User:Entropy/archives

'''DO NOT EDIT THIS PAGE. IT IS AN ARCHIVE.'''

Please use the talk page instead if you want to leave a comment.

=Build:Mo/Me Inspired Smiter=

THIS BUILD GOT VETTED AND FAVORED AS OF SATURDAY, JANUARY 27, 2007.

It's either the first sign of The Apocalypse if you voted unfavored, or it's one of those once-in-a-blue-moon occurances. Yeah, it may get unfavored because of more votes at some later date. But just to know - that at one point in time, this got favored - well, that makes me so happy. :) It's a wonderful world...

The Inspired Smiter utilizes the Mesmer's Inspiration line and Smiting Prayers. It is a general-purpose utility build that deals a moderate amount of damage and can deal with a fairly large number of situations. This build is designed for PvE (specifically, using an all-hench party), since players are generally unfriendly to Smiting Monks and will hate you for not being able to heal and resurrect.

Note: if you're not a solo-minded Monk, and if you actually are good at Healing, Bonding, and/or Protecting, then this is not the build for you. This build is designed for folks who made a Monk but quickly found out they were no good at it (such as myself). In this respect it is startlingly similar to an Air Magic Elementalist.

Equipment

 * A Smiting Rod from Ornhelm Brightaxe or Arliss Vaughn.
 * A Jeweled Chalice from Mourn Drakespur or Bariel Darkroot.
 * Any armor; Ascetic's is not recommended, though.
 * Rune of Superior Vigor.
 * Extra runes of Attunement or Vitae.

Usage

 * Activate Mantra of Signets before battle.
 * In general, use skills in this order: Signet of Judgment, SoJ, Bane Signet, Banish. Timing is important; try to keep the target constantly knocked down.
 * If the foe is a melee attacker, you may wish to lead with Bane Signet instead, and save Signet of Judgment for a caster foe.
 * Dangerous spellcasters are easily denied by leading with Leech Signet.
 * Interrupt with Leech Signet and Power Drain as necessary.
 * Use Smite Hex and Drain Enchantment as necessary.
 * Reactivate Mantra of Signets as soon as it recharges.
 * If there are spirits/minions, use Banish. It deals double/quadruple damage to them.

Counters

 * This build can't (directly) heal itself or deal with Conditions.
 * Any anti-Signet skill, such as Rust.
 * Anti-knockdown skills or foes that can't be knocked down.
 * Removal of Mantra of Signets via Wild Blow or such.

Variants

 * Mantra of Inscriptions could replace Mantra of Signets, for a possibly better DPS and interrupt recharge; however, it doesn't allow for easy chain knockdowns.
 * If in an area where Smite Hex and/or Drain Enchantment are not needed, replace with Resurrect, Symbol of Wrath, or Smite.
 * If facing only Hexes/Enchantments, swap in Inspired Hex/Inspired Enchantment as appropriate.
 * If facing primarily non-caster enemies, drop Power Drain and take both Mantra of Signets and Mantra of Inscriptions. Or swap in Resurrect, Symbol of Wrats, or Smite.
 * When appropriate, consider substituting in a Mantra. For example, versus the Mursaat, Mantra of Lightning may be useful.

=Build S&F Guide=

This article details the style and formatting guidelines for creating and maintaining new articles about character builds. This is a style guide and not an actual build article. Please do not modify the content here with build-specific information. See the next section for an explanation on how to create new pages.

Creating a new build article
Every unique build or team build must be created as a new article. Before creating, try to look through and see if a variant of your build is already available. If so, consider adding your build as a variant.

To create a new build article, you can proceed in one of two ways.
 * Edit the sandbox to create a link to your new build article. For example, if your new build is called "W/any Gallant Soldier", then add the following text to the sandbox: ""When you save the page, you will find a red link. Click on it to start editing your build article.
 * Note:
 * For optional professions, please use /any, not /Any.
 * It would be appreciated if after finishing, you could remove the link from the sandbox.


 * Alternatively, if you are more familiar with wikis, you can go directly to the URL of your new build. The "W/any Gallant Soldier" page will be at:""

For general wiki help, please see the article Help:Editing.

Important Note: ''Before a build is made, check Category:Unfavored builds to see if your build already exists. Making a build over a previous one saves both you and voters time.''

Naming
A new character build article should always be prefixed with the abbreviated names of the primary and secondary professions. Team build articles should be prefixed with "Team -" instead. Always try to come up with a good descriptive name for your article. The following are examples of good build names:
 * Build:R/N Touch Ranger
 * Build:Rt/any Ritual Lord
 * Build:Team - Ranger Spike

Template
The following is a barebones template of a new build article, ready for cut-and-pasting.

A build should only be in untested or build stubs, not both. Until your build is ready for testing, keep it in the stubs section with  and when you decide to add on the   tag, make sure to remove the build stub tag.

use "build-stub" for builds being assembled, and "untested-build" for builds that are ready for community review (DELETE THIS LINE)

Describe the build.

Attributes and Skills

 * Suggest a few optional skill(s) if you included an Optional slot in the skill bar.


 * "Generic resurrect" works like an Optional slot. Replace it if necessary.

Equipment

 * Armor
 * Weapons

Usage
Describe how to use the build.

Counters
Describe important counters.

Variants
List the major variants.

Sections
Begin the build article with GuildWiki:Style_and_formatting/Builds#Untested_build_tag|. This will insert a message at the top of your build showing others that it needs to be tested. After the build undergoes vetting, it will be replaced with either  or. If you do not add the  tag, it will be added for you by someone else.

Immediately give a short summary of the build. Do not title this summary section as "Overview" or "Introduction", as these titles are understood. It is generally preferred to begin the summary by stating outright what the build does. For example, the R/N Touch Ranger build begins as follows


 * A Touch Ranger makes use of a ranger's durability in getting close to his opponents, and uses the "touch" skills from the necromancer's arsenal to steal his opponents' health and deal a large amount of armor ignoring damage. Because the touch skills are not spells, the ranger primary attribute of Expertise helps to reduce their cost greatly.

Notice that the build is referred to in bold (sans the profession prefix). This section should generally contain:


 * A mention of the key skill(s) in the build
 * A listing of which game styles (PvE or PvP) it applies most to. For PvP, a further clarification of Random Arenas, Team Arenas, Heroes' Ascent, Guild versus Guild or Alliance Battle should be given.

Do not fill the introduction with:


 * A mention of every skill used in the build
 * A list of attributes and ranks
 * Detailed usage or counter discussion.

This introduction section should be no longer than a paragraph.

Attributes and Skills
Use the template to list the attributes (documentation).

Use the template to list the skills.

See the example above. The attribute listing should use the rank + headgear + rune syntax. Do not add spurious = signs in the attributes or you will confuse the template.

Make sure your attribute point allocation is correct (i.e. you haven't got left over points or used more than 200 points). The Attribute point spending article can be used to check this.

Equipment
List only the following:
 * Essential weapons
 * Essential armor

Do not list runes (which can be derived from the attribute listing) and non-essential gear. Try to be as brief as possible.

Note: The only time runes should be listed is when they are essential to the farming builds (e.g. when you have to switch armor or mask at a keypoint in the run).

Usage
Present usage information as much as possible in brief and in bulleted form.


 * Wikify the first mention of a skill, but do not wikify all mentions.
 * Try to be as brief in your descriptions as possible. You do not need to document game mechanics such as "hit C to target nearest" unless it is essential and non-intuitive. Assume that readers know how to play the game.

Counters
List the counters to the build as stated.


 * Only list the principal and effective counters for the key idea of the build.
 * Do not mention general counters such as "run away" or "kite" unless it is extremely relevant to the build.

Variants
List the principal variants of the build.


 * Try, as much as possible, to not suggest replacements for the key skills in the build.
 * If a variant you suggest requires an entirely different style of playing, it should be in a different build article.
 * There should only be one attribute and skill bar in a build page. Here, if what you're trying to do cannot be described on one or two lines, it is usually not a viable variant.

