User:Entropy/Paragon Proposal

=Paragon Proposal= Okay, so Paragons are imba because...


 * Sword-level DPS at range
 * Unlimited E-management
 * Function fine without an elite
 * "Save Yourselves!" and "There's Nothing to Fear!"
 * Offense and defense in the same package
 * 80AL
 * Centurion Insignia
 * Spears are better ranged weapons than bows

So I have an idea to fix Paragons, and it is very, very simple.

Make them melee range:



...In the whole history of human warfare, there has never been soldiers who fought only by throwing spears. Sure, hunters would use it. But did they carry bundles and bundles of spears and just throw them as their only means of offense? Heck no! They had melee weapons, spears or swords. Even in "300", you know. Guild Wars isn't supposed to be realistic by any means, but...this is just ridiculous to be honest. Make Paragons melee range, and it solves the above problems:


 * Sword-level DPS at melee range, but is piercing damage which is inferior to slashing damage.
 * More limited E-management because adrenaline buildup is like Warriors - you need to reach the target and chase them.
 * Spear elites become much worse as a melee range character, as do the 2-second elites (Cautery Signet for example).
 * SY will suddenly make all the PvE foes rush you, and you're on the frontlines now. Trouble brewing.
 * Energy for TNtF will be harder to fuel with slower adrenal buildup, since it will be more difficult to spam "free" shouts like "Watch Yourself!" and "Go for the Eyes!".
 * Still have offense, but less since it's not ranged; still have defense, but less since it's not ranged.
 * 80AL at melee range is what Warriors have against non-physical damage. It is still second highest but now will feel more fragile as it's on the frontlines.
 * Centurion Insignia harder to keep up with Adrenal shouts only.
 * Spears are a melee weapon so Bows once again are the best ranged weapons. Except for wands in some specialist circumstances.

Are you with me?
YES. Please fix Paragons. This would work.


 * 1) RT  | Talk  21:46, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * 2) YUP.
 * 3) Kill the Imbagons! Anyway, whats the point of having tank armor if you hide behind the squishies?[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]]Entrea Sumatae  [Talk]  01:32, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
 * 4) Kemal 12:00, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * 5) Only terribaed players think paragons aren't hideously overpowered, especially in PvE Blue.rellik 04:38, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * 6) Nephenee 4 life. Griffin69.133.105.149 20:44, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * 7) I agree 100% with Entrea. Shark Ranger Guy 23:11, 29 February 2008 (UTC)Shark Ranger Guy
 * How about coming up with your own argument.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] Lann 20:00, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) What entrea said --[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 03:36, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
 * How about coming up with your own argument.--[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] Lann 20:00, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Why do I have to? Entrea said what I would've said--[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 20:20, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
 * No, Entrea stated his opinion. You stated his opinion. --[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] Lann 14:23, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I have another idea. Paragons need fixing but there is a better way (describe on talkpage).


 * 1) Zulu Inuoe 21:56, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * 2) I've shown my disgust at this.--Alari 21:57, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * 3) The idea is nice, but if it goes into effect, I'm sure that A-Net will revamp almost all the para skills. I truly believe we do not need another melee profession (sense this idea will technically make paragons a warrior profession). I believe there is a better way to fix paragons, and it is nice to have more than 1 phys-range based profession. If we go to the source of the problem, you will see that it is Paragon's primary attribute Leadership is the cause of imba, which gives paragons the infinite energy to pump out shouts/chants, renew echos, and cover energy-based spikeing spear attacks (as most paragons only bring 1 or 2 adrenaline skills, mainly for e-management). So, in my opinion, I just believe they need to change Leadership (giving an adrenaline class e-management was a bad idea in the first place). --[[Image:Lann-sf2.jpg|19px]] Lann 00:02, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

