Talk:Vizunah Square (mission)

H/H failure
So I've gone through this mission roughly ten times in as many days, probably more. I hardly ever PUG, but I can frankly say that I am now very appreciative to get some humans in the other party for this mission. Even if they are like level 15 or something... It's not because they will necessarily have better builds than the hench party (though that is usually the case). The main thing that I love is how they don't follow me around and thus abandon Togo/Mhenlo to die.

Normally I'm just fine with H/H parties, no matter what mission it is. But this one in particular, it's more often suicidal than not when I pull a hench party... unless I am taking overwhelmingly strong stuff myself (imbagon, SH nukers, MMs...), there is a very good chance that fights end up into longer-than-necessary stalemates, and then Mhenlo/Togo start getting zapped with Jesus Beam etc. While I have yet to actually fail the mission or miss Master's, I've just had way too many close calls lately. The fact that the hench party won't move apart from mine causes so many problems in this mission, because it is designed to have people defending on two fronts, and only staying in one group during the last parts of fights/the very last fight...

I guess a large part of the problem is that none of the H/H, let alone Mhenlo/Togo, will bother to kite out of RoJ, and so turtling doesn't work that well. From now on I'm not taking overly defensive builds into this mission. :\ I know another part of the problem is that the hench selection is atrocious - they are bound to die a lot almost regardless of what you do, because they are just a weak party. Talon Silverwing's suicidal Healing Signet at 4 tactics gets him killed even while fighting the low-level Afflicted; Panaku is pretty fragile. In this mission, Kai Ying runs ~the same Fire Magic build as Cynn, which only aids in damage, and he's fragile. Lo Sha is suicidal in his usage of interrupts and Hex Eater Signet, often going up to the melee to use it. Su can heal herself with Soul Feast, but if you brought an MM this interferes. Sister Tai and Professor Gai are bad healers because they use highly inefficient skills and lack any real energy management (I don't know if Eve/hench cast Blood Ritual on them; that would make them a bit more effective); there is also a lack of prot monk which is really bad. Zho is the only one who can kinda take care of herself, and she is still bad. :\

Lastly, to add insult to injury, the H/H team often has multiple deaths before I can even reach them at the start of the mission (when playing from Foreign quarter). They will all stand in roughly the same spot, not moving to defend Togo or engaging the enemies before they come to them. This often results in Togo nearly dying, one of the hench running off to fight Afflicted and dying, etc etc. And these are mostly the low-level afflicted too. >.< So before the mission has even started in earnest, they have already used up valuable Resurrection Signets that won't get recharged. Blah.

Unwaking Waters doesn't have this problem at all because it is designed to have both parties bunched up and mostly attacking the same things... even though they often wipe a lot, I've never had to use the resurrection relics there. And once you get to Kuunavang, as long as your party came prepared, you'll be alright. Sigh. (T/C) 09:32, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * There are some bosses in this mission, so res sig should recharge.... Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 10:55, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Only the party who kills the boss gets the morale boost and the skill recharge. Since that is almost always your party, the hench may as well never have them recharge. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 10:58, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Didn't know that. Did you like my other answer? Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 12:03, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * In easy mode, I generally had better luck with henchmen from the other side. Henchmen may be mediocre, but that's good enough, and they're reliably mediocre--as opposed to completely awful.  They don't go AFK, run the wrong way, wipe before you can get there, etc.  If you have only henchmen yourself, then henchmen from the other side may be a little rough, but if you have heroes yourself, getting henchmen from the other side should make the mission pretty easy.  Getting a good player from the other side was better than just henchmen, but if I got a player, it probably wasn't a good one.
 * In hard mode, it's a very different story. The henchmen party from the other side would be a lot stronger, but it's not necessarily good enough.  With players, on the other hand, the people who just want you to powerlevel their heroes don't do hard mode.  With just henchmen and heroes, hard mode is doable but rough.  With players and heroes on both sides, it's not that hard.  Quizzical 17:33, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Perhaps it's due to AI tweaks they have made since then, since I can assure you that there's a pretty decent chance at least some of the hench will have died before you even reach them, and some will also die during every major fight, even the first one which is trivial (which you can tell from "death cries"). I can see their health bars somewhat, in the same way you could see any NPC's, and after an Afflicted Soul Explosion they take a massive hit (the melee ones especially, they die a lot).
 * While the mission is never really "difficult" (exception: Mhenlo/Togo getting left to fend for themselves, because I can't be in two places at once) and I've yet to lose Master's even when I take way longer to kill a wave than I should... it just makes it unnecessarily difficult. The "follow the moving player" AI is exactly as it's supposed to work, and I know they are acting just like they would in any other mission... but just due to the nature of Vizunah Square, that's not the best tactics, since unless you are really lucky and Mhenlo/Togo are standing close enough to each other so as to both be inside Wards etc., "turtling" just doesn't work with two parties in the same place. You have to spread out just a bit, engage mobs on more than one front, not let them gang up on one party too much. At all of the big fights, the arrangement is something like... one spawn point in front and one behind the party, and one more right in the middle of them. The idea is that this middle point can be quickly wiped as it's in the crossfire of both parties, so it is not much trouble. But on those other fronts, you can't just sit near the center and wait for the mobs to come to you. Too many casters stack up, because they won't advance. So when you move your party away from your front to engage them (the hench don't take that initiative at all), that leaves one side dangerously unguarded. The only time this isn't so bad is during the last big fight, because the enemies that spawn "ahead" (direction of the bookstore/shiro'ken) are small spawns throughout. So you usually have time to run back and heal Mhenlo/Togo as necessary. At the other fights, though, the enemies are more evenly distributed so there are constant problems. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 19:07, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the AI / H/H is definitely fail here. 95% of my failures here are caused by double jesus beam rape on mhenlo or togo, the others are Mhenlo and Togo dying before I had a chance to meet up with them - from both sides. Apparently Mhenlo immediately rushes forward if foreign leaves the mission, causing him to die right away.
 * I have also noticed something else, which has killed me quite a few times in HM. If I get grouped with a hench party at local, the foreign team sometimes decides to skip the last group of am fah. However, they will immediately run back to them when the cutscene is over - leaving only your party with Mhenlo and Togo against a horde of afflicted, where they usually die by earlier said Jesus beams. Mystzombie 21:52, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

