User talk:Karlos8903

If you have questions or wish to discuss anything, please leave me a note here...

Sorry, should of asked first, Didn't see any comment about laying off doing that though.--Warban 22:29, 3 March 2006 (CST)

About Image:Chat_team.jpg
You used it for the observer example also in the chat window article, but actually observers have an "(Observer)" tacked onto their names. 20:16, 5 March 2006 (CST)


 * I was being lazy.. Sue me. :) I hate Observer mode chat. I am going to sue ANet for damages the next time I read: "Yeah, I used to be on iQ but I left them. I kicked their butt in HoH yesterday. They're okay though." --Karlos 20:35, 5 March 2006 (CST)

User:Wesrichards
Warning issued on the page. I'm not willing to ban on a first offense. Point it out if it happens again, and you'll have my support in a userban. &mdash;Tanaric 08:39, 7 March 2006 (CST)


 * If we wishes to continue the conversation off-site, that's his choice. I believe he misunderstands the culture of this place&mdash;we tend to fight our battles whereever they crop up&mdash;but I don't see him writing an email address as particularily offensive or abhorrent (if his domain is anything like mine, @wesrichards.net will redirect to a single email inbox).  I'll leave a note on his own talk page regarding our tradition that allows keeping disputes on-site. &mdash;Tanaric 13:32, 9 March 2006 (CST)


 * I think you are mis-reading his intentions and what he is trying to do completely. I don't understand how "Karlos is an idiot" is not "offensive" to you, but fine. There is an amazing amount of maliciousness here that you are missing. If you believe you have followed due process in this, I have no further recourse in this matter then. I'll just wait and see how much worse this is going to get. --Karlos 14:59, 9 March 2006 (CST)


 * Sorry, I've been away-from-keyboard for the last week or so. He crossed the line with "Karlos is an idiot," and I warned him about it.  Nothing further seems to have occurred, so I can't justify banning the guy.  Considering he hasn't shown up on the GuildWiki since the 9th, I doubt anything further will happen.  If it does, please, point it out, and I'll be happy to take care of it.  &mdash;Tanaric 07:48, 20 March 2006 (CST)

Theory on Rare crafting materials
Hey, what was your theory on things that drop rare crafting materials again? Or where was it that you posited this theory? I just got a Monstrous Fang from something that drops stackable salvage items and I can't remember if that went against the theory that you were building or not. --Rainith 13:30, 8 March 2006 (CST)


 * My theory is that it drops from beastial creatures.. Like Hydras, Minotaurs, Avicara.. things that drop crafting material. --Karlos 16:46, 8 March 2006 (CST)


 * Karlos, your theorie is in line with the Prima Guide. Do you have it? On Page 182 of the guide there is a table on the matter. According to this table, creatures that drop Charcoal as rare material (i.e. Gargoyles, Elementals and Imps) also drop Rubies and Saphires. Also, various other creatures that drop other crafting materials (Scales, Bones, Shells) drop Monstrous Eyes / Claws / Fangs. But: Hydras and Minotaurs are not on the list. Do they really drop any crafting materials? -- 17:00, 8 March 2006 (CST)


 * I don't have the guide, and it has not always been the most reliable according to our experience here in the wiki.
 * Anyways, I do not know how to classify those creatures together, because ANet has its own hidden criteria of which critters for example will drop crafting materials and which won't. I do have a monstrous eye that I got from Ascalon Foothills and for the longest time believed it was from a Hydra. Now I am thinking it's from the trees down there, because I saw a tree in Maguuma drop a "monstrous" thing recently (and they drop plant fiber) while the hydra do not drop crafting materials (nerfed).
 * Rainith what was the monster? --Karlos 17:46, 8 March 2006 (CST)
 * According to Prima, Trees do drop Monstrous Eyes, yes. No Claws or Fangs though. -- 19:19, 8 March 2006 (CST)


 * Sounds promising. Maybe they got one thing right. :) Can you dump this table into an article when you have time? Or is it copyright infringement? I remember these used to be a free online part of it. --Karlos 20:02, 8 March 2006 (CST)


