Talk:Soul Reaping

/Archive

NERFED
now useless, useless useless useless, the reason it was so godd was beause most necros (BiPs) had enemys dying simultaneously, whup de doo, A net, welcome to complaint city


 * Once again it is a change to reflect PvP and not PvE. Even in AB you will never approach the same number of bodies hitting the floor as anywhere in PvE...so I'm sure Soul Reaping for PvP Necros is not much affeted. But in PvE where you can get energy gains of more than +100 in 10 seconds, Soul Reaping is now woefully underpowered as a primary attribute and source of energy management...a lot of old builds go out the window now...


 * Why couldn't they have just toned down the Soul Reaping skills instead of messing with the attribute itself? It's like if they suddenly decided to make Strength only take effect on non-skill attacks, rather than nerfing Warrior attack skills. Or if they made Spawning Power only affect Ritualist Spirits. Or Expertise no longer affecting any non-Ranger skills...etc. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 17:14, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * It's not the skills that made Soul Reaping powerful, it was the innate effect. The old Soul Reaping was pretty much a limitless font of Energy provided you had enough deaths going on (which is easy to do with minions). Too bad...I never got around to playing a Necro, and now it's too late. Arshay Duskbrow 18:25, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Well, Minions/Spirits only give half Soul Reaping, rounded down...maybe if they removed that entirely it would be a more balanced approach than "every 5 seconds" crap. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 18:27, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeh, some people had better suggestions than one-boost-every-5-seconds (namely SR providing +1..3 mana regen for 1..5 seconds per death... still powerful, less abusable). -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 18:30, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Official statement: 'Soul Reaping's synergy with Spirits and minions opened up a lot of builds that simply never ran out of power. Spirits still provide half Energy, and with Soul Reaping's Energy gain limited, a player death will now provide more net Energy, which we believe will help Soul Reaping get closer to its intended function.' -- Nytemyre 18:58, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Lolz, and if two Spirits/Minions die, and then a player dies in 5 seconds, you gain nothing! So smart ANet! [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 19:04, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * My hands keep balling into fists of their own accord whenever this topic comes up, this is absolute GARBAGE. If people were abusing minions and spirits so badly in PvP, then cut the energy gain from that.  You can't infinitely generate minions non-stop since there's a limited source of bodies to use, and a cap.  Probably just negating energy from spirits would have fixed it.  Every 5 seconds is enough to make me do the impossible: Hate my bloody necromancer. -Gildan Bladeborn 19:35, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * On the "plus" side, this finally gives Necromancers a very good reason to carry Signet of Lost Souls and even Reaper's Mark. Sigh...No more can you say "Energy problems on a Necromancer? Lol!" [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 19:38, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * The solution I would've gone with is making half the energy gain regeneration and half the energy gain instant. -- Gordon Ecker 20:18, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Wow... I hadn't played my necro much since the factions changes and heroes could mm, but this... wow... this makes me want to play that character not at ALL. GAh. Cyrogenic 21:15, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * the simplest solution would be to remove soul reaping from minions and spirits entirly. this makes necromancer a pretty much dead class, at least as far as PvE is concerned. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 21:20, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah, I don't know why they did this. It doesn't solve the PvP problem of just running primary roles, such as a ritualist, or monk, but having the Necromancer as the primary profession. The Spirit Spamming retardation is just a little too abusive. They should just remove energy gain from minions and spirits, and that's all they need to do. The end. Isis In De Nile 02:17, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Removing energy gain from minions and spirits would be a really stupid idea, I think this nerf was overkill to the max but that suggestion is every bit as bad, what would happen to MM's then? Maybe just making so spirits dont effect Soul Reaping would be fine by me but making minions not effect it is a horrible idea. 123.3.32.129 07:05, 6 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Ouch, this change is brutal. DKS01 21:25, 5 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Personally, I think this is ill-advised. This is a sweeping, fundamental change to a core profession and the way it has always played. Necromancers always have been a powerful, versatile and feared profession, but never excessively powerful (IMHO), and I feel like ANet is trying to fix something that wasn't especially broken. I hope they will think about this some more and either reconsider or find a better solution, because this is a serious shift in the bedrock dynamics of the game. Arshay Duskbrow 23:23, 5 April 2007 (CDT)

now useless, useless useless useless, the reason it was so godd was beause most necros (BiPs) had enemys dying simultaneously, whup de doo, A net, welcome to complaint city

- it is not useless...calm down - Chrisworld 00:01, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * yes it is lol, soul reaping is now useless, the first 3 skills in my echo ss necro's bar, costs 55 energy, that wastes all of my energy, by the time i need to start using my other 5 skills, things start dieing, so that 55 energy wasn't a big deal. Now, i can only gain 13 energy, every 5 seconds, when that mob of guys all died within 2 seconds of each other becuase of ss. Those other 6 souls let me keep going, only getting 1/7, i can't do anything else. The obvious nerf here should of changing it so spirits didn't activate soul reaping. That would fix spirit spammers in PvP giving necro's infinite energy, and still maintain the PvE playability of the Necro, which is now lost. My Necro was my favourite guy, now, most of my builds are useless because of energy management problems. Signet of Lost souls, doesn't NEARLY make up for the lost energy from soul reaping, and Reapers Mark, would waste my elite slot. Death Queen Arabess 01:31, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

Wow. I guess my necro charactor will be used for chest collecting now (and will sit next to Ritualist on the shelf). I assume ANet is hoping we only pay attention to all the much needed goodies they gave us with this update (some of which were VERY good, like Chat skill ping to Saved Template!), and ignore this Nerf of not just a skill, but a charactor class.

This really was overkill, and you'd have to have a pretty good arguement for why it wasn't before I would take it seriously. If anything, they should have changed it to 1 energy / 2-3 Soul Reaping. Now we have 2 classes with nearly worthless primary attributes: Warrior Strength* and Necro Soul Reaping. The way it should work is something like the Paragon Leadership on deaths, or what would be better, is something like the Dervish Mysticism, gaining health along with energy when things die.


 * - anyone that says Strength is good - remember, ONLY affects attack skills, would be worth it if it always was armor ignoring (and would make more sense, a Warrior's not only strong when using a skill, but all the time)

Arena Net - Thanks for the Storage Upgrade. I won't be needing it now though, as my PvE Necro just became a storage mule. Queen Schmuck 03:24, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

Okay first you messed with the number of minions I could control (remembering good old days of controlling 50 minions), and I eventually learned to deal with it. But now you've messed with Soul Reaping?! I think this one's a big mistake. This change effects so many necromancer builds, in very fundamental ways at times. Take for example using Arcane Echo and Spiteful Spirit now. The energy cost might or might not have just skyrocketed for you now. For Soul Reaping to work, something MUST die. That's a pretty harsh condition for a primary attribute ability. Top that off with the fact that even if you wanted to run a high Soul Reaping to assure the benefits, there are so few Soul Reaping skills. Okay, I'm stopping now before I ramble on for another paragraph.--&mdash; xis10al   04:17, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

A poor change, why they didn't listen to any of the suggestions given for balancing it is beyond me. &mdash; Skuld 09:40, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

Too late. Soul reaping has been around since the beginning of the game, and just now they are making this change. Maybe reduce it further, but the 5 second rule is irresponsible. There's nothing new about the game that makes it so that if this change were necessary, it had to wait this long to be changed. Apart from the game mechanics, it doesn't even make sense from a theoretical metaphysics perspective that an energy bonus from a death couldn't trigger more than once per 5 seconds. I've been investing a lot of time making my Necro my main PvE character because of how soul reaping has worked since the beginning of the game, and now I feel much of my time spent has been pointless; which exaggerates my feelings that this was an irresponsible change. ANet needs to respect that people make play decisions based on how the game works, and that they shouldn't make changes that so drastically destroy something people have put a lot of time into. If they keep soul reaping as is, I pretty much feel the right to demand all titles be account based, and primary professions be changeable. That's the only way in my eyes to prevent the soul reaping change from being an irresponsible change that's disrespective of their players time.--Mooseyfate 16:36, 6 April 2007 (CDT)


 * This is not a fantasy game, balance matters far more than that sort of thing. When this game came out, it was terribly imba and broken, but most things have been fixed by now. Soul reaping nerfs just came late. &mdash; Skuld 16:39, 6 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Well no, it most certainly is a fantasy game. But yes, balance matters more.  However, its irresponsible to players who dedicated hours working on making necro their main character, and having chosen necro as the main because of how their primary attribute functions.  Maybe the change should have came earlier, but by the time 2007 came around, the system for soul reaping had been in place far too long to make the change acceptable. --Mooseyfate 22:55, 10 April 2007 (CDT)

honestly...
i am not even sure i understand the way it works now...does it mean, every 5 seconds you SR from anything that has died within the previous 5 seconds? like, if SR happens at 00:01:00, then between 00:01:00 and 00:01:05 there are 5 deaths, does it then trigger SR 5 times at 00:01:05? or does it only mean deaths that occur at the instant SR triggers? what is the window? Vanessa 00:18, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I believe what it means is that when you receive energy from SR, you must wait 5 seconds before receiving more energy. If something else dies before those 5 seconds expire, you get nothing. --[[Image:SmallMapleLeaf.jpg|19px|User:ImbrilShadowfire]] Imbril Shadowfire  01:00, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * so that means a necro can only SR once per 5 seconds!!!??!? WTF anet!!!  why break the class just to make the PVP people happy??!  (and dont anyone gimme crap about "just bring some e management skills"...the whole POINT of the necro class is that soul reaping IS the e managment!!)  i will be so furious if this change stays permanent!!! >:( Vanessa 01:05, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm pretty sure that everyone doesn't have go and delete their necromancer, just like when everyone wanted to delete their eles when the aeo nerf came out. Just adapt your builds, it's not that hard... Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|19px]] 06:41, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * What, you mean rebuild as if we aren't...NECROMANCERS!? Soul Reaping and necromancers go hand in hand, the only blasted reason to MAKE a character a necro primary was Soul Reaping.  I don't think we'll be deleting our necromancers in a huff, but this update is enough to make me ignore mine forever in the (probably vain) hope that ANet reconsiders breaking an entire class rather then simply dealing with a perceived exploit.  This certainly fixed the PvP problems all right.  Fixed it so well they won't get played at all.  I find myself wondering about the logistics involved with tracking down everyone who abused spirit spamming and punching them in the face.  Thanks a lot jerks! -Gildan Bladeborn:56, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Oh, and this isn't about changing skills because a certain farming build is no longer viable, or finding a more potent build: EVERY build and EVERY skill we select will still be subject to this (except for signets). Necromancers had a broken remnant of a scrapped armor set remain in game for ages, 15k armor that had no artwork variation for ages, and now 2 sweeping and fundamental changes to their attributes.  The only thing that even comes close to how little love necros get would be the Expertise change for rangers. -Gildan Bladeborn 09:05, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * the point is that some of us made necros cuz of the passive ability to control energy...i didnt want to have to use glyphs/signets/ints to manage energy...that is why elems have such a high pool and mesmer have fast cast...


