User talk:Dr ishmael/Archive 2

Bit Harsh!
Dont you think? Edit and move sysop? O__o 93.96.58.79 16:13, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I just corrected it. -_- &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:16, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * RC sez I edited before you reprotected.. But RC can be wrong.. 93.96.58.79 16:17, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I've noticed that - the other day I saw people preemptively reverting vandalism. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:19, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Somewhat funny, ya. By the way, youre name is Dr ishmael, and your sig says Ishmaerl., so technically its brekaing gw:sign. I think.. ;P 93.96.58.79 16:21, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think so: "A substituted signature should resemble to some degree the username it represents. Signatures that obscure an account name to the casual reader may be seen as disruptive." I think a single capitalization difference would still "resemble to some degree".
 * In other news, the vandal is now spamming that YouTube link on all Nightfall missions. How do we deal with this?  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:28, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh heck. We warned him to not put it up, so it could be considered vandalism. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 16:30, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Banning is fine with me, but he's using a proxy - I've seen three IPs so far. We could keep banning his new IPs, but I didn't know if there was a better way to deal with that.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:32, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


 * If he uses a small range of IPs, a range-ban would work? No idea how it works tho >< --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 16:34, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Range-ban would be 123.45.*.* or something like that, I think - it would work against someone who simple keeps reconnecting to their ISP to change their IP. Using a proxy, you can change the entire IP, though, so range-ban wouldn't stop them.  In any case, he seems to have stopped for now.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I highly dislike proxies, to say the least... we'll see if he strikes again, I suppose. And now for Nova to stop logging on and off on MSN. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 16:44, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Consumables and their effects
should have seperate articles IMO. One is about the actual item, and the other about the effect that it gives you. thoughts?-- (Talk) (Contr.) 19:56, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * GuildWiki_talk:Community_Portal, GuildWiki_talk:Community_Portal, Talk:Birthday Cupcake (effect). Multiple users have said that they prefer having the effect on the same page as the item, and no one has given any real opposition to this until now.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 20:02, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok nevermind then. Sorry, I haven't been on here a lot recently, so I wasn't aware that this has already been brought up. I'll revert the one that I changed.--[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 20:10, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That's fine, I understand. Actually, you gave me a chance to reconsider this.  I agree that the logical arrangement is separate articles, but practically it makes sense to combine them.  So, to satisfy both sides, I'll leave the effect articles separate, but include them into the item articles.  This also helps where multiple items give the same effect, like the standard/Everlasting tonics or Sugar Rush.  I can't see anyone objecting to this arrangement, except to say that the item page looks cluttered now, but I'll let someone else take care of the design aspect.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 20:29, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * On a related note, other than Consumables there are still many other minor effects and similar things which do not yet have a page...but they are hard to find because many don't have a redlink either. You know, obscure stuff like Rabbit valley. I always wonder if it is better to make redirect pages for minor things like "A whisper on the wind" (Vael in Sacnoth Valley) or just delete them because they are no consequence and leave a note on the page itself explaining. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 04:59, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I am far from knowledgeable about obscure stuff in the game; there's stuff already on GWiki that I'm just stumbling upon now. About the minor effects, though... A couple weeks ago I used this guide in order to build a spreadsheet of all 2851 skills/effects that are currently "active" in the game (there are ~150 others with descriptions in gw.dat, but they apparently don't have skill IDs assigned).  This is how I was able to get most of the icons I've been uploading recently and to confirm the descriptions I've been changing.  Many of these are invisible to the player or aren't even used, in some cases.  Still, I was wondering whether it would still be useful to post them here somewhere - maybe in my userspace to start - just to make the info available.  GWW, because of their Gamelink pages, already has some of them - exhibits A, B, C.  Would this be useful, do you think?  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 05:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Huh...I remember when those things were first found, no one thought they ought to be mentioned but I guess times have changed. My opinion is that anything which a player may conceivably see without the aid of a "cheating device" or such, ought to be documented. Exhibit A is an example of a passive effect which everyone knows. Exhibit B is something which may be useful in explaining why such-and-such effect happens. Exhibit C is not relevant to anything. In the case of "invisible skills" which are actually used but players won't ever see it, I think those could be mentioned in describing some effect, but they may not deserve a full wiki page. Posting it all to userspace would be entertainment, sure...hm. Yeah, I guess if a player might see it, then it ought to be added in somewhere as a real article. Playing with gw.dat sounds fun, maybe I will look into it some day. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

protting
Protection is the last resort when dealing with a vandal. It should really only be used on pages which have a great impact (Main page), impact performance issues (Skillbox), could confuse users (Delete/Ban), or on a page which has a long history of repeated serious vandalism (Prince Rurik). The thing to consider before protection is this: "If I am going to remove the protection in a few days, then it doesn't need to be protected in the first place." Now obviously if it was something like the page was being moved ten times or he spammed a hundred links, that would be much more serious and for some reason prot was necessary because banning proved ineffective (proxies etc) then sure, prot. Otherwise, save the big guns for last.

