Talk:Way of the Assassin

Soooo basically every hit = critical? Kessel 11:25, 23 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Not quite... but quite alot of them, though.Ubermancer 21:47, 23 September 2006 (CDT)
 * There are going to be a lot of happy A/Ds out there.193.61.111.50 07:17, 25 September 2006 (CDT)

Going to be a lot of happy A/R's out there, especially with a few of the new bow attacks.

hmm lets say you go crazy... 16 CS/15 Weapon thats 16% from CS 37% from WotA and 7% from Critical Eye. Then another 22% (21.6) from weapon attribute. grand total = 82% Critical. --Midnight08 09:28, 26 September 2006 (CDT)
 * insane criticals...--Life Infusion 20:57, 28 September 2006 (CDT)
 * And if you're using daggers, throw in the double strike chance, and then the critical chance of those strikes...Apeiron 12:24, 1 December 2006 (CST)
 * It's better to go 16 weapon and 15 CS, because weapon mastery gives more crit hit percentage than CS itself. CS is merely a bonus.--62.235.147.89 05:58, 26 December 2006 (CST)
 * Be warned, I have some more math for insane crits- 16 Dagger mastery gives 23.2% chance to crit. 15 Critical strikes gives a 15% chance to crit. Way of the Assassin w/ an enchantment gives a 35% chance to crit. Critical Eye gives a 35% chance to crit. Overall, this is is 35+35+15+23.2=108.2% chance to critical [[Image:Order of the Vampire.jpg|20px]] Marin Bloodbane [[Image:Order of the Vampire.jpg|20px]] 07:18, 21 February 2007 (CST)
 * I highly doubt that Guild Wars adds critical chances like that. Statisically, it is much more likely that they multiply the inverses together to get the inverse of the correct chance of it. Ok, that sounds complicated, but it's real math, honest. Using your figures, this comes out to .65*.65*.85*.768=.28, approximately, or a 72% chance of criticals. Math is power.
 * It is also worth noting that it is actually better to invest the extra in critical strikes then dagger mastr because critical strikes raises the effectiveness of WotA and Critical Eye.--Devils Apprentice 09:34, 14 April 2007 (CDT)

I think Way of Perfection would go really well with it, being an enchantment and needing criticals--Blade 04:18, 3 October 2006 (CDT)

Or Sharpen Daggers, seeing as it can be maintained more easily...Or Assassin's Remedy, making you immune to every condition bar blind...Or Critical Defences (assume 1.33s attack speed and 75% crit chance, in 6 seconds you get off ~4 attacks, not counting dual hits, total chance of not getting acritical in that time is one in 256, I think, making this last a very long time)...There are a lot of good skills to go here. -Khoross 07:23, 4 October 2006 (CDT)

Boss near the NE end of Dejarin estate by the bridge that's straight east/west. --Fyren 21:25, 27 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Thank you, thank you, thank you for finding this boss!!! :D. Sir On The Edge 10:14, 29 October 2006 (CST)

lol @ the notes &mdash; Skuld 13:26, 23 November 2006 (CST)


 * Major Jeahr himself was one of the culprits. Spooky! d: &mdash; Skuld 04:41, 30 November 2006 (CST)

Killed the trivia. Besides that the Naruto reference was dumb, there are many Japanese words that use -dou/-道. --Fyren 04:29, 30 November 2006 (CST)

Ugh, almost every single martial art in Japan and some not have "do" at the end. --Silk Weaker 04:34, 30 November 2006 (CST)

Hehe, the Trivia was kinda funny... anyways, aside from the Naruto part, that note may be true. "Way of the Ninja" is an actual term, and contrary to what some people believe, is NOT a quote started in Naruto (Ninjas were actually around before Naruto was). The term is probably what the basis of the skill name is here, as Assassins are fundamentally Ninjas in GW.

Please note that I am in no way bashing or insulting Naruto, the popular anime series.

