Talk:Unwaking Waters (mission)

250 or 200?
It states here that Dark Chain Lightning deals 250 damage, but on the skill page, it states that it does 200 instead. Can someone clarify that?65.93.69.24 19:36, 17 May 2006 (CDT)

All i can tell you is with ranger Druid's armor (pyrebound gloves), it was dealing 211 or maybe 250, one of those.--Daniel Rendat 03:34, 10 December 2006 (CST)

Interrupting Kuunavang – Mesmer Skills
I have had difficulty interrupting any of the Dragon skills with my mesmer. I have tried skill based interrupts instead of only spell based. Both Cry of Frustration and Psychic Distraction {Elite} do not seem to interrupt Kuunavang. Based on the description of these skills, they should interrupt him/her.

You need skill interupting instead of spell interupting, So cry of pain or signets will work


 * Well, the mission briefing specifically said we'd have problems trying to interrupt Kuunavang. So I'm not surprised.


 * I never had any trouble interrupting her at all, I just put Broadhead Arrow on my Jin, along with Savage and Distracting. The only time Kuunavang got Scales off, was at the beginning of the final fight. --Psyche 02:03, 16 January 2007 (CST)

Bosses
I've seen a couple bosses here, anyone know what they were? Ranger and Monk I *think* near the end. - Greven 12:36, 29 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Nevermind, it appears they're in the Unwaking Waters article (which should be merged with this one). - Greven 14:48, 29 May 2006 (CDT)

Bugged?
Anyone else having problems that having completed this mission, it doesnt show as completed on the world map? My guild and I completed it at Master level and got the xp, but it shows blank on the world map. - Neon 00:31, 6 May 2006 (BST)
 * I think its because there is one on each side (Kurzick and Luxon ally in this one). I'm going to complete the other side and see if they show up then. | Chuiu 19:31, 5 May 2006 (CDT)
 * [[Image:Swords_Showing.jpg]]
 * Bingo. | Chuiu 01:08, 6 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I just completed only the Kurzick side and the master reward shows on my world map. Perhaps it's been fixed since Chuiu's comment.  --68.142.14.12 06:05, 17 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I have tahnnakai temple, boreas seabed and unwaking masters and my count shows 3/13 &mdash; Skuld  10:05, 6 June 2006 (CDT)


 * This happened and is still happening to me. When I first did Unwaking waters and got Masters, it showed on my "Protector of Cantha" title track. Then SOMETHING made it go away. Like a few days later. I had to do it again. By then I had both unlcoked and when I got Masters on the Kurzick side, both of them updates with the three strikes.
 * Now I have this problem with another -unknown- mission. I have masters on 12 missions (on the map) but it says I only have 11/13. :( My guess is that it's Vizunah Square. I think the collaborative missions are the ones messed up. --Karlos 17:57, 6 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Hm...."Note: Mission numbering here represents the missions' order in the plot. Notice that there are two different missions under the number 9, which are both needed for completing the 13 Canthan missions, in order to get the Protector of Cantha title. Unwaking Waters, on the other hand, which has two different starting outposts, is actualy just one mission." taken from the Mission Overviews page. i guess that might be the problem. i heard somewhere that Canthan characters can reach Foreign Quarter somehow, but i'm not sure about that. Heist23


 * If you finish the storyline as a Canthan character, you can access the Foreign Quarter.


 * If you party up with a Tyrian player doing Welcome to Cantha (or presumably a Elonian), you will be brought with them when they enter the Foreign Quarter. ScionOfErixalimar 01:01, 8 November 2006 (CST)

