Talk:Gate of Madness (mission)

Archived Discussions.

Discussion
"The distance at which you'll aggro him is roughly radar range minus twice the width of the shaded annulus on the perimeter of your radar."

What? (T/C) 00:47, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Huh...? --Gimmethegepgun 00:48, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Theres a shaded bit on the very edge of your compass, look in game.--[[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg]]îğá†ħŕášħ 00:49, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * See page history. I don't like teh language because aggro is usually talked about in relation to teh aggro bubble. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 01:02, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * About 2.5 times--[[Image:Gigathrash_sig_G.jpg]]îğá†ħŕášħ 01:03, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * k thx [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 02:44, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * So is this actually larger than spirit range? --◄mendel► 07:34, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * It's much easier to eyeball double the length of the shaded annulus than 2.5 times the aggro bubble range. Being able to eyeball the distance pretty precisely can help, as if you run forward too fast, you aggro both at once.  If you start inching slowly too far back, you might waste 5 minutes on it.  Quizzical 08:48, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I think the operational word is "shaded annulus", because almost no one knows firstly what an "annulus" is (and can't be bothered to look it up), and also because I don't think people even know that it exists. I look at teh radar all the time, but I never really noticed how the shadow remains a constant and could be used for measuring until Giga said here and I thought about it somewhat.
 * If there was some other landmark, either on the compass or visually, that could be used that would work just as well. My main concern was that with the language used it would be hard for most typical players to understand what was being talked about. Aggro bubble, on the other hand, is hard not to know; I don't think it is too hard to conceptualize of 2.5 times the bubble.
 * I mean, whatever is easiest is fine by me. I understand the importance of accuracy too. I think what would help most is a screenshot demonstrating exactly how far away to be (by drawing on the compass) [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 09:02, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

HM Solo Walktrough (Mission & Bonus)
Maybe the only NF mission that I had to restart 5 or 6 times, so as there's no real tip on how to do it HM solo, I'll write this guide.

Heroes setup: Henchmen setup: Kihm, Mhenlo, Herta, Eve
 * Gwen/Domination/key skill: VoR, Backfire, Empathy, misc interrupts & e-management
 * Olias/Curse/key skill: SS, rest mostly the same as curse sabway
 * Sosouke/Fire/key skill: SF nuker

You setup: key skill: Unyielding Aura (even if you're not monk, it's a life saver -> insta rez, full life, full-e and stoopid hench won't waste time in a middle of a fight to rez), pain inverter, lightbringer gaze, seed of life.

Make your way to temple, just pay attention to pop-ups and madness titan (from titan abomination -> Pain Titan) which could easily wipe a party in HM. The displayed map in mission section is probably not the most easiest way (after you've defeated the 2 first abomination titan go right, kill 2 more titan then torment claw, then a group of margonite, go left [beware pop-ups], go up, at the next 2 torments claw, go up, kill 3 scythe of chaos, continue up, when you trigger the dialog of shiro, come back down).

Close the 5 chaos rifts: easiest way is to pull the portal wraith with a longbow (NB. while rift is not closed margonite will respawn regularly -> kill the annoying ones, then go for wraith).

Shiro, the Lich & the Bonus: flag all heroes & hechies in "U" just to the door of the entrance. Pull Shiro FIRST !!! (Lich is easy to kill and won't follow you while attuning the altar). Use pain inverter to defeat Shiro (+VoR & SS, I didn't micro managed my heroes), you should expect 2 to 6 death amongst your AI fellows (but much more if you didn't flagged them correctly). Start attuning shrine from left to right, flag your heroes in the middle of each shrine, run with them, and if one is killed by the lich dismiss unyielding aura to rez (NB. as the lich won't follow, you shouldn't encounter much problems). DeoX 00:21, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The reason why this mission doesn't have an extensive hard mode section is that hard mode doesn't change much about the mission. The tactics that work in easy mode work just fine in hard mode, too.  The point of a hard mode section is to warn players who know how to beat the mission in easy mode of adjustments that they'll have to make or things that may catch them off guard in hard mode.


 * If you're relying on unyielding aura to rez, you're doing something seriously wrong. You might take a death or two here or there, especially against the pairs of titan abominations, but it's nothing that simple rez signets can't handle.


