User talk:LordBiro


 * /Archive 1

Leave Me A Message
Hi, its Aleski, thanks for letting me know about the report a vandal page. Merci beacoup :) -- Aleski

Hi...i was just wondering if you could maybe make an icon for me like you did for Gem. Just a hyperish once would be nice. You are awesome. Thanx!

&mdash; Hypernecrofear


 * No, that was a one off. And yes, I am awesome.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 01:33, 27 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Sorry LordBiro, I didn't mean to start a trend. :) --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 03:18, 27 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Don't worry Gem, I can't even think of a good icon for myself!  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 03:21, 27 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I can tell. Btw, you ARE a awesome! --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 03:22, 27 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Why thankyou, Gem, you're not bad yourself ;)  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 03:25, 27 June 2006 (CDT)

I know this is in response to old content, but I have to point out that "Who else thinks we should start GuildWiki is not a pipe?" has had me laughing for about 10 minutes now. -- Oblio


 * lol :) I'm glad you liked it! :D  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 11:17, 29 September 2006 (CDT)

Nightfall Profession Icons
You're gonna draw us something sexy, right? Apologies if it's been asked already elsewhere. &mdash;Tanaric 07:16, 28 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Hey Tanaric :D I've been a little busy this last week so I haven't been keeping up with all the Nightfall discussions, so I don't know if it's already been asked. But to answer your question: Yes, I'll be making some icons ;)  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 05:01, 29 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Good, because the current icons people have made up, are...fugly. :D [[Image:UserImage Aubray1741 ClassicIcon.gif]] Aubray1741 16:12, 30 July 2006 (CDT)
 * The Anet's Paragon icon is ugly so hard to do something great with it.&mdash; ├ A ratak  ┤  12:06, 31 July 2006 (CDT)
 * You don't have faith in LordBiro? Heretic! Burnnn in helll!!! --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 12:48, 31 July 2006 (CDT) (Don't take that TOO seriously ;) )


 * Hehe, I have been thinking about it for a couple of days now. I'm not 100% sure what I'm going to do for the Paragon icon yet, but I think I know what I'm doing for the Dervish icon.


 * I don't like any of the icons used by the Priests of Balthazar, but I think the Paragon icon looks particularly out of place!  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 13:20, 31 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I said hard and hard is nothing for lordbiro.:) &mdash; ├ A ratak  ┤  21:17, 31 July 2006 (CDT)

Draft 1
I've just uploaded a first draft of Nightfall icons.



I'll explain my decisions first of all.


 * Colors are based on the skill colours of each profession. This is the same criteria used for the prophecies and factions icons.
 * I have mixed feelings about the orange color of the Paragon icon. Paragon skills are red and yellow. Red is used by Elementalists and yellow didn't look very good. :)
 * No dual colored icons; sticking with the 2 colors used for the Dervish icon would give a very different look to the other icons used on the GuildWiki.
 * No flower thing on the Paragon icon; again this would look out of place, but I have considered cutting a flower shape out of the hexagon on the Paragon icon.

Let me know what you think!  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 05:11, 5 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Blantantly awesome. I wish I had your icon-making skills, considering how long I spent making the monstrosity that is my signature icon... at any rate, I think these are excellent. I particularly like how well they go together and feel as part of a whole, even with the two new class icons. I support their use 100%. -- [[Image:Bishop_icon2.png]] Bishop [ rap|con ] 06:11, 5 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Excellent work. I would like to see the Paragon icon with the flower shape cut into it for comparison.  For Dervish, I don't think that the two colors would look too out of place, but I understand your reasoning and I don't feel strongly one way or another.  Although as future professions are added and the available color pallet gets used, I can see needing to use multiple colors to help differentiate.  --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 10:27, 5 August 2006 (CDT)
 * As always Biro, great work. Like Barek I wouldn't mind seeing the alternate for the Paragon icon, but even if I never see that, I'd be happy with these.  --Rainith 16:37, 5 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Great job! Why not make an alternative version of the dervish icon with the 2 colors and let the users decide? Not that it would matter a lot. Well done, you are still awesome! ;) --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 17:15, 5 August 2006 (CDT)
 * [[image:profession-icons-ingame.jpg|right]]one could note that Dervish and Paragon are the only professions with dual color icons in game, but we're varied signifigantly from the eye-in-hand design of the mesmer, so i suppose it's not terribly important. top notch work, as always, my lord. ;) --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 17:26, 5 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Heh, in direct comparison, it becomes obvious that ANet should have hired Biro after they designed the initial set of icons, as his icon-series is both nicer-looking and more internally consistent than the actual ingame ones... -- [[Image:Bishop_icon2.png]] Bishop [ rap|con ] 18:00, 5 August 2006 (CDT)

Thanks everyone, you are all very kind, especially you Bishop :P

I'll work on producing a flower cut-out for the Paragon icon later today and you can let me know what you think. My only concern is that the Paragon icon is already a little fussy (the detail on the wings isn't very discernable at original and small sizes) and I think that adding a flower symbol might make it look overly complicated. I think it would probably be impossible to tell what it was at the small size. I'll give it a try anyway :) Really this is an issue I have with the Guild Wars Paragon icon; there's far too much detail in the icon that you simply can't make out at the size used in the Priests of Balthazar menu.

Using the two colors for the Dervish icon is a possibility, but I feel as though it strays too far from the simplicity of the icons we use at the GuildWiki. In my opinion a shape and a color should be enough to identify a profession. Since you've asked though I will try using two colors and see what it looks like :)  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 05:53, 6 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Don't need to thank me, I just call them as I see them. By the way, I share your concerns about the paragon icon, but my suggestion would be for you to get even more creative and make the icon even more stylized and less exactly-as-ingame because the current in-game icon is obviously the result of a brain fart. And what we really need is just something that looks good and is immediately recognizable as a paragon icon (but not nessecarily as the paragon icon).


 * About the dervish icon, the one we're currently using for the Dervish skill articles is actually rather nice in my opinion, and at least shows that it is possible to use dual colors and still make it look okay. I'm looking forward to what you come up with. -- [[Image:Bishop_icon2.png]] Bishop [ rap|con ] 07:07, 6 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Rather than a flower pattern, it may be enough just to use a circle or other simple geometric shape. I just thought it may look good to break up the large field of orange, but what you have now is trully excellent work, and we could easilly use it as-is.  I was just hoping to see an option, if you have time available.  Thanks for the great work on this.  --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 23:18, 8 August 2006 (CDT)

Draft 2


I gave the Dervish icon a two-tone effect. I really don't like it :P but let me know which you prefer.

I actually do like the flower cut-out on the Paragon icon. I think it looks coolio. Again, your opinions would be great :)  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 06:53, 11 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Amazing. Personaly I prefer the Paragon with the cutout and the single colour Dervish.-- JP 07:02, 11 August 2006 (CDT)


 * You have exquisite taste JP :D hehe.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 07:10, 11 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Great work, Biro! I prefer the dual color dervish icon, and the paragon icon with the cutout. We should stay close to the ingame original.
 * While we're at "staying close to the ingame original": Why on earth was it decided to use the feather icon for ranger instead of the ingame paw icon?? I know this was in the very early days of GuildWiki, and I wouldn't dare to question something that is established for such long time, but it has really puzzled ever since I started contributing. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 07:17, 11 August 2006 (CDT)


 * The reason for that Tetris is because when Guild Wars started there were no profession icons in the game. The prophecies icons are based on icons from the European manual, the only reference material available when I first made them. Subsequently ANet added the profession icons that you can see in the Priest of Balthazar menus today, and I think quite lowly of them. I agree that there should be consistency with our icons and the game's icons, but the official icons aren't even consistent with each other in their design. Summary: I hate them.


 * If, in the early days of the wiki, before any profession icons existed in the game, someone had come to the wiki offering the same icons that ANet were later to introduce I would have argued against their usage because they don't look very professional.


