Talk:Word of Healing

Calculation
I believe the calculation has been fixed. See this GWOnline thread. --Hewus 23:31, 27 Sep 2005 (EST)

Capture
can this really be captured in the FoW? i though there were no bosses in those elite areas. --Honorable Sarah 14:39, 27 June 2006 (CDT)
 * The Priest of Menzies article states that that monk boss is the only one in the fissure of woe. I just moved the skill cap from the prophecies section to the core section. --Chris Burnham 10:41, 28 June 2006 (CDT)
 * I got my WoH from him believe it or not :) &mdash; Skuld  12:01, 28 June 2006 (CDT)
 * i stand corrected. i was down there last night and saw the aura and everything. even got the 2%. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 10:56, 29 June 2006 (CDT)

Divine Boon heal before WoH
The Divine Boon heal is applied before WoH as far as I can see. This should be mentioned in notes since it says WoH is effective with Boon. The fix that was added in the SF update was only for the Divine Favor heal. 80.202.245.195 11:16, 25 August 2006 (CDT)
 * i'll go out to nameless and test on the student of burning today. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 11:14, 25 August 2006 (CDT)
 * tested. boon hits first, then the 50% condition is checked. i've screenshots available on request. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 19:30, 25 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Reverted my revert, but perhaps the first part of the note (that was already there) should simply be removed. --Fyren 22:09, 25 August 2006 (CDT)

Where in Elona ?
Should'nt this skill be found in elona O.O ? Because ive searched far and wide and found nothing......... The elona cap isnt on the WoH page so im wondering..... Ieldra 00:11, 24 November 2006 (CST)


 * It may not have a cap, since there is a core (underworld or FoW) cap location. Therefore, an Elonian capture is not needed, but we don't really know yet.  --Blastedt(Talk) 09:47, 10 December 2006 (CST)


 * Theoretically a Blue Tongue Heket boss should have the skill, since they definitely use it...

I think a note should be added saying Although there is no place to capture this in elona, The Priest of Menzies in the Underworld ( a core location ) carries this skill. Or something like that.

This vs lod vs zb vs gol vs hl
Kaos Klan 20:09, 1 January 2007 (CST) Just speaking on Pve terms here. I noticed that lots of people were bashing this skill on the PvE monk page. This is definately the best you can use for PvE. Why? It gives you a 200 point or higher cast when you use it. Its cheap, and its targetted. GoL is bad because the only time you do need to cast that fast would be when your target is in danger of dying, which is the time to use Infuse Health, not cast Glimmer. And usually Glimmer isnt enough to heal the party mate fully. LoD is bad because its not targetted. Single guy dying and casting LoD? Ure screwed. ZB is a big heal, and heals exactly as much as WoH. But its 10 energy. The bad thing is in PvE, if you accidentally use it on a party mate thats above 50%, youve just wasted 10 energy. Healing Light is an awesome skill in general since it heals for a lot and gives you energy back, but it wont heal a target under 50% for as much as WoH or ZB can. in conclusion, WoH is awesome, stop bashing it, ppl
 * WoH is better for healing tanks and spike damage. LoD is better for countering pressure damage. Light of Deliverance is more energy efficient than a >50% WoH if it heals 2 targets and more energy efficient than a <50% WoH if it heals 3 or more targets. As for Zealous Benediction, if you cast it on someone over 50% half of the time, the average energy efficiency is the same as WoH if you always cast it on someone under 50%, the only problem is that it takes longer to recover from energy denial. -- Gordon Ecker 22:48, 1 January 2007 (CST)
 * Kaos Klan 00:03, 4 January 2007 (CST) but isnt that the point of pve? healing tanks and spike damage from monsters I mean.
 * There's also situations where foes come from multiple directions or there's a large number of nukers. -- Gordon Ecker 00:13, 4 January 2007 (CST)
 * ZB is still a big heal if they are above 50% and is free if they are not. Also it is prot based making it useful for prot monks. LoD heals the entire party for a cheap cost making it effective against nukers. GoL is much more spammable and also useful even if they are above 50%. Healing Light is great and cheap if you sue in comination with enchants. WoH is the best against spikes but in PvE mobs usually aren't that co-ordinated, also it only heals other allies. In conclusion all are great skills depending on your build and the situation.--Devils Apprentice 20:43, 22 January 2007 (CST)

