Talk:Soul Reaping

"There are currently no skills that use Soul Reaping; any weapon or armor mods that involve Soul Reaping casting cost or recharge will have no real effect." With the release of factions, this is no longer true. Some new skills are linked to soul reaping.

Desperate Plea for Information about the Nerf
Could someone explain in plain English what the problem was with Soul Reaping and what the exploit was that caused the near-infinite energy problems? If someone figured out a way to create and destroy spirits in rapid-fire succession to generate near-infinite energy then the solution in my opinion was simple. Soul Reaping should trigger only if something was alive long enough to have a soul. In other words, something has to live for say five or even ten seconds before it triggers Soul Reaping. I don't see how that would significantly bother the traditional minion master. Most minions and allied spirits live for at least a short while. And party members and enemies would still always trigger Soul Reaping. But wouldn't that stop the abuse?

Oh, and has anyone actually figured out how the new Soul Reaping actually works? The new wording doesn't make sense to me.

Factions Soul Reaping
Because of the fact that Soul Reaping gained skills and the fact that there is alot of Binding Ritual use in Factions (As seen in Preview event) that it should be noted it's consitered slightly more 'useful' in the Factions Campain.
 * How does it differ from the fact that Prophecies have Nature Rituals? In any case, the usefulness of this attribute is not related to "Associated Skills". -PanSola 06:47, 18 April 2006 (CDT)
 * Nature rituals aren't constantly spammed like many Ritualist ones are. Ritualist have many rituals which die after a short amount of time due to taking damage for use.  And Ritualist have many skills which speed up the recharge of rituals allowing them to create them more often. And there are many skills now that end rituals pre-maturely which can yield in more beneficial energy and healing.  All of these reasons are besides the fact that Rangers got more rituals aswell. | Chuiu 07:48, 18 April 2006 (CDT)

one quick question...does soul reaping round up at 11 soul reaping, or round down...i.e., do you get 6 or 5 energy?
 * Down. Updated the article.  --68.142.14.19 03:28, 22 July 2006 (CDT)

Revert
I challenge that the older edit has better "grammer [sic] and flow." The original first sentence contains a comma splice. The second is outright awkward by starting with "for soul reaping it does not matter..." because the article is discussing only SR and not contrasting SR with anything else. Even if it were, it would be missing a comma. The phrase "allied to you or an enemy" is also clumsy since it carries an implication of "you" and your "enemy" being singular. Aside from fixing these issues, my edit added additional information and removed the "recent patch" reference. --68.142.14.19 04:23, 22 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Lacking input, re-reverting tomorrow. --68.142.14.19 23:46, 22 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Alright, the Nazi is here. What's the issue at hand? GrammarNazi 22:33, 6 March 2007 (CST)
 * (looks at the date, hangs head in shame)...ignore that.GrammarNazi 22:35, 6 March 2007 (CST)

NERFED
now useless, useless useless useless, the reason it was so godd was beause most necros (BiPs) had enemys dying simultaneously, whup de doo, A net, welcome to complaint city


 * Once again it is a change to reflect PvP and not PvE. Even in AB you will never approach the same number of bodies hitting the floor as anywhere in PvE...so I'm sure Soul Reaping for PvP Necros is not much affeted. But in PvE where you can get energy gains of more than +100 in 10 seconds, Soul Reaping is now woefully underpowered as a primary attribute and source of energy management...a lot of old builds go out the window now...


