User:Mendel/Talk Archive 9

If you want to contact me in a timely manner, don't use the talkpage; send me wikimail, or use the contact info in the source of my user page.

I reserve the right to edit section titles to coincide with the section content. Size: bytes. =Comments=

Clean slate
Tabula Rasa. Miss that game :( --Gimmethegepgun 02:50, September 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * Bakula Scott. Miss that name... not so much.  &mdash; Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 03:30, September 23, 2009 (UTC)

 I realized that I had fallen asleep at the wheel, and it was all just a dream about me, and listening to Edguy, who I thank skuld for introducing me to. Additionally, the fanfic didn't actually exist, I dreamt about reading a bad fanfic, well, at least thats what my brain wants me to, oh and one more thing, DO DA DO DA DO!  Also, Take a look into the book of fantasy and poetry until you find that in your mind a feeling most unnaturally has taken hold, and growing bold , has caused quite a calamity while drumsticks dance around like candycanes  on a bright snowy summer evening in alberta, Mexico.
 * I don't know that name, but thats fine, because I'm just a lot [[File:coffee-32x32.png]] overstimulated right now, and thus I'm going to go on a [[File:Ant-32x32.png]] ant about squirrels, except squirrel [[File:Squirrel-32x32.png]] is a very hard word to write with your eyes closed, so I will probably wander off topic, but what really is a good topic for random free writing? How about [[File:Music-2-32x32.png]] music, but that's very confining.  How music tastes, like metal and chocolate [[File:Chocolate-47x47.jpg]], and....  Shoe laces.  Which taste nothing like [[File:Shoes-32x32.png]] shoes, nor laces, do NOT ask how I know that, and my left ring finger feels weird, and I don't know why, but I'm talking much much to much about myself, and thus we come to the first sequitor of the evening in which a flying monkey [[File:Monkey-32x32.png]] appears from the very depths of the dark sea itself to accost young maidens [[File:TinkerbellUnion.jpg]] saving young and strapping young men from very large unicorns [[File:pink_unicorn_icon_by_gescheitert.gif]] with nothing but evil thoughts on their mind.  Which reminds me of a bad fanfic I once read about how a human met a charr, and had little charr babies, which makes no sense, because the two species would not be compatible .  Additionally, they defeated them in combat , but there are not female charr in combat, so that would be....  Odd.  Because then it would have to be gay , otherwise it wouldn't make sense, but then, where did they get the little charr from, which reminds me of a conversation I had about Lady Gaga where I had to explain to a group of 20 year olds what a hermaphrodite is, it was very amusing until the point where they all started giving me wierd looks, and


 * --Łô√ë [[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg|Roar.]]îğá†ħŕášħ 03:39, September 23, 2009 (UTC), edited ◄mendel► 11:15, September 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * Horse + donkey = mule. I rest my case :P *shudders* --Gimmethegepgun 05:48, September 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * Strange combination is strange Random Time  06:11, September 23, 2009 (UTC)

Mendeeeeeeel
Wikia made disgusting changes to the Monaco skin, particularly those involving the masthead and article tabs. And what the hell is Special:MyHome? Fix it please! 19:33, September 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * MyHome looks like a glorified RC to me. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  19:38, September 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm a bit busy right now. -- ◄mendel► 22:37, September 23, 2009 (UTC)

Nyquil based Hallucinations

 * It does absolutely no justice to your prose to say that there's evidence suggesting that at least one (if not several) of the popes in the middle ages were females. So, in order to ensure that all due praise is heaped upon the above, I won't mention it. (If I do, I blame the trojan horse, which used correctly, helps reduce the risk of equinely transmitted diseases and reduces the likelihood of unwanted pregnancy. Use as directed.)  &mdash; Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 06:16, September 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * Those popes didn't have any cleavage to speak of. -- ◄mendel► 17:54, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

Shameless advertisement and Giga ripoff
Come and take a look at my elite skill contest!--El_Nazgir 16:28, September 29, 2009 (UTC)

Your edit to the Zchallenge page
You said that the future prediction may change. Why is that? I asked on the talk page there, but I have no idea if you'll be passing by there again sometime soon. Are the rotations going to be reset for some reason? Or is it because of the plan to remove hero battles (are there any citations for that anyway? I've heard lots of people say it but no one official)? 199.102.47.72 15:56, October 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * I see you've received an answer there, and I've also butted in. Since you've started to edit all over the wiki in a useful way, why not make an account on wikia so we can recognize you when you do it again? (Or log in if you have one.) Thank you for sharing your thoughts! -- ◄mendel► 21:43, October 8, 2009 (UTC)

uhhh... I broke something
My final line (several lines in editing window) are beneath the bottom of the page because... well... for no reason that's obvious enough for me to notice. Just thought I'd give you a shout. A F K When Needed 18:39, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * I used my time machine and fixed it already. -- ◄mendel► 18:42, October 12, 2009 (UTC)

Doing the right thing wrong
Forgive me, I know I can't talk on such a matter. But, when pointing out things that Rose has done, do you always have to come down on her like a ton of bricks?

I doubt she'd ignore you if you said "Yo, thanks for [1], [2] and [3] ! I appreciate you trying to make GuildWiki a better, more friendly place to be. By the way, it might be worth trying to explain why this is bad for GuildWiki and rely less on using the policy to solely make your point, as then contributors who have a problem with authority will be more likely to take what you say on board. Regards, Mendel ."

It might just be me, but when you point out something she has done wrong, you always seem to... be more blunt than you normally are. I don't think you're an overly blunt person who lets that get in the way of your point. Except when you talk to her. A F K When Needed 22:12, October 15, 2009 (UTC) (Yes, I'm pretty much expecting you to pop onto my Talk Page with an identical header.)


 * Yes, I was in a bit of a hurry this morning, and it occurred to me later that I could have polished that a bit more. Especially the header. It is only sort of implied that I think mentioning the policies to those people at that time was the "right thing", and I fear she didn't read it that way, judging from her response. -- ◄mendel► 22:38, October 15, 2009 (UTC)

Broken Links...
&mdash; Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 09:44, October 20, 2009 (UTC)
 * Deleted. You can find a link atop RecentChanges. -- ◄mendel► 05:51, October 22, 2009 (UTC)

Janitorial rights
I'd like to request image move (if you need rights for this) and deletion powers :< Jennalee 10:56, October 20, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think you must be at least admin for deletion powers. Image move is a little easier, I have it as a (rollback) user group, which was given to me for that very reason.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 14:50, October 20, 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. And yes, you'd need admins to have delete. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 17:36, October 20, 2009 (UTC)
 * Nice try! Random Time  17:53, October 20, 2009 (UTC)
 * But but... Power comes with responsibility, and there's so much more of that attached to being an admin :( Jennalee 21:30, October 20, 2009 (UTC)

Pic doesn't wanna update
File:Lina icewind.png doesn't wanna update for some reason, when I upload a new version it shows the old one (no it's not a browser issue), when I upload a 2nd new one, it shows the new version in the "previous versions".... then I tried reverting to that, but it STILL shows old version, can you please fix this? Thanks. -- 00:31, October 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * It is a cache issue, because I see the updated version, if that version is on Shing Jea.--Łô√ë [[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg|Roar.]]îğá†ħŕášħ is hosting a Card Creation Contest! 00:34, October 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow, you're a good spotter. :D I have tried reloading the image several times but it still loads the old one =( --[[Image:Takisig2.png]] 00:44, October 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * I uploaded a version with PPE now, so the big one updated and is fixed, but the thumbnail version is still the old one >_> seems to be the same bug as with the Dragon Gauntlet pics I once uploaded long ago... I hope it'll fix itself over time. --[[Image:Takisig2.png]] 03:21, October 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * It's a server issue. If you have purged the Image (with ), waited some time (quarter hour to an hour) and did that again, all that's left is to use Special:Contact to report it. You can see that the image has uploaded correctly by displaying it in a size that hasn't been used yet; you'll usually see the new version then. -- ◄mendel► 05:55, October 22, 2009 (UTC)

zomg
Not sure who else to call for this one :P Anyway, my comment there says it all really. And though the history says otherwise, I ASSURE you that his name was signed when I edited it, especially since it would be impossible for me to add that since I used the + button and not a full page edit --Gimmethegepgun 13:46, October 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * I forwarded this to wikia staff, it seems to be a server issue. -- ◄mendel► 22:49, October 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * What I found a bug? 0_o I don't understand, what did I do?? Fleshcrawler Soban 13:55, November 1, 2009 (UTC)


