User talk:Dr ishmael/Archive 2

Bit Harsh!
Dont you think? Edit and move sysop? O__o 93.96.58.79 16:13, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I just corrected it. -_- &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:16, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * RC sez I edited before you reprotected.. But RC can be wrong.. 93.96.58.79 16:17, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I've noticed that - the other day I saw people preemptively reverting vandalism. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:19, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Somewhat funny, ya. By the way, youre name is Dr ishmael, and your sig says Ishmaerl., so technically its brekaing gw:sign. I think.. ;P 93.96.58.79 16:21, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think so: "A substituted signature should resemble to some degree the username it represents. Signatures that obscure an account name to the casual reader may be seen as disruptive." I think a single capitalization difference would still "resemble to some degree".
 * In other news, the vandal is now spamming that YouTube link on all Nightfall missions. How do we deal with this?  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:28, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh heck. We warned him to not put it up, so it could be considered vandalism. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 16:30, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Banning is fine with me, but he's using a proxy - I've seen three IPs so far. We could keep banning his new IPs, but I didn't know if there was a better way to deal with that.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:32, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


 * If he uses a small range of IPs, a range-ban would work? No idea how it works tho >< --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 16:34, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Range-ban would be 123.45.*.* or something like that, I think - it would work against someone who simple keeps reconnecting to their ISP to change their IP. Using a proxy, you can change the entire IP, though, so range-ban wouldn't stop them.  In any case, he seems to have stopped for now.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I highly dislike proxies, to say the least... we'll see if he strikes again, I suppose. And now for Nova to stop logging on and off on MSN. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 16:44, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Consumables and their effects
should have seperate articles IMO. One is about the actual item, and the other about the effect that it gives you. thoughts?-- (Talk) (Contr.) 19:56, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * GuildWiki_talk:Community_Portal, GuildWiki_talk:Community_Portal, Talk:Birthday Cupcake (effect). Multiple users have said that they prefer having the effect on the same page as the item, and no one has given any real opposition to this until now.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 20:02, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok nevermind then. Sorry, I haven't been on here a lot recently, so I wasn't aware that this has already been brought up. I'll revert the one that I changed.--[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 20:10, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That's fine, I understand. Actually, you gave me a chance to reconsider this.  I agree that the logical arrangement is separate articles, but practically it makes sense to combine them.  So, to satisfy both sides, I'll leave the effect articles separate, but include them into the item articles.  This also helps where multiple items give the same effect, like the standard/Everlasting tonics or Sugar Rush.  I can't see anyone objecting to this arrangement, except to say that the item page looks cluttered now, but I'll let someone else take care of the design aspect.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 20:29, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * On a related note, other than Consumables there are still many other minor effects and similar things which do not yet have a page...but they are hard to find because many don't have a redlink either. You know, obscure stuff like Rabbit valley. I always wonder if it is better to make redirect pages for minor things like "A whisper on the wind" (Vael in Sacnoth Valley) or just delete them because they are no consequence and leave a note on the page itself explaining. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 04:59, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I am far from knowledgeable about obscure stuff in the game; there's stuff already on GWiki that I'm just stumbling upon now. About the minor effects, though... A couple weeks ago I used this guide in order to build a spreadsheet of all 2851 skills/effects that are currently "active" in the game (there are ~150 others with descriptions in gw.dat, but they apparently don't have skill IDs assigned).  This is how I was able to get most of the icons I've been uploading recently and to confirm the descriptions I've been changing.  Many of these are invisible to the player or aren't even used, in some cases.  Still, I was wondering whether it would still be useful to post them here somewhere - maybe in my userspace to start - just to make the info available.  GWW, because of their Gamelink pages, already has some of them - exhibits A, B, C.  Would this be useful, do you think?  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 05:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Huh...I remember when those things were first found, no one thought they ought to be mentioned but I guess times have changed. My opinion is that anything which a player may conceivably see without the aid of a "cheating device" or such, ought to be documented. Exhibit A is an example of a passive effect which everyone knows. Exhibit B is something which may be useful in explaining why such-and-such effect happens. Exhibit C is not relevant to anything. In the case of "invisible skills" which are actually used but players won't ever see it, I think those could be mentioned in describing some effect, but they may not deserve a full wiki page. Posting it all to userspace would be entertainment, sure...hm. Yeah, I guess if a player might see it, then it ought to be added in somewhere as a real article. Playing with gw.dat sounds fun, maybe I will look into it some day. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

protting
Protection is the last resort when dealing with a vandal. It should really only be used on pages which have a great impact (Main page), impact performance issues (Skillbox), could confuse users (Delete/Ban), or on a page which has a long history of repeated serious vandalism (Prince Rurik). The thing to consider before protection is this: "If I am going to remove the protection in a few days, then it doesn't need to be protected in the first place." Now obviously if it was something like the page was being moved ten times or he spammed a hundred links, that would be much more serious and for some reason prot was necessary because banning proved ineffective (proxies etc) then sure, prot. Otherwise, save the big guns for last.

