Talk:Survivor

Survivor
Does that indeed mean you have to have 0 deaths as soon as you reach 140600 total, or can you also accumulate that much XP without dying later? --84-175 (talk) 18:49, 28 April 2006 (CDT)
 * Isn't 140600 xp what you need to get level 20? It would make sense to have to survive to level 20 without dying to get this title. --Gem [[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 08:26, 30 April 2006 (CDT)

If I were going for Survivor, I would probably try to do it with a Monk primary, and if I started to get in trouble ever, F12. I wonder if PvP deaths count? --Tjoneil 18:29, 30 April 2006 (CDT)
 * I would guess that any death that increases your /deaths count, counts. i.e. when your brand new Canthan character is killed during the explanation of resurrection shrines, that doesn't count.  --Rainith 19:15, 30 April 2006 (CDT)
 * It's 140k experience without dieing. You can do it when you're already at level 20. It's probably easiest from 1-20, though, as you get so much exp from quest rewards. LordKestrel 19:04, 30 April 2006 (CDT)
 * This will increase leaving during missions/PvP/whatever. Great job Anet! Didn't you want to make people leave LESS?! --Gem [[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 04:14, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
 * In short, does this mean it doesn't matter if your existing character has deaths or not, as long as you get that 140600 without dying during that period?
 * Thats what LordKestrel said. --Gem [[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 17:33, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
 * A guildie and me went to test it. it is known that the "survivor" counter apears at around 14k. we went to the UW as ss55, and after 15kxp from quests, plus around 4k from monsters, the counter did not apear. My interpertation for this will be that you must get the FIRST 140600xp without dying. Foo 17:40, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
 * What if quest rewards don't count? (Ok, that would be cruel and I probably am wrong)--Gem [[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 18:29, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Another guildie just got it by geting 140600xp, and, well, a major part of that, is obviously, quest xp. Foo 18:37, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
 * I am very sure this is: "Get to 140600xp without dieing", as opposed to "get 140600 without dieing". --Xeeron 11:36, 3 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I concur as well. I spent approx. eight hours going through the Summit Slaves series of quests and the Kaineng Center quests, accumlating well over 200,000 exp. points without dying and this title has never shown up.  I feel somewhat cheated as this title appears to be only open to newly created characters :-( At least I have gotten about 15 skill more points out of it.  --DaveBaggins 18:16, May 4 2006 (CST)


 * Looks like I was wrong about this. I just took a char who has died 51 times, got myself killed a 52nd time, and then earned 600k exp, and no title. LordKestrel 22:32, 5 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Well, that sucks. I'll clarify the article then, I think. --Tinarto 03:07, 9 May 2006 (CDT) Edit: Oh, nevermind, I didn't see Using the command /deaths must return a zero.

Does failing a mission (e.g. Togo dies, party dies and returns to outpost) increase your /deaths count? --Akaraxle 10:43, 15 May 2006 (CDT)
 * I tested the non-death failure case in the Northern Wall mission. Failing the mission due to time running out at the end, although seems to result in insta-death, the death count does not go up. I'd expect this to hold true for all other missions with failure conditions other than wipeout. But I also would not take that gamble, if I were reaching for the survival title.--Ishmaeel 08:00, 17 May 2006 (CDT)
 * The true test would be to creat a new character, "die" in this manner, and get 11kxp, and see if the title bar is still running. Foo 17:12, 17 May 2006 (CDT)
 * ...this brings up another question; when you get the first title, and then die, how does the title bar shown? Foo 17:12, 17 May 2006 (CDT)
 * That's what I wanna know too. Just made it to the first level. Wanna keep my title but staying alive always is a bit tedious... --Machlie 19:08, 20 May 2006 (CDT)
 * When you die after you earn Survivor, you keep the title but the bar that keeps track of your highest XP at the time of death (the title line track, in other words) is frozen with that exact number. You can continue to display it proudly.--Ishmaeel 07:18, 22 May 2006 (CDT)

Can anyone confirm that it's 587,500 and 1,337,500 and not ,600 on both of them? Adding 100 would make them divide into equal levels. 587,600 would divide into 26 levels after 20 and 1,337,600 would divide into 76 levels after 20. Maybe thats worth noting also. (T/C) 10:31, 23 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Yes, I can confirm this, having grinded my way to Legendary with one character. I noticed the same thing and thought it to be slighly odd. — egads talk 18:07, 26 May 2006 (CDT)

This cant be right its not fair that i cant get the title with my ranger ever since ive died with her before so you guys are sure i cant have ne deaths on my /death count?

