Talk:Balthazar's Pendulum

Location
Found a boss with this in the Bahdok caverns along the side of the waterfall. (Not during the mission in there.) --Fyren 20:06, 28 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Confirmed and added. DeepSearch 00:23, 29 October 2006 (CDT)

Skill description incorrect?
The description for this skill is possibly incorrect (I got it from a forum, not from ingame). First of all it seems gramatically wrong. Furthermore it talks about a target foe as well as a target ally. But the spell can have only one target. Somebody please verify the wording ingame. -- 06:58, 22 September 2006 (CDT)

Since you can't enchant enemies I would assume it effects an ally.

Shock Warriors
au revoir shock warriors. we knew thee well.
 * Not just shock wars, but any war kd skill (Bull's, Irresistable (in case of block)). But then again, Balth's Pend is rather pricy for its elite status. --8765 13:43, 22 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Its an elite smiting skill.. &mdash; Skuld 13:43, 22 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I cant see this being used in PvP ever. Elite smiting just to annoy KD warriors? No way. --Xeeron 04:46, 23 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Yeah rly:. How about Ward against stability lol.  Non-elite that prevents KD on all people in the ward!  Its quite obvious this needs to be stripped of elite status.
 * When I first saw it's elite status I was in awe. Why anyone would use this in PVE as their elite is beyond me.In PvP I could see using it on monks against shock and hammer warriors but it still takes smiting prayers. --Life Infusion 19:32, 28 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Um... This is a stupid elite, just use Shield_of_Judgment instead for PvE, and it is useless for PvP.
 * Agreed. This skill is in dire need of un-nerfing. ><  User:Carmine
 * Idk, Sheild of Judgement has a long recharge time, however this can be kept on your forever(so long it issnt removed). I Think this may become a very useful skill. Just alow a warior to try to kd you then Holy Strike him. ~ Zero rogue x 22:09, 3 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Do none of you get how the skill works? It only prevents ONE knockdown, and then needs to be refreshed. --Curse You 01:41, 5 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Yup. That could be why it sucks pretty bad. Kessel 05:28, 8 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Despite being not too good in general, I could see use as a "GG Pwnt" opportunity... at least it'd be funny. 1/4 second cast would make it cool. 24.19.163.245 20:56, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

Neuton's Law
I was thinking and I began to wonder: What would happen if a player enchanted with Balthazar's Pendulum were to use a knockdown on another player enchanted with Balthazar's Pendulum? Would they nulify eachother and knockdown the target anyways, or would neither get knocked down? --Curse You 18:52, 21 October 2006 (CDT)


 * I think that will depend on whether or not the "reaction" knockdown takes effect as if coming from YOU or simply an effect (like Desperation blow). If the reaction KD is from you, then the attacker's Balthazar's Pendulum will negate it and knock you down (at which point your own Pendulum will have been removed by the first attempt and you'll be KD'ed). If the reaction KD from you does not register as being a KD by YOU then it will just get negated I think. All speculation though, definitely worth scrimmaging to figure it out. --Karlos 20:47, 21 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Based on some wording and some mental simulations, I'd go for this sequence happening:
 * 1) You attempt to knock down a foe using a skill.
 * 2) Your knockdown is cancelled and Balthazar's Pendulum (an enemy monk's skill) attempts to knock you down.
 * 3) Your Balth's Pendulum triggers, preventing the enemy's knockdown, and knocking down the enemy monk who used pendulum.
 * 4) The monk standing in the middle of nowhere suddenly falls over, and gets confused.
 * Presumably if the enemy monk had cast Pendulum on himself too the chain would get to your monk with pendulum.


 * Now that would be a funny thing to happen. However, we won't know for sure for a few more days (3 acording to GuildWars.com) --Curse You 17:05, 23 October 2006 (CDT)
 * what about drunken blow? &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.69.200.105 (contribs) 20:05, 25 October 2006.


