GuildWiki talk:Style and formatting/Skills

= Skill Box and Elite Flagging =

Resurrecting the "Elite Flagging" debate
Here are some of my skill boxes: User:PanSola/Skill box test

For the icon for Echo, I used the one from the new Anet fansit kit (only 3kb, and has a higher quality look than the current 16kb png ones we use for elites), which does not have golden border around the icon.

The actual "gold" color and the border styles are negeociable.


 * Skill box 3 is most similar to User:Eightyfour-onesevenfive/skilltest. The elite color dominates the entire skill box.
 * Skill box 4 is actually not about elite flagging, but about the re-structure of the box itself. Ignore for now.
 * Skill box 5 is most similar to User:Rezyk/SkillExampleC. The elite color only shades the cell.
 * Skill box 6 only puts the golden border AROUND the skill icon, which might not be prominent enough, but looks more eloquent (perhaps make the color darker or border thicker?).

All of these skill boxes essentially use the same syntax (I need a wrapper table around 3 and 4 to make the float right). The difference between whether the golden color (be it the entire box or just the cell) simply depends on if we filled the variable with the word "Elite".

For Skill type, I use the same hack as the border coloring, so the "Elite" would only appear on a new line for elite skills, and for non-elite skills the newline effect is hardly visible.

Other choices are:
 * Style and formatting/Skills/Everything Example (adding a yellow bar)
 * The current system.

What do ppl think? -PanSola 01:22, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Six looks good, as does four. I like the restructuring of four, making the box longer and thinner. On six, maybe use a darker and thinner border? I think the best option would be screen caps from in-game, however, with the 'natural' border. Shandy 03:37, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I like 5 and "Everything Example". I do not like options where the elite color floods the whole box, because I feel like it's kind of overbearing. I think 6 is good, too, but that specific color doesn't work as well when it's in a tiny border (I'd lighten and fade it some to get a more washed-out, less marigold-y gold). 130.58 04:19, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

ADDED: Skill box 7. It uses a different border style than 6, and gets a black background to make the gold stand out more. Note that the same color is used in 6 and 7, but because of hte different border styling they appear differently. -PanSola 05:20, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Skills Quick References
I am very unhappy with our current " Skills Quick References" tables, for example Warrior Skills Quick Reference. These are among the most popular pages on GuildWiki, but they are flawed, for a number of reasons: I would love if we could come up with a solution that allows us to link the individual skill articles with the overview list. One possible solution is to change the skill box template so that it is in landscape format (100% page width) and that it includes the skill description. Then we could use the noinclude/includeonly tags to build the Quick References out of all the individual skill articles. This will be a helluvalot of work, but I think it is worth it. We might start with the Assassin and Ritualist skills, because those are still in Draft state anyway. I'll go ahead and suggest a landscape skill box incl. the description. -- 03:52, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) The info is redundant with the individual skill articles, and if ANet changes anything about a skill, we gotta fix it in two places.
 * 2) The description isn't wikified.
 * 3) Some important information is missing, foremost the skill type.


 * Well the quickest solution would be to put everything else, except the skill description, in noinclude tags. However if the energy or recharge changes we still have the same fundamental problem.  I think making the box landscape defeats having a "box".  What we get is just a none-floating full-width table.  Which is fine, I'm not saying I'm against it.  Just pointing out it loses the box-ness.
 * So, the things that are NOT included in the quick reference would be (backsolving):
 * 1. Progression
 * 2. Aquisition
 * 3. Progression Table
 * So we'll just put everything after the first section into ? Do we want the icon to be included in the quick reference or not? -PanSola 04:42, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Heh.. Before you put a lot of work into this, I suggest taking a look at the source code of User:Rezyk/test3 and Trap. This is a project that Cloak of Letters and I were working on until Cloak got bored and I ended up on hiatus.  The mechanism used is also designed to allow for general extensions (demonstrated in Paladin (build), Hex, and User:Rezyk/test), such as what you might want to add for a skill box. --Rezyk 06:17, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah I noticed all those includeonly and noincludes in the skill pages. The annoying thing with that is you got duplicate info contained in the SAME page.  Essentually its dumping two articles into the same page, showing the top only when viewed directly, and showing the bottom only when included.  Personally I'd like to see that content are actually shared between the viewed page and the included page, using includonly and noinclude to manipulate unwanted sections or alternate formatting. -PanSola 06:45, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I always hated that redundancy too. But as far as I can tell, it's pretty easy to fix that and most everything else within Tetris' new proposal.  Just do this:
 * Replace the skill Description section with the stuff from the includeonly section. Take off the includeonly tags (but keep everything else noinclude).  Add wiki codes for table-start and table-end around it, in the noinclude sections.
 * Wikify the description text.
 * Figure out how we want to place the info not covered by it (basically just the image, profession, and attribute)
 * --Rezyk 07:01, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

