User talk:Auron of Neon

Grr...
What's the deal with YAV? Can you explain, in your own words, how Warwick's actions/comments have violated YAV? I have the same issue with what s/he/they are doing, but I really don't see any violation of the YAV policy in particular. -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 09:29, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Nor do I understand what the constant occupation with YAV is.. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 09:34, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * General asshattery. You aren't valuable if people ignore what you say. Ignoring what others say because one disagrees with it is even worse than simply ignoring it. Consensus isn't reached by putting people on your ignore list, it's reached by discussion and debate. - Auroñ 10:08, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


 * General asshattery doesn't break YAV. YAV is specifically targeted at one form of asshattery -- that of self-deprecation to appear as a victim/mytre.  If I and Entropy ever get into an argument, and I say "screw you, I've been here way longer than you are" or if she says "screw you, I'm a Bcrat and you are just a lowly sysop", then neither of us are breaking YAV.  We are just inappropriately pulling our rank/experience to trump the other in an argument.  What breaks YAV are things like "I'm just a lowly sysop, you are the Bcrat, so yeah, whatever you say, you know everything".  A user can only break YAV if the user places him/herself at lower value.  Placing others at lower value is just being a jerk, it doesn't break YAV.  At least not the way the spirit of the policy was originally intended for. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 10:18, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Er... I was always under the impression the policy existed mainly to empower newer users, as you said, but also to make sure older users didn't pull some kind of BS trump card like number of edits or time on the wiki. That's just how I always interpreted it. - Auroñ 10:58, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Hm, I would agree that the policy does discourage older/higher-ranked users to pull some trump on newer users, so I can understand if you disagree with my particular examples. Though if we look back to the original point, I would argue what Warwick was doing still doesn't qualify as breaking YAV even under the broader interpretation you used above. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 11:12, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Fair point. Asshattery is still my main concern with that user, and if bad enough, can be a bannable offense. - Auroñ 11:15, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * That's fair. In this discussion I'm just concerned by the accusation of breaking YAV.  You are the second person to accuse Warwick of that in a very short span of time, so I want to sort that particular issue out.  Moving on to the topic of Warwick's behavior, I would advice to take into account that some user's message to Warwick is getting near/to the point of non-productive trolling and flaming, and so it might be more constructive/productive to be a bit softer in responding to Warwick's lashbacks. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 11:26, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to ban soon, but I haven't seen any real improvement in behavior. This last case wasn't the only one to concern me, but it's the only one I can easily find (spent about an hour trying to sort through archives; a pretty impossible task). I'll give it time. If, down the road, I feel a ban is still necessary, I don't want it to come as a huge surprise to anyone. So I left a note. - Auroñ 11:31, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Fyi, Auron, its pretty easy to sort through archives. I only have 37 of them. May seem like a lot, but it takes about 5 mins to sort through them all. As another note, you wouldn't see much behaviour improvment, since you're a) not active here and b), like everyone else, seem bent on trying to find the bad things about me. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 11:33, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Auron may not be active here, but that's mainly because you don't see him out there every day in RC. He has...other ways of staying informed, and (like many users) when he is active, tends to spend that time observing rather than doing. I would also warn against making such statements as your last, since you can see a bit above that "self-deprecation to appear as a victim/[martyr]" is exactly what the confusing YAV is about. Without taking a blaming tone, you don't help the "victim" status by saying such things, at least in that tone. (whether they are true or not is irrelevant) [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 12:15, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Get over yourself, Warwick. I don't know you. I don't hate you, I don't like you, and I wouldn't have anything to do with you if you weren't such a potential danger to the wiki. The most I've ever done with you is a single dungeon in EotN, and I don't even remember much from that. You might want to feel important and all that by declaring it you vs the world, but that simply isn't the case. As Entropy said... "When I agree with someone, it's not because I like them personally. When I disagree with someone, it's not because I hold a grudge against them. I just think they are right or wrong, and that's that." You can try to turn this into a martyr game, but beware; Karlos tried to do that, too, and I don't see him around anymore.
 * False assumptions and misinformation about my personality aside, my like or dislike of you has no bearing on my perception. I am sufficiently in control of my emotions (if there were any to begin with, seeing as I still don't care enough to be driven to anger or joy) to ensure they don't make my decisions for me. If your behavior was improving, I would admit it; if I disliked you, I would still, begrudgingly, admit it.
 * I've been watching (and listening, as Entropy has hinted) all along, hence my popping on to ban vandals and delete mass spam pages. I haven't watched GWiki as religiously as I have GWW, but I haven't been simply gone. No, the reason I haven't noticed your behavior improve is because, quite frankly, it hasn't. Stop trying to blame everything except yourself. - Auroñ 12:37, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Evidently you havn't been paying much attention. I've muched changed since I joined GuildWiki with my brother. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 12:41, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Um...Auron is specifically referring to the time from when you "split" and became "May", to now. It's impossible to make a fair comparison if you bring the whole brother issue up again. And even people who are really active here wouldn't have known you from that far back anyways, except for those like Fire Tock (Spam King?) who knew both persons. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 12:46, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I suppose you make a point there Entropy. Fire only knew my brother, tbh. Shadow knew both of us. And auron, here are some edit statistics

Auron of Neon Total     3,412      100% (Main)    843     24.71% Talk    479     14.04% User    399     11.69% User talk    1,203     35.26% GuildWiki    48     1.41% GuildWiki talk    199     5.83% Image    181     5.3% Image talk    24     0.7% MediaWiki    1     0.03% MediaWiki talk    1     0.03% Template    15     0.44% Template talk    5     0.15% Category    5     0.15% Category talk    9     0.26%

