Talk:Scam

Scammers List
Does anyone else think this isn't wise? I know User:DragonWR12LB has good intentions but this could severly be abused by people as the Wiki can be edited by anyone. Not to mention that technically unless the person could back it up with proof it would be libel/slander/defamation. The wiki should be an encyclopedic resource, not a personal sh*tlist (regardless of whether they deserve to be on it at all). Comments? --William Blackstaff 07:59, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't think that a list of scammers should be on display here at all. Such a list belongs in the fansite forums. -- Thecount
 * Agreed, I'm going to remove it. --Rainith 11:24, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Sorry guys, didn't mean to stur such a ruckas I was just trying to inform user of some things to avoid. I was hoping to share some of my own mishapes so others wouldn't make the same mistakes --DragonWR12LB
 * That is perfectly understandable. The issue that arises though is that something like that could very easily be abused.
 * For example, ABC fights in one of the arenas and XYZ is on the opposing team. XYZ then repeatedly kills and mocks ABC.  ABC then come to GuildWiki and post that XYZ is a Scammer and not to sell to/run/help/talk to/etc... him.
 * Those are the kind of situations we are trying to avoid. --Rainith 13:46, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Also potentially mucky legal issues if someone decided to make a stink (it wouldn't go anywhere, but would cost someones - us, probably - monies) and that's no fun either. Like Rainith said, tho, no harm, no foul. Appreciate the thought of the contribution, regardless. =D --Nunix 14:03, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I support the idea of a scammer list. The requirement to post a name: proof of the scam. A screen capture of it. with that, sure, any noob can say he was "scammed" by somebody, just because they suck at PvP and lost, but they can't prove it. They wouldn't be able to produce an SC of the scam. Furthermore, do the "fansites" mentioned above have a connected and updated constantly? No. Guildwiki is still the fastest-updated GW site on the web, so us not having a scammer list sounds kinda sketchy.
 * If we don't have articles about guilds, we shouldn't have a scammer list. I think a forum works much better for this kind of thing than a wiki. --130.58 02:22, 12 April 2006 (CDT)
 * That's not a bad idea. There are times when I see someone's guild tag, and wonder which it is. Is there a guildwiki page with a list of guilds (guild name and tag)? A separate page per guild seems a little much, possibly, but a list of them should be minimum. They can be separated by realm, so the list doesn't take three hours to load.
 * Guilds come and go like the rooster's crow at dawn and the mayfly's dance at dusk. We have enough trouble as it is documenting the hard realities. Who has time to jot down ephemera? &mdash; Stabber (talk) 19:18, 12 April 2006 (CDT)
 * Err, the whole point of my post above (thanks for beating me to it, Stabber... I've been trying to reply all day but Guildwiki has been down) is that we shouldn't have these things, because they change too quickly and are of trivial interest at best. With guilds, specifically, there's a lot of potential for either vicious vandalism or egregious fancruft. --130.58 00:25, 13 April 2006 (CDT)
 * You can easily find out which guild belongs to the tag on the guildwars.com ladder page. And agreed with the above arguments: We should not have a list of scammers. --Xeeron 05:08, 13 April 2006 (CDT)

stolen?
i get the impression that this guide has been ripped off of another site, word for word... sorry if i am accusing someone unduly, but having "credits" on the bottom is very suspicious, cirdan could you explain please? - LordBiro

Collector rewards?
I see that a lot of people sell collector rewards for rather unreasonable prices. These prices are so high that the cost above the collector items you'd turn in can't be described as a "delivery fee." It's not exactly a scam, but it is a common way people try to rip you off, I'd say. Should it be added? Fyren
 * I'm not sure I'd call this a "scam" as such. Maybe "profiteering."  The problem as I see it is that the collector items are just too rare, so you outlevel the hunting zones long before accumulating enough monster bits to exchange for level-appropriate gear.  My main character is up to Copperhammer Mines and has only gotten one worthwhile item from a collector (not counting pre-searing), and it was replaced two hours later with better crafted gear.  If along the way I could have overpaid for some items -- or for the monster bits to get them, perhaps from a trader NPC -- I probably would have. --Saucepan 08:06, 24 Jun 2005 (EST)

