Talk:Avatar of Balthazar

Would the run speed boost stack with Shouts (edited to not limit to charge)and a stance? If so i see a whole new breed of Forge runners. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Midnight08 (talk &bull; contribs) 12:48, 31 July 2006 (CDT).
 * it probably would, but movement is capped at 150%, i think. either way, 1:12 is a long time to sit around waiting for this form to recycle before continuing the run. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 12:55, 31 July 2006 (CDT)
 * If you spect it to 16 rank, the down time is only 58 secs d-: - 13:00, 31 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Heh so one track minded. Both Dervishes and Paragons have several good speed increases. So why not use a few. Avatar is just a strong one for harder areas. Between that there you have Fall Back combined with Lyssas Haste (2 25% buffs gain 1 energy per second moving lose and gain some health per second moving.), Aria of Swiftness, Enchanted Haste, etc... You could remove hexes with Pious Restoration) (throw on Faithful Intervention and when u need to remove hexes place Lyssas Haste and then Pious to remove it) For anti KD there is Fleeting Stability. (use pious restoration to remove it before the end). All in all i see D/P as being a very stable runner, with healing, hex removal, anti KD, and several good run speed increases coupled with high base hp, and decent al (especially with Balth on). Really I dont see any downsides to this as a runner. Midnight08 13:30, 31 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I've tried using this Form for a runner build but most places that are worth running through have more Mage/Hexxing mobs than physical spikers... thus I found Vow of Silence to be superior to it for most running purposes. I agree 33% is a nice Cruising speed, but if you just want to put distance between yourself and the mobs, then Veil of Thorns and a 25% run bonus works fine too. --ilr

This basically forms the most ridiculous tank around. Is that its aim? *grin* Kessel 05:50, 1 August 2006 (CDT)

holy damage?
Is this actual holy damage, or it light damage like Judge's Insight? -- Gordon Ecker 20:17, 1 August 2006 (CDT)
 * It's not confirmed whether Judge's Insight is Light damage or Holy damage, and most likely won't be without an official word. My guess is that Holy damage isn't always armor ignorant and that it depends on the wording if it is or not. Just a thought I got today though, and hasn't been given a serious thought yet.


 * For example; "Target foe takes 40 holy damage": Armor ignorant. "This skill deals 40 holy damage to target foe": Not armor ignorant. "Target foe receives 40 holy damage": Not armor ignorant. "Attacks deal holy damage": Not armor ignorant.


 * Or something like that atleast. &mdash; Galil  20:23, 1 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I don't remember where the discussion was, but as I understand it, we came to the conclusion that holy damage is not completely armor ignoring. Rather, it treats AL as 60 before armor penetration (Smite has been confirmed to get AP from Strength). However this could also be the result of a flag that treats pre-penetration AL as 60 that's set on most holy damage skills have rather than an inherent property of holy damage. Anyway, did anyone check whether it ignores armour and / or treats AL as 60 like most holy damage skills, or just ignore physical and elemental AL bonuses and do extra damage vs undead? -- Gordon Ecker 20:47, 1 August 2006 (CDT)


 * The "treats Armor as 60" is the most misleading conclusion ever to visit the GuildWars damage discussion. And I don't know who you meant by "we", but I have always argued against it.  JI does NOT treat armor as 60.  Other skills simply have an Armor Effect of 1 (AL = DL) which makes armor itself moot. - 21:52, 1 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I think the only reason Smite gets AP from Strength is because it's specifically typed as an "Attack". Compared to Banish or Holy Strike, it always deals the same damage to any target (pending damage reduction skills). --Vortexsam 22:54, 1 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Sorry about that, talk:Judge's Insight said holy damage treats AL as 60. The claim that JI itself treats AL as 60 before penetration was refuted, but the claim that every other Smiting Prayers skill treats AL as 60 was unchallenged, so I assumed that this claim was correct, "we" meant "the half dozen people who responded to the claim on talk:JI that holy damage treats non-undead AL as 60 without refuting it". The thing about Smite getting AP from Strength is from talk:Strength, and has either been changed or was a bogus claim to begin with. And "most holy damage skills" meant "pretty much everything except JI". Anyway, there's still the question of whether the damage treats Armor Effect as 1 like every pretty much every holy damage skill except JI or if it works like light damage and JI without the armor penetration. -- Gordon Ecker 23:36, 1 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Agree that the initial question remains valid. - 23:44, 1 August 2006 (CDT)

