Talk:Title

/Archive

Title-Specific discussions:
 * /Champion
 * /Gladiator
 * /Hero
 * /Faction - for both Luxon and Kurzick tracks
 * /Luck - for both Lucky and Unlucky tracks


 * /Skill Hunter
 * /Cartographer - for both campaigns
 * /Protector - for both campaigns
 * /Drunkard
 * /Treasure Hunter
 * /Wisdom
 * /Survivor
 * /Big Deal

Change in Luck Title?
I've seen screen shots that the last title in the Luck series was "Blessed by Fate," yet now people are saying it is "Golden." The people who took the screen shot did have the Prosperous title (I saw them in game with it), so I doubt they would have lied and made an entire screen shot just for a simple lie. So, did it change when the Nightfall preview came, or what? Also, has anyone verified "Hated" as the last of the Unlucky title? I've searched around for people who have Tragic, but never found any. - Stexe
 * I can't remember exactly when, but it was changed a while ago. &mdash; [[Image:Fin_sig.gif|User:Kyrasantae]] kyrasantae   17:15, 19 October 2006 (CDT)

I was the one who varified it was changed to Golden. At least the first to post screens on Guru & GWO & edit the wiki (I'm Dojo Belok, btw). Also, I have not seen anyone else in the game with Prosperous, so I presume I'm one of few who has it. Another thing, I haven't seen anyone with the fourth level for the Unlucky line (Tragic), so I see no reason at all why "Hated" is in the place instead of a "?". The translations from the Korean site a long time ago were, obviously, wrong for the most part- me, once again, being one of the first to find out that it was "Blessed By Fate" first off instead of whatever it used to be..even though Blessed By Fate is now "Golden". Unless someone has screenshot proof of the fifth line in Unlucky, I think it should be replaced. Perhaps, though, we shall find out this weekend. I have 513,000 wins & 34K losses or something like that, so I do have 16K losses to go- not to mention 487,000 wins to go :(. &mdash; Doctor   8:00 PM, 19 October 2006 (Central)

Hunter or Hunting
Should it be treasure hunter or treasure hunting track? This is where english gets weird. So im looking for advice. In my head it should be Treasure Hunter Track.... which is why my link didn't work :] --Woonack 09:00, 21 August 2006 (CDT); Just noticed its also got Skill Hunter, not skill hunting.

Chop Chop time?
Is it time to break this into sub-artiles linked by the master Title article? I think each title track should go in it's own article so that tips and guides can be placed there. Also so that referencing the specific title from other articles is cleaner. Thoughts? --Karlos 07:10, 2 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Hmmmm ... I find the article not too long yet (especially since it could be shortened by a lot switching most sections to table format, avoiding redundant text). We have much longer article in this wiki that could have been split, but weren't. Also, I don't think that linking to individual titles will happen very often from articles other than user pages.
 * Having said that, I wouldn't mind chop-chop, as long as we also keep an overview in the Title article. :)
 * Karlos, I know you probably hate the idea, but what about working with inclusions to have all the titles both in individual articles and all in one combined article at the same time? --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 07:34, 2 June 2006 (CDT)
 * P.S.: Regardless of the split I'll switch some of the sections to table format now. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 07:35, 2 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I am always loathed to the inclusion scheme, but if it's just in one article (title) and all the others are just straight forward articles, It's not that big of a deal. It's not religion, it's a wiki. :) --Karlos 08:39, 2 June 2006 (CDT)


 * How can you say that? Heretic! Burn him, burn him!!! ;) --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 08:56, 2 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Just put on max superior runes and if you die with 55 life, you get resed with one life. You don't even need aggroed enemies, you just need a vampiric item, your one health goes down instantly, this title doesn't exist I think.
 * I guess the anonymous edit above was meant to go in the "survivor" title discussion section. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 01:53, 12 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Karlos, you wanna go for it? I'll add this task to my to-do list, but first I have to do those gods' statues articles. They've been on my list for ages! --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 01:53, 12 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I'm in favour of keeping it together, but if it does get split up, I think it should be split into account-based titles and character-based titles. Giving each article its own title sounds like overkill. -- Gordon Ecker 03:38, 1 July 2006 (CDT)


 * The article is growing more and more, and some titles are getting a lot of links from other articles. I think it is definetly enough to warrant splitting. Shall we vote? --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 07:11, 27 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Anyone? --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 01:37, 31 October 2006 (CST)


 * For starters, and to give people a better idea, I've chop-chopped the Champion, created a separate article for it, but also included it in the title article. The title article looks exactly as it looked before, but the champion is still separate. Do you like it? I do. Unless anybody objects by the end of the week I'll process all titles in the same manner. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 02:07, 31 October 2006 (CST)

Still see absolutely no good reason for this. --Rainith 06:20, 31 October 2006 (CST)


 * No good reason?? Check "What links here". There are more than 100 links to the article, even if you don't count the links from user and talk pages, and pretty much all of these links are meant for an individual title (Cartographer, Drunkard, Survivor, Lightbringer, ...), hence linking to a section of the article. This isn't like key or chest, where splitting into all the individual keys/chests was decided to be overkill, even though they are actually individual items. I'd say splitting is well warranted. The talk page was already split by individual titles for a good reason (see top of page). --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 06:43, 2 November 2006 (CST)
 * All solvable with redirects to this article... --Rainith 11:08, 2 November 2006 (CST)
 * Oh, please! Yes, of course it's "solvable" by a redirect workaround, but is it feasible? Let's put ALL the content of GuildWiki in ONE big article and make all the individual articles redirects to it, shall we? ;)
 * Don't get me wrong. Usually I'm in favor of keeping information together rather than splitting it, because a big article often gives a better overview and avoids redundancy. But in this case I have to say there is little benefit. The individual titles have very little to do with eachother except that they are all titles (which can be covered by a single sentence). There is little need for a big overview. Who wants to see ALL the progressions of ALL the titles? And even if, it can easily be done by inclusion, like I've done with the Champion article. The most compelling argument for me are the 100+ links. Yes, they can be covered by redirects, but IMHO redirects to sections of an article are really cumbersome and should be avoided. If an individual section of an article gets a lot of links that alone is sufficient evidence for me that a separate article for that section is warranted. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]]  02:58, 3 November 2006 (CST)
 * I'll start a vote. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 02:41, 6 November 2006 (CST)

Vote: Split?
Should the title article be split?

