User talk:Auron of Neon/Archive 13

'''This is an archive of my talk page, from June 21st, 2008 to July 30th, 2008. Please don't edit it; leave comments and messages on my talk page.'''

May I ask...
...why you promoted R.Phalange when the community made it obvious that they felt it was a bad idea?-- (Talk) (Contr.) 00:25, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Wiki != democracy. - 71.224.123.149 00:32, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Never said it did, I just wanted a reason why Auron promoted him. Sorry if I implied otherwise.--[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 00:33, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Certainly. He's proven his ability to be smart with block/delete/prot tools and is a trusted member of GWW. While some may say he shouldn't be "rewarded" for being good on another wiki, he doesn't become a different person when he edits a different wiki.
 * I've talked with him many times in the past few months, and have watched his responses to different situations. I've been pleased with them, and trust his ability to be a sysop here. We'll see how he pans out, but he won't be an outright failure or anything close to it. - Auron 00:39, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I want to add more to my "he doesn't become a different person when he edits a different wiki" point made earlier. Many people see sysop as a coveted position, something to strive for, yadda yadda... it really isn't that big a deal. On the lowest level, it's a set of tools that a user can bring to play to help sort out the wiki. However, because admins on this wiki are also expected to police themselves, care is given to only promote trusted users. Knowing when to use the tools and being able to prevent oneself from abusing them are really the only requirements for adminship; however, if you've proven yourself incapable of either, you really aren't suited for the job, even if you're super nice or super knowledgeable of wikicode.
 * R.Phalange can keep himself in check and has demonstrated exceptional use of sysop tools already. Some may protest his attitude, but I'm sure you'll now find it to be satisfactory... as long as yours is, in turn (that's a collective "yours," not really aimed at anyone specific). - Auron 02:45, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The problem most people have with this is that we have not had sufficient time to judge R.Phalange's character for ourselves, and I think that is a very justified position, especially since he felt he needed to use a different username on this wiki. It's not technically sockpuppeting, no, but it had the same intent: to free himself of the history/reputation of his GWW username.  If he has a good reputation at GWW, why not use the same username here so that the reputation can follow him?  It's illogical.
 * If R.Phalange had waited even another month, to give himself time to build a reputation here and to let the stain of wikidrama fade away, I have no doubt that most of his RfA's "oppose" comments would have changed to "support". As it is, his promotion at this time seems unwarranted and, yes, undeserved.  It might have made a difference had we known who he was on GWW, but instead we were forced to make those RfA comments based on the mere 22 days since he registered here.  Not to mention that he didn't even state why he felt he should be promoted, nor did you make any comment in support of him.  Either of those could have helped the situation greatly.
 * I'm not saying that this promotion was wrong in and of itself, only that the timing and handling of it could have been much better. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 03:13, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * To little gain, though. I could have waited a year and he'd have gotten full support votes. Wouldn't have mattered either way. - Auron 03:33, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * It would have made all the difference. Why do you think that people would have changed their votes over the course of a year? Because during that time he/she would have had the opportunity to demonstrate their abilities to handle the role of a sysop on this wiki. I do not consider edits like this to be sysop material. Given the way this R.Phalange's Rfa unequivocally failed, I'm clearly not the only person sharing this view.


 * There is no history on the GWiki of promoting someone with a handful of edits to a sysop because of their actions on another wiki or because they're a friend of a bureaucrat, with the exception of some of Gravewit's original promotions such as User:Adam.skinner. I don't remember ever seeing any change to GW:ADMIN reflecting this change, although I do read Further, because the administrator's character is well-known before his promotion, abuses of administrator power simply do not happen. Plenty has already been said about the role of bureaucrats recently so I don't wish to harp on but to me a bureaucrat's role is to enforce policy in the way that benefits the community as greatly as possible. This may not always follow the popular vote but the community should always have faith that the decisions that a bureaucrat makes are in the interest in the community, even if they don't know it at the time.


 * How has this promotion, which contravenes our current policies and processes benefited the GWiki community, particularly when you will not even reveal who R.Phalange is? I believe your own interactions with him off wiki can basically be discarded when deciding a person's ability to perform the duties a sysop is required to on this wiki. The administrators need to have the trust of the community and currently I have no faith in R.Phalange's administration skills and I am fast losing faith in your ability to perform your duties as well.


 * Alarm bells should already have gone off in your head when a ban tag was place on your user page after you resurrected the rfa, why would you then go and sysop the person? I do not like the idea that the people at the top are running an "old boys" club where friends get a leg up over everybody else. You didn't consult the community or ask for our input before making this decision which was obviously going to be controversial, where is your accountability? Your, "We'll see how he pans out" attitude scares me greatly, sysops are highly regarded members of the community for a reason, we do not promote people on a trial them demote them if they "pan out" to be a bad choice. They must prove them self to be a pillar of the community first. Finally I find it unlikely that a good sysop would accept the position after just a month of editing and getting to know the community and more importantly after the community has clearly expressed their wishes that are that they don't want to see the person sysoped. --Xasxas256 04:27, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The "we'll see how he pans out" attitude doesn't exist. I know he'll be a better sysop than most we currently have. You're correct; we don't promote people on trial and decide if they're good. If I had even the slightest doubt, I wouldn't have promoted.
 * If people took a moment's break from whining, they'd find out exactly who Phalange is, and spend a few minutes reading his edits and people's responses to him on GWW. Just maybe. Although that would be too sensible an option, naturally; the bureaucrat must be corrupt, AGF doesn't exist, etc etc.
 * You are free to have no faith in Phalange's administration skills, but if you have no faith in me, the wiki is truly broken. I've not broken my trust, nor have I ever acted to disrupt/destroy the wiki. I'm a dick - but only that. I don't try to break the wiki down, I don't try to drive away its users. I could probably be very successful at that tbh, but I have zero interest in it whatsoever.
 * This is a trial period for you guys, mostly. There'll be no difference in the end. I know he's capable and headstrong and all that jazz, and he's not going to fail. So instead of waiting a year with him not helping as a sysop, I can use him for that year and by the end of it (or sooner, hopefully), he'll be just as accepted as normal.
 * This wiki had a slight shortage on amazing sysops. We had a few adequate ones, but not very many excellent ones. With Entropy's leaving, we were one under my quota - so instead of wracking this wiki for a person that may or may not be an excellent sysop, I got someone I knew was qualified.
 * I'm not gravewit. I'm more of a tanaric. My decisions might not always be popular, but they're almost always right - especially big ones like this. This isn't some random user, this isn't some IRL friend. He's a solid wiki contributor that has sysop experience and will do an excellent job.
 * And yeah. I didn't do it per policy. But since this wiki needs help in the worst way, I'm willing to go out of the way to find it. Now all we need are regular users that fit the "wikidragon" editing style... - Auron 05:00, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You don't need to "break trust" when you've never earned it to begin with. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 05:04, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Don't be cute, it is not the responsibility of the community to research who a person's monkier is on another wiki. The question was asked, and you refused to answer it. If his or her ability on another wiki is all the proof we should need, then why were we not provided with that proof? Are basically saying that your wishes are greater than the GWiki community? We have RFAs for a reason. A good bureaucrat would have stated these things beforehand and kept us in the loop, not argued them after. Why has there been no transparency in this appointment? If there's one seen from the arguments with Gravewit, it's the transparency is vital to the success of a wiki and one of the important ideals we hold here. Almost none of the old guard circa 2006 is left here with the exception of myself, Pansola and possibly Gem. So just because you don't have as many people beating down your door doesn't make it any better. Those principals and ideals the wiki was founded on were there for a reason and those policies reflected it. I am not accepting you saying "trust me" as a reason to appoint a sysop, particularly when you didn't feel it was necessary to explain to the community first. "My decisions might not always be popular, but they're almost always right - especially big ones like this." This is very worrying and I fail to see how you haven't broken the community's trust, you have gone with your own ideals instead of the GuildWikis. --Xasxas256 05:21, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Has anyone asked him what his GWW user name is? One time? I'm pretty sure there's a problem with that. If I wanted to know who someone was, I'd post on his talk page, not someone else's asking for his information.
 * We have RfAs for a reason; to appease the public. Occasionally we gain insight on the RfA-ee. Since they've rarely done the latter (much more so in this case, when the level of useful feedback was nil), I ditched the facade. As usual, I gained no more insight than I already had on the subject matter (I'd considered the lack of mainspace edits, trolling posts made in conjunction with Banjthulu, seeming newness to the wiki, etc all before I decided to promote).
 * "Those principals and ideals the wiki was founded on were there for a reason and those policies reflected it." I'm pretty sure the bureaucrats did the same shit back then, too - with the exception of very few early RfA's, they've all been absolute jokes. When people think a vote count matters, they stop trying to provide reasoning. At that point, RfA's become pretty useless as a tool, so they mostly get ignored. I realize now that I made the same mistake Entropy did; I shouldn't have opened one to begin with.
 * Why has there been no transparency? The only thing you don't know is who the user is, and that's a combination of both our faults. I haven't given it out, but nobody's asked him, either, so you can't begin to pretend that one's all my fault.
 * I've gone with my ideals of capable sysops over guildwiki's ideal of capable sysops? Not following your point. If you mean all the beating-around-the-bush crap, then right, I didn't follow it; I gave my reasoning for that already. This wiki needs help. In case you didn't notice, it is dying. If nothing ever changes, it will die. The longer we wait, the harder this task of improving it becomes.
 * I'm the only one I've seen trying to change things. Jedi has been a sysop for a good while, and is now a bcrat, but has done jack all to improve the wiki. Same with Entropy - an admirable effort was extended at keeping the wiki afloat, but more is needed or the wiki will dwindle. The influx of users from the Wikia merge has been all but imperceptible, and I think that's partly been the administration not paying close attention to new editors and helping them develop.
 * When this summer camp finishes, I want to work with Wikia staff on possible contests (or any idea, hell) to get new users interested in the wiki. Newer users means new ideas being introduced, and possibly something to give us an "edge" over GWW, and thus gain more users. In the meantime, side projects and improvement drives will pop up, and the wiki will improve visibly.
 * I'll be more open in the future, as I have been in the past. Since you're missing Phalange's identity, and that seems to be a major point of contention... why don't you ask him about it? I'm not even sure he wants his identity to remain a secret. But because I hadn't specifically asked, I decided against breaking any perceived trust and giving it out.
 * Actually, hell, I've given it to JediRogue. It's not a super big secret :/ - Auron 07:48, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I have no qualms with R.Phalange but I have some serious reservations with yourself. I don't presume that a user has a secret identity, why should I have asked who they are on their RFA? Even if I did know they were a prominent member of another wiki I wouldn't have felt it necessary to ask them to reveal themselves anyway, it seemed pretty obvious that their RFA was going to fail. The community only had a reason to question who they were after you sysoped them. If you have some grand plan to reinvigorate the community then I suggest you tell them, instead of eroding their faith in the administration, aside from anything else, if this plan is going to be successful I presume it will need their help.


