Talk:Shadow Form

Archived conversations.

Can't be maintained by eles anymore me thinks.... lasts 22.8 seconds at 13 shadow arts with 20% mod, recharge is 22.5 with all the right skills, both rounded up to 23 seconds
 * Erm... It seems that this nerf is just designed to stop the ele's using it. If my maths are right then the sins are still gonna be perma. Can anyone confirm my maths? Wild...  This is Cake Townz!  14:36, 12 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I can not confirm your math, but thats exactly how/why it was nerfed, to make it very hard for non sins to keep it up perm.Durga Dido 14:38, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * 14 shadow arts is minimum for maintaining now w/ GoS and Deadly Paradox Kurtan 14:41, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Dev notes ftw &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 14:44, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Dev notes ftw. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 18:56, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Diff ftfw. (Not all paragraphs line up perfectly, but it's better than tabbing back and forth.) &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 19:34, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I haven't laughed so hard in a long time. Thank you both[[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke Mekko 20:13, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Best. Update. Notes. Ever! 98.219.48.111 00:14, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Shadow Form - Nerf
The last update was designed to slow down the dominate farmers of Guild Wars, the perma. With Shadow Arts at 16, even with a consumable, the day of the Perma is over.

I've experimented with several Perma Builds, even with 71 Energy, it is impossible to maintain Shadow Form indefinitely. The cycle time of Shadow Form consumes your energy at a phenominal rate.

Thumbs Down on this update.

Developers involved with Updates lost their focus, this is a game. We play this for enjoyment.
 * I just got this skill too... Regardless, I think less farming is good.--Siyth 13:47, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I am sorry, i do not entirely agree anet has been able to kill one more fun build to use. i cannot, i WILL not beleive there is no way arround the energy appetite the skill now has, i have just been in GTOB outside the temple, trying to maintain a perma SF with AE and have discovered my energy to become 0 after 3 minutes of being a perma.... sure you have a 1 second margin before you have to activate the echoed SF to stay alive, sure this, shure that. I say srew it all. Especially coz of the energy chomping this skill now does to ya... just go mesmerway, much much more effective... in some instances all you need are dolts and channeling, in others you need signets for energy regen... and lets all be honest. EVERY instance has a safe spot here or there especially once you killed off more or less all the population in the area... so its not over its just not for nubcakes anymore.... gg anet on this one they rly did it.... BUT they could at least bring back full damage instead of reducing it.... well thats it... ill continue to chomp on raptors as channeling usually works on those dolts... but please.... ANET if you can hear this, stop killing professions... necros got uber butfucked in the last year, no more soul reaping and no more minion factories, i said ok, then you killed ritualists, i said let them be... then you messed with the 55 for a long fucking time before reverting it back and i was patient... now for the last time stop. killing. professions! sin elites are sucky to begin with and then you go and kill the one parading shining star.... GG but like i said.... not killed, more like maimed to make it more pr0 when ppl use it... still up to the nubcakes to decide.... ill go on and adapt... i allways have... Humble Servitor
 * If you're just going to Adapt(IoW; real-creativity be damned, you're just gonna roll the NEXT FotM on down the line)... and it takes over 3 minutes for you to run out of energy currently... then what exactly do you actually have to complain about here? Want some mood-Music?...Here, lem'me give ya a hand!, Hurrrrr --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](05,Jan.'09)
 * Three minutes? on an A/Me? yesh i beleive ya... and no i am not entirely unhappy about this AS I SAID before... this is not the worst thing that happened it just made SF pr0 for more coordinated ppl to use... im just obviously ranting about the entire situation... ANet made a game and instead of balancing other clases to the level of say soul reaping imbaness they just took the essential working part of an entire profession and demolished it... now you tell me you arent pissed because of what they did, most of the nurfs were okay so far... but i think they are getting a bit outta hand here and there... in the last year alone they demolished SF from uber imbaness to well.... three minutes of some semi dmging shit... not to mention you do have to cast other stuff to kill people... no-one just tanks anymore.... but like i said, just made it so pr0 ppl can go there and noobs cant.... im not entirely unhappy, im just crappy coz i made an uber build 48h before the update and now i have to reconfigure some of the things for it to work again... otherwise i dont rly care.... they returned imbaness to the 55 again... so why should i care? :DHumble Servitor
 * Well, atleast you're honest about it... Kudos.(Though you still seem to be missing the larger picture). --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]
 * I am willing to understand, but i guess i am a dumb shmuck in the economycs department and the social department... so if you can take the time to explain.... btw, if peeps dont mind the 0.7sec margin for SF with AE perma you can srsly get arround the whole not enough energy thing... auspicious incantation, ftw!Humble Servitor
 * Hahaha, nice try. You don't have to take my word for it either, just know that it took me over a decade (and countless resources) thrown at these people just to get a grasp on it. So I'm not about to just fork it over that easy.  OTH, reading Shard's "translation" article is a good primer for understanding parts of it ;) --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]

