GuildWiki talk:Builds wipe

Links
Just to make sure everyone knows what/where everything currently is: More info: -- Peej 20:29, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Builds wipe (this page) - policy describing deleting all builds so that a better replacement build system can be started
 * Post No Builds - aka PNB - policy which only serves to protect the Build namespace in the interim between the build wipe and the replacement system being put into place
 * For clarity, I've included what will be the new policy into the builds wipe article. PNB is no longer referenced in any form. &mdash;Tanaric 19:48, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * No Original Builds - aka NOB - policy describing a solution to the PvP build section which involves only posting popular and successful builds found by watching observer mode
 * Profession Guides - recently written policy describing a solution to the PvE build section which involves documenting the basic uses of each profession in a guide format, with links to true PvE builds in user space
 * Builds wipe does NOT mean that all build posting will be permanently removed from the wiki, just that the current system of build posting will be removed in order to put something better in its place
 * Post No Builds doesn't mean you can't post builds on the wiki, just that you can't post them in the Build namespace
 * Both NOB and Profession Guides suggest original builds and build variants can be placed in user space, where they will be categorized and (hopefully) easy to find using template tags, so creation of personal builds will still be allowed

Discussion
Maybe I'm out of place here... But I'm frankly infuriated at this idea. So there's a big problem with the builds; I'll grant you ("you" being defined as supporters of this policy) that for the sake of argument. (I actually don't agree with that.) So the solution is to get everyone running around saving copies of all the builds they like while we delete an entire namespace of the wiki? A namespace that was specifically created because there were so many builds that so many people liked? I mean, come on! --Armond Warblade (talk) 21:12, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Builds wipe = policy eh? When did that happen? -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 21:14, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
 * I do believe I've seen it referred around the wiki as a policy. If not, put it down to me being PO'd. (Good thing I stopped myself from typing more, then, if I'll be jumped on for calling this a policy.) --Armond Warblade (talk) 21:50, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
 * This is a plan of action. It has no Proposed policy or accepted policy tag, so referring to it as policy would be technically incorrect; however, that matters little. I was just being nit picky. I'm just wondering what your point is. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 21:52, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Plain and simple: If the builds section is indeed a problem, the solution is not to tear it down, make everyone run around trying to save the "good" builds that they like (as defined in different ways by different people), and then (likely) in a few months come up with a "better" builds section that will likely include nearly all the builds that were torn down. It just seems like too much effort for too little result. --Armond Warblade (talk) 21:56, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Suggest you read the archives here and at GuildWiki talk:Post No Builds. All builds will not necessarily be coming back, none of the ones saved might come back.  It all depends on what people decide on for the new policy.  --Rainith 22:00, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Also... "the solution is not to tear it down." What is, pray tell, the solution? Tanaric and others have waited almost a year for the solution to appear... it hasn't, so now he's taking the course of action he sees most fit. It's easy to stand around and say how this *isn't* the solution... but it's hard to say something substantial. I'd love to hear the solution, though, if you have it. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 22:16, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
 * The build section had major issues that people tried to fix and everyone fought (no matter how fixes were proposed.) The current build section was certainly not good enough so it is being purged and if people want a build section they have to develop a new policy.  You are the first of many that are going to whine about this and quite a few are going to throw tantrums.  However the current build section is pretty pathetic and needs reworked.  This gets the ball rolling and forces people to do something.  It was needed for quite some time really.  -Warskull 00:03, 26 March 2007 (CDT)


