Talk:Game updates/Archive19

current H/H AI
Still has problems. It was too aggressive when they would run off to attack unprovoked. But sometimes I think it is not aggressive enough now. I will for example be attacking a foe with a Flatbow, even without a height advantage. Unless the foe comes within earshot/spellcasting range of the H/H, they will not move or attack back. It's especially a problem if they are actually taking damage from this foe, and won't move out to attack them. Even if I call the target, nothing happens... :\

I really liked the AI where if you called a target, the Warriors and other frontliners would then advance to the target, but no one else. And they would also not rush out until you called or such. It made a number of difficult encounters much easier for me, by drawing aggro and diverting opening spells.

On the other hand, Argo still likes to advance to melee range for Bed of Coals, and (sometimes) Monk H/H to touch range for Healing Touch. So maybe all is not lost. (T/C) 12:56, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I have noticed this too. My normal PvE position is an Imbagon or some ranger, both of which I don't like being targeted. It's a lot harder to send the H/H in now.
 * On an unrelated note, do you know what would be great? Pre-protting algorithms. Drag nmn   talk cont  15:06, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * What, you mean having Spirit Bond and Protective Spirit cast on the first person to take ANY damage isn't pre-protting? :p [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 15:14, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * My normal PvE position is monk, so I've been noticing this A LOT (not coincidentally, I've started running SoD in PvE again so when everything goes for me I don't die). When you call a target, the heroes and henchman should not need to wait for you to aggro it first before attacking. The point is that the human player is not always something that should even be attacking, much less drawing aggro >.> Anet ftl  &not; Wizårdbõÿ777  ( talk ) 16:48, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * What happened to flagging? Anyways, my gretaest woe is still the castcancelling. When my Tahlkora is behind a bit (edge of aggro bubble) and I ask her to cast Sig of Devotion for once, she continually cancelcasts it until I cancel the order, and then finishes casting... >.>" --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  17:42, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * When you flag them, all of them (not just the warriors) run up, and they all have to reach the flag before they start doing anything else. As opposed to going a little bit out of aggro range, pinging a target, and having all the heroes/henchies take appropriate action (e.g. - sousuke/zhed run into casting range and start casting savannah heat while devona and M.O.X charge in)  &not; Wizårdbõÿ777  ( talk ) 18:09, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Don't flag em in the middle of a mob, but on the edge of the aggro bubble. It helps :) --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  19:49, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Heroes set to aggressive react to called foes up to a half an aggro circle from their range (rangers with long bows react from the farthest range, melees react from the shortest. It's only really useful for frontliners though, because if all the party attacks at once, the AI is going to pick the weakest armored/lowest health anyways. Mentioned it here as well, but no one pays attention to me. /emo. &mdash; Powersurge360  23:20, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * But I can't change how the henchmen react. Most times I have 2 Monk hero and someone else. It is bad idea to send in caster by themselves, if I am taking one...Vekk to frontlines nothx. :L [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 23:25, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, seems to me like the simplest fix would be to implement Aggressive hero behavior into Henchmen frontliners. And it's funny you should say that, because I was using Vekk to tank hydras in HM Crystal Desert not too long ago because I couldn't manage the henchmen AI to tank the damn things. Protective spirit is amazing, especially when you bind it to a key, lol. &mdash; Powersurge360  23:28, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

while on the subject of Henchmen
I really wish they would fix the bug where male Warriors make male Assassin sounds, and most female casters make the female Assassin sound. It's been there for a looooong time now. (T/C) 05:46, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol, I never noticed that one, but that may have something to do with me changing my volume settings after playing with Talon for a while - holy cow he's more annoying than the blue jays outside my mom's window early in the morning! (Edit:I don't live with my mom, I've just visited her early before... ^_^; - felt a need to clarify that one...) RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 17:11, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
 * ...yeah, your mom's room can get quite loud...you raise a good point... :P (GW-Kiron 19:23, 15 September 2008 (UTC))
 * oho slapdown --BeeD 10:11, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Beed, I think Kiron just meant that he has heard these birds in the morning before... (After looking at his userpage, anyways.) That was uncalled for. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 17:01, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Ha ha, Yeah, we christians are not allowed 'your mom' jokes, i forgot :P (131.95.165.201 22:34, 16 September 2008 (UTC))GW-Kiron 22:35, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Untrue, I use them dozens of times a day. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 22:36, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, then, how mature... RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 02:32, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * That's what she said [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 02:33, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Who? What? O_o RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 02:40, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * That was my first "your mum" joke in over a year. gimme a break D: At my age, a little immaturity is a good thing, keeps my perspective... wherever it's pointed --BeeD 10:48, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * *resisting....resisting....forget it* Your mother's perspective is pointed. (GW-Kiron 19:42, 18 September 2008 (UTC))

Spirit Aggression
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but in addition to the basic h/h aggression nowadays, they are much more aggressive to Ranger spirits (havn't paid attention to rit ones), this is a problem, as when you are trying to dodge groups, they attack a spirit, then the whole group comes your way... 23:55, 3 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Is that appropriate for the Guide to Aggro, the "Aggro gone wrong" section maybe? I can't tell. --◄mendel► 00:32, 4 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I was under the impression that it has always been that way...or at least I'm used to that behavior for a long time. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 01:05, 4 November 2008 (UTC)


 * No. Usually if you pass by an inert (non-attacking) spirit and do not target-call or attack it, heroes/henchmen would not touch it either, only minions would.  I guess that got changed too... RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 23:08, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Heroes failing to cast spells
On the 22nd of August an update was made to force heroes to stop casting if they are out of range (or something like that). I never had a problem with it before, now after the update, the monk heroes will run out as if trying to heal or rez. and then stop casting (which burns up the energy of the spell) and then run back to me or the flag, then repeat. and sometimes they'll just stand there and try to cast, fail, try again, fail again, repeat.. I have seen a hero burn through ALL of their energy before giving up. and many times it is done so fast that i don't even realize what is happening until it is to late. A hero monk with no energy is a bit of a problem. Is anyone else having this problem? Varuuth 13:31, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes. It's annoying.. Esp. when I want them to cast something like Meteor.. Bye bye, Energy. Hello exhaustion :( I also noted it above, with a different example. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  13:37, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I've only seen this happen once or twice. What I get more annoyed about it that Tahlkora will keep moving to stop casting Signet of Devotion, but Zho has no problem lagging waaay behind the party trying to keep Read the Wind up 100%. X( [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 19:28, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Happens all the time to me, ever since that awful AI update. --Macros 19:49, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Lionguards are Corsairs
when was it documented that Lionguards became Corsairs ?? Big Bow 22:34, 18 September 2008 (UTC)


