Talk:Spirit

Undead?
Has anyone tried if Binding Ritual Spirits are undead? -- 07:22, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Reminder to self - check this info on 3/24. -PanSola 15:27, 16 February 2006 (CST)

Merge/Split
I see a high risk of redundant information of this article with Nature Ritual and Binding Ritual. I'd prefer if we keep it like it was before: Make Spirit a disambig page between Ghost, Nature Ritual and Binding Ritual and treat the respective spirits there. -- 07:22, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree, I came here to look at this page to see if there was information on the interactions of spirits with effects (Conditions, Hexes, Enchants), health per level, etc. The information is good, but I think it should be more generic for this page. --Ravious 11:19, 1 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I see a high risk of redundant information of Nature Ritual and Binding Ritual, because of what Spirits share in common. Thus I actually would rather propose make the rituals redirect here.  There is also the option of making sure the ritual pages only explain about the rituals, and the spirits only about the spirits, but that's overly-dividing information into different articles. And Ravious, you can't exactly agree with someone when you are proposing something differently.  Tetris is proposing to remove all contents from this page, whereas you are proposing to make this page cover things that are only generically related to spirits.
 * Anyways, I disagree making this page a disambig, since Spirit is a proper target type in the game, and the game doesn't care about the difference between Binding vs Natural spirits (AND the Binding spirits are sufficiently diverse themselves we might as well keep all the diversity in the same page). Thus someone who wish to look up Spirit as a target type has one centralized place to look things up, as opposed to checking two different articles to see if the information Ravious is looking for exists and/or the same for spirits created by different kind of rituals. -PanSola 15:04, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, I could live with that, but in that case the article must mention Ghosts as the third type of Spirits more prominently, because clearly Ghosts are spirits too. See Talk:Ghost. -- 06:28, 2 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Ugh, I missed this when it took place, but this was a bad decision. The Ritualist Spirits and the Nature Spirits have only the word "spirit" in common and the fact that they are static. I think they should have been two separate articles with the spirit as a disambig. Binding Spirits are a LOT more things than Nature Spirits. --Karlos 04:36, 26 March 2006 (CST)


 * FWIW, I agree with Karlos. I figured it wasn't imminently important (wasn't entirely sure how different Binding Rituals would be), but it's pretty clear they deserve their own talk.  However, has it been shown that the spirits are actually different (in terms of skills that affect spirits, like Spirit Transfer?  I'm not sure it needs a strict disambig page as much as a "Spirit" page, and then two more pages (for Nature and Binding). --JoDiamonds 23:46, 26 March 2006 (CST)


 * I've heard of no results suggesting skills that affect "Spirits" (not specifying Nature or Binding) treats them differently. And in the absence of contary evidence, I will take in-game description literally.  Thus, I will assume skills like Spirit Transfer and Spirit Walk do not differenciate Nature vs Binding spirits.  If the information is split, the article Spirit needs to be kept as an overarching page, as opposed to a disambiguation. -SolaPan 00:19, 27 March 2006 (CST)


 * The Ritualist Spirits and the Nature Spirits have only the word "spirit" in common and the fact that they are static. What is the phrase you usually say?  "I categorially disagree"?  I personally find more similarities between Nature and Binding spirits than I find differences.  If, based on the current state of the Spirit article, you split them into Binding Spirit and Nature Spirit, and copy the common things over to the two articles as opposed to keeping them in this article, you will find that at least 50% of the content in Binding Spirits is mirrored in Nature Spirits, and the part of the Binding Spirit article that is different from Nature Spirit actually talks about how binding spirits are different from each other.  Except for for the looks and the profession that created them, anything that is commonly shared across all binding spirits, are also common to all nature spirits. -SolaPan 01:11, 27 March 2006 (CST)

Tallying similarities/differences
Let's put this to the test then, I will try to list the commonalities and the differences, add to either side as you see fit. I will add comments too.

Commonalities:
 * Summoned creatures (as are minions).
 * Static: Do not move.
 * Same Range.
 * Expirey: They die after a whle (but do not degenerate like minions)
 * Draw Spirit draws both types.
 * They both have levels which, I guess, determines their hit points.

Differences:
 * Nature spirits are always area of effect. Binding spirits are AoE or other things.
 * Nature Rituals affect all, Binding spirits NEVER affect all.
 * Nature spirits will never "do" anything, they just stand around. Binding Spirits can attack, they can use skills.
 * Appearance: Very different look. The Nature Spirits share the look of Druids while Binding Spirits share the look of Banshees and other foul ghosts of the underworld. (They do have different looks among them, one guy looks like a green translucent Chained Soul).

