Talk:Second Wind

Will this raise your exauhsted nrg lvl to your normal nrg lvl?-Only a Shadow
 * Na, exhaustion will stay, infact this adds to it Skuld  16:49, 11 May 2006 (CDT)

Usage Notes
"This is a powerful energy restoration spell for Obsidian Flame build in PvP. Player may build 30 point exhaustion (still having 50 max energy). It will allow getting 25 energy every 7 seconds."

I don't think it's quite clear, I didn't grasp the reasoning behind it. Also both Obsidian Flame and Second Wind cause exhaustion, and isn't it a worse solution than Glyph of Energy for OF spiking in the long term? --Akaraxle 04:03, 23 May 2006 (CDT)


 * The usage notes are wrong and/or misleading because Second Wind adds exhaustion. Would support deleting the note entirely. 141.151.189.132 04:11, 23 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Okay, I'll wait for one more feedback on this before deleting it. I'll let Wiki know, however, that I've recently studied and used this skill and came to interesting conclusions: I might write a set of usage tips myself, once I feel I've mastered it. A comparison with Ether Prodigy, the current common choice for Elementalist energy management, could also help this article as I feel Second Wind can be just as good or even better depending on the situation.
 * [EDIT] Well, someone deleted already. Guess no information at all is better than dubious information. --Akaraxle 07:42, 23 May 2006 (CDT)

This skill is amazing when you use a focus with e+15r-1, and for your wand use either the same, or the Wayward Wand from Divine Path. You can accumulate a ludicrous amount of exhaustion and get something like 30+ energy each cast if you pace yourself. PvE, of course. Kessel 21:33, 20 June 2006 (CDT)
 * The graph was deleted, but one thing was obvious. Using 2x +15/-1 is worse, if you looked at the energy gain/second. The lost energy pip can't be compensated by the bigger energy gain from a higher exhaustion level. If you like the pure energy gain, then yes, it's better to use the +15/-1 combo. --Nemren 15:03, 9 July 2006 (CDT)
 * What isn't discussed is running a focus-swapping combination of the +15/-1 items and regular item sets. If you just swap to the -regen set when your energy is low on your regular set, then you get the benefits of both the 4 pips of energy regen, as well as the ability to carry more exhaustion.  IMO, the -regen focus and wand is essential to have when using second wind.  If you are exhausted by 40 and your regular max en is 80, then double +15 en gets you to 110 max energy, and you can use the 30 energy from the weapon swap to cast some spells then second wind, and then swap back to your regular set, at which point you will be exhausted for approx 50 out of 80.  Basically, you are using the +15/-1 set for approximately as long as it takes you to go through 30 energy and use second wind, then you switch back to your normal set.  Definately worth it IMO.  Ninja Quail, 18 July 2006

