Talk:Mark of Rodgort

Oh man, it's going to work with Searing Flames even better now! --BeeD 00:10, 7 February 2007 (CST)

Wow! Buffed in Test Weekend to _nearby_...


 * This is going to make the Combo with Barrage even better --125.255.13.24 04:44, 21 January 2007 (CST)

Sigh. Like everything else in the update, 1...4 is the range for 0...15. We use 0...12. --Fyren 00:14, 29 Aug 2005 (EST)

My good grief is this skill now a REAL burninator! Mass hex plus some application of AoE fire makes everything burn for a good long while. Kessel 09:43, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Indeed. Fiery bow string + Barrage + Mark of Rodgort = a freaking PvE Bonfire!--[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  14:49, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
 * There's gotta be space for an elementalist in a B/P team now, what with this + water hexes to slow + wards... Just one barrager with a firey bow string would be enough, no need for evberybody to lose the Orders bonus. --NieA7 10:24, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
 * No need for a Ranger to lose his Orders bonus at all. Have the ele bring the fire weapon.  :D  [[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  10:31, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Interesting point. I was looking at the 5 second recharge and reduced cost - the Ele could spread this around a bit (especially if they bring Echo) resulting in a giant pile of crispy Grasps the next time a firey Barrage is used... --NieA7 10:34, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Should add a note: Use with Glyph of Lesser Energy. Especially with the new update to it!  omg... this is just too insane!  A nerf will be soon to follow I know it has too because this sounds like too much fun (unless on the receiving end).[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  10:47, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
 * TBH, a Fiery Barrager already has points in Fire and 15 energy isn't too much for him if he uses a Zealous bow. I'm pretty sure the Ranger could bring this all by himself, making this a valid PvE pick-up-and-go build. Kessel 10:49, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
 * This is exactly why I added this variant to . You'd need to bring Conflagration to offset the lack of a fiery string but you could also just use a fiery string with the Glyph instead of a Zealous string for energy management too.[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  10:53, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

Of course, I just realized that the mobs AI has changed again too and since I haven't played this they probably scatter from Barrage now and run off the zone edge on hit or some wacky crazy behavior like that whish would ruin the whole thing.  Vallen Frostweaver  10:55, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I just went out to test with the following loadout: Conflag, Con Flame, MoRod, Barrage, Glyph of Lesser. It is FUN. Kessel 11:21, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm at work. I hate you... (_;) [[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  11:35, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Alright, I just went out with a Fiery string in place of Conflag. Short form - W. O. A. H. Use the glyph to manage your energy. It does so much damage I feel like crying - I saved the template right away. Kessel 12:15, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Good to know. I am envious as I won't be able to try this out for a while.  Oh well.  Enjoy it while you can.  :D  [[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  12:19, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Eh, when work is over you can come join the burnination. *grin* Kessel 12:21, 26 October 2006 (CDT)
 * You know I will. Back to basics with a burning ranger build again.  I love it.[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  12:39, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

