Talk:Guild Wars Nightfall

Info from Games Convention considered "official"?
How do we treat 3rd party reports from Games Convention? If ANet gave a presentation and somebody else writes a report, do we consider the info in the report as "official" enough to add it to the article? I'm referring for example to features revealed in the PC Games report, like the option to save builds or improved party formation. -- 09:40, 24 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I say we wait for this... See Below --Midnight08 10:37, 24 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I was aware of the press release when I typed the question. The press release doesn't mention the features. So what shall we wait for? --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 13:00, 24 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I would guess Magazine articles would be official, but word of mouth would be less so, harder to ensure an accurate representation from a word of mouth source. While Magazine exclusives on the other hand are provided by the developers. For those i would still note that the data is coming from a 3rd party. Like Internet articles. --Midnight08  13:40, 24 August 2006 (CDT)


 * If multiple sources have the same information, I think we should add it. Even two sources is enough. But only one source might be questionable, although I think they have only correct info. Magazines on the other hand have had a lot of mistakes in the past so I don't trust them. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 13:48, 24 August 2006 (CDT)


 * i think we should look at it like this: 1 source: unconfirmed speculation; 2 sources: unconfirmed, no speculation; 3 or more sources: confirmed;

Press Release - August 24 2006
ArenaNet and NCsoft Announce October 27 as Global Release Date for Guild Wars Nightfall

Box Art Debuted and Premium Items Announced for Collector's Edition

August 24 and 2006 (BELLEVUE and WA) - ArenaNet® and NCsoft® today announced that Guild Wars Nightfall TM and the next game in the award-winning and critically-acclaimed Guild Wars® franchise and will be available in stores worldwide October 27 and 2006. The news was announced today from the Guild Wars Factions TM World Championship in Leipzig and Germany.

In this third Guild Wars campaign and players must fight to hold back the night as a mad ruler attempts to free an outcast god and bring darkness to the continent of Elona. But players won't fight alone. Guild Wars Nightfall introduces new customizable Heroes who level up and follow player instructions in combat and use skills and equipment of the player's choosing. These Heroes will follow the player through savage coasts, ancient monuments and poisonous deserts during an epic story that spans twenty missions and hundreds of quests. And for the ultimate one-on-one challenge and competitive players can choose to enter the new Hero vs. Hero Battles and where they group with a custom team of Heroes and fight against other players from around the world and their customized groups of Heroes.

Guild Wars Nightfall will be available in both Standard and Collector's Editions. The highly-coveted, limited run and Collector's Edition will include the Guild Wars Nightfall game as well as a Making of Guild Wars Nightfall behind-the-scenes DVD and a collector's art book and collectible skill pins, a character mini-standee and a poster-sized map of Elona and the Guild Wars Nightfall soundtrack CD and more.

Guild Wars and an instant bestseller worldwide upon its release in April 2005, and Guild Wars Factions and the number one game in both North America and Europe earlier this year and are global online roleplaying games. Guild Wars Nightfall continues the tradition of inviting players to immerse themselves in an epic storyline centered in a vibrant fantasy setting. Eager fans can get the Guild Wars Nightfall Prerelease Bonus Pack in stores on September 15, and the Guild Wars Nightfall Standard Edition and Guild Wars Nightfall Collector's Edition on October 27 and 2006.

(please excuse minor grammatical errors i'm at work and had to use google transilator o bypass the proxy...)

from Here --Midnight08 10:38, 24 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Gamespot also has a relese. They confirm, that we'll have 20 Story missions, so it looks like the world will be larger then Cantha (13), but still smaller then Tyria (25). [Source] &mdash; Poki#3 [[Image:Poki.jpg|20px|My Talk Page :o]] 04:58, 26 August 2006 (CDT)


 * I don't think the number of missions and the size of the world scale at all. In Prophecies, there are a LOT of explorable areas not related to missions.  In Factions, we start seeing missions overlapping with explorable areas.  Factions even had two different areas phyiscally being on top of each other.  What is to prevent two missions from using the exact same map?  Or turning every other explorable area into a mission?  You can easily hit 30 mission mark while having a world smaller than Cantha. - 06:22, 26 August 2006 (CDT)


 * Lets atleast try to be positive. They promised that Nightfall will be more PvE oriented, so I hope they'll have a large world. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 06:26, 26 August 2006 (CDT)

Future Events
Since I haven't read any information about this matter yet: GameStar, the largest german games magazine, states in their upcoming issue that there will be a Nightfall PvE Preview Weekend from September 22nd to September 24th. This sure can't be called 'official confirmation', yet they are in contact with ArenaNet so I would put at lest some confidence in this date. --MRA 17:48, 26 August 2006 (CDT)
 * I belive it can become true, since Factions PvE preview event accured approx. 1 month before it got released. --weby 19:49, 26 August 2006 (CDT)

I'm very new to editing anything, I hope I didn't do anything wrong here. I'd like to say that the PVE preview event is confirmed for Sept 22nd, source would be PCGAMER magazine, as well as a free mission and mini figure included in the issue. There is a very large review that lists the date of the event, and your access to the mission during it. Again, sorry if I did something wrong, just felt I could finally contribute to a great site I enjoy quite a bit.


 * You did nothing wrong. But, sorry, a magazine article doesn't count as "officially confirmed". Not too long ago a date that was "confirmed" by the magazine PC Format was denied to be correct by ANet. So we learned the hard way to be strict about it: It's confirmed only if announced directly by ANet or NCsoft. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 10:55, 8 September 2006 (CDT)

Okay, well I just figured I'd add it, and the fact it contained a mission that was designed for owners of the magazine which was to take place on a certain few days, I figured it'd help. I am sorry about that and thank you for letting me know. Perhaps Guildwiki should add some of the info contained in the magazine on the site, things such as the mini figurine, and the special mission(broken toy quest).

