Talk:Guide to defeating Magni the Bison/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archived
I don't think I broke anything... --Toraen 02:00, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Ranger build attributes
I'm kind of inclined to revert Toraen's change to the attributes listed on the ranger build, but figured I'd look for an explanation here first. Against M. Bison, the changes make the build unambigously worse. The extra point in expertise does nothing for you, as neither of the skills linked to expertise are used in that battle. It doesn't save any energy, as the 14th point in expertise only affects 10 and 25 energy skills, neither of which are used in that battle.

Losing the point in marksmanship, on the other hand, can really hurt. 11 was already low; unless you're higher than 12, each additional point taken out of marksmanship docks you more than 8% of your base damage. Since it's mostly vanilla bow attacks that kill M. Bison, this can make the battle take quite a bit longer.

But what really hurts is losing duration on Pin Down and Hunter's Shot, the two skills that you use. You want to keep M. Bison perpetually crippled so he can't hit you, and bleeding to cancel his health regeneration. At only 10 marksmanship, you're using 9 energy every 11 seconds for those, which uses up most of your energy regeneration. At 11 marksmanship, it's the same 9 energy used, but now only every 12 seconds. That leaves quite a bit more leeway for error, whether to use other skills to heal if you mess up, refresh crippled before it wears off, or whatever.

There's also the issue of peculiar specialty gear. Crippling bowstrings are pretty much worthless in nearly all PvE, with this battle being the only exception that I can think of. I think my ranger had about 6 different bowstrings that I used for PvE (counting all the elemental types as only one), but not a crippling one, because it wasn't nearly as commonly useful as the others. While one could make up for the loss of crippling duration with such a bowstring, assuming that players have it is a bad idea.

Getting to 14 expertise also takes specialty gear that a lot of players won't have. Either you'd need a major or superior attribute rune or expertise headgear. I usually used 9 expertise; for pve purposes, a ranger usually can't justify more than that unless using only expertise and marksmanship, some gimmick farming build, or relying heavily on a secondary profession and not using a bow at all. Incidentally, the previous 13-11-11 attributes listed have the same requirements, but someone could easily drop drop wilderness survival to 10 without much harm.

Is there some earlier opponent where the additional point in expertise makes a big difference? When I did this on my ranger (albeit on a different build; pin down wasn't viable for M. Bison at the time, as its duration was too short), the opponents that were the most troublesome were those that were strong enough healers as to be a pain to kill. I'd think that gimping your damage with reduced marksmanship would make those harder, not easier. Quizzical 06:10, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Completely with ya on this. Although I won't resort to walling ;) You don't need the extra point of Expertise. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  09:17, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I actually used Burning Arrow against Bison, let him Purge Sig, and then used Pin Down & Hunter's Shot, followed by another Burning Arrow while Purge Sig recharged (repeat until dead). Go ahead and revert, as it doesn't really matter (I think I did it with both attribute sets during my testing). Burning Arrow sped things up a bit, but isn't really necessary to beat him. It would make sense to have easier to obtain gear in this guide. --Toraen 17:53, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Warrior Build Note
(moved from article) Note: Through repeated testing by an experienced warrior, Danika, Kisai, Headmaster Vhang and Argo are all a challenge for this build, with even Magni himself being difficult (which is surprising for a full anti-melee build) not recommended at all.

If an experienced warrior is having problems with the build, they should bring up the specific problems here so we can hopefully make a better build or clarify its use. Quizzical (the creator of that build) tested it and all of the other single class builds (except the current ranger) extensively, so it is rather odd that someone can't get the build to work. Some skills that opponents use were updated since that build's posting, but nothing is really different in their strategies. As for the note, it doesn't seem to belong on the main page. --Toraen 14:06, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It needs an Elite to be worthy of an experienced Warrior. -- no, really, the build should work. Kisai doesn't even cause Blind anymore. On all others it ought to function fine. There could be some problems on Magni since usually one needs practice to learn how to fight him - but that isn't because the build doesn't work. I'd also like to state that just because you are an experienced player for a profession in other parts of Guild Wars, doesn't make you good at fighting in the Bison Tourney. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 14:35, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Magni shouldn't be much of a problem. He should only hit you once every aeon, and KD you every so not-very-often. Maintainable 75% block and some 100% blocks tossed in between, with 2 Heals and an Interrupt. You could interrupt his Irresistible Blow to stop him from KDing you, even. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  14:44, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps if the interrupt isn't really needed, could take something like Auspicious Parry too. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 14:53, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * You'll need it against any caster with a Heal, and esp Gwen (lol, Sig of Midnight). --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  14:55, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * (EC) Actually, Kisai's elite was changed to blinding surge, so she still blinds. But I don't see how the build would fail against the casters. I only have a level 14 warrior actually, and I think the build should work properly as is for a level 20 one. --Toraen 14:58, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Against the elementalists, you mostly stand there spamming healing signet a while until your opponent runs out of energy, and then it is easy. Well, move out of Meteor Shower, Sandstorm, and so forth, too.  That's said in the section on opponents, so I didn't restate it for each of several builds.


