Talk:Secondary professions for a Dervish

Vandalism
ok ,just so you know, I just reverted it, check history, someone deleted necro and added somthing about a f***ing monk

Dervish/mesmer
Considering mesmer is referred to as "a good choice for a secondary profession" for a dervish, it's only sensible that a premade build be made for it.
 * What? &mdash; Skuld 14:25, 29 November 2006 (CST)
 * Let me rephrase: In the "Dervish Mesmer" paragraph, choosing mesmer as your second profession is written down as being "a good choice for a secondary profession". However, there are no premade builds on display for a dervish/mesmer. Perhaps this could be resolved?
 * Well last time i visited the tested builds section there were about 5 tested dervish builds. I think a few more builds need to be vetted before we can have an example of all the professions.--Coloneh RIP[[Image:Coloneh.png]] 22:31, 11 December 2006 (CST)

Dervish/ranger
Any IAS works with VoS, and apply poison isn't terribly effective with a dervish especially in PvP and to a lesser extent in PvE. It's the same as W/R with apply poison or A/R which effectiveness is surpassed by other combos. --Lania Elderfire 02:37, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

Understand the AOE of a Scythe. Heket's Rampage combines best with VOS. Solus  02:43, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

VoS is a crappy elite anyway, why make a guide just to make a crappy elite shine the brightest? --Lania Elderfire 02:44, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
 * It's like the notes skuld removed about how some dagger worked really well with Glimmering Mark sins... who cares? Bad elite, bad advice. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 02:46, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

Like on the page for Elementalist secondaries, let's try to not violate GW:1RV. Defiant Elements (talk ~ contribs) 02:48, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

What about Symbiosis, everyone?

dagger assassin

 * Daze doesn't need to be extended, if you need more than, say, 8 seconds of daze to get a kill, you're doing something wrong.


 * Golden skull strike is a bad elite compared to temple strike.


 * You miss out on crit strikes and runes/headgear for something unneeded.


 * You will run out of energy fast, or have a shitty combo with something like lead -> skull -> dual.

Now explain why it should be there.

&mdash; Skuld 10:45, 5 April 2007 (CDT)

Solus  10:48, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * It's a pressure build
 * Read variants of the build
 * Great self heal and an effective IAS
 * Zealous Renewal


 * It is terrible pressure, its a dagger assassin, your self heal is based around autoattacking, zealous renewal sucks. &mdash; Skuld 10:49, 5 April 2007 (CDT)

And that's your opinion. Solus  10:51, 5 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Not so, I present:


 * The cookie-cutter assassin builds
 * A melandru derv
 * gogo! &mdash; Skuld 10:56, 5 April 2007 (CDT)


 * If your only concern was to delete the content regarding the D/A, why remove it all? The build was vetted by GWwiki, if the build is viable, the information is viable. Solus  [[Image:SOJsig.jpg|19px]] 10:58, 5 April 2007 (CDT)


 * I couldn't care less if the queen vetted it. &mdash; Skuld 11:02, 5 April 2007 (CDT)

Dear god!!!! What is wrong w/ some of these notes O.o... why even metion a derv w/ apply? Readem (talk *contribs ) 19:39, 8 May 2007 (CDT)


