User talk:Quizzical/Necrofail

Anti-sabway, are we? I should mention I enjoyed this article as much as the last one, and I hope you continue writing them. 09:39, 2 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Good Stuff. Longer comment lost to maintenance, nothing important. Ezekiel  [Talk]  15:38, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Nice article. All Necro armies doubling as curse or blood spikers and healers used to work quite well in PvP actually. But the battery theory of having a spirit spammer has changed this. Currently energy for necros is exactly as described. For minion masters, the agro control is indeed a problem, but they can still be good in tight agro areas with proper pulling and flagging the MM hero back a bit extra (I like MM heroes more than people because there's no good player interface for managing death nova on players). --Mooseyfate 16:49, 14 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Someone really doesn't like Necromancers... O_o I agree that they shouldn't pretend to be other classes for reasons of rune trade-off, but I still think that it's nearly impossible to find an area where a "well designed" primary necromancer will not offer great help, you just gotta think outside of the Subway box.  In corpse-scarce areas a MM necro can easily turn into a Death necro with loads of great skills to choose from plus one summon to still offer some meat-shields.  And about the only place where I couldn't use a curses build effectively was the Great Destroyer or Vizunah Square where things die too fast anyway...  Necros are also great at taking down defenses if they are prepared to do so, as well as offering some great frontline support with wells.  I can go on and on.  I think in general Necros are one of the best support classes a group can have, because they can fill so many different functions, where other classes are limited to only a few roles.  <<<  This all excludes Ursan groups, which I hate with a passion... >_<  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 19:01, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


 * One necromancer in a group is usually useful. Apart from trivial exceptions like Augury Rock and Tihark Orchard, the only other mission I can think of where it's best to avoid necros is Nahpui Quarter.  Even two is sometimes justified in a group of eight.  What I don't like seeing is people wanting to bring a group that consists of half necros in places where that many just don't fit, or players wanting to bring heroes with necromancer primaries really pretending to be some other class.
 * If you play as class A and use tactics intended for class B, it won't be as effective as if you really were class B. This says nothing about the relative strengths and weaknesses of classes A and B.  For whatever reason, when people do this, class A is usually necromancer.  Quizzical 20:36, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


 * True, but your "rant" (:P) sounded more like you hated necromancers' guts to the bone. ^_^ You discuss heavily the negatives and barely mention their strengths, which implies that you think they're useless entirely. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 22:32, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

A properly made bar & henchman selection accounts for all of the things you've mentioned here. A bad pull? Pop up the prots. Not getting kills? Stop failing, kills are a joke in PvE. Necromancers are the single best profession in PvE in the entirety of Guild Wars. Mgrinshpon 10:46, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * So if three groups come because minions ran off and grabbed extra mobs, and you're in hard mode, outnumbered 2:1 by level 26 mobs that spread out enough to not be able to hit very many at once with AoE, all you have to do is "pop up the prots" and the mobs won't bother attacking you? What exactly are these "prots"?  Map travel?
 * Some bosses can take quite a while to wear down, and some places have strong healers that can be quite a nuisance to kill. In the meantime, nothing is dying unless it's your party members--meaning, no soul reaping energy for the necros.  I guess if you're loading up on cheats like ursan to do much heavier than normal damage, sticking to easy mode, or just farming certain areas to avoid anything hard, you might not have this problem.  But then you're not actually playing the real game.  Quizzical 11:11, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Prots = Protection Prayers, yakno? That is godly in HM. If Monks are a nuisance to kill, slap Backfire on it for lulz, imo. They'll cast right through. And if they have Hex Removal, either get the Hex Removal out with an AoE hex (Suffering, Shadow of Fear) and then slap on Backfire. If that's not enough, cover it with a few hexes that might bother it in the process. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  11:28, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * What fascinates me about sabway is that every time I use it, I end up completing my objective- usually a dungeon or HM mission/eotn quest- but my heroes come through with 30-60 DP each. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 11:34, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Except that all your heroes are necromancers, and thus don't have backfire. Or if you're not overloading on necromancers so that you can use other things, that's what I was advocating all along.  Quizzical 11:36, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Lolsecondaryprofession? --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  11:37, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Group with many random people and you'll find that quite a few think sabway is the solution to everything, and object to changing so much as a single skill from what they found on some wiki. Quizzical 11:48, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Group with random people and that's 4/8 slots used. You have yours and 3 other slots. Sabway covers at least half the damage, half the healing, and fully all of the body blocking a team will need. Also, Felix, if you get 30-60 DP when using Sabway, I question your bars and aggro management abilities because I get 0-15 every time I'm going through an area with it. Mgrinshpon 15:37, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Mgrinshpon, what areas have you done with henchmen/heroes with sabway and without relying on cheats like GWEN pve-only skills or consumables? Have you done Hell's Precipice hard mode with it?  How about Moddok Crevice hard mode?  Nahpui Quarter hard mode (which is actually pretty easy, but sabway matches up terribly)?  Dzagonur Bastion hard mode?  And if you brought more than one healer among the henchmen, then your sabway isn't providing half the healing as you claim.  Quizzical 19:20, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I've done Hell's Precipice HM with Sabway (other heal was a MBaS from a Rit which spammed weapon spells and Bloodsong :P ). It was easy tbh. Dzagonur; Dunno, might have done it, but not sure. Srsly, Hells is cake. WaH ftw --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  19:36, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * If you're using sabway with henchmen/heroes, you won't have ward against harm unless you're an elementalist yourself, which is why I mentioned that one. And if you've got another player with his own heroes in the party, that you win says nothing about your own builds, as it's quite possible that the other player and his heroes are doing most of the work.  Quizzical 20:02, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * "as it's quite possible that the other player and his heroes are doing most of the work." Wtf? Yeah, try doing Hell's HM with 4 people. That's presumably the most broken logic I've seen... Besides, the other 4 people (yes, I was Ele fyi) consisted of a Warrior (no idea), Rit (Bloodsong, Wep Spells, MBaS), Ele (Shat Stone), Mesmer (prolly interrupts or something random), iirc. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  20:06, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * You can bring some pretty useless builds to most missions and still win if paired with another player and heroes who bring all the key skills that matter. Merely beating a mission doesn't prove that the builds you brought were any good.  That's why I specified with henchmen/heroes, as henchmen will rarely bring critical skills to be able to do most of the key things needed in a mission.  Quizzical 20:15, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I've completed half of the missions and vanquished 1/4 of the zones using nothing but Sabway, and completed almost half of the UW (HM) using Sabway. Hereos and henchmen. I'm also too poor to use consumables, so that's out, and I run a standard /E GvG monk bar. I'd do more, but you know, GWs sucks and I don't play it anymore because it's too easy and players are too stupid.  —ǥrɩɳsɧƴ ɖɩđđɭɘş  [[Image:Grinshpon blinky cake.gif|19px]] 00:48, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