It would be good to note that PVP deaths do count against /deaths. My character with 0 deaths lost the survivor track after dying once in Ascalon arena.

Note: Deaths from failed missions and missions in which you must die do not count against this. -- Someone explain this. Could you die, and then fail the mission after being brought back up and you'd still have the title? I think the wording needs to explain more about this aspect, because it could be taken to be the way above. 12.217.242.132 01:13, 3 August 2006 (CDT)
 * This means that if an npc you are supposed to keep alive (like Prince Rurik) dies, the mission fails, and your party noticeably "dies" as well. But this doesn't count towards your death count. Missions in which you must die are usually caused by cutscenes, which also do not count. As for your question, no that wouldn't work at all. It would be treated as if you died from any other normal cause (mobs). The note says that failing to protect an npc or forced death are sources of death that do not count. If you die, then fail the mission, the mission failure did not cause your death. --Vortexsam 17:00, 7 August 2006 (CDT)

I had a funny suprise after completing Vizunah Square mission, had a ranger with 135k xp at the end and I did not die, after the mission, apparently I had, Is this because of the cinematic ? Thanks a lot Anet, huge effort wasted because of this ! --Hnyman

I think this would be a good thing to find out, in pre-searing you have to do the 4v4 battle and i am not sure if these count toward your death counter. To be safe i just stayed outta battle. If any1 coudl find this out it migh thelp out some new players.
 * I tested the 4 on 4 battle and the death counts !!! So, a high lvl helps ;) --oloSK

Got Legendary Survivor with my Paragon today. I would like to mention that the number in the title bar keeps rising (although the bar stays at max) after you get Legendary. I assume it'll keep going til I die. 132.203.83.38 22:45, 21 February 2007 (CST)

Well I was tryng to get survivior my paragon and I hadnt been in the Jokanur Diggings before, I got hit by the stone and lost the title. I also so noticed that the title doesnt start until you reach level 5

Ive received my first level of survivor a long while ago. i apparently died due to lag. i was at 443392 exp. according to the page, the first level stays the same with the 140600exp. after receiving the first level. so i should only have needed to get 302792 exp. which would bring me to 746184 exp. i have just exceeded that, but perhaps i need to double where the track stopped at in order for it to continue. or possibly it just stops after you die? i doubt thats the case seeing it says it will restart.-Filian Bronse [EviL] Necromancer.

Leetsoo!!
I just can't help but wondering, if the number 1,337,500 for the Legendary Survivor title has some numeric meaning, (like the first Survivor, which is level 20), or did they pick it to say that anyon who gets this title must be just so 1337! [?]. Foo 16:03, 7 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Hehe, I thought immediately about it when I saw the number and came to a conclusion that it's a little joke. 1337 indeed. :D --Gem [[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png|Gem]] 01:37, 8 May 2006 (CDT)
 * It's leet point five, or leet and a half :) ... slightly better than leet. --Phelios
 * In other words, super elite. (71.80.38.191 11:57, 28 March 2007 (CDT))

ELE (Experience Level Equivalent)
Experience Level Equivalent (ELE), is simply the level of a character in relation to a character's experience. For example:

587,500 exp = ELE 50

I saw a discussion in a forum somewhere recently and I thought it was a good way of categorising these "virtual" levels. Just a nice little method that seems more efficient :) . I'd like to see it being used by other sites as a more official way, if you like of describing virtual levels. --  Saintly  04:48, 30 July 2006 (CDT)


 * This is just the amount of experience required to earn 50 skill points (starting from 0), right? Useful, but hardly needs a new term itself. --JoDiamonds 16:53, 7 August 2006 (CDT)

