User:Mendel/Talk Archive 11



I reserve the right to edit section titles to coincide with the section content. Size: bytes. =Comments= * gets out spray paint and writes "HI MENDEL!"* Jink  01:17, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

This section title does not coincide with the section contents.
These contents coincide with their corresponding section title. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 02:00, 20 February 2011 (UTC)


 * this comment is completely unrelated, insulting, and starts lots of drama.--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir 10:02, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * This comment rebukes the previous comment and despairs at the state of our youth today. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png|link=User:Felix Omni]] 15:22, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * This comment is nonsensical in an attempt to derail the drama. Jink  16:07, 20 February 2011 (UTC)
 * This would-be comment was cut off short by b& threat. The resulting nonsense guarantees much section lengthening, and of course my world-famous drama.  Yes, that sounds quite wondrous, Scythe's drama emporium, I can see the wiki beginning to thrive as people flock to us like vultures to a festering corpse.  I shall start a shop for it in real life pending the success of it here, and my fifth birthday.  &mdash;  Scythe   19:26, 20 Feb 2011 (UTC)

Questions and Answers
You've been asking a lot of questions lately, M.mendel. Demanding answers from our bureaucrats-to-be, and not giving straight answers yourself. You answer in riddles, backwards contradictions, indirect statements, and lawyering that their answer is wrong. What puts you above this? Is it just that no one else has the courage to confront you on this, or no one cares? Or maybe they are the content with bureaucratic bullshit like this, just maybe. I think almost everyone expects their RfAs to pass without the pointless WoT, questioning, and over-reading into the wiki's userbase. Personally, I think that the wiki is nearly purely populated and activated by various peoples' ramblings. But that's getting off-topic.

What puts you in a position where you are qualified to ask these questions? What puts you in a position to decide that they are worth asking? No, I don't think I have the right to say they're not, I'm merely voicing an opinion and not immediately acting on it without consensus. What makes you so superior, so exempt from common procedure, and better?

What should happen when the votes are say, 14/15 for/against in an RfA? Should it be run again, extended, or should bias and bureaucracy happen? The only way you present for it to happen is for the content of, and makers of the votes to be weighed. According to policy this is disallowed. In a one-vote-to-one-vote situation basing the pass or fail of the petition on a user's time on the wiki, or contributions to the wiki is acting on a public bias of a user's theoretical worth, and goes against most ideals. As far as I know, you should strive towards not away from these ideals. Therefore, weighing users on anything other than community rank (aka sysops, bureaucrat, regular user, and rollback) is negative, and should be frowned upon.

Cunning personal attacks are no better than regular personal attacks. neither are ones burying in 'legitimate'. "Thanks for putting your debating prowess into perspective for me." The immediately preceding quote was a sly, implicit personal attack made by none other than you. Why are you allowed to make them -repeatedly -without consequence?

I expect the following: A legitimate, straightforward, non-lawyering of "you are so wrong" answer.

I will be severely disappointed if I get: "you've failed so bad so many times I'm not even going to answer.

So, M.mendel, what do you have to say for yourself? &mdash; Scythe   0:16, 21 Feb 2011 (UTC)


 * What puts you above this? -- Nobody puts me above anything, I asked some questions of the candidates because I was curious what their answers would be. It turned out I see things differently than they do, and I tried to explain that.
 * What puts you in a position where you are qualified to ask these questions? -- I didn't know one had to be qualified. What's wrong with the questions?
 * What puts you in a position to decide that they are worth asking? -- I am a member of this wiki community; when I feel a question is worth asking, I ask it.
 * What makes you so superior, so exempt from common procedure, and better? -- With respect to this issue only, I am superior because I came up with questions and asked them; if anybody else had done the same, they would have been my equal.
 * What should happen when the votes are say, 14/15 for/against in an RfA? -- This is currently impossible, as we only have one active bureaucrat, so it would be either one vote for or one vote against. This is not gww:, where admins or bureaucrats are voted in; our bureaucrats hand out promotions based on reasoned argument, which the whole community is invited to participate in.
 * Should it be run again, extended, or should bias and bureaucracy happen? -- "Bureaucacy" happens. The bureaucrat determines what's best for the wiki and promotes other bureaucrats and admins on that basis. The bureaucrat will do whatever is needed to ensure this.
 * Therefore, weighing users on anything other than community rank (aka sysops, bureaucrat, regular user, and rollback) is negative -- you misunderstood GW:YAV; that policy says the exact opposite, namely, that a user's opinion will not be weighed according to their "community rank", but stands on its own (and the editor's own) merits.
 * Cunning/sly personal attacks -- I am sorry that came across as an attack. I knew you claimed to be good at scholastic debate, and I overestimated your general debating abilities based on that, because apparently I know very little about the school debate system. That overestimation of you that I had is now somewhat corrected, that's all. (The second link adresses Giga's post, not yours.)
 * I consider my wiki discussions as conversations among equals. I hope I was able to answer all your questions. --◄mendel► 01:15, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I believe you misunderstand me somewhat. I'm asking what puts you in a position where you are eligible to ask bureaocrats about their wiki-related theories.  Some people hold these thoughts as private, and some are either unsure, or haven't conjured them yet.  I'm asking what makes you think you should be able to decide when they should reveal these.
 * 14/15 was a user-vote circumstance ie: 15 support 14 against.
 * Doing whatever is needed is somewhat disturbing.
 * You misunderstand my use of YAV, I'm saying the only possible way to rank user's votes is by community rank-that was a separate thought. I was saying YAV says you cannot weigh them on anything else.
 * Oh, on the second link, we are having communication issues. &mdash; Scythe   3:02, 21 Feb 2011 (UTC)
 * One of the key points of a wiki is transparency. If a candidate wished to hide their views on running the wiki they could simply ignore the question, but it wouldn't make them very supportable. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png|link=User:Felix Omni]] 03:13, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * What makes you think you should be able to decide when they should reveal these -- I don't decide what the answers reveal, I just ask the question and leave the answering up to the others. As I've said, I consider my wiki discussions as conversations among equals. I did ask you what was wrong with my questions; it's not as if I'd asked anyone for their underwear sizes (though I wouldn't be surprised if the candidates chose to reveal them ;).
 * I seem to not understand your notion of "community rank", could you please clarify: what is "community rank"? I've never heard of the concept before. --◄mendel► 15:57, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Community rank is a concept I have. It's basically built around a wiki social hierarchy, consisting of Users, Sysopses, and Bureaucrats.  The what they reveal business is less a matter of learning something about a user, and more a matter of them possibly not having a ready answer, or thinking one is not necessary.  I do not consider your conversations, which read as interrogations, as among equals. &mdash;  Scythe   17:30, 21 Feb 2011 (UTC)


