Talk:Guide to defeating doppelganger

Archived Talk Page
Toraen (Talk  / Contrib)  01:01, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

AI Changes
I just did the quest with a Ritualist spirit wrangler bar containing Union and shelter on the far right side. The first spirit the doppelganger brought up was the shelter spirit. So it appears that usage is no longer strictly left to right but based on some priority scheme. Can someone double check this for me. 69.76.32.187 03:18, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * While I cannot confirm using the same skills atm, I agree that the Doppleganger doesn't seem to be as dumb as it used to be. For example if I stick Signet of Devotion to the far right of my bar, the Doppleganger will still spam it for healing. Or if I take Backfire it will cast that early on, even if that's far right, etc etc. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:43, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I can contest to him being just as dumb when it comes to chains. As an assassin i brought Jagged Strike, Iron Palm, Falling Spider, Twisting Fangs (in reverse order), and he just spammed Iron Palm on me.


 * Recently on my necro on HM: lots of useless spells on the left, backfire and SS on the right. It used them all from left to right, with backfire as it's last spell, and somehow even forgot to cast SS XD So it seems to be rather random.--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir  17:51, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I beat up doppelchanger with skills OgNCoMrDuQYoL2FFRihRMmA I just cast fire attunement before entering area, then meteor straight at it then aoe spells and it died very quick.

Kill the Doppelganger with my Dervish yesterday, took about 30 seconds just using basically my regular skill setup (only added Dust Cloak)...

I noticed that it did cast Avatar of Lyssa right away, despite that being at the far right of my skill bar; it however did not use Eternal Aura (which is nice). Beyond that, I never once saw it activate any of the attack skills I had, it just spent the entire time recasting enchants and using normal attacks. Very easy fight and Dust Cloak ended up being pointless as I won just before it ran out. So I'd say a simple tactic for Dervish is to just put a few enchantments that don't do a whole lot (I had Vital Boon, Eternal Aura, and Heart of Fury - the burning is downright easy to outheal if you have Mystic Regeneration, though I had that at the right end of my bar, just because that's how I always set it up) and go to town. Minxy 16:35, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Well Eternal Aura is PvE-only, so it can't use it. Rather odd that it wouldn't activate attack skills though unless they had huge drawbacks. What attack skills were you using? Toraen 18:32, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The Doppelganger can use some PvE-only skills, such as Winds. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:02, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * According to the article, it only gets rituals from the PvE-only skills (and then only in Normal mode). This makes normal mode even easier due to the long cast time where you can just wail on the doppelganger since winds is quite useless. Toraen 15:50, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I suspect that the doppelganger has a 12 in all normal attributes but a 0 in the PvE-only skill attributes. The AI usually leads it to avoid using skills when it has a 0 in the skill.  That should be changed to a 12, just so people who go ursan get slaughtered by the doppelganger.  Quizzical 17:33, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * That makes a lot more sense than Anet arbitrarily not allowing the doppelganger to copy those skills, and then increasing the restrictions for Hard Mode. It's just an oversight that needs fixing. As a side note, should the mention of Sneak Attack stay in the Assassin section? It would really work for any melee character since it's permanent blind that the doppelganger can't (doesn't?) use. Toraen 18:04, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * No, it shouldn't. I've reverted it.  It seems that everyone and his neighbor's dog wants to add "PvE-only cheats work here, too" to this page.  Quizzical 21:30, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

easy warrior win
its easy to win as a warrior. take frensy, save yourselves, wild blow, final thrust, dragon slash, for great justice, balanced stance and desparation blow. dont use the first four skills at all, the doppleganger will use these and use up adrenaline or decreace his armour. wait untill you have 10 adrenal and use for great justice and then spam dragon slash


