User talk:Xasxas25616711

Archive 1 25 October 2005 to 29 November 2006 Archive 2 30 November 2006 to 3rd June 2008

Hiya
Even though you are not particularly active anymore, I would still like you to comment on User:Entropy/bureaucrat if you so wish. I was expecting a little bit more attention from the general public, so now I'd like at least all the sysops to chime in. After all, those are the people it most directly affects. If you're indifferent then I apologize for spam, and if you're busy I'm sorry for giving more work...nevertheless I desire your comments. (T/C) 05:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No dramas. I'm probably on more than you'd expect but when I look at the RC it seems to be a lot of random user talk which I'm not involved in. The user base has matured, there's not very many new users to help out these days and it seems like people make less editing mistakes. The content filter is back on but the GWiki has remained unblocked so I presume I'll be able to continue to access the site indefinitely at work, or until I change jobs. I did have a look at that when you first wrote it but I'll add it to my watchlist (what's one more when there's already 1000 in the list!) and hopefully I'll have some time to fully read over it and comment later in the day. --Xasxas256 02:01, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, eyes in the sky are always useful against vandals and such...and checking in without editing is better than not checking in at all. :) While there are still a lot of mistakes to fix when you look for them, I can understand how it must feel after a long absence. Even though I've never taken quite such long absence, I can attest for how much GuildWiki has changed since I first joined long time ago... [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 23:51, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry I didn't post anything, the discussion didn't ever seem to be going anywhere nasty and I could see that your decision was probably going to be predictable. I'm not sure that Auron's skills of "telling it like it is" is actually very useful here, I'd suggest diplomacy is preferable for the role, in a way a bureaucrat is the unofficial community relations manager of the wiki. Anyway there's probably more I could say but I think there's been enough said about the position already. I'm not speaking out against your choices, as I said earlier they were straight forward and I have no problems with either appointment, just a comment that it's important to be careful and not to let your judgement be clouded by friendships and in particular off wiki interactions I don't know if I agreed with all of your reasoning even if the decision itself was agreeable. --Xasxas256 02:48, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

hi
Hello. &mdash;♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 23:18, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Hey! Had a big long weekend, for those of us in the Commonwealth and living it Victoria it was Queens Birthday holiday on Monday. Went up to Winton raceway for a track day, still buzzing now! You're probably not that interested in hearing about it (and probably nobody else here is either) so I won't harp on but yeah, good fun! :) Life's good although the bank account is a bit worse for wear (and about to get even worse still!) I virtually don't game these days but after last weekend I really don't miss it. --Xasxas256 02:48, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yup, Queen Lizzie is still useful for something. :) --Wolfie [[Image:Wolfie_sig.jpg|19px]] (talk|contribs) 03:22, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually had to Google that, I've never heard of the Queen referred to as 'Queen Lizzie' before! Still I'm perfectly happy with the current arrangement although I'm not opposed to the idea of Australia becoming a republic either but we should remain a part of the Commonwealth. Gives us a better chance of in the pool without those pesky American swimmers around! --Xasxas256 04:18, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I really feel like there should be a "Cheerio!" or a "Tally hoe!" or a "Chim chimney chim chim cheroo!" after this..."&mdash;♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 04:22, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I cannot believe that Entropy is quitting, I hope it isn't permanent. I cannot help but think that this is a case of the bad guys winning. I remember a while ago looking at some Barnstars on Wikipedia and looking at some of the uploaders of interesting images that Wikipedia must be a terrible place to contribute. From the very small cross section I've looked at it would appear that an enormous proportion of the original, idealistic and most prolific members have quit in disgust and frustration at both the actions (or lack thereof) from administration and the behaviour that users are allowed to get away with. I wonder if that's what we've got to look forward to here. --Xasxas256 04:31, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * "I've never heard of the Queen referred to as 'Queen Lizzie' before!", I say with great affection, monarchist or republican, you can't fault her work ethic! And yeah, it doesn't hurt to have a foot in both camps. I for one, nearly walked from GuildWiki (details here), if we not make a stand, then sadly yes, most likely. --Wolfie [[Image:Wolfie_sig.jpg|19px]] (talk|contribs) 04:38, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Eh
If you're fully opposed to the decision, you could ask KyleH to demote Auron and R, or just R, or just Auron. You could even get a petition. &mdash; Warw/Wick 11:51, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I think people want an explanation more than they want a demotion... Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|19px]] 11:55, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I think Auron has set a very dangerous precedent here, if he continues to act in the current fashion then I will ask for him to be stood down. If I was given some assurance that his behaviour in future will be different then I'd only be too happy for him to continue on as a bureaucrat. But I think the only thing he wanted to do differently was to not have an RFA at all! To me this is a giant step backwards for the GWiki. The people may have changed here but I still firmly believe that the old ideals are still valid. I'm sorry to speak like a relic but I don't see why a bureaucrat can promote whomever they like, without explanation and expect the community to accept it. Going purely on your own judgement and not listening to the opinions of others is poor leadership to me.


