GuildWiki talk:Style and formatting

This page is 62 kilobytes long
That is worth breaking into TWO archives o_O"""

Can someone who is more familiar with Style and formatting do the archving? Moving any concluded decisions to the "project page"? -PanSola 18:30, 11 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Done. 22:16, 14 March 2006 (CST)
 * I was expecting you to arcive this too d-: -PanSola 22:17, 14 March 2006 (CST)

Categories: General Discussion
I put the boss category crusade on hold for a bit because I realized that I opened a can of worms. Before I continue, I'd like to have a general, basic discussion about the use of categories on GuildWiki.

So far, the way we handle categories requires relatively low maintainance: For example an NPC goes into Category:NPCs, if its a Warrior it goes into Category:Warriors, if it's a human it goes into Category:Humans, and so on. That's very simple, easy and quick, but this way we end up with categories that contain hundreds of entries. And these categories will grow rapidly as new campaigns are released. What is a plain alphabetic list of several hundred bosses good for? IMVHO: NOTHING!!! It helps nobody, with nothing.

All the lists on GuildWiki that are really useful have to be maintained manually. I'd rather see us put a little more work into categories to change them in such a way that they actually become USEFUL.

I'm thinking ahead here, towards Factions and further. Chapter Three is already on the horizon, and due for release by the end of this year. A lot of work coming towards us. I think if we'd use categories a littel smarter they could be very helpful to compile lists. This way we can be faster and better than any other GW fansite out there.

Think about it yourself for a bit: What are the lists that most people are looking for on GuildWiki, and how would we have to modify categories in order to help us with these lists?

If a majority of people agrees that our current categories are not very helpful, I'll make a few suggestions how to improve them. I've got plenty of ideas. And I'm willing to do work, i.e. to do category crusades. But I'd rather do it right the first time. -- 00:28, 11 March 2006 (CST)


 * I do not agree. I find our category system very helpful. If I am browsing monsters in an area, the category system works fine for me. It's just the nature of the information that some of it isnot as highly coveted as other information. For example, if I meet a tough Mursaat ele boss, and I have trouble beating him, I will come to the wiki to see what his skills are and also look for helpful needs. I will most likely type in his name, or go to the area page and find his name in the bosses section. Now, I have never (to date) ever click to see: "Pray tell, what other elementalists are out there." That categorization, though logical, is not one I have ever found useful. I have found use for grouping the bosses. And subdividing it into species was a good thing.
 * Now, I would ask that you first propose the changes you want to make. You have held back Stabber from categorizing skills, but have not put in the alternative. Likewise, here, you say: If you're not pleased with the present category say: "Aye" but what are we saying Aye to? --Karlos 02:53, 14 March 2006 (CST)


 * My $0.02 - I've actually been contacted in game by a lot of people with comments/questions/complaints about the wiki. I don't mind it at all as long as they're civil (and all but one has been, that one person simply went on my ignore list when they refused to calm down).  More than a few complaints have been about the categories, but surprisingly people seem to complain when we change them so that they have to delve further into the tree.  For example, I got one complaint over the weekend about the new bosses stuff, this person preferred the main boss category and didn't like having to figure out what species they were and then clicking on that category.  I've also recieved complaints about the splitting up of the Collectable Drops into the different types of drops, seems some people don't like that either (this happened a while ago I know, but it is a similar situation).  So from my experience, people want less categories with more stuff in them.
 * My personal thought is that if a category has less than 200 things in it (which seems to be when the category splits to multiple pages), then there is no reason to split that category. --Rainith 03:15, 14 March 2006 (CST)

My proposal is to have all core skills in Category:Core skills, all Prophecies Campaign skills in Category:Prophecies Campaign skills, and all Factions skills in Category:Factions Campaign skills. At least Rainith has indicated support for this scheme (or, at least, lack of opposition). Do you have any objections to it, and if so, can you lay out a more perspicuous category tree? If not, I will proceed with this categorization. TIA. 18:59, 14 March 2006 (CST)


