Talk:Defender of Ascalon

Legendary Defender of Ascalon title

 * Note: The content of this talk section has been moved here from Talk:Title --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]]  05:32, 16 November 2006 (CST)

I'm surprise to see lvl 20 in pre-ascalon with title "Legendary Defender of Ascalon". I wonder if anyone know more about this title.
 * Title: Legendary Defender of Ascalon
 * Accusation: Level 20 in pre-searing Ascalon
 * Picture: [[Image:lvl20prec.JPG]]

--Gusnana1412 19:32, 26 October 2006 (GMT +1)

mailed to me and gares &mdash; Skuld 17:56, 26 October 2006 (CDT)


 * I would really want to see what the hover says. Foo 18:08, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

Can anyone confirm or deny the existence of this title? I haven't seen or heard about it in any game updates or in-game. — Jyro X 03:34, 27 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Since the June 15, 2006 update monsters don't gain XP from killing players, so the old "death level" method no longer works. AFAIK there is currently no way to climb higher than level 16 in pre-searing. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 04:08, 27 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Right in general, but for some class combinations, if you skip ALL quests, and do them at level 16, you can reach 17. Foo 04:22, 27 October 2006 (CDT)


 * I successfully leveled a strider up to level 2 after about 12-13 kills yesterday (and gained 160xp for killing it, me being level 1) &mdash; Skuld 04:36, 27 October 2006 (CDT)


 * According to this thread on the gwonline.net forums the monsters do level up again, which makes the title possible. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 07:14, 27 October 2006 (CDT)


 * The title already there (I didnt know when the title comes out) and also lvling from monster is not possible again (correct me if I'm wrong) but you still can lvling monster that you can charm (eq. strider). Here is the complete image from above and censor for the name: http://img195.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gw005censorvp5.jpg . I also succesfull to raise strider lvl from 1 to 3 (get bored n sleepy soon xD) will try to lvl my char with charr first then find motivation to lvling from strider or other xD. --Gusnana1412 14:24, 27 October 2006 (GMT +1)


 * Umm you edited out the name of the person. But in your chat window your whispering this user and forgot to edit their name there too :p --SK [[Image:Warrior-icon-small.png]]  10:35, 9 January 2007 (CST)


 * Uh..anyone Nottice Something missing From this picture? For one Wheres the character who took it? Yes he could be in First person...HOWEVER I realized something they changed the look of the skillbar after nightfall release and this picture has the old skillbar! I think this Proves the picture is false ~ Zero rogue x 04:10, 28 October 2006 (CDT)


 * I just tested out the title thing by leveling up a warrior from level 1 to level 5 in Pre-Searing and I did not see the title track. The survivor title track is there but there is absolutely no Legendary Defender of Ascalon...This is probably a nice make-up imo photoshopped from Legendary Survivor, Defender of the Kuzicks/Luxons and Protector of Ascalon. ~ [[Image:Expert's_Dexterity.jpg|24px]] Sylv  (Talk | Contributions) 15:18, 27 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Protector of Ascalon?? Anyway, what makes me suspicious is the "legendary" for a (1) rank. But who knows. --Xeeron 17:30, 27 October 2006 (CDT)


 * My bad I just invented a title but you get the picture. I'd delete the Defender of Ascalon title but I'd rather have a confirmation from someone else also first. | Proof#1~ [[Image:Expert's_Dexterity.jpg|24px]] Sylv  (Talk | Contributions)
 * I don't believe this is a real title and it should be taken out unless real proof can be gotten. This seems like a very good photoshop edit to me. — Jyro X [[Image:Darkgrin.jpg|25px]] 21:19, 27 October 2006 (CDT)


 * My friend has a level 10 pre-searing char and the title does not show up in her hero window. --Karlos 03:43, 28 October 2006 (CDT)
 * After questioning a number of people in pre-searing I believe the title dosn't show up until level 10-12. I have asked three seperate level 15 characters in pre-searing and they all confirm it. I am working on reaching level 12 to get a screen shot to prove it, but this title should be placed back up on the site. --Guest 18:43, 28 October 2006 (CDT)

This title is real. I have it in my title track. I am level 14/20. It reads Defender of Ascalon Title Track (no title earned). When i mouse over it says. You will earn the title Legendary Defender of Ascalon if you reach level 20 prior to the destruction of Ascalon. And I know God Anti-- and they have the title also although I was not the one to post that screen shot.


 * I Just made a Character in Pre-searing and began asking around if anyone has this title. I asked a lv10, Lv13, lv11, and two lv14's It seems that this title IS real! It appears when you reach lv14. ~ Zero rogue x 02:49, 29 October 2006 (CST)


 * I don't believe it. We all know Anet, and their sense of humor. If something like this did exist we would of heard about it alot more recently and it would probably have some sort of joke name. Don't you think it's fishy that ever word in that is from a different title? It's also a little convenient this came was posting around the same time Nightfall was released. Twenty missions. I bet I know where the 14/20 came from on that picture Skuld put up. And why 14 anyway? Since when do titles appear mid-way through? Don't they appear... at the start and at the end? Alt F Four 06:09, 29 October 2006 (CST)


 * I completely agree with Alt F Four. I believe this is a nicely made photoshop and I had the 14/20 thing from nightfall missions in mind as well as the title name coming from other titles. In any ways, unless this God Antipowers guy shows up in a district wielding the so-called title, I will not beleive this. Also, how come the first information concerning this title was talking about level 5? I tested it and now we say 14. What's even more weird is that the we have an unsigned message saying he got the title track 14/20 made by KindlyHero which is a newly created account with contributions mostly related to this title track (see contributions here). Before that message, we have another person confirming the title but this person signed as Guest: a page from wiki talking about guest invites. When watching over the history, I realize that the person who did this modification is also a newly created account whose contributions are only about this title track (See contributions  here). Isn't it a bit weird? or is it just a mere coincidence? That same Guest person then requests the title to be put on the site again without any clear proof. So what is this? A bunch of friends who tried to do a bad trick in Wiki? Listen I don't want to sound rude or whatsoever but if a clear stable proof that this title track exists is not provided, this title won't be showed up on the title page as Wiki is made of facts not rumors or bad tricks. Until then I will try to contact that God Antipowers person for him/her to show me his/her title. Enough of these games.
 * ~ [[Image:Expert's_Dexterity.jpg|24px]] Sylv  (Talk | Contributions)


