GuildWiki talk:Community portal/Archive 17

No Access
A few people in my guild have reported that guildwiki is unavailable to them. They can load the site, but it comes up blank. Works fine for me using ntl, but a guildie on ntl and another on Tiscali both reporting problems with the site.

More info on This Thread

Overuse of Spoiler tags
While I realize the importance of not spoiling the story for those who want the suspense, sometimes I find people's usage of the spoiler tag to be a bit overzealous.

When using the tag, please carefully consider separating the article into two parts, first being general background or common lore that does not spoil the plot, and second part being content that actually spoils the plot. Finally, place the spoiler tag between the first part and the second part. -PanSola 17:49, 7 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Just to add my two cents: I believe spoiler tags should be omitted entirely. Documentation of the nature that this wiki concerns is, by its very nature, a "spoiler". In fact, it is the whole idea. As such, spoiler-tagging is redundant and serves no useful purpose whatsoever. I realise not everyone feels this way, but it is my opinion and I'm sticking to it. --Bishop (rap|con) 19:25, 7 May 2006 (CDT)
 * I think there might be people who are interested in item stats/pictures without wanting to know the story in advance. That is my reason for thinking limited use of spoiler tag (specific to plot that takes place in the course of gameplay) is justified. -PanSola 19:30, 7 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I don't think it's overused. Not one bit! :) --Karlos 09:18, 8 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Without being funny, I like the spoiler tags and encourage some use of them where people feel it's appropriate. Frankly, I want people (self included) to be able to use the Wiki as a resource while being able to avoid blatant spoilers.  If a user finds a single thing here without expecting it that ruins part of the story, and really had no warning, that user will likely leave and never come back for fear of ruining the story more.  While I'm sure that some people don't care about spoilers at all, they are certainly not hurt by their presence.
 * Of course, I'm possibly one of those "overzealous" Spoiler-Tag users. If that's the case, duly noted and considered -- I try not to spoiler-tag everything, so it's still a useful tag.  =)  --JoDiamonds 12:28, 8 May 2006 (CDT)
 * I have no problem with the use of spoiler tags where part of the storyline is revealed; but I'm seeing it pop up anyplace a location name or a boss name is used. For example, it's now sprouting up in skill capture comments.  I ask you, from a one line mention of a location and a bosses name, what in the storyline is really given away?  If we're goig to be that overzealous in the use of the tags, we might as well just add it to the top of every page and be done with it.  I mean the main page revealed there are missions and quests in factions!  Need spoilers for that!
 * Okay, sorry, this devolved into a rant. Sorry about that; it's not targetted at anyone, so I hope no one was offended; but as you can see, I feel spoiler tags are over-used to the point of absurdity already and I'm hoping we can reduce their use to a more realistic level.  --161.88.255.140 12:55, 8 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Geesh: okay, the one example I used was discussed in the discussion page of that skill (the mention of "undead prince rurik"), which is still questionable to me, but at least there's logic behind that one. So I admit, I over-reacted on that one.  But, I still find them over-used in general and would love to see them reigned in some. --161.88.255.140 13:00, 8 May 2006 (CDT)
 * OK. I think the best answer we can probably give is that you've been heard in general, and if you have more specific grievances we can talk about them.  =)  I fall very squarely in the camp of thinking that revealing Undead Prince Rurik is a massive spoiler for players new to the game who are just browsing skills for the first time (after all, what could be the danger in just reading some skills)?
 * Also, I tried to respect PanSola's note above about putting the spoiler tag only where there is actual spoiler, but Skuld moved it back to the top of the page (for Hundred Blades). I'm certainly not going to fight too hard on this, but I mostly agree with PanSola on this one.  Players should be able to read the non-spoiler part of Hundred Blades without fear while realizing that there is part of the page that is a spoiler.  Thoughts? --JoDiamonds 08:31, 9 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Sorry, it looked a mess there as it wasn't really designed for sticking in the middle of the page. Theres always javascript/css expanding links.. :p Skuld  08:36, 9 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Sorry, it looked a mess there as it wasn't really designed for sticking in the middle of the page. Theres always javascript/css expanding links.. :p Skuld  08:36, 9 May 2006 (CDT)

