Talk:Fort Aspenwood (mission)

Look, I don't know from planning the pages, but as someone who just wants to know how to get here, that information would be helpful to have on the wiki.

Planning Competitive Missions
Okay, we need to figure out how we are going to page Competitive Missions. Right now we have this page, which seems to be a mission overview for both of the sides. We should have a location page. And then there is a quest page. IMO, Fort Aspenwood should be the strategy mission overview page as it is now. Fort Aspenwood (Luxon) and Fort Aspenwood (Kurzick) should be the location pages, because in-game that's what their names are. Otherwise we would have Fort Aspenwood (Luxon)(Location). The quests to get there, if the name of the quest is just Fort Aspenwood, should be Fort Aspenwood (Luxon Quest). What are others' thoughts? --Ravious 22:33, 28 March 2006 (CST)


 * I'm in favour of moving this page to Fort Aspenwood (Mission), putting both the quest and the location in the Fort Aspenwood (Luxon) and Fort Aspenwood (Kurzick) pages as different sections and making Fort Aspenwood a disambiguation page. -- Gordon Ecker 08:01, 5 April 2006 (CDT)


 * Here are the policies we've followed before:
 * a) If a mission and alocation share the same name, the mission gets the unparenthesized (is this english?) name. Location gets the (Location) qualifier.
 * b) If two things have the same name, in this case, the quest and the location since they both have (Luxon) or (Kurzick), then we could eithe qualify both, or just qualify one and leave the other unqualified. This is what I did, I left the location unqualified (because I think it's what players will look for more often) while I qualified the quest. I don't care if people wish to qualify both.
 * c) With regards to the mission, it is an issue because this mission is greatly different than Jade Quarry where both sides are essentially doing the same thing. Here, each side is doing their own thing (attacking vs defending). But I thikn just having the article split into two major sections one for each side is enough.
 * --Karlos 11:15, 5 April 2006 (CDT)


 * I'm not sure what, if anything, the article naming guidelines say, but nearly every article in Category:Missions has the (Mission) qualifier. Anyway, I'm in favour of keeping both sides of a competetive mission on the same page, since most of the information, particularly strategic information, is relevant to players on both sides. -- Gordon Ecker 13:20, 6 April 2006 (CDT)
 * So did we decide to leave the mission page at Fort Aspenwood and not Fort Aspenwood (Mission)? If so, I'll change the links on the Canthan mission page. --Chrono traveller 09:24, 1 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Simple, unlike the rest of the missions in factions, Fort Aspenwood does not double as an explorable area. So it does not need a qualifier. --Draygo Korvan 09:59, 1 June 2006 (CDT)

Refined Amber
What dies Refined amber do? (Not Raw amber)
 * I believe they have the same function --Chrono traveller 10:51, 5 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Refined amber given to gunther gives a +4% progress buff instead of +2%, it however does the exact same thing when given to the gatekeepers. --Draygo Korvan 12:47, 5 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Interesting, I had not paid much attention to it. Is there just a possibility of picking it up at anytime? or is it every nth amber piece is refined?--Chrono traveller 13:57, 5 June 2006 (CDT)
 * The center mine always has refined and the two on the sides always have raw. --68.142.14.97 14:33, 5 June 2006 (CDT)

Mission Mechanics (Kurzick side)
Since I have been mostly playing a healing rit (trying to keep the NPCs alive), can anyone clarify some specifics that would be useful to add to the article.
 * How exactly do gate locks function? After you take a gate down, must amber be taken through for the gate to be put back up?
 * Is there anyway to get between the gates, besides using a gate lock?
 * Probably should be added to the strategy section, but a monk camped out behind a gate keeping the NPCs alive is a great tactic for keeping the gate up.--Chrono traveller 09:24, 1 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Last time I played with them, the gates can be opened and closed by the Kurzick at any time, so long as they are still functioning. Just hit the switch to open/close it.
 * The only way to get through the gates is teleporting or walking through them. Unless your team is doing amber runs, be sure to close them behind you.
 * A very good tactic is to get a ranger with a longbow up on one of the side hills, and ping away at a turtle. If you bring a few interrupts, wear the +fire armor and have some method of self healing and blind removal, you can keep a turtle from ever firing it's cannon, and with a little luck you can actually kill it. You need the longbow so that you can fire from outside of the aggro range of the warriors.
 * Another thing to mention from the Kurzick side: If you can't keep at least one turtle from firing, and preferably both, you'll never win. The map is heavily Luxon biased, so it requires a lot of teamwork from the Kurzick side to win. LordKestrel 11:25, 1 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Apparently there is no need to close a gate behind you unless there is a real danger of some closeby enemy running through it; a gate will close automatically after a few seconds (as long as any of its NPCs are still alive, of course). --Noobus 14:59, 27 June 2006 (CDT)