 * This no longer relates to the matter at hand and is more general but a bureaucrat is basically a judge right? A judge requires a certain amount of subtlety and delicacy when dealing with some matters. A judge may also need to be firm and uncompromising on other occasions, Auron's got too much of the latter and not enough of the former. Sometimes the decision itself isn't really that important, because it's a small matter or perhaps both sides have equally valid arguments, but what is important is that both parties feel that they got a fair hearing. If you deliver the decision in a brash manner then you look egotistical and the losing party will always be unhappy and you become a poorer judge for it. Even if a different judge reached the same decision, if they judge carefully listened to both parties then at least there's a chance that the losing party will feel satisfied that they got a fair hearing. I don't think Auron understands this, from what I've observed, he places to much emphasis on the decision itself and that the ends justifies the means. I like that Auron's beliefs are strong but in this case I cannot agree with him at all, someone will have to make a decision here.


 * Bureaucrats don't really do that much, their main job is to decide who should be promoted or demoted and arbcomm decisions, it's quite a specific role. So if I call for him to step down, it's really not as much of a slight as you'd first think. But the position is very important symbolically and that's one of the reasons I have high expectations of our bureaucrats.


 * In answer to your original question May, I'll see what JediRogue and PanSola say first, I'd like to think that this can be sorted out ourselves, with the people and policies we have. --Xasxas256 13:16, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * As an aside, I watched No Country for Old Men yesterday; I loved the casting, loved the scenery and feel of the film and I got totally drawn right into it. But I didn't like overall it because I didn't enjoy the ending. --Xasxas256 13:21, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I'd just like to remind you that it is not in a bureaurat's job to make the "losing party" feel good. Especially if they were wrong, and/or deserved to be told. Diplomacy is great, diplomacy is good, etc etc. but all that means nothing unless there are some results at the end. I don't think we can collectively afford to pull a Karlos (I say that endearingly) at this state of affairs; the wiki just isn't strong enough anymore. Though it's not personally the way I would go about things, the fact is that Auron is working to help the Wiki stay alive, and I think it is just being petty to hold him to those high moral and ethical standards we are used to if it impedes that progress. We shall regret it later, but at least having a later is better than giving up. Desperate times and desperate measures, blah blah blah. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 09:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Pushing the 'Crats
Hi Xasxas, I've read your latest comment on PanSola's talk page. I have so far avoided on complimenting you for taking a stance in the Auron matter because, to be honest, I feel that some community members still feel I have a personal thing with Auron, and I wanted to avoid any appearance that we might be in collusion on that and damaging your position. That said, I was very happy (and still am) that you took a vocal stand on some of the issues I've raised; it helped clarify to me and perhaps to others that it's not all just in my mind. In part because of these considerations (i.e. my effectiveness in regard to my standing in the community) I was hesitant to push the matter further; you were in a better position to do that, and you did, so thank you!

I also feel your contributions are very well written; certainly better than mine. If that is your "greatest failing as a sysop" you excel at this job! PanSola manages to write a very distanced, impersonal style when the occasion arises, which is admirable, but I'm glad not every admin writes like that. I'm glad PanSola does, though. --◄mendel► 09:52, 23 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the kind words, I appreciate it. I think I should mention somewhere that I never posted on R.Phalange's talk page because I figured their sysoption wouldn't last. If R.Phalange never intended to reveal their past identity then the RFA was a bit silly, they should have known that it'd never be successful. If they knew that Auron was going to give them a leg up behind everybody's back (including the other 2 bureaucrats) when they chose not to reveal themselves, then I consider it to be deceitful to share that information with Auron alone. Despite the fact that I largely agree with what PanSola has said why is the conclusion that there should be no consequences for the two parties involved? Does this mean we should give any GWW sysops sysop rights here as well without question? What other wikis do we also accept? PvX? Other Wikia wikis? Friends of Auron's on wikis with no ties whatsoever?


 * There's another thing I've been meaning to say so I'll write it now while I'm at it. I wouldn't want a robot to be a bureaucrat, even if I was told that it always makes the correct decisions. I wouldn't trust that, who says it's always right? How do I know? I want to see the cogs ticking in a bureaucrats head, some of the decisions they have to make are tough, I want think that they struggle with these things a little, tough decisions are meant to be tough. A bureaucrat that shouts down verdicts like they're commandments, set it stone and not to be questioned loses credibility to me. How can someone, without consultation or discussion decide that we're in dire need of more good sysops, go with some conversations they've had with a person and the edits they've made on another wiki, ignore the edits they've made to this actual wiki (let's face it, R.Phalange's edits are pretty ordinary and not sysop worthy) and just promote them and not feel the need to explain this?


