User talk:Warrior Nation/Rt/N Explosive Creation

/Archive1

Revision
Hey I can see a lot of effort has been put into this build. I just have two qualms with it as of right now (6/21):
 * Harbinger's Armor is not a good choice if Blood of the Master is being used. More health means more sacrifice. I'd suggest going with Halcyon's (+energy), Mystic's (while casting) or Oracle's (while holding item, which can be met as seen below.)
 * Flesh Golem seems counter to the idea of creating a lot of minions and slaying them. Considering all the qualms about energy management while creating an army with two enchants on, healing and applying Death Novas, I agree with others about using Attuned Songkai as the elite. It's a logical choice, especially considering the maxed out Spawning Power. The only faults I see are the 15/60 seconds you won't have the attunement, and the fact that you need to reserve 10 energy to cast it plus whatever energy will be lost 'cos you can't hold your weapon. Spirit Channeling's health degen is too risky despite the bonus at the end, and it won't save as much energy. --Arch Cuisinart 18:10, 21 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Animate Flesh Golem is your safety net. Not only is he a fire-and-forget spell, he functions as a mini-Warrior hench. As such, he will not only soak up damage, but also kill enemies for you. In my build, I replaced Blood of the Master with Flesh Golem, because when he eventually dies, he leaves behind an exploitable corpse, guaranteeing me at least two minions in the next battle, at no health penalty. The time you have to stop and cast BotM, the more degen the minions accumulate.
 * While I agree with you about Halcyon Armor, I have to disagree with Attuned Was Songkai. At max Spawning, you are gaining an energy per Animate Bone Minions, not to mention natural Energy Regen. Where are you going to spend all that Energy you save with Attuned? Death Nova? Taste of Death? 5 Energy, negligable. Rotting Flesh? You don't need to cast it but once per group, as it's 'contagious' in PvE, and only towards enemies. Your Animates ARE your Energy and Health management. Enchantment strippers? Target them first. The other armors are simply too limited in scope to justify the investment. However, Energy is always useful. --BarGamer 20:32, 21 June 2006 (CDT)

Some proposed additions to the Variations section, just wanted to hear you guys' opinion before I do:


 * Use Taste of Death to focus on killing off specific minions, specifically the Flesh Golem to create a new one, or to rescue yourself from death.
 * If a resurrection skill is necessary, leave out either Blood of the Master or Rotting Flesh. If you increase Restoration, take Flesh of My Flesh.

Move "# Reduce Spawning Power, increase Restoration, and add spirits such as Recuperation to help your teammates and minions last longer."

down a line or two, to be next to the previously mentioned, so that it flows better. Honestly, with the point spread, you can increase Restoration to 3 as is. Not sure whether that was deliberately left out, or what. Oh wait, I left that out of MY thing up there. Oops... Ah well, at least I mentioned it in my guide. --BarGamer 23:06, 21 June 2006 (CDT)

Some IP address-ed nut put in a stupid 'update' to the Variations section, and in deleting his comment, I got to thinking of my own addition. Since nobody tried to discourage me from my above proposals, I figure I'll kill two birds with one stone. 'Cheers!' as the British say.--BarGamer 23:20, 7 July 2006 (CDT)

Missing Spirits
I have read through most of this with interest as I have been running an Rt/N MM for some time now (its my favorite).

WHERE ARE THE SPIRITS?? The essence of the build is 1.Boon of Creation 2.Explosive Growth 3.Animate Bone Minions and it seems 4. Death Nova. That leaves 4 skills!

Options: Stronger Minions (Animate Flesh Golem, and maybe others), Spiking (Signet of Creation), Spirits (many options - read below),

You also gain the same benefits from creating Spirits as from Minions, so why don't you? It will also make you more useful before there are bodies. And if you are personaly under attack you still gain health, Energy, and damage the attacker. There are many spirits to try, damage, healing, interupt, reserect, etc. You can even add skills like Doom or Ghostly Haste.

