Talk:Wastrel's Demise

I'm pretty sure they got Demise and Worry mixed up in the text. WW is the one that deals damage if you don't cast, so Demise must be damage if you do. --Theeth (talk)   21:20, 20 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I think the difference is the part about the damage being proportional to the number of spells on the skill bar. --Karlos 22:26, 20 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I think they got the description of Wastrel's Demise right and just got confused about how Wastrel's Worry works. We'll find out soon enough. Either way, they need to lay off the eggnog. -- Gordon Ecker 01:50, 21 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I take it, WD is a one-time Backfire with additional damage for each spell on the skillbar. In any case it's pretty sad that they got the effect of WW wrong on the official website. ANYBODY who has played a Mesmer for some time must have noticed the error. Obviously ANet's webdesign team doesn't play Mesmer. ;) --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 09:35, 21 September 2006 (CDT)


 * It wouldn't be the first time they publish misleading info on their site *cough* damage explanations *cough* --Theeth (talk)   17:06, 21 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Well they made it a real waste to bother linking these two skills as 'complimentary' when they both have similar counters to them. It would seem that Overload and WW would make a better pair based on their explanation.(Terra Xin 09:11, 6 October 2006 (CDT))


 * I can't see the relation between this spell and WW. According to the description, there is no way for the attacked character to react to this, and the bonus damage will occur pretty much always. Also, this is a spell, WW is a hex, this damages the target instantly, while WW has a 3 second delay. -- Sai Qui 02:55, 14 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Because both WW and WD rely on the target NOT casting spells. Neither of them will be any effective if the target casts a spell.(Terra Xin 05:52, 24 October 2006 (CDT))

They've rewritten the description (along with a couple of the older blocks on that page). Wastrel's Demise seems like it is a version of Wastrel's Worry with more focus on spells. The new description isn't really any better, and I don't see why we should guess wildly at what it does when it's not plainly spelled out.24.53.130.233 22:21, 21 September 2006 (CDT)

This spell ended up rather boring, no? Seva 14:55, 26 September 2006 (CDT)
 * It's certainly better than some alternatives that come to mind... *cough* overload *coughcoughcough* --Ufelder 02:35, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

Significantly weaker in PvE due to monsters only having 4-5 skills on their bar. -Flypaper Well this looks pretty good, esp against monks who don't want to cast in fear of interruption.-Onlyashadow, Top 100 Guild 11:22, 27 October 2006 (CDT)

At level 16, it can deal 88 damage, in 1/4 of a second! Wow... Dr Titan 16:36, 30 December 2006 (CST)

This... no. I mean, it could work... with Arcane Echo... maybe... LavaEdge324 17:03, 4 January 2007 (CST)

Approx at Domination Magic level 18: Target foe takes 5...38 damage. If that foe is not casting a Spell, that foe takes an additional 3...8 damage for each equipped Spell.

Hmm, let's assume favorable circumstances - you have Domination 18 (bleh -.-) and your foe's skillbar is entirely composed of spells. In that case you'd get 38 + 8 X 7 damage, or 38 + 56 = 94 damage.

That is a lot of damage for just 5 energy, but honestly...if the foe has a full bar of just spells, it should be pretty hard to catch them not casting. Moreover, most players don't have just spells on the bar, even if it's only for Rez sig or such. Finally, I can't see anyone seriously using this in PvP (where it would be most useful) because it's utterly useless against Warriors, Assassins, Rangers, Paragons...and for the other classes it might or might not be useful. A Dervish doesn't necessarily carry any spells, for instance. And a Rit could be a Rit Lord with all Binding Rituals. Ele usually has Glyphs, Monks have skills like CoP and others, Mesmer has signets...etc etc. I'm gonna Tag this skill if no one objects. >< Entropy 14:31, 27 January 2007 (CST)
 * So... you've never played HA or GvG? --Fyren 16:05, 27 January 2007 (CST)
 * Explain? Entropy 16:08, 27 January 2007 (CST)
 * While mesmers aren't very common in HA since the 6-man change, just about any domination mesmer in GvG will have this and spiritual pain to throw into a spike. This has a 1/4s cast time.  --Fyren 16:13, 27 January 2007 (CST)
 * Backfire or diversion before casting demise. Or e-deny. &bull; Dekan 16:11, 27 January 2007 (CST)


