GuildWiki talk:No original builds

Laying down the hammer
I am sorry, but this is just wrong. This is against wiki principles (no original content posted by users, must be content from other users who are more important than current user). This is plain bias. I want to make sure a few principles are clear here: So, yeah. I give this proposition three thumbs down. --Karlos 21:12, 21 December 2006 (CST)
 * 1) No one here should ever care (looking at Skuld as I type this), that our reputations is a "joke" on other sites. We are a documentation site, not just a guide or "guru" site. As such, it is not necessary that everything we document is something pretty and impressive to all the leet players. Otherwsie we should just deleted the beginner guides, because, come on, who needs those? We are all uber-leet players anyways. I have no problem with documenting a decent build that is not great, but good, and is efficient though not as powerful as the main-stream GvG builds.
 * 2) The problem with the builds section is NOT that there are bad builds or less than great builds. The problem with the build section is two fold: A pile up of builds waiting to be vetted, making it harder for users to find the good builds cause many are not vetted yet; and the fact that the vetting process is messed up because of voting. This means that the real problem is develop a vetting process that is fast and accurate so we get builds vetted quick and we make sure that what we label as good is actually good.

Addition: Oh, another thing, I think it's impossible to measure the "originality" of a build, or how often someone sees it somewhere. Same problem revisited. Joe Schmoe will login with 14 of his highschool buddies and swear on their science teacher's honor that they saw it in TA. What will you do then? --Karlos 21:18, 21 December 2006 (CST)


 * So what do you make of Build Split? I put it up in response to this, but the more I think about it the more sense it makes to me. PvP and PvE are certainly different, so why not treat them differently? Different doesn't have to mean elitist, of course, it's just whatever's the right tool for the job. --NieA7 04:19, 22 December 2006 (CST)


 * Just for the record, I still like my 3 votes up 2 votes down idea. It's faster, good builds stay 1 vote longer than unfavored builds do, but it gets the job done. Remember when we only had 100 or so in untested? =P
 * Of course, I have to agree with Karlos on the subject that this is against the very foundation a Wiki is built on; the fact that anyone can make suggestions. There will always be some disputes over whether a build should be vetted or not. That's fine. The point is, that we do not have to turn into some elitist fansite in order to be correct. If the concept works, fine. If it's not used by every single guild in every single match, it doesn't give a reason to delete it. Elitism = Bad. Build voting = Good. That's just my two cents on this issue. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 21:20, 21 December 2006 (CST)
 * On that note... I suppose that, since we are a "documentation" site, it makes sense to have a lot of builds of builds that fall short of greatness still documented on the site. Approaching the problem from that angle, one could say that we should even have something like this:


 * Ew, right? How stupid is that build? Well, a lot of people use something like that. Maybe we should be "documenting" it: talk about how it works and why it doesn't work. I, for one, wouldn't have a problem with a lot of mediocre stuff being posted to the wiki as long as it was reasonably discussed (that means no over-the-top power claims, as we see in a lot of build articles today). Then you can just categorize things as "Top 100 GvG" &c. freely on top of that.
 * Thoughts? Should the Mending wammo be catalogued? Why or why not? &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 21:45, 21 December 2006 (CST)
 * I agree with the cataloging of builds, and support the "Top 100 GvG Label" idea. -- Dekan 22:04, 21 December 2006 (CST)
 * It seems like a good idea, but I'm not sure it'd work in practice. Just look at the bitching that goes on on any W/Mo build's talk page - I can't imagine agreement being reached there in order for a sane discussion to be put on the build page. Maybe I'm too cynical though... We could insist that there was a fairly detailed discussion of the pro's and con's of every build on the build page itself (say at least five points listed for each), that'd be handy. The "Seal of Approval" thing sounds interesting as well, though the criteria for applying one would have to be worked out in more detail. Why not write it up as a policy and see if it flies? It goes against this but it could easily be run alongside build split. --NieA7 04:19, 22 December 2006 (CST)
 * The obvious solution, based on your reply, is that we should just document builds - any builds - scrap the vetting/vote process - and just list available builds regardless of their quality. At least, that how I read your post.  Build documenting = good, vetting process = bad.
 * Actually, that could solve much of the current problem. The endless debates are about if a build really is good or not - and even then builds that do not work, or which defy basic common sense are still making it to the approved status simply due to volumes, guild-mates swamping bad builds created by their members, or just plain sockpuppetry to get it to favored.  Eliminate the ratings entirely, just list builds regardless, and the problem goes away.  Of course, then it's even less useable for quickly finding good builds; but it does eliminate the current problems.  --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 11:27, 22 December 2006 (CST)


 * I have said (somewhere, in one of the bazillion pages regurgutating this issue) that I think we should do like Guru, have people post builds, with no rating system what so ever, and then have anyone TALK aboutit all they want in the discussion page. So, only the original poster and a builds admin can edit the page. The other component to this (to prevent the clutter) is some admin with the authority to say "Nope, this is an obvious rip-off of the XYZ build with just one different skill" or "This is a build on its own." (That admin has to be anyone but Skuld though, or we'll end up with 3 builds in the whole builds section.) However, with the departure of Xeeron from these affairs and in the absence of a replacement, I feel bad for the builds section because it's falling into neglect. --Karlos 14:29, 22 December 2006 (CST)


 * That could definitely solve one problem, and substitute a clutter problem in it's place. To mitigate the clutter problem I'd love to see a simple "rating" system available that anyone could give a page a x/5 or x/10 stars. I don't know if there are any plugins/extensions out there that do this well, but ideally one would tally votes, weigh number of votes, ratings, and perhaps other things to come up with a final rating that could be used displayed on other pages. Yeah, some builds that get popular on the site may suck, but at least it would give users some indication of which builds may be more popular than others. --Zampani 13:07, 22 December 2006 (CST)

Karlos, you are my hero. I think what you said is great. I also like the idea I saw a guy above suggest about a Seal Of Approval. I think that such builds shoudl have to get at least 15 "voucher" votes of people saying they saw these builds being used, and then most importantly which guilds they saw use them. the, members of those guilds should be contacted to varify the info.