See Also/External Links
In this optional section add references to related pages on the GuildWiki or well known external sources.

Standard limits on linking to external sites apply. Do not link to your guild's website. The link will simply be removed.

Untested build tag
Once the build is for community testing, apply the tag. The codes for the build types are as follows:
 * {| border="1"

! Build type code !! Category !! Game-play type
 * - align="center"
 * - align="center"
 * AB || Alliance Battle builds || PvP
 * - align="center"
 * CM || Competitive Mission builds || PvP
 * - align="center"
 * GvG || Guild vs Guild builds || PvP
 * - align="center"
 * HA || Hero's Ascent builds || PvP
 * - align="center"
 * HB || Hero Battle builds || PvP
 * - align="center"
 * RA || Random Arena builds || PvP
 * - align="center"
 * TA || Team Arena builds || PvP
 * - align="center"
 * PvP team || PvP team builds || PvP
 * - align="center"
 * farming || Farming builds || PvE
 * - align="center"
 * running || Running builds || PvE
 * - align="center"
 * hero || Hero builds || PvE
 * - align="center"
 * PvE team || PvE team builds || PvE
 * - align="center"
 * general || General PvE builds || PvE
 * }

Build Categories
Place your build in one of the following categories, based on what campaigns the skills it uses come from:



Do not add categories to the top of the article as it will mess up the spacing. Categories go at the very bottom of articles. Categories will stay commented out (between ) until and unless the build favored, but they help determine which campaign(s) the build was created for.

When writing a build article, it is important to keep in mind many different things. This article lists some basic steps to help you submit good builds to the wiki.

Build Content

 * Builds should follow the GuildWiki:Style and formatting/Builds|Build outline.
 * Copy over the syntax in the Build Outline, and fill in the appropriate fields.


 * There should be a minimal number of Optional Slots.
 * Suggestions to Optional slots should be included.


 * The build should be unique; it should be distinct enough from all the existing builds.
 * Attributes and Skills: Are they the same, or very similar to existing builds?
 * Purpose: What is the goal of your build? Are there any other builds with identical uses?
 * Variants: Is your build already included under the variant of another article?
 * If any of the above is true, reconsider posting the build.


 * There should generally be runes suggested for all Attributes of the selected Primary Profession.
 * For Example, a Necro build using Soul Reaping is expected to at least have "+ 1" after the base attribute level.

Quality of writing

 * The build should be written precisely, to specific detail, without sounding redundant or stupid.
 * Review your use of grammar in the build.


 * Build should not contain any first-person point-of-view.
 * Convert all POV's into second-person (ie, I would take a break here -> you should stop here).


 * Build should consist mostly of fact, rather than opinion.
 * Do not use a lot of "I think" or "It is believed that".


 * There should not be any spelling or grammar mistakes.
 * Use a spell checker and make sure there are no red links because you've spelled something incorrectly.

Build Performance

 * Build should have been tested prior to posting it on GuildWiki.
 * Do not submit "ideas" for builds.


 * The build should be able to achieve its goal, and do so with minimal difficulty.
 * There should not be other builds out there that do the same job with less effort.


 * The build should be able to deal with the range of situations it is designed for, and survive through minor disruption.
 * The build should include ways to deal with the most common counters to the build


 * The build should be able to last for the full duration of the fight it is intended for.
 * Builds with heavy energy use should incorporate skills that help recover or regain spent energy. (see energy management)

PvE Builds

 * The build should be able to deal with errors made by other players.
 * Neither henchmen nor humans are perfect, the build should be able to deal with a reasonable amount of errors by others.


 * The build should take the behavior of Mob AI into account.
 * Example: Do not use AoE damage against mobs who are not supposed to scatter.

PvP Builds

 * Should take into account the different level of intelligence of the opponents.
 * Many tactics that work against the AI will easily be countered by real humans. Do not rely on these for PvP.


 * The build should take common other PvP builds into account.
 * Try to exploit tactics that are common in PvP, while using ones which are not usually countered themself.


 * Should include what area of PvP they are intended for.
 * Specify which part of PvP the build is intended for (GvG, Random Arenas, etc) and add the category.

Random Arena Builds

 * The build should adapt to the fast pace of fighting.
 * For example: There should be a really good excuse, if the build includes no Resurrection Signet.


 * Since teams are randomly formed, the build should not overly depend on other characters.
 * In particular: It should not be totally dependant on having a monk for healing.

Alliance Battles

 * The build should be able to deal with the NPCs present in the alliance battles.
 * It is easy to exploit the static character of the NPCs present, the build should aim to do so.


 * The build should specify which tactics it uses in Alliance Battles.
 * Is the build used for capping, mobbing or something else?


 * There is an automatic resurrection function in alliance battles so there is usually not a need for a resurrect skill.
 * This seems to be the general opinion of the community, so if you do include one in your build make sure it works well and for a purpose, with clear instructions of when and how to use it.

Competitive Missions

 * The build should be able to deal with the NPCs present in the missions.
 * ''It is easy to exploit the static character of the NPCs present, the build should aim to do so.


 * Since teams are randomly formed, the build should not overly depend on other characters.
 * In particular: It should not be totally dependant on having a monk for healing.

Similar Builds

 * In several cases (Minion Master builds, Assassin Combo builds, 55 monk builds) of builds which are very popular in the game, a huge number of builds has been submitted to the wiki, which only differ in minor aspects. Always search for similar builds before submitting, but look especially carefully if submiting one of these builds.

Existing Builds

 * If your build already exists, there are two options available to you.
 * If the existing version of the build is unfavored, the unfavored build should be modified to your liking, rather than creating a new build page.
 * If the existing version of the build is in any other category, the build should simply not be made. Instead, suggest changes in the existing version's talk page as to why your version may be better than the current revision of the article.

Your work is our work

 * Keep in mind that once you submit your build (or any other article) on GuildWiki, it becomes part of the community project. Do not expect your pristine article to remain exactly as it was when you submitted it - part of what makes GuildWiki special is the ability for articles to change over time.

Everyone benefits from scrutiny

 * Don't sweat about the small stuff. Please realize that once you submit your build, there is going to be discussion on its talk page about the merits and flaws of your dispositions. And there's a chance that some editors will vote it Category:Unfavored builds|unfavored or suggest that it be merged into an existing build. It is not meant as a personal attack on you or your creative ideas, but simply a means of ensuring that only the most thoroughly tested and generally useful builds enter the category.

Don't be discouraged

 * Do not take it to heart if one of your build was rated unfavored. The wiki tries only to maintain the best builds as tested, that inevitably means that many builds (which might be ok, but are not top quality) will not make it.

= That cancer discussion... =

I generally agree with you that I am sick of people putting up ribbons to "support a cause" especially those BIG causes that everyone supports anyways and most of the time the ribbon is used to make the person feel better about themselves (like supporting the military, or breast cancer research or being proud to be an American), I find these very elitist and made to flat out make someone feel special about doing the right thing that everyone is supposed to do anyways.

However, I found that small remark you made in your final response about having "no sympathy" for those who do not check for some reason or another to be completely unwarranted and insensitive. I hope it was just an overzealous sweeping statement you made to send a point or something, not an actual thoguht out stand on the issue. It casts grave shadows on the earlier example of your friend who has breast cancer. Do you not feel sympathy for her if she discovered it late? Or if she discovered it early enough you feel she has the common cold?

There IS a level of poverty in THIS country, where mothers work two jobs and work hard and they do NOT want to find out they have breast cancer. They just don't spend the time every few days feeling for lumps in their bathroom. Then one day they find a lump and they are at an advanced stage. You can fault them all you want, but it would tell me you have simply not experienced their side of life. These are the people who need more cancer awareness and more access to treatment, not the yuppies and middle-class folks who spend their entire afternoons searching for lumps and worrying about their weight, but the people who do not have time to follow all the healthy practices and learn them.

