User talk:Dazra/buildarchive/Build:W/any Flailing Dragon

/Archive1

Rate-a-build
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Favoured:
 * 1) Excellent. &mdash;  Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 14:19, 3 January 2007 (CST)
 * What's posted on the article page is very much your build. As such, the above vote shouldn't count. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 15:42, 3 January 2007 (CST)
 * Fine, fine. =P &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 16:08, 3 January 2007 (CST)
 * 1) -- BigAstro 17:36, 3 January 2007 (CST)
 * 2) &mdash; Defiant Elements 01:47, 7 January 2007 (CST)
 * 3) Looks great to me. Looking forward to using it. — Jyro X [[Image:Darkgrin.jpg]] 01:52, 7 January 2007 (CST)
 * 4) I don't see why an already tested, favored build was reworked, but this is good. However, I'll still be using the old variant. Shadowborn Demon 05:22, 7 January 2007 (CST)
 * 5) So will I. This works all right, but I prefer the old one. &mdash; Azaya 17:50, 9 January 2007 (CST)
 * 6) Works Great Sonic256 17:41, 31 January 2007 (CST)

Unfavoured:
 * 1) While I'm all for dragon slash, the ginormous number of adrenaline skills (flail and lion's comfort, primarily) really hinder the elite. Non attack adrenaline skills do, indded, slow down the flow of damage. --Thom Bangalter 18:19, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * Uh, Flail actually accelerates the flow of damage. You may be right about Lion's Comfort -- how often are you using it? &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 18:29, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * There is absolutely no question that Flail increases overall damage output. BigAstro
 * It costing adrenaline means it's taking away from your pool. Frenzy, flurry, or tiger stance don't use up your pool. Probably getting overzealous on the unfavored part, but at the very least Lion's comfort really needs to go. --Thom Bangalter 03:10, 8 February 2007 (CST)

Non-attack adrenaline skills slow down flow of damage in adrenaline builds?
See subsection title for original question -- I've noticed that it seems possible to have "too many" adrenaline skills in a warrior build. This is not a problem when the adrenaline skills are attack skills, because while the attack skill hit causes your other skills to lose 1 strike of adrenaline, the hit recharges that adrenaline, so your flow of attack skills is uninterrupted. However, when you use non-attack adrenaline-based skills such as Lion's Comfort, Watch Yourself, etc, the resulting loss of adrenaline from using an adrenaline-based skill causes an interruption in the flow of the build and changes the pacing of damage output. Has anyone else noticed this? Am I crazy/weird? (Don't answer that last one.) --Eudas 17:09, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * Roughly less than a second for a hit under Flail? &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 18:08, 4 January 2007 (CST)

Stop breaking it.
Standing Slash was a good idea.

However...

WHY does this need to a be wammo?

WHY are you throwing away FGJ?

WHY are you completely changing around an already-tested build (when even Standing is enough to put it back into the "untested" category"?

