Talk:Mission overviews (Nightfall)

Start template and stubs for the missions? Lightblade 12:12, 27 October 2006 (CDT)

Changes
"Cemetary of Dunahm" is called "Venta Cemetary", at least on my map. Raxous 12:43, 27 October 2006 (CDT)

Heart or Mind: not exclusive
I could get both of these two quests on a single character at the same time, so there's no decision to do one or the other.


 * Same here. I suggest we change it to something like this:

11. Grand Court of Sebelkeh
 * Attack at the Kodash


 * Heart or Mind: Garden in Danger

'''12a. Jennur's Horde'''
 * Crossing the Desolation

AND

Kourna revisited

 * Heart or Mind: Ronjok in Danger

'''12b. Nundu Bay'''

The two Heart or Mind quests are not mutually exclusive

Thoughts? Finrod 14:30, 7 November 2006 (CST)


 * I added a notes section explaining it. -- Gordon Ecker 23:40, 8 November 2006 (CST)
 * This may be a bug, but if you choose both quests (and so, both missions) you MUST complete both missions to continue on the storyline. I got very confused as to why I had nowhere to go after finishing one, but not the other, then I remembered that I was actually able to accept both quests and that must have forced me to do both.


 * the text in that area was very messed up - the Heart or Mind quests were not grouped together for one, and the text may now be in the wrong area (it was split between Vabbi and Kourna revisited).  I may have placed it in the wrong place, and if so, please update (or I will).  12a and 12b are either/or, but I don't think that's correct, either, so this needs some fixing still. --146.122.71.143 14:55, 28 November 2006 (CST)
 * my bad - it's just confusing due to the indentation.


 * The thing is, that while you can take both Heart or Mind quests and do both missions, you are only required to take one or the other, thus this is a fork in the storyline and should be marked with an EITHER...OR construct in the mission list. Perhaps a more descriptive note at that point would be better, but I'm going to revert the formatting to how it was before. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] (talk|contribs) 15:21, 28 November 2006 (CST)


 * Okay, I compared this page to the Factions missions overview and realized one thing that was wrong: the region names should be third-level headings, not second-level. Thus there is less of an obvious break where the "Kourna Revisited" heading splits the third either/or fork.  (Personally, that never confused me in any case, so I see no reason to remove it.)
 * I also removed the Challenge missions to their own (second-level) section, like on the Factions page. Likely, we'll have to rename this to "Challenge and Elite Missions" soon after they open the new elite mission.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] (talk|contribs) 15:52, 28 November 2006 (CST)

Bonus?
Iv heard people wanting to do the "bonus" for nightfall missions and it even mensions bunus on the wiki but i havent seen a single "bonus" in-game. and the wiki lists rewards on a masters scale. Why is the masters rewaerd in nightfalll being called a bonus? Is it because people think masters is about a time scale? because thats wrong. Gala hatchery and the kurzick mission to protect the forever trees are not time based. Could someone explain this to me please?--Coloneh RIP 22:44, 12 November 2006 (CST)
 * The optional objectives in Nightfall are labelled 'bonus' in the mission goal popups and the quest log. -- Gordon Ecker 23:48, 12 November 2006 (CST)
 * Oooooo. thanks, but i still think we should point out that bonuses arent the tyrin bonuses people are used to, they run on the 3 step system.--Coloneh RIP[[Image:Coloneh.png]]  18:34, 13 November 2006 (CST)
 * The Nightfall "bonus" is similar to Prophecies in that the task is optional and is not immediately available when the mission begins. But Nightfall allows partial credit for partial completion of the bonus goal, leading to the expert and master reward levels introduced in Factions. Mujaki 00:26, 29 November 2006 (CST)

Footnote 1
I've been unable to get into Mission 7a. I was in a group where everyone but me had completed the quests required to get Master of Whispers joining the group. Do I need to complete the required quests and/or mission in the other branch to be allowed to try the alternative? The footnote isn't clear regarding that. Enjios Craven 13:23, 6 December 2006 (CST)


 * You should be able to enter the Rilohn Refuge (Location) without having to do anything special. Once there, you only need to be in a party with someone who has Master of Whispers unlocked, and they must bring Master of Whispers in the party.  Other than that... I don't think you can be the party leader - the leader probably has to have MoW unlocked.  (I soloed my way to Protector of Elona, so I don't know any of this from experience.)  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] (talk|contribs) 20:51, 6 December 2006 (CST)


 * Well, I tried again and this time I've got a screenshot to prove it [[Media:nightfall_mission7a_glitch.JPG]]. Only 3 characters, 2 of them with MoW (group leader's shown in the picture) and only poor me without him in my hero list. Alas, Dehjah doesn't let me into. Enjios Craven 16:14, 7 December 2006 (CST)