 * It's just part of the talk like a pirate day --Gimmethegepgun 22:40, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Bottle of Grog etc.
So what's the matter that this undocumented pirate-day update is not in the news on the mainpage nor anything mentioned here in the update news? But something as unimportant as some hero skill trainer (wtf) needs a note? --Birchwooda Treehug 11:25, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The wiki was very quiet yesterday (everybody drunk on grog?), so why don't you add it? I haven't had time to play GW myself. --◄mendel► 13:11, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I can add stuff pretty well in broken English here (guess I'll try) ;D But how to add it in the News on the mainpage? Ok, seeing the code in the editing page, I can't add new updates. Thought I could directly type the text there. As information at least: The undocumented pirate event started on Thursday 21st 9pm CET (8pm GMT). WoW is "celebrating" it too, but there the characters got transformed in pirate themed figures... must be pretty ugly tho, because my WoW friend wouldn't show me a screenshot of this char :S --Birchwooda Treehug 13:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

grammar error?
..."Rescued Kamadan's kidnapped Hero Skill Trainer, Pikin, from his corsair captives." ??? how do you rescue someone from their captives?! shouldn't it be captors? sorry if that was lame/unecessary Omnipresentgnome 03:20, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Nice catch :P I totally missed that xD  &not; Wizårdbõÿ777  ( talk ) 04:31, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, nice catch :), btw, archive soon anyone? Shogankiller 12:07, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

zzz.. fix the fucking SV thing, zzz. 217.120.229.159 08:05, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * What's wrong with Spoil Victor/Sympathetic Visage (dunno which you mean)? [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 00:18, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * There's an exploit of sorts that people use in GvG with Spoil Victor. All 8 players have a pet and stand next to the enemy guild lord. They hex the lord with sv who then uses cyclone axe and asplodes. Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|19px]] 00:25, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * That's a bug with the Guild Lord, not so much with SV itself. But yeah, this goes to show again that I don't know anything of PvP. :( [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 00:36, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * There are some rather good videos of the exploit in action on youTube, if you care to look. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 01:02, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes Entropy, every one is scared of them nerfing SV. They should just fix the amulet of protection so that it includes life loss. Or remove cyclone axe from the lord's skill bar. SV in itself is not overpowered. Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|19px]] 12:00, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The problem isn't that it doesn't include life loss (I believe it does). The problem is that, since all of the damage packets are simultaneous, the amulet of protection checks to see if every single damage packet is allowed before the guild lord actually takes them - meaning every one is permitted, because when it checks, the guild lord still hasn't taken any damage.  &not; Wizårdbõÿ777  ( talk ) 18:10, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Have a link to one of those video's? I couldn't find any searching on Youtube GW-Viruzzz 18:35, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCahF84nXnI Just found it there :P looks sweet :D  }{ Ipo™ }{  18:39, 5 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The other way around, Wiz; First the Lord takes all the damage (1800? ) and then the amu checks if he has taken >25 DPS. But, the Amu is disabled because the lord is already dead by then. The Amu should check the amount of damage before the end-hp is calculated. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  18:56, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Prove to me that SV is a problem outside of GvG. (You can't use it to kill Cyndr etc. anymore.) [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 19:08, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Aha... sorry for that mistake :P SV is fine every where else. It's a strong skill, but it's not overpowered. Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|19px]] 19:16, 5 October 2008 (UTC)


 * It's great fun on Sins in RA when you lack a Monk <3 Usually they die along with their target. Or the target lives on, which isn't too uncommon. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  19:49, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

9 October
Burning Arrow is realy annoying now ^^ Alleycat! 22:43, 9 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Argh! wtf! i see roland cyneri goin around on talk pages talkin abt updates and u abt burning arrow but i dont see any update!-Rabus 22:49, 9 October 2008 (UTC)


 * There are more sources on the internet =) Alleycat! 23:33, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, this is just WONDERFUL. The always ridiculous and overused BA got an unwarranted buff, while Incendiary got nerfed into uselessness again --Gimmethegepgun 13:07, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I honestly wonder how some of these bugs come up... Luxon Spear occasionally dupes itself? What tha hell?  They randomly add moronic script commands to things?  Or are they taffing with their script implementations?  Some of the crap I see on these updates makes me question the mental wellbeing of the Guild Wars staff.  [[Image:RHSig.jpg]] talk 22:03, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It happened in the Sunjiang District mission, where instead of getting an Urn of Saint Viktor, you would instead receive a second Spear of Archemorus. Oh, and have you ever even tried to write a game of this magnitude, there are always bound to be mixups in commands, so lay off the GW staff. King Neoterikos 22:17, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I know, but some of these mixups just seem so easily avoided. Also, introducing bugs into an area of the game that had nothing to do with the update; it just strikes me as odd.  I realize there can be mixups, I'm a programmer myself, and I know firsthand the truth of the old adage "shit happens."  [[Image:RHSig.jpg]] talk 19:46, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

New Flare Spam
gg 208.44.247.101 22:50, 9 October 2008 (UTC)


 * dude.. it aint flare spam without flare... P.S. I see the update now-Rabus 22:57, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't forget to add Arcane Mimicry and an ally with Master of Magic.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]] Entrea   [Talk]  23:04, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * That way you can cancel it with Lyssas like a tru pro (68.63.217.123 20:26, 10 October 2008 (UTC))
 * If you cast Lyssa's first it wouldn't. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 20:27, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You need energy storage to run MoM. Why spec E/Me into energy storage and Insp w/ Lyssa's to mimic MoM off someone else? --Shadowcrest 21:34, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * bcuz it wud be epic. 10 enrgy regen makes things gud.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]] Entrea   [Talk]  21:40, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'm sure you'd never have a problem with that. (68.63.217.123 21:08, 11 October 2008 (UTC))

That was a long time coming
"Streamlined Leah Stone's path and increased her speed for the bonus in Abaddon's Mouth." While I have no intention to go redo that now at least it'll help next time :). Ezekiel  [Talk]  23:25, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * If you do the bonus properly then you'd never have this problem. -_- [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 01:22, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You have to admit her speed inside the fortress is horribly slow though. I never saw a problem with the path afterwards though. Overlord Stan 01:55, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, it used to be that if you're doing this with henchies, you'd clear the path all the way, then go get Leah, and then go have lunch... Come back, and bonus is done, then you can do the mission... Gotta admit, it took them a while to fix that. I'm not sure I know what the "proper" way was to do this before to avoid the speed/path problem, according to Entropy. O_o RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 04:47, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * That is what you did if you had H/H. If you play it safe with players (or ofc have good Heroes), you can sometimes release her and then run ahead to clear the path, thus taking advantage of her slow speed. The bug where she stays inside the fortress and dies only happens when you don't kill the certain Ether Seal, which doesn't take much time, and you have to do that for normal mission anyway. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:27, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I bet she won't get stuck on the chest anymore. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 05:35, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Gadd is not a pain anymore
"Removed Iron Mist from Gadd." Woot! It was a pain, especially with Assassin's Promise! 90.29.66.71 10:26, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol. I used to take and air spiker hero when doing the GOLEM quest just for that damned reason. Took me a while to figure out why some of the monsters in the Bloodstone Caves randomly became invulnerable sometimes, thank god Insidious still worked.  I so wished the game would let me kill that old rat myself... >_< RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 23:09, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Praise the gods!!! to bad it came AFTER i did finding the bloodstone in HM lol Shogankiller 00:35, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * off topic... but i swore i saw "Gadd is not a palin anymore" when i was scrolling down.--[[Image:Mr Squints.jpg]](Page/Talk) 06:30, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
 * That is also true. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 06:36, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep! Used to be glad when Gadd was announced dead at the end of G.O.L.E.M., and to watch Vekk 'push him over a bridge'! Now I can feel a bit sorry for the grumpy ole thing! GW-Susan 13:18, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Update - Friday, October 24, 2008
If only it was true...
 * The assassin class has undergone a class revamp, because we felt that the dagger system has become quite weak and unflexible over the course of time.
 * Off-hand and Dual attacks can now be executed without meeting a prerequisite, however a penality is incurred:
 * An offhand attack that is used without a lead attack will deal 33% less damage, have its recharge increased by 5 seconds and durations of conditions inflected by this type of attack will last 15% shorter.
 * A dual attack that is used without an off-hand attack will deal 66% less damage (twice), have its recharge increased by 10 seconds and durations of conditions inflected by this type of attack will last 30% shorter.
 * As a result of this, many dagger skills have had their cooldowns reworked.
 * We hope to have made the assassin class more flexible and we will continue to monitor the class over the course of the coming weeks.
 * What's the point of being able to use them with penalties? So you can skip lead, penalize off-hand, and get full use of a dual using only 2 skill slots instead of 3?  Or spam Repeating Strike?  :P  That defeats the purpose of assassin skill chaining, I think.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 18:56, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * That's some stiff damage penalty. Blades of Steel (strongest dual attack for pure damage) is 120 bonus damage, and only having it deal 40 is rather pathetic.
 * On the other hand, if you're running a KD lock build, then this would be a major buff. Also, a few skills would probably become OP, such as Exhausting Assault and Vampiric Assault, where condition/damage is irrelevant. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 18:57, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, well, they can always nerf the hell out of those to compensate. Also, the reworking cooldowns part would just overpower any valid chain.  I don't see how this accomplishes the "flexibility" goal there...  Good job thinking through that suggestion.  ;)  Got another?  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 19:06, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You must've misunderstood the cooldowns part, with the reworked cooldowns a cooldown for Twisted Fangs would for example be 10 seconds, so you can run up and use it to spike a target thats being attacked by someone else, as a penality it will take 20 seconds to recharge
 * I think you didn't get it. Reducing the recharge to 10 seconds is making the skill more powerful when you use it properly, without a penalty.  If you do that to every skill, then guess what, using them PROPERLY will make them more powerful.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 18:07, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Talk:Assassin [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 19:10, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The skill chaining requirement is what makes blocking and antiblocking more useful (and also blind and unblind). Maybe to make it easier for people with lag, what they should do is make it an out of sequence attack not consume energy (in addition to not working as per normal).
 * If they did this, they could also unnerf Sand Shards! Sand Shards was nerfed during the Nightfall PvP weekend because of people using it, Way of the Empty Palm, and Exhausting Assault. --Macros 12:49, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Sand Shards is 1 skill, Assassin is 1 class.