Unidentified stuff
I don't think it this really should be in here. It's pretty obvious an unidentified item can be anything and there is a market for them. Gold salvage items go for cheaper than unidentified superior runes in most cases. The only thing might be people selling "unidentified superior absorption runes," which I've seen people try. --Fyren

My concern is the noob here, not the person who knows what's going on. You are a noob, someone offers you a Gold/Purple hammer and you think it is necessarily better than your blue hammer. But there is no such guarantee. You might say it is the noob's fault for being a noob. The risk part is not the issue you could buy an un-ID'ed item for 2K and find a rune of Superior Vigor, or you could find a rune of minor vigor. My concern is the noob who doesn't understand that purple/gold does not necessarily mean better weapon/item. Perhaps what I am warning against should be expressed better. --Karlos 09:00, 4 Jul 2005 (EST)

(Hi, I'm new here. Glad to see you've got a nice wiki built about this game. Going back to the topic...) Actually, I'm pretty sure that the primary reason why unidentified runes or items are sold is because of unlocking and the market there is behind it. Several posts at Guild Wars forums confirm that people seek unIDed items to unlock them for PvP, for which an already IDed item doesn't work. You can buy an Wrapping of Enchantment 20%, but that only allows you to use it once on the item you originally bought, unless you want risk salvaging the wrong mod or, worse yet, a bunch of wood. By IDing the weapon you can unlock the mods so that you can mod any weapon you want for your PvP characters. If you agree, I'd like to add that to the page. - Dologan, Aug 1 2005 - 7:35 PM (CST)
 * Go ahead. I made the original comment but forgot to sign it, I guess.  Certainly selling unidentified items is useful; my guild has spent hundreds of platinum to get everyone runes.  Also, you can click the signature link in the toolbar above to get --~, which till get turned into this: --Fyren 10:44, 2 Aug 2005 (EST)

Quest Items
About quest items not working, can't you just go out into a zone, drop the item, and pick it up? I've done this for things like the Royal Papers where it gets assigned. I've picked it up and dropped it for another party member and their log updated when they picked it up. --Fyren 04:46, 30 Jul 2005 (EST)
 * Hmm, maybe this needs to be looked into..I personally have only tried buying Althea's Ashes, but even web source I've found says that this is the only exception.--Jackel 06:13, 30 Jul 2005 (EST)
 * I, on principle, do not buy quest items. :) But, I haven noticed that this is being gradually fixed and improved. Last I heard at Piken's Square was that you cannot buy Althea's Ashes to complete the Quest anymore. I have not tried it, though. In addition, now when you kill a boss to get an item (like in Blood and Smoke), the boss drops six items for a six-member party! (each assigned to a specific player.) --Karlos 12:06, 30 Jul 2005 (EST)
 * I bought her ashes for 65g two days ago (I did the quest with a PUG and realised too late that I didn't have the quest on my list!). Once I found her ghost and got the ashes quest, buying the urn worked fine.--202.47.54.244 20:47, 27 Sep 2005 (EST)

Ppl, what's with the constant changes to Althea's Ashes? It's noted as impossible to obtain, but the reality is much different. It is possible to get her ashes, and it's certainly possible to buy and receive the quest reward from a purchased urn, because I did it myself last week. -- Serps 14:50, 7 Oct 2005 (EST)
 * Shame on you! :) --Karlos 16:33, 7 Oct 2005 (EST)

Salvage/runes
I'm pretty sure there's no association between the type of salvage/profession of what dropped it and the runes they yield. --Fyren 11:18, 2 Aug 2005 (EST)
 * I'm pretty sure there is. I have never salvaged say, a rune of Axe Mastery, off of Mursaat Garments. The Jade Armor remains always yield warrior and ranger stuff and the Mursaat garments always yield spell-caster stuff. You're saying you experienced this differently? --Karlos 11:22, 2 Aug 2005 (EST)
 * I am absolutely sure there is not. ;) At least not always. Today I got two necromancer runes off salvage items dropped by Avicara Brave (Warrior), Fierce (Ranger) or Wise (Mesmer). I don't recall exactly who of those dropped them, but I'm 100% positive I didn't kill any Avicara Guile (Necromancer). --84.175.95.146 11:40, 2 Aug 2005 (EST)
 * Ok, two votes to one. I'll remove it for now until I can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt! :) --Karlos 12:21, 2 Aug 2005 (EST)
 * I guess just to mention, I spent time farming gypsie ettins (warriors) and Tengu elites (also warriors) and have gotten runes for all professions. --Fyren 13:36, 2 Aug 2005 (EST)
 * I went out farming my favorite creatures (Grawls) tonight and ture enough, as these things always happen, I salvaged a swordsmanship rune out of a Grawl Elementalists Underwear or somehting like that. :) So, case closed. --Karlos 19:13, 2 Aug 2005 (EST)

