Talk:Guild Wars Eye of the North

The froggeth speaks
http://img182.imageshack.us/my.php?image=chat3sz6.jpg

Interesting, we have not seen the end of Gwen

Thorton 10:59, 18 March 2007 (CDT)


 * Hairdressers FTW! I want to change a hairstyle for my necro. Because long hair cover his Vabbian scar completely... So sad. fR0z3n.S0u1 06:54, 19 March 2007 (CDT)

Norns? Isn't that a copyright breach?
The Norns are a race of villains in the Tad Williams quartet (trilogy in hardback) Memory, Sorrow and Thorn, also known as the Hikeda'ya. If that isn't a copyright breach then maybe the game will take place in Russia: I have seen the river Syr Darya spelt as Syrdar'ya; which coincidentally is almost homophonic to Zida'ya, the Norns' enemies in Memory, Sorrow and Thorn. (I may be wrong in some places) &mdash; Ebany Salmonderiel (Talk) [ Leave a note] 12:48, 19 March 2007 (CDT)


 * Sorry wats norns and all that got to do with guildwars? Jupsto [[image:Feck_Off.jpg|19px]] 12:50, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
 * @Jupsto - An article in the Inquirer referenced "Guild Wars 2" as having playable races, one of which would be called "Norns". However, ArenaNet has stated that some in that article is true, some is false, and much is misleading ... so waiting for more confirmation from PC Gamer magazine.
 * @Ebany - See also Norns, Norn (Creatures), and Norns in popular culture. The name is used in many places, so copyright issues shouldn't be a concern. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 13:04, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Gee Thanks Superman. Jupsto [[image:Feck_Off.jpg|19px]] 13:11, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Thanks for explaining that, Barek. &mdash;[[Image:Alert.PNG]] Ebany Salmonderiel (Talk) [ Leave a note] 13:38, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Actually, I think it would only be a copyright infringement if they stole the story or culture of these other fantasy creatures. The name itself would fall under trademark law and even then the other IP owners would have to show losses from use by GW in order to sue. --Trekie9001 18:45, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

September 1?
On Play.com, if you search Guild Wars, you will see "CAmpaign Four" and it said that it will be released in September 1, 2007... --Swift Thief 22:15, 19 March 2007 (CDT)


 * According to the links above, Play.com are tricksy hobbitses. -- Dashface [[Image:Dashface.png]] 00:38, 20 March 2007 (CDT)


 * Retailers often come up with the weirdest of realease dates. When they add a product to their system they must include a release date, but as no official date has been announced, they just randomize a day. :) --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 05:38, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

EYE OF THE NORTH CONFIRMED!
This is VERY early information from people who just got done reading the info

" Sorry for the delay, had to run for a few mins.

Eye of the north is CONFIRMED. GW2 is CONFIRMED!

Just what I remember from reading through once: Gwen is in eye of the north. Eotn is an expansion due 'holiday' time, and will be cheaper. There will be three 'Acts' taking you through different sections (underground network of catacombs, Charr homeland, Maguuma area, Shiverpeaks).

There was a hint at carrying over characters to GW2, but it also stated they take place hundreds of years apart, so...

GW2 will, again, be no subscription fees, but [unfortunately], will have a severly raised level cap (read 100+ or uncapped). Fully instanced worlds will take a back-seat to open areas supporting hundreds of people.

I apologize for this being kind of rushed, but I am in the process of reading it a second time, and summarizing it better. Stay Tuned"

Will update as time passes.

PROOF THAT HE DOES HAVE THE MAGAZINE IS HERE, HE HAS THE MINI!

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10125206&page=15

Thorton 17:12, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
 * \o/ GW became WoW! Hip hip hurrah! Can we have mounts now? --Dirigible 17:16, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

MORE INFO!