 * I'm asking a lot of rhetorical questions which is not something I normally do but I'm a little shaken. I'm not sure what my next step is if no warnings or sanctions come out of this. To me it would mean that the principals this wiki was built on no longer stand. We always used discussion to decide things like a whether or not we're in dire need of sysops and a candidate's worth of sysoption. It wasn't left in the hands of one rogue bureaucrat. So many of the old sysops and bureaucrats left because there wasn't enough transparency from the administration, this secret sysop business would never have stood. If the overwhelming majority feels that they can blindly follow Auron or any other bureaucrat because "they are usually right", without demanding input in the way their wiki is run and without demanding accountability when a bureaucrat messes up then I either we haven't explained ourselves well enough or I don't think I can identify very well with the community any more. I can see the more meaningless aspects of RFAs, I can see that R.Phalange might be a good sysop here but I still think that some of the actions and ethos shown recently are fundamentally wrong. I'm probably being a bit melodramatic here as there have been a number of people who've spoken up and voiced their objections but at this stage it looks like nothing is going to come of this. I haven't heard JediRogue's take on the matter so I guess I'll have to wait until she has her say before I'm allowed to get melodramatic again. --Xasxas256 14:27, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I've been endeavoring to keep out of the Auron debates because I can't trust my temper, but I would like you to know that you are not alone. There are still many people who believe that honesty, equality, justice, and compassion are fundamental- not only to keep this community alive, but to truly succeed in anything. Thank you for all you've said and done to uphold those values. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 14:47, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm in this boat too. When you made your first post to Auron's talkpage, I was struggling to write a conter-response to Auron's reply to my post.  You said everything I'd been trying to say, and then some.  I'm behind you if you decide we need to continue pushing this issue - Auron shouldn't get off with just a warning.  He's a bcrat on two other wikis already, so he should know better than to abuse his powers like this.  Wanting to help the wiki is one thing, but alienating the community while doing so is self-destructive.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:16, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

"If R.Phalange never intended to reveal their past identity then the RFA was a bit silly...",

I agree on this and am still somewhat mystified by it, but I trust Auron's judgment and Brains12/R.Phalange's GWW track record well enough. It was sheer idiocy that no one mentioned the GWW identity on the RfA page, that Brains12 explained himself after the fact, etc, etc. It is my fault also for closing the RfA too soon. But I think if everyone had been given an equal chance to say something, and idiocy had not prevailed, this would have turned into a rather normal RfA with extenuating circumstances.

"If they knew that Auron was going to give them a leg up behind everybody's back ... then I consider it to be deceitful to share that information with Auron alone."

I have done the exact same thing in the past, when I promoted Dr Ishmael. His RfA could not be called a resounding success (though certainly less sorry-looking than R.Phalange's, even allowing for ignorance etc.). I was ready to close it as failed. However, Dr Ishmael contacted me privately and personally explained what drove him towards sysoption. I went with my gut feelings and decided to give him a chance. Auron said, "Let's give R.Phalange a chance and see how it pans out", and that somehow bothers many people - but that is what I did. I gave Dr Ishmael a shot at being a sysop, and lo and behold! Look where he finds himself today...respected and welcomed as a knowledgeable, sensible member of the community, and not at all a bad sysop either. He panned out pretty damn well if I may say so myself. All this from me giving him "a leg up" behind everybody's (the non-supporters) back. Granted, I was the only active bureaucrat at the time, but that is hardly relevant - bureaucrats don't have to come to a consensus before an RfA can be acted upon.

Do you consider it deceitful that Dr Ishmael chose to contact me privately with such information? He never posted the contents of it to the Wiki. I didn't either. In my promotion reason, I said that "I have contacted this user privately", and everyone was totally cool with that. Obviously it was quite vital to his promotion, since it definitely changed my mind about him, at least enough to let him pan out. Do you think that Dr Ishmael ought to have made such information public, in order that RfA voters would be better informed?

I do not believe that Brains12/R.Phalange knew that Auron would "give them a leg up", and I do not believe that they conspired to "share [their identity] with Auron alone". In fact, I think the simple fact of the matter is (as Auron said) that no one asked until later...The whole matter is shrouded in stupid decisions which coalesced into one huge mess. If Brains12 had thought it prudent to mention who they were. If Auron hadn't been stupid while busy in RL duties. If Jedi had said something. If I had talked to Auron or Jedi before closing the RfA as a joke. I don't know. It is a universal failing of good integrity, I think. Not some shady conspiracy of promoting friends. In any case, since the matter has been explained to me, I find it best to just let the matter go. It mostly makes sense now and my suspicions are laid to rest.

