Talk:Shiro Tagachi/Archive 1

Cowardly?
Where/what is written about him showing him to be a coward? -PanSola 08:21, 11 March 2006 (CST)


 * It's in the manual PanSola, I missed your note. You can see on the history page who posted the info, just ask me on my talk page if I have not responded. Reverting. Take it up with ANet. --Karlos 21:06, 22 March 2006 (CST)
 * Well, I see three options:
 * 1. Include in the description some cowardly traits of Shiro.
 * 2. Remove "cowardly" from his description, consider the description of him mentions nothing that suggests cowardness. Unless you are somehow obliged to quote the manual word for word.
 * 3. Add the sentence "It is also unknown why he is considered a coward."
 * If #1 is not possible then I'd rather pick 2 over 3. The way it's written now seems to expect the reader already know him to be a coward, which is not true. -SolaPan 21:13, 22 March 2006 (CST)
 * And I'm not sure whether you mean "The manual said he's a coward", or "The manual described some cowardly action of Shiro." -SolaPan 21:14, 22 March 2006 (CST)
 * I think that in the Eastern cultures, one definition of a traitor is a coward because he does not have the quality to have allegiance, choosing the cowardly way out. In this case, I would believe that killing a "helpless" charge is also cowardly. Also, in some eastern cultures the Emperor had the Mandate of Heaven, so if Shiro could not find the strength to follow the path of Heaven, he would be a coward. --Ravious 22:20, 22 March 2006 (CST)


 * The cowardly thing he did (in my eastern-but-not-so-far-eastern culture) is he killed an unarmed man who entrusted him with his life. Where I come from you tell the person you can longer work as their bodyguard and then challenge them, not use your most trusted position as a tool to "cowardly" strike down your foe.
 * Anyways, the sentence is verbatim from the book. Aside from that, you seem to be the only challenging that what he did was a very cowardly act. So, in addition to the options above I would like to add:
 * 4. Leave it as is because it's fairly clear what "cowardly" deed the sentence is referring to and it's very clear that ANet plans to keep it cowardly (i.e. we didn't discover he found out the Emperor was a drug dealer) because they called it cowardly. --Karlos 04:40, 23 March 2006 (CST)
 * A)lol and B) shiro thought the emporer was going to assassinate him because of the fortune tellers prediction so "psychotic" and "Paranoic" might be more true than cowardly &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.128.130.13 (contribs).

section 0 vs History
I find them highly redundent in nature, though vary in the detail they include. Does anyone oppose me merging the info into one single narration? -SolaPan 15:49, 25 March 2006 (CST)


 * I do. I wrote it this way specifically to separate the lore and history and fairy tale from the stuff that interests the average Joe who wants to farm and want sot quickly know who this Shiro guy is. They use this style a lot in wikipedia and I like it. If you look up most terms, you will find a quick basic summary that tells you what that term is and then there will be sections going into great detail about all things related. I believe we should do this with any concept or character we are talking about. --Karlos 21:43, 25 March 2006 (CST)

Is Shiro a Kurzick?
Image captured from the cinematic trailer.

I find it a reasonable conjecture. -SolaPan 16:03, 25 March 2006 (CST)


 * Why do you say that? --Karlos 21:44, 25 March 2006 (CST)


 * Maybe that pic isn't clear enough, but overall his face seems to have the same Kurzick aspect (white-ish with patterns). And those are definitely not necro scar patterns.   ... thus I suppose they could be regular scars.  Anyways his face looks relatively white in other shots from the cinematic too, at least to me. -SolaPan 09:01, 26 March 2006 (CST)


 * Hmmm, the marks on the face seem similar to Kurzick marks, but his whiteness and their "paleness" are different. They are mostly "grey" in color. We could put a note that he "looks" somewhat Kurzick. --Karlos 18:37, 26 March 2006 (CST)


 * I don't belive Shiro to be anything specific other than a canthan. The marks on his face are from battle scars they are not elaborate designs like the Kurzicks use on their faces.--The King Tarosian 01:26, 2 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I think he may have been de-gothed to make it clear that he's not a Kurzick or a Necromancer after all that "Shiro's a Necromancer" and "Shiro's a Kurzick" speculation that followed the release of the video. Too bad, I think black would've suited him better than red, and red's already been done by the Lich Lord. -- Gordon Ecker 19:58, 24 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Shiro is clearly Assasin/Ritualist. He uses sould binding powers in a cuple of misions and binds souls to all those Shiro'ken and constructs. And all the things show that he was just another Canthan like Nika. Even his name do not follow the classic greek or german-like names of Luxon and Kurzick. He also wears in gold and red, even before becoming the Emperor bodyguard. Mithran 13:20, 16 November 2006 (CST)

I seems pretty obvious from the in-game cinimatics that Shiro lives in Kaineng City. Also there were no Kurzicks or Luxons before Archemorus and Viktor(and Vizu) Killed Shiro.--Coloneh RIP 22:01, 1 December 2006 (CST)
 * Well, according to the manual and other game text, the vassal factions existed definitely before the Jade Wind. They were just different in terms of what they did. Luxons were seafarers, for example, while Kurzicks, well, lived in a real forest. You're right that Shiro is, however, aesthetically Canthan: he has a very Asian-inspired look to his gear rather than a Luxon or Kurzick style. The name, too. Kaineng City and Shing Jea NPCs have Asian or faux-Asian names and Luxons and Kurzicks generally don't. Most definitely not a Kurzick. The suggestion otherwise was back when nobody knew anything about him. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 18:30, 2 December 2006 (CST)
 * no...there definately were luxons and kurzicks b4 Archemorus and Saint Victor...they were the 2 leaders of the luxon and kurzick factions...infact, they wanted peace between the 2 factions -Trey
 * Kurzick or not, that man has fabulous hair. 201.174.197.61 21:28, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Profession
Between Warrior and Assassin, if one is going to get removed, I would remove Warrior instead of Assassin. Currently the only evidence he may be warrior, according to info I had exposure to, is the fact that a Shiro's Sword exists. On the other hand, the weapon we actually saw him using are daggers, and his attack style fit closer to that of an assassin rather than a warrior.

Thus I have added the assassin profession back. -PanSola 00:59, 1 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Care to share your reasons for thinking he is an assassin, I cannot think of one, and while you did mention them up there, you did not say what they were. On the flip side, Shiro uses two SWORDS (not daggers) as evident by his sword available in the game and requiring 15 Swordsmanship (implying he was a super warrior). His skills are those of superman so it's not easy to read from them anything. There is a Riposte stance a double strike attack a life stealing stance and the Shiro bomb plus banishment. In addition, his size, his fighting style in the cuscene, the fact that he is a body guard, all those suggest that he is a warrior.
 * Please share with us your reasons for believing he is an assassin. --Karlos 03:04, 1 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Um, Shiro's Blades is a weapon that require 15 daggery mastery. That is (appearantly, no hard proof) the weapon that he killed the old emperor with, the weapon that he got killed by, and the weapon he used when players faced him.  Plus one of his skills shadowsteps him all over the place.  Those are the primary reasons for me to believe him to be an Assassin.  At least a secondary, though I'm more inclined to consider him an Assassin primary.  -PanSola 03:07, 1 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I was oblivious to the existence of these blades. I saw the sword myself, but didn't bother look at Assassin stuff. The shadow stepping was not that big of a deal because even Eles can now shadow step, so it's not confined to Assassins. --Karlos 04:02, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Heh, what is the Ele shadowstepping skill? The quick reference list isn't updated with Factions stuff yet, and Shadow Step hasn't been updated to reflect the ele skill(s).  My impression (based on what I read in interviews pre-release, so not surprised that I'm wrong on this) was that Eles would need to take Assassin as secondary to do the teleport-PBAoE trick. -PanSola 04:14, 1 May 2006 (CDT)

He as an Assassin and has no relevance to warriors. The only reason a 'Shiro's Sword' exists is because Archie Mouse and St. Victoria each picked up one of his daggers and used them as one would use a sword. He is an Assassin because he Shadows Steps, which at the time of release no other profession could do (minus RIde the Lightning), he assassinated emporer Whatever his name was and wields two smaller sword like things in each hand. Nothing else that looks like a sword but smaller is held in two hands. 88.104.73.3


 * Umm no.... Ride the Lightning is an ele teleport skill..