Wrong. Experience needed for next level beyond level 20 continue to increase at a steady pace. I've made a spreadsheet just to calculate this specifically. Indomitable survivor will be attained halfway between level 42~43. And Legendary Survivor will be achieved at level 65 as the total experience needed for level 65 is exactly that amount stated. It's not a random number assigned by Anet. It's just nice that level 65 is 1337,600. - Maxwell &quot;Victory is Mine!&quot; 12:09, 6 September 2006 (CDT)
 * According to the experience page the amount of XP needed to gain a skill point after level 24 is 15,000. I have not discovered this to be untrue.  Can you provide some proof for your assertion? Kai 12:17, 6 September 2006 (CDT)
 * The text in that article is correct but the table below it is out of date. The XP needed for "levels" after 20 has been capped at 15k for almost a year now.  --Fyren 12:20, 6 September 2006 (CDT)
 * My point is that Maxwell is asserting that the amount of experience for "levels" after 20 continues to increase. By either the table or the text on that page, the cap is 15,000 (applied at some level close to 20), which makes the edits Maxwell made to the title page incorrect. Kai 12:56, 6 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I just edited the table. The text said it was capped at 15k, but the table indicated between 20 and 24 it took less than 15k.  --Fyren 13:00, 6 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I was mistaken about the table. (I wasn't disagreeing about there being a cap.)  --Fyren 13:26, 6 September 2006 (CDT)

Deaths during cutscenes
It is still possible to die during cutscenes AND have it count as a death, thereby killing the survivor line. Deaths caused by the cutscene don't count towards it, but deaths from enemies physically attacking you do. This happened to me during Vizunah Square, where my team happened to have 3 Minion masters. Upon dieing, the minions go rogue and when we ressed they all attacked and killed me, which counted as a real death. I thought it was a bug but Anet support says things are working as intended. :( Just another thing to watch out for. I would have edited it myself but the edit button seems to be missing. (Author Unknown)

Deaths during cutscenes, /resign not safe
The above would imply that if there are no minions standing, or if they don't attack you during the cut scene at Vizunah, that as long as you entered the cut scene with /deaths 0, you will arrive at Dragon's Throat with /deaths 0. This is not necessarily true. The cut scene death does count, depending on which build of the game you are running. The build that was active 12/19/2006 does cause an actual death (and the end of title progress) during the Vizunah cut scene. Similarly, the wisdom on /resign is not reliable. Guildies have reported /deaths 1 after /resign, especially right after Nightfall, but about a week before that one of my characters did /resign and it did not count. The moral of this story is... beware any death at all because the terms may change as frequently as the game builds. Stjarnskott 13:17, 19 December 2006 (CST)Stjarnskott
 * Well this is just lovely -.- You'd think they'd have bug checked stuff like this by now. -Scyfer 07:48, 10 January 2007 (CST)
 * Oh hey, I got 1 death after quitting a mission (by teleporting to the guild hall) where I had ~200 hitpoints and poison + a couple of other conditions on me. No death during the mission, yet this counted as a death. Great :p (This was in Moddok Crevice btw, beware). -76.166.23.65 23:59, 2 March 2007 (CST)
 * Oh and then I go die again normally and THEN i get the "you have died, wait for your party to resurrect you" popup. So the first death was definitely a bug/coding feature/thanks a lot Anet for wasting my time on your buggy game.-76.166.23.65 00:01, 3 March 2007 (CST)


 * The Vizunah square cutscene often causes a "real" death (ie, raising the number returned with /deaths) if there are minions about, or if your character is wielding a vamp weapon, and possibly also for degen conditions (poison, bleeding, and the like). --Reason.decrystallized 06:51, 28 June 2007 (CDT)

Message to Arenanet
I'm not sure if an employee of ArenaNet makes it to this page, but if so, I have one request to the developers: Please make the Survivor Title available for existing characters. The current situation is just unfair. If there is a good reason for the current implementation please post it, as I'm sure many people want to know it. One thing I couly imagine is that you could amass finished quests and claim the rewards in go. But as there are simple solutions to counter such behaviour, this is no real reason. The other reason why Veterans are excluded might be that players might be forced to create new characters just for that reason. This would be a lame excuse, in my mind. So, if there is any other good reason, please post it.