The Landscape Skillbox That Can Be Included For Reference Lists
Ok here is what I got: If I give them borders then the empty fields for recharge/activation/misc will look ugly. If there is a way to put border around the entire row but not columns within the row, please let me know. -PanSola 09:41, 11 February 2006 (CST)
 * User:PanSola/Skill chart test
 * User:PanSola/Echo


 * That's one of the main reasons I suggested looking at this mechanism... We spent quite some effort and solved that problem there. --Rezyk 22:19, 11 February 2006 (CST)


 * Hehe sorry I didn't look originally cuz I didn't plan to work on it. And when I did decide to take a shot I forgot all about it d-:  New version up -PanSola 22:46, 11 February 2006 (CST)

Ok I made two versions of the same template. They display identically, the syntax is similar but different. Basically, version 1 uses only 3 templates (top and bottom needs to be in noinclude to work with quick reference lists), but the pre-applocated space means the stats icons have to be typed in manually, which is unfriendly. On the other hand, version 2 uses a lot more templates, in exchange for not having to name the skill icon.
 * Version 1
 * Version 2

Comments on the design in general (common to both versions) or the syntax for the templates appreciated. -PanSola 23:18, 11 February 2006 (CST)

Version 3 is up, at User:PanSola/Skill chart test, with much simplified syntax. -PanSola 05:34, 21 February 2006 (CST)

14-day Vote: Revamp Skill boxes?
Ballot will be open for 14 days. If you have stuff for the "Other" options, please try to post them within the first 7 days so all options have at least 7 days of review time before the poll is closed. Discuss minor stylistic variations (such as border width) at the bottom section. -PanSola 13:12, 13 February 2006 (CST)


 * Reminder, one day left!

Ballot Item A: Skill article box vs Skill Quick Reference list rows, unify or not?
Incident: See


 * Option A1 - Use the same skill box entry for both, which most likely entail replacing current float-right skill box with a horizontal table layout (see User:PanSola/Echo and User:PanSola/Skill chart test, details of horizontal format is still modifiable).
 * Option A2 - Nothing is broken, don't change anything. This entails keeping duplicate information once for the skill article itself, and at least another once for quick reference lists.  The minimal two-occurances can still be kept in the same article by putting one in noinclude and the other in includeonly tags.
 * Option A3 - Other (Please specify)

Ballot Item B: A thinner, longer skill box layout?
(Assume Option A2 defeats Option A1 above) Please vote even if you did not support Option A2.

Incident: Aura of Restoration looks a little bad at 1024x768 using current skill box (overlap with progression box, AND moved aquisition up a section to minimize the effect, which looks bad in another way). A revised skill box ("skill box 2") looks well at 1024x768, but still looks bad at 800x600.


 * Option B1 - Use skill box 2's new layout: User:PanSola/Aura_of_Restoration
 * Option B2 - Use current format, since skill box 2 doesn't really fix much to worth the trouble.
 * Option B3 - Suggest your own

Ballot Item C: Elite Flagging
For this ballot item, except for option C1, a combination of options is possible. Thus for each option please specify yes/no/no-opinion. Also note that while most of the examples shown are for the vertical skill box, the same flagging style can be applied to the horizontal layout.


