Talk:Guide to defeating doppelganger/Archive 2

Discussion
Oppose: The Doppleganger 'quest' is one in itself. Perhaps a better name for this article would work.
 * I think that it just needs a better organization with builds in it instead of a big list of strategies. and perhaps change the name of the article to "builds for defeating the doppleganger" or something to that effect BMW 20:39, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

Support... This isn't a 'quest' at all, it's a mission. And reading through the Augury Rock (Mission) page and having to click a link for the Primary Goal is quite tacky. I think this should be trimmed and moved to Augury Rock (Mission). -Auron  18:32, 24 September 2006 (CDT)

"Consider bringing Healing Breeze. The AI currently will not use Healing Breeze for ordinary healing. However, it does use Healing Breeze to counter health degeneration from conditions or hexes." Is this still correct? I've seen Healer Henchies use breeze on me for normal damage, so maybe with all the updates to the AI.. I'll check this when I get home. Marstfu 04:25, 9 December 2006 (CST)


 * Confirmed. Brought in Empathy and Healing Breeze... and because I have a survivor monk, brought in Mending Touch as well as Dismiss Condition (just for my own peace of mind), empty skill bar otherwise. 12 Domination Magic, 12 Healing Prayers, the rest in Divine Favor. Cast Empathy, then Healing Breeze, then stand there for forty seconds (recast as necessary). Dead doppleganger. --Nkuvu 00:19, 10 March 2007 (CST)

On the doppelganger page, it says it has 12 in all attributes except for hammer, sword, and axe mastery. What does it have in those last three? Also, in the guide to defeating it, it says for mesmers to bring physical resistance with 0 inspiration (meaning the doppleganger would also have that). Those two statements contradict. Furthur testing I suggest. Also, can you now bring pets into the mission?- Mrmango 13: 09, 27 September 2006 (PDT)

The Assassin tip using Shadow Form simply doesn't work for a couple of reasons.
 * 1) Setting your Shadow Arts attribute to zero has no effect on the Doppelganger. At zero, that skill should last for only 5 seconds. However, when the Doppelganger cast it, the duration was considerably longer, meaning his attribute points are independent of the player's settings (which is already specified on the Doppelganger's page here at GuildWiki - it mentions his attributes will be set at 12).
 * 2) Despite bringing Shadow Form as my one and only equipped skill, the Doppelganger waited a considerable time before casting it. For the first 3/4 of the fight, we did roughly the same amount of damage to each other. The Doppelganger waited until we were both nearly dead to cast Shadow Form. So, for the last few seconds of the fight, I couldn't touch him while he easily finished me off. I tried this method several times, and the Doppelganger did not deviate from this pattern.

Monk Doppleganger
At least for me dosent this work: Retribution, Blessed Aura, Watchful Aura, Mending Shatter Enchantment, Conjure Phantsmal, Empathy, Images of Remorse

12 Domination 12 Illusion 3 Divine Prayers

I killed him in ruffly 30 seconds and the damage was only of set by me using shatter enchant so it cuts it pretty close.--68.102.128.17 20:03, 14 December 2006 (CST)

Cleanup
I've removed a lot of the individual strategies and the rubbish like "using this can be done in 50 secs" right below a strategy that wins in 15 secs, as well as the referances to canthan elites etc. Hopefully it looks less noobish now &mdash; Skuld 06:18, 23 September 2006 (CDT)

Organization
It would be nice to have some actual skill tags showing skill bars and such for the different builds. would we be able to do that? i'm not sure if this is that kind of guide, but many of the builds would be easier to show with just a skill bar and attribute settings shown, and describe a little of what to do. Also, if I get the thumbs up on this, I will make it my primary goal on wiki to clean this up. BMW 20:36, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

New way to be doppelganer for N/Me
Bring No skills with you but have a strong weapon that attacks quicker then his ax. I was able to defeat him under the 50 seconds to get the bonus this way.
 * Couldn't that be said of any class? And besides, the only thing faster than axe is daggers. Swords and axes attack at the same rate. --Vortexsam 01:03, 8 October 2006 (CDT)

As he switches with his axe on close range, equiping skills that trigger damage on attack is very effective.Use Price of failure and reckless haste (factions), and stay close to him and do not attack (same hexes on you of course). He will miss almost all his swings, and get killed quick. Empathy and Spiteful spirit had some nice damage on each attack too. Utaku Mu Dan