 * Save yourself has absolutely no effect. Not on you or not against him. Not even on him. taking an optional slot is just as good.--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir 11:25, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The warrior is probably the easiest for me to beat. I just take my pet, charm animal, comfort animal, frenzy, call of protection etc elite is Enraged Lunge. You will beat him in a few seconds. At least that is what I used last time, I am almost certain it will still work well. You just don't use frenzy, use your pet skills then unload with a double damage enraged every 5 seconds. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]  Tenetke Mekko    My Talk 15:28, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Tested this today in HM with an 11 10 10 split on my warrior. I was using a similar bm/hammer build. It is crazy how fast he goes down now if you have a dire pet. I used a basic sword bar because I wanted to test out pain inverter. Before I got a chance to cast it he was halfway dead. Other than pain inverter I had Enraging Charge Flail Crippling Slash Gash Pain Inverter Scavenger Strike Never Rampage Alone. Pretty typical pve w/r build, except the pain inverter. I managed to get one cast off of it before he died. My pet even at just 10 bm did huge damage. Next time I am going to use EL instead of CS and then throw in bleeding from SA. It isn't good enough to be listed as a build, but it is interesting for people wanting to ascend with their pets for whatever reason. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke 17:42, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Paragon
Quizzical, I followed the tips in the article, stating that taking paragon spear skills was beficial, because he couldn't use them because he uses an axe. I have no screens, and I do not plan on going there again, as this little joke nearly cost me my survivor. I took those spear attacks to make it an easy win, but I had to figth for my life, and it was far from easy. The only way a para can win in NM is with hard work or pve, and in HM only with pve skills. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 16:25, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The doppelganger only switches to an axe when you're in melee range. Getting to melee range is a critical part of the tip.
 * I was strongly skeptical of your claims because my notes say it works just fine in hard mode, so I tried it. In hard mode, I won, though it was close.  I tried it in easy mode and won with 466 HP leftover.  I picked skills kind of haphazardly, so one could probably come up with a better build than this, but what I used was:
 * 14 spear mastery, 11 leadership, 9 motivation (for the shield)
 * furious suntouched spear of defense, 15^50 inscription, all mods max
 * daedal shield with +30 HP, 20% chance of -5 physical damage received
 * Don't use the two skills on the far right. Focused anger is not a spear attack, but won't do the doppelganger any good, as it can't use the spear attacks.  Most likely switching to a vampiric spear would have helped in hard mode.  Quizzical 17:45, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok a misunderstanding on my side. The note doesn't say "get in to melee range". I suggest you add that, or atleast make it more clear, so every1 understands. I clearly didn't. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 17:50, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * From the note as it is and has been: "Use a lot of Spear Attacks, and stay in melee range. The Doppelganger will use its axe, and will not be able to use these attack skills."  Quizzical 18:22, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Does that work with bow attacks, too? o.O And theoretically, shouldn't every class be able to easily beat this by staying in / out of melee range? Entropy [[Image:Entropy Sig 2.jpg]] (C) 18:45, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Does that work with bow attacks, too? o.O And theoretically, shouldn't every class be able to easily beat this by staying in / out of melee range? Entropy [[Image:Entropy Sig 2.jpg]] (C) 18:45, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * In, yes. Out, no. If you're outside Melee range, you ain't using Melee, and neither will he :) --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  18:46, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, but you could build up adrenaline or something (easymode). For example, to use Riposte. Entropy [[Image:Entropy Sig 2.jpg]] (C) 18:49, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * But then so would the Dopple, and for what I know he uses Riposte with an Axe. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  18:52, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The doppelganger switches between a ranged weapon and a melee weapon depending on how close you are. Melee attacks don't do you any good if you're not in melee range, so that won't help melee classes.  There are no staff attack skills, so that won't help casters.  A ranger might be able to do about the same thing with a bow, but using pet attacks instead is much easier and more effective.  If you're going to use a secondary profession to beat doppelganger, skills such as empathy or insidious parasite are by far a superior approach.  The reason to use this paragon strategy is if you're a paragon and don't want to have to go buy skills for a secondary profession.  Quizzical 19:11, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * You're not thinking outside the box. Use a spear/wand/whatever to charge adrenaline, switch to sword, use riposte, get in melee range. Doppel attacks and takes 100 damage. Switch back to spear, charge again, rinse and repeat. Also use Deadly Riposte to speed things up. Entropy [[Image:Entropy Sig 2.jpg]] (C) 19:29, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * You'll need an IMS to get him out of his Melee set, making it more trouble than it's worth (spam Deadly Riposte and Heal Sig for an easier win) --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  19:34, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * You don't need him to get out of his melee set for that, actually. Also, healsig would be a terrible idea. Entropy [[Image:Entropy Sig 2.jpg]] (C) 19:58, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Necromancer
This was the skillset I used today and it was only mere seconds before the Doppleganger went down. I used only the last three skills the whole time and attacked using a Staff.


 * Primary / Secondary: Necromancer / None
 * Blood Magic: 12,
 * Curses: 11,
 * Using: Deldrimor Curses Staff


 * Darrell Kitchen (C) 01:49, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I've been searching for sacrifice skills that the Doppelganer would use willingly, I guess I should have looked in Blood. That is helpful to know. You could also throw in Ulcerous Lungs so he suffers an additional -4 degen... :) Entropy [[Image:Entropy Sig 2.jpg]] (C) 08:15, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Enfeeble and insidious parasite alone are enough to ensure that the doppelganger will heal you more than it damages you when it attacks, even in hard mode. You could readily leave the rest of the slots empty and be fine; adding other skills to speed things up is only a matter of not messing up the build.  Quizzical 08:52, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * It occurs to me that Reckless Haste might be a bad idea, since Insidious doesn't do anything if they're not hitting. Entropy [[Image:Entropy Sig 2.jpg]] (C) 08:59, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I think you ppl r overthinking this... ALL you need to do is spam insidious parasite and you should win - Rabus 18:33, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

15 seconds. I did it again, using the same configuration as I posted before.
 * Darrell Kitchen (C) 20:09, 9 June 2009 (UTC)


 * No one is doubting that it works. Rather, the objection is that there's way too much unnecessary detail there.  Drop everything but enfeeble and spiteful spirit insidious parasite, and the build still works just fine.  In easy mode, you could probably drop enfeeble, too.  Quizzical 20:42, 9 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I did this with just Insidious Parasite in both NM and HM. NM in 18 seconds, HM in 16 seconds.  Thanks, Quizzical! Darrell Kitchen (C) 21:10, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Monk
Easily dispatched in HM with standard 600 strategy: Protective spirit, spirit bond, retribution, balthazar's, essence bond, frenzy (OwED0jzPPax6BAAAgPkH6DtC). use spirit bond first, get bonds up as energy permits, keep spirit bond up, Get into meelee range so he attacks with axe. I did it first time in HM without having tested it with about 20 secs left on the clock for bonus. 85.225.246.242 13:07, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

