GuildWiki talk:Style and formatting/Skills


 * Old skill box stuff moved to /Archive 5.

Restarting Vote for Skill Box
The discussion over the options for the new skill box design has been going on for a long time and become quite confusing. To make things clearer a new page has been created at /Skill box.

Skill icons: screen cap or fansite kit?

 * Echo screen cap, 16kb: [[Image:Echo.png]]
 * Echo fansite kit, 3kb: [[Image:Echo.jpg]]

Over at the Task list the opinions has been to use the one from the fansite kit, but the issue that there is no golden border for the elite skills was not brought up. I still vote fansite kit though. -PanSola 06:03, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


 * IMO, we should go with the fansite kit images. The golden border shouldn't be that important if the skill article itself says that they are an elite skill.  --Rainith 11:21, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Or if someone is willing they could simply add the border. I can do it if I have the time, but that's an option as well. --GraceAlone 23:37, 16 February 2006 (CST)


 * I certainly favor anything that keeps the gold border. I don't know all the skills as well as I'd like, and it's an excellent UI reference / support.  Leaving out the gold border is bad UI and would make me sad panda.  (Even if we just get a surrounding table with a gold border or something, that would do it.  I certainly see the appeal of using official fansite stuff.) --JoDiamonds 13:11, 8 March 2006 (CST)
 * Please scroll down a little ways to see how the FSK icons can be given a gold border. --Rainith 13:15, 8 March 2006 (CST)

Skill Icons: Mix of Old and New fansite kit, or new fansite kit only?
Old fansite kit icons does not have elite skills. New fansite kit have all skills, but are smaller.

Do we want a mix, use old by default and new only if old doesn't have it? or do we want to go uniform on size? Rainith has expressed a preference for uniformity (use all new), and I also support that position.

Relavent discussion at GuildWiki:Task List#Task: Skill Images Revamp. -PanSola 09:11, 12 February 2006 (CST)

Moved from GuildWiki:Task List
Moved from Task List

Re-upload or rename all skill images to their correct skill name (skill name.png). The template:Skill bar, which would improve all build articles a lot and is easy to use, requires properly names images. Proper names are good whenever you need the image anyway.

Update: Since the recent update many skill icons have changed. Another reason to get this done.

--Xeeron 05:33, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Just a note, but it looks like ANet changed their fansite kits for the skill icons. At a quick glance I saw that some (maybe all) of the elites are in there now.  The (possible) down side is that they changed the size of the graphics to about half their old size.  If all the elites are included in these, I think we should use them, that way all our skills will be uniform.  --Rainith 11:36, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. With all the new skill icons, this would be a ton of work otherwise. Hopefully ANet has a full set of the new icons somewhere. --Xeeron 05:33, 20 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm fairly sure all the elite skills are included. However they are now .jpg and not .png, AND the elites don't have golden borders. -PanSola 00:51, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I made a template for getting the images uploaded with the correct name, i'll be looking through them and listing them all. Template:Moveimage 05:38, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Since there is no way to "move" images (w/o re-uploading them) I think we should just straight upload the new images from the kits, even if the elites don't have golden borders. --Rainith 11:11, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm trying to help gets these updated since I have the time, but need to know where we stand: are we using the official images from Anet, even with the smaller size, or are we doing something else? --GraceAlone


 * I think we have a majority in favor of using the new fansite kits from Anet. I tried to stir up another discussion here but didn't get many responses... -PanSola 22:05, 15 February 2006 (CST)


 * Another issue to debate, if we use the FSK images, do we convert them to PNGs or do we change our templates here to accept them as JPGs? Just throwing that out there.  --Rainith 01:30, 16 February 2006 (CST)
 * Personally I'm not happy with the quality and size of the FSK icons (but that's my opinion). I think we have the majority of the icons, we just don't have a uniformity. As it stands now I think we just need to rename the icon, re-upload, and then edit the skill description (at least that's what I've been doing). --GraceAlone 02:37, 16 February 2006 (CST)
 * Well, the skill box templates do not asume any extensions currently. I don't know about the templates for builds.  I say keep them in original JPG format.  As for the "quality and size" of the FSK icons, see this link about what *I* am not happy about in terms of quality and (file) size. -PanSola 06:36, 16 February 2006 (CST)


 * Generally, I am in favor of keeping the golden border. I have come across a few articles with the new "borderless" skill icons and found that very irritating. --Xeeron 20:55, 21 February 2006 (CST)