Best Way To Defeat Mesmer Doppel?
I think I found the fastest combination imaginable. I killed him in under 8 seconds with this:

13 Illusion Magic 13 Domination Magic 5 Fast Casting

Before entering the battle, I cast Illusion of Weakness on my self just a safety precaution and waited for my health to regenerate. As soon as the fight started, I got off a Backfire right before he finished casting Illusion of Weakness. That did a combined total of 341 (126+215) damage to him right off the bat. He then proceeded to spam the other spells and activating the Backfire. To finish him off, I hit him with Conjure Nightmare and Conjure Phantasm. 8 second victory with over 5/6 of my health bar left. — Jyro X (contribs) 10:45, 8 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Nice.... now if only he dropped a green......--Coloneh RIP[[Image:Coloneh.png]] 20:15, 21 November 2006 (CST)

Duplicate Ranger Tips

 * "Take a Pet if you can as the AI never has a pet. Loading your skills bar with only pet attacks can be an effective tactic."


 * "Set Beast Mastery to the max you can get, bring a pet with you (level 20 if possible), and take only pet-attacks. The doppelganger won't have a pet, giving you the advantage."

Both of the above mean the same thing. I thought I would give someone else the pleasure or deciding which stays and which goes. --SK  06:30, 17 October 2006 (CDT)

I was about to mention this...why isn't it on the main article? I am a ranger, I didn't max out my beast mastery or anything...didn't have all pet skills (just Charm Animal and Comfort Animal) but my cat sure helped alot, I beat it on my first try in under 50 secs. Thanks, Mr. Whiskers!

New Field
Perhaps we should put in an area where people can submit their proven strategies?

For example: / Axe Mastery: 11 Strength: 11 + 1 (helmet) Healing: 3

Time: 9.5 Seconds --Steelhammer 15:01, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

Perhaps. For example it does work, but someone deleted from main article. Necro fast win Blood Mastery: 12+1 The rest cares nobody.

Time: 5.2 Seconds

-- Crowley 08:22, 26 October 2006 (CDT) 15:01, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

Max Swordsmanship and Strength, of course. Precharge all skills with Rage of the Ntouka as you're opening the Rock. Chain the combo. Don't use Frenzy.

Time: However long it takes you to run up to him and swing four times (pausing to let the Deep Wound congeal). &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 06:22, 17 December 2006 (CST)

The above is being conservative. It's designed to try to avoid getting you killed. That makes it unecessarily slow. Hyper-fast version:

Max Swordsmanship and Strength, of course. Precharge all skills with Rage of the Ntouka as you're opening the Rock. Use speed-boosters to make that part take as little time as possible. When you see the doppelganger, charge him with Dash and use Frenzy, then immediately hit the combo. Done.

Time: Just over three seconds? &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 06:33, 17 December 2006 (CST)

Prophecies-only, no elites:Use FGJ and Berserker to charge up the combo quickly. Shield Bash will prevent the doppelganger using your combo on you. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 07:07, 17 December 2006 (CST)

On the above: you don't even have to pause to let the Deep Wound congeal. My mistake! &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 13:27, 23 December 2006 (CST)

Ripostes strategy?
I'm thinking Riposte and Deadly Riposte might be effective as a warrrior since the Doppelganger doesn't se a sword and therefore can't get any benefit out of these skills. -The Unrealist 09:24, 29 October 2006 (CST)

About the funniest way i can think of to kill him is using a N/W With Frenzy-> SS-> Insidious Parasite-> Enfeble. Hex and weaken him and watch him take ~90 damage every time he attacks.
 * Frenzy doesn't affect life stealing. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 05:14, 9 December 2006 (CST)
 * Whit that build at 16 curces you can even deal 121 dmg/hit. After he starts attacking and all hexes are cast, if he attack whit it's axe, he will go down in 3,5 seconds. Sir Bertrand 13:36, 23 April 2007 (CDT)

Some tips fixed
There were numerous tips, ex: Bring shadow form and 0 shadow arts. I removed attributes purely there because they though the doppel had their same attributes. No matter what your shadow arts are, his are 12. I changed this example to "Bring shadow form" (without context in this page of course, it's longer in the article.) Hope this edit was alright. --Blastedt(Talk) 15:34, 9 December 2006 (CST)