More strategies
Kill doppel in 1-3 non elite skills (theoretical, havent tested yet)
 * Necromancer Insidious Parasite
 * Mesmer Illusion of Pain, Shatter Hex (plenty other ways for mesemer thats just my take on it, let him heal u)
 * Elementalist Conjure Flame, Mark of Rodgort (requires fire dmg wand/ staff)
 * Warrior Frenzy, Final Thrust, Shield Bash
 * Ranger Charm Animal, Crossfire, Lightning Reflexes
 * Paragon "Can't Touch This!", Signet of Aggression, Blazing Spear (gain adrenaline first for the edge then run up to him so he never get to use blazing spear May not work)
 * Monk Spear of Light, Bane Signet, Holy Strike (dont attack unless sure both his bane and spear are on recharge, run up to him and kd then use holy strike)
 * Ritualist Vengeful Weapon, Spirit Rift (DONT LET RIFT HIT YOU)
 * Rabus 15:54, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * If you're trying the mission in hard mode, then most of those won't work because the doppelganger's vanilla damage is so much higher than yours. Quizzical 17:21, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I have some stuff documented here (which, admittedly, I haven't updated in a long time - you have some better strategies now for Monk, for example) which was tested specifically in hardmode...I do assume that characters would use some skills from secondary or some easy-to-get pve skills, sometimes, and yeah, I have perma shadowform listed there for Assassin (I have to test that though: I think it's possible to do it without maintaining Shadow Form, which would make it valid). Entropy [[Image:Entropy Sig 2.jpg]] (C) 19:44, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * If you're going to use a secondary profession, then there's no need to get so fancy. Switch your secondary to mesmer and that will give you empathy without having to buy it separately.  Use empathy and an otherwise empty skillbar, dodge back and forth in combat while not casting empathy, and you win.
 * If the dodge back and forth part is too hard and you're willing to buy skills, then take a necromancer secondary, pick up insidious parasite and enfeeble (both available in Prophecies before reaching the Crystal Desert), take those two skills and an otherwise empty skillbar, and you win.
 * The only interesting question is how to win without using a secondary profession, and without using PvE-only skills. User:Quizzical/Prophecies_Hard  I guess I could spell out specific builds for the classes where it's easy, but I'd hope that wouldn't be necessary.  The other monk alternative that wasn't available when I did legendary guardian is Ray of Judgement and Restful Breeze, with an otherwise empty skillbar.  Quizzical 20:21, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * That's true, but that's boring and/or costs money. :p Entropy [[Image:Entropy Sig 2.jpg]] (C) 21:06, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * " Quizzical: The only interesting question is how to win without usind a secondary profession... " Not sure anyone even notice that I posted in the Necromancer topic that I have no secondary profession on my Necromancer. Darrell Kitchen (C) 22:34, 10 June 2009 (UTC)


 * What i was trying to do is give strategies that should beat him without needing an elite or relying on secondary, so they could b used in NM. If u want to use elites, secondaries or PvE skills its rly easy even in HM as a E/Me i used blinding flash with empathy to own him in HM, any1 with a lvl 20 pet can own him too - Rabus 21:02, 11 June 2009 (UTC)


 * If you're in easy mode, you can empty your skillbar, trade hits (i.e., not bother to dodge), and win. For martial weapon users, it shouldn't be close, either.  I tried it as a dervish and won with about half my health left, and considerably more than that as an assassin.  As a caster, it's closer, but I tried with an empty skillbar as a monk and still won.  I guess that might fail for people who don't have viable PvE gear (and a Prophecies character might not, having not yet reached Droknar's Forge), but that only takes a few alternate strategies to win, most of which are quite easy, and already on the page, for that matter.
 * Yes, Darrell, I saw that you weren't assuming a secondary profession for the necromancer build. Necromancer is one of the easy classes, though.  When I replied above, I assumed that the page had already said to use insidious parasite, and it kind of does, but it should probably spell it out more clearly.  The interesting classes are elementalist, assassin, and monk, as finding single-class strategies that work in hard mode for those wasn't easy.  For that matter, the assassin strategies listed only sometimes work in hard mode.
 * As for the other classes, mesmer, necromancer, ritualist, and ranger are completely trivial. In fact, I'm inclined to trim down those sections considerably so that the easy strategies aren't so buried and hard to find.  Dervish is very easy if you have an ebon scythe, but it would be good to have a reliable strategy that doesn't assume that.  The warrior and paragon strategies that work aren't hard to find, but aren't completely trivial to use.  Quizzical 00:30, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Have you tried using the semi-strategy I have on my page - taking a bunch of enchantments, Signet of Pious Restraint, and Vow of Strength (optimally)? I found it to be pretty reliable. Entropy [[Image:Entropy Sig 2.jpg]] (C) 00:36, 13 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I just tried it and destroyed doppelganger with about 60% health left over, though mostly I used different enchantments from the ones you list. Very nice; that should go in the article.  Trading hits with enchantments that deal damage probably isn't the best idea in hard mode, though.  Quizzical 01:14, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I just picked enchants at random, there are probably better ones. The thing with Vow of Strength that makes it perfect is that it stops working if the foe (you) has a condition (crippled). So it only works in your favor, even if the Doppelganger doesn't drop it. :) Entropy [[Image:Entropy Sig 2.jpg]] (C) 03:26, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

"I am the strongest!" + Ursan Blessing + pet
(using a W/R) Took about 3 tries, but on the third try managed to kill Doppelganger in HM by spamming 1, 2, then 3 when it gets up (in Ursan form). I don't think "I am the strongest!" actually does anything in Ursan form. Someone confirm? (Pet hits around 9 or so, but does help). 76.10.183.135 00:27, 4 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Wait now, you use cheats and it still takes three tries, and now you're advising others to do the same? Um, no.  Quizzical 00:41, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I wasn't telling anyone to use this strategy, I suggest you reread what I wrote before you let your ego talk. I was just wondering if "I am the strongest!" does anything in Ursan Form. Plus, this strategy is just something I threw together in about say, 2 seconds of thinking. It's not meant to be effective or even good. 69.165.163.248 01:45, 5 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Using ursan blessing removes all "effects". I'm not sure exactly what that includes, as it doesn't include everything that an average English-speaking person would consider an "effect"--such as consumables.  If that includes shouts, then no, it doesn't do anything.  You can try it yourself by watching to see if using ursan blessing removes the status box for the shout.  Quizzical 01:56, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The ursan skills aren't attacks if memory serves, so it wouldn't do much of anything even if the shout remained. Also, PvE-only skills are pretty much covered in: The doppelganger will not use most PvE-only skills at all, as mob AI was written assuming that mobs would not have access to PvE-only skills.  There's no reason to just list all the PvE skills. Toraen   talk  19:12, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