Wow, this skill is incredibly powerful, what with this then something like Fireball, at 16 Fire Magic, and 3 foes hit (often more, but we'll use 3 as an example) you'll deal (116 X 3) + (14 X 4 X 3) = 507 damage (against 60 AL targets) and an additional 56 damage to every foe hit by fire damage in the 37 seconds of the duration of the hex, for just 25 energy O.O (or 15 with GoLE) OMG NURF LOLZORD, this is almost overpowered now.. not that I'M complaining >:D Terrifi Cani 14:31, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Well, it's still a hex, and it's still conditional. I was surprised by the fact that they gave a cost decrease AND the adjacent status, and while I'm really quite pleased with it, I don't think it's all that bad, in terms of potential broken-ness.  Merengue 14:43, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
 * But this is alot like Glimmering Mark which is elite. Glimmer is only one person but when hit with lighting, it spreads its condition as opposed to the Mark which spreads the hex but not the condition. This matches with air magic being usually for one opponent and fire for many foes. With its reduced energy cost, this spell is now practically a must on my bar in PvE and for when I roll a fire ele in PvP. And because it's not elite, combining with Greater Conflagration can add a huge boost to the attacks of warriors and rangers. &mdash; JediRogue  [[Image:JediRogueSig.jpg]] (talk | contribs)
 * Yes, I agree. It makes a R/E a lot more fun to play again.  I grew up as an R/E back before the AoE scatter was introduced and had fun.  Then the scatter came in and lots of fun left and I switched proffessions to R/Mo for a while.  Now, I see the Conjure's are back up to par and Rodgort's is more fun too.  Finally able to see some R/E back on the playing field is a nice treat indeed.--[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  07:07, 3 November 2006 (CST)
 * With this skill seriously overpowered, why are there renewal/echo nukers still around? Ignoring this skill entirely, fireball spam alone renewal MS. Toss in Mark, and now you see a bunch of eles running around thinking they're awesome with their renewal/echo MS. -.- ...--8765 18:15, 28 November 2006 (CST)
 * The problem remains that the newer PvE AI seems to run around a lot which makes MoR not as 'overpowered' as one may think. Besides, the spell can be used against us as well.--[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  08:23, 29 November 2006 (CST)
 * Vallan, I'm not seeing them running around due to it. It's odd, I'd almost say that the fire condition is overriding the Barrage=AOE effect.  And agreed with the original poster - this skill is durn impressive.Mbourgon 01:11, 3 December 2006 (CST)
 * In one of the updates (I forget which) the AI has been changed so that if the HP of the monsters is >90% they won't run from AoE spells. In fact I noticed that a mob I was attacking once totally ignored the Barrage/MoR attacks I was using. Pre-update MoR was very limited in its utility to elems. Almost no one else was able to cast it without draining themselves or use Glyph Of Energy. Now with the bonus that Glyph of Lesser Energy affects 2 spells it is very energy efficient to use it on MoR and Conjure Flame (obvious I know). I am thinking that I will try it with my echo Elem. MS and MoR and has been suggested. With the starburster variant it could be very sneaky, GoLE run in starburst, MoR, inferno/flame burst. Bang instant AoE flashfire.--203.192.146.68 21:02, 14 January 2007 (CST)

I've checked with 2 seperate accounts and I'm not seeing Mark of Rodgort for sale from Sorim in Quarrel Falls.BladeDVD 23:55, 2 November 2006 (CST)BladeDVD

I just got lions arch with my new nightfall ele and Sergio trains for this skill. Ammend!!!!!!!!!! He also seems to do rodgorts invocation....Faction 21:21, 1 December 2006 (CST)
 * Sergio doesn't teach the skill unless you already had it unlocked on your account. All skill trainers sell unlocked skills. --Valentein 21:26, 1 December 2006 (CST)
 * That's the handiest bit of of information I've learned about GW in a long time, :D . Faction 00:06, 2 December 2006 (CST)
 * It's not entirely true, though. All skill trainers sell all unlocked Core skills. But a Factions trainer will not, for example, sell you an unlocked Prophecies or Nightfall skill, while Prophecies and Nightfall trainers will not sell unlocked Factions skills. At least, that is how I understand if from what I've read and experienced, I don't use a lot of different characters, so it's rare that I've unlocked a skill without having it. PurpleXVI 13:56, 16 December 2006 (CST)

I actually have fun using this skill in conjunction with Barrage, a Recurve Bow with Fiery Bow String, and Conjure Flame. In fact, I already made an effective build using these as an advantage as a Elementalist/Ranger (note: I found a greater advantage as a Ele/Ranger with the combo ) --Dark Paladin X 15:46, 19 March 2007 (CDT)