Bleh. This question wouldn't even come up if people wouldn't be so stuck on their stupid idea, that holy damage ignores armor. All kinds of crazy theories have been sprouting up in JI talk pages. Here's the deal: Skill added damage always ignores armor UNLESS it is specifically stated, that the extra damage is of elemental or physical type. Base attack damage always counts armor regardless of type. So in this case it just turns attack damage type to holy, which means it still counts armor, it just does double vs undead and warriors don't get any benefit from absorption runes, shield damage reduction and their +20 vs physical. --Spura 06:06, 25 September 2006 (CDT)
 * And that assumption is just wrong aswell see lightbringers gaze. 62.253.96.47 21:46, 4 November 2006 (CST) Ansi

I went and used Wild Blow on the suit of 15, 35, and 55 armor targets in Churhir Fields or whatever it's called (the one beside Kamadan) while under the effects of Avatar of Balthazar (no other buffs, scythe mastery 15, max damage 15^50 scythe with no armor penetration) and dealt 135 damage to the 15 armor suit, 108 to the 35 armor and 77 to the 55 armor. This would suggest it does not ignore armor.

-- Colonel Popcorn 19:12, 12 November 2006 (CST)

So... I don't have a Dervish, so do you use it, it is disables for 120 seconds, then takes another 30 seconds to recharge? Forgive my ignorance. Urock 23:50, 21 March 2007 (CDT)


 * Recharge time only takes place if it is interrupted. Otherwise the recharge and disable times are completely separate - only the disable time counts after it is successfully activated. --Armond Warblade (talk) 20:19, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

Sounds good. I plan to start a Dervish soon and a two and a half minute recharge wouldn't be worth it imo. Thanks! Urock 22:02, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

Whilst?
What's with the liberal use of the word "whilst" throughout GuildWiki? Are we speaking olde english now? I noticed it in the footnote for the image in this article, among numerous other places. The word is "while" and the present day is 2006. Tarinoc 04:05, 17 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Some speakers of English are not American. --Fyren 04:10, 17 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I might have to colour your armour grey! &mdash; Skuld 04:21, 17 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Well... "whilst" sounds encyclopedic. "While" sounds like a lower form of english (compared to a classy "whilst"), although it isn't as bad as "fo' shizzle." -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|||My Talk]] 17:49, 18 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Whilst is simply more formal. Mask Of Insanity 07:31, 18 December 2006 (CST)
 * I use the word "whilst" at every opportunity, whether speaking or writing. It's just one of those words I like. Kind of like "conducive" (a real word) or "crotchular" (not a real word, but fun to use in conversation). Hashmir 22:35, 10 January 2007 (CST)

Not everyone is from America... Some people are so ignorant... And grey looks better than gray. Though american, I though the -our looks fun. --Skax459 16:21, 23 May 2007 (CDT)

New Spell Casting Cost
Avatar of Balthazar now has a 15e Casting cost (up from 5e) and a 10 second Recharge (same for all forms). Will that make any difference whatsosever? --Zinger314 09:57, 23 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Doubt it, but it's still up there on my favorite forms list, alongside Lyssa's and maybe Melandru's. Extra AL, extra speed, and holy damage, ouch. :D DancingZombies 20:58, 23 September 2006 (CDT)

Would expertise work to get it lower on energy? because it's a form not a spell? 131.174.121.225 16:09, 29 September 2006 (CDT)
 * It shouldn't; Expertise now only works with the things specifically stated in the description. Hashmir 22:36, 10 January 2007 (CST)

WHILST avatar = primary attribute linked to dervie. thus if you somehow manage to use both you will have nil mysticism which'll give you about 12 seconds.
 * ahem*- expertise = primary attribute of ranger

HOW?!
How do you have this information? Are forms available in the preview event? -Sakan 04:49, 24 September 2006 (CDT)
 * PvP? &mdash; [[Image:Fin_sig.gif]] kyrasantae   04:50, 24 September 2006 (CDT)
 * PvP I'd say :) EDIT: Ninja'd! Asmodeus 04:50, 24 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Hehe. Can you tell I'm a PvE player? --Sakan 04:58, 24 September 2006 (CDT)

