Talk:Spectral Agony

Maybe I went a little overboard with the table notes. Besides that, perhaps someone can muster more regeneration to find the missing value in the table. I can't really think of anything else to say on the subject of SA. Should I submit this for peer review? --Fyren 10:16, 27 Jun 2005 (EST)

Does this table still hold true? Now that infusion runs infuse all armor pieces can you go on multiple runs to get better infusion? 01:32, 28 Jun 2005 (EST)

As it says, it's for number of infused pieces worn. Infusing already infused armor does nothing. Is this unclear in the article? --Fyren 03:38, 28 Jun 2005 (EST)

Since no one else has said anything, I'm adding the peer review tag. --Fyren 11:08, 29 Jun 2005 (EST)

I went out to Abbadon's Mouth to double check your data, and noticed that the Degen was wrong for both 1 infused piece and no infused pieces. Have fixed that, the rest of the table is accurate. --Zerris 16:49, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Technically, it was right for 0. --Fyren 20:07, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 * True, but '>=' looked rather ugly to me :) --Zerris 20:42, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Picture
Hey, Geeman, you do realize that this icon is for every monster-specific attack/skill and it's not just the icon for Spectral Agony. For example, Siege Wurms have their Siege Attack and it has the same icon. Grasping Ghouls have "Nibble" which I am not cquite sure what it does.

I suggest we put these monster skills in a skill-box like all other skills but with this icon. --Karlos 15:32, 10 Aug 2005 (EST)
 * I mentioned that on the talk page for the picture already!@# But anywhere, there'd be nothing in the skill box besides the name and picture.  There's no other info.  --Fyren 23:10, 10 Aug 2005 (EST)

skill type...
is this a spell? I didn't think so, which means mesmers cannot slow or block it. Only the two skill interrputs would work (but then how fast does this cast?) -PanSola 19:03, 11 February 2006 (CST)

It seems to cast pretty fast. Not instantanuous, but definitly under a second (1/4 I'd say). Now, the big question is: is it affected by Diversion. --theeth 21:25, 11 February 2006 (CST)

Cleanup on this article
This is one of the BEST monster skill articles we have. Why tag it for cleanup simply because a change (which has not been agreed upon or required) is desired? Cleanup tags are not for "desired changes" they are for articles failing to meet a standard. We have no standard on monster skill articles and most of them look a lot shoddier than this. We also need to re-think the classical skill template for monster skills. For example, notes must be places that if cast and recharge time are listed, they are only estimates/computed, not actual. We should list more prominently who uses them right away, and we should have a section for countering them (if used by foes). --Karlos 20:31, 26 June 2006 (CDT)

Spectral Agony on pets
I was testing a beast master build in Iron Mines of Moladune, partially because I had just gotten a beast mastery mask and I was getting it infused. After infusing it I decided to press on and complete the mission. Here's where it becomes important to note that I'm using Symbiotic Bond to reduce the damage my pet takes. Once my pet had been hit by one of the Jade Armors behind Markis at the end of the mission, I saw a stream of -11 (Symbiotic Bond) appearing on my screen, indicating that pets only have the equivalent of 3 pieces of infused armor. If pet type matters at all (I don't think it would), mine is a Hearty Stalker. --XT-8147 06:06, 12 July 2006 (CDT)

magical protections
(...)but unlike most other skills, no type of magical resistance is effective against it(...)

actually, protective spirit limit the damages taken. wearing a non infused armor against mursaats/jades as a 55 will not lead to an instant death


 * However, the 24 health degen (and 5 damage per second) does kill you.


 * Spells that heal on damage are good against it, such as Mark of Protection. That can't heal all of it, but it reduces it quite a bit so that the remaining damage is easier to heal. Monks can keep an uninfused person alive - even the henchmen can do this - but it takes a lot of energy meaning it's hard to heal anyone else. Having just one piece of infused armour reduces the effect of it enough to make it a lot easier to keep that person alive. Remember that originally each piece of armour had to be infused separately, that's why you can get infused in the Ring of Fire missions as well. --Carth 19:39, 9 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I'm surprised that this wasn't mentioned before, but seriously- interrupts are effective against it. Cry of Frustration for one effectively blocks it. Sure, one Mesmer won't stop a whole mob, but has anyone tried interrupts from other professions? It could be very useful to add a note about this. -- Elveh 14:05, 26 February 2007 (CST)