Finally, in my opinion, you should always have sympathy for anyone diagnosed with cancer no matter how famous/easily detectable the cancer is... I just found that to be an excessively harsh statement. I lost my mother to breast cancer and I know she tried and tried, and I also know she suffered a lot... and I greatly took offense to that statement. --Karlos 15:49, 12 June 2007 (CDT)


 * I'm sorry for your loss, Karlos.


 * I did not intend my statement to come off as harsh as it may have, and I apologize for the offense I caused. I think any death from a preventable disease is a shame, and I think that anybody in that situation is in a pitiable state. I did not say that I have "no sympathy" for those who do not get immediately treated, only that I have less, in general. Every person is different and my blanket statement, by itself, was inappropriate without qualifiers.


 * I am greatly opposed to the yuppies who think it won't happen to them, don't bother checking, and then end up losing their breast or their life being depicted as heroes or saints. I should have said this the first time around, as that was where my ire was meant to be directed.


 * &mdash;Tanaric 16:04, 12 June 2007 (CDT)


 * I come from a completely different paradigm where there is no such thing as a "preventable" death. I'm a religious person who firmly believes that God is involved in what goes in life and that we are in this life to be tested to prove our mettle. As such, the beginning and end of the test are two parameters that I believe are absolutely governed by God.
 * I'm a lot more concerned with the huge disparity between care given to financially comfortable people vs poor people. I think that fundamental health care should be equally available to all. I know first hand from the experiences of people I know here in the US that this is not true, at all.
 * Media depiction of people who suffer from adversity here in this country (whether they are lazy yuppies or not) is simply unrealistic. I can't stomach to watch it. It belittles the viewer's intelligence. --Karlos 08:59, 13 June 2007 (CDT)


 * You're more generous than I am. You say "it belittles the viewer's intelligence," whereas I'm inclined to say "it reflects the average viewer's intelligence." :)


 * I am not religious, so I have to ask -- if God is involved in the test that is the dying process, doesn't the lack of medical care available to poorer people suggest that God wants them to have a more challenging trial? (For the record, I'm not trying to belittle your views; I'm genuinely curious.)


 * &mdash;Tanaric 09:27, 13 June 2007 (CDT)


 * I disagree that it reflects the viewer intelligence. In the end, media is about making money. This is the betrayal that took place somewhere in the 80s but was never announced to anyone. I think up to the 70s, the trend in TV news was similar to news papers, i.e. cover the "big" stories that the editors think the public should know about them and cover them as deligiently as possible and with as little bias as possible. It may have started fading by the 70s even, i am judging by archived news reports I see more than actual experience since I did not live in that era, but somwhere between 1970 and 1985 this shift happened.
 * The shift was that news used to be above ratings and sales. It was more of a service to the community, to alert them about the biggest local, national and international happenings. After the shift, news was treated as part of the money making portion of business. Therefore, the choice of which news items to bring up and, more importantly, HOW these news items are reported shifted into a style that generates money instead of a style that lives up to high journalistic standards. Hence you saw a rise in hollywood style coverage of events where they dwell on the personal suffering of individual people instead of fuss about the five Ws of who, what, where, when and most importantly WHY.
 * So, whereas NPR will say that a bombing took place in an Israeli settlement and that this bombing was a result of X and caused Y damage and the Israeli government haz done Z in retalliation, CNN would have Anderson Cooper standing by a pile of rubble interviewing this distraught Israeli mother who describes how her pet cat was in the house when the explosions went on.
 * The problme is that, no one told the viewers that. The majority of viewers up until the late 90s still regarded TV news as an authoritative source on news. No one told them that the mission statement for news coverage in their local TV station was rewritten with more emphasis on what sells than what's important.
 * People have started to figure this out, and more and more people are starting to trust TV news less and less. But I don't fault people's intelligence (I do fault their laziness in standing up against this and voicing their concerns).
 * As for your other question... The test is comprehensive. It's not just about how we do individually in our personal lives and whether we pray or not. It also extends into every aspect of how we interact with the outside world, whether we are kind, gentle, honest, abusive, .... and so forth. And a big part of that test is whether we will collectively choose as a society to use our taxes to fund a new football arena, but refuse to spend more money on the health care of our poor. A big part of the test is that our lives are very intertwined and the reprecussions of our choices do not just affect ourselves. --Karlos 20:48, 13 June 2007 (CDT)


 * I'm so sorry for interfering with a bit 'offtopic', so I restarted the indention for this message.
 * While reading your latest posts, Karlos, I got yet again confirmations on many of the differences which I knew to exist between the american and european (especially the finnish) systems. In Finland we are much closer to what you seem to hold as an ideal world. The media is as neutral as possible (unlike for example Fox TV in America). The difference between those with a lot of money and those with a little of it (I wouldn't really use the words rich and poor in Finland at all, everyone is closer to the avarage than one would imagine) isn't a big one in any aspect I could think of (education, awareness, possibilities, ...). Tax income is used to help everyone; we have free education, partially free and partially low cost health care, etc. I'm really happy to live here and I'm sad that these things are a lot worse in many other countries. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 06:32, 14 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Yet, more people want to migrate to the US than Finland. :P You're looking at one negative angle that we're discussing. There are still positives and negatives to look at. The educational system here is almost unique in the whole entire world. Produces Americans to say the least. I admire a lot of things about it. So, not all is bad in the land of Mr.Bush. --Karlos 06:56, 14 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Every place has it's positive and negative sides. I didn't say that living in the US is necessarily worse than it is here, I just said that some of the things that you don't like in the US are done better here. (Btw, the migration thing might have something to do with the size difference ;) ) --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 08:02, 14 June 2007 (CDT)


 * And, for the record, I've wanted to emigrate to Finland for the last 6-8 years or so. :) &mdash;Tanaric 09:44, 14 June 2007 (CDT)

=Rurik's Invocation in Ruins of Surmia= Come to the fore, O sons of Ascalon, We fight once more, the battle lines are drawn. Now join the men who live to guard us all, Go and defend atop the Northern Wall. Fear not the cost, whether in blood or gold, Mourn not the lost, though they will not grow old. If here they fall, we know they shall live on, When e'er you call or cry, "For Ascalon!" "For Ascalon!"

=The Joys Of Being An Admin= (Block log); 00:31. . PanSola (Talk | contribs) (blocked "User:66.90.118.45" with an expiry time of 3 days (anonymous users only, account creation disabled): Lookout!)

=Language use in images=

So where's the policy that supports deleting images with inappropriate language? - Auron 14:15, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, it's not a swastika (*eyes Auron*) but it could be offensive to some. If someone complains I'll delete it...I'm not saying I would normally tolerate such language, but Auron is correct that GW:IMAGE doesn't explicitly say images with inappropriate language are automatic candidates for deletion. Unless you had something else in mind PanSola. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 15:54, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Image:GalenTrask.jpg offends me, delete plz - Auron 17:01, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think it should be deleted just because it has inappropriate language. Are we not allowed to use naughty words here? I know one should use good judgment and tact but I don't think its a reason to delete it outright. Perhaps ask the uploader to reconsider the image.&mdash; ♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 18:27, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
 * If I felt it should've been deleted outright, I would've deleted it outright d-: I think "naughty" words are ok, but racial discriminatory words are a much more touchy subject.  And because the uploader used it to expressed an opinion of his (rather than to present what someone else was saying), I think the uploader should be responsible for the choice of language used.  I believe had he typed out the text on a talk page, that would qualify for moderation, and I don't feel it should be an exception just because he did it using images. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 23:49, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, saying "nigger" is not against policy. If I was using it to insult someone, that would be a violation of NPA; not because of my choice of words, but because of the insult. It certainly is pottymouth, but isn't disallowed.
 * Remember, we aren't a carebear crew; we don't censor things based on the iffy "does it offend someone" criteria, because that leads down a very slippery slope, and honestly just makes the place worse off. Hypersensitive people abound, and catering to their insanity and paranoia is not a good way to enforce policy. - Auron 04:39, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Exactly what I was trying to say. There's no policy against it nor should there be. The best thing to do in this any similar cases would simply be to urge users to consider their posts and remember to be tactful as best they can be. (trying to stick my responce where it belongs before edit conflicts get in the way)&mdash;♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 07:35, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that just saying the word isn't bad. But I feel the usage in this particular case was meant to specifically and clearly used as a derogatory term (not targeted at a specific individual, but nonetheless used in an insulting way).  I agree with you that we shouldn't be a carebear crew, but somehow this image has triggered the "has crossed the line" alarm in my subconsciousness. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 06:13, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. - Auron 06:16, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep it as a reference to what is generally inappropriate and archive the original post that uses this to hide it from the general public (general public being the people that just click the talk page button to check any recent discussions) without them looking for it on purpose. This image was posted in the relevant area but it did not add to the contexts of the conversation. I'm on the fence with this one, i guess it depends on who wrote that message. -- Xeon 08:15, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed...though I'd still like to hear what the uploader (User:Armond) has to say before definitely removing the delete tag or archiving or whatever. (Yes, I hate having things left around in Candiates for Deletion.) [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 14:22, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


