GuildWiki talk:No original builds

In Support of Original Builds
Before I start, let me state without bias that I understand the problems maintaining the Build section. It has become a monster, and it's WAY out of control. However, on occasion, out of control monsters are not a bad thing. Honestly, the whole point of a wiki as I understand it is to relinquish control to the users. If voting is causing too many violations of GW:NPA, fine...do away with voting, but I don't see that as a reason to get rid of what is arguably a useful section (1).

There are uses to the build section beyond "I need a good build for my Whammo, so let's go check wiki". For that kind of build searching we can all agree that GuildWiki falls short of many other sites. Honestly, that's not how I use the GuildWiki build section, and neither is that how many of my guildies use it. My favorite use of the build section is as follows: Because of the Build namespace, I can find the builds easily in the list of links. I can open these builds in tabs (or new windows for those of you not running a tabbed browser) and look at them and evaluate them for my own use. I can look at what skills synergize well with that elite, and get a feel for how it could or could not be useful or enjoyable to me. This search capability is something no other site has to offer, and does contribute substantially to documenting the game. Relegating "original builds" to userspace hinders this, because there are a lot of other perfectly valid reasons that users link to elite skills (not the least of which being unlock checklists).
 * 1) While playing I find a boss. "Wow, cool...never seen him before...wonder what his elite is.".
 * 2) I get to a safe spot, tab out, go to Wiki and find out.
 * 3) I search, via the "What Links Here" link in the toolbox, and find builds that use that elite.

Yes, I could do this research in other, more tedious ways, but that's true of almost all documentation. The reason to document something is to reduce the tedium of the next person doing similar research. While the other sites are all wonderful for "I need a build for X/Y", they are all primarily forum based and thus do not offer the broad realm of search options you get with MediaWiki.

To address the reasoning at the top of the page:
 * If it works and is worth it, it's been done already
 * Wow...that's the same argument Congress tried to use when the wanted to close the Patent office...an 1920. This kind of argument leaves no room for innovation.


 * No popular build has ever originated from GuildWiki. Popular builds are formed elsewhere.
 * Rephrased, this says 'we haven't come up with a winner, so let's quit trying'. I don't like that attitude in my children, and I don't like it here.


 * A wiki is best used for documenting
 * A wiki is best used for community collaboration. nuffsaid.


 * Some users want to play with build ideas so it is allowed, but kept in user name space to keep it out of sight for those who don't like it.
 * If the whole point is to "keep it out of sight for those who don't like it", why not move everything in the current Build section to a "Original Build: warning may contain suxage" section, and then create a "Builds we copied off of other, real, players while watching them in Ob mode" section. That way you can safely ignore my section, and I can safely ignore yours.

Am I going to rage quit the wiki over this? No. I can say, however, that this will curb the wiki's usefulness for me. I can say that I will be looking for other ways to do the research, and if I find one it may replace GuildWiki on my list of homepages that load as soon as my browser comes up.

(1) Before telling me that the section is not useful, consider your argument carefully. As I understand it, one of the theories behind a wiki is that those items that are relevant and useful will be kept up to date, while those that are irrelevant or useless will fall by the wayside. The Build section, while not necessarily kept up to date is edited -A LOT-, thus indicating that a large percentage of users are using it. Honestly, if they weren't, it wouldn't be a monster, and we wouldn't be here. Thus, in at least some way, it must be that people find it useful.

ScionOfErixalimar 13:40, 4 April 2007 (CDT)


 * If you didn't notice, the NOB policy allows original builds in user name space. It also directly states that there will be an easy system to categorise the builds. Iw it will work just like the current build section, but with the exceptions that they must be under a users user name space instead of the build name space and that the user whose name soace it is in has dictatorship over the build. Those dictators may create their own rules for the builds in their user name space, which might actually improve the original build section a bit. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 15:44, 4 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Where I see that breaking down is that user X has a build in her namespace, and user Y comes up with a variant. User X then deletes the variant because she can't play it or make it work, so Y recreates the page is his namespace to keep his variant.  I could see this happening a lot.  Fracturing the builds like this would, IMO, be very bad.  I'd rather see them in their own namespace without individual autonomous control. ScionOfErixalimar 15:57, 4 April 2007 (CDT)


 * I understand that, but most of the vocal policy discussors think that it is a bad idea to have a real namespace to promote the GW:NPA violations and the other crud. I am pretty sure that a user name space driven system will concentrate in the namespaces of a few users who form a guideline on how other users may contribute builds to their name space. This also allow everyone to choose whih name space to submit their build so they can select which rules they want to follow. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 16:31, 4 April 2007 (CDT)