Keeping AoB up longer?
I was wondering, does Echo copy Forms? (not Arcane Echo, i mean the elite skill, Echo) if so, a D/Me could try Avatar of Balthazar, Arcane Mimicry, Arcane Echo, and copy Echo off of a teammate, use Arcane Echo, then Echo, then the Form, then the Arcane Echoed Echo, and then the Echoed Form, so you should have just 10-20 or so seconds of downtime, its complicated, but would it work, and is it worth it? --Terrifi Cani 11:44, 2 October 2006 (CDT)
 * No, it is not worth it &mdash; Skuld 11:55, 2 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Ever thought about Echo being an Elite itself? So you can't use it with the Elite Forms. Even if possible I guess the "disable for 120 seconds" would disable the copy itself, too. myko 10 October 2006
 * *sigh* dont people read anymore? Yes Echo is elite, but look closely at the skills he proposed.  Echo isn't one of them.  You got Echo in there by using Arcane Mimicry on an ally using Echo.  Still, its a lot of work to go through just to try to keep one skill up.&mdash; [[Image:Azroth sig.png||builds]] Azroth  [[Image:Azroth sig2.png||talk]]  23:44, 10 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Yes it is a lot of work, i'm just suggesting possibilities, i doubt it'd ever take off.. and a simple interrupt would kill the whole thing. Terrifi Cani 14:54, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Echoing forms is useless, to get any advantage out of echoing a form your Mysticism would have to be at either 1 or 0, due to the time constraints created by Echo. At this level of Mysticism, between both the skill and its echo, you could spend, at most, 36 seconds in a given form. More time in any form could be achieved, and at a cheaper cost, by simply raising Mysticism to 6, at which point forms last 39 seconds.. --KeeseroGuan 22:51, 22 November 2006 (CST)
 * It's called "waiting until the echo is about to run out before casting it". It works well with things like Spell Breaker. With the right spells and equipment and timing you get only a few seconds down time with it. I think the plan would work, and no it's not too complicated. Might be good for two-man running teams (if there would be such a thing). --Armond Warblade (talk)
 * Doh, I just saw what I was missing. Still, an increase in 18 seconds from 83 to 101 isn't, in my opinion, all that substantial, especially when you consider the downtime required to get everything set up again. --KeeseroGuan 12:35, 23 November 2006 (CST)
 * Keep in mind that the form doesn't actually take effect until the end of casting - thus, an extra 20 seconds per echo (assuming Echo lasts 20 seconds - I haven't read the skill in a while, it could be more), meaning an extra 40-ish seconds. And apologies for my snippyness earlier, jetlag is evil. --Armond Warblade (talk) 14:54, 23 November 2006 (CST)
 * Echo lasts 30 seconds, so you're really buffing the time up by 50 seconds if you time it right. --Armond Warblade (talk) 14:55, 23 November 2006 (CST)
 * Don't worry about the snippiness, I don't mind, and we all get like that sometimes. Yeah, I just re-read the Echo article. Can you tell I don't use the skill much? --KeeseroGuan 20:03, 23 November 2006 (CST)
 * Can you tell that I really need to stop advertising myself as an echo nuker when I'm in E/Me mode? :P --Armond Warblade (talk) 00:31, 25 November 2006 (CST)

Nerf
I reckon this is going to be hugely nerfed when they balance the nightfall skills, probably a much, much lower effective time. So I really don't think that it's worth developing a build for it -Sakan 07:17, 9 November 2006 (CST)

So it gives it same armor as warrior... so? --Silk Weaker 07:41, 9 November 2006 (CST)

So your argument is, "There's no point using this because in my expert opinion it will surely be nerfed"? All the Forms last the same amount of time, and this isn't even the most potent (I'd name Avatar of Melandru for that, and its Energy cost is appropriately higher). Quite apart from that, the Forms turn you into a vessel of divine might. They're supposed to be powerful. :P Arshay Duskbrow 13:01, 9 November 2006 (CST)


 * Oh I think it's definitely worth using, I just don't think that I'll put in as much effort designing a dervish build around it as I did for builds with my other characters, because the dervish is going to cop some massive pain from ANet in the next skills update. As far as Melandru vs Balthazar goes, they're for very different things. For general usage though, I much prefer AoB, and it's fantastic for slapping rotscale and his cronies around. -Sakan 04:52, 10 November 2006 (CST)
 * I dont think it was ever really worth using....melandru's and dawanya's are better for tanking, and greneth's is great for pvp. this is just easy to use.--Coloneh RIP[[Image:Coloneh.png]] 13:20, 25 December 2006 (CST)
 * Holy damage and extra armor are always nice, though. Not to mention the extra speed against kiters. --Armond Warblade (talk) 16:42, 30 December 2006 (CST)

lookalike
The image on the avater looks like Koss --{{P}Sigm@ 16:20, 28 December 2006 (CST)
 * The picture is quite obviously of the God of War and Flame himself. 68.53.168.153 15:11, 7 February 2007 (CST)

