Talk:Tonic

Perhaps
a gallery ala Miniatures, to show how you'll look under the effect of Tonic X, Y and Z etc. --- -- (s)talkpage  16:53, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps, I just threw this page together so we could stop listing 5 other tonics on every see also section.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]]Entrea  [Talk]  16:59, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Tonic: good? bad? maybe? RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 03:19, 10 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I think it's a good addition, since the Tonic page functions as a sort of Quick Reference for a consumable. A gallery of what each tonic provides seems like it rounds out the page's "at-a-glance" features. What I would like to do is take more standardized photos (in Great Temple of Balthazar due to the natural lighting) and then size them to make the table roughly evened-out visually.


 * However, I'd like some opinions on one thing: should the forms be photoshopped out of their background (eg, like the miniatures page or the profession pages at GWW like Ranger) or left with it intact (like the armor galleries taken on Nameless)? My inclination is to isolate them from the background because it's more visually distinctive and focuses the eye on just the shape and features of the given form, but I think it's important to hear feedback from others before I bother with all that masking. -- AudreyChandler 04:46, 11 April 2009 (UTC)


 * If you take it in front of the neutral background, like the blue water with a little bit of ground, there should be no reason to Photoshop it. So far, the trend on the official wiki was renders made by game devs with white background, while on Wikia it was to keep the backgrounds.  I personally prefer it with the BG, because it looks more natural.  If you are missing tonics, I have 7 different kinds that I would trade 1:1 to possibly complete your standardized gallery.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 07:56, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Instead of photoshopping them out, they can be taken on a white background, like at User:M.mendel/heroes for some. For use in a table, such as a quick reference, I think they look better on white because they are visually more distinctive then. The protraits on the indiviual tonic's pages can stay as they are, with background. -- ◄mendel► 15:34, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Since I have two opposing recommendations (lol), I just went and made some mockups for a few sample images which were taken on fairly good backgrounds. There's the standard with a BG, then masked to white, and then masked to white with a shadow effect added to ground the image. Check them out --> here <--. Y'all tell me which you prefer, and I'll proceed with getting them snapshotted and formatted to polish up the gallery. :D -- AudreyChandler 03:44, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Infinity Symbol
I'd like to see the fact that all of the everlasting tonics have the infinity symbol on them inserted into the article, but I don't know where to put it without it being awkward. Someone mind doing it, or is it just not noteworthy? &mdash; Powersurge360 Violencia  19:50, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I put a note in, doesn't seem all that awkward to me. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 22:43, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I couldn't find a place where it flowed smoothly. Thanks. &mdash; Powersurge360 Violencia  22:50, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

This Months Tonic
Its a "norn tonic". Transforms you into a Norn, a chap in Kamadan was using one. (Forgot to sign) 67.191.121.218 00:20, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * We've already got the articles up over at Boreal Tonic and Everlasting Boreal Tonic. The speed of the wiki sometimes is amazing. Go check em out, if you're interested, they're still a bit incomplete. &mdash; Powersurge360 Violencia  00:21, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Mursaat
Me want Everlasting Mursaat Tonic c'mon people, we all know they'll happen. Though Phantasmal might be better...hm...-->Suicidal Tendencie 13:30, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I vote for Azure Shadow or Smite Crawler tonics. Or how about Ghostly Hero :) [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 14:56, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Stygian Fiend. --Macros 15:22, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Bone Fiend > Stygian Fiend, because Bone Fiends scale by level :D Also, Devourer and Tyrannus. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  15:28, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * "Everlasting Molotov Cocktail" [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 15:31, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Enchanted "weapon" Tonic :O! Want. --77.160.14.220 18:21, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
 * It happened. A Mursaat Tonic. Everlasting Unseen Tonic. &mdash; Balistic 00:06, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
 * This might compete with Phantasmal for best and most popular tonic of all time. I can see zkey prices going up again :) [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 00:20, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Obviously you've never used an Ooze tonic. --Macros 01:31, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

