GuildWiki talk:Armor galleries project

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Quick notes for taking good armor shots
obviously, your milage may very, but i hope this helps. --Honorable Sarah 02:27, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) take everything out with you before you leave. make sure you have the full set of armor, enough dye, and anything else you might need to show the armor off.
 * 2) find a place with clean, natural light and a neutral background. the isle of the nameless has white light and many places that overlook sand and ocean, and pale tan and pale blue backgrounds highlight the foreground.
 * 3) turn off post-processing effects. they add a halo and a glow to the character, obsecuring details in the armor.
 * 4) put all the graphics options as high as they'll go. even if you have to shot through a slide show, it will provide a better image.
 * 5) unequip weapons, sheilds and off-hands, turn off your guild cape, and turn on your helm/mask/hat.
 * 6) don't use /attention. it looks odd, and causes cliping issues. use the natural pose.
 * 7) consider turning off your skill bar, or any other UI elements that are close to the center of your screen.
 * 8) position your character with the background behind them, zoom in until the feet of your character are just above the bottom of the screen (just below the skill bar, if you didn't turn it off), and use the right mouse button to rotate until you get a good image.
 * 9) take body shots by aligning the shoulders or hips with the camera, not the look direction. this gives a flatter, more even view of the armor.
 * 10) take helm and mask shots by aligning the face with the camera, not the horizon. this gives a better view of the details of the mask/hat/etc.
 * 11) use shift-printscreen to disable the user interface and take a shot. this will temporary disable all UI, take the shot, then turn UI back on.
 * 12) use a high quality graphics editing program to crop and size photos. The Gimp is a good one.
 * 13) pick a standard size and aspect ratio for all your images and keep them consistent withing the gallery you are working on. most armor body shots should be around 200x600 pixels, but this varies by profession, character scale, and armor set, so increase the width if you must. most headgear photos should be around 200x200 pixels, again, varying by armor and profession.
 * 14) save your image as a JPG, with low or no compression (for The Gimp, use about 95 for the jpeg compression slider).
 * I just noticed that you could turn shadows off instead of leaving it on high though to avoid the large body shadow generated from having it on high - the setting only seems to affect this and not any shading on your armor. Thus, you could also probably add this to the list as it can be more distracting. Jennalee 10:38, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Do it if you wish, it's a neat touch, but it's more trouble than it's worth for users whom this guide is meant for (a.k. new editors), so leave it out of the guide. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 14:30, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Necromancer Dwarven armor
I have spent 3 hours today working on Necromancer Dwarven armor, Gloomcrest Tunic, Grim Gloves, Deathlace Leggings and Demonhorn Boots pages. I did a lot of reorganization and all of the female pics, as well as reuploaded some male pics with better names. What do you guys think? And does anyone have this armor on Male to replace those horrid male images? RoseOfKali 16:59, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * LOOKS great&mdash;♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 17:01, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Glad you like it! This is the worst armor set to work with, took THIRTY separate screen shots for all the pieces... >_<  And had to come up with its own template for all 5 pages, since the standard armor one can't be used here.  After all that I wouldn't dare to ask anyone to do the other professions, but it does need to be done...  If it's still messed up like a year from now and GW2 isn't out yet, maybe I'll do them. ^_^ RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 17:20, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Immediate attention
I have a proposal to add an icon that will be a red exclamation point with orange lines around it, like a "screaming" exclamation point, in addition to. This would denote the pathetically incomplete galleries, like Elementalist Elite Flameforged armor/Male, which are in desperate need of attention far more than anything else... Anyone care to draw one? RoseOfKali 18:54, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I phail at imaging RT | Talk  18:54, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * So do I... but this is my idea of it being drawn in MS Paint in about 15 seconds... [[Image:OMGNO.jpg|25px]] RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 18:57, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmmm... Kinda looks like a bug... :( RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 19:01, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


 * [[Image:Warning.png]]? --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 19:14, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

All of them are used at 16px. Looks good for now. :) I will go back through all the galleries and update the signage. I will also upload it as Attn.png, shorter to type.  RoseOfKali  19:22, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I have reviewed Warrior, Ranger, Monk, and Necro. Changed quite a few icons, many became the new "desperate attention" one, mostly the ones that just plain hurt to look at.  Will check the other professions later, and try to work on the Maybe's, since all they need is some code. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 21:32, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

ranger asuran
female headgear need to be retaken pretty badly RoseOfKali 20:26, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Updating completion icons
Please try to comment with a description of what you're updating (I think you know who I'm referring to ^_^), the section header (profession) will already be there, please add armor type/gender of your updated icon, and reasoning if you're not 100% sure about your decision. Thanks. RoseOfKali 21:41, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Female Elementalist
I've recently brought all Armor Sets available to a Female Elementalist (bar Obsidian...that can wait...). Anyway I am planning on doing all of them without the /attention and from an 'armor front on' persepctive. Is anyone totally against me updating all of them? Personally I think if all the galleries are the same, it'll be better for comparison and overall aesthetics.

