Talk:Game updates/Archive19

Gief Updaet
Is it gonna be today? It's late Thursday here. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.158.101.144 (contribs).


 * It's only noon on a Thursday at A.Net HQ, so if it's coming, it might not be for a little while. Sometimes it shows up late or early, or not at all, just to note. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> .cнаt^  20:11, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Linsey's journal said there'd be one this week, so it's coming.  &not; Wizårdbõÿ777  ( talk ) 20:44, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * ARG!! Update Need I!Wont last long...Durga Dido 20:46, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * What will the update bring anyways? Will it sport some rebalancing? I hope so, VoR, WS, WoH and BA start to piss me off.


 * Most people just want the update so they can getz-keys. 75.92.46.118 22:33, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * need moar updatez!!! - Rabus 22:44, 11 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Most people just want the update so they can getz-keys. how so?? what does it change?


 * Well according to Lindsey they have been very busy over there at Anet with this update. (People still use BA?!)Durga Dido 23:41, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You must not RA much...turret is very popular still mostly because of the lack of viable bow elites and that they just keep buffing BA into orbit. VoR can be pretty damn nasty...WoH is only a pain in the ass because the monks immediately drop into low spec 75% block stances...dervs are meh.  They need to address hexway and the current sin meta which is as annoying as ever.  98.219.48.111 00:17, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Other than the BB Sin, Sins are pretty much dead in PvP, tbh. They need buffs and less fragile chains. ــѕт.  мıкε  01:45, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * WoH is only a pain in the ass because the monks immediately drop into low spec 75% block stances Heh. That's when you hit them with Defile Defenses and/or nail 'em with Glass ArrowsOBloodyHell 20:33, 11 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Update is here.(edit check dev updates)Durga Dido 01:29, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It's Over 300!! (files that is)...So where the hell's the patch notes? --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]

(eats indent) Wow... just, wow... King Neoterikos 02:08, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Edit: |NvM, I'm an Idjit ...Also: Holy cow, it's HUGE son --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]
 * All updated and pretty for you all :P -- [[Image:Isk8.png]]  Isk8   (T/C) 02:23, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I gotta say... I love the new instant minion army... RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 03:06, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Palm Strike's added snare makes its aftercast less of an issue. You could probably make a solid pressure sin with Palm Strike and a handful of dual attacks.  I foresee this getting nerfed at a speed slightly slower than the near light-speed nerf of Way of the Assassin. Lazuli  03:16, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Annnd another update. Wonder what got nerfed :P [[Image:ParAmSIG.jpg]](T/C) 03:32, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

The Giganto Update
Well, a nice "quick" analysis of some of the things here: PvE changes: Yep. "Quick" indeed, took half an hour to write this motherfucker. And what the fuck? Motherfucker is IN the FF dictionary! --Gimmethegepgun 03:45, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Mark of Insecurity: awesome now
 * Palm Strike: RIDICULOUS now
 * Seeping Wound: pretty nice now, though some Vermin farmers are gonna be angry (ZOHNOES!)
 * Wastrel's Collapse: FINALLY it's a viable skill, and in fact it looks pretty nice to me! I actually COMMEND Izzy for THIS one! (the apocalypse is coming!)
 * Reaper's Sweep: a decent buff, notable lack of WS nerf though
 * Blinding Surge: oh wtf now it doesn't even need them to be enchanted to blind everything next to them? Come on. At least the duration went down though
 * Double Dragon: pretty decent looking, the huge Fire Magic boost isn't THAT horrible since you can't use a different elite because of that
 * Energy Boon: huh, interesting. Is it an instant-casting enchantment or a skill?
 * Ether Prism: well, the name doesn't make any sense now. And instant casting enchantment? the hell? And PLEASE tell me they increased the recharge and forgot to note it, otherwise we're gonna see Dervs running around completely invincible in the near future using Extend Enchantments . Well, it seems they THANKFULLY increased the recharge to 15, so there'll be none of that. Good spike stopper I guess, and decent energy gain, but not really worthy of elite status IMO
 * Fevered Dreams: oooh daze! Not bad
 * Power Leach: wow that energy steal value is RETARDEDLY high, it's like Shame mixed with Guilt, but without the skill failure or the ENDING
 * Recurring Insecurity: Well, looks like Soul Barbs spiking is over, though I think that Soul Barbs + RI + Drain Delusions + Shatter Delusions may become popular, that could be pretty nasty! Also great cover hex if you get it on top, they remove it and it'll come right back!
 * Shared Burden: Nearby range for all that? ouch
 * Symbols of Inspiration: That could turn out interesting, though still pretty unreliable
 * Boon Signet: Far underpowered IMO
 * Life Sheath: so it's RoF except elite with condition removal. Rather use Weapon of Remedy honestly
 * PnH: YOWZA! It's actually good! Though a question: why does it disable your Smiting Prayers?
 * Ray of Judgment: So, it's an elite Holy Wrath. SUCK! I mean, yeah, it hurts, but seriously it's a PBAoEDoT. When are those EVER good?
 * AotL: wow, instant mega army, and probably full energy if you're in PvE (minion overload, massive energy for any necro in range) and then +1 DM as a topping. Nerf imminent
 * Cultist's Fervor: now THIS is what it should've been all along! This could see great use
 * Lingering Curse: Ouch, sucks to be the monks on the other team, eh? And now Flesh Golems are gonna be even MORE annoying. Oh joy!
 * Weaken Knees: So it's a Necro elite Shameful Fear. Yay for necromancers stealing other classes' skills!
 * "Incoming!": So... it's "Fall Back!" without the ending clause... and in Command. Whooptie-fucking-doo, the name doesn't make any sense now.
 * "It's just a flesh wound.": So the name makes ABSOLUTELY no sense in the SLIGHTEST any more, and is STILL in Motivation. At least they should get their ONE (lolz) energy back now!
 * Angelic Bond: A party-wide Divine Intervention that only triggers on one person and then dies. Boo.
 * Archer's Signet: And yet the only 2 conditions worth lengthening, Burning and Daze, are both caused by elites. It's Practiced Stance all over again, except without ONE useful combo.
 * Spike Trap: So they doubled it's power (basically) and made it harder to dodge. Annoying, better for UW trappers, kinda lame otherwise still.
 * Strike As One: Well, pretty much anything is better than what it USED to be, and this looks kinda evil. You cripple your target, the pet TELEPORTS there and then covers the cripple with bleeding. Evil.
 * Trapper's Focus: WS boost, not bad. Still kinda lame though since traps still kinda blow
 * Clamor of Souls: Decent looking staple skill. Too bad its elite.
 * Destructive Was Glaive: No more enchantment dump on end, and lasts a hell of a lot longer. THAT will probably be the staple elite of Channeling from now on since it lasts FOREVER! (Fuck off Clamor, you SUCK!)
 * Enraged Smash: MUCH less of a niche skill, might see some general use. Yay adrenaline-based hammer version of Bull's Strike (which also fuels itself, unless they neglected to say they added a recharge)
 * Hundred Blades: gogo Whirlwind Attack farming!
 * Primal Rage: Elite Frenzy with speed boost packed in. MUCH better than before.
 * Whirling Axe: So basically an adrenaline-based Wild Blow without adrenaline dump. And Elite. And uses axe rather than a certain other one that uses a spear
 * Shadow Form: Still EXACTLY as maintainable, it'll just slow people a bit since they have to recast more
 * Avatar of Grenth: no blocking vs enchanted AND lifesteal? pretty nice
 * Signet of Ghostly Might: holyshitownage
 * Signet of Spirits: Sucks for the same exact reasons Spirit Boon Strike sucks: Recharge is too long, and nothing in Channeling really needs healing (seeing how there's uhh... jack shit... for spirits in Channeling save for Bloodsong (which heals itself) and Destruction (which has loads of health anyway))