have your cake and eat it too
''"We have decided to try one last time to scale down the effectiveness of Shadow Form while still allowing it to be maintained permanently." (from update notes).'' Come on now... grow a pair and commit to one course of action for the skill. It's too "muddy" now. Maintain this skill as a blatantly easy farming/running method that will be used and abused, or revert it back to it's original "all or nothing" concept. Skill skitzophrenia is can confuse the community and not let them know if a usage for a skill they're going to train on and love will still be around with the next update. Which in turn encourages players to exploit the more "broken" builds now, in fear of them not being around later. So choose a path and stick to it ANet. And path, such as the following, would be fine: Make up your minds, and ____ or get off the pot ANet. --Mooseyfate 20:35, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * LET (accept it) shadow form be a EASY (perma), QUICK (why make things boring?) way to run or farm things that can't break through it.
 * Fix consumables, not skills. One should question the necessity of anything that can't be used the same on pve and pvp.
 * Go with the original intent of shadow form. High immunity and UNALTERED damage for a limited time, followed by great vulnerability.  I remember fondly using various classes to charge in, do your damage, and charge out or die.  Epidimizes the assassin idea.  Was also usable, but not broken, on multiple classes.  This would be longer duration, and longer recharge, and wouldn't require pve/pvp variations.


 * People use broken builds not because their previous broken builds were nerfed, but because the defense an 8-man team yields is too high. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  21:16, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I completely agree with Mooseyfate - it's the best comment about Shadowform and against perma shadow by far. This is what Shadowform once was, and should revert back to. Permashadow has effectively ruined some areas, like Tomb of primeval kings where there's no chance of getting a team at all because of all the A/E out there. And permashadow is too boring and tedious to play for the casual gamer, like me - I rather try at cooperative gaming in difficult areas than mastering a tedious, repetitive, boring solo build. 84.104.80.120 18:11, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

skill revamp idea
now everyone who iv seen talk about this skill has been either complaining about how it is (now)maintainable, or about it being nerfed.well I have an idea, instead of it being a "god mode" as it is now, what about makeing it into a shealth mode, which say ends when you use an attack or spell? make the enchantment maintained (-1 pip of energy) with say 30 sec recharge, and add +damage to the next attack used, stacking with an attack skill. i think this fits with the assassins theme nciely, because it would allow the assassin to "sneak" up in his/her opponment, and then strike a very powerful blow. to keep this balenced, it would have to be no more powerful at avadeing damage as it is now, however puting an end on next attack or skill clause would stop it beign abused by anything other than runners, which can just as easily be done useing other methods anyway. but make it so the +damage can only be used with attacks, and not spells to prevent assa-casters from useing it. to simply fy that ramble:

shadowform

energy 10(?) cast 1s recharge 30s(?)-1pip of energy

elite maintained enchantment

while under the effects of shadow form you cannot be the target of hostile spells or attacks. when shadowform ends you strike for +x..xx damage. shadowform ends when you hit with an attack or use a skill.

an ims or shadowstep would be cool for getting you to your enemy faster to assassinate it would be fitting, but too abusable by runners i think. what does the guild wars community think of this idea for shadow form? it is open to suggestions Artemis the ranger 20:31, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I honestly don't see any legitimate "Purpose" for this skill in the first place. Vow of Silence is also "Perma" but it doesn't make you immune to physical contact like this silly Elite does.  Why is that an issue? ...because certain Enchantments still trigger even when physical contact was never made with you.  It just doesn't fit any kind of balanced "Ethereal" or Martial Arts concept.  The previous poster is right, a Shadow Form is something that should completely conceal your presence UNTIL you attack... once you reveal your true location, you should be vulnerable to something and attacks against you that fail, should not be triggering defensive enchantments.  Put in simple terms, it's just out of step with everything that makes sense in this game --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]

Take #2

 * Also... the Loss of nearly all your Health makes no sense either, here's a better idea:


 * Shadow Form: Elite Skill. Lose all Enchantments. For 10....25..30 seconds, you cannot be the target of Hostile Spells or Attacks and you cannot cast Enchantments. This skill ends when you Attack or use an Attack Skill.  End effect: For 10 seconds  < > , but spells and touch skills targeting you fail. In "Ninja terms", this would prevent you from using buffing "ChiJutsu's" but still allow you to cast GenJutsus and ShadowSteps while ending completely if you engage with a TaiJutsu. --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](29,Dec.'08)


