Talk:Master of the North

maybe this is just like protector titles? Suicidal Romance X 21:19, 24 August 2007 (CDT)

Or Possibly Like Vanquisher?Jay Mcgrath 21:44, 24 August 2007 (CDT)

I've been getting 5 mastery points every time I complete a subsection of the main quest. I had 5 before I helped Jora clear her homestead, then 10 afterwards. --66.245.217.210 23:52, 24 August 2007 (CDT)

mine jumped from 15 to 25 after i reached R3 Norn.......maybe a bunch of things apply to it...such as GW:EN completion rate, gain points as u finish more GW:EN related stuff...dunno how to sign sry....


 * four ~ characters in a row Xantalas 14:37, 25 August 2007 (CDT)

I think I got 5 points for the first completion of each the above ground "mission" quests (the ones that have flag-shaped map markers like Curse of the Nornbear) and 10 points for completing Sepulchre of Dragrimmar (not sure if it was the quest or the dungeon itself, or if the two are linked). Anyone want to confirm this? --Lavos 15:57, 25 August 2007 (CDT)

You get 5 points for clearing a primary quest dungeon.

You get 10 points if you clear an optional dungeon like Frostmaw's Burrow or Raven's Point.

As far as I know during the Sneek Peak Weekend you can get 5 points each for the 3 primary quest "tasks" (Curse of the Nornbear, Blood Washes Blood, A Gate Too Far) and you get 10 points each for the 3 dungeons (Frostmaw's Burrows, Sepulchre of Dragrimmar, Raven's Point), resulting in a possible maximum of 45 points. Of course I might be missing something... T.T.H. 16:45, 25 August 2007 (CDT)
 * That's right, except there are 4 dungeons, you're missing Darkrime Delves. I've done the 3 quests 1 time each and each dungeon once, and I'm at 55.24.186.207.198 23:17, 26 August 2007 (CDT)

Ive just had a look, and ive currently got 55 points. Ive completed all missions and all dungeons (as well as repeating one dungeon) and i have R5 Norn and R3 Dwarf

That would be because there are 4 dungeons, not 3, resulting in a max of 55 points currently --Random man


 * It must be 5 per Mission and 10 per Dungeon because I got 55 points and ive beaten 4 dungeons and 3 Missions..'


 * This title appears to be a combination Vanquisher, Protector, Guardian and Cartographer title, to balance the four maxable reputation titles, meaning that you get five titles in EoTN, like any other campaign.

Prophecies/Factions: Cartographer, Vanquisher, Elite Skill Hunter, Protector, Guardian. EoTN: Legendary Master, Norn, Asura, Ebon, Dwarven. Falcifer Veneficus 14:39, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

good title

Repetition?
I'm assuming, based on player input so far, but I'm not sure...do you only get points toward this the first time through a dungeon/quest, or each time?24.186.207.198 23:21, 26 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Once. It's marked as complete on your map once you've completed a dungeon/mini-mission. --Kale Ironfist 23:45, 26 August 2007 (CDT)

More points?
well i thought i had 55 when GW:EN ended but now i have 88, i dont know what i did to get those points, it might be because im doing all the bonus missions i skiped in prop? 76.166.150.206 05:10, 30 August 2007 (CDT)AkaZero Yea, I now have 95 points. I have rank 5 Norn and rank 3 Deldrimor, maybe you get 5 points per rank in GWEN title tracks? Though that wouldn't fit with your 88... Puzzling. Showb1z 07:48, 30 August 2007 (CDT)
 * It's possible that they added points for doing quests. Or for Cartographing (since it looks like GEN won't have a Cartographer Title. I did every quest except the one with Destroyer Cores, mapped everything, and have R4 Norn and R2 Dwarf. I have now 95 Points. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 09:15, 30 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I also mapped everything, and did every quest except that one, could be extra points for mapping and/or master difficulty quests i guess. Showb1z 09:33, 30 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I have 84 now, done every dungeon, missed some of the quests, r4 norn and r2 deldrimor. [[Image:Melandru's Shot.jpg|19px]]Enigma 13:35, 30 August 2007 (CDT)
 * yeah im r3 norn r2 dwarf, but i maaped alot and did alot of quest Akazero 16:55, 30 August 2007 (CDT)AkaZero
 * I had 55 points at the end of the weekend (did all quests + dungeons), I'm r7 Norn and r2 Dwarf and have 90 points now. Not sure if those factor in, but I figured more data here wouldn't hurt. Xylex Darkreaver 22:19, 30 August 2007 (CDT)
 * It's exploration that gives the extra points. Far Shiverpeaks counted for 40 points apparantly.
 * Seems like a way to avoid a new cartographer, guardian etc. title track and therefore the need to reset the legendary [...] titles. It's fine I guess although 'God walking among mere mortals' might be harder to reach. --85.16.0.187 06:20, 31 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Sitting at 265 points right now. 3 more dungeons left and a little exploring. Doesnt seem like max could be too high unless you get the points again for completing the dungeons a second time. As of now it seems 350 is about all you could reach. Gandorf
 * I can confirm you don't get any more points after completing a dungeon more than once. I was expecting to see 350 already listed as max on this page...but we'll find out soon enough. &mdash;Vendetta411 20:25, 1 September 2007 (CDT)

Tally It up
Only a guess so far, but makes some kind of sense, there's 20 spots in the handbook, and well 10 sounds like a nice number for quests :)


