Talk:Abaddon's Gate (mission)

I don't know where to put this, but Abaddon takes an amount of damage that seems to be about 1/10th of his lifebar whenever you bind him again. Shido 01:54, 8 November 2006 (CST)

Hex/Condition Duration
From what I could tell, Hexes and Conditions only last a whopping 1/3 amount of the time. It seemed that Barbs and Faintheartedness was falling off of Abaddon in only 10 seconds. Anyone care to verify? --Zinger314 05:53, 2 November 2006 (CST)
 * This is exactly why Wastrel's Worry is so effective on him. See the strategy I added.  I beat this mission with my mesmer with only henchmen and heros.  Time = 15:48 master award.  My self is equiped with Extingush and WW.  And had Zhed go E/Mo with Heal Party with another Extingush.  Master of Whisper with Blood is Power.  And the rest is henchmen (Warrior, Archer, Holy, and 2 healer). Lightblade 12:05, 3 November 2006 (CST)

"Health degeneration works against Abaddon, but beware that hexes and conditions last a shorter time, as they do for all bosses." The last part is not true. I believe you that they are shortened but only tyrian bosses have shortened hex durations.--Coloneh RIP 17:23, 19 November 2006 (CST)
 * It can be done with heros and henchmen, but I don't like it, you just need a solid group, good builds and focus you fire, I did the masters the first time, 3rd time I did my best run, exactly 12:00mins.
 * Tyrian bosses have +3 health regen and hex and conditions shortened. Cathan bosses have +3 health regen and deal double damage. Elonian bosses have all these unfair bonuses. Abaddon doesn't seem to have health regen though. Utaku Mu Dan

A Work of Pure Genius
Who ever put up the stragety for solo henchy-ing it is a genius. I tried to beat it with other variations and none of them worked, so I was skeptical about this one. It requires alot of effort (of course) but it works. Finally, I beat NightFall. Thanks alot! ^_^ 68.205.27.213 15:59, 6 November 2006 (CST)

It is kinda bleh. Manual activating of Light of Deliverance? That's a lot of work. First time I attempted the mission, it didn't occur to me I could pull back up that path, and I didn't have any heal party type of skill, and I had no self healing. Monks were running low on energy all the time but I managed to pull through and did this on my first try. The suggested way of doing this is way too defensive IMO and takes way too long. Just put things like Ballad of Restoration and Song of Restoration on your paragon hero and pack some selfheal like heal sig and you are all set. This will allow you to get more damage and finish it quicker. --Spura 07:46, 7 November 2006 (CST)

Spura has mentioned a very good point, the monks in the suggested team build are useless beside healing. So I think the monks can bring some paragon skills(for example some motiviation skills but not leadership skills) to buff the team. It is possible coz i) light of deliverance cost 5 en only, the en of hero monks are always full, ii) divine favour is useless if the monks mainly use party healing skills!! There are enough attribute points to be spent on paragon attribute. -- Hokit 15:08, 8 Nov 2006 (GMT+8)

I use a motivation Paragon... this mission is unbelievable easy with it and bot healers (NOT heroes). Done in 10 min. Indeed, this mission seems to be designed for Paragons, it is the only thing you need. --Mercurio 13:49, 14 November 2006 (CST) wastrels worry arrg its gonna make me cry. pretty lethal on abaddon just having a mesmer and a necro biping the mesmer. constant spam will kill abaddon really fast.

Did it with 3 heros and the rest Henchies and got Masters title, nearly fell asleep. Paragon hero with regen shouts, and two monks with light of deliverance. Just turn every monk skill off other than light of deliverance, give both the party heal skill as well (but keep it off). I think I used party heal manually all of 2-3 times. Having done it that way I would say that is the very safe way, you could do it with more damage for a faster run, but if you want to be garunteed into the throne room I found what I ran with to be easiest. Hopeful 17:49, 25 November 2006 (CST)

