GuildWiki talk:Use lower case

importance?
No offense, but is this really soooo important that it must be added to the ? To me, this is just one among many other formating rules that can be covered in Style and formatting. It seems out of place between the other 5 key ideas, which are more of an ethical guideline. --Fisherman's Friend 07:04, 10 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed. --Karlos 07:11, 10 January 2006 (UTC)


 * You've caught my personal bias. Yes, it's that important&mdash;especially since nobody does it!  But you're right, it doesn't fit.  *sigh* &mdash;Tanaric 15:58, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
 * This would rather belong under Style and formatting, IMHO. -SolaPan 09:35, 22 March 2006 (CST)
 * For the sake of Fighting Against The Man (where the man happens to be Tanaric today), I'd have to agree. I'd also have to agree because I agree, but that's less of an exciting reason.  --JoDiamonds 01:47, 23 March 2006 (CST)
 * If you're going to fight the man, make sure there's something to fight first! I moved this to style and formatting (and out of the guiding principles) back when the objection was first raised! &mdash;Tanaric 08:34, 23 March 2006 (CST)

challenging decision
Can somebody point me towards the talk page where this rule has been decided? Because ... I want to challenge that decision! --Fisherman's Friend 08:32, 11 January 2006 (UTC)


 * This is just, at the moment, a tradition we've written down. Unfortunately, these articles are getting swamped in the Chapter 2 crud. Michael's recollection of it is:
 * Tanaric: Hnnrgh! There is improper article capitalisation everywhere! I want to change it all!
 * Nu/Grave/Biro: Sounds fine, knock yourself out.
 * ..and so was born the Case Crusade. ;p --Nunix 14:06, 11 January 2006 (UTC)


 * If you wish to change this tradition, this is the appropriate place to present your argument. &mdash;Tanaric 14:18, 11 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm hugely in favor of lower case for page names as much as possible, and most of the rest of this article. I *know* I've complained about that here before, long ago.  (Or was the UrbanDead?)  Anyway, there's my vote. --JoDiamonds 05:59, 8 March 2006 (CST)


 * Ooh, UrbanWiki. Brings back memories.  69.124.143.230 06:03, 8 March 2006 (CST)


 * I have to agree. At first I was against it, but it just makes sense.  And clears up ambiguity.  Of course, if it's a proper noun, teh whole thing should be capitalized.  Teh!  69.124.143.230 06:03, 8 March 2006 (CST)

Questioning Lower case rule & Vote Results
==> As the vote was closed April 3rd, I've removed the 'Vote' category from this article, and have archived the results to Old votes. --Barek 00:15, 18 April 2006 (CDT)

Discussion
Yaaaay! Let's rediscuss, rewrite and redo this whole wiki some more. There is a difference, a clear difference, between a rule that is inadequate and in need of being changed (like the monster box templates being consolidated into one simple template) and between consistently visiting a rule because we may not like it. Zzzzzz.

Ok, with regards to this debate. There is very little that can be done. Names of Places, Skills and characters need to follow in game spelling. Or are we going to question that rule to? In terms of other articles in the wiki, unless the article title contains the name of an in-game "label" (not noun). Then is hould NOT be capitalized. To answer your example above:


 * Ccategory:Enchantment spells by skill trainer location
 * Category:Pet resurrection spells by quest giver location

The rule states this very clearly. --Karlos 04:26, 16 March 2006 (CST)

Non-nouns
Um, so what do we do with verbs, adjetives, and adverbs then? I don't see it come up in the vote. All lowercase unless game use upper? -PanSola 07:39, 16 March 2006 (CST)


 * Yes. The policy is simple, use proper English capitalization UNLESS the game does not, and the game only breaks the rules in object labels. --Karlos 11:15, 16 March 2006 (CST)


 * I agree with Karlos then. Making Nouns a special case just make things MORE complicated. -PanSola 13:22, 16 March 2006 (CST)

Redirects
Maybe I should not open a can of worms that does not belong here, but given the problems with different article capitalisations, I see our policy of not creating redirects (and even deleting some) for other spelling as very problematic. From the forum and several talk pages here I get it that this is the most common problem of users, so why not have an array of redirects that directly bring you to the correct page if you misscapitalized. At least we should stop deleting those "unnecessary redirects". --Xeeron 01:25, 16 March 2006 (CST)
 * This is what I see is the biggest problem with this idea (from the Main Page):
 * We are currently maintaining 4,874 articles...
 * Even taking into account that say half of those articles have only 1 word in their name, that would still leave almost 2500 redirects which I see as pointless. Especially now that the search function has been re-enabled, more redirects seems like a waste to me.  --Rainith 01:48, 16 March 2006 (CST)


