Talk:Elona/Archive

Origins
Is it said anywhere where the Elonians came from? --Trygvebw 00:38, 27 October 2005 (EST)
 * Not yet. We'll find out in a few months, if not sooner. -- Gordon Ecker 18:00, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

Development of the Ascension Rites
One thing that might be noted is that the Elonians probably finished developing the Ascension rites as we know them today. Civilizations before them (such as the Margonites) attempted physical means (building towers) to 'ascend' to the gods. The Thirsty River mission was probably known before the Elonians arrived. (The Margonites built their settlements there.) The Elonians built the Temple of Ascension (Dunes of Despair), and obviously knew about the Vision Crystal (Elona Reach). So, while they didn't achieve Ascension, they did know all of the steps necessary. (Which could explain why it's the Elonians who are our guides through the rituals, even though they weren't the first or even the last to try to Ascend.) --Tometheus 09:53, 27 October 2005 (EST)


 * I disagree. If you go that way then you would have made the same mistake as the Elonians. :) Ascension, I believe is to do great feats that benefit humanity and impress the gods. It is not the actual ritual itself. I think all these steps were known to all those who came. The throne of pelentia and the crystal and all these rituals focus the gaze of the gods upon you, what they see is what you are and what you do. The Ghost (Turai) explains that the final test is in Augury Rock, so he knew that himself. Why was he then building great monuments.
 * Perhaps the throne pf Pellentia was there and they built a temple around it thinking that would grant them favor in the eyes of the Gods. --Karlos 06:55, 28 October 2005 (EST)

Nation of Elonia
Ritual Priest Nahtem's bones (as well as Hehmnut's) in Elona Reach refer to them as the 'nation of Elonia'. (I do realize that other places refer to them as Elona) --Tometheus 06:57, 31 October 2005 (EST)
 * Maybe Turai instituted a name change after their sorry defeat. :) --Karlos 09:18, 1 November 2005 (EST)
 * He seems to have renamed his priest as well :) --Tometheus 02:30, 2 November 2005 (EST)

Does it make sense to conjecture that people from Elona came to the Crystal Desert, and formed the nation Elonia in honor of their origins? I'm not sure where each of the term was used so it may or may not have consistency issues with stuff in the game. - 07:31, 29 May 2006 (CDT)

Conspiracy exposed
Elona backwards is Anole, aka Dune Lizard! &mdash; Stabber (talk) 19:43, 19 April 2006 (CDT)

Speculation
I bet Elona is the central kingdom in Guild Wars Nightfall. The priests do have Egyptian sounding names... 141.151.181.135 07:53, 29 May 2006 (CDT)
 * And what does Egyption sounding names have to do with a registered trade mark that might not be the north-african themed Campaign 3? d-: - 07:57, 29 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Speculation, my dear fellow. If I had solid info, I'd make an article. 141.151.181.135 08:04, 29 May 2006 (CDT)
 * C'mon, PanSola, talking off the record, no matter if it's official, we all know that Nightfall is C3, don't we? ;) --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 08:06, 29 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Actually, I'm firmly convinced that Campaign 3 will be called "Guild Wars Daybreak". q-: The trademark is a consipracy to throw all of you off track. - 08:09, 29 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Now that's just typical for a follower of Lyssa. Fine, believe whatever fiction you please. 141.151.181.135 08:11, 29 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Still, my original point being, you have a double-speculation there. - 08:15, 29 May 2006 (CDT)
 * While it is obviously speculation, and I'm only partway through Factions so far, I did come across an NPC who said he/she was from Elona. Given the way Cantha was introduced in Prophecies, I think it is a reasonable guess. *shrug* Lord Ehzed 10:04, 29 May 2006 (CDT)
 * I agree with you. The point is that there is a subtle difference in speculating Elona being the kingdom for the next Campaign, and in speculating Elona being the kingdom for Guild Wars Nightfall.  What if Nightfall turns out to be the name of Campaign 4?  I mean, Campaign 3 and 4 are done by different teams (staggered apart), Campaign 4's developement JUST started recently, AND the trademark is registered recently.  Perhaps the Four team want to get things registered early, not minding the title gets revealed, whereas the Three team wants to hide it as long as possible (not like anyone else can really claim any "Guild Wars Blah" trademark). - 10:17, 29 May 2006 (CDT)

Ha! I so totally called this. 141.151.187.150 05:03, 30 July 2006 (CDT)

Removing Elona notes..
Ok, the notes were removed because they: I believe both assumptions are clearly false. With regards to the Luxury Goods quest, the mirrors seem to be treated as ornamental things. Meaning that they may have been crafted some time ago and maybe they are made in Elonian style.
 * 1) implied Elona exists in present day Guild Wars.
 * 2) implied that it's location was unknown.