Thoughts? Khazad Guard 15:48, 10 May 2008 (UTC)


 * If you can, go ahead. Just make sure all your screenshots are good. :) Cress Arvein [[Image:Cress sig.JPG]] 15:54, 10 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Would be great, I am planning to do the same for female Necro standard armor (got all the elites already). One issue you will face is the image size.  Female ele hands point outwards (especially with some gloves sticking out even further), which will make the image very wide, or give A LOT of sky overhead if you do 1:3 ratio.  I did Elementalist Elite Iceforged armor/Female with wider images, reducing the sky overhead.  I don't think the 1:3 ratio needs to be enforced here, especially if you keep all image sizes consistent between all the galleries.  The main galleries, like Elementalist armor, have been modified to keep all the image heights the same, so ratio is not as important now as it used to be.  Pick the armor set with the "widest" gloves and do it first (Iceforged is one of them, Luxon and Primeval are the worst, I think), then make all the others the same size.  Good luck. :)  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 04:27, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Just uploaded a sample for the whole image size thing . Elite Kurzick is the widest picture I would have (the gloves are pointing out more than the others). If I did do the 3:1 ratio, then the picture would need to be 250x750 which would look really odd. Would it be alright to do the whole Ele gallery as 250x525 or like 250x550? I just dont want to have three sets as 200x525, four sets at 220x525, etc. Mainyl want them to all be the same size throughout each gallery. The main area affected would be the actual gallery themselves, where we are meant to have them 125px wide. Khazad Guard 12:27, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * That size looks good. Yes, make them ALL the same size, don't vary gallery to gallery.  Also, if you wish, you can make it a teeny bit taller above the head, like another 25px, but the width is good.  Upload just one gallery first and let us see, and if it's all good (I'm sure it will be) you can do the rest the same way.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 18:56, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Awesome, I'll do it when I get home. Also add those extra pixels (so it doesnt squish my ele). Anyway all the dye charts are done in yellow, except the Elite Nightfall sets which have all been done in green to keep them consistennt (Vabbian, Ancient and Primeval dye horrible yellow, so I chose green). Also is their any set size for the earring shots? I was thinking just having them the same width as the picture (to make the table line up etc.) Khazad Guard 02:20, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Head shots will of course be of a different size. Personally, I used a square. Oh, and I used the Dye preview for the head shots, because you can get a closer zoom on the head there, then on your player model (Unless you back up against a wall somewhere...) &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 08:55, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Well here's the mock up User:Khazad Guard/Sandbox. The earring shots were done in Isle of the Nameless at the same time as the armor. Not sure about what Poki said, but my dye preview doesnt offer a closer zoom than regular scroll button. The earrings did have a shot of 250x250 that focused on the whole head, but when they are brought down to 125px you can hardly see them, so I reuploaded them. You can still check the old version, and tell me which one is better. Thoughts? Khazad Guard 09:01, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Heya, those look great! With the earrings, the 125x125 px should be enough considering nothing much else seems to change and it draws your attention to them more rather than the head in general. Jennalee 09:18, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Beautiful. Can't wait to see them all done. :D And you're as much of a perfectionist as I am (if not more). Yay! RoseOfKali 19:18, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Too bad the character is "twisting", but you can't do much about that (since it looks like people don't like /attention anymore : &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 21:06, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay thanks guys. I'll start to edit/upload them all soon (uni assignments...) and upload them in batches (Tyrian, Tyrian Elites, Canthan, Canthan Elites, etc). Khazad Guard 00:02, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, final thing. Remember to use the template (like this) an not the whole syntax like you did in your sandbox. You may already be aware of this, but just making sure. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 00:35, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Did the first batch (Core sets and the Canthan sets)...feel like dying now after having to upload a heap of pictures due to poor naming before...Only problem would be calling Elite Luxon ascended luxon...may have to change that later on, but not now... Next batch will be up in a week or two *faints* Khazad Guard 15:50, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * If you want, I'll re-upload them with the proper names, but then the uploader credit will be for me and not you, I can just put a note there like "Original image by Khazad Guard" or something. I also posted about this on your talk page, on how to get the new image names right.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 15:59, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Told you to use the template T.T &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 18:26, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * He did, it was just made for old galleries so that people wouldn't have to re-upload the images just to rename ascended to elite. But sice he's uploading new ones, makes sense to rename them afterall.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 18:34, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * /sigh I did use the template...The only problem is, as I stated above, I uploaded the Elite Luxon as Ascended Luxon instead. I'll fix that now.