 * Well.... on the one side, do redirects really create such a big problem? But on the other, yeah, search is working so at the very least the article title will pop up at the top... but I don't really see it as much of a problem either way.  If anything though, aren't redirects meant for things like misspellings and miscapitalizations?  I mean, it's always been bad practice to interwiki link to a redirect.  Evan The Cursed (Talk) 14:13, 16 March 2006 (CST)


 * Well if there is any server side problem, ok. But as long as the server can handle it, I dont see a problem with the redirects. We dont need to start a crusade, but I definitly remember capitalization redirects being deleted. --Xeeron 01:32, 17 March 2006 (CST)


 * With the search function re-enabled, I kinda think this is a moot point. Everything I've tried searching on with all lower case (jade armor, jade bow, mursaat token, mursaat garments, horn bow, galen trask, etc...) has taken me straight to the correct page w/o the use of redirects.  Just type it in the search box and hit enter.  --Rainith 06:09, 17 March 2006 (CST)


 * Actually the search function is weird and stays weird. Try "Mursaat token" vs "guild versus guild", the first leads directly to the correct article, the second to search results. --Xeeron 21:00, 17 March 2006 (CST)


 * It's okay with two words but goes picky with three. -- Dashface [[Image:User_Dashface_Sig.png]] 07:26, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

Old discussion on Case

 * GuildWiki talk:Style and formatting/Archive 1

There were multiple sections on it too.

Article title disambiguation case
Most pages that have text in parentheses to disambiguate them (as in (location), (mission), etc.) have the text capitalized. This seems to be contrary to GW:ULC. There's a lot of such pages. --68.142.14.80 07:23, 24 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Mission is an in-game term &mdash; Skuld 07:29, 24 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Where is it used in a sentence in game? I don't recall, but it's been more than a year since I've been in pre-Searing and I didn't pay attention to tutorial stuff in Factions.  --68.142.14.80 08:15, 24 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Ping. --Fyren 02:33, 18 September 2006 (CDT)
 * What comes to immediately to mind is the "Enter Mission" button, but I guess you could say that that isn't a full sentance. --Rainith 16:03, 18 September 2006 (CDT)
 * No, not a sentence. (There's also "Enter Battle," but we're not going to start capitalizing battle because of it.)  --Fyren 18:44, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

Cleanup tag
No comments in the talk page related to the cleanup tag, and no reason given on the edit that added it. Unless someone sees a reason to keep it, I'll go ahead and remove the tag early next week. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:51, 12 January 2007 (CST)

ULC worded contrary to current practice
GW:ULC mandates using "normal English captitalization rules", and that means article titles are to be capitalized in their important words - unless the game doesn't. Unfortunately, the example given in GW:ULC (and, as it seems, current Guildwiki practice) is to not use proper English capitalization in article titles, in flagrant contradiction to what GW:ULC actually states. Sigh. The proper English thing to do (and what is actually covered by the letter of GW:ULC) is to name the article uppercase Split Skill and use the words split skill in lowercase in any article texts, unless of course you want to refer to the article by name (and not to the skill). Example: I believe split skills are documented in the Split Skill article.

This implies that redirects need to be established for any article titles longer than 2 words - it is done automatically for two-word articles, or so I believe. I have reviewed the vote that was taken in April 2006, and unfortunately the vote was to "keep the current rule, because it's abundantly clear". So no luck there.

