User talk:Lullysing/The Warrior Union

PuGs
PuGs are shit, use heroes and don't worry yourself! But do be sure that you don't actually suck ;p &mdash; Skuld 11:17, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
 * While i do agree that generally speaking the quality of Pick-up Groups is generally fair at best, for some people with small/non busy guilds, PuGs comprise 95% of the GW PVE gameplay. Now let's be honest :  Some people do suck. It's a fact of life.  I myself tend to be generally well liked, and people have been impressed by my effectiveness in the past.  But then again, i try to go for balance in my builds.  Speaking of which, I wonder how my general warrior builds would be evaluated by builds crew *shudders*( which described from other sources have been refered to as "like a pack of rabid hyenas hell bent on proving their e-peen to their peers")--Lullysing 12:28, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
 * For what it's worth ... I have a guild, and still managed to solo all of the main storyline of Nightfall. The introduction of Heroes really eliminate the need for PuGs for all but the most difficult areas.  Granted, PuGs are still needed for much of Prophecies and Factions ... but once you get to where you can cross over to Elona, you can pick up Heroes then return to the other campaigns to solo the rest. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 12:43, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
 * I would say over-reliance on heroes and henchies does have it's downsides, such as whenever ANET decides to "improve" the NPC/Heroes behavior  ( Example: one of the latter updates made it that heroes/henchies would not raise dead teamates.  Or only start raising them when most of the team was dead already.  Contrasted with the earlier "update" which made it all heroes and henchies would drop whatever they were doing and raise immediatly whoever died.  Which means 3-4 of your guys were trying to raise the same guy.) While i do my fair share of soloing with heroes and henchies, the essence of TWU is generally based on the more or less "end-game" stuff like the tombs, Fow, UW, Elite missions like the domain of anguish...And then, there's also certain missions which are simply ridiculous to do with npc/heroes for all manners of reasons.  For those, the warrior is DEFINITLY at the tail-end of the pecking order. ( in fact, i've NEVER been able to get into a Tombs team as a warrior. NEVER.) etc.--Lullysing 13:16, 19 March 2007 (CDT)

!About
The idea for the warrior Union came from a discussion with friends about the sad state of affairs of my beloved favorite profession. And when the discussion turned from that to the role of each professions as a social class, the warrior came off as the most "Blue-collar" of them all. Eventually the idea of "A warrior's Union" came to be, with imagined examples of warriors refusing to gimp themselves and their dignity by adopting the cookie-cutter-build-du-jour by saying "I'm sorry, but the Warrior union wouldn't like that..." made the idea so popular in my little circle of friends that the idea became a running joke.

Eventually, i figured the joke could be a way to humorously portray the problems with the warrioring profession, in the tradition of humor-laced social commentary. Hence the decision to create TWU on guildwiki as a tongue-in-cheek attempt at discussion and debunking of the myths of the "suckass warrior class".

Why?
I think the reason for the Warrior dislike is because many inexperienced newbs (newbs not noobs) who choose the warrior profession because its the classic RPGer. I have nothing against warriors, but some people who play them, eg rushing in and aggroing lots of mobs. The warrior class is great, but their problem is the people that play them. Dont get me wrong, the good ones are great and without them a party can fall apart.
 * This may very well be a factor for the trend, indeed. I have myself met pathetic warriors which at level 20 still didn't have a max damage weapons, or were using supremely crap setups. But I really don't think this is ENTIRELY the gimmick here : I think those "bad apples" are simply an excuse to classify all warriors with a glance (ex:) because on top of supposedly sucking, "All warriors are noobs anyhow" kinda thing . But there's other "facts" that need to be disbanded as well, but you bring a good point.   Of course, other classes, piloted y the noobs, can also be sucking too. --Lullysing 11:44, 23 March 2007 (CDT)


 * I, for one, fully admit to being a pathetic level 20 warrior newb. &mdash;Tanaric 02:17, 20 May 2007 (CDT)
 * you'll be able to learn very much here: Effective warrior guide, if your really a 'newb', which are said to be willing to learn :) - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:Y0_ich_halt_logo.jpg|15px]] contribs 11:23, 21 May 2007 (CDT)

