Talk:Soul Reaping


 * /Archive

/Post 2007-04-05 rants and counter-rants

Suggested Changes
Moved it down here so Skuld wouldn't have a fit. EDIT: Please don't change this template, I placed it here as a collection of suggestions from me, and they are consistent with eachother. Any additions to the template throw off what I think would be a balanced fix...if you have suggestions, make them in your own post. Spen 10:56, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I agree with this totaly removing spirit from triggering SR would solve the issure that teh nerf was intended for, I can tell you this nerf has not stopped SPIRITWAY but it has had a huge effect on many PvE builds and MMing, expecially in AB.

NOTE: Minoins already only give half energy from SR (the same as spirits) so that should be removed from the list of proposed changes unless you believe that it should be halved again.......which i have to admit would still be better then the current method. 123.3.44.89 00:16, 9 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Actually, I'm pretty sure they give full energy return. Thanks for your input, though. Spen 00:47, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Erm, yeah... Minions have ALWAYS given full energy from SR... that's one of the few reasons MMs were able to cope (in the past, anyway) with spamming 15-25 energy skills... That also is why some MMs used Bone Minions to kill two minions at once and get a SR spike to renew energy (I don't do that, personally, but I've seen it happen) --69.143.6.8 21:24, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
 * It makes sense to me to have spirits return energy. Its a fun pvp and pve tactic.  I get the feeling ANet has too big of a problem with removing tactics that werent originally intended, and keeping ones they thought were clever during game design (touch rangers come to mind as something they thought was clever during development, and have always gone soft on... not that I find touchers difficult to deal with, just citing an example).  Point being, ANet could do a better job balancing things to make the tactic still viable but not overkill.  Make spirit death energy return = one fourth or one sixth the soul reaping stat, or slightly lower the energy return in general.  But honestly I like it as it was.--Mooseyfate 23:03, 10 April 2007 (CDT)

I don't know who suggested it (sorry whoever did) but I like the idea for energy regen from a death. That way, it won't stack, and be more fair. If at SR 12, you get, hmmm...I guess 4 energy regen for 5 seconds or whatever. That way, as long as things die, you can still get the energy flow, but massive energy use would still deplete the energy pool. Skax459 15:35, 11 April 2007 (CDT)


 * That big yellow box is horrible. And it takes up most of my screen on 1024x768. Is there no way you could make it less... foul? :P I can completely understand why Skuld tried altering it.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 07:34, 13 April 2007 (CDT)

The box is ugly as hell, but then again so is Anet's reasoning for the nerf, so it's only fair. :)NightAngel 08:58, 13 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Hmmph, if you have a problem with its appearance, take it up with me! Or help redesign it... [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 23:12, 13 April 2007 (CDT)

rollback
i'm still hoping anet will roll this back soon. i can't keep a full complement of minions anymore even with consume corpse and the reduced costs. the heroes can't keep more then 1/2 complement. for nearly two years the necromancer hasn't been a problem, and now all of the sudden it's a major issue that requires a total rewrite of the class? so spirit spammers are a problem, remove or further reduce the soul reaping benefits from spirits. don't replace the engine because your speakers are buzzing. --Honorable Sarah 03:03, 7 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Having my first MM experience earlier, since the update, I also noticed that no matter WHAT, I could not break 7 minions, and usually maintained 5. And this was in the southern shiverpeaks. Factions and NF must be hell. Spen 03:05, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
 * take a look at the picture at the top of General minion mastery guide, that's tetracyclide keeping a modest (for the time) 16 minions in line behind him. i used to adverage 16, and once i had over 80 while doing The Great Northern Wall. i can't keep more then 5-6 now, and my heroes aren't even breaking 4. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 03:49, 7 April 2007 (CDT)


 * I remember those days. I have screens of myself with 18+ minions. That's twice we've been nerfed to hell. Spen 10:35, 7 April 2007 (CDT)

OK I'm biased since I run necro heavy teams, but basically the nerf punishes necros around groups that somehow manage to kill large numbers of enemies at once. Whether you kill one thing every 5 seconds or kill 10 in one second, you get the same amount of energy. Means you wander around the easy parts of PvE at a slow and _boring_ pace. I always thought that necros were the class that were happy about deaths and the more deaths per second = more fun and evil laughter, even if they were deaths on your own team and you were next in line ;).

Seriously were a lot of PvP'ers grumbling about Soul Reaping? Or PvE'ers? Are people now just going to say in hindsight that it was overpowered just because Anet "fixed" it. I wouldn't bother speaking up if Anet had a track record of getting balance right, but history shows they don't. They seem to "flail about a lot" - changes seemed rushed. Almost seems like whoever it was in Anet who had a clue about skill balance is no longer in charge and now others are in charge. So what was the problem they were trying to fix? Problems they introduced earlier in NF and Factions? Were they worried about 6-8 searing flames necro-elementalists? Some laughed at me when NF came out and I suggested SF necros + Psychic distract necro + MM with Jagged Bones etc. I suppose the risk of 2 human necros + 6 hero necros in the next edition was too much?

Oh well, they eventually have to destroy GW to make way for GW2, after all GW is not per month subscription. But I don't think I'd bother with GW2 if this is the way they keep "balancing" stuff. 218.111.46.88 05:51, 7 April 2007 (CDT) --(targetdrone)

It's for N/Rt Spirit Spammer + Healers and N/Mo healers. -Silk Weaker 06:37, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
 * The necros breaking gvg and HA needed a balance, but there were probably better solutions. Lord of all tyria 06:39, 7 April 2007 (CDT)

So how does this nerf actually fix things?
Spiritway is still possible right? So why is Anet annoying lots of people just to push a halfbaked solution to "spiritway/spiritspam", especially when there are other ways to fix things? Why should we have to "deal with it" or "get over it" when there's no evidence that Anet is even _fixing_ anything with the changes.

Why not just reduce energy gain from spirits then for the same effect? Even zero energy - it's not like spiritway is such a glorious tactic that's worth preserving for future generations.