 * Personally I think categories with several hundred entries are pretty much to useless. I especially hate the fact that, if there are more than 200 entries in a category, MediaWiki will not only split the category entries, but also the subcategories. This means you can not see all subcategories on page 1, which is most confusing and missleading. However, if there are people who find such categories useful, there is an easy workaround: Add a sub-category Category:All . For example, have a look at what I've done with Category:Add Weapon Upgrades. I sorted the subcategories by various criteria, but I also created a subcategory Category:Weapon Upgrades. This is where I dumped ALL weapon upgrades into, regardless of their type. Basically, this subcategory has the state of the original category before I started sorting it.
 * To sum up with few words what I have in mind on the whole matter of categories is not easy. I have plenty of ideas for creatures, items, quests, skills, etc. Most of the ideas involve the use of templates to automate categories.
 * To give you an idea what I'd consider intelligent use of categories in such a way that it will help us to maintain lists I've created a test template (Template:Skills). Have a look at it and comment.
 * There are only two things I'm not sure about:
 * This test template alone, if used throughout the wiki, would create thousands of new categories! Is MediaWiki able to cope with this?
 * I have not found a good workaround of the "plural problem". Since we have agreed that all category names shall be in plural templates would have to be able to automatically generate the plural of a PAGENAME or a template variable. That isn't possible right now.
 * I'll start writing down all my thoughts and plans for categories and will dump them into User:Tetris L/Categories. -- 19:28, 14 March 2006 (CST)


 * I'm sorry to say this, but if every skill page is going to become an instantiated template, then guildwiki will have taken a sharp turn in the direction of the arcane. Template soup is something I wish we had less of &mdash; it runs completely counter to the Zen of Wiki. I will wait to read your full proposal before expanding on this comment. In the interim, Category:Core skills is incomplete. If the design of GuildWiki Categories 2.0 is going to take a while longer, it might simply be better to uncategorize things from Category:Core skills and nuke the category. 19:51, 14 March 2006 (CST)


 * I can not deny that it's true that the use of templates makes GuildWiki a lot more complicated, and less newbie-friendly. Some time ago Karlos warned about the dangers of this development here, and off course has had a strong point. But: I think it is possible to created templates in such an intuitive way that even a newbie will be able to grasp quickly how to use them. How do most people learn wiki markup? They look at other articles, copy code and modify it. And for newbies who have difficulties, there's always the experienced contributors to step in and fix the code, just like we wikify raw articles now.
 * Using templates makes life more difficult for beginners, but a lot easier for the experienced people. And ... face it ... 90% of the work on this wiki is done by the latter group. I'm afraight if we do not expand the use of templates on this wiki, sooner or later we will loose overview. With every campaign released categories and lists will grow, and sooner or later most of them will break through the 200 entry barrier.
 * I think GuildWiki should make the move now, before Factions comes out. Right now we have only one campaign to fix, and if we make the right decisions now, life will be much easier for Factions and all future campaigns.
 * As for Category:Core skills, I would only suggest to split it into subcategories by profession, e.g. Orison of Healing should not be in Category:Core skills, but instead be in Category:Monk Core skills, which would be a subcategory of Category:Core skills by profession and Category:Monk skills by campaign. -- 20:17, 14 March 2006 (CST)


 * All right. I am fine with your suggested categorization. I will categorize the remaining skills in this fashion presently. 20:23, 14 March 2006 (CST)


 * As you have no doubt noticed already, I have done this for ranger and monk core skills. Any objections regarding this categorization must be brought up now. I will hold off on the rest until there has been some time for discussion. 21:44, 14 March 2006 (CST)


