Talk:Paragon

Image rights
I do not believe we have rights to use the image. If we do, please post that info. Otherwise, the images need to be deleted from here. We can provide links to the GameSpot site that contains the image. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 11:16, 18 July 2006 (CDT)

Offical Site now has pictures ... we should post those &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.53.240.75 &bull; contribs) 16:29, July 18, 2006.
 * Our current Image use policy says: "2. Do not use images taken from the Official site with the exception of those found in the fansite kits". Changes to that policy are now being discussed in the policy's discussion page. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:37, 18 July 2006 (CDT)

Rit Remake
Seems like a remake of a Rit, just like the other seems like a remake of an Asn... I'll take that Suicide Health now. &mdash; Rapta   (talk|contribs) 22:27, 18 July 2006 (CDT)
 * To me, it seems more like a remake of the ele. Except instead of making a damage class thats really better at playing support, Anet is explicitly making a support class.  Wards == Auras/Chants amirite?

well actually, rits summon spirits and according to the description, this is more of a monk(woohoo!) as rits are like ranger(as spirits go) and monks(restoration). i do hope that this profession will be a real change and not just a Jr. version of an older profession
 * well, i doubt itll just be a copy of an older profession, as guild wars has never done this before, and thier are so many possabilities. id say they are closer to the ranger (throwing spears)/mo then a ritulist.
 * To me it sounds a lot like a combination of Amazon (javelins), Paladin (auras) and Barbarian (warcries) from Diablo 2. In Guild Wars terms, I'm thinking Paragons are like a combination of Ranger (javelins) and Warrior (shouts). I suspect that chants are pretty much more powerful shouts with upkeep cost and a limit of only maintaining one at a time (you can't chant two things at once). -- Gordon Ecker 15:31, 19 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Bard. --Black Ark 15:50, 19 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Let's see ... *checks SRD* ... yep, bards can use ranged weapons, and these guys look like bards with the serial numbers filed off. -- Gordon Ecker 18:23, 19 July 2006 (CDT)
 * But with a lot more flavour and uniqueness than your standard "Bard". Fits the setting, in other terms. --Valentein 05:55, 20 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm also guessing that the whole Paragon-deal (shiny, shiny armour, shiny eyes, shiny everything) is to make it easier for players to digest. "Bard" is a very prevalent char-class in anything remotely RPG-based (I'm not looking for a discussion on whether or not GW is an RPG, thanks), but not a very glorious one. "Warrior/Bard", can you see that happening? "Warrior/Paragon" sounds good, though. --Black Ark 06:17, 20 July 2006 (CDT)

I'll bet party-level chants, sort of like the bard singing in the back of an AD&D party... There is only one ranged physical attack profession in the game now anyway - the ranger. The only issue I have is - those spears had better not have an AMMO COUNT or I will drop the game outright. :P Kessel 05:59, 20 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Bards? Paragons involve leadership skills, even the description says so. I'm more inclined to see this as a Marshall, from the Miniatures Handbook. --Ab.Er.Rant (msg Aberrant80) 18:20, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Anthem? Lyric? Refrain? Finale? They're bards with spears. In fact they've got a lot in common with the War Chanter prestige class from Complete Warrior with a focus on Javelin-realed feats. Or maybe a War Chanter / Bard / Marshal. -- Gordon Ecker 01:14, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

