GuildWiki talk:Builds wipe

Links
Just to make sure everyone knows what/where everything currently is: More info: -- Peej 20:29, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Builds wipe (this page) - policy describing deleting all builds so that a better replacement build system can be started
 * Post No Builds - aka PNB - policy which only serves to protect the Build namespace in the interim between the build wipe and the replacement system being put into place
 * For clarity, I've included what will be the new policy into the builds wipe article. PNB is no longer referenced in any form. &mdash;Tanaric 19:48, 29 March 2007 (CDT)
 * No Original Builds - aka NOB - policy describing a solution to the PvP build section which involves only posting popular and successful builds found by watching observer mode
 * Profession archetype guides - recently written policy describing a solution to the PvE build section which involves documenting the basic uses of each profession in a guide format, with links to true PvE builds in user space
 * Builds wipe does NOT mean that all build posting will be permanently removed from the wiki, just that the current system of build posting will be removed in order to put something better in its place
 * Post No Builds doesn't mean you can't post builds on the wiki, just that you can't post them in the Build namespace
 * Both NOB and Profession Guides suggest original builds and build variants can be placed in user space, where they will be categorized and (hopefully) easy to find using template tags, so creation of personal builds will still be allowed

Opinion Poll
The question is: "Are you in favor of Guild Wars:Builds Wipe?"

Voting "Yes" means you are in favor of GW:Builds wipe. Please vote only if you have an opinion, do not add a "Neutral" section. Please also add a comment if you have something constructive to say.

Note: This poll is about the wipe itself, not about the policies that might or might not be implemented after the wipe. Please bear that in mind when voting.

Favor:
 * 1) - Echo ftw 17:12, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 2) Thought about it a lot and I vote for reorganizing with interest in getting the section BACK anew. I support the Build Split policy.(Edit: I don't care about namespaces, I care about having a section) I am also of the opinion that user comments are very valuable to any build discussion pages be it negative or positive. Voting for builds is not important but the amount of discussion and comments a build arises is. --BooBoo 17:32, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 3) -Jinkas 17:41, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 4) As might be easy to notice, I favor the build wipe as it will give us a fresh start to implement a new policy. All builds will be backed up, so we wont be losing anything in the process. If the community so decides, it would even be possible to revert the builds section to it's original state, although I hope that wont happen. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 19:02, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 5) Gonna lose some LOLs, but I think I can live with that. --Thom Bangalter 19:15, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 6) Like Thom said, going to lose some massive LOLs, but I think I can live with that as well. Although the builds section in gwwiki is useful, it doesn't cause anyone to actually learn about the skills in the game and about skill synergy. Any person can come on, unlock the elite, buy the skills, then use the build without even knowing what they're doing. Although I love the builds section, deleting it will probably cause people to actually think about what they're doing in their own builds, and possibly *gasp* make their own damn builds.--LolEtc 19:23, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 7) I think Thom put it the best. --Theonemephisto 19:38, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 8) -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]]  19:39, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 9) Anyone who wants to save builds can save them. The builds section is not permanently gone, and even though there is strong critism (even by me) it is still the best way to go; nothing is perfect, and of course any build can be retrieved by admins if necessary. Those who think that losing the builds section will reduce the amount of visitors is correct, however, people who are GWiki "Read Only" users do not know well enough to search Unfavored builds as well when looking for ideas, etc, and usually stick to the favoured section. Our vetting process is flawed enough that many good builds are unfavoured and many bad builds are being favoured.-- Nova  [[Image:Neo-NovaSmall.jpg]] --  (contribs) 19:45, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 10) --Nog64Talk [[Image:Yaaaay.png|19px]] 20:33, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 11) Completely necessary. --Lania Elderfire[[Image:Pinkribbonsig.gif|My Talk]] 21:58, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 12) &mdash; [[Image:DE Sig Test 2.jpg|50x19px]]  *Defiant Elements*   +talk  22:22, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 13) Thelord23 00:34, 5 April 2007 (CDT)

