Talk:Gate of Madness (mission)

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Discussion
"The distance at which you'll aggro him is roughly radar range minus twice the width of the shaded annulus on the perimeter of your radar."

What? (T/C) 00:47, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Huh...? --Gimmethegepgun 00:48, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Theres a shaded bit on the very edge of your compass, look in game.--[[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg]]îğá†ħŕášħ 00:49, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * See page history. I don't like teh language because aggro is usually talked about in relation to teh aggro bubble. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 01:02, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * About 2.5 times--[[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg]]îğá†ħŕášħ 01:03, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * k thx [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 02:44, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * So is this actually larger than spirit range? --◄mendel► 07:34, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * It's much easier to eyeball double the length of the shaded annulus than 2.5 times the aggro bubble range. Being able to eyeball the distance pretty precisely can help, as if you run forward too fast, you aggro both at once.  If you start inching slowly too far back, you might waste 5 minutes on it.  Quizzical 08:48, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I think the operational word is "shaded annulus", because almost no one knows firstly what an "annulus" is (and can't be bothered to look it up), and also because I don't think people even know that it exists. I look at teh radar all the time, but I never really noticed how the shadow remains a constant and could be used for measuring until Giga said here and I thought about it somewhat.
 * If there was some other landmark, either on the compass or visually, that could be used that would work just as well. My main concern was that with the language used it would be hard for most typical players to understand what was being talked about. Aggro bubble, on the other hand, is hard not to know; I don't think it is too hard to conceptualize of 2.5 times the bubble.
 * I mean, whatever is easiest is fine by me. I understand the importance of accuracy too. I think what would help most is a screenshot demonstrating exactly how far away to be (by drawing on the compass) [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 09:02, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

HM Solo Walktrough (Mission & Bonus)
Maybe the only NF mission that I had to restart 5 or 6 times, so as there's no real tip on how to do it HM solo, I'll write this guide.

Heroes setup: Henchmen setup: Kihm, Mhenlo, Herta, Eve
 * Gwen/Domination/key skill: VoR, Backfire, Empathy, misc interrupts & e-management
 * Olias/Curse/key skill: SS, rest mostly the same as curse sabway
 * Sosouke/Fire/key skill: SF nuker

You setup: key skill: Unyielding Aura (even if you're not monk, it's a life saver -> insta rez, full life, full-e and stoopid hench won't waste time in a middle of a fight to rez), pain inverter, lightbringer gaze, seed of life.

Make your way to temple, just pay attention to pop-ups and madness titan (from titan abomination -> Pain Titan) which could easily wipe a party in HM. The displayed map in mission section is probably not the most easiest way (after you've defeated the 2 first abomination titan go right, kill 2 more titan then torment claw, then a group of margonite, go left [beware pop-ups], go up, at the next 2 torments claw, go up, kill 3 scythe of chaos, continue up, when you trigger the dialog of shiro, come back down).

Close the 5 chaos rifts: easiest way is to pull the portal wraith with a longbow (NB. while rift is not closed margonite will respawn regularly -> kill the annoying ones, then go for wraith).

Shiro, the Lich & the Bonus: flag all heroes & hechies in "U" just to the door of the entrance. Pull Shiro FIRST !!! (Lich is easy to kill and won't follow you while attuning the altar). Use pain inverter to defeat Shiro (+VoR & SS, I didn't micro managed my heroes), you should expect 2 to 6 death amongst your AI fellows (but much more if you didn't flagged them correctly). Start attuning shrine from left to right, flag your heroes in the middle of each shrine, run with them, and if one is killed by the lich dismiss unyielding aura to rez (NB. as the lich won't follow, you shouldn't encounter much problems). DeoX 00:21, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The reason why this mission doesn't have an extensive hard mode section is that hard mode doesn't change much about the mission. The tactics that work in easy mode work just fine in hard mode, too.  The point of a hard mode section is to warn players who know how to beat the mission in easy mode of adjustments that they'll have to make or things that may catch them off guard in hard mode.


 * If you're relying on unyielding aura to rez, you're doing something seriously wrong. You might take a death or two here or there, especially against the pairs of titan abominations, but it's nothing that simple rez signets can't handle.


 * It's really not that hard of a mission, especially compared to other hard mode missions. I rated it #21 in difficulty, out of 57 hard mode missions in the campaigns.  (I exclude Augury Rock from my ratings because it varies too wildly by class.)  If I were to go strictly by my empirical results, I'd rate it as quite a bit easier still.  Quizzical 00:41, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Hard mode has always been easier than normal mode, at least for me. Shiro attacks faster, thus dies faster.--Darksyde  01:14, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Unyielding Aura Vs Rez signet -> you waste one elite but save 1 slot by hero (plus it's insta rez and tteleport to your location -> very usefull for bonus). Well not too hard once you know setup and what to do, but it's the mission that I had to restart the most in NF in order to probe builds and tactics at the end (btw. still amongst top 3 NF most difficult with Moddok & Dzagonnur when soloing / Every Canthan mission are freakin easy / only proph had a few quite hard mission where I was forced to team). Darkside, I would say Vs Shiro nm & hm are barely the same, die slower in nm but hit harder in hm... DeoX 01:45, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * If you've got no stance-ending skill, you're basically taking on Shiro by hoping to get lucky. That's not a strategy.  If you need a strategy that reliably works (both in easy mode and in hard mode), try reading the article.  Quizzical 03:44, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * You never have to engage Shiro in melee, and thus can kill him with totally random whatever-you-want skills...although that method is very slow. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:47, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Well I guess there is that approach, too, but it's not the one described above. Quizzical 06:18, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Shiro is easy regardless of difficulty level.--Darksyde  17:32, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * If you're relying only on hexes to kill Shiro without taking any defensive measures, you're taking a big risk. Impossible Odds sheds hexes, so if his attacks get 200 lifestealing, he has no hexes on him, and you don't have any way to end Battle Scars, you could wipe rather quickly.  Quizzical 18:36, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Alternative bonus method
Someone has added an alternative way to do the bonus that relies on killing Shiro first. If one were to assume that the Lich follows you around on the bonus just like Shiro, the strategy would be absurd. It's pretty easy to kill the Lich first, and much harder to kill Shiro first. The lich tends to hit harder, too, at least if you're comparing their plain attacks. Shiro's skills don't matter if you're not hitting him.

