Talk:Insignia

PvP Only
Are insignia's for PvP characters only or are they for PvE as well?
 * They're available for PvE, but they only drop in Nightfall. -- Gordon Ecker 23:20, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

Insignia Typo
Has the energy for the radiant insignia gain been confirmed? +15 energy on a chestpiece seems rather drastic, one would think it'd be +5 like normal. ClydeBarbarian 23:35, 25 October 2006 (CDT)
 * It was a typo or copy / paste error, someone's fixed it. -- Gordon Ecker 03:10, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

"Campaign" for existing Insignias should be "Core", since they aren't connected to any of the other chapters. --Idanbd 14:05, 26 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Have you got both a prophecies-only account and a factions-only account to personally confirm that they're all available to PvP characters in either campaign? I strongly suspect that the insignias corresponding to Factions armour types are not core insignias. -- Gordon Ecker 15:46, 26 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Surprisingly, all 7 common insignias are available and already unlocked for Prophecies-only accounts. That incluse Surviver's insignia, which is an armor bonus not available to any of the 6 professions in Prophecies.  Still need Factions-only account to absolutely prove they are core, but I think it's relatively safe to conjecture that they are core. - 02:29, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Yeah, I have a Factions-only account, and every insignia was unlocked already. Shido 11:10, 28 October 2006 (CDT)

The Insignia also works on headpiece (PvP Equip) but in PvE there is no speicals on heads but attibute

Move
I used "Armor Insignias" because that's what the update notes called them. The Priest of Balthazar unlock screen just says "Insignias", which I didn't notice last night, so I'm okay with a move to Insignia. -- Gordon Ecker 15:46, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

Using Insignias
Can Insignias be applied to any set of armour (for the appropriate profession), or are they restricted to armour with some kind of insignia slot like Inscriptions? -- Gordon Ecker 05:21, 27 October 2006 (CDT)

Anyone knows?

What's more - are insignias appliable on newly-crafted non-Elonan armours (that is to say, armour crafted in Prophecies or Factions); can they be applied on Obsidian armour (and for that matter, is Obsidian armour still available with pre-set mods or is it now "blank" like the Elonan armours?) - or is all of this strictly Elonan and Elonan only? Phew. Sorry for the run-on sentence, but there's a lot of this that just confuses me. If all of this is limited to the armours made in Elona, the claim of "any armour-skin + any functionality" is both false and very misleading, as it implies that you could turn your 15k Frostbound armour into Sentry's armour instead, for instance. --80.57.106.59 10:41, 28 October 2006 (CDT)

Quite true, we already had decoupled armor art/function in Factions. The insignia system would be nice as a potential replacement for armor stats, but providing blank slate armor and throwing us to the wolves when it comes to aquiring it is reprehensible. At the very least these should be available from a merchant, not unlocked like runes. As it is now, armor made in Elona is automaticaly WORSE then armor in Factions, without insignia in hand there's no reason at all to even bother making it. Unfortunately paragons and dervishes don't have a choice in the matter. --Gildan Bladeborn

Don'g Grumble so much, it was understandable that insignias were difficult to find are first. But little by little, all insignias are becaming adquirable at rune trader. - Coran Ironclaw 12:02, 4 November 2006 (CST)

Related question - Can insignia be applied to armor obtained from Collectors? And if so, is it only collector armor from Nightfall? - HarshLanguage 12:53, 5 November 2006 (CST)

Built-in armor is messy
Built-in armor column is very messy, and in future chapters will be impossible to maintain (heck it looks ugly now). Probably should consider not having it there or find a way to pretty it up. --Draygo Korvan (Yap) 12:32, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I don't think maintain for future chapters is gonna be a problem at all. Only Prophecies and Factions armors have built-in insignias.  As for pretty it up, go for it. - 12:41, 27 October 2006 (CDT)

