Talk:Order of Undeath

In action.
2-3 vamp horrors are enough to counter the health sacrifice. Liking this alot more than Flesh Golem.

Vampiric horrors
this + vampy minions. --mindule

Yes, this should make an Orders necro a bit interesting. It's basically Order of Pain for your minions. Janl 16:16, 22 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Does have to be vamp horrors though. Just try spamming any other kind with this active and see how long you last. Good thing I mainly use vamps. -- Sunyavadin 15:44, 23 September 2006 (BST)

This is good....>=)

Just use a properly timed Taste of Death. Simple. --Zinger314 09:50, 23 September 2006 (CDT)

Don't forget your Aura of the Lich. I think keeping this up constantly would be better'n a flesh golem in many cases.

Well...uh...Aura of the Lich is also Elite. I think one cast of this per battle is sufficient, since you'll be annihiliating everything. --Zinger314 10:33, 23 September 2006 (CDT)

You'll definately want to tell your team monk that you will be using this skill. If you stack the sup runes up the health sacrifice shouldn't be too hard to counter. 1 vamp horror would be enough to keep you alive. Signet of lost souls combined with healing breeze for an N/Mo would also be enough to keep you alive. Stone Cold

Nightfall gave us a lot of what we wanted. Touch ranger counters, shock war counters, and finally, some good MM elites. Step aside, Flesh Golem. DancingZombies 21:21, 23 September 2006 (CDT)

It says "Lose" not "Sacrifice" 2% life. But... how does this go with Dark Aura? If it triggers...--Crazytreeboy 07:58, 25 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Hmmmmm 55 mm anyone? stay back and spam this and your summons while u use mending and breeze to self heal..... --Midnight08 12:20, 24 September 2006 (CDT)

Does this skill affect allies minions? Ubermancer 16:24, 25 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Might as well have named it "suicide" -Thomas 10:50, 26 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Doubt it, OoA is the same osrt of thing afterall, yet that does fine with heal area and an infuser &mdash; Skuld 11:06, 26 September 2006 (CDT)


 * it only targets your minions... Jaimes Laig Romarto 18:06, 5 January 2007 (CST)

Pffft 55 hp MM? How about 1 hp MM ^^. 0 sacrifice the only problem would be getting the minions to attack, they don't follow calls like henchies do they? (Not a fifty five 00:35, 29 September 2006 (CDT))


 * No, they don't, NotA55. They zerg and are constantly in aggressive mode. I have to stop forgetting to sign my comments. Finrod 02:42, 29 September 2006 (CDT)

Not suicide.
Bone Horrors attack every 3.17 seconds. In a perfect world, you'd cast this FIVE SECOND ENCHANTMENT, your minions will all attack once and all hit. What's 10 x 2? 20%. So in a perfect world, you'd sac about 30% of your health. In a non perfect world, your minion's attacks would be at the very end of that 3.17 seconds. EVEN IF every one of your minions attacks twice in that five seconds, you could not possible sac over 50%. Ever. There isn't enough time. Unless you insist on using fiends. So that's a 10%-50% sac. Take note that Taste of Death has a 1/4 cast time and should heal you 420 HP if you're at 16 Death like an intelligent minion master. If that's more then 50% health, you have a serious problem. Dark Aura, on the other hand, is where you get complicated. The Dark Aura can damage you any where from 21 to 420 damage (Remember. 1/4 of a second cast time on Taste of Death). That can do, on the other hand, anywhere from 53 to a whopping, though aggro breaking, 1060 shadow damage. Seeing as Shambling Horrors give you a two for one deal, I see nothing wrong with abusing Taste of Death for your survival. Translation: Anybody who is using Blood Renewal, insisting on Vampiric Horrors, or still wasting attributes in healing or blood in any other way obviously didn't sit down and doo the math for himself. Feel free to fix this up at add this to the tips in parts or as a whole. I'd like to see a varity of Minion Masters to come, so let's try to make sure one of the new elites isn't seen as useless. (EDIT:) One last thing. Since this adds +17 damage to your minions attacks, it can add anywhere from 17 damage to 340 damage ONTOP of your minions attacks. To sum of Order of Undeath, you can get high DPS minions who can tank, no longer having the chose between the two. (EDIT EDIT:) All the calculations are done without a +1 20% staff wrapping for Death, seeing as that's the prefered MM choice, results may vary. Alt F Four 06:52, 7 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Alt F Four:In a perfect world, you'd cast this FIVE SECOND ENCHANTMENT Unlike most orders skills, this is *not* an enchantment. --waywrong 22:29, 21 November 2006 (CST)

omg

 * has nerdgasm on skill*-Onlyashadow, Top 100 Guild 14:55, 27 October 2006 (CDT)

Goodbye fleshy. Hello Orders... MM?

