Talk:Never Rampage Alone

This requires a pet to use. I'm not exactly a keen beastmaster, but can anyone think of a sensible use for this? It takes up 3 slots on your skill bar (charm and comfort as well as itself), drains most of your energy and provides a minor IAS. Compare with critical agility, which (at the expense of sin secondary) provides a +33% IAS and +25 armor with 50% downtime (at max sunspear rank).--Enigma
 * Seems like it's a more expensive, though better version of, Tiger's Fury/Bestial Fury.Perrsun 20:38, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * In a way Perrsun it is, but Enigma is also right and if you compare it to the Assassin's Sunspear skill, which is the closest to the Rangers (Defence buff and IAS) the ranger skill is *5* times more expensive to cast (Expertise not inclusive), infinitely more expensive to maintain, and essentially takes up 3 skillbar slots.


 * I'm really irked with this one myself and hope either the other sunspear skills are brought in line with this one (ie. making them only useful in 1 or 2 viable build combinations and wasteful) or this one gets a buff up to make it as useable as the others.--85.62.18.3 05:59, 16 June 2007 (CDT)

Hmmmmmm
I wonder what skill this is based off *wink wink* --Blue.rellik 20:20, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Rampage as One, obviously --&raquo; Life Infusion &laquo;T&raquo; 20:26, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Notice the *wink wink*? [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] frvwfr2  (talk)(contributions) 20:28, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * It's also a tribute to the Sunspear slogan, "Never Fight Alone". It's also, like you guys said above, similar to Rampage as One. Nhnowell 20:46, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * This skill is way too expensive, it will take up almost 100% of my total energy pool.
 * Ever heard of Expertise? 65.30.20.38 22:41, 15 June 2007 (CDT)
 * My apologies, I forgot about that.
 * Speaking of Related skills, I deleted the "well duh" comment in the notes section by 24.16.115.224 ... Ruricu 12:53, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * now my first thoughts were rampage as one and "you'll never walk alone"...&mdash; ~ Soqed Hozi ~  12:23, 20 June 2007 (CDT)
 * You sure you don't mean "You'll never roam alone"? :P --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jioruji Derako.> 19:09, 20 June 2007 (CDT)

Progression
Do we need data of this kind ?



! Rank || Title || Skill effectiveness:
 * - align="center" valign="top"
 * - align="center"
 * 1 || Sunspear Sergeant ||
 * - align="center"
 * 2 || Sunspear Master Sergeant ||
 * - align="center"
 * 3 || Second Spear ||
 * - align="center"
 * 4 || First Spear ||
 * - align="center"
 * 5 || Sunspear Captain ||
 * - align="center"
 * 6 || Sunspear Commander ||
 * - align="center"
 * 7 || Sunspear General ||
 * - align="center"
 * 8 || Sunspear Castellan || 23s, +3
 * - align="center"
 * 9 || Spearmarshal || 24s, +3
 * - align="center"
 * 10 || Legendary Spearmarshal (Max Level) || 25s, +3
 * }


 * Well the Lightbringer skills do so I would say yes --Blue.rellik 23:05, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

Entropy, get your "Lame" tag ready...
Where to begin...25 energy, needs a pet, inferior IAS and health regen, and quite possibly the UGLIEST SKILL ICON EVER. Triple Shot isn't any better, and we get no good skill balances...thanks again, Anet. Arshay Duskbrow 00:54, 16 June 2007 (CDT), (P.S., STILL waiting for a Punishing Shot buff.)
 * "Expertise." "Non-elite." - Auron 00:59, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Triple Shot is ridiculous. At least try to learn skill synergy before saying they're crap. --Kale Ironfist 01:03, 16 June 2007 (CDT)