Odd effect...
If you get hit while Balthazar is ending (last second or 2, I'm guessing) it changes you the bright color red you get when you attacked. It stays on until you leave the explorable area or mission. Did anyone else notice this glitch? (I'll upload a picture if needed.) -- B  a  r  r  a  g  e
 * yes, this happens with all the forms. I noticed beck when i was using Melandru before i could get to a decent elite cap.--Coloneh RIP[[Image:Coloneh.png]] 14:17, 26 February 2007 (CST)

Quicker recharge
I posted something similar in Avatar of melandru, but this time as it happened to me, I capped it. here are the two cases: and  As you can see, in both captures, I'm in the Balthazar form, and yet the form is recharged on my skill bar. I dont know how to explain this. My theory is that the skill was interrupted BEFORE it deactivated itself for 120 seconds, but AFTER it took form. Anyone had any similar expiriences?

Morale boost, my friend Mr. Mango 17:16, 12 March 2007 (CDT)


 * Seeing the place you are in, you have probably killed one of the low level bosses there without even noticing it. Foo 05:45, 13 March 2007 (CDT)


 * Yeah, I'm guesing you're right - I went to cap an elite today with Avatar of Balthazar on, and as soon as I capped it (well, and after I killed the boss I guess) the avatar was rechaged. The instant recharge on morale boost doesn't seem to be in the description. That makes it also a useful skill for fighting then. But does it recharge on any morale boost or only on boss kills? -Milcho 06:11, 13 March 2007 (CDT)


 * Any Morale Boost will recharge all your skills. --Armond Warblade (talk) 00:23, 23 April 2007 (CDT)

Dead Balthazar
If you die just as you finish activating a Form you'll stay that way when dead, as the de-activation animation that occurs when you die in a Form apparently can't overlap the activation one that happens when you enter one. 06:39, 13 March 2007 (CDT)

Cutscenes
Anyone have any idea about the note that was just added about cutscenes? I have no idea. Maybe it just changes your player model and leaves the effect on you? --Fyren 11:24, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
 * There was a time I was in Balthazar Form during a cinematic. It was in Factions, I think at Sunjiang Distirct. If only I had a picture :-P -X H K
 * I don't have a dervish. Could you go try it out in one of the first missions in one of the campaigns to see?  --Fyren 21:12, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
 * I don't think it works anymore. -X H K
 * Last time I was in a form when a cutscene started (it was skipped within a few seconds, well within form time), my form disappeared when the cutscene started (was not on me when it was over). It is highly annoying when it happens, especially if you were just a few seconds into the form.  This happened a few times since January, but I haven't tried it in last month.  Queen Schmuck 01:30, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

similar
added armor of mist as both share +armor and +33% move


 * I'll add it &mdash; Skuld 15:44, 6 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Oh, right, misread :P &mdash; Skuld 15:45, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

Mini hero avatars
I had noticed a teammates Melonni using Avatar of Dwayna seemed to be too small in the form. When I capped AoB on my Derv I tested this and found that heroes are, indeed, smaller in forms. At first I thought it was based on Mysticism, but in the pic below, Melonni has higher Mysticism than I and Olias and Jin have none, yet they are all equal size.



Zalaeth 03:24, 20 April 2007 (CDT)

I noticeded the same when i went AoG(renth) in "the wall" mission in prophecies, i was even bigger than the normal players (this i did on a paragon), and i don't mean the difference that you can set up when creating a character, but i was really larger than normal.


 * That depends on the scaling you used when creating a character. I think all heroes are medium sized. Can't confirm the hero size though.

Pimp Sword that i WANT!
If you check out page 20 in the nightfall manuscipts, you'll see a massive sword being held by the AoB to represent Balthazar. Can any1 inform me if this sword is in fact a real sword in the game, as it looks as if ANet just took a screenshot to use in the book. The skin on that sword is really desirable.--24.166.100.250 14:54, 6 May 2007 (CDT) oops, forgot to log in.--Idiot 14:55, 6 May 2007 (CDT)


 * I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but while that sword model is indeed a screenshot of an actual in-game resource, it's not something that drops. The picture you're looking at is showing what the Ghostly Hero's sword would look like if it wasn't blue and translucent.  Since the sword model is already in the game it may become avaiable in the future, but right now it's not. -Gildan Bladeborn 15:25, 6 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Meh, oh well. Damn good skin tho =/ --Idiot 22:05, 6 May 2007 (CDT)