I'm glad Anet aren't in the medical industry - their cures would be worse than the disease. They should do the smallest simplest change in the "feature" necessary to address the complaint. Unless there is a big architectural problem but _before_ these changes I didn't hear anybody complaining about the way Soul Reaping worked, only just complaints about "spiritway". Sure Soul Reaping was powerful, but seems only now you hear the complaints in hindsight from "Me-too-ers". Without spiritway, Soul Reaping as it was didn't unbalance PvP much, and even in future scenarios there are better ways of fixing it without changing PvE behavour (and it's not as if Anet thinks things through and tests before doing changes- so they might as well save those fixes for the future till lots of people actually complain about Soul Reaping). 218.111.46.88 09:11, 7 April 2007 (CDT) (targetdrone).

Let me start by saying that I HATE, HATE, HATE this change but, I don't think just eliminating energy gain from spirits is going to fix the N/Mo Healer problem. If energy gain from spirits is eliminated, then teams will instead summon low level bone minions (remember 2 per cast) and then just either let them die or Taste of Death them to death. They could also use jagged bone to keep them alive nearly permanently. I think eliminating energy gain from spirits is a step in the right direction, but I think there is probably also some other change is required (perhaps nerfing Jagged Bones again?) to resolve the issue. In any event, the current SR nerf has to be changed for sure. The biggest issue I have with it is they lowered the cost of minion, but what about all the curses and blood spells? There are more necros that just MMs!24.163.34.174 11:25, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Animate Bone Minions was possible way before spirit way and NF, and nobody managed to abuse that viably. If it's just spirit way and jagged bones that are broken, fix those not SR. SR has been the way it was for a LONG time and nobody complained. Anet's just fixing balancing screw ups with bigger screw ups (look at the quality of the recent update, obvious bugs everywhere do they look like they actually test stuff properly?).
 * You look in the right direction. However, there's a 5 energy cost for Taste of Death, in addition to the low level minion cost, still 15 for minions. So, for 25 energy, you return two SR bonuses, assuming it's at 16, 32 energy. That's a net gain of 7 energy. Less than a single SR death under normal circumstances. EDIT: It also occurred to me, with all the AP in Soul Reaping, and then in DM for a one cast kill with Taste of Death...you have very little AP left for ANYTHING, including healing. Spen 11:09, 7 April 2007 (CDT)


 * I think you misunderstand how the N/Mo healers work. There is one caster (an N/Rt or Rt/X) summoning spirits/minions while there are X other N/Mo's spamming heals. So, the cost of the summons or binding rituals don't matter because the healers aren't the ones incurring the cost. In fact, you kind of prove the point because the "summoner" would actually gain energy as he powered the N/Mo healers.24.163.34.174 11:26, 7 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Fair enough, I can honestly say I do not have any experience with the spirit spamming in PvP, because I am not a PvP player. That is not to say I do not think there was a problem, because, quite obviously, there was. I just think there are better solutions than to cripple PvE necros...and I can say that I am crippled, running mineral springs and Witman's Folly and Talus Chute and Perdition Rock as tests...I could only maintain an average 5 minions. For most MMs, this is effectively a second minion limit nerf. Which is horrible. For most Factions areas and missions, MMs are an essential member of a group, and now we can only run 5 or so minions?


 * Furthermore, as I understand it, the Spirit spammers cast a RIDICULOUS amount of spirits. More than two minions everytime Animate Bone Minions recharged, I'm sure. Even with the minion plan, I don't think it would be nearly as effective as the spirit spammers were. Nerf successful. But instead, instead of removing the SR bonuses from spirits (or even halfing it from minions, too, I'd accept that) A-Net just goes off and nerfs an entire profession. That was a GREAT attribute of the necromancer. One of the most important ones, probably the most important. It's been there for ever, but now it's gone. Spen 13:12, 7 April 2007 (CDT)

....What are you people, brain dead? The infinit energy ability is the ONLY reason (other than runes) that people played as Necros. Take that away and the class become useless. The Necro class has always been a battery with its wells and the ability to cast high powered spell without a thought. ~Nicholas Petruzzi

Well, I have to admit, after doing a quad run on Gate of Anguish last night as a BiP, I really didn't feeel crippled or even really annoyed by the SR nerf. I had a little bit less energy (and I take ranger spirits so I was getting half SR part of the time) but I still managed to do my job fine. I think for general PvE it will be painful to run any kind of necro, including MM - which I find boring but useful (and thus delegated to heroes). However, as to Sarah's comments that her heroes were not breaking the 4 minion mark, I had Olias this morning on Nightfallen Jahai and he was managing a comfortable 7-8 minions with an Order of Undeath build (I still can't believe that was unfavored twice...). I had myself as Promise Nuker with Zhed and Sousuke and we steamrolled through Jahai. So maybe it isn't that bad? At any rate, it is very stupid solution to their problem, completely unappropriate. It should either have been this way all along or never again. Makes no sense to fix spiritway like this NightAngel 12:14, 7 April 2007 (CDT)

For PVE this change is bad for MM necromancers especially, but in PVE MM necromancers were kinda like easy mode, even after the last nerf. I think some interesting builds will come out of this.