 * trying to play necro in high level zones with lv 28 enemies just became a pointless gesture..necros in high level areas depend on getting SR triggers from multiple foes at a time...i had been hoping Anet would make changes to make DoA more accessible to classes OTHER than Elem, War, and Monk....i guess not...

Another nerf that hurts people who actually play their class to impair those who use it for one utility skill only. Seva 11:06, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

Soul-reap abuse teams were rampant in gvg, spamming every spirit in the game and spiking with SB/RI. Just to clear up any confusion, that is what the balance was intended for. I don't know where the complaints about it being "unplayable and useless" are coming from, i've found it has made minimal difference in PvE... &mdash; Skuld 11:19, 6 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Yes, its still playable, but it is now a lot harder. And like i said earlier on the page, the proper solution to the spirit spamming abuse would of been for spirits to not activate soul reaping. Problem solved, I never did think spirits should activate soul reaping, seriously, how the hell do they have souls. And Skuld, have you ever tried BiPing in city? I think not.
 * Minimal difference in PvE? I would laugh if it wasn't so very very painful how wrong that statement is. -Gildan Bladeborn 13:40, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Put Blood ritual on an E/N, doesn't take a flippin genius to work that out &mdash; Skuld 14:48, 6 April 2007 (CDT)


 * JESUS. I was enjoying the updates to storage and all the other goodies they gave us last night on my assassin, I come and check what else they introduced and I get this...good bye, MAIN CHARACTER. Anybody try MMing since this update? I would like to know specifics. EDIT: Bah, sign in. Spen 14:37, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * They did reduce the cost of minion spells. That helps. If you're having trouble MMing, take SoLS, GoLE, or any number of Inspiration spells. I haven't had much of a problem with it. +13 energy every 5 seconds still does me fine. - [[Image:Candle.jpg|12px]] Krowman (talk • contribs) 16:42, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Yup, i've always ran GoLE since the buff as a MM, but i'm beginning to feel i'm the only one.. &mdash; Skuld 16:46, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * GoLE used to be great for any caster. Have to experiment with my monk for a while, see if it's still viable. I think he employed/abused one of the "few overpowered skill combinations for secondary Elementalists." - [[Image:Candle.jpg|12px]] Krowman (talk • contribs) 16:57, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

Suggested Changes
Moved it down here so Skuld wouldn't have a fit. Spen 10:56, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I agree with this totaly removing spirit from triggering SR would solve the issure that teh nerf was intended for, I can tell you this nerf has not stopped SPIRITWAY but it has had a huge effect on many PvE builds and MMing, expecially in AB.

NOTE: Minoins already only give half energy from SR (the same as spirits) so that should be removed from the list of proposed changes unless you believe that it should be halved again.......which i have to admit would still be better then the current method. 123.3.44.89 00:16, 9 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Actually, I'm pretty sure they give full energy return. Thanks for your input, though. Spen 00:47, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Erm, yeah... Minions have ALWAYS given full energy from SR... that's one of the few reasons MMs were able to cope (in the past, anyway) with spamming 15-25 energy skills... That also is why some MMs used Bone Minions to kill two minions at once and get a SR spike to renew energy (I don't do that, personally, but I've seen it happen) --69.143.6.8 21:24, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
 * It makes sense to me to have spirits return energy. Its a fun pvp and pve tactic.  I get the feeling ANet has too big of a problem with removing tactics that werent originally intended, and keeping ones they thought were clever during game design (touch rangers come to mind as something they thought was clever during development, and have always gone soft on... not that I find touchers difficult to deal with, just citing an example).  Point being, ANet could do a better job balancing things to make the tactic still viable but not overkill.  Make spirit death energy return = one fourth or one sixth the soul reaping stat, or slightly lower the energy return in general.  But honestly I like it as it was.--Mooseyfate 23:03, 10 April 2007 (CDT)

Get over it
Just accept the fact that Soul Reaping was unbalanced and quit all the arguing over this talk page, please. Eles took such a hard blow when AoE was nerfed, it's MUCH worse than this. Until NF came out, warriors always outdamaged eles. The game needs to be balanced so please suck it up and adapt. - Skakid9090 16:44, 6 April 2007 (CDT)


 * No, it wasn't unbalanced, at least until people in PvP started abusing it. Every class, has their own form of energy management so to speak, or a way to get the most out of their energy. Monks have divine favor to improve how much their spells heal for, so they have to heal less, conserving their energy. Every time an enchant ends on a derv, they get energy back from it. A warrior has adrenaline, rangers have expertise, eles have lots of energy, paragons have their leadership, necro's have soul reaping. Have you ever looked at the good necro skills? They all cost 10-15 energy, you run out of energy rather quickly as a necro. The only people who say soul reaping was unbalanced, are PvP'ers, and people who never play necros. In PvP, yes, soul reaping was HIGHLY unbalanced, but that was because of people abusing it. The way it got balanced, completly changed the way soul reaping works, and cripples PvE necro's. I shouldn't have to sit around and wait for energy, because i only got 1 of the souls from those 5 guys that all died at the same time. That 1 soul, lets me cast 1 skill, then i'm sitting around useless.

Death Queen Arabess 18:40, 6 April 2007 (CDT)


 * "at least until people in PvP started abusing it", so it was overpowered, so it needed balancing, end of. &mdash; Skuld 18:41, 6 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Yes, and there is a lot better solution to it. Spirits don't have souls, they shouldn't activate soul reaping. ITS THAT ******* SIMPLE. If spirits didn't activate soul reaping, the problem would be solved. And none of us PvE necro's would be complaining. Death Queen Arabess 18:45, 6 April 2007 (CDT)


 * I agree with you. But it was imba, dont mistake that. &mdash; Skuld 18:46, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Player kills in HA are not nearly as common as spirit deaths, which was the exploit of SR. PvE and AB are the only places with mass amounts of player deaths, and those places have little fame or honor at stake. Once again, a.net over-reacts and nerfs it all to oblivion. --8765 18:55, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Just bring energy-management skills like any other caster class. &mdash; Skuld 19:20, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Honestly, they treat it as if HA and GvG are the only parts of gw 67.162.10.185 19:06, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * They are popular modes of play. If this is PvE vs PvP, PvE does not need balancing in the same way -- the foes are pre-set AI, they do not think, they do not change. In general, PvE players do not care about balance as long as it does not affect them, they are happy to keep the over powered skills. If these setups were used against you, you'd mind, but you're getting a very one-sided view of these skills. &mdash; Skuld 19:12, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

10 Soul reaping. 4 natural pips of regen, and 10 energy every 5 secs is 6 pips of regen. If constant BiP isn't enough for you, re-think energy management, like the rest of the classes. - Skakid9090 19:08, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

Well, Skakid, a quick visit to your page and I can see you don't have a necro. Look, it's still doable, but it is extra-painful for no good reason, when the most efficient and reasonable solution is just reducing or eliminating SR from spirits. NightAngel 19:14, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I often play a necro in PvP, and now I just have to watch my energy bar (you know, like I do with other classes). SoLS, GoLE, you know, energy management. I bring energy management on all my classes, and now necros have to do that too. - Skakid9090 19:23, 6 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Skakid, that WAS our energy management, I don't want to be forced to change my secondary to a certian class, just so i can manage my class's energy.
 * Like monks? mesmers? ect.... Oh and SoLS is soul reaping =) - Skakid9090 19:43, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * You don't seem to get it, and not playing a PvE Necro is probably the reason.
 * SR was overpowered before, no one here is trying to say it wasn't. But, we are saying that playing a PvE has become much much harder, to the point where I see it isn't worth it.  A necro blows a lot of energy in PvE, and has to, because we come up against (although dumb AI) 10+ enemy mobs, most of which are 4+ levels above what any GW player charactor can ever hope to achieve.  Don't forget the 2x damage bosses that might be up to 10 levels higher than us.  Hitting a Searing Flames boss, with 238 AoE damage every 1 second, whack, there goes a chunk of the party, or at least your minion army if using a MM.  Without the SR benefit (even if toned down, much like a Dervish losing an enchantment), you are dead, or are running and hope to rebirth the party.
 * Last time I checked, BiP can not be used on yourself. Expecting every necro in party to use this elite is insane, as much as always expecting to find two necros in every party (so min two necros can carry Blood Ritual, though most do anyway).
 * Using GoLE (which was also nerfed, but not too badly) is also worthless for energy management if you face any kind of corpse using mob. Casting GoLE first before casting your corpse spell means your corpse spell fails, the AI just stole the corpse from you.
 * Using SoLS - not very effective, especiallly since PvE necro players now have very little reason to put any points into Soul Reaping (only has 5 skills), except any points might be left over (just like Warrior builds do with Strength).
 * This is basically the same as changing Energy Storage to only give 1 extra energy for every rank in it. The elementalists would instantly be scrounging to find a way to make any of their builds work.
 * If a monk's Divine Favor healing only kicked in once every 5 seconds, I can guarentee my monk would not use DF unless using a few skills with DF attrib.
 * PvP != PvE, as much as PvE != PvP. Queen Schmuck 19:54, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Erm, 10 energy every 5 secs + 4 pips of regen is 10 pips of regen, a.k.a. having constant BiP. - Skakid9090 19:56, 6 April 2007 (CDT)


 * SoLS is NF...there are no Necro E-Management skills in Factions or Prophecies, thus forcing me to switch classes for E-Management. Nevermind that, even if I had NF or was already in a good position to add skills to my bar, I HAVE 8 skills already. They have removed at least one skill from my builds, which could be an integral skill. It's such a fundamental part of the game, it has been, forever, and there was so many other ways to do this. But instead, they raped us. Spen 20:03, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

Erm, 10 energy every 5 secs + 4 pips of regen is 10 pips of regen, a.k.a. having constant BiP. - Skakid9090 19:56, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