The vetting process should also be reformed, but that should be for another discussion.--TheDrifter 22:29, 21 December 2006 (CST)


 * The voting system was flawed from day 1. The problems with the voting system have been thoroughly documented in a lot of previous threads. Let's not reopen that now. --Karlos 14:29, 22 December 2006 (CST)

I know, that's why I said it is best saved for another discussion at another time.--TheDrifter 22:59, 22 December 2006 (CST)
 * To Karlos: You make conflicting points. "No one here should ever care (looking at Skuld as I type this), that our reputations is a 'joke' on other sites." - Why not? We have a build section - those people are better at builds. Ignoring them would make us noobs, plain and simple. While their arrogance and pissy attitude aren't the greatest, their knowledge of PvP and builds in general is; blowing them off and pretending we know what we're talking about is folly. "We are a documentation site, not just a guide or 'guru' site. As such, it is not necessary that everything we document is something pretty and impressive to all the leet players." If we're a documentation site, then we should document the builds; not make them. There's a difference between making the elite PvPers laugh because we suck at builds, and them not liking our layout/S&F. Nobody makes fun of the Wiki's S&F - they make fun of the build section. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|||My Talk]] 04:06, 23 December 2006 (CST)
 * Side note, mostly to 130.58: Yes, in our Effective Warrior Guide, we can include (or link to) a generic mending/healing breeze/live vicariously build, and detailed discussion on why it sucks. Including that in the guides would not only dispel the notion that using healing prayers makes you invincible, but it would open the eyes of many newbs as they see that a W/Mo fails at healing anyway. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|||My Talk]] 04:06, 23 December 2006 (CST)
 * While we're talking about wammos... I fired up observer mode today and saw a guy running this bar (on a wammo) in 6v6:


 * (There was probably another attack skill in there, as well as a cancel stance; most definitely no condition removal, as he wasted like 10 seconds Blinded). I think that shows that PvEers definitely aren't the only newbs around. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 04:19, 23 December 2006 (CST)
 * o.O PvP has its fair share of newbs/noobs, which is why farming fame when heroway was around was so easy - not only would the teams bunch up because they're heroes, but 90% of them had sucky skillbars because their human player sucked at PvP. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|||My Talk]] 05:01, 23 December 2006 (CST)
 * Yes, well Heroway needs to be destroyed. Heroes should have NEVER been put into the game, Guild Wars was meant to be a team based game, not a game where u march around with your supercharged AI Characters. I think the Top 100 GvG idea is fine, some of the builds in the Vetted Section are toltally outdated and are just very old FoTM builds.--Llednar 15:03, 23 December 2006 (CST)

lol, I didn't have access to my computer for two days, and it doesn't look like this has gone anywhere ;) Am I wrong, or does it seem like after around four or more months of trying to come up with a new policy for the builds section, yet another proposal will end up falling flat like all the others?&mdash;  Azroth    17:19, 23 December 2006 (CST)


 * Give it a week, we've all got wintersday and rl wintersday :) &mdash; Skuld 17:26, 23 December 2006 (CST)

We are not saying the top-100's builds shouldn't be listed. They should, we are simply saying their builds are not any better then other people's succsesful and effective builds. You all want to put the top-100 on a throne and tell everyone else to stop thinking. This may sound stupid, but this sounds alot like the way big cooperations put the little guy down. This totally defys every principal wkiks and GW stand for. You are all beinf elitist on the highest level and are discrediting the intelligence so amny people that are not in the top-100 have.--TheDrifter 23:02, 23 December 2006 (CST)
 * If the agenda is to document things that are currently widely played and successful in GvG then the "Top 100" thing makes sense. Why? Because you and I can hit 'B' and see a build in action. We can get a sample both of what's popular and of how different builds tie into the larger strategy of a particular guild. However, we can only do this for "Top 100" battles. That's a design decision that ANet made. For us, it's a practical cutoff, not just an arbitrary one.
 * There's a different between documenting existing stuff and creating new stuff. Wikipedia has lots of pages about famous novels. But you can't go start typing your novel inside a Wikipedia page, can you? "No Original Builds" amounts to "Only write up stuff that is verifiably widely-used," not "Your creativity is worth less than the GvG champions'." I'm not sure Skuld et al. have done a good job expressing that, but that's what this is about: mixing up the "creativity" with the "documentation" means that the relevant stuff gets lost in the shuffle. It's a bit like if we listed current green items side-by-side with "wishlist" green items that players wanted ANet to put into the next expansion: people could post all kinds of great creative content, but finding the items you could go out and actually find (just like finding the builds other people will actually be running) gets harder as a result.
 * So, here's Skuld's question, stripped of all that unnecessary crap that's just confusing the issue: is the build section about making up new stuff or describing the state of the game itself? &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 01:01, 24 December 2006 (CST)
 * That is why some have been pushing for a split in the pvp section itself, creating a section for comunity created and tested builds, and a section for the popular builds. It would both document the game as it is and allow for the creativity that a fansite needs. I am not agaisnt the documenting of top builds, its a good idea but I am agaisnt replaceing the pvp build section with that only. My reasons for this being that this site is most popular for its build section.
 * Either way the top guild observe checking wont work for the arenas, and if you think that because a build works in 8v8(with npc support) it will work in a 4v4 arena setting then you may need to stop messing with pvp. And there is no way to easily check what builds are being used in arenas, the Nob policy may work for gvg but it wont work for the rest of pvp, and the NoB would go on not documenting the rest of pvp and that is infact unwiki like. A better system would be needed and allowing the comunity to make thoose builds is much betetr then what has been proposed.-- Sefre  [[image:Prepared_Shot.jpg|24px|]] 01:22, 24 December 2006 (CST)
 * As far as I'm concerned, NOB is dead (too restrictive, very little support from people commenting) and we should start talking about Build Split as a way to get both good documentation and an outlet for community creativity without having one purpose interfere with the other. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 02:06, 24 December 2006 (CST)

It's a bit like if we listed current green items side-by-side with "wishlist" green items that players wanted ANet to put into the next expansion: people could post all kinds of great creative content, but finding the items you could go out and actually find (just like finding the builds other people will actually be running) gets harder as a result.

