Talk:Animal companion/Archive 1

Archive

Experience
"A pet will "never" reach a higher level than its owner."

This is not true. I tamed a Melandru's stalker when I was level 4, the pet started out with level 5. After some time I leveled up to level 5. After some more time, the pet leveled up to level 6 while I was still at level 5.

I guess that pets level up at the same speed as players, and that it just seems that pets never reach higher levels than their owners because most pets, when tamed, have a lower level than their owner. But that's really just guessing. Psyringe 23:28, 18 Sep 2005 (EST)


 * This makes sense, especially if pets don't get quest or mission XP (as stated in the article). As a result, pets would generally lage behind their owners.  But yes, it's very possible to get a level 5 Melandru's Stalker when you are still level 1.  --JoDiamonds 16:41, 24 October 2005 (EST)

Also, my testing indicates that pets gain experience at least twice as fast as players, covering the jumps between levels in many fewer kills than a player would need. This is particularly easy to test with a low level pet. - Epinephrine


 * I highly doubt this. Remember that by default, low level characters/mobs/pets gain exp faster ANYWAYS.  Your theory implies that, if a ranger, right after reaching level 5, tames a level 5 stalker, and the ranger do no missions whatsoever afterwards, the stalker will hit level 6 first.  Unfortunately I don't have the character slots to personally test this right now.
 * Fortunately I do ;) Did some testing, was correct.  Pets level faster than us. see thread here - still doing testing, but it looks like they follow different rules.  http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92406  Assumption is that they cannot pass a player's level, and since they gain less experience than you do if fighting lower level foes you will catch up to your pet's level, at which point it cannot pass yours.  Making a pre-searing character on my other account to test this aspect. --Epinephrine 16:27, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, data continues to accumulate at the above link - Given that deolmstead's pet gained it's experience when dead and mine while alive that settles the "gains like a player of the same level" myth. Now we have to figure out how it really does work, but perhaps the reference to experience could be changed to reflect tested facts?  I'm new to editing wikis, but I made a change just now, hopefully it is alright? --Epinephrine 16:33, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Continued testing of pet experience has shown several things: Pets level faster than players both when below or above the owner's level; the rate seems to be roughly double the experience rate.  The test just conducted was on a level 5 Melandru's Stalker, using a level 2 ranger made for this purpose.  I tested in pre searing qualitatively, and showed that the pet can not only be higher level (obviously true, as you can tame it) but also can gain levels while above the player's level.  Re-made, brought the same setup post-searing, and this time killed the devourers outside of Ascalon (level 4) repeatedly, to test experience gain.  This should take ~55 kills for the pet to level from 5->6 if it gains as a player; 27 or so if it gains at double normal rate - unfortunately I didn't realise that the Devourers there sometimes spawn a plague devourer instead - it took ~33 kills to level, the pet had only gained experiece coming through the battle from pre-to post searing and fighting these foes - this is slightly off the 27 kills predicted, but the level 3 Plague Devourers mixed in there may account for the difference.  I'll keep testing, but it is good to know that pets level both below and above a player's level, and at approximately double normal rate. --Epinephrine 12:34, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

General
I'd like to point to the Guide written by Jenosavel and Epinephrine; http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89491 it details many aspects of Animal Companions and shows that many aspects listed here are incorrect; in particular:

- Armour values - Damage types - Pet Evolution Stats

The Pet Evolution Methods list on the wiki lists incorrect causes for evolution changes - Dire is not associated with pet attack skills, nor does Hearty have anything to do with player damage.
 * I would liek to point out that, the article's mention of pet skills are as a mean to affect overall damage done by the pet. Thus, it's completely consistent with your summary of have the pet deal more damage than you to move it towards Dire.  Your own writeup also specificallly mentioned that it's hard to judge whether the damage dealt by the master (in relation to damage dealt by pet) has effect on evolution, and is hard to immediately dismiss.  Thus your comment above seem to imply you have reached furthur conclusion that you did not reach in your original guide.
 * It does make intuitive sense though that damage "tanked" would push a pet towards Hearty. -PanSola 00:17, 8 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Finally, your armor values do make sense. Pet has essentially warrior-class armor without additional bonus to physical attacks.  So it's 20 + 3*Level. -PanSola 00:17, 8 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Also, it's ironic that, much of the "incorrect" info here seems to be derived from the " *Updated* Ultimate Pet Guide" on guildwarsguru where Epinephrine is from ^^" -PanSola 00:59, 8 December 2005 (UTC)


 * How is that irony? There are many uninformed people everywhere.  I didn't write that guide, and in fact the errors present in it spurred Jenosavel and I to do the research.


 * As to the statement about damage - it is clear that in fact your pet taking damage is what needs to be avoided - I have made Dire pets using NO attack skills, thus my claim that attack skills are unecessary. You can evolve a pet that way against the minotaurs outside of the Ice Tooth Caves - since they don't heal they eventually die, you can simply allow your pet to attack the whole time and use Symbiotic Bond/Otyugh's Cry/Call of Protection to keep it from suffering damage, and keep yourself alive.  It will go Dire.  You simply have to let them deal damage - and that is why I objected - it is damage, not pet skills that matter.


 * A correlation is obviously present between damage and pet skills. You _can_ however evolve a Dire pet using 0 beast mastery and 0 pet skills.  In fact, I have evolved wolves in pre-searing to Dire without even taming them - I simply allowed them to kill me 800+ times.  (For your information, I have tested every pet in the game - the pre-searing wolves and bears are the only animals that gain experience from killing a player (outside of PvP) - as they start as enemies they are awarded experience for the kills, no other animal does).  Pre-searing is thus the only place you can level a pet by having it attack you.


 * So to get a Dire pet you do not ever need to have a single skill used, nor a single point of Beast Mastery invested. As for experience, I'll repeat my experiments, but they indicated that the pets gain at roughly 2-3 times the rate of a person.  I did this by counting how many kills were necessary per level of what enemies and comparing it to a chart of experience /level for players.  The factor is hard to determine, as the experience was quantised (on a per creature basis) but was indicating 2-3 times - if I use lower level opponents the resolution will be better, but it will take much longer.


 * You misunderstood me. I totally agree with the data you present above.  My point was that the version of the article you commented upon originally did NOT say skills are REQUIRED.  That version first stated damage dealt by pet is important, then mentioned pet skills as a FACTOR that can affect damage dealt by the pet.  "Pet skills can affect damage dealt by pet, so be mindful of it and make sure your pet deals more/less damage to train in the offensive/defensive direction" was the gist of the prior version. -PanSola 22:16, 8 December 2005 (UTC)


 * The issue of player damage/pet damage IS a tricky one - I suspect that dire evolution in truth has nothing to do with ANY ratio or difference between the damages, but is simply a measure of some TOTAL amount of damage dealt by the pet, with or without skills - possibly a total of damage dealt by the pet at that point, possibly a minimum per level, who knows - but I suspect it has nothing to do with the amount of damage your player deals, save that killing your pets enemies too fast prevents it from dealing enough damage. The fact that I can level a wolf to dire in the wild supports this belief.  The reason that there is a conundrum here is that when a player deals damage it typically reduces the amount of damage that the pet deals; after all, the pet gains experience from the kill but has dealt less damage.  I am proposing to test this theory shortly by raising a wolf to level 9 while allowing it to do all the damage against foes for which it gains experience, but returing and killing hordes of level 3 enemies once the pet is level 9 and no longer gains experience.  In so doing my damage will far outstrip the pets damage, but I suspect that the pet will continue to develop as aggressive/Dire, even if I exceed it's damage output by a factor of 10 with every level.  Of course, it could be measuring damage done per kill worth experience or something.  If I hit problems I may just have to level it to dire more slowly, against foes that offer a better damage/experince ratio (lower level foes) so that I can deliver a substantialy portion of the damage against each foe, while not affecting the total amount of damage my pet has done.


 * I also agree. The Player/Pet damage ratio theory just happened to be the dominent theory on the GWOnline ranger forums when the eariler version on evolution was written (it still is the dominent theory there right now).  That section has been revised so now it list observed correlations with various theories, to emphasis that we don't know the exact mechanism yet. -PanSola 22:16, 8 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Anyway, our testing is not complete, but the due date for guides had come so Jenosavel and I published. There is obviously much more to learn, and the experiments continue.  For example, a method has been suggested to test the non-critical damage of pets by using arranged GvG and the balanced stance skill to cause criticals not to hit for extra damage - this should allow us to tease the true damage range of the pet out, and will allow us to see the critical hit rate as well (by comparison of the damage distributions).  We are still working on various aspects that aren't fully understood, but hopefully have banished many myths about pets.  I have some theories about pet experience, but they are theories, and can't be tested just yet - hopefully soon.  -Epinephrine


 * Hehe the non-critical damage was my suggestion, and I eagerly await a table on pet base damages. Keep up the good work! (-: -PanSola 22:16, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Added a note about changing secondary class away from ranger, as this question seems to come up a great deal on fora; the pet stays linked to the character. --Epinephrine 11:55, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
 * And lovely wording at that (-: -PanSola 12:33, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Pet Evolution
The main pet evolution research is conducted at Beastmasters: Grand Pet Survey. If you read the last dozen or so pages, you will see strange results that are not entirely explained. We should revert to a version that accurately reflects the state of the pet evolution art, rather than maintain one that is verifiably false. If you think it is well understood, try evolving an Aggressive pet using the described methods on something like Charr outside Piken Square.

