Talk:Master of the North

maybe this is just like protector titles? Suicidal Romance X 21:19, 24 August 2007 (CDT)

Or Possibly Like Vanquisher?Jay Mcgrath 21:44, 24 August 2007 (CDT)

I've been getting 5 mastery points every time I complete a subsection of the main quest. I had 5 before I helped Jora clear her homestead, then 10 afterwards. --66.245.217.210 23:52, 24 August 2007 (CDT)

mine jumped from 15 to 25 after i reached R3 Norn.......maybe a bunch of things apply to it...such as GW:EN completion rate, gain points as u finish more GW:EN related stuff...dunno how to sign sry....


 * four ~ characters in a row Xantalas 14:37, 25 August 2007 (CDT)

I think I got 5 points for the first completion of each the above ground "mission" quests (the ones that have flag-shaped map markers like Curse of the Nornbear) and 10 points for completing Sepulchre of Dragrimmar (not sure if it was the quest or the dungeon itself, or if the two are linked). Anyone want to confirm this? --Lavos 15:57, 25 August 2007 (CDT)

You get 5 points for clearing a primary quest dungeon.

You get 10 points if you clear an optional dungeon like Frostmaw's Burrow or Raven's Point.

As far as I know during the Sneek Peak Weekend you can get 5 points each for the 3 primary quest "tasks" (Curse of the Nornbear, Blood Washes Blood, A Gate Too Far) and you get 10 points each for the 3 dungeons (Frostmaw's Burrows, Sepulchre or Dragrimmar, Raven's Point), resulting in a possible maximum of 45 points. Of course I might be missing something... T.T.H. 16:45, 25 August 2007 (CDT)
 * That's right, except there are 4 dungeons, you're missing Darkrime Delves. I've done the 3 quests 1 time each and each dungeon once, and I'm at 55.24.186.207.198 23:17, 26 August 2007 (CDT)

Ive just had a look, and ive currently got 55 points. Ive completed all missions and all dungeons (as well as repeating one dungeon) and i have R5 Norn and R3 Dwarf

That would be because there are 4 dungeons, not 3, resulting in a max of 55 points currently --Random man


 * It must be 5 per Mission and 10 per Dungeon because I got 55 points and ive beaten 4 dungeons and 3 Missions..'

good title

Repetition?
I'm assuming, based on player input so far, but I'm not sure...do you only get points toward this the first time through a dungeon/quest, or each time?24.186.207.198 23:21, 26 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Once. It's marked as complete on your map once you've completed a dungeon/mini-mission. --Kale Ironfist 23:45, 26 August 2007 (CDT)

More points?
well i thought i had 55 when GW:EN ended but now i have 88, i dont know what i did to get those points, it might be because im doing all the bonus missions i skiped in prop? 76.166.150.206 05:10, 30 August 2007 (CDT)AkaZero Yea, I now have 95 points. I have rank 5 Norn and rank 3 Deldrimor, maybe you get 5 points per rank in GWEN title tracks? Though that wouldn't fit with your 88... Puzzling. Showb1z 07:48, 30 August 2007 (CDT)
 * It's possible that they added points for doing quests. Or for Cartographing (since it looks like GEN won't have a Cartographer Title. I did every quest except the one with Destroyer Cores, mapped everything, and have R4 Norn and R2 Dwarf. I have now 95 Points. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 09:15, 30 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I also mapped everything, and did every quest except that one, could be extra points for mapping and/or master difficulty quests i guess. Showb1z 09:33, 30 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I have 84 now, done every dungeon, missed some of the quests, r4 norn and r2 deldrimor. [[Image:Melandru's Shot.jpg|19px]]Enigma 13:35, 30 August 2007 (CDT)
 * yeah im r3 norn r2 dwarf, but i maaped alot and did alot of quest Akazero 16:55, 30 August 2007 (CDT)AkaZero
 * I had 55 points at the end of the weekend (did all quests + dungeons), I'm r7 Norn and r2 Dwarf and have 90 points now. Not sure if those factor in, but I figured more data here wouldn't hurt. Xylex Darkreaver 22:19, 30 August 2007 (CDT)
 * It's exploration that gives the extra points. Far Shiverpeaks counted for 40 points apparantly.
 * Seems like a way to avoid a new cartographer, guardian etc. title track and therefore the need to reset the legendary [...] titles. It's fine I guess although 'God walking among mere mortals' might be harder to reach. --85.16.0.187 06:20, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Sitting at 265 points right now. 3 more dungeons left and a little exploring. Doesnt seem like max could be too high unless you get the points again for completing the dungeons a second time. As of now it seems 350 is about all you could reach. Gandorf
 * I can confirm you don't get any more points after completing a dungeon more than once. I was expecting to see 350 already listed as max on this page...but we'll find out soon enough. &mdash;Vendetta411 20:25, 1 September 2007 (CDT)

