Talk:Armor collectors

MySQL Error
Does anyone else get a MySQL error when trying to view this article? Since it's server-side I'll presume that everyone sees it. Any suggestions? :/ 07:37, 23 Jul 2005 (EST)


 * I get MySQL errors on many other pages today, too, not only this one (i.e. Scar Pattern Armor and Prince Rurik (this article worked fine earlier today!)). --84.175.76.152 08:31, 23 Jul 2005 (EST)


 * I've noticed if you click "edit" the pages have the correct wiki code :o how odd?!? 08:46, 23 Jul 2005 (EST)


 * At least this means it probably isn't serious, since the actual code is still there! 08:51, 23 Jul 2005 (EST)

Class Indication
I think it would make this page a little easier to use if we included the class next to the 'slot' info.


 * For example : Rownan wants Dull Carapaces. You will receive a piece of leg (W, Mo) or foot (E) armor in return.

I have found myself click back and forth a bunch because I could not remember who has what for a given class. I'm not sure if making such a change would disrupt the template layout of the page. Could the template author (Nunix?) please chime in?

EDIT: Is it only the pre-searing collectors who give different class items from the same NPC? The above format might only be useful for pre-searing but for consistency we could use (All) for post-searing perhaps.

--Mordaga 08:58, 26 Jun 2005 (EST)

Organisation!!
Copy this line:

At the NPC page, list the armor stats as we've set up in the lower half of the page; see the Mindle page for what I'm thinking. The armor still needs to link to the new armor-grouping pages but since we don't have that figured out completely yet... The NPC page will also have a map link, and they'll all be marked category:collector. If a collector trades for both armor and items (do any collectors out of pre-searing do this?) then list both sections. Since we can look at page histories I'd suggest just focusing on changing the list for now; the armor information won't be lost. Nunix 15:48, 20 Jun 2005 (EST)

Collector item links
I don't see a point in keeping links to things like Ebon Spider Legs. These items really don't have any use, and the only associated bit of data would be "Who drops it?" --Adam Skinner-

That's what it is for, actually. Who drops it, where, what it's used for. Gravewit

Yeah
Yeah I just came to that conclusion myself. I was thinking about removing the links and putting the metadata there, but what to do in the case where the item is dropped by a "Class" of mob (eg Shiverpeak *). Links should be fine, in that case. Adam.skinner

I think as i mentioned on Talk:Bestiary i would rather have a lot of small pages than one large list that becomes unmanageable. thats my own opinion anyway. but i think in certain circumstances large lists are unavoidable... i dont know if it can be avoided here, but i suspect it can be.

as a sidenote, standard item articles could link to crafting material/rare crafting material that they produce. - LordBiro

Yar. Gravewit

re: Biro's sidenote: yes! VERY useful, especially when you head to a new area and start getting new salvage drops. I tend to need a lot of wood planks (for Necromancer and Monk tattoos), and since salvage kits cost money, it's generally not worth it for me to break down every item; I sell the stuff I know doesn't give me planks. The other day I accidentally salvaged a Summit Axe.. and got planks from it. A lot of axes are iron =/ But I've just been sellin' 'em off for a week or two now. Same with the Summit Badges (which I'd think would be iron or granite, but noooo). Some staves are wood, others are bone or iron.. so yeah. Having a little thing that says what its core component is for each item (including collector-drops) would be -really- useful. Nunix

Plural or Singular?
I see an inconsistancy in our linking for collector items. Should we use plural or singular? I lean towards plural myself.

Yeah, i agree with plural. In the game it tends to use the plural for items as well, such as Scales as opposed to Scale. I suppose it depends on the item, but I think that we should stick to plural for consistency and have redirects if someone puts in a singular name. - LordBiro

Migration of items
This page will be depreciated in favor or Category:Collector Armor. A guide for migration is the Post-searing ascalon collector items listed on this page. Adam

I think this migration has made the site harder to use. What we really want is some sort of cross referencing where the items are listed with links to the collectors and the collectors listed with a link to the item. At the moment the collector information is on the item page which I think is the wrong place for it. This page is now hard to use as I can't simply scan it to find the location of the items I want - i.e. pants armor 27. I think we should at least make each line on this page have some extra summary information. Kris e.g. Innis The White: Collects Singed Gargoyle Skulls for Arms with armor 21/?/41