Added the next batch in (Sunspear, Istani, Asuran, Monument and Norn). As for Dwarven I was thinking a front and back of each piece, a Front, Back and Profile of it all together, and a Front, Back and Profile of it dyed. Is that alright? Khazad Guard 14:59, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Check what I did with Necromancer Dwarven armor and the subpages (female, mostly). Yes, there were A LOT of screenshots, but I think that was the best way to do it, if you're willing to put in the effort.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 16:16, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Just finished all of the armor sets I have (still working on obtaining Obsidian). The main issue is Elementalist Dwarven armor/Female, I included back pictures as well. I should have done it similar to the other galleries (Chest & Feet, etc) but at the time I did all the screenshots I wasn't thinking correctly. Several of the dyed versions also aren't facing exactly the same direction, but I guess it's more about seeing dye-able areas than the armor. If you don't liek the Dwarven set up, feel free to change it. Khazad Guard 07:38, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * You forgot to check the individual piece links: Thaumaturgic Robes Yeoryios Gloves Exquisite Leggings Majestic Shoes. Some unfinished images there, and that's where the front/side/back/dyed images actually belong, I think.  The main Ele Dwarven armor page has the fully equipped gray/dyed front/side/back, and the front view of each piece.  Please check how I did Necromancer Dwarven armor and its subpages.  The subpages are what makes these armor pages a pain in the @$$ to complete...  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 18:00, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Female Mesmer
I've uploaded now pics for Norn armor and athough i'm not really pleased with the outcome i think they look a lot better now. Also could do shots of Kurzick 15k and Canthan 15k although they're already dyed. --Rotfl Mao 20:33, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Background is lame, each picture is a different size, mask is missing, dye combination is weird... &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 21:02, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah... It's better than what it was, but it's still far from good, sorry. Please look at some completed galleries marked "Yes," like Necromancer Norn armor/Female, for how it should look, and try to not use dye combinations if they look "funny," use a plain color instead, like green, which used to be the base Mesmer color back in the day and usually looks good on Mesmer armors.  Look at the top of this page for a guide to do an armor gallery and on the best location, or PM me in-game "Rose Of Kali" for help (I am afk a lot, but if I'm there, I'll help).  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 04:09, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * New pictures added, according to the guidelines. The antialiasing went off on one of them, don't think that's much of a problem. Dyed yellow. Please check and change the armor status in the project page if the current shots are satisfactory. --Rotfl Mao 16:25, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Great. The positioning is still a little off due to the whole female body twisting issue which you can read plenty about all over this wiki's talk pages, but other than that it's good.  Will mark as done for now.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 17:47, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Namely, I'm talking about number 9 on the guide at the top of this page: "take body shots by aligning the shoulders or hips with the camera, not the look direction. this gives a flatter, more even view of the armor." Do not align with the face of the character, as they look to the side of their body.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 17:51, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

While we're in the Female Mesmer talk, can anyone upload a profile of the Primeval Mask? The gallery is done, but you can't see that the mask actually has horns sticking out of it, need a profile view. RoseOfKali 19:20, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Necromancer headgear
I just updated all of Nightfall male and female headgear. Turns out that you can wear other people's armor in the dye preview, so I used my female's elite scars to do the male ones, and made a female without hair covering the face and with darker skin for the NF ones. That was enough uploading and cropping and previewing and printscreening for one day, so I'll do all the others some other time. Anyway, if anyone has headgear that's missing for the other sex, well, you can upload a dye preview on a PvP char using your other char's headgear from storage. Just has to match the profession. (no duh...) Same with monk tattoos, if you have one on a "hairy" char, make a bald PvP one and use preview on him/her. Thought I'd share this with you. RoseOfKali 18:41, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Elite Kurzick/Luxon 'Cost'
Arguing over Elite Kurzick/Luxon tagged as 'Expensive' instead of 'Prohibitive'

Cost- Elite Luxon and Kurzick need 70-80 Jade/Amber, at today's price that's around 14k-16k (based at 200g ea, which is rather generous). You need to add this onto the other costs 60-75k base + Amber/Jade + other materials (350 normal craft materials+ 35-50 Rare materials).

Requirements- Requires Leviathan/Vasburg. If you have finished Gyala/Eternal you are three missions from completion of Factions (and Elite Canthan which is classified as 'Prohib'). Also requires more faction of one alliance than another, sure it's not hard to do that, but it's another hurdle to leap.

Thoughts? Khazad Guard 05:02, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


 * /agreed. All in all, this armor is not much more expensive than other Elites, but you do need to jump over the initial 10k Faction to get there, and it is pretty close to the end of the campaign...  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 06:07, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Necro Dwarven armor
Necromancer Dwarven armor and its subpages (Gloomcrest Tunic, Grim Gloves, Deathlace Leggings, and Demonhorn Boots) are almost complete. I've done all I could, even made dye prevews of a male wearing my female's armor, but I cannot do a fully equipped view of the male without crafting the armor, and you can't blame me for not wanting to. If anyone has the male armor and could update the full view male pics, it will be complete. Just bringing this to eveyone's attention, since this monstrocity-of-an-armor-page is only 6 shots away from done. RoseOfKali 20:51, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Mesmer Monument Female
New pictures added, according to the guidelines(kind of....). I missed the "dont use attention" part -.-. Please check and change the armor status in the project page if the current shots are satisfactory.--Rotfl Mao 22:56, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * All said and done, it is DONE. Though, /attention is not desirable, and your character seems to grow and shorten inbetween the images, but that's my best shot. :P  Not bad at all, though.  Nice work.  Will mark as "done" and hope that someone someday decides to redo them w/o /attention and growth hormone variations.  ^_^;  (really, nice work :) I mean it.)  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 05:18, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, i've forgot about the attention thingy and honestly don't know what's wrong with her height ^.^;; On top of that before i started i couldn't turn antialiasing on and had to spend about an hour trying to figure out why. In the end i've changed something about transparent edges antialiasing in the nvidia panel and it worked ^^ --Rotfl Mao 08:34, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * There's nothing wrong with her height, but seems like you zoomed out for the back shot, so she looks smaller than in the other images. :P RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 14:34, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

