Talk:Assassin

At least the source of information should be mentioned. Is it an interview? Frog Talk? Got any website url? If we got nothing like this, then this files under "rumor" and shouldn't be GuildWiki. --Tetris L 14:12, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Uhm ... I see ... it's on the GWOnline.net news. --Tetris L 14:17, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
 * It's been confirmed by Gaile Gray and Alex Weekes.

Guild-hall Message Boards. They occaisionally visit these forums. --Chuiu 17:57, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Copyright issues
I have concerns about posting a magazine's "exclusive" content on a free open-for-all license site like a wiki. I do NOT think Play Magazine would welcome this. I am trying to get in contact with them to confirm. If anyone knows an e-mail I can use, please post it here. --Karlos 17:40, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

UPDATE: I found their website and posted a question to them. Will keep you posted. --Karlos 17:45, 16 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't be concerned. It can be written off as being used for educational purposes.  We're putting out information for general public knowledge. --Chuiu 17:57, 16 November 2005 (UTC)


 * But we are violating the "exclusivness" of the article. The fact that it's a page scan from the magazine makes it an obvious redistribution of their material without their consent. --Karlos 20:15, 16 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree, posting the article verbatum and/or posting a scan of the page like that is a copyright violation. I doubt this would be considered as "educational purposes."  The fact that the person who owns/rents this server is in the USA means that it falls under US jurisdiction for copyright laws.  --Rainith 20:23, 16 November 2005 (UTC)


 * So is paraphrasing information from the article without actually quoting it okay? The talk page and the note in the article only talk about quoting the article verbatim, without anything explicit for or against paraphrasing, but when I paraphrased some of the information from the article it got reverted.


 * Revealing details like the Conclave and dual-wielding (if it's true) is basically revealing the article. You thikn people actually care that he had her take off her mask that she never takes off elsewhere? :) Also, the article in no way implied that she is Canthan. That was speculation. --Karlos 09:01, 18 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Okay, I updated the note to include the thing about not revealing information from the article. According to my dictionary, imply means "to express or indicate indirectly". The description of her homeland is completely consistent with what we know about the Canthan Empire. Maybe she's not Canthan, it's entirely possible that the lore takes place in Orr during the last Guild War, or in some other nation we haven't heard of, but the simplest conclusion to draw is that the unnamed nation is Cantha.


 * Agree too, considering the new lore isn't even on the official GW site yet. I think we should remove the lore (and perhaps even the art scan) until it becomes available on the official GW site, OR if GuildWiki received explicit permission from the Play Magazine to put up the content.  On the other hand, the transcript will still be semi-available from GuildWiki if anyone is smart enough to check the history... not sure how that can be handled... -PanSola 20:28, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I'd still rather this not be here at all until it is actually in the game; posted a note about that over on the Talk:Profession page, but apparently it went unnoticed. Nunix 22:09, 16 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm with Nunix on this, I know Gaile confirmed that that assassin is going to be one of the new professions availble in Chapter 2 but until Chapter 2 comes out or until we get some more information it's probably best not to add it to the actual professions --William Blackstaff 03:12, 17 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Eh, Nunix, you made it sound like it WAS added to the profession article, when it isn't (I even checked the history to make sure it wasn't added and later removed)... As for this article itself, the content made it abundently clear that it's not a profession in the current game.  If Anet decided to scratch this profession idea in the future, we'll just modify the article accordingly ("The Assassin was originally intended ad a new profession for Chapter 2...").  Thus I think the existence of this article itself isn't a problem.

Sooo, if we keep this, we should make a Pirate article as well. --Xeeron 04:48, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
 * is that another Chapter 2 profession confirmed by Anet? I haven't heard about it. -PanSola 05:39, 17 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Pirate was posted on the GameFAQs boards, but then someone pointed out some typos in the text and someone else pointed out that the picture was from some other site. Soooo, last I saw it looked like it was a PhotoShop job and not real.  --Rainith 11:52, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

"Confirmation"...
Considering "New Profession Revealed" is also on the guild wars official website, isn't it more direct to reference that as a confirmation, as opposed to referencing another fansite... I feel like we should either just refernece the official site, or mention every single fan site where Gaile or another Anet personnel confirmed it, as opposed to arbitarily pick one fansite (GWOnline) to reference and not the other(s) (Guild-Hall and potetially others). --PanSola 12:00, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Do assassins also have access to ch. 1?
Does anyone know if we can re-play chapter 1 as an assassin? It might be fun to go through the storyline one more time, but I can't be assed to do it with any of the current profs. &mdash; Stabber (talk) 18:15, 29 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I would expect the answer to be "no." My hypothesis is based on the new "stealth" feature, which presumably will allow players to sneak past groups. This will completely change the dynamic of most of the missions in the first chapter. Imagine if an Assassin can sneak all the ay up Iron Mines of Moladune and kill Markis and save everyone the headache. :) --Karlos 21:57, 29 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Except Markis is so strong the assassin can't kill him in one hit and thus gets herself killed instead after the first strike? d-: -PanSola 22:20, 29 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Or they give every other class some way to detect stealthed assassins (and it' probably won't work since markis has those jade guards....coward!)--William Blackstaff 23:52, 29 November 2005 (UTC)


 * An Assassin doing that kind of thing would have a solo build. First of all, if you are careful you can lure Markis without his entourage. And Markis is a wuss, I have kicked his butt thoroughly each time I completed that mission. --Karlos 02:26, 30 November 2005 (UTC)


 * If stealth shrinks your aggro bubble and makes it so you can only be seen and targetted within a certain range in PVP then it wouldn't really break chapter one. They could also balance it by giving some monsters a detecter skill.

