Talk:Effective monk guide

Hex Removal
Why isn't the Mesmer elite skill Expel Hexes included in the Hex Removal section? Sure, it would fill your elite slot, but it is not linked to an attribute and it is a very effective way to remove multiple hexes quickly. --Azuresun 10:01, 5 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Thanks for pointing out. I altered the section to cover Expel Hexes. As for your question, there are two reasons: a) By the time I wrote the hex removal section, I didn't know about this skill. b) Recommending is a Metagame decision. For a Monk/Mesmer it is not a good choice simply because all other Elite skills are even better. ~ Nilles (chat) 19:18, 5 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Honorable Sarah just reverted my adding of expel with the changelog "Rv, expel is a mesmer skill." It surely is, but Inspired and Revealed are too, and nobody is removing them (I hope). I'm not going to re-rev, but I'd really like a better reason, especially since I didn't add a new section or lots of description, but merely listed it in the "fire and forget" point. 134.130.4.46 18:13, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
 * expel is a mesmer skill, as are reveiled and inspired enchant/hex, but that section talks about monk skills, and none of the above should be there. isn't there a secondaries sugguestions near the bottom? --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 21:34, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
 * That section talks about hex removal, not monk skills. It also explicitly states in the last bullet point "none of them [other hex removal skillls] is recommended to usual monks", which is definitely not true for inspired/revealed hex (which are still listed, but I understand you'd prefer to remove them), and at least Azuresun and I do recommend expel as well. 134.130.4.46 23:41, 14 August 2006 (CDT)

Guide
3 down, 5 remain --Honorable Sarah 17:52, 9 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Sorry but these guides suck ~.~ Skuld  11:06, 10 May 2006 (CDT)
 * I wouldn't say that. It's just totally not in-depth. Missing parts are (among others): kiting, focus swapping, energy management, hex removal, condition removal. I might add the sections in question when I find the time. --Nilles 05:19, 11 May 2006 (CDT)

Ok first, this guides are adressing something that is definitly missing from the wiki, which is good. But please be aware that the "your writing to be edited mercilessly" part at the bottom of the edit page applies especially here. I am willing to bet my new Kuunavang Minipet that this page will change its look quite drasticly, so dont feel offended by that please =) --Xeeron 06:06, 11 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Ok started myself, quite a ton of edits. Basically, ask yourself: What is this article trying to achieve? Tell new players how to use a monk. Anything that is not directly helpful for new monk players should be thrown out. Being the only class to have enchantments with upkeep is an interesting fact, but doesnt help new monk players one bit. And throwing skills at players is something better left to build pages (which could be linked from here). I also changed the names to the more common "Healing Monk" instead of "Spam healer" and took out the Boon healer (rare) for the much more common Boon Prot. As noted above, tons other other stuff is still missing, this is only the start. --Xeeron 06:42, 11 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Ritualist and Assassins have upkeeps (assassins do for certain, I think Rts do) Skuld  09:43, 11 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Please do not leave out the Boon Healer. It is by far the strongest PvE healer you can get if you have a battery and this is not a metagame discussion. I will write the details since you obviously fail the experience there. It is no replacement whatsoever for a Boonprot. --Nilles 16:19, 11 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Dont feel held back by me. I just went with the stated number of 4 (to not make the article to long) and Boon Prots outnumber Boon Healers by far. And the last time I had a Battery in a PuG with my monk was ... 1 month ago? 2? 3? I dont even remember. --Xeeron
 * This is not about PUGs, it's about monking. Many people in my guild love playing necros so I have a battery with me quite often. As long as I make sure the team is fine, noone minds. That's the point. --Nilles 17:40, 11 May 2006 (CDT)
 * True, I just made that PUG example because Honorable Sarah mentioned that the guide should be mainly directed at PvE PUG players (which I agree with). If you have a guild with lots of necromancers, you're a lucky monk ;-)
 * But in general I'd say that Batteries have become rare now that every necro is a MM or SS. Still I am ok with the way it is presented in the article now. --Xeeron 04:17, 12 May 2006 (CDT)
 * I think that a lot of the information on this page (i.e. information about kiting, general ideas about what weapon sets to have) should be in seperate guides. This should be a general idea with links to the specifics. Rhia Aryx 15:23, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

Invincimonk
In section Runes and Armor, it says that the 55 invincimonk should have the lowest possible armor rating armor. This is absolutely not the case, since it doesn't matter AT ALL what kind of armor is used for a 55 invincimonk. The only reason why an invincimonk would want to use an armor with low AL, is that it usually is the cheapest to purchase. An invincimonk could even run around in FoW armor and be effective.

