GuildWiki talk:Style and formatting/Skills/Skill box

Starting The Vote Over
Because I am the dictator of 1/3 of my brain (1/6 of my brain recently obtained democratic independence, while 1/2 of my brain has been demonically possessed for quite a while now), I am once again calling off the proposed deadline for the skill box vote.

New Decision Process
Format is Majority rule w/ instant run-off.


 * 1) Idea Proposition Period.  Starts today, now, and will end 7 days after the last comment/suggestion/change was made to any one of the proposals.  Trivial comments/discussions or extremely minor changes may be ignored for the purpose of ending the idea proposition period, unless there is disagreement on whether a comment/dicsussion/change is trivial/minor.  While people may prevote during this period, they are encouraged to check the proposals again when the proposition period ends.
 * 2) Voting Period.  Lasts 7 days.  Starts when Idea Proposition Period ends.  During this time, only minor changes may be made to the proposals.

Major Ideas after the Proposition Period
If you have any brand new design after the voting period has started, it has to wait and cannot enter the vote. After a new format has been decided, you have several ways to get yoru brand new design in.
 * 1) You may choose to argue that your skill box is simply vastly superior to previously chosen one, and call for a vote to overturn the previous decision.  A 2/3 vote is needed.
 * 2) You may choose to appeal to the people that the previously chosen skill box has flaws and needs to be replaced.  A 2/3 vote is needed to agree to ditch the previous voted decision.  Afterwards you only need a simple majority vote to get your design in.  This process might seem harder at first, but you can gather votes of people who don't like your design, but also don't like the existing design to win the first 2/3 part, and then it's easier to have your design win the 1/2 part.
 * 3) Break your brand new design into tiny design components/features.  Introduce them slowly and gently into the previously voted format, slowly infesting and taking over.  No voting are needed unless someone take the initiative to call for a revert of a component you introduced (which would be a majority vote).  And even if one component is rejected by the majority, the rest of your designs might still get through.  Sneaky evolution vs drastic revolution.

Rules for Proposals
Propals must have the following:
 * A Name/Label for identification purposes.
 * General description of main design principles/features.
 * A direct link to a page where the syntax of the template is specified in pre /pre tags.
 * Direct links to full skill article pages using the proposal for the following skills:
 * 1) Unyielding Aura (unless a skill with longer description and a skill with upkeep are used)
 * 2) Glyph of Elemental Power (unless a skill with longer name is used)
 * 3) Rush (unless a skill with shorter description, a skill with shorter name, and a skill using adrenaline are used)
 * 4) Call of Protection (unless a skill with longer recharge is used)
 * 5) Offering of Blood
 * 6) Any skill from the Wilderness Survival line (suggest Troll Unguent, but not required)
 * A direct link to a quick reference list using include on all the above articles in the same list. Direct template calling is disallowed.  This is to simulate how quick reference lists will really look like.  Additional skills may be included if desired.


 * If you have deletion, modification, or addition to the above set of rules, please post in the discussion section below.

You may propose a template that other people have created but decided not to propose. In which case, it is your responsibility to make sure the template conform to the rules above.

The Proposals
(All the old stuff can be found in ../Archive 4 and ../Archive 5, feel free to dig them out as-is and use them as proposals)

Landscape v4
Proposal status: Rule Compliant

Features:
 * Consistent look for skill article and quick reference
 * Similarity with in-game Skill Menu layout
 * 800x600 Friendly
 * Simple & small syntax, including "Plain English" to mark elite status.

Previews:
 * 1) User:PanSola/Unyielding Aura L4
 * 2) User:PanSola/Glyph of Elemental Power L4
 * 3) User:PanSola/Rush L4
 * 4) User:PanSola/Call of Protection L4
 * 5) User:PanSola/Offering of Blood L4
 * 6) User:PanSola/Troll Unguent L4
 * User:PanSola/Landscape 4 List and Syntax

Skuld's easy syntax
Proposal status: Rules Compliant

Features:
 * "plain english" code

Preview:
 * 1) User:Skuld/Skill_box/Unyielding Aura
 * 2) User:Skuld/Skill_box/Glyph of Elemental Power
 * 3) User:Skuld/Skill_box/Rush
 * 4) User:Skuld/Skill_box/Call of Protection
 * 5) User:Skuld/Skill_box/Offering of Blood
 * 6) User:Skuld/Skill_box/Troll Unguent
 * User:Skuld/Skill_box/List and Syntax

Hybrid 3
Proposal status: Rule Compliant

This is a hybrid of portrait3 for skill article and landscape v5 for quick reference list.