New offscreen movies
i have links for new offscreen ingame's movies:

New Ingame Mission from GC

New Login Screen --Ofer1992 11:59, 29 August 2006 (CDT)

Archive?
This talk page is now nearly a dozen pages long on my monitor and twice the recommended maximum size of 32 kb. I think we should archive everything before Liepzig and the announcement of the release date. -- Gordon Ecker 02:37, 31 August 2006 (CDT)
 * Be BOLD, do it. =) --Xeeron 11:59, 4 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Done. -- Gordon Ecker 21:17, 4 September 2006 (CDT)

Heroes?
I'm thinking Guild Wars gone pokemon with this stuff. Seems like a VERY fun and VERY grand idea. Kamahl 14:54, 5 September 2006 (CDT)


 * *wants pokeball to capture Glint, Kuunavang or Shiro*
 * Seriously though, I'm really looking forward to being able to have a mesmer henchman that spams interrupts faster than humanly possible like those damn Phantoms. The one thing I'm worried about is that it sounds like the choice of heroes may be permanent and irreversible. Players can change their attributes, skills, secondary professions, equipment, factions, parties, guilds, alliances, guild halls and pets with varying amounts of effort and cost, and foreign characters can play through missions that take place chronologically before they're supposed to have reached the continent, I don't see why they shouldn't be able to replace their super-henches. Sure, it would make sense if they had some restrictions, such as only allowing hero replacement in Elona's version of the Divine Path, requiring you to level replacement heroes like you have to level replacement pets or having some kind of fee on par with the cost of a crafter weapon or a full set of 1.5k armour, but I think there should be some way to replace henchmen. -- Gordon Ecker 23:33, 5 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Reminds me of missionaries from Diablo 2, actually... 204.112.156.118 22:56, 15 September 2006 (CDT)
 * u cant control and ser skills for the d2 henchies...--Midnight08 01:42, 16 September 2006 (CDT)

Does anyone know if you will be able to take heroes into Factions and Prophecies?

Features
I'm writing here, 'course ow the "Only features that are officially announced by ArenaNet will be posted here!" clause ^^;

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/guildwarscampaign3/news.html?sid=6157129

The info i think we might add are the "4 new guild halls" and the "300 new skills" part. Gamespot's Previous where proven throughtful, so can we add that? &mdash; Poki#3 23:23, 5 September 2006 (CDT)


 * It's not officially confirmed, but it is coming from ANet, and if ANet links directly to the article from the front page of guildwars.com that's definitely some kind of endorsement. I think we should add a separate section near the bottom containing unconfirmed / inderect information from ANet. -- Gordon Ecker 23:43, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

Skills
I just noticed that no one's added skill descriptions from the Nightfall preview at the Liepzig convention. After the Factions press event in Seattle back in March, we got the names of a fair number of new skills for the core professions, as well as some rough descriptions. -- Gordon Ecker 23:53, 5 September 2006 (CDT)

Bonus Pack and Collector's Edition Content
Tetris, why would you cut out the specific contents of the bonus package and collector's edition from this article? They have been confirmed by Anet and it would be more useful to people to know that they're getting in-game weapons in the bonus pack, and an art book in the collector's edition, rather than just "fan articles". --Ctran 09:37, 8 September 2006 (PDT)
 * The only reason i can see is because the info is easily found by clicking the link to the wiki page for the package. - Midnight08 11:42, 8 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Ok, but the wiki page for the Collector's Edition does not exist. --Ctran 12:28, 8 September 2006 (PDT)
 * was there an official post about collectors edition contents yet? If you can point me to one by A-Net i'l add the page--Midnight08 14:54, 8 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Found it, gimmie a min --Midnight08 14:59, 8 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Btw: to anyone who had the pre-order package of Nightfall, if you enter the command "/bonusitems" you will get the new scythe and spear added to the inventory of that character. You can do it for all of your existing characters now, provided you added the pre-order code to an existing account. -- Shadow Lord 08:45, 6 October 2006 (CDT)

Story Line
Could Dhuum be the evil god mentioned in the preview?
 * "Could" is the key word there... its heavily speculated but hasnt been revelaed yet... --Midnight08 22:01, 8 September 2006 (CDT)
 * They've been dropping hints about a connection between Dhuum, the chaos hordes and Elona since the Factions PvP preview. Wolfgaming.net has a couple screenshot of a stone building in one of the Nightfall missions with the same giant tentacles as the Tomb of the Primeval Kings. -- Gordon Ecker 22:39, 8 September 2006 (CDT)
 * it doesnt make sense they will put Dhuum as the outcast god. In the lore it says the outcast god's name was wiped from all history but Dhuum is mentions quite alot of times in the uw.--Ofer1992 09:41, 20 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Just think of the very nature of the UW... &mdash; Skuld 10:03, 20 September 2006 (CDT)
 * ok now, one of the quests in nightfall involves going into the docks and then u meet the zaishen general. he says he came bcuz the source of the events in the tomb of primeval kings are in elona. then u have a thing similar to the Dragon Festival where u need to close the portals which has grasping darkness and then they say that it also happened in cantha and tyria. in the end they tell you that nightfall is an old legend about the end of days. whoever is responsible to the events in cantha and tyria is the outcast god for sure.--Ofer1992 03:15, 23 September 2006 (CDT)

'Radarmap' of Nightfall
Well, the map someone added seems interesting, is there any way of proving whether it's true or false? -- Torins (talk) 14:19, 10 September 2006 (CDT)
 * not until the PvE ebvent, also the map looks really incomplete--Midnight08 18:13, 10 September 2006 (CDT)

That map is an alpha-leak. Any re-posting of links to that image (including links to the same image uploaded to a different hosting site) will result in the entire article be deleted by me and then restored without the link, to wipe it from the history. Depending on the circumstances, I might also consider banning the person who re-posted the link to that image. - 20:45, 10 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Edit: the reason I didn't wipe the history just now is because the link seems to no longer work. If it turns out the link works again, I'll wipe the history. - 20:48, 10 September 2006 (CDT)