Summary:

They are abandoning the Campaign format because it required them to reinvent GW completely for every chapter, and it began to feel 'bloated' to them. The Expansion, and increased timeframe, allow them to do what they want to with the game, without worrying about new professions, or pre-lvl20 content

BETA for GW2 in 2008

eye of the north HOLIDAY 2007 RELEASE

40 new armor sets, 150 new skills (including 50 pve only), 10 new heroes

"extend character development beyond level 20" ~James Phinney~

EOTN will supposedly link GW1 and 2

underground complex of tunnels through all three 'continents' present thus far is revealed.

Three acts: Act1 takes you through 18 underground dungeons to help the dwarves defend against 'the fiery Destroyer', eventually taking you to the Asura and Norns (races) Act2 has three story arcs ranging from exploring the Norns, to the Charr homeland, to an Asura resistance of the Destroyer Act3 pits you against the Great Destroyer

Far shiverpeaks are Norn Lands, Charr homeland is north of ascalon, Asurans are near Maguuma, Tyrian catacombs stretch across the entire continent presumably

GWEN

Thorton 17:29, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

So, GW is now like a regular MMORPG? That sucks. In either case, I want PvP weekend. I forsee it end of this month/beginning of next.--Nog64Talk 17:31, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

GW2 INFO!

Default Guild Wars 2 Summary Hundreds of years later, in Tyria... sounds more of a race-reliant struggle.

Predominately open worlds, with Instancing as a secondary feature in some areas (not positive on the interpretation). Hundreds of people in the same area, and choices that the population as a whole change the quest structure. PCG gave an example of choosing to rally against a dragon or not. Those that help, gain loot and xp. If the dragon isnt driven away, another 'quest' may trigger, leaving more options for the population. Very cool idea IMO.

I'll just take the level cap stuff directly - "Events will also offer a way for players of different levels to keep interacting in the persistent world - which is crucial, since right now, ArenaNet is planning a very high [100-plus], or possibly no level cap"

Sidekicks simlar to CoH, allowing powers to seep from a high level character to a friendly lower level char.

'Click to move' will be abandonned in favor of a more freedom-rich control scheme, including 'jumping, swimming, and sliding'

destroyable environments?

no real world limitations to servers. you pick a 'world', but can switch between the realms.

World vs World combat sounds to be a massive scale capture the flag (AB style?) with no minimum or maximum party size. Big-ass raids that can supposedly take place for weeks on end. At the end, the 'world' will be reset, and it will start again it seems.

GvG will still be present, as a more balanced form where everyone is on a level playing field.

Companions: NPC like heros can join you (like a pet it sounds), and dont count towards your party. Not using this feature lets you be mroe powerful.

I think I read somewhere in here that it will be mission-based, but I didn't see it in my quick second-look.

As of now, there will be no monthly fees, and no 'campaigns'... mini-expansions, and expansions are hinted at.

If I think of something else, I will add it... or someone else can :P

Thorton 17:42, 20 March 2007 (CDT)


 * Ew.–Ichigo724[[Image:Ichigo-signature.jpg]] 17:58, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
 * WHO ARE YOU AND WHAT DID YOU DO TO MY HA--Nog64Talk [[Image:Yaaaay.JPG]] 18:02, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
 * So now we are getting WoW without monthly fees = more little kids and less content than in WoW? I don't have anything against WoW, but to me the ideas behind GW were superior. They are scrapping most of what I loved in this game. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 18:04, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Where are you getting this information from? The official site says that the earliest date any magazine with this info goes up for sale is March 23, in Romania. - [[Image:Candle.jpg|12px]] Krowman (talk • contribs) 18:06, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Those are the dates when they are for sale on shops, but people with magazine orders get them earlier. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 18:10, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
 * It's both on GWG and GWO forums. Magazines have gone out a few days in advance for subscribers. --Dirigible 18:10, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

Straight from Gaile Gray: World PvP will allow you to play characters of any level, using the skills that you have in your possession at that particular time. Structured PvP (similar to today's GvG) will allow you to enter the game at maximum level with all skills. Yes, that's UAX. Roleplaying Characters will gain the opportunity to acquire higher levels. I believe that the magazine refers to a cap of 100 or more. This is an opportunity that players have been requesting over the last couple of years. I know that personally, I like the idea a lot. --Dirigible 18:10, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