That's right, it's attributes are 12. Good job. Mr. Mango 16:56, 9 December 2006 (CST)

Page Restored
I re-pasted the last version before it was edited to display "PARAGONS FTW", but I'm still new to Wiki and not sure if I got it correct. But I hope I did =) Lasers 22:45, 16 December 2006 (CST)

5 seconds N/Me
Spiteful Spirit, Awaken the Blood, Backfire. Curses 17 (after casting Awaken), Domination 9. No skills that do direct damage, just useless hexes and stuff that drains life very slowly like Life Siphon. Cast Backfire first then SS before he's able to do anything. Stand there and you win in about 5 seconds. If for any reason he doesn't die quickly, keep on applying SS. Even if SS is on you, you won't get hurt too badly. 68.183.204.103 02:29, 21 December 2006 (CST)

Healing Breeze
k i went in with a trying to reanact myself as Rurik build to see if i would win or not, i had healing breeze. I was noticing i wasnt winning, so i looked at what he was using, and it was healing breeze. So should we change the note on the guide saying that his AI wont use healing breeze? Pic: http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/8405/dopplebreezejm1.png (notsure how to sign) so Angelog

He was bleeding, he uses healing breeze to counter degen. To sign, type in 4 tildes.The Hobo 22:59, 27 December 2006 (CST)

Test these tips?
Out of interest of cleanup (since the page is bit messy), I propose that each of the tips listed should be tested and verified to work. I know some are already tried and true, but you never know what the latest AI change will do. This way we can also strike out some of the tips that don't work; for example I tried the Iron Mist tip, and it's no longer effective.

Also I propose that only methods that grant the bonus (kill in under 50 seconds) be listed on this page. Similar to the vetting of builds, only the fastest and most effective methods should be listed here. Unless there is a special circumstance, such as a method requiring lots of late-game skillcaps or such, then I see no point for putting methods that work but are too slow to get the bonus.

Luckily I have the ability to test most of these myself, but if others could help that would be good also. I'm thinking use the talk page to list "Tested and Confirmed" tips. Entropy 14:20, 28 December 2006 (CST)

=enchant removal=

It doesn't work so good... since the aura you have for entering counts as an enchant he will keep using it on you until you die.

Tidying
I did a little tidying to the article just now (I oddly wasn't logged in when I submitted it, but trust that the recent change was by me). I think it needs more, like as someone above said about testing the builds and only including the ones that are able to get the bonus, but I think the changes I made are a good start. They took me quite a while and were done with good intentions at the very least, lol. I also think perhaps the professions should be listed in the normal order (like Warrior, then Ranger, etc.) since right now it has no actual pattern (the core classes are alphabetical, Factions ones are in no order, Nightfall is in normal order). I'll leave that up to what the general consensus is on it though. :) Capcom 04:54, 3 January 2007 (CST)

Ranger
As has been said many times...defeating the dopple is easy with a Ranger and nature rituals. I found a fool proof way (keep nature rituals on the left...everything else on the right):

Take a bunch of natural rituals as well as Apply Poison (poison) and Screaming Shot (for bleeding). Put Apply Poison and Screaming Shot on the far right side of the bar. Activate Apply Poison before you step on the final stone. Tab target the dopple and fire off a screaming shot...which will apply both poison and bleeding. Keep him poisoned and bleeding the entire time and you will have him dead before he finishes casting the rituals...I incurred absolutely no damage from the Dopple this way. Oh yeah...and I was doing this with my Survivor Ranger. Needless to say I'm happy. Thor79 00:27, 12 January 2007 (CST)
 * Confirmed that it wasn't a fluke...took a second ranger through...works perfectly...I put 12 points into both wilderness survival and marksmanship.Thor79[[Image:Ranger-icon-small.png]] 04:11, 20 February 2007 (CST)

Dervish in 5 sec
Change to Warrior secondary. Load 3 skills, Frenzy, Healing Signet, and Wild Blow. I used max dmg scythe (bonus dmg irrelevant) and Scythe Mastery 16, no other attrib points used. Start the attack as soon as cutscene ends (do not use Frenzy). Dopple will instantly use Frenzy. As soon as he starts using Healing Signet (after 2 attacks), hit him with Wild Blow (critical hit). He dies (Wild Blow hit did 368 dmg!). Queen Schmuck 17:40, 15 January 2007 (CST)

One skill Mesmer
1. Bring only Empathy 2. Cast immediatelly at the beggining 3. Strafe. 4. ??????? 5. Profit!