 * Quick summary for the attention-impaired: Power creep. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:01, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Silly Entropy. They nerfed Shadow Form (slightly)! This balances out everything else. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> .cнаt^  05:03, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * VoR's much needed nerf comes about in the form of a buff. Power creep.  Lazuli  05:18, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * And WS's nerf comes in the form of a.... uh.... nothing --Gimmethegepgun 05:20, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Well PnH kind of nerfs it too, though I don't believe it's that overpowered. I, for one, think Flesh Golems are now less annoying.  But I tend to run three enchantments on my main. Lazuli  05:26, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * SF isn't maintainable as an ele anymore i think.
 * Elite frenzy is good? Now you can kill yourself faster than ever.... 217.234.231.197 07:40, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Warriors already use Frenzy as an IAS, since it's easy to cancel it out with Rush. The downside of Frenzy (aside from the double damage and all that) is that you can't use a speed boost stance at the same time. I think for that reason alone, some people will give up their elite to bring this and maybe a blocking stance to cancel it (or just Rush again). --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> .cнаt^  07:51, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * For once I would like to say thanks Anet, a lot of these changes are pretty nice, the change to aura of the lich is cool (even though I liked the old one too), I would have like to see the dmg reduction in Shadow Form to be removed but o well, and I must say the elementalist changes are pretty cool too. One of your better updates, even if there are a few negative things in there :) [[Image:Shogankillername.jpg|x19px]] 13:19, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you Anet for the shitty ranger updates...Scorn 17:52, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

What gep said, with a few extra notes:

Palm Strike: WTF?!

Seeping Wound: Uhhh... huh?! So at 12 Critical Strikes, given the preconditions are met, you deal 260 damage over time. Throw in a good combo, and bitches don't stand a chance.

Onslaught: Not bad, but possibly very exploitable.

Double Dragon: Actually worth using now, though that Fire Magic bonus could seal the casket of the unwary in very short order.

Energy Boon: Great... Just what Ele's need, more maximum energy.

Ether Prism: Spike prevention with energy bonus. Whoopee.

Fevered Dreams: A constant Epidemic, with a bit more icing on the cake.

Power Leech: Yet even more power for e-denial mesmers.

Shared Burden: GIMP-STORM.

Ray of Judgment: Might be good in PvE or against stupid minions along with its non-elite counterparts.

Aura of the Lich: CHECK PLZ.

"Incoming!": Add in "Fall Back!" for more running with health boost.

Hundred Blades: Where does Izzy live? My sledgehammer has an appointment with his face.