Very few sysops ever use the prot feature in their careers, so even an experienced active user could hardly expect to know such things - this isn't a reprimand in any way, just a friendly admin reminder. As long as it stops the vandals, that the No. 1 priority of course. At the same time though, protting every page that gets hit with a mass vandalizer is counter-productive. (T/C) 04:52, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Heh, well, it was the first time I'd ever been involved in something like that, and when I saw the vandal start switching IPs, I just figured that protecting the page was more efficient than continually banning his new IPs. But then he started hitting a few other pages, and... meh, at least I've learned something from the experience.  I was not aware that protection was considered such a "big gun" - since it's relatively simple for admins to add/remove it, I thought it would be used more often to stop things like 1RV issues.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 05:27, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, you can check the log of past protections and consider how much smaller it is compared to the ban and deletion logs. That gives some idea :D No worries though, there's a first time for everything - every admin has to deal with vandals eventually. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

you haven't commented
on User:Entropy/bureaucrat. I was expecting a little bit more attention from the general public, so now I'd like at least all the sysops to chime in. After all, those are the people it most directly affects. If you're indifferent then I apologize for spam, and if you're busy I'm sorry for giving more work...nevertheless I desire your comments. (T/C) 05:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll comment on this in the morning, it needs a better response than my tired mind can give right now. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 05:44, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Wow?
What a teamwork ;) But, RC says we both deleted the same page? Lolwut? --- -- (s)talkpage 17:32, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Oic now I recheck RC. pesearing and presearing. /Blind --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 17:33, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * And you EC'ed me on putting disambigs on BOTH of the existing pages. This is starting to get annoying. XD  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 17:35, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, nvm, I got one of them. :P &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 17:36, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Ye, that was the teamwork I was talking about tbh :P But, I had to search for Restless Spirit (thrice...) and for the template... Did you just chime in later, or are you suddenly slow? O_o --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 17:39, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, I only saw the "pesearing" one and immediately went to delete it and add the disambigs, I didn't know there was a second page with a discussion until you'd already nuked it. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 17:43, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Hai
Heard you were going somthing with Cheat Engine- How do I change the values? I want to get hundred blades, in look if not in actual usage. Also, can you get armors using CE? Err.. No reason whatsoever, I dont want it to look like I have FoW for myself in pre.. >_>, but Smurf's guide doesnt work for me, and since you're our Second-In-Command Coder, I figured I'd ask you. ^^ &mdash; Warw/Wick 15:25, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I just followed the instructions here, it's pretty well-explained. It might be possible to do a similar thing with inventory items, if they have a similar ID code (I'd actually thought of that possibility just last night), but I have no clue if it would actually "fall through" to your character model.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:31, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I know about that one, I meant I tried using the memory link but the instructions didnt work.. ;| &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 15:40, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * They worked fine for me. What part isn't working for you?  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:45, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Getting the skills onto your skill bar? :p &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 15:45, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Aha. That's not explained in that guide, no.  Hacking them into the S&A panel works because you can manually close/open the window to refresh it, but there's no way to directly refresh the actual skillbar.  What you have to do is have a "real" skill on the skillbar, hack the other 7 slots, refresh S&A, then replace the real skill with another real one.  This will force a refresh of the skillbar.  You can't have a full 8 hacked skills, unfortunately. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:52, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Can you actually have them in an exporable or anything, or make the game default into you being able to use it, or does it actually do nothing except change the looks? &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 16:07, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks only. There is a check in place that removes any "disallowed" skills whenever you zone - the same check that removes extra elites after you use an SoC.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:09, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Can you change them in area? &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 16:11, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You can in the S&A panel, but not on the skillbar. All you can do in an explorable is swap the positions of skills, and that apparently doesn't force a full refresh of the skillbar, so hacked skills don't fall through.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:18, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

gww:Category:Historical_content
That should have quite some of the info you're now putting up, right? Now if that only would be here rather than on the Official Wiki ^^' --- -- (s)talkpage 19:49, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That is my intent - first, to catch us up on historical skills/effects, and second, to add stuff that even they don't have yet. I've got most of the info compiled in a spreadsheet, I just have to get it on the wiki.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 19:56, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I see. Well, have fun, I say ^^' --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 20:01, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Just a small note that typically, GuildWiki does not maintain historical notes unless they are hugely important. For example on Death Pact Signet we continue to remove the note about how it was once the biggest bug in the game ever. However, since the intent of that policy was not to add unprovable stuff/unnecessary stuff/etc, and I think that most pages are in more or less complete form, we may as well add some spice now. Don't forget to observe copyrights too, though I doubt I'd need to warn you :P 00:03, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That's why I'm adding them in userspace first, so that people can look through them and decide which are significant enough (in a historical context or otherwise) to be moved to mainspace. (I'll post about it on the CommPort after I get a good number of them up.)  I think I'm doing fine on copyrights - I gathered all the data on my own, I'm tagging the icons as screenshots, and I'm not copying any of the notes from GWW.  Let me know if there are any other concerns there.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 00:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah that sounds fine. Mostly I was worried about using the GWW database to find info. But as long as you are gathering all the data by yourself, not copying the notes, etc. there should be no problem. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 00:46, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