:/
I really dislike the logic used here. If the going is good, you can use a monk or a necro or a healmesmer or something and the party will still win. If the going is bad, soul reaping doesn't help. Oh, really? So Divine Favor helps that much more, a whopping 30 hp per heal making the difference between wiping and not? Or is it the spawning power, making your WoWarding last a full second longer (or making your spirits beefier... although that begs the question, "why the hell are you putting up spirits while your team is wiping")? When you're wiping, primary attribute doesn't matter much - and tbh, I'd rather have soul reaping even then. If a teammate falls, guess what? Energy. If you manage to kill a frenzying warrior as you're pulling out? Energy. Monks don't get that. Rits don't get that. What do they have that somehow magically makes the difference? Glyph Lesser, for a whopping 15 energy saved every 30 seconds? :/ The only solid argument against N/Rt healers is one you didn't mention; the lack of prot. Weapon of Warding is decent, but casts slow and recharges slow. It can't prot stuff like PS or SB, nor can it mitigate small damage like soa. It's basically guardian (a decent spell) combined with mending (a trash spell) - and that's all they have for prot. They've got plenty of healing, and soul reaping to boot, but when it comes to stopping damage instead of reactively healing it, they fail hard. The minion master argument is equally, if not more, flawed. If the mobs are strong enough to insta-wipe minions, why are you running them in the first place? It's PvE, you know exactly what you're up against. Don't be dumb and take minions if the MM is going to sit there minionless because the level 30 enemies kill them in one shot. Picking on a build that fails in a given situation is kind of dumb, seeing as you can just avoid that situation and run something else in its place. No build works everywhere. That's a given. Even monk bars vary in elite choice and attribute allotment from area to area. The main reason sabway is so popular (or rather, soul reaping is so abused in PvE) is its ability to be used pretty much anywhere. There are a few problem areas, but those exceptions are few and by no means make the build bad. It blows through easymode almost as fast as a team of paragons, and fares quite well in Hard Mode, as well - in myriad areas, not just a few. It packs several excellent mechanics into a very small build; splinter weapon for huge damage, minions for a unfocused damage and soaking hits, aegis/PwK for party prots and heals, and potent ritualist heals. There's not a whole bunch more you could fit into 3 characters that achieves the same effect (and if there is, by all means, post it on Guru and become famous yourself!). - Auron 11:38, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, I just saw Grinsh's comment above. Mostly agreed, except Paragons happened, so necromancers pull a close second for best profession in the entirety of Guild Wars PvE. - Auron 11:46, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * So you don't think it makes any difference if a monk heals for ~50% more with every cast due to a combination of the divine favor bonus and a higher attribute in healing prayers or protection prayers? As for a ritualist, if you're wiping and running away, you're not setting up spirits right then, but spirits set up earlier may still help.
 * In easy mode, in most places, you can be completely reckless and it still works. In hard mode, yes, there are some places that sabway works quite nicely.  So use it there, but don't try to use it everywhere else, too.  Quizzical 11:59, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Firstly; no, the 30 hp per heal doesn't keep a wiping party alive. It makes a difference, but getting energy from teammates wiping makes a bigger one. Either way, you wipe, so that can't possibly be a knock on soul reaping.
 * Secondly, if divine favor is healing 50% of Word of Healing's (or Dwayna's Kiss, or Patient Spirit's) heal, you're doing it way wrong. Spec more in healing and less in divine.