--Daulnay 1:20 pm PST, October 24 2005
 * See above "Corrections" section for Epinephrine's research on evolution. I propose a simple theory: Pet damage dealt vs pet damage taken.  Which ever is greater will push evolution in that direction.  Of course this is completely untested whatsoever, but it's simple and elegant and seems to be able to stay consistent with the observations that lead to the development of other theories. -PanSola 00:30, 8 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I am tempted to agree with you PanSola - I suspect it truly is that simple as well, and that it has nothing to do with the master's damage rate at all, only that when the master deals the damage it takes away from the pet's damage output, as the damage dealt/experience point falls. - Epinephrine (who really should bother registering at some point)


 * I tried evolving an aggressive pet and failed. I took my crappiest bow, set my MMS to zero, and boosted the BM to max. Using only BM skills and letting the critter do the most work, I ended up with a playful lizard. I'm pretty sure my damage output was far less compared to the little fella but he died a lot on his way, so I can only side with Daulnay and PanSola about the evolution. --Ishmaeel 04:04, 1 March 2006 (CST)

Auron Bushi

Man I did the whole have the pet do more dmg than u while taking very lil dmg thing to get your pet aggresive and then dire...That worked but dire pets die so fast so I got rid of it and redid it to try to make it Hearty or hopefully Elder... So I had 0 beast mastery got me a Blue Reef Lunker and took on some Minataurs at Elona...The pet did 2-3 dmg while i did 10-30 dmg (axe) reach as highg as 80dmg while using atack skills and gues what... Pet evolved into a Dir Crab... So i get rid of him... Go get another one... Let him die alot... He evovles into a Dire Crab... so I tryied the mix Style Aproach Let him do alot of dmg then very little.. Dire. Let him die alot and then do alot of dmg... Dire... I tryind to get and Elder Crab 6 TIMES IN ONE DAY... They all turned out to be Dire... So I come to the conclusion that all Blue crabs are bound to be Dire(wich I'm pretty sure isn't true now)... I say Blue cause I had a red one and he turned out Elder... so I went out... got me a Red Crab... Got out into Elona...Let him die Right off the back said to my self "Lets see your dead arse become Dire now punk"... Killed every thing in there.. did this several times... The Result...Another Dire Crab... It's 3:22 A.M. I give up.

Hey I tell you what would be nice if we could sell our pets to other players at least then Experiment like this would not have been such a huge waste time...6 Dire Crabs are now roaming Ascalon the Ecosystem will be forever changed.

Do Canthan pets grow during their evolution? I had two tigers and a Phoenix, none ever grew an inch despite becoming hearty/dire. I tried this right after release, any news about that? --Longasc 11:32, 27 July 2006 (CDT)


 * No, they currently do not grow. It seems that the Factions team forgot to give them that feature. You can go to the forums an apply for a suggestion that ask to give them growth. Mithran 10:10, 28 November 2006 (CST)

I very carefully trained my Melandru's Stalker from a kitten up to level 20, but it never changed from Aggressive to Dire. It is now a Level 20 Aggressive Stalker. From reading all of these guides, I did not think that was possible. Anyone have a clue how that could happen? -- BBlackmoor 19:12, 15 December 2006 (CST)

Category
What can this go under? not skills because it isnt strictly charm animal &mdash; Skuld  04:20, 4 November 2005 (EST)
 * We don't need to put everything in a category... --Rainith 04:31, 4 November 2005 (EST)
 * Actually, this seems like it belongs in Game Mechanics to me. Along with other complicated background concepts such as movement, damage, attacking, etc. --Crazytreeboy 00:25, 27 July 2006 (CDT)

Pet Skills
I vote dumping them into a category and just linking to it. I do NOT want to see the current list in the article expanded into a table within this article, though wouldn't mind seeing a separate article containing that table. -PanSola 06:22, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Auron Bushi I would like to see elemnetal pet attacks Icy Paw... Fire Fang... Lightening Scratch

[OT] Ideas for new "pets" in future expansions...
This might be for Chapter 2 or Chapter 8193.31 or never happen, but a cool idea anyways...


 * Plant companion (you see all those walking trees running around?)
 * Mineral companion (eh, elementals?)
 * Mechanical companion (Mini Iron Forgemen!!!)
 * Candy companion (need I say more?)

Pets might not just be limited to animals in the future! Though the ranger Beastmaster skills will not be able to affect those pets since they aren't "animal" companions.

BTW, are insects animals? how about crabs and spiders? -PanSola 22:31, 8 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I think it'd be cool to be able to tame every non-sentient creature in the game. Shandy 04:08, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

You can tame UW Spiders... Emyrs Myrrdin 17:23, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

And the Moss Spiders in pre-, although I can't remember when you next see spiders (somewhere in Kryta, maybe?) --Nunix 17:28, 13 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Theres those foul poisoning spiders in maguuma 18:08, 13 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Or hydras! It would give my E/R a reason to carry charm animal around - added fire ownage! | Chuiu 20:12, 13 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I'd go for wurms. I have this image in my head of a PVP battle: you have maybe a Necro/Ranger, standing alone all Scar Tattoo'd up, couple of Warriors are coming at him.. *BOOM* Siege Wurm pops up behind our necro hero! Moo hah hah hah! .. hah.. huh.. anywayyyy.. plus, I could could call it a "Spice is Life" build! kekeke --Nunix 20:57, 13 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Every non-sentient creature, Shandy? I'd take Glint then.
 * "Tank this, losers!"
 * I did a lot of damage with candy.
 * &mdash; Lunarbunny 21:04, 13 December 2005 (UTC)


 * You didn't call Glint non-sentient just now, did you? Fortunately your destiny is not ending up dead on the floor of her lair. Whoops, there she comes - gotta go --Ishmaeel 08:11, 24 February 2006 (CST)


 * I'd have to agree with Nunix. Wurms would be cool, and freaky. Imagine 8 primary or secondary rangers with wurms. Talk about complete knock down. And hydras and bone dragons? Wow, the possibilities for "pets" are endless. --TheSpectator 03:26, 17 January 2006 (UTC)


 * PanSola mentioned crabs. I can see the GvG group names now. "We've got Crabs" keeps favor of the gods for America. *rolls eyes* :P --Gares Redstorm 04:04, 24 February 2006 (CST)


 * Ahahaha, laughed my ass of at that one. 69.124.143.230 06:14, 24 February 2006 (CST)

Auron. I'd like to see the clasic Wyrven for a pet or Turtle or Tortoise of some sort.. .i think i hear a rumer that you could get a turtle in factions but never saw one...

I actually dont think those exist. Well, seeing as how ive beaten the game and never heard even talk of it, there probably isnt any. Sorry! --69.114.157.75 21:52, 12 January 2007 (CST)

Pet Damage Types
There was an anon edit that said:

''Some recent tests using healing signet, 0 tactics, two shields (a +4 blunt, and a plain shield) have turned some results that hint that Warthogs may actually do blunt damage. [range w/ +4 shield, 10-16 vs lvl 5 Warthog no armor and healing signet. range w/o +4 shield 11-18 same conditions. (test over 100 hits while using signet)].''

Comparing that to the extensiveness of tests performed by Jenosavel and Epinephrine (see footnote #4, I'm more inclined to go with Jenosavel and Epinephrine's results. If the anon user would like to challenge this result, I suggest posting more details of the numbers during the tests. -PanSola 19:04, 18 February 2006 (CST)

[This is another anon edit confirming that Warthog's are not slashing or piercing, although I can't yet specificly say that its blunt damage. Tested on 23 February 2006 (PST)]


 * Eh, can you post details of your test? In the absence of specifics, more people are more inclined to believe the opposite result which HAS provided specifics. -PanSola 04:23, 24 February 2006 (CST)

Ok, here's a new analysis of Jenosavel and Epinephrine's results:
 * 1) Spider and Dune Lizard have damage types that Skeletons are resistent to, and this type of damage is physical (because when Greater Conflagration is on, their damage is increased to normal).
 * 2) The other pets, include warthogs, do NOT deal Blunt damage, since we know Skeletons are weak against Blut, and none of the pets deal extra damage to Skeletons (because Blunt is Physical, and Greater Conflagration would have coverted it to non-blunt, but pet damage do not decrease when Greater Conflagration is on).
 * 3) The only known physical damage that skeletons are resistent to are piercing damage, so from the test results we deduce Spider and Dune Lizard deal piercing damage.
 * 4) The only known physical damage that skeletons are neutral to are slashing damage, so from the test results we deduce that the other pets, including Warthogs, deal slashing damage.

