User talk:Tanaric/Archives

These are in roughly reverse chronological order&mdash;the most recent stuff is on the top.

Request for arbitration
'This is a formal request for arbitration. For unrelated parties, please be sure that you wish to be involved before commenting.'

I am requesting arbitration over a potential user dispute involving myself. My main issues are the ways offensive statements are made about my character in [ this edit] by Karlos. Also of issue is the same in [ this edit] and [ this edit]. Simply put: I would not have thought that these kinds of statements about me are supposed to be acceptable here.

Previously I have tried to assume good faith and not press it, as it is understandable that heated things are said in tense discussions (and a little forgiveness can go a long way) and I personally have a long and ugly history with him. However, from these and other edits, I am now losing the ability to maintain that faith of non-maliciousness. To be frank, I found many of the offensive statements in all 3 edits as gratuitous and out of line (and this is besides the provable inaccuracies), despite being technically related in some way to the issue at hand. Combined with other less blatant elements of our history, I tend to perceive an emerging pattern of harrassment.

As for hope of resolving this ourselves -- a while ago, I tried to address our major differences in straightforward discussion and reached a severe impasse. I have no reason to believe another attempt would fare differently (and it'd likely result in another ugly conflict), especially when considering how [ this request] was [ rejected]. Ever since, I have gone far out of my way in trying to minimize any potential headbutting, including: These steps have proven insufficient, as I still repeatedly find myself at severe odds with him. At this point, I feel that to go any further in this direction necessitates my simply leaving the wiki entirely.
 * avoiding areas where I cannot see how to deal with his practices (such as main article namespace)
 * restricting myself to my personal top priority issues (such as policy and how new users are treated) and strictly uncontroversial stuff like pointing out info
 * refraining from or greatly minimizing participation in many discussions just because he is involved
 * keeping any responses to him relatively short, simple and diffusive, even when it meant not defending myself from what I felt were baseless insults

I respectfully request specific answers/direction from arbitration:
 * 1) Should I or should I not respond in kind to defend myself? On the one hand, I feel that various comments and implications about my character demand it.  On the other hand, I think it's also obvious that the discussion would quickly degenerate into yet another inane fight.
 * 2) Are users expected to continually put up with comments from normal users that label them as childish, on a pride trip (second time I ask about this, btw), manipulative, insincere, or intent on stirring up arguments? Are they expected to put up with such from admins?
 * 3) Is the comment in question considered polite? If I am perhaps grossly misreading things just because of some language barrier issue, in what way?
 * 4) What could generally be expected if Karlos makes a similar comment in the future (about any user, not necessarily myself) and a similar request for arbitration is submitted?

Please note that I am not specifically asking for judgement about anybody's intentions, but rather about whether certain behavior is acceptable (a frequent point of confusion).

I'd also like to note these statements of possible relevance:
 * "I'm going to ban the next of [Karlos and some other user] to say anything to anyone in any tone I consider less than polite." —Tanaric 17:19, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
 * "Name calling, personal attacks and turning differences of opinion over Golems into an analysis of why this other person is evil are, to me, not only unhealthy ways of debating, but more seriously, they will leave the wiki with poorer content. Because instead of following a scientific system of determining how to classify undead, one guy scared the other with accusations of being a troublemaker and we ended up with one person's personal opinion of what undead are. I cannot believe how so many fail to see the danger in throwing around the label "troublemaker" at a contributor for questioning but readily accept another contributor's name-calling and harrassment as "normal behavior." I am trying to think of the long term consequences of open-debate and questioning vs the long-term consequences of allowing users to be harrassed and stereotyped and assaulted. Doesn't even seem comparable to me." --Karlos 04:17, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
 * "The issue here is when contributors decide to stray off-topic into attacks on others' character. Regardless of how stubborn Karlos is, I have yet to see him do that. If he does, I'll come down on him harder than my level 20 warrior comes down on the Charr." —Tanaric 19:14, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, --Rezyk 04:07, 3 April 2006 (CDT)


