User talk:876578

Me/N Signet of Midnight
Heya there, moving articles is simple, see the tabs at the top (edit, history, move, and watch) just use the watch one :) However for the Me/N Signet of Midnight to be "moved" into the unfavored builds category, the articles name isn't changed (which is what a move does), the category Category:Unfavored builds just needs to be added. Hope that helps --Xasxas256 22:15, 14 June 2006 (CDT)

The Classification of a "noob"
By the term noob, I mean a player that has had enough time to learn the game so that they don't make the newbie mistakes, but still make those mistakes. Newbies refer to a new player to the game. Subtle but extremely important difference. These definitions can be more specific and rigorous, but that's for another article.

If your any of your PvE characters have passed the Crystal Desert or Nahpui Quarter, and one or more of the follow apply to you, you are a noob. No question about it. Currently, this list pertains only to the PvE enviroment.


 * Having no ressurection skill, or using Vengeance and/or Unyielding Aura
 * Having less than 435 base HP
 * W/Mo with Healing Breeze, Mending, or more than 3 Healing Prayers
 * A Warrior with less than 8 Tactics
 * A Warrior with less than 530 base HP
 * An Assassin with no escape skill (ie, Return, Aura of Displacement)
 * A Ranger with less than 13 Expertise, or no other form of energy management (ie, Marksman's Wager, Melandru's Shot)
 * A Ranger using Ignite Arrows
 * An Ele without dual attunement (ie, Fire Attunement & Elemental Attunement).
 * Ether Prism = Best E-management possible. ~10-11 Pips(uncapped) regen mostly unconditional. Rivals SR


 * An Ele using Flare
 * A Healing Monk with Healing Breeze, Vigorous Spirit, Mending, or Divine Boon
 * A Smiter with Balthazar's Aura or Zealot's Fire
 * Mo/W used for anything else besides solo farming
 * A Necro with less than 6 Soul Reaping
 * A Minion Master with less than 8 Soul Reaping
 * A Ritualist with more than 3 Channeling Magic skills
 * A Mesmer with less than 8 Fast Casting

Classification Discussion

 * A Warrior with 7 or less tactics: I run 16/13 wep/str sometimes, and sometimes with spare points WY, is this bad?
 * A Warrior with less than 530 base HP: endure works wonders ><
 * A Ranger with less than 13 expertise, or no other form of energy management (Marksman's Wager, Melandru's Shot, etc): not all builds
 * An Ele without dual attunement (Fire Attunement & Elemental Attunement): Seriously, not everyone is a fire nuker


 * So if you're playing a mesmer, right off the bat, you're not a noob, unless shown otherwise.: heh, complete bias

Probably being pedantic but.. &mdash; Skuld 13:56, 26 July 2006 (CDT)


 * 16/13 weap/str leaves you with 75 less HP, a minor increase in weapon damage, and only dolyak+endure/defy pain as tanking options. It's better to avoid damage altogether than just reduce it. Plus, 16/13 is for PvP.
 * Endure alone doesn't allow you to "solo" tank. Only with defy will it keep your HP up. The ideal tank needs minimal healing from a monk. The monk should protect the weak, not the one with 100+ armor.
 * Without 13 expertise or such, you'll either be a ranger without energy, or a ranger that pokes monsters occasionally
 * An ele better be a fire nuker or they're not going to get into many groups. Dual attunement works for Air and Water as well. But then again, only truly organized groups (aka not PUGs) make the best use of Earth and Water eles. (Earth eles should use Glyph of Energy, but that's beside the point here)
 * If you're willing to try and stay with the mesmer, you're already above the typical whammo

"Mmm, yes, I also agree, shallow and pedantic." --Peter Griffin

I'm sure 80% of today's youth did not know pedantic was a word until Family Guy came along. --8765 17:56, 26 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Endure - i meant if you were getting low with no healing coming.
 * Expertise - no wai!!
 * Mesmer - have you ever taking a mesmer build with 0 attributes in everything? god the idea off someone else, took 0 attribute skills and got complimenting on my mesmerising :)


