User talk:Windjammer/Blood Healer Archive

10+1+1 myst, 12 blood, 8+1 earth, hax0r variation of my D/N order build, lets sploit mystic regen before the impending nerf! - better than this? pious haste, res, blood rit, dark fury, shadow strike etc in the last slot &mdash; Skuld 18:13, 14 December 2006 (CST)

edit: noticed you had mystic regen on the page, haha ^^ &mdash; Skuld 18:33, 14 December 2006 (CST)
 * yeah, that was BrianGs idea. He had also mentioned about using this as part of a team with Symbiosis.  If that were done I'd go N/W and take Healing Signet as the self heal to avoid the now hefty sac cost of Blood Renewal.--Windjammer 18:38, 14 December 2006 (CST)
 * what about the d/n? &mdash; Skuld 18:40, 14 December 2006 (CST)
 * it looks solid, plenty healing power plus the addition of orders. energy management looks a bit tight though.  hard to tell without playing it, and unfortunantly I don't have NF yet  :(  I should get it for xmas though  :)--Windjammer 19:03, 14 December 2006 (CST)
 * Yeah I was thinking about D/N too since you don't really need soul reaping, and mysticism can help with energy. So in actuality energy might be better on D/N. I hadn't looked through dervish skills yet to see what would be best, but Vital Boon came to mind.  Here's a rough idea I had been thinking of for N/D:

The optional Elite would be either Offering of Blood or Life Transfer based on testing whether you need more health regen or more energy. Vital Boon could be switched instead of Blood Renewal if the sacrifice is too intense. Man, I'm starting to think D/N would be better though, Arcane Zeal is a cool idea Skuld. Have you tested it to see how the energy works yet? Watchful Intervention is cool as well, both on yourself and teammates. It would provide a safety net in case your health gains get messed up. Skuld how many bonds do you think this build could maintain? Not sure how useful the signet is though, since the only enchant I'd want to lose would be Vital Boon. That would make for a hefty heal though. -- BrianG 23:26, 14 December 2006 (CST)
 * This is an fairly energy intensive build, and its playing style doesn't work well with the Mysticism energy bonus. The enchantments you have on yourself are typically all long duration enchants, and the bonus you get from them from Mysticism doesn't even cover their cost.  The use of Arcane Zeal would be a close call, and needs testing, but it looks to me that Offering of Blood would give stronger returns than Arc Zeal.  The centerpeices of this build are Blood Magic spells, making a Necro primary best.  The useful Dervish spells for this build (Mystic Regeneration, perhaps Vital Boon) keep like 97% effectiveness as a Dervish secondary with only 8 in Earth Prayers.  This build, at its current concept, works best as Necro primary.  It is more of a steal and heal concept that steals health from foes to fund the degen that results from Blood Bond.  The D/N idea seems best, to me, as an Orders build.  Orders skills take advantage of Dervish abilities and the Mysticism bonus because Orders are short duration enchants.  I don't think Orders would fit in this build, energy wise, as it has its hands full keeping vampiric hexes on all the foes and sacrificialy healing type enchants on your allies.--Windjammer 01:14, 15 December 2006 (CST)


 * Yeah, access to a superior blood rune is definitely an advantage of necro primary. I only left Order of Pain in there as I was still thinking about my team idea, but you're right it doesn't have much synergy with the build concept.  Maybe these 2 builds could work well together?  The dervish for orders and the necro for life battery.  They could even cast blood ritual on each other to help energy management.  Skuld, I don't know a thing about Team Arena, is there any potential here?  With maybe another Dervish for dealing damage, and.... symbiosis ranger? monk? thumper with symbiosis?  Dumb idea?