 * For M. Bison in particular, the build does struggle more than most of the builds I posted. It can usually beat Bison if you use it right, but isn't completely reliable.  If you mess up the tactics, it probably will fail, though.  You need to keep a blocking skill up at nearly all times, as Bison can do tremendous damage if you don't block most of his attacks.  It's often tempting to spam skills, but you have to wait a while until a blocking skill is near ending to use another skill, so that there will always be another blocking skill available to use.


 * The other thing that can easily kill you is if you heal wrong. Healing Signet is the better heal against most earlier opponents, but it's suicide against Bison.  Lion's Comfort is the much safer heal to use against Bison.  It has been relatively nerfed for this build since I tested it, as some healing was later diverted to useless adrenaline gain, which may or may not be much of a problem.


 * As for an elite, there really isn't a place to add it. Furthermore, there isn't any skill in the build for which an elite is a viable substitute.  As explained above, you need to be able to block nearly everything, which is why I brought three blocking stances.  Gladiator's Defense is not a viable substitute for any of them due to its long recharge, as that would leave you with a 20 second period with only two blocking stances available.  Auspicious Parry blocks only one attack intermittently, which might kind of work with the longer lasting stances, but would be awkward to use.  Riposte and deadly riposte are your damage, which is important, as you can't survive Bison's assaults forever.  Lion's comfort alone isn't enough of a heal for some earlier opponents, while healing signet is suicide against Bison if he doesn't get blocked--and he'll also knock you down (and hence interrupt you) while using it quite a bit.  Distracting blow helps for finishing off some earlier opponents, and the only elite warrior interrupt is skull crack, which isn't useable as often.  Quizzical 14:58, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Auspicious could be used to help refill Bonetti's and Riposte more easily, even though it is kinda clumsy. Replace Distracting Blow with Savage Slash? More damage for finishing off...meh. I wonder if there isn't a better way to do Warrior build than this. Dwarven Stability makes it cake but of course that's PvE only etc. Maybe weapon swap for Renewing Smash. Have you tried damage-oriented Axe builds or KD-oriented Hammer builds? ...or maybe a Dragonslasher (would be hard against Bison though)? [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 15:06, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I've used:

And got raped badly by Magni :P With Grenth's Balance I might've won, I got him down pretty far. You can drop Sever then, Deadly Riposte will supply sufficient Bleeding ;) --- -- (s)talkpage  15:11, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Try to trade hits and you'll get destroyed. That's why my build was designed to block most of what M. Bison does.  If you go axe, you lose riposte and deadly riposte, which greatly reduces your damage.  Try to rely on blocking and you'll have to keep Bison knocked down pretty much continuously for about two minutes, which doesn't strike me as practical.  The net effect of bleeding is to cancel M. Bison's intrinsic +3 health regeneration for bosses.  And if you use Grenth's Balance, it's no longer a warrior build.  Quizzical 16:50, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Palawa Joko
For those watching this page, you might have noticed my last edit. Here's the build I ran into him with:

His minions destroyed me, but alternate tactics might work. Interestingly, he didn't even wand me (or move at all) like Danika does. Also, when I locked him as my pet's target, he was standing close enough that the pet went and attacked him without retaliation. I did step out to see if the build itself could beat him, as he might not always stand that close (Danika does the same thing actually). Lastly, the minions appear to be carrying interrupts (contrary to what the official wiki says). --Toraen 22:23, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Marksmanship 12
 * Expertise 10
 * Wilderness Survival 10
 * Beast Mastery 9

Necro Sunspear/Norn Title to win
I'm new and I really wanted to add this build to the how to defeat M.Bison section but wasn't sure how. Can someone here review it and post it to the main page? I've been trying to defeat him for some time and was finally able to do so using this three skill build. Necrosis Ursan Blessing and "You Move Like A Dwarf!" Ursan Blessing will defeat the first five opponents and YMLAD and Necrosis will take down M.Bison. You only have to retreat so he returns to his starting point. Since Necrosis is a sunspear skill you only have to have necro available as a secondary prof. Blbailey3 03:43, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * You're using Ursan so don't bother adding it. Ursan will beat nearly every opponent with ease. :\ YMLAD + Necrosis beating Bison is interesting, though, since I don't know of any other way to do it with so few skills. What rank Norn and Sunspear did you have? [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 11:00, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Norn Rank 5 Sunspear Rank 9. Perhaps Ursan is common knowledge but I've been searching for a while with no success and no mention of Ursan. This was literally the first build that ever worked against Magni. Plus it's super easy and it'll work for every character (with Nightfall and at least as necro secondary).Blbailey3 20:05, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The reason we have tried to eliminate Ursan from these sorts of articles is because it works against...almost anything. So it doesn't merit a mention. That's fairly high Title ranks if you are starting the Tournament as soon as you get there, and for non-NF...meh. Though it should probably still work at lower ranks, as long as Cripple is permanent. One thing I would wonder about is Energy management, though, for class like Warrior or Paragon - 20 base energy wouldn't be so hot. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 20:19, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Nor would be the two pips of regen. YMLaD at maximum rank takes all of that just to keep them crippled. Rank 3 is the minimum to keep them crippled now, but that takes 3 pips of energy. Although, warriors can just use riptoses and only cripple him when they need to run and heal. Paragons have maiming spear. On a sort of related note: should we combine all of the Ursan builds on the page? Toraen (Talk  / Contrib)  19:35, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a good idea. :\ Riposte costs 5e, Deadly Riposte takes 4 Adren, so I am not sure how that would work out either. You may have to use Knee Cutter. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 19:40, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * [[image:Adrenaline.png|Riposte]]Other way around[[image:Energy.png|Deadly Riposte]], Entropy :) --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  20:22, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I think GuildWiki has been contributing to my previously unknown latent dyslexia. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 21:54, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Warrior build v2

