User:Mendel/Talk Archive 10



I reserve the right to edit section titles to coincide with the section content. Size: bytes. =Comments=

Archive sizes
-- ◄mendel► 19:44, June 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) (should be around 80,000)
 * 1) (should be around 80,000)
 * 1) (should be around 80,000)
 * 1) (should be around 80,000)
 * 1) (should be around 80,000)
 * 1) (should be around 80,000)
 * 1) (should be around 80,000)

Archive sighses
&mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 20:43, June 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * User_talk:Entropy/Archive 24: -- ◄mendel► 21:05, June 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, I should archive now, get ahead of the game. Pity that User:Warwick/Archive size is broken, too. -- ◄mendel► 21:15, June 24, 2010 (UTC)

Randomness
Hi.

1) I apologize for this. 2) I've noticed what you said, but have yet to formulate a suitable response, which I also apologize for if it bothers you.

A F K When Needed 15:38, June 26, 2010 (UTC)


 *     -- ◄mendel► 19:56, June 26, 2010 (UTC) & 04:22, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

Custom navbar/font-size in other skins, mediawiki
So, I like having a small-font navbar and I like being able to customize my sidebar. However, it seems that setting my prefs to the Monaco skin isn't ideal. Plus, there are other wikis that don't seem to offer a sidebar option.

Is there some way of modifying a  so that it will absorb a   or  ? Poke has produced this script, to offer admin tools for use on GWW. (Works in conjunction with a personal js.) However, it's well beyond my meager understanding of wikicode. I was hoping that there might be a simpler method that would allow me to add simple links; I don't expect to be able to add tools. ( Please note the licensing, in which Poke requests that the code not be ported. )

Any suggestions for where to go for this type of thing? Or was that a rabbit I saw up your sleeve? Thanks! &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 18:45, July 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Ok, to prevent any misunderstandings, what you seem to want is to use monobook (not monacobook), and you want to add some links to the sidebar. It is no problem to add tools. So, woudl you like to add to the contents of a box on the sidebar, or would you want to create a new navigation box? What links/tools do you want to have added, and where do you want them?
 * If you want to make a mockup, use firefox to save the complete website, then add the links in the html, and make a screenshot; also, show a "diff" of what you did. -- ◄mendel► 19:05, July 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * The short version (pending a mock-up) is that I want to customize the navbar(s). If there's a cascading menu box called, "navigation", I'm content to modify it. If not, I'd like to add one.


 * Less importantly, I'd like to be able to control the font size of the navbar and "tabs" (the mediawiki topmenu). Ideally, I'd also like to add links and control the order.


 * Generally, I find that I dislike most mediawiki skins (fonts/colors distract from articles, have too many rarely-used links, not enough of my frequent-flyer links). Even the Wikipedia skins always have that huge language list (which most people don't need most of the time).


 * As I write this, I realize this is a much more complicated request than I originally thought. (Since, in effect, I'm asking for help in overlaying skin features on an existing skin...while pretending that I'm not creating a new skin.) Obviously, Poke has done that for a specific skin, on a specific wiki, using a highly flexible script to adjust links/content. I guess I was hoping that there was a simple, generic, solution that would work on multiple sites. That's probably unrealistic. Lemme think some more about this, see if I can either simplify the idea or provide a mock-up that clarifies how my proposal benefits the user. Thanks. &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 20:06, July 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * The cascading flyouts are a Monaco feature; you can customize that for yourself if you're using our "custom" skin, which I'm calling Monacobook. I can dig through the Wikia help to find the file you need to create to do this, but IIRC there are provisions.
 * The new Wikipedia skin does hide the language list somewhat; but the old monobook doesn't have "dynamic" navigation: you see some links in some boxes on the sidebar, and it's simple to change them or add new boxes, but to make flyouts means expanding the skin somewhat. That's what we have here. (If you do a mockup, zip everything up and email it.) -- ◄mendel► 21:19, July 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Cool. That's helpful. (I'm mostly continuing to reply so that the talk on your talk page catches up with the archive bar on your talk page.) &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 02:07, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * How wide your screen must be if it hasn't already! -- ◄mendel► 03:23, July 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) It was caught-up for me with your fist post here. How wide is your screen?
 * Anyway, my monobook.js does some basic modification of the sidebar (see the addBar function - modifies the RC link and adds new box with custom links). I'm sure it's nowhere near the level of customization you're looking for, but it might give you something to start with.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 03:25, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * That's similar to what I had in mind. -- ◄mendel► 03:32, July 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh? Awesome! Thanks, I'll check out your code later. (I'm guessing from what I've seen that I'll be able to follow your coding more easily than Poke's, too.)
 * @Mendel: I use full screen for everything and I'm running @1600x1200. I like lots of screen real estate to see as much as possible (why I prefer small fonts, cascades in navbars). Regardless, that's a l o   n   g  list of archived topics :-)  &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 03:36, July 2, 2010 (UTC)

possible ShowHide bug
If archives 1 through 8 aren't collapsed for you, something's not working right. -- ◄mendel► 04:07, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * They are not collapsed. &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 05:27, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * The archives are expanded for me while the page loads, then the Javascript for the ShowHide kicks in, and they close (see thumbnail for the result). Maybe it's time to debug that ShowHide code. What's your setup? -- ◄mendel► 08:45, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Firefox, running NoScript, selectivecookiedelete, and Better Privacy (among others). NoScript is blocking google-analytics.com, quantserve, google-services, and fbcdn.net. I have "let admins override" in prefs. Show/Hides work elsewhere in wiki. &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 14:02, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ugh, I'm always blissfully unaware of how ugly Monaco can be until moments like these when I hit the "monaco view" link in the sidebar to check something, and gah is this ugly (&rarr; screenshot)! I think this is the result of everyone who could care or know better using monobook anyway, and of course being hosted by Wikia, where every reskin deterioraties over time, unless maintained to keep up with the (sometimes unannounced and untracked) changes.
 * So, anyway, I should investigate into the other showhides and see if I'm doing it differently, or ask you to do a "hard reload" (like you did for mendelbook) of this page; I've had the javascript randomly not load today for me on UnAnswers, which means no toolbar, and a hard reload always fixed that.
 * The good new is that if you're running "admin's choice" (as if! most admins are running monobook, butwe're not allowed to set that as default), you should take a look at Help:Sidebar to solve your original problem. -- ◄mendel► 14:35, July 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * I should mention an oddity: I don't have a preferred skin listed at the moment. At one time, I think I chose one of the monobooks and also had "admin override" checked. Now, however, the override is checked, but none of the radio-buttons are active for my default skin. (I suppose this would only matter on wikias without an admin pref; I don't know that I visit any such). (Note: as a non-admin, aren't I entitled to run something else? ;-)


 * re: Help:Sidebar. I'm pretty well set in GWiki world. What I was hoping was to be able to setup something that I could take with me to other wikis, including wikipedia, etc. (I haven't looked at Doc Ish's script; that does have the sound of something that would do the trick.) I do like being able to put My Watchlist into the sidebar, since wikia has decided that we don't need a shortcut to get there anymore. (Which reminds me: has anyone offered a single reason for which Following is better than Watching for the purpose of following pages of interest?) &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 15:06, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * We used to offer some skins that Wikia discontinued support for some time ago; it looks as if you had one of those selected. If my userpage looks anything like the screenshot I linked above, you're getting "Monacobook". From Wikia's general direction of development, I guess they felt having "followed pages" for others to view was more social. It's a feature geared, like many others Wikia's been introducing, at the "casual" user, who'd find the watchlist too technical. -- ◄mendel► 15:32, July 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * My page looks similar, but not identical to screenshot. Differences: I have icons for create new/upload new, I have no show/hide links (nor any whitespace where they should be), I didn't accidentally use the screen capture license for a wikia page image. (Everything else seems oke.)
 * I have no problem with gearing features towards casual and social users. What I don't get is how this is better? Admittedly, the watchlist is ugly and requires some knowledge to use anything beyond the obvious. However, the only advantage that Following offers is that you don't have to know a space name to find it on the list. That could be fixed on watchlist. In exchange for that minor benefit, wikia has removed everything important about using a watchlist: what has recently changed, easy-access to comparisons, previous history, and filtering. They have also removed the most obvious social feature: who made the most recent change (and how often has it been changed since you last looked). Plus, following is ugly, too. Looks like a whiteboard after a recent brainstorming meeting run by an ineffective manager. &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 16:18, July 2, 2010 (UTC)

Auto search PvX?
So, I have a Shortcut that searches Google for builds that include a particular skill, e.g. |+%22this+to+be+an+excellent+build%22)+-%22This+build+has+been+archived+as%22&btnG=Search&as_qdr=all&lr=&as_filetype= using Cry of Pain.

