User talk:Tanaric

Old conversations and dead threads can be found on /Archives and /Archives2. If you want to dredge something up, bring the whole thread back here.

Hi
"You still regularly block users with no meaningful justification, so that a "vandal," in the cases when they are in fact vandals, see the text "bla bla bla" when they try to edit. You still regularly vote on builds with no justification, or worse, with justification that belittles not only the build in question, but the author of the build itself."


 * Heh, no-one has ever mentioned the few block messages, and the few i've done were entirely appropriate to the chlidish vandalism . Maybe I should not have done it in the first place, but even a 2 line email or something would have been appreciated. The second point, I've been trying to give better reasoning since late december, so i'm not sure what the lack of improvement is about. If you had any problems I could have sorted it out ASAP &mdash; Skuld 02:44, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * Heh, I liked "user lacks Penis" the best :D (Not a fifty five 02:58, 1 February 2007 (CST))


 * I'll agree that suspending Skuld from his sysop duties probably would have been justified in late December but that didn't happen. In the new year I'll also testify that there's been a really marked, notable improvement in his admin type edits and general user interaction.


 * Given that one of the things I liked about you most Tanaric was the fact you were/are always prepared to speak your mind and have a go at those "above" you, I'm taking a leaf out of your book. De administrating Skuld without prior warning screams of Big Brother is watching you and at any time your services may no longer be required.


 * Perhaps the fact that Skuld wasn't punished shows a failure on our part and somebody like yourself is required, someone who's made of sterner stuff and is a bit removed from the day to day happenings. On the other hand looking at the improvement in Skuld's more recent edits, maybe it shows that the system works. I don't disagree with his de sysoption as such (at least for a temporary period) but doing it now is too late to punish last years deeds.


 * I'm also worried about the fact that I post this at my own risk, I could be next as such without any warning. But I'm not posting this anonymously, I've already said that I like the way you don't pull punches so I'm not pulling any here. --Xasxas256 05:11, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * Regarding Skulds demotion see my comment on User talk:Skuld.
 * On a side note, when I was not yet an admin I always thought that the admin team has a closed forum somewhere well hidden where they can talk in private about matters like this. Now that I've been promoted to admin I'm suprised that there is no such place. I think it should be considered. This has nothing to do with the admins being "elite" or something. Just that some things are better discussed in private before the general public gets involved. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 05:55, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * I don't know if my opinion matters, but I think everyone should look at it from this direction: If Skulk weren't an admin and one was needed, would he have been made an admin? - BeXoR  [[Image:Bexor.png]] 06:11, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * Like me? Haha, I've made my comment, and I understand that as I tend to take a similar stance as Skuld on builds discussion, my comment would be biased. Still, hope you would consider that. If his tone/attitude seem harsh, I think at least his conduct is reasonable. For the amount of edits he makes, I don't think his brevity is unjustified. He usually follows them up if possible anyway. --Silk Weaker 06:25, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * Tanaric, are you aware of this? If yes, I do see that he's been trying to make better edits since then. However, I feel, and feel free to correct me, that you do not believe Skuld should have been an admin to begin with. While you are free to "rectify" a wrong selection if you must, I think it's unfortunate that we as admins gave him conflicting messages. We could discuss this at length over e-mail or in-game. I just wanted the record to show that he was warned and that his comments since that date were significantly more thought out.
 * Also, I don't quite understand your most recent moves in tandem with your decision to step away from the wiki. I would appreciate an explanation in private when you get a chance. --Karlos 06:54, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * Yes, I am aware of that. I have not seen the sort of marked improvement that would have swayed me. I won't argue that he hadn't improved, only that he hadn't improved enough.


 * Truth be told, I think Skuld's appointment was premature. However, I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Six months is sufficient, I should think.


 * As always, you will have your private explanation. This offer goes to anybody else as well -- anytime you'd like to discuss something that is perhaps inappropriate for the GuildWiki, you can contact me privately.


 * (For the curious, I've received no angry email about this, and the only instant messages I've received are from those admins with whom I regularly correspond anyway.)


 * &mdash;Tanaric 14:45, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * Well I'm not trolling, but I want to do the pout emote anyway.


 * /pout -210.3.39.32 18:22, 1 February 2007 (CST)

This seems as good a spot on the page to post this as any, if not, move it where you see fit. I just wanted to give you (Tanaric) my $0.02 on the last 24 hours events.

Like more than a few people, while I agree in general with the events, I feel strongly that they could have been handled better. Skuld had caused issues in the past, and ruffled more than a few feathers (especially in the builds area), but since Karlos' warning there had been a marked improvement. While Karlos may be an imposing figure, AFAIK one Admin cannot block another, so his warning could not be considered "official" and that is what I believe Skuld should have received. An "Official Warning" of some sort from someone with the power to demote him. I believe you mentioned that you had warned him before too, unless this happened "off-wiki" I'm at a loss as to where it occurred. The last post you made to Skuld's talk page was in October, and all you asked was that he slow down on his reverts. No warning, just "slow down." So if you could point out where you warned him that his actions could result in him being "demoted" from Adminship, I'd appreciate it.

The second big events were the creation of two new Admins. Normally this wouldn't be an issue, this would be a cause for celebration, but the timing of Tetris' Adminship and Skuld's demotion may leave many with the impression that one was the cause for the other. I know you have stated that this was not the case, and I believe you, but I believe that the events should have been separated by a span of at least a few days. Probably with any new Admins being made first before any were removed from that position because of their actions. This might help to do away with the notion that one person was removed to make room for another.