So, ok, I was exaggerating a little about the only commonality being that they stand around. :) Now, add/object to these and when we are done, let's make an informed decision. --Karlos 08:38, 27 March 2006 (CST)

Additional commonalities
It's funny how in your commonalities you did not list a single bullet point from the "General" section of the article. I know long ago you had a history of not reading the article when commenting on it, but this is just overdoing it ~_~""" -SolaPan 09:50, 27 March 2006 (CST)
 * Skills that affect all creatures within the skills range, such as Heal Area and effects of Nature Rituals, have no effect on Spirits.
 * Death of a spirit triggers a Necromancer's Soul Reaping.
 * Spirits created by foes are considered foes.
 * Hexes that target foes can be casted on Spirits, but will have no effect.
 * Spirits are immune to conditions.
 * Spirits created by allies are not considered allies (eg skills that depend on allies in the area won't consider spirits as allies).
 * Skills that target allies can be casted on Spirits, but will have no effect.


 * The reason I restarted this debate is becaus eI read the article and did not liek how it looked. As for "having a long history of commenting on the article without reading it," I am not sure why the cheap shots, but whatever works for you. As for why I did not list those commonalities, because I object to most of them being valid in this discussion. My definition of a commonality is: Something they have in common that is NOT common with other things. That's why I said "minions are also created" up there. Here goes:
 * Death of anything triggers a necromancer's soul reaping. Death of NPCs, death of the ghost in the box.
 * Minions created by foes, are considered foes.
 * This is the one weird thing I don't understand.
 * Like some undead.
 * Minions created by allies are not allies.
 * Meaningles point.
 * Like I said, a true commonality is something common to them that is not common to them and a whole class of other things. --Karlos 21:01, 27 March 2006 (CST)
 * Ah, thanks for explaining why you didn't list any of them. Let me restructure some of the points and refute some of your objections.
 * Creatureness of spirits - Skills that affect all creatures, such as Heal Area, does not affect spirits. However, Spirits do trigger Soul Reaping.
 * Hexes that target foes can be casted on Spirits created by foes, but will have no effect. Other skills that target foes will work normally on spirits.
 * Spirits are immune to conditions. (Saying "like some undead" is not a valid refute, since there are no indicitaion whatsoever that spirits are a subclass of undead).
 * Allyness of Spirits. Spirits created by allies are valid targets for skills that target allies, but the skills will have no effect (similar to hexes that target foes).  Skills that are affected by allies in the area also do not count spirits as allies.  (Minions created by allies ARE allies, otherwise you wouldn't be able to caste healing breeze on minions).


 * Overall I disagree the "because minions are this way too" method of refutation. It would only be a valid approach if there was a "Created Creature" article that covers everything common to both spirits and minions, OR if you classify spirits as a subclass of minions.  -SolaPan 22:18, 27 March 2006 (CST)


 * Look, a lot of what is up there could be nicely rewritten into part of the article. But without trying to actually enter the fray, I there's a little too much proving someone else wrong rather than actually deciding what is good for the Wiki.
 * Clear: There should be a page somewhere that details the commonalities and differences of Nature vs. Binding spirits. It shouldn't actually be this talk page.  ;)  It almost certainly should not be on two separate pages, one for Nature and one for Binding, because (as this talk page demonstrates) it's more detailed than is going to be reasonable to put on separate pages that talk about each other.
 * If there's enough that's unique about either Binding or Nature spirits to give them their own page, let's just give them both their own page to make things simpler and clearer.
 * Proposal: Three pages. One for Spirits (which includes differences between Nature and Binding spirits), one for Nature Spirits, and one for Binding Spirits.  The main spirits page essentially fufills the role of the disambig page, but obviously there are some commonalities and differences that can be usefully listed on one page.  The thing I'm wariest of is actually having content for the Nature Spirit page (since they are rather simple, once you account for all the things that are common across Spirits in general, they mostly don't do anything else at all).  In which case, I could see the possibility that it should all be one page, but I have this feeling there's more to Binding and Nature spirits than is coming to mind, and enough to fill individual pages.
 * --JoDiamonds 00:06, 28 March 2006 (CST)
 * Hehe, I am wary that there's not much to talk about for Binding spirits due to their diversity. Took me a while to generalize them into 4 sub-types, otherwise the Bindine spirits section would've been almost empty.  Anyways, I am not opposed to three articles, I'm just also wary of similary things. -SolaPan 04:58, 28 March 2006 (CST)