But also note that I am trying my best to bash or insult Naruto fans. Stupid fans. Jioruji Derako 02:35, 20 December 2006 (CST)


 * Hell yeah, don't bash Naruto, bash the fans of Naruto. Me, I'm not a fan of Naruto, I'm the fan of the artist who created Naruto. I buy the manga just to read his comments. How weird am I? About this skill, though - it's useless except to keep up Critical Defenses... in other words it's only useful for farming physical damage monsters. :( Skyreal 07:38, 28 December 2006 (CST)


 * not really, if you critical you gain energy, so this means you can afford to use HUGE energy cost skills if you want, a little like warriors endurance, but can be combined with critical eye-defenses-perfection...the list is almost endless.  :: S oqed Hozi ::  17:39, 7 January 2007 (CST)

This makes me want to actually make an assassin. AmericanVlad 15:36, 18 February 2007 (CST)

Stance killed the critical star
If this weren't a stance it might actually be useful. You need IAS to get the most of it, which you can't get without a stance (or be P or D prime). A/R won't interrupt crap without an IAS. A P/D will get about the same number of crits using Focused Anger and GftE with a scythe, and it will get IAS. There is just no reason to use this skill, any number of other elites will do more damage. If Anet wants this to be an elite on par with others, then it should be a 'skill' not a stance; even if that means reducing its crit rate increase.-- Windjammer 11:21, 19 February 2007 (CST)
 * A 33% IAS gives 50% more damage but critical hits (which takes the max damage multiplied by the square root of 2, ~1.414) give more than 41% more damage. I'm just saying that the loss of 33% IAS is not as bad as it sounds. - Schmerdro
 * Plus it synergises wonderfully with Critical Defenses, giving you defence, extra damage, bonus energy and activating in stance / while enchanted weapons for little cost. A lovely elite. RossMM 20:51, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Also there is a dervish enchantment which I forget the name of that increases attack speed, along with satisfying WotA's enchantment requirement and the high critical rating on scythes, it's a deadly combonation.--Devils Apprentice 09:47, 14 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Heart of Fury is the dervish enchant you're thinking about, but that's in the mysticism line... two primary attributes FTW!
 * Also note that increased crits>IAS if you are facing SS/Empathy etc. Also that this will trigger on a dagger chain, adding to that damage, whereas an IAS will just make the chain work faster. 144.32.128.113 06:51, 29 May 2007 (CDT)

Stacking
If you have +20% from this and +10% from the other (random numbers) is it +30%? -- Skax459 21:07, 29 May 2007 (CDT)
 * yep--Diddy Bow 09:05, 17 June 2007 (CDT)
 * You sure? Go test. I pretty sure it stacks multiplicatively, contrary to want the skill suggests. I think it takes the base chance to critical, 17 at 12 WM and multiplies it by 1.20 and then 1.10 to get a grand total of 22% chance to crit.
 * It Says "Additional Chance" therefore crit1 + crit2 = crit3

Enchantment?
What's a good enchantment to keep up with this skill? Mr. Fahrenheit  04:53, 10 July 2007 (CDT)

For two in PvE Critical Agility and Critical Defenses is a no brainer, they both feed each others requirements and they have very good abilites. With the latter, critical defenses would go well in PvP as it gives a brillant defense which can be kept indefinetely with little effort to maintain as you can use Wild Blow to give on-demand refesh if you are very unlucky which is quite good as it removes a stance and a sin shouldn't need adrenaline anyway. Flechette

Any Non assassin enchantments? Mr. Fahrenheit  04:53, 10 July 2007 (CDT)

It really depends on your class, however you shouldn't be using it as a /A from the fact the it feeds mainly off the critical strikes attribute. I suppose, though that a enchantment linked to your build is the best way to go. Flechette 04:59, 10 July 2007 (CDT)

Alright thanks Mr. Fahrenheit  03:14, 13 July 2007 (CDT)

Buff
Needs one, after all the nerfs to Sins. I'd say an IAS or additional damage on hit. ــѕт. мıкε  15:54, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