Completed at 10:43 with heros, henchies, and a friend. It wasn't even hard! Used 1 prot monk(Tahlkora), 2 healing monks(henchmen), orders necro, command paragon (fall back, never give up/surrender, incoming) Devona, dervish friend, and me, a crit defense assassin. All we did was follow the natural flow of battle and fought left side, right side, middle, fell back and repeated. If a claw got in the way we killed it, but only if it was in the way. And all my heros had res sig. It's funny because the first time I used the same strategy w/out my friend and did it in 15 minutes. But when I tried to do it with my friend's heros we completely failed. Only when I treated him as the dervish henchmen were we able to do it super easily. Who says you need to spam light of deliverance to beat this, I didn't even have it with me. And this was beaten after incoming had it's debuff. - Isidore Robespierre

A Dervish can get masters with a 1 hero, 6 henchie group of Gehraz, Mhenlo, Kihm, Sogolon, Cynn, and Devona. Take Master of Whispers or Olias with Undertaker Insignias on all his armor. Make him a N/Me and use most of the skills recommended to shut down Shiro in the mission before this (Spiteful Spirit, Price of Failure, Insidious Parasite,Complicate, Cry of Frustration, Web of Disruption, Well of Darkness and Resurrection Signet seem to work). Dervish should take Avatar of Melandru, Mystic Regeneration, Vital Boon, Faithful Intervention, and Lightbringer's Gaze. The rest can be scythe attacks as you prefer. You don't have to carry any rez, it won't be used alot and the henchies can do it alot faster. Instead just focus on timing and making sure you get rid of any claws first.

You can sub Devona with a player who is willing to pack high damage skills. This takes between 15-17 minutes, don't rush Abaddon. Pick at him as you go. Instead get out in plenty of time to put any buffs back up before the monoliths respawn. You will have enough time to cast lightbringer's gaze on him once, engage him with an attack with a 5 second recharge, hit him again with it and run as soon as it lands. By then you'll have enough energy to get Avatar of Melandru back up. First time totally with henchies (as a test, which spawned 6 claws in a row) took me just over 20 minutes, but I went back in two more times with a human paragon each time and we had 16:30 and 15:21 on those. StarrTheInsane 23:58, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

Nothing so hard in doing this mission with heroes/henchies. I have completed this with my warrior and dervish and I had both times full party of heroes/henchmen. --WertyG 11:23, 12 May 2007 (CDT)

I agree it's not difficult to do this mission with henchmen and heroes ; still, you'll likely have to create specific builds for your heroes to master this mission. This is especialy true about your healers : this mission is really very different from most others and you cannont rely on clasic healing builds. Once you have good healers, it goes easily.Yves 06:15, 18 May 2007 (CDT)

About the team build
Hokit 02:11, 21 November 2006 (CST)
 * After reading the comment of u guys, I have changed the Light of Deliverance team build to Motiviation Paragon team build. The new build is much more easier to use and is not as annoying as the previous build~!! Thanks all~!! :P

Hokit 22:14, 21 November 2006 (CST)
 * Hey guys, the 2 LoD hero monk builds is outdated coz it is very annoying!! Please dun use that build unless u dun want to pay 7k to buy the paragon skills!! Using LoD monks build need a lot management but not a little coz the hero monks dun want to use LoD all the time. This problem occurs coz the hero monks AI dun have the concept about party healing(eg Heal Party, LoD )!! They dun know when should they use party healing, so they try to avoid using those skills all the time. I have tired to group with a hero monk which brings no skill except LoD, then I keep using blood of master to reduce my HP, and I found that the hero monk dun use LoD even my HP is nearly zero. It is a really terrible problem of the AI, that's why I say u need to click the LoD on the hero's skillbar to force them to use party healing skills.

Just used LOD build w one monk--let AI do the skills...both warrior heros...monk hench...hench warrior & paragon...me - ranger - took poison/bleeding....no one came close to dying...very easy...only took 10:51...did not run up hill and around...left/right/middle...then repeat...Thanks for suggestions...71.214.40.94 21:42, 8 December 2006 (CST)Eldest Archer

Mutant Monkeytoes 15:32, 25 November 2006 (CST)
 * The only skill I have found necessary on heroes is extinguish. Just set up all heroes in party with this, have 4 monks, mix of hero/henchie, and there will be no problems at all.  Everything else is irrelevent.  Just a couple random damage dealers.  Just keep monk heroes set up as general healers, and it's all good.  Just be aware of timing.