 * 18 Dungeons
 * 180 Points
 * 16 Primary Quests
 * 80 Points
 * Exploration of the north
 * ~90 Points
 * }
 * ~90 Points
 * }

calculation
actually it would be 18 dungeons, 16 main quests, and map if u add up the dungeon points witch is 180(18*10) with the main quest points witch equal 80(16*5) it would be 260 not including the map points.
 * Ok, fixed the table, mabie with some touching up, it could be thrown into the page --Nela 17:01, 2 September 2007 (CDT)

hopefully this doesn't require u to spend a lot of time hugging walls to get all the points like the cartographer titles
 * Actually, I just happened to hug a certain wall and got one point from it. I can also confirm that you don't get points from vanquishing an area, neither from first world boss kills. I have Shards and Slavers' to go, and almost the complete map by now, yet it eludes me how I am supposed to get the rest from my 281 points up to 350. -- Yu 13:43, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Edit> Apparently, I am still missing more of the map than I thought. Scraping borders brought to my attention that I still have two large areas in the Asuran part which I didn't thoroughly map yet. But I am through with the northern territories, now at 285. The remaining areas might still yield some points, but I somewhat doubt that it will be 5 or more points. So, let that be 5, then we have: 160 right now from dungeons, 80 by quests and (maybe) 50 from mapping, with two dungeons left to run, would add up to 310. Where do I get the remaining 40 points from? -- Yu 16:14, 4 September 2007 (CDT)

Do you get points for every Dungeon? Because I don't think I got any points for the "joke" dungeons Fronis' Lair and the Snowmen Hideout... Showb1z 09:14, 3 September 2007 (CDT)

I expect that its 80 points for the 16 quests, 170 points for dungeons (not counting the Elite dungeon), and 100% for the mapping. gives a nice 350 without needing to do the elite. Elite missions didn't count in protector titles so i think its reasonable. Sadie2k 14:46, 3 September 2007 (CDT)

i don't think u get 100 points for exploring the map cuz i have done all the main quests and 13 of the dungeons and i have explored like 98% of the map and i only have 266 points and if subtract the 210 points i have gotten from the 13 dungeons and all the main quests that would mean 56 of the points i have is from the map and i know im not perfect but i know i haven't missed half the map so at most i would say at most u can get 60 points form the map.
 * By my calculations (assuming that the last 2 missions both give 5 points, and all the dungeons I don't have give 10, and I missed 1 point while exploring) you can get 365 points. yeah, I know that doesn't fit anywhere, but it's what I got... &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 18:04, 3 September 2007 (CDT)

What about bosses? I just noticed that my title went up 1 point, after I killed a boss. Not sure wether it was from exploring the tiny area, or killing the boss. Anyone care to check my theory? I'll continue clearing this area and keep track of my title now 88.197.163.126 06:35, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Killing a boss for the first time increases your title progression. [[Image:Monk-icon-small.png]]SilverFury[[Image:Monk-icon-small.png]] 06:42, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Just killed a Mesmer boss in Verdant Cascades (Wind Rider type, they all stand still on the bridge in the middle), my title bar did not receive any points.
 * Ok, I thought I got some points from killing a boss - but it was from exploring... maybe we get more points when maybe the Hard Mode is coming. [[Image:Monk-icon-small.png]]SilverFury[[Image:Monk-icon-small.png]] 07:57, 4 September 2007 (CDT)

Guess this theory could be scrapped, it's just exploring that counts. 88.197.163.126 07:05, 4 September 2007 (CDT)

Points for Exploration = 65
90 Points for exploration is way too much. I've made all quests and so far 8 dungeons and gained 213 points during the process. Having two legendary cartagrophers and having explored everything in GWEN I have to assume the missing parts contribute 2 points. Since Fronis Lair does not provide any MotN points exploration gives 213-80(pq)-70(dungeon)+2(assumed)= 65 points to the title.
 * I've done all primary quests and 7 Dungeons (1 less then you) and have 254 points. Assuming I'm missing 1 point from exploring, that makes 90. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 13:55, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
 * A mystery this is! I have found the missing spots thanks to a map that google provided helping me up to 215 points. It seems that a. some dungeons of mine have not been taken into account or b. there are other ways to get points.
 * Indeed! I have also finished all of the mission style quests, completed 8 dungeons, and explored almost everywhere and only have 212 points.  I can see getting up to 315 (10 more dungeons and 3 more cartography points).  How in the world did you get so many Poki?!
 * I have 289 points right now. 17 dungeons, all main quests and maybe 90% explored. I thought someone mentioned you get 1 point for the norn shrine guys you fight. also if a hard mode comes out which seems likely as you dont get bounty past level 8, then you may get more points towards this title for things done in hard mode. Gandorf
 * Sorry, But I didn't count the Dungeons I did in the preview ^^; 225 Points now (found the last nook and cranny ;]). 7 Dungeons +4 Norn dungeons, -Fronis Lair = 10 dungeons done by me. Thats 100 points. The primary Missions give 80 points? 225-100-80=45... Still not right :/ &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 16:54, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
 * No idea still, at 291, just got 2 more points in cartography. I can see myself getting maybe 4 more cartography points by looking at my map. That means I have 170 dungeon, 80 primary and 41 cartography with 4 more points poitns me at 45, same as you have Poki. Gandorf
 * Hypothesis of mine - 180 points for dungeons + 80 points for primary quests + 50 points for mapping + 40 points for max norn, dwarf, asura and vanguard titles. Would fit with what people have seen with mapping giving around 45 points, would also make sense of discrepancies people have seen between points for mapping, if they have lots of points in the other titles, will verify and post what I find when I advance my next title.  --Ozien
 * Just checked, advanced from Asura Level 3 to 4, did not get a point, stayed at 221 points. --Ozien

ok i think i found out were these extra points are coming from. after the sneek peak weekend ended and eye of north start a lot of people said they got some sort of random point bonus like my friend who had done none of the dungeon suddenly had more than me and i had explored all of the far shiver peaks and did all 4 dungeons and then suddenly my friend who had barely explored anyhting and done nonoe of the duneons suddenly had more than me so im thinking it might be cuz of that

