MediaWiki talk:Addsection

My two cents
The "new message" looks ugly and unnecessary - there is a tooltip on scroll over of the button, so that users can understand what it means, and it's going to cause confusion to a user once only - I don't see any links or any discussion in an edit summary of pan's or anywhere using a quick wikisearch. So i've changed it back, if you have any comments please leave under here, once we have some comments, and if people disgaree with me (like they have in many occasions), sure change it back, but it looks kinda ugly as new message, and needs discussion before it is changed Random Time  20:46, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
 * And, as well, the New Message pushes my tabs to the side :< &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 20:47, 10 February 2009 (UTC)


 * By the same token, I also don't see any discussion changing it to a "+". Maybe we should just delete it and let the MW/Wikia default take over?  It was only a "+" because WP did it that way IMO, and now even Wikipedia doesn't use the plus sign anymore.  I'm all for abbreviating to save space when it only affects experienced users (example, Prot and Del tabs are abbreviated), but for general stuff that affects even new users I'd like to make things more obvious instead of relying on tooltips. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 21:28, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't really care either way, although I am used to the +. (KyleH said somewhere that most experienced users use "edit" and most inexperienced ones use "+" anyway.) I mean, I don't have that many tabs, so it's not a huge deal. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 21:32, 10 February 2009 (UTC)


 * BTW, for ppl who add customized tabs, you can look at what I did in my Wikia global skin (which you can adapt for your monobook): w:User:PanSola/global.css. Basically I gave all tabs a max-width, so things like "History" tab I only see "Hist" (and the first part of the 'o').  Saves a lot of space without decreasing usability for me. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 21:38, 10 February 2009 (UTC)


 * For clarification, my change was to "new section", not "new message". -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 21:41, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia does use a "+" Source Random Time  22:46, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, for further clarification, mediawiki default is a +, wikia is a different message, I changed it back when wikia fiddled with our interface Random Time  22:48, 10 February 2009 (UTC)


 * [[Image:Wikipedia_anon_addsection_tab.png|thumb]] Wikipedia for anons use "new section", not "+". I don't know what you see or how WP made logged in users see a different message.  In this case, I believe what Wikipedia currently does ("new section" to anons) makes more sense than what they used to do ("+"). -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 23:00, 10 February 2009 (UTC)


 * RT, it's your customized JS that renames your tab to a +. See wikipedia:User:Ioeth/friendlytabs.js. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 23:03, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Anon and Monaco users see a "speech bubble" icon next to the "+", that seems intuitive enough. Monobook users know what the "+" is for. ;-) --85.16.72.193 14:07, 11 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Not all Monobook users know what it is. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  14:16, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

evidence
What evidence do you have that this is not intuitive to the newer generations? Was Progr serious? -- ◄mendel► 09:01, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

The non-intuitive thing is that a user who wants to add a new section scrolls to the bottom where he wants to edit the section, and the nearest "edit" he sees is the edit link for the section above, so he uses that. What we'd want to address this is a "leave a comment" button at the bottom of the page. This can actually be achieved for talkpages that have a custom header, so maybe ... hmmm ... (runs off to his secret wikilab) -- ◄mendel► 09:08, 11 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Prog presumably was serious; even if you explain something like that, he'd forget about even being told about it :) --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  14:04, 11 February 2009 (UTC)


 * See Template:NewSection. --85.16.72.193 14:07, 11 February 2009 (UTC)


 * That is a local solution, I seek a global one. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 17:17, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, I'm not sure how people who find "add section" not beautiful at the top would find the stuff beautiful at the bottom. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 17:21, 11 February 2009 (UTC)


 * As one evidence -- Wikipedia bothered to move away from the original software default (which is typically customized FOR the English Wikipedia community). -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 17:17, 11 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Why would somebody new to MediaWiki expect a plus sign to mean "add a section"? For all a new person knows, it could mean "add this page to your bookmarks/favorites", "rate this discussion up", "increase (something) of this page".  I challenge the "it's explained in the tooltips so it's good enough" mentality.  By that logic, we can abbreviate every single tab to some elegant single-letter/symbol, and let everyone figure out what each tab does by habit or tooltip.  The tooltip helps as a supplemental explaination, but it should NOT be the main method of finding out how our Wiki interface functions. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 22:09, 11 February 2009 (UTC)


 * There's also the speech bubble, so it means "add something to say". -- ◄mendel► 22:27, 11 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Or "add the conversation (to bookmarks)" -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 22:39, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Have a look at the history of Request assistance; on a cursory examination, most users have been able to add new sections when asking a question, even before the template was up (haven't looked too far back, though). -- ◄mendel► 00:13, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * OTOH there was a link in the text for that. :-P -- ◄mendel► 00:13, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Can you do me the favor of crossing out your own text when you rebut yourself? d-: -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 00:38, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. -- ◄mendel► 00:43, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * No. -- ◄mendel► 00:43, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe. -- ◄mendel► 00:43, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Issues
What are the main issues with changing it to "add section", besides a subjective standard of beauty and people with customized tabs finding it too cluttered? -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 17:17, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
 * People with non-customized admin tabs (myself) finding it cluttered. -- ◄mendel► 21:37, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd like to be able to expect administrators to put up with minor inconveniences if it helps other users with a practice generally beneficial to the wiki d-: -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 01:02, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I vaguely recall it being bigger (as in, actual words rather than just one character) at some point in the past, possibly before the Wikia move. To be honest, I think the "+" is too small. The other tabs are much easier to click on because they're bigger. And if people with customized tags find it too cluttered... can't they just customize it back? Think about the people with clicking disorders who don't know how to make customized tags(myself included)! --Macros 01:10, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I have no customized tabs, I'm "just" an admin. I've seen the German translations btw, most of tehm are longer and wrap something fierce; if you get into that (which we're not yet), it's not a "minor" inconvenience. -- ◄mendel► 01:55, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) How would you feel if we did two designs, choosing by the language preference (we have "en" and "en-gb")? (Can we do that with the .css files, too?) -- ◄mendel► 02:01, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * A "new" language just for that 1 change? o_O How much effort does it take to make a new language, even if it's still english? --Macros 02:08, 16 February 2009 (UTC)


 * My primary concern is for anons and new users, so to me your proposal translates to "anyone who wants to only see '+' should switch to en-gb". Do you feel comfortable proposing that?  An alternative is to do it in JS, don't think there is a simiple CSS solution. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 02:57, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * That is indeed what I am proposing. Macros, if you look in your prefs, the language is already there, I set the sidebar for Monaco this week, monobook's not much harder, and the messages default to "normal" English if they're not changed. In other words, it takes hardly any effort at all. Clarifying my .css comment: if we had a MediaWiki:common.css/en-gb page, would it get used? or common/en-gb.css ? -- ◄mendel► 03:15, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * never tested. My bet is no,it'd use regular css instead of /lang, but I never tested that idea. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 09:52, 16 February 2009 (UTC)