 * I would like to add that, not only does this work in Hard Mode, but throw in Frenzy and it's downright laughable. 70.238.131.196 16:28, 20 April 2007 (CDT)

Cleanup
I'm feeling adventurous. I think I'll try to rewrite this article myself. ;) Entropy 02:16, 5 February 2007 (CST)
 * You mean... all my hard work making the article look nice and use the proper spelling and pronouns will go to waste!? That's it! I'm leaving! Lol, but in all seriousness, I think this article desperately needs something done. Like testing the strategies, perhaps even going so far as to have a voting procedure similiar to builds. I have a feeling some of these don't even work now. Capcom 02:24, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * The D/W 3 hit kill sure works! Frenzy, Healing Signet, Wild Blow (tip, use wild blow for third hit, dop will be using Heal Sig while in Frenzy).  Queen Schmuck 03:50, 5 February 2007 (CST)

MONK UNDER 50 SEC
I did it like this:


 * Attributes:
 * Healing 9+3
 * Smiting 12+3
 * DF 6+3
 * Protection 0


 * Health 265(he will not attack you)


 * Equipment
 * Customized max dmg staff
 * Ascetics Ascended armor +39 each part


 * Skills
 * Orison of Healing (1st from left side)
 * Healing Breeze (2nd)
 * Scourge Healing (3rd)


 * HowTo
 * 1) At start cast Healing Breeze
 * 2) Attack him with staff, do like 60 dmg
 * 3) Cast Scourge Healing
 * 4) Keep casting Scourge Healing and using Staff
 * 5) Enjoy 100,000 exp

I killed him on first attempt under 50sec... If u test it and like it pls write me here i will add it in the article--Raelz 16:47, 23 February 2007 (CST)

I just breezed through the Doppleganger in well under 50 seconds with my Mo/E using Word of Censure and a Glyph of Lesser Energy. 2 second cooldown on WoC means you can pummel him down to the ground in about 12 seconds, then finish him off with a Bane Signet, Banish or Spear of Light. I guess you need to go cap it from Cantha first, but it made the whole thing pretty simple. Paulatpingu 18:02, 9 March 2007 (CST)

I beat him as Mo/Me with this:

12 Dom, 9 Healing Prayers;

Just start off with Backfire and let it spam the skills until it's health is almost gone, wait for Backfire to recharge, then use it again. It will neary kill itself and then e-burn it once and it's toast. Sometimes you can get it one the first volley if it doesn't use Backfire --Gimmethegepgun 16:16, 19 March 2007 (CDT)

Assassin + Shadow Form
The tactics as described doesn't work.

1. While Shadow Form, the doppleganger is hitting you while you can't hit him. 2. The doppleganger obviously has high Shadow Arts, since Shadow Form is active on him for at least 15 seconds. That is 15 seconds him hitting you and you not hitting him. 3. Doppleganger uses Shadow Form when he drops down to around 25% health. If you get that far, it'll be easier for you to kill him with an empty skill bar. 4. The tactics that seem to work is that you go in with maxed Dagger Mastery and Shadow Arts. Once doppleganger uses Shadow Form, wait for 3-5 seconds and use Shadow Form yourself. With maxed Shadow Arts you should drop out of Shadow Form much later than doppleganger (5-7 seconds). This time should be enough to finish him once Shadow Form ends on him. Kremnican 15:50, 28 February 2007 (CST)

Iron Mist
Iron Mist does not work anymore. I brought it, and all earth skills, he never used iron mist on me.

Useing a ranger / mo
Thought id lend a hand to any ranger who gets out to see the doppelganger at level 12. Given that your a level 12 or around that it might be difficult to have a level 20 pet. It took me a few tries to come up with a way to beat him but this is what’s proven effective for me on 2 separate rangers. You may not be able to beat him in 50 seconds unless your a level 20 but this is just a way to get past him for all the rangers who want to get into tombs faster and collect your 50k experience.