To reconcil the Feb 23rd anon's claims and Jenosavel and Epinephrine's results, it is theoretically possible that there is an additional physical damage type, that is not blunt, piercing, nor slashing. I will call this hypothetical damage type "Biting Damage". If Warthogs deal biting damage, and skeletons are neutral to biting damage, that would explain the conflicting reports we are getting. However I'm still skeptical about the Feb 18th anon claim. +4 AL vs blunt isn't a lot, so 100 trials might not be able to smooth out the statistical variations. -PanSola 04:34, 24 February 2006 (CST)


 * Hmm, without seeing some data I'm not convinced that there's much reason to do more tests, but I could level a warthog quickly on my second account. There are two major problems with his testing though:
 * 1.) 100 hits is nothing in terms of detecting a difference on such a small range - we used hundreds (well, thousands once you pool them) of hits at level 20 with 12 BM to ensure that the damage ranges were large.


 * 2.) he's using a "+4" shield and a "non +4" shield with 0 tactics - however, the AL bonus from an item varies when you don't meet the requirement. If he had a plain white shield and a purple +4 to blunt shield the ALs will be different anyway, since the higher quality item has a higher default AL. This can be seen easily with foci, use several different foci without meeting the requirements and you'll see that they can vary from +3 energy to +6 energy without meeting the requirement; the same is true for shields, they vary in their base values, and that variance could well account for the difference, particularly as the +4 vs blunt is clearly a special item, while the other may be a low-quality white item.


 * Given these variations, I'm not convinced there any merit to his claim, but I can check soonish to see if there's anything to it - I'll need to get my hands on a +vs blunt, a +vs piercing, a +vs slashing and a non-bonus shield, all with the same AL however, as I'll need to meet the requirement to ensure that the AL is correct. Only in that manner can you ensure that the ALs are the same, as it it difficult to tell what the AL is on an item when the requirement is not met. --Epinephrine 05:15, 24 February 2006 (CST)
 * Keep in mind that the two anons were making different claims. The first one, which you refuted and I tend to agree with you, claimed warthog deal blunt.  The second claim, which provided no detail whatsoever, claimed wartnog deal non-slashing.  Of course the lack of any details makes it just as, if not more sketchy than the first.  But that's where I assumed good faith and derived the Biting Damage theory from.  Anyways, you are the guy with PhD in GW Pets, I can't tell you what to do d-:  It might be easier to have the pet hit low level plants (crown of thorns in old ascalon) rather than finding the right shields, if the test is just about slashing-ness. -PanSola 05:20, 24 February 2006 (CST)
 * Well, non-slashing will be easy to check soon-ish; the biting damage theory is possible, as some new form of physical damage, but assassin Saboteur's Armor provides +15 AL against slashing damage - rather than trying to find two shields of the same AL, one with and one without a slashing damage bonus to test with, I could always wait until the rather convenient Assassin armour is available. I'll keep my eyes peeled for +AL slashing shields though, just in case.  Hitting the plants would seem to fall into the same trap that the other testing did, the possibility of a "biting damage" type existing, and that plants are weak against that as they are against slashing - only with a specifically anti-slashing AL can we really determine if it is.  Come to think of it, since there is no assassin head piece with slashing damage reduction it would be a pain to check, as you'd have 1/8 attacks randomly hitting the head.  Shield is the better option, certainly, but will take time to find.--Epinephrine 05:26, 24 February 2006 (CST)
 * Something that helps if testing with Saboteur's Armor is to NOT wear anything on the head. The damage should stand out so much that you can filter it. -PanSola 05:45, 24 February 2006 (CST)
 * Also with plants, if they also take extra damage from pets, that just means results are inconclusive. But if they don't take extra damage from pets' normal physical attack, than we got a conclusive prove of the existence of a different damage type.  Not sure if that'll make you think it's worthwhile to check. -PanSola 05:49, 24 February 2006 (CST)

I took a level 5 warthog, lynx, lizard, and bear, went had them attack a level 3 Hulking Stone Elemental and the fact that the warthog's range of damage is higher against this target is immediately appearent. This lead me to believe that warthogs may in fact do blunt damage. In order to test further I stripped completely naked (including headgear) annoyed a warthog into attacking me and switched between no weapons at all and a chakram (+7 vs. blunt). I didn't do enough trials to satisfy the extreme sticklers but the difference was clear enough to me that I didn't feel the need to do so. I'm the disrespected anon poster of the 23rd. :)
 * Actually you were respectively disregarded. Subtle difference d-: -PanSola 15:17, 24 February 2006 (CST)
 * I did smile when I said it :P I've now done more tests involving a level 20 warthog and stalker (both hearty) and using the same test against Hulking Stone Elementals (weak against blunt) I observed that they both did equivalent damage. All of which leads me to the rather odd conclusion that warthogs start out doing blunt and change to slashing (I didn't do enough to distinguish 'tween slashing/piercing but see no reason to doubt the other testers) by level 20.
 * I would suggest you do more tests at Level 5 to collect a larger data set, or let us know how much testing you originally performed with level 5 pets. -PanSola 18:25, 24 February 2006 (CST)
 * That does look like a reasonable test method, better than I had thought (using a shield, which is prone to errors with the base AL). I suppose it is possible that pets change their damage types as they develop, certainly my (our) testing concentrated at the end-game levels, with little testing of low level pets.  It would be very odd, but it's possible for a carried item to throw your results off, this has been an issue with many tests of pet damage; I frequently have people telling me how they tested such-and-such and that the damaghe range was lower than expected; generally this is caused by an opponent carrying a shield or other protective device - such drops will give the opponent higher armour, which is one good reason to avoid testing vs random opponents, or to kill them and examine the drop after.  Of course, it is unlikely in the extreme that you happened to find a golem carrying a negative armour item, though they do exist and can drop.  It's possible to have several foes with + armour items, and that the warthog's foe didn't, but again, this is unlikely.  Another possibility is that you hasd forgotten to switch armour sets for example, and had different Beast Mastery levels on the different occasions, but I am now interested, as your technique seems sound, so I will have a look.  I just raised a Dire Warthog last night, and can easily test to see if it is dealing blunt damage.  If so the pets have been updated without notice (which is entirely possible); if not then we get into the question of whether the damage type changes or something; I'll do a quick check tonight, to ensure that the skeletons still take extra from blunt (candy cane hammer, yay!), then to check the Warthog's damage output vs them.--Epinephrine 23:19, 27 February 2006 (CST)
 * Well, I don't have a +vs blunt item, so I couldn't confirm that pets deal blunt in a rigorous manner, but the level 20 warthog dealt the same damage range with and without GC up tonight vs the skeletons, so whatever it deals is equivalent to fire and slashing damage (it is physical, as it goes up when under GC vs opponents weak to fire likt the level 10 minotaurs outside the Ice Tooth Cavern). Same damage range, same crits.  Can't confirm whether it is blunt without +AL gear vs blunt of course, but it behaves like slashing at level 20; so no hidden update at least.  I'll try a level 5 pet tonight if I can recruit someone with GC to help me (I don't want to ditch my strider on my main ranger).  --Epinephrine 13:49, 28 February 2006 (CST)

Pet Differences?
Ok, I just came across this ancient article and it says there are inherent differences between pets.

''Zylaar asks: Many of our community members have questions about Ranger pets. We assume - based on the rest of the game - that the pets' abilities are balanced; is there any official information available to help players choose a pet, such as their special attacks, strengths and weaknesses? Any plans to add new and/or elite pets?''

''Gaile Gray: You’re right in noting that pets do have differences. Some have more armor, some attack faster, some have more health, etc. You will note that the specifics are not really called out in the game. That’s because, to some degree, we leave at least some aspects of the game in undisclosed state so that the community can figure things out. ''

''Another example of this would be bows: Some shoot faster, some truer, and some at longer range. At least one has armor piercing, too. If you add elements like bow grips and strings, you have some pretty interesting complexity of stats for these items. The same applies to the many pet-related skills used in conjunction with each pet’s inherent strengths.''

''As for elite pets – none will be coming in the foreseeable future. However, there will definitely be new pets in Chapter 2 and most likely in each subsequent chapter.''

