Talk:Daggers

Attack Speed
Does anyone know the attack speed of a dagger??? --Ninja Quail @ 2/15/06

A dagger swings every 1,25 sec. tested it with the preorder daggers.
 * Where did you get preorder daggers from??? -PanSola 05:36, 11 March 2006 (CST)
 * Nvmind, I thought only corresponding professions would get them. -PanSola 05:50, 11 March 2006 (CST)


 * Did you count swings over a long period of time to determine that? --68.142.14.64 12:42, 11 March 2006 (CST)

I tried them several times on the practice targets for 60 seconds, counted 47-49 hits. A friend did the same and got the same results.

BTW, when testing, make sure your Dagger Mastery is adjusted to 0, and make sure when you report results, SAY you tested with dagger mastery of 0. That attribute increases the probiblity that you hit for double-strikes, which mess up the count -PanSola 06:48, 12 March 2006 (CST)
 * If only Assassins have dagger mastery, wouldn't all current characters have 0 in Dagger Mastery? --Rainith 06:56, 12 March 2006 (CST)
 * Doh! *smacks head* -PanSola 08:41, 12 March 2006 (CST)

Yes my characters did not have dagger mastery at all, but even then they did make a double strike about twice in 1 minute (I would guess there is about 3-4% chance of a double strike with 0 dagger mastery if this is not a bug). It is easy to separate them from the normal hits and the test is still valid an average of 48 hits over 1 minute, that is exactly 1,25 sec per hit.

How does double-strike work? I understand it causes twice as much damage, but is it a slower attack? Or does it take twice as long (i.e. two attacks)? --JoDiamonds 01:55, 28 March 2006 (CST)

double-strikes are two attacks in rapid succession during one attack cycle. You just hit twice in   the same time you would normally hit once. Each of the hits gets calculated seperate, meaning the damage can differ.

On the question of attack speed, I tested it also with the preorder daggers, and I think the attack speed is more likely 1.33 seconds. Hitting the AL100 target 100 times took me approximately 1 minute and 12 seconds, for sure it was nearer to the 133 secs than to 1 minute and 5seconds. -EDIT: I was tired, got numbers in the wrong places. It took me _2_ minutes 12 seconds = 132 seconds.

I made about 30 new test just compearing with a sword (which is 1,33) and the daggers while comeing close were aways faster by a little. That is normal, the difference of 0,08 sec is difficult to detect. Another thing 1 m 12 sec for 100 strikes is 0,72 atack speed not 1,33. I tested 100 strikes and it came closer to 1 min 5 sec than to the 1 min 12. Also did a test with illusionary weapon with daggers and sword. The daggers aways killed the dummy faster then the sword by a little more than 1 sec if there were no double strikes and by more then 2 sec if there was at least one. I still think the atack speed is closer to 1,25 sec than to 1,33.

somewhere along the route this got changed back to 1.33. did i miss some important research or was it just a revert? --Honorable Sarah 16:34, 15 May 2006 (CDT)


 * No clue. Were you testing speed with Illusion Magic set to 0?  Longer times will help getting the difference bigger and sand out smaller random/systematic errors.-PanSola 20:07, 15 May 2006 (CDT)
 * What? attack speed 1.33? That seems pretty rediculous if you have used both sword/axe and daggers. daggers are quite a bit faster.--Coloneh RIP[[Image:Coloneh.png]] 21:21, 11 December 2006 (CST)

Can't you just have a Sin and a War attack each other and see who hits first? If the Sin hits first then he has a faster attack speed. If they hit at the same time then daggers have an attack speed of 1.33 attacks per sec.
 * 1) your about 3 months late for this party, and 2) the skew in human timing is greater then the projected difference of .08 seconds. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 20:54, 31 March 2007 (CDT)

I know its just that the speed is still 1.33 for the daggers and while I don't have Factions for my self I have been obliterated more than enough times to belive that daggers are faster than swords/axes. As for the sin vs war thing it would be very easy to see what number appeared and dissapeared first.

Plurality?
Like Scissors and Pants? --PanSola 22:29, 21 February 2006 (CST)


 * Or my favorite, beers :D. Dagger is singular and daggers is plural of the word. You wouldn't say you have 2 dagger equipped. I didn't play the PvP Faction weekend, but did they have general equipment for the 2 new classes and with that their names as well? In PvE I have only seen Ritualist items and a lot of them too, but no Assassin weapons as of yet.