Is there a way (.js, I presume) to create a shortcut that would:
 * determine if the reader is on a skill page of GWiki or GWW
 * If yes, run the search above substituting the relevant skill's name (opening a new window or tab, per browser prefs)
 * If no, Bork Bork Bork.

I would like to have something like this for my sidebar. Thanks! (PS to the Peanut Gallery: Pretend as if you agree it is useful to search PvX for builds. I don't often use the builds, but I do find interesting synergies, talk about useless combos, or note that there are few builds using the skill. I find I learn something helpful about 75% of the time.) &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 17:50, July 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I tried something like it, but it only works on the monobook sidebar, as the monaco sidebar is cached. See User:M.mendel/Monaco-sidebar and Template:PvxBuild. If my sidebar idea was outfitted with a marker (XXXXX would probably suffice, or FULLPAGENAMEE), then Javascript could simply substitute the proper pagename when the page loads if your link was already in the sidebar. This hack would also enable other neat stuff, but I'm not really interested in taking it that far.
 * It might be worth a try to formulate a search that works on PvXwiki directly (instead of using google); and it might also be worth a try to get this link added to our skill infobox, maybe indicated by a small PvXwiki logo in some corner. -- ◄mendel► 18:45, July 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * Cool. That gives me some stuff to start with. Thanks


 * Re: etc:
 * I've tried using PvX search, and it doesn't filter well, so I find it useless. However, maybe it's worth working with Karate Jesus to improve that. (I keep thinking to drop him a line.) Meantime, the Google search does the trick (although I should probably find some way to filter in/out specialized team builds).
 * I like the idea of enabling whatever (we come up with) from GWiki; we could add a note to each skill page,, which would say something like, "Find builds using rated by PvX as Good/Excellent."
 * I'll check out your links and see how far I can take it.
 * Thanks again. &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 19:02, July 9, 2010 (UTC)

The Battle for Lion's Arch info
If you going to edit the page please don't just cut out info. The page came from the offical wiki and it's the most detailed lay out for the mission. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Josh5813 (contribs).


 * Answered on Josh's talkpage. -- ◄mendel► 00:28, July 12, 2010 (UTC)

GW:SIGN
Please ensure your sig links to either your userpage or your talk page. Thanks --  Random Time  20:51, July 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Argh. Ty. Clobbered my signature a few days ago without noticing, and failed fixing it. -- ◄mendel► 20:54, July 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * FYI some of us had our sigs clobbered by wikia; I lost about half the code in the box (possibly it reverted to a previous saved version that didn't have all the code). &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 21:03, July 16, 2010 (UTC)

Ishy
As usual I'm saying something when it's not my place to do so. Oh well.

Code which works makes the Wiki work. While nice to have, the Wiki does not need the absolute best, so long as the code gets the job done.

I'm certainly not the only one around here who likes having Ishy around (who doesn't?) and if he's working on something with his very extensive knowledge of ~everything and not breaking shit, please oh please oh please leave him to it. Sometimes different code which does the same thing a different way isn't worth conflict and if Ishy leaves because you simply must continue to disagree with his methods the Wiki will have lost a true treasure. Because of you. A F K When Needed 12:44, July 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * the Wiki does not need the absolute best -- and it won't have it, there is no such absolute.
 * likes having Ishy around -- everyone does, I think
 * leave him to it -- that's not how wikis are supposed to work; they're about building on each other's work
 * isn't worth conflict -- I agree, but I didn't predict this conflict, nor did I aim to cause it
 * must continue to disagree -- so, once Dr Ishmael does something, I must either praise it or shut up? Or is that not what you're asking me to do?
 * Your Wiki once lost a true treasure because you wouldn't apologize for anything. Was that worth it? And you got a lot more chances to do so than I got with Dr Ishmael, though I'm hoping he'll reconsider when he calms down.
 * I do appreciate your theory that wiki consensus is best achieved by everyone else shutting the heck up, but somehow it doesn't work for me. GW:YAV. -- ◄mendel► 13:01, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * The theory is that discussions you have with him are detrimental to the wiki and community. It's not about "shutting the heck up" it's about you allowing him to work in peace, without always having another way of doing things. If both ways work, it really doesn't matter all that much which is used. I find it hard to believe that you didn't forsee at least a chance that you pointing out any imperfections you could see, or think you could, with his work would not have a negative impact.
 * He doesn't go through your contributions for things you could've handled differently, I really fail to see why you feel the need to do so to him. Are you really that convinced he's incompetant at dealing with things on a wiki, or can you simply not help yourself? A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 13:34, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Nothing what you say or imply about me in your statement is true. Please stop trolling me, intentional or not. -- ◄mendel► 19:47, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm quite sure that "discussions you have with him are detrimental to the wiki and community" is true and accurate, so dismissing it as trolling is a bit much. You may also have noticed I'm not the only one who feels that your criticisms of him and his actions can have a negative impact. There is a very real issue at hand and if you choose to ignore the concerns of myself and others as "afk trolling" then you risk doing a great deal of damage, intentional or not. A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 21:20, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Point me to one or two detriments "to the wiki and community", please. -- ◄mendel► 23:02, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1 or [ 2] &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 23:41, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1 does not appear to be a detriment to the wiki to me. If you think it is, you should RfA me.
 * Re: 2, you haven't actually left, so the detriment threatened, but hasn't happened (thankfully).
 * If we don't address our differences, one of us will go, that much seems clear to me. I did go for some weeks. Interaction is the only way we can address them, so we're going to need to break a few eggs to make this omelette, probably. Of course the conflict itself is detrimental, but it's not the discussions that are. -- ◄mendel► 00:08, July 21, 2010 (UTC)

Happy B-Day Gregor
Gratz with Gregor Johann Mendel's B-day :P --   † F1 ©  Talk  18:20, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Who's that? You should buy him a beer. RoseOfKali 20:04, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Gregor found out that peas can have sex, or something like that. -- ◄mendel► 20:13, July 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hap pea birthday.--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir 21:05, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Have a good one --  Random Time  21:50, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

you arrogant twat
Mendel, look me straight in the eye. I mean this from the bottom of my heart... GO FUCK YOURSELF (4:30 – 6:10, I wish there was a clip of just that bit). This is not "your" wiki. And there was no fucking reason to go and re-code the progress bar template and immediately implement your version. Unless you were deliberately trying to tick me off. Which you succeeded at quite well.

So I repeat: go fuck yourself. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 12:52, July 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * I know it's not my wiki. That's why I used these "quotation marks".
 * Yes, there was a fucking reason to go and recode Template:progress bar, thanks for asking. I wanted it to show a 100% full bar when min=current=max, because it saved me some special case code with the allegiance rank template. Other than that, it works just as before, so whyever would I not recode it? If you think it's a bad edit, just revert it and we'll talk about it. -- ◄mendel► 15:20, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