Campaign
Can all those insignia types actually be unlocked with a Prophecies-only account? They show up on the equipment builder even if you can't unlock them, and I saw several nightfall-only inscriptions incorrectly listed as core inscriptions on weapon upgrades. -- Gordon Ecker 14:43, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
 * If you are talking about about the ones I labeled as "(available to Prophecies-only account)", then the answer is no, you cannot unlock it, because they are automatically unlocked for the Prophecies-only account.  The Nightfall campaign insignias don't even show up in the equipment builder IIRC (might've remembered wrong), though I didn't go take a look at the Priest of Balthazar. - 15:21, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Um isn't ever single unlockable in the Priest of Balthazar?-- &middot;&middot;&middot;&raquo; Life Infusion &middot;&middot;&middot; 23:09, 28 October 2006 (CDT)
 * The Nightfall insignas didn't show up for me until I added the Nightfall key. I was only able to check at the priest of balthazar. -- Gordon Ecker 06:53, 3 November 2006 (CST)

What is it that "campaign" actually refers to? It isn't referred to in the main body of the text and its a bit confusing. Is it referring to automatic unlocks, where you can't unlock it or something else? Tasha Darke 05:19, 18 November 2006 (CST)
 * I believe it's about the ability to obtain the insignias without traiding, either as loot or through the PvP equipment builder. -- Gordon Ecker 05:29, 18 November 2006 (CST)

Drops
I got a bonelace insignia drop in nightfall, therefore i dont believe they are campaign exclusive.
 * All insignias only drop in Nightfall. And Factions crafters offer every funtional available from Prophecies crafters except for the Lieutenant's functional. -- Gordon Ecker 07:00, 3 November 2006 (CST)

Obsidian Armor
From the article:
 * "It is important to note that insignias currently may not be applied to armor purchased in Tyria or Cantha."
 * The Fissure of Woe is a core area which is not part of Tyria or Cantha. I can think of three categories of Obsidian Armor which may interact differently with insignias. Specifically, Obsidian Armor crafted for core and Factions professions before the October 25th update, Obsidian Armor crafted for core and nightfall professions after the update and Obsidian Armor crafted for Nightfall professions. -- Gordon Ecker 22:40, 6 November 2006 (CST)

I would like to point out that the first of the three situations does not allow for the use of insignias. (Obsidian Armor crafted for core and Factions professions before the October 25th update) -- Verena Parsons 13:03, 14 November 2006 (CST)

Knight's Insignia
Anyone know if the damage -3 modifier stacks with other Knight's Insignias? --Delia Rashesh (talk) 02:36, 18 November 2006 (CST)
 * It only applies to the armor piece its on. So if you put it on your chestpiece it will reduce damage taken on the chestpiece.--Coloneh RIP[[Image:Coloneh.png]] 14:20, 19 November 2006 (CST)

Unfair advantage?
I was thinking that with insignias Nightfal characters with full insignia armor now have an advantage (a small one) over characters with tyrian/canthan armor because insignias can be applied to the headpiece.--Coloneh RIP 14:20, 19 November 2006 (CST)


 * No, that's not necisarily true because look at the gladiator's helmet: 80 armor, +1 Tactics, and +1 energy. -- El Delcroy 23:07, 21 November 2006 (CST)


 * I don't call having to spend 1.5+ platinum on 5 Radiant insignias, when I can get it built into Factions armor for 500, an advantage. Yes in the long run Nightfall armor is more versatile, but it's also one more thing to spend money on to get your armor up to scratch. Arshay Duskbrow 23:36, 21 November 2006 (CST)


 * As for non-warrior headgear, which didn't have set bonuses before, all non-warrior Prophecies and Factions headgear was retroactively upgraded with +1 energy (the same bonus as a Radiant Insignia) in the October 25th update. -- Gordon Ecker 01:09, 22 November 2006 (CST)
 * O didnt know that... but its still an advantage to be able to gain a different bonus.--Coloneh RIP[[Image:Coloneh.png]] 17:23, 22 November 2006 (CST)


 * And a Prophecies Lieutenant's Helm is outright inferior to a Nightfall helm with Lieutenant's Insignia due to the lack of an attribute bonus. -- Gordon Ecker 01:14, 23 February 2007 (CST)

