Talk:Range

Where did the numbers of this article come from?
Melee can hit up to barely the inside of the second layer of concentric circles. There is no way that is only 1/80th of the longbow range. I can believe touch is 2ft, but not melee.

Additionally, this article is entirely inconsistent with Bow, at a ratio of approximately 3/4.

Thus I would very much like to find out where the numbers used for this article come from. -PanSola 09:56, 13 February 2006 (CST)


 * Well, I foudn the numbers on the website, but also found blatant inconsistency in the numbers. Removed all feet measurements, substituted with some radius measurements that are more meaningful. -PanSola 22:13, 17 February 2006 (CST)


 * The numbers were taken from the offical website! I'll dig up the link again if you give me a minute. I hope I find it, since ANet have restructured their site. The numbers can be found in the Prima Guide too, consistent with www.guildwars.com. -- 22:32, 17 February 2006 (CST)


 * Dammit, I can't find it any more. It was in the Online Manual, in the Glossary. -- 22:38, 17 February 2006 (CST)


 * Ha! It's still there, just not linked to from the main page any more. But Google still has it listed: -- 22:40, 17 February 2006 (CST)
 * Um, that was NOT the source of the info I deleted... The numbers that I removed came from here. -PanSola 22:45, 17 February 2006 (CST)
 * I know the numbers can be found in the website. It's still there. BUT I also know the info is wrong.  Go to Nameless Isle and test the ratio of Melee range vs "Adjacent".  -PanSola 22:42, 17 February 2006 (CST)

Ok, I've found the range info on Prima Guide (cept I don't see nature ritual range) AND IT IS WRONG!
 * "Adjacent" range is NOT more 6.5 times greater than Melee and Touch range
 * Flatbow range is NOT shorter than Shortbow
 * Shortbow range is NOT significantly longer than aggro circle

While the ratio between adjacent, nearby, and "in the location" is correct, you need to give me a very good reason to believe those feet measurements.

What does a "feet" mean in the game? In the Real World, "feet" and "hands" are used in some cultures as common measurement because it is something they can easily compare by (adults of the same ethnicity have a relatively consistent foot/hand size). In GuildWars land, you can't directly measure things by feet. Things that easily measured are with respect to aggro circle and radar. After that is the Isle of the Nameless testing radius. That is why I picked them for the basis of my measurements. -PanSola 22:58, 17 February 2006 (CST)


 * The numbers are given in an official document by ANet. That's a pretty good reason to list 'em. If we find that these numbers are wrong, we should state so.
 * However, I agree that a "feet" doesn't mean much in the game. But the "testing circle" doesn't mean much either. Yes, it is in the game, but as soon as you can't see it any more you have nothing to compare the numbers against. The best thing to compare everything against is the aggro circle, because that's what everybody has on screen at all time. I'd suggest that we convert the list into a table and list the various values side by side, for comparison. -- 23:44, 17 February 2006 (CST)


 * I just checked Image:Area of Effect Birdseye.JPG again. There seesm to be a difference between "adjacent" and "adjacent to foe". This is most confusing. I assume 1 testing circle is equivalent to 13 feet. I'll check the numbers again tonight when I'm at home. -- 00:04, 18 February 2006 (CST)


 * Yes it is confusing. If you use a skill that affects "foes adjacent to target foe", then I expect the ones two radius away will not be affected, even though from the perspect of your target, two radius is "adjacent" range.  Anet really should've come up with a different naming convention. -PanSola 00:27, 18 February 2006 (CST)


 * Isn't the concept really simple? While I do now exactly know the range, this seems to be clear: "adjacent" means standing right next (adjacent) to you, and "adjacent to foe" means standing right next (adjacent) to your target, the foe.