I've got 266 points, did 13 dungeons, finished story and I'm pretty confident I've got the whole map. So 266 - 110 dungeons, - 80 quests = 76 cartography? Seems like a weird number. Showb1z 06:37, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm now at 296 with only Kathandrax and the elite dungeon to go. So assuming the 80 for primaries is correct i'm 99% sure the maximum for exploration is 76. Showb1z 17:59, 5 September 2007 (CDT)

I'm not sure I follow. For the cartography part of this title, does this mean scraping walls for explorable areas and outposts as with normal cartography? Does it also mean scraping walls in dungeons? (usually the areas that re-fog are not part of cartography). --Alphastream 16:54, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

New title track box for your userpage
See Template:Eye_of_the_North_mastery_title

max out of range?
Seeing as how the caculations add up to 350points(R3), and the max title is 750points(R6) how do we progress beyond R3?--Patch 18:51, 4 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Dont know who added that info but without proof we dont know what is after rank 3. Gandorf
 * Yes, it looks to me as if 315 points is about the max that one can get right now (170 from the dungeons, 80 for the missions, and 65 for cartography--or however it breaks down exactly). That puts rank 3 out of range by 35 points.
 * I doubt the title will max until HM comes out, but you never know. Giving more points for doing all in HM is not out of consideration. --Ozien
 * I have 302 points as of now, all 18 dungeons, all main quests and I cant see there being more then a few points in missing map on my screen. Gandorf
 * I have exactly 300 now. I scraped the borders of the areas, and I am missing Slavers'. That would make 310. Seems to me, 350 are not possible right now, unless you get points from somewhere else. -- Yu 08:06, 6 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm exactly there as well, all dungeons done except for Slaver's (beaten Thommis and Selvetarm levels though), all primary quests done, and explored everywhere (i'm Legendary GMC so i know i did)... only 300 points. The article says we can get to 315... if that's true, then Slaver's gives 15 points instead of 10 200.153.141.51 19:44, 8 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I have 305 and only Slaver's to do, so that's a no. You ether miraculously missed a primary mission, or are missing 5 exploration points. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 20:39, 8 September 2007 (CDT)


 * GMC doesn't count GW:EN... --84.24.206.123 11:21, 9 September 2007 (CDT)

he was merely pointing out that he is experienced in cartography not that GMC gives points towards this title track. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.84.136.98 (contribs).

Any real use?
Title as the title, but does it have any real practical use like the Norn/Asura/Deldrimor/Ebon titles? --Cosmitz 23:00, 4 September 2007 (CDT)

the same amount of use as cartograpy and protecter guardian

Keeping track of quest and dungeon points

 * 1) Because they are completed simultaneously and the reward is received automatically, the three travel unlock quests cannot be isolated from The Beginning of the End.
 * 2) Listed as Oola's Laboratory in the Hero's Handbook.
 * 3) Listed as Ooze Den in the Master Dungeon Guide.
 * 4) This dungeon has since been updated to provide 10 points.

Here's a table to keep track of which quests and dungeons give points, and how many points each quest or dungeon gives. Quests which show up in the Hero's Handbook are marked in bold. -- Gordon Ecker 16:04, 5 September 2007 (CDT)


 * I checked after every dungeon except Snowmen, Fronis and Heart of Shiverpeaks and got 10 for each one. Gandorf
 * Snowman lair doesn't give mastery points.--[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 19:34, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Did anyone bother to check whether they had gotten points for completing Glynt's Challenge for the first time? It spawns a "dungeon"-chest, too. -- Yu 04:10, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
 * You don't. Showb1z 06:17, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Did you actually check for it or is this some sort of it-has-to-be? -- Yu 07:36, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * People, including myself, would have noticed. Showb1z 04:22, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm certain I did not ask whether people checked for your statement, but you yourself. If you did not check, then it is speculation. And speculation without proof is pointless. -- Yu 07:33, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

Current max is 316, stop editing it...


316 max, 101 for cartography, stop reverting it every time... Showb1z 19:50, 9 September 2007 (CDT
 * Why the heck does Anet keep doing this!? Release a title which we have no way to be able to max! It's the Sunspear Promo Point fiasco all over again!! Guess we're just going to have to wait another ~6 months before cen finish this one. :| --Wolfie [[Image:Wolfie_sig.jpg|19px]] (talk|contribs) 20:48, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Sunspear title actually does something. This is totally useless. It just shows that you have "beat" EotN. I mean, I guess if you care about the Protector and Guardian title tracks, then this would annoy you. But come on...unless it has a skill or other effect linked to it, I am not complaining yet. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 20:51, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
 * people like to look "impressive" with big titles the fact that ithas no benifit is why not any people will go for maxing this over dwarf and why the people that will max this want to (its rare therefore "cool").
 * if all titles did something, GW would become WoW-esque (a.k.a. grind) &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Skakid9090 (contribs). 21:59, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
 * You mean GW isn't grind already? News to me >.> [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 22:03, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
 * touche &mdash;The preceding awesome-sauce comment was added by Skakid9090 (contribs). 18:43, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * No, it isn't really. Yes, if you want all the nice titles you have to grind. But you can also just screw all that and sit back and enjoy the game quietly. In WoW, you can't really enjoy the game until AFTER hours upon hours of grinding.24.186.207.198 15:40, 19 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Floating max now at 320? I have successfully completed Legendary Cartographer and am no stranger to wall hugging.  I think its time for the people who have squeezed out 5(?) extra points to please reveal the secret.  In particular when compared to the map found here:(warning 11mb)http://tcfish.teutonictemplar.com/map/gwen_map.jpg  (The author has noted he hasn't actually explored this) The spine area between Grothmar Wardowns and Dalada Uplands does not seem possible to completely reveal nor does the waterfall section in between Riven Earth and Arbor Bay.  Once again if you know the secret please share.
 * That map isn't "explored". It's just a map with disabled fog from pre-pre-release. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 11:12, 24 September 2007 (CDT)
 * My concern was really the reverts here between 316/320 as the max but I appreciate the map info. After checking the discussion page over at the official wiki I can see that the 101st point is redundant and obtained through essentially multiple quest bugs.  The main title page really should indicate that the reasonable maximum for cartography is in fact 100 points with the extra point a redundant holdover (so you don't have to get every single nook and cranny) much like the other cart titles.
 * Yeah, I also think the 101's point is a bit bugged :P That's why I leave my character at 100. Thought I regret that I can't map the big fossil something-or-other in the Charr homelands, just like I ave a hole in the mountains of Shing Jea island... &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 15:46, 24 September 2007 (CDT)