 * The alternative: Make blocked skills not trigger the cooldown of the skill, because that fucks up assassins and makes them way too weak with all the ridiculous blocking going on, having to wait 15 seconds to use the attack again is ridiculous.
 * That would make then too powerful. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 20:26, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
 * "having to wait 15 seconds to use the attack again is ridiculous"? A hammer warrior takes a full 17.5 seconds to recharge backbreaker if he misses - and that's assuming all subsequent attacks connect. If blocking is that much of a problem for you, then either bring unblockable attacks (Golden Fox Strike, Wild Strike, etc) or bring an anti-block skill (Rigor Mortis)  &not; Wizårdbõÿ777  ( talk ) 21:07, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Uh, lol, Rigor Mortis on a sin :p Try Expose Defenses or Unseen Fury instead. Also, BB Warrior should have Mokele Smash, Enraging Charge, FGJ, Flail, etc etc. so I think 17.5 seconds is a bad estimate. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 21:20, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
 * First that what Entropy said, warriors have adrenalin builders, and second: warriors have lots of other useful attacks which they can use at ANY TIME, your an assassin and your lead attack gets blocked? OH TOO BAD, autoattacking for you. And if it was by shield bash you might aswell type /dance and go to the toilet.

Don't trigger cooldown for assas if your skill is blocked is fine, it still takes up the energy.
 * Entropy, you might want to actually look at Rigor Mortis. Same cost, same cast, lower recharge. Longer duration at 0 Curses than Expose Defenses has at 11. It's a MUCH better skill. Oh, and Rigor Mortis prevents all blocking, not just on the user's attacks. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 22:41, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Being a huge assassin fan, I'll say that a drastic change would be best. It would involve removing leads, offhands, and duals, at least as they exist now, and replacing them with chains that become more powerful depending on how many attacks actually hit.  Perhaps little slashes would appear on your target's health monitor.  These slashes would eventually amount to a damage multiplier or something when you land a finishing move.  This solution has its flaws though, and not only because of all the work required to implement it.  Big Prots would completely wreck the advantage of a potent finishing spike. Lazuli  13:07, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
 * From my 2 weeks before I got bored of wow, i think i remember that's how it works there. And tbh I like this system better then what WoW had GW-Viruzzz 13:12, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Never played WoW, but that actually sounds like the system used in Diablo. --Macros 14:22, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Little closer to WoW's style, but both are similar. With most D2 sin chains, each charge had a different effect(ie, you can build up 1-3 charges, if you release after 1 charge you do an ice attack, a fire attack at 2 charges, or a lightning one at 3 charges), whereas with WoW the effects stack. For example, when you attack you build up "combo points", then when you use a finishing move, it adds say, 10 damage for 1 point, 12 for 2, 14 for 3, 16 for 4, and 20 for 5(which is the max you can build up). DKS01 14:29, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
 * That was only one of the attacks in Diablo, the tiger one added raw damage, and a few others only did a single element (the triple-element one was a level 30 skill, iirc.) --Macros 14:37, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The others worked similarly though. Tiger Strike was the only one that added raw damage, even the single element ones had different effects based on number of charges. Claws of Thunder for example adds lightning damage on charge one, generates a nova on charge 2, and releases charged bolts on charge three. The other elemental ones work the same way. Yes, I still play D2 regularly(~26 fully geared active characters atm), and I'm pretty knowledgeable about different builds and skills, heh. DKS01 20:46, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Or you charge all of them at once, and make one creature explode in a million tiny bits. Say, charge on some Dark Ones, and unleash every charge upon Andariel; you might be able to 1-hit her on a normal level :P --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  20:11, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Because a drastic change simply isn't realistic at this point in GW's life, I guess simply buffing a number of Assassin skills would work. I'm of the belief that Assassins should be able to deal more damage than they do, especially because their chains are very easily countered.  Adding damage back to the Ox skills would help, but those already see enough use.  Buff Repeating Strike, Nine Tail Strike, Fox Fangs, and other attacks that rarely get used.  Give Assassins some skill bar compression like you gave  Rangers. Lazuli  17:21, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Or buff some of their common hexes/enchantments to give their attacks a chance to ignore a blocking attempt: The target has 25%...75% chance to fail when attempting to block your next 3...5 attacks, or something along those lines.  So, if they had, say, a 75% chance to block it, well, at the top of the failure range, it turns into a 75%*(100-75)%=19% chance to block instead.  A useful improvement, I think.  Especially against Distortion, since the 100% block is now reduced to 25%, and they still lose energy every time they fail to block.  Or, like was mentioned before, use Rigor Mortis or unblockable attacks, they were created for a reason, and are quite underrated.  An unblockable Assassin is usually a death sentence to most targets.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 18:22, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Rigor Mortis got buffed and Expose Defenses got nerfed while I wasn't looking. >.> Distortion isn't a 100% block either?
 * On an unrelated note, new elite skill that make you cause KD when you critical would be fun. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 19:27, 25 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Lolimba Elite then. Way of the Master, Critical Eye, KD-on-crit ,and whip out a Spear. Take Earthbind to counter that pesky Ward of Stability everyone would take with them. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  20:11, 25 October 2008 (UTC)