 * Karlos's response:
 * I have not assaulted your person nor called you names nor even proceeded to call what you did wrong. All I did was point out what you did. Which is turn a small thing into this crisis about whether or not Stabber will be banned. I said I am glad that people did not fall for your move and I am entitled to that opinion. If they had followed your lead, then you have every right to go and post that you're glad they took on your implicit request to undermine the existing policies on user conduct.
 * That is what I see at the heart of your post and that is how I read your text. I don't believe that is a malicious goal. You don't like the existing user policy changes and for some reason, your requests to change or clarify the policy have fallen on deaf ears. I don't like the fact that you have to basically "lurk" around the wiki until a situation arises between two users and then you post immediately to revive your demands for a change (in direct or indirect ways), and then blame me for you not contributing to the wiki anymore. I don't think that's a healthy way of getting your change to come about, but that's just me, you don't have to agree. I am truly amazed at how much effort you have put into logging and noting every comment to try and use them against me. I believe it is a great waste of your time and talents.
 * In the edits you have posted, I have never called you names nor ridiculed your character. That is all I have to say in defense. --Karlos 19:57, 3 April 2006 (CDT)


 * Tanaric's response:


 * I will not consider the quote from January, as it is no longer relevant. While the GuildWiki has no stated statute of limitations, I believe it is reasonable to ignore issues that happened almost a season ago. Further, I do not wish to encourage the hoarding of "dirt" on people. Everybody occasionally makes mistakes, and such hoarding would only make users less likely to contribute.


 * As far as Stabber's talk page, I think your warning was probably appropriate, though I personally would not have included the parenthetical on ban warnings. I believe that Karlos was somewhat out of line. Regardless of your history, he immediately assumed that you were attempting to use Stabber's talk page for policy changes in the wiki. From an impartial perspective, this is not apparent. I urge Karlos to exercise more restraint in the future, especially among users he's quarreled with in the past&mdash;as useful as such cynicism sometimes is in maintaining the wiki, it is clearly detrimental at times too, and, if it were to become widespread, it would become harmful to the wiki. Karlos, you yourself remarked against stereotyping in the quote Rezyk posted above. While out-of-context at the moment, it's still a good point.


 * However, Rezyk, you must admit that he was mostly correct about your prior editing habits. His assumption was not entirely without ground, and I believe, had you simply ignored his "Rezyk anti-establishment machine" comment, he would not have carried it further. The ":)" after said comment leads me to believe that he was being jovial. I often do the same sort of thing with people. Thus, while I urge Karlos to exercise more restraint, I urge you equally to take things less seriously. While your sense of humor may not coincide with his, try to recognize that he jokes around fairly often, even with those who have disagreed with him.


 * In short:
 * Karlos, write as if your text will be interpreted in the worst possible way, because it usually is.
 * Rezyk, interpret as if the text was written in the best possible way, because it usually is.


 * Moving on to the specific answers requested:


 * 1. As you said, a little forgiveness can go a long way. If something he says bothers you, I suggest a simple message like this on his talk page: "Karlos, I'd prefer it if you didn't do __________ in your responses to me. It seems confrontational to me, even if you don't mean it that way." I'd hope that Karlos would respond favorably to something like that.
 * 2. No, and no. As I said above, Karlos's comments (especially the second one on Stabber's talk page) were somewhat out of line. If it happens again, you're welcome to link me to the comment in question, so I can look at it from an uninvolved perspective.
 * 3. Karlos and I have similar writing styles and personalities, at least as expressed in hypertext, so I tend to view his writings much less harshly than many others. However, I recognize that he has been at the center of a few user-to-user disputes. I imagine that you are misreading his comments to be deliberately inflammatory. If I recall correctly, his first language is not English, and his first culture is not American -- I've spent a significant amount of time over the last 8 years overseas, among non-English, non-American cultures, so I'm used to that sort of thing, but I could see how such a difference might affect your interactions with him. Unfortunately, since speaking with people from other cultures seems like the norm to me these days, I can't accurately gauge what difficulty this might impose. (I'm also assuming you speak English natively and are American, which might not be the case.)
 * 4. From what you linked, Karlos did very little I'd consider wrong. I think he grossly misread your intentions on Stabber's talk page&mdash;I might be missing something (Karlos, feel free to point it out if I am), but Stabber herself posted the ban request, and you did little else besides request information on why -- but that's something he should apologize for, not something he should be banned for. Like I said earlier, everybody makes mistakes. If you demonstrate a pattern of abuse from Karlos, I'll do what must be done to stop it. As you quoted from me above, I've said this before. However, no user has stepped forward and given a clear transcript of abuse from Karlos, so I maintain the position that he's done no more wrong than anybody else.