Seriously, wth? &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 17:20, 29 December 2006 (CST)
 * Seriously, you tell me that if I wanted to, I could make the changes, and then you come and bite my head off for doing so. >.> &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 18:43, 2 January 2007 (CST)
 * Other than Standing Slash, the changes you made were bad. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 16:48, 3 January 2007 (CST)
 * I've been testing this build out, and I think it needs FGJ. The problem, i've found, with having too many adrenaline skills, is that when you use one of them, the others all require 1 hit to be charged again. This is fine when there's only a couple, but the more you have, I think it just slows things down. So, you've got the two stances, which are very good, especially in combination with "while stanced" equipment. That's one portion of the build. They feed adrenaline, which is good -- and so do the attack skills themselves. However, without FGJ, adrenaline gain becomes slower. Steady still, but slower. You call FGJ overkill, but honestly, with the FGJ version i find it harder to find targets that are still standing up than anything else -- they just melt away. Non-stop skill queueing for 20 seconds -- they dont even get time to glow orange, you can literally spam attack skills nonstop. I don't think that works as well with the Lions Comfort/non-FGJ version. The version that I'm using right now is: 12+1+3 sword, 12+1 str, 3 protection with enraging charge, flail, FGJ, standing slash, sun/moon slash, dragon slash, mending touch, and generic res. I'm testing it out, but to weigh in on one side or the other: i think FGJ has a place here, at least for a balanced PVE party. The Lions Comfort/Mending touch/non-FGJ version is better if you're playing with undependable monks perhaps, but if you can trust the monks to do their job... FGJ ftw. --Eudas 00:04, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * You trust other monks in PvE? =P And usually, monks are better off healing the party than having to worry about removing conditions from a warrior. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 00:06, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * So bring a condition remover for but not Lion's Comfort (not like you even need more condition remover in most areas). Having to use Lion's Comfort means that either your monk suck balls or you're too slow on the res, anyway. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 00:11, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * Here's the bottom line: if you have access to Nightfall skills, you have heroes. Therefore, you should never be without a half-decent monk. You can try to make every build idiot-teammate-proof or you can just assume that there will be at least one monk of hero quality or better on the team. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 00:15, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * Agreed -- my problem with W/N with Plague Touch is, when there's a Hero monk around, I never even get a chance to use the condition on the enemy. It's gone almost as soon as it appears. "But Telamon, why use Mending Touch instead of Lion's Comfort in the optional slot?", you ask -- just insurance that I can get rid of blindness and its cover condition when I need to. The monk's job, as has been pointed out, is to heal the party. This makes it so I don't have to wait on him to remove blindness to do my job -- killing people with extreme prejudice. --Eudas 00:20, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * (edit-conf) What's wrong with self-healing? I mean, it's only in every build we have. =P &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 00:16, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * Then dump the condition removal instead. Easy enough. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 00:19, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * We don't have condition removal right now. It's optional. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 00:22, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * And FGJ = optional. It's not actually core, imo. And put a note like "if you want overkill on adrenaline, take FGJ" or something. xD &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 00:32, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * You keep saying "overkill". Maxing out your capacity isn't overkill. It's... maxing out your capacity. You're got just enough adrenaline to chain attacks non-stop. Adding FGJ significantly increases your damage output and lets you chain together 30 hits in 20 seconds, with 10 of those hits getting the extra +40-ish armor-ignoring damage that Dragon Slash gives you. That's honestly better than Standing Slash. It's just that that added damage from Standing Slash was superior to a self-heal. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 00:52, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * Well, that's lots of gained adrenaline that's going to waste. And without FGJ, the only breaktimes were maybe one or two slashes between Sun and Moon Slash and Dragon Slash, but that was mostly because I kept spamming Flail every time it charged (rather than every 10 seconds). &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 00:54, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * How is it going to waste? You never explain this. With FGJ up, Dragon Slash is exactly enough to charge Sun and Moon, and firing Sun and Moon is just enough to charge DSlash up again. Where's the waste? &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 01:11, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * You're not exactly going to have "just the right adrenaline" to have your skills charged up all the time. If they are up all the time, it means that there is waste. Without FGJ, there isn't much of a huge difference, except that one or two hits between Sun and Moon Slash and DS (deja vu?), and DS, Standing Slash and Sun and Moon are constantly being charged immediately after Dragon Slash. I was playing around with it on Isle of the Nameless, and as I said, was spamming Flail needlessly, which would have made up a slash between attacks. In PvE, you're going to be attacked (you're a Warrior) which means that you'll gain quite a lot of adrenaline simply from taking damage; enough to make up for some lost Adrenaline from FGJ, and are already being charged constantly through your IAS, Enraging Charge, Dragon Slash, and simply taking damage (therefore, overkilling adrenaline often when you do take FGJ). It might help with keeping skills up, but it's definately not needed. Self-healing is a better choice, especially with, as you said, Hero monks, which often waste their energy healing the smallest of wounds. Core concept. PvE builds with self-healing. And no, it's not a "PvP build" because it has self-healing and condition removal. Lots of builds have that. Hell, I didn't even add Condition removal, since you seemed to be offended greatly by it. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 01:19, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * You have to lose 20-25% of your health just to get one single "strike" of adrenaline. The "core concept" is an uninterrupted chain of attack skills, with clean damage from repeatedly firing DS on top of physical damage from just hitting a lot. You just plain wanted to change that concept, and I stepped back from the build and let you do it. But, every time you comment, it's clear that you're still not really catching the point of what the old version was actually supposed to do. Which, in 90% of PvE encounters, is to power through the enemies' healers or offensive casters in the first 20 seconds of combat using an uninterrupted stream of attacks. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 01:34, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * I don't think the FGJ-less build you've constructed is bad, Rapta, but, honestly, I'd rather run something like Sever-Gash-Sun/Moon-DSlash at that point. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 02:34, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * 25% Health loss is fast, and isn't that much; your adrenaline will grow quite fast. The concept was simply fuelling your attacks and then using them, spamming them in fact. Most PvE encounters last well more than a minute, and I just don't believe that a build that isn't prepared for the long haul is a viable choice. 20 seconds is quite short, and you will have lost momentum anyways, so I wouldn't depend on a 20 second shout to give the brunt of my damage. Either way, IMO, it's not completely necessary. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 18:05, 4 January 2007 (CST)

Further changes
Before we vote on this again, it should be in a stable version. Rapta has suggested the following changes on my talk page:


 * Make it a wammo.