 * You're right Distortion is only 75% block, but whatever, even worse for the Mesmer. :P RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 02:20, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe they could change Wastrel's Collapse(lolbad) into something like "For X...XX seconds, the next Y...YY times you use a successful Lead, Offhand, or Dual attack on a foe that is not using a skill, that foe is knocked down." --Gimmethegepgun 18:43, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Even more imba. Spam some cheap, fast recharge skills (Unsuspecting, Wild, DB?) and KD lock em into heck. KD on random hits is imba, period. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  18:49, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Hey, it was an idea, and I said "something like", so you could change some stuff around, like maybe have it dual attacks only, or "the next time" (with a few seconds recharge) --Gimmethegepgun 19:09, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * A KD-on-hit skill would need such a stupid recharge to prevent abuse, that it won't be used. It's like Smiter's Boon (PvP). It's too strong for PvP, so it got nerfed into uselessness. Think about it; Unsuspecting Strike KDing and dealing 150 damage? Follow up with Falling Lotus Strike, Twisting Fangs... That's three attacks and a boatload of damage. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  19:16, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Not reliable enough to use a Falling skill after it, but also, if that was the case, then why does no one use Mark of Instability? It will turn Twisting into not JUST deep wound, but a KD along with it, and the recharge isn't AWFUL, it's the same as SP was until it (finally) got nerfed. You also brought up a good point that I have brought up many times before: Assassins are impossible to balance. Either they're awesome and completely imba or they do absolutely nothing, and there's no line between the 2, just 1 or the other --Gimmethegepgun 19:26, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Predictability and removability. You need at least one attack prior to TF and actiave TF, which is >2 seconds, before Mark triggers. That is enough time to Holy Veil and cancel. It's much less reliable. And I agree, mostly; Instagib spikes aren't balanced. However, sins pressure nicely. Golden Nippletwister, Wild Strike, Golden Fang Strike, Shattering Assault is quite some pressure. Removes stances, enchantments, 66% unblockable chain (and Guardian cannot block Shat Assault, so gg)... And a DW over Stance Remove if you want. Fallen out of meta, but still not bad. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  19:31, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Spirit Status Monitor
I just noticed that Recuperation now has a working status monitor. Was this fix just slipped in, or has it been there awhile and I overlooked it? Shadowlance 21:27, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Super Woot -- double faction while farming!
Enuff said! GW-Susan 17:30, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Power creep. And I'm only R1 Lux. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 00:44, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Hidden Update?
The Vaettir spot at Jaga Moraine used to have around 50 Vaettirs but now it only has 10? Was this announced somewhere and I missed it or was it a hidden update? &not;Red Shadow♠  14:06, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It's never had 50 for me, always 10. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 14:58, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Depends on wether you're on HM or NM. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  15:00, 30 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Right - NM is 10 individual vaettirs, HM is 60 in groups of 4. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:11, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah...I see what happened. I wasn't in HM... &not;Red Shadow♠ [[Image:Red_Shadow_Sig.jpg|19px]] 16:38, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Well that was common sense but there is an update of some sort seeing as I had to download files and reset my firewall which I have to do every-time an update of patch is released anyone noticed anything different?--Toolbooth death 22:09, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Probably to prepare for Mad King? King Neoterikos 22:12, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It was a Mad King related undocumented update. Maybe someone can add this in the proper format to the article page. 76.87.222.247 06:26, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Pissed was Felix
This is the worst update I've seen in years. They give us one fucking skill balance a month now, and this is IT?! Three crappy blood magic spells and a Ranger stance got nerfed for GvG. Cool. Fucking cool. Shit like this makes me want to play WarHammer. 02:58, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * dito, if warhammers balance wouldnt be even more fucked up (brighwizards hint hint) - its especially ridiculous that they said last month "this update is gonna be small cause we plan for a BIG one next month" and now this is what we got...haha. ....*cough*
 * I suspect they didn't get the big one finished on time, we should probably expect a second update somewhere in november that has changes to PvE titles or associated skills in some way. Ezekiel  [Talk]  03:13, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The title-grind update is scheduled for next week, see here. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 03:24, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Interesting, Lindsey says that they had planned some time ago to delay the title release by a week, yet just the other night Regina Buenaobra posted on guru that title update and z-keys were delayed because of a "critical staff absence." Either they fail at communicating, or one of them is lying, and I'm inclined to think it's Lindsey. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 04:44, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * ANet has a habit of caving in for gud PR [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 04:45, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * That's what Regina's initial post said, but she corrected herself - only the xth rewards were directly affected by the staff absence, and the title updates were planned for next week all along (like Linsey said). &#91;link to thread&#93;  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 05:37, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I kind of agree with you felix, but its better to have few skill buffs/debuffs than to have a lot that piss everyone off ^^ (im still pissed that Anet renerf SF in favor of the assassin...) [[Image:Shogankillername.jpg|x19px]] 01:59, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

its sad that we had to wait for this for like 2 month :/ 80.99.38.8 10:17, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Hm, why were those necro skills (I didn't even use - so I couldn't care less) nerfed for PvE as well? Did some monster-mob complain or is it more a monster-nerf? --Birchwooda Treehug 13:52, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * According to the dev notes (linked in the updates), there was no direct PvE reason, but they felt these changes wouldn't impact PvE very much. It did nerf Angorodons slightly, though, and maybe a few other necromancer monsters.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 14:42, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

If only they would change the functionality of under used skills or do something useful. Silver Sunlight 13:58, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It was changed to nerf bspike, which was a terrible gimmick build which rolled almost everything. It'll still be used, though :( &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 14:46, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Bspike will never die. Well, it will if Anet stops overbuffing blood skills. --Macros 15:35, 7 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Life stealing is now not armor ignoring. Lol, bye Bloodspike. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  16:26, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * *affected by prot skills. It being affected by armour would just mean you can't lolkill the warriors in the opening 2 seconds. Lord of all tyria 17:14, 7 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Read my hidden comment, imo. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  16:19, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Title update
What exactly is this "title update." This is the first time I've heard of it (not that I've really paid any attention to Guild Wars in the past two months). Overlord Stan 15:47, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
 * HoM being account-wide, easier to get grind titles like allegiance, lurz/lux, iirc. Lord of all tyria 15:50, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
 * They're making wisdom and treasure hunter account-wide, too, I believe.  &not; Wizårdbõÿ777  ( talk ) 19:18, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
 * HoM acoutn wide. Does that mean that if sya, my assissin gets sweet thooth, and my warrior gets drunkard, they both show if I enter the hall with a third char? Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 20:29, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Basically, yes.  &not; Wizårdbõÿ777  ( talk ) 21:04, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Lux/Kurz were account-wide already.  But account Treasure/Wisdom will be nice, if they actually change the titles themselves, since I have spare points spread out over a few characters, and it's a pain to keep transferring all the gold items and keys/picks to one an only character to use...  Item Salvage and Lockpick retention bonuses will be nice to share between characters, too. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 19:48, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Can't wait for the update :) Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|19px]] 20:06, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Will the Rainbow Phoenix be account-wide too then? I'm guessing no, as it is dependent on your character's title, not on something you place or record in the hall.  I have mixed feelings about it whichever way Anet goes on it.  On the one hand, I unlocked it for my sin.  Pets don't do Assassins much good at all.  I'd love to have it on my Ranger.  But imagine how common these huge, glowing birds would be if they were account-wide.  Undesirable.  Lazuli  02:08, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It should still be reliant on 10 maxed titles, so I'd agree, no. However, if your Wisdom/Treasure Hunter title was max on your main, it would contribute. Hypothetically, you could have the Rainbow Phoenix on every character if you had maxed all 9 (+2) account based-titles...but good luck with that :/ - [[Image:AdVictoriam1.PNG|19px]] Ad Victoriam  02:19, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Same thing happened to the normal Phoenix as well as the Black Widow, so meh. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 02:26, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm looking forward to having an account-wide Monument of Resilience. I bought five elite sets for my Ritualist just because I wanted to work toward a full HoM even though I really didn't want five armor sets for her.  It would be better to be able to mix characters for that monument, and have five individual characters displayed there. Shadowlance 20:23, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The difference between popularity with the standard phoenix and the black widow is that those aforementioned examples aren't colossal and garishly colored. Individuality wins in the end, though.  I take more notice of a Flamingo or a Hyena than I do of a Rainbow Phoenix when I'm tabbing through targets in AB.  Regardless, I too am looking forward to possibly displaying multiple characters in the armor monument.  There are only so many sets of female assassin armor I can justify buying.  Lazuli  01:22, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Imo they should let you add Starter Armor to the Monument of Resilience, as that is also epic and quite unique. :p And yeah, meeting a giant flamingo mob in AB is pretty epic. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 01:31, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * So the faction grind titles are becoming account-wide, huh? Does this mean my NF necro will get a free ride off my Sunspear Castellan derv for all the quests that require Rank X Sunspear? Qing Guang 03:07, 11 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Wrong. Faction titles (Kurz/Lux) were always account wide.  Other reputation titles, such as Sunspear, are required for completion of primary quests or are otherwise tied into the storylines of the campaigns they are in, so I highly doubt they will ever become account-wide.  Plus, they're not THAT difficult to max, certainly a far cry from Faction or Wisdom/Treasure.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 04:25, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * You're undoubtedly right, but it would still be swell to have Lightbringer shared by account. Sebelkeh would always be a breeze. Lazuli  05:02, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Bother. Well, thanks for clearing that up for me. I was under the impression that ALL the reputation/allegiance/faction titles were going to be account-wide. Qing Guang 15:41, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, technically giving us the option to make HoM account-wide doesn't necessarily require that all reputation titles be account-wide too. For example they could give us the ability to have multiple character statues in the Monument of Resilience, or have weapons customized to multiple characters in the Monument of Valor, while leaving many of the reputation titles (Norn, Asura, etc.) tied to individual characters.  Shadowlance 17:25, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

