Talk:Healer's Covenant

"healing spells"
Healing Prayers, or just.. any spell that heals? &mdash; Skuld 05:48, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Read the notes, Skud. --Fyren 05:59, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
 * How did they get there?! &mdash; Skuld 06:00, 17 April 2007 (CDT)

Interesting Factoid of the Day
So I just capped this while carrying Light of Deliverance [E], at 13 healing prayers. Healer's Covenant does the same thing with LoD as it does with Heal Party. So now instead of a 70-point, 5-energy Heal Party... you have a 53-point, 2-energy Heal Party. I don't know if that's more efficient or not (And it's not like it really matters anyway), but I thought it was amusing. Gwen Shadowsound 22:19, 26 April 2007 (CDT)

Healer's Boon +This?
Say you played a Mo/Me and used Arcane Mimicry or Arcane Thievery to get both Healer's Covenant and Healer's Boon at the same time. If you used together would it be 1.00*.75*1.5 = 1.125, or 1.00*1.25 = 1.25?

I am assuming you are talking about the healing power... I just did a quick test with order of spell casted and came out with this (the heal was a base of 100 using Ethereal Light to make it easy). Casting Conv then Healers boon gives an output of 112 (or 1.125 of the base rounded down). If you cast HB THEN HC you get this: 75 (.75 of the base) meaning that HB didnt have an effect when HC was cast second.--Saji-Kun 05:18, 30 May 2007 (CDT)

HC is a lot worse than Peace and Harmony, here's why
So everyone has his/her opinion about this skill. And it doesn't sound exactly bad, with typical spell costs reduced by 60%, with only 25% reduction in power, not even counting Divine Favor. But how does the -1 maintenance fit in? Is it worth it? Let's hear what the numbers say:

We assume a typical monk with Healing Prayers and Divine Favor in the 13-16 range and lots of 5E spells.

How does HC increase the cost of spellcasting?

It heals for 25% less. If we take Orison of Healing as our run-of-the-mill, all-time-favorite non-Elite healing spam skill as the average case, then the total healing effect of a spell will be composed of about 66% Healing Prayers healing and 33% Divine Favor bonus. Only the 66% are affected by the Covenant penalty, therefore we have (divine favor)100%*33% plus (Healing Prayers) 75%*66%, which equals 33%+50% = 83% total healing effect. To offset a 83% healing, we need 120% as many spells and therefore 120.5% as much energy than without Covenant, because 0.83 * 1.2 = 1.

As a result, if we had been spending 4 pips of energy before, we would now have to cast spells worth 4*1.2 = 4.8 pips to get the same effect as without Covenant.

Now for the good news, which is the -3 cost. For 5 energy spells, this means a cost reduction of 60%, which means we only need 40% of the energy to get the same effect. So if we've been working with 4 pips before, we would now only need 4*0.4 = 1.6 pips. However, as we have seen above, we must provide 4.8 pips, so in total we need 4 pips * 1.20 * 0.4 = 1.92 pips to get the same effect as without Covenant. (Note that 5 energy spells is the optimum; for 10E spells our energy reduction drops from 60% to 30%; our costs increase because for 10E spells, the ratio of Healing/Divine Favour effect typically increases, which in turn gives the 25% penalty more weight.)

Because of Covenant maintenance, we have 3 pips available to pay 1.92 pips worth of spells, so in grand total:

When spamming typical 5 energy healing spells at typical Monk attributes, Healer's Covenant works out to around 1 additional pip of energy

Already stopped sounding so impressive. But it goes on.

The "Elite Monk skill for +1 pip" should ring a bell with any GW veteran: yes, Peace and Harmony, one of our, if not THE most loathed Monk Elite. It does basically the same thing, it gives +1 pip of energy. But what are the technical differences that set the skills apart?


 * Every Monk on the team requires his own Healer's covenant instead of one PaH for the whole team. For 2 or 3 monks obviously 1 or 2 Elite slots are wasted.


 * Arcane Mimicry is at most a theoretical option, because it still costs a regular skill slot, determines your secondary class, is prohibitively slow, expensive, and most of the time plain impossible to use because of recharge. Try recasting Covenant for a whooping 20E, minimum 4 seconds, and ONLY if mimicry happens to be recharged. PaH handles these issues far better.


 * If the HC monk does not cast, the extra pip basically disappears until he starts casting again, because saving a pip in costs can by definition only happen when expending energy. PaH's pip, however, is always present.


 * With HC, you are restricted to the 5 energy healing spells of the Healing Prayers line. Anything more expensive or from a different line and the energy save is greatly reduced or even turned into a loss. PaH doesn't have such restrictions, because the pip is yours to use. (Wanding foes for 1 damage is an easily suppressable reflex, so the PaH cancel condition is a non-issue).