... into individual articles for each title, like it's been done (as a test) for the champion article?


 * No, keep them together in one big article.
 * --Xeeron 05:44, 12 November 2006 (CST) I like browsing the different titles on one page.
 * -- &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 18:33, 12 November 2006 (CST) - I'm not opposed to split with inclusion, but I don't think split without inclusion is a good idea.
 * Yes, split, ...
 * (...with inclusion - akin champion - so the title article will keep its look)
 * -- James Sumners 06:49, 7 November 2006 (CST) I want to see all titles and all title progressions.
 * --NieA7 07:08, 7 November 2006 (CST) (more important we present coherent information than it's easy to edit)
 * (...without inclusion - so the title article will only be an overview list)
 * --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 02:41, 6 November 2006 (CST)
 * --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) I would vote for inclusion, but that would confuse new contributors when they try to edit the article.
 * --Lord Ehzed 06:30, 7 November 2006 (CST)
 * — Jyro X [[Image:Darkgrin.jpg|25px]] 08:29, 7 November 2006 (CST) - I also vote for a nav-bar for the titles to be created to put on each title page. (Note: Further discussion regarding navbar moved to separate section below!)
 * - Foo 09:02, 9 November 2006 (CST)
 * --Gusnana1412 15:24, 10 November 2006 (GMT +1)
 * Sign here for support
 * Other (specify)
 * Sign here for support

This vote will be open for 1 week, until Monday the 13th of November. The deadline may be extended in case of a stalemate outcome of the vote.

For discussion see the section above! -- 02:41, 6 November 2006 (CST)


 * °Bump° Just a friendly daily reminder: 6 days left to vote :) --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 01:55, 7 November 2006 (CST)
 * Daily reminder: 5 days left --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 04:55, 8 November 2006 (CST)
 * Give me an F. Give me an O. Give me a U. Give me an R. F-O-U-R days left! --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 05:04, 9 November 2006 (CST)
 * Final call. Only 1 day left. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 03:04, 12 November 2006 (CST)
 * I didn't know this was going on...  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 18:33, 12 November 2006 (CST)
 * That's why I bumped it so often. :p :D
 * Anyway ... Hereby I declare the vote closed. The result is pretty clear. I'll create an article for each title, and I'll fix all links to the title article. The title article will contain a list.
 * I'll create the articles in such a way that inclusion is possible. I consider also creating Title overview, which would include all titles. This should make those happy who voted for "No" or "Yes, with inclusion". --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 05:01, 13 November 2006 (CST)

Navbar
Note: This discussion has been moved here from the vote section above in order not to clutter the vote process and to keep discussion separate. -- 06:31, 8 November 2006 (CST)


 * Jyro X wrote: I also vote for a nav-bar for the titles to be created to put on each title page. Jyro X [[Image:Darkgrin.jpg|25px]] 08:29, 7 November 2006 (CST)
 * Yes, a similiar nav bar as for the miniatures. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 05:51, 8 November 2006 (CST)
 * Does this look okay? Details are subject to discussion, of course. :) --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 06:31, 8 November 2006 (CST)

Protected
Why did you make this article protected Skuld? - Stexe

If no other admins beat me to it, I'll unprotect it two weeks from the end of the Dragon Festival. Unless other people think it needs extended protection (in which case please state so). - 13:41, 6 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I think it would be a good idea to monitor this page after the protection is removed. It may need extended protection.  As it is now, any registered user can still edit it, only anon edits have been excluded.  --Rainith 15:49, 6 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Have a look at the history, from the edit summarys you can see just how much anon vandalism there is &mdash; Skuld  02:14, 7 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I've added this to my watch list, so I'll keep an eye on it as well.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 07:04, 15 July 2006 (CDT)

Death Title
I know that the Death Title Track is absolutely uncomfirmed, but it would still be nice to read something about it in the article. At least something like "There are rumors about a Death Title Track which would supposedly trigger at 100 000 character deaths, but this is probably not true..." etc etc... So it would be something like a comment rather than part of the article. Yeah, I know I should do it myself, but I'm still new and I'm afraid of screwing things up. Otherwise, I don't know that much about the history of this rumor myself.. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Adul (talk &bull; contribs) 07:47, 23 July 2006 (CDT).


 * I'd rather not have that in the article, it is pure speculation for now ST47 [[Image:Romu-icon.png|User:ST47/Romu_of_SFI]] [[Image:Romu-unlock.png|User:ST47/Account#Unlocked_Elites|8px]] (talk) 07:59, 23 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Okay, no problem. I'm into it, actually, because I've never heard anyone saying anything about reaching 100 000 deaths which isn't really such a big deal as it can be done in about 2 weeks.And I've got enough work to do on my comp, so why not try it during? I'll tell you if I found something. Adul 10:36, 23 July 2006 (CDT)


 * please don't remove the unsigned template, as it messes up the time of posting [[Image:ST47logo.jpg|User:ST47|50px]] [[Image:Romu-icon.png|User:ST47/Romu_of_SFI]] [[Image:Romu-unlock.png|User:ST47/Account#Unlocked_Elites|8px]] (talk) 10:41, 23 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Sorry, I still need to get used to this. Adul 10:43, 23 July 2006 (CDT)