The only titles I can see being made account-wide are Wisdom and Treasure Hunter, since there was some talk going on about it for a while now, not only between players, but also involving some Anet staff. I don't see where all the reputation talk came from other than that they made it a little easier to get Kurz/Lux points. The rest of the update is supposed to make the HoM account based instead of character based. That's all. RoseOfKali 21:25, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Linsey specifically stated "I have no plans to make any other titles account wide," after explaining how the Treasure/Wisdom titles would be merged.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 21:53, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, okay, that makes more sense. It'll still be good, though. No more "hey guys lemme switch to my rit really quick to ID this gold and see if it's better than what Gwen [or whoever] has got." And I think just between my derv and my necro I've got r1 Treasure Hunter. Yay! Qing Guang 22:59, 11 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I have rank one (or more) on a few characters without ever ferrying things to the "main" character. But i look foward to this update to...
 * One of my allies (that doesn't play GW anymore) replied when we annouced it in our forums : "one day we will be able to create pvp char that will already be Kind Of A Big Deal". His comment chocked some of us... — TulipVorlax 00:48, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Hilarious. --Alf&#39;s Hitman 00:57, 12 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, that's been possible for some time now. In fact, you can create characters that would be "Very Important" at level 1...  If you have no life, that is... RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 22:27, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Updating the Wiki
The update is not yet linkified, I suggest that links are added only to those pages that have already been updated. We can keep track of the update process that way. --◄mendel► 00:36, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

lol
lol update. <font color="#FF44AA">♥ <font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="turquoise">Mis <font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="orange">fate <font color="#FF44AA">♥ 00:39, 14 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I SO AGREE WITH YOU LegendaryWalter 02:46, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I see what they mean by long update notes TwilightRhapsody 04:39, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

New Books problem and kurz/lux faction
Hey, with the new books for all the campaigns I am unable to fill out the books for previously doing the missions (paying for all the pages in the book), and ironically I just finished cantha and tryia prot titles yesterday. Are they going to fix this so people who already did the campaigns dont have to redo them to get the rewards? They did that when they updated the books in EotN, and this is bigger than that, so personnally I think they should. Then on the subject of all the faction we just got, I think its complete BS that we got both kurz and lux faction at the same time, so really you could only benefit from one (when you cash in, it deletes the other) Anet isn't allowing titles to hit favor of the gods for a few days, they could have at least taken out the cancling faction effect for a bit too :S not sure about you guys, but kinda pissed me off... 01:52, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I've seen numerous "X has maxed Y title, ergo increasing the God's favor". It just won't happen for a few days (probably till weekend is over) for Wisdom title. --Alf&#39;s Hitman 02:14, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I think you missed my point on that part[[Image:Shogankillername.jpg|x19px]] 02:53, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Do the missions in Hard Mode. Cress Arvein [[Image:Cress sig.JPG]] 02:16, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * About paying for the pages, Regina mentioned on Guru that they purposely didn't allow it because of hurting the economy. <font color="#FF44AA">♥ <font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="turquoise">Mis <font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="orange">fate <font color="#FF44AA">♥ 02:23, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * ahhh, still kind of aggrivating... [[Image:Shogankillername.jpg|x19px]] 02:53, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Wait a minute, there's an economy still? News to me [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 02:59, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * haha, word to that [[Image:Shogankillername.jpg|x19px]] 03:02, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm personally not doing Tyria again for an 11th time just to fill a book. Honestly, just let us buy the pages. Overlord Stan 03:03, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * In Hard Mode, even. -_- On the other hand, you already got Legendary Guardian title, so that already makes you >>> than some stupid book. (if it was in easy mode, I wouldn't mind - I actually enjoy Prophecies missions, but I just don't redo missions usually since there's no more reward. This would make it worthwhile) [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:07, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually haven't finished a Guardian yet. I can never really stay interested in one character that long. Changing topics, but since I'm getting all of my Luxon/Kurzick faction at once, I'm just going to end up losing about 30k of one side. Way to go Anet. Overlord Stan 03:10, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I lost over 60k thanks to that, lol. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 03:13, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, after going to all my characters, it was closer to 60k. Wish I'd get faction for all the vanquishing I've already done on my warrior. Overlord Stan 03:21, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Once again, I wonder if ANet even knows how their own game works. -_- [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:22, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe they'll fix the "hey, u shud redo the entire storyline 2 get credit" deal before I log in next. And maybe they'll fix the whole "lose half your earned faction" dealie too.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]] Entrea   [Talk]  03:36, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I thought about it overnight and figured that they at least could have let us buy pages that we completed in, lets say, the past month (like I said I just did the entire prot titles for cantha and tyria last week), that way everyone that has done it so recently that it would be torture for them to do the whole thing again could get a book, but not everyone would, and it wouldnt be that devastating to the economy... [[Image:Shogankillername.jpg|x19px]] 12:52, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh come on, like they would even give that much. They probably just threw this in to keep at least the pve players interested until GW2 comes out.76.78.45.165 22:28, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Eh, yeah, I'm kind of annoyed since I just got Canthan Protector on one ele and started pushing the other one through. Really, though, I'm more pissed about the fact that I just got Sunspear Castellan a few weeks ago and now have to do the NF book in Hard Mode if I want to earn rep that way... Oh well, stuff happens. Qing Guang 01:40, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Henchman updates
Awesome--Relyk 03:26, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yay, Odurra joins the bandwagon just in time, since they will be nerfing VoR soon :) Practiced Stance on Aidan is useless, it will conflict with Heket's Rampage, and it is useless anyway (or rather, HE is useless in NF campaign). Reaper's Sweep on Gehraz is nice, though, since he was already a good hench without an elite. WS would still be better, but I believe that's on the to-be-nerfed list too. :) [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:34, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, seriously, Gehraz ROCKED without it, and I even used the exact same build for my Derv heroes (though with Reaper's Sweep thrown on just like he is now) --Gimmethegepgun 04:48, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Balance update? -.-
Title update is okay and all, but when will we finally see some changes to these skills? The ones with an exclamation mark are either so over-/underpowered/abused that they need the most attention, obviously.
 * Shield Bash (!) (AB)
 * Disciplined Stance (AB)
 * Word of Healing (!) (OP)
 * Dark Escape (AB)
 * Visions of Regret (!) (OP)
 * Rending Touch (AB)
 * Shove (UP)
 * Quivering Blade (UP)
 * Signet of Toxic Shock (OP)
 * Augury of Death (OP)
 * Hundred Blades (UP)
 * Quick Shot (UP)
 * Crippling Anguish (UP)
 * Victory is Mine! (UP)
 * Skull Crack (UP)
 * Poison Arrow (UP)
 * Amity (!) (UP)
 * Keystone Signet (UP)
 * Signet of Midnight (AB, unlinked)
 * Whirling Axe (UP)
 * Primal Rage (!) (UP)
 * Auspicious Parry (UP)
 * Archer's Signet (UP)
 * Boon Signet (UP)
 * Ray of Judgment (!) (UP)
 * Word of Censure (UP)
 * Order of Apostasy (UP)
 * Recurring Insecurity (!) (UP)
 * Shared Burden (UP)
 * Shatter Storm (UP)
 * Seeping Wound (!) (UP)
 * Shroud of Silence (!) (UP)
 * Clamor of Souls (UP)
 * Magehunter Strike (UP)
 * Soldier's Stance (UP)
 * Rampage as One (OP)
 * Scribe's Insight (UP)
 * Stone Sheath (UP)
 * Fox's Promise (UP)
 * Wastrel's Collapse (!) (UP)
 * Ebon Dust Aura (OP)
 * Wounding Strike (!) (OP)
 * Onslaught (UP)
 * Distracting Shot (nerf disable to 15 sec honestly imo, or link disable time to Expertise Rank, 4+rank)
 * Fixing Paragon Leadership and restoring Warrior shouts
 * Buffing Spawning Power so N/Rt isn't better
 * Buffing Smiting Prayers by adding conditions and other non-armor-ignoring stuff
 * Fixing Dagger Chains
 * AB = abused - OP = overpowered - UP = underpowered