MMs
I'm not certain with Hardmode, but after playing through this mission a bunch of times with and without MMs, I have come to the conclusion that unless you take multiples and just steamroll over everything (36 minions = gg) they don't really help all that much. H/H and Mhenlo will waste healing spells on them (not to mention the whole bug thing with Mhenlo chasing minions to heal them); they often will get hung up on those lone Afflicted which would normally leave you alone anyway (the ones that spawn from Canthan peasants), and I've not had any siginificant improvement in mission completion time. I still finish anywhere from 20-22 minutes, MM or not.

As far as I'm aware, many many people still swear by taking MMs into this mission (I know I used to); I'm curious if maybe I'm just doin it wrong, or it's because of the buff to RoJ, or something else, but I just don't understand how they are so highly rated. (T/C) 10:26, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * As a meatshield for Mhenlo and the other dude. When the afflicted is hurting the minions, they aint hurting partymembers and more importantly, they aint hurting Mhenlo and the other dude. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 10:51, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not a noob; I know what MMs do and why they're taken. I'm just saying though, that they are not at all essential to victory here unlike many people seem to think, and there are in fact several detriments to bring them along. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 12:18, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I suggest that if the enemy is getting so numerous and close that it can damage the VIPs dangerously, you're failing anyway. It's a bit like Assault on Beknur Harbor really: if they're threatening to overwhelm you, you're doing it wrong. If that's true, you "need" the MMs only if you're doing it wrong. See Rebirth. ;-P Keep in control and all will be peachy. -- ◄mendel► 12:26, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Assault isn't quite the same deal... there are no mission-critical NPCs to protect, and most of the foes are weak enough that you can sweep the floor with them if you take decent AoE. (My Elonian characters always take Acolyte Sousuke for precisely this reason.) I get what you're saying though. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 15:35, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Entropy, I wasn't suggesting you are a noob. Most people at vizuna square are not really good at the game (most of them are pretty newb (not noob)), and they dont have access to heroes and high-end builds. If this is the case, a minion master is a very good way of ensuring that the vips remain safe for the largest part. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 17:33, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Minion masters are by their nature very streaky. If something goes wrong and you lose all of the minions, then you're stuck with a minion master without minions exactly when you really need something powerful.  It's also possible that the change to ray of judgement makes a huge difference in the effectiveness of minions here since I've played.  Quizzical 17:46, 3 March 2009 (UTC)


 * If something goes wrong and you lose all of the minions, it can also mean up to around 1000 points of PBAoE to clumped group of enemies (Death Nova), full health bar to everyone in your party (Dwayna's Sorrow), and full energy bar to every necromancer in your party (Soul Reaping). If this was enough to kill two of your opponents, it also means you'll have 4 minions pretty soon again, unless the opponent has a way of disposing of the corpses.  IMO minions are not meant to stay, they are meant to die - much of their power is in the way they die, and sometimes also in the way they are created. Kitsunebi 06:13, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Beknur @ lvl 15 ftw. It is my opinion that people who simply level up to get past difficult spots are playing the game wrong because they're missing on opportunities to learn valuable tactical skills. -- ◄mendel► 18:51, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

