Talk:Palm Strike

Does this have to follow a lead attack? --JoDiamonds 01:47, 25 March 2006 (CST)
 * Nope. That's what makes it elite. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 22:51, 30 April 2006 (CDT) )

How do you get a 19 dagger mastery? The most I can figure out would be 18 (sup + head + shrine + weapon(20%) ) --Phelios
 * Looking at the history, I think Stabbot just invented it. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 04:40, 26 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Theoretically, there could be a +1 Critical Strikes shield out there somewhere. Palm Touch would then be possible at 17, due to the fact it is a touch "Skill" rather than a Daggers Attack (unlike many of the other Critical Strikes skills). - Greven 08:01, 26 May 2006 (CDT)

Even if, theoretically, someone found a shield with +1 DM, you could not use it with daggers, and it is impossible to have any weapons but dagger with a +1 DM

Golden Eggs Give + 1 attibute for five minutes Big Bow 00:26, 9 May 2007 (CDT)

12+1+3 (headgear + sup rune) + blessing from lunar fortune + golden egg + weapon 1 = 19 dagger mastery, but palm strike is critical stikes skill. --WertyG 05:04, 17 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Except lunar fortunes and golden eggs didn't exist in May 2006. --Fyren 05:07, 17 May 2007 (CDT)


 * They exist now, that's what matters. The Hobo 23:55, 24 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Not when you're replying to messages about maximum attribute levels from a year ago. --Fyren 13:22, 25 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Oh? The Hobo 00:34, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

Whoaa, 5 energy now, niiice. :D Entheos Geon  ‎ 06:19, 17 August 2007 (CDT)


 * I was using it way back since Faction came out on my PvE'sin even with 10 energy. Pretty good skill considering the damage is armor ignoring.--Cosmitz 16:06, 19 August 2007 (CDT)

I think they should make this skill inflict cracked armor because there hasnt really been any big buff other than 5 nrg activation (not big buff really) and also whats the point of introducing a new condition with only a few skills to cause it and adding cracked armor infliction on this skill wouldnt be that overpowered and would be a good addition to one of the few skills to inflict cracked armor IMO ImpulseDestiny 05:01, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Related Skills
Why is this considered related to Iron Palm, other than the word palm, which doesn't mean anything, really--Daniel Rendat 01:52, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Touch skill, deals damage, considered part of a combo. Need anything more? --Kale Ironfist 02:28, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

*Sigh *
I don't want to start a revert war, so i'll just post my reasons for beleiving Iron Palm to be a related skill here. Then, when nobody reads this, i'll just quietly add it back at a time when the wiki is inactive and nobody will notice. No policies broken :-)

The reasons why these skills are related are as follows: --Cobalt | Talk  20:31, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
 * They are both Touch Skills
 * They are both touch skills that deal non-descript damage
 * They are both touch skills that deal non-descript damage and count as part of an assasin attack chain
 * They both have the word 'palm' in the name (no shit)
 * Both skill icons feature Disembodied red hands (true story)
 * Surely the fact that their both touch skills from the same prof that deal non-descript damage and count as part of an attack chain is reason enough...i've seen far more tenous links approved for counting as 'related'.

My favorite Assassin elite. Combine with Blinding Powder and Unseen Fury for unblockable onslaught.Kaze

Update
Seems imba now. AnOriginalConcept 03:10, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * MASSIVELY imba. Nerf imminent --Gimmethegepgun 04:03, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It's so good, lol [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 04:05, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * So lovely that buff ;D Weird that it is a PvP buff too --Birchwooda Treehug 05:31, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Now my PvE assassin is even more imba, not that he needed it.--Łô√ë [[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg|Ho ho ho.]]îğá †ħŕášħ 05:32, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Playing with this in pvp now... lolz. Cress Arvein [[Image:Cress sig.JPG]] 05:39, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * There's no way this won't be nerfed O_O I hope they don't over nerf it though... Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|18px]] (T/C) 13:40, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yup, cripple should be 8-10 seconds at 13 crit strikes, and damage a little lower, like 55 or something. Then it's good but not OP. --[[Image:Takisig.jpg]] Taki Fujiko  16:06, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Why would a PvE sin use this? PvE sins use Shadow Form, Moebius with DB, or Flashing Blades --Gimmethegepgun 20:56, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * They'll reduce cripple duration and increase recharge. My sin uses Assassin's Promise in pve btw. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 20:57, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, forgot that one. But my point still stands, this is basically worthless in PvE compared to other elites --Gimmethegepgun 21:00, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I used this elite wherever I went, regardless of PvE or PvP even before this buff, and I still plan to, it's my favorite Assassin Elite. I prefer to avoid S.Form and Moebius, and I only use F.Blades for fun. [[Image:H.K.jpg|19px]]Kaze 21:41, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It survived its first update without any nerfs, gogogo. --[[Image:Takisig.jpg]] Taki Fujiko  15:20, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I never use dagger for my sin in PVE... Critical Scythe Sin with Asuran Scan + Aura of Holy Might owns dagger sin. However, this skill is definitely overpowered in PvP.122.57.96.236 15:11, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