 * 1) Mhenlo: This took forever. You have to interrupt Healing Breeze and pray that he misses his reflexes on the next cast. Otherwise it is mathematically impossible to beat him.
 * 2) Tydus: Really hard to outheal his constant degen, since he has Distracting and Savage Shot. Pray they don't hit through a blocking stance or you lose.
 * 3) Cynn: Key is to kite from Inferno and Flame Burst, and hopefully interrupt Glyph of Restoration if you can.
 * 4) Lo Sha: See Tydus. You need to interrupt Ether Feast repeatedly.
 * 5) Lukas: Destroys you with his own Ripostes and Parries. Need to switch to a Wand for Adrenaline, I think...
 * 6) Magni: I just don't see how you could ever win without Dshotting Bear Form or such. He's just too strong, too much Health. Too much a gamble.

I am going to try a Quarter knocker and see how that works. Because I can't run this Riposte build... :\ (T/C) 22:35, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I suck. Expanded tactics:


 * 1) Mhenlo: Interrupt Blessed Signet. It recharges in 10 and so does Distracting Blow, which is convenient. Keep attacking and keep Health up with Lion's Comfort. Eventually he'll run out of Energy. If he puts up Shield of Judgment, switch to Healing Signet, or just stop attacking; only attack to interrupt Blessed Signet.
 * 2) Argo, Kisai, Vekk, Orion, Headmaster Vhang: Eventually they run out of Energy. Meanwhile, attack, use Healing Signet, Stances to help against strong spells like Shatterstone (or interrupt if you can). Headmaster Vhang is a challenge since his spells have a huge damage output, and getting hit during Healing Signet is suicidal. Argo is mostly hard because he takes so long to wear down; eventually he will do nothing but spam Stone Daggers, and if he starts to wand then he is truly drained.
 * 3) Cynn: Mostly it's a matter to interrupt Glyph of Restoration or the 15-energy spells; and catch her with Ripostes when possible. Some kiting is necessary.
 * 4) Lukas: It helps A LOT to bring a ranged weapon like a Spear. This lets you build up Adrenaline for Riposte. Use Deadly Riposte and wait till he's around half health, then attack and take damage from both Ripostes; he'll put up Auspicious so attack through that; at the same time, put up both of your Ripostes. He'll get to low health and cast Healing Signet; interrupt and you win.
 * 5) Warmaster Tydus: Interrupt Troll Unguent, stick to Lion's Comfort, use stances. Usually you can win. Distracting Shot will probably cause you to lose.
 * 6) Lo Sha: Just spam Healing Signet and let him run low on Energy. After that, interrupt Ether Feast and you'll beat him eventually.
 * 7) Norgu: Quite a long fight. Let him waste Energy, and spam Healing Signet. Attack if you're not under the effects of Empathy. As it is, healing through Visions of Regret gives a very small heal, so it will be a long fight. Eventually, when you think he has wasted most of his Energy, you just need to interrupt Empathy and Ether Feast, and you should win.
 * 8) Xandra: A bit challenging. You can heal over any damage she does, but the more you attack her, the more she will start to spam Vengeful Weapon and Soothing Memories. Vengeful is a 1/4 cast and virtually impossible to interrupt without anticipation; it also does 60 lifesteal so you'll have to also constantly spam Lion's Comfort. You need to interrupt Soothing Memories a few times all the while. The good news is that she will never be able to kill you, as long as you have Healing Signet available.
 * 9) Razah: Interrupt Wanderlust, spam Healing Signet and wait for the Spirit of Shadowsong to die; attack Razah in the meantime to see if you can't score a few hits. This is a long fight.
 * 10) Gwen: Interrupt Signet of Midnight repeatedly. Even if you miss, she can never kill you, as her damage skills are negligible for a non-caster.
 * Eve: Really annoying fight, possibly even the longest period. Stand around for a minute or two and spam Healing Signet; don't attack if you are under the effects of Spiteful Spirit, Price of Failure, or Insidious Parasite. Eventually she will (apparently) run out of Energy. At this point she will mostly be wanding, casting SS, and maintaining Parasitic Bond. At this point, after SS wears off, start to attack. Here is the hard part: you must interrupt EVERY cast of Insidious Parasite until she dies, or you will have to start over. And in the meantime, you need to make sure you watch your health bar and use Lion's Comfort as necessary. If she casts Price of Failure, SS, or Reckless Haste, that usually also means you need to start over; you can hit through SS if you spam Healing Signet (sort of) but otherwise it's no good. If she gets off even one Insidious Parasite, you have no choice but to stop attacking, since she'll be healed fully. Even if you interrupt all of them, it's a long battle, since with Parasitic Bond and Ether Feast she has strong healing. If you pull Eve as your first foe, it may be faster just to /resign and try again.
 * 1) Magni Himself: Never put up both Ripostes at the same time, since blocking two attacks is better than one; it helps greatly if you have one available for Devastating Hammer and/or Crushing Blow. Any time both Ripostes are charging, put up a Stance. When Lion's Comfort is charged, use it, and then Riposte immediately afterwards (it'll charge thanks to the adrenal boost). When Bonetti's Defense is charged, even if you are already in a stance, switch to that; you'll need the Energy. If you get really unlucky, Magni can spike you down or hit through Block too much, but usually you can win. If you have really good reflexes, interrupt Devastating Hammer.