There's my 2⅞ cents. talk 21:54, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I sense some sarcasm. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 22:45, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * And I sense cake. [[Image:RHSig.jpg]] talk 03:41, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Angelic Bond: A party-wide Divine Intervention that only triggers on one person and then dies. Boo. Oh, yeah? Go beat up on the Diamond Djinn in Ahdashim (in HM, natch) and tell me that. The bastards are nigh unkillable now. You can do it, but it's work.


 * Heh. Match up Seeping Wound with Ebon Vanguard Sniper Support. Hit 'em with EVSS then SW and they'll be toast even if they don't get the Head Shot.


 * lrn2sign. That is all. [[Image:RHSig.jpg]] talk 19:01, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Galrath Slash
so does this now mean it is a prophecies AND factions skill since you could cap it with signet of capture in sunjaign? 13:21, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * No. If you cap it in F, it's disabled for use (padlocked), unless you own P. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  15:03, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I thought they'd changed that to where skills from campaigns you don't own appear locked on the SoC window and you can't capture them in the first place. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:08, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmm, never heard of that. I own all campaigns, so, blah. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  17:51, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Did someone check to see if it was a typo? It's POSSIBLE they might've given him Silverwing Slash like they were supposed to (why am I being an unrealistic optimist? That's not like me!) --Gimmethegepgun 20:43, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * i was there earlier to cap hundred blades on my warr, pretty sure it was Galrath slash he had and not Silverwing Slash Kurtan 22:55, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I thought about silverwing too after i posted this, I can just imagine some Anet employee with OCD 5 minutes before they launched the update "we only have 44 changes! omgomgomg, we need one more! -clicks random page wiki option- -copy & paste- -sigh-" lol [[Image:Shogankillername.jpg|x19px]] 00:08, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * imo, they changed it coz tiger stance+hundred blades on a boss with double damage+X% more depending on level proved too difficult to beat in nm...in hm, coz of perma hundred blades(hm recharge reduction), auto ias, galrath slash and even higher level it must be funny lol -- [[Image:Practiced Stance.jpg | 20px]]89.134.135.215 17:55, 15 December 2008 (UTC)


 * You give Anet too much testing credit... RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 18:46, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, since you do not have a talkpage: Dear IP, please, do not use skill icons as your signature. You can copy the icon and upload it under your own sig name, if you like.  Signatures are supposed to be 19px, not 20.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 18:48, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * He actually is a registered user, but is too lazy to sign in (I think). [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 19:54, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Still needs to upload his/her own sig image and make it x19px. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 19:55, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, Entropy, if you happen to know who that person is, tell them the sig rules. We don't want a trail of talk links on the Practiced Stance icon. :P RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 21:40, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Functionality Changed trend too high
Balancing points around a little is certainly to be expected. But changing functionality completely destroys builds that some of those who like experimenting enjoy. I'm not saying these are strong builds, I'm just saying ANet is punishing those who make up builds for the pure fun of the game. Those people should be encouraged, not punished. The trend in recent updates to have so many "functionality changes" is one that looses confidence in the company. --Mooseyfate 20:54, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It also messes up the Hero A.I. when they forget to change the programming, which is EXTREMELY annoying... I shouldn't have to fucking Micromanage every little use of their Elite powers b/c Anet forgot to change the ideal situations they're SUPPOSED to be using those Elites in. --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]
 * My symbols of inspiration build got turned into a shitty version og sig of humulity(without disable) and arcane theivery. :( THey say they want to push alternatives, but we've got 3 mesmer elites that now focus on using opponents skills (sig of illusions, stonlen thievery, and symbols) and at lest six reg ular skills that use foes skills ( the inspiried/reveals, and arcanes). I understand they want to make more skills useable, but a little more imaginationwould be nice 76.188.100.220 21:21, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Why are people comparing the new Symbols of Insp with Sig of Humil? It's nothing alike, in terms of use. Sig of Humil just disables it. Symbols copies it and gives it rank x (x=FC rank). Also, Sig of Illusions isn't specifically an enemy's skills... PvE skills, secondaries.. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  21:30, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Generally because they're the only skills that directly relate to an opponents elite skill (not counting price of pride) 76.188.100.220 21:34, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I think they are doing this to try and deal with power creep. King Neoterikos 23:13, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * they're doing a poor job of it by only buffing, if they wanted to stop power creep they'ed stop buffing and nerf abused skills. Specifically in the case of symbols, the skill is dumb because its another way to do the same thing. 76.188.100.220 23:18, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not opposed to the functionality changes - they add some variety to the game and new life for some elites that comparatively speaking were not used as much. I definitely agree with ilr's post about hero AI though.  If the developers radically change a skill's functionality but forget to adjust how hero AI uses it, they've frustrated their player base and created cause for the skill to not be used, which is contrary to the goal of modifying it in the first place.  Shadowlance 01:29, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Personally, I think it was just Izzy's time of the month and he decided to use his double-headed penny to determine which skills got changed completely. Izzy should be brought before the judges of GW and tried for his crimes.  Then again, he'd probably be drawn and quartered.  [[Image:RHSig.jpg]] talk 01:34, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I can personally say that Heroes use PnH just fine (like any other removal, they cast it at the first sign of trouble, and again whenever it's recharged). They probably don't use the new Energy Storage ones well at all, nor Enraged, etc. One thing I've been told from ANet employee is that while they do try to test things to make sure they work, that mostly involves someone going out with the skill on their bar and pressing the button. (Of course, SaO was still bugged, but...w/e) They don't really have the time or resources to test every aspect of skills: how Heroes will use them, what missions and quests will become harder, what will happen to PvP. I mean, it's obvious that PnH is supposed to be the one-stop answer to hexway, but beyond that they can't see into the future when they make changes. They just don't have that capability. (Remember the WoH buffs, and removing Forgotten Sages? Yeah.)
 * Anyway, "Functionality change" is something I usually dislike seeing, because it tends to cause more problems than it solves. I like it when they take shitty skills like Wastrel's Collapse and actually make them usable by more than one bad gimmicky build. I don't like it when these new skills become completely imba and break things (read: AotL). You can rework an elite to make it more viable, but just because it was horrible before doesn't give you free license to make it ridiculously powerful now... [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 04:11, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * My absolute favorite thing is when Anet completely changes the function of unused skills. It breathes new life and opportunity into the game, creating entirely new gameplay possibilities. Yall should stop yer whining. Seriously. (GW-Kiron 06:06, 14 December 2008 (UTC))
 * I mean, its anets freaking game. They have the "right" to do whatever the eff they want with the skills. Its beyond generous of them to try and balance competitive play, its something we dont even deserve. They dont get paid by us with monthly subscrips for it. Some of your attitudes beat everything Ive ever seen. (GW-Kiron 06:10, 14 December 2008 (UTC))