There's number of tactics you can try on this mission in normal mode. Heavy AoE damage is one, overwhelming numbers of minions is one, both can work fine. Yet another is to use the large number of corpses through wells or putrid explosion, or the like. Like mentioned before, you might not have a very versatile skill selection for heroes at this point (assuming you have heroes available at all), so a lot can depend on your own professions (e.g. if you play an elementalist, you might have a solid set of elementalist skills and good understanding on how to use them). In hard mode, on the other hand, I do find that bringing a couple of MM along makes it a whole lot more doable. When playing alone with H/H party, and getting henchies from other side, it's the only composition I've managed to get hard mode masters with. Kitsunebi 05:59, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * In easy mode, if you're bringing heroes to a mission meant to be done without them, then of course a lot of things will work. In hard mode with henchmen/heroes, I tried bringing two minion masters, and found it ineffective.  There are too many critical defensive skills that you need to survive and keep the other party alive that you can't bring if you're loading up on minion masters instead.  With multiple players and a lot more heroes, you have a lot more flexibility, so bringing multiple minion masters makes more sense.  Quizzical 06:55, 25 June 2009 (UTC)
 * During the zquest days, you can easily get 2 human parties. Mine (local) had one MM, the other (foreign) had two. The local only had one monk, en she didn't even break a sweat. A shit load of minions (30 total), + 16 players, and two stupid NPC's made for one big fragfest. It was epic. Everything went KABOOM. Both parties having a Stay Young! spamming warrior helped a bit as well. Arnout aka The Emperors Angel 11:14, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Bringing PvE-only cheat codes does tend to make things easier. That's about as useful to note as commenting that consumables make things easier, too.  Vizunah Square hard mode is only hard if you're going henchmen/heroes, or matched up with incompetent players on the other side.  Quizzical 17:42, 25 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "Playing on Normal Mode makes this mission much easier" imo ;) --- [[Image:VipermagiSig.JPG|Ohaider!]] -- (contribs) &emsp;(talk)  11:53, 26 June 2009 (UTC)


 * My guild did this mission in hard mode yesterday. Our strategy was simple: outnumber the Afflicted. Asura summons, Vanguard assassins, and 5 minion masters. We synced the two groups, one with three people and the other with two. Heroes filled in the rest of the slots. It was awesome. There was only one point where >50% of the minions died, and that was against the monk boss. At times, I was able to cast Animate Bone Fiend on recharge, and successfully complete it every time. Togo only got stuck once, at which point, everyone had to run back, dragging Mhenlo with us, until he started moving. Despite that, we still got masters. In fact, I think we were within the time limit for masters in normal mode, let alone hard mode. Of course, this only works if you can sync two groups, and have at least two people in each one, so they can bring heroes instead of henchmen.
 * My advice: When you outnumber the Afflicted, ur doin it rite.
 * (btw, none of the minion masters had Blood of the Master, for obvious reasons) --Macros 18:16, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * If you have all players and heroes and no room for henchmen, this mission can be pretty easy by a lot of different tactics. And that's without loading up on PVE-only cheats, even; if you do that, it makes the mission easier yet.  Chahbek Village is pretty easy if you bring a minion master, but that doesn't mean that bringing a minion master is terribly important.  Quizzical 20:28, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I just have done masters with H/H on both sides. I brought as heroes: a Me (panic and other area stuff), a N (Minion Bomber), a Mo (Healer). Also got henchies: Mo, Rt, W (Devona), E (shock). I was a R/Rt (splinter/barrage). The other group was all henchies (didnt pay attention on which, guess they are probably always the same). Did it in my 1st attempt, 33-34 min.

New Bug with NPC's?
I've done this mission 3 times in the last month & Brother/Togo just stand there doing nothing until "something" triggers their lines. This caused the group to lose the Master's Reward. Can anyone else confirm what I noticed or provide a solution to trigger the NPC lines quicker? GW-Saikano


 * If you have a minion master, Mhenlo will often stand there healing minions and not move all the way to where he is supposed to go for quite some time, which can slow things down greatly. Quizzical 23:30, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * There's no way to trigger them earlier as far as I know. It indeed happens quite often now (for me anyways) that the dialog after the 2nd big fight won't trigger, or that it pops up 3 minutes later. And if that doesn't happen, Togo gets a pathing bug right before the bridge after that dialog. Mystzombie 10:43, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe to trigger the very first dialogue, ALL party members of BOTH parties must be within approximately aggro bubble range of Mhenlo / Togo. Other than that, just keep moving, especially your MM(s). [[Image:ShidoSig_moebius2.gif]] 17:37, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * From my experience the first dialog triggers when Mhenlo is at a particular distance from Togo, I've had it trigger while i was still standing at the boss' location. Just move the MM's very close to the gate and it works fine. Mystzombie 22:44, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh right, that's it. It's been a while since I did the mission. The reason why you should move all the party members is that NPC allies follow them, so my advice was still accurate :P. [[Image:ShidoSig_moebius2.gif]] 12:30, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Foreign Hench Bug HM
It is stated somewhere here in this discussion, that the foreign henchies sometimes skip the first group of Am Fah and run back after the cutscene. I can confirm this. Just did the mission, first great battle was flawless, but then we only had mhenlo instead of a whole group of overpowered henchies(HM), causing us to die. Thanks, that was just the 7th time i tried the mission, while I got masters on all others mission at once(except eternal grove and gyala once)212.45.63.98 19:09, October 7, 2009 (UTC)