Another thing is, you mention that an invincimonk would only need 3 pieces of armor, again, this is not correct. In order to be able to obtain a HP level of 55, an invincimonk requires 5 armor pieces with 5 Superior Runes (and of course none of those 5 should be a Superior Vigor). (Although I just realised that you may have meant it a bit different than it is currently written.) --CoRrRan 03:23, 10 May 2006 (CDT)


 * let me address your points in order:


 * 1) Ar level is the major deciding factor for AI targeting routeens, since the 55 monk is the prefered target in any situation, they're AR should be as low as posible.
 * 2) if you read the article, you'll see that above i recomend vestiments of Superior favor and three headpeices with Superior runes. since, as you point out, the 55 suit is nothing but standard armor with 5 superior runes, you'll only need Sandals, hand wraps and leggings with superior runes. --Honorable Sarah 10:30, 10 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Since Invincimonks are either always alone, or with a Necromancer in UW, it doesn't matter what the AI thinks is a nice target. Alone he is always the target anyway and in UW with a Necro, the Necro should always wait until the monsters have aggro'd the Invincimonk before coming in casting range of the Invincimonk and the attacking monsters. (And AL isn't the only variable taken into account by the monster AI.)
 * Yep, this is what I thought you meant by that. I understand your explanation, but find it somewhat strange that you are contradicting yourself now, by saying that the Invincimonk can put on 2 pieces of armor with AL=60. --CoRrRan 19:29, 10 May 2006 (CDT)
 * yes, AR is not the only factor, but it is a major one, and combined with 55 health (vs 500 or whatever), makes the 55 monk a very attractive target. i've been able to 55 tank my guild on cap groups in the southern shiverspeaks, which addresses your next point about usefullness of 55. lastly if you have (60+60+15+15+15/5=) 33 average AR and 55 health, you'll be more attractive then an elementalist with 375 health and 60 average AR.--Honorable Sarah 12:37, 11 May 2006 (CDT)

PvE centric
All the "effective" guides so far are very PvE centric. Info that applies to PvP, let alone that is good PvP advice, is coincidental. This isn't a problem, of course, but the guides might want to point out they're dealing with PvE or be renamed to "PvE whatever guide," perhaps. --68.142.14.94 09:55, 11 May 2006 (CDT)
 * i wrote all the effective guides, and they're focused on PvE pickup groups, because thats where you run into the most ineffective players. i don't PvP much, so if you have some specific PvP advice, i'd love to see it included. --Honorable Sarah 12:10, 11 May 2006 (CDT)
 * I beg to differ. Random Arena is the mother lode of all ineffective players. --theeth 08:05, 12 May 2006 (CDT)
 * RA used to be the place to find the worst players. If you've done any significant amount of ABing, I think you'll agree that it trumps any other part of the game in terms of worthless players. 404notfound 05:47, 15 May 2007 (CDT)

construction vs destruction
someone blanked a large portion of my original submit without adding anything in it's place. they also put several empty headings in. i don't mind people changing this, in fact i was counting on it, but i'd apprecate if you didn't replace a partially usable section with an empty heading. --Honorable Sarah 12:14, 11 May 2006 (CDT)
 * That someone would be me. 2 reasons for blanking: a) I didnt have the time to write what I wanted to fill the blank with and b) I found the stuff in there 100% unuseful. The very last thing a new player who just got his monk will need to know is how to set up 3 sets of armor with different superior runes to be able to switch all possible attribute combinations. It is making the article unreadable by filling it with stuff that is irrelevant. --Xeeron 12:40, 11 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Ok I wrote something for all but one headline now, but it is still totally stubish, lacking examples, links, nice language. --Xeeron 13:13, 11 May 2006 (CDT)
 * I can understand you, Sarah, I was quite irritated, too. But just at first sight. The guide we have now is far from being complete, but it's a step towards something helpful, not just a build discussion. --Nilles 20:39, 11 May 2006 (CDT)
 * I am sorry about that, I tried to forwarn you in my first comment here. I just felt that the article would be more helpful to readers if it had a very different structure. --Xeeron 04:17, 12 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Ok, I see I'll get stuck with the "bad guy" part in this one. I deliberatly deleted most of HonorableSarah's mentioning of individual skills in the different monk types discussion. Why? Because we are a wiki and should make use of that. Discussing individual skills makes the guide extremely lengthy, it would be better to keep the discussions short but include topics about everything that might come up for a monk. Why repeat skills here, when we can link to builds? Why go into each energy management skill, when there already exists an energy management guide? Why discuss different hex removals here, when that would fit much better into a general hex removal guide. Keep the amount of writing low and provide links to indept discussion instead of creating a gigantic one-size-fits-all article please. --Xeeron 06:33, 12 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Interesting approach, but you have a point. I'll see what I can change. --Nilles 07:21, 12 May 2006 (CDT)

