Talk:Abaddon/Archive 1

Discussion
In the Jokanur Diggings mission, at the end Varesh and that other person says "Praise Abaddon!" Is Abaddon the Outcast God? Also, Varesh is evil!1??!!11! 82.103.134.254 23:17, 22 September 2006 (CDT)

Since we really don't have a clue who or what Abbadon is, should this page even exist yet?--Sykoone 20:54, 23 September 2006 (CDT)


 * You clearly haven't got very far into the Nightfall campaign. At the end of the 3rd mission (Blacktide Den), after you kill General Kahyet, she tells you that Abbadon will destroy you all.  Then, at the end of the Tribunal (dealing with the death of a Kournan General at the hands of a Sunspear), Kormir tells you that Varesh Ossa and General Kahyet worship Abbadon, as well, she tells you that Abbadon is the Sixth god (the outcast). --Curse You 2:33, 24 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Looks like we have a winner. SeeTalk:Guild Wars Nightfall and see this thread on the GWGuru forums. Also, see this concept art of Abaddon. Note the 6 eyes. Margonite, anyone? --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 10:21, 26 September 2006 (CDT)


 * 6 more eyes &mdash; Skuld 10:45, 26 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Heh, he could even be a flippin paragon, got wings :p &mdash; Skuld 10:47, 26 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I think the two concept arts of the 6-eyed giants both show Abaddon, but the concept art that shows him as a Grim Reaper (with scythe) is much older. The one with the wings is the version that was put into the game. I already commented on that concept art in Talk:Margonites. I think the Margonites are former humans who were converted into mini-me look-alikes by Abaddon. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 11:00, 26 September 2006 (CDT)


 * They're not wings. If you look closely you see they're serpentine heads, with a crest down the back of each, much like a dragon's head. And they coil around his body to the ground. Sunyavadin 06:56, 28 September 2006 (BST)


 * Strangely enough, I was looking for similar double-dragon motifs yesterday! There's one in Kaineng Center, on the gate next to the mysterious chest (you must use 'z' to see it), and there's also one during the loading screens for the RoF missions - Abaddon's Mouth, for example :D. There are probably more around, I'll keep a look out for them. Planeforger 01:49, 28 September 2006 (CDT)

Me thinks there is more to the story than what's at hand. But I could be wrong. I think someone is pitting the two against each other. --Karlos 06:19, 28 September 2006 (CDT)

is that where the name came from
Abaddon's Mouth (Mission)
 * Abaddon is a demon of Hebrew origin, I believe. I could be wrong, it could be Mesopotamian or Sumerian, but it's from that general area, which A) would fit with the Nightfall theme and B) Is probably where they named Abaddon's Mouth from at first, then decided to use the name for Nightfall.


 * Abaddon's Mouth most likely refers to the LOCATION Abaddon as opposed to the demon. The second to last "circle" (or layer) of hell is known as Abaddon. There is also a demon who, according to demonology, resides on the same level of hell as Satan (the Final Circle of hell, meaning the Demon Abaddon DOES NOT reside in the Location Abaddon). It is thought that the two rule over hell equally.--Saranis 23:41, 12 February 2007 (CST)

Perhaps the Great Destroyer or something is leading Dhuum, Menzies and Abbadon against the five true gods and the Great Dwarf. and what an idiot dude if you havent made it this far in nightfall dont post here omfg. OBVIOUSLY varesh is evil it said in the dam box that came when you buy it. sure the manual was like "history will tell how Varesh leads her people" and she lead them the wrong way. lol that makes me think all you really read WAS the manual idiot.


 * I don't know whom you are insulting or what your problem is, but please do not use this kind of language here. thanks. --Karlos 04:56, 17 November 2006 (CST)


 * I think its funny that Abaddon is a big demon in this, as some Christian denominations that believe in a rapture see Abaddon as Jesus or another angel of God. But really its just a Hebrew word that means "Destruction" and I suppose it doesn't have to refer to anything like that. --Sagius Truthbarron 08:13, 31 January 2007 (CST)

Dhuum (again)
From Dhuum


 * "Before the time of Grenth, when death was ruled by a cruel and unjust god, there stood a tower and a throne on this very plain. But Grenth rose up and destroyed the one called Dhuum and shattered down his tower, leaving only these storms of chaos as a reminder of the power that once held dominion here ..."

at a stretch, the concept art looks pretty UWish and thronelike &mdash; Skuld 10:27, 26 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I've got two theories. The first theory is that Abbadon, Dhuum, Menzies and probably the Great Destroyer are one entity who's been involved in a lot of sockpuppetry, which may get corroborated or refuted in Nightfall (although Menzies may also be the offspring of Abbadon). It's interesting that Abbadon, Dhuum and Lyssa are all associated with chaos. Maybe Grenth and Lyssa are Dhuum's siblings or offspring, or maybe they just took over his portfolio. The second theory is that, in addition to Abbadon (darkness), Dhuum (death) and Menzies (destruction), there's also a god of decay, disease or corruption who's the enemy of Melandru and possibly a god of madness or cold, ensnaring, ruthless order who's the enemy of Lyssa. -- Gordon Ecker 20:31, 3 October 2006 (CDT)


 * And speaking of sockpuppertry, this guy, previously seen in one of the preview videos, looks like a larger version of the Abyssals and Shadow Overlords from the Shadow Army of Menzies. -- Gordon Ecker 22:07, 14 October 2006 (CDT)

6 eyes
If anyone notices, the Mursatt andm their jade mininos have the exact same 6-eye thing gonig as the above concept art and that fragmented statue seen in the first video of the nightfall preveiw event. Perhaps Abbadon has a connection to the Mursaat.--68.192.188.142 18:39, 28 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Interesting. I didn't even notice that the jade constructs had eyes until now. The Mursaat only have two eye holes in their masks, but they do have greyish, leathery skin like the Margonites, and they could have four more eyes that the masks are covering. Dark Flame Dryders also have six eyes, while Frostfire Dryders have two and Terrorweb Dryders only have one. Doubter's Dryders could have two, four or six eyes, the image isn't large enough to distinguish between eyes and eyespots. -- Gordon Ecker 19:14, 2 October 2006 (CDT)
 * However, the Mursaat are tryin to prevent the opening of the door of komalie, which indicates that they are enemies of the titans, who are servants of abaddon.--Devils Apprentice 23:01, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeah, that theory was pretty much refuted after the release of Nightfall. -- Gordon Ecker 23:47, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

I'd say that the 6 eyes come from the 6 gods, he is the 6th god.Zorgix 23:14, 1 April 2007 (CDT)

Background story on Abbadon
I haven't been around much, so no clue if the English-speaking/reading community already learned of this. Anyways, the following is info from NCTaiwan (http://guildwars.nctaiwan.com/gameInfo/intro_03.asp):

(first three paragraphs are generic stuff about Elona that we already know about, so I didn't translate them. Starting from the fourth paragraph).