 * It definitely seems like there should be more out there that can counter this. I haven't gotten a chance to test it, but I'm thinking Blackout could work. What about Simple Thievery? Pretty nuts to think you could steal it and use it... Abraxus 15:40, 30 May 2007 (CDT)

I would like to add to this tho that Spirit Bond is an awesome counter to this, and a non-infused character can easily tank through two spectral agonies without trouble, before the spirit bond nerf a character could easily tank several mobs uninfused with this skill. Trust me, i did it with my necro the day before the nerf and farmed three jades after it easy. Any more becomes a struggle now tho  ~ Soqed Hozi ~  17:03, 4 March 2007 (CST)

Stats
1/4 cast, 15s recharge &mdash; Skuld 11:37, 15 September 2006 (CDT)

What's with the 1...24 and 3...81 stuff? What's it linked to? -- Nova   --  (contribs) 19:43, 19 February 2007 (CST)
 * The number of infused pieces you are wearing I would think but Im not sure how the values match up Ekrin 21:03, 19 February 2007 (CST)
 * I think that it should instead be 24...1 and 81...3 as the amount of damage/degen goes down with more infused pieces (think of the infused pieces as "attributes"). I'm going to change it, but if anyone feels differently, please change it back.--[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 18:36, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

Reveal/Inspired Hex
Hi folks,

has anyone tried Inspired/Reveal Hex on the agony? --Jorx 19:00, 3 July 2007 (CDT)


 * Probably not, cause it's not a hex. --Heelz 19:02, 3 July 2007 (CDT)

Jade
I could be wrong, but i have never seen the jade use this skill. Rather, they seem to inflict it on an uninflicted opponent with every attack. Can someone confirm/deny this.
 * Um, I think your wrong. The Hobo 18:39, 9 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Confirmed. As ive beleived since prophecies came out, jade don't use spectral gony, they infliict it each attack, but only if the character is unafflicted(ie. won't renew it's length.)  Tested in ice floe, killed a group of mursaat and kept jade alive.  Not fully sure how to post screenies on the wiki, but anyone else can test and show for themselves.  For now, im updating the atricle to reflect this. Bob fregman 20:47, 13 July 2007 (CDT)
 * You are wrong. Jade will use it on you in Iron Mines of Moladune and other places; seen it hundreds of time. Reverting. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 22:01, 13 July 2007 (CDT)

After testing, I think Hobo's right about them inflicting SA on attacks. I'm not sure if they don't have the skill though.

Here, I isolated one Jade Armor and had him targeted to see if he used the skill directly.

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/1433/gw042yi9.jpg

And here is SA being applied on me simultaneously with its attack. Note that the skill does not appear under its health bar.

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/6097/gw043ft7.jpg

Ignore my ridiculous skill bar. I would also like to add that I took on mobs of Jades and cycled through them with tab to see if any of them once used SA directly and never saw it. But maybe I was just unlucky. EDIT: whoops, Hobo's not the one who made the claim. --Heelz 23:09, 13 July 2007 (CDT)

As i said, i did the same test(sorry for no screens) and thusfar everybody seems to agree except entropy. Get a screenshot of them casting. Until then im goiing to keep it changed. Bob fregman 23:12, 13 July 2007 (CDT)


 * I can also prove you wrong with reverse logic: I have been attacked by a Jade Armor and not been affected by Spectral Agony; therefore, your theory is incorrect. I will get a screenshot and prove you wrong, but until then, you should know that you just broke GW:1RV. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 23:27, 13 July 2007 (CDT)
 * After doing a test in Iron Mines, a Jade Armor would inflict Spectral Agony on a Wild Blow (happened twice). Can't confirm if they inflict it on non-skill attacks as well. --Kale Ironfist 23:35, 13 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Judging by that, that makes me want to say that it's based on critical hits rather than skill-only hits. --Valentein 23:40, 13 July 2007 (CDT)


 * Assume good faith. We've provided screenshots for our cause, and tests have revealed that they don't cast it, and I know that they cause it on hit, from my own testing.  You revert was uncalled for. Bob fregman 00:22, 14 July 2007 (CDT)
 * To provide linkage: GW:AGF [[Image:GDSig.JPG]] 00:24, 14 July 2007 (CDT)

