Talk:Avatar of Balthazar

Would the run speed boost stack with Shouts (edited to not limit to charge)and a stance? If so i see a whole new breed of Forge runners. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Midnight08 (talk &bull; contribs) 12:48, 31 July 2006 (CDT).
 * it probably would, but movement is capped at 150%, i think. either way, 1:12 is a long time to sit around waiting for this form to recycle before continuing the run. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 12:55, 31 July 2006 (CDT)
 * If you spect it to 16 rank, the down time is only 58 secs d-: - 13:00, 31 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Heh so one track minded. Both Dervishes and Paragons have several good speed increases. So why not use a few. Avatar is just a strong one for harder areas. Between that there you have Fall Back combined with Lyssas Haste (2 25% buffs gain 1 energy per second moving lose and gain some health per second moving.), Aria of Swiftness, Enchanted Haste, etc... You could remove hexes with Pious Restoration) (throw on Faithful Intervention and when u need to remove hexes place Lyssas Haste and then Pious to remove it) For anti KD there is Fleeting Stability. (use pious restoration to remove it before the end). All in all i see D/P as being a very stable runner, with healing, hex removal, anti KD, and several good run speed increases coupled with high base hp, and decent al (especially with Balth on). Really I dont see any downsides to this as a runner. Midnight08 13:30, 31 July 2006 (CDT)

This basically forms the most ridiculous tank around. Is that its aim? *grin* Kessel 05:50, 1 August 2006 (CDT)

holy damage?
Is this actual holy damage, or it light damage like Judge's Insight? -- Gordon Ecker 20:17, 1 August 2006 (CDT)
 * It's not confirmed whether Judge's Insight is Light damage or Holy damage, and most likely won't be without an official word. My guess is that Holy damage isn't always armor ignorant and that it depends on the wording if it is or not. Just a thought I got today though, and hasn't been given a serious thought yet.


 * For example; "Target foe takes 40 holy damage": Armor ignorant. "This skill deals 40 holy damage to target foe": Not armor ignorant. "Target foe receives 40 holy damage": Not armor ignorant. "Attacks deal holy damage": Not armor ignorant.


 * Or something like that atleast. &mdash; Galil  20:23, 1 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I don't remember where the discussion was, but as I understand it, we came to the conclusion that holy damage is not completely armor ignoring. Rather, it treats AL as 60 before armor penetration (Smite has been confirmed to get AP from Strength). However this could also be the result of a flag that treats pre-penetration AL as 60 that's set on most holy damage skills have rather than an inherent property of holy damage. Anyway, did anyone check whether it ignores armour and / or treats AL as 60 like most holy damage skills, or just ignore physical and elemental AL bonuses and do extra damage vs undead? -- Gordon Ecker 20:47, 1 August 2006 (CDT)


 * The "treats Armor as 60" is the most misleading conclusion ever to visit the GuildWars damage discussion. And I don't know who you meant by "we", but I have always argued against it.  JI does NOT treat armor as 60.  Other skills simply have an Armor Effect of 1 (AL = DL) which makes armor itself moot. - 21:52, 1 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I think the only reason Smite gets AP from Strength is because it's specifically typed as an "Attack". Compared to Banish or Holy Strike, it always deals the same damage to any target (pending damage reduction skills). --Vortexsam 22:54, 1 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Sorry about that, talk:Judge's Insight said holy damage treats AL as 60. The claim that JI itself treats AL as 60 before penetration was refuted, but the claim that every other Smiting Prayers skill treats AL as 60 was unchallenged, so I assumed that this claim was correct, "we" meant "the half dozen people who responded to the claim on talk:JI that holy damage treats non-undead AL as 60 without refuting it". The thing about Smite getting AP from Strength is from talk:Strength, and has either been changed or was a bogus claim to begin with. And "most holy damage skills" meant "pretty much everything except JI". Anyway, there's still the question of whether the damage treats Armor Effect as 1 like every pretty much every holy damage skill except JI or if it works like light damage and JI without the armor penetration. -- Gordon Ecker 23:36, 1 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Agree that the initial question remains valid. - 23:44, 1 August 2006 (CDT)

Bleh. This question wouldn't even come up if people wouldn't be so stuck on their stupid idea, that holy damage ignores armor. All kinds of crazy theories have been sprouting up in JI talk pages. Here's the deal: Skill added damage always ignores armor UNLESS it is specifically stated, that the extra damage is of elemental or physical type. Base attack damage always counts armor regardless of type. So in this case it just turns attack damage type to holy, which means it still counts armor, it just does double vs undead and warriors don't get any benefit from absorption runes, shield damage reduction and their +20 vs physical. --Spura 06:06, 25 September 2006 (CDT)
 * And that assumption is just wrong aswell see lightbringers gaze. 62.253.96.47 21:46, 4 November 2006 (CST) Ansi

I went and used Wild Blow on the suit of 15, 35, and 55 armor targets in Churhir Fields or whatever it's called (the one beside Kamadan) while under the effects of Avatar of Balthazar (no other buffs, scythe mastery 15, max damage 15^50 scythe with no armor penetration) and dealt 135 damage to the 15 armor suit, 108 to the 35 armor and 77 to the 55 armor. This would suggest it does not ignore armor.