 * I am horrified, mortified even, petrified by what I am reading! The little Molenin in me is about to squeal! :) I'll wait and let you formulate a proposition first. I feel we're once again re-opening issues (as if we're done with the gazillion things we want to do), instead of building on what we agreed upon, we are re-hashing things over and over. I feel this will be the biggest detriment to our ability to get ready for Ch2. When it comes out and people re-propose a new skill-box and a re-propose a mission layout and so forth. The OCD freak in me is screaming in agony. I fell most of these re-hashes are by people who simply did not attend the first discussion and thus we keep re-discussing the wheel. But, no more whining. Prehaps your propostion will bring about our salvation.. The Molenin in me hopes you are Molachev, not Krak Flamewhip! :)
 * For now, consider this: In the template you proposed, you are using Categories instead of hyper links which I believe is a poor use of a wiki. To say "See Category:Skill X Quests" instead of "See quest 1, 2 and 3" is to basically drop the braket format . You are practically writing a script to generate the page. Something I am quantitatively and qualitatively against. Molenin be damned! :( --Karlos 20:48, 14 March 2006 (CST)
 * For each case you feel we are rediscussing things, if you can point us to the previous discussion, that would help a lot. Sometimes it's not that we didn't attend the first discussion, but we weren't even onboard yet when the first discussion took place.  Subtle difference.-PanSola 21:06, 14 March 2006 (CST)
 * And I see it much less of "generating a page" as opposed to "generating a list". Of course you can still be quantitatively and qualitatively against that, but it's a slightly different issue. -PanSola 21:06, 14 March 2006 (CST)

My thoughts:
 * 1) If a category does NOT have any subcats, then I don't care if it has over 200 articles.  HOWEVER, if it has at least one single sub-category, then due to the way MediaWiki displays things, I believe the parent category needs to be broken down so either the number of articles + subcats are <= 200, or everything goes into a subcategory (there might be over 200 subcategories, that's ok), and no stray articles.
 * 2) Some templates are hard to learn, some templates are less hard to learn.  But learning how to format a table in various nice and pretty ways is, IMHO, HARDER THAN ANY TEMPLATE I have seen on GuildWiki.  Once you need to use a table that isn't the plain borderless, background-color-less, default width table, the whole Zen of Wiki goes out of the window, because specifying formatting for a MediaWiki table is right on the level of HTML/CSS formatting.
 * 3) No opinon on Template:Skills, although personally I think the categories it generate would be nice.  I just don't have an opinion as to whether we should type the "code" in manually for each article, or use a template for it. -PanSola 21:00, 14 March 2006 (CST)
 * 4) One more thing, I hate it when a category says "A list of all the blah blah blah", because, in fact, most of the time the category isn't complete yet.  Even if it is intended to be complete eventually, or is complete now, I find the "all" still overly presumptuous.  I prefer using the wording "A list of blah blah blah", stripping the "all" part.  It's not like we are going to intentially include only a partial set of them and hide that fact.  We just make no gaurentees that it is complete, or is still complete when a user visits it right after a game update. -PanSola 21:11, 14 March 2006 (CST)


 * Karlos: I hear you! I, too, see the risks. There seems to be a misunderstanding about my intentions. I do not want categories to replace lists in bracket format (except for some few cases). As you no doubt remember, in the past I've often spoken strongly in favor of properly formated lists in articles instead of simple alphabetic categories. I want categories to help us with maintaining manual lists, not replace them. Below the manual list, we can add a note, possibly even in small font, saying "For a simple alphabetic list, see also: Category:" . This way you can check the category to see if any items are missing in the manual list and add them.
 * I totally disagree that this is the "biggest detriment to our ability to get ready for Ch2" though. Quite the opposite!! As I've explained, I think we need a change in policy in order to get ready for future chapters, especially for templates and categories. Most of our templates and categories were made with only ONE chapter in mind. They worked okay for Prophecies, but they are not suited for future campaigns.
 * I think we all agree about at least one thing: This is a crucial, very basic decision that will shake the foundations of this wiki. A decision needs to be made, through a vote, quickly, before Factions comes out. Before the Factions Preview Event even. The longer we wait, the more articles are created, the more painful it will become to change something. -- 23:04, 14 March 2006 (CST)

Vote on suffix
See GuildWiki_talk:Style_and_formatting/Archive_2 for the old vote/arguements given. Discuss below.

Voting format: instant run-off (remember to specify your second/third/fourth preferences if applicable!)


