Talk:Ghost

I split the article into Undead Souls and Nature Spirits. Both of them are referred to as "Spirits" in the game, and both have the same translucent greenish astral body. I'm pretty sure this is the same "species" we're talking about here, although Nature Spirits are not undead. --Tetris L 22:11, 26 October 2005 (EST)


 * a) This article is about Ghost, not spirit. If you want to make a disambiguation page called Spirit and in it state that there are two kinds of unrelated spirits in the game, Ghost and Nature Ritual spirits, go ahead.
 * b) Ghosts have nothing to do with Nature Rituals. Spirit of Nature's Renewal can't move, can't talk, affects enemies and allies and flat out looks like a totem. Wait, it IS a totem. :) One species is sentient while the other is a collection of pieces of wood and stone.
 * c) Being green and translucent is not exactly a species defining aspect here, otherwise, the Eternals, the Ghosts, the Nature Rituals, the Druids, the Bansihed Dream Riders, the Smite Crawlers would all be one happy species called soup. :)
 * --Karlos 00:08, 27 October 2005 (EST)


 * Agreed -- please keep Ghosts separated from Nature Spirits.
 * Also: Mmm. Soup.  --209.113.159.61 00:47, 27 October 2005 (EST)


 * a) "Ghost" and "Spirit" are clearly equivalent terms. If not, then why are so many ghosts called "Spirit"? For example: Restless Spirit, Restless Spirit (Pre-Searing), Spirit of the Fallen, Tortured Spirit... Also many descriptions for locations and quests, especially in the Underworld, use "Spirit" as an equivalent to "Ghost".
 * b) Nature Spirits are not a collection of pieces of wood and stone. They are noncorporeal, astral beings that can be summoned. And they have the typical translucent look of a ghost. Looks like a ghost. Smells like a ghost. Tastes like a ghost. If you ask me, they ARE ghosts. Also, Nature Rituals don't move, but Druids do. And Nature Ritual Spirits look exactly like a Druid, except for the smaller size. They are clearly related.
 * c) Indeed, I think that various other translucent creatures could be considered "ghosts" too. Note that sentence that I added saying that Ghosts are "closely related to other noncorporeal Undead beings like Nightmares, Smoke Phantoms, Wraiths, etc". --Tetris L 01:00, 27 October 2005 (EST)


 * a) Yes, ghosts are called spirits and nature rituals are called spirits, see what I did in Spirit.
 * b) They are totems, the game calls them totems, they are as lifeless as a piece of rock.
 * c) Well then you're going to have to convince people with your theory before you assume it mainstream. I do not believe Smite Crawlers are Ghosts, I do not believe Banished Dream Riders are ghosts and I certainly do not belive Druids are ghosts. Green and Translucent means that they are not matterial beings. Just like in typical D&D lore Angels are not Ghosts, I don't see that everything noncorporeal has to be a ghost. Where is the basis for this argument other than your assumption? --Karlos 01:14, 27 October 2005 (EST)

a) You said "This is an article about Ghosts, not Spirits". But you agree that Ghosts are also called Spirits. Make sense, please.

b) Did you have a close look at a Nature Ritual Spirit lately?? They look exactly like a Druid, except much smaller. And you're trying to tell me that they have nothing to do with Druids? Why does it necessarily means Nature Ritual Spirits are dead, just because they don't move or talk? It is YOU who is making assumptions here. According to the Wikipedia definition a totem can also be a "supernatural being". "Being" doesn't sound like a dead object to me.

c) The general definition of a "ghost" is very fuzzy, and differs depending on culture. The term blends with many other terms for supernatural beings like daemons, spirits, spectres, etc. One thing that all ghosts have in common is that they live in a paralel dimension (astral, aether, limbo, ... whatever you may call it) to the real world, which is why they have that translucent look and why they are able to appear/disappear out of nowhere. And all the creatures that I listed fit into this desciption.

So far about common language and culture. Now lets have a look at the game. Usually a good way to tell what species a creature belongs to is to look at what Collector Items it drops: If it drops a "Tusk" of some kind, chances are it's a Troll. If it drops an "Eye" of some kind, chances are it's a Rider. If it drops a "Jaw" of some kind, chances are it's a Behemoth. And so on ... you get the idea. Now, my theory is that Ghosts (according to the in-game species definition) drop "Remains" (sometimes called "Remnants" or "Residues"). Go and have a look what creatures drop "Remains". --Tetris L 02:47, 27 October 2005 (EST)


 * I've always thought that all the semi-translucent creatures in the game should be under category:ghosts, but I got shot down with my initial Druid, entry. Thinking about it, I think Category:Ghosts should be changed to Spirits and all these guys go in there.  --Rainith 03:05, 27 October 2005 (EST)