Linkage
We should not forget to give this article proper linkage once it is done. Would be a shame to do a great guide that is read by noone because it is not linked. The monk profesion article seems an obvious start, maybe the getting started in ... articles as well. --Xeeron 04:30, 12 May 2006 (CDT)

Overloading the guide
Since Xeeron mentioned the problem of an overloaded guide in the thread above, we need a solution of some kind. Any opinions or additional suggestions? --Nilles 07:34, 12 May 2006 (CDT)
 * 1) The first and most obvious option would be to take the respective parts out of the guide and create a new guide for each of the topics. While this could work, it's actually frustrating for an adept reader to open a new window/tab each time he wants to know some specifics.
 * 2) Second option, placing all in-depth discussion on the bottom of the page and link them within the page. Less traffic, less pages in exchange for the need of scrolling. "Return" links could help here.
 * 3) Third option, taking the respective parts out of the guide and create a single page containing all in-depth discussion, similar to option 2, but on a new page. Advantage is, that all in-depth discussion can quickly be accessed by a combination of tab switching and scrolling, but links to specific paragraphs are a hindrance in surfing as they open new windows instead.

Dwaynas Kiss
The section on dwaynas kiss totally misses the fact that the skill heals for additional points for each enchantment or hex on an ally. It mentions only enchantments, which is just plain wrong! Not too sure on the edit myself, so someone else can do it ;) Neon 12:29, 15 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Well, the bonus while being hexed is certainly nice, but not vital imho. Feel free to update what you see fit. --Nilles 13:03, 15 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Well since you tend to heal people with hexes on them more, it is a very nice bonus. On a side note, please add new comments on the bottom of the page or this will get really hard to read. --Xeeron 13:27, 15 May 2006 (CDT)

This should be broken apart..
This guide is too general and too far reaching to actually achieve much. Instead, it should be broken into smaller guides for the respective monking build and attached to those builds. For example, the tips about Boon Protting should go in the boon prot build. There are also a lot of sweeping generalizations that should just go. If no one volunteers to do this soon, I will do it. I'd much rather Sarah does it as the original author. --Karlos 14:53, 20 May 2006 (CDT)
 * the original idea of this guide set was to take someone from "I want to try monk!" to an effective player suitable for Pick up Groups or RA. if you think that can't be done in one guild, they your concept of "effective" is to large. this is "Applied Healing Prayers 101", not "Monking Hall of Heroes for Post-Docs". A new monk probably doesn't need to know the mathmatical advantages of Healing Hands vs Word of Healing, but they might want to know a bit about Spam healing tactics and deep healing methods, and how to make divine favor work. personally, i think this guild has gotten away from that ideal --Honorable Sarah 13:23, 2 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Um, considering there's an entire smiting line, the "Effective monk guide" ought to be more general than "Applied Healing Prayers 101". At its current state, it feels like someone named "Effect minion master guide" as "Effective necromancer guide". - 23:36, 9 June 2006 (CDT)
 * This is indeed to be used as a handline for first time players, and explicitly NOT meant as a general all-including article covering all monking issues. You will notice that 2 important monk playing styles are related to other articles (55/smite). But, I dont feel people will start a new monk and directly go for 55 or smite (and if they do, they will know how to find the relevant info). --Xeeron 04:45, 20 June 2006 (CDT)

Question
Anyone want to explain how to not get chased around and killed all the time as monk? It's pretty frustrating, and think maybe more should be added about that in the guide. -ZBrisk 01:48, 24 December 2006 (CST)

Some of this stuff is questionable.
There are a few cases in this guide where the information given is highly opinionated at best, and in some cases could be considered flat-out incorrect. An example of this is the section about a Warrior secondary (I added a bit to that section).