 * BTW, even if the "1 testing circie to 13 feet" works out, I am still against using Feet as a basis of measurement in the GW world. There have been "measurments" that are popularily wide spread among fansites, that say shortbow are 60 feet, long bow 100feet, and even our own Bow article adapts that. But if you go by the 1 testing circle = 13 feet, then most likely the shortbow range will work out to be in the 80s, which means we will have to make a note, in every article that uses feet as measurement, that our feet has a different length than the feet on many (probably most) other fansites.  Add to the consideration that "feet" really doesn't convey much info in GW world, my stance remains to avoid using it at all. -PanSola 00:31, 18 February 2006 (CST)

Testing images
vs

Official measurement
According to the booklet which came with my copy of factions: Aggro range 88 feet, spell range 88 feet, flat bow range 88 feet, long bow range more than 88 feet, touch range 2 feet, adjacent range 13 feet, shout range 40 feet. (Is flat bow range really less than long bow range?) --Gem 04:39, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Um, "long bow range more than 88 feet" is not very reassuring. Additoinally, touch range 2 ft vs adjacent range 13 ft is definitely untrue (at least when I made that big picture several weeks ago, they could've changed the touch range since but I doubt it).  You can test whether touch range differs from melee range easily on the Nameless Isle.  This looks like the same mis-information from the Website. -PanSola 04:40, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
 * These nubers match the original ones posted. The ones listed originally but missed now are: Nature Ritual range 200ft, long bow range 167 feet, in the area range 26 feet, nearby range 20 feet. I don't know if they are correct, thats just what they say. --Gem [[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 04:45, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Just retested [Blackout]], a touch skill. It definitely has at least 2 testing circle radius range, which makes the claim that it is 2 feet range questionable.  I am also fairly certain that the flat bow can shoot quite some distance outside the aggro circle.  -PanSola 04:49, 1 May 2006 (CDT)
 * I think the people who write the manual are not the ones who put this stuff in the game. Maby this info is copied from the original source, which was outdated due to changes made to the game? --Gem [[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 05:21, 1 May 2006 (CDT)

Pan, you added one measurement in feet a few weeks ago. But looking at the history, you long ago intentionally removed all foot measurements. I just removed your last edit, but I'm kind of confused. I don't think it should be there, but do you have a reason for it? --68.142.14.33 02:46, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * The 100 ft = recurve bow range is the only singluar measurement we know to be exact and accurate, thanks to scorpion wire. All other feet measurements are from non-reliable sources. - 03:19, 14 July 2006 (CDT)
 * If there's only one distance we can say is accurate, it's not very useful. Rather than note here what 100' is, just in Scorpion Wire would be best.  (Unless we start estimating other things in feet.) --68.142.14.33 03:21, 14 July 2006 (CDT)

