Talk:Shiro Tagachi/Archive 1

Cowardly?
Where/what is written about him showing him to be a coward? -PanSola 08:21, 11 March 2006 (CST)


 * It's in the manual PanSola, I missed your note. You can see on the history page who posted the info, just ask me on my talk page if I have not responded. Reverting. Take it up with ANet. --Karlos 21:06, 22 March 2006 (CST)
 * Well, I see three options:
 * 1. Include in the description some cowardly traits of Shiro.
 * 2. Remove "cowardly" from his description, consider the description of him mentions nothing that suggests cowardness. Unless you are somehow obliged to quote the manual word for word.
 * 3. Add the sentence "It is also unknown why he is considered a coward."
 * If #1 is not possible then I'd rather pick 2 over 3. The way it's written now seems to expect the reader already know him to be a coward, which is not true. -SolaPan 21:13, 22 March 2006 (CST)
 * And I'm not sure whether you mean "The manual said he's a coward", or "The manual described some cowardly action of Shiro." -SolaPan 21:14, 22 March 2006 (CST)
 * I think that in the Eastern cultures, one definition of a traitor is a coward because he does not have the quality to have allegiance, choosing the cowardly way out. In this case, I would believe that killing a "helpless" charge is also cowardly. Also, in some eastern cultures the Emperor had the Mandate of Heaven, so if Shiro could not find the strength to follow the path of Heaven, he would be a coward. --Ravious 22:20, 22 March 2006 (CST)


 * The cowardly thing he did (in my eastern-but-not-so-far-eastern culture) is he killed an unarmed man who entrusted him with his life. Where I come from you tell the person you can longer work as their bodyguard and then challenge them, not use your most trusted position as a tool to "cowardly" strike down your foe.
 * Anyways, the sentence is verbatim from the book. Aside from that, you seem to be the only challenging that what he did was a very cowardly act. So, in addition to the options above I would like to add:
 * 4. Leave it as is because it's fairly clear what "cowardly" deed the sentence is referring to and it's very clear that ANet plans to keep it cowardly (i.e. we didn't discover he found out the Emperor was a drug dealer) because they called it cowardly. --Karlos 04:40, 23 March 2006 (CST)

section 0 vs History
I find them highly redundent in nature, though vary in the detail they include. Does anyone oppose me merging the info into one single narration? -SolaPan 15:49, 25 March 2006 (CST)


 * I do. I wrote it this way specifically to separate the lore and history and fairy tale from the stuff that interests the average Joe who wants to farm and want sot quickly know who this Shiro guy is. They use this style a lot in wikipedia and I like it. If you look up most terms, you will find a quick basic summary that tells you what that term is and then there will be sections going into great detail about all things related. I believe we should do this with any concept or character we are talking about. --Karlos 21:43, 25 March 2006 (CST)

Is Shiro a Kurzick?
Image captured from the cinematic trailer.

I find it a reasonable conjecture. -SolaPan 16:03, 25 March 2006 (CST)


 * Why do you say that? --Karlos 21:44, 25 March 2006 (CST)


 * Maybe that pic isn't clear enough, but overall his face seems to have the same Kurzick aspect (white-ish with patterns). And those are definitely not necro scar patterns.   ... thus I suppose they could be regular scars.  Anyways his face looks relatively white in other shots from the cinematic too, at least to me. -SolaPan 09:01, 26 March 2006 (CST)


 * Hmmm, the marks on the face seem similar to Kurzick marks, but his whiteness and their "paleness" are different. They are mostly "grey" in color. We could put a note that he "looks" somewhat Kurzick. --Karlos 18:37, 26 March 2006 (CST)


 * I don't belive Shiro to be anything specific other than a canthan. The marks on his face are from battle scars they are not elaborate designs like the Kurzicks use on their faces.--The King Tarosian 01:26, 2 May 2006 (CDT)

Profession
Between Warrior and Assassin, if one is going to get removed, I would remove Warrior instead of Assassin. Currently the only evidence he may be warrior, according to info I had exposure to, is the fact that a Shiro's Sword exists. On the other hand, the weapon we actually saw him using are daggers, and his attack style fit closer to that of an assassin rather than a warrior.

