Talk:Game updates/20060914

General
So this was the great skill balance that everyone was anticipating from rumor. Hmmm...increased Shelter energy cost...that's gonna throw a wee kink in the Rit Lord works... Yay for new mappable areas though :-) &mdash; kyrasantae   04:32, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I just downloaded a bit of the update so I could see the new login screen - the new music is really friggin' amazing. It's a whole new theme.  On the other hand, I recommend '-image'ing...there's something like 25k+ files to download. &mdash; [[Image:Fin_sig.gif]] kyrasantae   04:53, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Bring some time if you do that. I'm at 25% now and already got 120 MB. They sure don't kid, do they? :) --84-175 (talk) 04:55, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm at 200MB now and only at 4%...then again, I haven't run -image for a week. &mdash; [[Image:Fin_sig.gif]] kyrasantae  05:02, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Whats this imaging your talking about? Anyone drop by my talk page and let me know (as i might not reteurn here) --Woonack [[Image:Warrior-icon-small.png]] 07:20, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I found what the option was, using it now and its reporting 40k+ files. Thats a BIG update in my eyes :o - 1% was 5.3mb so 530mb sounds like the factions part (plus we have that open session coming up --Woonack [[Image:Warrior-icon-small.png]] 07:34, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I've been running it all day (slowly damnit slowly!) and its got to 77% - 272mb downloaded. --Woonack [[Image:Warrior-icon-small.png]] 10:18, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Remember, if you've never used it before, it'll have a lot of stuff to download. It's only 25k or so files if you've used -image in the last week or so. LordKestrel 15:22, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

Ah.. Evicerate &mdash; Skuld 04:52, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

Hmm, it takes ages to reload Fort Aspenwood map. -- Cwingnam2000 05:10, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

After the new gw.exe I can't get to my Guild Hall (Imperial) with any character. Loading stops at 0% and I get a DC some time after :( Sigh... hope they fix it tomorrow. Good night. &mdash; Poki#3 16:51, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

i was looking at the new login screen bcuz something looked improved, and then i forced it on dx8 and took pics and compared. and then it strucked me, Bump maps!. im not sure its definetly it but it sure seems like it.--Ofer1992 08:49, 15 September 2006 (CDT)

Did some others also notice that it is no longer possible to get a full skill description at Priest of Balthazar or skill trainer since the major update? All descriptions are interpreted with their corresponding attribute. I don't like it. Anet can easily make changes to skills this way without us noticing it or am I being paranoid now? Xerdes
 * When mousing over the priest or a trainer, it's always shown values at your current attribute. It only shows ranges when it pops up a "skill unlocked" window.  --Fyren 20:22, 16 September 2006 (CDT)

RoF
Adjusted balance of some monster groups in the Ring of Fire mission and the Ice Floe Explorable area. I'm very interested in knowing what this is about... Foo 04:33, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Me too! I think the "Knight" NPCs should have had deadly riposte.. :P &mdash; Skuld 04:36, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Oh maybe they made the back-door way easier as the guy said it should be. Foo 04:38, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I just hope they reduced armor level of the bosses in Ring of Fire -- S une  C  04:39, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

Apparently it's ice imps, I read that on the guru thread this morning &mdash; Skuld 08:58, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * What thread is this? I'm interested now. Asmodeus 11:07, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * My guess is the balances they referred to were the Ice Imps and Lava Imps, as with the boosts to the Mind .... spells these guys would be even more powerful than they were before RossMM 15:14, 15 September 2006 (CDT)

Ritual Lord

 * He, yeah, I can already hear the screams, damning ANet for nerfing Rits. About 90% of the balances of this update are buffs though. And honestly, the classic Rit Lord build was kinda overpowered. :) Also, they seem to be secretly preparing for Nightfall. This update is way too big for the ammount of changes listed. --84-175 (talk) 04:40, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Nah, it isn't too big. It is just a typical skill balance update as they've done it every time when the GvG ladder is reset. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 04:47, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I have already 95 MB at 24% using the -image command line switch. That is too big. Pre-streaming for the release of Factions was about that size. --84-175 (talk) 04:50, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * It definitely could be that they have included Nightfall content into this update, and if they did, yay for not having to download it later? Perhaps they opened up a few areas to test them, walk around in them on the servers instead of in their development windows. Also of note is the new shader option - I've noticed that when I switch from low texture quality to high that I have to download a few more files from time to time, and not just when I'm running around in PvP. This could be that they had to make a few extra files dealing with the visual adjustments from this shading option. --ClydeBarbarian 07:16, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * A big nerf to ritual lord, not only Ritual Lord effect is reduced, the enrgy cost for Shelter is increase and the energy gain from Boon of Creation is reduced.