 * But anyway Windjammer what do you think of my suggested bar above? Offering of Blood for the elite slot, and switch out Order of Pain for Vital Boon or something?  Awaken the Blood is cool but it looks like it only provides an increase of 1 regen or degen on your blood skills, so it might be worth it to consider removing it so you don't have to worry about the increased sacrifice cost.  This gives you a lot more flexibility in your skill choices. -- BrianG 01:37, 15 December 2006 (CST)
 * P.S. I'm not sure about Unholy Feast since I think this build would be better to stay back a bit out of range, almost like a monk bonder, so it would be hard to get the full gain from this. Also its a bit expensive. -- BrianG 01:46, 15 December 2006 (CST)
 * Yeah, I must agree on the Unholy Feast. As I've been playing this build (or what I have of it right now) I'm finding Vampiric Gaze to be a very useful skill.  It has range and speed, great for a quick boost in health.  Plus when I was writing this build, looking through skills, Unholy Feast gives its range as in area, leading me to believe it was a wide range spell.  Is this not the case?  Should that skills description read nearby?--Windjammer 02:19, 15 December 2006 (CST)
 * No, in the area is the right term, but its not as wide range as it sounds ( see here: http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Image:Area_of_Effect_Birdseye.JPG ). To get the full benefit, you would have to be in the middle of a circle that size that has 5 foes in it. -- BrianG 02:33, 15 December 2006 (CST)

The discussion that used to be in the intro has been relocated here
I find it interesting that any viability this build might have had is completely countered by bringing Awaken the Blood and Blood Bond. Unless these are the only 2 skills you plan to play with? &mdash; Feurin Longcastle   01:54, 15 December 2006 (CST)
 * Feurin, I've suggested removing Awake the Blood, see discussion below. -- BrianG 02:24, 15 December 2006 (CST)
 * I dont understand how Awake the Blood counters a Blood Magic centered build that doesn't depend on sac spells. Please explain.--Windjammer 02:29, 15 December 2006 (CST)
 * I'm not sure what Feurin's concerns are, I was just trying to direct him to the discussion below. As for me, you do have 2 sacrifice skills which is a minor concern, but I'm not sure how much of a concern it would be since I haven't tested the build.  My suggestion was only that by keeping it you were limiting your selection of blood magic skills.  I really like Demonic Flesh myself.  If you are acting as a life battery, what better than a skill that increases the size of your battery? I'm not saying Awaken the Blood is not good, I'm just saying the attribute boost may not be worthwhile enough to justify the skill slot, increased sacrifice on 2 of your skills, and limitation on what other skills you can equip.  Just a thought though. -- BrianG 14:43, 15 December 2006 (CST)
 * The build I commented on originally contained several sac skills, which was unadvisabable with the minimal regen healing and with Awaken up. The new iteration is less problematic. Actually, upon looking at it, the saccing problem is still there.  BiP costs a whopping 50% of your max life per cast.  BR works out to 37%.  Having BR, BB and LS up all at once works out to a net 7 regen, or 14 life per second.  Relying on Gaze/Insidious/Parasitic is tricky at best, since they're not reliable and for two of those skills mostly uncontrollable by the player.  Removing Awaken shouldn't be a variant; adding it to the skill lineup should be.  &mdash; [[Image:Pure_Strike.jpg|20px|User Page]] Feurin Longcastle  [[Image:Pure_Strike.jpg|20px|User Page]] 02:12, 16 December 2006 (CST)
 * I am inclined to agree now. A build using a dervish secondary is being developed that reduces this builds dependence on Vampiric hex spells, making it a little more straightfoward.  See Pros and Cons section for more info on this build.
 * I've replaced AtB will Well of Blood. Thanks for the removal suggestion, I think you are right, it significantly increases this builds viablity.  I can't beleive I didn't realize it earlier.  See the bottom of small but significant change section for details.--Windjammer 13:31, 16 December 2006 (CST)
 * Yeah, I'm thinking about strongly suggesting on the build page that the users take an optional secondary to make Blood Renewal unecessary. Warrior, Monk, and Dervish all have good options there.  I'm also really liking the Monk and Dervish lines, because they have skills that help this build do what it is supposed to do: heal.  Both lines include skills that work well with minimal attribute input too.  I am just relectant to catagorize the build as one secondary or another because at least a couple of them have good skills for this build.

