User talk:Quizzical/Mesmer Hero

I love it. Lots of people just don't understand how powerful a Mesmer hero can be in difficult situations. I just about always have a Mesmer with me when vanquishing or when I was doing HM missions. Even for just simple situations, backfire and empathy can completely destroy any type of enemy. Hopefully with your post, some people might get the initiative to try them out. =) Bigrat2   Talk  10:40, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm usually having adult-Gwen whenever I enter an area which requires some Mesmerizing, Eye of the North and several mid-high PvE-areas, namely. More importantly than simply having a Mesmer player with you, Mesmer heroes have instant reflexes, which means they can observe all targets and allies at the same time. This makes Mesmers NPC party members more effective in interrupting and draining enchantments than player Mesmers, which is quite funny... J Striker 10:04, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I use Gwen as a swiss army knife; She can interrupt, disable, damage, and support, and she can do it much better than a human player. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 10:06, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I should have made PvE ele or 'sin instead of Mesmer. <.< I'd delete her but I already got her Glacial Gloves and used pretty much money on her... J Striker 10:11, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I got my mesmer Glacial Gloves too! Also full Vabbian. XD [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 10:16, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * 3 necro heroes. Lord of all tyria 20:27, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * But what about the times when necromancers fail? Quizzical 20:32, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * How many more of these essays haven't I read? :P Lord of all tyria 20:32, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Why you are wrong
Let's take interruptions & armor ignoring damage:

This interrupts just like your mesmer hero but is also capable of dealing damage, DW, etc. Anthem of Flame deals 144 damage of pure degen if using the standard dual frontline in addition to this one paragon with no other physical attackers with attack skills. 144 damage. Armor ignoring. That's more damage than esurge, a damage elite. Plus, Cruel Spear does lots of +damage and Wild Throw does more +damage and kills stances. GftE is buffing your melee characters and Stand Your Ground adds defensiveness to your team. Something that your mesmer heroes can't do quite as well.

Ok, now for energy denial: WHAT!? Mobs in PvE have nearly unlimited energy. It's far more efficient to just flat-out kill the mobs than to drain them of energy.

And as for backfire/empathy? Empathy, at 14 dom, is doing 133 damage per cast. Mobs in PvE, especially hard mode, would take many many casts to kill, have monk support, and monsters in PvE don't keep casting and casting and casting and casting. They stop, take a break, and cast again a few seconds later. It would, quite simply, be more efficient to out-damage them and kill them through normal means.

So, basically, run a real team.  —ǥrɩɳsɧƴ ɖɩđđɭɘş   12:57, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


 * So basically, you're arguing that a mesmer is never useful because a paragon/mesmer can be an inferior substitute for some of the things that a mesmer could do and because you can make some demonstrably false claims? Empathy, for example, does 52 damage per attack at 14 domination.  Energy surge is area of effect, won't conflict with other degen, and doesn't rely on your party having exactly 3 3/7 characters use an attack skill in the next ten seconds.  And, of course, if you've tried the Norn Fighting Tournament, the way to beat quite a few of the opponents is to run them out of energy, which would be awfully hard to do if they had infinite energy.
 * Wow, if your characters AREN'T using an attack every 10 seconds, this is my last edit on this page because you can't even PvE for shit. That out of the way, 52 damage is fine and dandy, but melee mobs are better shut down and out-damaged by the necros you so desperately despise (read: SS, because it has AoE). And of course, I've tried the norn fighting tournament and you don't use heroes there. Maybe you've never done the NFT? Either way, the way to win the NFT is to use a spirit spammer with Ursan smacked in the elite slot.  —ǥrɩɳsɧƴ ɖɩđđɭɘş  [[Image:Grinshpon blinky cake 2.gif|19px]] 22:06, 22 July 2008 (UTC)


 * My necro, elementalist, monk, mesmer, and ritualist rarely carry attack skills. How about yours?


