Talk:Flail

Cool! Like a safer Frenzy, but you still need the cancel stance. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 15:52, 22 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Rush would be a perfect cancel stance for this since both are 4 adrenaline. But, you really don't need one. Just use a crippling attack and you can unleash a barrage of attacks on the target without a penalty. --Whizkidos 18:34, 22 September 2006 (CDT)
 * use it as an IAS for farming. I use Frenzy vs Vermin, as the degen is the only real threat, but this would work on more foes.Labmonkey 17:14, 29 September 2006 (CDT)

"You're all alone!" -> Flail -> lol -only a shadow

I want this so badly. :( -- Lagg --Me so happy. :) -- Lagg

I NEED THIS SKILL! What skill trainer has this?--Thelordofblah 00:33, 6 November 2006 (CST)
 * I capped it off Onwan, Lord of the Ntouka --SK [[Image:Warrior-icon-small.png]] 00:54, 6 November 2006 (CST)

Ahhh... Flail, the great warrior secret."Where can i cap it, wah wah wah i want everything on a platter" people bore me. I found where to get it, but I did not put it in guildwiki for purely selfish reasons, mostly having to do that this skill will eventually get nerfed to s#@! as more and more people use it. Being a NON ELITE, it is available at the gates of torment skills guy ( the dakk equivalent from prophecies ) and from one other location. It pains me that the cat is halfway off the bag, even tho the main flail page hasn't been updated yet.--Lullysing 01:58, 20 November 2006 (CST)
 * You think Flail, of all things, will get nerfed? ... Wha!? Dude, it slows your movement. That's a huge penalty. Especially since monsters run a lot more now. Everybody uses Frenzy, too (in fact, most PVPers continue to prefer Frenzy over this one) -- you don't see that getting nerfed.
 * As for where to get it... It's trivial to just spend 1000 Balthazar points for the unlock, which will make it available at all trainers in Elona. I've been playing through Nightfall with this since the first day I got it. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 02:22, 20 November 2006 (CST)
 * It's not trivial for the people who don't care one iota about PvP(and there's certainly plenty of those) and so don't wind up with Balth faction very often. DKS01 07:53, 28 November 2006 (CST)
 * Consider this a mini-PSA. How to get Balthazar Faction for PVE players:
 * Zaishen Challenges. You can "farm" faction quickly here (though there's a daily cap). Do a trapper team if you really just want to abuse it, or almost any player+hench team will work alright as long as you're not facing Degen or IWAY NPCs. Just do what you do in PVE: focus fire on one target until it dies and res fast.
 * Aspenwood. Easy, silly, and you get to have a lot of fun dying a lot. Most of the enemies you need to fight are a few NPCs.
 * &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 00:47, 1 December 2006 (CST)
 * Aspenwood STILL involves PvP. Yes, you kill NPCs too, but it's STILL PvP. You don't seem to understand I HATE PvP, in all forms. This includes Aspenwood, and it ALSO includes "pretend" PvP like Zaishen Challenge. DKS01 07:07, 14 December 2006 (CST)

They will nerf the adrenaline cost, lower the minimum time (you can still keep it up permanently even without Strength, if it's your only adrenaline skill) or add a recharge time. Or maybe not. It's useless in PvP because of the speed debuff. As for PvE, it's pretty much the only useful non-elite skill added since Prophecies.
 * Agonizing Chop, Furious Axe, Counterattack, Lion's Comfort, Sun and Moon Slash, "None Shall Pass!", Protector's Defense, Soldier's Strike. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 21:11, 24 November 2006 (CST)
 * Those skills are usable, but still not nessesary. Furious axe? I'd rather Triple-Cyclone with some adrenal based. As for the others... well, they are good/usable, but not necessary, just as Prot's Strike is in PvP.--Silk Weaker 22:37, 24 November 2006 (CST)
 * Flail isn't "necessary" either, so if that's your criteria for what makes a useful non-elite, there's apparently not many useful skills at ALL. DKS01 07:53, 28 November 2006 (CST)
 * 90% of skills for all professions are useful, more so if used in tangent with other skills. No one in this talk page said it was a necessary skill, so I have no clue how that came up. No skill is necessary in every build using the same main profession. If you think that, then you need to study your skills more. As for 130.58's statement above, he showed examples to the anon that Flail is definitely not the only useful warrior non-elite skill since Prophecies. &mdash; Gares 09:08, 28 November 2006 (CST)

A sweetass stance combo is to use Enraging Charge with this, so you are pretty much constantly stanced, and yet can both chase/rush AND tank/attack insanely fast. I used this with my stance sword, and WOW.--Lullysing 14:23, 28 November 2006 (CST)
 * Also works pretty cool with spears. Paragon OR warrior.  --Crazytreeboy 12:44, 2 December 2006 (CST)
 * It's even better with Barrage on an R/W because, in larger battles it can easily charge flail in one shot, and the range means you won't have to move much. Bring a cancel stance just in case,though.

