User talk:Entropy/sabway

Sabway is great fun to use in tandem with 2 Rt/N MM bombers. Sure, Olias kills himself for ~40% with BotM, but stuff dies so insanely fast <3 Or take 4 plain MMs, mainly with Fiends. Yaay. --- -- (s)talkpage  12:16, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I still don't understand how you get enough bodies for that sort of thing. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 19:44, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Give Olias Vengeance. I've cleared HotS with and without sabway, never taking more than 2 healers, which is why your 3-monk setup the other week was so amusing to me. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 22:58, 24 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Why Vengeance...? Also, Entropy; Jagged Bones helps keep minions alive, and rolling groups within mere seconds creates more than enough bodies :P
 * I never take more than 2 Monks unless I don't take any form of defense besides that (I usually have wards or an Aegis somewhere). Or if I go into SoO. 2 Hench Monks and 3 Smite Heroes makes stuff explode.
 * On the article: I never get any deaths whatsoever on the Fiery Gauntlet part... Just stand in front of the golem so it cannot move when you want to take down a hostile golem. And when you need to walk along the path, just inch forward, keeping yourself just in front of the golem with enough space to walk. Sure, it isn't fast, but nothing will die unless you don't take any Monks.
 * When you know you're facing Hexes, be sure to change some skills around so you have some Hex Removal. Sabway is really easy to alter to whatever you deem necessary (I always forget how to spell that properly >.>").
 * I found "It only took two Saurus before the gate broke" very amusing. Put SoA or SH on it and it cannot possibly die. This also reinforces my point below;
 * On your old setup: I suggest taking some prot over 3 Healers. RoF is the most overpowered spell ever (heals for 80, and negates 80 damage. 160 total. Gfg, WoH), RC is a great combination of Prot and Heal, Shielding Hands and SoA work wonders when someone is trained by some melees, or whittled away by Rangers. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]--  (s)talkpage  09:34, 25 October 2008 (UTC)


