GuildWiki talk:Wintersday/Wiki decorations

So I'm Mr. Fancy-pants, eh?
The only thing I see there that would qualify as "fancy" is the snowballs. The icons and site background are simple to change and the icicles can be done in CSS (I think). I'll poke around to see if there's any "rolling snowball" snippets I can copy, and I'll keep an eye out for anything else that might be interesting. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 06:38, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I didnt realise there was a page for it. Me and mendel were talking about this last night :P. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 12:16, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I suggest several links to this page as a special wintersday treat to the dudes on Gwiki. =P--Darksyde  08:13, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Get Maui to come back, and I'll support you.[[Image:Ereanorsign.jpg]]reanor 16:52, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Avoid the Javascript snowballs (cringes as I remember the 90's). Background as snow sounds great. --rage_italic 18:55, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

This is a rough picture, but I wanted to know if this is what you were talking about &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tenetke (talk &bull; contribs) 23:09, 30 November 2008 (UTC).


 * Maybe the snowball only on mainpage, updates, community portal, admin noticeboard? And recent changes? :-} That Logo looks awesome! Sold! --◄mendel► 23:18, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The snowball shouldn't appear anywhere that it might obstruct reading. So not recent changes imo. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 23:25, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, then it could roll down the sidebar? --◄mendel► 23:32, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Scrap the snowball and make js snow fall on the main page.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]] Entrea   [Talk]  00:06, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * ^ that [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 00:09, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) I was just gonna pop in here and say that I found a snowfall snippet we could use: . The same idea could be adapted for a rolling snowball, but I prefer snowflakes, too.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 00:10, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * See Snow for less cartoony flakes. --◄mendel► 02:31, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank for putting it in a box like that. I have no idea how to do it myself. Also sorry I forgot to sign beforeTenetke 02:54, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * !! Wow! That logo is pro. Nice job :) For teh snow, I think that lightly falling snow would be nice...the "flakes" would need to be small enough not to make page unreadable, of course. If we wanted to do a snowball, then there is this big white space to the right of teh content which is normally used for sidebar ad - we could put it there maybe?
 * One issue I have with the iycecles right now is that they are "on top of" the rest of the content, so they obscure the site notice and stuff. Any way we could do "send to back"? (or find more transparant ones?) But anyway, good work on everything so far. :) [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 04:20, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Warwick thinks she can fix that, she's going to try tomorrow. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 04:33, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Although Teneke alrdy made a nice one, I just want to publsh mine too (since, well I allrdy made it). --GW-Wesley 11:28, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I like how the staff is larger and more visible in your version, but I like Tenetke's crossed staffs, too, echoing the crossed swords in the regular version. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:45, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If you use a multilayer format you can move the shield behind the image so to speak so that the wrapper of the shield will not overlay the original image. Just a suggestion, I like your image also. As a side note that one I made was really rough, I am going to put a high res version today that will look better. If you want Wesley I can give you the layer profile for it. The icon I was working on at a higher profile is on my user page. I still don't think it is good enough. I think the rotation of the candy canes are off by a some degrees from looking right. Any suggestions are more than welcome [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke Mekko 21:31, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Snowflakes
We have snowflakes! Only enabled for Main Page/editcopy at this time, you'll probably have to force-refresh to see it. Let me know what y'all think. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 05:31, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, that looked a lot different in my mind...I thought they were going to be smaller and on the boxes. Something like [[Image:MP_thingy_Ereanor.jpg|thumb|this]]. Also, I made a little play with colors, you can work on it if you're interested, Mr. Fancy-pants.[[Image:Ereanorsign.jpg]]reanor 05:47, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not working for me, even on force-refresh and purge. Is this one of those "go and clear the whole cache" times? Or it doesn't work for IE? Or your .js is interfering with some other .js ? (the favicon isn't working for me anymore) [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:48, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, it's fixed now. My wiki-coding skills are kinda rusty.[[Image:Ereanorsign.jpg]]reanor 05:52, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * A main problem is that you can't click on links behind them.(Icicles)--Łô√ë [[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg|Fear.]]îğá†ħŕášħ 05:54, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Well my wiki coding skills are nonexistent, but I like the icicles. Is there a way to change them so that you can click on the text behind them though? I can't wait to see what it will look like with the snow effect. Tenetke 06:39, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I can't see the snowflakes, even after repeated ctrl+f5'ing :( NoScript is set to "allow all this page" and I see Entropy's having similar problems (though my favicon still works fine).  &not; Wizårdbõÿ777  ( talk ) 16:10, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Bah, that's my fault for not testing - turns out wgPageName uses underscores instead of spaces. It's working for me now.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:52, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