 * I think it is a rusetd Wingblade Sword, probably wrong though. Solus  [[Image:DiscipleSymbol2.jpg|19px]] 07:43, 17 June 2007 (CDT)

Inspiration For Balthazar Form
It just occured to me that this avatar may have been inspired by Skeletor in the MOTU movie made back in the late 80's. When Skeletor turned into a god at the climax of the film. The helmets bear a striking resemblence to eachother. If you can find a copy of the movie you should check it out. It's quite hard to find any images on the net so I made a few SS for anyone interested: Closeup Pic 2 Pic 3 Pick 4

What do you guys think?--The King Tarosian 05:10, 31 May 2007 (CDT)
 * What about the rest of the body? --Kale Ironfist 05:42, 31 May 2007 (CDT)

I think it looks more like "Gerard Butler" in any of his scenes from the "300" movie where he is shouting. Does anyone else agree? --[anonymous] 20:54, 17 June 2007 (EST)
 * Omfg this skill was here before 300, why do people think everything is a reference to it? Lord of all tyria 06:50, 17 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I did a quick look into this and from the information I found [the internet can be incorrect at times though] the first trailers of the 300 started appearing in late 2005 and the nightfall PvP trial weekend was "July 28 – 30, 2006" and considering how often "Gerard Butler" screams in the trailers it is a possibility following this timeline. --[anonymous] 21:10, 17 June 2007 (EST)
 * -_- You're all looking too hard, there's not always a reference to everything in Guild Wars. -- L u i g i  [[Image:Luigi shodansig.jpg]] (T/C) 18:11, 28 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Not a reference, but there was a comic 300 before the movie foo'.

Snare Issue
I was questing earlier with Avatar of Balthazar, and I got hit by a 66% reduction in movement speed Hex (by a skale, near Yohlon). I noticed that, with the Avatar up, you move ridiculously slowly, far far more than 66%. I can only assume this is because it takes 66% of your INCREASED speed, which would be a large number (if we give speed a m/s velocity) and then subtracts that from your form-free walking speed. Could anyone check this out? Might have been an isolated incident.
 * All movement speed modifiers stack like that. You should be moving at 1 * (4/3) * (1/3) = 4/9, or 44%, of normal speed.  --Fyren 19:08, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

Do AoB and Eternal Aura make the PvE warrior obsolete?
With avatar of balthazar and the new eternal aura, i dont see a use for warriors anymore in pve. with AoB on, a dervish would have 110 AL while a warrior has 80. Even with the warrior's +20 vs physical, AoB outmatches it. Holy damage means more dps vs enemy warriors. 4 pips of energy regen allow more constant attack skill spam. Dervishes have better self heals than warriors (natural healing, mystic regen, vital boon pious light etc) who sometimes have to rely on healing signet, which leaves them awfully vulnerable.Scythe allows for natural AoE damage. Seems to me dervishes can now take and do more damage than warriors in pve. I'm of course biased because i play dervish and not warrior and i'm sure there are things im missing here...if they could be pointed out that would be greatKarmapolice 11:50, 23 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Ok, i got an idea, you and my guildie(who can easily tank 5, 6, 7 people in AB) can go into FOW together and take turns, he'll tank with his war and you try to out tank him. Consdering Defy Pain kicks the shit out of this when it comes to tanking, i'd say no, warriors are not useless, and because warriors are better off with a shield than Dervish a Warrior has 116 vs physical, more than derv with AoBal, toss on Defy Pain and you have roughly 700 health with 136 armor vs physical, and 116 armor vs elemental, UNLESS they have Sentinel's Insignia or Knight's Insignia, and then the reduction is much more than AoBalthazar. No one will ever out tank a Warrior so long as the Warrior and the other person have the same amount of skill. Even with AoBal maintained, you can't outtank a war with Defy Pain.--Darksyde Never Again 21:05, 29 July 2007 (CDT)
 * Bugger all that. If you need a tank, you run Obsidian Flesh. If stuff isn't hard enough to warrant using Flesh, then you don't need a tank and you'd be better off with your frontliners doing what they do best - killing shit. StormlordAlex 18:58, 8 August 2007 (CDT)
 * What's laughable is that you guys consider AoB or Defy Pain to be usable (not you Alex). Both are 'alright' elites but nothing you would use considering there are far better elites to use. --Blue.rellik 19:02, 8 August 2007 (CDT)
 * They're probably the same guys that use Endure Pain at the -START- of battle, haha oh man.. Zulu Inuoe 16:30, 9 August 2007 (CDT)
 * What?!??!! That's so stupid, you're obviously meant to use Signet of stamina --Blue.rellik 17:36, 9 August 2007 (CDT)