 * MMs and SS Nukers. SS Nukers much more so, because everything dies at once. At least with MMs there is SOME spreading of deaths on the timeline. Spen 13:12, 7 April 2007 (CDT)

2 question 1-has anything else ever promoted this much controversy? 2-Who knows how to work a LAME template? ~Nicholas Petruzzi
 * so what your saying is that a team who sacrifices both divine favor and a damage character to spam spirits was beating normal teams to healing because they found a way to generate energy that is almost described the description of the attributes? and that this, which has been not only possible but happening for close to a year and provides energy to both team's necormancer, suddenly requires a knee jerk keboshing of an entire class's primary attribute, rather then a specific fix to the specific use. that's not overkill at all. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 13:41, 7 April 2007 (CDT)

About the energy gain in PvP from only minions... I do not think that minions in PvP would replace Spirits if SR would be changed to give 0 enrgy per spirit. Simple becouse there aren`t too much corpses in PvP gameplay (except AB). And I though that most builds have (or would have after such change) a CC (corpse control) in it, so the minions couldn`t be spawned (corpse would be used way before). And so no energy spirits and full energy minions could work (while this PvP build - no longer) --DragonLord 15:30, 7 April 2007 (CDT)

How ANet should NOT fix this
How ANet could totally muck up the necro class even further (HINT: DO NOT DO THESE!):
 * 1) Move a bunch of unused skills to Soul Reaping attribute, saying "you now have skills that use this attribute now"
 * 2) Move useful skills to Soul Reaping, doing this will not fix Soul Reaping, and will make people waste points in the now useless attribute.
 * 3) Remove energy gain from Soul Reaping completely.
 * 4) Make Soul Reaping only trigger on enemy deaths.
 * 5) Make SoLS return 4x the energy it currently does (still not really useful, very situational, and 50%? Blah, more like 40% for trigger).
 * 6) Make BiP work on yourself (requiring an elite as your own only real form of energy management is useless, nevermind the whole 33% sacrifice)
 * 7) Reduce the cost of all necro spells by 50-66% (if you do that, I will necro with my Rt or Ele, Necro will still be useless).

Anyone else got suggestions for how to NOT fix this situation? Add them to the list.

BTW, I went to Hero Battles last night (observer mode wasn't working), and I got to say, LAME! Don't even go there unless you bring 3 Rt, see my Talk page for details. Queen Schmuck 15:35, 7 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Urf, #7. I swear, if anyone posts how to fix something is most wrong way (as in, DO NOT DO THIS), that is how ANet fixes it.  So...
 * Anet, the worst possible way to fix SR is the lower energy gained by giving 1 energy per 2 attrib levels, and remove all energy gain from spirits. Please do not fix SR in this way, as it would do nothing but fix gimmick builds and make PvE players happy again.
 * BTW, I haven't played GW since Apr 9. I don't have any inclination to start again either until ANet shows they actually give a rat's behind about what their largest group of customer's think (I'd say 70-80% of all players are PvE).  Queen Schmuck 03:00, 12 April 2007 (CDT)

Actual post-nerf MM performance reports
This is a data-collection section. Please reduce opinions and armchair-analysis to a minimal. Please exclude all rants and rebuffs to rants.

Simply state your experience running the nerfed MM by specifying what area/mission you were doing, whether it's hero or player doing the MM, and some info about the MM build.


 * For comparison, please also specify what it was like before the nerf. --Heurist 02:41, 8 April 2007 (CDT)

Please keep commentary (inside this section) to the minimal, to maintain a decent signal-to-noise ratio. Comments asking for details on the data acquisition method or suggesting a particular data acquisition method is fine.

Vabbi (general explorable areas)
Except for areas with heavy Elementals (no corpse), my MM hero keeps 7~9 minions up most of the time. Kournan scribes tend suddenly drop the number by quite a bit though, if I don't keep an eye on their Meteor. Long periods of backtracking and picking up loot also tend to drop the number of minions a bit. MM skills: Bone Fiend, Bone Horror, Blood of Master, Verata's Sacrifice, Verata's Aura, Heal Area, Martyr, Rebirth. -PanSola 21:54, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I keep a steady 7-8, get to 10 every once in awhile (but can't keep them all up). Flesh Golem, Fiend, Shambling Horror and BotM are the MM skills I use. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 17:46, 9 April 2007 (CDT)

Dzagonur Bastion
I was doing the Dzagonur Bastion using two MM heroes (Master of Whispers is using Blood equipment but has attributes and skills set for MM), Tahkora on a BoonProt build, and the four classic Ascalon henchies (Eve doesn't count as classic, though she's an Ascalon). The MM that follows me around consistently have 7~8 minions (sometimes peak at 9), except when the deaths gets stalled too much from trying to kill certain bosses. The second MM I station with the order of whispers varies a lot, sometimes getting up to 5, sometimes dropping to 2, I think party because enemy Priests are making things hard to kill, and the Whispers NPC tend to run outside bombardment range to kill enemies, which is also too far from where I told my second MM to guard. So when the MM following me reach 9 minions (and the fighting isn't too intense on my side), I'd rotate him off to do guard duty, and get the MM on guard duty to come join me for more minion raising.

Both MMs use only Bone Fiends and Bone Horror for minion skills, plus Taste of Death for some self-healing (probably a bad idea?), and carried Leech Signet for energy management (though I don't think either of them ever used it). No elites on either MM (haven't capped either Flesh Golem nor Jagged Bones). -PanSola 21:42, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Did you bring the blood henchman? HE/she brings BR, which may interfere with the test - Skakid9090 16:50, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
 * No blood. The "four classic Ascalon henchies" are Devona, Cynn, Aiden, and Mhenlo. -PanSola 23:43, 9 April 2007 (CDT)

Mineral Springs, Frozen Forest, other Southern Shiverpeak areas, Perdition Rock
With 7 hench, Bone Fiends, Flesh Golem, and the standard MM set up (including Dark Bond).

Immediately, from the start, I noticed that enemy AI towards necromancers seems to have changed. Normally, I do not have trouble taking damage from mobs, but it seemed every single mob I aggro'd immediately went after me, past all the other casters (mesmers, monks, and elementalists). Not sure if this is an unnannounced update, but it was really hindering my abilities.

The second thing I noticed was, of course, the SR problem. Most of the bad guys died in a fairly short time period, and I could usually only walk away from each mob with 3 minions (one Flesh Golem). Those three would die with the next mob, with which I would raise 3 minions, etc. It was VERY HARD to gain momentum, which is the basis of an MM.

The third thing I noticed was that the minion AI (at least for fiends) seems to have been changed. Previous to the update, they would almost ALWAYS (75% of the time, at least) target one creature and spike it before moving onto the next. Today, I noticed the fiends switching targets frequently, and the Golem running around like a maniac. This obviously hurt the cause, and resulted in slower killings and more minion deaths.