That's it really, do with it what you will, put the money in your pocket and use it later, or toss the pennies on the sidewalk, its up to you. --Rainith 22:32, 1 February 2007 (CST)

Recent Events, and how they relate to contributors
If I understand the situation right, in the last day or so you've stripped Skuld of his adminship without warning, put a (apparently final) kibosh on Gem's otherwise overwhelmingly supported RfA, and promoted TetrisL to admin instead without any process. GuildWiki is a fairly small community, and it contributes a lot to my enjoyment of Guild Wars, so I'm concerned about these things. I'm willing to bet I'm not alone in wondering... Why all of that so suddenly? And what else is in store? See my question on Gem's RfA page... might it be appropriate for you to initiate a discussion of your priorities for GuildWiki before there are more surprises for us contributors? — HarshLanguage 06:59, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * I question your questioning of Tanaric. My guess is that you have not been around very long. Two points:
 * a) The wiki is NOT a democracy. We reach decisions by consensus and discussion and rationale thought. Not by popularity contests. As such, Tanaric did not do anything scary or weird. The whole RfA process was created by Stabber on a whim, not really the way we have been doing adminship promotions to begin with.
 * b) Tanaric is actually the best thing to happen to the wiki since Mingas the Meek's page got deleted. If you've been around long enough, you know he is the one we all go to for level-headed decision and guidance. He's been around since day 1.
 * --Karlos 07:11, 1 February 2007 (CST)
 * Nope, I haven't been around that long. And I don't know any of the higher-ups from other boards or in-game. I don't know Tanaric's past actions, but I trust your opinion of them. Still, from what's in front of me, I think the question is valid. I've seen comments suggesting that Tanaric was basically away from GuildWiki, and he's explicitly described as being inactive... and I see a shakeup of admins without much explanation. (Not all of which I disagree with, BTW.) Other admins and heavily-involved contributors seem to be a little weirded out. So, as just a regular Joe Contributor, I'm wondering if this is a change in how the wiki is going to run, and what happens next? — HarshLanguage [[Image:qswearing_small.png|HarshLanguage]] 07:21, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * Fair enough. I'll leave it up to Tanaric to address your concerns. --Karlos 07:34, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * I'm fairly new here either and this doesn't really worry me. As far as I see events, Skuld was told his behaviour needed to improve and after a time period of 3 months it was found he hadn't improved enough. I don't see anything to be alarmed about. - BeXoR  [[Image:Bexor.png]] 07:36, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * It might surprise someone but I support Tanarics recent actions. And I mean all of them.
 * Although he could have given a warning to Skuld first, I completely understand why he demoted him and I don't think it's a personal issue but an action ment to protect the wiki.
 * Promoting Tetris wasn't a bad idea and Tetris would have been nominated for the RfA a long time ago if the RfA would have existed at that point.
 * I am really sorry that I, due to a simple watchlist related mistake, did not notice that he had acted just like I would have liked him to realated to myself. I understand why he did not promote me even with the high support and he is allowed to do so.
 * --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 07:42, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * I'm sure you can appreciate that, as one of the few bureaucrats on this wiki, I am in a sensitive position, but I want to quote something Karlos said, simply to draw attention to it.


 * "We reach decisions by consensus and discussion and rationale thought."


 *  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 08:24, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * It is true that discussion and democracy are the basis for the every day success of the wiki, but certain things might need someone like Tanaric, who has a high status given by Gravewit and only acts after thinking things throughly, to act without weeklong discussions and arguing. For example the case of Skuld. If it would have been discussed first we would have probably seen dozens of flaming comments instead of the non-hostile discussion at the moment. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 09:19, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * I saw this happen last night, and decided to sleep on it before commenting. I see that many others have voiced their opinions now, covering much of what I was thinking.  But, I'll cover my 2-cents on this here.
 * You've addressed your reasons at User talk:Skuld; and while I agree with Karlos that there has been improvement in Skulds behavior, I understand why you believe the change needed to be made.
 * However, I disagree with the method in which it was implemented. I realise that we have no documented procedure or precedent for de-sysoption other than the phrase "the system administrators listed below may remove any administrator for any reason".  Still, I would have preferred that either a firm warning be given first; or the de-sysoption be the result of a requests for arbitration.  At the very least, to avoid the drama being introduced to the talk pages, the majority of the reasons could have been communicated off-line.  If it becomes necessary to remove me at any point (I was, after-all, partially involved in the discussion you referenced as a reason to oppose Gem's RfA), I would hope that you or others with bureaucrat status at least gave me the courtesy of notifying me of the reasons off-line, and if/when posted in the notice in my talk page just referenced that it was per an off-line discussion or something of that sort.
 * Aside from all of that - I did see a comment by Tetris L where he was surprised that the admins didn't have a seperate forum for discussions. I would like to hear your opinion on it.  I need to think about it more myself; but my initial reaction is to be against it.  While I like the idea of a place for admins to work out disagreements amongst themselves - as those types of debates can degrade other users respect for all admins.  At the same time, such a forum can potentially be abused by eliminating transparency to admin discussions on other issues or worse, it could be a potential path of abuse for admins to strategize on handling of difficult issues/users or to be accused of such even when its not true.  But then, I was on my city's planning commission for a while; so I may be overly sensitive towards avoiding the perception of holding closed quorums, so I would want to hear other opinions on the idea. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 12:47, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * Barek, regarding the method in which Skuld was removed, I actually agree with you. I believe that, for a wiki the size of ours to be sustainable, actions like these must resolve themselves via a democratic process. Unfortunately, because Gravewit is unwilling to relinquish absolute power on the wiki, such a democracy cannot ever exist. I exercise my authority, which is nearly as absolute, because I know that at any moment it can be revoked from me, and I'm unwilling to waste that time on the false pretense of democracy.


 * For the record, Skuld's removal was discussed among much of the administrative team in various ways. I did not remove him blindly, and, as I mentioned, have been considering doing this for some time. I think saying he was removed without warning is a bit unfair, really, since both Karlos and I admonished him publicly on his talk page in the past for some of his actions. In short, I don't think Xasxas and others should have any fear for their positions. That certainly wasn't my intent. I can say with all honesty that there isn't a single administrator I've ever considered removing besides Skuld.