I'm sorry, but I totally disagree with that statment. This is not like that, beacuse the green items are made by anet, while these build you all think should be documented were made by players just like you and me. This is elitism, you are putting a few (less then 1000) players over all the others, stating that they are the only people that play GW that are worth anything. A main selling point of GW was that it supported creativity and design. You are not supporting that aspect of GW. "creating you own green items" was not a selling point of GW. --TheDrifter 09:20, 24 December 2006 (CST)


 * I agree with Karlos that several users who wish to do away with original builds appear too concerned with the reputation of GuildWiki among high-level PvP players. I can't specifically recall any instances of anyone badmouthing GuildWiki at large in the game itself or on boards besides these Wiki users.  Before we make any drastic changes to the site, I ask those in support of this policy to ask themselves why they support it.  Is it primarily because they believe it's really better for the site, or because of peer pressure?  I don't mean to imply anything or make accusations, just putting that out there.


 * That said, those who are against this policy (that is, those who wish to keep original builds on the Wiki) should ask themselves how those builds really make the Wiki better. Yes, they probably attract more users to this site.  However, we could also attract users by hosting daily crossword puzzles or clip hilights of the week's NBA games.  GuildWiki is first and foremost a site dedicated to documenting in-game content, not creating it.  Crosswords and basketball don't fit under this definition, and neither do original builds.  Currently, we have made an exception in for the Build section.  While the current Builds section is Wiki-like in terms of specific GuildWiki policy, it is not Wiki-like in terms of the general purpose of the site.


 * Some users seem to object to the "elitism" of eliminating orignal builds. I have said in the past that builds are a subjective issue, but this is only because many users don't agree on what makes a build "good."  If a good build is defined as a build that is fun to play (as fun is, at least in theory, the overall goal of Guild Wars), then it is indeed subjective.  But if your definition of a good build is a build that accomplishes a given task at X standard, then it is not subjective.  Saying that everyone is equally well-equipped to determine what builds are at or above that standard or, possibly more importantly, to determine the standard itself, is ridiculous.  That doesn't mean that most players with experience in high-level PvP are better in an absolute sense than PvP newbies, but they are usually better at determining good builds.


 * Continuing that concept, GuildWiki is probably not the prefered site of most of those experienced players. Also, putting into practice a solid, defined documentation process of defining "good builds" through Oberver Mode only would time-consuming and impractical.  So, I propose that GuildWiki partner with a "pro" site, such as team-iq.net or Guru in build development.  GuildWiki and the pro site agree on a space and system for developing and vetting builds, possibly through a review commitee of experienced players.  The idea is that any build vetted by the pro site should not simply be agreed upon by the pros that it could probably work, but actually in use in high-level PvP.  Builds that pass this process will then be hosted on GuildWiki.  Of course this is only a conceptual proposal doesn't go into detail on how this would actually be put into practice.  However, this may provide a method of making the Build section a comprehensive, diverse, and, of course, respectable resource.  --Chris with Lime 9:23, 24 December 2006 (CST)
 * Ridiculously strong support. Even if we placed great policies into place for the PvP section, the top PvPers wouldn't come here; so including original builds for PvP would be pointless. If someone wanted to tweak their PvP builds, they shouldn't come to the Wiki for advice; they'd be better off going to GWGuru/team-iq.net etc in the first place. This works well with the Build Split plan; after BS splits PvP and PvE interests, the PvP section can team up with a partner site (an idea that garnered support here).
 * This not only lets creativity flow (people can still post their own PvP builds), but offers greater room for build improvement; a win-win situation. The Wiki would stick with what the Wiki has always done best (documentation of truly vetted builds), and the build creation workshop would be on the partner site. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|||My Talk]] 23:37, 24 December 2006 (CST)
 * Won't work until Guildwiki fixes its reputation. No one decent would want to partner with the GW build section as is. -Warskull 14:08, 25 December 2006 (CST)

You are asuming that Guru, team IQ ect. support the abloishment of orginal builds. I imagine, as both of these sites are made up of top-10 guilds do not. It is worth a try to talk with them about this, but nothing should be final, ideas should simply just be thrown around among these sites.--TheDrifter 10:51, 25 December 2006 (CST)
 * You apparently have never gone to team iQ and don't post anything in the gladiator's section of Guru. Team iQ is very restrictive of what is allowed to be posted.  Their general rule is that it must be successfully tested or you must specifically request permission from a moderator who reviews it before posting.  If you just post it, they are very likely to delete it without saying anything. The gladiator arena refuses to have a RA section in Guru.  iQ specifically enacted that policy because when you have a constant deluge of bad builds good players stop reading builds and providing feed back. -Warskull 14:06, 25 December 2006 (CST)

Failed? -- Add your comments!
At the moment, I'm not seeing a lot of support for this specific suggested policy. This is an invitation for people who haven't spoken up much to just chime in with a quick "yeah, me too" if they think wiping out the current build section completely and only allowing popular builds developed elsewhere to be submited to the wiki is a good idea. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 04:18, 24 December 2006 (CST)


 * I've been thinking this over quite a lot. I have a lot of mixed feelings on the subject. I am in favour of a policy that aims to ensure that the Build section is geared towards documentation and not blind submission of experiments.


 * I think it should be the aim of the wiki to only document those builds that are or have been in popular usage. Whenever I start a new profession I like to go through tested builds and see what works, but as tested gets bigger, it's come to the point where I have to go to the discussion page to see whether a build is genuinely good or not.


 * The only thing that makes me cautious about the implementation of this policy is its destructive nature.


 * Since original builds have, by their definition, an author then perhaps we could keep original builds but relegate them to the author's user space.


