Talk:Spectral Vaettir

Alright: Vengeful Was Khanhei, Resilient Weapon, Riposte, Healing Signet, Enraged Charge, Sprint, "I Am Unstoppable!" at 11+4 tactics, 12 Restoration, 6 Str works quite "ok" if you were to farm them One at the time. Must never attack and keep Resilient Weapon up and have less then 5-10 energy all the time. Biz 05:36, 26 August 2007 (CDT)


 * This is the build I use: OACjAuiKpSOT+gfTlTnTRbVTDgA
 * Cast BoC and your spirits all in order, move just short of aggro'ing the monster and use summon spirits followed by painful bond. Make sure you do this one enemy at a time. I was able to do this with 0 henchmen/heroes; the only tricky part is avoiding the bison and running past a few other monsters but shouldn't be too hard for anyone.

I believe these guys have 160 AL against fire damage. Tested with flare, supposed to do 68, but only did 12.-- (T)(C) 11:52, 26 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Damage from Physical sources is similarly reduced. It's as if they have innate Physical and Elemental Resistance.--Semantic 17:50, 28 August 2007 (CDT)

You guys are all really smart, expect for one small (oh wait, HUGE) detail: Glacial Stones are NOT exempt from loot scaling! This means that with a 1 person party, you get 8 times less than with an 8 person party...except with an 8 person party you get 8 times less for YOURSELF. What this means is that either way the number of stones YOU personally get is the same, but I imagine killing these with 8 people is a tad faster than alone.24.186.207.198 16:49, 26 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Youve got the numbers off a bit, solo farming items that are not exempted from loot scaling will still produce twice as many items then in a 8 man party. Considering you not always get stones you end up with chances like 1/30 in a full party while soloing is easy 1/7. Biz 04:46, 27 August 2007 (CDT)


 * Maybe you're right, I don't know but I'm going by what I've personally noticed. Solo farming has produced better results than with heroes.


 * The number of party members you need to "disable" loot scaling is not equal to the maximum party size for an area. I think, it's 2 in Jaga Moraine. If you go there with a team of 2 human players, you get a drop every kill. I don't know of monsters dropping more than one item per kill. --[[Image:Warrior's_Endurance.jpg|18px]] numma_cway 18:05, 26 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Bosses =D Biz 04:49, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Where is it that you farm these guys?--81.103.41.86 13:54, 17 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Believe it or not, I actually had one of these things drop a glacial stone AND a little pile of 70-something gold. This was in a party of 3... was this just a total fluke, or has anyone else gotten two items from one non-boss creature before? Wulfgast 18:46, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