Profession Icon
This is the original profession icon, straight from the Priest of Balthazar's skill unlocking menu. Three crossed daggers. It looks crappy, but should do for now. Somebody with better graphics skills than me get on the task of turning this into a decent GuildWiki icon please. :) I'll try myself, but I'm afraight the result won't look any better than the original. -- 12:12, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I have the feeling that the real icon is colored and will be shown today when the factions preview starts. Might want to wait for that. --Xeeron 04:55, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The icon stayed the same. I'll upload it as a PNG, for temporary use. I think the final GuildWiki version should be colored red/purple, like all the Assassin skill icons. -- 15:46, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Chained Dual Dagger Attacks
Is Assassin the best place to explain about Chained Dual Dagger Attacks? Or should we move it to Dagger or Dagger Mastery or maybe even make it a separate article? -- 11:20, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

- Hmm. Normally getting all the info in one page seems resonable, but chained attacks are a pretty basic concept. I'd say separate article. --Xeeron 16:33, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Dagger attacks I think, as a skill type -PanSola 17:13, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd suggest to create an article Dagger Attack (we already have a category Dagger Attacks) based on the text from Assassin, then merge Lead Attack, Off-Hand Attack and Dual Attack into it and make those redirects. -- 04:20, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Dance move listed
Do we have a source for the claim of "The male Assassin's dance will be the robot"? --161.88.255.139 02:08, 17 March 2006 (CST)


 * Yes, the video of the male Assassin doing the robot. Umm, here is a link to it, and the thread about the Factions Backstage Pass party is here.--Epinephrine 02:28, 17 March 2006 (CST)
 * That works for me! I saw the added bit in the article, but hadn't seen the clips yet. --161.88.255.140 02:29, 17 March 2006 (CST)
 * Strange from what I saw at the backstage pass party, it didn't look like the robot, but well, looking at that video nevermind, I'll revert it back. --Rainith 02:34, 17 March 2006 (CST)
 * EDIT - and well there was an open bar at the party, so.... --Rainith 02:36, 17 March 2006 (CST)

but what is the females dance doesn't quite look like the robot though the males certainly is. bomb chelle/ not logged on

Change secondary
How do you change to an Assassin secondary class? The class pages should contain this information.
 * Look at the bottom of secondary profession. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 22:30, 25 June 2006 (CDT) )

Speed rumor
According to Talk:Dragon_Nest assassins run slightly faster than other characters. Can someone with an assassin or a free pvp slot test this? -- Gordon Ecker 21:30, 4 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm not even sure how to test it if it is only slightly faster. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 23:05, 4 July 2006 (CDT)
 * The Assassin is not faster. it runs at the exact same speed as everyone else. I was pretty sure of it even before i went and tested it. but i couldn't catch up to the master of survival in the isle of the nameless. Also i have no idea why anyone would come up with such a rumor. there would be no reason to have one class be faster than all the others.

Assasin Armour / Tanking
in th article it stats the assassin armour highest being 70 if this is to be taken true (i dont have factions yet) then it is FIFTEEN below warriors (see grotto and granite armours, they are 85 AL. so is obsidian) PLEASE STOP CHANGING THIS BACK TO TEN!!! Marneus A Calgar 08:31, 11 August 2006 (CDT)

Um, assassins get 70 AL and then 15+ vs Blunt,(or) slashing,(or)while attacking...and this is available on 1.5k armor as well. soooo you're insane GGOnlyashadow 08:52, 11 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Warrior_armor States that Max base armour is 80. This may be the cause of the confusion.  I'm sure someone with a warrior that far in the game can verify / clarify. --JP 08:57, 11 August 2006 (CDT)

EDIT: sorry I thought you were freaking out over something else...BTW Warriors have many different types of AL, Glad has 80, dragon has 90, and sentinal has 100...1.5k and above all armor has the same stats. I suggest we take out that pointless sentence since it is circumstancial and if someone can't tell 70 is below 80-90-100 that means they probably can't read the rest of the wiki.Onlyashadow 08:58, 11 August 2006 (CDT)

Removing the pointless note and ending the arguement.Onlyashadow 09:00, 11 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Sorry I disagree. I do not feel that the note is pointless. The core concept is that Assasin armour is significantly weaker than that of the warrior. Perhapse a more general note to this effect could be added. --JP 09:05, 11 August 2006 (CDT)

Although I still feel anyone that can't figure out 70 < 80+ shouldn't be on the internet, this does happen. How about "Assassin armor is weaker than warrior armor in terms of AL, but it boasts conditional bonuses such as: (list)Onlyashadow 09:09, 11 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I will try and come up with something sutable over the weekend, if nobody does so before me! --JP 09:21, 11 August 2006 (CDT)

Assassin/Ninja
It says in the text that the Assassin has a Ninja kind of taste... This may be true and all, but the reason why it was named an Assassin is simply because that's what an Assassin is for. Go in, Assassinate someone (a caster, most of the times), get out, and find another target.Alot of people wonder how to become an Assassin those people have to play the game to find out.
 * Ninjas in a way "assassinate" people. This is how some people may think of the situation here. Assassins and Ninjas are VERY different in reality. Anet knows this. They choose to appeal to the majority of idiots who think Assassin = Ninja to satisfy them. This is pretty much shown with their appearance and characteristics in a campaign with an Asian type theme. --NYC Elite 11:14, 16 March 2007 (CDT)

Assassins after Nightfall
Here's a quote from preview event description: ...The event will allow players to create Nightfall-specific characters from the six core professions as well as the two new Nightfall professions... Does this mean Assassins will get no development after Nightfall release?


