GuildWiki talk:Policy

Section 0
I love the new initiatives on the policy front, Tanaric. And I pretty much agree with all your changes. However, I am slightly concerned that later policy changes may become too arduous if people were to read the bold-face conditions as requiring unanimosity among all editors to enable even the smallest change. In fact, I believe a consensus is, and can be, reached and defined by an overwhelming majority despite objections. I'm splitting hairs, I know, but on issues such as this, a little hair-splitting is probably not a bad idea. -- Bishop [ rap|con ] 18:17, 5 August 2006 (CDT)


 * The process is designed to be difficult&mdash;adding or changing policies generally requires a significant amount of work for the editors who make sure everything is in compliance. Our policies should be flexible, but they should not be swinging back and forth every month or so.


 * That said, here's how I interpret consensus. If everyone who meaningfully contributes to a discussion agrees on a change, that's consensus. Note that I said "meaningfully." If somebody chimes in once, says "no dont change plz thx," and doesn't offer any good reasons why the policy shouldn't change or suggestions to make the change more reasonable, I don't consider his dissent as taking away from consensus.


 * If even one reasonable complaint about a policy change exists, I think it's reasonable to avoid the change. However, I see this as a somewhat recursive process&mdash;you can apply this interpretation of "consensus" to the potential negative as well. If everyone (but possibly the person who raises the complaint) believes that the change is beneficial regardless of the negatives noted in the complaint, consensus is there to go ahead with the change despite the complaint.


 * I believe my interpretation of consensus encompasses what you want to see changed about my proposal. If this is so, I should write up an article about what consensus means and how it's interpreted here at the GuildWiki, and include a better-written version of those last two paragraphs. :)


 * &mdash;Tanaric 18:43, 5 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Yes, I think your definition of consensus is close enough to mine as to be indistinguishable. I merely thought I would mention that a strict interpretation of "no vote can ever be considered binding nor, unless unanimous, indication of consensus." indicates that consensus must be entirely unanimous. I welcome your idea of defining it in a seperate article. -- [[Image:Bishop_icon2.png]] Bishop [ rap|con ] 18:58, 5 August 2006 (CDT)


 * My point with that was that votes should not be the primary means of establishing consensus&mdash;discussion should be. We've recently begun a vote-using trend that I think is harmful to the wiki, so I wanted to establish their lack of credibility right from the start. :) &mdash;Tanaric 19:02, 5 August 2006 (CDT)


 * You and I are obviously on the same page. I'm not going to comment further untill others have chimed in, because this will simply degenerate into a whole lot of patting each other on the back (erh, more than it already has, I mean). -- [[Image:Bishop_icon2.png]] Bishop [ rap|con ] 19:16, 5 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I have to say I agree entirely Tanaric and Bishop. It is often the case that votes are either "for or against" and do not encourage a situation where compromise can be made. I have recently despaired over the way in which decisions for style and formatting have been made, and even the way in which many policy disputes have recently been handled.


 * Good work Tanaric!  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 06:19, 6 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Now that I've found this discussion...I think the idea that we have a vote culture here is overplayed. In all honesty I think the major contributors here are all aware of trying to avoid a vote culture (and have been for some months), consequently I don't think we have many votes. I don't see voting as a major problem, we've had it for some time now but we don't seem to be engaging in it more frequently, in fact I'd say we actually vote less and less now and pretty much use it at the right time, when the discussion has carried on for too long, arguments are going round in circles and people are getting frustrated and all relevent arguments have been raised. --Xasxas256 07:21, 6 August 2006 (CDT)


 * That's a fair interpretation&mdash;I'm still in the "one vote is too many" camp, but that's probably because I was here back in the formative stages of the wiki, and we never used votes then. I'm willing to (grudgingly) accept them as a measure of gauging current opinion. The policy is show that votes can only be used in this manner.


