Talk:"Save Yourselves!"

ENDURING HARMONY MUCH, UNLESS THATS ONLY ON PARA SKILLS >.> &mdash;Blastedt 20:18, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * For one... it lasts longer. Two, you don't need attribute points in it. Plus... Hard Mode anyone? --Kale Ironfist 20:33, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * At least now there's a good reason why armor doesn't stack. Spen 20:35, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

O MY GOD............ Solus  20:36, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * CASCADE MUCH >.> &mdash;[[Image:BlastThatT.jpg]]Blastedt 20:50, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

R/W Barrager ftw! --Heelz 20:51, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

This skill is teh bomb. Infurating heat (on a hero) + Barrager = ZOMG Solus   20:52, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

So I'm guessing that now it's feasible for the armour cap? Of course you'll definiently need constant IAS or something to keep this up --Blue.rellik 23:55, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

Armor ignoring damage demand will increase? :/ --ArTy 03:31, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * What, PvE monsters are going to bug devs to increase armor ignoring damage? --[[image:Goteki-45.jpg]] Goteki-45  03:47, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Lol - Snow White Tan [[Image:Snow White Tan's Sig.JPG|30px|Talk]] 09:20, 16 June 2007 (CDT)

Could someone get me a glass of water before I faint? No, it's too late. *Bump* zzZ... zzZ... zOMG... zOMGWTFBBQ... thisist3hub3rl33tzorz... zzZ... Yaki 18:32, 16 June 2007 (CDT) I have one question because my description ingame says: .."all other party members within earshot gain 100 armor" which leaves out the '+' which would make a big difference. Which one is the real description?
 * Yes, you're right. The entire party gains 100 armor, not +100 armor. Now the question is whether or not the party members with already more armor (like a dervish with Avatar of Balthazar who have 110 armor) will now gain less armor :S. And I also think this description means that it has no limits with the armor cap, so even characters who have just started (5 armor minimum) will gain 100 armor as well. Someone should also change the description here, on Guildwiki, cause it is wrong.
 * Firstly, you gain 100, meaning your AL is increased by 100, so 60 becomes 160, 70 becomes 170, etc. Secondly, the larger AL bonus will override the smaller one, so AoB dervs will gain 100 armor instead of 40 from AoB. Thirdly, you can only get the Luxon/Kurzick skills if you are level 20. And fourth, please use Show Preview. Cheers --Gimmethegepgun 03:39, 5 July 2007 (CDT)

Acquisition
Kinda at a loss for what to put...Adding a notes section, though. Spen 20:56, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * It's the Kurzick/Luxon rewards guy. --Kale Ironfist 20:58, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah, but how would you word it? Unlocked for 3,000 faction at Kurzick Bureacrat? Must be rank 1? This is why nobody else has done it, either. Spen 21:13, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Every other skill with an aquisition just has it listed at a skill trainer. You don't need to have that extra except perhaps in the notes or in Allegiance rank. --Kale Ironfist 21:17, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

Survivor's Heaven?
Zomg. --NYC Elite 22:19, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * If you got other people to use it, possibly. It affects all other party members, not the user.  Though having your party have a higher chance of staying alive generally increases your chances of staying alive :P --[[image:Goteki-45.jpg]] Goteki-45  23:04, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Ah, missed that part of the description, my bad. At the very least, you'll have casters (Monks xD) with 160 armor, and I can see this on an A/W's bar along with Critical Agility. --NYC Elite 23:08, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Nah, I'd say Focused Anger Paragons with this. --Kale Ironfist 01:05, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Dragon Slasher=owns you. Readem (talk *contribs ) 02:41, 16 June 2007 (CDT)

spear of fury+GFTE+ToF+save yourselves+nothing to fear+aggressive refrain+focused anger+signet of return. Run 6 SF, 1 paragon, 1 rt/monk. Alternatively run a standard b/p with a couple of r/w with this. Hell, a bonder with life bond may be able to use this. Is this really going to survive intact? Phool 03:41, 16 June 2007 (CDT)