Sounds like ANet is having a second try to install a second common backline support class (after they more or less failed with Rts). --Xeeron 09:20, 20 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm not sure I'm making an unqualified assumption when I say that most players in PUGs believe only in a traditional tank-monk-heavy style party, and are generally unwilling to try new combinations. It also doesn't help that half the people playing the new stuff are not much good at it. (DC assassin without defensives, oh my!) I'm actually hoping they see some measure of success with the support classes so that perspectives of what makes a good party gradually change. Kessel 10:56, 20 July 2006 (CDT)
 * i have a hard time beleiving that the rit failed, as thier is hardly a succesful hoh team that doesn't use one.Detraya fullvear
 * Not sure about it being a "second try"; that would imply they evaluated the Ritualists and tried again. When they in reality develop these chapters semi-concurrently. The Paragon design was more than likely thought of already when Factions shipped. -- 213.113.67.150 17:55, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I have no idea that there are opinions around that Rits are a failure. And yea, developments go concurrently, so I doubt this was inspired by Rits not performing as expected. --Ab.Er.Rant (msg Aberrant80) 18:20, 25 July 2006 (CDT)

Hex removal
From the Gamespot Preview:
 * "The paragon isn't meant to be a frontline fighter. Instead, the paragon is best suited in a support role as a battle commander, capable of supporting teammates by throwing spears and using verbal chants and shouts that can boost the fighting abilities of those nearby. And the paragon's angelic nature isn't just aesthetic, as this profession's presence can help teammates resist hexes and other curses."

It never explicitly says that they have hex removal skills. It that sounds more like they have some chant or aura that either either reduces hex duration on allies (sort of like Tranquility reduces enchantment duration), increases the energy cost of hexes or provides a percentage chance to interrupt hexes cast by enemies. I think they'll go with the first option. -- Gordon Ecker 18:44, 20 July 2006 (CDT)
 * no water from this stone. we don't know, no one outside of anet nightfall team knows, and they aren't talking to us. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 18:51, 20 July 2006 (CDT)
 * So a remake of a Warrior in Ranger armor and range? &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 19:29, 20 July 2006 (CDT)


 * My guess? The primary attribute of the Paragon profession will be some kind of "Holiness" attribute, and the innate ability of that primary attribute will be that allies "in the area" (or adjacent or nearby), will gain +N% chance of resisting a hex. --Karlos 19:32, 20 July 2006 (CDT)
 * By "resisting" do you mean casting will fail or as in duration reduction? Just wondering. - 19:49, 20 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Could be either. --Karlos 20:05, 20 July 2006 (CDT)


 * interesting, youd have at least one in eery party, to have a huge chance of making hexes fail. o, and holyness is already taken, unless holyness and divine favor are diferent. :P 12.226.181.40
 * Of course they are different. One is about how holy you are.  The other is about how much the gods like you.  Depending on the culture/religion, those can easily be completely disconnected issues. - 03:08, 21 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Oh no. I foresee a huge problem here - because a Paragon with 16 ranks in that attribute reall IS Holier than Thou. I think the Hex-treatment might be the big thing for Paragons, yes. Although "holiness" sounds a bit crooked. "Angelic Vigor" or something would work better, although that does kind of sound like the Elonian alternative for Viagra. --Black Ark 03:57, 21 July 2006 (CDT)

If this is true and we have to test if Paragons stack I'm going to break some necks around here. :P Kessel 06:54, 21 July 2006 (CDT)
 * oy, thats only.... what, 1000 hexes we have to cast? with a party of sayyy... 1, 2, 3, and 4 of them? thats only 4000 hexes. Detraya fullvear

if thats true, paragon will be a staple in the fabled: "Paragon solo summit farmer" build heh heh... Samurai snack 17:41, 23 July 2006 (CDT)

Attribute Info
The attribute info from User:roofle originated here: http://www.guildwars.com/events/ingame/gwn-pvppreview.php --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 12:32, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
 * that's right, and i did source it on the nightfall talk page. Also, why did you change the primary attribute even if you don't even know what the attributes are yourself?  accordin to that page spear mastery is the primary. --roofle 12:35, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Ummm, I'm not the one who changed it. But it's a valid question to the person who did. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 12:37, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Wiseblade was the one who changed it. (See the history) If I would have to guess, I would say that Leadership is the primary too, but it's on the GW official site, so ... --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 12:46, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
 * i can see leadership non-primary being a problem, since "Watch Yourself!" would be a major source of healing and energy for PvE W/P, but until ANet corrects it, or we have event proof, we can make no corrections. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 12:57, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
 * the page got updated a while back to reflect leadership as the primary attribute after all. just posting this here for the record :) --roofle 21:27, 25 July 2006 (CDT)

