Talk:Weapon upgrade

/Archive

Nightfall Notice
I think the notice about Nightfall should be removed. The warning gives the impression the article is only related to the expansion, however there are only two lines where the upgrades from Nightfall are listed, the rest is established knowledge. --Biscuits 06:37, 29 August 2006 (CDT)

Missing Suffixes
I remember there is a "of Earth Magic" for staff. Probably exist for most other caster attributes too. Like the suffix "of BLAH-slaying", they cannot be unlocked for PvP, though I don't know why, when sword etc can. -PanSola 23:22, 20 October 2005 (EST)
 * Just got a Raven Staff of Fire Magic today, so at least Fire Magic suffix definitely exist, and I added it in. The one I got has 11% chance, but I automatically assumes it ranges from 10%~20%.  If people only one confirmed info, then replace the percentage with question mark for the time being I guess? -PanSola 18:18, 21 October 2005 (EST)
 * I'm pretty sure there is a suffix weapon upgrade for each and every attribute. Instead of creating a separate line for each of them, can we list just one line saying "... of : +1  (10-20% chance while using skills). --Tetris L 18:35, 28 October 2005 (EST)

There doesn't seem to be a Focus Core with HSR 20% ( as can be found on Kkraz's Indulgence and all the Straw Effigy )
 * That's because it's an inscription instead. - [[Image:Savio_3_mini.gif]] Savio  20:32, 23 January 2007 (CST)
 * HSR inscriptions max out at 10%

Salvage Chance
Is it just me, or is the chance for salvaging a prefix or suffix not 50/50? For example: At least 75% of the Axe upgrades I have salvaged are grips, less than 25% hafts. Similar for Swords: >75% hilts, <25% pommels. (Note that for axes it's the suffix that has the higher chance, while for swords its the prefix.)

And even more: Among the Axe Grips that I've salvaged, the chance of salvage seems to decrease in the following order: Defense, Warding, Shelter, Fortitude, Enchanting, ... Defense has clearly the highest chance. About half of the axe grips that I've salvaged are axe grips of defense.

Can anybody confirm my impression? If yes, should we mention this in the article, even though we don't have precise numbers for the chances? -- 04:30, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I think that might just be your impression. I seem to have no luck salvaging suffixes while prefixes I salvage all the time.  That is regardless of what the weapon is.  Especially if the weapon only has a suffix, I will salvage crafting materials, I'd say, 90% of the time, while only 10% of the time will I get that suffix.  Whereas if the weapon has a prefix with no suffix, I seem to almost always salvage that prefix and rarely salvage crafting materials.  --Rainith 04:46, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

do certain attribute upgrades exist?
Specifically Strength, Tactics, Expertise, Beast Mastery, and Wilderness Survival. -PanSola 12:53, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
 * No. The article currently implies this with how the description is written.  --Fyren 14:45, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Consider this quote from the Raven Staff article:
 * Note: The linked attribute is random choice, but only between the attributes as listed under Staff. For example, you will never find a Monk Raven Staff with a requirement in Healing Prayers or Protection Prayers.
 * The Weapon upgrade article currently can be interpreted as there are no +1 Healing Prayers or +1 Protection Prayers, which I do not think is true. I'll try to think of something more explicit to replace how the article is currently written, unless someone beats me to it. -PanSola 19:21, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Umm, before I figure out how to rewrite, I need to figure out: are there staff wrappings of Fast Casting, Soul Reaping, Divine Favor , and/or Energy Storage? -PanSola 22:12, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, that just means the "same as swords, etc." is incorrect. It's still true for non-staves.  I have no idea if there are wrappings for those primary attributes.  --Fyren 23:09, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Revised note. Only confirmed Divine Favor and Fire Magic because I personally found them.  Not sure of the rest of the old chart was generated based on educated guess or actual finding of upgrades. -PanSola 23:22, 6 December 2005 (UTC)