(resetting indent) ZB is not free. 10 energy -7 energy = 3 energy. Basic math. Soothing memories is 5 energy -3 energy making that 2 energy, wich still isn't free. Honestly I think ZB sucks. It's heal and recharge are exactly on par with Spirit light, but for 3 energy (conditional) and twice the energy otherwise, for slightly faster cast. (though it can be used by prot monks who heal) Personally, I still think ZB sucks. 76.173.217.181 06:12, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Check the date on that last post. At the time of that comment, Zealous Benediction gave back a full 10 energy if you met the condition, making it a free heal. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> .cнаt^  06:21, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

woh related skills cleanup
Style and formatting/Skills keep related skills short and simple please. -- Xeon 03:20, 2 January 2007 (CST)

Why is this realted to dwaynas kiss, the two have almost nothing in common?--Rmg 171091 09:21, 6 January 2007 (CST)


 * Then find one thats better -- Xeon 09:24, 6 January 2007 (CST)


 * A basic healing then an extra healing if the ally is under a certain condition (Low health, Enchantment, etc.).-- ~Edo Dodo~  09:26, 6 January 2007 (CST)


 * More like Words of Comfort; WoC's conditional heal is always the same while Dwayna's stacks for each enchantment & hex. Tycn 02:36, 21 January 2007 (CST)


 * Light of Deliverance ? - [[Image:Smoke_Trap.jpg|19px]] Entice789  (Talk | Contributions) 02:59, 21 January 2007 (CST)


 * I think only Zealous Benediction and Light of Deliverance should be there.--Relyk 18:24, 21 January 2007 (CST)

Skill Change Weekend
Has anyone noticed it now heals for a base of 15-83 and THEN the extra 15-83 conditional, just after this skil balance change weekend, i hope this keeps.

I also thought these changes were only limited to the HoH, what gives?


 * They're not. --Fyren 15:11, 21 January 2007 (CST)


 * Should this go in the notes? An anonymous user added it, then it was reverted. I'm in favour of re-adding the note, as the skill description isn't explicit about whether the two healing effects are simultaneous or sequential. -- Gordon Ecker 19:06, 16 May 2007 (CDT)
 * I don't particularly care either way, but I'd say since the description is two sentences, I'd expect two heals. --Fyren 20:27, 16 May 2007 (CDT)


 * But it doesn't explicitly state whether it checks health before or after the first heal :D. Does the bonus healing for Divine Favor take effect before or after the second heal? -- Gordon Ecker 20:51, 16 May 2007 (CDT)


 * Testing it now, it's all at once. With 42 of 85 health, I get the full heal.  Divine favor is after.  --Fyren 21:15, 16 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Wasn't this changed back in 2006? The only thing that's wrong is if Divine Boon is combined, as Boon will heal the instant you finish casting a spell causing you to possibly only get the smaller heal due to pushing their health over 50%. --Kale Ironfist 22:09, 16 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Someone added a note saying it was working how it did originally (this edit). --Fyren 22:56, 16 May 2007 (CDT)