 * Basically the change is to a no voting system. Simply put voting does not work in any form or manner even in RL with governments and the judicial system.  The reason it doesn't work is because the people who vote aren't exactly all that into politics or current affairs.  Most voters have a vested interest in a certain political party for no good reason.  Looking back at the 2004 election, it was quite obvious that a lot of the American public has no idea what is going on in the world, especially in places like Africa and the middle east.  Most people were voting on the personal flaws and qualities of the presidential candidates instead of the ability and the flaws of the administration and what it can do for the country... because we all know that the president has little power, and it is the administrative staff that is running the government.  But then again corporate lobbying etc and money is always involved so who's to say who's running the show?
 * So lets move away from that and talk about the judicial system. Although unanimous concencus must be met for a jury to decide guilty or not guilty... but the system is "jury of your peers".  More like people who couldn't get away from jury duty.  Most current day jurors are not molecular biologists that can interpret DNA evidence, or engineers that can tell the difference between a CCD and a CMOS chip.  Taxi drivers have no clue what patent law is and they are supposed to decide if a company infringed on a patent or not?? Construction workers aren't going to know how DNA is sampled and tested, and how it can be flawed depending on how it was collected.  They aren't going to know what the difference between RFLP and PCR is and the advantages and the restrictions of each type of test. Computer programmers aren't going to know what psychology is and what is considered to be an criteria for declaring insanity...
 * The point is that the current system allows "anyone" to vote. PvEers voting for GvG flag running builds, RA fanatics voting for HA builds, GvG only people voting for DoA builds etc...  And like someone said before, you wouldn't ask a janitor for a surgical consult would you? --Lania Elderfire[[Image:Pinkribbonsig.gif|My Talk]] 00:53, 26 March 2007 (CDT)
 * -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 01:04, 26 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Ramble ramble rant rant --Lania Elderfire[[Image:Pinkribbonsig.gif|My Talk]] 01:30, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Gasp, communists! :O Seriously tho, if democracy can't work on a Wiki - founded on the principles of community - then it can't work in real life either, true? Wiki-ism is really closer to Communism or Socialism than Democracy. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 01:32, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Or anarchy, depending on your point of view.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 09:59, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

"A namespace that was specifically created because there were so many builds that so many people liked?" - no, the namespace was created so that builds would be kept separate from all other content for a number of reasons, one of which was the ability to more easily purge the build section should it prove to be too much trouble.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 06:49, 26 March 2007 (CDT)


 * I don't want Biro's comment to be looked over, so I'll reiterate in bold. There were two primary reasons the Build: namespace was created. The first was to make builds easy to ignore in recent changes for those who had no interest. The second was to make them easy to delete if the section continued its downward spiral. &mdash;Tanaric 14:56, 26 March 2007 (CDT)


 * I can tell I'm outvoted, or at least outvoiced. I guess all I can do is watch over the builds I can save. --Armond Warblade (talk) 19:50, 26 March 2007 (CDT)

About damn time! I fully support this but I will make sure I save some of the builds I use/am likely to use. Clean Slate FTW. That's why I'm glad characters won't be able to transfer from GW1 to GW2. You know that the second time you do it it will be better because you've learnt from any mistakes you've made and have an improved knowledge of what you're doing. &mdash;  Hyperion`  (talk) 10:42, 26 March 2007 (CDT)


 * ...Up until the point where people buy GW2 without getting GW1? Or is there something against that I haven't heard of? --Armond Warblade (talk) 14:04, 26 March 2007 (CDT)




 * huh? there was a GW 1? or is GW 2 comming out? anyways...
 * I am not a member of any of those other, "better" build sites, and have used GuildWiki as a place to post my build ideas. And there is 3 listed sites... I would rather visit GuildWiki build section for a combination of all 3 than having to register to all 3 sites!
 * I know there have been numerous suggestions to solve the problem of this, but I think I have one of my own (note:I have not read all the suggested solutions). Every build should have a video (hosted on Google Video/You Tube) of the build working. Videos should contain the following: in PvE Farming the boss/mob, in PvE General the build in action with a team, and in PvP a video of the build performing and doing a good job where it was meant to be used. This way, people can see how it works even without testing it them selfs. Also, this could enable people who are PvPers to vote on PvE builds and vise versa. Videos with builds will also help with there usage, thats mainly why I put them on all of my builds that I post.
 * thats a bit of what I have to say, sorry if this has already been covered... I just found out about this today!! :) Trevor3443 15:34, 27 March 2007 (CDT)


 * Interesting idea at the very least, not sure if it has been suggested before. On the other hand, it still has issues.  First, I can make just about any build work.  I can go out with a group of Guildies using Echo and Mending and do just fine in a mission.  It is hard to gauge how much an individual is contributing from a video.  Furthermore, if I go out with an excellent monk, and I never die, and then someone accuses my Assassin build of not having enough defense, I shouldn't be able to say, "Well, look at the video, I never died!"  A video also doesn't give a sense of how hard it is to play or how much effort is required.  It gives a sense of the use in a single instance, but doesn't have the same effect as testing which shows the effectiveness in multiple settings.  I can win once in GvG or HA with any build if I try enough, so documentation doesn't necessarily work for PvP.  It's a new idea, but I don't think it would work.  Defiant Elements  (talk ~ contribs) 15:41, 27 March 2007 (CDT)


 * That's a good suggestion. How about for PvE builds, a balanced team with henchies only? Noone's going to say your build doesn't have enough defense if Alesia's your only healer. And that way you can't give heroes kickass builds to make up for not having a good one yourself. Balanced = two monks, one-two warriors, one-two eles (three max), and fillers for the rest (assuming there's teams of 8). Although if the scorecards ideas come out, that would be an even easier way to prove it...


