User talk:Entropy/Archive 25

first
Spam less plx kthx. (T/C) 00:49, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Hello. -- Dr R. Phalange 01:21, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
 * third spam Cress Arvein [[Image:Cress sig.JPG]] 01:51, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Spam? I simply greeted Entropy. You, sir, are the spammer. Hrumph! -- Dr R. Phalange 02:23, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

You and everyone else. :/ Lord Belar 02:40, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

MSN
If you have the time, could you log on I have something I would like to ask you privately :) -- Shadowphoenix  03:01, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Waiting. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:12, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Says you are not online :P -- Shadowphoenix  03:16, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Whoops, equated MSN to AIM. One minute. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 03:19, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Violence inherent in the system
04:21, 31 May 2008 (hist) (diff) m GuildWiki:Requests for adminship‎ (only bureaucrat can do that, when the RfA is officially successful or closed)

Help! Help! I'm being oppressed! ;)   Banjthulu  is better than you 04:16, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah - let Entropy handle that bit - she can find out what happened and note it in a mental log if required. Random Time 05:26, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Whats there to find out? HB started a nomination, I declined. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 05:29, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Meh - nice Monty Python Ref Random Time 05:36, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I was confused because I saw a user closing an RfA before a bureaucrat made a decision on it. This is usually not allowed. However, since May declined and thus closed it, it was OK. It's just a rare thing to happen. (T/C) 23:23, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm aware, don't worry about it. Just seemed like a golden opportunity to make a Monty Python reference (and I seldom pass up such opportunities).  The fact that I got to link to the overly abused YAV policy was an added bonus.  [[Image:Banjthulu IPU.png‎|50x19px|Gott ist tot]]  Banjthulu  is better than you 23:27, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry...
To have caused you distress, indirectly or otherwise :(.   Banjthulu  is better than you 22:24, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Oi
One week? Thats a bit steep isnt it? I'd say, at the very most, 3 days. Possibly one day, or just an hour, since its your first offense! :o &mdash; Warw/Wick 18:26, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Create A Hero contest
You are invited to join. Check it out!reanor 04:38, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

So
User talk:Banjthulu. I am interested in your views on this recent development. 03:02, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * "I-Told-You-So"'s are ugly things. Was it he who attempted to get you banned for the accusations though? I don't remember for sure. &mdash; Powersurge360 Violencia  03:04, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Why yes. Yes it was. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 03:08, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It was mostly User:Banjthulu and User:R.Phalange who kept resurrecting the issues against Felix, yes. &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 03:37, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

What do you want of me? (T/C) 03:53, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm just curious to know if you're aware of certain things your "friends" have been doing, like socking and bashing me in IRC. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 04:02, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * WTB less wiki drama.... oh fuck it, this is exciting. FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! ASSHATTERY BAN! GO GO! &mdash;♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 04:07, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not interested in a fight. I'd just like to see if Entropy is capable of disappointing me one last time. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 04:08, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Did you ever consider that perhaps it's you who's disappointing her, instead of the other way around?  &not; Wizårdbõÿ777  ( talk ) 04:10, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Do you want my honest answer, Felix? Alright then, here it is.

Go fuck yourself.

