Talk:Star of Transference

So, I pay a Skill Point to.. get it back at a cost? O_o --Yaki 15:13, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
 * You can transfer it to new character's I guess. [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] frvwfr2 (T/C) 15:16, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
 * NO WAIT! IT'S FOR SKILL POINT HIDING! [[Image:User Frvwfr2 signature.jpg|User:Frvwfr2]] frvwfr2 (T/C)
 * lulz --84.24.206.123 15:17, 24 August 2007 (CDT)

Neat idea for the market. --Mooseyfate 16:00, 24 August 2007 (CDT)

Even noobs can easily acquire skill points. i dont see this as useful
 * Ah, like, "I've been playing for 600 hours on my Elementalist and have aquired 5,000,000 experience and with that loads of Skill Points. I wanna get the Skill Hunter title on my 156,000 experience Warrior. I use a bunch of Star of Transfer ence." --Yaki 16:41, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
 * I smell expensive survivor...--IxI Raiden IxI 18:22, 24 August 2007 (CDT)
 * How would this be used for survivor? --Gimmethegepgun 02:37, 25 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Use (expensive) Stars of Transference to acquire around 150 Skill Points on your Legendary Survivor-aiming-character who has approximately 150'000 experience. Skill Cap x 240. --Yaki 05:15, 25 August 2007 (CDT)
 * me to...overpriced imo...the effects of the other rank3-250g+twice25common-materials stuff is better — [[Image:Zerpha_Elixir_Of_Valor.jpg]] Zerpha The Improver  12:43, 25 August 2007 (CDT)
 * Survivor is based off experience, not skill points. This doesn't actually give you experience. --Armond Warblade (talk) 14:51, 26 August 2007 (CDT)
 * It does if you use the skill points to get SoCs and cap elites with them. Nyktos 12:23, 27 August 2007 (CDT)

I crafted several stars for a Guild member who had used the majority of their skill points capping elites. Although I was crafting 50 stars and the NPC required the crafting materials for fifty stars, when I traded in the materials I was only deducted 1 skill point. Not sure if this is an error in the system or simply a great way to pass along skill points without actually sacrificing you own skill points. Basically, you can have an infinate number of skill points as long as you always have at least the necessary materials and 1 skill point to craft with! 69.135.195.253 08:45, 26 August 2007 (CDT) Kai
 * Of course it's an error...you could have used them yourself, and just gained 49 neerly free skillpoints, reguardless what character you use on. This is desighned to transfer from 1 character to another, so why would they make it worthwhile to use it on the character that made it?  Serpent615  13:54, 27 August 2007

I don't see this as being useful at all except to sell to other players who want a skill point without spending one. Even to gain a skill point for another character on your account - rather pointless as I can get as many skill points as I would ever need just by playing through the game with each character, as I intend to anyway. I would rather see another bonus added to this thing to at least make it worth the code wasted to put it in the game. HanokOdbrook 13:32, 4 September 2007 (CDT)

Possible Trivia
Maybe this item is based on Devil May Cry. Kailden Jera 12:28, 30 August 2007 (CDT)
 * doubt it. and not everything in guild wars is a reference to something.--[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 12:29, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

Salvage
-1 plant fiber 217.225.95.3 11:07, 1 September 2007 (CDT) ouch, lolTrapY 13:57, 3 September 2007 (CDT)

Wait...
So you pay 1 skill point only to get one back??? That makes no sense... Dean Harper 20:06, 16 September 2007 (CDT)
 * the same comment was already said and a reply was already made but what thew hell ill give it a shot......they are used for transferingskill points between characters useful for new characters are characters that are going for skill hunter if your stupid enough to buy one then use on the same character then well enjoy wasting money
 * A lot of people have a character they farm with (like a 55 monk/necro or other popular builds) where they might have a few hundred skill points, if they need to learn some more skills on a character they a bringing up they can just craft a handful of those and put it in storage for the other character. Viruzzz

I Nominate...
...the Star of Transference for the title of Most Confusing Object in the Gameworld. People just don't get this thing. I don't know why. It's like a difficult concept for some players to grasp or something. (I bet there's a quest. A secret quest. You can only get it if you talk to such-and-such NPC with exactly 42 Stars of Transference in your inventory, and only while the world has favor...) Gwen Shadowsound 18:59, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
 * What? it is for uh............ transferernce?? [[Image:ShadyGuy.jpg]] 19:00, 7 November 2007 (UTC)


 * And who would want to transfer skill points for a price? I mean, come on, Tomes are even easier to get, and much cheaper once the skills reach 300gold to buy. Less Able to Make Effective! --[[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (s)talkpage 19:03, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The idea is to transfer them to your other characters rather than other players. --Yaki 16:00, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Even then it's much more profitable to get either tomes, or do quests. --[[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG]] -- (s)talkpage 16:02, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Spam
How cool would it be to stand in a town and spam these and clog up the chat with (your name) gains a skill point.--Chris1645 22:36, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Lol, that'd be awesome! 69.159.200.89 17:35, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

