User talk:Honorable Sarah

Secondary profession for a warsassin
Assassins using axes suck. Please don't put notes like that in, as they give the wrong idea to fresh assassins. -Auron  20:51, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * i recall a very effective build using cyclone axe, sharpen daggers, and high critical strikes. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 20:52, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Just because it isn't the current popular build in HA doesn't mean its not viable. --Deathwing 20:55, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * which was my point with this whole campaign. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 20:55, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Assassins. Using. Axes. Suck. This has nothing to do with HA. It has to do with knowing this from personal experience. I've run an assassin through all three campaigns and in HA/GvG/RA/AB etc etc, and I can tell you that assassins using axes suck. What more do you want? Should I suggest bringing a Hammer next, because hammers do higher crits than axes? When do we draw the line between "it works" and "it is what sins should be doing?" -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 20:59, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * then offer some qualifing advice, if i though of it, so will some newbie sin, and he won't know better unless we tell him so. having not run a sin/axe build, i can't speak to it's effectivness, but i'm sure someone will try it and we should have an answer, not a blank spot. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 21:03, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * So wait, we need to fill it with equal crap via telling them every combination not to use? That makes zero sense. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 22:06, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * no, just address the major suckness, minor suckness can be ignored (like long splits or similar), just try to leave something useful for the prospective A/W to read, ok? no "X sucks, Y good, Z good" --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 22:09, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Take a look at the A/W section I left. It gave all the advice even the pro A/W's use; warrior IAS for increased DPS, and sparing spammable adrenaline skills (i.e., Fear Me) because assassins double-strike and build adren so fast. We seriously don't need to include "use axes," because that goes against everything an assassin is and does. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 22:15, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Aurons right Sarah, Sin axes are frowned upon everywhere. Readem (talk *contribs ) 21:01, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * To be honest, I would rather have a new assassin with an axe than a new assassin with Death's Charge. --Deathwing 21:04, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * A simple statement (but more polite) to the effect of "Assassins not using Daggers, Bows, or Scythes are regarded as stupid. Assassins bringing teleports without defense or retreat skills are regarded as dead." might fit here. --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]]    22:11, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Even bowsins and scythesins are gimmicky and don't deal as much damage as daggersins, even though they might be fun to use. I left the scythe and bow comments in even though they aren't the best of the best, because they're fun to use (unlike axesassins, which suck and are not fun to play). Heh, I had fun leveling a pet up with my A/R bowsin gimmick (hearty jahai rats ftw), but I honestly would not recommend that build to someone starting a sin. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 22:23, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * They're gimmicky, yeah, but aren't sins gimmicky to start with? -210.3.39.32 22:27, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Yes. Sins are cheat mode. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 22:39, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * I wouldn't suggest any new player start as an Assassin, Paragon, Dervish, or Mesmer, TBH. --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]]   22:29, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * But sadly, many people want to be a ninja. So they chose an assassin. Teleport in and kill them before they know what hit them right? like a ninja? -.- --Deathwing 22:31, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Ever noticed how ninjas first spend 5-10 years of their life practicing self defense? A new Assassin looks exactly like a Ninja would if they didn't have that practice. They'd jump right up to you, impale themselves on your sword, and wonder what went wrong. --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]]    22:34, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Dervish, maybe, but why paragon? The class that can C-Space and still deal damage about equivilent to a sword warrior, spam chants and shouts, and not worry about positioning and over-extension. Difficult? Oookay. There has already been a 7 (or 9?) page on why Assassins suck in PvE at guru. It's pretty sad how people insist that Mesmers and Assassins are "unappreciated" classes when they basically aren't needed in PvE. Usable and "Needed" or even "Good" are different. -210.3.39.32 22:33, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * I never said any of them were bad. I merely said new people should not play them.  And Paragons, at one time, were good.  After the nerfs, a Ranger beats them hands down.  Barrage > any Spear Skill around.  And Monks > nerfed Chants. --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]]    22:36, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * I'm not saying that they are good, read what I said. I said it's a brain dead class. Both in PvE and PvP, it's pretty much pressing T 1-2-3, and using chants as necessary, which is why it's good for a begginer. As for a ranger better.. barrage? Ha... ha. Seriously, using a bow for DPS is a lost cause. Warrior, being the heaviest damage dealer, at least a hell lot better than a ranger, and then the paragon, having a very similar DPS... let's see what that makes the paragon... -210.3.39.32 22:40, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Don't make me hit you over the head noting that Barrage + Splinter Weapon deals more damage in one shot then that Paragon can deal in 20. Anyway, I think I'm getting a bit touchy, so I'm off to bed. --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]]   22:42, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Only against mobs, in which case you'd be better off with SFs and MSes. Against straggling foes, even if you hit 2 at the same time, a paragon is going to deal more damage simply due to better IAS, Attack Speed, and damage. Barrage is around a shot per 2 seconds, plus the lag due to recharge, /W means no Conjure, and /Rt means time spent on casting, no vampiric, and certainly no conjures. It has no deepwound, no real spike. Plus on the interrupts though.
 * Try staying alive till VoD on a paragon. Get Conjure, SoL, Cruel Spear, Harrier's Toss. Fun fun fun. -210.3.39.32 22:52, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * And then you get assassins, with the highest DPS in the game... fun stuff. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 23:04, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Newbie assassins are usually dead, which equates to the lowest possible DPS :( (edit) new to guild wars, not new to assassin --Deathwing 23:08, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * To Auron- of course, "gimmick" has a negative connotation to it for a reason. Assassins are also one of the easiest to counter, speaking of Shield Bash, Holy Veil, Hexbreaker, Dshot/Savage/Wail/Interrupts, and Diversion, due to their reliance on hexes, and certain skills to deal any damage at all, and then you also have what must be the easiest spikes to catch.. well, kinda.-210.3.39.32 23:11, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * I disagree. They aren't as tough as, say, a warrior, but warriors are globally countered by Aegis etc whereas Assassins are not. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 23:18, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Ah, perhaps (sorry Sarah?), but it's been argued: that anti-warrior skills are so popular is a testament to their effectiveness~ not to mention that warriors are far harder to counter than sins -still-. You have blinds snares speed boost etc to counter warriors, some of those apply to sins, some don;t (shadow step), true, but these counters aren't hard counters in the sense that there is no fucking way dragons can win against archers, carriers can own EMP + BCs, and anything aginst mammoth tank spam. Mirror of Disenchantment, Powerleak, Powerblock, RC, Hexbreaker, and so on are your friends. In fact, nothing gives you a faster wipe than a melee/physical heavy build and a power block on an LoD on the infuser or Aegis from the prot. They aren't gimmicky in the sense it's how well you play and how well you counter and counter the counter that counts, whereas Assassins is whether you happen to have holy veil, return/shield bash or something like that near you. I also don't think sin spikes are anywhere as lethal as people put it without a shame/gale or something, but it's also less versatile, speedy, and in some cases unpredictable. Eh, I mean you can kinda guess when he's almost going to jump again, whereas a bunch of warriors/paragons can beat a squishie to pulp without really using any skills. If they do that, and you infuse, 10gold if you can guess who they are going to use the skills on.
 * lol, I talk too much. /shutsup. -Silk Weaker 04:14, 9 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Get off my lawn! --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 23:23, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * But I was using this discussion to Defy Boredom... --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]]   23:26, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * But Zerris, you do that for conversation in general. Readem (talk *contribs ) 00:38, 17 May 2007 (CDT)