 * Option C1 - Use the current method (specified in the "Type" field only), example
 * Option C2 - Adding a gold bar underneath the skill name, example.
 * Option C3 - Color entire skill box golden (see skill box 3 and 4)
 * Option C5 (skipping the number 4 to reduce confusion) - Color the background of the cell contain the skill icon to gold, if it's elite (see skill box 5). For the horizontal layout, this is usually not noticable.
 * Option C6 - Add a border (thickness negeociable), golden if it's elite, around the skill icon (see skill box 6)
 * Option C7 - Color the cell contining the skill icon black to highlight the golden color of the border (see skill box 7). Note this option conficts with C5 and requires C6.  For the horizontal layout, this is usually not noticable.
 * Option C8 - Color the name cell background gold for elites.

Voting - commentary and discussion
C8 is mostly relavent to the Horizontal style, because the background of the cell hoding the skill image icon won't be visible much of the time, I feel something in addition to the gold border is needed. If it's the vertical style then I'm happy with the gold border plus black background to highlight the border. -PanSola 13:23, 13 February 2006 (CST)


 * IMO this elite flagging stuff is a pain in the ass. What is so hard about looking at the skill description and seeing that it says "This is an elite skill."?  --Rainith 13:30, 13 February 2006 (CST)


 * Well, since the new fansite kit does not have golden border for elite skill icons, and ppl kind of expect to see the golden border for elites, that's why I support elite flagging by adding a border. -PanSola 06:39, 16 February 2006 (CST)


 * Ouch, it doesn't? That's an annoyance.  69.124.143.230 02:42, 19 February 2006 (CST)


 * I thought the whole point was to make things easier and faster for references. Otherwise, we might as well still be up in the trees hunting stuff by flinging coconuts at them. --theeth 02:34, 19 February 2006 (CST)

I like the icons and the layout of the horizontal boxes, but something about them feels just a tiny bit off to me. I think it's the name. Could someone demonstrate a skill box format with the name on its own separate row, above the row for skill type, attribute, and costs? --130.58 23:52, 18 February 2006 (CST)


 * I agree, I think the name of the skill should have more visual highlights that the proposed layout. Maybe squeezing the description on the left a bit and having the name and the type their own collumns (like the name is in the current layout). --theeth 02:34, 19 February 2006 (CST)
 * Theeth, do you mean "row" as opposed to "column"? Otherwise I am confused. -PanSola 03:00, 19 February 2006 (CST)
 * Here, I whiped something quick: Echo, using a modified version of your template. --theeth 03:02, 19 February 2006 (CST)

This vote and debate is quite extensive; took a lot of reading, haha. I'm not sure what C8 means, as in coloring the actual name cell (i.e. the little box that the word "Echo" is in) gold? If that's the case, that's okay with me. I'd prefer having the quick skills reference; it is quite convenient. Some of the examples for modifying it are good, i.e like the ones adding more specific information as to skill type. As for elite flagging, I prefer not to have the whole skill box colored gold, nor to have the articial golden border around elites (and subsequent gray border around non-elites). Options C2 and C8 (again, assuming I interpreted C8 correctly) are cleaner. The artificial gold/gray borders looks tacky, even with border width adjusted. I'd also prefer just keeping the in-game gold border, along with options C2/C8. --TheSpectator 03:05, 22 February 2006 (CST)

I find that the horizonal format loses the "at a glance" aspect. In the current form a quick glance at the right side of a skill article gives you all the info, with the horizonal forms your eye has a lot more work to do. I really don't like it for the individual skill pages. Also, shouldn't [PAGENAME].png be used in all the examples? I'd also like to go on a mini rant here, I've put in all the progressions for the assassin skills and added a number of them... and it was very hard to figure out what to do, there are many different formats used for skills and I ended up just guessing. Can a few (one elite and non-elite perhaps) skills be designated as the preferred style and always be kept up to date to serve as examples? I expect to have skill pages generated in wiki format for all new skills within a few hours of when they appear in game and, like last time, be too frustrated by the update process to upload them all (i.e. I have all ritualist progressions sitting in files right now) -- Cloud

By request of 130.58
This one shows what happens when descriptions are long. Also testing with border-coloring only. {| width=100% cellpadding="0" border=1 cellspacing=0
 * - height=8px
 * rowspan=3 bgcolor=black width=64px|