Also, to mention, i can confirm that the jade in ice floe don't need it to occur on critical hits, they occur on all hits. It won't refresh spectral agony that's already on you however. I know because i was nearly permanantly under the effect while fighting only 1 jade. Bob fregman 00:26, 14 July 2007 (CDT)


 * GW:AGF doesn't exempt you from GW:1RV, and there is no such thing as an uncalled for revert if another editor honestly disagrees with an edit...no matter who is "actually right". Regardless of the correctness of your edits (which are still in question since your testing is not totally conclusive proof, yet), you reverted a revert to your edits and thus broke policy. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 00:27, 14 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Exception: A first revert without any explanation conflicts with GuildWiki:Assume good faith, is not protected by this policy, and may be fair game for re-reversion. However, remember to assume good faith of the conflict with the policy, and do not simply re-revert any unexplained edit without reviewing both versions of the article. Copied from GW:AGF Bob fregman 00:29, 14 July 2007 (CDT)

I would say screenshots are at least a better argument than "Um, I think you're wrong" and "seen it hundreds of times". And it's not like he reverted without some substance. --68.111.77.29 00:35, 14 July 2007 (CDT)

Cause you never have too much evidence

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/1889/gw026xm9.jpg

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/6712/gw029ez5.jpg   Notice that wild blow is not on the side of my screen, it wasn't an auto crit. By tommorow, ill confirm with stoneflesh that it isn't reliant on a critical hit.Bob fregman 00:41, 14 July 2007 (CDT)


 * Balanced Stance works too. [[Image:GDSig.JPG]] 00:42, 14 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah, just kidding. <_<; [[Image:GDSig.JPG]] 00:43, 14 July 2007 (CDT)


 * My revert stated "rv: not true" and I stated both on this page and on your user talk page my reasoning. To reiterate, I have personally observed results that directly contradict your claims; hence, I reverted your edits on the grounds that I believed them to be false. If you sir, consider that to be "without any explanation" then I don't know what to say. As to Mr. Anon: to quote you, "And it's not like he reverted without some substance." That applies equally to my own edits, as well. Every person's observations are of equal value. You may want to consider that for a long, long time, the information in this article was considered correct...namely that Jade would use the Spectral Agony skill. Only now, after more than two years, has Mr. Bob Fregman posted his disagreement to this long-accepted phenomenon. Since no one ever questioned it before, there are currently no screenshots to show a Jade using Spectral Agony...and, obviosuly, I never thought to take a screenshot of it since I had to idea it would ever be a contested fact. However, though it currently lacks hard evidence, that side of the argument has the weight of time on it. If Jade truly never used Spectral Agony...then tell me, why did it take more than two years for someone to figure it out and change the article? Moreover, if a user such as myself has seen Jade units using the skill, then what does that mean? The only conclusion I can see is that Bob Fregman is incorrect. I've looked at the screenshots. I don't accept them as conclusive proof towards Jade applying Spectral Agony on hit for two reasons: (1) I have seen them use the skill, namely, the skill icon appearing underneath the health bar. And (2) There have been times when I am not under the effects of Spectral Agony, a Jade Armor hits me, and I am still not under the effects of Spectral Agony. So, assuming that Bob Fregman is correct, I should have been hit with Spectral Agony, eh? But, that didn't happen...so, he is incorrect. Besides that: the only really hard proof that one can use for a monster having or not having a skill is through a Signet of Capture screenshot. But, since this is a Monster skill, that is obviosuly impossible.
 * I will grant you this, though it is a slim possibility. Perhaps, in some very recent update, ANet changed the mechanics for Spectral Agony, and only in regards to Jade. If that is in fact the case, then I humbly apologize and I withdraw all erroneous edits I may have made. However, I highly doubt this is the case. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 00:52, 14 July 2007 (CDT)
 * 1. I noticed back when i first started prophecies when it came out that this was the case, so it isn't a recent update, everybody makes mistakes, stop trying to cover it up just admit it and move on. Proof that it doesn't require a crit.  Jade bows work too, but im not in the mood to play and i accidentally killed all the jade bow before the armor.  If anyone wants to argue with this ill get a screen later.

