Talk:Guide to defeating Magni the Bison/Archive 1

I reorganized the page, with some general strategy, and single class builds that work both for M. Bison and most of the rest of the potential opponents. I left the builds that others added to the page at the bottom, except for deleting one that showed an undescriptive screenshot of a skillbar, and deleting a couple that had the skillbar mostly empty. I fought through the tournament with each of my builds until I reached round 5 at least ten times, to ensure that the build could usually beat M. Bison as well as most of the earlier opponents, and stopped on a run in which I reached round 5 without facing any new opponents. If someone verifies that a build beats an opponent that I haven't faced, it may be good to remove that opponent from the list for that build. If you lose to an opponent, that could be that the build can't beat that opponent, or just that you didn't use it properly. Quizzical 00:20, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Pretty useless IMHO. Having an anti-Bison build is no good if that build is not versatile enough to make it through the previous five rounds of the tournament, during which many different opponents can come up as opponents. Should be moved and expanded to something like Guide to beating the Norn Fighting Tournament or similar. --Roland of Gilead (talk) 04:54, 19 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah fuck it, lets rub our wieners together. --DEATHWING 05:02, 19 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Agreed. If anything, PvX should accommodate the NFT builds rather than litter them here. But deathwing's comment makes me virtually step away from him. lol Flechette 05:45, 19 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I /agree with Roland. Rather create a guide that includes everyone you fight against, not just one person. Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|19px]] 05:53, 19 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I vote for moving the article to "Guide to beating The Norn Fighting Tournament" and expanding the content to all oponents idea. --  Glamtre  [[Image:Axe-icon-right.png]] (Contribs) 18:37, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I dont see the problem here just a matter of using ursan blessing a bow and distracting shot and its easy.

My page still pwns this out of the water. The problem with the Ursan Blessing/Dshot combo is that it requires Ranger primary or secondary, Skills which you may not have, finding a free long-range Bow, and most importantly the fact that that's still not a 100% guaranteed victory in and of itself. (T/C) 01:04, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * My mesmer tried the Ursan/Dshot build. Even with Favorable Winds and Read the Wind, I still can't interrupt him with recurve bow (couldn't find longbow, but flatbow failed).  I also didn't have Summon Mursaat, so I brought my own Black Widow instead (higher armor than Mursaat I'd expect).  Turns out Bison has some bad AI that would cause him to randomly run around at times (always after killing the Black Widow).  I have 100% success defeating him by keeping my Ursan run buff on and keep a safe distance from him. Not sure when the bug will be fixed...  My build was:

with 12 mark, 12 beast, 3 Inspiration. Distraction Shot and Comfort Animal turn out to be completely useless, and Inspired Enchantment is only needed against Mhenlo. Mhenlo is slightly harder to kill than Bison, but I still can win 100% the time (drag out the fight and keep removing enchants, then spike him with Ursan 3-hit damage). -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 11:15, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

What's with all the builds requiring a particular combination of professions? It seems that a lot of people have the idea that M. Bison is unbeatable without extensive use of a secondary profession and/or high rank pve-only skills, which is completely wrong. I've added single-class builds for the ones that didn't have them (which was most of them). Even if it takes a bit of luck to draw suitable preceding opponents, it's vastly cheaper to take two or three tries to beat the tournament than to spend 5k or so on secondary profession skills. -User:Quizzical

Wow, someone really cleaned this up. It's much better now. Though my page still has the actual enemy skillbars :) (T/C) 00:19, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Someone put in a line about the paragon build not working against Eve, which is untrue, so I've deleted it. According to my notes, I did beat Eve with it, and it presumably wasn't that hard of a fight if I didn't make any notes about her in particular. Quizzical 01:59, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Hey I know I am late to the Party and pretty much everyone has figured out how to beat Magni but if you don't mind being a coward you can kill him easy using any proffesion with 2 Ebon Vanguard Skills Winds and Ebon Escape. Cast Winds in the holding area and select it as your target. When the gate opens run out and right when you get out cast ebon escape. You have to cast it right when you get through the gate because once the gate is up it will no longer allow you to shadow step back. Once you are safely on the other side Use any non-melee/projectile build to kill your opponents and no one can get hit you. I guarnatee this works I have a screen shot of Decisive victory and me on the opposite side of the wall. Again I am really late to the party so probably nobody cares but if you are tired of Magni wooping on you this will work (He will run away once you start attacking him just wait he will come back and then not leave again.) Monk Texas Ranger 19:26, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Dervish Build
The Dervish build seems a little cyclical, as it requires a skill that you get by defeating Magni in the first place. Draxynnic 05:09, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Monk
I used something like this with my Monk:

