama.  I am the least controversial person on the wiki (2 years, 8k edits, and only 1 archive?  Yeah. :P ).  Hooray for scientific reasoning!  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:02, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Builds section stole contributions from me. /sadface. Lord of all tyria 15:08, 5 June 2008 (UTC)


 * You lost 496 Contribs due to deletions so far, Loat :P --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  15:11, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I lost like, 700 mainspace contribs from deletions :p  Light   Kitty   15:12, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You dont even have 700 contribs :p. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 15:14, 5 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Contribs as an anon, much? --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  15:14, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * what I was gonna say ;)  Light   Kitty   15:15, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Its a conspiricy! ;O &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 15:16, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm waiting for a redirect to appear for a GW-user page to Lightkitty. Makes sense for a 700+ edit user.
 * Anyway, I added byte counts (edit page - copy& paste everything into editor) to the table - feel free to add yourself if you aren't on the table yet, if it's popular I'll make a page of it. I hope that my bad ratio is indeed "new user syndrome". That said, I think "number of talk page archives" is indeed a status symbol in some circles. As is "number of user boxes", of course. --mendel 17:44, 5 June 2008 (UTC)


 * "Cobalt doesn't really contribute much" Plah! I beg to differ! Cobalt just didnt contribute much in his first few months, as such number of edits divided by number of months on wiki doesen't provide a very impressive figure (I also lost some to deletions), but i usually check the wiki atleast 2/3 times a day - i would consider myself to be fairly "active" anyways. I also did an event thing - that must count for something :P Also, a rough count gives me approx. 50 userboxes - TEH STATUS! (or perhaps not) - maybe we should count number of userspace pages/total size in bytes of userspace and/or position in special:Mostlinked/number of links to user created stuff. Still, interesting data, perhaps we can plot "The Maui Effect" on a graph :P--[[Image:Cobalt6.jpg|50x19px]] - (<font color="Blue">Talk </B>/<font color="Green">Contribs</B> ) 18:19, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

If you wanted to measure user activity, you'd have to get the Contributions list and find an average number of bytes per edit, multiply that with edits made. It's a bit hard to get reliable data from the main/non-main ratio, as the Dr has removed numerous redlinks from Userspace (I've been working that as well). Size of Userspace and Mostlinked can be gamed - May had her bot create over 300 pages that link to her userpage and talk page. It's still be hard to figure out how useful the edits actually are. --mendel 20:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

<3
Lol, I forgot to thank you for fixing my userpage :D. --<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="red">Hel <font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="yellow">llb <font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="green">rin <font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="black">ger 22:50, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I just got lucky that you're not Gigathrash. ;-) --mendel 22:58, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol. --<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="red">Hel <font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="yellow">llb <font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="green">rin <font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="black">ger 23:06, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