 * Don't worry about it. The wiki software has had more random issues, but they mostly either don't matter or can easily be fixed. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  13:59, November 1, 2009 (UTC)
 * You didn't do anything, and it will most likely (read:hopefully) never happen to you again. -- ◄mendel► 18:02, November 1, 2009 (UTC)

Guild Wars on Linux
Recently switched to Linux and it runs excurtiatingly slow on it with wine. How were you able to get it running? Please and thank you. &mdash; Powersurge360  06:28, October 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * You need to install the video drivers that actually provide access to the 3D acceleration hardware. They're often sort of proprietary, so they don't install out of the box. -- ◄mendel► 07:52, October 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * So where might I find these drivers? I can't figure it out and I'm blaming it on me being tired, but if it's me being incompetent I'll get the answer while you're available, lol. &mdash; Powersurge360  08:05, October 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * For ubuntu, they were accessible via synaptic in the third-party repository, I think - I'm no sure, it's been awhile. Since I don't know your Linux distribution nor the make and model of your graphics card, it's a little hard to get more detailed than that. -- ◄mendel► 08:11, October 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the help. I'm sure that it's nothing I can't handle now that I know the problem, I just wanted the advice I could get just in case. Hopefully I'll get it up before the Halloween events end. If I don't do this, I'll dual boot for the weekend, lol. &mdash; Powersurge360  08:17, October 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * About Ubuntu, have you checked out the 9.10 sweetness? Released thursday :) Random Time  13:24, October 30, 2009 (UTC)

This is a public Service Announcement courtesy of GD&D
Please update your available times so that I can arrange the (hopefully) last session in the current campaign.--Łô√ë îğá†ħŕášħ is hosting a Card Creation Contest! 00:14, November 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * Nice! -- ◄mendel► 05:11, November 2, 2009 (UTC)

mgdoNEHt
Hi! xSutZir
 * Hi! Do I know you? You seem to speak with a strange tongue ... -- ◄mendel► 22:21, November 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * *sigh* It was an obvious spambot. Why do you have to be so annoying about things like this?  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 22:59, November 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * Have a guess why I didn't delete it.. :p --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  23:01, November 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * I need to be educated about spambots that single out the accounts of two largely inactive admins (but not PanSola). Is it the fact that the letters are jumbled? -- ◄mendel► 23:31, November 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * Talk:Inscription/Archive1+User_talk:Takeya
 * Gotta give him credit for everything it's done, eh? ;) (Maybe a range block for 91.214.45.xx so it stops?) --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  10:23, November 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * Range block would probably block many others, range softblock might work (can't edit until logged in, but can create account)  Random  Time   10:45, November 22, 2009 (UTC)


 * It's a narrow block (only last 2 digits are variable), but yes, there'd probably be other 'victims' as well. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  10:48, November 22, 2009 (UTC)


 * I beg to disagree, there probably won't. The IP falls into the range of altushost.com, an internet host registered in Belize, but the IP is in the UK (one or two hops off a router in London, possibly in Luxembourg if that's what "lxb" stands for), so the probability is high that it's a blackhat address; furthermore, we have no contributions other than these 4 from any IP in that /24 subnet. I've blocked the next one in sequence now, trying to forestall the next edit, using softblock as RT recommends. -- ◄mendel► 11:33, November 22, 2009 (UTC)


 * Weird bot, found contributions on gaming and here for one IP, on another wiki for another, what IPs has it used here? Thanks. Joey (talk) 22:41, November 22, 2009 (UTC)


 * 91.214.45.45, .46, .47 and .48. IP .49 has been blocked preemptively. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  22:47, November 22, 2009 (UTC)

aedi lanigironu na
Hi! xSutZir A F K  When  Needed  11:55, November 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi! gdegYDsr Cress Arvein [[Image:Cress sig.JPG]] 22:26, November 22, 2009 (UTC)

Hey Mendel!
I'm KJ, an admin over at PvX. I'm sick and tired of our MediaWiki.css over there. Unregistered users can hardly use our page because of how ridiculous it looks for them. I was wondering if you could help me make a .css similar to this site's (something close to monobook), so we don't have to force people to click "monobook" everytime they sign up :/. Hope you can help. Karate  Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">01:25, 2 December 2009
 * If you had been logged into your #pvx channel on GameSurge after you left the #wikia chat, I would already have done so. ;) -- ◄mendel► 07:27, December 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * What now? Oh, yea, the wikia chat the other day. Yea...irssi doesn't like W7 as much as I'd hoped. So, could you help me out? I feel like I'm sprinting to catch up with all this wikia stuff, especially since I'm the newest admin >.< <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">15:54, 2 December 2009
 * There are other chat clients. I have a hard time helping you when I can't chat with you and can't edit the skin files on pvx; you could just copy MediaWiki:monaco.css to your personal w:c:pvx:Special:MyPage/monaco.css for testing and have a look to see if it's missing anything. Or even @import ours there (but then you'd also see our seasonal changes). -- ◄mendel► 16:20, December 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, I'll give that a try. Btw, my MSN is karatejesus_kj@hotmail.com (if you use MSN). If you don't use MSN, I'll hop on the gwirc in a bit. I'm at work and need to get some stuff done before I goof around too much. <font color="Black" face="cambria">Karate [[File:KJ for sig.png]] <font color="Black" face="cambria">Jesus  <font face="Arial" color="gray" size="1">16:29, 2 December 2009

Edit Count figure

 * Same here on opera. Also the small icons that link to your userpages on other wikis.--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]<font color="Green">El_Nazgir 14:05, December 5, 2009 (UTC)
 * That is an experimental feature that is as yet unfinished (it needs to be done differently). I hope you were not inconvenienced by this. -- ◄mendel► 19:41, December 5, 2009 (UTC)
 * No, no, not at all.
 * I just wanted to bring your attention to it in case you weren't aware of it. A_F_K_sig_2.jpg <font color="SteelBlue">A F K <font color="SteelBlue">When  <font color="SteelBlue">Needed  22:30, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

User:M.mendel/wikianswers
"Ooooo?
 * Efforts to teach English to fish have never progressed much beyond this stage."

