Talk:Dervish

Scythes?
Scythes. Awesome. Given the nature of speculation however, I'm not going to hold my breath any time soon. --Black Ark 09:51, 18 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Probably a good idea - not coming out until christmasish - you'd suffocate ST47 09:54, 18 July 2006 (CDT)

Image rights
I do not believe we have rights to use the image. If we do, please post that info. Otherwise, the images need to be deleted from here. We can provide links to the GameSpot site that contains the image. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 11:17, 18 July 2006 (CDT)
 * There are images available from www.guildwars.com right here . Are we free to use them such as we already use Image:Gw-monk2-large.jpg or Image:Gwwarriors2.jpg which somehow seem to come out of the same source? --MRA 04:47, 21 July 2006 (CDT)

Assassin Mk II
Wears robes instead of armor and relies on its agility to resist damage.. where have we heard that before.. oh noes >< &mdash; Skuld  11:47, 18 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Now that is just mean to assassins. a well played assassin can turn around preaty much any match. Detraya fullvear
 * No it isn't its the truth.. I am summarising the WHOLE leeroy assassin population, not the 5% who have an idea of what the class does.. &mdash; Skuld  12:59, 18 July 2006 (CDT)
 * As opposed to, what, the 5% of wammos that actually know what condition removal is or the 10% of eles who bring any defensive skills? Every profession has a large number of poor players playing it. Assassins are just built in such a way that it's much more obvious when one of them sucks. Personally, I'm hoping dervish defenses are all about stances rather than magic. I'm also hoping that the gear pictures is their "ugly" armor style. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 13:09, 18 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Hey! Running away while the artillery cools and letting someone who's isn't dressed like a lingere model, Vegas showgirl or circus performer (although my ele wears actual clothing) take the hits is a defensive skill. And I usually offer to run builds other than the standard damage / knockdown fire nuker. -- Gordon Ecker 21:48, 18 July 2006 (CDT)
 * so, in short, 99% of players give the rest a bad name? --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 13:30, 18 July 2006 (CDT)
 * In short, all classes suck if you evaluate them based on the lowest common denominator. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 16:06, 18 July 2006 (CDT)

I honestly don't give a crap about how much the Dervish is going to rock/suck, it's the scythes I'm tickled pink about. Do you have any idea how much I've been longing for a scythe on my ranger? No, of course you don't, I haven't even been on this wiki that long. Now I'm just hoping that all the useful skills won't be tied to the Dervish' primary-attribute. Oh, I haven't been this psyched about a preview-weeked in a long time. Whoooo! Alright, alright - on topic; I do hope this class'll be a bit more resilient than the Assassin, and if not, I at least hope that all those idiots nice, misguided people that effectively skewed a party's view of `sins will have learned a valuable lesson: if it ain't a warrior, don't play it as a warrior. Let them screw up the Paragon instead. --Black Ark 16:31, 18 July 2006 (CDT)
 * My speculative hope is that Dervishes have armor/energy similar to Rangers and Paragons have armor/energy similar to Assassins. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 16:43, 18 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Rangers and Assassins actually have the same (or at least comparable) AL; it's just that Rangers have more elemental defense and Assassins have an extra pip of energy-regen. I'm guessing that works for the new classes though; if the Paragon has Warrior-level AL it doesn't need to be typed as a back-row character and if the Dervish has high AL like that, the Warrior-class might become obsolete. What I'm really wondering about here (yes indeed, scythes) is whether or not the new weapons will be two-handed (stands to reason - scythes are big, so are spears... usually); or if perhaps there'll be one- AND two-handed versions on the market (see: wands/staves). And attack-speed. And most importantly, damage. Oh man, oh, man. Oh, man! --Black Ark 16:52, 18 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Spears are more often one-handed. The paragon seems to come from Persian Immortals (at least to me), if so, they would carry a short spear along with a shield. This is, of course, just a guess. -- Ledrug 19:17, 18 July 2006 (CDT)
 * That's why we have builds like A/R Critical Barrager! &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 22:25, 18 July 2006 (CDT)