The subject stays the same (Tic TOC)
You can force a TOC by mashing in, or you can force-hide it with. Just a reminder (as per "TOC popped up -> named first section "Description"") --- -- (s)talkpage  10:33, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I know. But the first section won't be listed in the TOC (and won't have an edit link) if it doesn't have a heading, so the heading was needed anyway.
 * I have more of a problem on my talk page. It is ok for the TOC to appear when it does, but if I don't have a section header above the archive, it pops up in the archive box. So it's either have a permanent TOC on the page, or a section above the box - both not optimal solutions. Will the  appear wherever  is written on the page? Only the first occurence. What's community consensus on editing section headings on talk pages? Is it ok if I do it on my own page? Would make the archive more useful. --mendel 10:56, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * If I'd place here, the TOC would appear here, too :P --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]--  (s)talkpage  11:00, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * No, it won't (unless the preview lies). Not "too". It appears wherever the first occurrence of is on the page, and only there. Since I don't have that code at the top,you could get the TOC down to here, but it wouldn't be at the top any more. If I had  at the top of the page, you can add it down here all you want, there'll just be a blank. At least it works that way on firefox 2. --mendel 11:06, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Ino. Dunno why I typed "too" behind the sentence, as I knew only 1 TOC would occur >.< I'm an idiot tbh. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  11:10, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * NP, any thoughts on editing section headers? --mendel 11:23, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Don't give a damn, actually. The subject stays the same.... --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]--  (s)talkpage  11:35, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * You know I had to, now, right? ;-) --mendel 11:56, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yup. But, honestly, it's not like the starting post has a whole different meaning now :P --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  12:09, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Page Title Doctoring
"Watch Yourself!". Just a reminder of an archived discussion :) --- -- (s)talkpage  22:12, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It doesn't work that way - all that can be changed is upper to lowercase, if you made the changed title into an internal link you'd still get to the same page, so it can't be used to mislead (although I admit I tried to, and had it worked, the discussion you cited would have applied). BUt really all users that want to have a lowercase username canhave that on their userpage, and that is nice. --mendel 22:34, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The magic word is much more "friendly" than the &lt;div> overlays that Warwick and others were using.  This actually changes the text that gets displayed at the top of the article, instead of placing new text over it, so that it is guaranteed to not disrupt anything else on the page.  Also, like mendel said, you can't actually change the article name, only how it is displayed.  See here and here for explanation.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 22:51, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Didn't know what it could and couldn't do, so I just brought up something similar, so you wouldn't be flamed about it. Prevention above remedy, amirite? :P --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  14:09, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I noticed ("I admit I tried to"), so thanks. --mendel 15:14, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Templates
if you;re going to keep making these weird templates, make sure they are fully documented and categorized. Because they are starting to look like a whole lot of gibberish. &mdash;<font color=#ff44aa>♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 02:31, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll try to remember that. --mendel 15:21, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Remember that because you have placed your templates in mainspace, they shouldn't use first person and try to avoid sending users to wikipedia to explain it. You should be able to explain it simply enough yourself. Otherwise, the documentation is lacking. &mdash;<font color=#ff44aa>♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 00:37, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Which template are you referring to? I thought mine were better documented than the average Template on here. --mendel 14:00, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Unyielding Aura
I double-checked, and there is a period where you added one. Just fyi, since your comment implied that you hadn't actually checked. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 15:34, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you, I don't have GW open atm. And thanks for endorsing the coding forum, I expect the others (PanSola etc.) will see it via the community portal. --mendel 15:38, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup after Maybot
Are you finished working on that now? Your comments on the User and User talk namespaces imply that while there might be more to fix, you're not planning on doing any more with them. I'd like to do the final run of the build bot soon, so please let me know if you do plan to do any more work on that. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 04:23, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * There is more to fix on User:Talk, but I've been putting it off because I didn't have the gumption to tackle the AWB bug that prevented me doing those. I'm going to attempt those in the next 24 hours. If you don't want to wait for me you can do those yourself, of course - I can email you the page list if you want, but it should be clear from my description on the project page. Is there anything that the type of templates should be rewritten to? So far I've just been reverting those when they were damaged. --mendel 08:48, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Revert them, my script knows how to handle them. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 14:55, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Nice
I just wanted to complement you on your diplomacy, sophistication in public and general knack for codes and the way things work. So um... keep up the good work! lol. &mdash; Powersurge360 Violencia  23:04, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Diplomacy? You must not have read my summary on the Doghouse thread.... but thank you!--mendel 23:17, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The disturbing thing is that few people compliment me on my humour, which means that it's either a) far too dry to get noticed or b) not funny. --mendel 23:30, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
 * lol, I did, but I can recognize a joke. Besides, it's not so bad dating someone who's vaguely neurotic, keeps things interesting. &mdash; Powersurge360 Violencia  01:35, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Flechette
There is your evidence :P, I mean, I didn't do anything o_o --   I~sk8   (T/C) 19:36, 17 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you, much obliged. You're doing that just to keep me from doing a RfA, I'm sure... ;-D --mendel 19:47, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * LOL, not at all... I had to check to see if I could view revisions without undeleting, which I can, though it only appears as code, and not gui. And I would most likely support you if you were to have an RfA, as I think you are a great contributor.  -- [[Image:Isk8.png]]   I~sk8   (T/C) 19:52, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Got to keep thanking you... thank you. I have no need to be admin. --mendel 19:58, 17 June 2008 (UTC)