This skill is leetsauce. Shido 18:49, 26 February 2007 (CST)

Dark Aura comment wrong?
I believe someone tested this during the preview and determined that the life loss is not counted as a sacrifice and thus does not trigger dark aura. This should be retested and the comment possibly removed.
 * Tested. Only the sac at the start triggers Dark Aura.  The 2% life losses do not. Merengue 13:14, 4 November 2006 (CST)
 * Since it's been tested, I've edited the main article to reflect that the health loss that occurs when your minions attack while under OoU is not sacrifice. [[Image:Light of Deliverance.jpg|20px]] Finrod 14:02, 20 November 2006 (CST)

Damage Bonus
I may be mistaken, it is rather late at night But it adds the bonus damage after armor reduction doesn't it? I took a bone horror against 100 AL and it jumped from 10-17 to 30-37 I'm Asuming that the 10s were bad hits/the 37s were crits...but anyway, is it added after armor like it seems? Because if so it seems significantly more useful now Dazra 04:30, 2 December 2006 (CST)
 * Yeah it does.. I feel like an idiot now, it is OOP for iniosn after all x.x Dazra 14:04, 2 December 2006 (CST)

Advantage of using with Fiends
Vampiric Horrors are much safer, but Bone Fiends will deal out a lot more damage. Enough that I think it would be worthwhile to use them instead, especially since the self healing is probably manageable with Taste of Death.

With 16 Death Magic:

Average DPS of 10 Vampiric Horrors without OoU: ((17+49)/2)*10/3.17 = ~104

Average DPS of 10 Bone Fiends without OoU: ((17+49)/2)*10/1.93 = ~171

Average DPS of 10 Vampiric Horrors with OoU: ((17+49)/2 + 17)*10/3.17 = ~157

Average DPS of 10 Bone Fiends with OoU: ((17+49)/2 + 17)*10/1.93 = ~259

Oh hoh! What's this? They still do less damage than Fiends without OoU! I didn't expect that when I went to write this. With this fact revealed... What's the point? 10 fiends without OoU are still superior, and with OoU they are just plain rediculous. Let's see how much health you lose...

They'll cost you 2% health every 1.93 sec. for 5 sec.

5/1.93 = ~2.59 hits multiply that by 10, you get 26ish hits. Multiply by 2% you get a little over 50%. Add the initial 10% sac and you lose a total of 60% or so. I don't think it can kill you if you start at 100%. --Shadowleaf 13:36, 4 December 2006 (CST)
 * Er, well, It's kinda hard to get a full army of vamp horrors. Which is why almost everyone has bone fiends too. --[[Image:explosion2.jpg]] (-Da*Man-) [[Image:explosion2.jpg]] 15:43, 5 December 2006 (CST)

with out vamp horors taist of pain may be a good idea


 * I wouldn't use this skill, after seeing the calculations...especially with the saccing. Anyhow anyone know if this damage is reduced by Angelic Protection?-- &middot;&middot;&middot;&raquo; Life Infusion &middot;&middot;&middot; 16:21, 22 December 2006 (CST)
 * No, same for order of pain not reduced by PS. sacrifice cant be reduced Jaimes Laig Romarto 16:00, 13 January 2007 (CST)

There is a reason for using both.--Swift Thief 15:51, 18 February 2007 (CST)

Builds
Any possible builds for this? I'm back to Order of undeath with Jagged bones screwed now.. Looking at other alternative. Do share and contribute thanks all
 * Order of Undeath works pretty well. Even with 10 Bone fiends. The health sacrifice isn't as big as you think (maybe 40-50% depending on how many shots the fiends get off), but a Taste of Pain (gain around 150 health if targeted on something under 50%, and Signet of Lost Souls) is enough to boost you back up. If those options aren't satisfying, just taste of death after an BOTM (to bring minion to full) to completely fill yourself up.--GTPoompt 19:20, 2 February 2007 (CST)