 * Ritual Lord was not nerfed, spirits recharge faster now. --Karlos 05:12, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * ritual lord the build is nerfed. Spirit recharge faster, but the overall recharge time aren't. It took 16 second to rechage with max Spawning power. The second nerf is Boon of Creation energy gained reduce as well as energy cost increase for Shelter. The shelter spirit now use the Destruction sprit look tho. -- [[Image:Ritualist-icon-small.png]] Cwingnam2000 05:25, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Let's follow an example. Union used to have a recharge of 60 seconds, my Rit had Spawning Power of 13, so he had Ritual Lord at 67% faster recharge. So, that means Union recharged in 20 seconds. Now, Union is at 45, Ritual Lord makes 54% faster, which is about 20.7 seconds. i.e. 21 seconds. Not nerfed I say, just adjusted to fit the faster recharge of most spirit skills now. --Karlos 06:51, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Guess they don't want all people to put 12 + 4 in Ritual Lord. The higher the SP you put before, the bigger the nerf, since SP are controlling both HP of the spirit and the recharge % of the spirit. 16 sec to recharge the spirits in a mission where the spirits dead in 5 sec is kinda useless. -- [[Image:Ritualist-icon-small.png]] Cwingnam2000 10:51, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Nerfed in relative terms (compared to non RL ritualists). Plus the above point of Boon's energy. All I can say is: Finally, I was annoyed by Rts being reduced to one single role for quite a bit. --Xeeron 07:14, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Going to make a Healing rit or a Channeling Rit. At list, i can keep my Life and Recuperation spirit up as long as possible. -- [[Image:Ritualist-icon-small.png]] Cwingnam2000 10:51, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

I agree that playing my ritual lord, with Boon of Creation and Shelter nerfed (not to mention ritual lord, although that change is somewhat lesser), is going to be far more difficult, which somewhat annoys me (I played in an underworld group last night that used Quickening Zephyr, and that completely destroyed my energy management, so these changes will likely do the same). However, one thing that does excite me is that Tranquil was Tanasen has also changed. I used to contemplate a change to that skill similar to this one (actually, I thought they should just decrease it to 15 second recharge, but this works too.) Now, we have a viable way of creating spirits sans interruption! VegJed 15:34, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Alright, having found out that Tranquil lasts 20 if one is using runes (at rank 12, lasts for 17) I've determined that it is still not perfect. More feasible, but far from what I hoped. VegJed 15:45, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

After some testing, I've determined Shelter is no longer viable for the Ritual Lord build, since you never get back up to 25 energy, unless you stand around for 10 seconds. Yeah, its annoying, but now I should be able to make more use out of my /N secondary, since you still get enough return off of BoC to make minions. Finally, I may be able to get into some groups as an Explosive Creation rit, rather than saving it for when I'm with henchies. VegJed 18:50, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Considering bringing Pain for energy using Ritual Lord. -- [[Image:Ritualist-icon-small.png]] Cwingnam2000 18:56, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * How does Pain supply energy? cast it for 6 energy from boon??? that's a gain of 1 energy! you'd have gained that back from just NOT casting a spell for pain's cast time! This is a huge Rit nerf. It destroys all my builds because I already HAVE a nuker and healer character and don't want to make a crappy Rit healer, or a crappy Rit nuker. Can't Rit lord thanks to shelter, Can't MM or explosive growth thanks to Boon. What do I do? delete my best looking but most totally useless character???65.93.166.50 08:41, 16 September 2006 (CDT)


 * 1 Energy gain is still a energy gain, its not a loss, its a cheap 1 extra energy, the only time when it is a energy lost is when it got interupt or you cancelled the summoning. Ritualist isnt subpar nuker nor healer, they are different class and they require different playstyle. -- [[Image:Ritualist-icon-small.png]] Cwingnam2000 19:31, 16 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I agree the ritualist is a very good healer, at least as good as a healing monk if set up properly, using mend body and soul you have a good heal, 100+ hp heal along with a good condidition removal, spirit light for a 140ish point heal for 5 energy and spirit transfer for a 240 point heal, for 10 energy, all with short recharge times, Weapon of Warding with its Guardian + Heal Breeze effect. Preservation with its 110 heal every 3 seconds, tell me that isnt good healing! The only thing the restoration rit lacks is enrgy management and hex removal, but inspired/revealed hex along with channeling or some other energy management skill sorts that out.  RT/ME Healers FTW, at least as good as any monk.


