Talk:Survivor title guide

i mean no disrespect to the editors who put effort into this, but is it really usefull? couldn't we say "survivor guide: run from fights" and be done with it? --Honorable Sarah 10:43, 25 August 2006 (CDT)

It was true that the previous article was pretty useless. So I woudl like to add useful info to this article. Obtaining the survivor title has the highest chance of succeding when you do not engage in battle. This would mean you need to have friends/guildies/ect help you gain the exp while you sit back and reap the benifits. Not so much running from battle as not engaging yourself in the battle.

I would liek to add/change to what I wrote. Staying out of battle should be done if you feel it is too dangerous or know you are weak and suseptable to being killed. Until you feel safe i woudl saty outta battle. I did this until i go tmy max armor and then i started engaging in battle and doing quests.


 * and the delta is? the ghandi tactic carries no weight with grasps. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 15:18, 25 August 2006 (CDT)
 * I wrote this while working on the title with my necromancer almost always using henchmen. Staying out of the battle, while safe, is quite boring and imho makes the title less rewarding. I wanted the challenge of reaching the title without standing aside and with minimal if any farming, and I startes the guide to help others with a similar goal. So far, I've broken 1 million xp by doing every quest I've logged in Cantha and Tyria with henchmen, and I still have a few more to go, so I don't think it's impossible. If nobody feels the info is useful, I don't care if it gets deleted. Just trying to help. --Thervold 18:03, 28 August 2006 (CDT)

Also if you are worried about dying during a cutscene you can always exit out of guildwars after you have complete the mission. When you log back in you will not be in the next area but that area will be unlocked for you to travel to. i did this during my run through Sanctum Cay when i noticed my character was being attacked by the Mantle and it worked fine.

Pre Searing
I died during the PvP event you must go through while going "Over the wall". Would this effect the title? Or is it EVERY death which counts? I read/heard somewhere only some deaths count :S --Turaak 17:19, 4 September 2006 (CDT)


 * It's more like, some deaths do not count. PvP deaths in general will make you lose the title. I am not sure if this applies to the Over the Wall PvP part. That may be an exception (I wouldn't expect it, though). You can, however, test it easily with the /deaths command. --84-175 (talk) 19:00, 4 September 2006 (CDT)


 * Well, you can skip that by leaving, and will make you go striaght to the PVE part with henchies. Still, this may be bad manners and I am not sure how hard PVE is with henchies... Asmodeus 08:49, 9 September 2006 (CDT)

i woudl just liek to save some peopel out there alot of time and effort because of somehtign reall ygay taht just happened to me. I was about to die, i had 200hp left and didn't want to risk losing my title so i quit gw. When i logged back in i had died and i can't belive that it happened, I think i am goign to quit lol. So basically using hte exit GW button DOES NOT exit you at the same time.


 * That's why all Survivor seekers MAP out if they are going to die, and why you should NEVER pve group with somebody who has or is going for Survivor titles. IMO this title is like a giant red flag that says "DO NOT GROUP WITH ME, I ONLY CARE ABOUT MYSELF!"


 * You got it exactly the wrong way. A survivor cares very much about his/her party because a working party in good health is the best insurance against failure. It is the survivor who should be very cautious when accepting unknown players to the party because they may not be up to the very high standard of execution that is required. How about: "Do not group with me unless you have what it takes. I won't let you down unless you let me down first."--Tmakinen 00:52, 14 December 2006 (CST)

Players that has a survivor title going are IMO better than the average player, it is true that they will quit if they get too damaged but they generally have more survival skills than the average partymember. If a party fails its probably not because of the player playing for survivor title rather the other party members that lacks teamwork and pulls too many groups of enemies. Viktor 14:17, October 15 2006 (UTC)