 * Hear, hear. Though some those without an (!) I can't tell if you mean to say they are good or bad :> [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:48, 14 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm gonna assume you think shield bash and WoH are overpowered because there is no way you could think they are underpowered.Shield bash requires you to have a shield, if your attacking that warrior you SHOULD get punished for it, either by him turning around and slapping you or hitting you with a skill like this and if your going for a monk then having this skill or not wont change a thing for you, seeing as the monk saw you coming and switched to his shield, so he could have just as well gone for prots.What do you want to do with WoH?Change it back to target other ally only?You might as well say to throw it back in the garbage bin.Ow wait... i see you want Distracting shot nerfed to 15 seconds.... nvm I will stop writing now.
 * Warriors never carry Shield Bash, and monks don't "switch" to shields. They start with shield and switch up to energy sets. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 05:56, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * How to fix dshot: Disable duration is now linked to Expertise attribute. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:58, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Shield Bash is neither over nor underpowered it's abused. Fix this STRENGTH skill so it scales 0...10 instead of 5...10 to stop the caster abuse. And no. NO. Prots are not the same. Shield bash is:


 * Instant
 * Can be used while knocked down for whatever reason, it's not even a stance.
 * Completely fucks up all physical attackers and especially assassins (unlinked 15 sec disable to the complete chain? Yeah...) and stops spikes reliably and safely FOR ZERO ATTRIBUTE INVESTMENT
 * No matter with what you attack, even unblockable attacks incur a knockdown and skill disable
 * Solution: Fix it like you did with Disarm and put the duration at 0 STRENGTH to 0 seconds.
 * It's perfectly balanced when used by a warrior who hasn't got any other means of defense other than shield bash and stances.


 * There, went ahead and put tags on it. Also, it's not for me to decide how they nerf Word of Healing, but when one Elite takes prevalence over all others for a specific profession, that isn't good for the game in any way. It's safe to say over 97% of Monks in any form of 4v4 PvP use this elite.
 * Personally I love it. and by that I mean I love Signet of Humility, it's just fantastic in PvP now. <font color=#555>Ezekiel <font color=#AAA> [Talk]  08:33, 14 November 2008 (UTC)


 * And we all know that Anet balances with 4v4 in mind, i had forgotten that.Just because 100% of people playing a class might use a skill in this case WoH does not mean its overpowered,did you ever think that maybe the reason because they use WoH is because its effective?WoH use to be a good skill in PVE before the update mostly because pve is easier and it was a joke in PVP now that it is actually useful people take it in PVP, the problem with WoH is the same problem it had before the update, there are no decent healing elites, the other healing elites should be buffed so they are also viable,not WoH nerfed ,which would result inus not seeing healers in PVP again yet again. Durga Dido 08:43, 14 November 2008 (UTC)


 * @Ezekiel: Good thing you're a mesmer who doesn't have to cope with blocking anyways huh. But not everyone likes to play caster classes, some prefer physical classes, that atm get their own skills like shield bash turned against them.
 * @Durga: Don't find any words to that stupidity really...about 80% of all guild wars players play 4v4s, be it RA, TA or HB or to a certain extent AB (can't influence what the other 8 people bring). WoH is not effective, it's overpowered like mad, and everybody knows it. The Elite Healing prayers all have their value - which goes down to zero as soon as WoH lurks around the corner with it's incredibly overpowered 200+ heal on a wounded target for FIVE energy. Other healing elites don't need buffing, right now a WoH monk can easily outheal TWO physical DPS classes flailing at him and still survive, it's just not right.
 * Hey, hey, hey, NPA, people. And anyway, I don't see anything wrong with either skill. Now, I don't run a melee character in PvP, so I'll let those of you who have them judge Shield Bash, but WoH is fine. I agree with buffing other healing elites rather than nerfing WoH. Some of them do need help, although actually I'm the only person in my guild who runs WoH on my heroes; they all run different (and fairly effective) elites. For PvP: Interrupts are your friends, mate. Get a ranger in there with a shortbow, or a mez running Domination, or even just pack a melee interrupt. 3/4 second casting time? Psh. I can't count the number of monks my mez has destroyed by interrupting the WoH that would have saved their lives. (Power Spike is fun - instead of 200pts healing, take 100pts damage! hehe) Actually, WoH can even be turned against the monk if you hit them with a Power Block. But really, you don't need a mez, just save a skill slot for an interrupt. Qing Guang 15:39, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Random: Signet of Toxic Shock is overpowered??? o_O (T/C) 20:09, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Not many objections to that list, though I don't think Crippling Anguish really needs a buff, it's a pretty good hex, especially in AB. And you forgot 7 seconds of invincible. And as a note about surviving 2 DPS at once, my AWS rit does that all the time in AB AND keeps my teammate (not plural, the 2 random pick-ups usually never stick around, but my friend does) alive at the same time. Against at least half their team. At the rez shrine. When they have control of it. And he still kills people. And I never run out of energy. And some grammarnazi is gonna come kick my ass for murderous sentence fragmentation. PTTP! --Gimmethegepgun 20:18, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * @Entropy: A nonelite that does as much armor ignoring damage as Headbutt or Palm Strike, with a 15 sec CD, fast casting time and no energy cost, which is also affected by Deadly Paradox? And goes on every single A/Me, N/A, A/N Bar with Dancing Crappers, Entangling *Gasp* and Augury of Bad Breath? I tend to say yes.
 * Therefore, buff Headbutt and Palm Strike. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 00:14, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, if you want Assassins to go up to you and touch you for 150-200 damage...I'm rather for nerfing SoTS (which is also ranged btw) to stop the stupid builds with Augury, DD, Asp, SoTS, DD, lolded.
 * Snares say screw that :p SoTS should be more like Signet of Shadows (which needs buff). Another thing is that Asp/Poison is blah without SoTS so in that way it is sort of balanced...take Signet counters, too, that screws you over. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 00:43, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Ultra Woot!!
I love the new ways and amounts to get various faction, especially Luxon/Kurzick! For Vanquishing, however, I have been getting 50 times the number killed, not merely 5 times as per the article (I got just over 20k for doing Rhea's Crater once): Not that I mind! Does anyone suppose this is to get the Hall of Monuments filled in faster in prep for GW II? GW-Susan 06:08, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It's supposed to be 50x for faction; where does it say 5x? [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 06:14, 14 November 2008 (UTC) -- my mistake, misread it!  GW-Susan 15:22, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Vanquishing is actually mildly useful now. Still, power creep and all that; you're probably right that they are trying to make everything super easy just so they can entice people to the HoM (and hence GW2). Silly ANet. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 06:27, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * HFFF is dead now. I can't say I like the new price of jade/amber, but maybe it'll deflate the market a bit. I'm still curious as to what the net effect will be... Renian 13:10, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with raising the price of amber/jadite, but I think it should be at 3k instead of 5k (or they should at least change it when everyone has used up their initial faction spike)... but on that note I think amber/jadite should count 1:2 on the title just like donations or skills, I don't see why they have some stuff 1:1 and some stuff 1:2, it should all be 1:2, espcially with amber/jade, now at their current price... [[Image:Shogankillername.jpg|x19px]] 18:35, 15 November 2008 (UTC)