Very few sysops ever use the prot feature in their careers, so even an experienced active user could hardly expect to know such things - this isn't a reprimand in any way, just a friendly admin reminder. As long as it stops the vandals, that the No. 1 priority of course. At the same time though, protting every page that gets hit with a mass vandalizer is counter-productive. (T/C) 04:52, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Heh, well, it was the first time I'd ever been involved in something like that, and when I saw the vandal start switching IPs, I just figured that protecting the page was more efficient than continually banning his new IPs. But then he started hitting a few other pages, and... meh, at least I've learned something from the experience.  I was not aware that protection was considered such a "big gun" - since it's relatively simple for admins to add/remove it, I thought it would be used more often to stop things like 1RV issues.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 05:27, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, you can check the log of past protections and consider how much smaller it is compared to the ban and deletion logs. That gives some idea :D No worries though, there's a first time for everything - every admin has to deal with vandals eventually. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

you haven't commented
on User:Entropy/bureaucrat. I was expecting a little bit more attention from the general public, so now I'd like at least all the sysops to chime in. After all, those are the people it most directly affects. If you're indifferent then I apologize for spam, and if you're busy I'm sorry for giving more work...nevertheless I desire your comments. (T/C) 05:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll comment on this in the morning, it needs a better response than my tired mind can give right now. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 05:44, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Wow?
What a teamwork ;) But, RC says we both deleted the same page? Lolwut? --- -- (s)talkpage 17:32, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Oic now I recheck RC. pesearing and presearing. /Blind --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 17:33, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * And you EC'ed me on putting disambigs on BOTH of the existing pages. This is starting to get annoying. XD  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 17:35, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, nvm, I got one of them. :P &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 17:36, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Ye, that was the teamwork I was talking about tbh :P But, I had to search for Restless Spirit (thrice...) and for the template... Did you just chime in later, or are you suddenly slow? O_o --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 17:39, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, I only saw the "pesearing" one and immediately went to delete it and add the disambigs, I didn't know there was a second page with a discussion until you'd already nuked it. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 17:43, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Hai
Heard you were going somthing with Cheat Engine- How do I change the values? I want to get hundred blades, in look if not in actual usage. Also, can you get armors using CE? Err.. No reason whatsoever, I dont want it to look like I have FoW for myself in pre.. >_>, but Smurf's guide doesnt work for me, and since you're our Second-In-Command Coder, I figured I'd ask you. ^^ &mdash; Warw/Wick 15:25, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I just followed the instructions here, it's pretty well-explained. It might be possible to do a similar thing with inventory items, if they have a similar ID code (I'd actually thought of that possibility just last night), but I have no clue if it would actually "fall through" to your character model.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:31, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I know about that one, I meant I tried using the memory link but the instructions didnt work.. ;| &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 15:40, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * They worked fine for me. What part isn't working for you?  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:45, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Getting the skills onto your skill bar? :p &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 15:45, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Aha. That's not explained in that guide, no.  Hacking them into the S&A panel works because you can manually close/open the window to refresh it, but there's no way to directly refresh the actual skillbar.  What you have to do is have a "real" skill on the skillbar, hack the other 7 slots, refresh S&A, then replace the real skill with another real one.  This will force a refresh of the skillbar.  You can't have a full 8 hacked skills, unfortunately. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:52, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Can you actually have them in an exporable or anything, or make the game default into you being able to use it, or does it actually do nothing except change the looks? &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 16:07, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks only. There is a check in place that removes any "disallowed" skills whenever you zone - the same check that removes extra elites after you use an SoC.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:09, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Can you change them in area? &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 16:11, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You can in the S&A panel, but not on the skillbar. All you can do in an explorable is swap the positions of skills, and that apparently doesn't force a full refresh of the skillbar, so hacked skills don't fall through.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:18, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