 * Why don't you just wait about 1 day, then unlock the skill and test it? --Curse You 20:57, 25 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Just tested it, the result is kind of disappointing, at least if you we're hoping for some fun chain reactions. It doesn't seem to trigger on it's own effect, so if you are knocked down by Pendulum, you still have your's up. Similar with Drunken Blow, Balthazar's Pendulum just doesn't trigger. DeepSearch 12:12, 28 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Heh, would be funny if, when BP prevents a knockdown, you are knocked down then get straight up again (like when you get interrupted) but werent interrupted, then it would like just like one of those ball things |\oooo/| that click back and forth :P --Terrifi Cani 15:02, 7 November 2006 (CST)


 * Now that would probably be the only good use for it, IF the following actually worked (it doesn't). You put on BP, then use Drunken Blow on enemy. Enemy would get dmg and condition, while at the same time BP would knock down the enemy you hit with DB, and you stay standing.  Plus damage, condition, and a KD in one hit.  LOL, too bad it doesn't work that way, that would actually make it worth using.  Queen Schmuck 10:15, 21 December 2006 (CST)


 * What a useless skill this is... I mean, Steady Stance is fairly useless as well, but this is just all around a don't use skill.
 * Nope, Steady Stance triggers on self-inflicted KD from Drunken Blow, and gives you energy and adrenaline. Good for hammer wars.Labmonkey 05:06, 9 December 2006 (CST)

Duration
what decides the length of the knockdown? say if you had this on you and an ele used Gale would that elementalist get knocked down for 3 seconds? Or just 1? Would this effect be changed if you were a warrior with stonefist gauntlets on. If so who dose it effect? Ansi 19:07, 2 December 2006 (CST)

Sucky
Heh, even if you tried using this, you wouldn't have much luck. Most warriors KD in less than the second so you wouldn't even get it off, and you can't preprot, as even with high levels of smiting you can barely maintain it on 2.. this might get some use if it was like 1/4 cast and 2 recharge, but 'til then I think i'll stick with ward of stability ^^ (a mesmer could use this I guess but she'd be better just FCing stability or galeing the attacker &mdash; Skuld 14:19, 4 December 2006 (CST)
 * Very sucky indeed. Perhaps even worse than Life Sheath. Most of the time you'll end up doing nothing with this one, too. They should at least change this to 1/4 sec cast. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 23:39, 21 December 2006 (CST)
 * What's wrong with Life Sheath? 220.101.137.136 19:34, 24 December 2006 (CST)
 * Not spammable, for what it does you'd be better with orison. Plus ZB, LoD, BL, DH etc kick ass &mdash; Skuld 20:03, 24 December 2006 (CST)

mwahaha, found it! --Gimmethegepgun 17:07, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * What the...hey, someone's using my templates! :D It's okay, though, I agree here with its usage. Just for future reference, though, I don't want to get in trouble incase someone uses this and there's a huge argument about it...users coming to my talkpage about my template which I didn't post somewhere, big confusion and quagmire. Don't abuse it, use the template wisely. ;) Entropy 18:47, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * Hmm, with the (possible) skill fixes this got a bit better, but still deserves the tag imho. Entropy 18:56, 20 January 2007 (CST)

You must not forget that the skill is unlinked, though. So the fact that it is a smiting skill doesn't matter. --Silk Weaker 00:02, 21 January 2007 (CST)
 * Please explain how "5...17 seconds" is an unlinked skill? Entropy 00:41, 24 January 2007 (CST)
 * Ooops. Well, it's about as linked as Channeling is linked for a Monk, so it's still okay. --218.102.166.143 20:02, 24 January 2007 (CST)

Entropy 21:18, 29 January 2007 (CST)

Triggering from self induced knockdowns would be interesting but your the one knocking yourself down so you would just end up knocked down again and if it kds your target it would be too powerful so would the self induced knockdowns just be ignored like steady stance if it were changed?


 * Hmm..."If the knockdown is self-induced, Balthazar's Pendulum ends and the nearest foe is knocked down." Nearest Foe would probably create some problems, as it wouldn't necessarily be the same target you used Desperation Blow or such on. But, yeah, I guess that would make it quite powerful and even better for the purpose than Steady Stance. So yeah, the self-induced ones would probably be ignored. Thanks for helping out. Entropy 22:16, 30 January 2007 (CST)

Darnit, passed over. At least the recharge is only 5 now. Entropy 20:55, 1 February 2007 (CST)


 * It still sucks though. Also, DON'T switch it to another attribute if it gets buffed, Smiting doesn't have nearly enough skills that are actually good. Besides, the only non-Smiting Monk skill (that I can think of) that is completely useless without the enemy's actions is Supportive Spirit --Gimmethegepgun 20:10, 4 February 2007 (CST)