 * To be honest I don't overly care what happens to it, Gravewit will still be able to see it if he looks and I barely come to this wiki anyway. =\ But I don't think it'd be fair to delete this image without considering the following from Special:Log:


 * 23:02, 20 October 2007 Malcheior Sveth (Talk | contribs) uploaded "Image:Lolofficialallright.JPG"


 * Now considering that this image is simply that other image modified in Paint, and I didn't add or remove any "offensive" content, I'd say either both links stay blue or both go red. 128.120.187.213 (Armond) 15:48, 26 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Um, I honestly don't have Gravewit in mind when feeling this was inappropriate. I wouldn't have really cared if you had said Gravewit is an evil bastard and should go to hell.  The difference between this situation and Malcheior Sveth was that Malcheior used it to demonstrate what somebody on the official wiki did, the text did not represent his views/opinions/thoughts.  He just showed that somebody on the official wiki is using a term in a racially derogatory way.  The context of the image was in the discussion of how bad the vandalism situation on the official wiki was, and thus I find the usage of the image appropriate.  On the other hand, you are using those words (even if the words are originally somebody else's) in a racially derogatory way to express an idea of yours, and thus you are responsible for the choice of how you decided to represent your idea.  It is that choice in the use of a term in a racially derogatory that I find inappropriate.  The inappropriateness isn't in the words themselves, but the context in which they are used. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 20:10, 26 October 2007 (UTC)


 * To be honest I didn't have the "racially derogatory" thing in mind when I edited it either. I must be hanging around Auron too much.
 * If sysops are promoted based on the idea that they have the knowledge to enforce the policies of the wiki and overall make the wiki a better place, and a sysop has decided that this image is inappropriate for the wiki community, then the image should be deleted. Maybe it's just me used to being an admin on PvX, where we (or, I'll admit, perhaps just I) deal with things with a lot more action and a lot less debate (I'm a big fan of efficiency), but I'm surprised the discussion has continued for so long. Were it me looking at an image, I would decide if the image deserved to stay or go, and take action accordingly, possibly leaving a note as to why I chose what I did.
 * Again, what happens to this image, and my wiki privileges, doesn't really matter to me. I am against the idea of contributing to Wikia (and so I try to make my contributions here few and far between), and the official wiki discussions are almost... pointless, except for trolling. This is likely the most active you'll see me on this wiki for quite some time; I try to not give wikia pagehits and not participate in too many meaningless discussions on the official wiki. Both these wikis are mostly read-only for me (I even had trouble remembering to check here for responses :P). 128.120.187.213 05:01, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Island of Shehkah

 * Kormir: Rally the Recruits (Tutorial) [[Image:Quest.png]]
 * OR


 * Kormir: Take the Shortcut (Skip Tutorial) [[Image:Quest.png]]
 * Kormir: Into Chahbek Village [[Image:Quest.png]]

Chahbek Village

 * First Spear Jahdugar: Quiz the Recruits
 * Jibehr: Never Fight Alone

1) First Spear Jahdugar: Chahbek Village (mission)

Churrhir Fields

 * First Spear Dehvad: Primary Training [[Image:Quest.png]]
 * First Spear Dehvad: Honing Your Skills [[Image:Quest.png]]  «

Kamadan

 * Chorben: Quality Steel
 * Kahlim: Material Girl
 * Kina: A Friend In Need
 * Mahk: The Toy's Story
 * Mehinu: Armored Transport  &laquo;
 * &raquo; Kailona: Missing Shipment
 * Nenah: Need More Stuff
 * Shatam: Identity Theft
 * Xunlai Agent Jueh: A Personal Vault

Plains of Jarin

 * Mauban: Map-Travel Inventor
 * Nehdukah: Hog Hunt
 * Royal Chef Hatundo

Sunspear Great Hall

 * Poturi: Proof of Courage
 * Runduk: Rising in the Ranks: Sunspear Master Sergeant &laquo;
 * &raquo; Runduk: Rising in the Ranks: First Spear
 * Sehti: Suwash the Pirate
 * Shaurom: A Hidden Threat

Churrhir Fields or Kamadan

 * &raquo; First Spear Dehvad: Command Training


 * First Spear Dehvad: Secondary Training [[Image:Quest.png]]
 * First Spear Dehvad: Choose Your Secondary Profession [[Image:Quest.png]]
 * First Spear Dehvad: Leaving a Legacy [[Image:Quest.png]] «

Kamadan

 * &raquo; Barlom: To Dye For

Champion's Dawn

 * ''Mofuun: Scholarly Affairs


 * &raquo; Dajwa: Diamond in the Rough
 * &raquo; ''Mofuun: Skree Hatchling Season
 * &raquo; ''Quarrymaster Bohanna: Quarry Quandry &laquo;


 * &raquo; Quarrymaster Bohanna: Queen of the Quarry

Cliffs of Dohjok

 * Vadben: A Decayed Monument (Difficulty: Master)

Jokanur Diggings

 * Digmaster Gatah: The Honorable General [[Image:Quest.png]] «

Zehlon Reach

 * Elder Belin: Voices in the Night (Difficulty: Master)
 * Hatuk: Secret Passage
 * Kohanu: A Peaceful Solution
 * OR
 * Shaudok: A Loose Cannon
 * Lendu the Fisherman: Catch of the Day (Difficulty: Master)
 * Lieutenant Murunda: Skale and Magic Compass
 * Sinni: A Father's Fate

The Astralarium

 * Emissary Dajmir: Signs and Portents [[Image:Quest.png]]
 * &raquo; Kihawa: The Cult of the Stone Face

Jokanur Diggings
2) Digmaster Gatah: Jokanur Diggings (mission) <font size="4" color="gold">«

Churrhir Fields or Kamadan

 * First Spear Dehvad: Isle of the Dead [[Image:Quest.png]]
 * First Spear Dehvad: Bad Tide Rising [[Image:Quest.png]] <font size="4" color="deeppink">«
 * First Spear Dehvad: Special Delivery [[Image:Quest.png]]

Sun Docks

 * <font size="4" color="deeppink">&raquo; Field General Hayao: Zaishen Elite <font size="4" color="deeppink">&laquo;

Plains of Jarin

 * <font size="4" color="deeppink">&raquo; Field General Hayao: Student Jin
 * OR
 * <font size="4" color="deeppink">&raquo; Field General Hayao: Student Sousuke

Sunspear Great Hall

 * Castellan Puuba: Big News, Small Package [[Image:Quest.png]]
 * <font size="4" color="gold">&raquo; Castellan Puuba: Rising Suns <font size="4" color="crimson">&laquo;
 * <font size="4" color="crimson">&raquo; Castellan Puuba: Re-enlist Rojis

Kodlonu Hamlet

 * Jatoro Musagi: A Message Home <font size="4" color="darkorange">&laquo;
 * Elder Olunideh: The Lone Raider <font size="4" color="blue">&laquo;
 * Elder Olunideh: Trade Relations


