Talk:Ursan Blessing

Ursan Blessing is "a Blessing for Anet" and Doesnt Need A Nerf
I dont understand the complaining that seems to be coming from the Hardcore Elitist PvE crowd and a few PvP people as far as I can tell, which is really confusing, about this PvE skill that is too powerful???

What I get when I read is many people are upset because they feel that Ursan Blessing provides too easy of a way for people to play the game. Well, guess what, if you look at what goes on in GW you will see that the vast majority of players are not hardcore. Do you see groups doing dungeons in GWEN NM or HM, very few except for the few farming teams you see doing the end game dungeons. Alot of people paying for dungeon runs is what you see. Why, because most GW players dont have 2+ hours to sit around trying to form a group that will successfully be able to beat a dungeon. Ever try a PUG only to fail half way through. Very frustrating, which is a big part of the reason that you dont see many PuGs in the harder areas of the game, or you see people forming Ursan Groups because they dont want to waste their time in a Fail Group.

Also, for those that think Ursan is too powerful or whatever, there is nothing forcing you to use Ursan. My guild does UW, FoW, DoA without Ursan because playing Ursan is pretty boring, and I like to play mesmer. Let me be the first to say though that I would never go into HM UW or HM FoW with a non Ursan PuG because they would fail and it would be a huge waste of time. at least 33% of the Ursan PuGs ive been with failed.

The people doing Ursan are not stopping anyone from forming other types of teams, I see people forming balanced non ursan teams all the time, feel free to join one.

Also Nerfing Ursan will not help the game in any way. What you will see is what there was before Ursan, and that is a bunch of farming teams. 2man, 5man, whatever. It was like pulling teeth to find a PuG to even do Forgemaster.

Ursan has been good because now at least you have 8man teams there doing the missions to do them. Not a bucn of hardcore gamers making money of of noobs charging for spider runs, or whatever. I would actually like to see Ursan buffed to the point where people could do GWEN dungeons with it. Then at least people would play instead of paying for a run. Its really hard to find a PuG dungeon, (and I really wish I could because my guild and alliance doesnt do GWEN dungeons), because of everyone just paying some stupid 2man or 3man team for a run. Also its something that any character can do. Before Ursan you had certain team configurations that were populare in some areas and if you didnt have an ele, necro, or whatever then you couldnt get in a group cause everyone was doing the same crap.

Another good thing about Ursan for Anet is that Ursan helps them succeed in their original goal of making a MMORPG that you wouldnt have to be hardcore to play. Nerfing Ursan would backfire on Anet because they would be saying if you want to play this game in its entirety you have to be a hardcore gamer, you have to be willing to sit for 4+hours to be able to play in the high end areas of the game and close the door on the vast majority of GW players. Not a good thing to do with GW2 around the corner if you plan on keeping your current GW audience. Also I think that most people that post about games on sites like this are at least a little hardcore, so keep in mind that the posts suggesting an Ursan nerf probably only represent a very small percentage of the entire GW gaming community and for every post suggesting a nerf there are probably 90+ casual gamers that would be against it. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Steeler Fan (contribs).


 * "Why, because most GW players dont have 2+ hours to sit around trying to form a group that will successfully be able to beat a dungeon. Ever try a PUG only to fail half way through."
 * Acutally, the problem is most of the people suck too much to form a decent group.


 * "Also, for those that think Ursan is too powerful or whatever, there is nothing forcing you to use Ursan."
 * Ofcourse, you're denying the fact there is no other option with this playerbase.


 * "Also Nerfing Ursan will not help the game in any way. What you will see is what there was before Ursan, and that is a bunch of farming teams. 2man, 5man, whatever. It was like pulling teeth to find a PuG to even do Forgemaster. "
 * And, ofcourse, people will learn to play the freaking game. Most people can only grind for Ursan, with Ursan. And roll Ursan. PvE might just be a challenge.


 * "I would actually like to see Ursan buffed to the point where people could do GWEN dungeons with it. "
 * That's already do-able.


 * "Another good thing about Ursan for Anet is that Ursan helps them succeed in their original goal of making a MMORPG that you wouldnt have to be hardcore to play."
 * You don't have to be hardcore. You need to know what is viable. A spammable 15 Energy skill on your Monk (Heal Party) isn't going to work without any Energy Management. Vampiric Gaze does not help in survivability. Healing Breeze is a filler if there are no other viable options. However, there are dozens of good options. Still, I see the three aforementioned fuckups happening.