Confused
I am not sure where this so-called "stereotype" comes from that you refer to, Warrior is one of the most sought-after classes for serious PvE and PvP. They have the highest DPS in the game as well as the best armor. In fact I think it is often the Elementalist or Mesmer that falls victim to stereotype - "Nuking sucks" and "Mesmer sucks in PvE". But the Warrior? Nah...aside from the Wammo (which, you must admit, can be a valid and mighty build when done right), I rarely hear complaints about dumb Warriors anymore. (T/C) 20:22, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
 * But you see entropy, I fully agree with everything you said ( ok, maybe not with the mesmers sucking in PvE, but that's another issue ). I think warriors are very respectable when it comes to damage and survivability. But some people simply buy the "suckass warriors" line, and we all have to suffer for it.--Lullysing 20:41, 25 March 2007 (CDT)  (( and frankly, "Nuking sucks" could be a warrior's version of "Disco sucks", heheehahaha. ;))
 * Well no, I am saying that this stereotype you are fighting is nonexistant, and that's why I'm confused. Nuker and Mesmer stereotypes do still exist, though. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 20:47, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
 * I dunno what it's like on the international servers, but in the North-America endgame instances, the Rangers and Eles are like the high school clique bastards you always secrety wanted to pound on with a baseball bat. I guess some people only truly feel good about themselves when they diss on other people huh?--Lullysing 20:53, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
 * I must be hanging out in the wrong districts, then >.> TRAPPER LFG oh shut up, noone wants you for Zaishen Challenge X( [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 20:55, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
 * The only teams I see people making in PUGs are "2 tanks, 2 monks, 2 nukers, MM, and other," and tanks are either Dervishes or Warriors, most often Warriors. This "injustice" doesn't even exist. [[Image:ShidoSig_moebius2.gif]] 16:52, 17 May 2007 (CDT)
 * I always see 1 tank, 2 monks, 3-4 nukers, and 2-3 others. [[Image:Glimmer_of_Light.jpg|20px]] The Paintballer (T/C)

Heroes
what? did i read koss and gore are useless? goren, yes. but koss makes the best axe AoE ever. combine him with orders olias and he'll suck out your enemies' health. - Y0_ich_halt  contribs 14:55, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * No, scabs ... . People that will take/steal your job when on strike.
 * ok, now i get it... - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:Y0_ich_halt_logo.jpg|15px]] contribs 07:57, 9 May 2007 (CDT)

comment
No idea what you warriors are moaning about. What we need is a mesmer union! We guys get screwed from all sides (Anet,players,Norgu >.>) So..whose with me? Cardsharp 12:46, 7 June 2007 (CDT)Cardsharp
 * Here, have a banner.--Lullysing 15:31, 7 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Sry if I sound bitter Lu, I'm just sick and tired of being kicked with the words,"ömg a mesmer,they suk a$$ kik him!" Cardsharp 03:33, 8 June 2007 (CDT)Cardsharp
 * mesmers are being used alot, paragons aren't ^^ so start a paragon union :P InfestedHydralisk  [[image:Shadow_Prison.jpg|19px]] 18:01, 10 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Lol, true Anet seems to have a nerf fixation on paras, theyre near useless now. I've never seen such useless elite skills :P Cardsharp 02:49, 13 June 2007 (CDT)Cardsharp
 * While i will agree that 90% of command skills are useless or got hit with a massive nerfbat, it's still quite possible to do sweet motivation setups.--Lullysing 08:15, 13 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Well, the unlimited energy allows some pretty costly spells to be thrown around. The two pips of regen is just a facade, paragons are vicious when it comes to spamming WY and GftE to keep energy flowing. Combined with moderately high DPS at range and 80 armor... paragons aren't anything near junk :p - Auron 08:19, 13 June 2007 (CDT)
 * YW ? GftE? the hell man ?--Lullysing 11:10, 13 June 2007 (CDT)
 * WY, not YW. Watch Yourself and Go for the Eyes. Both of them are low-adren shouts that generate tremendous amounts of energy for any spear chucking paragon. - Auron 11:16, 13 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Watch yourwself got specificly nerfed because of that. As for GftE, i've always liked pulling off a mini spike with a anthem of flames-GftE-vicious spear mini combo.
 * The Mesmer Union has begun. --Darrenjaguar 16:38, December 29, 2009 (UTC)
 * Dude, cry of pain. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 18:49, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

Anti Pvp
To all PvE users: we should form the Anti Pvp Union, so ArenaNet will finally understand that PvE doesn't need PvP nerfs and that they are completely different. --:-) GlennThePaladin (Talk,Contrib) 08:54, 14 June 2007 (CDT)
 * gw is intended as a pvp game. - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:Y0_ich_halt_logo.jpg|15px]] contribs 15:06, 14 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I tend to believe in all styles of play. i like both doing quests and misssions and running aspenwoods and alliance battles. i just wish i could do the jade sea once.--Lullysing 16:30, 14 June 2007 (CDT)
 * why can't you? - Y0_ich_halt [[Image:Y0_ich_halt_logo.jpg|15px]] contribs 16:54, 14 June 2007 (CDT)
 * There's never enough people in the jade sea for a match ( on both sides ) they all go and park in aspenwoods.--Lullysing 08:19, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * always bots there. works for me ^^ -Y0_ich_halt [[Image:Y0_ich_halt_logo.jpg|15px]] contribs 12:48, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