Am Fah deaths for A Monstrous Revelation
Is it worth mentioning that Am Fah deaths count for BOTH teams for the purposes of A Monstrous Revelation? In particular the local team get credited with the deaths even though its the foreign team that kills them.Thalestis 00:43, October 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * Short answer: yes. Long answer: I would expect them to count since this is a Cooperative Mission and there's no reason they shouldn't. Foe deaths count for both teams for reaping souls; this seems roughly the same. I think we should include the note because the circumstances are so rare in which this type of thing matters.  &mdash; Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 02:05, October 23, 2009 (UTC)


 * The difference is that when the foreign team kills the Am Fah in the initial section, before the teams join in the central area, the deaths would not trigger SR for the local team, because they aren't in range. But I agree that the circumstance is unique enough that it should be noted.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 04:03, October 26, 2009 (UTC)

Quitters
Wikia shouldn't promote quitting a mission. Quitting a mission because you fear you might fail it is utterly selfish. By deserting fellow players you not only make it harder for them to complete the mission, you also give them a bad experience and more reason to stay away from the already dying cooperative playstyles. Amy Awien 18:42, August 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * By reverting Quizzical's revert, you broke GW:1RV. Just a quick reminder.
 * I do agree we shouldn't promote quitting. --Vipermagi 19:00, August 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * Suppose that you're doing a mission with one other player that you don't know. Let's say it normally takes about half an hour.  About two minutes into the mission, he goes AFK.  You wait for several minutes and he doesn't come back.  Are you morally obligated to try to complete the mission without his help?  Or would you be justified in restarting the mission and trying to complete it with the benefit of a full party?
 * Suppose that you're in Droknar's Forge and see someone selling something you want. You offer to buy it and he sends a group invite to find you.  You accept and make the trade.  He then zones the group into Talus Chute and asks you to power-level him.  Are you obligated to do so?  Would you not be justified in leaving the group?
 * How about if you're looking to join a PUG for some mission. You see someone else advertising a PUG, offer to join, and get a group invite.  Right after you join, the group leader starts the countdown to enter the mission.  You look at who is in the group and see that there aren't any monks, ritualists, or paragons, even as a secondary profession.  It's pretty obvious that the group has no hope of completing the mission.  You protest the poor group composition but are ignored.  Are you morally obligated to try your best to help the group through the mission?  Would you not be justified in refusing until the group can find a more sensible class composition, and in leaving the group to find some other if the group will not do so?
 * These aren't trick questions. They are, of course, are hypothetical situations.  One would hope that most players would be sharp enough to know that they aren't obligated to stay with a group that isn't even trying to do what they had in mind when they started the group.  That's precisely why such schemes are so rare, and remain hypothetical.  We even have a link on the main page of this wiki warning players of ways that others may try to trick them into doing things that they don't want to and shouldn't do.
 * So let's try another hypothetical situation. You want to do Vizunah Square and have the party from your side prepared.  Maybe you've got other players, or maybe henchmen and heroes, or maybe it's just you and seven henchmen.  Regardless, you want to clear the mission and move on in the campaign.  You click the button to enter the mission, wait for the timer to end and let you in, and discover that you've been paired with someone on the other side who has no intention of completing the mission or even making a good faith effort at doing so.  Are you obligated to try to complete it with just your party, knowing ahead of time that you won't get much help from the other side?
 * It's not a trick question. I wouldn't think it's even a hard question.  I say the obvious answer is that no, you're not obligated to try to power-level someone on the other side or give him a free run through or whatever he's there for.  Amy Awien apparently disagrees and says that yes, you are, or at the very least, it's somehow wrong to say that you aren't.  (Feel free to clarify your position here; you've made it clear that you're against having the page point out that sometimes abandoning a group right at the start when it's obvious that the other side won't help.)
 * There is, of course, one huge difference between this and the first three hypothetical situations: this one is very, very common.  Indeed, it's a lot more common than most of the things in the common scams page I linked above.  That's why I think it deserves a mention.  This can be a hard mission for a new player who doesn't have heroes.  Expecting players to spend a significant fraction of their attempts at the mission just playing out the string in a chance that obviously has no hope of success because the other side isn't offering much help is silly.  Pointing out that they don't have to put up with it and can save time by resetting the mission and hoping not to get paired with some leecher is thus useful.  Indeed, if everyone that the person wanting a free run through gets paired with abandons him, maybe he'll drop that approach and try to contribute himself to clearing the mission.  Encouraging players to abandon the mission and try again if the other side won't help is thus societally useful.