 * Scythe, I think you're seriously out of line with this. Anyone can ask questions, and the ones that get asked can decide for themselves whether they'll answer. As seen in YAV, there is no "community rank" here. Everyone is perfectly equal. Some people have shown themselves to be trustworthy and useful and could get admin powers, but that does not in any way elevate them above other users in social status, they actually just get some more responsibilities that they're willing to fulfil. If someone has serious issues with an admin candidate, he/she can say so and outline his/her reasoning, and it's not that if he's not a regular user or admin or something that people won't listen to him. I think I'm getting slightly off topic with that last bit, but let me just tell you that if I was Mendel, I would have been offended by what you wrote there.--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir 18:08, 21 February 2011 (UTC)


 * re 14/15: The votes aren't actually votes, just opinions of The People(TM). Even a 1/15 RFA can pass if the bcrat wills it so. --Vipermagi 18:18, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
 * If the opposition had a convincing argument against, even a 26/3 RfA would not pass - and vice versa. Have a look here for an example. El Nazgir is correct, btw, GW:YAV means we cannot have a rank system based on user/sysop/bureaucrat. If one user's opinion carries more weight than another's, that is because we know from their past record here that they understand the issues concerned well. --◄mendel► 18:53, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

ehh, it appears I have been looking at all of this completely wrong, sorry guys. &mdash; Scythe   21:59, 22 Feb 2011 (UTC)

Category confusion
If you take a look here, under the B area, you'll notice Bay of Sirens there. However, there are no categories in said page. I think I saw another article like this, but I don't recall which. What's up with this? :/ -- Konig / talk 04:38, 21 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Coming from the fact that it's redirected to Sea of Sorrows, which does include those cats? It is strange that both BoS and SoS are listed in two of the three categories, but not Category:Regions. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 05:06, 21 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I would chalk it up to a laggy database server that failed to complete all the necessary database transactions when you converted Bay of Sirens into a redirect. I just performed a null edit, and it no longer shows up in the Lore category.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 05:10, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

re: IRC
Yeah, I'd noticed those entries in WantedFiles earlier. They appear to be generated only because the DPL can't actually run on those pages, so MW parses the raw DPL code as standard wiki-text before it gets replaced by the DPL warning. Yet another reason to get Curse to lift the DPL restriction. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 05:08, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
 * No, the Ranger armor page did generate an entry as well although it is/was protected, until I changed it (and WhatLinksHere for that entry apparently took a while to update). Apparently the link parser does parse inside tags, but with the PAGE parameter being passed by DPL it doesn't see that, so we have a way to avoid this behaviour. Going through Special:WantedFiles 500 at a time and looking for % signs, right now this only affects pages in your and my namespace (and I think I found a way to fix the MTG galleries). It's only 4 entries though, so it's doubtful whether it's worth much effort at this point (and if you pre-tag your Sandbox2, only 2 entries). --◄mendel► 09:42, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Bump (you seemed to have addressed an entirely different point)

 * Context: Admin noticeboard convo on Topic = Bump

You seemed to have addressed the issue of what a bump is for, rather than whether my maintenance edit fixed a typo or confused the point you were trying to make. I know what bump is for, Mendel; this didn't appear to be one.
 * The topic of candidates for deletion hadn't (as near as I can tell) previously been raised; again doesn't apply.
 * Your edit appeared to turn this this page into a candidate for deletion. "Surely," I thought, "that couldn't be Mendel's intention," so I edited the link.
 * Of course, I could have been wrong, which is why I asked, "if I was wrong ...*please* clarify" so that you could add some context if you reverted.
 * (Then, I reminded myself to stop calling myself, surely.)
 * If my intent had been to raise the profile of Category:Candidates for deletion, I would have called the topic, Request to delete or some such, providing some context to edit in the first place.