And to all those feeling like me... Just leave a short message here and maybe we'll achieve something. Thanks! --Kai Neah Nung 20:57, 5 December 2006 (CST)


 * In what sense, "Existing Characters"? If they have no deaths to date, I guess that stands to reasoning. If you're talking about existing characters, but they've died before, it doesn't earn them the Survivor title. Yes, you may be arguing that your characters didn't die until after they've reached level 20, but do you have proof? A possible, and logical, reason why A-Net only open the title to new characters after the title is released because they didn't have a system to keep track of the old characters' experience vs deaths back then. Hence, no Survivor for old characters. Be happy with what you have, don't ask for things that's out of reach. 202.156.13.4 13:26, 6 December 2006 (CST)


 * Ok, maybe I should have used another expression. Of course it is available characters without deaths. That's clear. My intention was to ask for a new system to get the title. E.g. by gaining 140k, 587k and 1337k XP without dying BUT starting at any point. Like that the title will be available for every character without changing the rules for new characters. --Kai Neah Nung 08:44, 7 December 2006 (CST)

Don't waste your time. Take it to guru/tgh etc. &mdash; Skuld 13:34, 6 December 2006 (CST)


 * Why am I wasting my time? I think this is something worth fighting for. And I'll find some fellowers here, then we'll probably go to Guru. --Kai Neah Nung 08:44, 7 December 2006 (CST)

In my opinion it would be nice if they would create some system allowing characters who have died to earn that title. For example - after gaining 100 k experience your death points are "reset" - and it allows you to continue getting this title. But that's only my dream ;)Archeont 15:47, 6 December 2006 (CST)


 * That's exactly what I was talking about ;) At least one person who thinks like me --Kai Neah Nung 08:44, 7 December 2006 (CST)


 * I'm happy you agree with me :). That change would be nice - survivor still would be "elite" title, but you would not have to destroy existing character to have it...Archeont 08:53, 8 December 2006 (CST)


 * Or if they would have "reset" the death counters of existing characters when this update came out. However that would have unbalanced it since it is considerably easier to not die at level 20, especially coming from Tyria and doing all the high XP low lvl quests in Cantha/Elona.--Devils Apprentice 07:21, 18 February 2007 (CST)


 * I think the fact that it is called Survivor would be a good enough reason for most pre-existing characters to not be able to earn it. Just because you weren't motivated to stay alive in the past doesn't mean you didn't die.  I actually had a Ranger who hadn't died at all in Tyria and when the titles came out she had the Survivor title.  I mean, I understand the frustration, but it IS the Survivor title - it's not their fault you died before. -Unsigned


 * While I can agree if the character has never died it'd make sense. It would lower the "value" of the title for existing survivors to have it changed to "between deaths" instead of "from creation", as people who struggled through the lower levels, survived til they got max armour, survived ascension had to go through a much bigger struggle than people who already had max armour, stats and weapons and simply earned 1,337,600xp between deaths.


 * Imagine if they changed another title to have much lower requirements (Say grandmaster cartographer only needed 90% instead of 100% - all those who struggled for 100% would feel cheated)--85.62.18.3 09:29, 10 June 2007 (CDT)

Quest reward
would it be possible to gain this title by getting lots and lots of quests, completing them but not accepting the reward till you have the am amount of experience needed in total from quest rewards,then go around the towns accepting them all? --A Glitch 13:16, 17 December 2006 (GMT)


 * Yes, but isn't there more chance of dieing whilst completing them? &mdash; Skuld 13:17, 17 December 2006 (CST)
 * As stated on the main page, there's no benefit from holding quests after level 20. There's no experience gain after that.Cyrogenic 13:20, 17 December 2006 (CST)

you still gain experience after level 20, thats how you gain skill points, but i was thinking this may be a way for already existing characters to gain the title but im not sure if it would work --A Glitch 13:22, 17 December 2006 (CST)
 * If you ever die a non-scripted death, you lose Survivor perpetually. You can't get it back just by acquiring a lot of XP. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 13:49, 17 December 2006 (CST)

oh...well thats annoying...--A Glitch 14:06, 17 December 2006 (CST)
 * Pardons,A Glitch, I was refering to something slightly different. There is no further experience BONUS after level 20.  You do get more experience if you turn in a quest at level 20 than if you turn in a quest at level 5 (so it says, never noticed myself, as I have no trouble getting xp), but you don't get any more at virtual level 25, than at level 20.  (virt level is the "skill point progression")Cyrogenic 21:34, 17 December 2006 (CST)

ohhhhh i understand you now :P --A Glitch 20:06, 27 December 2006 (CST)

Well, you do get less experience from enemies, so it could be beneficial to try to get as high as you can before accepting a quest reward, since the reward is the same regardless of level, where the experience you get from enemies is not.

