Talk:Horns of the Ox

By allies does it mean their allies or your allies? &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.119.184.80 (talk &bull; contribs) 19:52, 3 June 2006 (CDT).
 * The target enemy's allies is what this skill referrs to. - Greven 21:52, 3 June 2006 (CDT)

Ok thanks. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.119.184.80 (talk &bull; contribs) 01:42, 4 June 2006 (CDT).

What is the attack type icon supposed to refer to? The prerequisite, or the type? If it's the attack type, then I fixed this one, if it's the prerequisite, then Twisting Fangs needs fixing.--Ender A 05:13, 8 July 2006 (CDT)

Bug? Weird encounter with a masterless minion and a Necro
In Fort Aspenwood earlier, I killed a Necromancer after he had summoned a minion. He respawned, and I was still in the area so he came back to fight again. His minion was now grey (masterless), yet Horns of the Ox did not knock the Necromancer down. Either it still considered the masterless minion an ally, or Horns of the Ox will also fail to knock down a target adjacent to any other hostile creature. - Greven 01:48, 20 August 2006 (CDT)
 * I believe it's the latter, although I'm not absolutley positive. I am bobo 21:08, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

Duration/Mechanics?
Knockdown, unless specified, incapacitates the victim for two seconds, right? How does that work with this skill? Will the target get up two seconds after the first hit, or will hitting twice prolong the knockdown until two seconds after the second?
 * They get up two seconds after first being hit. If the first hit knocks them down, the second knockdown is wasted, but it can be helpful when the enemy blocks the first hit.  --Fyren 13:39, 29 June 2007 (CDT)

Spam this skill?
How do you spam this 12-seconds-cooldown-Skill? Even with Moebius it should not be possible unless the target is below 50%... --Jorx 05:28, 16 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Death Blossom. Now they are below 50% and you can spam HoTO. --Kale Ironfist 06:19, 16 July 2007 (CDT)
 * If you can take the foe with a single attack chain (Lead->Offhand->Dual->Offhand) to 50%, why should you want to spam a dual strike? And why should you want to spam HoTO and not DB? --Jorx 09:10, 16 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Because the constant knockdowns would prevent them from doing anything. If you were a monk, you might have a chance surviving if you slipped in a prot spell under many DB's. --Ufelder 09:44, 16 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Is there any sense to rely on the target doing nothing until 50% HP and then starting the knockdowns? You still have to spam DB 1-3 times to get the target under 50% (you cannot spam Horns until then, obviously, unless there is a super-moebius out there... ;)), so why not go on and finish the work with it? Don't get me wrong, HotO seems to be an excellent skill in _some_ special situations (especially in PvP, where the foes will definitely scatter around after they get damage from the first DB - which would be a good moment to apply the horns on the now-alone target), however DB is more universal - especially in PvE, where the AI does not recognize it as damage-over-time. And, even if you rely on the Horns, you still need DB to get the 50% off.. It could take you a bit longer to finish your target off with DB rather then with Horns, but is it worth a skill slot? --Jorx 03:19, 23 July 2007 (CDT)

Broken
This skill is so broken its not even funny!! maybe if its made nearby but Adjacent is close to impossible to meet, I mean even in organized PvP how often are u standing Inside one of ur allies?! in say RA, a Derv with Av of Lyssa and this can ruin my Anti Melee necro even If I manage to hex him/her before he reaches me, not fun!!!(do I have to mention AV of Lyssa is broken as hell as well, I mean it has one of the longest durations and one of the best effects, it cant possibly be 3 times worse as Grenth?!) Majnore 19:30, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Blind Go go!--[[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg]]igathrash Talk^Cont 19:54, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Nerf?
It does like +10 damage now....--Relyk 01:23, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * ouch, sp sins got hit hardThe Madgod 02:38, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm glad, the conditional knockdown was far too easy to get as well as dealing such high damage -Ezekiel 03:03, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Whoa, whoa, whoa... This damage is PATHETIC! This skill is gonna die without a re-evaluation.. --75.176.60.177 03:23, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Compared to other knockdown skills, it isn't that bad.--[[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg]]igathrash Talk^Cont 03:25, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Now its doing hat it is ment to do.....be a KD skill, not a +30 dmg skill AND KD just knockdown.--Holylorgor 03:29, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It's damage was never that great compared to others and the 12 recharge and conditional knockdown made this skill fairly balanced. Many times It's hard to find a vital target not next to a caster or spirit.--Sefre  [[Image:Sefresig.jpg|15px|]] Talk*Cont. 03:31, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * As you said, the damage wasn't great compared to others. The deadly part has always been the knockdown. It interrupts any skill being used and stops any further skill use for a short while leaving the target vulnerable to following hits. 5 cost, knockdown, two hits of 27 damage, two hits of 5-17 (ignoring crits) and leaving the enemy completely open to the next 1-2 attacks. That was overpowered. -Ezekiel 06:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Whoa Anet, you musta been HIGH.....+10 dmg at 14 dag? BTW WE SINS USE DAGS, got it? 7-17 you jerks....Better make a re-evaluation idiots.

