User talk:Readem/Buildbox SH Elementalist

Discussion
Seeing as this build is indirectly in the untested section, I am not sure if you want the R-a-B added yet. But I will leave a few comments. First of all, this build is coming from someone who complains about kiting foes and that one slowing hex is not enough. Excuse me, but SH and FS... everyone knows that these are the two skills that need cripple / slowing hexes the most. It is even easier to run from SH and FS than a melee player. Now, please don't post a hypocritical build, at least have the decency to add knockdown or a water hex. --Lord Carnage 16:43, 1 April 2007 (CDT)

Used it more then once, no need for anti-kite. Isn't meant for Killing, but all pressure. Constant degen from MoR is plenty enough. better for organized PVP. SH is does need anti-kite but is used strategically more then anything. In TA, my guild runs something similar to this, w/ a thumper, BoA sin using Horns, and a ZB prot. Everyone usually weilds Fire weps as well. Very good pressure build. Readem (talk *contribs ) 18:40, 1 April 2007 (CDT)

Oh, and btw, melee builds need anti-Kite. Besides, gale+SH is horrible w/ gale being only 2 seconds now. And this is for a quick win team. Readem (talk *contribs ) 18:42, 1 April 2007 (CDT)

You obviously didn't pay attention to what I wrote. Yes, melee needs anti-kite, but SH and FS need them more (what, you plan on only hitting them with 1 to 2 hits?)! And did I once say gale? No. I was saying at least bring something to stop them from kiting. You have nothing, not even a short ice hex. SH and FS aren't spike skills, they are useless unless you can hold foes in them. Now, even if they are stupid enough to stay in there, SH, FS, and Glowing gaze is low total damage output with long recharging skills (SH and FS). You are sacrificing the damage potential of an Elementalist, merely to keep yourself alive a little longer. Leave the healing to the monks, dude. As long as you can do your job and keep pressure on the other team, your monk(s) should be capable of keeping the team alive. Sure, you may be frustrated by the lack of monks in RA, but thats no excuse to use builds that only keep themselves alive and are not capable of killing an enemy. --Lord Carnage 19:57, 1 April 2007 (CDT)

You would be surprised, how often a team will be completely destroyed by this build. They are suddenly Burning and takeing rather large amounts of damage. While running, the BoA sin and Thumper ar able to gank at least one foe. Ice hexes with SH = lame. Anyone knows that. And gale is one of the most powerful and most used KD skill in the game, but it is still not enough to keep a target in SH. FS has an extremely large AoE effect, and in crowded spaces, it forces the opponent to run quite a distance. GG, is a great skill, allowing great energy management, and additional pressure. Keeping alive is essential, in all categories of PVP...why do you think DP+DE+FN combo got nerfed? Every caster in the game was using it, to what? Survive. Besides, this is for a Q kill team, or pressure team, meant to be with multiple gankers. Readem (talk *contribs ) 20:08, 1 April 2007 (CDT)

Have you even tried this in PvP? Completely destroyed? Umm, what? Most people ARE NOT STUPID and aren't going to sit in there unless you force them to stay there. As soon as I see an AoE, no matter what char I am, I WILL MOVE. Oh, wow, you did maybe 50 damage to me in that time. Wow, that tickled. Oh, no, what's this? I'm burning for 3 sec from my brief stint in the FS and SH under MoR over there? Oooh, that reaaally scares me. Crap, i guess I'll have to wait 25 seconds until he can start his loop again, shucks. Oh, what's this? He's wanding me and using GG every 8s while I have rodgort on me, attempting to keep me burning? Pfft, hardly what I could call spike damage or pressure. One hex removal and that puny damage is worthless. BTW, I never dissed any of the skills individually, but how incorrectly they are used. Let's see, you are a damage dealer. You have only three damage skills (four, if you count the burning effect of MoR). Two of which have low cooldown and can easily be escaped, due to lack of any movement-hindering skills. Oh, and BTW, SH combined with a water hex (other than Tenai's prison and Icy Prison, as they end on fire damage) is FTW. It doesn't matter if you have low water magic, as you only need it to last a few seconds longer than SH (to allow for casting time). Besides, you are already using the cover hex, MoR. The monks aren't going to do the damage for you. Even if you can heal yourself, if you can't keep the pressure on the other team, you will fall. --Lord Carnage 20:41, 1 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Ever heard the term "Taking control of the feild"? This build does that exceptionally well. And actually, that is what it was designed to do.Readem (talk *contribs ) 22:48, 1 April 2007 (CDT)

Oh, and BTW, some other user has already recommended Gale under the SH description. Know why? Sure its only 2s KD, but the damage under SH compounds every second, it is well worth the exhaustion if it means the foe will be in the SH and FS longer. All I'm saying is that you need SOMETHING to keep them in the AoE. --Lord Carnage 20:44, 1 April 2007 (CDT)

Oh, wow, just noticed another huge mistake of yours. You say that "FS has an extremely large AoE effect" (your exact words). READ THE DESCRIPTION ON Fire Storm. Note how it says ADJACENT, which so happens to be the smallest AoE range in the game! Don't try to outdo me on knowledge of skills, particularly ele skills. --Lord Carnage 20:47, 1 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I wasn't trying to out do anyone...who you kidding? Readem (talk *contribs ) 22:44, 1 April 2007 (CDT)