 * "We have RfAs for a reason; to appease the public" this basically says to me that you're the wrong man for the job, simple as that. You demonstrate a lack of respect for the community, RFAs are there to help a Bureaucrat make their decision. They give the candidate an opportunity to answer any questions and to take suggestions on board. Not all rules are bureaucracy and red tape, a person in your position should know this. If you feel otherwise then you can suggest and enact changes to our policies, but ignoring them as you see fit is not an option. "...with the exception of very few early RfA's, they've all been absolute jokes" I don't believe that at all, as far as I can tell our policy here has always been to sysop people as they become necessary and I don't take the input from users lightly.


 * In spite of the above I feel it is important to say that you've been a positive influence on the wiki and you've dedicated an enormous amount of time and effort to improve the place. I'm eager to hear what your ideas with the Wikia staff are, and I'm happy to help out with any good ideas as my time allows. But I do not think you are suited to the role of Bureaucrat, I'm sorry. --Xasxas256 08:13, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry you think that as well, but there's nothing to do about it. It's down to a difference of opinions. RfA's have given me no insight in *ages*. It's not just that I ignore people, it's that I've thought of it before. RfA's theoretically give the community a chance to put forth their opinion in an effort to sway the bureaucrat who, now and throughout all of GuildWiki history, have complete control over promotions. The bureaucrat is the final arbiter - if you feel strongly against someone because valid reason X, then you put "valid reason X" on the RfA. For example:


 * "Only 2 mainspace edits --JonTheMon 16:30, 17 June 2008 (UTC)" is fine. It's an argument presenting cold, hard facts in its defense. Unfortunately, I had taken that into consideration.
 * "Though I think this user's perspective is correct, I don't think someone recently blocked for wiki disruption would make the best admin. Also, this user's sharp (for lack of a better word) attitude and frequent veiled/borderline NPA doesn't quite convince me they'd make a good adminstrator. --Shadowcrest" is equally valid, and supports a good argument with a valid defense. Also unfortunately, I knew the circumstances of his actions and why he did what he did, and decided it wasn't that important.
 * For the entire rest of the RfA, all of the votes are cast in ignorance. They're basically flat wrong. "Not enough experience." "there are *much* better candidates.." and "I do not feel that this user has had enough time on this wiki for promotion."
 * That's aside from the people who give bad votes to begin with, completely outside of their logic and argument. "I don't think he deserves Admin because he hardly has any mainspace edits or helping people in talk pages of the mainspace. Also when does having more than 80% to User and User talk pages allow people to be RfA'd? Then again you did do this for yourself which I'm highly against but thats your decision to get 10 oppose before it's over" shows ignorance of the entire process. Since when did edit counts/namespaces matter? I think the only time I've seen that argument hold water was against Defiant Elements back when he was shot down for GWiki adminship because most of his edits were in the Build: namespace. Now, on a wiki where most edits happen on the user talk namespace (seriously, look at RC, it's quite disturbing), the year-old expectations of a mass of mainspace edits are quite outdated.
 * That was, as I said, my fault. I should not have opened an RfA at all in this case - it misled the community. The normally appeasing process was mostly ignored, which is much of the reason people are so butthurt. Get over it. I just shot down the majority of the comments that were there, and explained how I had already thought of the valid ones. It isn't a necessary process. Want another example, but to the other extreme? Requests for adminship/Gem. A landslide of "i think gem is a pretty cool guy eh" votes, and no thought put into it. Hell, even I had voted in a vain attempt to be diplomatic instead of honest. :/
 * Biro bent under pressure and promoted, which carried over to GWW. After a few months, Gem performed... decently. No unjust blocks were performed, no pages had been maliciously deleted, but the community finally realized their mistake... after months of watching. This case is the other way around - the community universally dislikes, but again, is universally wrong. The reason in either case is irrelevant (here, mostly due to ignorance - again, my mistake on the RfA opening - in gem's case, the community liking carebears without giving enough thought to the matter).
 * As much as I hate "the ends justify the means," it really applies to this case. The wiki prospering is the ultimate goal. For that to happen, we need more movers and shakers - and less people so scared of change that they'll go out of their way to prevent it, letting the wiki stagnate.
 * I can't say much more without repeating myself, but I think I've covered all the bases. RfA's are a tool to placate the masses; occasionally, someone will have a unique opinion, but those occurrences are so few and far between that all the drama caused in the meantime really isn't worth those very rare pearls of wisdom. In the end, Bureaucrats make the decision. This recent episode of drama mostly reinforces my belief that RfA's aren't worth it anymore, but I don't care enough to abolish them entirely. I guess I'll wait and see how the next few placate the masses before coming to any kind of a final decision. - Auron 09:01, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I have escalated this matter to your fellow bureaucrats, PanSola and JediRogue. I don't believe I have much more to say on the issue either. On RFAs, of course certain votes will be less meaningful than others but the process is nevertheless important. I think that all bureaucrats take these things with a grain of salt but there can still be useful comments. I don't think is was particularly uncommon for LordBiro or Tanaric to say during or after an RFA that they hadn't really considered this or that until it was mentioned. Ignoring RFAs to me says that you believe you know more than the entire community put together. I cannot understand how you say that not opening an RFA would have mislead the community less. To me a bureaucrat is someone who listens to the feedback the community gives, the evidence at hand and then makes a decision based on the policies we have and what they think is best for the community. Not just what they think is best, ignoring policies and the community. Using the word "butthurt" to describe community anguish is unnecessary and talking of "placating the masses" is insulting. I don't think you appreciate the weight your position and actions hold and with due respect, I don't think you have the required diplomacy. --Xasxas256 11:46, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Under some other name on GWW? Because there is no R.Phalange user page or user talk page there.  Quizzical 00:49, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes. I'm not sure I'm at liberty to give it out, but feel free to ask him. - Auron 02:34, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Technically, the RfA wasn't open any more as it wasn't listed on GW:RFA - but that's a technicality. What irks me most is that what we read here from Auron wasn't posted to the RfA - a clear vote of support from Auron and this discussion should have been had before the promotion, not after. --mendel 07:42, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Truthfully, the wiki has fallen a lot if its come down to users vs bcrat. Auron is right; without Wizardboy's Image: spam, we get like 300 contribs in a day. Noon GMT and we have edits from 3~ pm the previous day showing. I have to truthfully say that, regardless of position on another wiki, R should prove himself before being sysoped. And the nature of which he has shown, being somewhat trollish, is.. disturbing, to say the least. I'd also like to point out that R.Phalange started the RfA, not you Auron, so are you saying that you're R? Or did you tell him to start it? In any case, I'm staying away from this potential drama, but first I'm going to give my opinion on it:
 * May I remind you that RfAs are supposed to only be a popularity contest, RfAs in themselves don't really matter; its always been the bcrats decision. Its just that previous bcrats have always been a tad more.. Diplomatic than Auron, following the community rather than what they thought. Auron himself is, as he does acclaim to be, almost always right in his judgement of character. It'd just be nice if who R.Phalange is could be told. From what I can tell from your reluctance to tell his name, theres a somewhat high chance that hes a sysop with a bad reputation; or perhaps he has asked you to keep his name secret.
 * At the same time, I think it is evident that Auron likes this person, since undeniably I'm here to help the wiki, he wouldn't promote me if I got 14 opposes (Which is a point I raised with him on IRC). Auron is evidently bias, and so I have to say, wouldn't it have been a better choice to tell one of the other bcrats (Jedi or Pan) what you knew, and wait for their decision?
 * I know that at heart, if not always working, he wants to help the wiki. This is one of those things that will end badly if a compromise isn't reached soon, I think. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 12:05, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Heh... the notion of Phalange having a bad reputation on GWW is actually somewhat comical. Anywho, I believe he's been asked on his talk page to reveal his identity, so to speak, so you may want to wait for his response.  [[Image:DE Sig Test 2.jpg|50x19px]]  *Defiant Elements*   +talk  17:15, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

