GuildWiki talk:Community expectations

For the sake of completion, the reservations I expressed to which the article refers can be found at the Community Portal's talk page.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 21:06, 27 May 2006 (CDT)

I have to say, this is an excellent document thus far on our expectations of the wiki. In many ways I'm surprised that it has not existed prior to now. Good work Stabber.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 20:37, 27 May 2006 (CDT)


 * The 'expectations' for User Pages seem to be quite loosely defined. Less expectations and more observations of the way User Pages have been used so far. Is it too much to say that User pages should be free to allow anything that is not deemed illegal? I would use the term 'inappropriate' but then we would need to define precisely what inappropriate actually meant.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 20:42, 27 May 2006 (CDT)


 * That reminds me, one thing worries me, and the user pages issue has brought it up. In O'Brien's post, he mentioned an issue with the link to Oblivion.  But what if a link to other games in competition with GW come up on user's user pages?  69.124.143.230 20:43, 27 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Oh, but otherwise, real great job on the article, Stabber. Are you sure you're not a soulless, tireless machine bent on world destruction bent on world destruction? Lazy Evan 20:44, 27 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Rainith has reverted a user's talk page before, due to offensive language. And there are cases when users have reverted the self-blanking of other users' talk pages because the former party wanted to discuss issues whose existence the latter party tried to coverup or something. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 21:09, 27 May 2006 (CDT)


 * It wasn't just offensive language, it was threats, which in written form are illegal in the US, where our server is. Just wanted to clear that up.  I am against posting of offensive language here, but I won't modify someone's user page solely for offensive language.  --Rainith 21:41, 27 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Great work Stabber. This looks good. Basically, I believe the User domain is a freestyle section for users to practice stuff, post info, boast, whatever, get their craziness discharged in that little space. The only time I would vote for any kind of limitations on User pages is if it affected the effectiveness of the wiki itself. i.e. we discover that 25% of the wiki's content is wasted on user pages and images, or a user puts up something on his page that can get the wiki sued or shut down (like racial slurs, porn or whatever). --Karlos 22:56, 27 May 2006 (CDT)


 * All my worries adressed on this page. I added a mention of information gathered of material not officially released such as the possible name of Campaign Three. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] 01:30, 28 May 2006 (CDT)

User Pages
I was unhappy with the user page section, as there weren't any actual expectations in it, so I've added what I think the 2 paragraphs are getting at: Sysops don't have the right to modify user pages unless there is a reason to do so, either because the user is displaying illegal material or because the user is displaying something that is unsuitable (i.e. pornography). Is this reasonable?  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 04:29, 28 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Yes, I think that sounds reasonable. -- Fenris [[Image:FenrisPaw.jpg]] 06:01, 28 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Um, I still think the "never" should be changed to "rarely", because there HAD been instances that occured. Saying "never" to me feels like lying about past incidents and sweeping them under the carpet, pretending they didn't happen.  Going to revert that wording if nobody objects. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 06:33, 28 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I agree, PanSola, if it has happened before we cannot say "never".


 * Xeeron reverted the expectation on the user pages section and I'm not sure why. I personally think it's important that we make it clear that User Pages are self-governed and only fall under the juristiction of sysops in special circumstances, such as if the content of a user's page undermines the wiki in some way, i.e. by displaying pornography or by threatening other users. Outside of these special situations I think that no one, including the host, should have any right to intervene in someone's personal area. Is this sentiment shared by the rest of the community?  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 12:23, 28 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Personally I would like there to be at least a grey area for insults, instead of allowing it. I believe personal insults are technically legal as long as they are not libels.  Minor snides and sarcasm can be tolerated, but heavy duty emotional insults (which are legal) should be kept in check.  Grey areas of course bring controversy and disagreements, but I want some level of Respect to be part of the community expectations.  As such, it isn't in there currently. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 12:48, 28 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I see what you mean PanSola, but I don't want to allow too much free reign for the sysops/host either. If someone is having a pretty bad day on Guild Wars is it ok to slag off ArenaNet? If ArenaNet were the host they might say that such insults fall into said grey area and they would like them removed. Is this acceptable?  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 12:59, 28 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I think we can define it such that grey area means exactly what it means, a region of ambiguity. Within the region of ambiguity, we discuss things to resolve it.  Ie, if it falls in the grey area then it should be under the jurisdiction of the Community.  Anet can bring up the issue, and everyone can discuss what to do with it.  So, it is acceptable for Anet to communicate that they would like such materials removed, but it would be up to the Community, to decide how to handle it.