LOL Pokémon also use Flail. --Sigm@ 14:33, 3 January 2007 (CST)

Judging by all that math on the article page, someone has a little too much free time :) Marin Bloodbane 16:40, 14 January 2007 (CST)
 * Perhaps more importantly, it's pointless, considering all existing 33% attack speed buffs work that way, while all 25% attack speed buffs net 33% more attacks in a given time. Merengue 21:42, 17 January 2007 (CST)
 * How is it pointless? It explains how it works as opposed to what the skill says happens.  The same problem with wording can be seen on other skills like Ritual Lord.  Whoever wrote the descriptions doesn't understand the difference between a rate being X% faster or slower and the action taking X% more or less time.  --Fyren 22:33, 17 January 2007 (CST)
 * That's exactly my point. On other skills.  Sticking this on this article is like saying "While blinded, foes have a 90% chance to miss with attacks" on Blinding Flash (and every other blind inducing skill).  The blind from Blinding Surge, Glimmering Mark, Throw Dirt, Blinding Powder, Blind was Mingson, and whatever else I may have forgotten all work identicly.
 * If this were some unique phenomena, I'd be all for having the note on Flail. However, since it's not, it should probably be a separate article explaining the phenomena in general, instead of pasted on each and every one of the IAS stances.  Possibly on the faster.  Merengue 00:00, 18 January 2007 (CST)
 * If the description for blind said "you have a 10% chance to miss" then yes, I would say we should note that blind is actually a 90% chance to miss. This says you attack 33% faster.  You don't.  --Fyren 00:10, 18 January 2007 (CST)
 * If I may revise my word choice then; Not 'pointless' so much as 'redundant', restating it on each skill either in its entirety, or a segment with "See Flurry for calculations".  Rather, as it IS noteworthy, but not limited to any single skill, or IAS alone, I suggest once more that it get its own article page, and a simple note such as, "This skill results in 50% more attacks over a given time" with the page as a citation. Merengue 01:46, 18 January 2007 (CST)

I don't really understand why people think this is an "incorrect" description. It says you attack 33% faster. When you use an attack, it finishes 33% faster. What's the problem?&mdash;Aranth 16:03, 21 January 2007 (CST)


 * A sword swings once every 1.33s. This is about 0.75 swings/s.  33% faster is 0.75 swings/s * 1.33 or about 1 swing/s.  This not not the actual effect.  I guess this doesn't help you, though, since it's the same thing the note says.  --Fyren 16:21, 21 January 2007 (CST)
 * I just realized that an extension of my interpretation of it (and the interpretation of the writer, apparently) to 100% faster would result in attacks taking exactly no time at all to complete. The note didn't really help to dispel that... I've read it several times and only come away more confused each time, until now. Of course, my brain is sort of doing a barrel roll in my head right now so I don't really consider myself qualified to rewrite it more clearly :p &mdash;Aranth 16:32, 21 January 2007 (CST)
 * Alright, step aside folks :) The grammar Nazi is here! What are you intending to do to the explanation for IAS? Do you want to shorten it, clarify it? If you can give me a general idea, I'll reword it appropriately. GrammarNazi 22:03, 3 February 2007 (CST)
 * It's since been updated and I think it's fine now.&mdash;Aranth 10:21, 4 February 2007 (CST)
 * Mmm, good to hear :)GrammarNazi 17:48, 4 February 2007 (CST)

Lukas?
the skill icon looks a lot like lukas [hench] from factions --Thefez 19:03, 11 March 2007 (CDT)
 * zomg! Echo ftw 14:56, 19 March 2007 (CDT)

It also looks a lot like the guy on the Crippling Slash icon -Damasus 10:10, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

Related Skills
Shield Stance is related, 33% speed loss, just different effects. -- frvwfr2  (talk)(contributions) 21:01, 26 May 2007 (CDT)
 * That relation is about as non-helpful as it gets. People aren't going to be interested in finding stances to slow themselves down.  --Fyren 21:08, 26 May 2007 (CDT)
 * I thought related skills was for skills that were similar, not skills that went well together... That seems like the right idea to me... re-reverting, b/c I disagree. Discuss please. --[[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] frvwfr2  (talk)(contributions) 22:20, 26 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Don't re-revert in the middle of discussion, it's bad manners. Flail is an IAS. Shield stance isn't. I can see frenzy being listed, because they're both IAS; shield stance and flail just aren't related.
 * If we're going to use such silly things as "both make you move 33% slower," even though they have no relation, why don't we list all skills in the Elementalist line that do Lightning damage on each Air Magic skill page? Isn't that related? -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 22:28, 26 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Ehhh... I kinda see, but I still believe it should be related. They have the same speed loss and same type of skill. That seems enough to warrant similarity to me. But whatever, go ahead and change it back if you want. --[[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] frvwfr2  (talk)(contributions) 22:34, 26 May 2007 (CDT)
 * As I said, it's about being helpful. Working together is not a reason to list something as related, anyway.  No one will care that both are -33% movement. No one is interested in this because of it and will think, "gee, flail's nice, but I'm looking for something a little different to snare myself." If you add cruft to the related sections, people won't click on the listed skills in any of the articles, and then there's no point in having them.  --Fyren 22:40, 26 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Not that anyone cares any more, or that I plan to take a side, but I would point out that maybe it would be useful in the sense that someone might have a build that doesn't care about slowdown (for whatever reason) and is looking to see what all they can do with it. Just a thought.  Hashmir 01:45, 18 June 2007 (CDT)
 * They'd probably look at Movement Speed quick reference if they wanted to slow themselves down. --Kale Ironfist 02:01, 18 June 2007 (CDT)