 * Never watched family guy &mdash; Skuld 14:20, 28 July 2006 (CDT)


 * Unless you took a 600 dmg lightning orb spike from a mob + a boss, you shouldn't need endure to cover a lack of heal because you should be able to survive a long time without any healing. Stances and +armor buffs are key. Sure endure is a 1-skill life saver, but you shouldn't be getting into life-threatening situations often.
 * So if you're "no wai" means an agreement with the necessity of 13+ expertise, then you're claiming the builds you mentioned (without any direct references or examples) are mostly flawed. (Most of the vetted rng builds, imo, suck. For PvE anyways)
 * You might as well be a W/Me if you're going 0 attribute build. Although you lack alot of energy, the extra armor should allow you to survive long enough. Either way, you're still way below par with 0 attributes.

Either just you, or all of the UK has led a shelter life by not watching Family Guy. --8765 12:59, 31 July 2006 (CDT)


 * this truly dissatisfies me. i have seen many people tear down W/Mo's before, and i have heard plenty of people voice they're opinions on expertise, mesmers, and fire eles.  but i am completely siding with skuld on this one. 8765, these are all opinions that you have, but they are simply wrong.  Noob is a harsh word, and i would never call someone that.  It is the players choice as to what skills he uses.  it is the players choice as to what his attributes are set at.  This article is purely annoying, and i find it quite offensive.  I'm sure others will too.  Do not hesitate to respond.  you are clearly a person who is fond of voicing they're oppinions.


 * Another thing: I have never watch family guy either. --Fiznuckin Biznitch 01:16, 6 August 2006 (CDT)
 * this is a user page, oppinions are expected. have a nice day ;) --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 01:18, 6 August 2006 (CDT)

--8765 11:04, 6 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Anyone can make choice and decisions on how they run their character. However, as far as effectiveness goes, there is unwritten standards, much like anything else in the world, that if you don't meet, you're simply not as effective or useless as you could be. The world is very competitive, not just in video games. Granted, to an extent, it's pointless to be competitive in video games other than for recognition.
 * Also, this article only applies for PvE. PvP is completely different, and requires its own article. However, if everyone actually followed some standard, PvE would be so easy, that eventually no one would actually play it. The fact is PvE is easy, and people are getting by by running charatcer builds that are just plain terrible. The goal of this is to make PvE far more challenging. So much more challenging, that around 60% of the current players and groups, simply would not get past the first few areas of the game.
 * So comes the player's choice of skills and attributes. Sure you can run anything you want, that's because most of it works because PvE is too easy. The player's choice wouldn't be called wrong, but rather a poor decision. And upon repeat of this poor decision, they're called a noob.
 * On the term "noob," such a term is already abused so much, it's lost much of its intented meaning. But as far as this article goes, if a newbie (aka a new player to the game) makes one the listed mistakes, hopefully they'll learn from it. If not, then they would be coined as a noob. There are also further degrees of "noob," but that's not exactly relevent to this article.
 * "8765, these are all opinions that you have, but they are simply wrong" Since when can opinion be wrong? They can be simple, but never wrong.
 * If I keep mentioning Family Guy, perhaps it would be wise to find out what Family Guy is.