AL
Why is it "estimated"? They do have 160 AL against elemental dmg.-- (Talk) (Contr.) 11:14, 8 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Because that number was there when I edited it and I had no confirmation if it was the right number. --Macros 23:44, 8 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Confirmation was already above^^^, unless you didn't believe me.--[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 23:45, 8 September 2007 (CDT)
 * It was during the preview. And I was too lazy to test the numbers myself. --Macros 23:47, 8 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Are you sure they don't just use Elemental Resistance or a Mantra or something? That's a pretty damn high AL for a normal monster! And, how do you know it is for all elements? [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 23:47, 8 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Well, I've tested with fire and earth damage, have never seen them use elemental resistance (yet), and I think Macros tested with an element other than fire.--[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 23:49, 8 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I'll do some more testing on it though.--[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 23:50, 8 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Air. And I never saw them use Elemental Resistance either. I think the AL is to prevent farming (though of course someone has already found a way around it). --Macros 23:51, 8 September 2007 (CDT)
 * On an unrelated note, I know they can be farmed since I bought quite a bit of stones from a person who said "rangers can farm them." When I asked how, they ignored me. --Macros 23:54, 8 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I would think that Trapping works fine. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 23:55, 8 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Ok, just finished checking water, 160 AL again.--[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 23:58, 8 September 2007 (CDT)
 * The knockdown skill of the bear deals only 16 damage instead of 90!
 * I farm with this build: http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:R/N_Resilient_Touch_Farmer
 * (resetting indent) Actually the easiest way I've found to farm these is with... (gasp!) a toucher. use melandru's resiliance, self-inflict bleed, 2 touches, and awaken the blood. that's all you need. (plus anything to GET there)76.173.217.181 01:16, 11 September 2007 (CDT)
 * Fastest way i use is 55, kills them all in one. Protective Spirit, Mystic Regeneration, Shield of Regeneration, Kirin's Wrath, Symbol of Wrath, Blessed Aura, Essence Bond, Balthazar's Spirit. 12+1+3 smite, 7+3 prot, 8 earth, 8+3 divine. Bunch them all up, run to a wall get them between a wall and you and SoJ, Kirins, wait 3 seconds, symbol. Quick and fast, they normally run away so just wait for soj to come back and then kirin and symbol again. -- Xeon 01:24, 11 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm not always a fan of 55s, they seem too... faffy. As for the Toucher idea I considered a similar line, except I just used the 2 touch skills and Soul Leech. Just cast the Soul Leech first and then all you'll need is 3-4 touches on them and they're dead, Troll Unguent and running skills can fill up the rest of the bar (leaving two slots free). Perhaps consider using Barbed Signet if having trouble with energy -arual 13:11, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
 * I don't get how you get 160 - a video on PvXWiki shows Vaettir taking -19 damage at R16 earth in HM using aftershock. With a base damage of 105 using the every 40 = 1/2 damage (so appx 1/6), I was expecting -17 or -18.  The real damage calculation always boggles my brain, so maybe there's something I'm missing.  They also are 6 levels higher, if that matters (it does for their damage, not sure about reduction) --Falseprophet 17:21, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Map?
Hey can anyone post a map of where to find them in any of the areas? I cant seem to find them ANYWHERE in Jaga.
 * Southeast Jaga Moraine, near the portal to Bjora Marches. --Kale Ironfist 19:11, 22 September 2007 (CDT)

Hard mode
Theres a huge lot of em in hard mode, maybe this could be worth farming on that mode?

In Hard mode you will find 60 Vaettirs in the area. They are easily farmed in hard mode with an elementalist/mesmer using the following build:

Template: OgVEMFSJz78VLFSfthBgHmNWiA

Essential for success is a weapon or staff with 20% enchantments last longer.
 * Why so many points in Energy Storage since you have massive energy management from Mantra of Earth? If you go 0 Energy Storage and 12 Air Magic instead you will have your Glyph of Swiftness effect 3 spells instead, which will let you use that glyph on the crystals from time to time to deal out more dmg... --Soulflame 09:21, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Earth Damage
Is it worth a mention that these guys do earth damage? They trigger Mantra of Earth when wanding, makes for great e-management when farming in hard mode. Luminarus 05:56, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I haven't confirmed damage type, but most people who use mantra of earth also use Stone Striker... wich triggers earth for all damage types >.>76.174.13.77 07:01, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * They do definitely do some form of elemental damage - it triggers storm chaser... great for touchers! [[Image:klumpeeticon.jpg|19px]] Kumpeet  talk | contribs  16:29, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Touchers use Melandru's Resilience because of energy and health regeneration... &mdash; Abedeus  [[Image:Sandstorm.jpg|19px]] 17:54, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Confirmed. They deal earth damage with their attacks. --Timeoffire45 18:06, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Yep they activate mantra without stonestriker (frees up a skill slot when farming).


 * Wow... Should we be awaiting a nerf to these? Was the staff drunk when they chose the damage type?  I mean, Mesmers dealing Earth damage is rather... weird, but hey, works for me.  Someone gave me the farming build and I was sitting there scratching my head "Why does this work without Stone Striker? O_O"  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 00:50, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Kegspam farming with Budger

 * I'd assume the common farming method as perma Assa with Budger (http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/1713/vaettirfarm2008kl3.jpg) is much faster than Me, E anyway and thus wouldn't need a nerf. --Birchwooda Treehug 11:42, 31 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Budger needs a nerf, that's all :P Really, it's ridiculous. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  12:02, 31 October 2008 (UTC)


