GuildWiki talk:Only revert once

This is definitely the tradition now; I think it's maybe okay for a regular user.. but not an admin. Every time I check the list of edits and see something like:
 * 12:01: (some admin) rolled back Article:Sticking People With Sword
 * 12:00: (user, maybe anonymouse) edited Article:Sticking People With Sword

..with no intervening Talk:, it gets my hackles up. A lot of the time, there isn't even a Talk: afterwards! That's just flat-out rude. If we assume the edit was made in good faith in the first place, it especially behooves an admin (who, special powers or not, is the only obvious rank we have in this society) to take the time to say, "Hey, I'm not sure this edit is okay?" And wait at least a few hours to see if anyone responds about it. THEN revert it. This has been bugging me for awhile. --Nunix 04:38, 10 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I would absolutely love it if this guideline changed; I was only trying to document the current state of things.


 * Oi! Policymongers!  Come discuss this!


 * More seriously, I think it's good for "regular users" because they use update comments. With our rollback feature, there is no update comment, so there's no documentation on why an edit was reverted.  I think the ideal change for the GuildWiki is just making us admins revert non-vandal edits with the edit button and a meaningful comment. &mdash;Tanaric 16:19, 10 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I think this tradition is quite bad to have now. "Quite bad" as in: a while ago, I found myself unable to justify continuing to contribute to the main namespace until this changed.  Does anyone know the specific examples that prompted adopting this tradition in the first place (I'm assuming it didn't appear in a vaccuum)? --Rezyk 22:17, 10 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes. Well, fairly certain. But it wouldn't really be productive at this point to say, "This person started doing it, so everyone else did also." As long as it's seen as a bad thing that needs to change, I'm content with that. --Nunix 22:41, 10 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmmm. Well, there's the revert and then there's the explanation of the revert. We need to be clear about which one we are talking about. If the issue is the powers of an admin to revert a bad/lousy edit. I think this power is in the hand of every user. We should give guidelines as to when a revert shoud be used and explain that it should really be used scarcely. I must add that since the beginning of this wiki, every admin I am aware of has been reverting extremely trivial edits without much debate. The most offered is a quick explanation in the comments line.


 * If the issue is that Admin X reverted and did not explain his revert. Well, there are a few points to note:
 * a) As Tanaric said, we could require that everyone explain at least in the comments line why they made a revert. We can even define a rule that any unexplained revert (by anyone) will be reverted within 15 minutes. I personally believe that is overkill, such as in this case.
 * b) I believe there is a certain amount of trust that's supposed to be given to Admins. The kind of trust that Rezyk did not believe existed in the wiki during our famous Hex clash. Just like if a Police Officer attempts to arrest a citizen, a citizen must go along, EVEN if he know he is innocent and the officer is wrong. Resisting an arrest is an offense itself. Likewise, when an admin reverts, I believe it's different than when a user reverts. And I think a user should not revert an admin's revert unless the issue has been discussed in the talk page or the admin offered no explanation. Even if the user believes the admin is dead wrong or even if he hates the admin's guts. It's part of having a process.
 * c) I also believe there are consequences to this trust. If an admin reverts and explains why he made his revert and the user keeps reverting simply because he is mad or is on a pride trip, then I think that user should be banned for a week or so. And yes, I am clearly referring to the exaple of Rezyk's conflict with me. If an admin states why he made the revert, and his complaint is legitimate, then the User butting heads with the admin should be banned for a short while to cool off. If the admin does not explain then he deserves getting childish treatment. But if the Admin explains, I think the User acting childishly and trying to impose his version on admin is not something to be taken lightly. This is something I have run into twice now, once with Rezyk and once with that user who was mad about "The Frog" vs "the Frog."
 * d) This trust comes with a responsibility. If an admin makes an unexplained revert or a revert with poor rationale, this revert will always show up in the history of the articles and other users and admins can check the revert and seek removal of that admin if he is abusing his powers. Making a proper, but unexplained, revert is obviously not grounds for removal, but making several reverts against the reversion policy is certainly grounds for removal.
 * Limiting the powers of an admin to revert below those of a regular user is illogical and ignoring the fact that a person is made admin primarily because of their contributions/didication to the wiki is unwise. --Karlos 03:20, 11 January 2006 (UTC)