 * BTW, a critique on your support of him being warrior (though I'm not really interested in arguing him NOT being warrior, just pointing out what I perceive as flaws in your arugment):
 * 1. Size. I do not believe there is a precedent in GuildWars where warrior are bigger than other prfoessions, assume same level and same general 3D model.  Ie, a Level 24 White Mantle Warrior boss may be big, but no bigger than a Level 24 White Mantle Ranger Boss.  A Level 24 Stone Summit Beastmaster boss might be much much bigger than a level 24 stone summit ranger boss, but that's the size of the beast, and when compared to a Level 24 Doyak-riding Monk boss, they are on the same scale again.  So Shiro's size, no matter how big he actually his, does not constitute an argument that suggests his profession.
 * 2. Bodyguard. In GuildWars there is actually a precedent of bodyguards NOT being warriors.  Namely, the GvG bodyguards who are E/Mo (or Mo/E, can't really tell).  In terms of outside the guildwars world, Ninjas are also a very viable choice for Bodyguards.
 * Again, not trying to start a debate on whether Shiro is a warrior or not (I'm happy enough having him classified as W/A). Just pointing out that two (out of many) of your arguments are rather weak. -PanSola 04:29, 1 May 2006 (CDT)


 * You love to argue even when the argument is won. :( Human warriors in the game are bigger than everyone else in terms of muscles and size, he's huge. I was referring to the rest of the Imperial Guards being warriors. --Karlos 05:16, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
 * It's not that I like to argue. I'm just interested in getting the details and technicalities straight, regardless of the bigger picture. -PanSola 05:25, 1 May 2006 (CDT)

Why do we even need to give him a proffesion? He dosent use any of their skills so it shouldnt matter, just put him as a boss. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.7.166.165 (contribs).

I'm tilting towards Sin on this one. Shadow Stepping, Double Striking and Shiro's Blades are enough to convince me tbh. Finrod

Probably just an Assassin / Warrior  so he can have his superior dagger rune for his daggers and put his swordsmanship to 9 for his sword &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.50.197.53 (contribs).


 * That dinky sword of his also has a 15 req - and it is theorized that enemies can get ranks up as high as 20, meaning that runes probably don't feature into this at all. Incidentally, somebody added a note that Shiro may be a Necro-primary because of the "Soul Reaping" he may or may not be doing in the cinematic trailer (which I'll delete in a second, I'm against speculation on an article-page). I find that highly unlikely, but then, he does use life-stealing via Meditation of the Reaper and Battle Scars. Of course, you could also argue that he's a Ritualist, given that he can create Bound Spirits, which seems equally far-fetched to me. Truth be told, I don't think he belongs to any "regular" class at all; like Kuunavang and Glint he well belongs in a league of their own. --Black Ark 06:15, 14 August 2006 (CDT)

he IS lvl 31 you know and he isnt just any monster.

He's a W/A that uses Daggers, end of story
 * No, kannxai is a War/Ass because he uses axes and looks like a warrior. This guy is just big, but he double strikes, he wields to big daggers which req 13 dag mastery and he shadowsteps around a lot and he has the ability to steal life(Not very warrior like). The Meditation skill is how he is /Rt and maybe even the banish skill is /rt but I am 100% sure they made this final boss to be an A/Rt. --The Gates Assassin 10:53, 9 September 2007 (CDT)

I'd say A/Rt... Play through Factions and take note of all of his appearances and you'll know why I think this.

The story of Shiro
It strongly reminds me of MacBeth (-: -PanSola 03:14, 1 May 2006 (CDT)


 * The last part (that by succeeding to return to mortal form, he made his own defeat, and ensuing Envoy punishment, certain) is so like the quote from Lady MacBeth: 'Tis better to be that which we destroy, then by destruction dwell in doubtful joy. :) --Karlos 04:28, 2 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Well the witches didn't mention Duncan trying to kill MacBeth, nor did the witches die. Still, I can see your point. Interesting idea. Silk Weaker 08:27, 13 July 2006 (CDT)


 * The stories of Factions and Prophecies nicely mirror each other. Prophecies follows the course of a self-fulfilling prophecy, the flameseeker prophecy, the very existence of which leads the Mursaat, out of fear, to inadvertently set in motion the events which cause it to be fulfilled. Thus, the very act of attempting to defy the prophecy causes it to come true. In Factions, Shiro's tale is of a man attempting to defy prophecy, and succeeding in the attempt, proving, to himself at least, that he truly posesses free will... --Sunyavadin 15:27, 3 August, 2006 (BST)


 * In Nightfall we learn that Shiro was not exactly the 'dogooder' type, but he was not an evil traitor. He was loyal to the emperor. But then the seer apeared to twist his mind. He became mad and his souls was tainted by Abaddon. Somethng alike happened to the original Vizier Khilbron. It's easy, you send some Titans to Tyria, they make the Charr attack Rin, Kryta and Orr, the Vizier burrows Orr alowng with the power to fight them (like the signets), while you distract the Zaishen with some demons and the Canthan with Shiro. He was a piece in Abaddons masterplan. Mithran 13:31, 16 November 2006 (CST)

Or he was Dhuum's pawn. I read that Menzies and Dhuum were working with Abaddon. Dhuum is Grenth's predecssor and a lot of things leading up to factions and in factions reek of the underworld and the powers associated with a former god of the underworld. The only problem is Dhuum hasn't shown up anywhere and up till recently was believed to be destroyed.--RedFeather 07:22, 6 March 2007 (CST)
 * Emissaries of Dhuum can be seen in the Torment, so he mey be still 'existing', how can you send emissaries if you can't move or talk or make any kind of signal? Mithran 06:48, 23 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I definitely agree with PanSola. His story is very blatantly inspired by MacBeth, in many ways. It kinda gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling. Spen 17:20, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

Levels
For curisity's sake, can someone list where/when he is Level 30, and where/when he is Level 31? Just wondering. -PanSola 03:57, 1 May 2006 (CDT)


 * He's 30 when first encountered in the Sunjiang District mission. He's just sitting there floating in a bubble, but you can walk up to him and pat him on the butt. Then he is 31 in the final mission. --Karlos 03:59, 1 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Anon reports lv31 in Sunjiang District. Does he appear twice with different levels, or has his level changed when first encountered? -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 12:49, 21 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Why change Shiro's level back to level "30~31"? If you target Shiro in the Sunjiang District mission you can see that he is level 31. If you find any places where he is level 30, then post them. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.63.111.203 (contribs).
 * I didn't change it back, I just asked the question. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 07:42, 23 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Foo changed it back, with the note "rv anon edit." Now, if the anon was mistaken, I could understand the revert.  However, in that case I would assume "rv incorrect edit" which did not occur.  So I am forced to conclude that Foo reverted simply because the user was anon.  This is a bad precedent. - Greven 12:27, 23 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Shiro is Level 31 in Sunjiang District. Didn't get to take a screenshot, but he was level 31. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 19:55, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

The profession debate again
I think his profession should be set to "unknown". He doesn't use any warrior or assassin skills, and his weapons are nothing to go by. A ritualist can wield daggers -- doesn't make her an assassin. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 09:09, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Well he makes great use of the Dagger Mastery attributes. | Chuiu 19:28, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
 * I don't know about him being warrior, but I definitely support the claim of him being an Assassin. -PanSola 21:58, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Doesn't use any assassin skills = not an assassin. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 00:52, 2 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Who but assassins are capable of shadow stepping? Karlos claimed Eles can, though I haven't found any ele skills that does it. -PanSola 01:18, 2 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Ride the Lightning Skuld  01:42, 2 May 2006 (CDT)
 * While both Ride the Lightning and Shadowstepping teleports people, Ride the Lightning specifically says "You ride the lightning to target foe", which invokes the aid of Dwayna; whereas Shadow step calls upon the powers of Lyssa. Shiro's skill specifically shadow steps, as opposed to just teleporting. -PanSola 01:57, 2 May 2006 (CDT)
 * This is a silly debate because it is not a given that anything that shadowsteps must be an assassin. It may just be his Envoy powers that he is using there, which should make his profession Envoy. That is, after all, the only thing about him that is confirmed. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 02:28, 2 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I see that Karlos sees fit to simply revert anything he dislikes. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 02:26, 2 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Only revert once please. That means no re-reverts until the issue is fleshed out.  Whether or not Karlos' reversion was appropriate, the re-reversion isn't helping the atmosphere for the discussion/debate.  Of course, now that it is re-reverted, everyone please refrain from re-re-reverting. -PanSola 02:41, 2 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Eh, now that it is re-re-reverted, I implore everyone to refrain from  re-re-re-reverting. -PanSola 02:44, 2 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Sorry about that, I was reverting the profession part, not the edit to his story. I did it while playing the game. :) Apologies again. Now, please leave the profession until you can explain how he is using weapons with req 15 in the professions but is NOT of those professions. This is what did it for me, this is how I said he is a warrior, this is how I was convinced by PanSola that he is an assassin. --Karlos 02:46, 2 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Simple. He is an Envoy. Do we have any clue what stats Envoys have? No. For all we know, he may have 16 in every attribute from every profession. It is simply conjecture at the moment that Shiro is a warrior or assassin. This is similar to the claim that the Titans are the Charr gods that many people believe, but being conjecture it is not reflected in this wiki. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 03:01, 2 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Shiro the human, the one you fight in the mission, is not an envoy. Next arguemnt. --Karlos 04:03, 2 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Proof that he is human? &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 04:04, 2 May 2006 (CDT)
 * I thought the whole point of trying to kill Emperor/Togo was to become a mortal human again...? -PanSola 04:23, 2 May 2006 (CDT)