Small but significant change
What do yall think about a setup like the following bar. It uses Blood Magic, Curses, and for energy management Soul Reaping. Parasitic Bond is now included as a companion to Life Siphon and looks like it would function very well with it. It gives you a health boost when the hexee dies (since you will still be degening from Blood Bond, but not regening without that Life Siphon). It also gives the same boost if foes have hex removal. Additionally, it can serve as a cover enchant on Life Siphon, it is cheap, fast, and efficient. It works well with LS because you can alternate casts, as one is recharging you can cast the other. With that extra health, I see no need for Life Transfer, I guess you could still carry it, but now the build has more options as to the elite slot. This build would also take full advantage of Awaken the Blood.

Elite suggestions:
 * Feast of Corruption: With two fast long duration hexes, you will probably have one on everybody. :)
 * Reaper's Mark: More degen for them but just as important, energy for you.
 * Offering of Blood: You could do this, but I'm liking R's Mark better now.
 * Life Transfer: Still an option. With FoC its hard to choose for a power vampiric heal.
 * Blood is Power: Why not? A new take on the BiP.


 * Parasitic Bond is not bad, a cover hex is always nice. What would your Curses attribute be set to?  I think for my Mystic Regeneration variant though, I wouldn't want to spread out the points to curses as well.  Reaper's Mark is really cool... perfect energy management skill for this build I think.  I don't know how I missed this when looking through the Soul Reaping stuff.  I love the short recharge too.  Plus, if you are sticking with Awaken the Blood, you might not want to deal with the sacrifice on Offering of Blood.  Here's what my variant would look like now:

I really like how this is shaping up (at least on paper). Not sure which skill I would swap out for a Res Sig though, possibly vital boon. Now I just have to go through the hassle of levelling up a new character since I don't actually have a necro to test this. -- BrianG 15:22, 15 December 2006 (CST)
 * LOL, im doing the same thing right now, leveling up a necro. This is the last time I work on a build that I don't already have a character for  :).  That build looks pretty sharp, lots of enchantment to fuel the regen that is fueling the Blood Bonding.  It looks like a safe build too, with lots of health and energy management.  It may even be able to swap R's Mark for BiP and Vit Boon for Watchful Intervention, giving your party more benefit.--Windjammer 15:41, 15 December 2006 (CST)

Removed Awaken the Blood from original build. After looking over attribute benefits breakdown, I have to concede with everyone's suggestions that it be removed. It has been replaced with Well of Blood to further improve this builds role as a support. I have also rearranged attribute to obtain maximum benefit of point usage considering the skills used.--Windjammer 13:11, 16 December 2006 (CST)

Replaced Life Siphon with Shadow Strike. The build now has a set of skills that maximize use based on the level of foes health. SStrike is an opening offensive skill and for any foes above 50% health. Vampiric Gaze can be spammed along with it and then used on foes as they drop below 50%. Parasitic Bond can be placed as death becomes imminent for your foe; it is fast to cast and cheap so this should never be a problem.--Windjammer 05:49, 17 December 2006 (CST)

Pros and Cons
NOTE: it just occured to me that some might not want to read 3 paragraphs of stuff. So here's the cliff notes. This build tries to act as both a healer and a battery using primarily the Necromancer Blood Magic skills and, perhaps, assisted by a Dervish secondary's Earth Magic skills. It is basically a support role. It probably can't replace a Monk, but it does provide powerful healing and can support one. Additionally, it has battery skills to further assist the Monk and other spellcasters. It uses Vampiric Degen skills, to one degree or another, to help fund the cost of Blood Magic spells. It is enchantment heavy, so the Dervish skill Mystic Regeneration assists this build immensly. Skip to the bottom to see some builds developed so far.--Windjammer 02:23, 16 December 2006 (CST)

I wanted to bring up pros and cons of this build for a moment. There are builds similar to this one (Eg. [Build:N/any IV Transfusion] ), but it seems none that are focused on using the Blood Magic line to allow the build to function primarily as both a healer and a battery (The build above is offense oriented). I want to see if people think a build such as this is worthwhile.

Pros:
 * Blood Bond: The primary heal of this build. It is as efficient and powerful as anything from the Monk line, with two caveats.  It puts degen on the caster, and it must remain active for about twice as long as similar Monk regen spells to reach its full potential.  The upside to this skill is that it is fast and cheap, with a long duration, and could easily be placed on the whole party if the degen issue is solved.
 * Blood Ritual or Blood is Power: The battery skills of this build. These skills, along with Blood Bond, give the build its unique potential, it is able to regen both health and energy on the entire party.
 * Vampiric skills: This build was originally a steal and heal concept, that used the entire Blood Magic line to steal foes health, then use that to fund its healing and battery skills. Most of the skills it used to do this are relatively cheap enchantments and hexes of long duration that can be used no matter the foes health.