 * Why couldn't they have just toned down the Soul Reaping skills instead of messing with the attribute itself? It's like if they suddenly decided to make Strength only take effect on non-skill attacks, rather than nerfing Warrior attack skills. Or if they made Spawning Power only affect Ritualist Spirits. Or Expertise no longer affecting any non-Ranger skills...etc. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 17:14, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * It's not the skills that made Soul Reaping powerful, it was the innate effect. The old Soul Reaping was pretty much a limitless font of Energy provided you had enough deaths going on (which is easy to do with minions). Too bad...I never got around to playing a Necro, and now it's too late. Arshay Duskbrow 18:25, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Well, Minions/Spirits only give half Soul Reaping, rounded down...maybe if they removed that entirely it would be a more balanced approach than "every 5 seconds" crap. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 18:27, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeh, some people had better suggestions than one-boost-every-5-seconds (namely SR providing +1..3 mana regen for 1..5 seconds per death... still powerful, less abusable). -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 18:30, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Official statement: 'Soul Reaping's synergy with Spirits and minions opened up a lot of builds that simply never ran out of power. Spirits still provide half Energy, and with Soul Reaping's Energy gain limited, a player death will now provide more net Energy, which we believe will help Soul Reaping get closer to its intended function.' -- Nytemyre 18:58, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Lolz, and if two Spirits/Minions die, and then a player dies in 5 seconds, you gain nothing! So smart ANet! [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 19:04, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * My hands keep balling into fists of their own accord whenever this topic comes up, this is absolute GARBAGE. If people were abusing minions and spirits so badly in PvP, then cut the energy gain from that.  You can't infinitely generate minions non-stop since there's a limited source of bodies to use, and a cap.  Probably just negating energy from spirits would have fixed it.  Every 5 seconds is enough to make me do the impossible: Hate my bloody necromancer. -Gildan Bladeborn 19:35, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * On the "plus" side, this finally gives Necromancers a very good reason to carry Signet of Lost Souls and even Reaper's Mark. Sigh...No more can you say "Energy problems on a Necromancer? Lol!" [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 19:38, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * The solution I would've gone with is making half the energy gain regeneration and half the energy gain instant. -- Gordon Ecker 20:18, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Wow... I hadn't played my necro much since the factions changes and heroes could mm, but this... wow... this makes me want to play that character not at ALL. GAh. Cyrogenic 21:15, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * the simplest solution would be to remove soul reaping from minions and spirits entirly. this makes necromancer a pretty much dead class, at least as far as PvE is concerned. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 21:20, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah, I don't know why they did this. It doesn't solve the PvP problem of just running primary roles, such as a ritualist, or monk, but having the Necromancer as the primary profession. The Spirit Spamming retardation is just a little too abusive. They should just remove energy gain from minions and spirits, and that's all they need to do. The end. Isis In De Nile 02:17, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Removing energy gain from minions and spirits would be a really stupid idea, I think this nerf was overkill to the max but that suggestion is every bit as bad, what would happen to MM's then? Maybe just making so spirits dont effect Soul Reaping would be fine by me but making minions not effect it is a horrible idea. 123.3.32.129 07:05, 6 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Ouch, this change is brutal. DKS01 21:25, 5 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Personally, I think this is ill-advised. This is a sweeping, fundamental change to a core profession and the way it has always played. Necromancers always have been a powerful, versatile and feared profession, but never excessively powerful (IMHO), and I feel like ANet is trying to fix something that wasn't especially broken. I hope they will think about this some more and either reconsider or find a better solution, because this is a serious shift in the bedrock dynamics of the game. Arshay Duskbrow 23:23, 5 April 2007 (CDT)

now useless, useless useless useless, the reason it was so godd was beause most necros (BiPs) had enemys dying simultaneously, whup de doo, A net, welcome to complaint city

- it is not useless...calm down - Chrisworld 00:01, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * yes it is lol, soul reaping is now useless, the first 3 skills in my echo ss necro's bar, costs 55 energy, that wastes all of my energy, by the time i need to start using my other 5 skills, things start dieing, so that 55 energy wasn't a big deal. Now, i can only gain 13 energy, every 5 seconds, when that mob of guys all died within 2 seconds of each other becuase of ss. Those other 6 souls let me keep going, only getting 1/7, i can't do anything else. The obvious nerf here should of changing it so spirits didn't activate soul reaping. That would fix spirit spammers in PvP giving necro's infinite energy, and still maintain the PvE playability of the Necro, which is now lost. My Necro was my favourite guy, now, most of my builds are useless because of energy management problems. Signet of Lost souls, doesn't NEARLY make up for the lost energy from soul reaping, and Reapers Mark, would waste my elite slot. Death Queen Arabess 01:31, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

Wow. I guess my necro charactor will be used for chest collecting now (and will sit next to Ritualist on the shelf). I assume ANet is hoping we only pay attention to all the much needed goodies they gave us with this update (some of which were VERY good, like Chat skill ping to Saved Template!), and ignore this Nerf of not just a skill, but a charactor class.

This really was overkill, and you'd have to have a pretty good arguement for why it wasn't before I would take it seriously. If anything, they should have changed it to 1 energy / 2-3 Soul Reaping. Now we have 2 classes with nearly worthless primary attributes: Warrior Strength* and Necro Soul Reaping. The way it should work is something like the Paragon Leadership on deaths, or what would be better, is something like the Dervish Mysticism, gaining health along with energy when things die.