 * However---I did get a Tactics +1 16% shield a couple days ago... That being said, it was not max and had a req in strength. O.o  --Carmine 12:31, 22 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Then again, it wasn't half as confusing as the shield of +1 Divine Favor I found a while back! --Carmine 12:32, 22 October 2006 (CDT)

of slaying
The old table used to list each species in its own row. With the new format, there doesn't seem to be an easy way to find out which -slaying has been confirmed to exist... Not until an article is created for each of them and file them under their own sub-category at least )-: -PanSola 12:58, 4 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree, I think we should take that out. As far as I know we do NOT know that there is a "species" slaying weapon for every species. In addition some have different names like Deathbane. I have never seen a weapon of "drakeslaying" or "impslaying" or even "demonslaying" --Karlos 06:23, 5 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Does anyone have a confirmed list? I know I've found: Charr, Undead, Skeleton, Giant, Plant. There are often collector weapons that do extra damage against a species (the weaponsmith in Yak's Bend sells several + vs Dwarf, frex, but they're not actually "of Dwarfslaying", just a mod) but that's not quite the same thing. --Nunix 20:54, 12 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, ...of Dwarfslaying definately exists. My favorite weapon for the Southern Shiverpeaks: [[image:Dwarfslaying.jpg]]  --Rainith 23:04, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Edit - And there is also an ...of Trollslaying mod available too. --Rainith 23:06, 12 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Undeadslaying may have been renamed to Deathbane. I salvaged a Sword of Deathbane and got a Sword Pommel of Deathbane.  --Selflove 03:32, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm confused. Hasn't it ALWAYS been named Deathbane?  -PanSola 19:45, 15 February 2006 (CST)
 * I'm 90% sure I've seen Demonslaying at least once, perhaps only in Factions (I could be mistaken!). Plant slaying is Pruning, by the way. --Tinarto
 * I just got a demonslaying staff in factions, so it exists as of 3rd July 2006 [[Image:Demonslaying.jpg]]

04:21, 25 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Edit: There seems to be a duplicate subheading in this talkpage: --Tinarto [[Image:Tinarto-gold-Monk-icon-small.png]] 04:24, 25 May 2006 (CDT)
 * There is also Ogre slaying, though I don't have a picture to back it up. Saw it earlier in a sword someone was trying to sell.--Mafaraxas 03:21, 30 November 2006 (CST)
 * But what kind of creature is an Ogre? VegaObscura 01:19, 18 January 2007 (CST)
 * Nothing is called Ogre in game, but there are creatures classified as such. See Ogre for details. BigAstro 01:26, 18 January 2007 (CST)

Melee upgrades working on cast spells?
Can someone confirm this? As far as I know it has fluctuated between either rumour, or "common knowledge" without any tests to back it up. Toss a Cruel on a sword or axe and then cast, say, Phantom Pain, and see if the Deep Wound lasts longer. If this is true, it should be mentioned in the article somewhere; it's certainly an argument for condition casters to carry around a sword or two. --Nunix 04:50, 8 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I got myself bleeding with Signet of Agony and transferred it to a foe with Plague Touch while wielding a Barbed sword. The foe bled not 25, but roughly 45 seconds, which is kinda strange, because that is even a lot more than the +33% that Barbed should have caused. I'll do further tests and report. --Fisherman's Friend 05:45, 8 January 2006 (UTC)


 * This time I used a stopwatch to measure it:
 * The duration of bleeding caused by Sever Artery is lengthened from 21 to about 28 seconds (= ca. +33%) by a barbed sword.
 * The duration of bleeding caused by Signet of Agony+Plague Touch is lengthened from 24 to about 42 seconds (= ca. +75%) by a barbed sword.
 * Odd, very odd. The only possible explanation I could think of is that the +33% multiplier is applied twice, once when you use Signet of Agony and once when you transfer the bleeding to the foe, so it is 133% x 133% = 175% --Fisherman's Friend 08:22, 8 January 2006 (UTC)


 * This also begs the question - Do %Damage increase weapons increase spell damage? 70.148.11.26 16:39, 30 October 2006 (CST)
 * Doubtful, unless they changed it recently. I ran a KD/AS W/E for a long time, and I don't think I ever noticed a difference in AS damage.  I also ran (for a while) Crystal Wave and I saw no difference in damage with that either, and that's armor ignoring. Zaboomafoo 00:14, 19 December 2006 (CST)

of {Magic type}
I have a 20% protection prayers +1 wrap, I think it's safe to say that there is one for all caster types except special attributes &mdash; Skuld  15:01, 28 January 2006 (UTC) I have a +1 Blood Magic wrap so updated the page to include that and prot prayers.

of
Should we put a simple list in this article of the different species slaying mods? Not just the couple that have a different name but all the ones there are? I'm kind of curious exactly which ones are out there and think a list like that would be more helpful that individual articles for each one.