 * One way or another I do agree that the wiki should not give original builds the same status as those that are in popular usage.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 07:35, 24 December 2006 (CST)


 * I agree that the obvious aim of the build sections should be documentation. I feel it's become quite convoluted and I hardly go through a build page without seeing an unconstructive arguement that starts with "[X] is better than [X]." But that's not even the point. The biggest problem with the builds section is not knowing what is good. I believe that if we worked something into the builds section that would explain what makes a good build and why the tested builds sections contain those builds.


 * More of a criteria for each specialized section, if you know what I mean. Example: PvP section contains builds that the GuildWiki feels would fit nicely into a GvG, AB, or a HA team. These builds are unique in nature while still being accessable to newer players.


 * Or someting like that. (Obviously not that description.) The point is that navigating the build sections of the wiki is horrid. I struggled to find any information on good builds for my Dervish...what would give my dervish alive, what would make him attack faster, etc.


 * I say we need to focus on making the builds section more accessible rather than attacking the builds themselves.
 * Jack 08:21, 24 December 2006 (CST)


 * I don't see how a policy like this would stop people from posting builds in their user space. As far as I understand, user space equates to "do whatever the heck you want with it." You would solve a bunch of problems with limiting the builds section to known and popular builds and shifting original builds to user space.  You'll have less people throwing tantrums when someone edits their original build and you won't have to worry about  favoring or unfavorings builds.  Since you don't end up favouring bad builds you don't advertising "GuildWiki thinks this horrible build is good, everyone laugh at us."  You could very easy have a page that just lists user space builds with the disclaimer that user space builds are not tested.  This would shift the focus from GuildWiki not knowing anything about builds to specific users not knowing anything about builds when bad builds pop up. Just post an announcement before you do a purge of the build section that it is happening and anyone who wants to save builds should move them to their user space. -Warskull 14:47, 24 December 2006 (CST)
 * The difference between posting something in User space vs. wiki space / Build space / Special Original Build space is that it won't really get improved in the former case. You lose out on the "everybody shares ownership and contributes" thing, which is really the reason for using a wiki in the first place. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 16:59, 24 December 2006 (CST)
 * That hasn't exactly been working so hot, has it? -Warskull 22:13, 24 December 2006 (CST)


 * Sorry to reply halfway up the page, but I thought I should say, original builds have "authors" anyway, which means they aren't the same as other wiki articles. Surely this is reason enough to have them in the user space?  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 08:00, 26 December 2006 (CST)

Like this other guy and I said before, the player-made builds should be kept but al the popular builds should either be put into their own section or marked with a notice stating they are popular builds.--TheDrifter 09:14, 24 December 2006 (CST)


 * Bah! Which brings us back to the question. What defines "Popluar build" or "Not an Original Build" or "Top 100 Build"? How do you enforce such a metric? So, Onlyashadow (whose guild is a top 100 guild as he keeps reminding us) decides to post his new "experimental" build, which is utter bogus. You're saying we have to keep it? Because it comes (verifiably) from a person in a top 100 guild? Also, I have been playing with a person from Te a lot recently (in PvE mind you), and it does not seem to me that the Top guilds only have a select well known number of builds that they run. It would appear to me (never played more than 10 GvG matches in my entire experience), that it's more about concepts, not builds. i.e. What does this warrior have to spike with? How does he plan to stay with kiting foes? What will this flag runner build offer? I mean the way you guys are talking, if someone came and posted the Flame Djinn's Haste + Gale + Savannah Heat build here on the wiki we would have brutalized him. Even though it actually is now used by top guilds (I think it's a brilliant idea). ZOMG, not using Windborne Speed!! Ban him!! --Karlos 16:42, 24 December 2006 (CST)
 * Well, if we were doing something like Build Split, you can use a big cutoff (e.g. 10? 15?) of people saying "This is classic. I've seen this." You can look around for builds on the GvG TV, or you can just look around in-game for stuff people are running (e.g. SS builds were really noticeable at the hieght of their popularity). I think the definition of popular is that, well, it's hard to miss. How many times can you wander into an arena batch before someone shock-Eviscerates you, for example? &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 16:54, 24 December 2006 (CST)
 * Heh, i've used that (don't burn me! :p) &mdash; Skuld 16:54, 24 December 2006 (CST)
 * The top 100 metric is applied specifically to GvG. You log onto obs mode and can say "yep a top 100 team is running this" to enforce it.  It is easily verified and communicated.  I didn't say the top 100 metric should be used for PvE.  I said nothing about top 100 players posting whatever experiments they like.  It states "has a top 100 team run this in GvG successfully?  If someone else logged into obs mode could they see this?" His experiments would be removed just like everyone elses. -Warskull 14:00, 25 December 2006 (CST)

As I've stated earlier, I support removing all experimental builds and builds submitted by individuals, so that only well known popular builds are documented. And I don't mean builds created by top 100 or even top 10 guilds, but those builds which are really really popular in the game, such as the 55hp monk, SS, trapper, etc. -- (talk) 16:59, 24 December 2006 (CST)
 * That is the goal of this policy. The metric for GvG would be top 100 teams as they are generally successful and they are observable.  Each format would need its own metric to make it very difficult to misplace builds.  GvG and HA can utilize obs mode.  TA is more difficult. -Warskull 14:11, 25 December 2006 (CST)
 * Although the principal is the same, the method you suggest isn't to my liking. Top 100 guilds decide? No way. Observer mode patrolling? Who does that? It's the experience of all of the Guild Wars players that should be utilised to decide if a build is popular enough. I think that the builds should be selected so that if you ask many random players (but active in the game) they recognise the build and its purpose. No matter if the build is PvE or PvP. (Ofcourse PvE players don't need to know the PvP builds and vice versa) --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 15:06, 25 December 2006 (CST)
 * Observer mode is a very popular feature. Tons of players use the observer mode feature and watch matches to case what the metagame has shifted to.  All you have to say is "I saw team X running this build in GvG" and other members of GuildWiki can make a note to observe that guild to verify the build.  I use the top 100 because it is on observer mode and success can be easily verified.  I have seen a lot of GuildWiki users mistake builds, for example they get owned by a rampage as one thumper, but think any R/W with a pet and a hammer was the build that owned them.  It would be harder to mistake builds if obs mode was involved. -Warskull 03:50, 26 December 2006 (CST)
 * That's an incredibly unwieldy method for verification. It wouldn't work out, and it's also very exclusionary. Not everyone can sit and observe matches to carefully note entire builds... and do it again when different skills become FOTM or different teams rank up. It would severely limit contributors. Yuck. However, while I oppose this policy suggestion, I do think we can achieve the same goal with a tag or other marker on popular/successful PVP builds... ie, 5 people say it's been observed in top PVP matches, it gets a tag saying that (with discussion and the possibility for revocation, of course). I'd also suggest raising the vote bar for normal build vetting, and/or changing the wording on the existing build category tags to make it clearer that poorly-thought-through builds aren't wanted. To me, the real problem centers on putting the "vetted" tag on builds just because 3 people say so... that's where the potential "harm" to GuildWiki's reputation may come in (though honestly, I do not think the wiki's reputation for builds is a big concern). Anyway, change that and/or change the vetted language to distance the Wiki community from the merits of builds, and we're golden. — HarshLanguage [[Image:qswearing_small.png|HarshLanguage]] 04:05, 26 December 2006 (CST)