Thoughts? --Karlos 00:15, 4 March 2006 (CST)


 * Jenosavel and Epinephrine concluded in their magnum opus that Gaile Gray was essentially lying in that interview. IIRC. &mdash; Stabber 00:17, 4 March 2006 (CST)
 * Or rather, Gaile was lied to. d-: -PanSola 00:54, 4 March 2006 (CST)
 * Either way, lies were told.
 * There was a post including Gaile's reaction to the Pet Guide in which she explained that it was the information she had been given, and I don't doubt that initially they intended to have all pets behave differently. It was most likely planned and then abandoned in face of the difficulty balancing the pets.  Unfortunately, for whatever reason, Gaile's response was edited out of the forum thread.  I don't believe that anyone was purposefully deceiving anyone however, which makes it a non-lie, as a lie must carry with it intent to deceive.  I'd rather take their word for it, and give the benefit of the doubt than cast further aspersions on Gaile's (or ANet's) character --Epinephrine 22:36, 20 March 2006 (CST)
 * Yeah, I don't think it was technically a lie. At one point turtle shells were a crafting material, gems were used for some of the Factions 15k armour sets (presumedly Canthan) and Prophecies was supposed to be required for future campaigns. Staying up to date on all the details of game mechanics is part of Isaiah Cartwright's job. -- Gordon Ecker 22:35, 7 September 2006 (CDT)

Panda
Anet dropped the ball not being able to charm a panda... I don't care how rare pandas are! I want one! --Jamie 08:21, 2 May 2006 (CDT)

What about all those water buffalo wandering around outside Shing Jea monastery? Evolve one of those to Dire! =) -- Unregistered GuildWiki Fan, May 22, 2006

I'm still waiting for more impressive pets in general... sure, they can walk around and attack, but to really get some use out of 'em, you need to use precious skill bar slots. They need to have pets more like familiars, each having a different specialization and skill set- some focused on sneaking and moving quickly, some built to attack and move quickly, some with minor spells to cast on enemies, like a 1 second blind or a -1 health degen spell, that they do on their own. Pets are meh atm, with 15 different kinds doing the same thing. As soon as each gets his own skill set and AI, I'll be all over them pets. -Auron of Neon 10:39, 29 May 2006 (CDT)

Although this would make pets much cooler, people would be falling over the ranger class to get the right pet for the right build, which will probably be for almost every build if what you suggested is to be instated. Being a ranger myself, that would be pretty cool though, what with my black moa sneaking around a rock and biting a dredge's ugly head off from the back.--69.114.157.75 21:57, 12 January 2007 (CST)

Confusing wording
''When a pet dies, all of its owner's skills are disabled for 8 seconds. This time can be reduced with higher Beast Mastery. If a pet dies quickly after it is resurrected (approximately within 15 seconds), the owner's skills will not be disabled.''

The wording of this is confusing. Does this mean that the eight second recharge does not kick in for fifteen seconds, just in case they bring their pet right back? -- Dashface  08:17, 4 July 2006 (CDT)
 * It means the 8 sec disable does not kick in just in case the pet dies right after it's brought back. It's similar to how you don't get additional Death Penality if you die right after you get resurrected. - 08:31, 4 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Thanks. For some reason I read it as "after it has died". I think I might add a few words on to the end of the sentence to add extra clarity. -- Dashface [[Image:Dashface.png]] 04:41, 23 July 2006 (CDT)

Question
When I made my first char I charmed a Strider in pre. I got rid of it later and got a Melandru's Stalker for that quest in post. I later replaced it with a Moa Bird from Post as I like the pink. It just evolved into a Playful Strider. Do all the Moa Birds evolve into Striders? They are listed as different types of pets here. - BeXoR 18:11, 7 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I believe if you use the command /petname, it will reset the name Moa Bird to Strider. I could be wrong.--Jack  20:53, 15 July 2006 (CDT)

Name
why aren't we calling them pets - that is the official name ST47 17:35, 9 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Skills refer to animal companions. --68.142.14.86 18:15, 9 July 2006 (CDT)
 * kay :) ST47 18:23, 9 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I added a redirect page for "pets", someone already added a "pet" redirect before. Really necessary, I have never referred to any of my pets as "animal companion". I still think Pets should be added to the main page, but too many people seem to disapprove. --Long 06:54, 29 September 2006 (CDT)

Pet DP
Is it confirmed that pets do indeed receive DP? It states nothing at GuildWars' official page, and nothing at Game updates/20060714. &mdash; Galil  20:34, 15 July 2006 (CDT)

There is much testing that has been shown by multiple parties here:http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=410690. Pets do now receive death penalty. Gaile denied knowledge of this as part of the update, so it is possibly a bug.

It is also inconsistant in that they only get DP in pvp and do not in explorable areas or missions. So I think its likely that this is a bug.

Unfortunately, it is NOT a bug. I repeat, NOT a bug. Gaile posted again in that thread, confirming that pets are supposed get DP in PvP now, and also stated, unfortunately, that in a future update pets will get DP in PvE as well. Kinda harsh blow for those of us who play pure beastmaster...after all, the pet IS the beastmaster's weapon. What other class has so many disadvantages with their weapons? Warriors don't have to bring "Equip Axe" and "Repair Axe" to use their axe and keep it around. Assassins don't have to worry about their daggers "dying" at all, much less getting a death penalty AND at the same time blacking out their entire skillbar. Warriors can use their axe on any target they want, whenever they want. Compare that to a beastmaster, who has to attack a target himself to get the pet to attack it, then has a hard time getting the pet to attack anything else. Additionally, when a warrior is forced to flee, his axe flees with him...it doesn't stay behind while surrounded by a dozen enemies. To the one who asked me for proof, I repeat, Gaile has confirmed this in this thread:http://forums.gwonline.net/showthread.php?t=410690, bottom of page 23.


 * On the other hand, you cannot speck into Swordsmanship and Axe Mastery and use both weapons to attack at the same time. - 02:10, 18 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Which is, unfortunately, an ability which isn't enough to make up for all the disadvantes.
 * That'd be a subjective call. I just wanted to make sure both sides of the argument are presented. - 03:57, 18 July 2006 (CDT)
 * That is totally subjective. Your "weapon" is a mobile weapon freeing your ranger from the need to charge into the midst of battle. No sword or axe or hammer or dagger can continue to attack a target while you're activating skills. --Ab.Er.Rant @ User:Aberrant80 (msg) 05:24, 18 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Sure they can, as long as you're activating stances or shouts, which are the types of skills most likely to be activated by a beastmaster. Furthermore, that still doesn't seem enough of an advantage to make up for having a weapon that can be killed, which in turn will make it easier and easier for it to get killed later. And for a pure beastmaster, without your pet, you are UNARMED. Sure, you can fire your weapon for a few points of damage, but you won't be killing anything. An axe warrior, sword warrior, assassin, etc DOES NOT HAVE TO BRING 2 SKILLS TO KEEP FIGHTING.
 * Perhaps this will force players to keep their pet alive rather than letting just die over and over again. It brings values to skills such as Call of Protection and Heal as One. And while you may not have to bring 2 skills to keep fighting as another class, you do have quite a bit more life if summed together, allowing you run/escape if necessary. In a last ditch effort, you can just keep spamming Comfort Pet and bring your pet back to life albeit at 60 dp. You can semi-sorta-tank this way. That being said, I do find pets are still a pretty weak option in the late game for damage dealing. And this update certainly doesn't help. --Ryard 22:20, 18 July 2006 (CDT)


 * On pets attacking while the Ranger does other things: Don't forget preps, spirits and traps.  Not only will pets continue to attack while you are performing these three very key Ranger functions, pet attacks can be activated while you are doing them, thus mitigating one of the downsides of the Ranger.  2 seconds to prep time doesn't look like much on paper, but in a protracted fight (which is something you're playing for as a BM), those downtimes add up.  Also, note that no other class can attack (disrupt/poison/cripple/bleed/kd) one target while they AoE another, or enchant themselves, etc. (Semantic 00:06, 27 July 2006 (CDT))

Auron Bushi: Actually back when I hade my Elder Crab is was doin pretty good with a 11+1 AXE 10+2Tactcis 10 BeastMastery 2strength build. Healing Sig. Triple chop (elite) Dismember, Comfort Animal, Charm Animal, Bonetis Def, Discipline Stance, Rez Sig. deals quite a bit of dmg and you can exchange Bonetis defence for ne atack skill be it pet or weapon based.
 * pet DP, while consistent, is a bit of a blow to anyone not spending 4+ skill slots on pet skills. perhaps if there was an easier way to heal pets beyond Comfort animal? maybe this is comming in Nightfall, or maybe it is just Anet reballancing non-players like they did with MM. this game is getting less and less fun as they reballance stuff thou. now my steel-plated warrior folds like a napkin against elemental damage, my MM can't keep more then a mediocre army active, and my wolf is unable to stand any damage without shouting at it constantly. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 11:50, 27 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Folds like a napkin seems a bit of an exageration, when the change only affects damage absorption. A warrior still has a base AL of 80 (or higher, a strength build could have 100) vs elementladamage, with a shield providing up to another 16, and a sword hilt another 5.  That's a potential 121 AL without using skills to boost it.  I thin pet DP is a completely different ballgame - it is giving a penalty to the pets that equates to being n a party, without providing the means to protect and heal like a party member (or resurrect).  If they make standard rezzes work on pets, include pets in the party (as in affected by Watch Yourself, Heal Party etc...) then it's starting to sound like a good idea.  Comfort Animal needs a change; I'd say make it a 0.75 casting time spell, at 5 energy cost; no longer resurrects, instead it heals 1 condition.  Charm Animal now becomes a resurrection as well, but stays at 10 seconds to cast.