"Image requested" image
There are many galleries that have been adapted to the new armor gallery template, but are missing images. Because of this, there are these looooooong red links that screw up the alignment of the existing images, and, in general, just look bad. I was thinking that someone (not I, due to my miserable lack of proficiency with creating jpg's in Photoshop), could make a small 125x125 image that simply says "Image requested" or "Screenshot requested" or something along those lines. These can be uploaded into the red links to organize the gallery and point out to potential visitors that a screenshot is requested and maybe get someone to take it. Most people would respond to that better than just a red link, I think. RoseOfKali 16:50, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 'sup --Rotfl Mao 17:49, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Isn't there a way to edit the template that if a red link is "detected" it changes it to something else? &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 18:13, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That would be a pain in the... neck, and way beyond my abilities, that's for sure. Similar code already exists to detect if there is a "dyed earring" image in the headgear templates 0e and 1e, but just looking at that code made me sick...  And that's just for ONE image...  The template would triple in size, or more, if you wanted to implement that code for each image.  So no, I don't think that's a viable idea, at least not with the current capabilities.  I'll see what I can do with the "screenshot requested" image...  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 21:09, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, here's my crappy MSPaint version, until someone makes a better one. Let's see how this ends up looking in Necromancer Luxon armor/Male... RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 21:19, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
 * ... looks rather... not very good, so I'm not gonna spread it past that page until someone makes a better one... At least, you get the idea of what I'm trying to do.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 21:24, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Mesmer Asuran Female
New pictures added, according to the guidelines. One picture looks like she's disfigured or something -.-. Please check and change the armor status in the project page if the current shots are satisfactory --Rotfl Mao 11:46, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks good to me. The image sizes are a bit on the large side (700px tall).  The image preview can only display max 600px in either direction, so try to keep it under that in the future, if you can.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 18:36, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Monk Female Ancient
Please explain why this is not attention worthy: there are NO undyed shots of the armor, which is 7 out of the 10 screenshots in the template. Cress Arvein 03:36, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * There is the full array of armor images, whatever color it is, and you can see pretty well what it looks like. The two dyed blue images show what areas are colorable.  Attention is for "desperate" galleries that hurt to look at.  I gave the Monk Primeval armor/Female as an example.  It has one image...  Ranger Vabbian armor/Male is another painful example.  The fact that the Monk Ancient armor/Female does not have the screenshots necessary for the template does not warrant the Immediate Attention icon.  It's simply a No, as in "it's not done, but it's useable."  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 17:19, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Assymetrical armor, revisited
I've looked into the archives and found a note about assymetrical armor, saying upload the more complex side. What if which side is more complex is debatable? For example, I tried to replace the ranger female Norn armor dyed profile shot with a composite showing both sides but this broke the template, and btoh sides are quite complex in their own right. Is there any possibility of modifying the template to allow for two profiles like it has been modified to allow for a shot of the earrings? Jennalee 08:55, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I just glued 2 images together. It's important to maintain the same aspect ratio, so sometimes you'll need more overhead room. And remember that the 2 profiles don't have to be even. Check my work on Assassin Elite Kurzick armor/Female and Assassin Elite Luxon armor/Female. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 11:03, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I see Xeon already edited Template:Armor art gallery -_- &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 11:07, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I sense a degree of displeasure <_<... Most character models aren't as skinny as female sins though so to keep the aspect ratio, you'd have to have about 100-200 px more even if cropped very close to the character. Jennalee 11:25, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Displeasure? A bit, because it makes me feel like I have to re-do my galleries :/ &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 15:32, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Not really. Just split the current images and stretch the sides to add more sky/sand.  Won't look too bad. [[Image:Assassin Elite Kurzick Armor F gray side.jpg|125px]] >>> [[Image:Assassin Elite Kurzick Armor F gray left.jpg|125px]]
 * Sure the shadow looks a bit... straight. But you don't have to reshoot/redye anything.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 18:26, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't see why you'd have to redo them >.< - it's just an option that's now there if you feel the need to use it <_< Jennalee 03:35, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm a perfectionist in some things, so for me it just HAS to be be tip-top ^^; Anyway, I don't think I have dyes for it anyway, so it'll have to remain as it is. Next time monsters will start dropping Alcohol, Sweets or Party Items I'll get a new set of Dye. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 10:51, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Or you can do what I just did with your old images. @_@ Or is that not good enough? You didn't save your old screenies, did you? I save them all. :P RoseOfKali  20:15, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * My Paint Skillz are not good enough :P And unfortunately I deleted the raw images after uploading, and defragmented my HDD since then, so chances to retrieve them are slim. It'll have to do for now. I'll re-do them some time in the future. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 23:31, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * They look fine, I'd save the dyes and not bother <_< Jennalee 07:11, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Hehe, funny enough, I did do them in Paint. Just crop the half of the image that you want, then resize the canvas to the size you want and center the image on it.  Then select the slim strip on left or right that has just the sky/dirt and stretch it.  Copy/Paste/Save using a better program (Paint fails at jpg compression).  Repeat.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 21:06, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Male Monk Primeval armor
I tried updating the pictures for this set. They're not that great since my monitor's pretty crappy. I couldn't really get a higher resolution, but these are a lot better than the originals. Hopefully these'll do until someone can try to get something better. I couldn't get the 3:1 ratio unfortunately since my Monk's sort of short and wide. I didn't buy the scalp design (who does?) at the time of purchase, but I'll try and update that part once I get some free time to kick Abaddon's butt for the umpteenth time.-- franc likes tacos 20:10, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Pretty friggin good, if you ask me. Sure they're on the small side, but compare to what was there before...  Unfortunately, it's still a "No" because there's no headgear.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 01:22, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
 * IMO as long as you keep all the images the same size for a single gallery, it doesn't really matter what aspect ratio you end up using. Some characters will fit neatly into the 3:1 ratio but a lot won't and it would look sillier with the extra space above the character's head. Jennalee 07:10, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * What she said ^^. Look at female elementalist galleries, they were all (except obsidian) done in a different ratio than 3:1, but they look good.  The ratio restriction was for old galleries, which looked bizarre with different widths, but now the template for profession galleries was changed and width doesn't matter anymore.  Don't worry about it.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 21:11, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