 * Ditto. 21:19, 21 February 2006 (CST)
 * Well I'm proposing adding our own golden border with the skill boxes, see GuildWiki talk:Style and formatting/Skills which would mitigate the issue a lot. Even vertical skill info boxes can have golden border added skill box 6 and 7 from this link.  You guys should go and vote on the skill boxes (-: -PanSola 22:12, 21 February 2006 (CST)
 * The problem is: In nearly all build articles, we now use the template skill bar, which displays the skill image. Very neat looking, but the yellow border needs to be in the image itself. Apart from that, its the way it is in the game. --Xeeron 06:19, 22 February 2006 (CST)

Skill Icons - the ballot
Blah, sorry, when I said "Please don't start voting until the skill box layout format is decided." I was thinking the vote currently in Archive 4, as opposed to the one that hasn't ended yet now. If no one has any objections, we will start the 7-day vote for this ballot item. If anyone think this ballot should wait, speak up now. -PanSola 05:55, 13 March 2006 (CST)

Voting format will be Majority vote with instant-runoff.

Neither the original or the new fansite kit provided icons for Res Signet and Sig of Capture, nor at of this moment, Ch2 skills.

Skill Icons Ballot
I have taken the liberty of removing PNG format from consideration completely. If anyone wants PNG back, use "Other" and sue me. -PanSola 05:55, 13 March 2006 (CST)

I have also taken the liberty to only offering edited golden borders (plain one-color edition) for elite icons in the new fansite kit (see ballot item discussion). This is with the understanding that the artificial border in the skill box will be removed, being redundent now. If you do not want the image edited, use "Other" (and specify whether you want the skill box to provide artificial golden border).

All options will use screen capture for unavailable/outdated icons.


 * 1) Use original fansite kit images, but in JPG format (as opposed to the currently used PNG).
 * 2) Use original fansite kit images in JPG format, new fansite kit for outdated icons (but not elites, which will be screen caps to perserve original golden border).
 * 3) Use original fansite kit images in JPG format, new fansite kit for outdated and elite icons (edited golden border).
 * 4) Use new fansite kit JPG images (edited golden border for elites).
 * 5) Use new fansite kit JPG except for elite (which will be screen caps to perserve original golden border).
 * 6) Use screencaps for everything to ensure ultimate uniformity
 * 7) Other (please specify)

Skill Icon Votes
(NOTE: There are two different votes on this page, as long as you're here, please also vote on the Skill Box Vote)
 * Option 1 - old FSK only (screen cap elite/outdated)
 * Option 2 - old FSK default, new FSK (w/ edited border for elites) for outdated (screen cap elite)
 * Option 3 - old FSK default, new FSK (w/ edited border for elites) for anything missing
 * Option 4 - new FSK (w/ edited border for elites) only
 * 1) PanSola (2nd choice 3, 3rd choice 5, 4th choice 2, 5th choice 1)
 * 2) Rainith
 * 3) Barek
 * 4) Evil_Greven
 * 5) JoDiamonds (4, 7, 6, meh)
 * 6) Karlos
 * 7) Dinosaur Planet
 * Option 5 - new FSK except for elites (screen cap elite).
 * Option 6 - Screen cap everything
 * 1) Shandy (Option 5 second choice)
 * Option 7 - new FSK, with images altered to include the actual ingame border (haven't found anyone to do the border yet)
 * 1) Xeeron
 * Option 8 - Other
 * 1) LordBiro I vote for PNGs. I don't think there would be any discolouration with resize if the host had ImageMagick/NetPBM and the wiki was set up to use them.
 * 2) * My post here wasn't very clear. I've explained in detail on my talk page.
 * 1) * My post here wasn't very clear. I've explained in detail on my talk page.

Results
Option 4 has received a clear majority. If anyone wish to dispute the results, speak up now or forever hold your peace.
 * I'll start coloring the borders of the elites tonight. Should I assume that we will want to hold off on uploading them until the skill box vote is complete, or do we want them ASAP and will change the articles/templates that call for them in png format?  --Rainith 01:05, 22 March 2006 (CST)
 * Personally I say upload new JPGs ASAP. I think whether Skuld's win, my landscape win, or one of the hybrids win, we'll be using the new icons.  As for whether we want to modify the existing templates to use JPGs instead of PNGs, that's a diff question that I care much less about.  -SolaPan 08:20, 22 March 2006 (CST)