 * HC severly reduces heal spikes, because all healing spells are dulled by at least 17%. Healing Prayers spells that have a larger effect also have a higher percentual, not only absolute, reduction. Again, no such concerns with PaH.

To be fair, recasting PaH requires some communication between the monks and HC has a .25 cast time. But communication should be given anyway in teams where at least 2 monks work, and the latter doesn't even come close to making up for all the shortcomings of HC vs. PaH. Also, instead of direct healing spells, one could instead use Healing Breeze, Vigorous Spirit and other enchantments in the Healing Prayers line. For this purpose, HC looks favorable. But the real power of Healing Prayers, i.e. spike healing, is lost either way when using HC.

My conclusion: for all except fringe application (spamming Healing enchants) HC looks a lot worse than Peace and Harmony. --Roland of Gilead (talk) 14:12, 1 July 2007 (CDT)
 * RAmen. --Macros 14:16, 1 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Gasp! U must've been bored! &mdash; Shady Guy  [[Image:shadyguysig.gif|19px]] 14:31, 1 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Not exactly bored, but frequent ping bursts of 3000 or more since the double Faction weekend started make playing GW a slightly less pleasurable experience than usual. Besides, I never believed that HC was as uber as some claim, so I worked out the math once and for all instead of keeping those nagging suspicions. The PaH comparison came naturally when I saw the result of +1 pip. --[[Image:Roland_icon.png]]Roland of Gilead (talk) 14:44, 1 July 2007 (CDT)
 * One issue that you didn't address however is the upkeep cost of PnH. While it isn't a huge boost, PnH doesn't actually work to an energy boost until 15 seconds after casting the spell (which you have to do every once in a while).  Again, not a huge problem, except that HC was slightly better than 1 regen and that only widens the gap, albeit slightly.  76.102.172.202 17:33, 15 July 2007 (CDT)
 * PnH can be precast and has a huge duration, so that's basically a non-issue except in very drawn-out battles that don't slow down for even a second. At some point, the PnH caster will die or has to run from/to the battle. --[[Image:Roland_icon.png]]Roland of Gilead (talk) 08:55, 7 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I never liked this anyway :P Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|19px]] 09:14, 7 August 2007 (CDT)
 * It does make the power of BR and BiP stronger. It also makes your energy last longer. If you have 50 energy, you can cast 10 five energy spells. If you have that same 50 energy, you can cast a 5 energy spell about 20-21 times with your 120% factored in.


 * So basically, with 50 energy, using this spell gives you 100 energy and 1 pip of energy regeneration.


 * And I have to disagree with your math. With your figure of 120%, extra needed, that means that instead of 5 energy spells, your spells cost 2.4 (2 * 1.2). Since the cost of your spells are halved, it effectively makes each pip count as two. So with your 3 pips left, they actually translate into 6 pips, which means this skill actually gives you an additional 2 pips. --76.2.227.251 03:35, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Gwen may save this
Cure Hex, Spotless Mind, Spotless Soul and Patient Spirit. Spells which can all can take advantage of this spell withonly cure hex losing out, but only slightly. --Ckal Ktak 05:04, 23 August 2007 (CDT)

Doubt that they work with them. Try with Vig Spirit or something similar first to see if they affect it. I would, but I don't want to waste 3k faction. 220.101.138.181 05:26, 23 August 2007 (CDT)

They aren't Title skills, they're GWEN skills, and Vigourous spirit's healing isn't reduced by healer's covenant, neither will the heal from Patient spirit. --Ckal Ktak 06:54, 23 August 2007 (CDT)

Balth faction, sorry, or otherwise 1k. Enchantments aren't affected, so that build wouldn't really work. 220.101.138.181 07:22, 23 August 2007 (CDT)


 * If it's in healing prayers, it's cheaper. Therefore healing enchantments are affected. the indirect nature of the enchantments avoids the healing reduction. --Ckal Ktak 07:24, 23 August 2007 (CDT)


 * I think I misunderstood you, thought you meant that Vig Spirit's energy cost wasn't affected. If it's reduced, good, this elite will be slightly less useless. 220.101.138.181 07:29, 23 August 2007 (CDT)


 * Appears I wasn't all that clear, I'll reword it a bit. Going to sign in at all? --Ckal Ktak 07:49, 23 August 2007 (CDT)


 * Can't be bothered, got cookies disabled :) 220.101.138.181 08:18, 23 August 2007 (CDT)