Special Note: Anguished Was Lingwah creates a Spirit giving the same creation benefits when you drop it.

I personaly use the healing option: Recuperation and Life

Reserect Options: Lively was Naomei Restoration (this is a spirit)

Also, dont forget Weapon Spells, they can add advantages to you or your team.

As for Energy, I rearly find it an issue because creating Bone Minions creates energy. I don't bother brining any specific healing for minions, I'm usually at full 8 at the end of a battle and on mostly full health. I cast Bone Mionion at the rate of about 1-1.5 times the skill recharge, alternating it with other skills.


 * The primary reason that spirits were cut out early in shaping this build is to focus on the two attributes needed for a ritualist minion master to do well - Death Magic and Spawning Power. My original build had Destruction and Rupture Soul in there to do something before the bodies began to appear, but once the minioning begins, I found that most of my time and energy went towards creating and maintaining minions. Most minion masters run into this, so to optimize the efficiency of the skills used most of the time, the focus was placed on the minions. This does not exclude someone's preference to include spirits, it's simply a way to keep focused on the role this particular build was set up for. So if your play style includes adding a spirit or two, by all means use them. The large amounts of energy generated from successful casts of bone minions with boon up can easily support energy requirements for almost any secondary role especially if it has to do with spirits (due to the already high spawning power). --Thervold 16:59, 8 June 2006 (CDT)


 * The real reason to focus on the minions is that Boon and Explosive Growth are both triggered twice when Animate Bone Minions is used and once for any other minion-creation spell. This doubles the value of those skills and is at the core of the build.  --DaveK  01:33, 9 June 2006 (GMT)


 * This issue came up just recently in my GWGuru discussion page. Essentially, the investment of Communing to the detriment of Death/Spawning was considered too much of a waste. The questioning person did say that he got some nice results from Pain/Rupture Soul, but only by dropping Death Nova, because he couldn't keep up with the minion-targetting, which I consider even more of a waste. And yes, I agreed with you in my build on the investment of the Animate Flesh Golem, as he has uses outside of combat. I also neglected minion heals, as Flesh Golem removed the urgency to keep them alive between battles, as the Golem left behind a corpse, upon which I could exercise my options. Weapon Spells further deviate from the essential Attributes of Death/Spawning. Life and Recuperation are two un-needed skills. For the Restoration Attribute, which I dropped my last few points in, I took Flesh of my Flesh, so I could rez my henchies or otherwise useless party members when the battle was over. AFTER I Animated from them, of course. >:D
 * In the end, you seek to create a Communing/Death Ritualist, with some few points in Spawing Power. For this purpose, there are other, more effective builds, or you can, through the proper channels, seek to perfect your build, and submit it for testing, as we all had to do. --BarGamer 00:05, 12 June 2006 (CDT)

Jagged Horror
This is going to be amazing once nightfall comes out. you could swap out Animate Flesh Golem for Jagged Bones, leaving you with up to 8 jagged Horrors all the time! Im so excited!--Coloneh 15:19, 24 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm just testing a build using Jagged Bones, Death Nova and Putrid Flesh. A Rt/N with the said skills, plus Boon of Creation and Explosive Growth can deal over 100+ damage plus Poison, Diesese and also Bleeding form the jagged minion's attack. You don't run out of energy(but it's close, so one should watch it) and, most importantly, you don't run out of minions! Works well on practice targets, I need to go through Nightfall to cap the elites to see it in practice. Tupot 13:41, 28 October 2006 (GMT+2)

