User talk:Tupu/Build Archive/Build:Team - "Steel Wall" Deep Group

Rate-a-build
Please test and vote on 

Tested:
 * 1) this is my alliance's build. i've played, and finished, every role in this build. got an axe and an edge too! --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 17:42, 7 August 2006 (CDT)
 * 2) Hmm...have run a few times with variations, but I have to say it works. I like having one SS and one BiP instead of the two utility necros.  But no greens for me...yet! We did finish the mission, just no greens for me... good build...makes the deep a lot safer. Windtalker 02:27, 16 August 2006 (CDT)
 * 3) Boring but it works. 'Nuff said. I'm open to tweaking individual bits of this later, too, but this is a good general "anyone can do this" build. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 01:00, 9 September 2006 (CDT)
 * 4) I still think the warriors could be improved a LOT, though. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 01:01, 9 September 2006 (CDT)

Unfavoured:
 * 1) (your vote here)

Discussion
Why is there mention of prophecies only characters when it is about a Factions elite mission?! -- Shard 1:42, 18 february 2007

i had intended to make this a lot cleaner, but the elite event forced my hand. kinda ugly right now. i've got an edge and an axe that prove this works. TS or Vent helps with timing and walls. --Honorable Sarah 21:16, 4 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Appreciate it. Not sure if I'll get to test it this weekend, but will bring it up with my alliance-mates. :) To approve as "tested" do we need to run exactly this build or will a few small variants work? I'm asking as a specific here since this team build is enormous... testing it exactly seems like it would be difficult. --Kryshnysh 21:31, 4 August 2006 (CDT)
 * i'm too lazy to write variants, but there are a few. ritual lord instead of monk, 4th elementalist instead of monk, stuff like that. things to NOT change: heal party, extinguish, the ENTIRE necromancer bar. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 21:38, 4 August 2006 (CDT)

What is the core of the build, Sarah? Off the top of my head, I have seen the 3 tank approach reduced to 2, I have seen one or two trappers per group. I have always seen a bipper. And from real life experience, you NEVER take 2 SS necros. Just not needed and will mostly be poorly played. Maybe get the other necro as a BiP or FoC necro. Also, if you have 2 SS necros, then your Eles will have little time to kill anything, so Elemental Attunement and "long battles" is not the way to go. --Karlos 19:48, 5 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Just regarding the Ele Attunement part, I belive that's just a miswording. I believe it's meant to be replaced with "in case of long battles". &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 19:55, 5 August 2006 (CDT)
 * core? i dont know, there are a lot of ways to finish the deep. i've not seen two tanks, that seems a bit risky. kinda hard to body block with two. BiP seems to be a good way to die in the last few rooms, and a dead necromancer does no one any good. my alliance modified this with three monks and four nukers after about the 10th run, but the three monks all have to be coordinated. this is the safest combination. the coordination between the warriors is very important. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 21:05, 5 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Core means, how is the party killing its foes. I guess you answered that with the modification you mentioned. So, the back line is killing. The reason I ask that is because it's important that your tanks actually not attack in many situations so as not to be pulled after a running attacker. Therefore, occupying the skill bar with offensive skills may not be efficient. --Karlos 02:27, 6 August 2006 (CDT)
 * the elementalist are the major damage dealers, necromancers are secondary, and the offensive skills on the warriors are primarily for the first four rooms where the group is split. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 02:31, 6 August 2006 (CDT)

Just wanted to say that I managed to get into a group that used this setup last night and it worked well. Just make it very very very clear to your team not to attack oni with weapons at all. Silly warriors sometimes get this urge to take a stab something as they stand around "doing nothing." Also, since many people take liberties towards what skills to actually take, make sure someone does have enchantment removal before fighting Kanaxai. Our only enchantment removal was on a necro who left mid way, making the last battle very very long. --Thervold 17:10, 7 August 2006 (CDT)
 * the first draft had a 24 point flashing red bold warning that read "never ever change the necromancer build, ever, seriously, you will die.", but i think the current incarnation is a bit more polite. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 17:35, 7 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Sounds like something you would do. :) But seriously, it's extremely annoying when the only way to keep his enchantment off was to interrupt it. And the only interrupts the team has are the warrior knockdowns (only two of us warriors had effective kd, Bane Signet doesn't work) and Meteor Shower. And since Kanaxai likes to knock down his target (namely me), I often missed the Shove interrupt. The necro had SS and blood ritual, but I don't know what else. Definitely not shivers or any form of enchantment removal. --Thervold 18:11, 7 August 2006 (CDT)
 * that's about the whole reason my aliance started using two identical support necromancers. if one disconnected, the other could still strip enchantments. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 10:22, 8 August 2006 (CDT)