RE: the revert of my usage notes - I probably didn't explain my calculations very well, which probably lead to some confusion. I run this skill while using energy storage and wand/focus to raise my energy to 120, and maintain exhaustion at 40-50 (ie. 50 just at casting Second Wind). Using this method, the player has 2 pips of energy regeneration, ie. 20 energy per 30 seconds. On casting Second Wind, the player gains 50 energy, which is repeated every 30 seconds, resulting in a gain of 50 energy every 30 seconds, or 5 pips of energy regeneration. Combined with the innate 2 pips, the player has an effective 7 pips of regeneration. This is ignoring of course the 5 energy cost, which can easily be countered by sustaining a further 5 points of exhaustion. Every 10 points of exhaustion adds an effective 1 pip of energy regeneration, so maintaining 50% exhaustion is unnecessary and not what I would suggest. one-third is quite sufficient at 120 max energy, as it is 40 exhaustion (40 points per 30 seconds = 4 pips + 2 natural pips). I may, of course, be completely incorrect in my calculations, but as far as I know, the wand/focus combo does in fact increase its effectiveness strongly. I'll wait for a response, and if this info is confirmed I will re-write my notes and put them into the article. Bubbinska 04:54, 31 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Holding 15/-1s all the time is definitely not helpful. Ten exhaustion does provide the same energy as one pip would, but exhausting yourself over half is not helpful in the long run.  So, when you raise your max energy, you only gain half that back at best through second wind.  15 / 2 < 10, so the pip of regen is better.
 * Quail's argument above is that it's better because you can swap between the sets. Hold the 15/-1s, cast SW, dump your energy, swap sets, and wait for the remainder of the 30s till you do it again.  If you can dump your energy in, say, 20s and hold your normal set for 10s, this ends up being a little more energy (per 15/-1, the 7.5 mentioned before plus 10/3 energy from the pip for the 10s).  However, if you do this, you end up not being able to cast for those 10s since you're in the negatives.  And if you do it exactly that way, you end up with 10*4/3 ~= 13 energy when you swap back to cast SW, meaning you're wasting 8 energy, which is more than you gained by swapping in the first place.  I guess you could dump the initial energy as fast as you can, then keep swapping and spending the gained energy while trying to hold the non-15/-1s as much as possible.  --68.142.14.19 07:01, 31 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Quail's argument above is that it's better because you can swap between the sets. Hold the 15/-1s, cast SW, dump your energy, swap sets, and wait for the remainder of the 30s till you do it again.  If you can dump your energy in, say, 20s and hold your normal set for 10s, this ends up being a little more energy (per 15/-1, the 7.5 mentioned before plus 10/3 energy from the pip for the 10s).  However, if you do this, you end up not being able to cast for those 10s since you're in the negatives.  And if you do it exactly that way, you end up with 10*4/3 ~= 13 energy when you swap back to cast SW, meaning you're wasting 8 energy, which is more than you gained by swapping in the first place.  I guess you could dump the initial energy as fast as you can, then keep swapping and spending the gained energy while trying to hold the non-15/-1s as much as possible.  --68.142.14.19 07:01, 31 July 2006 (CDT)


 * What I don't understand is the half-gain part. What do you mean by that? What I think you mean is that all users would maintain 50% exhaustion, and so raising energy by 15 means you only gain an actual 7.5 energy. What I mean by raising energy higher, however, is that the caster can maintain higher levels of exhaustion without cutting into the "spendable" energy. For my use, the top 50-ish energy is reserved for exhaustion, while the remaining 70 is used to cast. Switching back to a normal staff is of course useful to naturally regenerate energy, but as far as I understand, casting SW every 30 seconds will allow greater energy regen. Bubbinska 08:00, 31 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Now I'm not exactly sure what you're saying, either, heh. By raising your max energy by a total of 30, you're not getting another 30 energy out of every second wind cast.  I don't know if that's what you meant.  But that's what I mean about gaining only half.  Lets say you have 20 max energy.  If you cast SW every time you're at 5/20 (with no exhaustion), you end up gaining 10e every cast.  If you add 30 max energy, the best case situation is then casting SW every time you're at 5/25 (with 25 exhaustion) to gain 25e every cast for a 15e increase relative to before, which is half of the 30.  It works out the same no matter how much energy you have (well, as long as it's above 20).  If your max energy is 120 (as you mentioned originally), then having 50 exhaustion before casting SW is the situation I described with half being exhausted out for SW.  --68.142.14.19 08:19, 31 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Without trying to be too particular about it, if the goal is to produce the maximum energy over a long period time, it is (mathematically) best to never use the +15/-1 foci. That said, they are still useful for a temporary energy boost (as always) and can be helpful to avoid losing some of the gain from SW (but only if you would actually be going over 50% exhaustion otherwise).  Bubbinska, the issue is that you are promoting not keeping 50% exhaustion, when 50% exhaustion is definitely the way to get the most energy out of Second Wind.  No one is saying that keeping 50% exhaustion is always ideal or the most flexible way to play, but when you cut the math to the simplest forms, it is always better (for pure energy regeneration purposes) to keep exhaustion at exactly 50%.  Otherwise, you aren't gaining energy you could be getting "for free", merely by having previously set up more exhaustion.
 * But since we are talking about it, there's some fine reasons to not keep 50% exhaustion, such as limiting your "maximum" energy. In the case where the user only has 70 energy, say, that means there's 35 exhaustion, which only leaves the user with 35 energy "on tap" at any time.  This wouldn't allow the user to spam multiple big spells, for instance, so there's clearly some advantages to other methods.  If you need the ability to cast Heal Party, Glyph of Sacrifice, Meteor Shower, and then Heal Party again, it doesn't work out to maintain a very low maximum energy.  But to produce the maximum amount of energy, mathematically, you need to maintain the 50%.  This is why the +15/-1 items only effectively give you +7.5e/30s with Second Wind (when maxing out production), while costing 10e/30s (one pip for 30s).  OK.  Enough rambling.  Hopefully that makes sense.  Possibly Notes should reflect that a bit better. --JoDiamonds 11:08, 31 July 2006 (CDT)
 * No, as Quail and I described (though I think it's not worth the hassle), it can get you more energy. --68.142.14.19 11:45, 31 July 2006 (CDT)


