Talk:Guide to defeating Magni the Bison/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archived
I don't think I broke anything... --Toraen 02:00, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Ranger build attributes
I'm kind of inclined to revert Toraen's change to the attributes listed on the ranger build, but figured I'd look for an explanation here first. Against M. Bison, the changes make the build unambigously worse. The extra point in expertise does nothing for you, as neither of the skills linked to expertise are used in that battle. It doesn't save any energy, as the 14th point in expertise only affects 10 and 25 energy skills, neither of which are used in that battle.

Losing the point in marksmanship, on the other hand, can really hurt. 11 was already low; unless you're higher than 12, each additional point taken out of marksmanship docks you more than 8% of your base damage. Since it's mostly vanilla bow attacks that kill M. Bison, this can make the battle take quite a bit longer.

But what really hurts is losing duration on Pin Down and Hunter's Shot, the two skills that you use. You want to keep M. Bison perpetually crippled so he can't hit you, and bleeding to cancel his health regeneration. At only 10 marksmanship, you're using 9 energy every 11 seconds for those, which uses up most of your energy regeneration. At 11 marksmanship, it's the same 9 energy used, but now only every 12 seconds. That leaves quite a bit more leeway for error, whether to use other skills to heal if you mess up, refresh crippled before it wears off, or whatever.

There's also the issue of peculiar specialty gear. Crippling bowstrings are pretty much worthless in nearly all PvE, with this battle being the only exception that I can think of. I think my ranger had about 6 different bowstrings that I used for PvE (counting all the elemental types as only one), but not a crippling one, because it wasn't nearly as commonly useful as the others. While one could make up for the loss of crippling duration with such a bowstring, assuming that players have it is a bad idea.

Getting to 14 expertise also takes specialty gear that a lot of players won't have. Either you'd need a major or superior attribute rune or expertise headgear. I usually used 9 expertise; for pve purposes, a ranger usually can't justify more than that unless using only expertise and marksmanship, some gimmick farming build, or relying heavily on a secondary profession and not using a bow at all. Incidentally, the previous 13-11-11 attributes listed have the same requirements, but someone could easily drop drop wilderness survival to 10 without much harm.

Is there some earlier opponent where the additional point in expertise makes a big difference? When I did this on my ranger (albeit on a different build; pin down wasn't viable for M. Bison at the time, as its duration was too short), the opponents that were the most troublesome were those that were strong enough healers as to be a pain to kill. I'd think that gimping your damage with reduced marksmanship would make those harder, not easier. Quizzical 06:10, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Completely with ya on this. Although I won't resort to walling ;) You don't need the extra point of Expertise. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  09:17, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I actually used Burning Arrow against Bison, let him Purge Sig, and then used Pin Down & Hunter's Shot, followed by another Burning Arrow while Purge Sig recharged (repeat until dead). Go ahead and revert, as it doesn't really matter (I think I did it with both attribute sets during my testing). Burning Arrow sped things up a bit, but isn't really necessary to beat him. It would make sense to have easier to obtain gear in this guide. --Toraen 17:53, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Warrior Build Note
(moved from article) Note: Through repeated testing by an experienced warrior, Danika, Kisai, Headmaster Vhang and Argo are all a challenge for this build, with even Magni himself being difficult (which is surprising for a full anti-melee build) not recommended at all.

If an experienced warrior is having problems with the build, they should bring up the specific problems here so we can hopefully make a better build or clarify its use. Quizzical (the creator of that build) tested it and all of the other single class builds (except the current ranger) extensively, so it is rather odd that someone can't get the build to work. Some skills that opponents use were updated since that build's posting, but nothing is really different in their strategies. As for the note, it doesn't seem to belong on the main page. --Toraen 14:06, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It needs an Elite to be worthy of an experienced Warrior. -- no, really, the build should work. Kisai doesn't even cause Blind anymore. On all others it ought to function fine. There could be some problems on Magni since usually one needs practice to learn how to fight him - but that isn't because the build doesn't work. I'd also like to state that just because you are an experienced player for a profession in other parts of Guild Wars, doesn't make you good at fighting in the Bison Tourney. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 14:35, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Magni shouldn't be much of a problem. He should only hit you once every aeon, and KD you every so not-very-often. Maintainable 75% block and some 100% blocks tossed in between, with 2 Heals and an Interrupt. You could interrupt his Irresistible Blow to stop him from KDing you, even. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  14:44, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps if the interrupt isn't really needed, could take something like Auspicious Parry too. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 14:53, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * You'll need it against any caster with a Heal, and esp Gwen (lol, Sig of Midnight). --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  14:55, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * (EC) Actually, Kisai's elite was changed to blinding surge, so she still blinds. But I don't see how the build would fail against the casters. I only have a level 14 warrior actually, and I think the build should work properly as is for a level 20 one. --Toraen 14:58, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Against the elementalists, you mostly stand there spamming healing signet a while until your opponent runs out of energy, and then it is easy. Well, move out of Meteor Shower, Sandstorm, and so forth, too.  That's said in the section on opponents, so I didn't restate it for each of several builds.


 * For M. Bison in particular, the build does struggle more than most of the builds I posted. It can usually beat Bison if you use it right, but isn't completely reliable.  If you mess up the tactics, it probably will fail, though.  You need to keep a blocking skill up at nearly all times, as Bison can do tremendous damage if you don't block most of his attacks.  It's often tempting to spam skills, but you have to wait a while until a blocking skill is near ending to use another skill, so that there will always be another blocking skill available to use.