Just a simple little table like this:

etc.... I know that isn't all of them, just the ones I could think of off the top of my head at ~4am. --Rainith 18:46, 20 February 2006 (CST)
 * I support it, since not every species has an of slaying, we really should keep track of which ones exist. -PanSola 19:50, 20 February 2006 (CST)


 * If you check the history of the article you'll see that there was such a list at one point, but it was removed in an attempt to simplify the list. It should be easy to put it back in, if you think that this is important information that shhould be complete. But, please, make sure that the list if filled in quickly. I'm still waiting for somebody to complete the of  list. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 20:24, 20 February 2006 (CST)

Does this do any good on staves? Will spells/skills be boosted by the dmg vs. ? I just got a dragonslaying wrapping, and I'd test it, but I honesty can't think of an easy way to test it on a dragon... >< --Carmine 12:38, 22 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Tested on a Sand Drake outside Elona--by a monk with 10 Fire, 10DF, and two max staves both doing fire damage (one in Fire, one in DF).


 * I'm too lazy to do the stats on that, but I'd say that's within confidence on 20 hits being equal both ways, and outside confidence on dragonslaying 11% working properly. That or I have shitty, shitty luck.  And, no, I didn't confuse which attack was Dragonslaying!  Let me go test this more...problem is, the bitches keep dying on me...wtf, guys, stay alive so I can kill you. --Carmine 13:38, 22 October 2006 (CDT)


 * New test


 * This makes more sense. Ignore the previous trial as...unlucky.  Anyway, the important result is that firestorm is still shitty even with a dragonslaying mod.  --Carmine 13:54, 22 October 2006 (CDT)

of Undeadslaying
I removed the "of Undeadslaying" entry as I have only ever seen it as "of Deathbane." --Rainith 01:58, 3 March 2006 (CST)


 * I have only seen "of Deathbane" on swords and axe mods, but I have a staff that says "of skeletonslaying". Is it just a Sub mod of Deathbane as Skeletons are a subclass of Undead? --Gares Redstorm 02:16, 3 March 2006 (CST)


 * Skeletonslaying is a different mod, you'd have to ask PanSola about it, as I gave him the ones I found for his testing. I think it would be really funny if Deathbane did nothing against skeletons.  --Rainith 02:51, 3 March 2006 (CST)

Factions-only upgrades
In the PvP creation screen, there are three Factions-only bow strings: Barbed, Crippling, and Silencing. None of the other weapon types have Factions-only upgrades listed. How should these strings be added to the wiki? Since there are Factions-only upgrades, it's possible some of the current ones are also Prophecies-only, though there's no way to tell yet. --adeyke 06:09, 15 March 2006 (CST)
 * Even if they are Factions only, they will be accessable to people who only have Prophecies. ANet has stated in the FAQ that you can trade for stuff from other Campaigns that you don't have.  I'd say we list them together here, if they have their own page, make a note that they are from the Factions campaign.  Just my suggestion though, I'm sure some people will object to this.  :)  --Rainith 06:13, 15 March 2006 (CST)

Ogreslaying
I got this yesterday:. Not from a collector, as a drop. I now have the salvaged pommel in my inventory, and can if necessary, upload a pic of that too. My guess is that a creature, possibly the Yetis are considered Ogres by the game. --Rainith 17:51, 30 April 2006 (CDT)


 * I knew it! I knew they would add Ogres with Factions! I knew it as soon as the Ogre Slaying Knife showed up! I think I've also seen a shot of a shield with +AL vs. Ogres somewhere. Not sure on that, though. My guess would be on Yetis, too. :D --84-175 (talk) 17:55, 30 April 2006 (CDT)


 * Here's the pommel info for anyone who might have thought that was a collector weapon I was trying to pass off as a drop: [[Image:Ogre pommel.jpg]] --Rainith 19:44, 30 April 2006 (CDT)


 * I just found a chalice with an armour bonus versus Ogres in Kinya Province. It's only +3 Energy, so it seems even the most mundane items are included in the anti-Ogre fun.
 * [[Image:Ogre chalice.jpg]]
 * James 08:21, 3 May 2006 (CDT)

Mobs weak vs. ?
One thing that would be very nice and helpful is to inform people weaknesses and resistances vs. elements or damage types (slash/pierce/blunt) and honestly can't find it anywhere...