bitter was auron
Okay, time to revive the discussion. Basically, Sarah, I cleaned up the article; you reverted and, to be frank, totally fucked it up. I cannot revert without breaking 1RV, so all I can do is plead to your sanity to remove stupidass shit like Apply Poison and Cyclone Axe on a warrior. -Auron  23:31, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Whoops, I'm talking about the Warrior one this time. In case you didn't notice, I only pruned the articles on classes I am very experienced playing; please don't mindlessly revert, especially when that means re-adding stupid shit. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 23:31, 8 May 2007 (CDT)

"although popular, a Necromancer using Fire Magic is rarely effective, and often disparaged by more experienced players." what the hell dude? why would you even comtemplate adding notes like that? &mdash; Skuld 02:44, 9 May 2007 (CDT)

A Necromancer using Fire Magic? I haven't even seen that in RA. --   06:36, 9 May 2007 (CDT)


 * The uncalled for attitude of an admin non-withstanding right now and I will comment on that on his page, I came across this where Auron stated Sarah she does not care for the efforts to make these secondary profession pages. If that is the case, then she is causing premeditated disruption to the wiki. I would have believed she actually thought what she was adding was what she thought was best for the article(s) until I read that. After reading that, however, any more disruptive behavior to edit those pages into some wacky circus of off-the-wall ideas just to confuse players looking for help from a user that doesn't even care about the articles, and I will enact administration action to make sure the quality of those articles are being improved instead of being hindered by any individual. &mdash; Gares 10:35, 9 May 2007 (CDT)