Explorable Area?
consider merge with the Unwaking Waters %28Mission%29 article and creation of an article for the explorable area? The Explorable area seems an important part of factions.. its one of the few places where a party is defeated if they all die.. as opposed to being resurrected.. possible farming location of the future --Techma 17:06, 7 May 2006 (CDT)
 * I was never declared 'defeated' and sent back to town. Both times I was there I just went to the nearest res shrine.  Though the 2nd time I was there the other person was surprised we were ressed and not sent to town so there must be some sort of requirement for ressing.  Possibly being aligned with the side that controls that area.  Chuiu (T/C)  18:12, 8 May 2006 (CDT)
 * This should be merged with the Mission article - all the links in the mission lists point to that. I think this is supposed to be a redirect to that and Explorable / Location should be separate articles again.--MasterPatricko 08:12, 13 May 2006 (CDT)

Weirdness interrupting Kuunavang
The first time I played through this mission, I used my assassin with disrupting stab to interrupt Kuunavang's spores/scales. It worked fine. The second time, I was playing through with a warrior guildmate. I told him to bring an interrupt and it worked fine (I don't know which he took, but it was either savage slash, distracting blow, or both). Then, I played through with my E/Me and found power return wasn't working. I was definitely "hitting" her spells, but they weren't being interrupted. I was pretty confused so I mapped back and swapped in cry of frustration and she still wasn't being interrupted although it was showing the "!@#$" and cry's damage.

She was still being interrupted sometimes, just not by me. I had a full compliment of 15 henchmen both goes with my E/Me, but I didn't really pay attention to who I had. I think my selected henchmen were Gai, Danika, Karl, Cynn, Aidan, Erys, Sheena, and Brutus and the henchman team was Aeson, Tai, Zho, Kai, Talon, and perhaps Hala and Argo. I don't recall who the last one was at all (Gita?), but I don't think it was Daeman since they had Zho. Only Erys and Hala have interrupts, but since mine failed I was thinking that for some reason spell interrupts weren't working. None of the henchman articles list interrupts for the others besides Daeman (and I think they don't have any), so I have no idea what was going on. --68.142.14.9 17:58, 23 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I just tried it again with my assassin to try to figure out what was going on. I tried it on the Kurzick side again and the Luxon henchmen I got were Zho, Daemen, Aurora, Aeson, Tai, Talon, Kai and... someone else.  Disrupting stab did not work this time, but when she was dazed by one of the rangers, she was actually easily interruptible.  So, is this a change or did my henchmen always keep her dazed through the last part before?  Hmm.  --68.142.14.9 20:27, 23 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I've found that you need to interupt her three times with mesmer skills for it to work - specifically Power Spike, Psychic Distraciton, and once more with Psychic Distraction. On my ranger Concussion Shot worked like a charm, but perhaps that's due to the Dazed feature and more attacks were poured in, interupting her.--Dragonaxe 17:58, 7 June 2006 (CDT)

Agree with merge
It's rather unusual to not have this particular article information merged with Unwaking Waters (Mission) as that seems to be more of the standard naming convention. - Greven 18:19, 2 June 2006 (CDT)

Added Walkthough
Added walkthough. People seem to have a lot of trouble with this mission. Hope it helps.

2 party mission?
Why is this listed as a 2 party mission is the Factions mission list? I didn't see a second party and there is no mention in the article of a second party. -- (talk) 03:19, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
 * There are two Parties of 8 for this mission one group from luxon side and one group from Kurzicks. ~ Zero rogue x 03:25, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Where is the other party then? I only saw my own party (Kurzicks) which had me, Kalomeli and 6 hench. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 03:29, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Added notes. The original author did mention 15 henchmen, though. By the way, you comment is a good example showing why the two-party system is very badly designed: you didn't even notice the other party (possibly all hench). -- Ledrug 03:40, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Lol. I knew I am poor at watching my surroundings, but I couldn't have missed a whole party, could I? --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 03:41, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Well I don't know about you, but first time I tried the mission the other party happened to be all henchmen, and I only noticed their existence after they were fully wiped out. On the other hand, this mission is fully doable with one party anyhow. -- Ledrug 03:46, 25 July 2006 (CDT)