Here's some thoughts: &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 02:13, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Vengeance and Unyielding Aura are quite useful for getting a caster back up with his entire energy pool or a warrior back up with all of his health. If you seriously want a res you can use effectively in battle, Vengeance is pretty much the best thing out there. Better than Res Signet. I've turned quite a few end-game PVE battles around with Vengeance. The key is to have enough room in your bar for a second res of the more conventional variety. (This works especially well for Barragers and Battery or Orders necro, since the core of these builds is only 2-3 skills.) Unyielding Aura is also a decent skill for helping an unlucky party member burn off DP in a high-risk high-XP area. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 02:13, 30 August 2006 (CDT)
 * 435 hp: agreed, with exceptions. Sinking it down to 250 or less is quite useful for, say, an Orders necro in Tombs.
 * W/Mo: agreed, pretty much.
 * Warrior with less than 8 Tactics: lots of secondaries give you abilities similar to what you get out of Tactics. A W/R with Wilderness Survival can easily use his Ranger skills for healing and defense.
 * Warrior with less than 530 hp: disagreed. Armor matters a lot more than hp when you're trying to soak hits. Even in PVE, warriors don't just exist to tank. I've gotten away with using a -75 hp rune even in the Deep, where all you're doing is tanking (that's not really a matter of necessity as much as a matter of being too lazy to buy a new hat).
 * Ele without dual attunements: disagreed. Most eles don't use dual attunements. You don't need to. I actually have never been impressed by an ele that used dual attunements.
 * Vigorous Spirit is a great heal-over-time effect. Absolutely wonderful on AE warriors or Barragers, especially. The fire-and-forget factor is especially nice for mission NPCs.


 * Unyielding Aura is simply a waste of an elite. Instead of ressing a dead teammate with unyielding, you should have invested in a better elite to prevent their death. Vengeance, on the other hand, is essentially a 1-time per battle shot at ressing someone. Oh look, here comes a shatter enchantment... If you happen to have a Me/Mo on your team, a hard & fast res beats vengeance. Besides, you should have a good mesmer whereever you go; makes a monk's day much easier.
 * Your HP better be really high, or really low (55 orders necros and/or AotL sac necros come to mind)
 * The only solid defense out of the Wilderness Survival line is Dryder's Defense, which doesn't even last long at all. Healing Spring is too risky, and that leaves 8 attribute pts in WS for just Troll Unguent. That's a waste. Shield Stance+Heal Sig = self-substaining and much more effective defense.
 * Armor too is pointless if you don't have the HP to back it up. Plus, many mobs deal armor-ignoring dmg anyways. The reason you got away in the Deep with -75 HP is because you got 3 or more monks backing you up, but at the same time, they're wasting time healing you more frequently than necessary. +2 more attribute pts is generally not worth 75HP.
 * Depends, If you are group with a good monk, only 1 of them can save your life. +100HP is pointless when you don't have the skill to back it up -- [[Image:Ritualist-icon-small.png]] Cwingnam2000 17:40, 3 September 2006 (CDT)
 * +100HP means you live that much longer and that much more leeway for your monk to catch you. If you have a really good tanking build, you won't be need back-up all that often.
 * Logic? If you got a really good tanking build, you don't need to be backed-up that often as well, and the back it up on my previous statementment isn't about someone else to back you up. +100HP is pointless if you can't tank is what i mean, Tank is not only about HP, sure, that -75 HP is deadly if you can't tank, but +100HP won't save you as well. -- [[Image:Ritualist-icon-small.png]] Cwingnam2000 18:17, 3 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Now you're deviating from the point. Good tanking requires a balanced mixed of armor, HP, and skills. However, having less HP puts more reliance on the other 2, thus making an overall weaker build. Same goes vice versa. However, there's only a few ways to adjust your HP, but there's countless methods to armor and skills.
 * 160+ armor is enough to cancel out most damage in the Deep. I agree that an hp reduction makes degen a bit more troublesome, but most deaths I've experience in the Deep have been related to being spiked for way, way more damage than my hp. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 14:51, 10 September 2006 (CDT)