i'm an arrogant twat, too
I'm sorry for being an ass last week. Can we put all that behind us and actually work on something? Like SMW? &mdash;Dr Ishmael 03:02, August 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * I really would appreciate your input on SMW. If you're too busy IRL, please say something, so I don't think you're blowing me off again.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 03:09, August 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * I was away for a few days, sorry.
 * I'd help you if I had the time, which right now I don't (and there are some other on-wiki projects that I want to finish first).
 * Side note: I don't hold with the "I insulted myself, now we're even" school; that does nothing for me because it explains very little. FWIW, I accept your apology. -- ◄mendel► 19:41, August 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * "I insulted myself, now we're even"? What?  That... that's.... that is so... GAH, that one phrase has made me so mad I can't even think of a word for it.  I was NOT insulting myself, I was ADMITTING something about myself that I thought would go along well with my apology.  Thanks for ruining it.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 19:56, August 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. -- ◄mendel► 20:39, August 8, 2010 (UTC) (Should've read "I did it to you, now I'm doing it to me, so we're even", but I take your word for it you didn't mean it the way it appeared to me.) -- ◄mendel► 20:45, August 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Christ on a cracker, will you two just stop already? Jink  20:54, August 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Christ on a cracker? rofl. Good point though. [[Image:EM Signature.jpg]] ***EAGLEMUT***   T  A  L K 21:05, August 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Jink, I doubt it's going to work that way. It's either me giving Dr Ishmael nothing but positive feedback about what he's doing (the "friendly USAnian" kind of way) and not adressing him otherwise (which probably precludes working him on any sort of project), or typing up the notes I made to myself two weeks ago which, since it's not the former, is going to create more anger but hopefully end up with a working relationship when all is said and done. -- ◄mendel► 08:07, August 9, 2010 (UTC) & 08:09, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * In my book, that WOULD be stopping it. Jink  12:51, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I consider one option "throwing the towel" and the other "pushing through". Which is the one you consider us two stopping? Both, or just the first? Neither will avoid drama. -- ◄mendel► 13:41, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Both. Or you film a video of yourself playing air guitar to "Dueling Banjos" as you ride on a camel through Berlin. Jink  13:54, August 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * What "other on-wiki projects" are you referring to? And could you please give me some feedback on what I've done so far?  I haven't received any feedback from anyone yet, which is really frustrating, because I'm really excited about this now, but I'm afraid of pushing ahead too quickly before incorporating feedback to refine the solution (do it right now rather than fix it later).  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 19:56, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I want to make a page to focus the extension discussion; I want to finish the title templates project with some developments I've already charted in my mind; there are some different approaches to table sums I'd like to try out; to get into SMW would certainly take me several hours and result in some Zaishen Quest stuff, and I just don't have the time to get that informed right now so that I can give you meaningful feedback. And it seems writing up my recent pencilled notes on our propensity to erupt into conflict has also become a priority. -- ◄mendel► 21:12, August 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * What is there to discuss about the extension? I think it's useful, you think it's worthless.  I don't see any way we can reach common ground on that.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 21:18, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

SMW
header inserted, indents reset -- ◄mendel► 23:03, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

From what I can see about SMW, it looks like it does the same thing as (currently) dpl does in pulling out parameters from used templates. Or at least that's how it's currently used in the, and how I would see it used in the future (parameters get assigned to the properties). --JonTheMon 21:45, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

(edit) Oh, and what things do you want looked at specifically, Ish? --JonTheMon 21:48, August 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * SMW and DPL are indeed similar, but they differ somewhat on how the queries can be built, with SMW generally being more flexible. The tradeoff is that SMW takes more work to setup, since you have to convert your templates to be SMW-aware, whereas DPL can just use the templates as they already exist.  (SMW properties don't have to be set within templates, that's just the easiest way of making sure they are implemented consistently across a group of articles.)  Also, SMW has a very useful feature where you can define exactly which values or types of values can be given to a property (and by extension, the template parameter that sets that property), and any validation errors will be shown immediately (cf. Property:Campaign).
 * What I'd like feedback on:
 * The look of the thing: both Template:TravelerInfo and Template:TrophyInfo/Template:ItemInfo could probably use some fine-tuning visually, but I'm not good with that stuff.
 * Specifically on ItemInfo, I'd like opinions on the ordering of the various fields. I used the same order that GWW does, and some of it just feels wrong, but again I'm not sure how to fix it.
 * The vocabulary: the names of SMW properties are supposed to have a "natural language" feel. I realize that "natural" is subjective, so gathering multiple opinions on this would be very helpful.  Special:Properties lists the properties already in use; the documentation for ItemInfo lists all the properties I'm proposing in relation to items.
 * And I guess just an overall opinion on whether this is actually a useful idea or not. Now that I've finally taken the time to learn about SMW, I think it's wonderful - I really wish I'd done so back when PanSola first suggested it two years ago - but the hard part now is going to be retrofitting it into our 18k articles.  I'm willing to do the busy work if other people are willing to help plan it out.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 22:36, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Some SMW info is turned off with .css, adding

.smwfact { display:block; }
 * to your .css is probably a good idea. This should make a factbox show up on articles that use SMW-ified templates.
 * If I wanted to become an SMW expert, I'd look at how other wikis did it (e.g. vsk.wikia.com ). It might also be a good idea to write down what we aim to achieve with this. Both is not fun, though. -- ◄mendel► 23:03, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Is it possible to set SMW properties without having that text become a link? --JonTheMon 13:12, August 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, SMW has a #set: parser function to do this. I use it in both TravelerInfo and ItemInfo to set Traveler index and plural, respectively.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 13:36, August 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, I was wondering about the stackable parameter in the ItemInfobox, since it currently links to no --JonTheMon 14:29, August 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hey, that's correct! There's no link ;-)


 * More seriously: @Ish: I'll take a look this week at TravInf & Troph/Item Inf templates and give you some feedback. Also: I'm happy to put together a project page if you hum a few bars. (Will something like this do? (1) build v0.8 templates + switches to distinguish new vs old articles; (2) determine which types of articles to review/modify; (3) test out on subset of articles; modify accordingly; (4) instruct bots; test bots; (5) run bots; (6) validate & spot check articles; (7) repeat for next subset of articles.)


 * "Both is not fun." I wonder. It's not fun learning radial & Cartesian coordinate systems, but the first works better for mapping your local community while the second makes orbital mechanics much simpler. It's rare that a single tool is versatile enough to handle all issues gracefully. It might be worth putting together a "style guide" that outlines when to use one vs the other. (Arguably, discussion of which might indicate that we use one tool 99.9% of the time or more.) &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 15:14, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * "Both is not fun." -- I meant, neither task is fun. Your project page suggestion is concerned with the way, not with the destination. -- ◄mendel► 16:36, August 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * @Jon: Oh, I see what you're talking about now - not how to hide a property altogether, but how to display a property as simple text without a link (guess I didn't read your first comment completely). By default, all properties are of Type:Page, which assumes that the values of that property are article titles and thus automatically displays them as links.  To change this behavior, you have to set the property's type to something else - cf. Property:Plural (Type:String) and Property:Merchant value (Type:Number).  Stackability and profitability would be a different type, Type:Boolean, which restricts the property to yes/no values and can be displayed using special symbols or even images.
 * @Ernie: That would indeed be helpful. (I've never aspired to a managerial position, and for good reason.)  A more appropriate first step, though, would be to brainstorm and document which broad categories of articles we want to use this on, and which properties we want to use for each category.  We could start with what PanSola had already written up at SemanticMediaWiki for locations, skills, and creatures, adding in my initial ideas about items.  It might be a good idea to move this discussion over there, as well.  P.S. I think you've got your first/second backwards: using Cartesian coordinates for orbital calculations is a nightmare. :P  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 17:07, August 10, 2010 (UTC)

E-books
If you read books, and use Firefox, install the EPUBreader plugin. It's [C]atalog already contain ssections with lots of free books. Then go to the Baen Books free library and download Harald - just click on "EPUB/Nook/Stanza Format" and then [S]ave the book to your harddisk. Read and enjoy (the book is better than the first chapter)! Technical note: An .epub file is a zip archive with .html chapters and some meta-information in it. -- ◄mendel► 20:38, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

Job queue?
Hey, I've been tracking the job queue - and it doesn't seem to be getting any shorter. I thought I'd ask your advice here before contacting Wikia about the issue --  Random Time  13:54, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

New Style Optional
Cool. -Volatile Dweevil &mdash;This is a comment posted by Volatile Dweevil (Respond, Please!)
 * Oh, excellent - do you have a link about that? --  Random Time  21:25, August 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * ; ; . So, no, there's no word on whether the new style is optional. Dweevil's wiki actually could move to independent hosting in a heartbeat because they have a very nifty custom monobook, but all those wikis who spent a lot of effort into making their Monaco look nice are pretty much screwed, I think, because if course there's no MediaWiki install package that comes with that. -- ◄mendel► 22:15, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

< Gr8 (~fun)
Old fogey columnist's TXTspk article &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 14:50, August 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * What exactly is the lingo he's using? (And I bet he made it more readable than it should've been.) I'm also o.O @ "thumb-write+speak": downloadmp3indonesia.net ? -- ◄mendel► 16:52, August 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Text-speak, as in those written messages sent by phone. People use far more shorthand for texting because a phone numberpad isn't a really great keyboard. --Macros 17:49, August 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * There's actually a whole series of books written in text-speak aka thumbwrite aka... many others. It's written for teens, so he might not have noticed (I think his grandkids are still too young, his daughters too old.) &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 19:44, August 24, 2010 (UTC)

"So my BFF M@hue sed, Jon, u shold really write a col in thumb-write speak, because AFAIK th@'s never ben done. So I told M@hue, IMNSHO, that might not be so gr8. 1St, it might be hard 2 reed with the acros, so it might look like a typographical jungle & thereby be HOTE. & also, I sed, I don't know all th@ stuff b-cuz I am not a thumb typist." -- characters.

