Talk:Hex

I'm too lazy to look them all up, do Monks really have hexes?--Jackel 09:51, 30 Jul 2005 (EST)
 * Scourge sacrifice and healing, at least. Nothing else came to mind when I thought about it.  --Fyren 10:31, 30 Jul 2005 (EST)

Skills that are kinda somewhat related in a way, sort of..

 * (copied from User talk:Karlos)
 * Here's some things wrong with your changes to the skill lists in Signet, Stance, Hex, Enchantment, Sacrifice, and Knockdown:
 * The new list titles are way too subjective in meaning (for example, someone added Diversion to "Skills that harm/hinder Signet users", which would have much less of a case in the old list title).
 * The user can no longer tell that all skills that directly involve those skill types are among the lists, and that the lists are limited to such.
 * The lists are sometimes broken up into multiple very, very short lists; some have a single item! ::These are a lot less convenient for the user to navigate.
 * For the information of how the skills relate to the skill type: unless it adds a lot of utility to the user and is objective enough, please consider keeping it limited to parenthetical information after each element in the list instead.
 * --Rezyk 15:24, 1 Oct 2005 (EST)

Hmm, Rezyk, you made an edit and devised a nice idea of also listing skills that revolve around the said condition or spell, this is great. I merely divided it into clearer categories. You are reverting my "good faith edit." Which did not remove your information but simply sorted it. I am making a note of this in light of our earlier discussion.


 * Oh, come on! We were specifically discussing these exact reverts in that same discussion, and I couldn't see how to interpret your answers in a way that suggested you were not OK with it.  I also honestly do not understand how you can claim my edits (that you reverted before) to not be "good faith" while your edits are. --Rezyk 19:01, 1 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * To be clear -- I do see clear advantages to your version of the lists, where my version is deficient. But there are clear disadvantages too; neither is strictly better, and I think it warrants discussion. --Rezyk 19:01, 1 Oct 2005 (EST)

Now, with regards to the categories, in response to your points: 1) If anything in those lists was subjective, you put it there, so blame yourself. I merely categorized what you put there. I think I added one skill. Subjective means that not everyone agrees it should be in the list. Well, you put them all there, so take it up with yourself.

Now, if you are saying my categories are "vague" or unclear, you have to ask yourself.. Which is clearer: "Skills that hinder signets" or "skills that are kinda some what related in some way." What is the criteria for the first: Simple, a skill that makes using signets harder. Increases, cost, activation or recharge. Now, what is the criteria for the second? Only you know. In your design scheme. A user is plagued by hexes and wants to know how best to prevent them. He types "Hex" in the search box and gets this article. Then gets a list that says: "Skills related to hexes in OTHER ways" He has no clue what that means. He has to read each and every entry to find out which ones concern him. In my view, he has a list ready for him.

2) The titles to the sections are very clear and each group is directly invovled in the way the title of the sections says they are. Your title makes it VERY vague how the skills below it are actually involved.

3) So some lists are short.. So what? Arena Net only made one skill that can do this or that. Who cares? There are only two skills that affect Stances any way. Any way you sort them they will look few. I guess that's a very good way for readers to know there are VERY few ways of stopping stances. So, Category:Dryders only has 4 beasts under it? Shall we merge it with Charr just so that it doesn't look so lonely over there?

I am not defending the spcific choices. It's fine with me if you believe Rend Enchantments is a skill that hinders not removes enchantments or whatever. I am defending the concept that we divide the "related" skills into clearer divisions.