 * As far as the Norn fighting tournament, yeah, spirit spammer is the way to win as a ritualist. But that's one class, and there are ten.  As for ursan, if that's your idea of doing content, then as said above, you haven't actually done the tournament for real.  Quizzical 22:29, 22 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Interestingly enough (and this speaks of your Guild Wars skill, might I add), a build such as the one above is obviously designed to be used in a primarily physical team. Yeah, my ele, necro, monk, mesmer, and ritualist don't carry attack skills but why would they? Why would I even bring them if I can bring another paragon and a warrior? Why even bother with healer heroes when a secondary paragon allows me to do all of the normal mode content with a single WoH henchman? In case you haven't figured it out, I might as well spell it out for you: effective team building isn't like silly puddy. You don't mix a bunch of fancy colored shit together expecting a masterpiece. For example, if I use a necro, I would also bring another necro with minions to get the soul reaping bonus for both. From there, I might as well bring a 3rd necro. With 1 paragon, I can bring an orders derv and 2 physical henchmen with a hex rit, or a second paragon dropping the orders derv or the hex rit, or 2 warrior heroes with set attacks that are able to be spammed easily such as a hammer with FGJ or a sword build containing S&M or Dslash. But you knew that, right? Right?  —ǥrɩɳsɧƴ ɖɩđđɭɘş  [[Image:Grinshpon blinky cake 2.gif|19px]] 03:44, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * So let's see here, if I want to play my mesmer, why would I bring a mesmer in my group? Maybe because I want to be in my own group?  Is that so unreasonable?  Quizzical 04:45, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You aren't your own hero, though. And grinsh, of course you wouldn't bring a mesmer in a heavily physical group, since by definition the group is heavily physical. Not everyone likes to play that way, though. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 04:56, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Lolz
"Rangers can interrupt quite a bit, too, provided that the shot doesn't get dodged."

That made me laugh. How can an interrupt be dodged when spells are being cast? Unless you're interrupt spamming some kiting Monk, that won't happen. Ever. Also, I kinda agree with Grinsh up there ^ Cept about Backfire. That does help... on Monk bosses. Slow cast is slow. --- -- (s)talkpage  13:13, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


 * You've never missed with Broad Head Arrow? Never missed with anything else because you were blinded?  And Ranger interrupts are slow enough that sometimes in order to interrupt things, you have to guess when it's going to be cast.  Quizzical 17:26, 22 July 2008 (UTC)


 * You've never used condition removal before? That's cool, mate. Also, caster mobs don't move.  —ǥrɩɳsɧƴ ɖɩđđɭɘş  [[Image:Grinshpon blinky cake 2.gif|19px]] 22:00, 22 July 2008 (UTC)


 * You always happen to be near the end of casting a condition removal skill right as the condition was applied? Impressive.  For the rest of us, characters will often have various conditions on them for a few seconds at a time--or possibly longer, against mobs that spam them quite a bit.  And yes, most caster mobs do move in pve.  Sometimes they move, stop briefly to cast something, and proceed to move again.  Quizzical 22:29, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Your argument makes no sense as most condition removal skills have negligible casting times. As far as caster mobs, they only move when being attacked by melee or taking ~3 pulses of AoE damage.&mdash; Powersurge360 Violencia  22:36, 22 July 2008 (UTC)


 * If you need to interrupt a mob right now, waiting a second to use a condition removal skill before you try to interrupt usually means you're too late. Add in the reaction time that it takes to stop what you're doing and use a condition removal skill and it's even worse.