You win. Here's a cookie. *hands Mendel a crumbly choco-chip cookie* Khono 02:11, December 8, 2009 (UTC)


 * I bow and eat your delicious cookie. -- ◄mendel► 03:22, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

Wintersday
Have a happy and a merry! &mdash; Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 18:12, December 25, 2009 (UTC)
 * Crystal Snowflake.png Merry X-mas!!! Crystal Snowflake.png -- F1Sig.png <font face="Comic Sans MS" color="darkred"> † F1 ©  Talk  18:40, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

Happy New Year
Happy New Year! --  <font face="Comic Sans MS" color="darkred"> † F1 ©  Talk  11:14, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

Hey, listen!
I am tentatively setting up a GD&D session for January 17th (16th for everyone besides mendel), for 5:00 ust until the <SPOILER TEXT REMOVED> dies. This translates to 9:00 p.m. Saturday the 16th West Coast USA. If you can't make it drop a message on my talk page.--Łô√ë <font color="Black">îğá†ħŕášħ is hosting a Card Creation Contest! 06:56, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

Pronz?!
On File talk:Motivator526d870f2edeb713fe9e67d2943cc230402d8013.jpg, I removed your link to a pornographic gallery on Uncyclopedia and hid all revisions containing it. Considering the conversation surrounding it and that you knew at least one of the contributors was a minor, you really should have realized that was a bad idea. 10:17, January 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sigh. Thank you. -- ◄mendel► 12:19, January 14, 2010 (UTC)

stop it
Please stop counteracting me without even saying anything. It makes me feel like you don't even respect me anymore. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 15:13, February 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * I wrote a detailed edit summary; I kept the category you added and fixed an error. I didn't expect there'd be a need for discussion on this edit. (And in fact you're not discussing it now.) -- ◄mendel► 17:29, February 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * The only thing that was actually wrong with that edit was that I removed the includeonly tags. There was no reason to do a full revert of my edit - in fact, by doing so, you re-broke the formatting that I had fixed.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 20:56, February 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, the &gt; escaped me because it was on the same line as the onlyinclude tag that you removed. "Undo" seemed the fastest way to achieve what I wanted. -- ◄mendel► 23:33, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Wikisoft
That guy seems to be trying to acheive "Google Bombing" in hope to increase the visibility of french Wikia wikis. I dont like his ways but i can't say french wikis dont need a little help. — TulipVorlax 18:00, February 10, 2010 (UTC)

Formulation
Would you prefer "please discuss things with me on the Wiki on which they are to be found" ?

What I said was good practise. People knowing what you're talking about generally is. A F K When Needed 17:08, February 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * I already stated, "your talkpage,your call" -- I merely thought you were a little harsh on Miss Lauren, she couldn't have known it would be unwelcome as it generally isn't. -- ◄mendel► 22:12, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about?
 * Not my talk page.
 * I wasn't trying to be harsh (I can think of a few other things I considered adding in but didn't - e.g. my talk page is this way -->)
 * But it's not the first time (scroll up on that page) that she's done that.
 * It's really a bad habit. A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 23:15, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Why is it "bad", exactly? If you meet somebody you know from crafting on the street, and they say "good morning", do you say "don't talk to me here, we're not in crafting!"? Talk pages are for being social, we impose very few limits what to be social about, and IMO that is good. -- ◄mendel► 23:05, February 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * I did say please.
 * And when someone is talking about comments not even made here (without saying so) or talking about things you're not likely to think of... it's not like she said "So AFK, I heard you got perma'd from the Wiki" which would be much more prominent in my mind.
 * I don't like to give new people a list all at once of what they're doing wrong. Too much to take in more often than not.
 * Like I said; she already did that. I was starting off with the Wiki thing (as the timer was a once off edit I'd forgotten about and thus /shrugged when I saw the comment initially) and then the next time mention about possibly editing my talk page when appropriate. A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 23:15, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

User priorities
Mendel, I don't believe I've brought this up with you before, but I have mused on it, and the current discussion on the admin noticeboard refreshed it in my mind. It seems to me that your priorities are skewed when it comes to dealing with users- you value new and problem users, particularly ones who are causing trouble or have no redeeming qualities, but you take experienced and capable contributors for granted.

You are always helpful and courteous to new users, and you're extremely conscious of the impressions they might receive from various interactions with other users (see Miss Lauren, etc). You're always ready to side with the underdog and help people understand and integrate with the community (see AFK last year, Warwick, yarrow on UA, recently Ariyen, etc). It seems as though you have infinite empathy and patience when dealing with these people. Those are positive qualities, mendel, and I appreciate the time you take in your role as a good shepherd.

But at the same time, you can be positively dense when dealing with users that you should, by all rights, be the most familiar with- users who form the very backbone of this wiki. RoseOfKali, for instance. She's been faithful to GuildWiki since time immemorial; an enormous amount of our screenshot content is thanks to her efforts. And she's had a lot of crap in her life in the last year or so. Yet you've been downright rude to her at times! You declined her RfA and waited for months before explaining your decision, and you even went so far as to call her a bitch on her talk page. And Ishmael has spent an extraordinary amount of time working here for no profit, using his technical expertise to write templates, comb the .dat, and maintain the wiki. We owe him a tremendous debt of gratitude for all he's done. You know Ish is protective of his work because you participated in the discussion a while ago where PanSola altered his .css code without consulting him. Yet you don't seem to take that into account at all, because you've managed to offend him twice now by reverting his actions with no discussion.

Mendel, I don't want you to think that I'm calling you out here (although I guess I am), and I don't want you going on the defensive. I just want you to remember that our older users aren't made of stone, and they deserve the same consideration you give to everyone else. 01:47, February 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * I wasn't aware of treating Dr Ishmael any different - in fact, I understand that you are in effect asking me to treat valued users differently from new users. My understanding of YAV runs counter to this request. Every user action is potentially subject to scrutiny, every doubt is merited to be heard, and so was mine. Dr Ishmael waltzed over me; he's already suspected me of going after him personally, and he did so again, and this false accusation already violates AGF. How do I deserve to be treated? Just because I'm the guy who always looks for the way forward, to a way out of the mess it is ok to insult me and to call my integrity into question publicly without proper facts and argument. I've never gone as far as that; I question actions I don't understand, and in this special case, I have accepted the consensus once it was pointed out to me and implemented a solution (the page move) that I was ok with, and from the look of things, Dr Ishmael as well. And then I turned my back on the wiki because I couldn't bear it any longer.


 * I'm sorry for the late answer, I have avoided the wiki since February 24th. The reason was this quote: "Or is our bureaucrat too busy with more important things to pay attention to what's actually happening on the wiki? Do you just check the deletion log to see what I've deleted that you can revert to irritate me? Because that's exactly what it feels like you're doing, and yes, it's working." I am very much insulted by the insinuation that I am being influenced by (nonexistant!) personal issues; I thank Gimmme for his support in this matter, but I do assume that most other wiki users silently agree with him [Dr Ishmael] (nobody called him out for NPA either). Entropy expects me to read RC, and I already said I wouldn't; AFK expects me to not check on the sysop's use of the sysop tools, and nobody contradicts him. Given this reputation and these expectations, I don't see how I can be useful to this wiki any longer, and I hereby offer my resignation from sysop and bureaucrat duties.


 * I feel that my values have, over the past year, helped to keep this wiki from drama; I'm proud of our rather short block log; and while that may be owed to our, in comparison to gww, smaller number of contributors, I think that gww's admin attitude attracts disruption. (Case in point is the affair where a user afraid of other impersonating him didn't get told "don't worry, we'll ban any impersonators", but instead got trolled by mock impersonation that weren't (and to this day haven't been) blocked, because the impersonations were done by admins or with their approval. These kind of double standards don't fly with me, I'll never edit gww as long as they exist.) It's up to you to set the new course; good luck with that. -- ◄mendel► 11:19, March 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * This may sound surprising, but I'm sad to hear this. I didn't want to get involved in the above, because I was directly mentioned there, which would have made anything I said look un-objective. I seem to be "good" at being mis-read. :P But I do want to say that it's people like you who help keep order, despite the questioning and "frownies" from other users, which is something that often "comes with the job." The reason I prefer this wiki a thousand times over the official one is exactly what you stated about their admins - calling them a "drama magnet" is an understatement. I hope our "new course" doesn't go in that direction, in fact I'd prefer it not change at all. I would ask you to reconsider your decision, but sounds like you've made up your mind for a while now. I will welcome you if you decide to return. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 12:48, March 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * Ok, so wow, where do I start? Admin conflict: there's no issue with checking another admin's actions out; that's why we have multiple admins with different viewpoints. I think the issue comes up on how to respond to what you discover. I don't expect perfect responses, just improvements from response to response. In this case with conflict with Ish, I just think that you two do have room for improvement in responses. Ish being a little less touchy, and you digging a bit more (talk histories or asking) before reverting. As for the perception that you're going after Ish, well, perceptions can be very powerful things and have to be closely watched and controlled (hard to seem impartial, eh?).


