User talk:PanSola

Archives

 * Past mistakes are moved into the /MistakeArchive
 * Other closed issues are moved to /Archive, /Archive2, /Archive3, /Archive4

Archiving Stabber's talk page..
Why? --Karlos 01:32, 1 July 2006 (CDT)


 * It is my hope, that by archiving the conversations which are essentially dead (though matters not concluded), that it will decrease the likelihood of people perform thread-necromancy or even drama-necromancy. The original drama was already blown up way out of proportions to a sickening magnitude, I do not wish to furthur encourage anyone keeping the fires burning.  By all means it's fine to continue to figure out what our policy on Sockpuppetry should be, and once that's figured out depending on the policy we may wish to rigorously look into whether Stabber should be found guilty of any accusions against him/her; but Stabber's talk page should not degenerate into free-for-all commentary on online stalking, sockpuppetry, and other dramas on the internet.  - 05:33, 1 July 2006 (CDT)


 * The talk page however contained evidence very pertinent to the discussion. In addition, the added links were not vandalism, so you're editing other user talk pages against the policy you yourself were advocating. Preventing thread-necromancy (in and of itself) is not exactly an acceptable reason (so what if the thread is resurrected?) but even if that is the case, the necromancer can just go edit the talk on Community Portal and/or the Sock puppetry page.
 * I am more interested in precedent and policy. You were the one who was telling me I have no business trying to force a talk page on Deldda, now you're editing Stabber's talk page. What gives? --Karlos 08:27, 1 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I think archiving it was a good idea, but to prevent this talk Pan should probably have told Karlos beforehand. I was so sure Karlos will comment when I saw the archiving and the update notes. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 08:50, 1 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Perhaps it conflicts/contradicts/differs with the exact wording I have conveyed before, but I still believe I have no right to force an edit on Stabber's user talk page against her/his wishes. My edit summary explicitly allowed Stabber to revert the changes I made, thus fully respecting Stabber's soverignty over Stabber's user talk page.  If Stabber ever logs in and reverts it, that's fine by me and I fully respect that, I won't be offended or decide to ban Stabber.  There is sufficient reason to consider Stabber's departure this time to be different from the previous times, and that even if the user still uses/contributes to GuildWiki the chances that the user will ever log in as Stabber again is slim.  My archiving of the talk page was intended to manage the page in the User's absence (as in not logging in), and again the user may revert it as s/he sees fit.
 * If the added links were vandalism, I would've simply reverted them without archiving them.
 * I'm not trying to prevent necromancy, but trying to discourage unnecessary ones. If the issues are important enough, the archiving would not have prevented the issues from being resurrected.  However, keeping certain things on the main talk page will simply encourage people to drag on a drama that has been a dead horse for quite a while.  I wouldn't actually mind those links posted on the Sockpuppet talk page at all.  In fact, part of what annoyed me was that I think it really belonged TO the sockpuppetry talk page or community portal page (assuming it would be neutral commentary on Online Stalking, Sockpuppetry, or Online Drama in general; instead of directed at the incident with Stabber) as opposed to belonging  to Stabber's talk page.  Thus if the archiving of the Stabber's talk page encourage future stuff like the posting of those links to go to Sockpuppetry's talk page, then that is an extremely satisfactory result to me.
 * I did not delete the talk page, I did not simply blank it. I archived it.  If we ever need to examine the previously posted evidences again, it's not much of an issue to locate them.  They are in the talk page's history AND in the archive. - 21:10, 1 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Yes, so you are basically contradicting yourself. You're saying: "I am doing this change, but I am absolutely NOT forcing it on Stabber's talk page, she can revert it if she likes, she is absolutely free. Although I am fairly certain she is reading this and cannot possibly login with her Stabber username to agree/disagree with it."
 * That's a pretty convoluted logic. I'd think if a user left (and left his user page and talk page in a certain state), you cannot honestly say "I am doing an edit that they are free to remove." Stabber chose to leave her user page (and talk page) in a certain state. I don't understand how you can do this and justify your earlier policy. This still seems like an obvious inconsistency to me. Are we allowing a "greater good" clause in that "admins shall not edit user pages" law you proposed or what? You know Stabber is not gonna login as Stabber just to correct you on that edit if she didn't like it. --Karlos 23:58, 2 July 2006 (CDT)


 * 1. I did not propose a law. The statements I made (and I believe it was not verbatim "admins shall not edit user pages") were textual reflections of a certain principle I believe in, and depending which statement you decide to quote (though you never made any direct quotes), it may unfortunately contain semantic conflicts with my actions on Stabber's talk page.  Rereading everything I can find on the previous subject, the only direct thing I found (and I could've missed some/many, so please do point them out) where I acted against what I wrote previously is the quote that "I don't think [name] has a right to create articles under another user's namespace", which conflicted with my creation of archive 3.  This discrepency could have been prevented (and can still be resolved) by putting the archived discussions into archive 2 instead of having them in archive 3.  However it is my belief from what you have written above that whether things went into an existing archive or in a new archive I created is nowhere near the center of your issue (if you even care at all).


 * 2. Again, I believe I never proposed a "admins shall not edit user pages" law. The specific action I was against was about users getting banned if they revert an admin's edit on their own user page.  I tried deriving a general pricinple and put it in words and have obviously failed to keep the semantics and the spirit of the principle in sync.  It would be helpful to the discussion to directly quote my words when pointing out any contradictions with my actions.


 * 3. The fairly certain is not about Stabber still reading it, but about her not going to edit it if she is still reading it (of which I am not certain one way or the other). And the part about she "cannot possibly log in with her Stabber username" is your assumption of what I meant, possibly derived from the anon claim that she no longer has the password, whereas I arrived at the concusion of "slim chance of logging in as Stabber" from the circumstances of the persona's departure, which did not depend on her losing the password.  At least I find there to be a difference between "cannot possibly" (probablity = 0) vs "slim chance" (low but non-zero probablity).  If the two mean the same thing to you (which I don't know one way or the other), well, here's the clarification.