-As a side note to Hokit, you may want to reconsider the forcing of LOD, if you are going to force a skill to heal the party its better to use the normal none elite skill Heal Party as it has no restriction on health %. Hopeful 19:03, 25 November 2006 (CST)
 * I have had no trouble using the LOD setup for the monks, as your experiment shows, the monks AI is infact better than you think. It will not use a heal party skill when only 1 person's health is low, it's a waste of a group heal.  (waste meaning either high energy cost OR puts the skill on recharge for when it would have been more useful)  If you bring a single target heal skill in the skill lineup, and have it disabled, simply click it to force a single target heal.  Generally the AI will heal the most in need.  As for LOD issues, I noticed few, and only on 1-2 occassions had to queue it, otherwise after everyone was hit, the monks would heal the entire party.  Also as I stated I did have to manually queue the party heal skill a few times, but this is because I am smarter than the AI.


 * To Hopeful : May be the AI of hero is updated again these few days so that the hero AI is smarter now. As i have give up the LoD monk build long times ago, i'm sorry that i dunno if the build works or not now. I just can tell you that the LoD build is invented 3 days after the release of of nightfall, at that time the LoD build works but was very annoying. Hokit 02:38, 27 November 2006 (CST)

Went back to double check and experiment, you are correct you do have to manage the heros often, even with turning all other skills off, they use the skill too little.
 * after reading these strategies, it makes me wonder if you might be better off using Zhed as one healer (especially if you include a Heal Party) and maybe throw in Ward of Stability. As with PvP, heal party usually ends up on an E/Mo because of the high cost, but you could throw on LoD for a low cost spam and you should have no energy problems (set Zhed on avoid combat).  IMO healers should focus on heal/protect of individuals rather than on the group since divine favor only heals the caster, but the exception might be this mission with LoD or with a good battery necro or paragon.  --146.122.71.143 14:24, 8 December 2006 (CST)

Team build worked great. I didn't take light of deliverance though, and beat it in 13:03 as a Forceful Hammer War with "Go For the Eye's", 1 BL Dunkoro, 1 Anthem of Fury Paragon Hero, a Sword - Song of Purification Goren, 2 Healer Henchies, Paragon Henchie, and Fighter Henchie for "Charge!". Got Master's 2nd try, try one I ran out of quick rezs and the KD's kept my Healers from Rezing me...bum way to lose...2nd try was flawless only change was I switched form KD to Damage Hammer. No Hero Management at all either. I did my thing, called targets, dealt damage, the hero's + Henchies filled in the rest. --Amokk 00:16, 10 December 2006 (CST)


 * Hey guys, I have to mentioned again that a motivation paragon hero + 2 henchman monks are very enough keep your team alive, u dun need any other thing (eg. LoD, heal party E/Mo, 4 monks, charge, battery necro, ward) to help the team to survice. Hokit 21:35, 10 December 2006 (CST)

Abaddon Dances!
I just tried this, I went and stood on the bridge made of spirits and danced, and to my surprise Abaddon started DANCING! The funny thing is, is at a certain point of his dance, you die lol. What a nice little joke put in by ArenaNet. Figured it'd be nice for you guys to know this little tidbit.Kijik 03:55, 28 December 2006 (CST)


 * Confirmed, I posted the relevant dance clips on Guru. Thanks for the tip! --Zinger314 13:49, 19 November 2006 (CST)
 * I don't think the whole party has to dance, just one person. I took Heroes + Henchmen, and danced which worked (henchmen dancing doesn't count as dancing for NPC responses). --Curse You 02:49, 1 December 2006 (CST)
 * I got served! The shame of it all! -Isidore Robespierre
 * Curse You, I think it means that all player party members must /dance, although the wording is a bit ambiguous. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] (talk|contribs) 02:48, 2 December 2006 (CST)
 * I just tried it out with two guildmates. First I danced, nothing happened.  Then a guildmate and myself danced, nothing happened.  Finally, when all three of us danced, Abaddon danced. --Curse You 16:05, 4 December 2006 (CST)

Re: Jyro X's edit about the "you got served tripe" being untrue, check this out:

It's true. &mdash;Dr Ishmael (talk|contribs) 20:31, 5 December 2006 (CST)
 * Was that added in a subsequent update? Because I know for the first 5 days after Nightfall's release, that text did NOT pop up. — Jyro X [[Image:Darkgrin.jpg|25px]] 21:10, 5 December 2006 (CST)

I wish it killed him after he stopped dancing...... I am having a LOT of trouble on this misison.....--Runar Funtime 21:47, 13 December 2006 (CST)

It says "You got served" now? holy heck that's funny, it didn't say that for me, but that bit is hilarious.Kijik 03:54, 28 December 2006 (CST)

The funny thing is that Abaddon's dance seems to be randomly choosen between all the character dances. I've seen necro, warrior and monk--Crigore 16:53, 9 March 2007 (CST)

Time
I killed him in 16.22 and I have Master Reward so I think the time is wrong but I don't have the real one.


 * And near the top of this page, Lightblade said he finished it in 15:48. I'm pretty sure my own time was >15 as well, but I don't remember.
 * The page used to say "<20" for Master's, but someone changed it to "<15" a couple days ago. I'll revert it back to 20 until someone can show a screenshot of a time between 15<x<20 that only got Expert's.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] (talk|contribs) 12:26, 22 December 2006 (CST)

best time?
What's everyone's best time here ? I did it in 7 mins X seconds (me, a friend 6 heroes) -- Torins (talk) 13:17, 25 December 2006 (CST) Me, friend, and 6 hero's got a time of 6 minutes and 50-some seconds. We were running with our W/N's using Grenth's Balance and Nuker Heros using Savannah Heat. — Jyro X 03:57, 28 December 2006 (CST)

didn't take a screenshot, but I got just over 12 minutes on my first try with a PUG group. I was using a LoD monk, and the other monk happened to be doing the same thing. We never even left the center, and the thought of doing so never even occurred to us. Our group had more trouble killing Shiro in the previous mission than this guy. Pluto 03:31, 31 December 2006 (CST)

My best is only 12:00mins. 7:12, 15 January 2007 (EST)


 * eyes pop out of head* You guys got THAT TIME ON IT!? I can't even BEAT HIM on my Dervish.....--Runar Funtime 17:58, 13 January 2007 (CST)

Very first attempt, my best friend and me and 6 heros got 12:34. She was using her necro, I was using my ranger, and I think we had Dunkoro x2(healer setup), Tahlkora(prot IIRC), Koss(basic axe setup), Zhed(Searing Flames), and Morgahn(basically a spear master setup). No Heal Party, no Light of Deliverance, no Fall Back or Aria of Restoration, no Cautery Signet, no Restore Conditions, no real special preparations, and we still got masters without anyone dying even once. Talk about anti-climactic, Shiro was much tougher than this guy. You'd think being a god and master of the margonites and what not that he'd be attended to by more than just a few graven monoliths. DKS01 06:49, 24 January 2007 (CST)

On my first attempt, I went in with a PuG and somehow managed to get around 10 minutes. --Albinobird 21:53, 10 February 2007 (CST)
 * did on hard mode in 9:46 :)(look below at reversal of dmg

The boss battle is reminiscent of...
Hopefully I'm not the only one that sees a striking similarity between this boss battle and Andross from Starfox 64, Bongo Bongo  from The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, and Mazaal  from The Legend of Zelda: Minish Cap. Uh, nothing else to point out, but I thought it might go well in the trivia section. --Mafaraxas 01:49, 31 December 2006 (CST)


 * Eep, you're right. Now I'll be thinking of Abaddon whenever I play Zelda. >< Entropy 06:51, 24 January 2007 (CST)

This battle reminds me of the fight against C'Thun, a raid boss in WoW. --Lje 03:32, 29 January 2007 (CST)

Reminded ME of [Queen Zeal] from Chrono Trigger. (Rumors of it coming out on the Virtua Console soon!) BarGamer 21:14, 6 February 2007 (CST)

Reminded me of [castoth] from "Illusion of Time" ("Illusion of Gaia" in the US) on SNES. God I need to play that game again sometime. –Ichigo724 21:22, 6 February 2007 (CST)

