User talk:Tupu/Build Archive/Build:Team - 55/SS FoW

Discussion
Very well done article, had to search hard to find something to critize, but I did find something ;-) It is very obvious, but should still be mentioned in case new 55monk players read this: Protective Spirit needs to be kept up under all circumstances. That should be mentioned for the monk. --Xeeron 23:11, 18 March 2006 (CST)


 * Meanie! :) Well, I didn't want to re-explain 55ing here and assumed/hoped the reader who is not familiar with how it's done will go read the Invincible Monk article first. This is why I mentioned that 55ing in FoW (with the extra burden of keeping SB up) is an advanced form compared to UW or griffon hunting. I did mention that if Prot Spirit is taken off the monk is toast. :) --Karlos 01:15, 19 March 2006 (CST)

Nice indeed. Good descriptive information concerning skills and usage. I wanna try it out right now. :D --Gares Redstorm 00:24, 19 March 2006 (CST)

Category
I copied that stuff from the B/P tombs build and forgot to fix it. Xeeron, I am curious though as why the B/P tombs build is classified as PvE build while this would be classified as farming (or is the B/P one mis-classified?). I have not been paying a close attention to the build debates, so I may have missed a clear explanation. --Karlos 01:18, 19 March 2006 (CST)


 * The B/P build is not classified as farming because I objected to its classification as such at the time. However, I am not averse to reclassifying that build as farming, as that seems to be its major use these days. Heck, this present build is far more innovative than B/P has been in forever. &mdash; Stabber 01:21, 19 March 2006 (CST)


 * Yep, I wanted to classify B/P as farming as well, but Stabber objected and then the debate got delayed (and is not resolved yet, but I feel that Stabber has come around to my point of view a bit), so I didnt want to change while we had not finished discussing, check the talk page. --Xeeron 01:42, 19 March 2006 (CST)


 * I think the generic 55/SS team build (with much of the tips from this article actually) should be a generic PvE build because you can literally do 80% of the high-end explorable areas in the game with that build, regardless of your purpose (farming, completing missions or questing). The specific locale variants (liek the UW build or this build) should be farm builds because they are mostly for that. We devised this build as a challenge to try and do as many quests as posible with just two guys (made 2 so far, Tower of Courage and Army of Darkness) but I am fairly certain this will become a popular farming build in ToA soon. :( --Karlos 01:47, 19 March 2006 (CST)


 * Hehe, do you remember it was you who introduced the farming builds category? It is comming back to haunt you. ;-)


 * Whenever I see a build that will be used by 90% of its users for farming purposes, I put that into the farming category. You might have designed this build as a challenge, but do you really think more than 1 or 2 others will use this for anything but farming? :-/ --Xeeron 02:01, 19 March 2006 (CST)


 * We seem to be in agreement, I have no further quests, your honor. :) --Karlos 02:17, 19 March 2006 (CST)

Math is a little off
The article says with the item combo used that SS can be cast 4 times in a span of 10 seconds 1/3 of the time. This doesn't take into account that the probabilities of a single fast recaharge are much higher than the probabilitiy of multipul fast recharges. you can only get 4 off in 10 seconds if BOTH recharge faster, either 1/2 or 1/4 cast times on both copies. this only happens 16% of the time. it would be more accurate to say that the combination of times reduces the average recharge time of SS to 8.1 seconds so i've put that in place of the previous figure. 03:04, 19 March 2006 (CST)


 * You only need one fast recharge to get 4 off in 10 seconds. Which is a 25% hope (less than the 36% chance calculated). Echo, SS, echoed SS then if ONE of them recharges faster (in 5 or 2 seconds), then cast it and by thes, the 10 seconds from the other SS would have passed, so cast it. So, technically it's 10 seconds between the first 2 SS and the last of the 4 SS. Only thing that will hold you back is energy. --Karlos 03:23, 19 March 2006 (CST)


 * That's ignoring the cast times. If you get half recharge time on the first one you get 4 in 14 seconds and if you get half recharge on the second you get 4 in 12 seconds from the time the first ss finishes casting.  If you get a 1/4 charge time on the first one and full recharge on the second you get 4 in 12 seconds and if you get 1/4 recharge on the second but full recharge on the first you still get 4 in 12 seconds.  Basically if you don't get a fast recharge on both you're limited by the full 10 second recharge on the other copy.  It is possible to get 4 in less than 12 seconds even if they don't both fast recharge but this requires that the same copy gets 1/4 recharge twice in a row.  This occurance is so rare, .16%, it's basically statistically insignificant.  Still, it doesn't really make sense to include information on the number of castings per some arbitrariy length of time, like 10 seconds.  It's far more useful to average the recast times with and without the upgrades and use that for comparison. 10:14, 19 March 2006 (CST)


 * Agreed. I like how you put it. --Karlos 11:42, 19 March 2006 (CST)

Curiosity
just out of curiosity, what's the reasoning behind using shadow of fear in the off slot as was done by the necro in the screenshot? if it's an SS based damage build wouldn't reducing attack rates be bad because you would lower the damage output of your ss hex? 03:16, 19 March 2006 (CST)