 * You can still minionmancer with the boon change. It just means 1-2 less energy per minion, not too big of a deal.  Minionman October 9th, 2006

Divine Boon
Boon nerfed >< They didn't do any of the inspiration changes rumoured? &mdash; Skuld 04:44, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * No, guess the alpha tester is screaming up and down because lots of monk use the inspiration line for energy management. -- [[Image:Ritualist-icon-small.png]] Cwingnam2000 04:45, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I hate how they keep nerfing Boon Prot as if it's overpowered. It's not. It's simply the most viable build against heavy hexing and conditioning that takes place in PvP. They need to make other attributes more capable to help with hex and condition removal if they want to see that build become less popular. --Karlos 05:12, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Hmmm I do like it. Previous to this update, pure protection monks were almost extinct. It is nice to know that the update increased to probability of having "specialised" monks instead of everyone running the same cookie-cutter build. And the changes to Rts and As are welcome as well, A were to inferior to W/any and noone was playing non Ritual Lord Rts ... --Xeeron 06:48, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * How is it the fault of Boon Prot that ANet made healing and divine favor classes poor condition and hex removal such that if you wanted to heal AND hanle those effectively, you have to be Divine Boon. It's a testament to their poor design. --Karlos 06:53, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Pffft healing monks, we're all waiting for the return of the GvG bonder!! :D --Xasxas256 06:56, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Why is it poor setup to require more than 1 person for different tasks? Why not blame Anet for not giving you the uber-heavy-armor-AoE-damage-healing-everyone class then? ;-) --Xeeron 07:13, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I just tried my typical Boon/Prot build this morning and found I couldn't heal as much anymore. That 10 extra health seems to really have taken its toll.  I'm normally annoyed by skill changes but this one really does take the biscuit. --SK [[Image:Monk-icon-small.png]]  04:20, 15 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Why not blame Anet for not giving you the uber-heavy-armor-AoE-damage-healing-everyone class then? - I thought that was the dervish.....

Quests - Initial Green "!" missing?
Is it just me, or do NPC's with quest no more have green signs above their head? They only appear when I talk to the NPC -- S une  C  05:15, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

It has just been approved by some guild members that the Green sign first appears when you talk to the NPC. This must be a bug -- S une  C  05:18, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Some have them, some don't. Some examples, Forestermaster Vasha had no Green exclamation point before accepting the quest or when I went back for the reward last night. Guardsman Oldrich did not have one when I was to enter HzH. -Gares 08:14, 15 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I can't remember all of them, but several NPCs in Cantha had this problem prior to the update. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 08:20, 15 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Really? In my experience I have never had this problem. If that's the case, perhaps the update just made the buggy quest markers worse. It is a bit of a nusiance, mainly if it missing from the quest givers. I don't have time at work to research through to see if the bug was documented in another update or not. If it was, I could rephrase to state that the marker bug has became worse after this update. -Gares 08:39, 15 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I think this bug has been fixed now, partly at least. Armen the Guide was not showing his questionmark yesterday, but he is today. - Stylva  08:42, 15 September 2006 (CDT)
 * There were several quests that were this way starting at initial release, and never fixed. This bug may have introduced new ones, I'm not certain.  I can't recall if Vasha was one of the ones that used to have the issue.  Off hand, I recall the emperor's hand on one quest (not all), and a couple NPCs that you talk to in order to gain entrance to outposts that were involved in quests had it missing - the problem is that I can't recall which ones specifically.  For quite a while, I've been avoiding Cantha when I can (except when I've wanted to level up a Tyrian character fast - or when a guildie needed assistance), playing mainly Tyrian quests when I'm on.  --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 08:45, 15 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Don't think it's been fixed. I've been going through the missions and quests in Maguuma today and yesterday and the exclamation marks are definitely not there. From what I can observe and conclude, the first exclamation mark does not appear. Any subsequent need for an exclamation will cause it to appear. In other words, if an NPC is to reward you for quest completion, the mark will not appear. But if after u've accepted the reward and the NPC has a follow-up quest, then the mark appears. --Ab.Er.Rant (msg Aberrant80) 08:58, 15 September 2006 (CDT)
 * IIRC, Vasha has always had the marker until now, as it is a repeatable quest and one I use to do before playing in Aspenwood. I'm hopeful there will be an update to fix the bugs intrduced in this update and this one whether it was introduced in this update or was just worsened. -Gares 09:12, 15 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Maybe something to do with the video upgrades? Which could explain why some people are seeing them and some aren't.  Depending on your video preferences/setup you might or might not see the problem.  I don't know, I haven't played since the patch, just guessing here.  --Rainith 13:53, 15 September 2006 (CDT)

