Talk:Game updates/Archive16

Nerf here nerf there nerf everywhere
I've had enough of this pathetic shit, Isaiah that dumb idiot is destroying this game right in front of your noses. Covered as a "PvP/PvE split" they have already started their campaign of slowly destroying Guild Wars subtly. Just subtly, not to a point that makes you quit, no, they are just subtly nerfing just so much that you think "ah it's getting worse and worse...anyways..Guild wars 2 will ROCK i bet!". But not with me. Assassins are nothing but a shadow of themselves anymore, incapable of doing any real spiking. Why would I use an Assassin over a Warrior now. First it was fine, when you could still play alternatives like a scythe-sin. But then that got nerfed too. Maybe escape into a shutdown build? Nerfed. A critical bow build? Heck, rangers are running around with scythes, staves, everything, just not bows cause they suck so hard and have so little good elites (burningarrowkthxbye). Buuut maybe you could use the assassin as a farm character? I mean after all we have shadow fo- ... oh it got nerfed to death, just like Shroud of Silence - first buffed so it takes no skill, then nerfed so it STILL takes no skill and is a bother to use... They're destroying this game, and when Guild Wars 2 is out and has sufficient buyers, they will take it off I bet. --62.158.105.221 19:48, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I laughed when he said that Rangers don't use bows. Apply poison and D-Shot is all that is needed for a good ranger build. 193.91.164.176 22:16, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, rangers suck with bows, this is why a vast number of top 100 guilds use them. Lord of all tyria 22:18, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * He does have a point tho. 81.71.25.43 05:23, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 * DShot=god, attach it to ANY build that either uses a bow or doesn't need a weapon (so you can have a bow with you) and you're gonna give the entire other team a massive headache. And honestly guys, the PvE/PvP split is probably one of the best ideas Izzy has ever had (if you can even call that HIS idea, since it's the most hideously obvious thing in the world to do) --Gimmethegepgun 05:29, 12 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Top guilds use rangers? Since when? --Lady Raenef 12:17, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Since the damn Dawn of Time, all the way till this very day. Also, new comments go on the bottom. Not between 2 people's messages. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  12:23, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Really? When did Guild Wars have invisible dye? I sure want some. --Lady Raenef 12:30, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Seems you've never seen a good guild GvG, eh? --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  12:31, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Seems you don't watch enough... Paragon > Ranger. --Lady Raenef 12:33, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * DShot > Chants, ololz. Paragons aren't really uber anymore. Anyhow, go look at top GvGs, adn count the Paras and Rangers in normal teams. Rangers will massively outnumber Paras. Defo. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  12:35, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Whatever you say. Point is, Shadowsteps are ruined. No one likes it except for those who don't use assassins.--Lady Raenef 12:39, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

(indent reset) Great. Now, in Izzy's desire to fuck up over-stepping bastards, he as inadvertently drawn my ire, for he has nerfed the one skill that made my ele awesome in PvE... Guess I could switch to a E/N and use Consume Corpse when I want to Star Burst the hell out of someone. Still though... Le sigh... talk 20:45, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Gee wiz, havent you ever seen them undo a skill balance before? Im sure they will see how crappeh sins are without spikeability and rebalance sins again, chill man, theres a skill balance every freakin month. (GW-Kiron 21:36, 13 July 2008 (UTC))


 * Eeh, I'm not bein pissy, just sayin it seems slightly contrived. Maybe a .5 second aftercast would  be more acceptable.  I tested it, and the aftercast is so barely noticeable when I'm starbursting that it hardly matters.  It might kill me in PvP, but that draws so little of my attention nowdays its not even worth mentioning.  [[Image:RHSig.jpg]] talk 07:40, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * "Why would I use an Assassin over a Warrior now." Ah, you see, that is the point. It's called balance. The point is to have a situation where Assassins are better than Warriors in some aspects, but weak in others. Sure, the game has tipped the balance in ways, but that's completely out of player creativity. What's a guy to do but adapt to current trends? We can't have one build winning 'every single time.' It just doesn't work out. ThetaRepublic 06:08, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