 * <font size="4" color="blue">&raquo; Elder Olunideh: Corsair Invasion <font size="4" color="blue">&laquo;


 * <font size="4" color="blue">&raquo; Elder Olunideh: Corsair Vengeance

Kamadan

 * <font size="4" color="darkorange">&raquo; Clerk Arlon: One Good Turn Deserves Another <font size="4" color="darkorange">&laquo;


 * <font size="4" color="darkorange">&raquo; Clerk Arlon: To See The Sights <font size="4" color="darkorange">&laquo;


 * <font size="4" color="darkorange">&raquo; Clerk Arlon: To Ask For More

Plains of Jarin

 * Jerek: Following the Trail [[Image:Quest.png]]

Blacktide Den
3) Savage Nunbe: Blacktide Den (mission)

Sunspear Great Hall

 * Castellan Puuba: The Iron Truth [[Image:Quest.png]]

Plains of Jarin

 * Jerek: Trial by Fire [[Image:Quest.png]]

Sunspear Great Hall

 * Castellan Puuba: War Preparations (Recruit Training) [[Image:Quest.png]]
 * Castellan Puuba: War Preparations (Wind and Water) [[Image:Quest.png]]
 * Castellan Puuba: War Preparations (Ghost Reconnaissance) [[Image:Quest.png]]
 * Castellan Puuba: The Time is Nigh [[Image:Quest.png]] <font size="4" color="blueviolet">«

Kamadan

 * <font size="4" color="blueviolet">&raquo; Deras Tenderlin: Terror in Tyria
 * <font size="4" color="blueviolet">&raquo; Funwa Shento: Plague in Cantha

Consulate Docks
4) Raidmarshal Mehdara: Consulate Docks (mission)

Yohlon Haven

 * Sunspear Modiki: Hunted! [[Image:Quest.png]]

Sunspear Sanctuary

 * Lonai: The Great Escape [[Image:Quest.png]]
 * Lonai: And a Hero Shall Lead Them [[Image:Quest.png]]

Venta Cemetery
5) Rojis: Venta Cemetery (mission)

Kamadan

 * Dockmaster Ahlaro: The Council is Called [[Image:Quest.png]]

Consulate

 * Elder Suhl: To Vabbi! [[Image:Quest.png]]

Delete?
Some of this information is already available on the Mission overview (Nightfall) page. There is one addition, and that is which NPC each mission is obtained from. Also, I intend to use this page as a base to begin a page that lists all quests in the order they can be obtained--a full quest timeline--not just primary quests. True, there is a page that lists all Nightfall quests, but it is sorted by which area they are available in. My ultimate goal in doing this is to list all quests in chronological order.--Mervil 15:28, 10 February 2007 (CST)


 * note: per the delete tag, "do not remove this notice from articles that you have created yourself" - allow the community to discuss and decide. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 14:08, 11 February 2007 (CST)
 * As no other comments were added after a week, that leaves just the two of us commenting on delete or not, and my comment was only in the delete tag itself. As no one else is commenting one way or the other, I viewed it as a lack of concensus to delete at this time, so pulled the tag. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 10:54, 20 February 2007 (CST)
 * Has this page fallen into disuse enough to delete now? (1) Nothing links to here, (2) except for a couple of syntax edits, hasn't been touched since Feb 2007 and (3) no equivalent articles for Prophecies or Factions. Comments, thoughts? --Wolfie [[Image:Wolfie_sig.jpg|19px]] (talk|contribs) 04:47, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Good call putting the tag on there. I would like to know where if anywhere this information is already presented. I imagine there is something like this already someplace because it seems rather useful. Naturally, there would have to be corresponding pages for other campaigns and needs some cleaning up. &mdash;<font color=#ff44aa>♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 21:44, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * As noted in Mervil's original comment above, the Mission overviews (Nightfall) pretty much has most of the same info, but seems was then planning to basically merge in all the quest info from Quests (Nightfall) and to order it all into a "timeline", so have primary / secondary quests + missions all into a "chronological order" (ie, which comes first). (1) That's quite a bit of work, and is probably why this article seems to have stalled, (2) personally find the current format doesn't really provide that sense of a "timeline" very clearly and (3) wonder how much use / value there would be for such an article, nice idea, could be interesting reading, but how often would it be referred to compared to the current mission overview / quest list articles? --Wolfie [[Image:Wolfie_sig.jpg|19px]] (talk|contribs) 03:54, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Although a completed "timeline" would be helpful for those who want to get 100% completion without backtracking through a campaign, in its current state I see little use for this page. I will probably hold onto it and should someone feel like working on it, they can get it back...but since it's been untouched for nearly a year I'm guessing it should be headed for deletion. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 11:41, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

tech support

 * From your description, it sounds like a tablet PC with a misconfigured setting. Unfortunately I have no experience with tablets.  Turn your screen 90 degrees in the mean time until the problem is solved. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 11:17, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

ancient stuff

 * User:Entropy/bureaucrat
 * User:Entropy/NFT
 * User:Entropy/GW_RTS
 * User:Entropy/Paragon_Proposal

the Doctor says...

 * You know what? Fuck that license crap.  The spirit of Creative Commons is sharing, isn't it?  Not to mention that the only party who could sue/complain about their breaking of the license would be us, the GuildWiki community, and are we really going to care enough to do that?  We have the license to protect us from malicious copying or misuse of our information, not to hinder the people with good intentions.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 13:56, 30 July 2008 (UTC)


 * In simple terms (i.e. ignoring the fact that a day as calculated by the rotation of the earth is only 23.934 hours), 48 hours is exactly 2 days, in the same way that 120 minutes is exactly 2 hours. So 48 hours from *now*, exactly 2 days will have passed.  The third day after *now* starts at 48 hours + 1 second.  With a recharge of 172,800 seconds, you could use the skill at the exact same second every other day.  With a recharge of 172,860, though, the time when you can use the skill is shifted by 1 minute each time, so that after 4 months/120 days, you will be reactivating the skill 1 hour later than when you started.  (Of course, you've got the accumulation of the 0.25 second activation, too, so it would actually be 1.25 hours later.)  After 8 years/2,880 days, you will be exactly 1 day off from when you started.    &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 22:22, 5 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Hey, to some college people, five dollars is a lot of money - it's a week's worth of ramen. :P &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 00:29, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I SPY INAFR


Starting since late August, I'll be dropping an excessive amount of references in as many comments as I can make, whether they are relevant to the conversation or not. Spot them for Reference Hunter points.

Leader board
 * 1) Felix, 11
 * 2) Dhaos, 10
 * 3) Doctor Strom, 7
 * 4) Mr. Thrash, 2
 * 5) Surge, 2
 * 6) Crystal, 1
 * 7) Father Gregor, 1

Sundering mods are TRASH

 * I guess I was just confused about the reference to the shadow rangers. Think about it this way: look at the damage formula at the calculations immediately involving the enemy AL.  One percent armor penetration removes 1% of the enemy armor.  While there are armor buffs with significant effect, not a whole lot of mobs or even players in PvP use them.  In the long run, 10% chance of 10% penetration is 1% penetration all the time.  So 60 AL becomes 59.4, which perhaps gets rounded to 59.  Even 100 AL only becomes 99 AL.  A difference of 1 AL essentially scales damage by 2^(1/40), or 1.7%.  Just for comparison, if you raise your weapon attribute by 1 (to 1-12), you effectively reduce the enemy armor by 5.  After 12, it's only by 2, which even still beats 1% AP till you come up against really high armor.  --Fyren 12:49, 23 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Wow, that makes a lot of sense. Why don't we put that instead of that lousy table? :) --Karlos 13:35, 23 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Agreed, that table in the "Criticism of the Sundering Upgrade" external link is pretty confusing to try to read/figure out.