 * There is a difference between an open gate and a broken gate; open up the minimap with "U" and you'll see what i mean.--69.114.157.75 17:53, 14 January 2007 (CST)

Redesigned Layout
I'm trying to revise the layout of the article, I'd appreciate it if anyone would give me some comments on what to change on the discussion page for User:Chrono_traveller/Fort Aspenwood. Any advice is appreciated. Implemented.--Chrono traveller 09:45, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

Faction Points
Does anyone have insight into what the formula for faction you receive? For the Kurzick side, I seem to get 600 points for victory, plus some more for something (maybe the amber you turned in?). My guess is that it is determined by how much of the Vengence you build. I.e. halfway to completion will get you 1/2*(600) faction. Any one have further thoughts on this? --Chrono traveller 10:51, 5 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I've wondered this myself. Sometimes I've gotten 4*percentage for losing at Kurzick and sometimes other values which weren't integer multiples.  There might be some cutoffs like 0-25% is worth 2*percentage, and 75-99% is 4*percentage.  I don't know about points over 600 being for turning in amber.  Maybe.  --68.142.14.92 17:38, 6 June 2006 (CDT)

Repairing the green gate
While playing on the Luxon side I've seen the green gate be repaired. I haven't tried very hard, but I couldn't figure out how to do it whenever I was playing Kurzick. I tried giving both refined and raw amber to each of the three NPCs with no luck. I think I've seen it be repaired while not all of the other four gates were up, so I don't think that's it. Asking in game never gets an answer. Anyone happen to know? --68.142.14.92 17:38, 6 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Another question I'd really like an answer to. I'd like to just reiterate how, again, this shows how poorly documented this game is.  A quick little howto readme would have been nice before shoving people virtually clueless into a mission like this. --Chrono traveller 17:58, 6 June 2006 (CDT)
 * When you give amber to one of the gatekeepers, the innermost gate will be repaired. If the green gate is open, it will always be repaired first, then the inner orange/purple, then the outer gates. 84.145.218.61 06:48, 17 June 2006 (CDT)
 * I have most definitely done this with all gates down and ended up repairing orange or purple. I haven't actually played Aspenwood in weeks, so either it's not that simple or it's been changed.  --68.142.13.99 07:05, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * The answer is in Refined Amber Chunk. It has not been incorporated into this article yet. --Karlos 15:15, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Is that really the answer? I've only ever carried raw amber in that mission and have been able to repair green the with raw.  However this is not always the case, because, frustratingly, the green door won't always repair with raw.   Perhaps there is a bug here, or specific timing is required for the raw to be used to fix green. --Aspectacle 19:13, 19 June 2006 (CDT)


 * When I was trying to figure out how to do it, I handed all three people one raw and one refined each, ever handoff occuring while all the gates were down. I didn't try repeating any of the tests.  Handing amber to the architect only increased the percentage and handing it to the others only repaired a single purple or orange gate.  It's not very helpful to make conjectures about the nature of a bug, so I'll guess that perhaps you need to hand the architect enough pieces?  --68.142.14.3 04:30, 20 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I'll stop monking in the mission and try doing some more amber running instead. Your theory on the number of chunks required sounds good.  Perhaps a gate keeper will repair the green gate if their side is fully repaired first? I was able to repair green by talking to a gate keeper with the raw chunk, unfortunately I cannot recall the exact gate configuration. --Aspectacle 17:18, 20 June 2006 (CDT)


 * To repair the Green gate you don't need Refined amber any raw Amber will do however the gatekeepers won't accept the amber if there are luxons in the innermost keep near radik To repair the Green gate give the Raw amber to either gatekeeper. (Ps I'm not sure if the juggnaught respawns with regular amber.