HOLY SHIT! lvl 100+?! that takes ages, but it's cool :) InfestedHydralisk   18:26, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Hmm, I think I need to know what benefits extra levels bring before having an opinion on this. If it's just a reflection of XP, no problem. But... More HP? More attribute points? That could be a problem, especially for PVErs taking part in PVP. However, in the past Anet has done a great job of creating a level playing field, I don't expect them to abandon that. I'm optimistic. — HarshLanguage [[Image:qswearing_small.png|HarshLanguage]] 18:33, 20 March 2007 (CDT)


 * Yuck. GW2 is going the way of WoW.  The whole level cap issue depends on how long it takes to get to lvl 100+.  I guess if all the XP rewards are like factions ones on steriods then it might be ok, but I'm still not a fan of this.  The entire huge raids and World PvP sounds kind of cool, but other then that, bleh. Turk Nagona 18:58, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

So far GW2 sounds like a piece of shit version of WoW... lvl 100+? whats the point of that? I enjoy the fact guildwars is unique in so many ways, and now they are going to make it a piece of shit... disapointing...~Readem (Btw, if they just added more skills, items, professions, and a fe new features, I'd be plenty satisfied...)


 * Agreed. If I wanted grind and 100+ levels I'd be playing WoW or some other crap.  GW has died.  --[[image:Epinephrine.jpg]] ~ Epinephrine 20:30, 20 March 2007 (CDT)


 * However, apparently many have been asking for a higher level cap than 20. GvG sounds like it won't change very much at all. As long as they can maintain a game based more on skill and skill choices, then I think it will still maintain the challenge. Many of the problems people have with Guild Wars deals with the instances that are yours and yours alone. While it is nice, some people want to be able to meet others in the Wilderness. Also, shouldn't this talk be more about GW:EN? I know I'm guiltly of being offtopic, but Guild Wars 2 needs its own page now...I think... Trogam 21:04, 20 March 2007 (CDT)


 * World battles seems awesome, and apparently it "resets" after a designated amount of time, probably around a month. Also, with what little, if any, storyline there is for Eye of the North, you get to play as a Charr. Presumably, that means you're going to be north of the Great Wall a lot. The game lore says that the Rift from Tyria to the Gods is in the Tombs of Drascir, which is north of the Wall. Anyone think that the Old Ascalonian ruins of Rin, Drascir, etc. will play some sort of part in the game or be explained more in Eye of the North? Nhnowell 21:18, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

No level cap? or 100+??!??!?!? NO!!!! THEY HAVE RUINED GW! >.<, thats it. I'm hunting you down, Gaile! Caramel Ni 21:23, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

Clicky here for a picture of grown-up Gwen. --Dirigible 21:24, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

More pics please?


 * How can that possibly be Gwen? Gwen was no more than 9 or 10 in Pre.  It's only been a couple years or so since then, so she would be no more than 12-14 at most.
 * I don't see how she could be all grown up already. Kristy Dragonslayer 02:44, 21 March 2007 (CDT)


 * Nightfall takes place 5 years after the Searing and 3 years after the end of the Prophecies and Factions campaigns, and they may advance the timeline further for Eye of the North. -- Gordon Ecker 03:01, 21 March 2007 (CDT)


 * Yes, Gwen will be considerably older, but my issue is this... her armour is reminiscent of a Mesmer's, while I'm fairly certain she had Monk skills in Pre. Call me crazy, but so far all storyline NPCs have been given armour that resembles certain features of their class, if not all. -- Elveh 07:10, 21 March 2007 (CDT)


 * "When I grow up, I'm going to be a hero like my daddy. I'd like to be a warrior, but the mesmers' outfits are nicer, don't you think?" From the list of quotes Gwen says :) --24.250.248.144 08:12, 21 March 2007 (CDT)


 * I'd completely forgotten about her quotes, but then, I've not paid attention to them since I last spent time in Pre, which was over a year ago. It still seems weird, though. :) -- Elveh 13:46, 21 March 2007 (CDT)