 * The general rule is that we don't post rumors. If there is something rumored to exist (a Death-title track for example), ask about it in the talk page for the appropriate article.  The last thing that we want is for the pages of the wiki to become full of rumor and speculation to the point that they are essentially useless.
 * The only exception to this that I can think of is the Terror Shield article. And the only reason that was added was because that fake was soooo prevalent and talked about when it first came up.  The point of that article was to try to help people and stop them from being fooled.  --Rainith 13:00, 23 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I am sure there is no death title. The lower levels of titles are shown even when you have a very low count. Ie I can see the drunkard title with only a few minutes of drunkness. The people with 100,000 deaths would surely see a title in their title tab if one existed. Gaile also said a line or two about it in the latest Gaile talk. She said it might be cool or something. Can't remember. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 15:19, 23 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Ditto. There was a guy over at gwguru who posted his 1.000.000th (yes, that's 1M, not 100K) death's screenshots. He would know of a title track, would he not? --Ishmaeel 02:46, 24 July 2006 (CDT)


 * The maximum dying frequency is about 4 deaths/minute = 1/(10 sec wait for ress + 5 sec invulnerablility). So dying 10^6 times lasts 10^6 deaths/4 dpm = 250000 minutes = 173 days. If anyone got that he used an account just to farm deaths... That sounds like a fake!
 * You can die faster than that 5 sec of invulnerability with a vamp weapon...but it still would take forever. And not all title tracks show progress starting from the way begining...survivor for example.
 * YOu can also get any character in the game down to 55 HP with low armor and have them stand at a rez-shrine with aggro all around it and just keep dying over and over. That would be more than 4 deaths per minute. It would be closer to around 6. — Jyro X [[Image:Darkgrin.jpg|25px]] 05:52, 2 November 2006 (CST)

Rank 13 Achieved
Someone has rank 13 now.

all we have to do is get them to sell us what rank 14 title is called.

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/1592/r13lz4.jpg
 * Couldn't you have switched language to english? The german version is no use.. &mdash; Skuld  09:43, 23 July 2006 (CDT)
 * it translates as 'Heroine of the Emperor', or 'Emperor's Hero' --[[Image:Kitty1.png|28px|]] (Talk) (Cont) [[Image:Soft2.png|28px|]] 10:00, 23 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Isn't that listed on the page? I want to know R14. Kitty that thing is hideous, don't make me go round your posts and change them all ;p &mdash; Skuld  10:44, 23 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Perhaps it's time to disallow images in signatures for the same reasons WP does. --68.142.14.19 10:55, 23 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Definately the wrong place. complain on my/KS's talk page or go to GuildWiki Talk:Community Portal [[Image:ST47logo.jpg|User:ST47|50px]] [[Image:Romu-icon.png|User:ST47/Romu_of_SFI]] [[Image:Romu-unlock.png|User:ST47/Account#Unlocked_Elites|8px]] (talk) 11:04, 23 July 2006 (CDT)

new glad title
friend unko just got conquering next level is subjugating at 775 points --Theonemephisto 09:08, 16 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Picture




 * I think it's pretty obvious by this point that gladiator streaks needed are following perfectly along with the hero fame needed track, off by a factor of ten and offset slightly in the beginning. All in favor of adding Vanquishing through Eminent gladiator cells in the table sign below. (for the record: Vanquishing - 1,296; Renowned - 2,160; Illustrious - 3,600; Eminent - 6,000)--Tarutaru 02:31, 19 August 2006 (CDT)

Big Deal Track
http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/2705/immaginetb8.jpg

if u needed prooves. it's being added by september 15th update

A question for someone - do the Account based titles, when maxed, count towards the Kind of a Big Deal title, or is it Character based titles only? I think this is a very important thing to include in the main article if someone knows the answer. - Heron
 * I'm prety sure that they do (savior lux/kurz)...but I'm not 100% Sister Brianne 22:19, 7 November 2006 (CST)

Sunspear Titles
Okay, what is this note doing here, and what does it pertain to? It's just at the end of the table. Note: You must be at least a Sunspear Lieutenant to wear the title. Nalee Everborn 15:08, 25 September 2006 (CDT)
 * It's equivalent to the Hero title in which you must reach the third tier in the title before you can display it. -Savio 15:22, 25 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Why is there a note saying that it's not possible to reach the Spearmarshal title yet? I haven't heard about this. — Jyro X [[Image:Darkgrin.jpg|25px]] 06:03, 2 November 2006 (CST)
 * In fact, it is possible to achieve the Spearmarshal title. See [[Image:Spearmarshal.jpg]] - unfortunately he didn't tell me how he achieved the title. -- Sai Qui 18:41, 2 November 2006 (CST)
 * Probably by killing monsters that can revive themselves while still able to get Blessings from Priests...
 * I must say that I'm a little sad about that. As a enthusiastic player you can't reach the higest level because you didn't know that you should kill about 1100 enemys in one area (some less if you solve the quests after farming). In my mind that's unfair. And it's the 3rd max title a fast veteran cannot reach (besides survivor, defender of ascalon). I hope that an update or the elite mission when implemented (or when I found it) will change the situation.
 * Btw Anet, why don't you change the survivor title. E.g. you would have to earn the points without an increase in death count instead of earning them with a death count of 0. This would enable this title for veterans. ---Kai Neah Nung 07:07, 6 November 2006 (CST)

We need a description of how/where/when/etc. you "get blessings from priests" that affect this title. I can find no link to this subject. What must a player do after they hit Sunspear Commander to keep acquiring promotion points towards this title? Shaktiboi 09:03, 3 November 2006 (CST)
 * You get blessings to earn sunspear promotion points from a priest as long as you are below sunspear rank 8 (castellan). -- Sai Qui 07:04, 4 November 2006 (CST)


 * Gaile Gray posts answers regarding the Sunspear and Lightbringer titles cap and the Elite Mission. There will be an easier way to achieve max in both titles and the Elite Mission will be placed in the game, her words In a few months. The stop of bounties, hunts, etc. at rank 8 is intentional. ANet knows that some players have found a way around this to reach the final rank and she does not say whether they will nerf it or not. &mdash; Gares 08:59, 6 November 2006 (CST)


 * Damn...this is a pain. I was/am dead-set on getting Spearmarshal. :( Arshay Duskbrow 00:18, 11 November 2006 (CST)