 * Well said. King Neoterikos 06:40, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * QQ about the QQing more pls.--Łô√ë [[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg|Ho ho ho.]]îğá †ħŕášħ 06:42, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "the one-stop answer to hexway". Yeah, now hexers will just toss Soul Barbs in there somewhere and dump RI on top of the stack and PnH becomes a death wish. Maybe throw in Fragility and a couple conditions for even more fun. And Remove Hex will also be utterly useless again since it will do absolutely NOTHING with RI on top. Except trigger Soul Barbs --Gimmethegepgun 06:44, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

(Gimme, that's beside the point.) Kiron, you're buying GW2, I assume? (T/C) 07:14, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If its a good game and I still hve time for this stuff, Ill buy it, just like the original. (GW-Kiron 14:52, 14 December 2008 (UTC))
 * Anyway, using awful builds based on crappy elites is not a good argument for keeping them, it just makes you look bad.[[Image:Ereanorsign.jpg]]reanor 15:22, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I partially aggree with this topic, some of these skills have changed enough (and the old versions were good enough) that they should have just been new skills completely; EotN still doesnt have any elite skills exclusive to it, I doubt it would be immensly hard to pop a few new skills in up there. But then again some of the skills only change about 25% of their function and I aggree it can be annoying, but they should remain the same skill like they have been and I guess we just have to deal with it. [[Image:Shogankillername.jpg|x19px]] 17:13, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Disagree w/ topic, I believe changed functionality rewards those who are creative and like to toy around with builds. I believe the only ones it really hurts are those who lack creativity and need to use the same builds over and over again because said builds probably win hard. (note: I lack creativity and have abused the hell out of sabway and any other build I find that wins hard, yay necro +1 immunity to nerfs.) Deviant Priest 22:59, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Dec 18th?
At 5:40pm EST I just got a big file download (over 110 files)... Did anyone else just get a new patch too or was this a nluke? --ilr
 * I didn't bother to look how many files I downloaded, but a few of my friends told me there was an update on msn so. ;P Probably a few wintersday updates? Xxteacakez 22:43, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Decorations for wintersday are up [[Image:Zefirsig.jpg|19px]] God Zefir  22:49, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Parsing gw.dat for new info as I type this. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 22:54, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Lol
Increased faction gain per kill in Amatz Basin to 5. guess giving 1 faction per kill was bad idea--67.165.112.125 01:06, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Jingle Bear
Before the update this dumbass "suprise reward" was labeled "R5 Jingle Bear" and now it is "Lvl 5 Jingle Bear" should this be noted? 01:01, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That's probably the bug they had to fix to make it tamable. Tamable pets don't have a profession, which means it should show as "Lvl 5 Jingle Bear", as it does now.  "R5 Jingle Bear" meant that it was a standard, non-tamable NPC with its profession set to ranger.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 01:46, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Uh... last I recall most (maybe all) pets were R5. At least in Presearing they are, that's the last place I checked.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 02:43, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "Fixed a bug that prevented players from taming the Jingle Bear." o flippitty ding, its tameable now, still has to be the 2nd worst thing (behind loot scaling) that Anet has thought of. Its a friken polar bear with bow on it that you cant even tell is there if you get up close, not to mention it is exclusive to rangers.  They better be pulling a "lets get them pissed and then give them the REAL suprise" or your going to see in the headlines of the newspaper "Gunman Kills ## in AreaNet Building Shooting" [[Image:Shogankillername.jpg|x19px]] 15:18, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * How are pets exclusive to rangers? Any character can go /R and tame a pet, a lot of people do that just to have an extra meatshield in the party.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:36, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * well not "exclusive" to rangers, but its not often you see an elementalist or monk running around with a bear, my main point to my anger is I got all excited for a "suprise" and when I found out it was a polar bear with a colar on it, you can see how thats kind of depressing... [[Image:Shogankillername.jpg|x19px]] 15:53, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Hello, I don't mean to be rude, but they have actualy bothered to add something new this year. They could have given us the same thing as last year, but they actually added something new. New = work, and work = not cheap. So please stop QQ'ing, and brighten up. Its nearly X-mas after all. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 19:19, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * They added all the EotN wintersday quests. fair enough, but the polar bear pet isn't really new content. The model has been ingame for a logn time, it's just been scaled down. I tamed/am going to tame it on every character I run through. But That's more because I'm a collector than because I like it. Something I think they should have done is to make the miniature polar bear easier to get. The droprate on that thing, plus only being possible to get 2 weeks/year, just seems wrong for an event item. Viruzzz 10:49, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * AMEN. Give people a piece of candy for free, but no, they'll demand the whole box...  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 19:47, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * But... but... I wanna tame a Wintersday Moa! *whines inconsolably* Dx--72.220.203.111 23:11, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