I say we just stick a spoiler tag at the top of the main page and call that good. Remove all the others. "If you're going to read this website, you may encounter spoilers throughout." --Rainith 12:09, 9 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Heh - me likes that idea! BTW: While I feel they are over-used, I also found the tags to look almost DOS-like in appearance (not a bad thing in itself, but a dated look compared to our other notices).  I modified the warning boxes, take a look and discuss and/or revert them if you disagree or dislike the new ones. --161.88.255.140 12:12, 9 May 2006 (CDT)


 * The spoiler boxes are far too exaggerated now. It's not that big a deal. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 12:14, 9 May 2006 (CDT)
 * I tweaked it - any better? Or just revert to original? --161.88.255.140 12:26, 9 May 2006 (CDT)
 * In my mind, it's not a big deal at all, and taking up valuable screen real-estate for something this frivolous does actually hurt the users whom, like me, can appreciate the story regardless of having heard of Undead Prince Rurik before actually meeting him in-game. If you want to play the game like a book, this website is not for you. Descriptions of skills you have not yet seen are "spoilers" too. Not to mention maps of places you haven't been! Oh noes! Teh loos of suspeense!! --Bishop (rap|con) 12:54, 9 May 2006 (CDT)
 * I would like the spoiler tag to stay, but the new version is really really too big. The good old small red line was great! No harm in using it as long as people keeo their brains with them when tagging pages. --Gem [[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png|Gem]] 13:07, 9 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Actually I am not aware of any overuse of spoiler warnings. Maybe someone could provide some examples of inappropriate usage? Surely I don't mind if we cleanup and remove unnecessary spoiler-tags. According to less than sixty pages use this template, so this shouldn't be to much work. In my eyes, only content which reveals part of the storyline or the mild plot twists ("Xxxxx Xxxxx dies in hat mission." or "The Xxxxx Xxxxxx later on turns out to be a fraggin' bunch of cultists!") qualify as spoilers. I also agree with PanSola that only the part of an article should be labled which contains the spoiler.
 * On the other side, as someone who hasn't finished either campaign yet, I would find it a shame if the spoiler-tags would be replaced by some general warning at the main page. Such an unspecific announcement doesn't help anyone and could as well be omitted.
 * Concerning the new design of the spoiler tag I found the old version more elegant and less obtrusive. I wouldn't mind if they were reverted. (Sorry.) --MRA 13:13, 9 May 2006 (CDT)
 * For the record; I was kidding when I said that I liked the idea of spoiler warnings on the main page. I had assumed it was made as a humorous exageration of the use of spoiler tags.  I see that others took it more seriously.  For the record - I do NOT like the idea of it on the main page (I see someone has already added it to the edit copy - yecht!)
 * On the spoiler tags themselves. I dislike the originals; but I can see the concensus is clearly towards them, so I'll revert them back.  I honestly thought the newer tags were cleaner, and would fit mid-page easier (the original design really doesn't lend itself well to mid-article spoiler warnings).  Perhaps someone else can find a better alternative. --161.88.255.140 13:42, 9 May 2006 (CDT)
 * For the record, I was not serious when I said that, but I do think that people who use strategy guides (which is what this wiki is, a guide as stated on the main page) should expect there to be spoilers all over the place. If you look at a skill's page, the whole acquisition section is a spoiler.  It may not be a storyline spoiler in most cases, but it is a spoiler in the fact that it tells you where to find that skill as opposed to you finding it out on your own.  Realistically almost every article here has a spoiler or two in it.  So I think us spending an overly large amount of time marking them is pointless.  If you don't want to have stuff spoiled for you, don't use a guide, play the game without it.  --Rainith 15:03, 9 May 2006 (CDT)