 * Aah, I didn't even see that 1/4 cast time. Must be a bit "distracted"...sorry. In general PvE though, this is bad. Entropy 17:07, 27 January 2007 (CST)

Anet just totally killed this wonderful skill. Bye bye eurospike (again). :S 87.74.53.179 06:33, 8 March 2007 (CST)

Ever heard of Mesmer Fast Casting? they wanted the skills slightly less over used on mesmer secondaries, but still, 1 second isn't a long casting time. Ckal Ktak 16:35, 8 March 2007 (CST)
 * I'm guessing you're a PvE dude. Ever heard of Infuse Health?  In PvP, 1/4 sec --> 1 sec turns this from a hugely effective afterspike skill into... well, I'm not sure what, but it isn't good.  And I have never seen a mesmer secondary use this skill in GvG, HA, or even RA - so where's all this "over use" going on? 87.74.52.75 14:16, 11 March 2007 (CDT)

Ever seen any good mesmer skills left? The list keeps getting nerf and is getting shorter. --Icyangel Strawberry 12:12, 9 March 2007 (CST)

"PvE dude" ? So PvP dudes are better than PvE dudes, but stop complainting about a cast time, +3/4secs, it's ridiculousely short, and still usefull : but let's think like a PvP guy for a minute : " oh no they nerfed it hugely, let's not even test it, it's a shit and that's all" you are killing skills thaks to your closed mind, like you killed ether renewal... which is not dead at all. I think you are just Dumb

Reverted
I just looked at Wastrel's Demise after seeing someone use it, and it's been changed back to 1⁄4 cast! NOOOO --Gimmethegepgun 15:02, 6 April 2007 (CDT)


 * Ack, so it is. Lets hope it was just clumsiness on ANet's part.. &mdash; Skuld 15:05, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

Casting Time Re-reverted.
It is now 1 second again.

Needs buff
This skill is currently useless. The maximum damage is 88. The maximum damage of Overload is 95. Overload has shorter recast and shorter cast time and deals unconditional damage. Even if used against a non-caster, Overload will outperform WD because the shorter recharge. Overload got a nice buff, but that made WD obsolete. So buff WD in damage (and not cast time) A.Saturnus 14:09, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * /Agrees. Roxas XIII 11:32, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
 * This skill is one of those skills that was never useful in PvP or PvE. so i dont think it will ever get a buff, considering there are much more needed buffs to other skills that have simply been ignored into obliteration.--66.192.104.13 18:08, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Before it was nerfed, this was used on Mesmers for small spike, but it is too slow now. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 18:16, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It's a cover hex I guess. --[[Image:Takisig2.png]] 22:52, October 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it's used for covering more important things. 1/4 activation time + fast cast and minor degen is pretty hawt. [-Lifestyle-] 23:01, October 15, 2009 (UTC)

Pretty Lame
After the change, it's a little more interesting, but still pretty lame. The total damage output just doesn't match the recharge. So I was thinking, why not make it an energy version of Wastrel's Worry? It could be like "Target foe is hexed, blah blah, in the next 3 seconds, that foe loses 1...3 energy". 4 sec recharge, so people wouldn't just spam it like crazy.--Darksyde  18:06, November 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * That actually would probably be better than the current function of "WW." --174.101.255.217 08:53, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

Update
Now it's like a little pocket portable version of Savannah Heat for Mesmers. Kaze 01:53, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

Note removal?
I don't under the reason for removing the notes in [ this edit]. I'd like to see at least the second note returned, but thought I might have missed some other reason for its removal. Thanks. &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 15:28, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Targeting foes during aftercast is still somewhat useful (but perhaps not enough to keep the note).
 * Targeting foes that don't use skills is still a great idea: the damage is dependent on the hex lasting on the target foe and they are unable to remove it themselves. At best, any melee foes that forget out of the way (i.e. all in PvE) take increasing damage; at worst, the enemy healer has to waste a hex removal on a pet.