 * I am saying, that I believe there is a low probablity that the Stabber persona will ever return to guildwiki. I am making one edit for management purposes.  And in the (what I judge to be unlikely) case of the Stabber persona ever returning and disagrees with the edit, the Stabber persona may revert it. I can agree that Stabber chose to leave her user page in a certian state (and I didn't touch her user page), but I disagree that Stabber chose to leave her user talk page in a certain state that is meant to never get archived even if it keeps growing and growing.  I'm not making the edit because I think Stabber won't come in to challenge me.  I'm making the edit because I want to discourage certain unnecessary stuff that don't belong there from going there, possibly taking advantage of Stabber's absense, before things get out of hand. - 00:10, 5 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I find your analysis of your actions vs your words bordering on mockery of my request. I also find your archiving of Stabber's page "before things get out of hand" unnecessary (how were they getting out of hand) and (quite frankly) clearly biased. However, I have no desire to quarrel over this. I would have hoped for more honest examination of policies and actions rather than playing with semantics and words. --Karlos 06:21, 6 July 2006 (CDT)


 * The conscious intention was not to mock, to quarrel, or to deceive, though being the involved party it is hard to rule out the existence of undetected subconscious bias and subjectivity. It is also unfortunate that you decided to judge me by what you thought I said, instead of quoting (or re-examining) what I actually wrote.  We have had similar discourse before, on less important issues (non-policy related) with our roles reversed, and you had solemnly objected to me putting words into your mouth (due to my unintentional misinterpretation of your words), and I have to go back to re-examining your prior exact quotes to puzzle out what exactly you have meant (because despite my best efforts I could not obtain furthur explaination/elaboration) in order to continue any meaningful discussion.  Thus I find your (what I preceived to be) distaste for semantics and words rather ironic (and to a degree, frustrating), when those things are the very roots that lead to misunderstanding and misinterpretations.
 * I'm fine with anyone disagreeing and/or discussing the necessity (or lack of) of my recent actions. However, for any accusations of inconsistency, self-contradiction, or (to put it more severely) hyprocricy, I kindly request direct quotes of things I actually wrote, as opposed to an interpretation of what you think I was trying to say.  If you don't want my current view on what I did previously, quote what what I originally said exactly instead of giving me your current view of what I did previously. - 07:37, 6 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Ok, let's start with this: Explain how creating a sub-folder in Stabber's user space, without her permission (and knowing that she most likely will not be able to give or deny you permission, explain how that is different from me creating a subsection in Deldda's talk page which you complained to:
 * At one point I deleted User:Deldda Kcarc/Track record, partly to stop a revert war that I find ridiculous, and partly because I don't think Karlos has a right to create articles under another user's namespace.
 * If you respond that "Well, I could have moved them to Archive 2 instead of 3" then you are telling me that the above objection was a joke. That you would not have minded me editing Deldda's own user page and putting the talk there, it was just creating a new page that bothered you. Was I wrong to understand that you opposed outside editing of a user page, especially unapproved edits? --Karlos 21:36, 6 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I do not mind you editing Deldda's user talk page and put back what he removed from his talk page (or add whatever else), but I do oppose you banning him for re-removing what you put on his talk page. So, assuming we are talking about things under the User talk page namespace, indeed the editing does not bother me, only creating new pages and banning for his revertion bother me.  And if you simply re-reverted his re-removal, without banning him, I would be processing it as a revert war and find both of you at fault for the revert war (though in the end favoring his edit over yours because it is his user talk page).  If you are talking about putting stuff on his user page instead of user talk page, then I think my position is against it, though I don't think (my memory could be wrong though) it is covered by any of my previous statements on related issues.
 * Does that make my objection a joke? Due to inevitable unconscious bias (being an involved party and all), I am unable to tell, but I do not consciously intend it to be a joke. - 23:20, 6 July 2006 (CDT)


 * You've somehow managed to avoid commenting on the bolded part up there, which cannot (in any usage of english that I know) mean that you oppose my banning of Deldda. As I read it, you opposed my creating pages in his user space. Can you address that remark in bold in conjuction with your archiving of Stabber's talk page? Your action and those bolded words up there seem to contradict each other and yes, do paint you in a rather hypocritical tone. --Karlos 02:10, 7 July 2006 (CDT)


 * So here's another misunderstanding. From what you wrote immediately above, it seems that you preceived that the bolded part is supposed to relate to my opposition of your banning of Deldda.  That preception is incorrect and I apologize if I was the cause of that mispreception (though I am not actively aware of how I caused it, if I am the cause) .  I have stated elsewhere, that:


 * My opposition of banning Deldda is because I find YOUR justification of banning him (revert of what you considered to be an adiministrative edit) lacking. Thus, my opposition of banning of Deldda is not directly related to the quotes marked in bold, and the bolded quote was never intended to be a direct explaination/example of my opposition of banning of Deldda, which is the reason I did not comment upon it with respect to my opposition to the banning of Deldda.  But otherwise, I have already made my comments with respected to that bolded quote before you even quoted me:


 * Yes they do contradict, and I already brought up and admitted to and even commented upon the bolded part before you even quoted me on that. And I have proposed what I can do to remedy my mistake aka inconsistent action.  Later you quoted what I have already brought up and admitted and proposed remidy for, and discussed what my proposed remedies mean from your point of view and asked me if your understanding of my position is correct, and I answered your question.  I'm still not sure what is missing that I should have covered.  If it helps, I'll requote myself one more time: " where I acted against what I wrote previously is the quote that "I don't think [name] has a right to create articles under another user's namespace", which conflicted with my creation of archive 3. This discrepency could have been prevented (and can still be resolved) by putting the archived discussions into archive 2 instead of having them in archive 3." and "indeed the editing does not bother me, only creating new pages and banning for his revertion bother me".  So yes, the creation of archive 3 is inconsistent and bothers me.  If you care enough about it I'll go resolve it and move it into archive 2 and delete archive 3.  But if you have as much issue with me putting the thing in archive 2 just as much as me putting the thing into archive 3 (which is what I felt back then though uncertain, and still what I feel now though uncertain), then I'm not going to bother moving it until we sort things out.  THere's no point in a particular remedy if you oppose it as strongly as you oppose the original issue (again I suspect, but do not know for certain, if you opposse the remedy as much as the solution). - 03:22, 7 July 2006 (CDT)