 * I think that any private forum is a tricky proposition. On the one hand, it makes certain housekeeping tasks easier, but on the other, it has great potential for abuse. That said, considering how much I communicate with the admin team via instant message, adding an official private forum might not increase the risk for abuse. I also think that considering abuse risk is slightly silly when we've invested ourselves with limitless authority from the beginning. Maybe we can discuss the abuse risk privately in the admin forum. :)


 * &mdash;Tanaric 14:30, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * IMO any ruling body such as a government should have some kind of transparency. Lack of transparency seems to quickly lead to distrust, and animosity to those with power... but then again that's just my opinion --Lania Elderfire 14:04, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * I completely agree, but as I mentioned to Barek above, any transparency I officially enact would be in name only, since the mysterious boss of this place is anything but transparent. I think that I've been as forthcoming, honest, and communicative as I can be, and I don't think I've ever shied away from explaining, discussing, and defending my actions on the GuildWiki. I'm happy to continue doing this as long as people are interested.


 * Finally, in reply to HarshLanguage:


 * These recent actions represent no change at all in the way the wiki is run. I acted according to the written policy on Administrators, and will of course continue to do so.


 * ...okay, that response was pretty dodgy. In truth, I hate doing this sort of thing, but I think it was necessary in this specific instance. I'm not on a "sysop crusade," I'm not trying to do any major restructuring, and I've not got anything else major planned for the GuildWiki anytime soon. That said, if you'd like to talk about intangibles, my dreams for this place, and such, you're welcome to get in touch with me privately. My contact info is on my userpage.


 * By the way, have you ever considered becoming a sysop?


 * &mdash;Tanaric 14:30, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * I hope the last one was a joke. ;P I don't think that someone so new could posible act in the admin position very well.
 * Regarding the admin forum or a similiar way of private communication between the admins, I don't oppose. If I were an admin, I would feel a bit weird being able to exclude all of the wiki users from some possibly important discussions. The fact that private discussions are possible anyway is what makes me allow a private forum as this would atleast make stuff discussed public to all admins and not only one or two. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 15:05, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * I'm glad you can tell when I'm joking. Though, admittedly, I'm only half-joking. I have always tried to appoint admins that critically examine our current policies and constantly strive for what's best for everybody. I don't want an admin team that defends itself because they all have the same mentality. The more constructive conflict within the group, the better. Give HarshLanguage a few more months to get better situated, and he'll likely make the perfect candidate. &mdash;Tanaric 15:08, 1 February 2007 (CST)
 * With all those discution about admin, I want to be one now, looks like fun ;)&mdash; ├ A ratak ┤  15:12, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * It's often fun. This kind of stuff isn't, but I guess that's why I get to do it. :) &mdash;Tanaric 15:14, 1 February 2007 (CST)
 * I see what Aratak means, all this admin diplomacy has had me captivated :p. I'd like to sum up my feelings on the whole matter. I've looked at all your various comments on this issue and agree almost completely with them. With regards to Skuld's demotion, it seems you gave him some form of warning and his small improvement has not been enough for him to remain a sysop. When I first started contributing on the wiki, I did not approve of most of Skuld's methods and was surprised to find that he was an admin. After a while, I started to realise that although a lot of his actions were rash and he voted unfavoured on builds without testing or even giving a reason for his vote, most of his votes were the right ones generally. Therefore, I began to respect Skuld, and seeing an admin voting in such a way caused me to think it was ok to do the same. It's a good an example of how an admin can influence other contributors. The sort of mentality Skuld showed towards voting on builds may be a big reason for the sorry state of the builds section at the moment. Because of this, I have realised that a lot of my votes and been unfair and have decided to test the build before I actually vote on it, even if the concept looks ridiculous at first glance, or the builds just looks bad etc. Everyone is valued equally according to GW:YOU and builds should be too, at least until they have been throught he testing stage. With regards to Gem's adminship I think you made the right decision in the end, I totally agree that many contributors, including Gem, may be losing touch with what people want and are becoming too focused on style and formatting of the wiki rather than the information, heck, I was becoming wrapped up in all that myself. But after reading all your comments, I realise that that's what the wiki is all about really; the information. Despite this, Gem's overall contribution to the wiki cannot be ignored. He is an excellent choice for admin. Don't have much to say about Tetris L's promotion, except that it's a good idea, he's good contributor, level-headed and appreciates wiki policies. I'd like to thank you for making me want to become a better contributor to the wiki as a whole. Hyperion`  [[image:Hyperion_sig.png]] (talk) 19:50, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * A bit offtopic, but I'm really surprised that people think that I care more of nice layout than user friendlyness. It seems that I really need to scroll through my contributions and strive for better. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 20:01, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * I don't think you generally don't care about user friendlyness due to your frequent helping of users with editing etc. (including myself), but I do think you were out of line on that particular conversation with Lodurr, and it was unlike you, but I still strongly favour your adminship, because, as you have frequently said it is wrong to judge someone on one conversation and your overall work on Gwiki speaks for itself. Hyperion`  [[image:Hyperion_sig.png]] (talk) 20:13, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * Ah, you were also only refering to that one conversation. I'm sorry, I thought that you thought that I generally act like that. :) Well, I'm still striving for better and if I have the time, I'll go through my contributions and try to learn from them. Others could probably learn something too by going through their own contributions. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 20:24, 1 February 2007 (CST)

As you might have noticed, I have not been my usual, vocal self over the past 24 hours. I don't doubt that some of you are relieved :P but here is my stance on the recent events.

I am good friends with Tanaric, and with most of the people involved, but I like to think that I'm objective in my analysis of the situation.

I think that Skuld is an excellent contributor, and I get on with him well, but I do tend to agree that Skuld was promoted prematurely. This does not mean that I would have demoted him, but I respect Tanaric's decision, and I can't fault his logic.

I personally think that both Tetris and Gem will make excellent administrators, but promoting Tetris at the expense of Gem was something that did not sit well with me. It can be argued that the RfA is just an indicator of the opinion of the community, but I would say that this undermines the importance of the community at large.