 * - anyone that says Strength is good - remember, ONLY affects attack skills, would be worth it if it always was armor ignoring (and would make more sense, a Warrior's not only strong when using a skill, but all the time)

Arena Net - Thanks for the Storage Upgrade. I won't be needing it now though, as my PvE Necro just became a storage mule. Queen Schmuck 03:24, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

Okay first you messed with the number of minions I could control (remembering good old days of controlling 50 minions), and I eventually learned to deal with it. But now you've messed with Soul Reaping?! I think this one's a big mistake. This change effects so many necromancer builds, in very fundamental ways at times. Take for example using Arcane Echo and Spiteful Spirit now. The energy cost might or might not have just skyrocketed for you now. For Soul Reaping to work, something MUST die. That's a pretty harsh condition for a primary attribute ability. Top that off with the fact that even if you wanted to run a high Soul Reaping to assure the benefits, there are so few Soul Reaping skills. Okay, I'm stopping now before I ramble on for another paragraph.--&mdash; xis10al   04:17, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

A poor change, why they didn't listen to any of the suggestions given for balancing it is beyond me. &mdash; Skuld 09:40, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

Too late. Soul reaping has been around since the beginning of the game, and just now they are making this change. Maybe reduce it further, but the 5 second rule is irresponsible. There's nothing new about the game that makes it so that if this change were necessary, it had to wait this long to be changed. Apart from the game mechanics, it doesn't even make sense from a theoretical metaphysics perspective that an energy bonus from a death couldn't trigger more than once per 5 seconds. I've been investing a lot of time making my Necro my main PvE character because of how soul reaping has worked since the beginning of the game, and now I feel much of my time spent has been pointless; which exaggerates my feelings that this was an irresponsible change. ANet needs to respect that people make play decisions based on how the game works, and that they shouldn't make changes that so drastically destroy something people have put a lot of time into. If they keep soul reaping as is, I pretty much feel the right to demand all titles be account based, and primary professions be changeable. That's the only way in my eyes to prevent the soul reaping change from being an irresponsible change that's disrespective of their players time.--Mooseyfate 16:36, 6 April 2007 (CDT)


 * This is not a fantasy game, balance matters far more than that sort of thing. When this game came out, it was terribly imba and broken, but most things have been fixed by now. Soul reaping nerfs just came late. &mdash; Skuld 16:39, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

honestly...
i am not even sure i understand the way it works now...does it mean, every 5 seconds you SR from anything that has died within the previous 5 seconds? like, if SR happens at 00:01:00, then between 00:01:00 and 00:01:05 there are 5 deaths, does it then trigger SR 5 times at 00:01:05? or does it only mean deaths that occur at the instant SR triggers? what is the window? Vanessa 00:18, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I believe what it means is that when you receive energy from SR, you must wait 5 seconds before receiving more energy. If something else dies before those 5 seconds expire, you get nothing. --[[Image:SmallMapleLeaf.jpg|19px|User:ImbrilShadowfire]] Imbril Shadowfire  01:00, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * so that means a necro can only SR once per 5 seconds!!!??!? WTF anet!!!  why break the class just to make the PVP people happy??!  (and dont anyone gimme crap about "just bring some e management skills"...the whole POINT of the necro class is that soul reaping IS the e managment!!)  i will be so furious if this change stays permanent!!! >:( Vanessa 01:05, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm pretty sure that everyone doesn't have go and delete their necromancer, just like when everyone wanted to delete their eles when the aeo nerf came out. Just adapt your builds, it's not that hard... Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|19px]] 06:41, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * What, you mean rebuild as if we aren't...NECROMANCERS!? Soul Reaping and necromancers go hand in hand, the only blasted reason to MAKE a character a necro primary was Soul Reaping.  I don't think we'll be deleting our necromancers in a huff, but this update is enough to make me ignore mine forever in the (probably vain) hope that ANet reconsiders breaking an entire class rather then simply dealing with a perceived exploit.  This certainly fixed the PvP problems all right.  Fixed it so well they won't get played at all.  I find myself wondering about the logistics involved with tracking down everyone who abused spirit spamming and punching them in the face.  Thanks a lot jerks! -Gildan Bladeborn:56, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Oh, and this isn't about changing skills because a certain farming build is no longer viable, or finding a more potent build: EVERY build and EVERY skill we select will still be subject to this (except for signets). Necromancers had a broken remnant of a scrapped armor set remain in game for ages, 15k armor that had no artwork variation for ages, and now 2 sweeping and fundamental changes to their attributes.  The only thing that even comes close to how little love necros get would be the Expertise change for rangers. -Gildan Bladeborn 09:05, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * the point is that some of us made necros cuz of the passive ability to control energy...i didnt want to have to use glyphs/signets/ints to manage energy...that is why elems have such a high pool and mesmer have fast cast...