Tally It up
Only a guess so far, but makes some kind of sense, there's 20 spots in the handbook, and well 10 sounds like a nice number for quests :)


 * 18 Dungeons
 * 180 Points
 * 16 Primary Quests
 * 80 Points
 * Exploration of the north
 * ~90 Points
 * }
 * ~90 Points
 * }

calculation
actually it would be 18 dungeons, 16 main quests, and map if u add up the dungeon points witch is 180(18*10) with the main quest points witch equal 80(16*5) it would be 260 not including the map points.
 * Ok, fixed the table, mabie with some touching up, it could be thrown into the page --Nela 17:01, 2 September 2007 (CDT)

hopefully this doesn't require u to spend a lot of time hugging walls to get all the points like the cartographer titles
 * Actually, I just happened to hug a certain wall and got one point from it. I can also confirm that you don't get points from vanquishing an area, neither from first world boss kills. I have Shards and Slavers' to go, and almost the complete map by now, yet it eludes me how I am supposed to get the rest from my 281 points up to 350. -- Yu 13:43, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Edit> Apparently, I am still missing more of the map than I thought. Scraping borders brought to my attention that I still have two large areas in the Asuran part which I didn't thoroughly map yet. But I am through with the northern territories, now at 285. The remaining areas might still yield some points, but I somewhat doubt that it will be 5 or more points. So, let that be 5, then we have: 160 right now from dungeons, 80 by quests and (maybe) 50 from mapping, with two dungeons left to run, would add up to 310. Where do I get the remaining 40 points from? -- Yu 16:14, 4 September 2007 (CDT)

Do you get points for every Dungeon? Because I don't think I got any points for the "joke" dungeons Fronis' Lair and the Snowmen Hideout... Showb1z 09:14, 3 September 2007 (CDT)

I expect that its 80 points for the 16 quests, 170 points for dungeons (not counting the Elite dungeon), and 100% for the mapping. gives a nice 350 without needing to do the elite. Elite missions didn't count in protector titles so i think its reasonable. Sadie2k 14:46, 3 September 2007 (CDT)

i don't think u get 100 points for exploring the map cuz i have done all the main quests and 13 of the dungeons and i have explored like 98% of the map and i only have 266 points and if subtract the 210 points i have gotten from the 13 dungeons and all the main quests that would mean 56 of the points i have is from the map and i know im not perfect but i know i haven't missed half the map so at most i would say at most u can get 60 points form the map.
 * By my calculations (assuming that the last 2 missions both give 5 points, and all the dungeons I don't have give 10, and I missed 1 point while exploring) you can get 365 points. yeah, I know that doesn't fit anywhere, but it's what I got... &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 18:04, 3 September 2007 (CDT)

What about bosses? I just noticed that my title went up 1 point, after I killed a boss. Not sure wether it was from exploring the tiny area, or killing the boss. Anyone care to check my theory? I'll continue clearing this area and keep track of my title now 88.197.163.126 06:35, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Killing a boss for the first time increases your title progression. [[Image:Monk-icon-small.png]]SilverFury[[Image:Monk-icon-small.png]] 06:42, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Just killed a Mesmer boss in Verdant Cascades (Wind Rider type, they all stand still on the bridge in the middle), my title bar did not receive any points.
 * Ok, I thought I got some points from killing a boss - but it was from exploring... maybe we get more points when maybe the Hard Mode is coming. [[Image:Monk-icon-small.png]]SilverFury[[Image:Monk-icon-small.png]] 07:57, 4 September 2007 (CDT)