 * style="empty-cells:show; white-space:nowrap; border-right:none" height=8px |  Echo
 * colspan=20 align=right style="empty-cells:show;white-space:nowrap; border-left:none"| [ Edit]
 * align=left| [[image:Mesmer-icon.png|16px]] Unlinked (Mesmer)
 * align=left| Elite Enchantment Spell
 * align=right style="empty-cells:show;white-space:nowrap; border-right:none"|
 * align=right style="empty-cells:show;white-space:nowrap;border-left:none;border-right:none"| 5[[image:Energy.png]]
 * align=right style="empty-cells:show;white-space:nowrap;border-left:none;border-right:none"| 1[[image:Activation.png]]
 * align=right style="empty-cells:show;white-space:nowrap;border-left:none;"|30[[image:Recharge.png]]
 * colspan=20 valign=top |  For 20 seconds, Echo is replaced with the next skill you use. Echo acts as this skill for 20 seconds. But some skills have descriptions that are really long maybe go on for 2 or 3 lines.
 * }
 * colspan=20 valign=top |  For 20 seconds, Echo is replaced with the next skill you use. Echo acts as this skill for 20 seconds. But some skills have descriptions that are really long maybe go on for 2 or 3 lines.
 * }
 * }

Hmm, I would like the landscape format to take up as little vertical space for each entry as posslble. The current quick reference lists average 1 or 2 rows per entry, my proposal already pumps it to 3 rows, putting the skill name on its own row compounds the issue. Anyways, the details of how the landscape format look wouldn't change my vote of going landscape (vs keeping the vertical info boxes). -PanSola 03:22, 19 February 2006 (CST)
 * Mmm, good job! Those are very nice. I really like the top one (what color would it be for non-elites? white? grey? greenish? I feel like the table looks nicer with a non-white background under the name). I would favor putting the skill name on a separate line like that because it just sort of feels aesthetically pleasing to have the name emphasized like that, even though it does take up a bit more space. Also, it means that the (edit) button ends up in the usual place. =) --130.58 02:34, 20 February 2006 (CST)


 * My plan is to use grey for non-elites. So... are you going to vote? d-: -PanSola 02:41, 20 February 2006 (CST)

How about mine then? Less space for the name, but long description would fit without stretching the boxes vertically.--theeth 20:01, 19 February 2006 (CST)
 * The overall column design looks odd to me, but we can all have our own opionions. One of my original design point was to semi-resemble the skill info on the bottom of the skill menu.  The main difference is the skill menu gives the skill desc its entire row, and the skill icon, name, and stats share one row.  I altered that to give the icon a rowspan to save vert space (and added more fields on the top row).  That was the conception behind my original design.  But again, feel free to hate mine d-: -PanSola 02:24, 20 February 2006 (CST)

These colors are giving me constipation
I have no comment on the material of this discussion, but in all the examples I've seen so far, the colors are hideous, disgusting, beyond profane, nauseating, gaudy, loud, and altogether ill-advised. Kill that yellow, please. I beg you! 03:43, 19 February 2006 (CST)
 * It's gold, and suggest your own color to replace it please. -PanSola 03:46, 19 February 2006 (CST)
 * How about?


 * Still hideous, but at least it's uniform across the entire entry. While I'm complaining about looks, the padding and borders need a good bit of tweaking also. 04:03, 19 February 2006 (CST)


 * The bordering stuff won't look good with collapsed border (see those extra lines?). And I don't understand the apparent general obsession with collapsed border that ppl have... Also the color always become lighter on the icon's bordering, and in this particular case it looks rather white, defeating the design.  -PanSola 04:08, 19 February 2006 (CST)


 * Meh. I don't know whether it's more like gold or goldenrod or mustard yellow, but I think the original choice of color works pretty well. It is a bit flashy, certainly, but you want elites to be flashy. --130.58 02:37, 20 February 2006 (CST)

Skuld's Rendering
*** '''I'm working on one that requires only 1 template on the page and uses plain English. See: User:Skuld/Skill box/index''' ***


 * I had a go, looks a wee bit prettier 07:38, 20 February 2006 (CST)


 * I made the code easy to use:


 * 08:08, 20 February 2006 (CST)


 * How will your skillbox handle maintained enchantments which required 4 fields? And how will empty fields look like?  I specifically removed borders in that area to reduce ugliness for blank fields.  And will we need a different box depending on if it's elite or not?  And how does it work with ? -PanSola 11:54, 20 February 2006 (CST)


 * It will need a few templates, {{Skill template|adrenaline| should do, can put a variable in for whatever and then template:skill template can be {{Skill template {{{1}}}}} with that way they'll be a few, and yes different ones for elites 15:03, 20 February 2006 (CST)
 * And what happens for a skill that has no activation time? Yet another template or just print 0?  And no column alignment to trade for simple syntax? -PanSola 15:49, 20 February 2006 (CST)

Yet Another Try

 * This might not be what you guys are looking for but heres my take on it...