"So my best friend Matthew said, Jon, you shold really write a column in thumb-write speak, because as far as I know that's never been done. So I told Matthew, in my not so humble opinion, that might not be so great. First, it might be hard to read with the acronyms, so it might look like a typographical jungle and thereby be "HOTE". And also, I said, I don't know all that stuff because I am not a thumb typist." -- characters. 17% savings.

Actually, some of these acronyms (IMHO, AFAIK etc.) were in use on Usenet before mobile phones became widespread. -- ◄mendel► 19:56, August 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * 'HOTE' = 'hard on the eyes'. The only ones I couldn't figure out were 'CLM' and 'P2C2E'.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 20:30, August 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * "Procedure too complex to explain". Also, I like "Before the Flood" by BD&TB. -- ◄mendel► 20:49, August 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * @FYI Lots (nearly all) of thumb-write terms existed when ppls were using 128baud modems and trying to "text" each other messages. The phones in those days were the size of carry-on luggage (not the size that you use, the size that all those rude ppls on the plane decided would fit just fine) (ok, so they were time-shared computers, not phones, but you needed a phoneline to make them talk to each other). Anything that didn't exist in BBS days pretty much started in early IRC. A lot of the gaming terms came from MUDs. Sure, there's some new stuff: pwn'd, @User, and so on. The big difference is that, these days, it's cool if you know this stuff. Those days: you were super geek if you did, and sometimes not even nerds respected you for it. &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 21:06, August 24, 2010 (UTC)

Guilded Age
Friendship doesn't mean we'll always agree. But we don't have to see eye to eye to stand shoulder to shoulder. -- ◄mendel► 19:35, August 27, 2010 (UTC)

Meanwhile, in Hawaii...
--Łô√ë îğá†ħŕášħ is hosting a Card Creation Contest! 02:19, August 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Seen it (yes, I got the DVD). I agree with Ursula Le Guin that it's not as good as the novels: it mangles the plot lines, but stays true to the universe (mostly, the realm of the dead is very different) and gets a fair amount of metaphysical depth in it. I agree with Hayao Miyazaki in that it's not as memorable as a movie as I expect Studio Ghibli productions to be. The movie is ok; the book is even better; and neither will spoil the plot of the other. :)
 * Some of the Tv Tropes listed seem contrived:
 * All There In The Manual — Nonetheless, among other things, to know what Arren's shadow is -- except Arren's shadow in the movie is completely different from Ged's shadow in the book. Arren's shadow is not explained in the book! It is somewhat mystical in the movie, but its nature is made quite clear.
 * Broken Bird: Her deep experience and emotional detachment almost always gives the impression of competence -- not Therru in the movie
 * Climbing Climax: He starts to climb. This would clearly lead to his getting trapped at the top -- note that the villain can fly
 * Color Coded Patrician: Arren's father wears the same colors; this is logical since they are, in fact, royalty; later, Arren exchanges this for a more mundane garment. Thus, he's wearing purple for a compelling reason and not to "color-code" himself.
 * Deus ex machina: ... is resolved by an event never foreshadowed or set up: in the book, the event is foreshadowed various times through mention of the songs; the movie does foreshadow dragons, with the lore right in the introduction; I don't recall whether there's more.
 * Does This Remind You Of Anything -- if it's enough to find some phallic object, the trope is broken
 * Dude Looks Like A Lady — Cob. -- Cob is voiced by a woman. As far as I recall, in the movie Cob is a lady, not a dude. That's because the magician is a shapeshifter.
 * Horse of a different color: ... different forms of animal life than our world -- the movie has actual llamas, animals that are being ridden on our world. The beasts that the soldiers ride, though, seem a cross between horses and oxen (they handle like horses, but have bodyies and horns like steer), so they'd fit the trope.
 * I Know Your True Name: -- well, of course the book's magic is founded on that; the trope states As a rule, objects do not have true names, but in EarthSea, they do; there is a "true language" that names things as they are. So the book and the movie really transcend the trope.
 * Nightmare Fuel: not intended to be scary -- everything related to death - Arren's dreams of being in the other country, too - are actually intentionally scary.
 * Not Good with People: they have a special relationship with some non-human being on a level other humans can only dream of -- I don't see that in Therru. She's distrustful of people because of the way people have treated her all her life, which is shown clearly in the movie. Other than that, her behaviour towards adults seems normal for her age.
 * Oedipus Complex — Introduced then abandoned in the first 10 minutes: -- clear evidence that whoever wrote this has not understood the film. The killing of his father creates Arren's internal conflict, which fuels the movie and is resolved only at the end.
 * Our Dragons Are Different: - again, whoever claimed this for EarthSea has misunderstood why: they act as pretty traditional dragons; what sets them really apart from other fictional dragons is their origin, and it's very relevant to the plot!
 * Plucky Girl: This character exhibits a strong sense of optimism, a kind of sunny, unassailable spirit -- and labelling Therru as "borken bird" at the same time? Hah! (She's neither.)
 * The Quiet One: He just rarely talks, so anything he does say carries extra weight -- nope. Just not true of Arren. Watch the movie, will you?
 * The Reveal — When we learn that Arren is the one who stabbed the king -- except it is shown at the start of the film? With the king pronouncing Arren's name? How can that change the nature of the plot? It founds the plot!
 * Saharan Shipwreck — Opening scenes -- actually, the opening scene has a ship on the ocean; the shipwreck scene is at 0:07:45 - 0:08:30, when the plot starts in earnest. This is very much a trope, as the significance of the ships is never made clear (evil magic?), so they're probably just there to look cool omninous.
 * Scenery Porn: is the emphasis on luscious backgrounds with great detail, lovely lighting or both -- "emphasis"?
 * Shadow Archetype — Arren's shadow is rather confusingly characterised -- if only the editor had actually read the trope: Note that in Jungian psychology, the Shadow Archetype includes positive as well as negative things, anything suppressed or denied in the personality. That's Arren's shadow.
 * Shrinking Violet — Both Arren and Therru show aspects of this -- Therru is definitely one; Arren isn't.
 * They Wasted A Perfectly Good Plot — Various plot elements—such as slavery—are introduced but never touched upon in detail again -- actually, "slavery" is not a plot element, but a world detail. Complaining about this being wasted is akin to complaining that we're never shown how the riding animals are bred, or how they bury Arren's father.
 * Took A Level In Badass — Whenever Arren uses the sword -- at the beginning of the movie, Arren kills his father with a dagger. That pretty much sets up his level of badass, and his subsequent level of bravado or skill is in keeping with that.
 * Tranquil Fury -- what movie was the editor watching? It's not in there.
 * What happened to the mouse: occurs when a minor character, action, or very minor plotline is suddenly dropped -- the example cited is not minorm and not dropped.
 * Is there a meta-trope about editors adding as many tropes as they can to construct a however flimsy link to a movie's TVtropes page? -- ◄mendel► 10:24, August 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes.Many, many, MANY reasons --Łô√ë [[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg|Roar.]]îğá†ħŕášħ is hosting a Card Creation Contest! 14:04, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

Note to self about behavioural ads
-- ◄mendel► 20:06, August 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * http://WSJ.com/WTK
 * "Google also plans to go head-to-head with Facebook's "Like" button—a tiny tool on many websites that lets people tell friends they "like" something. Each click gives Facebook valuable, personal data about people's interests."
 * Big Brother is watching you.... or google or facebook, or the IRS. ;-) Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 17:15, September 3, 2010 (UTC)

Dungeon chest contents - opting out
FYI I'm not planning on offering my thoughts on current design or implementation. I've decided that I'm happy that we are standardizing the presentation of reward data, which will make it easier for people to find it and compare across dungeons. I've now invested more time than I planned on a quick-with-big-rewards mini-project. Whatever we end up with is going to be far better than what we had (and so what if I don't love all the details).

