User:Entropy/bureaucrat

This page is for recommending users who would be good candidates for filling a Bureaucrat position. Please do the following:


 * 1) Create a new header with the user's name, talkpage, and contribs (like an RfA).
 * 2) Explain why you think the user would make a good Bureaucrat. More is better: I am looking for a detailed explanation, not just "he's a nice guy". Try to give some concrete examples.
 * 3) Notify the user on their talkpage that you recommended them. This isn't a formal process with acceptance, rejection, and voting, but it is just common courtesy to know people are talking about you.
 * 4) Solicit your friends, friends of the recommended person, and the community at large to comment on the recommendation: do they agree? disagree? have other comments or concerns? Place your thoughts under an appropriate subheading. As with the original poster, please try to be as descriptive and thorough as possible with your comments; this is NOT a vote of any sort, so simply signing does me very little good.
 * 5) Discussion should preferably take place on this page. "Comments on the comments", or stuff that is inconsequential to the Bureaucrat-capabilities of the recommended person, should be relegated to the talkpage. Please don't spam unnecessarily on this page.

PanSola (Talk/Contributions)
Do I need to say anything? &mdash; Warw/Wick
 * To be honest, in this case, no. I am very, very well aware of PanSola and I believe almost everyone is, to be honest. Especially since April Fool's. ;) I would still prefer some more explanation if you'd care to give it though. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 06:49, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Alright. Pans been one of the best contrib'ers from the start, and has a total of more edits than Skuld (:O).. coding god.. Basically everything :P &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 06:57, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Fair enough.
 * Although Pan has unquestionable contributions and is probably one of the best (if not the best) tech savvy person on the wiki; I would like to know what you think of him as a "people person". Do you believe PanSola has what it takes to promote/demote sysops, decide whether to give bot status, be impartial and objective when judging sysop actions, and overall "speak on behalf of the GuildWiki community"? [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:17, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Approval

 * 1) Yes. 150%. Ditto. Agreed. What /\ said. Concordantly. Abra Kadabra. Affirmative. This was the first person I was thinking of when I saw this page, I was just so damn lazy to actually make it. Here's my vote of approval, 100% of good rellik goodness with 20% extra blue.
 * 2) PanSola is objective, fair, reasonable and helpful. And is extremely able to benefit the wiki with his knowledge of coding. As well as any other positive brought up above or elsewhere. When LordBiro was going to promote another user to bureaucrat, the first person that came into my mind was PanSola. I also do not see any issues with his ties to Wikia. He has shown he is capable of making logical and reasonable administrative decisions (1) and is always courteous and helpful when dealing with the other users (2). Combine this with his experience, and I fully trust that PanSola will be able to make the right decisions on any bureaucrat action.   --Shadowcrest  19:39, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I feel that I have to make a comment here...I initially refused the Bureaucrat position when Biro offered it to me, and recommended he consider PanSola instead. But Biro was...uneasy with that. I can not repeat the conversation as it's personal confidance, but I feel the need to dispel the notion that Pan was "already slated for the promotion" in Biro's eyes. Among users, yes, that was the feeling...with the management? Not so much. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 13:15, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Just wondering, was that a public conversation on the wiki? -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 19:23, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No, otherwise I would post a link to it. Private e-mail; unless Biro wishes it, I am sworn to secrecy. I was also advised at the time by...others that keeping quiet would be the prudent course of action. This is really all I can say (publicly), I'm sorry... [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 04:18, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That's fine, no worries. (-: -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 05:36, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Though I am perhaps less convinced than when I originally posted, I am still of the opinion that out of the current userbase Pan remains the best choice. --Shadowcrest  22:10, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) I've got to say yes on this as well. I could have sworn he was already a b.crat, at one point or another... I know I've treated him as such for a while. It just seems like a natural step-up for him, and I believe any change he might bring about as a b.crat would only be good, one way or another. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jïörüjï Ðērākō.>  .cнаt^  19:58, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 2) When I first started up on this wiki, Pan was the first admin that I became aware of.  I more or less look up to him for advice, help, and just as a general figure of authority.  I think he is more than qualified for the position.  I don't think I have ever seen him involved in a dispute where his own personal bias got in the way.  I think that his promotion would only make this wiki a greater place to be. -- [[Image:Isk8.png]]   (T / C)  02:23, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol, prog thought Pan was already an admin. :) &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 10:31, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Bcrat*. And yes, until about a week ago I thought Pan had been a bureacrat at least since I came here :) --[[Image:Progr.jpg]] - talk 15:24, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) Yes - absolutely 100% support. Random Time  05:33, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 2) Go go go. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 07:30, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 3) Same as Prog, thought u were one. You have my support =] Lยкץ๒๏ץ talk  12:18, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 4) Bandwagon time! Seriously, I do think Pan would make a good bcrat - my reasons echo mostly what Shadowcrest said above, so I won't repeat them.  The only concern that comes to mind is that he might be too busy with everything else that he does for the wiki/Wikia that he wouldn't have time for the bcrat duties, but I'm sure he can handle it.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 14:12, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 5) Weak approval. Pan has the qualities to be a good bcrat (I even mistook him as a bcrat once), but the times he is on is a little too erratic for me, sometimes he'll be on all day, sometimes he won't make an edit for a week. Just my 2 1/2 cents (with heads on both sides).--[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 18:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 6) Weak approval: basically, his erratic schedule is bad, but he has been active lately. He also has many of the qualities to become a bcrat. However, the fact that Biro chose Entropy and Pan's statement about not commenting on RFA's, I'm a little torn here. Cress Arvein [[Image:Cress sig.JPG]] 19:52, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 7) I would approve this user with fairly strong support. &mdash; Nova  [[Image:Neo-NovaSmall.jpg]] &mdash;  (contribs) 21:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 8) Comments on talk page show an understanding of the bureaucrat role that surpasses the combined understanding of pretty much everyone else posting. That knowledge, and the instinct to act on it, are tools that separate decent bureaucrats from great ones. - Auron 17:15, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 9) Granted, he's not much of a people person, but considering recent sysop mishaps, he's one of the few people who seems truly trustworthy in such a position of power.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]]Entrea  [Talk]  22:03, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Disapproval