Thus I have added the assassin profession back. -PanSola 00:59, 1 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Care to share your reasons for thinking he is an assassin, I cannot think of one, and while you did mention them up there, you did not say what they were. On the flip side, Shiro uses two SWORDS (not daggers) as evident by his sword available in the game and requiring 15 Swordsmanship (implying he was a super warrior). His skills are those of superman so it's not easy to read from them anything. There is a Riposte stance a double strike attack a life stealing stance and the Shiro bomb plus banishment. In addition, his size, his fighting style in the cuscene, the fact that he is a body guard, all those suggest that he is a warrior.
 * Please share with us your reasons for believing he is an assassin. --Karlos 03:04, 1 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Um, Shiro's Blades is a weapon that require 15 daggery mastery. That is (appearantly, no hard proof) the weapon that he killed the old emperor with, the weapon that he got killed by, and the weapon he used when players faced him.  Plus one of his skills shadowsteps him all over the place.  Those are the primary reasons for me to believe him to be an Assassin.  At least a secondary, though I'm more inclined to consider him an Assassin primary.  -PanSola 03:07, 1 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I was oblivious to the existence of these blades. I saw the sword myself, but didn't bother look at Assassin stuff. The shadow stepping was not that big of a deal because even Eles can now shadow step, so it's not confined to Assassins. --Karlos 04:02, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Heh, what is the Ele shadowstepping skill? The quick reference list isn't updated with Factions stuff yet, and Shadow Step hasn't been updated to reflect the ele skill(s).  My impression (based on what I read in interviews pre-release, so not surprised that I'm wrong on this) was that Eles would need to take Assassin as secondary to do the teleport-PBAoE trick. -PanSola 04:14, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
 * BTW, a critique on your support of him being warrior (though I'm not really interested in arguing him NOT being warrior, just pointing out what I perceive as flaws in your arugment):
 * 1. Size. I do not believe there is a precedent in GuildWars where warrior are bigger than other prfoessions, assume same level and same general 3D model.  Ie, a Level 24 White Mantle Warrior boss may be big, but no bigger than a Level 24 White Mantle Ranger Boss.  A Level 24 Stone Summit Beastmaster boss might be much much bigger than a level 24 stone summit ranger boss, but that's the size of the beast, and when compared to a Level 24 Doyak-riding Monk boss, they are on the same scale again.  So Shiro's size, no matter how big he actually his, does not constitute an argument that suggests his profession.
 * 2. Bodyguard. In GuildWars there is actually a precedent of bodyguards NOT being warriors.  Namely, the GvG bodyguards who are E/Mo (or Mo/E, can't really tell).  In terms of outside the guildwars world, Ninjas are also a very viable choice for Bodyguards.
 * Again, not trying to start a debate on whether Shiro is a warrior or not (I'm happy enough having him classified as W/A). Just pointing out that two (out of many) of your arguments are rather weak. -PanSola 04:29, 1 May 2006 (CDT)


 * You love to argue even when the argument is won. :( Human warriors in the game are bigger than everyone else in terms of muscles and size, he's huge. I was referring to the rest of the Imperial Guards being warriors. --Karlos 05:16, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
 * It's not that I like to argue. I'm just interested in getting the details and technicalities straight, regardless of the bigger picture. -PanSola 05:25, 1 May 2006 (CDT)

Why do we even need to give him a proffesion? He dosent use any of their skills so it shouldnt matter, just put him as a boss.

The story of Shiro
It strongly reminds me of MacBeth (-: -PanSola 03:14, 1 May 2006 (CDT)


 * The last part (that by succeeding to return to mortal form, he made his own defeat, and ensuing Envoy punishment, certain) is so like the quote from Lady MacBeth: 'Tis better to be that which we destroy, then by destruction dwell in doubtful joy. :) --Karlos 04:28, 2 May 2006 (CDT)

Levels
For curisity's sake, can someone list where/when he is Level 30, and where/when he is Level 31? Just wondering. -PanSola 03:57, 1 May 2006 (CDT)


 * He's 30 when first encountered in the Sunjiang District mission. He's just sitting there floating in a bubble, but you can walk up to him and pat him on the butt. Then he is 31 in the final mission. --Karlos 03:59, 1 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Anon reports lv31 in Sunjiang District. Does he appear twice with different levels, or has his level changed when first encountered? - 12:49, 21 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Why change Shiro's level back to level "30~31"? If you target Shiro in the Sunjiang District mission you can see that he is level 31. If you find any places where he is level 30, then post them.
 * I didn't change it back, I just asked the question. - 07:42, 23 June 2006 (CDT)