 * Even if the notion of a burgeoning vote culture is overplayed, it's important to codify things in such a way that no vote culture can arise. If you can word my vote/consensus prohibition that better portrays the intent of the community, by all means, please do so. :) &mdash;Tanaric 07:52, 6 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I would bring up Tetris' vote on bound spirits and that new unknown user's vote on sockpuppetry as good examples of recent premature votes that did not try to achieve a collective understanding of the issue. Basically, I think it should be noted somewhere that "votes" cannot be used to bring about an end to a discussion. Votes should be used when the community is trying to choose whether to go with BeastBox1, 2 or 7, but not when one side in a debate feels he has seemingly more support and so he says, well, let's just vote on it! --Karlos 11:15, 6 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I think Xasxas256 expressed the reasoning behind the bound spirit vote. "pretty much use it at the right time, when the discussion has carried on for too long, arguments are going round in circles and people are getting frustrated and all relevent arguments have been raised." The discussion would have never came to a compromise. But there were faults with the vote. It was in bas taste that you, Karlos, were not made aware and that the vote only lasted a week. Other than that, it just didn't seem like too many users cared about the discussion about bound spirits.


 * I would also much rather have discussions to finalize situations and not turn to voting. But when two or three users are set in their way of thinking and will not budge, then that leaves a precarious situation. It dissuades other users from participating in the discussion, and if the discussion is heated enough, those that do are dismissed it seems. Those kind of discussions should be brought to an end then and there. Not only is compromise near impossible, but it looks bad for the wiki, especially when it's prominent users of the community going at it. *looks innocent* Just recalling what I've seen in the past. One question that either no one has thought of, or everyone knows about it, but me. What would happen if a discussion went around in circles for weeks, no compromise is made, no real concensus has been shown, and we are trying to lessen the number of votes? -Gares 13:55, 6 August 2006 (CDT)


 * If discussion cannot reach a consensus, there must be a reason. Two or three users won't be stubborn about something unless there's a good reason to be stubborn. If the change isn't clearly, unequivically good, we shouldn't be making the change. That's the reasoning behind the vote policy as written.


 * When we need a beast box, it doesn't matter if one wins by a one-vote margin, because they're all essentially the same&mdash;it's a question of style and preference. We need a beast box, and there's no point in delaying it further when the discussion is down to whether light red or dark red looks better. When it comes to policy, there's no need to finalize something. If a change never gets consensus/approved, that's totally okay. If a proposed new policy never gets the backing of the community, that's okay too. We don't need half-supported, controversial policies on the wiki. We need well-written guidelines of the mores that already exist. &mdash;Tanaric 14:24, 6 August 2006 (CDT)


 * In the case of articles at large I can understand that voting is sometimes a reasonable way of resolving a debate, but I think that it's important that GuildWiki policy only gets changed/implemented/removed when done so with fully reasoned argument and not simply a tick box.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 15:22, 6 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I noticed a reference to "the vote policy as written". To the best oif my knowledge, there is no formal policy on voting, and I honestly do not believe we should have a formal policy on it (to me, a policy implies condoning the migration to a vote culture - others may interpret this differently).  However, we do have voting guidelines at Category:Votes.  Those guidelines should be better clarified to indicate when a vote should and should not be used (among other shortcomings of the guidelines as currently written). --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 21:47, 6 August 2006 (CDT)

Open proxies policy
This was brought up in the aftermath of the "Stabber" flareup but was subsequently not followed through. I think GuildWiki should seriously consider no open proxies policy like WP:NOP to prevent all future cases of abuse. We already know that at least some of the characters involved in the "Stabber" incident used Tor proxies. Here is a dynamically maintained list of known Tor proxies. I think GuildWiki should follow Wikipedia's lead and indefinitely block all these and other open proxies. 64.78.164.226 23:43, 6 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Why are you posting through an anonymizer yourself? Just curious. --Karlos 00:45, 7 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I have my reasons. Mostly privacy. I know the irony of posting the above comment through a non-descript IP, and if it gets blocked as a result of my comment, I wouldn't mind. 64.78.164.226 01:14, 7 August 2006 (CDT)


 * You do realize, of course, that the obvious assumption around here would be that you are, in fact, Stabber? Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you are, and I happen to like Stabber (but not what s/he caused). But your showing up with obvious before-hand knowledge of GuildWiki matters, high technical flair, eloquence and, above all, confrontational policy opinions from day one, is quite similar to a modus operandi we have seen before...