PvE War is never obsolete because of Deep Wound. (T/C) 16:37, 9 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Avatar of Melandru + Wearying Strike. Armor is a pain, but the extra health provides a buffer so that prots come in, and when they end, they fuel the Mysticism bonus. --Kale Ironfist 20:26, 9 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Conviction could be useful with AoM. Makes you pretty dang durable --Blue.rellik 21:36, 9 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Seeing as the question was "Will AoB replace PvE war", your point is moot :p [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 13:56, 11 August 2007 (CDT)
 * AoB+Conviction is worthless anyway due to the armor cap oops thought you said AoB not AoM --Gimmethegepgun 13:57, 11 August 2007 (CDT)

Although not much of a bit deal, also remember that Scythes have crap min damage compared to most other weapons, and your chance of getting a critical hit decreases vs higher level enemies so that reduces their damage a bit since most PvE enemies are 24+ level enemies. Zulu Inuoe 18:31, 10 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Good point --Gimmethegepgun 13:57, 11 August 2007 (CDT)

warrior in pve is imho pretty obsolete. dervish is so much better and more variable than a warrior. besides: a scythe hits up to 3 enemies and does - what i experienced - so much more damage than a warrior. try avatar of lyssa + nice attack skills like chilling victory + hero with splinter weapon. this is uber pwnage, this is madness! SPARTA!!

Attack Speed
Does this skill give a boost to attack speed or is movement defined exclusively as running? 69.112.29.153 04:18, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It's just running speed Blue.rellik 04:24, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Aob or AoL
Avatar of b or avatar of lyssa? in attacking and tanking--Balistic Pve 04:35, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Tanking: AoB. Damage dealing: AoL.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]]Entrea Sumatae  [Talk]  04:53, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Tanking sucks, don't waste your time. Mr. Mango 23:19, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Try saying that after a mob of monsters kills your monks and you wipe a mision.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]]Entrea Sumatae  [Talk]  23:22, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * average of the two which is better for pve?--Balistic Pve 02:53, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Get better monks, sigh... Honestly guys, it's PVE, not very hard. --Mr. Mango 02:56, 28 March 2008 (UTC) (use protection) (bottom line, tanking sucks)
 * If I used my derv for PvE anymore, I'd pick Balthazar, but only because I'm lazy and c-space all the time. --Macros 02:57, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Add comments at the BOTTOM, Mango. In any case, you never do elite areas, do you? You need tanks there. In my opinion, AoB is better, tanks are good (no matter what Mango says), and it will keep you from dying so easily. For the most part, you can count on a Nuker to do the damage, so AoL isn't really needed.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]]Entrea Sumatae  [Talk]  03:01, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Fail. --Macros 03:02, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't blame me, blame GuildWiki's chronic inability to edit conflict.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]]Entrea Sumatae  [Talk]  03:07, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Yarly. I EC'd 3 times to fix Aviator's picture, then he just overwrote me :P --Macros 03:09, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I posted there because I was responding to you. Now. PUGs use tanks because they have crappy monks and often bad players that aren't smart. Look at this: (no I'm not in there) http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/9594/urgoz44kx3.jpg http://img358.imageshack.us/my.php?image=epicfowtimehz7.jpg No tanks there, just physical damage owning face the way it is supposed to be played. Tanks are a waste of a slot. Bring prot spirit, a cover enchantment and send in the warrior before the rest of the team for sure, but let warriors and dervishes do their jobs by dishing out the highest damage evar. Nukers don't do as much damage as a good warrior, dervish, or sin. AoL deals great damage. Mr. Mango 04:14, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * OK then, you DO acknowledge the need for tanks. It is true that there are better and worse ways to tank (Having a warrior devoted to tanking is a worse way), but if you don't at least have some kind of non-squishy frontline, you're screwed. Overall, having the dervish bring 2 skills for a constant massive damage reduction and speed boost is a fairly good way of getting a tank.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]]Entrea Sumatae  <font color="#4682b4">[Talk]  04:25, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * You call that tanking? I only think of tanks as people "dedicated to contain damage", but ok if prot spirit and a good monk makes a tank then sure. I guess an imbagon is another tank then. I guess you think the monks/backline should be focused on other things, not providing the melee the help it needs to kill monsters.