 * He wanted to "return"/"break the curse". He never says he wanted to become human again. The Envoys are convinced that if he is not stopped then he will destroy the universe. Hard to believe a mere human can manage that. Anyway, I don't know what the point of this argument is as Karlos is convinced that he is right, by which license he feels free to mock me. So be it. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 04:34, 2 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I "live" again. What do you think that means? And he kept saying through the final mission that he is going to kick out butts and we killed him in 2 minutes and 42 seconds. I guess he and the envoys over-estimated his haxor powers. I was not mocking you, I posted a reply and an apology on my talk page regarding that. Finally, of course I think I am right, would you still be in this debate if you thought you were wrong? If you're going to pull a "Karlos thinks he's always right, there's no way I can win this debate" then I advise you to look at the profession debate. Pansola made a strong argument, I tossed the towel right away. And even if you can't beat me, I am not the wiki, and if more people agree with you or your logic, know that your edit will win in the end. --Karlos 05:27, 2 May 2006 (CDT)


 * There are many things that live that aren't human. Furthermore, the debate is whether Shiro retained his Envoy powers after he killed Togo or not. Clearly he has skills that no human possesses (that we know of). It doesn't freaking matter how fast you killed him (though 2:42 is way too long. Bring a KD/Gale warrior, a couple of Galers and an Earthbind and you can keep him on the ground for nearly all of th 1:30 ish it takes to kill him). The Envoys clearly believe that he is dangerous enough to destroy the universe. You haven't yet provided any answer as to how a human can do that. PanSola's and your arguments suffer from the same faults -- that you look at some incidental features (his blades, or that he shadow steps) and conclude that he must be X or Y. It might simply be that Shiro transcends the narrow professional boundaries normal people are subject to. You seem to believe strongly that he must be a warrior, but belief is not proof. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 05:58, 2 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Actually in my case, it's an "and". Eg. his daggers AND he shadowsteps.  I don't care whether he retains envoy powers or not.  I judge his profession by his weapon of choice and the style of his skills.-PanSola 06:30, 2 May 2006 (CDT)


 * You want me to prove to you that he returned to human form? You don't believe him? You think the ritual failed? You doubt Togo was really the Emperor's half-brother? His cousin twice removed? That would have been cool though, after he kills Togo, Togo's ghost says "Ha ha! I'm actually a descendant of King Adelbern and now you're going to come back to life as Prince Rurik! Cursed to an eternal life of cheesey one liners!" Wicked! :) --Karlos 04:32, 2 May 2006 (CDT)

Sorry to raise this zombie thread again, but in this instance I think I'm on Stabber's side. Shiro doesn't fit any standard profession template, and should therefore have his profession as Betrayer or some such. By the way, I don't agree with Stabber's retaliatory edit of Kuunavang to be R/E for the same reason. Neither would I ask for a profession to be stated for Glint. These are all characters that are not of any standard profession. F G 07:06, 7 May 2006 (CDT)
 * I still think weapon + skill charactics hold a lot of weight. For Kuunavang I have no problem with the E, though I don't see what would make her an R.-PanSola 15:47, 7 May 2006 (CDT)


 * That Corrupted Breath is a preparation, perhaps? F G 15:55, 7 May 2006 (CDT)

I'm resurrecting this again. The big argument for Shiro being an assassin is that he uses two swords. Swords. The manual calls them swords. They look like swords. He fights with them like swords, not little cutty/stabby knives. They're definitely used as swords when the two heroes try to wield them against Shiro. Even though the game engine says that Player Characters can only dual-wield daggers, the whole point of unique creatures like Glint or Shiro is that they break the rules (note all their crazy skills and immunities). It is not reasonable to say that Shiro must be using daggers simply because the game says you can only dual-wield daggers, despite the fact that his blades are long and are specifically referred to as swords.

Likewise, his entire interaction with Vizu, cursing her devious tricks and calling her a coward because she won't stand and fight, definitely doesn't peg him as a capital-A Assassin (as opposed to a lower-case-A assassin, which he is by virtue of having murdered the Emperor). The truth of the matter is that Shiro is a pretty direct guy in combat. He uses superior skill and overwhelming force to defeat his enemies in straight-on hand-to-hand battle. I wouldn't believe any Assassin would have been taken completely by surprise by Vizu's attacks.

Further, I think the labeling of unique bosses with professions is rather pointless. It's taxonomy for taxonomy's sake, without regard for the fact that calling him a Warrior or an Assassin says pretty much nothing useful about his abilities. He uses absolutely no skills form any profession. In addition, it's not like anti-warrior tricks are particularly effective against him (and, for that matter, Kuunavang's spells seem rather hard to interrupt and don't work with Mantras - pretty much none of the standard Elementalist-specific counters apply to her). Shiro is, above all else, a unique boss creature. His abilities have nothing to do with any of the PC professions and, taken together, don't lean in any particular way (Is Echoing Banishment anything like any warrior or assassin skill in terms of effects and flavor? How about Meditation of the Reaper?). To slap W/A or A/W or A or W or whatever on the page is simply disingenous, as it doesn't actually say anything about his nature of abilities, but makes it look like he is officially without-a-doubt a Warrior/Assassin, whereas the reality is that we're all just guessing wildly or splitting hairs to try to find some random reason why he would actually belong to any particular class. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 02:00, 15 June 2006 (CDT) )


 * I don't care much for putting a profession on him. However, when we had "Profession:Unknown" people were changing it to Warrior or Assassin all the time. Same thing for Kuunavang. I think we should just place a note that his profession is "speculated" and not a fact.
 * As far as your arguments, you are omitting that "Shiro's Blades" the set of dual-wielded swords are, in fact, daggers, not swords. And if your assassin wields them, he will look exactly like Shiro. --Karlos 05:14, 15 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Use "Profession: --" or "Profession: Special" or Profession: "Unique Boss" or whatever, then. The basic problem is just that "Unknown" invites people who think they "know" to change it. Whereas the real point is that his profession is, for all practical purposes, unknowable (or, if you prefer, irrelevant).
 * Shiro's Blade: I was trying to directly address that. Forgive me if it came out too clunkily. The fact is, Shiro's Blades are "Daggers" because of an artifact of the game rules, which says that only Daggers are dual-wieldable. Thus, to make a dual-wieldable sword item, the designers necessarily had to make it a Dagger. We can't say anything about them because there is also Shiro's Sword. Between that and their ridiculous requirements, I'd be hard-pressed to say these things are anything other than easter egg / gimmick items. He doesn't wield them like daggers. His interactions with Vizu indicate that he knows jack about being an Assassin. How does he dual-wield them, then? Well, everything about Shiro is about breaking the game (I mean, look at the skills - the way you beat him is that Kuunavang gives you game-breaking skills, too). Rules that apply to player characters, such as "all Daggers and only Daggers come in pairs", just don't affect Shiro at all. In order to turn his items into player-usable things, though, the rules have to be re-applied (if Shiro's Blades did a bazillion points of damage and were the only non-dagger weapon that could double-strike, would anyone who beat the game use anything else?). That's the main thing that makes Shiro's Blades a type of Daggers and, as I've seen no evidence to the contrary, it is the only reason they are Daggers.
 * Thus, Shiro is not an Assassin. You could argue that his profession should say "Warrior" because he is a lower-case-w warrior and defnitely acts like a big melee-focused bruiser, but, again, labeling him as such would be useless since he doesn't have an aura or use any warrior skills or drop any warrior green items or anything like that. Analysis of the game mechanics here yields nothing useful. I could just as easily make up silly arguments like "Shiro uses a skill called Riposting Shadows, but the other Riposte skills (the Deadly and Vanilla Ripostes) work only with a sword, so clearly he must be using swords. Oh, look, he dropped a sword!" Then someone else could say "But it's Riposting Shadows! Assassins use shadows!" &c. He just has no attributes that clearly mark him as anything. But the flavor here does clearly indicates that Shiro is not an assassin, and that should trump any game-mechanical argument based on a single attribute of a single weird item that works completely differently in your hands than it does in his. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 11:31, 15 June 2006 (CDT) )
 * For what it's worth, the GW Factions Prima guide has a "lore" section that clearly states Shiro is an Assassin: "A sharp-eyed Assassin named Vizu, who had arrived at the festival on the run from Am Fah thugs, took note of Shiro's exchange with the guards. She recognixed Shiro, of course; no Assassin in Cantha was unaware that one of their discipline protected the divine ruler of the empire." Also, "A master of the Assassin's disciplines, Shiro was Emperor Angsigyan's bodyguard..." --Kiiron 08:55, 11 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Sadly, Prima's mastery of fluff leaves much to be desired. We do know he was in a guild, however, as Togo mentions his guild symbol in-game. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 12:21, 19 July 2006 (CDT)
 * In a cut scene it says he is a warrior.--Killer of good 20:10, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
 * which? Besides I bet they just mean fighter. He WAS a body guard.--The Gates Assassin 10:56, 9 September 2007 (CDT)