Everyone else is pretty easy, except maybe Palawa Joko; if you're unlucky, the minions will interrupt Healing Signet and Lion's Comfort, and you will die. (T/C) 06:06, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The trick to beating Lukas is to refrain from attacking. It will hurt you more than it hurts him.  Just stand there blocking and using healing signet, and kill him with deadly riposte.  You might have to attack a bit to finish him off once he gets low, but you should be essentially full life when this happens, and able to withstand some of his damage reflection stuff just fine.


 * Also, you can't get Eve as your first foe. If you draw her as an opponent, it will be in round 4.


 * I'll concede that beating the tournament with my warrior build can be a little tricky. But if you've got a better strictly warrior build, I'd like to see it.  Warriors don't match up terribly well here, kind of like how monks don't match up that well against the doppelganger, or paragons don't match up that well against the rabid bear.  Quizzical 06:56, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * With Lukas, if you only use Deadly Riposte, he will never die since it doesn't recharge fast enough...if you build up enough adrenaline from being hit, and you time both Ripostes exactly right, you can actually win without ever attacking. But that's really slow, hence why some ranged weapon helps (at least to get him down).
 * Hmm. Didn't know that about Eve; I never keep track of what round I fight opponents in. Well I guess it's unavoidable then. :\
 * I really like to use Auspicious Parry instead of Disciplined Stance, since it lets me charge Riposte and Bonetti's Defense faster. Disciplined Stance also lasts 2 seconds less and ends on Lion's Comfort; Defensive Stance is good because it lasts longer, you use it vs. Argo for example...I dunno. That's the only real change I make to the build, and it seems to be roughly as good. Having two interrupts would be incredibly useful also, but Skull Crack is iffy and the bar is pretty tight already... I guess it really comes down to if you want to run a riskier build versus Magni, at the advantage of being able to beat the tough opponents more easily.
 * Once you learn to use this build, I find that it is actually quite nice, though it's definitely not for people who aren't up for a challenge and test of their skills.
 * Oh...Monks own the Doppleganger, though you need a skill that you shouldn't have by that point in the campaign - Shield of Judgment. With that and Holy Wrath plus Retribution, you win very quickly. Works in Hard Mode too.
 * Paras usually have to gimp the bear using secondary profession...it's apparently possible to kill with degen alone, and Para could easily maintain Burning and maybe Bleeding, but... [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:59, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I've tried your monk approach on doppelganger in hard mode, and it didn't work. What I finally found that did work was to drop holy wrath, and instead use restful breeze and scourge enchantment.  The latter pretty much negates the doppelganger's healing from restful breeze, as it isn't smart enough to stop attacking to heal.  But it took me quite a while to come up with that.  Quizzical 16:35, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I was running 16 Smite, which theoretically should have hurt me because of the sup rune. Dunno how much difference it makes. I am not sure why you did not win. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 06:52, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see now. I also have a Major Vigor rune (no Fort mods/survivor insignia though), and I always win with exactly 17 Health left. Well...You can also take Dual Shot and Triple Shot, and then you win with a slightly higher health. But you are correct, as long as you take even one minor heal you will be okay. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:11, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, after further testing (regardless of equipment or attributes) it really depends on how many critical hits he gets, so it's not viable after all. Triple Shot on a Monk is unrealistic anyway, though I think that would guarantee the win. >.> [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:56, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Elementalist build
This works better, and is still a single class build with no PvE skills:

14/13/4 Air, Estorage, Water

Blinding Flash is just as maintainable as Blinding Surge. Weapons foes are completely shut down, and you can out-damage all caster foes (just don't stand in their AoE spells of course). The only two foes who are potential trouble are Norgu and Gwen. For Norgu, you need to sit and wait for Backfire and Visions of Regret to wear off, and then you have a window of opportunity...for Gwen, she will perfect-counter you with Interrupts and Shatter, but after she uses her skills you can still pummel her and win.