Quickening Zephyr

Winter

Favorable Winds

Distracting Shot

Power Shot

Penetrating Attack

Healing Breeze

Your attributes should be:

Marksmanship (enough to have the max damage coming from your bow)

Healing Prayers (as many as you can for the Healing Breeze)

Equipment:

Best things would be a short bow OR any bow with a chance to penetrate.

You should run up to the Doppelganger and get within melee range this way he doesn’t use the bow attack on you he will just focus on using his axe.

Currently because of the Doppelgangers script error he isn’t casting Healing Breeze. So its really simple right from the start.

When you start the fight hit him with Power Shot and Penetrating Attack. Let him cast Quickening Zephyr and Winter. There just there for him to waste time so you can do more damage. While he casting Favorable Winds use Distracting Shot as late as you can with out letting him cast it. Now he will begin to fight back. Cast Healing Breeze right after you interrupt him.

Now 2 things can happen. 1 you can spam Healing Breeze and Power Shot and kill him or 2 you can spam Healing Breeze and Power Shot and if it takes 60 seconds he will begin to recast all of the spirits rendering him helpless with the amount of health he has left. If it lasts long enough so he starts casting his spirits do what you did in the beginning. Spam Power Shot and Penetrating Attack.

ImmortalDeadman 08:52, 18 March 2007 (CDT)

Ranger Tips
If possible try and reach level 20 before you face him it's quite easy with quests etc. Take a pet and make sure he attacks your pet so it can destract him while you heal your pet. While he is attacking your pet spam barrage on him so you can do eg. +14 with marksmanship 13 and you would have gained back the energy you lost by the time has recharged thanks to expertise. Take troll unguent just incase and savage or distracting shot so if he tries to use it you can interrupt it. If you do have a interrupt move he doesnt seem to use his. Dust trap might be useful if he is attacking your pet you might be able to get it in and blind him

I did this and defeted him in under 10 seconds.


 * You wouldn't be using Barrage to full effect cause you're only attacking 1 target. Maybe a different elite would do even better. Sirocco 16:44, 2 April 2007 (CDT)

N/A ? seconds
Skills: vampiric gaze+shadow form Items: any max blood wepon and a enchantment mod (doesnt have to be max enchantment or dmg) Atribbutes: 12 shadow 12 blood What to do:use on him vamp gaze and attack him with the staff/wand of blood. once he gets to about 20% or so HP he will use shadow form, then you will change to the enchantment mod wepon and use shadow form. once shadow form finishes on him (and not on you since you have +??% longer enchanments) use vampiric gaze (which will deal 60 dmg) finishing him off (after his shadowform finishes he will have 45 (?) HP so 1 vamp gaze will do) (sorry if i had spelling mistakes)192.115.26.154 09:02, 17 April 2007 (CDT)

Hard mode Doppelganger
Wow, this is indeed a big challenge, i'm trying to do something about that lvl 30 doppe making like 200 dmg/hit. I seriously think they could have put him a little less powerful. well, that's the point of hard mode, making it hard. Paul revere 14:50, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Actually, I found the best way to kill the dopple in HM is to not attack him. I used the following skills at 12 Tactics and 12 Smiting (was a W/Mo, so +1 tactics) (also used + enchanting mod weapon):


 * I pre-cast Balth Spirit and let energy regen before entering. Once in the area with dopple, I walked up to melee range of him, but never attacked.  Dopple instantly used Frenzy.  I cast SoJ, and then used HS when it was knocked down.  Cast Reversal of Damage as soon as it recharges.  When HS and RD were recharging, I BS him while he was already knocked down.  This lasted about 15 seconds before the dopple was dead with me at 1/2 or so hp, so I lost about 290 HP.  Since it worked so well, you could replace Bane Signet with Smite for even more damage.  I brought BS because I wasn't excepting him to die before the first cast of SoJ ran out.
 * I had previously used Gladiator's Defense (killed him quite a few times now), but found that took too long. If I remember correctly, the game said I had 2 minutes to kill him for bonus?  Queen Schmuck 16:22, 20 April 2007 (CDT)

