Talk:Necromancer Shing Jea armor/Archive

male forehead pattern
The patterns on the forehead of the headgear vaguely resemble the Chinese hanzi 中文 ("zhongwen"), which is the Chinese name for their written language.

I can see the "zhong", but I can't see the "wen" (is that right?) as it is missing the horizontal strike and the dot above. I don't see any meaning in it, either; it looks as if the artist just thought "make it look chinese" and used some strikes that look like glyphs. -- ◄mendel► 21:18, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I would say that there is more than a vague resemblance:



21:23, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * To clarify, there is a definite resemblance. That can't really be disputed. So the question should not be "Does it look like it?" but rather "Is it notable?" [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 21:26, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * So because Бє looks like Be, you would say it is? -- ◄mendel► 21:43, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Alphabet != pictographs. Remember that originally all pictographs actually did resemble their subjects. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 21:47, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * linkie
 * Looks like it, yes, is actually the character, no
 * It's not death related so I fail to see the significance, I say not notable --> Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 21:50, 25 February 2009 (UTC) I suffer from bias at this stage, though

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/051_-_gan1_-_dry.svg/120px-051_-_gan1_-_dry.svg.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d8/%E5%B0%B8-red.png/120px-%E5%B0%B8-red.png Not Zhong, but almost as similar, no? -- ◄mendel► 22:26, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * What is that, mendel, and why is it relevant? [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 22:32, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Chinese chracters that look as similar (= vaguely resemble) to the glyph on the forehead as Zhong does. -- ◄mendel► 22:35, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * What do they mean? [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 22:37, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * It's "Han" by itself. And those two are written differently because they do not extend past the top line. And yes, meaning is relevant imo. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 22:42, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The first measn "dry", the second means "door". My theory is that the artist wanted something on the forehead that looked like a chinese character, but actually wasn't one, to avoid creating unintended meaning. I mean, if it's supposed to be Zhong, why not write Zhong? -- ◄mendel► 22:47, 25 February 2009 (UTC)& 22:47, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Well then, we could do a few things:
 * Get into a lengthy discussion on Chinese calligraphy and degrees of similarity
 * Remove all trivia from the page
 * List every single character that it kind of sort of looks like
 * Search for a character it resembles that belongs on a necromancer's forehead
 * Change the trivia to "This thing looks like a thing, but it's really not" [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 22:52, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * If I may provide my input just from a couple years of Chinese lessons, that is the caligraphy (Chinese art using their characters) of zhongwen that has been stuck in a poor scanner, which Guild Wars uses for armor texturing. Doesn't really matter if it's there though because it is so vague.  ANet probably thought they were smart hiding a hidden meaning in their Factions armor.  [[Image:Ultra Dagger signature.png|Ultra Dagger]] 22:56, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * And what is the hidden meaning? Chinese language is Chinese? -- ◄mendel► 23:06, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't say that in public, you fool! [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 23:07, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I didn't really mean meaning, I just can't think of another way to say it. More like the Necromancer is labeling himself Chinese.  That's all it is.  It's Chinese art. [[Image:Ultra Dagger signature.png|Ultra Dagger]] 23:14, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you. -- ◄mendel► 23:35, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I've just read this section again.
 * I'll be honest.
 * It's not the lack of precise characters that really bothers me, it's more convenient to me, as it's a valid argument which, if successful, ends up with the same result.
 * As Mendel argues quite well, what does it mean? (I love the Chinese language is Chinese bit). This is what has driven me to constantly "battle on".