 * The natural place to put such a warning is on this page. It's peculiar to this mission, as the only other two party mission is far enough into the campaign that people do it far less, and low level players are very rare.  Incidentally, it's also peculiar to easy mode, as hard mode is done far less commonly, and won't allow players in who are low level and have no hope of being useful.
 * Just to be clear, I'm not advocating quitting when the other side makes a good faith effort to help you clear the mission. I'm not advocating quitting when the other side isn't terribly skilled.  I am, however, advocating quitting when the other side has no intention of beating the mission, as happens all too commonly here.  A level 12 player with three level 8-10 heroes isn't going to try to help you clear the mission.  If he were going to try, he'd have gotten to level 20 first.  He and his heroes will die in a few hits, especially against the later mobs.  He's just trying to get you to power-level him, and maybe give him a free run through if he gets lucky and you come in with massively more firepower than the mission requires.
 * As I said when reverting the page, if you're going to take away a necessary warning, then offer an alternative. What alternative do you propose?  Free power-leveling for random strangers who try to get it?  Ignoring the problem and pretending it doesn't exist?  Hoping that newbies get frustrated on this mission and abandon the game because they're too often paired with people hoping to get power-leveled?  Quizzical 23:08, August 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * Your words here:  "and discover that you've been paired with someone on the other side who has no intention of completing the mission or even making a good faith effort at doing so." 
 * The note on the page:  "you may be paired with a low level party from the other side, sometimes too low level to be of any practical use in the mission." 
 * That's not the same thing at all - "low level" doesn't automatically equate to "no intention of completing the mission". At the very least, re-word the note to say what you actually mean.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 23:43, August 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * Someone who is too low level to be able to help with completing the mission does not intend to help complete the mission. Or maybe he does the first time he tries and inevitably fails because he didn't know any better, but if he immediately tries a second time, he surely doesn't.  Let's not encourage that sort of griefing.  Quizzical 23:48, August 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * Or to go back to one of my earlier hypothetical situations, the person who goes AFK two minutes into a mission may well have intended to help complete it before he got pulled away by real life. And really intended to be useful, unlike a level 10 player in Vizunah Square.  But if he disappears so early into a mission, is not someone grouped with him justified in giving up and restarting?  The actions matter more than the intent behind them.  Quizzical 23:51, August 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd also recommend leaving the note out as it was written. I see Quizzical's point, but the way it was worded seemed a bit cynical, and really, people experienced enough to spot a griefer/leecher are familiar enough with the game to know when it is acceptable to leave the mission and don't need the guidance.  The people who would benefit from that kind of guidance are probably "low level" or at least unfamiliar with how the dual-party mission works.  To look at it another way, if it was your first time into this mission and you didn't really know what to expect, and then the other party dropped out because they thought you were too low level, you may not realize what was going on, and then you'd get frustrated because the mission was much harder with minimal allies than it was intended to be. Shadowlance 01:01, August 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * Exactly. The way the current note reads, it says, "As soon as you see the other party, if any of them are less than L20 (or whatever arbitrary number constitutes 'low level'), you may as well pack it in and restart cuz they're gonna suck it up and you'll fail anyway."  And what if the "low level" character is being controlled by a very experienced player who knows what they're doing?  You'd probably have better luck with them than with a full team of L20 characters who can't tell the difference between Togo and a signpost.  (Hm, maybe that's a bad analogy...)  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 01:10, August 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * If you don't like how it was worded, then how do you think it should be worded? Restarting if you get a worthless party from the other side is one of the most important tips for avoiding unnecessary frustration in beating the mission in easy mode, behind perhaps targeting ritualists first and positioning with the intent of dividing damage fairly evenly between the parties.  It's a hard enough mission that players who are stuck and come here looking for help won't be helped if the important advice that could have helped them is stricken from the page.