How about we just put one big fat spoiler tag on the main page declaring that while we gather information on the game and relay it into articles much of it may spoil the plot of the game for the reader and he/she should take their own discretion about whether or not an article would potentially contain spoilers (like elite captures, greens, etc). 209.34.210.57 13:25, 9 May 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm against this. Again, I'll chime in with MRA here, if there are specific grievances, so to speak, let's review or remove them.  I don't think anyone here is saying we need lots more spoiler tags.  I'm in the camp that likes the amount we have now.  There's some places where spoiler tags are obviously superfluous -- we don't have to state that the maps page will contain maps, for instance.  But there's little reason to expect to see much if any plot revealed by going to a skill page, for instance.  And once you look at one skill page, if you decide you don't want to know boss names or locations, you never look at another.  (And bosses are mostly irrelevant and pointless.)  Quite a different shade of grey, in my mind, to start mentioning the death of main characters.  A shade of grey, but I think we've done a decent job of drawing a useful line (i.e. where the spoiler tags are right now). --JoDiamonds 15:35, 9 May 2006 (CDT)

New template for Armor function type articles
Template:Gallery index. See Style and formatting/Armor for documentation.

This should make those thumbnail tables easier to create (certainly more flexible to arrange them). I'm going to implement them on the mesmer articles. Though technically the old table method is fine (the underlying code are identicle), so existing tables don't have to be updated. -PanSola 21:45, 8 May 2006 (CDT)

Spanish babelbox?
Can someone add a Spanish Babelbox category template thingy for basic, at least, por favor? My Spanish is basic. Here's what I think it is: Este usuario puede contribuir con un capacidad básico de español. Is that right? It's been too long since I've written anything in Spanish... but the only word I had to look up was user! :) For easiness, I believe it should go here. --Tinarto 03:33, 9 May 2006 (CDT)

Here you go, stolen straight from wikipedia, I don't speak a word of Spanish myself:
 * Most (but not all) of the GuildWiki versions of the babel boxes seem to have the text in both english, as well as the language described. I've created one on this site using the above text, but the format of both languages. --161.88.255.140 17:44, 9 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Hot dang I was close. Thanks :) --Tinarto 18:47, 10 May 2006 (CDT)

Taking "idocy" skills out of PvP
Since I'm tired of argueing against "idocy" skills in PvP builds, I'd like to have a general discussion about it. I am talking about hexes like Spirit Shackles, Price of Failure, Spirit of Failure, Empathy and everything else that requrires your opponent to not notice or not know about your hex and act like a NPC that just whacks whatever comes close. I am fully aware that these skills work incredibly well against newcomers or Mending Pallys who just don't care. What I am saying is, that any experienced player who is given the chance to identify such hex on him will do what's right: Stop attacking and and remove it (or have a team member remove it). I don't mean Spiteful Spirit and Diversion - these skills are effectively shutting down any player, not just warriors or rangers and put great pressure on the enemy team. I can also understand that Clumsiness and Ineptitude are very effective in case the target foe is already attacking. I see the value here. Also, I accept that most RA teams don't bring a monk, so you can probably have a few wins with these skills pretty easily hence I advise against it, since there are quite a number of teams consisting solely out of casters. But in any other case, these skills are utterly useless and should not be taken with you except for a very a good reason.

I hope not to stand alone here. --Nilles 16:57, 9 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Whether the person attacks or not means the skill has done something useful. Chuiu (T/C)  17:00, 9 May 2006 (CDT)
 * The point is, that such cannot fill its purpose if the target does not react correspondingly. And there are certainly better things to do than wasting 10 Energy and 3 seconds of casting time on a target. --Nilles 17:11, 9 May 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm worried about making some list of skills and saying that we aren't going to allow them on PvP builds on GuildWiki. It seems like a very harsh line, and probably a bad idea going forward.  New skills from new expansions or rebalancing may totally change things, or even just new discoveries.  There was quite a while where Nature Spirits were considered largely useless for PvP.
 * For the particular comments on Spirit Shackles (for example), the three second cast times aren't as relevant for Mesmers (hence their class). Spirit Shackles is certainly not a good all-purpose spell like Diversion, but if your GvG group gets owned by Ranger Spikes, well, Spirit Shackles is decent on rangers.  And saying that it will just get removed is silly, since nearly all hex-based strategies use cover hexes anyway.  SS will get removed too, but it turns out it's still useful.  (Diversion is a special case, since you can't necessarily remove it without it taking effect.)
 * In short, the builds sections are already one of the few parts of GuildWiki that inspire massive POV-debates and arguments, and I'd really like to avoid stuff like that. Bang on any individual build on the talk page, improve it, or whatever.  As far as I'm concerned, the useful part of builds for guildwiki is showing commonly used stuff (whether good or bad), as a form of reporting what is used in the game.  This is the same way Slang on guildwiki is useful, even though it's not put in by the game designers.  I already think there are probably too many extraneous builds on GuildWiki, and too many people arguing about small points.  Let's report what's there, not invent new things.  There's other websites that do that already.  --JoDiamonds 09:39, 10 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Oh well, it was probably not a good idea to begin with. --Nilles 09:45, 10 May 2006 (CDT)
 * I would disagree with your atempt to bring it down to specific skills, but I see where you are comming from. There is a constant influx of builds that rely on the basic idea of "you do X and because your opponents are to stupid to notice X, they lose" when any opponent that would notice X can easily counter it. That might work against some new players in RA, but it is not what I expect from a good build. However I see no way to formalise that, it needs to be taken to each individual build page and agrued there. --Xeeron 04:23, 11 May 2006 (CDT)

