Talk:Cembrien

Where does it say he created the Storm Riders?


 * The Prima Strategy Guide, if I recall correctly. 16:07, 20 April 2006 (CDT)


 * See The Ranger's Path. --adeyke 16:58, 20 April 2006 (CDT)


 * Is "unleashing" synonmyous with "creating"? Maybe his grandma capturend a bunch from Ascalon, gave them to him on a leash as a birthday present, and he just... unleashed them in the desert after some magical modifications of his own ("this land" is ambiguous). -PanSola 17:46, 20 April 2006 (CDT)


 * Is this a serious argument to which one needs to respond, or are you just having fun? --Karlos 20:52, 20 April 2006 (CDT)


 * I'm serious about "Ages ago Mr. X unleashed blah upon this land", when spoken by some guy in the Crystal Desert, does not necessarily mean "Mr. X created the first blah found in Ascalon", because "this land" could've easily meant the Crystal Desert instead of the Tyrian continent or world. The part about grandma and birthday is not serious.


 * I would say that ages ago Europeans (unintentionally) unleashed small pox (or whatever disease that wiped out huge native American population back in the days) upon "this land" (I'm typing from an apartment in North America). I do not consider the Eurpoeans to have created/invented small pox. -PanSola 21:38, 20 April 2006 (CDT)


 * Ha ha.. Now it's you who is not reading the text closely. :) Read the guy's words closely: Storm Riders, not Storm Kin. So, the whole "this land" argument is moot.
 * If you are disagreeing with the "restating" of "unleashed" as "created" or "made," your argument is a man of straw argument. Very potent within its own world of straw, very weak within the context of this discussion. True, Europeans unleashed small pox upon the native americans and that this form of unleashing is not creating, but that is your usage in your sentence in your own context. Back to the game reference, when wizards "unleash" creatures upon the world in any typical fantasy setting, that can usually be expressed as them "creating" those monsters. Context here is the key word. You can't take "unleash" and "create" out of context. i.e. The Forgotten unleashing the Enchanted and creating them is synonymous in this case. It would not be synonymous in the case of the "Titans" where they were "locked away" somewhere and the Lich Lord unleashed them. We have no reference of the Storm Riders being "locked" away behind the Door of Somali :). --Karlos 21:57, 20 April 2006 (CDT)


 * I don't think it's a far stretch to consider the possibility that Storm Kins were Storm Riders mutated by Cembrien, or if Telius is just loosely calling the Storm Kins as Storm Riders. Otherwise Yxthoshth is just a lone lost high level Storm Rider among a bunch of Storm Kin who were NOT created by Cembrien?  You are assuming "this land" means "the world", and infer from that assumption that I disregarded the context.  I plead ambiguity of the context "this land" as well as "Storm Kin/Rider".  My argument is only weak if you assume "this land" means "the world (of Tyria)" instead of "the Crystal Desert", when I do not see anything that favors the former "the world" intepretation, while both Cembrien's ghost and one of his first creation (Yxthoshth) are found in the desert (which doesn't prove the "desert" interpretation, but does favor it). -PanSola 22:08, 20 April 2006 (CDT)


 * I don't understand you now. The Crystal Desert is uninhabited... Has refused all attempts of human habitation ever since it came from under water. I do not think Cembrien was a great mage in the Desert. Cembrien unleashed the Storm Riders on the land of Tyria. Assuming Telius is saying Storm Riders to refer to Storm Kin is (in my opinion) a weak assumption compared to assuming that "this land" refers to all of Tyria, not just the desert. --Karlos 03:08, 21 April 2006 (CDT)
 * The Crystal Desert has refulsed all attempts of *long-term* *human* habitation. Many groups of human come and perish.  I do not see it as unlikely (pardon the double negative) if Cembrien came to the Crystal Desert, unleashed unnatural creatures upon the desert, and then perished; OR if Cembrien came to the Crystal Desert, perished, and then his ghost unleashed the unnatural creatures upon the desert.  I hope that makes me more understandable.  I would boldly claim at least 90% (personally I believe 100%) of the ghosts we see in the Crystal Desert are people who have attempted to live there and perished within 3 generations (most or all probably didn't last a full generation is my actual guess), and Cembrien could easily have been among them. -PanSola 04:24, 21 April 2006 (CDT)


 * We are at the proverbial impasse, what do you propose we do about that? --Karlos 06:34, 21 April 2006 (CDT)
 * Bite to the death? The greatest common denominator seems to be that the dude created Yxthoshth (which I think you consider it to be a Storm Rider while I consider it to be a Storm Kin that got loosely called by the quest giver as Storm Rider).  There's always the option of just state the exact wording used by the game, and add notes on controversy over the interpretation of the games wording. -PanSola 07:12, 21 April 2006 (CDT)
 * Oh, I also advocate for rechecking the quest dialogue. There could've been a typo and it could've said "Storm Kin" all along, or been modified since. -PanSola 07:16, 21 April 2006 (CDT)


