Talk:Main Page

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Gripes, Admins and Improvements
So, we've passed our 6 month anniversary, with very little fanfare (purposefully, to be honest), and it's time for me to ask what bugs you about guildwiki, and mediawiki itself? What could be done better? I plan on starting to modify the engine a little, and contribute more code to the mediawiki project itself, so I might as well start with something close to home.

On the guildwiki side, I'm considering adding the pretty cool open source tool FCKeditor to the edit pages on the wiki. How do you guys feel about this? I've put up a demo here http://www.guildwiki.org/FCKeditor/_samples/default.html

How do you folks think we are in the admin section? Even thought we've got a pretty small ratio of admins:users, I think we're pretty good for now. I've only gotten to ban someone before I was beaten to it once this month. Gravewit 19:49, 19 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Umm, are you sure it would produce pages fully compliant with the media wiki? In the sample, it doesn't produce ... kind of links. Can we adjust that? --Karlos 16:55, 19 November 2005 (UTC)


 * You can check out the talk page and such for it on the mediawiki metawiki, http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:FCKeditor, I'll definately be testing it on my testbed before putting it live, I was just wondering what opinions on it might be. Gravewit 19:15, 19 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I vote no on the FCKeditor. It encourages people to over-format wiki articles.  The vast majority of articles on the GuildWiki are simple text with headings, with a handy infobox. I'd like to keep it that way; adding the FCKeditor would result in people rolling their own format, and that, in no uncertain terms, would be a Bad Thing. &mdash;Tanaric 19:17, 20 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I spose that's a valid complaint. I was more interested in it for the WYSIWYG table formatting stuff, you know? I mean, we have a sort of standard way to present articles. We should put some more work into the style guide, I suppose. I'd planned on modifying it (FCK) to remove all the crap we simply don't need. Gravewit 13:44, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

No way! What possible advantage could that give? Wiki code isn't exactly hard to learn.. 13:05, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Well ... ::cough::
 * Anyway, I prefer wiki code that does not what it is supposed to do because I made a syntax mistake to WYSIWYG that does not what is supposed to do because the programmer made a syntax error. --Xeeron 13:37, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Server Speed Issues
Looks like our speed issues are all taken care of. CPU load is right back down where it should be, since we blocked all the HTTP crawlers. Gravewit 12:19, 17 November 2005 (UTC)


 * For lack of a better word... sexy. :) &mdash;Tanaric 21:50, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Main Page organisation still serving?
Noticed some talk over on the community portal that the Main Page might be due for an update. Can I get some opinions on this? I see that we've now got a whole Category:Lore ("now" being a relative term, mind) which is probably worth organising a bit more and linking off the main. What's up there that isn't needed? What -isn't- that's needed? Nunix 19:16, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

I'll probably sound overly critical here, but since you asked.. --Rezyk 22:54, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) The "Stubs" part, which currently points to Skill_stubs, Attribute_stubs and Location_stubs, would be better off pointing to Category:Stub and Category:Stubs instead, as that's more comprehensive.  To take this farther, Category:Stub and Category:Stubs ought to be merged, too.
 * 2) All the links under "Helping Out" could be folded into How to Help.  Based on its relative traffic, this section doesn't deserve being spread so much out on the main page.  Yeah, it's also there for encouraging helping out -- but it's still not that deserving of so much premium space.
 * 3) To be honest, all of the headings "The Game", "General Information", and "Quick Links" have never helped me -- they don't tell me anything about those lists I don't already expect.  "In-Depth Guides" is more descriptive but still somewhat general, when considering what links it covers.  Personally I see those sections as one mass of 22 links to look through.  Looking at those links now, I think some organization along these lines would be much more helpful: Items (5 links), Characters/Creatures (5 links), Adventuring (4 links), Guides (3 links), News (1 link) and something else for the remaining 4 links (Skills, Elite Skills, Conditions, Slang).
 * Agreed very much with Rezyk, the headlines are not intuitive: Why is the armor list under "The Game", but the unique items list under "Quick links"?. Something else that I am missing on the front page is any PvP content. There are a few decent PvP articles in the wiki, but the front page is purely PvE. --Xeeron 05:32, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Alright, well if two users are all that's going to pipe up, I'll take a look at this on Sunday and likely tidy it slightly; but unless there's a larger consensus, I'm going to assume it's working just fine. If you've got an opinion on this, speak! It is command-ed! Nunix 22:51, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I've always hated the main page. Also, it's protected.--Cloak of Letters 07:45, 19 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree with Rezyk that it's unclear what's the different between the quick links an the not so quick links. It's not a major issue for me. It's very useful and enables people to get to good stuff fairly easily.
 * I would lobby for a new section, but only if there is someone to keep it up to date. Or perhaps a "Did you know" section that quotes a rarely known tidbit from one of the articles randomly. --Karlos 08:08, 19 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree 100% that the structure of the main page rather "fuzzy". I don't get the major difference between "The Game", "In-Depth Guides" and "Quick Links". Most of the articles that are listed would fit into either of the 3 headings.
 * I would prefer if we'd switch to a structure simular to what ArenaNet did in the Online Manual. Some time ago I've started to create an alternative layout. I put it under User:Tetris L/Test. Please see this as a suggestion and inspiration for further discussion. --Tetris L 07:18, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