 * If everything is 1:2, just halve the title req and make it all 1:1. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  20:30, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Aspenwood
Me smells a change in the far future there, as it is very hard for luxons now and the Kurzicks didn't even discover yet that all they have to do is coming as monks and prot the gate(s)/gatekeeper(s) and wait for the timer to end which is too fast now. Or did they already? We just had 3 monks doing that and even with 2 disenchantments necros... no chance. Last night right after the update I lost 5 times in a row too when normally it's 60:40 for Luxons. The timer just runs out too fast. However, even as loser you get the same amount of points out of it (1500) like winning AB (1500) XD and it's shorter than AB. So, my tip for the Kurzicks: Go in as prot/heal combination and just sit it out in safety behind a gate, as long as it is so easy for Kurzicks ;) Guess I'll do that to push my Kurzick title further (as I don't care on which side I fight, as long as the points come in) ^^--Birchwooda Treehug 12:34, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, Kurzicks figured it out, 4 monks on their side XD No chance, takes so awfully long to get through one protted gate that the timer runs out too fast. --Birchwooda Treehug 12:49, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe Luxons will get tired of Aspenwood, and start moving to Jade Quarry? I'd love to see some actual games going live there... --[[image:GEO-logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  14:13, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Indeed, never played a single round there since there isn't anybody XD Played 5 rounds of Kurzick Aspen now and won 4 of them, 10 rounds of Luxon and won 0... 4 times we even had both turtles inside, in front of the broken green gate, but time was too short :/ At least it helps my Kurzick title getting pushed ;) --Birchwooda Treehug 15:13, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I've said it elsewhere, so I will repeat it here--ANET prefers the Kurzicks. In AB, most glitches favor Kurzicks (such as being able to get out gate before timer sets off;  only once or twice have I seen, in AB, that there were 3 Luxon teams and 2 Kurzick teams, but many times have seen only 2 Luxon teams against 3 Kurzicks), and Aspenwood always favored the Kurzicks, as defense is always easier than offense, and in Jade Quarry, the Juggernauts move faster and flip you all over the place.  GW-Susan 15:30, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, for a long time (probably largely because of people not being smart) Aspenwood was won almost exclusively by the Luxons simply because with just the NPCs (yes, someone has to send them, but besides that) the Luxons win. The turtles will blow up gates and then the warriors will all run in and turn the gatekeepers and Gunther into pulp. Eventually it seems that the Kurzicks finally figured out how to beat it (interrupt the turtles, prot the gates, BOTH of which are suggested if you talk to the info guy...) and the Luxons stopped winning all the time --Gimmethegepgun 20:10, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Even with that (you forgot the ambar mining to repair the gates) Aspenwood was still easier for the Luxons, since I played both quite long I knew Luxon was the easy side and when sick of playing easy go to the Kurzicks (more challenge). Then the turtles got a little nerfed because it was too imba, but still I think it was easier for Luxons (had quite some losses too then tho... hard to say the cause, since there were leavers and leechers [on both sides] and often enough the side won who had the least leechers and leavers). Now (well only one day after the update), I have the feeling it's 60:40 Kurzicks and +10% for each monk the Kurzicks have. However Jade Quarry is well visited now again and brings much more than Aspenwood. 3500 for a win, 2200 for a loss and time ~10 min (Aspenwood ~13 min). =) --Birchwooda Treehug 21:55, 14 November 2008 (UTC)


 * i went to jade quarry but i found 1 guy grumbling about cartography and that was it. what time was it when you got in? LongCat 23:30, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I've only ever been in quarry for cartographer. But I think the default layout for the npc spawns slightly favors Luxons. Though, idk for sure since everyone was from the same alliance and only brought running skillz. xD --72.220.202.62 00:15, 15 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Last night it was 6 rounds (5 won - luxon) around midnight and 1 a.m. (GMT+1, or 7 p.m. US east coast time). I was there with 5 others from my guild and we started simultaneous to get in the same team, worked only once tho (to get all 5 in one team, mostly it was just 2-3), but unlike Aspenwood we rarely had to wait for countdown-resets. I guess the amount of Kurzicks and Luxon playing was quite even then. I hope more ppl play there since I prefer more points in shorter time XD Even now there are ppl (only checked German and US district). --Birchwooda Treehug 11:01, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Jade quarry is an entirely symmetrical map, evenly balanced on both sides. I've played it 67 times to date and found it to be the best of the two. It doesn't favor melee combat at all, and rewards playing smart. Taking out the ranger points is key because they destroy the carriers, traps work well, speed boosting the carriers is another fun trick. The map is solely dependent upon the players after the initial claiming of mines, after that is a battle for the mines, ranger points and killing/keeping the carries alive. It's also bug free, and has been since factions was released. (the bug long ago was being able to take a ranger point while still in the base because of how close it was, not a bug just playing smart) Come play quarry after reading its wiki page and/or talking to the npc and you'll be amazed. 68.47.192.6 06:00, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * "Rewards playing smart" hm I thought of it as quite chaotic and simple, the only strategy was shrine capping (every now and then we killed a juggernaut when it crossed our sight), so we all were capping eles that can solo kill a shrine and all we did was run around and cap, very much like bk just without much teamplay XD --Birchwooda Treehug 11:01, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

No filling in pages for missions prior to this update?!
So I have 10 characters, one for each class. I've almost completed all 4 campaigns with all 10 characters. I just did my 7th completion of Nightfalls 2 days ago. I'm not a farming player, so I don't have a lot of maxed titles (well, just 1). This whole update looked great, until I realized that I'm not getting an option to fill in mission books for previously completed missions.

Are you sh!tting me?!

So if I want the progress in titles due those characters, I need to go back and replay all of those missions all over again?! Why have I bothered putting much time into Guild Wars if the new stuff isn't going to apply to me??? If points can be added to titles retroactively for quest and mission rewards, I sure as hell ought to be able to get a book out of this.