When I COULD get a good 7-10 minion group, which took a while usually, but did happen occasionally, I could keep it going. Once you GET there, the MM is still an MM. The problem is getting there. Spen 23:22, 7 April 2007 (CDT)


 * It might be worthwhile to collect data on what happens if you use a hero to aggro the mobs while having yourself (as the MM) and the other henchies stay a bit back, to better analyze aggro pattern. -PanSola 00:45, 8 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Unfortunately, no NF until April 22nd-ish. If anybody else is willing, it'd be a great help. Spen 00:50, 8 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Confirmation on Flesh Golem running in circles (tested with 4 and 8 in party). If there are 3 targets all roughly same distance to you, he keeps running between them, every once in awhile hitting one, then moving to the next one.  In my testing, I quit using him because of this.  See my talk page for details.  Queen Schmuck 14:12, 8 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Thanks for that. Any work with the fiends? It may be harder to test than the golem, since to test if they still spike one opponent before some of them switch targets, you'd need a decent amount. Spen 16:48, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah, fiends work great, actually best minion from what I saw. No meat shield, but very good for quickly attacking and staying on that target until dead.  Melee minions seemed to recheck for target if what they were flailing at made any movement, as in, the minion was just sit there a look at it for 3 seconds or so, then acquire target again.  Not sure when this changed (recently been busy getting W and D through NF), but I know for sure this isn't how it used to be.  I'd also be completely cool with a zero energy from spirits and 1/2 energy from minions change.  The minion bonus is best when refreshing your oldest minions (when at max, new minion kills oldest, allowing energy for another minion).  This is usually seen at the very beginning of battle, or after it is done and you have a pile of corpses to play with.  Queen Schmuck 17:34, 8 April 2007 (CDT)

Perdition Rock with Horrors instead of Fiends
The above results were taken when I used Fiends and Flesh Golem. I figured, if anything, the positive feedback I'd read here was from people who used the less energy costly minion spells...and I was right. It was very easy to maintain a 6-10 minion army, with one Flesh Golem. The problem is, these aren't fiends, and are thus less effective. Also notable is the AI (mentioned above) causes the horrors and Golem to frequently switch targets, leading to travel times and less damage overall.

I STILL noticed an increased rate of aggroing on me...it seemed every single mob would just run right for me. And, perhaps even more disturbing, when I tried to kite they would STICK LIKE HELL. I mean, they would not get off me. I ran past all the other casters, hid behind rocks, you name it, they would keep following me. This is definitely a problem, and I hope it's a bug.

Final synopsis: Fiends nerfed big time. 25 energy is too much for the nerfed SR to cover for...but most other minions should still be pretty effective for their energy. I'm glad to see they also lowered the energy cost to a few other Necro spells...still...I'd rather just use the suggestions in the template above. Spen 21:14, 10 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Just going to say, about the extremely long chasing, I noticed that too. My entire party scattered, and they all stopped, safe. Like one minute later, they are all going "wtf dude? wtf are you doing get back over here" and I'm going "OMG THINGS ARE CHASING MEEEE"...so, yeah, the really long following is really annoying. Skax459 16:05, 11 April 2007 (CDT)

Gate of Anguish
So far the effects have been minimal. I have done a quad run and a dual gloom+foundry run, among others, with my LB 7 Necro, and have felt almost no difference. It does change "mindless spamming" a bit, but I can still keep almost everyone bipped almost all the time, even being hurt twice by the nerf - one because things die in clumps (MS+damage spikes), two because I use 4 spirits on my bar and thus get half energy gain at times. Even under the City of Torcqua environmental effect AND with Quickening Zehpyr up (which I carry on my bar, and so do Margonites) it was still doable, you just have to be creative. For instance, if you drop to zero energy and die to Famine, have your HB restore life on you. Voilá, instant 40+ energy to keep on bipping. Just remember to tell the overzealous Emos not to sac chant you up. :) NightAngel 10:54, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Many many runs after, and I can truly say the nerf is imperceptible in Gate of Anguish for Bippers and SS alike. Just like the "Hard" mode. NightAngel 10:18, 21 April 2007 (CDT)

Domain of Secrets
Seeing minor effects so far. I typically farm LB with a primary SS N/Rt with both Master and Olias set up as N/Mo Minion bombers, both with Verata's Sac rather than BotM for minion support. Both are able to keep up max minions pretty much all the time. I do notice that their energy is not nearly as maxed out as before (and neither is mine), but still workable. I have more E issues than the heroes, but still very workable. Its just not mindless spamming of spells for me any longer. I have noticed one effect I haven't seen mentioned in any discussions. The 5 second timer for deaths from creatures and minions doesn't seem to affect the SR energy gain from spirits. A spirit death immediately after a minion death will result both energy gains. Some testing is necessary to figure out how exactly this works right now. iglam 04:56, 10 April 2007 (PDT)