 * It's really not that hard of a mission, especially compared to other hard mode missions. I rated it #21 in difficulty, out of 57 hard mode missions in the campaigns.  (I exclude Augury Rock from my ratings because it varies too wildly by class.)  If I were to go strictly by my empirical results, I'd rate it as quite a bit easier still.  Quizzical 00:41, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Hard mode has always been easier than normal mode, at least for me. Shiro attacks faster, thus dies faster.--Darksyde  01:14, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Unyielding Aura Vs Rez signet -> you waste one elite but save 1 slot by hero (plus it's insta rez and tteleport to your location -> very usefull for bonus). Well not too hard once you know setup and what to do, but it's the mission that I had to restart the most in NF in order to probe builds and tactics at the end (btw. still amongst top 3 NF most difficult with Moddok & Dzagonnur when soloing / Every Canthan mission are freakin easy / only proph had a few quite hard mission where I was forced to team). Darkside, I would say Vs Shiro nm & hm are barely the same, die slower in nm but hit harder in hm... DeoX 01:45, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * If you've got no stance-ending skill, you're basically taking on Shiro by hoping to get lucky. That's not a strategy.  If you need a strategy that reliably works (both in easy mode and in hard mode), try reading the article.  Quizzical 03:44, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * You never have to engage Shiro in melee, and thus can kill him with totally random whatever-you-want skills...although that method is very slow. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:47, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Well I guess there is that approach, too, but it's not the one described above. Quizzical 06:18, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Shiro is easy regardless of difficulty level.--Darksyde  17:32, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * If you're relying only on hexes to kill Shiro without taking any defensive measures, you're taking a big risk. Impossible Odds sheds hexes, so if his attacks get 200 lifestealing, he has no hexes on him, and you don't have any way to end Battle Scars, you could wipe rather quickly.  Quizzical 18:36, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Alternative bonus method
Someone has added an alternative way to do the bonus that relies on killing Shiro first. If one were to assume that the Lich follows you around on the bonus just like Shiro, the strategy would be absurd. It's pretty easy to kill the Lich first, and much harder to kill Shiro first. The lich tends to hit harder, too, at least if you're comparing their plain attacks. Shiro's skills don't matter if you're not hitting him.

The claimed benefit of the strategy is the Lich not following you into the shrines. How effective is that? If first setting foot in a shrine (or at least getting the whole party into it) makes the Lich turn back immediately, the strategy could be pretty effective. If it takes going all the way back to the far corner to sometimes get the Lich to turn back, but isn't reliable or hampers your fight against the margonites, then the strategy is a waste. Quizzical 17:32, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The whole point is the Margonites are pretty darned easy compared to everything else. Shiro, being melee, will follow you relentlessly (unless you use the spirit trick described in the walkthrough), while the Lich, being ranged, not so much.  And so long as your healers are competent, the few licks the lich does get in won't matter one bit... and neither will charging to the back of the shrine to break his aggro.  Lich takes a heck of a lot more damage from you and yours, as well... frankly the easier fight to end is more enjoyable.  Besides... don't knock it til you try it!  :P PyroMage13187 21:26, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * He has tried it, though, as have many people. It's just generally better to take out the Lich first unless you've specifically got the skills for Shiro, cause in that case it doesn't matter one bit. :\ [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 22:00, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, this whole point is rather moot, if you think on it. Depending on primary class/build/style of play, either one could be easier for an individual player.  I've personally done it both ways, had no probs with either, and had Master's every time.  It comes down to let the players choose, and to each their own...  So let's find something more fun to nitpick, like which is the bigger hinderance to a party throughout factions- Togo or Mhenlo?  :D PyroMage13187 22:15, 30 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't see why Lich being ranged is an advantage over Shiro being melee. The first bonus strategy is to keep Shiro weakened, in which case, he won't do much damage to you at all.  While one can theoretically do the same to the Lich, that he will stay back firing with ranged attacks could easily mean that a hero that is supposed to weaken him while flagged in the shrine could be out of range.  Ordering the hero to attack the Lich in particular could lead to the hero running off and grabbing the Lich and dying alone, or pulling the Lich back to the group, either of which would be bad.
 * I don't doubt that the alternative strategy can be made to work. If the Lich doesn't reliably break aggro and leave you alone entirely pretty quickly once you're in the shrines, though, it would pretty much invariably be harder to use than the first strategy listed.  In that case, there isn't any reason to list it at all; it would be saying, here's what you could do if you wish to make the mission harder for yourself.
 * So the question again, which you didn't answer so far, is how reliably does the Lich break off aggro once you get into the shrines? How far in do you have to go to break aggro?  And does easy mode versus hard mode make a difference here?  As for trying it myself, I don't want to spend an hour to try out a dubious strategy.  Indeed, it would take quite a bit longer than that, since I'd have to refamiliarize myself with the controls of a game I haven't played in about six months.  Quizzical 22:40, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I haven't done this recently either, but I have tried killing Shiro first, and as I recall the Lich did not always disengage from the group, even when moving back into the shrines. Either way, the one that is left alive is attacking the party during the fight for the shrines, and the Lich does more damage there. Also, the shrine bonuses are not worth much fighting the Lich due to how weak he is. The current walkthrough for this alternate method could probably be cut down a bit, as the tactics are essentially identical to killing Shiro first.67.240.83.137 15:57, 31 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The method doesn't work to good in HM especially. He hit's got insane amounts of damage. I'd rather take the lich out first and then get all the shrines and then take out Shiro. Scorpion
 * This is my favorite mission in all games. Its actually very easy to get the bonus wether you kill shiro or the lich first if you stick shadowsong on a corner as you go up or down the stairs to the bonus shrines. Shiro takes a few seconds killing it and the lich will sit there trapped on it for a very long time. Any decent build will kill shiro and or the lich but its a good idea to have a stancebreaker in your reptoire. 66.190.225.109 03:11, September 18, 2010 (UTC)