So, every Assassin in Alliance Battles using this yet? Darmikau 20:33, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes they are and its only a annoyance when they use it on my heal/smite monk, they'll notice they wont be able to kill me that easy so they teleport out leaving me crippled :| Durga Dido 20:42, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Wow, it seems you've met the most elite, experienced, and best of all the assassins in the game. They'll go away when they realize that they're not gonna kill you or do anything useful. Amazing, simply amazing --Gimmethegepgun 20:44, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Heh, I figured. One of the most underused assassin skills, a single buff, one of the most used. I know I shouldn't complain but I'm one of *those* people, the *before it was cool* people. =P Darmikau 21:06, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I know, the addition of cripple single-handedly made dagger sins viable in PvP again. Of course, dagger sins are not allowed in PvP, so it will get nerfed :( --Macros 20:51, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I dont know about you, but a reduction in cripple duration, at least, wouldn't really be a nerf. it's still spamable enough to make a whole team look like grandma's. The damage isn't really too imba because it's taking into account that it's replacing a lead and offhand attack. and even if they made it something like a dead attack, i don't think that would even nerf it, because then people would use jungle strike for an even stronger spike. But yea, this does need to have a (at least) slight reduction of cripple duration. People have been able to use this in HA instead of wards in alter caps now with how spammable it is. Which is nice cause then you dont need to devote things to earth magic...but yea...with it's recharge time, just reduce cripple duration to like 6-8 seconds or something...that seems perfectly reasonable. still potent, but not leaving a character without condition removal movemently "useless" in places like AB or RA.--Demer Osis 15:39, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Seriously retarded
Four seconds, anet? Four? What are they thinking? Palm Strike sins are everywhere in PvP now because it's too imba to ignore. I've seen them in RA, GvG, AB, and HA (I don't keep up with HB but I'm positive they're 'Striking the shit out of that, too)--all, more or less, to equal effect, but they just trump RA. I've been (ab)using this since the change. I got an RA team with two monks, a necro with no direct damage (not at all sure what he did, maybe degen), and myself on Palm Striking detail. As the only output of damage, I still killed all four people on every team through 10 wins, including a few with monks and one with dual healers. One guy should not have the ability to take down every target in the game. Blinded/hexed/blocking? Just spam Palm Strike til it ends. Someone coming for your monk? Palm Strike as linebacking. Low target? Palm Strike as a finisher. Kiting target? Palm Strike as a snare. Best of all--it recharges in four f%&*cking seconds so you can do all of the above if you want to. P.S. Fun fact:  Blessed Light, Mend Body and Soul, Dismiss Condition, Plague Touch, and Weapon of Remedy are the only self-targeting skills in the game that recharge fast enough to keep the cripple off of you. Bonus: Weapon of Remedy still wouldn't counter Trampling Ox's knockdown, MBaS needs spirits, Blessed is a 10e elite, and who carries Plague Touch? In addition, "Can't Touch This!" is the only method of preventing the cripple, and it's too gimmicky to work into a decent build. (Not to mention it'd be largely useless, anyway, because you can break it down with a couple of spammed attempts, and your high Critical Strikes would get the energy back in no time.) 68.189.248.104 14:33, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * People dumb enough to spam should get diverted. Its cripple duration should span from 1...6...8 seconds or something, yes, but until that happens try kiting, diverting, snaring, or interrupting. Lazuli  01:32, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