I know this is rude but have you EVER played as a necromancer? Foes tend to die in lage clumps. Ergo instead of getting 40 energy I would get 10. This will leave me high and dry as necromancers have nethier the Ele's energy or their glyphs. And if they use a Mesmer for their secondary this means that they have to split their points. I weep over the fate of necros everywhere as they no longer have a reason to exist. ~Nicholas Petruzzi
 * i agree. what about those that dont have NF?  they have ZERO energy managment, and Anet nerfed GoLE for every class but elem.  this is a terrible (and as noted above, TOTALLY illogical from a fantasy/metaphysical standpoint) nerf that severely hinders the class.  every place i look the majority consensus is that necros were overpowered in PVP cuz of spirit spamming abuse?  isnt the F****** OBSVIOUS decision to just stop SR from triggering when spirits die?!?!? wouldnt this stop the abuse without NEUTERING every PVE necro?!?!? As a necro, I have a hard enough time finding a DoA team already.  Anet just made it impossible.  ATTENTION ANET!!!!!!!  There is MORE to GW than PVP!!!!!!! >:( Vanessa 21:13, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

Righto, then 10 soul reaping, every 10 seconds something dies. Thats 7 pips of regen, and much more realistic. They still have 3 more pips of regen then other classes.-Skakid9090 21:07, 6 April 2007 (CDT)(signing FTL -_-)


 * Ok, I'll play your game. At 7 pips of energy (just over 2 energy a second) it takes 12 seconds to earn the energy to cast bone fiend. Ridiculous waiting time for a cast. QED. Spen 21:33, 6 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Don't forget dangerous. While you are waiting to create a minion your team is bored and your other minions are falling apart before you very eyes. ~Nicholas Petruzzi


 * Not to mention, in that 12 seconds, while you wait on enery to cast your bond fiend, the necro in the enemy mob, has already wasted that corpse by casting a well or something. And you are now again, useless. If you play PvP, leave your bloody ******* opinion out of this, of course you think soul reaping was overpowered, we know that. But, you have never played PvE enough as a Necro, and gone into the elite areas. Make a PvE Necro, and beat Nightfall. Then go to DoA, and join a city grp as BiP. Then wait for your team to start yelling for BiPs, because that mob of guys your sf ele's just took out, didn't refill your empty energy bar, and you are waiting for energy to BiP your monks, while you team dies. Oh, and don't say SoLS, because, you have 1 health (so you don't have to waste even more energy healing yourself, important now more so then ever, thanks to that wonderful sr nerf). If you get in close enough to use it, you are the AI's next target, and die instantly, they like people with high dp and low max health :D. Death Queen Arabess 22:05, 6 April 2007 (CDT)


 * And don't forget that they've paid for those three (probably less because foes quite often die at once or take longer than 10 secs to kill) extra pips of regen with a considerable amount of their attribute points, which usually can't be used for ANYTHING but energy gaining since there are only five skills in Soul Reaping, three being elites and one being extremely situational (SoS). Compare that to, say, an Inspiration mesmer, who can use the points he/she spent to interrupt foes, remove enchantments, deny energy and minimize or heal damage taken, all on top of gaining back a lot of energy in the process. I've always felt this to be the balancing aspect to Soul Reaping: compared to other classes, you have more skill slots to use against your foes as you don't have to bring e-management skills, but you have less attribute points to power the skills you've put into those additional slots. Now that won't work anymore.
 * As for the suggestion to bring energy management skills: which ones? Necros have a grand total of five skills they can use on their own energy bar: Well of Power (elite, high energy cost, requires a corpse), Offering of Blood (elite, huge sacrifice), Mark of the Reaper (elite, Soul Reaping skill), SoLS (also a Soul Reaping skill) and Consume Corpse (random teleportation, requires corpse). I'd rather use my elite slot for different skills once in a while and I have no desire to use 16 death on every build just so I can teleport next to a bunch of angry Onis and get killed, thank you. This nerf wouldn't have been that big a deal if necros had any alternative to Soul Reaping within their own profession. They don't, however, so the complaints are justified. 80.141.154.127 23:22, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

I bet the Necro balancers met and shared a drink with the Pet AI developers. ;) ~Nicholas Petruzzi

So, I'm the only one who always thought: "Crap. Another mass death and 30 energy to hell, 'cause I can only have 45."? Killing even just a small group was enough to regain all lost energy and beyond. Also, I've maintained 8 minions on my Ritualist MM after the update, I don't see how Necros shouldn't be able to do it too. Don't get me wrong, I don't like this nerf either, but you are blowing things out of proportion. It's not like we're not getting any energy at all anymore. A smooth +10 ~ 13 energy every 5 secs for sometimes doing nothing... that's something I'd love to have on my other characters. Jinnai 06:23, 7 April 2007 (CDT)


 * WTF? Of course your Ritualist MM is fine. Hell, they got a nice boost, what with the drop in cost of several minion spells and no nerfs to their MM support stuff (Spawning Power, Boon of Creation, etc). --Shattered Self 06:59, 7 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Please show me an area in the game where there is an endless supply of creatures standing in line in front of a guillotine that kills one of them precisely every five seconds. Oh, and of course there also has to be a special squad of ritualists who teleport dying spirits out of necromancers' range so they don't lose half their energy gain. In a perfect world, your calculation would make sense. In reality, you'll probably get your Soul Reaping bonus every 10-15 seconds unless you stand there with a stopwatch, timing kills. The problem with the "solution" they implemented is that they made a highly situational primary(!) attribute even more situational to a point where it's ridiculous. Depending on the pace at which stuff dies around you, 10 points in Soul Reaping can return more, the same amount of or even less energy than, say, 3 points. When spending precious attribute points, I'd rather have a proportional relationship between points spent and benefits received instead of a random one.
 * I couldn't have phrased that better if I tried. -Gildan Bladeborn 01:43, 8 April 2007 (CDT)

rollback
i'm still hoping anet will roll this back soon. i can't keep a full complement of minions anymore even with consume corpse and the reduced costs. the heroes can't keep more then 1/2 complement. for nearly two years the necromancer hasn't been a problem, and now all of the sudden it's a major issue that requires a total rewrite of the class? so spirit spammers are a problem, remove or further reduce the soul reaping benefits from spirits. don't replace the engine because your speakers are buzzing. --Honorable Sarah 03:03, 7 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Having my first MM experience earlier, since the update, I also noticed that no matter WHAT, I could not break 7 minions, and usually maintained 5. And this was in the southern shiverpeaks. Factions and NF must be hell. Spen 03:05, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
 * take a look at the picture at the top of General minion mastery guide, that's tetracyclide keeping a modest (for the time) 16 minions in line behind him. i used to adverage 16, and once i had over 80 while doing The Great Northern Wall. i can't keep more then 5-6 now, and my heroes aren't even breaking 4. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 03:49, 7 April 2007 (CDT)


 * I remember those days. I have screens of myself with 18+ minions. That's twice we've been nerfed to hell. Spen 10:35, 7 April 2007 (CDT)

OK I'm biased since I run necro heavy teams, but basically the nerf punishes necros around groups that somehow manage to kill large numbers of enemies at once. Whether you kill one thing every 5 seconds or kill 10 in one second, you get the same amount of energy. Means you wander around the easy parts of PvE at a slow and _boring_ pace. I always thought that necros were the class that were happy about deaths and the more deaths per second = more fun and evil laughter, even if they were deaths on your own team and you were next in line ;).

Seriously were a lot of PvP'ers grumbling about Soul Reaping? Or PvE'ers? Are people now just going to say in hindsight that it was overpowered just because Anet "fixed" it. I wouldn't bother speaking up if Anet had a track record of getting balance right, but history shows they don't. They seem to "flail about a lot" - changes seemed rushed. Almost seems like whoever it was in Anet who had a clue about skill balance is no longer in charge and now others are in charge. So what was the problem they were trying to fix? Problems they introduced earlier in NF and Factions? Were they worried about 6-8 searing flames necro-elementalists? Some laughed at me when NF came out and I suggested SF necros + Psychic distract necro + MM with Jagged Bones etc. I suppose the risk of 2 human necros + 6 hero necros in the next edition was too much?

Oh well, they eventually have to destroy GW to make way for GW2, after all GW is not per month subscription. But I don't think I'd bother with GW2 if this is the way they keep "balancing" stuff. 218.111.46.88 05:51, 7 April 2007 (CDT) --(targetdrone)

It's for N/Rt Spirit Spammer + Healers and N/Mo healers. -Silk Weaker 06:37, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
 * The necros breaking gvg and HA needed a balance, but there were probably better solutions. Lord of all tyria 06:39, 7 April 2007 (CDT)

So how does this nerf actually fix things?
Spiritway is still possible right? So why is Anet annoying lots of people just to push a halfbaked solution to "spiritway/spiritspam", especially when there are other ways to fix things? Why should we have to "deal with it" or "get over it" when there's no evidence that Anet is even _fixing_ anything with the changes.

Why not just reduce energy gain from spirits then for the same effect? Even zero energy - it's not like spiritway is such a glorious tactic that's worth preserving for future generations.

I'm glad Anet aren't in the medical industry - their cures would be worse than the disease. They should do the smallest simplest change in the "feature" necessary to address the complaint. Unless there is a big architectural problem but _before_ these changes I didn't hear anybody complaining about the way Soul Reaping worked, only just complaints about "spiritway". Sure Soul Reaping was powerful, but seems only now you hear the complaints in hindsight from "Me-too-ers". Without spiritway, Soul Reaping as it was didn't unbalance PvP much, and even in future scenarios there are better ways of fixing it without changing PvE behavour (and it's not as if Anet thinks things through and tests before doing changes- so they might as well save those fixes for the future till lots of people actually complain about Soul Reaping). 218.111.46.88 09:11, 7 April 2007 (CDT) (targetdrone).

Let me start by saying that I HATE, HATE, HATE this change but, I don't think just eliminating energy gain from spirits is going to fix the N/Mo Healer problem. If energy gain from spirits is eliminated, then teams will instead summon low level bone minions (remember 2 per cast) and then just either let them die or Taste of Death them to death. They could also use jagged bone to keep them alive nearly permanently. I think eliminating energy gain from spirits is a step in the right direction, but I think there is probably also some other change is required (perhaps nerfing Jagged Bones again?) to resolve the issue. In any event, the current SR nerf has to be changed for sure. The biggest issue I have with it is they lowered the cost of minion, but what about all the curses and blood spells? There are more necros that just MMs!24.163.34.174 11:25, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Animate Bone Minions was possible way before spirit way and NF, and nobody managed to abuse that viably. If it's just spirit way and jagged bones that are broken, fix those not SR. SR has been the way it was for a LONG time and nobody complained. Anet's just fixing balancing screw ups with bigger screw ups (look at the quality of the recent update, obvious bugs everywhere do they look like they actually test stuff properly?).
 * You look in the right direction. However, there's a 5 energy cost for Taste of Death, in addition to the low level minion cost, still 15 for minions. So, for 25 energy, you return two SR bonuses, assuming it's at 16, 32 energy. That's a net gain of 7 energy. Less than a single SR death under normal circumstances. EDIT: It also occurred to me, with all the AP in Soul Reaping, and then in DM for a one cast kill with Taste of Death...you have very little AP left for ANYTHING, including healing. Spen 11:09, 7 April 2007 (CDT)


 * I think you misunderstand how the N/Mo healers work. There is one caster (an N/Rt or Rt/X) summoning spirits/minions while there are X other N/Mo's spamming heals. So, the cost of the summons or binding rituals don't matter because the healers aren't the ones incurring the cost. In fact, you kind of prove the point because the "summoner" would actually gain energy as he powered the N/Mo healers.24.163.34.174 11:26, 7 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Fair enough, I can honestly say I do not have any experience with the spirit spamming in PvP, because I am not a PvP player. That is not to say I do not think there was a problem, because, quite obviously, there was. I just think there are better solutions than to cripple PvE necros...and I can say that I am crippled, running mineral springs and Witman's Folly and Talus Chute and Perdition Rock as tests...I could only maintain an average 5 minions. For most MMs, this is effectively a second minion limit nerf. Which is horrible. For most Factions areas and missions, MMs are an essential member of a group, and now we can only run 5 or so minions?