 * Yeah, I see your point. I'm not sure of the best way to arrange it though. If I understand correctly, you think we should have seperate Armor Collector, Collector Item and Armor categories (which is always good) and then have seperate pages which reference who has what. This might be a good idea, because I am starting to get quite confused by the Armor Collectors/Collector Armor pages! - LordBiro/Talk 21:43, 25 May 2005 (EST)
 * Yeah, I'm trying to figure out how to approach it. I don't really want to duplicate data by putting it in 2 places (a consolidated area, which is what I figure categories are for), plus you lose some important data that way (bonuses for headgear, mostly).  If we are going to replicate it, I think we should have those geographically based pages, with core data only (collector item, armor slot, caster/ranger/warrior AF).  It's good to be able to say: "Hey, I've got 5 of these Bleached Carapaces, who wants them?", but also you'd like to look at it like: "Man, I've got 21AF armor on my legs and no cash to purchase new stuff.  What do I need to try and get for my new armor?"  I haven't been able to figure out a way to do both without replicating data.  Wiki's don't include a SQL interface, do they?  Now that would be awesome. Adam
 * Yeah - its all about how we want to use the site. Usually I think what do I need for this armor.  The problem is that we can't store the data in a wiki in a data centric fashion as you say - well not that I know of.  Otherwise we'd store it once and create different views of it.Kris


 * Maybe we can alter it completely... What if every collector who wants Fetid Carapices was in the Fetid Carapices Category? And every collector giving a certain type of armor was in the Certain Type of Armor Category? And then you have Fetid Carapices Category in Category:Collector Items... maybe an example would be better ;) (I just like drawing diagrams of categories in case you hadn't noticed, lol)

+ Category:Items | +--+ Category:Collector Items (contains any items that can be used by collectors as subcategories) | |  |  +--+ Category:Fetid Carapices (contains all collectors who want fetid carapices, and a link to the article Fetid Carapices which might also link to Collector 1 and Armor A)  |  |  | | |  +--+ Collector 1 (links to armor A)  |  | | +--+ Category:Stormy Eyes |    |  |     +--+ Collector 2 (links to armor B)  | +--+ Category:Armor (contains all armor definitions) |    +--+ Category:Collector Armor (contains only armor from collectors) |       +--+ Armor A (links to collector 1) |          + Armor B (links to collector 2)


 * This way, if you want a certain type of armor, you look in Category:Collector Armor, if you want to know what you can do with your surplus of Fetid Carapices you look in Category:Fetid Carapices, and equally another category could exist that groups all of the Collectors together, and has a subcategory of Armor Collectors, which can be browsed if you just want to look at which armor collectors are where. - LordBiro/Talk 23:16, 25 May 2005 (EST)


 * Sorry I'm so late to the party on this. Been having connection troubles. You guys are doing great work, by the way. 128 articles! Who'd have thunk it. Anyway, RE: Adam asking about SQL queries, actually I'm a PHP/mySQL programmer myself, and I considered building a big-ass tool for things like that. But the sheer amount of work it would take sort of put me off. I could make a back end for it and give it a try pretty quickly. There's also a setting I can switch on in MediaWiki to allow SQL queries right in the wiki, but I'm not sure I trust it in the name of security, you know? Gravewit 03:09, 26 May 2005 (EST)


 * I hadn't noticed the question about using SQL... Even if we did have the functionality of SQL queries in our searches, I don't think there are many users who can write a well-formed SQL query to find the information they need ;) LordBiro/Talk 07:29, 26 May 2005 (EST)
 * I use Sybase and Oracle myself at work (I administer a web application at a bank and often do ad-hoc queries or write stored procedures). Perhaps we can create a schema for this purpose.  It'd be sweet to allow SQL queries in the Wiki, and combine that with templates somehow.  What would be the downside to allowing select queries?  I wonder if we can protect the user tables that store the passwords etc. Adam


 * Hehe, I personally think this is over-complicating the problem... That's my opinion anyway :) - LordBiro/Talk 03:16, 27 May 2005 (EST)


 * How about using the transclusion effect of – references. See my example at User:Jazim/collectorList. The collector and collector item linkes are copies in my user space (Fenster The Golden, Barton Smallwood, Minotaur Horn and Shriveled Eye) --Jazim 19:15, 10 Aug 2005 (EST)