My point is that your edit had unintended consequences (as well as intended ones). An extra 3-4 words would have avoided any confusion (and, naturally, you get a mulligan for the missing colon; happens to everyone). — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 17:04, 26 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I thank you for fixing my mistake. I'm sorry I hadn't made that clear earlier. I would surely have reverted you if I intended to have the noticeboard deleted, and I would have used a deletion template. Monitoring the candidates for deletion is a permanent admin responsibility, so the bump did bring it to attention when it had been brought to attention before, even if not recently or by me. If like a more explicit answer, you'll do well to ask me directly. Felix did, as a reply to my bump, and I explained to him what I thought he wanted to know. --◄mendel► 23:35, 26 February 2011 (UTC)


 * You are welcome for the fix. I never needed an explicit answer (or any details at all). I was confused by the use of a context-specific convention without being able to see the context. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 01:28, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

[ removing May's colon]
Wow, I had no clue you were a gastroenterologist. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 15:54, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I couldn't resist the ambiguity. ;-P --◄mendel► 17:11, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

High-use user templates
--◄mendel► 21:19, 1 March 2011 (UTC)
 * User:Ruricu/Character -- needs image parameter
 * User:Kirbman/CharacterTemplate -- needs image parameter
 * User:Entropy/skills/template -- checked

Recursive aruments and relativety
The header-linked edit appears to me as completely unconstructive. Above, you critized one of my posts with these words: [...] Wouldn't this apply to your recent comment on the headers change proposal as well? What Ari said on the proposed headers has nothing to do with the discussion on AGF, and is irrelevant. While I know you were not trying to derail the conversation, I feel this is the effect it could have, as it has no relevance.

Just a guess: is the type of "negative" you have in mind the same as "controversial, provocative, challenging"? You criticize something Ari wrote as challenging, but the sentence in itself is challenging. This is, however, where the world is broken, because it boils down to "when you call a rude person rude you are being rude". There is no way to handle this, and I think that everyone, as well as myself would prefer if that point were dropped.

Lately, I've seen the whole your comment contributed nothing constructive argument thrown around all willy-nilly, and I don't like it. It's using an argument that is a 'hard-edged' sort of "well, you had nothing constructive to say at the time, so stfu" attempt to end the conversation with an individual. Arguing semantics such as the merit of a comment not only slows down and potentially derails a conversation, but it muddies the waters around the issues at hand.

This comment is on your talk page since it is mainly aimed at you, but I feel that several of us have contributed in the above -negative -ways, and think it is for the best if users stop arguing with such a style, as it is minimally effective on a content basis, but highly effective on a "cut straight to their core and end it" premise.

With the community's best interests at heart, ∵Scythe∵ 01:09, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Apologies, I could have sworn that the indentation was pointed at Ari. However, my points/'guidelines' still stand.  ∵Scythe∵ 01:25, 10 March 2011 (UTC)