 * 1) When it became apparent a while ago that we needed a new bcrat, Pan's name was the first to come to mind. With an in-depth understanding of code and software, Pan's expertise is invaluable to the wiki. Pan is one of the oldest of the current sysops which means he has a good understanding of how we do things and what kinds of ideas we have discussed and tried. Pan is level-headed has never struck me as biased towards any other contributors. However, since I have become a sysop, I have slightly revised my opinions. I noticed that Biro chose Entropy over Pan which said alot. Additionally I noticed that Pan has a tendency to start projects without discussion. The only reason that this doesn't usually come up is that no one really has an issues with these projects. Additionally, Pan himself points out that he rarely comments on RfAs, his activity is sporadic (and I thought the idea was to have a more active bcrat), and most importantly, he doesn't see the bcrat job as all it encompasses. The role of bcrat is technically just the person who promotes and demotes sysops and manages other user rights. However, we need a bcrat who can act as a super-sysop, arbitrating disputes between them and taking action if a sysops's actions are questionable. Such a person would have to be very active and keep and idea on the actions of all the sysops. Additionally, we need someone who can represent us to Wikia. I feel that Pansola is best suited for his current role of sysop. Pan handles alot of back-end administrative tasks such as helping us manage the new skins and introduce us to new features of the wiki. Basically, I don't think that Pan would make a bad bcrat but I feel like he's not the best person for the job. &mdash;♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 18:23, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "However, we need a bcrat who can act as a super-sysop, arbitrating disputes between them and taking action if a sysops's actions are questionable." Indeed here my beliefs and JediRogue's differ.  My values would push me towards leading GuildWiki back to the place where any random anon would have a right to step in and arbitrate disputes between sysops or even among Bcrats.  They wouldn't exactly have the direct power to do anything to the sysops/bcrats if they choose to not value the anon's attempt to mediate, but the spirit associated with GW:YAV would itself demand any Bcrats/sysops to not treat an anon trying to mediate a conflict any different than a Bcrat stepping in.  I believe even if Entropy and a second Bcrat gets into a fight, and I step down from my sysop position, I would still have a right in trying to help and arbitrate.  Thus, being a Bcrat is only special due to the ability to promote/demote.  Everything else can be done by any other people on the wiki (minus the rollback/sysop stuff), and I will not hesitate to exercise my right if the need arises and it comes to my attention. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 05:34, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed with Pan here, bureaucrats shouldn't be the only ones allowed to arbitrate user disputes. This is a community wiki and the it's the community job to keep the wiki a safe place. If a dispute gets out of hands and no one can do anything about it with talk, then sysop tools are required for banning/protection and a bureaucrat doesn't have any more tools to help in these situations. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 06:09, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * To be technical, Bcrats can get Sysops demoted (or they could, and we kind of expect to get that right back from Wikia eventually). So the Bcrat has the tools to protect the wiki from sysops (such as two sysops both refusing to backout from a revert war on an already protected page).  But yeah, that's just a technical detail. d-: -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 08:44, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Other comments