 * Fair enough. ;) Entropy 21:13, 4 February 2007 (CST)

My guess is that it treats yourself as the 'foe' KD'ing yourself (I wouldn't be surprised based on ANet's wording of other skills), so you end up preventing the KD from DB, but still getting KD'd from BP. (Then again, I don't have this skill so that could be mere speculation) Game mechanics wise, I can see how it would be possible for this skill to prevent self-KDs from DB/DB, but I don't see how the game's mechanics would allow a self-inflicted knockdown to instead KD a target enemy. (It's an enchantment that targets an ally, so I don't see how an ally-targeting enchantment can target an enemy for a KD.) Maybe if ANet changed it to 'the next time you are knocked down, a random adjacent foe is knocked down instead' or something like that. Zaboomafoo 02:01, 7 February 2007 (CST)

Quite appropriate you cap it from Riseh the Harmless. What a damn crappy skill...and an elite :/ --ArTy 13:25, 19 May 2007 (CDT)

USeful tidbit of information
with the increase of smite bilds I think that my info in notes in history is useful --androidgeoff 16:29, 4 January 2007 (CST)


 * Increase of Smite builds? BAH! There wouldn't be much of an increase in smite builds if they made a hex that increased holy damage target takes by X...X%, let alone with the release of NF which yielded only 2 halfway decent skills, 1 of them an elite --Gimmethegepgun 19:02, 4 January 2007 (CST)

meteor shower
will this trigger if you run into a hostile metwor shower?  :: S oqed Hozi ::  11:16, 8 January 2007 (CST)


 * It should, although it will of course only prevent one of the knockdowns. Same with Gale, Meteor, Earthquake, etc. Unfortunately I can't test this at the moment. Entropy 21:56, 14 January 2007 (CST)
 * I had actually MS'd the boss in a land of heroes for fun, and it only prevents one knockdown, and no damage. &mdash;[[Image:BlastedtSigleft.jpg]]Blastedt[[Image:BlastedtSigright.jpg]]&mdash; 15:42, 17 January 2007 (CST)

Balthazar's Pendulum != Steady Stance
Tested the combo: Balthazar's Pendulum + Drunken/Desperation Blow. Doesn't prevent the knockdown as does steady stance would. Dcpmx 02:34, 22 January 2007 (CST)

Yeah, because it says 'knocked down by a foe', which makes it even worse. Tycn 00:21, 24 January 2007 (CST)

Base Defense
Has anyone tried this on the base defenders in AB? If it works you can use massive hp + divine intervention to perhaps get past the base defenders. Kelvin Greyheart 01:02, 11 March 2007 (CST)


 * Somebody actually did get past once I heard, it was on one of the other skill talk pages (Not a fifty five 17:20, 31 March 2007 (CDT))


 * I got in once by shadowstepping with deaths charge to a guy who was leeching near the teleporter. Made it to the res shrine (barely).  Then I got ganked by 5 people when they resed.  Was fun to read what people were saying about it.. Kelvin Greyheart 19:40, 31 March 2007 (CDT)
 * What`s so hard in going past defensers? I don`t visit AB very often but when it camed as a new PvP style getting there was possible by killing Guardian with long range weapons and mass degen then fastly getting to "res platform" before the defender ressurect itself, the base defenders aren`t working there. Maybe something changed tho... --DragonLord 15:11, 16 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Base Defenders have been made unkillable since the beta. --Macros 15:18, 16 May 2007 (CDT)
 * I tested this skill, with 1300 health, It knocked the guy down, but he got back up before I was out of range. I could see this working with An Warrior/assasin using a shadow step to foe, and a monk applying enchantments.--86.137.46.219 16:52, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd try Earthquake + Earthbind over this to KD the base defense any day. Anyone tried that?  Gives you 3s to make your way past...easy with a shadowstep halfway through--Carmine 16:19, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Hes uber leet --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (s)talkpage 17:00, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

The only good use I could POSSIBLY think of for this skill... The combo This + Bed of Coals in a guarunteed knockdown area...