So it doesn't which minion i create... thats nice to hear
 * Not exactly, bone fiends attack faster than the other melee minions. You'll get a lot more hits within the 5 seconds with a pack of fiends (at the cost of sacrificing more health). &bull; Dekan 14:57, 3 February 2007 (CST)

What if you combined this with "Go for the Eyes!"? Do you get significantly more damage output? -Ellisthion 05:03, 21 February 2007 (CST)
 * In the talk page for GftE, it's noted that the skill doesn't cause max damage for minions. And I don't think bonus damage has any synergies with critical hits either. &bull; Dekan 18:22, 21 February 2007 (CST)

math in the notes section
I just can't follow the calculations.Bone Fiends attack with 1 attack per 1.9 seconds. Using the average attacks in 5 seconds would be 2.6 attacks per 5 seconds. This value was used for the fiend calculations. The order can't be maintained without downtime, so the average attacks per 5 seconds can't be used. No matter what you do, a fiend can't attack more then 2 times per 5 seconds. 3 attacks are just not possible. It's just like in any national statistic, where a woman in country XYZ gets 1,7 children in her life. 0.7 childs don't exist. So, the factor for all calculations must be 2 for fiends, not 2,6. Horrors: 3.17 seconds -> 1 attack per 5 seconds -> life sac = 10% per cast + (10 Horrors * 1 attack * 2%) = 30% Damage from order: 10 Horrors * 1 attack * 17 (lvl16) = 170 Health loss of a casual MM (sup rune Death Magic) = 400 health * 30% = 120 health in 5 seconds = 12 pips Fiends: 1.9 seconds -> 2 attack per 5 seconds -> life sac = 10% per cast + (10 Fiends * 2 attack * 2%) = 50% Damage from order: 10 Fiends * 2 attack * 17 (lvl16) = 340 Health loss of a casual MM (sup rune Death Magic) = 400 health * 50% = 200 health in 5 seconds = 34 pips Nemren 07:20, 7 February 2007 (CST)
 * logic error, it's just one of those days ... Nemren 14:49, 7 February 2007 (CST)

They CAN hit 3 times: if their first hit is just a little after you cast(~1 second or less)...

Balthazar's Spirit?
Does the health loss trigger Balthazar's Spirit?--69.34.217.27 22:14, 18 February 2007 (CST)
 * Health loss isn't damage. --Fyren 07:04, 19 February 2007 (CST)

your?
dose if affect just your minions or if thers 2 mms in the group dose all the minions get affected?
 * It says 'your minions'. --220.233.103.77 06:04, 22 February 2007 (CST)

well so dose blood of the master but it heals allys minions too
 * BotM has never said "your minions." --Fyren 17:39, 22 February 2007 (CST)

your undead so it dosent say minions but its the same thing
 * The key word in BotM is "allied." --Fyren 01:35, 24 February 2007 (CST)

Rather then argueing over the wording wouldnt it be better to test this hmm?--Gene195 16:51, 30 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Considering that 2 people have shown why this affects only one guys minions, that would probably be a waste of time. Lord of all tyria 16:54, 30 June 2007 (CDT)


 * i guess but i havnt actually seen any proof other then peoples claims that it doesnt it would be nice for some actual prof.--Gene195 17:26, 30 June 2007 (CDT)
 * plain and simple, would need tested. the text says your, so let it be assumed they are only yours and not your parties.  if wording is incorrect for this skill, it would not be the first time.  many skills on wiki say "althoug the skill specifies ____ this will actually work on ____".  --Mooseyfate 21:27, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Comment

 * For obvious reasons, this spell is extremely dangerous to the caster. Although the damage dealt is incredibly powerful, it requires very good timing-activating the skill at the wrong time is usually lethal.