The alternative is to expand the summary of GW:ULC to document current usage, which is as follows:
 * The only other exception is: Contrary to normal English, words in article titles are never capitalized unless they're capitalized in-game. Example: Ranger skills quick reference

Do we want that? mendel 07:15, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I see what you're saying, but in practice, the title of a wiki "article" is not the same as the title of a magazine or newspaper article. Thus "normal English capitalization rules" for an article wouldn't apply to wiki "articles"; indeed, even Wikipedia uses all-lowercase titles, for example, Sound recording and reproduction.  All other capitalization rules should still be followed, of course, which mostly apply to proper nouns.
 * The rules should probably be rewritten to better reflect actual usage. Here's my proposal:
 * If an article title is an in-game term or name, use the same capitalization as is used in-game.
 * Example: The Fissure of Woe
 * If the article title is a proper noun, use standard English capitalization rules for proper nouns.
 * Example: Gaile Gray
 * Otherwise, only the first word of the article title should be capitalized.
 * Examples: Ranger skills quick reference
 * The "Exceptions to standard English" section should probably be thrown out. The first point there contradicts the "Capitalization of in-game terms" section, and I believe the latter is correct; the second point is covered by the first of my proposed rules above.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:03, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia uses the same brain-dead software that automatically capitalizes first words; a real encyclopedia doesn't capitalize entries at all, see e.g. |Britannica, or uses title caps, see e.g. |Encarta. But it's nice to know we're not alone.
 * Your rules 1 and 2 apply to all text, not just article headings.
 * The rules, as I see them:
 * Use proper English capitalization.
 * Treat in-game terms as proper names, that is capitalize them the way the game does. This applies especially to profession, item and skill names.
 * Example from my dictionary's grammar section: General Post Office, but Let's go to the post office..
 * Example sentence: There were meteor showers hitting all around us; obviously, the other team had Meteor Shower equipped on more than one character. The second MS is the proper name for the skill bar skill, there can only be one Meteor Shower on anyone's skill bar, it is in effect unique; but the meteor shower as an in-game event is not unique, and thus not a proper name in that sentence. (Feel free to prove me wrong on this.)
 * Use a salvage kit to salvage dropped armor; use an Expert Salvage Kit to salvage Tormentor's Armor.
 * Article titles should be capitalized like normal text (i.e. lowercase by default, unless they contain names), but the mediawiki software will automatically capitalize the first word. It is not necessary to capitalize the first word when referring to the article, e.g. Have a look at the [effective ranger guide]. (Only that's another badly chosen example because by the talk there is consensus that professions are to be capitalized as Anet capitalises them (mostly), the ranger guide capitalizes them everywhere, just not in the title. Sigh.)
 * For technical reasons, any article with mixed case and more than 2 words needs a redirect with the title all in lower case so the search engine will always find it, no matter what the capitalisation is.
 * mendel 20:39, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Other than your last bullet point, which has always irritated me, I really am not sure if this is important or not. Does correct capitalization within an article make any meaningful difference if there are no links involved? Or for that matter, does it actually matter if we don't use the most up-to-date and standard English? (By the way, even though we are like an encyclopedia, that is no reason to use standard encyclopedic formatting if we don't like it.) I don't believe so...it can impact the style and readability, sure, but that is not an issue most people care about unless they are blatant errors. The example of always capitalizing professions is an example. (T/C) 23:20, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The ULC, as it is now, says "exception this, exception that", and contradicts itself. I've rephrased what the first 2 paragraphs say without (hopefully) changing the meaning (or adding any), but at the same time stressing that most of these rules are actually standard English applied in specific ways.
 * That you perceive my first few points to say no more than "use standard English" is testament to my success in phrasing them non-controversially, but they do illustrate GW specifics that I wouldn't have known about with just a general knowledge of Standard English, so they're in fact a bit "non-standard". ;-)
 * Since we have Content over presentation anyhow, ULC is probably one of the least important policies we have, but I think it makes sense to collect the oddities that someone who is used to standard english (including title caps) encounters on this wiki in one place (and express them in a non-selfcontradictory fashion ;-). Otherwise people who don't know are just going to want to discuss them (who? me? impossible!).
 * Some final points, in case you still need specific replies to some points you raised: Correct capitalization in text makes no difference (GW:CONTENT), but arguing about it does. Looking like an encyclopedia in many ways forms editor expectations, and GW runs more smoothly when it conforms to them where it can and clearly states where it breaks them (and why) because that helps editors adjust. mendel 23:49, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree that we have gotten somewhat lazy with this policy and made tons of exceptions where it would be more efficient to just rewrite the policy and uncorporate them. I appreciate your help in fixing that...
 * I think the main problem with this policy in general has always been the "What is standard?" question. We have our own mix and match of various general English conventions; sometimes we use the typical, sometimes we ignore certain inconvenient rules (example is capitalizing article headings - even if we had the power to, I would not change the MediaWiki software governing that). It really depends on what works best to present the content in an organized and readable manner.
 * Oh, I wasn't trying to imply that I dismiss you and your arguments as unimportant (AGF/YAV). Rather, I was a bit surprised by how much gravity you (seemed to) give to the issue, since it has never bothered me or other users before. Not to the point of actually commenting here, anyways. While a passionate and factually correct argument is welcome anywhere, it seemed bit out of place on such an unimportant page. That's all.
 * By the way, the Editing guide and Style and formatting are helpful in relation to interpreting this policy. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 00:14, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Wouldn't it have just been easier to just rewrite the policy as "GuildWiki:Use whatever case you feel like" or "GuildWiki:Use whatever capitalization has evolved as a standard for that particular thing"? Entrea   [Talk]  03:41, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Subheadings
Another self-contradictory sentence is "Subheading titles should, in general, have only the first letter capitalized. Any other capitalizations should occur only according to standard English rules." If you follow the Chicago Manual of Style web site, then using title caps in subheadings is standard English. --◄mendel► 23:56, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Most wikis do not use title caps in subheadings. Take a look at GWW and Wikipedia. Cress Arvein [[Image:Cress sig.JPG]] 00:01, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, this does not use capatalization in subheadings. Cress Arvein [[Image:Cress sig.JPG]] 00:07, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Depends on where you look:, , here it is mixed:.
 * We need to decide on a house rule, and this house rule could be: "All headings and subheadings are to use sentence case, that is, capitalize a title or heading as you would a normal sentence." Or it could be "Use title case for subheadings." It's a matter of house rule (or at least that is what wikipedia wants us to think). I would most prefer if someone could look it up in the Chicago Manual of Style itself, if they are near a library that has one (I am not). --◄mendel► 00:21, 7 August 2008 (UTC)