Shiro's Fate
Damned to an eternity of being the most farmed creature this side of Rago Kindlerock! Dang! Those envoys are cruel. :) --Karlos 04:33, 2 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Not really. The end game items are not farmable as you get one per character and it takes about 20 hours of playtime to get a character there. About the most that's likely is that someone makes a bunch of +5e weapons to sell back in Tyria. But that will become unprofitable real fast, and people will stop doing it. The only other thing I can see is KD warriors figuring out that they can hench Shiro and start charging for "run"s. But, any player who just beat Raisu Palace can beat Shiro, so these runners won't find too many customers either, I don't think. To be honest, I am quite satisfied with the way they designed the endgame area. F G 07:11, 7 May 2006 (CDT)


 * The endgame area is really nice (and a HUGE improvement from simply getting teleported to Drognars), but I cant hide that I was a bit turned down by the fact that my party managed to kill the "super-mega-hyped-up" end-of-game boss in about 2 minutes on the first try. --Xeeron 07:37, 7 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Rumor has it that he was toned down to be henchable, as that's one of the goals anet has, is to make everything henchable. LordKestrel 09:37, 7 May 2006 (CDT)


 * He's not very henchable, unless you dedicate yourself to neutralizing his skills. I have seen that good parties kick his butt in 2 minutes and average or bad ones can keep grinding it out for 5-10 minutes. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Karlos (contribs).


 * I've henched him with my assassin under 2 mins. I'm pretty sure anyone can do it. --Theeth (talk)   05:31, 15 June 2006 (CDT)

Bad sentence
I went over and proofread this article, but this sentence has two problems, one of which I can't fix:
 * They arrive just in time, but when Master Togo approaches the throne, Shiro makes a surprise appearance, knocks everyone down, and abducts Togo to the Imperial Sanctum before anyone can react.

The flow is horrible and might be better off as two sentences. More jarring to me was that you don't "abduct someone to" somewhere. I haven't finished the game, so I can't figure out if it should be something like "abducts Togo and takes him to" or "flees to" or whatever. --68.142.13.105 11:19, 10 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Just so that this doesn't linger here forever without reply (yes, I know months have passed): You can, in fact, "abduct someone to somewhere". &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 22:20, 29 November 2006 (CST)

2-man Shiro Farming
A guildmate and I have evolved the following build that kills Shiro in between 1 and 1.5 minutes.

With Celestial Storm in one of the optional slots.

We bring six henchies (no monks), but they are completely unnecessary. The only reason we bring them is so that Shiro banishes one of them at the start, usually one of the henchie necros. Six other players would make this even easier.

What is the point, you ask? No point at all. 212.202.233.2 11:00, 25 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Wouldn't Price of Failure be better than Spirit of Failure in the necro build? You have no points in Inspiration... 85.227.10.132 11:33, 25 May 2006 (CDT)

This is not 2 man. Skuld  11:38, 25 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Yup, it's not 2-man if you have 6 other people serving as punching bags. I can solo any creature in the game, if only I had 7 punching bags with me. :) --Karlos 14:18, 25 May 2006 (CDT)


 * The question is... can it be done with just these two? I can see it if the necro is banished because the ele can get him back with a single Storm. If the ele is banished, it's gg. 149.9.0.25 14:37, 25 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Probably can be done with two, seeing as I can get halfway through with a solo mesmer. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Buzzer (contribs).

I'd like to see a real (henchless) two-man build. Spoil Victor would definitely be on one of the bars. Primary professions would probably depend mostly on which celestial skill you get. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 06:00, 12 December 2006 (CST)

Why should we want to farm shiro? he doesnt drop green items, and amulate can be obtained only once. the optinal should be the cele skill

to kill hem even faster, i use pain inverter + Spoil Victor + SS + Insideous Parasite, that gets him down even faster

Emperor's Hand/Blade?
On some webpages I've read claims that Shiro Tagachi was either "The Emperor's Hand" or "The Emperor's Blade". Do we have any ingame evidence for this, or any official word? - 04:56, 7 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I don't remember the exact words, but I think the emperor said he is making him his body guard or his "personal guard." --Karlos 05:02, 7 July 2006 (CDT)


 * He was a personal bodyguard as Karlos said, The Emporer's Hand, Voice & Blade are 3 very different things. I can't reference them off the top of my head but they are given descriptions in the manual. something like Emporer's Blade is when stern actions are needed, Voice is when reasoning is needed and Hand is when neither violance or reasoning will not be enough. --Jamie [[Image:Jamie.jpg|24px|(Talk Page)]] 05:23, 7 July 2006 (CDT)


 * That Tagachi was the emperor's bodyguard is mentioned clearly both in the game and in the manual. But I don't remember anything saying that Shiro had the title of the Emperor's Hand or Blade. (The discription of what The Emperor's Hand/Blade/Voice are can be found in the Emperor of Cantha article, copied (not verbatim) from the manual.) To me, the discription of the Emperor's Blade fits remotely with the job discription of a bodyguard, but it's not the same, and again, it's not mentioned anywhere in the game. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 08:29, 7 July 2006 (CDT)

Shiro's guild.
Just a note: I am quite certain that Togo refers to "the harbinger of the deceiver" and "the wicked", not "the Harbinger of the Deceiver" and "the Wicked". In other words, Togo thinks Shiro is wicked (no surprise there), not that Shiro was part of a guild called "the Wicked". We've since fixed this note already, but I feel we should explain it here lest someone try to fix it back. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 21:39, 3 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I removed that piece of trivia. Someone needs to play the game and actually look up terms before claiming something as truth.  Harbringer means "sign of", Shiro is called the deciever because he tricked the Emperor into trusting him and then cut him down.  Thus, the harbringer of the deciever, notice they are all lower cased, as in the cinema, is simply the sign of Shiro.  Furthermore, it says "the mark of the wicked", not in capital either.  In other words, Togo says that the symbol belongs to Shiro.  No where is his guild ever stated.

Shiro's Death
They find and kill Shiro, and the adepts of the Oracle of the Mists Suun seal his mortal form in jade. I think this is wrong. What I beleive happens at the end of the game is that the adepts merely form a protective bubble around him, something that reflects sound, and Shiro turns himself into Jade when he hears his own death scream, like 200 years ago when he causes the Jade Wind. You can clearly hear him start to scream. I'm not sure (which is why I didn't make the edit), but favor this over the written cause of his petrification for two reasons: 1. How could the adepts have the power to turn Shiro, even heavily weakened Shiro, into jade? He's too powerful for that. 2. This way is cooler. Starlight 22:30, 10 August 2006 (CDT)

Shrio incluenced by "outcast gd"
A statement on the guildwars Taiwan website stated that the evil force that is in Nightfall curropted Shiro. It is also reasonable to belive the same force invated the tombs, sent the grasps during the dragon festivel and even posibly corrupted the Lich Lord and destroyed Orr. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.192.188.142 (talk • contribs) 22:45, 26 August 2006 (CDT).
 * First of all, Vizier Khilbron destroyed Orr by means of reading the dark magic from the forbidden scrolls. Whether or not he was desparate to save his people, planned the Cataclysm, or was corrupted, we have no idea yet. It would be interesting if each story tied in though. Oh, and could you please sign your name for the sake of my curiosity and courtesy? [[image:ordinsig.gif]] Ordin 20:42, 7 September 2006 (CDT)


 * The Oracle in shiro's story is the link, I think, at least between Shiro and this Darkness. --Karlos 21:13, 7 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Once you make some quests in the torment, all is clear. Abaddon feared the chosen ones of the gods, because they where the only one capable of stopping him, so he set 'worldwide' plans to find them all and destroy them. Chosen ones appear on times of danger, so he: :::*Sent the titans to push the Charr to war. No more Kryta and Ascalon. Althought the Mursaat where a nuisance too.
 * Stone Summit where already taking care of Dwarves, so no problem about them.
 * The Vizier was also corrupted, and became the Lich Lord. No more Arah.
 * The Tomb of the kings became filled with Terror demons, having the Zaishen busy with that.
 * And Shiro became an 'akuma' himself, corrupted by the Fortune Teller, was the plan to have the powerful Canthan Empire busy.
 * Now I wonder some more things...:
 * Dhum is the leader of the Terror creatures, Menzies of the Shadow creatures, Abaddon of the Torment creatures... now I wonder if the Titans had a god-like leader like them.
 * Who are the Seers? Are they 'good' helping the chosen ones, 'bad' just helping you defeat the enemies of the lich lord or just the for-life enemies of the Mursaat and do not care about anything else?
 * Were the mursaat also used by Abaddon to kill chosen ones?
 * There are many things still to know yet... Mithran 08:09, 4 December 2006 (CST)


 * Dhum is the leader of the Terror creatures, Menzies of the Shadow creatures, Abaddon of the Torment creatures... now I wonder if the Titans had a god-like leader like them.
 * Yes, they were controlled by Abaddon, and manufactured in his factory, The Foundry of Failed Creations.
 * Who are the Seers? Are they 'good' helping the chosen ones, 'bad' just helping you defeat the enemies of the lich lord or just the for-life enemies of the Mursaat and do not care about anything else?
 * There's nothing to suggest they knew anything about the lich lord, they probably just don't like the mursaat.
 * Were the mursaat also used by Abaddon to kill chosen ones?
 * No, they simply wanted to prevent the flameseeker prophecies from being fulfilled, not for the good of the world, but because the prophecies said the mursaat would be killed off.

