Talk:Hell's Precipice (mission)

/Archive 1

Archived
Ftw. If you have any still-open queries, move them from the archive to here. :) &mdash; Warw/Wick 14:00, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Added Hard Mode Section
I've only added extra relevant info I regard are useful as a monk and, very likely there may be better skills or tactics that improves over it, but I've managed to complete hard mode on the first try without any party members dying. However we did bring 3 monks in total (2 heroes and myself) and I wager had highly experienced party members that gave the extra edge. Reichi Aryon 19:04, 22 April 2007 (CDT)


 * The tips for the monk(s) in Hard Mode are good. I just completed the mission in Hard Mode with just Heros and Henchmen.  I used 2 Monk heros and one Hench monk.  I made one Monk hero a Protection monk and the other a Healing monk.  Both had Frigid Armor, and I used Frigid armor for myself as well.  I was a Warrior/Elementalist with a Warrior interruption build using Skull Crack. ImperialMike 10:48, 3 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Just finished Hard Mode with hench/heros: 3 monks(1 hench), 1 nec hench, 1 water ele, 2 war hench, 1 domination mes. Took a while, but the saving factor that made it possible was LIFE BARRIER. With life barrier, the mission seemed relatively easy, albeit long. 66.32.253.192 21:10, 6 August 2007 (CDT)


 * I did this mission in Hard Mode on my first try with 1 hench monk, 1 hero monk, 3 Water eles(me and 2 heroes), 2 mellee henchmen and Eve(blood henchmen).--Ryve 00:25, 06 December 2008 (UTC+1)

I toned down the HM section of the article. What it said about everybody bringing loads of defensive skills with only a couple for attacking (?!) is completely ridiculous. And while I agree that this is pretty much the only HM mission that could use three monks, taking more than three is redundant (the article said to take AT LEAST three :-S ). And I do understand that people might not have heroes to utilize here, but that doesn't change the situation much. As for myself, I practically walked through the mission without anybody dying or even coming close (2 players, 6 heroes). We took Pretty much everything else was for killing. Johh 17:44, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
 * W with Endure Pain and Lion's Comfort.
 * R/Mo with Broad Head Arrow and loads if interrupts.
 * N/Mo with Well of Power and Well of Blood.
 * E/Mo with Ward Against Harm.
 * E/Mo with Ward Against Elements, Frigid Armor.
 * 3 monks with a variety of healing/protection.


 * And honestly, that's way too much defense... I've walked through the entire game, including all hardmode content, with very little alteration to the following build:


 * Ursan
 * MM with Splinter/A Rage
 * 2x SS with Kaolai
 * Earth Hench
 * Ele/Nec Hench
 * 2x Monk Hench

The key is simply aggro control... ( Talk • Contribs) 17:49, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I seem to recall beating this HM pre-eotn with a warrior frenzying at every opportunity. As ruricu said, aggro control. Lord of all tyria 17:51, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for agreeing. Johh 18:10, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