 * Any player good enough to be allowed to vote should watch matches =P
 * But time difference does matter. See, I don't see eurospikes a lot in my time zone...--Silk Weaker 04:31, 26 December 2006 (CST)
 * Currently we have people who obviously don't GvG voting to vet GvG builds after they test them in RA. Call me silly if you like, but I think people contributing to the GvG build section should have some understanding of GvG and know a bit about the GvG metagame.  Sure some time zones would have trouble observing other time zones, but shouldn't the euros be the ones commenting on what is in their metagame?  All I have to do is give you a guild name and rougly when I saw it.  You don't even have to enter obs mode until you see that the guild is on obs mode. -Warskull 13:21, 26 December 2006 (CST)
 * Another problem is with builds suitable for both PvE and some form of PvP - just because I vote favoured for the PvE aspect doesn't mean taht it'll work in the PvP bits it's categorised for. --NieA7 14:42, 26 December 2006 (CST)
 * I would rather keep the builds section, i don't like all the bad builds in it, but i think the builds section is part of the wiki, no matter what others think. it may be smirked at by some, but lots enjoy getting ideas and inspiration to make builds with. I think that we should change categories alot to fit different builds, such as pvp, pve, and "top 100 guild builds" or something to that effect. the only matter is to convince enough people to make the move and carry it out. we could have endless discusiions, or just decide on something to do, and get a vote on it BMW 14:53, 26 December 2006 (CST)
 * I really haven't discussed criteria for knowing if it's original or not. I think we could see the difference between a skull crack warrior and a spirit's strength weapon wielder. One is well known enough that an average pvper who knows his things knows what it is. In other words I would prefer common sense>observer mode and we can use observer mode for added proof of course.--A Guy 02:44, 28 December 2006 (CST)

FWIW my "ya, me too" is that I don't agree with this particular policy recommendation, even though I think some rethinking needs to be done on build categories and the policies for those categories. -- Oblio (talk) 11:37, 2 January 2007 (CST)

This is a horrible idea. No. The originality and input of others is what makes a Wiki strong and unique. If people want to go to a lock-down Stalin fisted forum, they can go to a lock-down Stalin fisted forum. Otherwise, no. I don't give a banana if a few players with chips on their shoulders constantly insist that Guild Wiki is for 'noobs.' Get over yourselves. Isis In De Nile 00:07, 3 January 2007 (CST)

Other Ideas?
(really i just wanted a new "edit" button, that last area was getting huge) I posted this Elsewhere, but reposting here... My suggestion would be to just seperate user builds and prominent builds altogether... prominent builds should only be FotM and Staples... while tested "userbuilds" should be in their own section. Placing my Impaler in the same light as the tried and true SS Nuker is just WRONG =)... The impaler might be good... but the SS is a staple and unless there is a massive nerf will always be a prominent build (even after the ai updates=P). Builds are the reason i like the wiki as much as i do and will only help the wiki's funding (as theyre pretty darn popular)... but people coming here to find the perfect build to copy paste can get lost in the mess... Basically, changing Miscellaneous builds to "User Created Builds" and moving "tested Builds" there, and then cataloging all the general FotM and Staple builds into their own section in prominent builds SHOULD help to ease the headache a bit... --Midnight08 12:42, 26 December 2006 (CST)

Btw, i love a partner site idea, but also love the wiki format... maybe use the partner site to handle the vetting process, then transfer tested builds to the wiki afterward... Either way,if someone can tell me the monthly cost of a site this popular (and the system requirements and such) I'd consider helping to start one... (which i've stated in the past)--Midnight08 12:47, 26 December 2006 (CST) --Midnight08 17:43, 27 December 2006 (CST)
 * Agreed, as per my suggestion in "Build Split". A partner site completely ruins the cross-referencing scheme. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 18:36, 27 December 2006 (CST)

If there was a way to limit the rights of "users" who have registered for less than two months, we could solve most of the problems. How clueless can you be after staring at the builds section for two months? Or three, or six months? Skyreal 02:28, 28 December 2006 (CST)
 * The spirit of the idea is good, but it really does fall short. Unfortunately it goes completely against the GW:YOU policy, and that policy has good merit behind it. Just because an editor is newly registered to the site doesn't mean they have less knowledge of the game, nor does the fact someone has been registered for a long time mean they are more competent at putting together builds. --Zampani 02:51, 28 December 2006 (CST)
 * Good point. *sigh* /relurk Skyreal 05:16, 28 December 2006 (CST)
 * I agree with Zampani's argument that "Just because an editor is newly registered to the site doesn't mean they have less knowledge of the game [or vice versa]," but I heartily disagree with using GW:YOU to defend any arguments. It's rather common knowledge that the Build section violates policies simply by existing; if you really wanted to get technical and start quoting policies, you'd need to take a step back first. GW:YOU doesn't really apply to the Builds section for the exact reason Midnight pointed out, but we can't use his suggestion for the reason you stated (time registered =/= experience). -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|||My Talk]] 06:22, 30 December 2006 (CST)
 * While I'm glad there's no disagreement on time registered != experience, I'm curious about your reasoning in stating GW:YOU doesn't apply. I'm not familiar with whatever point you reference that Midnight made (too many threads going on). As you said, the builds section has and does defy traditions and policies we've had on this site, but I don't believe I misspoke on this particular one. I believe GW:YOU still applies to every portion of this site, and that by restricting build creation, editing, formatting, etc. to certain privileged ranks you defy that policy. And just because a section of the site breaks some policies, this does not mean it can (or should) break any/all policies. --Zampani 17:31, 30 December 2006 (CST)

