User talk:Zerris/Rt/R Nightmare Marksman

''Please test and vote on new builds. Testing is encouraged but not required.''

Favored: Unfavored:
 * 1) &mdash; Defiant Elements 00:29, 19 February 2007 (CST)
 * 2) Gee. Why didn't I think of using Dual Shot with Nightmare Weapon? Generous spike damage for a non-R/E using a bow, lifesteal serves as good selfheal. Very nice. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 02:44, 19 February 2007 (CST)
 * 3) Yes. --125.237.242.140 03:44, 19 February 2007 (CST)
 * 4) Great build. Strong spiker and fun to play Goldenmean
 * 5) Fun build, used Quickening Zeph and Troll, gets my vote. Kamer 19:36, 20 February 2007 (CST)
 * 6) Often run in Ha, great build.  Solus  [[image:Shield_of_Judgment.jpg|19px]] 01:40, 26 February 2007 (CST)
 * 7) --Cheese Slaya 23:33, 26 February 2007 (CST)
 * 8) Hoooray for the Ranger spike. Isis In De Nile 20:00, 4 March 2007(CST)
 * 9) awesome build --InfestedHydralisk 12:02, 9 March 2007 (CST)
 * 10) Great wtf effect on the opponents - Nytemyre 13:01, 14 March 2007 (CDT)
 * 11) Pretty amusing build to use on Fort Aspenwood. --Lord Oranos 19:06, 14 March 2007 (CDT)
 * 12) Not really a great idea, but it sees enough play in HA to be worth documenting. -Warskull 02:39, 15 March 2007 (CDT)
 * 1) (your vote here)

Discussion
Works nice for me, althogh it requires a Good caller/counter if used in a team build. It is also good to have a Grenth Derv with wildblow to help remove blocking skills and cripple the target - Viktor

Looks like an ingenious build, but very stub. You need to fill those slots with defense. --Apathy 17:56, 7 February 2007 (CST)
 * Well since I put this build under many categories GvG, RA, TA and HA, I think its hard to put out all skills in the build since a build must be alterd to fit the team its played with. I could make one variant for RA if that would make you happy, reply if you'd like that - Viktor

Hmm...I'd like to see this with a ranger spike...lol.Cheese Slaya 18:42, 7 February 2007 (CST) Nightmare->Dual->Distracting: Good. Kindle: Huh? I understand that doing damage outside of the main packet is important, since unless you can hit over 50some it'll just get eaten by Nightmare, but I don't see why Kindle is the go-to prep. 20 damage, reduced by armor, is... questionable. Why not spec into Beast Mastery instead, perhaps using your pet as a platform for Ancestor's Rage or giving him some other kind of weapon spell (Warmonger's Weapon on a pet is often very effective, since people don't usually expect the pet to be the source of the interrupts... or there's always Splinter Weapon for AB)? I think sticking with your Channeling guns will do more damage than Kindle would. Alternately you could spec into marksmanship, not for the damage of course, but for access to some of the disrupting skills therein; Pin Down (expensive but useful), Deb Shot, that sort of thing. Maybe I'm wrong, but I've just always found that Kindle ends up doing pitiable damage even with WS runes. Maybe it's the best choice you have simply because there isn't much else out there, kind of like sticking IWAY into a Primal Rage build, but I'd rather see some more Channeling love (perhaps Splinter Weapon while you're waiting for Nightmare to recharge, Wielder's Strike to start off a spike, Gaze of Fury to screw up opposing spirits, even good old Spirit Burn for a cheap, relatively spammable attack in between Nightmare spikes, provided that you add some kind of spirit to synergize with it and with Offering). It might deal the damage slightly slower, just because it doesn't do the damage with the Nightmare spike, but I find it unlikely that you'll actually kill anyone with just one nightmare spike anyway (150 life steal is beautiful and I applaud the combo, but it's not gonna take down anyone who's not under 50% already), an additional spell or two wouldn't make much of a difference. Also, if you're using this in a coordinated team, I would totally bring Quickening Zephyr. It fuels Offering and indeed lets you use it more frequently (without QZ: spend 5, gain 18, net gain 13 every 15 seconds. With QZ: costs 7, gains 18, net gain 11 every 8 seconds (rounding up). 11/8 = ~1.375 energy gain per second, 13/15 = ~0.867 energy gained per second), along with allowing you to use the Nightmare spike much, MUCH faster. Whether the additional energy gained by more frequent Offerings is greater than or equal to the extra energy costs on the attack skills I don't know offhand, but I think it might be worth trying, don't you? Good build, but could use a little more work before I actually vote on it. Zaq 18:06, 8 February 2007 (CST)
 * Personaly I think a pet could be useful but it may make you lose focus and I dont know what to prior 60 damage to the spike (btw Kindle arrows damage does not count as attack damage and is not reduced) or a pet that will take up atleast 2 slots in the skillbar maybe a 3rd for warmongers. I like that you have new ideas to the build QZ would indeed make the spike much faster but more expencive with a motivation paragon maybe... I have used Weilders Strike before BUT with Weilders Strike the spike will not come as a surprise if the monks can react and cast guardian on the target that may become a problem, hmmm you could trick the monks by casting it on a seconday target... Anyway good sugestions Ill add QZ and Wielder's Strike to the build. - Viktor
 * Second though, pet could work aswell I'll add it as a variant - Viktor