: )
I find it amusing that even though I promoted you as "House-cleaning admin" and you self-describe that as your main duty, you have displayed a remarkable amount of "mediating ability" and overall wisdom lately when it comes to people issues. I was mistaken in assuming you were just a tech guy...you continue to amaze me daily. (T/C) 01:12, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Wow, thanks. Really, though, I'm still amazing myself with all I've been doing.  I seriously never thought I'd get as involved with the community as I have, but I've discovered that even performing "house-cleaning" tasks around here either requires or leads to interaction with a lot of people.  I think this is another instance, like the AnimeLyrics forum I told you about, where I feel like I'm fitting in really well with most of the community, and when that happens I naturally become more open and feel more confident about giving my opinions on things.  Now I'm at the point where I can't help myself - I'm actually watching RC (when I can) and commenting on things all over the wiki.  I do still dislike putting myself in the middle of disputes, but if I see a situation that's being biased to one side (like today) or otherwise handled unfairly, I feel like I have to give a "voice of reason" to try and resolve it fairly.  Of course I'm always afraid that doing so will make one of the sides dislike me, but I can live with that better than letting an unfair decision be made.
 * Don't worry, I'm still primarily a "tech guy", and I haven't forgotten about the housekeeping tasks. I'll get back to them... someday. >.>  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 04:15, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Stalking
I hope you don't mind me stalking you and every upload for the excluded skills :)-- 02:24, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * * gasp* Oh noez, I has a stalker! =O &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 03:46, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

oh well
At least you got one :P --- -- (s)talkpage 14:43, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I stopped trying after I started getting the "Internal error" messages. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 14:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

:)
'nuff said.-- (Talk) (Contr.) 20:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Heh, I'm pretty sure I'm waaaay too "new" to be considered for that, but thanks anyway. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 00:00, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Entropy disagrees :p --[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 02:22, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I noticed that... it certainly surprised me. ^^; &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 03:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

the concise indentical thing
For the concise-identical thing you did on the PvP (effect) page, could that be done on Template:Skill box for un-altered PvP descriptions? --Shadowcrest 23:39, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Probably all we'd want in Skill box would be something like:  so simply the presence of a PvP description makes it display.  I considered doing that with the concise descriptions on Effect box, instead of using, and now I kinda wish I had.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 23:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Help
My monobook.js doesn't work anymore. I'm asking you because you're almost as tech savvy as Pan ;) (Though you seem full of surprises! :o). Could you help please? Its not my coding, because I havn't made any edits to it since before it stopped working.. :| &mdash; Warw/Wick 23:03, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Uhh... I can't do much based on just "It doesn't work!", so I'll have to ask for more info first. Do you mean that nothing in there works at all, or is it just a couple functions?  Are you still using the Monobook skin?  Have you made any other changes to your account preferences?  Have you made any modifications to your browser (like installing the NoScript extension for Firefox)?  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 01:38, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * /nobrain. Thanks ;p. Works now. Noscript ftl ;p &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 10:01, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Why in the world did you install noscript in the first place o_O??? -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 10:14, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * RT made me do it. Go hit him. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 10:19, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Perl
I haz it, and I noes how to copy your coding. :) &mdash; Warw/Wick 19:28, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Shudder. mendel 10:17, 29 May 2008 (UTC) ;-)