Shields
The art on the Japanese version of the Nightfall PvP Preview information page depicts the Paragon with a spear and a shield. -- Gordon Ecker 05:41, 26 July 2006 (CDT)
 * While this all still speculation, although it does make sense that they'd have a shield, I've never seen a depiction of a spear being thrown with two hands, I'd be super-psyched if spears were a one-handed ranged weapon. --KeeseroGuan 08:27, 26 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Also speculation, but it seems possible that shields could become linked to an additional attribute (I'm thinking Command, since the description makes it sound closest to Tactics).
 * Interestingly sometimes Spearman did use shields according to Wikipedia#s disambigulation page, but when I played as a spearman in Maple Story we were sort of a ranged melee fighter that attacked with a polearm or spear rather than chuck them. --Jamie [[Image:Jamie.jpg|24px|(Talk Page)]] 08:42, 26 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I've played Maple Story as well, coincidentally, also as a warrior who used spears/polearms. The difference with the Paragon is, in my opinion, that they really aren't so much spears or polearms, which are used for thrusting and chopping, respectively, as much as they are javelins, which are thrown. --KeeseroGuan 09:20, 26 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Some spear-throwing techniques did require the use of two hands, particularly when a device such as an atlatl or woomera was used to increase throwing velocity (though it's also possible to use an atlatl with only one hand). See for example 1 2 --Dtremenak 12:07, 26 July 2006 (CDT)
 * It's a bit of a moot point though, as I'm fairly certain Paragons won't be using an atlatl. --67.165.22.236 11:06, 27 July 2006 (CDT)
 * That's true. It would be cool, though...it would be cool.  --Dtremenak 19:05, 27 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I Played Paragon during the preview weekend, every spear I ran into was a ranged on handed weapon, and their offhand Items seem to be mainly shields.

Usefulness
Is it just me, or do Paragons seem rather.. weak compared to the Dervish? Chants and Shouts are pretty cool, but you only have 8 skill slots and many of them have a long recharge compared to their duration and effect. - Greven 11:54, 30 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Personally, I think the skills just haven't been balanced yet, since this is only a beta. We shouldn't start questioning the usefulness of a profession until it's been in the games a few months. I remember Ritualist being thought by some people as a useless profession, and now its quite popular. &mdash; Amontillado[[Image:Amontillado.png|23px]] (T/C) 11:58, 30 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I agree. EVERYONE wanted to play the assassin when Factions came out; now nobody wants one in their party (though this isn't the class's fault.  People just don't know how to play a proper assassin).  I think both of these classes are going to be very useful, and I think there is going to be a whole new dynamic to the game.   We're going from 56 possible character combinations to 90!!  Once the next expansion comes out, it's going to be 132!  Crazy.
 * Back to the point, though: the paragon might be weak compared to the dervish when looked at toe to toe, but the same can be said for virtually any "spellcasting" class. It's all a matter of how it is played, and how well it works in a group environment. Both will take time to learn, and I'd bet that there will be many people begging Paragons to join their party once the uses of the class are learned.--Token Cleric 17:54, 11 August 2006 (CDT)

My 1st NF character was a Paragon...and now i'm makin a Dervish (owns much more), but still, in PvP (HA), u see almost only E Mo R Me N ( and maybe W), but not any Factions/Nightfall specific profession. -.-

Info from Taiwan official website
http://guildwars.nctaiwan.com/event/globeEvent/ch3Preview/event.asp

Only second paragraph contained info of interest. Using awkward phrasing and grammar to best preserve original structure and connotations:


 * Paragons are the guardian angels of the Elonian people, chosen by the gods to be agents in disguise, and are the fighters against the threat of evil on this land. Every Paragon has suffered a near-death incident in their childhood, but they successfully survived.  Paragons attribute their chance survival to the gods, so they hold on to one pricinple - dedicate their own lives to be the servents of the gods among humans.