All the primary attributes so far have been designed to be applicable to more than one class - the most limiting one is the Rit since extra creature health basically means only Necros and Rits. You know what would be fun? Primary attribute Fast Attack - you hit faster. >> Kessel 06:04, 20 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Divine Favor's probably the most limited primary attribute in the released campaigns, since it only only really affects primary profession spells. In addition to providing minions and rit spirits with extra health, it also boosts the health of nature spirits. Furthermore, Boon of Creation and Explosive Growth combo great with Animate Bone Minions and Death Nova, and Attuned Was Songkai, although subpar on its own compared to most of the competition, has the potential to be insanely good (at least in PvE) in conjunction with Blood is Power or the numerous Mesmer energy management skills. -- Gordon Ecker 21:33, 26 July 2006 (CDT)

Similarities
Is it just me or does this character have some striking similarities to another character from a certain fighting game? The hood, the weapon, even the skin color for their example model...--Ryard 22:57, 18 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I thought the same thing, in fact it makes me want a Dervish character even more. Concerned Citizen 20:58, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

Suspicions
I've a sneaky suspicion that the Dervish may in fact be similar to the Druids of World of Warcraft in that they can morph into different creatures for a certain amount of time in order to fight. --Suspchaos
 * Im guessing that the dervish elites will allow them to turn all powerful for a few seconds, but have a TREMENDOUS recharge.
 * Yeah, I've been thinking about that as well. I'd say that that would be their primary attribute, increasing damage done and the time allowed to be in that morph-form. Also, if they're going to actually take the form of gods, I actually don't think it'll be the familiar Tyrian lot. Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think there's a single statue or mention or mural of Grenth, Balthazar, Melandru or any other member of the Tyrian God-posse in the Crystal Desert... on the other hand, I didn't see much else, statue-wise, that hinted at the belief in another pantheon either. I wouldn't be surprised if the Elonians had a pack of deities of their own though, following the Tyrian pattern. If so, it's just going to be a bit of a religious clash when Balthazar-fearing Tyrians suddenly have to curry favour with a new God of War. Oh, what? Conspiracy-theories, me? Alright, I'll take the hat off. --Black Ark 02:33, 20 July 2006 (CDT)
 * If I'm not mistaken, Turai Ossa himself referenced the Five Old Gods during the Ascension chain. And again, if I'm not mistaken, there's no statues in the desert simply becaused nobody survived long enough to build any (I guess they were all too focused on building their giant pillars to the sky). --Valentein 05:54, 20 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Could be. I really don't recall that, and even so, it could be Five Other Also Elderly Gods for all we know. Not so sure about the statues though, there are plenty of statues of giant female Warriors in Knight's armour. Unless that's what they worshipped, I don't think the Dervish will suddenly transform into that. Could be quaint, though. "I'm using Form of Scarcely Clad Wammo!"? --Black Ark 06:11, 20 July 2006 (CDT)
 * If I recall correctly, I think I read somewhere on here that Grenth was not the first god of the underworld and another had held his palce before...SO there is a chance that the transformations would be of other gods...


 * I just hope they can turn into melundru "OMG, THE TREE IS ATTACKING ME WITH REFRESHING WATER!!!" I can't wait.  --Jermoe 09:03, 20 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Yeah, they sound similar to WoW and D2 Druids. As well as WoW Paladins, D&D Druids without the summoning or animal forms and certain types of Specialty Priests / Cleric Prestige Classes. I suspect that Earth Prayers overlaps Earth Magic and Protection Prayers, Wind Prayers overlaps Healing Prayers and the less agressive aspects of Air Magic and Water Magic, both overlap Smiting Prayers, Scythe Mastery overlaps Sword Mastery and Axe Mastery and Mysticism covers energy management, avatar morphing, supplemental effects (like Divine Boon, Explosive Growth, Mantra of Persistence or Vampiric Spirit), miscellaneous skills, and, depending on how the attribute's inherent effect actually works, either some equivalento of Contemplation of Purity or some form of enchantment stripping. If they have stances, I suspect they're divided between Scythe Mastery and Mysticism. Hopefully they'll have Earth Prayers, Wind Prayers and Mystycism wands, staves and foci (or at least staves). -- Gordon Ecker 17:26, 26 July 2006 (CDT)

