User talk:Gravewit

Epoch to 08/25/2006

8/26/2006 to 11/19/2006

See user page.

:P
Sorry to sully your shiney freshly cleaned user page with a complaint but can you take out the 'F' word on your user page? There's a strong anti swearing ideal held by a lot of us (you can do a search for a swear word, you won't find many) and it makes hanging out here more pleasant than most forums. So you might have screwed up, stuffed up, mucked up, buggered up or even ****ed up, but you didn't F-up! --Xasxas256 20:40, 19 November 2006 (CST)


 * I... can't do that. I'm a grown-up. I use grown up words. I didn't bugger up at all. There's only one way to convey what happened, and it is with the prodigious use of the most versatile word in the english language. It's not directed at anyone, it's not aimed at causing a problem with anyone. It is just a word, and one that just so happens to be perfect for the circumstances. Gravewit 14:05, 20 November 2006 (CST)


 * Well I find that disappointing, basically everybody else on the site has decided that we're not going to use foul language because it makes it is unpleasant, regardless as to whom or what it's directed at. I've worked at dozens of different places unloading shipping containers where you'll find some pretty rough language but having more recently been working in numerous schools, I'd have to say the place that I hear the most swearing is the school playground. "Adult" language has nothing to do with being older, it's frowned upon by many of the editors here because swearing never helps an argument. Hey I'm not opposed to swearing, when I'm with mates, sure, no worries and let's be honest, swearing is apparently Australia's greatest selling point! But my experience is that our "keep the language clean" informal policy works well, I find that the forums with the most swearing are invariably the ones that are the most distasteful communities to be a part of, with constant fighting and personal attacks.


 * I've heard that audio clip listing all the great ways the F word can be used but that's rubbish that it's the only way to describe what happened. I don't hear any swearing at my current office job because there's a time and place, we're trying to create a wiki as professionally as possibly here. It's your call of course but it looks bad to me when the user page of the head honcho drops the F word. Why can't you just go back to hating dogs! --Xasxas256 18:48, 20 November 2006 (CST)


 * Are you serious? You want to enforce some sort of policy on a person's language on their own talk page? That is bullshit. Yep, I could have used "ludicrous" in place of "bullshit", but it wouldn't have quite the same effect would it? Strong language exists for a reason: to express oneself strongly. You may choose to use different words, but you shouldn't be trying to tell others what words they can use. -- James Sumners 22:20, 20 November 2006 (CST)


 * There's no policy to enforce, it's an informal understanding amoungst users. It was but mearly a suggestion and an explanation of my views, if Gravewit decides to ignore it that's fine. The GuildWiki is not a moderated forum, not language wise anyway, nobody will remove posts talk/discussion page posts because of language but foul language drags the place down in my opinion. Your use of the word "bullshit" does your argument no favours, even when used as an example. Again that's just my view. --Xasxas256 22:31, 20 November 2006 (CST)


 * Groundbreaking changes on Gamewikis (Meta!), and all you care about is the use of "fuck"? Sorry, but all I can say here is: "Only in America!" Let's ignore the real issues; as long as we're political correct we're safe. Nobody cares (or should I say: gives a fuck?) what the lyrics of a song actually say, they can be all controversial and offensive if you read between the lines, as long as it isn't said openly nobody cares. But woe if somebody uses a no-no-word, then all hell breaks loose! When I watch American TV (MTV etc.) I find all the BEEEEEPs nothing but ridiculous. But they don't censor songs like U + Ur Hand, which is VERY explicit, if you understand what the lyrics are about. But the words "wank" or "jerk/jack off" don't appear in the lyrics, so everything is fine and dandy. /me shakes head. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 03:29, 21 November 2006 (CST)


 * I'm not entirely sure what you're saying Tetris but honestly I just though it was a little distasteful having the F word on Gravewit's page...that's it. As for the massive changes...I just want things to work, you guys can argue who "owns" the GuildWiki, the legalities of mirrors, greater transperancy on the money side, whatever, me, I've already given my thoughts on the performance of the GuildWiki and I'm just happy it's all working again.


 * So that's fine, go nuts, laugh all you want. I'm just disappointed that a long time servant like Xeeron leaves and just two, just two of us bother to say goodbye to him. So laugh it up, swear all you want, Xeeron isn't one of the people involved in the original wikis coming together. He's just a contributor, let him go. You've just lost one long time user and you might just be about to lose another, who cares, plenty more where they came from isn't there? --Xasxas256 03:41, 21 November 2006 (CST)


 * Huh? What does Xeeron leaving have to do with the use of the F word? Things like Xeeron leaving is what I had in mind when I talked about "the real issues" that we should talk about. To me, the use of a swearword is total peanuts compared to that. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 03:56, 21 November 2006 (CST)


 * I can appreciate Xasxas' point. I personally don't swear very often. Equally, though, neither do I intentionally avoid swear words, nor do I know of any informal policy to avoid swearing in talk pages. But I would appreciate being pointed to any examples!


 * Honestly, Tetris, I don't think your contribution above was particularly sympathetic. For a start, what the hell do you mean by "Only in America!"? You know Xasxas is Australian, right? I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that Gravewit try to refrain from swearing in what is fairly close to an official statement on the recent server situation. While I wouldn't have bothered myself I don't think that Xasxas should be chastised for doing so.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 07:11, 21 November 2006 (CST)


 * Xasxas isn't American?? Damn, there goes my stereotype! ;) Nah, seriously, I did know it, somewhere deep inside, but I forgot until Fryen pointed it out to me. Xasxas hit a sore spot in me, and my words came out harsher than they should have, and I apologize for that. However, I still think the priorities are a little off when swearwords are the first and so far only thing that is commented on in message that hopefully marks a milestone for this wiki. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 07:50, 21 November 2006 (CST)


 * I'm not sure why it's my fault that nobody else has said anything regarding the server/meta prior to my comment. Besides, before to the new server went in I had my say and afterward I gave thanks. Do I have to wait for someone to comment on the servers/meta before I'm allowed to comment on my "trivial" matter? I'm still sad to see Xeeron leave, which happened while you guys were arguing about who owns the wiki, lack of accountability, fiscal side, mirrors, server performance etc. I mean sure Xeeron left because of those very things but I feel very much like an outsider when you guys start talking about the "original" wiki members etc. Having good servers is important, absolutely, but having good contributors is just as important too, you need both. Amoungst all the chest beating about getting server access, database dumps etc. I felt that a valuable member was slipping through the cracks, you can replace a server but you can't replace someone like Xeeron.