 * Kindly is the guy I talked to ingame &mdash; Skuld 11:14, 30 October 2006 (CST)

My conversation screen-shot and edited the name of the char player, I use mspaint and no photoshop.
 * Conversation 1: http://img127.imageshack.us/my.php?image=proofconv1yr6.jpg
 * Conversation 2: http://img108.imageshack.us/my.php?image=proofconv2wf7.jpg

For more concrete prooft, if there anyone here on guildwiki have good contact with NCSoft support, please ask them and put their reply here. For more info for the player name, contact me in game and state the purpose why you want to contact him/her. (Note: I'm not God Antipxxxxx friend and I didnt ask permission to put his/her char/title in here). My char on pre-searing only lvl12 and dont show any title progresion for the defender title, it is possible the title will show up only when your char reach some lvl (bigger than lvl12). Note: I think this title is not for "normal" player and lvling more than lvl 12 in pre-searing is a hard work and need a lot of patient and time. Additional note for Sylv, I dont know if you already asking permission to put player name in here. If not I do prefer you change it. --Gusnana1412 22:09, 29 October 2006 (GMT +1)


 * I spoke with a level 14 Monk/Warrior in Pre-Searing who confirmed that he had the title track. - Greven 15:50, 29 October 2006 (CST)


 * I have sent screen shots of the title track to admins. This is KindlyHero I am new and I never became a member because you guys always beat me to the new info. Well finally I have some This title is real. When it appears I'm not sure. But I do know I'm level 14 in pre searing and i have this title in my track list.

Now I'm level 15 and the title still isnt earned yet but it says 15/20. Conspiracy theorizes all you want but this title is real.


 * Of course it is real, there have been screenshots and confirmations by mulitple people. The fact is the title appears at level 14 while in pre. This title was probably put in as a joke by A-Net or as a gift to people who spend their lives in pre and can't get other titles. The last screen shot posted above seals the deal, people who say this is all one big hoax have probably never even bothered to look into it. This title should be posted immeditly by the numerous confirmations and screenshots that are shown. Many things on this site can be altered or changed without this much confustion, so the idea that people would go to such great lengths is silly. Ever hear of Ockom's Razor, the simpiliest explantion tends to be the best one. Well there either is a title or a big conspiracy theory involving hundreds of people trying to fool Guildwiki. Also Sylv, some people are not as good as making links, but that should not dissuade you from the truth or blind you to knowledge.

I've added the title back because no one else has done it. -- (talk) 02:23, 31 October 2006 (CST)

Well honestly this title seemed like a total hoax at first but then some people gave additional prooves and confirmed the existence of the title track so don't see me as the big bad blue guy. I just requested for additional confirmations because this whole thing was way too suspicious to my eyes (see my last post). We have them and the thing is closed: it appears at level 14. ~ Sylv  (Talk | Contributions)


 * There have been no proofs beyond the initial two screenshots&mdash;all other screenshots are from the same place by the same character. I have no opinion on whether this should be in the article or not, but it would be misleading to say the existence of this has been proved beyond doubt. &mdash;Tanaric 13:00, 31 October 2006 (CST)


 * I agree, and furthermore, I would have it off the article for now. if someone wants to proove it, make a note in this talk page, saying when we could all come and see it at a presearing id. there will be enough knows editors here to respond in time and vouch. Foo 16:08, 31 October 2006 (CST)


 * The problem is that there is only one person known to have this title, and that is God Antip-. People do not have this title becuase it takes over 2000 hours of gameplay, becuase killing Charr Bosses at high levels grants very little experince and Death Leveling is 10x slower. The best way for the editors to confirm this is to make a character in pre-searing and level up to 14. That way the evidence will be there for you to see and share among yourselves. I am working on trying to get the title (lvl 11 at the moment) and let me tell you I will probably reach level 20 by the time Guild Wars 4 comes out becuase it takes so long.


 * I didnt notice if my char lvl 12 have the title progression, here the SS fresh new also use mspaint to make it smaller (only mspaint). http://img95.imageshack.us/my.php?image=anotherprooftif8.jpg
 * I might say this will close this discussion :)--Gusnana1412 14:30, 2 November 2006 (GMT +1)

My main reason for disbelief in this title is the fact that the status bar isn't like the other level-based title, Survivor. Survivor measures in XP. Not levels attained. And it is a well known fact that you do not attain the first rank of Survivor until you reach exactly level 20. So, why should the Defender of Ascalon title be any different? I just think it's really convenient that no one discovered this title until the release of Nightfall and its 20 missions... — Jyro X 12:01, 2 November 2006 (CST)


 * Actually, I have heard of this title b4 nightfall, from Strategyfreaks.com. To get in, all u have to do is submit a cheat for one of their games. I found an invincibility cheat on RS. But the point is, I think it DOES exist. and Death lvling does work, heres my picture of a lvl 2 strider. www.angelfire.com/super2/master8/lvl2strider.jpg Mosrael The Waker 17:55, 8 February 2007 (CST)

This may shed some light on the issue. It's a link to a Gaile Gray chatlog. The relevant part is Gaile Gray's comments near the bottom, interspersed with the yellow Froggie text.

http://img123.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitled2mu3.gif

Gwm 13:08, 2 November 2006 (CST)


 * While that chat log doesn't sway the evidence either way, at least in my eyes, the two screenshots of one character having the title and a different character's hero screen showing progression of the title, added with confirm reports of the title's existance proves the information should stay in the article. If some of you feel so strongly that it is a hoax, it seems to me that this is now a case of innocent until proven guilty.