20 consecs = 1 point in RA/TA
Yep. I got 27 consecs. Only 1 point. Guildie said the same. Someone confirm?--Silk Weaker 04:59, 8 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I get one every 10 consecs. Grz 13:04, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I very clearly remember not getting a point after winning 10 matches once. Might be a bug or some unknown condition that was not meet, but my guess is that you normally get a point every 10 matches, but you didnt due to the same reason I did not. --Xeeron 06:30, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

New "title effects"
Dislike that idea alot. So far ANet has thankfully stayed away from giving rewards (other than the ego boosting sort) for farming. So now you need the most farming related title of them all to successfully salvage weapons? Blah. I would not mind them adding a glowing halo or such, but anything that has effects on the game (and not only the visuals) is a bad idea imho. Will my mini-kuunavang start to deal damage as well? Meh. --Xeeron 16:50, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Yeh. This sucks man. I'm losing faith in the one expansion which I actually had faith in. I hope Nightfall wont be such a disapointment as Factions. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 17:00, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I thought I were the only one going to hate this. Obviously not, nice to hear. The rewards would be nice, if the titles would be possible for everyone to reach. The treasure hunter is not, I would say. You have to be good at chest farming and have money for keys, or play for years. Not my style of "casual play". Though, weapons still have minor effects, if you play good. I have more doubts about the Lightbringer title. Will it cause elitism in PvE too now? Or how will it work? &mdash; Stylva  18:11, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Worse yet, the wisdom title track is character-based. So if you really want the title, you need to decide which character is going to go for it, then give all gold items to that one character to identify.  A bit of a pain needing to shuffle through storage to transfer items whenever you want it identified. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 18:21, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm going to add my objections to this too. The biggest thing Anet seemed to be stressing was rewarding skill and not time spent grinding. I'm not going to speak about Lightbringer, as there's no information stating how it will be earned, but the Wisdom title explicitly rewards grinding. Boo-urns --[[Image:SmallMapleLeaf.jpg|User:ImbrilShadowfire]] Imbril Shadowfire  18:25, 20 October 2006 (CDT)

I think you guys are missing ANet's point. In case you are not aware, the title system is ANet's way of keeping PvEers happy and busy. Happy by satisfying their ego with something to show their PvE achievements other than becoming level 100 and lookin gdown on people, and busy because most will take a lot of work and keep you in the game instead of running off to WoW.

So, for them to give in-game effects to some of the titles is a logical thing to do. I can bet that the effects in general will be minor but will make the title owner proud and boastful and so forth. As one who has a bunch of titles and worked hard at many of them, I am happy. But I also know it won't be a big edge, because then, as Xeeron said, grind will become required, something ANet will never allow. --Karlos 18:33, 20 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Well I am not against titles, I have quite a few of them myself, but I dont see why people need another reward for that. So far I have seen people being happily spending hours and days just running around walls to get the cartografer title. The titles did work, there was no need to change it. And the wisdom title was the worst of the lot they could have choosen for it as well, since there is no way a casual gamer can ever achieve that one. --Xeeron 19:00, 20 October 2006 (CDT)
 * On the other hand, I seldom find weapons I want to keep but want to salvage a mod off. Either, I want the weapon as it is, I want the mod, or I can change the mod to a mod I like. It's not a very big issue with the Wisdom title for me after all. It's to see how the Lightbringer title turns out, but they have probably thought it out in a nice way. &mdash; Stylva  06:11, 21 October 2006 (CDT)


 * I think you missed the point of the kool thing about the wisdom title advantage. You can basically try and salvage the perfect Sundering mod off that sundering Falchion of Ogreslaying nad then get the Ogreslaying mod, so now you can try again. It's a HUGE advantage over the previous 50/50 flip a coin technique (not to mention the odds of actually getting Iron Ingots). --Karlos 07:57, 21 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Well, I rarely find a weapon with two perfect mods I want, but yes, I see the nice thing in that. Though, it's not so big that you really have to get the Wisdom title just for that. Imho. But I still think that titles that affect gameplay should be possible to get for casual gamers. &mdash; Stylva  08:03, 21 October 2006 (CDT)


 * What Stylva said: The idea is nice, but why involve the wisdom title? --Xeeron 08:05, 21 October 2006 (CDT)


 * I like this idea. Gives me another reason to try to get titles, but, I bet these advantages won't be big enough to "OMG I CAN NOW 1 HIT KILL ANY DEMON11!1!1!*shiftlock*". Remember, ANet always tries to make everyone happy, casual players or people who can dedicate themselves to a title, titles are obviously something to be grinded. Casual players might not be winning anything with THIS feature, even though that after one year playing even a casual player might have a decent title. But remember, it's not like the bonus titles will give are going to be something to break the balance of the game, which is obviously GW's essence, heart, soul, or whatever you may want to call it. There are other features which will benefit the casual players, like for example the build save/load feature, which is going to save A LOT of time, a preciousity to most players. Just think that it's something new for grinders to achieve, which will not spoil gameplay, or allow some player to get as strong as South Park's WoW villain. Thanks A.Net, for everything announced on that newsletter because it made me even more excited to play Nightfall. Ericdanie 09:19, 21 October 2006 (CDT)

The Treasure Hunter and Seeker of Wisdom titles
If I understand the October 25th update correctly, the way it is worded, salvaging items have a base 50% chance success rate with a 3% increase x (your rank in "Treasure Hunter" + "Seeker of Wisdom"). So if I have Advanced Trasure Hunter (3) and Collector of Wisdom (2). That's 3% times 5 or a 15% added to the base 50%. So that would mean a total 65% success rate of salvaging. Correct? --DaveBaggins 01:34, Oct 26 2006 (CST)


 * Looks like it, but they changed it, when they FIRST put that on the site, it was a 75% chance to salvage without destroying. And +1% per rank in those titles. It was much better that way because it didnt give people with both those titles a huge advantage. Now I kinda agree with those who were mad about the reward, if it was something small like their site FIRST said, then it wouldnt bother me, but now only a 50% chance(base) with +3% per rank? thats crazy. People with both maxed have a 92% chance to salvage without breaking the wep, way more unbalanced going from 50% up to 92%, as opposed to a 75% base and going up to a 99% base. --Mwpeck 10:53, 26 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Yeah, it's disappointing, but it probably won't have a huge impact, since most gold items only either only one valuable mod or all cheap / unpopular / common / non-max mods. -- Gordon Ecker 18:45, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