 * You cant create an assassin outside of cantha, but they just stated that all old classes will get new skills in Nightfall (not only the 6 core classes), so they are doing more for assassins than most people expected. --Xeeron 03:56, 21 September 2006 (CDT)


 * As you can read on the Hero page there is a Assassin Hero so there are Assassins on Elonia. -- Tomoko


 * That Assassin Hero is actually from Cantha not Elonia. You acquire her by K-Center.--209.33.58.49 21:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)Trice


 * Yes, as NPCs or immigrants from Cantha... You can't create a native Elonian Assassin. LavaEdge324 [[Image:Assassin-icon-small.png]] 20:16, 3 January 2007 (CST)

I'm seeing the new Dervish profession as a good secondary for assassins, using magic to defend. 75.1.243.164 05:13, 28 October 2006 (CDT)

Something i would find helpful
Would be to put links to all the elite skills and also skill quick reference, however i dont know how 82.9.230.246 12:45, 14 January 2007 (CST)

Assassin vs Rogue
I think they come from the popular Rogue class. -- S i  g  m  A   12:29, 6 February 2007 (CST)


 * No shit Sherlock. Bug [[Image:Brown_stink_bug_adult_copy.png|19px]] 09:09, 25 February 2007 (CST)

Speed rumor
assassins run the same speed as everything eles they just look like there faster cus when they run there body kind of curves to one side


 * Hogwash. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 01:27, 26 February 2007 (CST)

knock down
Sometimes it seems they have knock down reduction. But i think its just the getting up sequence is much faster but delayed. Any1 test?
 * Rubbish.. &mdash; Skuld 14:10, 12 March 2007 (CDT)
 * They start their getup animations a little sooner (Easy to check when hit by Juggernauts. My female stayed hunched over in the ground for 3 seconds and took a full two seconds to do a gorgeous flip that put her back on her feet, ready to kick some more ass)

Factions Guidebook
Thats a summary of the profession by ANet themselves. I was wondering if it was worth doing to all profession pages? 76.166.205.40 04:49, 24 July 2007 (CDT)

Armor Rating
I've always heard that assassins have got bad armor. But when I check this I see that it has the same AL as a Ranger and a Dervish. Why is it that this armor "isn't good"?
 * Because they're melee with barely any good skills to enhance being in melee (ie survivability). Rangers attack from range and Dervishes have a ton of enchantments to work with for melee, or even just Avatar of Balthazar/Melandru to make up for being 70 armor. --Kale Ironfist 08:28, 26 July 2007 (CDT)

Ok, thanks
 * Bull. With the Nightstalker's insignia you have 85 armor when attacking. Which is almost constantly. With enchantments like Shroud of Distress, Critical Defence, Assassin's Remedy, Way of Perfection, and in PvE Critical Agility the assassin is anything but weak.
 * Running to attack does not equal attacking. Even with speed buffs, you only spend 1/2 of the time attacking. 67.162.10.70 09:32, 26 July 2007 (CDT)
 * If you spend oly 1/2 your time attacking your doing something wrong. Like not having someone bring a snare. Done25 09:49, 26 July 2007 (CDT)
 * If you are a shadow prison sin, the total time you spend actually stabbing with your daggers is definitely not worth Nightstalker's insignia. If you are a Moebius sin and there's a water ele with 66% snares, then it's more than 1/2 agreed. But really, the same thing can be said about warriors, with brawler's insignia, they get a beastly 110 armor against physical damage while attacking without the help of skills. 67.162.10.70 10:25, 26 July 2007 (CDT)
 * But we aren't talking about warrior. Shadow Prison sucks. And warriors have 126 armor against physical. 80+20+10+16
 * Wow you use a shield? Shields are for the weak! Hammer or focus is the way to go!

Help
I am making a guide for wiki.guildwars at:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Guide_to_playing_an_assassin

Anyone care to help?

Just a little ranting
I see no reason to create a male assassin. Their hairstyles are dreadful, their faces are goofy, their armor is comparable to what you would buy at a costume store, they stand like they are down-syndromed and run like they're drunk. Just wanted to get that off my chest.

LIES! ALL SCANDALOUS LIES!--70.176.247.196 18:05, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Best runners evar?
It seems that Assassins have excellent running skills. Dash makes them move 50% faster, far better than the Warrior's Sprint or Charge which only allows 25% speed. Also, Assasin/Mesmer is like invincible because of Shadow Form and Arcane Echo. Are sins really the best runners in all of GW?
 * Ahem... Dash lasts... yea. 3 seconds with no hope of increasing that time. Dervish/Assassin's are the best runners ever


 * Ahem, Dwarven Stability. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]]-- (s)talkpage 20:33, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Assassins CAN tank, believe it or not.
This may sound like blasphemy, and someone has probably made this point before, but Assassins (in the hands of someone who actually knows what they are doing) CAN tank in PvE! Critical Eye + Locust's Fury + Critical Defenses + Critical Agility makes you darn near invincible, and you can always throw in a condition recovery in case you get blinded. The only counter is enchantment removal, and not many enemies (in my experience) have that in PvE. It's a shame that sins get a bad rap because everyone wanted to be one when Factions came out. Now that it's a year and a half after that unfortunate incident, we need to move on and understand that no class is ever unnecessary.


 * Because you find a 4 skill combo that's better than many doesn't mean than, generally speaking, the Assassin is on par with other classes. First, one of your skill requires Nightfall, which is not the place were Assassins come from ; it also requires a good sunspear track, which you won't have in the middle of your first game... Not to mention an elite that isn't among the firsts you'll get. Basically, a sound profession is not one that depends on having/using three or four specific skills (thus locking it on that combo or be useless). I'd rather say that Assassin are globaly weak, but that this specific combo (if that's your style -btw, why should I have 12 in critical ???-) place him on par with other classes.Yves 12:48, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Please correct me if everyone's sentiments have already switched the other way, but I get the feeling that Mesmers, Paragons, and Assassins are still severely underrated. Especially Mesmers. :( Silver40596 19:31, 21 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd not say that for Paragons ; they're very strong : ranged attacks with armor / shield like a warrior, plus a wide array of skills, either for personnal attack, healing or party wide support : no, Paragons are definitely NOT weak. I'd say that they are overlooked by most players. Their versatility is their weakness : nobody sees exactly where they fit in.Yves 12:48, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't believe that any of the classes are weak. I've played with every one of them, and its just a matter of your playstyle and your set-up/build. My sin is my favorite player by far because of the ability to spike, apply many conditions, or both. My mesmer is set up as a MeMo with smiting prayers and signets. I tend to either lead into battle or be the 2nd or 3rd one there. So I made my mesmer in a way where I can still play the waythat fits me best. But to get to the main point, every prof is great in some way, its just the way that you use them to benefit your style of playing.---silentbp 08-22-08