ScytheS or Scythe?
im wondering if this professions weapon will be a Scythe like grim reaper type thing because if so, SWEET, and if its dual weapons then i find this to just be an assassin MKII and if so, damn...although i do hope that this character doesnt look cool because we dont want another assassin incident happening(assassins + look cool + newbs use them = hated profession). Samurai snack 03:50, 19 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm guessing (read: hoping) for a big old two-handed scythe. Only the Warrior-class has a two-handed (single) melee-weapon now; the slow and powerful hammer. I imagine the scythe's slow, powerful, two-handed, but will factor in a great deal of speed-buffs from the Dervish-class itself. You could argue that the Assassin-class already has dual scythes and sickles so that the Dervish doesn't need puny hand-sickles anymore. You could also argue that the Warrior-class also already has a Sickle and a White Scythe-weapon, but that will just make me sad. Let us have the big Zasalamel-scythes already. --Black Ark 04:20, 19 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I am in total agreement. Let's hope it's a big grim reaper-type scythe. Still suprised there is not a class with the cestus for a weapon yet. Maybe in the 4th expansion *crosses fingers* -Gares 07:30, 19 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Yeah, I'd love to see a martial artist / brawler class in Campaign 4. I'm pretty sure it's an actual scythe, since one of the E3 reports described the concept art for one of the classes as someone wearing robes and wielding a bladed staff, which sounds a lot more like a huge two-handed scythe than a small one-handed sickle (or a spear). -- Gordon Ecker 19:06, 19 July 2006 (CDT)


 * They use a single scythe --Jamie [[Image:Jamie.jpg|24px|(Talk Page)]]  08:02, 27 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Now that's a grim reaper style scythe. :D -Gares 08:09, 27 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I approve! --Black Ark 08:35, 27 July 2006 (CDT)


 * although it is very unlikely, there is no reason why there shouldn't be two types of scythe both using scythe mastery, after all a 2 hand scythe and 2 scythes both use 2 hands, but the picture i found has a 2hand single scythe. with some balancing between the two types (hammer & dagger-esque balance) --Jamie [[Image:Jamie.jpg|24px|(Talk Page)]] 08:36, 27 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Sure enough, but Anet also didn't add two-handed swords and axes to the game, nor did they add single-handed hammers. Even though those things would've made a lot of people happy, I'm certain... sure, they did at one point include semi-pseudo-more-or-less-almost-not-entirely-dual-wielding for "swords" in the form of Shiro's Blades, but come on. Shiro's Blades? What a joke. I'm really trying to be more sarcastic about this, but at this I think I'm failing just as hard as, well, Shiro's Blades. --Black Ark 08:54, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