No fair! Why couldn't ANet have implemented the +25 stacking cap a day afterwards? I want to try an Eight-Warrior "Save Everyone!" build for PvE. +700AL for everyone, why not. Now let's gank Shiro with all eight of our Storm of Swords active. -- Jioruji Derako.> 05:27, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * except one of you would be banished.
 * Oh noes, we've only got +600 armor! *team whites out* --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jioruji Derako.> 08:20, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * You forgot the armor cap. Sirocco 08:53, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * And shouts don't stack. You could chain it though. Sirocco 08:54, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * @Sirocco, I believe he was saying that it would be cool if this skill was BEFORE the armor cap. But true, shouts don't stack, so that wouldn't work. Either way, with high adrenaline gain on even one or two people with this skill could make a party very tough to take down. --NYC Elite 10:50, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah forgot about that "shouts don't stack" clause. Still, two Warriors with this will give the entire team the +100 armor... you just need a way to build up the adrenaline fast enough. I can really see this skill put to good use on some Paragons, what with Soldier's Fury and whatnot. As soon as I hit level one of the title, I'm grabbing this for my paragon. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jioruji Derako.> 20:24, 16 June 2007 (CDT)

the icon
anybody realize it looks at lot like Johann? http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Johann_zu_Heltzer J1j2j3 11:32, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * My icon is completely different - maybe because you got yours from the Kurzick title and mine is Luxon?

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Image:%22Save_Yourselves_luxon%21%22.jpg --Dragonaxe 17:12, 16 June 2007 (CDT) You're quite right. All these skills have different icons depending on where you got it. That's the image of a luxon all right, while the one on the page there has the typical kurzick hairdo. Seb2net 17:38, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Blech. That's an awful icon. I vote to keep the Kurzick one. xD DancingZombies [[Image:Aura_of_the_Lich.jpg|24px]] 02:32, 18 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Typi

The Luxon version reminds me of the bad guy in the first Fantastic Four --One Three Three Seven 15:12, 8 July 2007 (CDT)

...
This si cheap as hell. Especially with Vocal was Sogolona dn crap...lol.&mdash; Cheese Slaya  ( Talk ) 22:27, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Just Wonering how you gain adrenaline in a timely manner while holding ashes =) Dwaley 23:40, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * This is an energy skill.&mdash;[[Image:Cheese.jpg|50x19px]] Cheese Slaya  ( Talk ) 23:47, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I see 8 adren cost 0.o - Skakid9090 23:54, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * woops was thinking of the other one lool...the para shout. oopsie.&mdash;[[Image:Cheese.jpg|50x19px]] Cheese Slaya  ( Talk ) 23:57, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * A better question would be, "Cheese you lose." Wait, that's not a question lmao. Readem (talk *contribs ) 00:22, 17 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Technically, you could always just put on something like "For Great Justice!" and charge into a mob, then let them pound the crap outta you until you have enough adrenaline. Then, you shout "Save Yourselves!" as the mob kills you. And come on. Look at the skill's name! That's obviously exactly how it's meant to be used. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jioruji Derako.> 03:25, 17 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Or you can use it the smart way on a para with Aggresive Refrain Spear of Fury and focused anger spam it ever few seconds anyone?Dwaley 03:29, 17 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Stupid is the new Smart. Get with the program! Rt/W untanks are all the rage now. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jioruji Derako.> 03:39, 17 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I like Jioruji's idea better --Blue.rellik 00:55, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

Bonder Usage
Assuming the player could get by using Warrior secondary and therefore sacrificing mantra of signets, could a decent enough amount of points be put into smiting to keep this up indefinitely, or at least with little down time? (86.149.96.101 07:25, 17 June 2007 (CDT))
 * Balthazar's Spirit gives points, not strikes, so it would take a ridiculous amount of hits to you to generate 8 adrenaline, all for +100 armor for OTHER party members. I think what you want is a Paragon/Warrior with Focused Anger and Aggressive Refrain using Anthem of Flame/"Go for the Eyes!" to maintain the latter. --Kale Ironfist 09:47, 17 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Get Mark of Fury or Dark Fury on someone else and then with focused anger, that's 4 adrenaline a hit. That would it easier at low ranks.

Earshot Range?
Hey...the skill description does not specifically state it only affects party members in earshot range. Does that mean you can be on some other part of the radar but just not in earshot range, and still use this to give +100 armor? If so, then here is an idea: Rage of the Ntouka + any skill that increases Adrenaline gain + other skills that give free Adrenaline, such as Signet of Aggression perhaps. You can stay out of battle at a huge distance and still help out with this skill. Add in some other skills that help the party at a distance, like Protective Was Kaolai or Heal Party...and you're all set. (T/C) 18:32, 17 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Could someone test it, please? --[[Image:aozora.png]] Aozora 15:10, 18 June 2007 (CDT)
 * This is the only Shout in the game other than "Retreat!" that effects the entire party, rather than just those within earshot. There's your answer.&mdash;[[Image:Cheese.jpg|50x19px]] Cheese Slaya  ( Talk ) 11:06, 19 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Teh note wasn't there when I asked the question, I think... >.> [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 15:35, 19 June 2007 (CDT)
 * It wasn't, and the note is wrong anyway. I just tested it --Gimmethegepgun 15:41, 19 June 2007 (CDT)

