GuildWiki talk:Community portal/Archive 17

You broke GWiki for browsers
Since some time, about 1-3 weeks I can't remember exactly, the Guildwiki is broken. Following issues: it's kinda hard to explain, when you type, the typing will just go outside on the right side and you can't see what you type anymore Everything worked fine before, please look into these issues. --62.158.104.40 14:43, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Internet Explorer 6: Huge spacer on the right side which serves no purpose other than make a scrollbar appear
 * When in the field where you type stuff like comments, like I am doing now, you can write "outside" of the box,
 * Opera 9: Same annoying spacer on the right side,
 * can't even contribute anymore in Opera, since when you press "Save Page", it will show a preview, and that preview is BLANK.


 * I'm not certain, but it sounds like all of those are issues with the new Monaco skin (which was forced on us by Wikia). I suggest you create an account, then follow the directions here to set your skin to the classic (and bug-free) Monobook.  As a bonus, using Monobook while logged-in will also remove almost all the ads from the site.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:24, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Quizzical (iirc) also filed a complaint about Opera being completely disfunctional. However, he didn't say anything about a white space, afaik.. O_o" IE6 is just a hopeless browser ;) --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  16:35, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * No matter if a browser is "hopeless" or not, it's not like they're using a 10-year old program. There's no reason for it to be broken to hell like it is.  Revert the default skin to Monobook until Monaco isn't crawling with bugs.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 17:21, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Generally a newer version is a version with less bugs and (visual) glitches, mrite? --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  17:25, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * True for IE6-7, but what about the Opera problems? And some people still prefer IE6 over 7, I was one of them, but I got so annoyed with wiki not working right in 6, that I finally cracked and downloaded 7.  I think wiki should be a type of site that works ALWAYS, instead of being specialized to one single browser.  It has a very large userbase, both net-savvy and not, and it should keep that in mind.  Leave the fancy crap out if it doesn't work for half of the users out there.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 18:29, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, Microsoft just needs to figure out that standards compliance is a "good thing", then 99% of the browser-compatibility issues will go away (because 99% of them are caused by people coding websites for IE, which is maybe 50% standards-compliant, instead of coding to the standards, of which Firefox and Opera are 99%-compliant). All figures in the preceding comment are gross estimates, don't take them as fact!  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 18:40, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * As for IE, I have run GWiki in the latest versions of IE and it looks fine. However I will check again. The site should work in all browsers. I don't use Opera myself but I will investigate it. I will see what I can do to make sure that Gwiki works reasonably well in all browsers. In the meantime, I do recommend making an account so that it doesn't stop you from contributing and using Guild Wiki. &mdash;♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 18:47, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Alright I just previewed GWiki in IE7 and it looks fine. I cannot make any guarantees about older versions so I recommend upgrading. I'll look into Opera later today. &mdash;♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 18:51, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Heya. The Opera problem is a known issue and we're working to resolve it.  I anticipate that it will be fixed soon.  The bugs with IE6 are problems with the GuildWiki custom CSS (rather than Monaco itself), and I've been playing around with and working to fix for you.  Unfortunately, there aren't any useful debugging tools for IE6, so it's a pretty big pain to figure out the problems.  Fortunately, for IE, the bugs are annoyances ... I think all the show-stopping bugs are gone.  If any of you CSS gurus are bored and want to try to fix some of the IE6 bugs, I've set up a test wiki here ... I can make you a sysop if you want to play around without flooding GuildWiki's recent changes.  --KyleH (talk) 19:16, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * As the problems seem to be in monaco.css, logged in IE6 users can just switch to another Monaco theme if they don't like Monobook. Better yet, switch to a browser that supports CSS2 properly. --◄mendel► 01:01, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * IE6 is not the latest version of IE. I don't feel obligated to make us compatible with browsers that should be updated&mdash;♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 03:23, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * For browsing, the wiki doesn't look appreciably different in Opera 9.51 from Firefox 3.0.1. There is a very thin empty space just left of the scroll bar in both browsers, but it looks fine to me.  Opera does have a sidebar feature that sometimes shows up at nuisance times if you click on something wrong; by default, it appears on the left side, though, not the right.  If that's your problem, F4 will get rid of it.