 * Hmm, we might be able to jump in GW2, now wont that be exciting lol -- Xeon 22:52, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

IMHO, it all sounds like a dream coming true. Only my opinion though, so don't be in rush to bash it >< PvP chars at maximum level at start? That may means only more PvP chars will be created and played until PvE can reach the top. PvP and PvE pulled further apart? Quite possible. Personally, I've tried WoW only to find out that I hate it >< all this grinding drove me crazy in like 2 weeks. If GW2 is going to be (quest+mission, actually I hope for a NICE storyline)-based that should more or less enough to avoid heavy grinding. Old Freelancer game (single-player campaign), looks like a very good example to follow. And to say that I want to be able to run directly from Ascalon to Kamadan with a stop to rest in Kaineng... I'm gonna LOVE it =) fR0z3n.S0u1 02:41, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

Getting to level 20 is a minor inconvenience. What is it... two or three days? I wouldn't mind seeing a slightly higher cap so that reaching max level is actually an accomplishment. Or maybe no level cap (just no more health or attributes past a certain point). As long as they keep it free of monthly fees, I'll make due with it.--Warwulf 03:40, 21 March 2007 (CDT)


 * From GWW:EN talk page, *whispers* Gwen escaped the Searing, leaving behind her tattered cape and broken flute, travelled north, grew into a young woman trained in the ways of one of the new classes, and will become a staple of the expansion's storyline. :p — Gares 14:18, 13 March 2007 (EDT) Anyone want to bet platinum that I called it before the release of this newfound information? :p &mdash; Gares 11:32, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

To Include or Not?
Would the information from PCGamer count as official, since Arena Net most likely gave them the information? If so, it should be added to the article. --User:Albinobird 22:10, 20 March 2007 (CDT)


 * Yes, they're an official media partner. Be sure to paraphrase rather than directly quoting. -- Gordon Ecker 22:37, 20 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Someone else would have to add the information then, since I do not have a copy of PCGamer yet. --User:Albinobird[[Image:Albinobirdsigicon.JPG|Albinobird]] 22:40, 20 March 2007 (CDT)

PC Gamer Content
A more complete documentation can be currently found at this link: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2648062

Level cap
&rArr; moved to talk:Guild Wars 2

The different races (with pics) and story overview
(This is from GWO, but since their forums require registration to read, copying it here for everyone's convenience.)

Sylvari Characteristics:Naive, curious, gifted Words to live by:"Seize the moment." A young race of nature spirits who have awakened with the rise of a new age in Tyria, Sylvari are beings of light, as yet uncorrupted by knowledge of sorrow, suspicion, or hatred. Sylvari are proficient in things related to magic and dexterity, with a supernatural connection to plants and other an innate empathic bond to each other.

Asura Characteristics:Inventive, condescending Words to live by:"We're smarter than you." A diminutive race from the depths of Tyria, Asura wish to expand their empire to the surface world. Exceptionally intelligent and techinically minded, they use magical skills, stone, and metalworking to create weapons. Asura believe they are destined to rule the world, with the larger, less intelligent races as their subjects.

Charr Characteristics:Fierce, opportunistic, proud Words to live by:"Victory at any cost." A savage race of sentient beasts, the Charr will use any means avilable to destory their enemies: an ambush is as honorable as a fair fight, as victory is what matters. Though Charr have no concept of mercy, they can be protective of those within their tribe.

Norn Characteristics:Individualistic, stubborn, unrefined Words to live by:"Strength above all." A race of shape-shifting half-giants from the north, the Norn value personal strength, victory, and purifying the soul through battle. They revere the spirits of animals and call on them like shamans. Norn can access a skill that changes them into a half-Norn/half-bear, with increased health and melee damage.

Story: EotN's story expands on a storyline alluded to in Prophecies: The Great Dwarf, the patron god of all dwarves in the Guild Wars universe, opposes the Great Destroyer, an entity so fearsome, his name is forbidden to be spoken among the Dwarves. In Eye of the North, you meet and confront the Great Destroyer.