Cleanup after Maybot
I've been working on Cleanup_after_Maybot, and I have a pretty good idea of what needs to be done. Unfortunately, it is impossible to just revert the screwups because in many cases your bot has come and done more changes to the pages, and the things that the MayBot failed to fix (DeletedLink adding) would need to be re-fixed. This means that in a large number of cases (dozens if not hundreds) I need to place the correct DeletedLink templates by hand. It would really help if I could just revert to before your bot and Maybot struck, and then you'd run your bot again to redo what it did before and what MayBot wanted to do but borked on. Then I'd only have to manually edit those pages where other edits have occurred (going to ignore the MayBot's recent user links rewrites). Is that possible? mendel 10:02, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Since they were botted changes, I may be able to write a Perl bot to undo them and fix them properly, unless she actually deleted anything. That would save you a lot of work.  Give me a few example pages and I'll work on it.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:37, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, there is stuff that has been deleted, which makes the edit so cumbersome: you have to copy stuff from the last good page (I use the diff) into where the deleted thingy is, and the different versions of the bot screwed up in different ways. I'm guessing that reverting and then rerunning your bots is less trouble. I can give you a list of pages when I'm done reverting. Look at the MayBot contributions for the namespaces I haven't cleared yet, for the edits on May 8th, for plenty of examples. mendel 17:04, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * It is exactly due to this issue that I'd rather have full human process to fix the issues left behind by Maybot. We have a good idea of how Maybot screwed up, but there might be things we still didn't catch that are edge cases. I believe Warwick already fixed 3 different bugs with Maybot on the 8th, and yet it was still doing things wrong in other ways. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 17:11, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Tell me what I screwed up and I'll fix it myself. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 17:13, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The problem is that even if we magically fixed all of problem 5, we still need to human check every article involved to ensure there isn't an unknown problem 6 )-: -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 17:18, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The only MayBot proper mistake was the forgetting of the { and the } :|. As far as I know. But I know what I entered on the awb when i did that, so i'm 99% thats the only issue. All your base are belong to us. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 17:20, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * May, what do you need to know that is not on Cleanup_after_Maybot ? There's the space between deleted and link, there's failing to delete the closing brackets, there's deleting the first part of links, maybe there's more. And what AWB setting makes it change the HTML charas to UTF-8? mendel 17:26, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * That'd be a "category" of problems, since after I pointed the issue out and you acknowledged it, it was still being done wrong, implying there are multiple problems in that category. Plus Ishmael's bot might not be the only edits added after MayBot's.  So, we need human eyes to catch/fix the issues. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 17:25, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I am confident that I can do the edits in those cases where non-bot edits have been made in the meantime; pages with dead links are often not in general use. But I'd really like to have the doctor rerun his bot so I can revert in the easy cases, which are most numerous. mendel 17:30, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Well you have to realize even if the Doc re-run the bots, we still need to humanly check each article anyways. So the amount of articles we need human power to check remain the same, the only difference is how many needs human reverting vs how many can be fixed by bots.  As long as you guys recognize this, and Ishmael clearly define how his bot is gonna check and fix things so the rest of us can review it before it runs, I'm fine with letting that bot fix the easy cases. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 17:37, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Pan, I am going to check all the articles. But there is world of difference clicking "undo" on 200+ articles or on copying links from the diff into the current page and putting the DeletedLink template in manually. That's where the manpower savings kick in, plus I'm sure to introduce errors myself doing that many conversions manually. Dr Ishmael's bot has already run and placed a lot of DeletedLink templates, without a single error I could spot, that is why I'm asking that he reruns it when I'm done reverting. It's proven, it works. I'm just waiting for him to say that he'll rerun it (afterwards) and I'll start manually reverting; in fact, I'm only waiting because I want to know if there's information I should collect that will make his job easier. mendel 17:59, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry for not commenting on this, but I was busy this morning. I agree with Mendel that the most efficient thing is, for pages that have only been edited by MayBot and Bot ishmael, to revert to the version before MayBot made the error.  I'll have to wait until Special:Wantedpages gets refreshed before running my bot again.  Any pages with additional edits should be dealt with manually.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 18:43, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I foresee that I'll get to work on this in about 10 hours time; I want to work on the skill templates now. I'll give you a heads up when it's done. mendel 22:02, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Was that supposed to look like that? You don't see the intermediate Maybot edit. I've reverted it to the early version. mendel 14:14, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Special:Whatlinkshere/Template:Build_archive mendel 14:25, 30 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, it should be, but I doubt anyone's really going to care. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 17:49, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I did two screenfuls of bot edits, pausing now. Remarks: mendel 14:58, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I soon pegged to your doing manual edits in some cases, I hope I didn't miss any before I noticed that. Whenever I saw, I did a manual revert of the MayBot edit.
 * The bot runs of yours that came after MayBot were those placing DeletedLink, the ones rewriting the build seem to have come before that; so to redo everything, you probably only need to run the DeletedLink bot again.
 * A frequent Maybot edit is the one that meddles with the build archive template (see cleanup project page), and that could have been reverted by bot. But as PanSola says, I need to look at all the edits anyway, and I can undo a surprising number of Maybot edits outright because there was no other bot after them.