 * I partially agree with you, Viktor. One skill that many players lack is self-preservation. It is also true that survivors have to be better at this. But, there are different ways they can do it. On one hand they can play smart, kite, not aggro more than necessary and mitigate damage through good skill usage. On the other hand they can stay out of the fights almost entirely and that causes them not to contribute to whatever the party is doing. --Wil 11:51, 15 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Its true that Survivors can stay behind and Leech in a misson, but whats the point of not playing the game? For people that take the title that way I want to say, wheres the prestige in that? There is none! It is like cheating twoards oneself titles are ment to be somthing that one is proud of I wouldnt have been proud of wearing my survivor title If I had played missons that way...	 Viktor 05:47, 16 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The people I know that are going for Survivor I know utilize tactics, actively participate in battles, and rarely have to map out. If you join a mission group and simply leech, you're not going to get xp from monster kills, reduce the chance of getting a time bonus (as the team is one player down), and if it does fail, you'll be hard pressed to find a group. There probably are some who choose to leech their way to the title, but I believe the majority are simply good players who know how to fight with minimal risk of death. --Thervold 13:25, 16 October 2006 (CDT)


 * I disagree completely. When I see Survivor attached to a player, my first thought is "coward!"  Then I think to myself that I should give them the benefit of the doubt, and correct myself with "cheater!" (as in those buying currency from gold farms to buy their way through everything)  This is one of the stupidest titles in the game...lucky and unlucky (or "AFK" as I call it) barely beat it.  It promotes cheating, and exploits a lot of underprivleged and impoverished Asian children to a life of carpal tunnel syndrome!  I have henched all but three missions with several different classes of characters, there is nothing wrong with my tactics, and I PvP with my PvE characters (which adds to my death count), the title cannot be earned without cheating (as I define as being run through missions and areas) or being cowardly, and stranding the rest of your party... period.  This is one title that should never have been introduced.  Elonian players have a much easier time obtaining the first rank.  I have 2 characters which I've managed it, using only henchies and heroes (hint: avoid the "Assault on Beknur Harbor" quest and do the "What Do You Do with a Drunken Shauben?" quest with great caution), but you will get killed during the Beknur Harbor quest, and the Consulate Docks mission if you do not partake of cheating and cowardice.  Here's a thought, if you really want to play a game, play it!  Buying your way through is idiocy personified.  Add it up, 3 @ $60  per expansion, 3 @ 10 or so missions bought 10k @ $10 per, 3 @ 20 or so quests bought 3 @ 30k @ $10 per, the chance to watch others play a game...priceless!  Or you could waste a few hours of your teamates time buy fleeing everytime the battle begins to sway in the enemies favor.  Wouldn't the world be a different place today if that's how battles were fought?


 * "Courage Under Fire" would've been a much better title to have IMHO (but how do you measure that? ...especially in a way that cannot be bought).  I fall back and regroup often, but I never leave a man behind, even if it costs me a death penalty.  It is not due to "valor" (I did not really die, and lose nothing) and it isn't "courage" that drives this (I have performed some courageous acts in my lifetime...they cost BIG!).  It is simple courtesy.  When a player in your group falls, it is either a mistake they made (ala Leroy Jenkins), or a mistake the group made, and you are a part of that group.  Take some responsibility, get them up, and carry on.


