Talk:Magehunter's Smash

Hmmm this might hurt Boon prots even more than the actual boon nerf ... but then, so will it hurt MoR users. EDrain anyone? --Xeeron 09:10, 22 September 2006 (CDT)

Unattributed! Give it a <=4 requirement, like Earthshaker. Kamahl 23:16, 23 September 2006 (CDT)
 * What's the point of putting req 4 on it? It's a hammer attack, which requires a hammer anyway. Every time I've seen someone with a hammer in their hands, they've had 12~14 mastery with it Celestial Patch

Nevermind that, this is going to be on every hammer Warrior who even thinks about targeting Dervishes. Arshay Duskbrow 05:40, 26 September 2006 (CDT)

I don't get it... Is this really that much more useful than, say, Devastating Hammer? Yes, Devastating costs 2 more adrenaline, but it causes Weakness (not exceptionally useful) and it's unconditional. I don't really want a knockdown on my bar that stops being useful the moment people drop their Divine Boon maintainence. The conditional aspect really narrows its potential significantly. Ponder this: When Prophecies was the only version of Guild Wars, and top hammer builds ran Hammer Bash instead of Heavy Blow, even when they had Devastating Hammer. Heavy Blow is superior in every way when the conditions are met! However, what if the target weren't weakened? What if you just killed a target and went to your next, with a fully charged knockdown you couldn't use? What if the target got a condition removal at a key time causing your knockdown to fail?
 * Devestating Hammer is more useful for spiking (Fierce Blow double dmg), and is also an unconditional KD -Thomas 15:51, 5 December 2006 (CST)

Blessed Light monks that don't run enchantments on themselves are becoming more popular, and more solid non-enchantment monk skills are on their way. Is 2 less adrenaline really going to rate higher than the unconditional aspect? In my opinion, it's not. Merengue 13:01, 30 September 2006 (CDT)

That's what I was thinking. Weak because it's conditional. Yeah, it may have good use against boon prots or dervishes, but if you have to go beat on something else, it becomes worthless sometimes. IMO, this should have a 1/2 second activation, or a can't be blocked or evaded added to it.--GTPoompt 03:37, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Like Magehunter Strike? Yeah, it should get a 1/2 activation time. DancingZombies 16:40, 23 October 2006 (CDT)

Boss in the SE corner of the Forum highlands (south of the connection to Jennur's horde). --Fyren 17:53, 28 October 2006 (CDT)

I like hammers, and this elite is rather dissappointing, its like a Counter Blow for casters. I can see where this skill could work good against a Dervish combined with counter blow for many KDs but its just not worth an elite slot. I'm sticking with Devastating Hammer and Fierce Blow. --Spark 00:49, 17 December 2006 (CST)

It's really nasty to have this used against you if you're running vital enchants such as attunes; it's not fun to be knocked down 40% of the time. At least it doesn't bypass blocking and evasion, like Magehunter Strike. Tycn 04:25, 27 December 2006 (CST)
 * But it needs to do that. Hitting an enchanted foe, such as a monk, usually results in a block, making this skill useless. DancingZombies [[Image:Aura_of_the_Lich.jpg|24px]] 14:30, 3 February 2007 (CST)

This skill would have been great if it had exsisted during the reign of Boon Prot monks, but as it is - a conditional, +0 damage knockdown - its uses are severely limited. DarkMishkin 14:10, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

Why is everybody talking about Monks? Aren't Elementalists the ones who always carry an enchantment? I mean, an ele build without an attunement is pretty much useless. I'm not saying this skill is any good, because it isn't, but it's not just a monk counter. --Rickyvantof 15:05, 26 April 2007 (CDT)

I also agree that this skill could be better. If the qualifying enchantment happens to be one that blocks attacks like Aegis or Guardian, which are both common on monks but by no means limited to monks, then this attack would likely be blocked - making it that much less useful.Ninjatek 10:45, 31 May 2007 (CDT)

This skill should cost 4 adrenaline since it doesn't improve with mastery and is a conditional knockdown.

How about a Lame Template? I don't think I've seen anyone, and Nightfall is already out for a loooong time.. Just a thought though.

Go ahead if you want, I personally hate this skill. Only reason to run a Hammer in PvE is for KD anyways, since you can easily match a Hammer's damage with Axes or certain Swords builds...Magehunter's Smash works very nicely against enemy Casters or Dervishes, but without any +damage, higher Energy cost than the non-Elite KD's, and the conditional nature...Like someone else said, it's pretty much a retooled Counter Blow. That skill actually has some more uses, though, which is sad. When you're running Magehunter's Smash, you pretty much need to carry an additional KD skill. And that makes it weak. Every other Hammer elite is better imo...Devhammer, Earthshaker (PvE), Forceful Blow, Backbreaker. Even Enraged Smash > this because its condition is very easy to meet and it's soo easy to deal constant heavy damage with it. Magehunter's Smash needs a buff to either 4 Adrenaline cost, Unblockable to Enchanted, or +damage before it will ever really become viable. (T/C) 16:40, 29 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I'll do the honors then


 * Ah, that felt good. Been a long time ;) --Gimmethegepgun 16:48, 29 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Thanks alot Entropy, but I cannot agree with you on one thing you said. Hammers are useful in PvE, ever tried Dwarven Battle Stance? It does more then just it's job to screw up casters, as it interrupts actions, so melee and rangers don't get a chance to do anything either. And besides, like Skuld would say: "Everything works in PvE", save Echo Mending... Edit: One more thing: You said "Higher Energy cost the a non-elite KD", didn't you mean adrenaline?