 * If this is not sufficient or satisfactory, please respond and indicate what I missed.
 * &mdash;Tanaric 17:13, 6 April 2006 (CDT)


 * Rezyk's response:


 * I had requested clarification from you about some of that stuff back in January, and didn't get it. Some frustration over that was one of the main reasons I brought it up this time.  Anyways, on this point, the answer to #2 suffices for me.


 * I meant it when I said I don't think there's much hope of resolving this ourselves (at least, not peacefully). Your suggestions are appreciated, but they are really approaches that I can no longer keep using.  I've done the "ignore" thing many times in the past. I even ignored a statement saying that I don't believe in any trust given to admins (and which the anti-establishment labeling kind of hit too close to); this is why I reacted seriously despite the smiley.  I accept your point that he could have just been jovial and I really should have reacted in a better way, but please also note that his responses since indicate that it actually did reflect his true opinion.  I've tried the passive "asking" method, more than once (I'd like to suggest that it might be better to ___ ; I tend to think a major factor of why [problem issue occurs] is ... you will tend to ___ ; I also wish you would stop ___); the responses were not favorable.  IMO, everytime I try it greatly risks another escalating conflict.  I know I jumped to requesting your help rather quickly in this particular case...but I really do consider arbitration as a last step, not first, for when I've exhausted almost all other options.


 * Hmm, I guess it might not be clear what exactly I am objecting to. I certainly am not against everything that was said in these edits (I'm just not responding directly due to the objectionable parts).  If people want to discuss whether my comments are to blame for the ugly discussion that occurred, or if I forced/manipulated everyone into it, feel free!  If anyone is curious about my reasons or has constructive criticism for me, you really can ask/post on my talk page.  However, I do not invite anyone to make statements and labels about my intentions or state of mind as if you know them.  I am not here to get random psychoanalysis nor to be crucified over thoughts that someone else can only guess I might have. Please comment on content/actions, not on the contributor.


 * Numbers:
 * I tend to feel that an adequate response would have to rebutt with my own true opinions of his intentions. As this would be just as out of line, and against assuming good faith, I will just refrain.
 * Thank you.
 * His responses (especially the one above) make a lot of negative assumptions about my intentions/reasons/character and treats them as facts. That in itself seems naturally inflammatory to me, even if the inaccuracies are not deliberate (in that he believes his presumptions are correct, which I assume he does).  If a cultural difference applies here, I'd be interested in understanding it.
 * How and whether anybody is sanctioned is entirely up to you, and I make no suggestions. My only reason for asking is to better understand where we are.  I also am not clear what your idea of "abuse" is (it is a bit of a vague term) so cannot easily take you up on that offer.  I actually thought your perception was that "abuses of administrator power simply do not happen".


 * I am not so happy about having to be so personally reactive to this stuff as it comes up (as it does again in this discussion). Had I simply not noticed one these edits, there would be unopposed statements out there giving people wildly misleading/inaccurate ideas about me.  Maybe there even is -- I don't review everything that comes up in every discussion, and there shouldn't be any reason I would need to.  I already have to correct people's ideas about what I've actually said; I'd rather not also have to deal with so many wrong ideas about what I actually think.


 * Anyways, at the end of the day I still have to judge for myself, after considering all the responses, whether I really can have the faith to believe that the chance of seeing this issue again is reduced enough. I'm unclear where the line between acceptable and unacceptable is being placed with respect to this stuff (previously I thought it was apparent as a personal attack)...but no matter how it is classified, it is not something I personally care to have to continue dealing with, nor do I want to be part of a project where others may continue to be subjected to it.  For this reason I will be taking an indefinite leave from the wiki altogether, and require no further arbitration.


 * Thank you for your considerable time and effort. --Rezyk 11:56, 9 April 2006 (CDT)

Banning Policy
Could you write up a document detailing the criteria/practices for banning on GuildWiki? I dislike having to make such a request of work from another, but IMO this has become important to have and I feel the system has generally restricted me from making any more effective progress by myself. --Rezyk 15:56, 13 March 2006 (CST)

Requesting User Ban
Hi, Tanaric. I would like to request a user ban on Wes Richard (User:Wesrichards). Please see Talk:Leaver. Aside from the childish mocking, check the e-mail link he placed. Thanks. --Karlos 15:28, 2 March 2006 (CST)