 * "Healers" doesn't necessarily mean "monks". In many cases (including here), a restoration ritualist and two monks will be better healing capabilities than three monks.  A recommendation of bringing exactly three healers is rather redundant, as it's not specific to the mission.  Bringing fewer than three healers in any hard mode mission with a party size of 8 is inadviseable.  Sure, you may be able to beat some that way (especially if the rest of the group has fairly defensive builds), but you'll have a rougher time of it than if you had more healing.
 * Note that all of you are assuming a stronger party than a lot of players will have. If you have multiple competent players and the rest of the spots a reasonable hero build, then yeah, three healers is plenty.  If you go with the ursanway cheat code, then observing that cheat codes work doesn't mean the mission is trivial if you don't use them.  It is better to write an article that will work for a relatively weak party:  henchmen/heroes, the player a class that doesn't fit the mission that well, no meaningful rank in title tracks, and no consumables.
 * While it isn't necessary to bring more than three healers, if someone is stuck on the mission, bringing an extra healer is likely to fix the problem, at least if he was already bringing ward against harm. It's pretty much impossible to have insufficient damage in this mission, as eight healers will probably have all the damage you need; 7 healers and a water elementalist will certainly be far more than enough.  Quizzical 19:04, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The note about using ritualists is spot-on, I guess I use "monk" in much the same meaning as you use "healer", which is my fault naturally. But I very strongly disagree with everything else you say in the first paragraph.
 * I'd like to express that it's generally inadvisable to EVER take more than two healers in an 8-man party (yes, even in HM, even with using some henchmen, even with not having "fairly defensive builds" on others, etc). I haven't completed all the HM missions in Factions yet, but at least in Proph/Nf there's no other exception to this rule than maybe this mission.
 * I am fairly certain that you could indeed complete this mission with an all-defensive (all-monk?) team (god knows I will never try to find out). And you perhaps could even make me say that it's "the safest" way (although I feel like objecting to that too). But it sure isn't neither "the best" nor "the easiest" way. I think taking an extra hour to complete this mission with 8 healers/defensives gives you "a rougher time", as you put it, than taking only a reasonable amount of healing and MAYBE having one or two deaths in the process, if you really don't know your way around PvE yet.
 * Also, this is probably not the best place to make this argument, but I'll throw it in here anyway - I'd say it's ill-advised to ever take more than one healer in a 6-man party. People tend to usually take two to make themselves feel more comfortable I guess, especially in the Crystal Desert missions. I've helped a lot of people in these places and got a lot of surprised feedback about how things are easier with less healers. Off the top of my head, I can think of only one exception to this rule as well - when vanquishing the Sand Elementals in Prophet's Path and Vulture Drifts you could probably do better with a second healer. Cheers and good night. Johh 01:34, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


 * As you describe it, in addition to three pure monks, you took 4 characters using monk secondaries. It's that quite a spectacular violation of your own advice on never taking more than two healers?  We might be using different definitions of "healers" here.  I count a healing monk, protection monk, or restoration ritualist as a healer.  I also count a motivation paragon as half a healer, as well as any character using some skills from the aforementioned healer categories in addition to more offensive skills.
 * Another possible discrepancy is use of the usual crutches for incompetent players: consumables and pve-only skills, especially Ursan Blessing.  If you're assuming that players use those and I'm assuming that players don't, we could reach very different conclusions about the difficulty of the same mission.  If you're claiming that, without using these, you cruised through The Frost Gate, The Wilds, Sanctum Cay, Elona Reach, and Zen Daijun in hard mode with only one character in the group using any divine favor, healing prayers, protection prayers, restoration magic, or motivation skills and without using outlandish tactics, I'd call you a liar.  I don't think that's what you're claiming, though.
 * In case we really are talking about the same thing, there are trade-offs between offensive and defensive capabilities. Go too heavily toward offense and you can't stay alive.  Go too heavily toward defense and you can't kill some mobs.  There is an interval between them, and my basic recommendation is, don't go too close to the edge.  Even if you could beat a hard mode mission while perilously short on healing, adding an extra healer will greatly improve your chances of success.  Even if you would have succeeded with a more offensive group, it might not have been faster, as recovery from a near-wipe takes a while.
 * Many players have the idea that they're all offense, and someone else can take care of defense. It is very rare for a player to lean too strongly toward defense, and have insufficient damage.  Indeed, there are only a few missions in the game where it is possible to lean too heavily toward defense to complete the mission with the bonus or master's reward unless one goes way out of his way to do so.  Quizzical 02:59, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The reason why everybody had a monk secondary in my party is that this was my very first try of this mission in HM and as I did not quite know what to expect, I put a monk hard rez on every character except myself (W). Nobody ended up using them and I guess it was redundant to type the "/Mo" out here.
 * I do not want to be called a liar, but I am indeed claiming that I completed almost all of the 6-man party content on all three continents in HM with one healer and without major problems (remembered another exception besides the Sand Elementals -> the Fire Imps in Southern Kryta can be a real annoyance). I don't think a third of a party should hardly ever be focused on healing. I'm never going to put that into any wiki articles though, so we don't have to argue about that.
 * I like your definition of the interval between the offensive and definition extremes and I guess i really like playing on the offensive edge of that. But I think I'm right in feeling that the mindset of "take as little offensive power as possible and only as much as necessary and fill all the rest up with defense" should not be advocated in wiki articles, because that's excatly what the article was doing. Am I right?
 * Oh and by the way, my main character is a warrior primary (for whom I'm doing the guardian/vanquisher titles) and I do not use Ursan Blessing or have never assumed others to. That's a hell of a boring way to play. Johh 13:06, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
 * What exactly were you using when you did this HM content? Oh, and "as much as necessary and fill all the rest up with defense" is a guaranteed way to succeed if the defence is well made. If you have the necessary amount of power then you are by definition never going to need more, and if the rest is defence (good enough to keep everyone up and protect any vital NPCs) then you will win. Do not even try to argue against bringing the necessary amount of power as being enough, the bar for how much is "necessary" changes with the challenge, and the harder the challenge, the higher the bar. Even arguing that "more power gets it done faster" is false. Because if you are aiming to get it done faster then the amount of power necessary goes up.Ezekiel  [Talk]  13:48, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I was referring to extreme cases, such as doing a mission with 8 healers and no offensive skills (see above). It might be enough power to complete what you have to do, but to my mind is extremely unpractical. Johh 14:16, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