 * You do realize how incredibly unfair what you just said is, don't you?
 * "I would have believed she actually thought what she was adding was what she thought was best for the article(s) until I read that."
 * "That" being:
 * "Talking to Sarah in-game has revealed that she does not give a damn about our efforts."
 * So, you're warning with administrative action based on a subjective evaluation of intentions from Auron, who's one of the main protagonists of this conflict? Of course he's going to say that she doesn't give a damn about their efforts, she's stated it herself on the wiki that she doesn't want those articles to be only about what "top" PvPers think they should be like. You are threatening with blocking over a content dispute, failing to acknowledge that the guy whose words you're listening to is the same guy that just walked all over GW:NPA by spitting all kinds of colourful verbiage towards the person you are threatening to ban.
 * I didn't even want to get involved in this stupid issue, but H.S. hasn't posted in two days, and I'd much rather say something now hoping that it's not too late, than risk letting Auron and his merry band drive away from the wiki someone who disagrees with them using all sorts of unorthodox manners, including intimidation via trollish attacks and lynch mobs. Adding an unfair blocking warning from a sysop on top of that is over the line, I'm afraid. You want to see disruptive behaviour? User talk:Skuld:
 * "We're clearing out the crap. Please don't re-add the crap, Sarah.""Are you high on stupid juice?" "Stop adding dumb things sarah, we're trying to create some decent articles, not crap-strewn abominations."
 * Looking at the discussion above here and on Skuld's talk page I see a good faith contributor trying to find a compromise with the other side, and Auron's posse howling back not giving an inch. Your warning here is terribly out of place and unfair, in my opinion. --Dirigible 16:11, 11 May 2007 (CDT)
 * I got annoyed at the "don't do this notes" and flipped. Sorry about that Sarah. &mdash; Skuld 16:20, 11 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Sorry if I caused any hassle (I do that a lot ;) I was just concerned with the information we were giving out to the less knowledgeable players. No harm intended really, but just in case, I am sorry =) (First time using the smiley lolz). Readem (talk *contribs ) 17:07, 11 May 2007 (CDT)
 * It's been a while, I know, but I have been away and I feel this is unresolved on my end. The one thing I know about Auron is that he saves everything a person says. He likes to quote my sayings to him that I had said 2 or 3 months ago, so when he says someone sais something, I believe him. Also, while she possibly ignored the comment, Sarah could have disputed the fact that she said that. After all that, I value the integrity of the wiki above all else. Notice that in my last sentence from my first post, it was not directly aimed at Sarah, but as a notice to whomever. And that's all is was...a notice. I do not threaten, I do not like the word threaten, and I take offense when someone thinks I am threatening someone.
 * Now, this is to Sarah and no one else from her comment on my talk page. I am sorry you felt my comments were out of place and made you upset. My comments on the site are aimed towards keeping the peace and integrity of the site and nothing more. You are right about being cold though. When it comes to things involving disputes or the integrity of the wiki, I do not let my feelings get in the way thus trying to step back and become unbiased. That kind of detachment will not be found here. If I did not see the bigger picture, I apologize, but you can ask others that I will get on them on the wiki, yet they are still my friends when the day is over. I've banned Auron before and got on him about this when it occurred, yet he is still my friend. When I wrote my first post, I was more disappointed that you would say something like that and the admin action notice was not aimed at you. Blocking you was not even on my mind when I was writing. I still consider you a friend regardless. &mdash; Gares 10:58, 23 May 2007 (CDT)

Female
Aww, I want pictures! &mdash;Sig mA  09:57, 9 May 2007 (CDT)
 * O.o.... ~Readem
 * o.O --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]]   17:27, 15 May 2007 (CDT)
 * 0.O --Renegade26 05:44, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

Darn.. I wanted pictures too.. They don't have to be naked or anything, you know. xD lmao (All in fun and more of stupidity) Your buddy! (LOL) --Crimson Remnants - PWN3D! 12:49, 25 May 2007 (CDT)
 * you are all offically wierdos --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 13:04, 26 May 2007 (CDT)
 * 0.o--Renegade26 13:24, 26 May 2007 (CDT)
 * I apologize for my Gender... >_> --[[image:rollerzerris.jpg|50x19px]]   14:14, 26 May 2007 (CDT)
 * o.O--Renegade26 03:09, 27 May 2007 (CDT)

Image copyright problem
Thank you for uploading the files listed below. GuildWiki takes copyright very seriously, and the images you have supplied are missing information on its copyright status. The images will be deleted after 7 days, unless the copyright status is determined for the license and the source of the images. Please review Image use policy and add a copyright tag to their image description page.