Finally, I ask others to weigh in on this because, quite frankly, I think this is ridiculous! The divisions I made are clearly adding to the VERY good work you made. I ask others to weigh in on this before we have another revert/edit war. I will go the whole nine yards on this because I believe your request is completely lacking in objectivity. I have no nice way to tell you that. Sorry. --Karlos 16:30, 1 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * * sigh* For the second time in less than 24 hours I find myself agreeing with Karlos. I'm kinda concerned.  :P  In all seriousness though, Karlos' way does seem to make more sense.  You search on "hex" and you find a page that gives you a link to a list of hexes (link to the category could use a little visibility though), and a list of what other skills interact with hexes and how they interact with them.  That gives me more info that just "these do something with hexes."
 * I know from personal experience that Karlos can be a bit... blunt, with his critiques, but I agree with him in this case. And I honestly doubt that there is anything personal to them.
 * Edit - I was just about to save this when I noticed this little line from the bottom of the edit page, I thought it might be worth putting it here: If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, then don't submit it here. This is something that everyone needs to keep in mind when contributing to the wiki (myself included).  --Rainith 17:49, 1 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * If the issue is just layout/whitespace/short lists, perhaps lists like this, instead of basic wiki lists:
 * Hexes that maim kittens: Rabid Pitbull, Hungry Bear
 * Hexes that make little girls cry: Dead Bunnies
 * --Fyren 18:42, 1 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * 1): The subjectivity I'm talking about is whether a skill belongs under a given list title! I will stand by the skills I put under my list titles, and even claim that they clearly belong.  It is different when considering which skills belong under your list titles. Is Diversion a skill that is harmful to signet users? If "yes", your lists are taking on an entirely different meaning than mine...  If "no", well, one could argue against that pretty easily.  Also, could you stop paraphrasing my version in distorted ways that make them sound especially bad?  I never put things in those exact terms.  Anyways, your point is valid; there are clarity issues with my version, and I wish it to be improved.  I see your version as having lots of ambiguity of a different sort, though. --Rezyk 19:01, 1 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * 2): I think you misinterpreted my point here; it wasn't about clarity of the list titles relating to the list items, it was about indicating completeness to the user. With regards to showing how the list items are involved, I proposed using parentheticals after the items.  --Rezyk 19:01, 1 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * 3): "So what?" Like I said, these really really short lists are less convenient for the user to navigate. That is worth noting for this discussion! --Rezyk 19:01, 1 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * I am not attacking the specific choices of skills within the lists. I am not even wholy attacking the concept of dividing the skills into more divisions. (I've even made divisions myself, like "Skills that can remove hexes" when the pros outweighed the cons)  I am saying that there are disadvantages with these specific divisions -- essentially that overcategorization is hurting usability, but usability should come first. --Rezyk 19:01, 1 Oct 2005 (EST)

I propose something like this: --Rezyk 19:51, 1 Oct 2005 (EST)

Skills that directly involve hexes

 * [[image:Ranger-icon.png|15px]] Melandru's Resilience
 * [[image:Ranger-icon.png|15px]] Nature's Renewal
 * [[image:Monk-icon.png|15px]] Dwayna's Kiss
 * [[image:Mesmer-icon.png|15px]] Hex Breaker
 * [[image:Mesmer-icon.png|15px]] Mantra of Persistence
 * [[image:Necromancer-icon.png|15px]] Feast of Corruption
 * [[image:Necromancer-icon.png|15px]] Soul Barbs
 * [[image:Elementalist-icon.png|15px]] Lightning Touch
 * Skills that can remove hexes:
 * [[image:Mesmer-icon.png|15px]] Shatter Hex (from ally)
 * [[image:Mesmer-icon.png|15px]] Inspired Hex (from ally)
 * [[image:Mesmer-icon.png|15px]] Shatter Delusions (from foe)
 * [[image:Monk-icon.png|15px]] Contemplation of Purity (from self)
 * [[image:Monk-icon.png|15px]] Convert Hexes (from other ally)
 * [[image:Monk-icon.png|15px]] Holy Veil (from ally)
 * [[image:Monk-icon.png|15px]] Purge Signet (from ally)
 * [[image:Monk-icon.png|15px]] Remove Hex (from ally)
 * [[image:Monk-icon.png|15px]] Smite Hex (from ally)