Of course, the issue of Gems adminship is now, gladly, a moot point.

But what is not a moot point is the way in which action was carried out by Tanaric. Regardless of whether his decisions were justified or not, he carried out his actions with no regard to the sentiments of the community to which he is (or rather, he should be) accountable.

There is very little transparency or accountability in the wiki, and there never will be until people demand it.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 20:28, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * I see what you mean. While I do agree with what Tanaric has said and done mostly, he has done it without regards to the community like you say, but his original reason for opposing Gem's RfA was because he did not put the interest of the entire community first. Tanaric has also said that the wiki is not a democracy and never will be, therefore he has contradicted himself in this respect. Hyperion`  [[image:Hyperion_sig.png]] (talk) 20:35, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * I respect your orignial decision to stay out of the trouble for the time being and I am glad that you decided to voice your opinnion now that things have calmed down. (or heated up for some users ;) )
 * Most users seem to agree with the actions of Tanaric, but not with the way he did them. I think that the wiki sometimes needs a strong hand to make some changes without listening to the community too much, (Yeah, dictatorship is generally considered bad, but it can work with the right people taking the lead) but even if decision on future actions are made by one or two people, those decisions should be published before acting, just to make sure that the actions don't cause people to lose faith in the leadership. If people know what is going to happen they will less likely start a war and they might even have some constructive critisism which should be taken into account. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 20:46, 1 February 2007 (CST)
 * /agree. Rock on GW test weekends. Hyperion`  [[image:Hyperion_sig.png]] (talk) 21:04, 1 February 2007 (CST)

I've posted this on my talk page, but I'll post it here, too.
 * I don't really care anymore, without skuld this will become largely meaningless. You know what happened to my old clan?  I joined, I soon become to regard everyone as friends.  An old veteran left the guild.  The leader had IP problems.  Next, it split in two as one faction of admins split the entire clan.  All I had ever known of it disappeared, never to reappear.  Here lies the first step for guildwiki &mdash; Skuld, the veteran, has left.  I wonder which admin will spearhead the split of rulings. &mdash;[[Image:BlastedtSigleft.jpg]]Blastedt[[Image:BlastedtSigright.jpg]]&mdash; 20:36, 1 February 2007 (CST)
 * The wiki wont dissolve because one user is taking a wiki break. For example Stabber was one of the major contributors and one of the few with a lot of knowledge to run a bot and so on, but when she keft, the wiki didn't take such a serious injury as some people thought it would. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 20:46, 1 February 2007 (CST)
 * It's by far not the first drama on wiki (Stabber come to mind) and it will survive this one too. We lost many, (where is Pan Sola :(, Honorable Sarah use to be seen on all the talk page) but we always gain new one.  I hope for the best.&mdash; ├ A ratak ┤  20:52, 1 February 2007 (CST)
 * Not to mention administrators who weren't even around back when I joined. And Gravewit -- he, like, owns everything, and it's not like we ever hear from him. All this stuff is pretty irrelevant. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 21:55, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * Blastedt has an interesting point, I think. People are clamoring for more democracy. I support such a movement, but recognize that such a thing is impossible on the GuildWiki because Gravewit will not be governed in such a manner. Curiously enough, the only way for the users to actually control this place would be to split off into a new wiki site/network, and presumably some (many?) admins would support or spearhead such a thing. Thus, if we interpret Blastedt's comment strictly, my actions and the fallout from those actions very feasibly could, if enough people considered them unjust, result in a split that ends up destroying the GuildWiki itself. &mdash;Tanaric 02:51, 2 February 2007 (CST)


 * I think certain users are turning this into a far larger drama than it really is. I would suggest they try to look at this in an objective manner, rather than thinking about this in terms of Skuld. People are very emotionally involved with him as a person. - BeXoR  [[Image:Bexor.png]] 03:04, 2 February 2007 (CST)


 * If you'll allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment, I think the users who truly look at this objectively should be the ones that get the most pissed off. After all, I've exercised an authority that nobody else had ever exercised, and I did it without warning or apparently even sufficient justification. Worst of all, there's no recourse for anybody similarly effected by my (ab)use of my authority. Looking at it objectively, without reference to Skuld, it seems to me that the best conclusion one can draw is that the GuildWiki is just another website on that vast entity we call the Internet, and, just like most websites, is run by a power-hungry, corrupt dictator who will do as he pleases without regards to the community and will, eventually, cause the whole mess to come crumbling down. &mdash;Tanaric 03:11, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * I disagree, and the disagreement I believe can be found in this statement: "I think the users who truly look at this objectively should be the ones that get the most pissed off". The users who are trying to look at this objectively (and they seem to be many, I'm glad to note), seem to also be objectively dealing with "how" it was done. It's not about getting pissed off, it's about understanding what happened, and as HarshLanguage questioned above, what this means for the Wiki. The Gravewit explanation seems convincing to me; when you say that Gravewit won't let this wiki be governed in a democratic manner, I see where you are coming from (several examples from the past spring to mind, with lack of transparency on many issues being one of the main problems). Now, it seems fair to say that this wiki is not a democratic system. It may be a benign dictatorship, but then it may not. Which means that it is up to each one of us to decide and accept whether they want to be part of this entire project or not. Myself, I'm fine with it. Wikipedia isn't a democracy either, Jimbo Wales with a handful of people chosen directly by him (a.k.a. the Arbitration Committee)  represent the highest hierarchical level there. If they want to ban you, they'll ban you. If they want to make you one of them without saying a word to anyone else, they can do that as well. True, they don't do things like that because it's simply not in their interest to do so, but the possibility is always there. And yet, look at Wikipedia today. It is very likely the most actively visited and edited site on the Web, with people still sharing their contributions with little worry. It is a benign dictatorship. Is GuildWiki the same? Not sure, since on many issues Gravewit has proven to be far less open and communicative than Wales. Nonetheless, I think this is still a safe place to contribute to. Why? Because there are two other de-facto "rulers" who are still here. Something I feel I should mention; I strongly considered posting a Thank You note both on your talk page and that of LordBiro yesterday, after the actions in regard to Gem, Tetris, Skuld, and your message to Lodurr on his talk page. Not because of the actions that were taken, since if it'd been up to me I would have made Gem an admin in an eyeblink, and wouldn't have demoted Skuld ... BUT ... I wanted to thank you for acting, for intervening to do you thought was right. I'd rather have a ruler I disagree with, than a ruler that I can't either see or hear. Those disagreements can be discussed, and if they can't be solved I can always leave the wiki and that'll be it. If enough disagree, the project can be forked, split somewhere else with either the same kind of leadership or some other variant. But the passivity and silence and indifference towards this wiki (such as what Gravewit is exhibiting) are much more dangerous and much more likely to allow this place to crumble. A body without a head is dead, even if every other part is working perfectly. And that's why I'm glad to see that the two of you are still here and willing to act when you see it fit to do so. --Dirigible 04:09, 2 February 2007 (CST)