 * Finally how on earth did you think I'm a Yank! I didn't live in the country for nothing, I use the word "mate" all the time! Coupled with copious "no worries", how could you forget! I don't get to chat with you that much Tetris, probably due to the time zone differences, your posts have probably been already replied to in many cases, hence I rarely directly reply to you (and vice versa). Well it's been an interesting night, are we cool now? If so then cheers big ears ;) --Xasxas256 08:25, 21 November 2006 (CST)


 * G'day and no worries to you too, mate! I do know that you're Australian, really. How could I not know? You're one of the few people who edit in the time frame when the Americans have already gone to bed, and the Europeans aren't awake yet, so when I get online I see your name in the recent changes a lot. I seem to recall from some talk that you're from Melbourne, or am I getting you mixed up with some other aussie? Did I mention that I've been to Australia? Infact I'm wearing a tie right now that I bought in Sidney! :)
 * I, too, am sad that Xeeron went /afw, but as far as I understood him he didn't "leave". He just stopped contributing temporarily, but made clear that would return when things have improved. Based on recent improvements I'm confident that he'll be back soon. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 09:44, 21 November 2006 (CST)


 * This whole thing seems a bit over the top to me. Anyway, the reason why I didn't post on Xeerons talk page was that he clearly stated he didn't want to make a big thing about his vacation/leaving. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 10:13, 21 November 2006 (CST)

Re:Note
Gravewit, I just wanted to let you know that much of my faith in you has been restored by the fact that you acknowledged that things have been "mishandled" in the past. I hope it doesn't sound patronizing when I say that the sole fact that you openly and clearly admit a mistake has doubled my respect for you. It's something that many people would never do, especially when "under fire". I see it as a sign of strength, not weakness. This was the first - and most important - step in the right direction. Starting the Meta was the second step, and I trust that more steps will follow to ensure that things improve in future, towards more transparency and democracy on Gamewikis. In a spirit like this I'm confident that GuildWiki and Gamewikis will continue to prosper. -- 07:50, 21 November 2006 (CST)


 * Just what Tertis said. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 10:13, 21 November 2006 (CST)


 * It does take a strong person to admit when he/she was wrong. Adding to what Tetris said, I think this mishap opened a lot of eyes to see that things weren't as they should be and that with this, thing's should and I hope will continue to improve. I think it's hilarous that people actually threatened the guy. Guess some just don't know how to even use the hotkeys without GuildWiki and although threats aren't very civilized, that is kinda flattering that people need GuildWiki so much.
 * The Meta is a great idea to keep users informed of what goes on around gamewikis and behind the scenes. I'm guessing the current server specs will be placed on it, but I'm curious to know what Phil was running before the hardware upgrade. &mdash; Gares 11:33, 21 November 2006 (CST)

Contacting
I was wronlgy accused of vandalising and was confused rainith wihich i am thankful for explained this i visited his user page and it said to contact you here i am contacting you sincerely, Naf :)


 * This is a bug in the wiki software. You are not really banned as you were able to post here. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 01:56, 13 December 2006 (CST)

Spambot
Theres a spambot at the phpBB forum. Is it a good idea to even have that now we have the meta? Same purpose &mdash; Skuld 13:36, 6 December 2006 (CST)

User page
Would you by chance know how to create a user page? The Necromator &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.80.138.85 (contribs).


 * After creating a user name for the wiki (see the 'log in' link in the upper right corner) and log in with your brand new user, you can find your own user page by clicking your name in the upper right corner. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 01:56, 13 December 2006 (CST)

GW gold ads: The never-ending story
What do you think is going to happen first? My personal guess is: Duke Nukem will win! ;)
 * Duke Nukem Forever is released.
 * ArenaNet add an auction house to Guild Wars.
 * GuildWiki manages to get rid of the GW gold ads.

Sorry to pester you with this yet again. My question is: Are you even trying? -- 08:47, 14 December 2006 (CST)


 * We don't get approval on google ads. They put them up, and we can turn them off if they're bad, but that's all we can do. I've been working with the people at adbrite.com to try and use them, where I *do* have veto power over the ads, before they start appearing. Sadly, the adbrite ads just aren't making enough on their own yet to support our server costs. Hopefully as time goes on they'll get increasing until they can. Gravewit 02:00, 19 December 2006 (CST)

Fansite status
In GuildWiki talk:Fansite status your last reply was:
 * "Have appealed to Gaile with the points noted above, as well as a plea for further guidance. Will post next communication here."

I know it's almost 1/2 year ago, but I'd still like to know. Was there any further communication? Did Gaile reply? -- 02:31, 3 January 2007 (CST)

OblivioWiki stuff
Heya Gravewit, this is regarding OblivioWiki and wasn't sure whether to post this in the php forums (which would seem most logical, but it's not frequented by many and I don't know if you check it out), or here. But since your most recent reply here was December, I'll put it here. There are two two small things on my mind.

First, while editing at OblivioWiki, none of the toolbar buttons show up (the buttons you can press for bold, italics, etc). Instead, it actually writes it out "Bold text|Italic text|Internal link|" etc. Clicking on it still results in the intended effect and I never use them anyway, but that's just something that could be fixed.