Precast Reversal, get in melee range and KD. Make chain up to Holy Strike, cast reversal, Continue Chain. Kite and keep casting Reversal to negate damage. This build rips up any build thrown at you before getting to Magni. Magni will take about 2 mins.

Magni will own you. Just use a 55 monk? --DEATHWING 22:01, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

There is a PvX build that goes like this:

One optional should be "YMLaD!", but it didn't link correctly

--Guild of Deals 13:23, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Just figured I would put this up...

Blood Magic: 12 Healing Prayers: 8+3 Protection Prayers:7+4 Divine Favor:8+3

Fairly easy 55 build to use, If up against alot of degen put on some of your normal armor to gain some health, Is difficult to deal with hexes from Norgu, but managed to kill him.

Palawa Joko
That bit is horrible! Is he really in the tournament? Can't we just remove the rumors and make it more factual? 198.54.202.234 17:12, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * If you want to go through the tournament however many times it takes to draw Palawa Joko as an opponent enough times as enough different classes to figure out what builds he and his minions use, his basic strategy, what matches up well against him, and so forth, then have at it. If I beat the tournament more than a hundred times and never once saw him, you're probably looking at thousands of trips through the tournament to do that.  It's hard to make things factual when the facts aren't known.  Quizzical 20:56, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I'd suggest removing it completely until it can actually be confirmed. As the old adage goes, jpegs or it didn't happen. =P I'll remove it myself if no one objects here in a day or so. --67.86.141.73 01:54, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
 * No objections, I'm whacking it. Its clearly a rumor, its poorly written, and if it belongs anywhere, its in the talk pages or, at most, as a Note in the guide - 'It is rumored that Palawa Joko sometimes replaces Magni the Bison as the final challenger in the tournament.' Add it if you feel like, but my feeling is it should stay on the talk page. --Belker 04:05, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I got multiple users on my page who met him, as well as two skills for the Minions, and so I believe the information is true. But everyone seems to agree it is a very rare encounter. Perhaps there are requirements that must be met in the Nightfall campaign. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 19:50, 11 January 2008 (UTC)


 * All ten of my characters were Protector of Elona with nearly all Nightfall quests completed before doing the Norn tournament, so it would strike me as odd if it takes something else in Nightfall to trigger getting Palawa Joko. Quizzical 22:57, 28 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Perhaps that's the problem? Like, it only comes along if you havent gone past Morah or smthing. Or he's really rare --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]]-- (s)talkpage 23:05, 28 January 2008 (UTC)


 * To make GWEN content unavailable to characters who went too far in Nightfall before GWEN came out would be really, really bad game design. Quizzical 00:09, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Monk speaking up with regards to the Monk/Assasin build
I don't know who says that it is possible to beat Magni the Bison loading this configuration, but I tried several times to beat him with no luck. (How reliable was this persn's ISP, and how close to the game servers did they live?) How long does it take for bear form to wear off? Not that it matters, he can get in a swipe as you try to run out of range and finish you in one blow. I had very nice max damage gold kukris, that increased bleeding as well. I was able to tear through almost every opponent leading up to him, except Lo Sha ripped me apart with his Degen, and Lukas also very nicely shut me down half the time. 72.205.228.80 19:44, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The build seems to make sense, I suppose it relies on trying to kd as an interrupt for bear form. The only thing I can think of is that between the build being posted and now, there was a damage reduction to horns, but that shouldn't matter if they're constantly kded anyway. -Ezekiel 21:31, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Mesmer Build
The listed Mesmer build is decent (and is what every mesmer tried right off the bat), but I think it is missing a little.