From Build talk:Main Page
Copied and pasted:

I have no objections to deleting "original" builds, whatever you consider those to be. I personally consider them to be all the duplicate, minor variant, seemingly useless builds that random people bring onto the wiki and dump them here and abandon them after only contributing once. I am more for a "Popular" or "Flavor of the Month" builds category, but don't think there should be a "vetting" process whatsoever. I think the only thing we would need on that is just like any other article we have on the wiki. All discussion would take place on the discussion page and if the general consensus (not a vote) is that the build is not popular enough in the aspect that it was created for (PvP or PvE), then it will be either deleted or archived. One of the two. The only way to test whether a build was popular or not (at least in PvP) would be to go into observer mode and watch most of the matches. If the build isn't seen or isn't advertised in the least, it can't be accepted that it's "popular". The same thing can be said about team builds for PvE. You will commonly see people advertising for what type of character they're wanting and what type of build they want them to run, both on solo and team levels. The only type of builds that I see becoming a problem with this type of investigation are solo-builds. People don't normally advertise their solo builds in-game. Mostly due to fear of nerfing and/or they think they are sitting on a gold mine and don't want anyone else to find out their secrets.

So here are my views:
 * No original builds. Only document widely-used builds that have reached huge popularity both in-game and in the metagame.
 * No vetting process. Build articles should be treated like any other article on the wiki as far as varification goes.
 * This will eliminate the mass amount of drama related to the builds section where people think that unfavoured votes and such are personal attacks and more personal attacks won't result in retaliation.
 * Document every aspect of the build available (dominion of usage, origin, and date of conception, and (if necessary) date of death/dis-usage usually as a result of nerfing or over-usage and countering).

Now hopefully, someone can decipher everything I've said and not take it in the wrong way. — Jyro X 19:58, 24 December 2006 (CST)

— Jyro X 05:32, 28 December 2006 (CST)


 * I agree. With help, I have a nearly complete list of all the popular PvP stuff. Gonna wait 'til the next balance to put it all up &mdash; Skuld 06:50, 28 December 2006 (CST)


 * But as a policy NOB has pretty much fallen flat - seems like most people don't want it, even though some very vocal members do. How is what Jyro suggests going to be put into effect if most people fundamentally disagree with his first point? I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but if Build Split were put in place BEFORE we tried any other fancy changes I think we'd be making all our lives a hell of a lot easier. --NieA7 06:59, 28 December 2006 (CST)

Why can't we just have a flavor of the month catagory and a player-made catagory? This way, you can all hae your way about documenting the flavor on the month and there will be no objections.--TheDrifter 10:45, 28 December 2006 (CST)
 * see the Other Ideas in this discussion for that exact same idea --Midnight08 11:57, 28 December 2006 (CST)


 * I don't see much if at all very much opposition to the fotm section just the removal of original builds. Should we just add the section soon deciding how it is going to work and then decide if we should remove the original builds section.--A Guy 13:44, 28 December 2006 (CST)


 * I think we should just separate the FotM builds with some simple categorisation so that people can ignore the rest of the builds if they want. That way we can keep the old system, but concentrate on the popular builds as if they were just like any other article in the wiki. They should abide by the same rules as other articles, not by the build rules. Ie no voting, discussion of the build on the talk page, etc. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 06:25, 30 December 2006 (CST)


 * But why keep the old way if we have all the decent stuff? If you can provide proof that it is a decent build, it would be in the decent section no? As a rule, if its good, its probably been done before, if someone can point at an example that falls outside that, it would be great &mdash; Skuld 06:29, 30 December 2006 (CST)
 * Because some people happen to like the old way, Its 1 of the main reasons i use the site. I enjoy trying builds and thinking of new ones and the format here is much more user friendly than the formats ive see elsewhere... and that seems to be a common agreement here... MANY userslike the build section... This serves as a comprimise seperating the really well known builds and offering a way for the large part of the wiki community that DOEs like this build section (even if the system in place to rate these builds isnt good)--Midnight08 13:39, 30 December 2006 (CST)
 * Popular/FotM section is not the same as good build section. The idea is to separate those builds widely known and used in the Guild Wars community. Those which are not well known or are being created in the wiki should stay out of the FotM/popular section and they could use the current build policy or a modified version of it, while the popular/FoTM section would work just like regular wiki articles. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 06:32, 30 December 2006 (CST)
 * An example. Build:D/Mo 130hp Dervish is good and has gathered lot of positive votes, but if you ask anyone in the game, they will probably not recognise the build even if you explain how it works. This build would belong to the regular builds section. Build:Team - 55/SS has been recently vetted (again), but works well. It is well known. If you ask anyone in the game, they will most likely know what you are tlaking about even if you just say "SS" or "55hp". This belongs to the FotM/popular section. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 06:36, 30 December 2006 (CST)
 * I've known about that build before it was here, been up on gwguru forums for ages. It does its job well, but its kind of a niche due to the small amount of farmable stuff, and the fact that 55 casters are more popular, of course it won't be heard of. &mdash; Skuld 06:39, 30 December 2006 (CST)
 * You listen to what those elitists say about farming builds? Tsk, tsk. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|||My Talk]] 06:46, 30 December 2006 (CST)
 * I'm not even sure is Skuld is getting my point or not. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 06:52, 30 December 2006 (CST)