How many conditions does this check for?
Has anyone checked to see if this works in The Dragon's Lair (mission)? I am thinking it won't, as no creatures cause the timed KDs (environment effect). Can it stop the KD from a wurm popping out of the ground (since the wurm can not be KD)? The way I think this skill works is that it only stops KDs when If that is true (if say giant's hammer attack KD you, but since you can't KD giant, you still get KD), then this skill is even laughibly more useless than I ever thought it was, as even the single KD it stops is more conditional than we thought before. Can anyone else think of any other conditions it might check for? Queen Schmuck 15:20, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
 * caused by a creature (not an environmental effect)
 * creature causing KD is not the enchanted creature (not yourself) (known to be the case)
 * the creature that caused your KD can be knocked down by your charactor

Desperation Blow
What about this + Desperation/Drunken Blow? Would check, but this isn't worth capping. Lol. --frvwfr2 (talk)(contributions) 20:18, 7 May 2007 (CDT)

Who would it knock down instead? My guess is that it only prevents you from being knocked down if an enemy is directly targeting you with a knockdown. But you're right about it not worth a cap, haha. --Heelz 21:06, 7 May 2007 (CDT)


 * It doesn't work. I guess you could do the smart thing and use Steady Stance. M s4 23:32, 7 May 2007 (CDT)


 * I only works when you're being knocked down BY AN ENEMY. I bet Anet were afraid it would become too overpowered if any knockdown would work. >_> Seb2net 08:14, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Obviously. If it included self-knockdowns, people would be abusing this left and right. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 13:28, 19 May 2007 (CDT)

BP vs. SoJ + BP ?
Let's say you cast Balthazar's Pendulum on you, and attack another player who has Shield of Judgment and Balthazar's Pendulum up.(I know you can't have both SoJ and BP on your skill bar, but let's say there's a 3rd wheel too) What will happen ? Theoretically it would go like this: attacking the other player would trigger SoJ, and the knockdown is mirrored back by your Balthazar's Pendulum, and the Balthazar's Pendulum on the other player would mirror your Balthazar's Pendulum's knockdown effect, and eventually you would be knocked down. Sounds complicated, but what do you think ? ... --Aozora 15:22, 7 June 2007 (CDT)
 * sure. don't see that happening anywhere though M s4 15:43, 7 June 2007 (CDT)

I just had to make this:Seb2net 09:08, 10 June 2007 (CDT)


 * And I couldn't help but make this Zulu Inuoe 21:40, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Hehehe, it's funny cause it's true--71.67.243.230 01:55, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

June 15th Buff
... Still useless. Discuss. 69.131.154.242 00:56, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I think ima take this and spam it on a tank Vs. kanaxi lol, waste of elite. if it was reduced to a regular skill, it still would suck pretty hardcore. Very VEry VERy situational.--Idiot 04:03, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * It's not that situational in PvP, where knockdowns are (generally) one of the reasons why you get kills. If it was reduced to a non-elite, people would probably bring it to counter knockdowns and allow kiting. As an elite though, it has to contend with every other Monk elite to bring, and it's just not worth it. --Kale Ironfist 09:49, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I was looking for a skill to handle knockdowns and found this one. But elite?  No way!  I've got better things to do with elite skills.  This skill is useless as an elite the way it works now, it's too much of a niche effect. --Doodle01
 * It's still too conditional. First of all its in smiting, and why bring this when you can bring Shield of Deflection to stop more than just kd melee. 5 more energy is alright with me. 67.162.10.70 10:08, 15 July 2007 (CDT)
 * If you're looking for kd prevention, steady stance throws this in the gutter 218.30.160.180 09:48, 11 August 2007 (CDT)

grapple
what happens if a monk enchants you with this and then u use grapple, its a self KD would it negate the effect or would it still cause a KD because you are the source of it. sorry for any brain frying from that. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.120.114.115 (contribs) 12:26, November 1, 2007.
 * That has already been discussed above. It won't negate it because you inflict it yourself. Please read before you ask questions.--El Nazgir 13:52, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

A use?
I have seen this used by Smiter's Boon monks in Random Arenas. In addition to providing a cheap, spammable spell for the doubled divine favor bonus, it also helps to defend against assassin chains. Since assassins use Horns of the Ox, it will reverse the first knockdown, disrupting their chain and giving the monk a chance to heal themselves or remove the hex, preventing the assassin from continuing their chain when they get up. May be a situational use, but it is a use. Morzan 17:43, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I was running TA a couple days ago, we where really destroying with 2 monks, and two sins. We kept running up against two teams, one was a korean team which we couldn't beat so we just let them kill the sins, and they couldn't kill the monks, and then a different team which eventually switched its monks elite to Pendulum and totally screwed up our combos xD--[[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg]]igathrash  Talk^Cont 18:23, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Does this skill work on the Great Destroyer? since he knockdowns when un interrupt him.. daze + this skill might make him invulnerable 2/3 of the time right? sQynor