The nemisis of Campaign Three is the forgotten sixth god of creation - Abbadon. He and his five other brethens: Balthazar, Melandru, Dwayna, Lyssa, and Grenth created this world and the creatures. Abbadon's original job is to rule over knowledge and water, but soon he became everyone's abyss of pain and nightmare.

Abbadon originally represented the gods to give the precious magic to the sentinent races. But due to his limitless giving, it causes humans and the other races to abuse this gift. Thus, the other gods of creation attempted to use the bloodstone to split his power into four great elements, to suppress Abbadon's magic so it doesn't get abused. Abbadon's of course not happy, but the other 5 gods ignored his opposition. Angered, Abbadon gathered his strongest followers, the Margonites, to attack the weak spot of the Rift (not sure if this actually means The Rift, it literally said "world gap/rift/fissure" in Mandarin). He wanted to overthrow the gods and create his own dynasty. Abbadon was so powerful, even two gods together could not stop him. Finally, under the siege by the five gods, Abbadon was defeated and imprisioned, never to be involved in worldly matters again. The location of his battle with the five gods became known as the "Mouth of Torment" (literal translation: Torment's Mouth, not suer what official English will be).

After taking out Abbadon, the five gods also routed the Margonites. Additionally, they attempted to remove Abbadon's name from all monuments and holy scrolls, so that Abbadon will be forgotten by the people. (PanSola's note: eh, so how come there's still a LOCATION named Abbadon's Mouth???)

Nowadays, civilized nations only worship the Five gods, but a group of pagans secretely follow what they refer to as the Sixth god - a god who lost his power long ago. The pagans deeply believe this legend: thounds of years ago, their spiritual vanguard the Margonites had a sad but vailent battle in northern Elona, the power of the battle swept through the plains and turn it into a wasteland, which people nowadays know as the Crystal Desert. The Margonites back then used the power given by the sixth god to wreck hovac, destroy shrines, defile holy places, and killed everything in their path. Even though they had strong divine power to back them, the Margonites finally could not escape the fate of being destroyed. Legend says the sixth god finally is imprisioned in the Realm of Torment. Now some of the wise have noticed signs that says the fallen god might be returning to this world to wreck hovak again. Even though his name has been erased from all historical scrools and monuments, it isn't the end of the story. His loyal servents has been sharpening their blades, practicing their spells, preparing to welcome back the god that has been forgotten and abandoned. They continue to believe, just like night follows the day, He will eventually return to this world. The Margonites bring their will which obeys the great evil power, and paitently wait for the day of Nightfall.

- 19:03, 20 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Blah, actually paragraph 1 does have new info: Campaign 3 will take place in two different locations: the continent of Elona and the Realm of Torment. The continent of Elona is a northern Africa themed place with Arabian architecture and elements.  "Tormenting Hell" is a different realm that doesn't exist in the real world.  - 19:09, 20 October 2006 (CDT)


 * I just crossed out a huge section of translation because I just realized the proper English version is already available in the Guild Wars Nightfall Prerelease Bonus Pack as part of the main article. Also I just found out about Realm of Torment from GuildWiki, so editing that too. - 20:18, 20 October 2006 (CDT)


 * I guess that Abaddon isn't Dhuum, but nothing so far has ruled out the possibility that Menzies might be Abaddon's sockpuppet, and the giant Assassin version of an Abyssal suggests that the Shadow Army will make an appearance. -- Gordon Ecker 01:29, 22 October 2006 (CDT)


 * I would argue that text evidence in FoW tend to suggest Menzies is a free entity, as opposed to being imprisoned in the Realm of Torment. I also find it more likely to consider the Lord of Destruction has powers roughly equal to his half-brother, whereas the Lord of Secrets cannot be beaten by 2 gods working together.  Not to say it's impossible, but from available information it seems unlikely to me. - 10:37, 22 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Either way, we should find out in less than a week. Abaddon's backstory makes him sound kind of like a mad scientist. He started out with a great invention, shared it with the world, but was too arrogant to admit, in the face of overwhelming evidence, that teaching everyone to cast Invoke Devastation, Rain of Colorless Fire and Summon Great Old One was probably a bad idea, took it personally when they cleaned up his mess and then basically threw the biggest temper tantrum in the history of Tyria. -- Gordon Ecker 15:35, 22 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Actually, at least according to the source I translated from, the gift of Magic is still a gift from all the gods to the sentinent species. Abbadon was merely the designated distributor in charge of handing out the goods, it wasn't his invention. - 15:58, 22 October 2006 (CDT)