Instead, I think I can be more effective by catalyzing other such changes (from my already long laundry list). In other words, this is actually a very good outcome IMO. &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 16:34, September 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * Ah, ok. I detected some opinion in favor of the colorful table version, and the decision would've had some impact on how we style similar stuff in the future, so I'm slightly disappointed that it seems we're not going to find that out now. On the whole, you're probably right, though. :) -- ◄mendel► 16:44, September 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * Nothing is stopping someone else from presenting a more colorful version. &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 16:01, September 7, 2010 (UTC)

Cold Turkey

 * For some reason, the most vocal Christians among us never mention the Beatitudes. But, often with tears in their eyes, they demand that the Ten Commandments be posted in public buildings. And of course that’s Moses, not Jesus. I haven’t heard one of them demand that the Sermon on the Mount, the Beatitudes, be posted anywhere.
 * "Blessed are the merciful" in a courtroom? "Blessed are the peacemakers" in the Pentagon? Give me a break!
 * Kurt Vonnegut (2004)


 * Oh? I thought the Pentagon always blessed the peacekeepers. &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 21:00, September 7, 2010 (UTC)

Because I'm biased....
I try to stay out of the disagreements you and my husband have. But your comment about him here is uncalled for in my opinion. Jink 15:00, September 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * Why? I quoted his revert edit summary verbatim (I edited out some words that only served to express his feeling more strongly); he did revert the video link; and I thought the comment meant that Dr Ishmael meant that the video was not needed because it was too easy to do because the farm is too easy (is that not what he meant to say?). So you object to my use of the word "even", which expresses the sentiment that of the three people involved in this convo (Richy, myself, and, by reference, Dr Ishmael) he is the one with most extreme view in the matter, which seems to me less of a comment than stating the obvious. I find my tone less agressive than the one Ishy uses in his edit summary towards Richy m. -- ◄mendel► 17:41, September 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * It may be less "aggressive," but it isn't neutral either since, given the prior antagonism between the two of you and your position as admin/bureaucrat, it sounds as if you're taking Richy's side and making Ish the "bad guy" in a nice, polite manner. Jink 17:53, September 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't see that there was any reason to even mention me by name in the first place. &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 17:59, September 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * Your comment did come across as condescending towards Ishy. I do recognize that you might have wanted to bolster the morale of Richy, but doing it at the expense of another user doesn't sit well. A "this is the way things happen around here"-type explanation would have been better and more complete. --JonTheMon 18:38, September 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * In the interest of balance, I will say that Ishy was a little ragey in the edit comment, but often times that area is less inhibited. --JonTheMon 19:09, September 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * The reason to mention you by name, Dr Ishmael, was that you had the most encompassing revert reason, and I wished to quote it without making your point my own. Attributing this quote requires that your name be mentioned, and I don't see what's wrong about it; it's a matter of public record, after all.
 * I hate it when criticism of what I've written makes do without quotes or without pointing out exactly what is wrong, leaving me to guess what you all might mean; if I did what I did on purpose, I'd know, but since I don't, I don't. It conveys the impression to me that Dr Ishmael is somehow untouchable, and that what he does on the wiki best remain uncommented unless it can be praised, or wikidrama or worse is to result. This state of affairs is highly frustrating to me. -- ◄mendel► 21:47, September 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * afaik, quoting ishy was ok, since that is a set fact. It was more the latter part of your comment that gave me the condescending impression. --JonTheMon 21:59, September 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * Meh, yeah, I wasn't specific enough before - that part was acceptable. Still, I wasn't the only, nor even the first,  person to revert the video.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 22:06, September 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * The reason to mention you by name, Dr Ishmael, was that you had the most encompassing revert reason. It is trivial to address TEF's complaint, but doing that wouldn't have taken care of yours. TEF said (paraphrased), "please link this better", and you said, "this is useless". Anyway, I'm not having a private convo with Richy, so feel free to point that out to him, including a 1RV warning if need be. -- ◄mendel► 22:28, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

Now we've got that cleared up, how does my "position as admin/bureaucrat" (Jink, above) even come into it? Both Dr Ishmael and myself were acting as editors, no admin actions were involved. (I had a similar feeling when reading [ this].) -- ◄mendel► no admin 22:33, September 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Really? You really don't see how making passive-aggressive comments is inappropriate as an admin?  (And don't think I'm letting Ish get off easy just because I'm not berating him on the wiki.)  Well, if that's the case, then I'll just go on my way.  Jink  14:58, September 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Here's the thing: it's a fantasy that your (collective plural) actions when you contribute won't be construed within the context of your position(s). The only way to be reasonably sure that reasonable ppl will see them as simple edits is if you take the time to say so (and then, naturally, the skeptical among us will still look for clues as to what you really meant).


 * In other words, Mendel/Ishy/etc have to be more cognizant of the impact of their posts than say Rose of Kali or I do. (And we have to more careful than less frequent contributors, since longevity and volume-of-contribs convey certain impressions as well.) Now, this isn't an an issue most of the time. However, whenever you (collective plural) choose to comment on someone else's actions (directly or indirectly by quoting them), the rest of us cannot help but wonder how much of that is regular editor and how much in your official role. And, we also have to wonder how others will view those actions, especially if they are unfamiliar with this wiki's pluralistic policies. &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 16:08, September 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Once upon a time a man whose ax was missing suspected his neighbor's son. The boy walked like a thief, looked like a thief, and spoke like a thief.  But the man found his ax while digging in the valley, and the next time he saw his neighbor's son, the boy walked, looked, and spoke like any other child. (Lao-tzu)
 * What advice would you give that boy? -- ◄mendel► 00:12, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * To discuss things with the man who suspected him.
 * The 'e' at the end, for one. 109.78.222.213 19:38, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's an acceptable variation - and fits the context of the quote --  Random Time  19:46, September 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * Erm, what does your parable have to do with anything written above it? People perceive posts by admins differently, regardless of whether there's any merit to that perception. Are you disagreeing with that idea?


 * The closest parallel in your scenario would be if the respected school marm had heard the man-without-the-ax mention his suspicions to her. She should know better than to repeat those ideas aloud to others without recognizing that her opinion is held in different esteem from the rest of the village. So man-w/o-ax gets to say whatever he wants, but school marm doesn't &mdash; not b/c she is more likely to tell the truth, but b/c people think that she is. &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 02:32, September 27, 2010 (UTC)

Re: Carbon
When I was setting that a day or two ago, I didn't realize that the section in the preferences was for the whole wiki. I just noticed today that it said admin options. I was not trying to screw up the settings for the whole wiki. I do thank you for the css code though. I couldn't figure out for the life of me how to set that up. --   Isk8   (T/C) 00:48, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Let me guess, you've been spending time on wikis that favor the "disjointed" discussion style... ;) -- ◄mendel► 09:15, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually been spending my time on lotro, so haven't done much wiki'ing lately. I need to spend more time on here just to remember some coding again. :D -- [[Image:Isk8.png]]   Isk8   (T/C) 19:56, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * LOTRO? Perhaps it's just me, but I find that way to hack and slash for me. Got bored. Defiantly not as good as EVE online --  Random Time  00:34, September 26, 2010 (UTC)

Template:Small
Should be subst:? --  Random Time  11:15, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * My idea was to keep the article source readable, or I'd have added the style by hand. Unlike a talkpage comment, we may want to edit it again. -- ◄mendel► 12:12, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Fair enough --  Random Time  15:43, September 26, 2010 (UTC)

CSS
Thanks for changing the Toolbar, Mendel. Please can you also replace the formatting of the top Wikia bar and the footer? That's a change to the view of the interface that's against the ToU. We especially want users to see the actual look as the first release starts -- it's important that we see how the actual skin works large-scale, rather than this adapted version of it. Many thanks -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 23:47, October 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sannse, I have been asking about this on your talk specifically because the TOS is not clear on what exactly I am allowed to change. Does this answer mean, nothing outside article space whatsoever? -- ◄mendel► 00:09, October 5, 2010 (UTC)