 * "you have to be willing to sit for 4+hours to be able to play in the high end areas of the game and close the door on the vast majority of GW players."
 * They're Elite areas for a reason.


 * Ok, done. Have fun. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  18:27, 29 July 2008 (UTC)


 * First, please sign your comments by typing ~ at the end of them.


 * The whole "if you don't like ursan, then don't use it" argument has been made many times, and refuted many times. One could just as well argue, if you didn't like the duping bug, you shouldn't have used it, but don't ruin it for the people who do.


 * As for places that are too hard, I've only done a couple of dungeons, but I'm more familiar with the campaigns. The complete list of non-elite cooperative missions in the campaigns (58 missions total) that might be impractical for some classes to beat with henchmen/heroes without using peculiar gear, a secondary profession, pve-only skills (excluding ones given inside the mission, such as Vial of Purified Water), or consumables:


 * 1. The Eternal Grove
 * (end of list)


 * One reason for the constant runs is that many players don't learn how to play the game, because with Ursan, they don't have to, and can win anyway. Nerfing Ursan would make PvE harder only in the sense that removing the duping bug made farming gold harder.


 * The other reason is that players get lazy and get runs for missions that they could do on their own just fine if so inclined. That's hardly a reason to make it easier still.


 * As for PUGs being bad, a PUG is really only as bad as whoever organizes it. Too often, no one organizes the group, which is how you get problems.  Most of the time, it's completely predictable before starting the mission how well the PUG will do.  (Hint:  something to the effect of "hurry up and start" means "I'm going to find a creative way to wipe your group.")


 * So what about the game being an MMORPG that you don't have to be hardcore to play? Well, that's certainly what Guild Wars was before ArenaNet started adding PvE-only skills.  It's still true to a considerable extent today.  If I had an empty character slot, I could probably create a new character and have that character beat nearly any (non-elite, cooperative) hard mode mission (possibly a slightly longer list than above, for lack of fully runed and equipped heroes) in the game with just henchmen/heroes in under 20 hours of play time.  It's very rare that an MMORPG would allow new characters to be ready for the top level content so quickly.


 * But adding the grind of pve-only skills moves the game away from that. Instead, it pushes it toward the "whoever is the highest level and has the best gear wins, even if completely incompetent" approach of so many other games.  More pointedly, the approach of so many other games that I don't want to play because I don't like that approach.  I don't want to have to schedule my life around a game to have a chance to do the hardest stuff in it.  Quizzical 18:44, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Personally I'ld love to see something along the lines of "While under the affect of Ursan Blessing you cannot be the target of heals". Would actually make things interesting and fall more into line of the Norn's self reliant life style/reluctance to receive help...That and it'ld be funny to give Ursan groups something to complain about other then a classes base AL :P Hopeless Situations 04:49, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * You gotta add Gate of Madness to that list. It's at least as bad as the Grove. - [[Image:AdVictoriam1.PNG|19px]] Ad Victoriam  05:07, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Hopeless has an interesting idea. You'd have to make it stronger than only affecting targetted heals, though, as Light of Deliverance, Divine Healing, Heal Area, Life, Song of Restoration, and quite a few other skills can heal without having to target a party member.


 * And no, Gate of Madness most emphatically does not belong on that list. As far as the hardest missions with henchmen/heroes in hard mode and no pve-only skills, I wouldn't put it in the top 10.  I've done it with just henchmen/heroes in hard mode several times.  I did use a lightbringer title (rank 4), and sometimes Lightbringer's Gaze, Sunspear Rebirth Signet, or the sunspear skill of my primary class, but no other title track skills, and could have gotten by without those.  In ten tries in easy mode (all henchmen/heroes) and ten more in hard mode (some of which had other players, but never ursans), I've never wiped there, though I have had a few close calls.  Quizzical 05:29, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You gain half as much health when healed. ــѕт.  мıкε  15:27, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

"While under the affect of Ursan Blessing you can no longer be the target of any friendly spells or recieve healing" Congrats you now do more dmg then any other class in the game oh btw don't get hit cause you can't get healed you're ursan afterall and last time I checked there were no Norn monks :P Hopeless Situations 17:34, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

"The whole "if you don't like ursan, then don't use it" argument has been made many times, and refuted many times. One could just as well argue, if you didn't like the duping bug, you shouldn't have used it, but don't ruin it for the people who do."