Darvish "crap"
I reworded the trivia section that Karlos removed (calling it "crap") and put it back in. Karlos, I hope you can live with the reworded version a little better. I know it still contains stereotypes from a western point of view, and it probably doesn't do the Sufi justice, but reading the GameSpot preview it is clear that ANet had some of these things in mind, for example the "whirling, spinning attack" is clearly inspired by the whirling dance. I bet there's also a Dervish skill that's called "Howling". -- 12:37, 19 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I cleaned it up a bit more based on the wikipedia article, and added some stuff about dervishes in RPGs, but it still needs work. I'm thinking the Dervish class is inspired by the martial subset of historical dervishes that are roughly equivalent to warrior-monks like Asian Sohei or members of European military orders. Does anyone know the correct Arabic or Persian term for warrior-monk, or the name of a specific historically significant martially-oriented dervish fraternity so we can get more accurate info on inspirations? -- Gordon Ecker 19:06, 19 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I removed the dancing reference and will fight it all the way, until I am thoroughly defeated. Now, if the Dervish ends up having an attack called "Whirling Attack" or "Whirling Dance" or whatever, I am fine with putting a note in THAT skill's page saying that THAT skill's name in combination with the class name is a reference to "Whirling Dervishes" who are, by the way, just dancing boys.
 * I refuse to allow the main article to contribute to the pathetic Western stereotypes that Dervishes are mostly, commonly or even usually "whirling" ones. They are NOT. A dervish in the Arab world, in Turkey and in Iran is a man living the simple life. Dressing in simple, rough clothing, eating little, living in the mosque, spending most of his time in worship and meditation.
 * Please keep the main article "dance" free, and if ANet makes a skill that has any whirling in it, then put that reference there. --Karlos 01:52, 20 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Even though I expected it I'm still disapointed that you insist to censor out what you don't like (and even violate GW:1RV doing so). If there's a stereotype, ignoring or denying it helps very little. I'd prefer if we deal with it and explain what's wrong about it. Maybe we even manage to do a little education here.
 * Whether you like it or not, it is a matter of fact that Dervishes are best known for the whirling dance in the western world. Do a Google search for "dervish" and you'll see that at least half of the top 20 hits contain some reference to whirling/spinning. Are you seriously trying to deny that this is the inspiration for the "whirling, spinning attack" mentioned in the GameSpot review? Personally I expect that the "whirling" will be a major aspect of the Guild Wars Dervish, and that several skills, possible even an attribute will be named after it. But that's just guessing for now. We can postpone this discussion until we know the facts. It's only one week til the preview event.
 * On a side note, I'm afraight this is just a little preview of the difficult discussions ahead. Remember, I told you so. ;) :p --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 03:03, 20 July 2006 (CDT)

Like it or not, Anet does indeed stereotype with its classes. You don't see the Assassins look like sleek desert-dwellers hopped up on opium - no, they're ninja. Why? Because people think assassin = ninja. If the majority (or at least, a large amount) of the people think that Dervish = spinning cutter with twinkle-toes, I'm willing to bet Anet will comply just to give them something remotely familiar to work with. But the stereotyping is universal. Male warriors are beefy barbarians with a stern look of constipated determination; most female characters have at least one revealing armour-set that offers an impressive AL for the few square inches of skin it protects. See anything familiar here? And you see how this doesn't necessarily tie up to real-world expectations? --Black Ark 03:27, 20 July 2006 (CDT)


 * The official notes from ANet do not mention whirling. And I already said, if there IS an attack (or even an attribute) called Whirling, I have no problem putting that reference there. But, to put in the article about "Dervish" that "Dervishes are known for their Whirling dances" that is compeltely uncalled for and incorrect as well. The correct statement is" Dervishes are mistakenly believed by many Western people to be whirling dancers" which is irrelevant to the article about the Dervish class. This is NOT wikipedia, this is GuildWiki. We are not going to discuss people's common stereotypes about Dervishes in the class article.
 * Again... If ANet makes a skill or a class of skills based on Whirling, feel free to add the reference there, and I will feel free to add the note that it is a common stereotype. However, that does not belong here. Placing it here is confirming a false stereotype.
 * Finally, regarding 1Rv, you voilated it, not me. You put a comment, I RVed, you didn't like that. Read up there you're saying you "put it back in." Sounds like RV to me. In any case, I am not accusing you of violating anything, I don't care. --Karlos 03:51, 20 July 2006 (CDT)


 * That Dervishes are known as whirling dancers is definetly correct, at least in the western world. The expression "to be known as ...." does not necessarily mean that the perception is correct. I'm German, and I know that abroad Germans are known as rigid, humorless and obsessed with order and formality. Even worse, they are known as Nazis. That stereotype is all over American movies and computer games. Off course this doesn't do the Germans justice, but I have to face the fact that we are known as such.
 * As for "whirling" not mentioned in the official notes from ANet, only in the GameSpot preview, I consider the GameSpot preview as pretty much official, because the input for it has been given to GameSpot exclusively by ANet. Based on that, it can be taken as a given that "whirling" will be a prominent feature of the dervish, and in that case it does make sense to comment on the origin of inspiration for this. It is not irrelevant. Time will show. Less than 1 week 'til the preview.
 * For now, maybe you should head over to the GWGuru Nightfall forum and comment on this thread titled "Whirling Dervish". --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]]  08:53, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
 * ANet may not be trying to expand into the Middle East, but they're trying to grow the market in Europe, and Arabs make up a significant portion of the population in a lot of European countries, offending them is a bad business move, just like basing a nation in Campaign 4 on French or Italian stereotypes would be a bad business move. Even if they're not the target market, NC Europe wouldn't want to alienate a sizeable chunk of their customer base, so I doubt that anything unintentionally offensive is going to make it into the final release. That said, I'm pretty sure that some unintentionally offensive material will slip through the cracks into the closed beta, and I think there's a fairly good chance that some of that material will survive into the PvE preview, if anyone spots something offensive, they'd probably be best off bringing it up on the forum of a major European fansite or emailing NC Europe. -- Gordon Ecker 22:27, 25 July 2006 (CDT)