It always scary when...
...you load up the game after a big patch and you find all your 8 PvE characters have starters armor... fortunately I've seen this happen before, but I actually think the default armor for Ranger is nicer than my prophecies druids armor, hmmm time to see Suki me thinks... --Jamie  05:22, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Heh, my monk had her armor on her as usual, even dyed properly. The other starter armor aren't too nice thou. (I have the AL 60 Shing Jea skin :) ) --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 05:24, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

Wielder's Boon
increased amount healed to 15..75., Looks like they increased the 'conditional ammount healed. Just tested.

Sound problems...
This update has introduced sound problems with accepting rewards and calling targets. They are all silent now. --Karlos 05:50, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I've had this problem since the last update that noted that they fixed the sound bug.. But just occasionally, not all the time. ― Stylva 05:55, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Hey, some people (like me) NEWER had any Sound problem and are very faithful in there sound card, but for instance the targate calling ping in now GONE. I didn't even SEE a ping on the mini-map, let alone hear it. This isn't part of the sound bug. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|20px|My Talk Page :o]] 15:00, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

Nevermind, it seemsnot a GW problem. -- Cwingnam2000 18:09, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

Makeover....what?

 * The notes say "Some character faces/hairstyle got a make-over," but I can't really seem to notice any! Could someone please give a specific example?
 * Try this thread at guru --Aspectacle 07:12, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Thanks so much, and sorry about if I replied in a wrong format, I'm still getting used to the awesome power of the wiki! :]
 * Good god, these shaders suck. It's apparent in the "vampire/werewolf"-face in the above example, and I have a Ranger-character with that face. It's not quite as bad as the poorly lit screenshot above, but it's still quite bad. What the hell, Anet. What the hell? --Black Ark 14:35, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

Weird date
They say: "Update - Wednesday September 14" but wednesday is 13 and 14 is thursday, apparentlly someone diddn't take a look at the callendar :) --Phoenix 07:06, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * The update took place 3-4 hours ago, which was Thursday the 14th in all parts of the world excpet Hawaii. --Karlos 07:46, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

Rt's Binding Ritual
I have notice that some of them are become the appearance of destruction, anyone? --heach 07:18, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Speaking of the new look, I have a screenshot of the side profile of it, seeing as the page for the Destruction skill only has a pic of the front view of the spirit. Should I upload it? &mdash; [[Image:Fin_sig.gif]] kyrasantae   20:08, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * My ritualist is already crying over the reduction in Boon of Creation, but I think I'll get over it. What remains to be seen is how this will affect the ritualists PvE as well as PvP - which means we have hours and hours upon happy hours testing and refining our builds. Although from just looking at a glance, Claude/Eve are going to be in my hench party far more often... --ClydeBarbarian 07:32, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * On a slightly related note, the squelch of BoC more or less defenestrates most Rit minion builds. Kessel 09:47, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

sorry, I use a wrong word, guess now it's easier to understand. --heach 07:42, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I think the distinction is stationary (non-attacking) vs active (attacking). I have tested with 3 stationary and 3 attacking and the theory is holding up. Union, shelter and Displacement are all now the look of Destruction while Pain, Bloodsong and Shadowsong retained their look of the Banshee. --Karlos 08:06, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

| (pipe) no longer appears the same way. So \|\| |/|/ and /|||\ are things of the past, apparently. " skills: Server Artery," Anet has mad spelling skillz.-Onlyashadow 08:53, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * They where thinking about the clogging of their servers artery to the internet for sure ... --Xeeron 10:56, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * To "server" an artery means to make it start serving blood for clients. Of course, this is different from the usual reactive nature of web servers because this server sends out the content -- in this case blood -- regardless of the number of clients and only for a specific duration. So it's more like a broadcast streaming server a la Shoutcast. 166.70.207.2 11:02, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

OMG it's HUGE!!!
OK so I errd on the side of caution on my post on the article page. IMHO this is massive. Needed to load heaps of files just to get into the 1st zone so thought I'd go the whole hog and -image the game. 224MB and i'm only at 50%! At least I'm getting a good download speed! I'd cry if I was on dialup. --JP 12:59, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Ever since the update, I have seen a lot of this "-image" term, but I have no clue what it means! I have tried looking it up, but have not been successful. What does "-image the game" refer to?