R.Phalange has said on his user page that he used to be Brains12 here. I doubt that Auron's refusal to give out the previous name was attempting to hide anything; most likely it was just trying to respect privacy when he wasn't sure if R.Phalange would care. But it's now a moot point.

What isn't a moot point is Auron's contention that if he had waited a year, R.Phalange would have had overwhelming support. Brains12/R.Phalange has contributed to this wiki for nearly a year. Let's have a look at his record. As Brains12, he has exactly 14 mainspace edits, all of which were pretty minor. Those include reverting a vandal, introducing a few typos, fixing several other typos, adding a trivia section, and then deleting that trivia section. They're all pretty routine stuff, and not terribly objectionable. In addition, he had 24 talk edits as Brains12.

Suppose that the community knew that R.Phalange was also Brains12. With that thin of a track record, would the community have been overwhelmingly in favor of making him an admin? It might not have been unanimous opposition, but that thin of a track record probably would have merited more responses along the lines of "who is he?" than support.

Auron's contention that mainspace doesn't get edited much anymore is likewise false. I don't care to look up the statistics on others, as it can be a pain to determine when people first registered. Personally, I first registered late last October, more than three months after Brains12. In particular, I registered long after GWEN had been released, so I didn't participate in any rush to post new content. In that time, I have 238 mainspace edits, of which many are minor tweaks, but some are major reorganizations or largely rewrites of long articles.

The reason to bring up mainspace edits is that those are essentially the point of the wiki. Take away the mainspace and we'd have nothing more than a social club only marginally associated with Guild Wars. Take away everything but main, talk, image, and template, and the wiki would be scarcely less useful to the plethora of unregistered users who read it as a resource.

Auron has no right to complain about a lack of useful comments in the RfA. What was essentially done was to say, here's a candidate for admin, but we're not going to tell you who he is, so you can't look at his track record. After hiding the candidate's track record, you cannot complain that people weren't able to make useful comments about it.

Is the RfA primarily to appease the public? While that is one reason for them, it is an important enough reason that the RfA process would be important even if that were the only reason. Even if admins and bureaucrats could invariably make the best possible decisions, if those decisions are buried in secrecy and never explained, it would create the perception that the wiki is run by some abusive, incompetent cabal. Perceptions matter, as it is perceptions that lead people to join or leave the wiki community. Often perceptions will follow reality, but not if all who know what is really going on keep it secret.

But that is not the only reason to have an RfA process. It is a basic principle of good governance that in any sizeable community, the smartest member will rarely know more than the entire rest of the community added together. While the wiki is not and should not be a democracy (in part because elections are often decided by turnout among people who don't particularly care), transparency in administration and consulting the general public does matter. If it is adviseable to give an explanation upon reverting a minor edit, how much more so is an explanation important when appointing a sysop for life!

There is also the issue that some people are very good at being nice to those they perceive as being in charge, and otherwise being an obnoxious jerk. Someone may be widely hated through most of a game's community, while his superiors are completely unaware of it. Examples that I've personally seen in other games come to mind. This tends to be less of a problem when everything that is said is out in the open for everyone to see, as is common on the wiki. But that precaution seems to have been wantonly discarded here.

Gem is cited as an example of a sysop who was supported by the community but didn't turn out that well. To that I ask, how so? If you concede that you can't point to any abuse of the sysop powers, then how did it harm anything for Gem to become an admin? If that is the worst indictment of the community consensus sometimes being wrong, then that would be quite a powerful argument in favor of the traditional RfA process.

Auron talks of changing things, but leaves open the question of what to change. It is not possible to have generic change in the abstract, but only to change particular things. Changes made for the sake of making changes almost invariably turn out to be destructive or at best inert.

One final question: if there aren't enough active admins, does that mean we should be trying to nominate and support more admins from within the community? Surely that would be preferable to having more random unknown and only marginally active people foisted on us over the objections of the community. I know that admins are supposed to use the power to ban, delete, and protect pages as appropriate, and that bureaucrats are additionally supposed to appoint admins. Do they have other major duties that I haven't noticed? Quizzical 21:50, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * o no i created wiki-drama--[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 03:00, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Disrespect to the community. That's the feeling I get reading Auron answers. As a newcomer, I'm surprised about the way this RfA is handled. Apparently it was needed to hide his identity and there was no need to tell the readers of the RfA about it. Then an RFA was started without even mentioning *why* he should be an admin. Somehow, it wasn't allowed to be closed. Again, without any good explanation. Now he became admin and people asking why, since he had no positive feedback on the RfA. For the first time, Auron shed some light why, how and when. Basically it sums up to: "yeah, you dont know what I know, he's a cool kid and will save our GW and trust me on that one. Your comments where lame (because you don't know what I know). Admins chosen by the community are not better and I shouldn't started an RfA in the first place." Although the motives are noble, I can't help to think that we -as community- are wanted, informed, asked or valued in any way, following this line of reasoning. Sheez, thanks. Apparently you don't need us at all here, why do I even bother ? -- [[Image:merty_sign.gif]]-- ( talk ) 03:08, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * "Apparently you don't need us at all here, why do I even bother?" To run the wiki - keep the content updated, make changes to the content, form consensus on this policy or that, etc. The community at large excels at everything except picking admins, at which they are decent... but not great. They tend to favor carebears, sacrificing individual reliability for kindness. That leaves you with a wiki that can't handle trolls and/or major asshats.
 * I prefer a mix. Carebear sysops are necessary in any good admin team, but they can't make up the entirety of it - that's like going into GW with a team full of monks, ditching warriors and eles and stuff just for the healing power. It works sometimes, but when the going gets rough, the team can't handle the situation.
 * This wiki hasn't had too much of a problem with an overwhelming carebear crew. Entropy picked quite well, given the limited resources available to her, and kept the wiki from descending into a spiral of decay. However, if the community gets the pick, the carebears will fill up the spots and the rest is history.
 * That was the problem with Gem. He's smart, trustworthy and very kind, but didn't... get it. He never abused his admin powers, but he didn't need to; he contradicted himself in several discussions (sometimes multiple times in a single discussion), and would seem to agree with whichever crowd was loudest. I still think he's better than several people at the job (most notably some of the earlier admin picks on GWW), and he's certainly not the worst, but he's my preferred example of why carebearism doesn't win. At this point, I'm happy that he's on board on this wiki; he's learned from feedback over the years, and has shown quite an effort to improve.
 * Anyway, back to the point. It was my mistake opening the RfA to begin with, I've said it before - I wasn't faulting anyone (even in my previous post) for their ignorance, because there was no possible way for them to know. I should have just left discussion out of it and let his actions speak for themselves. Ever since his block, he's been acting and performing like the Brains12 everyone knows.
 * I should have asked if I could tell everyone who he was, but I honestly didn't think of it until it was too late. I was (like my userpage says) up at camp, so I was getting random 15 minute intervals to catch up with the wiki stuff, and my random intervals never coincided with his online time, so I never got a chance to ask. What with the stress of campers showing up (and a boss who thinks any minute I spend on my computer is a minute spent gaming), I didn't realize I could have just asked him on the wiki - dumb on my part.
 * "To me a bureaucrat is someone who listens to the feedback the community gives, the evidence at hand and then makes a decision based on the policies we have and what they think is best for the community." Xas, that's exactly what I did. The RfA brought up two solid points, and a bunch of extraneous stuff. I factored in those two points before making the decision. The evidence at hand was knowledge of his account name on GWW - again, it played a major role in his being promoted, even if it was known only to me (and Jedi). And lastly, I promoted because I did think it was best for the community. He'll be a great sysop and a fun editor.
 * "or perhaps he has asked you to keep his name secret." I think he did, at one point, back when he was in the trolling mode with Banj. Maybe that's why I was confused and didn't think to re-ask after he had agreed to act like his normal self. However, May, the promotion had nothing to do with bias; if I were promoting friends, Scourge and DE and probably Tanetris would be admins. I told you exactly why I wouldn't promote you, no matter what the vote count; I simply don't trust you :P
 * "The reason to bring up mainspace edits is that those are essentially the point of the wiki." Right... but wrong. "Administrate users, not content" is the old adage, it's probably still on the admin page somewhere. A person can be an amazing sysop simply by editing the user talk namespace; he doesn't have to touch the main namespace to get his sysop work done. Again, the person would have to be an exceptional speaker, but excellent mainspace edits don't magically hold more water than excellent user talk edits.
 * "But that is not the only reason to have an RfA process." Yeah, it really is. If people were giving excellent, unique opinions, I'd keep it up in a heartbeat - but that hasn't been the case, so they've caused more headache than anything. They aren't worth a damn if all they are is a vote count.
 * I have more to say, but I've got to go pick up uniforms, BBL :< - Auron 04:13, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Amusing. This section alone is getting a 32kb message. I obviously missed a lot of drama while I was gone. Personally, I agree that he'll be a good admin. Obviously more explanation would be good, but you've evidently figured that out without my help =) [[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]]Entrea  [Talk]  04:41, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