Allow me to redefine the problem, I think we are mixing the usability of an item with the nature of the item with the person who wants the item. A dangerous mix! :)

For items, we should have a hierarchy of:


 * Items
 * Collectible (or Collector) Items
 * Carapice
 * Fetid Carapice
 * Thorny Carapice
 * Minotaur Horn (no sub category)
 * Crafting Material
 * Common
 * Rare
 * Salvage Items (items that are explicitly marked as salvage, because almost everything in the game can be salvaged)
 * Usable Items (items the player can equip: armor sets as well as individual pieces, weapons, shields, ...)
 * Quest Items (items labeled Quest Items by the game)
 * Other Items (??)

Now, within each collectible item, we could list all collectors who want it. That's it. Now, if the user clicks on each collector, they get an article that states what that collector is offering and where he's at and what's his favorite football team. :) But the design of duplicating the info in the item and collector and the armor is flawed. The info of what is offerd for what should ONLY be in the collector's article.

Now, with regards to armor. It is just regular armor, like every other armor in the game, the only advantage is that it allows for acquiring the armor prior to getting to a crafter that offers the same armor (and cheaper of course). So, I suggest we place a section about "How to acquire this armor from collectors" within the article for each armor that can be assembled from collectors. that section would list each piece and the collector that offers it. That's it. If the user wants to know what that collector wants, he clicks on the collector.

And I would not be opposed to an overall article that lists the armors that may be assembled from collectors. The list linking to each armor's article directly. No duplication of information. Please. And templates are not the answer! They are the question! :)

How does this design sound? --Karlos 20:15, 10 Aug 2005 (EST)
 * I'd say "usable" should just be "weapons" and "armor," then. "Other" would have kits, dye, the sigil, etc. from that discussion on "generic items" before, but I'd rather just put them directly into "items."  Not that it matters, but there are at least two different types of minotaur horns.  "Minotaur horn" from the ones in the desert and "curved minotaur horn" from the ones in the northern Shiverpeaks. --Fyren 23:08, 10 Aug 2005 (EST)


 * I'll make more gray hairs for you who are designing the item and collector relationships. I made armor page like Monk collector armor table. Go and see it here User:Jazim/test. Collector's seem to provide only one set armor type and thus it is possible to make a table with AL on Y axis and armor type on X axis and in the cells itself the collector items needed. There is already information in the table which can be found on collector pages, but anyway it compiles the info so you can see the requirements for collector armors with one glimpse. Just an idea (and my first wiki-table) ;) --Jazim 00:49, 11 Aug 2005 (EST)

Varis
The information on Varis's page seems totally wrong. Yet his information on the Armor collectors page is correct. I would suggest correcting his page with the information on Armor collectors and then linking to that with a tag. I would do this, but I am new and don't want to make any terrible mistakes.

Infact a few of the collectors seem to be in the same situation. Is it just me? --User:Koorb 10:47, 9 Sep 2005 (EST)


 * The collectors have changed their product quite a bit since this wiki started. Currently the Armor collectors and Weapon and charm collectors pages are probably more up to date than the individual collectors pages.  There is a conversation going on regarding this situation in Talk:Weapon and charm collectors down at the bottom.  --Rainith 01:41, 10 Sep 2005 (EST)

Rownan
If he sells no armor, should he even be in this section? --koorb 7:04, 10 Sep 2005 (EST)
 * Rownan and Walden are both listed because someone has stated that they have armor. In Ascalon (Pre- and Post-Searing), some of the collectors have armor for some classes and not for others.  Until we get confirmation that these collectors have no armor for any class they should be left in.  As each class is tested they should be updated to reflect that they have no armor for that class (so people don't constantly wonder, "Do they have armor for XXX class and no one has put that info in, or do they not have armor for XXX class?"  Also the colectors have changed quite a bit since the early days of the game (there used to be a collector deep in The Catacombs in the room where you find the dead Moa Bird according to one map I saw, that collector is no longer there at all).  --Rainith 04:26, 11 Sep 2005 (EST)

Useless "none" entries
Many collectors listed here contain entries that tell that the trader has "none" item for a specific class. Either, someone should remove those useless entries from the list or add one "none" entry for each class. I posted here because I wasn't sure if this happened by accident or if someone had good reasons to add those empty entries.