Ok, the person who is removing the "*With a fire weapon, combine with Conjure Flame to inflict extra damage as well as burning." on the notes should stop that. The Conjure Flame/Rodgort combo is effective. You can set your target on fire AND deal extra damage.--Dark Paladin X 17:58, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

broken?
I think this skill is non-functional. I've tried every fire damage dealing skill in the Fire Magic line and the fiery weapon upgrade, but it won't trigger Mark. I've tried on
 * Stone Scale Kirin and Undergrowths in Pongmei Valley,
 * Jade Brotherhood Knights in Wajjun Bazaar,
 * Avicara and Azure Shadows in Talus Chute,
 * Skales in Fahranur,
 * Crimson Skulls, Kappa, Oni, and Bonesnap Turtles in Haiju Lagoon.

Rarely, it does work, but then only on a single foe while not on the others, even of the same type

Can anyone confirm? --RolandOfGilead 11:56, 16 December 2006 (CST)


 * Works fine for me. You're saying your target never gets set on fire or what?  --Fyren 12:45, 16 December 2006 (CST)


 * Yes, the target never gets set on fire. video here, tell me if you have trouble viewing it, but I think it should become clear. The Undergrowth gets hit by Flare twice while hexed, but is not set on fire. Note that while testing, again, I have come across foes where Mark does work normally, but usually not. --RolandOfGilead 13:40, 16 December 2006 (CST)


 * Hmm, for me Avicara and Azure Shadows burn just fine. But I've found that Siege Ice Golems in Grenth's Footprint don't seem to burn. Hex 'em, cast Fire Storm, and no burning...It could be that certain enemies in the game are immune to burning, though I doubt it. Perhaps cast Immolate on them and see if they burn? 24.6.147.36 13:46, 16 December 2006 (CST)


 * Uh, isn't skill 7 on your bar Stone Striker? --Fyren 13:47, 16 December 2006 (CST)
 * Oh snap. Yes it is. Didn't think of that. Guess that solves this "mystery" --RolandOfGilead 13:49, 16 December 2006 (CST)


 * Haha :D. I better go check to see if Siege Ice Golem burns or not, with other spells...then there'd be a real mystery. 24.6.147.36 13:57, 16 December 2006 (CST)

I've been using this skill alot with Searing Flames, and I haven't found anything that doesn't burn. I've tried it on siege golems. They burn/melt just fine. StatMan 12:40, 15 January 2007 (CST)


 * Yea, this skill is totally nasty when combined with searing flame and breath of fire/fire storm.--Saranis 02:40, 20 January 2007 (CST)


 * Ah sorry, I should have corrected myself. They do burn, I was just having trouble seeing the flames (and they had another condition on them anyways). Entropy 15:23, 20 January 2007 (CST)

The Conjure Flame note...
"With a fire weapon, combine with Conjure Flame to inflict extra damage as well as burning." is unnecessary. Conjure Flame deals extra damage... so what? It's not good skill synergy, in fact, Conjure Flame is mostly a waste of energy (another enchantment for a spellcaster to maintain, for a very minimal benefit... and plain stupid on warriors etc). I don't want to remove it outright, seeing a number of recent edits and not wanting to break GW:1RV, so I'll let User:Dark Paladin X defend his note. -Auron  18:02, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm going through ALL skills removing notes like those. 2/10 done. –Ichigo724[[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 18:11, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

Synergy with Fragility?
Fragility adds damage everytime foe suffers new condition. If you keep your fire magic low, so its only 1 second burning duration - and attack with slightly higher than 1 swing per second speed, does this mean you can trigger fragility with every swing ?!
 * Better off going IW if you want to play like that. –Ichigo724[[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 18:36, 29 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Well but then you could play IW from midline..?M s4 22:48, 29 April 2007 (CDT)
 * IW = low level PvP anyway. Doesn't matter that much if you're up in someone's face in RA or not. –Ichigo724[[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 11:23, 30 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I was being sarcastic. IW isn't very good. M s4 17:30, 30 April 2007 (CDT)