Thank you for your cooperation.

The following is a list of files that need attention: -- Xeon 08:57, 11 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Image:"Ni!".jpg
 * delete it. tracking down the frame grab and showing it was from a fair use site for an 11 month old image isn't worth the time.--Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 22:01, 11 May 2007 (CDT)
 * and stop plastering my talk page with that oververbose template trash. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 22:02, 11 May 2007 (CDT)
 * You can NEVER kill the spirt of the Knights that say Ni! Solus  [[Image:DiscipleSymbol2.jpg|19px]] 04:34, 12 May 2007 (CDT)

GPL
Do you really mean the GPL? While it's not strictly a software license, the way it's written makes it confusing or non-sensical for things that aren't software. --Fyren 00:52, 20 May 2007 (CDT)
 * GPL, Gnu General Public License. seems to have a hearty following over here --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 01:01, 20 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Less than 600 files out of 762k seems more like people not understanding the GPL or using it when they probably meant the GFDL. --Fyren 01:05, 20 May 2007 (CDT)
 * I came to this talk page right now to ask the exact same question as Fyren above, whether you really meant GPL and not GFDL. Using the GPL for images is icky, since you need to make available the "source code" of the images. This is usually interpreted as the .psd file, or whatever you were using to create the image, but it's still vague. There's other copyleft licenses which are more suitable for this purpose (f.i. the GFDL).
 * Furthermore, I'm not even sure you can release those pictures as GPL at all. They're just screenshots from GuildWars, I think the copyright is still with ANet. You can at most claim fair use, but relicensing them under a free license doesn't seem right to me. --Dirigible 03:08, 20 May 2007 (CDT)
 * have i mentioned how much i dislike bureaucracy? --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 11:02, 20 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Those are copyright, you dont own the rights to screenshots. -- Xeon 11:04, 20 May 2007 (CDT)
 * OMFG! I DON'T CARE AND I'M NOT CHANGING THEM ALL AGAIN! --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 11:10, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

skill quick references
Hi, do you think it's a good idea to remove the legend and TOC from the skill QR articles? The legend isn't exactly redundant because the icons are technically not explained. They are the same as in the game, yes, but that doesn't fit "redundant" in the context of the article. However, what's out of the question, IMHO, is that the TOC is useful and necessary for quickly navigating these articles and should not be removed. Would you object to reverting your changes? --Roland of Gilead (talk) 17:18, 20 May 2007 (CDT)
 * hover over the icons, they have explanitory text. click any of the icons, they link to the correct articles. all the legend does is get in the way. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 22:33, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

Armor pic
Hi, we meet again ;) Ty for updating armor with grey pics. One problem, you have a horrible background.  You can't see the armor well with a dark background.  There are plenty of place on battl island that have a blue background or a sandy background that would fit better with dark armor.  Pm me if you can't find it but I choose near the master of enchantment.  Ty &mdash; ├ A ratak ┤  10:45, 22 May 2007 (CDT)
 * go read the talk page, where that was already sugguested, then look here at the next set of pictures which abide by this sugguestion. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 20:52, 22 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Sorry then. I should stop editing from work, I don't pay enough attention. ;)&mdash; ├ A ratak ┤  21:03, 22 May 2007 (CDT)
 * One more thing though, don't use post process effects if you can. Make everything blurry and whitish.&mdash; ├ A ratak ┤  21:04, 22 May 2007 (CDT)
 * see, i though post processing was making a better image, i usually play with it off. turned it on only for the pics. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 23:16, 22 May 2007 (CDT)

