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restrictions are nonsense[]

nonzeros below 4 make sense! Try Drider's Defenses with 3, sprint and blood ritual with 4, Balthazar's Aura , Life Barrier, Guardian with 6... and you find a lot of use for the 3 in 12 12 3 builds. You can not include 12 12 3 and exclude 12 9 9 3 no more than one nonzero attribute is below 8, what a bullshit exclusion. 12 10 6 6 is one of the best combinations, mesmers like it! "total levels" makes no sense unless its hard for you to sum up to 5 numbers. "leftover points" is a waste of space. --Ollj

The restrictions were for filtering out the useful info to be less subjective and succinct enough to be readable. They don't mean that other builds aren't viable (I'd avoid that distinction..). 12 12 3 and 12 9 9 3 were trivial to arrive at (from 12 12 +6 and 12 9 9 +6) in the same way that your version doesn't allocate the last 5 remaining points. 12 10 6 6 could be covered by listing it as one of "other popular allocations". --Rezyk 03:18, 7 Oct 2005 (EST)

looks atm quite good, now an over all same wide of the cells would look cute --HJT 00:58, 7 Oct 2005 (EST)

Sorry, but imho *all* the tables have to go. Listing all possible combinations of attributs for 3,4,5 or 6 skill lines is mathematical fingerwaving without any value to the reader. Either we dare to suggest a few (as in 3 to 5) combinations that we (subjectivly) think are good, or we dont list the combinations at all. At the moment there is no information on the page, just tons of numbers to get lost in. --Xeeron 09:53, 7 Oct 2005 (EST)

I'm putting up a version of the old table updated to address the recent changes and mentioned issues without blowing everything up. (I didn't see much reason to split up the table though) See what you think. --Rezyk 11:15, 7 Oct 2005 (EST)

Just a note: There's a complete guide available on GWG ( that illustrates the kind of insights available by scrutinising attribute spreads. Maybe that will help crystallise what this page is meant to convey. -- Serps 12:08, 7 Oct 2005 (EST)

My opinion[]

I'd like to add my voice to those who believe this page is a load of Charr doodoo, and if there are none, I'd like to pioneer. :) It is worthless to the user. By opening the Hero Status window and clicking the little up and down arrows, the user can see all this for himself (there are no refund point restrictions).

Think about turning this page into explaning what those different combinations mean or what they CAN do. For example, for an Air ele, 12 in Air magic is a great idea. The damage is raised so much more. But 12 in Energy storage is useless. an Air ele with a +12 focus item (or +10 staff) and air attunement NEVER runs out of energy. Now, don't get caught up in my example, think along the same lines, what are good uses/combinations for each set of distribution models? A nuker definitely needs 10+ in their "nuking" attribute. A defensive tank needs no more than 9 in their weapon attribute (just to satisfy the requirements of the weapon if even that).

Otheriwse, the only cleanup this article could use is deletion. --Karlos 15:17, 7 Oct 2005 (EST)

Derf. I'd like to point out my last edit, while harmless, was also accidental (though I'm still working on the page). I hit return accidentally (which saves the page, but I never save it that way, I always use the buttons). Whoops. --JoDiamonds 10:31, 31 October 2005 (EST)

New edit[]

While I like the text before the TOC, I don't particularly like the new tables or removing the "restrictions" list that described why we only have the given combinations and not all of them. Not that I liked the old table much, but I think it presented the numbers in a better way, mainly through compactness. --Fyren 15:01, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Attempted Some Cleanup[]

I like the idea of this page, in fact I found it because I had specific questions that it helped to answer. However, some of the terminology used, in particular the words "Null point" in the tables, made no sense. I changed some bits of the language to hopefully make it clearer. I'd hate to see this page deleted, I think it's useful even if still a bit confusing. - HarshLanguage 20:18, 5 November 2006 (CST)

Bit off topic, but for those who would support the deletion of this page, I check it every time I'm making a build... It's amazingly useful even when I can get on guild wars. I don't get lost in the numbers, in fact I find the variety of options quite useful. "Well, I could do 11 10 this this... but if I do 11 10 this that I save a few spare attribute points... or I could do 10 10 that the other and I'm using everything..." It really helps me figure out how to make a better build. --Armond Warblade Warrior(talk) 17:15, 19 June 2007 (CDT)

Info Location[]

Shouldn't this be put back in the AP page since the info on that one is so little and it would make it faster to just load it all then having to load another page cause this one doesn't even pop up in search


Usually, 12-12-3 is good. You can also do 12-8-10. This is probably mentioned in the guide tbh though.. --Warwick sig.JPG Warwick (Talk)/(Contr.) 17:53, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I also find myself using 11/10/8/6 (almost the only thing I'll ever do for a 4-attrib spread), 12-11-6 on most of my heros, (6 being energy management as they're generally very good with it) and it seems like the only time i bring 12/12/3 is if I'm an ele in need of a res, and the 3 is pretty much obsolete :/ 03:17, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


Should it be mentioned here (or somewhere else) that in Eye of the North you can have a 12/9/9/9 distribution if you're under lvl 20 (because of Journey to the North)? Sling007 19:53, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Quick fix[]

I just fixed that the top entry for six attributes read 8|8|8|8|7|5 with 0 left instead of 8|8|8|8|8|5 with 0 left but now I'm wondering why 8|8|8|8|8|4 with 5 left is on the list since that's a strictly worse version (a quick glance didn't reveal any other examples of strictly worse versions in the table). Should it just be deleted? anonymous 20:55, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

That line in fact should be deleted because with 5 left you can improve the 4 to 5, which is exactly what you put in there --Gimmethegepgun 21:04, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Runes (revised)[]

Why were the attribute increasing runes left out in the notes? That's at least noteworthy (if (un)popular).