My view: if only spcific skills have "whirling", then I agree with Karlos. If an entire attribute line is proven to be about whirling, then I think it deserves to be put in the Profession article (as opposed to limiting it to the attribute article). If it's only the scythe attack animation that involve something like Cyclone Axe, then I don't htink it's worth mentioning at all. However, if the scythe attack animation involves something very elaboratly dance-like (and spinning/whriling), then I think it deserves mentioning in the profession article that the animation is most likely inspired by a mistaken Western stereotype. - 19:20, 20 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Doesn't Hundred Blades also have a "whirling" animation? &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 19:27, 20 July 2006 (CDT)
 * No. Slash, then slash in opposite direction. Cyclone Axe has a whirling animation though. Before you ask, Triple Chop does not whirl either. I wouldn't know about Whirling Axe or, while we're off-topic, Whirlwind - but I do know that Whirling Defense doesn't live up to its promise of, uh, whirling. Shame, what? --Black Ark 06:46, 21 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I don't know. I thought it only hits things in front of you (foe and adjacent to foe, so nothing behind your back) - 19:45, 20 July 2006 (CDT)

well triple chop DOES hit target foe AND adjacent foes(meaning foes adjacent to YOU), cyclone axe JUST hits foes adjacent to you and hundred blades hits target foe and foes adjacent to THAT foe. back on topic, i would think that the dervish would have some sort of "whirling" attack because scythes are just shaped that way ;) Samurai snack 17:29, 23 July 2006 (CDT)

Attribute Info
The attribute info from User:roofle originated here: http://www.guildwars.com/events/ingame/gwn-pvppreview.php --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 12:32, 25 July 2006 (CDT)

Mysticism
Just wondering: as it literally states, "Whenever an Enchantment ends..." Does that mean whenever ANY enchantment end? It doesn't specifically state that the enchantment has to be only on the Dervish itself. Could it be any enchantment in radar range? Just on your team? Just ones that the Dervish itself has cast? Or is it just a typo and means only enchantments on yourself? Because if it is any of the ones other than the later, team-wide enchantment spamming (Aegis, etc.) with 7-8 Dervishes could mean complete broken insanity in any 8v8 arena.--Tarutaru 14:27, 26 July 2006 (CDT)
 * That's what GW.com says, but I'd assume it's actually just enchantments on the dervish until we get to see it in game on Friday. --68.142.14.19 14:30, 26 July 2006 (CDT)
 * i think itd be any enchantment cast by the dervish itself. Detraya fullvear
 * I see three likely scenarios.
 * It procs whenever an enchantment on you ends.
 * It procs whenever one of your Dervish enchantments ends.
 * It procs whenever one of your single target enchantments ends.
 * I'm hoping for option 1 or option 3. I doubt that it works like enchantment reaping or lets you use Aegis or Order of Pain to completely replenish your energy. -- Gordon Ecker 21:33, 26 July 2006 (CDT)


 * The way I see it... 10 Mysticism + Monk secondary with a bit of Protection Prayers and Reversal of Fortune/Guardian would be pretty powerful. - Greven 11:52, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

And suddenly, Burning Speed got even better! Cool. --Black Ark 12:04, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

Overpowered?
I tried the Dervish out tonight, and while I'm having to restrain myself from leaping around with delight, I just have to wonder if they aren't a bit overpowered as they are right now.