Created?
"Spirits are [...] created by rituals" <- I doubt that the ritual creates the spirit. I think the spririt was already there before being summoned. It's just that it is living in the ethereal world and hence invisible to the mortal eye. Through the conjuring ritual the spririt is bound and becomes visible for a limited time. At least this is how it works according to common myth. I'll change the article accordingly. -- 06:28, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I maintain that Guild Wars do many things different from common myths, and we should only go by what is in-game and not assume what is common. I specifically checked to make sure Binding Rituals also say "Create a level blah spirit...", just like Nature Rituals, when I wrote that line.  They are is typically created because there is that one odd skill which isn't a ritual and use different wording.
 * Having said that, the Chinese localization does say "Summon" instead of "Create". But they also translate the world "Folly" into "Weird Building" (which is semi-acceptable for Wizard's Folly, if you don't care about being literal, as the place does have that tower.  But they also did the same with Witman's Folly, and that just make absolutely no sense).
 * Until Anet in their next revamp of skill descriptions modify the wording from "Create" to "Summon", I'm going to continue arguing they are typically created as opposed to summoned. Does it make any sense?  I think it's just on the edge of being rationalizable, but I still will go with whatever the game says. -PanSola 13:12, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
 * How about they summon the misterious dark matter creature, which insantly dies after smelling the summoners bad breath and leaves a spirit? =P --Xeeron 17:43, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Well that does nothing to reconcil the "Create" part, but thanks for trying anyways d-: -PanSola 20:28, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
 * How about we replace the word "create" with "summon"? I think that's a better term, and it leaves some room for interpretation. -- 03:31, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I see the issue being "Create" implies coming into being, whereas "Summon" implies calling to appear at the location. Add to the fact that somewhere its mentioned (not in game, but either in the manual or website) that the Nature spirits are totems, it just feels weird to "summon" them.  What is wrong with going by wording of the game (just to remind again, the in-game description say "Create")? -PanSola 06:21, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * We already had the discussion about "totems" in Talk: Ghost. I find the term "totem" very missleading, because to most people "totem" means a dead object, although according to Wikipedia it can also be a supernatural being. The Nature Ritual spirits in GuildWars are not dead objects. If you look very closely, they move slightly and they blink their eyes. They are more like small Druids who stay in one position.
 * One more thing: The term "Binding Ritual" implies that the spirit is bound by the ritual, not created. You can actually see the ethereal chains that bind the spirit. Why would you have to bind something that you created? And what would happen if the spirit breaks the chains and escapes? According to my theory it would disappear, back into the ethereal world, and become invisible again.
 * Anyway ... the ingame description clearly says "create". If you insists, we'll use that wording on this wiki, by policy, even though I think ANet actually had "summon" in mind, but didn't put enough precission into their description. *Sigh* -- 08:56, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Tetris, I thought I read in your user page that you had a kid? Binding indicates controling them to do your will, has your child, that you (in part) created, ever done anything that was against your will?  If not just wait until he/she is a little older, it will happen.  :P  And I agree that we should go with the in-game terminology as we have in the past.  If in-game it says "create" we should use create.  --Rainith 11:51, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Health and Armor for each level
I'm interested in finding out the health and armor of spirits at each level, and also whether it's the same across for all spirits (there might be a difference between the Nature and the Binding spirits).

When testing armor, it's ok if you don't know how to work the damage equations, as long as you list:
 * How much damage your skill is supposed to deal (and which skill you used)
 * How much damage actually happen
 * Your level
 * Your attributes
 * If you used a weapon, make sure to only record damage from critical hits (such as Wild Blow or use fixed damage range weapons, and specify the weapon's requirement.


 * I haven't done it yet, but as a testing note, using Spirit Transfer is a pretty simple way to count a spirits health in a random safe area (say on the Isle of the Nameless). You don't need anyone else or any enemies, just heal yourself by draining the spirit. --JoDiamonds 01:05, 26 March 2006 (CST)

Spirits in the same area
The article says "If a second allied spirit of the same name is created within the range of the first spirit, the first spirit will die without taking any damage.". Does anyone know how this applies to spirits created with binding rituals? When a second spirit of the same type is crated by the same character, it definitely kills the first spirit, but I didn't think to test how this works with spirits created by other allies. Does anyone know if there's different rules for the four different types of binding ritual spirits? Also, what happens when you use Draw Spirit to drag one spirit into another spirit's area? -- Gordon Ecker 14:22, 4 April 2006 (CDT)
 * No clue. The data I got was from the PvP weekend, tested by myself alone on hte Isle of the Nameless.  I would assume binding rituals and nature rituals all work identically in this regard though.  The "four different types" are just a generalization I made by going through skill descriptions, the game doesn't technically split them into 4 different types, or if it does, it's completely coincedental.  The Draw Spirit is a really good question, guess we'll have to test that when Factions is out. -SolaPan 14:50, 4 April 2006 (CDT)
 * Works the same for 2 casters and binding rituals. No idea about draw spirit. --Xeeron 19:04, 4 April 2006 (CDT)
 * I know that the 'four different types' are probably just a generalisation, but I suspected that spirits whose effects can't stack like Recuperation or Earthbind, and spirits that aren't really that powerful like Pain and Bloodsong, might be restricted to one per ritualist, while spirits that could get really nasty in larger numbers like Dissonance, Shadowsong and Wanderlust might be restricted to one per party. But I guess I'm wrong. -- Gordon Ecker 06:57, 5 April 2006 (CDT)