 * Some collectors don't offer armor for all classes. "None" marks the classes someone has verified as not offered.  If all the info was available, they could be removed.  --Fyren 07:42, 12 Sep 2005 (EST)

Organization Suggestion
Here's my 2 cents... Setup different descriptions for each item if you want to. But there are more items out there every update it seems. This is a complication, and yet also motivation to make such entries. What is Gwen's Broken Flute for? Click the link to find out. What can I get for all my Stormy Eyes? Click here... As for armor-trading collectors, I would suggest breaking it down not by who gives out what, but by class instead. Or perhaps as well. If you're in Lion's Arch, and curious what you can get locally, then the area listings are fine. But you're wearing AL 30 and want better, it'd be nice to just click "Ranger" or something and see where you need to go and what items to bring with you for trade.

There you have it, my opinion, for what it's worth.

Use of template
I think it's fairly safe to assume that all armor collectors post-searing offer armor for all professions, and each of them always offer the same part of the set (ie one collector will only offer chest armor, no matter for which profession). If people can agree with this assumption, then I think we can use templates to make migration or reorganization of this huge list easier. User:Thundergrace/Collector-armor-chest is an example of the templates I have in mind, and User:Thundergrace/CollectorExample is an example using that template. --Thundergrace 23:20, 2 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * There's at least one that doesn't offer armor for all professions. I don't think it's worth using a template for this.  --Fyren 23:42, 2 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * which one? for those ones we can still do it the old way, but I think most of them offer armor for all, so the templates could save us a lot of work. --Thundergrace 03:05, 3 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * I believe that some of the first collectors that you meet after the searing are like that. I know that at least one in Old Ascalon offers both weapons/charms and armor for warriors.  --Rainith 08:53, 3 Oct 2005 (EST)

New Proposal
Here is my new proposal on how to make this page smaller: Make subpages for armor collectors just like what was done to the skill trainers and weapon crafters, and then we can include them on this article. I made Vania Sewell/Armor for the listing of the armor she offers, and Vania Sewell/Collecting for what she wants. I think putting location into a subpage may be useful too but   I probably should wait for others' opinion before I do that --Thundergrace 01:19, 4 Oct 2005 (EST)
 * Gah! I was so busy at work when I first saw what you did that I missed your post here. :(  My only thought on this is that I would prefer that we put everything that is on the Armor Collectors page onto the /Armor or /Collecting page and not split them up.  Heck, I'd prefer that we stop splitting it to Armor and Weapons/Charms and just put everything into a name/collector article and then just make a collectors page.  But I can see why that could be confusing too.
 * i.e. put the collector's location, what they are collecting, their table of what they are offering and any maps all onto the same /Collector page and not split it to /Collecting and /Armor (and possibly /Location) page. --Rainith 02:21, 4 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * My reason for splitting into /Armor and /Collecting is to make maintenance of this list and all other related articles (the armor articles like Elementalist Collector Armor) easier in the future if ANet should change what they collect or their location. If and when that happens, only the /Collecting or /Location articles will need changing. But I can see that the benefit of doing so is rather minimal, so I don't feel strongly about it. Anyway, can I assume that you are not opposed to making at least 1 subpage for each collector? --Thundergrace 22:19, 4 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * I am all on board for one sub-page for each collector. I've commented on it in a few places after seeing what was done with the skill trainers.  I'm going to be rather busy today, but if I have time I'll try to take one of the collectors and make a page for them showing you my ideas, then we can see what we agree/disagree on for this.  --Rainith 00:55, 5 Oct 2005 (EST)
 * Ok, check out what I did for Brownlow and his entry on Weapon and charm collectors. This is what I would like done.  I know you did one of the armor collectors, so I figured I'd put my proposal on the Weapon and charm page (plus like I said, not much time today and his entry was small).  If you look at how it is coded with the  ===Brownlow===  as part of the sub-article if you click on edit you get taken directly to that page to edit.  (I admit, that was an accident, but a lucky one I think.)  That makes the note that I put in there almost unnecessary (you only can see the note if you try to edit  ==Lakeside County== .  Take a look, let me know what you think.  --Rainith 14:19, 5 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * This is super cool. I like it. --Karlos 17:45, 5 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * I like it too, well, except that it means every collector's article will have a section with the same title as the article, but I guess that's not a big deal. Now, I think we also need to consider whether to place maps into these subarticles. --Thundergrace 11:44, 6 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * I understand your distaste for the big bold letters with the collector's name at the top of the individual articles, but without that it could possibly be very confusing for people to edit, esp. people new to wikis. My initial thought (posted somewhere, I think in Talk:Weapon and charm collectors was that any collector that was not easily located in a few words (right outside the exit from Ascalon City) would get their own map.  The map would go in the /Collector article, so that it would show up on any lists (like this page).  The only thing I think we need to decide is, do we want to continue to break up Weapon/Charm and Armor collectors?  These are really only an issue for Pre-Searing and the first few Post-Searing collectors.  Any thoughts?  Anyone?  Bueller?  --Rainith 12:11, 6 Oct 2005 (EST)