It says there are no variations for the necromancers. I don not understand this when you have reskless haste on the bar. i have never seen that as a nessisary skill. It could easily be replaced with Awaken the blood or something else that is more useful. the extra blood ritual sacrafice should not be a problem if the monks are spamming heal party.--Coloneh 18:55, 28 September 2006 (CDT)

Hey what about having the warrior use bonnettis defense?--Shade Murtagh 21:40, 27 October 2006 (CDT)

Wow, is there a single other build out there that can finish The Deep?

Grammar
Since this isn't a Talk page, I'd suggest, Sarah, that you capitalize the words properly. Just quality control, that's all. :) &mdash; Rapta   (talk|contribs) 22:00, 4 August 2006 (CDT)
 * you type all that text in two hours, from memory, with 97 people messaging you for build advice and see how well you do, mr. smart-boy.  I  did my best. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 22:04, 4 August 2006 (CDT)
 * That doesn't mean that the words should not follow simple grammar rules. I'm not saying that you didn't do enough work, but I have noticed that many main-page edits you've made have not been following that. It was merely a suggestion, since this Wiki is a GW specialty site, the articles written should be typed to the best of quality. And as I stated, it was just a suggestion. There's no need to start name-calling. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 22:11, 4 August 2006 (CDT)
 * i said it was very ugly. i'm working on making it prettier now. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 12:28, 5 August 2006 (CDT)

We did a deep run today, but in place of one of the Necromancers, we had a Wastrel's Worry Mesmer, with a Necromancer Secondary, of course. It was much better at Kanaxai, with a mere 1 second duration on the hex, allowed the Mesmer to deal constant damage by just spamming that, even more than a Nuker was able to dish out. &mdash; Rapta   (talk|contribs) 17:17, 7 August 2006 (CDT)

Nine-manning it with a similar build.
A group I run with has been able to 9-man the Deep pretty easily: It works pretty well. We get through the place in about 70 minutes. Very high success rate unless someone drops (depending on the person, we're either boned or it's 50-50). &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 17:23, 29 August 2006 (CDT)
 * 3 tanks:
 * Generally we opt for more energy-based attacks than in this team build, and more defensive skills overall. Endure Pain generally seems to be more useful than emergencies Res Signet for emergencies. We also like to use Distracting Blow to interrupt enemies (good against Outcast and Mantas, and handy if you can't keep Spinal Shivers up on Kanaxai). Only one guy has Sever/Gash, at most.
 * At least 2 warrior should be W/As. You can bring pretty much anything you want for the third warrior, as long as it's defense-heavy. I use W/Me because Physical Resistance is really good in the Deep, and support the party with Protector's Defense and Watch Yourself (it's very nice to run up to a monk and give him a few seconds of protection so he can cast a big heal or two before having to retreat from the enemy, and PD really helps the other warriors out, too). I basically just have Shove and Final Thrust for offense.
 * 3 healers:
 * 3 monks with Heal Party, Healing Seed, and usually Orison and Heal Other. Mo/Me or Mo/N using their elites for energy management.
 * 3 nukers/utility casters:
 * 1 SS necro with BR, WoB, and Shivers. Optionally some enchantment removal as well. The BR is mostly necessary for sustained fights or in Kanaxai's lair, where the monks have to spam HP. Pretty much like the posted build.
 * 1 elementalist with MS, Immolate, Fireball, &c. Using Glyph of Renewal for slower but more consistent damage output.
 * 1 ritualist. A mixture of offensive and defensive spirits (you use the offensive ones to help build the wall). Can AE-res using ashes. It's kind of hard to describe how this guy works, especially since I don't have a ritualist myself,

Utility necros
Anon said the following right under the skill bar for the utility necros - will put in italics for ease of reading.