I wonder if there will be any monsters who are paragons... o_O""" - 02:09, 8 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Odd, that sounds like it'd fit better with Dervishes. Anyway the gods don't play favourites, and elite skills don't grow on trees. I'm more interested about the bosses with the avatar forms. -- Gordon Ecker 02:21, 8 August 2006 (CDT)


 * As am I. Would be neat if the bosses with the Avatar forms look like the avatars all the time, rather than only when they use their form. Beat them, get their power, etc. etc. --Valentein 06:54, 26 August 2006 (CDT)

Does the armor seem a bit... weird to you?
80 armor, +10 energy, no energy regen. Weird combo, ne? Anyone have any ideas about why they did it that way, other than "to be weird"? &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 01:24, 19 September 2006 (CDT)
 * It's somewhere inbetween warrior and spellcaster, as it has the AL and energy regen of a warrior, but the energy bonus of a spellcaster. This makes sense, as many paragon skills use low energy (5 or 10), or are adrenaline based. Also, they have some very powerful shouts and chants for energy management. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 02:03, 19 September 2006 (CDT)
 * It's almost a warrior's AL, a warrior's energy regen, and a spellcaster's energy bonus. A bit odd compared to, say, a ranger, which actually has all three stats somewhere in between a warrior's and a caster's. I find it strange that the Ranger is still the only class with 3 points of energy regen. I guess they really just want to make you use Leadership for all your energy needs. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 02:06, 19 September 2006 (CDT)
 * They don't need regen, they have Leadership. Heavily armoured casters who.. uh don't actually cast :p &mdash; Skuld 03:41, 19 September 2006 (CDT)

Dance
Has anyone seen the male paragon dance? (it's on the official site now). I thought nothing could be worse than male Rit, but now I know better... I thought I would laugh myself to death ;P It will definitely add some spice to the city dance parties. ^^ -- Stylva 23:08, 19 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Does anyone know what dance it was copied off from? Michael Jackson, likely... been trying to figure it out... the thing is.. I KNOW those moves. -- Purplyana 13:20, 20 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I heard someone use the sentence "Beat It" together with this dance, I think it was on the GWOnline forums. -- Stylva 13:32, 20 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Yeah, BF and I found it just now after relentless YouTubing. It's "Beat It" with a few other movies tossed in. Video can be found here. -- Purplyana 13:35, 20 September 2006 (CDT)


 * The Dervish dance is based on a tribal dance I think...

Thumbnail
When I was looking at the skill trader today, I noticed a different thumbnail representing the Paragon than. I have an image, but don't know how to upload it. It'd be nice to change this if we see it as a permanent GW change. The Uglymancer 14:37, 22 October 2006 (CDT)
 * K, I found out how, and I uploaded an image as [[Image:Paragon_image.PNG]]... could probably use a better one though, and I'd like someone to check/wait to see if this is permanent The Uglymancer 14:57, 22 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Might want to have a look here User_talk:LordBiro &mdash; Skuld 17:12, 22 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Oh, sorry, thanks. I really didn't notice.  Nevermind then, I like Biro's better. 24.19.163.245 18:06, 24 October 2006 (CDT)

Pre-Order Spear
I pre-ordered the game and still haven't gotten the fancy-schmancy spear that is supposed to come with every new paragon. I'm still on the island so I don't know if I'll get it later or what. Any info on when or what I need to do to get this would be great. Flesh Over Steel 10:16, 6 November 2006 (CST) nevermind quick search found Sunspear (Weapon) so you've got to enter /bonusitems or /preorder to get it.Flesh Over Steel 11:34, 6 November 2006 (CST)

Gods
Which gods are the paragons attuned to??? Balthazar or all 5?
 * If you'd read the article, you would see that the patron god of the paragon is Dwayna and Balthazar.Giangn626 11:31, 19 November 2006 (CST)

I wrote that :P I wanted to know so I kept searching.