 * An ele without dual attunements is an ele that dishes out their spell combo, and then stops to regain energy. Smart dual attune eles can cast constantly. Reducing spell costs to 20% is even better than high expertise (of course those 2 work differently on skills/spells). And, avoiding enchantment removal is pretty easy when you have the freedom of the backline positions. You've never been impressed by dual attune eles because the dual attune ele was picking up the slack from the non-dual attune ele, thus making both of them appear poor overall.
 * Dual Attune is good, but there are other option to regain energy. -- [[Image:Ritualist-icon-small.png]] Cwingnam2000 17:40, 3 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Ether Prodigy provides a quick boost of energy, but in the long run, exhaustion is going to get you. Energy Boon, similarly, exhaustion will get you. Second Wind, you'll become very limited in what builds you can run without conflicting with Second Wind. Ether Renewal simply sucks, thanks to E/Mo smiters in CA/TA; you need a bahmillion enchants on you, thus you won't have much offense, or anything else for that matter.
 * You can use secondary class skill, anyway, Dual Attunements is easy to be stripped off easily even if you stay at the backline, unless you are not dealing damage, if you can cast spell to deal damage on the mob, they can also use spell to strip enchantment off you. -- [[Image:Ritualist-icon-small.png]] Cwingnam2000 18:17, 3 September 2006 (CDT)
 * So what secondary class skills provides as much as energy as dual attunements without the risk of enchantment stripping?
 * Mesmer's great, especially because it lets you manage energy without using an elite for it.
 * The thing about Dual Attunements is that it only gives you energy management for your Elementalist spells, and only for one element, at the cost of 1/4 of your bar. This makes it only good for fire nukers, pretty much. And a Renewal nuker can throw down the heavier spells harder than a Dual Attunement nuker can, at the cost of less filler in between the big nukes. So it's definitely not the ultimate one-solution-for-everything build. &mdash; 130.58 (talk) 14:51, 10 September 2006 (CDT)
 * So what do you use in /Me? E tap, for what net 10 energy? Power Drain, dependant on the enemy, which don't always spam spells (and are probably dead by they time you need energy)? Drain Enchant, also enemy-dependant? Spirit of Failure, ok if you have it spammed on the wars, but it alone won't fuel all your spells (you need someone to blind the wars, but if your team can do that effectively, you're better off anyways)?
 * Renewal nukers fire everything they have in 1 volley, and that's it for them. Dual attunement allows you to be constantly casting spells, and casting that chain for a long time (probably forever too). --8765 02:05, 19 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Vigorous Spirit does 1 of 2 things at any point in time. 1st is healing you when you already have full HP. 2nd is a pathetic attempt at healing you when you've been spiked, and down 150+ HP.
 * No healing that is cast from a Warrior can withstand a proper spike. VS is very good healing on a warrior with Area damage such as, Hundred blade, cyclone axe, triple chop. -- [[Image:Ritualist-icon-small.png]] Cwingnam2000 17:36, 3 September 2006 (CDT)
 * "W/Mo with Healing Breeze, Mending, or more than 3 Healing Prayers" and "A Healing Monk with Healing Breeze, Vigorous Spirit, Mending, or Divine Boon". You are a tank, not a healer. You soak up dmg, your teammate monk fixes up the dmg. Preventing damage is always more important than healing the damage. Your job as a tank in the team is to absorb as much as possible for your team, by getting and holding as much aggro as possible. The monk's job is to catch whatever aggro you missed, and to help you, the tank, in case you get overwhelmed by what you aggro'ed. Using inappropiate skills can cause you to do poorly at your job.
 * Typical Holy Trinity Concept, The whole game is not resolve around 3 classes, or 24 skills -- [[Image:Ritualist-icon-small.png]] Cwingnam2000 18:17, 3 September 2006 (CDT)
 * You're again missing the point of this article. "Currently, this list pertains only to the PvE enviroment." PvE is not the "whole game." PvE is so easy that you can beat it and beat it effectively with just 3 classes. All missions can be done with 1-2 tanks, 3 monks, 3-4 nukers. If PvE was actually difficult, this wouldn't be the case. Of course you could run more advanced builds than I-Hulk-I-Smash builds, but what's the point when those Hulk Smash builds can be arranged faster, to an extent PUG friendly, and in the end, gets the same job done?