 * That looks great. And a lot clearer. I'm for it. --Karlos 10:32, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Agreed 100%! That is much better than the current main page.  --Rainith 11:28, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

As to why things are the way they are: the wiki's grown quite a lot since the initial organisation. ;) I've spent some time going through the wiki over the weekend, and yeah, I agree it needs a facelift. "Quick Links" - which I still like, and think I may try and find a place for somewhere in Tetris' setup - was for common links that new users might be looking for immediately without digging through a lot of menus or sub-menus or search results. I'm not totally keen on a lot of indented sub-links on the main page, but I think Tetris has a good setup there, so expect it to go in sometime this week. Nice work, T! Nunix 23:20, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Build
The way we handle builds is, atm, a total mess. Take a look at Category:Builds, or the Build Guide article. Descriptions of the premade builds, mixxed with description of primary/secondary profession combinations, mixxed with some detailed build (of detailed quality...), not very helpful. I suggest making a proper Build Guide article that explains how a build can be created, together with list of builds, where people can put down their own build ideas. OR if I cant convince the majority here that builds are something we would like to have in the wiki, do away with all of the builds and put up a note that we dont like them. --Xeeron 05:32, 18 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I think that build designing is one of the main facets of PvP Guild Wars - which is what the game is all about for many people. A list which, while it would never be comprehensive, covers popular build types (I.E. one build for a Offering of Blood spike healer, as opposed to many slightly different builds) would be useful, as long as it could be kept under control. I argue that as an encyclopedic reference to Guild Wars not including popular builds would be very narrow-sighted.
 * Now how this would be done is pretty tricky. I'd guess that two lists on possibly the Build Guide (or the Category:Builds) article, one of specific builds and one of general builds. Shandy 07:11, 18 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Look, I'll be honest with you Xeeron, it's all your fault! :) You PvP people need to take matters into your own hands. Develop the PvP section into the glorious repository of wisdom it ought to be. That is what a wiki is about. I am no PvP guru and will probably never be. There is no thrill for me in constantly besting other players. The thrill is in questing, and adventure and plot-exposition. Seems Rainith and Tetris are also PvE people.
 * So, it's people like you and Fyren and anyone who is into PvP who will have to literally shape that section. Just as Rainith and Tetris are shaping the collectors info, they are the ones who care most about it. Just as PanSola is shaping the armor galleries, she cares about that, just as I am mercilessly editing the FoW and UW pages.. I care about those.
 * Go ahead! Make the sections as you see fit. Rewrite the Build Guide, re-sort the Builds Category, put life into your favorite section!!
 * This is not to say you are not doing a great job. Your work on the arenas and some of the PvP terms made us credible in that area, to say the least. But neither me, nor Rainith, nor Tetris will be doing a PvP section soon and if we did, chances are, it would be inferior to anything you do. Just my honest opinion. --Karlos 07:19, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Okok, I am on it. ;-)
 * There was some previous discussion about whether to include builds or not, so I didnt want to go ahead reworking it all, only to have everything deleted a bit later. But if we are ok with having builds (which always will be somewhat subjective) in the wiki then I'll try to start it. That being said, I do PvP, but I am not the god of PvP, all help is welcome. --Xeeron 07:56, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
 * But you are the prophet! Preach to us, my brother! :) --Karlos 08:20, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Thou shall go out and look at the Build stubs category and test the builds and vouch for them.
 * Thou shall not put any new build in any other category but Build stubs.
 * Thou shall post PvP build, PvE build and team builds, there is a place for all.
 * Thou shall not label a Profession Combination as a build. --Xeeron 09:04, 18 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Amen, brother Xeeron. :) --Karlos 10:34, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Just wondering, should we separate team builds from individual character builds (as in separate categories)? If not, at least make it obvious in the name of the article whether the build is a team build or an individual build. -PanSola 14:37, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
 * There should be (as in I will make one as soon as the first build leaves stubs) one sub-category for Team builds, one for PvP builds and one for PvE builds, plus one for the premade builds. The builds in build stubs are not ordered, but it should be obvious from the description which is the purpose of the build (and if it is not, maybe the build does not deserve leaving stubs). --Xeeron 15:12, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I was going to hold off until I had finished the skill lists but here's what I was thinking for Builds: User:Cloak of Letters. I got tired of working on it pretty fast.--Cloak of Letters 15:38, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Profession Combinations
While creating the category Profession Combinations I noticed the sorry state most of these articles are in. They are linked to directly from the main profession articles (e.g. Warrior), so maybe we can put something more helpful in there. --Xeeron 15:16, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