I thought that they served all gods ?_? -- SigmA 12:23, 14 February 2007 (CST)

Perfect Survivors
I just felt like saying that Paragons make the perfect class for anyone wanting to get the Survivor title. The reasons: I'm curious to know if anyone thinks that a note about their survivability should be added. --Curse You 15:01, 10 December 2006 (CST)
 * Paragons have the highest default armour level against all damage (tied with warriors)
 * They use a ranged weapon, and so can stay out of harms way
 * They have their own shields
 * Their shouts, chants and echos can make them very hard to kill, as long as they have allies around them
 * They have speed buff skills for running away (survivour title joke)
 * Personal experience will agree with this. My 'gon is level 13 at the moment and well on his way to Survivor. Only character I've ever gotten that far, matter of fact. Apeiron 23:53, 22 December 2006 (CST)

Sheez, my Canthan warrior was a survivor too, until I had some lagg then BOOM!! So, actually everyone can be a survivor easily, you only need good support and no lagg. -- SigmA 12:25, 14 February 2007 (CST)

With the new system, that you can control where your henchmen are going, there really is no reason anymore why someone can't become a survivor.

PvE Monster Armour Bonus
Does anyone know if the bonus armour of PvE Paragon monsters protects vs a special condition like elemental attacks (see Ranger) or physical attacks (see Warrior)? Do they have any extra conditional armour anyway? --Birchwooda Treehug 14:51, 2 February 2007 (CST)

Deletion

 * Lets nerf Paragons some more. --Deathwing 23:27, 9 February 2007 (CST)


 * Note - do not abuse the wiki processes to make a point, as it is disruptive. I have inserted the "nowiki" tags to remove the inserted delete notice.  Applying the delete tag adds the impacted page to the category "Candidates for deletion", requireing an admin to review the article.  --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 12:46, 11 February 2007 (CST)
 * My apologies --Deathwing 13:24, 11 February 2007 (CST)

It's the sad truth isn't it? More nerfs again. There's only one skill that got nerfed that wasn't a para skill today. I mean, really, WTF? Incoming lasts for 3s... woopey! Motivation- nerfed. Spears- half boosted/half nerfed. Have you ever heard of anyone saying the spear line is overpowered? They just nerf every emerging build that is even vaguely usable. Sigh. 132.203.83.38 00:39, 10 February 2007 (CST)


 * Yes, I totally agree. It would have been nice if the Paragon could heal a bit. Now Motivation just can't do anything. Everything it can so, it can't do very well. So either add useful skills, or make the Paragon a better healer. now, Motivation requires a hefty investment with little to no return.

The Future of Paragons
Although lately Paragons are in a questionable state, I think that with the next campaign, and the prospect of at least 20 new skills to work with (assuming the same pattern is followed)--the seemingly brutal nerfs to the Paragon could seem reasonably positive. There are many more routes of "party-wide buffing" to pursue--and the Paragon could see more focus and synergy within their own skills to revolve builds around:
 * I could forsee conditional Adrenaline gain Chants, stationed in the Motivation attribute--that act much like the current Health and Energy gain when "the next skill-type" is used. In the same way, I could see a nifty new elite in the Leadership attribute that acts much like Song of Power, yet instead of Energy regen; a 5 or 10 second duration, +1 to all Allies/Party members attributes within earshot that ends the next time a skill is used. This would act as a one-time mini Glyph of Elemental Power for everyone. Of course, such a skill would merit a hefty 60-second recharge, I think. Though, it is a wonder if such a thing would break more things than help--if the Paragon's PvP outlook remains the same?