 * Incidentally, I think a paw would make a good icon for Pet Attacks as opposed to rangers.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 07:48, 11 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I very much like the Paragon with the cutout. But for the Dervish, I actually prefer the icon created by someone else  that is already in-use (sorry Lord Biro).  You do excellent work, that I could never hope to replicate - but in the case of the dervish I think that at the smaller size the less extreme curves of the current one makes it easier to distinguish the shape of the icon, and the two curve don't blend together as much. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 09:16, 11 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Note: this is only at the smaller size I prefer the current icon. At larger sizes where more detail is visible, your two color icon is superior in quality (see current image: [[Image:Dervish-icon.png]]). --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 09:22, 11 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I can not believe people prefer my dervish icon to LordBirdo's icon... I like LordBiro's style as it is consistant with the wiki's other icons. we need a change of the Ranger icon to the paw print though, the feather is not right. --Jamie [[Image:Jamie.jpg|24px|(Talk Page)]] 09:27, 11 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I don't recall seeing the biggest Ranger icon before. From the smaller ones I always assumed it was a leaf!--JP 09:33, 11 August 2006 (CDT)


 * At the smaller size, the distinct curves of the current dervish icon keep it from visually blending into one large curve shape. At the larger size where more detail is visible and the curves no longer visually blur together, I prefer Lord Biro's.
 * As for the ranger icon, I prefer the leaf. As was said above, the paw is great for beast mastery, but there's more to a ranger than just that.  Incidentally, if we were to want to get the wiki icons to match the in-game ones more closely, we would need to redo the Mesmer, Elementalist and Assassin icons as well as they are visually very different from the in-game versions due to shape or color, etc.  But on all of those, I prefer the wiki icon over the in-game icon.  Well, I like both the in-game and the wiki icon for the Mesmer - but for the other icons, ours are visually clearer and more internally consistent in style. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 09:45, 11 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Back from Estonia. :) The second version of the Paragon icon is great and a lot better than the first one. The second dervish icon is better too imho, but it's not that important to me which one we use. Both the old and the new dervish icons look a bit weird in small size. The gap between the two parts shouldn't be so blurred but clear. I hope you can fix it. Great job again! --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 15:40, 12 August 2006 (CDT)
 * wandering the wiki and ran accross a reference to this again and saw the new draft, sooo pretty. someday you'll have to teach me that "summon greater icon" spell. 2 notes: shouldn't the paragon center bit be convex instead of concave? the dervish seperation isn't a large deal in my opinion, but that could be corrected by matching the inside curve of the lower arc with the outside curve of the upper arc, giving a consistant spacing. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 12:56, 13 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Thanks for all the feedback :)


 * As I've said so many times before I don't think we should aim to be too close to the Guild Wars icons, because they are rubbish. I would argue very strongly against changing the ranger icon to a paw symbol at this point.


 * Regarding the Nightfall icons, I can see your point about the blurriness of the Dervish icon at the small size. I will try to re-assess the shape as Sarah has suggested, making the inside of the larger curve match up with the outside of the smaller curve.


 * I'm still don't like the two-coloured Dervish icon, I've asked some of my friends off-wiki and they agree that it looks out of place.


 * Sarah, I'm not sure what you mean when you say that you think the inside of the Paragon icon should be convex instead of concave? Do you mean that, instead of being a gap there should be a change in texture? Or do you mean there should be a change in the shape of the icon?


 * P.S. I did some research on Summon Greater Icon for you!  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 02:58, 15 August 2006 (CDT)
 * so minor, but what i ment was that the paragon in game has a protruding sigil on top of the winged sheild, and your draft has a white dimple or hole. maybe reverse the shading on the center bit so it seems to be on arching twords the viewer, on top of the yellow. again, totally minor and not worth spending any extra time on. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 09:10, 15 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Imho LordBiros version is superior to the ingame image. ;) --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 09:23, 15 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Because you do great work I'll give you some feedback, it's the least I can do. I like the feather that becomes a leaf at lower res, much better than the paw. I also agree that the Dervish icon would look a bit nicer with a bigger gap (and didn't curve in so much). The holy Paragon is great but I'm still not sure about the Dervish two tone or not thing, but I'm sure one will grow on me! ;) Oh and it goes without saying that LordBiro's icons are better than the in-game ones. --Xasxas256 09:26, 15 August 2006 (CDT)

Thanks for all the kind words :) I really appreciate the feedback!!  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 10:15, 15 August 2006 (CDT)

Draft Sarah


Is this what you imagined Sarah?  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 10:15, 15 August 2006 (CDT)
 * yes, but white. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 10:25, 15 August 2006 (CDT)



Easily remedied! Something like this? I'm not sure if I like it.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 10:30, 15 August 2006 (CDT)


 * ya that was exactly what i was thinking about. see it seems to stick out of the page like the white sigil is sitting on top of the paragon wing sheild? better/worse? i should go buy illustrator or something, i feel bad making biro do my bidding. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 10:45, 15 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Hehe, I use inkscape, it's awesome. I'm going to have to think about the white bit, I don't know how I feel about it. I think I prefer having just 1 shape and just 1 colour per icon.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 11:17, 15 August 2006 (CDT)

The lower set looks too noisy when scaled down. Go for the upper set. Good job on all of the icons, but I do think the current Dervish-icon has a better shape, your version is too rounded compared to the in-game icon. Your choice of colours is fine, the Paragon-icon just isn't going to work very well in white. I might reconsider that later on, especially because I suspect all Paragon-bosses will have a white aura, but we'll burn that bridge when we cross it. --Black Ark 10:42, 15 August 2006 (CDT)


 * If the Paragon bosses do have a white aura then I'll definitely consider changing the colour of the logo to white. Orange is probably a poor choice of colour anyway! <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 11:17, 15 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I think that the orange is fine. And the Draft2 Paragong version is better than the Sarah version. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 11:23, 15 August 2006 (CDT)

Draft 3


Ok, I've decided that draft 2 of the Paragon icon is fine, but as many of you have pointed out, the gap between the two parts of the Dervish icon was not discernable at the small size, so I've tried to address this by following Sarah's advice of matching the inside curve of the larger arc with the outside curve of the smaller arc.

Let me know what you think :) <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 13:16, 16 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Umm, draft 3 isn't really the solution that I was looking for. I hoped you would just bend the curve of the large part in draft 2 a bit further away from the small one. The top of the two parts shouldn't be on the same level imho. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 13:23, 16 August 2006 (CDT)
 * what he said. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 13:51, 16 August 2006 (CDT)

Still completely circular. Maybe I'm being anal - after all, the Ranger-leaf looks fine even though the in-game icon is a paw-print - but if you're going for a Dervish-look I'd make the crescents less rounded. I'm undecided about the colours, get back to you later on that one. --Black Ark 14:16, 16 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I've decided that I will only be offering a single coloured Dervish icon. I really feel that using two colours makes the Dervish icon stand out from the other icons, and that's not what I want. Sorry if that dissapoints anyone!


 * I really prefer the draft 3 dervish icon to the other versions. I played about with altering the curve of the draft 1 & 2 shape and it looked dumb, so I started from scratch and came up with draft 3. I'd rather leave the choices as either draft 1 or draft 3. Is it such a problem to have both of the arcs aligned at the top? I think it looks quite neat :) <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 15:01, 16 August 2006 (CDT)
 * can i write in a vote for draft 2? the color difference makes the spacing a non-issue, and the extended lower arc doesn't look dervish-enough. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 15:07, 16 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Hmmm :( But it looks so silly! Every other profession is happy to be just 1 colour, but Dervish is like "Look at me, I'm special". It makes me sick.