To imply elona is not where we think it is and then to imply that Elonians are alive and well and trading with Canthans requires some proof. --Karlos 10:39, 29 May 2006 (CDT)


 * We have received a shipment of home furnishings ... mirrors, actually, from far off Elona. You can't argue they received the shipment from 200 hundred years ago, while it is possible that they are trading with the dead ghosts in Elona Reach, and that Glass is made of sand, which is abundant in the Crystal Desert, I find it much more likely that there is a living civilization no in Crystal Desert taht's called Elona. *poof* - 10:43, 29 May 2006 (CDT)


 * The presence of the Elonian Key and the Elonian Chest in the desert imply that Elona is IN the desert. I understand the sentence to mean: the mirrors were made in the desert (perhaps by the ghosts), we do know that the Canthans deal with the desert. I don't see where that sentence says: a) Elona is NOT in the desert, and b) Elonians are all alive and well. Those two observations go agains the very well-established observations in Prophecies. --Karlos 11:05, 29 May 2006 (CDT)


 * What about the above claim that there is an NPC who is from Elona? I personally don't know who Lord Ehzed is referring to, but am keen to know. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 11:07, 29 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I'm still interested (in one of the sections above) in the possible hypothesis that the failed desert settlement is called the nation of Elonia, named after the kingdom of Elona where they hail from. Also, I don't consider the Crystal Desert as Elona.  I see all the outposts and the Oasis as consisting of all the ghosts of people who failed in the Desert in the past.  Thus to claim Elona as the desert, or as any part of the desert simply makes no sense to me. - 11:22, 29 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Err, the presence of Elonian Keys and Chests in the desert implies that they are from or related to Elona. Given that they're the relics of the Ghostly Hero and his people, that's hardly a surprise. I take the Crystal Desert stories to mean that, every once in a while, a certain race or nation of people (originally from elsewhere) goes to the Crystal Desert to Ascend. What's never made clear is whether all of the Elonians did this or only some. If the latter is the case, then there is still an Elona populated by Elonians somewhere. If they all went to the Desert and died, then there would still be an Elona around somewhere else; it'd just be abandoned. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 11:58, 29 May 2006 (CDT) )
 * And a shipment from an abondoned place doesn't make much sense, so it is more likely that there is still an Elona populated by Elonians/Elonites/Elonans somewhere. - 12:04, 29 May 2006 (CDT)

I've added the trading part back, because I believe we are all on the same page now regarding Elona's existence in current day Guild Wars, even while we disagree what/where it is. - 14:01, 29 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I just want to say that I agree with PanSola's and 130.58's interpretation of the facts. To me, the Elonian culture temporarily established in the Crystal Desert is just a "colony" of the real Elona, which is located somewhere else. And this Elona homecountry continued to exist after the Crystal Desert colony had perished, until present day. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 14:10, 29 May 2006 (CDT)

All your collective theories about this are unfounded and based on one statement by an official who is depicted as clearly being incompetent. If you play Prophecies alone would you ever assume that Elona was ANYWHERE but in the desert? No. In fact, we know that Canthans trade with the desert from Fangfa Tai's dialog. Maybe the guy is calling the land by its old name (prior to their fall) because trade relations with Tyria had been discontinued for so long; and maybe he's just assuming that Elonian stuff comes from Elona. Finally, as proof, go play the Elona Reach missio. The mission objectives say to awaken the "High Priests of Elona" (not the Elonian High priests) which linguistically makes a BIG difference, because they establish that where they were was "Elona."

However, I have re-written this to give your collective charr doodoo weight in the article itself. I believe it is fair and balanced. However, I will will fight for any attempt to make this theory that Elona exists outside of the desert into anything more than it is, a speculation unfounded in anything even that official's lame remark. --Karlos 00:04, 1 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I don't believe in all this Elona/Elonia business (my hypothesis is that "Elonian" sounds better, so they used it as the adjective form; or, barring that, someone at Anet went on one of their famous typo sprees). I think it is pretty clear that Elona != Crystal Desert, however, as the stories you hear in the desert say that civilizations like the Margonites occasionally come here, attempt Ascension, and fail and die off. It's not that the people living in the desert are all crazy nutbags who want to Ascend: it's that the desert attracts crazy nutbags who want to Ascend from elsewhere (like, y'know, the player characters). I don't think the sands have ever supported a native civilization, other than the Forgotten. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 00:14, 1 June 2006 (CDT) )