New wiki
You can find it here: What would be a good next step? Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 11:23, October 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, the best step is to find something you want to achieve. If nothing comes to mind, you could play around with the features mentioned on mw:help:Templates. MOve on to other pages on that wiki from there. -- ◄mendel► 12:43, October 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Done with that page now, and it was pretty hard! Also, I stole the GTFO template layout from that page. I have nowhere near that kinda skill yet. (I can't even seem to change the colour, black doesn't work, nor does red (any help?))
 * The MyWelcome! Template has been copied from the general Welcome! template, but I did that first. I have learned some already! Yay!
 * You can see the results on my talkpage. The bottom most 2 of the templates are done/correct.
 * Gonna have to do something usefull now (read: prep my biology practicum, bleh), but I'll be back on this tonight. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 15:29, October 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Great. See Help:color for color names. If you want help with something that doesn't work, save a revision where it doesn't so that I can look at what went wrong (maybe use an edit summary describing what goes wrong). You can then undo it to have a working version, and I can see on the old revision what you may have overlooked (e.g. why black didn't work for you). -- ◄mendel► 18:25, October 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * The colour trick was simple. I removed the solid part too. Mine said black, instead of solid black. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 20:28, October 5, 2010 (UTC)

Your details
Just noticed, but you're listed in anything except for "bureacrats" on the Administrator information page. Not in (semi/in-)active, and no detailed information. Is there any particular reason (if you want to share it) or is it just an oversight?--El_Nazgir 14:34, October 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * That's because I stopped being an admin in April, and Felix temporarily re-edminned me 5 days ago so I could experiment with the New Look since I seem to be one of the select few (except Ariyen and maybe Balistic) who have access to it at the moment and are used to skin work. I assume I'll be de-adminned again later ths week, when Oasis becomes optional for everyone. My old contact info didn't say that much. -- ◄mendel► 18:17, October 5, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you!
As AFK pointed out, nobody has thanked you yet for all your trouble and time. As I support the move, I would like the thank you. Thank you!one1 Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 16:53, October 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * We ain't moved yet! The real work is about to begin (and there goes my vacation). -- ◄mendel► 20:27, October 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the time you've spent on the move issue. A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K is pro-AWA! 23:57, October 7, 2010 (UTC)

Oasis is a good thing
I submit that it is not. Everything that Oasis leads you to believe is wrong and geared to Wikia's vision of a community; it doesn't fit with working communities.
 * Wiki activity lacks display of Project: namespace and any other namespace, including user talk. You can't catch vandals with it, and it strongly reminds me of the "community" on Wikianswers that doesn't use these types of pages either.
 * MyTools is just bad interface, the list is completely unstructured, and you can't count on users being shown the "Good ones".
 * "Photo attribution" that doesn't really give teh creator credit makes open source seem like "upload what you want, no matter where you got it from".
 * Blog comments and article comments are impossible to keep track of unless you keep rereading your blog. They don't appear in any watchlist, and you can't see them in context from RC.
 * Don't get me started on the RTE.
 * The skin is geared more towards readers than editors, and I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't very effective in turning readers into editors. It may be effective in getting more people to leave comments, but whether that translates into more community participation (and more signups) remains to be seen.
 * Wikia will not be able to leverage any people moving trans-wiki well until it complete rethinks its "community" central policies.
 * In a nutshell, the skin is made for the "casual user". Casual users don't make wikis.
 * People report eye problems because the font size is so small.

Feel free to point out that I'm just being pessimistic. :-P -- ◄mendel► 21:13, October 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree. You should see the font that the name is in. It is horrible! Even the background does not fit a wiki. [[File:User Ariyen sig icon.gif]]riyen 22:20, October 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Font and background can be configured, though admittedly what you're seeing comes with the theme designer. -- ◄mendel► 06:19, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)
 * Wikia isn't about wikis anymore, so I'm trying not to measure their execution against my criteria. We're not the target audience. So, although I think your description of the tool set is mostly accurate, I think Wikia is indeed headed towards casual communities, or those dedicated around a single, narrow and short-term goal (e.g. family reunion). To make this happen, Wikia needs to standardize and simplify their interface and setup tools of little use to us. Even given this, would you or I advise them to do it this manner? Probably not.


 * Well see some interesting test cases over the next few months: Tardis (Doctor Who Wikia) is not moving (seems more trouble to them in the long run) and we'll see if they can generate enough smaller sites (in fact, maybe that's what they were seeing the last 12 months &mdash; more eyeballs at micro wikis).


 * (Ohai, Ariyen: how are you?) &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 23:04, October 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Grant it, this may benefit the wikis like Farmville and Alice in Wonderland. However, I strongly do not feel this will benefit big wikis like this one. Not when a lot of hard work will or may be messed up when Oasis takes over. I have seen my userpage looked messed up in Oasis as well as a few more pages and I don't see a lot of benefits at all. I don't see quite so many wikis coming here either for gaming. [[File:User Ariyen sig icon.gif]]riyen 02:45, October 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree w/you Ariyen: this is bad for gaming wikis of any size. But, I really don't think Wikia is about wikis anymore. They might even be glad to see the whiners and whingers like us go, leaving the site filled with a higher percentage of groups that get something out of the new direction. &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 02:53, October 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's been mentioned that they might be attempting to emulate geocities. ;-P (In fact, I believe "wikicities" was their original name, and that's why we do w:c: for interwiki links.) -- ◄mendel► 06:19, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

I've got a new theory about why Wikia introduced the floating toolbar. (The old theory is that they copied it off mine but did it wrong.) They found out that the fixed width and wide sidebar made pages so long that serious scrolling up was required to get to the page toolbar. (It still begs the question why they only put half of the useful stuff in it.) -- ◄mendel► 06:52, October 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Floating seems cool, so they made the toolbar floating. (Your version is somewhat more plausible from a what-purpose-does-it-serve storyline; mine fits more of the design sessions I've sat in.) As for why they only put some stuff in it, again, I'm trying to look at it from the viewpoint of what their goals are. Simple is first on their agenda...and sometimes, they get so carried away with that they usefulness is lost. I think Following is an example of that. It looks friendlier than the watchlist, but that's b/c they took everything out of WL that made it such a great tool for us. But reviewing their rollout of same (and reading their blogs), one definitely gets the impression that they thought it was the greatest thing since CSS. &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 08:07, October 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Mmmmh-hmmm. I'm a bit loath to explain these features by incompetence. -- ◄mendel► 13:39, October 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * There's the old saying that's true (as well as witty) that the camel is a horse that was designed by a committee . That's not incompetence, that's losing sight of the original goal. Also, the camel, not the horse, is best suited, of course, for the course that's designed for a land in the sand. Which has been my central point about Oasis: it's not meant to be helpful for sites like GWiki (and certainly not for PvX).


 * A possible good Guild Wars use for the new Wikia might be for organizing a multi-guild alliance. It covers their modest information sharing needs (favorite farms, teams, special events), sharing progress (blogs), chats (forums), and so on. So, bad for GWiki, but perhaps great for a specific guild...or 1000 guilds. &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 15:30, October 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * A good thing.
 * Please define thing.
 * A good option for other types of community / project? Sure, options are good.
 * A good thing to force on wikis which weren't intended to provice such a service (namely all existing Wikia wikis)? Hell no.
 * Something to bear in mind is people don't always state exactly what they mean. While people are talking about how good the new skin is, they are doing so in context of Wikis designed mostly to be a single topic based Wikipedia clone. Which the new skin does not cater for, and thus has no business being forced on such projects. A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K is pro-AWA! 16:06, October 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * I guess I haven't been clear enough: Wikia has every right to re-invent themselves in an effort to become highly profitable (instead of barely breaking even) and I will continue to measure those efforts as objectively as I can. That new direction has nothing specifically to do with wikis and we can no longer evaluate Wikia on the basis of how well they support that one tool out of many.


 * At the same time, this new direction is terrible for GWiki. Whether we remain, move or self-support, there will always be a tension between the hosting service and this community. As long as the vested interests of the host run parallel to our mission, the tension is easily mitigated. In this case, the new Wikia will require that we re-invent our format rather than maintain our focus on content (not the least of which is whether there ought to be a GWiki 2).