I'm more interested in Spirit's Gift. With death nova and putrid flesh this build can heal, nuke and spread degen while managing health and energy very well.--219.89.26.159 10:28, 31 October 2006 (GMT +12)
 * Three words. Spirit's Gift rocks. -- Metasynaptic Nov 3, 2006.
 * Check it out --> Thats my RT/N MM and it is quite a bit better than this with the nightfall skills.--Coloneh RIP[[Image:Coloneh.png]]  21:03, 7 November 2006 (CST)

ughhh... i just noticed that rotting flesh is in this build. thats a very bad thing since the elite dosnt look like tainted flesh. thats alot of pressure on your monks if an enemy happens to have plague touch.--Coloneh RIP 00:06, 26 December 2006 (CST)
 * I wonder how that Jagged Horror thing in Usage slipped by us? Made an entirely new section, separated my edit into two parts, and hopefully, nipped the edit war in the bud. And yes, Coloneh, Putrid Flesh is superior to Rotting Flesh, unless you want your minions to die of disease and/or degen instead of Signet of Creation, Putrid Flesh, or even Taste of Death? Heck, with enough Animates, Spirit's Gift stops Plague Touch, Plague Sending, Plague Signet, cures Infuse Condition, Epidemic, Fevered Dreams, and anything else in Condition removal quick reference. Heck, if you got party members, have them capitalize on all the conditions you're spreading around. Virulence, anyone? BarGamer 01:28, 26 December 2006 (CST)
 * What i meant was that anything that causes disease(when no one on your team has tainted flesh) is bad, better to use bitter chill and not kill your team.--Coloneh RIP[[Image:Coloneh.png]] 01:40, 27 December 2006 (CST)
 * Before one of the updates, in PVE, foes couldn't spread player-originated Disease to your henchies. But yes, better off to use Deathly Swarm, Bitter Chill, or some other skill entirely. BarGamer 02:29, 27 December 2006 (CST)

My Own Build
I think you don't need Signet of Creation, Blood of the Master and Rotting Flesh. That's why i play with this build. (I'm sorry I'm french so I can't really explain you the basement of my build but, test it and you will see why I choose to play this build i made). My MM rit its my primary PvE Character and she have 1 prot hero, 1 nuker hero and 1 healer hero. Armor and Weapon: Harbinger's Armor + Superior Spawning Power rune + Superior Vigor rune + Minor Restoration Magic rune. Poisonous sword or axe of Enchanting paired with Bortak's Bone Cesta. Usage: Cast the 3 enchant, when your hero or w/e kill a foe, u cast Animate Bone Minions and after you cast Jagged Bones and Death Nove on the 2 Minions and you do the same forthe other corpse. Use Generous Was Tsungrai if needed. Use flesh of my flesh after a combat if your heros monks are die. -Benoit Flageol- (Talk) 20:12, 27 December 2006 (EST)
 * an almost identical build was just merged into this. its still in my userpage User:Coloneh/Spirit's Gift Minions.--Coloneh RIP[[Image:Coloneh.png]] 02:19, 28 December 2006 (CST
 * Hmmmm no... Your build use Signet of Creation and u said some variation about other skill to kill the minion... my own build its: less the minion die dont kill them (so you have the time to cast death nova and jagged bones on all minions... -Benoit Flageol- (Talk) 03:32, 28 December 2006 (EST)
 * Harbinger's Armor and Generous's health sacrifice cancel each other out. With Prot and healer heroes, you've got too MUCH health. You need the extra energy/enchantment/poison from your Weapon/Cesta, and especially Halcyon's Armor, to keep up with the Boon of Creation energy reduce since a few months ago, and all the Jagged Bones/Death Nova you're casting. If you need Health, I suggest Taste of Death. Sometimes, Death Nova's and Jagged Bones's 36 seconds run out before the minions die. Taste of Death serves two purposes, then. My casting order on an almost-dead minion would be Death Nova, Jagged Bones, Taste of Death. Generous is not the best skill, you only gain 148 health, 1 second cast, and 15 second recharge, and no Weapon/Cesta. Taste of Death is 340 Health, 1/4th second cast, and 0 recharge, Weapon/Cesta use, and you can time minion death. Also, you have Healer hero and Prot Hero. Why Flesh of my Flesh? Do the Heroes die that often? Get Putrid Flesh for disease degen, Spirit's Gift will control it. Other than that, your build is exactly the same as what I would use. BarGamer 04:22, 28 December 2006 (CST)
 * Well, you could switch SoC for GwT, if you really need a third heal. healing for 200 every time a corpse opens up is good enough for me.--Coloneh RIP[[Image:Coloneh.png]] 14:17, 28 December 2006 (CST)
 * Coloneh, where the HELL did you get 200 health per corpse from SOC? You must be talking about the combined triggers of BoC and Spirit's Gift, which Benoit here already has, without needing to cripple himself every 30 seconds because of Signet of Creation. Assuming your build works perfectly, all the enemies are already dead from the initial explosion, so why does he need to worry about 200 health here or there? And furthermore, "Good enough for me" is a poor excuse for letting a build by. This is quoted from the Build talk: Main Page.
 * wooah, calm down.my point was that your alrealy getting healed for 200 quite often, why do you need another self heal? we dont need to get all violent. good enough for me s fine in PvE. 200 from every corpse is also good enought in alliance battles, i dont know where else you would be using a MM.--Coloneh RIP[[Image:Coloneh.png]] 17:11, 31 December 2006 (CST)