August 7th
Hoooooly crap. Sins have their own IAS...hoooooly crap. It's GOOD now. -  Ad Victoriam  01:22, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * and now you can have an extra two percent higher than max IAS at high levels... but yeah, this and flashing blades.... all i can say is yay! Roland Cyerni 01:40, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Time to dust off the old assassin and start messing around with Crit Defence/Agility and this just for kicks :P.  }{ Ipo™ }{  01:42, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It's Critical Agility for the lazy and the Heroes. I like it. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 02:00, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Not really for the lazy, but for Heroes and PvPers. This goes great with Crit Scythes or Conjures. ــѕт.  мıкε  02:03, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Also, the IAS can pass 33%. XD ــѕт.  мıкε  02:03, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Hello Wild Blow. --Xaerth 05:36, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Before it was Hello Shatter enchantment, Rip Enchantment, Chillblains, Strip enchant, disenchantment... 12 recharge anyway:
 * This skill is going to be reverted, its overpowered now --LaDoncella 12:25, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Very overpowered. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 12:29, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Although I dont want to believe it, it is an ineviatable fact. Its gonna be fun while it lasts, which wont be that long.  }{ Ipo™ }{  12:32, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It isn't any better than MD/DB for Daggers (especially in PvE, but it is very nice with Scythes. Also, cookie for me. =D ــѕт.  мıкε  15:06, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It is way better. Way... WAY better. Increased crit chance? Okay. IAS? Okay. Increased crit chance *and* IAS on the same stance with can be kept up permanently (barring stance strip) with no conditional requirements? That's overpowered. One of my favorite characters to play is my Assassin, who's used this in his build for ages, and the contribution of the IAS is just insane.


 * The only reason why this would ever stay is because they're trying to reverse the nerf to sudden burst that came around when they added after-cast to Shadow Step effects. But then, since spiking is what most Assassins tend to do, it creates the unspoken expectation that passing up such a good skill is folly. So, enjoy it while it lasts (which will be, like, a few days).GW-Dac 19:06, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Since this will be nerfed
I'd like to propose this in advance...

Full: For 20 seconds, while using daggers, you attack 5...29% faster and have a +5...29% chance to land a critical hit.

I love the idea of sins having their own IAS and this change would eliminate scythe abuse without completely removing the buff. --Aubee91 19:19, 8 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Assassins shouldn't have an IAS in their skill line. They're already a broken concept, don't further break it by feeding IAS, along with more damage (crits = dmges). --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  19:22, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that this will be nerfed, but I intend to explore it in the time allowed. Yes, an increased rate of critical hits increases damage, but when the base damage of the weapon is so low, it's not much of an increase.  I disagree that Assassins are a broken concept.  A single block, blind, miss, or interrupt destroys their chain.  And every other attack based class has an IAS in their own profession that is usable in PVP, most of which aren't elite.  However, making it only affect daggers, as was originally proposed, might be a prudent decision.  Lazuli  22:56, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Dervishes get Conjures+IAS+Elite, while A/Ds with WotA get IAS+Crits. I don't really think this needs to be nerfed. It won't be used in PvE, anyway, and its use will probably die down in a week or two. ــѕт.  мıкε  23:07, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I am rather torn on this skill. I typically use this in my staple crit sin build.  But with the buff also made to Flashing Blades, I don't know whether to go with WotA + Crit Defense or Flashing Blades + Crit Agil.  -- [[Image:Isk8.png]]   I~sk8   (T/C) 23:50, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Looking at it in game right now...daggers only clause in it now. bye bye scythers - [[Image:AdVictoriam1.PNG|19px]] Ad Victoriam  00:15, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Excellent! now maybe we'll see more sins actually using daggers instead of bows and scythes --MLegion 01:54, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I would like to see reverted to its original state ><--LaDoncella 02:26, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I would as well... or make it so only the IAS is affected by weapon type, and let the critical rate be as it was before. This skill was key in my Crit Bow Sin... consequentially, Flashing Blades is my new fav elite when using daggers. -- [[Image:Isk8.png]]   I~sk8   (T/C) 02:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm surprised it took so long for them to nerf it. And actually Lazuli, you just proved that they ARE a broken concept. Basically they either destroy their target outright without thinking at all, or they do absolutely nothing. Any class like that breaks any kind of PvP out there --Gimmethegepgun 03:28, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't understand why people try to argue that assassins are a "broken" concept by defining the actual word. Assassins are supposed to able to take out their target in a short amount of time. That is what they were designed to do. But now, after so many people complained and didn't want to spend the time to learn how to counter a spike, sins can rarely do what they were put in the game to do. I don't know about some people but whenever I play a caster and I see a sin in the opposing team I usually prepare myself for some sort of spike. It's not that hard. Like mentioned before, ONE blind/block/interrupt reduces their spiking ability to almost nil. So, either they take out their target or fail, just like an assassin should be. I also think they were meant to disrupt the flow of battle. What other purpose could they possibly serve. I guarantee you that most assassin spikes will usually only work once when run against a good team, because the second time around the spike is much more obvious. Now I realize that sinsplits are kind of annoying and that can lead to frustration, but I haven't seen a decent guild run a sinsplit in quite a while. So stop Q_Qing that assassins are a broken concept, especially now when every assassin's attack chain is pretty much the same. -- Vengeful
 * Great post Vengeful. And to the above users: NO TY I won't use these f*****g weak daggers with their 17 end damage and easily interruptable chains that leave me a sitting duck for 15 seconds; Back to wounding strike for me.