Alt-F4
Ok, I think this is a little too dumb. :) Not only is it dumb not to know what Alt-F4 does (I know the younger generation doesn't know where the keyboard is), but it's excrutiatingly dumb if a player takes the advice of an OPPOSING team member on what to do or if, worse, he doesn't know that the one giving him advice IS an opposing team player! Can we assume a higher level of intelligence in players than this? :) --Karlos 12:25, 2 Aug 2005 (EST)


 * Disagreed. People are stupid, and we have to cater to that.  I'll also disagree with your statement about younger generations and keyboards: they know where the keyboard is, but they think it only has 39 keys.  26 letters, 10 digits, Shift, Space, and Enter. :) &mdash;Tanaric 20:54, 2 Aug 2005 (EST)

Actually there is only one short harm to someone who falls for alt+f4 compared to lost money. Buts its still a scam, even if you learn more than you lose by it.


 * Well, i am normally in the tomb, and there it IS a SEROIUS problem having 1 member less, but it also gives u a name more to ignore :\
 * But as i try to get with serious ppl together this is no problem 4 us, even fun if some1 writes something like 'press alt+F4 to...' and the some1 drops ;-) --HJT 21:39, 4 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * This is my point. We should not warn people about this. It is the ultimate test of whether everyone playing is a sentient or not. I mean if a team player drops due to Alt+F4 then the team was definitely better off without him! :) --Karlos 22:43, 4 Oct 2005 (EST)
 * I agree to that last sentence! :) --Thundergrace 22:48, 4 Oct 2005 (EST)

i don't like this article
first of all, we're a wiki, not a game faq or a web forum. an article Scams or Reported_Scams would fit in here better than Avoiding_Scams. and second, like lordbiro pointed out, most(all?) of them were copied off of somewhere else. since the original text were written for web forums, i don't think they're good enough to be a wiki article. Nuble 14:16, 2 Aug 2005 (EST)


 * Agreed, rewriting. &mdash;Tanaric 20:56, 2 Aug 2005 (EST)


 * Done, see Scams. &mdash;Tanaric 21:58, 2 Aug 2005 (EST)

Scam?
Im currently not a member of Guild Wiki, buti think i should just point this out as going on, even if it might not be a scam.

I saw a guy in Ashford Abbey offering to tell the secret to tons of platinum for a mere up front payment of 2 platinum. I smelt a scam but was still curious, so i managed to talk him down to 200 gold for the payment. Turns out i was right, his gold getting secret was "Tell people you know the secret to lot sof money and charge them gold to hear about it." Scam?


 * If I had read this on any other day, I would have said it's no big deal. But today I just saw a guy in Droknar's Forge offering a tip to a secret farming place with lots of cool drops for only 3K. I dismissed him as a scammer and a loon. But That with this seems to indicate a trend. So, I will put a note in scams. --Karlos 20:13, 27 Sep 2005 (EST)


 * If someone promises you the secret to making money for a certain price, then you pay him, and he tells you to sell people the secret to making money, is he really scamming you? --Fyren 21:08, 27 Sep 2005 (EST)


 * Yes. --Karlos 21:37, 27 Sep 2005 (EST)


 * But he gave you a secret to making money. --Fyren 22:06, 27 Sep 2005 (EST)


 * I am afraid I don't see the secret that he gave. What he did is he offered an illusionary service, got money for it then told you to go do the same. Selling illusionary secrets to people is: a) Not going to make you a ton of money and b) not exactly a "secret" of the trade. --Karlos 22:57, 27 Sep 2005 (EST)


 * It is a scam because: a) you wont make tons of platium with this and b)Agreeing to this deal, you clearly expect another answer and the scammer *knows* that you expect another answer and deliberatly uses your lack of knowledge to part you from your money, thus scamming.