 * 1) Ties with Wikia make this a questionable promotion. - Auron 08:22, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you fear corruption, collusion, bias, etc. to taint PanSola's judgment? Or are there other implications behind your statement? I can understand somewhat how this could be a potential issue, but from what I have seen thus far I don't have much grounds for fearing PanSola would "go rogue" and act as Wikia's puppet or such. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:33, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I fear that he would be unable or unwilling to "speak on behalf of the GuildWiki community," particularly on issues such as a Guildwiki2. Lord Belar 19:48, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * He is a contributor on GWW as well, and he's on GW2W too (albeit with no major contributions). I believe he won't let bias get in his way in that regard; it's not like Wikia pays him or anything. If the worry is that he might start promoting Wikia staff here, can't they already do that for themselves? Aside from that, I don't see how he could do any [more] harm [then Wikia already has]. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> .cнаt^  19:54, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) PanSola here. Four separate comments I got:
 * 2) To date, I have not commented on a single RFA at GuildWiki, because I had felt I'm not really on top of what's going on in the community (95% of the ppl I am familiar with are over at GWW), and I had not felt the incentive to do the research to make comments on RfA's.  There are multiple ways to interpret/spin this behavioral fact and my (subjective) explanation, but in any case I think this should be taken into consideration.
 * Good point, but if you were a Bcrat, I'm pretty sure you would do the necessary research then.[[Image:Ereanorsign.jpg]]reanor 00:59, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Pan, while I think it is important for bureaucrats themselves to be able to resolve RFA's knowledgeably, consider that most of the other sysops throughout history (and even Tanaric/Biro himself) rarely if ever commented on RFA's unless it was a personal friend or enemy. I don't take it as a particularly black mark or anything. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 13:15, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) BTW, is it the Bureaucrat's job to represent the GuildWiki community?  I don't believe we had ever expected it of Nunix or LordBiro, whereas Gravewit may had represented GuildWiki on legal/paperwork stuff because he was the one getting us servers/bandwidth, but Gravewit didn't really represent the community either. To me, an admin's job only involves Prot, Del, and Ban; a Bcrat's job only involves promotion of other people.  Sysops and Bcrats had, historically, not been empowered as arbitrators/moderators/representatives in the community.  Certain individuals tend to end up being arbitrators/moderators just because of who they are, and their Sysop/Bcrat positions are more a result of them being who they are, as opposed to being a rank that allowed them to arbitrate/moderate.  My expectations of Sysops is the ability to properly use discretion when utilizing the tools of Prot/Del/Ban.  My personal expectation of a Bcrat is simply a good judge of character as to whether someone else should be promoted to a certain position.
 * That's true, but since we are now a part of Wikia, we need a spokesman to deal with those in higher positions, and that spokesman should probably be the B-crats because they are already carefully elected. However, taking that in consideration makes Auron's point more important.[[Image:Ereanorsign.jpg]]reanor 00:59, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Astute observation, and I wish things were still that simple; I could thusly promote quite a number more sysops and even bureaucrats without thinking twice. By the strict letter of GW:ADMIN and related policies, you are exactly right: that is the precise role of sysops and bureaucrats. However, I have increasingly felt as GuildWiki has...aged that admins and the bureaucrat(s) need to take on more responsibilities and be more active. These are rather vague roles, and vary wildly: I would never ask for Dr Ishmael's technical knowledge or your Wikia knowledge as prerequisites to the job, obviously. But I think that each sysop brings something unique with them to the team. All have their own areas of expertise which they use to help benefit the Wiki, with the most basic duties/abilities still being the most important: discretion to use the powers granted. Ultimately, sysops/bcrat does end up being the final "arbitrators/moderators/representatives in the community". Not all of us, of course, but the chain of command ends there. If a regular user displays such qualities, chances are they are due for a promotion. :)
