Talk:Seeping Wound

this skill modifies Bleeding and Poison conditions. I didn't see it in the conditions list at all or any other Assasin skills that cause bleeding. I tried to figure out how to add those skills to the list, but that page is beyond my ability. I just want to bring it to the attention of those who know how and can. thanks for the great site :)

I nominate this for most useless elite skill in the Factions set. A tiny little conditional degen, for a short amount of time. What am I missing here? --Bishop (rap|con) 11:37, 6 May 2006 (CDT)

Well I've been wondering that myself. The only conclusion I can come to is that there are several skills in the Critical Strike/Dagger Mastery attributes of the assassin that require a hex to be effective or, in some cases, even work. Since one might only want to use these 2 attributes (the only ones with passive bonuses to attack power...), this elite would give those skills requiring a hex in order to be effective, a hex, in order to be effective. Now some might argue that the no attribute hex, Mark of Instability works fine. I would disagree simply because of its recharge time and the fact that it disappears whenever you use a dual attack. You can keep Seeping Wound on an enemy perpetually without too much trouble. Obviously this skill would be most useful with an A/R, A/W, or A/Mo because the other classes have good hexes that don't use up your elite spot. [Wingflier]
 * Does this skill add and additonal 1..3 degen or just make the degen 1..3, because if it doesnt ADD and ADDITONAL it is counter-productive, as poison is 4 degen. Renegade of Funk 10:17, 12 May 2006 (CDT)


 * It is additional I believe-Only a Shadow


 * Seeping Wound isn't the "most useless elite skill". That's Wastrel's Collapse. But I agree whit the fact that's it's totally useless. WHY isn't this LAME??? -1...3 isn't far enough to waste an elite slot. Maybe they can make it to stack on both conditions, or make it for all conditions, or add some damage. Maybe reduce the recharge time? 213.84.52.71 13:52, 1 March 2007 (CST)

About time:

Tycn 00:04, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Ouch! Owned by mending... --GodofJur 00:55, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Rofl, lmao. Readem (talk *contribs ) 14:32, 31 May 2007 (CDT)

Not useless
Actually I've built an entire build around this skill. A/R opening with Apply Poison and this, with Twisting Fangs as the dual attack. It stacks to 10 degen unless its healed. Black Mantis Thrust and Jungle Strike work well in this combo. Obviously thats 5 skills and a majority of the bar so staying alive becomes a problem, but its managable.


 * I second this. My A/R's build is based almost entirely on combining Marksmanship, Critical Strikes and Shadow Arts, and it relies heavily on Sharpen Daggers.  Those added 4 pips of degen are quite useful. HopefulNebula 19:58, 8 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Thirded. This hex is short on recharge, cheap on energy cost, stacks excellently with Jagged Strike and Twisting Fangs, helps to fulfill strikes with on-hexed conditions, and doesn't require a separate investment of attribute points in another line just for one skill - your Crit Strikes should be high enough anyway if you're a dagger sin. Definitely deserves to be an elite. Kessel 10:58, 13 June 2006 (CDT)


 * If you're going to use an A/R why not use Lacerate and get -8 or -9 degen with a single application of bleeding? --DaveK 00:05, 11 July 2006 (GMT)


 * Because spirits are global, which means that all the enemy team's sword warriors and dagger assassins get the full benefit, too. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 19:24, 10 July 2006 (CDT) )


 * Compare this to Vile Miasma which is non elite, but seems better in many ways, additional damage at the beggining makes up for the energy, the degen is on the same scale, yet it is non elite, and triggers on ALL conditions. True it may not be a useless skill, but there are MUCH better elites out there.


 * Vile Miasma is a necromancer skill, and would require a whole other line of attribute investing. Still... Asmodeus 11:27, 26 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Vile is expensive and long to recharge. An A/R bowman using Deadly Paradox, Apply Poison, and this skill could effectively spread -8 degen around an entire team pretty quickly.  As quick as, if not quicker, than a N/Me.  If he uses Hunter's Shot or Screaming Shot he/she could spread -10 degen to some targets too.--[[image:Windjammer Icon1.jpg|12px]] Windjammer 03:05, 31 January 2007 (CST)