 * How does having a real namespace promote GW:NPA violations? And how does putting it in the User namespace change that?  I really don't understand. ScionOfErixalimar 20:55, 4 April 2007 (CDT)

"Anything Works in PvE"
In addition to my comments above, I must say that I excluding PvE players really can't be acceptable. There are those of us who do not PvP, in any form, for any reason. I don't do it becasue when I PvP I tend to forget it's a game and then my physician lectures me over my blood pressure. I know for a fact that I'm not alone (maybe in my reasoning, but not in my policy). I am offended by the callous attitude of "anything works in PvE". While it is true that PvE offers more opportunities for flexibility than PvP, relegating PvE players to second class citizens by stating "anything works" is a bit much. So instead of dealing with the GW:NPA, this policy condemns a whole category of players. I can see that this way is much better.

ScionOfErixalimar 13:40, 4 April 2007 (CDT)


 * The aim should be to get optimised builds. They should fulfil their purpose in the best possible way. Just about anything does work in AB, RA, FA, PvE, WTFBBQ. My arguement is that we should document the game, as that is that what the wiki has always done, and does best. This cuts the development of ideas clean out &mdash; Skuld 13:55, 4 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Why should that be the aim? Why should we document Team FuBar's builds?  If we are in the business of documenting the game, we should dodge the metagame altogether and stay out of thu build business totally.  I could see that pov, and even agree with it to some extent.  However, to say that the PvP players in the top 10 guilds on the guild ladder are the ones who determine what is an optimized build and what's not is documenting the metagame, which by it's very nature is as solid as water. ScionOfErixalimar 14:39, 4 April 2007 (CDT)


 * I'm not saying that, don't put words in my mouth. I want the popular PvE builds on the wiki, but I don't want any development of builds &mdash; Skuld 14:41, 4 April 2007 (CDT)


 * No, you didn't say that, and I was not trying to say you did. Apologies.  I was trying to say that this policy implies that.  The only criteria specified in the policy are deemed successful in Observer Mode.  The criteria for PvE running/farming builds are left as an exercise to the reader, and it states specifically that -no- general PvE builds are acceptable.  So, rather than put words in your mouth, I'll ask:  who determines what is an optimized build?  Who determines what is the best possible way?  How do we define the "popular PvE builds" you think do belong?


 * I have another question. If all we're going to do is document "tried and true" builds, which is what this policy states (No Original Builds, right?), what's the point?  We can all agree that if what someone is looking for is a build that works out of the box, they go elsewhere.  There are other sites that do that and do it better.  Is this new policy going to bring the GuildWiki build section to their level?  I seriously doubt it will.  Instead, try to recognize the strengths we -do- have.  If I wanted to develop a build, I'd run it by a few guildies first, the bring it here, because I find the community here much friendlier and open to ideas than the ones on the dedicate build boards.  I find looking through other people's builds as they're being developed to be a boon to my play as well, as it can show me ideas I may not have come up with on my own.  We have a useful, helpful community.  If we take out the status symbol of "vetted" and get rid of the voting process, people won't spend their time "sockpuppetting" to get a build approved or posting the same build 16 times with minor differences trying to sneak one by, because there will be no point.  Instead allow for constructive criticizm that doesn't violate GW:NPA, and if a build falls out of favor, someone will eventually put a delete tag on it.


 * ScionOfErixalimar 15:34, 4 April 2007 (CDT)


 * actually, i could just watch in observer mode what builds are going on and copy them directly from there. --87.1.196.99 15:40, 4 April 2007 (CDT)


 * I'm a PvE-only player and still like this policy. In the NOB suggestion the wiki build name space is reserved for anything that is actual documentation of the game and popular builds (this does include a lot of PvE builds) and the user name space is reserved for creating new builds and discussing about them. Nothing is really disallowed, but it is divided differently. If you think about it, it is pretty logical. Popular in game = game content = build name space. Creating something new, trying out stuff = user name space. :) --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 15:50, 4 April 2007 (CDT)


 * When the policy specifically says no general PvE builds, I don't see where it can include a lot of PvE builds ;-P. And, last I checked, poupular in game == metagame, not game content.  71.193.185.130 16:46, 4 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Quotes from the policy suggestion:
 *  'Original' builds will be moved to userspace, where the author is in charge of it.
 * Some users will probably create rules how others can contribute build ideas in their user name space, which allows users to concentrate their builds in the name spaces of a few users and gives users the ability to choose which users rules they want to follow.
 * yah, true about the game conent != metagame, don't know what I was thinking there. :D --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 17:09, 4 April 2007 (CDT)