And, Icy Prism is there to deal with Mhenlo. Use it to interrupt Blessed Signet. Eventually he will run out of Energy. You can also use it against various foes' Healing Signet, though I much prefer to smack them with Lightning Orb for 150+ damage. It can even be used against Bison's Purge Signet, though that is rather useless, as you can reapply Blind in 5 seconds max.

Shock Arrow isn't strictly necessary, but it helps just in case an interrupt slips through Blind and you lose 25 from Lightning Hammer, or Koss interrupts you with Shock, etc. (T/C) 10:45, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I used Gaze of Content over Icy Prism, myself. It was rather effective. The rest of my build was exactly the same. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  10:50, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

That's the only reason I have/had trouble with the builds on this page, is because I'm not using skills from secondary, PvE only stuff, etc. That being said, the builds are mostly ideal, at least against Bison, and unless you go Ursan I'm not sure any other way a Warrior could win. Etc etc (T/C) 10:57, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * A Warrior? Loltypo I hope. Anyways, I get it now. You might be able to complete the Tourny with some Water spam build. Glowing Ice has an easy req and with the shatload of snares... Well, Magni shouldn't be able to hit you. Shatstone -> Ice Spikes -> Glowing Ice -> Rust is a great chain for big domoge and some E-manag. It even slows down any sigs, making them food for Icy Prism :) --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  11:03, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

You can't guarantee a victory when the target only has Blurred Vision on them (ranged attackers), and Air deals superior damage anyway. Rust would work well against Mhenlo and Bison but otherwise it's useless. Air lets you kill people while just standing there; Water would need to do kiting. Water may not kill fast enough or deal enough sustained damage to overcome some foes. (T/C) 11:11, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Water deals a great load of damage tbh. Even snares deal damage. It's just an idea for people who don't have the Air skills but <3 Water (like me! Then again, I <3 Unsteady and Invoke too, so maybe I don't count ;) ). I'll give it a try once my internet speed is back to at least regular. Slow as now. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]--  (s)talkpage  11:15, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The Water build would work better with Water Trident to repeatedly KD Magni and other melee range foes. Probably there is an Earth build that works also. But I think Air is the most reliable across all opponents because of maintainable Blind. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 11:27, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I'd be strongly skeptical that that build would be especially reliable against M. Bison. It might be able to beat him sometimes, or even most of the time.  But if he hits you a few times in a short period of time, whether through blindness or immediately after purging it, you're dead.  Icy Prism will take as long to cast as Bison's purge signet, so to interrupt it, you have to start casting before he does--and that means it's unreliable.


 * The point of kinetic armor is that with +56 armor, you can get nailed by Bison now and then in spite of blind, and he'll neither be able to spike you dead nor outdamage your aura of restoration healing over a long period of time. I expect that it would help with fighting some casters, too, though it might be unnecessary.  Since you're casting at least once every eight seconds, you can maintain it indefinitely, except against opponents that strip enchantments--which Bison most notably does not.  Quizzical 16:48, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * You can survive 2 hits, and if you get struck 4 times in a row you're destined to die anyways. AoR+L Hammer = lolheal. You don't need to rupt his Purge Sig cause BFlash is so spammable, really. It's just more convenient. Don't be sceptical if you haven't tried it please. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  17:44, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * If you can survive 2 hits without any damage reduction skills, then >62% damage reduction from kinetic armor would be guaranteed to let you survive at least 5 hits. Quizzical 17:55, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * If you get hit 5 times in a row I'd file a support ticket saying blind is bugged. --Macros 17:58, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * He hits for 150-300, and any sane person has 570-630 hp, so, yes, you can survive 2 hits. AoR will heal you back up in no time. Kinetic is just redundant. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  17:59, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * If you're running 630 HP, then you're using exactly the sort of peculiar specialty gear that a player should not be assumed to have. My elementalist typically has 540 HP max, and that's with a superior vigor rune.  A lot of elementalists use a superior attribute rune, which will bring that number down quite a bit further still.  Yeah, the superior attribute runes are suicide, but a lot of players use them anyway.


 * And by your own numbers of M. Bison being able to crit for 300, yes, that's dying in two hits. If we assume that you keep him blinded 90% of the time, he'll hit you 19% of the time.  And the probability that he hits you twice consecutively, or twice in three swings, or three times in five swings, or something to that effect at some point in the battle is quite substantial.  With kinetic armor, it doesn't particularly matter if M. Bison gets a lucky string of hits; you win anyway.