Landscabve v5 is a tiny modification to the Landscape v4 above.

Portrait3 Features:
 * Since description is part of the box, not point in making it float right. Non-floating eliminates any possible overlapping with prograssion table.
 * Decreased vertical space-occupancy by making skill stats a column next to skill categorization.

Preview:
 * 1) User:PanSola/Unyielding AuraP3
 * 2) User:PanSola/Glyph of Elemental PowerP3
 * 3) User:PanSola/RushP3
 * 4) User:PanSola/Call of ProtectionP3
 * 5) User:PanSola/Offering of BloodP3
 * 6) User:PanSola/Troll UnguentP3
 * User:PanSola/Hybrid 3 List and Syntax

Hybrid 4b
Proposal status: Rule Compliant

This is a hybrid of portrait6 for skill article and landscape v5 for quick reference list.

Landscabve v5 is a tiny modification to the Landscape v4 above.

Portrait 4b Features:
 * full page width, splits into two columns, with Icon and skill description taking up the center, and skill categorization/details on the right side.
 * no floating means no potential weird gaps to avoid collision with progression table.

Preview:
 * 1) User:PanSola/Unyielding AuraP4b
 * 2) User:PanSola/Glyph of Elemental PowerP4b
 * 3) User:PanSola/RushP4b
 * 4) User:PanSola/Call of ProtectionP4b
 * 5) User:PanSola/Offering of BloodP4b
 * 6) User:PanSola/Troll UnguentP4b
 * User:PanSola/Hybrid 4b List and Syntax

Hybrid 5
Proposal status: Rule Compliant

This is a hybrid of portrait6 for skill article and landscape v5 for quick reference list.

Landscabve v5 is a tiny modification to the Landscape v4 above.

Portrait 5 Features: Preview:
 * Description part of the article text instead of the box
 * float right box next to description
 * Full-size profession icons
 * 1) User:PanSola/Unyielding AuraP5
 * 2) User:PanSola/Glyph of Elemental PowerP5
 * 3) User:PanSola/RushP5
 * 4) User:PanSola/Call of ProtectionP5
 * 5) User:PanSola/Offering of BloodP5
 * 6) User:PanSola/Troll UnguentP5
 * User:PanSola/Hybrid 5 List and Syntax

Hybrid 6
Proposal status: Rule Compliant

This is a hybrid of portrait6 for skill article and landscape v5 for quick reference list.

Landscabve v5 is a tiny modification to the Landscape v4 above.

Portrait 6 Features: Preview:
 * Description part of the article text instead of the box
 * float-right box next to description
 * Full-size profession icons
 * more compact design for the box
 * 1) User:PanSola/Unyielding AuraP6
 * 2) User:PanSola/Glyph of Elemental PowerP6
 * 3) User:PanSola/RushP6
 * 4) User:PanSola/Call of ProtectionP6
 * 5) User:PanSola/Offering of BloodP6
 * 6) User:PanSola/Troll UnguentP6
 * User:PanSola/Hybrid 6 List and Syntax

Cloak of Letters's Most Certainly the Best Skill List You've Ever Seen Skill Box, or COLMCTBSLYESSB for Short, Featuring "Why Didn't I Think of That Before" Technologies
Proposal status: a minor coloring/bolding variant of Landscape 5

This is an alternative to the various landscape formats above. The skill list/skill box division seems like a good idea even though I'll never read a skill's stats on the skill's page.

Features:
 * Divided cost and cost icons into their own cells and used a fixed width of 1 for all of them. This never takes more room than it needs and never double lines. This was a big problem when we were working on skill lists the first time around.
 * Percentage width on the skill's deck and fixed width on the edit link so they don't take more than they need in narrow windows.
 * No ugly background colors and HTML borders.
 * No stupid extra bolding and links.
 * Wilderness Survival still wraps at 800 pixels.
 * Very long name.
 * I'll probably never look at lists made from this so my vote doesn’t really count.