http://img462.imageshack.us/img462/6990/gw038rr2.jpg

Bob fregman 00:59, 14 July 2007 (CDT)

Also entropy, your personal experience is trumped by multiple screenshots. Perhaps you weren't paying attention, or who knows, but you can't argue with our shots. Why dont you go out and test it yourself. Bob fregman 01:03, 14 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Oops, sorry, that message from Mr. Anon was mine. I apologize if I implied your revert had no substance either. But as long as we're referencing GWiki policy, I'm sure you're familiar with GW:YAV. K, I'm done here. --Heelz 01:10, 14 July 2007 (CDT)

I have just been outside Ice Floe, killing several groups of Jade and Mursaat, and I observed the Jade do not use Spectral Agony. Unfortunately my computer is too laggy to do any kind of sophisticated testing the sort Bob has done, but it certainly goes against my previous knowledge about the skill. --Ufelder 01:14, 14 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Well I'm no wiki wiz, but that sounds sufficent to me. If entropy has no further complaints, then someone should make the note on the jade and jade bosses page.  Unfortunatly, it's late here, and i'm going to bed, but if it's not done by my next login i'll add the notes. Bob fregman 01:16, 14 July 2007 (CDT)


 * And now you're getting close to breaking GW:NPA by accusing me of "making mistakes", "trying to cover it up", and implicitly, lying ("not paying attention"). You also tell me to "just admit it and move on", as well as saying that "your personal experience it trumped by multiple screenshots...you can't argue with our shots" - clearly you think my opinion is worth dirt and is hence irrelevant as a reason behind a revert. That also makes you a hypocrite, since you earlier accused me of breaking "Assume Good Faith", which you are clearly not following. Take your own advice before you give it.
 * I have one question for you: if you noticed that this was the case so very long ago, why did you not edit this page ages and ages ago and thus avoid this whole conflict in the first place? Like I said, that is over two years ago...ample time for even an anon to make an edit (which you aren't). You could say that perhaps you only recently found out about GuildWiki, but I highly doubt that is the case either. And even if you weren't entirely sure...perhaps, as you say, it was just something you noticed but weren't 100% convinced yet or didn't have enough evidence, etc...you could still have left an open note on the Talk page. An inquiry, you know - "hey has anyone else noticed Jade don't actually use the skill" - so that perhaps the Spectral Agony article would not sit around incorrect (or correct as I believe it is) for such a long time. I just don't get it. I am aware that this is just arguing semantics and, in regards to the issue in debate, it is irrelevant. But, it's illogical and I am honestly curious as your reasoning.
 * Finally. In response to "Why dont you go out and test it yourself" and me having no complaints. That's what I am trying to do, but unfortunately, as you can see, I am being engaged here on GWiki defending my views and I am not skilled enough to do both things at once. (not to mention many, many, many edit conflicts) I wouldn't want to be "not paying attention" and miss something, you know. As soon as I can, I'm going out to do testing and get screenshots of my own. Until I am completely satisfied, I still object to your edits, and I am still convinced that you are breaking 1RV by re-adding notes, so I should probably go ask an admin to review in any case before I drop my case.
 * PS. Ufelder, despite what you observed, your statement "it certainly goes against my previous knowledge about the skill" still goes towards my side of the argument. Thanks for that. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 01:23, 14 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm going to go grab screenies as well because I'm wondering about this now.--Gigathrash 01:39, 14 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Oh, and I forgot to mention: like you, Bob Fregman, I have to sleep sometime (as much as I wish not to). We'll continue this another day, I guess. Trying to take SC when you're falling asleep at the comp is a really bad thing, I've found out. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 01:41, 14 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Heres my two pics:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a249/Gigathrash/gw046.jpg http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a249/Gigathrash/gw047.jpg
 * I'd say they would inflict it with attacks, not sure if crit to not crit biased. That's my two cents, toodle pip!--Gigathrash 02:03, 14 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Just to advise Bob Fregman, I've had the same experience Entropy has had (they would actually USE Spectral Agony). While the limited testing I've done shows otherwise, it is still very limited (one instance in Iron Mines of Moladune versus 3 separate Jade Armors). --Kale Ironfist 03:23, 14 July 2007 (CDT)
 * This is definitely reasonably new, I ran through Proph again with my warrior (around 5 weeks ago) and I don't remember getting SA from normal hits. 5 weeks is a long time but still..... The Hobo 03:54, 14 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Just wandered into the ring of fire to check this out, and it seems the jade don't use spectral agony. It was reapplied everytime with wild blow, and in some cases without so my opinion would weigh in the direction of critical hits. Also, I am fairly certain I could remember them casting it a while back. Lord of all tyria 04:07, 14 July 2007 (CDT)