--Epinephrine 09:51, 4 August 2006 (CDT)

What about MMs? Our main weapons have constant health degen and take double damage from holy damage! I'd rather be able to rez my minons with dp then have them have constant health degen. And rit's spririts don't even move!--TheDrifter 13:30, 27 December 2006 (CST)
 * Please don't discuss Minions and/or Sprirts vs pets here. They are all different and like apples to oranges.  Each has their strengths and each has their weaknesses.--[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  13:39, 27 December 2006 (CST)

Ranger only?
I don't agree with this change. It's not true first off (Ranger typically refers to a primary ranger) and is inaccurate, since there are stages of the game in which you can have the Charm Animal skill on your skillbar without having a ranger primary or secondary. In fact, you can even have an active pet without Charm Animal on the bar, as a result of trying new secondary skills and replacing the Charm Animal skill (though the pet will disappear on zoning). I've removed this change, as it seems pointless - the true restriction on having a pet is having the Charm Aimal skill, not being a ranger. --Epinephrine 11:00, 31 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I agree with your disagreement. d-: - 12:37, 31 July 2006 (CDT)

XP testcase
So, to get this a bit clearer. I'm just gettin my phenix to dire, I tank two minos outside elona and it pecks 'em to death ;) it's now lvl 11, and as soon as it's lvl 12, I count the minos.

assumption: as pets are allies, they have a party size of ONE, and therefore no double XP. (no idea what happens if you have two pets in a group...)

the premath: a lvl 12 will get 100+4*(20-12)+16*(20-12)=252XP (which is under the limit of 280XP)

to complete lvl12, you need 8k XP.

8000/252=31.75

if my assumption is right, birdy will kill after reaching lvl 11 approx. 31-32 minos

come birdy, lets go pecking :D

HJT 07:04, 3 August 2006 (CDT)


 * If you look above here you'll see a link to an experience checking thread on GWG (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92406). It's pretty compete, checking various levels of pet against a few types of foes. Unfortunately the relationship doesn't seem as simple as hope, possibly affected by level differences to slow the rate of XP gain for pets when facing foes of much higher levels.  --Epinephrine 08:17, 3 August 2006 (CDT)


 * well, i just do this test, possibly up to lvl20, and then i *hope* to find an answer ;) HJT 08:32, 3 August 2006 (CDT)

pet speed
In the august 25 2005 update I founs this:

* Pets: Increased pets' run speed by 20%; increased pets' armor to 80 at level 20

The armor is clear and obvious, but the speen isn't. Does this mean a pet actually runs faster than a human? this would make kiting pointless...-213.84.52.71 02:45, 26 August 2006 (CDT)


 * hm, as far as i see it (beeing myself a ranger) the pet normally has the same speed as you. but it is always behind you. if you now start attacking a foe, it is definitly faster, imo HJT 04:35, 30 August 2006 (CDT)

Auron Bushi i'm pretty shor pets move faster than humans i know my Old Reeflunker could run down a monk in while running...The deal is the pet tries to keep up with you often geting stuck behind you. i usually switch to a bow so the pet gets ahead of me 1st the begin runing myself
 * yes pets have an innate 25% faster movement speed. If you use a speed boost stance like Storm Chaser, your pet can keep up with you. It's also good for when your pet is dead in PvE, if you comfort your pet, it will run back to you with 25% faster speed meaning it breaks aggro easily. I don't know how effective kiting is vs a pet. They can keep up with you, but they seem to prefer to change target rather than follow you too far.

Fern Lizard
A long time ago in a beta-test far, far away. There used to be a tamable creature known as the "Fern Lizard" a brownish cousin to the Dune Lizard. Anyone ever heard of this. Because I found information about it on several websites. Its not any longer in the game. But it is believed it was during the beta testing of GW. Also Prima guide included a place where to capture them. But prima is known to make mistakes. Its a prophecies beast, by the way --Jade solari 14:43, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Before Retail GW, in Pre-Searing, if you went into the "Across the Wall" area (where the Charr are), there were indeed Fern Lizards (now that area contains Warthogs). Funny how I never noticed their disappearance, until I read your post.  Frostty1 16:16, 29 September 2006 (CDT)
 * There are another two impossible/discarded pets: Pandas and Hippos. I thnk we should note them separately. Mithran 22:24, 16 November 2006 (CST)
 * Added it and others in the Trivia section.--[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  10:16, 17 November 2006 (CST)
 * There are no Panda pets, but Minipets^^ -- Zerpha The Improver 09:25, 8 February 2007 (CST)

Critical hits and other questions
Can pets inflict critical hits, and, if so, do they have the same critical hit chance at N beast mastery as weapons have at N weapon mastery? If pets can inflict critical hits, does the Critical Strikes attribute improve their critical rate? What about Critical Eye and Siphon Strength? Do they count as your critical hits for the purposes of energy gain from the Critical Strikes attribute or the effects of Sharpen Daggers, Way of Perfection, Critical Defenses and Dark Apostasy? Do hits from pets generate adrenaline? Does pacifism prevent a pet from attacking when it's cast directly on a pet, or does it only work when it's cast on the ranger? -- Gordon Ecker 18:10, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Just tested it, pets can't inflict critical hits, so the other critical-related questions are moot unless they add a pet attack or buff that allows a pet to crit. Hits from pets don't generate Adrenaline either. The pacifism question still remains. As for the attack rate, I counted 84 hits in 3 minutes, which works out to around one attack every 2.15 seconds although video editing software would be needed to get the exact value like the bow projectile flight time. -- Gordon Ecker 22:35, 7 September 2006 (CDT)
 * The bear pet has an adrenal skill Brutal Mauling, that costs 4 strikes of adrenaline. So pets can/do gain adrenaline, but can skills such as Balthazar's Spirit and Soothing Images affect Brutal Mauling? The question arises, do pets also have energy? Even though they themselves don't use it, can players use it? See Energy Burn. Lonely Monk 10:41, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

Pets can inflict criticals but they have a range value unlike a bow or sword which will be a certain set number. The higher the rank in Beast Mastery the more often criticals happen. Their base damage range is that of a max bow at 12 Beast Mastery and critical occurances increase with higher ranks. Pets are like a separate player and will not increase the owner's abilities or share them unless a skill is used that does such specifically (like Ferocious Strike will add adrenaline and energy to the owner on hit). If Pacifism is cast on the owner the pet can still attack. I have never experienced Pacifism on a pet before so I can't say if it effects pets at all or not if cast on them. Pet attack rate is abbout ~2.05 seconds unless you have a bear then Brutal Mauling is used which then slows the attack rate slightly depending on the frequency of use (to about ~2.15 seconds). If the owner attacks while the pet is attacking the occurances of Brutal Mauling increase. If the owner stops attacking and the pet continues attacking the occurance of Brutal Mauling will lessen. I don't know where you got the adrenal info regarding Brutal Mauling though I am interested to know. Hope I helped some.  Vallen Frostweaver  11:02, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Brutal Mauling is indeed adrenaline based (as can be observed by boosting adrenaline gain (Infuriating Heat) or cutting it(Soothing Images)); the dependency on attacking is trickier; if one attacks it indeed does trigger; it seems that when one isn't attacking the pet will simply stop using its ability. I measured the speed of a ttack as quite a bit lower than Vallen's figures however, more like 2.15 seconds or so normally (all pets) and 2.6 seconds or so for a bear, normal adrenaline conditions, with owner attacking (thus a brutal mauling every 4th swing).  --74.104.126.73 10:33, 19 November 2006 (CST)
 * I did some further testing. With 12 Beast Mastery, a level 20 Hearty Phoenix against an AL 60 practice target with a hero spamming "Go For The Eyes!" the lowest damage value was 15 and the highest three damage values were 35, 34 and 33. With a 12 Beast Mastery, a level 20 PvP Elder Wolf against an AL 60 practice target with a hero spamming "Go For The Eyes!" the lowest damage value was 17 and the highest three damage values were 37, 38 and 40. If critical hits were being inflicted, the highest damage value would be roughly 40% greater than the second highest damage value. In both tests I killed about half a dozen AL 60 practice targets. -- Gordon Ecker 18:13, 22 February 2007 (CST)
 * And Vallen was right. I just did some more testing with "Find Their Weakness". It was triggered by a 30 damage hit, a 35 damage hit and a 40 damage hit. -- Gordon Ecker 18:25, 22 February 2007 (CST)
 * The non-critical damage range can be determined in scrimmage with Dulled Weapon and the critical damage range can be determined with "Find Their Weakness!". I believe that the critical rate can only be determined with extremely tedious testing in scrimmage with "Find Their Weakness!". -- Gordon Ecker 18:43, 22 February 2007 (CST)
 * Well if you care to take ANet's word for it (see the criticals section), every rank in an attribute adds +1% chance to critical. So if running 16 in Beastmastery that would mean 16% chance to critical before any add on's from GftE! or other crit increasers.  Not that I've tested this but I thought it might be worth mentioneing here.--[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  07:44, 23 February 2007 (CST)
 * Vallen, that's not Anet's word, but that of a writer from the community - and it was full of errors. They're gradually being corrected, but he originally had exhaustion wrong (he wrote: For each point of Energy spent while casting an Exhausting spell, you gain 1 Exhaustion, which lowers your maximum available Energy by the same amount. For example, casting a 5 Energy Exhaustion spell lowers your maximum Energy by 5. - this would imply 25 exhaustion from a Meteor Shower), the rates of attack wrong (added up the modifiers incorrectly), unhelpful advice about AL (recommending that high armour be taken on the areas more likely to be hit, when the bonuses from oteher insignia also are adjusted by the same factor - the chest is 3 times as likely to be hit as the feet, and thus provides +15 rather than +5 health - no advantage is gotten by selecting one piece over another in this way) and I wouldn't be surprised if this was wrong too. Empirical testing of this works out to about1.3 to 1.44% per level, hitting 23% or so at 16 in a weapon (Ensign researched this, a regression fit to it gives these figures depending on the intercept). --[[image:Epinephrine.jpg]] ~ Epinephrine 16:34, 23 February 2007 (CST)
 * My bad. I meant "if you take the writer's word that was posted on ANet's site" instead of what I wrote.  It is strictly speculative and he has made several mistakes (as have others that have posted on their site) but it was still worth mentioning.  Funny how non-official sites sometimes get the information more accurate than the info posted on the official ones.--[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  22:43, 24 February 2007 (CST)