 * And I'm surprised at the accusing of a new user. Since he went to Skuld and I with screenshots after it was first taken off the title article, most of his edits do deal with the title, but there are so many due to not using the preview button if you looked at the time periods of them, and I was the one that talked him through registering. Paranoia has been around in the past and everytime it shows up, nothing good comes from it. &mdash; Gares 14:51, 2 November 2006 (CST)

Comment for this title not show up in the update or different from other title, I think one of the dev team found out that there are a few player in pre-searing that able to reach lvl 20 with restriction max mob lvl only 10 which make lvl 20 in pre-searing is an unique hardcore player. Also in the time when they notice it, title system already there, so one or more from dev team thought, why dont give a special title for lvl 20 char in pre-searing. It will give them a nice gift/reward for their hard work and time. This title is not intended for all people and I think dev team dont have plan to make this title for everyone nor "driving"(I cant find a better word, sorry >.<) everyplayer to achive it, simple as an Elite title where some small amount of people can and willingly to achive it. Some example like having luxury car on your garage like McLarenF1, where not every people could get it and only certain people know about it and know how to get it. --Gusnana1412 23:03, 2 November 2006 (GMT +1) I had problem accessing or login into guildwiki, sorry for inconvenient :( --Gusnana1412 23:22, 2 November 2006 (GMT +1)


 * Save for Gusnana1412, why is it that all the supportive evidence is posted by people who leave their comments unsigned? Why do people go out of their way to spread bullshit? I say guilty until proven innocent. Removed it from the article until we get soild proof from a major contributor to the Wiki. Sorry, Gusnana1412. You contradicted yourself when you claimed not to have it at level 12 and then posted a screen shot of it. At level 12.
 * See here: 'http://img95.imageshack.us/my.php?image=anotherprooftif8.jpg '
 * And here: '...My char on pre-searing only lvl12 and dont show any title progresion for the defender title...'


 * My bullshit detector is beeping. Point and case. Alt F Four 21:01, 2 November 2006 (CST)


 * And who exactly is a major contributor? Does a sysop have to check every fact before it goes into the wiki now?


 * I strongly recommend that this is left in the article for now. If someone who is level 14 in pre-searing finds that no title track appears then they can post here and we can remove it.


 * Please see GW:AGF  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 03:04, 3 November 2006 (CST)


 * To Alt F Four and other who feel strange about my post, I'm sorry when I post the first SS of Anti, I didnt check my title progression before posting and when I checkit I dont pay much attention. What I remmeber is I have 2 title Unlucky lvl2 and Lucky lvl1 at that time and what I'm doing at that time was excited to ask Anti how can he/she able to get the title. Yes it is my fault why dont I check my title (or prepared a complete report before I post). But if you dont belive me, please ask other people in pre-searing who already lvl 12 or above or Why dont you create temporary char in pre-searing and train it to lvl 12 and see by your self your title progression, If its to difficult for you ask your best friend who willing to create a new pre-searing char. I might made a mistake about the detail, I'm not a perfect person but this title is not a bs nor hoax. Also there are a few SS from other player in Guildwarsguru forum website, here the link: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10070635&page=2 . If one of you need company when lvling and questing in pre-searing you can pm me in game, char name: "Rei Chi" pre-searing or "Gus Nana" post-searing, I'm in guildwars ussually at night (after work) you can try to pm me > 21:00 PM (GMT +1), I play in America region. You might not want to trust me, but you should trust this title exist ;)--Gusnana1412 14:27, 3 November 2006 (GMT +1)

I'm still quite skeptical about the title though those who fight for it do it quite fiercely. So let's stop this useless arguing and get to the point. Some person in this thread said he knew God Antipowers in the game. We could use your help to arrange a meeting for one minute or two simply to meet up God Antipowers and clear this whole discussion. This way, we could confirm the title's existence or not. Yes this is suspicious but let's not speculate so much. If all they want is to prove the title's existence, then all I want is to see the title in person. How about it? IGN: Alexei Dragor ~ Sylv  (Talk | Contributions)
 * I agree. IGN: Jyro X — Jyro X [[Image:Darkgrin.jpg|25px]] 10:12, 3 November 2006 (CST)

Proof was shown to me: I will be working to see when the title first appears. — Jyro X 13:15, 4 November 2006 (CST)

The title has been confirmed. Numerous individuals including me and Jyro X met up in a district with God Antipowers and we saw the title in person. Though the title in question was very suspicious at first, its existence is purely confirmed and there will be no more debates on that subject. However, information concerning the appearence of the title track itself is not yet complete. Here is a screenshot I took as a proof of its existence:. (Don't mind my bad spelling in the screenshot). ~ Sylv  (Talk | Contributions)

Thanks for Jyro, Sylv and others who participate for today(04/11/06) and I'm not forget, thank you for "God Antipowers" cooperation :D. Another Anti SS from me, contain about Anti armor and a bit talk about the armor. Note: SS edited with mspaint and hostit with imageshack.us, warning huge resolution (2032x2022). http://img179.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gw046combinehs2.jpg --Gusnana1412 02:00, 5 November 2006 (GMT +1)

I didn't know where else to ask this, but is it possible to get survivor and this title in any way. I thought about using two accounts but the ressurection at the shrine won't happen unless everyone in the party is dead. So is there another way to get to level 20 in pre without dying?

I've a lvl 13 Ele (without 2nd class) in Pre-Searing with a Prophecies-only account, and she has no title. Well still about 20 charr runs from lvl 14, so either you have to get a 2nd class, finish one of those starter quests, to see the title, or its a mass-fake. --Gib Resahp
 * Definately not a fake unless someone has managed to hack one of the data servers. I believe that you probably have to have a secondary class for it to show up. If it doesn't show up at level 14, take a secondary and then let us know if the track shows up. — Jyro X [[Image:Darkgrin.jpg|25px]] 09:37, 7 November 2006 (CST)
 * Yeah its not a fake, it shows up today. Well i was only testing the death leveling with a Strider, so i'm still level 13, but my deaths are now 443 (before 189). So maybe to see the title, you have to die well 200,250,300 ... times ??? I'll try to do some tests with a lvl 1 char. -Gib Resahp

Actually attaining the title is somewhat difficult for me to believe. I did some analysis on this with a few very critical assumptions (because I didn't want to spend all day on this), but it would appear that if you assume that an enemy that your leveling up can kill a player in an average of 10 seconds the entire time you are leveling this enemy up from level 1 to level 15, the enemy starts at level 1, and the enemy is gaining experience from you as if you were a level 19 from the start of the process. Then levelling up a character from 17 to 20 in presear by boosting the enemies level by letting it kill you would take 245.86 hours. Which is not unreasonable normally, but mind you, the player must intervene to kill the enemy at least once every 17min and 40secs or the process will begin taking longer. Due to the nature of this problem, it seems that it is possible, but doubtful that anyone has done this. Looking at some estimates to more practical times that don't assume the above would push the overall process into 500 hours most likely. I will provide the matlab code on request. -YinTzuSi


 * You might want to ask the only person who has this title so far for some informations on how to obtain the title in the shortest amount of time possible. Apparently, he/she did it in 1 month when I talked to that person. ~ [[Image:Expert's_Dexterity.jpg|24px]] Sylv  (Talk | Contributions) 13:37, 17 November 2006 (CST)


 * I have a level 12 warrior and have the title and have only done the quest from Van the Warrior for the skills and Gwen's Flute by accident and I have <100 deaths.