That's the last that I am ever speaking to you. I hope you're happy with what you have sown and reaped. (T/C) 04:14, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm not exactly disappointed. [[Image:Felix_Omni_Signature.png]] 04:16, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * You appear to have learned decorum, Felix. Now learn mercy and grace, please. --mendel 14:41, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Stop it, Felix. Entropy is evidently pissed off enough as it is. What is with you? If you can't control your anger, take it somwhere else. And your spite. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 14:47, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Decorum? Pretty sure the only thing Felix is demonstrating knowledge of here is how to be an ass. - 71.224.123.149 17:46, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Please read my comments on the admin notice board regarding this: linky!&mdash;♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 22:55, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
I love you! Don't leave. TBH, I find myself frustrated with Wikia. But when I go try to edit at GWW, I feel literally sick. To think of all the time I spent here, all the work I put it, all the respect and reputation I built, all the stuff I had going here, and to go over there, I feel so sad. This wiki is still superior in content and in my opinion, policy. Plus, over here, I don't stare at RC watching a vandal helplessly lol. You are an inspiration, always able to provide insight comments and someone who's opinion I will always value. Also, you're hot. <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 &mdash;♥ Jedi ♥ Rogue ♥ 04:16, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Entropy, you do realise that you are about the only thing keeping this wiki alive, correct? You are needed here just as much as you were before the Wikia move. If you leave, well, I will start to consider stop contributing to this wiki. You are the backbone, heart, and soul of this wiki and with you gone this wiki will be no more than a hollow shell. I am sorry for being so blunt, but I speak the truth. Please do not leave, I beg of you -- Shadowphoenix  04:27, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Wow, that much drama really feels like it should be accompanied by a famous Shakespeare quote or something. In any case, I'm sorry you feel this way and I hope you'll reconsider, but if not: Best of luck wherever life takes you. You will be missed.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]]Entrea  [Talk]  04:31, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, the I beg of you part may have been a bit much; but everythign else was completely serious -- Shadowphoenix  04:33, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * You might not want my advice, but here it is anyway: don't do anything drastic.  Myriad impending catastrophes looming just over the horizon have failed to materialize throughout human history.  If you'd been considering quitting for a long time anyway, then maybe now is the right time.  But if it's solely because of the advertising changes, why not just wait and see what will happen, and then decide?  Quizzical 05:49, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with Shadow... I fear that this wiki will die away without Entropy. Don't know why though? Maybe we just got so used to her being here, we don't know what it would be like without her. It will be sad to see her go Silver Sunlight [[Image:SSunlight.jpg|19px]] 09:52, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * the wiki didn't die when she wasnt here.. so it wont die now. [[Image:ShadyGuy.jpg]] 11:40, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

JediRogue - I'm not going to GWW either...I have no business over there. No worries. Guild Wars the game is dead for me now, and probably forever too. Also, you've still never seen pics of me, and although this would seem a suitable opportunity to upload some, I feel less inclined than ever. But I appreciate the sentiment anyways.

Quizzical - while I would say that was the "last straw", it is certainly not the only reason I have chosen to leave. (In fact, most of them are home-turf problems - it's just that Wikia's thing kind of supercedes such petty matters.) I'm no martyr nor am I that rash. Moreover I am quite certain that Wikia has no intention of changing their minds... (T/C) 20:02, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

...


In all seriousness, this is tragic enough that I'm logging in. That's pretty fucking serious, Entropy.

Armond 04:24, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

An Acquaintance's Good-Byes
I know I don't know you well, but I'm very sad to see you go. You've definately pulled a lot of the weight here and I, personally, am very grateful for that. Be sure to take care out there in the wide world, not every place is as welcoming as GWiki. Best of luck with everything you do.

Good bye, mon capitan. &mdash; Powersurge360 Violencia  04:29, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * No contribs doesn't mean you can't be a community focused social leecher. Keep that in mind for the future.[[Image:Ereanorsign.jpg]]reanor 05:19, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Farewell, Entropy. I agree with your reasons (hey, it's why I'm a lurker!) but I hope those left can hold the database together for a while - it's still better than GWW in places. Unfortunately, the community here is imploding with too many vocal asshats, so I'm not sure anyone will stick around much longer.Lurkerabove 09:21, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Gl, hf. Sorry to see you go. Lord of all tyria 11:43, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll tell you the same thing I told Tanaric (partially because your reasons for resigning echo his own eerily), "I truly wish I could convince you to stay, but this is your decision, and it's not my place to debate it. Either way, goodbye and good luck." I know this couldn't have been an easy decision for you. I just hope that, in the end, when you look back on it, you have no regrets (or, at the very least, you don't feel that you did the wrong thing). *Defiant Elements*  +talk  14:00, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

This is what volunteer work is all about. When the bad outweighs the good, you shift your obligations to others and leave. Even if it hurts to let the good go. Enjoy yourself elsewhere, I'm sure you'll be an asset to any community you care to join. May the road always rise to meet you. --mendel 14:57, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not a sentimental person, so I can't think of much to say here. Your announcement was certainly a shock, and you will be sorely missed (if you couldn't tell that from everyone else's comments). You were the one who brought me "into the fold", as it were, by entrusting me with sysop duties - I haven't been this active in an internet community for a loooong time. &mdash;Dr Ishmael 15:56, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

No...
Please, Entropy. Your inactivity was alright, but downright leaving..