 * There are Assassin skills that cause bleeding, and with the addition of Black Spider Strike, there's your Poison source as well. A fantastic chain I use (but I cannot take credit for) is Seeping Wound, Black Spider Strike, Twisting Fangs, Black Lotus Strike, Death Blossom. Massive Degen AND a good amount of damage (usually around 200, armour and defensive skills permitting). People always overlook skills like this, which ends up being their downfall. Cyanide Killer 06:51, 4 December 2006 (CST)
 * Still, 3 degeneration isn't worth an elite slot. Olmec 08:29, 4 February 2007 (CST)
 * I use this skill with 13 points on Critical and I get -4 degen add that to Black Spider Strike and Twisting Fangs, the health on foes drop pretty quick. Mainly I use this in AB though.  TriceBattle

combine this with Black Spider Strike and jagged strike to apply a 10 heath degenartion and still keep doing lots of dmg with death blossom and dagger strikes. in PVP this skill can do wonders.

lame tag should be removed, those ppl who say this is lame should try this skill out sometime... ^^^^^^^^is right, you can get some awesome builds going

Sadly enough, imagination does not equal effectiveness. Not much point applying a few extra degen when you can take someone out in seconds using a different elite. Tycn 03:56, 16 June 2007 (CDT)

It is quite lame IMHO. ANet should at least increase the degen and decrease the duration. If this hex lasts its full duration, the Assa applying it has made a mistake anyway, by failing to kill his target within a couple of seconds. --Roland of Gilead (talk) 07:07, 13 July 2007 (CDT)

Yeah it should be something like For 5 seconds, if target foe is suffering from Bleeding or Poison, that foe suffers -5...15 Health degeneration. 15:45, 1 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Except that it would be pretty much completely useless in that case because degen is capped at -10, so at 12 crit strikes that would be 8 degen over the cap that is completely worthless (counting bleeding degen) --Gimmethegepgun 15:52, 1 August 2007 (CDT)
 * That would make for a perfect counter to the E/D Mystic Regens that tank in some PvP locations which will here-in remain nameless.... 75.62.114.31 15:19, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah but with higher degen it would be more consistant if either bleeding or poison is removed, and it would counter health regeneration. --[[Image:Roland_icon.png]]Roland of Gilead (talk) 02:35, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Including Mending! That why I love this skill, it renders echo menders USELESS OH NOES!!! Flechette 02:59, 23 August 2007 (CDT)

I just looked at the LAME section and I feel Enraged that this is LAME'ed. In PvP i've seen quite a few sins use this, I do use it too. With seeping you can pull off two attacks, black spider strike followed by twisting fangs to ensure the person will die if not attended to. Seeping wound if used properly can be more pressuring than a burning arrow build, it has max degen for alot longer if you use a poisonious/barbed weapon mod(Dragon fangs or Shredder's are good). People have missed the fact that if your foe has mending it will null or add a slight degen to it, and the fact it doesn't provide degen itself but has to be used in conjuction with poison or bleeding. Whoever called it LAME doesn't play Sins enough know the human psyche. If a human has 10 degen the first thing he'll do is A) as a monk/person with condition removal attempt to remove the condition in which he'll be dead as the sin will lay down a dual attack by now or B) Run. Whoever has thought of this to be LAME Fails. Its a much better alt to a Shadow Prison build. It can kill by pure degen, panics the foe,pressures the foe, low recharge, low cost and lasts longer. The people above who know who they are obviously have used a sin. Flechette 05:09, 4 August 2007 (CDT)


 * Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I don't mind others sharing theirs, as long as they do so in a way that respects the integrity of others. Pretentious, snotty comments such as yours may purport to be "constructive criticism" with examples of skill comparisons and such, but really they are just thinly veiled personal attacks at others...I mean, how else could you get away with saying someone "Fails" and (paraphrasing) "has never used a sin"? GW:YAV, GW:NPA...
 * In response to your actual arguments, quantity doesn't make quality. Just because you see "quite a few sis use this" doesn't mean it is a good skill. Considering that it is one of the easiest and earliest skill captures for Assassins, I am not at all surprised to see it in usage by many. Moreover, I feel that you missed an important point: Seeping Wound is an elite Hex with a meh effect. If you're justifying its use merely through the fact that you can pull off the "Black" attack line, I'll counter by saying that you're just wasting your Elite. Siphon Speed at rank 4 is useful as a snare, costs the same amount of Energy, lasts long enough for a full chain, and isn't Elite.
 * More pressure than Burning Arrow? Are you serious? A single usage of Burning Arrow at Marksmanship 14 or more is more than 50 damage from Burning, in under 5 seconds...not to mention the generous bonus damage. To compare, Seeping Wound won't even do anything on its own...and when it does activate, it takes more than 10 seconds to get the same amount of damage through degen. Jagged Strike does no additional damage, Twisting Fangs' bonus damage is equal to Burning Arrow, the other "Black" skills all deal less than Burning Arrow...Now, you can argue that it is the combination of these various skills that makes Seeping Wound stronger. However, considering that you need at least two skills to even break even with the pressure of Burning Arrow, I think that argument is bogus. I haven't even discussed the skill combinations other than just Burning Arrow that you find in a BA Pressure build...
 * Max degen over time...meh. It's nice pressure on a single target. But, can your Seeping Wound build quickly spread max degen around to several targets? No, it can't. Especially if they kite. I am aware that Burning Arrow only reaches max degen for 4-second intervals. But, the beauty of Burning Arrow is that it is so easy to just switch targets and apply more degen and raw damage. The Assassin has to get into at least spellcasting range for a long-recharging Shadow Step, and even the fastest recharging Shadow Step recharges slower than BA. Rangers can also use Barbed and Poisonous Bowstrings, anyways, so I find that point to be kind of moot.
 * The Mending part was a joke. No one who uses Mending in PvP...well...I won't get there. We're talking Sins here, not Wammos. But in any case - why both nullifying Health regeneration and putting out max degen, when you can instead deal consistent raw damage (Moebius Strike), disable casters (Golden Skull Strike, Temple Strike), or shatter protections (Assault Enchantments, Shattering Assault)? There are just so many better ways to use your Elite than this.
 * Oh, and for the record, I didn't add the tag. I'm a third party. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 06:21, 4 August 2007 (CDT)

Okay. Prehaps i've been throughly beaten but without some reason left. Starting from the top ignoring my 'snotty comments' which I will accept, I usually use it as PvP only character, having unlocked nearly all of the assassin elites and therefore cannot of unlocked early in the Factions campaign. Siphon speed is a good hex to start it off but it comes from the deadly arts list, has half range and therefore the foe (likely to be a caster) will have used some sort of pre-emptive skill in the foresight of the sin casting something at half range. Seeping, however is a full range skill and if the target isn't wary, he can then use a shadow stepping skill(shadow walk which is not too long with cancel-stance dash) to engage him. Most sins use black lotus and black spider but black mantis strike followed by jungle strike can do very satisfying damage compared to the others, which however you say and i agree,cannot beat BA in one hit,but will do more damage than a usual "black chain" that excludes black mantis. Black mantis --> Jungle strike --> Horns of the Ox --> Falling Spider --> Twisting Fangs is what i do. By the time that chain ends, they are nearly dead or are not, if anything if they (the sin) are getting priority wrong and are not aiming for the healer/healer spot person of the foe and his nearby allies. If all goes right, they cannot kite due to the always inflicted black mantis strike and can chase them down with dash if needed to. (the acute here will notice dash will cancel shadow walk. If anywhere to run the foe will run into where you shadow-stepped him in the first place as i should think a sin should never approach a enemy from the front but rather from behind or the flanks.) If they are removing it, simply continue the chain or use twisting fangs if they are adja to a ally and abandon the chain and choose another target. With the comparision between ranger and a assassin, if it's not going well, he can change targets just as simple by using dash to cancel shadow walk, use a common skill like feigned and approach either a new enemy or the same one from another direction while using allies as a front for distraction and stalling. As for the other elites, while they are all good choices, the way i was referring to seeping as a elite, it may difficult to fit the exact purpose as I had in mine and the fact I was trying to fit in that it could be used as a shadow prison/burning arrow effect like build. The bottom line is, if i've ranted wrongly, I sincerely regret anything I have said in a bias'd way. Btw off the book, I know about the mending joke, I've been playing guild wars ever since the betas and is kind of set in my ways and have realized that you've set up the scene (the LAME section) and have let others do the scene investigation and everything may not be a direct view from you. Flechette 07:29, 5 August 2007 (CDT)
 * The problem with the skill lies in the fact that it causes degen, and only conditionally. Since degen has a cap, others have suggested changing the degen to actual damage, allowing more degen stacking. And until NF, the only reliable skill to use with it was Jagged Strike, otherwise you wasted your elite. As it is, the skill is strong enough to be elite, but as Entropy pointed out, the effect is meh, since Assassins have better elites elsewhere, whether being more interesting or more powerful. --Kale Ironfist 10:43, 5 August 2007 (CDT)