 * There is a helpful thread at the Guild Wars Guru forums, the Community Works section. What it does is to let you download all the files at once and decompress them, instead of downloading them for each new area you go to.. Something like that. Look it up in the thread ;) --Stylva 13:44, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Check out the Command line article. :)  --Rainith 13:55, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Thanks so much, it's all becoming crystal clear! :]

Inventory Bug
I picked up a Dwarven Armor in South Shiverpeaks and my inventory window popped-up (much like it does when you pick up your first drop on any PvE char.) It's nothing serious like losing my armor or something, but I'm curious if it happened to anyone else. Jmz 13:39, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * same for me, picked up some rod in the Northern Shiverpeaks. T.T.H. 14:36, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Look's like some "first done" things reseted. Nothing major. Weapon Sets reseted for instance. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|20px|My Talk Page :o]] 15:00, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

"Wrong" GuildWiki Notes
It seems as if some Guild Wiki Notes are incorrect.

Poke 13:48, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * "Pressing right 'Ctrl' key usually crashes the game." Tested and worked correct without crashing anything.
 * "Moving to an outpost where you are already located is no longer possible." It does work for me.
 * "Unsupported characters in chat are now shown as spaces, instead red square. Sending of this message is now possible. (Tested for czech chars)." This is not right for every unsupported characters. Tested with arabic characters (ۻ), it was shown as a red square.
 * Then say 'some' unsupported characters. Polish Chars where Red before, but now there spaces. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|20px|My Talk Page :o]] 15:00, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

Pet Changes
The crane pet of my girlfriend changed its top head color from red to blue. T.T.H. 14:41, 14 September 2006 (CDT) that's because he's in the snow! he's just a cold crane, duh.-Onlyashadow 14:47, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

Max. attribute points bug
Seems like the attribute points are bugged too.

Just created a new char and tried to skip training (This is Factions), but at the loading screen the connection froze and i restarted GW. When i got back in i spawned in the training area with 200 attribute points in level 2, and several NPCs were level 255. I upped 2 attributes to 12, went out in the first area and spawned level 7 spirits with my ritualist. Say what?

~ Zero Moonshadow 15:56, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * NPCs show as level 255 if they are in your pary screen, but have been outside of your radar for all of the time. That's old stuff. The attrib stuff seems to be a bug thou. Want to mee tme in game and show? --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 16:03, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

So glad Warriors got Nerfed, and Assassins got Powered Up
It's about time Eviscerate was nerfed again. And Irresistable Blow too. I'm very glad Warriors are getting just what they deserve: a beatdown. Weaker Tiger's Fury. Weaker Eviscerate. Weaker Bull's Strike. Weaker Irresistable Blow. Keep the warrior nerfs coming please. They're great! 70.132.28.72 02:53, 15 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Don't be silly. What do you want? how 'bout if we decrese there armor to 60 AL, huh? It's good that Assassins got bufed, I always thought of them as underpowered. However warriors are more streight forward and rely on a narrower set of skills (since they have 3 weapons) and may be in trouble if there key skills get to week. Give them some slack. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|20px|My Talk Page :o]] 03:10, 15 September 2006 (CDT)

Morale Boosts
Since the update, I've noticed that after killing random enemies (non-boss), my morale boost is flashing as if I had received a morale boost from killing the enemy.--65.185.60.89 15:25, 15 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I've had that too, and it seems to trigger not on every kill but periodically (probably when you would receive a boost, if you had DP). RossMM 16:52, 15 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm getting that too. Nice to know when your henchies are getting DP removed, though :) &mdash; [[Image:Fin_sig.gif]] kyrasantae   17:02, 15 September 2006 (CDT)
 * You can remove DP by gaining XP. Now it's "jumping" like all other effects when it changes rather than just changing the number without the "jump."  --Fyren 17:10, 15 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm fairly sure its just flashing whenever you get enough exp to remove 1 death penalty (even though you have 10% morale boost). [[Image:Chuiu Me Icon.png]] (T/C) 11:02, 16 September 2006 (CDT)

The Undercity
Did this update turn The Undercity into a non-world map area? When travelling through it you no longer reveal the map above (Xaquang Skyway, and the U map acts like in other 'indoor' areas. Quest stars also no longer display on the world map. RossMM 11:03, 19 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Bummer. --Karlos 11:05, 19 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Yeah, see Talk:The Undercity, you also don't get percentages towards the Explorer of Cantha title there (at least not if you haven't been to the skyway above it, I haven't tested it if you have been there). --Rainith 16:17, 19 September 2006 (CDT)