Farming
An easy way of getting this title would be to take a runner to a high level town, such as Droknars Forge. Get the high level armor and start farming places most suitable for your profession, where you know you have 100% chance of survival, like taking monk as a primary profession and start farming as an invicimonk. For a warrior it´s best to get ascended and then use the warrior/ritualist build to farm Underworld, I have never died using that build in Underworld... So... Farm your way to level 100 :) --Soulflame 11:11, 27 Februari 2007 (CMT)
 * Another easy way of getting the title could be to farm elite skills. Get your signet and then just seek out all the bosses you know of and cap away.. Change your secondary prof when needed and just capture as many elite skills as you can as 1 captured elite skill yields 5000xp. Keep an eye out for those "double-xp-from-capturing-elite-skills" weekends too :) (Soulflame 12:10, 4 March 2007 (CST))
 * Farming in that way may be the worst possible way to earn survivor. For multiple reasons. First, you have to get a run or get to a town that offers max armor. That's not very hard anymore, but then you suggest to do it with an Invincimonk build. Which means max armor doesn't mean anything. Not to mention that one of the Core Skills of the Invincimonk, especially for solo-farming is Shield of Judgement. So you have to take your Budding Survivor all the way to the Mineral Springs, capture the Skill (Most likely with Hench), and then get all of the other equipment you need.  Then, you're still gambling. I don't care how good you are at Invincimonk, those trolls killed you at least once.  Want to know a good way to get Survivor? Don't act like an idiot.  14 of the last 14 Characters I've made got at least the first level of Survivor, 3 got Indominitable, and 1 is Legendary. And all I did play smart. I only capped ~100 Elites (500k XP) and all of the rest was done by fighting.  It's not that hard, but it does take patience and luck.  Also, /shame on people who buy this title.
 * First of all: Stop with the hostility and dont call me and idiot cause I'm trying to share ideas and come with suggestions. Second of all: I never said you should get max armor for your invincimonk, I said:
 * "Farming places most suitable for your profession, where you know you have 100% chance of survival, like taking monk as a primary profession and start farming as an invicimonk."
 * Personally I dont farm for survivor title, I just suggested it. I just adventure through all campaigns doing mission and quests. I have only capped a few elite skills and I dont even have SoJ. If you want I can even put up a screenshot to proove it. Come with something constructive instead of something destructive, but if you are, critisism in all glory but if you´re gonna crush a suggestion then be sure to have a better one ready. And for crying out loud show some balls and sign your comment if you're gonna call someone an idiot! (Soulflame 16:03, 19 March 2007 (CDT))
 * lol /agree see signed >>>>>oris rhy 16:08, 19 March 2007 (CDT)<<<<< hard init
 * Soulflame, I don't think you quite understand what went on here. You proposed an idea, in fact, let me quote exactly what you said so you understand why I said the things I did. First Line: "An easy way of getting this title would be to take a runner to a high level town, such as Droknars Forge." I disagree with this point by saying that you have to get a run to a high level town. I could have mentioned how dangerous this can be, especially to Droknar's (Which was your example). I agree that I could have explained this better.  Second Line: "Get the high level armor and start farming places most suitable for your profession,..." You said get max armor, and I (stupidly /sarcasm) assumed you were talking to all professions, since you didn't single out any particular build. My bad. And once again you bring up the Invincimonk farming, which you know doesn't have a 100% chance.  Also, I didn't call you an idiot, I told you not to act like one. If you can't perceive a difference, you're already failing.  You want constructive criticism? Figure out what it is, and when you post bad ideas, prepare to have them trounced.  Teach me how to sign, and I'll sign anything. Until I know how, you'll have to settle for this, sorry. -KeithM.