Flagging H/H for free bonus
I am pretty sure this doesn't work anymore. After initiating Shiro's speech to open the gates, I sent the H/H in to go capture the shrines. But, this activated the Lich's dialogue, which spawned the portals and other monsters, and they were wiped shortly after that. Am I missing something? (T/C) 05:56, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, this most certainly does not work. I even tried moving out of radar range and then dying just to make sure I was out of range, and the H/H triggered the dialogue. I wonder when they fixed this... :\ I guess that's what I get for trying to cheat. (T/C) 06:44, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

This does work. In fact I did it a few days ago with a guildmate. 2 players + 6 heroes. When the final door opens we opened the "U" map, zoomed in for accurate flagging, flagged the heroes on every shrine, the heroes captured the shrines easily, mainly because Lich and Shiro weren't hostile to them yet. Ne33us 09:12, 10 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh, you flag them *after* clearing out the portals? Well that explains a lot. It also tells me that it's not worth the trouble, since the actual capping is one of the easiest parts of the mission..... I thought I'd be able to skip most of it and have all buffs before taking on the patrols. Entropy [[Image:Entropy Sig 2.jpg]] (C) 02:35, 12 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Update: I just tried this again today, and I found that while it's indeed true the heroes can go in and cap etc, you can not click on any of them ("dead person camera") or else that somehow counts as you "being" there and the Lich and Shiro turn hostile. :\ Entropy [[Image:Entropy Sig 2.jpg]] (C) 08:10, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Confirmed this works. After closing the portals to open the gate to the area, stand back and flag heros to the shrines using "U" map and wait for them to capture them.

The Video
This Video: * There is also a Youtube guide for this mission: Gate of Madness run/guide -- ◄mendel► 13:24, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to start banning anyone who re-adds that horrible video again. Not only on the grounds of (extended) GW:1RV violations, but also because it is obviously the same person(s)/socking/spamming links to external sites/inserting terribad advice/what have you. (You may note that the exact same words were used in each posting of the video.)

Alternatively, I could protect the page from anon edits, but that seems excessive. (T/C) 12:20, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Titans on the Bridge
Is it worth noting that it is incredibly easy to just run past both groups of Titan Abominations on the bridge and to avoid one of the patrolling groups on the far side (eg. move far enough forwards to run into the Margonite group)? Saves on alot of time/effort and is doable without any extra healing power (above what you would normally take considering the enviromental effect that is). arual 13:03, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Gate of SPARTAAAAAAAAAA!
^ A F K When Needed 08:17, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This is madness! Entropy [[Image:Entropy Sig 2.jpg]] (C) 10:59, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * yarr A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 11:02, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