 * One of these days, Karlos, we're going to get you to participate in a discussion without adding a screen of text. =p And please refrain from citing names. Going forward is better for all involved, as opposed to mucking about in what has passed.
 * Since the discussion is how to handle reverts, and not edit wars: Tanaric's suggestion that admins only use rollback for vandalism suits me fairly well. And since the cry around here is often, "Admin are just regular users," let's not muck about with additional "powers", as it were: no one reverts without explaining it in the comment. If the comment field is not enough, it must go to Talk:. If a user adds something, and it's reverted, they should never have to go and ask why. Information should already be there. --Nunix 04:34, 11 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Is this just your opinion or are you telling the rest of us how it's going to be. Here is what I am seeing: I am proposing these points (and I am okay with you stating your disagreement), but what I read in your response is you deciding we will not discuss (muck about with) my proposals and that admins will not revert without explaining in the comments. Am I mis-reading your response or is the discussion over?
 * With regards to an admin = user, that is true, an admin's opinion equals a user's opinion. If the admin reverts article X because he thinks the last edit was not objective, and three users post they disagree with him, then he loses. Simple. A clear majority against his edit. This does not mean that an admin's edits are treated the same as an anonymous user's edits. At least I would like to think so.
 * I use names to give clear examples. I don't beat around the bush. I don't understand how you can sit there and say nothing when Tetris writes his assault on my person (and in fact go cheerleading on his talk page) then tell me now to "not name names" for the greater good. With all due respect, I find that incredibly hypocritical. As such, suggestion is rejected. --Karlos 05:30, 11 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Karlos: I agree with Nunix that the discussion about additional admin powers/authority/respect belongs somewhere else, as it is not directly related to this discussion. I would love to discuss it, though. :)


 * Since everyone seems to agree on at least "Only rollback vandalism", I'll wait a few days for disagreements and then add another traditions article with that title. &mdash;Tanaric 14:53, 11 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, and Karlos, I disagree completely with your rollback of Sapphire. I've edited it myself to reflect that. &mdash;Tanaric 14:56, 11 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I find myself ... deeply disturbed by this. I'd like it to be absolutely clear that, in complete contrast to various stuff above, I have never been in a revert war with an admin.  The Hex clash was between 2 non-admins, one of whom was later promoted to admin.  If anyone still has the slightest doubt about this, do not hesitate to speak up.  Otherwise, let's just please move on. --Rezyk 16:44, 11 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think Karlos intended to tarnish your reputation. Nothin' but love, Rezyk. :) &mdash;Tanaric 17:33, 12 January 2006 (UTC)


 * For what it's worth, this was actually quite informative. I've been around long enough and yet sporadically enough to know about some of this stuff, but my initial reading of Karlos's description led me to believe exactly what Rezyk clarified.  I'm not trying to disparage anyone, but I found the wording misled me.
 * Also, since I'm not sure if the discussion has happened somewhere else (this is what happens when I don't have time to read Recent Changes thoroughly every day!), I'm quite in favor of the default that presumes Admins should act like Normal Users unless there's been specific reasons to act otherwise. Additionally, it would be wise for admins to note when they have their Admin Hats on, versus their Regular User Hats on (and I've seen some admins doing this), whenever it might be ambiguous.  I do not presume admins should necessarily be given more respect than any other named user (I'll make exceptions for first-time anonymous posters), especially in general.  Presumably admins are more trusted by the people who made them admins.  However, I certainly couldn't name all the admins on GuildWiki.  When I interact with just about anyone, I treat them as I would treat any other user, because I don't know otherwise.  This is not a legal system, and I think it's unreasonable to assume that users know which other users are Admins (unless we start making it stand out everywhere an admins name is, or something, akin to Purple Text).  If this conversation has happened elsewhere, I'd be happy to know where it led.  =)  --JoDiamonds 05:50, 8 March 2006 (CST)