 * Furthermore, as I understand it, the Spirit spammers cast a RIDICULOUS amount of spirits. More than two minions everytime Animate Bone Minions recharged, I'm sure. Even with the minion plan, I don't think it would be nearly as effective as the spirit spammers were. Nerf successful. But instead, instead of removing the SR bonuses from spirits (or even halfing it from minions, too, I'd accept that) A-Net just goes off and nerfs an entire profession. That was a GREAT attribute of the necromancer. One of the most important ones, probably the most important. It's been there for ever, but now it's gone. Spen 13:12, 7 April 2007 (CDT)

....What are you people, brain dead? The infinit energy ability is the ONLY reason (other than runes) that people played as Necros. Take that away and the class become useless. The Necro class has always been a battery with its wells and the ability to cast high powered spell without a thought. ~Nicholas Petruzzi

Well, I have to admit, after doing a quad run on Gate of Anguish last night as a BiP, I really didn't feeel crippled or even really annoyed by the SR nerf. I had a little bit less energy (and I take ranger spirits so I was getting half SR part of the time) but I still managed to do my job fine. I think for general PvE it will be painful to run any kind of necro, including MM - which I find boring but useful (and thus delegated to heroes). However, as to Sarah's comments that her heroes were not breaking the 4 minion mark, I had Olias this morning on Nightfallen Jahai and he was managing a comfortable 7-8 minions with an Order of Undeath build (I still can't believe that was unfavored twice...). I had myself as Promise Nuker with Zhed and Sousuke and we steamrolled through Jahai. So maybe it isn't that bad? At any rate, it is very stupid solution to their problem, completely unappropriate. It should either have been this way all along or never again. Makes no sense to fix spiritway like this NightAngel 12:14, 7 April 2007 (CDT)

For PVE this change is bad for MM necromancers especially, but in PVE MM necromancers were kinda like easy mode, even after the last nerf. I think some interesting builds will come out of this.


 * MMs and SS Nukers. SS Nukers much more so, because everything dies at once. At least with MMs there is SOME spreading of deaths on the timeline. Spen 13:12, 7 April 2007 (CDT)

2 question 1-has anything else ever promoted this much controversy? 2-Who knows how to work a LAME template? ~Nicholas Petruzzi
 * so what your saying is that a team who sacrifices both divine favor and a damage character to spam spirits was beating normal teams to healing because they found a way to generate energy that is almost described the description of the attributes? and that this, which has been not only possible but happening for close to a year and provides energy to both team's necormancer, suddenly requires a knee jerk keboshing of an entire class's primary attribute, rather then a specific fix to the specific use. that's not overkill at all. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 13:41, 7 April 2007 (CDT)

About the energy gain in PvP from only minions... I do not think that minions in PvP would replace Spirits if SR would be changed to give 0 enrgy per spirit. Simple becouse there aren`t too much corpses in PvP gameplay (except AB). And I though that most builds have (or would have after such change) a CC (corpse control) in it, so the minions couldn`t be spawned (corpse would be used way before). And so no energy spirits and full energy minions could work (while this PvP build - no longer) --DragonLord 15:30, 7 April 2007 (CDT)

They really messed up soul reaping...
Hahaha, A-Net has to have revert wars in game XD. Don't worry guys, this will be changed back soon, to limit only spirits. They just like messing with people's minds before changing it :D. Readem (talk *contribs ) 15:02, 7 April 2007 (CDT)

Huh? ~Nick
 * What? More like, how to make people rage quit their game, April 1 was last week...  Queen Schmuck 15:35, 7 April 2007 (CDT)

How ANet should NOT fix this
How ANet could totally muck up the necro class even further (HINT: DO NOT DO THESE!):
 * 1) Move a bunch of unused skills to Soul Reaping attribute, saying "you now have skills that use this attribute now"
 * 2) Move useful skills to Soul Reaping, doing this will not fix Soul Reaping, and will make people waste points in the now useless attribute.
 * 3) Remove energy gain from Soul Reaping completely.
 * 4) Make Soul Reaping only trigger on enemy deaths.
 * 5) Make SoLS return 4x the energy it currently does (still not really useful, very situational, and 50%? Blah, more like 40% for trigger).
 * 6) Make BiP work on yourself (requiring an elite as your own only real form of energy management is useless, nevermind the whole 33% sacrifice)
 * 7) Reduce the cost of all necro spells by 50-66% (if you do that, I will necro with my Rt or Ele, Necro will still be useless).

Anyone else got suggestions for how to NOT fix this situation? Add them to the list.

BTW, I went to Hero Battles last night (observer mode wasn't working), and I got to say, LAME! Don't even go there unless you bring 3 Rt, see my Talk page for details. Queen Schmuck 15:35, 7 April 2007 (CDT)

Just one more comment
Before the SR nerf, wasn't every necro page without energy management passed because people would say "Energy management on a necro? rofl". You're mad because you don't have unlimited energy anymore, and you'll have to accept that =) - Skakid9090 17:32, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Wrong. The main reason I'm mad is because Anet aren't fixing things most of their customers were complaining about. People were complaining about "spirit way" not Soul Reaping. Show me proof that this is a _good_ way to fix the problems and I'll shut up, or that Anet even knows what they are doing. Anet chose to annoy LOTs of people and "half-fix" the "spirit way" problem. Even people who preferred OTHER classes did not complain about necros having "unlimited energy". I bet you don't play a necro much- it's not all about MM - some Necros play Feast of Corruption builds, some SS, some Spoil Victor. I haven't seen evidence of "skakid9090" or Auron of Neon complaining about Soul Reaping being overpowered _before_ this nerf, especially before spirit way. Even Auron posted suggestions on how to _improve_ the "spirit way" build. Now you guys suddenly changed your minds? The complaints were about spirit way AND there were even many viable suggestions on fixing it - show me how many actually called for spirit way to be fixed by changing SR like this - the most popular suggestion was zeroing the energy gain from spirits. 218.111.46.88 04:49, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeh. I think it's quite hysterical. Necromancers had, without a doubt, the single most overpowered primary attribute in Guild Wars. As soon as ANet balanced it (it's still usable, you just can't suck at energy management anymore, like you used to get away with on a necro). It allowed MMs to be mindless at pressing 1-2-3-4 to raise minions, allowed N/Mo and N/Rt healers to powerheal with inefficient spells simply because they had unlimited energy... and now that playing necro includes energy management (something the other casters had dealt with and know how to do), it's "LAME?" Really now... -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 17:37, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
 * The infinit energy ability is the ONLY reason (other than runes) that people played as Necros.
 * So you never played a Necro to get total Melee shutdown from hexes like Faintheartedness and Price of Failure, total caster shutdown from Soul Leech, and total anything shut down with Spoil Victor? Not to mention having 10 minions up and running around is why I made a Necro. Most missions are a breeze with a MM in the party. So... I respectfully disagree with your summation of why people played necros. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 17:51, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
 * That's just it. It is no longer possible to maintain a 10 minion party, as Honorable Sarah said, Heroes have trouble maintaining 4, and I usually keep 5 or 6 steady. Spen 18:01, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Uh... except I was doing it yesterday... for half the missions in Factions... -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 18:07, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I have to agree with this for sure.I played as a necro for their great skills like minions NOT for energy.I'd like to say that anyone saying that we are just acting dumb while not having ever played a necro (in PvE or PvP) is sounding much like someone who always loses than when winning acting like all their losses never happened.Personally I think the solution to the problem was for them to KEEP the solution in PvP, remove the energy gain from spirits AND minions (and yes I have a MM and a good one if I say so myself), or for them to change the ritualist skills seeing as Anet seems determined to remove all playability from the core classes ONLY and keeping dervs, rits, sins, and paras the way they are. (As if they don't have their own unfair abilities-such as the dervishes ability to be nearly indestructable when they use an avatar. (Especially when theres a healer in the party.) If anyone has something against what I say PM my necro Necrotic Ruler. I'll happily get a patition signed by anyone I know who has a necro (if their online :P), or hold a heated discussion in any town.(Trust me bad idea since alot of ppl will back me up.)Before rapping up this long comment I'd like to say that yes I have tried my necro recently and I had a hard time holding 10 minions when in the lowest lvl areas.~Big 16:07, April 7 2007


 * Auron-You must know something I don't then, because I went through the Southern Shiverpeaks last night and was unable to maintain 10 minions the for any amount of time longer than a few minutes. And as for the repeated comments about it being infinite energy, and overpowered e-management, I'd like to remind everybody that it's been that way since the game was released. Most of you started playing after Factions. It's been this way with SR for a LONG TIME. Obviously, it was intended to be this way. Except now, a few kids find a way to abuse it in PvP, and they change the entire system? Nonsense. Spen 19:03, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Are you supposed to be able to maintain a minion army indefinitely? No... A few minutes is fine. I was using Shambling Horror, Bone Fiend and Flesh Golem as my only minion skills. SoLS and SR was enough to keep my energy near full.
 * I think you're ignoring the part where this wasn't a "few kids" who abused it in PvP. It was every other team. You say it's been like this for two years... which prompts comments from people about ANet failing to nerf it for two years. People have been screaming for a nerf to SR for about a year now, but ANet insisted on nerfing the wrong things (jagged bones? ...no, not quite, that didn't solve the problem). -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 19:14, 7 April 2007 (CDT)


 * People wanted a nerf for the spirit spamming/minion SR abusing folks in PvP. That's why they nerfed spirit SR bonuses. How come people have only complained about SR for a year or so, when it's been out since the beginning? Because FACTIONS came out and spirit spamming overpowered in PvP. So, fix SPIRIT SPAMMING, not SR. SR wasn't the problem. Spen 19:17, 7 April 2007 (CDT)