Progression
Added r12 (6 seconds) Xaphan67 07:04, 19 June 2007 (CDT)

This skill is great.
This skill is an awesome skill, you always get +100 for your allies no matter the rank and it can always be recharged quick with adrenaline gain, making the duration not really matter since it won't ever get higher when on a paragon no matter your rank, i can't wait to get this skill on my paragon. - Chrisworld 12:28, 19 June 2007 (CDT)

Build ideas
I hate that it says entire party but in fact is just earshot, but it's a shout so I sorta figured that would be the case. Paragon builds would undoubtedly be smarter, but since I play a warrior mostly right now I thought I'd toss out a build idea for a warrior:


 * Warrior/Paragon -
 * Attributes: 16 tactics, 9 sword...82 attribute points to anything else (superior tactics & sword runes)
 * (use a tactics shield)
 * Skills - 1. Enduring harmony, 2. For great justice, 3. Steady stance, 4. desperation blow, 5. drunken blow, 6. save yourselves, 7 great dwarf armor?, 8??? (signet of return or healing?)

Let's go extreme...suppose you get the full 6 second 'save yourselves'. This build then will get that to 9 seconds, a reasonable cycle time. For great justice's 100% adrenaline buff will last 30 seconds. So you get ~3 fight cycles before you need to trigger for great justice again. So basically you charge toward some buggers, just before engagement, trigger enduring harmony, for great justice, and steady stance. Then hit with desperation blow triggering steady stance's adrenaline/energy gain (If desperation blow is blocked or misses, trigger drunken blow). It will amount to 8 strikes of adrenaline. 1 + 1 for the hit. 3 + 3 for the steady stance. So save yourselves is open to use now. Trigger it...ya got 9 seconds now....tick tick tick. Then hit steady stance and desperation/drunken blow again, enduring harmony, and then save yourselves...and so on. I tried it out a bit and it works ok...but of course I need to boost my luxon title a bunch. For skill slot 8 I put in healing signet or sometimes signet of return. With 82 extra attribute points you could put in some paragon skill or other warrior skill. If you DON'T do that tho, stuff yer extra points into swordsmanship (for +critical hits) and/or strength (for sundering bonus). Zealous mods help (or possibly a furious mod). Obviously a paragon using something like this would work better. At any rate...thought I'd let others chew this to pieces and hopefully come up with something better. Crypt Tick 21:11, 26 September 2007 (CDT)


 * Drop the two sup runes, mate. No point in them. You only have three skills that are affected by attribute rankings; Steady Stance is equally effective at both 12 and 16, and Drunken/Desperation only get an 8-point damage boost between the ranks. Definitely not worth 150 of your max HP. You don't have any swordsmanship skills and have plenty of attribute points to spare, so just go something like 12+1+1 Tactics and 12+1 Swordsmanship. Also, Enduring Harmony only makes Chants and Shouts last 50% longer on target non-Spirit ally. You'd have to maintain it on everyone for SY to last 9 seconds. It's not completely useless in the bar, though, as FGJ does still get the bonus. Great Dwarf Armor is a decent way to keep yourself protected. "I Am Unstoppable!" would be a good choice instead if it weren't for the fact that it would ruin your adrenaline gain from Steady Stance. =( - Czechnmymail 03:01, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Luxon skill image
Ick! The Hobo 00:28, 21 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Yes, it's really bad. It looks like an exceptionally ugly Norman invader from 1066 AD. [[Image:Spirit's Strength.jpg|16px]] <font color="#0AA">Issa Dabir 18:11, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I disagree, this is one of the few where i'd say it has a better icon than its Kurzick counterpart--Darksyde Never Again 23:06, 11 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I agree with the those who said it is nasty. IT is NASTY!---  CabooseOwnsYou
 * Johann (or whoever it is) > The Leper. Sirocco 21:08, 26 September 2007 (CDT)