Is anyone else capable of running a bot?
From the current look of things, Stabbot might not come back. There's a HUGE crusade regarding skill boxes that is pending, and I'd hate to do it by hand. So if anyone can do a bot, please respond. -PanSola 03:27, 10 May 2006 (CDT)
 * I could potentially run a bot. It would help tremendously if I knew where to look at the old stuff and how it was run (I vaguely remember seeing some references to Python scripts somewhere, which I have some experience with, but I'm hesitant to try to write stuff from scratch.) --JoDiamonds 09:29, 10 May 2006 (CDT)
 * I'd be technically able to do so, but I have too little time and too many projects already to work on this. However, I have already written a working (offline) parser for the skill pages, using Java and regular expressions. If someone wants to use a similar approach and expand on this, maybe I could be of help. Right now, I'm using the HTML pages, but parsing the wiki markup (to write it back) should work as well. As you might see from my contributions, I'm already fixing the irregulatities I find, which should make writing an edit bot a bit easier as a side effect. - Xanon 09:43, 10 May 2006 (CDT)
 * What's required? I might have the skills but I don't have the knowledge. --Tinarto 18:46, 10 May 2006 (CDT)
 * See User:Stabbot. There's some links to the scripts that were used.  I don't think it's required it be these scripts; the key is that we want the ability to make many similar changes across many pages.  I haven't looked into it much yet. Also, I believe the imminent need has been relieved (Stabbot finished the task that PanSola was referring too, I believe).  --JoDiamonds 16:01, 11 May 2006 (CDT)

Babel box redone
The old babel template has been moved to Template:BabelMsg. It includes a new "nocat" parameter to allow you to use the template without getting the article sorted into the cagetory.

The new Template:Babel is a short-hand for including the category. This should eliminate the need for redundent templates. It also supports the "nocat" functionality.

So, use Template:Babel if you just want a quick and simple way to denote your language abilities. Use Template:BabelMsg for non-serious usage or if you want a customized message.

For an example of usage of new templates, see my user page (which gets categorized) and my user talk page (which does not get categorized). -PanSola 19:39, 10 May 2006 (CDT)

Request for abbreviations
Can we make a namespace abbreviation "GW" for "GuildWiki"? Also, the following (but these can be done by users so I'll do them): Yes, I am a (recovering) Wikipedian. Seventy.twenty.x.x 12:41, 11 May 2006 (CDT)
 * AGF for Assume good faith
 * CONTENT for Content over presentation
 * NOT for We are not Wikipedia
 * ORO and 1RV for Only revert once
 * ulc (edit: and ULC) for Use lower case
 * YAV and YOU for You are valuable


 * plz make them GW:BLAH or it's pointless Skuld  12:42, 11 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I cannot add namespaces... only people who can poke new values into the interwiki table can do that. Who is the superadmin here? Seventy.twenty.x.x 12:45, 11 May 2006 (CDT)