 * Just a question about the math. I've been reading the wiki for awhile and am still quite new to understanding this armor thing but whilst I understand that +10 damage 10% of them time is on average +1 damage all the time; Since having armor reduces damage multiplicatively (which Fyren claimed), I'm not sure if it holds that 10% Armor Penetration 10% of the time is the same as 1% Armor penetration all the time. Not even sure if it makes much difference once everything is worked out anyways. Archon 17:39, 26 March 2007 (CDT)


 * I said you could look at it as 1% AP all the time. It's not really multiplicative, it's exponential (hence the 2^(1/40) I mention).  I was trying to come up with another way of explaining it than pointing people at damage calculation.  But, however you look at it, the old 10/10 sundering totally sucked.  If you want more accuracy: versus 60 AL, 10% of the time they'll have 54 AL and the rest 60 AL.  -6 AL means damage will be scaled by 2^(6/40), so about 11% more damage.  +11% damage 10% of the time and normal damage the other 90% isn't much (and actually worse than I said above).  Looking at 100 AL instead, you've got 2^(10/40) or about +19%.  Looks better, but if you're hitting a warrior, you can just swap to an elemental weapon instead for effectively -20 AL (assuming they're not using whatever the elemental insignia is that needs 13 strength).  --Fyren 18:06, 26 March 2007 (CDT)


 * Ah, got it. Thanks. 129.133.139.138 20:31, 26 March 2007 (CDT)

gg Base Defender
I have to say something on that subject. Before Vampiric Spirit became gay skill, I had W/N bar that could kill Base Defender if supported by 3 monks. 999 dmg every 1.25 secs can be healed with 2 monks these days probably, and having extremly high health has never been easier. Sig of stamina is kinda like perfect, as u wont rly attack the guy... Let's say 14 str so that is +283hp, then there is vital blessing, +200hp, @15 prot; vital weapon = +148 @12... that's 1200+ some spare bits already....1200-999=201 so u need to gain 799 health in less then 1.25 secs in order to survive the next hit. Aura of Faith at 15 prot doubles every health gain (+100%), when rounded it comes to aprox 400hp. Hb/infuser makes healing it a joke....believe me, u dont even have to be uber to do it these days, most r9 nub ha monks are capable of such deeds. And Sig of Str will negate 5 secs kd with ease, so basicly surviving is not much of a problem. Hurting him is a tough part these days, i know unholy feast drains him for sure, but it wont rly work unless u find a way to spam it with 4 necros like every 10 secs. Traps are probably the best option, as u can run w/r with 14 str and 12 ws. But u prolly gonna need more than 1 war, so u will need 1 more team, as each war requires major support. The greatest problem however are gay ppl that wouldn't step aside for you. Long time ago when my hunting party killed him there were like 10 guys dancing behind us and clapping when I pimpslapped the biatch. After that we went to hold HoH for 10 hours cuz we felt godlike. GW was good back then...... Anyway, 8 strong man stand a good chance against BD, and I would lead 7 brave individuals into battle if we have some extremly bored volonteers...http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:LegendaryWalter u can kinda like apply here if u think u are brave enough LegendaryWalter 03:31, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

no u
(Context note: Warwick used to have a neon-pink color scheme for her talkpage.)

You clearly haven't been paying attention, since I have stated on my talkpage that I had no part in the crappy April Fool's "joke" and I don't approve of it. (T/C) 06:54, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Man, Entropy's sig looks downright sickly on this page. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 07:05, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, if I had a neon pink pair then it would be invisible instead. I'm not sure if that would be better or worse. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:08, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Pair? >.> [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 07:09, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * My sig is a real-life image; if you had read a little bit about me you would know that I'm very fond of Converse. I wear a pink pair with "Entropy" monogrammed on the sides. (I've used the name for other stuff before I had an account here.) So that's where my sig image is from. However, the pink of my shoes is one level of pink, while May's talkpage background is a much more intense, "neon" pink. So, they don't match. Thus me saying, if I had a neon pink pair, it would be invisible. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:29, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I have read a little bit about you, but that doesn't mean I'd automatically associate your signature with your shoes. I understand now, though. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 07:33, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Now that I think about it, you're right, it is not that obvious. Ah well. Note for May: although I was going to simply write you off as overblown and pretentious (even after reading your apologies) I changed my mind and I think you're at least partially right about the April Fools CSS jokes. It is taking things a bit far and unfairly forces the minority (those who don't like it) to put up with a joke so everyone else can laugh. That's not very Wiki-like. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:38, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

NPA is srs bsns

 * Holiday dildos are not NPA and as such not interesting to the discussion. ... --Xeeron 22:44, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

What is the definition of an admin?
"Sysops are users that are also granted technical access to a few restricted features (including blocking users and deleting pages), and the additional responsibility of not misusing them." - GWW:ADMIN

"Sysops do not have any say in the editorial process beyond that of any other editor. At least, that's what we like to say. More accurately, sysops absolutely do have a bit more voice than non-sysops. This extra voice is completely unintentional and stems completely from the culture of the wiki -- people look up to administrators and are more reluctant to dispute them. Even though this reverence is not the sysop team's fault, nevertheless, every sysop should be careful to avoid abusing this additional editorial power." - GWW "sysop guide"

"tin-plated dictators with delusions of godhood" - User:OBloodyHell

note to self
as of today, ~2015 contribs as anon + deleted contribs

about elitism/more ideas anet will never read
tl/dr you're wrong about PvPers because you know nothing about PvPers. If you think elitism is tied to PvP, you have obviously never done DoA in your life - those are some of the most elitist players in the entire game, and they aren't even particularly skilled. If you don't run exactly what they want you to run, they call you all kinds of names then kick you from the group. That's why, for months on end, nobody could find a group if they were a sin/mes/ranger/rit/derv/paragon. Some people are assholes - PvPers and PvErs both. Some people are nice - PvPers and PvErs both. If you go into HA and suck ass, expect to be teased - just like what would happen if you went into a DoA pug and performed terribly. Elitism isn't tied to PvP - it isn't even tied to being elite. Broad, sweeping statements are generally wrong either way - the only one I've found to be remotely accurate is that PvPers are generally better at the game (due to in-depth knowledge of game mechanics and skills, whereas PvErs rarely talk to a balth faction guy to see complete list of skills). PvPers that refuse to learn get stuck at r3 and never improve - sort of like PvErs that don't want to learn. Unfortunately for those ignorant PvPers, ANet doesn't cater to them like ANet caters to the terrible PvErs - bad PvP players must get better or keep losing, when PvE players can just pop consumables and take overpowered PvE skills instead of learning how to play. -Auron