 *  - I Dunno PanSola... so far we have, Balthazar (Warrior), Melandru(Ranger), Dwayna(Monk), Lyssa(Mesmer), and Grenth(Necromancer). I believe Abbadon was probably the god of "Elementalist" type magic. But in its old form it wasnt elemental and was probably alot more powerful. So imagine an Ele Who had only 2 stats to put skills into(Magic and Storage), and he could spam Metearodgertningsteam.... So the other gods decided to Nerf him... he didnt like the idea so he revolted. 5 on 1 he lost and got nerfed by anet. Hence the cause of Nightfall (and indirectly all Guild wars games) was a god level nerf. --Midnight08 15:31, 26 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Here's my theory: Like Midnight says, Abbadon was originally the Elementalist god. When the other gods used the Bloodstone to split the powers of magic into their respective elements they each took a n element of magic. Fire for Balthazar, Air for Dwayna, Earth for Melandru, Water for Grenth and the power to contain pure magic energies (Energy Storage) for Lyssa. It fits with the gods blessings at Canthan shrines. --Wil 15:46, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I disagree with Midnight and Wil. Abbadon was the God of Water and Knowledge.  Water is one of the four classic elements of the Elementalists.  Grenth is only the god of cold, not water, and hydromancers worship Grenth only because Abbadon is out of the picture.  This is a strong evidence against the theory that the other gods only each take up an element after Abbadon's defeat.  The splitting of magic isn't a split between the four elements, but a split between Preservation, Destruction, Aggression, and Denial.  The idea is no one can be a Mesmer, Monk, Necromancer, and Elementalist simultaneously (only one primary and one secondary profession).  Get your lore straight d-: - 19:43, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I was just going off of what I know from reading what you posted. Where did you learn about the Preservation, Destruction, Aggression and Denial thing? That sounds like a much richer mythology. --Wil 23:43, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
 * That's part of the original Guild Wars lore sourrounding the Bloodstones found in the manual. - 23:59, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
 * You want me to find my manual from Prophecies? You must be kidding :P Oh well, time for a search. --Wil 00:14, 27 October 2006 (CDT)


 * PanSola - just curious, does the Taiwan version translate to "him" "his" etc, or could it be translating to a more gender nuetral meaning? The only reason I ask is that during the GWN launch party thingy, they played a making of the game video full of interviews with the designers, etc.  One off-hand comment that was made was that Nightfall had a clear nemesis, and in the end the player meats her.  Now, I never followed up on this (forgot while asking other questions), and perhaps I even heard this wrong or the developer wanted to throw off fans that saw the video - but I was curious as you've seen the translation if those references from the Taiwaneese manual could translate to either "her" or a gender neutral statement. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:25, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Of course, if it can mean "her", then I want to be the first to make the totally unsubstantiated wild leap/guess that Abadddon's earthly Tyrian form is that of Gwen. LOL.  --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:29, 26 October 2006 (CDT)


 * The source of my translation use the third-person pronoune specifically used for dieties, so it's actually gender-neutral. - 19:43, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I just picked up the english version at Best Buy. It looks like the reference to "her" in the making of video may have actually been a reference to the corrupt ruler mentioned on the box, and not the god.  Which makes more sense. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 20:11, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

I wonder if we are to look on Abaddon as Evil, Corrupted yes, but evil? the god has its place in the pantheon. and it seems that the other gods were just greedy, not liking to see the races of the world become as powerfull as them. Abaddon was generous, that´s hardly a vice. what would have happened after his release. Eternal nightfall, or temporary (but long) nightfall?JFSOCC 08:12, 15 November 2006 (CST)
 * I don't really think we can look on him as an evil god. Corrupted and chaotic, yes; but, not evil. He never does anything so malicious that none of the other gods would do. Balthazar and Grenth would smite unbelievers just the same as Abaddon and they are just as greedy and self-righteous. Hell, Grenth smote Dhuum from his throne in the Underworld due to a lust for the power the dark diety held (it is said that he did it to free the world from Dhuum's evil, but let's face it: Grenth is not a very nice diety himself). To single out Abaddon as the sole "evil" god of the 6 is just plain opinionated in my view and un-needed unless you're going to start categorizing all the gods in this way. I say at best, categorize the gods thusly: Neutral, Chaotic, Chaotic Neutral, Empathetic. Or something along those lines. — Jyro X [[Image:Darkgrin.jpg|25px]] 08:53, 15 November 2006 (CST)
 * Agreed, but replace Empathetic with both Apathetic and Sympathetic. --Valentein 11:38, 28 December 2006 (CST)

"According to the Margonite Apostate, Abaddon attained his power by deposing an unnamed earlier god." so would this in fact be a link to the original elementalist god? I guess it's been bugging me since I first arrived at Temple of Ages that there was no elementalist god present or that it seemed to missing from the gameplay.--70.242.98.201 03:05, 29 January 2007 (CST)
 * Read up on the lore, specifically Bloodstone and Blessing. In short, Elementalists derive their power from every deity. --220.233.103.77 04:02, 29 January 2007 (CST)
 * 'Bout time someone said this. It's pretty straight forward. Fire from Balth, air form Dwayna, water from grenth (or ice, i suppose) earth from Melandru, and energy storage from Lyssa. This Energy storage from Lyssa is a but speculative, based on other classes that involve energy whenever Lyssa is involved. -Kumdori 18:04, 1 February 2007 (CST)
 * I don't see how it's speculative when you buy the Energy Storage +1 blessing from a Lyssa's Muse --220.233.103.77 10:16, 3 February 2007 (CST)

WTF?! Level 30?
WTF with Abaddon being level 30??? Dragon Lich is level 30, Glint is level 31, Kuunavang is level 30, Rotscale is 30. And they're all NOT gods. Abaddon is a god and deserve to be at least level 35. Just strange that some dark god can be defeated by some mortals... Lightblade 12:28, 31 October 2006 (CST)


 * This isn't the first instance of mortals killing a "dark god" in a fantasy setting . -- James Sumners 15:57, 30 November 2006 (CST)

You have to remember Abbadon is also Chained Down, severly limiting his powers. AND he was weakened by the five gods in the first place. So it kinda makes sense.~Kijik


 * Abaddon Breaks Free of his chains prior to the fight Kijik.--Saranis 23:44, 12 February 2007 (CST)


 * He also may have been temporarily weakened from cracking the walls of his prison, pushing into Tyria and causing Nightfall. -- Gordon Ecker 00:28, 3 November 2006 (CST)
 * Circularity: you can not defeat a God, unless it is dark, false, God. Circularity, again: you can not defeat a God, unless you are a God or you become a God in the very act of defeating a God. Think this is not a logical argument, just a fallacy, much like when you say speed=distance/time, time=distance/speed and distance=speed/time, you give an argument for what is each of the three without giving any argument for holding the system or believe.--mariano 08:55, 4 March 2007 (CST)


