User talk:Quizzical/Defense Wins

Offense FTW
If defense is so important, and offense only a second thought, then why do Ursan builds now rule the game. And yeah, I also think there is too much Ursan in the game, so let's not start that rant. Still Ursan is a purely offensive form. Add healing, and nothing stops it. You don't win by defense; you win by killing. Consider also that there is no better defense than dead opponents. If you find you need more defense, then either your healing is not what it should be - fix your monks - or you understanding of what entails a good offense is lacking. You do seem to believe that offense is nothing more than damage. This is most untrue. I have completed the entire game, done all missions (and dungeons) on Normal Mode (that's what the game calls it!) and hard mode, and have also vanquished most of the areas. All done solo, with heroes and henchies. There is no area that can't be resoundingly beaten by a good offense. - Havoc   (Talk|Contribs) 11:45, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, in the current PvP Meta, you need quite some sick defense in order to not get an exploded Monk. Didn't read the article, tbh, so dunno if it was specific to PvE... And Ursan wins cause it gives you an AoE KD, armor ignoring spammable dmg for offense. And for defense? 20 armor, 200 hp and a SHITLOAD of Weakness. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  11:52, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The article was PVE specific. And despite your excellent points on Ursan, it is the most offensive oriented skill group in the game.  AoE KD's are offensive, not defensive.  Knocking someone on their butt in real life will earn you an assault charge. It also does AOE damage. The weakness also gives nearby allies a bonus on their attacks, so it is both defensive and offensive. And 150 armour ignouring damage anyone? repeatabel evere few seconds?  That is why people run Ursan. For the offense. Or do you see alot of Ursan's hiding at the back of the party? - Havoc    (Talk|Contribs) 12:19, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Why it is ran != Why it is good. Flare is ran too, but it isn't good. It is good because it has both a crapload of offense, and defense. I'm not disagreeing with you, just stating Ursan also has defense. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]--  (s)talkpage  12:22, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay. I didn't actually want to argue that point, since it obviously has some defensive value. That is also not the point to my post, it was about the value of offense ingame. Why is it, that when you write the word "Ursan" on this wiki, people see only that one word? Havoc    (Talk|Contribs) 12:29, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Interesting to note is that, in HM elite missions, Ursan groups epicfail for the exact reasons you mentioned: No matter their massive damage, most Ursans are casters who, even with the bonus from Ursan, are squishy. If you don't do some serious defense, the HM mobs eat through ursans faster than the ursans do. But then I have to say, this only has to do with stupid ursans. I guess, ultimately, what you need isn't really offense or defense, but a strategy to use whatever offense or defense you choose to bring.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]]Entrea  [Talk]  15:45, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * As Vipermagi points out, Ursanway is very heavy on defense. In addition to the healers, most of the party has +20 armor, +200 HP, and mobs are essentially permanently weakened and often knocked down (and hence interrupted).  That's a party heavier on defense than most non-ursan parties, and that's why it is effective.  Indeed, that is why ursan blessing is so ridiculously unbalanced:  it not only has extremely high damage outputs, but also quite a lot of defensive stuff.
 * Take out all of the defensive capabilities but leave the same damage as before, and ursanway would no longer work in many hard mode missions. If one were instead to cut the damage of the ursan skills by half without touching the defensive capabilities of it, it would work scarcely less well than it does now.  It would be used a lot less, but that would mainly be because it was slower, and not because it no longer worked.  Ursan blessing is just another piece of evidence in favor of my point.
 * In easy mode, you can often get away with being completely reckless and still win. In hard mode, if you just try to trade hits with the mobs, in many places, they'll kill you before you kill them.  That's why you have to dampen their damage, bring some healing, etc.  Saying that you've beaten missions and vanquished areas doesn't, by itself, say that much.  If you relied heavily on consumables and unbalanced pve-only skills, then it effectively wasn't hard mode.  If you didn't use those, and never took heroes or henchmen that could blind mobs, weaken them, interrupt, remove hexes and conditions, heal your party members, increase armor, block attacks, etc., then perhaps you'll have a point that defense is irrelevant.  But I don't have to have ever watched you do anything in-game to know that you didn't do things that way.
 * If one avoids the usual cheats that act as crutches for incompetent players, there are trade-offs between offense and defense. There is an interval in this range in which the party will beat the mission.  It is quite common for players to go too heavily toward offense, and then fail because they have no means by which to keep themselves alive.  It is exceedingly rare for players to go too heavily toward defense, and then fail because they cannot kill the mobs.  If groups were routinely taking six healers on avoid combat and failing for the latter reason, I'd have written an article advocating the use of more offense.  Quizzical 19:37, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Now you're telling me how I play? I don't use cons or ursan.  I don't need them. In fact I am seldom found without Charging strike as my elite. Why? It's aggressive. You seem rather confused as to what defense is, and think that offense is only damage and nothing but damage. That idea is blatantly rediculous. Weakening or blinding opponents, or knocking them down are offensive acts. If you doubt that, then go outside and knock somebody on their buttocks, then poke them in the eyes for good measure.  Tell the police you were only defending yourself...  They won't buy it and neither do I.
 * You scream about defense, and then suggest offensive acts. Reminds me of Ghandi beating up reporters. I have beat missions and dungeons in hard mode without ursan or cons or "great defense", and it was fairly easy. Moderate defense (condition/hex removal/healing) is certainly a wonderful thing, and you may even be right about others neglecting it, but it doesn't replace a good offense, and nothing ever will. - Havoc   (Talk|Contribs) 21:36, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Well yes, if you define everything as offense, then of course you'll think that offense is important. To take your analogy, if you walk up to someone on the street unsolicited and try to "heal" him or "remove hexes" from him, that could well get you charged with assault, too.  Does that mean those are offense?
 * Why do you weaken or blind mobs? Is it to kill them?  Of course not.  It is to prevent them from killing you.  That is half the point of defense, and yes, it is very useful in some situations.  What I'm against is the people who want to do a lot of damage and nothing else.  If a character is built to do a lot of damage, and also blind or weaken mobs a lot, then that's the sort of balance I'm advocating.  It sounds like your disagreement is one of definitions, not one of substance.
 * Though if you have a way to usually beat The Eternal Grove with henchmen/heroes, without relying on pve-only skills, and without consumables, I'd like to see the strategy. Quizzical 22:36, 7 June 2008 (UTC)