 * That's an earlier screenshot from when we had problems with the Abysmals. :) My monk friend had not "gotten used to their abuse" yet, so I thought maybe shadow of fear would help him withstand them (at the expense of a slower kill). Ended up not casting it at all that run. :) I use Hex Breaker if I am going to the beach or Conjure Phantasm if we are going to try and clear the temple of war.
 * This is my present build there, and proof we did eventually best the abysmals :)
 * [[image:Ques_done.jpg]]
 * --Karlos 03:32, 19 March 2006 (CST)
 * yeah i figured it would be something like that. seems like SV would be most useful against them what with earth shaker being an adrenal skill but you probably already knew that because SV is in the build :D.  great work by the way. 10:18, 19 March 2006 (CST)


 * SV is not that useful because their regular attack (not all, but some, for some reason) cause knockdowns. They will knock the monk down with their first hit long before Earthshaker recharges. In addition, getting knocked down and then hit with Crushing Blow is a great thing for the monk. :) Makes Mending more effective. We might still try Shadow of Fear if we try to do the Tower of Strength with the groups of 4 Abyssals. --Karlos 11:44, 19 March 2006 (CST)

Unstub
Having played as part of this duo (SS/SV nec) several times (although before the article existed on the wiki), I can say that this build is very effective (and the article well written), and as such I am going to unstub it. -- 05:11, 20 March 2006 (CST)

Resurrection Signet?!?
What is the necro's res signet for? Or is the meaning to put -50hp artifact or one of the armor parts away after monk is ressed or what? --I Follow The Blind 14:50, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Yes, that's what is traditionally done in 2-man 55/SS teams. Assuming the monk is in a "rezzable" spot. SS necro will rez, switch off-hands right away and cast Prot Spirit on himself. This gives him enough time to run away. Problematic situations include the monk being "past the enemy" (the SS necro has no tanking ability what so ever), the presence of a near-by mesmer who can shatter the monk on the spot or the monk being too close to an attacker than he can't switch out items fast enough. With time, practice and patience the first death is recoverable 95% of the time. Of course, the best case scenario is that the monk not die altogether. --Karlos 15:02, 17 June 2006 (CDT)

I took out the bit at the bottom about not using Resurrection Signet because a monk at 1hp is useless. While true, it's easy enough for a monk to raise its health with a weapon swap, and indeed a monk at 33hp is more affective than one at 55. If someone wants to put it back in, I'd change the language at least. - Mortius Medici 20:09, 20 February 2007 (CST)

Underworld - Counters against dying nightmares
55/SS teams are common in the underworld. in fact, i see more 55/ss teams going to the uw than fow. since there isnt a 55/ss team build for the underworld page, i guess ill ask my question here: how can i, an SS necro, counter the dying nightmares to help the 55 survive? i realize that if the dying nightmare is encountered alone it can be taken care of easily, but if its in the middle of a group of enemies and we cant kill it before SB wears off, what can i do? i thought about bringing along guilt and casting it on the dying nightmare before SB wears off so the monk would have a little bit more time, but it lasts only 4 seconds without any points in domination. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.16.138.135 (contribs) 00:32, 14 July 2006.
 * Skills that interrupt Rend Enchantments, like Power Drain, should be used by the monk to interrupt Rend Enchantments. It's in our Solo 55 monk UW build. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 23:40, 13 July 2006 (CDT)
 * If the monk tanks well, you can kill the nightmare with a few hits from your wand. I find it hard to believe that few if any necromancers know this. You should have at least around 20 secs and it takes about 2-3 hits. For my two-man UW monk build, I'm Mo/W for bonetti's so I don't have power drain. Been working fine (SB with power drain as backup on the necro). --Vortexsam 02:40, 15 July 2006 (CDT)

fighting monks
in the build it says that when you are fighting monks put sv on the 55 and use desecrate enchantments. well im not 100% but i think sv only takes away energy when the 55 is hit by a melle. since tht spell casters use either wands or staff the monk will not loss energy while it is attacking the 55.


 * I think the idea here is to draw other enemies close to the monk, namely the Shadow Warriors. With their quick attack speed, SV can hamper the monk's ability to heal the damage dealt by SS. Though, with two monks healing each other and only casters attacking you, it is difficult at times to do enough damage. --Ryard 18:12, 5 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Yes, SV will do nothing if the monk does not have a melee guy to pull to the monk. That's why in the Forgemaster area, it becomes hard to take out the 2 monk-2 mesmer pairs because the monks can keep the alive for ever and the mesmers can kill the 55. That part needs a lot of practice to get it right (or a third members with an extra SB). :) --Karlos 18:29, 5 September 2006 (CDT)


 * After trying multiple FOW runs I fount that the shadow rangers tend to target the SS every so often. This can be very fustrating when you take roughly 50 damage per hit. Walking away works sometimes but occasionally, the rangers re-target. I was just wondering if anyone else has encountered this problem.--spcypnts 22:28, 9 September 2006 (cdt)


 * You just need to build experience. First, wait till they are on the monk, SS two of them then walk away (don't stand around wanding them). After a few seconds (as your energy builds up) go in and desecrate. Step back... If your monk is using his melee weapon 95% of the time they will stay on him. What I do as a monk is I keep switching between the two rangers so they stay on me. Worst comes to worst, the monk can throw protective spirit on you. However, you must know that the longer you sustain aggro, the less energy he will have to help you. --Karlos 05:53, 10 September 2006 (CDT)

The 55 monk
Um... can the 55 monk be replaced with the spirit bonder solo monk with a few changes like taking out blessed sig and sheild of judgement and smiting prayers then put the rest in protection and divine favor and the recommended spell breaker and arcane echo?
 * Have a look at my Spirit Bonding Guide for a build that should work.