 * This is not a personal attack (hey, you didn't even sign your contribution) but you're dead wrong (pun intended) when you claim that the title cannot be acquired without cheating. The first character that I'm working for this title is about halfway Chapter 3 (and has done some progress in the other two as well) and at a bit over 600k XP already an Indomitable Survivor. I have mostly heroed/henched my way through and never leeched off of the effort of other team members. The issue is, in my survivor's party nobody ever dies. I won't do any quest or mission with her before I've made sure with my other characters that I can pull off a flawless performance. If there's a quest that's too dangerous altogether (and there are some) I'll skip it since it would be foolhardy to do otherwise. Unfortunately, this also means that I'm almost exclusively restricted to using heroes/henches because the random PUP is an unknown quantity in the equation. So far I haven't ever bailed out of a quest or mission. It's not even so much about skill but patience, being careful and having appropriate measures for every occasion. She did Beknur Harbor with heroes and henches without a single casualty. Consulate Docks, she was lv18 and there was a guild member with his lv20 monk in the party, the rest were lv17-18 heroes. Not a single casualty there, either. The most dangerous thing that she has done so far was to do Tihark Orchard when it was still bugged so that she had to face the skree alone. She passed on the first try with HP never below 75%.--Tmakinen 04:26, 13 December 2006 (CST)
 * It comes down to this: There are two types of survivors...1) those who will fight through a fight and hope for a victory (these people choose their fights and don't PUG and rarely group with other players)...and 2) those who run from fights when it gets tough leaving their group to die. Obviously the first is the more respectable of the two. That is the group the devs intended to reward with this title. There are some people who absolutely hate people going for Survivor...I've seen someone intentionally get someone killed for having admitted trying for survivor. People who hate survivors no doubt have ran into group 2 way more often than group 1. That clearly gives them a reason to hate such people. Do not hate all people simply because they are going survivor...you may lump them in a group they don't deserve to be lumped into. I personally like to think of myself as a member of Group 1. The few times I've gone for survivor I've relied on henchies to get me there. The farthest I've gotten is halfway to level 2 (around 300k xp)...I died due to a PUG while trying to do Boreas Seabed mission. I didn't run from the group...I died because the group as a whole (that includes me) wasn't good enough to do the mission. That was the only time with that character that I tried a PUG. I learned from that experience and don't intend to join another PUG while going for survivor. As most Survivors know...they are way too unpredictable.Thor79[[Image:Ranger-icon-small.png]] 21:24, 28 December 2006 (CST)

Survivors and fairness towards other players/PUGs
When I met the first aspiring survivors, I would have fully agreed with the claim that they're all a bunch of cheaters and cowards. Getting spontaneous log-outs by W/Mos going for a survivor title or having to listen to the whining because some would-be survivor just Leeroyed himself to death without ever having as much as warned others he's going for the title is discouraging. Now, after hitting level 10 in Ascalon without dying, by sheer accident more than intention, and having decided to try and get the title myself, things look a bit different.

It is very much possible to get the title without cheating or ripping other players off. Apart from the first two missions I haven't PUGed with anyone yet ('cept a jog through pre-searing) and even then I informed them I'm trying not to die and play it safe, so we always took Alesia with us.

The key is being careful and knowing when to retreat. Often guerilla tactics work better than going all out -- henchmen can act as your meat shield. Don't take any missions of which you know that they are difficult to finish before you are sure you are properly equipped and that your teammates are capable of finishing it without you. If you know that you are going to have to log out if things get hairy because there will be no escape route, warn your teammates before even starting the mission or leaving the outpost so they can decide whether to take you along or not -- don't be rude if they decide against it.

Despite the advantage of high armour and self-healing, I've seen W/Mos die a lot. Most builds rely on elites and skills that are not available to new characters. Try to make do with what you have, not what you want to have. If you need particular weapons, get them with another character and put them in the storage. Also, melee fighters are prone to dying fast, especially if they rely on dedicated healers (who may not be properly equipped and trained either).

So far playing an R/E build seems to be a sure-fire way to avoid most sticky situations, especially if you have a good healer who can cover you if you get too much unwanted attention. If you just want to get the title fast, consider creating a Canthan character -- Shing Jea is relatively tiny and the quest rewards are high, plus you get two missions that you can easily beat in short enough time to get the Masters reward. If you insist on creating a Tyrian, be sure to stay in pre-searing as long as you can and do all available quests -- Charr hunting in pre-searing is particularly dangerous so don't do it unless you are sure you and your teammate can handle them. As most players now try to rush through pre-searing your higher level will give you the edge in the usually mandatory PvP romp at the end (all henchmen are level 3, players who rush to it are often level 5 or lower) -- if you wait until late at night you might even be able to avoid fighting other players altogether.