God Antipowers got the skill through levelling charr in the Northlands afaik, but this is not possible anymore. Rhrez 07:23, 19 November 2006 (CST)


 * Since there is only one person who supposedly has this title, It really is questionable. I seriously doubt it took only a month, if so, there were probably multiple people using the same account. -YinTzuSi

So, can creatures still level up, after this "June 15, 2006" update? Does death levelling still work? And, do pets give XP on their death? 15:52, 26 November 2006 (CST)

A good boost when hunting the charr/pre-searing monsters (AKA getting to lv16) is to death-lvl the Strider which spawns by Barradin's Estate as high as its level can allow (I think this only goes to 5, 6 lvls above you), then charming it as a high-level pet ally. When you death-lvl for experience or if your charr hunting tactics forbid using a pet, take the skill out of your skill bar. DeumReaper 23:49, 7 January 2007 (CST)

More H screens

 * http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10070635


 * http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2170144&postcount=50


 * http://img95.imageshack.us/my.php?image=anotherprooftif8.jpg (gusnana again)


 * http://img76.imageshack.us/my.php?image=defendertitlell8.jpg


 * http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j212/bobert_monduvia/defender.jpg


 * http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n70/mcsumo/defasc.jpg

&mdash; Skuld 10:47, 3 November 2006 (CST)


 * http://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitled3um0.gif Even Gaile dosen't know it exists. Interesting. Alt F Four 18:46, 4 November 2006 (CST)


 * As I already posted in one of the GWG forum threads: What Gaile says about it is by no means binding or compelling proof. I don't understand why people still quote her in cases like this. Very often she doesn't have the latest information from the dev team. When she talks about something she always makes sure to add phrases like "in my opinion", "as far as I know", etc., to make clear that what she says isn't an official announcement. In some cases in the past she was plain wrong. Gaile is a community spokesperson (and she's good at that!), but not a game expert. Her job is to talk to the community, not to play the game, and it shows. In general, her knowledge of the game mechanics and content is less than that of an experienced veteran player. No offense to Gaile, she's doing a great job at PR, but don't overrate what she says about game content. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 02:57, 6 November 2006 (CST)

Just FYI, God Antipowers left Pre-Searing quite some time ago. Entropy 01:46, 5 February 2007 (CST)
 * ... and kept his title. :) --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 03:27, 5 February 2007 (CST)

Guide had 2 errors
... which I removed/corrected:
 * There are Striders near Ashford Abbey, not Moa Birds
 * You can't charm Moss Spiders afaik.


 * You're correct about the Striders. Same bird, different name. Stupid ANet. ;) As for the Moss Spiders, nobody said you should charm them! You should death-level and then kill them! It works, and I'll put it back in --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 10:50, 16 November 2006 (CST)


 * Quote: "You can speed up the process by aggroing more than one foe at a time (but only one of them will level up!), by wielding a vampiric weapon (-1 health regen, they are very rare in pre-searing, but they do exist!) or by repeated life sacrifice (which means you can't go afk)or by using the warrior stance frenzy, which means you get double damage." I found another two "errors" with this sentence.


 * First of all, it says you can sacrifice life with a skill (then I mean life sacrifice, not frenzy) if you are not afk when death leveling. This is correct, but the only skill I can think of for life sacrifice in pre-searing is blood renewal. And to get it if you're not primary necromancer you will have to finish some quests so you can get necromancer as secondary profession. By doing these quests you will then have to death level more at level 19. You might as well mention this in the guide?


 * Second, Weapon upgrade says that purple weapon will not occur as vampiric, since the update 26th April 2006. So you might as well mention that the vampiric weapons left there are either from before that update or exploit items that might have gotten into pre-searing like the article Permanent pre-searing character says in its notes.


 * (Since I'm not a registered user here I'll let you guys edit the article if you agree with me.) --193.75.38.114 22:47, 30 November 2006 (CST)

Theoretical compatibility with Survivor title track

 * 1) Find someone who is already a Defender of Ascalon and still in pre-searing.
 * 2) Get that someone into your party to die over and over by an animal
 * 3) Get that someone to map out (not required step, for additional exp and faster progress)
 * 4) Kill the animal

Additional advantage (aside from getting Surviver) is that the pet gets more exp from killing the higher level dude helping you out, so the pet will level up faster. Main disadvantage is you need two dedicated accounts (with one already being a presearing defender) to accomplish this.

The above is just theorcrafting. Feel free to point out factors I've neglected that makes this impossible or impractical (aside from needing someone already level 20 in presear to dedicate in helping you). - 16:02, 20 November 2006 (CST)
 * Why must your partner be a defender? You could always get a guildy or friend to help out. -DaMan 21:01, 21 November 2006 (CST)


 * Hmm, I had an implicit assumption that anyone who is capable of helping would be someone interested in the defender title also (others wouldn't have sufficient level to be of help), and overall it is more effective to get one to level 20 first so the animal levels up faster. - 21:55, 21 November 2006 (CST)


 * Both people have to die for the res shrine to activate thus mixing both titles is impossible.


 * Any res skills other than the sig in Pre-searing? Or perhaps a pet of some kind? Comfort Animal & clever running might do the trick, although I'm really no expert on the subject.

With the Comfort Animal and the clever running, I think it might be rather possible. I was running westward from Fort Ranik, and I went up the cliff on which Ivor Trueshot was on. Looking down, I saw that my poor stalker was surrounded by a mob of Bandits, still down on the bridge (not attacking the bandits, just standing there), and eventually died, but was in perfect range for Comfort Animal. No clue how this happened, but I'm sure I could recreate that scenario for my own attempt at Legendary. I'll try it sometime. 18:35, 28 November 2006 (CST)

Going on the assumption of having a level 20 friend, and the fact that at level 16 the mobs should be no challenge, how many bosses are there for having the sig recharged? I doubt it'd be enough, though. Since apparently level 19-20 is achievable by completing all quests (could again be wrong), there is effectively a 3 level gap which there needs to be filled without any deaths.