I added this map before, and the link is indeed dead, so here's another one i found: (link removed) The person from whom I picked up the previous map just came across it.lof102 16:34, 11 September 2006 (CDT)
 * With all due respect, but you, Sir, are an idiot. PanSola, who is an admin here, just told you that all links to that map will be removed entirely from GuildWiki, because they are the result of a Non-Disclosure Agreement violation by an alpha tester. And you got the nerves to post that link again? --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 10:02, 11 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Recommend editing it out of page history and indefblock for the above user. 70.17.171.219 10:03, 11 September 2006 (CDT)
 * (oops, edit conflict. I meant above as in lof102, not Tetris.) 70.17.171.219 10:03, 11 September 2006 (CDT)
 * lol PanSola says dont repost or you might get banned, so he REPLIES with, i reposted.... yea get rid of him lol. Its already bad enough that this info gets leaked at all (i'd love to hear it but there are reasons for NDA's), but to have people posting it everywhere over and over again is ridic... --Midnight08 11:36, 12 September 2006 (CDT)

Information from magazines
Sources doesn't exist yet, what's our unofficial policy on posting info from magazines. Can we post anything as long as we paraphrase and don't violate American copyright law? Are we only allowed to mention that information is in a specific issue of the magazine? -- Gordon Ecker 21:45, 10 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Precendital practice has been that paraphrasing is allowed, but any features or release date should still need confirmation from Anet or they remain speculation. - 10:39, 11 September 2006 (CDT)


 * What about the names of the monsters and the other two regions? -- Gordon Ecker 17:43, 11 September 2006 (CDT)


 * You can phrase them as "according to blah blah magazine," and then state the names of the monsters and regions. We wouldn't know if the magazines got them right or if they made up the names (or mixed up the names). - 20:59, 11 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Okay, here's the info from the PC Gamer scans in this gwonline thread, and this one. The creature with a mask and flaming blue-white wings is a Marganite (sic), a creature which wasn't in the ingame cinematic but bears a strong resemblance to a Grasp of Insanity is called a Realm of Torment Mesmer, the Griffon is labelled as a Vabbi Griffin (sic), the giant is labelled as a Desolation Giant Yeti and the giant scaly tree / fungus thing is labelled as a Living Land Treenormous. Elona's port is named as Kamadan.
 * In addition to the information from the actual scans, forum posters have said that, according to the magazine, the two other regions are Desolation and the Realm of Torment, Jahai is a city in Vabbi, there are 20 missions, and Nightfall has elite missions that are accessible after a certain point in the game and are apparently much easier to access. According to the thread the article names 12 Heroes and gives brief, one-sentence descriptions of them that do not explicitly state their professions. Also, apparently one of the missions has rideable mounts, but not in the way that people would expect. -- Gordon Ecker 22:50, 11 September 2006 (CDT)

I am in possession of this magazine now and have the full list of the 12 heroes, but I see that the stubs have already been delete flagged. I won't add the rest if they are jsut going to be deleted. Deletion is not proper I think, but it's your wiki 69.80.225.12 17:19, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I think reference could be done in this article, mentioning their names per the magazine. But, precedent suggests it's premature to create articles for them until they can be confirmed in game (magazines have been frequently wrong on this sort of stuff in the past).  At any rate, we'll likely have the information in-game during the preview just barely over a week away.  It could all just be added at that point. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 17:23, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * It's just information, man. It won't bite. I mean who is gonna complain if GuildWiki repeats wrong information that is already published in an exclusive magazine article? "OMG guildwiki said foo but it's actually bar I'm never using gwiki again!!!11" ... yeah. But suit yourselves. 69.80.225.12 17:31, 14 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I wouldn't mind taking the info from magazine articles, and even create articles from it, as long as such magazine got the content exclusively from ANet. Even if the magazine got a name wrong, it is minor work to move the article later and fix links. No harm done. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 04:27, 15 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm confused. One person says info from magazines is verboten and adds delete tags on Koss, Zhed Shadowhoof, &c, the other person says go ahead make the articles. Can someone give a clear statement of the wiki policy? Because I'm not going to make any pages if they just get immediately delete. 69.80.225.12 14:07, 15 September 2006 (CDT)
 * There is no clear wiki policy about this yet, that's the problem. Wiki policies are the result of cumminity discussion. We're in the middle of that discussion, right here, right now. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 13:00, 17 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Given that the official site has a story about this article, I think that the magazine article content should be acceptable. It clearly has support from ANet, even if they have not officially announced the names themselves. We already have the Nightfall "changes possible" notice on the articles, warning people the information is not final. Even ANet's information can change - didn't Gaile say something about an auction house coming shortly after the release of Factions? Just my 2 cents. - Lord Ehzed 12:35, 17 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I see no problem listing them within an article, such as this one. But, given that we know next to nothing about them, I feel a red link is better than an empty article.  Red links are not evil, they just mean that content is needed once information becomes available.
 * Besides, we should have content in less than a week - the red links will evaporate at that point. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 12:57, 17 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I have no problems with the adding of information from sources who claim they have exclusive but official content. If someone wants to take the trouble of duplicating the information here (we can always say "Read so-and-so article on issue so-and-so), by all means please do so (personally, I find it troublesome since you must edit them again after the release, might as well wait). But the question I'm wondering is whether we're allowed to, given that those are exclusive stuffs. -- Ab.Er.Rant (msg Aberrant80) 20:51, 18 September 2006 (CDT)

Info from NCTAiwan
http://guildwars.nctaiwan.com/event/globeEvent/ch3dark/event.asp


 * 20 missions includes varous traps and puzzles. For example, one cooperative mission requires players to locate four stone tablets in the desert, and place them into different platforms, in order to open a door.  THen they fight a boss, and only complete mission after defeating boss.  In this mission, plaer must kill ghost to get stone tablet, the funny thing is, player can only bring one stone tablet at a time, and the stone tablet you placed in the platform will be stolen by reborn ghost after a certain time.  So before starting mission, need to think about how to break through the dilemma.  During mission, the pillars that will collapse anytime, or mechanisms that randomly burst out flames etc will all do damage to players, so the timing of players controlling character movement will be very important, which is a big test of player reaction.  And boss will transform according to the situation on the battlefield.  Every transform includes the Boss's outershape and profession, so players are no longer fighting a single-profession boss, but a Bosss who will change his main attack alignment/attribute/style (edit: an ambig word), so the player's tactical combo for attacking the boss will have more myrid changes.