 * In addition to what Arnout aka The Emperors Angel said, you also have to remember that a lot of the ANet staff is also working on a little thing called Guild Wars 2. You know, the big sequel to this game that we're playing? So, yeah. Cut 'em a break. 66.207.82.44 00:11, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * 72.220.203.111, Jingle bear wtfpwns wintersday moa anyday. Stupid dancing bird. puh. Big ass bear (with a cute bell) ftw! Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 09:56, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Arnout, I'm not saying the quests were bad, it was nice to actually have fun doing something like that, but it was the reward I am mad about [[Image:Shogankillername.jpg|x19px]] 15:53, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The Jingle Bear wasn't meant to be a reward to the EoTN quests (you get summoning stones, cc shards, etc). It was meant more or less to be a bonus given to people who played the game. And besides, it would be a cool pet to have in a few months time since I doubt it would be available for capping after Wintersday ends.Horus Nightlight 06:14, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * In summary...wah, wah, wahhhh,sniffle,wah. C'mon, just what did you all want or expect? I was taught long ago...You can make some of the people happy some of the time, but you can never make all the people happy all of the time.--Dosearius 22:02, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, point made. You win. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 12:54, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Obvious Reference
...To the golden compass. Discuss lol. (GW-Kiron 03:17, 22 December 2008 (UTC))
 * Wut? O_o Then again, I haven't seen it... RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 05:15, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I saw the movie. I had the feeling that it was as "cheap" as the Eragon's one. Both are fans movies. Harry Potter movies are better done (but maybe with a way bigger budget). The polar bear in GW can't be a reference to that because it only was a response to all the players who wanted polars bears in the first place, long before that movie was made. — TulipVorlax 06:28, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Not that I personally care that much, but The Golden Compass is a specifically anti-Christian movie, the authors apparently wrote it specifically as a counter to C.S. Lewis' The Lion And The Wardrobe and its sequels. ANet might want to be careful with that. I know people who won't see Daniel Craig in movies because he was in it, and promoted it heavily (in their opinion, beyond the usual, suggesting he supported the anti-Xtian nature of it). Not that I'm looking to start a flame war here about religion. OBloodyHell 00:08, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The movie was pretty piss poor given how great the book was, tbh. Even though I'm hardly a serious fan (only ever read the first one), I was disappointed. (Although that goes for the Narnia movies too.) While the book may have had certain messages/themes in it which were anit-Christian, as usual the movie blows it way out of proportion. It reminds me of those people who disapprove of Harry Potter because it preaches occult magicks and turns them into Wiclets. :\
 * Anyway, I don't see much reference... I am pretty sure it was based off the prior popularity of the miniature Polar Bear, Polar Bear pets, and Ursula the White. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 00:23, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, but the Harry Potter thing is flat out stupid. The HP universe is clearly NOT this universe. Any proviso against magic can therefore be treated as possibly meant by God for This universe but not That one. And all the HP culture shown celebrates Xmas. That hardly suggests a connection between magic and The Dark Lord which might be applicable in our culture (and yeah, I know the difference between Wiccah and Satanism -- the actual provision in Hebrew is not against a "witch" but against those who place curses on others... including "Damn You!" ;oP ) OBloodyHell 16:50, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Disconnect Problem
Hey, in the past 2 or 3 days when I am playing GW the game slow downs and I become "stuck" I either get kicked if I wait a while, or I exit by clicking the "X", and it takes a while for me to log back on. I also noticed when I got back on, a VERY large portion of the guild list (we have about 100 members, so this isnt a small situation) all had 1-4 minutes offline next to their name. Plus all my friends said it has happened to them too. Since it seemed it was a global issue, I gave Anet a break from the 3 million tickets they are probably getting by not sending one myself. So does anyone know what is going on? 22:19, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
 * They have server problems or somthing, alot of people have routinely complained about lag and dissconnection problems. Roland Cyerni 22:21, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Update
Palm strike predictably was nerfed, damage and cripple duration was reduced.
 * Big whoop--98.247.164.84 04:18, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Technically, yes, it was nerfed, but two of the three things wrong with the skill are still there. He removed the overly long cripple, but the fact that it is way to spammable is still intact, as well as the fact that it's unblockable good damage that circumvents all normal melee counters. What I mean to say is that Palm Strike bypasses the assassin concept of Lead-Offhand-Dual, and having only one way to use your skills, and gives the assassin too many options in the event of them being hard-countered with things like shield bash. -- [[Image:Ruricu-sig.png]] 05:01, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The assassin class is a powerful spiking/high damage tool, which means it must have a counter besides the standard ol' blindness. Everything in this game needs to be balanced, and the spiking capabilities vs. the set attack chain of the assassin provide the balance for that class.  Just my opinion... [[Image:Shogankillername.jpg|x19px]] 12:52, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Um, cry moar? :p  --76.113.200.14 06:38, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Look! Another worthless comment!  TRA-LA-LA!  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 07:34, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Maybe the Monks could start carrying CTT, Help, and PS with PV(as the cover-enchant) if they're the ones getting spiked and trampled by this skill. If anyone else is getting spiked by it still then that's their fault, the crippling and Dmg were both reduced and that's significant enough... --ilr
 * You need pretty good reflexes to catch this combo with Purifying Veil. I've always wondered why a simple anti-KD like Aura of Stability isn't used, but I know it is because of the spammability - which was not addressed at all. Anyway, uncounterable stuff is always baed for balance. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:49, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The nerf did absolutely nothing to this skill. The fact that it cripples at all, plus the four second recharge are more than enough by themselves. Palm strike sins will not diminish in number at all over this nerf. They can double the crip time and triple the dmg, i dont care. they need to at least double the recharge. its too freakin spammable. (GW-Kiron 09:00, 9 January 2009 (UTC))