Power Return isn't needed...not even a little. You have Backfire, why would you ever want to stop someone from casting and doing 147 dmg? Instead of Power Return, I would suggest Spiritual Pain. It makes Razah a total breeze (as opposed to being one of the most difficult) and it also allows for an extra 79 dmg for finishing any hangers-on.

Other than that one skill change, the build is exactly what I came up with and used. I also used 16 Dom, 12 Insp, and 6 FC (I think 6 is correct here).

I also tested it extensively and found that the build I suggest can easily destroy most opponents. I would think that yours would be the same (mine only makes Razah much easier. Most opponents don't need to be finished off with Spiritual Pain). Casters are generally dead in less than 5-10 seconds, attackers in less than 15-20. The only real exceptions to this are the following:
 * Devona - heals herself quite a bit (approx 30-60 seconds)
 * Cynn - you have to run from PBAoE, and she uses Glyph of Restoration like crazy (approx 30 seconds)
 * Razah - kite spirits and waste him with Spiritual Pain (approx 15 seconds)
 * Warmaster Tydus - drain him with Shackles so he can't use Troll Unguent (approx 30-60 seconds)
 * Mhenlo - drain his energy and he goes down pretty quick (can't remember how long, but approx 60-90 seconds if I remember correctly)
 * Danika - I only fought her once and lost after a few minutes. I think the best way to go is to put Shackles on her pet first (only the one that uses Blood Ritual), then on Danika (keeping it on the pet as well) along with Backfire and Empathy on her as well. I think that using Midnight/Empathy on the pet that is not shackled would help also so that Danika is continually using energy, but you may run out of energy too if you do this...At any rate, I think she is beatable, but definitely the toughest of any of them.


 * Koss is a pussycat. Backfire, then Empathy and he is dead in about 5-10 seconds.
 * Gwen is a total cakewalk if you trick her into P-Draining something worthless right off the bat. Then you can Backfire her and she is out.
 * Nika goes down as fast as anyone since you can Backfire, then Empathy her before she knows what is coming.

As far as Bison goes, he is pretty easy providing you keep Ignorance/Midnight on him. However, I did notice that he gets a suspiciously high hit percentage under blind. He seems to consistently get two hits in a row against me, with the occasional three in a row (insta-kill). I am totally convinced that I was just getting bad luck though, I don't think he was actually cheating.


 * You're right that for most opponents, power return is irrelevant. Four casts of spiritual pain at 71 damage each is 284 damage, which presumably isn't enough to kill Razah, and then you're out of energy (or at least I would be).  I'd think you'd run out of energy before you could kill Razah with spiritual pain unless you had unusually high energy specialty gear, which I wouldn't want to rely on.  Regardless, if you're trying to pick a replacement skill, the relevant opponent that the build needs to beat is Danika, not Razah.  The build can beat Razah as given.  Quizzical 07:18, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I had trouble with Razah (probably gave him to much time to set up in the beginning). He would usually kill me in a few seconds after all of my stuff did nothing to him and his spirits, which is why I figured to add spiritual pain. Energy isn't an issue. You can't just stand there and hit him with 4 Pains (KD, spirit dmg, Doom, etc), you have to hit and run. You never run out of energy because there is a few seconds between each cast. However, if you can already kill him, it is worthless (how did you do it btw?). For Danika, I think it is doable with the current setup, either yours or mine, but I am not sure what would make it easier. Maybe Overload. It would be easy to put empathy on her, then backfire and then just overload the crap out of her (you'd have to have good relexes on Burst and Touch, but she is pretty predictable). It would make it so that she is taking 237 dmg on each spell (at 16), so she'd probably go down pretty quick. It would also make Cynn, Mhenlo, and others easier.