 * Perhaps I should explain where I'm coming from. I was reasonably new at the game when I did Vizunah Square the first time.  I had cleared Prophecies with each of six characters, but no character had gone beyond Vizunah Square in Factions.  I didn't have Nightfall, and hence didn't have heroes.  GWEN didn't exist.  It was just me, seven henchmen, and whatever showed up from the other side.
 * And I found the mission rather hard. My first two attempts ended in mission failure before I got a single character through.  My next four attempts at the mission after getting my first character through likewise failed.  After some failures that in retrospect were doomed right from the start because I'd get little to no help from the other party, I figured out that how strong the other party was mattered tremendously and was fairly predictable.  Getting a henchmen party from the other side was good enough to at least have a decent shot at beating the mission.  Same with getting a level 20 party from the other side.  But getting low levels from the other side meant that there was no hope at all.  I probably saved myself hours of frustration by learning to reset the mission early when I saw that the other party was pretty useless.  But I figured that out only after trying to salvage a mission attempt that I'd later learn had no hope right from the start.
 * In getting my six Prophecies characters through Vizunah Square, I failed the mission outright 13 times. Only one of those six characters got master's reward.  I'd have to come back later with heroes to get master's reward on the rest.  The only mission in the game that led to more easy mode mission failures was Imperial Sanctum, which is quite random if you only have henchmen and no heroes.  Even that mission is very fast, however; I probably lost more time on easy mode mission failures in this mission than any other in the entire game.  For that matter, there are only two missions that I failed more than 14 times in hard mode, and that's total in the process of getting ten characters through.  So this one was very tough for me.
 * I suppose that it's possible that the composition of players who do this mission in easy mode has changed since I did it. Back then, about half of the human parties I'd get paired with were too low level to be of much use.  This would have been a much better mission if placed much later in the campaign to weed out those parties, like Unwaking Waters.
 * Back then, I came looking to this wiki for help with the mission. And it was pretty useless.  The wells/wards/spirits is good advice for characters who happen to have such skills--but most don't, apart from heroes.  The "get to 20 before starting the mission" is important, but kind of falls under the category of "well, duh".  I guess the map and list of mobs can be of some use.  Other than that, there wasn't much of value on the page to someone who wants to beat the mission.  Tips that could easily have saved me an hour or more of frustration were completely missing.  When I redid the page, it was for the express purpose of putting whatever useful tactics I could find there that would save others a ton of frustration.  Abandoning a mission attempt right near the start when it was obviously doomed for lack of help from the other side, rather than playing out the string and waiting 10-20 minutes for the inevitable wipe, is such an important tactic.
 * Is that selfish? If player A asks player B for 10 platinum and player B refuses, is player B being selfish?  If so, then surely less than player A is, so player A has no right to complain about it.  If you want to complain about people being selfish, it's those wasting the time of others hoping to get a free run through or at least free power leveling who are being most selfish here.
 * Could a low level party from the other side be extremely skilled and a pretty good partner in clearing the mission? Yes, it could happen.  But how often will it happen?  Knowing to get to level 20 before doing this mission is part of being a competent player, with only the rare exception of someone trying to get as far into a campaign as possible while staying as low of level as possible.  If you get an e-mail from someone claiming to be a prince in some African country who wants your help moving millions of dollars out of the country, it might be legitimate.  But it probably isn't.
 * If you don't like how I worded it, then propose a different wording. Saying you didn't like how it was worded so it should be deleted entirely is absurd.  By that logic, why not take the cleanup tag as a reason to delete every page that features it?  Quizzical 06:59, August 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * Perhaps the cleanest comparison is to joining a pick-up group. A PUG guide that advises players to join whatever pickup group they can find and not care a bit about group composition is worse than useless.  Running a pick-up group well is largely about filtering what you'll allow in the group, so that you get a reasonable group composition and no one carrying an obviously useless or suicidal build.  That doesn't cease to be relevant just because a mission has two parties rather than one.  The performance of the other party matters just as much as that of your own.  Advocating that the page ignore this is advocating that the page not even try to help players complete the mission.  Quizzical 07:13, August 6, 2010 (UTC)