Guess this theory could be scrapped, it's just exploring that counts. 88.197.163.126 07:05, 4 September 2007 (CDT)

Points for Exploration = 65
90 Points for exploration is way too much. I've made all quests and so far 8 dungeons and gained 213 points during the process. Having two legendary cartagrophers and having explored everything in GWEN I have to assume the missing parts contribute 2 points. Since Fronis Lair does not provide any MotN points exploration gives 213-80(pq)-70(dungeon)+2(assumed)= 65 points to the title.
 * I've done all primary quests and 7 Dungeons (1 less then you) and have 254 points. Assuming I'm missing 1 point from exploring, that makes 90. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 13:55, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
 * A mystery this is! I have found the missing spots thanks to a map that google provided helping me up to 215 points. It seems that a. some dungeons of mine have not been taken into account or b. there are other ways to get points.
 * Indeed! I have also finished all of the mission style quests, completed 8 dungeons, and explored almost everywhere and only have 212 points.  I can see getting up to 315 (10 more dungeons and 3 more cartography points).  How in the world did you get so many Poki?!
 * I have 289 points right now. 17 dungeons, all main quests and maybe 90% explored. I thought someone mentioned you get 1 point for the norn shrine guys you fight. also if a hard mode comes out which seems likely as you dont get bounty past level 8, then you may get more points towards this title for things done in hard mode. Gandorf
 * Sorry, But I didn't count the Dungeons I did in the preview ^^; 225 Points now (found the last nook and cranny ;]). 7 Dungeons +4 Norn dungeons, -Fronis Lair = 10 dungeons done by me. Thats 100 points. The primary Missions give 80 points? 225-100-80=45... Still not right :/ &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 16:54, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
 * No idea still, at 291, just got 2 more points in cartography. I can see myself getting maybe 4 more cartography points by looking at my map. That means I have 170 dungeon, 80 primary and 41 cartography with 4 more points poitns me at 45, same as you have Poki. Gandorf
 * Hypothesis of mine - 180 points for dungeons + 80 points for primary quests + 50 points for mapping + 40 points for max norn, dwarf, asura and vanguard titles. Would fit with what people have seen with mapping giving around 45 points, would also make sense of discrepancies people have seen between points for mapping, if they have lots of points in the other titles, will verify and post what I find when I advance my next title.  --Ozien
 * Just checked, advanced from Asura Level 3 to 4, did not get a point, stayed at 221 points. --Ozien

ok i think i found out were these extra points are coming from. after the sneek peak weekend ended and eye of north start a lot of people said they got some sort of random point bonus like my friend who had done none of the dungeon suddenly had more than me and i had explored all of the far shiver peaks and did all 4 dungeons and then suddenly my friend who had barely explored anyhting and done nonoe of the duneons suddenly had more than me so im thinking it might be cuz of that

I've got 266 points, did 13 dungeons, finished story and I'm pretty confident I've got the whole map. So 266 - 110 dungeons, - 80 quests = 76 cartography? Seems like a weird number. Showb1z 06:37, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm now at 296 with only Kathandrax and the elite dungeon to go. So assuming the 80 for primaries is correct i'm 99% sure the maximum for exploration is 76. Showb1z 17:59, 5 September 2007 (CDT)