 * I'd really rather not use draft 2, but if there are a number of people asking for it then I would cave under the pressure. :P <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 15:13, 16 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I'm forced to keep my vote with the existing icon or draft 2 as they avoid the blur issue and I've become mostly indifferent to the color question; but draft v1 blurs together too much, and v3 just looks odd having the arcs aligned. (note: after looking closer, it may be the shadow that's causing some of the bluring - perhaps just removing the shadow from the smaller version of v1 would solve it?) --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 15:14, 16 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Removing the shadow from the small draft 1 icon might be a good idea. From the current drafts I like draft 3 the most. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 15:27, 16 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I'd rather not remove the shadow from draft 1 all together. Even touching up the shadow by hand there is some bluriness. I could remove the shadow from all the small icons, I would be happier doing that, but I quite like the shadow. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 15:30, 16 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I didn't quite understand. Why not remove th shadow from the draft 1 small version only? --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 15:39, 16 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I also like the shadow, it adds depth and quality to the large and medium sizes; but it appears to contribute to some of the blur of the smaller icon. I'm unsure from your reply, but it appears that you're open to trying the smaller sizes without the shadow (your post confused me a bit, so not 100% sure what you meant). --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 15:46, 16 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Sorry about the confusion there, I was in a bit of a rush!


 * I would consider re-uploading all of the small icons without the shadow. I would not be willing to leave all of the small icons as they are and only upload the small dervish icon without a shadow. I'm not happy about having non-uniform icons.


 * Here is a comparison of the icons with and without shadows:


 * [[Image:Small-icons.png]]


 * Do you still think that having the small icons without shadows would be preferable Gem and Barek? <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 16:39, 16 August 2006 (CDT)

Well, the small purple Dervish-icons look cluttered with the shadows. With those, they kinda look a bit like... Black arcs. Nobody likes black arcs. They're loud and obnoxious. --Black Ark 16:54, 16 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Okay. Keep shadows on everything, draft 2 for Paragon and draft 3 for Dervish. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 16:57, 16 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Actually, the one-color small v1 without the shadow looks good to me. The bluring of the shapes is reduced (they meet at the ends of the lower arc so some blur still exists, but the center is clearly differentiated now).  As the shadow supplies very little in the small size, I like the idea of dropping it at that size - although I strongly support keeping the shadow in the medium and large sized icons.  But, if no one else likes it, I suppose I could eventually grow accustomed to the v3 with the shadow. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 17:00, 16 August 2006 (CDT)
 * i still prefer the shadow'd draft 2. the one-color dervish just doesn't look dervish-ish. which paragon isn't very critical, they all look good. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 17:09, 16 August 2006 (CDT)
 * I'd go with the shadowed draft 2 for Paragon, but I'm not sure yet about the Dervish. I'll wait with seeing what colour they choose for the boss aura before setting for something. --<font color="midnightblue">84-175 (talk) 17:17, 16 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I updated the image of all the small icons with the draft 3 dervish icon. Even if you don't like it, I still do :P <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 17:28, 16 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I still prefer v1 without the shadow. The uniform start point of v3 just look like two half circles, or maybe a representation of an ark.  As for color - I've become indifferent, and certainly see no reason to limit ourselves to the in-game two-color style unless we really want it.  I mean, just compare our Assassin icon to the in-game one - complete variance in color and even style - and to be blunt, Lord Biro's is what they really should have used in-game. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 17:47, 16 August 2006 (CDT)

Love the icons&mdash;I am a fan&mdash;but I can't look at that Paragon one in the two smaller sizes without thinking of cattle. I'm not sure if the orange has anything to do with that, but I know that the shape definitely does. Cattle and branding. -- Dashface  05:32, 26 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Hi Dashface! Ummm, I don't know what to say to that :P <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 05:35, 26 August 2006 (CDT)

Draft A
The A is for "Another draft? You must be kidding!"

As if the decision wasn't hard enough already, I started working on a completely different style of profession icon a while ago that I think looks cleaner. I'm not suggesting that we should switch to these icons, but I thought that since I'd done them and we were on the subject of icons anyway I might as well show you.







<span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 02:46, 17 August 2006 (CDT)


 * The black outline and the higher color saturation makes the old version look a lot clearer. The low contrast makes Draft A look blurry, especially the small version.
 * On a side note, can you please use a white background instead of the current grey? As you know, background transparency of PNG doesn't work on IE, so IE users see an uggly grey box around each icon. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 03:20, 17 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Hehe, I realise they are more subtle than the original icons. I actually created them like this simply for a design document that I'll eventually upload which is in SVG format.


 * I don't mind uploading examples on a white background, but just so you know I'm still going to upload the icons on a transparent background, otherwise pages like Elite skills list (and any page that uses a profession icon on a coloured background) wouldn't look very good at all. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 03:24, 17 August 2006 (CDT)


 * The draft A icons look really cool, but don't put them in use in the wiki. :) --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 05:34, 17 August 2006 (CDT)


 * lol :) "Thanks but no thanks", eh Gem? :P <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 05:36, 17 August 2006 (CDT)


 * They are really really cool. But the old ones suit the wiki so much better. These would fit in somewhere else. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 05:41, 17 August 2006 (CDT)


 * A fourteen-year old girl's room, circa 1990 to be precise. These are... way too saccharine, regardless of the fact that there's the familiar Necro-skull icon in there. You got a good thing going with the old design and the new icons that go with said design. Please, please keep the black outline; the contrast works very well to make the icons noticable, but not noisy. The same can't be said for this batch. --Black Ark 06:01, 17 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I just uploaded these to see if anyone liked them. If you don't that's fine, as I said above I'm not suggesting that we should switch to these icons, I just thought that there was a slim chance that some people might prefer them.


 * What are you trying to suggest Black Ark? You calling me a girl just cos I have my room decorated like this? I'll knock your melt in! <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 06:30, 17 August 2006 (CDT)


 * At smaller size, I do like that the Mesmer icon is easier to recognize - but in general these do appear too washed out compared to the originals. I need to agree with the others that overall, the current icons are the better of the two style families.
 * pretty flat; looks like someone took the textured version of the icons and ran over them with a steam roller. might be better for press, but the 3d icons look best on the site. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 10:22, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

Draft π
For your attention, a modified Draft 1 Dervish shape:



Does this solve the problem of blurriness at small sizes? <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 06:57, 17 August 2006 (CDT)


 * This one is the best! --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 07:10, 17 August 2006 (CDT)


 * You bring me π! Where you get π? --07:26, 17 August 2006 (CDT)


 * That works for me - solves the blur and I prefer the shape over v3. I vote π! --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 09:05, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
 * everybody loves π! i still like the two color, but this is the best shape. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 10:26, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

Uploaded
I have uploaded the new Dervish and Paragon icons. I know the Dervish icon is only single colour and that this issue hadn't been properly resolved yet, but I figured that it can always be replaced/reverted in the future.

I padded the two small icons to 25x25 pixels. I'm interested to know if you think it will be better to pad all of the small icons to a uniform size or have them trimmed to be as small as possible (after all, they are supposed to be small icons).

Thanks again for all your feedback so far! Keep it coming :) <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 07:31, 20 August 2006 (CDT)
 * The small icons mostly get used in lists of mobs or skills. Keeping the widths the same will keep the attached text aligned when there's different professions within the list.  --68.142.14.32 07:51, 20 August 2006 (CDT)


 * While that's true I should point out that it will increase the size of all of the icons. Here is an example:



This is to accomodate the height of the Ranger icon and the width of the Paragon and Ritualist icons. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 08:04, 20 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Ah, took me a while to read through the talk page, but you had a really interesting discussion here.
 * I have to admit that it's some really superb artwork, but that is not my reason for posting.
 * What I wanted to ask is why the icons have a grey background, when they are saved as transparent? Mozilla Firefox show them in an excellent way,
 * but as the three of us (me, my computer and Firefox) don't get along very well, I'd like to see it work on Internet Explorer aswell. Explorer cannot add the grey itself, can it?
 * 11:19, 21 August 2006 (CDT)


 * It's IE:s fault. If you really want to use IE and see them wihtout the gray, download IE7. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 05:36, 26 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I intended to reply to this earlier, but with my computer breaking I completely forgot. There is a way to get IE6 to display PNGs properly, but it requires some JavaScript to work properly.