 * If the other team is full henchmen, they don't spawn until the mission start timer hits zero. --68.142.14.19 05:01, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Okay, they might hae spawned behind me and died soon in the first battle. Or something. :D We still did it with masters reward on first try and one party only. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 07:46, 25 July 2006 (CDT)

well thats happened to me even though it says thell be a hnchman party there is'nt so its kinda hard to play like that. but the best way to do it is to just hope for a real player thats how i beat that mission--Wondering player 18:43, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

also good
you can take a warrior with you with grenth's balance, let him tank and he does like 400 dmg. ~fotovince

This isn't a dervish-friendly mission, but you can retain all dervish skills and beat it. Avatar of Lyssa is most helpful here, because you can keep an entirely melee build for afflicted and the final battle. This enables you to still do decent damage with a bow with no ranger attributes, since Kuunavang is almost constantly activating a skill. StarrTheInsane 01:16, 2 August 2007 (CDT)

Dialogue glitch
It seems that even if a female character is the party leader, the PC voice used during the end cutscene is still the male one. I've seen this every time I've finished the mission. Highly amusing, I might add.
 * Was the other side an all hench team? I saw a similar bug once when I was doing Vizunah Square from the canthan side and the Tyrian team was all henches. -- Gordon Ecker 00:31, 10 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Was just wondering about this bug myself. Had a dude and seven henchies on the other side, the dude who was talking (a female from our side, not me but I was the leader) had a male voice. Odd. --Armond Warblade (talk) 02:37, 26 February 2007 (CST)
 * same problem only with a male charecter sounding female ithink i also had the problem on vinuzah squareWondering player 18:42, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

Interrupting Kuunavang – Ranger Skills
While doing this mission i took broad head arrow savage shot and distracting shot to interrupt. Whenever I used broadhead arrow it didnt seem to daze kunnavang at all. However i had 100% success in interrupting corrupted dragon scales when using savage shot followed by distracting shot (note:there is only just enough time to get both shots off before the skill is cast. I found i could only interrupt corrupted dragon scales this way).(Ham Popcorn Solo 07:32, 30 September 2006 (CDT))


 * Any of you rangers tried pet interrupts on her while administering the bow interrupts? --Jawn Sno 13:26, 16 March 2007 (CDT)
 * She's, uhh, out of melee range... [[Image:ShidoSig_moebius2.gif]] 18:44, 22 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Here is the clue to owning the mission and making kuunavang less harmless than a warden with the same hp. take a ranger who has Broad Head Arrow,Distracting shot, savage shot,leech signet and pin down.Other skills are optional for the situation, you can go for concussion shot if you want for a last interrupt. The most common misconception is that most of her SKILLS are SKILLS and not just SPELLS.Maybe you can even go Paragon secondary, take a spear and get wild throw to cancel renewing corruption.

Here is what you should do at the beginning (i did this build on my Jin with 12 beast mastery and EoE to kill faster the afflicted).First fight is cake, put EoE at the portal, so they are in range but dont kill it. approach kuunavang, but dont aggro yet. look when she starts to use her preparation, corrupted breath. When she does it, go in ASAP and pin down. Then pummel a bit until you see that she doesnt move ,then use your BHA.By this time, she will start to use her nasty skills.Your main priority for interruption is corrupted scales, then corrupted spores, then the preparation. simply ignore the dark chain lightning if you are the only one running this build.it is better to use distracting shot on scales, so they recharge even slower.If you broad head arrow didnt work,look for when she starts to cast scales/spores and bang her with concussion shot, which is 100% sure daze. When she begins to retreat, pin her down again so you can pound on her some more. Dispatch the afflicted with EoE, without aggroing her. Then use same strategy. Then kill afflicted again, without aggroing her.after the 2nd group of afflicted you should be sure that she is pinned down, and you wont have to kill the rest of the afflicted, she will die like that.