I played as a necro for their great skills Too bad a Mesmer can cast them almost as well if not better with the help of Fast Casting. ~Nick
 * indeed. FINALLY we understand what anet is going to do to "make mesmers in PvE more useful".  Simply cripple necro skills (discord) and now Soul Reaping to the point where using a necro is useless, and using fast casting makes more sense Vanessa 20:48, 7 April 2007 (CDT)

and to Skakid9090...no, i am "mad" because my favorite character does not have fast-casting, so ints for energy management arent as easy. she doesnt have energy storage, therefore does not have 80 energy to work with. she doesnt have expertise, so she cant lower the cost of her skills. she doesnt have adrenaline based skills. nor does she regain energy if enchants are removed, or have an attribute like divine favor that boosts her skill power so she has to use skills less often. umm...are you getting my point? Vanessa 20:56, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
 * But you have one that gives you a generous 10 or so energy every 5 seconds. Energy storage is NOT energy management, it simply gives you more of it to work with. Expertise applies only to non spells.. divine favor? try dumb wammos that need constant heal spams. adren based skills? warriors dont have spells like you do, nor the energy to cast them. I am reading your side of the story and like I said before, every class except necros up to this point had to manage energy. manage your energy okay? you cant spam unlimited spells anymore accept it. - Skakid9090  21:40, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
 * again, i think you are missing the point, or just denying the truth of it. energy storage/expertise/divine favor/adrenaline/mysticism/fast casting ALL make skill use easier and more manageable.  you simply can NOT argue this point. energy storage creates a higher pool, and therefore allows for more skills per encounter (not to mention a butt-load of energy manage skills).  how many spells do rangers have?  so the fact that expertise doesnt affect skills is a weak argument.  warriors have higher dps, and dont need spells...hell, even bonetti's is adrenaline based e manage; again, not a valid argument.  wammos forcing monks to spam heals?  find better warriors to play with. in pve, i almost ALWAYS had SoLS in my builds even BEFORE this nerf.  just cuz PVP spiritway made energy infinite, that doesnt mean that was the case with ANY pve build.  Vanessa 23:12, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Skakid9090, I suggest you scroll up a bit and read the part where THINGS DON'T DIE EVERY 5 SECONDS. There is no magical guillotine killing things at regular 5 second intervals, so every half-assed calculation you make about what that works out to in regeneration numbers is a joke. -Gildan Bladeborn 02:14, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Waste of time, I'm starting to think he's just a griefer who's never seriously played a necro before (just look at his userpage), so I don't think he even cares to understand how the nerf works. 218.111.46.88 04:55, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Yep, I wouldn't bother arguing anymore. There have been lots of good arguments throughout this talk page, and Skakid9090 just ignored most of them. You can't argue with ignorance. 80.141.150.101 09:31, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Really... just learn how to manage energy like *every other class in the game*. It's not that hard... really. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 09:39, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I know it's been said before, but here goes again: necros have a grand total of two non-elite energy management skills, one of them being NF-only (SoLS) and the other one with a nasty teleport side effect that could get you killed in many situations, plus its dependent on corpses (CC). Are you suggesting that nearly every necro should put points into two attribute lines (one from a secondary class) for e-management alone? If not, then, instead of boasting your "ZOMG LERN TO MNAAGE ENARGY NOOBS!!!!!!" attitude, provide us with some suggestions how to ACTUALLY DO IT. Thank you. 80.141.174.85 11:51, 8 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Auron, that really is all fine and dandy. And we'll do that, too. But what of Soul Reaping? It is now a complete waste of attribute points. Anybody who is serious about playing a necro now uses other means of E-management...and since there aren't many skills in the SR Attribute (and none at all for Prophecies), there's absolutely no reason to use it. A PRIMARY ATTRIBUTE, useless. Even Strength has it's strengths. Spen 10:18, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
 * "ZOMG LERN TO MNAAGE ENARGY NOOBS!!!!!!"...Nobody said that. It's not useless, it gives you energy with a decent inveestment in your primary (most classes do this). It might not be 30 energy per second anymore, but if you can kill 1 thing every 10 seconds it gives you 7 pips of regen with 10 in soul reaping (a decent investment). If you can't kill 1 thing every 10 seconds, rethink your group structure and bring more damage. Many rit builds do not use spawning power, because every rit build does not have to use spirits. Strength is used for skills, yes. BUT, warriors can do fine without those skills. Expertise is key on most rangers, but it still does give them a LIMIT to how much energy they can spend. Divine favor gives a bonus to healing (not energy management) and how often do you see your average PUG monk healing once every 5 seconds? They don't because your average team needs full healing so they have to spam their skills on each member. Mesmers have fast casting.... generally not needed. Elementalists have energy storage simply to extend their energy pool to cast higher energ spells. It is, in no way, energy management, because after fights they have to regen (unless use elites for energy management). Paragons get leadership, which is hardly unlimited energy and only fits their purpose of using shouts. Dervishes get Mysticism, which, with a decent investment, gives them enough energy to re-use their enchants when they end. Assassins get critical strikes, gives them a nice energy boost while attacking, which they need to support their high-energy combos. Now necros... necros have Soul Reaping. With a decent investment (10), they get a nice energy bonus every 10 seconds (+ their natural regen, equal to that of other classes) which helps support their mostly long recharge skills. If your energy bar is loaded with 10-15 energy spells and you have nothing to cast in between, don't blame your primary, blame your lack of common sense. I would LOVE to go on my ranger, use Arcane echo/echo/concussion shot/ echo / conconcussion shot/ spam on every enemy, but energy limitations make it so i cannot do that. Boon prots? Incredible healing, but you needed to use a secondary class with elite and non-elite energy management to feed it. Thus, MMs, most possible the strongest general PvE class, should have to also bring energy management to feed their massive armies. - Skakid9090 16:19, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
 * If there were any usable non-elite energy management skills for necros aside from SoLS, there'd be no problem with that. But there aren't, a fact which has been pointed out several times by several different people now. So stop talking about bringing skills that aren't there. Unless you want OoB and MotR to be the only viable elite skill choices for most necro builds, your vague advice to "bring energy management" remains pointless. And since I know you're inevitably going to bring up that point, let me counter it in advance: yes, I know there are secondary professions. No, I don't want to have to put points into two different attribute lines (SR + secondary attribute) just for energy management. No, I don't want mesmer or elementalist to be the only viable secondary profession choices for primary necros. I think you get my point here. Another thing you're not taking into consideration is that PvE necro doesn't automatically mean MM. There are (or rather were) so many great possible PvE necro builds that I find to be far more fun than the standard MM crap. Since many of those builds require spell spamming of some sort to do reasonable damage/degen/whatever, the nerf hurt those builds far more than most MM builds. Without a somewhat reliable energy gain from Soul Reaping, many builds are practically dead, and no amount of SoLS/CC/whatever will change that. Which brings me to my main beef with the nerf: I don't so much mind getting less energy out of Soul Reaping than before. However, I do mind getting random amounts of energy out of it. Soul Reaping in its current form is totally unreliable. A necro with 3 points in Soul Reaping killing four foes in 20 seconds can get 12 points of energy out of them if his/her party kills one foe precisely every 5 seconds. A necro with 10 points in Soul Reaping killing four foes in 20 seconds might only get 10 energy out of them if they drop dead all at once. So the pace at which stuff around you dies is potentially more important to your energy management than the amount of attribute points assigned to Soul Reaping. Sadly this isn't mere randomness, which would be ridiculous enough, it's actually a penalty for time-efficient teams, which is just inacceptable. Tell me one single attribute besides Soul Reaping with such a "feature". 80.141.146.231 23:17, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Well, energy management does not have to be a skill. It is the mentality to not bring spells that you will not have enough energy to fuel. Necromancers have been, since post-AoE nerf, the most damaging PvE class because they could pack all these high energy good damage spells. I do see all of your grudge with the nerf, but like I said before... "Energy management on a necro? rofl". That alone should be enough to show how unfair their primary attribute was. - Skakid9090 00:21, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Actually, damage on necro spells isn't all that great. Base damage on most elementalist skills, for example, by far succeeds that on necro skills (not counting SS of course, that skill is without a doubt overpowered in PvE). The main selling point of necro spells isn't the great damage, but the armour-ignoring aspect, which means you will kill everything equally slowly, but reliably so, whereas eles (or Channeling ritualists for that matter) will have to put some more thought in their target choices to maximize damage output, but also have an overall higher damage potential. The necros' lower base damage is of course needed for PvP so necros don't just spike everything to pieces without any effort (it's still doable with some effort, however). In PvE though, where enemy healers tend to suck royally unless you give them A LOT of time between hits, all it boils down to is time efficiency, or damage per time. Since a necro's damage per cast isn't incredibly high, he/she will have to spam skills on recharge to make up for it. And since there isn't a great array of good spammable 5 energy skills without great drawbacks (the only ones I can think of are Blood of the Agressor and, to a lesser extent, Dark Pact if you bring VG to counter the sacrifice), they will have to resort to 10 and 15 energy spells quite often. So yes, necros have to burn lots of energy in a short time to be on par with other damage dealers. Just waiting longer between casts isn't an option, which is why they need good and most of all reliable energy management. As I've pointed out before, my main problem with the nerf isn't the loss in raw energy per time, but the fact that x deaths != x times energy because the upper limit is based on some stupid time interval. I wouldn't mind having the energy gain reduced to 1en/2SR, for example, but I do mind the penalty for killing foes fast (i.e. for having an efficient team build), since that's what the nerf effectively incurs.
 * excellent points by previous anon....to skakid9090: the point has been made somewhere in this thread that on your user page you dont have a necro listed.  for all your theorizing and postulating, have you ever in fact played a necro in pve?  cuz from your discussion points, it seems obvious to me that you have not. is your position on this issue based SOLELY on the fact that you once saw someone say "energy managment on a necro? rofl" (as you have quoted more than once)?  you are championing this nerf based on what actual game experience?Vanessa 01:29, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I quote from an earlier post by monseigneur Skakid9090: "I often play a necro in PvP, and now I just have to watch my energy bar (you know, like I do with other classes)." PvP and PvE are entirely different animals, and as the Arena Net team itself has pointed out (State of the game article, before the rise of Spirit Spamming) necromancers have a highly limited primary attribute that's only dubiously useful in PvP (when considering actual player deaths, not the infinite spirit quasi-exploit).  Unless you were spirit spamming, you always have to watch your energy bar in PvP, which is one of the reasons necros weren't popular for quite a while.  Their primary attribute doesn't speed up casting, or give them more energy to work with, it doesn't do anything at all until something dies (and things don't die all that fast in a well matched GvG or HA battle).
 * So you've played a necromancer in PvP? Put simply: You don't have the requisite experience to comment on this as anything but an outside observer saying "Ha ha, sucks to be you!", and that's not terribly constructive.  This change doesn't even stop the supposed infinite energy exploit, it only slows it's pace down a bit, while rendering point investment in Soul Reaping random in what you get back.  It punishes us for efficiency in PvE while having almost no impact at all on PvP (since as I've noted: Things don't die very fast/often).  It's an overreaction that fixes nothing, breaks everything, and serves only to make long time necromancers quite angry.  There is no possible reason to view this change as well implemented and useful.  Except of course, a perverse pleasure taken from the suffering of others: "You're mad because you don't have unlimited energy anymore, and you'll have to accept that =)".  I see no reason to derive any other motivation for your posts.  Go roll up a roleplaying necromancer and then tell me how wonderful Soul Reaping is now, or leave the topic to those who play them in their entirety. -Gildan Bladeborn 12:20, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
 * While I agree with you on the points you made about Soul Reaping, I must ask you to please stop polluting this discussion with ad hominem attacks that don't help anybody. The thing in question here is not Skakid9090's experience in PvE necroing or his alleged "perverse pleasure taken from the suffering of others", but the validity of arguments for and against the nerf to Soul Reaping, and that doesn't depend on the person who's bringing them up. Try to disprove statements by arguing (and I believe the anti-nerf crowd has the better arguments in this case, so it shouldn't be so hard) instead of calling people noobs. This also increases the chances that a dev who accidentally stumbles upon this discussion will read and consider your arguments because he/she won't have to read through a 24-page flame fest to get through to them. Thanks. 80.141.154.249 12:43, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
 * For the record, that was an excellent argument in itself. Those without experience on a subject cannot POSSIBLY comment (with any actual knowledge). So, why else would he? To play devil's advocate, or to take pleasure in making others angry. He has NO EXPERIENCE. The nerf itself doesn't affect him at all, considering it hit PvE the hardest, and he doesn't have a PvE Necro. So...he cannot contribute with any actual observations. It's that simple. Spen 14:17, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I, on the other hand, have had a PvE necro for quite awhile, and speak from experience. Playing Necro in PvP is *a shitload harder* than it is in PvE, for a number of reasons. In most (80%+) areas of PvE, just having henchies attack one target is enough to kill it in 5 seconds; then you cast your minion spell. Hard? No.
 * Now, MMs have generally had a bitch of a time keeping 10 minions alive for more than a minute without kills/new corpses. I've succeeded in keeping 10 alive throughout several missions; these were Factions and Nightfall missions, which are notorious for being packed full of monsters. It is hard to keep minions alive during a long trek across an instance, but as long as you summon a golem every time the old one bites the dust, you'll be fine.
 * All in all, the Soul Reaping attribute is still one of the most powerful primaries in the game. It now requires experience managing energy; but who cares? I've been doing that since I started this game (on an elementalist, then a monk). Like Skakid said, energy management is not merely skills you spam every time they recharge that give you energy; it's a mindset. If you hadn't already realized that, you've probably been having problems with SR in PvE. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 16:10, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
 * The same old PvE = MM fallacy there. And yes, of course SR is still decent, no one doubts that, but most of its decency doesn't come from attribute point investment now, but from the rather random time inbetween enemy deaths, which is ridiculously unreliable. Somehow no one who doesn't agree on it anyway seems to acknowledge that point. 80.141.154.249 17:27, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Isn't a fallacy. I use MM in PvE because it is more effective than running a half-assed bloodspike or well whore, and because I never do it in PvP. Plus... if you aren't an MM, you have an easier job anyway. Your energy just regens between battles, you don't have to worry about keeping 10 minions alive. Throwing hexes on during battle and walking around the rest of the time is an easy role to play, compared to spamming BotM (or GoR+veratas sac). -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 17:33, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I didn't doubt that MM is your favourite PvE necro role. I only asked you to acknowledge that it isn't the only possible one, and the primary attribute in question wasn't designed for the sole purpose of helping fulfill that role. Oh, and I don't know about you, but when I run a PvE hex build, I usually bring some direct damage and/or support skills to cast between the hexes instead of standing around doing nothing 3/4 of the time and then wondering why my build isn't efficient enough. I used to, that is, because now this time will instead be going towards cycling through foes in search for a <50% health bar to spam SoLS on. Unless I'm in a crappy team that takes a minute to kill each foe so I get rewarded for their crappiness with more energy compared to an efficient team that frequently kills several foes at once or in quick succession. Yay. (Notice how I've elegantly tried to make you notice the (in my opinion) very strong point that the new Soul Reaping penalizes time-efficient teams, a point which you and others have been adamantly ignoring the last dozen times it's been brought up?) 80.141.154.249 20:05, 9 April 2007 (CDT)