And Nerfed...
Could we find a happy medium, please? Lazuli 03:22, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * lawl lawl anet = epic fail cant even get 25% ias how stupid is that. why cant they jus make it a solid 25% and jus affect the crit chance. why cant izzy just think some things through before makin any update.ImpulseDestiny 03:51, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Solid 25% would make it effective without ranks in Critical Strikes. It should be ~25% at 13 Critical Strikes, though, imo. ــѕт.  мıкε  22:20, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Lets Start A Petition
I vote that WotA be changed too; If 'wielding daggers', you attack +5...29% (or 25%) faster. Otherwise, you have +5...29% chance to land a critical hit.
 * in some ways WotA is more a nerf than a buff at current state. But buff version was abused, to quote GW-Dac--'Increased crit chance? Okay. IAS? Okay. Increased crit chance *and* IAS on the same stance with can be kept up permanently (barring stance strip)... That's overpowered.' By making buffs weapon-based & exclusive of each-other, this version gives dagger-loving sin-players exactly what they want, without hurting non-dagger sin-players that were already using WotA before buff/nerf. Expert Dexterity already gives You attack 33% faster and you gain +2 to your Marksmanship attribute but that does not stop R/D from using it --Falconeye 11:30, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a pretty good idea to me, though it may bring about some BoA-ish problems --Gimmethegepgun 06:49, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That sounds better. As it is, Disrupting Accuracy sins are dead, which is a shame since it was one of my favorite builds for hassling, well, pretty much anyone, since any skills could be interrupted and Critical Defenses deterred melee chars. Captain Yimuru 12:17, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I think they wanted to nerf scythe sins, for some reason. [[Image:ShidoSig_moebius2.gif]] 13:52, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I wonder why... --Gimmethegepgun 14:14, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It would still be a useless Elite on anything that doesn't use Daggers because we've got Way of the Master. Also, 30% chance to crit is probably just as good as, if not better than, an additional 7% IAS, so you'd be nerfing the skill further. XD ــѕт.  мıкε  15:45, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I would definitely go along with that petition, when the update came out, wota became my instant favorite because of the stance IAS, it was so much more reliable than crit agility, now i dont even have an elite skill on my bar because nothing fits my build. if ANYTHINg they should make separate versions of these skills and change back the IAS, 21% attacking speed is just plain stupid, and i dont care who u are but if u have ever played a mellee class, nothing is worth it unless its 25%+
 * Critical Agility>WotA because it frees up your Elite, and Critical hits become less effective vs high armor in PvE. ــѕт.  мıкε  19:57, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Except Critical Agility is a PvE only skill, and thus, of no importance whatsoever.GW-Dac 06:05, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * What about: You attack +5...29% (or 25%) faster. If enchanted, you have +5...29% chance to land a critical hit.
 * ...That would be a buff to what the skill was BEFORE the change --Gimmethegepgun 01:13, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

At a loss.
I posted a couple days ago how I fully expected this skill to be nerfed, but I never dreamed A-Net would be this shortsighted. Toning down the IAS component was needed, but doing that and then hamstringing the skill to be solely "daggers onry" was unnecessary. (I don't get why people get their panties in a twist over Scythe sins, to be honest, but that's neither here nor there.)