In the temple: forget pin down, broad head arrow immediately, but be sure that you wont be knocked down by dark chain lightning. charge your spear wild throw so you can cancel stance and continue interrupting. Surprise, I did mission in 7:22 with that build, I was nuker and there was a MM in my group.--Batno mercy 10:46, 18 May 2007 (CDT)

to the guy who said 250 or 200
i read somwhere that it does 10percent less damage per jump of attack hope that clarifies your problem--Wondering player 18:44, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

Bug?
I'm prety sure there was a bug in my run through, I did it with Tahlkora, Koss, Acoulyte Sousuke, another Interrupt Ranger + his Interrupt Ranger heroe, and one hench. The other team was all hench. Somehow, we only weakened Kuunavang twice, and we beat the mission litterally in about four minutes. Is this a bug or something or am I stupid?
 * If you deal enough damage (get her to something like 20-30% HP), you can skip to the end. [[Image:ShidoSig_moebius2.gif]] 19:27, 24 April 2007 (CDT)
 * i have done this with my 2 sf heroes (i am one to) but i still had my foundry build on with deep freeze so when we had to battle her the first time she got killed thx to my deep freeze and my meteor shower interrupting hench^^ unfortunally we got stuck in the second part of the mish if we would have made it we would surely be done in less then 4 minutes --Fox007 14:13, 11 May 2007 (CDT)

Skimming on the edge
I had wanted to scout around the mission area boundaries and chalk up more explored regions before actually attempting the mission itself. In doing so, I ended up completed the mission using a Ranger in just over 6 mins without firing a single shot at the Afflicted. Since I actually got masters from that, I didn't bother doing the mission again. I want to verify if this can be an alternative strategy to completing the missions with all henchies.

I entered from the Luxon side and took the two Rangers. I don't remember who else I took with me but the Interrupt Ranger is crucial. Once the mission started, I took a left turn and headed straight to the edge of the map and started to skim along it. The henchies started to engage the Afflicted, but when the distance got too far apart, they started to follow me. Upon reaching the first barrier, my party attacked Kuunavang in order to pass. I repeated this to clear the other barriers. This brought me to the final room with my party intact. I wasn't aware of the second party too, they might have been wiped out previously. Their engagement might have diverted the attention away from my party.

I didn't equip interrupt skills, all the interrupting was done by the ranger hench. He interrupted every single one of Kuunavang's Corrupted Dragon Scales. The mission ended in 6:15.

I repeated this once and ended up getting wiped out. Beginner's luck maybe? I'm positive this can be a viable strategy for masters though...

Spell Failure
Since it is a spell that targets a foe, would it be possible, rather than interrupting Corrupted Dragon Scales, to have it fail instead (using Guilt for example)? -Io 16:05, 14 May 2007 (CDT)

Easy
I got 5:57 on an all hench party with 2 melees...Is this mission supposed to be hard? --RHCP Fan1 01:42, 19 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Increased damage output means you can hit Kuunavang hard, to the point you skip battles. And since you skip battles, you end up with a lower time. Good job though! --Kale Ironfist 03:44, 19 August 2007 (CDT)


 * Dang, and I thought my 6:48 was good :( But yeah, I only had to weaken Kuunavang 3 times, as opposed to the 4 the walkthrough states. The last time, the mob of afflicted that was supposed to be there barely just managed to enter the aggro bubble by the time of the cut scene.  But the situation was similar, 3 heroes and the rest were hench.  Kuunavang didn't even manage to get off a single spell either thanks to all the anti spell skills that I brought and my heroes brought.  Born to Mes 21:28, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * 5:48. I had no idea what I was doing, as I hadn't read the article yet. I had two melee henches: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v253/merick888/Unwaking.jpg Merick 03:24, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Just did in 6:06 :( 0 deaths only had to weaken kuunavang 2 times


 * 5:.35 on my first attempt with my dervish. Wooot!  118.92.35.136 07:12, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Ditto on the glitch where I didn't have to weaken 4 times, only 3, getting it in 5:54 (not bragging on time, just showing glitch).129.2.217.219 08:45, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

lol, i got 6:22--Relyk 05:02, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Hench Party
Just an idea that someone should add the two henchmen parties (like if the Kurzick side is all henchmen, what henchmen are they) if they're always the same set.