"why is the conclusion that there should be no consequences for the two parties involved?"

Because it's really not that big a deal. You (that is a collective "you") are making it one. Some of your arguments, like about transparancy and past precedent of GuildWiki, make sense. However, I think if things continue in this way and the community chooses to reject its last hope for a saviour (now that I quit) in Auron, this place really is already dead. There is a time and a place for arguments like this has been, and I don't think this is one of them. Progress at any cost? Maybe. But I think the times have changed and (same as I say somewhere far above this) maybe we cannot afford the luxuries of absolute political correctness anymore.

"Does this mean we should give any GWW sysops sysop rights here as well without question? What other wikis do we also accept? PvX? Other Wikia wikis? Friends of Auron's on wikis with no ties whatsoever?"

Oh come on Xas, don't get petty. That is really blowing things out of proportion. If you at all value Auron's judgment you would not ask such outrageous, fear-mongering rhetorical questions. You yourself must realize how stupid they sound (especially to Auron himself). There are very good reasons for picking Brains12 as a sysop. He has a good track record on GWW. He has prior experience with the job. He stands out from other GWW sysops as being especially suitable for the kind of sysop we need here, right now. He has no outstanding bad edits on this wiki that cannot be accounted for. (Everyone is human, we make mistakes. My own editing past is fraught with horrors.) There are, quite honestly speaking, no great candidates on GuildWiki. (If there were any left I would have promoted them before I quit...) Just because Brains12's experience comes from GuildWiki, doesn't mean he is automatically disqualified here. It may be somewhat unprecedented, but as long as we get a good sysop, who cares? There is nothing anywhere which says an RfA candidate must come from GuildWiki. (The strong patriotism, maybe even nativism, of Guildwikians has always been something I appreciated, but especially in cases like this I think it blinds them.) Nothing about any specific requirements to the job...nothing that can't be bent or waived. In the end, it's all up to the bureaucrat. They can promote whoever they want, whenever they want, for any reason they want. If I thought that someone from PvX, or WowWiki, or Wikipedia, or...anything...would make a great sysop here, that's all that I need. If the community doesn't like it, that is unfortunate...but that is hardly abuse of powers. Bureaucrats promote each other without discission. In fact, I broke precedent by initiating such a thing. You still remember what a fiasco that turned out to be. The fact is that being promoted to bureaucrat represents something. It is symbolic, as you say. It represents that the community has vested its trust in you. The community has asked you to act on its behalf, to look out for its best interest, to make decisions which may not be popular but are ultimately right. A Wiki is not a democracy - it is a republic. If I have made a mistake in appointing Auron, it is that the community at large is unwilling to trust him, despite all my accolades - I failed to appreciate how important they held personal trust to be.

"I wouldn't trust that, who says it's always right? How do I know? ... How can someone, without consultation or discussion decide that we're in dire need of more good sysops..."

Auron is always right. Well, 99% of the time. And I am always right. 99% of the time. How do you know? Because I said so. And as much as I despise throwing around rank, my status and Auron's as bureaucrat shows that. If you really want someone to complain to, go rag on LordBiro for ever promoting me in the first place.

If I say that we are in dire need of sysops, then we are in dire need of sysops. If I say that we have enough sysops, then we have enough sysops. I control promotions. Therefore, it is my decision to make. Simple as that. I can consult with the other bureaucrats about it, certainly. But ultimately, that is the one power that a bureaucrat has, which normal users and sysops don't. If they decide that they want a new sysop, they can wait around for someone to request one through RfA, or they can go and proactively find one. They can even promote without discussion! And it's business as usual. They really are only doing their jobs.

"We always used discussion to decide things like a whether or not we're in dire need of sysops and a candidate's worth of sysoption ... this secret sysop business would never have stood."

1) Tradition does not make something right, and the argument "We always do it this way" is no good reason to continue to do so in the face of change. 2) Well, we are discussing R.Phalange's worth of sysoption now, aren't we? It's after the promotion and a bit unorthodox, but does that really hurt anyone... 3) At least you got an RfA. Sorry, but I'm really not buying into how this one strange promotion has suddenly made Auron into a goon who runs a "secret sysop business". And I'm not even "in the loop either". Times have changed, you're right about that. And I miss the old days as much as you. But I'm just not feeling the outrage here.

"If the overwhelming majority feels that they can blindly follow Auron or any other bureaucrat because "they are usually right", without demanding input in the way their wiki is run and without demanding accountability when a bureaucrat messes up then I either we haven't explained ourselves well enough or I don't think I can identify very well with the community any more."

Too late. I was that bureaucrat. Felix was the only person who ever had the courage to stand up to me.

(T/C) 09:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)