BTW, if that is the only self-contradiction you can come up against me, and you do not oppose the remedy, then I am going to do it. So if you have any other issues, bring them out now. - 03:42, 7 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Again, instead of pasting jumbled boxes that copy text from the discussion above it. Can you please answer this simple question: Your complaint was that I "created" an article in Deldda's user space, not that I was editing Deldda's user space? You are saying that those two actions are different and that you find creating inexcusable but editing excusable? Am I correct in this understanding? --Karlos 04:55, 7 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Question 1, half yes half no. Yes, my complaint was that you created an article in Deldda's user space.  However, I would have also complained about you editing an article in Deldda's user space, except in this particular incident the article is the one you created anyways, so my complaint over its creation takes precedence and makes the complaint over editing it completely irrevalent.  What I stated explicitly previously about what I am not complaining, is the editing of Deldda's user talk page/space (which is different from the user page/space).
 * Question 2, yes, I find the action of editing and creating to be different. In the context of the user space, I actually find both actions to be inappropriate (inexcusable is too strong a word for me, and I hope I never actually used that specific word regarding this specific situation in previous discussions.  If I have, I apologize).
 * Now, because I honestly believe User space and User talk space should be treated separately, if I wanted to be sly about it, I could've argued that creating articles in the user talk space is ok while creating articles in the user space to be not ok, which would excuse my prior action and condamn your prior action. However, I didn't want to be sly about it.  I really should not have created archive 3 and should've instead to put things directly into archive 2.  I do think the difference between adding stuff in archive 2 and creating an archive 3 to be very minor in practice, but when held against a standard of consistency with what my principles are, one action is appropriate and the other is not.
 * Unfortunately, because I was not paying attention to semantics close enough previously, when I condamned my own action of creating archive 3 as being inconsistent with my words, I was actually wrong. I have not previously expressively condamned the action of creating articles under the user talk space, but only that under the user space.  Creating of archive 3 is incosistent with the principle I was trying to convey, but it actually did not conflict with the words.  I apologize for not being rigorous in separating the issue of user space and user talk space in prior discussions.  At the end of the day though, being incosistent with the principle (which is what I have done) is worse than being inconsistent with the words (which is what I previously accused myself of but turned out to be wrong).


 * To resummarize my position in bullet list form:
 * Yes, my complaint was that you created an article in Deldda's user space.
 * I find editing the user page/space to be (in general) not appropriate, except when adding/removing the ban template. (this bullet point is something new that I have not stated in previous discussion) There might actually be other exceptions, not just the ban template, but none come to my mind right now.
 * I find the creation of article under the user space to be not appropriate.
 * I find editing the user talk page/space, which you have been doing this entire time while conversing with me, to be ok, including re-adding of anything that was previously removed by the user from the user talk space. This also include the potential action of archiving Stabber's stuff into the existing archive 2, an action which I did not take.
 * I also find the creation of article under the user talk space (which is what I have done), to be not appropriate. (In earlier discussions I have errornously lumped this bullet point with the third bullet point, which was a mistake).
 * I find that I should have, instead of creating an archive 3, simply put the archived material into archive 2.
 * I find that banning a user based on the fact that a user reverted an admin's edit (which was perceived by the admin to be an administrative edit but otherwise not specifically marked as such) under the user's user space/user talk space to be not sufficiently justified. This is the basis of my objection against your ban against Deldda.
 * Aside from the second and fifth bullet point, all I am doing is restating what I have stated in previous discussions. Hopefully the different wording and change of semantics will help you understand what you couldn't figure out before.
 * Also, the above regarding editing of user page and user talk page assume that vandalism and foul offensive material are not included (I assume it is obvious, but still including this line for rigor/explicitness). Vandalism and offensive material should of course be judged different, and should be a different topic of discussion alltogether.
 * If there is any part of your question that I have not addressed yet, I apologize, and please point it out. - 07:30, 7 July 2006 (CDT)


 * So, now the issue is summarized as: "Editing another user's talk page is fine, CREATING a page in a user's talk page is not fine." I still find your answer and your manuevers quite evasive and inconsistent. We all know (or at least I thought we did) that you can't go about "editing user pages" in the way yor edited Stabber's. Are you saying I have any right to go re-organize Skuld's talk page (in any shape, way or form) and call that "editing" just like we do when we "talk" to Skuld? I would think that I don't. I would like to think that if I edited your talk page and shuffled talk around between archives and moved stuff from mistakes to archive1, that someone, somewhere would tell me "What the heck are you doing?" and not treat it the same as this entry.
 * I find it hard to believe that you honestly classify all editing of user talk pages as being the same. I am actually quite certain that you agree that the kind of edit you did to Stabber's page would not be allowed to any other's (Skuld's or Rainith's or Tetris's) talk page without their permission. In fact, the only "permissible" edit to a user's talk page (outside of "talking") is perhaps in the case of newbies who put their user page in their talk page or vice versa.
 * So, to smush "editing and shuffling and re-organizing" a talk page with "talking" in a talk page is an obfuscation of the truth. Especially when the shuffling is not simply an honest "oh, you filed this under the wrong archive" but an intended hiding of discussions from users' eyes.
 * Which brings me to the main point. You archived Stabber's talk page "despite" of her. She was there, she saw what was on her talk page, she edited her own user page twice after that whole fiasco. And yet she chose to leave her talk page as is (even though she cleared it many times before). Stabber is not a newbie who needs assistance keeping her talk page organized. This is the same as you archiving stuff from my talk page or Skuld's without our permission. Even if the talk is 20 years old and the added comment provides no benefit, it's -quite frankly- outside of your authority to edit my talk page for me and remove a discussion that you deem "too old" and put it in one of my archives proclaiming it was for the best.
 * Finally, how is it for the best that the discussion be burried? For who's best? And how was the addition of that useless comment harmful?
 * I believe (feel free to defend yourself and correct me) that you did it to defend Stabber. And while that is a noble goal, I believe it was outside of your authority, I believe it was inconsistent with your earlier stated positions and I believe most importantly, that we as admins should NOT be hiding discussions and "protecting" users we "like" from scrutiny.
 * If the comment added was a name calling of Stabber or vandalism, or if you had simply reverted the guy's edit for irrelevance or because the user has left, I would not be having this discussion. But you were (in my opinion) clearly protecting User Stabber from the consequences of his/her actions and the scrutiny of others (deserved or not).
 * I will be reverting your archiving of that talk page in the next few days pending a final argument from you that perhaps shows how the edit was within what's best for the wiki and not play on some wording of "I think editing a user's talk page is all the same but different therefore I am not doing anything wrong, technically, almost, I think." I know you are a fellow admin, but the edit in this case, breaks rules, sets bad precedents and seems fairly biased (to me). --Karlos 00:06, 12 July 2006 (CDT)