- -
 * | Chuiu 15:36, 20 February 2006 (CST)

Guidelines when proposing new Landscape formats

 * 1) How it looks for an elite skill vs non-elite skill
 * 2) How it look for a skill with very long description at common resolutions (try Unyielding Aura).
 * 3) How it look for a skill with very long name  at common resolutions (try Glyph of Elemental Power).
 * 4) How it look for a common skill (try Signet of Capture).
 * 5) How it handles skills that require upkeep, sacrifice, or causes Exhausion.
 * 6) How it looks for a skill that require no recharge and/or casting time.
 * 7) How it looks in a Quick Reference List.  Do you want to keep the columns aligned, or do you not care if they are misaligned?
 * 8) Syntax design.  What are the tradeoffs you conciously made between simple syntax and better layout/functionality?

For an example, see User:PanSola/Skill chart test which addresses most of the issues. The big trade off is to have each stat (recharge, sacrifice etc) use one template entry to avoid either having a recharge icon when the skill doesn't require recharge, or having the user type in the full icon link for the stat (since you can't use a template to provide parameter to another template). -PanSola 14:03, 20 February 2006 (CST)

= Skill Icon Format =

Skill icons: screen cap or fansite kit?

 * Echo screen cap, 16kb: [[Image:Echo.png]]
 * Echo fansite kit, 3kb: [[Image:Echo.jpg]]

Over at the Task list the opinions has been to use the one from the fansite kit, but the issue that there is no golden border for the elite skills was not brought up. I still vote fansite kit though. -PanSola 06:03, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


 * IMO, we should go with the fansite kit images. The golden border shouldn't be that important if the skill article itself says that they are an elite skill.  --Rainith 11:21, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Or if someone is willing they could simply add the border. I can do it if I have the time, but that's an option as well. --GraceAlone 23:37, 16 February 2006 (CST)

Skill Icons: Mix of Old and New fansite kit, or new fansite kit only?
Old fansite kit icons does not have elite skills. New fansite kit have all skills, but are smaller.

Do we want a mix, use old by default and new only if old doesn't have it? or do we want to go uniform on size? Rainith has expressed a preference for uniformity (use all new), and I also support that position.

Relavent discussion at GuildWiki:Task List#Task: Skill Images Revamp. -PanSola 09:11, 12 February 2006 (CST)

Moved from GuildWiki:Task List
Moved from Task List

Re-upload or rename all skill images to their correct skill name (skill name.png). The template:Skill bar, which would improve all build articles a lot and is easy to use, requires properly names images. Proper names are good whenever you need the image anyway.

Update: Since the recent update many skill icons have changed. Another reason to get this done.

--Xeeron 05:33, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Just a note, but it looks like ANet changed their fansite kits for the skill icons. At a quick glance I saw that some (maybe all) of the elites are in there now.  The (possible) down side is that they changed the size of the graphics to about half their old size.  If all the elites are included in these, I think we should use them, that way all our skills will be uniform.  --Rainith 11:36, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. With all the new skill icons, this would be a ton of work otherwise. Hopefully ANet has a full set of the new icons somewhere. --Xeeron 05:33, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm fairly sure all the elite skills are included. However they are now .jpg and not .png, AND the elites don't have golden borders. -PanSola 00:51, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I made a template for getting the images uploaded with the correct name, i'll be looking through them and listing them all. Template:Moveimage 05:38, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Since there is no way to "move" images (w/o re-uploading them) I think we should just straight upload the new images from the kits, even if the elites don't have golden borders. --Rainith 11:11, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm trying to help gets these updated since I have the time, but need to know where we stand: are we using the official images from Anet, even with the smaller size, or are we doing something else? --GraceAlone


