Talk:Aftercast delay

Aftercast
Aftercast is 100%, absolutely, certainly, and exactly what everyone calls it. If you Google '"guild wars" aftercast' you'll see hits all over tons of GW sites. --Fyren 00:38, 4 October 2006 (CDT)


 * That's an argument for making a redirect. Do you have an argument for why "aftercast" is an appropriate label for it? --Karlos 01:00, 4 October 2006 (CDT)


 * What's the point of this? You reverted what I did. Fun stuff. I don't care if everyone on the net calls the skill inventory "skill list" and you know that. Aftercast is NOT a proper English word. The right expression is cool down. --Karlos 01:04, 4 October 2006 (CDT)


 * No, that's an argument for us to name it what (lets try bold this time) everyone else has in the absence of an official term. Did you not notice how many different editors had touched all those articles/made all the edits without even a discussion about what we should call the phenomena?  --Fyren 01:13, 4 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Again, the expression is NOT proper english, so I don't really care about the numbers you keep trying to indicate. Aftercast means a cast that happens after something. Just like aftershock is a shock that comes after an original shock. How about you google the word "aftercast" alone and see how many people in the world use it to mean something that happens AFTER a cast. Every usage not created by the "l337" generation is "a cast that happens after something." Skill cool down is NOT another cast. It's not a cast that happens after the original cast. Such a name IS wrong. Can you please stick to that discussion and tell me how the name is NOT wrong. I do not really care for the sheer multitude of people who would call "drop rates" something like "farmology." Drop rate is a word we made up, and if all the net called it "farmology" we would not have had the article under farmology. A redirect? Yes. The article name of something in game has to make sense english wise (especially one we are making up) as long as it's not something labeled in the game. --Karlos 01:25, 4 October 2006 (CDT)


 * There need be no reason beyond everyone calls it that. If everyone in the game called it farmology, then yes, we would call it farmology.  Calling it something other than aftercast would make it more confusing for people even if there was a redirect.  --Fyren 01:41, 4 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Then that is your stand, not what I believe we have been doing on this wiki. I believe that unless there is an in-game or official name for an item that we not only have to find the "popular" term, but also a "correct" term. As I said, aftercast is linguistically wrong. Just state in the "cool down" (or whatever other correct name article) that it's commonly referred to as "aftercast."
 * For a historical precedent, see talk:Collectable drop. --Karlos 01:51, 4 October 2006 (CDT)


 * If you ask someone "what do you call things collectors give you?" they'll say "uh..." and then guess "collector items?" There may be some shrugging and "I don't know" mumbling involved.  They're items collectors give you so that might be the first thing someone comes up with.  If you ask them "what do you call the delay after some skills in which you perform any action?" they'll answer "aftercast."  If you asked "what else is it called?" they'll say "nothing, it's aftercast."  In the collector case, there was no clear cut, singular answer.  For this there is.  Cool down, in particular, is a horrible choice as it's used (at least) in various Blizzard games to mean "recharge."  --Fyren 02:15, 4 October 2006 (CDT)


 * I second the 'if we called it farmology, it'd BE farmology' notion. English has MANY specialized subsets of words that rarely see use outside of a given context, which may not be listed in a dictionary of more conventional language.  Specialized words in a given scientific field, for example.
 * It is the very nature of English to grow and evolve, adding on new words to fit a specific need, often starting out used by a small group of people, and spreading into common usage. Can we make do with existing words?  Generally, yes, but English wouldn't be nearly as colourful as it is today without new innovations.
 * As for why 'aftercast'? I couldn't say for sure, but... when people say 'cool down' in Guild Wars, it tends to refer to a period of time where you can't do much because you either have no energy, or your skills are recharging.  Perhaps the specialized term, 'aftercast', evolved to differentiate itself from those types of cool-downs.  'Aftercast' generally refers to, "The period of time following the successful completion of a spell where the caster is unable to take any kind of action, including movement." And even if it had a meaning directly contrary to the independent meanings of the morphemes contained within, it wouldn't be the first time.  English is a convoluted, complicated language.  I like it that way, personally.
 * And in regards to whether or not this word is in common usage elsewhere, instead of googling 'aftercast', try 'aftercast delay'. You'll find it's mentioned a fair bit more in the context of games, and significantly more relevant.  Which is to say, if this wasn't simply created for Guild Wars, and is actually already an established term, then is there any reason to debate this further?
 * Just for the record, while on a less specialized wiki, such as the official, non-specific English one, I'd support using a more generalized term. But for one focused on the game itself, where the word is in such common usage, I favour the use of Aftercast.  However, I'm not exactly a frequent wiki-editor, preferring forums, so whatever happens, as long as the term is mentioned, and clearly explained, it's not something I'm going to complain about.  (Hope no one minds the use of alternating margin depth to distinguish paragraphs)Merengue 02:27, 4 October 2006 (CDT)
 * It should really be called "after-cast delay" or "after-cast animation" IMHO hadz 02:38, 4 October 2006 (CDT)