 * It's all the same bot - if the link is in the list that Wizardboy777 made (relating the old links here to the current PvX articles), then it gets rewritten to point to the PvX article, otherwise it gets wrapped with DeletedLink. The list only went down to those that had 10 links in Wantedpages at the time, so by the time of MayBot's erroneous run, I had already cleared out most of the links that were in the list. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 17:49, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

The edits in User: namespace are now mostly cleaned up (AWB helps); I managed to redo most of the Bot ishmael edits where I had reverted them, but the unclean reverts possibly affect the following list, i.e. these must be redone by your bot: User:Ttibot/Archive builds/Team - Nightmare Spike User:Korineczek/Shockwaver User:Ekrin/Builds User:Harleynhondo User:Namnatulco/bvp User:Nog64/Build Talk Archive User:Friend of Chaos/HelpfulStuff User:Jagre/Funny User:Namnatulco/bvp User:Sneakysmith12/vetting procedure User:Rapta/Sandbox A solution must be found for the "build archive" template. I am unable to suggest one as I can't figure out what it does; this template has been deleted a whooping 3 times, and of course no history is available. If it had been moved twice, any redirects would have broken, but a human would be able to actually follow what happened. Sigh. The simplest solution is to undelete it and then redirect it to the DeletedLink template; this'll do the correct thing in most instances. Feel free to move this paragraph to an appropriate page. mendel 13:06, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Er
Where could I learn how to code Perl? :p &mdash; Warw/Wick 17:20, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * NOT on this wiki. :-P mendel
 * I learned from two books, Programming Perl and Perl Cookbook, which were sitting on my research group's bookshelf at grad school. My advisor gave me my own copy of one as a graduation gift, and I later purchased the other (can't remember which was which), and I still keep both of them by my desk as references.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 18:48, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikimail for you?
Administrator_information has a wikimail for you, but it seems you have that turned off in your prefernces? mendel 17:22, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Stupid Wikia user merge... had to re-confirm my email address. >.> Preferences have been fixed.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 18:53, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Category redirects - do they work?
Category:Dervish bosses is the correct capitalization for that category (and GWW has that). Would
 * 1) REDIRECT Category:Dervish_Bosses work, or are there problems? I thought I'd ask before I tried that. mendel 10:17, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It would work in that anyone who clicked on a link to "Category:Dervish Bosses" would go to "Category:Dervish bosses" instead, but it would not recategorize the articles that belong to the category. We have a proposed bot task for category renaming, but the discussion on which categories needed to be renamed kinda died out.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:34, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I created the redirect. There are no articles in that category (I checked), so that's not a problem. I don't want to rename it. mendel 21:12, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

non-orphaned formatting
"formatting got fubared by a single missing div" - ah, ok, I'd noticed the formatting weirdness, but felt too tired to investigate. Thanks for explaining! mendel 07:41, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

According to the link...
Your userpage is in fact not fully XHTML 1.0 compliant :/. Mine is though :P. Banjthulu is better than you 04:29, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * What the hell?! It didn't say that ten minutes ago... grrrrrr. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 04:30, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Typically, the error's on the compliance userbox - puts a &lt;b> tag around the stuff in the left cell, and the XHTML template uses &lt;div>s, so I have block-level elements inside an inline element.  This will require customization.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 04:34, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Thanks for pointing it out.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 04:37, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * No problem. [[Image:Banjulhu icon.png|50x19px]]  Banjthulu  is better than you 04:38, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Do tell!
''Chicken. Not because I am a chicken, but because I command an army of chickens. Don't ask, it's a long story.'' - Chicken Army? Do tell! &mdash; Warw/Wick 15:13, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh man, first I have to see if I can remember the whole story anymore... >.> &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:14, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmm
I had to download a few files when I booted GW. It might be my flunked hard disk that randomly forgets files, or it is an addition of a certain drop. *hint* --- -- (s)talkpage  18:47, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Well it is Thursday... *goes off to run * &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 19:03, 5 June 2008 (UTC)


 * And now an official New Build message. Well... Get to work :> --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  19:52, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Odd, they must've released the update in two small packets - I ran -image right after that last comment and got some new files, but after extracting everything there were no changes in the text files. Now I run it again and get more files.  Ah well, time to extract again...  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 20:13, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Got it - Golem Form. The only other changes in the text files were the listings of tournament maps, as already noted in the update, and a new string that says, "This is PvP!"  I assume that's the chatbox text for ctrl-clicking on the PvP effect icon, similar to "This is Hard Mode!"  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 21:00, 5 June 2008 (UTC)


 * It still reads "I'm under the effects of PvP!" :< --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  21:01, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm, well, I dunno then. Maybe it's only if you're actually in a PvP arena, rather than the outpost.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 21:03, 5 June 2008 (UTC)