 * @Felix - Protective Bond makes HotS easy. Monk is just the easiest profession for using it since they will lose the least energy, and have Blessed Signet too. Of course since they are then specced into prot, it's handy to have another hiiler around, which makes 3 Monks. (though it is probably not even necessary, that dungeon is so easy) I take BiP/BR also just in case to make sure Prot Bond never fails. That's my guaranteed win for HotS. I don't understand why Vengeance is relevant to anything.
 * @Viper - Jagged Bones only gives you an additional ~2 minions at most with its current recharge, and Bone Minions are...weak. Barbs and Mark of Pain are conditional and I always find it hard to use except with Bone Fiends, who tend to attack same target since they clump. I know that Heroes are infinitely better at Death Nova'ing minions, but still. I don't understand why it works. Perhaps the AI knows the secret to directing minions.
 * For the fiery gauntlet, when I stand in fromt of the golem, it starts moving left or right and then keeps going. Even when I try to flag the whole party in front, that only stops it temporarily. Sometimes when I do this, the circle keeps moving too, or just stops, and that causes major problems of course. I've only ever gotten through the gauntlet with no deaths with luck. It's almost always the melee hench or the healers who die; they either run ahead or lag behind.
 * I wanted to test Sabway without making any modifications to the build, to see how it stacked up and what its weaknesses are. I probably could have swapped some of the rez for Remove Hex, as I almost never used them.
 * I'm not a Monk, and I didn't take Lina for Assault on the Stronghold (unnecessary), so I didn't have room for SoA or SH on anyone. And I have used those skills before. They help a lot, but by no means are they a 100% guarantee against death. It really depends on timing. If the Saurus can get past the Stalkers on the gate without dying, it's usually safe. So you have to get lucky with the timing of the devourer sieges. (If the Saurus could be arsed to cast Stoneflesh Aura, that would make the mission cake)
 * Why bother with prot? I've never lost with 3 healers. Prot doesn't affect multiple party members, either, and I am taking advantage of constant Burning with Words of Comfort. While you can cast a healing spell on same target for stacking effect, if heroes decide to simultaneously cast RoF on same target then you effectively waste two of them (besides DF bonus, but you get that with heal spell too). And they tend to do that a lot when they all have the same bar. RC is a total waste in A Time for Heroes since heroes will just spam it repetitively as you are always Burning. Which makes it a powerful heal ofc, but if that's all they do they are just wasting their energy, especially since Heroes use RC as condition removal rather than heal. Shielding Hands and SoA are fairly useless too, since all of The Great Destroyer's attacks hit multiple people, except his melee attack but that's not worth taking a defense against. There are like one Ranger or Melee per run of the mission, unless you are stupid and keep killing the minions, which respawn infinitely.
 * Or maybe I am confused and you are talking about Heart of the Shiverpeaks. I blame Felix for that. Like I said, I take two Prot monk for Protective Bond, and a BiP to make sure they never lose bonds. The rest of their bars I load with standard prot skill; one gets RC, other gets SoR or SoD, etc. Because I don't like to take chances, I also take Mhenlo along for some raw heals. (hence "three monks") You hardly need any damage output at all, since you can kill Cyndr with lifesteal, and keg running is not a threat when all his attacks hit for pansy damage. And the other foes in the dungeon are laughable.
 * If it was something else you are referencing, I am confused, as typically I always take one prot and one heal monk for all other situations. HB, RC, blah blah. In Nightfall I can swap for Khim because she has Aegis, but then I also try to take a BiP since she runs out of energy quick due to ZB. In Prophecies, Lina is also good with SoR and Aegis, but she sadly has no condition removal. Thus I take FF on the BiP. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 19:11, 25 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Let heroes use Barbs and MoP; they do just fine. Jagged indeed only saves a few minions, but that means for each minion saved, one less body needed, thus easier time keeping up 20+ (6-7 from Rt/Ns and 7-9 from N/x) minions. And getting 20 bodies isn't hard at all.
 * Note: Prots and Prot Monks and Prot Skills may or may not be named the same in the following text.
 * Why bother with prot, you ask? Because 1 prot and 1 heal equates to 3 heals. 2 prots equals a dead party, because you're going to lack redbarring. To "I've never lost with 3 healers": I've never lost with one prot and one healer. Oh, and Aegis is Earshot range (just a slightly offtopic fact :P ).