 * I'd say most people wouldn't think that the secret was selling the secret (or else they wouldn't hand over money), therefore it meets the "secret" criteria. Upon completion of the deal not only does he give you this secret but the moneymaking potential is simultaneously proven.  "Tons" is relative.  There's a difference between a scam and being stupid and greedy.  If a farming spot was promised, it would be a scam.  But if what was promised was a secret to making money, while the seller was vague, he did not lie or even misrepresent anything.  --Fyren 08:03, 28 Sep 2005 (EST)


 * Maybe our definition of what a scam is differ. For me, deliberatly using the lack of knowledge of others to extract money is a scam. Lots of the other scams on the page do not involve the seller lying (eg. Athenas Ashes, Customized Weapons, Gold Dye do not need the seller to be lying, he just exploits the lack of knowledge on the buyer side). If the buyer *clearly* has some expectations and the seller *clearly* knows that he will not meet those expectations, then, for me, its a scam whether lying is involved or not. --Xeeron 05:46, 29 Sep 2005 (EST)


 * In addition, the advice offered creates a sort of pyramid scheme, which is illegal to offer over the internet (even for virtual currency, as I understand it) in the United States. &mdash;Tanaric 04:20, 6 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * One more general point I'd like to make is the absurd unprofitability of scams. Whenever I sit in a town or outpost, I see people offering runs for 500g or selling quest items for 100g. Often these people spam the chat for lenghty periods. With a half decent farming setup, you can make 1 plat in 10 minutes, so I dont get it why people spend 20 minutes offering a service that will take them another 5-10 minutes to complete for less. --Xeeron 01:14, 28 Sep 2005 (EST)

another way to get gold dye
I found if you use a dye remover on a green dye, it gets the same shade as silver+yellow+orange! I don't know if this is known enough to become a scam, but it could create an even bigger rippoff =P Skuld &Dagger; 20:15, 1 Oct 2005 (EST)

-- Same shade in the trade window, or same shade when applied? I doubt it's the latter... -- Serps 07:25, 6 Oct 2005 (EST) -- Only as an object icon. Having only ever dyed one set of armor with gold (Mesmer), I made a PvP mesmer with Virtuoso's Armor, since this was the closest I had to that set I dyed. Knocked up a batch of green/thinner dye, transferred over, and the result was... Still green. Total cost: 290 gold. That'd be one hell of a markup if you sell for 3k. --Havral Glommon 09:50, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * [[Image:Screen-001.jpg]]
 * Left - Green + dye remover
 * Right - Silver + Yellow + Orange
 * Skuld &Dagger; 04:21, 8 Oct 2005 (EST)

Black Dye Scam
more and more lately people are starting to sell Black Dye for 3p, and if you don't pay attention it'll actually be Silver Dye, as they look very similar. I'm not a member of GuildWiki, thus I'm pasting this here in comments.


 * Put in a general note about selling items other than advertised. --Karlos 19:25, 6 Oct 2005 (EST)

Althea's Ashes
the ashes r still sold, and i think u still get the quest done buying it, but... HOW DO U GET THE URN as it disappears if u do the quest normally? R all these urns still left over from old times? as i have a char near there i will observe the matter to get all the infos i need. --HJT 19:23, 7 Oct 2005 (EST)
 * I think you can get (nearly?) all quest items more then once by handing them to another character before redoing the quest --Xeeron 00:04, 8 Oct 2005 (EST)
 * Tis is prolly indeed so, it is even possible u get again an item if u put the 1 u get be4 in ur storage, but im more concerned what happens with all the urns, do they really, REALLY disappear? --HJT 04:06, 8 Oct 2005 (EST)

heres the riddles solution: u can get as many urns as u want abandonin the quest and retakin it. u dont even must put the urn in ur storage or on another player. urns stack. when u get to the altar, 4 every click on the altar 1 urn gets converted in 'urn of altheas ashes' (which stack too) which look EXACTLY as glitterin dust.
 * Clever! I'm trying that as soon as I get my new character to Piken ^__^ Skuld &Dagger; 06:30, 8 Oct 2005 (EST)
 * And does this work to complete the quest if you give the 'Urn of Althea's Ashes' to another player with the quest? If so then this isn't a scam, just a weak way to complete the quest.  --Rainith 06:33, 8 Oct 2005 (EST)