Legendary Defender of Ascalon title
I'm surprise to see lvl 20 in pre-ascalon with title "Legendary Defender of Ascalon". I wonder if anyone know more about this title.
 * Title: Legendary Defender of Ascalon
 * Accusation: Level 20 in pre-searing Ascalon
 * Picture: [[Image:lvl20prec.JPG]]

--Gusnana1412 19:32, 26 October 2006 (GMT +1)

mailed to me and gares &mdash; Skuld 17:56, 26 October 2006 (CDT)


 * I would really want to see what the hover says. Foo 18:08, 26 October 2006 (CDT)

Can anyone confirm or deny the existence of this title? I haven't seen or heard about it in any game updates or in-game. — Jyro X 03:34, 27 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Since the June 15, 2006 update monsters don't gain XP from killing players, so the old "death level" method no longer works. AFAIK there is currently no way to climb higher than level 16 in pre-searing. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 04:08, 27 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Right in general, but for some class combinations, if you skip ALL quests, and do them at level 16, you can reach 17. Foo 04:22, 27 October 2006 (CDT)


 * I successfully leveled a strider up to level 2 after about 12-13 kills yesterday (and gained 160xp for killing it, me being level 1) &mdash; Skuld 04:36, 27 October 2006 (CDT)


 * According to this thread on the gwonline.net forums the monsters do level up again, which makes the title possible. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 07:14, 27 October 2006 (CDT)


 * The title already there (I didnt know when the title comes out) and also lvling from monster is not possible again (correct me if I'm wrong) but you still can lvling monster that you can charm (eq. strider). Here is the complete image from above and censor for the name: http://img195.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gw005censorvp5.jpg . I also succesfull to raise strider lvl from 1 to 3 (get bored n sleepy soon xD) will try to lvl my char with charr first then find motivation to lvling from strider or other xD. --Gusnana1412 14:24, 27 October 2006 (GMT +1)


 * Uh..anyone Nottice Something missing From this picture? For one Wheres the character who took it? Yes he could be in First person...HOWEVER I realized something they changed the look of the skillbar after nightfall release and this picture has the old skillbar! I think this Proves the picture is false ~ Zero rogue x 04:10, 28 October 2006 (CDT)


 * I just tested out the title thing by leveling up a warrior from level 1 to level 5 in Pre-Searing and I did not see the title track. The survivor title track is there but there is absolutely no Legendary Defender of Ascalon...This is probably a nice make-up imo photoshopped from Legendary Survivor, Defender of the Kuzicks/Luxons and Protector of Ascalon. ~ [[Image:Expert's_Dexterity.jpg|24px]] Sylv  (Talk | Contributions) 15:18, 27 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Protector of Ascalon?? Anyway, what makes me suspicious is the "legendary" for a (1) rank. But who knows. --Xeeron 17:30, 27 October 2006 (CDT)


 * My bad I just invented a title but you get the picture. I'd delete the Defender of Ascalon title but I'd rather have a confirmation from someone else also first. | Proof#1~ [[Image:Expert's_Dexterity.jpg|24px]] Sylv  (Talk | Contributions)
 * I don't believe this is a real title and it should be taken out unless real proof can be gotten. This seems like a very good photoshop edit to me. — Jyro X [[Image:Darkgrin.jpg|25px]] 21:19, 27 October 2006 (CDT)


 * My friend has a level 10 pre-searing char and the title does not show up in her hero window. --Karlos 03:43, 28 October 2006 (CDT)
 * After questioning a number of people in pre-searing I believe the title dosn't show up until level 10-12. I have asked three seperate level 15 characters in pre-searing and they all confirm it. I am working on reaching level 12 to get a screen shot to prove it, but this title should be placed back up on the site. --Guest 18:43, 28 October 2006 (CDT)

This title is real. I have it in my title track. I am level 14/20. It reads Defender of Ascalon Title Track (no title earned). When i mouse over it says. You will earn the title Legendary Defender of Ascalon if you reach level 20 prior to the destruction of Ascalon. And I know God Anti-- and they have the title also although I was not the one to post that screen shot.


 * I Just made a Character in Pre-searing and began asking around if anyone has this title. I asked a lv10, Lv13, lv11, and two lv14's It seems that this title IS real! It appears when you reach lv14. ~ Zero rogue x 02:49, 29 October 2006 (CST)


 * I don't believe it. We all know Anet, and their sense of humor. If something like this did exist we would of heard about it alot more recently and it would probably have some sort of joke name. Don't you think it's fishy that ever word in that is from a different title? It's also a little convenient this came was posting around the same time Nightfall was released. Twenty missions. I bet I know where the 14/20 came from on that picture Skuld put up. And why 14 anyway? Since when do titles appear mid-way through? Don't they appear... at the start and at the end? Alt F Four 06:09, 29 October 2006 (CST)


 * I completely agree with Alt F Four. I believe this is a nicely made photoshop and I had the 14/20 thing from nightfall missions in mind as well as the title name coming from other titles. In any ways, unless this God Antipowers guy shows up in a district wielding the so-called title, I will not beleive this. Also, how come the first information concerning this title was talking about level 5? I tested it and now we say 14. What's even more weird is that the we have an unsigned message saying he got the title track 14/20 made by KindlyHero which is a newly created account with contributions mostly related to this title track (see contributions here). Before that message, we have another person confirming the title but this person signed as Guest: a page from wiki talking about guest invites. When watching over the history, I realize that the person who did this modification is also a newly created account whose contributions are only about this title track (See contributions  here). Isn't it a bit weird? or is it just a mere coincidence? That same Guest person then requests the title to be put on the site again without any clear proof. So what is this? A bunch of friends who tried to do a bad trick in Wiki? Listen I don't want to sound rude or whatsoever but if a clear stable proof that this title track exists is not provided, this title won't be showed up on the title page as Wiki is made of facts not rumors or bad tricks. Until then I will try to contact that God Antipowers person for him/her to show me his/her title. Enough of these games.
 * ~ [[Image:Expert's_Dexterity.jpg|24px]] Sylv  (Talk | Contributions)