 * The problem with Opera right now is that some Wikia bug prevents the browser from saving edits. If you're only going to read the wiki, and not edit anything, Opera works just fine.  Indeed, I'd argue that it works better than Firefox, mainly because of mouse gestures that make it easier to navigate pages.  The Wand is also quite useful when the wiki logs you out.  Quizzical 05:44, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, then don't hesitate to add mouse gestures to firefox here. --◄mendel► 08:58, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * It seems fixed now :P

Question Regarding Widgets
Moved to GuildWiki:Wikia staff noticeboard.

EotN PvE skill discrepancies
A number of PvE-only skills in EotN currently have discrepancies between the progressions given in the and what is actually showing up in-game. This was first discovered on Feel No Pain, where the notes said the Health regen should be 1...3 and no change to the health boost (previously 100...200), but it was discovered to be 2...3/200...300 in-game. Today, Radiation Field was edited for the same reason: from the notes, it should be duration 4...6, Health degen 2...5, and Disease 12...20; in-game, it is duration 5 (not green, so not variable), degen 4...6, and Disease 12...20.

My main character has all EotN PvE skills, so I checked his numbers against what we have, and I found that the following skills also have this problem. Based on his numbers at rank 7 in Asura/Deldrimor, and values for r0 obtained using CheatEngine on a mule character with no ranks, I extrapolated the second table for the "real" progressions.

Could other people please report their numbers for these skills at other title ranks to verify the correct progressions? &mdash;Dr Ishmael 23:12, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Smooth Criminal Correct at R3 according to your chart, 13/6. (Rank 5 also correct, 15/7. Don't have earbite or low blow, unfortunately. -- [[Image:Isk8.png]]   Isk8   (T/C) 23:29, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * All three correct at 5 Asura/6 Deld[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]] Entrea   [Talk]  23:53, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) You can get R0 easier. Just equip a skill and look at your template. Templates always show R0. A few skills had bad descriptions at the update page, and I don't know what rank range Anet used when posting that... Anyway I have characters with max or 0 so can't help here :( &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 23:56, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Checked on my wife's main character (should've thought of that sooner), r6 Asuran/r5Deldrimor (backwards from Entrea), and her numbers also match the table. Seems sufficient evidence to me.  I'm-a gonna go modify them there templates now.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 02:35, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

abbreviation redirects to pvp versions
There are some skills which are more commonly used in PvP and that is where you are more likely to see the abbreviation. I would like to have the redirects for some of them point to the PvP version by default for those skills. I would make a list first in case PvE players want to point out that the abbreviation is equally common in PvE. Does anyone have any thoughts about this?&mdash;♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 17:03, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The PvE skills are the unaltered forms; that would be like pug redirecting to Dog instead of PUG. So, no. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 17:19, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Not always - in some cases the PvP skill is the unaltered, pre-split version, while the PvE skill was the one that changed. I don't see a problem with changing some of those redirects, especially for abbreviations that are rarely used in PvE.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 18:39, 24 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Unaltered form? Unyielding Aura is changed for PvE specifically. Fallacious logic. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  18:40, 24 August 2008 (UTC)


 * SciFi is having a cookie and a javascript hooked in that, if it detects a redirect to the game mode you don't prefer, re-redirects that automatically. --◄mendel► 22:55, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Reused Item skins
The Ancient Hornbow, Ancient Longbow and Ancient Flatbow share a skin, as well as the Ancient Shortbow & Ancient Recurve Bow.
 * Should we merge those, like we did with the Destroyer/BMP skins?
 * They all drop in the same basic region anyhow (The Desolation for Ancient), so that's not a problem.
 * Currently, there is no standard on it. My opinion is one shared page, and redirects.
 * I feel it's redundant to show the same skin 5 times, of which two (three if counting PvP reward Bow) are a minor variant.
 * It reduces the clutter on the Gallery page.
 * And should we merge the other shared skins?


 * Tormented/Bramble/Plagueborn/Skull/Vabbian/Azure/Bladed aint merged either.
 * If there are others, please tell. I just glanced over the Gallery.