July 10th
Anyone know what it was? It's not on the GW website. ~Bunny 22:55, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * New Tonic, reward pts, not sure what else... ICY  F IFT Y FIVE  23:00, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Info's now up on the official wiki, the just raped shadow steps :S ICY  F IFT Y FIVE  23:15, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * wtf why did they kill Signet of Judgment? Why does ANet hate smite so much? --Gimmethegepgun 23:20, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm guessing Mesmers were still spreading too much AoE disruption with it. It's a shame too, it's really all the use it ever got. &mdash; Powersurge360 Violencia  23:22, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * i think anet should nerf everything til it's completely useless. the end.--71.32.200.206 00:55, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Is actually the A/Mo that are abusing the SoJ, they keep knocking down the key player in RA and make sure they are down. - TofuES
 * ANet could've just added a bit more recharge. It's a signet after all... Half the normal range is just... too weird for signets. And I believe the problem was with Me/Mo smiters, not A/Mo spikers... J Striker 05:46, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Well I never got kill by Me/Mo and after Mantra of Inscriptions had been change, I do not see that many Me/Mo but there are alot A/Mo. - TofuES
 * It makes little difference to A/Mo casters as they use dancing daggers which are already half-ranged. --Evenfall 07:21, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Enfeebling Blood
Anyone know why that got nerfed? &mdash; Powersurge360 Violencia  00:14, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I think I'm the only person who ever abused that skill, but that's only in PvE... O_o RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 00:17, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It was basically a cheaper Enfeeble (which could be used with Masochism, btw) but was AoE. Enfeeble was toned down, so I guess it's only right to do the same for Enfeebling Blood, even though I never saw a lot of use of it. Enfeeble was usually taken over it, though. >.> ــѕт.  мıкε  00:20, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * lol, Must've been caught on the backswing from the Shadow Step nerfbat. &mdash; Powersurge360 Violencia  00:25, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Ride the Lightning, and the conditional/delayed Shadow Steps (like Scorpion Wire, Augury of Death) were untouched (and some other unused ones.) I didn't think catching a shadow step spike was that hard, though. >.> ــѕт.  мıкε  00:30, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I assumed they were nerfed do to the abuse of spike builds that completely murder unprepared teams in the lower arenas. They would often use PBAoE ele spells and shadow steps combined with Iron Palm to make short work of unexpecting players. &mdash; Powersurge360 Violencia  00:36, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Ya, the whole Aftershock/Shockwave spikes. What's funny, though, is that Searing Flames isn't nearly as obvious (no Shadow Step or need to get into close range) and will likely deal more damage if done in groups of eles. Getting hit by 5-6 Searing Flames followed by Glowing Gaze and another round of SFs sounds more painful, and you can only prot so many allies at once. XD ــѕт.  мıкε  00:41, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * From the Dev Updates: Enfeebling Blood has been far too effective at spreading Weakness everywhere, especially at low Curses attribute. We've adjusted the duration scaling and increased the health sacrifice to add cost and enforce some more attribute investment.  &not; Wizårdbõÿ777  ( talk ) 00:59, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * This is a very good way to stop SF Spikes lol. ICY  F IFT Y FIVE  01:01, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * "Incoming!" can slow down any spike, tbh, but it's rather unused lately, even the new PvE version. ــѕт.  мıкε  01:18, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm more pissed at the Death's Charge aftercast... should make running with it a bit harder, since you can't dash right afterwards to escape aggro.. >.>--Cosmitz 02:47, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Dash is a stance aftercast doesn't do anything to it. - TofuES
 * You wouldn't be able to move because of the aftercast &mdash; Powersurge360 Violencia  05:23, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * ^My point. 0.75 is enough to get into a messy situation while running. >.> --Cosmitz 05:28, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Enfeebling Blood was used in GvG. Rebel Rising(rawr) won the last monthly AT with 3-4 Mo/N with Enfeebling Blood. --Evenfall 07:25, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Assassin
No more shadowstep spikes...--71.67.243.230 05:05, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * No, slower shadowstep spikes.  &not; Wizårdbõÿ777  ( talk ) 05:29, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually more to the point of "your target will have 0.75s more time to see the spike and do something". &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 06:12, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Depends on skill. "All your attack skills are disabled for 1 whole second and you lose all gained adrenaline gained for them.", or "If your target is a Monk, he will cast Guardian on himself and you fail with spiking." J Striker 06:16, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * um no if its a monk the aftercast is too short for a monk to cast a guardian, unless he 4040 his guardian but the monk would more likely cast spirit bond or prot spirit. ImpulseDestiny 07:21, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Attacks are not instant, so the monk has 0.75s + attack speed to react and cast guardian. --Evenfall 07:30, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Mmhm, even assuming the assassin uses Iron Palm or something, the monk still has .5 seconds of free time. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 07:32, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Good point but still you still have to account for the monks reaction time and his ability to know what to do in tht situation. ImpulseDestiny 18:22, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * From the perspective of a decent PvP Mesmer (mine, that is) 1.25 is a HUGE window of time to react and cast a moderate spell (.5-1s cast time). If a monk can't prot in that window and have any degree of experience under their belt, then they have no business in PvP &mdash; Powersurge360 Violencia  23:03, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Nope, sins can't do shit now, and don't give me that "Guardian takes 1 second to cast" bs, you won't be able to get to your off-hand attack before he casts Guardian.
