GuildWiki talk:Quietly deal with vandals

+666 :O Cress Arvein 01:02, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Love it.reanor 17:25, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree, stop by quickly banning. RT | Talk - RFA 06:35, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Sheesh, if this were a policy already, Marco wouldn't have had that whole problem. I have to agree this is a good idea. [[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png]]Entrea Sumatae   [Talk]  23:16, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Move
Wow. I've inspired policy discussions. It needs to be cleaned up and clarified a bit, I think, but obviously I approve of it as a policy. Move it, even if only for discussion. &mdash;♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 19:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * LOL Turning this article into a policy will contradict itself.[[Image:Ereanorsign.jpg]]reanor 04:04, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Why would it? I fail to comprehend. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 05:53, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Having a vandal policy is by itself giving vandals attention.[[Image:Ereanorsign.jpg]]reanor 05:57, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Having a static vandal policy gives the subject of vandalism attention, but does not give individual vandals attention. Additionally, the goal of this policy isn't "to give zero attention to vandals at all", but rather "to minimize the attention given to the vandals".  Individual vandals in the very recent past has received way more attention than if all the users here follow this proposed policy.  Therefore the existence of this policy would reduce the level of attention vandals get, fulfilling its designed role. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 06:05, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * You're right. But still, users with common sense follow this already, and users without common sense won't follow it even with a policy telling them to.[[Image:Ereanorsign.jpg]]reanor 06:13, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * At least half the users without common sense will still follow a policy in the future when it is pointed out to them after their first offense. That will be a huge improvement already. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 06:31, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I was once a vandal and I still admit it WAS fun, but i grew up. So just give them second chances you never know who'll come around. Yes i agree with this completely they come to get attention, by doing it quietly they lose all motivation to do it. --Holylorgor 06:33, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I get the strange suspicion that I might be on some people's minds Blue.rellik 06:35, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Controling them?[[Image:Ereanorsign.jpg]]reanor 06:36, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * No, I meant one of the people this page is referring to. I do have the habit of getting into fights with vandals Blue.rellik 06:37, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think this policy is a good idea, but the trol template might not be so good (people might think it's a joke) RT | Talk 06:38, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

(ri) The troll template is a remnant from when this was just something I was brainstorming on in my userspace. It is related but I don't think it belongs right on top. Anyway, I've been referring to this as GW:QDV assuming it becomes official. I still wanna touch up the wording on it... &mdash;♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 07:39, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * What about GW:DEAL? RT | Talk 07:40, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think GW:QDwV would be awesome :D. --Hellbringer loves emo slut druggies (T/C) 23:26, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * GW:DEAL is an easier name to remember for the average user in my opinion. I also support this policy, it makes a lot of sense --<font face="vivaldi" size="3"> Shadow crest   02:14, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

modifying and rewording
The purpose of point 6 was to say that its none of your business if someone was banned. The ban should be between the admin and the person who was banned. If they were unjustly banned and want something done about it, they should be the one to contact an admin. I would assume that other admins would keep an eye on block logs to see if their fellows are abusing their power but the assumption is also that admins are chosen because they can be trusted. Point 8 contradicts this. I think that point 6 should be clarified so that it doesn't prevent people from pointing out an erroneous ban but also states where the discussion should occur and how. Basically, I think 8 and 6 need to be reworded for clarity. Thoughts?