WTF?
I was doing the Z-Mission today, and on a whim decided to try using the Iron Mist trick. BUT when the doppelganger started meleeing me with his axe, he was hitting through iron mist. No other skills on my bar except frenzied defense. WTF? He has a lightning axe just for these sorta situations? EDIT: Just tested with mantra of lightning, yes, his axe has a lighning mod on it. Iron mist no worky in melee, and conjure lightning would be a bad idea Slypher the executive director 17:25, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Strange, he never even cast Iron Mist on me. I was using Mark of Rodgort and Flare, though. Is the Doppelganger getting smarter? It's only a matter of time before he murders us in our sleep and takes our place, with no one ever realizing what happened. --Macros 14:23, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

EotN Skill Set in HM, 20 second or less kill
While doing the Z-Mission I just thought to try 3 skills for the heck of it. YMLaD, Assassin Support, then Pain Inverter. Nothing else on skill bar. Usually kills it in HM in under 20 seconds. RIGHT after cut scene do YMLaD, Assassin Support, Pain Inverter and maybe hit YMLaD again when it comes back. Not even a challange. The Doppel does not seem to have or use these skills. I do have the Norn, Asuran, and Vanguard titles above level 4 on all my characters also. Oh and you need EotN expansion obviously. --Diggler 16:29, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, yes, PvE-only cheats work here, too, just like everywhere else in the game. The page already says that.  Quizzical 16:35, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Wow, what an elitist. Not only an elitist, but wrong. There are two lines concerning pve skills. The first is that he can not use most, the second is another alternative is using pve-only skills. Wow, real informative for a site that is supposed to be about providing information. So, in the sense of that I will be adding a new section to the bottom about what pve skills are the best to use here. That way it won't mess up anyone's list of builds, and the information will still be available to the people interested in reading it. Kind of sad to see a wiki, not wanting information listed. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke 17:18, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Aside from a few people, it looks like there is nothing wrong with listing viable pve builds at all. Sure this isn't pvx, though that site is horrible enough as is. I did a search there for doppelganger, and the only thing they have listed is an outdated m/a build. Of course there probably isn't enough interest in this article any more to be worth the effort of listing every pve skill, so I will do the top 5 and how best to use them. On my comment above I said you were wrong. Let me explain that so you will understand you were wrong in the sense that pve skills aren't talked about or listed. You weren't wrong in the sense that it does say pve only skills work here. Of course that isn't much use at all. I mean other than pvp, where don't pve skills work? So I will get to work doing those skills. I think number one might be Pain Inverter. Of course all these will be tested before hand, and only in hard mode. Normal mode doppelganger is pretty easy without pve skills [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke 17:32, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Warrior strategy in HM
I tried it in HM with the two Ripostes and Gladiator's defense, and another blocker I can't remember which. I could not beat it until I threw in Empathy with 9 Domination. Eventually he just outdamaged these 3 skills (others don't do any damage, only block), as you can't block everything. Most blocking stances also require adrenaline and don't last as long as they used to, so you need multiples to cover the gap in Glad's Def, and you can't gain any adren by attacking, you will have to wait out his Glad's Def and Ripostes. You can't use a spear to gain adren and avoid his blocking, because you must have a sword for Ripostes to work. I barely got enough to use Riposte with only 4 adren req. "Make sure to have enough blocking stances to always have one active" needs a bit more explanation, as I couldn't get it to work. Post something you know works in HM, please. RoseOfKali 19:12, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * There are a lot of blocking stances available. Don't just pick the few that are mentioned.  Grab some others, too.  Here's the build I just used:
 * 13 tactics, 2 swordsmanship, 1 strength (yeah, I unallocated a majority of my attribute points, just to prove a point)
 * sundering long sword of defense (15^50, perfect mods, req 9 swordsmanship)
 * wooden buckler (+16 armor, +30 health, 20% chance of -5 physical damage, req 9 tactics)
 * mostly knight's insignias on armor, though dreadnought on the helmet
 * +1 swordsmanship intrinsic to the helmet
 * minor runes of strength, swordsmanship, and tactics; superior runes of vigor and absorption
 * The gear I used isn't terribly important. I just grabbed what I had and list it for the sake of completeness.
 * Use deflect arrows at the start until the doppelganger switches to an axe, and for great justice at the start for a good chance at getting to use riposte once. Once the doppelganger switches to an axe, use deadly riposte, wait for it to hit, then gladiator's defense, and wait for it to wear off.  Use riposte if it lights up, and re-use deadly riposte once the cooldown is done.  Use shield stance and defensive stance as necessary when other blocking stances aren't available.  You may have to take a few hits with no blocking stance up.  Don't use frenzied defense.
 * I just did it in hard mode and finished with 539 HP left over. If you block several attacks in a row and aren't attacking, the game regards you as out of combat and gives you natural regeneration.
 * When I did this yesterday, I used a somewhat different build, and most notably forgot to switch to my tactics shield, so I didn't get the +16 armor because I had too low of strength. There's enough leeway that it didn't matter.  Quizzical 20:51, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 02:32, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 02:32, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

The empty skillbar approach
This is getting into 1RV territory, so I'll bring it here. Someone added a note that if you're a warrior and fight the doppelganger with perfect gear in easy mode and take an empty skillbar, you can outdamage it and you win. While true, the same strategy works for every class. At the very least, it shouldn't be specific to the warrior section.