Progress

 * Warrior (done, fsk is missing Bull's Charge icon)
 * Ranger (done, none missing)
 * Monk (done, images for Spell Breaker and Healing Hands had to be renamed to .JPG because of the upload bug)
 * Necromancer (done, images for Spiteful Spirit and Soul Leech had to be renamed to .JPG because of the upload bug)
 * Mesmer (projected completed 3/28)
 * Elementalist (projected completed 3/29)

* dates denote the day (PST) that I intend to upload the new icons

Why the jump from 3/23 to 3/27 you ask? Do you really have to ask? If I get bored playing the Factions preview, I may work on this and get some more done, but no promises. --Rainith 12:28, 22 March 2006 (CST)
 * I was hoping to not run into the upload bug after getting through warrior and ranger elites w/o hitting it. I think Stabber's (? pretty sure she came up with it) idea for the template that pull skill icons from the skill name is a good idea.  Set up a Skill Name/Image page that links to whatever the image is named, then use that as what the template looks for.  --Rainith 00:37, 25 March 2006 (CST)

Ballot Item Discussion
Please discuss what should be added to the ballot or the pro/con summary (or if either lack neutrality).
 * If I could suggest a slighly different idea, how about using the new FSK jpgs with a slight change for the elites: [[Image:elite-example.jpg]] vs. the original: [[Image:warriorcleave.jpg]]
 * All I did was take the FSK icon and color the black border with a color taken with the eyedropper tool from the elite border of an older icon. I'm not sold on this color, but it is a very easy fix and I would be happy to do all the borders of the elite skills (I would do it over a weekend, so if everyone decides that this is a good idea on a tuesday, don't expect to see them done on wednesday morning).  So what do people think?  Have a better color suggestion for the border?  Post a pic with the color and I can use that.  --Rainith 11:47, 25 February 2006 (CST)
 * EDIT - also as the FSK icons are in jpg format they scale much better for use in the skill bar than the png format ones. --Rainith 11:51, 25 February 2006 (CST)
 * For the other professions this might be quite nice, but with warriors teh color isn't standing out a lot, in the particular icon you posted anyways. Excellent idea. -PanSola 03:54, 26 February 2006 (CST)
 * The color stands out when compared vs. the original, see above. Anyways, like I said, suggest a better color and it can be used, I just didn't want to upload 20 different versions.  --Rainith 10:49, 26 February 2006 (CST)
 * I am all for editing the FSK files.  Besides, they are much easier to get a hold of.  Less work for those involved. -Novalith 12:24, 27 February 2006 (EST)
 * While in theory I am fine with all three options, I would very much oppose any solution that does not include the golden border as a part of the picture. Using templates to add it is cumbersome and makes for much harder to understand templates, while simply the picture might be enough otherwise. --Xeeron 20:23, 27 February 2006 (CST)
 * Can you use the "gold" color from this wiki (they are floating everywhere in /Archive 4)? Being something NOT directly in game might make the border standout more (since whatever color we pick, it's going to be mono-tone, picking something from actual icon might blend in too well esp with warrior skills).  -PanSola 07:42, 1 March 2006 (CST)
 * Per your request:
 * [[Image:elite-example-2.jpg]]
 * --Rainith 13:53, 1 March 2006 (CST)
 * Yeah I like this one more than the previous one (-: Thanks -PanSola 14:01, 1 March 2006 (CST)
 * I also like this one a lot. Additionally, I'm agree with Xeeron that the gold border should be included as part of the image itself if possible, for all the reasons mentioned, especially simplicity in the long run.  --JoDiamonds 00:42, 9 March 2006 (CST)

As a random note, the old FSK actually had JPGs. For unknown reasons, Martin (the original uploader of most of them) converted them to PNG. He couldn't remember why he converted them when I asked him months afterwards. --Fyren 02:01, 27 February 2006 (CST)

Suggestion: Make item 3, "Use old FSK images in JPG form, new FSK images for outdated images, convert skill bar template to look for JPGs" -- 08:36, 1 March 2006 (CST)

For those voting for option 7, who is offering to make the new images for the elites? I'm offering to do that for option 4 which would look like this:

As far as putting the actual border from the game in there, someone else will have to do that, my way is very easy to do in Photoshop, putting the ingame border on the images is more than I am willing to do. --Rainith 02:56, 15 March 2006 (CST)


 * The example you put up there is one for option 7 actually, so we have found one volunteer already ;-)
 * As I said, I would prefer the actual ingame border, but given my total noobness with anything related to grafics, I will settle for the second best (i.e. that golden border) if the ingame border turns out to be too much of an effort. --Xeeron 04:18, 15 March 2006 (CST)