Shadow Formmmmmm &mdash; Skuld 16:38, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Very good idea. Wait 21 seconds then Deadly Riposte him.  Bring other blocking stances to live that long.  Queen Schmuck 17:06, 20 April 2007 (CDT)
 * It never uses Shadow form in Hard mode. Or so the 20 times I tried Mocax 00:39, 30 April 2007 (CDT)

Walk in. Use Berserker stance. Attack until Backbreaker charges. Hit Backbreaker, Frenzy, Crushing Blow, Belly Smash, and then just beat him until he goes down. He handles the rest. I did it with 15 Hammer and 14 Strength, and it was an easy 20 second match. Arkhar 02:27, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
 * What elaborate builds! I went minimalist and ran in with this:
 * at 12 Domination and 16 Tactics. --Kale Ironfist 02:35, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
 * went W/R, the time he spent making spirits gave me enough of a head start to finish him off. With attaqck skill changes, this should work for Rangers or perhaps any X/R.10:01, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
 * as an R/D with 9 Beast Mastery, 15 Marksmanship, and 11 Earth Prayers. He was dead, without me taking a single hit, before RtW fell off. Cameronl 20:27, 22 April 2007 (CDT)
 * went W/R, the time he spent making spirits gave me enough of a head start to finish him off. With attaqck skill changes, this should work for Rangers or perhaps any X/R.10:01, 21 April 2007 (CDT)
 * as an R/D with 9 Beast Mastery, 15 Marksmanship, and 11 Earth Prayers. He was dead, without me taking a single hit, before RtW fell off. Cameronl 20:27, 22 April 2007 (CDT)
 * as an R/D with 9 Beast Mastery, 15 Marksmanship, and 11 Earth Prayers. He was dead, without me taking a single hit, before RtW fell off. Cameronl 20:27, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

Using Mo/N (or N/Mo)

for any one who is having trouble like I did at first. --141.213.221.89 06:02, 23 April 2007 (CDT)

Me/E or E/Me

As E/Me, 12+1+1 Earth Magic, 12 Domination, 3+1 Energy Storage. As Me/E, 12+1+3 Domination, 12 Earth Magic, 3+1 Fast Casting. Of course, cast everything before stepping on third rune. &mdash; Abedeus   05:45, 27 April 2007 (CDT)

Mo/Me or Me/Mo

12 Smiting, 12 Domination. Cast Holy Wrath and Retribution before steping on 3rd rune and cast Empathy on the Dopple ASAP. Sit Back, Sip on a Beer and watch the Dopple die, despite nearly dying yourself. 82.32.153.207 18:56, 29 April 2007 (CDT)


 * I killed him w/ my lvl 12 pet just by using throw dirt and a full bar of pet skills, all u have to do is sit bak and heal the pet and shoot him when your not. I got the bonus this way. Eric368 19:38, 29 April 2007 (CDT)

Critical Scythe
The critical scythe build will kill the dupple in under a minute on Hard Mode. Bring drit defences.

Bug on Hard Mode?
I had a really strange experience fighting the Elementalist doppleganger. I was E/Me and went in with Illusion of Weakness as my only enchantment. When I zoned in, the doppleganger already had an enchantment on him but was at full life. Assuming the doppleganger had cast IoW as I zoned in but right before I targeted him, he somehow regened 200+ HP in less than a second without a self heal (at least I didn't bring any). I never saw him cast Illusion of Weakness in any of the battles I did (I had to try a few times before he finally went down). Curiously, when I did this mission with my Mesmer carrying IoW, the doppleganger did cast it at the beginning and his life went down. The Mesmer doppleganger had no enchantment on him prior to casting. Bug of some sort? Mrgilmorean 15:27, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

>The "Divine Fire" that you get before you fight him is an enchantment.205.250.117.181 16:08, 18 May 2007 (CDT)

lolz
I just beat the dop in 2.7 seconds XD Readem (talk *contribs ) 22:39, 11 May 2007 (CDT)

Paragon Hard Mode Doppelganger
Can anyone give me some tips on what I should use to fight him as a paragon?
 * If you have tried the tactics in the Paragon section and they didn't work, switch your secondary and try something else - many of the other sections have tactics that work perfectly fine for non-primaries. This isn't really the best place to be asking for help though. BigAstro 17:48, 18 May 2007 (CDT)