 * Alphabetical suffix: Skills (Core), Skills (Prophecies), Skills (Factions)
 * 1) Xeeron
 * 2) Stabber
 * 3) Evil_Greven
 * 4) (vote here)
 * Numerical suffix
 * Including core: Skills (C0), Skills (C1), Skills (C2)
 * 1) Pan Sola (second choice: excluding core)
 * Excluding core: Skills (Core), Skills (C1), Skills (C2)
 * 1) (vote here)
 * Other (you better have a really really great idea to vote for "other")
 * 1) (vote here)

People who cared enough to vote on the suffix issue previously but haven't voted this time yet

 * Tetris L,
 * Barek,
 * Lunarbunny,
 * Rainith,
 * Karlos,
 * TheSpectator,
 * Nunix

Suffixes revisited
Apart from all the discussion above, I noticed that all the articles mentioned above use the format "Campaign Skill", instead of the "Skill (Campaign), that was previously discussed on GuildWiki_talk:Style_and_formatting/Archive_2. Did sentiments change here? I feel we should discuss this beforehand, since it will affect a huge range of article names. --Xeeron 22:33, 14 March 2006 (CST)


 * Hehe, see section below -PanSola 22:37, 14 March 2006 (CST)

some text below was moved here from Category talk:Monk Core skills

see discussion at GuildWiki_talk:Style_and_formatting, with vote results under it at GuildWiki_talk:Style_and_formatting. -PanSola 22:07, 14 March 2006 (CST)


 * That vote is obsolete. The "chapter" to "campaign" switchover in all official Anet paraphernalia is more recent than the votes. Incidentally, that style and formatting page is impossible to read. 22:10, 14 March 2006 (CST)


 * The obsoleteness only pertains to the specific word "Chapter" vs "Campaign". A numeric system (2 vs Two) with short character cues (Ch vs Chapter can be transferred to C vs Campaign) for ease of sorting vs texual system is the main outcome of that vote, with an assumed suffix system that nobody challenged.  I don't mind if it goes "Monk skills (C0)" or "Monk skills (Core)", but I prefer the suffix system. -PanSola 22:26, 14 March 2006 (CST)


 * I don't particularly care either way if it's Category:Monk Core skills or Category:Monk skills (Core). It just means that I have to unleash my trusty little battery powered GuildWikian one more time. However, I do object to "C0", as it is not used in-game. 22:29, 14 March 2006 (CST)
 * So Category:Monk skills (Core) is something we will both accept, but core is a special case. How about Category:Monk skills (C1) for skills exclusive to the Prophecies compaign, do you also object to "C1" because it is not used in-game?  We might have to bring this back to GuildWiki_talk:Style_and_formatting for another discussion/vote. -PanSola 22:31, 14 March 2006 (CST)


 * Yes, I think further brainstorming, and possibly another vote is warranted, as the last vote was won by the "ch"ers. Moving this entire convo there now. 22:34, 14 March 2006 (CST)

Summary of my thoughts: -PanSola 22:47, 14 March 2006 (CST)
 * 1) I still support a numeric system, for sorting purposes.  When Anet release Campaign 10823 "Gwen's Counter Attack", people might not remember which campaign 10372 refers to anymore, or which number was "Attack of the Frog", but at least those info are readily available on the wiki, and the category's own page can/should mention the official title of the compaign anyways.
 * 2) I still support a short-hand (originally "Ch" vs "Chapter").  Since there is no H in Campaign, I propose to just use "C" (which was also a proposed shorthand for "Chapter" in the previous vote but got defeated by "Ch").  Let's keep things concise and to the point.  Prophacies would be C1, Factions would be C2, Gwen's Counter Attack would be C10823  (at which point we might want to pad Prophecies to C00001 for sorting purposes, but now we got a stabbing bot to do all the tedious crusades!)
 * 3) Using "C0" to refer to core is a possiblity, definitely helps sorting (usually letters get sorted after numbers, which might not be desirable).  However I do not have strong opinion on this issue, and wouldn't mind Core being used instead of C0.  For the purpose of skill box templates though, I would like to display core skills as "C0", even if for everything else we use "Core".  "C0" will auto-link to Chapter 0 which is currently a reirect to Core.  Doing it differently makes my skill box template more convoluted.
 * 4) I like using suffix system, "Monk skills (C1)", instead of "Monk C1 skills" or "Monk Campaign 1 skills".