Unfavor:
 * No, there should be a NOB Build section and an OB (Original Builds) section so people can have their cake and eat it too. A consensus will not be reached any other way, as both view points cannot have themselves established without violating the other. Therefore, two build sections should exist, and a build wipe should not take place. Isis In De Nile 17:47, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 1) - Wyvern 18:16, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 2) I'm against a total build wipe as it removes an essential and generally relied upon source of information to the general users. Despite the complaints and "problems" with this area according to some users, a total wipe is unnecessary and counterproductive since the proper builds/guides will have to be made all over again. Furthermore, you miss out on the history of the discussion pages if any and the variants (and the discussion of those variants) which may prove helpful. This isn't a vote on future policy so I'll leave it at this. PlacidBlueAlien 18:46, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Just a quick note: moving an article preserves it history, so we are able to back up everything without losing information. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 19:04, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Retort: Simply moving an article isn't the issue. Backing it up somewhere on someone's user space is also does not solve the underlying problem. It's still won't be widely available as it is now since this is a wipe which means to imply starting over again. If this policy was called "Transformation" instead of "Wipe" and reflected as such, I'd support it in the interim till a total new policy is hammered and agreed to. Not to mention, it kills off the section for awhile. PlacidBlueAlien 19:37, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 1) The section might not be perfect, but it give ideas to players who already understand the basics. Only having "popular builds" and basic guides will not give any benefit but to a small few players. — RabiesTurtle (contribs) 19:21, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 2) Complete and total waste of time IMO. If you're going to get rid of it and make it impossible to post builds, my make a new policy? Just scrap anything related to it. Adzma 20:28, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 3) --Grievous jedihunter 20:38, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 4) Build Wipe=Goodbye to guildwiki and welcome arenanet wiki, atleast for me, if they don't have the same ideology that is. At least don't wipe and ruin this before a future can be shaped out to apease the build comunity. Saving builds into user archives only causes a mess and wont solve a single problem, will ruin the current community and activeness in and out of builds. The current system is better then pissing off almost everyone in the build section. --Sefre  [[Image:Sefresig.jpg|15px|]] 21:30, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 5) The system is flawed, true, but that's not a reason to destroy the entire thing. The current system of US democracy isn't perfect either...should we eradicate it too? DKS01 22:22, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * 6) Completely idiotic. Unfortunately, most of the people who oppose (and some who support) this aren't going to post -- they're anonymous, and have a lack of faith that their opinion matters. Darkahn 00:16, 5 April 2007 (CDT)

Why Builds wipe needs to happen
Splitting this in two parts, because it's sort of long. Read either...or both... or neither and and just keep going with the stupid nonsense so many are posting around here. Your call.

Part 1: On wikis and laziness
I myself have tried to get more people aware of this by posting about Post No Builds in the Community Portal page. Barek has done the same, by posting a link to the poll by Tanaric which marked the beginning of Builds wipe. These policies has been brought up time after time in both build and user talk pages. The constant personal attacks from all directions going on in the builds section has been so intense as to be impossible to miss. The discussion on those policy pages has been going for months and months. Honestly, the only way to NOT see where this was going to end up is by simply not caring enough to even put 1 and 1 together. And that's what this is all about.

In the end it wasn't the Builds Wipe discussion that was "on display on the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard”. It was the community which was hiding in that lavatory with a sign on the door saying "Beware of the lack of interest in any kind of policy-making".

Mostly everyone seems to fail to understand that this is a wiki. If there's one place where you need to express your opinions and communicate with the rest of the users to try and make this place the best it can be, this is it. Unless in extreme cases (like this deletion), everything on the wiki is done by us editors; it's us that come up with policies, discuss them, adapt them, then reach a consensus on them and apply them. There is no "decision-making" board which does the decisions, it's us. You can choose to not take part in this, but only if, a) you don't care what will happen with the site at all, or b) there's someone you can trust to defend your interests as well. If neither a nor b applies to you, I don't think you have any place at all to complain.

Don't get all huffed up, take a deep breath, and try to wrap your head around this. The difference between us and Guru isn't simply that the wiki allows you to edit any page. The difference is in the fact that on Guru you simply have nothing to do with the rules and ideology behind that place. You are there just a visitor, period.