 * BCrat role: it did seem to drag out a bit, but that occasionally happens. Not a real deal breaker for me. It did seem a bit odd that you would just let it hang with the previous conflict between you and Rose still on mind. Like I said above, it's a perception issue.


 * Future and philosophy: I think part of the issues you see with GWW stem from the difference of "User improves himself" vs "user gets help improving himself". With a smaller wiki it's easier to do the latter, whereas a larger wiki will just wait for the former and not bother as much with the latter. As to the future of this wiki (and possibly your involvement), I think you have been a strong balancing force to complacency. But if you come back (and I do think it'd be a net good), I do think you'd need to re-tool your role a bit, perhaps to more of an observer and encourager and less an actor or something. /stream-of-thought --JonTheMon 15:19, March 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict)
 * "Dr Ishmael waltzed over me; he's already suspected me of going after him personally, and he did so again, and this false accusation already violates AGF."


 * You might want to read what I wrote again: "Because that's exactly what it feels like you're doing." I did not accuse you of anything directly, I was describing how the situation felt to me, and it did indeed feel like you were singling me out for some reason.
 * "I question actions I don't understand"


 * The problem was that you only questioned my actions after you reverted them. If you had truly applied AGF to my actions, then you should have "assumed" that I had good reasons for them, and you should have asked me to explain them BEFORE you blatantly overruled me.
 * And you might want to re-evaluate your own actions before you accuse GWW admins of double standards (although I completely agree with you on that). Like Felix said, you are extremely empathetic to new users, and you easily forgive them for mistakes, no matter how stupid they may be.  When it comes to wiki veterans, however, you expect us to have a perfect understanding of wiki philosophy/policy and call us out for even the tiniest missteps.
 * But, meh, whatever. If my "insults" were what drove you away, then here's some good news: I'm planning on leaving for good soon.  I've spent way too much time on this wiki over the past few years, nearly all of it overshadowed by GWW, and it's definitely time for me to move on.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 15:57, March 19, 2010 (UTC)

To clarify my response: (long!)

We've always held that admins are just regular editors with extra tools. When there are two opinions about an edit, we follow "revert and discuss". I do the same with new users. I don't usually forgive them any more mistakes than I do experienced users, except when they're doing too many things at once (getting slammed with 5 minor wiki-tradition infractions at once can put one off the wiki), and that has never been necessary with experienced editors. I am more helpful to them, for example, when they need to have explained what our 1RV rule is or why we have community consensus, I explain it to them. As you may have noticed, I have a hard time explaining this to experienced GuildWiki members, because to do so without being patronizing and not using an approach they have so far not picked up on is difficult (and it is rarely ever necessary). Most of the time they're also self-confident enough to ask or discuss, while new users neeed to build confidence in the community. (And I don't accept the "size" argument - being welcoming and explaining things is something that everyone can do, and when there's a wiki culture that promotes this, bigger size means there are more people who explain as well.) ''Rose does the same thing pretty much whenever somebody new posts screenshots: she doesn't point to our image guide and says "get better, or we'll delete it", she explains in detail what is wrong and how it gets better. It's a sign of valueing the users and their contributions.''

But back to the editors with tools. Dr Ishmael (and the, unknown to me, consensus) wanted the page deleted, I wanted it kept. I undelete the page and start a discussion, standard operating procedure. The undeletion has no immediate negative consquence: there is no vandalism, personal attacks or anything on the page; its content is even about the game and correct. Having it undeleted affords the community members a better opportunity to take part in the discussion. I expressed my motive for keeping the page on the discussion I started; I didn't criticize his, because I didn't even know it. When we have different opinions, it doesn't mean one opinion is wrong; in fact, our opinions have the same weight as any editor's, and I found a solution that accomodates both: the content is no longer in mainspace, yet it is kept. A consensus solution, something we strive for. (And I find that explaining things to new users often helps bring about this consensus.) To see this as me "overruling" another editor completely misconstrues what this situation is about.

Most reverts, even of experienced users, is allotted less care than I did of mine: unfortunately, often a terse note on the revert suffices (sometimes there is none); it is rare that the person who reverts starts the discussion. I've always held (and (I believe) led by example) to do reverts with more information and more readiness to discuss. I hope nobody can honestly claim that I have treated the revert of Dr Ishmael's deletion with any less care than I would the revert of any other editor who knows what a revert is. If there is, as Felix contends, a class of users whom we may not revert before discussing it first - and how else am I to interpret his "reverting without discussion" - then you instill an authority into them that, by GuildWiki tradition, nobody here is allowed to have (for the sake of argument, anyway; we know that in reality many people would be shy to do just that). That's where my side note about gww comes in - where Gordon Ecker's decision to review the use of the permaban tool raised public outcry and much drama.

In any case, Felix chides me for "reverting without discussion" -- Dr Ishmael re-reverts me with no more discussion than "useless wiki-bloat" as an edit summary, but he doesn't get a note to his talkpage. We've actually come full circle - one of my first edits here almost put me off the wiki altogether, because it was [ reverted] without discussion. Felix, please re-examine the standard that you hold me to. I don't believe it is fair.

Re: the "accusation": most of you know me for over a year now, and the fact that Dr Ishmael is certain enough of it to publish that thought, others uncertain enough of it to not protest, and Felix able publish that I seem biased against experienced editors, means I'd better get out before my reputation deteriorates further. It is not a reputation I like to have; I have tried to avoid it by every action; and since I don't know how else to avoid it, to escape the feeling that it brings means to leave the wiki. To me personally, the suspicion alone constitutes an insult of the highest order, one that I bodily felt and that made me avoid the wiki for longer than I ever saw the need to before.

Dr Ishmael, as should have become clear now, I did not "overrule" you; nor am I leaving the wiki because of what you said alone; my perception of the community reaction to it plays the major part, and my own sensibilities, of course. I bear you no grudge, and in fact, I wish you and your family all the best for the future.