gww:Category:Historical_content
That should have quite some of the info you're now putting up, right? Now if that only would be here rather than on the Official Wiki ^^' --- -- (s)talkpage 19:49, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That is my intent - first, to catch us up on historical skills/effects, and second, to add stuff that even they don't have yet. I've got most of the info compiled in a spreadsheet, I just have to get it on the wiki.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 19:56, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I see. Well, have fun, I say ^^' --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 20:01, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Just a small note that typically, GuildWiki does not maintain historical notes unless they are hugely important. For example on Death Pact Signet we continue to remove the note about how it was once the biggest bug in the game ever. However, since the intent of that policy was not to add unprovable stuff/unnecessary stuff/etc, and I think that most pages are in more or less complete form, we may as well add some spice now. Don't forget to observe copyrights too, though I doubt I'd need to warn you :P 00:03, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That's why I'm adding them in userspace first, so that people can look through them and decide which are significant enough (in a historical context or otherwise) to be moved to mainspace. (I'll post about it on the CommPort after I get a good number of them up.)  I think I'm doing fine on copyrights - I gathered all the data on my own, I'm tagging the icons as screenshots, and I'm not copying any of the notes from GWW.  Let me know if there are any other concerns there.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 00:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah that sounds fine. Mostly I was worried about using the GWW database to find info. But as long as you are gathering all the data by yourself, not copying the notes, etc. there should be no problem. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 00:46, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

: )
I find it amusing that even though I promoted you as "House-cleaning admin" and you self-describe that as your main duty, you have displayed a remarkable amount of "mediating ability" and overall wisdom lately when it comes to people issues. I was mistaken in assuming you were just a tech guy...you continue to amaze me daily. (T/C) 01:12, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Wow, thanks. Really, though, I'm still amazing myself with all I've been doing.  I seriously never thought I'd get as involved with the community as I have, but I've discovered that even performing "house-cleaning" tasks around here either requires or leads to interaction with a lot of people.  I think this is another instance, like the AnimeLyrics forum I told you about, where I feel like I'm fitting in really well with most of the community, and when that happens I naturally become more open and feel more confident about giving my opinions on things.  Now I'm at the point where I can't help myself - I'm actually watching RC (when I can) and commenting on things all over the wiki.  I do still dislike putting myself in the middle of disputes, but if I see a situation that's being biased to one side (like today) or otherwise handled unfairly, I feel like I have to give a "voice of reason" to try and resolve it fairly.  Of course I'm always afraid that doing so will make one of the sides dislike me, but I can live with that better than letting an unfair decision be made.
 * Don't worry, I'm still primarily a "tech guy", and I haven't forgotten about the housekeeping tasks. I'll get back to them... someday. >.>  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 04:15, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Stalking
I hope you don't mind me stalking you and every upload for the excluded skills :)-- 02:24, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * * gasp* Oh noez, I has a stalker! =O &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 03:46, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

oh well
At least you got one :P --- -- (s)talkpage 14:43, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I stopped trying after I started getting the "Internal error" messages. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 14:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

:)
'nuff said.-- (Talk) (Contr.) 20:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Heh, I'm pretty sure I'm waaaay too "new" to be considered for that, but thanks anyway. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 00:00, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Entropy disagrees :p --[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 02:22, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I noticed that... it certainly surprised me. ^^; &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 03:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

the concise indentical thing
For the concise-identical thing you did on the PvP (effect) page, could that be done on Template:Skill box for un-altered PvP descriptions? --Shadowcrest 23:39, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Probably all we'd want in Skill box would be something like:  so simply the presence of a PvP description makes it display.  I considered doing that with the concise descriptions on Effect box, instead of using, and now I kinda wish I had.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 23:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Help
My monobook.js doesn't work anymore. I'm asking you because you're almost as tech savvy as Pan ;) (Though you seem full of surprises! :o). Could you help please? Its not my coding, because I havn't made any edits to it since before it stopped working.. :| &mdash; Warw/Wick 23:03, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Uhh... I can't do much based on just "It doesn't work!", so I'll have to ask for more info first. Do you mean that nothing in there works at all, or is it just a couple functions?  Are you still using the Monobook skin?  Have you made any other changes to your account preferences?  Have you made any modifications to your browser (like installing the NoScript extension for Firefox)?  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 01:38, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * /nobrain. Thanks ;p. Works now. Noscript ftl ;p &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 10:01, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Why in the world did you install noscript in the first place o_O??? -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 10:14, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * RT made me do it. Go hit him. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 10:19, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Perl
I haz it, and I noes how to copy your coding. :) &mdash; Warw/Wick 19:28, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Shudder. mendel 10:17, 29 May 2008 (UTC) ;-)

