Talk:Aggressive Refrain

So this is basically an unlinked skill? There's gonna be some kind of downside to it, or W/P will be using this with "Watch Yourself!" at 0 Tactics. Sure, Warriors have a hard time with the initial cost, but tell me it wouldn't be worth it... 149.169.109.183 19:46, 23 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Yeah plus you just cast this before battle in say team battles. And just have a paragon chanting for no particular reason to keep it up. (Not a fifty five 14:28, 26 September 2006 (CDT))
 * Because at 25e, 15% DP will render it useless.172.143.33.145 19:37, 5 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Just like with avatar of Melandru, you bring a high energy set for when you have DP. --Fyren 19:44, 5 May 2007 (CDT)

Good thing Rangers and Necros get some dedicated Shout/Chant hate. --RolandOfGilead 14:55, 26 September 2006 (CDT)

Now duration varies with attribute lvl. Can be maintained almost indefinitely with "Watch Yourself" at 0 tactics, "Go for the Eyes" and Devona shouting "Charge!" for instance

This skill can be useful for ranger primaries that have around 12 in expertise.
 * No it can't, because Expertise does not affect Echos. Arshay Duskbrow 07:01, 14 February 2007 (CST)

lmao lasting 5 at 0 leadership and then costing 25e? I dont think so buddy.

Ever notice that para's cast this at the beginning of a match and then never recast it? It's a pretty darn good skill if you ask me: cast once at the beginning, Go for the Eyes and Anthem of Flame are all you need. Anooneemiss 00:14, 7 May 2007 (CDT)

How does head piece swapping affect this? If u have 11 in leadership and a +4 leadership head piece it lasts 25 seconds. If u then swap to a spear mastery head piece and refresh it, would it last 21 (or 20 if u have no minor rune) or 25 seconds? 77.241.133.175 16:23, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I thought you can't switch head gear during PVP matches? I don't know about now, but my guildie once had to do a whole AB match with a pumpkin head... -- Vickie 03:13, 13 October 2007 (UTC) (edited signature. Didn't realise I was logged out...)

Odd nerf this skill just got. Could be interesting with Plague Signet, if you keep sending it off to someone every time the echo gets reapplied. 79.179.142.218 21:09, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

poor baby aggressive!
way to overnerf! This means that if you are running a team with alot of paragons, you basically have permanent cracked armor. I mean, I was thinking, this isn't so bad if you have SoP but it will get reapplied as SoP ends. If you want to use this, you have to take cracked armor pretty often. They only way to make this not suck would be to only use it if the only shout/chant that you're going to encounter is only used just often enough to keep this from ending. Aggressive gets reapplied whenever anything ends which means that during the course of a match, it gets reapplied pretty frequently. More often than it would need to be just to keep it up. So basically, if you want to use a lot shouts and chants, forget aggressive refrain cause you'll be screwing yourself over with shouts and chants. &mdash; ♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 00:55, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Your armor is so high anyway, -20 only means you actually try to kite now. Before, as Ensign put it, they just laughed at you and continued standing there, throwing spears. Just from shield and insignia, you got +26 armor (+18 if you didn't meet the shield req), so the -20 is just balancing the profession properly.--Kale Ironfist 02:34, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The point of the Paragon was to have a high armor support class that could help the front lines easier. What's the point of having so much armor if it's just going to be taken away?  You might as well just run a softer body.  Miss Innocent 03:37, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Have you even played a paragon? --Blue.rellik 03:45, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Sigh. No point in playing my paragon anymore. They really need to fix the primary attributes of paragons and ritualists. Give ritualists the energy management, hand paragons the longer lasting shout% (like the current spawning's 2% per attribute for weapon spells). Anywho, this made me cry :( .--Lann 04:40, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * That or give ritualists some better E-Management skills that arn't elites. --Lann 04:42, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I just confirmed that the condition IS re-applied when the echo is re-applied, this seemed obvious to me, but people were asking.--Darksyde Never Again 03:51, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Look, i've played a paragon non-stop for months now, im pretty close to 20 maxed titles, goin for 30, and I use aggressive. And gfty. You can imagine how upset I was to see both nerfed. You know what? It doesn't matter. Foes ignored me before, they keep ignoring me now. On the occasions when I AM hit, any decent monkage (including heroes) is enough to keep me alive. Stop crying to the heavens about any nerf saying you'll stop playing this or that. Yes. Constantly having cracked is a pain, but so what? I suggest using purifying finale on a hero (which I already did) to avoid overburdening monk energy. NightAngel 06:09, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * NightAngel, I thank you for showing some intelligence. Kudos --Blue.rellik 06:37, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I like this change - combines very nicely with plague sending :-) Morzan 11:29, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * This is such a dumb nerf, wouldn't have minded the lower armour but a condition??? As a paragon you'll be usiing lots of shouts and chants and re-applying this condition constantly, if you do get other conditions on you the monk will never be able to remove them as you now create your own cover condition. Great! I vote for a public flogging of whichever dumbass at ANet thought this one up. Ajax Baby Eater 12:42, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * With the GftE and watch yourself nerfs its not going to be coming up that often. Lord of all tyria 12:50, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Cover condition? Learn to use Draw Conditions on an off-monk. --Kale Ironfist 13:37, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Draw might be prevalent in PvP but PvE is where these constant ParaRape Nerfs really hurt 79.73.112.197 15:51, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * And even after all these nerfs, Paragons are still strong, even in PvE. They only hurt a profession that is so strong, it NEEDED nerfs. --Kale Ironfist 23:24, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah it's such a good nerf that now ... In theory, A single Fragility with proper cover hex is enough to beat a Chant and Shout spamming Paragon team using Agressive Refrain. Cracked Armor is kinda ugly for that reason in my opinion a pure -20 Armor would have been way much better than this. Still, I don't think fragility is much of a problem since most of natural Paragon Counter... (Well of Silence, Vocal Minority, Ulcerous Lungs and now Fragility) aren't part of any meta-game... --24.200.21.124 00:35, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Fragility hasn't been seen in high-level PvP since...well...forever. Hex removal anyways. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 00:40, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