Sorry if I seem like a troll
But honestly, I don't see a valid argument here. You are claiming that dervs and even assassins get chosen over Warriors in PvE. This is completely false. In pretty much any group I've been in, they will have a preference for warriors much more than dervs or assassins. I've never seen someone say that a sin or derv can tank better than a warrior, while the latter may be true. If you want to farm, there are plenty of Warrior solo farms. You complain about not being able to find a group in places where the preferred team build is B/P.If you want to farm Urgoz, just go to The Deep, it's almost the same thing. If you want to farm DoA, Obsidian Tank. The only place you can't team farm is SF/Tombs, and DoA and The Deep are better than either. If you really want to farm SF/Tombs, get over it. Rangers can't farm much of anywhere there isn't a B/P or trap group setting. You argue that the people who are supposedly opposed to warriors are continuously spouting unfounded claims of ALL WARRIORS=WAMO AND WAMO=LAME. Well face it, when was the last time you saw a Wamo cast mending once you get into the area and thought, "I'm sure glad we got him..." and besides, although the majority of people are lacking a moderate intelligence level, I think they can tell the difference between W/Mo and W/N. I apologize if I seem like a troll, but warriors do not need more power, they are perfectly capable of farming most places, making money, and getting into groups. Perhaps I'm looking too far into it. If anyone needs more power, it's the Assassins, Paragons, and Mesmers. Also although it's completely irrelevant, Warriors have the worst dance imo, it just seems childish, and lets the wamos in shing jea armor run up and "hump" you. On a side note, I do have a warrior, he is my most outfitted character, with Primeval armor, a Colossal, and a Gloom Shield. Pushbiscuit 00:20, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
 * The point here is to look behond the cookie cutter shit : those tactics have evolved out of the fact that most of those areas are unbalanced one way or another : I much prefer to do the balthazar realm than say underworld, because the challenge there is not from enemies that are ridiculously strong, but mostly because of the way they come at your group, ambush you, and all that. The B/P and ebony tank tactics evolved because of the lack of aggro control, evolved because nothing can survive being nuked by multiple elementarists at the same time (unless your dude is being protoed up the wazoo) and other things which are FIXABLE if people finally start to look behond just the fucking damage numbers and start looking at group roles.  This is also why i feel for those poor mesmer bastards, because people don't realise how actually useful they are, and how much a good one can help by pre-chewing your enemies for you.  --Lullysing 12:43, 18 September 2007 (CDT)

My 2 Cents
I'll agree that warriors are underrated most of the time, but they are far from not replaceable. 90% of the time in PvE(hard mode or not), I use heroes and henchies without even bringing a warrior(except for elite missions, thats another story though) and never get a death. General PvE really isnt even hard. In general PvE, I see little use for warriors beside damage(good warriors can have the best raw damage in game(nukers have best potential damage), look for the guru thread called why nuking sucks). Also, there is a good reason why people don't take warriors to elite missions. Either A, warriors don't fit into the fastest team build for beating that elite mission, or B, their team already has the needed number of warriors for their team build. Many more eles get accepted into DoA teams because more are used in the team build. B/P rangers rule over tombs because they are far more efficient than any other team. Same holds true for other areas as well, you only take as many warriors as you need, as having more would screw over your team build. There is also a valid reason people run cookie-cutter builds, they work. Would you rather have somebody using a great cookie-cutter build on your team or some extremely crappy build the average 13 year old would create(like mending or frenzy without a cancel stance...)? The better the build, the more efficient it is and the often it is used. Simple as that.--Teh Uber Pwnzer 18:30, 7 September 2007 (CDT):
 * You see bud, comparing a cookie-cutter build with a crap-noob-mending build is rigging the argument in your favor. the question is not noob-crap-build VS cookie cutter, it's something decent vs cookie-cutter, all the fucking time. People have gotten so retarded over this, unless you have the cookie build AT ALL TIMES, they call you a noob, without even wanting to learn about your build, or asking if there's a strategy for it.  Also,  the game is simply too fucking slanted towards ele, it's ridiculous.... i would LOVE to see instances where direct magic damage is nerfed, while degen and physical attacks are not... see how much the Eles will whine until they can own that space in 5 minutes again.--Lullysing 07:59, 18 September 2007 (CDT)
 * My Koss is set as W/Mo mending and NEVER dies. &mdash; S h  a  d  y  G  u  y  08:02, 18 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Yes, I agree with mr. (or mrs. I don't know :-P) Lullysing, because warriors can have their place in a party, no matter if it is a balanced one or a fast one, because 2 warriors attacking the same target can really outdamage every nuking ele, and they have also much more survivability than squishy targets like elementalists or mesmers. --:-) GlennThePaladin (Talk,Contrib) 10:54, 18 September 2007 (CDT)
 * That extra warrior won't deal the damage the r/rt or ele deals to the foes that got clumped up by the first warrior. There is a reason people run only 1 warrior in DoA. Lord of all tyria 10:59, 18 September 2007 (CDT)
 * That reason is that DoA has massively overpowered monsters that hit for 120 on regular hits, use pretty much only touch attacks that steal hp and/or nuke your ass for hundreds of damage, and all other kinds of other retarded nonsense. Like, sure give people a challenge, but at one point it stops being challenging and starts being retarded.  and when it gets retarded, players have to do things like trench warfare to go thru areas, and i don't think it's right.--Lullysing 12:50, 18 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Henched The Justiciar Thommis sub-dungeon with my warrior. It's hard, but Warriors can do it! --:-) GlennThePaladin (Talk,Contrib) 22:47, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm arriving late at this discussion, but it's not for the discussion. I'm here to ask about a term I have seen often yet never understood. "Cookie Cutter"? --Darrenjaguar 16:22, December 29, 2009 (UTC)

