Talk:Elementalist Skills Quick Reference/Archive

Thought it would be beneficial to add "at a glance" information on how to aquire the skills, this is the first section to be completed.

The trailing dot is a link to the resource on how to gain the skill, I'm not a fan of this dot, if anyone has a better way, please enlighten me.

The icons are a bit garrish, I'll fix them.(this has been done) --rushiku 03:12, 18 February 2006 (CST)

My wiki-etiquette is...lacking, alright, I'll just say: I'm wiki-noob. So, sorry if this is in the wrong place.

New Dots
Cutting to the chase, I'm planning on adding these 'skill source' icons to all the skills, but it's alot of work...so I guess I'm checking to see if the changes are just going to be reverted before I spend the time to do them (looking for a nod of approval from a mod) - Thanks --rushiku 03:45, 18 February 2006 (CST)


 * Well, I think we (the community) should decide if adding this info in this particular way to these tables is a good idea before you invest the time into doing it. Perhaps a vote is in order, added below. &mdash; Stabber 05:11, 18 February 2006 (CST)


 * Eh, are we doing it for only THIS article, or for all skill references list in general? I kinda think this vote is in the wrong place... -PanSola 18:18, 18 February 2006 (CST)


 * Since this is the only article at the moment that has these additions, I think the vote is in the right place. All who care have probably already voted. &mdash; Stabber 20:00, 18 February 2006 (CST)

Vote on new infocons
7 day vote, ending on Feb 24, 2006.

The new informative icons are:


 * 1) A good idea, and well implemented.
 * 2) A good idea, but too cryptic or otherwise confusing for such lists.
 * 3) Stabber (see comments below)
 * 4) 69.124.143.230 05:31, 18 February 2006 (CST)
 * 5) Shandy
 * 6) Not a good idea.
 * 7) Rainith
 * 8) Ravious
 * 9) PanSola
 * 10) TheSpectator
 * 11) 130.58
 * 12) Other (please specify)
 * 13) Xeeron
 * 1) Xeeron

Results
By a solid majority, option 3 "not a good idea" wins. On February 26, 2006, unless there are any further objections, the addition of these informative icons shall be reversed. &mdash; Stabber 08:49, 25 February 2006 (CST)

Discussion
I think the information is good, but it is yet another code for the reader to keep in mind. Any "at a glance" table should have all information immediately obvious, not require one to keep "green bar means quux" and "yellow bar means grunk", etc., nor have to scroll to the beginning every time to check the legend. Now I don't think that capping info should necessarily be verboten in such lists, but perhaps the information should not be coded. How about, for instance, just having: And so on? &mdash; Stabber 05:11, 18 February 2006 (CST)
 * Something like that. But how about just putting letters in the table representing everything?  Q for quest, T for trainer, etc.?  69.124.143.230 05:31, 18 February 2006 (CST)


 * Really all the info on where to get the skill is (or should be) on the skill's page, to which there is a link in the table (click on the skill name). --Rainith 05:14, 18 February 2006 (CST)


 * Yes, no doubt, but the question is should such information necessarily not be provided in such a list. There are good and obvious arguments against adding this information -- duplication of info, maintenance, etc., etc. Do these necessarily override the convenience of having all the information in a single page? After all, couldn't the user just click on the skill name to find the duration, mana cost, etc.? &mdash; Stabber 05:20, 18 February 2006 (CST)


 * So what about the skills that have multiple quests that will give them as a reward? And all the (non-elite) skills have at least two trainers (Dakk).  How do we show that with one link for quest and one for trainer?  And if we add multiple links for quest and trainer, it will start getting to be less of a quick reference page and more of an in depth guide to the skills.  --Rainith 05:35, 18 February 2006 (CST)


 * It's not counting how many exist, it's counting if they exist or not. If there is a quest, Q.  If not, no Q.  If there is a trainer, then a T pops up.  You could even have columns for each and just having a check if there exists one or not.  It's not like an integer keeping track of each one, it's just a boolean.  Off or on, false or true.  69.124.143.230 05:57, 18 February 2006 (CST)


 * That isn't how the example provided above is. It has (quest, trainer) which go to the quest Eye for Profit and the trainer Tengsao.  --Rainith 05:59, 18 February 2006 (CST)


 * In my defense, that is exactly what the infocons linked to. Perhaps rushiku should explain more fully his intentions behind these icons. &mdash; Stabber 06:03, 18 February 2006 (CST)


 * No problem (not from me anyway). :)  I actually like 69.124's idea of a column or columns that list Q, T, C for Quest, Trainer, Capture (respectively).  My concern is the way it was proposed will result in entries having multiple quests and trainers listed (that's without going into the SoC possibilities).  --Rainith 06:09, 18 February 2006 (CST)