 * No, the fact that it is aimed at Dr Ishmael changes quite a few things, unless you feel that my thought of him complaining at me doing stuff he does himself is without basis. Why should I have to abide by a higher standard than he himself?
 * Dr Ishmael calls my statements "negative", and this is a very broad term; I'm attempting to narrow it down, because there are quite a few ways in which my posts are not negative. Mind you, I don't know what Dr Ishmael had in mind, so I may be completely off with my suggestion. The three adjectives are supposed to apply to me and my posts, not to anyone else.
 * You don't like the "not constructive" argument, and neither do I. Dr Ishmael has used it on his talkpage 3 days ago to criticize me, and I am trying to illustrate the way it fails by applying it to himself. I did not say "you weren't constructive either, nya nya nya", I tried to convey that if the roles had been reversed on the headers issue, he'd have probably criticized me the very same way -- it's simply a standard we usually don't abide by in discussions (though it's certainly worth it to try).
 * Given these misunderstandings, could you please summarize for me what kind of discussion style it is that we could do without, and that I have? --◄mendel► 05:07, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Note also that "Wouldn't this apply ..." leaves open the possibility that Dr Ishmael thinks it does not, and explains to me what the difference is (which would also be a positive step forward)(and since it's all public, anybody else could explain, too). --◄mendel► 10:27, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 *  *sigh* ... Mendel, I know you mean well, but sometimes trying to push for changes too much can cause a back fire... Some people like old ways, but Ish doesn't seem to realize that most want the changes in Headers and he wants to leave things as they are... Not any wiki, not even guildwars.wikia belongs to certain people or person... I think if there are changes, permit the changes or apply those ideas and see if they'd work with other things and that is also if they won't work in certain areas. I know that if a community wants changes, let the changes happen. If someone wants to be negative and claim differently, that's their view even if I don't agree that it should have been posted. For example, Ish not liking the headers changes. Tef and you have tried to get positive suggestions at least from him. I've yet to see that and I'd love to see it. To me, to call someone's actions negative, one ought to look at themselves... I don't try to view any thing written on here as negative. I never have on any wiki and it does bother me for those that do and the communities seem to agree with them, without actually stepping back and looking... Without going, "hey that person is being negative, not the person it's being blamed on". I feel that if someone finds themselves to write a post like, "I don't want changes" or "I'm going to change my stuff to the old way if there are changes", to not do that as it's a negative post. If they find themselves to write that they think someone else is being negative or on things they don't like, I'd rather see that they don't... To avoid any hostility, one should write more so positive and not negative... I feel that if someone doesn't like something to give the reason why, if they feel they need to or give positive suggestions. From what I've noticed in places is that negative comments, suggestions, or statements tend to not only be bigger discussions, but cause issues and that has to have administration involvement. If people could learn to work around their differences, we'd have less problems... However, things don't always work out like that and the best one can do is work at it or let it simmer and give others a chance. I do think you're trying your best, but just let things simmer and give others, even Jink, a chance... I hope that you and ish can work together, but to constantly either be at each other's throats or try to push and push at one to work with you is not the best thing to do even with the best of intentions at heart. As I've said just a moment ago, maybe try to get others to help you get him to work with you, but not in a "demanding" or "I'm not seeing enough AGF" way... All one can do is ask for suggestions, ideas, and help, but if they push for it... They'd get backlashed... I hope this helps. Ariyen 16:21, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I've "let it simmer" time and again, to no avail.
 * Dr Ishmael does realize that people want the headers changed, and he wrote he would tolerate that, even if he didn't like it. I'm fine with that. His detailed criticism is helpful.
 * I agree that if someone is being "negative" and they give the reason why or make another suggestion, they're helping to make things better (and if they don't, I can ignore them or ask them). --◄mendel► 16:36, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Another approach could be to go at a different angle with suggestions, if there may not be a response, etc. Just I wouldn't push on something, when suggesting it one way... I'd try another way/a different approach. Ariyen 16:41, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Mendel, this is exactly what I'm talking about... "I've "let it simmer" time and again, to no avail."

- mendel This type of cynical wording often leads users to think one is being more negative than they may intend. This has also been brought up on your talkpage since you posted here, as I decided to stay away from this for a day and let it mule over in my head before I said something I regretted. I feel that the timing discrepancy does nothing to lessen the point, and that Ish would agree with me. I know it's difficult, as you're personally involved, but the sarcasm, cynicism and general negativity you have both been using lately can be nothing but a hindrance to the smooth dealing with of the ordeal. I think if everyone could just put the past behind and begin this with a totally open, non-hostile approach, it could finally be resolved. ∵Scythe∵ 21:35, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks re:Template:TitleBars
I must be half asleep today. I checked both pages using Template:TitleBars with that option and still didn't notice I broke it on the one page. -.- Nwash   13:15, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, I had run the DPL to display the parameters; and knowing that parameter, I figured the code would break even before checking the page for confirmation. So I had an advantage over you. >.< It's possible the page was slow to update. --◄mendel► 13:29, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

I have stopped reading...
I have stopped reading what you have posted to/about Ish. (Not that it should matter, but the camel's backbreaking straw was seeing, "you need to apologize" in an edit summary.) I don't know who started what or who suffered more at the words of the other. I care only to the extent that I care about you and Ish as people.

And, of course, I am still reading what you post elsewhere; I find (save this issue) your contributions and presence on the wiki make it a better place.

Fix it, ignore it, quit the wiki, rage at the wiki, rage at me... it's up to you. I hope, however, that you will find a way to work things out; I am confident that the two of you can work well together. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 04:44, 13 March 2011 (UTC)


 * You're taking the edit summary out of context; it is a reply to Ishmael's last post before that one, on the same page, where he apologizes, and my edit summary is simply rejecting this apology as insufficient. There were some misunderstandings involved, which seem to have been mostly cleared up on irc, though the flames must've been a sight to see for the onlookers. --◄mendel► 05:57, 13 March 2011 (UTC)


 * You have missed my point then. (It's hardly relevant to the camel that it wasn't a straw that broke its back, but a rose petal imported from distant lands.) — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 17:34, 13 March 2011 (UTC)


 * That I have not commented on your point does not mean I missed it. If you requested such a comment of me, I could provide one, but it would be critical (of course). My previous reply served another purpose. --◄mendel► 18:43, 13 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I am sorry that I wasn't more effective in making my point; if I had, it would be clear that I don't (any longer) care about the context.  — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 20:27, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * This is the weirdest aggression I've ever seen. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png|link=User:Felix Omni]] 20:47, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Rest assured that you were indeed effective in making your point; I fully understood. --◄mendel► 21:54, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

response
I had wanted to write something poignant/insightful/whathaveyou in response to your request on IRC, but I've been sick since then, so I haven't really felt like working on that. And since I fail at words in any case, I'll just make it simple.