 * I don't know what you're talking about. It's a linear argument. Abaddon used to be really powerful. Abaddon was defeated and imprisoned the other five gods of Tyria. The power of the gods of Tyria is apparently eternal, but the gods themselves are not, and can and have been killed and replaced in the past on at least two occasions prior to Abaddon's defeat. During the final battle, Abaddon was outright invulnerable except when he was bound with chains forged by Balthazar. Abaddon was exerting his influence a lot during the Nightfall campaign. The avatars gave Kormir the ability to absorb Abaddon's power after he was defeated. These are all established canon. I can think of three explanations consistant with these established facts:
 * Circumstances made Abaddon a lot weaker in Nightfall's final battle than he would be in normal circumstances.
 * Abaddon was at full strength, but the gods of Tyria are glass cannons.
 * Abaddon was at full strength, but the avatars secretly provided a power boost prior to the final battle against Abaddon.
 * Each of these three possibilities is plausible and consistant with the established canon. -- Gordon Ecker 21:32, 4 March 2007 (CST)
 * "Unless it is a dark, false God", you could almost day that Abaddon is a dark, flase God really. "Unless you are a God", Balthazar is a got neh? "Or you become a God in the very act of defeating a god", just like Kormir!. You happy now?--Devils Apprentice 22:37, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Abaddon does look kind of like the great and powerful Oz. -- Gordon Ecker 00:56, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

You mean, you /want/ Abaddon to do more damage than he currently does? Kessel 23:42, 22 November 2006 (CST)

1. when abbadon was out casted he was weakened. 2.the lvl does not mean if hes stronger or weaker Zorgix 23:18, 1 April 2007 (CDT)

Split?
I think this article needs to be split into the following:

Abaddon and Abaddon (Monster) or Abaddon (Boss)

Anyone else agree? — Jyro X 07:06, 15 November 2006 (CST)


 * Nah. That would be two articles for the same thing. We have numerous precedences of NPCs who are both ingame characters and lore characters with a big background story, and we have split none of those: Glint, Lich Lord, Shiro, Prince Rurik, ... and many more. Let's try to keep the information together. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 09:08, 15 November 2006 (CST)


 * Well then it should at least be edited to look like the other articles. I'll work on re-organizing the information now. — Jyro X [[Image:Darkgrin.jpg|25px]] 11:40, 15 November 2006 (CST)

dude level aitn a factor in anything.....glint is easy as hell easier than the rotscale and kuunvang is harder that shiro. OMFG LOL.--Shade Murtagh 00:45, 24 November 2006 (CST)

Dance
Does anyone have any screenshots of the dance mentioned in the Trivia section? Or a link? Kessel 23:42, 22 November 2006 (CST)
 * I removed it. It's not true. And it was an anon edit. — Jyro X [[Image:Darkgrin.jpg|25px]] 01:53, 23 November 2006 (CST)
 * Thanks; that was pretty much my suspicion. I couldn't imagine Abaddon lifting his hands to do a Saturday Night Fever across the eyes. >> Kessel 03:32, 23 November 2006 (CST)

actually i went and fought abaddon alone and stood on the bridge and danced and he did the "raise the roof move" then did the warrior dance but all the screenshots i took are very dark if you want me to post them anyway just ask(dsnesnintendo)
 * Oh my god it's true. I'll get a video cause it's freaking hilarious! - BeXoR  [[Image:Bexor.png]] 14:00, 24 November 2006 (CST)

Added the dance information back into the trivia. As out-of-character as that appears to be for Abaddon, it's the coolest easter egg that I know of in GW. Try it yourself if you need proof, or see these screen shots. Jinkas 14:15, 24 November 2006 (CST)
 * 2 megish video (before youtube converted it anyway): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jozvyKAKgfQ After I died the animation repeated and my camerawork got a bit shoddy so I just cut it off there. - BeXoR  [[Image:Bexor.png]] 15:04, 24 November 2006 (CST)

lol i was the anon who put it in, should have provided a screenshot though.
 * Heh, dont think a screenshot would of proved it, could of been an easy c&p in photoshop/gimp. very nice find Xeon 01:17, 6 December 2006 (CST)

Best screen I've seen (and is now my desktop): http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/DragonAxe/abaddon_dance.jpg --Dragonaxe 15:31, 6 January 2007 (CST)

Great Destroyer
Abaddon hmm hmm hmm... --FireFox  01:01, 3 December 2006 (CST)

You got served!
Confirmed. Can't believe I didn't notice that before. - BeXoR   19:18, 3 December 2006 (CST)
 * I've done it 4 times now and the notice hasn't popped up a single time for me. Screenshot please. — Jyro X [[Image:Darkgrin.jpg|25px]] 19:08, 5 December 2006 (CST)
 * try on the bridge of ghosts, funniest shit ever. Nice one anet Xeon 23:59, 5 December 2006 (CST)
 * http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/3277/yougotservedle0.jpg - BeXoR  [[Image:Bexor.png]] 01:12, 6 December 2006 (CST)

Statue in Gate of Torment?
About this quote in the article; "This excerpt from the Scriptures of Abaddon can be found as an inscription on the empty Statue pedestal of Abaddon in the Gate of Torment" Now I have searched Gate of Torment, and there is quite clearly no statues anywhere. Now, it is possible that the person got their location's mixed up, so I want someone to get the actual location of the statue. --Curse You 18:30, 5 December 2006 (CST)

I think they might have meant Gate of Madness (Mission). Only place I know of that has that. Cutsman 15:37, 6 December 2006 (CST)


 * Yep, it's Gate of Madness. It was pretty late at night when I originally posted it and I got the names confused. -- Gordon Ecker 02:53, 13 December 2006 (CST)