(Resetting colons)Since the removal of original builds isn't going to happen, it's best that we work on a way to separate the FotM (aka tried-and-true) from the... not. While the generic solution would be adding another category tag (which makes sense, at least as part of the solution) we should mark the article somehow. Wikipedia's featured article idea comes to mind (the bronze/copper star in the upper-right-hand corner of the Featured Build page). -Auron  07:07, 30 December 2006 (CST)
 * That'd be my inclination as well. A namespace split might be a decent idea, too. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 19:17, 30 December 2006 (CST)
 * Meh, scratch that... burn them all. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 03:34, 3 January 2007 (CST)

The Culling of Imagination (or lake thereof)
Well, I'm divided on this. As for regular, garbage PvE builds using generic crap moves, I'm all for getting rid of them. Builds dealing with hard areas (Elite missions, UW, FoW, etc) should stay. This is my 2 cents. This allows for both originality, better navigation, and understanding what is actually vetted by the top-dogs and simply "Favored". Please use multiple *'s under each of my points to argue them or propose modifications to them. This can be done by using the edit button. If you wish to argue my entire proposal, disregard the previous two scentences. --Mgrinshpon 23:25, 30 December 2006 (CST)
 * As for no actual original builds, I think that's stupid.
 * I think what's needed with the builds section is an organization scheme that doesn't (and pardon my language) suck balls. Baseballs of course, they're not tasty, so it shouldn't suck them.
 * Splitting the favored builds section up into HA (team and solo), GvG (team and solo), RA, and PvE (Farming and Team Farming) is my suggestion.
 * There shouldn't be a single "Favored Builds" section but there should be a single "Unfavored Builds." As for "Untested Builds", that section should be broken down identically to the tested builds section proposed earlier by myself (look a line or two up). Real Top 100 guild builds should be vetted just like regular original material.
 * Top 100 guild builds should have a template on top of them, like, say,  . This could also work for HA/HoH builds using a similar template, like,      , except only builds from a winning HA/HoH team will be applicable. Screenies of each will be required.
 * Modification of the top 100 GvG or HoH builds should not be allowed, although proposed variations can be placed under a "Guildwiki variations" sub-category.

EDIT: Commonplace PvE builds should be documented (Minion master, for example). --Mgrinshpon 23:40, 30 December 2006 (CST)

ugh.. @ Skuld, In response to if it's good it's been done before; SOMEONE had to make them, right? So therefore it has happend, allbeit I can't name a specific example.

I'm in favor of keeping the PvE builds section, 'everything works' and such is utter BS if that's true then no builds at all would be unfavoured. IMHO opinion this seems to me to be a bunch of PvP elitism BS. Make a Favored Builds and a Tested Section. Just throw all the cookie cutter SS, MM, Etc Builds into there and have a section so that people who make a unique build can do so. --Dazra 04:03, 3 January 2007 (CST)

This is not elitism, this is not only top 100 GvG.. all the barragers and fire nukers and stuff aswell, but no cleave monks or spellcasting paragons k?
 * allbeit I can't name a specific example.

kk &mdash; Skuld 05:36, 3 January 2007 (CST) But but... but... cleave monks win PvE! /sniff -Auron  08:33, 3 January 2007 (CST)
 * Whirling Axe monks imo. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 17:20, 9 January 2007 (CST)

HA and GvG Only?
This is what it seems to boil down to. There is PvP outside of HA and GvG. People fixated on these two battle types need to stop belittling other game types just because they find them distasteful and insist they be removed from the builds section, which is what this ultimately boils down too. This is incredibly egotistical. Isis In De Nile 21:06, 16 January 2007 (CST)
 * /yawn. The problem isn't in the HA/GvG section. We can find those easily, and ones that suck are quite obvious; not to mention, there aren't nearly as many HA/GvG builds posted as there are PvE builds. If people would focus on guiding the newer players and not shoving builds down their throats, the benefits would be neverending; the newbies would not only learn how to think about builds, but in the future, would make builds that are good enough to turn into FotM. As 130.58 said, Guides are really what we should be focusing on.
 * On a side note, keep the flaming down. I know I'm egotistical/elitist/arrogant (can you think of any others? Those get OU after awhile), but beating a dead horse (or a horse that doesn't care) serves no purpose. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|||My Talk]] 21:42, 16 January 2007 (CST)

Ephatic agreement
UnWiki like? Wiki handles things that have atleast one firm foot in objective criteria. So dicussion can revolve around something and a page can be refined and improved. A builds section in a Wiki is like having a bunch of kindergartners present their finger paintings to each other. Highly subjective. Even those builds that are designed for a spcific purpose, and might appear to be more easily commented upon for criticism do not overcome this conceptual obstacle because this is a Wiki about a game, not a guild website, not a "how to farm" website. At least it's not limited to that. You know what should be on GuildWiki? things like this: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=89491 see people at these other fan websites don't have to pose as anything else, like a wiki--yet they can have contributors there that rival or exceed what is being done here. Wikis can excell at these things, but it seems aparent that the Wikified process of presenting builds falls directly prey to the community of Wiki masters. If you dont type 80 wpm, multitask and do what the restof the community seems to be doing, then you'll be processed out. Maybe I expect too much, this is after all, just a fansite right? --Rafe Alexander 23:31, 14 February 2007 (CST)