MM hero with greater conflaguration + Fire ele with Mark of Rodgort
greater conflag changes all physical dmg into fire dmg and minions attack whatever is around. So maybe put this on a ele hero for some dgen spreading. Reason i even considered this is because i kinda wanna make my paragon into a defensive Leadership/motivation with "they are on fire". Im survivor so it would be great if i wasnt front line :-)

Icon
Kinda looks like the picture for your USB ports(with of course the flame at one end): anyone?-- Thelordofblah  05:00, 28 June 2007 (CDT)

Lava Arrows
Why did you take Lava Arrows off? It the only AoE Fire skill that has a recharge short enought to keep Mark of Rodgort active non-stop. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Done25 (contribs).
 * Searing Flames, using more than 1 fire magic spell, the PBAoE fire spells (though would be a lot trickier). Those all work. --8765 20:28, 25 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Yeh, or just juggle Mind Blast around - but keeping them all burning doesn't match the damage of a good old-fashioned nuke, so you might wanna keep lava arrows off your bar :P - Auron 20:31, 25 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Lava arrows is pretty sucky anyways. Half ranged, capped number of hits, meh damage, and could miss (though less likely at half range). --8765 20:35, 25 July 2007 (CDT)
 * ARRRG! Why can't you two let me get a word in? (It keeps getting cancelled) Anyways here it is. SF is elite and you might want something else. Yes you can use other fire Aoe spells but other than Fireball and Liquid Flame they all have a 30 sec recharge. Lava Arrows allows you to keep the AoE burning up easily. Done25 20:39, 25 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Which doesn't matter, because mere burning sucks. You're a nuker, NUKE! Throwing fireballs/liquid flames/savannah heats/meteor showers all do more damage than merely keeping a mob on fire. It'd take a minute and a half for some mobs to die from fire degen, when it'd take ~10 seconds for them to get nuked to death. - Auron 20:45, 25 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I know this. It still doesn't hurt to spam Lava Arrows at the end of the game where your foes have over 500 health.
 * You're right. It doesn't hurt (the enemy) to spam Lava Arrows at the end of the game where everything has loads of health and armor --Gimmethegepgun 21:02, 25 July 2007 (CDT)
 * This is assuming you have 16 Fire Magic and are fighting 5 adjacent foes.

Fireball - 10 energy 2 sec cast 7 sec recharge 119 damage to ADJACENT foes.

Lava Arrows - 5 energy 1 second cast 2 sec recharge 68 damage to NEARBY foes.

0 seconds - Fireball 0 damage / Lava 0

1 second - Fireball 0 damage / Lava 204

2 seconds - Fireball 595 damage / Lava 204

3 seconds - Fireball 595 damage / Lava 204

4 seconds - Fireball 595 damage / Lava 408

5 seconds - Fireball 595 damage / Lava 408

6 seconds - Fireball 595 damage / Lava 408

7 seconds - Fireball 595 damage / Lava 612

8 seconds - Fireball 595 damage / Lava 612

9 seconds - Fireball 595 damage / Lava 612

10 seconds - Fireball 595 damage / Lava 612

11 seconds - Fireball 1190 damage / Lava 816

In terms of damage Fireball is clearly better. (Against 5 foes) Now to calculate the burning in. At 11 seconds you get 6*14 = 84*5 = 412 for Fireball for Lava you get 11*14 = 154 * 3 = 462. add them for a total of 1190 + 412 = 1602 damage for fireball and 1278 for lava. This is if oyu have 5 adjacent foes. Want to know what happenes to the damage if they are nearby instead?