Pushbiscuit 22:50, 26 August 2007 (CDT)

Can someone explain...
-Onlyashadow 09:26, 17 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Why when Shiro dies, his "death wail" turns everything to jade&stone?
 * Why is he so powerful when he returns from being dead?
 * Why would he be allowed to be an "Envoy"? (Assuming a greater power governs them)


 * Of course, the simple answer is: because Jeff Strain said so. :) My speculations:
 * He was filled with some kind of magical power that he obtained from slaying the Emperor. Emeprors are not just rulers, they are supposed to have special powers as a result of being emperors.
 * Do you mean when he returns as an envoy or when he comes back to life at the end of the game? The first is because, well he's an envoy, and a cursed one that carries much malice in his soul that it is corrupting the world around him, the second is because he was a kick-butt warrior/assassin/whatever in real life before he died.
 * Again, my guess is that the way he murdered the emperor somehow allowed him to absorb much of the Emperor's power. I am thinking that emperor's move on to become the shepherds of the souls of their people in the afterlife just as they led them in real life. But that's a guess not really a fact.
 * --Karlos 11:43, 17 October 2006 (CDT)

killing someone while they're praying doesn't seem like it would bestow tremendous power to the killer, especially enough to trigger that "jade wind". I'd have to disagree with the emporer->evoy thing since the envoies(word?) not only look like freaks, but at least one of them is a woman/freak...so nuh-uh to that.-Onlyashadow, Top 100 Guild 10:18, 27 October 2006 (CDT)

Dont you become Envoy by doing something horribly bad? If not it is possible Shiro somehow stole Emperor's karma and became one, though that was torture too, seeing how you have to guide people to heaven without you getting there :P Sith 10:31, 27 October 2006 (CDT) Well that explains that part, TY. The jade wind seems like bologna to me.-Onlyashadow, Top 100 Guild 09:09, 30 October 2006 (CST)

Envoys are creatures that did deeds so horible in their life that they were sentenced to serve as envoys to the newly dead as a punishment(probably for all eternity). :--SkyHiRider 16:49, 30 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Easy to answer.
 * He was corrupted by the seer (see nightfall) when he was alive. And he used his ritualist powers to gain more power from the soul of the emperor. He probably gained more and more power killing enemies of the emperor. You add some Abaddon demonic powers with the power of that many souls, plus the special soul of the emperor line and you get that jade wind.
 * He is not human anymore, when he came back, he came as something more like a demon.
 * As they said before, being an envoy is not a reward, but a punishment.

So... why there was no second jade wind when you kill him again? Because he used all the souls he was gathering to raise Afflicted, Constructs and Shiro'ken, and once alive, he had no time to gather souls. This is my theory. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mithran (contribs).
 * His ritualist powers? Man you just made that up. 201.174.197.61 21:21, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


 * His final death wail turns himself to jade. 86.1.234.199 06:58, 8 June 2008 (UTC) Arc D'Automne

Profession debate, yet again...
"The profession debate is not over..."

Okay, let's talk about it here, then. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 21:37, 29 November 2006 (CST)


 * Some points, not all viciously against him being an assassin:
 * Prima doesn't matter: What Prima says is meaningless because they tend to make stuff up when they don't know the right answer. Their speculation is about as informed as ours. More importantly, as with "Elonia", the wiki really should avoid hardcore speculation. In this case, we want the simplest and most functional taxonomy of creatures we can find. This is the key point.
 * It *IS* most definitely noteworthy that Shiro double-strikes: Shiro double-strikes. That's basically it. This is his sole claim to fame as an assassin. Everything else mentioned is supporting evidence that, all put together, is less convincing than "Shiro double-strikes". Still, that's gotta count for something, right? Most definitely...
 * His 'blades' don't matter: What are those things? Honestly? Swords of a saber type, hands-down. They taper funny and have weird grips, but those things, by their length and shape, are just slightly fantasied-up sabers (which is what some "dao" swords look like). You see Viktor and Achae-whatsists holding one of those things in two hands in the cinematic, so they're definitely big (though obviously not honkin' two-handed weapons). Big giant knives? They're only big giant knives in the same sense that a grosses-messer is a big giant knife; i.e. they're swords. The thing is, requirements don't always cleanly map onto actual weapon types in Guild Wars, so this is pretty much irrelevant. Assassins use Dagger Mastery to pick up various kinds of kamas, too (not to mention Ungues of the Oni), and warriors can get picks (which are wielded like hammers or axes). Likewise, you will see a few monsters use out-of-profession weapons. I believe some ranger heket (y'know, the ones that like to use Rampage As One a lot) run around with melee weapons. So, the weapon doesn't directly determine his profession. But, just if you're curious, those are freakin' swords.
 * His "Shadow Steps" don't mean anything: The Lich teleports a lot, too, so this is inconsequential.
 * Shiro definitely doesn't use any regular skills that would allow us to classify him easily: All his skills are weird special things.
 * He doesn't act very assassinly while alive, but this means little: It should be noted that Vizu does totally surprise him and that you never see Shiro using magic (part of an assassin's bag of tricks) while he is a living, mortal being. He just fights really, really hard.
 * So, it's really an issue of how high or low we set the bar and whether things with unique abilities up the wazoo can really have professions. Which, I agree, is not cut-and-dry. (Does Kuunavung count as a ranger, for example?) (Does Varesh count as a Dervish and/or a Paragon?) But, well, I'd like to see other examples of actively conclusive evidence that he's an assassin. Otherwise, all you have to go on are the double-strikes.


 * Let's determine just how much evidence there is and then talk about whether it's enough or not separately. So, more evidence for his assassin-dom? So far it's mostly the double-strikes (which, as I said, are noteworthy). &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 22:10, 29 November 2006 (CST)
 * Well, actually, shadowstepping is a big deal. Afterall, the only other profession who can Shadowstep are Elementalists and only with the skill "Ride the Lightning".  Teleportation is different than Shadowstepping.  You can teleport through walls, you can't shadowstep through walls (You can shadowstep around walls to your location, but if there's a closed gate you can't shadowstep though it while you can teleport around it). &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lu Zon (contribs).
 * It's an ability you give to a boss because it's convenient. I'm dead sure nobody sat there at a design meeting and said "Okay, let's have him teleport around! No, wait, make that Shadow Steps, because he's an assassin!" Everything in Factions is Shadow Steps. I'm sure if the necro teleport skills were introduced in Factions, they'd behave like Shadow Steps, too. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 17:39, 1 December 2006 (CST)
 * That's Pure assumption. There's an important distinguish between them and you can't simply lump them all together.  In much the same vein I can say they were sitting around in a design meeting going "Right then, he's an Assassin so let's make sure he does that one Ninja thing we all liked".  You're talking as if you know the minds of the developers Lu Zon 05:40, 4 December 2006 (CST)
 * Kuunavang uses preparations. Only rangers use preparations. Is she a ranger? &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 06:13, 4 December 2006 (CST)
 * I feel no more reason to argue with you. As far as I'm concerned he's an Assassin/Ritualist just like most Lore stuff says.  You can throw all sorts of Sophist arguments at me but I', done Lu Zon
 * Ritualist? Where do you get Ritualist? Prima? How is he a Ritualist at all? &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 10:49, 5 December 2006 (CST)

Shiro is a mutant A/W for multiple reasons:


 * 1) double strike is Assassin
 * 2) he uses shadow steps; Assassin only skill
 * 3) he dual weilds swords; dual wielding is only Assassin but swords are for Warriors
 * 4) Battles scars is a stance only stances are used by Rangers, Warriors, and Assassin (an he is by far no ranger)
 * 5) Impossible odds is similar to Hundred Blades in the fact he can hit multiple targets more than once
 * 6) Riposting shdows steps to you for a counter attack, Warriors skills have used the counter attack type action before (Riposte sound familiar?)
 * 7) Meditation of the Reaper is a damage prevention type skill similar to how Shadow Form works, you dont take damage for X amount of time (but in his case he has a damage limit, if he didn't he would be impossible)

