User talk:Quizzical/Rebirth

Now that most resurrection skills have reduced casting times (along with Monk enchantments which speed up casting time), Rebirth isn't that great, but it indeed has saved few party members from bad places and allowed us to continue. Rebirth causing wipes... that's only if you fail to use it. J Striker 06:25, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


 * You didn't even read the article, did you? Quizzical 06:30, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Did you get Masters' on that Zen Daijun attempt? [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 06:32, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


 * No. And if I had rebirth, I still wouldn't have gotten master's reward.  Quizzical 06:36, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * And yes, I actually read the article, in which you're pretty much stating the very obvious about Rebirth, that it shouldn't be used in combat. It's only advantage is that it doesn't cause monsters to aggro you or your resurrected party member in those near wipes. However, if you are the only party member remaining and you have Rebirth, you can resurrect all members of your party eventually, without wiping out. J Striker 06:38, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


 * That's basically a concession that you didn't read the article. I went on at great length about how several other skills can do exactly what you describe, even under the rare circumstances most ideally tailored to the use of rebirth.  Quizzical 06:43, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I am aware that all resurrection skills do exactly same thing, some of the skills are better in some situations, others in other situations. It's not the skill that works well or not, it's about how you're using it. Rebirth is capable of saving your party from near-wipes, where spells such as Restore Life, Resurrect, Flesh of My Flesh and others are not an option. J Striker 06:55, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know of your experiences, but I've had many in which Rebirth has proved to be useful. J Striker 06:58, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Compared to restore life, yes, rebirth can save some near wipes that restore life can't, but that's because restore life is touch range. The proper comparison is to reuseable resurrection skills with spell range.  Compared to resurrect, flesh of my flesh, or signet of return, I have never seen a wipe that rebirth could have saved and the others could not.  Furthermore, I could not set up such a situation in the game if I tried.  I could probably set one up if given editors to create a custom mission with custom mob placement, AI parameters, and movement paths, but it would take quite a bit of doing--and it would probably take a good deal of testing to get the placement and timing quite right, as well as an intentional near-wipe to require the use of rebirth.  Quizzical 16:27, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Have you done HM DoA without Trinity/Ursan? Try surviving when using Death Pact signet when you have no Monks. Corpsecampers ftl. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 16:31, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


 * My claim is not that all other resurrection skills can save a wipe in the cases that rebirth is meant for, but only that some can. Death pact signet has the drawback that if the resurrected character does not get away in time, the player who used the skill dies, too, which is why I didn't mention it in the relevant part of the article.  It's mainly a vanquishing skill, for use when, if you're going to wipe, it's best to wipe quickly and with minimal death penalty.  Quizzical 16:52, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay, my next argument: You mention the by-one least used rez, Light of Dwayna (rivaled by Revive Animal). It has a small range, below Earshot. It has a long cast time. It costs a bunch of energy. Take the 3 combined words which spell out Light of Dwayna and I'll stop :) --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage 16:57, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


 * If there are no mobs remotely near the party members that you're trying to rez, so that you can stand on top of the corpse without risk of aggroing anything, then range doesn't matter. The only portion of the article where light of dwayna is mentioned was to point out that most of the time when resurrecting out of combat, any permanent rez will do the job.  Light of dwayna is not mentioned in the portion of the article that talks about the relatively rare case that people usually think of when they advocate rebirth. Quizzical 21:17, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

You forgot to mention that Rebirth fails because of Scroll of Resurrection. (T/C) 22:13, 9 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Scroll of resurrection isn't unlimited use at no cost, nor does it have spell range. Quizzical 05:31, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I have yet to see anyone complain about being "Rebirthed". Admittedly, it's not the best rez for general use, but there are situations where it shines. You cant create one? DOA HM, everyone dead but the monk... However, I generally agree with you; it's really overused. :[ - Havoc   (Talk|Contribs) 12:07, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Let's put it this way: going /Mo just for Rebirth is maybe a little stupid, or t least something to be thought over. But as a monk, Rebirth is by far the best skill. The reason is simple: Spending even a few seconds ressurecting a character in combat (in other words, not healing) will likely hurt more than it helps. Especially since the monsters will inevitably (especially in Hard Mode) slaughter the party member who is now at low health. Furthermore, a squishy monk can't hope to survive an aggroed mob all alone. Ressurecting with any other spell will aggro the mob if the corpse was in range. Chances are good that after returning the corpse to its former state, they will hunt you down. Most monsters will somehow detect your precence, despite being safely out of aggro range, when someone else in your party aggros them. Those bosses you mentioned, locked in their little hut, are a far cry from the relentless hunters you find in hard mode endgame areas. Say what you will about other classes carrying in-battle ressurects, but don't try and pass of Rebirth as useless.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]] Entrea   [Talk]  04:51, 29 July 2008 (UTC)


 * For a protection monk to bring rebirth is debateable. While it isn't that useful of a resurrection spell, it's the only one linked to protection, so there aren't that good of alternatives.  Indeed, I often give a protection monk hero a rez signet rather than a permanent rez, and instead leave the permanent rez skills to the healing monk, restoration ritualist, and perhaps paragon that get better ones.


 * For a healing monk, it's an entirely different situation. Using a monk resurrection skill in combat is not a desireable situation, of course.  But when the group is out of rez signets, has a few members dead, cannot run away (or perhaps should not, due to time constraints), and some of the mobs are already dead, using Renew Life or Restore Life may be able to save a group from a near wipe.  The chances of rebirth being able to save the situation are far slimmer.  Instead of losing a monk for 4 seconds, you lose a monk for much longer, and don't get help from the newly resurrected character for a while--if he even survives with the sliver of life that rebirth brings him back with, and then inability to cast a self-heal or get healed by the monk that just resurrected him.  It's not an every day occurrence, but I've seen a number of situations where one of those skills or Flesh of My Flesh has saved a probable wipe by being used while in combat.  That's a lot more common than the never in over 500 successful hard mode mission runs that Rebirth would have mattered for me.


 * For out of combat rezzing, speed matters if you want master's reward in some missions. Renew life, restore life, flesh of my flesh, or lively was Naomei can often get the party up and functional pretty quickly.  Rebirth will make you take quite a bit longer waiting for energy to recharge.  Quizzical 05:33, 29 July 2008 (UTC)


 * If you near-wipe you shouldn't get Masters tbh. Resurrection Chant is a viable Hard Rez for mid combat for any Necro, Ele, Mesmer, Rit (although they got FoMF and DPSig, both with big downsides) and even Monk. I myself never give my Monks a hard rez, or they'll be rezzing every little thing that dies. And when they're skipping the healing/protting for 6 seconds, shit dies.
 * Usually I carry Rebirth, or I'll just wipe. Everyone but the Rebirther has +15 DP anyhow, and if the one with Rebirth joins the DP party, it won't matter too much. Besides, PvE is broken as fuck...
 * So, in conclusion: Even if it's PvE, you're probably beter off not giving your Monks hard rez so they can keep the other 7 people alive. Let them rez. Let them carry hard rez. And Rebirth is overrated, for places with a rez shrine. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  07:45, 29 July 2008 (UTC)