I'd say Karlos' "short lists" are much more usable. You separate "skills that can remove hexes" and "other." If someone actually wants to know what "other" means they have to click through every skill article. I'd prefer any version with short descriptions ("extra heal per hex," "illusion hexes last longer," etc.) over one with none. --Fyren 20:18, 1 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * Fyren, all of these list organizations can easily support short descriptions like those. For example:
 * [[image:Mesmer-icon.png|15px]] Mantra of Persistence (illusion hexes last longer)
 * --Rezyk 21:16, 1 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * And I propose you define to us what "directly involves" means. I honestly don't have a clue. I am not making fun of your title, it really makes no sense to me. What do you mean "directly involves"? As opposed to "indirectly involves"? Which is what? So, does Glimmering Mark cause blindness or not? No, it's a hex, the NEXT lightning attack causes blindness, does it directly involve blindness then or not? What about Thunderclap? Does it directly cause knockdowns? No. But the following lightning attacks will. What then?


 * You will need to explain to us what that means. Everyone seems pretty clear on what my lists mean.


 * Personally, I don't like the wording "directly involves" either. A better wording for the superlist would be "Skills that involve the Hex skill type", "Skills that involve Blindness", "Skills that involve Knockdown".  Regarding what causes blindness/knockdown, all of our systems use the same list title for them, so I don't know why you are splitting hairs there. --Rezyk 22:13, 1 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * With regards to "Diversion" I don't see it as a big deal, but if you do, it is easy for us to state that those skills listed below MUST specifically target signets. I think that is a useless distinction, though. For example, Cry of Frustration interrupts ALL skills, I think it should be listed as a skill that that disrupt all kinds of skills. So what if it apprears six times. It's a pretty useful skill.


 * This is a very important distinction for me, and is what I was getting at regarding ambiguity/subjectiveness. I think it should be clarified whether or not those general skills are to be included in your list version. --Rezyk 22:13, 1 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * The example you give above is completely confusing.. What is the common denomenator between Lightning Touch and Dwayna's Kiss? They do the opposite of each other. Just that they are based on hexes?


 * That they involve the hex skill type. I thought it was plain that that was the common denominator of all skills in these skill lists.  (Why else are they appearing in these articles?) --Rezyk 22:13, 1 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * I propose a structure like this:


 * Skills that Affect Hexes
 * These skills boost hexes:
 * Uber Hex
 * Hexasination
 * These skills weaken/remove hexes:
 * Unhexable!
 * To hex or not to hex?
 * Hex THIS!
 * Skills Affected by Hexes
 * These Skills boost hexed players:
 * Don't feel so bad
 * Hexes Shmexes
 * These skills harm hexed players:
 * The hex is on you
 * Neener neener neener


 * Also, I happen to know for a FACT that Rabid Pitbull is also a skill that makes little girls cry! So, there! :) --Karlos 20:24, 1 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * I would like it to be noted that Rezyk, seeing clearly that three people (of greater experience in the wiki) favor the sorted lists design over his "directly involved" design still went ahead and reverted all the lists back to his design. I believe this is a serious issue. --Karlos 20:40, 1 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * Please do not intertwine your paragraphs with mine as it makes the talk page harder to read. Just write a response below. Answering point by point is also an easy way for us to get off on tangents and get caught up in arguments and counter arguments.
 * I believe it is apparent "directly involved" or "related to hexing" are vague terms that no one likes. The response you gave to the question about Lightning Touch vs Dwayna's Kiss is odd. It completely does not factor in the user. So, how would the user ever know which is is relevant to him and which is not? He does not care that you think they are related to the hex spell type in a way you do not wish to divulge at the moment (no disrespect), he wants to know which one he can use to stop those hexes of the Summit Taskmasters from hurting him.
 * No one likes the example you posted about "Directly Involve" then "Remove" can you rework it in some way? Can you work off the attempts Tetris and I are doing in Signet? --Karlos 22:24, 1 Oct 2005 (EST)