More Mods Needed
After the spate of vandalism this morning (see any edit by USER:66.144.41.232) I think we could use one or two more mods around here. Most likely things will start to heat up again as we have just recently been listed as an official fan site. And I think one or two more people who could ban IPs and revert changes with a single click of a mouse would be a good thing. I know in one of the old conversations from around the time when Karlos was made a Mod, someone (I think Tetris L) floated my name as an option. I would be willing to do that if people still think it is a good idea, but even if it isn't me I think we do need one or two more people to take care of stuff like this. --Rainith 13:54, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Rainith being mod = good idea   --FireFox 13:56, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree with both the necessity of more mods (holy s*** at 66.144.41.232) and that Rainith would be great as a mod. - Lunarbunny 14:01, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Yeah Rainith is a good idea. I'd stick my hand up except people are throwing things at me =P (see Community Portal)--William Blackstaff 15:51, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


 * * blush* Thanks for the boost to my self-esteem.  ;)  I feel bad putting my own name forward, but that guy was really pissing me off.  And when I'm at work I usually keep an eye on the wiki, unless I'm really busy, so I could keep an eye out for jokers like that.  --Rainith 16:24, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Aren't your boss a lucky wo/man? d-: --PanSola 16:46, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 * The more I work, usually the more I write off, so by working less I'm actually saving my company money. :P  --Rainith 17:03, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

I suggest at least both Rainith and Tetris L be promoted. I don't know if any of the other admins around used to watch all the edits by non-regulars, but it seems no one is doing it now (I used to). Perhaps start marking edits as patrolled, but I don't know, since I haven't been around. --Fyren 19:13, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree with promoting them both, although I don't think there's much issue about watching edits more closely (Karlos and some non-admins seem pretty thorough). Rather, I think it's more about reducing the mean time until any admin is around, to limit the damage and hassle that can be caused by any one vandal. --Rezyk 20:07, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Yeh both Tetris and Rainith ^^ I thought Tetris already was! 10:45, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

My two doubloons on this: Ok, so they were more like 20 doulboons. :) --Karlos 11:24, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
 * We should not have a knee-jerk reaction to a vandal. Making people admins is a long a term decision. Not to discount any of the suggested names. I thought the regular users did a superb job standing up to those two vandals.
 * We should develop a plan of coverage among the admins such that there is one of them eyeing the changes list at all times. Mostly to watch out for PanSola's edits, but also for vandals. :P
 * In order to do this, we need to evaluate our current staff:
 * Fyren and I are usually around at the same times. I stay up really late at times, but we cover the evening time (US time) till early dawn.
 * Tanaric and Lord Biro and Nunix appear every few days (Biro has been the most inconsistent).
 * Gravewit, I believe, should not be expected to help out in this.
 * So, it is obivous we are undermanned and poorly ditributed. We need indeed at least two more people and preferably, two who are not on at the same time. The area hardest for me to cover is from Dawn till noon (4 AM - 12 PM west coast time). Then from afternoon till evening (3 PM - 10 PM). any help there would be most useful.
 * I believe a certain amount of technical aptitude is good for an admin.
 * My choices would be Rainith, Tetris (especially because of the timezone shift) and the new guy.. User:Deldda_Kcarc.
 * blah, you haven't told me what was wrong with archiving the unique item list talk yet, and so I'm not sure if you are going to revert the armor types talk too and just didn't notice it yet, or they are two different cases one was valid for archiving and the other not. -PanSola 18:53, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

66.144.41.232 for mod =P 14:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Over my dead body =P --William Blackstaff 15:51, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes to William being dead. Err. Yes to 66.144.41.232 being dead. Errr wrong again. Yes to more mods. Ah right =) --Xeeron 16:00, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Buggering Besheba! I'm using Ward Against Xeeron! Nyah!--William Blackstaff 16:14, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

(Note:Moved from Section "Gripes, Admins and Improvements")

As for new admins, I think we could do with a few more. As you said, we have a pretty low admins/users ratio, and about half of our admins visit the site only occasionally or are completely inactive. Yesterdays events (excessive vandalism by 66.144.41.232 / 217.125.198.57 over several hours) showed that a bit closer monitoring wouldn't hurt. Especially because we will see more trolls paying GuildWiki a visit as we grow more and more popular.