Rose, I thank you for your kind words, you've been very patient with me. -- ◄mendel► 22:27, March 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * Shame to see you go. Gonna miss you. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 12:29, March 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * See, there's the problem again. It seems like you're not even trying to understand my position on this, you just continually rebutt my arguments by re-asserting your own.  I guess I'll try to explain myself one more time.
 * The way I see it, you were in a position where you did not have full knowledge of the situation, and you should have endeavored to gain that knowledge (either by searching RC or by directly querying the people involved in the situation) before you decided to do anything. The way it happened, though, you just swooped in out of nowhere to revert an action which had already been under discussion for some time.  Forget wiki policy/procedure for a moment and think about how it looks to the rest of us when you (seemingly randomly) do something like this.
 * To me, immediately reverting the deletion without even trying to know the situation implied that you were ignoring both AGF and YAV - the impression I got was that you assumed I had made the deletion on a whim, rather than in good faith after achieving consensus, and that you felt I was not valuable enough to bother asking me directly. Actually, I made sure to achieve that consensus specifically because I knew you had a habit of "rescuing" pages that no one else would think twice about deleting.
 * Yes, I made a mistake by not linking to the discussion in my delete reason, and maybe that would've avoided this whole stupid fiasco. In any case, this is the last argument I'm going to make about it.  Thank you for the well-wishes, and I wish the same for you.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 14:50, March 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * See, there's the problem again. It seems like you're not even trying to understand my position on this, you just continually rebutt my arguments by re-asserting your own.
 * I did endeavour to find info, I looked on the deletion summary and the page's talk. The info was on the parent page's talk, and I could have found it there. What can I say, I'm not perfect. However, having found that, I still want to keep the page. I would still have undeleted it and discussed. This is what we do on the wiki.
 * Your idea that I "assumed [you] had made the deletion on a whim, rather than in good faith" is based on nothing, and in fact I never assumed that. Your impression that I "felt [you were] not valuable enough to bother asking [you] directly" is wrong, because your motive wasn't in question; I just wanted to keep the page. You are completely on the wrong track re: those two points, and nothing I write seems to be able to convince you otherwise.
 * Felix thinks I should have foreseen that my action would create this impression for you, and that I should have acted otherwise. I should have forgiven you this weakness (that you are touchy when it comes to you perceiving your authority being questioned) and accounted for that, much as I account for new editors not knowing how this wiki works. For that, I would have needed to remember this weakness, and foreseen your anger. I didn't. That is unfortunate, and I regret it. It was never my intention to anger you, and if I had seen a way to avoid it, I would have.
 * It is not your initial initial deletion, but rather your re-deletion of the page and my discussion that I hold to not be made in good faith, but in anger, and I could probably make a case that my discussion was not "valuable enough" for you to be respected. I've seen neither apology nor justification from you for that, beyond the schoolyard argument of "he started it", and the possible inference that this constitutes a "tiny misstep". I'm not satisfied with that. Are you?
 * -- ◄mendel► 18:14, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Addendum: We've never discouraged a voice because it came "out of nowhere"; in fact, that is precisely what GW:YAV tells us not to do. -- ◄mendel► 18:36, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

We can be exile buddies!
Although no one actually noticed I left. Eh. Yes I know it's contradictory to write about not being here on here, but this is the easiest way to talk to mendel. Also: I always believed in you, and always will, and hope that we remain in touch.--Łô√ë <font color="Black">îğá†ħŕášħ is hosting a Card Creation Contest! 03:51, March 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, we've all been wondering where you got off to since you seemed to have disappeared from the face of the earth. I conjectured that maybe the swine flu got you or something. Just the other day (today?), Warwick did  in IRC. And I have always been waiting patiently for the results of your card contest. It is good to know that you are still alive. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 04:09, March 20, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your service
I don't have anything else to say. You have performed admirably despite constantly being in positions of authority that you never wanted. I know that I've done my fair share of Mendel-bashing, too. So I thank you as well for putting up with the whiny brat of a "boss" that I've been these past years. :) (T/C) 04:09, March 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm re-reading my talkpage, and with all the talk of me not able to admit to imperfection, I am in retrospect surprised that you mention "Mendel-bashing" -- you know, it never seemed to me you did.
 * I am quite proud of having earned your trust and respect so much that you gave me this authority. -- ◄mendel► 07:30, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

I cared!
But I wasn't sure what to do about it. And I'm still not. Frankly, I'm holding out for a miraculous turn of events. 07:44, April 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * i care... I missed something I guess... What happened :S -- F1Sig.png <font face="Comic Sans MS" color="darkred"> † F1 ©  Talk  10:20, April 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I feel that I don't have the trust any more that I need to be an effective admin and Bureaucrat. You may have missed User_talk:M.mendel and Admin_noticeboard; I also sent some emails and had some chats, but there wasn't any definitive answer.
 * The next non-miraculous turn of events is going to be me asking Wikia to de-crat me, in a few days. I believe either move isn't going to upset the wiki. -- ◄mendel► 10:39, April 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * <small style="line-height:130%;">To make myself more clear, my first post on the "User priorities" section above contains the words Given this reputation and these expectations, I don't see how I can be useful to this wiki any longer, and I hereby offer my resignation from sysop and bureaucrat duties, and I put a pointer to it on Felix's and Entropy's talkpages when I wrote that. To date, this offer has been neither accepted nor declined. -- ◄mendel► 10:47, April 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * And there I was hoping it blew over... RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 12:14, April 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Most of us cared (one way or another). And I too, hoped this would blow over. The wiki still needs people like you, and people like Dr I. Mabey you should phone each other, so you could use your voices as, and not just read each others text. I think that would make it easier to solve your differences. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 13:36, April 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not about Dr Ishmael - I believe he's not the only one who thinks I'm not doing my job well. That nobody came out and said, "I think you're doing a good job, please don't resign" (your words, Arnout, were shame to see you go) speaks volumes to me. (Though maybe it just means I WoT too much, so "tl;dr".) -- ◄mendel► 14:03, April 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Mendel, I would have outright rejected your resignation the day it was offered if I felt it would have changed your mind. If I misread the situation, I apologize. I was hesitant to take any action because I felt that it had been my words that pushed you over the edge. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 02:57, April 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry for the late answer, I have avoided the wiki since February 24th. See the paragraph that starts with this quote - it weren't your words that tilted the balance (I'm not "over the edge" as there is no cliff I'm falling off), though they did come down on one side of it. (I know that's only half of an answer.) It probably was a mistake to make this decision on my own. -- ◄mendel► 09:51, April 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * Still I think a phone call could work miracles. I don't really understand what you are saying, Mendel, but I'm assuming it's positive. And I personlly didn't have a clue of what was going on, as I was very busy in RL. If I had known, I might have broken some rules to set things straight. But on a very little side note, do we get to vandalize the shit out of your page again? Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 06:46, April 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Vandalize? No, but I've got another idea I hope you'll like. Give me 24 hours. (And I wonder which rules you would have broken.) -- ◄mendel► 09:51, April 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I am all ears.
 * And the rules? What about whiping talkpages and userpages trying to get people calm down? What I did a long while back with a fuss around Entropy didn't work (I placed comments that where drownded in a walls of text), so I figuered I'd need to attract more attention. And if that means breaking rules to protect this wiki, I would have risked a perma ban. But I didn't know what was going on, so there was very little I could do. And I still regret that. And I hope that you, and the people you mention (those who don't like you) change their minds.
 * Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 10:15, April 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well it took me long to thing of somthing to write down, and well... I still don't know what to right down. So I hear by say: "I think you're doing a good job, please don't resign". I saw some things going on but I mostly ignore large walls of text as the confuse me, and Hoped just like the others that it would just blow over. But Arnout if your going to Break some rules and it helps. Than count me in. I will vandalize the living shit out of every page if mendel will stay :D. (but will reverse it and stuff of course. Don't want to screw up Wiki :P) -- F1Sig.png <font face="Comic Sans MS" color="darkred"> † F1 ©  Talk  11:34, April 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I wrote a very long edit, and lost it in the editconflict. I might rewrite it later todya. sorry. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 11:41, April 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * You said: "(your words, Arnout, were shame to see you go) speaks volumes to me. (Though maybe it just means I WoT too much, so "tl;dr".)". I don't really know what you mean. If me standing out and asking you to stay would have made you change your mind, then f*ck me. Seeing as Rose said as much, I figured my tiny voice couln'd and wouldn't have made a difference. That is why I said what I said. Like Felix, I'd like to apologize if that is the case. Also, shit I'm talking myself into feeling guilty. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 08:54, April 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * You're not guilty. Why would you ever think your voice did not matter? Very often we don't see the effect we have on others, but it is definitely there.
 * That said, I don't know what it would take to change my mind. A good argument always helps. I'm already not an admin any more already, and since I resigned because I felt I had lost the community trust, I've sort of decided that if I ever became admin again, I'd want a new RfA. I'm about equally unsure whether I'm still a good bureaucrat for this wiki at this time; Felix seems to think so, but I don't know why.
 * (Firefox keeps old edits in the browser history, its back button has saved my edits more than once.) -- ◄mendel► 21:18, April 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * So we need to find A good argument? What about all those things you did in the past? Al those people you helpted? (Including me over and over again) All those pages you Edit. Lost the trust? Pff I trust you with my ehm Userpage life :P. Really what more do you need. MENDEL! BE ADMIN AGAIN! -- F1Sig.png <font face="Comic Sans MS" color="darkred"> † F1 ©  Talk  09:16, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

re Arnout's EC: When you get ECd, Mediawiki preserves your text in a second edit box a little ways down. Also, what mendel said about FF. --- -- (contribs)  &emsp;(talk)  10:54, April 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * It wasn't the direct EC, but I had copied my text and not yet pasted it under F1's comment. And since Ii couldn't see how many indends we where at, I copied those, without pasting my comment, losing it in the proces.
 * And I move to support a new RfA, and I move to support F1. You where and still are a valuable contributor to this wiki. It is a shame that you feel forced to leave. I wish I could change that, even without your admin and Beer-crate hood. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 11:48, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