 * Regardless, you are of course welcome and entitled to your opinions. Just as I would say to Stabber if s/he was to return. -- [[Image:Bishop_icon2.png]] Bishop [ rap|con ] 01:38, 7 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Yes, that is an obvious implication. I am clearly quite well versed with areas of the wiki that a newbie would be unaware of. Anyone is free to believe what they wish. I neither confirm nor deny that I am Stabber. 64.78.164.226 01:41, 7 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I find that mighty saddening. Possibly because the obvious implication of that is that you are intent more upon causing trouble -- or simply disruption and drama -- and less upon contributing to the community in a meaningful fashion. I really wish that was not the case, because if you are Stabber, I had hoped you would return in earnest (possibly under a new handle) and contribute more to the content and less to the drama, because that was an obvious skill of his/hers. And if you are not Stabber, then you are a different long-time editor with a different axe to grind, which is more confusing but no less underhanded -- and that hurts, either way, because our community is one based upon trust and collaboration. -- [[Image:Bishop_icon2.png]] Bishop [ rap|con ] 01:58, 7 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I think to some extent you have to choose to see this thread as a disruption for it to be one. You say that I'm suggesting confrontational policies, but equally my suggestions would prevent all future disruptions of this form, not to mention many other forms of disruption. I am sure you realize the futility of trying to guess my motives, and the insanity that induces. You have stated your case that blocking open proxies is not a battle worth fighting and the community might well agree with you. Indeed, several comments below seem to indicate that protecting key articles is the better remedy. In the interests of not writing more on a topic than it warrants, I'll make this my final comment on this thread of discussion. 64.78.164.226 02:31, 7 August 2006 (CDT)


 * You are right in that I am unable to discern your motives. I was when you were Stabber and I still am. In fact, I do not even try. Your objectives, however, are more easily recognizable. And so is your very unique argumentative style, given a decent sample size. You and I both realize, I am sure, that neither your IP-blocking suggestion nor your article-protection one offers any real protection against abuse. Your claims of protection against unspoken threats are FUD at best, and insidious attacks on the principles of trust and openness at worst. Just as your insistence that anonymity is the enemy of accountability, all the while using that anonymity to underline your point, is a misdirection at most.


 * The facts of the matter are that accountability and trust can exist even in a completely open environment, and even when the assumption of good faith exists. Your suggestions, howeever, and your attempts to avoid my objections through straw-man arguments, are neither in good faith nor accountable. And in honesty, they offer false security against attacks on those foundations, the values that we hold dear. -- [[Image:Bishop_icon2.png]] Bishop [ rap|con ] 03:30, 7 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Because of size and exposure differences, Wikipedia faces different issues than we do. Blocking, or rather attempting to block, proxy IP addresses are an uphill battle that we cannot win or even begin to fight. Your own origination IP is an excellent example; there is absolutely no way for us, as a community, to tell if you are genuinely using an almost impossibly non-descript access point, using an open proxy, or exploiting a compromised machine.


 * The only advantage we could gain from blocking known TOR-nodes, for instance, would be to raise the bar slightly for those who wish anonymity. However, that is more likely to prove a negative (by preventing genuinely privacy-concerned people from editing the wiki) than a positive, because determined, disruptive users with a real intent to cause harm could do so anyway.


 * The only way we could really prevent these issues would be to change policy to favor registered, long-term users over anons or newly registered ones. And that goes against what we stand for and how we do things (and Karlos regularly takes heat for having this view), so that is not an option. Instead, I think we're better off doing what we have been all along, which is to handle each issue as it crops up. -- [[Image:Bishop_icon2.png]] Bishop [ rap|con ] 00:54, 7 August 2006 (CDT)


 * All valid points, but I think blocking Tor nodes is exceedingly low hanging fruit and not particularly disruptive. Blocking open proxies should be just one facet of damage mitigation. I've noted at least one other tool below, ie, page protection. GuildWiki is now one of the largest wikis there is, and it's showing no signs of slowing down. These issues should be considered now while there is still a conceivable chance of sampling community-wide consensus, instead of punting until the problem is too big to handle. 64.78.164.226 01:14, 7 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Unfortunately, what you are suggesting is a slippery slope. In fact, one could make an argument that since you are obviously skilled in the arts of online obfuscation, you are well aware that your suggestions would serve more to cause dissent and confusion among newbie editors than it would protect against actual trouble-makers. Introducing measures of elitism to the wiki is not what we need, regardless of how tempting it might seem, even to me, at present. -- [[Image:Bishop_icon2.png]] Bishop [ rap|con ] 01:38, 7 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Regardless who Mr(s) Anonymous is, I don't feel comfortable with somebody deliberately hiding behind an anonymous IP making edits to official policy pages. Frankly I think those pages should be protected from anonymous edits, or maybe even admin edit only. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 01:44, 7 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Disregarding the issue of anon's identity, as it's irrelevant, I agree completely with Bishop's last two posts up there. It is not our place to decide how people should access the internet. We have never had a problem immediately spotting vandalism, if it should occur.