 * PvP... Is there any way we can really vet those builds, short of throwing it on guru and watching the response? Sorry, I'm really starting to not like guru now... --Armond Warblade (talk) 17:03, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Vetting would never occur for PvP builds. Avid PvPers would post builds made/run by/on verifiable sources (obs mode, namely), and the only discussion would be on variants. If it was merely a guild testing something out, the build would be deleted. Vetting is pointless; either the build works, or it doesn't. PvPers can tell if a build works for PvP or not. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 17:10, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
 * As I've stated before, if you want to have a way to vet builds, you're going to have to get a community of avid PvPers that know what they're doing and are willing to discuss builds. If you had the right community (and if only PvPers voted on the PVP BUILDS), then the current vetting process would be fine (though I would advocate a change from the requires 3 over or under to do a recount to a if it within 2 then it goes back to untested). However, you don't have the right community, and people who don't really know what they're doing in PvP like to vote on PvP builds, therefore, you have to find a foolproof way of doing things that requires documentation rather than opinion (like watching observer mode). --Theonemephisto 18:34, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
 * It would have been nice to have a community of hardcore PvPers at the wiki but we only have a handful of great pvpers... which does not include me. The alternative was to just have only that handful like auron, theonemephisto, warskull and skuld etc to vote on PvP builds but noooooo that's too elitist and excludes the noobs to ever say anything.  Also IMO observer mode is kinda of a double edge sword because a lot of people watch matches, and the majority doesn't know what the heck is going on or why they are using a certain skill.  I think it takes an avid pvper to really know what's going on and how they are using the build, and if you are an avid pvper then you probally won't need to use observer mode to have seen a new build being run by someone.  Also other times, guilds sometimes test builds, especially when the ladder is locked. And just because a team wins HoH once doesn't mean they had a good build, it just means they were lucky.  --Lania Elderfire[[Image:Pinkribbonsig.gif|My Talk]] 20:22, 27 March 2007 (CDT)


 * if farming builds are the only builds that can be 100% proven to work through videos, why not just have those builds here on the wiki? I would not mind that :) Trevor3443 18:32, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Because, you can't prove 100% that a farming build works with a video. You could wait for one perfect run with a perfect spawn and whatever and just get a video of that.  A video doesn't get a sense of how often a build works which is one of the key elements of farming.  It also can't prove that a build is easy to use.  Anyways, if we were gonna document one thing, it would be PvP builds from verifiable sources.  Defiant Elements  (talk ~ contribs) 18:58, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

If need, I'm willing to make farming videos of 2 runs in a row for all of my builds, zoning in a portal and coming back in the same video to re-farm the same area again... but then I suppose someone could edit the video.

Here is another idea I have for the farming build section, those who vote must supply a picture of the mob / boss killed after the farm. This ensures that they have tested it with success. Not sure if that would work so swell either, but it shows that it was possible by others ...if a build is not easy to use (55 monks, most UW builds) it should be stated in the build itself that it may take some practice to master. Is there not verifiable sources for farming builds? Trevor3443 19:43, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
 * The only real verification you could have are builds that are obviously tried and true. Like a 55 or Mist Form Farmers or trappers or something.  Defiant Elements  (talk ~ contribs) 19:51, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
 * You voted on 2 of my builds, Build:E/D Sandstorm Vermin Farmer and Build:E/R EoE Bomb so I guess those are ok then? don't all the builds work in the tested section of farming? or is it that it is the amount of builds that is overwhelming? Trevor3443 20:31, 27 March 2007 (CDT)


 * The wording where I read this is to complicated for a small brain like mine. So the Build Page is coming down? Nothing else, like say, the section on skills? So I can still look up when Barrage does, but not find builds that use it correct? &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.164.209.19 (contribs).
 * Exactly so. --Dirigible 17:41, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Only builds. And if a new build policy is decided on, the builds section will be back later. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 17:43, 2 April 2007 (CDT)

Redirects/lost builds
For the ones that aren't in the categories/redirects. Good job we used slashes that conflicted with the software, haha.