 * I think it is no contradiction to say that Oasis is good for Wikia, but bad for established communities here that are dedicated to maintaining encyclopedic knowledge-bases in an easily-digested format. Apparently, those provide little benefit to the corporation (but do add to their expenses). Wikia has no obligation to us; we have none to them. (Of course, it's far easier for them to let us go than it is for us to move, but that's the nature of the relationship between producers and consumers.) Even if Wikia provided us help converting to the new format, it's clear that their needs and ours are now in conflict; things are only going to get worse. Thus, it's not the skin which is the problem for GWiki; it's the new mission of Wikia that makes it sensible for them to impose a skin with its requirements.


 * In all this, I haven't said whether I think Wikia has acted morally or in good faith with us because I think that's largely irrelevant to the questions that interest me: can the new Wikia succeed? (Yes, I think so) and how should GWiki respond to the new Wikia? (by moving to a Galaxy Far Far Away). &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 17:17, October 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * We still have Monobook. Why can't we keep Monaco? A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K is pro-AWA! 11:40, October 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * Because Monobook is a very simple and stable skin that requires very little effort on Wikia's part to support. Monaco is was a very complex and dynamic skin with a lot of extra features that did require a lot of support.
 * Also, because they're not allowing wikis to set Monobook as the default for all users anymore (outside of the Answers universe), they are no longer obligated to perform any support for it at all. "Oh, your Monobook isn't displaying right?  I'm sorry, that's a personal issue that I don't have to help you with anymore."  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 13:23, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

Now that's interesting. Since we'll be forking, I assume there'll be a fractional community left behind who are going to run guildwars.wikia.com. If what you write is true, that remaining community will have to orient this site towards something more in line with the New Look - you suggested something like Guild Wars Guilds (which would profit from traffic driven here), maybe with a promise of more freedom in how pages can be made and what they can contain. Maybe we could have article comments enabled and make this a "game guides and discussion" type of site. Scrap the encyclopedic approach, socialize the web2.0 out of it. What do you think? -- ◄mendel► 20:06, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

Forks and knives?
So, there are two ideas in Mendel's post above.
 * 1) Could Oasis/New Wikia really be a good place for certain types of communities? As TEF suggested, perhaps embracing the full set of tools would be perfect for a large alliance and be much better than the current kludge of forums that most groups use.
 * 2) Once GWiki forks, is there a better or alternative use to which guildwars.wikia.com could be put?

Obviously, I think (1) is plausible. But should this wikia site be re-aligned to support that? I don't think so for two reasons. (a) I think each guild/alliance is going to want to be independent. Which either means creating a Guild space within a single Wikia site (which defeats the benefits of standardization) or every alliance taking its own subdomain. (b) I find it hard to imagine that Wikia would allow us to repurpose without claiming (perhaps unfairly) that we were doing it to prevent the competition. Plus, we really have enough to do to prep, move, and deal with the aftermath. (Or, perhaps I don't understand what Mendel has proposed, above.)

Instead, I think we would be better off spending time reaching out individually to each person who contributes here now and giving them good reason to move with us. In 3-6 months, if this site starts to lose traffic (and GWiki.com starts to flourish), then it might be worth helping who ever has remained here to reorient the site to something else with symbiotic relationships with both Wikia and GWiki. &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 01:48, October 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I doubt this site will lose traffic (much); whatever traffic it loses will be shortly after the fork; it makes no sense to have a third encyclopedic English Guild Wars wiki open; so if the remaining community doesn't want to compete with the other two (who will remain? maybe people who want to figure out what purpose the new skin can be put to?), then it should find a purpose of its own.
 * If we turn Wikia into an "alliance wiki farm", then it would still be good to have a central page that provides
 * a directory
 * a template repository (to be carved out of GuildWiki?)
 * help forums
 * a graphics repository (good use of the GuildWiki legacy)
 * guild pages (else move your page every time you change alliance)
 * That is, if alliances wish to run sites that they can't password-protect any part of. -- ◄mendel► 05:50, October 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * There is already a guild wars guilds wiki on Wikia. It was the project of Shadowphoenix, for those that remember her. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 05:55, October 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Even if there wasn't, it seems like a conflict of interest for GWiki to discuss re-purposing guildwars.wikia.com. Shouldn't it be up who ever decides to stay here how or whether to evolve this site? And isn't up to the marketplace to decide whether the world needs 3 sites? Wikia has earned losing this site, so I would prefer them to pay the price by them losing it after it becomes too hard to maintain. OTOH, maybe some disgrunted GWWers would prefer to take this place over and recraft it in their image. It will be interesting to see what happens. &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 06:48, October 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not abandoning GuildWars@Wikia. It's my responsibility. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 16:05, October 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Neither am I. I think when the dust has settled, we'll have to take stock of what's left and RfR the bureaucrats and admins. -- ◄mendel► 20:49, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

spots
Srsly? -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 21:28, October 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * ?--Łô√ë [[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg|Roar.]]îğá†ħŕášħ is hosting a Card Creation Contest! 21:36, October 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, where is Mendel? U liek u holiday? Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 21:38, October 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sannse is referring to
 * http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb27389/common/skins/oasis/images/themes/pattern_steel.png http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb27389/common/skins/oasis/images/themes/pattern_steel.png http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb27389/common/skins/oasis/images/themes/pattern_steel.png
 * http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb27389/common/skins/oasis/images/themes/pattern_steel.png http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb27389/common/skins/oasis/images/themes/pattern_steel.png http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb27389/common/skins/oasis/images/themes/pattern_steel.png
 * which is the current New Look background pattern that I set. It's one of the Theme Designer default background patterns. -- ◄mendel► 03:44, October 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * lololol.--Łô√ë [[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg|Roar.]]<font color="Black">îğá†ħŕášħ is hosting a Card Creation Contest! 05:19, October 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, not exactly the look I'd think fits Guild Wars :) How about something a bit more http://www.guildwars.com/ ? -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 15:07, October 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * We can't steal their background. You're immoral. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 16:22, October 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * GuildWiki has always sported a plain white background, but that looked drab with the big margins. Guildwars.com uses more of "gaming" theme, and maybe it'd be worth it to switch to it once the editors who have gotten used to white are gone. Guildwars.com has an animated background on the flash on its frontpage, and the static background fits that; and it has a different background for each section of the site. Unfortunately, the Theme Designer does not provide that kind of flexibility. So I went with something neutral instead. -- ◄mendel► 16:37, October 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Spots are neutral? Guess it takes all tastes :P
 * Felix, don't misquote me please... I said "a bit more", I mean something suggestive of that or of the game itself. I agree it wouldn't look right to have exactly the same background -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 23:57, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * I know, just yanking your chain. As mendel said, the guild wars website uses extremely different backgrounds for different pages; we can only use one image for thousands of different pages, so it's really not practical to have a picturesque background that will not mesh with a lot of our content. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 01:47, October 14, 2010 (UTC)

Curse
Would you care to give your reaction to Curse's response today? I think we should move ahead and start getting set up there, but Felix wants to see what you have to say first. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 21:10, October 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * I am also interested in your opinion --  Random <font color="Orange">Time  21:18, October 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * I have no clear opinion about curse because I don't understand their business model and I don't know the people who run it. I trust my fellow editors who say it would fit us well. I still would rather have our own server, for fundamental considerations. Today, I've managed to set up subversion on my test server at home the way I want it so that several techs can edit the server and have the changes versioned so we can track them, and have them go live as soon as they are committed. However, the wiki itself is not yet up. This is happening more slowly than I'd have liked, but I'm still confident about this option.
 * Nothing in this is really new. -- ◄mendel► 22:11, October 14, 2010 (UTC)

Pipe
Why are you being pedantic about the "vertical bar"? Everyone calls it a pipe, so it seems like that would just be causing unnecessary confusion. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 13:02, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * "Pipe" is the use of the vertical bar in a CLI environment, where the output of one task is piped into another. This meaning makes no sense on the wiki. I looked at ASCII and unicode tables and the Jargon File to find the most widely used name. (See also pipe_(character).) I don't think anyone has trouble understanding what "vertical bar" means. -- ◄mendel► 15:53, October 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * It confused me. I have never heard it described as a vertical bar (although I accept that it's an accurate term for the symbol).


 * I haven't canvassed anyone recently, but generally, these are the terms I've used to describe shift-[\] on most US keyboards (more/less in frequency order):
 * Pipe
 * That thing that's like an exclamation w/o the dot.
 * straight line.
 * vertical line.
 * divider.
 * The thing that you get when you do shift plus the backslash.