Just as an example, Heart of Holy Flame and Grenth's Fingers. If you have 20 Energy, you can spam both these skills and do around 160 damage to all nearby opponents, and their recharge is only 8 seconds so you can do it all over again very quickly. Of course your Energy won't last at that rate, but that seems incredibly powerful to me. Just charge into a group of enemies and "Enchant Bomb".

And that's leaving out Scythes (higher max damage than a Hammer...Wild Blow indeed), the Elite Forms, and all their other skills. I wonder if they'll be toned down for Nightfall after this. Arshay Duskbrow 02:16, 28 July 2006 (CDT)

well i agree that the damage output and higher damage than hammers?!(hammers have been burned, crunched, eaten and spat out again) is a little too much power... but remember: dervish do have weak armour(70), so it has the same potential that an assassin has to deal damage quick and run away but i believe combined with monk secondary, it will become an even more powerful asset in any group. /bite lower lip Samurai snack 02:27, 28 July 2006 (CDT)

I love it. So much. Unlike assassins, the Dervish can use many spells and enchantments for defense, whereas assassins just mainly have "get the hell out of there"-skills (which they subsequently fail to use). Sure, this all will get toned down horribly, but on the other hand - if they do stay in power for prolonged spans of time, there'll just be an influx of disenchanting mesmers/necromancers (and, in fact, I can already imagine a perfect combination of necromancer and dervish for the sole purpose of disenchanting enemies). I'd say Dervish will end up dominating the battlefield for a while - at least, until those mesmers, necromancers and other dervishes end up dominating them. Sorry, I'm giddy. These classes beat the everlasting crap out of the Factions-classes, is all. --Black Ark 03:49, 28 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I really dislike the Paragon. Kinda ugly armor, kinda ugly skill icons, truly irredeemably butt-ugly movement animations, ridiculous casting animation and mechanics that are far less interesting than both the Ritualist and Assassin. They did a decent job with the Dervish (except for some skill bugs), though. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 02:30, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

Yeah, but the thing is, disenchantment would probably just HELP the Dervish. A lot of their enchantments seem to have benefits when they end, and they'll also be getting the Health and Energy bonuses from Mysticism. I can foresee Shatter Enchantment's popularity going up dramatically, but still... Arshay Duskbrow 04:03, 28 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I just tried a D/A PvP build with Avatar of Balthazar as the elite and then assassin skills. Needless to say, for one minute (enough to bring down 2-3 people) I was a terror in the arena. An Assassin with 110 armor moving 33% faster and doing holy dmg. Pretty impressive. With 16 Mysticism, this could be a very troublesome build. The biggest threat was anti-melee hexes (price of failure, spirit of failure, SS).. But with moderate hex removal (or in an HoH party), a few of these would be a wrecking crew. No need for IWAY when you can just go in with an irremovable Form and kick butt. --Karlos 06:20, 28 July 2006 (CDT)

I've Been using a D/A with shadow arts and it's pretty effective. The only issue is how tricky it is to position yourself to take advantage of the whirling attack. But I can see how Anet have tried to limit the power of Scythe attacks but I think they have overlooked a W/D with skills like power attack and wild blow. That said, Dervishes are far from invincible and a few interrupts can put a Dervish to their knees, so I'm not too worried about being overpowered.

I'd be happier with a more consistent damage range, something like 20-30. Better/more consistent than both sword and axe, but of course the slower attack speed and two-handed nature would balance it out, and it would leave hammers as the max damage dealers. Arshay Duskbrow 02:21, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

It seems that as the weekend proceeds, groups are starting to undrstand dervishes and they arent nearly as "invincible" as before. Yes they are very strong, easy to use, and versitile. But a good ranged team can pick apart a dervish team using kiting and spikes. I have seen several builds and team types evolve and watchin HoH i am seeing less 6 dervish teams at the end. I really am beginning to think that people not really knowing how to react to the new class was a large factor in them seeimg so overpowered. Yes they are still very strong, but we'll see soon what A-net has in store to ensure that they arent overpowered. Midnight08 22:40, 30 July 2006 (CDT)