Knocking Bison down?
Someone suggested on the main page keeping Bison permanently knocked down as a way to beat him. I don't see how it's possible to do that, so I removed it. If you want to add it back, give a build that does. Even if it can be done, it would belong on a separate line, not the same one as blinding him. Quizzical 03:24, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Skill template for para/? build?
yeah anyone have it?
 * If have Factions, tried Any/Rt Norn Tournament Spirit Farmer? --Wolfie [[Image:Wolfie_sig.jpg|19px]] (talk|contribs) 04:44, 12 February 2008 (UTC)


 * No, no, no, no, no! The very reason why I went to so much trouble to clean up the article was to stop the demands for secondary professions!  If you're a paragon, you can beat M. Bison with paragon skills just fine.  Indeed, paragons actually match up pretty well with him.  Try using the paragon build on the main page.  Quizzical 05:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Monk Build Comment
I used the monk build straight off the front page, after a few aggravating shots of mhenlo, beat Magni. Thanks a ton for the build, but here are some of my comments: I put in a sup Smiting, because prot spirit offset the health loss. I was able to beat Devona, with some good timing. IGN Naiades Of Erebos

Assassin build
The assassin build in the "Single class builds" section is not as intuitive and easy to use as the pure assassin build list in the "Other builds" section. Suggest swapping the two. Like mentioned in the section "A standard Critical Strike assassin will also beat many opponents, including Magni." --Voidvector 22:45, 23 March 2008 (UTC)


 * If you want to move the new build up, give it a comparable degree of testing to the builds in the higher section. I made sure to try every build in the top section several times against M. Bison to make sure that it could usually beat him.  I also went enough trips through the tournament with each build to draw most of the earlier opponents and see how it would fare.  One reason why I redid the page was to get some degree of testing, rather than having a scrambled mess in which excellent builds freely mixed with useless garbage.
 * The other problem is gear requirements. The other point of the single class builds section is how to win as any class using just what you have.  It shouldn't require players to go buy alternate gear.  You can't get attributes to 15-12-9 with gear useful in most pve content.  The health maluses on that would be suicide in relatively challenging pve content, especially for assassins, which are reasonably fragile to begin with.
 * Finally, there is the question of whether or not the build actually works. I'll concede that trying to beat M. Bison with an assassin build based on blindness is somewhat awkward, but at least it usually works if used properly.  I tried very hard to beat him with various blocking builds, and never could come up with anything that worked with assassin skills without requiring a large helping of dumb luck.  I tried the new build listed (with 13 critical strikes) five times in the tournament, only reaching M. Bison once (if you draw an opponent that blinds you, you lose), and my one shot at M. Bison was a failure about on par with my earlier attempts at various blocking builds.  At the very least, if the obvious way to use the build doesn't work, it would need some strategy listed on what exactly you're supposed to do against Bison.  Quizzical 07:11, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I didn't try that build, but i did try the one listed in the main section. It is very awkward, I gave up after awhile. Then I loaded the build listed against Shiro on this page and I beat Bison on the 1st attempt. It is a "Critical Defenses" build, I have beaten Bison with it 4 out 5 times. Sometimes he would be able to knock me down twice in a row right before Critical Defenses refreshes, so I would die. Most of the time, he is not able to. Eve and Norgu are impossible with this build, Kisai and Gwen are difficult. You said its based on luck, but most of the builds are based on luck, because they cannot beat all of the opponents definitively. --Voidvector 21:00, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

11+1+1 Dagger Mastery, 6 Shadow Arts, 12+1 Critical Strikes


 * You're also using a pve-only skill there, which I tried to avoid using in the top section whenever possible. All that extra armor from critical agility might well be the difference between a blocking build being viable or not.  But again, if you want to put it in the single class build section, give it a comparable degree of testing to what is there, and record your results.  Keep track of exactly which opponents you've beaten, which you failed against, and which seemed like close enough battles that they could easily have gone the other way.  Go through the tournament enough times to draw most of the earlier opponents, so that you can see directly how it fares against them.  For each of the builds I posted in the section, I reached the fifth round of the tournament at least ten times, and often more.
 * I'm not intrinsically against other people putting builds in that section. What I am against is other people putting builds there without sufficient testing to know and be able to explain how well the build works against the various opponents you could draw.  Quizzical 21:13, 25 March 2008 (UTC)