 * Sins can still do something... - [[Image:AdVictoriam1.PNG|19px]] Ad Victoriam  05:31, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Sure, let's use a skill that's glitched. It wins. Also, why Guardian? Use Reversal of Fortune. It's easier to cast. Not to mention, if the monk was moving, he's got quite a bit of distance from the assassin. Shadowstep + Cripple is a thing of the past, unless the assassin is lucky enough to shadowstep in front of them, the direction they're running. But since it's random of when that happens, you can't say it's a buff. I agree, this update destroyed the assassin. I vote Critical Strikes affects shadowstep aftercast, and all shadowsteps have 4 attribute or lower, 50% chance of failure. --Lady Raenef 12:29, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Shat Assault isn't bugged/glitched. It used to be bugged, though, where it dealt >200 damage if the target was enchanted. Twice. Now it just functions differently from other skills. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  12:33, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Gosh, it sure would be nice if some genius at ANet actually buffed some of the never-used Assassin elites/skills to counteract constantly nerfing the FEW most commonly used elites and now too basically all the shadow steps. I could deal with the constant Sin nerfs if they actually bothered to fix Shroud of Silence or buff other elites to make them more attractive. I'm sick of these constant "Updates" "Nerfdates". - insidious  420  15:21, 12 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I semi-agree with Lady Raenef. Like many other spells, let shadowsteps fail 50% if attr 4 or lower (use Shadow Arts for non-attribute shadowsteps), so that other classes can't take advantage of it as easily.  That said, the aftercast should be removed, since it pretty much defeats the purpose of the shadowstep...  By the time the aftercast wears off, the target is shortbow range away, so what was the point of the shadowstep in the first place?  This update was trying to fix a legitimate problem, but Anet royally failed at it...  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 17:29, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Mass skill revert
Who else is in favor of reverting EVERY skill to its original function? Before any nerfs/buffs were made. Who knows... this may even make Ursan-haters happy.--68.102.139.94 15:15, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Nyyyyoooooooooo. That would make all of this PvE/PvP balancing worthless, and a lot of the buffs/nerfs were necessary, tbh. ــѕт.  мıкε  15:30, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * These cross profession nerfs (see WY for a previous example) make sense from a developer's standpoint, but I feel like there are ways to limit the effectiveness of such skills without destroying them for the class for which they were originally intended. Perhaps forcing the player to lose all adrenaline after a shadowstep?  Even an energy cost increase would be prohibitive for Warriors abusing these skills.  It just seems that Assassins have enough trouble with speed already.  As it is, they have to devote their secondary profession to an IAS in PvP. Lazuli  15:39, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think that the adrenal attack skills were the only issue; there were so many AoE spike builds that used skills like Shockwave, Aftershock and Shadow Steps. To compensate for it, though, mebbe Way of the Assassin and/or Flashing Blades should be made to increase your attack speed (by 33%)? Way of the Assassin as is sucks because of how critical hit chances stack, and because of Way of the Master's introduction, while Flashing Blades is just plain bad because you have to be attacking for it to function. EDIT: An IAS might make it redundant with Critical Agility (which is basically equal to an Elite skill), but some additional effect would be nice; if not an IAS, maybe increased damage for attacks. ــѕт.  мıкε  15:48, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * A lot of buffs/nerfs were needed to combat skills not entering at the same time. Granted this would kill the current meta... but the least it would be fun--68.102.139.94 16:16, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The shadowstepping Shockwave spike left the meta a while ago. The increased cast time saw to that (Cry of Frustration).  In general, Warriors cannot spike without adrenaline, and they were the reason these skills were nerfed.  Regardless, the developer notes mention underpowered elites being improved as soon as next month.  Personally, I think Assassins are about due for an IAS that they can actually use in PvP.  Your suggested improvements to Flashing Blades seem to hold some promise.  And maybe Shroud of Silence, perhaps the most laughable elite ever (after the nerfs), will get some love. <font color="#4056b2">Lazuli  17:07, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * SIGNET OF MIGHT. Lord of all tyria 17:08, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Amity, Assault Enchantments, Decapitate, Double Dragon, Magehunter's Smash, Magehunter Strike, Peace and Harmony, Ray of Judgment, Stone Sheath, Wastrel's Collapse, Word of Censure... There are so many more, but I'm getting bored. <font color="#4056b2">Lazuli  17:18, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * And now on that list as of this update, Signet of Judgment. However, we can ALL be completely certain that Ray, Word of Censure, and Siggy will NEVER be buffed, as Izzy despises Smiting for some reason --Gimmethegepgun 17:22, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Because if smiting gets skills that can deal big damage at range, you could end up with something like ritspike. And ritspike was fucking gay. Lord of all tyria 17:27, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Except even now Channeling can still be used by a Rit PRIMARY. No monks out there (except for me) use Smiting, because because quite simply it has no synergy whatsoever with DF, and more can be gained from combining with other attributes and skills (like FC and Mantra of Inscriptions) than from being able to have more than 12 in the stat. In fact, it is the ONLY attribute line that has seen more use in the past as a secondary rather than as a primary, being used by FC Mesmers and also by various Elementalists (most notably MoM smiters) --Gimmethegepgun 17:35, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * [rawr] had a smiting monk in the last mAT. [dR] had one as well when they won. Lord of all tyria 17:40, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * No synergy? lol thats why they made smiters boon then add divine boon and skills like smite condi, hex, Reversal of dmg you easily get ~150hp heals every cast and AoE holy dmg aswell. ImpulseDestiny 18:29, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