If you go to a new area, make sure to test whether the local mobs are weak enough for you before going about your business. If they are not, go back (if possible) and wait until they are before doing any quests there. Don't rush anything and when PUGing always be honest about your plans. If the PUG is not aware of your intentions, they will pose a serious risk and might jeopardise your title, so it's in your best interest to inform them. Don't be rude to your PUG! If you piss them off, they might retaliate. You don't want to have to start over just because you were a pain in the arse to strangers. 91.0.107.2 03:53, 12 January 2007 (CST)

Just got a paragon to Legendary Survivor. My observations:
 * - Agreed that Pugs and Survivors are a bad mix.
 * - Can be run to droks, but suggested only early or not at all.
 * - Paragon is about ideal for this title. Generaly, the enemy have to eat through all the squishies before they see you as appealing, and a supporting build can be very useful in some several ways (powering monks/eles with zealous skills, providing a mending refrain to any who need it - +4 health regen is always handy, plus being support keeps you at the back).  Chuck in a watchful spirit (Prophicies skill, I regret to report) for a total +6 health regen (till stripped) on yourself, and with a leadership build running Go for The Eyes and Anthem of Flame, energy will not be a problem -- I've had 3 watchfull spirits out on several occasions.  Paragon survivor a coward?  A wee tad, but only after the party is half dead anyway, and unless DP or failed missions are your friend, flight is advised in any event.  A dead weight?  If powering casters, providing +4 health regen, and brief -10 health degen (anthem of flame & barbed spear) is a dead weight, then yes.
 * 71.208.173.64 22:43, 17 January 2007 (CST)

Agree on all points, my paragon hit the legendary title during the double XP elite capping weekend in a most anticlimatic manner, it was like "Duh, that's it? I could continue this for another million." Didn't have to bail out once during the entire process either. And Olias is your best friend.--Tmakinen 07:57, 18 January 2007 (CST)

I got my Paragon to Legendary today. Played it all as a P/W with full heroes and henchies or with a friend or two in higher risk areas. Wasn't all that hard, Tactics provides good party and self defense. Throw in some Leadership and Spear Attacks and I was all set. Didn't end up capping that many skills. When I got the title I was up to THK in Prophecies, Eternal Grove in Cantha and Ruins of Morah in Elona. I was far from a dead weight with constant armor buffs and useful degen. PUGs are definately not advisable. Someone once said to me, "Survivors jeapordise the chance of finishing the mission." I say "Others jeapordise my chance of surviving." Oh also, I did everything without melee most of the time. NPC melee characters are aggro nightmares. 132.203.83.38 22:37, 21 February 2007 (CST)

I'm at Indomitable survivor right now with my Paragon. What I've learned thus far is that, above all else, the stability of the program and internet connection are paramount. Twice the program has locked up on me. Thankfully, both times I was relatively safe and well protected by my henchmen. Previously I had considered troll farming with triple xp scrolls, but now I'm just going to stick with Sorrow's Furnace quests.

New idea - hero bonder
I have a new idea - hero bonder. Just give him/her some skills, tell him/her to use them on you, and then put the flag at the beginning of area - so that he/she will be safe. It is possible for hero to mantain enchancements (I tried). Of course you get only 1/2 exp, but I think it can help a little... ?Archeont 02:07, 5 November 2006 (CST)\
 * This would work fantastically well except for the fact that there's a maximum distance over which enchantments can be maintained. Something like twice the aggro circle diameter.  Try it.  Drop your hero somewhere, maintain an enchantment on it, then run away until the enchantment drops.  --DaveK 01:08, 18 Novemeber 2006 (GMT)
 * Well, it may sounds funny, but I can't test the hero bonder - I simply don't have Prophecies and a vital skill called "life barrier" if I remember. But when I try to get a 'survivor', I always use Life bond. BTW: I had 400k exp and died because of hekets - they spiked me with corpse bombs or something like that :|. I just have a bat mood... My dervish died... Archeont 12:34, 19 November 2006 (CST)