 * (rephrasing my comment from User talk:M.mendel) I support following the style rules of scientific journals, which is what Wikipedia follows, and is what mendel is calling "sentence case": Article titles have every word capitalized, section headers only have the first word and proper nouns capitalized.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 01:05, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Change of mind? Up a couple paragraphs you advocated sentence case for article titles as well. --◄mendel► 01:22, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I obviously had a massive brain fart there, because neither Wikipedia nor the journals I published in use title-case article titles. I support sentence-case for both article titles and section headings on GuildWiki, with the obvious exceptions for in-game terms.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 02:45, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * In-game terms are no exception because we captitalize them in sentences as well. --◄mendel► 11:23, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I Support Title Case for Subheadings

 * 1) --◄mendel► 00:21, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * 2) sign here

I support sentence case for subheadings

 * 1) &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 01:05, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * 2) keep consistent with other wikis Cress Arvein [[Image:Cress sig.JPG]]
 * 3) Out of laziness and the pain of using the Shift key [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:20, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Profession name capitalization
The relevant policy is GW:ULC. ArenaNet doesn't always capitalize hard mode or normal mode. See, for example, here: or here. They do seem to often capitalize "hard" but not "mode", which is inconsistent and absurd. In case of a discrepancy, I think it's better to go with what makes the article more readable, and that means following normal English grammar rules. In particular, capitalizing lots of common nouns is awkward to read. In particular, this was discussed for the section heading, and every single mission page on GuildWiki uses the title "Hard mode", not "Hard Mode". Quizzical 01:47, October 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * Doesn't the game always capitalize profession names? [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 01:49, October 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * It's not my prference, but it seems like Quizzical is correct: we should use Hard mode, which would be consistent with the overall policy.


 * I happen to prefer to see proper nouns and titles always capitalized (as is common practice in many arenas); I find it more readable (it highlights things I want called to my attention, much as a gossip column emboldens the names that are being dropped). However, the GWiki policy has been in place longer than I've been contributing; I can't offer a compelling reason that it should be changed other than my personal preference.


 * (In other circumstances, I might argue that Hard Mode is a proper noun referring to the more difficult version of Guild Wars. I would also argue that professions are proper nouns, at least as ANet treats them. However: see above &mdash; no compelling reason to even discuss it.)