I know this is just contemplation, but I like to share my ideas--in hopes that players think of the Paragon's possibilities in the future 'when there are more petals on the flower' so to say, for lack of thinking of some other analogy. :P &mdash;  19:18, 16 February 2007 (CST)

A.Net should heavily review the Paragon's Skillset to allow for more diversity.
I find Guild Wars' balancing system and skill depth to be so beautiful because all Professions can function, however meekly, as any role on the battlefield. Backline Monks can become frontline Smiters, midline Rangers can become frontline Thumpers, backline Ritualists can become midline Glaivers, frontline Warriors can become midline knockdown fiends, etc. That is, except for Paragons. Where do Paragons fit in the above description, and how diverse is he? The Paragon fits somewhere in the midline, but lacks synergy within its own Profession and outside to function very effectively anywhere else. Ritualists, seen as one of the least effective-at-what-it-does professions in the game, are significantly more diverse than the Paragon. Compounded with the jack-of-all, master-of-none Skillset is the ten ton nerfs slung to the Paragons as of late. In short, I am a very frustrated player. Having unlocked all of the skills for my Paragon, I am still left with roughly the same skills on my bar as I had at level 5. Additionally, he remains the only character I have that cannot specialize and be useful in a unique way that can equal another profession. He is fun, yes. And I enjoy him, yes. However, his purpose and role doesn't make sense in Guild Wars right now. It would be in A.Net and Guild Wars' best interest to revise the Skillset to aid players' ability to specialize the Paragon. GrammarNazi


 * I've acquired the Legendary Survivor title for my Paragon, with the same build I left Istan with, (save for a different elite). I really hope the next campaign can revitalise the Paragon with skills that are effective but not abusable. I really do hope that they can implement a drastic change to the way Paragons are played, much like how Nightfall greatly changed Assassins and Ritualists. Here's hoping. :P 132.203.83.38 18:05, 6 March 2007 (CST)
 * Paragons belong in the middle. I can do some damage with mine, but most of the time, what I do is keep up a constant armor bonus, allow everyone's attack skills to burn my enemies and gain them the energy back, and I can halt team wipes. True, atm there is no great way to use Command as I see it, but Motivation can be a saving grace in PVE especcially Urock 11:31, 28 April 2007 (CDT)

Lack of a Paragon Farming Build
I am feeling a lack of a paragon farming build...and it is really starting to bug me...><...Mebbe a 55? =|Caramel Ni 21:54, 22 March 2007 (CDT)


 * The problem is that Paragons don't have many good skills for self-healing that don't involve party members in some way. Also that their weapon - spears - is not at all ideal for farming...can stack lots of degen and damage on one target, but requires adrenaline (unlike Ranger) and thus isn't even that great for boss farming...since even with 80AL the Paragon can't last too long by itself. Unless you wanted to build something around "They're on Fire!" then I don't see how it could be done effectively. And unlike Dervish or Ranger who can utilize non-weapon ways to kill (Traps, Mystic Sandstorm, etc), Paragon has none such skills in their attributes. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 22:08, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

Saved by PvE only skills
As we all know, the reason Paragons kept getting hit with the nerf bat was because of how abused they could be in PvP in groups of more than two. Since there was no way to both make them effective in PvE and keep them under control in numbers in PvP, A-Net did the only thing it could possibly do: Introduce PvE only skills to strength the Paragon in PvE. I do think you'll agree the two new skills are incredibly helpful, perhaps more so than any of the other added skills in the update. Spen 01:35, 16 June 2007 (CDT)

They should have made Motivation playable.


 * Shame that anybody can use it to full effectiveness. --DEATHWING 15:03, 17 June 2007 (CDT)


 * I honestly don't see why a Paragon shouldn't be allowed to be a valid healer. I mean, you need much Leadership and a LOT of Motivation, leaving no room for spears and then you get a healer that can't even begin to look like a healer. What's so bad about making the Paragon capable of being a healer? Not everyone likes monks...