 * In the Roleplaying mode, Heroes will go on adventures with players, and listen to order to do the three commands of attack, defense, and avoid combat. The player can freely adjust the Hero's profession and equipment.  A plaer can bring a max of 3 heroes to the party, which greatly decreases the diffculty of forming a group.  For example, a party of max size 8 now can simply be formed by 2 players each bringing 3 heroes, no need to wait, can start exploration ant time.  What's even more interesting, partying iwth different heroes will let players have different game experience during the mission, increasing mission replayability.  In PvP mode, a new 1 vs 1 PvP fighting system, "Hero vs Hero", player can party with their own hero and fight against other players with their hero around the globe.  THis is like a 1 vs 1 player PvP, the pleyer not only need to think about their onw skill and equipment, also need to consider the 3 heroes's job and equipment and skill arrangement.

- 11:42, 13 September 2006 (CDT)


 * wow, those mission took 40min to 2 hours to finsih.... -- [[Image:Ritualist-icon-small.png]] Cwingnam2000 11:49, 13 September 2006 (CDT)


 * That's comparable to Prophecies/Factions mission length, if you go with relatively new ppl and not rushing for master's award, I think - 12:11, 13 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Hero vs hero battles sound fun, I'm playing Boon Orders Mo/N with 3 R-spike heroes hehe. With AI reflexes i'm sure it will do well ^^ &mdash; Skuld 12:01, 13 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Hmmm, but that sounds like heroes would replace henchmen. I hope there is some sort of mechanism that will still let you "hench" higher level missions. --Xeeron 12:12, 13 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I'll take a team of 4 Smart Custom "Hero's" over 8 "Henchmen" any day... just gera em and set skills correctly and they will be vastly superior when it comes down to it--Midnight08 13:37, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

"Ya Ba Dun", or something that sounds like it

 * http://event1.gamebase.com.tw/event_20060913_gw/index.htm
 * http://kusos.com/75.htm
 * http://prj.gamer.com.tw/guidenewevent

NCTaiwan is putting on an activity with 3 major gaming websites in Taiwan (Gamebase, Kusos, and Bahamut), giving away access to the PvE Preview Event (333 slots for each website). To participate, people need to submit a sentence containing the words "Nightfall", "Ya Ba Dun" (or something that sounds it), "Hero", and "Gamebase/Kusos/Bahamut" (depending on the gaming site). - 11:49, 13 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I'm curious WTH is that "Ya Ba Dun" thinggie, why they would want it to be linked to form a story -- [[Image:Ritualist-icon-small.png]] Cwingnam2000 11:59, 13 September 2006 (CDT)


 * A few forum posts in Taiwan are suggesting it means "Abaddon", as in Abaddon's Mouth (Location). However since the Chinese localization of the location/mission didn't translate the name "Abbadon" (the Chinese name is "Hell Mouth" or something), the connection is not certain. - 12:10, 13 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Haha, the Taiwan forum post are intersting and funny, Lots of people make a story without knowing what Ya Ba Dun meant, oh didn't know that you made the chinese wiki^^ -- [[Image:Ritualist-icon-small.png]] Cwingnam2000 12:37, 13 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Something interesting Abaddon (Demon) -- [[Image:Ritualist-icon-small.png]] Cwingnam2000 12:55, 13 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Could you check what the name of Dhuum is in the Taiwan/Chinese localized version? --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 13:19, 13 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I haven't been really playing the game much lately, and I've never ventured that deep into UW. Plus the fact that Taiwan rarely gets te Favor of Gods, I doubt any of the ppl on the Taiwanese forums know.  What you can do is, organize a team to go to UW, find the references of Duum, change your interface language to Traditional Chinese, and screenshot it for me. - 13:28, 13 September 2006 (CDT)


 * If Abaddon turns out to be another name for Dhuum then we'll know who Abaddon's Mouth is named after. The stone carvings on the Ring of Fire Islands and around the Lake of Fire bear a strong resemblance to Scythes of Chaos. -- Gordon Ecker 23:56, 14 September 2006 (CDT)


 * And it's Abbadon. Of course this doesn't rule out the possibility of a connection to Dhuum or Menzies by way of alliances, reincarnation or sockpuppetry. -- Gordon Ecker 06:53, 23 September 2006 (CDT)


 * So, what you're suggesting is that Abaddon was permabanned by the five gods for trolling creation? Sunyavadin 06:49, 28 September 2006 (BST)

Logo
Now that the character selection screen has a Nightfall logo we can finally take an ingame screenshot and re-add the logo to the article without anybody pooping his pants because of a potential copyright violation. Hooray, we'll not be the last fansite on the planet without a Nightfall logo any more. /sarcasm -- 05:11, 15 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Done =) --Midnight08 16:11, 15 September 2006 (CDT)

Lip-synch in in-game cinematics
Why hasn't anyone posted this yet? Is Gaile's post not enough to add such info? -- Torins (talk) 13:29, 15 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Where? --Karlos 22:18, 15 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Here --[[Image:Animate_Flesh_Golem.jpg|25px]] Torins (talk) 02:41, 16 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Is this retro-active? Do you have to purchase Nightfall to get this feature?  --71.232.158.226 02:04, 17 September 2006 (CDT)


 * I'm sure they wont add this feature to previous campaigns, just the new cinematics. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 02:09, 17 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Gaile said "cinematics" not "Nightfall cinematics", so let's have hope... --[[Image:Animate_Flesh_Golem.jpg|25px]] Torins (talk) 03:02, 17 September 2006 (CDT)