 * When you scroll down, there's an "edge" at which they stop :( Other than that; looks cool (literally!) --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  16:55, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Yea, they're working now :D  &not; Wizårdbõÿ777  ( talk ) 16:57, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


 * It can be configured for 'pageheight' or 'windowheight', the first makes them fall the entire length of the page, the second is what it's on now. Maybe pageheight would be better?  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 17:10, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


 * That would definatly improve the coolness factor :P --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  17:21, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I made it snow to pageheight on this page. We may need to increase the number of snowflakes so they're not so sparse on long pages (might be possible to scale that dynamically based on page length).
 * I guess the next step is to decide if we want to make it snow over the whole wiki or only on certain namespaces/pages? &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 17:32, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Entropy's talkpage is ppl's choice, that's one right there.[[Image:Ereanorsign.jpg]]reanor 00:43, 2 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Moved the code to a separate page for easier maintenance. Will be debugging it. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 02:24, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * These flakes are rather annoying.. there's decoration and then there's easy usage without unnecessary distractions :/. Is there a way to disable them for myself? -- R [[Image:RPhalange star.png|18px]] Phalange  02:29, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * !! Who moved it to apply to every page? It's only supposed to work on the editcopy of the mainpage. >.> Any who, page height would be best, the snowflakes are irritating on the edit window >.<, and I'd allow them on my (talk)page. By the way, I'd prefer to have some better snowflakes, or at least make them less...neon blue... Hmm could I make rollerbeetles roll down the page? :) [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 02:35, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Was it applying to everypage? The bug was suppposed to disable it alltogether... -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 02:45, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It happens on every page. Although sometimes, the snowflakes get stuck at the top of the page now >.> [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 02:51, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I only see it on the two pages (tried with Random several times)... Anybody else? -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 02:54, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I assumed that since it was showing up on this page, it was showing up everywhere, since it's not supposed to work on this page (unless you designated it the new page to test on). I'm American and confused. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 02:59, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Before I did anything, the code was making it showing up ONLY on Main_Page/editcopy and GuildWiki_talk:Wintersday/Wiki_decorations. I left it the way I found it.  Here's your culprit, citing "pageheight test for snowflakes". -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 03:03, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I said above I was putting it on this page to show the pageheight option. >.> &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 03:10, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I am under the effects of [[Image:Wastrel's Worry.jpg|25px]]Failure! [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:15, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

(Reset indent) I can easily modify it to not display when editing, in fact I'll do that right now. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 03:18, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It shouldn't display during edit or show preview. Thanks...Personal .js to disable it would also be appreciated, I'm sure. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:20, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It only displays when wgAction == "view" (no snow during edit/preview/diff/history/etc). Users can disable by adding the following line to their js file:

noSnow = 1;
 * &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 18:12, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * For next year, I'm expecting a cookie version with a page where one can click to turn it off and on. That way, our anonymous vistors could turn the snow off as well. ;-) --◄mendel► 19:22, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Here it is the 12th, and I'm running Firefox on Redhat Linux and the snow isn't working on the editcopy. I didn't set up any personal js file, so is there something else I need to do to make it work? Nylana Greymoon 14:45, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * We're still trying to find where the snow went. It's not working for anyone at the moment. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 17:55, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * FINALLY got it working again. Tried about 20 different ways of implementing the user-disable option, most of them broke MediaWiki's runOnloadFuncts somehow.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 22:31, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Peppermint sheild with candy canes looks bad. I say we use the Gingerbread Shield - Rabus 21:49, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Shield Discussion
Peppermint shield is much harder to do than the Gingerbread Shield. I can do either one, the reason I went with peppermint is it was mentioned on the project page. I will go ahead and do a version with the Gingerbread Shield now so people can compare the two. As a side note it is really hard to get used to not putting ; at the end of every line.Tenetke Mekko 22:08, 2 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Just put one up on my user page that you can take a look at and compare. Not sure which one looks better to be honest. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke Mekko 22:27, 2 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Peppermint's better, IMO. Do this:

Which logo do you like better? Peppermint Shield Logo Gingerbread Shield Logo
 * and you'll get a simple poll on your page; the vote tally will be rest if you edit the text of the poll. --◄mendel► 22:42, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, took care of that right now. I agree the peppermint is better. It really feels like more like Christmas. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke Mekko 23:05, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The peppermint logo looks great and way better then the gingerbread (i voted aswell). Gaia Iberia 15:30, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Dark Icicles?
I'm not sure wether anybody else has this, but due to the darkness of the icicles some text at the top of the page is less clear. So maybe something lighter would be nice aswell? Gaia Iberia 16:05, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * OK, surely if we can put the ice crystals image in the backgrounds of the boxes, we can get the icicles where they don't get in the way of the text?[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]] Entrea   [Talk]  07:01, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, instant transparifier in GIMP is much the useful.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]] Entrea   [Talk]  07:07, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Snow, Ice and Trees
I've got a preliminary css that changes the background of almost everything at User:M.mendel/monobook.css; the editcopy page alone is really not enough to do it justice, and it's not been tested with monaco either, so volunteers that want to copy it to their own .css pages and check it out are welcome/needed! The icicles don't really go with, though (maybe put them on the tables instead of ice?). --◄mendel► 18:22, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Tip for users of Firefox: the Web Developer add-on allows you to edit css on-the-fly, so you can test this out without having to edit your css on the wiki. I've tried it, and you'll want to make div.thumb (for thumbnail images) transparent, as well - it seems to have a hard-coded white background.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 19:12, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


 * That bug has been ironed out. After deciding that ice on every table is too intrusive, it now affects all standard-looking tables (or will in a day or so, for those who are testing my .css). The portlets/widgets on the left are currently transparent to the tress'n'snow background, but we could a) give them ice or b) a reduced version of Image:Rime ice-bright.jpg‎; also, maybe the ice should scroll with the page? (and it'd be good if it tiled properly). Thoughts? Opinions? --◄mendel► 02:19, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The User:M.mendel/monobook.css now includes Tenetke's peppermint logo, and User:M.mendel/monaco.css is open for your review. Just copy the content of these pages over to Special:MyPage/monobook.css or Special:MyPage/monaco.css, depending on your skin preference (default is monaco) and follow the instructions at the top of that page. --◄mendel► 09:10, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Looks really great, thanks for making it. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke Mekko 23:15, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * We now have better ice, thanks to Jio. I'm using it for the portlets/widgets and tables; it is now "glued" on the page content (because Jio's ice looks so good that it works visually even if the pattern starts anew in each box). To do: Felix found that the imported styles in monaco-common.css aren't really working 100% with the wintersday stuff, and I know that some of these common styles have made it into the site's monaco.css, but I'm not sure which ones remain and cause problems. I'm going to look into that when I have time if nobody beats me to it, though. Other than that, I'm pretty happy with the decoration now; I don't think we need to change the favicon, and I haven't found a good place for the icicles or presents to go, either, so maybe somebody wants to make a suggestion, else there won't be any (place them on the mainpage?); where has the snow disappeared to, though? it looked good. --◄mendel► 00:47, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You can put everything onto my page and my talkpage, and maybe icicles for the mainpage if someone can fix so they don't obscure links. I don't know where snow went, it seems to have disappeared. (Snow should only go on like one page other than mine, it's bit disruptive) [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 00:50, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * How do I see the new decorations? Do I have to put a code into...where? I would love to see the new decorations. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wiccan3 (talk &bull; contribs) 00:59, 12 December 2008 (UTC).
 * You have two options: a) wait until the admins turn this on for everyone, or b) follow the instructions in the fourth paragraph in this section (that you're reading now) to see the beta version. Please report any weird things you see if you do that. --◄mendel► 01:10, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