Sig-Trick
nicely done with your sig-trick, you've inspired me! Alexanderpas Talk 13:56, 1 July 2006 (CDT)

Bye
Thanks, now that there are all these ruls I'm not using my account anymore, this is the last time you will ever hear from me
 * Huh, for someone who's not using an account anymore, you sure are making a hell lot of edits on your own user page. - 00:59, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

Warlord article
I had marked the article Warlord for deletion, as it's not relevant in-game. The tag was removed by User:Skinny Boy with no explaination given. Rather than re-revert, I added my comments to the articles talk page, and commented on Skinny Boy's talk page that my opinion was that such an article belonged in his user space, but he just deleted my commented from his talk page as well. I really can't do more without getting into an edit-war, so I decided to hand it off to you for further review. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 00:50, 3 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I deleted it before you posted this d-: - 00:51, 3 July 2006 (CDT)
 * At first I thought I was getting hexed by slow typing frequently; now I think it's an environmental effect and I just can't remove the effect :-) --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 00:53, 3 July 2006 (CDT)

Mesmer Skill List
I believe that when the Mesmer Skill list was converted to use includes, someone had mentioned monitoring server load changes from it. Was that you? I couldn't recall. I've tried periodically over the last two weeks, and have found that the load times of the article have grown un-usably long for me. I can still open the other skill listing pages; but the Mesmer one takes so long to open, that it's effectively unusable for me (we're talking 5+minutes).

Can the list be converted back to a table? My belief is that would resolve the load times; but as I cannot access the page, I can't even make the change myself. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 10:53, 5 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Actually; after thinking about it, never mind for now. I'll try the listings for each profession, time them, and post it as a bug.  I had been assuming it was related to the use of inclusions, but I have no confirmation of that being the cause.  Perhaps if Gravewit takes a look, he may spot some secondary cause. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 11:29, 5 July 2006 (CDT)

Random Arenas and Team Arenas
I was doing the Location boxes for those areas, and I'm not sure what kind of area they should be categorized under, since they can't be really considered "Arenas", since the article for "Arenas" talks of the different areas in which you'll be sent to via those locations. --Rapta 18:37, 5 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I think I would call them Arenas regardless, for now at least. - 18:47, 5 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Gotcha. --Rapta 18:49, 5 July 2006 (CDT)

Mischevious redirects
Special:BrokenRedirects I can't make these go away, says you've already deleted them :/ Don't know if its a caching problem or because I don't have the fonts, see if you can do anything &mdash; Skuld  02:25, 6 July 2006 (CDT)
 * It's an issue with auto-capitalization. Because the unicode characters got all messed up and broken up inside the database (this happened at the beginning of the year or something), inside the database the article is essentially soemthing like "GuildWiki:asdf", and any attempt to do anything to it from the MediaWiki interface leads to the manipulation of "GuildWIki:Asdf", which doesn't actually exist.  We'll need to either make MediaWiki fully case-sensative so that GuildWiki:Asdf and GuildWiki:asdf are treated as diff articles, or go into the database directly and remove database entries. - 05:05, 6 July 2006 (CDT)

Dropped the ball there..
pfff... change it to PanFiction!! not FanFaction!! --Jamie  08:13, 6 July 2006 (CDT)

Contributions text
See here, looks like that should be linking to the page. I think it was you who changed it :) &mdash; Skuld  02:05, 7 July 2006 (CDT)
 * It's still usable, and make the Recentchanges have a link to the user contributions. Fixing it for the block log will cause there not to be a link to user contributions in the Recentchanges.  Thus I find this to be the lesser evil.  Feel free to experiment the contributions text and banning SolaPan for 2 hour durations as experiment (Rechange Changes message are generated on ban, and do not auto-update when you change the MediaWiki interface, so you have to reban SolaPan to see the effect on Recentchanges every time you change the MediaWiki interface). - 03:33, 7 July 2006 (CDT)

