Talk:Damage calculation

As shown on Judge's Insight there are some things that are wrong in here and a lot of things that might be wrong. 1. Do holy and shadow damage also "ignore" level? 2. Does chaos damage really "ignore" armor? 3. Does Judge's Insight mean light instead of holy? 4. Does partial Tormentor's Armor or Necrotic Armor take double damage from holy? 5. Are Tormentor's Armor and Necrotic Armor vulnerable to light damage? 6. Are light, dark, and chaos damage actually non-elemental? That is, does Ward Against Elements and ranger armor protect against them? Does Winter convert them? 7. Why are light and dark damage like holy and shadow damage? 8. Should generic damage from life stealing and Mesmer skills be mentioned? 9. Have you tested that? How? I'll write a new set of articles if anyone can answer this.--Cloak of Letters 23:29, 12 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * This is an Ollj article, so naturally it needs much elaboration. One thing to note is that Ollj sometimes made assertions when they were in reality observations/hypothesis he was developing. --Karlos 00:19, 13 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * 1. Anything that deals holy or shadow damage will deal the listed damage. Damage for non-weapons is dependent on your attribute for the "green number" and your level for scaling the damage based on armor.  To get the part that scales damage to not modify the listed damage but make sense with armor penetration working with it, the target's armor would be set to your level times 3.
 * 2. No skills say they deal chaos damage. So, the only source are mesmer weapons.  I've never noticed they do more damage than other caster weapons.  This is easily verified, in any case.  I don't know if the manual or somewhere else said that mesmer skills deal chaos damage, but the descriptions don't say so.  This might be why some people think chaos ignores armor, since mesmer skills will do their listed damages.
 * 3. I don't think holy = light. Some monk weapons deal light damage and the same thing I said about mesmer weapons applies (don't think it ignores, but easily testable).
 * 4-5. I don't know. I would guess partial, since nothing but someone with JI will hit anywhere but chest. If that's wrong, then there's a good reason to wear full tormentor's besides chest. This is a little harder to test, since you'd need real people, but still easy.
 * 6. Chaos, at least, definitely is not elemental. I can't say the same for light and dark, but I would assume not.  Only some monk and necro weapons deal either, so it probably doesn't make much of a difference.
 * 7. I'd say the only relationship are the professions monk and necro. I don't think Tetris meant anything in particular when he added those two in his edit.
 * 8. Yes. Even further, what's important but missing is describing what damage is and is not with respect to skill descriptions.  As in, health degen is not damage (degen does not trigger things like Illusion of Weakness).  Health steal is not damage (Protective Spirit doesn't do anything).  There are probably more things of note.
 * 9. We can test all this ourselves if we can get enough people together (eight, in team arenas or unrated GvG, but the former is annoying and the latter means guild hopping) or if someone has appropriate skills on a PvE character to go up against the doppelganger. A few cases can be done in plain PvE, maybe.
 * --Fyren 01:29, 13 Oct 2005 (EST)
 * 2. Chaos damage says chaos damage ignores armor.
 * 3. I mean Judge's Insight would make more sense if it said light because because with a weapon attribute higher than 12 or against a target with less than 60 armor Judge's Insight with holy damage would make you do less damage than Judge's Insight with light damage. Anyway, it needs to be tested instead people saying "I think it works like this!".
 * 4-5. Spells always hit the chest?
 * 8. I didn't know life stealing isn't damage.
 * --Cloak of Letters 06:22, 13 Oct 2005 (EST)


 * Chaos damage is what I meant by I don't know why people thought it does ignore armor. It's not there because it's true, it's there because someone thought it was and put it there (though you could say that about everything in the wiki, heh).  For JI, the enemy's armor would be set to attacker's weapon attribute times five (assuming a warrior or ranger weapon), rather than caster level times three for straight damage like Banish or for caster weapons.  I was unclear on that, I guess, since damage works differently for spells, caster weapons, and other weapons.  It's easy to see that JI increases damage more than just plain 20% penetration would.  Spells that auto-hit/can't be dodged always hit the chest.  --Fyren 07:27, 13 Oct 2005 (EST)
 * Someone pointed out another of my mistakes already below regarding auto-hit spells, but I'm probably wrong on JI, too. Perhaps I'm just dumb.  It appears to just be +20% penetration (as in, AL*4/5 and not (baseline AL)*4/5).  --Fyren 09:15, 18 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Just to try and clarify, I was under the impression that many spells (Fireball, Lightning Orb, Water Trident, etc.) always hit the chest, but not all spells are like this. For instance, I believe that some Air spells always hit the head, such as Lightning Strike (in other words, ones that come down from the air).  Sadly, I don't remember where I saw this (gwonline, maybe?)  This should probably be made clear on this or other pages for hit locations.  --JoDiamonds 17:05, 23 October 2005 (EST)