On a wiki you can be just a visitor, but only if you choose to be so. For those that are interested to shape how the entire wiki runs, they can do so. And many do. If you choose to not be one of these people, then what gives you the moral right to complain that this site isn't going where you'd want it to go? None of us is getting a dime out of this, none of us is getting any kind of gain of any kind out of this. So explain to me again, why would I feel morally obligated to look after the interests of Joe Whammo, when Mr.Joe himself couldn't care less about policy until that policy comes to take his favourite toy away? "Rabble rabble rabble!" is just noise without a meaning.

I do understand that this is a difficult concept for many to grasp, because it's frankly one that is unique in its kind, I can't think of anywhere else in our everyday lives where things work like this, so parallels are hard to draw. Most of us are used to hide behind that "The customer is always right!", but here on a wiki that doesn't quite work, because here we're all customers and we're all staff at the same time.


 * My guess (hope) is that if you give these people time to read and understand the build wipe, they may come to like it. I opposed this at first, but once I realized what was truly happening to the wiki, I came to like the idea. Now, it would seem that there are quite a few that won't do this due to their unrelenting love of the builds section, but again, I hope people will come around.--Nog64Talk [[Image:Yaaaay.png|19px]] 22:20, 4 April 2007 (CDT)

Part 2: On common sense and lack of it
I have no doubt in my mind that the vast majority, if not all, the people that are so vocally opposing now are going to keep using GuildWiki even after this wipe has occurred, and use it even more than ever before. Here's why:


 * The people so strongly opposed to this are focusing only on the title, "Builds wipe", failing to notice the part that describes that:
 * The builds can be very easily undeleted if the new policy decides it to be so. Nothing is going to be lost forever. Even if the undeletion were not available, there already exist multiple copies of the entire builds archive not only in userspace, but even offsite entirely.
 * There are new build policies being worked on. There are new build policies being worked on. There are new build policies being worked on. (Everybody got that?) This thing is the first step, not the last! Successful GvG and HA builds, they're all going to return in one form or another. Your 55hp and DoA and Drok's runners builds are all going to return in one form or another. Discussion and efforts on how to save as much as possible are happening NOW. Go to the top of the page, where Peej has posted those links, and click on them!


 * In the end, this is being done with the best of intentions, and is being pushed by people who have a far more clear view of the overall picture than the complainers.
 * Quick reality check: the people that are now unfairly taking away your toy are also the very same people that came up with that whole section in the first place. The vast majority of editors here are just using this section, these admins and veteran editors fucking built the thing. If they're willing to take down something they built, there must be some very good reason, correct?
 * Most complainers have never stepped out of the builds section, ever. They've never engaged themselves in activities in any other parts of the wiki, they have a very distorted view of what a healthy and productive wiki environment really is. If you really think that the petty quarrels and bitching in the W/Mo Zealous Benedictor talk page is "good discussion", boy are you in for a surprise if you come and check how the rest of the wiki works, how real arguments work, how consensus is really reached.
 * For better or for worse, even though the majority of you are just freeloaders who take it for granted that someone will do their dirty work for them, well, there's actually nice people out there that care enough about this place to get that dirty work done. These same people that came up with Builds 1.0 and are taking down Builds 1.0, they are also working hard on the new build policies, filling page after page with discussion on how to make the next version better. Show a little faith, ye heathens?

I personally feel disappointed by the response of most of you towards this, was really expecting some more common sense and maturity to be shown. But apparently it was an assumption I shouldn't have made. --Dirigible 22:12, 4 April 2007 (CDT)

Please tell me this is a late April Fools' joke
Please tell me, that whoever linked to the other build resources as "much better sites", simply overlooked the lack of updates on them. The unfounded elitism. The fact that Guild Wikis, is presently, the best resource for PvE builds. Period. All I've found from this ridiculous garbage is that a few people "don't like" certain builds that have been tested, and because they're too moronic to get them to work, they're convinced the system is a "failure", so they'd rather each and every build wiped. Idiots.

By removing the builds section, you are removing the reason 3/4 of people use this website. The entire idea that this is ample warning is absolute BS. It's like having a trial for someone, sentencing them to death, without ever telling them they were being investigated and having the trial completely seperate from them, and then giving them a one-month warning that they're going to be shot in the head.

Comedy. Gold.