Ascension for Nightfall characters
I just ascended my survivor paragon and got only 2100 XP for the effort (mission, bonus and kill) despite not having done Nahpui Quarter in Cantha. It might be the case that requirements have been changed or then some Nightfall quest makes characters ineligible for the 50k bonus. My first guess would be  the Building the Base: Prisoners of War quest that my paragon had done. --Tmakinen 05:29, 30 November 2006 (CST)
 * I remember that I did that with my Paragon survivor and got nothing aswell got pretty angry at that time, but that doesnt worry me much anymore since I got Legendary Survivor by killing capping elites and by doing some side quests in Cantha. Btw right after I got the Legendary Survivor title (after capping 135 elites) the first thing I did was to travel to the battle isles and step into the condition applying circles and slowly watched my para die for the very first time :D. --Viktor 17:30, 14 January 2007 (CST)

To deal with Vizunah Square
Rather then have unbound minnons kill you. Could you just close Guild Wars?


 * Senji's Corner? Sunjiang District? The problem of unbound minions during a cutscene happens at the end of Vizunah Square because of the forced death and subsequent resurrection of all party members. When my survivor went through that mission and I saw a bone horror hitting her during the cutscene, I logged out and back in, and although she ended back in Vizunah, the next outpost was unlocked and I could continue from there. So yes, a survivor may want to bail out during the cutscene, just to be sure. --Tmakinen 02:32, 1 December 2006 (CST)

I just did the mission and the wisdom regarding the cut scene, in and of itself, not counting against Survivor title is inaccurate as of this writing. My /deaths is now 1. No minions, just the forced death from Shiro's wrath. So, be warned. :) --Stjarnskott 01:23, 19 December 2006 (CST)


 * What if your were to exit out of the cutscene right at the beginning? Would you be able to avoid the death? Cause I'm stuck and can't advance through the story without this mission.17:42, 13 January 2007 (CST)

Hi, how can i earn the Legendary Defender of Ascalon title and Legendary Survivor at one character?
 * Unfortunately this is currently impossible. :( --Zidewinder 20:12, 7 January 2007 (CST)
 * What about letting your pet tank? It'll remove the AFK aspect from LDoA, but it doesn't seem completely impossible. Your pet needs to be weak enough, of course. 91.0.107.2 03:56, 12 January 2007 (CST)

You can log out during the cinematic. Useful story here: I finished the quest with minions, and someone else logged in. He didn't skip the cutscene. We died by Shiro's wrath, the minions became unbound and attacked the spirits. We got revived, and the attacked us. I freaked out because I already had Survivor (2), so I closed the program immediately. When I logged back in, I had not died, and I had access to the next mission. I am still working on Survivor (3) title. Exiting before Shiro's wrath should work too, which would be advisable for Survivor titles - someone confirm? Alaris 17:06, 11 March 2007 (CST)


 * I did the same, the freaking out and closing guildwars. Only, I'm absurdly paranoid, and didn't trust my party to skip fast enough. I closed guildwars the very second the +exp appeared on my screen for completing the mission. I logged back in to find myself in the Vizunah Square location, but with the mission complete and the next area on my map. So, I strongly recommend closing guildwars the very second the cinematic appears if you are a Survivor, as it does not effect your progress through the game in the slightest. - Kailianna Firesoul 71.171.83.213 16:38, 20 April 2007 (CDT)

Yesterday I did the Mission, we had no minions in the party but after regarding the Cut Scene my Death counter was 1. Not only mine, every party members counter was one higher after the Video. So be warned, better skip that stupid Scene :(

Some statistics would be useful
It would be useful to have some players display statistics - for every title for that matter - to give an idea of how much effort is required to get the title...

The stats should include: (1) how much time was spend playing with the character to get to each level of the title, (2) how many elites capped, (3) which quests & missions were completed and at what level (masters ...), and (4) what other means of getting XP were used.

I will add in these stats myself, once I reach the survivor title, that is. The first level of the title is less interesting, as most people have a clue when they reach max level :) Alaris 11:12, 1 March 2007 (CST)

I have a survivor who just got to lvl 20 and it took me 14 hours, he did Minister Cho's Estate and Zen Dajun with masters reward and did every quest on shing jea island except Captured Son, Sentimental Treasures and the attrubute point quest off zunra in setiung harbour.