Actualy you dont need both people to die to trigger the res, you'll res if none of your allies are capable of resing you. So just make sure you dont bring any res skill.--TypoNinja 01:36, 29 November 2006 (CST)


 * I think that's incorrect... I've gone to open the gate for a solo-charr-hunter in pre, and then I did the "Across the Wall" quest while I was there. I died, and I didn't rez... The automatic rez with no sig only works with henchmen, I think... I've also been in PvE situations where everyone but 1 has died and that one person has no rez so he had to rezone, etc... 13:26, 2 December 2006 (CST)


 * Going on with that, you see here, the problem is that if you die, your human ally has no rez, he can rezone. You die, ur henchman ally has no rez, he will stand on ur corpse forever, that's why they auto rez with Henchmen. I think they will auto rez only if: #1 everyone is dead in an explorable area, #2 if the only alive people are henchmen without a resurrect. 22:46, 8 December 2006 (CST)

It is impossible to get this title and survivor. With the only rez being sig and not rezing at a shrine unless both people are dead it is not possible. The only way, I mean the only way is to somehow get your pet trapped with one creature that can level attacking it. This is insanely hard, maybe somone will find a location but I doubt how well it works. You also have to be able to rez your pet without aggroing the creature. To level a creature to level 16 takes over 5 hours lets say with a level 16 pet. This is a low estimate to illustrate my point. This means that you have to spend hundreds of hours rezing your pet. A bot program may be possible to do it, but that is illegal and if you use it that much it will be ovious. So while it may be possible.....it is highly improbable, due to the super large amount of time that would have to be speant.


 * How do you know it takes 5 hours? And plus, Comfort Animal has a surprisingly long range. I get my pet trapped running around in Regent Valley all the time, actually, I'm doing it now. 10:47, 10 December 2006 (CST)


 * I know this from attempting it myself and speaking to the only known person with the title, God Antipowers. Are you willing to speand hours trying to trap your pet correctly and keep rezing it whenever it dies?
 * What keeps your pet from killing whatever attacks it? Does it only attack things that you attack first, unlike minions and such, ignoring the things that attack it? VegaObscura 04:16, 31 December 2006 (CST)
 * I do believe he is talking about getting his pet stuck in a particular area (in a place where it can't fight back as well) and letting the monster massacare it over and over and... so this is possible, but might come under bug exploitation.

i did some testing in a scrimmage, and you only get xp the first time you kill a pet. this was further tested when i let a wolf kill my pet bear repeatedly (an aloe seed healed it with orison of healing so my bear did not kill it) and after 80-100 kills the wolf did not level once. 82.17.101.86 05:30, 1 January 2007 (CST)

Some monsters do not level. You may have to test this with other creatures that have been confirmed to level, like Charr, Moss Striders, ect. --Pelius The Seer 14:30, 1 January 2007 (CST)

Now, why did whoever second last edited this (before me of course, it says i edited this page twice :^|) cut off the entire bottom half of this talk section? I was submitting my own edit to the page when it said that it had been edited while I was editing. I'm innocent \o/-- Chuck 20:29, 1 January 2007 (CST)


 * You removed a part of the text yourself with the same edit with which you posted that comment. I reverted the text back. Why are you faking a signature when you are not logged in? Use four tildes ( ~ ) for an automatic signature. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 20:32, 1 January 2007 (CST)


 * Really? I did that? Terribly sorry... I didn't mean to. Must have been an accident. Sorry about the sig too. 58.24.194.160 20:42, 1 January 2007 (CST)


 * No problem. Mistakes happen to everyone. And no one can know everything in the beginning. :) --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 03:05, 2 January 2007 (CST)

Note that Survivor in pre-searing automatically implies Defender of Ascalon. This is because to become Survivor one needs to accumulate the amount of XP needed to become level 20. And becoming level 20 in pre-searing means Defender of Ascalon. So the question "are the two titles compatible" is equivalend to the question "is Survivor achievable in pre-searing". &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.240.234.31 (contribs).


 * Thank you for stating the ovious. Now the question is can you do it and if so how. The only option left is pet leveling on moss striders/charr or any creature that has been confirmed to death level. That is what needs to be answered.--Pelius The Seer 09:53, 11 January 2007 (CST)


 * Just proved it sigh. Pets only give erperice after thier first death. A LvL 1 Strider killed my LvL 5 pet 12 times, which translates into 2400 exp for the Strider. There were no other Striders or creatures around. It is now impossible to achieve both titles at once.


 * Theoretically there may be a way to attchieve both titles, two players are needed, one to death level the monsters and one to kill them after gaining the experiance without dieing. to allow the death leveler to resurect at the shrine the player going for the title must force a disconnect error and then simply reconnect using the new(ish) system when the monsters are at the required level, forcing an error is quite simple if you just shut off you internet connection guild wars treats it as an err=007 i have not tested this yet but i assume it will work~Lil 23:24, 17 January 2007 (CST)


 * You are in error, becuase one of two things will happen. The first is the human player who disconnected will be considored a hench and also rez at the shrine with the remaining human player. Since he is disconnected he wont know. The other is that the game considors the player who disconnected as still a human player and the rez shrine wont activate. Either way you are screwed.--129.21.107.139 17:18, 18 January 2007 (CST)


 * Like i said i hadnt tested it yet, do deaths while disconnected count towards the /death total? if not thers is still hope. Failing that will a disconnected player be treated as a henchman in the way that if all other party members are dead and there not carrying a resurrect will you respawn even though they are alive, if so it will also be possible, but may require reconnecting to force the aggro of the monsters to attack the player not going for the survivor title, and then disconnecting again before they die~Lil 20:39, 18 January 2007 (CST)

Well there was a possibility to get both titles at one time. When you could go to the Guild Hall from Pre you could scrimmage and gain experience, so it is possible for someone out there to have both titles. Concerning going afk, read my post above, you cant have the best of both worlds. Player 1 goes afk, while player 2 attempts to gather Charr and start death leveling.

Situation 1

The player that is afk is still considored a human and not a hench so no rez at the shrine occurs and death leveling is impossible.

Situation 2

The player that is afk is now considored a hench and will rez at the shrine do and will be killed during death leveling.