--Mgrinshpon 21:55, 29 September 2006 (CDT)

Recharge math...
First of all, it's 36% not 40%. We've been through this a few times. 20% of 20% is 4% and then 80% of 20% is 16% and 20% of 80% is 16% so the title is 16 + 16 + 4 = 36%. As far as an update preventing two recharges kicking in. That update said it "lowered" the recharge cap to 50%, but the double HSR always kicked in even before that update. --Karlos 00:11, 20 October 2006 (CDT)


 * I get that, but the double HSR kicking in (as you put it) now ends up as simply a HSR. Effectively, as I see it, it turns out like this:


 * 60% chance of normal recharge rate.
 * 36% chance of halved recharge rate.
 * 4% chance of 1/4 recharge rate, which, thanks to the update, is now a halved recharge rate. Effectively, this can be rewritten as an additional 4% chance of halved recharge rate.

Since 36+4=40, I figured it would be safe to rewrite the article. --Armond Warblade (talk) 22:37, 21 October 2006 (CDT)
 * It is not 40%. The 36% includes that 4%. So it's is this:


 * 64% chance of normal recharge rate.
 * 32% chance of halved recharge rate.
 * 4% chance of 1/4 recharge rate, which, thanks to the update, is now a halved recharge rate. Effectively, this can be rewritten as an additional 4% chance of halved recharge rate.


 * prob(event A or B happens) = prob(event A happens) + prob(event B happens) - prob(event A and B happens). prob(event A and B happens) is 20% * 20% = 4%. Thus the equation is 20% + 20% - 4% = 36%, which already includes a 4% chance that A and B both happen.


 * To visually see this, take a look at this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venn_diagram and see if you can understand why you need to subtract the overlap (hint: when you overlap the two circles, how many times did you count the center portion?) --Ryard 10:33, 22 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Ah HAH. Thanks for the AP Stats review. (Ms. Grace is gonna shoot me. >.<) --Armond Warblade (talk) 19:20, 22 October 2006 (CDT)

SS nerf
Hey, hasn't the monster AI been changed that SS farming is nerfed? The 55/SS UW team is now unfavoured. Any reason why this still is?--Akmdw 17:19, 26 December 2006 (CST)
 * What you smokin? The 55/SS UW team is still favoured, it still works, not sure about this one though, never tried it, but it should be the same.
 * The 55/SS UW team farm build became unfavored after the AI nerf. But there's been an AI fix(apparently) and is now favored again. And I smoke cigars. --Akmdw 08:21, 30 December 2006 (CST)
 * hehe :] Foo 10:26, 30 December 2006 (CST)
 * I thought that what you were smoking was abit fatter and, hmm, not allowed in many countries... Dr Titan 20:28, 30 December 2006 (CST)

Merge?
Ok, I know there's got to be a good reason this hasn't been merged with, but I need someone to explain it to me. --Armond Warblade (talk) 21:33, 30 December 2006 (CST)
 * Cause obviously both these builds are totally different, just like how we have hundreds of boon prot builds. ¬_¬ --Apathy 11:49, 29 January 2007 (CST)
 * Well, I'm generally neutral on a merge, and I think it will be a fair bit of work because you'll have to generalize the non-FoW/UW stuff into one section, then put in special sections for both UW and FoW (and UW will be hard to tease out of . Also, I tend to think that the 55's job is a bit harder in FoW, and that the echo->SB is more important (utterly unneccessary in UW). None of this is a good argument against a merge of course. I also suspect gem may have something to say about this if she sees it. -- [[Image:Ranger-icon-small.png|25px]]Oblio (talk) 13:12, 29 January 2007 (CST)


 * A merge is a bad idea. The UW 55 does not rely on Echo SB to stay alive and does not badly need it. That build does. Also, this article has a detailed guide on how to beat the mobs. --Karlos 21:18, 29 January 2007 (CST)
 * idd. Foo 05:51, 30 January 2007 (CST)
 * I say merge. The 55/ss should have a section for FoW farming, and this should be listed in variants. Just like how you guys unfavoured Build:Mo/Me PvP WoH because there was already . -- Nova  [[Image:NovaSmall.PNG]] --  (contribs) 18:10, 16 March 2007 (CDT)


 * That is assuming that there is such a voting policy. Voting history and precedent is not policy here. In fact, given that most people who vote change over time it's not indicative of much. Especially when you are comparing a team PvE farming build with a Single player PvP build. --Karlos 20:29, 18 March 2007 (CDT)