 * But, UltraDagger just might have made the best case here. He's responsible for 0 wiki drama, and made good arguments. I know nothing of such Chinese art, so I will not speak on it and imply otherwise. Necromancer is labeling himself Chinese --> this makes sense, never occured to me, and I'll accept it as valid and bow to the relevance. (Let the record show I accept well made arguments with valid points?)
 * But I can't speak for Mendel and Felix. --> Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 20:56, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * To clarify: it's not relevent per se... it makes sense and I can see ArenaNet doing so. That is why I accept it. Otherwise it just made no sense to me, and since I didn't see a meaning there for us, left by ArenaNet, it seemed like nonsense to me. --> Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 20:59, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Felix I wanted her to see that, I'm trying to send her a message
And please revert to an earlier version. I took the piss on the page, she is doing the same. You and Mendel were discussing what little parts of the "2 characters" are there, and then SHE ignores you and makes the Trivia MORE pronounced. This is getting pathetic now. --> Suicidal Tendencie 22:23, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, sorry. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 22:24, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I had expected an earlier version, not this...
 * I'm very grateful, Felix. --> Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 22:27, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Pfft, fair enough. Although I'm disappointed you did that after Felix decided not to. And my version was somewhat amusing, be honest --> Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 22:30, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * How did I make it more pronounced? I removed the second character and explained the meaning of Han and how it is relevant. But you can go around and piss on articles if you like, I'm done with you. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 22:31, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * This isn't an endurance test here. Don't lose sight of what all of us should ideally want- a relevant, interesting article. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 22:41, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * So yes, I posted something that I considered relevant and interesting in the context of Factions after compromising half of it due to claimed nonexistence. So now who is going to ban him for intended vandalism?  Yes I realize that there won't be a ban, but I'm still rather... offended?.. by the fact that he thought vandalism of a mainspace article was appropriate to illustrate some vague point.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 22:46, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Ehh, I don't endorse that action, though I guess it looked like I did when I reverted myself. It was more of "not going to get involved, let's not touch the article for a while" gesture. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 22:49, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * FELIX, someone not involved majorly in the dispute, saw it was being discussed and, as he says, decided to let the discussion end before editing the article. You got totally shot down on the 2nd character, the 1st was disputed, you went to the page yourself and devoted a paragraph to something that myself and Mendel were saying does not belong on the page at all. Ultra Dagger also stated he does not think it is relevant.
 * Felix - please correct me if I am wrong - is more trying to get the correct result as opposed to being commited to adding it to the article. You clearly do not have consensus on it being there, but you went and messed with the article itself.
 * I made an inappropriate edit, which I fully invite a sysop to ban me for, as I never once even contested the notion it was the wrong thing to do. But my options are limited. Do I roll you? No. I can't, and that, too, would be inappropriate. Do I revert you? No. Revert war ftl. What do I do? You made a simply arrogant and, at best, bemusing edit on an article out of sheer ignorance and I drew attention to it in a way that would get a Sysop on the case.
 * The article was protected? GOOD! I don't believe I've a right to edit the page (I'm drowning in bias). And I was not, until you did so yourself. You, too, suffer from bias, but refuse to give up.
 * Any meaningful or worthwile edits can be suggested on the talkpage and a sysop will adjust the page accordingly. The page is protected, for a reason, and I am grateful for that. --> Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 17:14, 26 February 2009 (UTC) And you're done with me? I'm emotionally involved but respect you, I just think your behaviour on this issue has been considerably below par.