-- Colonel Popcorn 19:12, 12 November 2006 (CST)

Whilst?
What's with the liberal use of the word "whilst" throughout GuildWiki? Are we speaking olde english now? I noticed it in the footnote for the image in this article, among numerous other places. The word is "while" and the present day is 2006. Tarinoc 04:05, 17 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Some speakers of English are not American. --Fyren 04:10, 17 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I might have to colour your armour grey! &mdash; Skuld 04:21, 17 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Well... "whilst" sounds encyclopedic. "While" sounds like a lower form of english (compared to a classy "whilst"), although it isn't as bad as "fo' shizzle." -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|||My Talk]] 17:49, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

New Spell Casting Cost
Avatar of Balthazar now has a 15e Casting cost (up from 5e) and a 10 second Recharge (same for all forms). Will that make any difference whatsosever? --Zinger314 09:57, 23 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Doubt it, but it's still up there on my favorite forms list, alongside Lyssa's and maybe Melandru's. Extra AL, extra speed, and holy damage, ouch. :D DancingZombies 20:58, 23 September 2006 (CDT)

Would expertise work to get it lower on energy? because it's a form not a spell? 131.174.121.225 16:09, 29 September 2006 (CDT)

HOW?!
How do you have this information? Are forms available in the preview event? -Sakan 04:49, 24 September 2006 (CDT)
 * PvP? &mdash; [[Image:Fin_sig.gif]] kyrasantae   04:50, 24 September 2006 (CDT)
 * PvP I'd say :) EDIT: Ninja'd! Asmodeus 04:50, 24 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Hehe. Can you tell I'm a PvE player? --Sakan 04:58, 24 September 2006 (CDT)

Keeping AoB up longer?
I was wondering, does Echo copy Forms? (not Arcane Echo, i mean the elite skill, Echo) if so, a D/Me could try Avatar of Balthazar, Arcane Mimicry, Arcane Echo, and copy Echo off of a teammate, use Arcane Echo, then Echo, then the Form, then the Arcane Echoed Echo, and then the Echoed Form, so you should have just 10-20 or so seconds of downtime, its complicated, but would it work, and is it worth it? --Terrifi Cani 11:44, 2 October 2006 (CDT)
 * No, it is not worth it &mdash; Skuld 11:55, 2 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Ever thought about Echo being an Elite itself? So you can't use it with the Elite Forms. Even if possible I guess the "disable for 120 seconds" would disable the copy itself, too. myko 10 October 2006
 * *sigh* dont people read anymore? Yes Echo is elite, but look closely at the skills he proposed.  Echo isn't one of them.  You got Echo in there by using Arcane Mimicry on an ally using Echo.  Still, its a lot of work to go through just to try to keep one skill up.&mdash; [[Image:Azroth sig.png||builds]] Azroth  [[Image:Azroth sig2.png||talk]]  23:44, 10 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Yes it is a lot of work, i'm just suggesting possibilities, i doubt it'd ever take off.. and a simple interrupt would kill the whole thing. Terrifi Cani 14:54, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Echoing forms is useless, to get any advantage out of echoing a form your Mysticism would have to be at either 1 or 0, due to the time constraints created by Echo. At this level of Mysticism, between both the skill and its echo, you could spend, at most, 36 seconds in a given form. More time in any form could be achieved, and at a cheaper cost, by simply raising Mysticism to 6, at which point forms last 39 seconds.. --KeeseroGuan 22:51, 22 November 2006 (CST)
 * It's called "waiting until the echo is about to run out before casting it". It works well with things like Spell Breaker. With the right spells and equipment and timing you get only a few seconds down time with it. I think the plan would work, and no it's not too complicated. Might be good for two-man running teams (if there would be such a thing). --Armond Warblade (talk)
 * Doh, I just saw what I was missing. Still, an increase in 18 seconds from 83 to 101 isn't, in my opinion, all that substantial, especially when you consider the downtime required to get everything set up again. --KeeseroGuan 12:35, 23 November 2006 (CST)
 * Keep in mind that the form doesn't actually take effect until the end of casting - thus, an extra 20 seconds per echo (assuming Echo lasts 20 seconds - I haven't read the skill in a while, it could be more), meaning an extra 40-ish seconds. And apologies for my snippyness earlier, jetlag is evil. --Armond Warblade (talk) 14:54, 23 November 2006 (CST)
 * Echo lasts 30 seconds, so you're really buffing the time up by 50 seconds if you time it right. --Armond Warblade (talk) 14:55, 23 November 2006 (CST)
 * Don't worry about the snippiness, I don't mind, and we all get like that sometimes. Yeah, I just re-read the Echo article. Can you tell I don't use the skill much? --KeeseroGuan 20:03, 23 November 2006 (CST)

Nerf
I reckon this is going to be hugely nerfed when they balance the nightfall skills, probably a much, much lower effective time. So I really don't think that it's worth developing a build for it -Sakan 07:17, 9 November 2006 (CST)

So it gives it same armor as warrior... so? --Silk Weaker 07:41, 9 November 2006 (CST)

So your argument is, "There's no point using this because in my expert opinion it will surely be nerfed"? All the Forms last the same amount of time, and this isn't even the most potent (I'd name Avatar of Melandru for that, and its Energy cost is appropriately higher). Quite apart from that, the Forms turn you into a vessel of divine might. They're supposed to be powerful. :P Arshay Duskbrow 13:01, 9 November 2006 (CST)


 * Oh I think it's definitely worth using, I just don't think that I'll put in as much effort designing a dervish build around it as I did for builds with my other characters, because the dervish is going to cop some massive pain from ANet in the next skills update. As far as Melandru vs Balthazar goes, they're for very different things. For general usage though, I much prefer AoB, and it's fantastic for slapping rotscale and his cronies around. -Sakan 04:52, 10 November 2006 (CST)