 * Kindly is the guy I talked to ingame &mdash; Skuld 11:14, 30 October 2006 (CST)

My conversation screen-shot and edited the name of the char player, I use mspaint and no photoshop.
 * Conversation 1: http://img127.imageshack.us/my.php?image=proofconv1yr6.jpg
 * Conversation 2: http://img108.imageshack.us/my.php?image=proofconv2wf7.jpg

For more concrete prooft, if there anyone here on guildwiki have good contact with NCSoft support, please ask them and put their reply here. For more info for the player name, contact me in game and state the purpose why you want to contact him/her. (Note: I'm not God Antipxxxxx friend and I didnt ask permission to put his/her char/title in here). My char on pre-searing only lvl12 and dont show any title progresion for the defender title, it is possible the title will show up only when your char reach some lvl (bigger than lvl12). Note: I think this title is not for "normal" player and lvling more than lvl 12 in pre-searing is a hard work and need a lot of patient and time. Additional note for Sylv, I dont know if you already asking permission to put player name in here. If not I do prefer you change it. --Gusnana1412 22:09, 29 October 2006 (GMT +1)


 * I spoke with a level 14 Monk/Warrior in Pre-Searing who confirmed that he had the title track. - Greven 15:50, 29 October 2006 (CST)


 * I have sent screen shots of the title track to admins. This is KindlyHero I am new and I never became a member because you guys always beat me to the new info. Well finally I have some This title is real. When it appears I'm not sure. But I do know I'm level 14 in pre searing and i have this title in my track list.

Now I'm level 15 and the title still isnt earned yet but it says 15/20. Conspiracy theorizes all you want but this title is real.


 * Of course it is real, there have been screenshots and confirmations by mulitple people. The fact is the title appears at level 14 while in pre. This title was probably put in as a joke by A-Net or as a gift to people who spend their lives in pre and can't get other titles. The last screen shot posted above seals the deal, people who say this is all one big hoax have probably never even bothered to look into it. This title should be posted immeditly by the numerous confirmations and screenshots that are shown. Many things on this site can be altered or changed without this much confustion, so the idea that people would go to such great lengths is silly. Ever hear of Ockom's Razor, the simpiliest explantion tends to be the best one. Well there either is a title or a big conspiracy theory involving hundreds of people trying to fool Guildwiki. Also Sylv, some people are not as good as making links, but that should not dissuade you from the truth or blind you to knowledge.

I've added the title back because no one else has done it. -- (talk) 02:23, 31 October 2006 (CST)

Well honestly this title seemed like a total hoax at first but then some people gave additional prooves and confirmed the existence of the title track so don't see me as the big bad blue guy. I just requested for additional confirmations because this whole thing was way too suspicious to my eyes (see my last post). We have them and the thing is closed: it appears at level 14. ~ Sylv  (Talk | Contributions)


 * There have been no proofs beyond the initial two screenshots&mdash;all other screenshots are from the same place by the same character. I have no opinion on whether this should be in the article or not, but it would be misleading to say the existence of this has been proved beyond doubt. &mdash;Tanaric 13:00, 31 October 2006 (CST)


 * I agree, and furthermore, I would have it off the article for now. if someone wants to proove it, make a note in this talk page, saying when we could all come and see it at a presearing id. there will be enough knows editors here to respond in time and vouch. Foo 16:08, 31 October 2006 (CST)


 * The problem is that there is only one person known to have this title, and that is God Antip-. People do not have this title becuase it takes over 2000 hours of gameplay, becuase killing Charr Bosses at high levels grants very little experince and Death Leveling is 10x slower. The best way for the editors to confirm this is to make a character in pre-searing and level up to 14. That way the evidence will be there for you to see and share among yourselves. I am working on trying to get the title (lvl 11 at the moment) and let me tell you I will probably reach level 20 by the time Guild Wars 4 comes out becuase it takes so long.


 * I didnt notice if my char lvl 12 have the title progression, here the SS fresh new also use mspaint to make it smaller (only mspaint). http://img95.imageshack.us/my.php?image=anotherprooftif8.jpg
 * I might say this will close this discussion :)--Gusnana1412 14:30, 2 November 2006 (GMT +1)

My main reason for disbelief in this title is the fact that the status bar isn't like the other level-based title, Survivor. Survivor measures in XP. Not levels attained. And it is a well known fact that you do not attain the first rank of Survivor until you reach exactly level 20. So, why should the Defender of Ascalon title be any different? I just think it's really convenient that no one discovered this title until the release of Nightfall and its 20 missions... — Jyro X 12:01, 2 November 2006 (CST)

This may shed some light on the issue. It's a link to a Gaile Gray chatlog. The relevant part is Gaile Gray's comments near the bottom, interspersed with the yellow Froggie text.

http://img123.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitled2mu3.gif

Gwm 13:08, 2 November 2006 (CST)


 * While that chat log doesn't sway the evidence either way, at least in my eyes, the two screenshots of one character having the title and a different character's hero screen showing progression of the title, added with confirm reports of the title's existance proves the information should stay in the article. If some of you feel so strongly that it is a hoax, it seems to me that this is now a case of innocent until proven guilty.