And those are the reasons I see him as a A/W; if arguments still persist please call a psychiatric facility because you have issues with letting go. Ty and have a nice day Alucard pwns all 14:31, 7 December 2006 (CST)
 * Your 4th point is not valid. Mesmers also have a good amount of stances, they actually have more stances than assassins. 201.174.197.61 21:26, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * You'll note that the last page edit made professon "Assassin," not "Assassn/Warrior". So at least one person disagrees with you. Is he an A/W or a W/A? Or how about this Ritualist thing others keep pushing? On the point of stances and Shadow Steps, does the fact that Kuunavang uses preparations make her a ranger? Is there any kind of coherent system we're using to assign these profession categories here? These aren't just rhetorical questions.
 * For my money, if he has any profession, he is, indeed, some mixture of Warrior and Assassin. It's not clear whether he even should have a profession label, however. Moreover, Guildwiki at least pretends to have this "consensus" thing going, so you're supposed to try to convince other people of your point rather than just changing the page 50 times over if you disagree with something. So, well, the argument people would be having inside the stupid little monster statblock needs to be happening here instead.
 * Also, if you have issues being civil, I suggest you not join in any arguments in the first place. What does inviting people to check into a "psychiatric facility" promote, other than the perception that you're being a douche? &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 16:23, 8 December 2006 (CST)
 * Meditation of the Reaper is more like Life Barrier than Shadow Form. Shadow Form causes attacks to miss and spells to fail and last for its full length. Meditation absorbs damage up to a special amount and ends when that amount is reached. There is a HUGE difference between miss/fail and absorb. Why not just state that he is a combination of all professions available in Cantha? --- Arthas 17:13, 26 April 2007

Dual Attack says it all. - Cracko 14:36, 7 December 2006 (CST)

And also i do see how i could be thought that he is a ritualist: he binds spirits ( like he tried to do to Vizu), he was a spirit envoy, and when he banishes you he send you to an area filled with nothing but attack spirits but that just isn't enough evidence to support a rit secondary. 65.82.104.120 15:04, 7 December 2006 (CST)

GW Taiwan has said that he is A/Rt. The RT is due to his ability to summon spirits so easily. This would make the most scence as Varresh is D/P. And saying the Lich Teleports is perfect evidence that Shiro is an Assasin as Necromancers are the only class that can teleport. The Lich Lord is a necro.--68.192.188.142 15:35, 8 December 2006 (CST)
 * Take a look at Category:Envoys. All Envoys have control over spirits and life and death. The other Envoys are, at the moment, labeled as warriors and whatnot rather than ritualists. Do you think this needs changing, too? (I'm not altogether opposed to the idea, but it's critical that the labels actually mean something if we go about labeling everything.) What's interesting is that looking at that list reveals that one of them dual-wields axes. Kinda interesting, huh? Is he also an assassin? &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 16:23, 8 December 2006 (CST)
 * If an official Guild Wars Website (Guild Wars Taiwan) says he's a A/Rt then he's an A/Rt. This isn't a discussion, it's more a "Someone convince me to change my mind" sort of thing.  You're not going to agree to anything others will say because it's different than what you believe; therefor this "discussion" is pointless.  For one so interested in labels calling this a discussion is incorrect as that label implies that either side is willing to be swayed and it's obvious you are not. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lu Zon (contribs).
 * I'm willing to be swayed. More importantly, I'm willing to take my opinion and keep it to myself if consensus says otherwise. But I'm not willing to have someone go over there and change the page despite a whole talk page full of comments from Karlos, Stabber, Tetris L, and others that do not agree with the changes being made. If I had an opinion that was different from the majority's, I wouldn't care that much: put up what the consensus view is. But, right now, there doesn't appear to be consensus. There's one guy saying Assassin and one guy saying W/A and one guy saying A/Rt and one guy saying creatures that don't use any profession-specific skills don't count for professions. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 18:25, 10 December 2006 (CST)
 * If we simply had to label him, he'd be a warrior. Since when do Assassins bodyguard people, or guard caravans etc (in his backstory). It's been pointed out that the dual-wielding is irrelevant; because he's a boss, he's kickass enough to wield two full-size swords (and that's what they are; *not* daggers). Him being part-rit is bologna; you're assigning a profession to him based on storyline happenings seen in the FMVs? No, he's granted control over the undead because he's an Envoy. He never summons a proper spirit, ever. To make this easy, I'll copy-paste Alucard's list and agree/disagree with each.
 * "1) double strike is Assassin "- agreed, although this may have been added just to make him harder
 * "2) he uses shadow steps; Assassin only skill" - flat wrong, the "shadow step" "skills" he uses aren't assassin
 * "3) he dual weilds swords; dual wielding is only Assassin but swords are for Warriors" - also wrong, he has two swords because he's mighty, not because he's an assa
 * "4) Battles scars is a stance only stances are used by Rangers, Warriors, and Assassin (an he is by far no ranger)" - absolutely pointless, as we're trying to decide whether he's primary warrior or assassin.
 * "5) Impossible odds is similar to Hundred Blades in the fact he can hit multiple targets more than once" - by this logic, he's definitely a Dervish; they hit multiple targets without trying
 * "6) Riposting shdows steps to you for a counter attack, Warriors skills have used the counter attack type action before (Riposte sound familiar?)" - agreed, this sounds like a warrior skill, but it isn't (technically)
 * "7) Meditation of the Reaper is a damage prevention type skill similar to how Shadow Form works, you dont take damage for X amount of time (but in his case he has a damage limit, if he didn't he would be impossible)" - No... it doesn't work anything like Shadow Form, sorry.
 * So basically, he's as big as a warrior, acts like a warrior, his weapon choice = swords, he's a bodyguard, he's dumb as a rock. On the other hand... he dual-strikes. Sounds like a warrior to me. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|||My Talk]] 05:18, 16 December 2006 (CST)

GW Taiwan says He's a A/Rt! If Anet says he's one then he is! The made the game! This sin't even a real discussion, this is jsut some stubber people who don't want to listen to the creaters of the game itself.--TheDrifter 15:41, 18 December 2006 (CST)
 * look this will go on forever so I'm going to try to put an end to it he is an A(primary) W (primary) rt(secondary) or he isn't any profession except unique (also its Impossible to have 2 primary professions) Assassin because of the dual wield and the shadow stepping, Warrior because of the swords and his plan agains't shadow steping assassins is to start screaming coward at the top of his voice (no not "Coward!") and rit because he absorbs the emporers soul. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.128.130.13 (contribs).
 * Look at the timestamps on the posts, anon. The discussion below (wherein K. tries to back up the source in good faith and finds nothing) already covers this. Also, that's why the page just says "Special" right now, and will probably continue to do so. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 17:17, 18 January 2007 (CST)
 * He is a W/A IMO because it has the same animation of a male warrior when double strikes and assassin because double strikes and shadow steps. Glenn 14:50, 25 January 2007 (CST)
 * To solve this once and for all, Shiro is so badass that he went out of game, threatened Anet to give him three primary professions, then went back to the game in time to kill the emperor. End of. --Yohoho Mouse 11:56, 4 April 2007 (CDT)

I'm really surprised that no one mentioned this (well maybe they did, I didn't read all of it, but it seems to me this is proof)... His skill bar is warrior color, when he casts his skills.

"GW Taiwan says he's an A/Rt"
Hmm, while we're at it... Anyone got a link to the source? Hard to navigate that page when you don't speak Mandarin. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 17:00, 18 December 2006 (CST)
 * Somewhat related... "It is claimed in the Guild Wars Factions Strategy Guide that Shiro Tagachi is an Assassin Ritualist." They aren't seriously using the Prima guide as the source for that, right? Pointless, dangerous (how often is Prima wrong?) and a waste of time. If the Taiwanese manual says it, but none of the other languages have it... why? Profession Combos don't seem like something easily lost in translation. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|||My Talk]]  20:00, 18 December 2006 (CST)
 * Remember that the ANet crew wrote the Factions guide. I've also got it only saying Assassin there. (I'm not part of the debate, just wanted to pitch this fact in.) &mdash; [[Image:Fin_sig.gif|User:Kyrasantae]] kyrasantae  20:08, 18 December 2006 (CST)
 * That makes a bit more sense. I'd at least trust a guide from ANet, although I'd never actually buy one (not for this game, anyway)... so was the /Rit lost in translation? -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|||My Talk]] 20:10, 18 December 2006 (CST)
 * I wouldn't know, but this was listed in the tables in the back amidst entries for the monsters in the game. I don't think there are any other dual-class monsters in Factions, though, so it could have been dropped (accidentally or not) for that reason.  But it doesn't really make any sense for him to be /Rt, there's no evidence for it at all.  If someone can point me to the Chinese source I could attempt to read it. I read too slowly to navigate through the NCTaiwan site.  &mdash; [[Image:Fin_sig.gif|User:Kyrasantae]] kyrasantae   20:17, 18 December 2006 (CST)
 * Agreed. He never uses any form of channeling magic to attack, any item/weapon spells, and he never Binds a spirit (outside of his influence as an Envoy; he never does it in-game, nor does he have any skills that suggest it). -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|||My Talk]] 20:20, 18 December 2006 (CST)