In short, Auron: In promoting Brains you have probably made the right choice and certainly acted within your powers. But you've pissed off several of the (very small) band of people who still make constructive edits. That's not good. You may have done the right thing, and abided by the rules, but your community relations need more work if you expect this wiki to survive.Lurkerabove 09:58, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Auron; Knowing who R is hasn't changed my perspective, if anything it has lessened my opinion of Brains, whom I always thought a decent editor, and in no way a troll. What my basic point is is that you've alienated just about everyone who voted in that RfA, and probably a dozen more people aside.
 * Entrea; the fact that so many people are opposed to Auron shows that, at the very least, the decision wasn't good for the community. Sure, he may have been right in the long run, but is losing 2-3 members of the wiki worth gaining 1 sysop? I don't know if anyone will leave, but some people I know are considering it.
 * Would you please explain your rationale for promoting Brains? Sure, I know that you consider him a wonderful sysop on the other wiki, but theres got to be more to it than that; else I'm sorely disappointed. Surely you of all people should know that bad reputations carry, not good ones.
 * R.Phalange has only been a troll, and most of his contributions somewhat.. pointless. Of course, perhaps the sysoping will make him more responsible, but from what I've seen, he'll only mess around.
 * Oh, and Auron; I don't blame you for not trusting me, but isn't that a Assume Good Faith breach? :o &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 10:50, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * It's not a breach of AGF cause you're known to cause havoc and be reckless when having an idea. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  10:58, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * No. I'm not assuming anything anymore. I've seen too much of your actions. AGF mostly applies (in spirit and wording) to anonymous/new editors who make a mistake - one that we assume is honest. You're neither anonymous nor new, nor am I responding to any specific edit you've made. AGF couldn't apply to this situation less, tbh. - Auron 12:46, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * As per mendel, /slap. That AGF comment was a joke. I have to say, though, that your apparent disregard for the rules and policies is somewhat worrying. Unless I misunderstood. Which is likely, since I read that in like 20 seconds. Skimming ftw. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 14:42, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) Who says he did the right thing? Have a look over R.Phalange's contributions. He's only been here for less than a month but during this time he managed to get himself banned because of his actions. These kind of matters always attract comments from a small few, possibly most are unaware of what's going on and as for those who choose not to comment, perhaps they don't like to deal with conflict, or they don't feel as though they can add anything constructive to the debate, I don't know. This doesn't mean that the repercussions of what happens here won't end up having an effect on these users. Whether people like it or not we have certain processes here for a reason and it's not to placate the masses, these things do matter. Having one person at the top calling all the shots while chainsawing through red tape may sound like a wonderfully romantic idea but the reality is different and I wouldn't trust anybody with that. You cannot help a community who's rules you don't care for and don't listen to. Look what's your main role as a bureaucrat? It's promoting and demoting sysops and bureaucrats; you're not some maverick go getter politician or lone sheriff. You're basically a judge, listening to the relevant arguments.
 * If Auron doesn't back down then I will ask for his demotion and that becomes a decision for the remaining bureaucrats. If they made their decision and said the arguments for the community were largely worthless and handed down their verdict without explanation then I would be much aggrieved, particularly if the decision was unfavourable I suppose. Even if somehow their verdict could somehow be quantified as "correct" I'd still be unsatisfied. This is a people person role and requires listening and diplomacy, not just action, even if it is the correct action. And I also don't see how any grand plans for reinvigorating the wiki require bureaucrat rights.
 * I urge people to think about the contributions of the person who got sysoped, was this really the right decision? Think about the way it was done, against the community's wishes and without any prior explanation. Look at the language he's used to describe the community. Consider what Auron has said, next time he wouldn't bother with an RFA. What does this mean for the future if we decide this course of action and behaviour is acceptable? --Xasxas256 11:16, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * If you're on some paladin spree, be sure to include the rest of the evidence, Xas. You wouldn't want to appear biased, eh? His contributions can also be found here, and evidence of his ability to deal with people diplomatically can be found here, and his sysop log is here. Since the promotion was made with that information in mind, it would be foolish to pretend that I promoted him based on some troll edits followed by a block.
 * I'm mostly annoyed that you've ignored the vast majority of my posts. You're re-hashing arguments that have already been de-bunked. His trolling posts have been explained - take it or leave it, but please stop bringing it up unless you have something to add. His ban has been explained, and he's also detailed how it made him focus on his original goal. If you want to ignore those posts and act as if they didn't happen, go ahead, but please do so on someone else's talk page, as they're really just making this a circular argument.
 * "Whether people like it or not we have certain processes here for a reason and it's not to placate the masses, these things do matter." If you have a specific argument concerning any of the processes I skipped, feel free to voice it. I haven't heard anything yet, except for a chorus of "RfA's aren't just to placate the masses," which haven't been supported by... y'know, anything. Like I've said a hundred times - their purpose is to give Bureaucrats community feedback on the candidates. If the community feedback is nothing more than stuff bureaucrats can tell in two seconds anyway (we can check special:editcount too, you know), then the process isn't worth it - IMO. Like I've also said, however, I have no wish to stop using them now, and will continue to watch the next few RfA's to see how they happen before I will begin to think about nixing the idea. Although I guess you tl;dr'd that bit, because you seem to think I'm ditching the idea entirely. Are you even reading this? :/
 * "Having one person at the top calling all the shots while chainsawing through red tape may sound like a wonderfully romantic idea but the reality is different..." Oh, man, that would be cool indeed. Yes, reality is different - if I had that proverbial chainsaw, I'd have deleted AGF/1RV/YAV/NPA and made one big "don't be a dick" policy. What a way to maximize efficiency, eh? However, I have no interest in fixing what isn't broken.
 * "You cannot help a community who's rules you don't care for and don't listen to." I disagree, but this is mostly a matter of belief. Can't argue very far either way without falling into the depthless ocean of opinion.
 * "Look what's your main role as a bureaucrat? It's promoting and demoting sysops and bureaucrats." Right. I did that.
 * "If Auron doesn't back down then I will ask for his demotion and that becomes a decision for the remaining bureaucrats. If they made their decision and said the arguments for the community were largely worthless and handed down their verdict without explanation then I would be much aggrieved, particularly if the decision was unfavourable I suppose." I think you need to fit more fallacious logic here. More appeals to emotion would finish that paragraph right off.
 * Xas - I still respect your opinion, but it seems like you haven't read half of this discussion, because you're making absolutely outrageous, and even absolutely false, claims. I would at least ask you to finish reading before you request my resignation :/ - Auron 12:46, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Wiki Strategy
"This wiki needs help. In case you didn't notice, it is dying. If nothing ever changes, it will die." How do you figure that? Number of active Wikians dwindling? Number of mainspace edits falling off? How are pvxwiki and gww doing compared to us?