revive this project (again)
Seems like nothing is happening anymore, and the problem is, NOBODY KNOWS ABOUT THIS PROJECT... and those who did seems like stopped caring, for the most part, or ran out of things they are able contribute. There are galleries in here that are marked as bacause they are so severely incomplete that it's not even funny (Monk Primeval armor/Female is a shining example...). I've done all I could up to this point, but I'm just not buying armor anymore (yeah, I'm saving money for minis...). One of the bigger problems right now is the Dwarven armor, which is pathetically "borked" for just about everyone. I fixed the Necro one, except for the 6 full set Male images, which I cannot do, because I have the Female Dwarven set. I also fixed up the Elementalist one, and the female gallery is nicely done there, but male still needs ALL the images (current ones are just... bad, and incomplete). As far as the other professions, it's just scary to look at them. I offer my help with gallery formatting if anyone wants to provide the screenshots of the armor. Use Necromancer Dwarven armor/Female as an example of a complete gallery how it should really be done (30 screens total for a 4-piece set, or 24 for a 3-piece). Elementalist Dwarven armor/Female has one instead of 3 colorable screen shots for each piece, but that's the minimum of what's needed and will suffice if you don't want to do more. Please make sure to look at the page for each piece, not just the main gallery. I am constantly watching this project, so just let me know if you would like to help with Dwarven or any other armor set that is incomplete, I will assist you any way I can. RoseOfKali 19:04, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Does anyone know of any much project for that matter? Since when last were projects *really* actively contributed to? Face it, this is a wiki about a dying game with limited content and which isn't getting any more, with official competition from the other wiki and with the game's developers working on the game's successor. Chances are, if its your pet project, only maybe a few others will work on it occaisionally. Honestly, you really shouldn't expect much more - you'll most likely be disappointed. Jennalee 14:10, 30 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Well I'm still here, and still caring ^^ I'm working slowly on getting Female Assassin shots. (Anyone want to contribute to my armor fund? ^^;; ) Didn't have time lately, but I should re-shot non-Elite armor soon.
 * I'm also offering my help in taking/cropping images and providing tips. Rose, any idea on how we could promote this thing a bit? &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 00:37, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * No clue... Once I'm bored enough, I'll start asking people who have the armor to let me shoot them if I provide the dye replacement...  As for me, I might be able to buy armor again after I get my few thousand ectos for my mini collection...  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 00:42, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * After I finish tagging all armor images with, I will work on the Warrior male galleries (Charr hide, Sunspear, and Shing Jea are not done? wtf). If I can afford any of the elite armors, I will try doing those as well. Cress Arvein [[Image:Cress sig.JPG]] 01:22, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Firstly, aren't the Dwarven armor "sets" more correctly called Deldrimor and thus, should all be renamed as such? Also, shouldn't a standard format be worked out for them, with standardized names for all the images (and cleaning up uneeded/orphaned ones?) and have all the existing ones reuploaded under the correct name? Jennalee 13:40, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, it's NOT called Deldrimor, they all have different names, and the players collectively gave it the name Dwarven, which I think should stay, since that's what everyone uses anyway. Trying to rename everything will be a monstrous effort that's uncalled for.  As far as a "template" goes, I thik what I did with the Necromancer Dwarven armor is as close to "templatized" as it can get.  If you want to make an ACTUAL template specifically for Dwarven, feel free to do so, but I think it'll be of little use at the moment considering the condition of the image galleries right now, half of the image links will be red.  Good job on the male monk, but still need to fill in the individual piece galleries...  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 19:26, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * IMO, it is Dwarven with the exception of one gallery which was named Deldrimor because the first one started as that and everyone copied. However, it's probably more accurate to call the 'sets' Deldrimor since it is the name of the title track given by those particular dwarves for the PvE skills etc with many skill names based on it and dwarf/dwarven is more general and encompasses the stone summit too. As for renaming everything, aren't you going about it anyway since most of the images for those sets are currently under the incorrect names? You may as well give everything the more 'official' name while you're at it (which, besides, sounds nicer). I didn't see this discussion when I started on the male monk ones on a friend's acct and didn't realise there were individual galleries which is why i didn't finish those but I'll try get those done by the end of the week. Jennalee 23:35, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Well the heroes' armor is Deldrimor armor, and other hero armor sets usually match character armors, i.e. Ancient armor and Primeval armor. Also, the official wiki uses GWW:Deldrimor armor.  I agree with Jennalee that they should be renamed, but Rose is right in that it would take a lot of work to do so.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 02:11, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

