Talk:Game updates/20060713

Quivering Blade
Hurray! (No, seriously.) &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 00:07, 14 July 2006 (CDT) )
 * Too right ^^ my favourite change &mdash; Skuld  09:53, 14 July 2006 (CDT)

IW...
need I say anymore? --Jamie  02:21, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * It's nice to be able to maintain it, but that's not a major change. not enough for the sup vig I failed to salvage when making my new warrior armor. :[ Foo 02:28, 14 July 2006 (CDT)

Are you psyched? I'm psyched. My Mesmer-pirate's even more psyched. Such psyching. --Black Ark 06:18, 14 July 2006 (CDT)

Wow I <3 the new storage upgrades :D

As if IW wasn't already powerful enough. O_o &mdash; Rapta   (talk|contribs) 09:29, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Powerful, where may I ask &mdash; Skuld  09:54, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Constant armour-ignoring damage, easily out-damaging regular warriors or assassins blow-by-blow (well, against high-armour enemies, anyway). You can crank it up to 42 damage per second by using Flurry as well. And now you can keep it up indefinitely by using even imperfect "of enchanting"-mods, woo-hoo! I guess you'd have to try it first to know what's so good about it. --Black Ark 10:11, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * My point was it's an enchantment.. only good for RA and certain (few) PvE places.. you won't have it on for 2 secs anywhere else &mdash; Skuld  10:20, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * So what you're saying is, no enchantment in the game is good, because it stands the risk of being removed. That's an awfully narrow-minded view you've got there. --Black Ark 10:24, 14 July 2006 (CDT)


 * When the enchantment is tied to the dmg you do then i think that enchantment is pretty critical the effectiveness of a build, nto all enchantments are as crutial as IW. --Jamie [[Image:Jamie.jpg|24px|(Talk Page)]] 10:33, 14 July 2006 (CDT)


 * this kept conflicting and timing out anbd jamie said it all, anyway:
 * "So what you're saying is, no enchantment in the game is good" I said no such thing. This is a 35 sec recharge thing and a potent enchantment - easily removed and high on the priority list. The only other things that come really close are ele attunements &mdash; Skuld  10:36, 14 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Getting my share of errors on this side, too. Let me just keep it short by saying that the Mesmer-class has its fair share of coverups and, of course interrupts to tackle disenchants. It's not fool-proof, but then, what is? --Black Ark 12:03, 14 July 2006 (CDT)

Existing item changes
Can't believe they nerfed pre-existing items... that is really lame. I spent a huge amount of cash on my Rockmolder's back in the day and now I'm screwed. Not only did they nerf my rockmolders but they also nerfed my Nolani wand... what next? My healing focus with health -50 to a blood focus? My +55 health Hod Axe? My 15% FFS? :'( When will the nerf bat stop?!? - Stexe
 * It will likely stop when all items no longer acquirable are not unbalancing compared to current/acquirable items. This isn't the first time they've done it.  I can't think of a single argument against this that doesn't fly in the face of the idea of an even, skill-based playing ground for PvP.  --68.142.14.33 03:40, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * It's simply a shame! They are destroying one ledgend after the other. HoD, Rockmolder, Sup. Absorption... those were items which were something special. Now it's all gone. Thanks Anet, with every update the game is getting more unattractive (in my case, maybe other ones too). Why do you play a virtual game where all is about heroism and glory when you just can't get it. Everything in GW is just about farming. Nothing that needs real skill is appreciated. All I can say is: I hate that and it might be the reason for me to stop playing (No threat but simple truth)  ---Kai Neah Nung 06:07, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * What in "HoD, Rockmolder, Sup. Absorption" "is about heroism and glory"? Where does "real skill" come into play in what you said? What are you talking about?--Ishmaeel 06:16, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * You gain treasures by achieving something (in GW unfortunally only by earning money)... Don't you understand the system??? My comment about real skill was mainly focused on those titles and money. Those titles are mass ware. They are nothing special. And if you should gain a level that is beyond the one of "normal" players you mainly gained it by farming (eg Treasure, Wisdom, Explorer...). For all those you don't need skill, you just need time and the willingness to spend hours for extremely lame farming. Concerning money you have the same thing, either you spend hours in a town (just exploiting noobs) or you're out on your favourite farm run. Gladiator and Hero is a welcome variation to this principle (although it is also spoiled). Hope this made some things clear to you. ---Kai Neah Nung 09:06, 14 July 2006 (CDT)