 * Out of idle curiosity, what's Guild Wars Guru if not a fansite? --NieA7 05:12, 15 February 2007 (CST)
 * Did I call it anything other than that? I don't know if it's anything other than  fansite.  It sure isn't a Wiki.  It can do things  a Wiki can't and vice versa.  Both, it might be argued, are aimed at recieving and disseminating information, usuallu in the form of user contributions, and in some cases exclusive game maker/developer material or access--at lesat in the case of Guild Wars.  Perhaps others may read and be lost on the point that I wrote above.  I'll try to reword it, but first let me quote Fyren on one small point here: "The goal of the wiki is to provide information to readers, not to help people improve their builds. The build process is just to filter builds to accomplish that goal... --Fyren

perhaps it was some wording of mine somewhere that made him think i was looking for input to improve my build, but I wasn't. I was looking for thoughtful, relevant feedback, but that's  another matter. Point being that in other fansites you can seek help with a build--if that's what you want. You're not making a contribution that has to go through any vetting process to find it's way on to some page. There is a looser environment into which you can discuss things in non-Wiki fansites. One thing I found out quick about Wiki, (even after a few snafus) is that it is easy to misplace your writing on a Wiki. If I want to discuss X--and I know people are talking about it--is it something that is even on the Wiki? No, it's not a subject of which the site is about, but it's seeping all over in the discussions throughout. or perhaps various people have made discussions about it but the wording in the titles of the subject are much different than how you might ask the same question or approach it. So now you might have several discussions going on at once that haven't been married up. Like the two Policy Proposals out there right now. This is only one of them, but they both propose certain solutions to what everyone sees as a problem. My argument is that the problem will never go away because conceptually, the Wiki format is not designed to shape what is---by nature--a creative endeavor. It's like art, and what is art for one person isn't for another. Likewise, what is fun in a game for one person isn't fun for another. So there's no objective standard to which any sort of vetting--in the Wiki fashion--that can be reasonably applied. Compund this with what I percieve as an inability to set any sort of standard within the vetting system for quality input (such as mentioning an example of a better build, instead of just saying it, voting then moving on) because of the Wiki way of doing things and you get a pointless excercise in futility. Talk and debate about how to stab the beast piles up everywhere in the discussions, taking away from the attention to the content of the Wiki itself, tainting it's quality, sucking the life out of people who are otherwise trying to keep things running smoothly.

Gah, use paragraphs! 132.203.83.38 15:33, 27 February 2007 (CST)

Have you seen the Recent Changes recently?
Seriously. At least half of all the edits are for some so-called original build that looks terrible on paper. Usually more during the noob-hours of the day. I'll be honest, I haven't tried those exact builds, but I have a feeling they either will work in 1 and only 1 situation, or simply is inefficient overall. Guildwiki is really turning into buildwiki, and furthermore, bad-buildwiki. I think the real source of the bad-build problem comes from the fact that authors don't really test their builds thoroughly before trying to publish them. 10-wins-in-a-row in RA is not a thorough test, winning a few AB battles is not thorough testing, holding HA once is not thorough testing, beating 1 mission or farming 1 mob is not thorough testing. What we have now is a bunch of untested builds, likely written by inexperienced players, that will never become FotM or gain any status of popularity. --8765 14:14, 27 February 2007 (CST)
 * I think much of the build problem is starting to cool off. I'll be the first to admit we have some bad builds in the Tested section, but we are weeding through them. Remember, you can still vote on a build once it has been vetted. One case in point would be the Build:W/any Perpetual Knocker. It was vetted, and the community took note and voted it into the Unfavored section. In my opinion, it is the position that many users have adopted, to ignore the Builds section entirely, that will be most damaging. Good, experienced, and knowledgable contributors are needed to ensure bad builds never get vetted. If so many users ignore the Builds section, it just makes it that much easier for some n00b build to slide through the cracks. (P.S. If anyone reading this would like to see some examples of bad Tested builds, just message my talk page and I'll show you what I'm talking about). - [[Image:Candle.jpg|12px]] Krowman (talk • contribs)  14:31, 27 February 2007 (CST)
 * "Good, experienced, and knowledgable contributors" Good luck finding those. The reverse occurs as well: as people pour in bad builds, the legit testers get overwhelmed and frustrated and eventually give up. And what good is weeding out the builds when the bad ones always come back. You have to pull the weeds by its roots to kill it. --8765 14:39, 27 February 2007 (CST)
 * Can you provide some examples of bad builds that "always come back?" I haven't come across any builds that have moved from the Unfavored section into the Vetted one without undergoing significant changes first. There are knowledgeable players here on the wiki; you can usually find them voting unfavorably on bad builds (well, so long as they haven't abandoned the section entirely). What I'm saying is that the solution to the problem is for people to not give up on the Builds section; it can be improved through the contributions of knowledged and experienced players. - [[Image:Candle.jpg|12px]] Krowman (talk • contribs) 14:51, 27 February 2007 (CST)
 * I can, there was a guy yesterday who posted the same build twice under a different name, I forgot the name, but it was definatly a bad build. -- SigmA 14:53, 27 February 2007 (CST)
 * And it was vetted? - [[Image:Candle.jpg|12px]] Krowman (talk • contribs) 14:54, 27 February 2007 (CST)
 * You overspecify a general statement. Most bad builds have similar properties, varying between professions. It's not a mending+HB build that shows up everyday, it's the whole concept of a spell-casting heavy war that comes back. I believe we have different definitions of basically a good player. I will say though, good players are becoming scarce ingame, and the guildwiki community is a basically a sample of the ingame community. Now I'll throw the question back to you, can you provide the list of knowledgeable players that actively contribute to the build section? --8765 15:01, 27 February 2007 (CST)

Well, I can't say they're always right, but here's a list of users that I respect: As well, I don't see the logic in your statement about GW having scarce skilled players. First of all, I flat out disagree with the idea, because you can see dozens of skilled players on Ob Mode every night. Secondly, and most critically, I can't fathom how you came to this judgement: If the collective skill of GW players is dropping and good players are becoming more scarce, then the scale you use to judge players would drop comparitively. Good players are those who are better at playing the game than others. How can there be less and less of these? Clearly, we all are not becoming more and more homogenized in skill levels. The good players will continue to stand out from the bad ones; I don't understand how you can say there are less of these outstanding players around these days. - Krowman (talk • contribs)  15:28, 27 February 2007 (CST)
 * User:Defiant Elements
 * User:Rapta
 * User:Auron of Neon
 * User:Lania Elderfire
 * User:Llednar
 * User:Silk Weaker
 * User:Entropy
 * User:Skuld
 * I'm sure I'm not listing all the good players and editors; this is a top of my head list...