At the very least, the builds could be archived ON HERE, not on OBSCURE USER PAGES. The very least. So now that builds are going to be removed, what makes this site any different from the official wiki? Hell, you know what, I can't understand any of the mission articles. WIPE THEM OUT. ALL OF THEM. Or wait! Because ArenaNet sometimes changes item stats, it's too hard to maintain -- prevent any item articles and wipe out all the current ones. Ugh. Darkahn 00:10, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Please read . -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 00:11, 5 April 2007 (CDT)

...It's called sarcasm. Darkahn 00:12, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Rants do not help stop this, User:Sefre/Build Wipe Petition, I have tried to organize a support and resource page for those who oppose the build wipe, mainly due to lack of discussion by whole community and damage done to site once it goes in effect.--Sefre  [[Image:Sefresig.jpg|15px|]] 00:20, 5 April 2007 (CDT)


 * I would suggest the original poster read the post by Dirigible above. It is probably the best thought out post on this whole, long page.  --Rainith 00:21, 5 April 2007 (CDT)

On another note, the same idiots who don't like spellcasting warriors or sword-wielding ritualists are probably the same ingrates who probably said "LOL 55 HP U NOOB" to the solo-monk concept. Alternate playing styles. Exploiting what is there. Like a game of chess, that is what a build is. I've seen spell-casting warriors annihilate 1v4 an entire group in RA, and I've seen that exact same warrior die at Shing Jea. This is not World of Warcraft. Darkahn 00:23, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Watch violations of GW:NPA, admins seem to notice more often if you go against the grove.
 * As to dirigibles summary, he outlined just about every supporting fact, obviously biased on the situation, as can be expected....--Sefre  [[Image:Sefresig.jpg|15px|]] 00:26, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeh, because making sense is definitely full of bias. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 00:27, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Where the hell have you been? Life is perception, what makes sense to you can look like fevered rambling to me. Of coursed its biased, your comments on this page are biased, I'm sure mine are too. Its guild wiki politics, don't pull the making sense crap on me--Sefre  [[Image:Sefresig.jpg|15px|]] 00:33, 5 April 2007 (CDT)

Rainith: All I saw in that post was the prepubescent insulting of intelligence and maturity based on differing opinions, and the same tired nonsense that was used against the entire concept of having build-sites in the first place, not to mention the typical PvP unearned elitism. Freeloading? SO WHAT? Imagine if ArenaNet said "we're shutting Guild Wars down. None of you helped build it, so gtfo. We might/might not bring it back. LOL GGKTHXBAI". Same principle -- I contributed to a few builds, so that slaps down that nonsense. It's hardly "thought out", although it's atleast better than all the other garbage reasons for doing this.

Also, Sef, while I appreciate the tip, I'm not too concerned over losing my access to this site if my one reason for using it is going to disappear over the qualms of a few. Want a new policy? Fine! Want to stop new builds from being put in? That's fine too. Deleting all this work is pointless and counter-productive. Letting only morons put in traditional-play style builds is not fine. Letting those who've won the wiki-popularity contest determine the course is also not fine. I very muchly doubt every single editor, to every single build, somehow supports the notion of removing it. The naysayers and doompreachers, who were pissed because builds THEY didn't like were FAVORED, are the majority of the ones supporting the wipe.Darkahn 00:30, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * If you disagree with the post I pointed you towards, respond to it, rebut it, tear it to shreds using logic if you think you can.
 * I do believe that if you read the fine print, ANet/NCsoft may shut down the service at any time, for any reason. You bought the product and they are now providing the service free of charge, they may stop providing that service at any time.  This website may shutdown at anytime too, Gravewit pays the bills, but if he stops, there isn't much we can do about it.
 * If you cannot stand the thought of GuildWiki without builds for one nanosecond, well, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. --Rainith 00:39, 5 April 2007 (CDT
 * Wow, I never thought I'd see a admin say that to a user who is just speaking his mind....--Sefre  [[Image:Sefresig.jpg|15px|]] 00:45, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * What? That the builds section will be wiped on May 1st?  That if you believe that that will make life not worth living and that GuildWiki will not be worth visiting at that point that you should leave?
 * Guess what, it is a wiki, no more, no less. If you aren't having fun (which apparently Darkahn believes he will never be able to have fun again if the builds go bye-bye), then take a step back and examine what is really important to you.  Christ, if people got half as worked up about real life politics as they do about wiki politics, real change might be possible in government.  --Rainith 00:51, 5 April 2007 (CDT)