 * *My* expectations of user pages and user talk pages are similar to Off-Topic sections of public forums. The Topic itself doesn't have to relate to guildwars, can be about your personal life, random musings, creative writing/drawing, rant about the government, etc.  Yet it remains moderated so that threads devolving into flamewars and such do get locked and/or deleted (translates to Reverted for wiki).  I expect netiquette of some level to still be observed and expected of user pages.  There are things that are legal to do but simply harms the community, to the point where moderate censorship is a necessary evil.  It is ok for someone to express their distaste for Republicans.  It is ok for someone else to express their distaste for Democrates.  It is ok for them to get into a very enthusastic debate/discussion/disagreement/argument about politics.  However, I do not think it is ok for them to throw heavy duty irrational emotional insults at each other, even if those are strictly legal, and even if they are on user pages or user talk pages.  Where to draw the line is the grea area, but I think the line should exist. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 13:15, 28 May 2006 (CDT)

The last time there was emotional insult slinging around here (the Stabber/F G conflict), I tried to nudge the community towards adopting WP:NPA. I think it is definitely needed. You are valuable is on its face incompatible with allowing users to sling personal insults at each other, whatever the reason. Once again I plead with the community to adopt policy along these lines. 155.207.113.227 13:11, 28 May 2006 (CDT) (my IP changes frequently, so don't trust it.)


 * I don't think it has gone the way of emotional insults yet in that particular conflict, but had it continued on, it definitely had potential to devolve into one. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 13:15, 28 May 2006 (CDT)


 * One thing is for certain, I think there should be some sort of protocol for content on the wiki that doesn't fall under the umbrellas of vandalism or illegal content but can still be classed as offensive.
 * I think using the term "grey area" has certain implications of ambiguity. It should be clear that content of an offensive nature will be considered by the community and, based on discussion, sysops may be involved in moderation.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 14:53, 28 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Well as the Community expectations stands right now it is clear that content of an offensive nature should NOT be considered by the community nor involve sysop moderation, as long as it is not breaking any laws and stays on user pages. The expectations is saying GuildWiki has no business interfering with user pages at all as long as no laws are broken, no matter how offensive the material.  That's the whole gist of the point that I want to raise.  I think of the "grey" in the context of the degree of offensiveness and whether actions will be taken or not.  Because it is not a clear line (needs discussion), I think of it as "grey", but if you have a better way to word the overall thing, I am all ears (-: -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 15:14, 28 May 2006 (CDT)

Just to clear that up, my edit of this part was unintentional, I do seems to have edited an old (instead of the recent) version, thus killing the inbetween change, my apologies for that. --Xeeron 17:07, 28 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I added the ncessary statement of being able to remove material that is "harmful to the wiki" but not necessarily "illegal." An example of that would be porn, porn is not illegal in the states, but a user putting porn on his page means that we'd have to put an age limit of 18 on our pages. This means Skuld will no longer be able to use the wiki. :) In addition, I would like the statement about something being harmful to the game of Guild Wars removed. It is not up to us to police and look after the game of Guild Wars. Such a statement is not only very subjective and hard to measure in nature, but also opens the door for all kinds of other policing. Our loyalty and concern lies with the wiki (which obviously loves the game of Guild Wars), but under no circumstances should any Admin intervention be allowed under the guise of doing what's best for the game. ANet will look after the game and if the wiki is doing something to harm that, you can be sure we'll hear about it. --Karlos 02:04, 29 May 2006 (CDT)


 * The word "harmful" only occurs once in the current version: where you put it. Does this mean you want you own statement removed, or do you need to explain yourself a little better? :) --Bishop (rap|con) 02:07, 29 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I think we're all pretty much agreed on what we would like to see happen: Illegal material is not allowed, material damaging to the wiki will be discussed, material damaging to the game is not our concern but will be discussed if ArenaNet request it. Is this correct? I have summarized considerably here, and I think we would need to be slightly more specific in our official wording.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 10:59, 29 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Yup. That's fine with me. --Karlos 11:08, 29 May 2006 (CDT)

Unrelated thread about the word "redact"
I have to look up what "redact" means in the directionary... -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 20:58, 27 May 2006 (CDT)


 * It's not a very commonly used word, but I believe it means to revise something. When has it happened before PanSola?  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 21:03, 27 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Redact means to hold back a portion of a text when it is released to the public. Not sure if that's what's meant here or not.  Perhaps the term should be "remove"? Beldin 22:14, 27 May 2006 (CDT)


 * It can also simply be a synonym for edit, which was my intended meaning. Feel free to change it to a more perspicuous word. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 22:16, 27 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I did not mean to make anyone iricund with my comment, sorry. I was merely replying to PanSola's own comment, which was probably tongue-in-cheek anyway.Beldin 23:22, 27 May 2006 (CDT)

Governance
While I do not dispute that the current wording is precisely how things work and how the community would expect them to continue working, I do wonder one thing: Why are we still flying the final word banner on the issue of promoting and demoting sysops, when we seem to pretty much agree that every other aspect of the wiki is better governed by consensus? Or, to put it differently, why not enable sysops to promote and demote sysops and govern that final frontier by policy and consensus as well? --Bishop (rap|con) 05:07, 28 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Only bureaucrats (technical term) can op or deop users. It's a restriction imposed by MediaWiki. I would generally discommend having too many bureaucrats in a wiki. &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 09:13, 28 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Hmm. Its actually imposed by the software, you say? I've never really been heavily involved in a wiki before so I didn't know. That seems contrary to how Mediawiki (and wiki in general) works. Odd. I would have thought it was possible to assign rights and priviledges seemlessly to all user classes. --Bishop (rap|con) 09:19, 28 May 2006 (CDT)