 ****Updated 

''As orchestrated as it is, there seems to be a glaring error in there to me;

''After reading this build I dont see the point of Spinal Shivers in there as this skill is used as an interupt. From the look of the rest of this build, having Shivers in the necro bar is a wasted skill slot. Shivers will only work when the foe thats affected with Shivers is hit with cold dmg. From reading the rest of the build no one else does cold damage. To make full use of this skill, you should have your warriors using a cold damage upgrade on their weapons. Although the necro energy then may become a bit of an issue. Alternately the winter spirit on Rangers works well to change all ele dmg to cold damage.

''Personally as good a skill as Shivers is, in this build as it is it is useless and I would take something else to save on energy issues. After reading this article it appears that Shivers is used to interupt the monks. Not sure how to replace what Shivers is intended for on the necro if your warriors aren't using cold based weapons with. Although if your want to stop the monks blocking/evading then something like Rigor Mortis instead would perhaps will the slot better.''

Comments? I've not tried this build, so I can't say much (only watching for kicks...), though I think s/he may have a point. Unless it's a cover hex or something. --Armond Warblade (talk) 00:05, 25 November 2006 (CST)


 * I think that Spinal Shivers is an excellent skill when used correctly. I just went through The Deep again today.  From what I noticed, the SS (other necro was BIP) only used Spinal Shivers on Kanaxi.  All three W/A has icy weapons, so it pretty much shut down Kanaxi (though it's only two skills...), after we got into the flow of things.  I'd assume that the BIP was being generous with health sacrificing for the SS as well.  However, there was also a time in the past that only one W/A had an icy weapon, so it was useless.  It'd involve a bit of new build for the SS necromancer, but a skill that does damage based on enchantments and possibly also stripping it would be interesting, but many tend to have long recast times.  I was about to suggest Faintheartedness, Meekness, or Shadow of Fear, but that would make the SS less useful, so those are out... Pae 03:15, 1 December 2006 (CST)


 * The Shivers necro doesn't need any support from the bipper. Unless he decides to join the fight on Kanaxai, normally the ele do their job well enough. The ss just makes sure to keep shivers on Kanaxai and at least 2 of the 3 warriors carry icy weapons and no skill will come through. Some curses staffes also do cold damage (like the Staff of the Forgotten from the end of Nightfall, or Villnar's Staff), so the ss Necro can join the interrupting. With the quite fast recharging seal from the soul reaping line (Signet of Lost Souls) he even can gain energy and health once Kanaxai is below 50% health and even cast ss on him (or haste). But that's not that important. Unlike what the artcile about the build says, the ss necro has every flexible build, he doesn't even need ss. ^^ A shiver skill (Spinal Shivers or Shivers of Dread), something to strip enchantment (curses line has enough, e.g. Rip Enchantment), Blood Ritual and rez (I use rebirth)... those 4 are needed, rest is up to team or necro. SS is just common since you are levelled high on curses for shivers anyway. Noone takes a ss necro in the team for the ss damage, because an additional ele would do better ;) --Birchwooda Treehug 16:55, 12 February 2007 (CST)

E/Me Heavy Nuker Minor Tweak?
I used to use the build as listed (replaced Meteor with Breath of Fire), but Mark of Rodgort replaced it after the skill changed to also affect adjacent enemies. I usually cast both attunements, Arcane Echo, Meteor Shower, Mark of Rodgort, then opt for either Meteor Shower again or go to Fireball, depending on the group and monster. The build is made so that the Ele doesn't run out of energy, unless something happens to the enchantments, but it's nice to wand be able to wand something to death (not Oni, of course) when even Fireball would be overkill. I'm not sure if the degen helps more or not, though. It'd also probably be best that only one nuker on the team had it on the skillbar. Pae 03:22, 1 December 2006 (CST)
 * You're welcome to list Mark of Rodgort as a varitation and the reasoning you've written above (although perhaps in a more concise form) in the article ;) Totally revamping a tested build is generally a no no unless others agree it's a good change but adding a variation isn't such a big deal. --Xasxas256 00:51, 2 December 2006 (CST)
 * I was thinking of just listing it in the section where alternatives are listed (like where Breath of Fire is), rather than an entire variation, since it's a slight one. Pae 01:16, 2 December 2006 (CST)