I've been adamantly ignoring it? No. It just hasn't been worth responding to. Sure, it's now random. Sure, it sucks because even full-hench teams can take things down faster than once-every-5-seconds, but it's a minor irritation; nothing to lose sleep over. I've already stated that this wasn't the best way to nerf it, but I'm not going to spend time thinking of ways this is inferior to other nerf possibilities or to how it was before. I don't care enough to :P -Auron  20:16, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
 * My bad. It seemed to me you were ignoring that point because it disproved your little theory that everyone who doesn't like the nerf is just pissed because they don't get their allegedly endless energy supply anymore. Furthermore, I disagree with you about the issue being just a "minor irritation" or not "worth responding to" since, in my humble opinion, a primary attribute should be something that's possible to base a build on. If Soul Reaping just yielded less energy per death, but still triggered on every death, it would fulfill that requirement. You'd see a bunch of foes and know how much energy you'd get, i.e. you could plan ahead. The Soul Reaping that we now have is totally random. You see a bunch of foes and have no clue how much energy you can safely use up in that fight without the possibility of totally screwing up your supply for the next 20+ seconds, i.e you cannot plan anything in advance. SR has been reduced to a petty little bonus every once in a while that you can't remotely rely on. I don't think a primary attribute should be that limited. In fact, don't think ANY energy management choice should be that limited. If you don't care enough to consider that point anyway, then do us a favour and stop posting about it, even though it might be fun to play the LALALA I DON'T CARE card as soon as you run out of witty responses to other people's arguments.


 * FoC and SS are very high damage necro skills =) (and MM is under-powered in PvE? 0_o). You cannot just disclude skills because they are "over-powered"... that's just silly. - <font color="Black">Skakid9090 13:56, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
 * And you can't just point at one or two powerful elites and act as if they were representative for all skills in a profession. What you are doing is the same as saying mesmers are great overall AoE damage dealers because they have Energy Surge, or ritualists are the kings of knockdown because they have Wanderlust. Take, for instance, a look at the shadow damage/life stealing Blood Magic skills that are there. The numbers aren't quite as impressive as you'd like them to be. Or look at the cold damage skills in Death Magic and seriously tell me most of them aren't ridiculously underpowered. It's not the MM who is hurt most by this nerf, it's the players who think outside the "MM or SS?" box that suffer from it. You can now continue repeating the ZOMG LOOK AT THE MM argument a few more times and completely ignoring the points that have been made so far, if that makes you happy. Or you could acknowledge that the more obvious solution would be to remove energy gain from spirits and minions as myriads of people have pointed out because
 * a) it kills the Spiritway exploit, which was the SOLE purpose of this nerf (read up on guru)
 * b) it doesn't penalize time efficient killing in PvE
 * c) it won't encourage even more recycling of the same three builds (including MMs) simply because all the alternatives for good sustained damage won't reliably gain energy anymore with the current "solution".
 * Lets clear things up abit Soul Reaping needed a nerf, SPIRITWAY could be to damn good but I really think the current "fix" was completly wrong it didnt fix SPIRTWAY at all infact it hasnt effected PvP in general that much squeezing Sols into your build fixes the PvP side of this nerf (in most cases, unless your stupid with your skills) quite well and spirtway teams just co-ordinate their spirits better to get SR bonus only ever 5seconds. As people have stated this PvP positioned nerf hasnt fixed what they wanted it to and has preaty much knee capped PvE necro's, now once again on the MM side of things Sols preaty much fixes the problem couples with playing abit smarter, no props PvE MM's back up and running to a point where they are still damn good but now here is the but MM actaully takes less energy to run then most other PvE necro builds MM supplies a much more constant death rate meaning the 5second thing effects it the least. Other popular builds such as BiP, FoC, Orders and SS have taken a huge hit as the teams these are run in kill a large amount of enemies in one go, think about thif if your in a B/P team on a BiP or Orders necro, everything dieing at once is going to leave you high and dry without energy and if u ask the team to wait for your energy or try to kill thing in smaller groups what do u think they are goign to say, "we could have done this faster with an extra B/P instead of the necro". Also the coment about necro's being able to deal out alot of AoE damage is abit off, necro's got hit by the AoE nerf to you know things spread from our skills aswell and poutn for pount even our biggest Aoe's like SS and FoC still deal alot less damage then an Ele that is smart with their spells. Well their is my rant anyways so in conclusion, needed a nerf but they did it the wrong way barly effecting what they where aming for and hitting what they didnt want to effect hard, the nerf on the PvP/MM side of things is still quite easily managble with abit more thinking into skill usage and e-managment but in PvE nomatter how good you are with these things you can end up being a paperwieght in PvE teams depending on how things die, PS I play PvE and PVP necro with many different builds and i blieve that most people are raising valid points and T believe Anet wont be able to leave this as it is.
 * Please man, as a hardcore elementalist, I know elite disscrimination. Scenerio: I join a group, they ask what I am, I say Echo Sandstorm (extremely effective PvE AoE). Them: Is sandstorm in fire? Me: No, it's in earth. Them: *kick*. EVERY class has underpowered skills. Why the hell don't you see water eles running rapid in PvE? Air eles? Earth eles? Hammer wars? MESMERS?! Seriously, PvE metagame (sounds funny but it exists) is also dominated by certain elite skills, and your arguement of dont just take those 3 types of playing should also be relavent to other classes. - <font color="Black">Skakid9090 22:30, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Except none of those other classes just had their primary attribute crippled recently, so why even bring them up? I don't see how the prejudice of PUGs against effective but under represented non-necromancers has anything to do with this topic, other then to point out people you don't know can be jerks (And since when is that news?). Tis one of the reasons I don't usually involve myself with PUGs, but again: What does that have to do with anything? -Gildan Bladeborn 01:16, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Let's be honest here, Gildan: you can't cripple an eles primary attribute any further since it's total crap anyway. Soul Reaping in its current form is still far better than Energy Storage ever was or could ever hope to be. However, I don't think that this means necros are too powerful and seriously need a nerf, but rather that eles could use a serious buff. Instead of nerfing everything to the ground in a neverending spiral of doom until everyone's equally useless, it might be a better option to buff stuff that's currently weak to discourage endless recycling of the same three builds because they're among the only ones left that still work reasonably well. Yes, Skakid9090, you're completely right: the argument is the same for other professions. But just nerfing the necro to pieces won't solve that problem for them.
 * I'd like to point out a bit more clearly that this is a page about the necromancer's primary attribute, so while discussions of it's impact on general necromancer gameplay make sense, branching off onto the topic of elementalists does not. Don't construe this as me agreeing/disagreeing with any points you're making since I have no first hand knowledge of the profession (I ignore my elementalist).  I'm just pointing out the discussion page for Energy Storage is probably a better place to make them. -Gildan Bladeborn 00:09, 11 April 2007 (CDT)

Actual post-nerf MM performance reports
This is a data-collection section. Please reduce opinions and armchair-analysis to a minimal. Please exclude all rants and rebuffs to rants.