 * I think we have a majority in favor of using the new fansite kits from Anet. I tried to stir up another discussion here but didn't get many responses... -PanSola 22:05, 15 February 2006 (CST)


 * Another issue to debate, if we use the FSK images, do we convert them to PNGs or do we change our templates here to accept them as JPGs? Just throwing that out there.  --Rainith 01:30, 16 February 2006 (CST)
 * Personally I'm not happy with the quality and size of the FSK icons (but that's my opinion). I think we have the majority of the icons, we just don't have a uniformity. As it stands now I think we just need to rename the icon, re-upload, and then edit the skill description (at least that's what I've been doing). --GraceAlone 02:37, 16 February 2006 (CST)
 * Well, the skill box templates do not asume any extensions currently. I don't know about the templates for builds.  I say keep them in original JPG format.  As for the "quality and size" of the FSK icons, see this link about what *I* am not happy about in terms of quality and (file) size. -PanSola 06:36, 16 February 2006 (CST)


 * Generally, I am in favor of keeping the golden border. I have come across a few articles with the new "borderless" skill icons and found that very irritating. --Xeeron 20:55, 21 February 2006 (CST)


 * Ditto. 21:19, 21 February 2006 (CST)
 * Well I'm proposing adding our own golden border with the skill boxes, see GuildWiki talk:Style and formatting/Skills which would mitigate the issue a lot. Even vertical skill info boxes can have golden border added skill box 6 and 7 from this link.  You guys should go and vote on the skill boxes (-: -PanSola 22:12, 21 February 2006 (CST)
 * The problem is: In nearly all build articles, we now use the template skill bar, which displays the skill image. Very neat looking, but the yellow border needs to be in the image itself. Apart from that, its the way it is in the game. --Xeeron 06:19, 22 February 2006 (CST)

Skill Icons - setting up the ballot
Please don't start voting until the skill box layout format is decided.

Voting format will be Majority vote with instant-runoff.

Neither the original or the new fansite kit provided icons for Res Signet and Sig of Capture

The Ballot

 * 1) Use original fansite kit PNG images, plus screencaps for elite, outdated, or unavailable icons
 * 2) Use new fansite kit JPG images, plus screencaps for unavailable icons
 * 3) Use original fansite kit PNG images, plus screencaps for elites, and new fansite kit for outdated icons
 * 4) Use screencaps for everything to ensure ultimate uniformity
 * 5) Use new fansit kit JPG images, edit elite ones to get a gold border, plus screencaps for unavailable icons

Ballot Item Discussion
Please discuss what should be added to the ballot or the pro/con summary (or if either lack neutrality).
 * If I could suggest a slighly different idea, how about using the new FSK jpgs with a slight change for the elites: [[Image:elite-example.jpg]] vs. the original: [[Image:warriorcleave.jpg]]
 * All I did was take the FSK icon and color the black border with a color taken with the eyedropper tool from the elite border of an older icon. I'm not sold on this color, but it is a very easy fix and I would be happy to do all the borders of the elite skills (I would do it over a weekend, so if everyone decides that this is a good idea on a tuesday, don't expect to see them done on wednesday morning).  So what do people think?  Have a better color suggestion for the border?  Post a pic with the color and I can use that.  --Rainith 11:47, 25 February 2006 (CST)
 * EDIT - also as the FSK icons are in jpg format they scale much better for use in the skill bar than the png format ones. --Rainith 11:51, 25 February 2006 (CST)
 * For the other professions this might be quite nice, but with warriors teh color isn't standing out a lot, in the particular icon you posted anyways. Excellent idea. -PanSola 03:54, 26 February 2006 (CST)
 * The color stands out when compared vs. the original, see above. Anyways, like I said, suggest a better color and it can be used, I just didn't want to upload 20 different versions.  --Rainith 10:49, 26 February 2006 (CST)
 * I am all for editing the FSK files.  Besides, they are much easier to get a hold of.  Less work for those involved. -Novalith 12:24, 27 February 2006 (EST)

As a random note, the old FSK actually had JPGs. For unknown reasons, Martin (the original uploader of most of them) converted them to PNG. He couldn't remember why he converted them when I asked him months afterwards. --Fyren 02:01, 27 February 2006 (CST)