Cleanup after Maybot
I've been working on Cleanup_after_Maybot, and I have a pretty good idea of what needs to be done. Unfortunately, it is impossible to just revert the screwups because in many cases your bot has come and done more changes to the pages, and the things that the MayBot failed to fix (DeletedLink adding) would need to be re-fixed. This means that in a large number of cases (dozens if not hundreds) I need to place the correct DeletedLink templates by hand. It would really help if I could just revert to before your bot and Maybot struck, and then you'd run your bot again to redo what it did before and what MayBot wanted to do but borked on. Then I'd only have to manually edit those pages where other edits have occurred (going to ignore the MayBot's recent user links rewrites). Is that possible? mendel 10:02, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Since they were botted changes, I may be able to write a Perl bot to undo them and fix them properly, unless she actually deleted anything. That would save you a lot of work.  Give me a few example pages and I'll work on it.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:37, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, there is stuff that has been deleted, which makes the edit so cumbersome: you have to copy stuff from the last good page (I use the diff) into where the deleted thingy is, and the different versions of the bot screwed up in different ways. I'm guessing that reverting and then rerunning your bots is less trouble. I can give you a list of pages when I'm done reverting. Look at the MayBot contributions for the namespaces I haven't cleared yet, for the edits on May 8th, for plenty of examples. mendel 17:04, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * It is exactly due to this issue that I'd rather have full human process to fix the issues left behind by Maybot. We have a good idea of how Maybot screwed up, but there might be things we still didn't catch that are edge cases. I believe Warwick already fixed 3 different bugs with Maybot on the 8th, and yet it was still doing things wrong in other ways. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 17:11, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Tell me what I screwed up and I'll fix it myself. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 17:13, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The problem is that even if we magically fixed all of problem 5, we still need to human check every article involved to ensure there isn't an unknown problem 6 )-: -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 17:18, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The only MayBot proper mistake was the forgetting of the { and the } :|. As far as I know. But I know what I entered on the awb when i did that, so i'm 99% thats the only issue. All your base are belong to us. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 17:20, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * May, what do you need to know that is not on Cleanup_after_Maybot ? There's the space between deleted and link, there's failing to delete the closing brackets, there's deleting the first part of links, maybe there's more. And what AWB setting makes it change the HTML charas to UTF-8? mendel 17:26, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * That'd be a "category" of problems, since after I pointed the issue out and you acknowledged it, it was still being done wrong, implying there are multiple problems in that category. Plus Ishmael's bot might not be the only edits added after MayBot's.  So, we need human eyes to catch/fix the issues. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 17:25, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I am confident that I can do the edits in those cases where non-bot edits have been made in the meantime; pages with dead links are often not in general use. But I'd really like to have the doctor rerun his bot so I can revert in the easy cases, which are most numerous. mendel 17:30, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Well you have to realize even if the Doc re-run the bots, we still need to humanly check each article anyways. So the amount of articles we need human power to check remain the same, the only difference is how many needs human reverting vs how many can be fixed by bots.  As long as you guys recognize this, and Ishmael clearly define how his bot is gonna check and fix things so the rest of us can review it before it runs, I'm fine with letting that bot fix the easy cases. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 17:37, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Pan, I am going to check all the articles. But there is world of difference clicking "undo" on 200+ articles or on copying links from the diff into the current page and putting the DeletedLink template in manually. That's where the manpower savings kick in, plus I'm sure to introduce errors myself doing that many conversions manually. Dr Ishmael's bot has already run and placed a lot of DeletedLink templates, without a single error I could spot, that is why I'm asking that he reruns it when I'm done reverting. It's proven, it works. I'm just waiting for him to say that he'll rerun it (afterwards) and I'll start manually reverting; in fact, I'm only waiting because I want to know if there's information I should collect that will make his job easier. mendel 17:59, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry for not commenting on this, but I was busy this morning. I agree with Mendel that the most efficient thing is, for pages that have only been edited by MayBot and Bot ishmael, to revert to the version before MayBot made the error.  I'll have to wait until Special:Wantedpages gets refreshed before running my bot again.  Any pages with additional edits should be dealt with manually.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 18:43, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I foresee that I'll get to work on this in about 10 hours time; I want to work on the skill templates now. I'll give you a heads up when it's done. mendel 22:02, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Er
Where could I learn how to code Perl? :p &mdash; Warw/Wick 17:20, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * NOT on this wiki. :-P mendel
 * I learned from two books, Programming Perl and Perl Cookbook, which were sitting on my research group's bookshelf at grad school. My advisor gave me my own copy of one as a graduation gift, and I later purchased the other (can't remember which was which), and I still keep both of them by my desk as references.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 18:48, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikimail for you?
Administrator_information has a wikimail for you, but it seems you have that turned off in your prefernces? mendel 17:22, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Stupid Wikia user merge... had to re-confirm my email address. >.> Preferences have been fixed.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 18:53, 29 May 2008 (UTC)