 * Here you go:
 * [[Image:RareDrops.jpg]]
 * I'm pretty sure that table is incomplete though. -- 20:17, 8 March 2006 (CST)


 * Hmm, it does confirm one sub-theory of my greater charr doodoo theory. That is, Rubies and Spphires only drop from "extra-terrestrial" beings. i.e. Magical critters that are apparently from some parallel dimension such ghosts, demons, imps and so forth. The only exception is Gargoyles, but they are not exactly terrestial either. This explains why they drop a lot more (relatively, a whopping 0.1% in FoW) in UW or FoW (from creatures that drops materials), because all criters there are meta-physical (demons, spirits, shady characters). This is not concrete info, but if you guys are okay with it, I thikn we should put a hint to that in the Ruby/Saphire pages. --Karlos 20:55, 8 March 2006 (CST)


 * Wait a second. According to the table, ghosts do not drop Rubies/Saphires. And why do you consider Imps "meta-physical" or "extra-terrestrial"? They seem like normal creatures to me. They are fleshy, they don't appear out of nowhere, they don't have that translucent look. Same for Gargoyles. On the other hand, many creatures that I'd consider "ET" (Nightmares, Phantoms, ...) do not drop Rubies/Sapphires. (At least not according to the Prima table.) So .... I don't see any pattern here, or any conection to "extra-terrestrial" or metaphysical beings. -- 22:04, 8 March 2006 (CST)


 * Imps are traditionally minor demonic beings. And elementals are traditionally magical constructs. Both can be summoned in Dungeons and Dragons (I think.. I've never actually played it, just games based upon it) and as most CRPGs have a basis in the DnD/Tolkien mythology, there is some tenuous plausibility in Karlos' theory. Shandy 22:11, 8 March 2006 (CST)


 * Drawing conclusions from common mythology is risky. See the endless discussions that we've had about ghosts, spirits, phantoms, spectres, nightmares, demons, etc. We still havn't clarified how all these are related to eachother in GW. -- 22:28, 8 March 2006 (CST)


 * Hey, I never said it was fact. :) Imps are usually known as "planar" creatures for those who are familiar with D&D settings. Traditionally, they are the lower ranks of the legions of hell. Mischeivous little baby-demons. :) The effect of traditional/classical D&D cannot be ignored. Almost everything in the game is inspired by it. Treants? Elementals? Do you think ANet came up with these. The classification of fleshy/bleeding/... etc is not always one that follows a system. Case in point is Flesh Golems. They are, like undead minions of all sort, a walking pile of human flesh. Much like horros and minions specifically. Still, for some reason they leave a corpse behind and the others don't (reason of course is that ANet wanted to make that creature have corpses to animate). There is no logical explanation why its corpse can be exploited and that of a bone horror cannot.
 * I am just trying to think of an over-arching theme. It may well be that ANet never came up with an over-arching theme and simply checked a box next to the monster's name (for whether it will or will not drop jewels) based on the area difficulty or how many jewels they want to be found to begin with. --Karlos 22:45, 8 March 2006 (CST)


 * I'm expanding this to save space. Imps are mage familiars, and lesser planar creatures as Karlos stated, in DnD and Elementals(Earth, Wind, Water, Fire)(Regular, Huge, Elder) are summoned using spells in DnD. I'm afraid this is not DnD, sadly. *is DnD freak. Elementals are not magical constructs, those would be golems(stone, clay, iron, adamantium), 2 different creatures in DnD.
 * Either way, this chart, however controversial it may be, would be a good stepping stone to test out and prove or disprove theories. This weekend I farmed fire imps, nightmares, and inferno imps extensively to amass enough charcoal and dust to create some Deldimor Steel. Unfortunately I did not record my numbers, but I will go back now because of what this chart says, record my findings and see if I can get lucky. You'd be suprised how frequently charcoal drops and how crappy trying to get charcoal from glowing hearts is. The Nightmares dropped mainly dust and shadow remanents.
 * I think it could be wise to persue Prima's data and see. --Gares Redstorm 23:03, 8 March 2006 (CST)