I'd disagree with the "very good timing" part, since the only time you don't use this is when you're about to die, and even if you have healers who have any sense, they'd know better than to not be healing your first. This may of course be slighty down to the fact my usual hero/hench build has a healer a prot and a defensive spirit spammer (Past the first few kills, I'm the only one needed to do damage). Ckal Ktak 11:55, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

This + Winnowing
At 16 Death, +17 from OoU, and Winnowing causes +4 for physical damage (hopefully noone is carrying Greater Conflagration!) gives +21 per hit, and with 10 Minions attacking that adds up quick, +210 bonus damage every strike cycle. Gimme four B/P's too, another Orders Necro with OotV and OoP, one Prot and one Heal Monk, and I think we have a new team build. (T/C) 16:27, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * OotV and OoP? Why bother bringing both, OotV no longer synergizes with OoP and hasn't for a while. 76.102.172.202 16:40, 26 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah, forgot about that...I posted that before I ever tried playing Orders. Anyways. One OoU MM, one OotV Orders Necro, Monks and BP. I tested it a while ago on a minor scale (no B/P henchmen available...) and it seems like it's workable anyways. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 17:17, 26 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I played this a while ago with a Critical Spear (Focused Anger+GftE+AggRefrain). Let me tell you it was some shit man. We cleared lvl 24-28 mobs in mere seconds.

N/Me Arcane Mimicry (Aura of the Lich) + Order of Undeath: ???
Does Aura of the Lich cut the life loss in 1/4th, or does that not work? I'm thinking it might make for an interesting combo if your hero carries the Aura, or if you carry the aura and make your hero the MM.


 * I can't think of a single situation where taking the time to do more than one elite skill was worth it. -Kumdori 20:21, 14 July 2007 (CDT)

Searing Flames + Mimicry Elemental Attunement TheDrunkenHobo 12:53, 15 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Healer's covenant + healer's boon.--71.72.56.53 09:07, 20 July 2007 (CDT)

Why not use Arcane Mimicry on another MM that has Flesh Golem? OoU + Flesh Golem + 9 bone fiends = crazy MM build --Arthas 05:56, 22 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Flesh Golem ftw! Zulu Inuoe 14:15, 21 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Flesh Golem can suck it. It's fun to see it run around, but when it comes to DPS, this totally blows Flesh Golem out of the water. More of a PVE skill than AB skill than Flesh Golem, but it's still good. Flesh Golem for AB, this for PVE. I was using it earlier tonight and i'd cast it once or twice. 8 level 18 bone fiends cleared a group of level 28 harpies in seconds. Plus, this has a much cooler icon than Flesh Golem.--Darksyde Never Again 04:51, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Flesh Golem is the tank, it doesn't suffer from DP, can be recycled and doesn't take away party slots. Fleshie works better in PvE, in most cases at least. <.< In AB you can just lure it to AoE... J Striker 06:08, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Synergy with EotN Skill
I added a note to this skill about combined it with Masochism. With Vampiric Horrors and at least 8 soul reaping that's a hearty return of both health and energy. Considering Masochism lasts for 30 seconds unconditionally with a 10 second recharge, you can can keep running Order of Undeath forever so long as you have at least 5 vampiric horrors or good healing. --Cjad 03:02, 2 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Just had it pointed out by a guildie that I should've read the description; health lost from each minion attack isn't a sacrifice. Lol, gg me. --Cjad [[Image:CJM_symbol_tiny.jpg|C.J.M.‎]] 13:37, 2 September 2007 (CDT)


 * Many of these posts (not just this particular one) would imply that perhaps people should actually physically test things before inanely blabbering about them. Dr Needles 13:42, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm
It would appear that this skill is from the Night Fall campaign and thus cannot be used by those who own just Prophecies, Just Factions, or Prophecies and Eye to the North, or Factions and Eye to the North, or Prophecies, Factions, and Eye to the North.

Yes...your point being?L yra V alo  17:37, 7 September 2007 (CDT)

Thx's for that helpful explanation captain obvious.

I vaguely think he was trying to be funny, and possibly was. Dr Needles 13:44, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Sac'ing And Triggering
Recently Ive Been working on an AB build for MM's. It appears as i have tested numerous times. Masochism DOES infact Trigger by the use of OoU and gave me GREAT energy management. But Dark Aura as i have also recently tested has not yet triggered. But I have gotten Masochism to trigger everytime by simply casting Masochism before i use OoU. I Will keep testing and will show any further results. If you wanna test, the best spot for this is in The Isle Of The Nameless. Fire The catapult to get corpses then bring them up as minions. Vhang 69.69.242.95 00:03, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the energy is from the 10% sac at the beginning. [[Image:Thoughtful-new-sig.jpg]] Thoughtful 00:06, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Some people just can't put two to two together. Yeah OoU triggers Masochism when it activates, but it doesn't trigger when minions hit and trigger your life lose, get it?
 * Aura of the Lich also isn't supposed to reduce lost life from health sacrifice. Gotta test this thing once I get home... J Striker 06:11, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