''In the first act, earthquakes reveal the Asuran tunnels below Tyria (the planet, not the continent) and these lead down to the Asuran empire below the earth. There you find out that the Asura are fighting against the Great Destroyer. You go with them, apparently through a magical gate, and meet the Norn. It also says "We're told you will encounter some 'suprises and a few familiar faces' " along the way. So, once you get to Norn-land (my term, not their's), you find out that the Dwarves are gearing up to fight off the Great Destroyer.''

''In the second act, you learn more about the Norn culture, and end up in Northern Ascalon, in (drumroll) the Charr homeland! The Charr homeland looks like Pre-Searing Ascalon, and is not seared like heartland Ascalon. The Charr are unravelling. They are in civil war, and are suffering from the loss of the Titans as their gods. You also learn that the Asura are preparing to fight the Great Destroyer using "their own brand of supermagic".''

In the third act, we finally meet and fight the Great Destroyer.--Dirigible 06:16, 21 March 2007 (CDT)


 * Charr homeland, that looks like Pre-Searing Ascalon? I'm already loving this expansion :) --Deadly Lollipop 06:37, 21 March 2007 (CDT)


 * Brilliant, especially if we might have a 40 mission long campaign to cover all this. Edwina Elbert 10:50, 21 March 2007 (CDT)


 * The Norn and Sylvari concept art reminds me of the style of Tony DiTerlizzi. -- Gordon Ecker 18:34, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

Important headline
Click here. Enjoy the read.--Dirigible 15:29, 21 March 2007 (CDT)


 * Nothing to read :P &mdash; Skuld 15:57, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
 * /Rage! Give me a min, I'll upload them somewhere else. --Dirigible 16:01, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
 * This one should work. For some reason Imageshack has ordered them backwards, so might want to start with the last picture. --Dirigible 16:24, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

Most MMORPG's with races give a much more diverse range, if less original. This seems quite original but only 4 races and they seem to be like proffesions also. seems tad limiting. I reckon each expansions will add a race or something, like how before they added proffesions. Jupsto 16:06, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
 * sylvians = elf like ranger?
 * asuarians = alien/gnome like mages?
 * charr = bestial warriors
 * Norn = celtic druid/warriors. (beorn anyone?)
 * Don't forget humans...--Swift Thief 16:25, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
 * OH yeah, monks pherhaps? Jupsto [[image:Feck_Off.jpg|19px]] 16:31, 21 March 2007 (CDT)


 * Read the text above those race illustrations on page 30: "A Guide to some of Guild Wars 2's playable races." It says some. And later it explains that A-NET is not telling the exact number of playable races yet, but they're giving us some info on a few of them.


 * This seems to suggest more than 4 playable races, maybe much more... --Deadly Lollipop 19:04, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

/rage
That plot looks crap. Also, 10 new heroes, FIFTY new pve skills, and no new profs!!!! :( &mdash;Blastedt 17:25, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
 * It's an expansion not a campaign. Remember that we are getting a totally free large update soon. The hard mode. All areas in the game are getting a suplicate version with harder monsters and better loot. Besides, the GW:EN looks great to me in all ways. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 17:33, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Fully agreed. And the no new professions thing is a very positive thing for me. --Dirigible 17:38, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
 * It not a stand alone game and optional but is the only bridge to GW2 so it’s always up to you either you wish to buy it or not. More professions isn’t always better, new professions after core were something of combinations of current professions whit a slightly different twist, about when they got to paragon ideas dyed up entirely they, end up making near exact copy of tactics based warrior whit a spear. Besides they sed themselves they can’t be bothered making up new professions and rookie areas every 6 months, how ever fresh high level content isn’t as straining to-do. Three Campaigns in Hard Mode and one expansion will have to hold for 2 years, off course upgrades will be common but probably limited. Now that you know that only Greens and Titles will be transferred you might as well work on them. Biz 17:54, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