Special:Recentchanges notice
Hey Pan, I was thinking of asking either you are Skuld this. I noticed on Wikipedia the header informaation on Wikipedia:Special:Recentchanges has some different text on there. I know a lot of new editors are missing vital info like marking all posts as minor to help filter out the anons and non anons. I was thinking of writing a guide to further the basic editting guide we have. Well anyways, my point is if we were to do this, could you change the header on our Recent changes page to link to this? make it big and bold so it is noticable to people. This kind of thing doesn't belong on the main page, so I was thinking Recent changes is the best place. --Jamie  08:34, 10 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I never understood why Wikipedia has those things in Recentchanges... Shouldn't notices like that go elsewhere? - 08:43, 10 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Well I am not sure where editors look, but I doubt it would be in help... Recentchanges seems like the best place to catch the aspiring editor that doesn't quite have a full grasp for the ins and outs of the wiki. --Jamie [[Image:Jamie.jpg|24px|(Talk Page)]] 08:48, 10 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Fancy drafting something out? I'll look for the mediawiki page &mdash; Skuld  08:59, 10 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Well on the practical side of editing we need the following:
 * Marking minor edits and showing the user where to find the option to mark all edits as minor in preferences
 * But on the less practical but more requested front, how to make a custom signature.
 * More stuff can be added when people think of stuff, but we do need to address the issue of minor edits now and underlining signing of posts. --Jamie [[Image:Jamie.jpg|24px|(Talk Page)]] 09:04, 10 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Yeh, i'd like an always use edit summary policy too (MediaWiki:Recentchangestext) &mdash; Skuld  09:06, 10 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I disagree with the registered users should always mark as minor. I think if they make more than a simple edit that they should leave the minor edit box unchecked. Only if an edit will not need review should the minor box be checked. I see no reason for contributers to mark everything as minor to find anon edits easier. I also dont think we need a policy for edit summarys, maybe a guideline or a how-to, but policy would require action taken against someone who does not follow it. The how-to make a custom signature is already in Sign your comments.--Draygo Korvan (Yap) 09:39, 10 July 2006 (CDT)
 * My opinnion is the same as Draygos. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 13:53, 10 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Have a look at those articles in the GuildWiki space, how many times have they been viewed? Sign your comments has just under 250 views as of writing whereas here, PanSola's talk page has over 5000. Clearly they're not being used because nobody is looking at them, many are not linked to from anywhere useful and some are not categorised, there's no way of finding them.


 * For ages I've had some helpful tips on my user page but fairly recently I improved it so it's basically a How to Edit the GuildWiki Guide. If you want to use it as a basis for a new guide on how to get into GuildWiki editing, you're welcome to, taking a queue from Rainith, check out User:Xasxas256/Test (it's just the help guide bit from my talk page). You're welcome to butcher it however you like to turn it into something that we can direct new users to as a one stop shop on how to edit this site and have a link to it somewhere prominent (ie the Main Page, Recentchanges etc.) --Xasxas256 22:06, 10 July 2006 (CDT)


 * We need a link to these things on either the navigation or recentchanges. that space on recentchanges is valuable space though. We need to utilize it. --Jamie [[Image:Jamie.jpg|24px|(Talk Page)]] 01:57, 11 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Subtly linking to a few helpful pages would be fine, but please, please, don't put actual how-to information on the Recent Changes page itself! &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 02:05, 11 July 2006 (CDT) )
 * The problem with Sign your comments was that it wasnt linked to from any relevent pages. I just fixed that issue and hopefully new users will be able to find it more easily. Previously It was only reachable by going through an unsigned link. --Draygo Korvan (Yap) 12:16, 11 July 2006 (CDT)

Maybe consider modifying this: MediaWiki:Copyrightwarning. While technically it's copyright warning, it appears exactly when edits occure. - 02:27, 11 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Instead of the copyright message, I think that MediaWiki:Edittools would be a better location. From what I can see, it's intended to be used for this type of content.  The information would show immediately below the "Save page" button.
 * For reference, you can see the content placed into that space on Wikipedia. They use it mainly for insertion of various symbols and only list a link to policies and guideline for editing info on the last line, so we would probably have different priorities of what we include and in what order.  But that example does give the idea, and editing Wikipedia:Sandbox can demonstrate how it displays on an edit page. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 12:02, 11 July 2006 (CDT)
 * FYI: To propose a draft, I started by copying Wikipedia's article from Wikipedia:MediaWiki:Edittools into my sandbox at User:Barek/Sandbox. I was then going to remove most of the character inserts, just leaving the one for the signature and possibly some tags like  {{subst: ,  [[Category: ,  #Redirect , and maybe some templates like  {{1/4}} ,  {{1/2}} , and  {{3/4}} .
 * However, it appears that the tags   are not recognized on GuildWiki.  Any ideas on the problem?  I'm guessing that would be a Gravewit issue to add in some module or add-on, but a quick search hasn't turned up anything to point him towards as yet.
 * The block will still work for adding links to help documents, but I was hoping for a couple character insert items to simplify edits. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 14:37, 11 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Update: Found it in an archived discussion: Wikipedia:MediaWiki_talk:Edittools/Archive_02. Looks like a lot of effort; no point pursuing with Gravewit yet, need to first see if it's something the GuildWiki community decides it even wants to have available. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 14:45, 11 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I found this, might help &mdash; Skuld  14:49, 11 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Just wondering; should this thread be moved to GuildWiki_talk:Community_Portal?
 * FYI: I inserted some proposed content in MediaWiki talk:Edittools that doesn't use the tags  , as those are not currently working on GuildWiki.  --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 10:07, 12 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Feel free to move it whereever you think makes sense. Ideally it'd be soemthing more specific than Community Portal, but I can't htink of alternatives either. - 10:13, 12 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Ok, most new users are offered tips on their talk pages about using the preview button before the save button, and half still do not follow the advice. Sign your comments is collecting cobwebs and regular users are still taking their time to add the unsigned template. I don't see this making very much of an impact either. As to regular users making everything minor, I agree with Draygo Korvan way up there. If I create a new article I feel no need for it to be minor, because a new article is hardly a minor change. Either way, it is going to be up to the contributor whether they want to check that little box or not. -Gares 10:32, 12 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm hoping that placing the information directly on the edit screen will help the lack of sigs, etc. which is why I proposed some content for MediaWiki:Edittools on its talk page. I don't see anything ever eliminating the problem, but increasing visibility can help.  As for minor edits, that's a judgement call on the part of each editor.  For me, I have minor edits turned on by default, and usually only remove it when I feel as edit is more than a minor cleanup (although, I'll admit that I sometimes forget to remove it, just as others forget to add it).  I forgot to add a tip about using "Show preview" on the edit tools proposal, I'll add that now. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 10:50, 12 July 2006 (CDT)

Mission Briefings
Shouldn't those go with the NPC article and not the location articles? --Rainith 11:17, 11 July 2006 (CDT)
 * We put quest dialugues with quests and not NPCs, I fully feel the same way for Missions. Besides, some NPCs brief multiple missions and it'll result in major clutter in the NPC articles. - 19:40, 11 July 2006 (CDT)
 * In that case shouldn't it go on the (Mission) page, not the (Location) page, otherwise the locations would be full of the quest dialogues. --Rainith 20:43, 11 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I would agree the briefing would be more useful (And more sought) in the mission article. --Karlos 00:27, 12 July 2006 (CDT)