 * Only the party leader needs to speak with the mission-person to take the entire party in. In this screenshot, my fiancee (Khensu Sobek Ra) does not have MoW unlocked, but I do.  I speak with Dejah, and we enter the mission.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] (talk|contribs) 16:50, 7 December 2006 (CST)


 * Maybe I wasn't clear before (my fault). One group w/ 3 characters. Group leader has MoW unlocked and chosen. Character 2 has MoW unlocked and not chosen. Character 3 (me) has not MoW unlocked. The group leader talks to Dehjaj, and she (Takhesis Hell) takes the screenshot above stating that the group cannot enter the mission because of me. I tried it yesterday and today, and we have another guild member with the same problem. I'm available to make the test with whoever wants to try. I haven't chosen any branch yet, even I haven't completed mission 6 but nowhere in Guildwiki I've read those as prerrequisites. Enjios Craven 17:36, 7 December 2006 (CST)


 * Oh, well then; that explains everything. Yes, you must complete one branch before you can do the mission on the other branch.  You're right - that's not mentioned in the article, and glancing over the history, I don't think it ever was (that is, it wasn't accidentally edited out by anyone).  I'll add that now.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] (talk|contribs) 18:40, 7 December 2006 (CST)
 * Clarified the footnote. You don't have to do the other mission, just have the other hero.  I tested it this morning.  My wife has Margrid the Sly, while I selected Master of Whispers.  With neither of us having done either mission, I am able to entre the Pogahn Passage mission with her (which we resigned from to test the other side), and she is likewise able to enter Rilohn Refuge mission. ScionOfErixalimar 12:37, 5 February 2007 (CST)

Map
So I see on the Prophecies and Factions links for the same info that there is a cool map with arrows showing the route(s) that you can take to finish the game. Is there one for Nightfall yet or is someone currently making one? The Factions one really saved me and I look forward to using the NF one (hoping one will be made) to help my characters in a quick and easy format like this.--  Vallen Frostweaver  11:00, 12 January 2007 (CST)
 * I'll take that as a no.--[[Image:VallenIconwhitesmall.JPG]]  Vallen Frostweaver  12:35, 5 February 2007 (CST)
 * I finally got tired of the lack of a map myself, so I went and made one today. Enjoy!  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] (talk|contribs) 00:02, 5 April 2007 (CDT)

NF Required Missions
Has anyone experimented with which missions are required to get through to the different areas in NF (didn't check on the other two that went through it), if you're not worried about the storyline? The Realm of Torment is pretty obvious, but I'm wondering about Vabbi. You can get to Nundu Bay, though you won't get the mission, but I remember at least one other outpost that had the doors closed when I tried. ~ Pae 23:04, 2 March 2007 (CST)
 * I thought there were only a couple "restricted areas" until I started typing them out. There's actually quite a few, but at least it's nothing like Factions.
 * Istan:
 * Blacktide Den and Beknur Harbor will be closed until you complete Jokanur Diggings.
 * To leave Istan and enter Kourna you must complete Consulate Docks.
 * Kourna:
 * Sunspear Sanctuary is only accessible after completing the primary quest Hunted!.
 * To leave Kourna and enter Vabbi you must complete Moddok Crevice.
 * Vabbi:
 * Garden of Seborhin is only accessible if you have Tahlkora in your party.
 * Dasha Vestibule is only accessible after you complete either Greed and Regret or Calling the Order.
 * The Desolation:
 * You must tame the wurms in Gate of Desolation in order to explore this region at all.
 * Bone Palace will be closed until you complete A Deal's a Deal.
 * Ruins of Morah will be closed until you complete Horde of Darkness.
 * Mouth of Torment will be closed until you complete Ruins of Morah.
 * &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] (talk|contribs) 00:26, 5 April 2007 (CDT)

Non-Elonian Characters doing the first 3 Missions
A message comes up once you enter the all of the first three missions of Nightfall (Chahbek Village, Jokanur Diggings and Blacktide Den) with a non-Elonian character;

"You are about to relive the events as they occured in Istan prior to your arrival in Elona."

I am presuming this is because you officially enter the story line after these missions have taken place but should there not be a mention of it somewhere on this wiki? I'm not sure where best to put it though. A note on the this article or make it a note on just the three affected missions? --arual 14:48, 27 May 2007 (CDT)

On the wiki page, it says that non-Elonian characters will not recieve the gold, skill points, or experience from the first three missions in Elona; however, I just completed the first mission on a Tyrian character, and i received 2000xp, 200gp, and 3 skill points for the Master's reward. Does this happen on just the first mission, or is Wiki simply incorrect on the matter?