Critical hits and wild blow aren't a factor(tested with stoneflesh). I can say, with full certainty, that this is not a new occurence. If they did used to cast it awhile back, then they also inflicted it on there attacks. I remember because back before your henchmen got infused, i used to have an extremely hard time beating the jade that acompanied markis. I meant no insult towards you entropy, and i apologize.Bob fregman 08:09, 14 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Back when they did activate the skill, they did not inflict it with attacks. However, this information is very old, since the last time I can certify that as being true is well over a year ago. --Kale Ironfist 08:56, 14 July 2007 (CDT)
 * They always have inflicted it with attacks. Unfortunatly i can't prove this, so we'll just keep a history note off and keep with what we know about it today, since neither of us can prove either side wrong.Bob fregman 09:08, 14 July 2007 (CDT)

And one final test. They only inflict it on successful hits. If the attack is blocked, misses due to blind or dodging, or is obstructed, then the attack will not inflict spectral agony. Bob fregman 10:05, 14 July 2007 (CDT)


 * Since this issue has become such a big deal, I've got to bring it up: Is it at all worth noting that it could have happened through a semi-recent update?  That would save Entropy's dignity and Bob would still be correct.  >_>

I'll also mention that I'm pretty sure I've seen them use Spectral Agony at some point as well. So many people observing them use it and then suddenly testing it to find that they don't points quite strongly that sometime over the last several months Anet has changed the way Jade Armor inflict Spectral Agony. 10:18, 14 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I can assure you that they've always caused it with there attacks, though it's very possible that they used to cast it as well, and that the redundant casting was recently removed. Only one way to find out, we have to ask Gaile.  That'd be an interesting question. Bob fregman 10:40, 14 July 2007 (CDT)


 * For the longest of times while playing as a Ranger and a Monk and getting near the end of the game, I have been attacked by Jades and not been inflicted by it, and (at least before the Fire Islands) have seen them using the skill. From my experience, they appear to use it when you see them in the Shiverpeaks, and do not inflict with their attacks, and I can't say either way with the Fire Islands: I do not remember specifically seeing them use it, nor have their attacks inflict it on me --Gimmethegepgun 19:36, 14 July 2007 (CDT)
 * It's confirmed that the jade in the Southern Shiverpeaks inflict it on attack. In fact, that's where my original tests took place.  What people remember in the past is now irrelevant.  Do we have a consensus for it's current function.  It seems obvious that it's not casted but rather inflicted on every successful normal hit.Bob fregman 01:22, 15 July 2007 (CDT)
 * "What people remember in the past is now irrelevant." O rly? [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 02:03, 18 July 2007 (CDT)
 * "Put the past behind you." The Hobo 03:43, 18 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Looking at Signet of Ghostly Might, I guess we don't keep historical notes for Skills of any kind, no matter how extraordinary they may be. So, I'll concede defeat, but only because of past precedent. And, I'm still searching for an SC. Just you wait. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:53, 18 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Probably a bit late to this party but I have the same thing. Jades don't cast it but it is applied when they hit. Don't think it's with every hit though --Blue.rellik 05:33, 21 July 2007 (CDT)

Okay. I've tested this for over 12 hours in every explorable area and mission where you fight Jade, and I've encoutered every Jade Armor and Jade Bow boss too. I concede defeat: regardless of critical hits, damage inflicted, skill usage, etc etc. Jade Armor and Jade Bow inflict Spectral Agony on a successful hit.

But I swear on everything that I stand for, that it didn't used to be this way and I have seen them cast it. So in the end I blame ANet and their love of inconsistency. (T/C) 18:02, 21 July 2007 (CDT)