 * In easymode, sabway works pretty much everywhere (including ring of fire, realm of torment, unwaking waters/raisu, etc). Regardless of what conditions are used or hexes are thrown, sabway will kill it. Most builds can't say the same, thus the reason sabway is more popular than most builds.
 * Sabway isn't perfect. But nothing really is. I don't understand why you have such high expectations of it when it's a better choice than any other single build in most areas. Duh, if you spec specifically for the area, you will clear it faster than sabway; but sabway's argument isn't "I can clear this particular area super fast," it's "I can reliably clear more areas than any other build, and am more foolproof than most others builds, too."
 * And like Grinsh said, Soul Reaping is broken. It always was and remains the same. No matter what secondary shit you throw on the bar, Soul Reaping will keep your energy up. If you aren't getting kills in PvE, your necros aren't at fault; it's the entire rest of the build that's failing. - Auron 12:14, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * "Secondly, if divine favor is healing 50% of Word of Healing's (or Dwayna's Kiss, or Patient Spirit's) heal, you're doing it way wrong. Spec more in healing and less in divine." Very well then, let's check some numbers.  I'll even use the skills you listed, in an attempt at skewing things to be more favorable to you.
 * Word of Healing, without the <50% bonus, at 12 healing, 0 divine favor: 105 HP
 * Word of Healing, without the <50% bonus, at 14 healing, 13 divine favor: 164 HP
 * Improvement from monk primary: >56%
 * Word of Healing, with the <50% bonus, at 12 healing, 0 divine favor: 188 HP
 * Word of Healing, with the <50% bonus, at 14 healing, 13 divine favor: 258 HP
 * Improvement from monk primary: >37%
 * Dwayna's Kiss, with no enchantments/hexes, at 12 healing, 0 divine favor: 51 HP
 * Dwayna's Kiss, with no enchantments/hexes, at 14 healing, 13 divine favor: 99 HP
 * Improvement from monk primary: >94%
 * Dwayna's Kiss, with two enchantments/hexes, at 12 healing, 0 divine favor: 111 HP
 * Dwayna's Kiss, with two enchantments/hexes, at 14 healing, 13 divine favor: 165 HP
 * Improvement from monk primary: ~49%
 * Patient Spirit, at 12 healing, 0 divine favor: 102 HP
 * Patient Spirit, at 14 healing, 13 divine favor: 156 HP
 * Improvement from monk primary: ~53%
 * A 50% increase in healing from the same casts still looks like a reasonable approximation to me.
 * In easy mode, you can just take seven henchmen (or three or five in some places) and beat most things. Yeah, sabway will work in most places in easy mode, but so will quite a lot of other random builds.  That doesn't say much about sabway.  Quizzical 20:31, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Auron said divine favor, not divine favor+runes, which you've used in your comparison. Now compare your GoLE or w/e with soul reaping, and how many heals those necros can throw out. Lord of all tyria 20:35, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Sabway uses Rit heals, mostly, anyhow. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  20:43, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * One of my main points in advocating using your "real" profession as your primary is that you get runes from your primary profession. Sure, if you consider only the pros of an idea and not the cons, you'll think it's a good idea, but says more about improper comparisons than which choice is more sensible.  Quizzical 20:50, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

The biggest problem with your numbers is that you don't take into account for the fact that everyone runs hybrid monks. Your attribute spread should be 12+1+1 healing, 10+1 prot, 8+1 divine. Prot is infinitely more efficient than heals.  —ǥrɩɳsɧƴ ɖɩđđɭɘş   00:42, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Also, more and more people pump prot to 11+1 and drop divine to 6+1 to get a second more out of aegis.  —ǥrɩɳsɧƴ ɖɩđđɭɘş  [[Image:Grinshpon blinky cake.gif|19px]] 00:43, 16 June 2008 (UTC)