Just want to point out that for PvE, you can "observe" by looking at what's LFG. Minion Masters, Echo Nukers, BP Teams, Bonders and Stance Tanks (RIP Oro Farming :`, DoA teams, etc. are all NOB builds for PvE. Also, The profession guides are a great place to build a good PvE build in once they're up, IMO.--Nog64Talk 17:23, 4 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Yeah, I think the guides are a better place for 'general PvE' builds. It would be hard to regulate what kind of general PvE builds are accepted and what not, but a guide requires a lot ow work and must actually be based on something unlike a build, so general PvE stuff would do well in guides. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 17:28, 4 April 2007 (CDT)

I'm a bit late into the discussion, but the title of this section holds true. Here is my rant about why, in case you were interested. It's not an insult to PvE, it's merely game design. -Auron  19:29, 4 April 2007 (CDT)


 * After reading that I realised what we were missing. I added the following line to the accepted builds section: PvE high level areas: Builds designed for The Fissure of Woe, The Underworld, Urgoz's Warren, The Deep, Domain of Anguish and any similiar high level areas released in the future if deemed popular and succesfull. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 19:32, 4 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Again, I'm not sure I agree with the statement (see bleow). More importantly, the way the statement as phrased is incendiary.  You can feel free to say that PvE has more flexibility than PvP, and thus finding builds that work is easier (I'd agree there).  You can say that PvE gameplay is different than PvP, and builds don't necessarily overlap.  But saying "Anything Works" is more than a bit condescending.


 * I also don't agree with the sentiment behind the incendiary statement. Driving laws are designed to be grokked by any 16 yr old, but that doesn't mean "anything works" on the road, and it doesn't mean that there aren't things that work better than others, even within the law.  Likewise, just because you -CAN- beat Abaddon, or THK, or Vizunah Square with a mending tank doesn't mean it's not worth looking into better builds to do it, so it doesn't mean that a PvE section isn't useful or should be relegated into oblivion. ScionOfErixalimar 20:37, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Correct. Although, it'd be stupid as hell to list *every possible combination of skills in the game* that could beat THK/Abaddon/Viz because the "favored" section would be about sixty pages long. Is it worth it to write up W/Me Energy Surge Sword/Dom builds, even though they work? -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 20:42, 4 April 2007 (CDT)


 * It depends. Is our goal to document, or only to document what we consider worthy of documentation? ScionOfErixalimar 20:52, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * The latter. It would make little sense to document everything that works, for a few reasons; but mostly, GW is a game. Play it. Make your own builds. The people that rely on GWiki for 100% of their builds should be out there making their own and having fun, not cookie-cutting >.< -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 20:56, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Fine. Who decides what's worthy and how?  Please explain that policy? ScionOfErixalimar 20:59, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Admins. Not a fifty five 21:12, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Meh...I thought the whole reason to relegate this to userspace is so that the admins could wash their hands of it. ScionOfErixalimar 21:15, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Hardly. That would mean them doing nothing >.> Not a fifty five 21:16, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Sarcasm aside, having the admins decide what is a good build is like having librarians decide what is a good book. It doesn't work well. ScionOfErixalimar 21:26, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Exactly. That's where discussion comes into play. If you haven't noticed, pages in the main name space are formed through discussion, not voting or dictatorship, which works really well. Due to the high demands of NOB, discussion is a valid way to agreeon what should be allowed and what not. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 07:38, 6 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Admins should not decide what is a good build!!!!! I can't believe you said that, Not a fifty five!


 * Being an admin does not mean that you are an expert at the game. While there are some admins who are very familiar with PvP or PvE there are others who aren't. The builds wipe has nothing to do with admins having more control over what is classed a good build or what isn't; it's about fixing a system that is broken. Allowing users to have ownership of an article and letting other users vote to decide whether that article should be deleted or not is the source of almost all disputes on the wiki. This could be forgiven if the results of this system were good, but they are not. Terrible builds get favoured and bad builds get deleted. And this causes nothing but bad feelings between the users involved.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 13:42, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

(resetting indentation) Biro: I'm not discussing the wipe. Agree or not, it's taking place, so I decided to try and help shope the policy going forward. Yes, the voting system is broken. Honestly, I don't think we should be in the business of "vetting" builds at all. I don't see any system for that ever working, because it will always promote violations of NPA.