 * After Halloween, Viper :p [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 16:51, 31 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Human ego is so amazing ;) --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  17:23, 31 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I've always been wondering what's the use of Budger there anyway (but for farming purposes). They nerfed him in Heart of Shiverpeaks dungeon. It was such a nice farming place XD (when Onyx was still 8k/ea) --Birchwooda Treehug 23:30, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * He's not nerfed outside of HotS, so you use kegspam to kill everywith with an A/E. A good number of nice greens can be got this way. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 04:10, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * But that's my question, why was he added? He isn't useful for anything but farming. Greens are lame XD Greens are for people who can't afford the skin in gold with good stats ;) I think those Vaettirs there are the only kind that don't drop any Vaettir Essences oO --Birchwooda Treehug 19:26, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * You PvElitists make me cry. Budger's dialogue states that he's for hire to "help" you, and I think ANet knew perfectly well what they were doing by letting people still kegspam, since Shadow Form is still perfectly maintainable. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 23:53, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The garbage greens don't matter at all. It's the golds you get from farming Vaettir. I've gotten as many as 8 golds from a single instance of them. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 23:55, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Then you got lucky, or is that normal for you in every run? I got 0-5 (while 5 is rarer than 0), average I'd say 1-2 each run. But without the event I've no interest in farming anyway :P (as I've no use for unid gold without pushing the treasure hunter title as well, and as for money the Vaettirs drop junk, so selling them as unid for 800g/ea is best you can do). --Birchwooda Treehug 15:40, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, it can bump you up on Wisdom (rather easily), and once you're done, fund you some extra lockpicks for Treasure Hunter. :)  I usually don't pick up anything white (other than stones) or blue when farming, and end up leaving with a dozen or two of golds in a few runs.  Depends on luck.  The purples are just some spare cash.  The only interesting drops here are Fiery Blade Axes and Domination Stone Chakrams Wooden Chakrams (which I happen to like on my Mesmer).  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 19:27, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I've been trying to figure this kegspam farming out just from you people talking about it. So based on what it says on Budger's article, you leave Sifhalla into Drakkar Lake, hire him, then run south to Norrhart Domains, east to Bjora Marches, then head north and finally finish the spiral in Jaga Moraine. Sounds like a lot of wasted time just getting there. o.O What's the efficiency of this run, plat/hour kind of thing? &mdash;Dr Ishmael 19:45, 4 November 2008 (UTC)