Oh, side note: The Ancient Bow page exists because of the PvP reward item, which shares it's skin with the Short/Recurve bow. --- -- (s)talkpage  17:32, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * It needs more work either way. If we do a listing of bows by skin, this won't matter. If we want to have a gallery of just a single bow type (say, Hornbows) we need the "bowclass" attribute in the BowInfo, and if these bow "families" share a page, that probably means an awkward "name1=", "bowclass1=", "name2=", "bowclass2=" in the template. I just dunno. I think it's not too big a deal at the moment, especially when the gallery system is still in flux.
 * It would actually make a lot of sense to separate the bows into 5 categories - we don't put swords, axes and hammers in the same category, either. That would eliminate the need for "bowclass" completely. Or keep single pages for each bow in the family, and transclude the location and notes across them? --◄mendel► 18:47, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Personally, I'm for merging Bow articles. They're all bows... &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 16:21, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I would still like to see a differentiation between, for example, the Tormented Longbow and Shortbow skins, they look quite different. That can be done within the Tormented Bow article.  But, both of the skin variations should still be in the Gallery.  You can try to come up with a name convention of sorts, like the greater/normal that I'm seeing in the Ancient Bow, since in-game they're named the same (right?).  Same goes for all other skins with this 2-3 split between bow types/skins.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 17:23, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * An example of a 2 skin bow set is Undead Bow. You don't have to combine the picture though. The navbox can handle more then one image (Steel Daggers). Oh, and Lesser, "Normal" and Greater weapons are totally different skins altogether with different names. Previously we had different skins in one name (like the Steel Daggers), but in EotN weapons that behave like that are named different. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 21:53, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Monster and NPC screenshots missing
I just updated the Monster images project with a long list of missing screenshots. These aren't all strictly monsters, quite a few NPCs (including PvP Zaishen), including quest-specific NPCs, have their pictures missing as well. Take a short look at the Style_and_formatting/Images guide and go on a photo safari! --◄mendel► 15:23, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * New list just in. In the past week or so, some editors (special thanks to Mrguildboi and Wizardboy777!) have provided 25 images and changed (2.55% missing) to (2.08% missing). Good job! --◄mendel► 20:09, 1 August 2008 (UTC)


 * New list just in. It's been awhile because the dump has been damaged (thanks to Dr ishmael for spotting that). There've been some uploads by half a dozen contributors, most prominently (and recently) User:Bikeboy854. We're at 1.82% missing images now, good job! --◄mendel► 13:42, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Not a Fansite?
I was looking on the official guild wars page, and then stumbled upon the the list of fansites. I was suprised that this site wasn't listed on there. Why is it not? I mean the wiki is popular, its part of the reason A-Net made their own. Is it because they don't like us because we're separate from their wiki, or is it that they don't think its really important. I mean, GuildWiki is usually more factual that GuildWarsWiki, and has notes that are more helpful than on their site. Is it just because GuildWiki is not connected to A-Net like GuildWarsWiki? Arcdash 01:01, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * They feel the GWiki (this here) shouldn't be promoted to draw more attention to the GWWiki (official), or something akin ot that. Basically, they're boycotting us :O I think --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  12:49, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * When i questioned our non-appearance on the fansite list some GWW person leapt to Anets defence - apparently the reason Anet made their own wiki is because of some licenscing law which means copyright bla bla NS-C something something license bla bla entails the copying of content under GDFL something and so forth meant that this wiki couldnt be linked to from the in-game help menu, so they had to make their own wiki to achieve help-menu linkage. And as such, because of this license stuff and the fact that they seem to beleive that since they've now got an official wiki we should just quietly close down or something, we can't be listed as a fansite - its all in the copyright--[[Image:Cobalt6.jpg|50x19px]] - (Talk /Contribs ) 14:41, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * We used to be a Specialty Fansite, but stooped being one right after the official wiki went live so yeah... -_- "According to Wikipedia GW.com, we don't exist!" &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 14:57, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * We lost fansite status around October 12, 2007, or so. Check the Fansite and Fansite status pages too. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 16:55, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Upgrade to MediaWiki 1.13
The upgrade is due sometime next week, KyleH has announced it here and asked for bug reports to be posted on that page as well. --◄mendel► 12:07, 6 September 2008 (UTC) (edited 18:10, 6 September 2008 (UTC))
 * The link is fubar ("Not a valid Wikia" error). Is this it? &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 14:02, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * W00t - I think Release notes Random Time  14:20, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * At last we get hiddencat (lets it be in a cat without the cat showing on the page) Random Time  14:22, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Two features I see that I like:
 * Automatically move subpages when moving a page
 * Automatically fix double redirects when moving a page
 * Much less work for me. :D &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:42, 6 September 2008 (UTC)