Do you know how many hours towards titles I won't get back from this? I'll be damned if I'm starting everything all over again. A-Net, -please- tell me this is a bug, and not be design. I can't imagine that you would -choose- to throw away the time so many have spent on this game! (in so far as it relates to title progress) Cocytus 17:06, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Hm, I've 10 chars too (all profs) and except Ritu that needs the Asura story arc and my monk that needs 1/4 Factions, are all through too. And actually it wouldn't come to my mind that we get the chance for already filled books, heck I'm even glad that all the done missions already counted for the Luxon/Kurzick/Sunspear/Lightbringer points and I don't have to do that again (on the other hand, I had to waste a lot of Kurzicks points now, which I'd have not done if the new extra points were not given already). The books now are a possibility to collect faction points. Instead of looking in the past and seeing what's "lost", look in the future and see the new possibilities to push the title faster. BTW, Jade Quarry gets you lots of points now too. So, my main char has 24 titles max now and left is now either Luxon, Zaishen, Wisdom or Treasure Hunter. Of course if I was to complain about ANet not giving credits when inventing sth new then I'd whine about the lost possibility for the survivor title (all core professions were created way before the titles things and ofc died countless times already)... as that title would fit perfectly to a God among mere mortals too ;) And compared to the other left titles it is easy to reach (my 2nd title char has it). Or the Ascalon Defender title (ok I'd have never bothered with sth that time consuming, but still... I want to have the option to choose ;). Or think of the cartographers that bothered with the title long before Texmod and before the Hard Mode and the vanquisher title (I could do both at the same time, combined). Or how many times have I done Hell's Precipice - just to have to do it again with all chars (which I couldn't be arsed with yet) to get this new amulet (or what it's called). And omg, how many times have I done Aspenwood in the past, there was a time I played it like obsessed - I think my first 200k Luxon points just came from it XD And now you get so much rewards for it - where's my credid for all the done rounds? ;) So keep cool, it actually is pretty normal. --Birchwooda Treehug 17:50, 15 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The other option ANet had was to allow that and nerf favor. That'd have been worse, I believe. --◄mendel► 18:09, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I already brought this topic up about 3-4 things above this one and the answer i got was it would have ruined the in-game economy [[Image:Shogankillername.jpg|x19px]] 19:35, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * How would that ruin the economy? Many Kurzicks botted their (hfff) way up to max. rank. Even the books with credits from past missions couldn't do that unless you've done each mission 100 times. --Birchwooda Treehug 23:35, 15 November 2008 (UTC)


 * "So if I want the progress in titles due those characters, I need to go back and replay all of those missions all over again?!" No.  "I can't imagine that you would -choose- to throw away the time so many have spent on this game!"  They wouldn't, and they didn't.  Not sure what you're talking about.  Reread the update notes, there's nothing there about taking away any of the points you earned previously, nor did they change the requirements for the titles, so the achievements you made still count towards the titles as much as they ever did.  Not sure what you're on about... --76.113.200.14 20:19, 15 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Scrooge Was Right... --Dreamsmith 21:09, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeahp. People are whiny. My main issue with this complaint is that if you think all the time you spent playing the game was "wasted" because you didn't get progress towards a title, WHY are you playing Guild Wars? Go play a normal grind MMO, or stop griping. Qing Guang 21:56, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The new books don't do anything towards a new title, only would have helped you towards old ones. Kurz/Lux was retroactively awarded (albeit in a dumb way), Wisdom and Treasure Hunter are account wide, and it takes <1 day to complete any given campaign (if you're good). I think it's slightly ridiculous that you can't get pages for the hardmode missions (after all, who would ever want to do those twice?), though. HM Eternal Grove again, anyone? -_- [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 22:13, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Luckily, I just completed EG HM, so it's in my book. but yeah.... *shudders* --JonTheMon 22:17, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, the least they could have done is give the people with the protector/guardian titles maybe 1 or 2 freebies. I've gotta agree with Entropy though, not even faction is worth the effort to redo some of those missions in HM. --72.220.202.62 00:50, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Hadn't thought of that, using the guardian or protector titles would be a good and easy way to reward some people, though it still would be annoying for people who had done all bar one mission on HM. <font color=#555>Ezekiel <font color=#AAA> [Talk]  02:04, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * How bout this: When you obtain Guardian or Protector, you automatically get a completely full book (not fill up one you have, GIVE you a book that is completed once you have inventory space for it). For those who already have it, give em one, anyone who gets the title later gets a book too --Gimmethegepgun 02:17, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * That at least seems reasonable and certainly technically doable. I just have more of an issue with the people who are complaining that all their time and efforts have been wasted because they didn't get retroactive rewards. I'm sorry, but isn't the purpose of the game for fun? If all that time they spent is no longer fun because people enjoying the game now get title points for it, they have a problem. Qing Guang 05:37, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * On teh other hand, if you *just* finished Legendary Guardian/Protector for every continent like the week before the update, I think you'd be mad as hell :p [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 09:06, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Like those ppl who recently paid ~90 € for all GW campaigns and just the other week the Complete Collection got released (all GW for 35 €) *laff* --Birchwooda Treehug 16:51, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, the Young Heroes Handbook or w/e it's called isn't too bad. But the early Ascalon missions can get tedious at times. :( --72.220.202.62 23:50, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Hidden Agenda?!
I think I know the purpose behind teh Summoning Stones! It's to inflate the price of Monstrous Eyes and Bone to respectable level again! XD

On a side note, Granite Slab is ridiculously expensive now; it was already high before update. -_- (T/C) 09:18, 16 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm so glad I already bought those 10 stacks of Granite for my HoM back when I did. Iirc, it was 7k per stack back then. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  11:04, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm so glad I salvaged like 30 Ruby Mauls while kegging Vaettir. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 00:00, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * 1. Old Ascalon.
 * 2. Hard Mode.
 * 3. Hulking Stone Elementals.
 * 4. ???
 * 5. PROFIT!!!
 * --Alf&#39;s Hitman 00:28, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks like it's time to run Arborstone a few more times, hehe. Lots of granite + increased gem drops = yay! Qing Guang 01:20, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not that it's hard to find Granite, but it's like the demand just keeps going up and up, and no one is out there farming Granite just to sell it. Anyway, I can report that Monstrous Eyes have recovered a little, coz instead of costing 100, they are like ~260 now. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:17, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, the eyes used to sell for 100, but cost 200, so they only gained 60g... RoseOfKali 03:55, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Good for people like me, I've been getting eyes for some time now, but never used em. Wouldn't sell em either just because they were worthless.  Least they may have some use now for some small amount of cash.  [[Image:RHSig.jpg]] talk 03:35, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

books.
I just got my factions book, and i had already completed factions quite some time ago. I tried talking to the poet again to get my book filled out to no avail. is this a glitch or am i talking to the wrong person?
 * Unlike the EotN books, you cannot pay to fill the book (if previously completed). ANet has said this is because of the impact it would have on the economy. Supervillain-ToX 16:14, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * oh, alright... thanks... 24.144.209.95 16:20, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Economy? lulz --Gimmethegepgun 00:22, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, Puh-leaze.  [[Image:RHSig.jpg]] talk 03:37, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Xunlai Tournament House changes the economy more than this would xD, but they said it not me :P Supervillain-ToX 20:33, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The damage to the economy has already been done. --72.220.202.62 07:50, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I have a good idea - don't allow PvE only skills to be used in Elite areas. :P [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 12:21, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

You're telling them to take away my Necrosis and Pain Inverter? HOW DARE YOU???!!! Are you then going to tell me to MM through DoA? RoseOfKali 17:14, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Necrosis needs to be worked into a non-PvE skill in Soul Reaping, because Necro kinda needs direct damage for a few places. Pain Inverter is Spoil Victor on crack. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 17:18, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Discord? --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  17:20, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Discord is a bitch to set up and maintain properly, plus it is just inferior to Necrosis in like...all the ways that matter. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 17:30, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

A really weird thing
Okay, so after the faction update, I turned in all my Kurz faction, leaving about 600pts left and getting rid of all my Luxon faction. Yesterday I logged on and I had about 9k Kurzick faction and 6k Luxon faction! I donated and bought a skill with my Kurz, leaving 1k and getting rid of the Luxon faction again. Today I logged on and my faction was at 19k Kurz and precisely 15k Luxon... I haven't done anything that earns me faction in the past two days; I've been working on Proph. So what's going on? (Not that I'm complaining, mind you) Qing Guang 22:10, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Have you been logging on as diff charas?--[[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg]]<font color="Black">îğá†ħŕášħ 22:12, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah sorry just realized that. I had the same thing over wisdom earlier today. Haha more proof I can't just skim update logs. Qing Guang 22:15, 18 November 2008 (UTC)