Glitch
While I was defeating the last 2 monoliths, they started to spawn everytime they would die. I managed to defeat them everytime and after 10 or 11 spawns I finished the mission. Anyone does know what happened to me? Glenn 16:18, 26 January 2007 (CST)
 * This bug is mentioned in the article and why it happens is unknown I believe. It can also happen with torment claws. Gandorf 16:23, 26 January 2007 (CST)
 * No, I meant why I managed to finish the mission even with the glitch. In the article it's not mentioned. Glenn 16:35, 26 January 2007 (CST)
 * Abaddon takes some damage every time you bind him. I guess defeating the last two monoliths counts as binding him even if they respawn. So every time you killed them he took damage. --SET 21:54, 27 January 2007 (CST)


 * Actually tonight my husband and I figured out what causes this glitch. If you do not kill the monoliths close enough to the hands they will keep respawning and it will not bind him. All you have to do to fix this is aggro the monoliths from the middle and pull them over to the hand that is not bound kill them close to the hand and it will fix the spawning; then you can continue on like normal.

more claws?
did they add more torment claws or something or am i just unlucky? ive noticed a significantly larger amount of claws lately--Shale 10:22, 24 March 2007 (CDT)


 * Probably just bad luck. I just did it with only 2 claws showing up. --Tometheus 16:09, 24 March 2007 (CDT)


 * And me I got 0 when I killed him today. Kidbang 21:22, 16 July 2007 (CDT)

"Warrior" Dance
A recent edit added that Abaddon does the warrior dance. However, it appears to be a mix of dances. He starts by a 'shoo' going into throwing his hands in the air, then does part of the W dance, finishing by throwing the heavy metal horns from the necro dance. (Just watched it 5 times in the row with the same dance each time.) Removing that from the article. --Tometheus 16:09, 24 March 2007 (CDT)

Yup, now It seems to make a mix of different profession dances. --Crigore 09:40, 20 April 2007 (CDT)

Soloing
I've just done this "alone" with Norgu, Tahlkora, Dunkoro, Devona, Dervirsh henchie, Eve and Mhenlo. Done it in 17:45; in Master. I use many advices from the article. The one that say to immediatly go to left or right side where Monos will respawn as the main thing tha permit me to do this. Thanks. Now my primairy character has finished all 3 campaigns. §: TůζipVõrζąx Talk 04:14, 5 May 2007 (CDT)

Reversal of Damage
I just paid a guy 500g to "run" me through. he told me to die and he just stood there spamming RoD to kill Abby. Go figure! 68.8.50.113 02:00, 21 June 2007 (CDT)

Erm, how did he get around the 8-second recharge on RoD? Echo, Arcane Echo, halve recharge weapon mods...? He must have done something, since by itself RoD is not a spammable spell, and Abaddon + Monoliths attack more than every 8 seconds. (T/C) 02:04, 21 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Not to mention he'd run out of energy. The Hobo 01:04, 24 June 2007 (CDT)

It's completely possible. We finished the mission in less than 10 mins by having 4 people cast it as often as they could and bringing 1 monk to keep us alive.

best way to kill abbadon ever... did on hard mode in 9:46 ... Me (a monk) dunkoro, talkora and razah all with reversal of damage and weapon of remedy... abbadon takes around 560 every time he uses words of madness* which if you take out the right and left guys is about every 10 seconds)... and weapon of remedy takes away the dazed effect :).... i would reccomend this for any1 trying to do this &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.69.167.61 (contribs).


 * But still how did that guy get around the 8sec recharge? I'm curious --Robinhood
 * Update your knowledge of the skill. Reversal of Damage --Ufelder 03:23, 22 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Okay then, six-second recharge. Anything else constructive to add, Mr. Pretentious? [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 20:12, 1 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Bad day? I was not being intentionally offensive, and you have broken GW:NPA. Anything else constructive to add? --Ufelder 07:20, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
 * You're toeing the line on GW:NPA yourself, and you didn't really help the discussion with your first comment. You could've just said what the actual recharge was instead of basically calling Robinhood stupid for not knowing it.  I'd suggest you let the matter drop now.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 07:45, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I didn't call him stupid--I said to look at it himself. -_- Really, I meant nothing malicious when I posted that comment, and I'm sorry if you read anything more into it. --Ufelder 08:48, 3 August 2007 (CDT)