YOU CANT HAVE one person rez at the shrine while another hides elsewhere.--129.21.107.139 06:23, 21 January 2007 (CST)

The key point here is "was". Not any more. 1. Can't go to Guild Hall while still in Pre-Searing. 2. A.net changed Scrimmages so that players can't get exp in it. Case closed. and going a little back to about deaths while disconnected, you still sometimes get killed even after alt-F4'ing out of the game, the game will count your death even if you're not connected. Maaya 17:26, 21 January 2007 (CST)


 * Just theroy crafting, if you dont go afk and diconnecting does make you move to the res shrine without dying it is possible as you can then reconnect and break aggro then disconnect again to allow you to be treated as a hench, however time consuming and ridiculous this is, if it works it would make the titles compatable... im gona go test soon as i can find a partner

Someone edited the article and claimed that pets do give xp after resurrecting them. Could someone test again? -- (talk) 20:52, 22 January 2007 (CST)

There are two ways to tests this again. Try in in PvE again, takes forever to get just the pet to die without killing the other creature. Or just look what happens with pets in PvP or PvE enemies with pets. Once the pet drops there is no more experience. Whoever edited the article should give proof that they do, I must say the burden of proof is on them so show it works becuase we know the mechanics in PvP and people claims it works the same in PvE.--129.21.107.139 16:07, 23 January 2007 (CST)

Mandatory quests
I'm considering making a Defender of Ascalon character, so I'm just wondering what primary quests are considered mandatory? ("The only exceptions are mandatory primary quests.") I really want to know since I want to make this as fast as possible, even if it's veeery time consuming already. I don't want to accept a reward earlier than I need to. :) &mdash; Stylva  (talk)(contribs) 18:55, 4 January 2007 (CST)


 * I'm pretty sure that would mean the "Go kill the skale" quest at the beginning that gives two skills for its reward, like the Warrior one giving Frenzy and Healing Signet. I do believe the primary skill quests other than the first one give the skills at the start instead of for the reward. --Pax Deorum 03:18, 6 January 2007 (CST)


 * Yes that is correct, you may want to accept all the quests though and complete them as you travel the map for experience, and collect the reward at the end.--Pelius The Seer 12:45, 6 January 2007 (CST)

Controller with Rapid Fire
After talking to a player in the game that had the title, he told me a very useful trick is to use a controller with a rapid fire feature and set it to use Frenzy so that you die faster and don't get an error 059. I have added it as a note to the article. If you think it doesn't belong there and should be kept in the discussion section only, feel free to remove it. He also mentioned it took him 2 months of death leveling every day to achieve the title. VegaObscura 21:38, 6 January 2007 (CST)
 * I would strongly, strongly advise against this. Use of a rapid fire controller could constitute as botting, and count as a ToS violation.  Where do you draw the line for 'botting'? - IMHO, that line is when you use a program to perform any action while you're away from keyboard. 72.139.42.35 12:51, 7 January 2007 (CST)
 * And it would look the same to them as any generic API manipulation script, like au3... which IS against the EULA. Ubermancer 00:12, 11 January 2007 (CST)

It is possible to further increase speed of deathleveling while not afking by activating and canceling healing signet reapeatedly, with the proper timing all hits can be taken at -40 armour i dont know if this skill is avalable to non warrior primarys, although labour intensive it speeds the process up considerably~Lil 20:49, 18 January 2007 (CST)

Change in Aggro Mechanics
Somewhere around the December 20th update, the Charr stopped being as stupid as they used to be. Where before you could pull the castors and such away from their groups one-by-one, this seems no longer possible. Would appreciate someone else looking, and a a few comments on if this is worth mentioning in the article. -Kumdori 17:14, 27 January 2007 (CST)


 * This is correct. Basically, the only way to deal with mobs now is to wedge yourself between them and a wall -- the casters will run around the wall (presumably to not be obstructed), and you can easily kill them there while avoiding damage from hunters and wands. It's somewhat tougher to pull, but not impossible. Moo Cow Extreme


 * I've spent a lot of time lately killing charr groups, and can offer the following notes on caster behavior. First of all, *one* caster kites in circles.  Once in a rare while, if you attack another caster, they will trade jobs - but for the most part, once you identify the kiting caster, you can whack the others without chasing them down.  This holds true even in dual-shaman groups - one shaman kites, the other one stays put.
 * Additionally, apart from Shamans who heal their fellow Charr and thus make everything take longer, the casters aren't really a threat compared to the non-casters. I just ignore them until the non-casters are dead, at which point they usually stop kiting around.
 * As far as shamans, the terrain-block strategy definitely works and is therefore the best. The Shaman will run in a clockwise pattern, and a little experience will reveal the width of the circle.  With a bit of practice it's easy to pull them in places where that circle leads them to a wall, where you can bodyblock them.  Presto, they don't run anymore - but they still think they're running, so they don't fight properly either.  For dual-shaman groups, take out the non-kiting shaman first - they just don't have enough armor to live, even with the kiting shaman healing them. Auntmousie 05:01, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

Legendary Defender of Cantha/Tyria?
Who wants to try to get lvl 20 in the training areas of Cantha and Tyria? It should be possible to death level in shing jea by getting the enemies to attack you and then killing yourself with a vamp weapon (you can get to guild hall while in training). After the first level you will get a skill point and can go to guild hall and get a sacrifice to speed it up.