All things considered, I think making a separate armor template for the dwarven galleries would be the best way to go. I this, we have two options for the main gallery. One is the way I set up the Necromancer Dwarven armor, which is: An alternative to the entire above setup would be making the "Deldrimor" armor gallery just like any other armor gallery, with the same Component view. Now there are again two options for the sub-galleries: not bothering with the individual pieces, and simply redirecting those pages to the main gallery, or making them anyway and simply linking to them from the main gallery. All this must be decided upon, and the template must be made before undertaking this monstrous image renaming project, or we'll have to do it twice. I tried to somewhat standardize the Warrior Dwarven armor gallery and its subpages by matching it to my necro gallery, but it is MUCH MORE work than I originally anticipated (fill in and "standardize" all information, dowload images, re-upload images with the original uploader credit, tag old ones for deletion... UGH...), and I'm not going to bother working on the others until there is a concensus on the template issue. And one last thing, I'm not competent enough to write the new template unless I take about a week to work on it and learn all I need to know about the code capabilities, so it would be great of someone more "edumacated" in wiki template code did it. RoseOfKali 03:52, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) Overview: a set of three full gray images, front/back/side, just like any other armor gallery
 * 2) Component View: a set of 3 or 4 (depending on availability of gloves) or front gray view of each of the separate pieces, with a link to that piece's gallery in the heading
 * 3) Colorable Areas: a set of three full dyed images like in any other gallery
 * A separate section of the template will deal with the sub-galleries, which would contain the standard crafting info box for that piece and male/female galleries of 6 images each, 3 gray and 3 dyed, of front/back/side of the piece. An alternative to this would be making this the component view of the main gallery and redirecting the individual piece's page to that main gallery.
 * So, the decisions to be made are two:
 * 1) A. Keep Component View just like any other armor gallery, B. Make it the set of 4 (or 3) front gray views of the individual pieces with links to the piece galleries, or C. Make it into a component view of each separete piece (I don't really like C, too much on one page, but just throwing it out there)
 * 2) Do or do not make the galleries for the individual pieces (decision is only if A is chosen, for options B and C the individual sub-galleries must be made)

If you want a template, just bug someone good at those things who'd get it done really fast and efficiently <_< - just decide on how you want it now. Thing is, they aren't treated as a true armor 'set' per se since they can't be added to the HoM as one and are individual pieces, so treating them as individual pieces with their subgalleries makes sense in this respect. Also, some of the deldrimor armor sets look more like true armor sets than others so it'd make sense to treat the pieces separately, but they are usually worn together so it makes sense having all of them worn and displayed as one set. However, it's just a lot more work having so many subgalleries when the normal component view for galleries works fine for most things normally. So, it's a choice between doing more work so it makes more sense in the way ANet has made the 'sets' or having them like any other armor gallery which would also do the job but be less correct since they aren't a true set.

Thing is, I believe was already decided to have subgalleries for all the pieces soon after people found they couldn't put them in the HoM as a set, as currently is implemented. Jennalee 07:18, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Also, if all the galleries are going under Deldrimor, you can at least start to rename all the full 'set' shots under standardized names like they are templated for with the other galleries and rename component shots after how those are to be done is decided. It should not break anything if a new template is to be made. Jennalee 07:22, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Urgh, the subgalleries structure though takes a LOT more effort than a normal armor gallery. Jennalee 10:01, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * What is the difference between this armor galleries and other ones? The fact that they can not be put into the HoM? If so, what would be the difference between these and sets that can not be added to the HoM because they are not elite versions. They all use the default armor template. The original judgment of separating each component, seems to be wrong considering the rest of the wiki uses another system. -- Xeon 13:51, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The difference is that these armor pieces do not have any unified name that ties them together. Instead of being "Tyrian Attire", "Tyrian Hose", "Tyrian Gloves", and "Tyrian Footwear", which makes them all part of the Mesmer Tyrian armor set, these have completely individual names, putting them in the same class as the Mask of the Mo Zing or Glacial Gauntlets.  Beyond the naming, though, they don't even have any stylistic elements in common with each other (just look at Necromancer Dwarven armor, none of those pieces match at all).  The only thing tying these pieces together is the fact that they are crafted by the same armorsmith.  The bottom line is that they are not an armor set by any definition.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 14:18, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Isn't anybody else going to comment about this? Can't go about working on improving the organisation without some concensus on how to go about it Jennalee 09:33, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Dr. Ishmael has a good point, I think. If I feel like it sometime soon (or if someone else would be so nice 8-]), I'll try making a template that would follow the layout of the Necromancer Dwarven armor for the main page (I think that's the best way to do it, unless anyone objects), and then make a separate "common armor" template that can be used for the Deldrimor pieces as well as the common pieces which still have no template, in essence it's the same concept for both. Normally, the common armor layout would be all that's needed for the Deldrimor pieces, but so many people wear them together and want to see them together that making one main "Profession Deldrimor armor" page with a full gray and colorable views is justified, imho. Plus, it allows easier integration into the profession armor pages. Time to learn some wiki-code. XD RoseOfKali  17:01, 1 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll accept the "grouped" image since, as you say, that's what people expect. And since they are a category or class of armor, it makes sense to have the "Profession Deldrimor armor" page.  We just don't need to put as much effort into that page as we would true armor sets - show the grouped image and link to the pages for the individual pieces, no need for a crafting costs summary or anything like that.  Unless someone else gets to it first, I can try working on the template (I've never messed with the armor galleries before) after I finish fixing up the disambiguation pages.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 17:34, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Common armor galleries
It would be nice if you would mess with the template this time Ishmael. You could probably make it a modified version of the normal armor template.