Skill should be:

Stance - (20 seconds.) You have +5...29% chance to land a critical hit. While wielding daggers, you also attack +5...17% faster. GW-Dac 17:01, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * /signed. My Crit bow sin weeps. Metasynaptic 17:07, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * /signed. I have friends that were hurt by this... they want the old WotA back. --Falconeye
 * Critical Strikes stack multiplicatively, just use Way of the Master, tbh. ــѕт.  мıкε  17:36, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * There's no such thing as too much critical chance.
 * Especially if you're trying to interrupt. Captain Yimuru 10:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Take Dark Apostasy now instead. Enchant stripping interupts ftw.
 * Taking more than Way of the Master and Crit Eye is utter fail. The third skill would probably add, like, 5-8% chance to crit >.< Thus, even when the crits would work with any weapon, you're better off with WotM and Crit Eye. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  10:14, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

i think its good that they changed it. ppl had eached 98-100+% chance of crit. once u have more than100% chance of crit it gets ridiculous.
 * Critical hits don't stack like that, they stack multiplicatively. ــѕт.  мıкε  15:35, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The reason people got their panties in a knot were the 100+ damage quick attacks. Those quick attacks didn't need an IAS.--72.189.85.47 17:13, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

They should've kept it useable on any weapon, but only the attack speed boost on daggers.
 * No, Way of the Assassin was always bad, daggers or not. Now, it's decent for daggers. Just take Way of the Master if you want to Crit. ــѕт.  мıкε  02:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Alright lets do some maths here...Assume 15 CS (15%), 12 Mastery (17%) (any mastery type crit rate should be the same), Critical Eye (15%) @15, WotM (33%) @15.
 * 1-((1-.15(1))*(1-.17(1))*(1-.15(1))*(1-.33(1)))= ~60% (.5982)
 * Compared to the old 3 skill way WotA @15 (35%)...
 * 1-((1-.15(1))*(1-.17(1))*(1-.15(1))*(1-.33(1))*(1-.35(1)))= ~74% (.7388)
 * Unless I screwed the math horribly here or there is an as of yet undocumented Critical Hit % cap that looks like a 14% increase. Granted we aren't adding towards a 80-115% chance here like some folks assumed but 74>60.  98.219.48.111 21:56, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * 15 Critical Strikes is unreasonable, because the difference between 15 and 14 (13 if you're spending in another attribute) are negligible. Yes, obviously you gain a higher Critical hit rate, but it isn't worth the loss of your Elite skill, which, if you're a A/D Scythe Dervish, could go to Onslaught for an IAS/IMS (not maintainable, and only 25% increase) because IAS>Critical Strikes in terms of damage, energy return and spike ability, tbh. ــѕт.  мıкε  01:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The difference between 15CS and 13CS would be ~5% from the numbers in my previous figures. I can't argue apples to oranges semantics and skill selection/usage will greatly effect your damage output potential regardless of how high your IAS or Critical Hit % is.  There are a lot of variables to this and it all depends on how they are compared...a good mix of both IAS/CS% is a good thing and of course the sensible way to play GW but that wasn't what I was pointing out.  98.219.48.111 08:02, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

i will change the part of the note saying: "Works well with skills whose effects rely on critical hits, such as Critical Defenses and Way of Perfection. " since its been changed and no longer works at all with way of perfection. 81.235.241.186 15:25, 14 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Ofcourse it still works with WoPerf. Why wouldn't it >.> --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  15:29, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

ohh, jeez sorry, my bad. confused it with way of the master :( thanks for fixing it viper :) 81.235.241.186 16:15, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

+crit chance is always nice but...the fact it worked on any weapon made it worth the elite slot taking that away and giving it a utterly PATHETIC 21% IAS at 16 CS...come on that's horrible I might have thought about using it if it had 25-33% IAS at 16 CS but losing 75 health my elite slot (which would have been put to better use by a different elite anyways if I was using daggers) and gaining a awe inspiring 21% ias and a higher chance of being able to do a whole 30 dmg to that warrior..I'll pass

