Talk:Warden

Do Wardens count as Plants? I think I heard/read that somewhere. Anybody know for sure?


 * I doubt it. The manual says they may have once been human. Still, a test with the much-dreaded (weapon of pruning) can easily answer that. --Karlos 10:32, 18 June 2006 (CDT)

Ugh..
They only have 7 professions. Where is the Maddened Bone Warden? Or the Warden of Carcasses??!! :) --Karlos 23:39, 21 June 2006 (CDT)

No Monks?
The warden page lists "There are no Monk or Necromancer Wardens in the game so far. However, the Ritualist Wardens provide some healing support." However I linked here from Jayne Forestlight's page and he is a Boss Monk and a Warden. Should this page be changed? --Mcbain68 11:25, 22 June 2006 (EST)
 * It is generally well known that the bosses of each species don't follow the overall profession scheme of the species. So I think the note is okay. Feel free to add a ".... (except bosses)" for clarity. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 00:52, 23 June 2006 (CDT)

Madden
Somehow I still like the old look of the splitted table better... could be just a subjective bias though. - 22:07, 22 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Why do you like the old split better? The reason I merged them is that the old table implied that the maddened wardens and the wardens were somehow different. This is not true, all the wardens have been corrupted by Urgoz' influence. And since they are wardens like all other wardens, I didn't understand why we had them in a separate table. --Karlos 00:10, 23 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Ok, I think your questions helped me figure out what I don't like about it.
 * 1. For the splitted tables, each table simply displays the links by the "keyword", with "Warden of " and "Maddened Warden", and it was short and sweet.
 * 2. The two groups don't mix. Their different naming convention give an implication that the two groups are of different hierarchical systems.  They may all be followers of Urgoz (or all be corrupted by Urgoz), but it doesn't feel like they belong to the same force/army.  One group is like close guards of Urgoz, the other group feels pretty independent (despite who ultimately is their leader).  And you might think I'm being too literal/picky with words/semantics again, but just because they are all corrupted by Urgoz, doesn't necessarily mean they are all mad.
 * It might help the discussion greatly if in-game text that describes Urgoz's background/history were somewhere on the wiki. - 04:23, 23 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I think your analysis is flawed in a few ways:
 * a) The Wardens are attacking humans all across the forest and Urgoz is blamed for that.
 * b) The Dredge in the Warren are "maddened" too, and we know the Dredge do not serve Urgoz, in fact, we know from the Temple of the Dredge quest that the Wardens attack the Dredge and harrass them like all other "intruders" in their forest.
 * --Karlos 05:37, 23 June 2006 (CDT)


 * I wasn't trying to imply "maddened" creatures are all of the same group/force/army. I was trying to argue that the existence of "Maddened blah Warden" implies "Warden of Blah" are not maddened, merely corrupted.  And I think those who are mad and those who are not mad could be considered different forces/groups/armies, especially when their units never mix.  Besides, we can blame Morgoth (sp?) for Feanor's (sp?) "corruption", even though Feanor doesn't fight for Morgoth. - 05:47, 23 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Here is a screen shot of Vash's dialog. I am too lazy to type it in right now. Vash is the elite mission access guy in Hzh:
 * [[image:Vash_dialog.jpg]]
 * I think your theory is unfounded, and I think this debate over perceived semantics that have a 5% chance of being true is not very fruitful. The example from LotR is not even in the same area code as the example here. Urgoz is like Feanor, he is corrupted by something deeper. The emergence of both Kanaxai and Urgoz at the same time as evil corrupt beings and the corruption of Urgoz coinciding with the Jade Wind, all of this is not by accident. Do not forget the Fortune Teller. --Karlos 00:17, 24 June 2006 (CDT)
 * Thanks for the image (-: ... wait, this doesn't mention that the Wardens are corrupted by Urgoz. Is there another NPC that provide that tibid? - 00:49, 24 June 2006 (CDT)
 * ... wait, are you now arguing that the Wardens perhaps weren't corrupted by Urgoz?? I couldn't quite tell what exactly you are trying to convey with that last sentence. - 01:01, 24 June 2006 (CDT)


 * "Urgoz and his Wardens." i.e. All wardens belong to Urgoz. i.e. Mildly Upset Earth Warden, Angry Earth Warden, Wrathful Earth Warden and Maddened Earth Warden are all Urgoz's Wardens and are all corrupted. The higher level ones are so corrupt they have gone insane while the lowest level one have just become obnoxious. All the same Wardens, all follow the same lunatic and all of them are the same species. I suggest we drop the whole "different breed of Wardens" until there is a single shred of evidence that they are, other than that the existing in-game texts leave a 2% chance that it might be true.
 * I believe the idea is that the closer one gets to Urgoz's lair the crazier creatures become. If you follow the Wardens' levels they start out level 18 in Arborstone and then increase in level until in Mourning Veil Falls they are all level 24. It's in Amatz Basin (bottom of the map to the south) that the talk about Urgoz's influence raising the dead can be found. That mission there is also where the Wardens are flat out attacking the Kurzicks and driving them from their homes. In Urgoz's Warren itself, you are constantly heading south. This leads me to believe that his Warren is somewhere at the southern end of the presently explored Echovald Forest. This is why the further south you go the crazier creatures get. This is my extrapolation based upon the findings I just mentioned. --Karlos 01:19, 24 June 2006 (CDT)


 * Um, "Hunter Jones and his hounds", "General Buzztang and his millitia", I don't see phrases of the format "A and his B" to imply all be belong to A. BTW, are the Wardens corrupted by Urgoz, or are they corrupted by whatever is corrupting Urgoz, or is it unknown?  Right now articles on the wiki are written as the first (wardens are corrputed by Urgoz), but some of the stuff you have been writing above seems to suggest it is possible that the Wardens (regardless of whether all of them belong to Urgoz or not) may have been directly corrupted by whatever corrupted Urgoz, as opposed to being corrupted by Urgoz.  I'm highly curious about this latter point now. - 01:26, 24 June 2006 (CDT)


 * The manual says they have been driven mad, Urgoz says "my wardens", Vash says "Urgoz and his wardens", Vash says Urgoz has been corrupted. How about, you bring your characters to Cantha, check out the scenery and the NPCs. Build a case that is based on something someone in the game actually said, not some sentences about Hunter Jones added to a theory based on LotR.
 * The model I see is that Urgoz is the "spirit" of the Forest. He is the protector of the forest and his agents are the Wardens. Prior to the Jade Wind, there were no Wardens outside of his control, i.e. Wardens who are protecting nothing. When the wind swept, he was either driven mad by the destruction of the forest (theory offered in the manual), or corrupted and turned malicious (from Vash's words that he is little more than a demon, and from what happened to Kuunavang). Either way, the Wardens, who are his minions/servants/creations become twisted and corrupted too. The bond between them, if I had to guess, would be like the bond between "Forest Spirits" and "Dryads" found in many D&D settings. The Wardens themselves resemble Dryads in that they are humanoid and yet have a "foresty" look about them (of course Dryads are usually women, the Wardens are all men, an interesting twist, I think). --Karlos 02:49, 24 June 2006 (CDT)