No more bonding???
This, Focused Anger, Spear of Fury, "Make Your Time", "Nothing to Fear", Aggressive Refrain, "Go For The Eyes" and posibly Infuriating Heat from a teammate to cover 15 of not haveing Focused Anger on yourself. If used properly this would make bonding look patetic.--Glass 22:19, 27 June 2007 (CDT)

Not likely, seeing as how the shout doesnt affect the one using it, and the shouter has to constantly attack, which in turn means they are constantly in range of enemies, I know that would not work at all in doa w/out a bonder. Though I do wonder if the shouter could be made into a tank...--Mike The Psycho 00:23, 28 June 2007 (CDT)

The one using it would be a paragon in the midline. I don't doubt that the AI would leave them alone. And even if they don't, healing the paragon is easier than healing the eles, or monks. Tycn 08:22, 28 June 2007 (CDT)

Lol, I'd wanted to see this header as: No more bondage??? :P &mdash; Shady Guy   14:23, 2 July 2007 (CDT)


 * Because we've never heard that one before... &mdash; Hyperion` // talk 09:18, 15 August 2007 (CDT)

On a sin?
I reckon this skill could be very useful on a fasthitting assassin with furious daggers. I mean, +100 armor all the time for all other party members, thats kinda good. --Arthas 14:22, 2 July 2007 (CDT)

Terrible Skill for a Warrior Primary. Only Last 6 Seconds Max. Unless the Warrior does not need any adrenaline. Experienced 01:29, 5 July 2007 (CDT)

Hmm Mo/W, Using this would be good. Since monks dont require any adrenaline. Experienced 00:16, 7 July 2007 (CDT)


 * Monks generally shouldn't be wanding anyway. Draws aggro.   GD  02:50, 7 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Would a bonder with Balthazar's Spirit on be able to build up adrenaline fast enough though? - 89.242.145.130 02:55, 7 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Possibly... might be worth testing. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] <font color="#237d00">Jioruji Derako.> 03:09, 7 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Bonders generally shouldn't be within earshot of the bondee anyway. Risks drawing aggro.   GD  03:11, 7 July 2007 (CDT)
 * There's another thing that needs testing... "Save Yourselves!" never actually mentions having to be in earshot range. It just says "All party members". --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] <font color="#237d00">Jioruji Derako.> 05:51, 7 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Testing complete. Despite never mentioning earshot range, it is required. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] <font color="#237d00">Jioruji Derako.> 06:09, 7 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I love how everybody keeps trying to combine it with professions other than the most obvious. Innovation isn't always best. Just make a paragon already. Spen 16:42, 24 July 2007 (CDT)
 * If people didn't try all the stupid ideas, we wouldn't have builds like IWAY warriors with pets, or monks with only 55 health... Nothing wrong with a little overthinking. :D --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] <font color="#237d00">Jioruji Derako.> 16:46, 24 July 2007 (CDT)
 * This skill isn't terrible for warrior primaries-With the flailing dragon build's constant adrenaline gain, it can prove quite useful with a high title rank The Guild Titan 10:25, 21 August 2007 (CDT)

Only affects Party Members
After I tested this skill at Balthazar Temple with my pet, I saw that it did not affect her. I don't know if it's the same with all the npcs under the Allies section. Big Bow 19:18, 23 July 2007 (CDT)
 * "For 3...5 seconds, all other party members gain +100 armor." –Ichigo724[[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 19:27, 23 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Reading is hard --Blue.rellik 00:57, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

If used without any other armor bonus...
This line is necessary. if you already had "watch yourselves!", then you only gained 80 extra armor, and the benefit is smaller. if you have any -x damage reduction, then the benefit is higher. Foo 16:33, 15 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I think the benefit should be related only to a baseline character (one under no bonuses). It's counter-intuitive to include other parameters. BigAstro 16:56, 15 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I agree! But my old response was much longer... [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] <font color=#6e8b3d>frvwfr2 (T/C/RFA) 16:59, 15 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Old response? With regards to the note, how about I change it to something like "A +100 armor bonus reduces elemental damage and physical damage by 82.32%"? BigAstro 17:05, 15 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Old response as in edit conflict. [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] <font color=#6e8b3d>frvwfr2 (T/C/RFA)

I was just presenting the reasons why I reverted an edit which removed "If used without any other armor bonus". Foo 17:32, 15 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I understand that and already responded to your reasoning above. Would you object to my proposed rewording? BigAstro 17:45, 15 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I say it should be removed all together. Foo 18:21, 15 August 2007 (CDT)