still can't get HM bonus?
an easy way to do the bonus in HM is to use an air ele with blinding flash and a necro with enfeeble locked onto Shiro with all other skills disabled while the other 6 group members take care of the shrines. This way if one of the two locked on him die, there is a backup which will minimize shiro's effectiveness until the other can be res'd. Don't flag your team, rather let them follow you at their own pace as a flagged hero/hench will stop using skills until they are at their destination. doing this can result in shiro becoming effective again and your monks running instead of healing. I did this solo on HM without much trouble. Obviously, I killed the litch before starting the bonus capping. I did this hero/hench while playing a dagger stance ranger (don't knock it) so its totally doable. I recommend either going as capable tank yourself or bringing koss loaded with stances to battle swith shiro once you are done. Remember, this is easier with only one melee character in the group. Once you are done capping just run back up to the archway where shiros aggro range runs out in order that he will only attack you or your stance tank hero which should be flagged just within his range while the rest of the group attacks from outside. Disable any high power spike attacks on your heros and watch his life drop. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by The Alice (contribs).
 * Weakness? Eh okay man. A_F_K_sig_2.jpg A F K When Needed 19:07, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * That's why you call other targets to ensure that no one does much damage to Shiro while you're doing the bonus, as the article says. Blinding flash spam may not be terribly effective against Shiro due to the greatly shorted duration of hexes on him.  Quizzical 19:12, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * While playing through this on my Ritualist, I found that leaving behind a Shadowsong is sufficient to distract Shiro for up to 30 seconds, making it very easy to cap the shrines even in hardmode. If you've got multiple humans in the party and that Ritualist also has Ritual Lord, Soul Twisting, or Reclaim Essence, they can even keep Shiro out of commission by themselves for the entire capping time...Shadowsong doesn't deal enough damage that Shiro would ever use Impossible Odds, nor does it make Battle Scars very dangerous should he hit someone. Entropy [[Image:Entropy Sig 2.jpg]] (C) 20:49, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Sometimes shadowsong works really nicely, and sometimes Shiro is able to quickly kill the spirit. Anyway, I put a note in the notes section about shadowsong last summer.  It's an interesting quirk, but not reliable enough to recommend as a standard strategy.  Quizzical 21:12, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm just saying that this worked, and was easy. It required very little micromanagement and worked extremely well (no deaths in the party after the litch went down at all) Blinding flash if left as the the only option other than attunements kept shiro blind pretty much the entire time. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by The Alice (contribs).


 * I don't doubt that your approach was able to reduce Shiro's damage to nearly nothing. One enfeeble necro even without the elementalist is able to do that.  Having a second character assigned purely to stop Shiro's damage shouldn't suddenly spike it way upward.  It is kind of a waste and leaves you with one fewer character to fight Margonites, though.  Also, please sign your comments by putting ~ at the end of them, so that it is easy to identify who said what.  Quizzical 18:45, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Shiro's aggro seems to have expanded
To that of the lich's. Or something. Both charge my group at the same time at the same aggro line, which made things a little dicier. After a couple minutes of trying to get them to seperate, it seemed to have worked, but Shiro had kept attacking us without anyone in his aggro(trust me, at this point, I knew almost exactly where it was), and the lich was sitting back at home. Shiro went down(after the longest battle I've ever seen in this game) and then we aggroed the lich at the same aggro line that triggered both he and Shiro. So something's up. Update changed it? Glitch on our part? North* 16:16, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Never noticed they were different, tbh. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  16:56, 18 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, Shiro seems to have a bigger aggro range to me. But this is okay I think, because master is easier that way in my opinion. And I for myself had him to fight at that range from the first time on (and that was in the first week of Nightfall...) Kaede 17:13, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Assassin/Dervish build
I just watched a runner take on Shiro using the above build, and barely took any damage from shiro. No clue what his skillset was though, he wasn't sharing. Mauirixxx 00:39, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Separating Lich from Shiro
This would be easy if the Lich moved faster than Shiro. Any tips to add to the page to get them to separate? At the moment, the puller goes in and aggroes both and runs away but by that time Shiro is already hitting the puller while the Lich is on his way back because he got tired walking... SteeleB 12:46, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


 * You could try doing what the page says: inch forward until you aggro the lich, but don't keep going forward beyond that point to aggro Shiro, too.  Quizzical 14:23, 29 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Well I'm not sure if I had a bad spawn or what in HM but the Lich was behind Shiro. Pulling the Lich without Shiro as well was impossible. SteeleB 12:46, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The spawn locations of Shiro and the Lich do not vary. It's always possible to pull the Lich without Shiro.  What you probably did was to run forward too far and aggro both, then run away until both bosses backed off.  After that, they don't go back to their original spawn locations, so you're stuck.  Quizzical 19:43, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * What is the margin of error for doing this? I've never bothered trying to separate them before since it always seemed impossible. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 02:27, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure if I ever pulled both at once. If it did ever happen, I was easily able to avoid it once I figured out how to pull properly.  You have to stay against the north wall and inch forward.  Don't hold down the arrow to run, but only tap it.  You're looking for the Lich to shout something at you, as when he does that, he'll take a few seconds to move, but then he'll come.  Hold your position until he gets within your aggro bubble, and then back up.  Quizzical 02:57, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Easier Masters
I added a part for an easier masters reward. Don't know if the English used is correct, so if anyone could check that, that would be nice.. Fruit Salad  Yummi  Yummi 14:41, September 2, 2009 (UTC)