DAMMIT
Why Does Anet Torture us Paragon lovers for? hmm, as if paragons need a nerf they were fine without it.. im pissed


 * Is -20AL really that big a deal? [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 18:47, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes. They uber-nerfed paraspike. A team of 8 spearchucking warriors was good. A team of 8 spearchucking squishies is baed. [[Image:PaintballerSig.jpg]] The Paintballer (T/C) 19:01, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * 80AL is squishy? [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 19:05, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Purifying Finale. --66.131.53.220 19:32, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * 80AL -20 from cracked armor. If you have a team of paragons, they are throwing shouts and chants left and right. You can't stop the cracked armor from being applied. It isn't an enchant which can be stripped or forced to end. It isn't a stance that can be canceled. If you find yourself under the pressure, your entire team would have to stop using shouts and chants so that it could end on you. Aggressive Refrain is not frenzy! It can't be flipped on an off like a switch. And it's not a matter of just removing the cracked armor because on a paragon team, its getting reapplied almost constantly. This is just way too much!&mdash; ♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 19:10, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Do you know what Shield and Insignia are? [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 19:12, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * "And it's not a matter of just removing the cracked armor because on a paragon team, its getting reapplied almost constantly." Oh, so you're saying Anet doesn't want a full Para team? Hm.... --Macros 19:52, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Look, I run alot of paraspike in HA. We run it well and often because it is successful and we are good at it. We have been tweaking our build for months and finally settled into the perfect bars for the team. And I can tell you, its far from overpowered. Vocal Minority and other anti-shout/chant tactics are very effective. Roaring Winds (when not used with EW) can play major havoc with the energy management. Blind and Blurred vision will stop us just as easily as any other non-caster. Using line of sight and the terrain is usually rather efficient. And although, like many spike teams, we bring Gaze of Contempt and other enchantment removal, SoD, Aegis and Guardian will blunt the spikes and make it harder for us to build adrenaline and blocking techniques that we can't remove (DA, Weapon of Warding, stances) will really slow us down. This nerf to aggressive is going to effect paraspike most strongly when, it didn't really need to be nerfed. &mdash; ♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 20:07, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'll concede that point, Entropy, but we paras are supposed to have higher AL overall. Its our present for only getting 2 energy regen. (And don't say that Leadership gives us more energy because we already have lots more energy skills than our warrior brothers. Our high AL is part of being a paragon. &mdash; ♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 19:49, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Um, no. Your present for having crappy energy regeneration IS Leadership, because it's more broken than Soul Reaping, and that's saying something. Besides, you STILL have more armor than most professions. This nerf is only just giving you an effective perma -10 armor. --Kale Ironfist 23:24, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