FINALLY!
they made this comparable to ZB! Target self! JAHAHAHA --Gimmethegepgun 01:29, 9 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Comparable? I think Word just got over-buffed.  It's probably gonna get nerfed down a little bit very soon (but still better then before this buff). -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 01:40, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Lmao, ZB is a piece of shit.
 * How so? --Shadowcrest 01:44, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * ZB is probably my prot monks favorite elite. [[Image:Isk8.png]]Sk8 01:47, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh My God, this is probably the biggest buff I've ever seen to a single skill! WoH Monk is totally 1337 once again :) Although, this just make missions like Thirsty River about 100% harder. (T/C) 02:36, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Eww. Good point. That mission was hard enough to begin with anyway, unless you had daze. --Shadowcrest 02:38, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Urgh, you just made me heave a little there... In any case, WoH finally got the 1 thing that made ZB so insanely much better: target self. That was the reason ZB is so lame (that and it's in prot) --Gimmethegepgun 03:12, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * ZB is still better on a person but WoH is farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr better on the AI. I always had a soft spot for WoH so I like the buff --Blue.rellik 03:17, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * My monk (the second one, the first one smites diss the smite and ikillu ) always used WoH cause I'm pathetic at protting :/ I have difficulty remembering to reapply self enchantments like attunes, let alone using on other people --Gimmethegepgun 03:19, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * WoH was definitely the most buffed skill in this update for sure. 3 points.  1) More Healing 2) Shorter Recharge 3) Target Self.  I am really wondering what made anet decide to test this out.  I'm not certain that this one, along with some of the other monk skill buffs, will stay around.  [[Image:Isk8.png]]Isk8 03:21, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It's just a matter of time before they at least de-buff it a bit. At 16 healing and a target that is below 50% you heal for 264!?!?!  Just a matter of time... -69.19.14.44 04:40, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It's way overpowered now, 5 energy, 3 second recharge 200+ heal when under half hp where its really needed... I fought a woh monk as a migraine mesmer that was using holy haste, couldn't kill it...--Sefre  [[Image:Sefresig.jpg|15px|]] Talk*Cont. 04:47, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * From what Izzy's said so far, he's trying to make single-target Monks a better choice then passive defense party healers. Nerf to LoD and super buff to WoH, in the same update. Hint hint much? I'm expecting tweaks to the heal size on this, but I think the can't target self clause has been a long time in saying goodbye. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> .cнаt^  06:18, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I think ZB somehow is still as good as WoH. At prot16, ZB heals for 190. If target is under 50% health, that is 3 energy cost, which is 63 health per 1 en. At Heal16, WoH heals for 264 if target is under 50% health. That is 52.8 health per 1 en. 222.152.139.122 08:14, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Adding to the ZB vs. WoH thing, I want to restate that ZB is under the protection line. You can still use heavy damage-prevention skills, while having a strong backup heal. I think that alone makes it comparable with the new WoH. [[Image:SnagretpuddingSig.png|19px]] Snagretpudding 08:18, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see how this will make Thirsty River any harder. I usually run that mission for guildies/allies. I add a level whatever ally, take 1 Monk, 1 BA Ranger or SF Nuker, 1 MM, 1 more SF nuker and the Illusion hench. Usually finished in under 15 minutes. WoH won't change that...uberpressure is ftw - Yellow Monkey (T/C) 10:21, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The reason is that the monk bosses can now use it on self (and it heals more), so they get an extra 200 health or so (don't know how high their HP is) every 4 seconds, which is basically an unstoppable 25 regen, and the monk allies with them get that too, both from them AND the boss. So basically if you're focusing on just 1 they're getting 400 health per 4 seconds or so if they're below half health, so 50 uncapped regen on them. And you're telling me that isn't more difficult to beat? --Gimmethegepgun 20:05, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

What a great buff. Nice job Anet. －Sora 12:18, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Me...soooo...happy. I've always loved this skill even though it kinda sucked, and eventualy was forced to switch to LoD to keep up with expected monk standards :P But this is such a good update, WoH is a viable elite again :)--Warior kronos 16:37, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't expect it to stay as it is, this is a evaluation period and even if it wasn't they wouldn't let such a powerful heal with that cost and recharge stay in game for long. --Sefre  [[Image:Sefresig.jpg|15px|]] Talk*Cont. 17:04, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * YAYYYY all i can say is YAYYYYY!!!! If they keep the heal self, this is going to make my life SO much easyer.. i never liked LoD, they just buffed me so much... so happy =D Hope it stays kinda like it is :D --195.194.252.133 23:53, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * whats everyone cheering about now this skill is totaly unbalanced as it is (i use it on my monk so no im not a monk hater) but seriously its way too strong either reurn healign to how it was or no self target its retarded how it is atm and if you can't do thirsty river you really need to get a better team and use some tactics.

I'm not big on high end pvp or popular guilds but I saw some team with 7 W/Mo's and a D/N beat The Spearmen in a gvg match. It was warrior isle and the wammos were taking the catapult hits much better than the other team could.....spearmen ended up losing. P A R A S I T I C 05:36, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
 * We got rolled. Just couldn't apply enough pressure to beat through the 7 WoH's. --Ruricu [[Image:SoD2.jpg|Shield of Deflection is purty!]] ( Talk • Contribs) 05:39, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It was interesting/fun to watch...I was surprised to see even one of them with HH. P A R A S I T I C 09:26, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This works with infuse so beastly! 67.162.10.70 22:42, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Thirsty River
Just finished it. Didn't spend over 2 min for any of the teams. My build:
 * Gwen: interrupter with Power Block, Cry of Frustration, Power Drain, Leech Signet, Inspired Enchantment, Power Spike
 * Livia: MM with Animate Flesh Golem and also serve as off-time battery via Blood Ritual
 * Jora: classic swordsman with Severe Artery and Gash. No elite.
 * Orian: Lv17 Mage hench
 * Alessia: Lv17 Healer hench
 * Me: Echo, Backfire, Empathy, Inspired Enchantment, Pain Inverter