 * Mind you, now that it's done, I'm not sure it's worth changing. People who use the symbol frequently will figure it out (after some head-scratching); people who don't were going to have trouble anyhow. &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 16:31, October 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Piped link &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 16:40, October 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, then maybe it is worth changing. (I've made slight clarifications above) . &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 16:49, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * wikipedia:Help:Template calls it vertical pipe. Confusion all around. Poll time? -- ◄mendel► 18:07, October 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * Also Wikipedia:Template:Pipe. "Pipe" is the simplest, and it's what we've been calling it here for years.  There just doesn't seem to be a pressing need to change.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 19:06, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Quoting from Template:Pipe: "This template uses the &amp;#124; decimal code for the vertical bar (or pipe character) ". :-P (Also note that our Template:Pipe has quite different semantics.) -- ◄mendel► 20:11, October 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * But it's not called "Template:Vertical bar", is it? &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 20:45, October 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * How about this: we leave it alone for now and change it back only by popular demand. But, next time one of us wants to change long-used nomenclature, we (a) post a note about it and (b) wait a bit to find out if anyone thinks it's doubleplus ungood. Sometimes, it's even more important to get consensus on minor changes because the potential for distraction outweighs potential benefits. &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 21:12, October 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * I usually call it the "mellow mouth." =| [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 21:34, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, let's do away with dictionaries. Anyway, I've already changed it to "vertical pipe". -- ◄mendel► 22:34, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * *steals the pipe and smokes it* Jink  23:04, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * No Bogarting the vertical pipe, plz. &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 23:23, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * one person doesn't understand what pipe means and changes it despite the fact that the entire rest of the wiki and everyone else for 4 years has understood it? cmon now Mendel, you know better than that. - Auron 02:00, October 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't straw man me, please. I do understand what "pipe" means, as I have explained in my original response. In fact, I have listed the Jargon file entry where hacker slang for Ascii code 7C is listed. However, ASCII and Unicode charts have opted to list this character as "vertical bar"; so I think that's what it should be called when referring to it as a character and not in its "data channeling" function. I also think that people who do not have a computer science background will recognize "vertical bar" more easily than "pipe". -- ◄mendel► 09:20, October 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * (1) Does usage have no bearing on the term we use? (2) Did it really need to change now without any discussion?


 * I'm glad ASCII and Unicode charts have agreed on a name, but I still have never used it and I can't recall ever hearing that term before. It's fine to use a dictionary as a reference point and I agree that generally (almost always even), the dictionary ought to be the standard. However, there are times when dictionaries don't see the whole picture. And there are times when long-time practice ought to take precedence. Well-intentioned though your actions were, don't you think you might have been hasty in making this change? &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 16:44, October 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Re: (1), the usage argument is what was argued above (I think by Dr Ishmael?), and I already gave in, ok? I was repeating my argument here because Auron mistakenly attributed another motive to me.
 * Re: (2), see Be Bold. I did not anticipate this being a controversial edit. -- ◄mendel► 17:19, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

Stephen Fry, grammar, language, and a link
Kinetic Typography: Stephen Fry on Language. Must viewing for those who enjoy language, grammar, and/or words that come alive literally as well as metaphorically. &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 01:17, October 20, 2010 (UTC) <youtube width=440 height=260>J7E-aoXLZGY www.stephenfry.com


 * I enjoyed that. Thank you! -- ◄mendel► 09:08, October 20, 2010 (UTC)

<youtube width=240 height=220>hHQ2756cyD8 Fry and Laurie on language

-- ◄mendel► 13:26, October 20, 2010 (UTC)

Generating a talkpage notification email
This would probably send me, mendel, a talkpage mod notice. --91.96.195.107 10:15, October 31, 2010 (UTC)

You know what to do.
359 359 742 --Łô√ë <font color="Black">îğá†ħŕášħ is hosting a Card Creation Contest! 09:31, November 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * I get the cleanup crew to aisle 9, but do you really mean to say they've lost the nuclear missile launch codes? AGAIN? -- ◄mendel► 09:59, November 11, 2010 (UTC)

Welcome to Community Central!
Here you can meet up with other Wikia community members to talk about your wiki, learn about what's happening on Wikia, and find help.

Unless you want to talk about how the wikia skin is bad for your wiki, learn about wikis moving off Wikia, and find help forking your own wiki: then Sannse will delete your page. Eventually. (To be honest, there are a lot of blog comments and forum posts about these topics still left.) -- ◄mendel► 00:43, November 12, 2010 (UTC)

dots 2.0
Dots! More dots! Ok, stop dots! You're a loser if you get this. :P

So, when are we gonna do something about them? I've seen more people complain about these in random places here and even in-game, and the move is taking longer than initially thought, so maybe we shouldn't wait until it's all done to start deciding what's the best background? Maybe come up with at least a temporary replacement? RoseOfKali 21:15, November 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Have you seen the default backgrounds? The only thing that maybe looks better is the one with small checkers, or maybe a unicolor (white-ish) background. -- ◄mendel► 21:37, November 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm game to try any of those, though. -- ◄mendel► 21:41, November 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * I've stared at those for a while, and to be honest, I'm not really sure if any of those would be "good." Half of them look like they're intended for a scrapbooking wiki, and there's a twitter clone for some reason. Kind of hard to say how some of these will tile, the dots don't look half as evil in that little square. :P I think we need to stay as far away as possible from small patterns, uni-color or subtle design is much easier on the eye. I have my eye on the dark gray (#8) &mdash; many gaming sites use a dark theme, and it looks ok to me, at that size at least. I used to always choose dark low-contrast backgrounds for my college presentations, and people seemed to like it. :P If all else fails, choose no background at all, or a white-ish uni-color you suggested, it's better than the dots, and monobook used to be pretty much white too, it's a more familiar look at least. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 17:30, November 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've switched to #6 for the time being, comments? (I don't want to go dark just yet.) -- ◄mendel► 01:52, November 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Much better! I wasn't sure about that one, because I couldn't tell how it would scale, but I can barely see the design, very easy on the eyes. :) RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 02:21, November 23, 2010 (UTC)

Minor tweak to Sitenotice template
On the main page, while the text is appearing correctly, the template's border was displaying "behind" the 300x250 ad, so I removed the border. JoePlay ( talk ) 19:02, November 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * I find that it helps to apply the tweak where the problem is, in this case, the main page. It helps avoid repercussions elsewhere. -- ◄mendel► 01:49, November 23, 2010 (UTC)

gww pageviews
http://webnumbr.com/guild-wars-wiki-views-total -- does this numbr already exists (with more history)? -- ◄mendel► 02:31, November 27, 2010 (UTC)

Rhythm pack
The only good game is Beat Hazard, which is a top down shooter that is only as good as your music libraries ability to ROCK OUT. If you're like me or Skuld, you have a lot of Metal and the like, and thats really what this game is built for. It doesn't treat songs with heavy lyrics well, but other mostly acoustic or cluttered songs work. Rest of pack is bad.--Łô√ë <font color="Black">îğá†ħŕášħ is hosting a Card Creation Contest! 11:38, November 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I didn't think much of it based on the screenshots, but the demo is fair enough and makes me curious what kind of gameplay my music would translate into. And connecting this up to a microphone would indeed be awesome - this is the kind of game you should be running in triplicate with video beamers and gamepads on any kind of venue where music is played loudly, and having a live band play to this woul probably be awesome. Thanks for the heads up! -- ◄mendel► 13:55, November 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, my current goal is The Scarecrow, Insane difficulty, If I don't make 10 million points I'll be very dissapointed in myself. I'd do it tonight, but I just felt my brain stop processing information.  Actually felt it.  I need a break from epilepsy inducing flashes.--Łô√ë [[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg|Roar.]]<font color="Black">îğá†ħŕášħ is hosting a Card Creation Contest!  14:22, November 28, 2010 (UTC)

Congratulations!
You have won an honorable mention in the Create-A-Card contest!--Łô√ë <font color="Red">îğá <font color="Green">†ħŕášħ 09:26, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Just noticed
You're Mendel again, and not M.Mendel! Not that I knew you before the wikia merge, but still, it's gonna be a lot easier to link to you now :P --El Nazgir 16:15, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
 * ^ what ever he said. Also mebbe you should redirect? Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 16:47, 3 December 2010 (UTC)