 * This wasn't true when I was playing. The green gate wasn't repaired with Raw Amber Chunks. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 09:24, 27 August 2006 (CDT)

The green gate is always repared if you bring a refined amber chunk to a gatekeeper and the green gate is destroyed. If it's still intact, the refined amber chunk will work as a raw one. -- (talk) 16:53, 19 August 2006 (CDT)

The green gate is repaired and all the gate NPC will spawned with the gate, that is the 3 Kurzick NPC(if i remeber correctly, its 2 Mesmer + 1 Elementalist) + the Juggnaught. But repairing the green gate is a bit tricky. First only Gatekeeper will repair green gate, doesn't matter who is it, if enemy is in their aggro range, they won't accept any amber to reapir gate, be it Raw or Redefined. Hence, the green gate will be gone most of the time when it is breached, the only time when the green gate can be repaired is the moment when the green gate is breached. When the green gate is nearly breached, tell the amber runner to NOT repair gate and get another runner to get extra amber. Then when the green gate is breached, immediately hand over the amber piece to repair the green gate. I've try that many time and im not a fan of attacking the command point and center mine, so i know that a Raw Amber can repair the gate. --Cwingnam2000 09:34, 27 August 2006 (CDT)

My memory is a bit fuzzy, as it's been a long time since playing this on the Kurzick side, but I could've swore that I was able to consistently repair the Green Gate by giving Master Architect Gunther Raw Amber Chunks, with the other Gatekeepers killed. I know it sounds crazy, but... I don't know. I'll have to test this eventually. DancingZombies 18:04, 11 October 2006 (CDT)

I've played this mission a ton of times as Kurzick. Here is how repairing Green works: Just give any amber piece to the gatekeepers when green is down. As said, you cannot repair when the keepers are in battle. When the gatekeepers are dead, there is no way to repair the gates. Giving amber to the architect will not repair the green gate, it gives only progress on the bar. The best way to repair green is to wait inside at the green gate with a piece of amber. Watch the health bars of the green gate NPC's and stand next to the gatekeepers when green is about to break. If it breaks, immediately hand the keeper an amber piece. It can be advised to instruct your team members to keep the gate closed when under attack, I've often seen the the game lost because someone was stupid enough to let the Luxons in.

Mission objectives?
It seems that there is only one essential mission objective for either side -- the completion (100%) of the Gods' Vengeance weapon (for Kurzicks) vs. assassinating Master Architect Gunther (for Luxons). The other mission objectives listed for either side are rather means of accomplishing the above goals or speeding up the process, but they are not mandatory. For example, it seems that it is not necessary to give amber to Gunther in order to have the weapon completed eventually, as there is a built-in timer that will advance the completion percentage slowly (1% every several seconds) with or without amber. Giving amber to Gunther just accelerates the process (+2% for each raw amber chunk, +4% for each refined chunk). As such, there is no need to "Capture the Luxon Positions", although it would surely help if at least one amber mine is captured. Theoretically, Kurzicks would win even if they never leave the fort but just focus on a totally passive defense, keeping Master Architect Gunther from dying long enough -- for the weapon completion to reach 100%.--Noobus 15:33, 27 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I've been intending to copy the exact wording from the game, but (at least for the Kurzick side) 3 mission objectives are listed when you start the mission are roughly what are listed on the page. The whole reason for the victory condition and defeat condition label is just that, to precisely state when victory or defeat is obtained (which is not specifically stated in game).  If you want to change the layout to reflect that, I'd be open to it.  But I strongly believe that the mission objectives stated in the game should be reflected in the article in some way, shape, or form. --Chrono traveller 09:59, 28 June 2006 (CDT)
 * I understand your intentions and now I see that you were certainly correct in formulating those objectives as they are in the game. I guess my comments were rather trying to add to the understanding of the mechanics of this competitive mission, as it is a very complex and puzzling one for newcomers (especially on the Kurzick side).--Noobus 15:53, 28 June 2006 (CDT)
 * I agree, ArenaNet did a horrible job (aka none at all) preparing newcomers to this type of mission. I intended the General Mechanics section to help newcomers with what does what in this mission.  Maybe victory/defeat conditions should be moved to the General Mechanics section?  or maybe have their own section?  Noone chimed in when I was making the layout of this page, so I'm sure that the layout has room for improvement.--Chrono traveller 17:13, 28 June 2006 (CDT)
 * The structure is fine, the content is pretty complete. Consider a lead in paragraph at the top of the page giving an overview of Aspenwood the mission. You can state the objective of both teams (like: the kurzicks must protect Gunther from the attacking Luxons so he can complete the super weapon) as the first thing someone sees coming to the page.  I'm a big fan of words and context, are you intending to flesh out some of sections to be more than just points? --Aspectacle 00:13, 29 June 2006 (CDT)