Fun little build, although I usually wield a staff at the beginning of a match so my team mates don't instantly leave when they see me with a bow. Hmm, HA with 4-5 Rt/R and a paragon using Anthem of Guidance? That's at least 400-500 life steal that can't be avoided or reduced! And if the Distracting Shots hits, your target is as good as dead! However, OoV wouldn't really work, since you're converting your damage into fire with Kindle. --72.194.109.3 18:40, 8 February 2007 (CST)
 * k, hehe forgot about OoV required physical damage :P removed it...- Viktor

Seeking Arrows or Read the Wind, maybe? Shido 06:04, 9 February 2007 (CST)

Seeking Arrows would require an investment into Marksmanship which would otherwise be wasted (given that there's just about no way that anyone with less than 16, or even 16 marks, will be doing 53 damage with these attacks, so the damage would be wasted), and seems to me like you could just use a Recurve Bow for the spike and not need RtW. That's how I see it, anyway. Zaq 06:28, 9 February 2007 (CST)
 * Agrees with Zaq. Btw if anyone finds any typos or bad grammar in the article please fix it or comment it here. - Viktor

I have been using this build for quite a while and i found out a few things. 1. They use a LOT of energy so you need to keep them in a build with either Offering of Spirit, signet of spirits or with Blood Ritual/BiP support. 2. You need to equip weilders strike. Its Awesome. Use it just after dual shot and just before distracting shot. The flight time of the arrows will ensure that you hit the target with weilders strike almost at the same time as the arrows. All in all 1 guy can do approx 250 dmg doing: Nightmare weapon + dual shot + weilders trike + distracting shot. All that damage hits within 1-1½ second. 3. For a team build in HA it might be better to go R/Rt instead of Rt/R. Yes, you reduce the strength of the spike a little, but you gain a lot of durability and energy management from expertise. 3 R/Rts with a paragon support still does approx 800 dmg pr. spike of which half is life steal. Thats should be enough. In GvG i would go for the extra spike strength of the Rt/Rs since it makes it possible to split the team and still be able to spike at the stand.--Jgod654 08:42, 9 February 2007 (CST)
 * I agree with all of the things you pointed out (R/Rt works in HA but Rt/R should be working aswell aslong as they get the support of a good motivation Paragon). I know that Wielders Strike is good, but so are any of the channeling spells that I mentioned. If you build a team around this you should have atleast one that brings Spirit Rift to take out spirts, since spirts can lower the spikes damage with Displacement and Union - Viktor

Idiot Savants [iQ] are currently using this build in GvG. They have 3 Rt/R spikers. You can see some of their matches in observer mode. They've been doing pretty well. Makes me wonder how it would be with even more spikers! --72.194.109.3 20:32, 9 February 2007 (CST)

I took the liberty of removing "cleanup|Need a lot of grammar fixes" from the article, put it back if you still thinks there are any bad grammar in the article or simply fix the bad grammar yourself, I dont mind - Viktor

I love the build, but i got another optional skill. Why not Forked Arrow? Its similar to dual shot, its just that you can't be enchanted or hexed or else it only shoots 1 arrow. Mgelo21 12:48,4 March 2007 (CST)
 * Forked arrow is weaker in every way since the other skills used in the spike has around 10 seconds cooldown, there is no use of having a 5 second cooldown skill that has some serious drawbacks. If you have a prot monk in your team for instance or if you are plaing to use an order necro (without the kindle arrows) forked arrows will be utterly useless, not to mention whenever you are hexed you will become less efficient aswell - Viktor 08:47, March 5 2007 (GMT+1)

Savage Shot > Distracting shot when used for spikes. I am bobo 06:03, 5 March 2007 (CST)
 * Savage Shot is more expencive and since Nightmare Weapon has 12 seconds cooldown there is no use to bring a 5 second cooldown predetermined attacktime skill and because damage is irrelevant Distractingshot is the better choice - Viktor 12:36, March 5 2007 (GMT+1)

I noted that a while ago someone removed it as a viable GvG build. I changed that back, because no reason for removing it was mentioned - Viktor 12:46, March 5 2007 (GMT+1)
 * Second time GvG sign is removed from this build please leave a comment to why you guys are removing it I dont mind having it removed if its for a good reason. - Viktor 03:25, March 5 2007 (GMT+1)
 * Show me an instance where one would use this build as a template in an 8-man build. --Lemming 01:48, 8 March 2007 (CST)

I found the following variant most effective in arenas:

Has anyone tried using Forked Arrow with this instead of dual shot? With a monk doing a lot of hex removal it might work. --Jasminethetender 20:09, 17 March 2007 (CDT)

Removal of GvG tag
Noone decent uses this in GvG. The only reason someone would use it would be a part of a spike, but this spike takes up a whole character. The reason people use spikes is that you can spike with something like 2 skills and have the rest of your bar for utility/defense. This character can't do this, and is a very sub-par choice for a spike. --Theonemephisto 20:54, 14 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Definitely isn't a good GvG build. Too fragile, not flexible enough.  A few guilds experimented, but other spikers are so much better. -Warskull 01:58, 15 March 2007 (CDT)