 * As for caster mobs not moving, I see them move around quite a lot. That happens even when I take no melee and no damage over time AoE.  Indeed, it happens both when the mobs are in combat and when they're out of combat.  If caster mobs never move except for when taking melee or multiple hits of AoE, then I'm not sure what game you're playing, but it's certainly not the same Guild Wars that I'm playing.  Quizzical 22:47, 22 July 2008 (UTC)


 * When a caster is casting, they dont move. Thusly, the shot will never be dodged. Also, if you're any smart, you shoot BHA at, like, 1 step away from the caster. Good luck dodging that. Condition removal? FF bitch works, RC is miraculous, or another cond. removal. You don't wait with removing your Blindness when you see them casting, duh! And when all else fails... --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  22:58, 22 July 2008 (UTC)


 * So now you're saying that a ranger should get to point blank range to interrupt, whereas a mesmer can use full spell range? And this makes rangers better because of what exactly?  And you're citing an awful lot of non-ranger skills, all of which take time to use.  And do you really expect a ranger hero to use all those skills in an efficient manner?  While we're at it, how do you get your ranger heroes to use pve-only skills?  With a mesmer hero, if the hero needs to interrupt and mobs are using blinding or blocking skills or moving around or whatever, it doesn't matter.  Quizzical 00:04, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The link to Dodge This was a lame pun. Most (all) of those Cond Removal skills are used by party members. Eh. I'm not saying you need to interrupt PB, you need to shoot BHA at PB range to not get it dodged. Don't twist my words. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  00:06, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The point that I made in the article was that mesmer interrupts interrupt the target if the hero gets the cast off. The ranger interrupts only do so if they hit, and there are plenty of reasons why they might not, among them blindness and blocking, miss chance hexes, etc.  This makes mesmer interrupts more reliable.  Are you disputing this?  Quizzical 01:09, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * No. The main point was that an interrupt should never be dodged with a clean mind. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  01:12, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It should also be noted that ranger interrupts can be fired off far more often for (on average) far less energy. &mdash; Powersurge360 Violencia  02:48, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, and those wily rangers can deal damage.  —ǥrɩɳsɧƴ ɖɩđđɭɘş  [[Image:Grinshpon blinky cake 2.gif|19px]] 03:38, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Ranger interrupts can interrupt all kinds of skills too, not just spells as most Mesmer interrupts. In PvE you usually (but not always, ofc) have a clear line of sight on your target as well, and blocking skills are not so common in PvE. Same thing with blindness, unless you're doing Shards of Orr. :P J Striker 04:02, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Would you mind telling the Kournan Bowmen that I've been fighting lately that blocking skills aren't so common in PvE? And the Margonite Clerics, too.  And maybe the Arms of Insanity that I'm going to have to fight soon.  They don't seem to have gotten the memo that blocking skills aren't so common in PvE.  Actually, nearly all of the campaign missions I've done in the last few months have had mobs use blocking and/or blinding skills.  Quizzical 04:55, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Those faggotynecrofails!  —ǥrɩɳsɧƴ ɖɩđđɭɘş  [[Image:Grinshpon blinky cake 2.gif|19px]] 12:24, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Yeah, it's extremely important to interrupt Kournan Bowmen and Arms of Insanity. Their skills are devastating? 05:01, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * For ttly srsly dude. I mean, the Priest/Cleric isn't going to do anything useful. Ok, sarcasm aside, the point stays the same: better off interrupting Monks. It's not like you'll DShot their Savage Shot any time soon. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  12:30, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Why don't we compare a few mesmer and ranger interrupts and see how they match up?


 * Distracting Shot vs Power Lock
 * D-shot is cheaper, interrupts and disables any skill, and recharges faster. It also deals a negligible amount of damage, but it can be augmented by Orders, Barbs, preparations, Conjure, etc. Power Lock only interrupts and disables spells or chants, costs twice as much (not considering expertise), recharges more slowly, and disables for a significantly shorter period of time. However, Power Lock cannot be prevented, save by a counter-interrupt (laughable) or simply poor timing.


 * Punishing Shot vs Power Spike
 * Power Spike is cheaper, sans a stupid amount of expertise, and typically more damaging as well, unless Punishing Shot is combined with a ridiculous amount of damage boosts. It has no flight time and can only be prevented by anti-interruption skills. Punishing Shot, however, interrupts all skills, recharges significantly faster, and is often used in ranger spikes because it will deal damage regardless of whether the target is casting a spell (or, indeed, has any spells to cast).