 * OK. I still don't understand how it combos with Second Wind to net more energy in the long term, but I'd probably need a really specific example / timeline to get it, I guess.  (We all know you can temporarily get 30 energy out of a second weapon set, but how does that interact with Second Wind; in particular, maximizing the long term energy gain).  Quail's timeline says, "Use Second Wind to get 50 energy/exhaustion while at 110 energy, then drop back to 80".  You'd then have 30 actual maximum energy, so you'd lose what you got from Second Wind.  Maybe the unsaid action is that you need to spend more energy right then, too?  Perhaps more to the point, I haven't seen any actual math showing that this is somehow more energy.  At this point, I also understand if you don't want to explain it anymore -- people will use Second Wind as they see fit regardless.  Yak yak yak type type type.  --JoDiamonds 16:46, 31 July 2006 (CDT)

Not a timeline, but here's a breakdown (ignoring that SW is really used every 32s, not every 30s, and the 5e cost).

With "normal" weapons, assuming 80 max energy: A total of +80e per 30s.
 * +40e from SW
 * +40e from 4 pips for 30s

With two 15/-1s, assuming 110 max energy: A total of +75e per 30s.
 * +55e from SW
 * +20e from 2 pips for 30s

With swapping and 80/110 max energy: A total of +80.33e per 30s.
 * +55e from SW
 * +14.67 from 2 pips for 22s
 * +10.67 from 4 pips for 8s

The third case is the one of interest. The 22s/8s break was arbitrarily chosen just to make the energy total close to the first case. I guess the best plan for the third case would be to hold the 15/-1s only when casting SW or when you don't have enough energy to cast otherwise. I'd guess managing to hold the normal set for 8s wouldn't be a problem, and you could probably manage longer. --68.142.14.19 17:36, 31 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Thanks. That actually helped.  It sounds like you need to hold the 15/-1s long enough to use the +30 energy, cast Second Wind, and then use most of the Second Wind energy (so when you swap out the +15/-1s the energy isn't lost).  But presumably, with certain skill setups, that won't be very hard.  Incidentally, it's quite possible to used Second Wind every thirty seconds (28 seconds between activations).  The 30 seconds is merely for exhaustion maintenance.  Second Wind actually recharges in five seconds, you just don't usually want to activate it that often (except initially, when building up the exhaustion).  I consider the 5e important, but of course it's the same cost in each of those examples (5e/30s, half a pip of energy). --JoDiamonds 22:36, 31 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Quote "then use most of the Second Wind energy (so when you swap out the +15/-1s the energy isn't lost)." Energy is always gained and lost at the bottom (likw health).  If you have 20 energy (abritrarily chosen) and swap to a set that gives you +30 energy, you then have 50 energy.  if you have 20e and swap to a set that has -30 less energy you will have -10 energy, but it will show as 0 until you regen 10e.  Anyway, you don't have to hold the +15/-1s set after you cast second wind, unless you have less energy than the set gives (ie probably 30 energy).  StatMan 23:53, 18 August 2007 (CDT)

The graph...
Umm, is thing really neccessary? Sleepy 06:55, 16 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Like others, I think the graph is overkill here (maybe useful on another page that goes more in depth). However, I liked the simpler table presented on an older version, so I restored it.  Hopefully that's a reasonable compromise.  --JoDiamonds 22:45, 16 June 2006 (CDT)

for clarity
I know some initial confusion (including mine) really left usability questions for this skill, as the description mentions energy lost due to exhaustion. However in truth it's the shortage of the energy pool, not whether you actually lost energy as the pool decreased.

I think subsquent comments here have made this clear enough now, but I'm sure the text on the skill at least caused (if not still causes) some initial confusion.

Owie
My head hurts.... to much talking!