From my talkpage right after I changed the trivia: ''I changed it. If that doesn't make you happy, remove it and forget about it. I offered a compromise, not just to you but also to everyone else involved, and I didn't think it was necessary to write it out on a talkpage first, 'it was not a malicious edit to the article. And I did it in good faith,''' while you intentionally vandalized the article simply because you disagreed. There weren't supposed to be more than 2 edits involved, including that one, to reach a final decision, it was either keep it or get rid of it and close the issue. I also think that if some people think that a piece of friggin trivia is valid, and others don't, why not leave it there and let the reader decide if it was something interesting to them or not? That was the reasoning I acted on, because I saw that about half the people agreed on "Han" possibly being there, and half didn't.  Mainspace articles are not the place to illustrate a point, and that is not something I was trying to do. Regardless, there is no reason to continue this discussion. There is nothing new to be said. RoseOfKali 19:44, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * About half agreed it might be there. That's not amazing support.
 * And don't say all of those agreed it relevent. --> Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 19:52, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * It's trivia... >_< Trivia does not need amazing support to be considered possibly interesting some visitors of the page.  But whatever.  I don't care if it stays there or not, it's not worth losing more brain cells.  RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 20:08, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * It's content if a majority of users believe it should not feature on a page... --> Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 20:14, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Everything contained in any mainspace article is "content," actually, it has nothing to do with who believes what. But at this point it doesn't matter, does it? I think this discussion should end, no matter the outcome. Everyone involved has lost. Can we please stop? If a sysop unprotects the article, he can decide whether to leave it as is, leave only Han, or remove it entirely, and none of the people currently involved here should change or dispute that decision after that. IT'S NOT THAT IMPORTANT, afterall. Also, this section of the discussion should be archived when it's done, it's of no use to any future visitors. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 20:59, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Compromise
''The headgear forehead looks like an incomplete Chinese hanzi 中文 ("zhongwen"). It refers to the Chinese written language itself.'' Can we use that? -- ◄mendel► 02:46, 27 February 2009 (UTC) & 09:43, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Male and female are the same. Otherwise, sounds good to me. Though I'd probably change to "an incomplete..." instead of "the" for whatever reason. Maybe I'm wrong. :P RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 04:07, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Changed. Entropy complained about the second sentence, I've asked Ultra Dagger whether a rephrased version would still be correct. -- ◄mendel► 09:43, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with that. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 16:47, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Why not just ''The incomplete Chinese 中文 ("zhongwen") on the headgear appears to suggest that the Necromancer is labeling him/herself as being Chinese? --> Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 16:51, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Because it's less committal. It's saying "it MAY be this" instead of "it looks like this and it may be an indication of the character". --JonTheMon 19:01, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * "Appears to suggest" is vague, similar to Weasel words. We don't know hwat it suggests, but we can give the facts as we know them and leave the reader to draw the inferences. -- ◄mendel► 23:05, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry... less committal was what I was aiming for. WTB Confirmation from ArenaNet? I know you're not saying THIS IS BLAH BLAH, but as we havn't seen ArenaNet commit to a confirmation, my view is, we should fall in line with them --> Suicidal Tendencie [[Image:Suicidal_Tendencie_Sig.jpg]] 23:41, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

(Reset indent) ''The headgear forehead looks like an incomplete Chinese hanzi 中文 ("zhongwen"). 中文 means "Chinese writing".'' This is the rephrased version. If everyone concerned likes it (better than the version up there), we can put it into the "Trivia" section. -- ◄mendel► 23:05, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Works for me.



23:12, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Did you already change it Mendel? It's fine the way it is now, the way it's stated.  I doubt it was ArenaNet's intention for it to appear incomplete, it's just the scanner they used is not high quality.  Otherwise, it does not matter to me which one you use, they both work.  [[Image:Ultra Dagger signature.png|Ultra Dagger]] 23:53, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't like the "vaguely resemble" at all, because words like these usually mean "I totally wanted to see this as a reference". You're much more definite than that though, and after reviewing chinese characters on wikimedia commons, so am I. Stating what is there and what is not ftw. Rose and Suicidal, I'd like to hear from you? -- ◄mendel► 00:35, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I like the stamp Felix. Mendel:Oh, nice, I guess I didn't notice the "vaguely" in there.  I always miss simple words like that.  [[Image:Ultra Dagger signature.png|Ultra Dagger]] 00:45, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I like the version before the stamp (and the stamp itself, for that matter :P). Clear and concise, it can be quickly skimmed and skipped if the reader so wishes, or they can follow the link and read more if it caught their attention. RoseOfKali [[Image:RoseOfKaliSIG.png]] 05:11, 28 February 2009 (UTC)