[quote]You can coast your way through most of Guild Wars with almost anything stapled to your skill bar. That's by design. This isn't Rogue or whatever, where even optimal play is likely to result in your untimely demise. A good build isn't just one that can get you up to Thunderhead Keep or whatever. It's one that can actually deal with the "challenging" aspects of play. In PvP, the challenge comes from the other players. In PvE, the challenge comes from the designers cranking up the difficulty (which is only the case in some areas) and from artificially creating a challenge for yourself by changing the parameters of the task (the easiest example being farming something with an undermanned group to get better rewards). This is where the truly worthwhile PvE builds come from. We need to, at the least, acknowledge this in the review process: "it works" just plain can't be enough to assure a build prominent placement on the wiki. Even in PvE, a build really has to have some specific thing it's good at. Not just mediocre or kinda good, but amazingly, ass-kickingly, holy-shit-why-didn't-I-think-of-this good. Otherwise, we're going to be making pages for almost any combination of skills you can think of. — 130.58 (talk) 20:18, 20 December 2006 (CST)[/quote]


 * Flesh of my Flesh is there to rez the hero monk if they die (I know they dont die a lot) but it's used for a PvE "Player" team too. I changed the skill bar for Taste of Death. You are right, it's really better. But for Flesh of my flesh, I don't want to switch it for Putrid Flesh... I looking for a Energy gained Skill instead of Flesh of my Flesh. What skill do you think it can work good ? -Benoit Flageol- (Talk) 04:54, 29 December 2006 (EST)
 * Unfortunately, Ritualists and Necromancers have few choices if they want more energy. Halcyon's Armor lowers your max health, Spirit Channeling gives you health degen, Attuned Was Songkai takes away Weapon/offhand, and Necro cannot use Blood Ritual or Blood is Power on yourself. In Prophesies and Factions campaign, Eve was a very good henchmen because she used Blood Ritual on players. Maybe change one of the monks for another henchmen, with skills from Energy_recovery_quick_reference? Sorry I cannot help more. :( BarGamer 21:26, 29 December 2006 (CST)
 * For the most part this build rarely has an issue with energy. The energy gain from Boon balances out the cost of animating minions, and the long cast time on Death Nova means you can't really spam it enough to run yourself dry.  The only time energy should be a concern is after you cast all the enchants and try to summon your first minions.  It's all downhill after that.  -DaveK 17:00, 16 January 2007 (GMT)
 * Ever had your Enchants stripped, or Boon was interrupted? Trust me, you'd be begging for Energy then. And Animating, Nova-ing, and casting Deathly Swarm will run you dry, after a long battle. Also in long battles, sometimes your enchants simply run out, in which case a good Reclaim Essence will save your life. BarGamer 00:21, 17 January 2007 (CST)

Hmm, maybe Sunspear Rebirth Signet instead of Flesh of My flesh ? -Benoit Flageol- (Talk) 17:34, 30 December 2006 (EST)