Second, can you remove the stat on the bottom of all the articles that tells you how many times an article was accessed? GuildWiki doesn't show that and I'd also prefer not to know at OblivioWiki. Thanks, -- theSpectator talk 17:52, 5 January 2007 (CST)


 * How long had the buttons been like that? Since the new server arrived?  --Fyren 01:20, 6 January 2007 (CST)


 * The buttons seem ok to me when I head over to http://oblivion.gamewikis.org/. (running IE6 atm : --Xasxas256 01:29, 6 January 2007 (CST)


 * Thanks for removing the article viewed stats. And yes, the buttons had been like that since the new server/update thing. However, now the buttons are working fine (I'm on Firefox 2.0). Thanks very much, Gravewit! -- theSpectator talk 16:10, 6 January 2007 (CST)


 * Cough. --Fyren 18:44, 6 January 2007 (CST)


 * Oh, sorry, I wasn't sure who did it. Thanks for fixing it, Fyren! -- theSpectator talk 18:47, 6 January 2007 (CST)

Suggestion
I have a suggestion that may allow such features as the gwBBcode (rollover content) to be implimented without affecting site bandwith. I own the gameinspire.com domain and would be willing to contribute my bandwith for a subdomain like gw.gameinspire.com that could act as a mirror of gw.gamewikis.org and lighten the load for all aspects of the site.

It could at least hold a database of skills/items from here that would feed the rollover content.

Gem suggested I ask you. What do you think? Muzikmon 19:45, 6 February 2007 (CST)

My new account
I just created a new account and, as I was editing my userpage, I was blocked. I am not sure exactly why you did this, or if, since I use AOL, it was my IP range, but if you look at my page on Wikipedia,, you can see that what I am least is a vandal. I hope you can unblock me! --Lurio Mystras 12:20, 14 March 2007 (CDT)
 * The fact that you can post in this talk page indicates that you are not currently blocked. It may have been an erroneous notice.  If you can provide more information (an email link is available on my user page) I can look into it for you.  Please provide your current IP if known; although, if AOL, the next time you login it should clear as well.
 * Another option is to contact User:Fyren, who has more access to research issues. Gravewit isn't very active on the wiki at this point, so you may also want to look at GW:ADMIN for other contact names. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 12:22, 14 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Who does it say blocked you and what is the message given? There is a caching bug that sometimes brings up old stuff &mdash; Skuld 12:38, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

GameWikis metawiki
http://meta.gamewikis.org/wiki/Special:Recentchanges <-- spambots roaming free &mdash; Skuld 15:48, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I took it down rather than installing the captcha. We haven't used it.  --Fyren 19:09, 4 April 2007 (CDT)

Data dumps and the builds section
Is there any way I can create a data dump of the builds section as an archive before it's deleted? Thanks, &mdash; Ebany Salmonderiel (T•C•[ M]) 14:46, 29 April 2007 (CDT)

Still trying to reach you
would be great to have a phone number... tried you by email and skype a couple times this week, with no response. I think I'm in your spam filter at this point :-) Gil
 * So this is the Gil that now owns Guildwiki o-o &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by The Imperialist (contribs).

Disappointed in your secretiveness
Not that I believe you give two hoots what I or any other peon thinks, but I am disappointed in how little you value your community. So little, in fact, that you are ready to sell us without so much a word of notice that you were negotiating a price for us with Wikia. I hope you at least had the sense to make a shiny dollar; I would hate to learn that you sold us for pennies. BftP 13:47, 12 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Seconded. I never took much interest in the metadiscussions and policy on GuildWiki, and neither did I donate money, but I HATE being ripped off and laughed in the face for contributing hundreds of hours and thousands of edits. Gravewit can play dumb and apologize all day long for how he underestimated the community reactions about the move, and he can say "lolz no it wasnt for the $$$" until the fucking sun burns out, but I know that 6 (7?) figures worth of compensation would soothe MY pain of looking like a jackass. Gravewit is already the winner, whatever happens to GuildWiki. --[[Image:Roland_icon.png]]Roland of Gilead (talk) 16:27, 20 September 2007 (CDT)

Hoping to ride this one out too?
Phil, I would like you to respond to the issues raised in the move's talk page. I find it extremely convenient that until I showed up on that page, you were active responding to all inquiries until I raised the big issues and poof, Mr.Active disappears, yet again. This has been your M.O. whenever I have raised doubts about your actions and motivations, doubts that turned out to be dead on and completely true.

However, there is a small problem this time... This time, your actions/inactions have legal rammifications. If you do not engage us in our complaints, listen to us, I will go after you legally. I know for a fact that you owe me $50 that you took under the guise of a donation to a non-profit and then used to fund a personal commercial endeavor. If you want me to drag your sorry butt to a small-claims court somewhere or start a law suit to stop the purchase on Wikia's side, then go ahead and keep ignoring the community. If you want this to get REALLY ugly, it's your call. You cannot profit from my contributions, I prohibit you to and you must surrender back to me my donation as well as my share in any profit you made off of my contributions. You do NOT want to be served with legal papers and have your sale stopped. However, if this is what I must do to grab your attention, then by all means, I shall. --Karlos 14:38, 12 September 2007 (CDT)


 * This should have been taken outside of the wiki. The way I read it, Karlos' post is a violation of No personal attacks where it says threats of legal action is a personal attack. 76.104.218.101 09:54, 13 September 2007 (CDT)


 * This is not a threat of legal action over wiki edits. This is over financial contributions proven in the wiki ledger. And this note to him here is simply stating that I DID let him know that I want my money back so he does not claim ignorance. I'm just setting the stage for future action. If you think I broke NPA then you're basically abusing NPA. I have every right to demand my donations back and Phil's "no response to any citicism" approach leaves me no choice. I need to document this for any legal proceedings. --Karlos 11:16, 13 September 2007 (CDT)


 * Just because you have a reason/rationale behind your personal attack, does not make it any less of one. No personal attacks applies in ALL wiki actions, not just where you would like it to be used.  Before you accuse others of abusing the policy, please take a moment to look at your own actions as an outsider would.  The drama that you are raising is not helping the wiki as a whole, and neither is setting up this talk page as a tableau from which to launch a legal case.  Like the previous user said, please figure out your differences privately, hopefully in such a way as to not engender a Civil War that will make the Guild Wiki less of a valuable resource.  Anything less is childish and petty.  --Lucielle 12:36, 13 September 2007 (PST)
 * Deal with the real issue at hand tbh. Karlos hasn't done anything illegal. - [[Image:Candle.jpg|12px]] Krowman (talk • contribs) 22:02, 13 September 2007 (CDT)