Well, just to say this; Everyone on the wiki looked up to you. Many people have built you as a role model. Without you in the equation, I can't help but think that the wiki will degrade more and more..

I suppose that, truly, the older generation of GuildWikians has left. If you leave I am certain that people will pack their bags and do the same.

Care as you may, I know that you once cared about this wiki; Please, don't go. If its merely a facade of existance here, keep it up, for the wiki in spirit, since I know you cannot abide whats happening to it.

But no, I am being selfish here. You're the spirit of the wiki. In a way, you'll always be here.

Goodbye, Entropy. &mdash; Warw/Wick 14:17, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * .[[Image:Ereanorsign.jpg]]reanor 14:43, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I've been trying to avoid such a faked existence for a long time, May, and that is precisely why I am leaving...I can't commit such a lie. I can't fake activity, caring, compassion. It would be a lie to myself and the community. If I'm here, I'm here in full. I still care about this Wiki so much, yet I can no longer bring myself to contribute meaningfully, as that condones another evil (or should I say, a sad truth of life). [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 20:02, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * All I can say is its your choice. Dont let the door hit you on your way out. :( &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 20:05, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

We love you
We all love you and goodbye

--Hel llb rin ger 14:50, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

And now, for the ultimate farewell ritual...
Can I have your stuff? I'm only partially joking. --Macros 15:13, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * She is gone for good. She will never respond. Unless she gets bored where ever she goes. --<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="red">Hel <font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="yellow">llb <font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="green">rin <font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="black">ger 15:19, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * She has already passed on her powers, and you can't have her contributions or her reputation. What else is there? --mendel 15:33, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Her love she left for the wiki. --<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="red">Hel <font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="yellow">llb <font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="green">rin <font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="black">ger 15:36, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Her userboxes? >.> &mdash;Dr Ishmael [[Image:Diablo_the_chicken.gif]] 15:45, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Ahh that too. :'( --<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="red">Hel <font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="yellow">llb <font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="green">rin <font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="black">ger 15:53, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

You can borrow anything and everything in my namespace - templates, userboxes, images, archives, etc. Just be mindful of attribution. As to in-game stuff for Guild Wars itself...well, to be honest I am too lazy to move all that crap (hundreds upon hundreds of items), but if there's something you want in particular that I have you're free to it. I would never outright delete my characters since I may just possibly use GW for socializing or such, or come back to the game if it ever looks like fun again...so I don't think I'll be giving all my stuff away wholesale. (T/C) 20:02, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

See you again..
..for Guild Wars 2 / Guild Wars 2 Wiki? -- Dr R. Phalange 15:56, 11 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Goodbye Entropy, hope to see you again. And I doubt that will happen. -_- Cress Arvein [[Image:Cress sig.JPG]] 15:57, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I think I owe it to you to say goodbye. Goodbye entropy. I hope you won't totally desert us :( --<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="Steelblue">Shadowcrest  16:01, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

I refuse to buy Guild Wars 2 - ANet has clearly demonstrated to me that they have lost the magic they once had, in the way they have been handling GW1 and responding to player complaints. As such, you shouldn't look for me on GW2W. (Moreover, GW2W still carries some of the...acrimony...of GWW with it, although I have to say it's better. So even if I was to go there, it would be with distaste already.) (T/C) 20:02, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

ouch
Well, I suppose I can't say I didn't see it coming. In some comments your feelings showed clearly, which was mainly being agitated. Right/Wrong? Doesn't matter, actually. Suppose I won't be able to enjoy walls of text signed with a pink sig anymore. Ah well, in the end you're the one deciding what you want to do. Good luck, and more importantly, have fun, with whatever you choose to do next. --- -- (s)talkpage  16:31, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I check my watchlist and about shit myself on this one. I am sorry that all the events lead up to this point, but this is your decision and yours alone to make.  I wish you happiness and prosperity where ever life may take you from here.  Please just don't be a stranger, stop in and see us sometimes. And get on AIM every once and a while too :P xoxo-- [[Image:Isk8.png]]   I~sk8   (T/C) 22:48, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Best wishes
Hi Entropy,