 * There is one, admittedly convoluted, objection to a purely numerical treatment to the champtaigners -- we assume that their progression will be linear. However, what if after c4 we have a fork in the story, with c4.1 and c4.2 being in alternate universes? Would our elaborately constructed schema just fall to bits then? 23:05, 14 March 2006 (CST)
 * I thought that was the ENTIRE POINT of Anet's change from using "Chapter" to using "Campaign", so they are no longer perceived as one following the other, so that players don't think they are barging into the middle of something if they didn't get the original Guild Wars. So unless they release two campaigns at the same time, or unless an alternate universe actually happens in the real world and this GuildWiki actually crosses the boundry and exists (and remained synced) in both universes, I don't see a problem with the number system. -PanSola 23:13, 14 March 2006 (CST)
 * To clarify, the campaign released after Campain 4, would be campaign 5. The campaign released after comapign 5, would be campaign 6.  It doesn't matter if 5 and 6 are forks of 4 and exist in conflicting alternate universe, or that the one released after 6 is set 1000 years before Prophecies.  Unless, of course, Anet decides to call them Campaign 4.1, 4.2, and -10 respectively. -PanSola 23:13, 14 March 2006 (CST)


 * The problem, in a nutshell, is this: Anet doesn't call them C1, C2, etc., so the question of how they will number the 1000 year prehistorical campaign simply doesn't arise. They, perhaps wisely, give them textual names, so the difficult to number prequel campaigns might just be called "The Charr Menace" or "Attack of the Crones" or whatever. In the past you have been very keen on sticking to the terminology Anet themselves use, so I am a bit surprised that you are willing to chart new waters in this case. 23:18, 14 March 2006 (CST)


 * ANet do identify them by numbers, at least as long as the official name hasn't been decided or anounced. See Chapter Three. But: Since all campaigns are independent, the order not irrelevant, or at least not crucial. Me might as well sort alphabetically. -- 23:34, 14 March 2006 (CST)


 * First of all, I don't think there is going to be a question about numbering campaigns. You had one, and my answer is I don't think there is going to be one.  It is of my opinion, that they changed from "Chapter" to "Campaign" to remove suggestions of in-game timeline/order correlation between their releases.  Thus, my opinion leads to the conclusion that, campaigns will be numbered in the order they are released.  In my opnion, it is not a problem at all to number a prequal as campaign 7.  It is the 7th campain released for GuildWars, it might not be Chapter 7 in the story.  In my opinion.
 * I agree that "the question of how they will number the 1000 year prehistorical campaign" simply doesn't arise, in the exact same manner that "the question of how they will number campaigns that create a fork in the story" does not arise. I believe they are all non-issues.  I believe they will all be integers sequential in the order they were released. But since you think one case might be of issue, I brought up the other one and illustrated how I think they would all be non-issues.  AND if I am wrong and they DO use weird numbers like 4.1 and/or -10 for their campaign numbers, I would unconditionally go with their number system.
 * And if they do something weird in another way, numbering some campaigns and not numbering some other campaigns, then my positions is this: I judge it so extremely unlikely, that I am willing to assume it will not happen, and if the votes I favor prevailed, but I am proven wrong in the end, we will flesh out a new labeling system.
 * Because I believe the scenario is so unlikely, and the expedience of ignoring this scenario so great, that I am willing to take the big risk of having a major restructure of campaign tagging system for campaigns if somewhere down the line there is a campaign that suddenly doesn't get a number.
 * I remain keen on stiking with in-game terms. I am not advocating that information about "Gwen's Counter Attack" campaign be in the article "C10823".  I am advocating that "C10823" be used as a shorthand and sorting mechanism for categories related to the "Gwen's Counter Attack" campaign. -PanSola 23:42, 14 March 2006 (CST)