New title track box for your userpage
See Template:Eye_of_the_North_mastery_title

max out of range?
Seeing as how the caculations add up to 350points(R3), and the max title is 750points(R6) how do we progress beyond R3?--Patch 18:51, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Dont know who added that info but without proof we dont know what is after rank 3. Gandorf
 * Yes, it looks to me as if 315 points is about the max that one can get right now (170 from the dungeons, 80 for the missions, and 65 for cartography--or however it breaks down exactly). That puts rank 3 out of range by 35 points.
 * I doubt the title will max until HM comes out, but you never know. Giving more points for doing all in HM is not out of consideration. --Ozien
 * I have 302 points as of now, all 18 dungeons, all main quests and I cant see there being more then a few points in missing map on my screen. Gandorf
 * I have exactly 300 now. I scraped the borders of the areas, and I am missing Slavers'. That would make 310. Seems to me, 350 are not possible right now, unless you get points from somewhere else. -- Yu 08:06, 6 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm exactly there as well, all dungeons done except for Slaver's (beaten Thommis and Selvetarm levels though), all primary quests done, and explored everywhere (i'm Legendary GMC so i know i did)... only 300 points. The article says we can get to 315... if that's true, then Slaver's gives 15 points instead of 10 200.153.141.51 19:44, 8 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I have 305 and only Slaver's to do, so that's a no. You ether miraculously missed a primary mission, or are missing 5 exploration points. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 20:39, 8 September 2007 (CDT)


 * GMC doesn't count GW:EN... --84.24.206.123 11:21, 9 September 2007 (CDT)

he was merely pointing out that he is experienced in cartography not that GMC gives points towards this title track. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.84.136.98 (contribs).

Any real use?
Title as the title, but does it have any real practical use like the Norn/Asura/Deldrimor/Ebon titles? --Cosmitz 23:00, 4 September 2007 (CDT)

the same amount of use as cartograpy and protecter guardian

Keeping track of quest and dungeon points

 * 1) Because they are completed simultaneously and the reward is received automatically, the three travel unlock quests cannot be isolated from The Beginning of the End.
 * 2) Listed as Oola's Laboratory in the Hero's Handbook.
 * 3) Listed as Ooze Den in the Master Dungeon Guide.
 * 4) This dungeon has since been updated to provide 10 points.

Here's a table to keep track of which quests and dungeons give points, and how many points each quest or dungeon gives. Quests which show up in the Hero's Handbook are marked in bold. -- Gordon Ecker 16:04, 5 September 2007 (CDT)


 * I checked after every dungeon except Snowmen, Fronis and Heart of Shiverpeaks and got 10 for each one. Gandorf
 * Snowman lair doesn't give mastery points.--[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 19:34, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Did anyone bother to check whether they had gotten points for completing Glynt's Challenge for the first time? It spawns a "dungeon"-chest, too. -- Yu 04:10, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
 * You don't. Showb1z 06:17, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Did you actually check for it or is this some sort of it-has-to-be? -- Yu 07:36, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * People, including myself, would have noticed. Showb1z 04:22, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm certain I did not ask whether people checked for your statement, but you yourself. If you did not check, then it is speculation. And speculation without proof is pointless. -- Yu 07:33, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

Current max is 316, stop editing it...