Whoah!
I've been thinking it over, and i may have come up with a good use for it to kill base defenders. have a team of 1 ele, 2 monks and 1 rit. the rit will use Ritual Lord and signets to help spirits live, while at the same time maintaining Earthbind. The monks will have Smiter's Boon, Balthazar's Pendulum and Judge's Intervention. The ele will use Bed of Coals, Aftershock, Inferno, Flame Burst, Aura of Restoration, Fire Attunement, and Elemental Attunement, with 16 fire magic and 12 energy storage. the monks will take turns using both the pendulum and judges insight on the ele, trading cast whenever the base defender uses base defense. this will effectivly keep the ele alive while the ele uses the KD to combine with aftershock and bed of coals, while spamming inferno and flame burst along with those 2. this will hopefully kill the base defender before anyone resses in the base, allowing the base to be stormed, or entered and stood in by elite teams. wow that was long, any opinions and or ideas? --Uberxman1028 06:47, 25 December 2007 (UTC)Uberxman1028

You went on guild wiki on christmas day?!
 * Loads of people did! RT | Talk  16:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Base Defender can't take direct damage, so the only burning would do damage. Thought ful [[Image:Thoughtful Sig.png|19px]] (Talk) 16:34, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Not only that, but I'm fairly sure that Base Defense triggers damage before the knockdown... making the strategy null and void. [[Image:Tinarto-gold-Monk-icon-small.png]] Isk8 16:49, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, okay, after reading this over and a doing some experiments, a few words. 1)yes, I realized recently that base defender takes no damage at all when I tried searing flames and (on a different character for those of you who think an sf ele with spirit rift is a bad idea, as i do) used spirit rift and found the base defender takes no damage and doesn't condition. 2) because of the skill setup, it doesn't matter if damage comes first, or if KD comes first, both judges insight and balthazars pendulum will activate because the KD and damage aren't Dependant on each other. 3)yes, i was on christmas day for a little while to ab. and lastly 4) yes, it does seem like i am ranting, even to me. [[Image:Summon Mursaat.jpg|24px]] --Uberxman1028 05:42, 3 January 2008 (UTC)Uberxman1028

Ok then...
Any thoughts on why they nerfed such a totally useless skill?Entrea  [Talk]  21:50, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Because 2 people used it in a GvG and Izzy can't tolerate smiting in GvG. --Macros 21:51, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol -- [[Image:Isk8.png]]  I~sk8   (T/C) 21:52, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It's ridiculous pwning in RA. All the warriors have hammers in RA. &mdash;<font color=#ff44aa>♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 21:52, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It was nerfed because it's effective against Wammos? Well, in that case every skill in the game is going down.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]]<font color="#4682b4">Entrea  <font color="#4682b4">[Talk]  21:54, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It was nerfed due to its synergy on a Smite Boon monk in combination with a traditional healer in small-scale arenas. Some of the more practiced monks were able to maintain for each and every knockdown. I once played mesmer with a hammer warrior, and he still had the right people enchanted to make me Psychic Instability backfire on me every damn time. &mdash; Powersurge360 Violencia  22:46, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

My suggestion
'For 5...9 seconds, whenever target ally would be knocked down by a foe, that foe is knocked down instead and takes 15...67 holy damage.' Scourge healing for knockdowns, with the added benefit of knocking them down. THAT would possibly be worth an elite slot. 84.65.23.245 09:32, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * That's practically SoJ minus the multiple KDs and plus the KD prevent (with lower recharge and duration and cast cost and cast time, but those are just details). I doubt it'll look like that, cause it'd be a near duplicate in a way. --Kitsune

Instead, what about an elite reversal of fortune that knocksdown as well. That may be a bit too good, and make smiting viable in normal circumstances. Arcdash 20:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep, it's automatically too good if it makes an attribute line viable in normal circumstances /sarcasm --Gimmethegepgun 22:11, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * A-Net believes smiting would be too powerful for some reason, so to them, it would be too good. Forget my idea, it'll probably never happen.  Arcdash 23:55, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Icon
Look at that: Sur Dasen 10:55, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Buff?
So smiters boon is nerfed... mayhap this deserves one? Roland Cyerni 00:25, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * In addition to preventing more Knockdowns, it should also prevent Touch skills like so:


 * } --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](17,Jan.'09)
 * That would be incredibly powerful. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 19:50, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * } --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](17,Jan.'09)
 * That would be incredibly powerful. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 19:50, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * } --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](17,Jan.'09)
 * That would be incredibly powerful. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 19:50, 17 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Seeing as this is elite it should either do what 2 skills do by itself, or be a better/cheaper/faster version of a normal skill.Closest thing that comes to this is aura of stability,which puts this to shame.


 * For 3...7 seconds each time target ally would be knockdown by a foe,the foe is knockdown instead and if the ally would take damage,the foe causing that damage takes that damage instead (maximum 5...61). 5,1/4,10  Durga Dido 20:14, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Durg's gotcha there Felix, Aura of Stabil puts this "elite" to shame.... unless you're suggesting somehow that the current (and previously nerfed) version(s) is already powerful as-is....?? --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]
 * Well you have to realize that it IS doing two things. It's preventing a knockdown AND causing one. And non-attack knockdowns come at quite a premium. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 20:32, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
 * mez/e can cast Meteor in under 1 second and shower in 2 for 15 E ...and that's without even using an Elite.  And don't even get me started on how common PbAoE KD's are in PvE... --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]
 * Yeah, but Durga's idea would be insanely overpowered. 7 seconds of cheap, fast recharging knockdown-immunity, k. But complete DAMAGE immunity AND damage? it'd be the only elite skill on any monk skillbar. Would be like SoJ and MoP in one +much cheaper, faster recharging and reflects knockdowns too. Now, keeping current functionality, but mix in reversal of damage and this skill would be usable.--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]<font color="Green">El_Nazgir 21:44, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * w3rd... I wasn't condoning his overhaul, just the point about Stability :p --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](18,Jan.'09)
 * The damage reflection would only happen on skills which would cause knockdown not for the whole duration :P.The one reason i don't like ILR's proposal is because first i don't think we need more anti touch skills just because Palm strike is popular now, and besides palm strike, the only other skill i could think of that would get hampered by it would be shock, and i thought that buffing another skill to counter other overpowered/strong skills instead of balancing the OP skill was called powercreep.Second reason i don't like the proposal is because well... i don't think that even with a anti touch addition the skill would see any use. Durga Dido 23:57, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * So I must be the only one who ever gets tired of all the touch spam like:, , , , - ,  + Dark Aura, , , , , [[Image:Monster_skill.jpg|25px]]Chomp, , , [[Image:Monster_skill.jpg|25px]]Trample ... mah bad LoL --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]
 * Alright i understand that there are many more touch skills, and i know your partly joking, But how many of those skills would you see in serious play in GvG and/or HA?Also yeah i think your the only one that gets tired of them, i love plague touch myself, it is fun seeing two W/N passing the conditions back to eachother in a loop. :P Durga Dido 01:38, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

(resetting) No, in that case, I'd prefer 2 necro's playing pong with Plague Signet, and then one of them suddenly changing target to give some poor sin or warrior a whole minute of blind ^.^ Back on subject: Yeah, I don't really think adding something vs touch-skills would be very usefull, exept maybe in AB against those damn R/N, but then again their touches recharge before BP does. No, as I've said before, a slight adaptation of Durga's idea would seem right to me: Wouldn't make it too much used, but would be nice against those irritating KD's sins always use. They wouldn't be able to get off a single complete combo if timed and watched correctly. Actually, now I think of it, in it's current form, it already is great against them, it's just that there are so much better choices. (BTW, Ilr, hope it's ok I used your template)--<font color="Green">El_Nazgir 06:20, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I like your version, drop the whole knockdown immunity and make it more active,i could see it being used next to RoD, could really see some use if knock downs become more common.I tried using the template, but failed. Durga Dido 06:36, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, reportedly KD's are really common(& too difficult to counter?) against 'Sins now. --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](19,Jan.'09)
 * Adding damage (or maybe a condition?) is the only way I can think of to make this usefull and keep this skill's original funcitonality (and not changing it completely).--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]<font color="Green">El_Nazgir 09:06, 19 January 2009 (UTC)