Demo:
 * User:Cloak of Letters

The Votes
Voters are advised to consider how the proposals look at 800x600 resolution.


 * 


 * 
 * Xeeron


 * 


 * 


 * 


 * 


 * 
 * Xeeron

Related Voters

 * Pan Sola (previous votes were: landscape v4 > Hybrd4b > Hybrid 4 > Hybrid6 > Hybrid 5 > Hybrid3)
 * Xeeron (previous were landscape v4 = skuld easy = hybrid 4b
 * Rainith (previous vote was landscape v4)
 * Dinosaur Planet (previous vote was landscape v4)
 * Bishop (previous vote was skuld easy)
 * Barek (previous votes were: Hybrid 4b > Hybrid 4 > Hybrid6> Skuld's)
 * Evil_Greven (previous votes were: Hybrid 6 > Hybrid5)
 * LordBiro (previous vote was Hybrid 6)


 * User:Theeth
 * User:Tetris L
 * User:TheSpectator
 * User:LordKestrel
 * User:130.58
 * User:Novalith
 * User:Cloud
 * User:JoDiamonds
 * User:Evan The Cursed
 * Karlos
 * 161.88.255.140

Meta-stuff regarding the decision process

 * Trying to make things absolutely clear: Exactly where are these skill boxes intended to show up?  In short, what exactly are people voting on?  (This probably belongs near the top of the page!)
 * Presuming these boxes will be on actual skill pages, can we get a single example of an entire skill page for each suggestion? (Presumably relatively easy, since the page can be copied and the skill box can be included in one location.)  The skill page itself seems like the most important place where these skills will be.  --JoDiamonds 02:00, 22 March 2006 (CST)


 * That's one of the rules... check out the Preview: section under each of PanSola's proposals. The Hybrid format PanSola is using has a different format for the actual Skill Listings such as what would be on Warrior Skills Quick Reference, which is also exampled there. - Greven 03:50, 22 March 2006 (CST)

Hybrid 6 Discussion
I've been looking over the code for Hybrid 6, as it is currently my favoured proposal. I feel quite strongly that the images for the skills details (such as Upkeep, Energy, Recharge Time) should not contain such details description. Simply saying "Energy" would be better in my opinion, since the user can look at the skill box, and if he mouses over the image he can see that the number refers to Energy. Currently the long description is actually a little counter-productive. What do you think? 21:09, 21 March 2006 (CST)


 * I actually think the longer description is needed if there is to be any mouseover at all. Formerly, there were links that described what each detail did... by removing those, a longer description was needed. - Greven 03:47, 22 March 2006 (CST)


 * If they just described what the image meant this would also be fine, but I think less correct. Let me try and give an example.


 * Using a text browser (lynx to be precise) on User:PanSola/Unyielding_AuraP6 to simulate a text reader as closely as possible, the result at present looks like this:

Unyielding Aura Image:Unyielding Aura.jpg Campaign   Prophecies image:Monk-icon.png Profession: Monk Attribute: Divine Favor Type:      Elite Enchantment -1 This skill has unlimited duration, but while remains in effect you have -1 energy regeneration. 5 ''This skill costs 5 Energy to use. You cannot use this skill if you do not have enough Energy.'' 3 This skill takes 3 seconds to activate. 45 Once activated, this skill will be disabled for 45 seconds.


 * Please note, I have italicised the text myself, there is no visible difference in the text browser between the text in the alt attribute of the image tag and the text from the rest of the entry. This is, as far as I'm aware, the intentional behaviour of the text browser. The alt attribute should contain a textual representation of the image and nothing more. If I have an emoticon for a smiley face, the correct value for the alt attribute would be ":)". It would not be "a picture of a smiley face" or even "happy face".


 * For the same reason I believe the icons should use the alt property to describe exactly what their textual representation would be, not a detailed description of what they actually are.