And I soooooo want a auto-sign feature >.> Hopeless Situations 21:07, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Just take Conjure Lightning and drop the Superior Rune, tbh. ــѕт.  мıкε  21:59, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Conjure is a good idea, except that it totally negates the out of profession weapon mastery crit. If you ran daggers you could just use Locusts Fury, @12 DM you would have a 63% chance of double striking.  Since attack speed is measured in average time between hits thats roughly equivalent to a 33% IAS buff (its actually around 31.5%).  Not to mention potential for damage output with a successful double strike on average dealing the same amount of damage as a critical hit (daggers; 12avg. 24crit.).  In PvE you could go even crazier with Critical Agility since double striking is not treated as an IAS buff mechanically its effect will stack with the 33% IAS bonus.  Basically WotA is shit now, other skills do the same thing better.  98.219.48.111 03:00, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Conjure is more viable now since the nerf. =/ Apparently, 33% IAS makes you get in 50% more attacks, so I'm not sure how to compare Way of the Assassin to Locust's Fury, although Locust's Fury is one of the shittiest Elites out there considering auto-attacking with Daggers is bad. In PvE, you run Moebius Strike+Death Blossom (which, somehow, seems to have the same average attack rate as Locust's Fury, mebbe because you need to recast LF every 30 seconds? I've actually tested this against the Master of Damage by recording my DPS with the Moebius Blossom Sin (with and without Strength of Honor) versus the Locust's Fury Sin (with and without Strength of Honor) which seemed both seemed to make SoH add ~1.7 times the stated amount when attacking (because of double strikes/dual attacks+Critical Agility)). Not to mention Locust's Fury relies on base damage. XD In PvP you run either Moebius+Death Blossom or Way of the Assassin. ــѕт.  мıкε  03:13, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure why you threw SoH in there...just testing Locusts Fury vs. WotA with the same set of max daggers and the same attribute point distribution should be a reasonable comparison between the two elites.
 * Set DM@12, CS@15, Master of Damage in the battle isles...
 * WotA (20%IAS + 35%Crit (mult 54%Crit)) = 4691/180sec = ~26DPS
 * LF (0%IAS + 50% Double (mult 29%Crit)) = 4955/180sec = ~28DPS
 * Granted there will be some variance because there is no certainty in when double or crits will kick in but this is WotA well on its way to the max IAS cap compared to Locusts at 0, at the maximum IAS cap 33% we get...
 * WotA = 5935/180 = ~33DPS
 * LF  = 7150/180 = ~40DPS
 * From there it would only get further biased in LF's favor with additional critical hit% addons like Critical Eye. We can certainly agree on one thing...its pretty sad when a class is reduced to a couple predictable (even if they are effective) dagger chains and a few half way decent elites. 98.219.48.111 04:23, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I tested with SoH to determine the difference between attack rates of Locust's Fury and Moebius Strike/Death Blossom, and they were pretty much the same (mind you, I had to reapply Locust's Fury every 30 seconds, and I didn't need to reapply anything for MD/DB). The problem with Locust's Fury is that the only way to benefit from it is through auto-attacking, while WotA speeds up your chains and thus allows you to kill faster. ــѕт.  мıкε  13:31, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * If you are doing it with dagger chains then sure 20%IAS wins, but that has more to do with the huge bonus damage associated with DM skills rather than sheer speed. If thats the case though you should still pass on WotA and run Moebius+DB which is going to give you a higher damage output than anything you can put behind WotA.  It should not be unreasonable to hit into the 50DPS range with that combo from all the bonus damage and no IAS buff at all provided you can keep the chain going.  21% IAS is a waste of your elite slot, this skill needs to be reworked before I consider it viable again. 98.219.48.111 13:40, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

That really depends on the build, tbh. I play Conjure Moebius and Conjure WotA builds in PvP, so the Moebius counterpart lacks IAS, and my chain for the WotA build is usually enough to kill:

Also, about the LF-WotA comparisons:



ــѕт. мıкε  13:49, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

So basically after all this we find out that LF > WotA and both fail horribly in comparison to elites you'ld actually use if you were going to use daggers and not auto-attack with 7-17 dmg weapons (spirit bond and ignore ftw)? :P