 * If Karlos is breaking policy, then the policy deserves to be broken. I believe the current sysops will understand, given the ridiculous circumstances we're currently in. &mdash;Tanaric 22:09, 13 September 2007 (CDT)


 * Lucielle, a talk page squabble will not endanger the wiki in any way whatsoever. Most users won't even be aware that the wikia move discussions are taking place in several pages on the wiki. Given the circumstances, pushing for NPA isn't going to resolve anything. -- Ab.Er.Rant [[Image:User Aberrant80 Sig.png]] (msg Aberrant80) 00:12, 17 September 2007 (CDT)


 * I will say this: A wiki policy that allows Gravewit to collect money from people as donations, then use them for his own profit then disallows these users from threatening him with legal action if he does not return their money is, to me, a flawed and broken policy serving those exploiting the community. As with the GWWiki's user page policy, I hold no regard for such policies and go ahead and take my badge over it. You ALWAYS temper a policy against what it's trying to achieve, not just flaunt the letter of the law at other users. This man scammed people, he took money and up until this threat of legal action was planning on riding off into the sunset with that money. You can't wave policy pages at those who were wronged and let the scammer get away. That's just messed up, Sorry, Lucielle. You'll get no compromise from me on this. --Karlos 11:37, 17 September 2007 (CDT)

An Open Letter
To: Christian Phillip "Gravewit" Nelson

From: Cory "Tanaric" Petosky

Phil,

Early May, 2005, you started a website called the GuildWiki. Simultaneously, I started a website called the Community Guild Wars Wiki. Both of us hosted these wikis on our personal webspace, doing the best we could for free. Both of us had only a handful of contributors. When I learned of your website, I offered to merge my wiki with yours, so that our respective communities could collaborate in a single place. This merger was very successful -- you more than doubled your content, and the once-segmented Guild Wars wiki community became unified in a single place.

Shortly after, another contributor, Martin Lightbringer, purchased guildwiki.org and donated it to the site. Around the same time, many of us, including myself, Karlos, and a long list of contributors whose Wikinames I don't know, donated money to this venture. It was widely held to be a community project -- you once said something to the effect of, "I'm curious if a community-edited strategy guide can exist solely by community donations and effort. It'd be incredibly awesome if it could."

Our participation greatly grew. Most of the original founders of the wiki, including myself, became sysops. You stopped accepting donations because, as you told it to me, the GuildWiki had so much money that accepting any more donations would be wrong. The plan at that point was to open up donations again later, when the need arose.

This plan changed over time. gamewikis.org was purchased. You, Nunix, and I began discussing privately how to spin this into a commercial venture. We began discussing sponsorship deals with Pirates of the Burning Sea; we would be their official wiki and they would pay us. This deal did not come to anything. Nevertheless, we still intended to make GameWikis profitable. You once promised me a paycheck for the role of "Community Manager." This, again, never happened.

At this point, the management of the GuildWiki became incredibly secretive. I was kept out of the loop -- and so was everybody else. Eventually, I publicly campaigned against you and took a 45 day wikibreak. We have not spoken since this.

I came back because I cared about the community. I cared about this resource. More importantly, I caught wind of the approaching ArenaNet wiki, and I intended to be grandfathered over -- I know quite a bit about wiki and community management now, thanks to the GuildWiki, and I wanted to make sure the Official Wiki started on the right foot. I think the community there succeeded, and I hope that I contributed positively to that.

It was the opening of the Official Wiki that really opened my eyes about you, though. Long before the official wiki opened, you, I, Nunix, and one other person (sorry, I can't remember who now) participated in a conference call with Gaile Gray and Mike O'Brian about hosting the GuildWiki with them. Ultimately, our license caused the problem -- they, as a commercial entity, couldn't host the GuildWiki under the by-nc-sa license. It's curious that, all of the sudden, Wikia, a similar commercial entity, is able to host us.

It's even more interesting that, around that time, you told me privately that GuildWiki ads netted us enough to not only pay monthly bandwidth bills in excess of $200, but they gave us enough to save up for a third server. Fyren added that server to our farm when, under my recommendation, he was given server administrator access.

When the official wiki came out, you publicly stated that you were losing significant amounts of money every month on hosting GuildWiki, even though at the time of the third server addition, you were profiting. You never added me as paid staff, despite your stated intention to do so. You never spun GameWikis into anything self-sustaintly profitable.

In fact, you've taken back or broken every promise you've made the community, and instead conveniently sold the whole enterprise at a healthy profit. And for what? Fyren has done all server administration for the longest time, and Nunix did most of it before that. I handled all community issues on the GuildWiki -- Bishop handled them all on HammerWiki, and other contributors did all the work on the other two GameWikis. Even at our founding, you contributed little in terms of content.

You owe Nunix, Fyren, and I a significant amount of money. You owe the donors their donations. You owe the community your thanks, and your respect. And you owe us all an apology.

Sincerely, Cory "Tanaric" Petosky 21:41, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

P.S.: Please consider this my formal resignation from the position you never ended up paying me for.