For most of the end fights I use Echo to chain Backfire on the enemy Priest. Against the Ele boss and Monk boss I'd assign Gwen to shut the bosses down while the 5 of us chew through the priest. All in all the mission was very easy for me. The Word of Healing major buff didn't seem to make this mission significantly harder. -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 05:46, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Flesh Golem? Ewwwwwwww! --Blue.rellik 05:51, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I should have qualified that statement: It is harder for human teams. Heroes make that mission so easy that the difference isn't noticable anyways. But now you are pretty much forced to take some kind of shutdown that has a kind of short recharge. Before you could just blast through with pure offensive, but you need a bit more finesse now. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 05:56, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I did it with a monk I met in ToA looking for a group to do a quest (I helped him even though I've already done it). Afterwards because I was extremely bored, I ran him through the desert and helped him do Thirsty River and Elona Reach. Thirsty River wasn't any harder for me, I ran a hammer build going Backbreaker->crushing blow->mighty blow->heavy blow which always killed the priests with that chain before. When I ran it yesterday, they survived it but died soon after. For a somewhat decent team then it's easy. For the majority of guild wars players it is hell. --Blue.rellik 06:01, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I like changes like this alot because it almost forces you to change things up abit, rather than a using typical ele/monk/mm setup. It almost encourages using high damage melee classes...the way pve is setup right now, there's really not much reason to use melee classes for damage. P A R A S I T I C 09:24, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I recall that it was one of ANet's goals to make Mesmers more viable in PvE. I don't think this update was intended to further that significantly, but buffing healing and protection spells means that certain PvE mobs may require a dedicated shutdown character. It's an interesting side-effect. --[[Image:Rapid Fire.jpg|19px]]  Scottie_theNerd  (argue)  16:51, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
 * thats true   EDENIAL MESMERS TO PVE FTWWWWWW --Dunkoro 21:58, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't think so. All foes in PvE have a flat energy regen, and e-denial takes too long for a noticeable impact during combat. Interrupts > E-Denial, as far as PvE is concerned. --[[Image:Rapid Fire.jpg|19px]]  Scottie_theNerd  (argue)  03:14, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Doesn't matter now with the new update. The priests can't heal as well anymore. Cress Arvein 03:16, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I swear, they're tuned into this site for balancing things. - Anon
 * Not this site, but this site. Izzy (Issiah Cartwright, the guy in charge of skill balance) keeps an eye on many of the skill's talk pages there, and gets bombarded with suggestions, complaints, and insults on his talk page on a regular basis. :D --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> .cнаt^  03:30, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Debuff... sorta...
Well, the predicted debuff has come. But it wasn't much of a debuff. Does this mean they're more or less happy with the changes they previously made? Starting to look like the major boost from last week is pretty much permanent. --68.187.144.197 02:25, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with you, and am extremely exited that it's going to retain the new features aside from very minor heal loss. Serpent615 21:40 14 November, 2007

I didn't keep track, but how much healing power did they take from this skill? I know it wasn't too much Phalmatticus 04:48, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Like 20 is all.76.2.20.255 05:18, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it was 150 now it's 130. The lower side dropped from 25 to 5. If you really want to see how a skill has changed over time you can look at its template (eg Template:Word of Healing) hitting the history button there will show you all the changes made to the skill since it was added to the wiki. (Overkill yes but sometimes you want to know how much the numbers changed and it's not obvious) -Ezekiel 05:30, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Still way overpowered at only 5 cost and 3 recharge.--Sefre  Talk*Cont. 05:22, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah. I bumped into Mhenlo and boy oh boy was he wearing a shit-eating grin. ;)