I also feel like here it should be pointed out that policies need to be obeyed in spirit not to the letter. The purpose of this would be to remind that arguing over technicalities shouldn't be tolerated. &mdash;<font color=#ff44aa>♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 19:49, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, I trust my fellow admins, so I'm not gonna babysit their actions to see if they are abusing their power. On the other hand, admins are humans, and humans make mistakes.  While I don't recall exactly, I most likely have erroneously banned someone in the history of GuildWiki.  Point 6 says don't go into a big lengthy discussion, but it doesn't completely forbid ppl from talking about it.  Point 8 says clearly and concisely explain at the admin notice board, and don't go into the nitty gritties.  I think those are the focuses of points 6 and 8 (and the focuses themselves do not contradict each other even if the apparent wording might feel like it).  Hope that helps you figure out how to reword things. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 20:58, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that it has to be noted that this policy is designed to deal with vandalism. If the account/IP who is banned is truly undeserving of the ban, then it shouldn't become an issue. I think I'll have to have a closer look at where GWW is having issues with their confusing admins and consider what (btw, someone in my ethics class as talking something about TOR and getting IPs easier? idk, warrents research. wanted to spit it out before i forget). ok, I'm gonna look at some dialogs here and on GWW and see if I can come up with a few use cases that should help refine this policy. &mdash; ♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 23:23, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Although I trust my fellow admins, I do make it a point to check on their actions via the Master Log anyways - but it is only because I need to know what is going on and what has happened recently in case any related incident should occur.
 * As to this policy - I support it, although I have some slight reservations about "Malicious vandals...are not stopped by warnings" (paraphrase). Now, obviously it's up to individual interpretation of just how bad "malicious" is, but I believe that should some user choose to give a (non-inflammatory) warning, they should not be penalized for it, or pointed to this policy as an example of why such actions are bad. A benign, non-trollish warning can only do good, even if it is "no good". If nothing else, it serves as a historical reference. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 17:22, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Well I wasn't planning on banning anybody for breaking this policy, unless they start having a party on the vandal's talk page... Go ahead and reword stuff. My personal inclination is a 3-day ban won't do less good than a verbal warning when it comes to real vandals, and the ban's effect is more immediate. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 17:36, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The purpose of the policy is primarily to have a way to describe how we respond to vandalism. If it is iffy if it is unintentional or if its an IP/account that doesn't contribute only vandalism, then perhaps we can work out a warning. I don't like the idea of simply saying don't vandalize because it says to the vandal "we see what you're doing. its vandalism. you have our attention." So to say stop vandalizing would acknowledge that both the vandal and the person posting the warning already know its vandalism. It only gives too much attention to the vandal and the vandalism. This is really only to apply to what is obvious vandalism (ie, what happened to Jennalee's page). For cases of blanking or other things where it is possible that the perpetrator may not know any better or may not realize what they are doing, a warning worded carefully can still inform them without challenging. "Hi, you appear to have blanked such and such a page. Please be more careful with your edits because it can be construed as vandalism which is a bannable offense." In this way, innocent people get their warning, but a true vandal's crime is reduced to an accident or similar. It does not credit them as vandals but suggests that they don't know any better. Should this become a challenge, it will only serve to identify them as a true vandal which is easy to see how to deal with them, or stop them.
 * We can't truly stop them if they keep changing their ips and stuff. We can only make it so that there is no reward for them if they do it. If a person truly wants to make positive contributions to the wiki, then they can't hang around as vandals.
 * That being said, the reason for all bans should be clearly cited. Perhaps a simple policy which points out some obvious things which count as vandalism could be written. Like NPA, it could list simple issues which are considered vandalism so they can be sited. It doesn't have to go over the top.
 * Also, consider that a ban template could also be used as a warning. It doesn't speak to the vandal but is to speak to an admin. If we put it on their talk page, it comes to their attention and still serves as a notice. This does not dignify them with actual response but may well work. &mdash; ♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 18:37, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

...Alright, I rewrote this somewhat and I think it now reflects on what people have said. I believe it is ready to be moved to a full policy. (T/C) 18:04, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Example of why this needs to become a policy
-- (Talk) (Contr.) 03:08, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
 * No, that's an example of why we should deal quietly with vandals.[[Image:Ereanorsign.jpg]]<strong style="color: black;">reanor 09:51, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Awe MP, but then where will we get our kicks for the day if we aren't allowed to toy along with our vandals? Game of cat and mouse anyone?  All kidding aside, I think this is a great implementation, and hopefully it will help out everyone on this wiki.  [[Image:Isk8.png]]Isk8 09:59, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
 * If you really want to, and if GWW does not have a similar policy, then you can play with the vandals there. Until they decide to institute a similar policy that is.  Get on an IRC channel with ops around, start swearing, and you'll get kicked.  Don't tell them I send you there. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 10:19, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that this should be an offical policy, and it would stop people breaking the GW:NPA towards vandals. --[[Image:Warwick sig.JPG]] <font face="vivaldi" size="4">Warwick (Talk)/(Contr. ) 12:15, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Abbreviation
Since this is going to be a policy, I nominate "GW:QDV" <font color="Purple">Thoughtful  14:10, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