Yes, I am willing to make an effort to stop overreacting to you. I'm still of the opinion that you need to be more conscious of the effect you have on people (how can that make you less open-minded, anyway? I'd think one would be more open-minded for recognizing others' opinions of oneself), but I'm not going to waste any time arguing with you on that matter. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 15:00, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your faith in me. Let's make it work together.
 * For most people, being conscious of their effect means re-reading what they wrote; when I do that with my texts, asking myself "how would I react if I read that", I think "I'd be fine with that" and am very surprised when other people are not. So this process of making certain of my effect always involves running my writing past someone else; and since the people I trust with this tend to be busy these days, I can't do that very often. Curse of the Carebear, you might say. ;-P --◄mendel► 01:24, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm always here, jink is pretty free too (or at least appears to be, anyway). ∵Scythe∵ 01:38, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I hope you won't hold it against me if I don't rely on your advice, Scythe. Gotta get me one of those signs, though. ;) --◄mendel► 02:37, 17 March 2011 (UTC)


 * You're asking the wrong question - it doesn't matter how you would react to it; you wrote it, so of course you'd be fine with it. Instead, the question is, "How will the person I'm talking to react when he/she reads it?"  Granted, you don't always know enough about the other person to answer that question accurately, so you could generalize it to something like, "How have other people in the past reacted to the tone / words / phrasing in what I wrote?"  I would think that you'd have more than enough empirical evidence to figure that out, without the need to run it past someone else.
 * In short: if you refuse to make any attempt to modify your posting style, then you're going to continue to (unintentionally) incite drama like this because other people will continue to react to you in the same way.
 * And yes, I do see that as unfair. You're basically saying, "This is how I am, folks, get used to it or GTFO."  To purloin an example you used on IRC, if I went to work every day dressed as a hobo (where the dress code is towards the business end of the "business casual" spectrum), and told my managers that "This is how I am, I'm not gonna change," they'd fire me within a week, regardless of how well I did my job.  [edit] I just realized that the end of that might sound like a threat to you (i.e. change or we'll fire you from the wiki).  That's not what I intended, it was just the easiest comparison I could come up with.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 14:05, 17 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I believe you do not understand why it is that I cannot do what you ask. Or if you do understand, you do not explain it in a way that lets me understand. From my understanding, doing what you seem to tell me to do will not achieve what you want it to (remove the frustration people feel with me); to achieve what you want, there is a price that I do not want to pay, and that I think is bad for the wiki if I pay it. I also expect that you do not believe what I wrote in the previous sentence, though I might be wrong. If you do not believe me, and if you do not want to learn about me, then explanations are futile. Are they?
 * You ask me to do a quite complex thing. You know how hard it is to abide by a simple rule like "no personal attacks", yet you expect me to fulfill a far more complicated task with less support. I can't but feel complimented by your expectations, but I fear you overrate me. --◄mendel► 02:25, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Since my above reply basically says "I won't explain", I thought I could do better than that. Show a little goodwill, if you'd like. Especially since I know full well how to prevent people having negative reactions to what I write: what has worked for me in the past is to hold off writing, understand myself and the situation more fully, and then write a more fully reasoned reply than I would otherwise have. This sentiment mirrors the distinction between writing "criticism" and a "full review" that I made in my WoT on your talkpage. This is the only way I know how to do this.
 * It means I cannot write any half-reasoned pieces any more. I cannot say, here's what we need to think about, before I've thought about it. If I do, I need to expect people to misunderstand me, attack me because parts of what I wrote were wrong, and I need to abandon the hope that other people's public responses are likely to help me gain understanding. If I seek that, I need to ask other people privately, or wikidrama will surely result. Well, it might. Possibly. So I can't do that.
 * I don't want to do that. If you ask me to give up the hope that thinking together is better than thinking alone, transparency and all, then I might as well give up the wiki, for what point is there with that then?
 * You see this as unfair. You say I should word myself less offensively. Have a look at the admin board, the AGF section, where I use phrases like "I do not understand", "it appears to me that ..." and "I wish that ..". You counter my proposal that there might be something wrong with our AGF ideal with a simple denial: "Mendel, this isn't a problem with AGF". There's no argument, there are no polite phrases, this is an outright "no", with no argument attached. Why are you allowed to write like this, and I'm not? Isn't that unfair?
 * I already made the argument before (that got labeled as me trying to make you into a hypocrite) that I am writing no different than you do, yet I am the one who needs to change. I see nothing wrong with this kind of writing. I have proposed that we enforce the attitude that our ideals say we should be taking when dealing with writing like that, the one that GuildWiki traditionally has promoted as effective. But you say that's unfair. Why?
 * I was going to get personal in this paragraph, but it's too late for me to pull this off properly. Maybe some other time. --◄mendel► 03:04, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I know I've said this before, but this time I mean it &mdash; I give up on arguing this matter with you. I don't know if it's me, or you, or something in between, but somehow the ideas that I think I'm trying to express are not the same ideas that you are interpreting from my posts.  Probably it's me.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 04:13, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


 * As for your points against me, I freely admit them. I know I'm not perfect, I know I make mistakes, especially when I'm posting in anger or frustration.  And that's why I've been trying to prevent myself from posting when I'm in those states (which I admittedly haven't done a very good job of so far).  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 05:19, 18 March 2011 (UTC)


 * somehow the ideas that I think I'm trying to express are not the same ideas that you are interpreting from my posts -- well, then you know how I feel. Maybe you should change your writing style, I hear that helps.
 * These are not points against you. These are points about you. There's a difference. I've also made an argument against your demands. This is an argument designed to come to a mutual understanding. But that's when you give up so we never do. I never get to know what ideas (if any) you get from my posts. --◄mendel► 07:15, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Policy proposal: Be 50% wrong!
Shortcuts: GW:MENDEL, GW:WRONG

Proposed policy: Mendel is not allowed to be right more than 50% of the time; the rest of the time, he is to accept that he is wrong.