Karlos, Tanaric
I will be responding to both of you, this week. I promise. I have not disappeared, nor am I riding anything out safely anywhere. I am reading everything that gets written, and I will respond. I'm just not choosing my words flippantly, as I might have in the past, because people are angry enough. Gravewit 22:45, 16 September 2007 (CDT)
 * There are other angry users out there as well. - [[Image:Candle.jpg|12px]] Krowman (talk • contribs) 22:51, 16 September 2007 (CDT)
 * How many are prominent members of the community working in other respects, who were also involved in the earlier formation of Guild Wiki into what it is today, as well as being financial contributors? It's not that other members of the community aren't important, but that Karlos and Tanaric are in more unique positions.  Mind you, I'm as cynical as ever, and I'm sure the past few days of silence were to plan the course of action through correspondence with Wikia figures, but I'm trying not to be unfair about it. Merengue 22:59, 16 September 2007 (CDT)


 * I can hardly wait, Gravewit. One small thing you need to know about. I want my $50 scaled to size. If the size of the establishment at the time of my $50 donation was $500, and you made $5000 from the Wikia sale, then I don't expect back just $50, I expect $500. By revealing this as a for-profit institution, you turned my donation into an investment. So, I expect to be paid my full share. Just putting this out there for you to take to your wikia legal advisors. --Karlos 11:40, 17 September 2007 (CDT)

GW Gold Ad
another one... Image:Ebany GW Gold Ad.jpg
 * Now that Gravewit has sold the gamewikis.org domain name to Wikia, he's no longer the one who can address the gold advertisement issues. Although, I'm not sure who the correct party is that can address those issues now. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 13:27, 17 September 2007 (CDT)


 * Actually, Wikia has a special deal with google, where they let them block all ads with certian words in them. So gold ads shouldn't be a problem. Gravewit 19:43, 17 September 2007 (CDT)

New info on the move
I thank you for the new information. To me personally it was more about everyone getting out the same way, without loosing or making money. Not about paying the community for their work. I hope the community will find a better way to use the money then just spread it out to everyone.&mdash; ├ A ratak ┤  13:36, 19 September 2007 (CDT)

This is not an adequate solution
Phil,

Judging from the FFXI wiki purchase, the cash portion of your buyout is only about one-eighth of the total sale -- the rest is in stock options. Since you've given us the "majority" of the cash portion, I'll be generous and call that three-quarters, though I'm forced to assume it's closer to 51%. If I can still do math, that means you've kicked back, oh, three thirty-secondths of the total buyout back to the community -- something like 9.4%.

You did not do 90.6% of the work for this site, so I do not consider this to be an adequate solution.

Cory

&mdash;Tanaric 13:59, 19 September 2007 (CDT)


 * I agree with Tanaric in spirit, however, that's still a very large sum of cash...Yeah, you can say it's just a tiny %, that it's "small potatoes" compared to the rest, but still...this is better than I expected, namely, nothing. It may be a small gesture, but it's a start, Gravewit (and you too, Wikia folks). [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 21:27, 19 September 2007 (CDT)


 * I got my donation money back today, so even though I don't think we're quite at a solution yet, I'm going to withhold any more vehement criticism until I see how this plays out. Progress is definitely being made. &mdash;Tanaric 00:08, 20 September 2007 (CDT)


 * I hate to be cynical, but that's really not a large sum of cash at all in the scale of things. It's a truly token sum and while it may bring an initial 'wow' because you're viewing it from a personal level where it is important, from a corporate level that's seriously small. In the interests of transparency I think it would be very useful for Gravewit/Wikia to post the entirety of the transfer contract. The chances of this happening are near zero because it would very likely show that Gravewit/Wikia are trying to buy off the community with a token sum while still retaining the majority value transfer to Wikia. Wikia understand that they need Gravewit and must keep terms attractive to him (ie. a substantial value transfer that ultimately can be realised to his bank accounts) and Gravewit is perfectly happy to accept whatever marginal tokens he has to put up for him to gain the larger transaction. This entire deal quite frankly stinks and until complete transparency is in place, I'm going to remain highly skeptical of anything that either Wikia or Gravewit says.
 * $62,000 sounds like a lot but Wikia is clearly giving out far larger sums like it was candy. As Tanaric and others have pointed out, we don't even know 1) what portion of Gravewit's secret compensation that is, and 2) whether the money is even really coming out of his compensation. For all we know, Wikia has simply added $62,000 to the stock options portion of Gravewit's buyout. Or Gravewit is flat-out lying and the money is coming straight from Wikia and not him. At this point, there can be no blind trust of either Gravewit or Wikia. One point of disagreement -I doubt Wikia are very happy with Gravewit at all. They know now that he sold them a wooden nickel. I wonder if that allowed them to sympathize with what the community has put up with. And as others are saying on other talk pages, throwing this money around is certainly a move by Wikia to pacify and distract. — HarshLanguage [[Image:qswearing_small.png|HarshLanguage]] 05:16, 21 September 2007 (CDT)

X
I'm not trying to start some kind of trend of people queuing up and giving you a piece of their mind on your talk page but there are a few things I'd like to say. I haven't weighed in on the Wikia move yet because although I've been following it closely, I haven't had the time to post a response until now. Ages ago (must have almost 2 years ago) I spoke to Michael (Nunix) on IRC about you circa the IE/Firefox controversy when he was defending you against an angry mob, you were laying low until it blows over according to him. (There was a lot more of this to come from you but I didn't know that then). The impression I was left with was that actually you weren't a bad sort of fellow but you'd just made a mistake there. In time I saw you establish Gamewikis and as I understand it, the admirable idea was to have a free wiki repository for game information. Unfortunately it went southward, I remember you started a City of Heroes (I think) wiki but you were not prepared to invest any time in it and just hoped a community would magically spring up and build it for you. Didn't happen.

Look you've added almost nothing to this site for a long time, seems like every time you pop up it's just to plow ahead with something and screw things up. You're unaccountable and unhelpful, every time someone asks Fyren about something which requires info from you, it takes a week for you to get back to him, if you do at all. Fyren's the guy who I feel most sorry for, he's basically done your job and not for any money but for his wonderful community spirit. I'm not interested in the money or the lawsuits, I arrived just after the "big merge", I just feel sorry for the people who've crafted this wiki and sad that we couldn't stop the dire predictions from coming true.