 * Fyi, Sliver is supposed to trigger even when there has been no physical contact. Blocked attacks trigger it, too. The main reason it's so imba, is because monsters in PvE have no counter. Barely anything farmworthy has Sig of Disench, heavy touch skills, or strong PBAoE. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  22:50, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The reason it's 'Imba' is because it ignores every single concept of Cause & Effect. Shadow Form is basically phase shifting you into another Dimension so that nothing from this Realm is able to affect you... yet some Enchantments like Sliver are still being triggered even though there is no possible way that the trigger-ers are actually affecting you in any way.  It's biggest effing Shark-Jump I've ever seen, and this is coming from a /Rule34/-tard! --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]

Take #3
ifaik your right about slither, however slither is not the skill we are here to discuss. the piont of my propossal, was to revive the concept of an assasin, that is to be a sneaky little sod, and appear at the last minute to absolutely slaughter something. but generaly that something is only one something, not an entire angry mob of for example baby raptors. and as a balence idea for my idea on how you could alter shadow form to make it an interesting option, adding -1 energy/second as well as the -1pip would be necesary (and possibley an ends if your energy reaches 0 clause, this however could also be achived with -4pips off regen.), not only to help prevent possible abuses that could arise, but also being able to maintain what is effectivly invulnerability, should have a high energy cost attached to it. and my inspiration for this idea coems from a stealth mode skill, the name escapes me, of the unlockable character of balders gate :dark alliance 2, the character artemis has a similar skill, which drains his energy a vast amount, but monsters are totaly ignoreant of his presence until he attacks, and when he attacks he deals a huge amount of damage to whomever he hits. and something along the lines of that is what i would personaly like to see. Artemis the ranger 23:06, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * You can't have the concept of an assassin in the Guild Wars setting without it being too powerful. An assassin should be able to kill in one combo, otherwise they are no longer assassins but warriors. That won't work though because of balance issues. You can not balance a true assassin class in a world like GW. There are simply too many issues at hand. For example, an assassin can move through shadows to a target, well why can't they target a tree and be able to teleport all over the place. There is no need for an assassin to do anything except teleport around as long as they have energy. As for running why run, when you can easily shadow step around anything. These concepts will not work because of the idea of balance. I created an assassin early because I thought it would be similar to Nightcrawler from the X-Men. Well that was laughable when I realized that apparently I am only capable of teleporting to an enemy and yet completely unable to target any other shadow I might want to step to. There are a few skills that target an ally, and a few that target random locations. Why random locations to be honest? Why can I not choose to shadow step to a shadow in front of me rather than to the side? It seems odd that a class devoted to the idea of martial arts, evasion, stealth, and a killing blow has very little to do with any of those things. If you look at the Assassin as it is in GW, then you will see that Shadow Form is one of a VERY few skills that actually fits the class. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke MekkoMy Talk Page 23:21, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