 * Aura of Stability is stapled onto every RC Monk's bar in HA, and most-every Mo/W in TA has Balanced Stance and Shield Bash. Still Pimp Slap sins rolled. Heck, last time I played in a team with PS sins, we got a DC'ed PS Sin, and we got a Zaishen Archer in return. We still won a match afterwards, and the enemies weren't even bad (we were, kinda).
 * And Ilr: Stripping yourself of any form of Energy Management (GoLE / Channeling) just to counter instakill sins is insane. In HA you need to Channeltank<1-- frontline as a monk to benefit from Channeling as much as possible--> to spam your brains out often enough. Besides, CTT is easily countered by pressing Pimp Slap 5 times. Which would cost a whopping 25 Energy, which is easily regained by autoattacking. Come on. And "Help Me!"? Blargh, don't get me started. 3⁄4 casts (RC and WoH respectively) can easily catch it. The problem is how often you need to use either.
 * PS is also staple. So is Spirit Bond. Point being? It has a recharge and an energy cost. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  13:00, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah yeah yeah, look I've said elsewhere that I think the whole Concept of the Assassin in an MMO is imbalanced. And I'm not a big fan of PvP that relegates all the Health-Recovery duties to just one class either; which seems to be the case with this one's current Metagame. But even just 4 preventions of PS is more than enough time to get the midline involved in stopping those Sin spikes on the monks, I don't care if there's two or three sins teaming up for the Gank... CTT causes PS to fail and until you've actively prevented "1 Shot solo spikes" like I have in other PvP games, you have little concept of what a real Imba-Gank looks like :p.  GuildWars is sooooo much more responsive and balanced than other games out there and that's why I claimed it was "Significant Enough".  And I know what else you're thinkin':  "Why fill half your bar just to counter 1 stupid elite??"  ...the answer is:  Atleast that one Elite CAN be countered by regular skills --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](09,Jan.'09)


 * DShot counters most-anything with a cast time. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  21:51, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Shouts FTW then, especially one that cuts Cast times in Half ;) --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]