Update - Tuesday, November 13, 2007
Bye bye Hex Sins. --Lann 01:12, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * You mean bye bye sins- all our methods of getting off quick combos were nerfed... glass cannon to glass water gun is an accurate way to describe this nerf... --Kalas Silvern 07:55, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Back to Death Blossom + Moebius spammers. Or Seeping Wound!!!!!one [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:03, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Not that badly nerfed.. my sin never used hex, Critical Strike + Moebius + Death Blossom + Mystic regen + Critical Defences + Critical Agility ftw xD Warwick (Talk) (Contr.) 08:06, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Sins ruin every game. --69.133.105.149 05:57, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Wished Anet was a bit more creative.
Somewhere between Prophecies and Factions, Anet lost the creative spark and settled for generic skills that were all just different flavored versions of existing ones. I really wished Anet would have tried for more unique elites [instead of obscure or very generic elites such as Way of the Assassin/Way of the Fox], such as, perhaps a Elite Lead attack that didn't do any +dmg, but worked like Hundred Blades, hitting all adjacent foes and applying a lead mark to all of them. Shattering Assault could be a bit more assault-ish, maybe that it reapplies itself for every two enchantment that the foe has [so a MR tank or bonder with 4 enchantments gets hit 4 times and all enchantments are removed]. Wished there were more 'hey neat' Elites like Temple Strike instead of novelty skills like Assault Enchantments.

Of course, this is all in retrospect and now with the end of the GW1 generation, we're not going to see much love from Anet until GW2 ships. 71.50.205.130 18:21, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * That lead thing you mentioned wouldn't work with the game mechanics, if you apply a mark to someone when you have one on someone else, the one on the other person disappears. But yeah, I wish they had some more creativity. And that Izzy would balance crap out faster (took HOW long to fix SP, and AoM is still running insanely strong...). And make skills not useless (PnH anyone?) --Gimmethegepgun 18:28, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
 * PnH isn't useless if you cast it on the entire backline of healers. Now, Power Shot - there's useless for you.
 * Assassins do tend to rely on certain sets of skills more than any other class, but I think that is just because they lack a lot of good, balanced skills. Like Gimme says - Izzy needs to work on it. For example, someone could complain, "Why do all Sins run Unsuspecting/Wild/Blossom? Uncreative noobs!" But, to be honest, there aren't many viable or efficient attack chains out there. ANet probably thought it was totally clever how with different leads, offhands, and duals, you could potentially come up with...hundreds of attack chains. But, that idea failed because of bad skills like Fox Fangs, Desperate Strike, Mark of Instability, and a noticable lack of good Elites, which are all simply inferior to the more popular skills. When you make a single Assassin skill unviable, that eliminates much more than just one possible attack chain. It takes out several. This is why the Assassin seems uncreative...at least in my opinion. Not enough good skills. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:28, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * It seems to me that Anet got one cool chain idea, and simply made up other skills around that attack chain. Tensaryu 23:23, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Dodgerolls?
I know this is a bit of a slowpoke moment I'm having, but does anybody else remember how 'sins used to do these quick little siderolls when under a speed buff and changed direction? They were cool, and I miss them. --128.113.139.96 22:37, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Must've been a really early thing, since I've never heard of that before. Do you mean the Sins actually used to do something other than running when moving? Man, I missed out on the early stuff... [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 15:53, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It was during the beta weekend, and was obviously cut for one reason or another, it was just one of those things that I suddenly remembered as I went on my (now mule) assassin. Shame though. (128.113.139.96 again from a different computer.)
 * I remember that. Used to love rolling down the HA ramp to spike me some NPCs then shadowstep back to the ramp (thank you good old shadow haste) before anyone knew what was happening. Good times. R.I.P my rolling assassin friend.  }{ Ipo™ }{  20:17, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

No offense to any decent assassins but
Is it just me, or are the majority of stupid and obnoxious players assassins? Warriors take second place but they're not so vocal about it. Again, I'm making a massive generalisation but that's what I get most of the time. 222.153.229.8 04:08, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Monks, they think the game revolves around them.--[[Image:AlariSig.jpg]] 04:11, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
 * True, but in my experience, sins tend to be the bigest assholes. 222.153.229.8 04:12, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Thats just cause sins are big meta in a lot of areas, and 99.99% of meta snobs are assholes.--[[Image:AlariSig.jpg]] 04:16, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
 * And being an Assassin, they've got plenty of strong spike skillbars; tends to give newer players the illusion that they're straight-up killing machines. You tend to brag a bit when you're doing well like that.
 * ...just like how I brag all the time about how many 'Sins I killed with SS in that last AB match, etc... (fastest attack speed in the game + slowest disengagement reflexes in the game = taking out every player near you when you get hexed.) --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> .cнаt^  04:30, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