a valid piont teneke, assassins are a very hard profession to balence within guild wars. but s it stands, shadowform basicly turns you into a fighting shadow, which does not promote imaginative play, nor is it the way of the assassin to be a liveing shadow, assassisn live within shadows, but do not control shadows themselves. thus the assassin profession should be able to hide, and then strike. and no, assassins in general cannot simply shadow step everywhere. in no game or mythological book/film or even in myths and legends are assassins capable of such feets. if you wish to play as nightcrawler, go buy an x-men game. it is also not plausable to give much more structure to where an assassin could shadowstep in GW! because the levels are only 2 dimentional, they have no hight as such, such as its common knoledge that a warrior on top of a bridge can fight a warrior below the bridge. however, from my prospective, assassins hdie in the shadows then reveal themselves and strike. not be the living shadow that shadow form currently is. while i said i am open to suggestions, i mean on hwo the skill could be make into something more interesting to use, not suggestions of why it is a mindless god mode skill, that is a topic that has been exhausted many times over to no avail.Artemis the ranger 23:33, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think you understood my point. The point is that Assassins are not just hard, but impossible to balance properly with the current limitations of Guild Wars. That is why so many of the Assassin skills are currently stuck in buffandnerf. I admittedly do not know a great amount about the history of assassins, snipers yes, assassins no. Yet in a fantasy world the history of something from the real world means nothing. I guess it would be better to imagine the class is not named Assassin but rather Vicodin class. Now Vicodin class has the ability to teleport to an enemy, to an ally or to a random location. Please explain to me why then Vicodin can not teleport behind the wall in front of them, or for that matter onto that wall? My point there is that again the game is too limited to properly implement the class. You agreed with this, but I don't think you understand that was my point about why Assas Vicodins can not just shadow step anywhere. I agree with you on some points, but I think you are missing a very big point. The main reason that Vicodins have Shadow Form is because the rest of their skills and abilities would not be available. Take for example, the classic use of poisons. Now in this fantasy world a character can simply wait long enough and the poison will go away. Yet in the real world it was never that easy. A Vicodin using proper poison could kill quite effectively. I am pretty sure you already agree to that. I do not think it matters one way or another what any of us think though. I don't see any reason why Assassin's shouldn't have Shadow Form. I don't see any good reasons listed above either. It just seems like a few people are upset that the class is so efficient at farming. As for your suggestion, it wouldn't make sense in Guild Wars. The character basically loses a ton of energy but in return the first attack does a huge amount of damage. The problem with that is Guild Wars is build about limits to damage. You could not have an assassin pull off a one hit kill. It would completely break the balance of the game. Shadow Form right now works for farming, but in pvp it is ridiculous. The skill is balanced, and your idea would not be. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke MekkoMy Talk Page 08:08, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I actually HAVE played a series of fully Free-Teleporting "Assassins" in a 3-D PvE and PvP environment but this was in City of Heroes. (for those familiar with the game, the two classes were an "EA" Stalker and an Electric "Blapper"). And free- movement Teleporting was a very "clunky system" that in the end had created more imbalances for PvP (and inconveniences in PvE) than it ever Solved.  Infact the "D.C. Universe" game coming out next seems to have taken that lessen to heart as they appear to be omitting  Teleporting entirely from their Game and I don't blame them.  The mere concept of allowing ANY class the ability to kill another player in 5-seconds or less, while Teleporting all over the place, is the DEFINITION of poor game design... just as much so as giving that same class the ability to Disappear entirely or become un-affected by 90% of every other class's skills.(even if only for a very brief time).  No matter how it's tweaked, these mechanics will still be abused or just plain frustrate everyone else who must fight through more conventional means.  And that's the danger of ANY design that is too Binary.  So Tenk is dead on here, the very Concept of an Assassin is way too binary because they're more Mythos than Human and they always have been.  The only way to fix this issue is for Anet to get on with GW2 and add a much more Original Spiking class that is also easier to counter (but more versatile in general like the Dervish and Necro).  If I was them, I'd start by centering that class' primary function around Debuffing in Melee so that their Target merely becomes totally Helpless rather than totally Dead :p --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]]

so...
despite this update being a few months old i see no real shift in the price of anything related to perma sf. what did this achieve besides slightly bumping up the cost of a zealous scythe snathe?LongCat 23:57, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You just made me a sad panda cuz the only zealous Snath I have is on a Deldrimor Green :( --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](30,Jan.'09)
 * Deldrimor Shear is srs bsns. D: I've seen very small price increases (temporary no doubt) and mostly just a lot of angry players. Conclusion: update didn't really fix anything. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 00:35, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Wait, people expected this to change prices? I am out of the opinion business, but still. Why would a change to SF like this change prices on things like ectos. Oh, I get it, the people at Anet thought that the only way to farm ectos was with permasin. Wow, sad.[[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke MekkoMy Talk Page 06:46, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Well if you go to Tomb of the Primeval Kings, about all you'll see is A/E and A/Me farmers. Sometimes there are b/p groups and such but they are rare these days. Heck, even if you go to a place like Temple of the Ages, there are usually lots of Permasins. So while it may not be the only way, it was one of the most noticeable/popular. It seems like nerfing the build would lead to a decrease in farming and an increase in prices, but since it wasn't enough to totally stop the build (just slowed it down yet again), and because people can always move on to use another build, nothing much happened. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 06:51, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It seems like nerfing the build would lead to a decrease in farming and an increase in prices, but since it wasn't enough to totally stop the build (just slowed it down yet again), and because people can always move on to use another build, nothing much happened. I agree. That is why I really don't get the reasoning behind the slow downs on this build. If it were the only build capable of farming these I could understand. In fact I would more than understand, I would be happy they keep nerfing it. I am not into the whole only one build can do this way of thinking. I am more along the lines of providing multiple useful ways for each class. For example if class x can farm here good, lets make a good place for class y etc. No real need for classism. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]Tenetke MekkoMy Talk Page 07:48, 31 January 2009 (UTC)