 * 1/2. Damage types do not ignore armor, only skills do.
 * 3/5/7. Light==Holy, Dark==Shadow.
 * 4. Most likely you'll take double damage iff a location with Tormentor's/Necrotic is hit.
 * 6 They're not elemental.
 * 8. yes, although Mesmer skills might all be Chaos
 * 9. not me (for most of it), but see http://www.gwonline.net/page.php?p=157#DamageTypes 134.130.183.83 07:26, 18 October 2005 (EST)

10. Do Crystal Wave and Obsidian Flame "ignore" armor like shadow damage does? Do they "ignore" level? 11. Does Frenzy really cause double damage or only -40 armor? 12. Do attack skills deal untyped, physical, or piercing/blunt/slashing damage? 13. Does absorption on shields/armor/by rune stack? 14. Where do spells hit? Do lightning strike spells hit the head more often? --Cloak of Letters 20:59, 23 October 2005 (EST)


 * 10. They ignore the enemy level but not your level. This is because spell damage uses your level as part of the equation, so their armor is set as a function of their level.  However, things that lower armor will still take effect.
 * 11. I can't think of a difference.
 * Kind of a followup, or trying to find a difference, and not directly related to Frenzy itself. If you are wearing armor with 20 AL, will a -40 AL put you into negative AL?  What happens then?  Or say armor with 45 AL, will -40AL still mean double damage?  I mostly play mesmer (ignore AL) and monk (doesn't attack), so really have little experience. -PanSola 14:33, 14 November 2005 (UTC)
 * That's a couple of good questions.
 * Negative AL: I don't know. Anyone know if you can have a negative AL?
 * For your second question, the math is both tricksy and simple. No matter what your AL is, if you add +40, you'll take half as much damage, and if you lose -40 AL, you'll take double damage..  So yes, If you go from 45 to 5 AL, you'll take double damage from what you would have taken.  The same is true for 120 -> 80, and 80 -> 40, and 40 -> 0.  This means that someone with 0 AL takes 8 times more damage than someone with 120 AL (because the damage is cut in half three times for the 120 AL). --209.113.159.61 15:55, 14 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm a bit late coming back to this, but a negative AL isn't really a problem. The (empirically derived) damage formula doesn't need a non-negative AL.  But, I went out and tested it anyway.  And I found a difference between -40 AL and doubling damage: rounding.  I went out naked and got hit by some level 3 flash gargoyles' lightning orbs.  Normally, they did 12 damage.  From the damage formula, this means they have 0 air and are doing 11.69 (=10*2^(9/40)) damage before rounding.  Using frenzy, which doubles damage, I took 24 from an orb.  Using healing signet, which is -40 AL, I took 23.  The difference comes from frenzy doubling the not-quite-but-almost-final value that's already rounded while -40 AL is part of the unrounded calculations.  --Fyren 09:15, 18 November 2005 (UTC)


 * 12. The type you're already doing, whatever it is.
 * 13. Yes.
 * 14. Spells that autohit always hit the chest, spells that can be dodged hit a random spot like attacks.
 * --Fyren 03:45, 24 October 2005 (EST)


 * See also: Talk:Lightning_Strike. Which body parts spells hit is currently up for debate and (more importantly) testing. --209.113.159.61 03:21, 25 October 2005 (EST)


 * In a fit of inspiration I tested a few things on the doppelganger. First I took my necro and changed my second profession to monk to take Bane Signet and Banish against my necrotic armor. Each piece of armor increased the damage taken by 5. Then I equipped Deathly Chill and Deathly Swarm and only torso and leg armor. Both had the expected 37.5% chance of 282% extra damage. I switched to my warrior elementalist to try the no helmet Lightning Strike and ended up with 23% chance of extra damage (17 of 74). So I went onto the ramp with Immolate and got 22% on the head. I switched to Stone Daggers to see if I was crazy and got 18% so I have no idea. Then I changed to monk to try Banish against Frenzy, which really is double damage.
 * 4. Each piece adds 5 damage.
 * 11. Frenzy really causes double damage.
 * 14. Spells don't automatically hit the torso and I don't think I want to know anymore.
 * --Cloak of Letters 08:10, 25 October 2005 (EST)
 * Try again with a different holy damage skill, since the damage for those two is nearly the same for 12 smiting. But, I'd guess each piece is giving you -5 AL versus holy, applying globally and stacking.  --Fyren 09:15, 18 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I found out the doppleganger has 15 in all atributes which happens to result in both spells doing the same damage (56 I think it was). 5 more damage works out to be some irrational number of "reduced AL" so I concluded it was simply +5 damage. Plus, I'm short on skills points and not playing much anymore. Also, awhile ago I took a smiting rod against Elemental Resistance.
 * 1., 10. I was trying to make the point that saying "ignore's armor" isn't right. I'm pretty sure from my lower level monk days level makes no differnce.
 * 6. Light, dark, and chaos are not elemental.