3/7/08 update
So I herd A-Net is trying to break assassins. 24.188.82.8 22:26, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Well if they didn't start out overpowered, it wouldn't be this painful. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 22:27, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Overpowered eh? 222.153.231.53 03:06, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Overpowered, "delicately balanced", however you like to say it. It's not all that easy to balance out an instant-kill class without removing the whole point of an instant-kill class. Short of making skills that read "target touched foe dies. So do you." --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> .cнаt^  14:11, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I would use that. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 14:13, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Like some weird mix of Reversal of Damage and Base Defense O.o--D N A 03:38, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * "Target foe dies and so do you"? EoE says hi. 201.174.198.141 04:54, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
 * EoE would be moar like:team members sac themselves and the enemy team wipes. Coarse that doesn't work anymore.... Mr IP 05:14, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
 * However, GW Assassins are still very balanced compared to those of Ragnarok Online. And sins are nothing without element of suprise. If you see and assassins coming towards you, activate your blocking stance, inform your monk to Guardian you or whatever. J Striker 05:32, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Degen team with EoE, Infuse Health on a Monk, and BiP on a Necro. Wait until everyone's taken damage, spam Infuse on one teammate, and spam BiP on the Necro. Boom headshot! (in a manner of speaking)
 * ...oh right, Assassins. 'Sins can run unblockable chains (which don't do as much damage) or haxxor-uber damage bars (which never get to land if the target has a block chance, thanks to the Lead-OffHand-Dual system). haxxor-uber damage bars still work the first time around, because it's unexpected; just how an Assassin should work. But it doesn't kill the whole team, heck, it gets severely harder to kill even the same guy a second time if he gets resurrected. Also just about how an Assassin should work.
 * And as a footnote, Scythe 'Sins are suddenly good. Went from gimmick when Nightfall came out, to deemed useless when the hype died, to suddenly awesome again. Nifty.
 * Also, I ran into a degen team with EoE once in HA. Whole team was suffering badly, 'cept for a Monk who had full health. Then someone messed up and died... we're not sure which one messed up, because all seven died at the exact same time... --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> .cнаt^  06:50, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
 * In the end, Assassins are part of the group as are every other. Taking out one link of the enemy chain by surprise means a lot, but that's all the Assassin can do. J Striker 07:09, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I run a Scythe Spike build in AB. It's a ton of fun; kills really fast, recharges quickly, and has a good surprise behind it. If I jump up on a Monk that just cast Guardian on a teammate, I can probably kill them. If they get a heal off before I finish? I'm relegated to matching my DPS against their HPS (Damage Per Second / Healing Per Second). I also have to deal with teammates hitting me, other effects hitting me, and so on. I die, or give up, nobody cares. Happens all the time. I get my kill off on the first try though? "oh my god, that's so cheap! I couldn't even fight back, so overpowered." Right. It's overpowered. Just like all the heal spells you've got, along with Prot. Spirit and Guardian and Dismiss Condition which is canceling my condition as well as canceling any damage it did.
 * Point is, Assassins are cheap... when they work. Just like every other class. Only difference is it's a lot harder to notice when they don't work; as opposed to when a healer doesn't work ("why didn't you heal me?!"), and so on. It's a really bad balance, that keeps shifting back and forth. But it's still a balance, and I don't think people pay as much attention to that. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> .cнаt^  07:16, 19 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Again I must come to my own rescue. I really like my sin, but many of you are right in your own reguards. I play my up to the standardsin which they were made and I think that I do a good job of it. i.e. Take out monk, then other spell casters, retreat and heal/get healed, and jump back in and defend your spellcasters. If you CAN play a sin decent, you may not have to retreat as much for a sec or two. But you are right when it comes to noobie sins. THAT is what makes it hard to be credible. Hero/henchie sina are a joke, they can't process the attack sequence and when to jump ship to another enemy or out of the fight all together. This is what noobie sins do. Experienced players can pull off a sin pretty well, but the distance between them and a non-experienced players is miles. The aura of the sin is intreaging (sp) so new people just like them, and then get tired of getting killed and they move on. A noob Monk or Sin is easy to spot quickly, but a noob warrior can run through battle and take a beating without too many people noticing. The debate will go on, and my sin will still be marked as an outcast, but I'm ok with it. After you are in a group with a good sin, you tend to remember them a little because they're not too many of them. (p.s. if you still don't believe me, look me up sometime. Tsingtao Tenchu) silentbp  08-22-08

Critical Barrager section
Am I the only one who thinks the "Critical Barrager" section doesn't belong... should all professions have sections on popular builds then? 24.250.197.214 05:01, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * yeah you're right. That should be in the "secondaries for an assassin" page. Which it already is. Ezekiel  [Talk]  05:17, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

LAME request
This class now needs a Less Able to Make Effect tag. 81.71.25.43 05:33, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Uhh... no --Gimmethegepgun 05:35, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I disagree with adding a LAME tag as well. Instead, just change the profession name from "Assassin" to "Golden Wild Fox's Shattering Assault". Same difference, really. - insidious  420  15:42, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Or "Way of the Master Wounding Strike". --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  18:03, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Personally I agree with the LAME tag for Sins (coming from someone who played a sin since Factions came out)

Cause the Assassin class itself is either going to be nothing but a secondary or a walking "Plz Don't Shatter/SS/Blind/Empathy Me" sign. The only saving grace they had is next to useless now what with the aftercast delays on all of their offensive shadowsteps giving whoever they were supposedly surprising more then enough time to slowly walk away.

And no I don't consider crit scythe builds Assassins just really gimmicky wannabe tanks that die as soon as they're either blinded or had their Crit Def shattered.