'Never be at Full Energy' And why use that 5 energy if it's not needed? --Dazra 04:31, 3 January 2007 (CST)


 * No, that is actually a widely accepted principle for all casters. If your energy is at max and you're regenerating, that's bad - you are essentially "wasting" those regenerated 5 points of energy. Even if it's not needed, cast something anyway, like Orison on someone who took 1pt of damage. That way you're always at your best energy efficacy.
 * I mean, you'd never sit around at full energy if you were Bipped, would ya? Entropy 04:39, 3 January 2007 (CST)
 * I'm not sure if that's true. I think, personally, it's better to use energy as needed, not just because you have it. Rhia Aryx 15:21, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

Ps. you can clean up the article as you see fit, just make sure to record significant changes in the talk page. Entropy 04:39, 3 January 2007 (CST)

I Would, but My techniques are questionable to most people and therefore not valid. But I'm happy to know that with the exception of that crazy Heal sig + frenzy wammo that agrroes everything, hardly anyone has dies while I monked. --Dazra 14:03, 3 January 2007 (CST)

Additions and questions!
Under team tactics, it said "Insert stuff about common three monk backlines such as bonder/sb-infuse/woh and woh/rc-prot/sb-infuse. Address both playing styles in GvG and Global Tournament.", so I tried to fill some of that out. I'm not sure about this guide though; seems a little long-winded and archaic. I was thinking maybe get rid of all the build-specific references (e.g. Boon Prot), just because the meta will change, and it should be about general strategies. More detailed explanations of weapon sets (such as weapon hiding and armour versus slashing), energy management, stuff like that would be nice. I'm not sure how it'd fit in though, so I'll wait before typing something up. :) I think at the moment the guide doesn't get to the point quickly. Talk about PvE, talk about the differences between Smiting, Protection, and Healing in PVP, then specific strategies... right now it's hard to find anything of value, in my opinion. Dark Helmet 04:15, 6 March 2007 (CST)

Organization

 * Moved the information on Boon Prot Monk and Boon Healer Monk to their own pages since they're specific builds that have fallen out of favor. Rhia Aryx 20:06, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Also added the Attributes section since Divine Favor in particular is complicated. If anyone more knowledgeable about this particular topic could fill that in that'd be great. Rhia Aryx 20:23, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

Please fix
The guide states (with no sense of purpose) that the only two roles of a monk are staying alive and keeping the team alive. It then contradicts itself by saying that monks need to remove hexes and conditions. On a fundamental level that doesn't make sense, but what bothers me is that the guide really doesn't mention anything about it's secondary role of helping the offense by removing conditions (like blind) and hexes (like blurred vision) that aren't immediately vital to the survival of the team.
 * Get this, removing hexes and conditions is keeping the team alive. Why wouldn't it be? --Kale Ironfist 04:10, 25 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Well our warriors are blinded, but they aren't losing health so we should save our energy for heals, right?

I contributed a little bit to this guide. There's still a lot left to do. Darkhell153 08:10, 27 June 2007
 * If they aren't clean, they aren't killing things, so in not removing the blinds, you're going to be spending more energy trying to patch things up after some attacks come on to your party because your Warriors couldn't kill things. Besides, you should have a effective prot monk who will prevent too much damage accumulating at once, so your heals will be timely and efficient, not leading to more deaths. --Kale Ironfist 21:33, 27 June 2007 (CDT)

Kale, the point I was getting at (and I wrote the original statement here) is that this guide tells monks to play way too defensively.

With regard to the particular issue here: yes, killing the enemy team does ensure the survival of your team, but saying that removing blurred vision is vital to team survival is a large logical jump. That's similar to saying that a warrior's job is only to kill people, when they're also there to make people kite, to knock people down, etc. Those things do eventually lead to the killing of people, but it's still a massive over-generalization.

Trimming the guide...
I'm going to try to take out a lot of the antiquated stuff. I might also delete some stuff that just doesn't seem to add anything to the guide. If there's any controversy we can always go back and put things back. I'm also going to try to separate the guide into two different sections; PvE and PvP. They're fairly different styles of play and they're both really mixed up in the current guide.