The profession debate again
I think his profession should be set to "unknown". He doesn't use any warrior or assassin skills, and his weapons are nothing to go by. A ritualist can wield daggers -- doesn't make her an assassin. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 09:09, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Well he makes great use of the Dagger Mastery attributes. | Chuiu 19:28, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
 * I don't know about him being warrior, but I definitely support the claim of him being an Assassin. -PanSola 21:58, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Doesn't use any assassin skills = not an assassin. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 00:52, 2 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Who but assassins are capable of shadow stepping? Karlos claimed Eles can, though I haven't found any ele skills that does it. -PanSola 01:18, 2 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Ride the Lightning Skuld  01:42, 2 May 2006 (CDT)
 * While both Ride the Lightning and Shadowstepping teleports people, Ride the Lightning specifically says "You ride the lightning to target foe", which invokes the aid of Dwayna; whereas Shadow step calls upon the powers of Lyssa. Shiro's skill specifically shadow steps, as opposed to just teleporting. -PanSola 01:57, 2 May 2006 (CDT)
 * This is a silly debate because it is not a given that anything that shadowsteps must be an assassin. It may just be his Envoy powers that he is using there, which should make his profession Envoy. That is, after all, the only thing about him that is confirmed. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 02:28, 2 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I see that Karlos sees fit to simply revert anything he dislikes. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 02:26, 2 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Only revert once please. That means no re-reverts until the issue is fleshed out.  Whether or not Karlos' reversion was appropriate, the re-reversion isn't helping the atmosphere for the discussion/debate.  Of course, now that it is re-reverted, everyone please refrain from re-re-reverting. -PanSola 02:41, 2 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Eh, now that it is re-re-reverted, I implore everyone to refrain from  re-re-re-reverting. -PanSola 02:44, 2 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Sorry about that, I was reverting the profession part, not the edit to his story. I did it while playing the game. :) Apologies again. Now, please leave the profession until you can explain how he is using weapons with req 15 in the professions but is NOT of those professions. This is what did it for me, this is how I said he is a warrior, this is how I was convinced by PanSola that he is an assassin. --Karlos 02:46, 2 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Simple. He is an Envoy. Do we have any clue what stats Envoys have? No. For all we know, he may have 16 in every attribute from every profession. It is simply conjecture at the moment that Shiro is a warrior or assassin. This is similar to the claim that the Titans are the Charr gods that many people believe, but being conjecture it is not reflected in this wiki. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 03:01, 2 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Shiro the human, the one you fight in the mission, is not an envoy. Next arguemnt. --Karlos 04:03, 2 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Proof that he is human? &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 04:04, 2 May 2006 (CDT)
 * I thought the whole point of trying to kill Emperor/Togo was to become a mortal human again...? -PanSola 04:23, 2 May 2006 (CDT)


 * He wanted to "return"/"break the curse". He never says he wanted to become human again. The Envoys are convinced that if he is not stopped then he will destroy the universe. Hard to believe a mere human can manage that. Anyway, I don't know what the point of this argument is as Karlos is convinced that he is right, by which license he feels free to mock me. So be it. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 04:34, 2 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I "live" again. What do you think that means? And he kept saying through the final mission that he is going to kick out butts and we killed him in 2 minutes and 42 seconds. I guess he and the envoys over-estimated his haxor powers. I was not mocking you, I posted a reply and an apology on my talk page regarding that. Finally, of course I think I am right, would you still be in this debate if you thought you were wrong? If you're going to pull a "Karlos thinks he's always right, there's no way I can win this debate" then I advise you to look at the profession debate. Pansola made a strong argument, I tossed the towel right away. And even if you can't beat me, I am not the wiki, and if more people agree with you or your logic, know that your edit will win in the end. --Karlos 05:27, 2 May 2006 (CDT)


 * There are many things that live that aren't human. Furthermore, the debate is whether Shiro retained his Envoy powers after he killed Togo or not. Clearly he has skills that no human possesses (that we know of). It doesn't freaking matter how fast you killed him (though 2:42 is way too long. Bring a KD/Gale warrior, a couple of Galers and an Earthbind and you can keep him on the ground for nearly all of th 1:30 ish it takes to kill him). The Envoys clearly believe that he is dangerous enough to destroy the universe. You haven't yet provided any answer as to how a human can do that. PanSola's and your arguments suffer from the same faults -- that you look at some incidental features (his blades, or that he shadow steps) and conclude that he must be X or Y. It might simply be that Shiro transcends the narrow professional boundaries normal people are subject to. You seem to believe strongly that he must be a warrior, but belief is not proof. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 05:58, 2 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Actually in my case, it's an "and". Eg. his daggers AND he shadowsteps.  I don't care whether he retains envoy powers or not.  I judge his profession by his weapon of choice and the style of his skills.-PanSola 06:30, 2 May 2006 (CDT)


