Talk:GuildWars.com news/20060712

I guess with the Dragon Festival, the PvPers might have felt a little jaded. While I could care less for PvP/GvG (no substance, just kill or be killed), I would think most of those players would already have accumulated amass of Bally faction and unlocked almost every, if not every thing possible. Double Bally faction just doesn't seem like a big seller. :\ -Gares 12:57, 12 July 2006 (CDT)
 * GvG has no substance? Pah. GvG is the highest level of play Guild Wars offers, nothing is more challenging and demanding than GvG. I dont think this is due to the PvPers feeling a bit jaded, but an attempt to get as many guilds as possible to play during the short season - even if they have no hope of getting to #1 to go to lepzing. That way they can feel that they all won, at least on the player level. --Draygo Korvan (Yap) 13:00, 12 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I wouldn't call it the highest level of play. See, I would say that completing an 8 man run in The Deep would be more challenging than GvG, but you may be a PvPer and I am a PvEer, so we may see things differently. Although, I didn't even comment on the Open part; While I know nothing of seasons and ladders, except eventually someone is going to win some real world money and there's going to be a skill update :P, ANet trying to get more guilds to dip their toes in the waters of PvP seems like a good idea. You never know if you like something unless you try it. -Gares 13:24, 12 July 2006 (CDT)
 * There is the problem, you don't GvG. So how can you draw such a comparison with GvG to PvE unless you play both often. In PvE its all about figureing out the best way to kill a bunch of monsters with the IQ of 2 (actually they probably score a 0, due to the fact that they dont learn at all). GvG in particular is not only about killing the other guy, but out playing/manuvering the other team. While the Deep can be difficult and time consuming, it still isnt hard. The enemies there cannot adapt, they dont learn, they dont plan, they dont break aggro off of tanks and go attack soft targets unless they 'see' the soft target. To draw this comparison more carfully, how often do you run an Ice elementalist in PvE? How often do you use a Mesmer or an Assassin? How often do you bring mitigation spells (non-monk) to cast on enemies to prevent them from doing damage to you for a little while? GvG is definatly the highest level of play, it is what the game was marketed for in the first place. In addition GvG requires a higher level of teamwork and cordination than PvE does. This is exemplfied by the need of top teams to use voice or sit in the same (physical) room for easy communication. GvG is not only about figuring out the best way to kill someone, its trying to figure out how to best manage the entire battlefield while not knowing exactly what you will meet match after match. --Draygo Korvan (Yap) 15:33, 12 July 2006 (CDT)
 * As a PVEer, I have to agree with Draygo's analysis. As long as you have good data about what's in an area and how it behaves, you can "solve" it by creating a team build and a simple strategy. The Tombs B/P team and the SF 5-man farm serve as good historical examples. Ditto for the all-warrior/monk/ele Deep team. Which isn't to say that the game isn't fun or that "solving" an area isn't a challenge, but a lot of the PVE community relies on one person "solving" something and 10 or 100 or 1000 others mooching off of their "solution". Now, the part about ~1% of the community creating ~90% of the community's builds is certainly true in PVP as well (look at boon prots or touch rangers, for example), but your opposition is highly unpredictable and challenges you to adapt your tactics. Even in the hardest PVE areas, putting together a team build and a decent plan is enough to triumph every time, as long as you make sure everyone actually follows the plan. It's because the monsters are all static and dumb as rocks :_( &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 17:58, 12 July 2006 (CDT) )
 * I'm in a good mood, so I will not get into a debate on what is better. But your assumptions will get you in trouble, Draygo, unless you do your research. How often do I use a Mesmer? Why don't you check my talk page for my hours played? There is the problem, you don't GvG. If you can find where I said that, then I will gladly give you anything you need that you have not unlocked so that you can pwn in the arena. Seems you love GvG and I will not knock you for that, to each his own, but before you get worked up next time, please research what you write.
 * Shade is right. Both types of play have cookie cutter builds. Whatever works, I guess :\ Yes, the game is called Guild Wars, but without the PvE side of the game, do you really think ANet would have such tremendous success? It has taken both aspects to create the game we all enjoy playing. If it makes you smile Draygo, I do love to play in Fort Aspenwood. -Gares 18:44, 12 July 2006 (CDT)
 * My take on it is this: any kind of GW play is about the 1% of the population that innovates and the rest that just copy them. In top-20/30/whatever GVG, you have to face that 1% in head-on confrontation. That makes it the toughest thing in the game. Most PVPers won't every do that, however, which means that most of the PVP content *is* just as cookie-cutter as the PVE content since you're using a cookie-cutter build to fight people with cookie-cutter builds in cookie-cutter ways. This is an extreme example, but: play a hundred games of Random Arena and you'll notice that your team will take the same path on the same map every single time. And that's fine. People play games to be entertained, not to be relentlessly challenged.
 * At any rate, I'd say this is a move more to help people locked into crappy premades break out into other builds than anything else. Given how worthless Balthazar Faction is to anyone who routinely does GVG, I doubt they'll even blink. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 19:48, 12 July 2006 (CDT) )
 * Sorta right on that 130.58 - just because a Guild is running a cookie cutter build, it doesnt mean they will win: thats my whole point. And sorry Gares, I was trying to be a bit more general when puting up those class examples, I shouldnt have used the word "you", but change it into how often pugs are looking for that sort of player. Fort Aspenwood is a Hybrid, quite a bit of fun too, but it isnt as demanding as GvG is its pretty casual much like Random Arena is, I enjoy it much more than random arena though. I just wish some people would start using the Jade Quarry because I like that one better. As for me, Ill barly blink at most it will mean fighting a few more guilds that dont know some standard PvP basics such as kiting, mitigation, and splitting. --Draygo Korvan (Yap) 00:30, 13 July 2006 (CDT)