 * And back to the left, maybe some kind of introduction paragraph would be a good thing. Probably put it inbetween the description and general mechanics.  I am really busy with work these days, so it probably won't be me, but I'm sure one of you guys can have a go at it. --Chrono traveller 09:16, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

Two Instance Total?
I'm in Fort Aspenwood at the moment, and people there are convinced that there can only be two instances of Fort Aspenwood running at any given time. This just seems absurd...but everyone thought it was true. Now I think it was just because the Luxon side was more populated than the Kurzick side at the moment. --Chris Burnham 11:32, 20 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I think you're right. I'm sure that more than 2 are possible, it's just that there aren't usually enough active people to play.  I've stopped playing myself even though I've really enjoyed them in the past.  I'm sick of being on a Kurzick team with 3 leechers and a leaver each time. Bleh. --Aspectacle 19:39, 25 July 2006 (CDT)

I haven't actually been to the Kurzick side of this mission, so I was wondering whether or not it is populated at all, considering that I've had to wait through 18 timers before on the Luxon side without getting a mission. Do the Kurzicks just not participate much in these missions, or is the two instance total correct (if it is due to lack of enthusiasm on the Kurzick side, I hope that a bunch of them are waiting to get into the Jade Quarry, since I have yet to see 8 Luxons there, ever (which is kind of sad, since I want to at least try it once)). VegJed 22:44, 28 July 2006 (CDT)
 * It's gotten to be rather lightly populated, mainly because Anet still refuses to add an option for teams to vote to kick AFK players, replacing them with a waiting player. The Kurzicks were winning about one in twenty battles due to half their team always being AFK bots. It's why I and every other Kurzick player I know started doing Alliance Battles instead. I have a page of my site devoted to recording screenshots of every single AFKer I find there, the only reason I ever do Aspenwood now is to spend half an hour there collecting a dozen new names to report to Anet. Sunyavadin 05:56, 29 July 2006 (BST)
 * Yeah, that's also why I play the Kurzick side less and less these days. No one can win all the time, but it's getting quite tiresome to lose over and over again because two or more people in your team are standing there AFK, leeching what little faction they get after a painful loss. -dominique 02:43, 29 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm not sure what to think. I was on the kurzick side earlier and there were a ton of people there, and someone said luxon was the same way, yet it took several rounds to get in. If there really is a two-instance limit, that is just lame. Not to mention results in more AFK people in there since they get tired of waiting... -Miral 03:32, 10 April 2007 (CDT)