&mdash; Skuld 13:02, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

Worrisome Effects
I understand the many benefits of the build wipe, and am not arguing against it. However, while I agree that this would theoretically reduce policy violations and alleviate tension, has anyone else noticed the rapidly growing schism between supporters of this and those who oppose it? I am seeing members of this community quite literally crash and burn in too many instances. Good users who have contributed for as long as I have been here are leaving the Wiki and ceasing to care. They are crashing and burning, and it is at least partially a result of the Build Wipe. I understand the necessity of the build wipe, but I cannot imagine that Tanaric and the other supporters of the wipe intended this animosity to result. In fact, at least in the short term, I can see much greater friction and tension between users. Except, rather than the policy violations of Anon users, what we have is worse. It is one thing to have tension created by fringe elements (i.e. Anons and new contributers), it is quite another to have members of the core community quite literally giving up on GuildWiki. I don't know what to say actually. I don't know if there is any "good" course of action we can be taking at this point, but, at the very least, I find the effect this is having on the Wiki community perturbing. Thoughts? Defiant Elements (talk ~ contribs) 13:52, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * "I am seeing this community quite literally crash and burn in too many instances."
 * I'm pretty sure I've read all the talk on BW, PNB, NOB, and PG, but I haven't seen evidence of this. Yes, I do see that not everyone agrees with the wipe, but I don't think a 100% majority was ever expected. -- Peej 13:59, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Not what I meant. I never thought everyone should agree, I mean people are taking this as a reason to just stop caring about GuildWiki anymore.  And I am not talking about new users, I mean some of the experienced ones as well.  Defiant Elements  (talk ~ contribs) 14:03, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * It's not like builds on wiki are doomed forever, ::you can still post them on your user page. Although I have to admit I used the builds section on Wiki quite a lot, because (the good builds) were always up to date and were fully explained. It's a shame that the builds section became too big to manage, I guess this is one of the reasons for the PNB. The users who are leaving because of this wipe, should just post their builds on their user page. If the community know that that user posts good builds, I for one would check out his/her user page. Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|19px]] 14:09, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * I don't see why [people would leave just because of build wipe]. The only thing I can conclude we might lose is the vetting process, and if you're leaving the entire wiki over that, you're probably one in that "only posting builds to attempt to get a build vetted" category anyway.  If even half as much effort goes into a user-space build section as it did for backing up the build section, all the most important information will be back in about 24 hours. -- Peej 14:11, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * I happen to agree. I was just as involved as anyone else in the build section, I created 14+ favored builds.  And, I am still contributing despite a nearly crippling blow to my favorite part of the wiki.  I am not saying there is anything rational about quitting, but that it is happening.  I think perhaps that it is more an objection to the spirit of PNB and NOB than the actual effects of those policies.  Defiant Elements  (talk ~ contribs) 14:13, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * I hate to use an actual editor as an example, and if this qualifies as a violation of GW:NPA I am terribly sorry, but take a look at NightAngel's recent contributions as well as his talk page... that kind of change in behavior is the quintessence of what is worrying me. Defiant Elements  (talk ~ contribs) 14:15, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * "I think perhaps that it is more an objection to the spirit of..." You could use the same argument for "why can't I make a page for my guild?" though. Openness is nice, but limits are necessary.  As all builds are opinion based and this wiki tries to document facts, I'd say it's lucky builds were ever allowed in the first place. -- Peej 14:18, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Well, considering I personally agree with the build wipe, you are preaching to the choir. I am just worried.  Defiant Elements  (talk ~ contribs) 14:20, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * "I think perhaps that it is more an objection to the spirit of..." You could use the same argument for "why can't I make a page for my guild?" though. Openness is nice, but limits are necessary.  As all builds are opinion based and this wiki tries to document facts, I'd say it's lucky builds were ever allowed in the first place. -- Peej 14:18, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * If you aren't a native English speaker, you have to read some of these posts twice to understand lol. There's just one thing I'm wondering though... How will we know which users will be posting builds on their user page? Will there be any way for them to communicate it with us? And I also agree that Wiki is for facts, I guess that's why they are adding the popular builds only from now on, but who will be the judge of which builds are "flavour of the month" etc Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|19px]] 14:22, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Perhaps we can make templates for user builds and then have a category for them? Another solution would be the one I put in the policy I wrote: Profession Guides which would be that we create guides for each profession role and then let users link original builds from the userspace to those pages via templates.  Defiant Elements  (talk ~ contribs) 14:24, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Thank you (Silver Sunlight), you just confirmed the point I was about to make. ;) I read the most recent section on NightAngel's talk page, and I'd say most of the debate stems from not having all the relevant information.  NightAngel seemed to miss the entire fact that builds will still be allowed if not encouraged in user-space.  And for Silver Sunlight, no one will "judge" them: they will be documented when they show up  regularly in observer mode (see No Original Builds policy).  PvE original builds will be categorically linked from user-space to profession role guides (if that stuff gets to be official, see Profession Roles "policy"). -- Peej 14:27, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Perhaps the fact that some users don't know enough about these policies is worrisome enough in itself. Defiant Elements (talk ~ contribs) 14:29, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