 * No "For Great Justice!".


 * Drop Enraging Charge for another attack.

I think the first one is pointlessly narrowing the build, the second one is ignoring the whole concept, and the third one has potential. Other thoughts? &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 03:00, 30 December 2006 (CST)

Getting some sort of self heal is a start... (Reedem@G-account 02:02, 1 January 2007 (CST))
 * Lion's Comfort is vastly superior to any other heal here. I suppose it could replace Enraging Charge in the standard build. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 02:21, 1 January 2007 (CST)
 * I'm going back on my Enraging Charge statement. It works excellent with Flail. Replace FGJ. 3 skills for adrenaline = no thanks. =P &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 14:30, 1 January 2007 (CST)
 * Suggested skill bar:


 * Whammo because since this build is so dependant on adrenaline, you need some sort of Condition Removal to make sure you hit. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 14:33, 1 January 2007 (CST)
 * Ah, but that's the beauty of Dragon Slash: it's not just an adrenaline-builder. Just like Enraging Charge isn't just an adrenaline-builder. FGJ gives you 20 seconds of three attacks every two seconds, with one of those attacks getting the +40 or so bonus that DSlash gives you. I can see how that might be worth giving up, but, frankly, I've gone hours without having to tap Lion's Comfort once, so I really wouldn't trade FGJ for Lion's Comfort. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 15:24, 1 January 2007 (CST)
 * Wasn't talking about Dragon Slash, although it is an adrenaline build as well, which would have given you four (half the skill bar) adrenaline builders, which is pretty much overkill - Flail (through IAS), Dragon Slash (+damage), FGJ, Enraging Charge (+cancel for Flail, speed boost). All of them except for FGJ are dual purpose, while FGJ isn't. So other than being overkill, it's not as useful than having FGJ as a primary Adrenaline builder. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 15:38, 1 January 2007 (CST)
 * That's looking more like a PvP build. In pretty much every PvE I've been in, a hard burst at the beginning to bring down one or two critical enemies is flat-out better than self-healing. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 23:55, 1 January 2007 (CST)
 * Self healing doesn't make something a PvP build. =P It just takes some pressure off of monks if you use it properly. Especially since it's not Healing Signet you're not in any serious danger when you use it. And monks usually focus on healing in PvE rather than condition removal. Last time I called "blind on 1" in PvE, Skuld told me to screw off. xD &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 01:24, 2 January 2007 (CST)
 * Well, does every single PvE warrior build really need to be Skuld-proof? &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 01:29, 2 January 2007 (CST)
 * Not too sure how to answer that... uhm... yes? =P &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 01:31, 2 January 2007 (CST)
 * So... you fixing it or can I just go ahead and make w/e changes? &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 13:35, 2 January 2007 (CST)
 * Honestly, your version is a really different build. For example, using Lion's Comfort means you don't have enough attributes to spread around for what goes into the Optional slot, so you're just using things like Mending Touch and Plague Touch. I've shoved everything from Stoneflesh Aura to Warmonger's Weapon in that slot, all of which require a decent attribute level. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 17:39, 2 January 2007 (CST)
 * It's not a very different build. It's the exact same build except less overkill on adrenaline and a good self-heal and a condition removal in the optional slot. Attributes got morphed somehow in the process; now it looks like that Dragon Sword build we already have vetted. Hurry, before the merge-mongers come! &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 18:38, 2 January 2007 (CST)
 * FGJ isn't adrenaline overkill. It gives you exactly enough adrenaline management to chain attacks without interruption. Most of the time, the IAS isn't acting as an adrenaline booster -- it's a way of just plain upping your overall damage output by shortening the gap between attacks. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 18:55, 2 January 2007 (CST)
 * It's an adrenaline booster and an IAS that increases your damage. Four adrenaline gaining skills, three are dual purpose, the one that isn't is your 10 energy FGJ. Tested it out, it just wasn't required to maintain a good DPS. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 18:59, 2 January 2007 (CST)
 * *shrug* You clearly really like your idea. I don't care about having mine published. So... meh, whatever, go ahead and make the changes if you feel strongly about it. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 19:38, 2 January 2007 (CST)
 * (Although, really, that could just be a different build.) &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 20:07, 2 January 2007 (CST)
 * How about this version? All I did was take out FGJ and put self-healing. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 00:05, 3 January 2007 (CST)
 * And IMO it should still be tested. All we did was reduce the overkill of adrenaline and added an attack. Nothing majorly significant. =P &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 00:08, 3 January 2007 (CST)
 * The combat rhythm is completely different, which makes it a different build. Note that putting in Tactics greatly reduces what other stuff you can run in that Optional slot. Make it Mending Touch if you want. If you want to keep it empty, I'd keep Distracting Blow and "Shields Up!" on the list as good candidates. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 00:32, 3 January 2007 (CST)
 * I'm cool with those canidates. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 00:36, 3 January 2007 (CST)
 * In that case wouldn't Plague Touch be better? Sure you don't get the self heal, but I reckon the condition transfer would be worth it, not to mention that PT recharges faster than Mending TOuch. --BeeD 18:38, 2 January 2007 (CST)
 * More energy to remove the same number of conditions, minus the self-heal. You don't want to be spamming it, just casting it and keep on attacking. If's fine for builds like the Quivering Blade build, since you want to daze your opponent. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 18:41, 2 January 2007 (CST)