On another note, balance teams ftw. I think ANet just likes to nerf any teams that rely heavily on 1...3 skills (Aggressive Refrain, WY, GftE; SF) and only one or two Professions (Para, Monks; Ele, Monks). (T/C) 23:28, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well perhaps if they buffed some of the many uber crap skills the pargon class is overloaded with perhaps we wouldn't have to rely on such a narrow group of skills to make builds. But no, this nerf takes so much less thought to do than actually balancing the paragon properly. These last few skills balances we have seen from ANet have been just been idiotic knee jerk nerfs to what people are whining loudest about getting beat by in HA. We need proper skill balances with some thought put into them and less attention paid to those just whining about what they get beat by. There are some genuine imba builds atm and I certainly don't think Para's were in that bunch, try Assacasters & Spiritway, now that need balancing way more than paraspike. Ajax Baby Eater 01:10, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Uhhh.....
Aggressive Refrain + Remedy Signet + whatever you want to do. It's not like it's a massive nerf of any kind. You should just try not to renew it ALL the time. Seb2net 20:21, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It's rather difficult not to renew it all the time. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 20:36, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

(responding to Seb2net)Oh what a great answer, why didn't we think of that, oh wait, we did, and it was tested and proven that it applies every single time, meaning that with anymore than 1 or 2 Paragons,you're going to have it constantly re-applied--Darksyde Never Again 16:43, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Chest thumper finally works
Build:P/N Quacker's Crack Chest Thump This build is in PVX I dont noe how to link but go read it it actaully make refrain's crack worthwhile. Kullwarrior

idea
I had this idea yesterday, but have not been able to test it. which triggers first, AR reapplyin cracked armour or purifying finale removing a condition? if the finale trigers after AR, then the cracked armour can be instantly removed. It may depend on the order they are on you, but as AR will be on top most of the time, then this should not be a problem. I think i will test that, right away, be back with a response in say, 10 mins. &mdash; ~ Soqed Hozi ~  18:49, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

BIG NEWS: it does work, if you have purifying finale on you and a shout or chant ends on you, you lose the cracked armour immediately. This is good, but, it shouldnt have to be like this. Also means you wll never remove any conditions other than cracked armour if u use both AR and PF. &mdash; ~ Soqed Hozi ~  19:01, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah I had already tried using it, I can confirm it works. But this kind of adefeats the idea of purifying finale realy, perhaps the ought to change the text for it to; "For 28 seconds this skills negates the nerf to Agressive Refrain of the 12th Oct 2007" and that is the only effect u get from 1 skill slot. Why didn't they just do this as negative armour level whilst attacking without the condition. Ajax Baby Eater 19:20, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Because it is broken? The 15/-10al inscription is broken too, my favorite PvP inscrip ^^ Free bonus dmg is teh hax, and I doubt they'll do it right with this then --[[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (s)talkpage 13:03, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Aggressive Refrain on a secondary Paragon
This has FotM written all over it!

D/P Aggressive Melandru

Then add one or more of the following on teammates:
 * Infuriating Heat
 * Weapon of Fury
 * Anthem of Fury
 * Mark of Fury
 * Dark Fury
 * Balthazar's Spirit
 * "Watch Yourself!"
 * "Go for the Eyes!"

You'll either have Shouts ending on you fast enough to keep up Aggressive Refrain, or you'll gain enough Adrenaline to keep spamming "Dodge This!" in less than 5 seconds. And best of all, you can totally ignore Cracked Armor! It's so win! (T/C) 22:13, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Suggestionl: Use AoB? Its good enough to take out the cracked armor but you will die faster than normal AoB dervishes and they drop pretty fast. Flechette 08:18, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

THat build has more energy issues than China. :) Just trying to cast melandru and aggressive at the start of a battle will require 15-1 weap AND offhand. Please. Nerfed as they are, leave Paragons alone, don't leech their skills :) NightAngel 12:32, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Better to raise a single minion and mail your Cracked Armor to it using Infuse Condition, methinks. Necro primary can nicely handle the cost of spear attacks and the 25e cost of AR, and do serious +damage with Barbs and/or Order of Pain. Not sure if a spear chucking necro is less ridiculous than an AR derv, though. The Good Life 13:48, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Still need at least one Shout thing to keep AR going, though...Although I think Infuse Condition is a great idea. P/N could work. (T/C) 06:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Just use Resilient Weapon and get +4 armor than normal and a bit of health regen. Cracked Armor isn't all that scary. 193.52.24.125 12:10, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Just Thinking...
The loss of armor isn't much of a penalty for a Paragon. The 'cracked armor' condition is just annoying (especailly for PvE).

How about removing the armor penalty, and maybe putting GFTE and WY back to the way they were, and having AR as:

For 5..21 seconds, you attack 25% faster but have 10% chance to miss with attacks. This Echo is reapplied every time a Chant or Shout ends on you.

(Or '20% chance to miss with attacks' depending on balance).