If I may suggest a few names for new admins, I'd vote for Skuld, Rainith, Rezyk and Xeeron. In my book they have proven over several weeks to be valuable and reliable contributors and that they can be trusted. Also, the following are rather new, but seem to have some potential as possible future admins: PanSola, FireFox and William Blackstaff. My 2 cents. --Tetris L 10:12, 22 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I feel flattered that some here suggested my name. But I'd rather not become an admin. One reason for this is my recent clashes with Karlos. Currently me and Karlos seem to get along, but in case the cease-fire comes to an end things would be even more complicated. There are other reasons on top of this, that have to do with real life. I'm spending far too much time with this wiki already, and I'm afraight it would increase even more if I feel obliged to monitor it. ;) --Tetris L 12:46, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Tetris and Rainith have both been on my "possible admins" list for a long time. Unless anyone can give me a reason why not, I'll make Rain an admin tonight. Tetris has apparently taken himself out of the running, which is unfortunate despite he and Karlos neigh-legendary feuding. Go ahead and debate the named peoples, here. I want to know what you guys have to say. Gravewit 16:42, 22 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I dunno if I should be speaking up, as I'm a nub to the 'wiki and don't know all personalities, but: one UP vote for PanSola, and one DOWN vote for Deldda Kcarc. &mdash; Deldda Kcarc 16:46, 22 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, my "nomination" is only for "possible future admin", so your vote is wasted (cuz you'll get a new bollet in the future anyways, and this one won't count anymore) d-: -PanSola 18:53, 22 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Well you already have my vote for Rainith so I'm going to chuck in another vote for (since we seem to be talking about more than one) Rezyk becuase Rez never seems to leave here...=D --William Blackstaff 19:29, 22 November 2005 (UTC)


 * HEY! I lost my bureaucrat title!! What's the big idea!! :)
 * I am sorry Tetris took out his name and I am sorry it was because of me. Congrats Rainith. --Karlos 20:06, 22 November 2005 (UTC)


 * You know I only used you as my scapegoat. The real reason is that I'm scared of the responsibility and the fact that I'd have to restrain myself from my usual biased statements and smart-ass behaviour. ;) --Tetris L 06:39, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I can feel the power flowing through me now.... *MUHAHAHAHAHA....cough....hack....* Er... sorry something got caught in my throat. ;) --Rainith 12:51, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Over Automation
I want to express my concern somewhere, so I will do it here. Better than viagra and porn site ads. Recently, I have seen a shift in the wiki towards more and more automation. Templates are created for lots of things as well as includes and so forth. I am greatly worried by this as I feel if the trend continues, Guildwiki will slowly shift from being an open encyclopedia contributed to by all into a closed website maintained by a technically skilled elite. As the pages use more and more complex templates/includes/gimmicks they become harder for the average user to just click "edit" and then edit which defies the purpose of a wiki.

There is great merit in doing a template like BeastInfo or a small short hand template for profession icons. There is a great hazard in turning the templates into forms where you invoke them with parameters and they render the page. I believe the page in general with it's sections and descriptions should be text and should not be some template.

Does nayone see this problem as well? Am I getting too attacked to my keyboard? :) What do people think? --Karlos 09:13, 23 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I think you're being a bit paranoid. Look at Wikipedia. Do you think Wikipedia is difficult to edit for the average user? Its absurd popularity would seem to hint otherwise, even though it has templates and gizmos oozing out of every nook and cranny. Humans are versatile creatures. (Also lazy creatures: hence, templates.) &mdash; Deldda Kcarc 09:18, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Indeed laziness promote the use of templates. But laziness also prevents newcomers from learning to use templates.  I only use the beastbox when I have the time to leasurely copy it from another boss and edit it, because I never bothered to remember its layout/fields.  I think the thing to watch out for is the complexity of templates, no in terms of its internal structure, but in terms of "user interface".  The less fields you have to fill out, the less number of sub-templates you have to remember about, the better.  Personally I think all the "name" field in all type of boxes should be removed, considering  at our disposal.  Image filenames could be standardized by using pagename too, by only specifying the file extension, and get around internal errors by having an extended extension.  But then the number of fields isn't reduced, so the net benefit (not having to specifying image name, only extension) isn't all that worth while.  I'll start to pay attention to compound templates as I run across them and see if there are more ways to simplify them.-PanSola 09:39, 23 November 2005 (UTC)