Is it stackable? Anyone tested what happens if two human party members shout it? I'm assuming only one applies, but can you get +200 armor for some party members this way? Presumably not, but that's not clear from anything I've read in this. Clarification would be good. (I'm a programmer, so I'm always thinking about how to challenge the code)


 * No shouts stack (nor any enchantment, condition, hex...) --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  15:49, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Trivia
"In the Lord of the Rings, before Gandalf is defeated by the Balrog and falls into the pit, he quietly says to the fellowship "Save Yourselves". No. he does not say "Save Yourselves", at least not in the movies, I'm unsure about the book. I think he say "Flee you fools!".--89.12.122.152 10:32, 29 August 2007 (CDT)
 * His direct quote is "Fly you fools!"--<font color="Black">Gigathrash 21:57, 26 September 2007 (CDT)
 * The book says something like Fly, you fools! but it sounds like frolic you fools in the movie lol Airickguitar3917 18:33, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * oo crap someone already answered that o_O how did i not seen thatAirickguitar3917 18:33, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Note
Shouldn't the phrase with "it can be even more useful for Paragons, who benefit less from the armor on themselves (as they are not at the front of the battle)" in it be adjusted? The skill clearly says "other party members"...
 * Thats y its more useful for the paragons, they dont need the extra 100 AL. Whereas a warrior in the frontline does.Luminarus 09:57, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * It's only better on paragons because they can constantly maintain this Blue.rellik 10:00, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Dragon Slash, Brawling Headbutt, Steelfang Slash, "Save Yourselves!" Flail, Enduring Harmony, "For Great Justice!", Enraging Charge.
 * 14 Sword / 13 Strength Start by pressing 6 7 8 then procede to Spam SY w/ Dslash, during the 15 seconds of fgj downtime you can keep SY! w/ the Dragonslash, Headbut, Steelfang combo. So a warrior can keep it up constantly, just not as easy (due to melee range) as on a paragon wich requires no brain at all. 201.92.98.223 03:15, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

(RI 'cause I feel like it) I agree... anyone read that note and think "fantastic, if only I knew wtf that's meant to say..."? -->Suicidal Tendencie 16:28, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Hmm..
They should rlt change the name to "Shave Yourselves!" Imo.. 83.250.68.7 16:50, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
 * ? 71.204.179.26 21:49, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
 * ^ Why wasn't I signed in?!?! Justing6 21:50, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

K/L description discrepancy
Bah, I accidentally hit Enter when trying to type quotes in the edit summary, so I'll have to explain myself here. I checked in-game, and the Kurzick version still has a '+', the Luxon version does not. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 05:25, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

+100 vs 100
The difference in the wording between the luxon and kurzick skills could be read that the luxon gives all party members 100 armor, whilst the kurzick gives them +100 (usually 160ish). Is the difference just in the wording, or is the kurzick one actually better? Luminarus 12:55, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Just wording Viruzzz 13:08, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Armor Stack beyond 25
In the notes section it says the armor doesn't stack beyond 25... I thought this skill added 100 armor... what am I missing here?205.250.76.39 04:18, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * What it means is that if you have the Kurzick and Luxon versions active at the same time, you'll only have +100 armor, not +200. This is due to the armor stacking nerf they did a long time ago, where armor can't stack beyond +25 armor, but an individual skill can boost it higher. Back in the old days you could reach astronomically high armor by, for example, using Kinetic Armor plus Armor of Earth plus Obsidian Flesh. This made you all but unkillable... [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:34, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Is it true that "I_Am_Unstoppable!" can break this cap? --Raj4h 05:37, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * IAU and like one other skill currently are bugged (yes, that's right, ANet will probably nerf them eventually) and ignore the armor cap. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:39, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe someone should add that to the IAU page... --Raj4h 05:42, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Why armor for only your allies is good
Some of you may wonder why your allies get 100 armor from this but you don't. That's because this skill is for agro management. The AI determines agro by your armor - the less armor you have compared to everyone else, the more agro you get. Use this in the middle of a battle and you will see mobs turn away from your allies and onto you, because you now have less armor than anybody else. If you are a warrior or other tank class, this is what you want to happen. --evilsofa 08:54, 17 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Or you take 2 SY sources and have a frigging invincible team (up until you get adren-denied or something :> ) --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  08:56, 17 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Or run into some armor ignoring mobs like the fleshreaver hounds with RoJ.--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]<font color="Green">El_Nazgir 09:12, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Meh or Meh. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 11:21, 17 May 2009 (UTC)