 * a) I said this is the article about ghost, not spirit, if you need to write about spirits, there is an article for spirit. If you need to point out that spirits can be ghosts or nature rituals or vegetables, then say that in spirits, not ghosts. The fact that spirits are also known as ghosts can be mentioned in ghost (which I think it is), but the ARTICLE for spirit, should be written in spirit.
 * b) Did you look at a Bladed Aatxe lately. He looks like the spitting image of a Minotaur, want to theorize about that too? A Smite Crawler looks like a scarb, according to your argument here, he is a scarab, but according to the translucency argument he is a ghost. Is he the ghost of a dead scarab?
 * c) The remains argument is a good one. Things that drop similar remains are similar creatures. So, I believe the Phantom and the Mindblade Spectre are the same species becuase they both drop Phantom Residue, I believe the Bladed Aatxe and the Coldfire Night are the same species because they both drom Demonic Remains. I also believe that the very fact that one is called "Demonic" and the other is called "Phantom" necessitates that they are NOT the same speices. Obviously one is a Demon and the other is a "Phantom". You're seriously going to categorize the Bladed Aatze as a ghost??!
 * If you're saying all "meta-physical" creatures should be categorized as "ghosts" then I believe you are wrong. A ghost is not a demon in any fantasy or cultural setting I know of. In my culture we don't even have ghosts, yet we have a very rich culture about demons (Jinn).
 * --Karlos 03:29, 27 October 2005 (EST)


 * In regards to point c there Karlos, please explain your decision on Crystal Spider as you seem to have done the opposite and decided their species based on what they drop not their name. --Rainith 03:53, 27 October 2005 (EST)


 * What do you mean? I said they drop Encrusted Lodestones, like the Crystal Guardians and they seem to be made of Crystal (so looks and drops match) so I said they were golems. If Bladed Aatxe start dropping Phantom Residue I will consider them to be Phantoms. As long as they are dropping Demonic Remains they are DEMONS. I am consistent. I don't understand your critique. --Karlos 04:30, 27 October 2005 (EST)


 * Sorry, I didn't read it close enough. I thought you said that Phantom and Bladed Aatxe dropped the same thing but were different species.  I wasn't trying to be an @$$, I was just curious on your reasoning (which as it turns out was 100% sound, my reading skills weren't though).  --Rainith 04:50, 27 October 2005 (EST)


 * I will reply to a), b) c) again more in detail tomorrow. I'm too tired now and will go and play the game now instead. But just one thing: I checked in game, and Nature Ritual Spirits DO move. Look closely. They are far from "lifeless as a piece of rock". --Tetris L 05:36, 27 October 2005 (EST)


 * Ok, so they blink everynow and then! They got bad actors to do this part! :) I am not as opposed to the Druid-Nature Ritual connection as I am to the connection between those two and the Ghosts. --Karlos 07:16, 27 October 2005 (EST)


 * Please see Chained Soul for ultimate proof that being "green" and "translucent" is not the defining criterion of a ghost. These are SOULS and there is nothing green or translucent about them. The bottom line is that ANet shared graphical models across many creatures and it is up to us to weed out what each group is based on something deeper than green and transparent or drops "remains." --Karlos 09:17, 27 October 2005 (EST)

My take: Ghosts are spirits of beings who have died. All ghosts are spirits. Not all spirits are ghosts. All ghosts are undead, not all undead are ghosts. There could be spirits who are not ghosts and are not undead. The spirits created by natural rituals are not necessarily Druids, but might simple be created in the image of Druids, and natural ritual spirits are totems, which does not have to be made of rock/wood. -PanSola 06:21, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Ghost as simply spirits of undead
Since Spirit already covers the disambiguation, I think we can safely remove the section on Nature Spirits, and deal exclusively on the undead ones in this article. At least, Category:Ghosts doesn't seem to contain any natural spirits / druids, and I'd like the two to stay consistent. Count down to rewrite the article, 7 days. -PanSola 02:49, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I object! As far as I understand (and I think I presented strong and detailed evidence for it in the discussion above), "Spirit" and "Ghost" are equivalent terms in GuildWars. Nature Spirits are ghosts, and should be mentioned in this article. Infact I think the two articles Ghost and Spirit should be merged, and one of the two should be a redirect. -- 05:42, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
 * In that case I suggest creating a separate article of Spirit (Undead) or Undead Soul or something along that line, and keep Ghost strictly diambiguation just like Spirit, if you think they are equivalent. I personally consider Ghost (the undead ones) as a subset of Spirits, which still seem to stay consistent to the evidence you have presented above.  In any case there is the Chained Souls who currently are considered as ghosts who don't have green translucent body. -PanSola 06:11, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
 * To make it even more complicated, there may be ghosts that are neither Nature Spirits nor Undead. I'm not sure about it.
 * However, I agree we'd need a sub-category for undead spirits/ghosts, because that would be a sub-species of Undead, while other spirits are not.
 * Sigh. Pinning down the sub-species of Undead and Ghosts really is a pain in the ass. We've discussed this numerous times over various talk pages. It is very hard to find out which creatures belong to the same species according to their names, appearance and behaviour, what collectable items they drop, what conditions they are immune agains, whether they leave a corpse or not, whether they take damage from Edge of Extinction and some other evidence. And whatever scheme you use to categorize them, there's always one exception that doesn't fit all criteria. Damn! I'm willing to do some extensive testing to sort out the sub-species of undead, but I'd need some help with this task. -- 06:36, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * So what's the problem of calling that cub-category simply "Ghosts"? Your "strong and detailed evidence" only showed "some members of the Ghost category are named Spirits".  This does not mean equivalency.  Stone Golem is called a golem, but it's a different species from Ice Golem (verified via Edge of Extinction using some middleman), and also different species from Flesh Golem.  Bone Dragons are undead, and they are dragons (not in the game mechanics species sense, but in the role-playing sense), that doesn't make Undead and Dragon equivalent.  -PanSola 07:13, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * "Ghost" is most likely not a species in the sense of the game (verifiable via EoE), because Undead is a species, and some ghosts are undead, others are not. In regards to the various Golems, ... we don't know 100% sure how EoE handle's sub-species. -- 07:56, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Eh, you are mixing up the issue again. We agree there is a sub-category of Undead that are all spirit-looking.  I'm asking what is the problem of calling that sub-category "Ghost", so you can't use "some ghosts are not undead" as an objection, unless there are really creatures called "Ghost" who are really not undead.  The point about various golems is that you can't really argue species based on names.  Stone Golem is NOT a species of Golem (it is of the same species as Stone Elemental).  Flesh Golem is NOT of the species Golem (actually this one I can't prove via EoE, but I hope you agree with me).  Yet they are both called golems.