 * You want me to prove to you that he returned to human form? You don't believe him? You think the ritual failed? You doubt Togo was really the Emperor's half-brother? His cousin twice removed? That would have been cool though, after he kills Togo, Togo's ghost says "Ha ha! I'm actually a descendant of King Adelbern and now you're going to come back to life as Prince Rurik! Cursed to an eternal life of cheesey one liners!" Wicked! :) --Karlos 04:32, 2 May 2006 (CDT)

Sorry to raise this zombie thread again, but in this instance I think I'm on Stabber's side. Shiro doesn't fit any standard profession template, and should therefore have his profession as Betrayer or some such. By the way, I don't agree with Stabber's retaliatory edit of Kuunavang to be R/E for the same reason. Neither would I ask for a profession to be stated for Glint. These are all characters that are not of any standard profession. F G 07:06, 7 May 2006 (CDT)
 * I still think weapon + skill charactics hold a lot of weight. For Kuunavang I have no problem with the E, though I don't see what would make her an R.-PanSola 15:47, 7 May 2006 (CDT)


 * That Corrupted Breath is a preparation, perhaps? F G 15:55, 7 May 2006 (CDT)

I'm resurrecting this again. The big argument for Shiro being an assassin is that he uses two swords. Swords. The manual calls them swords. They look like swords. He fights with them like swords, not little cutty/stabby knives. They're definitely used as swords when the two heroes try to wield them against Shiro. Even though the game engine says that Player Characters can only dual-wield daggers, the whole point of unique creatures like Glint or Shiro is that they break the rules (note all their crazy skills and immunities). It is not reasonable to say that Shiro must be using daggers simply because the game says you can only dual-wield daggers, despite the fact that his blades are long and are specifically referred to as swords.

Likewise, his entire interaction with Vizu, cursing her devious tricks and calling her a coward because she won't stand and fight, definitely doesn't peg him as a capital-A Assassin (as opposed to a lower-case-A assassin, which he is by virtue of having murdered the Emperor). The truth of the matter is that Shiro is a pretty direct guy in combat. He uses superior skill and overwhelming force to defeat his enemies in straight-on hand-to-hand battle. I wouldn't believe any Assassin would have been taken completely by surprise by Vizu's attacks.

Further, I think the labeling of unique bosses with professions is rather pointless. It's taxonomy for taxonomy's sake, without regard for the fact that calling him a Warrior or an Assassin says pretty much nothing useful about his abilities. He uses absolutely no skills form any profession. In addition, it's not like anti-warrior tricks are particularly effective against him (and, for that matter, Kuunavang's spells seem rather hard to interrupt and don't work with Mantras - pretty much none of the standard Elementalist-specific counters apply to her). Shiro is, above all else, a unique boss creature. His abilities have nothing to do with any of the PC professions and, taken together, don't lean in any particular way (Is Echoing Banishment anything like any warrior or assassin skill in terms of effects and flavor? How about Meditation of the Reaper?). To slap W/A or A/W or A or W or whatever on the page is simply disingenous, as it doesn't actually say anything about his nature of abilities, but makes it look like he is officially without-a-doubt a Warrior/Assassin, whereas the reality is that we're all just guessing wildly or splitting hairs to try to find some random reason why he would actually belong to any particular class. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 02:00, 15 June 2006 (CDT) )