For example, I'd say, want to enter in something like this for my current monk one for the main gallery:

This for a subgallery:

For the main gallery, I personally prefer to have the individual components first before both the shots showing the pieces worn together since the emphasis for the 'sets' is on the pieces alone but either way, it doesn't make a very big difference.

Galleries with sections complete enough to base/test on:
 * Necromancer Dwarven armor
 * Monk Dwarven armor

Jennalee 00:31, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Looks good, except I'd rename "Armor art gallery subgallery" (lol?) to "Common armor art gallery" which would also apply to things like Chaos Gloves or Mask of the Mo Zing RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 02:07, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I created by copying  and taking out a lot of stuff.  All it has is front-back-side for gray and front-back-side for dyed, and if you leave out the Color parameter, it will just say "This armor piece cannot be dyed," for pieces like Glacial Gauntlets.  I also made the image names more strict - left out the Type-file parameter - and changed Type to Name.  I converted Gloomcrest Tunic/Female to use this already.
 * Does anything else need to be added for this one? I'll get to work on the Deldrimor overview template in a little bit.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 17:55, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll start on converting the other pages to the common template. Very nicely done!  Would it be possible to add the Category:Armor subpages thing into the armor templates so it doesn't need to be manually added everywhere?  Or would it screw with things?  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 19:04, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * We ran a bot task to add that category to all "/Male" and "/Female" pages already, so I don't see how putting it in the template would help. It would require a bit of complicated coding to make it appear only on the subpages and not on the main armor page, too.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 19:47, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Alright, check out, implemented on Monk Dwarven armor/Female. Takes Chest/Hands/Legs/Feet as arguments, if any are not present they get skipped.  Color is required, otherwise the same as the common armor template.
 * Three things need to happen to get all this completed:
 * Convert all common armors to use.
 * Rename all "Dwarven armor" pages to "Deldrimor armor".
 * Convert all Deldrimor subpages to use.
 * Someone needs to draw up a checklist where we can keep track of this, I have to go out for a while and may not have time until much later tonight. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 20:48, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Uh, I don't think all Deldrimor armor 'sets' have the hands. What argument is used for those or is it just ommitted? I just woke up and need to go out very soon but seeing all those changes in RC Ishmael is kind of mindblowing ._. Jennalee 00:38, 3 August 2008 (UTC)


 * "Takes Chest/Hands/Legs/Feet as arguments, if any are not present they get skipped." (Well, this only needed to be implemented for the gloves, the others are always there.) I've been gone the whole day and then we were trying to fix internet issues, so I'm not quite up to speed with what's going on, my watchlist just went crazy, but I'll help if you tell me what to do. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 02:39, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Checklist done at the bottom of this project. Hope it helps. RoseOfKali 03:47, 3 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Man, going through this and seeing how few actual different, properly done images are in these galleries makes you realise how much depressing fail they are atm x_x Jennalee 06:06, 3 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah... *sigh* RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 06:43, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Deldrimor Armor component images
Should at least one set of the component images, say the dye ones, be done in the dye preview window near fully zoomed in or fully zoomed in since it gives a very high res? It would allow the detailing on the sets to be seen much better. Jennalee 09:18, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. A good resolution high quality image provides plenty of detail when you zoom in on it.  I think that doing the cropped versions would make the gallery look rather... ugly...  It would also be difficult to make the all the same ratio without using lots of blank space everywhere.  There's no reason to give this gallery different treatment from all the others.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 17:12, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * One thing I thought of this morning, though, is what about earrings? Those come with the chest piece, right?  So do any of the Deldrimor chest pieces have earrings?  If so, I can add that into the templates.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 17:54, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * From what I can see, most of them do not have earrings (some are impossible to tell due to the horrid image quality... >_<), but the Mesmer Elegant Long Coat does. Thus, so far only one out of FIFTY pieces using the common template will have earrings...  But, they do exist.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 18:11, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * You only need the same aspect ratio in one row - if you did them zoomed in on the dyed version row and had them all the same size, it wouldn't affect the other rows in that gallery. Even if you see plenty of detail fully zoomed in normally, the dye preview will be about 4x larger. Jennalee 21:57, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * A few things in the dye preview's favor: 1) It's guaranteed neutral lighting. 2) It wouldn't require anyone to waste any dyes just to upload the pictures.  3) It's quite easy to frame exactly what you want with a level (horizontal) perspective.  4) What Jennalee said.  Personally I wouldn't have any problem with dye preview screenshots.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 22:06, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I am still strongly NOT in favor of cropping them around the piece in question. Necromancer Deldrimor armor/Male was done in dye preview by me, because I own the female version of the armor, and was forced to do preview.  I don't mind them how they are, but I would discourage cropping out the pieces on their own, leave the whole head-to-toe view in it.  When I said before that it would be difficult making them a consistent ratio, I was referring to the ratio amongst themselves, not relative to the rest of the gallery, and I still maintain that.  Sure you can fit the shot to be exactly as wide as the preview window, but it'll be different heights and require different amounts of blank space.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 04:21, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * How is it any different from doing the galleries for headgear of which a lot is done in the dye preview window? I don't see you complaining about that. All you do is rotate and crop all the images the same size as the largest will be. Jennalee 09:00, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