 * I don't want to replace a build that reliably beats both M. Bison and nearly all of the earlier opponents with one that only works if Bison doesn't get a lucky string of hits. There might well be a good argument for replacing blinding surge by elemental attunement and blinding flash.  But I don't see a good argument for scrapping kinetic armor.  Quizzical 18:46, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * You keep him blind 100%, and there's such an idiotically small chance he'll kill you... Really, getting >560hp is not hard. Survivors are cheaper than Radiant, and same goes for Attunement/Vitae and Sup/Minor rune. How is that speciality gear? I'd say the other way around, really.
 * With the above mentioned build, you also win anyways, unless he manages to hit through that 10% chance to hit and score 2 crits. Fat chance. Oh, and twice in three swings; you'll survive. Note that you heal for a good amount when you cast a spell. If you get hit and need a quick heal, cast BFlash/AoR, which is the highest cost (thus heal) for the smallest timespan.
 * That "good argument" to remove it is as good as it is to keep it. As I stated above; good luck dying if he has a 10% chance to hit, and on that a small chance to actually hurt you a lot. If you dont have 540hp, it's your fault you die faster. You spent more money on less profit. Anything Energy and/or damage related costs you more money and more health.
 * tl;dr version: Don't theorycraft if you can't. Kinetic Armor is redundant. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  20:50, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok Quizzical. My argument is this: a good player will be able to keep Magni Blind 100% of the time. Magni uses Purge Signet on recharge, so you can time Bflash pretty easily. Without Kinetic Armor, you should be able to survive 2 hits. Magni has a 1% chance to hit twice in a row. With Kinetic Armor, you can survive up to 5 hits. Magni has a .1% chance to hit 3 times in a row, a .01% chance to hit 4 times, and a .001% chance to hit 5. Bringing a skill to counter such low odds just seems... silly. --Macros 21:39, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

(Reset indent) :I can understand your skepticism, since with Maths(TM) it seems there is a risk. But there isn't. I've been through the tourney countless times with this and I can vouch that it will beat every single opponent. There is not a single foe you cannot beat reliably with just Blinding Flash. Bison could hit you at most two times before you get Blind back on, and even with no Vigor or Fortitude or even Heart of the Norn (or whatever the title effect is called), you won't die. The only way you would die is a Devhammer -> Crushing Blow, but the chances of that are so small that it may as well be impossible. It takes like two minutes for Lukas to charge my 4 Adrenaline Riposte just by hitting me; Devhammer is 7. If Bison hasn't died by the time he can use devhammer then you must be running 9 Air or something crappy like that. As to Icy Prism, if you have a way for your build to beat Mhenlo without ridiculous expectations of interrupting Healing Breeze with Gale, then I want to know how. You'd most likely end up exhausting yourself if you go for his Blessed Signet, too, since you need to interrupt that more times. And also, you never "need" to interrupt Bison's Purge signet, etc. (T/C) 23:28, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Good luck keeping M. Bison blinded 100% of the time. He does have purge signet, you know.  And yes, it's on a timer.  A 20 second timer.  And you can happen to time to do something exactly 20 seconds from now, as opposed to 19 or 21, without waiting for the event to happen and react to it?  If so, you've got a much better internal clock than I do.
 * What happens if Bison uses purge signet immediately after you use blinding flash? You have to wait 4 seconds for the recharge, plus a 3/4 second cast time, before you can blind him again.  That's plenty of time for Bison to nail you twice.  Now yes, that does take pretty bad luck.
 * Let's suppose that you've got perfect reflexes, so that you can time it such that you start casting blinding flash 1/4 second after M. Bison starts casting purge signet if blinding flash isn't already on cooldown, and keep him blinded right through it. Let's suppose that your basic strategy is to use blinding flash every x seconds when Bison is already blinded, and that the distribution of his using purge signet is uniform on this interval.  The expected amount of time that Bison can see before you can reblind him due to skill recharge is 11.28125/x seconds.  This is minimized if x = 8.  In other words, if you have perfect reflexes and never happen to be in the process of casting some other skill when he purges blindness, and Bison uses purge signet every 21 seconds (as often as the cooldown will allow), you keep him blinded on average a little under 93% of the time.  And since you don't have perfect reflexes and sometimes will be casting something else when he uses purge signet, you keep him blinded less than that.
 * But purge signet isn't the only way that Bison can come unblinded. He does have three knockdown skills, you know.  And if he happens to knock you down while you're casting blinding flash, that interrutps it, and he gets 3 hits on you (counting the first knockdown) before you can recharge blinding flash.  And then you die.  A small probability event?  Perhaps, but M. Bison killed me twice on my necromancer by interrupting Grenth's Balance (with its 1/4 second cast) that way.
 * But let's suppose for the sake of argument that you can keep M. Bison blinded 100% of the time, even though we know it's not true. Does M. Bison swing twice and then just stand there doing nothing for the rest of the battle?  No, he keeps attacking.  And if you die in two consecutive hits, then the probability that you die is not the probability that two particular swings both hit.  Rather, it is the probability that some two consective swings hit.  If those happen to be the 16th and 17th swings, it doesn't matter that you survived the first 15.  You still lost.  If Bison gets 30 swings before he dies, and the probability that any particular swing will hit you 10%, independent of all other swings, the probability that he lands two consecutive swings is about 23.5%.  (The expected number of times that Bison would land two consecutive swings is .29, but that would double count situations where he'd kill you twice.)
 * Furthermore, a single miss doesn't instantly get you to full life. If Bison goes hit, miss, hit, miss, miss, hit, then you're probably not going to get 300 HP of healing from aura of restoration between the first and third hits.  And then you're likely going to die.  Even if Bison is always blinded, the probability of 3 hits out of some six consecutive swings is a lot higher than the probability of two consecutive hits.
 * So even under assumptions very favorable to you, the probability that you die if you lack any damage mitigation skills is substantial. If you bring kinetic armor, the probability that you die in the same manner is infinitessimal.  If the latter is easy to get, then there's no reason to settle for the former.  Quizzical 00:01, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Thus any hits through Blind are taken care of. The only way you will die is Devhammer and Blind is off. If Devhammer hits Blind, then you are incredibly unlucky. For ANY build that relies on Blind or Block, a lucky Devhammer hit is always a possibility.
 * What is this problem with timing Blinding Flash and Purge Signet? Don't bother keeping track of 20 second timer. Just spam Blinding Flash as soon as it recharges.
 * If you are still skeptical, then you can replace Shock Arrow with Enervating Charge and then he can't beat you. Period. Even if he hits with Devhammer, Crushing, Irresistible.
 * I can go out and run this build 100 more times and prove how reliable it is, despite your fancy maths which I don't understand. Would that convince you? [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 00:12, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