The claimed benefit of the strategy is the Lich not following you into the shrines. How effective is that? If first setting foot in a shrine (or at least getting the whole party into it) makes the Lich turn back immediately, the strategy could be pretty effective. If it takes going all the way back to the far corner to sometimes get the Lich to turn back, but isn't reliable or hampers your fight against the margonites, then the strategy is a waste. Quizzical 17:32, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The whole point is the Margonites are pretty darned easy compared to everything else. Shiro, being melee, will follow you relentlessly (unless you use the spirit trick described in the walkthrough), while the Lich, being ranged, not so much.  And so long as your healers are competent, the few licks the lich does get in won't matter one bit... and neither will charging to the back of the shrine to break his aggro.  Lich takes a heck of a lot more damage from you and yours, as well... frankly the easier fight to end is more enjoyable.  Besides... don't knock it til you try it!  :P PyroMage13187 21:26, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * He has tried it, though, as have many people. It's just generally better to take out the Lich first unless you've specifically got the skills for Shiro, cause in that case it doesn't matter one bit. :\ [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 22:00, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, this whole point is rather moot, if you think on it. Depending on primary class/build/style of play, either one could be easier for an individual player.  I've personally done it both ways, had no probs with either, and had Master's every time.  It comes down to let the players choose, and to each their own...  So let's find something more fun to nitpick, like which is the bigger hinderance to a party throughout factions- Togo or Mhenlo?  :D PyroMage13187 22:15, 30 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't see why Lich being ranged is an advantage over Shiro being melee. The first bonus strategy is to keep Shiro weakened, in which case, he won't do much damage to you at all.  While one can theoretically do the same to the Lich, that he will stay back firing with ranged attacks could easily mean that a hero that is supposed to weaken him while flagged in the shrine could be out of range.  Ordering the hero to attack the Lich in particular could lead to the hero running off and grabbing the Lich and dying alone, or pulling the Lich back to the group, either of which would be bad.
 * I don't doubt that the alternative strategy can be made to work. If the Lich doesn't reliably break aggro and leave you alone entirely pretty quickly once you're in the shrines, though, it would pretty much invariably be harder to use than the first strategy listed.  In that case, there isn't any reason to list it at all; it would be saying, here's what you could do if you wish to make the mission harder for yourself.
 * So the question again, which you didn't answer so far, is how reliably does the Lich break off aggro once you get into the shrines? How far in do you have to go to break aggro?  And does easy mode versus hard mode make a difference here?  As for trying it myself, I don't want to spend an hour to try out a dubious strategy.  Indeed, it would take quite a bit longer than that, since I'd have to refamiliarize myself with the controls of a game I haven't played in about six months.  Quizzical 22:40, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I haven't done this recently either, but I have tried killing Shiro first, and as I recall the Lich did not always disengage from the group, even when moving back into the shrines. Either way, the one that is left alive is attacking the party during the fight for the shrines, and the Lich does more damage there. Also, the shrine bonuses are not worth much fighting the Lich due to how weak he is. The current walkthrough for this alternate method could probably be cut down a bit, as the tactics are essentially identical to killing Shiro first.67.240.83.137 15:57, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Flagging H/H for free bonus
I am pretty sure this doesn't work anymore. After initiating Shiro's speech to open the gates, I sent the H/H in to go capture the shrines. But, this activated the Lich's dialogue, which spawned the portals and other monsters, and they were wiped shortly after that. Am I missing something? (T/C) 05:56, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, this most certainly does not work. I even tried moving out of radar range and then dying just to make sure I was out of range, and the H/H triggered the dialogue. I wonder when they fixed this... :\ I guess that's what I get for trying to cheat. (T/C) 06:44, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

The Video
This Video: * There is also a Youtube guide for this mission: Gate of Madness run/guide -- ◄mendel► 13:24, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to start banning anyone who re-adds that horrible video again. Not only on the grounds of (extended) GW:1RV violations, but also because it is obviously the same person(s)/socking/spamming links to external sites/inserting terribad advice/what have you. (You may note that the exact same words were used in each posting of the video.)

Alternatively, I could protect the page from anon edits, but that seems excessive. (T/C) 12:20, 15 March 2009 (UTC)