Respawns at rifts
"There are also several other mobs that are not associated with any rift. These include several Titans, Margonites, and a Torment Claw"

Seems to me like everything here is constantly respawning. Cant count how many times I've killed Titan abominations or other patroling shit and seems like everything's respawned :/
 * Claws never respawn. There is an Armageddon Lord that doesn't respawn. A few of the other groups are normal enemies which are hard to tell from the spawns, so you might not notice if you kill those. I know there's a pair of Titan Abominations which do not respawn, but there might be others that do. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:47, September 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, the Armageddon Lord does respawn, to my knowledge. I recall fighting it twice in one runthrough. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  12:35, September 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * Each rift has one pair of associated mobs that respawn. If the pair is margonites, then when they respawn, it picks two margonites at random, not necessarily the same two as before.  If you only kill one out of the pair, then that's enough to make another pair "respawn" so that you now have three margonites associated with that rift.  Killing the other margonite in the first pair won't trigger another respawn, but killing one in the second pair probably will.  Closing the rift associated with the pair of margonites (or torment creatures or whatever) will stop that pair of mobs from respawning.
 * That means that there are five "pairs" of mobs that will respawn. Nothing else in the area will respawn.  Figuring out which mobs are among the five pairs can be tricky, though.  Quizzical 14:14, September 9, 2009 (UTC)

Enfeeble Necro NOT enough
I was just doing this on HM with the suggested tactics and it worked fine, until we had to kill shiro. the enfeeeble staller can't handle shiro on his own! and with only that anti-melee skill(and i forgot stance removal, my fault^^) shiro will wipe your team when he uses impossible odds... 82.73.139.17 19:56, September 25, 2009 (UTC)


 * Shiro won't use impossible odds until he is low on life, and he won't get low on life until you attack him a lot. While doing the bonus, you should be constantly flagging heroes around and calling targets to ensure that Shiro takes very little damage.
 * If you mean killing Shiro after doing the bonus, then yes, you need other skills to counter battle scars. That's why the article recommends bringing a warrior with wild blow as the key part of a more complex strategy.  Quizzical 00:41, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

spirit spam pwns this
A group with a spirit spammer WILL run over Lich and Shiro roughshod, and leave their bootprints on their backs. A guildie and I just wasted them so fast that we didn't get a chance for the bonus. (We weren't quite so focused on doing the bonus until we saw how fast Shiro was going down.) If we had actually focused on doing the bonus we could have done it and would have had no problem with Shiro. Abased Fear 04:01, December 28, 2009 (UTC)


 * Was that normal mode or hard mode? If normal, then meh - spirit spam owns everything in normal mode.  If hard mode, then cool - I know what to do when I finally get around to finishing my Guardian of Elona title.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 05:15, December 28, 2009 (UTC)


 * Lich and Shiro are the easy part, whether in easy mode or hard mode. The more interesting question is how to handle the portals area.  Quizzical 07:53, December 28, 2009 (UTC)


 * I always forget to bring something to cope with Shiro and he then smoothly kicks my ass. Other than that, the steamrolling goes quite fine. Portal area is mostly pulling the Wraiths and making sure your DPS isn't too low to handle 2 groups (if you can't, it probably means a third group will join, and then a fourth, and a fifth, and then you die horribly). Only had trouble there in PUGlies. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  11:28, December 28, 2009 (UTC)


 * If you forget to bring something to handle Shiro, you're not going to bring a spirit spammer to handle Shiro. You could probably still win without having anything special to handle Shiro by fighting near the edge of the radius to which he'll chase.
 * If you can get a third group from a portal, and then a fourth, and then a fifth, then you're doing it wrong. One pair of margonites or torment creatures won't spawn until at least one of the previous pair is dead.  Kill the portal wraiths first and you won't have to worry about any more mobs spawning at the portal.  High DPS is wholly unnecessary.  Quizzical 19:50, December 28, 2009 (UTC)


 * You know, I just tried this on HM. Failed miserably because the spirits killed Shiro too soon. Couldn't attune the shrines fast enough. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  18:57, December 29, 2009 (UTC)
 * Could this be the only place in the game where spirit spammers "fail miserably"? :P --Macros 21:21, December 29, 2009 (UTC)
 * A note about a spirit spammer has been added, but is should be removed, or atleast eddited. I don't know wich to do. A revert doest fit here. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 15:14, September 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * I rephrased the walk-through to try to emphasize the key-points I thought it was trying to make. I added the suicide-cheat to the hero-flagging method.