 * User:Gravewit, but you'll be lucky if you get a response. We need OblivioWiki: links too! Skuld  12:51, 11 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Errr ... enlight me ... why exactly do we need these abbreviations again? --Tetris L [[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L block]] 15:22, 11 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Ease of citation, mainly. Much easier to write GW:1RV than GW:Only revert once. You can even use them in edit summaries for reverts and the like. Seventy.twenty.x.x 15:25, 11 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Just curious, as I haven't played much with namespaces. Why is a namespace required for this? The system provides an edit screen when I go to GW:NOT, from where I could just enter a redirect, correct?  Or is there some system architectural reason to prefer creating the pages within a namespace? --161.88.255.140 15:35, 11 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Hehe my completely uninformed guess: The technicians will come up with some reason that solves a problem you never had but in fact all they do is make normal stuff so complicated that the normal user doesnt understand it anymore and needs the technician. --Xeeron 17:12, 11 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Shucks, my secret is out. Guess I'll have to find a new line of work now. Thanks, buddy. Seventy.twenty.x.x 17:15, 11 May 2006 (CDT)


 * No offense, but IMHO none of the policy articles is cited anywhere near frequently enough to warrant an abbreviation, let alone a namespace abbreviation. Check "What links here" on any of them. --Tetris L [[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L block]] 04:17, 12 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I vote for removing those abbreviation. Really, they aren't needed. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png|User:Gem]] 04:27, 12 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Well if we had like 1000s and 1000s of editors like Wikipedia then I could understand this, but we're not like that... these rules aren't cited as frequently --Jamie 04:32, 12 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Just keep them as normal redirects, they dont hurts anyone. --Xeeron 04:40, 12 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I dislike these. If I write to in a talk page, "We don't do things that way, because we are not Wikipedia," the reason for my refusal is obvious even before clicking the link. The abbreviation requires a clickthrough, and is all-in-all unintuitive.  I for one will never use these, because the abbreviation is harder to remember than the policy itself. &mdash;Tanaric 21:06, 13 May 2006 (CDT)

Build stub clean up

 * The clean up is nearly over now. As you might have noticed, quite a lot of builds were moved to Category:Tested builds indicating they were successfully vouched for. Category:Untested builds was created to replace the old Category:Build stubs. Build stubs is only for real stubs now (in the wiki sence) no longer for unvouched builds. Builds should always be in either tested builds or untested builds AND at the same time in Category:PvE Builds, Category:PvP Builds or Category:Farming Builds.


 * A special note on builds up for deletion: There are a few builds in Category:Candidates for deletion simply because noone wanted to vouch for them. If you feel any of these builds deserve not being deleted, please go to Category:Candidates for deletion and put your vote down on the talk page now.


 * People generally opposed to deleting builds might want to read about Bishops proposal.


 * Admins, please do not delete builds before the 15th please. --Xeeron 07:32, 13 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Update:
 * Thanks to Bishop, there is now a new "build portal" site at Build.

Vehemntly against new skill box IMPLEMENTATION
I want to register that I am disappointed and frustrated that you guys (PanSola, skuld, whoever) implemented the skill boxes in this way. I have nothing against the skill box itself, but against the whole "You can't really edit this page using the edit link on it, you have to use this special link."

Now, we've had this discussion before, and I thought the overwhelming majority of users were against increasing the number of pages that have the "press this special link to edit this page" design. I have not followed the skill boxes discussion closely and I am sure someone will try and point my attention that somewhere a bunch of you got together on the skill boxes and chose A instead of B or skill box 15 or whatever. That's all fine and dandy. My objection, is that the design you guys chose breaks a standard that the community agreed to. One that I am very vehemently supportive of.

I would have appreciated it if you had announced more prominently that such a HUGE change to the site policy is going to take place. I don't know if you can see where this is going, but I can see it very clearly, next will be the beast boxes, then the NPC boxes, then the location articles, then mission overviews and finally the quest pages. All of these can be made to look EXTREMELY cool (and highly uneditable) if we put in enough time into it. That is EXACTLY what I did not want to happen.

I am not going to revert anything until we decide that's what we want to do, but I am THAT much against it that I am willing to revert so much work. --Karlos 22:40, 13 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I agree with Karlos. This present design that PanSola is pushing seems to be designed solely to ease the server load in rendering a page that includes a hundred different skill articles itself as templates, and it fails even in its sole justification because recaches happen more often than article edits. It's using one broken design to justify another broken design. It's too bad that he seems completely closed off to discussion of this topic. 207.241.227.235 22:48, 13 May 2006 (CDT)