33%...
I'm wondering when the mod for 33% increased crippling, deepwound, bleeding, etc, is applied. With things like apply poison, I suppose it makes sense that it happens when the poison is applied to the target (ie when the arrow hits), I'm wondering if the same is for Deadly Riposte, and most importantly, Phantom Pain, afterall, the hex the condition is caused 10 seconds after the hex. I'm guessing that the mod is counted when the deep wound triggers, and I'm sure it's been tested before, just thought I'd make sure, I think it's related to the mod article anyway. One last question, what if the deepwound triggers when you die, does the deep wound 33% thing still take place? Silk Weaker 03:40, 6 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Any time something you do (e.g. attack or use a skill) causes a condition. Here's an example: I'm holding a Barbed sword. I use Signet of Agony. I bleed for 33 seconds (1.33*25), not 25. I then immediately use Plague Sending to send my evil juju to the enemy. They'll now bleed for 44 seconds (1.33*1.33*25).
 * (And, yes, if a warrior with a Barbed axe then uses Plague Touch to send the bleed back to me, it'll be around a minute worth of bleeding).
 * So, yes, that Cruel axe in your hand will boost Phantom Pain's Deep Wound, for example. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 03:49, 6 July 2006 (CDT) )

Boss Items
Can boss items (green) be upgraded as well? ex. I want to upgrade Victo's Blade with a Sundering hilt. -- Katsuro 14:50, 8 July 2006 (CDT)
 * No. See unique item.  --68.142.14.7 15:46, 8 July 2006 (CDT)

Adding on
what happenes when you put an upgrade (axe haft of enchanting) on an item that already has an upgrade (axe haft of shelter) what would happen, it this even do able?
 * You will be asked if you want to replace the old upgrade with the new one. If you say yes, then the new upgrade is applied.  In the process, the old upgrade would be lost. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 13:21, 14 July 2006 (CDT)

Old upgrades: still list them?
Well, it's been a few months since some upgrades were changed. Most notably, 10/10 sundering is now 20/20, and since vampiric mods only occur on rares the only ones that drop are 3's or 4-5's. There are also old major runes with -50 health, shields with -3 damage (chance 10%), and superior runes with minor rune skins. While the drops for them maybe have been removed, the actual items themselves still exist. So how should we list them? -Savio 19:09, 13 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Don't forget item colours, I have a blue major smite i've had for a year &mdash; Skuld 19:21, 13 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I just checked with another person and apparently 1/-1 vamp upgrades are still the basic unlockable mods via the Priests of Balthazar. As far as the other items go I think we can just add their previous incarnations as footnotes. -Savio 19:36, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

Fiery Dragon Sword hilt unsalvageable now?
With the recent October 25th update and the new salvage interface in place, it appears as though it's not possible to salvage the fiery sword hilt of an FDS any more. I used to be able to do this with an expert/superior kit and get fiery hilts all the time; now, it's just salvage material. I can sort of see why this happened( a fixed hilt when removed would mean a non-fiery FDS), but it's a bit of a bugaboo now - no more easily-gotten fiery hilts! 74.106.180.69 07:59, 29 October 2006 (CST)

Ranges for staff upgrades
The Priests of Balthazar offer to unlock the Adept Staff Head with a chance of 5%, so that seems to be the minimum value for this upgrade. Also, I've dropped a golden staff with a +28 health wrapping of Fortitude, so the minimal value for this upgrade on gold items must be 28 (or less). Khudzlin 23:22, 31 October 2006 (CST)

Further Trivia
The inscription "Riders on the Storm" that gives + armor vs. lightning is most likely a reference to a Doors song of the same name.