Votes?
where are the votes for this build? BMW 00:48, 28 December 2006 (CST)
 * It's reasonable to say that this build was vetted through actual discussion prior to the voting process that is now commonly used. Check the archive or history for any details that might interests you. There wasn't much in the way of opposition, and it was a fairly complete build that seemed to work. --Zampani 02:43, 28 December 2006 (CST)

Build
I have to disagree with that build. It is not good at all. First off all, Ritualist is very weak. And that build only offers one damage spell, the rest are for health and energy purposes. By the time you've killed one enemy and creating minions, another one comes along and kills you. This build might work better in teams but I can't recommend this for solo Rits. (84.230.244.212 10:35, 6 January 2007 (CST))
 * A solo Rit is a dead Rit. From the very beginning, a Rit is a support character, and that stays true here. Don't expect to be farming for greens with this build, it's just not possible. Your damage spells are indirect: Death Nova and Explosive Growth. If you're dying too much you are either: In melee, not using Taste of Death, or you left your monk(s) behind. The last time a Minion Master of any kind was soloing anywhere, it was before the minion cap. If you don't like this build or just don't get it, don't make one. BarGamer 19:13, 6 January 2007 (CST)
 * Why would someone expect this build to solo? VegJed 20:44, 16 January 2007 (CST)

Merge?
Discussion on 's talk page -- Jill Bioskop X 06:15, 1 February 2007 (CST)
 * Auron has spoken. Reclaim Essence is to be merged with Explosive Creation, not the other way around. Confusing, I know. (*Is sad, though.*) BarGamer 21:25, 1 February 2007 (CST)
 * I was just thinking that people who are only watching this build and not the Reclaim Essence build should also be notified about a merge, since they probably have a good opinion about the build you want to merge with. Chances are they are watching both builds, but you don't know that for sure. -- Jill Bioskop X 03:26, 2 February 2007 (CST)
 * I understand, but having merge tags up on both pages has the possibility, however slim, of having some self-righteous nut (or nuts) deleting BOTH pages, after a series of confusing edits. Creating a new Talk section should be sufficient for notifying the people who care. If there's one productive thing Coloneh and my disagreements did, it was creating enough of a fuss over on the Reclaim Essence page that most people do have both pages watched.
 * While we're on the subject of merging, what do you think of my edits so far? I pretty much C&Ped the skill bar from the Reclaim page, and added another one for Jagged Bones, but it seems kind of... wasteful. I can't let go of the feeling that Reclaim needs a bit more skill tweaking. Though it could be my sleep deprivation talking. XD BarGamer 10:28, 2 February 2007 (CST)

Nerf of Jagged Bones
Is it worth now to use it? or the better way is Reclaim Essence ? --Benoit flageol 20:23, 5 February 2007 (CST)
 * It's still worth it, but some people might want to toss on a Half Skill Recharge mod somewhere. Fortunately, this mod is plentiful; Just about all the Weapons NPCs are clones of each other. Giving your Necro-Hero Jagged Bones is more important than ever. Personally, I think they over-reacted, and 10-second-recharge would have been fine. The Necro-main probably already has one or two HSR mods on, thus the nerf, but they hurt us pretty bad, since usually we discard this mod. BarGamer 10:15, 6 February 2007 (CST)

Necromancer hero
The article currently says: "A Necromancer Hero [...] can alleviate some of the micro-management necessary to use this build well." That makes no sense at all. First of all, a Necromancer hero can't use a Rt/N build, only a N/Rt build. But all the Rt skills used in this build are close to useless for a secondary profession Rt, because they belong to Spawning Power, which is the primary Rt attribute, and can't be utilized by secondary Rts. Only Razah could use the build well. Olias and MoM are formidable minion masters (better than most humans!), but only as N/Mo, or N/none, not as N/Rt. Therefore, I'm removing the sentence. -- 10:29, 8 March 2007 (CST)
 * The key prepositional phrase here is "with Jagged Bones and Death Nova". 90% of the complaints I heard about the build is targeting those darn nigh-invisible minions, so that the build can do that yummy Nova damage. And another person casting Jagged Bones is nothing to sneeze at, whether or not I feel like giving him an Animate. A Necro Hero (*cough*enchant bi-otch*cough*) helps with that, and with the option of a Sup Death Magic Rune besides, making the Novas and Jagged Horrors that much more powerful. Sorry for the confusion. Are you willing to reconsider your edit, or replacing it with something that is more easily understood? (And I've been wondering how Razah and I would do in Vizunah Square, just for kicks...) BarGamer 12:51, 8 March 2007 (CST)