I tried using it with a condition/hex removal build like you suggested: Total Party Wipeout. I gave Ogden my build (On my page under Throw Me A Boon) which he uses very well. Maybe if I had three monks: myself on condition/hex removal, Ogden on Healing, and Tahlkora on Protection the group wouldn't wipe out so fast. I know in dungeons the conditions and hexes can be nightmarish, but unless there are three monks I just don't see it working out. Clay85 20:54, 8 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Third monk could use this with Zealot's Fire to do a little bit of damage? The healing should be pretty much under control because of the 2 other monks, but with this, Zealot spells only cost 3 energy instead of 6. I don't know. --76.2.227.251 03:28, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Heroes refuse to use/maintain
My heroes will not cast this spell and when I cast it for them they immediately remove it from themselves. Clay85 13:53, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Disable the spell, and cast it manually, then watch for removal. I have a feeling they will only activate it when low on energy to conserve it. --Ckal Ktak 15:38, 8 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Removed the note. See above.--[[Image:Gates Sig.png|19px]] The Gates Assassin 03:52, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Please stop removing the note. It is very worthwhile to state that heroes won't maintain it, and for people who don't have experience with heroes maintaining spells it will NOT be obvious --Gimmethegepgun 07:21, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
 * If we put it on this skill we need to put it on just about every maintained spell. It should be on the hero page, and unless you want to go through all the spells that should be sufficient--Alari 09:04, 13 January 2008 (UTC).
 * Exactly, putting it on every single one is stupid. It's a hero note, not a specific skill note.--[[Image:Gates Sig.png|19px]] The Gates Assassin 18:02, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Ugh..
I hope i got the template name right =P -- Warwick (Talk)/(Contr. ) 22:39, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No, need a capital U, and no because before the WoH buff this was my favorite healing elite for monk heroes anywhere in pve.--Alari 04:14, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * This skill is actually an interesting candidate for a RA monk build... It doesn't affect the healing from Patient Spirit, thus making spam fun. [[Image:Ruricu-sig.png]] ( Talk • Contribs) 04:36, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * If you don't mind living two seconds in the future, yeah. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 04:37, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Shh, it works:  [[Image:Ruricu-sig.png]] ( Talk • Contribs) 04:42, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Stolen. Credit is mine. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 04:48, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe ya'll need a new template that just says in essence: "way too situational to be an Elite" ...or in this one's case "way too much MATH required to make effective" :p --ilr


 * I have to agree with some of the above posters, the new EotN healing enchantments made this very viable. Blue.rellik 05:14, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

glyph of renewal +divine spirit > this--Simpson man 01:28, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * One skill slot > Two. Zulu Inuoe 01:30, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * 15 energy cost < 5 .--[[Image:GatessMoebius Strike Icon.jpg|20px]]The Gates Assassin  02:58, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Glyph of renewal hogs up your secondary Blue.rellik 03:03, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I think we all get the idea. Mr IP 03:07, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Nerfed
Now it's crap again, patient spirit and the bonus healing from dwayna's kiss are reduced now, making the HC monk used in covenantway TA builds bad.--24.128.29.59 19:17, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think Patient Spirit was bugged at all. It was actually good how it was, because now it pwns too much with Healer's Boon, and sucks with Healer's Covenant. I like how it works with HB, but they ruined HC. Healer's Covenant, I knew thee well. -Mike 00:16, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

The strength of indirect healing effects, e.g. Vigorous Spirit or Healing Seed, is not reduced.

Still true? --- -- (s)talkpage  15:32, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Ya, indirect healing are unchanged, but there's only so much of that now. Patient Spirit is boosted by HB, but also reduced by HC, though. ــѕт.  мıкε  15:49, 19 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay, thanks for confirming... I thought they had "nerfed" (fixed) those too, but oh well. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  15:53, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Slightly better now
I could see this getting at least some minor use now- it leaves you with tons of energy for secondary class defense. 04:50, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Covenant Prot [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 04:52, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Really? I could be mistaken, but I thought the update made signets healing reduced, while no energy benefit is gained. Why is it superior now?24.176.110.180 00:27, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
 * This update made signets not be affected by covenant. It was a bug that their healing was reduced. --Shadowcrest  00:32, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Net energy loss
On both wikis, this skill is stated to cause an overall loss of energy when used with 10-energy heals. How do people come to this conclusion? From my numbers, using Heal Other as a reasonably spammable 10-energy heal:
 * At base it costs 10 energy every 3.75 seconds (including cast time), or 2.66 energy per second.
 * With HC it costs 7 energy every 3.75 seconds, or 1.87 energy per second.
 * Assuming constant use of HO, HC would save 0.79 energy per second at the cost of 0.33 energy per second (1 pip of regen).

I'm not suggesting using it this way, nor arguing about the healing efficiency of doing so. I just don't understand where the "net loss of energy" idea comes from in regard to 10e heals. Would anyone mind clarifying the math for me? -- AudreyChandler 19:04, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * In the process of archiving this page, I found a detailed answer to my question hidden among the many towering mesas of text. Thank you from the future, editor of the past! (for anyone browsing, it's this one.) -- AudreyChandler 19:27, 27 March 2009 (UTC)