Bug for pet acquisition: Pongmei Valley
In the Pongmei Valley in Factions, there are several yeti with ranger skills that use pets. Now, upon entering the zone, it appears that they spawn as normal, tame-able animals, but with elevated stats (lvl 15, can be a dire tiger or an elder crane). Once you get closer to the yeti in question, the animal turns hostile and becomes attached to the yeti. There is a bug in this area, where one of the normal, roaming pets randomly spawns near the yeti, and becomes tamed instead, leaving the pumped-up pet as a tame-able animal. Although it may be easier to get a black moa or raise a normal pet, I felt i should add this for the sake of completion. The only problems with this method is that you have to do it without henchmen, or they'll tear the poor animal apart before you can charm it. If someone else could verify this bug for me, i would be eternally grateful ^^ ~Avatarian 86

I've seen it happen... but it's not very common. It's rather rare that the yeti will claim a lvl 3 crane instead of the lvl 15 Dire Tiger (or whatever it happens to be this time) that is hanging around. (Dragon Bloodthirsty 01:46, 4 October 2006 (CDT))
 * First time I went out with my ranger to get the Level 15 Dire Tiger it was available. The key (I think) is not to aggro the Yeti's until you start the Charm Animal on the Tiger.  They appear to only start taming when they are aggroed. hadz 01:48, 4 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Maybe I just got lucky or something, but it happened twice to me. I'm fairly certain that he did charm the other animal, but the lvl 15 animal turned hostile way before I got within range. Too bad I got rid of my tiger for a black moa :P ~Avatarian 86 20:07, 4 October 2006 (CDT)

Nightfall and it's heroes
Anyone know how you go about giving up a Hero's pet to a tamer? or is it done in a different way? does anyone know?Thor79 23:46, 27 October 2006 (CDT)

I caught a White Tiger, can't sell it.. can't change name. No idea. Now I wish I got a black moa. --Silk Weaker 05:56, 29 October 2006 (CST)


 * At least your pet is cool. I took my first three Nightfall heroes, made their secondary classes ranger, and charmed flamingos for each of them.  I have a veritable FLOCK of flamingos attacking when I solo the missions.  Funny, but not very daunting.--Token Cleric 18:58, 30 October 2006 (CST)

I saw a section sawing that a hero's pet cannot reach hearty, but this is untrue. One of my hero's has a hearty flamingo (again annoying that I cannot change it) and i didn't even try to get it as hearty. I think the reason why people can't get it is because they try really hard to get one. By the way I am not the person mentioned there.--17:06, 15 November 2006 (GMT)

Pet Growth
On the main article page it lists pets known to grow and those known never to grow. I realize some will never grow (like the Black Widow which starts at level 20) but has anyone tested the Canthan pets (like a White Tiger) since Nightfall came out? I see no proof of these pets not growing since NF and am curious if there should be another category labeled "Those unknown to grow or not at this time" or something of that caliber. I am interested in testing a new white tiger myself (my current one didn't grow but it's possible they fixed a glitch with Nightfall coming out as my current pet is as old as Factions is) but I won't be able to do this for quite a while. Thanks.--  Vallen Frostweaver  13:42, 3 November 2006 (CST)
 * To further my above comments, I tried it out and verified that Canthan pets still do not grow after the last update. Looks like Factions pets are stuck being small for now.--[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  15:09, 9 November 2006 (CST)
 * They still don't grow, in late december at least, when I trained one for a hero.--Epinephrine 16:28, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * Speak for yourself about small pets- my crab is huge! Or maybe my ranger is just small... &mdash;Aranth 19:35, 9 February 2007 (CST)

I don't even see a pet growing in size at all. Tested it yesterday with the warthog on Istan (Nightfall). And actually I never noticed my old Melandru's Stalkers growing as they levelled up either. Not that I particular watched for that since I didn't knew that is possible. But I've screens of them too from low level to high level and don't see any difference in bodysize. --Birchwooda Treehug 06:46, 21 February 2007 (CST)
 * From what I have noticed, Dire doesn't grow (if anything, they may get smaller). I'm not sure about elder, but I know Playful/Hearty pets DO grow.  Compare those and you'll notice a difference.Cyrogenic 10:57, 21 February 2007 (CST)
 * Dire does grow, and is the same size as Hearty. --[[image:Epinephrine.jpg]] ~ Epinephrine 08:53, 22 February 2007 (CST)
 * Which ones grow? Warthog obviously did not. I suppose the Rat does. I've seen a large level 20 tamed one when the low level untamed ones were small. --Birchwooda Treehug 19:28, 23 February 2007 (CST)
 * My impression was that all non-canthan pets grow, but not all at the same rate - Moas for example show it well, while rats and other smaller animals show it less. --[[image:Epinephrine.jpg]] ~ Epinephrine 19:34, 23 February 2007 (CST)
 * It is my opinion that some animals that do grow (or have grown) increase in size by a percent of their original size. As a Moa stands, let's guess at 6 foot tall at level 5, when it's level 20 and grown fully it may stand xx% larger which compared to a Melandru's stalker stands (let's guess again at:) 3 feet taller is a larger amount difference (E.G.: example lvl 5 pet is 6 foot tall + guess 33% growth at lvl 20 = 8 foot tall while a 3 foot tall example pet + guess 33% at lvl 20 = 4 foot tall).  I have no idea what the actual numbers are but I would guess this is why some creatures end up looking larger than others when they grow (like a Bear or Moa) while others don't seem to grow as much (like a rat or melandru's stalker).  I would guess also that this isn't limited to height and also applies to length as well which would be a good reason why Crocodiles seem to get pretty big in comparison to their original size but don't stand very tall at any point since they are so low to the ground.--[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  12:48, 24 February 2007 (CST)
 * Levelled a snow-wolf in Northern Shiverpeaks (Yak's Bend, Prophecies) from level 5 to level 15 and he didn't grow at all either. So to me the growing story sounds like a fairy tale. Until now I haven't seen a single pet being taller on high level than on low level. --Birchwooda Treehug 22:17, 13 March 2007 (CDT)

I have a Warthog for both my hero and myself, and my Warthog was a lot smaller before level 15 while the hero's pet was level 15. So it is not a fairytale, it really is so. Some pets grow.
 * Bring a proof, pls. A subjective impression isn't and that's the way how fairytales continue to exist. As you see on the pic I posted here, the warthog did not grow at all. --Birchwooda Treehug 07:21, 18 March 2007 (CDT)


 * The pic does not convinces me. the two parts are from the same trip, right? take him back in and out of an outpost, only then the chance should show. Foo 07:25, 18 March 2007 (CDT)
 * [[Image:Boar lvl20 boar lvl5.jpg|thumb|Level 5 and 20 Comparsion]] Nice. Did that and it was indeed larger than the low level one. Thx! --Birchwooda Treehug 11:49, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

If you want proof, simply compare it to a Warthog that wanders around in the place that you captured yours, and you'll see the difference. If you train it normally (not death levelling it) then it will grow.