 * I've deleted it 500 times. Satisfied? &mdash; Skuld 19:41, 8 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Ty Skuld, I was just about to do that myself :D. Those notes were retarded in more ways then one. Readem (talk *contribs ) 19:43, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * I thought this was here to mention possibilities, not exactly the absolute best build? --Deathwing 20:40, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Lets put mending in. Thats a posibility, and certainly isn't the best build! &mdash; Skuld 13:18, 9 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Sounds like a plan. Maybe not everyone likes running the build they copied from Observer Mode. --Deathwing 13:37, 9 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Maybe not everyone likes running pointless, junky builds? There's a difference between observer-quality and "works well," and an even bigger difference between "works well" and "works in PvE." If you can't respect those differences, kindly refrain from writing secondary profession articles. -138.86.163.139 13:40, 9 May 2007 (CDT)
 * If they don't want to run a useless junky build, and if they think that is, then they won't run it? Its far from the best, I'll admit, but maybe they prefer to run mending instead of something else. If it "works" why not list it? --Deathwing 13:44, 9 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Because anything works. Go, nay, AFK the campaign...&mdash; Skuld 13:47, 9 May 2007 (CDT)
 * User:Auron of Neon/PvE <--- -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 13:49, 9 May 2007 (CDT)
 * So then why not list stuff? If they are starting right off the bat in PvP, their build is the least of their concern. --Deathwing 13:50, 9 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Ok, why list any random shit, and not the best possible options? &mdash; Skuld 13:52, 9 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Because maybe someone doesn't want to run your best possible build? We could just paste your build on here for them to run. --Deathwing 13:53, 9 May 2007 (CDT)
 * They can run what they want, but im putting out the best stuff. Encouraging people to run subpar shit is retarded. &mdash; Skuld 15:03, 9 May 2007 (CDT)
 * What's retarded, Skuld, is when you express your opinion as fact - something that I've noticed that you do with great regularity. Moments ago, you deleted a note on the basis that "spreading poison with melee = dumb."  That's an opinion, Skuld - and we don't delete things based on personal opinion.  Regarding the note, despite Apply Poison's expensive cost, it can work with some builds such as a high energy/mysticism Dervish.  As well, the idea of poison + a snare or Reap Impurities IS worth considering.  For that reason, you should stop deleting the Apply Poison notes.  Instead, allow people to make their notes, and simply add a qualifying, perhaps parenthetical statement, after the fact that warns against the high energy costs.  I think you should stop policing the page and editing based on what you think is "retarded" or "subpar shit."--Ninjatek 12:24, 10 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Scythes are slow swinging beasts which you need to run up to, to hit with. If it works out that your foes are actually bunching up to get scythe AoE, you'd get more damage out of another attack than -4 degen. If you're not spreading poison at all and just hitting one for -4 degen... well... &mdash; Skuld 12:27, 10 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Let's just list Skuld's dervish builds on here, since everything else is "subpar shit". Or even better, we could just have every page that mentions dervish redirect to Skuld's dervish build so there is no confusion, and people won't accidently use a skill that Skuld doesn't approve of. --Deathwing 12:50, 10 May 2007 (CDT)
 * I don't think that would be a good idea. &mdash; Skuld 12:52, 10 May 2007 (CDT)
 * I wouldn't be opposed to that, Deathwing. Be careful what you wish for. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 12:58, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

There are two points here, Skuld, and you're trying to pick the one that's most convenient for you to address. One is the arguable effectiveness of using Apply Poison with a Scythe. The other is your policing of the page. I'll expand on both:

First off, with any method of attacking multiple foes it is generally encouraged that one try to spread conditions, steal health, inflict critical hits, or otherwise maximize the damage output. You're suggesting that it's "dumb" or "retarded" to apply poison on a scythe and attack one enemy - and I would agree with that concept, but not your word usage. It would be similar to barraging a single enemy ad infinitum. Some players are not educated enough gamewise to know better, others are. But with groups, the story may very well be different. Someone may wish to spread poison while a teammate uses toxicity, or spreads bleeding, or burning with Mark of Rodgort or Anthem of Flame, etc. There are a lot of possibilities - all of which encourage people to test out builds for themselves and actively participate in the construction of builds. Rather than entirely disqualify apply poison on a scythe, as you wish to do, it would be better to mention it as a note, and THEN let the players decide how to use it or if they want to use it. By disqualifying the concept of apply poison on a scythe, you're saying that there is absolutely, positively, beyond all doubt - ZERO wise or applicable usage of the combination. And that is a very bold statement because you're not leaving yourself any room for error.

Secondly, there is the issue of you frequently deleting comments of the abovementioned nature. In the above comments, you undoubtedly exaggerate when you claim, "I've deleted [apply poison notes] 500 times." Even without exaggeration, it is clear that many users have attempted to make these notes. This indicates a community consensus that the Apply Poison notes are noteworthy. As User:Deathwing tried to tell you, it doesn't HAVE to be the best, greatest, most godly perfect build idea in order to be mentioned on the page - it just needs to be a possibility that's worth considering. This is for the community to decide, not you. And the community, according to you, has decided this and tried to post it 500 times. Keep in mind that this is a community entry, not Skuld's private blog where what he says goes. We want an Apply Poison NOTE on this page because we think it's NOTEWORTHY. This isn't the disastrous builds section where only the greatest super build ideas remain standing. This is a guide - so let it serve as one and stop deleting the notes.

If you want to keep the Apply Poison notes off this page, you're going to have to form an effective argument for BOTH of the points I've mentioned above; just picking one won't work.--Ninjatek 13:03, 10 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Scythes. Autoattack. Attack skills that cost energy. Wasted points in Wilderness Survival that could be better spent in other attributes. The speed at which stuff *already dies*. Do we need to list every reason why its subpar? Try listing the reasons it should be used over, say, more dervish attack skills (which are every bit as AoE and more sensible to spec). -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 13:09, 10 May 2007 (CDT)