Abaddon from?
Abaddon's appearance bears striking similarities to Andross, the main villain from Star Fox. I really think the inspiration could of come from more then one place, for instance. Zelda, Ocarina of Time (Bongo-Bongo) (Bongo-Bongo2) and another one i can remember is Super Smash Brothers, with the last boss being a pair of hands (Hands). Xeon 01:35, 6 December 2006 (CST)
 * Both of those are from games released after Star Fox 64, and were probably based on Andross (Super Smash Brothers espesially). --Curse You 02:07, 6 December 2006 (CST)
 * Also the screen of the two hands from Super Smash Brothers is actually a cheat/hidden feature of the game. The boss is actually just one hand (called "Master Hand"). --Curse You 02:09, 6 December 2006 (CST)
 * Heh, i knew there was only one hand in the last mission, only picture i could find quickly. Yep, unless there is another game that this could of been based off, id say your right. Xeon 02:34, 6 December 2006 (CST)
 * I was just rewording someone else's statement, because it was too certain before. "Abaddon's apearance is possibly influcenced by the Star Fox games' final boss, Andross." was how it was worded. I didn't play computer games as a child so I can't really say, :P - BeXoR  [[Image:Bexor.png]] 04:55, 6 December 2006 (CST)
 * How is that certain? It says possibly influenced, which makes it a speculation. --Curse You 20:26, 6 December 2006 (CST)
 * Just because they look the same, doesn't mean it's influenced by something. You can't deny the pic looks similar though. And it's usually the norm on wiki to leave opinionated statements out. What I replaced it with isn't making a claim on the motives of the game designers, just saying, hey they look similar! - BeXoR  [[Image:Bexor.png]] 22:03, 6 December 2006 (CST)
 * If by similarity you mean "they're both floating heads" then sure. But beyond that they share nothing in common. The claim is superfluous and doesn't add anything but subjective opinion. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.51.233.181 (contribs) 07:05, 15 December 2006.
 * Which is why its in trivia... -- Xeon 03:58, 28 December 2006 (CST)
 * The meaning of his name is trivia. The extra /dance feature is trivia. Saying that you think he is similar to Andross from Starfox because of the floating head thing is not trivia. The first two things are *facts*, yours is merely *personal opinion*. Do you see the difference? &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.23.223.205 (contribs) 03:17, 1 January 2007.
 * You statement is "merely" "*personal opinion*." You don't seem to get how guildwiki works.  It is not the same as Wikipedia, since it is about a game, and so the only way to confirm information is by playing the game, or by making assumptions.
 * Look at Dance. There has not been any official statements regarding the source of the dances.  However, the article has opinions that have been agreed upon as to what dance they are most likely representing.  This was done through inspection of how the dances look.  The same can be applied to the resemblance of Abaddon to Andross.
 * You, an unregistered user who has made 1 total edit to guildwiki, obviously need to know that much of what is in the articles (especially in Trivia), is opinions. Also, next time, sign your comments.  --Curse You 04:17, 11 January 2007 (CST)
 * Andross came many years after Naga Sotuva, the fourth boss in Ninja Gaiden 2. Naga Sotuva is the original inspiration for the disembodied head/hands boss, and the progenitor of the Andross boss, as well as the Abaddon boss. To say that it was inspired by Andross is incorrect, as Naga Sotuva clearly came first by nearly a decade. --Roberto Benigni
 * What is Ninja Gaiden 2? Young people like me don't know about old games like that. >< Entropy 17:32, 1 February 2007 (CST)
 * That's what makes it trivia of course. --Roberto Benigni
 * Though it may be true that Naga Sotuva (who I could not find anything about on Wikipedia) came first, it is also true that the Starfox 64 game and therefore Andross, is much wider known. I am seriously doubtful that the inspiration for Andros even came from Naga Sotuva, it is possible that the game designers just thought, "Hey let's make this guy a floating head, that would be cool!"  In fact, in many old games, they made bosses giant floating heads, probably because it was easier than making the whole body. --Curse You 02:31, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * Play the game and see for yourself, it exists. And Ninja Gaiden is a very well known game, particularly known for it's gritty style, demon-slaying, and high difficulty; much of which is comparable to Nightfall. Whereas Starfox is much more simplistic, easier to beat, and exhibits very "kiddy" cartoon characters. It actually more likely(and makes more sense) that the people who made this game played and took inspiration from games like Ninja Gaiden than Starfox. --Roberto Benigni.
 * That's just your opinion though >.> Entropy 03:19, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * So you saying that Ninja Gaiden having a gritty style and demon-slaying is merely an opinion? That Starfox having cartoon characters is only an opinion? Those are aesthetics, not opinions. --Roberto Benigni
 * You misinterpret what I say. You state: "It actually more likely(and makes more sense) that the people who made this game played and took inspiration from games like Ninja Gaiden than Starfox." That is purely opinion. Entropy 03:26, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * So you are suggesting that it is less valid than any other opinion here? --Roberto Benigni
 * Yes, and Curse You seems to agree with me. It's not so much about validity as it is...plausibility. Entropy 03:34, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * Just because you and one other disagree doesn't make it any less plausible. You are entitled to your opinions, as am I. --Roberto Benigni