 * Sure, the Great Chicken attacks multiple targets, but that Healer bar has 2 party heals, and the rest (which would probably be used most often, since the healers are still heroes) is single target. Just like most Prots. A Prot bar usually has room for Divine Healing/Hevaen's, thus can also take a Party heal, if you really want to. PS completely rapes the GD's newest skill-of-which-I-forgot-the-name. When it's target happens to be Enchanted, a heal won't save him from 700 Fire damage, eh?
 * Even if there's only one Melee or a Ranger, it's nice to negate half of it's damage for 5 Energy, and giving a minor heal to the targetted person.
 * I've never had 2 heroes casting RoF on the same target; I don't take dupe enchantments, unless it's PS or Aegis (which would be on the one prot, and a support (ele, nec). I don't see how you can get 2 RoFs, unless you run 2prot/1heal for whatever reason? O_o" Overkill, and ineffective, for reasons mentioned already. You shouldn't give prots identical bar, or similar bars, for that matter. Diversity is key, unless you want to roll general PvE with SH, in which case all you need is E/Mes with SH and CoF.
 * What I don't get when you're talking about HotS is why you take Protective Bond. I never needed it; flagging heroes apart a bit is more than enough, and takes almost as long as saying "Worm". If there's anything easy in that dungeon, it's Cyndr, and his Pyroclastic Shot. hold W+E, when he fires, switch to W+Q. Dodging wins PvE. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  19:55, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I guess I should just leave it to Heroes. I still want to learn how to do it effectively with a human, though. Because Death Nova targetning is nearly impossible, it's infeasible for me to replace that part of the Sabway, but I could do the Curses part if I could only learn how to match targeting with the H/H AI.
 * What's that about Aegis? Anyway, I'll say again that you don't need prot. I have serious doubts that Flame Jet even exists because in all the times I have fought The Great Burning Chicken, I have never seen it. Thus it has never been a problem for me. (Or does he only use it in HM?)
 * The hiiler has two party heals and one AoE heal, and sometimes I take Heal Area instead of Heal Party; Heroes love to spam that. They will use Signets before anything else, dunno about other spells but I know they use all of them at some point or other. It works, somehow. Even though it looks horrible on paper. Divine Healing/Heaven's Delight are bad without UA, and even then they have such long recharge that they may not be ready when you really need them after a Searing Breath+Enraged Blast spike or such.
 * You said to take "some prot", which I assume meant 2-3 prot since "some" is multiple. Thus dupe enchants. In other PvE, Heroes do okay with dupe bars (Aegis chain ftw). But in this particular mission they tend to all cast same heal on same targets at same time, because the burning causes identical damage to everyone. Or something like that. I just know this is only place where I reliably see (for example) three Sig of Devo cast on me at same time.
 * H/H fail at scatter, and when I try to flag everyone apart, they end up dying anyway. Cyndr will use Pyroclastic Shot for awhile, but eventually he gets "Ma-a-a--a-ad" and starts auto-attacking the monks. This kills them because it does BZRKL damage as well as KD on crit (which is most attacks). Mhenlo and Lina also fail badly and can't outheal when four members of the party (the hench) are being smacked with Pyroclastic Shot. If I take my own Monks they last bit longer but still.
 * Also, when trying to run kegs, you can only dodge Pyroclastic Shot at far range. As you get closer it gets harder and harder. If he autoattacks you, then you are probably getting KD, and then you can't dodge the next Pyroclastic Shot and you lose the keg. Also, without Prot Spirit, you're going to die from strong attacks + Flame Burst for WTF damage and stuff. Lina has it, yes, but Cyndr of course won't be attacking just you, etc... And I never take PS on my Heroes without a BiP because that + Aegis + SoR/SoD is too much energy. Or even with RC, since that gets spammed.
 * This is why I like to use Prot Bond. You can get away with two prots in HotS since the monster groups are so wimpy; the "redbarring" is negligible. It gives you a guaranteed win against Cyndr. I don't see what the problem is.
 * Btw, I don't take Cry anymore, I like Mark of Rodgort. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 20:38, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Vengeance is corpse renewal. Recycle a sac'er into 30 minions. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 21:26, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh. But then my saccer would have 15% DP. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 21:39, 25 October 2008 (UTC)