 * trying to play necro in high level zones with lv 28 enemies just became a pointless gesture..necros in high level areas depend on getting SR triggers from multiple foes at a time...i had been hoping Anet would make changes to make DoA more accessible to classes OTHER than Elem, War, and Monk....i guess not...

Another nerf that hurts people who actually play their class to impair those who use it for one utility skill only. Seva 11:06, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

Soul-reap abuse teams were rampant in gvg, spamming every spirit in the game and spiking with SB/RI. Just to clear up any confusion, that is what the balance was intended for. I don't know where the complaints about it being "unplayable and useless" are coming from, i've found it has made minimal difference in PvE... &mdash; Skuld 11:19, 6 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Yes, its still playable, but it is now a lot harder. And like i said earlier on the page, the proper solution to the spirit spamming abuse would of been for spirits to not activate soul reaping. Problem solved, I never did think spirits should activate soul reaping, seriously, how the hell do they have souls. And Skuld, have you ever tried BiPing in city? I think not.
 * Minimal difference in PvE? I would laugh if it wasn't so very very painful how wrong that statement is. -Gildan Bladeborn 13:40, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Put Blood ritual on an E/N, doesn't take a flippin genius to work that out &mdash; Skuld 14:48, 6 April 2007 (CDT)


 * JESUS. I was enjoying the updates to storage and all the other goodies they gave us last night on my assassin, I come and check what else they introduced and I get this...good bye, MAIN CHARACTER. Anybody try MMing since this update? I would like to know specifics. EDIT: Bah, sign in. Spen 14:37, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * They did reduce the cost of minion spells. That helps. If you're having trouble MMing, take SoLS, GoLE, or any number of Inspiration spells. I haven't had much of a problem with it. +13 energy every 5 seconds still does me fine. - [[Image:Candle.jpg|12px]] Krowman (talk • contribs) 16:42, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Yup, i've always ran GoLE since the buff as a MM, but i'm beginning to feel i'm the only one.. &mdash; Skuld 16:46, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * GoLE used to be great for any caster. Have to experiment with my monk for a while, see if it's still viable. I think he employed/abused one of the "few overpowered skill combinations for secondary Elementalists." - [[Image:Candle.jpg|12px]] Krowman (talk • contribs) 16:57, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

Get over it
Just accept the fact that Soul Reaping was unbalanced and quit all the arguing over this talk page, please. Eles took such a hard blow when AoE was nerfed, it's MUCH worse than this. Until NF came out, warriors always outdamaged eles. The game needs to be balanced so please suck it up and adapt. - Skakid9090 16:44, 6 April 2007 (CDT)


 * No, it wasn't unbalanced, at least until people in PvP started abusing it. Every class, has their own form of energy management so to speak, or a way to get the most out of their energy. Monks have divine favor to improve how much their spells heal for, so they have to heal less, conserving their energy. Every time an enchant ends on a derv, they get energy back from it. A warrior has adrenaline, rangers have expertise, eles have lots of energy, paragons have their leadership, necro's have soul reaping. Have you ever looked at the good necro skills? They all cost 10-15 energy, you run out of energy rather quickly as a necro. The only people who say soul reaping was unbalanced, are PvP'ers, and people who never play necros. In PvP, yes, soul reaping was HIGHLY unbalanced, but that was because of people abusing it. The way it got balanced, completly changed the way soul reaping works, and cripples PvE necro's. I shouldn't have to sit around and wait for energy, because i only got 1 of the souls from those 5 guys that all died at the same time. That 1 soul, lets me cast 1 skill, then i'm sitting around useless.