 * Thanks for looking into it. I will let you chart the path here. You are charting the path for future incidents so me and Wes are not the only ones observing this or affected by it. --Karlos 13:04, 7 March 2006 (CST)

He will not drop it, Tanaric: User:Wesrichards, Care to suggest something new? --Karlos 18:05, 7 March 2006 (CST)

Guildwikians
I wanted to let you know that as of now The Guildwikians have a sister-guild over here in Europe, called "Guildwikians Of Europe" [Wiki] :) I hope you don't have any objections about me copying your idea (if so, tell me). At least I certainly will never copy your cape ;). --Eightyfour-onesevenfive 20:12, 16 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. :) &mdash;Tanaric 22:56, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi. I'd be interested in joining any formal GuildWiki Guild in game, as this remains my favorite GW site, even if my time and ability to contribute has decreased. In game name is "Yang Earth". --JoDiamonds 11:31, 24 February 2006 (CST)
 * What he said :p, and my ingame is "The Fire Fox" -- 20:14, 24 February 2006 (CST)

How big are the 2 guilds? 20:53, 24 February 2006 (CST)


 * Mine has exactly two people right now (potentially four once JoDiamonds and FireFox accept their invitations), both of which do not play the game seriously anymore. Hence the non-advertisement.  &mdash;Tanaric 13:55, 25 February 2006 (CST)


 * Mine's a one man show currently. I just wanted the [Wiki] tag and have no intentions to create a serious guild. But if someone wants to join anyway, just gimme a call. :) -- 19:54, 11 March 2006 (CST)

Answer
I really meant it when I said the discussion was closed over there. However, as you've stated and I have absolutely no problem supporting, you've been around damned near forever, and I have no problem having a discussion with you on this. If anyone's earned it, you have. I'd really love it to be real-time; IRC or IM (I've only googleTalk setup at the moment) would be awesome if this doesn't answer what you need. First, I want to make a distinction on all this "ownership" stuff. There's hard and fast site ownership. Someone has that. That's the domain name, the actual hard drive with data.. all that stuff. Then there's content ownership which is what I think you've been driving at, and no, of course nobody owns that! That's the whole point of the wiki. But I think the people with site ownership still get to call what shots they want. Is that where we were tripping up? Physical vs Content? If so, that's awesome, cos pretty sure we're in agreement there. Also, the conflict started because the way the issue was brought to us was unbelievably rude and hostile. I can't read it any other way, no matter who says it was benign and, "Oh, you're just assuming." Not saying anyone has but that's a usual fallback, and I'm coming clean and saying boy do I not care what was intended. =p Anyway. Absolutely. And aside from the splash page, this is how things have been going, innit? So you see how I get a little tetchy when the response is not, "Hey, this is a new thing you've done, why?" but, "We're voting to somehow limit what you can do." However! Which is true! But man, is it unlikely. No, I don't like conflict. And I've been trying so hard this week to figure out what the actual problem here is and sort it out without resorting to simply wiping the discussion away and banning people who annoy me, because of course that'd be the poor way to handle it. So if for no other reason than this has kept me up nights all week, while we certainly maintan that right - AS THE SITE OWNERS - it's probably not going to happen. So, would IM or something be needed? Wanted? Is there even a problem at all? And don't say you're gonna bail for a few days and be unable to respond, that's bad form, man. =p --Nunix 22:16, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I, (Nunix and/or Gravewit), accept that I have the ability to do anything I wish to the GuildWiki, but choose to do only those things either 1. necessary for the maintenance of the GuildWiki, including its server and database, or 2. put through some sort of community process before implementation.
 * "We maintain that we have the right to stuff like this in the future."

On Guild Wars
Can I ask: Why don't you play Guild Wars anymore? Shandy 04:09, 2 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Sure. In short, it lacks depth.


 * But I'll expand upon that. Back during the beta events (I played in every one), a lot was promised of Guild Wars.  It was supposed to be a more tactical game, in that if you didn't think during the map, you'd perish.  I remember playing through the early versions of the post-Searing Ascalon missions.  The enemies were incredibly difficult&mdash;usually three or four levels higher than you.  The encounters were placed in such a way that you could attack them from different angles with different results.  You could approach one group from on high, assault them with arrows as they approached, and then defeat the significantly damaged group after they finally got up to you.  Nowadays, every mission is just rush in, attack, defeat, next mission.  There's no challenge.  There are a couple of "gotchas" that you have to remember&mdash;for example, not pulling all the switches at once at the Frost Gate, but other than those few tricks, no mission requires anything more than common sense.