Simply state your experience running the nerfed MM by specifying what area/mission you were doing, whether it's hero or player doing the MM, and some info about the MM build.


 * For comparison, please also specify what it was like before the nerf. --Heurist 02:41, 8 April 2007 (CDT)

Vabbi (general explorable areas)
Except for areas with heavy Elementals (no corpse), my MM hero keeps 7~9 minions up most of the time. Kournan scribes tend suddenly drop the number by quite a bit though, if I don't keep an eye on their Meteor. Long periods of backtracking and picking up loot also tend to drop the number of minions a bit. MM skills: Bone Fiend, Bone Horror, Blood of Master, Verata's Sacrifice, Verata's Aura, Heal Area, Martyr, Rebirth. -PanSola 21:54, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I keep a steady 7-8, get to 10 every once in awhile (but can't keep them all up). Flesh Golem, Fiend, Shambling Horror and BotM are the MM skills I use. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 17:46, 9 April 2007 (CDT)

Dzagonur Bastion
I was doing the Dzagonur Bastion using two MM heroes (Master of Whispers is using Blood equipment but has attributes and skills set for MM), Tahkora on a BoonProt build, and the four classic Ascalon henchies (Eve doesn't count as classic, though she's an Ascalon). The MM that follows me around consistently have 7~8 minions (sometimes peak at 9), except when the deaths gets stalled too much from trying to kill certain bosses. The second MM I station with the order of whispers varies a lot, sometimes getting up to 5, sometimes dropping to 2, I think party because enemy Priests are making things hard to kill, and the Whispers NPC tend to run outside bombardment range to kill enemies, which is also too far from where I told my second MM to guard. So when the MM following me reach 9 minions (and the fighting isn't too intense on my side), I'd rotate him off to do guard duty, and get the MM on guard duty to come join me for more minion raising.

Both MMs use only Bone Fiends and Bone Horror for minion skills, plus Taste of Death for some self-healing (probably a bad idea?), and carried Leech Signet for energy management (though I don't think either of them ever used it). No elites on either MM (haven't capped either Flesh Golem nor Jagged Bones). -PanSola 21:42, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Did you bring the blood henchman? HE/she brings BR, which may interfere with the test - <font color="Black">Skakid9090 16:50, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
 * No blood. The "four classic Ascalon henchies" are Devona, Cynn, Aiden, and Mhenlo. -PanSola 23:43, 9 April 2007 (CDT)

Mineral Springs, Frozen Forest, other Southern Shiverpeak areas, Perdition Rock
With 7 hench, Bone Fiends, Flesh Golem, and the standard MM set up (including Dark Bond).

Immediately, from the start, I noticed that enemy AI towards necromancers seems to have changed. Normally, I do not have trouble taking damage from mobs, but it seemed every single mob I aggro'd immediately went after me, past all the other casters (mesmers, monks, and elementalists). Not sure if this is an unnannounced update, but it was really hindering my abilities.

The second thing I noticed was, of course, the SR problem. Most of the bad guys died in a fairly short time period, and I could usually only walk away from each mob with 3 minions (one Flesh Golem). Those three would die with the next mob, with which I would raise 3 minions, etc. It was VERY HARD to gain momentum, which is the basis of an MM.

The third thing I noticed was that the minion AI (at least for fiends) seems to have been changed. Previous to the update, they would almost ALWAYS (75% of the time, at least) target one creature and spike it before moving onto the next. Today, I noticed the fiends switching targets frequently, and the Golem running around like a maniac. This obviously hurt the cause, and resulted in slower killings and more minion deaths.

When I COULD get a good 7-10 minion group, which took a while usually, but did happen occasionally, I could keep it going. Once you GET there, the MM is still an MM. The problem is getting there. Spen 23:22, 7 April 2007 (CDT)


 * It might be worthwhile to collect data on what happens if you use a hero to aggro the mobs while having yourself (as the MM) and the other henchies stay a bit back, to better analyze aggro pattern. -PanSola 00:45, 8 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Unfortunately, no NF until April 22nd-ish. If anybody else is willing, it'd be a great help. Spen 00:50, 8 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Confirmation on Flesh Golem running in circles (tested with 4 and 8 in party). If there are 3 targets all roughly same distance to you, he keeps running between them, every once in awhile hitting one, then moving to the next one.  In my testing, I quit using him because of this.  See my talk page for details.  Queen Schmuck 14:12, 8 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Thanks for that. Any work with the fiends? It may be harder to test than the golem, since to test if they still spike one opponent before some of them switch targets, you'd need a decent amount. Spen 16:48, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah, fiends work great, actually best minion from what I saw. No meat shield, but very good for quickly attacking and staying on that target until dead.  Melee minions seemed to recheck for target if what they were flailing at made any movement, as in, the minion was just sit there a look at it for 3 seconds or so, then acquire target again.  Not sure when this changed (recently been busy getting W and D through NF), but I know for sure this isn't how it used to be.  I'd also be completely cool with a zero energy from spirits and 1/2 energy from minions change.  The minion bonus is best when refreshing your oldest minions (when at max, new minion kills oldest, allowing energy for another minion).  This is usually seen at the very beginning of battle, or after it is done and you have a pile of corpses to play with.  Queen Schmuck 17:34, 8 April 2007 (CDT)

Perdition Rock with Horrors instead of Fiends
The above results were taken when I used Fiends and Flesh Golem. I figured, if anything, the positive feedback I'd read here was from people who used the less energy costly minion spells...and I was right. It was very easy to maintain a 6-10 minion army, with one Flesh Golem. The problem is, these aren't fiends, and are thus less effective. Also notable is the AI (mentioned above) causes the horrors and Golem to frequently switch targets, leading to travel times and less damage overall.

I STILL noticed an increased rate of aggroing on me...it seemed every single mob would just run right for me. And, perhaps even more disturbing, when I tried to kite they would STICK LIKE HELL. I mean, they would not get off me. I ran past all the other casters, hid behind rocks, you name it, they would keep following me. This is definitely a problem, and I hope it's a bug.

Final synopsis: Fiends nerfed big time. 25 energy is too much for the nerfed SR to cover for...but most other minions should still be pretty effective for their energy. I'm glad to see they also lowered the energy cost to a few other Necro spells...still...I'd rather just use the suggestions in the template above. Spen 21:14, 10 April 2007 (CDT)

Gate of Anguish
So far the effects have been minimal. I have done a quad run and a dual gloom+foundry run, among others, with my LB 7 Necro, and have felt almost no difference. It does change "mindless spamming" a bit, but I can still keep almost everyone bipped almost all the time, even being hurt twice by the nerf - one because things die in clumps (MS+damage spikes), two because I use 4 spirits on my bar and thus get half energy gain at times. Even under the City of Torcqua environmental effect AND with Quickening Zehpyr up (which I carry on my bar, and so do Margonites) it was still doable, you just have to be creative. For instance, if you drop to zero energy and die to Famine, have your HB restore life on you. Voilá, instant 40+ energy to keep on bipping. Just remember to tell the overzealous Emos not to sac chant you up. :) NightAngel 10:54, 8 April 2007 (CDT)

Domain of Secrets
Seeing minor effects so far. I typically farm LB with a primary SS N/Rt with both Master and Olias set up as N/Mo Minion bombers, both with Verata's Sac rather than BotM for minion support. Both are able to keep up max minions pretty much all the time. I do notice that their energy is not nearly as maxed out as before (and neither is mine), but still workable. I have more E issues than the heroes, but still very workable. Its just not mindless spamming of spells for me any longer. I have noticed one effect I haven't seen mentioned in any discussions. The 5 second timer for deaths from creatures and minions doesn't seem to affect the SR energy gain from spirits. A spirit death immediately after a minion death will result both energy gains. Some testing is necessary to figure out how exactly this works right now. iglam 04:56, 10 April 2007 (PDT)