Vizunah Square
I okayed my ritualist minion killer, brought Olias as an OoU MM, and the other team had a flesh golem MM. As usual Boon of Creation kept my minion supply up and well. Olias held an army of 7-8 most of the time, with spikes of as low as 4 and as high as 10. He used BoTM quite often, around every 4 seconds. The MM on the other team had an army of 8 minions by my eye (when I asked him how many minions he was averaging he told me to "STFU nub"). - Skakid9090 14:02, 9 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Ah yes, it's always nice to see civilized and mature people capable of behaving as actual human beings, isn't it? I still bugs me to no end that they nerfed a primary attribute because of an exploit that should be fixed directly. Either it was overpowered since they made the game, and they should have the balls to admit that, or it wasn't, and you just need to reduce spirit SR income to 1/4 or zero. NightAngel 15:45, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Vizunah Square is not typical PvE.
 * As you stated, this is usually run with 2 MM, as there are just that many enemies (and corpses) constantly popping up. With 15-30 enemies around you, it is very likely that there is a death right at every 5 second interval.  Having less then 10 minions (level 16 Death) in this area, once combat begins, only happens when you get a chain effect of death nova/afflicted explosion, which then usually triggers even more death nova/afflicted explosion chains.  Even with all the simultaneous deaths, there are enough enemies still around to keep a death happening at every 5 second interval (well many more than 1 death, but I can easily see a death every second in such mobs, which would trigger SR in currently most efficient possible way).  I have not played Vizunah Square with my necro since the "SR fix", but I used to be able to easily spam BotM/Heal Area combos while waiting for minion spells to recharge (basically, casting every second while in battle).  Yes, that went through a huge amount of energy, because it was a huge amount of creatures being killed.  Also note that Channeling on any spell caster would give them nearly limitless energy while in this very same situation, so SR, as the benefit of being a primary Necromancer, has no advantage here other than not having to cast an enchantment for energy (in fact, Channeling just became WAY more effective than SR because of nerf to SR).  To make this balanced, Channeling would only:
 * give energy once every 5 seconds (but not within 5 second window, as the 5 second delay counter starts when energy gained (spell cast), so if you gained energy, then waited 9 seconds to cast next spell, you wouldn't get 3rd energy gain until at minimum 14 seconds)
 * energy gain maxed at your Inspiration Magic level
 * chance of your energy gain be 1/2 max
 * Channeling would then be absolutely ridiculous (but balanced with nerfed SR).
 * In normal PvE, there are not 15-30 enemies attacking at once (10 yeah, but if there are that many over 15, you are dead; check out Ice Dome in Tyria with terrible aggro control, or even worse, the Desolation with large roaming mobs of Awakened - aggro 2 mobs at same time, you die).
 * I applaud you for at least checking this out with a nerco hero. Now check a less populated area, as you'll see a noticeable difference in efficiency.  Queen Schmuck 16:44, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Well, I picked Vizunah because of the abundance of courpses and i wanted to see what things were like when there are 28 (10+10+my 8) minions are kept up constantly. Next I'll test in... DoA xD. Also, channeling gives energy for foes in the area, and a caster being in the area isn't too safe. - Skakid9090  22:22, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
 * It's easy to build up an army when you're in the same area with tons of corpses for a long time. It's then just a matter of waiting for your energy, if need be. Plus, with the number of deaths...honestly, you'll get nothing that convenient in a different PvE setting. Vizunah is pretty much heaven for an MM, that's why you usually get 2 or 3 in there at a time. Spen 22:28, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Please, This is a data-collection section. Please reduce opinions and armchair-analysis to a minimal. Please exclude all rants and rebuffs to rants. - Skakid9090 23:37, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
 * It is not armchair analysis, sorry, I've been there and played an MM in Vizunah Square and out of it. Armchair analysis is when you discuss something you haven't done. *Looks at lack of PvE Necromancer* Spen 23:49, 9 April 2007 (CDT)

From Jade Sea, through to Torment
My main is a 3-campaign, everything done, 291-elite, multi-title etc etc necro, pure PvE, and I've used numerous builds, from conventional through experimental to downright odd, so I had no lack of background for testing this change. My immediate observation is one that (oddly) nobody else has made here yet:

Foe corpses now expire before we can use them, all the time!

This change has *dramatically* slowed the pace of the necro game. That pace used to be in step with normal rates of foe death, and rarely would a team have to wait for the necro to make his or her minions before moving on. Now in contrast, everything stops, while the necro painfully tries to gain the energy to use up corpses before they expire --- and often fails!

Corpse expiry is a black-and-white symptom, it can't be misinterpreted: any corpses that expire represent a loss of necro capability. In other words, the MM necro has been extremely badly affected by this change. Also worth noting is that this happened repeatedly even in Torment, where foes certainly don't fall very rapidly. Nevertheless, the necro fails to keep up, and corpses expire.

Just briefly, also observed as an effect of SR reduction: as per the latest patch notes, Icy Veins has been nerfed too, by doubling its energy cost to 10. This was the only decent nuke available to us, and properly powerful for an elite. The increase in its cost coupled with the decrease in SR energy to power it has completely destroyed this unique necro spell. Morgaine 0237, 11 April 2007 (GMT)


 * I haven't noticed the corpse expiring thing...probably because I am forced to move on before I properly make minions out of every corpse. Energy just recharges too slowly without SR, period. Spen 21:47, 10 April 2007 (CDT)

ice caves
zzzz &mdash; Skuld 13:31, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Well that should make the irritated people calm down. Lord of all tyria 13:51, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Heh. Olias used glyph of lesser energy twice. Just twice. &mdash; Skuld 14:01, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * If it wasn't for the fact I never MM, I'd complain you were using hacks. Lord of all tyria 14:07, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Rotting flesh? Urgh. Crappy crappy crappy. :) I used to think Order of Undeath was the way to go with MMs, but after this stupid nerf I'm not so sure, since it's so energy intensive. I'll have to try it out when Hard mode arrives - after all, the additional damage on order is armor ignoring, which is crucial when your enemies are high level. I still think the best solution is the most obvious one. Remove bonus from spirits. With each passing day I'm more convinced they will not revert the change, however, as they proceed to reduce the energy cost of most major Necro skills (SS, Order of Vamp..). Sigh. They should at least have the decency of coming out and saying "SR was broken, we had to fix it, and this Pvp stupidity gave us an excuse. yes, an excuse. So there you have it". yeah, right. NightAngel 14:32, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Is here any humour involved? &mdash;[[User:Sigm@|Sig mA

]] 14:37, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * On what? Rotting Flesh is crap. Order of Undeath is (or was, depending on SR change effect) the best MM elite. Order's damage bonus ignores armor. My suggestion to remove bonus from spirits is serious and is quite consensual (a poll at guru forums gave it 4/5 of votes at 500+ voters). I think they won't remove change and the recent update is evidence to it. And yes, I think they used the PvP abuse as an excuse but won't admit it. So what the hell are you talkin about? NightAngel 14:42, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * OoU best MM elite? That's Flesh Golem!! &mdash;[[User:Sigm@|Sig mA