 * From what I understand, it will be implemented backwards. It's not like the cutscenes were rendered as a static video stream. It just uses a different camera angle, so I doubt they need alot of more work to make sure it gets back-ported. -- Ab.Er.Rant (msg Aberrant80) 20:45, 18 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Unlikely. From a technical standpoint, the script would need to be marked up with mouth shapes and movements. They'd need to go through and do that for the whole Prophecies/Factions scripts too. There are research projects to automate this sort of stuff, but none of them are very far yet. --86.20.80.219 11:34, 26 September 2006 (CDT)

Music
The entering notes that lead up to the heavy drumming seem very similir to notes in a song by Amr Diab. Can't recall the title though. --Karlos 22:20, 15 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I admit, I don't know anything about Amr Diab's music, but I have heard that "musical riff" before, possibly in a movie/tv show. --Rainith 22:52, 15 September 2006 (CDT)

pre-release - "expected"
has it hit the stores yet? It's past Sept 15. - 12:50, 19 September 2006 (CDT)
 * some stores it has hit around the world, but most places still do not have it it seems. Ive seen on many retailers that it is listed as a Sep 24th hard street date (they can get fined if they sell it earlier), probably in error as this coincides with the regular pre-release disks hard date. --Midnight08 13:00, 19 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm holding my copy in my hand right now (as I type with the other hand), so, yes, it is definetly available. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 14:02, 19 September 2006 (CDT)

Holy Fig Leaves, Batman!
Check out the female ele armor in the promotional:

link to picture

This is ridiculous. Here I am still trying to recover from 15k Luxon Bellydancer armor and they throw this at me! What the heck is that supposed to protect from? Does it come with 15k sun lotion? There is no depth to which the costume designers will not delve to please the 14 year old male audience of this game. Bah! --Karlos 13:54, 19 September 2006 (CDT)


 * The male assassin armor is great, the male ranger armor sucks. The female ele armor looks good too. I'm not bothered if they just try to sell the game with half naked females; why not? --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 14:07, 19 September 2006 (CDT)


 * When you have a daughter yourself, and you see her barraged every hour with content that tells her she has to "Strut her stuff" and convince her that she derives her social worth from how much males appreciate her body and you have to deal with the very real issue of "Cripes, I don't want my daughter to be like those retarded girls on the Disney channel" then you'll come to understand why this a VERY bad thing. To me, the concept that a person, any person, would go to war in a bikini is ridiculous. But the main issue is social responsibility... To cater to the penises of 14 year old boys is to destroy the self-image of thousands of girls who play this game and destroy the true worth of a woman in the minds of the owners of those penises. I come from a different culture where this maybe too evident for me as compared to those from a western culture. --Karlos 14:14, 19 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Off topic, but in Spain, 5 models were disqualified in participating in some fashion show or something, because those women were underweight. I hope that will start a trend to set the world in the right direction.  Well, not about cloths, but about physical health. - 14:19, 19 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Not if Paris Hilton can do something about it. Anorexia ftl :( --Karlos 14:29, 19 September 2006 (CDT)


 * The fashion show model limitations are great. It will probably increase the general health of teenage girls a lot. What comes to clothing, I understand your point of view Karlos. Sorry for the previous post. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 15:06, 19 September 2006 (CDT)

If you don't like that, you're going to hate Herta's "outfit"...to use the term loosely. ^_^ I'm a girl and I'm not offended by it. Then again, I'm a lesbian, soooo... >_>;; Arshay Duskbrow 21:58, 23 September 2006 (CDT)

Pointless Trivia
After the last unrelated trivia tidbit was added, I was half tempted to just port over all the entries on Nightfall; but instead I'll ask ... what criteria/threshold exists for trivia entries? I don't recall seeing anything in style/formatting guides (and I would hope this is too minor to be documented in policies). --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 16:33, 19 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I think anything relevant or related should only be added. The latest trivia is neither. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 16:38, 19 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm the one who added the Trivia, mostly because I found it funny. However, I wouldn't mind to see it removed. --[[Image:TurningL sml.gif|Tetris L]] 08:22, 20 September 2006 (CDT)