I have been watching this community for a while (since long before I started posting), and I have always been impressed with your professional decorum, your tremendous leadership ability, and your excellent problem resolution skills. While I wish it didn't have to end like this, I understand why you feel the way that you do. You have always been a pleasure to work with, even when it has been clear that you would rather the circumstances be such that we wouldn't be talking in the first place. GuildWiki won't be the same without you, but I wish you nothing but the best in your future endeavors.

-- KyleH (talk) 23:38, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I've been browesing the GWW for a while befor  becoming a user and just wanted to say that i'll miss your unique purpplish/pink signature dotting the talk pages.GL, and may we meet at the clearing at the end of the path...Roland Cyerni 00:03, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Ah, Mr. Harmon...that's very kind of you. I would hope that it is implicit, but...it's not you, Sansse, Danny, etc. which I have a problem with. Personally I think all of you at Wikia are pretty nice people, and as far as direct requests go you are pretty good at satisfying customers. Even when there are some larger problems, like the issues with the user database merge, I have always been impressed with how the Wikia staff worked to resolve our grievances in as timely a manner as can be expected. Most people who requested a rename got it; so even though it created a lot of tension at first, that situation is mostly resolved peaceably. I know that Wikia is a HUGE company encompassing millions of users and hundreds (thousands?) of different Wikis, and so you folks are always busy. Therefore I have always been fairly satisfied with our interactions since the move.

The thing that really bugs me, then, is "management" - your bosses - the people who really run Wikia...I have never much liked the way they run the business, and their latest decision was just too much. I know that it wasn't KyleH's decision; he is just following orders and doing his job, and anyways there is little he can do to change things. That's why I don't blame you or any of the other Wikia people on a personal level. And even for those bosses, I can't blame them either - the fact of life, is that you've got to make a living. While there are always suspicions of corporate greed and fat cats...I assume good faith unless given a serious reason to think otherwise. When the original Wikia Move issue came up, and we all knew that there was a great probability that User:Gravewit was hoodwinking us - well, that is different, since there was all but overwhelming evidence, and even skeptics could not be totally doubt-free. But in this current case, I am not well enough informed to render judgment. I do not know what Wikia's profits are; I am not well versed in the copyright license laws; I don't know if donations would work, as Danny pointed out somewhere along the line. It would be messy at best. More ads is admittedly a rather simple decision with considerable kickback involved, but it gets the job done. The problem is that as an experienced Wiki editor, such things are naturally abhorrant to me. "Ads in an article? Bah! GuildWiki has really been sold now..." That reflects my thoughts, and those of many others.

So...yeah. I've always appreciated working with you also, and I just want to make sure you're clear that I put none of the responsibility for this problem at your feet. To be honest, I kind of pity you - we Wiki folk give you a lot of flak to answer to. :) It must be a tough line of work. Reminds me of Gaile Gray... (T/C) 00:18, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you
I wish to here express my gratitude for all of your kind words, wishes, and farewells. Although I will not be "hanging up the spurs" until the latest development is finished (as I am involved in it), I want to state that while I sincerely wish I could stay...I've made up my mind. The last thing I do as a plain old user will probably be the Create A Hero contest...after that I don't know.

It pains me that you all feel so strongly, knowing that I am hurting you through this decision. But sometimes to do what you feel is right requires sacrifices, and I can't go any further down that road...as Mendel said, at a certain point the burdens just become too much for mere volunteer work, even though it's always been more than that for me. (Though to be honest - even if this was a paid position, I would still probably be leaving.)