 * Yeah. Survivor (1) isn't really a factor.  Took me about 10 hours, give or take, as I saved the Shing Jae island quests for level 20.  I did Cho's, Zen at 12, got heroes, went to LA and got about as far as Divine Coast before hitting 20.
 * I just reached Survivor (2) the other day. I'm at 607,500 faction, with 34 elites captured, 10/25 Tyrian mastered (1 unmastered), 4/13 Canthan mastered (4 unmastered) and virtually no progress in Elona just yet.  Age is 130 hours, but a lot of that is time spent in the hall or loitering, so that's not precise.  I did basically every quest in Bukdek/Market, and a dozen quests along the way in Tyria.  Ascending in Tyria was probably a fair sized chunk.  I used +50% scrolls for most of the missions, excepting areas where I was just capping skills early in the mission.  A fair part of my experience gain was in simply doing many of the missions (Tahnnakai, Dragon Lair) 8+ times to cap each elite in turn, often with scrolls. Craw   10:31, 8 March 2007 (CST)
 * Oh, a small note, I'm keeping a diary of tactics/methods/thoughts as I make my way through, on the GW Online Forums. Leave a note on my userpage if you want a link. Craw   10:34, 8 March 2007 (CST)
 * I reached Survivor (1) after completing all quests in Istan plus a few around Kaineng...
 * I reached Survivor (2), after 52 hours of play. I finished the Kaineng and marketplace quests, then moved through Lion's Arch onwards to fight the Doppleganger.  I did only a few quests along the way.  After the Doppleganger, I moved back to Elona, and I did the missions and many quests.  I completed Survivor (2) while getting the Hyena, near the Bone Palace.  All this was made using max henchs and heros parties, with a Paragon / Mesmer (/Monk until the Doppleganger, then switched), playing a support role mainly.  To this point, I captured only 15 Mesmer elites that were on the way, did not use scrolls, and kept loitering to a minimum.  Alaris 16:56, 11 March 2007 (CST)
 * I reached Survivor (3), after 102 hours of play. I finished most quests and missions up to Unwaking waters (not included), up to the Varesh mission (not included).  I also did the missions from Lion's arch to the Doppleganger (50k), then to Droknar, and the Sorrow quests.  All this was made using max henchs and heros parties, with a Paragon / Mesmer (/Monk until the Doppleganger, then switched), playing a support role early on, then moving to spear range later to add DPS. I did not use scrolls, kept loitering to a minimum, and had to farm faction to fill in the last 200k exp using the Kurzick "Duel of the houses" repeatable quest.  Alaris 11:09, 10 April 2007 (CST)


 * I reached Survivor (1) after 9 hours of play in Istan - did all the quests and all the missions with Masters. I then ventured to Kourna and did only Missions and Primary Quests until I could unlock Battle of Turai's Procession.  I captured one elite along the way, Barrage.  I have been farming that quest since then.  My character earned Survivor (2) after roughly 24 hours of play.  I currently have 970,000 exp and my character is 26 hours old.Kami No Kei! 17:43, 31 May 2007 (CDT)
 * Correction. I now have Survivor (3) @ a little over 28 hours old.Kami No Kei! 20:54, 31 May 2007 (CDT)

Months Later
here we are, close to 7 months later, and this guild could still be summed up as "run away when possible". flag delete? --Honorable Sarah 19:49, 10 March 2007 (CST)
 * No. This is useful in two ways: (1) in the stats from users (which after some research will make it into the guide) and (2) with many useful tips in the guide, e.g. where to get good XP, where to farm, etc. Alaris 17:06, 11 March 2007 (CST)
 * Shrug* The only useful thing I learned from this is about raze the roost. Or... save? Raise? I forgot already.  I did my Legendary Survivor just by going through the game normally, all three campaigns (ascension before nahpui), to get up to 600-650k - then just farmed the rest with Summit Slaves quest runs (100% safe with any character, henchmen do ALL the work), and elite capping to top it off. {Dubby 02:02, 1 April 2007 (CDT)}
 * What I learned: (1) Raze the roost, (2) Augury rock before Hunted / Nahpui, (3) faction farming, even though I didn't use that, (4) PvP deaths count, cutscene deaths don't, except if minions come unbound (which has saved my life once).