EoE imbalance
Besides leeching and the occasional saboteurs (yes, /votekick is sorely needed in this mission), I know quite a few people (including myself) who are starting to lose interest in playing this mission on the Kurzick side due to EoE bombing being such a sure&easy win for the Luxons. The Luxons already had the upper hand here with the powerful attacks of the Siege Turtles, etc. now the EoE bombs make it even easier for them to win without having to bother to fight the Green gate's defenses or other players. Thanks to the huge range of the Spirit of Extinction, Gunther can be killed without actually "playing" the game at that stage -- just drop the spirit and wait for a few NPCs to kill each-other there.. Which will eventually kill Gunther. This is really unfair and ruining the fun of the PvP aspect of this mission. There is no skill involved in this strategy (what, encouraging a suicide bomber's mentality?), and it is unfair because dropping a spirit that recklessly kills every human in the area can make one team win just because the essential NPC of the other team is also killed by such a remote, mindless/suicidal mass-bombing. -Noobus 11:43, 3 August 2006 (CDT)
 * granted it's a bit unfair, but the counter is simple, kill the EoE spirit. this whole mission is a bit unfair, since to win the kurzicks must defend everything, and the luxons need only kill one NPC. complaining about a specific strategy here is a bit pointless, since we have no control over what skills randoms bring into the fight. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 11:54, 3 August 2006 (CDT)
 * it seems that more and more R/x or x/R luxon players have begun to choose (not so "randomly") to exploit this non-playing strategy and bring EoE in this mission.. Killing the EoE is not a quick nor an easy counter to this exploit - until you locate the spirit and reach it in the heat of the battle the bomb may still go off -- and if you do manage to kill it in time they'll just set it up again. It would have made more sense to at least make Gunther unaffected by this when any other human/NPC dies outside the Green gate - either make him another "kind" (species) of NPC or at least place him farther in the back, outside the spirit range. - Noobus 12:28, 3 August 2006 (CDT)
 * This is where you now bring Spirit Walk and Consume Soul. Granted it requires the odd combination of A/Rt or Rt/A and uses up the elite slot, but it doesn't get better for hunting and destroying enemy spirits. Unnatural Signet can be used to kill them off quickly too. --Thervold 13:04, 3 August 2006 (CDT)
 * no worries, keep wnjoying the game. EoE is nice and unchaotic now. :) --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 06:13, 19 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Alas, even without EoE the map is too heavily biased to be much fun. -- [[Image:Bishop_icon2.png]] Bishop [ rap|con ] 07:37, 19 August 2006 (CDT)


 * imbalanced my butt. ive defeated an entire luxon team just using life bond, life barrier, balthazars spirit, dwaynas kiss, healing seed, divine internetnion, heal other (for emergancies), and heal area (self heal). just bond up a kurzick npc at a green gate, and sit, spam dwaynas kiss as the health gets low. Detraya fullvear


 * I've won most of my matches on both sides. It's a bit easier to win with the Luxons, and the game is usually a lot shorter if you win with Luxons as the Kurzicks need to wait the full time to win. Therefor aquiring Luxon faction is a lot faster. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 16:56, 19 August 2006 (CDT)


 * The bond strategy only works as long as there's no ranger on the Lux side that brings the two anti-enchant spirits. Which they do, of course. But the major imbalance to the map is the one Gem mentions: winning as Kurzicks requires a full cycle, winning as Lux only requires the Kurz to drop the ball once. It is a major flaw in the map design. -- [[Image:Bishop_icon2.png]] Bishop [ rap|con ] 09:50, 27 August 2006 (CDT)

Not to mention that the Luxon get 100(or 80) faction per gates break but Kurzick gets Faction per God's Vengeance. Most of the lose i get 400 Luxon faction at the end(not counting the killing points) on luxon side but only around 100 - 300 at Kurzick. --Cwingnam2000 10:08, 27 August 2006 (CDT)

A bug
There is a bug in the mission. I do not know how to trigger it, but on one instance the Kurzick Necromancers followed our amber carriers to the green gate in the beginning. Then they were unable to get back to their position and the Luxons couldn't kill them to open the gate. It was an easy win as the Luxons just stood there trying to figure it out. -- (talk) 16:59, 19 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I think the reason is that Necromencer is trying to buff the runner with Death Nova because of Low Health. This is not a bug but poor AI. It dont happen normally, but i think its when a bunch of Kurzick running Amber, and all of them are at Low Health, the Necromencer is unable to buff them all while they are running past them, so he tried to chase the group to buff the runner And it cause the Necor mencer to stay inside the gate. Its the same when people opened the green gate and the gatekeeper went outside of the gate to fight Luxon or when a Luxon try to sneak past the gate and the Juggie went inside the Green gate. --Cwingnam2000 09:41, 27 August 2006 (CDT)
 * So is it possible to get someone with BiP or similar to pull the necros far behind the gates and get them to stay there? Has someone tried that? -- Bwahahaha
 * Nice idea. Try it sometime. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 16:18, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I tried it with BiP and Contemplation of Purity (to remove Death Nova quickly)- but can't seem to do it, they appear to move a bit. I think my high ping makes it harder (don't see them move/cast till its too late) - probably easier if someone helps to keep the gate open too. Someone with a good low ping connection should try it. I think it could be possible.