 * I don't care much for putting a profession on him. However, when we had "Profession:Unknown" people were changing it to Warrior or Assassin all the time. Same thing for Kuunavang. I think we should just place a note that his profession is "speculated" and not a fact.
 * As far as your arguments, you are omitting that "Shiro's Blades" the set of dual-wielded swords are, in fact, daggers, not swords. And if your assassin wields them, he will look exactly like Shiro. --Karlos 05:14, 15 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Use "Profession: --" or "Profession: Special" or Profession: "Unique Boss" or whatever, then. The basic problem is just that "Unknown" invites people who think they "know" to change it. Whereas the real point is that his profession is, for all practical purposes, unknowable (or, if you prefer, irrelevant).
 * Shiro's Blade: I was trying to directly address that. Forgive me if it came out too clunkily. The fact is, Shiro's Blades are "Daggers" because of an artifact of the game rules, which says that only Daggers are dual-wieldable. Thus, to make a dual-wieldable sword item, the designers necessarily had to make it a Dagger. We can't say anything about them because there is also Shiro's Sword. Between that and their ridiculous requirements, I'd be hard-pressed to say these things are anything other than easter egg / gimmick items. He doesn't wield them like daggers. His interactions with Vizu indicate that he knows jack about being an Assassin. How does he dual-wield them, then? Well, everything about Shiro is about breaking the game (I mean, look at the skills - the way you beat him is that Kuunavang gives you game-breaking skills, too). Rules that apply to player characters, such as "all Daggers and only Daggers come in pairs", just don't affect Shiro at all. In order to turn his items into player-usable things, though, the rules have to be re-applied (if Shiro's Blades did a bazillion points of damage and were the only non-dagger weapon that could double-strike, would anyone who beat the game use anything else?). That's the main thing that makes Shiro's Blades a type of Daggers and, as I've seen no evidence to the contrary, it is the only reason they are Daggers.
 * Thus, Shiro is not an Assassin. You could argue that his profession should say "Warrior" because he is a lower-case-w warrior and defnitely acts like a big melee-focused bruiser, but, again, labeling him as such would be useless since he doesn't have an aura or use any warrior skills or drop any warrior green items or anything like that. Analysis of the game mechanics here yields nothing useful. I could just as easily make up silly arguments like "Shiro uses a skill called Riposting Shadows, but the other Riposte skills (the Deadly and Vanilla Ripostes) work only with a sword, so clearly he must be using swords. Oh, look, he dropped a sword!" Then someone else could say "But it's Riposting Shadows! Assassins use shadows!" &c. He just has no attributes that clearly mark him as anything. But the flavor here does clearly indicates that Shiro is not an assassin, and that should trump any game-mechanical argument based on a single attribute of a single weird item that works completely differently in your hands than it does in his. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 11:31, 15 June 2006 (CDT) )

Shiro's Fate
Damned to an eternity of being the most farmed creature this side of Rago Kindlerock! Dang! Those envoys are cruel. :) --Karlos 04:33, 2 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Not really. The end game items are not farmable as you get one per character and it takes about 20 hours of playtime to get a character there. About the most that's likely is that someone makes a bunch of +5e weapons to sell back in Tyria. But that will become unprofitable real fast, and people will stop doing it. The only other thing I can see is KD warriors figuring out that they can hench Shiro and start charging for "run"s. But, any player who just beat Raisu Palace can beat Shiro, so these runners won't find too many customers either, I don't think. To be honest, I am quite satisfied with the way they designed the endgame area. F G 07:11, 7 May 2006 (CDT)


 * The endgame area is really nice (and a HUGE improvement from simply getting teleported to Drognars), but I cant hide that I was a bit turned down by the fact that my party managed to kill the "super-mega-hyped-up" end-of-game boss in about 2 minutes on the first try. --Xeeron 07:37, 7 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Rumor has it that he was toned down to be henchable, as that's one of the goals anet has, is to make everything henchable. LordKestrel 09:37, 7 May 2006 (CDT)


 * He's not very henchable, unless you dedicate yourself to neutralizing his skills. I have seen that good parties kick his butt in 2 minutes and average or bad ones can keep grinding it out for 5-10 minutes.


 * I've henched him with my assassin under 2 mins. I'm pretty sure anyone can do it. --Theeth (talk)   05:31, 15 June 2006 (CDT)

Bad sentence
I went over and proofread this article, but this sentence has two problems, one of which I can't fix:
 * They arrive just in time, but when Master Togo approaches the throne, Shiro makes a surprise appearance, knocks everyone down, and abducts Togo to the Imperial Sanctum before anyone can react.

The flow is horrible and might be better off as two sentences. More jarring to me was that you don't "abduct someone to" somewhere. I haven't finished the game, so I can't figure out if it should be something like "abducts Togo and takes him to" or "flees to" or whatever. --68.142.13.105 11:19, 10 May 2006 (CDT)

2-man Shiro Farming
A guildmate and I have evolved the following build that kills Shiro in between 1 and 1.5 minutes.

With Celestial Storm in one of the optional slots.

We bring six henchies (no monks), but they are completely unnecessary. The only reason we bring them is so that Shiro banishes one of them at the start, usually one of the henchie necros. Six other players would make this even easier.

What is the point, you ask? No point at all. 212.202.233.2 11:00, 25 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Wouldn't Price of Failure be better than Spirit of Failure in the necro build? You have no points in Inspiration... 85.227.10.132 11:33, 25 May 2006 (CDT)

This is not 2 man. Skuld  11:38, 25 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Yup, it's not 2-man if you have 6 other people serving as punching bags. I can solo any creature in the game, if only I had 7 punching bags with me. :) --Karlos 14:18, 25 May 2006 (CDT)


 * The question is... can it be done with just these two? I can see it if the necro is banished because the ele can get him back with a single Storm. If the ele is banished, it's gg. 149.9.0.25 14:37, 25 May 2006 (CDT)