 * The talk about a split is way too emotional and a little scary. Blastedt, do you really think this particular drama is worth breaking up a community for? I hope nobody thinks that one supposed abuse of power (despite not having any specific definitions about what is abuse of power) is worth leaving this wiki. I'm thinking it's better to move on and plug up holes. Like deciding whether the (apparently unofficial) Rfa system should remain, policy for de-sysop, and uh, letting me know what being a "Bureaucrat" means? :P But seriously, I understand the whole pretense of democracy Tanaric mentioned, and largely don't support a democracy style for a global community (different timelines/cultures/background etc.). But a benign dictator (quoting Dirigible), who points to nicely laid out policies is much better than a dictator. -- Ab.Er.Rant (msg Aberrant80) 04:28, 2 February 2007 (CST)


 * This is amazing. I ought to quit the wiki over this fiasco. I spent the last year or so screaming my heart out that Gravewit is an inept and unqualified leader. I struggled to show people the mistakes he is doing, the many ways in which he is harming the wiki and no one did anything. No one ever followed up with him about what ANet wanted to do with us, no one ever followed up with him on our financial transparency...
 * And after all that... People wanna rage quit because Tanaric made decisions they disagree with??! No offense, Blatedt, but you're not the first one to make that melodramatic stand and you will not be the last. However, when this wiki splits/falls apart, it will not be because one admin got his adminship removed (after a number of complaints) but because the poor management skills of Gravewit will finally catch up to the wiki and bring it down.
 * Skuld was warned, Skuld knew he acted like a jerk in certain instances and Skuld's removal was discussed between admins a number of time, especially the older ones. No one is questioning skuld' contributions or his worth to the wiki, both are extremely valuable. All that was in question was whether he was fit to lead by example as an admin, which I think the consensus of the more senior admins was that he was not.
 * In all due honesty, what did you guys want more than that? He was observed, given some warnings and then relieved of his duties. The only thing I would have done differently would be to have spoken to him in-game or on e-mail before announcing it. Just out of courtesy to the guy. The issue of Gem is Tanaric's opinion, no one can fault him for it and Tetris has been nominated a bazillion times and he was the only obstacle in his own promotion.
 * Let's not rewrite the history of the wiki, nor lose sight of the real issues we face. We have a crop of newer contributors who think this wiki is about the blasted Builds section (and take Skuld as their idol I guess for championing the PvP elitism crew), but we are NOT about that. I will miss Skuld, but not the guy who was making belittling remarks on build talk pages, but the little worker bee who was helping out here and there. --Karlos 05:57, 2 February 2007 (CST)

Admin fun! Well first of all, guildwiki just aint gonna fall apart, that's out of discussion. The comparison between guilds and wiki is just totally whack. Guilds fall apart for one reason, and that's gvg. Either not enough of it, poor gvg etc. that's all. In a guild with less than say 20 ACTIVE members the guild just flops after a certain amount of time. Skuld and Auron and eventually rapta left the guildwiki testing guild because 25 members wasn't enough to gvg and so a horde of people left, and now recruiting is impossible with a "so and so left so and so left.. etc" in the record, so I'm dismantling GuildWikis champions soon. If the core of a guild is gvg, what's the core of guildwiki? Documenting GW and providing guides for it. This will always be possible for anyone here, regardless if we have 25 or 1000000 members. It's not like the few admins themselves do even more than 1 or 2% of the edits, so they've really no power to sway everyone to leaving.

As for skuld being demoted... sorry all I agree, but for different reasons. Skuld shouldn't be admin for the same reasons, e.g., I shouldn't be an admin. We do too many questionable acts. Now, whether or not these are the really wrong acts is rly not the problem, it's that a portion of the editors sees an admin acting questionably and then they start acting questionably, and more than likely in a not good way, and say "Well I'm just doing what bla bla admin did". E.g. If you look at skuld's banned list over 50% of the reasons he gives are like the following: "User lacks penis, you're a dick, BOOOOOOO!" which is exactly what I would say given what some of the vandals have done :D But it's just not what an admin of a site with tens of thousands of viewers and editors should say. The there's also when he deleted over 50 builds outright of the builds section on the basis that they sucked beyond all reason (and I mean only the really really bad ones) which some might consider a massive act of policy violation. Do I like that he did that? You bet. Do I think it shows the kind of example an admin should lead? No.

It's not like Skuld's being stripped of editting power, nobody can deny he's an excellent wiki editor. He just won't be able to ban people or say "I'm cool I can ban people" which really isn't that much loss is it? (Not a fifty five 10:21, 2 February 2007 (CST))

Gem's adminship...
Can you explain that one to me? --Karlos 08:13, 2 February 2007 (CST)


 * I was equally surprised, but soon realised what probably was the reason (Ofcourse I might be mistaken). He had just received a lot of critique from the actions done earlier and a huge drama had begun. Then we discussed my matter on my talk page and when he came to the conclusion that he had treated me unjustly he decided to sysop me to avoid more critique and drama. As I stated on my talk page, I would like people to let me know if they don't think that I deserve the position. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 09:10, 2 February 2007 (CST)


 * Uh, no, not quite. Critique and drama are not something I shy away from.