 * No offense to you Kai Neah Nung, but you seem to have come down to earth with a thud from these updates, those items you refer to have nothing to do with heroism, they have everything to do with having a bigger wallet than anyone else. Nothing more, nothing less... and as far as HoD sword goes they've made the energy upgrade available to all (which isn't my point but...) which is great because not everyone was there when the HoD sword was around, if you think it's heroic and glorious to be elite with an item was seldum available to other people... then we have different ideas of what those words mean.
 * When all is said and done, I didn't mean for that to turn into a rant a big wall of text, but what i said was true, there is no heroism or glory in greed. --Jamie [[Image:Jamie.jpg|24px|(Talk Page)]] 06:22, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * You are absolutely right that everything in GW is controlled by money. In my mind one of the biggest mistakes of the game! Why isn't there a challange that is so hard so that only the best players manage to get through it and when you are through you gain an item that is cutomized for that character so that there is no use in selling it? A chance to experiece a real adventure whith great but unsellable reward. Not just a stupid farming ground like UW2. So I was not directly referring to those mentioned items (sorry for the missunderstanding) but more ro some epic equipment you can personally earn for achieving things. Those items were just examples how such an epic thing could look like. ---Kai Neah Nung 09:06, 14 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I can, to an extent, imagine your frustration, but think of it this way. All of the old "outdated" uniques (Victo's Axe, anyone?) were upgraded recently to be as powerful as their recent incarnations - so why shouldn't old, possibly bugged items (Rockmoulder, most definitely; there are no other 20% all-recharge items in the game) be brought down to a current level? Especially because these things don't drop any longer, it gives people with enough money to afford one an unbalanced advantage over newer players who "missed out". As for the HoD-weapons, there are plenty of other weapons in the game that spawn with a +energy mod nowadays - I shouldn't have to point out the fact that you can have them crafted but I'm going to, anyway. Finally, the Rune of Superior Absorbption? Yeah, it was real sweet that only dedicated rune-farmers could get their hands on those, short of shelling out an arm and a leg at a rune-trader. Real sweet indeed. Next time you decide to curse your miserable fate, maybe you should stop for a second and think of how these terrible injustices to your person makes the game more accessible to newer players. --Black Ark 06:31, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Ok, I'm asking you two questions: Why are you playing GW? To be part of the mass? Then have fun!---Kai Neah Nung 09:06, 14 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Many thanks, my beautiful and unique snowflake. Likewise, I wish you a great deal of fun trying to rough it on your own out there in this big, lonesome world. --Black Ark 09:09, 14 July 2006 (CDT)


 * GW is a game of balance, the outstanding feature of GW is that no one is more powerful than anyone else, nothing is "broken" as there is always a counter. that's why there is a lvl20 cap and why we have regular skill balances and weapon/item modifications to keep the game in check. --Jamie [[Image:Jamie.jpg|24px|(Talk Page)]] 09:12, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * If that's a feature for PvE I should quit playing... It was nice with you before all those greens when the world was something special. Fairnes and qualitly ftw. Bye everyone, have fun in GW ---Kai Neah Nung 09:19, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * All I can say to that is... go play WoW.


 * Don't you just love the deep and meaningful conversations we have here on GuildWiki? &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 09:32, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * * Whacks Rapta on head with caveman club* --Jamie [[Image:Jamie.jpg|24px|(Talk Page)]] 09:36, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Don't worry Rapta, that caveman club will be nerfed in the next update. I, myself, like the updates, though my prenerf rockmolders in storage are now regulars, guess I can trash one and make room. It's been said before and it seems it will always be said, not everyone is going to like what ANet does. -Gares 10:07, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I'll just be waiting here for them to nerf Barrage. :P &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 19:05, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * So you're thinking of quitting GW because they rebalanced old items? Huh? Didn't you notice from day 1 that the primary design principle was "max gear is cheap, then you pay a buttload to make it look cooler"? That being the basis of the 1.5k/15k armor system, dyes, collectors, and pretty much everything else? Your epiphany is a bit like "Wow, turns out GW is an online game!"
 * The loot you describe does exist, to some extent. Loot from "elite missions" and the you-just-beat-Factions green items. If you want something untradable... uh, armor? FoW armor? Bear in mind that you can only craft it if you both scrounge together a ton of components and then go down there and do a bunch of FoW quests in one go. And, yes, those are all just skins. That's the point: everyone has a level playing field to let your actual skill show through, but the dedicated players (as long as they have any fantasy fashion sense) get to look cooler doing it.
 * What the hell was special about a pre-nerf Rockmolder or an HoD sword, other than scarcity? These weren't items that were hard to get when they were legitimately available, and getting one afterward is a sign that you had a lot of cash to blow on something rather than a measure of any kind of achievement. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 10:43, 14 July 2006 (CDT) )
 * Thanks for the summary of all that was said, 130.58, I do love a good game balance though everyone scaremongers like it's the wall street crash lol... then a day later it's all back to normal. --Jamie [[Image:Jamie.jpg|24px|(Talk Page)]] 10:49, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Summary? Hey! My thesis, which is "the point of this game is that everyone has the same gear but you can pay up the wazoo just to immpress people while standing around in town", is completely novel as far this discussion is concerned. =) &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 11:42, 14 July 2006 (CDT) )