 *  "If you don't like how it was worded, then how do you think it should be worded?"  You're the one who wants to keep the note, not me.  I'm proposing a compromise in which the note could be kept if you reworded it.  Since I'm not the one who wants to keep it, I don't see why I should be the one to fix it.  &mdash;Dr Ishmael Diablo_the_chicken.gif 13:29, August 6, 2010 (UTC)

To me, it's not about whether or not leaving is justified, about hypotheticals and the likes. It's about a game documentation site basically telling you to screw people over. --Vipermagi 11:17, August 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * There's already a paragraph that says "you should be level 20 before attempting this mission," though it could be made a little more prominent. We don't tell people to rage RA if they don't get a monk. Like all situations where a player abandons their party, it's up to their own discretion to decide if it's justified or not. I don't think we should advocate one way or another, for any situation. --Macros 13:17, August 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * ^^ This, right here.  Jink  13:22, August 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * telling you to screw people over We crossed that bridge more than four years ago.  Or do you think that page should be deleted, too?  The point in question isn't whether we should say, here's how you can sabotage other people.  Rather, it's here's how you can prevent others from sabotaging you.  Just like the common scams page I linked.  What's the difference?
 * Yes, it's a game documentation site. And it documents what is likely to happen in the mission if you try it.  And it documents what you can do about it.  Or at least it used to.  Apparently that's no longer allowed.  Why does this wiki exist again, anyway?  I had the impression that mission pages are supposed to help with tactics to beat missions.  Apparently I'm wrong about that?
 * A key point that needs to be noted here is that I'm not saying, wait until halfway through the mission to bail on a useless party. Rather, it's that you can often see that the other party will be useless right at the start.  Leave right then and it will tell the other player you left.  He can leave, too, if he likes, and is hardly condemned to play out the string on a hopeless endeavor--the fate he was trying to force you into.  It's like joining a PUG, seeing that some of the players are way too low level to be useful, and leaving pretty quickly.  They're not forced to start the mission with a vacant group spot.  At worst, they can fill in a henchman.
 * Also, it's good that someone brought up random arenas. <-- finally something other than a "be nice to griefers" argument -->  In this example, the only people being "hurt" by your not trying to clear the mission when you restart when you get a group from the other side are those who weren't making a serious effort at clearing the mission anyway.  That's not often the case in PvP, is it?  The analogous situation in random arenas would be if you joined to do a PvP match and found that no one else in the match were trying to do a PvP match, so you left.  If that were common player behavior, I'd say it should be noted on the random arenas page.  I don't think it is.  Is it?
 * And yes, people who come in way too low level aren't trying to clear the mission. Surely people notice that the henchmen are level 20 before they start the mission, no?  Surely if people are far lower level than the henchmen, they realize that they're underleveled for it, no?  Maybe they don't realize how hard the mission is before trying it the first time, but I'd hope they'd figure it out pretty fast.  (Then again, ArenaNet still doesn't seem to realize that they put in the wrong level of henchmen for the Shining Blade/White Mantle quests.)  Quizzical 17:30, August 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * How about something like this? "As this is a two-party mission, having a useful party join you from the other district is important.  If an all-henchmen party or a well-intentioned human party joins you, your chances of success go up.  If a lower level human party joins you looking for a free ride through the mission, it would not be considered a breach of etiquette to leave the mission and start over with the chance of being paired with a group willing to play as a true ally."  Shadowlance 19:22, August 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Or perhaps tie into the note below it (regarding being lvl 20 before the mission) and say "Be wary of parties (both your's and the other side's) not consisting of all level 20 characters" --JonTheMon 19:34, August 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * I've combined it with a similar sentiment in the primary section that was left alone. If it's not a problem in the primary section, then surely it isn't a problem in the two party mission section.  And it kind of fits better in the two party section, too, as it's something peculiar to two party missions.
 * This argument seems rather disconnected from the paragraph in question, though, which had been in place without incident for well over two years. I can understand claiming that the end of the last sentence was too cynical (even if it was accurate).  But no one yet seems to have disputed the accuracy, relevance, or importance of the rest of the text in question.  Quizzical 20:13, August 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * The difference between listing scams and telling people to fuck someone over should be obvious. Common scams does not explicitly say "DO THIS", unlike the "leave" note. Rather, it explains things to look out for to avoid being scammed. Are you seriously oblivious to that difference?
 * Rewording it so it 'warns' players that they are likely to be left to fend for themselves if they're level 15 is fine, since it has a whole different implication. It explains how to avoid getting the other party to leave, rather than telling the other party to leave. --Vipermagi 20:25, August 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * And I'm trying to make this page explain things to look out for that are peculiar to this mission to avoid being scammed. And you protest that.
 * This is the sort of thing that I'm talking about when I said that the discussion here is throughly disconnected from the actual text in question. Please, Viper, go read what the text in question actually said before continuing this discussion.  You can read it in the page history.
 * As best as I can tell, the page has never said, if someone on the other side is level 15, you should restart. Rather, it said that if you're paired with a party too weak for your combined team to complete the mission, I'd recommend restarting.  This is kind of like how if in some other mission, all of your healers are dead, no one else has any resurrection skill, there is no morale boost available, and a wipe means mission failure, you might as well quit and restart.  The key difference is that here, the combined parties can be in sufficiently poor shape that mission completion is highly improbable even while your own party is still at full strength.  That is unique to this mission, as even in Unwaking Waters, you can resurrect the other party.
 * Does it hurt a person on the other side if you abandon a mission attempt that was surely going to fail anyway? Only if the person on the other side is there for other reasons, and not trying to complete the mission.  Indeed, if he actually wants to beat the mission, knowing that he should restart sooner saves him time, too.  And yes, trying to con some unwitting stranger into giving you free power leveling while not getting anything from it himself is a scam, don't you think?  I dare say that if it weren't something unique to this mission, it would belong on the common scams page.
 * Another critical difference here is that sometimes, having the mission in a basically uncompletable state happens right from the very start, and you can recognize it within a few minutes. Losing a few minutes of work to some griefer from the other side is a lot less costly than restarting half an hour in.