(reset indent) Yes, someone needs to just make a BWPNBNOBPG policy page that explains everything. ;) -- Peej 14:31, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Edit conflicts galore lol... I think the templates are a good idea, but just like the normal builds section, the number of pages containing the template will become huge. There has to be a way to limit the people who can add this template to their pages, so that we know that there will be good builds listed there. Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|19px]] 14:32, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * True, but if all the builds are in the userspace, it won't matter how many there are since they are in the domain of the user and don't have to be policed by anyone. <font color="DodgerBlue">Defiant Elements  (talk ~ contribs) 14:37, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm sure some bored people will make their way through the build categories every once in awhile and make notes about anyone tagging builds incorrectly. True, the distinction between good ("vetted") and bad builds will be gone, but with some good profession guides, you'll learn to be able to better evaluate a build on your own.  There's no harm in trying a bad build anyways: if you only die with it, stop using it. :P -- Peej 14:37, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * I see a great rise in my /deaths command's number hehe... It's just going to be so much harder to find good builds from now on, ill just start with Defiant Elements' page :P Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|19px]] 14:41, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Well... I do have the majority of vetted builds on a virutal drive on my computer. I think I still have most of those links left on wiki.  Try typing "Defiant Elements" into the search engine with the "user" search category box checked.  <font color="DodgerBlue">Defiant Elements  (talk ~ contribs) 14:42, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * &mdash; Skuld 14:43, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * I don't think it'll be that much harder. Anything "popular" (for PvE), like touch ranger, necro battery, etc should have a profession role guide associated with it, and the linked category should give you all the variants and similar builds in the user-space.  Whether or not those are good might be questionable, but at least they should be relevant. -- Peej 14:46, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Maybe this won't be all bad, we might see more original builds in Guild Wars from now on, since no one will copy wiki's :P Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|19px]] 14:51, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Actually, I think that is another benefit of the Profession Guide policy. We document enough to aid in the build creation process, enough that newer users won't start off by making completely horrendous choices, but, we don't give enough that they can simply copy the build.  They still have to think for themselves, we can just help guide their decisions.  <font color="DodgerBlue">Defiant Elements  (talk ~ contribs) 15:53, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * I guess we'll just have to wait and see how everyone handles this after the build wipe... Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|19px]] 05:27, 30 March 2007 (CDT)

Today?
Supposely this starts going into effect today, and the template doesn't even exist yet. :O -- Peej 14:59, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeh, I noticed that... -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 15:07, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Bump! -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 16:19, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Lazy people!


 * I thought about making it red and shiny like Template:Warning, but was worried that it would look too obtrusive to be on the Main Page. Anyways,  . --Dirigible 16:56, 2 April 2007 (CDT)

Is this ever happening?--Nog64Talk 16:59, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Just posted (by Rainith and Gem). -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 17:08, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Happy now? --Rainith 17:08, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * What the? I posted this on the Community portal page at the same time as Rainith and didn't get an edit conflict. Wtf? --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 17:09, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I blame Jesus.--Nog64Talk [[Image:Yaaaay.png|19px]] 17:12, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I've finally received 'immunity against edit conflicts'? --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 17:17, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * User:Gem/"Coming Through!". :D --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 17:33, 2 April 2007 (CDT)

I am happy now. ;) -- Peej 17:13, 2 April 2007 (CDT)

The rational given for the wipe is that the section is monstrous and elephantine, but there's not really any quick summary supporting this fact for the uninitiated and casual readers. As someone who's seeing the message because it's staring at me from the front page, is there any chance I could ask for a bit more of a summary of complaints to be given? Not that I disagree. 65.95.232.243 17:26, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * The builds section was causing a lot of trouble and a new policy has been under discussion, but none of the suggested policies have gotten community consensus. Thus it was decided to delete everything and start from scratch. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 17:33, 2 April 2007 (CDT)

April Fools Joke?
Is this an April Fools Joke or has this been going on for a while?--Aeris TC 17:28, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
 * No. The build section may return in the future if a new policy is decided on. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 17:29, 2 April 2007 (CDT)