lol looks like a wikisin is complaining about the loss of part of his build. heh. It's funny, When they nerf rock, all those that use rock complain, except paper still is better, and scissors is now happy rock is not so over powered. There are other attakcs and builds out there, find a better, more original one and move on! - Kalle Damos

I don't play a wikisin and I'm rather upset about it. Assassins have a very limited number of dagger attacks (duals anyway, they only way you can actually out DPS a Warrior for a short period of time) and there are a limited number of combos that work. So that's great, IF they aren't standing next to someone and IF you don't get blinded, blocked, insidious parasited, empathied, ineptituded,distracting shoted, target foe has shield of regen on.. etc etc you can knock them down and do pitiful amounts of damage. In order to kill anyone now, sins are going to have to carry an entire bar full of offense skills(they'll probably have to stop carrying res sig too) in order to, gee IDK actually kill someone? Like, the point of the entire class? And they will end up with no survivability whatsoever. Sorry to rant, these nerfs have me annoyed. 206.72.49.46 16:47, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I think it's still worth using this skill in a chain. After all, the point is the kd, which prevents skills like RoF and Guardian from being cast. It's only ~40 less damage too. What has really been nerfed is the Moebius kd spam. Rette Alarix 18:42, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm somewhat glad it got nerfed,the damage alone was powerful enough to finish any caster off in ab,and if he didn't finish him off,he would while he was knocked down,the nerfed damage makes this skill balanced,horns of the ox isn't supposed to be a powerful finisher dual attack,its supposed to be an antikiting dual attack,wich is why it has knockdown.

It never was used as a finishing attack, it's probably finishing if the casters' health was less than 1/2 or so....It's sensible any attack can kill a caster w/ less than 1/2 health.

If it was never used as a finishing attack it sure never served its purpose in ab when i was minion master,a chain attack with this as its dual attack would easily destroy me if i didn't have any minions,even with my dark bond on i still could have been killed if they continued to attack.
 * A caster with half health still has 200+ health. I'm fairly certain that the only attack skill in the game that'll kill that in 1 go is Blades of Steel. Also, MM dying to a sin when you have Dark Bond? Lawl. You got minions up, you aren't dying --Gimmethegepgun 04:41, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

No,because it's not like an assassin who is built to destroy minion masters wouldn't have a skill to remove enchantments now would he?Yeah this plus an enchantment removal skill would easily destroy a minion master,its not like the snare from shadow prison,plus the knockdown from hoto,and if they had an enchantment removal skill,wich they usually did,you were dead as a minion master.At least now with nerfed damage you actually have a chance,especialy if your next allies.

LAME
Cress Arvein 01:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Lolwut? They may have reduced the damage of HotO, but that's the only valid point you have. This is near-unconditional, spammable KD that doesn't have a hex/condition req as TO does. People didn't use this for high-damage anyways - it was for utility and disruption. If you wanted damage you took Blossom or Blades of Steel or something. Not LAME. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 01:43, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Definately have to agree with Entropy on this one. Damage is hardly a concern when you have a spammable knockdown.--[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 01:44, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't call this spammable, the recharge is pretty long. You need to drop targets down to 50% first and use Moebius to make it spammable, and even then a single heal can wreck your KD train. 201.150.67.84 20:30, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Bug
I've noticed that for some odd reason, if the foe your attacking blocks the second attack they are not knocked down, as in attacking though a stance, first attack hits, second attack is blocked, no knockdown. Tested multiple times. 68.47.192.6 15:49, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Another bug
When you have a minipet out, if it wanders towards your target, Hoto will fail as if they were next to an ally. Tested it on the Isle of the Nameless, I'll put up screenshots later. --98.213.157.175 01:04, November 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * Interesting. Perhaps minipets are treated as universal allies, like some NPCs. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 02:36, November 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, they would be universal ENEMIES. Refer to the note on the page that says it checks for an enemy of the user, not an ally of the target. Also, I'm nearly positive I've seen minis knocked down by Earthquake or Giant Stomp or something --Gimmethegepgun 02:52, November 15, 2009 (UTC)


 * Minis are treated as allies for many purposes: paragon skills, certain AoE effects, etc; there's no documented evidence on either wiki showing that they act like foes. So, minis shouldn't cause the player's HotO to fail.  &mdash; Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 03:53, November 15, 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, http://i37.tinypic.com/53scno.jpg I used a hex BSS > Hoto > Falling Lotus. This is the one with a Mini Thorn Wolf out, you can't see it very well though. Falling Lotus failed, so Hoto's KD was prevented. http://i36.tinypic.com/monx5.jpg Same dummy, same situation except I didn't have a minipet out. Falling Lotus hit, so Hoto KD worked. --98.213.157.175 21:42, November 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * I know that it's a bit picky, but as you capitalized BSS wouldn't it make more sense to capitalize HOTO as well, as it is also an acronym  Random  Time   21:48, November 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * It's mostly on how I pronounce it. I actually say the letters BSS, but I always think of Horns of the Ox not more of HOTO but, like a name, "Hoe-Toe". --98.213.157.175 21:54, November 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, RT, you're wrong as well :P It's Horns of the Ox, meaning HotO. Duh --Gimmethegepgun 23:24, November 15, 2009 (UTC)