 * The saccer would have 15 DP anyways, since it died. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  10:13, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Why would a saccer ever die? Maybe I don't understand the purpose. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 10:50, 26 October 2008 (UTC)


 * You said every Prot is single target. Aegis aint.
 * Flame Jet very much exists, even on NM. He uses it quite regularly when I'm fighting him... Odd stuff, AI.
 * 15 seconds isn't long at all for a 5e 1c party heal. (assuming 14 heal and 13 div, thus Heal Party already gets a boost in it's direction) It's 1/3 the cost of Heal Party, takes half the time and heals for 18 less. That's slightly more than one sec of Burning. Scary >.>" Any skill cast on the target, wether it's a Signet without Div bonus or something like RoF would outheal HP for that target then. Suppose it depends on what you find Energy efficient.
 * "Some prot" is RoF, Guardian, PS, Aegis. And if you insist on taking 2 Prot Monks, let the other have SB, PS, Aura of stab., Aegis. Dunno how that works since I never take 2 Prots. I also pack GoLE on em so I don't need to sacrifice damage for BiP (which would suck them dry because they cast PS after a BiP; they see it as spike damage and thus respond). If you have any form of defense on characters outside your Monks, ~40 Energy and GoLE comes a looong way. So anyways, what I wanted to say is; when you take "some prots" there's still not much reason to pack exactly the same prots on everyone... Or just use only one Prot and one Heal >.>" 2 Monks rock, since you get a free slot for damage or partywide defense/utilitybox.
 * If Cyndr autoattacks, let your Prot cast PS on you and his BZRKL damage becomes 50-60 at most. Ups~? KDs can be prevented by another handy prot skill; Aura of Stability. Or an Ele skill; Ward of Stability. And there's "Brace Yourself!" for the Paras. even rits can help it; Dulled Weapon for the freaking win (lolsarcasm, sorry). And if you don't have PS for whatever reason; your loss. It makes tanking every boss so easy. Cutting off almost 90% of the damage taken is undeniably good, and saves a lot of energy on your Heal Monk (healing 50 is easier than healing >300).
 * Elites are overrated for Prots, generally, unless you know you're running into a ton of Conditions. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  10:13, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I said no such thing that I can see. Aegis is the only prot that affects more than one person, other than Shield Guardian which is.......ehh.
 * Pics or it didn't happen. If Flame Jet deals as much damage as it says, then I should have ran into much more deaths and wipes, as I am not taking any Enchantments whatsoever (except Herta). But I don't. I've never had it used on me. Maybe he only does it when you take enchantments? :>
 * Divine Healing/Heaven's Delight is overrated along with UA but I see that I can't convince you of that. What I can say for certain is that no matter what party heal, hench never use them as effectively as a human would. Especially under HB/UA because they do not factor in the boosted healing before calculating when they should begin to heal peoples.
 * I don't see how you plan on maintaining 8 Protective Bond on the party with just Blessed Signet and Blood Ritual and maybe BiP also. At 13 Prot you lose 2 Energy for each hit (iirc) so -16 Energy anytime Cyndr uses Pyroclastic Shot, and another 2 for anything else that connects (likely another 2 if a keg blows up in your face, and also if you stand in a flame jet, etc) That's too risky for single Prot. Especially if Cyndr KDs them on the Blessed Signet, which may happen. So the obvious solution is to take two prots.
 * BiP is hardly sacrificing damage because you are running a Blood Necro anyway. What "damage" elite would you take for Blood? o_O BiP just works naturally. Also, it most certainly doesn't drain their energy, because obviously if you are taking Prot Bond you don't need PS. Or you'd disable it. GoLE doesn't help at all for bonder anyway.
 * Prot standard skills would be RoF, Guardian, Shield of Absorption, Shielding Hands, PS, Aegis, etc etc. Pick and choose based on where you are. There really isn't a lot of room for "diversity" without taking dumb skill like Pensive Guardian.
 * I think you are still confused. The only time I take two Prot - the only reason I take two prot - is for HotS. Everywhere else I have a prot monk and either a heal monk or an AWS Rit healer. (Okay, I'll admit that sometimes I do Aegis Chains ftw, but that's the exception)
 * You can not predict when Cyndr will attack, or who he will attack. Once he starts, you also do not know if he will randomly change targets. You can not "tank" Cyndr. I have tried that before. He WILL sooner or later decide to fire off a Pyroclastic Shot or something at the rest of the party. Therefore, even with PS you can't just cast it once and be good unless you get lucky.
 * Ward of Stability does not help your keg runner. Aura of Stability needs to be pre-cast to be effective, so unless heroes magically know when target is about to be KD, that means you would need to do the predicting for them. And that's just too much work. "Brace Yourself!" is even worse than Aura of Stability due to energy cost/duration/recharge. Plus you wouldn't have room for it in your Hero's bars. Dulled Weapon or Stone Sheath (lol) is actually an OK idea, although I have no idea if that would work.
 * About PS: I almost never carry it because I find it to be waste of energy and poorly used by H/H AI. They tend to cast it as soon as a target takes damage. Which will save from a spike, sure, but that also means spamming PS a lot. I also don't usually need the damage reduction, since I don't do Hard Mode...in NM, bosses are the only ones really worth using PS against. And then again, why bother with PS if you can just Daze/Blind etc. and problem solved. It's just not generally useful enough for me to carry.
 * Big, big exception is 4-man or 6-man areas. In these place, Aegis is kind of not worth it, and so I swap it for PS. I also take SoR or SoD in these case.
 * RC is stapled to almost all my prot bars. I tried Divert once but it didn't work so well. SoR and SoD have their respective uses too. Life Barrier ftw in Assault on the Stronghold. Addendum: Also, RC is totally useless against Great Destroyer and also in HotS. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 10:50, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Hiiler bar

I don't bother with hard rez since it's usually unnecessary. I may take Cure Hex if there will only be light hexes, since that's an uber heal too. But otherwise it has too long recharge (imo).

Prot bar

This is my generic Prot bar. Felix sued me for using Guardian but I don't care. And I still like Shielding Hands. I swap Aegis and Guardian out when not facing serious melee, and take instead PS and maybe Divine Intervention, or Deny Hexes for moar removal. RC I take nearly everywhere, and only swap out when I have a Foul Feast necro along or I know there will be no conditions worth removing.