 * then how aoubht the henchmen availability and levels? how about how to access the mission?  Should we simply merge the mission outpost articles with the mission objective/walkthrough articles?  I am actually fine with the mission location article being filled with dialogue (there's only one briefing per mission location anyways (er, maybe two versions depends on character campaign), which makes it different from the NPC scenario), because it is the mission location.  I am also not opposed to merging the two. - 00:30, 12 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Merging the two is a different topic, and one that I would be against. Just a simple issue of separating the how to from the basic town info. The mission dialog is part of the how to, that's why I am in favor of moving it to the mission walkthrough article. --Karlos 04:36, 12 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I see the mission briefing as more relavent to the lore and background, and is only read by the same people who reads those outpost descriptions on the world map. It does provides a little insight into what you will see in the mission, but in general the bullet point mission objectives are more clear, concise, and useful.  In other words, for people who hate (or is bored by) the PvE story and simply want to do the mission, there is no reason for them to read the briefings.  I would argue henchmen information to be more relavent in terms of "how-to" info.  Should henchie info be duplicated in both the mission location article and the mission walkthrough article? - 05:55, 12 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Your comment does not seem to include missions in Cantha. Challenge missions and competitive missions have very important instructions on how to win the mission. --Karlos 06:06, 12 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I see... I'll take a look at Dragon's Throat, sleep on it, and get back to you. - 06:09, 12 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Alliance Battles too. --Karlos 17:46, 12 July 2006 (CDT)

Traps bugged?
I noticed you changing a lot of trap skills to say weird things. Is this a bug introduced in the new update? &mdash; 130.58 (talk) ( 13:30, 14 July 2006 (CDT) )
 * Most likely an old problem that has never been addressed, considering Dust Trap was bugged for ages. - 13:33, 14 July 2006 (CDT)

Block on User:66.218.226.213
I was just wondering if it was really necessary to block this guy? After looking through his edits it seems to me he was only correcting his previous posts, and the "Auron Bushi" seems to be a signature added before his own posts. &mdash; Galil  10:21, 16 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I figured that out and unblocked him before you note. I only noticed he's editing his prior post until later.  It was all very confusiong, I apologize. - 10:22, 16 July 2006 (CDT)


 * No problem. Mistakes are humane. ;) &mdash; Galil  10:23, 16 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Crap, I wanted to be an inhumane admin!!! - 10:25, 16 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Sorry, I think Karlos and I are fighting over that one. :P  --Rainith 18:19, 16 July 2006 (CDT)

Arborstone Blood Drinkers
I noticed you added Blood Drinker as a boss in the Arborstone (Explorable) article. Unfortunately that goes to the skill, not the monster (which is Blood Drinker (Monster)), and I was unaware there was a boss with the same name, so that would probably best go under Blood Drinker (Boss). --Rainith 18:19, 16 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Blah actually it's not a boss. It looked red to be but it's a necro and it didn't give me moral boost. - 18:30, 16 July 2006 (CDT)

of candy cane blades and edit conflicts
use the preview button! 3 edit conflicts in a row attempting to add one line on my own user talk ;p --Honorable Sarah  17:51, 17 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I wasn't cocrecting typos. Additional ideas came to me after I saved the prev version, so preview wouldn't really work. d-: - 17:56, 17 July 2006 (CDT)

Arborstone mission
Have you done that? If you want some help I'll do it as soon as I stop getting err013 and it will let me on &mdash; Skuld  17:34, 19 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I want some help *skipping* the mission by heading straight for Altrumm Ruins (Location), for the sake of proof of concept. If the concept is proven, that would be the absolute way to prevent wasting factions (too late for my account anyways).  For the mission itself, my mesmer got through with henchies, and I'm not in a hurry with my monk or warrior d-: - 17:39, 19 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Shame :p This err 013 is bugging me, says try in a few mins on all 12 chars ~_~ &mdash; Skuld  17:41, 19 July 2006 (CDT)

Shield Guardian icon
Hey Pan, the FSK has this icon wrong. Someone at some point found some icons we were missing on one of the official Asian GW sites. As I don't know any Chinese/Japanese/Korean (or any Asian language for that matter) I'm having no luck looking for an official replacement for this icon. Any chance you could poke around and see if you can find it? --Rainith 02:09, 25 July 2006 (CDT)


 * The Factions FSK has actually been released silently. I took a look, and found MANY icons to be overly huge in file size -- essentially JPG minus the JPG compression.  If we are to use the new FSK icons, I would suggest we edit them to save them in compressed format. - 09:38, 25 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Um, you mean released on the US site? If so, then yes, those are what we are using and where the problem is.  They mixed up the icon for Shield Guardian and instead put in the icon for Stonesoul Strike.  IIRC someone found the icons for Healing Signet and SoC on one of the Asian sites, but as I said, I had no luck poking around those sites as, unfortunately, I can't understand the languages.  --Rainith 11:05, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Oh opps, I didn't know we are already using the FSK from the US site. - 18:02, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Ok, the Taiwanese website used a screenshot icon for Shield Guardian, just like what we are doing. The Japanese website uses Stonesoul Strike's icon just like what is provided in the FSK.  I don't read Korean so you'll have as much luck with it as I do.  I guess all the websites got the same set of FSK though. - 18:07, 25 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Darn. Ok, thanks for looking, I'll put together an email and send it off to Gaile, maybe she'll get them to fix it.  --Rainith 20:01, 25 July 2006 (CDT)

Sub-category sort key method
Hi! Can you please check this and comment? Thanks. -- 04:26, 26 July 2006 (CDT)

Skill Box templates
help! i'm drowning in wikicode! attempting to write User:Honorable Sarah/IAS skills quick reference based on your templates from Interrupt skills quick reference but template:skill box ias doesn't exist and i can't figure out A) where to put the data on the skill templates and b) how to make the template:skill box ias read it properly. save me!--Honorable Sarah 12:33, 26 July 2006 (CDT)
 * You need to specify the ias vis the skill's own template, such as Template:Berserker Stance. The only thing that gets passed from the quick reference to the template is teh notes (which, if you have no other use for it, can be used to pass the ias).