You get the animation that you've leveled up, but it doesn't say you've gained a level =S Bored 15:29, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Why a stub?
Why is this still makred as a stub? What info is there still needed? Malko050987 07:27, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Usage
Ok, I have not purchased or used one of these yet. Anyone know when and where they can be used? Does it just add a skill point to a character? Or does it immediately cause the skill trainer window to pop up? Can it be used in town? Or an Explorable Area? Updating the Usage section of the article is probably all that is needed to remove the stub notice. -- Sabardeyn 17:12, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * They can be used anywhere and only adds a skill point. It is nothing like a tome.  Aggro [[Image:Isk8.png]]  Sk8  17:15, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Ummm, don't mean to sound rude, but you reverted my edit. Which is fine. But if you didn't think it was necessary, why didn't you also remove the stub notice? Seemed to me that the Description and Usage info needed to be fulfilled and then the article was complete. -- Sabardeyn 17:21, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Way ahead of you on that one. I actually removed the stub notices on all the other consumables that still had them.  As far as your edit, You mainly only repeated what was already listed in the article.  I really don't understand why the confusion for such a simple item.  lol Aggro [[Image:Isk8.png]]  Sk8  17:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Probably because, IMO, people are noticing that the wiki articles are becoming less helpful. Look, no offense to you or the edit - because it really does not matter. But when I read a wiki article I expect it to explain what something is, what it does and how I can make best use of it. By the average user for the average user. Lately I'm noticing that this wiki is becoming very "Just the facts, ma'am." To the point where I must look at the Discussion page for actual information. The article itself is nearly useless because it only regurgitates exactly what you can obtain directly from within the game. Their is little or nothing in the article entry to provide answers unless you're so thoroughly familiar with every aspect of the game that you really don't need to make use of the wiki. In other words reading this article "as is" just left me wondering what the heck a Star of Transference was, at least until I looked at this page. If this style is what is intended for the future of this wiki, why wasn't it sold to Anet instead? Both wikis would thereby be equivalent. Again, I'm not angry at you Aggro. I just do not like the trend that I am seeing in this wiki. Its editorial efforts are reducing the value it once had to answer the average player's questions. -- Sabardeyn 18:13, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * First off, with this article. If you compare our article to GWW's version, they are practically identical. What do you suggest this page is missing?  Everything you listed out beforehand in your last update to the page, was already listed.  You didn't add any new information.  Unless your idea of adding new information is just repeating what is already said 2 or 3 times, as to not have a "typical" reader miss it.  As far as why this wiki wasn't sold to Anet is a long and complicated debacle which can be found here.  And I in now way think that anyone's constructive criticism is every considered flamming.  If constructive criticism doesn't occur, then positive change will never happen.  Please list ways in which you think editing this article will help clean up the confusion in which I can't seem to find.  Aggro [[Image:Isk8.png]]  Sk8  18:21, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Part of the confusion is the wiki's own attempt to standardize information. "Double click to gain a skill point" has no informational value as it does not describe anything. It does not explain who, what, when, where or why in and of itself. It excels at explaining how you use a star. (Together all of the italicized words [the "5 W's"] represent good journalistic practices to write an article.) But that is Usage, not Description. The Notes section, which the wiki is over-using lately, is intended for additional information not covered elsewhere. Every other section takes precedence in using/displaying info; this means the Notes section should be the last section written as it is the last place information should be included. Corollary to that, it should not contain much info. Beyond four items, a list can become unwieldy for the reader to comprehend. Notice that many larger lists start sub-divisions or include additional explanations on each point - within the list.


 * Users will read or scan information. In this wiki, as in most others, reading is more common because their is too much information to convey. While brevity is important, the information cannot be so short as to seem terse and unhelpful. This means that their must be a certain degree of informational overlap between articles. Otherwise you've broken material down to such a finite degree that it has no context. This is basically what has happened to this article. All of the real information has been placed in other articles with a link.


 * The Description that I created was repetitive (I absolutely agree) in that it contained information currently in the Notes section. However your edit pre-supposes that the information belongs in the Notes section - in a list that is out of context because it just references other articles without explicitly explaining how they apply to the Star. (We'll ignore the fact that all these article links lead to an endless loop of cross-references.) This is simply too much for the average player who has not mastered 4 products, 10 professions, however many builds, PvE and PvP. Anyone who has mastered all of that does not need anything from this wiki. But the wiki articles do sound like they're being written for this hypothetical Uber player.


 * For the average player the article should be nearly self-contained. Yes, certain basic underlying concepts should not be explained within this article. Links to other articles are optional and should contain additional information that the reader can pursue if they feel like it. But please note the word optional. Many of the articles are starting to be nothing but links and as few other parts of speech as sufficient to string the links together (ie, the current Notes section). Effectively that makes the Notes section of the text the "meat and potatoes" of the article. I've already said that the Notes section is the last place for info, this article breaks that concept.