 * If you take a look at my blog in IE6 you can see that the PNGs are rendered with a grey background and then replaced (might be best to view this post since it has images in it!). This is thanks to this iepngfix.htc file which is included in the markup like this: <style type="text/css"> img { behavior: url("/iepngfix.htc"); } . I don't know if Gravewit would be interested in implementing this (it's a big of a pain) but it might be worth mentioning. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 05:42, 26 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Nice work... But is it just me who thinks some icons are disproportionally larger than the others? E.g. compare the dervish icon with the monk icon, it takes about twice as much area on screen, yet noone seems bothered by it -- 128.148.60.60 19:42, 1 September 2006 (CDT)


 * That's true, but the monk and dervish icons are about the same height, it's just that the dervish icon is very round. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 06:31, 4 September 2006 (CDT)

GuildWiki Policy
I've messed with Policy. I don't know if you still bother with this sort of thing, but I'm warning all the admins so as to get everyone on board. :) &mdash;Tanaric 18:45, 5 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Hey Tanaric, I do like to keep up with policy changes so thanks for letting me know! <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 05:53, 6 August 2006 (CDT)

Banning Question
Hey LordBiro why'd you ban me. I didnt do anything to unappease the gods. Grenth&#39;s Sword 22:56, 8 August 2006 (CDT)
 * In the logs, Lord Biro hasn't done a ban recently. Did you post on this page on the same connection on which you received the warning?  If so, then the fact that you can post now suggests that the ban message is likely a result of a known bug.  A false ban message is sometimes presented.  It most often impacts users who are not logged in (using an IP address) at the time that the error was generated.  :It could also be that you're using a dynamic IP address, and the random one to which you were assigned by your ISP just happenned to be a blocked one from some other user being banned. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 23:07, 8 August 2006 (CDT)

When i tried to make a change to one of my builds, it said id been blocked. then i posted that message on Lordbiro's page, and it allowed me to. Then i tried to make the edit to my build again, but that time it said i was blocked. yet you say Lord Biro hasnt blocked anyone lately. Rarrrrrrggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Lol i tried to post the above message ^ on my user page, but it aid i was blocked. i logged on and didnt know i got a warning. i logged in then tried to make a build change, and the rest is above. Grenth&#39;s Sword
 * If you know your IP address, you can try sending me an email at spam.home@comcast.net and I can verify its ban status; but if you're able to post intermittently, it sounds like the bug to me. When you get the error, you can try going back to the prior screen then try posting again. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 23:24, 8 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Hey Grenth's Sword, as Barek said I haven't carried out a ban for some time now, and even then I very rarely carry out bans other than for mass vandalism. I can't suggest any more than Barek has suggested. If you'd like my email address to discuss this off-wiki then just ask :) <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 03:36, 9 August 2006 (CDT)

Rit icon
i just ran into an interesting problem with the formatting of Unique items list (Factions), the Rt icon is too short and it's throwing off the table layout. since you're draft2 icons are undoubtedly going to be the next version, could you center the icons on a standard sized transparency to prevent this style of formatting wierdness? --Honorable Sarah 12:11, 16 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I've updated the icon. The only problem I foresee now is that, even if I pad every icon so that it meets 36x36, the Paragon icon is very wide and at the size in draft 2 it would be 46 pixels wide, including the shadow. I can trim a few pixels off that, but probably not 10. What do you think? <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 12:56, 16 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I think we should be able to standardize the profession icon size. I don't see any reason to limit ourselves to having that standard be 36x36, we could set our own standard to whatever size works; using a 36 height with a 46 width for all icons should work just as well, shouldn't it? --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 13:20, 16 August 2006 (CDT)
 * i don't think a square box matters so much, as long as it is the same box so they can be inserted uniformly. it's ANet's fault, stupid wrong-aspect-ness-ritualist-icon. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 13:45, 16 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I think the problem with the paragon icon is that the current draft is too fat (I've already told you how much I love your work, I'm allowed a little criticism too, right? ;)). Methinks the (hexagon?) base shape is too wide and it wouldn't hurt to snip a good portion of it, bringing the total shape more towards a bird and less towards a Lego with wings. With my limited GIMP-skills, I've made something that slightly resembles what I mean, for reference: [[image:para36x36.png]]. All I did was cut out the center 5 pixels, crop and resize to 36x36. -- [[Image:Bishop_icon2.png]] Bishop [ rap|con ] 15:33, 16 August 2006 (CDT)


 * That's fair enough Bishop, but what about when you consider the flower cut-out as well? You lose some detail when you try and get that much detail in a 36x36 block.


 * Besides, I really wanted it to look like a hexagon with wings. Seriously. :P


 * If you want to continue playing with the shape Bishop then I would suggest that you presume that draft 2 of the Paragon icon is going to be used. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 17:14, 16 August 2006 (CDT)


 * isn't it supposed to be a shield with wings? that seems like an ideal icon for a holy commander. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 17:19, 16 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Initially I started working from that, but it looked very much like a Warrior icon with some wings shoved on it. And I didn't think that was good enough. So I thought, you know, a hexagon shape would be cool. So there you go! <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 17:26, 16 August 2006 (CDT)


 * i still think it looks like a shield, maybe one of those Ornate Shields. whatever. i like it.--Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 17:35, 16 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Well, uh, I didn't work from the cutout shape because while I think it looks really great at the large size, it looks like someone shot a whole through the icon at the smaller sizes. In other words, it is detail overload -- there's just too much going on with the wings and the hole and the shape to fit into a small icon for the small purposes it needs to fill. -- [[Image:Bishop_icon2.png]] Bishop [ rap|con ] 02:53, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

I realise you can't make out the flower shape at the lower size, but I don't think it's to the detriment of the icon really. It does look simply like a hole in the logo, but I quite like that. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 03:11, 17 August 2006 (CDT)

Background Question
I use IE while at work - I've read that IE has a problem interpreting .png transparent backgrounds correctly, so I've just accepted the constant gray background that I see. But, oddly, I noticed in the Rune article that the Dervish icon shows the background color in IE, not a gray box like all other icons on that page. Is there something formatted differently with that allows the transparent background to work, or is it a random fluke that in this one case IE was able to interpret it correctly? (note: it's only this size where it works - when I view the smaller icon, I get a gray background for those as well). --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 11:20, 17 August 2006 (CDT)


 * It is not that IE can't interpret transparent PNGs, as such, more that it can't interpret translucent PNGs. As you can see above the Dervish icon has been anti-aliased on to a white background and then the white pixels have been deleted, so on a light coloured background it looks fine. If this icon had a dropped shadow it would be noticeable even on light backgrounds. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 11:38, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Heh, I knew you were the right person to ask - always go to the expert! Thanks for explaining it!  --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 14:58, 17 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Hehe, you are too kind Barek! And it's not a problem :) <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 15:57, 17 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Is there a setting in photoshop to change from using translucent PNGs to using full transparency? I find that even if I set the alpha channel to fully transparent in a typical PNG, it doesn't display correctly in IE. I was horrified when I first saw my user page which looked fine in Firefox but has the grey boxes in IE. --Thervold 15:55, 23 August 2006 (CDT)


 * My understanding is that it's a limitation of IE. If a miracle occurs, it may display correctly when IE 7 eventually comes out.  LordBiro likely has more accurate info though. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 15:59, 23 August 2006 (CDT)


 * IE6 can't interpret transparent PNGs in 24 BPP. But it CAN interpret this one: [[Image:Para36x36.png]] But its background is white all the time. But it's not grey anymore... I'll never understand Microsoft and their IE. I'll keep being a firefox user. --numma_cway 19:06, 25 August 2006 (CDT)