Bloodstained insignia
I have yet to see bloodstained insignia at the rune merchant and have been looking for several days. Is it really in that high a demand or has it not been put in yet?
 * I have seen it a few times at the rune trader (6k the last time I saw it) so its just in high demand. --Hitokiri 6:50, 20 November 2006 (PST)
 * I have gotten two bloodstained drops now and both were on Gold armor. I have a sneaky suspicion that it is only available that way (I play a lot). Of course, suspicions will be kep to the /Talk pages. -- [[Image:Ranger-icon-small.png|25px]]Oblio (talk) 16:39, 27 November 2006 (CST)
 * I got one from a Gold armor as well, you're probably right. Haven't seen it drop on anything else. 132.203.83.38 22:33, 21 January 2007 (CST)
 * Got it afew days ago from a Kournan Tunic (Purple)--IcyShaker 06:32, 22 February 2007 (CST)

Bloodstained Insignia is available from Rune Traders but is also very expensive, mine cost 8k but a friend paid 10k just 3 days before hand, therefore a bit of a waiting game needed to get the best price.

insignia outside elona
To be checked: My pre-Elona characters that went to Elona accept insignia; and my assasin that stayed in Kryta does not accept insignia. I checked further It was a rune (+2 energy) that was accepted. So my earlier comment is herewith withdrawn. 82.134.229.173 19:46, 21 November 2006 (CST)

Brawler's Insignia
Can anyone confirm that Brawler's is available to every campaign, or only Nightfall? And please edit the page to show. I have each campaign merged on my account, so I'm not sure. I don't remember seeing this bonus before Nightfall, however. Aubray1741 13:16, 24 November 2006 (CST)
 * I don't exactly understand the whole "Campaign Availability" column, but from what I gathered, it looked like it was if the insignia was available as an inherent armor bonus in a previous campaign. If that is the case, no, the Brawler's Insignia effect (+10 AL while attacking) was not available in previous campaigns as inherent bonuses; the closest thing being Nightstalkers (+15 while attacking) for Assassins only.  However, if it's talking about doing a PvP equipment build thing, then I have no idea, as my GW account has been merged.  If my friend with only prophecies ever signs on again, I'll ask him. Zaboomafoo 13:53, 6 January 2007 (CST)
 * I believe we're counting both loot and PvP availability. -- Gordon Ecker 03:15, 7 January 2007 (CST)
 * I can confirm that I had the insignia for PvP before I had nightfall on my account! 88.109.178.238 14:07, 8 January 2007 (CST)

Radiant Insignias on Elementalists
I've been hearing rumours that Radiant Insignias cannot be applied to Ele armour, and haven't been able to test this out. Anyone know? Bass forte 02:11, 26 November 2006 (CST)


 * Common insignias are supposed to be applicable to any profession's armor, so they should be unless there's a bug. -- Gordon Ecker 02:20, 26 November 2006 (CST)


 * But another thing to note is that Radiant Armor was never a built-in mod for Elementalists... hmm. Seems easy enough to test though, I'll check on my PvP Ele and get that posted here in a little while. Jioruji Derako 05:52, 13 January 2007 (CST)
 * I double-checked on my PvP character, and he's decked out with Radiant Insignias all around. I don't see any reason why this wouldn't be the same for PvE. The rumor is probably due to what I mentioned before, Radiant isn't a choice on Proph. or Factions Ele armor (sadly enough). Jioruji Derako 06:04, 13 January 2007 (CST)

Insignia bug for Assassins

 * Moved from Software_and_technical_issues/Bugs.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 10:51, 26 November 2006 (CST)

I cannot put insignia of ANY kind, on my assassin..........including Assassin insignia


 * Are you using armour crafted in Cantha? Only armour from Elona (and PvP armour) will accept insignia, which means that Assassins and Ritualists can currently only use them with Vabbian and Ancient armour. -- Gordon Ecker 21:05, 26 November 2006 (CST)
 * Obsidian armour now also does. :) Capcom 00:30, 6 December 2006 (CST)

recent plural grammar changes
Futher to the recent edits of user 82.134.229.173 (contribs), I'm pretty sure the game refers to a single insigne/insignia as INSIGNIA, but am unable to confirm. Could somebody verify what the game calls these? — Biscuits (talk contribs) 13:08, 1 December 2006 (CST)
 * Confirmed, it is single Insignia — Biscuits (talk [[Image:Biscuit.png]] contribs) 08:30, 3 December 2006 (CST)

Armor function articles
Should we keep the armor function articles, or merge them with this page in some way? They are beginning to get hard to keep up to date, imo. &mdash; Stylva  (talk)(contribs) 07:36, 13 December 2006 (CST)