 * I got what I could out of the game. A buddy and me skipped all the missions and explored our way to every single visitable area in the game (pre-Desert, obviously).  I ran through most of the missions (I've yet to get past Thunderhead Keep), but they were pretty tame in comparison to what I'd played in the Beta.  I started a guild, and recruited a bunch of very unique people&mdash;but I was stranded in a different timezone all last summer, and since I couldn't do much for the guild, I handed leadership over to somebody else.  When I came back, the guild was mostly dead&mdash;and the few people who did still play were asshats.  I resigned from the guild, but since I don't really play anymore anyway, I rejoined recently (I know a lot of the guys "in real life," and my not being in the guild was inconvenient).  Still, I feel as if I've gotten most everything I can out of Guild Wars, and I'm happy to relegate my Guild Wars exposure to simply maintaining the GuildWiki.


 * I should probably also note that, even though I haven't really played in the last six months, I still have over 200 hours combined across all my characters. I put in a lot of time at release.  &mdash;Tanaric 15:24, 3 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Basically, this is why I PvP. Even before I finished PvE the first time around I knew it was basically about cheesing the AI enemy.  At that point, I was just playing to unlock stuff.  (I tried exploring, but the huge amount of emptiness after Ascalon made me eventually stop.)  I guess if you don't have a good group to putz around with, then PvP isn't very enjoyable, but I think it's worth trying to find good people.  --Fyren 15:36, 3 December 2005 (UTC)


 * PvP isn't that much different than PvE in this game. There's no tactics, or terrain to take advantage of, or even any way to meaningfully hide.  It's just coordinating your builds and following a plan.  While many people enjoy that, I really don't.  The only game that had PvP I enjoyed was Ultima Online.  I could skulk in the shadows, wait for somebody to walk past, take them out, take their stuff, and laugh all the way to the home I stole from some other guy. :) &mdash;Tanaric 15:39, 3 December 2005 (UTC)


 * While there's no classic rogue profession, there are tactics and terrain advantages. Line of sight, positioning, not simply playing characters in a mechanical manner, paying attention to what the other team is doing (and who is doing what) so you can react to it, and leadership of your own team are large issues.  If you were playing in the arenas, yes, it's mostly a joke.  GvG and, to a lesser extent, tombs is where it happens.  --Fyren 16:26, 3 December 2005 (UTC)


 * If you like the challenge in PvE, you should not have stopped short of the fire islands. While, by now, there are known "tricks" tp get past nearly any mission, there is a significant increase in difficulty after the shiverpeaks missions and again after the fire island missions. Try your hand at the titans quests (without using one of the tricks) and you'll have a real challenge. --Xeeron 10:45, 4 December 2005 (UTC)


 * A mediocre beginning does not justify a great end. I won't slog through boredom to get to something fun.  I've got plenty of other games that are already fun. :) &mdash;Tanaric 14:23, 4 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree that the game is very "forgiving" up to the Southern Shiverpeak missions. Players can simply hack and slash and overpower their enemy in almost every mission until they get to Thunderhead keep. This teaches bad playing habits and is the main reason so many players get stuck in Thunderhead keep for long before they can advance to the Ring of Fire. The fact that players can be "run" to most of the high-level areas in the game doesn't help either. I am sick and tired of seeing level 6 players trying to get "hitch-hike" through the Desert missions.
 * But once you get to the harder areas of the game, the experience is very rewarding. Some of the explorable areas and missions starting from Droknar's Forge can be quite intimidating. They require actual preparation! :) Like you see party leaders asking for specific classes and builds. Really amazing! And of course the Fissure of Woe and the Underworld are simply sublime. There is no room for crap there. Lousy parties and poor group tactics result in a wipeout fairly quickly. --Karlos 06:29, 5 December 2005 (UTC)


 * PvP is the only reason I play. Although as I'm in a social guild I don't get to GvG, the Arenas are still very interesting. I look forward to Chapter 2 and the accompanying change in the state of play. At the moment things become fresh rapidly in the PvP world, as builds rise in popularity and get nerfed or countered. PvE-wise.. well, I'm having trouble finding the determination to finish the game with my Me/E - I've reached the last mission and I've been waiting for inspiration for a number of weeks :P. There isn't much incentive to complete the game more than once. In PvE I simply farm SF, FoW or the Underworld, these days, just for the hell of it. In short, PvP has amazing depth, once you get into it. Shandy 06:55, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Busy night. --Fyren 23:49, 11 December 2005 (UTC)