 * If someone is interested, this probelm isn't present at IE7. I just had to check. :P --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 19:33, 25 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Ha! I just did the same thing.  I  got the IE7 RC1 last night, but I couldn't get to guildwiki at the time.  I was just checking it now when I noticed your post Gem.  --Rainith 20:04, 25 August 2006 (CDT)

timing
so when can we see the draft π icons in production? the current icons look wierd resized. --Honorable Sarah 12:56, 20 August 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm pretty sure that they're already in. Try clearing your cache. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 13:15, 20 August 2006 (CDT)


 * The icons have been uploaded, but I guess Barek is right, your cache may be out of date. I was thinking that, in order to force people to see the correct image I could upload the icon under a different name and temporarily modify and  . After a week or so we could change back and that should be fine. What do you think? <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 13:32, 20 August 2006 (CDT)

Not sure where to put this
I can't quite fathom the above :o

Consider using a musical symbol for the paragon if the wings won't fit, they have all the chants, anthems and things. And another thing, would it be possible to blur the small mesmer icon a wee bit, it looks a bit jaggy! Great work btw ^^ &mdash; Skuld 11:32, 21 August 2006 (CDT)

For your consideration
If you would be so kind to take a look at GuildWiki talk:Don't immediately delete. Thanks. -Gares 12:48, 21 August 2006 (CDT)

Nightfall Guild Emblem Contest
just wanted to make sure you got your entry in, must be postmarked by tomarrow. i want a Greater Icon, not another beaver. Nightfall Guild Emblem Contest. --Honorable Sarah 10:09, 23 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Hey Sarah, I doubt I'll be able to enter anything; my computer died yesterday. Equally this means I won't be able to do much/any work on the icons! :( <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 12:38, 23 August 2006 (CDT)
 * oh no! poor thing. i hope your baby feels better soon. ;) --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 14:42, 23 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Hehe, I love that you called it my baby, that's what I call it too. Don't go telling people that though, I have a reputation to maintain :P <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 15:13, 23 August 2006 (CDT)

Builds discussion re: site policies
You may already be aware of it, but if not can you take a look at the (long) discussion at GuildWiki_talk:Style_and_formatting/Builds and voice your opinion? I'm asking several of the currently active admins to take a look. The issue, to me, is one of interpretation of site policies and practices. I was involved in the discussions earlier, so I cannot consider myself totally unbiased in any attempt to resolve it myself. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 20:58, 23 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Hi Barek, I was aware of the discussion but I wasn't aware of the recent change in opinion brought on by xas' comments. Thanks for the heads up! <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 13:10, 24 August 2006 (CDT)

Totally unimportant layout issue
It seems that your sig is messing up the table here. Any idea why? --Xeeron 04:29, 24 August 2006 (CDT)
 * I am still confused by your sig messing up that page: Take a look at the history please it randomly inserts semicolons (which I did definitly not edit in) when I move a new vote there. Confused. --Xeeron 04:49, 13 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Hey Xeeron, I have no idea why that's happening. I've altered my sig on that page to try to prevent it! <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 06:11, 13 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Looking at how the wikitext there is getting rendered as HTML, I'd say it's either someone else's HTML before that being messed up (perhaps unbalanced tags or improper nesting) or possibly just a bug. (MW has some fairly random bugs with its autoformatting combined with HTML in wikitext. MW can be set up to use tidy as a sort of crutch for this, but we're not using it here.) --Fyren 06:20, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

Skill quick reference layout
You have been taking part in the discussion earlier so I thought I might post to you among some others. I want this to be resolved pretty soon, so plese consider taking part in the discussion at GuildWiki_talk:Style_and_formatting/Skills. -- (talk) 20:01, 25 August 2006 (CDT)

Timestamp
You're trying to get a custom-formatted timestamp? If so, I changed User:LordBiro/Timestamp so it works, but it must be substituted and not included. produces 2006-08-25 03:58. (Apparently UTC.) --Fyren 22:58, 25 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Good stuff Fyren, this is exactly what I was after. I wasn't aware that you could use the tag inside template calls! <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 03:31, 26 August 2006 (CDT)

User:84.69.228.214
Isn't 1 week a bit short? I know I overlengthen sometimes but isn't that doing to the oposite? :P &mdash; Skuld 18:55, 26 August 2006 (CDT)


 * No, it's not too short. If he does the same again he'll no doubt be banned longer by anyone else who notices, and if I ban him again it will be for a month. I don't see the point in banning an IP address for a ridiculous amount of time when they'll probably not be back anyway. If they can't vandalize right now I imagine they'd lose interest after waiting even an hour or two. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 03:32, 27 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Doing a quick look at that IP address, it appears to be from some DSL user in the UK, I don't know about there but in Australia, if you're on DSL that chances are that your IP address changes regularly (Static IPs are only avaliable on some business plans or are an additional cost). So that person who did the vandalism gets a new IP in a few days time and someone else picks up 84.69.228.214 and finds they can't edit the GuildWiki. They also can't just create an account because it won't let them and probably couldn't be bothered working out how to email an admin and wait for the IP to be unblocked manually. So our anti-social vandal ends up winning again :( That's the big problem with banning an IP address, often a new person will get the address soon after. So I guess I agree with LordBiro there, if he/she comes back after a week doing the same thing, we can block for a longer period and with greater confidence that the IP "belongs" to that user. Shared IPs are another thing to think about though... --Xasxas256 05:58, 27 August 2006 (CDT)

Request for magic
Hi LordBiro. Can you work your magic on Image:RedExclaim.gif to make it look as pretty as Image:Quest-medium.png? I get a pixelated headache every time I see that red exclamation mark. Thanks in advance. 154.35.1.12 13:28, 28 August 2006 (CDT)


 * And that icon will be used a lot more really soon when the Nightfall PvE preview is here. We are lucky to have Biro on our team. All hail Biro! --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 13:46, 28 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Considering the way the icon is used I'd really like to try something a little more... interesting than just an exclamation mark. I'll post some ideas in a while :) <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 15:57, 28 August 2006 (CDT)


 * lol, what about something like this? [[Image:Warning_nightfall_128x128.png]] Maybe a little big, but it made me laugh :) <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 04:25, 29 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Good one. Put that in the c3 template. It will be a good reason to verifiy stuff in game after the game is kauched. ;) --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 05:54, 29 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Lol, done. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 06:06, 29 August 2006 (CDT)


 * That's a nice image, though I would recommend scaling it down by 15-20% or so. However it punts the issue of what to do about that ugly red exclamation mark image. If no one ever uses it again, though, I'm happy. Cf. . gr3g 07:25, 29 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Ha ha ha, I totally love it, Biro. By the way, if you find yourself feeling like doing something un-GW-related, I could use your help with a logo for a different project... ;) -- [[Image:Bishop_icon2.png]] Bishop [ rap|con ] 13:35, 30 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Hey Bishop :) I've been having a look at the fansite kit that they provide. It should be fairly easy to do something there, I'll post any updates to that wiki directly ;) <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 17:00, 30 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Thanks Biro, I knew I could count on you. You da man. :) --Bishop 05:17, 31 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I created a red exclamation mark. [[Image:RedExclaim.png]] Maybe it could be used. --numma_cway 15:10, 31 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Hehe, that looks awfully familiar ;) Good work Numma cway! I'm sure it will come in handy somewhere :) <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 15:37, 31 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Is it possible to make image redirects? I don't want to break something ;) --numma_cway 14:02, 2 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Yeah Numma cway, if you make sure the contents of an image article is like this: #REDIRECT Article name then whenever you click on that image you will be redirected to that article. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 14:12, 2 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Is it possible to use these redirects even when using an image in a text? BTW: Don't you have other freetime activities than answering your user talk? I'm a little bit shocked. It's like instant messaging. ;) --numma_cway 17:49, 2 September 2006 (CDT)