 * I'm not sure I treated you unjustly, but I'm sure that there's a chance of that. Really, I want to see what you're made of, and I wanted to give you a chance to prove yourself, since so many others here seem to think you're capable. I'll be watching you pretty closely (like I do all new sysops) and, should I think that I've made a mistake in appointing you, I'll remove you from the position.


 * One thing I've learned from this, though, is that we'll be in touch privately before anything like that happens, so don't sweat it.


 * &mdash;Tanaric 11:05, 2 February 2007 (CST)


 * Thank you. :) --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 11:59, 2 February 2007 (CST)

Lesson Learned
Next time something like last week is necessary, I'll discuss the issue with the admin in question privately first. Excluding that, I think I'm pretty much okay with how this worked out. Are there any other suggestions or comments about the protocol itself? &mdash;Tanaric 03:42, 5 February 2007 (CST)

Oh, and to answer the inevitable response -- no, I'm not going to re-admin Skuld just because I think I made a mistake in handling the situation. However, I will objectively look at his contributions if he or anybody else puts him forward for adminship in the future. &mdash;Tanaric 03:47, 5 February 2007 (CST)

Private admin forum
Just another comment regarding the "private admin forum" that I suggested. In all honesty, this is not something that I want only because I'm an admin myself now. I've always assumed that the admins already have something like it, and I didn't mind, because I think it is absolutely necessary for the admin team to discuss some matters privately. Such private discussion is not ment to establish an elitist leader group beyond community surveillance or influence. I see that GuildWiki is actually not a democracy, but I'd still prefer it to be, in an ideal world. :) But even in a democracy the government must be allowed to discuss some delicate matters internally before the public gets involved or at least informed. And it's already happening now, via email, instant messaging and in-game whispers, so a forum really isn't such a great change. It's merely a way to make communication it a little easier, and better coordinated. You could also use a mailing list for that, or an IRC channel, but a forum on http://forums.gamewikis.org/ seems like the easiest and most convenient way to me. -- 04:36, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * I asked Fyren about it, and he seemed hesitant. In the meantime, we have email and IMs. Please get in touch with me if you have anything you wish to discuss. &mdash;Tanaric 04:57, 5 February 2007 (CST)
 * Okay, I'll send you an email asking for a forum then. :p j/k ;) --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 05:01, 5 February 2007 (CST)
 * What I told Tanaric was that I'd prefer to keep discussion on the wiki. While obviously I do talk to him (and others) off-wiki, I try to keep most things public.  If most of the admins want a board, I'll set one up.  --Fyren 05:20, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * Well, I suppose this topic can serve as a consensus-seeking edit. I hope I don't sound pompous, but I think most of the sysops watch this page. &mdash;Tanaric 05:49, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * Fyren: "I try to keep most things public." <- I reckon many of the things that really matter are already discussed privately now, via email and IM. That's my point. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 05:55, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * Most of the time what I discuss is which users are annoying me the most. --Fyren 05:59, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * Yeah, that one was precious given how active he is in discussions. :P I am not really in favor of having private admin forums. In principle, we are coherent enough that there is little need for "building consensus" on most issues. We listen to each other's arguments well and we try to accomodate each other's viewpoints. If a topic is meant to be discussed away from the public talk pages (for whatever reasons), then we can always PM each other in-game, or e-mail Tanaric. There is currently no known way of communicating with Fyren other than going up Mt.Abaddon's Mouth and standing by the burned up Iboga Plant. :P --Karlos 06:10, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * Although I wouldn't feel comfortable with a private forum and I still can't think of anything really important that would need it, I guess there might be need for one in the future. We could have a private forum just in case as long as it doesn't get used too much. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 07:18, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * I wouldn't mind having a private forum. There have been times where I wished for one. For example, vandals (I'm talking about the real ones here, not the kids who stumble across the edit button) don't have to be able to read the means we're discussing on how to get rid of them. I certainly hope we wouldn't have to use this forum often, though. :) On the other hand, we came this far without an admin forum... --84-175 (talk) 07:40, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * I read up about it a bit, and I changed my mind. Not about the fact that admins should have a private room for discussion, but how to do it, technically. A forum is convenient, but it's bad that it's separate from the wiki, making links quite difficult. Instead, we should install a MediaWiki extension (for example this one, this one or this one) to enable read access restriction to certain pages. This way we could keep the private discussion right here on the wiki. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 08:15, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * Seems like a great solution. Makes linking easy and allows us to make discussions public later on if needed. Also allows the use of the watch list and doesn't require a separate bookmark. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 08:28, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * MW is made with the opposite of restrictions in mind. The first two don't even come close to working properly and can trivially be circumvented.  Maybe the third works, but I doubt it (and at the author even notes what I said about MW's design).  --Fyren 08:35, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * MW was designed specifically for public discussion, and proper access restriction is clearly one of its weak spots. It doesn't fit with the open source spirit. That's why it's rarely used for corporate wikis, and most companies prefer TWiki or other wikis. :( I know somebody with some MediaWiki knowledge can "hack" into the restricted pages, but that's probably also the case with a restricted forum. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 08:47, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * I'm not for or against this idea. I think everything should be available to the public, yet in my line of work I know keeping secrets also help to keep things running smoothly and keeps the controversy and rumors to a minimum. The main thing I want to see, if this occurs, is that all admins are on the same page regarding certain issues. I can't think of many reasons off the top of my head, except discussing really bad apples (examples can be provided, but I'd rather not dig up the past) and any information that would affect the wiki as a whole, for example some recent activity here and the fact that admins have to discuss these types of things usually one-on-one, instead of as a group. I know a latest discussion off-wiki possibly went to the admin I was talking to, then he made me aware, then I in turn made another admin aware. That's like the game where one person whispers a word, say copyright, into another person's ear and he into another's ear and after enough times, copyright turns into carny ride. :p &mdash; Gares 08:51, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * The problem with off-wiki discussions atm is exclusion of some (especially new) members of the admin team. I for example haven't been talking to other admins off the wiki much and contacting me off wiki can be difficult sometimes. If some things relly need to be discussed out of the publicity, a MW extension or a forum would probably be the best way. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 09:01, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * MW's purpose is not the relevant part. It was designed so that everything was public.  There is no information you can get through as a sysop aside from deleted revision text and the list of unwatched pages that you can't get as a normal user.  The first two extensions don't take a MW hacker to break, they take any user familiar with a wiki.  You don't need to know any PHP let alone ever have seen the extension or MW code, you just need to try the various ways to get to an article's data (page inclusion, histories/diffs, action=raw, Special:Export).  The code for the third is longer than I care to look through (it does make a much better effort than the others), but as the author says, it probably still has holes.  I've hung around in #mediawiki enough to know there is no public extension that exists that gets access restrictions right.  --Fyren 09:07, 5 February 2007 (CST)
 * I put "hack" in quotation marks for a reason. I know that if I (aka The Tech Dummie) can do it, it doesn't require l33t h4x0r skillz. ;) --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 09:15, 5 February 2007 (CST)
 * I have you on my friends list Gem. I'll send you a pm next time you're on so you can say you've had an admin discussion. :D &mdash; Gares 09:56, 5 February 2007 (CST)
 * I want one of these exclusive admin PMs too! --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 10:05, 5 February 2007 (CST)
 * Hey, didn't I PM you a couple of times already? :p But seriously, I think the number of "admin discussions" I had off-wiki so far can be counted at one hand. --84-175 (talk) 10:33, 5 February 2007 (CST)
 * Thank you for the thought Gares. :) I've sometimes talked with Xas in game (before and after his adminship) and a few times with LordBiro in irc, but rarely anything wiki realted. It's nice to get to know the people behind the nick names better. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 10:57, 5 February 2007 (CST)
 * Eightyfour: Hey, those PMs don't count; I wasn't an admin at that time! ;)
 * That even most admins weren't involved in the "off-wiki admin discussion" kinda proves my point. The things that really matter for the future of this wiki are discussed and decided in emails and PMs among the four bureaucrats (I had to copy and paste that word; I'll never learn how to spell it ;)). There is no control for these discussions whatsoever, not even from the "lesser" sysops. Transparency and democracy is merely an illusion here. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 11:00, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * I am not a bureaucrat (and I know how to spell bureaucrat) and I have been into some discussions with the others about issues. First and foremost. Tanaric's e-mail is on his user page. You can ask him anything you like any time and you can get involved with issues instead of waiting to be polled on something. Just e-mail him and suggest to him, for example, a solution to the mess that is the builds section before he blows it up. If you see a problmeatic trend, PM him (or me, or whoever) and have a talk about it. It's just useful overall, and helps you (any admin, not just Tetris) develop an understanding of where the other admins are coming from. I consider myself an equal to all the other admins. I neither consider Tanaric more "adminish" than myself, nor do I think Gem is less adminish. In time, I thnk you (any admin) will develop a taste for what you could just leave as a note on someone's talk page, and what you can ring them up in-game and ask them about. --Karlos 16:57, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * I'm not sure who you are talking to, but in case you were talking to me, I didn't mean that I feel that I can't communicate with the others and I certainly don't fell like less of an admin than the others even if I'm new. It's just that people are saying that we need an admin only area, but I have never seen anything which would require it, so I'm thinking that there is something mysterious going on on the back stage which I might want to know about. I will ofcourse contact someone if I need assistance or want to talk about something, but I know that PMs and e-mail will cause some users to not hear from the stuff even if they might need to, where a forum/MW extension would allow all admins to easily notice any discussions. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 17:24, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * No, Gem. I was not talking to you, sadly. I was addressing Tetris' concerns. Feel free to make use of the advice, however. --Karlos 01:40, 6 February 2007 (CST)