 * I am afraid I have tended to overcapitalize and will make an effort going forward to stop that. I will also start reviewing articles as I edit them to reduce capitalization. I appreciate Quizzical's efforts to steer us (or at least me) straight.  &mdash; Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 02:49, October 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * The game also colors a lot of particular text. That's all right for short blurbs, but it tends to make long wiki articles awkward to read.  If one refers to the Ritualist class, that could be considered a proper noun, as it names a particular class, and hence could be capitalized.  If one says that Quansong Spiritspeak, Ssyn Coiled Grasp, and Flower Spiritgarden are ritualists, the names are capitalized because they are proper nouns.  Saying that they are all "ritualists" is using the word as a common noun, kind of like saying that Tom, Dick, and Harry are all engineers.


 * The game rarely if ever uses class names in this sense, but that doesn't mean that we should use bad grammar and capitalize a word used one way because the game capitalizes it when used a different way. That would be kind of like saying that a particular seemingly random word must always be capitalized on this wiki because the only time it is used in the game, it is the first word in a sentence, and capitalized for that reason.  Or perhaps more directly, it would be like saying that "rush" should be capitalized if we talk of someone being in a rush to finish a timed mission for master's reward, because the game capitalizes the skill Rush.  Quizzical 04:01, October 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * Read my post again, please. I'm not advocating a change in policy; in fact, I endorsed GWiki's and promised to follow it better.


 * I also hope that you can agree that I am entitled to have a personal preference, since grammar (like all parts of language) is not uniform, unchanging, or 100% standardized. If you read style and grammar guides, you'll see that there is broad agreement on some things, rare uniformity, and interesting divergence elsewhere. Capitalization is one of those areas where the proper rules depend on the context. In the context of a game, where there is no particular standard that has existed for dozens of years, the wiki could and should choose one that we see fitting. That has already been done and I repeat that I am not interested in opening up that debate. If you want to debate whether I prefer my preference for reasons that you do not prefer, Monty Python and I will happily join you on my talk page.  &mdash; Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 08:28, October 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * +1, Ernie. A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 10:58, October 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * Quizzical, capitalization is not part of grammar, and whether a noun is used as a subject or an object does not determine whether it is common or proper (what gave you that idea in the first place?). The "Rush" skill should be capitalized because ArenaNet puts all skills in title case.


 * Regarding the topic, GW:ULC states that "If the game capitalizes a word, so does GuildWiki." ArenaNet usually writes "Hard mode", which means the 'H' should be capitalized.  They also capitalize all professions, and again, whether a profession is the subject or object in the sentence is completely irrelevant.


 * Note: I will attempt to move Hard Mode to Hard mode soon if there are no objections. —Shidou 20:17, October 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * Tennessee, I was replying to Entropy's remark above.
 * Shidou, can you really not think of any situations in which one might use words like "rush", "escape", "guilt", "shock", or "return" as normal English words, and not references to skills that take their names from those words? If the game doesn't incidentally use the word apart from in reference to the skill, does that mean that we can't use it on the wiki, either?  If you want to say, "Get a quest, go kill some mobs, and return to the quest giver to turn it in," now we'd have to capitalize "return" because it incidentally happens to be the name of an assassin skill that is completely irrelevant to the quest?  If that was said in the page of a Prophecies quest before the release of Factions, was it proper to leave "return" in lower case until the day Factions was released, at which point the first letter of the word should have been changed to be capitalized?  Of course not!  That the game happens to capitalize a particular word when used in a different sense is irrelevant.
 * The link you give for capitalizing professions has all of the professions capitalized in title case--which means that most words are capitalized. It also lists all of the professions on a line without a verb in the sentence fragment.  If we're going to blindly mimic their capitalization, should we also mimic their approach of not allowing any verbs in any sentence that contains a list of all of the professions?
 * I can understand the argument for capitalizing "hard" in hard mode or "normal" in normal mode. ArenaNet botched their capitalization, and it's rather like transcribing typos in the game.  That makes sense when transcribing quest text or NPC dialogue verbatim--and adding  [sic] to note that there is an error, and we're only reproducing it from the original text.  It makes a lot less sense when typing up paragraphs free form to explain how to do things, but there's at least an argument for it.  But it makes no sense at all when using the word in a different sense.  Does the English language not allow "polish" (as something you might do to shoes) to be in lower case even though "Polish" (relating to Poland) is capitalized as a proper adjective?
 * The reason there is capitalization in the first place is to make things easier to read. All caps is hard to read.  Capitalizing the first letter of every word is hard to read.  No caps is hard to read.  And capitalizing a bunch of words at random makes it harder to read.  Surely making this wiki useful and usable should be more important than mimicking ArenaNet's capitalization errors outside of their context.  Quizzical 21:07, October 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * Could you really not understand why the sentence "Quansong Spiritspeak, Ssyn Coiled Grasp, and Flower Spiritgarden are ritualists" refers to the Ritualist profession and not the plain English word? There are skills whose names contain plain English words, but that doesn't mean that we must capitalize those skills as if they were plain English, because they're not.