(Reset indent) I thank you for yuor support. Go read http://www.picturesforsadchildren.com/. -- ◄mendel► 21:37, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

New Userpage
I'm trying something new with my userpage - I want no words on it, only images, but anyone can contribute. Have fun! -- ◄mendel► 21:18, April 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * I R VANDAL!!! Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 09:09, April 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * I M TOO! Woot! -- F1Sig.png <font face="Comic Sans MS" color="darkred"> † F1 ©  Talk  09:16, April 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Where is the old vandalized userpage? I'd like to show it to a few friends of mine. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 11:51, April 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * User:M.mendel/vandalized A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 18:57, April 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * There's even a userbox for it, on my "real" userpage. -- ◄mendel► 21:16, April 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * Wow, Mendel, you sure have a lot of beard! --[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]<font color="Green">El_Nazgir 06:32, May 1, 2010 (UTC)

It's time I went
I'm now afraid to say anything about this for fear of raising drama and accusations. If I wasn't convinced I can't 'crat here any longer, I am now. -- ◄mendel► 06:15, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Muf, what in the name of Balthazars Beard are you talking about? Its a block of some dude spewing some rascist crap. Who care's? Or did I miss an epic talkpage battle? Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 06:37, May 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, see you around then (as a figure of speech..). --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  08:55, May 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Um, yeah. I blocked an obvious vandal.  Where's the drama in that?  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 14:44, May 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * What Arnout said, tbh. It's a 1-day random IP ban for racist trash talk on Mainspace and no other edits ever, this doesn't look "out of line" in any way. Maybe not what I would have done necessarily, depending on the mood I guess, but don't see a problem either way, neither of you would be wrong, imo. I think small differences of opinion on something this insignificant are allowed without having to ask for approval from fellow sysops, there is no solid rule, policy, or guideline to cover each specific type of vandalism and how to deal with it, as I recall. Thus, sysop discretion is to be applied, and it's absolutely unreasonable to expect that each sysop would act the same way in every situation. I don't think you should get so concerned. You two seem to have a bit of a personal disagreement going, but neither of you has gone out of line of what I had seen, so I'd just say to not dwell on your differences, not every problem has a single right answer, and each of you brings their own good things to this community. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 15:29, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * You have failed to notice that I won't be discussing this (in fact, that was the point), so my talkpage is the last place for this argument. -- ◄mendel► 19:46, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, I am very offended because you keep referring to this as "personal". -- ◄mendel► 19:51, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's only personal in the sense that it involves two persons with differing opinions. Mendel, if you disagree with something then by all means you should challenge it, regardless of your position here. Just do it with love and compassion. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 20:13, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * I won't and I can't - if I come across as "he's got his personal peeve with the doctor going again". I'm not fighting for getting taken seriously - again. I haven't got the stomach for it now. Heck, even Auron, for all the differences we used to have, recognized it wasn't personal. So I'm just going with the perceived community opinion, that I don't deserve that respect, and believe I'm wrong and you're right. -- ◄mendel► 20:46, May 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) Can you blame people for thinking it is? All the drama and controversy that you've been part of since January has been sparked by something that I did - you haven't counter-acted or overruled anyone else in that time, although that may just be because I've been a lot more active than anyone else.  If you think I'm a terrible sysop, then just say so.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 20:23, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * "$&%"$/(! If I thought you were a terrible sysop, I would have said so. In fact, there'd have been a discussion on teh admin board, and then you'd have been demoted. That didn't happen. In fact, I believe I never wrote anything to that effect, because I can't recall ever thinking it. I think you're doing a very good job.
 * However, I want the GuildWiki administrators to become better administrators - it's a natural thought because I'm looking for stuff to learn myself all the time. It follows that you're not perfect (nobody is), and that you hold what I think are prejudices as to how people who transgress community standards should be dealt with that are affecting the wiki negatively. We're working from different understandings what your (our!) job is. Dismissing this as "personal issues" is like saying "you're my pointy-haired boss, and I know my job better than you".
 * I'm bureaucrat because Entropy made me, and she made me because she felt (as did I) that a large part of the community supported what I am about. If that is no longer the case, I am no longer a good bureaucrat for the wiki (unless I fought to get my views more widely accepted again). If you are not accepting me criticising selected aspects of how you do your job, you are not accepting my bureaucrat role any longer, and if you have the community support, then, consequently, I should relinquish that role.
 * So, in short, it's not me saying you're a terrible sysop (I don't say or think that), it's you implying that I'm a terrible bureaucrat. And I'm listening. -- ◄mendel► 20:46, May 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * At least we've got that cleared up now. Regardless of what may have been implied by what I've said in the past, I don't think you're a terrible bcrat/sysop either.  I just think that if you're going to be a hands-off admin (by not watching RC), then you need to take responsibility for gaining full (or at least better) understanding of a situation before you directly overrule any administrative action.  That is what angered me more than anything else: here I am, working on the wiki every day, taking the time and making the effort to gain consensus before deleting an article that's been made obsolete, then *BOOM* you swoop in out of nowhere, without making any effort to understand the situation, and undo the deletion.  The fact that you had done the same thing with an obviously pornographic image only a month earlier is what made me take it personally, and I reacted very stupidly because of that.
 * I acknowledge that this whole mess is my fault. If I hadn't reacted so stupidly, none of this would've happened, and for that I sincerely apologize.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 00:18, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

(Reset indent) resetting indent, -- ◄mendel► 20:46, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