I have 322 points and I am missing Kathandrax, so 316 is not max, 15:32, 02 October 2007 (PDT)
 * Well, they just changed it so that Secret Lair of the Snowmen and some other dungeon now count towards the title, so I'm not surprised that you can go over 316 now.--[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 22:34, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

remaining points
is it possibe the last of the points could be gained from completeing each monument in hall of monuments by complete i mean max koabd title all destroyer weps 4 heroes with upgraded armor lvl 20 pet all mini pets (or most aloud) etc?.
 * The time/resources involved in maxing all Monuments, especially with the Destroyer weapons and all r9+ titles included so far would be way too involved. I doubt Anet would put an expansion title track that would require such lengths to max out. Henry of Navarre.
 * Maybe you can get the missing points by maxing other title tracks. THis way you really have to do anything in GWEN to be "Master of the north"
 * The remaining points will be earned in hard mode. Whenever that will be... Showb1z 07:54, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Has anyone tried exploring the dungeons in order to get points? 145.94.74.23 02:41, 12 September 2007 (CDT)
 * People, including myself, would have noticed if we had recieved MotN points whilst running around dungeons I expect. -arual 12:17, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

More points in last update
I went from 316 to 336. I'm guessing 20 points got added for Snowmen and Fronis? Showb1z 00:11, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Nope, it's from doing the mini-mission from the Encrypted Charr Battle Plans. - Some guy &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.110.20.134 (contribs).

Er.. I think your still wrong Some guy. My points jumped like everyone else and I have not done the Encrypted Char Battle Plans quests. Have a feeling Showb1z is right about the jump about it being for those two dungeons 152.8.182.110 01:21, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

To see for myself, I just did Fronis' dungeon with my Rit. Yup, it turns out that I got 10 mastery points for it. So it is that the 2 "joke" dungeons are not worth something after all. I thought maybe those mini-missions would be worth doing =/. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.110.20.134 (contribs).

Someones claiming you can get 351 points through the special ops missions, yet fails to come up with the 4th rank, and at the special ops page people are saying you don't get points for it... Reverting. Showb1z 11:34, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I just tried doing Irontoe to get the Master of the North points, but didn't get any. I had already done it in preview weekend and repeated a few times. I even tried with a new dungeon book and still no more points.--Cherno 01:55, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
 * You already got them when the update went live. They were added retro-actively.213.119.59.106 08:15, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

any1 knows when hard mode is released?
no title from GWEN is maxable yet... its been more then a month sense the realease of GWEN and it got a bit boring after finishing all quests, missions and dungeons. is it possible that hard mode will be released only AFTER the bonus mission pack?(Ts healer 11:24, 2 October 2007 (UTC))
 * anything is possible --SLeeVe 11:36, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Could be a while considering they have to make some dramatic adjustments and can't just throw the standard +2-4 levels 33-50% HCT/HSR/IAS/Movement formula on mobs who are already geared towards level 20 players. My guess is November at the earliest and I would be shocked and disappointed if they couldn't produce the content for 18 dungeons and 15 explorable areas by Thanksgiving.


 * Ofcourse they can. Ever heard of UW? Lol, few 100 dmg a hit from an Aatxe, gg. Or worse: Smites --[[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (s)talkpage 18:34, 4 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The UW is acknowledged elite content, its not even close to the scale of what HM could potentially bring here with mobs having triple professions (read: Malfunctioning Golem, Summit Dreamer) or 2 elite skills or speced 20 attributes. The Aataxe at least doesn't have to bend the very rules of GW to hit hard and FYI if a gimmicky monk or necro can solo them with relative ease...its not challenging.

notice : 335 max + 1 for bug using ?
Hi, actually i have 315 points (missing Orr and Elite dungeons), already has re-cleared most of the area but 3, so still a little chance one point is still missing with one of those 3 area i've already cleaned... But me and a friend noticed something... i got all of my gwen faction title rank5 (or more) but not the Norn one... and have 1 point missing, and my friend got 2 of them rank 4... and have 2 points missing... and for both just a few Asura area to clean again... A rank in those titles doesn't give a point... but does anyone test for the rank 5 that provide armor npc ? i'm gonna try tomorrow to confirm/unconfirm that... to totally confirm i should get my last 3.800 non points with books... but don't have any Galimka 20:41, 3 October 2007 (UTC) (forgotten to tell that when i had my 315th points... i've reached rank5 ebon in the same "10 minutes" that's why i ask and gonna test tomorrow... )Galimka 20:46, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * the extra point for cartography is due to multiple quest bugs and a mapping redundancy used in all GW content so you don't have to get every single nook and cranny, you can read all about it here
 * Thanks for the link... so no need to test and no need to explore anymore... Should it be noticed on the main page that 335 is normal maximum, the 1 more point is with "bug" using ? Galimka 23:55, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I already made that suggestion once and it was largely ignored...the edit is worth a shot anyways. I would do it myself but I already got into trouble once for a revert war.
 * Looking at the link, none of the quests appear to be repeatable, so if you have already completed them and sitting on 315, does that mean im back to edging again and hope I stumble across the elusive 1 point?
 * I was the first to put 316 as max here and on offical, and I didn't use any of those quest "exploits", so in fact the page is wrong. But that one extra point won't matter to obtain max rank, so I wouldn't bother. Showb1z 01:38, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