 * Tetris L, the fact that nobody has ever done what you're talking about seems like sufficient reason not to care about it. :) &mdash;Tanaric 09:28, 7 August 2006 (CDT)

Page protection
While I'm at it, there are a lot of pages that should be (semi-)protected but aren't. These are pages that new, unregistered, or non-admin users have no business editing. Protecting them is harmless as only admins edit them anyhow, and it would prevent pointless drama such as in Template talk:Cleanup. 64.78.164.226 00:07, 7 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Project:Policy (the parent of this talk page) should be semi-protected at least, and possibly fully protected.
 * Settled policies such as GW:ULC, GW:YAV, GW:CONTENT, etc. should be fully protected.
 * Official listing pages such as Project:Administrators, Project:Fansite status and so on.
 * All official templates should be semi-protected at least and preferably fully protected. The following is an incomplete list of such templates.
 * , and
 * and
 * All templates in the series
 * and
 * and
 * All templates in the series
 * and
 * All templates in the series
 * and
 * and
 * I agree with you, but if you look at Template talk:ban you'll see what happened when I protected that. --Rainith 00:24, 7 August 2006 (CDT)
 * That objection was raised by User:Stabber who is now absent/exiled. We can restart the debate and see if there has been a shift in consensus. 64.78.164.226 00:28, 7 August 2006 (CDT)


 * The identity and status of the individual who originally raised the objection should be absolutely irrevalent. I would prefer if you discuss on the specific merits of the objections themselves, especially since more than one person provided comments on the same side of the issue. - 01:26, 7 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I have already provided the reasons above, but if you need further clarification, these are high risk pages and templates. New, unregistered and non-sysops should not be editing them. Even assuming good faith, there is an exceedingly high chance that such users will be making mistakes. Further note that editability of not a single one of these pages is necessary for the goal of GuildWiki: that of writing a reference for the game. 64.78.164.226 01:36, 7 August 2006 (CDT)
 * i tend to agree with ip-boy, these pages are a) not part of the regular content b) stable and functional c) potentially disasterous if they are vandalized. they should be protected for admin edit (is that the proper term?). i do however completly agree with PanSola on the bit about personal vs issue discussion, the validity of the argument is not subject to the source. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 01:46, 7 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I disgaree, categorically. How did all those templates get formed? By uber users who created them one time and everyone started using them? No. Each was made by one user, edited by another and another until they got to be popular and really useful. I do not see the reason for protecting them. (Are we certain none of them will ever need any modification ever again, if not, why place a barrier on that?) And I don't see the harm in leaving them unprotected. (When is the next time someone will edit template:ban and not have their edit reviewed by 5000 people?) So, what if a malicious guy sabotaged template:delete and Skuld caught it 20 seconds later and RVed him? What's the big deal? --Karlos 02:40, 7 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Why even give malicious users that chance? Besides, it's not all about malice. Protecting a template such as is also damage mitigation. Every edit to it causes nearly every skill, build, collector, quest and god knows what else to be recomputed. Imagine if a new user in good faith makes five edits to it. That's a large amount of unnecessary load. There is no conceivable change to this template that will not be done by User:PanSola or User:Skuld. In fact, the only templates in that list above that were contributed and edited significantly by non-admins are,  and /, and these are the least risky ones for which full protection might not be strictly necessary. And you haven't even commented on the policy pages. How much community authorship is involved in any of them? Weren't they all essentially written single-handedly by User:Tanaric? Do you think an anonymous user such as 64.78.164.226 should be allowed to edit GW:AGF? 64.78.164.226 02:56, 7 August 2006 (CDT)


 * On your last question, I do think an anonymous user such as 64.78.164.226 should be allowed to edit GW:AGF. It would be way too ironic to protect that particular article d-:  Regarding the other points, I'll sit out here and see more deliberation before jumping in myself. - 03:05, 7 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Some of these could be protected by anonymous users and probably even user registered within a few days. However I don't see the need to protect most of these from anyone who isn't an admin. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 07:02, 7 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Protection is unwiki and unnecessary. We admins are trying as hard as we can to remain mostly editors at heart. We have been trying since the beginning to avoid an admin/user dichotomy like typical fansites/forums have. Policy shifts like this protection suggestion fly directly in the face of what we've been delicately supporting for the last year.