 * Actually, even if I just played Prophecies, I would still assume Elona and Margon are somewhere OUTSIDE the Crystal Desert. I can't speak for the others though.  Also, read my proposed theory at the bottom.  It attempts to extablish a rationalization that I *think* can work. The priest can go to Cavalon and die and he would still be a High Priest of Elona, not a High Priest of Luxon/Jade Sea/Cavalon.  "High Priest of Elona" doesn't establish the name of the location where teh guy died.  - 00:23, 1 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Karlos: My theory is not at all based on "one statement by an official who is depicted as clearly being incompetent". Infact I have no clue what official you're talking about. And off course I assumed that Elon(i)a is anywhere but in the desert! We know about at least three peoples who came to the Crystal Desert in the past: The Margonites, the Elonians and the (nameless) "Seekers". My assumption has always been that the first two peoples are named after the place they came from, their homeland! Or, according to your theory, where is Margonia located?
 * As for the chests/keys and some ghosts in the Crystal Desert being called "Elonian", that is no sufficient proof for me. You will probably find many places in Boston being called "Irish", but Ireland is still located on the other side of the Atlantic. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 03:08, 1 June 2006 (CDT)


 * My understanding was always that Elonians and Margonites are "people" not lands. i.e. Elonians may have been Ascalonians, or Krytans for all we care. They may have come from a land called Elona or from Cantha or whatever. They named their kingdom in the Desert Elona and thus they were known as the Elonians. Where they came from? No one knows. To use your own example against you, the seekers were the people, they did not come from Seekerstan. :) --Karlos 07:41, 1 June 2006 (CDT)

Actually, even the Forgotten are not native to the Crystal Desert. I read the Tyrian Lore booklet, and it said the Forgotten once roamed all over, at least until the human population bustled, so they settled in the Crystal Desert, where they thought the humans couldn't follow them.

"Kingdom"
I'm trying to find where Elona is referred to as a "Kingdom". Does anyone know? - 13:07, 29 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I reckon this is an error. Turai Ossa is clearly identified as the leader of the Elonians in the Crystal Desert, and nowhere is he called "King", only "champion". --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 08:16, 1 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Hmm, in the above section Karlos actually put "kingdom" as part of a bold text. I wonder if he found something we missed. - 10:17, 1 June 2006 (CDT)
 * bump* - 11:30, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

"ancient"?
"At least 200 years" is not sufficient to qualify for ancient IMO. At least I don't consider the United States of America to be ancient. Can anyone point me to in-game references where Elona/Elonia is said to be ancient, or something that suggests it? - 14:05, 29 May 2006 (CDT)


 * The entire history of humanity is 1200-1300 years. In game time 200 is pretty ancient. --Karlos 07:36, 1 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I'm going to revise the wording of the first sentence of the article then. It does not contain the context of the ~1300 year history of humanity on the Tyrian continent (Canthan has a longer history), so without the context it is rather misleading.  Lemme figure out how to do it, if noone beats me to it... - 10:19, 1 June 2006 (CDT)


 * It' sancient in Canthan history too, Canthan is like 1500 years. Come on. Look at the ruins. Give it a rest. It's not "incorrect" not "inaccurate" to describe Elona as being an Anceint kingdom. I am sure we have much bigger challenges in the wiki than this. --Karlos 05:58, 2 June 2006 (CDT)


 * No Karlos, you give it a rest. The Romans are the most recent 'ancient' civilisation, and they were around ~2,000 years ago. That means, from the beginning of civilisation (~6,000 years ago) they were one third of the total history ago. 200 years is only two fifteenths of the total age of the GWars civilisation. Sometimes you should just back down, you know? Shandy 06:36, 2 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Humans have not been on Earth for 6,000 years, or are you throwing a literal Bible number at me? Humans on Tyria started 200 BE (never existed there before). To use your analogy, if humans on earth have been around since for 200,000 years (see here) and the Romans (according to you) are "ancient" then I would think anything older than 1% total history would be ancient). i.e. anything older than 12 years. :) --Karlos 09:20, 2 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I hereby extend the "Please, stop it!" appeal from the section below to this section. ;) C'mon, you're not going to maul eachother over a single word, are you? Replace "ancient" with a sligtly different thesaurus term that doesn't imply quite such a long time, like for example "lost", "perished", "erstwhile", "of the past" or similar. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 10:06, 2 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Sure it was a stupid argument. Just to clarify, I was stating that 6,000 years value as the start of civilisation (an arguable number), not the start of the human species. - Shandy, not logged in.