 * The link I provided demonstrates clearly that ArenaNet capitalizes professions. Why are you interpreting it as the bible of sentence structure?


 * It seems that you're just really confused about how to use the appropriate capitalization in a given context. ArenaNet didn't "botch[...] their capitalization"; they made the first word of "Normal mode" and "Hard mode" proper because those are special terms in GW, but they didn't establish any capitalization rule for other uses of the words "normal" and "hard".  Thus, it is correct to say, "Enemies are stronger in Hard mode" or "This quest is hard"; but incorrect to say, "Enemies are stronger in hard mode" or "This quest is Hard".


 * I think I may have identified where the confusion lies; GW:ULC states that "If the game capitalizes a word, so does GuildWiki" (emphasis added). Terms and words are different (a term contains one or more words), so we should change "word" to "term" in that statement.  That way, my four examples adhere to the policy word for word. —Shidou 21:40, October 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * The example I was going to bring up was the generic use of Popsicle, but apparently that's capitalized even if you're talking about Otter Pops, on the basis that it's a registered trademark. But surely class names are not a trademark.
 * In the GW:ULC page, the specific example is capitalized because it is a proper noun. You seem to agree that it wasn't meant in the most literal way of capitalizing a word that is incidentally always capitalized because it happens to be the first word in the sentence the only time it is used.  I'd likewise doubt that it was meant to say that we have to mimic ArenaNet's capitalization blunders.
 * A lot of other games don't invariably capitalize class names, either, precisely because it is incorrect to do so. See, for example, World of Warcraft or Vanguard: Saga of Heroes.
 * ArenaNet itself doesn't invariably capitalize profession names, even.
 * Page 42 of the Prophecies manual: "It’s also not uncommon for followers of the Mantle philosophy to be highly trained warriors."
 * Page 18 of the Nightfall manual: "The most powerful of these holy warriors transform themselves into living representations of the true gods"
 * Page 30 of the Nightfall manual: "The Shattered Dynasty Era was a time when holy warriors roamed the countryside,"
 * Page 62 of the Nightfall manual: "Now she is mo zing—a traveling blade, a masterless assassin, selling her services to the highest bidder."
 * (emphasis mine in all cases)
 * Even if you want to be pedantic and claim that's only the manual, that last one also appears in the game:




 * So no, the game doesn't always capitalize profession names. As for hard mode, I'd say that it's self-evident that "Hard mode" is wrong if there isn't some other reason for capitalization such as being at the start of a sentence.  "Hard" is surely not a proper adjective.  If one argues that "hard mode" is a proper noun, kind of like "United States" or "Great Britain", then they would have to capitalize "mode", too.
 * So basically, my assertion is that ArenaNet was careless with capitalization. See, for example, how they capitalize some species but not others, with no rhyme or reason as to why this one is capitalized and that one not.  As such, it is best to use capitalization correctly, rather than to replicate whatever capitalization ArenaNet used by accident, except when quoting from the game verbatim.
 * Finally, I'd like to point out the irony of using a page titled "Use lower case" as justification for using far more capitalization than dictated by normal English rules. Quizzical 02:47, October 22, 2009 (UTC)


 * Alas, the Zenmai example doesn't necessarily support any of our assertions, as arguably, assassin might use its dictionary definition (one who kills peeps for pay) rather than as her GW Profession [sic]. That also applies to manual pages 42, 18, 30, and 62. For example, "the Mantle include highly trained warriors", some of whom are Warriors (e.g. Guards) and others that are Rangers (e.g. Seekers). (Now, if they were described as highly trained elementalists, my argument dies a quick death.) Nevertheless, I have no doubt that ANet is careless about capitalization, as they care little for copy editing generally (just compare brief/long skill descriptions).