 * I'm a fan of this nerf. The skill remains powerful and usable.  Sometimes, nerfs are so over the top that they leave the skill almost completely useless, hurting the game.  A gentle nerf was in order, and that's what we got. Lazuli  23:26, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * With all due respect, Ilr, unless you've actually fought/watched in obs the Pimpslap sins at work, then you have no idea what you're talking about. -_- [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:40, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * And With all due respect, even if that were true, it wouldn't bother me one bit :D ...atleast on this topic anyway. PvP is so subjective it should come with a bong --ilr
 * Shh, you can't reveal what "Vent" is really used for [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 09:12, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * On the topic of "[stuff] that relegates all the Health-Recovery duties to one class," I fully agree. I mean, sure, some classes have a few heals here and there, but the Monk is still necessary most of the time because you need their raw healing power.  Take D&D for instance, while the primary healing class is a Cleric; almost any magic-using class (Druid, Sorcerer, Paladin, etc) can use healing spells and can cross-heal if need be.  Hell, if you build one right, they can be almost as good a healer as a Cleric while still retaining their class-specific charms, such as Smite Evil (Paladins), Weapon Specialties (Rangers), et cetera.  Then again, who pays attention to a game that's been around for like...  30 years?  Shit's so old, it might as well be in a museum.  [[Image:RHSig.jpg]] talk 06:39, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It's that way in WoW, too. Priests are the main "healer" class, but shamans, druids, and to an extent paladins can all fill the healing role as well. DKS01 09:58, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Careful with that acronym 'round here, its likely to get ya lynched. [/joke] [[Image:RHSig.jpg]] talk 18:49, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Special:MyPage/Lynch them! ftw. Feel free to create (use humor please). -- ◄mendel► 20:10, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I think I'll be okay, I'm not declaring one game>the other, just making a comparison. I did okay when I mentioned the differences in combo systems between assassins/rogues in D2, WoW, and GW so long as I don't start screaming something like "OMFG noobs go play WOW!1!!1!" or something I don't think I got much to worry about:D DKS01 20:17, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Combos are for sissies. Just give your DDO rogue a +1 composite longbow and plenty of arrows (don't forget the quiver!), throw in some points in hide and move silently and nice, light armor.  Sneak around and pull off sneak attacks to your heart's delight.  Then again, I seem to be doing really well as a Wizard; but my Barbarian will kick yer ass with his +2 adamantium greatsword!  RAWR!!! >:[ ]  [[Image:RHSig.jpg]] talk 23:46, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Xunlai Tournament
So, something is f'ed up for me. I didn't get any rewards. I registered my mule account with the sign-in Email as the account name, and put in my regular Email in the next slot that just asks for the Email address. Well, the second one is also the sign-in for my main GW account (yeah, stupid me...) Well, I made December predictions on my mule acct, and it wouldn't let me do it on the main. I didn't get rewards on either. Now it let me make January predictions on both. WTF? Is there anyway to un-register the Xunlai Tournament accounts and do it over with matching Email addresses? I was dumb enough to do it, and the site was dumb enough to let me use my main account's Email sign-in (already registered in the Xunlai House) as the Email address for the mule account Email field... >_< RoseOfKali  05:19, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You can always try contacting support, but that is the worst bug I've heard of to date... dunno how that'll work out. :\ [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:41, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I think I'll give it another chance for next month, but if it's still broken, boy, am I gonna rant... RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 07:43, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Youre gonna rant? why? sounds like you majorly screwed up. (GW-Kiron 09:02, 9 January 2009 (UTC))
 * Oh, well, gee thanks, I didn't notice... By rant I mean beg them to delete the second Xunlai House account so I can start over.  And besides, THEY let me screw up by letting me use an Email address that was ALREADY REGISTERED in the House on another account.  Anyway, this month I was able to do both predictions, instead of just one, so maybe it'll work out.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 09:43, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Not allowing the same contact email for more than one account is major fail anyway, IMO. It shouldn't matter at all. Unless the lottery laws prohibit that. --◄mendel► 10:35, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that's what Usernames are for. But here the problem was using a contact Email for a Xunlai House account that's already registered as a separate Xunlai House ACCOUNT, and somehow failing to make that work by realizing that those are two separate accounts in GW owned by the same person, and that both should get rewards if both voted, because hey, both were paid money for. Unlike last month, it let me make predictions on both this month, so maybe it'll work like it's supposed to.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 19:39, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * At least you where able to make an account. My GW account got hooked up with a nonreal e-mail that does not match my sign in, does not exist, cannot be made (it lacks a @something.com) and cannot be fixed.--Łô√ë [[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg|Colors! ]]îğá†ħŕášħ  22:08, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * ^-that sucks (GW-Kiron 00:05, 10 January 2009 (UTC))
 * Why can't it be fixed? Have you tried asking Support about it? RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 06:26, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes I have, it can't be fixed because (exact wording) "Your account was connected with this email address as a preliminary test for the tournament system, normally user accounts would not be used but the intern typed in the wrong number (he is no longer with us). We can't reset the address because the test is an integral part of the system, and the servers that track account information would most likely result in a crash if we did reset it."  Fuck interns.--Łô√ë [[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg|Colors! ]]<font color="Black">îğá†ħŕášħ  07:43, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * lolwut? >.> Prehaps you could file a class-action lawsuit for all other disenfranchised users whose accounts were misappropriated this way. :C Also I wonder why they do not just fix this during a "Routine Maintenance" downtime. Sounds fishy to me. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:46, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * They sent a follow up message, I was actually the only one that got screwed over by this.--Łô√ë [[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg|Colors! ]]<font color="Black">îğá†ħŕášħ 07:51, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Umm... So do they give you a free 100 Tourney rewards points every month as consolation? They should... RoseOfKali 19:18, 10 January 2009 (UTC)


 * That would imply screwing yourself over is better than not screwing yourself over; I got just 30 TRPs this month and forget it about one-in-three until Twilight tells me he is mATing again; which is too late. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  19:23, 10 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, ok, 50? It just seems really odd that they would throw their hands up and go "Nope! Can't fix it! You're screwed!" on one of the popular features of GW... RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 22:43, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I haven't actually contacted them about tourney points gratuities. So I don't know what they would say to that.--Łô√ë [[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg|Colors! ]]<font color="Black">îğá†ħŕášħ  23:25, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Might as well send them a message, the worst that will happen is them saying no. Ask for an alternate method of turning in your predictions or something. (GW-Kiron 19:58, 11 January 2009 (UTC))
 * If I was ANet I wouldn't go through any sort of trouble to fix this for just one customer (and risk breaking it for everybody else in the process, if only for a short time). Technically, they're legally liable for a refund of the game price if you had decided to stop playing because of that, and of course you didn't. --◄mendel► 06:45, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * True, but it would make them look like assholes, moreso than they already are. Personally, I would offer some form of consolation due to this mix-up as a way of saying "shit, my bad," ya know?  Free TRP's or something like that should be in order.  [[Image:RHSig.jpg]] talk 18:57, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Canthan New Year
I bought seven stacks of glittering dust last year! MUNEEE! (GW-Kiron 17:39, 30 January 2009 (UTC))
 * Meh, fireworks are too expensive to craft... RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 21:33, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Näkkst apdäit?
Any word on when the next balance update's gonna be? Lookin forward to more "functionality changed" for underused elites - and maybe a deserved WoH nerf (and other HP elites buff) -- Taki Fujiko  14:13, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Updates are usually the 2nd thursday of every month. So it should be 12-13th feb (depending on where you live) <font color="Green">Lยкץ๒๏ץ <font color="Blue">talk  16:29, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * If anything, the WoH nerf would only be in PvP, PvP'ers are the only ones whining about it, as if Diversion and Power Block didn't exist. But anyway, Anet already said they're working on a "very large" update for account based HoM and something else that I forget that will be coming in April, so I assume they're too busy for many functionality changes, they will only attend to the minimum.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 19:52, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Lol at the idea of pblocking the heal monk. WoH doesn't get moaned about all that much in comparison to stuff like MoI or LC. Lord of all tyria 20:09, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I asked this a while ago and an experienced source was Very Skeptical, to say the least --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](05,Feb.'09)
 * If they nerf woh, there goes my source of gladiator points (GW-Kiron 03:45, 5 February 2009 (UTC))