 * This whole "3 monks" thing is excessive. I just finished vanquishing/guardianing to legendary level and never used more than 2 monks, usually 1 hero with a zealous benediction protection build, and a henchmen healer and this mission was no different; a Command Paragon (Mixture of offensive buffs and defensive shouts) is a useful replacement to a Minion Master you might bring for other missions, but adds a lot more to the party than mere healling/protection.


 * A lot of newbies I've met lately kept insisting on using 3 healer in HM when it's in the end unessecary and this article just seems to be reinforcing it; at least teach players how to play Hard Mode right instead of advising them to bring half a party worth of monks ;p --85.62.18.8 11:15, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


 * In a number of hard mode missions, I've tried going with two healers, and I've tried going with three, and three generally makes things a lot easier (at least in parties of eight), with a handful of exceptions such as Imperial Sanctum. Even in cases where going light on healers seems to make sense, I may be able to get by with two, but three makes it a lot easier.  I'd usually rather give up 5% of a party's damage than double the probability of mission failure.  Many players fail missions because their party was geared too heavily for damage, with insufficient defensive skills.  Rarely do players fail by bringing too much defense and not enough damage.  Indeed, even in missions where master's reward is timed, a heavily defensive party usually has plenty of time, and the way to fail master's reward is to halfway wipe and take a few minutes to recover from it.
 * By "healers", I don't necessarily mean three monks; I count healing monks, protection monks, and restoration ritualists as healers, and paragons, some smiting monks or dervishes, and other characters that use some secondary monk or ritualist skills may count as at least part of a healer, too. Indeed, with rare exceptions (Vizunah Square and Abaddon's Gate are the only one that come to mind), I'd usually advise against having more than two monks.  If you're taking three healers, a ritualist will usually be better than a third monk.
 * It should perhaps be noted that I'm saying when you're using henchmen and heroes, three healers helps a lot. If both of the healers are players, and smarter or more efficient than henchmen or heroes would be, two might be fine.  If you're relying heavily on pve-only skills or (less commonly) consumables, then you should perhaps throw out the usual guidelines, as if you're using such cheats, lots of reckless stuff will work.  Likewise, if you're heavily farming some narrow area, builds specifically tailored to that particular area are just fine, even if they'd fail spectacularly in many other places.  Quizzical 21:04, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Talisman?
what is the deal witht he talisman? is it like the amulet ofthe mists or the book of secrets? if so, then i have to redo this mission on a bunch of my chars, something im not looking forward to doing.Unwisesage 23:59, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Its exactly like those, read the Deldrimor Talisman page for more information. -- Xeon 00:05, 25 April 2008 (UTC)