 * I posted my thoughts on an admin forum in the earlier thread above; so have been quiet so far on this thread. While I can see the potential value, I can also see potential problems.  So, I'll remain neutral on this, and support whatever is decided.  There have been a handful of issues that I would've liked to have been involved or kept informed about via off-wiki talks.  But thus far, my off-wiki talks could likely be counted on the fingers of one hand - and most of those have just been quick Q/A messages. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 11:19, 5 February 2007 (CST)
 * Personally, I wouldn't mind a Forum of some sort. I do have most of the Admins on my friends list in game (I need to make sure to put some of you newer ones on it) so I can see when they're on and contact them if need be, but something where the history of the conversation doesn't disappear after you shut down the game client might be nice.  --Rainith 12:10, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * To go back further, Tetris keeps mentioning "the really important things" which must get discussed off-wiki, but I'd have to say there are no such discussions. While I clearly can't ask which discussions he means, what decisions do people think were made as a result of off-wiki discussions?  --Fyren 23:13, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * As a regular contributor of GWiki, I've said this before on other talk pages but I think for a good community to work well, transparency is needed, especially when secrecy isn't nessasary in most cases. Major discussions should be carried out in the open rather than behind closed doors, as this might create a kind of a "disconnect" between the admins and regular users.  This kind of "rift" seems to already exist between the bureaucrats and admin/regular users because of the lack of transpanrecy in the past.  Because of those reasons I think a private forum is a bad idea but a public Gwiki forum on the Gwiki network would be nice for major discussions.  Maybe even make it restricted to viewing for registered members only rather than anon's. --Lania Elderfire 23:57, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * Lania, and everyone else. This is a red herring. People are talking about this as if there is all this debate going on behind their back and all these really important decisions that no one knows about that are being made. There are no such decisions and Fyren is absolutely correct in pointing this out.
 * We have always been very transparent. The issues that I have talked to other admins about in the recent past arE:
 * Gravewit being Gravewit: Something I posted in public and in everyone's view LONG before anyone was willing to believe me.
 * The Builds section: I comiserate with those admins who, like me, abhor that section. We try to think of ways to fix it... and fail.
 * They bring to my attention any serious discussions they think I should pay attention to as I have not been paying as close an eye on changes here the past few months since Nightfall came out.
 * The Skuld issue: A few admins pointed me to the Starburst warrior build fiasco and I intervened and we talked to Skuld about it in public before everyone's eyes. The decision to relieve Skuld was as abrupt to me as it was to everyone else. I was as unaware of it as most of the others, LordBiro seems to have been as out of the loop as I was on those decisions, so overall... There were no decisions made behind everyone else's back. Tanaric just acted out of his own will.
 * I seriously question anyone's claim that any policy decisions are made behind anyone's back. Now, I think we need to exert more effort fixing the builds section than we are trying to implement what is, in my opinion, a useless construct, meant to make people feel more empowered, but not really provide any more power. --Karlos 01:40, 6 February 2007 (CST)
 * I think you have been very good at keeping lines of communication open very well, and all the other admins are great in that respect as well. I think what I was trying to say, which I failed to make clear, was that a private forum might cause the problems i've mentioned rather than that the problems already exist...
 * As far as fixing the builds section... there are just too much ego, pride, insults, and way too much inexperience flying around. I don't mean to insult anyone, but people who seem to have the least experience tend to be very flame happy when anyone says anything bad about their build.  But the same goes for experienced people... some long time players and experienced PvP'ers are a little "insult happy" whenever someone makes a baseless argument, or say something that is just wrong.  It's sad that the section is in this state now, but I think the only way to really "fix" it is to just separate it from GWiki, or nuke it as it brings out the worst out of people. I doubt Skuld would have gotten into trouble if a builds section didn't exist in the first place. --Lania Elderfire 02:13, 6 February 2007 (CST)