 * No kidding... I'm not sure if Budger re-appears after you once you use a town. Also, this run is not very efficient for cash, but does produce and nice number of golds per time invested compared to other runs that I know about.  Faster than farming cash and buying unid golds if you want Wisdom.  And you get a bunch of free Glacial Gauntlets in the process.  (I've given up trying to sell them unless I see someone buying by chance...)  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 19:50, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I can confidently say it is more cash-efficient than Raptor farming for festival drops, but otherwise it's just a ton of golds and Glacial Stones, yeah. Mesmer tomes too though. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 21:24, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, forgot tomes and occasional lockpicks. Every time I've leeched off of a Raptor farmer, I sat there wondering to myself "Why do they do this?"  Plus, golds and tomes are not subject to loot scaling. XD RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 21:30, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Well this'll certainly be nice once I shift into Wisdom/Treasure-farming mode (need 60k for last armor, then I'm done with cash-farming). &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 21:39, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Oooooh... I like. Spent about an hour (I think, didn't look at the clock when I started >.>) as a Vaettir Demolitionist; I got 168 ToT Bags, 7 mez tomes, 9 dyes (incl. 1 each black/white/silver), and 29 gold items worth ~10k.  The last 3-4 runs weren't yielding any golds, though - stupid loot fatigue - so I could've stopped sooner to improve efficiency.  The only thing I have to do tomorrow is get a haircut, so I know what I'm doing the rest of the day. :D  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 07:28, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I didn't think gold items were subject to loot scaling. Are there other algorithms at work? RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 08:17, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Loot scaling is based on party size. Loot "fatigue" (duuno if there's an actual/official term for it) is when you farm the same bunch of creatures over and over and they run out of loot to drop.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:36, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I knew that ^_^, I got them mixed up or something... Anyway, I never saw any info on it on the wiki, so there really should be a page.  And if it exists, well, it's not easy to find. :P I never could figure out exactly how it works, and what you need to do to "shake it off" in a particular farming spot. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 19:23, 9 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Anti-farm code is a term commonly used for that. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  19:53, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Yeah, but there's nothing on this wiki that I can find that describes how it works. RoseOfKali 22:04, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * There use to be a screenshot on the farming page, I think, of in-game notice which appears after you farm too much. It say: "You have been killing these same monster over and over, and they are starting to get tired and run out of loot." or something like that [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 23:29, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * That's right, there was. I have that section of my interface turned off, though, because it's super-annoying when you start a new character and it's constantly telling me innane things like "Press 'C' to target the nearest foe."  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 23:48, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * [[Image:Farming warning.jpg|100px]] There we go. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 00:18, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, but how do you "reset" the area? RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 01:24, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * For the Record I do nothing but farm everything till my fucking brain is numb and I have never seen a message like that. All my interface windows are enabled. So Gfg 96.25.96.218 02:35, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The message won't appear for people that can't understand it anyway, Rask. <3 [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:37, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Reduced number from 60 to 32-36???
I have done several glacial farming runs yesterday and today and in every one the entire south spawn of 24 does not appear. I have tried different characters and different computers. Have they nerfed this? Screenshot available upon request. MikuChan 01:47, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * There have been no updates since Thursday, and I keg farmed on Friday with no abnormalities. Are you certain you were playing on Hard Mode? [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 02:08, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Of course I was playing in HM. I am farming it as we speak and every time only the north side spawns. Between 32 and 36 Vaettirs. I just want someone to check this out and see if its a glitch or confirm that they nerfed the spawn.MikuChan 02:15, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Here is the screenshot [[Image:vaettir_spawn.jpg|100px]]MikuChan 02:20, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I shall check right now. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 02:21, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I ran there from Longeye Ledge on my perma-sin, and all 60 Vaettir are where they belong. It is possible that having Budger present would reduce them, but again, that didn't happen to me on Friday. Could there possibly be a quest in Jaga Moraine that reduces the Spectral Vaettir spawn? [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 02:32, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I guess it is possible, but I dont think it was reduced on my first zone, I usually zone back and forth several times and after a certain number of times they arent showing up. So I tried a different character, same thing. On Ele Miku Chan, the one in the screen shot, she has not done any Eye of the North quests and she doesnt have any active either except for the primary quests, Against the destroyers and such. MikuChan 02:35, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I kegfarmed just a couple hours ago, and all 60 were there for around 15 runs. Flames of the Bear Spirit removes the southern Vaettir spawns - you wouldn't have that active, would you?  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 02:55, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I postulate that quest is active by default, although "hidden" until you complete Curse of the Nornbear... in other words, completing that quest "adds" the southern spawn. That's only possible, however, if MikuChan's never gotten the full spawn on her ele. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 02:59, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I have gotten the full spawn before. I may have started to do Northern Allies at some point on her. I don't have any other quests in EotN active besides Against The Destroyers and Northern Allies. A friend has the same situation, we are going to do Blood Washes Blood right now to see if that clears this up. I will also add a note on the wiki for Vaettirs if that is the case. MikuChan 03:06, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Case closed! ;D [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 04:24, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, so it seems the EotN questline is good for something. :) [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:37, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think the quest is causing it, me and my friend are farming there right now.. he doesnt have any primary quests active and they where spawning until about 30 seconds ago. ( they still spawn for me and I have northern allies + tracking the norn bear quests) we've been rezoning between bjora marches and here so theres no way his quests all of a sudden changed.
 * Ok never mind.. the idiot decided to go back to town and "kill two birds with one stone"... not quite sure how he planned to do that but anyways...