 * What other items have they nerfed after the fact they came out? They have never changed already existing items for the worse before to my knowledge. Not counting items that were made through hacks such as a 40% Enchanting duration weapon or +15% Always damage with no negative? - Stexe
 * The 40% enchanting grip was not a hack. You got the axe from a quest, applied an enchanting grip like normal, and then applied another grip like normal.  But the fact that it's a bug is actually irrelevant.  Even if it wasn't a bug, such an item would have been removed from the game anyway.  As I pointed out and you ignored, balance is the issue.  The rockmolder was similarly unbalanced.  I'd say the 15% FFS is even more so.  The fact that you can't get these anymore only compounds the issue.  --68.142.14.33 17:02, 14 July 2006 (CDT)

Just to summarize and make issues clear: This game is about one thing: Skill. To make skill the core differentiator in PvP, ANet vowed from day one to level the playing field. Getting to level 20 (or simply creating a level 20 PvP char) is easy, all items have max stats that are easily available, and all armor too. So, when I first found out that HoD swords were in the game after they were discontinued, I was pretty surprised. And then later on, with broken rockmolder and other such gear, I was more and more surprised. They were fermenting the idea that when an item is bugged, people better stock up on it cause aNet can't fix it. Then came the 40% enchant Axe... And they fixed that retroactively. I knew then that they are gonna go back and fix any item in your most private stash they deem unhealthy for the game's balance. The notion that bugged items are "above" fixing that was so common among players created these ridiculous prices for those items. 500k for an HoD sword? There was a whole market thriving on the idea that they will never be fixed. I am glad they fixed it, and I hope it sends a message to all the players out there. Don't pay ridiculous prices for bugged items. --Karlos 20:54, 15 July 2006 (CDT)

Ascalon armor
thats a blow &mdash; Skuld  06:20, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * adapt or die skuldie --Jamie [[Image:Jamie.jpg|24px|(Talk Page)]] 06:24, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Might get kurzick gladiator armour, I don't like 15k glads full set and theres no point keeping the ascalon boots &mdash; Skuld  06:26, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * To maintain the refined look of a classic gentleman. --68.142.14.33 06:28, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * While it is going to change the armor usage of all warriors, it wasn't exactly unexpected. And now it is like it's supposed to be. Doesn't matter too much though since they also made all absorbtions only apply to physical damage. &mdash; Galil  06:50, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Time to go through the piles of Warrior builds that suggest using a piece of that armor... &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 09:20, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Indeed. Now that I've gone all Canthan, my Ascalon boots are the last thing I have to remind me of my roots.
 * In all seriousness, is there ever a time when -2 reduction is better than +10 armor? &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 09:22, 14 July 2006 (CDT) )
 * 10/8 no? 12.5% hit &mdash; Skuld  09:23, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * heh. I like my armor with +10 AL over your's ST47 10:16, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Almost always. I'd be happy to explain why, later, when I'll have more time. Foo 11:31, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Often, but not almost always. Let's see... This example is how it was before this patch. A warrior gets hit with Lightning Orb from an Elementalist with 16 Air Magic. He's wearing Gladiator's Armor (80 AL), except for the boots which are Knight's Armor (-2 reduction since as stated, this is pre-patch). Now, with 80 AL, and 25% armor penetration, which Lightning Orb has, he would take 106 damage, but the boots reduced 2, so 104 damage is taken. Then he switches to all Platemail Armor (90 AL), and no Knight's boots. Suddenly he would take 93 damage. -2 better than +10 AL? Not in this case no. But if you take low damage (average damage less than 18 with 0% armor penetration), then yeah, -2 is better. Of course, then there's always skills ignoring armor (Obsidian Flame, SS, Desecrate Enchantments, etc), and against these, -2 is always better of course. I still say it depends though, and from my point of view, it's just a matter of preference. &mdash; Galil  16:42, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Yeah, you are right, and you also figured the same number as me. (see at the bottem of the page). well, when I said Almost always, I guess I ment Almost always for me, as I mostly do solo fow with my warrior. and still, while I'm keeping only one set of armor, I'd rather have the -3ar then +armor conditional, or +armor vs elemental. Foo 17:57, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * kinda moot now, isn't it, boys? time to upgrade my boots to dreadnaughts.  --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 10:57, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Well since they crash the price of absorb rune some update ago, it wouldnt be that bad ;). Still good luck on that.-- ├ A  ratak  ┤  11:13, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * No, it was moot before. There is actually a point to the question now. Before, damage reduction didn't stack with itself, so you'd get one set of boots or gloves and a bunch of good +armor armor. Best of both worlds, because it was like having damage reduction on top of your Dreadnaught's or Sentinel's or Legionairre's armor. Now you have to choose either DR or extra +armor, so a Knight's chest peice, for example, might be a viable choice, since it's no longer just giving you a bonus you already get from some boots. What I'm asking is: "With the new changes, where each peice of armor you have now has to stand on its own, which is better? Is there sometimes a reason to actually choose 3 (they upped it to 3 in the patch) points of damage reduction over an effective +10 or +20 AL?" Or, in other words, "What are the cases when just getting rid of 3 extra damage is better than having that damage reduced by 10 extra armor? 20 extra armor?" &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 11:40, 14 July 2006 (CDT) )
 * since armor reduces damage in a inverse proprotion, no amount of armor can ever reduce incomming damage to -0 without knights or a rune. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 12:42, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Good thing to note. Now, assuming a rune and, if you wish, a -2/100% or -5/20% shield, what situations would you rather than an extra -3 damage reduction in and what situations would you rather have an extra +10 AL in? I feel like there are bound to be a few, but I can't figure out the specifics. Does damage reduction reduce damage from attack skills as well as raw attack damage? &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 12:47, 14 July 2006 (CDT) )
 * guess i'm getting a guildie and a candy cane sword, and going scrimage to test that. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 12:49, 14 July 2006 (CDT)