 * I agree. This is a good place to start. Some of the names are confusing though, the Ghost vs Spirit thing, and why do spirits drop ecto but ghosts don't? Anyways.. It's all the more reason to fill out the drop rate data. :) --Karlos 23:10, 8 March 2006 (CST)


 * I am suprised to see Nightmares drop Ecto. What I have always gone by is "the higher the level, the better chance of a rare drop". The 2 highest level Nightmares would be the level 20 in Talmark Wilderness and the level 20 Ravagers in Bloodstone Fen Mission. --Gares Redstorm 23:21, 8 March 2006 (CST)


 * The highest level Nightmares in Tyria (i.e. not FoW or UW) are the nightmares of the Ring of Fire mission. They are level 28. And all of the nightmares I have encountered in Tyria have not dropped a single ecto for me or anyone I have been with. The nightmares in UW don't drop ectos and the ones in FoW drop Shards. --Karlos 23:25, 8 March 2006 (CST)


 * Excuse me, I didn't notice the level 28 nightmares in the bestiary. But yeah I remember them now. Are the only location of them in the Ring of Fire mission near the beginning after the first seal? Seem to remember 3, maybe 4, popups and thats it. --Gares Redstorm 23:45, 8 March 2006 (CST)


 * Well, one time I was bored enough to try and save Brechnar Ironhammer from the Mursaat, so I killed the big batch that goes after him and followed him and he dropped dead without anyone touching him. :) Anyways, when you go in that dead end side of the island, there are 2 maybe 3 there as well. --Karlos 00:26, 9 March 2006 (CST)

Sheesh, go to bed and a novel worth of conversation happens. To answer your question Karlos, I got the Monstrous Fang from some Bog Skale in North Kryta Province, so that would fit in with the chart from the Prima guide. --Rainith 01:07, 9 March 2006 (CST)

Vandal using multiple IPs in the 205.188.116.x range
I posted a comment about this on User talk:Rainith because he had blocked the first two; now you've done two more in this range today. Should probably keep it to one talk page, can you comment any suggestions on Rainith's talk page? --161.88.255.140 04:16, 11 March 2006 (CST)

Wiki Stuff
While we're talking about mysterious logouts, do you know how to make the Wiki stop telling me I have new messages when I've already viewed them; just because I happen to have made the top edit on my own talk page? Evan The Cursed (Talk) 08:59, 11 March 2006 (CST)


 * Just view the talk page. That works for me. and it never triggers on my own edits because when you edit the page, you see it after the edit is saved. It only triggers if an edit has been made to your page that you have not seen. At least that's how it works for me. --Karlos 09:04, 11 March 2006 (CST)


 * Aye, that's the general idea with every wiki I've ever been to. But for some reason, that is not the case with this one.  The blasted "You have new messages." message haunts me everywhere I go, no matter how many times I view my own talk page.  Although it's odd, because on my own User_talk history page, right next to my last edit, it has " ", and I have no idea what that means.  Anyways, it's no big deal, I'll bring it up with an admin or something soon.  Evan The Cursed (Talk) 09:45, 11 March 2006 (CST)


 * I think you have Wastrel's Worry on your talk page. :) --Karlos 10:06, 11 March 2006 (CST)

Enchantment Removal Quick Reference
Thanks, I was having a brain-fart when trying to figure out a note marker to use. The &lt;sup&gt; tag works well. --Bishop 18:11, 11 March 2006 (CST)


 * Credit whoever used it here on the wiki first. (No clue whom that might be.) :) I learned it when someone used it on the henchmen table when I first made it. --Karlos 18:26, 11 March 2006 (CST)

Murry the Uber Skull
As a fellow player of the monkey island series i couldn't help but notice that murry, quite probably the coolest npc in any game in existance, is not included in your hall of coolness. is this a mistake or do you have something against sarcastic dissembodied skulls? an a more serious but still not really serious note, i noticed we have similar tastes in story telling appreciation so i'm going to suggest you check out myth I and II from bungie if you haven't already because of the awesome stories in each. they're also both quite challenging RTS games as well if you're into that kind of thing. even if you're not i think it's worth it just to pick them up and play through for the story.Tetracycloide 11:49, 12 March 2006 (CST)