 * If you have a look at Wikipedia:Special:Listusers you'll find that, while they have a more hierarchical structure, it's still fairly flat. There is only 1 steward, less than 25 bureaucrats and many sysops. The sysops on wikipedia are, as far as I'm aware, unable to promote other users to sysop level.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 12:31, 28 May 2006 (CDT)
 * But bureaucrats can right? just checking my understanding. -User:PanSola (talk to the [[Image:follower of Lyssa.png]]) 12:41, 28 May 2006 (CDT)
 * Yeh, they're sysops who can promote basicly Skuld  12:45, 28 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I don't know how the whole system works by default, but as I understand it, on Wikipedia only Jimbo Wales can make new Bureaucrats and only Bureaucrats can make new sysops. Here we have a slightly simpler system, we have 1 Bureaucrat, Gravewit, and he is the only person who can make new sysops.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 13:02, 28 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Technically, Nunix is a Bureaucrat too. --Bishop (rap|con) 02:13, 29 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I agree that there should only be one person (maybe with a backup) to do the actual promotion, otherwise it could get kinda messy (see Guild Officers mess). That person himself can promote based on the decision of others and it does not have to be himself. I think Gravewit has done an admirable job in this regard, always opening the door when there is a need, letting the community throw out some names, picking the ones that are most favored and did not pull their names out and promoting them. --Karlos 02:10, 29 May 2006 (CDT)

It has just occured to me...
That this is GuildWiki, a wiki whose focus is to document the game. I don't actually give a Charr's 'hind about how much freedom User pages receive. If having Anet hosting GuildWiki can allow GuildWiki have better database and bandwidth, AND what we can write on the main article space (and main talk space) remain the same, then I don't care if the entire concept of User pages cease to exist.

Sure, I have quite a big user page, but it doesn't really HELP GuildWiki, it doesn't really help other users of GuildWiki when they come looking up information about the game, and it doesn't really help other GuildWiki contributors figure out how to contribute (when it has helped people, they could've gotten that help without any User page at all).

So yeah, if Anet will be willing to host GuildWiki, I for one will not care what kind of restrictions they put on the use of User pages at all. What is or isn't allowed in the main article space still matters to me though. -User:PanSola (talk to the ) 07:52, 29 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I feel likewise. I think people here spend way too much time on their user pages. I would be fine with a strict content restriction that says: stick to facts. A lot of GuildWiki's content should never make it to any official site; eg. builds, guides, etc. Mission walkthroughs are a gray area. If this means that Arena Net has to build their wiki from scratch, so be it. I am sure they can put together a community much faster than GuildWiki, and they can certainly prime the wiki with a lot of their own data pretty easily. 141.151.181.135 08:00, 29 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I disagree with you both. There are some articles that have started inside people's User spaces and become more useful over time, eventually growing into proper articles. Equally, user talk pages are regularly used for bringing up issues and making others aware of certain aspects of the wiki. On top of these the user pages have certainly added some light relief to the task of documenting Guild Wars.


 * I would say that while they have not been a crucial part of the development of the GuildWiki they have certainly been an important part. The thought of a GuildWiki without user pages makes me feel sad inside.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 11:07, 29 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I'm with Biro on this one. Pan, I understand where you're coming from, and I agree that the user pages are not the focal point of the wiki. But what I think you're forgetting (and anon completely misunderstanding) is that what makes this wiki work, and why it's interesting to ANet in the first place, is that it has a community of dedicated fans (of the game and of the wiki). And one of the things that keeps people coming back to this community, and thereby contributing to the wiki, is the feeling of "cameraderie" if you will. User pages are a part of that. And besides, poking fun at Gem just wouldn't be the same. --Bishop (rap|con) 11:16, 29 May 2006 (CDT)


 * Indeed, Skills by Campaign was once under my user space, and is now one of the most popular pages (#13 and rising!). &mdash; Stabber &#x270d; 11:11, 29 May 2006 (CDT)


 * I'm not an advocate for removing user pages or anything, but since I am the devil's advocate: The useful pages that started in user spaces could just as easily started elsewhere. It's mostly irrelevant whether they are user pages or anything else, and we happen to treat then in special ways that we could just as easily do other ways (we could say anything under /user or /sandbox is for testing and whatever people want -- instead, we use user pages because it's convienent to do so).  Anyway, this seems like an excessive amount of focus on user pages, since I don't think anyone has proposed removing them.  Merely adjusting the amount of privileges and freedoms they have. --JoDiamonds 13:16, 9 June 2006 (CDT)


 * The User pages and User domains are not the issue folks. This is an obstacle we conjured up and now we are so worked up about. Honestly, ANet will obviously want to portray themselves as patrons of free-speech and supporting the contributor's right sot hip and cool pages.
 * User pages are just about self expression. Where else can I put the skill description for Frustrating Was Karlos? I don't think the perceived benefit of starting new ideas is correct however. We could have always had a Temp domain where users can start experimntal projects. The articles would have a lifetime of (say) 3 months and after that period they are voted on whether to move to the main domain or stay or get deleted. --Karlos 14:22, 9 June 2006 (CDT)