316 max, 101 for cartography, stop reverting it every time... Showb1z 19:50, 9 September 2007 (CDT
 * Why the heck does Anet keep doing this!? Release a title which we have no way to be able to max! It's the Sunspear Promo Point fiasco all over again!! Guess we're just going to have to wait another ~6 months before cen finish this one. :| --Wolfie [[Image:Wolfie_sig.jpg|19px]] (talk|contribs) 20:48, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Sunspear title actually does something. This is totally useless. It just shows that you have "beat" EotN. I mean, I guess if you care about the Protector and Guardian title tracks, then this would annoy you. But come on...unless it has a skill or other effect linked to it, I am not complaining yet. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 20:51, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
 * people like to look "impressive" with big titles the fact that ithas no benifit is why not any people will go for maxing this over dwarf and why the people that will max this want to (its rare therefore "cool").
 * if all titles did something, GW would become WoW-esque (a.k.a. grind) &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Skakid9090 (contribs). 21:59, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
 * You mean GW isn't grind already? News to me >.> [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 22:03, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
 * touche &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Skakid9090 (contribs). 18:43, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * No, it isn't really. Yes, if you want all the nice titles you have to grind. But you can also just screw all that and sit back and enjoy the game quietly. In WoW, you can't really enjoy the game until AFTER hours upon hours of grinding.24.186.207.198 15:40, 19 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Floating max now at 320? I have successfully completed Legendary Cartographer and am no stranger to wall hugging.  I think its time for the people who have squeezed out 5(?) extra points to please reveal the secret.  In particular when compared to the map found here:(warning 11mb)http://tcfish.teutonictemplar.com/map/gwen_map.jpg  (The author has noted he hasn't actually explored this) The spine area between Grothmar Wardowns and Dalada Uplands does not seem possible to completely reveal nor does the waterfall section in between Riven Earth and Arbor Bay.  Once again if you know the secret please share.
 * That map isn't "explored". It's just a map with disabled fog from pre-pre-release. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 11:12, 24 September 2007 (CDT)
 * My concern was really the reverts here between 316/320 as the max but I appreciate the map info. After checking the discussion page over at the official wiki I can see that the 101st point is redundant and obtained through essentially multiple quest bugs.  The main title page really should indicate that the reasonable maximum for cartography is in fact 100 points with the extra point a redundant holdover (so you don't have to get every single nook and cranny) much like the other cart titles.
 * Yeah, I also think the 101's point is a bit bugged :P That's why I leave my character at 100. Thought I regret that I can't map the big fossil something-or-other in the Charr homelands, just like I ave a hole in the mountains of Shing Jea island... &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 15:46, 24 September 2007 (CDT)

I have 322 points and I am missing Kathandrax, so 316 is not max, 15:32, 02 October 2007 (PDT)
 * Well, they just changed it so that Secret Lair of the Snowmen and some other dungeon now count towards the title, so I'm not surprised that you can go over 316 now.--[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 22:34, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

remaining points
is it possibe the last of the points could be gained from completeing each monument in hall of monuments by complete i mean max koabd title all destroyer weps 4 heroes with upgraded armor lvl 20 pet all mini pets (or most aloud) etc?.
 * The time/resources involved in maxing all Monuments, especially with the Destroyer weapons and all r9+ titles included so far would be way too involved. I doubt Anet would put an expansion title track that would require such lengths to max out. Henry of Navarre.
 * Maybe you can get the missing points by maxing other title tracks. THis way you really have to do anything in GWEN to be "Master of the north"
 * The remaining points will be earned in hard mode. Whenever that will be... Showb1z 07:54, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Has anyone tried exploring the dungeons in order to get points? 145.94.74.23 02:41, 12 September 2007 (CDT)
 * People, including myself, would have noticed if we had recieved MotN points whilst running around dungeons I expect. -arual 12:17, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

More points in last update
I went from 316 to 336. I'm guessing 20 points got added for Snowmen and Fronis? Showb1z 00:11, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Nope, it's from doing the mini-mission from the Encrypted Charr Battle Plans. - Some guy

Er.. I think your still wrong Some guy. My points jumped like everyone else and I have not done the Encrypted Char Battle Plans quests. Have a feeling Showb1z is right about the jump about it being for those two dungeons 152.8.182.110 01:21, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

To see for myself, I just did Fronis' dungeon with my Rit. Yup, it turns out that I got 10 mastery points for it. So it is that the 2 "joke" dungeons are not worth something after all. I thought maybe those mini-missions would be worth doing =/.

Someones claiming you can get 351 points through the special ops missions, yet fails to come up with the 4th rank, and at the special ops page people are saying you don't get points for it... Reverting. Showb1z 11:34, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I just tried doing Irontoe to get the Master of the North points, but didn't get any. I had already done it in preview weekend and repeated a few times. I even tried with a new dungeon book and still no more points.--Cherno 01:55, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * You already got them when the update went live. They were added retro-actively.213.119.59.106 08:15, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

any1 knows when hard mode is released?
no title from GWEN is maxable yet... its been more then a month sense the realease of GWEN and it got a bit boring after finishing all quests, missions and dungeons. is it possible that hard mode will be released only AFTER the bonus mission pack?(Ts healer 11:24, 2 October 2007 (UTC))
 * anything is possible --SLeeVe 11:36, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Could be a while considering they have to make some dramatic adjustments and can't just throw the standard +2-4 levels 33-50% HCT/HSR/IAS/Movement formula on mobs who are already geared towards level 20 players. My guess is November at the earliest and I would be shocked and disappointed if they couldn't produce the content for 18 dungeons and 15 explorable areas by Thanksgiving.