 * You dont get the status effect in PvP areas --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  21:08, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

new profession icon templates proposed
See []. I'm asking PanSola first as it is probably the best way to deal with what I see as ownership. --mendel 22:34, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * If there's anyone who can "own" that template, it'd be User:Fyren. Right now I'm just trying to understand what you are proposing and why you are proposing it. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 04:30, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't quite understand what Mendel's trying to do, either. It looks like his main complaints have to do with passing unnamed parameters, so I'm wondering why he doesn't just name the parameters.  It's a lot easier to deal with inside the template, and it's a lot easier for users to understand how to use the template because it's self-documenting.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 05:33, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I found it because of the Monster skill tables. [This] template is intended to be used by non-template-savvy users, and that is easier (and looks better) when you can leave off the parameter names. On a general note, the icons are some of the shortest and handiest templates of the wiki, and if they are not safe to be used as input to other templates even in the short form that is not a good thing. --mendel 09:31, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

build redlinks rewrite
done for good - anything else can be dealt with manually - I'm not done with User:Talk yet, but I'll keep that in mind. Template writing is nicer than AWB debugging. --mendel 09:37, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

boss-like foes stubs
Why can't Category:Boss-like foe stubs be in both categories (stubs and bosses)? If a user actually uses the category system to find information, if he drills down from Category:Bestiary he's never going to find them. That's why I wrote: I know that category is not precise,but that's where people need to find it in my summary. I am unhappy to get your support for GW:RFAQL.

Maybe the Boss-like foe stubs could be in Category:Boss-like foes, that'd be ok, too. --mendel 09:02, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The precedent is that the stub categories themselves are only subcats of Category:Stubs. The individual articles are usually cross-catted into the "normal" cat that is complementary to the stub cat, so that de-stubbing the article only requires the removal of the stub cat/template.  In this case, the boss-like foe stubs should be in both Category:Boss-like foe stubs and Category:Boss-like foes.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:56, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * More work, then. Hmmm. --mendel 22:38, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Done. --mendel 06:05, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Message
I think that's not exculsively when under the effects of the sohut. I've had that in the Punch the Clown and Throwdown in a Norntown quests too (if I remembered the names correctly... been a while since I'd done those :P ) --- -- (s)talkpage  16:10, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, that's what the anon had originally said, so I was a little confused. Go ahead and fix it.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:17, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Create A Hero contest
You are invited to join. Check it out!reanor 04:35, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Quest category name sorting
Noticed your recent changes to some quest articles, re: article name sorting order within category lists. I've updated the S&F/Quests document to reflect this new option (so can be adopted as the preferred approach from here on). --Wolfie (talk|contribs) 05:18, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. I'll have to stop and go to bed soon, so if I don't finish Nightfall, you can pick that up if you'd like, then Factions and Prophecies still need to be done.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 05:20, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Can do, but then see comments in "Pollymock piece" topic below). --Wolfie [[Image:Wolfie_sig.jpg|19px]] (talk|contribs) 05:42, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You'd missed the "core" quests (Battle Isles, FoW and Uw), so ripped through and did those (was only a handful anyway), and fixed up a couple others. Looks like we're all done, yay! --Wolfie [[Image:Wolfie_sig.jpg|19px]] (talk|contribs) 03:42, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I didn't even think about those. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 03:53, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * hehe, and *I'd* forgotten about the "Special event" quests. Fixing those up now. :) --Wolfie [[Image:Wolfie_sig.jpg|19px]] (talk|contribs) 03:57, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Pollymock piece
Shouldn't you get a bot to do that? Random Time 05:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * (I assume you're referring to the DEFAULTSORT, regardless of the section header... :P ) I'm cleaning up as I go - some categories have the sort parameter, some don't; some articles already have DEFAULTSORT, some don't.  There's too many variables and it's not that much work.  I can make the edits from Bot ishmael if you'd prefer, though.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 05:30, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Might be easier on RC if you make all the repetitive edits on a bot Random Time 05:39, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * RT, the Polymock piece changes are being done by me, not Ish, and am basically finished (as far as I can go for now). As for the introducing of the DEFAULTSORT, there's only a smallish number of quest which would need updating so could be just as quick to hand-craft the edits than to write a bot with enough smarts to handle all the varibles outlined. I've offered to help out with the workload (see "Quest category name sorting" topic above), however, if we wanna bot it, then can't participate, let me know how you guys wanna proceed. --Wolfie [[Image:Wolfie_sig.jpg|19px]] (talk|contribs) 05:42, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I finished putting DEFAULTSORT in the Nightfall quests on Bot ishmael. If RT would rather the Factions/Prophecies quests also be done with a bot account, then he can do them or I can do them in the morning, otherwise they're free for anyone else to complete.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 05:45, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Ugh... It's morning - I should get ready for school Random Time 05:48, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) Ah, I see now - I hadn't noticed Wolfie had done so many edits to fix the links to Polymock piece, I'd only seen a couple before I started on DEFAULTSORT. That task could easily be done with a bot, yes.  We should probably put up a "reusable" bot task for relinking articles that get moved, where anyone could just post "old name" -> "new name" and the bot could be run to update those links.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 05:49, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Was only 12 articles, so figured take more time to hassle for a bot to do it, than to just get on with it, but if we're going to start really sorting out articles to comply with the GW:ULC, then yeah, automation be the way to go. It's of great amusement to me, when I mentioned about botting much of the clean up tasks 2 years ago, there was so much arm-waving and frothing-at-the-mouth, I gave up and just quietly shelved my ideas; but now here we are, the "in croud" finally worked out how to bot and *now* it's all the rage. Funny that. :) --Wolfie [[Image:Wolfie_sig.jpg|19px]] (talk|contribs) 06:03, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * :D - Who started it? Random Time 06:06, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm gonna take and generalize it for performing re-linking of any article that gets moved.  But first I'm going to finish DEFAULTSORTing the F/P quests.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 14:47, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Gah. -_- I forgot to switch accounts... did almost all of the Factions quests before I realized it.  I'm gonna hide from RC for the rest of the day. >.>  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:15, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