If what we're saying is going to work is "discussion" (as gem said above), why couldn't that work within our current build namespace? Do away with voting, and let discussion happen. Why relegate a whole category of builds to userspace/oblivion. That's what I don't understand. How does that help promote discussion? The NOB page says "easily verifiable" builds. I don't see how to define that for PvE at all.

If we were to do away with the voting and vetting process, and simply enforce existing policies that are enforced on other pages (such as NPA, YOU, etc), what would be wrong with that? We don't need to compete with Guru or Team IQ or WTFPVP, because that's not what a wiki is about. We don't need to document the FOTW, as that's done elsewhere and done better. This just doesn't make sense. Why have a build section at all if all we have is the builds posted elsewhere and done better?

Why not play to the strengths we have. We are a community. Often we are a community of noobs, newbs, and freeloaders, but we are a community. We are a community that, for the most part, enjoys a game and enjoys helping each other. So...why not allow original builds. If you don't have anything constructive to add to the discussion, or don't care to help the author better the build, you don't have to. How does that hurt the wiki? Why should we make it a policy that you -can't- do this in the build space? To protect the buildspace from what, exactly? ScionOfErixalimar 13:53, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * To protect it from uselessness.
 * If it isn't here to document the game, then what's left as the purpose of the Builds section? Why would we be sharing these builds with each other, and discussing on them? To learn from them, it seems logical to me. And there lies the problem.
 * The authors don't learn, because 1) most of the time they don't come here to learn, they come here to teach the others how great their build-making excellence is, and 2) because even if Auron or Skuld or Wings That Heals gives to the author a very wise piece of advice, it'll just get lost in the sea of terrible advice and suggestions that other less-experienced users give (Neither of these two is speculation, both of these I've observed firsthand during my time here on the wiki).
 * The same happens with "voters"/"critics"; they don't comment on a build to learn, they comment on it to be judge and jury (and executor at the same time, with the vetting system). Even if they do want to learn, it won't happen because of the sea of nonsense they need to swim through first.
 * The only way out of that is to get rid of the whole judging worthiness aspect of it. With original builds the author inevitably becomes defensive of his creation (thus taking the role of the accused), and the critics (rightfully) try to find the build's flaws (thus becoming the judge). Even if there is no voting, the defender-attacker aspect will remain there, and that's what causes conflicts and NPA.
 * Original builds are almost always going to turn into that, author defending his build versus the "attacks" of others. With non-original build that issue disappears, you're free to discuss the actual build for what it is.
 * It's also been said before that wikis are terrible as development laboratories, because group-development requires a guiding hand, a leader, someone to point at a direction for everyone to walk towards. And on a wiki there can't be such a person. With documentation on the other hand a leader isn't needed, because the direction in which everyone will go is obvious, documenting what already exists. Hence, less conflicts, less headaches, more constructive discussion. --Dirigible 15:24, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * That sounds like an argument for Post No Builds, rather than NOB. As long as what we're documenting is the metagame, there is going to be 'discussion'.  I could even, reluctantly, get behind PNB.  Again, I ask, why should we document the metagame when it is not the game, not static, and it is something other sites do and do better?  What does the wiki gain by that?
 * Also, I need to ask useless defined by whom? I have learned -a lot- from reading comments by the "buildmeisters" you mention, comments by ppl who you'd obviously qualify as "noobs", and other such critics.  Where else is that available?  If it's useless for ppl who have the skillz to get their 1337 builds posted on guru, that doesn't make it useless for the common player.  I've looked at posts on guru for OB's.  They usually have one comment, like "sux", and the thread is closed.  If you post constructive comments to a build and the author gets really defensive, don't bother to respond.  Yes, there will need to be a rash of smackdowns for NPA violations, but once that is settled, and people understand that they need to be civil to each other, I think you'd be amazed on what can come about.
 * Personally, I'd define documenting something that is clearly documented somewhere else, and better documented to boot, as useless, while giving people the opportunity to innovate, and to make mistakes, to be useful and something no other site truly offers. 148.87.1.172 16:14, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm never ever again using the phrase "less experienced users" when talking about a builds-related topic, because everyone seems to get always upset about it.
 * Agree to disagree on the rest. You think that the blind leading the blind is a good idea, I think it isn't. Good luck in life. --Dirigible 16:26, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