Trivia Correction
Someone wrote that "I Can See Clearly Now" was a song by Johnny Cash. It wasn't. Johnny Nash wrote the song, and I fixed it.


 * p Johnny Cash did cover a lot of songs, though.  Yeahjesse 02:20, 8 November 2006 (CST)

Two tables for Staff Wrappings?
Some types of Staff Wrappings are part of the 'Martial weapons and staves' and some are part of the 'Staves' tables bottom of the article. I think all Staff Wrappings should be in one place in the article. Balwin 14:46, 30 November 2006 (CST)
 * OK, there was no discussion about this point, but I felt the strong urge to simplify the situation with the staff wrappings and moved the staff wrapping information from the matial weapons table to the staves table. I hope I have transfered the of / of Mastery situation accurately. And I had to change some of the footnotes, too. I hope I haven't present new mistakes. Balwin 15:44, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

Weapons with 2 inscription slots?
"plus a maximum of 2 inscriptions"

Which weapon has 2 inscription slots? I don't think these exist ... --84.133.253.44 08:46, 2 December 2006 (CST)


 * Yeah, I've never seen weapons with more than 1 inscription. While I admit not having seen everything in the game, I'm correcting this... Khudzlin 18:03, 6 December 2006 (CST)

Id guess two handed weapons to offset the loss of a sheild and its inscription options. Only a guess though.--TypoNinja 14:56, 20 December 2006 (CST)

Will Upgrades work with traps?
I tested axe, bow, and dagger upgrades with traps on nameless isle and it did not seem to lengthen the time! Whats wrong? -- Dachiken

Furious Hammer Haft
I got a purple Furious (9%) Runic Hammer of Warding (+6). I'm not sure if this is a useful datapoint for filling in the ?%-?% in the Furious Hammer box or not. Can a weapon have one upgrade from the gold column and another from the purple column and still show purple? I don't think I'll be salvaging this since it's max damage I'll just use it as-is, so I won't be able to say if the Furious Hammer Haft is gold when removed. If I do salvage it I'll post back again.
 * Unfortunately, upgrade mods are always blue when you salvage them, regardless of the rarity of the weapon they came from. For example, a perfect sundering mod shows in the same blue text as a 12% mod, even if the first came off a gold weapon and the second came off a blue weapon. To answer your question, I believe the item's rarity is chosen and then the actual stats for the mods are chosen so purple weapons will always have two "purple level" modifiers and golds will always have two "gold level" modifiers. Fill in the chart for the Furious mod if you want. If someone else finds a different result later, they can change it :-) BigAstro 02:01, 10 January 2007 (CST)
 * I can confirm the 9% on a Furious purple weapon, actually have seen lots of them...but I never realized it was missing data. I'll put it in the chart now. 24.6.147.36 02:09, 10 January 2007 (CST)

15/-1
Does anybody know if there exists any of these: +15 Energy -1 Energy Regeneration Staff Head or Staff Wrapping or Wand Wrapping or Focus Core?--Jill Bioskop X 07:32, 11 January 2007 (CST)
 * No. An easy way to check is to talk to a priest of balthazar in a pvp outpost &mdash; Skuld 07:41, 11 January 2007 (CST)

Divine Favor +1
"Divine Favor +1 (20% chance while using skills)"

Does this count all skills, or just divine favor skills? — Jyro X 11:18, 11 January 2007 (CST)


 * Divine favour skills... &mdash; Skuld 11:20, 11 January 2007 (CST)
 * I would say all, because it's while using skills, not specific Divine favor skills. You should be able to see it.(divine favor bonus)Jelmewnema 11:21, 11 January 2007 (CST)
 * While using divine favour skills, this isn't rocket science, it is quite clear &mdash; Skuld 13:16, 11 January 2007 (CST)
 * Maybe someone should verify? The only+ divine favor thing i have is a shield-_-Jelmewnema 13:23, 11 January 2007 (CST)

Missing data for Focus Core
Got a Focus Core of Endurance (+39 Health while in a Stance) off a Purple, Focus Core of Fortitude +22 off a Purple, Focus Core of Devotion +34 off a blue, a Shield Handle of Devotion +33 off a Blue, and a Shield Handle of Valor +38 off a Purple. Just adding my 2 cents to the missing data table. BarGamer 09:07, 26 January 2007 (CST)

Collector Weapon Upgrades
Ok, I'm noticing that there's a lot of inconsitency in the information given re. salvaging weapon mods from collector weapons. The main article Collector notes that Collector rewards cannot be salvaged, however any runes or upgrade components used on them can be recovered at a chance of destroying the item. However, this is patently not true.