 * Disrupting Shot vs Cry of Frustration
 * Disrupting and CoF have the same cost (although expertise will always make Dishot cheaper) and recharge. They both interrupt all skills and deal damage. Dishot can also interrupt auto-attacking, which is barely useful, and will deal more damage in any practical situation. Cry of Frustration, however, is an aoe interrupt, which can be devastating when well timed. It also makes affected foes swear, which is lol imo etc.


 * Magebane Shot vs Power Block
 * Tricky comparison. Magebane Shot will interrupt any action, is much cheaper, recharges much faster, and cannot be blocked, which is one of the three counters against ranger interrupts- the other two, of course, are blind/"miss" hexes and interrupt prevention skills. And since it disables, Magebane also ignores the last counter, provided it's used on a spell. Power Block is expensive, recharges slowly, and only affects spells and chants- however, it has the incredible capacity to shut down the majority of an entire build if used well, and the disable also lasts 40% longer than Magebane's at typical Domination Magic levels.


 * Concussion Shot vs Panic
 * lulz


 * Other things to consider.
 * All ranger interrupts can be used to spread conditions with various preparations and ranger skills.
 * Mesmers have access to cast-lengthening skills which make interrupts much easier, especially in PvE and particularly in Hard Mode.
 * Rangers have greater survivability due to much better armor and extensive blocking skills.
 * Mesmers have better energy pools, but their energy management is all active and skill-based. Expertise is passive and amazing.
 * Mesmers have hexes as well as a few conditions; Rangers only have conditions, which are typically easier to remove.
 * Gwen is cuter than Margrid, but about the same as Jin. Norgu is a fat worthless, but at least he's not a furry.
 * Discuss. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 21:16, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Most people run 13 or 14 Exp. Dunno what you use, but a stupid amount of Expertise equals 16 in my books. Also, Punishing Shot just isn't worth it with Magebane.
 * Slowing hexes also help Rangers.
 * Conditions are easier to apply. MUCH easier. A simple shot, or an interrupt applies Bleeding or Poison. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  21:22, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Most people run 12+1+1 Marksmanship, 8+1 Expertise, and 10+1 Wilderness Survival. What are you using, Glass Arrows? [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 21:25, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * If you wish to compare ranger and mesmer interrupts, you're missing the most important difference: Mesmer interrupts are a lot faster.  Something on the order of 1/6 of a second is much faster than 1/2 a second plus flight time.  That's enough of a difference that mesmers can interrupt a lot of stuff that rangers will simply be too slow for.  If it's heroes you're taking about, it's not just can interrupt a lot more, but will.


 * But comparing interrupts alone misses the point of the article. A mesmer can have those interrupts, and at the same time, also have hex removal, enchantment removal, energy denial, slowing hexes, or various other situationally useful skills that may be vital to the party's success.  An interrupt ranger doesn't get any of that.


 * I use both ranger and mesmer heroes quite a bit; I'm well aware that rangers have their uses, too. But some people seem to think that mesmers are completely useless, or at least useless in pve.  And I find that absolutely absurd.  Quizzical 21:26, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * It's 1/4 cast for Ranger interrupts, mind you.
 * Ok, so not always 13. Still, nowadays people run 8+1wilds/10+1Exp/12+1Marks with either Marks or Exp head, depending on Elite. CripShot goes even further with 11+1+1 Exp. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  21:28, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Considering that there is no difference whatsoever between Expertise 9 and 11 unless you're using 15e skills, I can't imagine why anyone would run 9 wild, 11 exp, 14 marks. >.> [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 21:31, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Nowadays, people run 12/9/6 builds because they forgot to do their attribute quests. Or maybe different people run different builds.  That's allowed, too, you know.  Quizzical 21:33, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I say no. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 21:34, 23 July 2008 (UTC)