Reasoning: Anything else would be uncompromising, and we cannot resolve issues in a balanced manner without both sides giving equally; that would create a power vacuum or struggle instead of a solution. (Adapted from [];)

Thoughts? --◄mendel► 03:13, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Basing that on Scythe? He's one voice, The others have spoken as well, but I don't think they'd be in agreement with what he says about half the time. I'd trust others whom have been here longer. He just joined in December 2010 on the 5th. I know others have been here longer. I've been here since November 10, 2009. With someone still so new to the wiki, It's not easy to trust their judgments that much. Ariyen 03:45, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I thought we could all have a laugh. Sadly, TEF didn't think this as jokular as I. --◄mendel► 07:07, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Seeing that, brought a smile to my face. I needed to smile with the dealings of a stubborn 2 year old. Ariyen 07:13, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Ariyen, "me name means nothing, my age less." I've not been here long, but I've been involved with 'important' business the entire time.  Furthermore, you are not to apply a 'status hierarchy' to users.
 * Mendel while this initially gave me a chuckle, it soon grew to irritate me. You broke context and implication citing me.  I did not intend to mean anything remotely like you must be wrong often.  I meant that saying you would not change is just being stubborn, and will not resolve allow anything to be resolved.  ∵Scythe∵ 20:05, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Scythe, Look you keep getting involved in things and you have people telling you what not to do. You don't listen. Like for instance, Mendel said he would not take your advice and I won't either, because you don't know what is going on or reading what all is happening or has been happening for longer than you've been here. Hence, you barging in when you don't know what's going on. I'm giving you the same advice as Wyn gave me. Just stop and actually see how others do things here, type, etc. before you input. After all, you have Mendel wanting to ignore your advice and I can't blame him. You ignore the facts of people are wanting to change, but not change from being who they are. Just like that I won't change from being who I am, but I don't tell half the things that you do here. You've done said things at the wrong time, not giving other parties a chance that needed or should have a chance. Hence, they took it to Irc, while you were gone. Thank goodness you didn't interrupt them and left. Sure I should have Applied YAV, but you didn't apply other policies as well when you accused me of being the majority. Hello, did you forget that each of us only speak for ourselves? I wasn't the only one on your talk page telling you that there's a time to speak and a time not to. If you want to scream agf and write up a wot? You'd only cause more drama. Just stop and realize what you're doing. Ariyen 20:34, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Scythe, this is a line of argument similar to yours applied to something totally different, and it doesn't mean you would have applied the same argument in the same circumstance. I did not cite you, I used your argument as a blueprint for mine. That's it. --◄mendel► 22:01, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

if I went to work every day dressed as a hobo
In wiki terms, the drunken hobo is the guy who randomly insults everyone, picks arguments over minor issues while completing having lost a sense of perspective, and pisses in the corner (i.e. gets offtopic fast on pages where it's not on). He's likely to be a troll as well.

I'd be the guy who refuses to wear a tie to work and talks back to the boss; not a wise career move in many outfits, I'll admit, but somewhat more classy. ;) --◄mendel► 22:13, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I am dazed, shocked, and hurt that you think I'm trolling. ∵Scythe∵ 22:28, 18 March 2011 (UTC)
 * So is it ok if we call you Wiki Hobo, then? --◄mendel► 02:02, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I prefer raggedy clothed boxcar rider... ∵Scythe∵ 03:21, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Twitter
No, we were in digital media class (=irl school) which is basically photoshop (using crappy old v5.0). A friend called me over since I'm the equivalant of an information banquet around here and/or the jesus of knowledge. Anyway, they had done a bunch of stuff after merging some layers and the realized that merging the layers would make their life much harder and wished to only undo the merge, which I said was not possible without undoing everything else. Since photoshop doesn't keep a separate history for layers (=merge/mask/adjustment layer) and they just assumed it did. The "That's not fair!" was basically a omgwtfbbq why doesn't it do what I want all the time and know what I want! Spam undo was basically the most logical quick response. ∵Scythe∵ 19:33, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Warning.
You have been getting more and more aggressive towards people lately, starting conflicts where there hadn't even been a spark. You have called RT a "tool", which is irrefutably a PA, so I'm giving you a strong warning. Stop attacking people, be less blunt. If you want to note something about someone, do it politely, and don't go and call people names before they've even had a chance to clarify their position. If you don't, you'll be banned. This is not a discussion, this is a warning. --El_Nazgir 14:06, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Noted. --◄mendel► 17:36, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Out of curiosity, what are the other conflicts I'm supposed to have started out of thin air? --◄mendel► 17:48, 25 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Admin noticeboard. --[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir 17:50, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok, apparently I was wrong (and at least one other admin publicly agrees with you on both counts) to have seen issues with these edits and raised them: [], []. Also, apparently I wasn't polite enough on the admin noticeboard, either. Makes me glad I'm not administering this wiki any more, because I can't understand that. I'll stay clear of offending anyone in the future. --◄mendel► 18:24, 25 March 2011 (UTC)