Global effects
Are any of these effects global? As in does +10 armor while under the effects of a shout or chant only apply to the piece of armor that it is on? I remember some armor mods in Prophecies being global and others not. 72.133.52.173 19:23, 14 December 2006 (CST)
 * I believe that an update made all armor effects (except for a rune of absorption, I believe) local to the piece the insignia/armor effect is on. I think, but don't quote me on this, that the warrior rune is a global effect, same as that of a shield. --[[Image:SmallMapleLeaf.jpg|User:ImbrilShadowfire]] Imbril Shadowfire  19:24, 14 December 2006 (CST)
 * Any insignia that affects your armour is local, meaning all of the ones that increase armor as well as Knight's. Survivor and Radiant increase health and energy, and you get those bonuses always of course. The -20 armor from Lieutenant's is most likely local, but the other effects are global. Stonefist would have to be global because which piece of armour it's on couldn't possibly affect you causing knockdown. Bloodstained is global for the same reason. The armor bonus from Tormentor's is local, but the increase in light damage taken is global. I could be wrong on something here, but from what I've read and using common sense, this is what I believe to be correct. :) Oh, and yes, the Rune of Absorption is global. Capcom 16:09, 15 December 2006 (CST)
 * And the +health and +energy effects are global and stacking, and the non-armor insignia effects on Lieutenant's and Bloodstained insignia are non-stacking. I suspect that the effects of Stonefist Insignia are stacking (up to the 3 second cap). -- Gordon Ecker 03:14, 16 December 2006 (CST)
 * Tormentor's armor's Light damage increase is not global, just read the insignia description. And the Bloodstained and Lieutenant's insignia aren't stacking in the way that they are better the more insignias you have, their description do tell that. But they are global. Hexes don't hit a special piece of your armor, therefore the hex duration cant be reduced on just your legs, for example. One piece of Bloodstained or Lieutenant's will give the same effect as three, except the armor reductuion on Lieutenant's, which will indeed stack. &mdash; Stylva  (talk)(contribs) 05:15, 16 December 2006 (CST)
 * Yeah, I meant to type "non-stacking". I know the increased light / holy damage on the non-insignia Tormentor's Armor was global and stacking, and I'm assuming it still is (and that Tormentor's Insignia works the same way), since it's a larger increase on armor pieces that take more hits, but I'm not sure. -- Gordon Ecker 05:36, 16 December 2006 (CST)
 * I didn't know the Tormentor's has always been global and stacking.. Does this mean, if you have all pieces equipped with Tormentor's (except head) you would get a damage increase by 14 always? And not 6 if hit at the chest, 4 if hit at the legs, and so on? &mdash; Stylva  (talk)(contribs) 05:46, 16 December 2006 (CST)
 * Yes, Tormentor's Armor was always global with light damage taken. It makes sense that it would still be that way, because what about some spells that deal light/holy damage and can't hit a specific piece? Capcom 16:21, 16 December 2006 (CST)
 * Never thought about that. I'm not that good at armor and hit locations and so on. :P &mdash; Stylva  (talk)(contribs) 17:22, 16 December 2006 (CST)
 * Oddly, the Tormentor's Armor article says that the penalty's now non-stacking and no longer applies to holy damage, but I'm not sure if this was tested or just presumed based on the description. -- Gordon Ecker 21:42, 16 December 2006 (CST)
 * It also contradicts that information within the same article. :/ Capcom 03:57, 17 December 2006 (CST)
 * The Stonefist Insignias are not stacking as per the "Non-Stacking" description. I'm not sure if the insignia will have any effect on the duration of Gale, as it is already a 3 second duration.  Will have to do some testing.
 * You're right, the article description omitted the non-stacking part. The article's been corrected. -- Gordon Ecker 02:35, 26 January 2007 (CST)

Assassin Campaign Availability is wrong?
Kinda a question: Does that Campaign Availability mean armor with equal stats can be bought in that campaign? Or does it mean that those insignia's are only available to that campaign? Cause I know for a fact I have found at least 3 Vanguard Insignia's in Nightfall, specifically, in Desolation. If need be, next time I run into one, i'll screenshot it. --Mwpeck 21:23, 18 December 2006 (CST)
 * It means that the insignia can be unlocked for PvP or obtained as loot in that campaign, and the Assassin insignia are definitely available as loot in Nightfall. -- Gordon Ecker 23:54, 18 December 2006 (CST)