 * Wow, not only did they tweak the heal amount within days of the buff, but he fixed Mhenlo too... nice to know Izzy reads the talk pages this closely. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> .cнаt^  08:53, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * There was a thread on guru with loads of player requesting Mhenlo use WoH in EotN --Blue.rellik 08:54, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Mhenlo's only tweaked because LoD got ripped apart by the nerf bat. --[[Image:Rapid Fire.jpg|19px]]  Scottie_theNerd  (argue)  09:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict)...And a shitload of complaints on LoD's talk page about how Mhenlo got nerfed in EotN. Izzy generally keeps tabs on skill talk pages after a buff/nerf, from what he's said so far. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  09:08, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Why can't we have 2 Mhenlo's, for those who want a cheap LoD hench, rather than keeping their HB monk busy with casting HP? --[[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (s)talkpage 09:11, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Two Mhenlos would destroy the space time continuum. Or make sexy love to each other. Mhenlo is too sexy for himself to resist. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  09:17, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Diffrent idea: Give him BOTH elites! --[[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (s)talkpage 09:21, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Meh. You can give LoD to Lina now.  Granted, it's not effective without a lot of points in Healing Prayers, but then again, it's no longer effective even with a lot of points in Healing Prayers, so why not?  :p  --68.187.144.197 04:05, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Noooooooo! I like ZB on her just fine thank you. Even SoR when she's in Proph is better than LoD now.
 * I'd like Empathic Removal or Signet of Removal tbh. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 07:40, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Can they hurry up and make RC target ally too =) 67.162.10.70 00:53, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * RC is fine as it is. --Macros 00:53, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah i know, but how cool would it be if it was target ally
 * I agree it would be awesome, but it wouldn't be for long because they'd just nerf it. --Macros 00:57, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Why do you think skills are nerfed,because people brag about how good they are on talk pages! &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.235.189.66 (contribs) 23:36, 22 December 2007.
 * Actually, I'd say its because if you can't get into a group with a certain build, that kinda sends up little red flags. --<font face="vivaldi" size="3"> Shadow crest   03:39, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Dude!
Dude! This is perhaps the strongest healing spell ingame! o_O O_o
 * And...? --[[Image:Rapid Fire.jpg|19px]]  Scottie_theNerd  (argue)  11:39, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Infuse Health --Blue.rellik 11:49, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Imbue Health is capped off at higher then this as well. Not the strongest heal in the game, but that's not counting the fact that it doesn't cost you health to use, and recharges a lot faster then ten seconds. :D --[[image:GEO-logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  06:51, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Infuse Health
If you use Infuse Health and then use this, will you get the 50% heal part of it?--69.153.200.68 03:33, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * No, not without taking some other damage first. --<font face="vivaldi" size="3">Shadowcrest 03:38, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Vamp weapon switching maybe?--<font color="Black">Sefre  [[Image:Sefresig.jpg|15px|]] Talk*Cont. 05:13, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * That was my thought, since I think this checks before divine favor. --<font face="vivaldi" size="3">Shadowcrest 05:15, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Word of Healing Icon
I started to think, does the icon of the skill means anything in any language? like a letter or something? The name of the skill is "Word of Healing", so it probably has a meaning... --Lefy Piyero 00:45, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
 * "Word" is part of monk nomenclature, much like Ox, Spider, Black, Golden, etc for Assassins, Word means that it has an additional effect when under 50% health (like Word Of Censure)--Yavanna 15:45, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * still, "Spider" refers to poison because many spiders are poisonous; Lotus refers to energy because the Lotus flower is associated with energy; but there's no simple connection like that for Word. I'm quite inclined to believe the Word being an important factor here is true, the icon could very well be a part of that.
 * Also, to correct you on one part, I believe Word doesn't mean below 50% health, but it applies to heals with additional conditional heals. Don't forget Words of Comfort, which is nearly the same as WoH, but provides the extra health to people with conditions. Censure's for below 33% as well, for that matter. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  22:56, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

History
Looked over at Conflagration. It states the history (beta version, anyone?) and thus I wondered why we actually delete the history here... --- -- (s)talkpage 19:30, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * To be completely fair, that's quite different from other skills; the fact that it, a Factions skill, was around during the Prophecies Beta, is worthy of Trivia. Something as simple as "this skill used to do so and so before it was buffed/nerfed so many weeks ago" shouldn't be Trivia, much less in the Notes section. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]]<font color="#237d00"> Jïörüjï Ðērākō.> <font color="#237d00">.cнаt^  19:49, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Related skills?
I dont understand why Zealous Benediction stands as a related skills. Sure they both heal but what else do they have in common, that they are monk spells? Or that they are elites? Or that they are stronger if the target is under 50% hp? I think thats a pretty weak reason, maybe we should list all other monk skills that heals? Just my opinion, but i really cant see what makes theese related, not even in the same attribute... 81.234.253.216 23:33, 18 February 2008 (UTC)