Story of Palawa Joko & Turai Ossa
This is taking from the pre-release bonus pack: "Palawa Joko & Turai Ossa. A statue stands at the base of the Fortress of Jahai, an enduring monument to Turai Ossa, the saviour of Elona. On that site hundreds of years ago, Turai defeated the undead lord Palawa Joko, the Scourge of Vabbi—an event that brought the end of an era and the dawn of a new one. Since the Shattered Dynasty era, the three provinces of southern Elona— Vabbi, Istan and Kourna—have maintained their distance from the politics to the north. Although their isolation brought prosperity, outsiders ceaselessly schemed to seize Elona’s wealth and power. Each province had its own plans for defence, of course. The province of Kourna had a strong army and the Istani were known for their vast navy that diligently watched the waters. In the days of Turai, however, the merchant princes of Vabbi felt confi dent that the treacherous terrain of the north would prevent invaders from threatening their lands—a mistake that would prove fatal. In the dead of night, Palawa Joko led an army of invaders through the mines of Vabbi, quietly infi ltrating Elona’s northernmost province. Loyal guards stood watch over the estates of the merchant princes, but they were unprepared for the advance of an entire army. Caught by surprise, the faithful fell quickly. With lightning-fast raids, the Scourge of Vabbi captured the estates of the wealthy, driving his enemies before him. Word of the attack spread faster still, though, giving Kournan soldiers a chance to ready their swords and bows. By the time Palawa Joko reached the Fortress of Jahai, an Elonian army awaited them—ready to answer the commands of their leader, Turai Ossa. 8 The resulting bloodbath lasted for days. As each night fell, the battleground remained unchanged, for neither army gave ground during the day. In a desperate attempt to stop the slaughter, Turai Ossa bravely challenged the enemy commander to single combat. At dawn, Ossa and Joko locked swords...and the statue in the Kournan capital now stands on the exact location where Ossa fi nally triumphed over the Scourge of Vabbi. Elona was humbled, but ready to rebuild. Shaken and stunned, the people of Elona rallied behind Turai Ossa. The princes of Vabbi used recaptured wealth to rebuild what had been destroyed, and the people of Kourna revered Turai as their new ruler. Since that time, the title Warmarshal has been a hereditary mark of leadership in Kourna, passed down through the many generations of Turai Ossa’s descendants. After his victory, Warmarshal Ossa had wealth, power and infl uence. And yet he yearned for loftier goals. Openly, he ruled a grateful populace, but secretly, he spent his nights studying the ancient scrolls of the Flameseeker Prophecies. Within its mysteries, Ossa sought Ascension, a state of communion with the gods. He believed the path to that goal ran through the wastelands of northern Elona—lands devastated by Palawa Joko years before. 9 Turai stepped down from his position of authority, passing the title of Warmarshal to his son, Kurai. Ossa and his followers then marched north into the Crystal Desert, where the gods once walked among men. His loyal entourage erected temples, raising pillars toward the heavens. But Ascension eluded Turai. Instead of everlasting life, he found the torment of eternal living death. As one of the undead, he walks the earth still. Many of his followers also died, and their ghosts have remained in the Crystal Desert. Some would call this failure, but Elonans consider it sacrifi ce—Turai blazed a trail for others to follow. To this day, Turai Ossa’s descendents rule over Kourna. Warmarshal Varesh Ossa represents the latest generation, and she shares her ancestor’s fascination with the lore of the Ascended. As for Turai, he maintains his vigil over Elona, guiding others who follow the path of heroes. Scholars of lore know of him as the saviour of Kourna, the man who single-handedly defeated the Scourge of Vabbi. But for many, he is simply the Ghostly Hero, a champion who stalks the troubled wastelands of Elona, eternally ready to stand beside its heroes." "Openly, he ruled a grateful populace, but secretly, he spent his nights studying the ancient scrolls of the Flameseeker Prophecies" hmmm... like the lich lord...--WichmanN 07:08, 20 September 2006 (CDT)
 * If you pay careful attention they explain that he is actually a "Ghostly Hero". His actions were similar to the lich lord, but he did not go to evil lengths to reach his goals. --Midnight08 07:16, 20 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Yeah, he's like some kind of good anti-Lich. Does that mean he was accompanied by some evil Gollumesque anti-Rurik? -- Gordon Ecker 20:58, 21 September 2006 (CDT)

Nightfall CE
So has ANet confirmed anything related to that of Nightfall CE being only available on DVD format? --Chris 22:49, 20 September 2006 (CDT)
 * No, and my guess is it won't be. 2 CDs < 1 DVD cost wise.  --Rainith 11:01, 21 September 2006 (CDT)
 * GAmingcompanies are using more and more DVDs, so this _might_ be true. However, I'm sure they realise that many users wont have the possibility to use a DVD. They have been keeping the game requirements and internet traffic pretty low so that everyone can play, so I don't think they will ruin it with this. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 14:23, 21 September 2006 (CDT)

My supplier (bol.com) states that both the original and the CE are a DVD release, probaly bcause they have to include the lipsync code etc.

Menzies?
In the latest video, there was a collossal Assassin creature resembling Abyssals and Shadow Overlords. And I just noticed that many of the Shadow Army units have black spikes or tentacles projecting from their backs. I strongly suspect sockpuppetry, although it's also possible that they are separate entities and the followers of Dhuum turned to Menzies after the fall of their old master. -- Gordon Ecker 21:26, 21 September 2006 (CDT)

Heros helping in dual farming
well... maybe the "heros" can be used to dual farm i UW and FoW and so on??... with the right build--WichmanN 03:08, 22 September 2006 (CDT)


 * They wont be able to play the tank. And probably not an SS either. Not sure of any other builds. And they might incorrectly aggro if you don't manage their orders well. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 03:47, 22 September 2006 (CDT)


 * The most obvious usage is support healer in a 2 man team. You'll set the monk to bond you and give him dwayna's kiss and sig of devotion and then tell him to be passive and stand back. You go in and aggro, then release him, he will come heal and not attack. Sounds very doable. --Karlos 03:10, 23 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Maby. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 09:10, 23 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Iwas just thinking of the Team - UW Dual smite build.... where the hero acn be the caster... only need 4 speels(and 1 res)--WichmanN 17:53, 23 September 2006 (CDT)

Relieved About Support for Factions Classes
One of my primary concerns with the coming of Nightfall was the seemingly popular theory that Assassins and Ritualists would not be getting any new armor/weapons/skills/etc. Subsequent information has shown that, very thankfully, this isn't true. While it does only make sense for them to do so, I still want to thank Anet for continuing to expand the campaign-specific classes the same way as they have for the cores. Arshay Duskbrow 02:37, 23 September 2006 (CDT)

Seems odd that there are elite skills for Assassins and Ritualists. It implies that there will be bosses of those professions, yet we cannot choose those professions to start with. Either Elonians have no knowledge of Assassins and Ritualists or they do. It would be nice for it to be consistent (and by that I mean I'd like the ability to make an Rt/P at the start of Nightfall). Dustin --158.147.93.45 13:29, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

Never Fight Alone
Geez, that 'never fight alone' theme/catchphrase is already starting to get irritating, and it's only the preview event. x.x &mdash;  kyrasantae   15:49, 24 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Wow you're easily annoyed, I remember seeing it...what...twice, three times in the whole preview. hadz 00:50, 26 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I think I saw it at least 5 times, in various forms. It probably has something to do with the clichédness of the plot at this point in the story, but that's a topic for another time. &mdash; [[Image:Fin_sig.gif]] kyrasantae  &#91;t |c &#93;  00:56, 26 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I thought Factions was cliché, Prophecies and Nightfall, so far, seem much less so...anyway, time will tell. hadz 02:49, 26 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Maybe I read too much Terry Goodkind. The whole "OMG, an old prophecy is going to come to pass! By the wrong people! We must stop it!" thing is getting kind of old to me :P  In fact, the concept of having prophecies, period, is getting rather tired. Factions story was just littered with holes. :D &mdash; [[Image:Fin_sig.gif]] kyrasantae  &#91;t |c &#93;  18:57, 26 September 2006 (CDT)
 * Hah Terry Goodkind - Sword of Truth series rocks (tho yes 3000 different intertwined prophecies is a bit much=P) I dunno tho, will have to see how NF's story pans out and attempts to close those holdes before i pass any judgement.--Midnight08 10:43, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