15 Minute Torment Claw Hell
I was just doing this and throughout the bulk of the mission there were at most one or two torment claws. Then just as I was about to go at him for the last time a torment claw comes up. Before I can kill that one another one comes up. Just as I was about to kill the first a third one comes up and so on until everyone was dead. Has this happened to anyone else? Is this something thats supposed to happen at the fifteen minute mark to indicate that you are taking too long, or do I just have the worst luck ever? Rubikon 18:52, 15 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Bad luck. The first time I fought him, two popped up. Had to avoid at least ten on my second character. The Hobo 23:54, 15 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Yep, bad luck. I've had it happen to me at earlier times too. I remember once having to kill four torment claws in a row before I moved back to the monoliths. --Thervold 14:03, 17 July 2007 (CDT)
 * It's not Bad Luck, it's Anet "random" thing that can happen. I was fighting Abaddon with Morghan set just of the bridge using Martyr and Signet of Remedy to get the party rid of the dazed. And then suddenly 3 "random" Torment Claws spawn in adjacent range of morghan, well you can guess what happened. It's just like all those monsters that "randomly" run into the direction of the nearest, biggest mob once their health gets low enough.

Easy build, 4 damage moments and masters
I ran: 1 melandru derv, 1 BiP necro, 2 monks (healboon), rest savannah heat eles, one had recovery to counter dazed....6 minutes and 26 seconds. And we almost wiped at 1 point.--82.157.101.73 15:32, 27 July 2007 (CDT)

Damage Reflection
How come Reversal of Damage, Vengeful Weapon, and Weapon of Remedy work...

...but Shield of Judgment, VWK, Holy Wrath, and Retribution do not?

In any case, though it's probably obvious, fast Master's with full Heroes/Hench is easy: Dunkoro and Tahlkora go Mo/Rt and take RoD, VW, and WoR; and Razah goes Rt/Mo with the same skillset. Player can go /Rt or /Mo too. Take a full party of Hench so you've got more people to spam those Reflection skills on. Reversal + Weapon is about 100 point damage to Abaddon... (T/C) 14:52, 11 August 2007 (CDT)

I was only aware that Shield of Judgment, VWK, Holy Wrath, and Retribution only damage if the foe attacks you (unlike Reversal of Damage, Vengeful Weapon and Weapon of Remedy which work on all damage) Shiverz 02:01, 18 August 2007 (CDT)

Glitch!!
Me, a friend and a party of heroes used the WoR, VW and RoD build to beat Abaddon, but after the cinematic we were still standing on the bridge, and hadn't been transported to the Throne of Secrets, but we could walk through the closed door and look at the area without the people or crafters in it. Has this happened to anybody else? 218.102.98.188 02:54, 13 August 2007 (CDT)

Battle Theme
This has been bugging me for a while now. The battle theme of Abbadon, the heavier version of the Nightfall theme, what is it on the Nightfall soundtrack? I want to do something with it. :P ~  Gold  Dean   - 21:08, 15 August 2007 (CDT)

rev of dmg exploit nerfed
Once again, the "king of all nerfs" (or DickNet) has nerfed the exploit of the reversal of damage. Abaddon no longers spam the Words of Madness spell when he is not chained down.--Dark Paladin X 23:28, 16 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Was worried when I couldn't kill him with my E/Mo + smiter heroes... Damn sneak updates! &mdash; Abedeus  [[Image:Sandstorm.jpg|19px]] 16:48, 18 August 2007 (CDT)
 * It wasn't a sneak update, it was quite clearly stated in the update notes. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 21:04, 18 August 2007 (CDT)

Oh great. When I was just focusing on beating NF again, they nerf Abaddon. So we have to do it the hard way now? I have NEVER done it the hard way... Snow Phoenix 21:48, 19 August 2007 (CDT)
 * The hard way was never that hard... --Kale Ironfist 21:55, 19 August 2007 (CDT)

Nope, it ain't hard. Got on ranger without the exploit Masters after 1st try, few days ago got Expert at Elementalist. A lot of degen + Extinguish (or Martyr on a war ;d) and Wastrel's Worry on Elementalist or Mesmer = win. &mdash; Abedeus   12:59, 20 August 2007 (CDT)