02/05/09
Why don't I see this in the updates descriptions, even though it's in the code? RoseOfKali 01:31, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Because it's not an update, it's a downgrade. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 01:34, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * fix't [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 01:49, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Terrible update IMO... 66.131.88.142
 * Fixed some long-overdue bugs/anomalies, nerfed a few broken skills (that were used in GvG builds), didn't touch much else (like PS). Oh well, at least they didn't buff Seering Flooms or something stupid. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 02:04, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Leaving PS as is, while nerfing "Frenzy-2.0", doesn't qualify as something stupid ? --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](05,Feb.'09)
 * Prage needed a nerf. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 04:41, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

So, anyone know what was the second update for? There aren't any update notes on it. RoseOfKali 03:59, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Implemented the "not noted" MoI update. Before, it only changed the description. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 04:41, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * So are they just not gonna nerf PS? Can't they make sin viable again without making it through only one skill? cmon ppl, lets see a SP recharge buff, a WotA rebalance, a beguiling haze buff! theres lots of ways to make sins play the way they are supposed to without making PS total crap-dmg-mac. (131.95.174.221 06:23, 6 February 2009 (UTC))


 * The Restoration/Lively Was Naomei bug was a nuisance. I've had situations where the game said I wiped even though Razah was still alive with a permanent rez.  Fixing that is good.  Quizzical 06:33, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * How would a game say you wiped if a party member is still alive? I actually preferred it bugged, because it would start the res shrine countdown and save some extra DP by teleporting everyone out of the fight before all were dead and letting me prepare for a second round, as opposed to ressing the party completely helpless from Resto/LWN in the middle of a fight.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 09:21, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * It's a different story if your last man standing drops dead while holding the ashes, or with the spirit still around. THEN it's good for the game to know that you're all about to res, instead of declaring it a wipe. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 09:23, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * If for example, you are in FoW/UW/insert other elite mission with chance of failure - imagine your party dies and the only party member remaining is a hero with Lively Was Naomei. The game would consider your party wiped and kick you out of the area, since living heroes without res count as dead players, which I can imagine has been a real nuisance to a lot of players. --[[Image:Progger.png]] - talk 11:49, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * "Can't they make sin viable again without making it through only one skill?" ← Whatever the answer to that is, it's probably best asked somewhere else.  The Talk:Assassin page has plenty of ideas atleast in regard to Daggers IIRC. --ilr

Only good things are the Dancing Daggers fix and a nerf to MoI abusing Necros and Mesmers - I sorta expected more. Specially some "Functionality changed"s. -- Taki Fujiko  14:38, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Where the heck is the Ray of imba judgment nerf??? It is RAMPANT in JQ(GW-Kiron 14:51, 6 February 2009 (UTC))
 * Because balances are rarely based off low-end pvp. Basically. Lord of all tyria 15:18, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * And because it's a farking huge beam that everyone without a visual handicap can avoid. --[[Image:Progger.png]] - talk 15:32, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Taki, what do u mean by "the Dancing Daggers fix"? What changed? - [[Image:Ins420sig.png]] 420  15:44, 6 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Ummm... Read the update notes? It used to always count as a lead; now the daggers have to hit. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  16:33, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Had read the update notes, didn't notice DD in 'bug fixes', cuz A) didn't know there was a bug w/DD to begin with & B) the bug fixes section is usually insignificant shit that I at most usually just skim thru. Thanks for the info tho. - [[Image:Ins420sig.png]] 420 19:03, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I disagree that the bug fixes are usually insignificant, I've seen so many that are the level of "OMG! WTF?! If only I had known earlier, I would have abused it so much it's not funny." ;) 60.48.227.20 14:57, 7 February 2009 (UTC).
 * Progger, I believe he was taking about the bug where the AI doesn't consider it AoE so they won't scatter from it. (Although "shrine" NPCs in general don't scatter from AoE anyway, so...) [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 02:48, 7 February 2009 (UTC)


 * JQ NPCs die too fast to scatter (LOL 330 HP! ). --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  16:23, 7 February 2009 (UTC)