 * The big, and potentially huge, problem with non-numerical sorting is the fact that all of our article names get very long:
 * Monk Skills (C7) and
 * Monk Skills (Attack of the Crones)
 * are two altogether different breeds, if you need to type them repeatedly. I once made the mistake of creating a category called Category:Tomb of the Primeval Kings maps and I hated myself ever after when I needed to type it.
 * Additionally, numerical ordering automatically orders the campaigns chronologically, so we do not have to manually edit every page to make sure Prophecies comes before Factions.
 * We need to weight the additional work against the potential benefit of having the real names there.--Xeeron 23:57, 14 March 2006 (CST)


 * I'm against making up and prominently displaying to Guild Wars players nomenclature that we are essentially making up, in the form of c1, c2, c3, etc. Sure, it happens sometimes, but when it's relatively easy to avoid I think we should.  The game is called (ok, sort of subtitled) "Factions".  As far as I'm can tell, the actual order of release date is not extremely relevant to ArenaNet.  I see no reason to arbitrarily list things in release-date order (for instance, people don't list Star Wars in 4,5,6,1,2,3 order, generally, and usually talk about each film by name).
 * We can obviously have a page that discusses the release order, but it doesn't seem so inherently important that we should have every single skill, mission, explorable area, and NPC labeled with a number. That might be an extreme conclusion, but at least the areas should say what game they are part of!  (Amusingly, the Battle Isles are the only location in Core, I presume.)
 * As far as actually suffixing, I'm happy enough to see "Monk Skills (Factions)" or "Monk Skill (Core)". But I'm clearly opposed to using C1, C2, etc.  Those things will not mean anything to the average Guild Wars player, especially if we hit a point where there are half a dozen different standalone games that ArenaNet refers to by name.  The needs of the players outweigh the needs of the GuildWiki authors.  (In general, anyway.  Not to be taken to extremes.)
 * --JoDiamonds 02:04, 15 March 2006 (CST)


 * Ok, from all I heard here, the trend seems to go towards suffix. If you disagree and want a vote, shout now. However, there is also the issue of what kind of suffix and the huge majority that existed for Ch2 does not seem to be there for C2. Therefore I would like to reopen the vote for the suffix that is to be used from now on. --Xeeron 02:27, 15 March 2006 (CST)

My reasoning for changing my vote as compared to the old vote: As JoDiamonds has argued very well above, C2 will mean nothing for GW players. This used to be different when we all thought the new campaign would be refered to as Chapter 2 mainly. For me, Ch2 seemed to be reasonably close to Chapter 2 to have a first time wiki user immediatly understand what Ch2 means. Now that the new campaign is refered to as Factions by ANet and the appropriate abbriviation is C2, I dont feel that the user would be able to make the connection C2->Factions that easy anymore. Therefore, while it definitly will mean more work for us, I have changed my opinion about this matter. From the discussion above I get it that others are feeling this way as well, therefore I reopened the vote.

Please do not vote for other if you feel that the numercial suffix should be Ch2 or Cn2 or something else, vote for C2 instead. The same goes for Campaign:Factions vs GW:Factions or whatever alphabetical version we come up with. This should be the decision between numerical and alphabetical only. --Xeeron 02:40, 15 March 2006 (CST)

Currently, if we create a new PvE character, we see from left to right (English reading order) the Prophecies Campaign first, then the Factions Campaign. Open the skill menu and sort skills by campaign, we see Core Skills ordered before Prophecies Campaign. While the rest is speculation, I speculate that on 3/24 when we sort skills by campaign we will see Factions Campaign appear under, not above, Prophecies Campaign. I also speculate that when the third campaign comes now, no matter what its name is, when you want to create a campaign 3 PvE character, the choice will be ordered after both Prophecies campaign and Factions campaign. Thus, to players who purchase multiple campaigns, the order among the campaigns will have meaning. Thus C2, C7, C193, and C10824 WILL have some meaning for GW players. It might be that the some meaning does not have sufficient significance or utility to justify using the number as category tags, and the community shall make its judgement by the votes casted here, but some meaning exist. That, is my speculation. -PanSola 05:50, 15 March 2006 (CST)
 * BTW, if the general feeling is that campaign number/order has no meaning to GW players (contary to my opinion/speculation), then for skills by campaign and armor set listings we should sort the campaigns alphabetically too. -PanSola