<ViliBot> pvpers suck at pve? <ViliBot> interesting <Auron`> wait <Auron`> what? <Wyn> lol I knew that was coming <Auron`> wyn <Auron`> you do know that pvpers were the first to beat doa? <Auron`> and mallyx hardmode? <Auron`> doa came out and for months people whined about it <Auron`> then rep protein A and ensign and a few other people from team quitter went and frapsed it <Wyn> not me... <Mortimer> that's because pvpers are hopelessly obsessed with gw already >_> <Wyn> I didn't whine about it <Auron`> and everyone was like oh its possible <Wyn> and neither did any of my guild <Auron`> so they took that single build and thats all anyone ran <Auron`> then hardmode came out <Auron`> and nobody could beat mallyx <Auron`> there were entire threads on guru <Auron`> about how hard he was <Auron`> then trubs, kris, and rob took heroes <Auron`> and beat him <Wyn> well, since i don't read forums I was never involved in any of it <Auron`> karlos was part of that "elite in-group" of guru DoA people <Auron`> one of the first to call kris' claims bullshit <Auron`> until they posted pics <Auron`> and then karlos was like "oh well you must have glitched him" <Wyn> and all this means little to me <Auron`> :Pvper's are better at PvP, but often tend to suck at PvE: <Auron`> it totally debunks that <Auron`> pvpers are better at the game in general <Auron`> pve included <Mortimer> no it doesn't >_< <ViliBot> (sorry Wyn, couldn't help myself) <Mortimer> you've shown that some pvpers are great at pve, but not that it's a general trend <Auron`> yes it does mort <Auron`> pvpers don't "often suck at pve" <Auron`> pvpers often don't bother with the grind <Auron`> but when they do it <Mortimer> maybe not, but you haven't shown that :P <Auron`> they don't fail at it <Wyn> many of the pvp players I've ever played pve with have sucked rocks <Auron`> she hasn't shown the contrary <Auron`> uhhhh <Auron`> who? <Auron`> people who do AB daily aren't pvpers :< <Mortimer> I'm not arguing with you. I figure, like I said, that most pvpers will be great at pve, simply because they've invested so much time into gw <Wyn> I wouldn't count abers as pvp players anyway <Mortimer> and most pvers suck at gw because they haven't played much <Auron`> and aren't aware of the skills <Auron`> I was surprised to find <Auron`> that balth faction guy <Auron`> had every skill in the game listed <Auron`> I spent days reading through all the skills <Auron`> when I first saw him <Auron`> (back right before factions when I first started pvping) <Auron`> i mean <Auron`> that's how metas shift <Mortimer> Heh, yeah. I looked through a few before I got bored >_> <Auron`> someone with no experience comes in <Auron`> reads the skill list <Mortimer> I'm not srs gw player <Auron`> and says "hey these skills have synergy" <Auron`> and makes a build with it <Auron`> like smite monks <Auron`> smiting has been around for ages <Auron`> and for the most part, wasn't really buffed <Auron`> smite condi came out with eotn <Auron`> but smite monks could have been useful without it <Auron`> just... nobody thought to use them <Wyn> I just get really annoyed when you sooooo belittle ALL pve players like that Auron... <Auron`> meh <Auron`> it's not their fault <ViliBot> I'm not offended. <Wyn> oh fuck you <Auron`> but their mindset and their knowledge are simply lacking <Auron`> they aren't dumb <Auron`> or bad <Auron`> k <Auron`> brb meteor shower derv <ViliBot> hehe <Mortimer> Most pve players are just casuals. Comparing a casual to a srs pvp player is pretty silly :/ <Auron`> eh <Auron`> part of the thing with gw <Auron`> is that you don't have to be a srs pvp player <Auron`> to do it <Auron`> you don't have to grind a level 80 <Auron`> grind gaer <Auron`> gear* <Auron`> and then go in after 40-50 hours of grind <Mortimer> Yes, but casuals don't care about looking for better skills, thinking too in-depth about their build, etc <Auron`> to vpp <Auron`> pvp* <ViliBot> btw, http://wiki.guildwars.com/index.php?title=User_talk%3AIsaiah_Cartwright&diff=1334477&oldid=1334150 <Auron`> there are arenas for that <Auron`> ab for example <Mortimer> But that would involve caring :P <Auron`> and RA for the most part <purple_llama> we just like to play <Auron`> ab is like that <purple_llama> and squash things <Auron`> you dont take a coordinated build <Auron`> you just go in with whatever <Auron`> and play around <Auron`> kill people 1v1 <Auron`> defend bases <Auron`> kill shrines <Auron`> whatever <Auron`> victory there doesn't matter, it's playing and having fun that counts <purple_llama> mhm <Mortimer> Probably most of the casuals don't really care about playing with anybody <Mortimer> if they do, it'll be with friends <Auron`> yea <Belar> Exactly why I don't pvp much. <Auron`> thats why anet put in heroes originally <ViliBot> you don't like playing and having fun? <Auron`> to promote casual pvp <Auron`> unfortunately they forgot to fix hero AI <Auron`> or at least make it not super godly :< <Auron`> i dont want heroes to be removed from HA <Auron`> since IMO that will kill it even further <Belar> Wait, that came out wrong. :/ <Auron`> but anet isn't going to fix heroes <Auron`> its just <Auron`> heroes suck at playing filler bars <Mortimer> anyways, my point is that when you take the game as seriously (or rather, know as much about it) as a good pvp player, you'll be able to figure out how to abuse most pve situations <Auron`> so if you go in with 4 friends <Auron`> and 4 heroes <Auron`> you just lose alot <Auron`> well <Auron`> partly that <Auron`> and partly you can just build for pve <Mortimer> since like you said, one major part of pvp is figuring out the next meta <Auron`> monster skills are all listed on wiki and stuff <Mortimer> right <Auron`> so if you see a bunch of hexes <Auron`> just bring divert <Auron`> + dmg <Mortimer> but that's figuring it out, how things interact <Auron`> right <Auron`> that's learning how to play <ViliBot> "wiki promotes buildwars" <Auron`> :p <Binary10> to be fair <Binary10> the wiki's list of enemies isn't very useful to figuring out what you need to bring <Mortimer> and pvpers have already spent more time learning how to play than most :P <Binary10> because it doesn't tell you that those dryders with their three hexes come in groups of 5 <Auron`> eh, I dunno <Auron`> we figured out frostmaws pretty wel <Auron`> well* <Binary10> you have to have gone out and gotten covered in purple to figure out you probably needed divert <Auron`> we did a #gww pug for it <Auron`> with biro and some other people that didn't really play often <Auron`> and skuld on sin <Auron`> and beat it just cos we brought divert hexes <Binary10> things like frost gate, though <Binary10> there's no real indication unless you know how dryders come at you that you need more than the usual to deal with them <Mortimer> But the average PvEr might never have experimented to figure out that divert's really good <Auron`> right <Binary10> ...or have divert <Mortimer> heck, probably the average PvEr who hasn't talked to anybody won't know the value of prot <Auron`> yep <Auron`> they all focus on their healing <Mortimer> which is a flaw in GW, not the players, really <Auron`> 8 heal skills, no energy management, no prot <Auron`> no hex removal, no condi removal <Mortimer> not the prot mechanic, but that nothing introduces people to it <Auron`> well <Auron`> proph did <ViliBot> ehh <Auron`> I still remember the quest that gave you shielding hands and rof <Auron`> instead of spending 40 energy healing that warrior <Auron`> you spend 5 to prot her up <Mortimer> I don't :/ <Auron`> then maybe 5 more to use orison <Mortimer> this is presearing? <ViliBot> you could still spam orison and win, so I never learned it there :p <Auron`> yes presearing <Mortimer> yeah.. <Mortimer> I ditched presearing asap <Auron`> ah <Auron`> I learned that on my ele <Mortimer> 2 party limit pissed me off :P <Auron`> he got to level9 before I was bored <Auron`> cos I thought that uh <Auron`> pre was the entire game <ViliBot> you too? :p <Belar> Lol. <Auron`> then I went to post and was like <Auron`> waaaaaaaat <Mortimer> GW was a pretty cool game (we'd played the betas), so I got together with a couple friends to play. And, of course, this huge neat part of the game won't let us play together <Belar> Yeah, I made the same mistake. <Auron`> yea <Auron`> i think they need to put in some higher party limits in some areas <ViliBot> I played in pre till like lv12, or whenever you stop getting experience without deathlevel <Auron`> just for shits and giggles <Belar> I kept trying to figure out how you got to kryta in pre. :? <Auron`> like if youve beaten proph <Auron`> unlock a 4 player pre mode <Mortimer> that'd be a nice reward <Mortimer> or 8 player hardmode presearing! <Mortimer> :o <Auron`> or for holidays, have more than 4 people in your party in shing jea <ViliBot> 12-man ring of fire obaby <Auron`> yeah <Auron`> that would be interesting <Auron`> presearing was pretty <Auron`> I loved just roaming around and exploring <Mortimer> yeah, I enjoyed wandering, but after opening day I haven't enjoyed it <Belar> Same. The intro areas seem to be the prettyest. <ViliBot> I like wandering in pre coz most mobs will leave you alone after awhile :\ <Auron`> ^ <Binary10> what, you don't like the level 6 kappa that'll die if you sneeze on it chasing you halfway across a map? <Auron`> they really need to introduce monsterless areas <ViliBot> it's irritating <Mortimer> vanq it, and you can go into it monsterless <Auron`> I would love to wander around DoA <ViliBot> yeah but that requires work mortimer <Mortimer> add a third difficulty: Normal, Hard, Cleared <ViliBot> onice <Mortimer> nono <Belar> Yeah. <Auron`> problem is <Mortimer> it would be a permanent option <Auron`> doa has no vanquish <Mortimer> hm <Mortimer> that's a problem, yeah <Binary10> cleared would just work on it anyway! <Belar> Add a vanquish for doa. <Mortimer> heh <Belar> Solved. <Auron`> no belar <Auron`> lol <Binary10> beat the last mission in hard mode and unlock cleared mode <ViliBot> add a vanquish for sorrow's furnace <Mortimer> just beat doa/UW/etc and it counts as cleared <Binary10> no quests in any area, gates open, etc. <Auron`> I wouldn't mind that too much vili <Auron`> but <Auron`> all of the SF skins and areas were reused in eotn <Auron`> :< <ViliBot> my favorite place after pre <ViliBot> yeah :( <ViliBot> actually, the bridge was reused in factions <ViliBot> it's in sunjiang district (bit smaller though) <Belar> Lazy artists. :( <ViliBot> they're working on gw2/you have no idea how much work it takes to put something into the game/Live Team has no artists/FIELD_OTHER <Belar> I pick the last one. <Mortimer> Eh, the Canthans just hired some dwarven architects to work in sunjiang <Auron`> lmao <Belar> Yeah, they brought them in through the mole tunnel from sf. <ViliBot> yeah just like Oola built the Iron Forgeman...owait <ViliBot> having more connectivity between the continents would be interesting, esp if it wasn't retarded Asura Gates <ViliBot> the teleporter from Crystal Overlook to The Arid Sea = very nice <ViliBot> not to mention how excited all the cartography/lore people got, enough to even run triangulation tests etc.... <Belar> Yeah, now if only I could switch maps to something other than the continent I'm on. <Belar> Yes, I thought that was rather amusing. <Belar> And sad. <ViliBot> if they changed the world map to include all four campaigns <ViliBot> I dunno, I just hate having to stop in port cities <ViliBot> esp during evnts etc <Belar> Yes, that's my big problem. <Binary10> especially since one has a 4 party size limit <Binary10> and another 6 <Belar> Getting to shing jea is hell. <ViliBot> and to get to pvp, I use the "Travel to guild hall" button <Binary10> why doesn't it dump you to the consolate docks, party limit 8 ? <Belar> Whith bad load times, that is. <ViliBot> because when you first travel to istan, you don't have access to consulate docks? <Binary10> no reason you shouldn't <Binary10> how did you get there ? <ViliBot> you need to do A Time for Heroes or some other bs mission <Binary10> you go out through the docks <ViliBot> restricted area, authorized personnel only <Binary10> so you take boats from the docks but you can't actually go to the docks until you do some quests. Yes <Belar> Anet: Logic kings. <ViliBot> well you could say the same thing about getting to Sanctum Cay/Ring of Fire <Binary10> instead, you're forced to split your party in half to fit into the zone if you want to go play some later-game NF <Binary10> it's the party size that's the problem Vili, not the exact place you end up :P <ViliBot> I'm sure it could be abused by people who want to vanquish The Consulate <Binary10> consulate docks is already 8 party size <Binary10> and has no attached explorable to vanquish <ViliBot> you missed the point, there are no monsters in The Consulate <Binary10> ah <Binary10> needle got stuck <ViliBot> I wonder, if your character was named Timera/Gehraz/etc <Binary10> requires two names <ViliBot> Timera [Fighter Henchman] ? <Binary10> rofl <ViliBot> I dunno, was just thinking of the trick where you can have "8-man" in istan <ViliBot> kamadan rather <Binary10> isn't it pretty much fixed? <Belar> I think so. <Binary10> last time I tried it I got some weird mismash party under the limit <ViliBot> I've heard some people say that <Binary10> it seems half fixed <Belar> Last time I tried my party got split. <Binary10> sometimes you can still get 5 or 6 people in <Binary10> either way, it's irritating <Belar> No, it's anet. <Belar> Anyways, good night. <ViliBot> I'm sure the code is very complicated <Belar> Yes, prtysize=4 <Auron`> Binary10 - the one where party members appear above the party box? <Auron`> or where it says 8/8 when there are only 7? <Auron`> lol <Binary10> >< <Binary10> more like <Binary10> "How did it decide to split us like that ?" <Binary10> I never managed any of those glitches <Binary10> though they sound hilarious >.>
 * Wyn (~Wyn@eileenlufkin-host21.dsl.visi.com) has left #gww
 * Binary10 smacks his sarcasm detector
 * Belar smacks Binary.
 * Binary10 slaps a large trout around a bit with Belar
 * Belar fries the large tout.