Wording Question
If the condition expires before Seeping Wound does, does the extra degen remain for the duration of the hex, or is it removed with the end of the condition? HopefulNebula 19:59, 8 June 2006 (CDT)
 * I would assume it's like Lacerate. That is, the extra degen ends if the condition ends. --Theeth (talk)   20:10, 8 June 2006 (CDT)
 * does this stack? if a target is both poisoned and bleeding, is that 2-6 degen? the wording would indicate otherwise. someone with an assassin and apply poison should go try this on the student of bleeding.--Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 01:26, 17 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Wording doesn't seem to support this. It says that IF target suffers from poison OR bleeding...
 * Nope, it doesn't stack. Leeroythefeared 09:51, 15 July 2007 (CDT)

Can this hex be applied before poison or bleeding, and then add on the 1-3 once either one is applied?-Azroth 16:49, 8 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Yes, that's how it works, --Theeth (talk)   17:26, 8 September 2006 (CDT)

Hmmm
Devastating won't be the word i'd link to 10 degen and DW, esp seeing the comment states it is already devastating after using ONLY BSP and TF >< 84.24.206.123 10:35, 22 August 2007 (CDT)

But the thing is, it can make high degen with just bleeding and it will counter regen.

You don't have to always use black spider strike. I've always hated the way it was so common in shadow prison. Twisting Fangs is somewhat very common so I would like to see more deep wound dagger attacks in future.*counts every second till GWEN* Flechette 01:11, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
 * You could use Parasitic Bond instead. Then you could replace Jungle Strike with Palm Strike. A.Saturnus 07:21, 13 September 2007 (CDT)

Icon
What is the icon depicting? Lost-Blue 02:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Some person falling into some disgusting quicksand-like liquid is my best guess :) -- Shadow  crest   02:25, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * He's going for a high five! --> [[Image:Seeping Wound.jpg]][[Image:Blessed Aura.jpg]]--[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 02:26, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * He looks like one of the exhibits at BodyWorks. Where they take dead bodies and do stuff so we can "learn". He looks like the one where they took out everything out of the body but the veins and arteries. Lost-Blue 02:30, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Nah, he's a wax figure that's been sitting in the sun too long --Gimmethegepgun 02:31, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * IDK how to tkae the picture but I zoomed in on it and its a bald guy lieing down with something such as a vine or a rope entangling and sqeezing his body and going around for another loop around his arm. IF you look careful thats what the little cricles are. At least that is my opnion from what I saw. Lost-Blue 02:36, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Wrong! Decide for yourselves :)

-- Lann 17:38, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * We really should upload a high-resolution version of all the icons --Gimmethegepgun 17:54, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * How do you get it like that? :p--Diddy Bow 18:34, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Blow it up. RT | Talk - The Whacking editor 18:35, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * You can dl packs of those pics at guildwars.com, iirc. And no, you don't blow em up with TNT --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (s)talkpage 18:36, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I lolled, your in a better mood viper! RT | Talk - The Whacking editor 18:37, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yup i got the pack but i still cant make out the guys face :p.--Diddy Bow 18:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Enlarge with paint or photoshop or gimp &ect RT | Talk - The Whacking editor
 * Thats the prblem it just turns out horrid quality :(--Diddy Bow


 * Because the ig pic's aren't as high in quality as those download packs. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (s)talkpage 18:54, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Well i got the icon from here http://www.guildwars.com/community/fansites/kit/skillicons.php, is it just the wrong place?--Diddy Bow 18:56, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I think that is the correct place, but you shouldn't trust me on that! --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (s)talkpage 18:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * If thats it then i dunno what im doing wrong :(.--Diddy Bow 19:08, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * GAA!. WHY DON'T YOU FRICKEN CHECK THE USER WHO UPLOADED THEM USERPAGE. (yes the link is on my userpage). Twats. --[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] Lann 20:04, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * No personal attacks, please don't insult people for no reasons.--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png]]El_Nazgir 16:14, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I guess you did not get the joke, but ok.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] Lann 16:27, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