What's New
Change the color of What's New,Game Basics,Guilds...,and Gameplay types to icy looking blue with snowy looking edges...that would be so witnersdayish...User:Johnnie992 December 06 17:05
 * I tried that in my sandbox. Didn't look very well.[[Image:Ereanorsign.jpg]]reanor 03:14, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Favicon
A) What is it? (haha I know this is going to turn out to be something really obvious) B) Are we or are we not going to change it? C) If we're going to change it, wouldn't a Winter Gift be more festive than a Birthday Present? Qing Guang 01:19, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * It's the icon that appears next to GuildWiki URLs, in links, favorites, or the address bar of your browser. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 01:24, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't want to change it because it gets stored in bokmarks, in the search box, and who knows where else, and would be a bother to get rid of. I also wouldn't be able to find the GuildWiki tabs again. ;-P It's a branding issue, too, in a way. --◄mendel► 01:33, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't care if you change it, since my .js overrides it anyway :p [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 02:10, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Adding snowflakes to site
So now that the rest of the decorations are live, what about the snowflakes? Enable for the whole wiki, or just mainspace? &mdash;Dr Ishmael 15:51, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The snowflakes really are too excessive to be spread across any of the important namespaces/articles, I think. If there was a way to easily disable them, that would be one thing, but...Remember that with Wintersday event coming up, we'll be getting (hopefully) a lot of increased traffic by people who want info and want it fast, no time to admire the wiki. I think forcing the snowflakes on them would be unwise. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 16:24, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * /sigh >.> You could've mentioned that before I wasted all that time making the disabling option work.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 16:49, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Can't you convert that to an enabling option? So we can just mark the pages that are to have snow? --◄mendel► 16:54, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm just playing devil's advocate, tbh. I'd be happy to put snowflakes on select articles but that's not feasible (?). Alternatively, disabling them for anons (who can't disable with .css/.js/whatever) could be a fair compromise, maybe.
 * Also - it's hardly a waste of time, since you learned in the process. Learning is never a waste of time. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 16:56, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You're basing all this on the given that we'll get a lot of non-regulars for the wintersday events, AND that those guys won't take a minute to look at the decors cuz they don't care. It's kind of a big leap in assumptions to create that much fuzz.[[Image:Ereanorsignxmas.png]] 17:00, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