 * That's right - because there's an in-game gap of 2 years between Prophecies/Factions and Nightfall, foreign chars still get the rewards for the first Nightfall missions. The wiki needs to be corrected. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:05, 18 June 2007 (CDT)

Mission Cinematics
It occurs to me that this is a better place to put my question then where I did originally. Why do the nightfall missions not have the cinematics typed out? Factions missions do. I really appriciated being able to read the dialogue because it allowed me to keep up with the story line even when my groups did not want to watch the missions, so I think we should put the cutscene dialogue into the articles.--Bastthegatekeeper 02:48, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Why? Because we were waiting for you to do it, of course. :P  Seriously, though, it's just because no one so far has felt like doing it.  If you want to start on it, go right ahead.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 06:54, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * lol, fine then, I will. Got one done, only 19 more...--Bastthegatekeeper 22:44, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Good job on the two you've done. Would you mind formatting them in the same manner as the Prophecies missions are?  The wiki-code for tables can be confusing, though, so if you don't want to that's fine.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 06:10, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * aw man, you are so lucky I have no life... --Bastthegatekeeper 20:37, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

formatting
Just formatted this article similarly to the EOTN guide. Will do the same for Factions and Prophecies in the next few days. Man... that took way longer than I thought. ^_^ RoseOfKali 17:50, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Whoa, that looks different. I don't like how the missions are harder to visually pick out from the list than they were before, when you could pick them up by their indentation.  Quizzical 18:12, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The missions are shown in bold and numbered... I don't know how much easier it can be to point them out, just look for a big fat black number - tadaa!  Besides, in most cases, you have to complete the quests leading to that mission anyway.  I do think that this layout makes it a lot easier to understand parallel paths, though, versus the loads of "the paths fork here - EITHER - OR - the paths join back up here" everywhere.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 18:33, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll agree with you on the parallel paths, but that seems to be the only justification for a format that is otherwise much harder to follow. It certainly wouldn't be much of a justification for using the same layout in Prophecies.  Quizzical 20:18, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, currently it just looks like a streamline of text, which is honestly hard for me to follow, because I get lost in the lines, it's like reading code, especially if you're trying to scroll through it looking for something specific. I was going to organize Prophecies like the Nightfall one, but make everything left-align instead of centered, and indent the quests a little further to make the missions stand out (like you wanted), especially since the quests here are not required to access the missions.  I would also put the desert missions in parallel (duh) and make the region sections, like "Northern Shiverpeaks" or "Maguuma Jungle," in different colors for easier "browsing."  Any suggestions otherwise?  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 22:44, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Before your changes, the thing that made the missions stand out was the indenting. Now what stands out are whichever quests have the longest name.  Left aligned with such indenting is much easier to read--and it doesn't necessarily have to be at the far left edge of the page.  Before your changes, the GWEN mission page was by far the most confusing, so that's not the format to copy.  I ended up having to figure out some quest and mission orders just by in-game trial and error, which defeats the point of having a wiki.  I had no such difficulties reading the mission overview pages for any campaign.  Quizzical 06:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm tempted to say that you would be in a minority... The new layout is essentially a flow-chart, which has been the preferred method of presentation for sequenced and paralleled events for a looong time...  I really can't see where your confusion is coming from.  Bold and numbered seems to stand out quite a bit to me.  Indenting looks great on paragraphs of text, but differently indented single lines of plain just make a Moire pattern more than anything else. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 06:25, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Although this doesn't help the conversation, personally I find both formats equally confusing. However, the new one makes the page take longer to load, so...meh. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 06:45, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