As i have 4 ashes left to experiment with, feel free to contact me, either on my talk or ingame: 'Barbena Soulreaper' or 'Lyna Backbreaker'. --HJT 06:55, 8 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * I would but I don't have a character that needs it at the moment. If you can confirm that it works that would be a big help, or just hold on to at least one set of ashes for a while, and I'll bring another character up to that point.  --Rainith 07:04, 8 Oct 2005 (EST)

White Dye
I've tried several combinations to create white dye but have never come up with a solution. I really wish I took a screenshot of the trade window when someone was trying to sell me 'white dye.' I tried 3 silver + yellow, 3 silver + blue, 3 silver + remover and similar formulas with only 2 silver as well. --Melly 09:44, 24 October 2005 (EST)


 * Well, I had heard about the 3 silver and yellow dye from a guildmate and I noticed someone was offering to sell the formula for white dye for something outrageous, like 40k or something. I shouted out the recepie above, and the guy selling then sent me a tell that said something to the effect of "please don't shout out my recepie, it hurts my sales" only not quite as polite. --Kiiron 19:03, 31 October 2005 (EST)


 * The receipt is Yellow/Silver/Silver/Silver and you will have something that look like white on some armor. But the effect is not the same on all armor so be warned. --Simonseztech 09:57, 17 november 2005 (EST)

"Platinums vs. Gold" section
I don't think this is worth having. --Fyren 17:04, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I'll agree with that. For what my opinion is worth, that is. ;) --Nkuvu 18:24, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm going to have to disagree because I have been scammed like that before. I talked to the person later and he said he has done that many times so I think the issue needs to be addressed. --DragonWR12LB 13:44, 28 December 2005 (EST)
 * I'm pretty okay with leaving it. If there's another topic it could be consolidated under, that's fine also. --Nunix 14:07, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Hmm. Well I don't think it's really harmful to have -- so if someone does find it useful... (*waffle waffle waffle*). Okay, yes, I admit I'm being wishy-washy on the subject. Meh. But maybe it can be consolidated with the Money Switch section. --Nkuvu 14:34, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I think it's useless. We already say that you should generally look carefully at the trade window to confirm that what you are offered is what you want. This is just a case of that. --Karlos 17:09, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Not to belittle Dragon, but one person saying it's useful isn't notable enough. I'll remove it in a couple days unless more against it.  --Fyren 20:11, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Culling the run section
Anyone care to shorten the run section substantially? It's a lot longer than necessary, I think. I'd do it, but I think my version wouldn't say much more than "there's no way to guarantee payment or services will be rendered." --Fyren 20:11, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Wintersday Event ended
Wintersday event has ended January 6 at 8pm GMT.

As soon as I reentered the game somebody was offering 50 candy shards for 10p. As the candy smiths are all gone, this would surely qualify as a scam. Somebody whon can add this to the normal page, should do this as soon as possible.


 * The person selling them to you might have had sinister intentions but is it a scam or simply supply and demand? I mean those +5 energy sword that use to be craftable at Denravi, and the halloween items surely went through the same thing. It's economics, the supply of the things has dried up so the value of them rises. They probably arn't worth 10p to the average user but one man's trash is another man's treasure. Besides you can always say 'no thanks' to the seller and move on. --William Blackstaff 16:00, 6 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I've also seen someone trying to sell a non-max fiery dragon sword at 100 platinum. Scam? Or just dumb? I vote for the latter. The candy cane shards from drops aren't totally useless -- they can be salvaged to glittering dust. So I would expect the shards to cost less than dust (since you have to invest the salvaging cost), but selling the shards doesn't seem like an outright scam to me. --Nkuvu 16:24, 6 January 2006 (UTC)