no NavBox
I don't want a NavBox on this page, because Keep the link to it so people can use it to add a new tonic to the navbox. --◄mendel► 03:19, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) it puts the article in the middle of Category:Tonics
 * 2) all the tonics are listed and linked in the table, the navbox just duplicates that info
 * I suppose you're right, but pointing to the template at all is pretty pointless if you have the list and category.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]] Entrea   [Talk]  03:21, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Once a month someone will want to edit the template, no? --◄mendel► 04:50, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I think leave the navbox here, makes it more easily accessible for editing, since it's a pain to guestimate its page name, I just hit edit and copy the inclusion. It also gives people a heads up that this navbox actually exists.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 19:54, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Searing Tonic
Ehm, why is the page from Searing Tonic on the Wiki, but not in this list?
 * Fixed. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 19:51, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Can only be used in a town or outpost
Why do some tonics have that in the description (Searing Tonic for example) and others don't (Transmogrifier Tonic). Which ones can be used outside? Should this be added to the table? RoseOfKali 19:51, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Candy corn and elf are the only ones that can be used outside. Every other tonic can only be used in town. --Macros 19:54, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I just checked that and those are the only two lacking that statement in the description. I was wondering if that was an omission or if that was really true, but I remember elves and candy corn battling titans in the Ring of Fire mission once, so it's accurate.  I wonder why... O_o  I will note this in the article.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 19:57, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * It's because they were the first 2 tonics and Anet didn't care if you used them outside back then. They since discovered that it imbalanced pve by making it hard for the monsters to tell who the monk was, thus making them tab through all the players until they found said monk. The monsters used GWW to bitch at Anet (like everybody else) and it got nerfed. --Macros 20:05, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * LOLWUT? I didn't think your "form" affected how the monsters see you, they always seem to know what skills and weapons you are using from half-compass away. >_< But seriously, I wonder why the did that. O_o Could be so much fun having a full group of the same or varying type of creatures while vanquishing or doing other stuff. :P RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 20:11, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * simple, it means less work for them - Wuhy 15:26, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It seems like more work... They actually had to disable the tonics outside, where the original two (frosty and elf) still can be used. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 19:21, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * No, its more work, they'd have to animate the various cast time/cast target skills and an attack for each weapon type... Disabling something isnt a big deal, and yuletide(elf) and transmogrifier are the 2 tonics that can be used outside not frosty&yuletide, and because they are made for an event not from monsters, they just thrown those into the mesmer&necro skeletons and because mes&nec alrdy can be used in explorable areas(lol), thats why these two can also... Since monsters only have 1 skill/attack animation, they'd have to reanimate them entirely and properly if they want to make tonics from them so thats a lot of time which anet doesnt have so they just simply disable them outside... It'd be cool tho, the reason i havent bought any everlasting tonics yet is this tbh... - Wuhy 15:46, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Interesting, I didn't know that. Frankly, I wouldn't care if the animations are the same for all weapons or w/e, or if the overhead casting symbols appear in your head cus you're too tall.  Being in a tonic is cool enough to live with that. :P And in PvE it doesn't matter how things look to monsters, unlike in PvP.  Plus, they already have all this for Asura (Vekk) and Norn (Jora) sizes/forms, and probably some others, but I guess they just disabled all of them for consistency. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 17:54, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Hopefully..
the last tonic was an asura, the current one is a charr, we had norn before, perhaps one of the next two will let us get a preview of the sylvari? i know a lot of players would love that.. and give us a preview of gw2... its been so long
 * That makes some sense. Using GW1 would be a cool way of releasing new info on GW2. --[[Image:Progger.png]] - talk 15:33, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I would laugh so hard if it was a human tonic.--Łô√ë [[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg|Roar.]]îğá†ħŕášħ 18:36, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Lag glitch
It's possible to have two tonic effects on self, due to lag. Here's a screen: --Rotfl Mao 15:08, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Bone Dragon...Tonic?
So I saw this bone dragon at Seitung Harbor, why isn't it there on the list or did I miss it? (File:Bone_Dragon_tonic.jpg|thumb|right) maybe one of the biggest shapes..? --Crare 21:43, October 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * oh it was Mysterious Tonic. nvm, well now we have picture..
 * last one me again --Crare 21:47, October 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's from Mysterious Tonic. I also requested to delete your image, because it was almost a gig in size, uncompressed, and was a misunderstanding anyway.  In the future, please reduce the size of your images to no more than a few hundred Kb before uploading (ideally under 100Kb), otherwise it makes the pages hard to load for some people with slower connections.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 23:00, October 17, 2009 (UTC)