As the only response I've gotten to this proposal was positive, I'm going to start making modules for all these collectors tonight. See Brownlow, Brownlow/Collector, and Weapon and charm collectors for an example. For the collectors that have both Armor and Weapons/Charms, the naming convention will be Name/Collector for Weapons/Charms and Name/Armor for Armor.

As for the Categories for the individual pages (this was discussed in one proposal made a month or so back), I'm not going to break them into a bunch of categories by what they collect and what they give out, I'm just going to do NPCs, Species (Humans, Dwarves, Ghosts, etc...), Location, and the new Collectors category. If someone else wants to break them up into categories based on what they collect and what they give out (swords, wands, focus items, etc...) more power to them.

I will probably not get much done on Saturday as I have to drive to Portland for a wedding (300 miles each way from Seattle). So that will take up all my time on Saturday, but I should be able to finish it on Sunday. This should not affect Karlos when he splits these two pages up by region (some collectors will be done and just have a module to copy over to the new page). --Rainith 07:48, 8 Oct 2005 (EST)

Just a suggestion, but for collectors who are going to have /Collecting and /Armor, you might also add a /Location so well. When I was editing Vania_Sewell, I noticed how on the armor collector page her info was included in parts, but the location was typed in. This means if I update her location's description on her (which I did), the armor collectors page wouldn't automatically reflect that change. -PanSola 20:52, 21 October 2005 (EST)

a note on linking the word "Armor"
Armor redirects to Armor Types.

In the context of this article, it makes more sense to link "Armor" to the Armor level article. -PanSola 02:57, 23 October 2005 (EST)


 * Armor should be linked like this: Armor --Rainith 08:24, 23 October 2005 (EST)
 * AL redirects to Armor level anyways, so is there a particular reason why it should be Armor as opposed to Armor ? Just wondering -PanSola 10:20, 23 October 2005 (EST)


 * Simply because it is easier to type and the code is left less cluttered for future editors to look at? For me, that is the way it was when I started making edits on these pages and I believe it is rather simple to keep it up.  As there is a redirect in place anyway, it might as well be used.  --Rainith 10:34, 23 October 2005 (EST)

suggestion to merge Northern and Southern Kryta sections

 * 1) Collector armor-wise, everything in Southern Kryta is worse than the Maguuma Jungle collector items
 * 2) Player travel-wise, those who just follow missions and quests would skip right over Beetletun, and won't visit Talmark Wilderness or The Black Curtain anyways, so the mission/quest isn't a good reason to keep North/South Kryta split up (as far is collectors is concernted).  Whereas for anyone who can get as far as the Temple of Ages from North Kryta, Southern Kryta is not hard to get to at all, and in fact is much closer (in terms of exploration travel, not mission-teleportation) to reach than the Jungle.

For the abovementioned reasons, I propose the Suthern Kryta section be merged with Northern Kryta, or at least moved up in order before the Jungle. Comments? -PanSola 22:48, 24 October 2005 (EST)


 * I would have no problem with that. I do think that this article and Weapon and charm collectors are both going away in the near future to be replaced with region specific articles so as to cut down on bandwidth, so we might just want to leave it until then.  --Rainith 00:50, 25 October 2005 (EST)

If you're worried about bandwidth, why not just remove all the images (Maps)? That would cut down on bandwidth considerably, and I think all the maps shown on this page are present on the page for the actual collector anyway.