(also a edit conflict) How long have you been on wiki Mendel? and how long have you been doing the things you do with "love and compassion"(as Felix stated) You said that you think people don't trust you anymore and you do wrong things or what ever. And now a shit load of people here who don't want to lose you as a user and Admin alike, trying to convince you to stay and keep doing the things you already did for so long and so good. There are always some speed bumbs on the road but sometimes you just have hit the gas to get trough, get on your feet. Listen to the people who care... and stay... --  <font face="Comic Sans MS" color="darkred"> † F1 ©  Talk  20:29, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm also listening to the people who don't care. -- ◄mendel► 20:46, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * And yet you seem blind to the things we are saying... -- F1Sig.png <font face="Comic Sans MS" color="darkred"> † F1 ©  Talk  20:47, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * You and Arnout are saying that I'm the best admin in the world. Unfortunately, you seem to be a minority. -- ◄mendel► 20:55, May 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * This skill is utter faggotry, but fairly applicable. Really, how many people are discussing here? 8? Now think about how many people walk around the wiki. If there was something wrong or dysfunctional, it wouldn't just be the jaded veterans talking. Additionally, the wiki hasn't exploded. It's no biggie really. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  21:06, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Arnout (+), F1 (+), Ishy (-), Rose (-), you (+/-), Felix (+/-), Jon (more + than -, if I'm reading him right) and if you count the old admin board, Entropy (+/-), and AFK (-). I'm not waiting until everybody gets clued in about how dysfunctional this is. -- ◄mendel► 21:23, May 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Don't count me in there - I took this way too personally in the beginning, and I've been refraining from commenting on it lately because I don't want to say anything stupid again. &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 21:33, May 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Aww, crap, I was off by one.
 * Net -1, by the way (with John counted as +/-, and counting Ish). Hot damn, that's some consensus right there. Gtfo ma wikiz. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  22:20, May 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) Eh, wrote up a big long WoT, but erased it, as I doubt it would make any more sense anyway, since you counted me into a (-) when I was trying to say something totally different. You're bright enough to see that any criticism you have of Ish's actions becomes very hot very fast (which is why I called it personal, even though it's over wiki issues), and gets blown way out of proportions while at it, just like it did right here. So you need to turn it down, no matter how well intentioned it is, let others handle it if they think it needs "handling," this is a community, after all. Take a break, see what happens, and go from there. Just wanna say that I think you need a vacation from all of us. Note: not retirement, a vacation. You keep many of us on our toes, and remind us (me, at least) why we're better than GWW. That is what makes you valuable, and that is why I want you to freshen up away from us a bit and come back to be yourself again. I feel like you're burned out, and treating this as a job rather than a nerdy hobby. But what do I know?.. *shrugs* RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 22:35, May 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * I take exception to being a minus sign. A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 12:55, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

"I'm also listening to the people who don't care"
No, you're not.

Your plus and minus sign equation is not a careful estimation of who wants you to be here as an Administrator and Bureaucrat. It is a list of people who think you're currently perfect, and those who disagree. Now I'm sorry - but for someone who gives advice, judges and criticizes the actions of others, and others themselves - you sure as hell can't handle other people returning the favour.

You believe that others are imperfect and wish to help them improve. You act on that belief. In short you have the best of intentions at heart. Put yourself in their shoes. You expect people to take on board what you say and strive to be a better person. People have not said tits or GTFO - they have shown they think you are imperfect. And if you're a human being, you bloody well are.

For the life of me I can't see why you don't fiddle with the + / - equation again, notice that the consensus is easily that people want you to stay, give yourself a Sysop flag and act like nothing ever happened.

This whole thing is absurd. A F K When Needed 08:54, May 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Amen. Thank you. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 14:27, May 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm still pondering what to finally do, so some responses above still lack an answer, but I thought I'd clarify this: the minus means "does not think I currently do a good job as a bureaucrat"; I get that impression of you two because Rose recommends that I take a vacation (I'm simplifying), and AFK wrote I shouldn't be patrolling admin actions, which I do think is part of my job. So I can either change the way I operate, change the way you think, or quit the job.
 * See, I don't currently know what kind of reputation I have. If people who know me well enough strongly suspect that I might have personal issues with some of the main editors that influence my "job", that I'm not able to trust the other sysops, and am also slow to accept criticism, I'd rather quit the wiki than fight this reputation; and it has to be one or the other because I feel that having a bureaucrat with such a reputation is damaging to the community. I know that not everybody thinks this of me (I heard you, F1 and Arnout), but I'd be a bad bureaucrat for those who do. -- ◄mendel► 16:46, May 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Do a good job or a perfect job?
 * You expect others to change, why can't you if requested to? A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 17:27, May 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * The issue appears to be people disagree over what the role of a Bureaucrat is. How is that a failing of you in particular - and one on a grand enough scale to make it best for all concerned if you just leave, no less?
 * You could at least (imo) attempt to have a definition formed which is acceptable to as many people as possible, and then when one is agreed on by consensus then see if you consider yourself capable of performing that function.
 * I apologize for playing a part in this pointless and irritating drama. But you really shouldn't be driven out of the community because one troll has a different definiton of "Bureaucrat" than you do. I still hold that mine is more fair; expecting Administrators to perform their job and make judgement calls knowing someone is actively looking over their shoulder is unreasonable. Nobody's suggesting the Sysop flag makes you untouchable. If you perform a malicious edit or cause serious damage, then yes - a chinwag is necessary. While it's not your intention and you may not realize it... I wouldn't be in the least surprised if it came across to them as a lack of trust (could you blame them?). You're a Bureaucrat; you decide who is an Admin and who is not. If you promote people you believe you need to supervise you're doing it wrong.
 * Again, at the end of the day that's my opinion. I'm not a Bureaucrat, a Sysop, hell I don't have the rollback tool. I'm one contributor with an opinion; one which (as usual) nobody has agreed with, anyway.
 * tl;dr: You promote / demote as a Bureaucrat. You do everything else as a member of the community, imo. A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 17:41, May 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * "one troll" -- I'd not think any contributor to these issues a troll, and it'd be an insult to any of them unless you were referring to yourself.
 * You know from your experience on UnAnswers that in theory, the tools to pro- and demote are the only distinction, but in practice, this amounts to much more. Simply consider that to responsibly know when to exercise these powers means a bureaucrat must know what is going on with his sysops. I know there are many small wikis with absentee 'crats, but GuildWiki is strong enough that it can do better than that. The role is shaped by community expectations, and thus no two 'crats are completely alike in their role.
 * "If you promote people you believe you need to supervise you're doing it wrong." -- You don't get a crystal ball with the job; people change; people expand on the role they've been "hired for"; and there may be community issues that need to be raised and re-raised to sense what the current community consensus is. One such issue would be whether a taboo-breaking comment posted to the a place not suited for discussion merits blocking the person as vandal, or rather a friendly note to the talkpage; but I feel that I can't raise such issues these days without causing undue drama (i.e. without a "fight" breakin out), and that makes me a bad person to do it.
 * If I am understood to be "fighting" with sysops rather than debating the course/policy of the wiki, then my ability to fairly use the bureaucrat powers is in doubt. I feel that it is then better to do this when I'm not a bureaucrat. (Given your UnAnswers history, I believe your view rathers differs from mine in this.)
 * I guess the tl;dr summary is, it's not as simple as you make it out to be. -- ◄mendel► 22:47, May 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, I was discussing the opinions the two of us hold. The alternative makes no sense at all.


 * "You expect others to change, why can't you if requested to? A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed"
 * "The role is shaped by community expectations ◄mendel►"
 * Your comment doesn't apply for me. I've an expectation of Bureaucrats. The team combined. That's... it. Maybe that's just me.


 * "One such issue would be whether a taboo-breaking comment posted to the a place not suited for discussion merits blocking the person as vandal, or rather a friendly note to the talkpage; but I feel that I can't raise such issues these days without causing undue drama (i.e. without a "fight" breakin out), and that makes me a bad person to do it. ◄mendel►"
 * If I may again offer my personal opinion, different Administrators operate differently and that's fine. Your example showed two different styles. Neither approach seemed unreasonable to me, certainly not significantly so. There is a difference between finding a problem with an Administrator and noticing one treating an issue differently than you would. There's no right approach, merely acceptable boundaries. As long as people stick to them the (vast?) majority of the time, there isn't a problem.


 * The only problem is the lack of a problem. No, really. Gravewit's gone. The frequency with which people give out about Wikia strongly, would appear to be dropping. GuildWiki's task is nearing being complete... there's nothing to draw the community together in face of a common enemy or goal. And so you're fixating on small things which aren't worth the dispute that follows.