the rest of the points are for doing the quests and dungeons in hard mode!?!
if you look from any tyrian outpost (I saw it from lions arch) on the GWEN map you will see that the dungeons and primary quests you already done are in their undone picture-and a bit more red. what makes me believe that the title would be at list one more tier above the 350 points. and wonder how the hell am I (or anybody) supposed to do all this tough, 1.5-2 hours dungeions in hard mode. also we can see the similarity to the protector/guardian titles in the other campaigns. what makes me also guess the even more points will come from vanquishing the explorable areas. anyway for those who want to max the title (like me) anet makes sure we will have some hard time doin it.Ts healer 13:31, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Lol. 1.5-2 hours? are you KIDDING ME? 2 hours is a decent completion time for doing the entire Slaver's Exile Dungeon. sure. The rest? 30-45 mins tops. Maaaybe 1 hour for frostmaw, it is 5 levels after all. I'm pretty damn sure i'll have no trouble at all doing everyth in HM. Perhaps you need better teams/builds? :) NightAngel 13:55, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I think the OPs point was ANET is moving away from casual gamers and pandering towards Southeast Asia more and more with Guild Wars content. Not everyone wants to dedicate huge blocks of time to completing what should be attainable goals in casual gameplay. Its a valid complaint and one I agree with.
 * Hard mode and titles weren't designed for casual gamers. Chu [[Image:Chuiu Me Icon.png|Chuiu]] 19:31, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I would agree with you, since I have all the HM titles, except none of these new titles are solely HM based whereas Guardian/Vanquisher you knew what you were getting going in. The titles in the expansion should be attainable through casual gameplay but since thats not the direction ANET has chosen ala Korean-grind-fest there is no other option left but to slug it out through more repetitive content in GW:EN HM.  I just hope they are taking this time to seriously consider balance issues that are bound to come up.


 * I've been seriously working on titles for a few months now. I'm maxing treasure, wisdom, vanquishing, etc etc, and of course it's hard work. IT SHOULD BE. Nobody needs titles. They're supposed to be hard. They even cater to the noobs by making very hard titles like Luxon/Kurzick not matter so much - look at the skill sand you'll see progression is usually very flat - you don't need a high rank to use them. You want master of the north? Work for it. Complaining is silly - the harder it is, the more "prestige" they grant you- whatever that is worth. NightAngel 21:05, 4 October 2007 (UTC)


 * FWIW Kurz/Luxon never mattered and never will. You can't ram PvP down PvE players throats watch it backfire and then attempt to link in lackluster skills a year late and expect a dramatic turn around in usage.  Nevertheless I see your point, you and I simply don't agree and I am fine with that.  Good luck with your titles, Vanquisher truly is deserving of its prestigious status.


 * What's pvp? I got my luxon title doin pve lol. And as for usefulness, I use Save Yourselves frequently and I'm very happy with it, same goes for Spear of Fury. As for Vquisher, that's one of the really easy ones. I enjoy doing it too. Now, Grandmaster treasure hunter, or max lucky/unlucky... now those are hard. :) course. all any title takes in gw is time, but i think 10 thousand chests is a pretty damn long time. Pvp titles are insane. I briefly considered maxing luxon, only it took me 1.5 months to get level 7. i'd need the better part of a year to max it at that rate. utterly insane. NightAngel 06:01, 5 October 2007 (UTC)


 * the grandmaster treasure hunter and lucky/unlucky titles aren't very hard to max-as long as got the money. that together with wisdon, drunk (mostly money and some time too but no skill really) and sweet tooth are pretty easy when u got enough money for them. i.e: if u buy a key at 600g then 10000 chest are 6000k! even most people with lots of skill don't have this kind of money. and thats only 1 title... sweet tooth is 1000k-1200k and so on... I think that vanquisher,guardian and the luxon/kurzick are the hard MAXABLE titles.(Ts healer 11:57, 5 October 2007 (UTC))
 * NA, if you think Vanquisher is an easy title you obviously don't have it. As someone who does here I can vouch that it will take at least 2 months of nonstop work to accomplish if you don't "cheat" and use DP items.  Its not something you can just slug through with any crap builds either...it takes a combination of deep understanding of PvE areas and what you will face along with how to properly coordinate your own bar as well as your teams.  Just in case you ran the "vanquishing dervishes" for the easy win keep in mind thats really against the spirit of it...its intended as an elite PvE title and a learning tool not a gimmick proving ground.  Wisdom/treasure or lucky/unlucky even FFF require WoW scale grinding and not a single ounce of skill to accomplish once you understand the setup you will be repeating ad nausuem for months on end...its not even in the same league as the HM titles.
 * Actually it's pretty goddamn easy, I'll tell you that, even without DP-removing items. I've been playing since the start, but I just play what I enjoy rather than what's min/maxed to be UBERCORE HARDPOWER MAXSLAMMING against creatures, hell, I barely even customize it for areas besides stripping out Apply Poison for areas with few/no fleshy enemies. So far I've yet to find an area that I couldn't power through just with myself, three heroes and four henches. Dear Lord, add in another player so I can drop the henches and I've never even DIED in those. I mean, sure, it's a bit of a challenge, it requires a bit more of a Serious Business attitude towards the game, but it takes more time than it takes skill.PurpleXVI 15:23, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Lol, i'm a few areas away from legendary vanquisher and i have no clue what you're talkin about on dp items. I never needed to use any - I can count the total wipes (as in the entire party dies) on all 3 continents on the fingers of my hands - and i'm not a freak :) and failing a vanquish would be incredibly noobish. I think i'd just hang myself in shame. Dear lord, dying more than once to anyth just makes me shudder with disgust :). And dervishes? eeww. I'd never take one on my vanquishes if i can avoid it. Heck, if i want a scythe wielder, i'll take Zenmai, thank you very much :) And yeah. Vanquish IS easy. Very easy. NightAngel 14:55, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you forgot one of these "/sarcasm". Besides I've shown mine for all to see, prove you aren't a bag of hot air and lets see yours...plenty of free photo hosting sites out there you can upload and link to.