- Innocence. 192.6.178.101 12:26, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * or put it back as it was and always should be. &mdash; ~ Soqed Hozi ~  20:01, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It was too good, srsly. Reverting it would only mean nerfs for other Paragon skills. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 06:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

It was not good enough. Just revert it (along with GftE and WY) and buff it up to 33%. This was their one and only non elite IAS skill. Or give paragons more options: warriors have 7, rangers 6. If not, cracked armour is not a problem. You’re the least of the opponents’ worries, struggling to get some energy out of GftE ad WY in the middle of 20 or so spirits because the other team had the intelligence to bring some Rt and R instead of the now useless P(igeons). Spirits burning now? Searing Flames rebuff? ROFLMAO

And an idea for a new skill: Swan Song - You lose 5 energy and 10 adrenaline for each ally knocking his head on the wall for bringing you along, you poor looser birdy. Dionyssios 08:43, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Poor little child, someone can't handle playing the game a bit more fairly? --Blue.rellik 08:46, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Poor your mother, I didn't insult you, and I bet I have double your age. I have just been playing P since the beginning of this month, and that's too much. It was fairly interesting and fun. Well it isn't anymore. Time to get my Mesmer out of Eden. Dionyssios 09:23, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Someone needs to write a page called "Why paragons were/are broken", it would savea lot of time. Lord of all tyria 09:25, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh poor baby, feel so hard? Don't worry honey, I'm sure maybe one day ANet will make Paragons overpowered again so you can go back to needing no skill. --Blue.rellik 09:27, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Lord of all tyria, in the meantime all one needs to do is to play paragon and see why. Or even just watch some GvG after the nerf. Blue rellik, the reason your P is still level 11 is that paragons are so underpowered that you didn't even bother levelling her up. Get level 20 and then we can talk some more. Dionyssios 09:45, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Poor little child, don't worry rellik won't hurt you. What hurts you the most? The fact that you don't have nigh-unlimited energy most of the time? Or is it maybe that you're now around Ranger level armour now with AR? Poor thing. Don't worry sweetie, maybe if you looked at the big picture then you could see how overpowered they are. --Blue.rellik 09:47, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

LOL, are you 11 years old or what? I don't have a P anymore, deleted already. Get over it. Dionyssios 09:54, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Estimating one's age without a backup arguement is a sure tale sign that you've lack a real arguement. Keep it up kid, you go think Paragons suck while I'll pack them and tear through the game --Blue.rellik 10:06, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * BuuuurrrrnnnnRT | Talk 11:16, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Blue Rellik, name calling can be seen as a personal attack. Unless you want to discuss this with the admins, you better [] --Lann 10:47, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes I agree. Now point out where I was throwing names around --Blue.rellik 11:05, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I would think calling others a child or a baby would be a breach of No Personal Attacks. Take some time to cool your head B.r. --Kale Ironfist 11:21, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * That is a personal attack? Soon calling someone 'human' will be an insult. People need to distinguish between a flamer and a prick. I am the latter --Blue.rellik 11:23, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

not overpowered
paragons have never been overpowered, or even balanced. anyone ho thinks paragons are balanced now needs to look past those rose tinted specs ur wearing. Look around towns, how many paras do you see, much less than any other profession. how many times do you read on fansites about people deleting their paragons compared to any other profession, well, thats all the time for paras and once in a 50 for others. Paras are poorer in smaller partys, and for what they offer to a party now is meagre, and was never incredibly great anyway. DPS is lower than warriors, rangers, assassins and dervs, and are outdamaged by the eles and rits over time. The attack buffs are merely anthem of envy, disruption, weariness, flame and gfte. defense buffs are stand your ground, incoming and danthem. Wake up and see it, paras are weaker than any other class. I still love my para, but it requires skill to be an acceptable part of any team now. What can the para do? not much now, not much at all. If anyone wants to discuss this, make it on my talk page. &mdash; ~ Soqed Hozi ~  18:18, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
 * You failed when you said "paragons have never been overpowered". They have been since inception, and PvE is NOT the best indicator of knowledge. Mathematically, Warriors are the best damage dealers in the game, but add that characteristic (slightly toned down on attack skills) to an infinite energy, ranged character with strong passive defense support. They are, effectively Warriors at range without the energy restraints while still being able to back up their back line without needing to take their attention away from their targeted foe. --Kale Ironfist 11:14, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Kale said it all. Also, paragons are still broken, in both PvP and PvE. 220.101.137.223 11:42, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Rangers have some of the worst DPS in the game. A Ranger and a Paragon just auto-attacking with no buffs would show you that spears are so much bettar. Why do you think people use the R/P builds? [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 19:25, 20 October 2007 (UTC)