just use an outoforder attack and the diversion is useless against assas...
 * Yes, if you are expecting to be diverted and are not focussed on your target. It's not as simple as you'd might think. Diversion has and always will be the answer to skill spammers. King Neoterikos 23:00, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
 * A 3 second Activation HEX is the "Answer"??... Haha, in that case Anet needs to make an Elite "Diversion" of it then that activates like a Shout (maybe they could just replace the functionality of Simple Thievery or Panic since no one likes either of those Mez "elites") --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](26,Dec.'08)
 * Fast Casting, plz. King Neoterikos 23:14, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Domination as a secondary plz --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]
 * Wtf do you mean secondary? I'm talking about mesmers using Diversion on an assassin, and how it is not that easy to suddenly stop your chain to use an out-of-order attack to remove it if you are focussed on another target, which is what usually happens. [edit] Oops, thought you knew I meant using it on a mesmer primary. King Neoterikos 23:53, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "which is what usually happens"...mmmkay, I'll take your word for it. My personal point was that there's no way you're getting me in an arena against all these FotM(or Year) Assassins with nothing but enchants and weak stances to protect myself if I have the option of taking Elite Forms or countering-skills and attacks from a better Primary --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]
 * What would Burning Shield and Spear Swipe do against Palm Strike? [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 21:50, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Nothing...b/c it wasn't the point. --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]
 * Of course my point was the same as Lazuli's, I was only elaborating on the diversion part. King Neoterikos 22:19, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Indeed it is hard to counter this ps assa chain. As to the 1st post, yes they are using it in HB, moreover, it is nearly the only build in there. And im getting sick of it. You will be knocked down no matter what, unless you can remove cripple before the assa hits trampling. This means you almost have to start casting before PS. It is nearly impossible as a monk to prevent or survive these spikes, as the assa can fire them every 8! seconds, and if he has horns with him also you are kd-locked until youre dead, unless you started at max hp. Still, perhaps something like Spirit Shackles and empathy might be used to protect against this FotM build. Ill try a mesmer hero in HB and see if it helps against this imba crap.Breintje(P/T) 09:51, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * LoL... didn't BunnyWay Wars/Rangers get nerfed like REALLY hard when they were able to perma KD everyone long ago? ...I seem to recall Stonefist Insigs and (my personal fav in PVE)Energizing winds all being prevented from overlapping over the years because of it. *grumble grumble*...f**king PvP!!! --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](04,Jan.'09)
 * dshot/dchop > Palmstrike. Despite being imba this skill is the easiest thing in the game to interrupt because you can expect every sin to run around with this thing in RA/AB. Although I cant really say much since I usually pvp main ranger so i can mend touch and block the chains, powerful disabling skills are extremely powerful weapons to use against PS sins, or any class for that matter. I expect that a bigass nerf is not long coming along with VoR, MoI, and some of the other skills that were half-assedly buffed to ridiculous proportions. Drakemaelstrom 01:57, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Though I agree this skill is overused and the assassins are everywhere in HA there are a lot of counters for this build. Most of the time I'm running either a PD or a PB mesmer in HA. One simple diversion is enough to render the sin useless for a minute because they have no other skills they can start their chain with. Even if you're not good at timing your diversion you'll still have a good chance that you divert an attack skill like Trampling Ox which will also greatly hinder the sin. If you have a ranger he/she should be able to land a dshot to the chain (though this is a bit hard and requires some timing). Also with decent monks/communication your prot monk should be able to put a Guardian or Stability on the target and don't forget Weapon of Warding which is also quite popular. Though of course monking will be a bit harder with all the eles throwing AoE on you and your team there are enough counters for these sins which will render them near to uselessness. The thing where those sins are really overpowered are capture points/relic runs where you have wards AND spammable cripple.

No Lead Attack Note
I added the note because I have seen a disturbing number of people in game and on the various wikis that seem to think this skill requires a lead attack first. I can see how the wording in the skill description could be confusing to those quite inexperienced with Assassins. Lazuli 01:23, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Note about not requiring lead attack
Your &#91;Dr ishmael's&#93; reasoning why it is obvious (because it's a skill) doesn't quite ring true. There are spells and a signet that require parts of the chain, to say nothing of another skill. The real reason it should be obvious it doesn't need a lead attack is because nowhere in its description does it say it requires one. And the other notes are just as obvious. I think it's a valid note, perhaps just because I've run into a disheartening number of people that don't understand how it works. I'm in favor of restoring the note, but I have no intention of going over your head to do so. Care to discuss? Lazuli 15:16, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Meh. One of my main rules is "don't pander to stupid people," so I tend to remove a lot of notes like that.  If other people agree on keeping it, I won't mind.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:09, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * All skills that require lead attacks state so in the description last time I checked. Redundant. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  17:46, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I guess the problem is that Guild Wars sends conflicting messages. From the beginning of Factions, Assassins are instructed to think that the chain is always Lead, Offhand, Dual.  And the other offhand type skills that don't need a lead clearly state different requirements.  And in the case of Black Spider Strike, there's a note stating that it needs no lead.  Huh... Personally, I'd rather cut some of the "stupid people" a break once in a while.  Thanks for explaining your reasoning, though. Lazuli  18:13, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I turned it into a more interesting note, since it's the only "counts as a " skill that has no requirement at all. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 18:53, 20 December 2008 (UTC)


 * J Striker's rewording of the note seems appropriate. I corrected his rewording a tiny bit, thereby rewording the rewording.  Perhaps now we can put this all behind us. Lazuli  03:11, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Completely needs nerf.... but yet Balanced...
I really think that this skill is absurdly overpowered and needs a nerf immediately.... HOWEVER!!!