 * My first thought was "meh", it's Rampage as One that doesn't take up a skill slot and isn't as good. But I tried it out, works pretty well actually! Same energy cost as RaO, but don't forget, this lasts twice as long with no attribute investment. I'm currently using it with 9 Expertise, so it's not prohibitively expensive. And I'm also using Prepared Shot, so I've actually got energy to spare even while keeping this up infinitely. Quite a useful skill for any Ranger that wants to use RaO in a non-Thumper build, really... B/P is a particularly awesome use, and even a Broad Head Arrow setup can really use this (since BHA already has high Expertise).
 * And as for Triple Shot, it's just like Dual Shot with more arrows and a bigger damage decrease. All in all, it's more damage. And bam, three energy with a zealous bow? Nice. Don't get me started on how well it works with a Vampiric bow. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] Jioruji Derako.> 01:06, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Auron, neither of those matter. I played with RaO extensively before it was nerfed, and that skill was worth 12-13 energy every 20 seconds. This is not, even if it isn't elite. If there was no pet requirement, or 15 energy, it might be a different story. Arshay Duskbrow 01:13, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I played with RaO extensively after it was nerfed, and guess what? It was still worth it. The unskilled teams would bring plenty of Energizing Wind to keep spamming it, I just learned how to use it effectively. This skill isn't anything to write home about, but it isn't anything to bitch about, either. - Auron 01:41, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * When other professions get skills like Critical Agility and Eternal Aura, yes it is. Arshay Duskbrow 02:54, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Critical Agility sucks, waste of a slot on the bar. Assassins don't need IAS in PvE (after running my sin through all three campaigns and never needing IAS, I'm not saying this without a reason). Eternal Aura is... yeah, way better than this skill. TBH Rangers need a huge PvE buff period (bow damage needs to be dangerous, pets need to do more than... attack...), but this skill isn't horrible. - Auron 02:57, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * That's such a stupid reason. My warrior very rarely uses a IAS when I play in PVE but that doesn't mean I wouldn't use a IAS. You do realize that a sin can more or less keep it up continously? You do realize you not only kill quicker but take 25% less damage? How is that useless? The things I would do for a skill like that for a warrior or w/e --Blue.rellik 03:17, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I do believe he realizes. Having eyes and all. Readem (talk *contribs ) 03:21, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Yes, having played with every single assassin skill in the game (including similar ones like Critical Defenses), I realize that it is maintainable. I also realize, having played sin extensively, that simple "wanding" or autoattack damage is negligible - even with IAS. The only way sins do damage is via skills, quite unlike a warrior; and the highest damaging skill combo in the game atm is Moebius + Death Blossom spam. Now, Moebius + Death Blossom spam is nice, but the 2-second recharge is very awkward under IAS; your skills recharge right after you start an attack, which generally makes you stop and start attacking again to activate it. If you were doing it without IAS, the skills would recharge in perfect timing with the autoattack, thus dealing the exact same amount of damage without wasting a skill slot for IAS. - Auron 03:21, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Actually in most areas of PvE (and I mean all areas where monsters are lvl 20+), a warriors normal attack is rather piddly as well. Of course in PvP a warrior's normal attack is insane but put that aside since it's kinda irrelevent here. Your problem is that you're comparing it what your say is the 'highest damaging skill combo', why? Obviously everything sucks when you compare it to the highest damaging skillset for that profession, in pvp then yeah of course but this isn't pvp. This is Pve where most of the guys are stupid and hit very hard. Also in PvE, the monsters generally have higher skills than the player and there are more of them mindlessly attacking everything, getting hit by that stray Searing flames from that boss hurts more than it does from another player (unless it's a corrdinated spike but even then it's debatable). That and you're considering using that skill with your combo, never stopping to think what it could do for other professions (that is if other professions can use this, which they should). This is like a godsend for warriors (if they can use this) and even dervishes would like this --Blue.rellik 04:01, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * If you take the time to read, he was talking specifically about sins. In PvE, with an IAS, attack chains are clumsy. Readem (talk *contribs ) 04:06, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Maybe if YOU took the time to read then you will see that he said "Critical Agility sucks, waste of a slot on the bar. Assassins don't need IAS in PvE". His initial sentence was simply stating that Critical sgility is crap, his next sentence was why he thinks it sucks for sins. He obviously meant that this sucks for sins but he didn't type that. If he wanted to avoid any confusion then something like Critical agility sucks for sin --Blue.rellik 04:12, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * And then, Blue.rellik realizes, that Auron was talking about sins when he said it sucked :O. Wow, he observed the obvious! Joy to the world! He's amazing! He deserves medal! He wins PvE! And then...something truly amazing occurs. He learns to spell! zomgwtfbbqpwnage! Readem (talk *contribs ) 04:27, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Has it come to insulting one's spelling already? Yep. Now you know you've won an arguement when the other side has to resort to making fun of the other side's English capabilities! Please spare me, my point still stands --Blue.rellik 06:02, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * No I am just implying your intelligence is sub-par :). Readem (talk *contribs ) 16:35, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * And I'm implying you're resorting to insulting my intelligence because you have run out of rebuttals. I wonder what that says about YOUR intelligence --Blue.rellik 21:57, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Nope, still get plenty. Just stating that it is hard to take anyone serious, if they are unable to spell, and do not realize proper-nouns begin with caps :). <font color="Black">Readem (<font color="Red">talk *<font color="Black">contribs ) 23:05, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * If you guys are just going to argue with each other, there's no reason to make everyone else listen to it. Either accept that you both have your own opinions, or take it to your own talk pages. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] <font color="#237d00">Jioruji Derako.> 22:58, 16 June 2007 (CDT)