Furthermore, it's really not a very good strategy to use at all for people the first time around. Saying, in order to win, you have to buy a crafted hammer for 2k plus materials, and go around getting a bunch of collector items to turn in for collector armor, is just a terrible thing to advise. If specific to easy mode, surely it would be better to say, just bring frenzy and don't use it. A Prophecies character gets that as a reward for his third quest in pre-searing--and the first quest to involve fighting anything.

I'll remove the note again unless someone can come up with a good reason to keep a rather useless note not specific to any class in the warrior section. Quizzical 22:54, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I removed it. Part of the reason was also that it seemed to have been made by RTEditor, which made "invisible" changes to the entire article (check revision history and compare versions).  If this is to be put back, it should be added into the general section as tips:  Max weapons can be crafted in Amnoon Oasis and max armor obtained from collectors around the desert.  This makes the fight much easier and can give you an advantage over the doppleganger without using any or just a few skills.
 * On the other hand, are you sure that this works for any class? 80 basic armor is the highest for warriors over other classes, and Dopple cannot use a hammer to gain it's huge base damage (it can however use hammer skills, so only the no-skill approach gives you damage advantage), it uses an axe for melee.  As I said before, big part of my motivation to revert is all the "invisible" edits that showed up for whatever reason, but this may as well only apply to warriors, further testing should be done to confirm for sure.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 23:04, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I tried trading hits with an empty skillbar and won as a couple of caster classes. It really does take perfect gear or something very close to it to make that work, I think, and not merely something kind of nice.  I'd assume that martial weapon users have more leeway, due both to their higher default armor and their higher weapon damage.  Quizzical 00:45, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with leaving out the empty skillbar approach from the article:
 * It's a specific case of the general strategy of forcing the doppel to use skills that benefit the player more.
 * It's dependent on equipment, not necessarily available to all players. (A perfect hammer is available as a /bonus item, but not everyone has access. As Quizzical notes, max armor is even harder to come by.)
 * The empty-bar doesn't fill a hole (ironically enough) in the article; there are plenty of tactics already available that anyone can use.
 * So, while I think it's a useful idea (it works!), I think it isn't helpful to enough players to be valuable to the article.  &mdash; Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 00:57, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Frenzy is much more accessible and, well, easier than this approach. Nix. --JonTheMon 04:48, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I moved this to a general note, as Quizzical said it works for other professions. It really doesn't belong in the Warrior section.  Feel free to reword it as needed.  The collectors in the Desert provide both max weapons and armor, while Vaughn only crafts martial weapons and focus items, no caster weapons, so I left him out.  In any case, this is a joke in NM no matter whom you play...  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 05:26, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * We're in 1RV territory again. Someone reverted Rose. &mdash; Balistic 12:14, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * My last edit is top right now, when I changed it to a general note. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 18:11, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd still contend that it doesn't belong on the page at all. Someone strong enough to win with an empty skillbar is strong enough that whatever build he comes up with will probably work.  A healing-heavy build may stalemate, and something too heavy on interrupts could be bad, but other than that, just about anything you could come up with will work.
 * When giving build advice for missions, my usual principle is that it doesn't belong on the page unless it's a lot better than what someone unfamiliar with the mission would be likely to come up with on his own. Often that means no build advice at all, as anything reasonable works about as well as anything else.  This mission is an exception, but I'd trust that a random player can come up with something better than an empty skillbar.  Whatever build he happens to have on his skillbar upon reaching Augury Rock for the first time would probably be better than an empty skillbar more often than not, and almost certainly if he removes any heals and interrupts.  Quizzical 19:37, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed, the no-skill approach is far from optimal, I wouldn't even call it useful, as it requires a lot of prep to get the gear if you don't already have it, and is not fool-proof even then. But at least my change ended the stupid revert war.  If someone is feeling brave, they can remove it entirely, and if this guy persists with the reverts, he needs a little time-out, as he has been notified of RV1.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 05:46, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Sacrificial Necromancer
Being that he used the same skills as you, why not add a bunch of skills that require sacrificing life? Also, does the doppelganger use pve skills as will such as sunspear and kurzick title skills? Charlie Stoneskin 08:39, 12 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Weird that it isn't in there... I always heard that Order of the vampire was an easy way of taking him down (combined with something else like order of the blood to prevent him getting life steal). I'm gonna test that.--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir 09:34, 12 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Many of the sacrifice skills allow the dopple to do enough damage or life steal that it will easily kill you faster than in kills itself, so it makes these skills much harder and "gimmicky" to use against the dopple. Insidious Parasite completely owns any other necro sac skills, as it doesn't give the dopple any damage advantage, and doesn't hurt you in any way as long as you don't attack.  In fact, if you have access to necro profession, all you need is Enfeeble (or Enfeebling Blood/Touch) and Insidious, and you just sit there and watch him die, even in HM.  This combo is so far superior to any other, that I don't even see a reason to post semi-viable builds with orders and such, to me it just seems like clutter.  Both skills are also available very early in the campaign, so any Prophecies necro should already have them, or has the option to go back and get them if missed from before, unlike many other "good" skills that are harder to get.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 13:51, 12 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I tested it today, all I used was insidious parasite, awaken the blood, Order of the Vampire, and some necrosis spam. AtB causes more health sac and causes OotV to do nothing at all (other necro enchantment). I killed him in about 10 seconds, casted OotV twice with AtB active. Helped a lot.--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir 16:12, 12 August 2009 (UTC)


 * And how much faster was it compared to just Insidious? And does it work without Insidious?  Simple strategy should be kept simple.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 16:37, 12 August 2009 (UTC)


 * You can give the doppelganger some skills, but you can't make it use them. Quizzical 17:08, 12 August 2009 (UTC)