Those Female Ranger Druid's pics look awesome :) -Auron  00:46, 24 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Oh, and you can just leave a list of the old pics on my talk page or somewhere (here, maybe) and I'll delete em, so you don't have to put tags on each. -Auron [[Image:Elit Druin.jpg|19px||My Talk]] 00:48, 24 May 2007 (CDT)
 * if i don't tag them while i'm switching stuff, i'll forget to later. i'll see what i can do about a conglommed list thou for next time thou. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 00:49, 24 May 2007 (CDT)
 * If the armor don't have gray pic they should be maybe no yes.&mdash; ├ A ratak ┤  23:27, 29 May 2007 (CDT)
 * i'm kinda weighing the cost of a reshoot (which requires extra coin) vs the color objection. i think i'm going to go back and mark the cheap armors less forgivvingly in a few minutes, but i want to do everything first. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 23:28, 29 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Ok but we worked hard to come up with a good S&F and that project was about gallery fitting that S&F. It's hard to let our baby go ;)&mdash; ├ A ratak ┤  23:31, 29 May 2007 (CDT)
 * i know. be forgivving. i'd rather have 90 ok galleries then an incredible obsidian and 89 horrific ones. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 23:33, 29 May 2007 (CDT)

Thanks Sarah
I just got your message on my talk page. My first comment left there. I've been sort of trolling around user pages for forever. I need to make a thanks section, but I'm making it like that because it's similar to a website I'm designing right now, so I'd rather work on my UserPage than make money doing a job ;) Anyways, thanks for the comment.  Kami No Kei! 01:34, 25 May 2007 (CDT)

Hey, thanks for your comments on the Survivor Title Guide page. I appreciate your disdain for the title, and many of those who attempt it. I mistook your lack of concern about the title for disrespect and I apologize for that. Thanks for your comments, though, and thanks for explaining. Kami No Kei! 16:59, 9 June 2007 (CDT)

Elite factions armor
I thought was correct in moving it. Did I move it and was it moved back? Did I incorrectly rename it? I feel like I'm trying to continue editting it an the redirects are pointing back where it originally was. Is it Warrior Ascended Kurzick armor or Warrior Elite Kurzick armor? Is there something I can be doing more correct to help with teh armor moving? I've been trying to mnove the pages and make teh galleries follow. I've been trying to eliminate the middle of the doudle redirects and all references to them. Perhaps you can direct me to something more useful I can be doing that doesn't step on toes or need someone following me. Or am I just crazy? lol. &mdash; JediRogue  15:25, 26 May 2007 (CDT)
 * i have no idea what he just said. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 15:26, 26 May 2007 (CDT)
 * She. Anyway, I think I'm just confused. I've moved Warrior Ascended Kurzick armor to Warrior Elite Kurzick armor. I then moved the galleries. But when I went to edit the gallery pages I was redirected back to the Ascended armor. I didn't see anything in recent changes sayng it was moved back. I saw my own changes moving it however. You were the last person to edit this before me and I was hoping you knew. Perhaps having corrected me. Am I just crazy? Perhaps you could have a look at it and tell me if I did it wrong. The move log says I was the last person to touch it. Thanks. The pages in question are Warrior Elite Kurzick armor/Female (and male) which I moved but appear to be just redirects. I'm afraid I'm having a little trouble expressing myself. I've kind of confused myself quite a bit here. &mdash; JediRogue  [[Image:JediRogueSig.jpg]] 15:35, 26 May 2007 (CDT)
 * the short answer is "don't worry about redirects right now. move the page where it's supposed to go". --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 15:36, 26 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Ahh, I think I see what the problem was. Thanks a bunch. Thought I was going nuts. Are there any areas I can work on where I'm less likely to get all confused? LOL&mdash; JediRogue  [[Image:JediRogueSig.jpg]] 15:37, 26 May 2007 (CDT)
 * i'd start with Monk armor and make sure all those links point to the correct name. don't worry about moving the pages, just fix the links. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 15:39, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

Contest
Meh, thought this would be fun. The goal is to find a mystery message I have hidden somewhere on either PvX or Guild Wiki. Using clues I have hidden, you can find the message. Just something to do if you are bored, which I am sure you are :p. First Clue is on my PvX Page, look careful nd you'll find it. Readem (talk *<font color="Black">contribs ) 02:00, 28 May 2007 (CDT)

You're Invited
To version 2 of my Skill Design Contest. It can be found on PvXWiki | here. *Defiant Elements*  +talk  13:12, 6 June 2007 (CDT)

Update galleries
I noticed you've added a cleanup tag to Necro Elite Luxon Female. The template can handle images with the old names correctly now. Do they still need to be moved for accuracy? Because most of the other ones just added the new parameter to the template so the images don't need to be moved. I thought I'd ask in case you knew about it and still thought they should be moved. &mdash; <font color=#0776CA>Rogue  23:59, 8 June 2007 (CDT)
 * updated, clearly not --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 17:53, 9 June 2007 (CDT)