 * Ofcourse they can. Ever heard of UW? Lol, few 100 dmg a hit from an Aatxe, gg. Or worse: Smites --[[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (s)talkpage 18:34, 4 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The UW is acknowledged elite content, its not even close to the scale of what HM could potentially bring here with mobs having triple professions (read: Malfunctioning Golem, Summit Dreamer) or 2 elite skills or speced 20 attributes. The Aataxe at least doesn't have to bend the very rules of GW to hit hard and FYI if a gimmicky monk or necro can solo them with relative ease...its not challenging.

no points for a title rank... but is that same for rank5 asura/norn/dwarf/ebon ?
Hi, actually i have 315 points (missing Orr and Elite dungeons), already has re-cleared most of the area but 3, so still a little chance one point is still missing with one of those 3 area i've already cleaned... But me and a friend noticed something... i got all of my gwen faction title rank5 (or more) but not the Norn one... and have 1 point missing, and my friend got 2 of them rank 4... and have 2 points missing... and for both just a few Asura area to clean again... A rank in those titles doesn't give a point... but does anyone test for the rank 5 that provide armor npc ? i'm gonna try tomorrow to confirm/unconfirm that... to totally confirm i should get my last 3.800 non points with books... but don't have any Galimka 20:41, 3 October 2007 (UTC) (forgotten to tell that when i had my 315th points... i've reached rank5 ebon in the same "10 minutes" that's why i ask and gonna test tomorrow... )Galimka 20:46, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * the extra point for cartography is due to multiple quest bugs and a mapping redundancy used in all GW content so you don't have to get every single nook and cranny, you can read all about it here

the rest of the points are for doing the quests and dungeons in hard mode!?!
if you look from any tyrian outpost (I saw it from lions arch) on the GWEN map you will see that the dungeons and primary quests you already done are in their undone picture-and a bit more red. what makes me believe that the title would be at list one more tier above the 350 points. and wonder how the hell am I (or anybody) supposed to do all this tough, 1.5-2 hours dungeions in hard mode. also we can see the similarity to the protector/guardian titles in the other campaigns. what makes me also guess the even more points will come from vanquishing the explorable areas. anyway for those who want to max the title (like me) anet makes sure we will have some hard time doin it.Ts healer 13:31, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Lol. 1.5-2 hours? are you KIDDING ME? 2 hours is a decent completion time for doing the entire Slaver's Exile Dungeon. sure. The rest? 30-45 mins tops. Maaaybe 1 hour for frostmaw, it is 5 levels after all. I'm pretty damn sure i'll have no trouble at all doing everyth in HM. Perhaps you need better teams/builds? :) NightAngel 13:55, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I think the OPs point was ANET is moving away from casual gamers and pandering towards Southeast Asia more and more with Guild Wars content. Not everyone wants to dedicate huge blocks of time to completing what should be attainable goals in casual gameplay. Its a valid complaint and one I agree with.
 * Hard mode and titles weren't designed for casual gamers. Chu [[Image:Chuiu Me Icon.png|Chuiu]] 19:31, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I would agree with you, since I have all the HM titles, except none of these new titles are solely HM based whereas Guardian/Vanquisher you knew what you were getting going in. The titles in the expansion should be attainable through casual gameplay but since thats not the direction ANET has chosen ala Korean-grind-fest there is no other option left but to slug it out through more repetitive content in GW:EN HM.  I just hope they are taking this time to seriously consider balance issues that are bound to come up.