 * You know, you can test out pretty much anything you like in the Sandbox. Some times it's easier to just try stuff and see what it does. :) --Bishop 18:13, 2 September 2006 (CDT)


 * It does not work. +100 EP --numma_cway 07:42, 3 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I'm not sure what you want to do Numma cway. Looking at the sandbox at present, are you trying to replace an image based on a redirect? This is not how redirects work. Could you describe in more details the actions that you would like to see occur? <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 13:05, 3 September 2006 (CDT)


 * You're right. And I learned something. That's fine. :) --numma_cway 15:23, 4 September 2006 (CDT)

Here you go.
--Fyren 06:23, 29 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Hey! What's wrong with my aim Fyren? :P <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 06:35, 29 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Nothing. --Fyren 06:38, 29 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Shhhhhh! Or I'll start blanking in a minute! :P <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 06:42, 29 August 2006 (CDT)
 * ROFL. You guys crack me up hehe. --Xeeron 06:44, 29 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I am now wearing my badge of poor aim with pride! Thanks Fyren :P <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 07:11, 29 August 2006 (CDT)

Decision
I saw that you were concerned about User:Timir111. I banned him for the continuation of blanking pages, lastly being my user page. Somehow, he found out I was the one that deleted an old tagged build and had to blank my page in order to ask me why I needed to delete the build.

This user wasn't as naive as he lead on, I am guessing. How he knew enough to know the build was deleted, then sift through the delete logs to find out I was the one who deleted it, yet still does not have the knowledge to know not to blank or overwrite a whole article. Something didn't add up. -Gares 15:54, 30 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I've been monitoring his contributions recently and waiting for him to blank things again. Whether he is naive or not, he's blanked a lot of pages and I guess he's read the warning... since he blanked that too. He deserved to be banned and you did the right thing Gares :) <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 16:57, 30 August 2006 (CDT)

Small Ritualist icon
Loocks like the small icon for Ritualist got corrupted somehow:  Can you re-upload it please? --Rainith 04:03, 2 September 2006 (CDT)


 * It looks fine to me Rainith. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 04:46, 2 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Try clearing your browser's cache? This is what I get:  The image “http://gw.gamewikis.org/images/a/a6/Ritualist-icon-small.png” cannot be displayed, because it contains errors.   --Rainith 04:49, 2 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I've cleared the cache and still nothing, and visiting the direct url of the image and spamming ctrl+f5 hasn't done anything either. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 04:54, 2 September 2006 (CDT)


 * D'oh! Took my own advice and it seems that my cached image was corrupted.  Sorry.  :(  --Rainith 04:55, 2 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Hehe, no problem Rainith! It's an unusual problem to have, so I forgive you ;) <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 04:56, 2 September 2006 (CDT)

Generic Res icon
I disgaree with the faded monk icon. I think many will assume it's a generic monk skill or something. May I suggest you used ONE of the hands reaching up in the skill Light of Dwayna and then fade that? I hand reaching up is a generic symbol of resurrection. Better than a profession icon that may signal (uninteiotnally) the exclusion of skills like Lively Was Naomi and Felsh of My Flesh. --Karlos 17:12, 3 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Yeah, I do see your point, and as I said myself on the discussion I didn't want it to come across as implying that you need to use a monk skill. I think that the accompanying text will make it clear that the icon refers to any resurrects. Rather than one of the hands, that I don't think really imply resurrection very much anyway, I was thinking of doing an outline similar to [[Image:Resurrect.jpg]] but from the front. The only difference is that I already have a monk symbol i can use, and I'll have to do the outline from scratch :P but I'll have a look at it anyway. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 17:22, 3 September 2006 (CDT)

Icons for Mission Complete Status
First of all let my say that i really love your work (i've been using your icons for nearly one year now for my Guild-Forum-Avatar) and now i found these big versions of the class icons on your Talk Page and i have to say that they look so cool, thank you for your work.

Enough of brownnosing, lets come to the point.

On my website i have some kind of overview over the progress of my characters (look here to see what i mean). As you can see i have a need of the Prophecies- and Factions- Missions Icons like this one:. For the Prophecies Icons i just cut out the sword(s) and it looked fine. But for the Factions Icons i had to take a screenshots of different states from the map and try to outcut them and they look, as one can see, some kind of ugly.

So i wanted to ask you, if you would like to find the time to create icons of the different states of the missions in Prophecies and Factions as well, not just for my own need but for the Wiki, as it don't have (or i just couldn't find) a picture of a Factions Mission Icon.

85.212.156.149 13:58, 9 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Check the first bunch of images here. I wasn't the original uploader, though, I was just renaming them.  They're someone's screencaps of all the mission icon states.  --Fyren 15:51, 9 September 2006 (CDT)


 * The original uploader was User:Thervold. FYI --Vortexsam 17:24, 9 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Why asking for something that is already there? Thx a lot, thats just what i searched. 85.212.156.149 17:32, 9 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Last question: I'm not familiar with the Wiki System, is there any possibility to browse the uploaded images except using the Upload Log? That would help prevent such rash actions.


 * There's Special:Imagelist. --Fyren 18:15, 9 September 2006 (CDT)


 * It's nice to be helpful :) <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 04:12, 10 September 2006 (CDT)


 * You know LordB, you could always work you image magic and make your own version of the different mission icons... ;) --Rainith 04:14, 10 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Yeah, perhaps. I might give that a go some time, but I'm not in a huge rush. If there was a particular need for it on the wiki I might give it a higher priority, but at present I don't think it's really something that we can make a great deal of use from. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 06:06, 10 September 2006 (CDT)


 * And i do have what i wanted to, so just make them if you are really bored :P 85.212.164.19 09:03, 10 September 2006 (CDT)

Response to your comment on User talk:Gravewit
This is in response to this comment. I'm keeping this out of Gravewit's page as it's off topic there.

I'm not sure if you saw the full Stabber saga, but you are wrong about him not causing harm to the wiki. Long before his sockpuppetry was discovered he had already received several warnings (including an official arbitration) about his behavior on the wiki. Read what Tanaric wrote in the arbitration: he was fully in agreement with me about Stabber's behavior and contributions to the wiki. Stabber was more than a pain in the ass: he was actively harming the wiki with his drama. After his sockpuppetry was discovered, it was found that he had been using his socks to stage fights and dramatic exits without taking responsibility, and, in one instance, to double vote. His "Deldda Kcarc" identity was used almost solely to fight with Karlos and vandalize the wiki over a period of several days, leading to a series of blocks. All the while his "Stabber" persona kept up a demure front to attract sympathy. All this is well documented on the wiki. It's a completely unbelievable tale. You are maybe one of three people to still claim that his sockpuppetry was not proven. Also, if you read Xeeron's link, the community consensus about sock puppetry is clear. You are again a holdout here as nearly everyone wants socks banned on sight.

Now, I've heard it said several times that Stabber's negatives were balanced by his contributions to the wiki, but that is a ridiculous equivocation. I myself was initially of that opinion, but then I spent an entire day going through Stabber's edit history, and the only conclusion I could reach was that this user was far too big for his breeches and a net negative to the wiki. And this was before his sockpuppetry was exposed. I know that everyone now wants to make this issue about me, and that's fine, but please don't exalt Stabber in the same breath that you damn me. 64.78.164.226 (a.k.a. F G) 64.78.164.226 10:19, 20 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Thanks FG. I've read this all before, both in your posts, in other people's posts and in the arbitration.


 * I appreciate that I am very likely in the minority with my view on Stabber. I think that she was a positive influence on the wiki, for the most part, and of course you are welcome to disagree with me. That's not to say I was a fan of Stabber, we butted heads occasionally, but she argued her point reasonably and I believed (and still believe) that her intention was only ever to accurately document Guild Wars as she thought best.


 * I really don't want to further discuss this issue here. I am aware of the facts and also of the speculation and my mind is made up.