]] 14:46, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Only if you aren't good at math. How much damage does a golem do in 5 seconds, over and above a normal minion (since without golem you'd still be able to have another kind of minion up)? If it's less than 300-350 ADDITIONAL damage (after armor, btw), it sure as heck isn't as good as Order. I can understand how people are unable to see beyond an old elite, however. :) Heck, there are people in the Deep still using word of healing and elemental attunement. I guess old habits die hard. :))) NightAngel 14:48, 12 April 2007 (CDT)

Rotting flesh = -8 dmg per second x number of foes. Say a battle lasts 20 secs, thats 160 dmg per foe in the background. Lrn2love! The golem is sturdy and draws aggro, its not for pure damage. You can go through most stuff with no monks if you have animate flesh golem in the party &mdash; Skuld 15:08, 12 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Aye. Dark Bond + Flesh Golem ftw. And I HATE the acronym "ftw." As for your results, you were using multiple types of minions, as opposed to JUST Fiends. With JUST fiends, which is what I used to run, too much energy is needed. They really should get around to lowering the cost to fiends, if they plan on keeping SR this way. Spen 15:24, 12 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Then, um, run something else apart from fiends? I have zero sympathy if you don't even make the tiniest effort to adapt at all. &mdash; Skuld 15:30, 12 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Oh, I understand that. That's why I've submitted two test results, one with my former MM, and one with other minions to see if the energy cost makes a difference. It does. I'm only saying that fiends are completely unusable now, and they are. I'm not asking for your sympathy, just trying to get you to admit that fiend MM builds have been ruined and the other builds hampered by this update. Spen 14:01, 13 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Trying to get Skuld to admit something? Lol. :) I'd start reserving a cryogenic freezing service right away. :) NightAngel 14:25, 13 April 2007 (CDT)

Come on Skuld, you and I both know foes in PvE don't last long enough for that to matter much. Rotting's main problem is that it is slow as molasses. Heck, no, it's slower than a crippled snail hiking a steep buttered slope. Besides, my teams are already inflicting burning and bleeding, so disease is redundant. Not to mention dangerous against humans. Nah. too many bloody downsides. If you want to make your poor hero waste his time, use death nova (assuming u use melee minions, which you have to, with the new costs). Well, I like to kill stuff. FAST. Hate wasting my time. So Order is what I use to mow down enemies. :) Had a blast with order on Urgoz Warren on that elite canthan weekend. The yellow numbers were beautiful. Wouldn't trade that kind of humongous offensive power for a puny little special minion, that's for sure. :) Have to admit, at that time I still had "infinite energy". Now.... Sigh. Stupid Anet. No energy from spirits, half from minions, and get SR back you dumasses! -mumbling- NightAngel 16:20, 12 April 2007 (CDT)


 * No-one is saying replace OoU with rotting flesh, use both :p &mdash; Skuld 16:57, 12 April 2007 (CDT)

Something you fail to notice is that MMs are NOT the only Necromancer build. If anything, the reason this update sucks is because it hurts just about every build except MM, as MMs have minions to fuel their energy.
 * Did the southern shiverpeak bonuses, dunes of despair bonus, and glint yesterday with SS, and had no energy problems at all, change your skills or you fail. Lord of all tyria 11:31, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeh, did most of kaineng city with my necro yesterday as SS.. no trouble what-so-ever. I did, infact, notice that MM is not the only build, but I see a lot of wannabe-MM/anti-pvp whiners saying that MM is dead and buried, this is meant to disprove that &mdash; Skuld 11:51, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I have to ask, what is this "MM" people keep talking about? Gate of Anguish Addict --> NightAngel 12:30, 13 April 2007 (CDT)

Underworld
I've been running this build, (A dual mm-heroes build, with the player as the succer), since before the jagged bones nerf. it worked well then, and it works the same now, after the SR nerf. I feel no difference at all. Foo 16:27, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Looks like that build should see no difference at all from SR change. Vamp weapon deaths take much longer than 5 seconds between deaths.  Even the res takes longer than the SR cooldown.  Nice team build idea btw, I might try it out once ANet admits they did not do SR change to fix PvP (the thing I hate worst is their deceit to the change, not so much the change itself).  Basically, I want ANet to admit it understands that its lifeblood is the people that spend money on their products, and not their own internal ideals.  Queen Schmuck 19:56, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Thanks. building the army is the easy part. when I say that I feel no difference, I'm mainly talking about the pressure during fights. that's when the necromancers need to heal themselves, heal the minions, and cast death nova and jagged bones. Foo 01:17, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Unless this build is super efficient, Aatxes don't die in less than 5 seconds. :P  But I do understand where you are coming from.  Queen Schmuck 01:50, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Aatxes don't, but graspings do, and three aatxes kill more than one minion per 5 seconds. Foo 03:38, 13 April 2007 (CDT)

Casual comments related to the above performance report section
If you have comments not directly pertaining to the data acquisition, then please leave them here instead. Thank you q-: -PanSola 01:56, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
 * You might want to make it a subpage, then people can talk about the subpage on it's talk page, seperating the chatter from the area info. Queen Schmuck 02:31, 13 April 2007 (CDT)

Altering MM play style
I haven't actually noticed any major changes in playing a Minion Master even with this "nerf" if I recall correctly 5 seconds isn't that long it just means instead of relying on making new minions as soon as animate "x" is recharged you have to work more on Minion matainence which isn't hard to examples are: 1)With the reduction in Vampiric Horrors energy cost they can be an effect way to supply health for more frequent BotM. 2)Or just take Aura of the Lich as the elite and enjoy the major reduction in the sacrifice to keep Minions healthy with great ease.