Resetting indent. (NOTE: Be aware I use the original Japanese names in the following statements as that's what is natural to me.) Should I mention that the characters in Star Fox talk like normal people and cuss in the original Japanese versions? (Especially Falco. :P) Just because you think anthropomorphic animal characters are "kiddy" does not make it fact, and the dialogue is not in the original. As much as I like Ninja Ryuukenden / Ninja Gaiden, Star Fox 64 is probably a more well-known game than Ninja Ryuukenden 2, and Andorf a more well-known or memorable villain. Was Ninja Ryuukenden even that popular in the US? I know Ninja Gaiden was highly praised, but not sure about the old series. Capcom 03:33, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * The cussing or maturity has nothing to do with it. The aesthetics, that is to say, the visual style, is by far more comparable to a game where demon slaying is a main feature of the game, than one where cartoon animals pilot blocky polygon space ships.
 * Very opinionated and biased statement. "Cartoon animals" once again brings up the point you find anthropomorphic animals to be "kiddy", which is an opinion. "Blocky polygon space ships"? Have you even seen Star Fox 64 or the later games? Don't bring graphics into this; I don't think Ninja Ryuukenden 2's graphics would be considered better. The "style" has no relevance whatsoever on where references can come from. Once again, I really like Ninja Ryuukenden / Ninja Gaiden. And while Ninja Ryuukenden 2 might be the most popular of the original series, it does not appear to reach anywhere near the level of recognition or popularity of Star Fox 64. That being said, I don't even feel Abaddon was based on Andorf. Unless there's something specific linking them, I see no reason to not consider this all a coincidence. Capcom 17:33, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * They are cartoon animals. I don't see how that is being biased in any way. It has nothing to do with something being "kiddy" or not. That is quite simply what they are. They could chop their heads off and bleed all over the place for all I care. They'd still just be cartoon animals chopping eachothers heads off and bleeding all over the place. Ninja Gaiden on the other hand involves very human participants, like Guild Wars does. Human participants using medieval weapons to destroy demons, like Nightfall. Starfox is about cartoon animals in a futuristic setting. If Starfox makes more sense to some of you as inspiration, then I guess that is your prerogative. Personally, I find more aesthetic similarities with Ninja Gaiden than Starfox.
 * How about this, rather than arguing about something that just ends up being opinions, lets look at some facts. By this I mean, lets look at the boss' mechanics.
 * Abaddon, is defeated by first disabling his hands, and then by beating up his face, many times.
 * Andross (in Starfox 64, not including the "brain" fight), is defeated by first disabling his hands (which is permanent), then by beating up his face.
 * Now unfortunately, I don't know how you defeat Naga Sotuva, so I'll need someone who knows to fill that part in. --Curse You 20:05, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * The claim is that it's "appearance bears striking similarities". *Appearance*, hence, aesthetics, visuals. It says nothing about gameplay. I see no point in arguing about gameplay, as it is not what is being claimed on the main article. --Roberto Benigni
 * Well, in a way, the mechanics of the character are a part of their appearance. Also, you completely avoided my request. --Curse You 01:19, 3 February 2007 (CST)
 * You seem to have difficulty grasping the concept of aesthetics. Gameplay mechanics are not about appearance, they are about function. Either way, it doesn't matter anymore :) --Roberto Benigni

The multipart boss is a bit of a video game staple. Look at Lavos, for instance. I think it's pretty darn stupid to argue about which one actually inspired the game, given that it is a general trope. It's like saying "the game groups characters into a party, just like Lord of the Rings." Now, if Andross has anything specific other than the head-and-hands thing going for him, then maybe this is useful trivia... If not, the note should really just say something about that kind of boss in general. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 20:19, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * I have to agree. Lavos is just as valid as Andross or Naga Sotuva. Feel free to edit him in at your leisure. --Roberto Benigni
 * Like the current version? &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 20:55, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * I am certain that is a happy medium we can all agree on! Thank you for your input! --Roberto Benigni
 * What happened to bongo bongo :( I didnt see this conversation getting so long when i first posted about it, dam -- Xeon
 * I think we agreed that he was most likely influenced by Andross (since the game he's in came out only a few years after Starfox 64), and so was not worth mentioning. --Curse You 01:19, 3 February 2007 (CST)

Bottom line: I don't agree that Abaddon was influenced by, for example, Andross. And it's very easy to explain why: we know absolutely nothing about what games the designers played, or what time period they were most actively gaming. I myself have never heard of Andross, despite having played about an hour of StarFox 64. I just plain didn't play anything from Nintendo for any noteworthy amount of time, other than the tons of SNES I played over a decade ago. I know plenty of people who can tell you all about Final Fantasy 3 or the Sword of Mana series, but don't know anything about FFX or Kingdom Hearts, and plenty of people who all the modern stuff but never even touched a non-3D game. People have wildly different awareness of games depending on what video-game era they were most actively gaming in. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 10:38, 3 February 2007 (CST)
 * How did you manage to play Starfox 64 without hearing about Andross? I think they mention him in the cinematic for the first planet you go to.  In fact, on the back of the box for the game it even says, "The Lylat system has been invaded!  Join Fox McCloud and his Star Fox team as they fight to save the galaxy from the clutches of the evil Andross."  You must have been completely ignoring what was being said.
 * The fact of the matter is, that some of the game developers, in order to be old enough to work at ArenaNet, must be at least old enough to have played the N64. As well, Starfox 64 is a very well known game (for people who have played a N64) that is often associated with the N64.  Also, anyone from Europe who thinks, "well I don't know about it" use your head.  The majority of the people working at ArenaNet are most likely Americans (due to the headquarters being in America), and so would have been able to get a N64 when they were young.
 * Now just because you have never heard of Andross, does not mean that he is not widely known. I could most likely go to my school and ask almost anyone about Starfox, and they would probably know what I was talking about. --Curse You 13:58, 3 February 2007 (CST)
 * Star Fox 64 is quite possibly the worst example you could use, as it belonged to the Nintendo 64, the least successful console at the time; mostly due to the fact it had insisted on using cartidges while all other consoles had moved on to the more efficient and popular compact disk. Just because it was popular among your friends at school does not make it a worldwide phenomenon. --Roberto Benigni
 * Or you could bother to actually look stuff up like I did. "Acclaimed by many reviewers, Star Fox 64 was one of the top-selling games of 1997, second only to Mario Kart 64." (Wikipedia) I'd hardly say the game wasn't well-known most places. Both of them have reasons you could consider Abaddon being based on them: Naga Sotuva uses water (which Abaddon was the former god of) and Andorf is much more similar to him in terms of design and battling. However, there's also the fact Star Fox 64 IS a more well-known game, and that Andorf is THE main villain in the game (and in fact, most Star Fox games) while Naga Sotuva had no real relevance to Ninja Ryuukenden 2's story, was simply "the fourth boss" (I didn't even remember the thing), and never appeared again. You just seem like someone that hates Star Fox with a passion and don't want it listed in the article. This argument is ridiculous, I might add. Capcom 16:10, 3 February 2007 (CST)
 * Being a top selling game for one of the least popular consoles at the time still isn't saying much. I have nothing against Star Fox. In fact, I absolutely loved the original. I quite simply see very little in common with Guild Wars. Personally, I'd say it's a few others around here who seem absolutely incapable of letting it go. It's a gaming cliche, and the "similarity" shouldn't have been put up in the first place. --Roberto Benigni
 * Unless the statement I quoted is written incorrectly, it's saying Star Fox 64 was the second most selling game of 1997 ACROSS ALL SYSTEMS. But whatever. I'm seriously tired of this inane shit and am stopping. Capcom 16:26, 3 February 2007 (CST)
 * Well, at the very least we agree this argument is completely asinine. --Roberto Benigni
 * You're really missing the point when you say "old enough to have played the N64." Here's an example: as I got older, I stopped playing console games, period, then I slowly got back into consoles, but strictly as a means of face-to-face multiplayer gaming with my friends. I'm not saying my experience is representative of everyone, but it is representative of the fact that your interests change as you age. I'm way younger than most of the people working for ANet (assuming they all actually come in with some experience and a college degree), but I've never played more than a few hours of N64 -- everyone I knew thought of it as a rather crappy console and used it mostly for a few big multiplayer Nintendo games (Smash Bros., Goldeneye, a little bit of StarFox). As far as design goes, the head-and-hands boss is absolutely DERIVATIVE by the time it shows up in StarFox 64. It's a video game cliche, so saying "this is a video game cliche" is really all you need here. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 15:56, 3 February 2007 (CST)