Dumb Question
Ok, after all the reading I still don't know if I still can get the Survivor title although my /deaths shows 541! Am I stupid?? Wiking 20:40, 3 April 2007 (CDT)
 * Too late for you: "To obtain the title, one must earn a number of experience while having the /deaths command return 0". Alaris

How about a "What to Avoid" or "What not to Do" Section
Or some other name that sums up precautionary measures.--rawr 02:35, 1 June 2007 (CDT)
 * avoid fighting; do not die. done. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 05:22, 1 June 2007 (CDT)
 * No offense, Sarah, but it's more complex than that. You certainly need to fight.  And how easy is it to avoid dying for most players?  Not very.  I think this guide is worthwhile, it just needs some love and attention to make it look nice. Kami No Kei! 15:50, 1 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Gl w/ that. I personally am not going to waste the time. Readem (talk *contribs ) 15:51, 1 June 2007 (CDT)

Cleaning This Up
Readem, Honorable Sarah, and anyone else concerned. I intend to do some major cleanup on this article tonight. I will be archiving the current copy right after I finish this, and then editting away in private before I post the new version. Let's hope my cleaner version meets with the community's approval. Kami No Kei! 16:53, 1 June 2007 (CDT)
 * There's usually no reason to "archive" an article. It's still in the history.  --Fyren 17:07, 1 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Ok, thanks for letting me know. Kami No Kei! 17:16, 1 June 2007 (CDT)

I finished my changes. The TOC is a little bit long because of all the subsections, so sorry about that. I don't know if anyone will like this better. I tried to make it more organized as well as eliminate some repeat information. I also took out the chart and basic information on Survivor since it is presented on that page - I don't think it needs to be directly restated here as we link to it many times. Suggestions and comments are appreciated. Kami No Kei! 19:55, 1 June 2007 (CDT)
 * unless your changes include a delete tag, i'm not really concerned. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 20:14, 1 June 2007 (CDT)
 * Why do you have such a huge problem with this article existing? Can't you just be mildly supportive of it?  If we can include pages about how and where to farm Lightbringer and Sunspear points, why can't we give people pointers about what to do to earn exp quickly and safely?  I don't see why you have so little respect for the title, or maybe just the guide to it. At least try and be helpful.  If there's a tag that says the article needs to be cleaned up, then when someone cleans it up, please don't respond by saying that you don't care unless there's a delete tag included - it's insulting. Kami No Kei! 20:35, 1 June 2007 (CDT)


 * Leave it be Sarah, he did a good job. Readem (talk *contribs ) 20:59, 1 June 2007 (CDT)
 * i'm just stating that i really don't care what's in this article. i do think kami has done a good job organizing and pruning this article, so don't interpret my distaste for this title as distaste for this guide's maintainer.
 * as for my dislike of this title, anyone afraid to die is not going to be useful. in fact they're probably going to be detrimental to a group. any effort they put forth is going to be hindered by their reservations, and their behavior is going to be colored by that desire. scraping aggro onto a healer just to avoid /deaths=1 is not valorous or honorable, leaving an empty slot is plain rude, and neither of those beheviours should be rewarded. i'm proud to say that none of my characters have this title, and i promptly drop any random who says they're still working on theirs. there are so many other titles that actually have accomplishments, and yet there is so much effort focused on a title that shows nothing except your ability to alt-f4. --Honorable Sarah [[image:Honorable_Icon.gif]] 00:49, 2 June 2007 (CDT)
 * All the legendary survivors I know, never PUG. They receive all necessary exp. through skill capping, and get run everywhere early on. Sure there are noobs who go for it, but never the less, it is a very difficult title to earn. What kami did was clean-up a rundown article, and the outcome was positive. I understand why you may be against this title and or article, but that does not entitle you to be rude. Just saying... Readem (talk *contribs ) 01:02, 2 June 2007 (CDT)