Vizunah Square
I okayed my ritualist minion killer, brought Olias as an OoU MM, and the other team had a flesh golem MM. As usual Boon of Creation kept my minion supply up and well. Olias held an army of 7-8 most of the time, with spikes of as low as 4 and as high as 10. He used BoTM quite often, around every 4 seconds. The MM on the other team had an army of 8 minions by my eye (when I asked him how many minions he was averaging he told me to "STFU nub"). - <font color="Black">Skakid9090 14:02, 9 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Ah yes, it's always nice to see civilized and mature people capable of behaving as actual human beings, isn't it? I still bugs me to no end that they nerfed a primary attribute because of an exploit that should be fixed directly. Either it was overpowered since they made the game, and they should have the balls to admit that, or it wasn't, and you just need to reduce spirit SR income to 1/4 or zero. NightAngel 15:45, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Vizunah Square is not typical PvE.
 * As you stated, this is usually run with 2 MM, as there are just that many enemies (and corpses) constantly popping up. With 15-30 enemies around you, it is very likely that there is a death right at every 5 second interval.  Having less then 10 minions (level 16 Death) in this area, once combat begins, only happens when you get a chain effect of death nova/afflicted explosion, which then usually triggers even more death nova/afflicted explosion chains.  Even with all the simultaneous deaths, there are enough enemies still around to keep a death happening at every 5 second interval (well many more than 1 death, but I can easily see a death every second in such mobs, which would trigger SR in currently most efficient possible way).  I have not played Vizunah Square with my necro since the "SR fix", but I used to be able to easily spam BotM/Heal Area combos while waiting for minion spells to recharge (basically, casting every second while in battle).  Yes, that went through a huge amount of energy, because it was a huge amount of creatures being killed.  Also note that Channeling on any spell caster would give them nearly limitless energy while in this very same situation, so SR, as the benefit of being a primary Necromancer, has no advantage here other than not having to cast an enchantment for energy (in fact, Channeling just became WAY more effective than SR because of nerf to SR).  To make this balanced, Channeling would only:
 * give energy once every 5 seconds (but not within 5 second window, as the 5 second delay counter starts when energy gained (spell cast), so if you gained energy, then waited 9 seconds to cast next spell, you wouldn't get 3rd energy gain until at minimum 14 seconds)
 * energy gain maxed at your Inspiration Magic level
 * chance of your energy gain be 1/2 max
 * Channeling would then be absolutely ridiculous (but balanced with nerfed SR).
 * In normal PvE, there are not 15-30 enemies attacking at once (10 yeah, but if there are that many over 15, you are dead; check out Ice Dome in Tyria with terrible aggro control, or even worse, the Desolation with large roaming mobs of Awakened - aggro 2 mobs at same time, you die).
 * I applaud you for at least checking this out with a nerco hero. Now check a less populated area, as you'll see a noticeable difference in efficiency.  Queen Schmuck 16:44, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Well, I picked Vizunah because of the abundance of courpses and i wanted to see what things were like when there are 28 (10+10+my 8) minions are kept up constantly. Next I'll test in... DoA xD. Also, channeling gives energy for foes in the area, and a caster being in the area isn't too safe. - <font color="Black">Skakid9090  22:22, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
 * It's easy to build up an army when you're in the same area with tons of corpses for a long time. It's then just a matter of waiting for your energy, if need be. Plus, with the number of deaths...honestly, you'll get nothing that convenient in a different PvE setting. Vizunah is pretty much heaven for an MM, that's why you usually get 2 or 3 in there at a time. Spen 22:28, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Please, This is a data-collection section. Please reduce opinions and armchair-analysis to a minimal. Please exclude all rants and rebuffs to rants. - <font color="Black">Skakid9090 23:37, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
 * It is not armchair analysis, sorry, I've been there and played an MM in Vizunah Square and out of it. Armchair analysis is when you discuss something you haven't done. *Looks at lack of PvE Necromancer* Spen 23:49, 9 April 2007 (CDT)

From Jade Sea, through to Torment
My main is a 3-campaign, everything done, 291-elite, multi-title etc etc necro, pure PvE, and I've used numerous builds, from conventional through experimental to downright odd, so I had no lack of background for testing this change. My immediate observation is one that (oddly) nobody else has made here yet:

Foe corpses now expire before we can use them, all the time!

This change has *dramatically* slowed the pace of the necro game. That pace used to be in step with normal rates of foe death, and rarely would a team have to wait for the necro to make his or her minions before moving on. Now in contrast, everything stops, while the necro painfully tries to gain the energy to use up corpses before they expire --- and often fails!

Corpse expiry is a black-and-white symptom, it can't be misinterpreted: any corpses that expire represent a loss of necro capability. In other words, the MM necro has been extremely badly affected by this change. Also worth noting is that this happened repeatedly even in Torment, where foes certainly don't fall very rapidly. Nevertheless, the necro fails to keep up, and corpses expire.

Just briefly, also observed as an effect of SR reduction: as per the latest patch notes, Icy Veins has been nerfed too, by doubling its energy cost to 10. This was the only decent nuke available to us, and properly powerful for an elite. The increase in its cost coupled with the decrease in SR energy to power it has completely destroyed this unique necro spell. Morgaine 0237, 11 April 2007 (GMT)


 * I haven't noticed the corpse expiring thing...probably because I am forced to move on before I properly make minions out of every corpse. Energy just recharges too slowly without SR, period. Spen 21:47, 10 April 2007 (CDT)

Altering MM play style
I haven't actually noticed any major changes in playing a Minion Master even with this "nerf" if I recall correctly 5 seconds isn't that long it just means instead of relying on making new minions as soon as animate "x" is recharged you have to work more on Minion matainence which isn't hard to examples are: 1)With the reduction in Vampiric Horrors energy cost they can be an effect way to supply health for more frequent BotM. 2)Or just take Aura of the Lich as the elite and enjoy the major reduction in the sacrifice to keep Minions healthy with great ease.


 * Consume Corpse-Silk Weaker 06:28, 8 April 2007 (CDT)

Oh yeah that could help, forgot about that I only use it on my Warrior ¬_¬

Change only "testing" for one week?
I read on Guru where Gaile said this update was in "testing" (aka Microsoft Beta Testing, aka, release and then fix what breaks). The "testing" was going to last one week. Due to this being in "testing", I have a little, but very little, faith that ANet will actually fix this primary attribute when the week is up. There are very many that agree that to simply remove SR bonus from spirits, even if just from allied spirits (you would only benefit from the other team's spirits, which would make you not want to bring any), would 100% and completely fix this in PvP.


 * That's news. For the record, I'd be fine with half energy from minions and none from spirits. This is because some people seem to think minions would be the next spirit spamming, which I highly doubt, because of the corpse control and amount required. But, even still, we'll give them that. Even at half energy from minions I'd get more energy from SR than I do right now. Spen 16:50, 8 April 2007 (CDT)


 * i dont know where you heard this, because GW Guru sais nothing on this, and i think they would clearly state this there instead of hiding it somewere so before making stuff up mind citeing it before we get to hopeful? --Shale 20:32, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
 * "These changes will remain in place for the week" Referenced in Gaile Gray's post here
 * Next time, RTFM before you accuse. I didn't make it up, there it is right where I said it was.  Queen Schmuck 03:37, 11 April 2007 (CDT)


 * ANet screwed the ranger primary, now they're screwing the necro primary. They didn't change the ranger primary back to it's full glory, so I don't have high hopes for the necro primary.  I know the change was partially because of paragons, but I just don't feel introducing a new class is justification to ruin old builds.  Anyways, I wasn't far enough along making my ranger my primary when they nerfed that so it didn't hit me as hard as this necro change is.  I don't have my hopes up, but I do think it's the only responsible for them to change it back. --Mooseyfate 23:07, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
 * i don't think anet is very concerned with anyones primary, or even anyones happiness level. as long as "The Metagame" is flowing in whatever grand vision the skill balancers have, they could burn down all 10 classes and not notice. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 23:24, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
 * If that were true, we'd be talking about a much bigger problem. Any game developer is concerned with making a game users enjoy (balance being a key part of enjoyment).  Just look at how much ANet has shifted philosophy from PvP to PvE (I'm not talking completely by any means) with each new chapter of the game, and the huge number of PvE only skills reportedly coming with the next expansion; why? because the game drew a surprising large percentage of PvE players. --Mooseyfate 23:33, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
 * "why? because the game drew a surprising large percentage of PvE players"
 * Yes, but that is wishful thinking. ANet is only concerned with their PvP crowd, which is funny as the PvE players spend much more real money on the game, and are without a doubt much higher in numbers of players.  The new skills will be PvE for the simple fact that every time they create new PvP skills, they screw up their idea of a balanced game.  The reason for this is the skills are used by non-primary professions in ways the developers had never thought of, and thus, deemed "overpowered".  The REAL problem with ANet is their backwards approach to fixing problems, as in, not fixing the single thing that is causing the problem, but touching many other things and therefore making those other things mostly unusable once done.  It will be interesting to see what new skills come from GW:EN since they can not affect PvP at all (don't think they will be in free update), but I am not so sure I will pay anything to ANet to get them.  I've only been playing this game for 9 months.  In those 9 months, I have seen PvE get hosed time after time, all in the name of making PvP better (and usually failing that).  The whole soul reaping thing is just the latest (and largest) thing.  Queen Schmuck 03:48, 11 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Now lookit, they've decreased energy costs for some necro skills that are popular in PvE (SS, WoB, WoP, OotV) in the April 10th upgrade. Looks like they're going to keep the new SR functionality, I'd say.

Necro Power Decrease -- Multiple Compounding Effects
After posting my observations in the Performance Reports section earlier about the very high increase in foe corpse expiry rate, I sat down to figure out the theoretical effect of this on necro power ... and I'm utterly horrified!

Those who have focussed entirely on the size of their armies and nothing else are not getting the true picture of what this nerf has done.

The claims of up to 3/4 energy loss sound bad, until you realize that this only includes the first-order effect, whereas in reality the effect is compounded (not just cumulative) with 2nd, 3rd and 4th order factors, if not more. I have to say that I'm shaking as I write this, because the deeper you look into it, the more appalling the full picture becomes.

First of all, the size of a minion army is only one factor in several, and it loses its meaning entirely at the cutoff point so you need to look at other factors such as minion renewal. It goes without saying that if corpses are expiring now (whereas before, that was almost unheard of for me), then the renewal rate has plummeted drastically. This decrease in renewal rate is an extra compounding factor here, multiplying the effect of the nerf.

Just as important as the size of a minion army (or even more so) is the longevity of each minion, because old minions have one of the highest degen rates in the game. In other words, a max-degen minion is not only worth nothing in a very short space of time (compounding factor #2), but prior to its final demise it has become a liability since it requires ever-faster rates of upkeep.

Upkeep requires energy, but we have none to spare because we're saving up to exploit all those corpses that will be expiring soon. In other words, SR energy reduction is compounded further by the increased upkeep from the increasing age of minions. That's #3.

But it gets worse. To add insult to injury, having to save up for our next animate spell means not only that we're healing our minions less but also that we're casting fewer Death Novas so that our minions are less deadly on death, a big #4, as well as all the other things that necros do, like nuking. So, the usefulness of a necro to a team totally plummets when playing the energy-saving game --- we are dead weight and just being carried along by the rest of the team while not casting.

It's quite easy to find additional efects #5 and #6 affecting teams through lack of minion decoys and minion barriers and barbs- type multipliers when we can't supply a full quota of minions, but I'll leave it at just 4 compounding effects --- that's bad enough! In fact, it's nothing short of disastrous. The necro is entirely an energy-based profession, so by decimating his sole cross-campaign energy management mechanism, he has been destroyed, at least for those who play PvE necros to the max.

[Before I sign off, just let me say that the suggestions made by some about using energy management from other professions have totally dire consequences from a game design standpoint. Energy management has to be an inherent and fully viable part of each profession alone, otherwise that profession is compromised in its ability to freely choose secondaries -- a crucial part of the game.]

In summary, this is a complete disaster that goes far beyond the simplistic observation of minion populations alone. If you take nothing else away from this post, please accept at least that an army of old minions at max-degen is not an asset but an extreme liability, both as a direct result of the rapid upkeep sacrifices and also from the drop in productive activity while in energy-saving mode. This is more than just bad. Morgaine 0650, 11 April 2007 (GMT)