BTW, is the word "Ghost" actually used anywhere in the game? If not, then this whole debate is senseless. As a non-ingame term we are free to define it however we like, and I believe the most common use of the term "Ghost" means "the spirit/soul of one who has died". If my spirit temporarily leaves my body but I'm not dead (in a coma or something), that spirit is not a ghost. -PanSola 07:23, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Out of the back of my head, I can think of only two examples: The Ghost of Althea and the Ghostly Hero. But I think the term "ghost" is also used in several dialogues, quest description, etc, as an equivalent term for "spirit". Can't provide a quote though. -- 07:50, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, for each instance it occurs, I challenge whether the usage implies equavilence, or subset-ness. Btw, the Ghost of Althea, at least in that screenshot, doesn't look green d-:  "Ghostly" also doesn't mean the same thing as "ghost", even if it's used as the name of a ghost. Specifically, you need to produce an instance where natural ritual spirit (or something that undebatably includes natural ritual spirits) is referred to as ghost.  -PanSola 08:09, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm taking the approach from the other side! :p For me, they are all "Spirits", not "Ghosts"! "Spirit" is the preferred term in the game, while "Ghost" is the exception. Spirit should also be the name of the merged article, if we merge Spirit with Ghost.


 * With the approach above, I now need to produce an instance where a ghost is referred to as a spirit, not the other way round. And that should be easy. :p ;) -- 08:56, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Fallacy. I can easily find a human who is caucasian, but I cannot claim their equavlence.  I can look at a Caucasian, point to him and say "That is a human", but that doesn't make all humans Caucasian.
 * To claim A and B are equavlent, and assume A contains sub-categories of X and Y, you need to find situations where B is used to refer to X AND you need to find situations where B is used to refer to Y. You cannot simply find situation where A is used to refer to B, because B might actually be equavelent to X, and you can easily find situation where A is used to refer to X(=B) but A and X are not equal. -PanSola 09:10, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I think I get your point ... slowly.
 * My main point the whole time was that ghosts are spirits, not primarily the other way round. When this whole discussion was started back in October Spirit referred to Nature Rituals only, and there was no connection whatsoever between Spirits and Ghosts. That's what I spoke up against.
 * Now, if I understand you correctly, you try to say that Ghost is not an equivalent term to Spirit, but that Ghost is a sub-class of spirits?
 * Hmmm ... I think I could agree to use "ghost" for undead spirits only, although, if you look at the meaning of the word "ghost" in pagan cultures, especially nature religions such as norse, celtic, wicca, you'll find a lot of "ghosts of nature" that are not undead: fairies, sprites, pixies, ... Those are called "ghosts" too. But in most other cultures "ghost" is used for undead. -- 12:21, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Glad you can accept the "subset" idea. Now let me know what you think of the Chained Soul below d-: -PanSola 13:15, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

The Chained Soul situation/exception
Since Chained Soul is not translucent nor green, we have the following possibilities:

1. Spirits and Ghosts are actually two different sets. A GREAT majority (99.9%) of ghosts are also spirits, but Chained Soul, which is a ghost, is not a spirit.

2. Ghost is a subset of Spirits. Chained Soul only look like a ghost/spirit due to name, but is not a ghost/spirit.

3. Ghost is a subset of Spirits. A GREAT majority of spirits are translucent and green, but Chained Soul, which is a ghost & spirit, is not translucent nor green.

Thoughts (before actual testing is done that is)?

ps. Subset might either mean equivalence (in which case it's called an "Improper subset") or not (in which case it's called a "proper subset"). For this section the difference does not matter. "B is a subset of A" means "All B's are A's", while the statement "All A's are B's" may or may not be true.