 * The Builds section will only be nuked if it causes trouble for the rest of the wiki. I was awfully close to doing it last November, but the simple suggestion of moving it into its own namespace seems to be working, in as much as it's now very easy to ignore. &mdash;Tanaric 06:59, 6 February 2007 (CST)


 * Oh, and as Karlos said, there really isn't a great deal of plotting done behind the scenes. I kick around ideas for the future among those editors I'm closest to – all of which happen to be administrators. We discuss ideas for fixing builds. We vent about users that we wish didn't exist. We discuss those users who we feel might make good sysops. My demoting of Skuld was done with nobody's permission – indeed, both Fyren and Biro cautioned me against doing it. That said, I still wanted to discuss it with them, because I value their input both as sysops and as people. Any issues with recent events should be directed at me specifically, and not the sysop team as a whole, because these acts fall quite cleanly within the realm of my being bold. &mdash;Tanaric 07:34, 6 February 2007 (CST)


 * Edit conflict :P


 * For the record, I wasn't out of the loop with regard to the demotion of Skuld. If I had been out of the loop I would have been pretty angry about not being consulted.


 * As it was, Tanaric discussed his intentions with me, and I disagreed with him, however on the Skuld issue I could see his point. We spent more time debating the promotion of Tetris over Gem; as you are no doubt aware, I was in favour of Gem's promotion, no offense Tetris ;)


 * Really this is the only kind of situation that I would discuss off the wiki, and I think that if an admin's forum existed I would not want to discuss it there either; this discussion was a bureaucrat's discussion.


 * Overall, I'm not in favour of a private forum. That isn't to say I entirely oppose it: I would certainly use such a forum if one existed, as to do otherwise would be to put myself at a disadvantage. But I do think that we are already able to communicate in private when it is necessary, and I fear that once we have a private forum we will feel more inclined to have discussions that we would normally have on the wiki in the forum, and that's a negative step as far as transparency goes.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 07:07, 6 February 2007 (CST)


 * I still think the discussion of transparency is entirely moot while Gravewit pulls the strings and handles the money. I regret defending him back when Karlos made his initial complaints oh-so-long ago. If people seriously want to discuss a transparent structure, you need to first consider the costs of removing the server administrator, as I think it's pretty clear there's no other way to get your desired result. &mdash;Tanaric 07:34, 6 February 2007 (CST)


 * I can't disagree there. If you don't have transparency at every level then you don't have transparency (I guess the best you can get is translucency?) and I doubt very much Gravewit will ever agree to make the financial side of the wiki public.


 * I, too, have defended Gravewit in the past, although he's not done a great deal to earn any of our defence.


 * Still, if it were up to me I would proceed with caution when it comes to setting up a private forum.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 07:41, 6 February 2007 (CST)


 * What I have in mind when I talk about "the things that really matter" is indeed things like the crisis before the server upgrade after the release of Nightfall, or the secret discussion around the possible cooperation of GuildWiki with ArenaNet. I assumed that at least the other bureaucrats (or whatever they are spelt) were involved, but maybe I was mistaken and it's all handeled by Gravewit alone. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 08:07, 6 February 2007 (CST)


 * When Gravewit and Tanaric spoke with ANet before, the gist was posted on the wiki afterwards. About the server, I posted exactly what I knew about what was wrong (and then immediately got second guessed by random people, heh) and when the host said we'd get the new hardware.  There wasn't exactly anything else to say.  --Fyren 08:19, 6 February 2007 (CST)


 * The problem is that we have no way of knowing what machinations Gravewit handles unless he decides to tell us. For all we know, he could be signing a deal with ANet right now. More scarily, he could also be preparing to shut the server down in preparation to move to a commercial model in which we have to subscribe with a fee to use the GuildWiki. Who knows? &mdash;Tanaric 08:22, 6 February 2007 (CST)


 * In the latter case I swear I'll personally sue him for nc-sa license violation. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 08:26, 6 February 2007 (CST)