Overkill with Pain Inverter, SV and Finish Him.
Image:Malum-UnwakingWaters-HM-in1min24sec.jpg We managed to almost kill Kuunavang the first time we saw her. Took us straight to the temple after. =P Just shows how powerful EotN skills are. Not that i'm complaining. :D Bigrat2   Talk  02:06, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Afflicted spawing during the movie
The first time I ever played this mission, after weakening Kuunavang for the final time (I made sure we did not get the last 2 mobs of afflicted, as discribed in the walkthrough), I watched the cinematic. but wen we got to the chamber a dozen or so afflicted apeared during the cinnematic. I skipped it as fast as possible, but fighting a mob of afflicted and Kuunavang at the same time proved to much for my party and we got wiped. the second time it did the mission, i had no trouble at all, we got the masters reward without any trouble. My question: has anyone had the same bug/glich? Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 14:11, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Nope, but i'll look out for it! RT | Talk 15:36, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I took Olias with Bone Minions. I finished it in no more than 5 minutes. 84.84.179.39 18:51, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

This mission is possible in HM with heroes and henchmen on your team and full henchmen on the other. Finished it in 8:26 Just get a ranger hero with BHA and 3 other interrupts, daeman and the rest is up to you (i had a SF ele, an air ele, hench monks and the rit hench, me as a paragon - only PvE skill used was TntF) (Kyuuzo 20:49, 22 January 2008 (UTC))

henchmen
What are the best henchman to survive and deal damage for this mish? If u want u can help me just add Balistic Elementmax to ur list--Balistic Pve 02:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
 * its best to use the interrupt henc, from both luxon and kurtzick side, and use only 1 or 2 assasins or warriors, or asorted characters. Then max out the ranged damage (rangers, ele's, etc.) and then make sure you interrupt Corrupted Dragon Scales. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 18:18, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Other group leaving
Maybe it should be mentioned that if the leader of the other party (if it's all henchmen) leaves, then that party dies and it becomes a 1 group mission?
 * please sign your posts. Four tildes (~) And I am not sure that this happens, because, when i want to do this mission, all i get is a npc party. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 18:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

srry im a wikinoob atm,that was me above,but i did it with hench, and 1 person with a whole hench group joined, then left straight away. Once the timer reaced 0:00, that team died, and I was forced to leave as it was only my group left Ipo 11:49 16 February 2008
 * Hmmm, though luck for you, but as I said I haven't had this. We could field-test it, if you want. What's your ingame name? Mine is The Emperors Angel. I might not be on a lot the coming week, because I have a lot of tests coming up.Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 11:57, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

ok, ign is either Ipo The Assassin (Kurz side) or Bladewarrior Ipo (Luxon side), just gimme a shout anytime you're free --Ipo 16:00, 17 February 2008 (Utc)
 * It would be best to use the luxon side dude, because I havent got the Luxon side (I am getting close though...) on my warrior.Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 16:13, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, ive got 2 images showing the bug (1 b4 other leader leaves and 1 of dead allied team), its just that they r like 409KB and i dont wanna break anything, so can either somebody help resize them or w/e or i'll just wait until Arnout aka The Emperors Angel is online so he can upload the images if we test it. --Ipo 19:09, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * You could try hosting the image on imageshack or photobucket and then just post the link here --Cobalt | Talk  19:37, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * klkl i'll try that, thanks--Ipo 19:39, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I can verify that this is true. I've had this happen to me on a couple of occasions.  Although, it was aprox. 4-5 months ago.  Aggro [[Image:Isk8.png]]  Sk8  19:49, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * 'http://img106.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gw2632fx2.jpg&s=1'
 * 'http://img106.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gw265dy9.jpg&s=1' Here are the two images, first one showing the other party leader, second showing dead allied team with no leader--Ipo 20:08, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * This happened me TWICE in a row, both time kurzick leader left, leaving us alone. 1st time we left right after, and second time we pwnd Kuunavang with half supposed ppl. Anyways, hate when it happens. Kemal 20:13, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * think it should be mentioned in article? (i'll break something if I change anything)--Ipo 20:17, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm contemplating it now, just trying to come up with the right wording. -- Aggro [[Image:Isk8.png]]  Sk8  20:20, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * klkl, i feel happy with myself, i contributed to the wiki :) --Ipo 20:23, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Does this only happen if the person leaves before the timer reaches zero? Aggro [[Image:Isk8.png]]  Sk8  20:26, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * no, i tried b4 and after timer. Same thing happens after timer --Ipo 20:28, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Blah, figures... Going to modify note I just saved, LOL Aggro [[Image:Isk8.png]] Sk8  20:29, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * nicely said--Ipo 20:31, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Well all edited up. I chose to not place my note at the bottom, as I felt it fit in more after the first comment about the 2 party teams. Congratulations on your contribution to the wiki Ipo :D Aggro  Sk8  20:32, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * This is a two-party mission, with one party coming from Luxon side and the other from Kurzick. If no party joined from the other side at mission start, an all-henchmen team will be used instead.
 * If a human player in an all hero and henchmen team leaves at any time during the mission, the leftover heroes and henchmen will automatically die, causing the remaining team to either go on alone, or restart.