I don't see what's wrong with this skill. I used to use RaOs for rangers PvE, if a frontline is needed, well this plus Ferocios Strike or even Enraged would be crazy. The speed buff isn't as important since mobs don't kite as effectively, and then you get an elite pet attack skill too, AND it lasts longer, and therefore cost less. gg. -Silk Weaker 07:13, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I personally like this skill but not everybody is a beastmaster. The Hobo

This Skill is complete garbage. Nothing else to say.
 * I disagree; it's got limited use with the requirement of a pet, but plenty of PvE Rangers use pets simply for the extra damage and to absorb damage. I use it with about 9 Expertise, and that lowers the energy cost to just 15-16... having a decent IAS and some extra regen is quite helpful, especially when you don't need to invest in another secondary attribute or profession. No need to invest in Beast Mastery, either. Limited use, but quite useful in the situations where you can use it. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] <font color="#237d00">Jioruji Derako.> 20:08, 17 June 2007 (CDT)
 * It's Rampage as One-lite, and nobody has ever said Rampage as One was a bad elite. I still don't see why people are crapping on this one, since it's extremely useful. The stigma on pets as damage dealers needs to be mended, along with Mesmers and their viability as party members in PvE, among other things. --Kale Ironfist 21:06, 17 June 2007 (CDT)
 * For regular PvE, I personally like having my pet around to deal a little extra damage. And I'm much happier watching my pet get beat up by Warriors, as opposed to having all those Warriors beating me up...
 * And if you're going to bring a pet, then hell, why not bring an unconditional, non-removable, un-interruptible IAS and health buff rolled into one? --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] <font color="#237d00">Jioruji Derako.> 21:17, 17 June 2007 (CDT)

Since that buff is for +3 health regen and costs 25 energy? Even with expertise....wtf? You wouldn't pay that cost on any other class. Its a bad skill...even more so compared to the other sunspear skills.
 * If it was any cheaper, then Expertise would just make it over-powered... you're not just paying for your own HP regen, you're also paying for regen for your pet, and an IAS for both you and your pet. My personal opinion is that it's worth the high cost, but yes, it is overly expensive if you don't need every one of those effects. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] <font color="#237d00">Jioruji Derako.> 22:04, 17 June 2007 (CDT)

And you really don't need any of those effects. RaO is used mainly in PvP- and it should. I maybe used it once in pve..as a joke. I honestly only use a pet in a b/p group..otherwise it isn't useful..and this skill takes to much energy to be used w/ splinter barrage