The primary differences between ArenaNet shutting down the servers and GuildWiki removing everything are the following:

1. There are already private servers just incase of GW1's shut-down. They're just not well known. 2. Gravewit stopping the payments is hardly the equivalent of a few tough-talking cunts having every build wiped because of their own insecurities. 3. ArenaNet has given ample warning for such a removal; their edittors were paid. Wiki edittors work pretty much goes out the window, pointlessly, outside of obscure archives with how this will work. 4. ArenaNet would shut down their services either for financial or business reasons -- not because a few over-blown elitists decided the game had passed its expiration date. Darkahn 00:46, 5 April 2007 (CDT)


 * --edit conflict, posting anyway--
 * I for one don't plan on banning you just because you disagree. For the record, I've also never played PvP and, in fact, don't even play Guild Wars anymore. My account /age is something under 300 hours, and those were accrued in the first three weeks of the game's launch. I did, however, quite enjoy the beta weekend events.


 * Secondly, this is an all-volunteer website. We rely on the fact that Users Like You will chip in and help out. This model has worked quite well for most of the wiki. Unfortunately, because of the general immaturity of gamers as a whole, a disproportionately small number of editors wrote the majority of our content, but we still managed, and we did it happily. However, there is one place where our beautiful, utopian vision has never really clicked, and that's the builds section. Blame it on what you will: maybe PvPers are all retarded, or maybe PvEers will accept anything that includes a full skill bar, or maybe everyone who cares enough about a game to calculate damage-per-second is bound to be an asshole. Since those sorts of reasons are the ones people tend to throw out, they simply must be correct.


 * I have a crazy notion that, perhaps, a system based on competition is simply bound to fail on a technological tool based on cooperation. I have another crazy notion that democracy sucks. Wiki is not about democracy. It's about meritocracy. The sysop team here has consistently proven to have what's best for the wiki in mind. I'd like to think that, since I'm the nominal head of the sysops, the same can be said about me. My job is not to implement what the community thinks is best. The community, in general, can implement what the community thinks is best. My job is to step in when the community decides something is great, and they're dead wrong.


 * I certainly don't claim to be infallible. Were that the case, I'd protect this discussion page right now and tell you all to quit bitching. As it is, I'm very interested in views that are different from my own. That's one of the reasons I penned GW:YOU -- because I actually believe that even first-time editors should have a voice. There's a huge difference between "the admins don't listen" and "the admins listened and decided I was wrong." Everything so far has been the second case.


 * Now, if you'd like to come back and make a rebuttal to my stated reasons for this builds wipe, please do so. I look forward to reading it. If you're going to come back and bitch more, well, you're welcome to do that too. I suppose it's your right. However, the rest of the community is rapidly moving past that point, and they're working to make this place the best it can be inclusive of the builds wipe, and I hope you reach that stage soon too.


 * &mdash;Tanaric 00:46, 5 April 2007 (CDT)

Wiping every build, is not the same as a policy change to how new builds are to be added. If there was simply a mass change, and only proven edittors allowed to create/design/alter builds, well, fine. There'd still be dissent, but it wouldn't be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Archiving the tested builds (ON WIKI, NOT ON USERPAGES OR FORUMS), wiping the untested, and then making it less of a wiki, even if those so-called proven authors are idiots, is fair. I disagree with it, but it's atleast fair. This, however, is by all means overkill to the fullest extent. Darkahn 00:52, 5 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Um, yeah, Userpages are on the wiki... --Rainith 00:54, 5 April 2007 (CDT)


 * If we were willing to allow such an "editor-elite" system, your solution is quite elegant. As it is, we're entirely unwilling to allow such a system to develop. I agree we're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. However, the baby we're tossing has fetal alcohol syndrome. Next time we give birth, we'll have been dry throughout the pregnancy. &mdash;Tanaric 00:55, 5 April 2007 (CDT)