 * In summary, the quick reference page calls individual skill templates (such as Template:Berserker Stance), passing the variables as "ias" and  as whatever you put in for the notes, then Template:Berserker Stance calls Template:skill box ias (because  = "ias"), passing in all the data stored in the skill template, including the notes that came from quick reference. - 12:57, 26 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I already made a mockup at Template talk:Skill box ias for Sarah. I guess the table could look a little prettier.  --68.142.14.19 13:08, 26 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Incidentally, shouldn't the "notes" be linked to the particular type of QR the skill is used in? In the case where a skill ends up in two different references, it might have different notes for each.  --68.142.14.19 13:10, 26 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Notes should always be passed in from the quick reference page that calls the skill template, so it's not an issue. - 15:27, 26 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Would you prefer the IAS value and duration go in the QR page then instead of the skill template? Since that's how I made my example and where Sarah ended up putting the data.  --68.142.14.19 21:39, 26 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I think IAS value can go in the skill template. However, a skill may have multipe effects with different durations, so it's best to put duration as note. - 21:59, 26 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I named the field iasdur in the template. Such a conflict is why I thought to name the notes iasnotes, heh.  --68.142.14.19 22:01, 26 July 2006 (CDT)

Dwayna is a nice lady
Okay, I've converted all the links that were relevant, except for talk pages. Mind checking my work and, if you agree it is accurat, please remove the disambig and instate Avatar of Dwayna (Skill) as Avatar of Dwayna? I'd do it myself, but I think that might come across as a little arrogant, so I'll leave the decision up to you. :) -- Bishop [ rap|con ] 23:36, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

Done for Avatar of Grenth as well (that one had only a few links before the update). -- Bishop [ rap|con ] 23:46, 29 July 2006 (CDT)

ChinaJoy report on 17173.com
Hey mate, could you browse around the 17173.com website a bit more for their report of the ChinaJoy expo? They may have some previously unpublished info on Nightfall, along with this video. See Talk:Guild Wars Nightfall. Thanks! -- 02:16, 31 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Hehe I've already read their site. I hate simplified Chinese characters though, they give me a headache (just imagine if every phrase in English turn into acronynms and every word in English that has 4 or more letters get replaced by abbreviations, using a non-systematic method of making abbreviations).  Not much is new really, it's supposedly going to be more focued on Roleplaying. - 02:35, 31 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Do they say anything about whether the trailer video was shown "behind closed doors"? --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 02:43, 31 July 2006 (CDT)
 * None-revealing-to-outside. Didn't specifically mention a door d-: - 03:06, 31 July 2006 (CDT)

Another ChinaJoy related page for you to check for previously unpublished info: http://gw.the9.com/news/main/41036.shtml -- 02:19, 1 August 2006 (CDT)

Skill template issue
Please check Talk:skill box again. --68.142.14.19 09:09, 31 July 2006 (CDT)
 * don't you mean Template talk:Skill box??[[Image:ST47logo.jpg|User:ST47|50px]] (talk) 09:10, 31 July 2006 (CDT)

Chinese GW wiki
please check it agagin, I need some advice--heach 11:31, 2 August 2006 (CDT)

There's a Chinese Guildwiki? Can someone clue me in please? By the way, hllo PanSola! Yeah, that's all. Silk Weaker 10:50, 10 August 2006 (CDT)
 * right here, Chinese GW wiki--heach 11:14, 10 August 2006 (CDT)


 * It's a GuildWars wiki in Chinese, it's not the Chinese GuildWiki (which is still being seeded and tested, and is not public yet), just for clarification. - 16:42, 10 August 2006 (CDT)

GuildWiki Policy
You might be interested in what I did to Policy. &mdash;Tanaric 18:12, 5 August 2006 (CDT)

Clarity
I feel as though I need to apologise as the "all the edits on blah blah blah are either done by admins" and "all done by admins plus Stabber" lines were both written by myself. I feel very bad about it, I mean really bad. I have a strange relationship with templates I think and if you read further down you'll see I soften my stance. I do also believe as you said that you'd have made those edits regardless of you sysop status and made some of those edits before you were promoted anyway. As I said my stance has changed and that's the whole point of having a discussion, to have a bit of a think about it. I don't believe any more that major templates should only be the domain of admins.

If you were online in game at the moment I would chat to you about it. I don't want to think that you'd resign as an admin due to a comment by me. PanSola, I don't for a second think that you given a standoffish impression that you're the admin and we're the lowly users. I respect you because you don't act like that, you act like any other good contributor and never wield a big "I'm an admin" stick. Basically the only obvious way to tell that you're an admin is every so often you perform some administrative task that can be seen in Recent Changes, none of your edits give that impression except in the extremely rare occasion, say once a month where you step into some topic in the role of an admin and you clearly state this.

I hate the idea that something I said in any way contributes to you leaving your position because you feel an "us and them" thing. Out of all the current admins you achieve the goal of being a "valuable contributors who just happens to be an admin" better than anyone else. I firmly believe that. The fact that the "us and them" concept worries you is probably proof that you strive hard to accomplish that goal but I don't think you need to worry.

The "us and them" line I used was applicable to Tanaric and Tanaric only. I very much so believe that Tanaric's heart is in the right place, he wants the wiki ideals of everybody having a say in the wiki's running. That’s all well and good but hopefully this analogy can convey what I’m trying to say, because he no longer makes many normal contributions and just comments on policy these days he’s kind of like a boss. A boss who cares about his workers. You’re more akin to a normal worker who also cares about worker’s rights but you’re still working with us plebs every day and are therefore far more in touch, despite being a spokesperson for us. You juggle the normal everyday contribution stuff with the admin stuff you have to do so well I don’t believe you think about it too much, you’re just a user with a few more rights than normal in my mind.