And at the risk of sounding subjective I find for the three attribute build it is even possible to have three rank 13 attributes, which I'll now explain my method for.

Foreword: before we begin let me explain that this method is for achieving three rank 13 attributes based on the three attribute build with minimal penalties. To this end, you will have to forgo all other runes in favor of attribute bonus runes and health bonus runes as well as all other insignia in favor of the survivor's insignia. You will also have to forgo perfect weapons in favor of self customized items unless there are unique/perfect weapons out there with the +1 attribute bonus. In short this is a process to create a "perfect" character in favor of perfect equips at minimal cost.

Start with the "optimal" build of 11 10 10 and know now that you will need a weapon suffix upgrade of <attribute> or, for staff wielders, staff wrapping of <attribute>. Any will do just make sure that attribute is one of your 10's.

Note: Those of you who carry shields or focuses (Thanks firefox and your magical spellchecker--focusi, ftw??) can also use the inscription "Master of my domain" as an alternative or an addition if you want/have the money.

Starting with armor (that which runes apply to), you have four less than noteworthy pieces of it, and some form of headgear which gives +1 to an attribute of your choosing (when crafting). Five pieces of armor total, meaning five runes to work with, and three skills to work on. Attach a rune of major attribute (+2 <attribute>, -35 hp) for that same attribute to your head gear

Note: The headgear says that the +1 stacks, but the rune says that the +2 does not stack. Don't worry, you still get +3 I tried this myself. (Whew ^^;; epic relief when it worked).

Attach a rune of major attribute for your other 10 and your 11 to two other pieces of armor of your choosing so that you now have a modified attribute spread of 13 13 12 at the cost of 105 health (-35 - 35 - 35 = -105). Now attach a rune of superior vigor (+50 health) to one of your remaining two pieces of armor as well as a rune of vitae (+10 health) to that last piece of armor, in addition to applying a survivor's insignia (+15 to chest, +10 to legs, +5 to other) to each piece of your armor and you should have only a -5hp penalty (50 + 10 + 15 + 10 + 5 + 5 + 5 = 100 and 100 - 105 = -5). The attribute of your suffix upgrade and/or inscription should be the same as your 12. Now if you can get your hands on an of attribute suffix weapon upgrade you have a 10~20% chance for that to apply while using skills, and if you happen to carry a focus or shield inscribed with "Master of my domain" for that same attribute you have an additional 10~20% chance for the effect to apply while using skills.

Final Notes: This is an expensive process. Plan ahead, and pray to who/whatever that you don't mess up. You will be handicapped a whopping -5 hp. Your final attribute spread will be 13 13 12 (with 10~40% chance for that final, perfecting +1 depending on which "color" upgrades you used and whether or not you can/opted to double up with the "Master of my domain" inscription. I recommend that final rank 12 attribute be your weapon attribute as bonuses to attack damage and attack skills are minimal and less useful than other bonuses. I find it more useful anyway especially if your major attribute has an inherent bonus for rank 13 (such as the assassin's critical strikes awarding 3 energy for each critical hit at rank 13). You will have one unspent attribute point.

I can also include a shopping list if it helps to present all that you need in a clear and precise manner, as well as do some gold calculations for an approximate total cost (although the point, not to mention helpfulness, of such calculations eludes me since the cost of runes as well as inscriptions and the materials required to make various armors either from traders or other characters is highly subject to change, to put it simply). 04:16, 10 August 2009 (UTC)Temin the Gru

Revision Notes:

Two problems with your theory: Unless there's some collector or unique caster 1-handed weapon with a +1 mod, there's no possible way to have the main-hand and off-hand equips both have a +1 attribute mod.Gimmethegepgun 08:41, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
You don't need both your main hand and off hand equip to have the +1 attribute, only one will do, but two certainly helps. As I understand it, you can just use either the inscriptions or upgrades. Not everything needs to be perfect.
Second, runes of Vigor don't stack with each other. A rune of Vitae will, but 2 Vigors will not stack health. Oh, and the plural of focus is foci --Gimmethegepgun 08:41, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
There we go, I suspected there was some flaw to it. Really, I needed to bounce this off some people, which is why I posted it here in discussion first.

I suppose, since runes of vigor don't stack, you can always have the one rune of major <attribute> and be happy with your 13 11 10 character unless you don't mind hp handicaps. A few runes of vitae will compensate a second rune of major <attribute>, but you'll be forgoing other runes in favor of maximizing stats with no penalty (another point I forgot to mention in final notes, as only one rune can be equipped to any one piece of armor...)

Which brings up another important point I should have mentioned. Insignias are your armor prefix upgrades whereas runes are the suffix upgrade meaning you can still apply those lovely insignias you may want/have.Temin the Gru

After considering insignias I wrote this revision and hopefully managed to find a way around the Runes of vigor non-stacking rule by utilizing the effect of the survivor's insignia, also most lesser runes and insignia sell pretty cheaply so this whole process is a lot less expensive now. Someone please tell me if the survivor's insignia effect does not stack as this is the only possible flaw I can perceive. If you happen to catch any other flaws, please tell me about them as well.

...All that being said, the only question that remains is what are focuses? Temin the Gru

Focuses and Foci. --- VipermagiSig.JPG -- (contribs) (talk) 22:20, 10 August 2009 (UTC)