Hmm... shall we put all those little Babel boxes to work and find ourselves a fluent speaker? &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 22:32, 18 December 2006 (CST)
 * I'm a native speaker, I just can't read really well. I took a quick skim through the page they have on the Factions Storyline and I didn't see anything. &mdash; [[Image:Fin_sig.gif|User:Kyrasantae]] kyrasantae  13:17, 19 December 2006 (CST)
 * Thanks, Kyrasantae. Hmm... maybe you could do a google search with "site: "? &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 20:37, 20 December 2006 (CST)
 * A search for  (the first being "Shiro Tagachi" and the latter "Ritualist") didn't yield any results indicating that the two terms were related. I am envious, however, of the fact that there are mission overviews/guides for Factions missions on that site (they're definitely NOT the same as the ones in the Prima guide).
 * On a whim I tried the same search again, but with "暗殺" ("assassin") instead of "ritualist" and I didn't find anything of note either (mostly just the same pages). &mdash; [[Image:Fin_sig.gif|User:Kyrasantae]] kyrasantae  21:05, 20 December 2006 (CST)

'''Nobody actually presented evidence of GW Taiwan calling him an A/Rt and someone who tried in good faith couldn't find it, so Shiro's gonna be a "Special" again for a while. Please feel free to continue the arguments above (should he maybe be a W/A instead of an A/Rt?)''' &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 20:22, 23 December 2006 (CST)

Swords?
Uhm, aren't the blades he is wielding Shiro's Dagger? ie. the ones you get with Amulet of the Mists which happen to look like their sword counterpart except TWO of them?--Silk Weaker 02:22, 22 December 2006 (CST)
 * The item you're referring to is called Shiro's Blades. Those use the Dagger Mastery attribute. Weapon attributes generalize to multiple weapon types. In that respect, Shiro's Blades are like the Colossal Pick (a mass weapon powered by the Hammer Mastery stat, but not a hammer per se, clearly) or Kamas (Dagger Mastery, but not a dagger). If you're asking about real-world classification, then I can can most definitely tell you that, based on size, shape, and use both in the intro cutscene and in the game proper, those are a type of sword (a somewhat fantastical saber-like type of sword, to be specific). &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 02:30, 22 December 2006 (CST)
 * The existence of the Sword version suggests more than the Dagger version (like has been said, they're only Daggers for the in-game mechanics of player assassins using them). -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|||My Talk]] 03:48, 26 December 2006 (CST)
 * Actually i think the only reason the sword version exists is because the luxon/kurzick hero each drew one and killed him with it

Cannot be knocked down?
I'm not sure this is correct, unless it has been changed at some point. I have knocked him down with a hammer warrior. I don't imagine he went through the animation but was still attacking because the life bars of the other party members weren't dropping while he was on the ground. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.190.8.216 (contribs).

Mirror Stance
Shiro's stances cannot be copied with Mirrored Stance. Who inserted that line? Glenn 12:33, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * Considering that the notes of Mirrored Stance says "it cannot copy monster stances such as Turtle Shell", and then later stating "It can copy Battle Scars", I guess someone was just confused. I was going to challenge that earlier, but I've never even used Mirror Stance so I didn't want to perhaps remove a valid note. Entropy 14:21, 1 February 2007 (CST)

Prove: "After Death"
Where exactly in the storyline of Nightfall did it mention that "The Fortune Teller was a torment creature, an agent of Abaddon sent to Cantha to twist the mind of Shiro and corrupt his soul"? Perhaps I just missed it, but I want to make sure. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Our Lady of Health (contribs).
 * The quest Bad Fortune. &mdash; [[Image:Fin_sig.gif|User:Kyrasantae]] kyrasantae  22:06, 19 February 2007 (CST)

Shiro is a warrior!
In the cinematics right after finishing the tenakai temple mission, the fortune teller tells shiro about the emperor having an eye on him. when Shiro meets the emperor, the emperor says "You have served me well, WARRIOR". so there you have it, Shiro is a warrior, at least warrior primary. maybe hes a W/A (jungle trolls also have 2 professions) but he is a warrior. this is nothing about arguments or anything, this is a fact! Gamerloin

Correction: He is a Warrior before he assassinates the Emperor. --Zerris- (talk) 17:13, 26 February 2007 (CST)

Just because the game says he's a warrior, doesn't mean he is one, heh. Look at all the other mistakes that exist. He has no regular profession. &mdash; Skuld 17:16, 26 February 2007 (CST)

So if i assassinate some1 with my ele, it becomes a sin? Gamerloin

As far as official Arena-Net story plots go, probably. --Zerris- (talk) 17:23, 27 February 2007 (CST)

I don't recall the subtitles of the cinematic, but the difference between warrior and Warrior is worth nothing. Mortius Medici 01:34, 3 April 2007 (CDT)

Dictionary.com says a warrior is "One who is engaged in or experienced in battle". everyone of the professions is this, so he is not necessarily a warrior. --&#39;&#39;Stranger&#39;&#39;

Shiro uses a warrior armour art with an assassin weapon. W/A seems to be a logical class based on a player's stats, but the doppleganger is able to have the primary-exclusive attribute maxed for both primary and secondary profession. This proves that monsters (or just enemies in general) and players don't follow the same restrictions, and Shiro is likely not able to be classed into one of the currently player-available jobs.

Archive Time
"WARNING: This page is 63 kilobytes long; some browsers may have problems editing pages approaching or longer than 32kb. Please consider breaking the page into smaller sections." --Zerris- (talk) 16:22, 1 March 2007 (CST)

Natural Regeneration
In Sunjiang District, Shiro has between 7 and 10 Natural Health Regeneration. Possibly >10, but it won't show since you can't degen him there, at least not in any way I can think of. I'm guessing for 10, because it's a nice round number (i.e. max). --Zerris- (talk) 18:04, 1 March 2007 (CST)
 * That's definitely 10 Regeneration. --Zerris-[[Image:ZerrisSig.jpg]] (talk) 18:15, 1 March 2007 (CST)

At the risk of being lynched...
Shiro is an assassin.
 * He shadow steps. Assassins are the only class that can do this. Necrmancers and elementalists can teleport, but that is completely different to shadow stepping.
 * He double-strikes. Assassins are the only class that can do this.
 * He has two blades. Assassins are the only profession that can dual-wield. After killing him, you can either choose both blades or one. Just because you can choose to wield one of his blades does not make him a warrior. Don't you think he'd have a shield, an axe or a hamnmer too?
 * The fact that he uses the same character model of a warrior is irrelevant. In fact, there's a possibility that he uses the same model as a ranger - you'd have to see an emote to tell. Morgahn uses a warrior model, Eve an ele, Mhenlo a ranger and all Am Fah Assassins use the ranger model. It's simply the way he was designed.
 * It is explicitly stated in the PRIMA guide on more than one occasion that he is an assassin. Seriously, guys, the PRIMA guide is cited in the manual and is a reccomended buy. Your argument is that the guide is innacurate, but actually it was just based on preliminary information and out-of-date before the game was released. Any lore contained in it is considered canonical. -- 10:08, 18 March 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm willing to stand behind that, but please don't Lynch me >_< --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]]   13:32, 18 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Even if he does thing that only assassin do, his profession is still considered Special because he doesn't use assassin skills. So please don't change the profession. --Glenn 15:59, 18 March 2007 (CDT)
 * The Prima Guide is notorious for being horrendously wrong.

GuildWiki was left out of the manuals until nightfall was released, and Prima has always been in. Prima is notorious for outdated/blatantly incorrect info, go figure ;) Prima gets its info from the GW devs, and I can safely say that we know more about the game than them. &mdash; Skuld 08:49, 22 May 2007 (CDT)

bs knock down
cant be knocked down hahaha ya right when i fought him i he was on the ground all the time realy people try useing wanderlust and earthbind you will see hes down &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.89.72.155 (contribs).