Unyielding Aura Image:Unyielding Aura.jpg Campaign   Prophecies image:Monk-icon.png Profession: Monk Attribute: Divine Favor Type:      Elite Enchantment -1 Energy regeneration 5 Energy 3 Activation Time 45 Recharge Time


 * In my opinion the second option makes a lot more sense. For semantic reasons especially, the image does not represent "This skill has limited duration..." it represents "energy regeneration". If you think there should be a longer description somewhere in the skill box, then fair enough, but I urge you not to put it in the alt property for the image. 04:06, 22 March 2006 (CST)
 * Biro, I think the only reason you see them on multiple lines was because they are so long. If they became shorter, then I expected them to all be on the same line which was part of what you used to complain about.  Originally without mouse overs you get to see the "Energy.png" etc didn't you?  I'll change the Energy to be shorter and see how it works out. -SolaPan 08:09, 22 March 2006 (CST)
 * Energy and Activation modified. Haven't changed anything else yet.  Lemme know how it look. -SolaPan 08:12, 22 March 2006 (CST)


 * No, I think the alternate text (the mouseover, as you call it) should be "Energy" not "5 Energy". I get the impression that you've missed my point. I don't know what you mean by seeing them on multiple lines. I am not complaining about them being on multiple lines :) The fact is the box has to look good (this only applies to a visual browser really) and make sense. As long as it makes sense it will look good in a text browser.


 * The reason it should be "Energy" and not "5 Energy" is because there is a 5 before the icon. If you were to use "5 Energy" as the alt text then the text browser would show this:

5 5 Energy


 * Which doesn't make much sense :) 17:41, 22 March 2006 (CST)


 * I have created a copy of your template and put it in my user space to create a demo at User:LordBiro/Unyielding_AuraP6.2. The template is at User:LordBiro/Skill_box_portrait6.


 * Below is a comparison of your hybrid 6 box and mine. Where before I altered the format to show which text was from an image and which text was from the rest of the skill, below I will not.


 * PanSola's

Unyielding Aura Image:Unyielding Aura.jpg Campaign   Prophecies image:Monk-icon.png Profession: Monk Attribute: Divine Favor Type:      Elite Enchantment -1 This skill has unlimited duration, but while remains in effect you have -1 energy regeneration. 5 5 Energy 3 3 Activation 45 Once activated, this skill will be disabled for 45 seconds.


 * LordBiro's

Unyielding Aura Image:Unyielding Aura.jpg Campaign   Prophecies image:Monk-icon.png Profession: Monk Attribute: Divine Favor Type:      Elite Enchantment -1 Upkeep 5 Energy 3 Activation 45 Recharge


 * Well your version still has the same old confusion that you used to complain about against the old Hybrid 2. At least I don't see much difference in confusion between:

-1 image:Upkeep.png 5 image:Energy.png 3 image:Activation.png 45 image:Recharge.png
 * vs

-1 Upkeep 5 Energy 3 Activation 45 Recharge
 * I'm going to do more editing on my alt-text, make them more concise. -SolaPan 18:04, 22 March 2006 (CST)
 * Shorter version up now. -SolaPan 18:10, 22 March 2006 (CST)


 * I'm sorry if my comments have been confusing. I did and do think that making use of the alt text was an improvement. Let me explain more clearly what my thinking is.


 * The most important consideration for me is that the skill box is semantically correct. If it is semantically correct then it should display correctly to those with visual imparements or those using a text browser.
 * Secondly it should convey as much information as possible in as small a space as possible, and preferably look good :)
 * Thirdly it shouldn't be confusing to people who don't know what the icons represent and are new to Guild Wars.


 * Making use of the alt text is a good way to reduce the amount of space taken up while still maintaining information for the reader. However the [[Image:Energy.png]] image does not represent "5 Energy". Nor does it represent "This skill costs 5 Energy". For this reason these using these sentences as alt text would be semantically incorrect. It does represent "Energy". For the first point (semantic correctness) the only suitable alt text, in my opinion, is "Energy". To reiterate, the [[Image:Energy.png]] does not represent any amount of Energy, and so including any amount within the mouseover text is wrong.