To make this skill viable
-- Taki Fujiko  14:43, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry to sound stupid - but isn't that exactly the same as it currently? [[Image:Jamster Sig.jpg|19px]] ---Jamster--- 16:36, 29 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Hmm "For 5...17 seconds, if target foe is suffering from Bleeding or Poison, that foe suffers -1...3 Health degeneration."


 * "For 5...17 seconds, if target foe is suffering from Bleeding or Poison, that foe loses 2...6 Health every second"


 * Well..duration is the same, since health degen is per half second then -1 health degen =2 health lost per second and -3 health degen =6 health lost per second...so yes, it looks exactly the same as it is currently to me too :-) --Cobalt </B>| <font color="Green">Talk</B>  17:52, 29 February 2008 (UTC)


 * It stacks over 10 degen this way.--[[Image:Takisig.jpg]] Taki Fujiko  23:13, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It'd be better. It'd still be terrible though. Lord of all tyria 23:18, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It could justify it being an elite, since 14 degen might be fun at high critical strikes, it stacks with mesmer hex degen, condition degen etc. As it is now, it truly is LAME. --[[Image:Takisig.jpg]] Taki Fujiko  23:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No-one would run it. Seriously. Lord of all tyria 12:46, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
 * That's no argument to NOT buff it. Seriously. O_o (And I would, I'd find some build to give effective 14 degen xD) --[[Image:Takisig.jpg]] Taki Fujiko  14:48, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think that realisticaly this skill will ever get buffed, its just another useless elite like Stone Sheath, Balthazar's Pendulum or Ray of Judgement that Anet will never do anything to improve. I think these kind of skills are mainly designed to be used by monsters against the player. They can hinder players slightly without making the game too difficult, the only reason they aren't monster only seems to be so Anet can say theres more skills in the game in their PR....and to count towards skill hunter ;)--<font color="Blue">Cobalt </B>| <font color="Green">Talk</B>  15:22, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

imo there should be 'target foe suffer 1..3 degen plus 1..3 degen if suffering from bleeding or poison'

or maybe ' target cannot block and suffer 1..3 degen if suffering from bleeding or poison'

why not a kinda fragility?'for X s, whenever target foe is applied or released from bleeding/poison/deep wound that foe take an additionnal 10..50 dmg' ??

guigolum 15:56, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Seeping Wound: Hex- 5e 3/4 8 recharge For 5...19 seconds if target is bleeding or posioned that foe suffers -1...3 health degeneration. If that foe gains a deep wound while this hex is active that foe loses 15...50 health. Lost-Blue 16:19, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Clever, I like it. Zulu Inuoe 16:57, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm, how about "Hex spell, for 5...23 seconds, target foe has -1...2 health degeneration and if that foe has more than 4 conditions, he takes 20...60 damage and this hex ends
 * Yea right, add some more spike damage spike for Black Mantis, Black Spider, Twisting Fangs and Toxic Shock combo... Imo it should cause double the additional degen if target is both poisoned and bleeding. J Striker 05:49, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I like the idea of the blocking part.. 5..17 seconds if target foe is suffering from bleeding or poison he suffers -1..3 degen and cannot block you'r attacks.. That would make it realy good. 193.91.164.176 00:54, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