Pet Evolution
If I may be so bold. Based on the discussions here, it is my assumption that evolution is simply based on how much damage is done per level. Being a student in a college game design program, this makes the most sense to me. The programming leads don't want to overload their programmers with overly complex mechanics. Therefore I believe the simplest explanation is most likely to be correct. Damage per level seems to be a simple enough mechanic to me.--Greevar 21:10, 27 November 2006 (CST)
 * IDD. Foo 00:37, 28 November 2006 (CST)
 * That's a good premise, but I believe the determining factor is the amount of damage taken by the owner (or ratio of damage taken by the two combined). If the owner takes most of the damage, the pet becomes more aggressive, and vice versa.  This seems to be the simplest explanation for the evolution options available:  1) more health for a pet that tends to take more damage than its owner, 2) less health but better attack damage for a pet whose owner is consistently in danger.  My own experiences evolving pets bears this out.--Semantic 11:09, 28 November 2006 (CST)

Well, I just finished evolving an aggressive lion from level 12 to 15 and when I was finished, it was dire. I use a combination of skills that work similar to a spike attack. Feral Lunge, Predatory Pounce, and Enraged Lunge to dole out damage. I also used Symbiotic Bond and Call of protection to keep my pet alive and Call of haste to keep his DPS without skills as high as I could. This leads me to believe my previous theory. Disagree if you must, but it worked. Greevar 19:40, 28 November 2006 (CST)


 * These things may have changed, but in the work put together by Jenosavel and myself we tested the forces acting on pet evolution. Using the same build and enemies, we levelled pets using the same set of skills, following a pattern for Dire evolution.  The difference being that in one instance, after every level, the pet would be taken out and allowed to die in poisoned water.


 * "To test this, a pet was raised to level 10 as an Aggressive pet with all variables remaining constant from my previous successful Aggressive pets. This included the pet being forced to deal 100% of the damage dealt to enemies. Then, it was taken outside of the Temple of the Ages and made to stand in poison until it died. Once dead it would be revived, allowed to naturally regen its health, and then killed again the same way. Rinse, repeat. Upon turning level 11, the pet was Playful rather than Aggressive. The same test was repeated with a second pet, only this time the pet was not allowed to regen to its full health before being poisoned again. Although it sustained the same number of deaths, it took considerably less damage. Surprisingly it still came out Aggressive."


 * As you can see, the sole thing that varied in this experiment was the amount of health loss the pet sustained. The amount of damage it dealt should be relatively constant, since it always faced level 10 minotaurs, and was taking no damage from them (via Call of Protection, Symbiotic Bond etc.) and with a fixed experience gain per foe should have killed the same number of foes.  The amount of health loss (not damage though, as poison isn't strictly damage) but not death count (since those were the same) would seem to be important - though of course typically death count will be related to the amount of damage taken. --Epinephrine 14:09, 18 December 2006 (CST)
 * So are you saying that it looks like your experimentation on evolution shows that health lost/not lost will determine how a pet evolves? I missed if your testing had the same number of deaths or not.--[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  14:27, 18 December 2006 (CST)
 * Same number of deaths, approximately same amount of damage dealt/enemies killed outside of that, varying health loss. Obviously damage may play a part as well - Jenosavel's impression was that there are two forces at work; damage received driving the pet toward Playful/Hearty and damage dealt driving the pet toward Aggressive/Dire. She also repeated the same test delivering heals to the pet (with no damage dealt to it, simply healing with pet at full while levelling) and this pet progressed to the Aggressive as with the one having received no damage.  This was to test the theory that healing caused the playful shift; that impression seems to be a function of the damage taken, not of the healing received.  We tried to be thorough.--Epinephrine 21:10, 18 December 2006 (CST)
 * Hmm, that sounds like it's only a matter of damage taken then that determines evolution. I wonder then that if your pet takes x damage before it's evolution that it becomes aggressive/playful and then does another calculation for the next but breaks it into 3 categories or if it continues.  That would make sense why without damage reduction skills why Dire has been tougher to get as higher level enemies deal more damage.  I've been reading recently how some people have leveled their pets before charming using a weaponless/damaging-skill-less hero with only a res skill next to a res shrine and the player being naked and constantly dieing from the future pet attacking them as it levels from the player's death then charming it when they are ready.  About 30 minutes yields about 8 or more levels and every time a Dire pet is the result when fully evolved so far.  This makes sense as the pet doesn't take any damage in the process.  So then if the pet wasn't taking damage and became aggressive then started taking damage the result should be Elder I would think which also coincides with our previous experiences of trainging in one method then reversing methods for an Elder pet.  Do you have any remaining theories that may not be reliant on the damage a pet receives determining the evolution type?  The question still remains how a pet can stay as aggressive or playful then.--[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  07:48, 19 December 2006 (CST)
 * Actually, I think the pet needs to do damage, not just fail to take damage. No evolution is observed if the pet is dead for example (I've levelled pets this way, where the total damage taken by the pet is pretty low, but it dealt no damage - they end up unevolved).  I suspect there are two sliders, one is damage taken, pulling toward Playful/Hearty, one is damage dealt, pulling toward Aggressive/Dire.  One could test it by protecting a pet from all damage (maintained enchants, symbiotic bond etc...) while not allowing it to attack I suppose or reducinng its damage a great deal (Life Attunement, maybe other ways to prevent it dealing damage - Iron Mist on enemies and kill with lightning damage/degen?)  It should be possible to raise a pet while not allowing it to deal any damage, yet suffer none as well, and I'd be willing to bet no evolution happens.  --Epinephrine 13:08, 19 December 2006 (CST)
 * Seems very likely to me that the case is as Epinephrine just purposed: damage dealt versus damage taken. It's the only thing that makes sense to me. Take note that a wild animal you've yet to charm couldn't possibly work with damage dealt versus owner damage like many people seem to think it is. The only factors it would have are damage dealt and taken. I just recently leveled up 6 tigers by letting them kill me, not hurting them at all; all of them became Aggressive at level 11 or 12, and all became Dire at level 15. Capcom 16:59, 3 January 2007 (CST)

From Jenosavel (who worked with Epinephrine): Smallest size: Unevolved Aggressive

Intermediate size (barely noticably so, but larger than the previous one): Playful Elder Cyrogenic 16:09, 22 February 2007 (CST) Large: Dire Hearty

I have a question about evolving a pet into the Elder form. I recently trained several pets first to playful and then I tried to get them to Elder by training them at the Minotaurs outside the Ice Tooth Cave. I used a combination of Symbiotic Bond and Call of Protection to prevent the damage to the pet, but even so it was rarely attacked anyway. The pet got maybe 10 to 15 damage during training, and the pets were the ones defeating the minotaurs (using pet attacks). Still, the pet got Hearty when it finally levelled up. Multiple tries all resulted in the same evolution: Hearty, rather than Elder. So what am I doing wrong? If i should train aggressive first, then modify the statement that it doesn't matter which one you do first.
 * My suggestion would be to go for aggressive first, and elder second not because it strictly "matters" but because it would be a safer bet. General observations agree that pushing a pet towards hearty is much easier than towards dire. If you get an aggressive pet, it would be trivial to push it back to elder simply by letting it get pounded on by the mobs during the normal course of playing. My guess about what is going wrong with your pets is that (assuming there are two variables tracking damage taken and damage dealt), by the time you switch to aggressive training, your pet might have been already pushed too far into hearty evolution to a point where it cannot be pulled back into "Eldership". You are doing the switch as soon as it hits level 11, right? Even if you do, it is my belief that your pet might have accumulated enough damage to net several playful evolutions. So, the training order should not matter if you are able to time the switch precisely. However, since the exact mechanics behind the evolution (and if the general consensus is right, the amount of damage required for "playfulness") are not known, going for the aggressive first would seem to be the safer course of action.--Ishmaeel 06:47, 8 March 2007 (CST)
 * So might it be a good idea to add this advice to the guide?
 * The above is simply my personal guess and I have not tested it extensively. I also did not see any mention of this theory elsewhere. It's just that I ended up with several unevolved and hearty pets while going for elder and thought that defensive and offensive evolutions could be tracked separately. However, I might be wrong, it really might not matter, and you might simply be switching the training style too late. Still, going for aggressive first would be more sensible because if the pet does not turn aggressive upon hitting level 11-12, you won't need to waste any more time with it and can simply start over earlier. If more people agree with it, we could add the advice to go for aggressive first.--Ishmaeel 06:44, 9 March 2007 (CST)

i have experimented a bit more, by training a pet to playful first. Then I let it deal damage in a scrimmage match for about 2 hours (no damage recieved), then trained it the dire way at the minotaurs, but even with that much damage dealt, it still turned Hearty. So if you want an Elder pet, you'd better make it aggressive forst, because the other way round won't work.