If your supposed to fight alone what about farming and the like? 19:04, 24 september 2006 (CDT)

Inscriptions
I just picked up the latest issue of PC Gamer (the same one subscribers got weeks ago). According to the article, weapon modifiers are going to be converted into salvageable 'inscriptions', which looks like it'll have the biggest impact on the game economy since the addition of green items. The good news is that this is going to make perfect mod common / unpopular skin items (including wands, staves, foci and shields, which aren't worth much now, especially if they match crafter / collector items) worth something. It'll also lower the price of perfect stat rare skin items, which is good news or bad news depending on what position you're in. Assuming that the feature doesn't get scrapped like skill gems or the original martial artist version of the Dervish. -- Gordon Ecker 23:03, 27 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I like it, although I have all the money I would need for anything. It will just make thing gso much easier, as I HATE trading with people. I can just salvage a nice inscription from a crappy item I find somewhere and add it to a good item I find somewhere else. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 13:39, 28 September 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm not sure I entirely understand what you mean (I can't get the mag here till almost same date as game release). Am I to understand by this that all the weapon modifiers (after salvaging) will be able to be placed on ANY weapon, and not limited to the one they were found on? hadz 20:52, 2 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I'll quote from the article:
 * "Inscriptions" will take the place of inherent bonus modifiers for weapons and can be transferred between most weapons or sold for quick cash. The armor system will be simplified to allow you to replace individual components (say, a breastplate) instead of purchasing a whole new set. Nightfall will also help crafters by allowing them to select which component they would like to salvage from a weapon, with the extra bonus of not having the rest of the weapon disintegrate after the process is complete. (PC Gamer, Nov 2006, pp 40-42) &mdash; [[Image:Fin_sig.gif|User:Kyrasantae]] kyrasantae  21:34, 2 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Hmm, so effectively you only ever have to buy one "Enchant +20% duration" inscription, and you can move it around (as long as you're willing to use up Salvage packs). Interesting, we'll see how it turns out when it hits the light of day. hadz 22:10, 2 October 2006 (CDT)
 * It says it'll no longer destroy the weapon, there's still a chance it might occasionally break the upgrade, or that there's a risk of destroying the weapon instead of a 100% chance of destroying it. -- Gordon Ecker 20:42, 3 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I am fully in support of these "inscriptions". Then again I'm a casual gamer... Kessel 05:08, 6 October 2006 (CDT)

Brother Mhenlo
Seeing as how heavily Brother Mhenlo was involved in the story of factions, do you think he'll have a big role in Nightfall as well? Guiding the player through the land and helping the player solve problems within the story? Assassinman 14:05, 1 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Atleast not in the beginning, but he might join the story line like he did in Factions. I rather like him so I would be happy to have him and the other old friends join me on my trip to Elona. --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 14:23, 1 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Unless I'm mistaken, I've seen him in the 2nd Nightfall video...1:04 bottom, 1:07 middle/bottom (other fight) --[[Image:Animate_Flesh_Golem.jpg|25px]] Torins (talk) 14:27, 1 October 2006 (CDT)
 * That's the big question! Will Brotha Mhenlo be pimping the Elonian ladies like he did the Canthan? Only time will tell. --Theeth (talk)   14:29, 1 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I was thinking maybe Kormir would introduce him, once you leave the island, like how Togo introduced him when you left the island in factions. And maybe they would share some type of past together, like something involving the sunspears.  I just hope Kormir doesn't share the same fate as Togo. Assassinman 14:39, 1 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I would be sorely disappointed if it was so. Mhenlo can't have been everywhere. If we're going to be followers of the ANet chars again, at least make it Devona, or Aidan, or something, instead of it being Mhenlo again. Better yet would be to have them left out of it, and meeting Kormir ourselves after she goes to recruit help from Tyria and Cantha. But if it is Mhenlo, I wonder who the Canthan liason would be? Jamei? --Valentein 22:29, 2 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I'm thinking that Valentein is probably correct about this. If a particular person, this time it's going to be one of the other main "crew"... Perhaps Aidan or Eve or someone? Wouldn't necessarily have to have a Factions liason because Factions people have met them too. --Tisiphone 22:39, 2 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I doubt Mhenlo was the only foreign exchange student at Shing Jea Monastery. It's also possible that Cynn knew an Elonian foreign exchange student at Surmia Academy or Eve knew one from Nolani Academy . There's also the possibility of someone having an Elonian cousin, or even an Elonian parent. -- Gordon Ecker 20:42, 3 October 2006 (CDT)
 * I'd be disappointed if Mhenlo was in Nightfall too; would rather see new characters. But if they did, it'll be something like: Reach Kryta -> received Togo's call for help -> go Cantha -> Defeat Shiro -> Back to Crystal Desert for Ascension -> Gone south to Elona. -- Ab.Er.Rant (msg Aberrant80) 20:50, 3 October 2006 (CDT)
 * In the #2 Trailer (available at http://www.guildwars.com/gallery/video/), both Mhenlo and Devona are visible in combat. That doesn't make it certain they'll be involved in Nightfall at all, but I too wish Anet would move on from the "Heroes of Ascalon". Arshay Duskbrow 21:06, 3 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Well, our play characters from other campaigns ARE heroes from Ascalon and they are fighting and travelling together with Mhenlo and friends. To me it makes sense if the whole group moves together. You are saying that Mhenlo can't be everywhere, but why could our hero then? --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 05:10, 4 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Cause our heroes paid $150 in money, they earned it! Mhenlo is a bum! --Karlos 05:47, 4 October 2006 (CDT)