I'm hot, but not made of air. And i'm done wasting time here. Btw, no way of knowing that screen is yours anyway. :) NightAngel 18:48, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Meh, I haven't seen a single title that is difficult to get. Most of them can be summed up as mindless time/money grinds.  Vanquisher being a time grind since Hard Mode isn't that hard. Chu [[Image:Chuiu Me Icon.png|Chuiu]] 02:02, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Points in HM
Finally HM is released and the titles move on. Done Fronis a few minutes ago and got 20 points for it. It seems Dungeons give twice as much in HM than in NM. The question now is how much VQ and PQs are worth.


 * Vanquished Ice Cliffs and got 15 Points for it.
 * Vanquishing 15, PQ's 10, Dungeons 20. Showb1z 21:55, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * So I'm thinking 336 + 15*15 + 11*10 + 18*20 = 1031? Seems a little odd.

+1 extra point?


! rowspan="2" | Accomplishment !! colspan="2" | Points Earned !! rowspan="2" | # of quests/areas !! rowspan="2" | NM + HM = !! rowspan="2" | Total points !Normal || Hard ! align="center" | 165 ! align="center" | 540 ! align="center" | 225 ! align="center" | 101 ! Grand Total ! 1031
 * Primary quests1
 * align="center" | 5
 * align="center" | 10
 * align="center" | 11
 * align="center" | 55 + 110 =
 * align="center" | 55 + 110 =
 * Dungeon quests2
 * align="center" | 10
 * align="center" | 20
 * align="center" | 18
 * align="center" | 180 + 360 =
 * align="center" | 180 + 360 =
 * Vanquishing
 * align="center" | N/A
 * align="center" | 15
 * align="center" | 15
 * align="center" | 0 + 225 =
 * align="center" | 0 + 225 =
 * Cartography3
 * align="center" colspan="2" | 101
 * align="center" colspan="2" | N/A
 * align="center" colspan="2" | N/A
 * colspan="4" |
 * }

Where does this extra point come from and is there any evidence of it?? I can understand calculating the dungeons and the main quests and vanquishing..... and there is 101 points left unaccounted for (cartography) but a "bonus" point? It sounds sorta fishy to me... Who is to say there isn't a total of 1035 or 1040...? and whoever had the points did not get all the cartography points? I'm just curious if anybody else thinks this is odd... The Black Leach 11:20, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Someone somewhere would have noticed if the cartography max would be 105 or even 110, not 100+1. It's practically impossible that the whole of the GW community would have missed 5% or even more of the EotN maps. Besides, a cartography max of 100 nicely mirrors the usual 100% measure. And the extra point to go to 101 is just there so you don't have to explore every last bit of the map, like on all other continents as well. --[[Image:Roland_icon.png]]Roland of Gilead (talk) 14:50, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Roland's got it - through the entire GW forum community, no one had more than 336 points before HM was released last night. That alone is enough evidence for me.  Besides, why the heck would they make cartography (something that's always been measured in percentages before, with a max of 100%) have a total of anything other than 100 points?  It doesn't make any sense at all.  It's much more likely that they either didn't know that 101 points could show up due to the "leeway", or they knew but didn't bother coding a fix to it.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:36, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Thats perfectly acceptable, however, Not every person playing GW submitted an answer with 336 points prior to HM... Just whoever submitted submitted 336... I know I myself have achieved well over 100% in Tyria due to the exploiting corpses ability of Necromancers. I'm not saying anyone is incorrect or that anything should be changed... but as of date 101 is the current number that everyone agrees on. and I'm just trying to get a solid number to see if i can beat it :-P Also... you say that it is practically impossible that the entire community could miss a percentage... or everyone had 336... according to what tho? the wiki? I myself added an entire portion to the Grandmaster cartography guide and The Wilds mission where I used a series of nature rituals and timing to get out of the map and get more points that I'm almost certain I was the first to do. The Black Leach 22:02, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what you're asking. If nobody found and submitted more than 101 cartography points, then 101 is what we assume to be the maximum, until you or anyone else can credibly provide a higher number. It's really that simple. If you are looking for rock-solid proof, then only the folks at ANet can provide that. Until that happens, if ever, 101 points remains the maximum and the number to beat. --[[Image:Roland_icon.png]]Roland of Gilead (talk) 21:33, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Did you even read my last post? (Trying not to reiterate...) I stated that nothing should be changed or nothing is incorrect and that 336 points (before HM) is the number I should be trying to beat... I don't understand how much clearer you want me to be about that. I also stated that I had made a unique discovery and I am fairly certain that I changed the total (for tyria). I'm not looking for any "proof" I simply wanted to clarify if the data in the table reflected current statistics (I was skeptical that the current total points were 101 originally) in order to see if there were any locations where I could "cheat" and get more points. And if this still does not clear things up... I'm not sure what else to say.The Black Leach 00:59, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Rank 5 req... proof?
An anon just added a line for Rank 5 to the table, Master of the North - 750 points. That means the difference between 4-5 is 200 points, which is exactly the same as the difference between 3-4. All other titles have increasing differences between the ranks, so this doesn't really make sense. Could someone post a screenshot showing this requirement? I'm removing the line from the article until then. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 23:43, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * First, Assume good faith. Second, there are titles that have equal distances between ranks, specifically Faction Allegiance and Cartographer. --[[Image:Roland_icon.png]]Roland of Gilead (talk) 22:16, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I just got r4 on my main char. its indeed right. I put back into table. 72.11.116.63 00:53, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Here is your proof buddy...from your friendly local anon. 24.30.47.200 04:41, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * And there's probably a R6 - Grandmaster of the North (if not even a R6 - Legendary (Grand)Master of the North) &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 09:36, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