Cons:
 * Blood Bond: As the primary heal, it lacks immediate power. It is not a spike heal and not even as powerful as Healing Breeze on a per second basis.  This skill must work over time.  When allowed to do this it is extremely efficient, but without spike healing this build will function best as a support to a Monk.  Additionally, this skill inflicts degen on the caster.
 * Sac and degen costs: The efficiency of the heals and the ability to act as a battery are strenghts of this build, but these have a cost. The build has costly sacrifices to use its Battery skills and degen to fund its healing.
 * Vampiric Skills: These are being used to fund the sac and the degen; an extra bonus in that the build is doing damage at the same time it is healing and batterying. There is a downside however.  The use of these skills is essentially an extra moving part.  The build now must attend to having its hexes active to fund its healing and whatnot.  It may not be able to react quickly enough to quick turns of the battle.  The build must be played with foresight and deliberateness.  A virtue to be sure, but it will somewhat lack the athleticism and power of simpler, quicker builds.
 * Enchantment and Hex dependent: The build depends on hexes and enchantments. Enchantment removal is the worst enemy, because its healing and battery skills are all enchants.  Hex removal is actually not so much of a problem because a skill like Parasitic Bond can be used as a cover hex, and actually benefits the caster greatly when it is removed.

In summation, the build can heal, battery, and damage, and is very efficient. It makes use of all its skills, and though it is multi-talented, it is not all over the place; it keeps the color within the lines, so to speak. On the downside, it funds its talents at the price of its own health, and does not work with immediate power. It takes vision to play well and is a HoT DoT (and EoT :) build. With the current downsides, there are some interesting developments in the build, however. See User:BrianG's N/D skillbar above. The use of the Dervish line frees this build from having to depend heavily on Vampiric skills to fund its sacrifice and degen. If this could make it quicker and easier to use as a health and energy battery, it might be worth it. I'd like some comments on having this build be a N/D and whether or not people find a build that fills a support role as a health and energy battery worthwhile. I will reposte BrianG's skillbar here for you to see and add some of my own suggested changes below it.

As you can see, his skillbar is very safe, it fulfills both the healing and battery aspects of the build, and has plenty of health and energy management. Additionally it still uses the steal and heal concept. After thinking about it a bit, I developed the following bar.

My skillbar is not quite as safe, it does not have the energy management skill that the other one has and has Awaken the Blood paired with costly sac skills. However, with a high soul reaping, and considering the low casting cast and long duration of its enchants, I'm hoping energy management will not be an issue. With the health income from Mystic Regen and the builds Vampiric skills, I'm hoping the sac costs and degen of BiP and BBond can be covered. I'm a fan of Awaken the Blood, though it may need to be removed. I like Life Siphon paired with Parasitic Bond, the two hexes work very well together. Vamp Gaze is an excellent quick health spell. Blood Renewal, even with AtB, is more than worth its sac cost, and is very cheap. His skillbar may be just right, and mine may be stretched to thin, or the sweet spot may lie somewhere between them. Regardless, I'm thinking an N/D, with Mystic Regen, may be the best direction for this build considering it is enchantment heavey. I wanted to hear what everyone else thought though (I am going to continue on the N/any direction though, considering I'm not getting NF until xmas :)--Windjammer 02:04, 16 December 2006 (CST)

I just realized my above build had a curses skill in it. Bleh. Replace that skill with Aura of Thorns maybe, I kind of liked that enchantment for when foes get into the backfeild and you need a quick escape. It is also just a decently long duration enchant to fuel Mystic Regen.--Windjammer 03:07, 16 December 2006 (CST)