Some articles such as the Ascalon Razor and Plasma Blade articles note that the original mods can be salvaged off. I have further managed to salvage the 25% charrslaying mod for bows and hammers. I also know from personal experience that the collector weapons from Seung Kim will salvage their Fortitude mods.

Question. Is the main article now incorrect and can All collector weapons now be salvaged for their innate mods? If so, is this intended or a bug? Anyone willing to help me test this?

Deadbolt 07:56, 25 January 2007 (CST)
 * It was previously true, changed in Nightfall, intended or bug doesn't make much difference. There's a difference between innate modifiers and weapon upgrades; you're not going to get the 10% HSR out of a Fiery Flame Spitter. - [[Image:Savio_3_mini.gif]] Savio  10:03, 25 January 2007 (CST)

Quest reward weapons
All Quest reward weapons that have upgrades on them can be salvaged. Been through nearly all of them in Prophecies and - even though it used to not be that way - you can now salvage them...Lots of cheap and easy max Furious mods as well as several Fortitude ones. (T/C) 00:02, 2 March 2007 (CST)

Attribute staff wrappings
I just got a Staff Wrapping of Domination Magic in Nightfall, so Staff Wrappings of Mastery have not replaced the old attribute wrappings. -- Gordon Ecker 04:56, 2 March 2007 (CST)

Any limitations to upgrading wands and foci?
Are there limitations to using suffix upgrades on wands (wand wrappings of...) and foci (focus core of...)? I tried to apply a "Wand Wrapping of Memory" on a "Holy Rod" I got from a collector in the Crystal Desert, but it wouldn't stick. The Holy Rod had no prefix/suffix and only one mod.

Since I was planning on upgrading a "Divine Symbol" with a "Focus Core of Aptitude", would that be problematic as well? --Pandelume 03:59, 5 March 2007 (CST)

Purple staves with Staff Wrapping of Master data needed
I have found a purple accursed staff of mastery, 16%. Please note other data points so we can update the ?%-?% for purple of mastery staff wrappings. Also, I'm not sure I understand note (2) for that table. This Nightfall-dropped staff wrapping is "+1 to Item's Attribute" Eastwind 18:24, 10 March 2007 (CST)

Clarification needed regarding best weapons
Given that you get 2 upgrades and 1 inscription on Nightfall items, does it mean that Nightfall items are inherently better than Prophecies or Factions? Or do Prophecies and Factions items have something that balances out the Nightfall items (such as built-in insigna) ? I'm trying to get a good idea of what would be the perfect weapon, so any comments would help (of course, I know it depends on play-style and profession). 74.93.124.57 09:13, 15 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Inscriptions are "on" Factions and Prophecies weapons, but aren't salvagable - say you have a sword from Factions with a "Damage+15% when health is above 50%" mod on it. In Nightfall, that sword would read "Inscription: Strength and Honor (Damage+15% when health is above 50%)." [[Image:ShidoSig_moebius2.gif]] 10:08, 15 May 2007 (CDT)

Staff Wrapping of Fortitude
Hi, the "of Fortitude" suffix for Stafes was missing, i added it. Sry that I don't know the exact lifegain varieties of the three colors, but i added 28-30hp for the gold column, but maybe there are also +27hp sometimes on golden stafes... -- Zerpha The Improver 15:08, 28 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Hi, you are the victim of the confusing structure of this page. The information about the staves are divided into different tables. The staff head has its extra table in the prefix section and the staff wrappings are part of the normal weapon table in the suffix section and has addtional an extra table for staff specific suffixes. So the information about the wrapping of fortitude ar already in the table with the other weapons. Balwin 07:24, 29 May 2007 (CDT)