haha... this title is pretty unique now that you think about it.... its cartography, guardian, protector, vanquisher and a little bit more all in one title... special standards for special titles? The Black Leach 10:30, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well I guess it's better than breaking it down into 4 or so different titles --Blue.rellik 05:07, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Here's the proof for the newly added R6: http://www.semyazas.de/motn.jpg
 * Must be ~30 point leeway on this title. The numbers alone total over 1000 and the name on this title would certainly seem to indicate its a maximum rank...


 * Since there's more leeway than just the 1 cartography point, we may as well add that point into the table for a total of 1031 possible points. And I agree, I don't see there being another level of the title just to cover those 31 points.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:31, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * That's awesome. The last thing I want to do again after getting Grand Master Tyrian Caertographer is to scrape again, that means I can make up for it by doing quests and dungeons. Top stuff --Blue.rellik 02:13, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Final rank confirmation
Just finished this evening (1 dungeon to go), here's the proof for max rank along with rollover I assume to 1031 but we shall see. 24.30.47.200 01:51, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think it will reroll to 1030(espicially not 1031 because thats an exploit) because they have probably noticed that theres more ponts then needed to max and they made it like this. Maybe becuase its a real hard title to get(so gz) doin all quests and dungeions in both NM and HM and vanquishing in HM and exploring they made it like this. Ts healer 22:35, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Breaking down the leeway admitted
So, there are 31 points that you can get, but you don't need. What can you choose NOT to do? Here's how I see it: (this is all assuming you do everything else not mentioned in each item) It's up to you to decide which way you want to go in order to make the attaining of this title a little easier.--Yavanna 00:43, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
 * You can explore only 70% of the map
 * You can choose not to vanquish two areas.
 * You can choose to forego 3 primary quests in Hard Mode
 * You can ommit one dungeon in both normal and hard mode (possibly Slavers' Exile for most)

+ If you have the bug which prevents you from repeating Destruction's Depths and A Time For Heroes, this leeway still allows you to get the title. Which is good news for me.
 * Actually, it's not difficult to get a group for any part of Slavers (st least right now), so I would advise people to skip Shards or Kathandrax. SarielV 05:34, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Of course you can use it for other purposes (as mentioned above), but the most logical answer to the +31 riddle is
 * (as mentioned before) the cartography margin (like all other exploration titles, you have a small margin over 100%, giving you 101 instead of 100 points, because this title is not measured in percentages)
 * the elite dungeon Slaver's Exile, making it possible to "beat" EotN without being forced to complete the elite "addition", just like you can beat the campaigns without the elite additions (e.g. the Domain of Anguish elite domain or the elite mission Urgoz's Warren)

Allegiance titles
If you max this title, how far will you be (on average) with the 4 allegiance titles? Looks to me like you'll instantly have those maxed as well, maybe with the exception of dwarven, if you play smart (kill bosses at the right time etc.), which would make this title count for five and boost you up 1 KoaBD rank Apekooi 12:36, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

No, you definately won't be. But it's a good start.

Help

 * Anyways to get this maxed with a guide or something? scythefromunder

Primary Quests Hard Mode
Assuming you haven't finished GW:EN yet, and you accomplish all primary quests in order to finish it, you virtually "lose" 55 points for the title. Thus, you can't reach max title, unless you're able to do those quests again, but in hard mode, which I believe won't be possible. Can anyone save me from my "OMG-ANet-sucks-so-much-I-won't-get-that-title" worry or is there a way to redo those quests and earn the missing points? -- Fexghadi 01:32, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * What? HM and NM are independent when it comes to completing things, and you can't play HM if you didn't finish the game, so everything breaks apart in the first 6 words of your sentence. GWEN's "Primary quests" are the equivalent of "Missions" in the campaigns, and thus are repeatable. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 12:24, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, maybe you didn't understand everything I wrote, but you answered my question, thanks :) -- Fexghadi 19:11, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Bug notice added by anon
umm... what? What areas look like their completed, but really are not? &mdash; Poki#3, 05:59, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I *think* he meant that when you enter a mission, you see that gold icon in the corner, even if you've never beat it. Correct me if I'm wrong. --Macros 06:06, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
 * No idea. I was about to RV that but then I got sidetracked.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]]Entrea  [T]  06:07, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Of so, then it's just because there are no VANQUISHING goals to complete. You get a gold icon in every place that can't or doesn't need to be vanquished, but you're in Hard Mode. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 06:14, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Slavers' Exile HM
For Slavers' Exile, you get HM book credit if you do first three parts in NM, then Duncan the Black (Dungeon) in HM (see talk - Hard Mode). If your going for MotN title, does doing the first three in HM give you credit? --Mooseyfate 19:29, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
 * You get completion credit for the dungeon based on the mode you defeated Duncan in. The mode when you kill the four (not three) other bosses doesn't matter. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 21:07, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The chart on the article page sums up that each dungeon is worth 10/20 (NM/HM) points (guess I didn't understand that earlier).  Slaver's Exile counts as one dungeon with completion status only mattering for Duncan.  There is no extra credit for it being many partial dungeons.  To back this up, I just played through one of the first three on NM with someone who had never played through any, and his title did did not go up any.  --Mooseyfate 20:55, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
 * It certainly seems you should get more credit, even given the trick of doing the first 3 dungeons in normal mode! Perhaps 15/30 points instead of only 10/20.  GW-Susan 05:04, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