 * You're mangling my points. you started a conflict where there was none in the admin notice board. I didn't say you were impolite there. You and Ishmael have issues. You're both adults, but when it comes to a conflict, you're both squabbling like little children using technical terms and words. You need to calm down about him, he has to calm down about it, and both of you should start acting like adults about your conflict and talk it out. And indeed, I do not see the issue with the first edit. The second one was a bit out of the blue, I agree, but I have seen your reaction to neither of them (unless that second one directly preceded the noticeboard).--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir 19:28, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
 * OK, let's back up a bit and make sure we're on the same page.
 * You told me that the conflicts I started "where there hadn't even been a spark" were located on the noticeboard, and I assume you were referring to Talk page administration and GW:AGF, is that correct?
 * I also assumed that your NPA warning encompassed to these conflicts, but from your latest response I gather that you didn't mean to convey that I personally attacked people on these, only on Randomtime's talkpage. Is that correct?
 * I cited you two links that I consider to be "sparks" for the initial noticeboard posts listed in 1. I think you're trying to tell me your opinion of this with your latest response here, but I'm not really sure from your language ("do not see the issue" / "was a bit out of the blue") whether you agree with my point that these contributions not made by me count as "sparks". Could you please clarify?
 * I guess this is the same point as the previous one in another wording. Do you feel that these two conflicts happened because I had some genuine issues I hoped the adminship and editorship of the wiki could help me with, or do you feel I was pursuing some ulterior motives that work to the detriment of the wiki? Or something else?
 * If there's anything I should clarify, please ask. --◄mendel► 21:01, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Mendel, I have never (and I don't think anyone else ever has, aside from RTs' talk) questioned that you were aiming to help the wiki in the end, I/we just do not agree with your methods and words used to do it. ∵Scythe∵ 21:43, 25 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I wasn't really around actively when the talk page administration thing happened, and while I did watch it from afar, I didn't feel like going over all of it when I had more time on my hands. I'm currently referring to the AGF and RT's thing with this. Now, I didn't know (as was evident from my previous post) that the AGF was the immediate follow-up on what Ish said there, but I still stand by what I said on the AGF there. It was imo, not the correct way of handling it. The single actual PA I saw from you (as far as I recall), was on RT. Personally, I have no idea what to think of your intentions at RT, or when you started the AGF debate, but as scythe said, I know you always have the best intentions, but as I recently said to someone IRL, the best intentions can cause the worst of outcomes. That doesn't take away the fact that you've been behaving rather bluntly towards other users lately. --[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir 21:53, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for clarifying. --◄mendel► 21:58, 25 March 2011 (UTC)
 * While I can understand you both, I don't agree with a third person interrupting giving their opinion that's not entirely accurate as I do agree with some of Mendel's methods (just like I do agree with some of Ish's methods). El, you said it best, "The best intentions can cause the worse of outcomes." Also, I think we all need to remember and I'm quite sure that most of us knows that we only speak for ourselves, not the whole community. The policies/guidelines represents to me, the majority of the community as well as those we elect to help represent the majority decisions, etc.and helps determines the right course of action when there's dispute between users. With that said, I believe it's why Mendel went to the Admin board to solve an issue that he didn't feel was right. When nothing was "solved" or seemed not a problem. Agf happened. I don't blame mendel for his ways and I don't blame you all. However, I don't feel getting after each other solves anything either.  I do not agree with the Pa on RandomTime and that should not have happened. I will say this, we take things too far one way or another. A wiki should not be something that's too serious, nor should it be something taken too lightly. I hope you two can settle on an agreement. :-) Ariyen 22:25, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Warning (Part 2; the unofficial version)
You seem to have mislaid the warning that El Nazgir tried to present as graciously as such things are possible. I'm going to list several general comments about your recent behavior, outline why I believe those behaviors to be bad for the community, and ask that you try to listen to what I am trying to tell you.

I also think there ought to be consequences for your most egregious actions. I have no power to impose them. At most, I can ask you, once again, to listen to this critique more thoughtfully than you have in the past. (My words will fail at some point to convey my intended meaning; I ask that you try as best you can to focus on what I am trying to tell you rather than pick apart the rhetoric.)