 * And I'm surprised at the accusing of a new user. Since he went to Skuld and I with screenshots after it was first taken off the title article, most of his edits do deal with the title, but there are so many due to not using the preview button if you looked at the time periods of them, and I was the one that talked him through registering. Paranoia has been around in the past and everytime it shows up, nothing good comes from it. &mdash; Gares 14:51, 2 November 2006 (CST)

Comment for this title not show up in the update or different from other title, I think one of the dev team found out that there are a few player in pre-searing that able to reach lvl 20 with restriction max mob lvl only 10 which make lvl 20 in pre-searing is an unique hardcore player. Also in the time when they notice it, title system already there, so one or more from dev team thought, why dont give a special title for lvl 20 char in pre-searing. It will give them a nice gift/reward for their hard work and time. This title is not intended for all people and I think dev team dont have plan to make this title for everyone nor "driving"(I cant find a better word, sorry >.<) everyplayer to achive it, simple as an Elite title where some small amount of people can and willingly to achive it. Some example like having luxury car on your garage like McLarenF1, where not every people could get it and only certain people know about it and know how to get it. --Gusnana1412 23:03, 2 November 2006 (GMT +1) I had problem accessing or login into guildwiki, sorry for inconvenient :( --Gusnana1412 23:22, 2 November 2006 (GMT +1)


 * Save for Gusnana1412, why is it that all the supportive evidence is posted by people who leave their comments unsigned? Why do people go out of their way to spread bullshit? I say guilty until proven innocent. Removed it from the article until we get soild proof from a major contributor to the Wiki. Sorry, Gusnana1412. You contradicted yourself when you claimed not to have it at level 12 and then posted a screen shot of it. At level 12.
 * See here: 'http://img95.imageshack.us/my.php?image=anotherprooftif8.jpg '
 * And here: '...My char on pre-searing only lvl12 and dont show any title progresion for the defender title...'


 * My bullshit detector is beeping. Point and case. Alt F Four 21:01, 2 November 2006 (CST)


 * And who exactly is a major contributor? Does a sysop have to check every fact before it goes into the wiki now?


 * I strongly recommend that this is left in the article for now. If someone who is level 14 in pre-searing finds that no title track appears then they can post here and we can remove it.


 * Please see GW:AGF  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 03:04, 3 November 2006 (CST)


 * To Alt F Four and other who feel strange about my post, I'm sorry when I post the first SS of Anti, I didnt check my title progression before posting and when I checkit I dont pay much attention. What I remmeber is I have 2 title Unlucky lvl2 and Lucky lvl1 at that time and what I'm doing at that time was excited to ask Anti how can he/she able to get the title. Yes it is my fault why dont I check my title (or prepared a complete report before I post). But if you dont belive me, please ask other people in pre-searing who already lvl 12 or above or Why dont you create temporary char in pre-searing and train it to lvl 12 and see by your self your title progression, If its to difficult for you ask your best friend who willing to create a new pre-searing char. I might made a mistake about the detail, I'm not a perfect person but this title is not a bs nor hoax. Also there are a few SS from other player in Guildwarsguru forum website, here the link: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10070635&page=2 . If one of you need company when lvling and questing in pre-searing you can pm me in game, char name: "Rei Chi" pre-searing or "Gus Nana" post-searing, I'm in guildwars ussually at night (after work) you can try to pm me > 21:00 PM (GMT +1), I play in America region. You might not want to trust me, but you should trust this title exist ;)--Gusnana1412 14:27, 3 November 2006 (GMT +1)

I'm still quite skeptical about the title though those who fight for it do it quite fiercely. So let's stop this useless arguing and get to the point. Some person in this thread said he knew God Antipowers in the game. We could use your help to arrange a meeting for one minute or two simply to meet up God Antipowers and clear this whole discussion. This way, we could confirm the title's existence or not. Yes this is suspicious but let's not speculate so much. If all they want is to prove the title's existence, then all I want is to see the title in person. How about it? IGN: Alexei Dragor ~ Sylv  (Talk | Contributions)
 * I agree. IGN: Jyro X — Jyro X [[Image:Darkgrin.jpg|25px]] 10:12, 3 November 2006 (CST)

Proof was shown to me: I will be working to see when the title first appears. — Jyro X 13:15, 4 November 2006 (CST)

The title has been confirmed. Numerous individuals including me and Jyro X met up in a district with God Antipowers and we saw the title in person. Though the title in question was very suspicious at first, its existence is purely confirmed and there will be no more debates on that subject. However, information concerning the appearence of the title track itself is not yet complete. Here is a screenshot I took as a proof of its existence:. (Don't mind my bad spelling in the screenshot). ~ Sylv  (Talk | Contributions)

Thanks for Jyro, Sylv and others who participate for today(04/11/06) and I'm not forget, thank you for "God Antipowers" cooperation :D. Another Anti SS from me, contain about Anti armor and a bit talk about the armor. Note: SS edited with mspaint and hostit with imageshack.us, warning huge resolution (2032x2022). http://img179.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gw046combinehs2.jpg --Gusnana1412 02:00, 5 November 2006 (GMT +1)

I didn't know where else to ask this, but is it possible to get survivor and this title in any way. I thought about using two accounts but the ressurection at the shrine won't happen unless everyone in the party is dead. So is there another way to get to level 20 in pre without dying?

I've a lvl 13 Ele (without 2nd class) in Pre-Searing with a Prophecies-only account, and she has no title. Well still about 20 charr runs from lvl 14, so either you have to get a 2nd class, finish one of those starter quests, to see the title, or its a mass-fake. --Gib Resahp
 * Definately not a fake unless someone has managed to hack one of the data servers. I believe that you probably have to have a secondary class for it to show up. If it doesn't show up at level 14, take a secondary and then let us know if the track shows up. — Jyro X [[Image:Darkgrin.jpg|25px]] 09:37, 7 November 2006 (CST)
 * Yeah its not a fake, it shows up today. Well i was only testing the death leveling with a Strider, so i'm still level 13, but my deaths are now 443 (before 189). So maybe to see the title, you have to die well 200,250,300 ... times ??? I'll try to do some tests with a lvl 1 char. -Gib Resahp