 * What I want in a second bureaucrat is, above all, a person who can fill in for me while I'm gone. Such times are only bound to increase when I head off to college later this year. I feel that a person with the power to discipline the sysops (desysoption), make promotions, authorize bots, etc. should always be available in case emergencies come up. I have come close to missing a lot of rather important issues because I am not so active anymore; in most of them, bureaucrat being around, "a good judge of character as to whether someone else should be promoted to a certain position", would have helped. It is retroactive and conversely applied also: to look at a sysop's actions and reconsider if promoting them was such a good idea. Also, bureaucrat is the nominal representative to Wikia nowadays, mostly because we don't formally have an "owner" such as Gravewit anymore. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 13:15, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) Self-proclaimed Fact: I spend way more time on GuildWiki than I do playing GuildWars.  Self-proclaimed Fact: I sometimes take long breaks from GuildWars, months at a time.  Self-proclaimed Fact: I also sometimes takes long breaks from GuildWiki, months at a time (most recent being approximately April 07~Sept07, if I recall correctly).
 * Only the last one is a big deal, but then again, once you're a B-crat that should change. You should ask yourself if you'd be willing to be a B-crat, and then if you'd make those changes you need to be a decent one.[[Image:Ereanorsign.jpg]]<strong style="color: black;">reanor 00:59, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't care about Guild Wars at all, since I haven't been active there for...ever. I only recently logged on twice because 1) I needed to retrieve overdue birthday gifts and 2) someone requested me to. I do not believe admins or bureaucrats have any responsibility whatsoever to be up to date with the game. Heck, look at Tanaric. :D I would be more worried about breaks from GuildWiki, but because the bureaucrat would be filling in when I am not around, then it otherwise would not matter so much. If they said they would be absent for X months, then I would make sure to be more active in that time, and vice versa. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 13:15, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) Do we actually need another Bcrat?
 * I agree with Entropy's reasoning on the issue, so yes. If you'd be the one, at least this far, is still up to you.[[Image:Ereanorsign.jpg]]<strong style="color: black;">reanor 00:59, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No, we do not need another Bcrat. But I would like one. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 13:15, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 21:11, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Auron (Talk/Contributions)
I would like to throw out Auron's name as a possible choice for additional bureaucrat. Auron is a longtime contributor here, and even though you'll rarely see him posting nowadays, every once in a while he will step in to ban a vandal or respond to some post on his talkpage. He is almost always watching and actually fairly up-to-date with what goes on here. Auron's discretion is second to none and although some may view him as overly blunt, harsh, uncompromising, elitist, et cetera, it is hard to deny that he does not get the job done one way or another. Despite not being actively active, I would place Auron's loyalty to GuildWiki right up there with the likes of Tanaric or Karlos; he distrusts GWW and Wikia, and not simply out of spite either. Being both an administrator here and on GWW/GW2W (as far as I remember), Auron has experience in the duties of a sysop. He has also been involved in many, many disputes between users, both directly and as a third party judge. I trust Auron's judgment to always be for the betterment of the Wiki. You may even say that I learned many of my own attitudes and administrative ways from Auron. If there is any user who I think would serve as Bureaucrat closest to the way I do, it would be him. The difference between Auron and I is only a question of degree...of laxness and detachment, mostly.