Sorry for the long message but this is important to me, you can blame Tanaric for starting a long post trend! I'm probably a little more emotional than normal because I'm full of cold medication at the moment so I hope that I have managed to convey my feelings better here. I will finish by saying that irrespective of what sysop status you do or don't have, your posts here will always be respected. Despite English apparently not being your native language, you are one of, if not the most eloquent writers here. The thought and consideration you give to your posts are what gives them weight, not any adminship. --Xasxas256 05:32, 9 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I fully agree with everything Xasxas has posted here, and very much appreciate his effort to clarify his remarks. His notion that I'm more like a boss has been confirmed by my recent appointment to bureaucrat, which makes me more akin to Gravewit or Nunix than the rest of the administrative team now. &mdash;Tanaric 12:28, 13 August 2006 (CDT)

ParserFunctions
Did you or anyone else ever have Gravewit try installing ParserFunctions to replace some of the current logical template usage? It's been around since April and been live on WP since the middle of April, so it's probably stable-ish. --68.142.14.39 15:20, 11 August 2006 (CDT)
 * I believe I hvae told him about it. - 18:20, 12 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Did he say anything about it? The progression templates could also be mostly replaced with math done with PF.  --68.142.14.42 00:15, 16 August 2006 (CDT)

Categories: "tree" vs. "sort key" method
Hi PanSola, just a quick heads-up that you might want to comment on GuildWiki talk:Style and formatting. -- 05:09, 15 August 2006 (CDT)

Policy deleted
FYI: As you made a recent edit to Don't immediately delete, I wanted to point out the discussion in GuildWiki talk:Don't immediately delete. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 09:35, 21 August 2006 (CDT)

Builds discussion re: site policies
You may already be aware of it, but if not can you take a look at the (long) discussion at GuildWiki_talk:Style_and_formatting/Builds and voice your opinion? I'm asking several of the currently active admins to take a look. The issue, to me, is one of interpretation of site policies and practices. I was involved in the discussions earlier, so I cannot consider myself totally unbiased in any attempt to resolve it myself. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 20:57, 23 August 2006 (CDT)

A bunch of proposed changes to the skill box template(s)
Sorry about dumping all this on you, but there aren't too many people to ask about this since most don't understand how the templates work. Here's a bunch of changes I want to make. I don't think there are reasons not to implement them, but I wanted to ask someone before making changes to "important" templates. If you have no objections, I'll make all these changes.

There's categorization code for campaign, skill type, etc. in the skill box templates besides the basic template:skill box. It's in many (if not all) of the others even though it'll never end up being used. I want to go through and cut the categorization stuff out of all but the basic template.

Along the same lines, I'll cut out the code that generates a message regarding the legacy use of skill templates since it should no longer be needed. This change and the last one aren't important, but it'll cut down on template use some, and that can't hurt but might help the server.

As for the usage of "profession=hide" in the QRs, I think it would be better to have parameters like hideprofession or hidewhatever. When I asked you a while ago on Template_talk:Skill_box about the parameter overriding, you said it was scrapped. Did you only mean for the stats? Hiding the profession icon and attribute for the QRs rely upon the profession being overridable. If it's switched to check for parameters like hideprofession the whole " " thing actually can be scrapped. In addition, SkillBoxIf can be scrapped in favor of just an if-then that checks for the existence of hideprofession (or whatever), cutting out some more template use.

Then there's Category talk:Echo (skill type)s where Galil and I discussed what to do about the echo type with the template. Originally, all the echo skills had their type set to "echo" which resulted in skills being categorized into "category:echos" but the type linking to echo, the skill article. Midnight08 came along and changed all the types to "echo (skill type)" to fix the type link, I guess, which resulted in "category:echo (skill type)s" but a proper type link.

Galil added a "cat" parameter to template:skill box with the intention of it handling the skill type category for echoes. So at the moment, the types are all "echo (skill type)" with cat set to "echos (skill type)." This sort of conflicts with how you have a hardcoded if to handle the skill type category for skills, since they both do the same thing in different ways. I don't really have an opinion about which way should be used, but they should both be done in the same way.

Depending on how the question of hardcoding an if into the template or providing a specific parameter instead goes, I'll do the same thing regarding the skill type link. Right now in the skill box and QRs, they all link to Echo (skill type), but I think Echo would be better. But, it's not possible to use a parameter to construct a link in a template such as " | ." I'll either add a parameter like typepipe so links are something like " | " or add a hardcoded if to achieve the same effect of making the "(skill type)" not display.

Lastly, to try to push to ParserFunctions again, I mentioned PF could be used to auto-fill the progression tables (since they're just linear). We could actually make skill descriptions fill in the values, too. In build articles we can use a "row"-like format that displays the actual values based on the build's attribute ranks. I'm going to post on Gravewit's talk page about it, so please chime in (if you agree).

Once more, sorry for so much text. --68.142.14.80 03:54, 24 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Thanks for caring. I agree with cutting out the categorization code for the non-basic skill box templates.  I agree with removing the legacy note.  The entire "hide" thing should just get nuked -- a new "skill box blah" should be used to display things differently (this is a change of design that I thought through later).  I suggest a "nocat" parameter for skill boxs to disable hard-code autocategorization, and manually categorize all skills of Echo type (manually specify  all of its categories, not just the skill type cat).  Finally, I support ParserFunctions too. - 05:51, 24 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Doing all the work in the specific skill box template seems like a good idea. Between that and removing the legacy note, there's no use for the "part" parameter, right?  Besides removing the useless categorization stuff, I'm going to think about it more before making any other category-related changes.  I was pondering letting skill data templates add additional categories, actually.  Something like extracat1=Touch skills, though that'd just make it a bunch of if extracatX exists then category:extracatX.  I think it'd be best to keep the categorization all in one place, whether the skill article or in the templates.  --68.142.14.80 06:16, 24 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Check out GuildWiki talk:Sandbox/Skill box for what I did with ParserFunctions and the basic skill box template. --Fyren 13:05, 25 August 2006 (CDT)