 * A question or two.. do you think ANet would just say like "Snakebite dagger" and it would be 2 daggers or can you equip 2 different types of daggers for each hand? Say a "Snakebite dagger" in your lead hand and a "Stonefist dagger" in your offhand? *Dagger names I made up for this example. --Gares Redstorm 22:51, 21 February 2006 (CST)
 * If I recall correctly from the PvP weekend (and it's been quite a while so I could be wrong), the daggers are bundled in pairs. You can't chose which one for left hand and which one for right hand.  The pair of daggers all go into the right-hand slot and count as a two-handed weapon.  That said, I really didn't pay attention to the naming of the weapons. -PanSola 22:53, 21 February 2006 (CST)
 * If you check out the link in Factions to the Gamespot article from yesterday, and then check out the screenshots of Factions that they have, you can see the daggers on the PvP creation screen. They only come in pairs, but I can't remember if they are listed in the plural form or not.  --Rainith 01:08, 22 February 2006 (CST)

If you go to the PvP character creation, weapon selection, at the very bottom greyed out and unselectable are "Butterfly Daggers". -PanSola 09:01, 1 March 2006 (CST)

It is pairs. I played an assassin during the weekend. All dropped daggers are pairs too. The item picture always shows them slightly crossed. The name is always Daggers too. I played in German version but I don't think that the plural version will be used in German only. -- Michael57 16:18, 31 March 2006 (CST)

Avg attack speed with 16 in Daggers?
I see quite a few edits of the avg attack speed with 16 in Daggers. The latest one is 0.95. My calculations resulted in a different number- 1.05. The way I calculated this was by using the following formula:

32%DOUBLE STRIKE SPEED + 68%NORMAL STRIKE SPEED = AVG ATT SPEED

That is:

0.32x0.625 + .68x1.25= 0.2 + 0.85= 1.05s

1.05 should be the avg attack speed figure. Whoever keeps editing it for 0.95s, please, explain how is 0.95s the figure and not 1.05. 0.95s is possible only if there is an unknown factor in the equasion, otherwise Maths doesn't lie. -Hella good 19:36, 26 May 2006 (EST) The mathematics is slightly different - your calculations assume that when double strike procs, you launch one attack that strikes twice as fast. This isn't true - you launch two attacks in the same time of a normal attack durin a double strike, so your average weapon speed is even higher than indicated. To get the proper average attack speed, you use this formula:

WEAPON BASE SPEED/(DOUBLE STRIKE CHANCE*2 + NORMAL STRIKE CHANCE*1) = Average SECONDS/ATTACK aka Average ATTACK SPEED

This is because for each 1.25 second window, the average number of attacks is DOUBLE STRIKE CHANCE*2 + NORMAL STRIKE CHANCE*1, or two if you happen to double strike, and one if you don't.

Thus, at 16 dagger mastery, you have 1.25/(.32x2 + .68x1) = .947 (rounded)

Following that, at 12 dagger mastery, you have 1.25/(.24x2 + .76x1) = 1.008 (rounded as well)

Hope this clarifies things (not that I did the original edit).


 * One question: is it confirmed that at 0 dagger mastery the probablity of double strike is 0? What was the largest cumulative number of strikes recorded in the most detailed test conducted so far? - 19:09, 26 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Last time I checked it wasnt 0. My war with 0 in dagger mastery delt a double strike once (possibly twice) in one minute of testing. But that was over a month ago, I need to retest it to be sure. [[Image:Chuiu Me Icon.png]] (T/C)  19:57, 26 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Theres a chance of double strikes with 0 dagger mastery. [[Image:Chuiu Me Icon.png]] (T/C) 22:10, 27 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Were the two of you using the preorder daggers? Those have a 20% chance of +1 Dagger Mastery, IIRC, which may skew calculations. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 22:42, 27 May 2006 (CDT) )
 * I was using Lou's Karambits. [[Image:Chuiu Me Icon.png]] (T/C) 22:48, 27 May 2006 (CDT)

Dyes on daggers are buggeg?
I use dye on 2 set of daggers and they both seem bugged ( sais and butterfly), each time only one dagger change color and the other one stay the same. Anyone can confirm that for other skins?--Micha Truefaith 01:50, 28 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Ok I find out its only happen when you dye it, they will be both dye the next time you equip them.