--kraut 14:36, 30 March 2007 (CDT)== Sorrow's Furnace ==

Sorrow's Furnace
Lemme tell you, Sorrow's Furnace is a *great* place to get survivor ranks. You can play as virtually any build, so long as you have a good crew of henchmen and heroes. Personally I recommend doing some form of monking yourself - to increase your survival chance - and setting up Zhed, Sousuke, and Norgu as searing flame spammers with two interupt skills. Power Drain & Leech signet for energy management, with glowing gaze & lesser glyph of energy for further energy management. With Searing Flames being their only real attack skill, the ai will spam it constantly - using the emanagement skills asap. Starting from deldrimor war camp, one can do summit slave runs (and all the subsidiary quests from flamewhip inside sorrow's furnace) in about 30 minutes, netting you a grand total of 9,500 xp per run. This is completely safe too, there is zero chance of you dying. The ice crushers can kill you, but the death does not count. I died there myself, and freaked, then checked my /deaths, and saw it didn't count. The run is fairly simple and straight forward, and only requires effort during the large fight against the dredge mobs + the four rebel spirit dredges, and the fight against the flame djinn. DO NOT LET THE FLAME DJINN SINGLE YOU OUT - letting this happen, however, is actually fairly difficult since the djinn will prefer to attack your heroes and henchmen rather then you. Sometimes it won't even attack, it dies quickly - yes, to searing flames - if this happens. Otherwise, command flag your entire party next to the djinn so its attack does little to no damage. This is also a great way to get skill points if you've already spent every last one capping to get legendary survivor... Anyways, I just got my first Legendary Survivor (a dervish), and I'm estatic! Hope this recommendation helps. It's alot easier then farming, and safer too. Just be careful getting to droks. {Dubby 12:04, 28 March 2007 (CDT)}


 * Great advice! I was thinking about doing Sorrow's with my first Legendary Survivor but decided it was a bit risky. I guess I'll give it a run with the one I'm trying now (Ranger). I think I'll avoid fighting the Forgeman and the Djinn though. They are a little too hectic for my liking. A friend also suggested doing the first quest of FoW repeatedly during last weekend. Wasn't a bad idea either. 10k per quest completion is pretty good. Sirocco 15:01, 28 March 2007 (CDT)


 * im a lvl 8 mo/me and i have made it to droks w/o dying and now have max armor but i dont play this char cause im afraid of dying lol does anyone have any suggestions on where i can go to lvl fast and be safe also is it safe to go to sorrows furnace as lvl 8 or should i just keep my finger on the F12 buttonkraut 14:36, 30 March 2007 (CDT)


 * It's very, very easy to do if you have the right skills already unlocked. Like I said, I used three searing flames spammers, two monk henchmen, another fire henchmen, and a blood henchmen.  Set yourself up with any sort of party heal, use the flag command to tell your party to approach an enemy group on radar, then sit back from a safe distance and use your party heal spell when able.  Monk isn't quite as good as this, though LoD helps alot.  Mystic Healing will do a much better job at this though.  But yeah, if you're Mo/Me, just take it safe, keep protective bond + other protection spells on you, and go yoink Light of Deliverance.  Should be easy to do, LoD is a pretty easy cap.  (of course, in my case, to make good use of mystic healing you have to go all the way up to nundu bay mission... to get arcane zeal.)  Eitherway, that should help you greatly kraut.  The key is to minimize the damage you take by minimizing the risk to yourself (hence, protective bond NOT protective spirit), and keeping your distance from the fight.  If things look bad, you're at a safe enough distance that the monsters will not engage you, and you can go back to the nearest outpost in complete safety.  Good Luck. (Dubby 01:57, 1 April 2007 (CDT))

With tomes, you can get SoJ without capping it now :) Hope that makes this easier

A thing I hate...
...more than the summer, is to make new characters. It always makes me aim for survivor, and then makes me feel bad for a week when I fail it. 90.224.106.83 11:23, 11 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Another thing is when Guildwiki logs me out by itself; that's what happened above. Yaki 11:25, 11 June 2007 (CDT)

I beat Vizunah Square
its very easy i dont think you can die during the cutscene because if there are unbound minions then they usually attack the henchmen or just start do die off
 * well, i think its safest to simply skip and hope the best xP -- [[image:Elixir_Of_Valor.jpg|15x15px]] Zerpha The Improver 16:19, 23 July 2007 (CDT)

FFF
has anyone tried to archieve this title with fff? i started with elite skill capping now, but i think this is faster and safer... -- Zerpha The Improver 16:17, 23 July 2007 (CDT)