 * And you're an ele sitting up at about area range from the enemy hitting them with a half-range spell. Lava arrows may be annoying when used by those afflicted eles, but that's because of their level and the fact that when they explode you're close enough to get hit by it due to the range they had to be in for lava arrows --Gimmethegepgun 00:26, 26 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Seriously. Searing flames. It maybe elite and been nerfed over and over, but it's still way better than lava arrows, and gains huge returns under mark of rodgort. Lava arrows is VERY poor skill for any nuker, since it has half-range, capped number of hits, and low damage. In other words, lava arrows is a terrible idea for trying to maintain burning thru mark of rodgort. --8765 13:18, 26 July 2007 (CDT)
 * And what if you aren't an Ele? What if you are a paragon with They're on Fire and Glowing Signet and a higher AL?  What if you arenen't a nuker?  What if those targets have higher than 60AL and the damage to them is reduced against Fireball?  What if there were more spells than Searing Flames in the fire magic line that were used?  Just some thoughts I had... --[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  14:52, 29 July 2007 (CDT)
 * If you're a Paragon/Elementalist using Fire Magic, then you phail. Seriously - Flaregon ftl. Bring an SF Hero or player with you, use Blazing Spear, use Blazing Finale, use Anthem of Flame. Para might have higher armor, but even with high Leadership it is pretty damn expensive to try and keep Mark of Rodgort up and spam Lava Arrows at the same time. If your targets have higher than 60AL and the damage to them is reduced against Fireball, then the damage from Lava Arrows will also be reduced, what's your point? Constant Burning easier with Lava Arrows? Again, just use the Para skills. Or good old Incendiary Bonds. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 16:02, 29 July 2007 (CDT)
 * I didn't say that a Flamagon was the way to go. Just saying that there are alternate ideas out there (even if that one was pretty poor).  What if you were to combine SF AND Fire Arrows then?  Alternate between them and you have plenty of burning & damage and then you don't worry so much about the difference between the two (fireball and lava arrowa) and can keep MoR on them to continue the burning regarless.  Lava Arrows does help in this aspect as it's quicker to recharge than Fireball. and it would allow the targets to keep a constant burn.  Bring all three if you like.  I just don't like the fact that so many comments on here are saying SF is better than Lava Arrows - of ourse it is - it's elite.  But nothing saying that it can't be used or someone should be shunned for using it. --[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  12:18, 30 July 2007 (CDT)
 * But, you should be shunned for using it. Lava Arrows sucks no matter what class you are or what build you're running. >.> Nevertheless, the note stays there because it is true only in terms of keeping up Burning. But that's it. Use Lava Arrows for "They're on Fire!", but for serious damage you use something else. Combining SF and Lava Arrows is redundant, SF recharges as fast as Lava Arrows and you don't want to be wasting energy in an SF build on unnecessary and risky (1/2 range) spells. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 14:50, 30 July 2007 (CDT)
 * So it's not the best skill. Whatever, never claimed it was.  You still can unlock it before you can any Elites like Searing Flames if working your character through a campaign and therefore it can be useful for a time (especially with less attributes and an extra energy pool from /bonus or high end weapons to work with too).  Everything GW isn't about endgame content.  But once off the island you can cap it and make the permanent switch.  Either way, I'm not going to continue to defend lava arrows.  Sure it's not that good compared to others but it does have uses (though extrememly limited) unlike others as you stated.  --[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  19:41, 30 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Flare is better in terms of raw damage, which is just sad. That's all I have to say to make Lava Arrows the worst Fire Magic skill...other than maybe Elemental Flame... [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 19:50, 1 August 2007 (CDT)

Moved from top
Anyone noticed that the mark on the skills image looks a bit like a pointy trangular head with a good beefy arm coming out the back of it's neck?


 * Er, no o_O--Cobalt | Talk  16:43, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


 * So...basically...not like a head at all? 71.139.4.38 04:39, 9 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, it IS Trogdor...um, I mean Rodgort's mark, so you never know...--[[Image:Elementalist-icon-small.png]] UlmoSan 04:18, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

wait what
So OK, there's a note that says:
 * Can be combined with Fragility for repeated damage: bring a fire wand, and up to 2 ranks of Fire magic. The burning will last only 1 second, so it will expire before your next attack hits, making Fragility trigger twice per attack.