 * Consume Corpse-Silk Weaker 06:28, 8 April 2007 (CDT)

Oh yeah that could help, forgot about that I only use it on my Warrior ¬_¬

Necro Power Decrease -- Multiple Compounding Effects
After posting my observations in the Performance Reports section earlier about the very high increase in foe corpse expiry rate, I sat down to figure out the theoretical effect of this on necro power ... and I'm utterly horrified!

Those who have focussed entirely on the size of their armies and nothing else are not getting the true picture of what this nerf has done.

The claims of up to 3/4 energy loss sound bad, until you realize that this only includes the first-order effect, whereas in reality the effect is compounded (not just cumulative) with 2nd, 3rd and 4th order factors, if not more. I have to say that I'm shaking as I write this, because the deeper you look into it, the more appalling the full picture becomes.

First of all, the size of a minion army is only one factor in several, and it loses its meaning entirely at the cutoff point so you need to look at other factors such as minion renewal. It goes without saying that if corpses are expiring now (whereas before, that was almost unheard of for me), then the renewal rate has plummeted drastically. This decrease in renewal rate is an extra compounding factor here, multiplying the effect of the nerf.

Just as important as the size of a minion army (or even more so) is the longevity of each minion, because old minions have one of the highest degen rates in the game. In other words, a max-degen minion is not only worth nothing in a very short space of time (compounding factor #2), but prior to its final demise it has become a liability since it requires ever-faster rates of upkeep.

Upkeep requires energy, but we have none to spare because we're saving up to exploit all those corpses that will be expiring soon. In other words, SR energy reduction is compounded further by the increased upkeep from the increasing age of minions. That's #3.

But it gets worse. To add insult to injury, having to save up for our next animate spell means not only that we're healing our minions less but also that we're casting fewer Death Novas so that our minions are less deadly on death, a big #4, as well as all the other things that necros do, like nuking. So, the usefulness of a necro to a team totally plummets when playing the energy-saving game --- we are dead weight and just being carried along by the rest of the team while not casting.

It's quite easy to find additional efects #5 and #6 affecting teams through lack of minion decoys and minion barriers and barbs- type multipliers when we can't supply a full quota of minions, but I'll leave it at just 4 compounding effects --- that's bad enough! In fact, it's nothing short of disastrous. The necro is entirely an energy-based profession, so by decimating his sole cross-campaign energy management mechanism, he has been destroyed, at least for those who play PvE necros to the max.

[Before I sign off, just let me say that the suggestions made by some about using energy management from other professions have totally dire consequences from a game design standpoint. Energy management has to be an inherent and fully viable part of each profession alone, otherwise that profession is compromised in its ability to freely choose secondaries -- a crucial part of the game.]

In summary, this is a complete disaster that goes far beyond the simplistic observation of minion populations alone. If you take nothing else away from this post, please accept at least that an army of old minions at max-degen is not an asset but an extreme liability, both as a direct result of the rapid upkeep sacrifices and also from the drop in productive activity while in energy-saving mode. This is more than just bad. Morgaine 0650, 11 April 2007 (GMT)


 * .... Even with the susposed problem(fast corpse removal) i still haven't had any problems keeping my army new and kicking, Only problem i have is energy on fiends which changes rather quickly, and i continue to move on and pwning, I still am having trouble seeing how your having problems with your mm. I see how the SR nerf is a little downsizing, but just hold some old crappy minions till u get up ur army, then use verata's sac and other skills....Stevo101 17:12, 12 April 2007 (CDT)


 * ... Well of course we will inevitably make changes to builds as a result of the nerf, but that's not relevant in an assessment report where you specifically keep all the variables the same so that you can determine the impact it has had. While this isn't exact science, we are trying our best to be as accurate as possible. ;-)


 * The point of this particular entry was to analyse the impact of the nerf beyond mere minion counting. The fact that so many compounding effects appeared in the analysis does explain why my tests with identical pre- and post-nerf builds witnessed new and absolutely massive corpse expiry post-nerf.  Adapt we will, of course, but that doesn't alter the fact that this nerf actually delivered a collosal decrease in necro power across multiple fronts beyond the obvious one.


 * Many professions have been nerfed over the years of course, but never on this scale and after years of perfectly satisfactory operation. Nerfs are a bad thing in general, but the present one was a totally inappropriate PvE nerf in response to a problem in PvP alone, of a magnitude totally out of proportion to the perceived need given the compounding effects, and completely unfair in changing the outlook of the necro as an energy generator into another burdened energy conserver.  It has spoilt the role of the necro in the game.  Morgaine 0321, 15 April 2007 (GMT)

Time for an actual vote?
I don't know about you all, but I'm kind of interested to see how GWiki is taking the recent nerf to Soul Reaping. Go here to vote. :)Freakonut 08:33, 17 April 2007 (CDT)


 * ... On a lighter note, I'd be interested to see how other professions would react if their own primary attribute were nerfed in the same way.


 * Mesmers only casting faster once every 5 seconds? Warriers only getting armor penetration once every 5 seconds?  Monks getting a healing bonus only once every 5 seconds?  Eles being able to use their energy bar extension only once every 5 seconds?  Rangers saving energy through expertise only once every 5 seconds? And so on.


 * I wonder how the other professions would like it.Morgaine 1445, 21 April 2007 (GMT)