 * Q might be useful. T is pointless, since all elites have trainers and all non-elites don't. C is pointless because pretty much every skill is capturable. So, if we do it, I'd only do Q. And I'd make Q link to the skill page, not to a quest page, because you want a list of all quests that grant it, not one of them (since you won't see that quest if you print the page, anyway). I think the little buttons, while somewhat stylish, are incomprehensible.
 * Okay, now to derail the conversation, something else to consider: Ch2 rolls out soon. The list of Chapter 2 questables is likely to be different from the list of Chapter 1 questables, just like the two skill lists are different. So Chapter flagging is going to be the next big thing. We might want to figure out how to do that now. --130.58 23:34, 22 February 2006 (CST)
 * It'd make life simpler if the questable skills are also the chapter-specific skills. But I doubt Signet of Capture or the REz signet are going to be chapter specific... d-: -PanSola 00:22, 23 February 2006 (CST)


 * What about a Q with a wikilink to the quest, a T with a wikilink to the first trainer who teaches it, and a C to the first boss who has it? 69.124.143.230 09:01, 25 February 2006 (CST)

Skills by capture location really handles everything (shows which ones are questable, AND only list skills until a trainer becomes available for it). As it is now, if skill availablility changes in the game, we already have to remember to update TWO places (the skill's own article and the Skills by capture locaton. Repeating this info at a third place will make it even harder to keep things in sync...  Unless we go with the horizontal skill info box being voted upon here, and build it into the skill box. -PanSola 12:56, 18 February 2006 (CST)


 * Also, the way you make the markers makes users far more likely to click on the image's icon than to the link you want them to go, something needs to be done about that... -PanSola 12:59, 18 February 2006 (CST)

It's a nice idea, but I don't think it's really necessary. The quest/trainer location info is already within the skill descriptions. Even though it's good (and easy) for people to simply look up this quick reference and see that the skill is available in an upcoming quest so they don't buy it, people would have to see in which quest it comes up (so they know when to get it), which would require clicking on the skill for more info anyway. --TheSpectator 02:37, 22 February 2006 (CST)

While I find which skills are cappable and which ones have a trainer rather unimportant (in the worst case, you want a bit to long to get the skill), a list that shows which skills are questable would be very helpful, since it prevents you from wasting a skill point. The info is both on the skill page and on the Skills by capture location list (italics vs non-italics mades for very bad distinguishing), but neither is easy to read. Think about one list that you can print out and look at while you are standing at the corspe of a boss with the SoC ready. I missed something like that when I started playing. --Xeeron 20:04, 22 February 2006 (CST)


 * Hear hear! &mdash; Stabber 20:52, 22 February 2006 (CST)


 * The voting period has elapsed and the change has been pretty well defeated, but with some interesting discussion as to how a change might be implemented to improve the already good quick references.


 * New change proposal: Add an icon to those skills that can be gained from a quest. The icon itself need not be linked to the quest because the information on the skill's page already has that link. The only extra maintainence this would create would be in the rare (unheard of, AFAIK) occurance of a skill becoming no longer obtainable via a quest. The icon would be added to a new column.


 * There have been some great points brought up both for and against the addition of this information. I feel that this change would be light-weight and in the spirit of a quick reference.--rushiku 22:45, 25 February 2006 (CST)


 * I'm on it. It's a convenient way to check up which skills can be gained as quest rewards when you're visiting Priest of Balthazar, wanting to unlock skills for your characters. Since PoB has skill listing similar to that of GuildWiki's, you don't have to hit CTRL+F on "skills sorted by quest reward". You can just click on normal skill listing.

Explanation of Proposed Addition
While pondering a skill acquisition, I wondered if there were somewhere to look to see if I could gain the skill via a quest, so I wouldn't pointlessly spend a skill point.

Upon finding the Quick References, I thought 'it would be nice if I didn't have to click on all these skills to see if I can get them from a quest, maybe I could add something to each skill that would clarify'

Soon enough, the thought to show all the ways each one can be gained occured. Shortly after that, linking to relevant information was added to the process.

So, I decided that an icon for each way was more appropriate than text. An icon can convey the meaning without taking up a bunch of space. My icons suck, in that they convey no meaning to the uninitiated. Better icons would solve that problem. (I did, however, take advantage of the tooltip (alt text) to assist in identifying the icons without scrolling to the key)

I encountered the problem of multiple sources for a skill early on. My thought there was: 'So what if there are multiple trainers for a skill? As long as one knows of at least one trainer to go to get the skill, the skill is gotten, end of story'.

The case of multiple capture points wasn't so easy to dismiss, so I linked to the capture page where one can easily enter the name of the skill in their page search box and quickly find each occurance of the spell and the associated area and boss to look for.

Links aside, the point of the addition is to have a quick reference to solve the following situation: "I just beat down XXX boss, should I use a SoC on one of the skills it has?"


 * Just a note, but unless a skill is an elite skill, there will always be a trainer that offers it, and there are always at least two trainers for each skill. And you will never need to use an SoC for anything other than elite skills.  That isn't to say that there aren't skills that can be gotten with an SoC before they are offered by quests or trainers, but I just wanted to note that for you.  --Rainith 06:36, 18 February 2006 (CST)


 * Well, that puts a different spin on this...it would be enough to simply make it apparent which skills are "questable"--rushiku 06:41, 18 February 2006 (CST)