VoR mesmers have diminished in quantity.

This could be one of two things:

1.) All of the people on the VoR wagon are now on the PS wagon...

2.) PS balances out the imbalance of an overpowered VoR.

They say two wrongs dont make a right.... but what if everyone is wrong? Anet is slowly but surely buffing all of the classes to be incredibly annoying (having one build that every single person runs) If every class has the standard annoying build then its not really annoying anymore is it?

Either way.... Nerf the hell out of PALMSTRIKE (and take VoR with it) pls kthx.98.193.121.227 01:52, 4 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I just finished r1 of my glad title, as a monk, in RA. RA is hell. between the n00b palmstrikers (Yes, every effing sin uses palm strike now. EVERY one.) and the backfire/vor/diversion/shame mesmers (can a brother get a holy veil ova here?) I had quite a frustrating time. Please anet, please pleast nerf palm strike. It is sooooooooooooo imba. increase energy to 10 and recharge to AT LEAST 8. (GW-Kiron 08:13, 5 January 2009 (UTC))
 * That would make it worse than pre-buff. Just drop cripple. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 14:05, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Increase recharge to 6, lower cripple duration to 6, give or take a sec. - insidious  420  14:54, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree fully with the nerf both proposition. But I dont think one can say that sins who use palm strike are noob, because I can't really bring myself to blame a guy whose simply using what works. Yes, its clearly imbalanced, but there far from CHEATING, so theyre just using what they know to be supurbly efective. I can't blame them, I blame the skill. Im a balanced world, palm strike would get used as much as any pother elite. But its not, therefore the skill is imbalanced. I say up the recharge to 8. Leave the energy at 5 tho. Shadowshear 15:03, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree on the nerf bit, either longer recharge or higher energy or drop cripple, or perhaps add some malus to it, lengthen casting time, w/e. Personally i suggest to make it an Off Hand attack, that requres no lead, since that way Blind would help against it. Someone a NERF tag? I disagree with Kiron, as a RA monk i have actually seen some others, being the Backbreaker sin. True, 90% runs PS, but definately not all. EDIT: My suggestion for the skill can be found here due to some formatting problems with the skillbox in this page. What do you think of it? Breintje(P/T) 17:59, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * What's up with all this Nerf talk? ...Why not just BUFF the weaker skills that are supposed to counter stuff like this, and then add a few more counters to it in other powers? Touch skills and certain hexes have always been kinda Imba in the PvP metagame ever since 2004 and more counters to them are long over-due --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](5,Jan.'09)


 * It needs a nerf because it's imba. It's huge damage and cripple. On a 4sec recharge. Even if you make CTT recharge the touch skills, it's easy to bust through it / swap to a DIFFERENT TARGET (hellooo, 8 man teams!). Besides, just 2 of these can basically kill a team, because it pumps out amazing DPS and KDs. A normal 2 monk backline can't cope with that. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  21:18, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Even if CTT was awesome, that's still not as good of an idea as nerfing this. Just because a hard counter exists does not mean this is balanced in any way; people can not possibly bring hard counters to every build, or anywhere close. Power creep is bad, too. --  Shadowcrest  21:21, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay I see your point and you right... powercreep is Bad. I was just makin the point that a lot of touch skils have always been out there on the periphery for over 4 years now and it's time that Anet owned up to it with some better counters besides just "CTT" and Diversion.  ...why not put some counters in Balt's Pendulum, Tainted, and "Incoming"?(<--just random examples).--ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](5,Jan.'09)
 * Imho it is bad to balance all 500-something skills up because there are a few imba's. That would then require lots of other changes, since lots of items/stats need to be balanced to the skills too. Also, other skills didnt change, just this one got OP. Easyest way would be "Nerfing". Personally I dont favor big nerfs, but in this case definately one would be in place. Just as backbreaker. It shouldnt be so |severe as to remove it altogether from meta, just make sure all skills are used at about the same frequency. I know eventually a build will emerge that can counter imba teams, but that build probably sucks against most other teams. And it just gets boring if there is no diversity, and winning is determined if you are lucky to get up against the team your gimmick build can beat, while the real skilled balanced playing guilds stand no chance. Sure this is very very hard, but so far A-net has been doin quite a good job, imho it is waaayyy better then some other mammoth MMORPG which recently released a new expansion.Breintje(P/T) 22:55, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