Death Queen Arabess 18:40, 6 April 2007 (CDT)


 * "at least until people in PvP started abusing it", so it was overpowered, so it needed balancing, end of. &mdash; Skuld 18:41, 6 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Yes, and there is a lot better solution to it. Spirits don't have souls, they shouldn't activate soul reaping. ITS THAT ******* SIMPLE. If spirits didn't activate soul reaping, the problem would be solved. And none of us PvE necro's would be complaining. Death Queen Arabess 18:45, 6 April 2007 (CDT)


 * I agree with you. But it was imba, dont mistake that. &mdash; Skuld 18:46, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Player kills in HA are not nearly as common as spirit deaths, which was the exploit of SR. PvE and AB are the only places with mass amounts of player deaths, and those places have little fame or honor at stake. Once again, a.net over-reacts and nerfs it all to oblivion. --8765 18:55, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Just bring energy-management skills like any other caster class. &mdash; Skuld 19:20, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Honestly, they treat it as if HA and GvG are the only parts of gw 67.162.10.185 19:06, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * They are popular modes of play. If this is PvE vs PvP, PvE does not need balancing in the same way -- the foes are pre-set AI, they do not think, they do not change. In general, PvE players do not care about balance as long as it does not affect them, they are happy to keep the over powered skills. If these setups were used against you, you'd mind, but you're getting a very one-sided view of these skills. &mdash; Skuld 19:12, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

10 Soul reaping. 4 natural pips of regen, and 10 energy every 5 secs is 6 pips of regen. If constant BiP isn't enough for you, re-think energy management, like the rest of the classes. - Skakid9090 19:08, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

Well, Skakid, a quick visit to your page and I can see you don't have a necro. Look, it's still doable, but it is extra-painful for no good reason, when the most efficient and reasonable solution is just reducing or eliminating SR from spirits. NightAngel 19:14, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I often play a necro in PvP, and now I just have to watch my energy bar (you know, like I do with other classes). SoLS, GoLE, you know, energy management. I bring energy management on all my classes, and now necros have to do that too. - Skakid9090 19:23, 6 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Skakid, that WAS our energy management, I don't want to be forced to change my secondary to a certian class, just so i can manage my class's energy.
 * Like monks? mesmers? ect.... Oh and SoLS is soul reaping =) - Skakid9090 19:43, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * You don't seem to get it, and not playing a PvE Necro is probably the reason.
 * SR was overpowered before, no one here is trying to say it wasn't. But, we are saying that playing a PvE has become much much harder, to the point where I see it isn't worth it.  A necro blows a lot of energy in PvE, and has to, because we come up against (although dumb AI) 10+ enemy mobs, most of which are 4+ levels above what any GW player charactor can ever hope to achieve.  Don't forget the 2x damage bosses that might be up to 10 levels higher than us.  Hitting a Searing Flames boss, with 238 AoE damage every 1 second, whack, there goes a chunk of the party, or at least your minion army if using a MM.  Without the SR benefit (even if toned down, much like a Dervish losing an enchantment), you are dead, or are running and hope to rebirth the party.
 * Last time I checked, BiP can not be used on yourself. Expecting every necro in party to use this elite is insane, as much as always expecting to find two necros in every party (so min two necros can carry Blood Ritual, though most do anyway).
 * Using GoLE (which was also nerfed, but not too badly) is also worthless for energy management if you face any kind of corpse using mob. Casting GoLE first before casting your corpse spell means your corpse spell fails, the AI just stole the corpse from you.
 * Using SoLS - not very effective, especiallly since PvE necro players now have very little reason to put any points into Soul Reaping (only has 5 skills), except any points might be left over (just like Warrior builds do with Strength).
 * This is basically the same as changing Energy Storage to only give 1 extra energy for every rank in it. The elementalists would instantly be scrounging to find a way to make any of their builds work.
 * If a monk's Divine Favor healing only kicked in once every 5 seconds, I can guarentee my monk would not use DF unless using a few skills with DF attrib.
 * PvP != PvE, as much as PvE != PvP. Queen Schmuck 19:54, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Erm, 10 energy every 5 secs + 4 pips of regen is 10 pips of regen, a.k.a. having constant BiP. - Skakid9090 19:56, 6 April 2007 (CDT)


 * SoLS is NF...there are no Necro E-Management skills in Factions or Prophecies, thus forcing me to switch classes for E-Management. Nevermind that, even if I had NF or was already in a good position to add skills to my bar, I HAVE 8 skills already. They have removed at least one skill from my builds, which could be an integral skill. It's such a fundamental part of the game, it has been, forever, and there was so many other ways to do this. But instead, they raped us. Spen 20:03, 6 April 2007 (CDT)