I just thought of another idea, the health Boost from Vital Boon is minimal, making it not a big liablity with sac costs, and you get a big health boost when it ends, making it and Renewal of Blood great with sac costs because you can use the sac spell just befor you see Renewal or Vital about to end, so as soon as you pay the cost in health, you get a big health boost :D. Except for the presence of AtB and the absence of R's Mark, this bar is about the same as BrianG's. It is a little safer on health management (relative to my previous post), but still keeps the power boost of AtB (I think it is worth it) and the utility of BiP. After using BiP, you will sac like 50% of your health, so you need to make sure you have that much, and you need to watch for Blood Renewal or Vital Boon being in its final seconds (when the icon starts to flash). BiP is very fast cast so you can get it off just before VB or BR is going to end, and then get a nice boost in health to pull you out of the danger zone after paying the hefty sac cost. If you are uncomfortable with the massive health cost and want to drop AtB to make it a bit more manageable, I suppose you could replace that skill, but with foresight I think it is worth it.--Windjammer 10:46, 16 December 2006 (CST)

Random Arena Testing
Hey Windjammer. I was excited to try this but just didn't have time to work on leveling up a new character (I already have 3 on the go that are not at 20 yet). So I decided to just make a PvP necro to start testing the idea. I just had to use my ritualist to earn some faction to unlock the elites and skills that I was missing. I stayed up till 5:30am playing RA and adjusting the build (my girlfriend was not impressed haha). Here is my feedback (some of which mirrors your pros and cons above):

1. The build was very effective when teamed with a monk, easily earning a gladiator point and many flawless victories. I believe the team lineup for that was me, monk, paragon, and assassin. You're right that "The build must be played with foresight and deliberateness." I found that as long as I really concentrated on making sure I was pre-emptively applying my enchantments, things went well, but if I was killed, it was usually difficult to re-establish stability.

2. Without a monk this build had problems providing enough healing against heavy pressure. The lack of any kind of spike heal was frustrating at several points in time when I had the energy to help someone, but no skill to use as they already had blood bond on them. I can't really think of a solution to this, other than Signet of Pious Light but I'm not sure if there is a way to fit this into the build, and I'm not sure it would be worth it without higher Earth Prayers.

3. I quickly removed Blood Ritual, for a few reasons. Firstly, the "touch" range of this skill was frustrating as I was generally trying to stay out of combat. What would sometimes happen is that I would run into the fight to ritual someone, and then sacrifice health and attract aggro at the same time. Also it was frustrating wasting time running to people when all my other skills were ranged. Also, I found people didn't really ping when they were low on energy so it was hard to decide when to use it. I had Res Signet in the place of demonic flesh, so at this point I swapped out Blood Ritual for Demonic Flesh, and decided to focus exclusively on the life battery concept.

4. For the elite, I tested Reaper's Mark and Life Transfer. Life Transfer provided a ton of health but the downtime was frustrating. Reaper's Mark was really fun and the quick recharge on it meant that it was usually ready to throw on someone my team was spiking, or someone about to die so I would gain the energy. I found with this build that I usually had plenty of energy, especially with this elite, so I'm open-minded to other elites that would maybe help the weakspots of the build.

5. I realized after I finished playing for the night, that I think I have too much duplication of functionality with my skill choices. Vital Boon and Demonic Flesh both increase health, and Mystic Regeneration and Blood Renewal both increase health regen. So if I can find skills that help this build's weak spots, I would switch out some of these. If I take Blood Renewal and Demonic Flesh out, then there are no sacrificing skills, and I'd feel more comfortable putting in Awaken The Blood. I also like your idea of timing a sacrifice right before Vital Boon ends. I didn't really think of that but it did seem to work well that I had occasional heals from Vital Boon and Blood Renewal ending.

6. You really need a res signet for RA at least, so I think the build really has to be trimmed down to 7 skills. The problem is, for Mystic Regen to be effective, you ideally need 4 enchantments, so once you factor in an elite and blood bond, you only have room for one more skill.

So to summarize, the weak spots of the build are as follows:

1. No spike heal. Options: Signet of Pious Light. Any other ideas? 2. No defensive or kiting skills, so if you take aggro, you usually die. Like you, I was thinking of some Dervish enchants here. Options: Aura of Thorns or Veil of Thorns. Armor of Sanctity? Spoil Victor might be an interesting Elite idea, to reduce melee pressure and/or increase damage. Conviction would be cool for extra armor or a backup when you lose enchants, but there isn't really much room for non-enchantments. 3. Of course, Mesmers can really mess up your enchantments. There isn't any real way around this that I can see.