I Can't Believe
Assasins got nerfed AGAIN. Lemme tell you this - I have played gw for 2years, I have also like most people played most professions extensively all with the exception of paragons because their just gay. now that i have experienced each class. I tend to get bored of them after a while - got bored of being wammo - deleted him, got bored of being a mes - used for storage, got bored of being ele - used for storage, dervish - errrr almost bored but not quite. Assassins has to be one of the most fun classes that I have tried & stayed with through out my time in gw. their amazing to play & I enjoy playing assa as much as i <3 my ranger & I really <3 playing ranger.

I'm really hoping for a major buff as i dont want to have to demote my favorite char to storage muppet & sit there in my GH crying like some emo about the days I use to pwn in PvP.

assassins have been nerfed so many times its not worth playing them anymore 89.240.55.132 01:23, 12 July 2008 (UTC)


 * You dont need to use crummy nerfed skills to be effective in PvE. Seriously. My Assa still sees use, whenever I feel like playing GW. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  01:25, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You forgot the most winnage skill of all for sins in PvE. And, of course, this non-sin but still winnage skill. - [[Image:AdVictoriam1.PNG|19px]] Ad Victoriam  02:11, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Shadows Steps weren't nerfed because they're Assassin Skills, but because they're Shadow Steps. If a frontliner was an /A, 90% chance he had a Shadow Step. &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|19px|My Talk Page :o]], 05:55, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Damn you for mentioning Ursan as a win skill. :P PossessedLinebeck 19:55, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Ursan Blessing's status as a "win skill" might not be long for this world. <font color="#4056b2">Lazuli 14:10, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Hawt... <3 --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  14:47, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * the thing is i rarely use my sin in PvE at all thats why i pissed off - PvE im cool with but the PvP nerfs are ruffling my feathers. i love takin my sin into PvP

78.151.103.72 18:55, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I wonder if people will ever quit whinging about updates, or am I being to optimistic --BeeD 10:07, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, you are being "to" optimistic, because if A.Net continues slowly breaking established systems/skills in the game, people have a right to be "whinging". Almost every "update" for the past couple months has been full of nerfs and few, if any, meaningful buffs to balance.... - insidious  420  14:26, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The Dev updates of this update contained information about the next update; they want to buff underused crappy skills. So, be without fear (Be Without Fear is an awesome song, btw). --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  14:44, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Omg...imagine Flare spam becomes the new meta... -_- - [[Image:AdVictoriam1.PNG|19px]] Ad Victoriam  01:40, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Imagine this:


 * Elementalist
 * Flare: increased damage to 20...80. Changed damage type to holy. This skill no longer has an aftercast. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 03:41, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Reduced energy cost to 0. Reduced activation time to 1/4. This skill cannot be interrupted. This skill cannot recharge slower than normal. This skill cannot be blocked by terrain. - [[Image:AdVictoriam1.PNG|19px]] Ad Victoriam  04:53, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Flare: Elite Fire Magic spell. Target foe and all foes in the area take 80...9999 fire damage. 50 5 60
 * A la Final Fantasy style! [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 08:13, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * More a la Gwen during Preview Weekend style. XD RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 16:25, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

@ insidious, Granted that there have been a lot of nerfs lately, admittedly it hasn't affected me since I don't play the professions that the updates have been largely aimed at. However, you say that Anet is breaking established systems/skills in the game, *gasp* I would have thought that breaking established systems/skills was a good thing, it prevents stagnation and encourages creativity. Ok, sure your favourite combo isn't as powerful anymore or is difficult to sling together because of timing issues or whatever else, that's a good thing! It increases the challenge of the game. Again, granted that certain regions will become more of a grind if use the same combo, then find another combination! Remember the days of Diablo 2 when patches came out every 18 months or so, as enjoyoable as the game was, it became too boring too fast. I'd rather not have that happen to a game that I still love. --BeeD 17:01, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * They haven't really broken anything until The Holy Combo is nerfed. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 18:29, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Sever-Gash is a great combo and all, but it definitely isn't overpowered. I'm a little surprised that Dismember/Eviscerate+Axe Rake/Twist isn't meta. It's an easy way to cripple, tbh. ــѕт.  мıкε  02:06, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Too many conditional skills, too few slots. Needs more +damage. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:17, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
 * BeeD: While I do agree with you that change is necessary to keep things interesting & balanced, I have to disagree in context of this set of Sin nerfs. Sins are low-armor melee characters and shadow steps have always been their strongest form of offense and consequently defense ("the best defense is a strong offense"). Sins are much more susceptible to standard melee counters, especially blind, since missing a single attack skill in a chain ruins the whole chain.  Warriors can tank thru conditions and (typically) spam whatever skills in any order at any time.  Shadow steps give a slight edge to the Sin, but are not overpowered in themselves.  Shadow steps in my mind gave a Sin an alternative to Assassin's Remedy; ie: jump the blind bot before they have a chance to blind you, instead of precasting AR & doing the typical Golden+Wild+Shattering combo all while tanking thru conditions.


 * This round of nerfs to shadow steps was aimed at stopping non-primary Sin tele-spikes, which it did, but it also basically destroyed tele Sins as well: I cannot use Shadow Walk anymore PERIOD in at least 3 builds I used to commonly use on my primary Sin; I used to use Dark Prison but it's nearly useless now; I have never sacrificed my elite for Shadow Prison since months and months ago, but now I will surely never again.  My ultimate point in this long-winded post is this: shadow steps are good for Sins and should probably only be usable by them, period, instead of breaking them for everybody. -  insidious  420  17:42, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Like I had said in the Assassin topic above, they failed fixing a legitimate problem. I think the answer here is in attribute investment, with a 50% chance of failure with low ranks.  Kind of like Well of the Profane.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.jpg]] 18:07, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Or like Oath Shot? --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  18:38, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Or like Plague Signet?--[[Image:Cobalt6.jpg|50x19px]] - (<B><font color="Blue">Talk </B>/<font color="Green"><B>Contribs</B> ) 18:42, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, like all of those skills. Is it really needed to list them all?[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]] Entrea   [Talk]  18:47, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Oath Shot has a use to list, since it's a different clause; <8, rather than <5, or something like that. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  18:49, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I guess.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]] Entrea   [Talk]  18:55, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Or like Unyielding Aura? (sorry) --[[Image:Cobalt6.jpg|50x19px]] - (<B><font color="Blue">Talk </B>/<font color="Green"><B>Contribs</B> ) 19:00, 17 July 2008 (UTC)