 * No, the precedent is very clear and one that makes sense, "Collector item" (which was the ONLY thing anyone ever used to refer to it) was misleading because it was not clear if it was the collectable drop or the collector reward just by looking at the word. Likewise, aftercast (if you don't now what that is) does NOT imply the delay after casting a spell in any normal usage of the english language I ever came across. It means the casting of somethingafter something else. It implies the wrong meaning. You guys are talking about the bazillion people who still call it aftercast and how they will manage to survive, well, just like the bazillion people who called collectable drops collector items.
 * "After-cast delay" or "Post-activation delay" is crystal clear on what it means I would be fine with that. It is the delay after casting/activation. I am not lobbying for cool down, cool down is what I use. Don't really care what WoW does with it. I am, however, lobbying against "aftercast" and I have yet to see any argument how "aftercast" in regular English usage would mean "the delay that follows a cast." I am sorry Hadz (or whoever embedded that comment about the English language), we are not Meriam-Webster, we're not going to document and formalize everyday onnovations in the English language. As it stands now, in the English I know, aftershock is NOT the delay after the shock, an afterburner is not the delay after burning, an afterthought is NOT the delay after the thought, ... etc. --Karlos 03:13, 4 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Just to add fuel to the fire, here are some results from some Google searches:
 * Aftercast Guild Wars results in 1,210 matches
 * "after cast" Guild Wars results in 829 matches
 * "cool down" Guild Wars results in 33,700 matches
 * Granted, I didn't evalluate the quality of the match results - although the first several on each search seemed to be used in the relevant context. If Google is going to be used as an argument for one name over the other - this seems to point towards "cool down" as the standard.
 * Although I usually use cool down myself, I'm used to hearing both used interchangeably within my guild (maybe cool down slightly more often, but not by much); so it doesn't matter to me which we use here. Just adding some material for everyone else to discuss.  --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 11:27, 4 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Barek, you might do better searching Guru, or some of the other forums. Both are used, aftercast meaning delay after skills, cooldown generally being a synonym for recharge or a dagger combo, Me/N RI/SB round or whatever, imo &mdash; Skuld 11:47, 4 October 2006 (CDT)
 * The start of the thread used Google as the search engine, which is the only reason I stayed with Google on my search counts. Like I said, I'm used to hearing both used interchangeably - usually for the post skill use delay. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 11:53, 4 October 2006 (CDT)

"Aftercast delay" with a redirect from aftercast, a disambiguation on cool down containing a pointer to this article, and a note in the article saying that it's typically shortened to simply aftercast then? Covers all the bases with the least amount of confusion, and conforms to a higher standard of quality, without having to omit anything either. Merengue 12:03, 4 October 2006 (CDT)

Older talk
Are you sure this is correct? see User:Murphyp/aftercast (talk)  08:24, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Yep. --Vindexus 08:24, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Also confirming. --68.142.14.19 08:38, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I've been told that some PBAoE's do not have 1.75s but that they have .75s. I have yet to verify this information so it's something that should be done. --Vindexus 08:40, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
 * I think star burst and the whirlwinds don't. Also probably not grasping earth or bed of coals.  Not certain on star burst.  Don't know about healing burst, heh.  --68.142.14.19 09:28, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
 * is it safe to include Murphyp's research here? he did a lot of these long ago --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 10:21, 24 July 2006 (CDT)

Using bed of coals (or whatever DoT) as a timer, you can get either two or three ticks of damage between a chained inferno/flame burst, but not one or four. So 2s < 3/4s + AC < 3s, meaning 5/4s < AC < 9/4s, at least for inferno or flame burst. I'd probably just call it 1.5s. Perhaps Fraps or a similar program could be used to capture at a certain framerate and then the number of (captured) frames could be counted. For example, use flame burst, then something slow enough to make the casting bar show, and then count the number of frames between the two. --68.142.14.19 10:58, 24 July 2006 (CDT)


 * i can confirm neither crystal wave nor aftershock have 1.75 second aftercast, i've chained both these skills in one (Dragon's Stomp) knockdown. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 11:11, 24 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I am absolutely certain aftershock has always had a long aftercast. I just tried the above test with crystal wave x2 and crystal wave plus aftershock.  Results are the same as with flame burst plus inferno.  --68.142.14.19 11:45, 24 July 2006 (CDT)


 * I can confirm that Aftershock has a 1.75s aftercast. --Vindexus 15:34, 24 July 2006 (CDT)


 * 1,75 is TOOOOO.......LONG......PBAoE FTL

Research
The reasearch needed tag is to confirm all types of skills:


 * Attacks
 * Warrior
 * Axe
 * Sword
 * Hammer
 * Bow


 * Glyphs
 * Preparations
 * Rituals
 * Ashes
 * Spirits


 * Shouts
 * Signets
 * Spells
 * Healing
 * AoE
 * PBAoE

once you confirm an aftercast time, please note it after the type above with your name. If necessary, you can add skill types. (talk) 08:47, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Stances
 * Traps

Why would we want to confirm aftercast for things that are not spells? From what I've heard and from personal experience, nothing but spells have it. At the very least you can be sure that things like shouts, attacks, and stances don't have aftercast.--Theonemephisto 13:34, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
 * The 1/2s activation bow attacks actually have an "aftercast." I don't know about the warrior ones.  --68.142.14.19 13:39, 24 July 2006 (CDT)
 * Okay, granted. One thing I am sure of is that attacks with no activation time don't have an aftercast, as they just activate on next attack.

After a bit of testing (attacking a suit of armor with the attack and seeing if I can move right after) with distracting blow and protector's strike (any other warrior attacks with activation times?) they don't have an aftercast. Also, you can chain both of them in 1 sec in any order.

Uh, I'm changing it slightly as research is still inconclusive. Do skills like Flare and Needling Shot have aftercast? From experience it seems that they do not. In fact, I think the general consensus is that it varies between skills...? Interrupt attacks certainly have an aftercast, as do Savage Slash, but not Protector's Strike. --Silk Weaker 09:27, 27 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I kind of re-rewrote it, but it's a lot more like the previous version. Reversal and interrupts do not have a longer aftercast than normal.  Savage slash has no aftercast (no attacks besides the ranger interrupts do, as I noted in the article).  You can do savage, protector's just as fast as you can do protector's, savage (which is to say, with a .5s gap beween them).  --Fyren 12:38, 27 September 2006 (CDT)