Inaccuracies
Ok, after extensive testing I've determined that a lot of the info on this page is slightly off. I'll start from the smallest and move up to the largest
 * Shout range was omitted from the article (even though it's in one of the diagrams). This is 6 testing circles, most easicly confirmed using the dummies and ViM.  Shout range also uses "in the area" for its description, so I clarified this in the spell "in the area" description as well
 * Shortbow range is almost exactly aggro radius, perhaps one or two feet shorter. If you are on dead flat ground (which is important, as even minor elevations effect the bow range), it is impossible not to aggro a mob.  An elevation in the range of as little as 1-2 feet will allow you to fire and not aggro, which means that the range is not too much less. I'd personally put it at 80feet.
 * Spells have the same range as recurve/horn/wand/staff. It is important when testing this to make sure the terrain is dead level, but besides that, is easy to confirm.  A  guild scrim is the best place for this, as there's lots of large level places.  It's also important to note that the pathing engine will generally take you about 10 feet inside the max range of an action, so you've got to manually move to the max possible range.
 * Spells/recurve etc are 1.2 times the range of a shortbow. The ratio was calculated using chained wards + heal areas.
 * Long/Flatbow is 1.35 times the range of a shortbow, achieved using the methods above.
 * Spirit range was listed slightly larger than what it is. It is almost exactly shortbow+longbow range.  To test this (again in a flat spot), get the the max shortbow range for a target, drop a spirit, then run directly opposite the target.  Max longbow rage from the other side will be the same spot that the spirits range ends.  This was double checked with wards.  This range is also exactly half selection range.  To test this, get a teammate to drop a spirit, get to the edge of its range, drop another spirt, then go to its edge (in a straight line).  The edge of the second spirits range will exactly coincide with Heal Party range.--Pharalon 21:33, 16 June 2006 (CDT)
 * I restored Phalaron's edit. Some of the changes I'm sure are correct (like shortbow, spell, and shout) and others like ratio of longbow and spirits to the aggro circle seem fine.  --68.142.14.34 23:40, 16 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Thanks for the tests. Prior to Factions, I was extremely vocally against the use of Feet as an in-game measurement unit.  There seemed to be two very different canons floating on the the various fansites, and the one on the GuildWars website is inconsistent with itself.  Now however we have Scorpion Wire (the only single reference to the Feet unit), but personally I still feel distances measured with on the radar or with respect to testing circles are more meaningful. - 03:09, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * For a long time Well of Power said 39'. I think even if everything were in "feet" I'd still prefer something like the aggro circle or testing circles as bases of reference.  --68.142.13.99 03:29, 17 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Lots of stuff used to be listed in feet. Wells, wards, shouts, nature rituals, and probably a few more that I'm forgetting, so it's logical to assume that feet/inches are your basic ingame unit. The only real advantage to using them is when you start describing things like speed.  You can say that a shortbow's arrows travel at 150 feet per second, and base character movement is 24 feet per second.  Testing circles per second doesn't really roll off the tongue :).  If people understand what an in-game foot is, it also makes it a lot easier to describe equations for damage and range bonuses due to elevation, which really only work if you're putting feet/inches into them.--Pharalon 20:49, 17 June 2006 (CDT)
 * What is worth remembering, is that lots of stuff used to be (and many continute to be) listed incorrectly in feet. This problem even plagues guildwiki.  One of the classic error is the "Shortbow = 60ft / Recurve = 80ft / Longbow = 100ft".  I just checked the guru, and their range info is also messed up.  If I believe what 55 ft is from Guru, and I read on guildwiki that something travels x feet per second, everything will be extremely wrong.  There has been no standerd of how much a foot is prior to the release of Factions.  And even now that Factions is released, incorrect info is floating everywhere.  "If people understand what an in-game foot is" is going to remain a very big IF for quite some time. - 03:05, 21 June 2006 (CDT)

Earshot
Looks like shout ranges are now described as "within earshot" in skill descriptions. (I only noticed after Heach changed "Shields Up!".) --68.142.14.33 02:32, 14 July 2006 (CDT)


 * The newest update notes state:


 * Adjacent: Melee attack range.
 * Nearby: One and a half times Adjacent range.
 * In the Area: Two times Adjacent range.
 * Within Earshot: Three times Adjacent range.
 * Range experts might want to confirm/whatever. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 12:57, 22 July 2006 (CDT)
 * It matches the information we already have in the article (which uses circles from the isle as a unit). --68.142.14.19 23:35, 22 July 2006 (CDT)

From the history of nearby
Before I redirected it to range, it contained:
 * For offensive spells (like Chain Lightning and Chaos Storm), this can be determined by the red dots of the enemy on the mini-map. If two enemy red dots do not touch, then they cannot be affected by the same AoE spell.

Seems true, but doesn't fit into the way ranges are presented here (whether before I turned it into a table or not). Someone add it in if they can in a non-awkward manner. --68.142.14.19 08:27, 24 July 2006 (CDT)

Preview Event Earshot
The Update Page says that it was not reverted, whle this page says it has been, confusion here. Which is correct?Just Frag Me 15:54, 26 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I don't know about this very moment, but I added the note to the update article after verifying in game. I can't test again right now.  It's easy to do on the isle of the nameless and to the limit.  --Fyren 15:57, 26 September 2006 (CDT)

Minions and monster skills
A simple (perhaps dumb) question, what is the actual range of bone fiends for example? or ranged monster skills for that matter. I heard/read previously somewhere (but i can't figure where :doh:) that spirit attack did use the shortbow range, any infirmation or confirmation?. --Leonim 05:45, 29 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Spell range for minion spells. If there isn't a corpse in range, it tells you invalid target.  Monster skills would probably be spell, besides attacks, and there might be some touch ones that I don't know about.  Don't know about spirit attack range, but it's definitely at least longbow range.  I don't know how to test if it's longer off the top of my head.  --Fyren 07:19, 29 September 2006 (CDT)