Let's face it, in 10 years this wiki will be dead, so it has to die at some point between now and then, as does the GW community (except for some die-hards). If you can keep this wiki growing in spite of the GW community dying, you're a miracle worker.

If you have a strategy then why not put that up for discussion so the community can buy into it? So far, your strategy looks like a) getting into the guild pages market, b) getting sysops from GWW, c) alienating your best editors by promoting a sysop over their heads, d) getting editors from other wikia communities. a) and b) look like "imitating our best competitor" - and he has advantages we can't match. d) I don't see working - I think the wikia move made sense to wikia because they were getting editors from us; I doubt there are wikia editors who play GW and don't know our wiki.

In short, I'm not buying. --mendel 07:41, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * So you suggest... giving up? Playing Mafia until Wikia decides we're more of a liability than an asset? Sorry, not interested.
 * I have two ideas in my head without brainstorming with Wikia staff/the wiki. Firstly, some kind of contest; maybe with in-game prizes, maybe with real-life prizes. Something to get outside people interested in joining the community (or at least creating an account, with the hopes that a few will stick around). PvX had a few, and they all got a fair amount of entries; I'm fairly certain this wiki will get more entries. The contests can be anything from guild wars-themed baked cakes for GW birthday events, holiday themed screenshot contests, poems written about bosses/missions/characters, etc. I'm sure Shadowphoenix could brainstorm more than a few entertaining contest ideas - the hard part would just be providing an incentive for people to participate.
 * The other is ads. We make ads to put on GWGuru and we put some of their ads up on this wiki (in place of a few of the existing ads, not in addition to them). If wikia can make that happen, it's an option I'd like to try.
 * Wikia probably stood to gain more users from us than they gave to us. However, we're tied at the waist, so I intend to make as much use of their staff as I can :P - Auron 11:37, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

We have RfAs for a reason
The reason is that they show community trust. You always harp on Bcrats having discretionary power to appoint admins, but it is implied that the admins have community support. "GuildWiki admins are recommended by the community." You might not have held with any individual users' arguments on the RfA,but as a whole the RfA demonstrates that R.Phalange has bugger all community support, and that counts as a strong argument against R.Phalange with anyone - but you.

You had clear supoprt for R.Phalange in your mind, and you had arguments for it, too. Why didn't you post them to the RfA? Are you planning to keep on discussing your decisions only after you've put them into action? --mendel 07:41, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * RfA's, as most people see them, are a decent tool to give an exact number of community supporters - a vote, basically. They don't show consensus, which is closer to actual community support than any vote could be. If more emphasis was placed on discussion, and less on vote counts, RfA's would be a real depictor of community support. Either way, a vote can only tell so much when it comes to an abstract concept like "community support." Unless, of course, every voter wrote a well-phrased and well-reasoned argument for or against... but I digress :p
 * "as a whole the RfA demonstrates that R.Phalange has bugger all community support, and that counts as a strong argument against R.Phalange with anyone - but you." If they had all the information, they would support. Because they didn't have all the information, I had to take into consideration that they weren't making educated comments. A few people would still have reservations (along the lines of "well, he's apparently worthy of sysop on GWW, but since I don't trust their community to pick good sysops, let him spend months editing here to prove the same to us"), but those few people wouldn't be the norm of consensus. Although the lack of information was ultimately my fault, it was still a factor in making this RfA patently useless in determining actual community support.
 * For a normal user submitting a normal RfA, no hidden aliases or whatnot, the RfA still wouldn't be that useful of a tool. Again, it would give a vote count, but lacking any real discussion (as the majority of them do), it would remain too shallow to be a real gauge (and honestly, if I wanted a poll, I'd use that wikia poll maker doohicky; a "yes/no" box is much easier than reading an entire page of people restating opinions and giving unsupported arguments).
 * In fact... that's genius! I think I'll start putting those on RfA talk pages or something. Man I rock.
 * "Are you planning to keep on discussing your decisions only after you've put them into action" <- no, too many walloftexts. - Auron 11:37, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * "If they had all the information, they would support." Then why didn't you give us that information?  All we had to go on was an RfA page with Phalange's signature on it.  Upon seeing that, most of us were probably thinking, "wtf?"  Without any good reasoning as to why this RfA even existed in the first place, why would anyone support it?
 * "Because they didn't have all the information, I had to take into consideration that they weren't making educated comments." And thus, you could easily justify disregarding the entire community's opinion... an opinion we held only because we didn't have all the information.  >.>
 * "lacking any real discussion (as the majority of them do)" Oh come on, Auron, that comment was just stupid.  Look back at the RfA for a moment.  Notice anything?  Actually, do you not notice something?  I'll give you a second... yep, that's right.  R.Phalange never said anything in his own defense.  And the only two other people who "had all the information" (you and Jedi) also made no comments at all on the RfA.  If you or Jedi or, especially, Phalange had said something, you know what would've happened?  It might have started a DISCUSSION!  Omigawd!  There was no discussion on Phalange's RfA because the only people who made any comments there all had the same opinions, and when everyone has the same opinion, there's nothing to discuss.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:38, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Admins are not appointed purely on the basis of RfA votes, nor should they be. That would be far too vulnerable to sockpuppetry, and the margin of victory could easily be less than the number of random people who didn't really care rounded up to vote one way or the other.  Even if one were inclined to go purely with the results of a vote, there's little reason why 50% favorable should be the proper threshold for success, as opposed to, say, 62% or 47%.
 * But the results of the vote still matter. If it comes out as 7 on one side and 5 on the other, it is close enough that there is no clear will of the community, and bureaucrats may reasonably go either way--regardless of whether the 7 were in favor or opposition.  When the vote is 13-0, the preferences of the community are abundantly clear, and defying that should take quite a strong reason.  "Because I'm the only person on the wiki capable of evaluating prospective admins" is not such a strong reason.  It is not even a mediocre reason.  But nothing better was offered in the RfA thread that theoretically encapsulated the reasoning behind the promotion.
 * Large wikis with many contributors are not created as a plaything for bureaucrats to meddle with however they please. Rather, bureaucrats are appointed for the benefit of the wiki, or more precisely, for the benefit of the users of the wiki.  Seeking to improve the wiki is certainly a good thing, but there are many thousands of ideas that people could come up with on how to improve the wiki, many of which would contradict each other--and many of which would not be an improvement.  But the proper measure of an idea is not the intentions behind it, but the actual results it would bring in practice.  This demonstration of utter contempt for those who contribute to the wiki is unlikely to end well, even if R.Phalange turns out to be a phenomenally good admin.  Undermining public trust in an active bureaucrat is far worse than doing the same to a mere admin.
 * I do not know whether you regard this fiasco as a blunder from which you will learn, or whether you intend to continue using bureaucrat powers to make arbitrary changes while neither consulting the community nor considering any feedback that you may accidentally get. But no established wiki needs to add a bureaucrat of the latter variety, as that is more likely to destroy a wiki in the name of saving it than to actually help the situation.  Indeed, such a bureaucrat so disconnected from those he theoretically wishes to benefit can best help the wiki by resigning his position as a bureaucrat--and thus preventing the damage he would have caused.  Quizzical 09:54, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * "I do not know whether you regard this fiasco as a blunder from which you will learn, or whether you intend to continue using bureaucrat powers to make arbitrary changes while neither consulting the community nor considering any feedback that you may accidentally get." The change wasn't arbitrary, I consulted the community (via the RfA process), and I considered the feedback, before and after I consulted the community. Any other blatantly false claims you want to throw out there, for good effect? The dramatic response they inspire is quite nice, although they kill any actual argument you may have had... so it sort of backfires when people stop to think instead of getting caught up in the moment.
 * Indeed, I learned a great amount from this fiasco. I learned a great deal about how GWW (yes, GWW) became what it is. I learned how the community is spurred on by a few dramatic, yet factually incorrect posts, that appeal to feelings and emotion instead of logic and reason. Maybe I should try that sometime, it seems to work wonders. Maybe that was Entropy's way of keeping in the good books so she didn't get chastised for doing the same thing.
 * @Ish; nice try at debunking my argument, but remember the givens. My arguments against RfA's aren't based on this last one, as I've said before. The lack of communication on Phalange's RfA doesn't excuse the lack of meaningful communication on the vast majority of the rest of them.
 * "And thus, you could easily justify disregarding the entire community's opinion... an opinion we held only because we didn't have all the information." This gave me most heartburn. I had to throw this thought around in my head for a few days before deciding my next course of action. I recognized your lack of information as my fault, which is the entire reason I didn't base my whole "RfA's suck" argument on this one. - Auron 09:36, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I won't start an RfA without deciding beforehand to use it as it is meant to be used; a tool for discussion. Keep in mind, I won't open RfA's if I feel they'll be completely useless, but for most cases, I will use them and participate in discussion... so far as I am able (i.e., if real life doesn't keep me off the internet). - Auron 09:36, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You did not consult the community about promoting R.Phalange. You didn't start the RfA, and you did not post in it other to correct formatting. You didn't even passively consult (as in "to refer to for information") because the community never gave advice on "Auron wants to promote R.Phalange", the advice was on "R.Phalange wants to be admin with no visible support". We have been trying to tell you that it's not the same question.
 * You may have "considered the feedback", but you seem to have made a mistake in assessing what implication the total lack of community support might have on your action - that, or you didn't in fact consider that at all. We only have your word for it that you did.
 * In fact, you did get feedback on the right question from JR: “Is this going to cause more problems than you hope to solve?” and "put off the promotion for a short time". You seem to have disregarded that.
 * You appeal to feelings and emotion all the time. "If people took a moment's break from whining", for example. There is a response brewing on the "personal morals/emotions issue, but I need to be less tired to compose that. --◄mendel► 19:59, 29 June 2008 (UTC)