This really angerd me, jsut as Factions almsot toally diregarded the PvE portion of the game and thus was a crappy game, this game seems to totally disregard the PvP portion of a game and also looks crappy. I wasn't expecting much better from the idiots that made Factions though. I sure as hell won't be playing this game unless I can somehow snag it for free.--68.192.188.142 17:58, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Immediate UAX... A GvG-like PvP mode that'll exist completely separate from the rest of the game (it'll actually be mantained by a dedicated team that has as focus only this mode, and not World PvP or PvE)... No more piles of professions and skills being thrown at the game every six months... How is that not catering to the PvP crowd? True, we'll have to see how that'll actually be implemented, but to say that they're not making an effort is to be completely unfair. --Dirigible 18:09, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

Yeah, it will be like Factions, except GW is a PvP GAME. This, to me, seems like a really disaterous move by ANet. It ruins everything original about GW. There will be some new cool things, but they really f'ed it up. I was hoping for Nightfall after Nightfall for expansions, not this. In other new regarding to rage, RATM is getting back together :P. I really hope they play at Lollapalooza, maybe settle my mind on this.--Nog64Talk 18:05, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

Guild wars is not a pvp game.... That may be one of its best features but everyone under rates the pve part. Contrary to popular belief factions was a decent pve addition with 2 elite missions, 2 warring nations that you could choose sides on both the PVP and PVE side of game, and a decent story line. Nightfall PVE was a bit of dissapointment IMO but that doesn't matter. Not everyone in the game likes the PVP part of it only like many regulars on this site do, so if they dont make a expansion adding a bunch of stuff for the pvp(which you don't know for sure) then don't complain, great changes to the game doesn't help the established PVP player system so what are you complaining about if it will be focused on PVE?-Counter Rant--Sefre  18:57, 21 March 2007 (CDT)]

I and many other bought GW purely for PvP. Yeah we'll dabble with PvE occasionally. But the PvE in GW isn't unique, try starwars:kotor ot many other rpgs, or better ones like oblivion. GW's PvP is the best, if you want storylines n stuff there are way better games for it, out there, basically. Jupsto 19:12, 21 March 2007 (CDT)


 * I only play the PvE of Guild Wars andenjoy it. It is unique, there is no game with similiar PvE system, and I appen to like this one. It's not the storyline, it's the game mechanics. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 19:15, 21 March 2007 (CDT)


 * Jupsto's comment is proof of my point, the PVP element is not the only element in the game, and many would argue that it's not the best either, just because it has one of the best pvp systems out there does not mean that the res of game deserves to be over looked, like gem said, its PVE is unique, and just cause you don't play it a lot doesn't mean it sucks or its like other games....--Sefre  [[Image:Sefresig.jpg|15px|]] 19:22, 21 March 2007 (CDT)
 * Well, in terms of PvE, I find the find the terrible storylines and huge amounts of instances cripplingly inferior to WoW and any other pay game, but if adjusted for no cost per month, it's obviously good. That being said, the PvP outshines any MMORPG to date, pay or not, and for that reason, many consider it a PvP game.--Nog64Talk [[Image:Yaaaay.JPG]] 19:49, 21 March 2007 (CDT)


 * I agree with nog. I dont have that many games with simular style, but try starwars:knight of the old republic. The PvE is also very different in some ways, but it is identical in others. And IMO the storylines in GW are quite un-interesting, the storylines in Kotor are like better than those in starwars films. Of course GW PvE is unique in some ways, but many rpg's are better or at least comparable. GW PvP isn't really simular to anything and is very unique. It's like a sexy fussion between games like counterstrike, which you can just log in and start killing, and interesting, complicated rpg combat, Ie magic etc. not boring guns. A-net are simply the best for insisting no monthly costs, the are changing the future of MMO's for us all. Worth buying just for that. --Hey hey asuras = yoda, anyone? I think GW2 looks like the best game ever, but EotN looks pretty tird since i'm a pvp fan, but the pve in GW2 looks like its vastly improved Jupsto [[image:Feck_Off.jpg|19px]] 20:04, 21 March 2007 (CDT)


 * Okay, let's stop this PvP vs. PvE and GW vs. other games discussion allready. Stay on topic. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 20:04, 21 March 2007 (CDT)