 * The whole "if you don't like ursan, then don't use it", still stands, vividly.
 * It's the players decision to play the game the way he/she wants.
 * That's fundamental and it is not arguable.


 * Once more the "The Ursan Blessing skill is similar to a bug" argument. Ok.
 * The "duping bug"...
 * was a bug,
 * it was removed as soon as it came into developers notice
 * people got banned for using it.
 * items/gold was removed from players inventories if those players profited from the bug
 * didn't get nerfed. It was removed from the game.
 * Anet was hugely nice to players that used that bug
 * If Ursan is a bug ...
 * we are playing 8+ months with a bug in the game.
 * it should be removed from the game.
 * players should get banned for using it.
 * we shouldn't be arguing with the term "overpowered" any more

"One reason for the constant runs is that many players don't learn how to play the game, because with Ursan, they don't have to, and can win anyway. Nerfing Ursan would make PvE harder only in the sense that removing the duping bug made farming gold harder. The other reason is that players get lazy and get runs for missions that they could do on their own just fine if so inclined. That's hardly a reason to make it easier still."


 * RUNS. For 2+ years, players of Guild Wars had a "few reasons" to use RUNS and they were doing so. Now with Ursan they have "few reasons plus Ursan", so it is Ursans fault that players were always using RUNS and they are still doing so.
 * LEARN HOW TO PLAY. For 2+ years players learned the game because there was no Ursan. Now with Ursan the former players stopped learning or forgot how to play the game and the new players (buyers) don't learn anything at all, even if they want, because Ursan doesn't let them learn. It pops up on players skill bars and takes over their game-play.
 * LAZY. For 2+ years, players of Guild Wars had a "few reasons" to be lazy and use RUNS and they were doing so. Now with Ursan they have "few reasons plus Ursan", so it is Ursans fault that players were always LAZY (not the guild) and used RUNS and they are still doing so.
 * Sorry but you can't blame Ursan if players don't know or don't want to know how to play the game, they are lazy and they use runs, and/or anything bad that existed before Ursan.
 * Just out of plain opposition to Ursan-wanna-Nerfers.
 * Ursan Blessing and all PvE skills are some of the best things ever introduced to GW and if they are bugs, please Anet make more bugs of that kind. We want PvE bugs. PvE bugs for ever. Thank you !!! Ne33us 19:21, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * So basically, the way to refute someone else's argument is to begin by ignoring it, make up some other ridiculous argument that you can refute instead, and proceed to refute that? Sorry, but that doesn't touch the original argument.


 * Let's go over this yet again. No one is arguing that the existence of Ursan Blessing is a bug.  If there had been someone arguing that, then sure, you'd have refuted it.  But congratulations, you just refuted an argument that no one was making because it was so ridiculous.


 * The line "if you don't like it, don't use it" is used to implicitly assert its converse: if players do like something, then they should be able to use it.  Lest you claim that I'm reading something into the argument that isn't there, you laid it out more explicitly:  "It's the players decision to play the game the way he/she wants.  That's fundamental and it is not arguable."


 * But that is an argument that if something is in the game once, and some players like to use it, then it should remain in the game forever. That is, that nothing, no matter how game-breaking, should ever be nerfed or even changed.  Taken to its logical conclusion, that would mean that outright bugs should be left in the game.  Indeed, taken to its logical conclusion, an absolute right to play however they want would allow vulgar and hateful harassment, attempts at hacking servers, and other things far more destructive than the duping bug.


 * But after stating your claim, you shy away from its immediate corollaries. You seem to make an exception for bugs, but implicitly argue that anything else should be forever immune to nerfs.  That is, if ArenaNet doesn't recognize how powerful a skill would be when they first put it in the game or buff a previously worthless skill, and thus make it incredibly overpowered, then they should never be allowed to undo their blunder.