If Magni interrupts your Bflash... kite. --Macros 00:20, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Mhenlo casts Mending. I retract my comments. And screw it, I'm using Gaze of Contempt/Strip Enchantments/Rip Enchantment/whatever enchant removal you can get in your native campaign. (T/C) 00:32, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

HOWEVER, I would like to note that I just survived Devhammer -> Crushing Blow -> Counter Blow -> Irresistible Blow. I was lazy and didn't renew Blind, but Magni had Weakness from Enervating Charge. So that would work just fine. Spam Blind, use Enervating after Purge, etc. (T/C) 00:53, 12 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The build above doesn't have enervating charge in it. And yes, if M. Bison is weakened when he isn't blinded, that's additional damage mitigation.  That kind of fills the same role as kinetic armor, except that Bison can't remove the latter.  Regarless, it's easy enough to have it available in case blinding flash is on recharge for a few seconds when you need it.


 * The other big weakness does seem to be against Mhenlo. Interrupting healing breeze twice consecutively with gale is something that can be done eventually, but takes a fair bit of luck.  Unless, of course, Mhenlo uses mending, in which case, you'll need either degen or enchantment removal to kill him.


 * So the solution is to bring mark of rodgort with 3 points in fire. That with a fire weapon will kill Mhenlo in 3 seconds if he doesn't have any regen skills up.  It may or may not also be useful against some of the casters who have things like spiteful spirit or backfire.  Quizzical 02:27, 12 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I replaced Shock Arrow with Enervating Charge since you'll never need the energy. Right now I am testing to see if I can get away with just Blinding Flash and good timing. At most, Bison will get to use Purge signet thrice: once at the very beginning of the battle, then 20 seconds later, and then one more time if you are slow. At 13 Air Magic he should be dead in ~40 seconds. Vipermagi used Glyph of Elemental Power in his Air build, which may speed it up sufficiently that he would die before ever getting that third Purge off.
 * Mark of Rodgort and 3 Fire...well, that might work, if he doesn't already have Mending up. Pairing it with Gust would give basically a guaranteed kill in that case...2 second knockdown and Healing Breeze casts in 3/4 (I think), and he doesn't need to get to 0 health. Let me try it out. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 02:34, 12 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Wand for a few hits, Mark of Rodgort, attack once and as soon as the projectile leaves your weapon, Gust. This will take out Mhenlo as long as Healing Breeze isn't up, and it should work against Mending too. I also found Gale useful against Troll Unguent and such.
 * Against Bison, you use Blinding Flash repeatedly. If he Purges it as soon as it is applied, knock him down with Gust. This gives just enough time for Blinding Flash to recharge, such that he'll only hit you once if you have slow reflexes. If that was Devhammer then you're screwed though, as you no longer have Enervating... [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 04:50, 12 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh, and Thunderclap works too. But then you have energy problems on Bison trying to spam Blinding Flash. In that case, going for Kinetic Armor is best...and you'd need Glyph of Lesser Energy plus Shock Arrow. Hrm. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:20, 12 October 2008 (UTC)


 * ...K. ~15 wins. I faced every single opponent in the tourney, except for the elusive Palawa Joko. I only lost once because I wasn't paying attention. I only had to emergency-use Gust once or twice...all other times, Blinding Flash was sufficient, and even if he was hitting through Daze a lot it didn't kill me. One time he even got off a Devhammer plus Crushing Blow, but I won anyway.
 * So I don't know how many times you need me to test it more, but that's pretty good winning chance for me. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 06:51, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Monk build
I find the following to be better:

...running 12-12-11(smite/prot/divine), though you can switch those around a bit if you need to.