 * You're telling me. I don't really mind, though; I've been slacking off around here, I deserved a spambot attack. :) &mdash;Tanaric 00:18, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

ThK
Anytime you need help with it, seek me out. See my characters are listed in my user page. Lamees is the one on most often. --Karlos 22:31, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Conversation
Hey Tanaric, sorry about earlier, FoW is hard! Anyway, was there anything you wanted to know? On another note, what do you think of Talk:Morale_Boost? 10:39, 8 Aug 2005 (EST)


 * What timezone/region you play in, what your focus is, if you're recruiting people, etc. &mdash;Tanaric 23:30, 9 Aug 2005 (EST)

Thank you for your welcome :) Nectarine 01:13, 26 October 2005 (EST)

Amnoon
Requesting your input in Talk:The Amnoon Oasis. --Fyren 06:14, 2 Aug 2005 (EST)


 * Done, sorry about that. &mdash;Tanaric 20:02, 2 Aug 2005 (EST)

Sysop
I should've done it awhile back, I'm sure, but I just thought I should say thanks for all the work Tanaric, and in honor of all the edits and discussions and helpful info, you're a sysop now. Congrats. Gravewit 02:24, 3 Aug 2005 (EST)


 * Hey, thanks! I appreciate it.  I was wondering when we'd get another sysop, as Biro seemed a little overworked. :) &mdash;Tanaric 19:34, 3 Aug 2005 (EST)


 * Tell me about it :P 22:30, 3 Aug 2005 (EST)

Axe Attack
I was looking at the deletion log and saw you deleted this and Ollj remade it two days after. Is this the same content you axed? --Fyren 12:18, 8 Aug 2005 (EST)


 * "Axed"... heh. Anyway, mostly the same, yes.  I restored the deleted edits so you can see (though you should have been able to see anyway).  I should have dereferenced "Axe Attack" everywhere first, as it's a completely meaningless page (as the  mentioned).  *sigh* I see another battle in GuildWiki talk:Style and formatting/Skills coming. &mdash;Tanaric 23:29, 9 Aug 2005 (EST)

Game Update Archival
Category:Game Updates has an archive of all games and it is sorted chronologically. Just reference it at the top of the Game Updates article. --Karlos 18:38, 15 Aug 2005 (EST)


 * Didn't know that existed, but regardless, it's very unreadable, and not so useful. I thought we did away with categories for updates for that very reason. &mdash;Tanaric 18:42, 15 Aug 2005 (EST)


 * We did? I am sorry, I wasn't aware. --Karlos 19:30, 15 Aug 2005 (EST)


 * Well, clearly we didn't. :) But there were notes about it on Talk:Game updates.  &mdash;Tanaric 22:15, 15 Aug 2005 (EST)

Older
That wasn't just cos I messed your name up on Biro's talk page, was it? I made sure to get it right when I did the credits ;p Nunix

lol :D LordBiro/Talk

Hehe, I didn't notice the thing on Biro's talk page. I don't see me mentioned anywhere on it now, but I'm tired and easily confused. Tanaric

just read you got a new job tanaric, what you doing? :) LordBiro/Talk

oh, and thanks again for -writing- that big long guide! It's a serious chunk of info that I know I'd never have gotten around to compiling due to chronic oh-look-a-shiny-thing Nunix

I'm the Summer Hire Program Coordinator for the US Department of Defense deployment in Stuttgart, Germany (and surrounding areas). I coordinate the hiring and placement of about 180 14-22 year old students who have parents stationed in the area. I also coordinate with their supervisors, giving training, advice, and helping in employee/supervisor disputes. I just sent out offer letters to the applicants today, so headaches abound as I get calls from irate parents (many of whom are high-ranking military and civilians). I just haven't been up to working on the wiki in my free time because of it, so... sorry. :) I'll eventually get back to contributing to this thing.  @Nunix: To be fair, I think the side quests were stolen from another site.  I don't remember writing them.  If I had written them, they'd have a lot longer descriptions.  I meant to go back and fill them all in, but I never got around to it. Tanaric