Standing slash?
With all this discussion about taking out certain skills for a self-heal, why hasn't Standing Slash been mentioned? Given that the Sun and Moon Slash/Dragon Slash/"For Great Justice!" synergy forms the foundation of the build, and Flail and Enraging Charge also seem to have a good synergy, why not just take out the comparatively plain attack skill? 404notfound 00:34, 3 January 2007 (CST)
 * It's the first skill on the skill bar. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 00:35, 3 January 2007 (CST)
 * Er, okay...? Does that mean that it's not allowed to be considered for modification/removal? 404notfound 00:41, 3 January 2007 (CST)
 * Yes, it means that, because that was the reason it was brought to untested. It's pure pwnage when you're building up all that adrenaline and in a Stance. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 00:42, 3 January 2007 (CST)
 * You can look at Build:W/any Flailing Dragon/Archive 1 to see the old version, which did actually use only two attacks. That version slows down a bit too much when you're not under the effects of FGJ. Personally, I find the setup below to be far superior to carrying a self-heal around, but I don't care enough to push the issue:


 * The above template lets you, do this, for example (pretty awesome at tearing up enemies in PvE, but bring a Zealous weapon as a backup):


 * &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 01:04, 3 January 2007 (CST)
 * Warmonger's weapon in PvE? &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 00:38, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * Most PvE monster groups have just 1-2 healers. Shutting down that healer monster lets you bring it down very quickly and stops it from laying down party buffs like Aegis before it dies. Warmonger's Weapon is also invaluable against bosses, Terrorweb Dryders, and other hard-hitting things. That's quite worthwhile for a single skill slot. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 17:57, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * Worth the 15 Energy, long recharge, and the extra points? Terrorweb Dryders are easy to kill IMO, just take Distracting Blow/Savage Slash and interrupt MS. Their other skills aren't nearly as dangerous as MS. Meh, glad you found somewhat of a use for it though. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 18:07, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * Sorry. Replace "Terrorweb" with "Tortureweb". &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 18:10, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * Hero with Power Drain? &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 18:11, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * Recast on Searing Flames? &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 18:13, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * Searing Flames? &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 18:16, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * Wait, nvm, thinking of the wrong ones. &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 18:16, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * Meh, it's more or less based entirely on luck and your party's spammability of Prot Spirit and Shelter. 1/2 second cast is pretty hard to interrupt even with Warmongers, and I wouldn't depend on luck. But that's just me. =P &mdash; Rapta  [[image:Rapta_Icon1.gif|19px]] (talk|contribs) 18:17, 4 January 2007 (CST)

Meh.
Honestly, the current version works as written, but, if you're not gonna carry FGJ, you really should go Sever-Gash-Sun/Moon-Dragon for that juicy Deep Wound. That's just an opinion that I'm leaving up here for people looking for ideas on how to use DSlash in PvE. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 15:21, 17 January 2007 (CST)
 * Although, if you are gonna go for FGJ, Enduring Harmony really helps. Anyway, the FGJ-less version posted here works fine, too. The synergy between DSlash and Lion's Comfort is quite nice. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 18:09, 31 January 2007 (CST)

Koss / Goren
This build works really well on an Aggressive Warrior Hero. The exception is Enraging Charge, which must be either activated manually, or removed altogether in place of another skill of your choice. I am all for adding a few notes into the Article and make it a Hero-OK one :P &mdash; Poki#3, 09:49, 12 March 2007 (CDT)