I've never had Energy problems against Bison or any other (beatable) foes, and so Defender's Zeal was useless for me. Signet of Judgment allows for faster kills and an interrupt of sorts.

Palawa Joko seems very hard to beat, since Order of the Lich goes right through Protective Spirit, and his two minions both have IAS and interrupts. Norgu is also highly irritating as you have to deal with either Backfire or Visions of Regret, "pick your poison". Tydus is also a challenge since he tends to interrupt your damaging skills and Castigation Signet... against him, I concur that Retribution is a very good choice.

With either build, Danika is impossible because you can't deal enough damage quick enough to kill anything through her healing - and you cannot outlast her because the pet Wallows use Lifestealing, which goes through Protection Prayers. And Mhenlo of course you can never defeat - not fast enough damage packets, and SoJ doesn't recharge fast enough to use as an interrupt. Going Mo/N and replacing RoD with Gaze of Contempt fixes this (and also makes some other foes easier), but it breaks the single-class rule.

Alesia is very difficult because she will out-heal you through Healing Breeze, and unlike other regen-using foes such as Melonni she takes a long time to run out of energy. Gash for Deep Wound also reduces your healing.

Opponents not attempted: Ghostly Hero, but he is probably beatable. Interrupts like Tydus, though. (T/C) 11:05, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Most likely the reason why I ran shorter on energy than you did was that I was maintaining retribution. That makes M. Bison go somewhat faster, though I expect your build would be able to reliably beat him, too, with only the same (rare) exception as mine:  getting knocked down to interrupt protective spirit, and then dying before it gets recast.


 * In retrospect, retribution probably helps more against the foes that are beatable without it and less against the ones that are harder, so it may well be good to scrap it. M. Bison will probably take longer, but it doesn't matter how long the battle would have taken if you don't get there.


 * My own monk build wasn't really that good of one. It could pretty reliably beat M. Bison, but getting there was another matter.  It sounds like you've put your build through the proper testing.  Go ahead and replace my build with yours on the article page if you like.  (Not like a bureaucrat needs to ask permission on the wiki, but I've long regarded this page as mine and revert changes I don't like.)


 * Incidentally, apart from warrior and monk, the other class where I had trouble coming up with a good build is assassin. I tried all sorts of ways to come up with a blocking-based build that would work, and couldn't get one.  Finally I went with blinding as the way to do it.  But the build I give is kind of finicky, as you have to time the blinds right to keep M. Bison essentially always blinded even though he'll use purge signet at times.


 * Well, I guess I had trouble coming up with a good necromancer build, too. Finally I gave up on the no-pve only skills requirement and stuck necrosis in there.Quizzical 17:28, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Necro shouldn't be too hard. PoF/Reckless/GB, some lifesteal? Might need some Weakness, but that's easy (Enfeeble, Withering Aura...) --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  17:47, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The problem for necromancers was killing the earlier opponents who were inclined to just stand there self-healing a lot. Quizzical 17:56, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Mostly the casters are heck, but with GB you could get low (<100), GB, lifesteal a bit off and /zrank. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  18:01, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * You're welcome. :p
 * For Assassin, you could use Flashing Blades + Critical Defenses for a ridiculous block chance, and because of the buff to Flashing Blades it will even do damage to Bison for you. All the other skills you'd need would be Jagged Strike and Malicious Strike, and you should win easily. But as to getting there...well, that is still a problem, as now you lack Dazed for the casters.
 * Incidentally, I almost won against Bison with this (he was at <25% and Poisoned, which is about the point he "dies"):


 * I know it uses PvE only skills, but the fact that I could nearly win using just one 75% block means you should theoretically be able to win with two 75% block and a self-heal. I interrupted Devhammer maybe once with KD, but otherwise it was blocked. This build has tons of problems against many other foes, too...but the point is that it could maybe beat Bison with luck. :>
 * For the Necromancer, it actually is very lol against Magni; as long as you can time Grenth's Balance correctly, you'll win easily. Of course, Devhammer is a problem as usual, since if that's the hit that brings you to <100 then you die... Against other foes, it's true that without Necrosis you can't deal enough damage to foes such as, say, Eve or Devona. Some builds get around this by using Spoil Victor which also works wonders against Bison. But I can't vouch for them since I haven't capped SV yet. >.> [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 23:38, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Solid +armor from a pve only skill makes M. Bison a lot easier. I guess critical agility is no more illegitimate than necrosis, but the assassin build listed already works.  It's just tricky to use right.
 * Grenth's Balance is used mainly as a self-heal against M. Bison. He deals considerable damage even while weakened, and it's necessary to be able to refill your life periodically.  Spoil Victor doesn't offer that, and falls into the trap of trying to trade hits, which will probably get you killed.  Quizzical 02:39, 12 October 2008 (UTC)