 * Should we put the Bug template on this note?--Cobalt  | Talk  20:39, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm, good question. One would think this is would be a bug... I would definitely hope this is not by design.  I wonder, does this happen in Vizunah Square? Aggro [[Image:Isk8.png]]  Sk8  20:41, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Lol i was just thinking about vizunah square, i'll test it tomorrow if nobody has confirmed by then (i cba now) but my guess is yes the same thing applies. As for wether its a bug, you could either say:


 * Yes: If Anet intended this to happen then clearly they have a problem
 * No: If a party is entirely heroes and henchmen then who is going to lead them if the user leaves, also, if they followed the leader of the party who didn't quit that player might be getting use of heroes which he/she hasn't unlocked.


 * Which raises the question: If a party is 7 henchmen, 1 player and no heroes, does this still occur? --<font color="Blue">Cobalt </B>| <font color="Green">Talk</B>  20:45, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * well im willing to test that, but it'll have to wait until tommorrow, but i'm pretty sure it would be the same. --Ipo 20:48, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes this does occur with 7 henchmen. That is how I experienced this.  I had to go by your screenshots to prove it works with heroes/hench.  I cant see it being by design from Anet, because the mission WILL give you a full henchman team if no party is available on the other side.  Aggro [[Image:Isk8.png]]  Sk8  20:53, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * If this happens before the mission starts, it's easy enough to just start over. It may well be intentional that the other party disappears, so that you notice and start over, rather than trying to do the whole mission down a character or two.  Personally, I found the mission easier to do with a henchmen party from the other side than even a pretty good player party.  Henchmen follow a lot closer than other players, and the two parties separating much causes big problems.  Quizzical 20:56, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * True, but if you are half way though, and the other person on the other side up and quits, and all his heroes and/or hench die instantly, you are going to be hurting, and feel fairly screwed over. Henchmen teams can go both ways... it all depends on what you get on the other side.  Typically with both this mission and vizunah, we attempt to "Sync" with a group on the other side.  Hit the enter mission buttons at the same time to try to get into the same group as each other.  We typically have a 75% success rate with this.  Aggro [[Image:Isk8.png]]  Sk8  21:00, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Vizunah Square is far more forgiving of the two groups spreading out a bit, since the mobs also spread out. For what it's worth, I've never failed Unwaking Waters with a henchmen group from the other side (8-0) and never completed it with a player group (0-3).  Quizzical 21:14, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Well i guess this makes me, and my field-testing a bit useless. But it saves me some time and trouble. So thank you all for this. Ipo, i don't think fieldtesting is required anymore. But you didn't tell me you had screen shots off this occuring. Would be nice to know the next time, i was already making time in my study plans to go online..... Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 07:39, 18 February 2008 (UTC)