 * What I can't believe, even though I am seeing it with my own eyes, is that Necromancer is even being discussed again (look above at this link). One skill on an otherwise empty skillbar, Insidious Parasite, is all that is required, even with Necromancer as a secondary profession. - Darrell Kitchen 13:13, 13 August 2009 (UTC)


 * That's what I was trying to say. Insidious is free/easy to get and that's ALL you need.  Everything else is just "gravy" or screws you up more than it helps.  Of course Necromancer is probably the most fun profession to experiment with in this mission, with mesmer being a decent runner up, but walkthroughs should be as simple as possible.  If there is something that always works and is easy to do, there's no need for anything else unless it's better/easier to get/even more brainless that "walk in, hit skill 1 and 2 and watch him die" with time to spare for bonus in HM.
 * On the other hand, Dervishes could use some love here, because the posted strategy for HM requires far progress into NF and a special weapon (earth). I was ready to smash something as I just couldn't beat the bastard with my nooby derv no matter what I tried (I didn't feel like buying an elite tome AND a weapon for this), so I made good use of Zratha Kor's services, bought myself Insidious, and never had to look back.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 19:17, 13 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I believe that one problem is that the current guide is too long; it appears to invite readers to add any technique that seemed really useful to them. This discussion page has a lot of ppls saying that this is an easy mission; the guide's length and detail tells a different story. I've attempted a shorter article, trying to limit it to the most useful Doppel basics and only 1-2 profession-appropriate strategies. I've cut about 50% of the length; it can probably be shortened another 25%. Although it's in my user space, feel free to comment/amend (or ignore).


 * Note: I've also arranged the strategies by technique rather than profession. I prefer this, as I believe it is better suited to helping players get past one of the common stumbling blocks in GW: switching from a build/profession-view of the game to a situational-focus.  &mdash; Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 23:57, 13 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I like some of the stuff you did in that article, while don't agree with all of it. I don't have much time right now, but I will review it more later.  I will say one thing now, though.  Most people expect it to be sectioned by profession just by the nature of the mission (and I think I prefer it that way too), so you will see a lot of people (especially random visitors) being confused as to why you are so radically changing the layout from something that's been there for 4 years.  But I do agree that it's too long right now and there is too much clutter, which invites more clutter.  I think your idea of outlining the strategies can be used to generally describe the strategies themselves and make people understand the point of the mission: to outsmart the dopple.  Then have a second half of the article with only the simplest most effective strategy for each profession, one that works every time and requires the least preparation, a-la Necromancer section right now (even though some professions have a much harder time and need a little more than one skill :P).  And, of course, something that always works for everyone in every mode is Ruby Djinn + E.V. Assassin + kite.  :P  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 03:38, 14 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The relevant question is not how much is on the page, but how much must one read in order to find what he is looking for. As you've set it up, it's not at all obvious which sections a player needs to check, so he'll basically need to read them all.  As the page is set up right now, a player knows which class he is and whether he is doing easy mode or hard mode, so he'd only need to read a small fraction of the page to find what he needs.
 * There are two separate audiences for the article, depending on whether the player is doing easy mode or hard mode. Someone looking for help in easy mode might be a player who only has Prophecies, and is likely a character who hasn't been to other campaigns and doesn't have a lot of spare gold.  Getting stuff from other campaigns or later in Prophecies may be unfeasible, buying new secondary profession skills may be too expensive, and switching to a different secondary profession may not even be a theoretical option.  The player likely doesn't have max gear, may not be level 20, and might not have runes, insignias, or weapon mods at all.  While it isn't too hard to come up with Prophecies-only strategies that work (at least for the core classes), it's important to have them.  Perhaps more can be assumed for a non-Prophecies class, since the character had to start in a different campaign.
 * Hard mode is a very different matter. A player looking to do the mission in hard mode is level 20, probably has either perfect gear or something very near it, can switch to another secondary profession if needed, and could buy new skills if he had to.  Even so, he likely won't happen to have a lot of skills on hand from outside his primary profession, and it's good to have strategies that let him win with what he has, rather than having to shell out several platinum for skills he'll never use again.  That's why I think it's important to have a single-class strategy for each class, with some options if possible so that the player doesn't have to go buy a bunch of skills he doesn't already have.  Someone with a well-developed secondary profession can easily check the class strategies for that section in addition to those for his primary profession.
 * I do think it's possible to cut down the page somewhat, but I think that sorting by classes is a sound way to organize the page. Each class could have two separate sections, one for things that work only in easy mode and not in hard mode, and one for things that work in both modes.  If something that works in hard mode is easy enough that a player with only Prophecies would probably have what he needs to use the same strategy in easy mode, there may not be a need to have the section for things that only work in easy mode.  That would probably be an improvement over the current method that lists easy mode tactics, and sometimes in the hard mode section, merely says to do the same thing as in easy mode.  Quizzical 04:30, 14 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I grant that it was overly paternalistic to remove the professions from the TOC. Fixed. And, wow, I hate to admit it reads much better.


 * By the way: I didn't add any advice to my version. Instead, whenever there was more than one tactic for the same strategy, I removed the extras (I favored techniques that could be applied or modified to HM and those that were discussed as more efficient or reliable). A lot of the skillbars were duplicates, phrased awkwardly so it was hard to tell. I spent extra time to be sure that the NM tactics offered my space required only basic gear/skills avail to someone who could reach Crystal Desert, but perhaps was run through the Dez mish. (I made an exception for the empty skillbar approach for no particular reason.) I also have tried to ensure that the strategies are really special to the profession, so that they don't require a specific secondary (exception: backfiring young Mesmers will really have better choices outside their primary for the wasted skills).