 * In any case, does it really matter? As humans, we can choose to follow our own policy to the letter or to make the occasional exception. So, perhaps we can discuss how we would like to apply capitalization to the particular phrase in question: are enemies stronger in Hard mode or in hard mode? (Or even Hard Mode, in the unlikely event folks prefer it.)


 * (Reminder: the use of caps isn't consistent across books, textbooks, bibliographies, newspapers, English grammar classes, and government handbooks. Grammar isn't a fixed set of rules; they vary over time and space. While we shouldn't throw out every rule, we can certainly agree to set our own standards for a modest number of them.)  &mdash; Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 03:57, October 22, 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Quizzical, I doubt that the examples you provided refer to professions per se, particularly the "holy warriors" (per Ernie). Even if they actually did refer to the professions, the descriptions of the professions themselves (e.g. ) are much more indicative of ArenaNet's preference than a hero description that has nothing to do with the profession.

There is a difference between understanding that a common noun at the beginning of a sentence is always capitalized, and understanding that the only blunder ArenaNet made was not making everything completely consistent. In spite of a few instances of lowercase words that might refer to professions, it's pretty clear from the official site and the rest of the manual that the predominant style is to capitalize professions, as well as the adjective in Normal/Hard mode.

It's incorrect to argue that "Hard mode" is wrong just because one word is capitalized and the other isn't; it's entirely possible to have a proper adjective that modifies a common noun (e.g. "Offline mode"). In this case, "Hard" is a proper adjective and "mode" is a common noun.

I don't know about species, but I'm quite sure that all monster names are in title case. The vast majority of species are capitalized anyway (as far as I know), so that shouldn't be much of a problem. I don't really see the irony in the title of GW:ULC because, in a nutshell, it advises us to follow standard English rules and the only exceptions are ArenaNet's preferences. (It's not like it allows us to write, "A Player can purchase Items from Merchants at Mission Locations.")

I originally thought that you wanted to follow the policy because at the beginning of this section you used it to argue that Hard/Normal mode should not be capitalized, but now it seems that you just want to change it by removing the second point of the summary entirely. Well, if the community is down with that, I'll follow, but as long as the point is up there, professions, skills, and monster names should be in title case. —Shidou 04:14, October 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * The fundamental question is, if ArenaNet blunders on their capitalization, do we copy their error, or do the capitalization right? I say we do it right, and you seem to disagree.  You're trying to be pedantic about the wording of the policy in ways that are unlikely to describe the original intent.  I'm pointing out that even by the most literal definition, this wouldn't mean capitalizing all professions.
 * The point is that the policy really doesn't fit here. The clear intent, as well as the example cited, is that proper nouns are capitalized.  The Fissure of Woe is capitalized because it is a proper noun, which is because it names a specific place.  Surely it is better to use some common sense and revert to the question of whether to copy capitalization errors than to try to apply an unduly literal reading of a policy in areas where it wasn't meant to apply.  Or can you cite discussion with broad agreement that if ArenaNet makes errors in their capitalization, that we ought to do likewise, apart from when copying their text verbatim?
 * The exceptions, as listed in the article, are item names, skill names, and character names, which are considered proper nouns. Class names and hard mode aren't listed.
 * Arguing that "hard" is a proper adjective but not part of a proper noun "hard mode" in this context is completely absurd. Even look at the Wikipedia article you cite:  "a proper adjective if its meaning is "pertaining to "x", where "X" is some specific person, place, language, or organized group".  Surely "hard" does not name any of those.
 * Your example of Microsoft capitalizing "offline" is title case. The particular feature they cite is called "Work Offline", and is capitalized because that is how it appears in the menu, where most words are capitalized because they are in title case.  That's fine for computer program menus that only have a word or two on a single line, but it would be terrible to write entire paragraphs that way.  The context here is in the middle of several paragraphs of text, so that title case is not relevant.  Quizzical 00:52, October 26, 2009 (UTC)


 * Um... tl;dr, so maybe I'm totally off the subject here, and maybe this argument has already been made, but Shidou's recent edit was to capitalize "Elementalist", a profession title. I am against that, since we do not capitalize profession titles in real life when we talk about them in general, e.g. "I need to go see the doctor."  We only do that if it is used as a personal title, e.g. "I need to go see Doctor Smith."  So in this case, "a water elementalist" is referring to the profession in general and shouldn't be capped.  [EDIT]  In fact, GW:ULC already has a provision for this: see the last section of the policy, the issue of profession names should follow that example.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 04:00, October 26, 2009 (UTC)


 * Quizzical, regarding the fundamental question, I've explained earlier in this discussion that I believe the condition is false. As for the intent of the policy, I'm not trying to be pedantic about it; I just don't see how its original intent excludes professions from the exceptions that should be capitalized.  The exceptions section includes "Names that ArenaNet always capitalize"; obviously, "The Frog" is the name of a character, "The Fissure of Woe" is the name of a location, and "Afflicted Elementalist" is the name of a monster—but isn't "Elementalist" the name of a profession?