Here is a suggested skillbar based on these concerns. Let me know what you think:

Signet of Pious Light would solve the spike heal problem, and would also give you a way to end Vital Boon and Aura of Thorns if you wanted.

The optional slot would be your elite. Ideas: Reaper's Mark, Life Transfer, Spoil Victor, Soul Leech. Blood is Power would work really well for certain environments with a more co-ordinated team, but right now I'm focusing on RA.

<BR>Its starting to look like this build could work as a Dervish too, and would then get access to some cool Mysticism skills. Let me know what you think though. -- BrianG 13:39, 16 December 2006 (CST)


 * Awesome! some PvP testing, I'm really interested in how this build works in that aspect, as it is somthing of a cross between a [Build:N/any BiP Necro] and a [Build:N/any IV Transfusion] . I never do PvP cause I havnt had the game for that long and I'm still very busy trying to at least complete the factions campaign, though I am continuously getting sidetracked with build research.  I am now in love with the idea of Vital Boon and Blood Renewal with this build as they both are both enchants of moderate duration that give health boosts as they end, giving plenty of oppurtunity to safely utilize BiP or other sac spells.  I think you are on the right track with signet of pious light, it seems the be the only option for a spike heal with this build.  It also works great with vital boon and blood renewal, as it allows you to end them prematurley, getting their benefits immediatly.  It would take some coordination though, as I assume SoPL strips the last enchantment cast.  Losing Mystic Regen would not be that big a problem, but you would prefer VBoon or other enchant is the one getting stripped.  Aura of Thorns is probably the only choice as a kiting skill.  I am also not favoring Awaken the Blood as a staple of this build anymore, despite the fact I clung to it stubbornly.  Considering the attribute - benefit ranges of the skills this build uses, AtB is not generally worth it.  This build is shaping up to look really good!!!--Windjammer 14:06, 16 December 2006 (CST)

P.S. As an afterthought here, in PvP this build may work better as D/N. Though I don't have experience in that aspect, I assume in PvP there isn't there pure amount of dying going on there is in PvE, making acces to Mysticism more valuable than having Soul Reaping. Additionally, with a skill like Signet of Pious Light combined with skills like Blood Renewal and Vital Boon, your are going to get great returns from Mysticism. Additionally, you will still get good benefits from your Blood Magic skills such as BiP and Blood Bond with that attribute as low as 8. For PvE, however, I still think Necro primary is best considering the benefit of Soul Reaping and increased Blood Magic attribute. If testing proves D/N has the power in PvP, you may consider starting a build stub for the D/N PvP sister build to this one.--Windjammer 14:25, 16 December 2006 (CST)
 * Yeah thats what I'm thinking as well. What did you intend the build for, PvE?  A Blood bonder would be awesome in PvE of course.  The only reason I was testing it in RA was due to the lack of a PvE Necro.  I'm in the same boat as you, since I haven't been playing long and haven't gotten very far in Factions.  Keep getting distracted by build experimenting, and now I have even more PvE to do with nightfall.  I've been starting to lean towards PvP more, because it is so time consuming being a PvE build experimenter due to the gold cost for armor, skills and cap sigs, plus the time it takes to progress far enough to get all the elite caps I need.  Ughhh.  I really wish they would make Balthazar's faction usable to get skills for PvE characters.  Its so frustrating trying to enjoy both areas.  But anyway, Soul Reaping and Reaper's Mark worked way better than I thought they would in PvP, I was surprised at the lack of energy problems.  But the main issues are aggro and lack of spot healing.  I just wish there was an elite that could solve the aggro problem.  Something like Vengeful Was Khanhei but for blood magic.  I'll have to do some more testing to figure out if there is a way to make the necro primary work in PvP.  If not, I'll try D/N next (it would probably be similar to Skuld's suggestion), and eventually make a PvE necro to take advantage of this build. -- BrianG 14:53, 16 December 2006 (CST)