The points stated are incorrect
I currently have 853 points on the title track. I have completed all of the dungeons in both NM and HM. I have completed all of the (repeatable) quests in both NM and HM. I have vanquished three areas. Hence, according to the information stated in this article, I have obtained 165 points for the quests, 540 points for the dungeons, and 45 points for the three vanquished areas, for a total of 750 points accounted. The remaining points must be for cartography. The problem is that there are a total of 103 points remaining (my current points of 853 minus the accountable 750). Since it is stated here that 101 points are the maximum for cartography, I would seem to have an extra 2 points... Added to which, I have not completely mapped the various GWEN areas. I definately still have "undiscovered country" in Sparkfly Swamp, Sacnoth Valley, Grothmar Wardowns, Riven Earth, and Arcadia Tangle. The other areas have been - more or less - scraped. Hence, either the points for cartography given here are incorrect, or I have aquired some as yet undocumented points along the way. I have maxed the Deldrimor, Norn, and Asura titles. Could that give points? I have also completed and turned in 3 additional Heroes Handbooks in HM. Might they give points? Anybody else have any ideas? Utter Havoc 21:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Blame Cartography's imprecise nature, you probably can gain more points by scraping everything than is listed.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]]Entrea  [Talk]  21:37, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
 * That's what I suspect too. If nobody comes up with other possibilities, I'm going to scrape all of the remaining areas, and then update the article accordingly.Utter Havoc 21:47, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I have all EotN areas completely scraped (and Legendary GMC without using TexMod, so I know what I'm doing), and I only have 100 cartography points. 285 points total - 45 (9 normal mode quests) - 140 (14 normal mode dungeons) = 100.  Before Hard Mode was released, no one had more than 336 points, which figured out to 101 cartographer points.  I'd say your extra points mean that there's something else undocumented (possible getting R10 Norn/etc.), not that there are more cartographer points.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 22:08, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I would first recommend that you vanquish every area and show a screen with 1033 points... And titles and handbooks don't give points, I'm sure. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 22:11, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
 * That will take awhile, since I can't play that much right now, but I'll do that. This is side-lining the problem though.  I still have more points now then what is stated here will allow.  I'm willing to vanquish and screenshot as proof, but it doesn't address the question now, and after I have maxed the points - whatever that max may be, I can no longer investigate where the additional points are coming from... Utter Havoc 22:22, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, I thing you miscounted something. Maybe you vanquished 4 areas, or something... &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 23:39, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Nope. Checked and double checked. I am going to figure it out though... Utter Havoc 23:46, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I've now vanquished and scraped (and rescraped) the whole of EoTN, obtained my Legendary Title, and have exactly 1031 points. So the points are right after all. Sorry everyone, I guess I was just talking out of my backside (which at least allows me to whistle while I talk - don't try that the other way around...) Havoc   (Talk|Contribs) 19:02, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * And the rest is history. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 20:27, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Tracking
Hi, is it any possible to trak mroe specifically progress in this one? E.G. I dont't exactly remember what I have done already in hm or not. Thanks --  Zeratul (T 07:17, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Look at the M Map. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 16:23, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes i know but i dont know if there are already those 5 primary quests that you get instantly to your handbook. In hardmode it should yield 50 points so i wonder if they are alredy there. -- Zeratul (T 14:09, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * All the missions that give points are on the map. 3 from each race, + 2 final missions IIRC. The primary quests don't count. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 14:33, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks and sorry i didn't realize article says number of quests 11 instead of 16. My apologies. -- Zeratul (T 12:25, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Cartography
Lol, here I am again with a dumb question... Do you gain points by cartography? Just by exploring all the maps gives you points? I never noticed... (I didn't really paid attention before I gained rank 3 in this title) --Jorre22225 16:01, February 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * "Cartography 	 Varies 	 15 	 101 	 101"
 * Yes; 101 points. A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 16:53, February 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Basically, every percent of EotN you explore gives you 1 point. There's slightly more than 100% cartography for ALL campaigns, for obvious reasons, though, so there's a little bit more than 100 points. Like AFK said --Gimmethegepgun 21:53, February 21, 2010 (UTC)

Break Down of Points?
I wish there was a way to see the breakdown of the points on your character as to how many points you have in cartography, in vanquishing, etc. I have 998 Master of the North Points. The only thing I can tell is left is to vanquish on area in Alcazia Tangle. Just by looking at it I'd say it's already been edged. I will get 15 points for vanquishing that area. Theoretically I might get 1 point if I do a perfect edge, (I doubt I'll even get a point given past experience with this character). It'd be nice to know where the remaining points are at, seeing as there are a possible 1030 points. Just wish guild wars had a way to break it down. Side note: I have completed a players book in normal and hard mode (fully filled for both). I have completed a dungeon book in normal and in hard mode. Vanquished and edged all of the other areas in Eye of the North. Not that it's all that important i do this last area and i have the legendary title. Varuuth 04:41, 17 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Just going by your number of 998, it's obvious that you're missing at least 2 cartography points. If you had 100 carto points, then your total would end in either 0 or 5.  Assuming that you have done absolutely everything else and you only have 15 vanquishing points left, then you are missing 17 cartography points.  Although, if you've edged all other areas like you say you have, that seems like a lot.  Are you sure there's not another area you haven't vanquished?  There are 6 areas in the Far Shiverpeaks, 6 in the Tarnished Coast, and 3 in the Charr Homelands.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 14:43, 17 January 2011 (UTC)