 * VwK needs a max triggers per second/per 3 seconds (ala Soul Reaping) and WWA needs a cap on amount of enemies hit. Voici, ecto price drops? Meh. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  09:47, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Or they could mix in These things + This to the over-farmed mob groups --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](31,Jan.'09)
 * Ah, but they did that in UW before, and too many people complained, so they reverted it. :\ [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 20:56, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) Yeah but ya gotta consider the timing, they THEY still thought they could reel Perma-SF's in more. Meanwhile there's plenty of enchant based "God-Builds" that would just take it's place if it if Perma wasn't possible. --ilr (02,Feb.'09)

Skill Recharge...
I'm going to risk making myself look ridiculous here, but I have to ask. I've been (reluctantly) using SF in its various permutations for years, and I have never once seen a HSR of spells kick in. Is this skill exempt? Am I overlooking something obvious? I was watching for it carefully for 2-3 hours of barrel runs earlier... Am I just incredibly unlucky? Sisipherr 16:25, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, probably. I've seen it often enough. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 18:01, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Since you said it's possible, I wandered into Isle of Nameless and marked down my attempts.  47 casts, 47 full recharges.  Something is seriously wonky here...  Yep, SF must hate me as much as I hate it. [[Image:Sisipherr sig image.jpg|19px]]Sisipherr  12:25, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I've never had any HSR trigger on SF either.--[[Image:El Nazgir sig.png|Talkpage]]El_Nazgir 12:27, 20 February 2009 (UTC)


 * If you're using it with Glyph of Swiftness and Deadly Paradox, it's no miracle it never happens, since you're at the HSR cap. Did you merely cast Shadow Form? Also, I have seen HSRs during runs (perma is slow for runs if you only need to avoid snare spells, which non-perma does fine). --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  12:55, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Probably was, as the shorter recharge would make the experiment take less time :P --> Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 13:00, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Ahai! HSR cap would do it. I only considered that in terms of no longer having a chance of quartering time on a 40/40 set, not in conjunction with skills.  Well, pish to all the people who say you need the 20% HSR for perma. [[Image:Sisipherr sig image.jpg|19px]]Sisipherr  18:45, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Glitch?
Somehow Shadowform is getting removed if I try to use it to run outside of Cavalon. Can someone else please try this and see what the hell is happening and how this spell is getting removed? Dagotta 04:17, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Nevermind. I figured out it was Expunge Enchantments used by the Creeping Carp. Note to self: don't run there! Dagotta 04:24, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I had that too, but it's quite runnable there, you just have to run around them. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 07:46, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The Creeping Carp have Dash, it can be rather difficult sometimes. :\ Entropy [[Image:Entropy Sig 2.jpg]] (C) 07:54, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "run around" the classic runner skill, that was lost with the rise of the perma. You avoid all mobs if possible. Also, this + this makes for a good run away combo. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 07:57, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm aware. But you just can't avoid some of them, and even with Dark Escape up, they can still manage to tag you. It just takes them getting into range once, and you're dead. I mean, I have run through before, but it's just not worth the trouble for most parts of Jade Sea... Entropy [[Image:Entropy Sig 2.jpg]] (C) 08:26, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, although I seem to recall running my assa everywhere. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 10:43, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Change the AI?
If Anet can change Ai react to RoJ differently, why can't they do the same with SF? For example if AI was changed so that if you have SF on they won't target you, since you will be invisible in the shadows so to speak, then most farming and speed clears using permas would be more difficult if not impossible. Doing so would prevent sliver and balling up mobs for spikes but still allow permas to be used as runners or dealing direct damage. Girl is a guy 7:52, 07 July 2009 (CDT)
 * Heh, most clever Solution I've seen yet ...Nerf QQ'ers would be deprived of direct claims to nerfitude --ilr[[Image:Ilr_d-small.png]](6,July.'09)
 * Not sure if you have SF lately but it wouldn't really make it more difficult at all. In fact in several areas I farm it would make the farm faster and easier. Take farming feathers, it would make it easier because you could attack build up adrenaline then disease the entire area without once pulling agro. That would also allow for farming areas that currently aren't farmable. Imagine how easy it would be to farm destroyer cores if the destroyers just stood there. You could effectively run just about any mission in any campaign. Anything that you can't degen to death with bleeding/poison/disease would then be easy prey for the SF dagger build. From the perspective of a sf farmer I would welcome this change. You don't seem to realize that enemies attacking you and activating skills actually slows down SF farming. [[Image:Spikeicon.png]]  Tenetke Mekko    My Talk 04:12, 7 July 2009 (UTC)