consensus & compromise
Since the quick outlash against the build wipe after being announced, if people actually wanted to reach a consensus and compromise, both view points are going to have to be upheld. However, since both view points automatically void one another out, the only way is to uphold both but keep them seperate. Having both a No Original Builds ('Offical') section and a Original Builds ('Experimentation') section seems to be the only way for people to both have their cake and eat it too. Isis In De Nile 17:52, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * So are you saying that this is good? Or not? --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 17:56, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * From what I've read, it isn't good. It's upholding the NOB idea but kicking the OB section to the curb. I think there should exist both a NOB and a OB build section. This current NOB policy calls for just a NOB build section with the idea OB builds can be kept in a private userspace. If there exists two distinct, navigatable, areas that are noted as 'NOB' and a 'OB', seperated from one another, and both are easy to reach to, that'll fly. Isis In De Nile 18:08, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * See my comments in the above section. The user name space is the 'new section for original builds'. Categorisation is what makes stuff easily navigabale, not the specific name space that the stuff is in. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 18:11, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * The problem I have with that is that it relegates OB to oblivion. We all know what User Space means.  User Space means the powers that be wash their hands of this.  This would imply that the NOB section is sanctioned, while the OB section isn't, and the total OB answer is "we hope someone takes control of it in their own userspace".  Personally, I'm not really satisfied with that answer. ScionOfErixalimar 18:18, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * That's the whole point.... --Dirigible 18:22, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * You re allowed to make a policy suggestion of your own based on this one. I'm not going to change a 'No original Builds' policy to actually suggest accepting both original and non-original builds, but I wouldn't oppose a policy like that, atleast not atm. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 18:23, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I disagree. Currently it is quite impossible to make a new builds policy.  Consensus doesn't work because at least 40% ALWAYS will not give something a chance to at least be TRIED OUT even if it may have a few kinks in it.  I can't even make a link to an offsite test forum I'm making to test a new builds format apparently! What harm to the wiki does this incur! If the admins didn't blatantly curb any attempt to help the builds section maybe a policy would be able to occur.  Until then... I wouldn't bother. Not a fifty five 19:47, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Umm, why wouldn't you be allowed to link to a test site off that resides of the wiki? It is not impossible to create a new suggestion and get people to discuss about it. For example the NOB was almost being deleted, but see what happened when a few users pushed it? --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 19:51, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * The link has been taken down and now I'm basically forced to write criteria for allowing links to offsite forums if I want to out it back up, get it ratified, i.e. have the link down for about a week and have the forum's current members move on to other things. (Not a fifty five 19:54, 4 April 2007 (CDT))
 * What are you talking about? Please provide me a link to a discussion, history of edits or what ever. I'm totally lost. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 20:02, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Check the talk page of the main builds page, it there.--Nog64Talk [[Image:Yaaaay.png|19px]] 20:06, 4 April 2007 (CDT)

I like waht Gem added to this page (and what Defiant started) so I expanded the idea a little and formulated it in a way that the builds are linked to the "grid" yet they are not part of Guildwiki, because they are in userspace: Publish_your_build. --Vazze 22:41, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
 * This sounds a lot like the site I've talked about above. The difference is just semantics, experienced users are the editors and each one has to "sign" a build before it enters "untested" (library) This is just a talk page so I can provide the link  Not a fifty five 02:30, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * is only one library, and it is off-site. This is on-site and it consists of more libraries: authors/readers have options. --Vazze 12:54, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Did I understand correctly that that suggestion is meant to be used with NOB? Ie NOB says what is allowed in the build name space and the rest of the builds that are in the user name space work according to PYB? --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 14:11, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Techically NOB is compatible with PYB: in PYB builds are in user name space (of the author), the links of these builds are organized into various separate libraries in user name space (of the editors), and only the editors are linked to the a build name space on the Build Discussions (/Build Libraries/ Build Workshop) page. (see PYB for details) --Vazze 14:42, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * My opinnion is that NOB should be the main build policy and PYB the policy for those builds that are only allowed in user name space. (although both still need to be refined a bit) --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (gem / talk) 15:13, 5 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Well sure the difference is offsite and on-site, but the one library acts as your multiple libraries pretty much, the editor(s) who sign(s) a build is noted on whatever build is passed on. There is one difference in that, after a certain amount of editors join, a build needs more than one.  Not a fifty five 14:50, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * I think we are talking about very different concepts: the editors in PYB are NOT cooperating. They are competing for readers and authors! Each editor organizes his/her own library. --Vazze 15:08, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Hmm.. Doesn't sound very good to me imo then. If you get say 20 editors one of them is bound to accept your build.  Besides, what criteria is made for an editor?  I can easily see many editors who would accept just about any build.  (Not a fifty five 15:28, 5 April 2007 (CDT))