 * Well, Murray never appeared in MI1 and 2. Thus his coolness can never quite reach its potential, as MI1 and MI2 blew its successors out of the water.  >_>


 * Also, Myth I > Myth II. Muahahaha.  Evan The Cursed (Talk) 13:22, 12 March 2006 (CST)


 * Nah, Monkey Island's characters as hilarious as they may be were not truly developed characters like Minsc or the very complex Jon Irenicus. I played Myth II briefly. The story was beautiful but I could never get around the combat system so I didn't go far. The combat system got on my nerves too easily.
 * My favorite was Monkey Island 3. :) "And blast my significant other, into the significant other world! Mwah ha ha haaaah!" :)
 * "That will show her how much i truely care." one of my favorite lines as well, right up there with "I don't need a prop" and "you don't know that, that shot could have come from the grassy gnoll"
 * if you thought the combat system was annoying in myth II then you would probably hate it in myth I. everything was keyboard controled for the most part and there was no way to easily change facings of unit groups.  i personally found the myth II system to be the best RTS combat system i have ever used but i think many RTS players prefer the city builder aspects of RTS games to the actual RTS ones. Tetracycloide 14:45, 14 March 2006 (CST)

Underworld question
Me and two friends have been training on trapping the whole Underworld recently. This is a hard task with only 3 players, but it seems to be doable. We just today came up with a new problem. If we have taken the Restore the Monuments of Grenth quest some Terrorwebs have spawned at all of the monuments. If we kill them then a Reaper appears. Would the Obsidian Behemoths in Twin Serpent Mountains attack the Reaper if we kill the Terrorwebs first? This is a problem as the Terrorwebs spawn in front of the Obsidians, so we must kill them first. We could also take the quest later, but then we would miss the ability to teleport around. We are pretty sure that the Obsidians would attack, so we propably need to take the quest later. Is there a similiar problem with the Bone Pits or Spawning Pools Reapers? 08:04, 18 March 2006 (CST)


 * The Twin Serpent Mountains Reaper is the only one with this problem. There are two ways of going about this... You can either take the Monuments quest after the Vale and then when you get to the mountains, you take on both the dryders and the behemoths, or you can hold back on the dryders by not taking the quest, as you mentioned.
 * If you are going to take the quest, killing the dryders first is the obvious better tactic than leaving them to nuke you while you take out the behemoths. The one advantage you have is that they won't necessarily go for the reaper. If you get up and get closer to them that he is, then they will probably (emphasis on PROBABLY) switch to you. Better yet, make sure when the last dryder falls that someone from your party is closer to them than the reaper. Another idea would be to have someone bring Healing Spring to heal the reaper in case they go for him.
 * I am not sure how useful much of this is to you though because I have never trapped in the UW (or anywhere else, my ranger is languishing in Ascalon City, scorned). I am unsure if going up to them is something you can do or not. You can also bring a pet, have the pet get mauled by the Aatxe and not res him till you get to this part, then res him for this confrontation so that when the dryders die, the pet is closer to the Behemoths than the reaper. The reaper is level 30, so if he shows up and is not the only target to the Behemoths, chances are they will most likely pick someone else. The worst thing you can do in that scenario is run away, because the AI is programmed to immediately switch targets if it senses you are kiting. Since the reaper never backs down or runs away, they will pick him up as target and he will refuse to back down. If they all target him, it will be hard to get them to NOT target him. So, your best shot is to have someone there and closer to them than the reaper when he pops up. Good hunting. :) --Karlos 10:07, 18 March 2006 (CST)
 * Thank you for the information. We are allready using a pet agains the Behemoths (who else would do a suicide run into their traps before we start to trap them) and Barrage to prevent them from trapping us while we trap them. As a 3 man team we need some time between each group, so killing the Terrorwebs and then rushing into the Obsidians won't work for us. It seems that we need to clear this area before taking the quest.
 * How many Obsidian Behemoths are there behind the statue and can they be fought in smaller groups? We can atleast take a group of 4, but if other groups are shooting at us at the same time this gets hard. 17:31, 18 March 2006 (CST)
 * There are usually 4 up top by the statue and 3 or 4 a bit below. The two groups are far enough that you will not need to engage both. Bascially, the last bit of the path looks like a Z and the behemoths are at the angles of the Z with more than an aggro bubble's radius between them.--Karlos 18:17, 18 March 2006 (CST)
 * Thanks. I think we can handle it. Now we just need enough time to clear the whole UW. I'll take screenshots and give you a link to them later. :)
 * Oh yeah. Any tips against the necros in the Bone Pits?. We have 2x R/Mo and 1x R/N. One slot free at one R/Mo and one or two at the R/N. We can fight against them currently, but it is a VERY close fight.  18:36, 18 March 2006 (CST)
 * Spell Breaker :). I can't see you guys taking on the Chaos Planes, but hey if you can do it, that would be awesome. Please post screenshots. I just posted my FoW build with a screenie. We can clear half the Fissure basically with that build. :) --Karlos 18:55, 18 March 2006 (CST)