 * tl;dr: If there's a big problem, fix it. It there's a difference of view, that's normal. Don't fix what isn't broken. A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 14:56, May 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Y'know what, fuck it.
 * You've the biggest superiority complex I've ever encountered. And you're one of the biggest bloody hypocrites, too.
 * You judge people every day because you refuse to credit your fellow Administrators as capable and reliable. Then a few people bring your attention to points about you that they consider imperfect. And... you decide to leave. WHAT?
 * With you your ego and reputation are all that matters, screw the community and the Wiki as long as you look good. And hey, my following link proves it. Yay!
 * I'd better get out before my reputation deteriorates further - ◄mendel►
 * You're an excellent Administrator. A depressingly bad Bureaucrat. So yeah, goodbye. A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 21:22, May 8, 2010 (UTC)

Changing what I think
(headline inserted by ◄mendel► 22:10, May 10, 2010 (UTC))


 * tl;dr, but since it's AFK I'm assuming he has no point and is just raging at and/or failtrolling mendel. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 22:01, May 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm meddling on UnAnswers again, I think that upset him. -- ◄mendel► 22:29, May 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Y'know, AFK had a point the whole time. Still does... :/ You criticized the hell out of me on wiki and in E-mail, crushed my ego, put a pile of dirt on it, and topped it off with a rock, yet I tried to get your point, get over it, and not be all emo about it. You on the other hand... well, what AFK said. Do as you please, nothing anyone here says is going to change what you think, it seems. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 23:04, May 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thing is, if mendel wants to rage the wiki, that's his business. Did anyone qq when I left? Sure, I hardly left with a bang but rather faded from view, but you shouldn't be bitching at him because he doesn't give a damn about this place any more. It's a dead wiki for a dead game. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 23:12, May 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * QQ? Does the party on IRC count?
 * The thing is he hasn't raged; he's still here. If I'm reading things right people have stopped caring if he's here or not, and just wish it wasn't half and half. A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 13:22, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

The key to criticising me well is not to tell me how I fail by your standards; it is to tell me how I fail by my own standards. Only then will your criticism be effective. AFK has completely failed to understand what I'm on about, and thus necessarily fails to change my mind, except by chance. I believe I'm better at changing people's minds because I am better at listening and explaining it on their own terms. In fact, when my mind changes as a result of such a discussion, you'd hardly notice because for me, it's simply a learning experience.

Way up on this page, in March, Felix posted a criticism of me. I replied, explaining my standards and my actions, but I didn't see anyone follow up on that. That would have been the way to properly change my mind; just ranting at me does nothing if you don't also attempt (and to some degree succeed) to understand what makes me act the way I do. So his "how come mendel criticises people, and gets them to change, and when I criticise mendel, he does nothing, hence he's arrogant" is really more of a "mendel criticises people well and sometimes gets them to learn, but when I criticise him badly, he refuses to obey, hence he's arrogant", and I think that's not fair. -- ◄mendel► 22:10, May 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * My first impression: Putting it that way makes you sound even more arrogant, because you're saying that your standards are the ideal, and no one else's standards matter. &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 23:15, May 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's not because it works both ways: when I try to explain something to people, I'm using their frame of reference (or try to, anyway) so they have a path of thought they can walk with me, a point to start from. In fact, I could have rephrased that sentence the other way around: The key to criticising you well is not to tell you how you fail by my standards; it is to tell you how you fail by your own standards. If we're all talking from our own standpoints, we'll never understand each other. It's imperfect enough as it is. See, reverse what you're saying, and you get as an inference that somebody who tries to convince me without trying to discover or understand my standards treats me arrogantly. It's always a journey of discover and a learning experience, because I need to get to know the other person if I want to convince them or discover where I have things to learn myself. Someone who is not prepared to be open to that won't be very convincing. -- ◄mendel► 00:12, May 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with Dr. Ishmael above. A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 18:08, May 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * See, that's why I qualified that as my "first impression," I didn't really understand what you were getting at. To be honest... I still don't.  Sure, what you're saying sounds good in theory: everyone should be perfectly empathic and try to argue on the other person's terms, to appeal to the other person's standards.  Unfortunately, very few people care enough or have enough patience to live up to that.  By expecting everyone else to do this, to live up to your standards of criticism and argument, and in effect completely ignoring any argument that doesn't measure up to that standard, you still come off as being arrogant.
 * And why is the alternative so bad? Why can't I argue based on my standards as long as I explain those standards?  If I follow the above theory and always argue from the other person's standards, aren't I abandoning my own?  If I can't argue from my standards, then why do I have standards of my own in the first place?  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 19:03, May 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * How would that work if both people apply that theory? My interpretation: They would argue with arguments/thoughts the other would have brought up if they didn't do it. And that's confusing as hell. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  19:20, May 11, 2010 (UTC)

If you're going to go...
VUslGSoEH8I

...Go, don't talk. Jink 14:59, May 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * You know, that's what I thought, too. But getting Bcrat taken off involves asking Wikia, they won't necessarily do it if it's controversial, so I though I'd wait a bit for the reaction. Then Felix posted hoping for a turn of events, and I'm giving that a chance right now (and I still haven't found an answer for Ishy's last contribution up there). Also, I'm smiling at [ this]. -- ◄mendel► 21:35, May 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * What is with everything being struck through? I think you can get another b-crate to remove you, if you are sure of it. I do know it can't be done by one's self. I own and have helped with a few other sites here on wikia. [[File:User Ariyen sig icon.gif]]riyen 06:16, May 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * What browser are you using? Is the strike-through fixed now?
 * Bureaucrat rights can only be removed by Wikia; I did check that again just now. -- ◄mendel► 07:14, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

Subnormality
Writing with pictures. -- ◄mendel► 21:52, May 9, 2010 (UTC)

I'm remaining a bureaucrat
Upon re-reading this talk, I've decided to keep the Bureaucrat position for now, and see how that works out. (I'm not going to give myself admin back, and I'm asking my fans to wait at least a month or two before running a RfA.) Thanks to everybody who expressed their confidence in me.

One of the things that struck me is how singularly well the analysis of JonTheMon still stands that he posted on March 19th; I still don't quite understand how he thinks this re-tooling is supposed to work, but I believe I've finally got the rest of his message now.

Oh, and please, could some admin warn AFK that if he's being rude to me on my talkpage once again he's going to get blocked? Because, beneficial as it may have been to have to rethink and redefine the bureaucrat role for him, his rudeness is annoying me, and really not the standard of debate I want to promote here. -- ◄mendel► 07:59, May 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * And thus my plan comes to fruition. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 10:08, May 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * I stopped being a fan of you, Mendel, but that does not mean I'm not happy you are staying (for now). Also, where are my fans, and why are they not running a RfA? ;-) Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 10:15, May 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh noes, you're not my fan any more? I must hand out more free cookies! Would you be swayed by free cookies? Or waffles? -- ◄mendel► 12:34, May 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, since my name is getting dragged back into this, I should probably clarify my "re-tooling" comment. In short, it seems to me that GWW got it right; bureaucrats there have admin powers, but are only allowed to use them for obvious tasks when another admin is not around (vandals, essentially). So you don't have this conflict of "I object to this admin action, but that action was taken by the person who is supposed to moderate admin conflict". Granted, I don't really know if that's needed here, as long as the parties can come to some other agreement. --JonTheMon 13:46, May 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * That's GWW and not here though. Here, B-crats in my opinion should revert vandalism, but if you disagree with each other as it should be with ANY user. Discuss it on the corresponding talk page or the user's talk page and hash things out to solve the problem. It's just going to be dragged out otherwise... I like for each party to hear their side and be reasonable before a judgement is made. If it's between 2 b-crats... let the third be the judge? I'm not trying to be hostile or harsh, but I'm just giving my 2cents into this as I have observed other wiki's and participated in some as well to see how things work and that is what I feel ANY wiki should take into affect/effect that I have seen many not do (not naming names here). [[File:User Ariyen sig icon.gif]]riyen 16:20, May 11, 2010 (UTC)