-
 * I have a few complaints about how the page is written now. First, I think it is useful to say that the final battle is doable with just a single party, but the big battle before it is the toughest in the mission.  Knowing that you should press onward if near enough to the end even if the other party has completely wiped is important information.
 * Next, using local chat to try to resolve issues is a nice-sounding sentiment, but impractical. As the page previously said, the pairing does not seem to take language or region into account.  If you don't speak a common language with the party on the other side, you can't communicate with the other side at all.  Demoting that to a parenthetical remark and then contradicting it obscures important information.
 * Furthermore, a lot of things can't be worked out by communicating in local chat. Local chat can't resurrect a party that has wiped.  Local chat can't raise the level of a party on the other side, upgrade their armor, or give them a better build.  And even if local chat could do all of that, by the time you're done chatting, your hopes of master's reward will be long gone.
 * Additionally, this being a level 20 mission is a really, really important point. As stated now, the page gives a mealy-mouthed line line that basically says, it's easier if you're level 20.  Well, duh.  The Frost Gate is easier if you're level 20.  Jokanur Diggings is easier if you're level 20.  The difference between this mission and those is that this one is play balanced under the assumption that you're level 20.  Someone who is level 10 is plenty strong enough for The Frost Gate or Jokanur Diggings, as those are tuned for lower levels.  This mission assumes that you're level 20, and if you're lower level than that, you're not merely making the mission harder than it could theoretically have been.  You're making it harder than it is supposed to be.
 * And if you're too far below level 20, you're likely going to cause mission failure and waste the time of someone on the other side who actually wants to beat the mission. If you try Pogahn Passage or Dunes of Despair at level 10 and fail, then so what?  You wasted your own time, but no one else's, unless perhaps people agreed to group with you knowing that you were far too low level for the mission.  There are things that are unlikely to succeed that I'll try on my own, but I won't drag others along for them.  Quizzical 06:39, August 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't think the previous text made clear anything mentioned above. It was tough to parse, repeated minor issues at the expense of important points, and, in my opinion, was weak in its recommendations. I have rephrased the text to address some of the points above (although I don't personally agree with all of them):


 * I think chat is a significant (and overlooked) component of two-party missions and I have used it successfully several times to reach masters NM/HM. It just doesn't take that long to either resolve issues or determine that it's going to be faster to restart. I've yet to encounter another team that couldn't communicate quickly in English. Of course it's not going to help after a wipe; you chat in order to work better together, thus preventing wipes.
 * The issue isn't which battle is the toughest, it's whether a team wipe means the second party should also resign. Those who have done the mission multiple times know whether they can handle the next battles or not. Those who are new should probably resign. I don't think it helps newbies to know which battle is the hardest b/c I've seen plenty of otherwise competent groups go down in the supposedly easier final battle.
 * I think there are actually three points in the mission when teams should reconsider moving forward (whether or not there's a wipe): (a) when Mhenlo & Togo get together; (b) at the first pop-up battle; and (c) at the second pop-up battle (the penultimate). At each of these, the two teams can either restrategize or resign if they are having trouble or end up with high DP. (This is one of the ways in which early chats pay off.)
 * Regarding levels and design: The mission might be designed for L20, but it wasn't designed for heroes or NF/EotN or EotN's title skills. Here, the point seems to be that it's bad for the other team if your party has several < L20 characters. This makes it about communication, not about experience. It's not much different than informing teammates that you have a survivor candidate or that you aren't familiar or that you are trying a new build...anything that could impact the team's ability to succeed. I've rephrased to compromise a bit between my world view and the designed-for-L20 view.


 * If the new phrasing doesn't do the trick, then please offer an alternative that is more than a reversion to the original (as, in my opinion, that didn't do the trick either). Thanks &mdash;Tennessee Ernie Ford ( TEF ) 09:56, August 8, 2010 (UTC)

The page stated:. In such cases, it is much easier to restart the mission than to try to give. Nowhere does it suggest or recommend anything. It just tells you to; that's what "it is" implies.

However, you seem to be missing my point. My point is that it suggests leaving, which in and of itself shouldn't be on a wiki. --Vipermagi 10:25, August 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Looks good, TEF. Looks like something I was trying to write but couldn't think of how to phrase it :P IMO, the two most important things to note are: why being level 20 for this mission is particularly important, as opposed to any other mission, and the consequences if you're not. That includes both complete and utter failure as you get crushed under the weight of hundreds of higher level enemies; ripped limb from limb as you, yourself, transform into an afflicted monster, raving mad and enslaved to the will of Shiro, and... and the other team leaving. --Macros 15:32, August 8, 2010 (UTC)