User talk:Tennessee Ernie Ford/Shortcuts

Templates R Us
I can help with the templates, get on irc sometime (I also have icq and msn installed) to talk over ideas. Have you seen [], especially the scalable and mini skill bars? -- ◄mendel► 17:23, 22 March 2009 (UTC)


 * wow, I haven't IRC'd in ...well, since I last replaced desktops. 
 * I didn't see the scalables/minis &mdash; those are probably better than what I had in mind (never mind able to execute). Thanks!


 * FWIW: I would never have thought to look in Style for templates. (1) I have been looking in Category:Templates and (2) the style guides that I have viewed don't seem to use templates much, outside of info boxes.  &mdash; Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 19:07, 22 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, you haven't looked enough, because Category:Templates/Skill display is a subcategory off Category:Templates, and it links the page I gave you. :) We have a great disorder in a large part of our templates, though.
 * If you use Opera, you don't need a client, and Chatzilla will do for Firefox. See GW:IRC for server and channel info. -- ◄mendel► 19:45, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Quotes and Dialogue
My initial suggestion: div.dialogue { background:url('http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/gw/images/a/ab/Graybar.png') 0px 0px repeat-y; } div.dialogue p { text-indent:-3em; margin-left:5em; }

Your improvement: div.dialogue { background:#faf0e6; padding:2em; margin-right:5em; margin-left:2em;} div.dialogue p { text-indent:-2em; margin-left:3em; }

I think with effort we could find a similar texture with that kind of effect, and make it not so flat-looking. We should show this to Quizzical (and Wolfie, if he's around) and give everyone a chance to comment before we implement this.

I also made the poem look better. :) -- ◄mendel► 23:07, 22 March 2009 (UTC) & 05:09, 23 March 2009 (UTC) (images added)


 * works for me &mdash; my so-called improvement is more of a different concept; depends what ppl like looking at. Regardless, it definitely needs something not so harsh (and flat); it's also the wrong ratio of ems, but I ran out of patience to keep guessing what might work. Anyhow, thanks for putting css together, being open to new stuff, and helping me put stuff together. Makes all of this more fun.  &mdash; Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 01:57, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, works! -TEF


 * I prefer the vertical bar versus the background. Would be nice if you can improve on it.  This way, if there's a long dialogue sequence, it's easy to keep scrolling down until the bar ends if you want to skip it, not much visual effort involved.  I also think it's better because there's no background behind the text if you actually do decide to read it.  In the end, it just plain looks better to me.  My $.02.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 17:43, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, the "easy to keep scrolling down" argument goes for both versions, so that's good. :) -- ◄mendel► 18:40, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

If in the second suggestion, you replace the background:#faf0e6; with the background:url; syntax, we could use a background texture such as this or that. Or we could roll our own using the symbols from Image:Identifyme-6.png (tinted grey on grey or beige, of course). How's that? -- ◄mendel► 19:12, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Textured backgrounds just make things harder to read, imo. The reason I prefer the bar is because it does not at all interfere with the text itself.  Fancy can be cool, but it can also be unnecessary and downright disruptive a lot of the time.  When it comes to business, or Mainspace articles in this case, I believe minimal and clear is best, but maybe I'm just being too serious.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 19:32, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Depends on the texture, I would think. I generally hate them for same reason, but sometimes they are great. I prefer a background b/c I prefer the dialogue to fade in importance relative to the rest of the article (IMO, graybar calls attention to it). I realize for completeness, the dialogue needs to be there. I think 99% of the non-unique visits to mission and quest pages aren't about the dialogue, they're about the walkthrough and advice. IMO, the dialogue should be easy to skip, easy to ignore.


 * Do ppl think it would be better to auto-hide dialogue instead? Users could press "show" if they really wanted it. That would remove the bar/texture/background issue, solve the easy-skip/ignore issue, and look reasonbly business-like.  &mdash; Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 19:54, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Auto-hide could be useful indeed. Most people watch the cinematics or read the dialogues once, and never bother again, while others never care in the first place.  I personally find it annoying to have to scroll sometimes because I'm looking for the Followup, which is always after the dialogues.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 20:30, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Auto-hide should only ever be used for nonessential info: looking through the page, I should be able to see what is on it. It is ok to hide navigantion elements because they're not really required, but hiding the dialogue would be a bad idea. -- ◄mendel► 22:12, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * So, dialogue is essential? I guess I would argue that it's necessary for thoroughness. Even my internal devil's advocate is having trouble making a case for essential. In Ruins of Surmia, I count (at my current skin/resolution) 3.5 screens of non-dialogue and 2 screens of dialogue. Do we really think that dialogue is more than half as useful to users as the rest of the article?


 * Maybe, for now, i'll improve my screen real-esate by editing my css to hide the dialogue.  &mdash; Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 22:34, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Many people visit quest/mission articles to see where they are in the storyline, at which point the Followup section is of utmost interest to them. It's also usually quite short, one or two lines, so I think it would be nice if it could be moved up above the dialogues, right after the Rewards.  This way, the only thing that's past the dialogue is notes and trivia type stuff, or walkthroughs, and the essential stuff is before it, thus making it unnecessary for most visitors to scroll at all.  Other than that, I still think that a background would be bad for dialogues, some of them can get pretty long, stretching or repeating the bg pic many times, plus you have the issue of different window sizes, how is it going to scale?  And any kind of colored bg, even just plain color fill, would actually draw attention to it, imo, unlike what TEF said.  The vertical bar does not need to be as prominent in the above example.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 23:15, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, maybe you could re-tint the gray bar and reupload it? I was shying away from the very light grays because I know you have problems to discern them with your setup. -- ◄mendel► 23:48, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't worry about my grays. ;) I think I have the problem fixed for the most part, anyway. What I was thinking is to keep it kind of dark, but make it slimmer, so it doesn't stand out so much, but is still reasonably visible. Maybe half or even quarter of its current width would probably be fine.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 02:12, 24 March 2009 (UTC)