 * I am also aware that I am in the minority with regard to my view on sockpuppets, but I think my point of view is entirely reasonable. If you don't agree with me then that's fine. I posted my views on Gravewit's talk page to reiterate that I personally see no immediate need, at present, to ban sock puppets or open proxies. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 11:51, 20 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Just for the record, I want to reply to this sentence specifically: "I know that everyone now wants to make this issue about me, and that's fine, but please don't exalt Stabber in the same breath that you damn me." I don't know if this was aimed at me specifically, but when have I ever damned you? Or even spoken about you? I certainly don't want to make this issue "about you". <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 12:01, 20 September 2006 (CDT)

Be afraid...
Check out these animated GIFs... You are facing some serious competition, sir. :) --Karlos 00:42, 21 September 2006 (CDT)

Old image revisions
What do you think is best to do with this Image:Crystalline Sword.jpg? &mdash; Skuld 19:37, 21 September 2006 (CDT)
 * If someone uploads a completely new screenshot for something, the older things can go. If it's a modification of an older image, the older revisions should stay.  Ideally, people would say "I took this screenshot" on the image page so we know for sure that it's a "new" image.  --Fyren 20:36, 21 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Bare minimum, all the "reverted to an earlier revision" entries could be purged. --Rainith 21:25, 21 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I didn't see this conversation until after I deleted some of the images. I've purged all of the "Reverted to earlier" posts (other than the current one).  I've kept the original upload of the current image, as well as the original upload of prior images. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 22:52, 21 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I am opposed to deleting previous revisions of images because we have to be careful not to delete history, and because we cannot get images back if we delete them. Therefore I have a very "inclusionist" opinion on image retention, I think it's best to keep as much as possible.


 * The main reason we have for deleting images is to save on disk space. I'm not sure how much of a concern this is at the moment (I don't know if Gravewit has made any announcements) but I do think that focusing on unused images is a safer way of freeing up disk space.


 * In the instance of Image:Crystalline Sword.jpg I would not be opposed to deleting revisions if they did not have any relevance to the final image, but equally if it were left up to me I would not delete them. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 05:37, 22 September 2006 (CDT)


 * My opinnion is that all reverts should be deleted, but one copy of each different version of the image should be kept. Ie, if there is some reverting between 2-3 different versions, keep one one of each version and delete the rest. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 07:11, 22 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I think that's a difficult situation to get yourself into though. Sometimes it's not always clear which images you should remove. For example, Image:Dervish-icon.png has several versions before the final version, but I would certainly not advocate any of them being removed because they did play a part in the current design. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 08:10, 22 September 2006 (CDT)
 * But why keep the rest? My screenshot are always the best ;)  Signet of better image resolution &mdash; ├ A  ratak  ┤  09:11, 22 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Biro you didn't understand me. I ment that we should delete all EXACT copies of an image version. If 2 users go into a revert war, only keep both versions once, not a million times. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 16:05, 22 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Yeah, in that case I would not be opposed. But I think a situation where users perpetually re-upload images must be rare, unless you know otherwise :P <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 16:11, 22 September 2006 (CDT)


 * It has happened on a few occasions. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 16:13, 22 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Well certainly in any instance where there are identical revisions of a file I would not see the harm in deleting some of them, provided care was taken. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 16:14, 22 September 2006 (CDT)
 * In the case of Image:Crystalline Sword.jpg, the image had several original uploads of the image (all of which I left in the history), but the history also contained six or seven tagged as "Reverted to earlier version" (or text along those lines) that were just caused by someone switching to an earlier revision, then back to a different revision. I deleted all of these from the history to clean it up; but left the original upload of each version in the history logs.
 * In the future, I can leave these reversions in the record history - those I really don't care about. But, as long as we have sufficient disk space, I believe that all original copies of each upload should be kept in history (not including vandalism / image abuse). --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:20, 22 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Note: Someone has since also deleted an unused image that was a cropped version of one of the originally uploaded versions. Not sure who; but as the uncropped version was retained, that doesn't really concern me either.  --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:22, 22 September 2006 (CDT)


 * That's fine Barek, as Gem says, there's no point in having loads of items in the history that are identical copies. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 16:40, 22 September 2006 (CDT)

One more tiny little icon
Just wondering if you could create a new icon for Image:NA-icon-small.png. It's used in the same tables as the small profession icons, so should be resized to the same 25x20; but as long as we're doing that, I though it would be good to redo it to have the same shadow effect as the profession icons as well to keep it style-consistent. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:58, 26 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Done :) <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 05:46, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

Icon shadows
Some of the icons look really off-center. Did you center them around the icon or the icon and shadow? --Fyren 05:41, 27 September 2006 (CDT)


 * All of the profession icons are centered on the icon including the shadow. I could pad them so that they are centered on the icon only, but that would mean the icons would take up slightly more space. I don't think I could reduce the shadow any more and have it still noticeable.


 * Do you have any example pages where this stands out? <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 05:46, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

In skills where the "related skills" section has more than one profession. Example to the left.

To my eye, it seems weird that the first six share the same icon-center positioning (or close enough for my liking, heh) but the last four are off. It could be alleviated by removing the bullets as in the second column, but it still bugs me, at least. --Fyren 06:06, 27 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I'm not sure I see it myself. It looks fine to me! But if you really think there's a problem I could pad every image with an additional pixel at the top? <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 06:16, 27 September 2006 (CDT)


 * The center column is a screenshot of the left column with a 2px wide line down the center of the warrior icon (not including the shadow). --Fyren 06:21, 27 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I didn't realise you were referring to horizontal center, sorry, I thought we were discussing vertical center for some reason! Anyway, I understand what you are saying now, but the layers are all aligned properly (I just double checked my photoshop files). I think if I were to offset any of the icons by a pixel in either direction they would look even more misaligned. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 06:25, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

Does this look better? <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 06:39, 27 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Hrm, maybe just move the ritualist icon to the right by one. The elementalist icon is sort of "right-heavy" so it might be better to call the center of it the center of the circle that's the core of the flame.  Monk and paragon have odd widths so they'll always seem off by one.  The circle for the elementalist icon looks about 6px, so it's sort of the same.  Also, it's a little late, but maybe a single wing for paragon?  Or double wings in profile (as opposed to spread).  Hope you don't mind the table floatiness; I'm trying to not make your talk page huge vertically.  --Fyren 06:59, 27 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I've moved the ritualist icon to the right by one. The others all look ok to me. I'll consider revising the Paragon icon, but I really want it to be as similar as possible to the original sized paragon icon, and I'd rather not remove a wing from either. I might upload a draft if it looks good though :P <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 07:29, 27 September 2006 (CDT)


 * For the paragon, I meant just a wing (or two) with no shield/hexagon. The ranger icon's already pretty far off from the game's icon, anyway.  Or maybe just a white/gold hexagon.  I probably should have complained more about the width when it was being discussed before, heh.  --Fyren 07:35, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

Gem icon
Hi. Is it possible to get a really high res version so that I could print it on the back of a t-shirt? That would really make my day. :) (Btw, your talk page is in need of archiving) -- (talk) 17:05, 29 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I'll see what I can do Gem :) <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 17:14, 29 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Thank you very much. :) It's coming on a black t-shirt if you need to know. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 17:18, 29 September 2006 (CDT)


 * What resolution would you like it in Gem? <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 18:21, 29 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Ok, I'm going to bed, let me know what resolution you'd like and you'll get it in the morning. Oh... you'll get it alright... Mwuhahahaha... <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 18:51, 29 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Hmmm... I think the image will be 15cm high on the t-shirt. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 00:28, 30 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I've made an SVG version of the file and it's available from my blog. I'm guessing you'll want a bitmap version of the image (i.e. PNG or JPEG) which I'd rather send via email than post somewhere on the net. If you send me a wiki-email with your email address in I will email it there :) <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 13:25, 30 September 2006 (CDT)

More icons?
I was looking at Category:Weapon upgrades and it struck me how useless it was. The tables in weapon upgrade are pretty ugly, but I'm not sure how to make them suck less. Rather than headers like "axe grip" I think a weapon icon would be best. Combined with the red X icon we have and maybe a green check icon (I have no clue if we have something like that already), a lot of the columns could be slimmed to the width of the icons used. Any thoughts or willingness or iconify? --Fyren 23:17, 8 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Hey Fyren, I'm not 100% sure what you envisage. I think it would be quite straightforward to produce some icons for each weapon, as for each upgrade that might be a little trickier. Looking at weapon upgrade, every upgrade is sectioned off into prefix and suffix, which would make things a lot easier. You could have one "axe icon" in prefix and one identical "axe icon" in suffix.