I cannot believe you did the Wikia move this way, you obviously have no compassion or love for this wiki at all. You know what though? I don't even object to the idea of Wikia hosting the servers but to just go ahead with it, without asking anyone else for their input is deplorable. I barely feel like this is/was a community, more like a bunch of misguided slaves who thought they were building something quite special but it was really just a giant statue in the image of a money hungry Pharaoh to later be sold off to the highest bidder. Oddly enough, despite my feeling on the matter I won't resign from my administrative post on the GWiki Wikia, I may not have as much time for this wiki but I will continue to perform my sysop role as best I can, as long as that's what the contributors want. I do not feel that the community should suffer because of some leader's stupidity and greed. That said there's talk of a fork and if it goes ahead I will consider signing up there too. Somewhere back there a while ago I actually think you had the right idea but you're so far from that point now I guess that doesn't matter. You didn't manage to create something enduring and amazing, it happened in spite of you and that's how you're going to be remembered. Final point, you need to update your user page, it still details the last time you screwed us all over, it should detail the current and hopefully final disappointment you've served up the community. --Xasxas256 19:47, 20 September 2007 (CDT)


 * It almost feels like someone's gone through the time and effort to gather people to paint a beautiful mural on a wall, then just as it's about to finish, they let a construction team use the wall to practice using a wrecking ball. I've currently put all my editing on hold, because frankly, I don't know who I'm doing any of this for anymore. I've no doubt that, had it been handled properly and the community agreed to join Wikia, we would have faster servers, probably a lot of extra money to use on the site (maybe raffle off character slots, or some other fun things), and the wiki would be running just as smoothly as before. But the way you handled it, Gravewit, it's just given the community more problems, instead of lessening problems like it should have... --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Ĵĩôřũĵĩ Đēŗāķō.> .cнаt^  22:28, 20 September 2007 (CDT)

So?
Where did you go, Phil? You did not respond to anything I said although you promised you would. I have not received money or responses... Shall I consider you want me to go the lawsuit route? I have already consulted a lawyer and I want to be able to tell him that you have indeed refused to pay back the money and any dividends or offered to pay back anything. As it stands now, I have nothing from you.

You have 3 days to formulate a response. I meet with the lawyer end of this week. Our next correspondence may be in court. --Karlos 08:28, 2 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I have also gone this route. I have emailed Phil privately asking him for a response, and detailing something similar to this, but have also received no response. &mdash;Tanaric 15:34, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

sup man i'm accually going to give you some props
hey man thats cool unlike someof these idiots i dont mind that you gave ownership to wikia, unlike other people the disicion to make this last is awesome like now i KNOW i'll have a way to edit at school or look at it, YAY. and other then that i dont care as long as they dont own any of it. an that they dont censor talk pages or change current policys.orao de seno is not a mexican person he just likes the name. 02:17, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm quite sure that for anyone who is just joining the Wiki, Wikia's probably a good move. Just to note, Orao; people don't particularly mind Wikia here, it's the fact that Gravewit made the sale without letting anyone know that's pissing people off. Kind of a "Oh by the way, I just sold you all for a nice hefty profit, have fun in your new home" situation the older users are in. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> .cнаt^  04:49, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It is my impression that Tanaric actually did mind Wikia, regarding use of advertisements and using GuildWiki to gain more hits for other wikis in their network from which they can earn money. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 23:48, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Alright, perhaps I worded that incorrectly; there are always going to be ones who hate the whole thing, just as there will always be ones that love the whole thing. Generally though, I don't think many people would have made nearly as big a deal over this had Gravewit simply said "hey, it's getting tough to host this site, and Wikia's offered to host for us; what do you guys think?". --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> .cнаt^  03:29, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * My first thought on that would be to ask, "Exactly HOW is it getting tough to host this site?" Money-wise, this site has been profitable for a long time, Gravewit himself said so. Effort-wise, he never tripped over himself keeping the servers up to date or the community running, leaving both jobs to more dedicated people. So, in what way exactly has it become "tough to host"? Gravewit knew very well that these questions would come up, and that he would not be able to answer them in his favour. Doing it the way he did was the only way for him. At the same time, it shows it indeed was all about the money, at least since the ads started making a profit. --[[Image:Roland_icon.png]]Roland of Gilead (talk) 19:09, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

well i think they just want something to bitch about, gravewit owns ALL the adress' here he doesent own the content and neither does wikia, they own THE ADRESS OF THE WEB SITE GEEZZ. the content is still ours.orao de seno is not a mexican person he just likes the name. 22:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * You have no idea what you are talking about. Stop before you make it even more obvious. - Auron 22:43, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It can't be more obvious unfortunately. Readem (talk *contribs ) 23:52, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * And I think calling us "idiots" is a violation of GW:NPA [[Image:PaintballerSig.jpg]] The Paintballer (T/C) 00:16, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Did he really die?
Did he really die? 58.110.137.152 13:57, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Of course not, just some idiot vandal. Besides if he would be dead, I don't reckon some moron would put a note on his userpage that he has died. --[[Image:Progr.jpg]] -- talkpage 13:58, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

hate mail
sorry to hear about it, you sure dont deserve it -24.95.90.161 05:34, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


 * That may be your opinion, but you'd be surprised how many people don't share your outlook on it. Taking a community website and literally selling it out to a corporation without any mention to the people who made the website? I'd say some of those people deserve to complain, at the very least. But this is, for the most part, water under the bridge, and not a subject I should be bringing back up. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> .cнаt^  05:41, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
 * He sold your posts and contributions. Anyone who contributed got their post sold.  The math I did got sold.  I'm moving to the official wiki. StatMan 01:42, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

He's a backstabber. Okay... he stabbed who in the back exactly?
I fail to understand how people, who owe so much to GraveWit/Paul/the-guy-who-is-NOT-dead/etc. can turn around and stab him in the back.

The fact is, he did all the hard work, everyone who gave him money got refunded, out of his pocket. He paid money. He did not get refunded. It seems like a lot of people are willing to let him do work, as long as he does it all, he does it to their liking, and he does nothing else.

He did all the hard work and made one decision - WHICH WAS HIS DECISION TO MAKE - and got constant abuse for it. Someone please turn around and tell me what difference this made to them, apart from a new name the website's unchanged - stop being pathetic.