 * Basically, LF is only good in Cow Level . Wrong game. LF is only good in PvE cause you can spam Splinter Wep, maintain some stuff (SoH, Vig Spirit for defense) and take Crit Agility to cause massive pain. In PvP you're better off spiking (rare, tho...) or pressuring with Shat Assault or MS. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  16:55, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * LF USED to be useful for Fear Me spam, but then they nerfed it into oblivion, and is now completely and utterly useless --Gimmethegepgun 01:45, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Wasn't thinking straight earlier btw Spirit Bond = Shield of Absorbtion and yes..I forgot to sign..again :P Hopeless Situations 03:45, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * LF "Fear Me!" Sins should have been using MD/DB from the beginning, tbh. LF has and will always sucks. XD Moebius Srike>WotA>LF, imo. ــѕт.  мıкε  16:17, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Evidently you never faced or played one. Massive unstoppable aoe e-denial. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 16:28, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree, that's one build I'm glad doesn't exist anymore. Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|19px]] 16:41, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I understand how it worked, but a Moebius Strike/Death Blossom Sin with "Fear Me!" could have done the same, but with slightly less e-denial (the difference is minimal) but a shitload more of damage. ــѕт.  мıкε  17:14, 18 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, since LF procs Barbs, MoP ad SoH a fuckton more LF was better than MS/DB for "FM!" spamming. Anyhow, I don't see why they got nerfed actually. Diversion them and you have a 90% chance to get their FM!, they had nothing on Blind (no Assas Remedy &rarr; no attack skills), and had nothing against blocking (afaik).
 * MS/DB is severely overrated imo ... Oh, and the e-denial would be a lot different. LF doesn't need a single hit Offhand to start the chain, and hits a lot more often. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  17:20, 18 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Except an IAS doesn't work all that great with DB/MS because it makes the chain so fast that MS isn't recharged by the time you're there any more. And also DB/MS isn't exactly the most reliable to keep energy up, especially when you have to work in an IAS spam as well. Just using LF/Flurry with Fear Me makes you able to have 2-3 more free slots that could be used for something else, like maybe Wild Blow and disrupting dagger or something. I also ran some tests for damage, consisting of DB/MS vs LF/Flurry. Tested both with just that, with Zealous/Mastery daggers on the DB one and Vampiric/Enchanting on the LF one, and in 1 test for each had the same equipment but included a 16 Smiting SoH and Winnowing. The attributes were set at 16 Dagger/15 Crit.






 * Note that with SoH and Winnowing on, which is probably expected due to the sheer number of attacks, the difference in damage is insignificant between the 2, and is quite superior to DB/MS without them. Without either, though LF/Flurry would probably have some kind of damage increase from someone else, the damage difference is large, but with JUST the IAS (no double strikes) it would be hitting at the same rate (3 hits per 2.66 seconds), except that you have a 2 in 3 chance in hitting twice each attack cycle, meaning an average of 5 hits per 2.66 seconds, making you use Fear Me! a LOT more often, which is the entire point --Gimmethegepgun 18:11, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * And then, since I had forgotten about Necromancers, just for fun I tossed in Barbs and OotV. It was epic. --Gimmethegepgun 18:24, 18 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Ah, I know how to put it: That amount of damage is like getting hit by Spectral Agony without any infused armor pieces. Except it hurts even more. --Gimmethegepgun 20:33, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

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 * See, LF isn't bad. You're just bad :> --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  18:54, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I still diseagree because in PvP, you can't KD-Lock, and you lose a lot of utilities attack skills would offer (cripple, KD, Assassin's Remedy, triggering Anthems, etc.) and in PvE, you don't deal any AoE damage. Also, if you want big domages, play a P/W with Focused Anger, Frenzy+Rush, Sun and Moon Slash and have an ally buff you with Dark Fury. It's like double striking for every attack. XD ــѕт.  мıкε  21:59, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * this whole discussion fails...--Relyk 01:42, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I found it amusing. Also I cry because my poor LF/FM! spam got nerfed. It was so much fun to kill monks with autoattacks because they had 0 energy. [[Image:ShidoSig_moebius2.gif]] 03:35, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * And seriously, anyone bitching about it (though it WAS extremely powerful) should've remembered to pack a +energy set and Diversion --Gimmethegepgun 06:52, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually: Caltrops, Iron Palm. AoE? Splinter Weapon (it's still a teamgame). --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]-- (s)talkpage  09:48, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I ran the build a few times, and if I recall correctly, there was an attack chain included in it; hitting a dagger attack out of order totally negates Diversion. And a +e set would only help if you can escape the assassin; otherwise, your energy's going to be gone again in a few seconds regardless. The reason LF/FM was such a potent threat is because monks didn't just have to keep them from hitting; they had to keep away from them. It was incredibly stressful. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 09:54, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * That's just about the build I always used. Crit Eye to really spam Caltrops for lots of Crippled when running 3 of 'em :P You could fit an attack chain in, but it renders LF rather useless, since it doesn't work with your attack chain >.< And you loose the Nearby-ranged Crippled, or anti-block. When you spam FM! every second, you have to be very lucky to not proc Diversion, really. --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]]--  (s)talkpage  10:01, 19 August 2008 (UTC)