Gotta love how all the defensive skills available to monks (Sield Bash, Return, Guardian, Prot Spirit, Smoke Powder Defense just to name a few) have as of yet to be changed in a way that would negatively affect a monks survivability though..but hey I still have my godly 7-17 dmg daggers, unreliable lead/offhand/dual chains, shadowsteps with aftercast delays, next to no longevity (Look it's a sin kill it), and of course....the unblockable chain woooo 1 2 3, 1 2 3 *Pray whoever I'm hitting doesn't call for a Blind/SS/Emp/Insid*. Hell Yeah Sins RULE...or not 71.83.92.123 03:19, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Sin spikes have been nerfed really hard, but they're still good at pressure/DPS. Moebius Strike/Death Blossom still works great in PvE, last I checked. Hell, we've even found ways around the Shadow Form nerf in PvE. ــѕт.  мıкε  03:32, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Sure Assassins can be decent DPS/Pressure but wasnt't the whole point of the Assassin class to outright..assassinate people? not wear them down after 5 mins? It just seems more and more apparent GWs just doesn't have even the faintest idea as to where they're trying to go with these class/skill balances. Hopeless Situations 02:57, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The thing is, Sin spikes could just about guarantee a kill on single foes. If they actually had help from outside (healing/prot, interrupts on the sin, etc.) they would see how fragile their chains really are. That's why Spike Sins were good at farming bad people in RA, AB and CM. XD ــѕт.  мıкε  02:59, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Well to me that was the whole point of an Assassin high burst dmg easy enough to counter said burst damage (unfortunantly :P) and the realization that if something looks at you for more then a few seconds..you're probably gonna die :P

And if Assassins weren't so..gimpy..compared to how they used to be I'ld say something about Assassins only being able to kill bad players...but as much as it pains me to say it you're right :P

Forgot to Hopeless Situations 19:10, 29 July 2008 (UTC)


 * @71.83.92.123: Just to note, the current best Critical Scythe builds don't use Critical Defenses (like you pointed out, they're useless as tanks and prone to enchantment-hate, so nobody really bothers to try it). A good number of builds either run Assassin's Remedy or have a decent Monk, so Blind isn't a huge deal.
 * I'm a big Assassin fan, so don't take my bashing the wrong way. I think they've had a lot of nerfs in places they didn't need it, without buffs to make up for it. But they still have use. The Scythe 'Sin I use is a very strong spike, even with the shadowstep nerfs. Shattering Assault is another good use.
 * An Assassin's job is to simply jump in and kill people, and that job keeps getting harder. Especially when a lot of Assassin builds try to be frontliners as well, and suffer from nerfs to the skills that allow that. But with skills like Shadow Prison and Dark Prison still useful (even after nerfs), Shattering Assault, various knockdown skills, and a few good finisher skills (such as Impale), the Assassin still is a very useful tool as a mere finisher. Pressure on the Monk, when the Monk starts suffering, then the 'Sin can jump in and finish the job. Sort of like a Mesmer, in the fact that you've got to keep an eye on everyone. Only instead of looking at people's skills, you're focusing on their healthbars.
 * That said, the number of useful builds for a 'Sin has dropped dramatically. The old good builds were often too good, and get nerfed, while everything else is generally unused for a reason... and still unused for the same reason. I think ANet's afraid to start handing out skill buffs, for fear of going a tiny bit too far and giving the class another overpowered spike or something. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  07:21, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

That's the problem Assassins were never Oped to begin with they were new they were capable of massive spikes but paid for it with low AL more weaknesses then a common melee i.e energy denial would completely shut down an assassin's spike (spirit shackles can burn in hell lol) in a matter of seconds..a higher vulnerability to SS/Empathy/Insidious then other classes because of their naturally higher attack rate from double strikes/ias + double strikes much easier to counter spikes because of the lead/offhand/dual system. Long story short yes Assassins were deadly, yes they could kill a single target in 3-4 seconds alone, no they couldn't do it against anyone with a half decent monk, no they couldn't do it with a SS Necro anywhere nearby, no..if they had mending touch/purge/shield bash/balanced stance then it probably wasn't going to go well for the Assassin and more then likely the target would /dance after your spike and you'ld end up either running away or laying on the ground eating dirt. And as for an Assassins uses in a group..it was hard enough to find groups as an Assassin even before the nerfs in high end PvP (except in GvG when shock sins were somewhat common in some of the higher ranked guilds as a ganker but that was shortlived as the initial surprise factor of the build itself wore off and was easily countered) but now...why? On the bright side I can still use a scythe or get limited to even fewer viable dagger builds..so thats gotta be good right? 71.83.92.123 20:02, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with every word. Assassins were OP, they just farmed bad/lonely people. XD ــѕт.  мıкε  20:17, 30 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The problem with sin is that it's entire concept is broken. Glass cannons designed to quickly remove one single enemy before they can do anything either ruins every game it's in or becomes completely and utterly useless, with no middleground at all, because they are completely impossible to balance. Either they outright own their target and it's way OP or they can't do a thing at all --Gimmethegepgun 21:17, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I never saw anything OPed about Assassins sure they were capable of a massive spike but they paid for it by being a very high priority target (if the people you're fighting knew what they were doing at least..) as well as again having higher weaknesses to standard melee hate because of the long recharges (especially after the first few nerf bat hits)of the rather easy to interrupt dagger chains and believe me nothing shut down an Assassin more then anything that extended the recharge of skills (distacting shot, diversion oh how I utterly hate you diversion, shield bash etc) or worse empathy/ss/insidious on the fastest weapons in the game mind you it was rather amusing seeing an Assassin kill his entire team because he was SSed and he didn't stop attacking :P

Besides that I can't say I minded having a class that with the propper ammount of timing could take out a healer class in a reasonable ammount of time cause I'll say one thing the only thing I ever worried about in RA/TA/AB was a good sin, a mesmer or if I was half asleep a hammer war :p when I was monking cause against just about everything else it was a case of /dance and waiting for my team to wipe the floor with em (I ran prot/heal or SoR monks or several different kinds of rits <3 OoS)

And someday I'll actually remember to sign Hopeless Situations 07:49, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

some ideas to get Assassins to use daggers again
Any of these changes would be welcome.