 * You missed an important detail in the description of a proper adjective: "In general," which means of course that not every proper adjective must pertain to a person, place, language, or organized group—or noun, for that matter. The Wikipedia article lacks a rigorous definition, so it's completely absurd to say that "Hard" (in the context of Hard mode) isn't a proper adjective just because it does not meet a general definition (especially one that is found on Wikipedia).  The article was linked only to give you an idea of what a proper adjective is, but if you're looking for a more rigorous definition, then see this.


 * Hence the Microsoft example, regardless of the fact that computer menus are usually in title case, illustrates that proper adjectives are used in a manner that is similar to how "Hard mode" is written. How "terrible" it would be to write paragraphs that way is your opinion, but it's a fact that help pages (like the one I linked), instruction manuals, research papers, etc. adopt the convention that if the name of a feature is capitalized by its author, then it stays capitalized.  I don't see how an information page that refers to the "Hard mode" feature of Guild Wars should be any different.


 * Ishmael, there are several things that we capitalize in Guild Wars but not in real life, and professions are one of them. For example, a player would say, "I found Candy Corn in my Trick-or-Treat Bag," but in reality one would say, "I found candy corn in my trick-or-treat bag."  The last section of ULC states that "[j]ust because a term is in the game does not mean it should be capitalized."  This doesn't apply to professions, because while the professions are terms that appear in the game, they are also capitalized by ArenaNet. —Shidou 17:56, October 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * The Frog is a proper noun, as it is the name of a particular character. The Fissure of Woe is a proper noun, as it is the name of a particular place.  Capitalizing things like skill names and non-unique mob names is something that I'm not particularly a fan of, but it can be justified on the same basis as the Microsoft example:  the capitalization specifies that it is a particular in-game item, and not merely using the words in a generic sense as one might do with many of the words that appear in skill or mob names without referring to the particular skill or mob.  There are many skill or mob names with which a large fraction of the playerbase is unfamiliar, so a way to say "this is really a name of a specific thing in the game" can clarify things.
 * But that's not at all the case with profession names. There are only ten professions in the game, and the words aren't commonly used to refer to anything other than the professions.  Capitalizing them everywhere makes the wiki harder to read, not easier, in about the same sense that capitalizing the first letter of every single word makes text harder to read.
 * The gist of the GW:ULC policy is that we use lower case most of the time (hence the title use lower case), but capitalize proper nouns. The only specific exceptions listed are item names and skill names.  If capitalizing profession names even though that is non-standard English capitalization were intended, surely it would have been mentioned along with item names and skill names.
 * Wouldn't you be shocked to see someone in-game say something to the effect of "I found Candy Corn in my Trick-or-Treat Bag"? I mean, from most players, it would be more like "i found candy corn in my tot".  Even the handful of players who use proper capitalization and punctuation wouldn't capitalize candy corn or trick-or-treat bags when talking in the game.
 * You claim that "hard" in "hard mode" is a proper adjective, even though "hard mode" is not a proper noun. Can you name any other proper adjective that works that way?  That is, an adjective that has a common English meaning and normally is not capitalized, but can be a proper adjective when attached to some other particular word(s), without the other word(s) also being capitalized?  I can't, and surely it seems unlikely that this is the only one.  Your title case example from a Microsoft tech support page doesn't fit this, either, as the feature on the menu is called "Work Offline", not "Work Offline mode".
 * For what it's worth, the walkthrough for this mission (and many others), is essentially my writing. That includes the main walkthrough and the hard mode section.  I realize that things on a wiki like this can be edited, and don't object to fixes that make the article better or at least not worse, but I put a lot of work into making this article useful and don't like seeing the capitalization mutilated.  Quizzical 19:46, October 30, 2009 (UTC)