 * If images with apostrophes still cause the same problem as before, using the page name isn't an option. --Fyren 12:28, 23 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't worry too much about templates, they help people with established formatting and layouts (as well as those who have no idea about wiki coding) and I think they are worthwhile as long as they remain relativly simple and easy to use. Besides people who have no idea how to use them will either 1) learn to use them (Yay! for learning) or 2) not use them and wack the information on the page (in which case over-zelous regular users will mercilessly edit them accordingly..yay! for us!). of course it might help new users (and the not so technically minded) not get so bamboozled if the template creators places some helpful comments in the code using the old html code. --William Blackstaff 10:06, 23 November 2005 (UTC)


 * On one hand I see Karlos' concerns. When I first came up with the idea of "modules" (included sub-articles), my first concern was: Will the average user figure out how to edit that section?
 * On the other hand, it can't be all that difficult if *I* managed to figure it out. I don't consider myself a computer expert by any means. I'm not working in IT and I'm not a programmer. I'm just a mechanical engineer, an average gamer and wiki user. And GuildWiki is my first Wiki. Before August 2005 I had no idea how a wiki works. Now I can handle it, including how to use and even write templates.
 * But then ... the text on my coffee mug says (in large, bold letters): RTFM And that's what I did. Read through a few help pages. I know the average user doesn't like to do that. --Tetris L 10:26, 23 November 2005 (UTC)


 * On the contrary Deldda, it is because I use Wikipedia and edit there at times that I make this concern here. I'll give you several examples:
 * Cool (song)
 * pop
 * United States
 * Gwen Stefani
 * Dallas Austin
 * These are the first five links on the main page right now in Wikipedia, I deliberately chose the first five links so the sample is fair. As you can see, they all have clear definition articles. And even though templates are used for summary info, for categorization info, for whatever, the basic article itself is in plain simple text. That's what I mean. I have never faced the kind of "edit this section somewhere else" and "X is Y in Z but A and B is C" templates we are starting to develop here.
 * I believe it is KEY to the sucess of a wiki that the anonymous edit remains encouraged and facilitated. Others may disagree, but I see us gradually shifting away from that to a more restricted complicated form. --Karlos 10:47, 23 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Ah, in that case, I agree with you. No one should have to go hunting templates in order to simply edit the plainly visible text of the page, for corrections or whatever. I didn't fully grasp that you were pointing out that we had graduated from using templates for infoboxes to playing all kinds of elaborate transclusion games. *shakes finger at PanSolo* &mdash; Deldda Kcarc 11:00, 23 November 2005 (UTC)


 * This is something you run into in the programming world a lot, too. The point of making a template in wikipedia is like writing a framework in, say, C, or a class in PHP. You usually make a template/class/framework if you're going to be reusing the code a whole lot, and it will save a bunch of headaches if you have to change something on a widely and often used bit of code. It's often times much better in such a case to write a reusable bit of code, to save you tons of time and debugging. However- and this is very important- it's not always the case. Sometimes it's better to just hard code stuff. In programming, it's primarily for ease of use and ease of fixing for you, the writer/programmer, but in something like a large-scale wiki like this, it's also in the name of the average user who has something to contribute. There is no debate on whether or not infobox templates are useful, they are, immensely so, but normal plain vanilla text should never need a template. Maybe we need to work on our guidelines a bit more to get a better, more concrete, rule about stuff like this. Gravewit 12:47, 23 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Also: there is nothing that prevents someone from adding information in whatever form they so desire, and then someone else coming along and fitting it into the standard. Honestly, that's my ideal; a lot of anonymous edits and additions, with the "usual crowd" keeping an eye on things to make sure they're easily read and accessed by readers. Now, if we've got something somewhere that says, "Write it this way, or don't write it at all!" please please please point it out to us and we'll give those sections an overhaul. I have no issues with someone plugging in "This skill doesn't work against Toughie McToughpants in the Mixing Bowl of Doom mission," wherever they feel like into an article, and someone else fitting that into whatever template may exist on that page for that information. Nunix 17:52, 23 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Not being a huge fans of templates here either. As soon as editing an article becomes to complicated for an anonymous user willing to spend 5 minutes, we have a potential problem. So it should always be possible to edit the plain text of the articles without problems. A second problem (and maybe thats just me): I have no knowledge of all templates around when they are used, and for which purposed we have some. The nice link someone donated for my userpage stopped working somehow. What we need is a page listing all templates, together with a one line description of what they do. --Xeeron 17:58, 23 November 2005 (UTC)