Actually attaining the title is somewhat difficult for me to believe. I did some analysis on this with a few very critical assumptions (because I didn't want to spend all day on this), but it would appear that if you assume that an enemy that your leveling up can kill a player in an average of 10 seconds the entire time you are leveling this enemy up from level 1 to level 15, the enemy starts at level 1, and the enemy is gaining experience from you as if you were a level 19 from the start of the process. Then levelling up a character from 17 to 20 in presear by boosting the enemies level by letting it kill you would take 245.86 hours. Which is not unreasonable normally, but mind you, the player must intervene to kill the enemy at least once every 17min and 40secs or the process will begin taking longer. Due to the nature of this problem, it seems that it is possible, but doubtful that anyone has done this. Looking at some estimates to more practical times that don't assume the above would push the overall process into 500 hours most likely. I will provide the matlab code on request. -YinTzuSi

More H screens

 * http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10070635


 * http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2170144&postcount=50


 * http://img95.imageshack.us/my.php?image=anotherprooftif8.jpg (gusnana again)


 * http://img76.imageshack.us/my.php?image=defendertitlell8.jpg


 * http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j212/bobert_monduvia/defender.jpg


 * http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n70/mcsumo/defasc.jpg

&mdash; Skuld 10:47, 3 November 2006 (CST)


 * http://img78.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitled3um0.gif Even Gaile dosen't know it exists. Interesting. Alt F Four 18:46, 4 November 2006 (CST)


 * As I already posted in one of the GWG forum threads: What Gaile says about it is by no means binding or compelling proof. I don't understand why people still quote her in cases like this. Very often she doesn't have the latest information from the dev team. When she talks about something she always makes sure to add phrases like "in my opinion", "as far as I know", etc., to make clear that what she says isn't an official announcement. In some cases in the past she was plain wrong. Gaile is a community spokesperson (and she's good at that!), but not a game expert. Her job is to talk to the community, not to play the game, and it shows. In general, her knowledge of the game mechanics and content is less than that of an experienced veteran player. No offense to Gaile, she's doing a great job at PR, but don't overrate what she says about game content. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 02:57, 6 November 2006 (CST)

Lightbringer
Just noting, I've made 3 additions to the Lightbringer title today. These have been done by a guildy who has stayed in an area where it can be farmed for a continued amount of time - normally, rezoning after 100 makes you unable to continue and instead told to visit some guy in some town. I'm not a saboteur. Honest. I'm a noob using wiki, but my IGN is Almas Darksoul if for any reason you want evidence. Although I can't give you any, because my guildy is still in there farming.

I disagree with the notes in the Lightbringer and the Sunspear title track secitons that achieving the titles at the 15k level is not possible yet. Has there been official word for ANet on this ? I have seen none. The fact that the community has not yet figured out how to achieve this does not make it impossible. I suggest changing the wording to reflect that it is unknown how to achieve these ranks as we have not yet figured out how to receive further blessings. Gwm 12:20, 2 November 2006 (CST)

Added Holy Lightbringer at 50,000 points: http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/3731/22oj1.jpg --Celeborn 15:20, 5 November 2006 (CST)

Article says ''In return, when displayed, this title gives you 1 point of damage reduction and 5% extra damage against demons per rank in the title. Note that the damage reduction applies to all damage, not just physical.'' Could this damage reduction addition be interpreted to mean damage from all sources, or just demon-caused elemental and physical damage? --Mira 01:28, 6 November 2006 (CST)

its all dmg from abbadons demons(not dijinn)...(im pretty sure). do we have a max on the lightbringer title yet?

Skill Hunter really maxed?
It has been added that Elite Skill Hunter (290) is the max title. I was wondering if this is true and if so can it be verified. Also does it count towards Kind Of A Big Deal. Finally if this is all true then wouldn't that imply that there would be no more campaigns, since new campaigns would very likely include new elite skills. I'm not trying to question the credibility of whoever edited it, just wanted to know if this was true. -Zak
 * It has already been confirmed by Arena Net that there will be no new campaigns, only new "chapters" whatever that means. Not really sure on the title however. — Jyro X [[Image:Darkgrin.jpg|25px]] 20:02, 7 November 2006 (CST)
 * Huh? Where did ANet say that there won't be new "campaigns"?? Quote with link please, or STFU! ;) ;) ;) --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 02:07, 8 November 2006 (CST)

Well I feel campaign and chapter is synonymous for Guild Wars at least. Also, they are refered to as campaigns at the top of this page so I just went by that. -Zak
 * Even if the title would be maxed at 290, there could be more elites in the future. Take for example the drunkard title. Even thou you drink 10.000 minutes to get the title maxed, you can still drink. So why couldn't you get more elites even if the title is maxed? --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 01:30, 8 November 2006 (CST)
 * Agreed. It doesn't mean there won't be any more elites, it just means they think at 290, you've gotten enough to deserve the maxed title. As for no new campaigns, I'd need to see an official statement on that, as it wouldn't make sense at all. Arshay Duskbrow 04:48, 8 November 2006 (CST)

Just a note, I didn't say that there would be no more campaigns, I was saying that if skill hunter is truly maxed then that seems to suggest that. So no reason to attack. Also with regards to skill hunter being compared to drunken title. There are a finite number or elite skills so it doesn't make sense to me, that if new chapters or camapigns were added, that a new title would not exist. I mainly just wanted feedback, and to see if it was maxed. -Zak I started Hunting Elite - Skills Again, but since there are skills missing, i won't be able to "max" it... so, nobody CAN know... TheYang 16:13, 9 November 2006 (CST)


 * I have achieved it (the last two were added to the game 2 days ago, secretely) and it's not the max. Next is at 380. Judging by the treasure hunter title.. I'd say the next level is Grandmaster Skill Hunter at 470. --Karlos 03:07, 11 November 2006 (CST)


 * If Karlos is right (can't confirm yet, can you post a screen shot Karlos?), we can't never max it out.. because 290 where "the max title" when faction was realased.. and when some clues or the World Preview of NightFall came, we saw that we would be able to capture 110 Elite Skills.. meaning that we can get 290. Now.. NightFall is out.. and.. the next one is at 380.. meaning that we are, again, unable to max it.. and that, if there is a step at 470, we must wait two more campaings to max it.. this won't help me spare gold and get "People Know Me". :( Corsaire 01:46, 13 November 2006 (CST)