 * I'll give it some thought Fyren and see if I can sort out some pretty weapon icons. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 05:46, 9 October 2006 (CDT)


 * The point is to remove a ton of the empty space and make them prettier and to pave the way for redirection of articles like Of Enchanting and Axe Grip to weapon upgrade. Just icons for weapons, not each upgrade, would be needed since the data is already split into a prefix table and a suffix table.  So "axe grip" and "axe haft" would get replaced by an axe icon.  All the data in those columns are either "x" or " " to denote whether such an upgrade exists, so [[Image:NA-icon-small.png]] and a checkmark could replace them.  --Fyren 06:04, 9 October 2006 (CDT)


 * I'm not really sure what style to go for at this point, but I've uploaded a kind of first draft.




 * What do you think? Are they all distinguishable? <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 15:43, 9 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Me likes. :) The only problem I see is with the spear and the staff. Maybe make the spear head a little larger and lose the head of the staff altogether (as in Bo Staff, plainest staff possible)? Other than that I would make the daggers a little smaller and would remove the spike from the head of the hammer, but that's just me. :) --<font color="midnightblue">84-175 (talk) 15:52, 9 October 2006 (CDT)


 * I don't think it's a good idea to base the staff on the Bo Staff. It's basically just a rectangle :/ I based it on the Holy Staff. If that's not apparent then I should maybe alter it a bit, but I thought that the Holy Staff is the most easily distinguishable of all the staves that I've seen. When I see it I think "staff".


 * I can appreciate you wanting the daggers smaller, I just made them the same size as the others because it fit the icon. I'm not sure what you mean by removing the spikes from the hammer... Could you be a bit more specific? <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 16:58, 9 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Good draft, I like them too! Just more opinions here from someone with little to no icon-making tallents of his own:
 * It looks like the current spear design is based on the sun spear; I think the brass or crenellated are simpler spear designs that would be more easilly recognised in sillouette. I agree that a holy staff is the more recognisable staff design.
 * For the daggers, the current crossed design reminds me a lot of the crossed sword design for prophecy mission/bonus. I think that uncrossing them and making them smaller, as well as removing or shrinking the bar above the handle, would make them more recognisable.  --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 17:05, 9 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Great stuff again! The daggers could be smaller and the spearhead a bit larger, but I like the current staff version. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 08:45, 10 October 2006 (CDT)


 * These look nice, I would recommend three things:
 * 1) Make two versions of each icon, each version highlights a different "end" of the weapon. I know that the tables are separate, but it would not hurt to have both graphics on. i.e. a version with the axe haft bright and grip dark and vice versa.
 * 2) The spear is fine, the staff should be changed to something like a Jeweled Staff (the lower art) that is more easily distinguishable from a spear.
 * 3) Daggers hould be made smaller, also perhapd make them pointing down and make the angle less than 90 degrees bewteen them.
 * --Karlos 09:16, 10 October 2006 (CDT)


 * I meant the top end of the hammer's handle that's sticking out of the hammer's head. It's just a little visual thing and I don't think it matters much. I understand that the daggers should match the other icons in size. I find Barek's idea of uncrossing them very good. How about two daggers side by side, diagonally (like so: //)? That way the daggers could be smaller while keeping the overall size of the icon. My point with using the Bo staff is: There should be only one icon that resembels "a long stick that's slightly thicker at one end". The snake headed Jeweled Staff, as suggested by Karlos, would be a good alternative. --<font color="midnightblue">84-175 (talk) 16:02, 10 October 2006 (CDT)

Sorry it's taken me a while to reply to this. Unfortunately I've been busy with some other things recently. Regarding the daggers, I have no problem making them smaller. I'll experiment with some different positions, but I do quite like having them crossed.

I'm not sure that having a light and dark section makes sense. If I was making an icon for the axe blade, would the blade be light or dark? I think an opaque/translucent combination would be better, but even then, this would not work very well. You would not easily be able to notice if I made the bow string translucent, or even transparent. What part of the staff would I make opaque to indicate "staff wrapping"? Just everything other than the head? Does that accurately describe what the wrapping is? Would making the dagger handles transparent be noticeable? I don't think that trying to highlight different sections of the weapon would be well communicated through an icon of this size.

The hammer is based on the Foehammer. I think the little bit at the top looks fine. If a lot of people agree that it's out of place I'll move it.

I don't think the Bo Staff is interesting enough (it's just a stick) and I don't think the Jeweled Staff is staff-like enough. The double head makes it look very unusual, and personally if I were to see the outline of the staff I would not think "that's a staff", I would think "what the hell is that?". It looks like some sort of deformed fork :P If anyone has another suggestion for a staff I would consider it, but personally I think that the Holy Staff is one of the most recognisable (and staff-like) staffs in the game. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 17:11, 13 October 2006 (CDT)


 * I like the hammer and staff as they are. Like you said, highlighting the parts would not work well on some of the icons. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 02:51, 14 October 2006 (CDT)

Web design?
Not sure who to ask, but at least you apparently have some interest in the tangentally related field of graphic design. Do much web design? I'm trying to move all the appearance-related aspects of the skill boxes out out of the templates (and out of the old HTML attributes) and into a stylesheet. I have no idea if the way I'm applying classes and defining them in the CSS is good or not. At best, I'm doing what makes sense to me and results in stuff looking like they did already. The CSS is at User:Fyren/monobook.css (put it in your user space, gamewikis.css if that's the skin you use) and some examples of things using it at GuildWiki talk:Sandbox/Skill box ias and Sandbox/Symbiosis, if you're willing and able to help. --Fyren 08:54, 16 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Nesting tables is often messy, and CSS for tables is always going to be equally messy, but looking through what you've done so far it all makes sense. One thing that I've noticed (although I think this is just how all skill articles have worked for some time, and I hadn't noticed) is that there is no h2 in the template. I guess this is because of the way MediaWiki treats headlines in the TOC? Anyway, other than that it all looks good so far. There are a lot of rules in your CSS, but that's generally unavoidable when you have nested tables. I'll have another look later tonight if I'm a bit less busy and let you know if I can see anything that could be improved. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 10:49, 16 October 2006 (CDT)


 * The header is fake (see div.fakeh2 in the CSS) since a real one would add a section edit link that would end up showing people the template source. That's probably bad and unexpected.  Currently, there's a link that looks the same as a section edit, but people complained about it not being obvious how to edit skills details, so I moved it down to closer to the skill box and made the text "edit skill details" instead (and out of the fakeh2 div and into the skill box table).  I was thinking about rewriting it to use divs instead of tables, but I didn't think it would make the CSS much different.  --Fyren 11:00, 16 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Yeah, I had a look at the CSS but I didn't realise it was because the edit link would go to the template. It makes sense I suppose. Overall I think that tables are used more than necessary on the GuildWiki. The progression table, however, is definitely not an instance of this.


 * You could reformat the quick reference as an unordered list but, in honesty, I'm not sure if that would be worthwhile. It would make the wiki code look a lot cleaner, but you would have to use a lot of CSS in order to have it look like it does now. Maybe that means we should use a different layout, but I don't really think that that would be a straightforward change. <span style="font-family: Georgia, serif"> &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 14:12, 16 October 2006 (CDT)