 * Actually if you read the description, that example is for #4:
 * Use new fansite kit JPG images (edited golden border for elites).
 * --Rainith 04:32, 15 March 2006 (CST)


 * Yeah the current 7 overlaps with 4... ppl need to specify "Other" if they don't want the gold border.  Sorry it was not super explicit. -PanSola 04:44, 15 March 2006 (CST)


 * I edited option 7 so it IS for the actual ingame border, to remove overlap with #4. Ppl who originally voted for 7 might want to rethink their decision, and if they still choose to vote 7, they probably want to specify 4 as their second choice seeing how the original option 7 was worded. -PanSola 04:58, 15 March 2006 (CST)


 * Thanks for clearing that up. :)  Sorry if the tone of my original post on this today sounded kind of "whiney," it has just been that sort of day, where one thing after another has been pushed off onto me.  I'll be happy to put the psudo-golden borders on the elite skills if that option wins, my concern was that I would never be happy with the outcome if I tried to "merge" the in-game border with the new FSK icons, plus that wasn't something that I wanted to try to do in the first place.  *Whew* It is time to go home, not a minute too soon.  --Rainith 07:58, 15 March 2006 (CST)

Categories for "Related Skills"
So far, we are maintaining all lists of "related" skills manually. See Index of Skill Lists. What about doing this with categories? I know, this would be a major change to the way we handle skills, and we'd have to do yet another crusade, going through all the skills, but I think it may be worth it. Considering we'll get about 200 new skills with every campaign and two new campaigns per year, we'll loose overview some day. And if we combine it with some other skill crusade (for example the upcoming landscape info box crusade) it may not be that much work after all. Thoughts? -- 20:07, 3 March 2006 (CST)
 * Fully agree. I think manually kept tables might still have some value (to see a short summary at a glance), but I realy think we should add categories for ease of maintainence. -PanSola 00:58, 4 March 2006 (CST)
 * I have some strong concerns:
 * I can't see a categorization scheme sustaining the info about the skills' general relation (currently given as subheaders like "Skills that profit from Deep wound"), nor profession, unless we resort to severe overclassification. This is a non-negligible loss in practical value IMO.
 * I worry about how well the category structure could deal with various complications I've come across; relations have a strong tendency to not be as cut and dry. (Example: How to deal with the relation between skills that cause healing and skills that cause health gain?  On one hand the distinction between the 2 mechanics has real implications; on the other hand, depending on the interpretation of the terminology, either set could be considered a subset of the other.)
 * I don't understand how there is any benefit of reduced long term maintenance. It seems like people consider categorization to be automatic/free while a list is manual/tedious.  But really...you have to edit in each relation either way!  The only reduced cost I see with categorization is the initial overhead in working out individual pages' layouts (and IMO this freedom of layout in lists is tied to benefits mentioned above).
 * --Rezyk 03:10, 4 March 2006 (CST)


 * I'm inclined to agree with Rezyk. If nothing else, the current format of, say, the Deep Wound page is quite good and helpful.  Any way I can imagine that being done with categories seems messier, uglier, and less immediately informative than having it manually laid out on one page.  The one compelling argument I could agree with is that if there are so many skills that the Deep Wound page needs to be broken up into separate pages, well, that's already like Categories, I guess, but it's not going to happen to all pages at the same time.  --JoDiamonds 04:03, 4 March 2006 (CST)

Skill Efficiency
This has been an idea I've been mulling over for awhile. I'd like to see a skill efficiency table in the skill articles. This would provide a quick reference by which to compare similar skills and their cost-vs-effectiveness ratio. This would likely be in the form of a 3-field table. Divine Healing has an energy cost of 10, an activation time of 2, and a recharge time of 30.
 * Example A:

Orison of Healing has an energy cost of 5, an activation time of 1, and a recharge time of 2.
 * Example B:

Heal Other has an energy cost of 10, an activation time of 3/4, and a recharge time of 3.
 * Example C:

Any thoughts on this? - Evil_Greven 16:47, 6 March 2006 (CST)


 * I like it - you can tack it onto the bottom of the skill page, under notes or something. Maybe slightly worried about people not reading the whole article and just getting confused by seeing two similar-looking tables.  Evan The Cursed (Talk) 11:53, 14 March 2006 (CST)