HotS Prot x2

I ONLY take this for Heart of the Shiverpeaks. Splitting the bonds between two monks drastically reduces the possibility of a disaster. Usually when I get to Cyndr I disable Prot Spirit and maybe SoR. If I am feeling too lazy to do this, I also take Mhenlo and then it's just cake. You don't need any serious damage output to take out Cyndr, especially with at least one blood on the team.

HotS Blood

Lifestealing is the only thing that goes through Cyndr's carapace. You could take Vampiric Spirit but that is not "huge damage". Ravenous Gaze is pretty crap and there's no reason you would get to <50% health just to use it. Cultist's Fervor/OoB is irrelevant. Life Transfer has no effect. There are others I think, that I can't remember, but still. BiP is the only real choice.

(T/C) 11:23, 26 October 2008 (UTC)


 * "Prot doesn't affect multiple party members, either" so yeah.
 * If you find that H/Hs use Party heals so horribly; why do you pack 6? O_o"
 * Whoa. Hold on. I don't see where you suddenly got Prot Bond from. Where did I mention that? (also, 3e at 13)
 * We aint following one-another. I'm saying one Heal and one Prot is enough ,and you bring up Protective Bond...
 * I never take Blood Necros (Baed DPS), so it is a sacrifice in damage, for me. Ravenous Gaze is an elite Vamp Gaze and rather awesome if you get Pyroclastic'd.
 * AoS is always precast for me; iMicro. When I stand at the Dwarf-whats-his-name, I force Tahlk to cast AoS on me, sometimes PS (depends on wether or not I have it myself) and then get a keg... Dodge the first Pyroclastic, and if that worked, run as fast as I can and bomb him.
 * Hmm... Earthbind+Balthazar's Pendulum. Lol. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  11:12, 26 October 2008 (UTC)


 * RoF, RC, etc don't and those are the prot you were talking about that I said that about.
 * H/H use party heals terribly under most circumstance because as I said, they don't time them efficiently as a human. They wait too long or use them overzealously. Ideally as a Monk you never want to waste energy healing a target till they need it, so you spam Sig of Devo/Rejuvenation as fillers in the meantime, with one or two 5e spells. Heroes aren't smart enough to prioritize like that (well, they are better than they used to be). So for party heals they won't use them when they are most needed - entire party has taken some damage - or they will use them when not everyone is hurt, or...etc. I just know that I do a better job with the exact same skillbar when playing as a partyhiiler.
 * I pack six or three party heals for ATfH because with three Monks you have a ton of margin for error and it really doesn't matter how effectively they work as long as they cast it sometime (no one will ever be at full health anyway). But mostly it is because there is no other good skills to use. It's pointless to remove conditions as Burning is constantly reapplied. There are no hexes to worry about. You don't get single-target spikes so WoH is less useful. HB or UA may work, though I have never tried, but they are not really necessary. (only capped it quite recently) Glimmer would be a waste; H/H spam it like no tomorrow. Healing Light won't work as you have no enchantment. Etc...LoD was the best I could come up with at the time and it worked, so I stick with it. Heal Party, as I said somewhere, can be switch for Heal Area sometimes (depends if you take any melee or not). H/H use Heal Area as their preferred heal for whatever reason so they will be using that a lot, and it usually gets the entire party too, which makes it terribly efficient.
 * Prot Bond is the entire reason we are talking about HotS. It's why I run two prots there and why I take a BiP also. You don't like that because of X and Y and Z and I am trying to explain why it should be that way. You said "take one prot and one heal" or such, and that just wouldn't work if you want Prot Bond on the party.
 * Cyndr is a wimp and you need next to none DPS to take him out, so it's moot really. Blood is strictly because of the Carapace. I don't take Blood anywhere else unless I am running something very energy-intensive.
 * I cba to micro when the results are hardly worth it (imo). Prot Bond way takes no micro...
 * I don't think that you could knock Cyndr down, even with Earthbind, but now I may just have to go try it on some Siege Wurms or such. o_O [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 11:38, 26 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Why take SoR if nothing takes more than 30 damage per hit? Wasted 15e per cast, imho. Just leave it as an empty slot and save energy :P --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  11:29, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Is why I say I usually disable it after bonds are up. Bonds are only for Cyndr. The rest of the dungeon you proceed as normal, and SoR is used for healing and prot lolz. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 11:38, 26 October 2008 (UTC)