 * And that would be astonishingly awful game design. With more than a thousand skills in the game, it is quite difficult and perhaps impossible to balance everything perfectly.  Play balance is not an issue of, if we do such and such, everything will be perfect.  Rather, it is an case of, if we do this, it will make things better.  Good play balance comes as a result of hundreds or thousands of little tweaks over time, not some ideas in one game designer's head before he sees how stuff will play out.


 * If you're honest here, it's not hard to see that ArenaNet blundered. Do you really think that they intended to make Ursan Blessing vastly stronger than Volfen Blessing?  Even if one believes that play balance is a bad thing and Ursan Blessing should be insanely overpowered, why should not Volfen Blessing be equally overpowered?


 * You're arguing that once a mistake is made, unless it is an outright bug, it ought never to be undone, even if it could be fixed quite easily. If nerfing a skill is never allowed, then lateral changes for which it is debateable whether the skill is stronger or weaker cannot be allowed, either, because some will see them as a nerf.  Even buffing a skill would not be allowed, as it makes the other skills relatively weaker by comparison.  In that case, on what basis are you arguing that it should ever be acceptable to tweak any skills at all, or introduce new ones?  If GWEN should never have existed (as the new skills did create new counters to old ones), then Ursan Blessing should not exist at all, and we wouldn't have a problem with it being overpowered.


 * If you're going to make an argument, don't shy away from its immediate corollaries. Quizzical 20:41, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * DAMN! If that was me that you just refuted, I'd be QQing in a corner right now :P Anyway, to contribute to the "conversation", farther up on this page lies proof that it is overpowered and requires no skill --Gimmethegepgun 20:45, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I spy slippery slopes. --Shadowcrest  20:56, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The argument that dont want to use it then dont its not as simple as it looks like to do, because I have cleared fow a few times with a pug(a organized pug) and no ursans, the problem now is that if you want to do some elite area, it will take a lot much more time to find a group without ursan because most people will think "there is only ursans here, better I run it too, otherwise I dont get a group" this thought has come to my mind too, and yes I tried ursan, after 30 minutes I was bored to death of spamming through 123, and also the elite areas are called elite for some reason, maybe because players need to be more organized and to have a better strategy, not just go mindless with a skill, another problem that ursan causes is that hard mode gets easier so people who did vanquish, hard mode missions etc without it and spent a lot of time planning and vanquishing or doing the missions, will feel frustrated because now its easier to do it and there is not the same prestige associated to it.
 * About runs, there were allways runs and there will allways be, I have paid for runs, I have done runs, why I paid? because I was being lazy, with time I could have done the way myself with heroes and henchies, and I dont consider myself a very experienced player.
 * Sorry if sometimes I move from one thing to another too fast but the ideas are too many and they may come a little mixed.
 * And btw ursan needs a big nerf.
 * [[Image:FlowSig.png|floWenoL]] (Talk to me)  22:54, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

lolarchive this
nao. XD ــѕт.  мıкε  23:00, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Early archive?
The archive moved out two sections that had comments within the last three days. Quizzical 23:33, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Heh, we're all really arguing over nothing here, anyway. XD If Ursan is nerfed, I don't care, if it isn't, I still don't really care. XD ــѕт.  мıкε  23:47, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Let's face it Anet doesn't know how to balance they know how to take a big bat hit something with it repeatedly until it's unrecognizable or make something 50x better then it was just to you guessed it hit it with the bat a few times. If Ursans ever do get a nerf I just hope it'll be with the bat and not one of their first actual tweaks :P Hopeless Situations 04:07, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, they're trying very hard to find a workable nerf. Or they're just lazy. Almost a month with no update of any kind means one or the other.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]] Entrea    [Talk]  05:36, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The problem is that they're waiting to nerf ursan until they have a lot of other skill tweaks ready. If Ursan gets a suitably heavy nerf, that will probably do far more to promote PvE play balance than all the other tweaks they do added together.  Quizzical 05:44, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Correct me if I am wrong but they used to do updates every week, why now they only update once in a month? :S its weird. [[Image:FlowSig.png|floWenoL]] (Talk to me)  11:25, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * GW2 --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  11:43, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * At quizzical- sorry, I wasn't paying attention, though at a closer look the two didn't look like they would continue. You're welcome to move the topics out of the archive if you (or anyone else) is still using them. --Shadowcrest  16:30, 6 August 2008 (UTC)