 * or GW:QUIET. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]]-- (s)talkpage 14:37, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Or both.=p <font color="Purple">Thoughtful [[Image:Thoughtful Sig.png|19px]] 14:39, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

needs clarifications on warning
says jedirogue not logged in. also, when and where to point out violations of this policy. 69.122.146.84 06:47, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I personally don't think that we need clarification on this. Sysops have the tools required to enforce this when needed, and a simple reminder of this policy on a users talk page is always a good idea if someone seems to be encouraging a vandal with his actions. For example if one user would start a debate with a vandal I would throw a reminder on that persons talk page. If multiple users would start debating and trolling the talk page of the vandal user I would protect the talk page of that vandal user with a notice that includes a link to this policy.
 * This policy is not something that needs to be enforced, it's something that acts as a good guideline on dealing with vandals on the wiki, but being a policy allows sysops to enforce it in the rare case where it might be beneficial to the wiki to do so. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 11:25, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, this is about on par with GW:SIGN in terms of "violations of this policy". It is mostly to serve as a warning and guideline; I doubt that we would ever have to ban someone for this. I think that whenever someone is acting in a manner which is not helping to deal with a vandal/troll, a message with a link to this page should be added to the user's talkpage. Don't put it on the vandal's talkpage since that isn't in keeping with this policy - ideally we should never have talkpages for vandals or trolls at all, less attention and all that.
 * "needs clarifications on warning." Could you clarify what you mean by this :) Do you mean warnings through the use of this policy, or warnings given to borderline vandals/trolls, or...something else? [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:47, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I think this page is the last conflicting rules example I saw. --<font face="vivaldi" size="3"> Shadow crest   05:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Lol. People think that the policy is there just to be a policy, not for a cause. Noting another user of this policy on the vandals talk page is just making the situation worse, not better. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 19:40, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * If that is in any way a crack at me, I already apologized, as I didn't realize that this had become policy. [[Image:Isk8.png]]Isk8 19:46, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * It wasn't. --<font face="vivaldi" size="3"> Shadow crest   19:47, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Nope, not against you, it's actually more of a pun against gww people since the whole policy farce there. -- [[Image:User Gem sig.png|Gem]] (gem / talk) 23:38, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Warning
For anything but the most massive attacks, I like to post a warning to the vandal's talk page to use the Sandbox for test edits or risk a ban, and believe that is in keeping with this policy. After this has been posted, there may be one more vandal edit, because the vandal may not be aware of the warning until that is saved, but if the vandalism continues, down comes the banstick - no further discussion, no fuss. I think that is the most lenient any admin is going to get, and many don't even bother with the warning. --◄mendel► 11:31, 8 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm fine with warnings as long as they are not taunting or sound like "threats" which might end up being provoking and become counter productive. That said, there are situations where I wouldn't bother with warnings before banning for certain vandalism activities, though I would never punish any nicely worded warnings by others. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 00:45, 9 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Whether I give a warning or not really depends on if I am in a good or bad mood. :\ [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:04, 9 December 2008 (UTC)


 * If I see one weird/stupid/wtf?/vandal-ish edit, I assume they just made a mistake and revert it, if they haven't self-reverted already. If I see a second one, I'll post a warning.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 03:24, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

define a vandal
It occurs to me that from time to time we had disagreements over what constitutes a vandal. They mostly centered around what the putative vandal intended to do, i.e. what we knew about what was on his or her mind. This is a messy and rarely satisfying procedure. It would be better to define a vandal by his actions, rather than his mindset - that way, we'd have clear criteria that can be more fruitfully discussed.

The definition I offer is this:
 * A vandal is someone whose majority of edits does not improve the wiki, but creates work for others.

This definition covers the "obvious" vandal who posts spam or obscenties; but it also covers those who make meaningless changes to a number of pages. The criteria are clear: there must be a certain period of edits considered (if there is only one, then that one); if many (if not all) of them have been reverted or will be, that is a strong indication that we are dealing with a vandal. The amount of improvement or damage to the wiki, viewed over all of the putative vandal's edits over the time period in question, and the amount of work caused for others play a part in determining the sanction, which might range from a warning to a permablock. Intentions would only come into this as a secondary factor when weighing the severity of the deed.

What do you think? --◄mendel► 15:53, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Define majority. And obvious vandal is obvious, just slap a ban on it. One edit for that kind of vandal is enough. I'd say 3 edits for the less obvious kind of vandal. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 18:20, 1 June 2011 (UTC)