Reclaim Essence build
I use the Reclaim Essence build on my rit. I think a good optional is Dark bond like suggested, because you really need the protection. Ive tried without dark bond and died really fast when attacked by (for example) a margonite reaper. With 16 in spawning power your minions can also take some more dmg transferred from dark bond. So personaly ill recommend Dark bond in the reclaim essence or so called NF variant build now. And since Jagged Bones got nerfed i would say Reclaim essence is way better, reasons: Share spawning attribute, you NEED the energy management, and easier to capture. Reclaim essence is a life saver, because putrid flesh really drains you, + death nova and animate. Also low recharge on it = SPAM :D ! Btw (huh ever made the build) Really great build you made, takes a little practice to master it, but that doesnt make it bad at all. Best rit build ever ! ^^
 * If you need some tips on mastering the Minion Bomber, check out my guide on Guru. Link to it from my User Profile. BarGamer 16:02, 17 March 2007 (CDT)

Viable with Razah?
Ok, since I've been getting annoyed with trying to run a Rit Lord or Attuned Healer build on Razah, I've turned to this build. Slapped it on and took him for a spin around Southern Shiverpeaks. So far it seems fine, however he doesn't seem to ever use Reclaim Essence. More specifically, I would never see his energy drop to risky levels, definitely taking Reclaim Essence out of the picture. Can anyone suggest an area that is fairly strict with energy denial (or enchant removal, for that matter) so I could test this? As for the optional slot, I threw in Dark Bond. Although he tries to keep it on almost all the time, I can always rest easy. Also, Spirit's Gift is just too good, especially with melee based characters because it benefits them as well if they are in the vicinity, counting as an occasional heal and condition removal (it seriously seems like more of a Necromancer skill). Although Razah begins to keep enchants up at the start of battle, I can accept that since the first kill isn't always instant. If Reclaim Essense turns out to be unusable, I think I'll put Jagged in it's place. I would also appreciate it if others would yield some input if they are also running Razah with this build. Keep up the good work on this build. - Schwarz
 * Edit: Nevermind. I was so stupid. I just disabled Boon of creation instead and ultimately found that Razah does not use Reclaim Essence ever, even at 5 energy. Looks like it's Jagged Bones for him. Razah simply relies on Boon of Creation and Animate Bone Minions to keep his energy up, nothing else, unfortunately. And during my time testing Jagged Bones, there was only one occasion where his energy was at a low level. The minion count was also consistent. On another note, I've noticed that Razah is fairly fond of casting Bone Minions and Death Nova when the rest of the team is on the run (It'd be awesome if someone could confirm this). Again, my thinking is that he wants to keep energy at max, and as for Death Nova, just to pre-cast I suppose (though it wasn't as much as when I used to run Olias with the Jagged Bomber build). However, I'll still choose Reclaimed and manually use it for those areas with high enchant removal.- Schwarz [[Image:Aura_of_Displacement.jpg|19px]]
 * Edit2: After more testing with Razah, he actually goes out of his way to stop and cast Jagged and Death Nova (This is most likely because there is no BotM to keep minion hp above the threshold for Death Nova). So if one was fighting in an area where mobs and bodies are far apart, one might want to manually trigger boon after a fight or disable death nova and jagged until the next mob to conserve energy and time. - Schwarz [[Image:Aura_of_Displacement.jpg|19px]]