Lowest observed item rarity for specific Insignia
It's suspected that certain insignia types are only available on gold items. This table is to test that theory. -- Gordon Ecker 00:10, 19 December 2006 (CST)
 * I recall getting Nightstalker's off a purple. And, less clearly, Blessed off a blue. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 04:57, 19 December 2006 (CST)
 * Undertaker's blue. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 04:58, 19 December 2006 (CST)
 * I do loads of runs through Fahranur looking for runes and insignia, I've found most of the ones listed above there. Table updated. The only ones I'm sure I haven't found so far are Stonefist and Bloodstained. --NieA7 05:56, 19 December 2006 (CST)
 * Yeah, I suspect everything except Stonefist, Lieutenant's and Bloodstained is available on blue items. -- Gordon Ecker 05:59, 19 December 2006 (CST)
 * And the current price of Sentinal's Insignia at the trader suggests that it may be gold-only too. -- Gordon Ecker 22:26, 21 January 2007 (CST)
 * I just got deadnoughts off of a blue a day or two ago if you want to add that in there.&#91;&#91;Gandorf]] 15:38, 20 January 2007 (CST)

Bloodstained stacking?
I suppose the answer is no, but do multiple bloodstained insignias stack, ie the first removed 25%, the second 25% from the rest, etc? -- (talk) 19:50, 9 January 2007 (CST)
 * I'm pretty sure it's labeled "Non-stacking" but maybe they removed it or something. Last time I saw one it was non-stancking. -- El Delcroy :D 19:52, 9 January 2007 (CST)
 * Haha, ofcourse. Too simple for me. :D Btw, makin an MM hero is really expensive. 11k for the insignia and 6,5k for a sup DM rune. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 20:02, 9 January 2007 (CST)
 * Pshh, should have skipped consualte armor, brought him to droks, got the bloodstainded boots there. I have a quitely good build on my builds page if ya want it. -- El Delcroy :D 20:15, 9 January 2007 (CST)
 * Oh wait nvm thats MM hero, carry on -- El Delcroy :D 20:15, 9 January 2007 (CST)
 * : D --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 21:15, 9 January 2007 (CST)
 * MMs dont need bloodstained insignias--Coloneh RIP[[Image:Coloneh.png]] 20:13, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

blighter's insignia
blighter's armor states that you get +20 armor while hexed. Blighter's insignia says you get +20 armor while effected bye a hex. Does this mean that i can gain the armor boost if i hex someone with life siphon or life transfer? Deamon Kor 16:13, 15 January 2007 (CST)
 * I'm pretty sure that both mean when someone has cast a hex on you. --Squeg 18:43, 17 January 2007 (CST)

Dictionary Definition
Eh, Why is there a dictionary definition right int he middle here, I realise that there was slight argument between two people before, but I don't think we really need the dictionary definition defining the intricacies of english language plurals right in the middle of the introduction in a different format... El Cerouni 04:15, 20 January 2007 (CST)
 * Yeah you're right. I put that there to replace the previous one by some guy claiming that "insignia" was the only correct plural, whereas in fact it's not. It's not really relevant to Guild Wars though so I'm going to remove it - people can read the arguments here if they want :) — Biscuits (talk [[Image:Biscuit.png]] contribs) 15:35, 20 January 2007 (CST)
 * Actually changed my mind :p. It does actually clear up confusion and prevents anyone from making a similar edit in the future. People that don't care about it can skip it. Or someone else will come along and delete it anyway! — Biscuits (talk [[Image:Biscuit.png]] contribs) 15:35, 20 January 2007 (CST)
 * That's ok with me :P El Cerouni 01:25, 26 January 2007 (CST)