It does not work. The energy the anon gained was either from initial OoU sacrifice + Masochism or provided by Soul Reaping. J Striker 18:05, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Nerf? Or simply update? Finding out now.
Order of Undeath: increased recharge to 15; decreased Energy cost to 5. Functionality changed to: "All but one of your minions die. If that minion is non-Elite, it deals +5..30 more damage, has +5..20 Health regeneration, and attacks 33% faster (20 seconds)." -Grim Lich. PS going to go skill hunting and then going to try out this skill to see if wtf happened was good or bad.
 * I could actually see me using this skill on my mm, seems much more appealing without the constant health loss whenever a minion attacks. Maybe a better version of Verata's Sacrifice now?  }{ Ipo™ }{  00:58, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

It's a strange skill. Hard to use. Works great with Shamblings, cause when they die the jaggeds show up. The one minon is super charged and for 20secs. It's effictient to raise one shamblind (or fiend I guess) cast OoU then raise others. -Grim lich
 * I wonder if Celestial Horrors are "elite" minions. If not super charged level 25 minion on a rampage anyone?  }{ Ipo™ }{  01:23, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

This skill is officially dead now. What a waste. :( (However, it does make Ritualist Necromancers more viable.) (T/C) 02:34, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Not really, Signet of Creation+Jagged Bones would probably still work better, tbh. If the Minion is chosen at random, this will be even worse, because you're best bet would be to have Minions+1 Fiend and hope you keep the Fiend. If the survivor is determined by the highest health, we may be okay. XD ــѕт.  мıкε  03:05, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorta makes one minion like a pet, imo. Better before; could be a gimmicky thing now though. - [[Image:AdVictoriam1.PNG|19px]] Ad Victoriam  03:46, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Jagged Bones is a horrible skill, ever since they nerfed it to just 3 targets ages ago. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 04:26, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * A pet that can be stolen, can't be controlled, takes double damage from Holy, is under LV20, and has no options for damage reduction. Very useful imo. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 04:28, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * No clue what they were thinking here... Cress Arvein [[Image:Cress sig.JPG]] 04:30, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You can get L20 Bone Fiends under the right conditions. But yeah, sucks. On the other hand, has great synergy with Verata's Sacrifice!!!!!oneone [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 04:45, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * YAY you can get +30 regen! lol you minion will last quite a while, good job. What have you accomplished? youve effectively exchanged yourself for a ranger without skills. Roland Cyerni 04:48, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, with Death Nova on all the other minions, this may have some use. Cress Arvein [[Image:Cress sig.JPG]] 04:50, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It's hard enough to do that as a player when they are all standing still. But that is a pretty cool idea. 1000+ damage minion bomb! [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:02, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed, this blows now. It was okay before, but now it doesn't really belong on any bar, even those mentioned below.  I wouldn't use this even if it were non-elite.  Nice job anet. --GW-Seventh 10:27, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I really have to agree with 7th. I did some elaborate testing on this setting up 2 / heroes & 1 / with this elite.  The only summons were Bone Fiends.  While it generally conserved energy really well for the Rangers and did okay damage for a ranger Team, it was just totally out-classed when I replaced it on all 3 heroes with Jagged Bones instead (despite having no energy management for the the Rangers).  Anet needs to either Revert, or remove the damage bonus and just turn it into an Elite Veratas-Sac /w IAS. --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]

I figured out what this skill is for. Well one the ways. This makes the first minion(if your soloing or with one hero) strong enough to kill enough to get more corpses. Kind of like Flesh golem. But it can be used in other ways. It also makes said minon almost invincible, and (easpecially with fiends) makes them damn strong. I'm going to try this in Pvp To see what happens -Grim Lich