 * As already mentioned this format makes it much harder to pick out the missions, yes they're in bold and numbered but they're still harder to pick out. Not all people wanting to look up the missions will want to look up the various quests you have to do inbetween (ie. players seeking to complete Protector/Guardian titles and people helping guildies etc). I think that the original concept of this page has been bastardised over time and it no longer serves it's purpose as a Mission Overview page for Elona, after all please remember the quests detailed in the article are storyline quests, not missions. I'm not saying to get rid of those quests altogether but in my opinion at least they were only a minor feature of this page and now recieve much more, undeserved, focus. -arual 13:29, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd say the problem is in the font size and the background colour. If you want it to stand out, you either make it capitals (not good looking) or increase the font size. The aqua background needs to go since practically the entire page is covered in it. Instead, use the aqua background for the area names rather than the quest and missions. As it currently stands, the picture at the bottom is more straightforward for me than the actual text. --Kale Ironfist 13:52, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Definitely get rid of the bluish background, there's no point to having it cover most of the page. Give a gray background to the missions to make them stand out.  Yeah, I think that looks a lot better.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:01, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, so you wanted a page with just pure missions? That can be done easily, just make a list of the mission links with NOTHING else, and done. The thing is, it would be extremely helpful for first-time campaign travel, if you just want to beat it without too many side quests, to know what you gotta do to move on. I wish I knew about this page when I was playing through it for the first time. Prophecies is easy because you don't need to do the quest to enter the missions, not so much in NF. I can take this to another page, and just make this a list of missions, if that's what you want, and just link to the full list for more detailed path. Though, honestly, if I'm helping someone with a mission, or just doing one randomly for guardian or something, I type in the name of the mission in Search, I don't look for some reference page with a link to it. O_o RoseOfKali  14:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No-one even suggested a page with pure missions, just one on which the missions stood out alot more and recieved more focus than the quests. I believe that the current edit (by Dr Ishmaels?) satisfies that quite easliy. Although having said that it would be good if the quests were collapsible, like say the Table of Contents, ie. press a button and only the missions are left bunched up... perhaps that will have to wait for another day though :) -arual 15:38, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * That would be way too much work, and unnecessarily complicate the page, I think. If you want missions only, go to Category:Nightfall missions; if you want them in order, go to any mission article and scroll to the  at the bottom.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Whatever you guys want. I think it looks odd now, with stripes of color/white all over, but if that's what you want, have it.  Like Ishmael pointed out, you do have the nav box if you want the missions alone.  Still don't see the whole issue with missions "standing out more" than they already did, a half blind child could find them in 10 seconds.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 16:24, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thats a good point, I'll just use the NavBox's directly from now on - I didn't think of that earlier... I have just the place to link them from too :) -arual 16:35, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll start saying it short, it's not personal, I really hated this, the article is too stretched, EotN has 3 parallel arcs, short Storyline and only 16 quests all of them being a Mission or a Summary Quest, so that format works great. EotN overview ocuppies 1 page (used to be even less), Factions/Nightfall have 6 pages now, with long streaks of quests on vertical listing order that are not helpful for people who need guidance on a specific mission, you didn't need to scroll down pages to go through the starter island primary quest chain before. The article is supposed to be a Mission overview, it SHOULD include the storyline quests, as they connect the missions, but we DON'T need them use up far more space then the missions.
 * Your idea was nice, you did a good work, but it would belong to a Storyline overview rather then Mission overview, if possible to create such article to keep this work, otherwise a userpage. Personally I used this page for me or to help my friends when I need to review some specific Mission Bonus or tips. Also being a campaign I don't think you need to leave the quests for starting it just to ocupy more space from the start, until it actually joins the storyline, Nightfall's overview used to have a note saying where the foreign characters would join the story for instance. You said about a child finding it in 10 seconds, I used to find the missions in 2-3 seconds if the page was already loaded, it doesn't take too longer now but is really annoying to do so, specially scrolling a full page of starter quests everytime. I don't have the habit of using the NavBox for normal articles, only long talk pages. It was better to check this page to see how many missions you had to complete to get from one mission to another, even if most people know them, the article is also meant for people playing it for the first time, primary quests aren't really difficult, it goes step by step and you can resume it from where you stop in most cases, you have access to res shrines most of the time, they don't have bonus objetives, that are only revealed while you are already taking action.
 * For people starting PvE, these pages should be the first thing they'll look for, having so many quests they don't even remember doing occupying so much space and having a non-existance participation of foreign characters in the start, where they only have access to one campaign, will only confuse them. This page should be a little more newbie friendly, like the way the Prophecies mission overview is now (someone could add a note saying where Canthan and Elonian characters join the Storyline, not everyone started playing GW on Prophecies). EDIT: I forgot mentioning this: the color is also confusing for a first timer, the colors are way too "flashy", and the article itself is using way too much colored background. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.82.41.163 (contribs).


 * I actually like the flowchart format, and I feel its use is at least somewhat justified for Nightfall because of the multiple branching storylines. I think the colors, as they are now, are fine too - they match the arrows on the map so you can tell where you'll be going on each branch.  We probably don't need the "foreign" bits in the flowchart, though, and maybe the primary quests don't need to be spaced out at one per line.  That would condense/unify the flowchart a little bit.  I'll go do that.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 02:07, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

This is getting somewhere, though it's still a bit... "stripy." I think at this point it's almost better to put it back into "list" format, with the exclusion of the forks, which should stay as a parallel table. Maybe remove the "flashy" pink/green/etc color boxes and just make them into borders around those sections, so that they're still color-coded to the map, but don't jump out as much. Left-aligning everything I think will look better, and this way, indentation can be used to outline the mission entries, instead of those gray prison-stripes. I'll work on this either today or tomorrow. Sorry for being so aggressive at the start, I just felt like the old purely linear layout was confusing at the forks, and I then got bitch-slapped in the face for trying to do something with it, after the amount of time it took. People preferred to whine, even if they had nothing else to contribute. RoseOfKali 04:06, 21 May 2008 (UTC)