... which sounded so cool! Except wait. If you're keeping Fire Magic low enough to do that, you only get 13s of duration from MoR. That's not even maintainable! It seems like the note is suggesting spending 15 energy per 16 seconds (~3 pips of degen) in order to cause 40 damage per 3.5 seconds (1.75 wand attack -> 1s for Burning to drop off -> 0.75s left on next wand attack), in exchange for paralyzing your Mesmer or Ele into doing nothing but wanding. Am I missing something? -- AudreyChandler 09:51, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, you are - the notes were added by people who are bad at the game. I haven't got around to finishing my "Purge Bad Skill Notes" project yet, so far I've only done Warrior. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 10:00, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You probably don't wanna read Bed of Coals, then. -- AudreyChandler 10:07, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd consider keeping the Searing Flames note, but then I also considered that Searing Flames is kinda lame if only 1 person is using it. In a team with 2+ SF eles, the "dead cast" (at the note called it) isn't so much of an issue because only 1 person has to do it. --Macros 11:56, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I was gonna ask Entropy about that but was too tired last night to respond properly. The Searing Flames note seems reasonable, doesn't it? I tried it out and it does work (solo-SF'ing), although it's not particularly great since MoR and SF cost the same Energy and have the same cast time. But it does have a tiny convenience factor. However, remember that I am a gigantic newbie so if MoR->SF really is a bad note, could you explain why? x] -- AudreyChandler 18:05, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Talk:Searing_Flames [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 21:23, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Hey, thanks! Although, from that discussion, it still sounds like a reasonable, albeit not cutting-edge, skill combo. Are "Notes" supposed to suggest uses for a skill that may not immediately jump out, or are they supposed to suggest strong uses (which can vary based on current tastes and balances)? -- AudreyChandler 21:41, 20 April 2009 (UTC)
 * "The notes section essentially contains all information that is not covered by the other sections: bugs, clarifications, usage suggestions, particular combinations with other skills, and so on. Each distinct note should be its own list item. Remember to only add a note if it is useful and not obvious, don't just add notes for the sake of it." (emphasis mine)
 * The thing is, in PvP no one will use MoR with SF eles, because that means you'd only have like one of them, and that's a bad idea. SF is always used with multiple copies so it mops the floor. In such a case, MoR is of very limited use because it not only marks your spikes in advance, it only saves one SF ele one cast or such. It's not even the initial cast that is saved, but rather every third/fouth. That's rather useless because things should be dead by then.
 * In PvE, SF kinda sucks. Monsters have much higher armor level than players, especially in Hard Mode. You can still stack a bunch of SF eles and steamroll some stuff...MoR would barely help there. You could take just one SF ele to spread Burning for "They're on Fire!" imbagons, but MoR again does very little to help there...sure, it's the ideal case where you just use it with one person to reap maximum benefit, but you're not using the SF for damage there, you're using it to maintain Burning and provide utility. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 21:54, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Wow, ty... that was very educational. I appreciate you taking the time to spell it out for me. And you know, the more I think about it, the note about MoR should probably be on Searing Flames '  page, since it's a very specific suggestion and more of a way to squeeze more blood out of SF than a way to use MoR itself more effectively. It seems the SF page has the note already, should it be removed or modified there too? Maybe something like:
 * ''"Combining Searing Flames with Mark of Rodgort allows the damage from Searing Flames to be triggered continuously after the first cast, instead of having to waste every 3rd or 4th cast renewing Burning. Note, however, that the usefulness of this strategy diminishes if your party has multiple Elementalists using Searing Flames, as it will already be maintained without much effort, and that this strategy is likely to be ineffective in PvP."
 * So people can use the idea if they like it, since it does function, but they also get an idea of why they might not want to in deeper/more serious gameplay situations. -- AudreyChandler 22:15, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

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