 * Yes, I wrote the vast majority of the poliicy articles. However, they were all based on existing traditions and guidelines that were understood, but unstated. Personally, I'd rather none of these needed to exist&mdash;however, with the size of this place these days, there's simply no avoiding some discussion of guidelines. I believe I've done this in the most minimal and unobtrusive way as possible, and I think my writings have personified the community standards quite well. That none of them have been siginificantly edited by anybody, including other admins, lends credence to this claim.


 * Comments like anon's and Sarah's attempt to enforce a hierarchy among editors. "I've edited here for six months, so I naturally have more rights than everyone else." This is a disturbing emerging thought process around the wiki. Our unstated goal from the beginning was that everybody here, regardless if it's your first day or your first anniversary, has exactly equal standing in terms of ability to edit and otherwise enact change. This is why, for example, we're seriously discussing your suggestions, anon, even though none of us know who you are, and some of us suspect you're a sockpupper. The GuildWiki has never wished a hierarchy to exist. &mdash;Tanaric 09:19, 7 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I think a natural sort of hierarchy exists anyway, often a regular contributor will help out new users because we can see what they're trying unsuccessfully to do. Then once the new user is shown they'll often thank the regular and apologise profusely for their lack of wiki knowledge. Later on the natural trend is ask some more questions and become more ambitious. I don't consider myself "above" other users but sometimes I do act as a sort of mentor, I am both au fait with the goings on here and am reasonably knowledgeable with wikicode and I'm happy to impart this knowledge where I can. I suppose in some ways this means there is a sort of hierarchy even if it's working in a positive way. I don't think I command an air of superiority or look down upon other users but I think that I'm aware of new users and new users are aware of seasoned contributors and look to them for guidance. Hierarchy is ok as long as a sense of superiority or inferiority doesn't accompany it.


 * Protecting heavily used templates is ok in my opinion. Your standard user doesn't need to make changes to them, long time contributors may want to change them but this can be facilitated via the templates discussion page or via an admin's talk page. User's from other wikis who know a bit about wikicoding will probably also be familiar with the concept of important pages being protected. Classifying things as unwiki is one thing but in reality high use templates don't need to be continuously and mercilessly edited like a normal article. On the other hand most policy pages should be open slather, any stupid changes will be reverted, as will major changes, so they can be discussed on the discussion page. --Xasxas256 09:58, 7 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Xasxas, I agree with your first paragraph. Of course experience and knowledge change an editor. My purpose was to avoid enforcing a hierarchy among editors, not to deny that one will naturally come into existance.


 * As far as your second paragraph, I disagree completely. "in reality high use templates don't need to be continuously and mercilessly edited like a normal article." Look at the history of any of the templates listed above as protection candidates. None of them have been edited more than a handful of times. Additionally, the vast majority of edits have been by non-sysop users. Protecting those templates would invalidate the very process by which they have come to exist, besides making it impossible for users to incrementally improve them. &mdash;Tanaric 10:38, 7 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Pages can't be protected before they're created, non admins can create any template (ie bring them into existance) regardless of our protection policy. If you're saying that they've only been edited a handful of times are you not agreeing that they don't need to be continuously and mercilessly edited like a normal article? Isn't there very little incremental improvement?


 * Actually I've edited a couple of them myself and I suppose it would have been a nuicence to have to post proposal to make a change on the discussion page. But then again watching one edit vandalise a hundred articles is a pain too! I'm a bit unsure now but I do think we should protect Advanced templates. I should also mention that of the 18 templates I opened, virtually all the edits have been made by admins or Stabber. --Xasxas256 10:50, 7 August 2006 (CDT)