Tanaric, would you be able to call categories "Contains Iron Ingots" rather than just "Contains Iron"? BTW, I like the way the templates are shaping up :D good stuff! 06:53, 16 Jun 2005 (EST)


 * You know, I thought about that, but decided against it initially. The item itself doesn't really contain ingots of iron -- we simply make the iron into ingot form after salvaging for convenience.  The more practical argument is that I don't want to have a category called "Contains Piles of Glittering Dust" when merely "Contains dust" is sufficient.  Think about it; I'll change if you're not swayed. :) Tanaric 15:30, 16 Jun 2005 (EST)


 * Hehe, well I do see your point, I hadn't thought of that. But there are some crafting materials that have similar names, for example there are wood planks and there are spiritwood planks, you could say that items that salvage into spiritwood planks also contain wood, which wouldn't be unreasonable ;) 20:00, 17 Jun 2005 (EST)


 * Also a good point. Hmm.  I still favor using "Contains wood" and "Contains spiritwood" and even "Contains Deldrimor steel", because I'm a grammar/verisimilitude nazi.  Not to mention, I got there first. ;) Tanaric 20:17, 17 Jun 2005 (EST)
 * I'm late to the discussion, but I suggest "Yields Iron Ingots" instead to preserve the in game name. --Fyren 20:10, 2 Jul 2005 (EST)

Could you please exlain your "Case Crusade"? Is this a mutual agreement? I can't find anything in that direction in the Style & Formating instructions. I thought we agreed that only "minor" words should be lowercase. --Tetris L 18:29, 15 Jul 2005 (EST)


 * Nevermind. See my notes in Style & Formating talk. --Tetris L 19:03, 15 Jul 2005 (EST)


 * Will do. &mdash;Tanaric 23:41, 15 Jul 2005 (EST)

Just curious: As an American living in Europe, do you play on the American or European server? --Tetris L 19:14, 15 Jul 2005 (EST)


 * I play in the American region, because I live in America for most of the year. &mdash;Tanaric 23:41, 15 Jul 2005 (EST)

Another mention of SQL problems
I suppose you've noticed the MySQL errors that are popping up all over the place, just wondered if you had any ideas regarding them. 07:05, 25 Jul 2005 (EST)


 * I've no idea. I would have suggested restoring from a recent backup, but I doubt such a thing exists.  I'd also suggest upgrading to the latest stable version of mySQL, but that seems pretty impossible too.  Table repairs might be our only chance here. &mdash;Tanaric 07:22, 25 Jul 2005 (EST)


 * I've been offline for several days and just noticed this reference. What're the problems? Can someone paste what they're seeing? At $dayjob I manage mysql servers with several hundred gigs of data so I might be able to help with whatever is going on. Also re: Backups, someone with shell access should setup a cronjob of "mysqldump --quick --add-drop-table -u root --password='$password'" on a daily basis. I'd also recommend an offsite sync of that data (which I'm more than happy to contribute server space for) MartinLightbringer 07:42, 25 Jul 2005 (EST)


 * n/m I just saw one. It's definitely a table corruption issue. I'd recommend stopping mysql and running mysiamchk -r on the appropriate table (or run REPAIR TABLE while mysql is running). As an aside does anyone know what version of mysql is running here? MartinLightbringer 07:49, 25 Jul 2005 (EST)


 * A cron job is a good idea, and colocation too. Btw, i think that should be myisamchk -r, please correct my if I'm wrong. I guess only the hosts can do this though (afaik cheap(er) hosting typically doesn't come with shell access). Is REPAIR TABLE an SQL command? And if so, are there any advantages to stopping the server and using myisamchk instead? 09:32, 25 Jul 2005 (EST)
 * Yeah just a typo. myisamchk is correct. REPAIR TABLE is a mysql command. It does essentially the same things, although I have seen it fail to correct problems that running myisamchk -r with the db shutdown will fix. See REPAIR TABLE syntax for details. Re: the hosting, I'm not aware of the details of what's in place now but I've seen dedicated server (with root access) pricing at various hosts in the $30/month range.  MartinLightbringer 10:41, 25 Jul 2005 (EST)
 * Thanks Martin, some good info there! Yeah, looking at the ledger it seems Gravewit pays around that amount for hosting, so perhaps he does have shell access. 21:23, 25 Jul 2005 (EST)