 * This is a good idea at a glance. For quite a while I've wanted to do something similar. But there are a few difficulties to keep in mind:
 * It works fine if you do it for a simple skill that heals or causes damage. But what about skills that inflict/remove conditions or hexes. Is a skill that heals 40 points more or less effective than a skill that heals only 30 points, but also removes one condition or hex?
 * What about skills that affect more than one target within an AoE? Is a skill that deals 40 damage to one foe more or less effective than a skill that deals only 30 damage, but to all foes "in the area"?
 * What about skills that prevent damage, like Reversal of Fortune?
 * many more problems ...
 * -- 01:32, 15 March 2006 (CST)
 * Take Divine Healing, which is listed here, for instance. Its effect is variable -- if it's one person getting healed, the effect is shown. If it's multiple people being healed, simply multiply the numbers by however many people.  My thoughts for this were a general comparison, and the description elaborates on what they do already.  I'd planned this for the skill pages (just the skill in question, not each related skill), not one page out by itself. - Evil_Greven 03:35, 15 March 2006 (CST)
 * I think it's a neat idea, but should be in a separate section, an efficiency comparison for example. Too many skills have variable efficiency rates - how do you possibly compared Heal Other and Healing Seed?  What about the skills/items typically used in conjuction with skills - you'd be foolish to not count Mantra of Inscriptions for some builds for example, as it's standard - the same is true of a 20% enchanting wrapping for example - since it's standard if you are using enchantments for your heals.  It's a complex topic, and while I think a page devoted to it is needed, I don't think it should be a main feature of most skill pages. --Epinephrine 04:59, 15 March 2006 (CST)
 * I think it's a neat idea, but should be in a separate section, an efficiency comparison for example. Too many skills have variable efficiency rates - how do you possibly compared Heal Other and Healing Seed?  What about the skills/items typically used in conjuction with skills - you'd be foolish to not count Mantra of Inscriptions for some builds for example, as it's standard - the same is true of a 20% enchanting wrapping for example - since it's standard if you are using enchantments for your heals.  It's a complex topic, and while I think a page devoted to it is needed, I don't think it should be a main feature of most skill pages. --Epinephrine 04:59, 15 March 2006 (CST)


 * See the thing is, I don't think the charts will show some definitive data. Like finally resolving which is better Healing Hands vs Word of Healing, since that would deserve discussion in another area (like the page I just linked).  I view it more as a simplified, generalized view of how the skill functions.  Not how "good" it is.  Just how effective it can be under certain circumstances.  Let the user/viewer decide -- but help him do so.  He knows what situation he's going to get into, but with those charts he can probably become a bit more keen on which skills will serve his purposes better.  Evan The Cursed (Talk) 12:49, 15 March 2006 (CST)


 * Presented as they are here, they seem interesting. Presented singly on different skill pages, they seem less useful.  The big win is when you can present information like this all on one page, and a page that compares Healing Efficiency seems quite useful.  I'm not sold on the idea that it's particularly helpful on individual skill pages, because the numbers are essentially meaningless in isolation.  Additionally, the things that are being compared aren't always interesting for all spells -- healing spells need to be grouped together, obviously, and direct damage too.  But what about Vampiric Gaze?  It should realistically be on both pages, even though it's effectively bad at both healing and damage output.
 * I'm not sure I have a completely coherent argument here, but it seems like seeing one of those charts on a skill page just isn't that interesting, while making individual pages comparing multiple skills is the better way to present this information.
 * --JoDiamonds 03:18, 16 March 2006 (CST)

Description Inconsistency
Currently, we have an inconsistency in the skill descriptions. Some of them are the same as the description in the game and list the skill type at the start as well as the "This is an elite skill" if applicable. Others are missing this information, since it's redundant with the skill box and categorization. I think we should get rid of this inconsistency and make one of the two systems the standard. Which one should it be, though? I should note that the in-game description also includes the attribute at the end, and that's almost never included in the description here. So I suppose we're already not following the in-game description exactly. Personally, I think we should also leave out the rest of the redundant information. --adeyke 18:31, 24 March 2006 (CST)
 * The "standing" policy is supposed to be "use identical text from in-game description", where the attribute part doesn't count as part of the descrition (cuz it's grey?).
 * On the basis that even the game does not consistently include "This is an elite BLAH" in the descriptions of elite skills, and we do have an alternate clear and obvious system marking elites, I agree with leaving out the redundant information. -SolaPan 19:30, 24 March 2006 (CST)