 * I didn't add the tag. As to DBS, I love that skill, but you must know from using it that it's quite inflexible. At high Strength it lasts a little longer than 1/2 the recharge. This means you are basically forced to take Renewing Smash and "On Your Knees!". Renewing + DBS drains your energy quick, and if it misses you're in trouble...OYK requires a KD, but since you can't use skills under DBS it is a bit of a problem - DBS already Elite, so your only choice would be Counter Blow. Since OYK requires Adrenaline, Hammer Bash and Heavy Blow don't work. So, you've got a bar like this so far:


 * Those three optionals, what can be used? Not much...Adding another Energy attack is a bad idea since you need all your Energy to keep DBS going. Adding another Adrenal attack is also meh, since OYK causes you to lose all Adrenaline. So, a skill that costs neither Adrenaline nor Energy - Signets? Signet of Strength? Haha, bad skill >.> You could fill those slots with other "utility" skills like Distracting Blow or hex/condition removal, but still...Energy problems.
 * So you see, while on paper DBS is a pretty nice skill, in practice it's a very one-trick pony. Very much like the old Practiced Stance + Choking Gas combo, it can keep a target under constant lockdown for a while. But, it can't do much else than that due to the constraints of the build. You can't cause serious damage without attack skills, you can't consistently KD, and if you're up against any sort of Blocking or other anti-Melee, then DBS becomes totally useless. At least Choking Gas interrupts unconditionally...That said, DBS + Frustration is nice.
 * Oh, and yeah, I probably meant Adrenaline... >.> [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 14:34, 30 July 2007 (CDT)
 * You're right, about OYK. But if you think outside OYK there are good skills for DBS. Perhaps you haven't checked the PvX wiki about the matter, but a pretty good build can be found. There is a E-management skill for hammers, Auspishious Smash (Or something like that), and it does it's job. Don't forget DBS not only interrupts, but also gives an IAS, giving you the quicker adrenaline charge. With that you can use Staggering Blow to cause weakness, and follow by Auspishious, giving energy that you need. As for blocking, warriors have a few ways to deal with that, Irresistable Blow, Wild Blow. Ofcourse they cancel DBS, but have a side effect which is very useful. And as far as I know, most PvE enemies that are considered the ones that should be interrupted (Monks, powerful Elementalists)don't have a Blocking skill. Monster used pells that block always take one second, or longer to cast, and thus get interrupted. As for no damage, a warrior with 14 Hammer Mastery still hurts; as I remember hitting +100something on a Risen Ashen Hulk, - an endgame level enemy -, with a critical hit. Ofcourse, DBS is limited, but not limited enough to not be able to complete the task expected from it.
 * DBS is conditional. Prac Stance is conditional. So what? Readem (talk *contribs ) 16:44, 30 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Conditional is bad and Practiced Stance sucks anyways, bad example on my part. Why take something that only works in certain situations, when you can take an Elite like...say...Forceful Blow or Devastating Hammer that always does its job? As to Auspicious Blow + Staggering Blow, that's still very meh. You'll be relying on two unblocked attacks and no condition removal, and since using skills kills DBS it will be under a no-IAS either. If you're talking endgame, I can think of plenty of ways that can fail...Deadly Riposte from Hand of the Titans, Aegis from Margonite Cleric, Auspicious Parry from Shiro'Ken Warrior, Lightning Reflexes from Arm of Insanity, Sliver Armor from Shiro'ken Elementalist...and plain condition removal. Irresistible Blow doesn't give you any Adrenaline if it is blocked and Wild Blow will lose all Adrenaline so that is pointless to a DBS build. "Monster used spells that block always take one second, or longer to cast, and thus get interrupted"...not really. Under a 33% IAS with a hammer, you'll be attacking almost right on the once-per-second mark, so the window is narrower than you'd expect. Also, you are assuming only one foe with blockstuffs, but usually there is more than one. Other things can hinder you too, such as snares (Deep Freeze from Siege Ice Golem]]), anti-IAS (Shadow of Fear from Risen Ash Hulk), or KD. As for no damage, I'm still right. You'd be getting many times more damage actually using Hammer attack skills, and under an IAS like Tiger Stance to compensate it would be even better. +100 something on a Risen Ash Hulk doesn't mean anything, because that is a weak Necromancer enemy with low Armor, even if it is "end game". I am pretty sure they have <60AL. Dervish scythe crits are ~75 damage on 60AL, hammers are less so either they have low AL or you were using a Cold-damage weapon or something...anyways, try DBS against Stone Summit Carver in Grenth's Footprint or other high-armor endgame foes, the damage is not impressive. In the end...DBS is nice for niche situations, but constant interrupt isn't the Warrior's job anyways and there are better skills for it too (in other professions). [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 19:46, 1 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I really think that you overestimate enemy AI. I actually think that caster enemies might spend more or less the same time attacking as using their skills, because the AI tends to try and attack as much as possible, sometimes putting attacking as a goal above all else. Don't think AI priorises condition removal either, perhaps on the paper, but not on the field; as I had absolutly no trouble gaining my 8 energy for Suspicious Blow. Those counters to DBS you stated are in the 'And an Earthquake might cause your computer to fall down and break' cathegory. As for Deep Freeze, Aegis, Shadow of Fear, those are all +2second cast spells and also should be interrupted by the DBS warrior. In other words: Know your enemy. Other counters are generally anti-melee coutners, you can't expect DBS to cover all that, if it would, it would be too powerful. Every skill has it's limitations, and a build that would make itself unstoppable is a non-existing build. DBS, - like any other skill -, has it's limits, I am only trying to point out that it is a good skill which is useful in most areas. One more thing: Did you count in the skill anomality when you calculated the 33 (50) IAS?


 * I know enemy AI better than most people and I think you heap too much love on this skill. End of discussion, since it seems neither of us is going to convince the other. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 02:06, 9 August 2007 (CDT)
 * So it seems, I was just going to pull out Karlos' "Never Ending Argument".