A head is always easy to make into a square and is always the smallest part? It is also always cropped around the head because, you know, it's a head image, they're all cropped. Plus, I often take headgear separate from armor, and don't want to make a trip to nameless for one or two shots, and I did all male necro headgear by preiewing my female's assets, so there was no other way. If that's what you really wanna do, have fun, I'm curious to see how it turns out, especially gloves vs. tunic. I just really don't think it'll look good and in my mind it's not justified to zoom every armor piece into sizes that would never be seen outside of a preview window. Now you have two choices. If you keep the gray/overview as it is now and do colorable cropped out in preview, the gallery will be unbalanced, and if you do all of them in cropped preview, you lose perspective to the character's whole body. Like I said before, I don't really have anything about the dye preview itself, what I don't like is 1) the idea of cropping things down to one armor piece in view and 2) why make Deldrimor galleries even more different than they already are and give them "extra-special" treatment? RoseOfKali 18:24, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Atm, you already have a space to show all the components shown together, dyed and images to show them separately, gray and dyed. The showing of the separate components, dyed so small is kind of redundant since you have them shown all together dyed and that already shows dyeable areas. Why not just go better and show them dyed, zoomed in? Is there something inherently wrong with giving them special treatment? The idea is to have something like this just for the dyed single component section. Jennalee 23:39, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm getting confused. Anyway, this seems like a mute discussion, you feel strongly one way and I the other, it's ok, just do how you feel and we'll see what happens.  Heck, if this is what you wanna do, why not do a whole dye chart instead?  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 02:33, 7 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, aren't all the images in an armor gallery supposed to have a purpose, to show some detail of an armor set in a way? I'm trying to say that atm, having the dyed single armor shots in the Deldrimor armor galleries is somewhat redundant if they're going to be small and show near exactly the same thing as the full dyed view so you may as well show them in the dye preview window, fully zoomed in. The gray zoomed out component views will still show how they look in relation to the body. I don't see how a dye chart has anything to do with it. Jennalee 02:44, 7 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Wasn't there a plan to do dye charts for all armor? (Not like that's ever gonna happen, realistically, considering the current state of the galleries as a whole...)  And having the full view is basically just trying to stay semi-consistent with the style of the other galleries.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 02:53, 7 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Other galleries don't actually have a dyed component view but they do have gray component views so it'd be consistent within itself if you wanted to have zoomed in dye component views. Dye charts would be a separate project if you want to make a page for it. Jennalee 08:29, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Earrings
Are you going to implement this Dr Ishmael? Jennalee 08:34, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'll do that right now. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:28, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Added Earrings option to, and updated Elegant Long Coat/Female to show it. I also updated the template to have "fake" headers, so people won't be confused and try to edit the template anymore.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:58, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Some modeling help
i might be able to help with some modeling on some armors, but not screening and croping the images cause i have to limited computer access, so i'm just offering my help as a model, Kurtan 19:49, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Great. Please check the project page and see which armors that you own still have a [[Image:Nope.png|16px]] or especially a [[Image:Attn.png|16px]] next to them, list them here and let us know your in-game name and when you are available.  It will be much appreciated if you can purchase your own dye (gray plus any other color you like, for the whole set), but if not, it will be provided for you.  Thanks.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 19:56, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * i might be able to get online today sometime, Male necro vabbian armor, Male assassin Ancient armor and Male dervish primeval and norn. might have some more but those are the ones i remember i have. Kurtan 15:32, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I added Kurtan The Killer to friends and I'll bug you if I see you online. Male Necro Vabbian would be the first I'd want to do, it's the worst of them all and relatively hard to find. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 16:06, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for modeling today. Necromancer Vabbian armor/Male is now up and I'll put up Assassin Ancient armor/Male probably tomorrow.  I'll see your Dervish next time. :)  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 05:18, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Some more models for the project
After my recent screw up with the Paragon Deldrimor armor, I am willing to be a model for a selection of incomplete armor (I can screenshot/edit my own pics, but I'd prefer not to). Currently I can model for : (N.B I cant do the scalp designs) Thats it, I am willing to un-dye the warrior armor, but not the others, due to my current funds :P. Just message me whenever im online and I should be free. I will also do the separate view pics.  }{ Ipo™ }{  13:54, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Regular Luxon Female W
 * Regular Platemail Female W
 * Regular Kurzick Male M (dye version only, poor after dying it white)
 * Regular Luxon Female M (dye version only, poor after dying it black)
 * Elite Canthan Female Mes (dye version only, poor after dying it black)
 * Regular Kurzick Female A (dye version only, poor after dying it white)
 * My brother has a female warrior with white primeval, so thats also another one I will model for (but not remove dye, due to it not being my character).  }{ Ipo™ }{  13:58, 7 August 2008 (UTC)