IRC Moar?
Hey Dr. Since you're around here, could you also spend a little time in the IRC channel? Mostly in the mornings (er, around now...) since there are no ops.... just sorta, well, moderate it and keep it wiki friendly. Thanks --JonTheMon 14:26, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * IRC is an awful time sink, methinks a better approach would be to make you ircop, Jon. Though I would like to see the Dr on more often, too, I can see why he wouldn't want to be. --mendel 14:32, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Permision
Hi, my name is Joe, and I have been a part of wiki for a while, but I havn't really done much, I have a stolen character template on my wiki page but I really don't like it. I was wondering a few things... It would be highly appreciated!! :) Shogankiller 23:13, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) 1. If I could have permision to use your character page template
 * 2) 2. If you could show my how to make multiple pages of my own (my main wiki page leading to a personal build page, ect)


 * Yeah, you can use the stuff off my pages, I stole most of it from other people myself (see the "Credit" box on my userpage). To make multiple pages under your userspace, just make links like this: start with   (the slash is important, that's what makes a subpage) and then type whatever you want for the name of the page, finishing with , of course.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 23:18, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks!!!! Shogankiller 23:55, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

by the way, I think the in-character part on your character pages are really neat, great idea!!Shogankiller 16:46, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Template:Optional
Could look into undeleting Template:Optional ? I was tempted to recreate it so the "optional" option for Template:Skill list item would work again, possibly icon=Optional.jpg needs to be added. --◄mendel► 23:22, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I think the better option would be to write that into Skill list item, like PanSola wrote it into Template:Skill bar box, rather than resurrect a template that would see little use. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 01:32, 23 June 2008 (UTC)


 * If I write it into Skill list item, that code gets loaded and processed every time Skill list item is used. The alternative is basically, do I place the rarely used code inside a template that sees much use, or do I place it outside? From a coding perspective, it makes no sense to place rarely needed code "in the main loop", so to speak. If you want to increase the use, we can rewrite Skill bar box ;-).
 * We have 2468 articles in namespace "Template:". Granted, an estimated 1768 of those are skills. That still leaves a lot that won't be used much. Anyway, I think it's safe to defer a decision until such a time when the "optional"-feature is actually needed/requested. --◄mendel► 06:17, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * 1768 is an odd number for an "estimate" :P  &not; Wizårdbõÿ777  ( talk ) 07:36, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but we all know that 1768 was the birthyear of the mathematician Fourier responsible for the invention of Fourier transformation. By using that technique, we can filter out the base-frequency of the template alterations and come to this astounding number. Or...Mendel just estimated 700 (and that looks like an estimated number) 'normal' templates and just subtracted it from the 2468. :) -- [[Image:merty_sign.gif]]-- ( talk ) 08:06, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, there are 8 and about a 2/3 page of 200s of skill templates. The rest is just rule of thumb and my decision that the nice round number in this case should be the 700. :-) --◄mendel► 09:25, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The problem I see there is that Template:Optional would have to use Template:Skill box. That means that to avoid a redlink, we'd also have to recreate, which has no value whatsoever.  Honestly, unless you intend for Template:Skillset to replace Template:Skill bar/Template:Scalable skill bar, I can't think of any reason that an "Optional" skill would ever need to be used in Template:Skillset.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 14:57, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Article Optional can just redirect to Skill. Yeah, that's basically what I said - no need to create anything until there's a need - or performance numbers for the skil bar... --◄mendel► 15:34, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * If we need it, yeah, redirecting to Skill would make the most sense. And the skill bar templates probably could use some performance improvements.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:39, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