 * 1) Over the past months, you increasingly choose to open conversations with extreme rhetoric, up to and including personal attacks (both direct and indirect).
 * 2) When the target of your words reacts poorly to your tactics, you accuse them of being thin-skinned and say that you are bewildered by their reaction.
 * 3) When called to task by other people, you dance around the issue and, at best, issue a non-apology using the right words (I'm sorry or I apologize), but without actually expressing remorse for your actions. I'm sorry if anyone thought is not an apology for your behavior.
 * 4) At times, you focus on minutiae in discussions, which derails the conversation from the original topic. In context with your aggressive openings, this gives the appearance that you intend to distract rather than argue the merits.
 * 5) You use policy in ways that stifle debate, but you reject other people's attempts to point out how your behavior is inconsistent with the spirit and/or letter of policy.

I'm not going to present the supporting details for two reasons:
 * These issues are not new; people (including myself) have laid out many examples for you in the past.
 * Over the past months, you have often directed your comments towards minor problems with the examples (see also: point 4), but without ever addressing the primary concerns (see also: point 3).

These behaviors are bad for the wiki for many reasons, the most important of which are:
 * It creates gratuitous tension for the wiki.
 * It makes the wiki appear to be an unsafe place for discussion, never mind to voice a contrary opinion.
 * It distracts the efforts and attention of the community from documenting the game (in theory, our primary purpose) to dealing with the latest drama.
 * It distracts from the important issues you are raising.

I would like to be glad that those issues were raised (I, too, think they are important), but instead, we end up debating about the tactics used in the debate.

If this were the workplace and I your colleague, this is the time I would be asking, is anything wrong in your home life that might be causing you to behave differently at work? If there is, I am sorry to be adding to the stress, but I don't apologize for asking you to be more professional going forward; I know from experience that you can choose to do so. — Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 20:18, 26 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I was going to let this stand, but upon re-reading your post, I find that I do want to comment and ask for some clarifications. I'm sorry this is going to be pretty point-by-point.
 * I can't really speak to your point 1, as I didn't do the long-term research; I know my rhetoric was pretty bad at times in 2008, e.g. PanSola objecting to it on one of Warwick's RfA talks. I'd also want to examine other people's rhetoric in comparison; but for lack of effort, I'll just say "close enough" and let your point stand.
 * Point 2 and 3 are explained by me not intending to personally attack people; this explains why I am bewildered by the reaction and do not show remorse. Of course I could just be hypocritical about what constitutes a personal attack, and apply more lenient standards to myself than to others; or to not realize that I do, in fact, I comment on the contributor when I believe I am commenting on the content; or it could stem from me not seeing personal attacks on me when other people would, and thus have a different standard of them (this might require some psychoanalysis to support). I would like to have this explained to me in detail if any of these are the case. (I don't recall where I accused anyone of being thin-skinned.) To examine my standards, you might start [ here].
 * Re: points 4 and 5 and your second bullet, I have been looking through some pages in search for evidence back to January and sometimes farther: my talk and archives, Forum:Bureaucrats, Admin noticeboard, CP talk, and User_talk:Ariyen/Archive_Jan-June. I found you making this point ("nitpicking poor phrasing on my part and ignoring the key idea.") in that latter section, and I think it's invalid there. I could not identify the problems you speak of ("you have often directed your comments towards minor problems with the examples[..], but without ever addressing the primary concerns") on these pages otherwise. I have consciously avoided pages involving exchanges between Dr Ishmael and myself, because these issues are yet unresolved, full of misunderstandings, and consist in large part of differences in opinion what the "key ideas" actually are, so any discussion about me missing key ideas is likely to be difficult to keep going in a productive way. (Mind you, if you want to try, be my guest.)
 * Re: many examples: could you link to some?
 * For your last 4 bullet points, they rest upon the premise that it is my behaviour that is causing this upset. I submit that this is in part due to me raising important issues (which you acknowledge); important issues are typically those where no consensus exists, and those create conflict easily because of their nature, expose existing tensions, and take up community effort, but for a good reason. Why do you not criticise others for discussing "minutiae" of my posts ("end up debating about the tactics used in the debate") without "adressing [my] primary concerns"? How do you see your own role in these? Have you ever raised an important concern and had it resolved without conflict?
 * I talked about the stresses being imposed on me at length in an email to you; if any, they're rooted in the wiki and have been growing since February last year. (I do not propose that this excuses anything.)
 * I promise you that I'm not going to raise any issues on this wiki in an unprofessional way. --◄mendel► 10:19, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * You know, I couldn't figure out why your last paragraph felt like a cheap shot to me, but now I think I have it: means, motive, and opportunity - you have tried to show means and opportunity, but came up short on "why does he do it? what is he getting out of it?" -- and rather than think about your observations in that light, you suggest it is because there's something "wrong in [my] home life". If you strike this theory, can you still tell me:
 * Why do I behave like that?
 * How does it profit me?
 * --◄mendel► 13:50, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Not to mention that in the context of a discussion, that paragraph is a personal attack: "you argue that way because of ". --◄mendel► 15:42, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

tl;dr
If you just thought that while looking at the above, here's my take of what TEF told me, brought to an (exaggerated) point: I'd add "sometimes" or "often" to both points to remove the exaggeration and make this look professional, but I don't know which one of these two TEF would support. --◄mendel► 11:07, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
 * When I miss other people's points ("primary concerns"), it is my fault ("derail", "stifle").
 * When other people miss my points, it is my fault ("behaviour").