How about this, 1 MM with OoU and a Me/N or N/Me with Arcane echo and Jagged Bones. Enchant as many of the minions with Jagged bones and death nova then cast OoU and boom super minion bomb instantly replaced with fresh minions BeeD 10:07, 8 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Still wondering though, are Celestial Horrors considered elite. If not, lvl 25 minion on a rampage ftw! :P. Should be tested asap.  }{ Ipo™ }{  10:12, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * "All but one of your minions die." hmmm... an instant super death nova spike...--LaDoncella 13:00, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That's what Signet of Creation was for, tbh, but it had to be timed. How does this skill chose which minions survive, because, optimally, you would want to keep one Bone Fiend (for the DPS after the minion bomb)? ــѕт.  мıкε  13:11, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * This is better I reckon. This is a massive nuke on demand so it is far superior to SoCreation. Will have to look into minion selection. Maybe it selects the nearest ones? or the ones with lowest health? or highest degen? Edit: Oh dear I think I have it. A two char uber nuke One N/rt with and another with . Explosive growth triggers off both the summoning and jagged bones, so when you trigger OoUon Death Nova enchanted minions while the char is under explosive growth, you get uber nuke as both death nova and explosive trigger simultaneously.BeeD 13:13, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, I guess I'll just go back to the old Flesh Golem. --68.159.94.183 18:09, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Using two MMs kind of sucks, tbh. ــѕт.  мıкε  18:12, 8 August 2008 (UTC)


 * One sucks. 2 suck. 4 wtfpwn. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  18:15, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

^ If you want to get more use out of your hero, although I'm not sure how they are with Malign Intervention+Verata's. If they don't use it well, you could use it instead. :/ ــѕт.  мıкε  18:31, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

If used while not targetting one the youngest minion survives and if you target a minion, this one survives. Note that it can buff greatly a vampiric horror : it increases both attack frequency and health gain. Use it with a shambling horror army to buff one while still maintaining a reasonable number of minions. I also tried it an a hero : they use it whenever possible but never death nova those who are going to die. Terribad :/ --86.70.149.198 19:38, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You can also try it with a Bone Fiend for more damage because they attack faster (and are ranged, so no moving from foe to foe). ــѕт.  мıкε  20:09, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

^^Re: Verata's Gaze / Malign Intervention, heroes don't use this combination at all well, unless you're looking to make a more subtle form of a Minion Bomber. i.e. give them Virulence & Putrid Bile somewhere and drop Verata's, then they cast on the raised minion resulting from Malign. Klefer 18:05, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Could this mean the beginning of those minion factories in HA and possibly TA? - Having 7 supercharged minions with enough regeneration to stay alive sounds good and you'll have 8 ppl with about 6 free (non elite) skills left. I can imagine that this aint that bad. If only they were gaining health instead of health regen you could be sure that they'd survive. Still think this is a good skill to turn the tie of battle 62.194.247.7 23:08, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I think I'm gonna have fun with the update. Used the old version on my main MM build, but having a near invincible Vampire looks too good to pass up. Kaze 05:56, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * This allows you to deal damage with one minion and 2-3 minion skills. The rest can be direct damage spells and corpse exploiting spells, while still doing good damage with one long lasting minion. Worked pretty well when testing last night. --A Child Of Midnight 13:31, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * They might have made the skill better for AB, but I'd much rather have the old one for PvE. >.> ــѕт.  мıкε  15:07, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed, whoever used the old version of this in PvE will realise what a scandalous waste of a skill this now is. Suggestion: keep this version for PvP and revert to the old version for PvE w. maybe a slight decrease in damage, increase recharge time etc. Now I'm really convinced A#Net are cracking up! This was the ONLY decent MM skill left and a very tricky cap when you first get to the desolation, Completely screwed up imho. Now you're forced to take a Curses Necro along too to do any real damage Klefer 05:35, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * easy cap just buy an elite tome 86.155.95.252 15:27, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Big Heals
I like to use Dwayna's Sorrow on my MM to provide sporadic bonus heals. If 9 minions die upon using OOU while enchanted with Dwayna's Sorrow, you could have a massive party-wide heal for a few hundred points, depending on your healing Prayers rank, and still have a supercharged minion leftover to hold down the fort while you replenish your ranks. Altogether, it might be used well in large standoff battles that produce a lot of corpses, and that might have multiple minion masters, like the Battle of Turai's Procession, Dzagonur Bastion (mission), and Vizunah_Square_(mission). Ninjatek 23:48, 23 August 2008 (UTC)