Talk:Golem

The part about Elementals being near areas of magic doesn't make sense for all the elementals found in Pre-Searing. --Rainith 12:15, 7 Sep 2005 (EST)


 * Elementals in Pre-Searing are mostly found around "Wizard's Folly" which is an area of magical disturbance. --Karlos 17:25, 28 Sep 2005 (EST)

creations of magicians?
Golems are the creation of magicians who animate them to act as the muscle for the magician's brain.

Where did that info come from? I had always thought they were just magical acts of nature. -PanSola 10:52, 13 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Those are Elementals. --Karlos 18:07, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Well them too. I guess I meant "magical acts of evolution of nature" for golems.  Golems seem to just roam around, minding their own business, as opposed to serving anyone in particular's will.  They aren't really used as troops of any army at all, just part of the "wild life".  So I'm still questioning where was it said that they are creations of magicians to act as the muscles. -PanSola 02:26, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Golem. I don't think the game's golems' origins are mentioned anywhere in Guild Wars lore, but in, I dunno, every bit of fantasy literature ever, golems are created as some kind of servant, elementals are living embodiments of classical Grecian elements. Just the way it is, man. ;) --Nunix 02:58, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
 * So are you trying to deny GW of another potential uniqueness? d-: I thought there are "wild" golems in some fantasy literatures too...  Anyways, if the game itself or official lore/manual stuff don't mention Golem's origins, I'm going to remove that line.  Count down 3 days before someone submit GW-related evidence. -PanSola 03:06, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually, there are no Golems in the game that roam the wild. Where are those? The Ice Golems are in the service of the Stone Summit, and even those traveling with Ice Imps and Pinesouls will drop Stone Summit Badges. The other Golems are the Crystal Golems and they are servants of Glint. I have no idea who moved Abominations INTO Golems, but they should not be there.
 * The evidence is stacked against you.. YIELD!! :) --Karlos 10:11, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
 * If you take a look at the section immediately below, you would notice that I already yielded before you told me to. I was thinking the Flesh Golem and the rest of Abominiations when I made the above comments.  There is ONE golem that roams wild, the Stone Golem.  But that relates to the section underneath and not really this one.


 * As for I have no idea who moved Abominations INTO Golems, but they should not be there, I have some idea. EXPLAIN YOURSELF! d-: -PanSola 10:50, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Blah, I eat my words. Stone Golem is summoned, not roaming wild.  No idea who created it or if it serves anyone though. -PanSola 10:53, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, it has always been an iffy move for me. The ones in Dragon't Gullet or Perdition Rock simply do not seem to have any kind of creator. I moved them there because of the word "Flesh GOLEM" not really because I think they are. --Karlos 15:28, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Proposal: merge Golems (minus abominations) and Elementals into one species
I just realized the "Golems" I was thinking about was the "abomination" sub-species. I didn't realize Ice Golems were categorized under Golem as opposed to Elementals.

I would like to argue that golems of ice and other stuff are actually of the Elemental species. Especially judging from what they drop. The only argument you can say they are different species is from the fact that they have different names. In which case we should test how Edge of Extinction functions on Stone Golem when a Stone Elemental dies nearby.

Abominitions should be their own full species, not a sub-species under Golems. Unless your ribcage looks like a lodestone. -PanSola 03:27, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I would have used Encrusted Lodestones as evidence that Sand Elementals and Crystal Spiders are the same species. However, Ice Golems showed that the drop type isn't really by species, darn. -PanSola 10:46, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I have tested Stone Golem with EoE and verified it is same type of creature as Stone Elemental. On January 2 I will separate Abomination from Golem and merge Golem under Elemental unless sound objections are made. -PanSola 23:26, 26 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Here's a sound objection: They USED to be one species and we decided to split them in two. Check the history of this article and you'll see that it used to include Elementals then that was taken out into a separate species to indicate the difference in how they are made. I would recommend we not make this a personal preference thing where one day use X decides Elementals are a separate species, then user Pansola decides they are not, then user Y comes by 2 months later to decide they are. Please come up with a criteria that applies to all, not just this golem thing. --Karlos 23:39, 26 December 2005 (UTC)


 * In which case, I petition a formal review the past decision/action of separating species based on conjecture of how they were made. I agree with you that not to make this a personal preference thing.  My criteria for species is based on Edge of Extinction, plus the collectable drops which aren't always served as delineation of species (such as Stone Summit which isn't a species), but sometimes ARE used for such purpose (in the case of Smite Crawler, you used their drops as the reason to change the species from Crawler to Phantom).
 * At the minimal, I plea to remove Abmonition as a sub-species of Golem, even if the Elemental vs Golem issue remain in debate. Again, Stone Golem and Stone Elemental are same type of creature as verified by Edge of Extinction.  -PanSola 00:37, 27 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Fell free to move the Abominations out of golems, they clearly drop corpses which Golems do not. As for the bigger issue of how to divide the Bestiary, let's talk about it in talk:Bestiary. --Karlos 00:49, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Abomination has be removed as a sub-category of Golems. -PanSola 07:37, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

EoE check and implications
Contary to my personal expectations, Stone Elementals and Enchanted Snowman are not the same type of creature according to EoE. Current tests indicate it more likely than not that Siege Ice Golems are same type as Enchanted Snowman, but it's hard to be absolutely certain since both sides have multi-target damage spells.

Stone Golem, being the same type of creature as Stone Elementals, do not take damage from death of Enchanted Snowman.

To rationalize the Elemental vs Golem split, one can argue Stone Golem is simply misnamed creature, and classify it as Elemental instead of Golem.

On the other hand, it is also possible that creature type distinction is different from we thought, with Earth-based and Water-based being different types of creature. Unfortunately Ice Elementals only exist in Pre-Searing, and Edge of Extinction is only available in Post-Searing, preventing other methods of testing. Stone Golem becomes the singular supporting evidence.


 * Update: It seems that the alpha-testing accounts can learn any skill at any time. I have asked a friend of mine who was in alpha to test Stone Elemental vs Ice Elemental in Pre-Searing, hope to hear from him soon. -PanSola 01:20, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Golem vs Undead
Flesh golems are not animated bodies of dead people, they are an animated amalgam of flesh. Difference is clear. Flesh is used as a raw material, just like Ice or Crystal. You cannot say, this Flesh Golem is the animated body of Prince Rurik, but yuo can say so about the Undead.

This is, assuming we keep Abominations under Golems. --Karlos 10:18, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree abominations aren't undead. I disagree abominations should be under Golem.  -PanSola 10:58, 14 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Dead Collectors, The Underworld version of Flesh Golems are mentioned to be indeed made from the bodies of the dead. Whether they are made from just one body or several to create one i'm not sure. The Reaper of the Bone Pits talks about this.--The King Tarosian 00:53, 27 December 2005 (UTC)


 * That would include the Dead Threshers too. --Karlos 01:01, 27 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes it would :).--The King Tarosian 01:12, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

WTF
How the hell is a Flesh Golem not a golem? --Old Man Of Ascalon   (T/C) 21:48, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
 * There's two flesh golems; the minion one is undead and the Ring of Fire monster is an abomination. And they're flesh; "Golems are an animation of non-living materials. This is usually in the form of raw materials, such as Ice Golems". --Shadowcrest 21:51, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, but flesh golems are an amalgamation of non-living material: They're made out of dead bodies. Corpses are certainly raw materials, heh.  The only criteria that makes something a golem is that it's a construct that's been magically animated. -Gildan Bladeborn 22:05, 4 December 2007 (UTC)