 * 1) Change Critical Strikes to give energy return on critical hits, and whenever you Double Strike, and each time you successfully complete a step in a dagger attack chain.
 * 2) Daggers' base damage now ignores armor.
 * 3) Lead Attacks, Off-Hand Attacks, and Dual Attacks now have a chance to Double Strike. (4 hits for Duals)
 * 4) Bonus, armor-ignoring damage for successfully completing a step in a dagger attack chain, based on Dagger Mastery - +1...15 for completing an Off-Hand and +5...25' for completing a Dual.
 * 5) Dagger attacks now cause 75...33% less damage, based on Dagger Mastery, if you don't meet the prerequisite, instead of just Missing. (Dual after Off-Hand for example)
 * 6) Daggers' base attack speed is now 1.00 seconds.

Not that Izzy gives a damn, of course. If he was going to do something, it would look something like this:


 * Critical Strikes attribute now only applies to Daggers.

Bah. (T/C) 02:43, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think even IZZY is dumb enough to do THAT, it would instantly make about half the playerbase /ragequit and never return, not even if it was reverted --Gimmethegepgun 03:29, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Heh, I like the "Dagger attacks now cause 75...33% less damage, based on Dagger Mastery (would that affect damage from the whole attack, or just the +dmg?), if you don't meet the prerequisite, instead of just Missing. (Dual after Off-Hand for example)" but the others seem like they would be too powerful. Exhausting Assault+Moebius Strike could be a problem, though, although KDs might still be better.
 * "Bonus, armor-ignoring damage for successfully completing a step in a dagger attack chain, based on Dagger Mastery - +1...15 for completing an Off-Hand and +5...25 for completing a Dual." <--- makes it seem like every attack skill should get a damage bonus. Maybe that's what Sins need, some more buffs. =/ ــѕт.  мıкε'  03:39, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I think probably the best idea here would be to cut down recharges somewhat, reduce the damage kinda, and give the "less damage with bad chain" thing a shot. Make a couple chain exceptions, such as Exhausting, but doing that will probably make sins way less gimpy. 1 block or interrupt won't completely fuck their chain, but it'll make it less effective, and they won't absolutely desecrate things when nothing goes wrong. Also, switch up the cast times of Shadow Refuge and Feigned Neutrality, they both deserve the other's cast time :P --Gimmethegepgun 03:45, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Shadow Refuge is a decent heal, but Feigned Neutrality combined with Dark Escape reduces armor-affected damage taken to 12.5%. Feigned Neutrality is a life-saver in most cases, and you don't actually need to use it more often that 25 seconds (unless you like to kamikaze). I think we just need a lot of buffs, because Sins have been nerfed unnecessarily. They are, and always have been, the easiest physical to shut down and interrupt during a chain, but they can get quick kills on bad people. So, really, everyone else should just stop being bad. lol ــѕт.  мıкε  03:55, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The problem with their cast times is that Shadow Refuge is supposed to be a combat heal, and supposed to continue attacking after casting it so you can get that final blip that consists of about half it's healing. Knocking yourself out of combat for nearly 2 seconds (cast time + aftercast) as an assassin is simply not viable. With Feigned Neutrality, it turns you nigh invulnerable for the duration, what with the quartering of most incoming damage and high regen, and yet it is basically impossible to interrupt. Having to take a second to cast it gives Mesmers and Rangers a chance to prevent that invulnerability --Gimmethegepgun 04:21, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Ahhhh, I thought you mean recharge times. ~.~ ــѕт.  мıкε  04:30, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Some ideas: Meh. - insidious  420  18:09, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Would it be imba or just dumb to do something like: "While wielding Daggers, every rank in Critical Strikes gives your attacks a X% chance (let's say, 1.5%) to be unblockable"?
 * "When you land a Lead Attack, your next Offhand that requires a Lead activates in 3/4 second." and "When you land a Lead Attack followed by an Offhand Attack that requires a Lead, your next Dual Attack that requires an Offhand activates in 1 (or 3/4) second."
 * Well...while the first would be a buff, unless it was like 50% at Rank 15, it would end up being too unreliable to be useful. As to the second, why not just change the activation times of all dagger attacks period? Then Assassins don't need an IAS :> [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 19:20, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
 * But what happens when they take an IAS? Uber-quick imba chains, and then we're back at square one. Imo, they need some IASes from their primary so they can use Conjures or some of the utilities a Warrior or Dervish would generally take. Way of the Assassin needs to be rebuffed, tbh. ــѕт.  мıкε  01:33, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, i kinda think that the whole energy gaining primary attribute is lame to begin with, but seeing as sins were the ferst new class to use it i guess its ok. (and they Need it to begin with) I guess im more ranting on the lameness of the leadership effect. Anyway, I would agree that daggers base attack speed shoud be increased. I find it kinda dumb that daggers attack at the same speed as swords (not accounting for dual strikes) even when daggers are supposed to be fast. Yeah a 1.00 second refire sounds good, and hey, if it doesn't work out that way, thats the glory of test weekends! The damage reduction would penalize more skills than others, things like twisting fangs would die, while exhausting assault would be way overpowered. Also, the small chance to be unblockable would be interesting as it would remove the stigma (albeit true) that the only useful sin chain is an unblockable one, with a chance to be unblockable, other skills might see use. Honestly, though, would something like this work? Assassin's energy pool has been re-worked. They now only have 3 arrows of regen, and base 15 energy (therefore 25 with armor; this is the same as a ranger's energy pool) then decrease some dagger attack costs. I think this would make spellcasting for sins, a bit harder, though they would still be able to use thier own spells. But right now, it just seems that sins make TOO good of casters for there to be reason to use daggers. See sincasters. This still may or may not rectify the problem of crit scythe... Im thinking that we should rework the energy pool to give sins incentive to focus more on cheap dagger attacks, than being just another caster with a blade.148.61.216.76 15:37, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I stopped reading when you said Leadership, because that is easily one of the best (ties with Expertise and pre-nerf Soul Reaping) primary attribute in the game. >.> [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 15:44, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, idea: Daggers give double the Critical Strikes return. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 15:46, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Sins were dumb and imba since the beginning. Nerf them moar pl0x. --Alf&#39;s Hitman 17:55, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I said leadership was lame, that was misleading, I mean the idea is unorigonal and makes no sense, not that it was bad. I use "lame" in a different sence. i think that energy management primary attributes have already been done. Its just unorigonal, and they could have done something different for the paragon primary, but thats beside the point on the sin page. Oh by the way, that was me, i forgot to sign in. Shadowshear 18:01, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * "For each rank in Leadership, your Shouts have an additional range of +1 meter and last X longer" ? Anywho, Sins should have Energy more like a Paragon does - 2 pips, give 'em some adrenal skills, and rely heavily on Critical Strikes for e-management. Dervish are more okay to be caster spammers (at least for things like Orders), since they already rely heavily on enchantment spell. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 20:51, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Assassins are fine, L2P. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.175.66.52 (contribs).
 * L2sign. Anyway, a class that is a glass cannon is a completely broken concept, and that is entirely what a sin is. Thus, it never should have been made --Gimmethegepgun 03:21, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Assassins are not fine. No one uses daggers in real PvP (or even in PvE for that matter). [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:16, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Backbreaker? Hidden Caltrops? Palm Strike? Those builds all use daggers if I recall correctly. The only other viable options in PvP are critical scythe builds and then the assacaster builds. 71.126.188.132 16:44, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Although to be entirely fair on that, the Backbreaker 'Sin does need to bring a Hammer to trigger the build's main skill.
 * Also worth noting; the Palm Strike build was created after Entropy's comment (note, she said that back in November), so at the time, the Hidden Caltrops build was about the only widely used 'Sin build that actually used Daggers at the time. As opposed to Scythe 'Sins and Assacasters, which were both popular at the time (maybe even a bit more so). --[[image:GEO-logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  03:04, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Here's my take on possible ways to overall buff the class without being OP & keeping things as simple/similar to current as possible. Most dagger attacks can be used anytime, out of sequence, & will be less powerful & lacking effects they normally now have. Each dagger attack you successfully land in sequence (or by meeting the skill's prerequisites, Falling/Black Spider, etc), grants the next attack increased effectiveness. This is effectively identical to how chains now work, but just putting a 1 word label to it, "charge". You maintain charge with each successful skill that meets a pre-req. Misses, or out of sequence skills set charge to 0. Melee skills have no positive or negative effect on charges. Examples with above ideas:

Unsuspecting Strike, Lead Attack. 10e, 3r. Deals +10...+25 dmg. If target foe is above 80% health, you deal +15...+40 dmg and target foe is stunned, disabling any stances for 2 seconds. You gain charge.

Fox Fangs, Offhand Attack. 5e, 8r. Deals +3...+15 dmg. Charged: deals an additional +2...+10 dmg and activates in 1/2 second, and you gain charge.

Twisting Fangs, Dual Attack. 10e, 10r. Deals +10...+18 dmg. Charged: inflicts Bleeding & Deep Wound for x seconds, and recharge increases to 15 sec.

How the 'special' off-hands could work:

Falling Spider, Offhand Attack. 5e, 8r. Deals +7...+15 dmg. If this attack hits a knocked down foe, you deal an additional +8...+16 dmg, target foe becomes poisoned for 5...17 seconds, and you gain charge.

Just some general ideas & of course all this could be tweaked. Plus I think a lot of sin skills could be reworked to focus more on prepping a combo (such as my Unsuspecting Strike example above). IMO this would make sins slightly less useless if a chain fails, or Lead/Offhand gets diverted, etc. -  420  21:49, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd like to just toss in a quick observation from an "outsider" here... No offense, but you folks seem to be stuck in the Box. Everything is either situationally Underpowered or OP'd... and that's about all anyone seems to agree on.  Why not re-examine the USE of Daggers from the ground up instead? IE:  Why use them in the first place?  Well b/c they're light-weight and very precise.  That's about it.  But that's also rather convenient b/c you've got this class that is supposed to be a "sprinter" and it's not quite living up to that concept for whatever reasons or lack of planning. What if Daggers were slightly deadlier and used specific but under-utilized mechanics to penetrate + armor + better, but were also the only weapon that didn't penalize the Assn's energy cost on each skill?  What if they also had a small automatic armor mod like all Shields or the Primary Attrib gave a small blocking bonus?  What if those kinds of bonuses became necessary after Anet re-evaluated the class and found that there was never any reason for it to have 70 base AL and 4 pips of recovery?  ...hell, maybe that kind of homogenized standardization accross class-stats was the whole reason they were never quite able to be different enough from Wars & Dervs in the first place?  Maybe their Insignias should have been waaaay outside the box by situationally giving them Damage Reduction and increased-Energy versus specific Positions and skill-types by proximity to target/inflictor instead...  In other words:  More Variables, and a lot more room for true customization and concept. --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]
 * I agree w/above, lots of core mechanics coulda been balanced better or entirely different to give the class a truly different feel. Like spatial or contextual attributes, etc.  About being "stuck in the box", I did preface my suggestions with "...keeping things as simple/similar to current as possible," for in the unlikely event a.net actually did do an overall rebalance of the class so it would be less work.  At the very least, I'd like to see Lead attacks get some hex-like qualities to them to really make them worth something, like my US example above ^.  Or say for ex:  Jagged Strike, Lead Attack, 10e, 10r.  Deals +3...15 dmg, inflicts Cracked Armor, and your next 4 dagger hits (ie, offhand -> dual) deal an additional +2...+10 dmg. - [[Image:Ins420sig.png]] 420  16:56, 14 January 2009 (UTC)