 * You seem to be fond of declaring any statement that you dislike to be an appeal to feelings and emotion. Very well then, let's play your game for a minute.


 * Beginning of overly formal logic section
 * Statement A: The community was consulted before the promotion of R.Phalange.
 * Statement B: That R.Phalange is Brains12, both on GuildWiki and GWW, was part of the justification for his promotion.
 * Statement C: The community was told that R.Phalange is Brains12, both on GuildWiki and on GWW, before his promotion here.
 * Statement D: The community was given the justification for why R.Phalange was promoted before his promotion.
 * Premise E: Statement B is true.
 * Premise F: Statement C is false.
 * Premise G: If statement D is true, then (either statement B is false or statement C is true).
 * Premise H: If statement A is true, then statement D is true.
 * Conclusion I: Statement D is false.
 * Conclusion J: Statement A is false.
 * End of overly formal logic section


 * What remains is to argue that the premises are correct. For premise E, see the top of this page.  When asked for a justification of why R.Phalange was promoted, Auron cited his activity on GWW.


 * I hope premise F isn't controversial, but for the sake of rigor, I cite R.Phalange's RfA and his user page during his RfA.


 * For premise G, I should probably note that I'm using the inclusive "or" here. That is, if A and B are both true, then "A or B" is true.  I'd hope that premise G is pretty obvious, but the basic idea is that if the community was given the justification, either the community must have been told about Brains12, or else that must not have been part of the justification.


 * For premise H, I cite Auron's preferred definition of "consult". In order to seek advice from someone, you must give him the relevant facts.  I'm guessing this is the premise that Auron would object to, so I'll return to it later.


 * Conclusion I follows from premises E, F, and G. Conclusion J follows from premise H and conclusion I.  These are easily derived from truth tables, among other means.  If one rejects conclusion J, then one must either reject one of the premises, or else reject sentential logic itself.


 * So let's go back to premise H. Let's suppose that I ask you whether I ought to submit a paper to JCTA or DCG.  I don't tell you what JCTA or DCG are, though you could probably find out for yourself if so inclined.  But more importantly, I don't tell you what my paper is.  For all you know, it might be about bathing kittens, in which case, the appropriate answer would be "neither".  Have I consulted you on where to submit my paper?  While I may have jokingly made some comments about it, I haven't seriously sought your advice.


 * And that, fundamentally, is the problem here. Auron made a mockery of the RfA process, and did not seek the input of the general community.  Indeed, he has sought instead to tell others what their opinions should have been.  See, for example, the statement, "I could have waited a year and he'd have gotten full support votes."


 * And while we're on the subject of logic, let's note the absurdity of "I considered the feedback, before and after I consulted the community." Really?  You considered the feedback before there was any feedback to be considered?  Don't you think it is rather hypocritical to give a hand-waving dismissal of criticism as lacking in logic while you make nonsensical claims like that?


 * So which is it? Is it premise E, F, G, or H that is wrong, or is sentential logic itself invalid?  Or is conclusion J valid, not withstanding Auron's protests to the contrary?  There are no other logical options (though it is possible that more than one of the options could hold).  Quizzical 00:08, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

oh auron
what am i going to do with you? 69.122.146.84 09:11, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * sex me tbh. - Auron 11:37, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Timeline
How is your timeline for reviving the wiki laid out such that you had to fast-track Brains12 to a sysop? Is it so close that waiting a month would have been detrimental to the plan? 'Cause a month is a long time in terms of wiki-drama. --JonTheMon 13:13, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Dunno what Auron will say, but he wrote fairly early up there: "But since this wiki needs help in the worst way, I'm willing to go out of the way to find it." I'm kinda stumped myself why we would need another admin "in the worst way", but I'm sure Auron has thought that through. --◄mendel► 22:21, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Comments from another other Bcrat on the promotion incident
It's a lot to read up, so I mostly only followed whoat Auron said plus about 50% of other ppl's posts, skimmed the rest. The following are my current reaction, in my Bcrat role but without perfect information, regarding the situation:


 * 1) Initially, the user in question chose to open a new account on this wiki without revealing/mentioning his former identities.  Even if in the end the user didn't mind, Auron's promotion of him based on the private knowledge of other identities on another site is inappropriate.  To influence your action based on knowledge of his identity elsewhere, and/or to reveal that he has a separate identity elsewhere, betrays the trust the user placing that knowledge with you (even if the user doesn't mind it in the end). If the user wished his past track-record to be used in consideration for the qualification of adminship, then the user need to proactively volunteer the alternate identity publicly (as opposed to anybody else having to ask for that information).  It is not the Bcrat's position to make that assumption.  It would also be inappropriate if a  user wish to keep the alternate identity concealed while wishing to use it to be factored into adminship qualification (I don't believe this was the case in this particular incident, just mentioning it as a side note).
 * 2) There are some people who's perceived behavior/attitude changes drastically depending on the environment/wiki/community they are with.  Thus generally speaking, I am opposed to using a person's trackrecord from one wiki to predict how that person would act on this wiki.  If that user chooses to start afresh with a new identity, that is even a stronger indication that the person may choose to exhibit different characteristics than his former persona would lead people to expect.
 * 3) Auron, I feel you are overplaying the "carebear" card.  There is a minimal-level of respect and consideration that is expected in any community interaction without being a carebear, and that you've fallen beneath it from time to time, while implicitly characterizing the people who expects at least the minimal out of you to be carebears.  I agree with you that we don't need a shipload of carebears, but where the line gets drawn troubles me.  There are times when you can be twice as respectful and considerate and still act marginally like a dick (using the term you picked to characterize yourself) and nowhere near being a carebear.  When you are exercising your powers as a Bcrat, I would like you to be on that marginal side of being a dick.  Otherwise, you are unnecessarily speeding up the demise of this wiki despite your best intentions to save it.
 * 4) It is unclear to me if Auron's mentioning of this wiki's needing more movers and shakers has anything to do with the promotion of the user to sysop.  If Auron believes that user to have the potential to be a mover and shaker, or if that user is inclined to fulfill such a role, then Auron's promotion of that user in spite of the landsliding opposition in the RfA would likely undermine the user's ability to move/shake the wiki, even if that user is a perfect addition to the team of people trusted with the powers of Ban/Prot/Del.  A mover-shaker doesn't need the ban/prot/del tools.  Instead, the mover-shaker brings up new ideas, some of which are outside the community's comfort zone initially, but in the end the mover-shaker works with the rest of the community to bring forth changes.  This promotion gives the user tools unnecessary to move-shake the wiki, while increasing tension which can create distractions and/or unnecessary complications when trying to bring forth change, resulting in delays and frustration.  On the other hand, if this user has nothing to do with moving-shaking the wiki, but just somebody who can keep the wiki from deteriorating, then this doesn't matter in the larger scheme of things.
 * 5) Likewise, Auron, if you wish to become a mover-shaker of this wiki, you need to work on your community relations in general.  If you don't work with this community, if you alienate them when acting within your role of sysop/bcrat (and thus effectively chasing some of them out), then you might as well take a database dump and setup elsewhere to save yourself the drama and time.  If it is this wiki you care about, and not just a wiki, then you need to slow down, spend more time and put more thoughts into how you actions gets received, so it doesn't undermine your ability to help move-shake this wiki and keep it alive.  Again, you don't need to get anywhere near being a carebear to do that, and you can still do the right thing.  It takes more time, but it'd actually speed things up in the long run and help bring through more positive changes you have in mind.  "I don't try to break the wiki down, I don't try to drive away its users", you don't try, and you don't intend to.  But when a sysop/bcrat's actions consistently (and unnecessarily) alienate the vocal community, users do get driven away and/or gets distracted away from reason.
 * 6) I generally agree with Auron's characterization of the RfA process.  Some of the stuff mentioned in discussions above triggered some thoughts of revamping the RfA system to make it more generally useful, or at least less filled with fluff.  I'll work on it when I have more time.
 * 7) Regarding User:R.Phalange's promotion to sysop specifically, I agree with Auron's rebuttal against the objections in the RfA (or at least most of them, didn't have time to personally investigate too deeply), but have reservations on Auron's rational for the promotion (mostly due to point 2 above, point 1 was valid before the fact, but more or less moot after the fact as the information is now public).  Also, Auron really should've posted those rebuttals against the objections in the RfA before closing it.  In the end though, sysop is just a user entrusted with the ability to Ban/Del/Prot, so I am inclined to let the promotion stand unless R.Phalange goes out of his way to prove himself not worthy of Auron's trust.  This should be considered as a one-time special case instead of a precedent on how to handle "evaluation of user qualifications when an alternate identity" ought to be considered (although this can set a precedent on promoting users despite equivocal opposition in the RfA).

If it appears that I've neglected to notice any information/facts when making any of the above points, please bring them to my attention. Thank you.

-Bcrat:PanSola 06:50, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Drama time :\ 82.198.250.71 12:15, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

comments from some old retired user
As the bureaucrat who closed the nomination (yes! me!), I have to say that initially I was also puzzled. In the words of other users, it looked like some sort of joke nomination, and my first thought was "wtf?". Also seeing ~13 oppose votes didn't help. My own personal feelings about the user were that he was intelligent...but other than that I knew nothing. Yes, he had some minor trolling actions which I had considered blocking him for in the past. But that fact that I never had, shows that they were really not important. Later, Auron chose to block and I was cool with that; but that's because Auron is bit less kind than I am. R.Phalange may not have had too many edits in mainspace, but I don't take huge stock into that argument; since as Auron says, a sysop does not ever need to touch the mainspace if they are a great speaker. However, that was a problem for R.Phalange: he just didn't have that many edits, period, and had barely been here for any appreciable length of time. What little edits there were, hardly showed anything spectacular to me, other than the aforementioned intelligence, evne if it was displayed trollishly at first. In light of these considerations, and having nothing else to go on, I closed the nomination.

Now, if I had known what Auron had known, I would have done the same thing - I know who Brains12 is and I think he has done a pretty good job as a sysop on GWW etc. I trust him to be a sysop here, as well. I hear the people who say we should not treat user's track record on another Wiki with the same credit we do for GuildWiki edits. I myself have personally seen "certain users" do almost complete 180 changes from one Wiki to the next, so I understand totally the fears. However, that being said, Brains12's record is...very hard to challenge. I may be sounding hypocritical since I refused to promote Stylva (known as Anja, a sysop, on GWW). But I don't think they are identical cases. And certainly they vary widely in how great sysops they have been - while I consider them both good or even great, they have different strengths and weaknesses. If I may use one of Auron's favorite words, it's all about carebear-ism.

However, (this is to you Auron) I think it was inexcusably stupid not to link Brains12 with R.Phalange before or even immediately after the promotion. You see how even I was misled simply by omitting this fact. Having a month or a year to acclimate would have been fine, sure, but all that you really needed to do to get support was mention the name. I won't say anything about the whole "two identities means he's not trustworthy" idea, because frankly I had enough of that with Banthjulu and people can't seem to grasp the point / they contradict themselves. Anyway - I understand that you've been very busy, and we all have really bad moments so I hardly think this is a call for desysoption event...but you can see from the enormity and the volume of backlash that people are upset anyways. Unlike Auron, angry users bother me, even if their arguments are baseless or ignorant - simply because they make the wiki - my wiki - a less friendly place to be. I don't know any more than anyone else what Auron's Master Plan(tm) is, but certainly making the wiki more friendly and welcoming can't hurt at all. All this drama could have been avoided with just some few simple steps. Again, I know you have your excuses, which I accept, but you have to understand that they look...pretty flimsy to everyone else who refuses to let it slide as a simple mistake. The funny thing is that if I had done exactly the same as you, no one would be upset...! Actually I find that rather sad. :C How many times have I broken rules at will, said "Just trust me", made unilateral action, etc. with no one calling for my resignation? If there was one major mistake I made in making you bcrat Auron, it was undervaluing how much stock the community puts in "personal trust". Even if you had my full faith and credit endorsement (and still do), that is insufficient unless they personally trust you...ah well. I can see how people have begun to think we run this place like an "old boy's club" of late. Desperate times, desperate measures indeed.

Finally I will as usual lay the ultimate blame on myself. Why? Because I was meddling with affairs that I shouldn't have, I see now. You can say all you want about how I couldn't have known at the time, but that doesn't mean I can't apologize. I am sorry that I closed that RfA, Auron, before you or Jedi had a chance to officially comment on it. This is a part of why many users are upset - we are breaking tradition, contravening policy, what have you, since the RfA is supposedly all over and done with, and these sorts of discussions ought to take place before the decision. In that latter statement, there is some real truth...but again it's all because of unfortunate circumstances. I closed the RfA prematurely, before Jedi or Auron could comment on it, or Brains12 write in his defense, or anything. Honestly I ought to have known better, but...what's done is done. But really, I think if I had just left the RfA to Auron or Jedi to deal with, as they ought to have, things would have turned out much more OK.

(P.S. Auron is 99% right in everything he's written here, especially about RfA's and the community in general. I'll be nice and say that it's not something you-all have much control over and/or your arguments are logical and understandable from your viewpoints, but really, he's telling the truth, albeit bit harshly.)