(Reset indent) See gww:Optional. The scalable skill bar is performing extremely well. The Skill bar has one #ifexists per filled slot, that is 8 in the worst case; so there can be at most 12 of them on any one page if there are no other templates using #ifexist. We can just adapt pvx:Template:Skill_bar if need be, it's a compatible license (and probably based on ours anyway), but we'll have to see how the special cases are handled there if we do that here. For Faintheartedness, I see a redirect page named "Fainthearted- ness" or some such. Hmm. --◄mendel► 07:00, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

The really good-looking skill bars on Pvxwiki are done with site CSS and the custom tag. --◄mendel► 07:27, 24 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Our Skill bar box handles Faint heartedness like that, no redirect. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 13:39, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I know, because it's hardcoded in. It's a cruddy design, and those bytes count every time the template is used. Oh, and sorry for the unintentional revert, I must have had the "currently accepted" revision open when I added the shortcut. --◄mendel► 17:53, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

^jo
There's this page that needs a bit of cleaning. Users != bugs. So, since you've worded the "skill box -> user skill box" so well, could you come up with a c/p message? I tried a few times, but they always came out kinda rude... --- -- (s)talkpage  14:06, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll get to work on it. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 14:51, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, Talk: pages don't need to be in there either, so what we should do instead is add an  check to the Bug template - if it's not mainspace, don't categorize it.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:01, 23 June 2008 (UTC)


 * That would work, too. And it would prevent further problems and stuff... --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  15:03, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * There are a few other auto-categorizing templates that are commonly used on userpages- Spoiler, for one, and a few of the stubs. The same check code ought to work with those as well, right? [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 20:45, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep. I'll add it to Template:Spoiler, let me know which other ones need it (or add it yourself if ya feel like it).  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 20:46, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I will attempt it on Template:Anomaly- I don't know how often it's used in userspace, but it'll be nice to have it in place just in case. Plus, I are needs to learn the mystic shine code. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 20:48, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I already did that one, as you should find out in 3... 2... 1... >.> &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 20:49, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm seething with rage. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 20:50, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Firefox on Userfriendly
Well, the record attempt... of course Illiad had a comment: [here]. Enjoy! --◄mendel► 21:26, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, User Friendly... been a while since I've read that. Think I've got me a time-killer for the next couple months now. =D  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 22:11, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

:o
need more input. and thanks for replying to the others so quickly :) --Shadowcrest  04:41, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I just happened to be watching RC at that time... then I got pulled into doing HM Elona missions with guildmates. >.> I'll try to comment on the others tomorrow, but work has been extremely busy the last few days, so I may not be able to until tomorrow evening.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 05:25, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks :) --Shadowcrest  02:50, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * -_-... I think that was the first time I've forgotten to sign in, like, forever. XD &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 03:17, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Forum:Coding
I hope you didn't miss that - I would appreciate input on numbers 4 and 5, especially. --◄mendel► 23:05, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi
Read.-- (Talk) (Contr.) 01:53, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Monster Skill Box
I assume they're good to go from what mendel has told me. Are we going to be using a bot or something to do them or will it all be done manually? If it's going to be done manually then I think I'll be able to get started on them soonish - b.r // talk  04:13, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Mendel had another idea, see the link in his comment two sections above. We might just give the monsters some (modified) s instead.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 04:15, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I tried reading what he said but my lack of understanding of anything that is not a naked women prevented me from understanding anything he posted. So we'll be dropping the idea of a table and using those skill bars instead? I can see that working - b.r // talk  04:22, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Basically, yeah. Although I can see the pages for monsters with 3-4 skillsets looking a little cluttered, it might be a better idea than the skillset tables.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 04:25, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Is this where I nominate myself to make some monk-ups or isn't it required? - b.r // talk  04:26, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You mean "mock-ups"? Sure, go ahead.  You're good at starting things like that - then people like me and mendel come along and just polish them up. :P  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 04:30, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Is that a polite way of saying 'you go start it then we'll fix all the problems you created'? - b.r // talk  04:32, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Something like that, maybe. >.> I'm in no way saying there's anything lacking in your skills... but Mendel's just a frikkin' wizard at wiki templates.  He scares me sometimes with the stuff he comes up with. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 04:36, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I've already come to terms with my mighty ineptitude at anything even resembling programming, you don't need to beat around the bush on that point. I made updated one at [|here], It's not the best looking thing but it's the first step. It also entered my mind that those skillboxes won't work that well with the more complex ones (such as this and this one). - <font color="darkBlue">b.r // <font color="Black">talk  04:46, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I have heavily mockified User:Blue.rellik/testMonster3 and User talk:Blue.rellik/testMonster3. The skill bar version doesn't require an editor to get to grips with nested table headings, and it is also very simple to use. I think the looks of the single skillset version might be deciding (if that even exists) because then the horizontal skill bar fills the page better. --◄mendel► 08:02, 27 June 2008 (UTC)