 * When I don't understand what an image represents I usually put my mouse over it to read the alt text. For this purpose, while the use of alt text is not as helpful as a link to the skill details article, it is more helpful than not providing any information.


 * I've thought about this a lot, and I think this is my final opinion on the matter. I hope you see what I mean PanSola, I don't think my thoughts here conflict with my thoughts on Hybrid 2, but I'm sorry if my comments have not conveyed that properly. 19:20, 22 March 2006 (CST)
 * Thanks, I see your point (-: -SolaPan 19:39, 22 March 2006 (CST)
 * There, I kept a period at the end of the alt text, not sure if that is semantically correct or not, but if it's not, hopefully it's sufficiently trivial compared to its merits (text reader should now show "-1 Upkeep. 5 Energy. 3 Activation. 45 Recharge." which is slightly more clear, I hope. -SolaPan 19:52, 22 March 2006 (CST)


 * Yes! I like that! As you say, it might not be 100% correct, but the whole point of the alt text is to make things clear to people who can't see images, and in this respect it works fine, more clear than if the period wasn't there :) Ok, I think I can safely vote for the Hybrid 6 design now ;) I'll wait til the end of the comment period first though! 20:11, 22 March 2006 (CST)

Syntax Poll
The structure of the vote is mostly geared towards the layout, IMHO. However, it is completely possible to use Skuld's layout with my syntax, and vice versa. So here's a poll on which syntax people like better:


 * PanSola's syntax (used for landscape v4 and all the hybrids)
 * 1) PanSola


 * Skuld's syntax (used for Skuld's easy syntax proposal)
 * Xeeron (much easier to understand)


 * don't care, they are both functional - just document it and make it consistent whichever is used.
 * 1) 161.88.255.140
 * 2) Rainith

I'd like my layout, but don't mind which syntax 03:03, 23 March 2006 (CST)

Kill them all I say!
Okay, I just spent 20 minutes trying to fully capture what is going on. I assume that I failed because I can't see why we even need to change the skill box? I looked at the proposed ideas and I don't like any of them more than the current good-old right side hanging skill box, chique and tres manifique!

The Landscape design makes the page look like one big chunk of text. Making the page look uglier just to have a uniform look with tabular data form does not seem like a sound argument to me.

The hybrid ones are all too bulky. The present skill box is slick but those boxes are too wide, and placing them at the top of the page makes the page look uneven.

So, all that remains for me is to understand why exactly are we trying to re-invent the skill box? If the entire issue is caused by the bulky progression tables, then that can be solved very easily... Move the progression tables below acquisition. Or simply, use smaller font and spacing in those tables. --Karlos 04:52, 23 March 2006 (CST)


 * You're even more late than Lord Biro and his excuse was he wasn't back yet when it started....
 * See GuildWiki talk:Style and formatting/Skills/Archive 4
 * --Rainith 06:00, 23 March 2006 (CST)


 * Well it really started from GuildWiki talk:Style and formatting/Skills/Archive 4. Redundency ins skill quick references was what original sparked Tetris's interest in keeping things together.  I added teh progression table conflict as a secondary reason. -SolaPan 08:00, 23 March 2006 (CST)


 * As an additional comment, had there not been a vote which lasted 14 days, probably even less people would have noticed this issue and pitched in their voice. And the whole thing probably would've reached a "consensus" with even less people knowing about it. -SolaPan 08:03, 23 March 2006 (CST)


 * BTW, when you complained all the hybrids are too bulky, did you take a look at hybrid 6, or did you give up before getting there? It actually takes up less space (horizontally AND vertically) than the current skill box being used. -SolaPan 08:08, 23 March 2006 (CST)


 * Hi Karlos! Yeah, I came in late too, and I'm still not 100% sure why this change is taking place... but I'm 90% sure, and that's good enough. :P I said myself on the GuildWiki talk:Style and formatting/Skills page that I don't think a new skill box is entirely necessary, but if someone else is willing to do the work, and if the new template doesn't look any worse than the current skill template (I currently think Hybrid 6 looks as good if not better than some instances of the skill box), AND if the new template reduces redundancy, then I'm ok with it. That probably doesn't help at all, but I'm just going along with it and enjoying the ride. It's awesome stuff Karlos. Like cake. 08:19, 23 March 2006 (CST)