 * Newly styled, it's easier to see that there are other issues with the original article (or my recrafting of it): (1) there's only one strategy for paragons; there must be something paragonish we can add that is more reliable in NM and/or HM. (2) Warriors have too many unique strategies. Does that suit the fact that warriors are more flex vs. the Doppel? Or should some of them be removed? (3) One of the Rt tactics depends on a title skill; I don't know enough about the prof to suggest an alternate Rt skill. (4) while I'm good with the single Necro tactic (it's too good to be improved), I'm not so sure about the single Monk bullet. However, the other ideas in the original article seemed like weaker versions of the same. (6) Although the single Elementalist tactic is sound, there must be a less timid, more Elementalist approach that works.  &mdash; Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 06:05, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Ursan + Frenzy
If you have them just use them (well don't use frenzy but anyways >_<) :P works for all professions in NM and HM. Though it's always fun to experiment with different builds but if you want it easy go for ursan + Frenzy Alatar the Red 05:42, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, actually... the dopple is often reluctant to use Frenzy in HM and Frenzy is a warrior skill, so no, it's not for "all" professions. Ursan would also work by itself, but even with my 14 characters, 13 being level 20 and having beaten at least 2 campaigns, only ONE of those 14 has Ursan, so yeah...  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 17:12, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Frenzy
Has anyone ever seen the Doppelganger actually use this skill? I've thrown Frenzy or Frenzied Defense onto like a hundred different bars over the years and I've never once seen them used. Is it just a "nice idea" that someone came up with once, but has never actually worked? (T/C) 23:24, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It worked once upon a time. I took Frenzy wehn I did this on my War, and was overjoyed to hit for 80+ damage with Power Attack, but that was over 40 months ago. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  00:36, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * He won't use it in HM, but I've had him use it in NM quite a few times, usually at the start of the fight when he's at full health. If he's below 70% health and you are attacking him in melee, don't expect him to use Frenzy... RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 00:59, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It's not just the doppelganger. Quite a few mobs have frenzy and will use it in easy mode, but none will use it in hard mode.  Quizzical 01:05, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Today's sign of the apocalypse
The Augury Rock Zaishen mission came and went, and no one tried to change this page. Quizzical 14:26, September 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * OMFG I MISSED IT! O_O *cries* RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 20:15, November 9, 2009 (UTC)

Asassin easy victory
I beat my dopleganger on my level 18 sin in 4 attacks. use the skills from left to right, quickly as he tends to hit you hard ;) My armour was Seitung (55)

Skills: Dagger Mastery 12, Deadly arts 12 (I used minor runes to bump me up) See: | Video Skyfiire 20:10, November 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * While I don't doubt that that build can work, it looks like it's basically of the trade hits and you win if you're strong enough variety. Does the Doppelganger arbitrarily refuse to use one of those skills, giving you some advantage?  It's probably better to restrict to advice that gives you a clear advantage, rather than something that would work just as well as an empty skillbar.  Quizzical 21:26, November 9, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, from the video, it seems that basically the AI is a fucking retard and doesn't use the chain well. As expected. It didn't even use Death Blossom, just used DD again --Gimmethegepgun 22:13, November 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, we already have this tip, in a generalized form: "As a general rule, if you can start a dagger chain that you can use but the Doppelganger will not, it is quite easy to out damage it." That's pretty much what this "build" is, an attack chain that the AI bungles.  Instead of removing this, however, I'll combine it into the general note so that we have one example that is known to work.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 22:54, November 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * One of the perennial problems with this article is that everyone and his neighbor's dog wants to add his own build to the page, which makes it a cluttered mess and awkward to use. I've probably removed dozens of tips from the page for that reason over the course of the last couple of years.
 * I don't object to the page saying, here's a particular attack chain that the doppelganger won't use properly. It could use some such suggestions for assassins in easy mode not yet strong enough to win by trading hits, as there isn't a completely trivial such strategy for assassins (unlike some other classes), and the hard mode ones are too complicated for a newer character that merely wants to get through.  I'd rather not start putting skillbar templates on the page, though, as that would require reformatting the entire page for consistency.  It might also mean enough such templates that the page wouldn't load them all properly.  Quizzical 02:21, November 10, 2009 (UTC)

Title Track Skill Victory
It looks like the doppleganger is unable to use any title track skills you have slotted. I equipped Arcane Echo (or Echo), Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support, and Pain Inverter. Both Hard Mode and Easy Mode take about 10 seconds to win. Pia Medici 02:05, November 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * Doppel IS able to use Vapmirism and Winds, at least. Though, it is true that he can't use the vast majority of PvE-only skills. This is already noted in the article (in the "general" sections before getting into professions advice, I believe). RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 02:11, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

Sneak Attack
It is clearly stated that PvE skills provide great advantage, as he can't use most of them. However, I think this case is worth keeping. This skill is very easy to obtain, and is a single skill. The other strategies for Assassin in Hard Mode suggest entire skill bars in long paragraphs of conditional if-then-maybe's, yet this is short and simple, not to mention effective. I'd rather go do a quick quest to get this and use my other attacks that I already have, than wonder about what other skills I have to buy to get through this. Basically I think this is worth staying as an HM strategy. RoseOfKali 16:44, November 27, 2009 (UTC)
 * I could go either way, but I generally agree with the above. It's different than just bringing only PvE skills and thus, in a sense, it isn't really covered by the article (which really just says that the doppleganger can't use most PvE-only skills and leaves it at that).  It's an unique adaptation newer players are probably not likely to think of, so I think there's a good case for this being an exception.  Nwash  [[Image:User-Nwash-Eyes.png|link=User talk:Nwash]] 16:50, November 27, 2009 (UTC)
 * Exactly what you two said. Taking Sneak Attack as your only lead attack with offhand/dual attacks on the rest of the bar is a very special case &mdash; a single PvE skill disabling the entire bar for the Dopp.  This is even better than taking only Ursan Blessing, as dagger attack chains can do a whole lot more DPS than Ursan.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:56, November 27, 2009 (UTC)