 * If the monsters are going to be as hard as the afflicted in Cantha, then it would be nice to have the third healer(Mhenlo) join us again. And Gem makes a good point as well. The laws of who's been where at what time also involves the main characters(us).  If they decided to involve a different ascalon hero, then I would hope it would be someone a bit more trustworthy than Eve or Cynn.  While their personalities are great and different, they can be seen as non trustworthy personalities.  Would I trust someone who speaks to a skull and calls it Adam and claims it talks back to her?  Or would I trust someone with a mind that isn't clear and gets easily frustrated?  (storywise)I'd rather have someone in my group that I could trust and one that makes good decisions...Devona, Aidan, and/or Mhenlo.  Assassinman 12:35, 4 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Now, don't you go trash-talking my girl Eve! Sure, she may be slightly off her rocker, but what necromancer isn't? And she makes the perfect fit for the Elonan campaign, given its initial focus on uppity undead and Eve's mysterious origins. I'd love to see her as part of the Elonan storyline. --- ChaoticCoyote 12:53, 4 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Please tell me more of Eve's "perfect fit" for Elona, as I wasn't aware of it before. Also, where would she fit in the storyline?  When would she be introduced?  And why didn't she travel with Mhenlo and gang during most of their travels in Tyria and Cantha, yet has been said to travel with them in various descriptions of her?  All I'm saying is, Eve has been a very minor character so far in both campaigns, and she was barely looked at in campaign 2.  I understand some people are fans of Eve as they are fans of other minor yet known characters, but I just find it highly unlikely(not to mention coming up with a story between her and the sunspears) and think that she won't be the one at Elona helping you during the story.  Assassinman 14:27, 4 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Well, at the end of the preview, Kormir did say that some friends from Tyria (and maybe Cantha) were coming to help. If they go by what they did in Cantha, then it has to be someone who is likely to have a former relationship with the Sunspears (like Mhenlo and Togo). That, to me, would exclude Eve and Cynn. And why is no one talking about Dunham?! :) I would suspect someone older among the Shing Jea crew, like Talon or the good Professor, and then either Aidan or Devona on the Tyrian side. --Karlos 18:39, 4 October 2006 (CDT)


 * I was wrong, Eve didn't go to Nolani Academy. She went to a boarding school for girls with discipline problems run by the church of Dwayna, and got expelled because they didn't think her Mike Tyson impression was funny. Anyway, we don't know who her parants and Adam are or where they're from. -- Gordon Ecker 23:30, 4 October 2006 (CDT)


 * The initial "bad guys" in Elona are undead; Eve is a necromancer. The connections seems obvious. And Eve's origins are unknown, ANet could come up with a several storylines to connect her with Elona. Given that she was one of the primary "box art" characters for Prophecies, it seems ANet planned "bigger things" for her than simply making pithy comments. -- ChaoticCoyote 08:10, 5 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Dunham, please. Let's buff his skill set and make him the leader of the heroes of Ascalon..! :D PedroPickles 08:33, 5 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Turai Ossa would be a spiffy guide. He confronts Varesh and disowns her from the Ossa line permanently before laying down some ghostly punishment. How realistic that would be, I don't know, but I do hope they have some kind of comment for Ascended characters about our interactions with Turai. --Valentein 09:23, 5 October 2006 (CDT)
 * You can forget about Dunham getting upgraded. Him and Claude have NO personality. And being box art seems to get you nothing with ANet. Nika was box art, just like Eve, and it got her about as much development as Eve. I would think that Turai Ossa will have some part in the storyline, or else why use his name and make the baddie his desendant. Otherwise they could have made up a new character, and left Turai Ossa as just "the Ghostly Hero". I definitly saw Mhenlo, Adian, and Cynn in the last video, and would assume the the other tyrians in the group are there too. It's also possible that a few canthan hench will be here too. I saw Jatoro Musagi, and Nehdukah was talking about the black moa and Zho. A few other things I have figured out: all your other characters can get heroes and take them back to Tyria and Cantha, all pre-existing characters will arrive in Kamadan, I also see a connection between the tentacles and the rift at the Tomb of the Primeval Kings, and Nightfall's banished god Abbadon, in a few of the screenshots released by ANet. -- Shadow Lord 08:30, 6 October 2006 (CDT)

Heroes in other campaigns
Are you sure about being able to take heroes with you to other campaigns, or is this just speculation? I hope this is the case, and getting a pet Phoenix for Elonian characters is going to be a huge pain if it isn't, but I'm not aware of any statements either way. -- Gordon Ecker 18:59, 6 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Sorry, just speculation, but based on my experience during the event weekend. All of my other characters had slots for the heroes (although no actual hero) while they were still in Tyria and Cantha. Plus there is no reason why they shouldn't allow them to be used in Tyria and Cantha. They fill regular party slots, just like hench, and are more like enhanced hench. -- Shadow Lord 20:10, 6 October 2006 (CDT)
 * You'll be able to take heroes to Tyria and Cantha; this was confirmed by Gaile today. People on GWO weren't able to get a log of the chat, but the telling snippet of it was posted on GWGuru. &mdash; [[Image:Fin_sig.gif|User:Kyrasantae]] kyrasantae  21:57, 6 October 2006 (CDT)
 * http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/4387/herosxb8.gif --[[Image:Gem-icon-sm.png]] (talk) 01:13, 7 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Well, here's hoping that ALL our Tyrian/Canthan characters can pick up all the Heroes too, otherwise it's a 7 character Nightfall-reroll-nightmare for me to take advantage of that. hadz 19:40, 7 October 2006 (CDT)
 * From what I saw during the event, any Tyrian/Canthan character you take to Elona can get the same heroes as the Elonian ones. No one character can get ALL the heroes, because ANet has said that there are some quests, where choosing one hero eliminates the ability to choose certain other heroes. -- Shadow Lord 20:32, 7 October 2006 (CDT)
 * Yeah, when I said "all" I meant "all the choices". I was just hoping the first few, like Koss and the Healers, would not be left out.  Maybe when you get to Elona the "contact" will just say here's a bunch of heroes who'll help you, and that will cover the "early story" ones. hadz 04:29, 8 October 2006 (CDT)