lol
You all make me laugh --Blue.rellik 03:07, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Silence! This serious S@#t If we fail warrior discrimination will continue and EMO'S WILL POP UP EVERYWHERE! AND EMO'S ARE FRIGGIN SCARY! WAAAAAAH! The CBR
 * The internets is serious business. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 22:24, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

ding
Wakie, wakie Union! Is everybody still here?! --//Alcedo Storysparrow \\ 21:20, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 * No now let us sleep *yawns and gos back to sleep*--Eb22m2 22:59, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh and why? --Alcedo talk -cont  06:25, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Dunno? Cause perma's can tank pretty much everything and warriors aren't needed anymore, exept in pvp and the good old earthshakers. (and even they are pretty much extinct in pve) Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 07:27, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * That's okay, warriors are still the kings of pvp. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 07:33, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, great examples include Primal Rage and Backbreaker. Not to mention Crippling Slash as a good snare (bar Mending Touch being able to counter it, just pop Gash after cripslash). Also, who else can obtained 1,200+ HP? lol--Alcedo talk -cont  17:16, 2 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Anyone with enchantments and a ranger secondary (or primary). See Symbiosis. And from what I've seen BB is mostly used on KD sins.--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir 17:41, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * used to be yeah, now your a n00b if you dont run Pimp Slap. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 18:56, 2 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Imho, most of the pimpslap sins are noobs, using the most popular build of the moment, and especially one like that that doesn't require much skill to play with. I still prefer the Grenth's Grasp Sin.--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir 19:02, 2 March 2009 (UTC)


 * W/D WE Scythe ftw :) Also, DSlash is nice for SY. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  19:33, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

"While everyone will congratulate the worst monk in the universe for a job well done"
May I disagree? I find that in a group, if the slightest thing goes wrong, everybody blames the monk. If the Warrior uses aggro and then runs back and the party is wiped, the monk is normally the one blamed (because (s)he is the one healing. Also, the PvE class that is spurned most of all seems to be the mesmer - the mesmer isn't as essential to the group, and people normally take an ele or a necro as they know what their getting into, so It's not the Warrior that should have a union, it's the Mesmer or the Monk. Random Time  10:07, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You're right. And btw, don't cry about your profession. Ever seen a PvE hundred blades/whirlwind attack warrior in action? That's really sick damage. When playing PvE I mostly play H/H and if I'm not a frontliner, the war henchman will jump in(which is always devona). And one more thing: my derv can't get in a party for urgoz or the deep either and even my imba has never done it... Fleshcrawler   Soban  11:09, November 4, 2009 (UTC)


 * For some regions people simply expect certain professions... I'd never get into a decent urgoz group with my dervish for example. And Personally, I love PvE mesmers, just not playing as one myself. I almost always take a mesmer interrupt hero with me. Warriors have gotten better with buffs, but there used to be a time where "tank" was a synonym for "Perma sin".--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir 12:47, November 4, 2009 (UTC)