It has elite status. Why?
I don't see how you can miss this here. It has a short recharge, longer than recharge duration, and most importantly- ITS LINKED TO CRITICAL STRIKES. You don't have to invest in deadly arts to use it. Gorbachev116 03:20, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * It also causes -4 degeneration at best. Which can be countered by Mending. There are much better elites that this to use, and not all of them are in deadly arts. --<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="Steelblue">Shadowcrest  02:23, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Name a better hex to use? None of the non-elite ones compare with duration and recharge, except for a few that are worthless at best. This is one of the few that doesn't require the foe to do something. This one doesn't.Gorbachev116 00:32, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd take Enduring Toxin, Scorpion Wire, Shameful Fear, Mirrored Stance, or if I wasn't using my elite, Hidden Caltrops, Mark of Insecurity, or Siphon Strength. And that's assuming I can't use my secondary prof; I'd take Parasitic Bond with 0 curses over this. --<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="Steelblue">Shadowcrest  00:39, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
 * And just think: With 0 Curses, PBond has 1⁄4 the total damage of this piece of crap at 15 Critical Strikes, doesn't use up your elite, isn't conditional, AND heals you at the end! --Gimmethegepgun 00:42, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, Parasitic Bond can be cast 4 times before seeping wound recharges, though that does cost more and needs more targets. <font color=#555>Ezekiel <font color=#AAA> [Talk]  08:06, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Enduring toxin lasts 5 whole seconds. Scorpion Wire has half casting range, Shameful fear requires the foe to move, Mirrored Stance has a 15 second recharge, Hidden Caltrops again requires the enemy to move, Mark Of Insecurity isn't that great. Many enchantments are spammable, and many people bring more than 1 stance. Siphon Strength is pointless against casters, and costs 10 energy. What you seem to be missing is none of the hexes are linked to critical strikes. Maybe I do not want to have to put superior runes on to get more attributes, Maybe I don't want to use critical strikes or deadly arts for a half decent hex. I really don't care about what you would take-what is being discussed is why it is elite.Gorbachev116 19:55, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Firstly, read Shameful Fear and Hidden Caltrops again. Neither require the foe to do anything, they'll still be hexed regardless of what they do. Shameful and H. Caltrops also last as long/longer than their recharge without any points in their attributes, and H. Caltrops is in Shadow arts, which some people take over D. Arts. Scorpion wire- if you're not bring deadly arts, you're almost certainly going to me with melee range- so half cast range isn't much of a detriment. If you're only bringing this skill for a hex and you're not using your secondary, Price of Pride, Fragility, Illusion of Pain, Images of Remorse, Shrinking Armor, Ether Phantom, Life Siphon, Barbs, Defile Defenses, Malaise, Shadow of Fear, Ulcerous Lungs, and especially Parasitic Bond and Mind Wrack fill those requirements without using your elite. If you don't care about losing an elite, Soul Bind, Icy Veins, and Reaper's Mark will all work. All of these work with no/minimal attribute expense. Some of these are practical, some are not. You get the same damage out of bleeding and more damage out of poison than this skill can deal, and it requires one of those to do anything. To make this on par with everything else you either need to strip this skill's elite status or make everything that applies poison or bleeding elite. --<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="Steelblue">Shadowcrest 20:25, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
 * In short, this skill sucks. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 20:26, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Irrelevant, for their bonus conditions you need the foe to do something. Thats the only reason why you would use sin hexes anyway, because of their bonus. Half casting is a huge detrimant as well. Typically the assassin wins if he can get his combo off as quickly as possible. By the time he is casting, he is already KD'd and its GG. But that is the thing, I am bringing this hex because of its bonus: it is linked to crit strikes which would be high anyway, and has manageable RT and energy. But does this not add degen + the poison? Thats a huge amount of degeneration with 2 skills. Plus it is linked to crit strikes, and finally it helps work with several skills. I guess it could use a buff, but I can still see why it is an elite skill-it is linked to crit strikes. Gorbachev116 23:09, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The thing is that this is outclassed by simple conditions. Most of which don't take an elite to apply. Apply Poison can easily spread -4 to an entire team, SF/Rodgort's can give -7 to an area, Rotting Flesh can give -4 to an entire team, even simple bleeding skills like Sever Artery or Jagged Strike outclass this because they're not elite and at least they deal attack damage. Being linked to critical strikes is not enough of an excuse to label this an elite imo. --<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="Steelblue">Shadowcrest 23:16, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Right. I can see why it is elite, but it could use alittle buf Gorbachev116 00:12, 1 April 2008 (UTC)


 * IMO, it's a good skill. In fact, I usually use it on my sin as a prep for Black Spider, and some nasty spikes.  However, I do think the elite status is a bit of a stretch.  At this point, the main advantage in its elite status is that it is a low-priority hex re: removal.  If Backfire was used as a prep hex, it'd be removed right away and leave any Black chain skills out to dry. ;] [[Image:Maui_sig.png]] 00:18, 1 April 2008 (UTC)