The new tonics table
I think I preferred the old one better. I find the old version simpler to understand the differences between monthly and true seasonal tonics (e.g. monthly vs. Wintersday), as well as the relationships/differences between getting the regular and everlasting versions of the same form tonic. Right now, there are entries for both normal and everlasting mixed with each other, some in the same entry, others in separate lines or even sections of the table, and it's hard to understand how to get some of the tonics without having to follow their link and trying to read the tonic's article. Thoughts? If there are no objections, I will undo the last change back to the old version of the table. RoseOfKali 10:54, October 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd like a form of compromise, he removed a bunch of text in brackets which just made the page more cluttered, imo
 * If you want to try to clarify the monthly vs. Wintersday stuff that's fine with me, but I do prefer certain changes, such as the cleanup under Zaishen Chest Tonics / Seasonal Zaishen Chest Tonics A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 11:06, October 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with removing some of the text. What do you think about returning to having a separate column for normal and everlasting?  The acquisition column can be shared in the middle: those who are acquired the same way will have one cell, those where normal/everlasting differs will have the cell split.  I will start my idea below, but I know there's something missing, so please help me:

Types and availability

 * I used red X's for images of everlasting Cottontail and Phantasmal, because those don't exist and the redlinks break formatting, defeating the purpose of this example. I will come up with a placeholder for those later (like a gray outline of a flask with a question mark?).  Also, I'm a little not sure about the beetle juice tonic, is the normal version no longer available since the 2007 tournament?  This is my idea so far, but it needs some polish.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 11:37, October 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * Updated: changed up the sections a little bit, added a vertical divider. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 20:30, October 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * Updated: completed the Monthly list. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 21:02, October 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. The old version was far too cluttered, while my version, admittedly, went too far in the opposite direction. I had tried to organize them into 1) tonics that were available only during a certain time frame, but NOT from the zchest, 2) tonics tonics that were available only during a certain time frame, but ONLY from the zchest, and 3) tonics available year-round, regardless of the source. I'm not saying it has to be kept that way, but that was my reasoning. I used the template because it was already there, good at reducing the clutter, and because I'm lazy :P I like the shared center column, but I bet at least one person will wonder "y dusent tis say wher 2 get evrlasting?" --Macros 02:41, October 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, my only real gripe about your version is that normal and everlasting are completely mixed together in more than 1 way (i.e. inconsistent), and there's a huge difference between them, imo, enough to justify that factor being the primary way to split. The layout also made the table longer, so now it doesn't fit on one screen like it used to, making it harder to find what you're looking for.  Another variation on the above version would be splitting off the monthly into its own table and doing them the way you did, and the other two sections into a separate table the way they used to be with 4 columns, clearly separating the El. and normal acquisition, since those sections are the ones with the differences anyway.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 10:30, October 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * Heh, I was thinking of suggesting two tables, but you said it first. But I was going to suggest having one table for regular tonics and the other for everlasting. Something like this:

Only I can't figure out how to get them side-by-side, if it's even possible. Once they're side-by-side, they'll take up less vertical space than any of the previous tables. And because they're separate, there's no "blank" entries for Mysterious or Zaishen everlasting tonics, because you can leave them out entirely. --Macros 18:35, October 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't know how to get two different tables side by side, but yeah, they need to be. I'm going to bed now (well, hoping to), so I'll see what I can whip up tomorrow so that it looks ok. Also, I prefer to keep some kind of "parallel" relationship from normal to everlasting of the same type, since they are still the same form. It almost seems like we're going back to a well cleaned up version of the old table. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 19:23, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