 * <3 Faster human-botmode is faster. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  15:47, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I hate you
Ok, ever since you joined wikia, things have been going bad.
 * The site is waaaaay to laggy
 * The skin is gay
 * The new buttons are cool, but the skin is gay
 * from the site being so messed up, it's making me go to gwwiki- why are you torturing me like that?
 * i cant use the url anymore, i have to go to pvx, then find a link to come here
 * it crashed my computer
 * it doesnt even look good
 * the search bar is messed up
 * in the top right corner it has My Watchlist and Contributions are hidden, thats gay
 * Joining wikia isnt a good thing, its just, idk, just bad--[[image:"Burn Baby Burn!".jpg|19px]]‎ Fire</tt>  To</tt>ck</tt>  21:49, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * You can change back to monobook in Special:Preferences - you can still hate wikia though <font color="Orange">Random <font color="Black">Time  21:53, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Not for me.
 * Change it. I like monaco.
 * QQ? GWW isn't the end of the earth either.
 * guildwars.wikia.com- Simple. easier than the old one, imo.
 * I doubt it was actually us.
 * You've said that. Change your skin or use the monaco-customizations.
 * Yes, I hate the new search bar, but I don't mind that much.
 * If the droplist weren't broken half the time I wouldn't mind. And your watchlist isn't hidden, only your prefs and contribs, and who checks those frequently anyway?
 * ...lolwhat? --<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="Steelblue">Shadowcrest  21:56, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * You consider it you be:
 * gay       /geɪ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[gey] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation adjective, -er, -est, noun, adverb
 * –adjective
 * 1.	having or showing a merry, lively mood: gay spirits; gay music.
 * 2.	bright or showy: gay colors; gay ornaments.
 * 3.	given to or abounding in social or other pleasures: a gay social season.
 * 4.	licentious; dissipated; wanton: The baron is a gay old rogue with an eye for the ladies.
 * 5.	homosexual.
 * 6.	of, indicating, or supporting homosexual interests or issues: a gay organization.
 * –noun
 * 7.	a homosexual person, esp. a male.
 * –adverb
 * 8.	in a gay manner.
 * Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
 * Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006. --[[Image:OrgXSignature.jpg]] 22:05, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
 * Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006. --[[Image:OrgXSignature.jpg]] 22:05, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gay
 * Searchbar: just don't use it. If you have a search box on your toolbar, click the little triangle next to it NOW and add this wiki to it. --◄mendel► 23:17, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Firetock, what browser/version are you using? Can you screenshot the Searchbar and Watchlist issues?  You might be observing something that is not typical of the general user experience. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 19:09, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Shouts without quotes issue
Has Anet fixed this? &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:M.mendel (contribs) 04:04, 13 September 2008.


 * Nope, and they haven't even commented on the bug reports that Gimme submitted a month ago. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:42, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Guildwars Texture Quiz
The quiz is at User:M.mendel/Quiz1.

I'd put a link on the Communty Portal itself, but we don't do links into userspace? --◄mendel► 09:30, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