 * The wording does say what the quest says, he created the first storm riders. Your qualm about "created" vs "unleashed" is one that I do not even find reasonable. The quest does say that. But I will not budge on this until you provide proof that there is any reason to question the wording in the article other than your "suspicions of other possible meanings and typos by ANet." Not because I care what the article actually says, but because this is about the 5th time we run into these very long debate-type threads over minute issues you have with possible wordings of possible sentences in possible places. I find it counterproductive and have decided to stop bowing to it.
 * Ball is in your court, provide proof that he did NOT create the Storm Riders and that they were there and he simply "unleashed" them from where ever "there" is, or put it up for a vote or whatever. --Karlos 07:28, 21 April 2006 (CDT)
 * Bleh, you are tossing this thing right back at "the proverbial impasse" o_O" So how about we just use exact wording from the game, and NOT worry about interpretations, keeping them on the talk page only?
 * I really find it oddly out of place to have Yxthoshth being the only Storm Rider in the entire Crystal Desert, and find it too much of a coincedence that Cembrien's ghost also ended up in the desert. If the quest giver has said "unleashed blah blah blah upon Tyria", then I would have probably agreed that the qualm about "created" vs "unleashed" being unreasonable.  However, considering the context of Yxthoshth being in salt flats, a type of Rider mob named Storm Kin being in salt flats, AND Cembrien's ghost also being in the desert, the context strongly (at least in my opinion the magnitude is strong, YMMV, which probably takes us right back to the proverbial impasse) favors the interpretation that "this land" meant the local desert, which in turn makes the qualm of "create" vs "unleash" not unreasonable.  This is not a proof, but neither does the opposing argument have a proof.  To unconditionally consider "this land" to mean "the world" is IMHO disregarding the context. -PanSola 08:09, 21 April 2006 (CDT)
 * We are at the impasse. Making longer posts stating the same arguments over and over does not help us get over the impasse. Do you want to put this to a vote? See how many people have a problem with the existing wording? You are in full control of how far you wish this preposterous debate to go. I am in this for the ride, just want to see how far we will go here. --Karlos 09:16, 21 April 2006 (CDT)
 * The idea of editing the article actually didn't occure to me until the first time you mentioned we are at the impasse and asked what I think we should do about that. I'm not the original person who asked the question way at the top, nor do I specifically care that much about the content of this article either.  I'm just riding on the talk page because someone felt the need to respond to an argument d-:  But I dunno, maybe tomorrow I will feel like editing the actual article.  I don't think this issue is vote-worthy though, so I won't initiate one. -PanSola 09:28, 21 April 2006 (CDT)


 * BTW, regarding the Prima Guide, I just checked (the ebook version), and Cembrien isn't mentioned at all in the entire guide. The only reference to "The Ranger's Path" quest is on page 199 where it's shown to give 1000 xp.  No info on where to get it, who to get it from etc. -PanSola 04:54, 21 April 2006 (CDT)

Just throwing this out there, but there was some speculation on gwonline that the Crystal Desert and the Catacombs in Ascalon were linked somehow. This was based on observing the architecture and noticing peculiar similarties that appear to indicate a common builder. This might indicate how Cembrien managed to end up in the desert. 08:18, 21 April 2006 (CDT)

What about the Smoke Walkers in the FoW? Did Cembrien unleash them too? 00:53, 21 April 2006 (CDT)


 * It is my current stance that Cembrien was only responsible for the riders found in the desert. So I believe Cembrien has nothing to do with Smoke Walkers. -PanSola 01:00, 21 April 2006 (CDT)


 * That depends on what ANet thinks they are (which we cannot guess). :( For example, are they the same species just as the Riders and Kin seem to be the same species? Or, are they just using the same graphical model (i.e. abyssals and trolls)? I have a lot less reason to believe they are the same species than the other riders like the Wind riders and Breeze Keepers because those are all mesmers. An obvious theme. --Karlos 03:08, 21 April 2006 (CDT)


 * I think heir collectable drop would indicate that they're more closely related to riders than abyssals are to trolls or bladed aatxes are to minotaurs. --adeyke 03:49, 21 April 2006 (CDT)


 * That's true, and I am the one who classified them as Riders to begin with. I am just saying that I would not make as strong a case for them (being in a different plane of existence) being Riders as I would for the others. Just like the Grasping Darknesses are squid-heads like the Phantoms and Kraken Spawn but they are demons while the Phantoms are, well, phantoms. --Karlos 06:34, 21 April 2006 (CDT)