(Reset indent) So you have them active, but have you completed the bear/homestead quests before and activated again without finishing Northern Allies? And it's supposed to be a solo farm, not dual. :P Please, sign. RoseOfKali 00:02, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I have never bothered to do any gw:en quests on my assassin, I just took norn bear so the gate to gunnars hold would open.

and we didn't dual farm we where just there at the same time.--Gene195 16:39, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Elementalist farming in HM

 * Geomancer's armor or a shield
 * 20% Enchanting weapon
 * 16 Earth Magic
 * Maintain Obsidian Flesh (using the glyph), Stoneflesh Aura and Mantra of Earth, and you can tank these indefinitely.
 * Group as many Vaettir together as possible, a good goal is 2 large groups on either side of the Shrine, but sometimes they will body block you and you have to kill what you got before moving on (a long/flatbow can be useful here).
 * The last 2 skills can vary, but should not include pure earth damage or AoE that causes scattering. Ebon Battle Standard of Honor and Sliver Armor are a good if used together.  Or you can Arcane Echo one of the Crystals and use Light of Deldrimor as the 4th nuke.

Just felt like posting this here. Maybe someone will find it useful. RoseOfKali 23:51, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I use the assa build that uses bludger blackpower. Its on pvx (A/E shadowbomber). And Cry of pain causes scatter if you use it right/enough. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 10:03, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, assa is too annoying for me to bother with with the marathon run and all, I used the versions with Sliver or LoD. Plus, I wanted the norn points on my ele. :) I can do the HM zone in 5-6 minutes, how long does it take with Budger?  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 18:34, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * 2 minutes for a full clear excluding run time. Lยкץ๒๏ץ talk  18:51, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I take longer, but I somehow cant spam the kegs not as fast as I'm supossed to. I press spacebar and Y, thats drop held item with me. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 18:53, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * All you need to do is stand next to Budger, select him, press spacebar then (in your case) Y then space-Y-space-Y-space-Y etc etc as fast as you can and watch stuff explode Lยкץ๒๏ץ talk  19:01, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Or just bash F1-F4, any button will do, since it swaps to your weapon set making you drop whatever you're holding. The F-keys are easier to reach for ^^ TrinityX 14:47, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

A setup that I currently use that has made my job a little easier (and faster - 4 minute clear time):


 * Geomancer's armor
 * 16 Earth Magic
 * 12 Inspiration Magic - further reduces those occasional -1 and -2 hits the Vaettir sometimes pull off on you
 * 4 Air Magic - use the remaining 6 attribute points and a minor Air rune - this will make your glyph affect 2 spells instead of one, and thus the ability to use it on Obsidian Flesh and Stoneflesh Aura together.
 * An Earth Staff with 20% Enchanting (staff wrapping), 20% Halves Skill Recharge of Earth Spells (inherent), 40% Halves Casting Time of Earth Spells (Adept Staff Head + Aptitude Not Attitude inscription) - this has saved my butt many times when my enchantments were about to expire both at the same time and a 1/2 or 1/4 reduced cast time was the only reason I could put both back up in time, with enough HP left to survive after taking a few hits or getting hexed.
 * If you get good, you can use the Glyph on your attack spells and have it recharge in time for the enchantments, speeding up the killing. Use the Glyph and cast both of your enchants, wait a few seconds until the glyph is 2/3-recharged, then in immediate succession, cast Echo > Crystals > Glyph > Echoed Crystals > Crystal Wave > LoD.  Re-cast the enchantments in the downtime.  Watch the echoed Crystals, as it will only be available for about a second before it turns back to echo.  On the second round of spells your group will die, so you don't even need to use glyph on you Obsidian Flesh the second time, use it plain and it will last long enough to kill the enemies you pulled.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 20:27, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Rose, keg spam is so much better...... No new armor, no heavy thinking required, just some minor abbilities as a perma sin, and some running skill. And these Vaetir are dropping event items like m*th*rf*ck*rs. I had like 15 golds and I had atleast 30 ale and 30 clovers. Its insane! &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Arnout aka The Emperors Angel (contribs).
 * But that means you have to get your severely under-used under-developed sin to there and give up the panty peaking... Oh yeah, and exercise that tilde finger, you m*th*rf*ck*r! <3  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 17:18, 15 March 2009 (UTC)


 * ^ My sin did need new armor for permasin, though. You lierar :< I also find the run to be stupid. And it should be nerfed >.>""""" --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  18:00, 15 March 2009 (UTC)