GuildWiki Security
As many of you might or might not know, PvX was recently hacked. Their entire database + backups were destroyed, but luckily someone had a downloaded database. Is GuildWiki safe enough to survive such an attack? Chances are that they might strike again. <font face = "Matura MT Script Capitals">Silver Sunlight 19:13, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I think wikia has enough security - don't they? <font color="Orange">Random <font color="Black">Time  19:27, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Wikia ought to have enough security...and in any case I am sure someone has the full current DB dump on their computer. Somehow I also think we are less of a target for this sort of thing, since it's...different...at PvX. :p The most risk I can see is a terrimad Gravewit griefer coming back for belated revenge. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 19:38, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * O yes that's true... I kind of forgot about Wikia's existence :P <font face = "Matura MT Script Capitals">Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|19px]] 19:57, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I download the current pages dump pretty quickly after it comes out, usually once a week, but sometimes wikia fails (last week they had the Mediwiki 1.13 rollout, so no dump). I also have an all pages dump of mid-august, but as it's 1 GB (8GB expanded) and it's not terribly useful (can't be used with awk as all that happens is that my harddisk (giga)thrashes a lot) I won't be updating that much. We don't currently have a download of all images; if we had those destroyed right now, we'd probably have to grab the whole set from gww. I could imagine grabbing all of these from the server, but in theory Wikia have off-site backup in another state, at least that's what staff (sannse?) told me on irc. --◄mendel► 21:06, 17 September 2008 (UTC) & 21:11, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't think guildwiki/guild wars wiki are in any danger - the problem with PvX was a security hole in our version of MySQL, and GuildWiki/GWW use newer versions (so what probably happened was a newer version fixed said security hole and some hacker reverse-engineered the patch to find out what was fixed and then used that knowledge to take down unpatched versions, which is actually a fairly common practice and is why you should always keep your computer up-to-date). In addition, PvX is basically operated by two private individuals, where guildwiki is operated by wikia and GWW by arenanet, which are both fairly large companies with more time and money.  &not; Wizårdbõÿ777  ( talk ) 22:56, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

re-making Category:GuildWiki
With the creation of Category:Categories it is now an even better idea for new users to use the category structure to acquaint themselves with the wiki and its general structure (although some category pages could use a bit more explanatory text). The one main category that is too cluttered for this purpose now is Category:GuildWiki; it combines useful information about guildwiki with maintenance pages. I have suggested dividing it up at Category talk:GuildWiki; please comment there if you're interested. --◄mendel► 06:33, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

converting STDT to CSS...
I'm currently trying to convert our template from old-style table attributes to CSS. I can easily reproduce the proper styling in Firefox, but IE is a pain in the butt. I've come up with what I think is a good compromise, but I'm wondering if someone else could do better.

Here's three tables, one using the attributes from STDT, one using class="stdt" (which I added to MediaWiki:common.css), and one using class="stdt2" so that anyone who feels like helping with this can tweak it using their own css page. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 01:01, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

New Parser
GuildWiki has upgraded its "engine", the wikicode parser. If you notice pages that don't look right, please report them on Forum:New parser. --◄mendel► 23:38, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

International InterWiki links
I've been working on the suggestion to add international wiki links to GuildWiki. I'm at the point that I've got something that works well on Firefox and somewhat ok on IE7; all that's left now is to write the templates, test them, and then have a bot add a lot of translated names and wikilinks to the wiki. Oh, and get community support, I need to do that, too. :-P Anyway, at this point there are some decisions to be made: Please read Languages for more information, and see GuildWiki talk:Languages for a demo of the two placement options. Please discuss there (not here). --◄mendel► 09:57, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) What languages and Wikis should be shown by default? Users can customize, but I believe we should show some languages and links to advertise the feature and make the common options available for anonymous readers.
 * 2) Where should the translations and links be placed? They could go on the article headline, or in a category-style box at the bottom, or maybe somebody has a better idea?


 * There's a poll there now; I'm afraid to continue working on this feature unless at least some people tell me (by clicking the poll) that they've noticed that a lot of Wiki pages will get changed when I do this. There's going to be drama if I do this and everybody is surprised. :-( --◄mendel► 08:15, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Bellybuttons
If I start an article in the user namespace documenting armor combinations that show the bellybutton (with an emphasis on Female Mesmer armor), would you (members of the GuildWiki community) find it offensive? Please sign below. -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 01:32, 15 November 2008 (UTC)


 * a Navel gallery? I would find it offensive that you thought it was necessary, and I would slightly doubt your sanity. But the page itself would be quite inoffensive, in my opinion. (if we're seriously voting on this, just scoot my comment under a header.) --[[image:GEO-logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  03:19, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I would be considerably pleased with such a gallery. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 03:39, 15 November 2008 (UTC)


 * In the light of the ongoing discussion, I would see it as a deliberate attempt to provoke, and I wouldn't like that. --◄mendel► 05:41, 15 November 2008 (UTC)