What about just putting them on User: namespace pages?  &not; Wizårdbõÿ777  ( talk ) 17:19, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Personally, I'd argue that the backgrounds are more "excessive" than the snowflakes. The flakes are small and mostly transparent, meaning they won't obscure much at all; granted, the movement can be a little distracting, but the movement also means that they won't obscure anything permanently.  The backgrounds, on the other hand, cover the entire page, and they are somewhat obfuscatory: the page background obscures the div#p-personal links at the top right (the blue links blend right into the blue bg), while the page background can make it hard to see gray or light-colored text, such as the light-blue external links (edit: heck, I'm having trouble reading normal black text in the lower-right corner, where the trees are on the bg).  Also, the snowflakes are much less distracting than mendel's original idea of rolling a giant snowball across the page.  I can make the flakes move slower, or I can decrease the number, if either of those options would make them less excessive.
 * @mendel: Maybe I'm being pessimistic here, but I would expect most people to be too lazy to enable this themselves. I'd predict x<=5 people using it in that case.
 * @Entropy: Yes, we could define a list of pages to use it on - that's how it works right now, anyway.
 * @Wizardboy: I can easily set it to run on any specific namespace(s).
 * I feel that the snowflakes should be used to the same extent as the backgrounds are. Individual users can disable it (we can put instructions on this project page and add a link to the sitenotice), and it's just another incentive for anons to register.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 18:01, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I would enable them for everything except the Mainspace and mainspace Talk pages, in that case. And maybe also exclude Image: since that is probably a bad idea if you are actually looking at something... [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 18:10, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Disabling on Image: is a good idea, and I'd keep it disabled for everything except the plain 'view' action (edit, history, etc.). As for mainspace, I'd like to enable it everywhere for a little while and see what people think after actually seeing it in action.  At the very least, it should be enabled for all Wintersday pages.
 * I added instructions for disabling the snow to this page, and left a blank section for mendel to provide instructions for disabling the backgrounds. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 18:57, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Loving the snowflakes + background. They seem to slow my browser down though. --[[Image:Progger.png]] - talk 19:11, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * That's unfortunate. It's probably at least partly due to Wikia's slow image servers, but it's probably also due to the browser running a bit of javascript every 0.01 second to move the snowflakes.  I added the ability for users to configure the number of flakes (can only decrease, though), which will help some.  I'll add it to the disabling instructions.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 19:39, 17 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Well that explains why I cannot see 9001 flakes. :C I'm not sure why being on Internet Fail and less-than-optimal internet lets me browse with no problems... [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 19:41, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * These still never stop falling. Image:Snow 1.jpg, Image:Snow 2.jpg. --  Shadowcrest  19:58, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * @Entropy: Yeah, I did that specifically so that users couldn't self-destruct their own browsers. ;)
 * @SC: I wish I knew what was causing that, but I've never seen it happen. What browser/version are you using?  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 20:08, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * On IE7, they fall forever. On Firefox, all the snowflakes appear in one spot near the left side of the screen and don't move. :< --  Shadowcrest  20:11, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * What you're seeing in FF happens to me if I refresh the page (the JS doesn't get properly re-parsed for some reason), but if I come to the page through a link, it works - clicking on the "discussion" tab when you're already here should work, too. And I think the infinite-fall might be due to some bug in Monaco.  Do you see that happen on Main Page/editcopy (it should fall to the bottom of the first screen only, not the full page)?  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 20:21, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

(Reset indent) The background trees make the browser scroll more slowly and unevenly, but if you don't scroll, it shouldn't take up any resources.

With my "enabling" comment I meant that editors and users could place code on pages that would then have snow falling for everyone, so that every user could decided for themselves whether they want to have snow falling on their userpage(s). Maybe we could just have a page with a page list that the .js reads raw, instead of it being hardcoded? (I am in posting in ignorance of technical feasibility, so if it's too much work, just disregard.) --◄mendel► 22:25, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Weird white thing
There's a weird looking white think all over my background? What...is it supposed to be ice or snow? 21:43, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * We should go with something whiter for the background, a lot like the normal one but with a new design, snowy mountains or something (since pines are already taken, I loved how that turned btw). The current image is just too much color.[[Image:Ereanorsignxmas.png]] 23:40, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Ereanor, I have no idea hwo your screen looks now, or what is unsatisfactory about it. If it looks much different than Image:Winter-Sida.jpg, please post a screenshot. I made the pines whiter than they were, and I can read over them fine, but they can probably be made even more white. Or do you object to the blue-white snow on the sidebar and the page header and footer? --◄mendel► 00:03, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You suspect right. It's the blue that bothers me.[[Image:Ereanorsignxmas.png]] 00:10, 18 December 2008 (UTC)