 * The exploit mentioned here is now a fairly common tactic for the kurzick side.Mercurius Ter Maxim 23:36, 25 July 2007 (CDT)

Something similar happened today with the luxon priests. They lured them from their command points to the green gate. They should do something with that AI. -Khan Reaper Kerensky 17:32, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

As a monk on the Kurzicks, I had to fall back to the green gate when both sides were breached. Then we got extremely lucky. A Luxon ele used an aoe damage spell, I believe Fire Storm or Breath of Fire, on the NPCs outside of the green gate, causing them to scatter. I had also noticed that a Kurzick opened the green gate. I was outside the green gate, and ran inside to close it. I believe one mesmer NPC and one ele NPC ran behind the gate, but by the time I closed the gate only the ele was behind the gate. Long story short, the luxons were very angry >=)

PvP-only Access
The PvP-only character access is still present, even though the weekend event is over. Anything saying PvP-only access is here to stay? --8765 23:20, 23 August 2006 (CDT)


 * They never said it wasn't there to stay. I would think they're keeping it in. -- [[Image:Bishop_icon2.png]] Bishop [ rap|con ] 09:51, 27 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Now that it's the following year, needless to say, confirmation is here. Ta-Daa! Ut's still here.--69.114.157.75 18:01, 14 January 2007 (CST)

Troop layout map
http://gw.gamewikis.org/images/b/bb/FortAspenwoodmap.PNG I made this map to give conformation of where Kurzick NPC's are and how they spawn. This should clear up some confusion on what respawns where. Ansi 14:35, 7 September 2006 (CDT)

Help
im kinda of a nub factions wise...how do i get here? can i bring a pvp char here some how? plz help Echo ftw 01:04, 21 January 2007 (CST)


 * As for how to get here with a PvE character, consult the Maps. For a PvP character, there is a Luxon Diplomat at the Great Temple of Balthazar who will transport your character to Aspenwood if you ask. Arshay Duskbrow 06:59, 27 January 2007 (CST)

Hard Mode?
I got in one game and it had the Hard Mode icon in the status area. Of course you can't select modes in the mission outpost itself, so I'm guessing somebody's PvE character was set to hard mode when they were in the Aspenwood Gate. The question is: does it affect anything such as NPC levels, or is it just a plain and simple glitch that does nothing? &mdash; Lunarbunny 03:37, 13 May 2007 (CDT)
 * It doesn't do anything to the NPCs or the layout of the map, you do however get +50% more xp. Too bad that doesn't work for factions also.  69.119.121.133 00:05, 21 May 2007 (CDT)

As far as I can tell, the turtles are a different level in hard mode, I remember them being 24 in NM and they're definitely 26 in HM. Thats the only difference I've noticed and if so thats heavily biased in favor of the luxons.
 * Shock, a change that makes it harder for the Kurzick and easier on the Luxons?! That never happens!67.171.228.213 20:16, 7 June 2007 (CDT)

% Timer
During a couple times on the Kurzick side waiting by a gatekeeper for the gate to be breached, I've timed how long it takes to go up 1% on its own. Each time was about 10 seconds, so without giving amber to Gunther, it would take the Kurzick side 16.66 minutes to win. -- Tsukan 13:42, 16 June 2007 (CDT)

Luxon Warrior Glitch
Added note about Luxon Warrior glitch on article (after a few screw ups, boy am I off today). Rephrase if needed. The bug started happening more often after Anet's 'AI improvement' on the Goon Squad. --NYC Elite 22:12, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Yay!!! As if the Luxons didn't have a hard time already. The Hobo 23:12, 23 June 2007 (CDT)
 * And they still didn't fix it in the update. Sad, sad, sad. --[[Image:Roland_icon.png]]Roland of Gilead (talk) 17:48, 18 July 2007 (CDT)

No more Siege Attack?
Tell me it ain't so! --Roland of Gilead (talk) 19:22, 17 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Odd, I don't think Anet fixed this glitch completely. I just went through a game in FA an hour ago, the turtles did nothing at all! It may just be a one time thing though. The Hobo 23:49, 25 July 2007 (CDT)