 * Imo, onky the second should be put back in, since it still benefits from foes not using skills. The new WDemise barely benefits from being cast during aftercast. --Vipermagi 15:40, August 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * Agree w/Viper. 5-second duration is too long for the exact moment of casting (i.e. during target's aftercast) to matter very much, especially since the first damage packet doesn't hit immediately, it hits at the 1-second mark, and the total aftercast is only 0.75 seconds.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 15:49, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

Blackout?
Could one combine this with Blackout's 5 second disable period to ensure that it lasts its full duration? &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 174.89.36.250 (contribs).


 * Possible, but keep in mind that you'll have your own aftercast to deal with when you finish casting WD, and then Blackout has a 1-second casting time (could be reduced a bit by Fast Casting, of course), so there would be nearly 2 seconds for your foe to use a skill in between. &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 21:08, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * False about the Blackout casting time; it's a touch skill, not a spell, so it gains no benefit from the Fast Casting attribute. Guaranteed 1.75 seconds' worth of time between WD and Blackout, and that's assuming you're miraculously still standing right next to him after WD's aftercast. Only way to really coordinate it with Blackout is to use two mesmers for an awkward spike (albeit an impractical one, in the more-trouble-than-it's-worth sense of the word).  Could double up with Worry, though, for lots of armor-ignoring damage.  Ethigenetic 00:59, August 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * WD deals too little damage to be worth all that trouble (150@15). --Vipermagi 11:50, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

Reapplying this hex
After the fifth second, it restarts the cycle. For example, at 6 Domination, if you kept reapplying this hex and the foe never used a skill to end it, you would see 5 10 15 20 25 5 10 15 20 25 5 10... But think there is any way to reword the current note? It didn't make sense until I actually went in-game to test it. -- WhiteAsIce 20:58, September 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * How's that? &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 21:09, September 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Looks better, but what does it mean by initial damage? AFAIK, there is no initial damage, unless I'm missing something not explicitly mentioned. --[[Image:Jimp.jpg|19px]] WhiteAsIce 22:33, September 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually, I think both this wiki and the other have gotten the mechanics wrong. I believe what I'm seeing is that you can apply the hex multiple times to the same foe.
 * At 0s, Apply WD #1. Damage at 1s (1x), 2s (2x), and 3s (3x)
 * At <3s, Apply WD #2. At 4s, receive damage from two hexes (4x, 1x).
 * At 5s, receive last of #1's dmg (5x, 2x)
 * At 6s, receive third of #2s and cast WD #3. (0x, 3x, 0x)
 * etc


 * This is the same damage I would see if I were applying the hex as often as possible to e.g. two side-by-side pets, except that I see it if applying to the same foe. Are you guys seeing anything different? (I should probably test this on Nameless, removing a dom +1 rune before casting the 2nd hex.)


 * If I'm correct, what about this as a potential note:
 * Wastrel's Damage can be re-applied multiple times to the same foe, with each hex initiating it's own damage sequence. Both hexes will be removed without any further damage if the opponent successfully uses a skill, but the second will otherwise act as a cover hex for the first (for the last few bursts).


 * Possibly, with two mesmers, you could get even more WDs on the same foe, but I think at reasonable FC ranks, you would be hard pressed to get even 3 on a target (accounting for aftercast delay). &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 23:22, September 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) Ah, I was going off of what the previous version said, without really reading the description. You're right, there is no initial damage.  I also did some of my own testing, and noticed that the multiplier doesn't reset upon reaching 5x, but actually it resets whenever the original duration would have expired.  With 0 Dom and recasting immediately on recharge, I would see 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 1 2 1 2 3 1 2... (the staggering of 123 and 12 is due to the .25s casting time and lag adding up; if my activation were perfect, it should always be 1 2 1 2 after the initial 5).  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 23:25, September 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Huh, I didn't even look at GWW, but that's exactly what I saw. Oh yeah, and I tried it with myself and Gwen, both with 0 Dom, and although it was harder to tell (since I couldn't see Gwen's damage numbers), I never saw anything greater than 5, which indicates that it is not a case of multiple instances of the same hex.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 23:43, September 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Erm, I mebbe explained poorly. I thought I was seeing two distinct damage numbers. However, I went to test on Nameless Isle and realized that I must have been seeing hexes on two targets before. When I tested properly, I'm seeing what you are seeing. Sorry for the confusion.