 * The other thing that can easily kill you is if you heal wrong. Healing Signet is the better heal against most earlier opponents, but it's suicide against Bison.  Lion's Comfort is the much safer heal to use against Bison.  It has been relatively nerfed for this build since I tested it, as some healing was later diverted to useless adrenaline gain, which may or may not be much of a problem.


 * As for an elite, there really isn't a place to add it. Furthermore, there isn't any skill in the build for which an elite is a viable substitute.  As explained above, you need to be able to block nearly everything, which is why I brought three blocking stances.  Gladiator's Defense is not a viable substitute for any of them due to its long recharge, as that would leave you with a 20 second period with only two blocking stances available.  Auspicious Parry blocks only one attack intermittently, which might kind of work with the longer lasting stances, but would be awkward to use.  Riposte and deadly riposte are your damage, which is important, as you can't survive Bison's assaults forever.  Lion's comfort alone isn't enough of a heal for some earlier opponents, while healing signet is suicide against Bison if he doesn't get blocked--and he'll also knock you down (and hence interrupt you) while using it quite a bit.  Distracting blow helps for finishing off some earlier opponents, and the only elite warrior interrupt is skull crack, which isn't useable as often.  Quizzical 14:58, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Auspicious could be used to help refill Bonetti's and Riposte more easily, even though it is kinda clumsy. Replace Distracting Blow with Savage Slash? More damage for finishing off...meh. I wonder if there isn't a better way to do Warrior build than this. Dwarven Stability makes it cake but of course that's PvE only etc. Maybe weapon swap for Renewing Smash. Have you tried damage-oriented Axe builds or KD-oriented Hammer builds? ...or maybe a Dragonslasher (would be hard against Bison though)? [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 15:06, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I've used:

And got raped badly by Magni :P With Grenth's Balance I might've won, I got him down pretty far. You can drop Sever then, Deadly Riposte will supply sufficient Bleeding ;) --- -- (s)talkpage  15:11, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Try to trade hits and you'll get destroyed. That's why my build was designed to block most of what M. Bison does.  If you go axe, you lose riposte and deadly riposte, which greatly reduces your damage.  Try to rely on blocking and you'll have to keep Bison knocked down pretty much continuously for about two minutes, which doesn't strike me as practical.  The net effect of bleeding is to cancel M. Bison's intrinsic +3 health regeneration for bosses.  And if you use Grenth's Balance, it's no longer a warrior build.  Quizzical 16:50, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Palawa Joko
For those watching this page, you might have noticed my last edit. Here's the build I ran into him with:

His minions destroyed me, but alternate tactics might work. Interestingly, he didn't even wand me (or move at all) like Danika does. Also, when I locked him as my pet's target, he was standing close enough that the pet went and attacked him without retaliation. I did step out to see if the build itself could beat him, as he might not always stand that close (Danika does the same thing actually). Lastly, the minions appear to be carrying interrupts (contrary to what the official wiki says). --Toraen 22:23, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Marksmanship 12
 * Expertise 10
 * Wilderness Survival 10
 * Beast Mastery 9

Necro Sunspear/Norn Title to win
I'm new and I really wanted to add this build to the how to defeat M.Bison section but wasn't sure how. Can someone here review it and post it to the main page? I've been trying to defeat him for some time and was finally able to do so using this three skill build. Necrosis Ursan Blessing and "You Move Like A Dwarf!" Ursan Blessing will defeat the first five opponents and YMLAD and Necrosis will take down M.Bison. You only have to retreat so he returns to his starting point. Since Necrosis is a sunspear skill you only have to have necro available as a secondary prof. Blbailey3 03:43, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * You're using Ursan so don't bother adding it. Ursan will beat nearly every opponent with ease. :\ YMLAD + Necrosis beating Bison is interesting, though, since I don't know of any other way to do it with so few skills. What rank Norn and Sunspear did you have? [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 11:00, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Norn Rank 5 Sunspear Rank 9. Perhaps Ursan is common knowledge but I've been searching for a while with no success and no mention of Ursan. This was literally the first build that ever worked against Magni. Plus it's super easy and it'll work for every character (with Nightfall and at least as necro secondary).Blbailey3 20:05, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The reason we have tried to eliminate Ursan from these sorts of articles is because it works against...almost anything. So it doesn't merit a mention. That's fairly high Title ranks if you are starting the Tournament as soon as you get there, and for non-NF...meh. Though it should probably still work at lower ranks, as long as Cripple is permanent. One thing I would wonder about is Energy management, though, for class like Warrior or Paragon - 20 base energy wouldn't be so hot. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 20:19, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Nor would be the two pips of regen. YMLaD at maximum rank takes all of that just to keep them crippled. Rank 3 is the minimum to keep them crippled now, but that takes 3 pips of energy. Although, warriors can just use riptoses and only cripple him when they need to run and heal. Paragons have maiming spear. On a sort of related note: should we combine all of the Ursan builds on the page? Toraen (Talk  / Contrib)  19:35, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a good idea. :\ Riposte costs 5e, Deadly Riposte takes 4 Adren, so I am not sure how that would work out either. You may have to use Knee Cutter. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 19:40, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * [[image:Adrenaline.png|Riposte]]Other way around[[image:Energy.png|Deadly Riposte]], Entropy :) --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  20:22, 17 September 2008 (UTC)