 * To see what I mean, mock up the page to include my edit expanded to include the links instead of just a generic comment about reputation, but remove the duplicate info from the Notes section. That is the way I believe the article should exist. There is now a description that satisfies the what, when, and why of a Star of Transference. Who is answered under Acquisition, how under Usage. Notes is just the plant fiber and stacking items.


 * As for the comparison to GW's Official wiki. Personally I find their wiki has the same problem but to a worse degree than this site. Facts are shown but information in human readable form is scarce. Also their is a degree of information lacking on their site that I cannot put my finger on. Not sure if it is because of possible spoilers or corporate preference or what. I actually tell people to see this site instead of theirs on a regular basis. Generally this one has more complete information. -- Sabardeyn 23:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


 * You can't explain how damage works on every page that talks about dealing damage. You have to reference the articles that explain the concept more effectively and more appropriately than you can.  You shouldn't have to follow a chain of cross-references, but by linking to a base page that explains the vast majority of what you need to know, an average player will be able to understand most of what they need to know, without cluttering the wiki.  Cluttering the wiki with repetitive explanations makes it less usable for everyone, especially in the cases where information becomes outdated: updating that repeated information everywhere it is repeated is an enormous task.  The skill point article explains quite well to the vast majority of players everything they need to know about skill points.


 * As for explaining why one would want a skill point, telling someone that they can trade it to other characters on their account, or other players, is sufficient. If you can't think of a reason why you'd want to trade one, then you don't need to worry about it anyway.


 * Finally, the description section above all else is designed to be utterly concise. It gets to the point of what the item is and how to use it.  Further information belongs under the notes section if it is *directly* relevant to explaining the item, otherwise on the discussion page.--Carmine 17:39, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Sbaderyn: who: You, what: Gain a Skill Point, when:you double Click, where:Ok, not listed, anywhere and why:There is no reason. 3/5 answered from the page. If the description doesn't say any restriction, there is no restriction. And there ain't much reason to give to use a Star, imo. Skill Point hiding? --- -- (s)talkpage 19:28, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Carmine, Vipermagi, et al: I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree. From this, and comments elsewhere, I'm noticing that the writing style of all articles is becoming so terse as to be scanned by someone who pretty much knows the game but needs to have their memory jogged from time to time. Thus, the consistent short-listing (IMO). I saw a problem with the wiki in general (this being only an instance), commented on it, and was asked to explain my viewpoint. I responded as asked. I'm perceived as wrong. Fine, life goes on. What the heck is skill point hiding and why would you need to do it? The game allows you to earn, purchase and/or use an unlimited number of skill points at any time for any reason. Using a Star has no impact on the game in the middle of gaming actions (ie, doesn't alter # of skills available or skills on bar while in zone/mission). -- Sabardeyn 06:50, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Duh, skill point hiding is used against skill point denial builds! (try looking at it with a sense of humor, need to lighten up a bit.)
 * So what are you confused about here? I fail to see how this article is incomplete, if a user knows what a Skill Point is then its a pretty basic system. Click to gain a skill point.
 * If you believe other articles should be more detailed then be bold and change it. Don't cause a arguement on a irrelevant page.--[[Image:AlariSig.jpg]] 07:50, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * For what it's worth I think Sabardeyn has a point.  &lt;LordBiro&gt;/&lt;Talk&gt; 08:49, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Alari, I do not mean to offend, but did you read the comments above and look at the article history page? Because I was bold and my changes were immediately reverted. That is what this whole discussion is about and why it is taking place here. Everything else is an outgrowth of that original event. As stated, the original article did not provide info that the average wiki user, and average GW player, could easily and immediately comprehend.
 * Lord Biro, I would just like to say thank you for the kind words. I appreciate them.
 * I think an example would "answer" the various questions and concerns here much better than my attempts to explain myself. Because apparently something is not being accurately conveyed. So please take a look at this page Star of Transference (Sabardeyn Variant) and compare it to the original. Please read both pages not as you are (a GW player with a lot of experience and extensive knowledge of the game), but as a player who can only play 10-20 hrs a month and has not gotten very far. A player who is not thoroughly familiar with all of the games' underlying mechanics, concepts and assumptions. Please note that this sample is not the version I originally submitted and that Aggro reverted. I've had more time to think and consider wording so this version is much clearer. It also includes some of the other suggestions made in the 15 Feb 2008 comment, above. -- Sabardeyn 07:50, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * First, being kind has nothing to do with agreeing with someone. I read it yes, and looked at what I assumed was your edit(anon IP) and I can not see how anything you added was not summarized in the line Useful primarily for "trading" skill points with other characters on your account or other players. Which was present at the time of your edit. --[[Image:AlariSig.jpg]] 08:03, 2 March 2008 (UTC)