We haven't yet had time to try again, and propably won't have in a few weeks. Instead me and Kalomeli cleared 1/3 UW duo trapping today. We killed all Aatxes, Smites, Graspings and most Cold Fires and we completed the Escort Souls and Wrathfull Spirits quests. We could also have completed the Unwanted Guests, but Kalomelis computer rebooted spontaneously.

We still lack any ideas against the groups of 2-3 Banished Dream Riders (+1 Wailing Lord) in the Chaos Planes. We can manage 1 Rider and the Mindblades which it spawns, but the large groups seem impossible. The Dead Collectors and Thrashers are also very difficult. Any ideas area welcome. Do you know anyone who could help us more? 05:24, 20 March 2006 (CST)


 * Can you tell me what it is exactly that the Dream Riders are doing that is making taking on more than one so difficult? --Karlos 15:18, 20 March 2006 (CST)


 * I guess it is the interrupting (of unguent or healing spring) that makes them so evil. Incidently, I did an UW run yesterday, for the first time in months, to get a new pet for my ranger. Was a guildy group of 3 trappers, 2 monks, later 2 trappers 1 monk due to boots. For the behemoths, restore conditions is very nice, since it enables the trappers of taking the behemoths head on. However killing the above mentioned group was too tough with 3 people. However I should add that we were quite careless (not really into it anymore after the boots), so it should be possible to kill that group by clever pulling and clearing the area to enable running first. --Xeeron 18:53, 20 March 2006 (CST)


 * We didn't really fight the larger groups when we saw them, but a few things make them seem hard. We can manage the Mindblades spawned by one killed Rider (9 spectres in the end), but I think we wouldn't survive if we have another Rider using its skills against us while we fight the Mindblades (and don't forget the Wailing Lord, which adds it attacks to the fray :) ).
 * We use the team build (Team - Trapper Farm Build) with one puller, one BM trapper and one WS + secondary proff trapper. The two first have the same puller skillbar (rebirth as optional) expect for the spirits (QZ and EW). The third is a R/N with Mark of Pain, Charm Animal, Comfort Animal, Barrage, Troll Unguent, Res sig, QZ and 1 trap. Any suggestions on how to change the skills to fight the groups we have problems with are welcome. 20:45, 20 March 2006 (CST)


 * I would like to emphasize that my ranger is languishing in Ascalon City, banished to a life of Muleness. :) I see two skills that can be troublesome: Cry of Frustration and Energy Drain. Everything else seems to not really affect you. Empathy is annoying, but if you're using high Markmanship and inflicting 90-100 dmg per, then 34 dmg from Empathy is a fair trade.
 * Mantra of Resolve seems like a good option to counter Cry of Frustration (the other two interrupts will not work), but the presence of Energy Drain (ED) threatens to break off Resolve. I would try and use up their interrupts on one trapper and then have the other trappers come in and do their work:
 * IF I recall correctly, they are 2 Riders, 1 Wailing Lord and 1 Mindblade. So, you need to guard against 2 interrupts.
 * I would suggest 3 R/Me's or 2 R/Me's and one R/Mo.
 * First of all, trap their path so you get in an early hit before the agony begins.
 * As soon as they fall into the traps, have one trapper go to them (with Unguent already on), and use slow casting skills like nature rituals/preparations. They will interrupt him twice (and probably use Energy Drain on him once). After you see that poor trapper cussing for the second time, the other two trappers should go in (one of them will still get burned by ED).
 * If all of this is done quickly enough, you should have about 15 seconds of interrupt and ED free trapping.
 * If there is a R/Mo trapper without Resolve, he should go in last or stick to shooting from far away.
 * Dont' forget that they are very fragile to physical damage. So, you can actually completely switch your tactic around with them. i.e. trap their path and when they come around, attack with bows and marksmanship. The two who have Empathy on them should take it easy while the third should hit them hard. With Resolve, you can get your Troll Unguent in as you like.
 * --Karlos 02:27, 21 March 2006 (CST)