and this?
Thoughts? RoseOfKali 16:20, November 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * I like^^ Good job on trying to display the tonics, the table isn't complicated :) if you know what I mean(well, except when you see what you need to edit Ö) Ofc, I don't really have a purpose for this talk page XD Fleshcrawler   Soban  17:01, November 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * Thx. :) If nobody objects or suggests a change, I will put this in the article soon. And yes, the code looks like a nightmare, but it also shouldn't need any editing, unless there is a new tonic, which doesn't happen often anymore. I tried to do nested tables so that the monthly are in the first cell, and the rest are in the second cell separately, making it easier to edit, but I couldn't get that to work, so I did it the "ugly" way. :P RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 19:27, November 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks great :D --Macros 20:04, November 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * Thx. :D Oh, I'm also thinking of making this into a transclusion, so that all this mess isn't hosted in the article. What's the proper category for this? RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 20:12, November 8, 2009 (UTC)


 * Guh, what's with everyone making the gray header bars inside tables now? Seems like I've seen them everywhere since I came back...  What's wrong with using real headers?  Anyway, here's a solution that isn't nearly as ugly to edit: User:Dr ishmael/toniclist  (sandbox page content copied to Tonic/List) .  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 20:46, November 8, 2009 (UTC)


 * Ooh, bootyful! Ishy saves the day, as always. :D May I ask you to move it properly? And I did the headers because they're everywhere, as you said. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 21:02, November 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, what does this need to unstub? I'll adjust the image gallery to match the list once it's moved there. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 21:16, November 8, 2009 (UTC)


 * Heh, thanks! I do my best. ^_^  But: unstub? o.O  Not sure what you mean by that... unless you're talking about your category question above?  Um... probably Category:Item legend subpages, which I just put on the subpage.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 21:30, November 8, 2009 (UTC)


 * The Tonic page is a stub :P --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  21:38, November 8, 2009 (UTC)


 * Gah, I'm an idiot. -_- Yeah, I don't think there's much more we can add here - de-stubbing.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 22:04, November 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * Question: for the everlasting festival tonics, it says Zaishen Chest (seasonal). Is that correct?  I thought those were always available, and I don't any note like that on GWW.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 22:17, November 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, that I don't know, always thought they were seasonal, but really don't know why. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 01:49, November 9, 2009 (UTC)

New images
I want to retake a new set of images for all tonics, but can't find a good place to do it. I did a few in the Vabbian guild hall, but the only spot with a clear background there has the sun from the back, so the front is shaded. Isle of the Nameless is no good as it has to be in a town. Any suggestions? RoseOfKali 06:38, January 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * Isle of Meditation has a fairly good spot, east of the flag stand. The sky and water are a bit darker than in Nameless, but not that much.  There's a small hump in the ground you can stand on to get a better camera angle.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 15:33, January 12, 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh, naturally, that makes a great spot and I don't have access to that GH. :/ The Ambassador spawns an explorable version, so no go there. I'll try Frozen, I think I found a decent spot there. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 15:04, January 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * Golem Form effect.jpg Had to dodge a few snowflakes, and voila! I think that's not bad. While at it, I could take the time to rename all of them consistently. What do you think, "Xx Tonic effect.jpg" (a few of them are named like that now) or something else? RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 15:16, January 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * I could guest you to our GH if you wanted, although the spot you found works, too. If you used that naming scheme, you'd have multiples for the Mysterious and Zaishen tonics.  "Xx Form effect.jpg" would be more accurate anyway, to match the skill name e.g. Golem Form.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 15:29, January 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * Makes sense. I was thinking of doing like "Archer form" and stuff for the Zaishen anyway. But uh, the skill icons already use that convention like File:Rift Warden Form.jpg (though largely duplicated, so not all of them exist). Hmm... Rift Warden Form effect.jpg? I'd rather not make .jpg vs. .png the only difference.
 * And there's one little peculiar reason you can't guest me. ^_^ So I'll just do it there. If I can dodge snowflakes with a Golem, I think I'll do fine. :D RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 15:47, January 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * That's exactly what I had above, "Xx Form effect.jpg" :P &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 16:14, January 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * Derrrr.... ¬_¬ Will do. :P RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 16:20, January 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Why wouldn't Doc Ish be able to guest you? Jink  16:26, January 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's in a pink userbox somewhere. :) RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 16:59, January 13, 2010 (UTC)