 * But there are a lot of other PVE-only skills that make winning trivial. Are we to list them all?  And list them all separately under every single class section?  It would be hard to find anything else on the page if we did that, making the page useless.  I realize that there is some synergy here, but even without the synergy, other PVE-only skills will are just as effective.
 * Even if you do want to keep the comment, putting a non-assassin skill in the assassin section is very bad. This page has been constantly plagued by people putting skills of one class into the section for another class, and saying in every single class section to use empathy or insidious parasite would be ridiculous.  It's hard enough to keep people from adding the first such "this class should take a particular secondary or PVE-only skill"; if there are already some on the page, then people will think that adding more is encouraged, and we get back to the cluttered mess that I've been trying to ward off.  The entire point of the single class sections is how to beat doppelganger using only skills of that particular class.  Quizzical 17:37, November 27, 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay, keep the class sections class-specific and add a section for PvE-only tips. That way all the "clutter" is kept in one spot.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 17:46, November 27, 2009 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) It is a lead attack, a purely assassin skill property, thus your argument is invalid. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 17:48, November 27, 2009 (UTC)


 * My warrior uses Sneak Attack, and I used to carry it around on my Ele. It's a Melee attack and thus usable with any melee weapon, not only with daggers. It just counts as a Lead attack. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  18:05, November 27, 2009 (UTC)


 * If sneak attack is an assassin skill, then Ebon Battle Standard of Honor is an elementalist skill, Weakness Trap is a ranger skill, and Ursan Blessing is a dervish skill. That's absurd.
 * If you want to have a PVE-only skills section to put more specific PVE-only skills, then go ahead. But don't put it in the assassin section.  The entire point of the single-class sections is how to beat the mission without having to go buy secondary profession skills or resort to PVE-only cheats.  Quizzical 18:07, November 27, 2009 (UTC)
 * Did you really miss my point? Well, a PvE-only section is fine. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 18:10, November 27, 2009 (UTC)


 * Did you miss mine? Only assassins have attack chain skills, just like only elementalists have wards, only rangers have nature rituals, and only dervishes have forms.  Quizzical 18:18, November 27, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sure she understands just fine, being as she didn't call Sneak Attack an assassin skill, but called a lead attack an assassin property. Lead attacks benefit only assassin attack chains.  Sure, it had other effects as well, but read her statement; the lead attack mechanic is only useful in enabling other assassin attacks.  We aren't missing the point.  We simply see no reason to dispute it as it is irrelevant to the argument that was made; it's a strawman you brought in, unless you believe that wards, nature rituals, and dervish forms have mechanics which solely benefit skills of the relevant professions.
 * That said, I do appreciate the other arguments, and while I am not convinced that it does not belong in the Assassin section, including it in a PvE section instead is just fine as well. Nwash  [[Image:User-Nwash-Eyes.png|link=User talk:Nwash]] 18:36, November 27, 2009 (UTC)
 * What Nwash said, anyway. Q, their entire skill bars don't depend on being in a ward, affected by a ritual, or in a form, do they? Unlike any other PvE skill (well ok, besides Cry of Pain and There's Nothing to Fear iirc), Sneak Attack is designed for assassin attack chain mechanic, but usable by other classes. Also, the suggestion of using it to disallow the doppel to use any attack skills can be used exclusively by an assassin, any other class can't exploit it in this way, so I still think it belongs in the assassin section for that very reason, it's useless to the rest. Any class can use PI or summon a Djinn equally well, but this is an assassin-only exploit. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 19:41, November 27, 2009 (UTC)


 * "or summon a Djinn equally well". Really? Spawning Power. :D --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  19:44, November 27, 2009 (UTC)
 * Didn't consider that they were affected. I don't think I've ever had my Djinn die even in HM, so this is of no benefit in the fight, and thus still works the same with or without SP. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 19:50, November 27, 2009 (UTC)


 * Only dervishes can take advantage of the energy gain from an enchantment ending. Therefore all self-castable enchantments are dervish skills, or at least a build that uses them belongs in the dervish section.  Absurd?  Of course:  enchantments aren't mainly used for the mysticism energy gain of them ending.  Similarly, sneak attack is used mainly for the blinding effect, not that it is a lead attack.
 * You can argue that in this particular case, that sneak attack is a lead attack is important. If I were to come up with a dervish build that takes heavy advantage of getting energy back from PVE enchantments ending, would that make them dervish skills?  To do that would completely defeat the point of having a dervish skills only section.
 * Even in this particular case, the blinding effect of sneak attack is vastly more important than that it is a lead attack. If sneak attack caused a blinding effect but did not count as a lead attack, using it would still make beating the doppelganger trivial as an assassin--just as it does for a warrior or dervish with no assassin skills.  It's actually pretty comparable to the ebon dust aura dervish build.  If it were a lead effect but did not cause blinding, it might still work, but it's hardly obvious that it would, as the doppelganger has considerable vanilla melee damage.  Quizzical 19:59, November 27, 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Dude, this isn't about the skill itself, it's about the strategy around this particular skill being a lead attack unusable by the opponent. Feel free to generalize it around the blind effect rather than lead attack, if you feel so passionately about it. RoseOfKali 20:47, November 27, 2009 (UTC)


 * Without the blindness effect, it's not immediately obvious that the strategy would work at all. You could probably fill in around it and make it work, but it's not completely trivial.  Quizzical 22:15, November 27, 2009 (UTC)