check out new skill box voting process
Check out the new skill box voting process, and if you have any suggestions to furthur reduce confusion, let me know. -SolaPan 16:01, 21 March 2006 (CST)


 * Hnnnrgh. My two cents on this and all voting processes: Category talk:Votes. &mdash;Tanaric 09:09, 22 March 2006 (CST)

Lyssa has no blessings in GWF?
Just curious. 11:16, 25 March 2006 (CST)


 * Haven't come across her statue yet. I am jotting these down as I explore. The stutes in the Echovald Forest are very hard to spot in the darkness. :( All the ones I found were in Luxon lands. --Karlos 11:38, 25 March 2006 (CST)

Banning
Karlos, could you please delete the ban requests for ips/users you have banned. Otherwise it looks like they still need to be banned. --Rainith 08:46, 27 March 2006 (CST)


 * I check the ban requests from the Recent Changes list. I do not track pages made for users. On the flip side, you could check Special:Ipblocklist to see if a certain ban has taken place or not. I'll make a note to check if a user page was created to delete it also. --Karlos 08:50, 27 March 2006 (CST)


 * Shame on you, you did it again! Just had to clean up the mess you left... ;) -- 04:25, 1 April 2006 (CST)

Talk:Turtle Shell
Talk:Turtle Shell, feedback appreciated. -SolaPan 11:37, 27 March 2006 (CST)

Wardens & Dredges
It's been a long day... well done on all your work with these monsters. I don't know how you do it. I'm just a newbWikian but I like to have categories sorted straight, hence "Category:Dredge Bosses" & "Category:Warden Bosses". I was wondering about the humans category, but it was tere before, I had thought about removing it. If you've left any bosses in Category:Bosses, iI'll clear it up. other wise good work, Karlos! --Jamie 22:06, 28 March 2006 (CST)


 * I and Kalomeli cleared the Category:Bosses from every boss and categorizes them correctly, so there is nothing to do on that front. 00:48, 29 March 2006 (CST)


 * Thanks guys. I am not very current on the category structures and I was not actively reviewing all the info I was dumping. I did take notice of what you were doing and I tried to stick to it at the end. I figured that if I stick to the old categorization, at least the bosses will be found somewhere as opposed to not categorizing them. Someone need to update Style & Formatting with this new boss categorization rule.
 * And my secret is: Notepad. :) --Karlos 06:12, 29 March 2006 (CST)


 * The one who started the boss category thing was Tetris L if I recall correctly. The talk on the subject can be found in User talk:Kalomeli and Category talk:Bosses. 07:09, 29 March 2006 (CST)

Deleting stuff
You seem to be online at the moment, could you please do the honours of deleting Ri and Ra for me before someone else says my aricles suck, I'm reading GuildWiki:You are valuable over and over but it's not making me feel any better, please could you get rid of them for me. --Xasxas256 18:16, 6 April 2006 (CDT)