 * He has had 12 since the patch that made him easier. What I said before about armor ignoring is right.  It "ignores armor" because the target's real AL doesn't matter.  Of all the ways to get this to work, the one that makes the most sense is to set the target AL to whatever value makes that work out.  --Fyren 17:05, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Recent rewrite
The description of armor ignoring is incorrect. If it set AL to 0, then damage would get scaled up to higher than the listed damage (what the article calls base damage). Instead, AL is set to make the damage result in exactly the listed damage assuming there are no other considerations (as in, other skills in effect that would matter). Related to this, the article says against 60 AL, damage dealt will match base damage. This is not correct for all cases. In the "(60 - EAL)/40" part of the last formula given, the 60 depends on either the attributes or the level of the attacker. --Fyren 19:31, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I corrected the "armor ignoring" mistake already. From what I understand, the departure from the (60 - EAL)/40 bit based on level differences is still fairly speculative; it would be better to point out that this damage description is for two level 20 players. I agree that something must be said about attribute levels. I had already planned to do it and have an initial draft. Like the article says -- work in progress; please be patient for a little while longer. &mdash; Deldda Kcarc 19:54, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


 * For spells, the caster's level matters. The listed damage is based on the attribute rank but the damage scaling on level.  SonOfRah outlined his method well enough that anyone can reproduce his results, though testing the level effect is annoying since it requires, well, levelling.  --Fyren 20:11, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I haven't searched the web too carefully -- is there an obvious link to SonOfRah's writeup? Or is it mostly apocryphal? TIA &mdash; Deldda Kcarc 20:12, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Here. The general formula checks out for anything I've ever tried to verify/test regarding spell and melee damage.  Since I'm lazy and it's more difficult, I never tried working with bows and staves.  --Fyren 20:50, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I have ALWAYS hated the "assume base level is 60, player/mob level is 20, attributes are all 12" thing in any GuildWars damage explainations. It's fine to use those numbers as an illustrated example, but otherwise it really doesn't help someone who is level 11 and fighting mobs of level 14 with the main attribute set at 9.  As far as the SonOfRah article is concerned, his final equations NEVER used the number 60, 20, or 12 (except for weapon damage at attributes greater than 12), so if possible it'd be great if the GuildWiki formula can also avoid the 60 altogether.  BTW, what IS the source of the GuildWiki damage formulas?  I notice it's definitely not a direct deriviation from SonOfRah's... -PanSola 23:33, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Besides the stuff I mentioned (I don't think he discusses armor ignoring, but I haven't actually read the article in a while), it's basically the same, worded differently. --Fyren 01:10, 22 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I took out the sentence For simplicity, let us first describe the damage calculation for the case where both attacker and target are level 20 and have 12 rank in the melee attributes Marksmanship, Hammer Mastery, Axe Mastery and Swordsmanship. because it was not obvious where the level and attributes come into play at all in that section. Later I added mention of lv20 spell and 12-attribute melee/bow in the 60 "normal" EAL sentences because that's the only condition when it's "normal".  Before my revision, it'll just seem 60 EAL is "normal" regardless of attribute points or character level. -PanSola 00:41, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

What skills add damage before armor?
A quick search gave me nothing. If in general most effects that add damage ARE before armor, then the article should be reworded. Right now the wording seems to imply the skill description would explicitly state "before armor" if the bonus damage is such.


 * I don't think anything adds damage "after" armor as opposed to being separate damage (like vampiric, orders, conjures), but I'm not certain on that. --Fyren 01:10, 22 November 2005 (UTC)


 * The game used to have skill descriptions containining the exact words "before armor" in it. It appears that Anet thought it too confusing and took them out. Perhaps this article should follow suit. &mdash; Deldda Kcarc 01:20, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

"Ignores Armor" vs "-40 AL"
For an attack that ignores armor, will the -40 AL (namely from Healing Signet) still cause extra damage? The Fyen's explaination of "AL is set to make the damage result in exactly the listed damage assuming there are no other considerations" really isn't helpful, since it's not obvious if Healing Signet is part of the "other" considerations or not... --PanSola 00:30, 22 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Healing signet doesn't. I don't know for sure if there are or are not any skills that matter as far as AL is concerned.  Frenzy doesn't seem to work by giving you -40 AL, as I mentioned above, because of how it rounds.  It will double armor ignoring damage.  --Fyren 01:10, 22 November 2005 (UTC)