 * So, I like our note, but also want it to convey the efficiency issue: if you cast an overlapping 2x, you lose damage compared to casting 2x in succession, e.g. patient casters get 12345-12345... vs impatient 12345-12-123. (I don't have a good rephrase for that.) &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 01:05, September 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * Admittedly, I was a bit confused by your previous post, thus my response was also a bit off the mark. Anyway, I added that to the note.  Should we mark it an anomaly like GWW has it?  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 02:30, September 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * Be surprising if you weren't confused by the previous post ;-)


 * The spell's behavior is not exactly anomalous &mdash; Wastrel's Worry (which damages only upon end), Illusion of Pain, and other hexes are extended upon early re-application &mdash; and the impacts are different. If we do tag it as a note, let's move the current anomaly into Trivia, to better emphasize the affect on gameplay (vs on gfx). &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 02:57, September 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thus, this hex will never do damage more than 5x the listed number, and the cycle restarts when the previously casted WD would've ended. The hex never actually stacks with itself though. This skill truly does behave strangely. I wonder how stacking works when you have two casters with different levels of Dom Magic... --[[Image:Jimp.jpg|19px]] WhiteAsIce 03:08, September 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * Although there's no other hex that has a DoT multiplier, I compared the player-vs-hero situation against Illusion of Pain with 0 Illusion, and I saw the same thing. For the full duration of my initial cast, I saw 8 yellow numbers.  Gwen over-cast on mine between "beats" 6 and 7, and the beat of the timer remained consistent after mine ran out (it didn't gain/lose a time offset due to Gwen's cast not being exactly on the beat).  I over-cast on hers, I did not see a yellow number until Gwen's 8 pulses ran out, and the beat still remained consistent with my initial cast.  That mirrors what I saw with WD, so based on this (somewhat limited) evidence, I would call this a general anomaly of DoT hexes, not of any specific one.
 * Then, I set Gwen's Illusion to 12 to test different attribute levels. I cast first again, and as soon as Gwen cast, I lost the yellow numbers, meaning that her more powerful version was overriding mine.  I tried this with WD (me: 0 Dom, Gwen: 12), and I saw the same thing.  Now that I've done this, I seem to remember seeing a discussion somewhere before about a higher attribute level of the same spell canceling out the less powerful one.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 03:53, September 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, that is true generally, e.g. if you cast an enchant with Master of Magic and then without. If comparing WD to WW and PoI, it doesn't seem anomalous. It's just a rare skill that increases its DoT amounts, so there's not really any other skills to compare it to. &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 06:16, September 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * How about Rising Bile? Its damage also increases with time, but it deals all of its damage at the end rather than over the course of its duration. --[[Image:Jimp.jpg|19px]] WhiteAsIce 00:57, September 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * It also follows this limited pattern: re-applying the hex before it expires doesn't help the caster's goals.
 * Wastrel's Worry: reapplication extends the hex, reducing the chance that it will expire and cause damage
 * Wastrel's Demise: reapplication extends the hex, restarting the counter (and therefore eliminating the two of the potential 4x and 5x damage spikes).
 * Putrid Bile: reapplication causes ... nothing, as far as I can tell.
 * Illusion of Pain: this is the hex anomaly, as reapplication extends the length of the hex, postponing the effect-on-end heal.
 * I think it's hard to say what should be expected vs. what is anomalous as far as reapplying a hex that is conditional on time. Hexes without dependencies can be expected to follow the same rule as enchants (reapplication extends the effect or changes the values, depending on the attributes of the caster upon recast).


 * Since this part of the convo started as, "isn't this anomalous," I think it's more correct to say that WD is generally anomalous &mdash; I don't think it's worth highlighting the reapplication note. However, I think White as Ice has suggested another interesting avenue to pursue: how do hexes with dependencies behave when reapplied under different circumstances? I don't know that we've done enough testing to see what happens under controlled circumstances. &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 02:21, September 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * They're all identical: reapplication extends the hex, delaying any end effect.
 * Wastrel's Worry: this is not desirable, as the end effect causes damage.
 * Wastrel's Demise: this is not desirable, as the extended duration plays havoc with the damage multiplier.
 * Putrid Bile: as you said, doesn't make much difference.
 * Illusion of Pain: this is desirable, as the end effect heals your foe.
 * Mechanically, there's no difference, and no real anomaly that I can see. This is just how reapplied hexes work.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 04:15, September 3, 2010 (UTC)