 * Uhm, you mean Elona, right? Starting area of Tyria is Pre-Searing, and that's where Defender of Ascalon is. As to Shing Jea, it's easily possible to get to L20 before you even leave the island, so dunno what you mean there. Same for Istan, you should be L20 by the time you hit Consulate Docks. Entropy 18:27, 3 February 2007 (CST)


 * There is nothing "Legendary" about becoming level 20 while on Shing Jea or Istan islands (personally, I have 2 chars from Cantha and 1 from Elona that have done that, and I only have 2 chars from Cantha and 1 from Elona!). In fact, if you leave these areas before hitting level 20, it was because you didn't do many quests.  Also, you have access to storage, but most importantly, Expert Salvage Kits, Rune Traders, and Skill Trainers.
 * The Monk listed above (way up there) mentioned he/she had borrowed a friend's expert salvage kit to get runes for his/her armor. This was only possible because of a bug (long since removed) that allowed pre-seering chars to get to their Guild Hall, which gave them access to a Expert/Superior Salvage Kit (or to buy runes from trader).  With those simple runes, a pre char would become much more powerful, considering the extremely small amount of skills available (though GH bug would have allowed purchase of better/more skills at Skill Trainer in GH).
 * Due to all the extreme restrictions placed upon perma-pre chars, getting to level 20 there is legendary. Queen Schmuck 05:03, 4 February 2007 (CST)


 * Everyone by default gets Legendary Protecter of Elona just for having to listen to Dunkoro whine on and on...sorry! --Carnival King 05:11, 4 February 2007 (CST)

First off: yes I meant elona, not tyria, bit of a mess up lol. What I was asking was getting to lvl 20 in the Training Area, you know the place before you even get to the first city, which is Shing Jea Monastary for Cantha and Chahbek Village for Elona. As long as you don;t take the reward for the quest, you can either log out and back in, or travel to guild hall and back. You can then do it over.


 * Ah I see. Well, for Chahbek Village that's a mission outpost, so dying there is game over = no death levelling, can't get to L20. It would be Legendary Defender of Chahbek anyways. As to Shing Jea Monastary, how would you measure exactly where the Monastary ends and the rest of Shing Jea starts? Can't go past Sunqua Vale or something..? Anyways, you probably could do it but I highly doubt there's a Legendary Defender of Shing Jea Monastary. It would be easier than Legendary Defender of Ascalon, anyways, you get better skills and there are henchmen available. Entropy 20:52, 4 February 2007 (CST)


 * I think I know what the person is trying to say - the very first area, before you talk to Togo to go into the city. I am not sure how the game would deal with you being in that area for like 1000 hours, nor if you could quit/logout before finishing it (probably restart at login).  I am also not sure how the fellow students or Togo would react to your suicidal ways (Togo may kick you from the Monastary as a lost cause...).  Would I ever try this if there was a title?  Hell no.  I'd rather go for Ascalon if anything, just because, well, the Legendary Defender of Shing Jea Monestary Playground ...  (how many deaths would it take to death level a lvl 0 foe to lvl 20?)  Queen Schmuck 01:36, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * Ohhh - Monastery Overlook! Well that would be quite a doozy, the mobs are L0 mostly, you have to find a way to remove your fellow students from combat, and...no quitting! Impossible imo >< Entropy 01:45, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * @QUeen Schmuck: You're right: Becoming lvl20 in pre-searing ascalon is definitle much more harder than in the other two campaigns. there's no storage, no guild hall, no high end weapon to get (except for a special precoder item)      No, i think a title for this isn't really a good idea.    But - What abaut "time spiral gate" to pre-searing ascalon, for all characters? This idea sound also not much better, and strange, but it would be a fair trade to get this title reachable everytime, with characters of all campaigns:
 * -There could be an NPC (like the mission starting NPCs from NF)somewhere in Tyria, which teleports you to the outpost ascalon (the pre-searing one).
 * -You are only able to Teleport if you don't carry any weapons with you, no bags, and no armor.
 * -If teleported, you would backdrop to the level you have had before leaving the Tuturial. If you're playing with a character of another campaign, you would start at level 1.
 * -If traveling "back to the Future", you'll regain the level you have had before "your visit".
 * That wouldn't make it easier to reach the title, but that would remove the special circumstances to be able to reach the title. -- Zerpha The Improver 10:07, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * For Factions and Nightfall ANet deliberately decided not to make a tutorial area that is separate from the rest of the game, but one that blends in seamless instead. It would make no sense if they'd now try to impose artificial restrictions to justify a title that wasn't meant to be there in the first place. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 10:18, 5 February 2007 (CST)


 * I don't think there's much point to this suggested workaround as Legendary Defender of Ascalon prevents Legendary Survivor, which IS attainable for any primary profession. There is no title advantage to fix and wouldn't make sense in any field of implementation. Pax Deorum 15:19, 14 February 2007 (CST)

LoL, Legendary Defender of Chahbek Village. Togo got a nice title for Surviving up til Raisu Palace. "Defender of Cantha" 132.203.83.38 15:25, 14 February 2007 (CST)

wowww you can get the special preorder ietm in presearing? -divinechancellor
 * Yes, those game of the year weapons are very nice, gives you a reson to buy them if you have the old version. --72.225.156.131 03:53, 19 February 2007 (CST)

If you accidentally accept a quest...
If you happen to accidentally accept the reward of a quest is it still possible to achieve the title? I can't find any guides that say what happens if you DO make a mistake. Logically, I'm thinking it still is possible, just a bit harder because then you have to go death level some more. So since I've accidentally accepted a reward for an unnecessary quest do I need to restart my character (dyed black *sighs*) or can I just keep going? Matthew Chase 01:33, 18 February 2007 (CST)


 * It'll mean more work for you. Theoretiaclly, you could accept every single Quest reward and then start Death levelling. But it would be ungodly difficult. Consider it this way: every point of xp you earn from Quests now will have to be made up later with that much xp from Death levelling. So you can keep going, but it'll be harder and longer now. [[Image:Entrophic Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 01:48, 18 February 2007 (CST)

Rez shrine is protected
I guess it would have worked to pull the charr to the ressurection shrine, but i believe there are a few NPCs standing there. I haven't done any death leveling, but don't those NPC kill the charr ? or are the charr more powerfull ?


 * I am not sure if they would attack, but I do know they heal. I've seen them heal pets that were only half dead when you get rez at the shrine.  Queen Schmuck 13:47, 9 March 2007 (CST)


 * I'm testing the setup mentioned in the charr death leveling guide (see bottom of the article). It works very well. I lured 6 charr to the shrine (just to try "pancake stacking") 2 Axe Fiends, 2 Blade Storm and 2 Chaots. They finished the archers and the monk at the shrine without any losses. -- Looping 21:34, 9 March 2007 (GMT+1)


 * I've done quite a bit of charr death lvling. My character is up to lvl 17 now :).  You need to bring at least 2 groups of charr in order for them to kill all of the NPCs.  I usually bring 3 groups because they kill you faster.  They should have no problem with the NPCs even if their are no shamans in the group.  Also if you want the charr to kill the NPCs faster it helps if you have you life pretty low before you go within aggro range of the NPC healer.  Then the healer will focus on healing you while the charr kill the healer along with all the other NPCs.