 * I also did the rephrasing on the spirit note, but left it in. I'm not sure that I like including a build-specific method (esp. since [mostly thanks to Quizzical] this wiki has done such a good job of providing walkthroughs that will work for any team). On the other hand, near as I can tell, this mish qualifies as among the toughest for people in general, so any port in a storm might be appropriate. In other words, I'm ambivalent about the note remaining. &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 18:18, September 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * The reason people find this mission difficult is that they have no clue what they're doing. For some people, it just doesn't click that bringing massive amounts of damage and not much healing isn't always the optimal strategy, and so they die against Shiro.  And then they don't realize that they did anything wrong, so they try exactly the same strategy again, and fail in exactly the same manner.  Rinse and repeat until they give up and try to hire a runner.  It's not a hard mission if you understand what you're doing.  It's actually one of a handful of missions in the campaigns that I've never failed.
 * The strategy for beating Shiro already on the page is nearly impossible to screw up. At worst, the warrior dies and then Shiro runs away.  You then rez the warrior and get a free retry, as often as you need until you win.
 * Even if a spirit spammer does work really great, there's not much room to improve on that. Furthermore, I suspect that spirit spammer only works so well if shadowsong manages to chain-blind Shiro, and not so well if he kills it.  Or at least that was my experience when tinkering with it in hard mode.  Even though I usually bring Razah as one of my heroes, the only deviation from my usual healing build that I found worthwhile was adding shadowsong.  If one wants to mention that, then the way to do it is to mention shadowsong in particular, not a generic spirit spammer.  Actually, the notes already do.
 * Most people aren't going to have a ritualist hero by the time they do this mission in easy mode, anyway. Razah isn't available until after beating the campaign.  Bringing something for easy mode that most players won't have available when they do the mission in easy mode isn't necessarily a viable strategy.
 * Also, you've worded the bonus to say that the naive strategy of running around to shrines and not attacking Shiro is only suitable for parties with players, as if someone with henchmen/heroes shouldn't use it. It's a little bit frantic with henchmen/heroes, but not at all difficult.  The alternative of flagging henchmen/heroes around to capture the shrine on their own is more finicky, and easier to screw up if you accidentally aggro Shiro and the Lich, in which case, you can't finish the bonus that way.  Go ahead and leave it on the page as an alternative, but the first strategy shouldn't be only for a team of players.  Quizzical 06:59, September 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * My perception of those who fail includes those folks who favor defense, prots, and heals...not just those who bring too much offense. I have spoken with people who tried to follow the wiki advice and were unable to succeed. I took a stab at rephrasing based on the in-game advice that seemed to have gotten people passed their sticky points. I am, however, going to remove the SoS build note (see below).


 * People who are doing the mission for the first time in NM or HM run into different issues than for those who are doing the mission for the nth time. My understanding is that (a) they have trouble getting past the portals, (b) have no trouble getting the bonus with h/h (using the flagging technique), and (c) have trouble separating Shiro from the Lich, and/or (d) they have trouble taking down one of those two (not sure why some people can't handle the Lich, but that's what they tell me). Near as I can tell, they aren't repeating the same failed strategy; they are trying a defensive approach that fails, they switch to more damage, and then encounter trouble some place else.


 * I don't have any insight into difficulties for newbie player teams because the only teams that I've seen always include someone with enough experience to check builds beforehand (or they bring a build that can do most of the heavy lifting, relying on the others for support/distraction/emergency rez), so I'm not sure what to advise. In contrast, my experience is that newbies with h/h teams have no trouble with flagging, but do have trouble with the primary strategy.


 * Naturally, new h/h teams aren't going to have a hero Rit in NM. However, player toons are ascended by this point, so if someone wanted to run an Rt/-- or --/Rt SoS build, they certainly could. The problem I find with the advice is that it goes against the wiki's philosophy to suggest that a particular class of builds is essential, especially when there are alternatives. On reflection, I'm going to remove the SoS note &mdash; spirit spammers own a lot of the game and it's not particularly interesting that they also can help in this mission. &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 09:03, September 17, 2010 (UTC)