 * If you sell the weapons or the items you've got from wintersday event, that is supply and demand. If you sell the candy shards, which are only used to change them into weapons with a candy smith (who are gone now), that is what I definitely call a scam. The shards cannot be used anymore! (Sorry, I'm new here and thus I didn't know about formatting and signing. I've learned since.) -- Michael57 11:39, 7 January 2006 (UTC)


 * It depends on how the seller is going about it. If they are simply offering candy-cane shards at any listed price; then no problem be the asking price 1g or 1p (from bargain to stupid - it's supply and demand).  If they are stating or implying that they can still be converted into something other than glittering dust; or if they are representing them as having properties that they do not, such as suggesting they work just like candy canes, then that would be a scam. However, these types are already addressed in more generic terms by the other scam descriptions.  At most, candy cane shards could be added as an example to one of those; but no need to add a new scam type.  --Barek 11:53, 7 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Barek, your explanation convinces me. An added example would be enough in my eyes. The way I saw and understand those messages about the trade, I think a scam was intended. On the other hand it could have been a wrong way to put this trade forward, but I don't think I am that stupid. In general terms I think that it could be added that trade with event-items (any event) could be used for scam-trades and this would be worth to be added to the existing warnings. -- Michael57 16:37, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Canthan Items
With Factions released I see a lot of people advertising so-called "rare" items from Factions for ridiculous prices (100k+). What I gather is that these are simply crafted items like the +5 energy weapons (as these can not be had in Tyria since the removal of the Denravi Sword) or the Bronze Shield. Maybe someone that is playing Factions can confirm where these items are coming from and add a note about this in the article. It's really starting to bother me, and I'm hoping that people are not buying in to this scheme and wasting their money. --aCynicalPie 12:22, 2 May 2006 (CDT)

Factions accounts
When I popped in today, I noticed at least one person trying to sell a 'real Factions Account' for 45-90k (got a screenshot). I don't know what the deal with that is, but I think that that person would either have to

a) sell their own access key or b) sell a retail key or a key purchased through NCSoft

a) is not possible as far as I know, once the key was entered it can't be reused. b) just doesn't make sense to me - why would you want to spend money in real life to get money in a game?

I also don't know how this conforms with the terms of use. Anyhow, should there be a mention/warning in this article? --Rainynight65 07:07, 8 May 2006 (CDT)


 * People have been selling accounts in game for ages. Most if not all of these are scams and it should be mentioned in the article. I thought it was. --Gem [[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png|Gem]] 07:12, 8 May 2006 (CDT)
 * And you can also sell used accounts by transfering the account to another persons e-mail adress, but its a risky thing to trust the trade partner. --Gem [[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png|Gem]] 07:13, 8 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Yeah, it was mentioned unter 'Trading untradeables'. Missed out on that one. --Rainynight65 07:21, 8 May 2006 (CDT)

Plural article name
Is there any reason why the article name is in plural? I'll add a move tag for Scam (which is currently a wanted page). -- 03:45, 13 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I prefer the plural, because this page contains several scams, not just one. The singular can be redirected to the plural. –70.20&#x260e; 03:50, 13 June 2006 (CDT)


 * The plural probably came from the era when the article was a simple listing of scams, as opposed to a description/defintion of scam. Now that it has long since evolved from being just a list of scams, I support move to singular form. - 03:57, 13 June 2006 (CDT)


 * By policy we keep article names in sigular, with few exceptions, for example for things that only exist in plural in the game. There is a singular scam both as a noun and a verb, and it is so much easier to link using suffixes to the wiki-link, like scams, scamming or scammed . We have many many examples of singular articles on GWiki that contain lists. I can see that the article was probably created as a list only (as opposed to the definition article), hence the name, but the strange thing is that there is no definition article! Scam is blank! --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 04:01, 13 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Recommend creating Scam with just the definition and remedies pulled out of the Scams article, and moving the rest of Scams to List of scams. –70.20&#x260e; 04:13, 13 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I like that suggestion! It would also help to shorten the Scams article, which has become overly long.
 * Just one more thing: Why was the tag removed?? A move has been suggested, we are having a discussion about the move right now, and that's exactly what the tag is supposed to indicate: A discussion in process!! I'm putting the  tag back! -- [[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]]  05:14, 13 June 2006 (CDT)