Dhuum
"Abaddon is dead. And I assure you, Grenth will not make the mistake that the other gods did. We will not hear from Abaddon again in this lifetime... or the next."

As stated by Olias, which brings up the question: was Dhuum one of the five orginal gods that imprisoned Abbadon (since Grenth wasn't)? And if so, why would abbadon be elague with one of the ones that exiled him?--TheDrifter 18:03, 4 January 2007 (CST)


 * Since Grenth was (probably) the god of death at least as far back as 48 BE, a more likely explanation is that Grenth was in favor of death, but was overruled by the other gods in favor of Exile. -- Gordon Ecker 01:28, 21 January 2007 (CST)

Dhuum WAS the original god of death and was overthrown by grenth afterwards.
 * That much is known, I think the main question hinges on after what. When Abaddon was exiled, was the current God of Death Dhuum or Grenth? It's implied that, not counting Abaddon himself, Dhuum is the most recent god to be overthrown. However, Grenth's scriptures indicate that he was the god of death at least since 48 BE (as Gordon mentioned above). Since Abaddon was only exiled around the Exodus, it's most likely that Grenth was currently the god of death. --Valentein 12:28, 30 June 2007 (CDT)

maybe thats the reason y Dhumm was exiled. ok heres the scenario, taken from greek myths: Abaddon likes magic and wants the world 2 have it back. Dhumm agrees. Melandru and Lyssa r saying no no no they abused it they cant have it and Dwayna being the leader is watching from the sidelines. now remember Abaddon can take on two gods but not more then that so maybe after the 3 goddess, dwayana,melandru, and lyssa banished abaddon tehy got mad at Dhumm for helping abaddon, paving the way 4 grenth. -Chris of Krtya 1:55 AM CDT July 07 2007

Trigon
anyone see any parallels between this guy nd Trigon from DC comics? 68.123.65.249 02:18, 6 January 2007 (CST)
 * I sure do. See here. It sure does seem to make more sense than Andross.
 * Oh Andross, what a cahracter. I remeber beating him when I was like, 6 or 7.--Nog64Talk [[Image:Word_of_Healing.jpg|19px]] 23:18, 20 February 2007 (CST)

Items Dropped?
Just thought this should be added for the heck of it: Abaddon dropped me a pretty nice skeleton shield, I have screenies


 * That's fine to add on the talk page, but weapon drops don't get added onto articles unless they're specific to that monster. - BeXoR  [[Image:Bexor.png]] 17:56, 7 January 2007 (CST)

When I killed abbadon, he dropped 106 gold. It was rather amusing. Count Coolio 23:30, 5 February 2007 (CST)

My brother got orange dye! -- Dashface  20:52, 12 March 2007 (CDT)

Have dropped Aegis to me blue[and crappy] Korineczek 02:28, 26 March 2007 (CDT).

He dropped a margonite key for me one time, dont remember what I got when I used it though. Tdub415

Setup For A New Campaign?

 * First off, sure, Abaddon is dead. But what about Dhuum and the Menzies with balthazar's half brother?  This is looking like a diablo scenario to me.


 * Secondly, only two of the bloodstones are accounted for. Where are the other two, and the keystone?  Something this significant to the Tyrian world should not be overlooked.  I mean, the exodus happened shortly after their creation.


 * Thirdly, does anyone know what happened to the Sceptor of Orr? From what I can see, it just "disappears" prior to the volcano erupting after closing the Door of Komalie.  It was mentioned in Nightfall on the destruction of its sister, Staff of the Mists, but that's all that is heard of it.

Van Wark 21:01, 4 March 2007 (CST)
 * Three of the five bloodstones are accounted for, there's also one in the Southern Shiverpeaks, probably in the Ice Caves of Sorrow mission. The Abaddon's Mouth bloodstone is suspected to be the keystone. As for the Scepter of Orr, the Lich appears to be wielding it in the Gate fo Madness mission, but this could be reused graphics, like Khilbron holding the scepter in Sanctum Cay before anyone actually hands him the scepter. -- Gordon Ecker 21:43, 4 March 2007 (CST)
 * Dhuum in pestering Grenth in the Underworld, but could be up to something else. Menzies is always fighting with his half-brother Balthazar, but may be hiding something.
 * There has been some debate over weather there is a fourth Bloodstone in the North Shiverpeaks (see talk:Bloodstone). I doubt that there will ever be confirmation of all five locations.
 * The Scepter of Orr was taken by Glint. How do I know?  She gives you that speach then tells you to get out of the volcano, then probably teleported it to her lair.  After all, she proved her ability to teleport things in the Dragon's Lair mission and she is kind of a powerful, weird being. --Curse You 01:24, 13 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Three of the five bloodstone locations are confirmed: Bloodstone Fen in Maguuma, the bloodstone they were going to sacrifice Evennia on in the South Shiverpeaks, and the one that you need to kill the Lich on in Abaddon's Mouth. There's speculation on the other two: One is believed to be on the top of Anvil Rock (see talk page), and I believe another is rumored to be in Maguuma --Gimmethegepgun 02:03, 9 July 2007 (CDT)

Unless im wrong, the RoF exploded, and im assuming no1 picked up the staff. Exploding volcanoes+cheap flimsy plastic (and from orr i mean every1 nos about there cheap 9cents child labout plastic making plants) staff = melted destroyed staff. - Chris of Krtya 1:58 AM July 1007

Stats?
Does Abaddon have a certain amount of life or health? This would be good to know. Does he have energy? anything that helps. But health is most important.
 * Would be really hard to figure out an accurate amount. --DEATHWING 21:34, 24 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Not really. Destroy the monoliths, flag the heroes away, screenshot his life bar, unload a bunch of Discords, Wastrel's Worries, Words of Censure or Obsidian Flames on him and take another screenshot before he becomes untargetable again and compare the screenshots to get rough estimates of his total health and how much damage is inflicted by destroying the monoliths. Measuring his energy total would probably need a co-ordinated team of mesmers. -- Gordon Ecker 22:08, 24 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Abaddons health is massive. Running people seems to indicate that he has around 10000 health. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.78.154.203 (contribs).