 * Hybrid 6 would be nicer than the present skill box if users could click on those dinky little icons and get taken to the corresponding Adrenaline/Energy/Upkeep/Sacrifice article. But since we can't link off of images, the spelled out version (the existing skill box) is better. Hybrid 6 would be my vote if I was voting. but I am not voting. I am against this vote to begin with. I am a cranky old contributer who likes Old School. :) --Karlos 20:18, 28 March 2006 (CST)


 * Lol, ok Karlos. I too thought it would be useful if the images could link to the articles, rather than the image pages.


 * PanSola, is there any way that you could include a "Skill details" link in a row above the icons? At least then people could go to Skill details to find out what the icons meant. 02:10, 29 March 2006 (CST)
 * Linking from icons to articles have been implemented. Awaiting feedback to see how it looks on text-only browser. -SolaPan 02:20, 4 April 2006 (CDT)


 * The extra cell and the align's really mess up the format in a text browser. I don't know if it's worthwhile. I really liked the way Hybrid 6 looked and worked... Here is a copy and paste:

Unyielding Aura Image:Unyielding Aura.jpg Campaign   Prophecies image:Monk-icon.png Profession: Monk Attribute: Divine Favor Type:      Elite Enchantment -1

Upkeep. 5

Energy. 3

Activation. 45

Recharge.
 * I think it's pretty hard to tell that it actually means -1 Upkeep and 5 Energy. Is there no way that the number (i.e. -1) and the skill detail (i.e. Upkeep) could both be in the same cell, like before? If not, then I'm not sure that this should be Hybrid #6 any more, and perhaps Hybrid #7? 18:27, 4 April 2006 (CDT)


 * P.S. For my own purposes I want to keep a track of what changed.
 * The problem isn't with the different cells and aligns I think, since in all other cases table entries of the same row show up on the same line regardless of being in the same cell or not. The problem is with the usage of three divs by the icon (which is in the icon templates, so you didn't see it with the diff), which created 3 line breaks.  I have adjusted stuff a little, see if it looks better now. -SolaPan 19:18, 4 April 2006 (CDT)


 * Now it looks a little weird :P

Unyielding Aura Image:Unyielding Aura.jpg Campaign   Prophecies image:Monk-icon.png Profession: Monk Attribute: Divine Favor Type:      Elite Enchantment -1                                                                    Upkeep.

5  Energy.

3  Activation.

45  Recharge. I guess that "Upkeep" cell is center aligned. If it wasn't it would look fine. 02:28, 5 April 2006 (CDT)


 * Not to stick my neck out where it doesn't belong, but should we really care what it looks like in a text browser? I know personally the last time I used one (lynx I think) was over 10 years ago and I was connected at 2400 baud.  --Rainith 02:41, 5 April 2006 (CDT)
 * My personal opinion is neutral. There might be someone who is looking up stuff on guildwiki from work or what not.  I do find 800x600 compatibility a more important issue.  Within reasonable efforts, I don't mind making things work with text-only browsers, and if someone else on guildwiki is expressedly concerned about text-only browser compatibility, I will definitely respect that. -SolaPan 03:14, 5 April 2006 (CDT)
 * The "Upkeep" cell is left aligned. I have no clue why it looks different from the others. -SolaPan 03:14, 5 April 2006 (CDT)


 * The reason I think that the way a page renders in a text-browser is important is that if it looks ok in a text browser then it's probably going to be read properly by a screen reader. I don't think there are going to be many partially sighted people looking at the wiki, but if there are I certainly don't want to exclude them.


 * Despite the stangely positioned "Upkeep" I think this template will still be ok. In my opinion it's better that images link to articles than it is to have upkeep aligned properly in the text browser. Good work so far PanSola :) 04:27, 5 April 2006 (CDT)

What is the status of this project?
Most importantly, when do all the votes end? 13:06, 24 March 2006 (CST)
 * The vote will begin 7 days after the last major comment or change to any one of the proposals is made. 7 days after the vote begin, the vote ends. -SolaPan 13:08, 24 March 2006 (CST)