 * How would the Necros like it if their Soul Reaping only activate while they are casting a Death Magic spell, if the energy gained from Soul Reaping can only be used on Spells (and not non-Spells skills), if it only increase their energy capacity and not actually give them more energy, or only have probabilistic effect (probability depending on rank in Soul Reaping) to gain energy? I bet many rangers would happily trade a every-5-sec use in exchange for Expertise to work on all thier skills, instead of just non-Spells.  Many Elementalists certainly would rather have a primary attribute that provides them more energy gain, and suffer the drawback of only be able to use extended storage every 5 seconds.  There are monks that would be happy to accept DF bonus only activating every 5 seconds if the DF bonus can work on ANY spell they cast, not just Monk spells.  Etc etc. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 15:58, 5 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Whoa whoa whoa there...energy storage may not be in itself active energy management, but it is energy management, and in addition there are a number of skills in the attribute which assist in management. SR has 5 skills (because of it's natural advantages that it no longer has) and three of them are elite. The only energy management non-elite? Extremely conditional, with an OK return. How is putting 10 or 12 or 16 points in SR with no skills for e-management any different from putting 10 or 12 or 16 in energy storage or inspiration and using a skill for e-management? It even unlocks additional, non-energy management spells under the attribute that SR doesn't even HAVE. Yes, SR is probably the single best energy management tool in the game, even post-nerf it's second or third, but it's an entire attribute that requires a hefty allocation of points that has very little linked skills that benefit from it. Spen 20:28, 5 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Better yet, what if the energy from soul reaping only worked on necro skills! No more n/mo or n/rt healers, minions masters will be happy and such. M s4 16:48, 5 May 2007 (CDT)

Additional Analysis: Statistical Effect Over Time
There is yet another compounding effect to this nerf that isn't apparent on casual reading: a statistical compounding over time.

The occurrence of two deaths within the same 5-second interval is statistical in most cases, rather than a simple linear function of killing rate, because it is very rare that all damage is limited to just one foe at a time. Indeed, the mark of a good skill is very frequently given by its Area of Effect, and generally the more foes that are affected the better, so people naturally select skills with AoE properties. And of course, humans and heroes/henchmen alike are always going to hit more than just the selected target, that's a fact of life.

What this means for the SR nerf is that the loss of energy is not limited only to the case when a single foe can be killed in under 5 seconds. In addition there is a statistical probability of up to P*50% that two consecutive deaths will occur within the same 5-second slot, up to P*33% that three will coincide in this way, P*25% that four will coincide, and so on, where P represents the degree of parallel damage, either through AoE or through targets being hit randomly.

(These numbers are not mathematically correct but only representative --- the real set of coefficients in this series is rather complex and P itself varies over the duration of the battle. The boundary constraints are that for a foe group of size 1 there can never be any energy loss, and for a foe group of size N there can be up to (N-1)*SR energy loss, or up to 87.5% loss for an 8-group.)

We pretty much never see the worst-case loss of course, but in the presence of AoE and minions and uncontrolled players or NPCs, it is a virtual certainty that energy loss occurs from the coincidence of at least two if not more deaths in the 5-second slot. This explains why I'm seeing corpses expiring when in teams with the traditional Olias all-minion-type MM build: the statistical loss of 2 or 3 energy gains adds up, and by the end of the battle there are corpses left on the battlefield ticking down towards expiry. Morgaine 1335, 21 April 2007 (GMT)

It sucks, especially if you have decent nukers in your team. Now if everyone did a good job nuking the necros have to sit and wait to get energy, or necros must just play MM with one of the builds that's _less_ affected (e.g. buy NF for SoLS and/or Jagged Bones). Talk about encouraging variety in the game. Nobody complained about SR being overpowered till recently (PvP spirit spam). I've NEVER walked into a town with lots of players and seen 90% Necros. In contrast I've certainly seen some towns filled with Monks (and W/Mos). So those who are only now saying Soul Reaping "was overpowered" severely lack _credibility_. I suspect Anet are nerfing Soul Reaping just because of something they are putting in the upcoming GW expansion. But I'm sure not going to buy it. 218.111.44.231 15:13, 5 May 2007 (CDT)


 * How is gaining 10-16 energy every few seconds for doing nothing, not overpowered? Not a single other profession nor skill can match that. Even with with the 5 second cap, its still overpowered.. &mdash; Skuld 15:27, 5 May 2007 (CDT)
 * In PvP, Skuld is correct, but people will not want to know why. Primary attribute's benefits, by definition, do not allow a 100% balanced game (and never will) since players can be dual profession.  The only way to fix this in PvP is to remove all secondary benefits from Primary Attributes, or to force primary profession skills only (won't happen).  Until one of these happens, people will "exploit" well defined game player class mechanics, which will forever cause other people to call for "nerfs".  In PvE, who cares (?!?) as long as the game is fun.  Izzy didn't totally stop Spiritway for a reason (SR trigger on spirits not removed).  Once people understand why, they will see a whole new side to the story.  Queen Schmuck 22:13, 5 May 2007 (CDT)

Ritualists as Minion Masters
So how are they compared to necromancer MMs now that Soul Reaping was nerfed?
 * Soul reaping is fine. Rit MMs are bad. &mdash; Skuld 02:29, 26 April 2007 (CDT)

Additional "hidden" updates?
I have definitely come to terms with the SR update, and honestly, no, it wasn't that bad. But since I began testing after the nerf, when I compare it to previous trips playing as an MM, I noticed a few disturbing trends. Mainly, these trends involve monster and minion AI. It seems I'm getting attacked much more often than before; often mobs will run right through front line minions and warriors to get to me. Secondly, I've noticed the minion AI is a lot more erratic...melee minions tend to run around between targets, occasionally returning to me before continuing to attack...and minions in general seem to take longer to "lock on" and longer to switch targets. If anyone else has noticed this, feel free to list your experience. The SR nerf wasn't that bad. I feel that if it were just the SR nerf, I could be done and over this by now...but it became more difficult to MM, and it had nothing to do with energy management. Spen 17:30, 1 May 2007 (CDT)


 * It might have to do with max health, armor, current health, and such. My friend was doing Orders in the Tombs, he was down to 1 max health (due to DP and sup runes) so he doesn't lose any health when saccing.  The Grasps ignored the wall of minions, pets, rangers, the monk, the Minion Master, and went straight for him (being the Orders he was at the very very back behind the backline).  So I think, encourage your Orders necro to wear more Sup runes, and that'll keep you as the MM safe. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 15:50, 5 May 2007 (CDT)


 * That's fine and all, it may work, but the thing is, under these exact same situations before I had no such experience. So there was an update of some sort. And the update has caused more problems than the SR nerf, for me, at least. Spen 20:16, 5 May 2007 (CDT)