God damnit, there. I fixed the "ancient" thing.

Resolution of Elona vs Elonia
Ok, so here is my proposed theory:

Turai Ossa and his people came from the Kingdom of Elona, and went to the Crystal Desearch to attempt Ascension. Turai Ossa was a Champion of Elona, and his generals and high priests were also generals and high priests of Elona, respectively. After arriving in the Crystal Desert, they established the Nation of Elonia, in honor of their homeland. Thus they are Elonians, and that makes Priest Hehmnut "the eldest of the high priests of Elonia". When they got wiped out, "the nation of Elonia was no more", but the Kingdom of Elona stands to this day.

Please criticize using in-game text. I am already aware there is one other case of spelling inconsistency regarding the Elonians (Kahdat vs Khadat), and this Elona vs Elonia business could simply be another spelling mistake. What I am seeking here is direct contradictions to the above theory. - 15:07, 29 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I will criticize with what I see as proper arguments. You did not present any game text for your theory:
 * The Margonites and the Seekers are names of people. With regards to Margonites: Semites, Hetites, Kanaanites were all people, not lands. The lands were named after the people (in the case of the land of Kanaan), not the other way around. The Margonites may well have been the "Luxons" 1000 years ago, a seafaring people who sailed to the desert.
 * Which brings up number 2: Luxons don't live in Luxonia and Kurzicks don't live Kurzickburg, why should the Margonites come from "Margonia"?
 * Why are you assuming the Elonians are named after a remote homeland? They named their desert kingdom the kingdom of Elona (whatever "Elona" means) and thus they were known as the Elonians. To say they were called Elonians before coming to the desert is to make a speculation that is not there in the game. Think about this for a moment. There is no labeling of these people as Elonians OUTSIDE of Elona that's in the desert. The only possible reference is that of the wacky guy in the quest.
 * If you took a vote, 9 people out of 10 (presumptious, I know) will tell you that Elonia is probably a typo for Elona. :)
 * There is no mention of an Elona that stands till today anywhere in the game. Again, the one lame reference in the quest is EASILY countered by the CLEAR reference in Amnoon Oasis of the Canthan merhcant Fanga Tai who clearly establishes that Cantha deals with the desert (yes, with its ghosts).
 * --Karlos 07:51, 1 June 2006 (CDT)


 * So basically, the only criticizable points are lack of support, not the existence of contradictions? Thanks. - 08:40, 1 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Why hijack my criticsm and rewrite it? Point number one says, assuming Elonians are named after a far away land contradicts the other two people who came to the desert. Why ask for criticism if you're not going to read it? :) --Karlos 09:06, 1 June 2006 (CDT)
 * I reread your point 1 and I still don't understand how it translated to "assuming Elonians are named after a far away land contradicts the other two people who came to the desert". Besides, not once am I using "Elona" / "Elonia" as name of the land, only name of the nation.  The Kurzicks can take over Levithan Pits, then some Kurzick may live there and produce a piece of artwork, sell it to a Canthan noble, and it would be a Kurzick artwork from the Kurzick nation, so I don't see what does the name of the land has anything to do with anything.  The lack of support, and the possibility of alternative explainations, do not constitute direct contradictions, which is what I originally asked for in this thread (as opposed to general criticisms).  If you still think you have a direct contadiction that I still don't see existing, it would be helpful if you can explicitly elaborate furthur, thanks.  - 10:13, 1 June 2006 (CDT)


 * This is ridiculous:
 * Turai Ossa and his people came from the Kingdom of Elona, and went to the Crystal Desearch to attempt Ascension. Turai Ossa was a Champion of Elona, and his generals and high priests were also generals and high priests of Elona, respectively. After arriving in the Crystal Desert, they established the Nation of Elonia, in honor of their homeland.
 * Does that not mean you are saying Elona is their "homeland" the land they came from? --Karlos 02:12, 2 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Please, stop it! ( This goes for the "Resolution of Elona vs Elonia" section as well as the "Removing Elona notes.." section. )
 * Let me try to be the voice of reason for once. I see this turning into one of those arguments that I'd like to avoid on this wiki. :(
 * I don't see any way this whole dispute can be settled without some compelling ingame proof. And since neither side can present such proof it would be best to let it slide and forget about it. IMO Karlos has done a good job rewriting the article such that it reflects both possible interpretations. Leave the article (and the discussion) alone, except the correction of (undisputed) errors, okay? --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 03:12, 2 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I agree with TetrisL. This discussion has clearly become counter-productive, if it was ever productive.  --JoDiamonds 14:03, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