Global Modifiers, Revisited
Hi all. After reading everything I could find, I'm still uncertain about the (non)global effects of magic AL bonuses. Let's say I apply insignia-runes-inscriptions to add +10 AL vs. physical dmg on my helmet and a +10 AL while in a stance on my boots. A year ago, as I understood it, magic AL bonuses like these applied globally. No matter where I took the hit, I received both +10 AL vs. physical dmg. and +10 AL while in a stance. The bonuses behaved exactly like a bonus contained on a shield, focus item, weapon, etc. Now -- if I'm reading the discussions correctly -- some modifiers are global, others are local, and some modifiers nobody really knows for sure? Maybe my comment is just a cry of frustration, and if so, I apologize. Is there a place in the wiki where an authority on the topic clearly lays out -- for dummies like me -- which armor mods are local and which are global? (BTW, I'm grateful for the good work that you regular contributors do here. TYVM.) &mdash; Krissy 14:41, 22 January 2007 (CST)
 * As far as I'm aware all armour modifiers are local. The only "global" insignia are Bloodstained, Lieutenants and Stonefist, as they have non-armour level related properties which simply couldn't be applied on a local-only basis. --NieA7 03:47, 23 January 2007 (CST)

Ah, what a shame. Perfectly logical. Just a shame. &mdash; Krissy 00:59, 24 January 2007 (CST)
 * To clarify, for Lieutenant's the decreased hex duration and decreased attack strength are global while the armor deduction is (unless I'm terribly mistaken) not and only applies to that piece of armour (it's "local"). Tormentor's is also split in that the armor bonus is local, but the increased damage taken is global... or at least it SHOULD be. Apparently some copies are not like this and have it be local according to some people. Capcom 02:34, 2 February 2007 (CST)

Lieutenant's Insignia
Is it just me, or is the Lieutenant's insignia only available on an armor drop - not for sale? I thought it was possible that the only place it's for sale is in Henge of Denravi (since the helm is there), but I don't see it there either. Is there any rune trader that sells it? If not, a note should be put in that section of the table. Krenn 23:04, 3 February 2007 (CST)
 * Traders only resell the items which players have sold to them, so they can run out, for the first few days after the release of Factions the traders were missing many rare materials and even a few common materials. Lieutenant's Insignia are fairly rare, and are believed to only drop on gold items. -- Gordon Ecker 23:27, 3 February 2007 (CST)

Radiant Insignia Missing ?
Did I miss some update or are Radiant Insignia missing now ? No Rune trader in Nightfall nor Prophecies sells those anymore. Can anyone confirm if thats a bug or update, please ? (and update the appropriate section) Shakiko 23:05, 15 February 2007 (CST)
 * That it's missing at the traders doesn't have to mean it's missing in game, they can just be out of supply, as is the case at every new release and so on. If you have one, try to sell it to the trader. If he would accept it, it implies that he knows what it is (it's not gone from game) but just out of supply. &mdash; Stylva  (talk)(contribs) 00:09, 16 February 2007 (CST)
 * They're one of the most popular Insignia types. They're probably just sold out. -- Gordon Ecker 00:10, 16 February 2007 (CST)
 * Does the Radiant Insignia make it possible for Ele's to have the energy bonus? Before the NF update this wasn't possible.System Of A Guild 02:59, 20 February 2007 (CST)
 * Yes, all common insignia (like survivor and radiant etc) can be applied to all NF armors, including elementalist. :) &mdash; Stylva  (talk)(contribs) 03:25, 20 February 2007 (CST)

Dmg Reduce
So if you have Knights armor crafted in elona you can actually add another knights insigna and have -6 on that piece you put it on? - Chrisworld 17:38, 16 February 2007 (CST)
 * You can't craft Knight's armor in Elona. All Elonian armor comes with no inherent bonuses - you make it into Knight's armor by putting the Knight's Insignia on it. Knight's armor from Prophecies or Factions won't accept any insignia. Incidentally, this applies to all types of armor :-) — Biscuits (talk [[Image:Biscuit.png]] contribs) 20:14, 16 February 2007 (CST)

Campaign column
I edited a few things that looked like errors to me. Then I realized I don't actually know what the Campaign Availiablity column is supposed to show. It would help to explain the purpose of the campaign column in the chart. Personally, I am in favor of eliminating it entirely. -- Mr Dan 16:13, 5 March 2007 (CST)
 * It covers PvP availability in Prophecies and Factions, and both PvE and PvP availability in Nightfall. -- Gordon Ecker 20:16, 5 March 2007 (CST)