After training a pet first to aggressive (which worked ok) and then to hearty (to make it Elder), I have gotten an Aggressive Lynx for my ranger. Is it really ok to keep this guide to Elder here, when it clearly doesn't work that way?

Damage type of non-Prophecies animals
So has no one bothered testing the damage type of them yet? It seems really odd to me no one did this for Factions animals by now... Capcom 18:10, 6 December 2006 (CST)
 * Yeah, I really mean to, I just haven't gotten around to it :P I did a lot of GvG in Factions, and I'm still unlocking in Nightfall, so spending hours watching pets attack isn't that tempting.  I'm sure I'll blitz the bunch of them sometime if nobody else does.  --Epinephrine 19:51, 6 December 2006 (CST)
 * Had a bit of time, knocked off a few; I just tamed a Jahai rat to test as well, and hopefully will get the others done today/tomorrow. --[[image:Epinephrine.jpg]] ~ Epinephrine 17:03, 25 March 2007 (CDT)

Moved from page
"*USER:Boris Perimov: Tamed a Hyena in The Alkali Pan and I didn't have the henchmen flagged back far enough, managed to tame it just before it died, funny thing was he was called Yorick, possibly a reference to Shakespeare's Hamlet quote "Alas poor yorick I knew him well" Admins feel free to put this where it needs to go"

Blastedt(Talk) 16:31, 7 December 2006 (CST)


 * So does this mean that if you charm a pet right before it dies, it gets named Yorick? --Curse You 02:52, 9 December 2006 (CST)
 * Dunno --Blastedt(Talk) 11:24, 9 December 2006 (CST)


 * Now THAT'd be cool. Mightywayne 23:57, 29 December 2006 (CST)

Energy
Do pets have energy? And if so, how much? I know it's not really of major importance but I was just curious.
 * That's an interesting question. Their maximum energy can be tested in scrimmage with enough synchronised castings of Energy Burn, and their energy regeneration can be determined with Wither or Malaise combined with other degen skills. -- Gordon Ecker 04:41, 15 February 2007 (CST)
 * More easily? determine their energy regen first, put the correct amount of degen on them to have 0 regen, then energy burn and count the energy. --[[image:Epinephrine.jpg]] ~ Epinephrine 07:39, 15 February 2007 (CST)

Gaille: Pet Controls on the way
Source for information contained here: [] (Quoting Gaille) "With that in mind, we are beginning our next round of internal testing. Some of the things we’ll be looking at include:


 * Paragon diversity and balance. Once we’ve had more time to see the most recent changes in effect, we’ll see if further changes are needed.
 * Good PvE options for Mesmers.
 * Bow skills for rangers.
 * Ranger pet adjustments. We're pleased to say we have a rudimentary version of pet controls up-and-running on our test servers. We’re looking forward getting those into the live game as soon as we’ve examined all of the play balance issues this might introduce.' "

This probably will be when they bring pet DP to PvE, as that would make sense, but it's nice to see that they ARE addressing it, even if this turns out to be a negative from the testing team. At least they are looking into it.Cyrogenic 22:29, 20 February 2007 (CST) Are they going to try and improve the pet AI soon? ~ Nick Petruzzi
 * From what I understand, yes. But then, I'm not Anet, so who knows :-)  Cyrogenic 21:10, 13 March 2007 (CDT)

Offensive names

 * Are we allowed to name our pet an offensive name, for example "asshole"? --Chiaro 00:58, 18 March 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm not at home, but iirc, it doesn't let you use words which were marked for the filters. Foo 06:36, 18 March 2007 (CDT)
 * A dude in tombs with me once tried and failed to name his pet Virgin. --Armond Warblade (talk) 14:54, 30 March 2007 (CDT)

Which pet has most health? and which has the coolest skins?
Which pet has more health and which pet do u think has the coolest skins? i want to know the health info for my new build im making and skins... well coz they look kwl!
 * Coolest skin is more a matter of personal taste, I like a bear and a hyena. But for the health, I think all pets have the same health, or else everyone would have the same pet. --[[User:Sigm@|Sig mA

]] 12:25, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Read the * article --[[image:Epinephrine.jpg]] ~ Epinephrine 15:34, 23 March 2007 (CDT)

Critical hits and evolutions again
With some help from our alliance (Eili of GOTS and Arya of SoF) I just finished testing non-critical damage ranges for Elder, Hearty and Dire level 20 pets versus level 20 target with 60 AL; we used a maintained Stone Sheath to prevent critical hits by the pets. The damage ranges were 15-25 for a Hearty pet, 17-29 for an Elder pet and 20-32 for a Dire pet. 600 total hits were observed, 200 per pet - while this is a bit low, it should be enough to sketch the distribution and fix minima/maxima, particularly as they agree with the distributions previously recorded - the minima are the same, and the maxima align with the point on the earlier graphs at which the frequency is seen to drop.

I am raising pets to level 15 to check how much these damages scale, but the fact that level 15 Hearty, Elder and Dire pets have 10, 12 and 13 minimum damages (as per earlier work) suggests (again) that the damage bonus isn't a fixed amount, or at a minimum is scaled by pet level. Confusing the issue is the fact that the upper and lower end of the damage range for Dire shift the same amount, suggesting a flat +3 bounes over Elder, yet the Hearty shows a -2 and a -4; this could be due to a non-integer damage range/bonus and rounding effects, or the use of a %increase as originally hypothesised, though 15% is too large to be accomodated this way - the 32 maximum damage observed for Dire pets is only 3 higher than the maximum for Elder pets - assuming that the maximum for Elder pets is between 28.5 and 29.49 and that the maximum for Dire is between 31.5 and 32.49 the increase would be in the range of 7%-14%. (The very low number of 29 damage strikes observed by the Elder pet may be due to a non-integer damage range (say 17.1-28.6) with the range that is actually rounded up being slim). Unfortunately I am not sure as to the best way to try to determine the exact boost, since the damage numbers may be rounded. Using the base damage ranges however we get limits of:

Dire: lower limit 11%-24%, upper 7%-14%, thus 11%-14% for consistent boost Hearty: lower limit 7%-20%, upper 12%-20%, thus 12%-20% for consistent boost If the amount is the same for both Dire and Hearty, the boost is in the range of ~12%-14% (actually ~11.7%-~14.0%)

These numbers would be somewhat in line with the boosts calculated for lower level Dire pets as well - the overall damage bonuses calculated in the pet guide were in the 10% to 15% range for all the levels 15-20. Averaging the values from the various trials gives a value of about 13.4%, which would be more accurate based on theory and observation than the 15% originally posted, while 15% fell within the confidence interval, it's simply not as good a fit to the data as a value in the 12-14% range would be.

Interestingly, the health bonus/penalty for the evolutions is 60 out of 480, or 12.5% - and this figure would work for the damage adjustment as well. -- ~ Epinephrine 14:33, 26 March 2007 (CDT)


 * Well, finished testing a level 15 Hearty and a level 15 Elder (Thanks Mishkin!) with 200 hits for each (more than needed really given the restricted ranges), damage range was 9-15 for Hearty, 12-19 for Elder. This isn't consistent with a percentage increase, but suggests instead some flat non-integer amount added to upper and lower damage bounds.  I begin to wonder if in fact the damage ranges for pets are based on a 0-15 scale like skills are, and that the numbers will only appear consistent then at 15 Beastmastery.  Since it isn't a % increase (or it would have to be a very odd one, increasing as the pet's level decreased...) the simplest answer is that a pair of constants (for maxima and minima) are added or subtracted. If the same value is added/subtracted from the Dire and Hearty forms the adjustment to the minima is between 2 and 3 while the adjustment to the maxima is between 3 and 4.  It is possible that the designers wished the average damage to increase/decrease by 3, and have used an adjustment of 2.5 to the minimum and 3.5 to the maximum to account for this (as an example) - this would allow for the variability we observe while staying with the idea of constants being added.  More testing is needed, but perhaps sufficient testing will provide enough resolution to determine the values. --[[image:Epinephrine.jpg]] ~ Epinephrine 02:07, 31 March 2007 (CDT)

Replacement skills
It is a GREAT idea to swap out charm animal for other skills, such as the celestial ones or Disarm Trap. I don't know where to put this in the article, or if it's there already. Someone add please? --Frvwfr2 20:45, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
 * It's noted in Charm Animal. 84.229.29.252 05:42, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

Trivia strikes again...
The reference for dire coming from the D&D creature is BS; any idiot could have looked up the meaning of the word. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dire Anyone mind if I remove the note? (This isn't the only time I've seen blatantly incorrect trivia; there must be an epidemic, quineg?) ArcaneApostle 22:12, 2 April 2007 (CDT)