I believe I've seen a mention that the Crystal Desert is a wasteland IN Elona, so the Desert formally is a part of Elona, but only a part; I don't remember where it was - Lavvaran 09:11, 4 July 2006 (CDT)
 * QED - Acolyte Norge - Lavvaran 09:16, 4 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I think you're thinking of the Dragon Festival NPC Acolyte Norge. Lord Ehzed 09:10, 5 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Blah, yeah, that is making things even more confusing, since the Elonians did not have first nor last claim to Cyrstal Desert colonization... - 13:15, 5 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Not the last? Who was after them? - Lavvaran 17:52, 5 July 2006 (CDT)
 * At least two of the Bleached bones'. They could've been part of the same group, and it is said (though I'm not sure why) that they are the Seekers.  - 18:08, 5 July 2006 (CDT)

Elona is the stage for Campaign 3
According to the lastest official press release the Paragon, one of the two new professions of C3, is the "guardian angel of the Elonian people". Looks like some of us were guessing correctly and Elona is the stage for Nightfall. :) -- 10:10, 18 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Based on today's press release, I see two possibilities.
 * Elonian civilisation originated elsewhere and Turai Ossa's group was an offshoot. It's possible that some kind of schism (probably a religious schism regardeng Ascension, we know Turai Ossa's group itself split into at least three factions) caused Turai Ossa's group to no longer consider the Nightfall Elonians to be 'true' Elonians. It's also possible that Turai Ossa's group were refugees, and that their homeland was conquered and absorbed into some larger nation, making the Crystal Desert Elonians the only 'Nation of Elona' that existed at the time, with the Nightfall Elonians regaining their independance at some point between the time of Turai Ossa and the modern era.
 * Elonian civilisation originated in the (presumedly more habitable) Crystal Desert, possibly as an offshoot of the neighboring Orrians and / or Ascalonians, possibly as descendants of the Margonites. At some point, Elonian colonists or refugees founded a colony on the Nightfall continent, which, after the fall of the Crystal Desert Elonians, became the only Elonian civilisation, and, over time, came to be referred to simply as Elona.
 * -- Gordon Ecker 10:29, 18 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Further speculation and discussion makes little sense at this point. I hope it won't be long until we get some answers to these questions from ANet. Patience! --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 10:35, 18 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Um, regarding the second bullet point, We KNOW Turai Ossa lead his people to the Crystal Desert, and he fought in wars before coming to the Crystal Desert. I still hold for the possibility that the Turai's group was named the Kingdom of Elonia, named after where they come from.  OR, considering we have Tyria the World vs Tyria the Continent, Cantha the Continent vs Cantha the Nation, there is no need for the Elona in "guardian of the Elonian people" be the same as the Elona of Turai Ossa.  Myabe this time we will downgrade to Elona the Nation vs Elona the City (though Ascalon kind of already did that). - 11:55, 18 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Maybe originated was the wrong word, I probably should've gone with founded. They didn't necessarily consider themselves Elonians before Turai Ossa's time. Maybe Turai Ossa and his followers marched from Arah or Rin or Lion's Arch to the Crystal Desert, built a town called Elona (probably in Elona Reach) and then his people started calling themselves the Elonians. My point was that Crystal Desert Elonians could've been the first Elonians, with the Nightfall Elonians descending from them, and that there's several interpretations for "the nation of Elona was no more" that are consistent with what we know. Maybe in Turai Ossa's time, the Elonian people were mostly loosely organised nomadic herders and / or traders, with the other cultures of their home continent building cities and forming kingdoms. It's also possible that the original Elona was between Ascalon and the Crystal Desert, with the Tomb of the Primeval Kings at the southern edge of their kingdom (someone had to build it, and all the ghosts wear the same style of armour as Turai Ossa), with their homeland becoming uninhabitable (and possibly splitting them into the Crystal Desert faction and the Nightfall faction) due to climate change, a natural disaster, an invasion by monsters or a magical catastrophe, forcing the refugees to settle in the new Elona of Nightfall. -- Gordon Ecker 17:57, 19 July 2006 (CDT)