I would be pretty irritated with any nerf that makes Palm Strike less effective than it was before December, since I was using it with great effect before then (glad points etc) and I don't really need the cripple. 10e would suck. 01:53, 6 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Agreed. When it's nerfed, don't make it worse than it was, because the point was to make it at least viable for common play. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  17:38, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Nerf
Seems fairly balanced now. 69.232.230.85 03:08, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Still quite effective. I'm glad they reduced the cripple duration by a lot. it was way too powerful of a snare before. people could palm strike a whole team and watch everyone stumble around for a while. now, it cant be used as a snare in HA instead of Ward Against Foes...etc. But yea, much more balanced.--66.192.104.13 04:28, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Nah it needs a little bit more ,up the damage and cripple by 2 ranks, so 17...61...76 damage 2...5...6 cripple and change recharge to 8.That way if you use this on someone with condition removal and they remove the cripple, you would have to wait a bit before you can start your chain again.4 seconds is just way too spammable. Durga Dido 04:41, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Most non-imba Assassin builds have to wait "a bit" before they can start a combo again. This is why unblockable chains are so popular. The recharge needs to be higher, but really, even if this dealt crap damage like 40 at rank 15, people would still use it just because it is a great and basically uncounterable KD lock. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:58, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

LoL, that was fast... --ilr(08,Jan.'09)


 * Yeah, exactly. The problem wasnt the damage or the snare, its that every four seconds an assassin can use a dual attack without fail. its immmmmba. (GW-Kiron 09:05, 9 January 2009 (UTC))


 * Completely agree with you Entropy,I don't think anyone takes it for the damage, which yes before was nice and now is just ok, its the fact thats is spammable and can't miss and sets you up straight for a dual attack is what makes it a great ( and unbalanced ) skill to use.izzy nerf the recharge..( just in case long text confused you Durga Dido 10:09, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Nerfing the recharge was what everyone expected him to do. We should have known better. --Macros 12:43, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think Izzy programs the actual skill changes, from the looks of it. He seems more like PR or a liaison making recommendations to the folks who actually do it. 192.197.54.29 15:47, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * If recharge is imba, then you need to nerf Vampiric Touch/Bite, 7 touch rangers can spike down a target quite quick with no way of protting even. And no one who thought through it complained about the damage, just the cripple duration.--66.192.104.13 18:04, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * 7 Touch rangers would blow up, though. A PS sin doesn't necessarily, and also KDs a shat load. There's a huge difference there. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  18:12, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * @66.192.anon. So you compare 7 touch rangers against 1 sin using PS chain? BTW you can just run away from a touch ranger, or even 7,when people discus tactics to use against touch rangers for people that cant kill the ranger (for example monk) 2 things that almost always come up, cripple them and/or just run away from them( as in keep your distance,not pull up your tail and run to your base).You can't really run from a SP sin, you can't run away from a sin because well.... your crippled, and if you were to cripple him, then chances are most likely he crippled you too,so that doesn't really help.Ow another thing did you forget that the SP chain will keep you knocked down almost the whole time? Durga Dido 19:26, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Ahh Hahh!... now we're getting somewhere! The problem isn't that PS alone is Imba, it's that Sins themselves are too Survivable (like Armor-Stacking Warriors and PGoons used to be) and they can spam KD's on top of that.  I also gotta point out that the subject of Touch skills not having enough Counters yet was raised here again.  ...I'm not ready to say "I told ya so" yet, but I'm getting close, LoL. --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](09,Jan.'09)


 * What are you talking about? A PS Sin won't blow up because you still have a back/midline instead of ONE supportive character. I was comparing it to 7 touchers, remember? And it really is just PS being imba, because KDs are so spammable because PS immediatly leads to the strong Dual attacks, which include TOx and HOTOx, which KD. A lot.
 * A PS sin is still only as survivable as a generic Ele in just about any form of PvP, since they generally don't take defesive skills (TA being the sole exception). --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  21:56, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Formerly, PS could only be used about once per chain, and didnt set up TO. now you can literally use a two dual chain, then use PS again, and use a third dual attack. Its ridiculous. the added cripple was enough to make PS good. Either the cripple needs to go, or the recharge does.(68.63.217.123 23:53, 9 January 2009 (UTC))


 * 7 Rangers = 1 Sin? K it's your story, tell it anyway ya want ;) --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]