Some numbers on warrior armor vs physical damage
For physical damage:


 * 1) Let X be the damage for which +10 armor is equivalent to -3 AR. then;
 * 2) X - 3 = X * (2^-(10/40)) (read the Damage Article to understand those numbers)
 * 3) 3 = X * (1 - 2^-(10/40))
 * 4) X = 3/(1 - 2^-(10/40))
 * 5) X = 18.8556405

So we can say that since AR is absulote and armor is reletive, -3 AR is better then +10 armor when the damage taken is less then 19, and vice versa. the same calculation for +20 armor will result in X2 = 10.2426407.

I don't play a wide verity or warrior builds, but as far as places in which you are hit for small numbers of physical damage, (As in the Fow Cave), not only is a full Knight's Armor a better choise right now then any other, but the 1 extra AR given now, makes it even better then any other combination prior to the update. (1ar/(1-(2^-(10/40)))=~6.28)

Foo 17:45, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * beer in mind that all of this becomes moot as damage changes to elemental or "other". in that case, Sentinel's or Dreadnought's is the clear choice. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 17:50, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I'll stick to reciving physical damage :p Foo 18:04, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Legionairre's! 110/90 without that icky-poo Strength requirement. =) &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 19:01, 14 July 2006 (CDT) )

Item Storage
This is upsetting. Why are only Factions players getting this upgrade? I thought these sort of additions were supposed to be accessible by all Guild Wars players. -- James Sumners 08:43, 15 July 2006 (CDT)
 * This is clearly a step driven by greed. there is no reason not to allow everyone to have it. Foo 09:56, 15 July 2006 (CDT)
 * To make you buy factions, I guess &mdash; Skuld  10:02, 15 July 2006 (CDT)
 * From a purely game story point of view you could go with that since the Xunlai are Canthan, this is something that they are doing for their native country. Realistcally, yeah, it is to get you to buy Factions.  Are you really surprised?  You have to buy Factions to get the Factions skills and the new classes too.  This isn't a "game balance" thing so they have no reason to make it available to all players.  --Rainith 13:29, 15 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I intend to buy the game when two things make it possible 1) I have the money to do so and 2) I have the time to actually play it. My issue is not with buying Factions. It is with the fact that they have repeatedly said upgrades such as this will be available to all players of Guild Wars no matter what chapters they have. This is just really disappointing. -- James Sumners 14:35, 15 July 2006 (CDT)
 * From context (specifically, the fact that the Xunlai Rep mentions upgrades and talks about continued research on these upgrades), I'd say either Cantha or the hitherto unnamed countries of ep 3&4 will see additional tabs on the storage-menu. Get your wallets ready, kids - you don't want to miss out on that dye-tab or those rune-slots. --Black Ark 17:29, 15 July 2006 (CDT)