--Micha Truefaith 02:06, 28 May 2006 (CDT)

Attack Speed numbers in Article incorrect.
Daggers seem to have a base 2% (speculative number, but there is definitely a base chance) chance to double strike, which may account for PanSola's incorrect 1.25s swing time for daggers. I've timed them in numerous tests to swing 1.33 times per second just like swords and axes (at 0 dagger mastery, I would still double strike sometimes and I'd exclude the extra attacks from the attack speed calculations). Therefore the numbers should be corrected as this article is linked to frequently and is becoming the cause of a lot of misinformation.
 * 2% base chance for double strike isn't sufficient to explain the difference 1.25 > 1.33, as that's more than 6% difference. It looks to me like further investigation is needed.
 * In any case I'd count the double strikes, but list them separately. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 08:39, 6 June 2006 (CDT)


 * FYI, the 1.25s isn't my time. Look deeper into the history as well as the discussion in section "Attack Speed" above.  I've only made ONE single edit to the daggers article so far, and it wasn't about the 1.25 vs 1.33 deal.
 * Multiple testers are reporting that it attacks faster than 1.33 even after removing double-strikes from consideration. Even if their methods are flawed, so far no one has challenged their findings. - 12:33, 6 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Daggers definately have a base attack rate of 1.33 seconds. I double checked my previous results tonight to make sure, and I'll post them here in case anyone wants to double check using the same method.  Tests were done using Fraps, recording 100 attacks with daggers and swords at 60fps, then analysed with virtualdub.  Daggers took 7962 frames, swords took 7975 frames.  If daggers were 1.25 second AR, you'd expect more like 7500 frames, which isn't even in the ballpark.
 * 2% Base chance of double strike also seems about right. Over 1000 samples, I got 23 double strikes using unmodded daggers on a mo/w.  I won't update the article until someone verifies my results. --Pharalon 07:51, 9 June 2006 (CDT)

Ceremonial Daggers
Just a question, the ceremonial daggers are marked as unique item, but i got a pair myself in a chest in the Deep. Is this drop changed or is the list not totally accurate? --Gaia 22.30, 5 July 2006

All the endgame unique items can drop as normal golds 24.190.5.20 00:09, 17 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Except Shiro's Blades and Shiro's Sword. -- Gordon Ecker 03:26, 16 September 2006 (CDT)

And ironwing longbow is unqiue-only &mdash; Skuld 06:16, 16 September 2006 (CDT)

Minimum Req For Max Damage
What is the minimum possible req for a max damage on a dagger? I've seen max damage swords and axes with req 7 with max damage and a max damage modifier, but is this also possible with daggers? Anyone know what other weapons can drop with max damage and max damage modifiers with a req of only 7 or less? - Stexe

7 is lowest for daggers also.

Elona Drop Rate
Is anyone else disturbed by the excessive drop rate of daggers in Nightfall? It's almost predictable. I've tried to submit this to play NC as an issue.--Ninjatek 08:44, 19 December 2006 (CST)
 * I haven't noticed anything unusual. I suspect that dagger drops are just more noticeable because Nightfall only has about 6 dagger types available as loot, although it's also possible that daggers are significantly more likely to drop than other categories of martial weapons and I just haven't noticed. Gordon Ecker 05:31, 23 December 2006 (CST)

Crits + average damage
I'm doing some research for average damage as I type, but as I'm doing so I'd swear they're critting a lot more often than swords or staves... Each time I bring the weapon, 12 in the relevant weapon attribute, 12 shadow arts (death's charge ftw :P), 3 crits, and unequip all armor. (Don't hate me for using a female pvp character...) This way I can tell which are crits and which aren't, and not count the crits. But I've gotten several crits so far (I'd estimate around 20) and I've only got around 75 data points (non-crits). AL 60 targets are going down fast between a combination of crits and double strikes. And every crit is doing 24 damage, in case anyone wondered. --Armond Warblade (talk) 22:37, 18 March 2007 (CDT)

Average damage:

Weapon	Damage	Count	Average Daggers	7	8	56 8	18	144	9	20	180	10	24	240	11	18	198	12	25	300	13	18	234	14	23	322	15	23	345	16	19	304	17	16	272	Total	212	12.24

View the source for it to make sense. Is this enough data, or should I do more testing? (Crits are not included.) Again, I'd swear I got around 75 crits before I got that data (even got four in a row once, and I only had 3 critical strikes). --Armond Warblade (talk) 23:09, 18 March 2007 (CDT)

IAS
daggers at 16 dagger mastery and a 33% ias, have an actual attack speed, I believe, of 0.5511