Replace Heal Party monk with Light of Delivernce monk?
Need I really say anything more? It sure looks like this monk was made to spam HP, and LoD does that a lot faster and more energy-efficiently... Replace WoH with Heal Other, healing unconditionally for the same ammount as the conditional heal and for only five more energy... Or just replace WoH with LoD for when the party's above 80% hp? What do you people think? Armond


 * I've been using another variant: healers boon with glyph of lesser energy. Heal party heals for around 126 instead of LoD's 85 at 16 heal prayers. E-management is not really an issue if your bipper is good.
 * LOD will only work when allies are below 80% health. With two other monks all spamming Heal Party, that's going to be a rare occurence. --Warwulf 18:35, 3 March 2007 (CST)

Varient
I've found a slightly more effective varient to be the following:

W/As - Keep them roughly the same.

Elementalists - Switch them over to a general E/Mo SF nuker, with Mark of Rodgort to maintain constant burning. Also, take Glyph of Sacrifice & Ressurection Chant for mid-fight ressing.

Monks - Switch 3 over to Light of Deliverance instead of WoH. The 4th can stay the same, or be changed to Healer's Boon. This makes party healing much more efficient.

Necros - Keep one with the same build, change the other over to BiP. This will allow the SF Nukers to maintain energy in certain rooms (Room 7, for example). Also, BiP allows much more spamming of Heal Party / Light of Deliverance.

In certain Rooms:

Change the setup to Monk/War/Ele in Rooms 1, 3, and 4. Put both Necros and a Monk in Room 2, to wait for the rest of the team to kill the Aspect of Pain.

Since BiP actually does better with DP, let them be one of the sacrifices in Room 6.

Zerris 12:38, 10 February 2007 (CST)

Reckless Haste
under Reckless Haste it says that it is a factions skill and prophecies characters should switch it for something else. if they are in the deep, won't they have access to that skill?Blaster 19:38, 17 February 2007 (CST)
 * Maybe the player hasn't bought it yet or something, that's a fair excuse. &mdash; [[Image:Fin_sig.gif|User:Kyrasantae]] kyrasantae   19:55, 17 February 2007 (CST)
 * it just seemed odd to me is all, because it can be unlocked in kaineng center, so even if it is a prophecies or nightfall char, they can unlock it in the first place they get to in factionsBlaster 09:18, 18 February 2007 (CST)
 * What if the Prophecies character hasn't unlocked Awaken the Blood either? :P I'd say keep the AtB as a variant, but remove the bit about prophecies not having RH since it's just plain silly. They have ample opportunity to get it along the way (from the first city they ever get to in Factions).--Warwulf 20:09, 19 February 2007 (CST)

Signet of Return
Might make sense to have 1-2 people go with a Paragon secondary to bring this the Signet of Return... useful if someone drops while in the aspect of failure. It's a hard res, and not a spell. Yamagawa 02:01, 20 February 2007 (CST)
 * The area which contains the aspect of failure is probably the best place that demonstrates the power of the steel wall group because you have a small gap, making it easier to wall it up, preventing anyone from dying. If someone dies in that area, you've done something wrong by either letting a caster go in before the majority of the mobs have been killed or not standing in the right places, so I don't see the point of it (especially since all the builds that have a secondary profession require it). --220.233.103.77 02:54, 20 February 2007 (CST)

I realize they tend to be unfavored, however with the new buffs to Assassins, they need to be placed into the general variants area, so as to not be rebuffed by people that use this solely warriors build. I state this because I have literally seen Assassins (not myself...I'm no good as a Assassin), do better than quite a few warriors down here. However, you get a "Steel Wall" team going and they automatically eliminate what may be a darned good Assassin, just do to the fact that they are following this team build.
 * The problem lies in The Deep itself. The majority of it is very anti-melee or anti-enchantments, so an Assassin is likely to be more of a liability than a help. Without knowing the Assassin personally, there is no way to verify that they are indeed a good Assassin, so the majority of people will stick to this tried and true build. --220.233.103.77 09:17, 1 March 2007 (CST)

Sorry for placing it under the Paragon Signet of Return discussion. I will attempt to find out, from the good Assassins that I have seen down there, what build they are using so that I may try to add it to the variants subject.