NO. Only the elitists and PvP junkies say Paragons are imbalanced. They need a buff, not a nerf!
 * 1) NO they are just as other classes, keep them away from this mess! --:-) GlennThePaladin (Talk,Contrib) 13:09, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * 2) Paragons are fine as they are, fail less at being a Paragon plx k thx bai -- InfestedHydralisk  [[Image:InfestedHydralisk-icon.jpg]] 16:45, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * If I "failed" at being a Paragon I wouldn't be requesting them to be nerfed. Think first, then post please. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 11:29, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) The people who think they are too powerful usually arn't too good at playing a paragon and strive too be those that are amazing, the ones that are amazing look down upon every other profession. You could say the same with every profession, paragons can't solo farm (nerf eles, sins, warriors, necros, monks and derv's then!), "Paragons have an insane dps!" coming from someone who has a paragon, yes we do, in PvE. We must make up for damage in skills that help our allies (msot forms of pvp) thus making very low in the dps chain, or we can g o pure dps and go with command, still an A/D prob does the most amount of damage then anything in the game ihmo. And dervish still do insane damage, para spike died after too many nerfs so people wne tback to eles and paragons stay balanced PvE, if you think PvE is too easy with a paragon and don't like easy stuff thats why we ahve hard mode and elite mission and just don't bring a freakin paragon if you think a strong PvE profession ruins the fun. No one is making you bring a paeagon, and besides the "over-powered "Save Yourselves!" and "There's Nothing to Fear!" have their limited functionalties in which you have to use them in the heat of the batte since their kinda worthless in the beginning, and, being a survivor and a paragon, they don't help as much as most people think, they lower damage by an amount most people consider good but they are not over-powered life savers like most people refer them as. And being ranged we gain MAJOR disadvantages, sure we don't have too run up really close BUT, we are still pretty close, close enough for a sin spike to take down a *dumb* paragon or one without any forms of healing, we have the natural mechanics of miss and stray, these greatly lower your dps against an actual smart target that knows how to dodge you...So you go all spear and try to take skills thathelp allies, well newsflash just like any other profession, althoug I do admit paragon is slightly better at it, we can not fufill every single role that everyone says we do. Yes we can majionally provide some but it does not cause such a great imbalance it makes all other profession inferior. Also, another reason why a choosen few paragon skills are consatntly sued, becuase all the other ones suck! Ever think of that? That's why you see the same handful of skills, because the other ones suck, very badly, even if you try your best to put them to use you'll just have to compesnate one of your roles. Personaklly if anything i say out of all the professions dervish are still unbalanced, they can stay alive forever with the right build, like all the other professions not just the magical paragon, and do insane damage. Sure they don';t have the party support of a paragon but in RA your party prob stinks and in the other forms of PvP its more about the team as a whole in which case you wouldn't make them sucky, and they don't limit your talents becuase you joined that team. It all comes down to knowing which paragon skills are good and the only good ones but becuase of the inferiorness of the other skill they seem unbalanced, adn who can actually play a pragon and tkae on a specific role very succesfully, or multiple roles moderatly, which both are viable options. Think about it, monk can do the same, using your arguement I say monks are unbalanced becuase they can smite, prot, and heal. Well they have to choose what they want to do a combination isn't very succesful and in fact looked down upon. But becuase of the functionality of the paragon and the way it was designed to UTILIZE all of its attributes, smart people take full advantage of that fact. Paragons are perfectly balanced and unless I see someone with a full paragon team get a 10 win streakin HA i fail to see other wise. Lost-Blue 04:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * God freaking damn it, that was a eye sore. Paragraphs 4 lief!!!! Blue.rellik 04:38, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * yeah sorry i was typing in a hurry and I'm in trouble :( lol. Lost-Blue 04:40, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thats what you do when your in a hurry? I don't want to read your opinions when you actually have time...--Alari 04:55, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Alari, please watch your comments; they are borderline NPA. Also, I <3 my paragon, plz don't nerf him Izzy :/ &mdash; Nova  [[Image:Neo-NovaSmall.jpg]] &mdash;  (contribs) 15:35, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You don't have a sense of humor? Why exactly would I personally attack someone I mostly agree with? --[[Image:AlariSig.jpg]] 17:06, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think the above one was a possible NPA (it was obviously a joke), but some of the ones on the talk page and elsewhere that you've posted recently are. --Shadowcrest 17:08, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * If you have a problem with me then please post something on my page, don't spam this.--[[Image:AlariSig.jpg]] 17:09, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You said Monks are therefore imba because they can smite, prot, and heal at the same time. Think about that. Smiting? Have you ever played a smite monk? >.> [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 11:29, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I have been. Only when you use Smite Condition/hex and RoD (Why isn't RoD a redir to Reversal o. Damage?), coupled with Smiter's Boon ,you aren't worthless. The only exceptions to that rule are: Desolation (lolol, SoJ spike) and Realm of Torment (if you have Lb 8, the damage surpasses most nukers). But generally, Smite sucks. So meh --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]]-- (s)talkpage 15:02, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * What does this solve though? All it does is make another melee class when we effectively have five...and this still doesn't solve the primary imbalance with paragons - unstrippable passive defense. Why not hit paragons directly at the source? Remove chants entirely from the game and make them enchantments instead. Furthermore, all powerful paragon shouts should similarly be converted to enchantments - that way a player has to decide between a nigh uncounterable but ultimately weak skill (shouts) and an easily countered but significantly more counterable skill (chant -> enchantment). In fact, to retain the lore aspect of the game, paragons can still have chants and shouts but have the party-wide effect of a chant apply an enchantment instead of a chant. Then, Izzy should go through and give the enchantments very short durations with similarly scaled short recharge times. Uncounterable passive defense gone.  GG. Problem solved. 72.183.115.246 02:01, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps it would be easier to allow enchantment removal to remove chants as well, similar to the Power line function buffs? [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 02:15, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I just wasted about half my life reading all of this stuff, and have a really horrible head-ache now. All of this just to figure out that the only reason I read this was to see another picture like the one at the top XD (Kudos to the artist, btw.). I agree that a paragon with melee range would make things more balanced, (almost TOO balanced) but I suppose just a few skill nerfs would have the same effect. And I do agree with other things said about just nerfing Leadership. All in all, do your business or get off the pot, ANet...don't make a class you full-well know is going to get nerfed worse then Jesus got nailed to the cross, when you could have just made them balanced to begin with and avoided the whole rebuttal from Guild Wars players-- which is most likely the reason they haven't done all of the things Entropy mentioned. Lethal Shogun 22:04, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Other None of the above.
 * 1) Paragons are just exemplifying the problems of the current Melee/Blockway meta, and any fix to paragons alone would miss the point. The fix to blockway will necessarily redefine paragon balance. 134.130.4.46 23:09, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Btw, magic doesn't exist in real life, so it should be taken out of the game plzkthx. Also, "Save Yourselves!" is a Warrior skill which anyone with a bit of rank can use... It's PvE-only too, and I haven't heard Shiro or the Margonites requesting a nerf. l2think, enotrpy. The larry 14:37, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * l2read talkpage rants, loser. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 14:50, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * L2spel larry, you could also try playing Guild Wars sometime. >.> [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 00:44, 11 March 2008 (UTC)