Yea he can be knocked down. Need to fix the info--Killer of good 22:48, 21 June 2007 (CDT)

Spoilers
I'm a bit surprised that there's a spoiler tag for the small part he plays in nightfall but not all he does in factions, if anyone disagrees feel free to move/remove it Wyvern 15:51, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
 * You know he's the enemy from very early on in Factions, while his appearance in Nightfall is hinted at and used as a surprise. I'd say the only thing he does in Factions that deserves a spoiler comes at the end of the Raisu Palace mission. --Valentein 11:18, 22 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Though there are already Spoiler tags I think the fact that his Nightfall location is listed above them to be a little annoying. -Ezekiel 00:52, 30 June 2007 (CDT)

Vandal
Who is this jerk called 216.120.137.99 that is repeatedly writing stupid things on this page? -- GlennThePaladin (Talk,Contrib) 09:02, 25 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Just another child who learned how to use teh intarwebs. I believe the official term is "ankle biter." --Macros 10:10, 25 April 2007 (CDT)

Shiro has no (discernable) profession
In my opinion, the end all is skill usage. He obviously uses no skills from any specific profession, and he's not labeled, we clearly cannot label him ourselves. He's a boss, he's beyond the limits of X/Y profession. The biggest evidence would be the double striking and the weapon requirements, but the double striking could be a boss thing, and dagger mastery is not a primary attribute. Spen 17:44, 10 May 2007 (CDT)


 * If you REALLY want to fin out its up to you to kill him 5000 times in hard mods till he drops an assassin tome XD--Diddy Bow 08:30, 22 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Only bosses drop elite tomes. &mdash; Skuld 08:45, 22 May 2007 (CDT)


 * i didnt say ELITE tome ;)--Diddy Bow 18:39, 22 May 2007 (CDT)
 * This same discussion occurred with Kanaxai, until someone finally got a screenshot of an assassin tome dropping from Kanaxai. So has anyone gotten a tome drop from Shiro? jhu 07:40, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm agreeing with what Spen said. Shiro is another special boss like Glint and Mallyx, he's beyond the normal classification. I mean basing Kuunavang and Shiro simply because of what skills and how they attack is stupid. Glint uses a stance (which are mainly used by Warriors and Rangers), a massive regen spell (kinda monksih), a spike snare (kinda water ele/gank warrior ish) and a way of giving everyone exhaustion(iirc only mesmers and rangers can give enemies exhaustion). The only difference with Shiro from the other special bosses is the fact that he fights in a way that's much more 'human' than the other bosses, he uses melee weapons and looks human as well. I guess that's why him and Kanaxai are pretty much the main ones with all this profession rubbish being debated about --Blue.rellik 22:01, 11 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I think Glint is a Wammo. --DEATHWING 01:58, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
 * But she can hurt things --Blue.rellik 10:00, 6 July 2007 (CDT)


 * Might aswell add my opinion in Shiro's Prof. Obviously Assassin for many reasons stated above and.. One thing I have noticed is that in both campaigns they use the new professions as certain NPC's, one for good, one for bad. Like.. Kormir (Paragon, good), Varesh (Dervish, bad) And Togo (Ritualist, good) so, aswell as all the reasons already stated, it should be Shiro(Assassin, bad)-- Ruby Red 13:40, 17 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Except Varesh turns into a Paragon, but it sort of worked. --DEATHWING 23:47, 17 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Shiro is the main antagonist of Factions, Varesh is only a lackey in Nightfall. At least Togo and Kormir actually uses rit/para skills --Blue.rellik 08:28, 19 July 2007 (CDT)

Shiro has 4 weapons notified as: 2 Primary Swords, as seen in the cinematic and (also seen in the cinematic) 2 Daggers wich are covered inside his armor. I think of the fact, that he has a somewhat "Special" profession. I think he would somewhat be (if stated in "existing" professions) a Primary Warrior and a Primary Assassin, though this is only a thought I think this to be very likely, because he has 2 types of weapons, and warrior- and assassinlike stances.--Fighterbitsj 19:59, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


 * He once dropped daggers in the Gates of Madness mission. Screenshot was lost anyway, so I shouldn't believe myself without proof. However, be on the watchout for this.84.29.140.92 21:05, 12 December 2007 (UTC)Jelmewnema 21:06, 12 December 2007 (UTC)Forgot to signJelmewnema 21:06, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Crave Case

 * Other Japanese meanings for 'shiro' are 'white' and 'castle'.

heehee

I imagine that sometime soon some noob will post a team build on PvX involving the term "White Castle" and they'll put something in suggested usage about spamming some stupid catchphrase such as "you just got hamburgered" (most likely appearing in 13375p34xx0rz...) Anybody else think that this will happen?

Knockdowns
I'm aware that shiro can be kd'd in gates of madness. Is wanderlust the only skills able to do this or is he vulnerable to all kd's? If wanderlust is the only kd that works, then that should be listed as a bug, and it should remain that he's immune to kd's in special abilities.
 * how is it animated if he's knocked down? would be strange if this would be animated despite it is a bug... 0ô -- [[image:Elixir_Of_Valor.jpg|15x15px]] Zerpha The Improver 19:15, 26 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm wondering if Shiro in Gates of Madness can be knocked down. NOTHING my hammer did would knock him down (Counter Blow OR Devastating Hammer). Following up DH with Crushing Blow would not produce the Deep Wound. If he can, then it would be Wanderlust that can knock him down (which shouldn't happen). --Kale Ironfist 08:53, 1 August 2007 (CDT)

Chuck Norris Fact
Chuck Norris knows which Professions Shiro has. :D -- Zerpha The Improver 19:19, 26 July 2007 (CDT)
 * /signed --DEATHWING 01:26, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I lol'd VendingMachine 06:01, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

DAMN SKIPPY &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.154.162.38 (contribs).
 * This is very true. Reiauna 02:36, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

/opposed, Chuck Norris can't know what profession Shiro is because he one shot soloed Shiro before getting a chance to check :P
 * But he got tome from him... xD --Sur Dasen 14:52, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Norn blood?
Does Shiro have a little bit of Norn in him? He is a good three feet taller than all the Canthan guards and about 50% taller than Emperor Angsiyan, as can be seen in the ending cinematic of Tahnnakai Temple. I started wondering about this after reading the speculation that Turai Ossa was a Norn. The Good Life 18:23, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Turai Ossa, a norn? Well, would be cool if shiro would really have some^^ But except for his size...and affinity to fight allone against the rest (at least in the last mission), he does not act like a norn. — [[Image:Zerpha_Elixir_Of_Valor.jpg]] Zerpha The Improver  20:36, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Shiro is level 30. Monsters (and pets) grow taller the higher the level.  A level 30 creature with Norn blood would probably be three-heads taller than Shiro is currently. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 22:36, 25

October 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe he's half Norn?
 * Ah yes, the science of Guild Wars. The Hobo 03:41, 7 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Norn blood? It appears we have a person for each piece of speculation floating in GW. I think he was an virtual offspring of Wadlow *Smashes head in monitor* Flechette 06:22, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Natural Resistance
I have found that all hexes that I have placed on shiro have a signifficantly reduced duration. While the skill notes for Impossible Odds states that it also removes one hex upon activation, I have found that hexes still end prematurely when he isn't using that skill or any other skill when a hex ends early. I'm adding it to the artical for now, further input would be appreciated though. Born to Mes 13:34, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Killing Shiro in Sunjiang District
It is stated that ppl killed Shiro in Sunjiang District... Where is the proof of that ?Big Bow 17:53, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
 * sorry, 'fraid I can't remember where it was now, but a guild posted screenshots when they did it. Ezekiel  [Talk]  02:23, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
 * in the Sunjiang District article it says it can't be done. don't we need to be consistent? 24.99.60.76 07:31, 8 May 2008 (UTC) Muse Carmona (N/Mo)
 * Where does it say that? Ezekiel  [Talk]  09:12, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * By the way, the article says he cannot be targeted; but many point blank area of effect skills don't need to target, it also says he cannot be damaged; but life stealing is not damage. For example Vampiric Spirit. <font color=#555>Ezekiel <font color=#AAA> [Talk]  09:18, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Vamp Spirit + Unholy Feast spamming. Yay. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 09:22, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I think he used to be killable, but then a game update made him not a foe in Sunjiang, so he'd no longer be affected by player skills that affects foes. Might need double-checking though. -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 09:35, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * How do we even get close enough to him so we could spam those skills? 118.138.160.45 09:55, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * If you use those feet, you can walk next to him. Literally. :) --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 10:36, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I tested just now with Unholy Feast + Vampiric Spirit. It does damage him. 76.185.168.84 11:18, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * [[Image:Killingshiro1.jpg]] Nothing happens :( Snagretpudding 19:11, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Shiro is not considered human
When I last time did Gate of Madness, I deseased him and he did't spread that throught our team, I'll check in Imperial Sanctum --83.30.88.96 11:03, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Shiro makes his presence in Raisu Palace
Proof:, I'm adding it into article --Sur Dasen 10:32, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Just a thought
I read up there about how player invoked skills cannot KD Shiro, but Wanderlust can. Just thought I'd mention that Wanderlust DOES have the power to bypass natural knockdown prevention, as I have used it to knock-lock Siege Turtles in Fort Aspenwood. [It's painfully obvious when it happens.] I believe Shiro is immune to all knockdowns, and it's the Wanderlust bypass bug that makes him fall. <font color="Green">Kaze 05:18, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Are you talking about Factions Shiro or Nightfall Shiro? There's a lot of confusion about which can and can't be knocked down. <font color=#555>Ezekiel <font color=#AAA> [Talk]  15:04, 9 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm referring to Factions Shiro. I kno for a fact that Nightfall Shiro can be knocked down by player, as I have done it before. [[Image:H.K.jpg|19px]]<font color="Green">Kaze 22:39, 10 July 2008 (UTC)