(T/C) 07:08, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for weighing in, Entropy. :] We all appreciate your input.  I've noticed that this makes all four of the bcrats in favor of the promotion (albeit Pan's approval seems rather grudging), and, hopefully, this unity might assist in quelling the lingering malaise of the general populace. [[Image:Maui_sig.png]] 07:14, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, they will scream "cabal bias". Then again, I'm an optimist. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 10:20, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I want to respond in more detail when I have time, but for now, I can only say "trust your judgment." I had no intention of commenting on the page - nor, I think, did Jedi or Phalange. While the page hadn't been up all that long, 13 opposes and no real reason to keep it open is all the excuse you need to close it. You did the right thing.
 * "But really, I think if I had just left the RfA to Auron or Jedi to deal with, as they ought to have, things would have turned out much more OK." Meh, not really. I doubt Jedi was going to alter it at all, at least until more time had passed. At most, my plan at the time had been to promote then close the RfA. Either way, we weren't planning on inciting more... discussion?... than already existed, because it wasn't going to be thought-inducing. It was my fault the discussion wasn't thought-inducing, but it wasn't going to be thought-inducing either way, so I wasn't going to put more effort into milking it. Again, this specific RfA isn't why I don't like RfA's, but a quick glance at most of the RfAs on all three wikis will do a much better job of it. Thought-provoking isn't a concern for most people, who mostly think their signature helps their argument more than their words.
 * I should be on more saturday night. Should being the operative word. - Auron 06:35, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi
Read.-- (Talk) (Contr.) 01:33, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, living for today is the ever-wise advice from hippies and angsty teens. I'll pass. - Auron 04:35, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry you think that there's a major crisis or something on this wiki. This wiki isn't nearly dead, and it won't be for a LONG ASS time. So quit with all the pessimism.--[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 05:11, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, having constant talk page spam and mafia games to the exclusion of all actual progress/huge update in content is not dead? K. Glad you sorted that out for me. - Auron 05:46, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry? I don't recall saying that, but anyways, there's nothing wrong with a community being a community. We're all here, so what's wrong with some friendly get-to-know-each-other time? Nothing, as far as I'm concerned. This isn't a labor camp, so stop acting like it is. Users can contribute to their own free will, and you have no right to tell them otherwise. --[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 06:14, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Post sarcastic response here. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Marcopolo47 (contribs) 06:14, 27 June 2008 (UTC).
 * What sort of "huge update in content" are you expecting? Is there some part of the game that we don't have completely documented (besides important PvP guilds)?  If there is something specific that you think we are lacking, then please post it on the community portal or somewhere, so people know about it and can start working on it, instead of just making generic "doom&gloom" comments everywhere.  This is what's really making me irritated with you and DE and Phalange - you've all been saying the wiki "needs help in the worst way" etc., but for the longest time none of you actually said why you think it needs help.  A few things have come out in the last few days, yes - all of you hate "frivolous" things like talkpage spam and Mafia games, and DE is trying to fix up our policies, which is a good thing.  So getting back to my original point: where's the gaping hole in the wiki that needs a "huge update in content"?  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 13:52, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The entire PvP glossary is missing. Simple terms like pushing, turtling, preveiling, etc are all missing. Build history (i.e., a list of metas, or at least what's in the meta now) is missing. Not even skill-for-skill builds, just basic "dismiss condition is the favored condi removal, due to monks hybrid speccing into prot for soa, and due to dismiss being power creeped." Just anything to show people what skills are good to use.
 * The secondary profession articles are still terrible. They need to be scrapped or more well maintained; bad advice slips into those pages too easily. They've gone on for about as long as the build section, and they're every bit as poorly maintained.
 * "none of you actually said why you think it needs help." We just look around. People used to spend time overhauling the armor galleries - now they just spend it on Maui's talk page. Others used to love template building and article formatting; now, that time is spent commenting on people's real life pictures. The amount of actual, no-kidding work has reduced to a pitiful amount, even though there is stuff left to do. Unless you're saying the wiki is "complete?" A finished product? Then great job, go outside, take a nice walk through nature, and pat yourself on the back for a job well done.
 * But we both know the job isn't done. - Auron 21:05, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Re "template building", the only person I can offhand recall seeing in template histories that is still somewhat online is PanSola. The other people who are doing that these days are, guess what, Dr Ishmael and I. And I assure you, "time is spent commenting on people's real life pictures" is pityful compared to what I spent even this morning developing templates. I take serious offense at this. --◄mendel► 21:27, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * How do we spend our time? Let's assume for a moment that you had taken a hint from the 13 opinions "against" and waited for a less controversial time to promote brains12. The admin that the wiki needs "in the worst way" has, in the exact week (two hours short as I write this), used the admin tools exactly once: to delete a swedish article named "Warior". Someone else could have done that. Contribs in Mainspace? I don't see 'em. Administrative or other help in the Armor crafters project? Dr Ishmael and some other people, not R.Phalange. If you had not promoted R.Phalange then, we would have been spared a waste of time the likes of which suffice to run Maui's talkpage for a year, all Mafia games on this wiki combined, and then have some left over to keep some of the wikidrama outbreaks in check. And actually unlike the talkpage spam, this time waster isn't bringing the community together. It is divisive as hell, and my impression is that the only reason it hasn't degenerated into a flame fest is that some people bite down hard and post very little, or try to keep themselves under control as best as they can. It's not healthy. Get a clue. Please. --◄mendel► 21:54, 27 June 2008 (UTC) (edited 21:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC))
 * It was Dutch, actually. -- R [[Image:RPhalange star.png|18px]] Phalange  21:59, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Every single one of those issues could have been solved without promoting Brains to sysop. They're simple cleanup jobs. Even your average user from PvX could have fixed it. If that's what you say are the problem areas, then why bother with the mouse clicks to promote him? There was, based off of that, no reason whatsoever to irritate what looks like everyone on this wiki (likewise, squeaky wheel gets the grease, but it still looks like everyone right now).  —ǥrɩɳsɧƴ ɖɩđđɭɘş  [[Image:Grinshpon blinky cake.gif|19px]] 16:11, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

"I take serious offense at this." Pretty sure that's where most of your problems lie. Argue with logic, not with feelings. You can't win based on personal morals unless everyone shares them. Although I guess resorting to personal attacks to add a finisher to your argument is a pretty good way to win too, mirite? - Auron 10:03, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Mendel: Most of the users here spend their time doing basically nothing to improve this wiki. Alot of articles are outdated, filled with bad information, and more. Instead of spending their time talking and doing nothing, they could spend their time improving the wiki. Before you come in yelling "you're new here, what do you know about it", no. Hug Wub Banana 18:13, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * A lot is a relative term. The majority of articles here are complete through and through. There are a few problem sections left to be added/fixed (armor, mostly, and some skill articles could be ironed out) but if everyone suddenly got up and left right now and never came back, I'd say this wiki would be satisfactory. Every armor page has at least an overview picture so anyone with even a fraction of a brain could break the picture down into its separate components and the skill information isn't crucially needed. It's no better on the other wiki. That said, if you feel something is broken, go fix it. It's a wiki for fuck's sake. Anyone can go and fucking take a moment of their day, if they feel it's warranted, and go fix up any of the numerous problem spots you've all identified and seem to feel "desperately" need improvement. Go on now, the search button is to the left. Find something, fix it, and stop bitching about it. Maybe you can even conserve yours and everyone else's time by not writing essays on it. This wasn't directed at just you might I add, but anyone and everyone in general.  —ǥrɩɳsɧƴ ɖɩđđɭɘş  [[Image:Grinshpon blinky cake.gif|19px]] 15:59, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * That's what I was planning on doing, as soon as I have time. Which is problematic because I always seem to be logging on here when I almost have to go... Anyway, what I feel are alot of articles are inaccurate, better? Hug Wub Banana 17:58, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Help us out here - make a list. You can see by the response to Auron listing 3 PvP terms to be added that sometimes it is enough to just ask for help if you can't do it alone.
 * That said, I am reserved about the "monthly meta" article suggestions; I would look for that on pvxwiki where there are builds to link to and presumable the editors with the knowledge and approach for that. I understand Guildwiki is more a "game manual" type of site, and I have the impression that it is usually quite difficult to post strategy advice without running into disputes. --◄mendel► 22:03, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

i hate you
I posted my responses to the whole R. Phalange thing here because its long and I talked alot about different things. &mdash;♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥

Contests (From User talk:Auron of Neon
Heya!

I noticed earlier on this page that you were interested in perhaps running some contests. What do you have in mind? I'd love to work together with you guys to figure something out. I may even be able to get some swag to give out as prizes. --KyleH (talk) 18:37, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * We tried a few on PvX - in-game screenshots, out-of-game photoshop contests, and a few builds contests (on the builds wiki). We were gonna do a cake-baking contest (bake a guild-wars themed cake, upload a picture of it), but razer decided they didn't want us to give out more mice. For here, I'd start with a screenshot contest, with well-defined judging rules so everyone knows what they need to aim for. Any feedback/personal experience with those ideas? - Auron 01:57, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Shadowphoenix also suggested some solid arts&crafts ideas - buildings from the game made out of toothpicks or marshmallows, or general construction paper and glue buildings. - Auron 02:51, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * GW trivia contest &mdash;♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 03:33, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Also something like "Paint or Draw a NPC" or something similar. (Would love to see a painting of Vekk :D) -- Shadowphoenix  05:03, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I've got no hope at that, how about a Guild Wiki trivia contest! Or instead of the standard design a weapon contest, how about design a favicon! :P No? I'll keep thinking ;) --Xasxas256 05:22, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Screenshot contest, perhaps creating Contests may be a good idea Random Time 05:26, 3 July 2008 (UTC)