Sorry to Gravewit, and others who think this is posted in the wrong place, but I don't know a better one for it, it's about this user... the move talk page seemed...overflowing...

One last thing, yes, I know this is yesterdays news, just never heard how this negatively affected somebody. -->Suicidal Tendencie 17:19, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Problem is, a) Fyren did all of the server maintainence work, b) he was getting more than enough from the ads alone- They had enough cash saved from the ads to buy yet another server, c) Martin CS (i think it was?) bought the .gamewikis.org site domain and gave it to them. What he basically did was sell the site. Sure, people who chipped in got paid back, but a fairly huge part of the community didnt want to contribute to wikia- Karlos and Tanaric both contributed to the wiki and its survival finance-wise. GuildWiki didnt NEED the move, Gravewit could maintain it, and Fyren was, afaik, doing most of the maintainence. We owe nothing to Gravewit. He stabbed us all in the back, imo. Wikia is allright, though. Just a little more server lag. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 17:24, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Aha...nothing you're telling me, the noob, that he did nothing for this wiki? I think one of us is seriously confused here... -->Suicidal Tendencie 17:26, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No, I'm not saying anything of the sort. I'm saying that other people did a lot more than he did. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 17:27, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Fine, more precise quote we owe nothing to Gravewit You did say that... oh, and thanx for not rubbing me being new in my face -->Suicidal Tendencie 17:29, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Its true, we owe him nothing now. He basically sold us out to Wikia. Sure, it didnt cause any controversal changes apart from the usernames and a bit of serverside lagg, but lots of people left the wiki when we moved to wikia. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 17:31, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, I should have made this clear before. I do not presume to know anywhere near enough about Tanaric etc. to talk about it, my anger is directed at the average user who, like it or not, has not been affected except for maybe having minor username issues, not permanent either.
 * I don't consider peoples attitude reasonable, and if they choose to leave, that's their arrogance. -->Suicidal Tendencie 17:35, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that he made a fortune off the site. So what?  If someone makes money off the site, that makes it more reliable that the site will stay up, as someone else will be willing to keep making money off it even of the original owner wants out.  For a site to only stay up until some volunteer gets bored with maintaining it is too unstable of an outcome.  Quizzical 17:38, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, thats true, but the point is that there was a lot of suspicion going around Gravewit, and several prominant members left. It didnt help that GWW was there for the leavers to go to either. Opinions are split on this matter, but its mostly died down. Really, you're just picking a scab. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 17:40, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * just picking a scab Probably, but I think it's something that needs to be talked about (better late than never... I hope...) A lot of people who weren't affected were giving him abuse when he didn't deserve it, if I was him after angry e-mail #1 I'd of changed my e-mail and kept the new one under wraps.
 * I think all the fuck Gravewit userboxes should AT LEAST be removed, they help nobody with nothing, it is abuse that has no place on a wiki of any quality. -->Suicidal Tendencie 17:46, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I had almost no effect on the people that only used the wiki or didn't know what was going on "behind the scenes" - it was the long time contributors and those most dedicated in contributing/maintaining/funding that were "stabbed in the back." But yeah, picking a scab. --R.Phalange 17:47, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Suicidal, Skuld says "Suck my balls" to the remove the fuck gravewit userboxes comment. I dont say it, I'm merely the messenger ;p &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 17:49, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Gravewit didn't sell the content, the content is open licensed, you can't sell it. He sold the domain and the traffic and reputation that came with it. And it were the users who built the reputation of the site, linking it on the forums and telling their friends about it. They built the reputation knowing the site wasn't "commercial", and now all the rep they built was turned into money and the site "commercialized". The users who see it the way I describe are pissed off, and I can see why. (I have no opinion either way, I'm new, and I don't know much about wikia). mendel 17:50, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * A paper I wrote on the ethics of the whole thing breaks everything down and covers the legality. I think its a nice summery: User:JediRogue/Ethics. &mdash;♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 17:53, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I love your use of the word 'Volunteer'. Yes, I'm not saying he didn't mess up, he's not denying that either, I'm just saying that I for one still support him, I can't be alone (imo others are staying silent so the abuse he's getting doesn't rub off on them).
 * He should have been in a lot more contact about the idea of it with everyone on the wiki, and I do think it's only fair that those who helped with the day-to-day stuff (e.g. Fyren) should of course get some of the money from the sale. But it's not like Wikia is trying to screw us either. What few will accept is that some very important people (Fyren, etc.) were invaluable to the Wiki, and one of those people is Gravewit.
 * And one thing annoying me is my constant phailing when it comes to signing my comments today. -->Suicidal Tendencie 19:11, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, and one more thing, I think you'll be forced to agree that surely we cannot track down ever user and hand them $00.50 each or something, I think the main people should split the money, privately, in whatever manner they think suitable. -->Suicidal Tendencie 19:18, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The problem is, the entire site's license means no one can make a profit off anything here. That is why Anet made their own wiki instead of buying this one, because it was illegal to sell it. Gravewit sold the site, gave $100-$200 back to whoever donated in the early days, and kept an estimated $60,000 for himself. --Macros 19:34, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Please, stop talking about that which you do not know. Sure, you're a new user, but making judgements based purely on emotional reasons is not ok. The whole thing is over - I myself was not around at this time, hence why I have no opinion on this. Why don't I have an opinion? Because I don't have the facts - facts that can only be experienced by being around at that time and being one of the involved users. Things happened outside of the wiki - those facts we do not know. Hence it's pretty impossible to make a judgement 8 months after the event. --R.Phalange 19:43, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't get it. guildwiki.org wasn't sold (in fact, the server seems to be down - it'd be better to have it redirect at the nameserver level), and if the admins/users had wanted to do so, they could just have aquired new servers and kept operating, without the gamewikis domain. It might be worthy of study to find out what contributed to people not seeing this as a viable option (the cddb community did this when cddb was sold, there is now freedb, but that was sold as well when the volunteers couldn't pay upkeep). The site was paying for itself, the server admins were available, what was keeping them? So who stabbed whom in the back? Or was it Anet with GWW that made it not seem worth the trouble? mendel 23:10, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * ALL of these issues were covered exhaustively in the past and you only have to dig them up to have all your questions answered. It is pages and pages and pages of reading material, which is why most of us choose to explain it away as blithely as possible - it is much too complex a problem to really give a good explanation other than "noob, you don't understand" (which is AGF/NPA/YAV or something infraction, by the way...). Jedi's paper is quite useful as a summary of the whole incident. If you have any further interests for the other materials, then I suggest you look at Wikia Move and all its attached talkpages and subpages. Naturally, there is even more stuff if you go back farther in history, but that is hard to find. You would mostly be scanning the conribs of Gravewit, Tanaric, Fyren, and Karlos. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 23:56, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I actually spent an entire afternoon reading through all that last year, right after I made an account. I must say, if you want the whole picture, you're going to have to budget several days of your time. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 23:59, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, and one more comment: The "Average Joe User" who you accuse of turning traitor on Gravewit probably didn't even know who the heck he was anyways, before the whole issue unfolded. So you can hardly expect them to appreciate what good he did do - the counterweight was just too much.
 * It would make a pretty interesting political disaster movie, I think. Not to be trite or anything. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 00:03, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Basically, what I wrote is my reaction after reading the summary - it is the question that is left open in my mind, that I'd like to have seen addressed in an essay on the ethics of the issue. I'm not going to dig all that up again, I'm just asking for as long as there are easy answers and I am puzzled enough to ask.
 * I'm not accusing Joe User (in fact, I'm defending), I'm talking about why Joe User could have been accusing Gravewit of turning traitor, because he broke an unwritten contract that everything about the site would forever remain noncommercial. (Given that alledgedly $60000+ changed hands, I think it would've been a hard sell in any case to those people, "political" desaster or no.) And that's just it, if you break that trust (the unwritten contract) you're going to be viewed as backstabber, and the only way would've been to get buy-in, to get consensus (sort of) to get that unwritten contract changed, and it's anybody's guess how that would have turned out had it been attempted; and that is the only scenario where doing good for the community should have had any impact. Since I'm purely speculating here and those of you who know what really went down are probably cringing in your seats already, I'll just stop here. (On the other hand, I probably know as much about the case as Joe User ever did, so I wouldn't be surprised if my speculations turned out to be correct.) Change the contract before you break it. Sound familiar? ;-) mendel 00:50, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The paper was an excellent read, by the way; thanks for the paper and the link, JediRogue! mendel 00:52, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Mendel and Entropy both, once, seemed to answer (or try to) what I was on about. The rest... no comment. I don't know all the facts about it, I never said I did, I never said I wanted to, I simply raised the issue that he got a lot of abuse, which nobody will deny, and I don't think all of the people who gave him abuse knew much more than I do. I think it's only fair to point out he would know more about the copyright and information regarding if the sale is legal than anyone else, and people who know more about it than I do (and took great satisfaction, it seems, pointing it out) don't know everything either. Oh, and another thing. all of this has been covered before Well... I'm trying to defend Gravewit... no, sorry, don't think that has actually come up before -->Suicidal Tendencie 16:26, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Another thing, part of the reason I put this here was a) to show he is not hated by everyone and b) so people would have the good grace not to reply, in numbers, with... well, what half or more of the lot of you basically did.
 * You talk about morals, perhaps try to avoid giving him a hard time on his own damn talk page. When you've done that, THEN, come talk to me about morals. -->Suicidal Tendencie 16:35, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I highly doubt he even checks this talk page anyways. -- [[Image:Isk8.png]]  I~sk8   (T/C) 16:45, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, even before this all happened it took weeks to get a hold of him. You had to ask Fyren to personally ask him if you wanted to talk to him... --Macros 16:55, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think anyone needs to worry about "bothering him" on his own talkpage. Once the Wikia deal was more or less finished, he left. His last contribution was sometime last year. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> .cнаt^  18:21, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd just like to point something out about your logic, specifically, "I think it's only fair to point out he would know more about the copyright and information regarding if the sale is legal than anyone else." That is a fallacious statement.  It a) is an Appeal to Authority (your assumption is based on the assumption that Gravewit is an authority on copyright law -- which I tend to question given ArenaNet's statements regarding the possibility of purchasing GuildWiki, i.e. that it was not possible for them to do so); b) is an Affirmation of the Consequent (i.e. if Gravewit knows the sale is legal, he may sell GuildWiki; Gravewit sold GuildWiki, therefore the sale is legal); c) Begs the Question "was the sale legal?"  Even if Gravewit knows more about GuildWiki's copyright status than anyone else, that doesn't mean that the sale was legal; there is a possibility he knew the sale was of questionable legality but went through with it anyway; d) is a possible False attribution (did Gravewit ever explicitly state the sale was legal?); e) is something of a Red Herring (it appears to clear Gravewit without actually answering the questions of morality, etc.); etc., etc.  That said, I don't know much about the situation itself, so I'm not saying your statement is false because it is fallacious (read: Argument from Fallacy), but I am pointing out that your logic is fallacious.  [[Image:Banjulhu icon.png|50x19px]]  Banjthulu  is better than you 03:47, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
 * To be honest, your entire statement is something of a Red Herring since none of the supposed "evidence" you present necessarily contradicts the "facts" that Gravewit backstabbed the community. [[Image:Banjulhu icon.png|50x19px]]  Banjthulu  is better than you 03:58, 31 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Posting here civilly is better than sending death threats through (e-?)mail, which I know he got. Or something along those lines. In that light I highly doubt we are bothering Gravewit at all. >.> [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 04:47, 31 May 2008 (UTC)


 * If you really want to bother Gravewit, rather than posting here, go scrawl Gravewit is a *tard on every toilet stall you can find (preferably in another state). I bet he's going to really hate that. mendel 08:23, 31 May 2008 (UTC)