If this skill does not suit your playstyle (i.e. "I only bring pets in B/P groups, pets are garbage"), it is not for you. If you run barrage/pet in PvE, or play a beastmaster, this skill is not crap, it is really good. At 12 Beast Mastery especially Dire Pets DO damage, even without skills. Besides that, if you do not use a pet, you cannot use it either, so this should be hint enough for what builds in mind this skill has been developed. --84.147.118.227 06:18, 23 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Exactly. The skill's pretty useful with the right build.
 * ...that said, I think I do understand what most people don't like about the skill. Rangers only get one Sunspear skill, and it's one that only works if you use it just right? As opposed to Assassins, who get a skill that they should pretty much always use, Ritualists, who get a nice skill that works in almost any situation, Warriors, who get a nice, solid attack skill, and so on... as far as power level, I think the Ranger skill's not lacking, but as for usefulness, it's a bit underwhelming. Then again, aside from pets, what else are Rangers known for that they don't already have covered? (already plenty of solid interrupts, spikes, traps, etc...) --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] <font color="#237d00">Jioruji Derako.> 07:03, 23 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Assassins got the same deal, only to a much lesser extent. Assassins required you to use daggers. If you're using a Deadly Arts build with no dagger attacks, all you got was an enchantment version of "Watch Yourself!". --Kale Ironfist 07:32, 23 June 2007 (CDT)
 * I think that's the same deal, only reversed. Out of the few 'Sins that don't use daggers, I highly doubt they'll be all that ticked off. On the other hand, for Rangers, we're looking at all the players that don't use pets that are getting ticked off.
 * I wonder what skill they would have come up with for Rangers if they decided to make it based off the Expertise line instead? E-Management would be a bit pointless, as there's already tons of that for Rangers... what else could they add in? --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] <font color="#237d00">Jioruji Derako.> 17:49, 23 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Something that actually gives Rangers a comparable DPS to Warriors, perhaps? Rapid Fire...Preparation, for 24 seconds you attack 25% faster and your arrows deal +13...45% more damage, ends if you use an Attack skill. Maybe a skill that makes a Ranger a dangerous damage dealer without using secondary profession? Overdraw...Preparation, for 5...21 seconds your arrows take 33% longer to fire but move three times as fast and have 25% armor penetration. Or a skill other than Barrage that gives crowd control. Call of the Wild...Preparation, for 18 seconds when your arrows hit an Enchanted target, they deal +5...15 damage to all adjacent foes. Or some other self-healing than Troll Unguent which has enough problems of its own. Like, say...a modified version of Marksman's Wager that gives and loses Health instead of Energy. Not lifesteal, but just healing. Sniper's Wager...Preparation, for 24 seconds you gain 3...10 health if your arrows hit but lose 15 health if they miss. They all need balancing but you get the point. NRA is meh for its cost and even with its plus sides (unlinked attrib, infinitely maintainable, etc.) precisely because not many PvE Rangers care about faster Pet attack speed or use RaO-type builds. However, I think it may possibly work on an IW Mesmer, or a Paragon, or a Warrior that uses Warrior's Endurance. Maybe. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 18:11, 23 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Self-heal sounds like a good one, maybe... but the problem I have with a lot of skills like that is they've already been done, most of the time. Hmm... a skill idea was one like Barrage, but instead of hitting a tight group, it hit guys around you... basically, you fire your arrows straight up, and they "rain down" on your foes.
 * Arrowhead Rain...Bow Attack, costs 10 energy, 2 second cast time, 2 second recharge: Shoot arrows at up to eight foes in the area. These arrows move slower then normal and strike for +10...20 damage. This attack cannot be blocked.
 * Probably overpowered, but slow to use. And it's a concept that hasn't already been applied to other bow attacks... even if people don't use it often, it's unique and cool looking. It'll find uses in various situations. If people don't use it, it'll be because they don't want to, rather then because they can't (because they don't have a pet, etc.). --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] <font color="#237d00">Jioruji Derako.> 18:25, 23 June 2007 (CDT)

Despite its cost and need for a pet, e-management skills that a ranger has access to such as Marksman's Wager and Archer's Signet could make this workable. For instance, at the highest Expertise breakpoint of 13, NRA costs 12 energy, using Marksman's Wager and Dual or Triple shot plus a zealous bow, the cost is easily recovered. With Marksman's Wager active, Dual Shot + Zealous bow will gain you 20 energy when it hits and triple shot + Zealous bow will gain you 30 energy. Just a thought exercise. If someone has triple shot could they try this? I'll give it a go with Dual shot at some point. --BeeD 23:02, 25 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Or just use Prepared Shot, I use that with great success. The cost on NRA is quite manageable even at just 9 Expertise. I've got Triple and Wager though, I'll give it a test sometime. --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] <font color="#237d00">Jioruji Derako.> 23:19, 25 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Indeed, Prepared would be MUCH better than Marksman's Wager, which is pretty much obsolete thanks to the former. Arshay Duskbrow 00:07, 26 June 2007 (CDT)

Getting the new skills
How exactly do you get these new skills? I talked to Shiloh, but he's still giving normal skills for my heroes???--marcopolo47 22:27, 17 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Minimum Sunspear rank one. First option he gives should be about the Sunspear skills. --Kale Ironfist 22:36, 17 June 2007 (CDT)

About Energizing wind
wouldnt it make more sense to just put a few points into expertise instead of droping a 5 second cast spirit thats gonna piss off your ele or monk team mates? :-) It doesnt take much in expertise to make a huge difference in this skills cost. and actually alot of rangers are going to have around 50% engery reduction through expertise to get their attack skills down too. Lovely that this skill isnt tied to beast mastery but sad u have to use up two extra slots to use it. Good reason to show off your leet pet/tank :-)
 * I think that note in particular is simply a carry-over from the notes on RaO... it makes this skill cheaper, but you're right, it'll mess up your teammates a bit. Not to mention, in PvE, you'll often be leaving the spirit's range and needing to re-cast... I'll remove the note. Too many downsides that need mentioning, and if you need to list notes on your notes, then perhaps you're better off not having them at all. :D --[[image:GEO-logo.png]] <font color="#237d00">Jioruji Derako.> 03:35, 20 June 2007 (CDT)