--8765 21:14, 3 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Having no resurrection skill can be completely justifyable - my monk rarely brings one in PvE(I do notify my team members of this!)
 * A W/Mo can effectively use Mending on a monk, and thus keep aggro away from the monk.
 * A warrior does not always need to tank. 16/13 is very useful in PvE as well, and the increased attributes do a lot more damage(especially with an axe!)
 * A critical barrager needs no escape skill
 * 13 expertise is definitely NOT a prequisite for a ranger.. Perhaps 8, but even then it depends on the skills you bring.
 * Lots of fire-weak opponents, dual shot and flurry are something you have not experienced I guess :)
 * So.. Even Echo/Renewal nuking is noobish to you? Also, Factions did offer a nice amount of new energy management skills..
 * Vigorous Spirit is indeed a cheap, long-lasting continuous heal that is grossly underestimated.
 * Glyph of lesser energy + Balthasars Aura is a good option.
 * Mo/W is good to be when the assassins are everywhere.. Immunity to critical hits is cool :-)
 * Less than 6 SR or 8 FC? Sure that can work. Depending on your build, it can be a very wise choice to invest your attribute points elsewhere.
 * Want me to make you a nice Channeling/Communing build? It'll be 16/13/4 if you don't mind..

I can come up with a hundred more if you want me to ;) -- Ifer (t/c) 13:55, 30 September 2006 (CDT)

--8765 17:30, 30 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Monks can heal themselves while running from the battle, and if you successfully escape, your team is doomed anyways. Even before that, if you get into such a situation, you might as well /resign.
 * Wars attain aggro by good team positioning. If you, as a war, can hold on the enemy war aggro, your monk only has to deal with spellcaster dmg, and mending is certainly not going to save them. Shatter enchant, there goes 100 HP on your monk.
 * This goes back to the "Typical Holy Trinity Concept" that Cwingnam2000 brought up. Tank nuke heal. Wars can't nuke, btw.
 * A crit barrager is not an assassin so-to-say. It's character trying to do someone else's job. Besides, barrage is a sucky skill compared to 1 fireball.
 * 13/14 expertise = near infinite energy with 10 energy skill builds, which rng's have a lot of.
 * Ignite arrows have huge scattering, thus after the first shot or two, you'll be hitting at best 2 at a time.
 * Echo nuking is a one-shot nuke. And, Auspicious Inchantation would only make you a 2-shot nuke. So what other new e-management skills did faction introduce that are effective for nukers?
 * Vig Spirit, re-read that epic paragraph above your post.
 * Balth's Aura is crap. Nerfed over & over and Mr. AoE Scatter.
 * This isn't PvP, which is probably what you're thinking with Balanced Stance vs. sins. Plus, mob sins are hardly dangerous, except for Oni (which kill you by sheer lv difference and increased innate dmg) and some bosses.
 * SR is truly infinite energy in PvE. The higher the better. High FC allows you to cram every skill you have and have the mobs either hexed out or otherwise made their day real shitty. And, even if you're a pure interupt mesmer, Power Return + Power Leak is not as counter-productive as it may seem.
 * Channeling Magic is just a weaker air spiker with slightly more AoE skills. 16/13 is ok on casters, as such a sign says you're just looking for things to critize without justification. And even if you come up with a hundred more channeling builds, 1 regular air spiker is still more effective. And, even 1 nuker is more effective than both of them.


 * In addition to all the previous points made by people.....
 * Vigorous Spirit - In addition to providing a nice amount of healing over time, forms a nice base for spamming Healing light and boosts Dwayna's kiss nicely.
 * Expertise - For 10 energy skills there is no difference between 12 and 13 expertise.
 * Dual Attunments - Even before NF my Ele didn't use ele spells but mes hex's so what would be the point?
 * My MM uses 3 Sup runes. That nicely reduces the sacrifice and allows 2xBotM before I heal area. Given I set my army off them kite back, the extra attention for the low HP is not an issue in most situations and any flak I do take is mitigated by Dark bond.
 * --JP 01:18, 28 October 2006 (CDT)