gummy bears
<PhoenixBot> btw Gummibär is not bad, he is too cute.... zzzz doesn't look liek a real gummybear at all though <ViliBot> I eat gummy bears in Soviet Russia, ... <ViliBot> ? ... gummibär eats you! "Haribo pleases kids and adults alike" is the slogan of the leading German Gummibär brand "Haribo macht Kinder froh, und Erwachsene ebenso" (no joke) <ViliBot> -_- a mind in the gutter can be a wonderful thing ;-)
 * ViliBot thinks of an obscene joke about new candy "Pedobears"

WoW is fun
<Auron`> oh man <Auron`> I can't believe that name wasn't taken <Belar> Oh? <Auron`> I have a tauren druid named "ym" <Vili> :p <Mortimer> ym's a tauren druid <Auron`> precisely <Auron`> cant wait until i get titles <Belar> :D <Auron`> "captain ym" <Auron`> "master fisherman ym"

Kids These Days
"Pugging was a lot easier back when there were more PUGs. Should be a no brainer but appearantly I had to spell it out." Two years ago there weren't 10 districts of people forming like there was a few days ago. You weren't around two years ago to see the terrible groups forming and all the elitism I had to endure. I had to deal with the same shitters in my timezone day after day, since there honestly weren't many people playing at midnight HST. Once I got higher ranked from grinding with those shitters, I could be a little more picky when I formed groups.

"you don't really understand what it's like." Yes, actually, I do. Heroes' Ascent was my favorite form of PvP - it was more serious than RA/TA yet not as demanding as guild battles. Even back when I was a noob, I hated doing RA. People would tell me to RA for faction, and I just hated it - so I spent most of my noob time in HA. I spent hours reading over skills at the priest of balthazar, deciding what I should unlock next. I'd ask for bars in all chat so I could have them unlocked by the time I needed to join a group. I got about 6 fame from a friend - just enough to get me hooked. In that 6 fame, I lost in relic runs, broken tower and courtyard, and honestly didn't have a clue what to do in any of them. So I obsed matches and watched guilds like iQ and Team Quitter hold halls for hours, stomp other teams in relic runs and king of the hill... and I learned what each map took. Lastly, I learned quickly that the best way to avoid elitism is to form your own parties. If you want to HA, start an unranked group - you'll fill up on people very very quickly. You get to pick the build, the players, and the best part is it happens quickly. If you detest elitism so much, be a beacon of kindness for those other new players and start pugs on your own. It's how I made most of the way to r3 - since two years ago, elitism wasn't a new fad. People were rejecting me from groups back then, just like they're rejecting you now. When I made my own groups, I kept in touch with the good players (regardless of rank), and formed better and better groups as time went on. When you get 5 or 6 "good" unranked players, you can start winning UW without trouble, and working on harder and harder maps. Before long you'll be ranked, and as soon as you can flash a bambi getting into groups is *much* easier.

You seem to think life was easy 2 years ago. You seem to think people just handed me fame and said "it's ok, you're auron, you can just start ranked." That's simply ridiculous. I was an unranked nobody. I couldn't just say "hi" in all chat and get ranked groups inviting me like I do now - people just ignored me back then. It took a long time of building up my friends list and rank before it started being a lot of fun. Either way, your suggested change is terrible and won't solve anything. I hope you know that and are just using it as an excuse to rant about elitism. -Auron 23:36, 24 February 2009 (UTC)