Your thoughts, please, since I know this is bound to be controversial. Please note that this post does not count as an "endorsement" of any sort: Auron is still no more or less likely than PanSola or anyone else to be the preson I end up picking. (T/C) 14:11, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Approve

 * 1) I would trust Auron with the ability to judge who should or should not be promoted to sysops.  I am concerned about his people skills, but if any sysops decides to rage-quite GuildWIki forever due to a controversial demotion performed by Auron (as opposed to stick around and work the issue out), that sysop in question probably lacks the maturity we expect to be entrusted with the tools of Prot/Ban/Del anyways.  Hopefully, an additional sense of responsibility would have some mild degree of moderating effect upon the way he communicates his thoughts. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 05:51, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 2) I know many users don't agree with me, but personally I am sure that Auron would fit in perfectly. Even if people have disagreements with him he has always handled his sysop/bcrat tasks on all wikis well. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 06:13, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Disapprove

 * 1) Auron is a capable administrator who's great at putting his foot down and stating things as they are. He doesn't bullshit anyone and he's good at distilling an issue down to the core. Auron is always watching and rarely contributing (currently). Auron is another old hand which means he knows about old conflicts and how we resolved past issues. I generally trust Auron's judgment and agree with him on discussions that he cares to contribute to. I like Auron. However, Auron is extremely abrasive and rubs alot of people the wrong way. I feel like he would end up pissing alot of people off in a position where someone more diplomatic would be better suited. I also don't really know how well Auron would deal with interacting with Wikia. &mdash;<font color=#ff44aa>♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 18:31, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 2) Auron simply isn't active enough here, and doesn't seem to care very much about this wiki. Like May said below, what's the point of replacing an inactive bcrat with another inactive bcrat?--[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 18:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 3) From what I observed diplomacy is not his strong suit. With his attitude he may make a good sysop but wouldn't handle the additional duties of a bcrat well imo.--[[Image:AlariSig.png]] 19:32, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 4) Mild disapproval. I want to support Auron, but I really just can't bring myself to. It's not his judgment I don't trust nor the possible lack of time (being bureaucrat elsewhere); it's his lack of diplomacy. As a bureaucrat he would need to be able to deal with normal users, mediate sysop disputes, and be able to work with Wikia diplomatically; this doesn't seem to me like such behavior would come naturally. Sysop rights seem best suited for Auron. --<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="Steelblue">Shadowcrest 22:25, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Other comments

 * 1) I will not vote in this, because I am slightly bias. I also have to say that Auron isnt really an active contributor here, and what would the good be in promoting another inactive bcrat? :p. MAY 4 BCRATZ &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 14:14, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It really depends on what you mean by "active". I said, he does not post. But he watches constantly. That is much more than I can usually say for myself these days - I used to promise I'd at least check my talkpage and such once a day but I don't even do that necessarily anymore. So it's just what I'm looking for, someone who I can rely on to check in frequently and take action if they need to. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 14:28, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) As I've only really come into the community here in the past month or so, and Auron hasn't been very active during that time, I don't feel I know him well enough to make an informed comment here. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 14:19, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 2) I do not know him enough to make a good decision, but seeing as he is a bcrat already on GWW must cut into his time already, and I feel he will not be active here enough. Cress Arvein [[Image:Cress sig.JPG]] 19:52, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 3) I would disagree with any disapproval based on Auron's "lack of edits" on this wiki. Unfortunately similar criticism has been pointed as me too ("erratic") so my comment here can be viewed as pitching in my own favor as well, instead of being objective about the matter itself.  But really, what is the difference between a user who keeps an eye on the wiki everyday, versus a user who doesn't contribute to the article namespace and just do lots of spamming on other people's talkpages all day?  One is more visible than the other, but every minute somebody is spamming on talk pages, that is one minute that I know the person is not paying attention to important matters on the wiki.  Lack of edits by itself should be considered "neutral", since you can't really tell where on the wiki the person is (or isn't) keeping a watchful eye over. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 05:41, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

JediRogue (Talk/Contributions)
I would like to throw Jedi into this whole conglomerate. I for one, think she is an excellent sysop, as well as fairly active on this wiki. Longtime member, since Dec. of 2006, as far back as I can see, and has a strong understanding of policies and enforcement. She is also, more or less, fairly involved with the community here, and is familiar with alot of the contributors more-so than our other candidates. Her contributions speak for themselves, with a large majority of main space edits. She is extremely friendly and helpful to both new and old members, and I can't recall an instance where she has ever abused her powers, or gotten into confrontations. I think that if she were given the chance at being a Bureaucrat here, this wiki will only continue to prosper and grow. --   (T / C)  14:45, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Approval

 * 1) I believe that her stronger connection to the userbase of this wiki, is a definite strength of hers. -- [[Image:Isk8.png]] (T / C)  14:45, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 2) Apparently my views on what a bcrat should be is not shared with everyone, but this user has shown more in that department than the other nominees. Relations with the public and a seemingly even head are among the top.--[[Image:AlariSig.png]]

Disapproval

 * 1) Meh. I'll write my reasons up later. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 14:48, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 2) I love her as a user and a sysop, but she doesn't fit the bureaucrat role. I'm unsure of how much she understands the role, but I'm convinced she wouldn't act against the wishes of the community even if it were in the best interest of the community. - Auron 17:15, 21 May 2008 (UTC)