I'll miss you all... :( (T/C) 00:47, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * We love you Entropy. :'( --<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="red">Hel <font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="yellow">llb <font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="green">rin <font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="black">ger 02:02, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Well this sucks right here doesn't it? Sad to see you go, you've done an amazing job single handedly during a time of great change and instability for the GWiki. I wouldn't mind some more defined documentation on the reasons why you're leaving, in particular your objections to the various decisions made by Wikia and how they've handled things. I'd suggest that the Wikia staff like Kyle are able to escalate the major problems/trends they see even if they're not calling all the shots themselves they're probably in the ear of those that do. The high turnover of GWiki administration staff cannot be a good sign for the health and future of the wiki and I'm sure they're aware of this. Even if you've been contacted privately I'd still love to see it on the "public record" so that we can all make some attempt at addressing underlying issues. It may also help you to be less torn by the decision, although your mind does look like it's been firmly made up. It's a selfish request and probably not something you're terribly excited about doing at the moment but I'm still going to ask anyway! Good luck and enjoy your new free time, maybe go out and do an oil change, I've found working on my car totally removed from a computer to be remarkably therapeutic! Or perhaps not, but do have some fun doing your own thing! --Xasxas256 03:26, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, Xas, I could do that privately if you wish...it's not that I have anything confidential to say, but rather that the "public record" (the Wiki) is a bad place to express my personal opinions on such topics, at least in the way you want. Part of it is out of respect to the individuals involved - I have no wish to publicly accuse them of things which may not even be true. Part of it is out of prudence - I have some reasons which could be interpreted in a negative light, and it would reflect badly on myself or GuildWiki in general.
 * I think that the Wikia staff has power insomuch as they are the "messengers" who carry vital information. But as to how much actual influence they have over those that call the shots...I suspect that the best they can do is give an overly rosy/dire representation of something. The management likely doesn't concern itself with individual Wiki's affairs anyways, especially one which is relatively small like GuildWiki.
 * Hah...work on my car? I don't know anything about cars, that's a thing for Men(tm) :p I may use the time to start learning guitar, or go and MUD some more. [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 04:58, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

/resign
/sad  &not; Wizårdbõÿ777  ( talk ) 05:04, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

block
I've blocked you for a day for the personal attack on Felix. I doubt the block will affect you much due to your hiatus, but it's still a reminder that we all need to exercise better control over our emotions. - Auron 10:00, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Loophole
The loophole, it is fixed. --mendel 21:33, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Loophole? Rukias Tonarim 19:52, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Banned user can edit their talkpage <font color="Orange">Random Time 19:54, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, I heard that was done by Wikia so that people can contest their ban on their talkpages? Guess whoever said that was wrong. Rukias Tonarim 20:03, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * That was the case. As Mendel just said, it's been fixed. No-one was wrong. -- R [[Image:RPhalange star.png|18px]] Phalange  20:11, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Alrighty then. Thanks. Rukias Tonarim 20:18, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi
Read.-- (Talk) (Contr.) 01:32, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * qq [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 17:42, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * ?--[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 20:59, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I think entropy /care'd you. :p &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 21:02, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * ?--[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 21:03, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * /care = "I dont give a shit tbh" :p &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 21:06, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm... whatever...--[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 21:07, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I guess I'm sorry you feel that way then...--[[Image:Marcopolo47 signature new.jpg]] (Talk) (Contr.) 21:08, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Allow me to explain: QQ could be referred to as QQ moar, which usually means that somone is complaining and the person they're complaining to doesn't care... So, yeah. &mdash;[[Image:MaySig.png]] Warw/Wick 21:09, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Ouch. Rukias Tonarim 14:27, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Poke
--Gimmethegepgun 02:58, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I would have expeted at least a hidden comment or something for all the trouble of making me click on the "You have new messages" banner.
 * In other news, the editing window continues to be totally messed up, in that it continually has major lagbursts before updating the text with what I type. Which makes it less than appealing to edit anything. It's like using a Telnet client to play MUD :\ [[Image:Entropy Sig.jpg]] (T/C) 04:31, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Fun.[[Image:Entrea Sumatae.png|Entrea Sumatae]] Entrea   [Talk]  04:33, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * The text lag happens to me too. --<font face="vivaldi" size="3" color="Steelblue">Shadowcrest 04:33, 14 July 2008 (UTC)