 * This is not something for you to request, nor for me to grant. If the discussion there is over, and the article seems unneeded, rest assured it will be deleted. If the people discussing it (with you or without you) reachthe conclusion that it should stay, it will stay, even if I delete, others will bring it back.
 * If you no longer care about the article, walk away from the debate. My suggestion, however, is to stand up for your edits. It does not diminish your value to the wiki that other users found an article you made unnecessary or edited it or changed it. Let's be honest, the entire contribution was:  "#redirect Ranger . you've had much greater impact on the wiki than to worry about someone removing a single line of text that you put. --Karlos 19:05, 6 April 2006 (CDT)
 * How about you delete it then recreate it? Then I don't have to worry about being associated with it at all. You're not going to do that are you? Well look since I worked out how to get around the content proxy at work I thought I may as well make a few edits on the GuildWiki. Thanks for the vote of confidence on my worth, but I'm not as idealistic as you are perhaps; I should probably stand for something I believe in but at the moment the cost vs payoff doesn't seem worthwhile.


 * Work has been a bit slow lately so I've been reading about a few interesting and inspiring figures in history; Che Guevara Michael Collins Trotsky and Stanislav Petrov but none of them ended up doing that well did they? In fact, and I've just realised this now, with the exception of Petrov, despite their tireless efforts none of them really made a difference did they? That's a bit depressing isn't it? Ok well leave the articles undeleted for now, but it's impossible for me to totally step away and ignore them, that goes against human nature too much, it's a bit like how firebugs watch the fire they lit. Or how we pick at scabs when we know we should leave them alone. --Xasxas256 19:33, 6 April 2006 (CDT)


 * Not much I can do since the real question is: Is this used or not. It appears to be not used and the article headed for deletion. Still, even that will not erase from the server's history your involvement in the article. :)
 * Not a fan of Trotsky at all. One who says something like this:
 * An army cannot be built without reprisals. Masses of men cannot be led to death unless the army command has the death penalty in its arsenal. So long as those malicious tailless apes that are so proud of their technical achievements — the animals that we call men — will build armies and wage wars, the command will always be obliged to place the soldiers between the possible death in the front and the inevitable one in the rear
 * ...is not a great leader of men, but an arrogant moron. I, for one, am glad he failed. :) --Karlos 19:41, 6 April 2006 (CDT)


 * Ah yes well Communism (and even Marxism in general) didn't shy away from violence, rebellion, and revolution to achieve freedom for people (although it didn't seem to achieve true freedom did it?). I think that Trotsky at least seemed to genuinely want to improve life in Russia, even if he got caught up in all the infighting, and when he failed, Stalin won, arguably one of the most ruthless leaders in modern history and a worse alternative. Back to Trotsky, I'd say it's hard to be an idealist and not be arrogant. --Xasxas256 19:57, 6 April 2006 (CDT)


 * It's hard to care about the people you are leading, or even lead them to any good when one fosters such despite as he did. I'd much rather take the Ghandi approach. :) --Karlos 20:00, 6 April 2006 (CDT)


 * Well it took Ghandi a heck of a lot longer to achieve his goal of independance than the Bolsheviks took to achieve a socialist revolution. Ghandi also said wrote an open letter to the British in WWII saying:


 * "I want you to lay down the arms you have as being useless for saving you or humanity. You will invite Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini to take what they want of the countries you call your possessions. Let them take possession of your beautiful island with your many beautiful buildings... If these gentlemen choose to occupy your homes, you will vacate them. If they do not give you free passage out, you will allow yourself, man, woman and child to be slaughtered... I am telling His Excellency the Viceroy that my services are at the disposal of His Majesty's government, should they consider them of any practical use in enhancing my appeal."


 * By shunning violence in favour of non participation doesn't mean violence will not be used against you. This is a nice quote though from Ghandi: "Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man." I suppose Ghandi was both an idealist but also very modest and he was ultimately successful. But we're talking about a foreign empire (British) in India, I wonder if non violence to achieve political upheaval and social improvement would have worked in early 20th century Soviet Union. My gut feeling is probably not. I definitely don't think it would have worked at the height of Stalin's power. --Xasxas256 20:31, 6 April 2006 (CDT)


 * But Stalin's power is a direct fruit of Trostsky's efforts. :) There maybe a point when violence is unavoidable, but Trostsky's bloodthirsty vision that only violence gets through men's thick skulls is the problem, not that there can be no violence. --Karlos 20:35, 6 April 2006 (CDT)