Source???
Was just wondering what is the source of the following text:

'When the gods gave the sentient races of Tyria the gift of magic, it was Abaddon who represented the gods and handled the actual distribution. However, Abaddon gave out this gift a little too freely and indiscriminately, which fueled the greed that caused the sentient races to abuse it and wage massive wars against each other.' 'King Doric went to Arah and begged the gods to bring peace. Against the opposition of Abaddon, the other five gods created the Bloodstones to split up the four schools of magic, which would suppress its abuse.' 'Abaddon was angered by this and he gathered his strongest followers, the Margonites, to assault the weak spot of the Rift so he could overthrow the other five gods. Although Abaddon was strong enough to defeat the joint forces of two gods, he still could not withstand the power of all five gods united.'--Glass 10:07, 27 May 2007 (CDT)


 * I think it's a combination of information from the Prophecies and Nightfall manuals, the booklet that came with the Nightfall pre-release bonus pack and one of the Asian websites. -- Gordon Ecker 20:16, 27 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Scroll up. . The original link still works too, so you can feed it into Babelfish and see something that totally doesn't make sense but faintly resembles what I translated. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 00:42, 28 May 2007 (CDT)

Shameless plug
Come check out User:PanSola/The hidden history behind the One Year War and the Exodus! -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 07:59, 28 May 2007 (CDT)

Good story but you made one error, in the time Abaddon was still a God Grenth wasn't, only latter will Grenth overthrow Dhuum and take him place among the Gods of Tyria.--Glass 10:26, 28 May 2007 (CDT)


 * The statue of Grenth in the Temple of the Six Gods pretty much proves that Grenth was already a god at the start of the war between Abaddon ond the rest of the pantheon. Grenth's overthrow of Dhuum could've happened pretty much any time after the dawn of recorded history and before the start of the war against Abaddon. -- Gordon Ecker 15:45, 28 May 2007 (CDT)

But at the end of Nightfalls campain Olias says: 'Abaddon is dead. And I assure you, Grenth will not make the mistake that the other gods did. We will not hear from Abaddon again in this lifetime... or the next.' Hinting that Grenth overthrew Dhuum after Abaddon was exiled in the Realm of Torment.
 * Or, Grenth wanted to destroy abaddon the first time but was overruled by the other gods who were in favour of inprisonment. This is probably disprovable, reading lore is boring. Lord of all tyria 16:51, 28 May 2007 (CDT)


 * I always thought Grenth overthroew Dhuum before Tyria was even created. I don't see how Olias's statement supports the hint.  -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 18:07, 28 May 2007 (CDT)


 * I'll take this opportunity to plug my much less impressive timeline, covering when Abaddon and Grenth probably defeated their predecessors, when they theoretically cold have defeated their predecessors but probably didn't, and when they could not have defeated their predecessors unless the historical accounts are wrong or there's a retcon. -- Gordon Ecker 23:28, 28 May 2007 (CDT)


 * I always internally considered Grenth to have overthrown Dhuum before the creation of Tyria. According to Guild Wars Taiwan's lore all 6 together created the world of Tyria. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 02:46, 29 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Then there's the question of why Dhuum was the god of Death and who he was being cruel and unjust to before the old gods created the mortal races of Tyria (probably the Forgotten, as they may predate Tyria). Hopefully Eye of the North will expand on Tyria's early history. -- Gordon Ecker 03:47, 29 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Whether the Forgotton predated Tyria or not, they didn't originate from Tyria. And I think it is safe to assume that once the Gods were working on Tyria, they never left Tyria until the Exodus and never made another world after Tyria at least until the Exodus.  Thus based on the assumptions I considered to be safe, even if the Forgotten didn't predate Tyria, the place the Forgotten originated from did predate Tyria (they came to Tyria via the Rift, which may or may not be where they originated from originally), and it thus follows that Dhuum could easily have been the god of Death of that place (life could exist there before the Forgotten were created).  I claim your questions above are trivially addressed. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 07:38, 29 May 2007 (CDT)

Dragon Festival
It hast been confirmith.The blurb for Dragon fest 2007 has confirmed that the Demons that attacked last Year were indeed Abbadon's.--68.192.188.142 11:26, 4 July 2007 (CDT)


 * Well duh, The Fury was there ;p &mdash; Skuld 12:26, 4 July 2007 (CDT)

The Fury is Dhuum's guy, not Abbadon's. Though we all knew it, it was never offically stated to be Abbadon's doing untill now.
 * zihw-eseehc stae noddabA. --DEATHWING 16:11, 5 July 2007 (CDT)

its kisu nowBold textConSPRIRACY CONSPRICAY THOSE ACTORS WERE WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY 2 POWERFUL, KISU WILL DESTROY THE WORLD.Bold text sry that was rly random

Abaddon's Uglyness
was he always that ugly i mean come on even grenth isnt that ugly. he looks like a vacuum cleaner that can pull a can of whoopass. Seriously, wat happened 2 his face. Chris of Krtya 2:06 AM July 7 2007
 * Dunno, but the Ruins of Morah mission implies he wore a mask before his exile. -- Gordon Ecker 02:16, 9 July 2007 (CDT)
 * You think that's his face? >:] --84-175 (talk) 02:45, 16 July 2007 (CDT)

do u think he might be the imbodiment of magic sorta like how the margonites r and thats y hes so ugly?