Gwen's Quest
I think we should update this guide to mention the bugs regarding Gwen. If you do NOT take her inital flute quest ("Gwen's Flute") the quest will be unattainable if you leave Ascalon City with a party remember who has completed it (which is going to happen as you continually go north of the wall). Starting Gwen's quest chain makes sense. Suggestions? --Mystisteel 01:53, 14 March 2007 (CDT)


 * Er, go outside without a party member one time? Grab a level 1 spamming "need rez sig quest" and go outside with them?  Not really what I would call bugged, unless you mean you can not get quest ever if you don't get it the very first time you step foot outside the main city.  The party member note is stated here, along with monk primary chars can't get her flute quest.  Queen Schmuck 03:49, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

Total Quest XP
Is there actually anyone here who made the sum of every quest reward? (calculating that you cannot complete every quest since some are for another primary proffession) i would just love to see how mutch this actually is... and from what amount of xp i can start doing the quests to minimize time loss at the death leveling Saelfaer 16:17, 14 March 2007 (CDT)


 * Start accepting quest rewards once you are level 19. Queen Schmuck 19:43, 14 March 2007 (CDT)


 * Good advice but doesn't answer the question asked. I counted it all up, excluding quests you have to do in order to get your first skills, and excluding quests that require a specific profession, and came to a possible total of 9400xp.  Depending on what class combination you choose, you can add around another 1,000xp to that total.  Of course, the xp needed to rise from L19 to L20 is 12,800 which is well in excess of the max possible from quests, so the basic advice stands.  Do quests the instant you make L19, but not before.  It also means that if you accidentally accept a quest reward or two, don't sweat it.  Yes, it means another night deathleveling charr, or another two or three nights killing Striders... but in the larger scheme of things, if one night makes a difference to you, you're probably not going to have the mental stamina to go for this title. Auntmousie 05:35, 29 March 2007 (CDT)

Pre Searing Pet DLing tip!
I have found a way to trap a strider on the res shrine so that it will never lose aggro. Simply tell Gwen to stay in the strider's escape route and she will body-block it so that it can't escape! &mdash; Ebany Salmonderiel (Talk) [ Leave a note] 09:44, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah, okay, if you don't mind the colossally slow non-Charr deathleveling, sure. Auntmousie 06:01, 9 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Death leveling 1 strider to lvl 20 takes over 12hrs. In that amount of time you can have a group of 3 lvl 20 charr, a group of 3 lvl 15 charr and a group of 3 lvl 11 charr.  (exact levels will vary but this shows how much faster charr death leveling is)  Using charr death leveling you can get from level 16 to level 20 in about a month.  Doing it with striders would probably take almost a year of constant death leveling.

Deathleveling with your pet - it *IS* possible!
Kudos to A-net for finally putting in pet controls. You can now deathlevel along with your pet. The obvious benefit here is that your pet stays close to your level - but the real benefit is when you combine this with Charr deathleveling. The Charr can frequently take your pet down during the ten seconds while you are resurrecting - if not every time, then at least every other time. Assuming your pet is the same (approx) level as you, this means you deathlevel 50% FASTER than normal Charr deathleveling.

This works because of the function of the "Heel" command. While your pet is told to "Heel", if you are dead, it will stand on your body. If there are foes within melee range, it will try to run away in a circle very similar to the Charr Shaman's evasion cirlce. If it becomes cornered, it may attack - so either don't pull any warriors, or else let it kill the warriors you pull. (Chaots, Hunters, and Ashen Claws are fine because they do ranged damage and won't block your pet.)

One thing to note: there is currently a bug with the code that handles how a pet's orders revert from locking a target. When your pet has a locked target, once that target is down, its orders appear to revert to whatever they were before - but in fact they revert to "Guard" even if it shows them at "Heel". This is easily enough corrected by switching it to "Guard" and then "Heel" again, thus resetting orders. Just be sure you don't accidentally leave your pet on "Guard" while you go AFK. Auntmousie 06:08, 9 April 2007 (CDT)

There's one thing that I need to know before I even try to attain this awesome title; Let's say I already death-lvled a charr to lvl 20 and I go back to town, when I get back to the charr's place, will it stay lvl 20?


 * I have heard that enemies don't get xp from pets. Or they only get xp from your pet on the first death.  You can probably test this by having some grawls attack your pet while it heels.  They should level up pretty quickly (depending on the lvl of your pet).  Once you leave an area all enemies will be back and will be at their original levels.  So if you death lvl a charr to 20, you better kill it cause if you leave all the charr will be lvl 7/8 when you come back.


 * If you use Comfort Animal to resurrect your pet, it doesn't generate more experience - but if your pet is resurrected by a shrine, it does generate additional experience - for the same reason you do. Oh, and it turns out you can pull warriors - when my pet attacked it was because of the bug I mentioned. Auntmousie 03:21, 11 April 2007 (CDT)

Deathleveling with charr - How do charrs gain levels?
I have read the charr death leveling guide linked off of this page and I know that groups are supposed to gain levels in the order in which you stacked them. However recently I have noticed that they are not following this behavior. I am not sure if it was a recent change (possibly part of the large amount of changes that went out before easter) Today I brought 3 groups to death level. 2 groups had 2 melee charr and a caster and the third group had 1 hunter 1 melee and a caster. I lured the group with the hunter last. I left my computer for a few minutes and to my suprise the group with the hunter was the first group to level up. In fact that group got to level 11 while one of the melee groups was still at level 8. Does anyone understand exactly how charr groups gain levels? In this case my guess is that since the hunter group deals the most damage, (or maybe causes more kills) it levels first. It would be great to completely understand how they level so that I can get them to level as evenly as possible.


 * I don't have an answer but I sure admire the question. Sometimes I get a group of four with no shamans, and I find that if I leave that group intact, invariably it gets the lion's share of the experience - usually reaching my level long before the others have even reached a point where I can get anything from them.  Doing the "usual" 3 groups of 3 method, I've usually seen either a 20-15-11 distribution (one group getting most, one group getting some, and one group getting nearly none) and an 18-17-10 distribution (two groups approximately sharing the lead, and one group still getting basically nothing) ... but so far I haven't detected any patterns based on composition. Auntmousie 03:26, 11 April 2007 (CDT)