You think I know nothing about how gale works? Of course SH has compound damage, thus making it more effective the longer the target is in it. It just doesn't have good synergy. And when did I mention Exhaustion? Oh and btw, read comments before ranting. I said this is meant for organized PVP (you know, when the players talk about strategy), this build cannot cause a "Team Wipe" but then again, what build can? FS, has a considerable AoE Radius, for the duration it lasts. By using a thing known as "math", 10 seconds of Adj AoE, is not bad at all. And what are you talking about when you say "Most people ARE NOT STUPID"... why do you think 30% of the population in RA are Mending wammos...? Just something to consider. Readem (<font color="Black">talk *<font color="Black">contribs ) 21:37, 1 April 2007 (CDT)

Ok, well, then you should state that this build requires the support of a Thumper or a Water Ele, or something to keep them in it. Basically, then, you are counting on several things. In RA, you are counting on the majority of the people to be stupid and ignorant of AoE, which, I must concede, is a very true fact of RA these days. The majority of people of RA are utter noobs. So, then, yes, you could just barely kill a group of people if they all sat adjacent to each other and didn't move from the AoE, getting hit by SH, FS, GG, and burning from MoR. However, you did not state this build for just RA. For, as soon as you reach organized PvP (note the organized, which you yourself are so glad to point out), your team should have monks that know how to keep themselves alive and can still heal the party effectively, so you have no need of the self-heal/protection. There, people are smart enough to move out of FS and SH, particularly in GvG and HA (you should read up how small adjacent is. FS has a large animation range, but that doesn't mean that is its damage range). Thus, you would need the coordination with people with KD's, crippling, and/or Water Hexes. However, for such coordinated PvP, one would want added damage output, as two damage skills every 25s (SH) to 30s (FS) is not enough to keep pressure on the other monks. Granted, you have GG, which is a good skill, but what else can you contribute in between? Wanding them? Sure, as long as MoR is on them, it keeps them burning. Organized PvP requires steady, high, damage output, or else quick huge damage spikes, neither of which this build has. --Lord Carnage 22:33, 1 April 2007 (CDT)

BoA sins take out anything... they are not picky. And even good monks in TA get overwhelmed when the party is burning. W/ a thump on there tail, the party burning, and someone being pressured by a BoA, they get pretty damn confused. This build is meant to keep perpetual burning on the party and to control the feild. Though I do not enjoy using it, gale is added for HA and GvG. <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Black">talk *<font color="Black">contribs ) 22:42, 1 April 2007 (CDT)

A monk SHOULD be able to handle a BoA sin, as long as the damage dealers are keeping the pressure on the other team. If they cannot, they shouldn't be a monk. Again, back to the noob issue... there are alot of noobs who think they can be monks just because they can look at the moving health bars and click on skills. I know how to run a monk, and recognize a BoA when it is about to 'strike' (pardon the pun). Any Mo/W or Mo/A can counter it. A soon as you seen the hex appear on you and the distinctive Shadowstep sound, you use your defensive skills. Personally, in small groups like TA/RA, i always keep prot spirit on myself, as I usually am the target anyway. Prot spirit = no spike. Once you do see the hex, you use return / dark escape if you are Mo/A (love this the most, leaves them crippled and confused), and if you are Mo/W, use balanced stance (no crits = no energy bonus or spiking benefits) and put on holy veil if you have not already pre-casted it. If they put ED on you, you can take it off right away. If you get interrupted, no biggie, just use guardian / SoR / RoF to greatly reduce their spike, on top of the already reduced damage from Prot spirit. A good monk should be able to recognize a threat. In total, an approaching BoA sin should only tie up 2s at most of the monk's time, after which, I am sure no one would have been killed in that time frame. Oh, and no, again, if they move from the FS and SH, they also lose the perpetual burning. And if the monk is too stupid to begin removing hexes, no big deal, you can only burn so many people, depending on whether your team uses Fire weapons or not. But this is nothing new from any other build that uses MoR. In the first place, you can't get MoR on all of them unless they all bunch up (which generally isn't the case, as monks hang back while melee rush forward). --Lord Carnage 23:06, 1 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Hmm, you could have saved yourself a lot of time by simply stating: Use Prot Spirit to prevent spikes, and guardian and RoF to protect yourself. They are in the Protection Prayers line... then use all anti-melee counters to protect yourself. Don't forget to heal your team -_-...dude I know about monks. There will be no R-a-B because this is technically, on someones archive, and in my Buildbox, just meant for other people to look at and perhaps even enjoy using. It isn't meant to be the meta-game build of the century...hell if probably won't even be seen by more then 30 ppl. I am tired of argueing, and don't want any hard feeling's on the wiki. No one here is a noob, and lets just leave it at that. The only ones on this entire wiki who are complete freaks (jk lol this is not a personal attack on either of you guys) are skuld and Defiant. And they just play WAY to much. <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Black">talk *<font color="Black">contribs ) 23:53, 1 April 2007 (CDT)

Fire Storm FTL.Cheese Slaya 23:18, 1 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I ain't going to listen to no Cheese slaya :P lol. <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Black">talk *<font color="Black">contribs ) 23:42, 1 April 2007 (CDT)

Okay, sorry about all the extensive ranting. I didn't mean any personal attacks or anything. We'll just keep our separate opinions on ele builds and leave at that, no hard feelings. ttyl sometime, somewhere on the wiki. --Lord Carnage 00:29, 2 April 2007 (CDT)

I'm glad we coo lol. <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Black">talk *<font color="Black">contribs ) 01:00, 2 April 2007 (CDT)

Just a quick thought, somewhat related to the debate above. You could switch the Dervish skills for Earth Magic skills. Grasping Earth + Armor of Earth for example. Then you have a cheap AOE snare to assist with SH, and still have some defense. If you have an AOE Water snare somewhere else in your team this would be less of a concern of course, but I think an AOE snare of some kind would be very useful, not just knockdowns. -- BrianG 12:47, 3 April 2007 (CDT)