Warwick Total     6,855      100% (Main)    1,043     15.22% Talk    668     9.74% User    1,188     17.33% User talk    2,841     41.44% GuildWiki    307     4.48% GuildWiki talk    215     3.14% Image    308     4.49% Image talk    135     1.97% MediaWiki talk    12     0.18% Template    71     1.04% Template talk    34     0.5% Category    14     0.2% Category talk    19     0.28%


 * No, much as it looks, Im not making an issue of the amounts of edits you have. What I'm saying is that you say I'm focused on Userspace edits. I have more userspace edits than you, sure, but the statistics of mine say that basically I have more Mainspace/talk and such than you. I'm not saying you're not a great contributor, I'm just saying- Think about yourself before you say things like that. Unless, ofc, I misinterpruted you. In which case I apologise. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png|Hello]] Warw/Wick 22:21, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


 * GW:YAV isn't enforcable. No body is going to ban a newbie for self-deprecating. The policy says "you have the same responsibility to respect our traditions and guiding principles, just like everybody else", and even that isn't enforced. It's an etiquette policy, is about being kind with yourself and others, and is probably the policy that best represents the spirit of the GuildWiki community, and that's why we should do the hard work of taking good care of it, despite the fact that it's not enforcable. Anything else about it, I already said it. And about Auron, I somehow had the impression that he was watching while I argued (or attempted to) with May (I might be crazy or paranoid), so I'd like thank him for letting it be. He was wise enough to realize it wasn't the right situation to get in bitchslapping Auron-style. It wouldn't had helped considering May's way of viewing things. So, thanks Auron.[[Image:Ereanorsign.jpg]]reanor 22:51, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Auron of Neon
 * (Main)    843     24.71%
 * Talk    479     14.04%
 * User    399     11.69%
 * User talk    1,203     35.26%
 * Warwick
 * (Main)    1,043     15.22%
 * Talk    668     9.74%
 * User    1,188     17.33%
 * User talk    2,841     41.44%
 * Imo, the proportions often give a better idea of what someone's focus in contribs is, instead of the counts. On a side note, the only time I've ever accused anyone of violating YAV was when eloc accepted an RfA nomination on PvX and then opposed himself XD I think I banned him for three seconds, or something ^_^ But yea, YAV isn't really an enforceable policy like NPA or 1RV. I suppose you could ban people for repeatedly being self-deprecating, but that would just kinda reinforce their low opinion of themselves >.> And if someone's repeatedly belittling others, that would really fall more under NPA or just "being a jerk".  &not; Wizårdbõÿ777  ( talk ) 03:30, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


 * So your edit count tells me what, exactly? That your attitude is anything more than piss poor? If anything, your insistence on diverting blame from yourself just tells me you're every bit as egotistical as when I first saw you.
 * Don't pull an Eloc. He was probably the only other user I've seen that placed even the slightest importance in edit counts (although I'd have to say you aren't as obsessive, unless you are secretly infatuated with having the most linked userpage on the wiki).
 * I will have to express my amusement at you using edit counts in your favor, though, when on your last real (or first real, according to you) RfA, you claimed that you weren't accountable for all those edits. And yet here you are claiming all of them as your own. Pick a story and stick to it tbh, lest people stop assuming good faith and start calling you a liar. - Auroñ 03:56, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Look at the actual statistics. The percents arn't what im talking about. Sure, everyone has a lot of usertalk edits, because there is less and less actual stuff to do on GuildWiki nowdays, since for the most part its done.
 * I myself am rather amused at the fact that you seem to be still being ignorant, or you just seem to not understand what I'm saying. As I said on the RfA, most of my brothers contributions were User talk edits, apart from a few(?) talkpage edits and a few dotted around. My point is that you have the lesser amount of useful edits.
 * Yeah, I'm egotastical, but then again, thats human nature, isn't it? Its one of those reasons why I personally hate humans and being one. Bleh, its a flaw of humanity. Everyone tries to get some self importance.
 * I'm hardly diverting blame from myself. I'm trying to make you stop being hypocritical, unless I misunderstood what you said on my archive. My attitude is, fyi, much different from what it was when I started on the wiki. Yeah, sure not much change has come in the last 2 months~ish, but not much noticable will happen in that sort of time. So bleh. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png|Hello]] Warw/Wick 05:17, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * That's nice. Since you're dipping into terrible logic ("I'm hardly diverting blame from myself" following a section blaming your brother, outside of an entire RfA where you blamed all the bad edits on him and claimed good edits for yourself), I'll just be painfully clear. Stop being a dick or you'll get banned. Nobody appreciates your attitude problem. This isn't GWW; you can't wikilawyer out of it. This is your last warning. - Auroñ 07:16, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Is that a threat, Auron? Because I hardly think that you have any logic behind a reason to ban me. Nobody appreciates your attitude problems, and just face it- you're childish and immature; on an Equal to; or probably Greater Than scale to me. If anything, its you thats being a dick. Yes, your reasoning on my talkpage was alright enough, but you're letting yourself go over here. Face it, if you continue this argument you'll just be making yourself look childish and immature. If you block me, go block yourself as well. We're both continuing this argument. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png|Hello]] Warw/Wick 07:24, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, I'm not even sure why we're so set against each other anymore. I replied to a PM from you where you logged off almost immediately afterwards. And since then, you've been acting pretty oddly towards me, considering that I thought what we both said was a joke. After you put a note on my talkpage as an anon, I thought that somehow I'd annoyed you, but come on, one comment gives you reason to thoughroughly hate me? &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png|Hello]] Warw/Wick 07:26, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi
I don't think I've ever talked on your talk page so; Hi! Lost-Blue 03:32, 13 April 2008 (UTC)