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Renaming[edit source]

Yes, months ago I came up with, and advocated for this name. Back then, chapter 2 skill descriptions and the new website were not available yet, so we were lacking vocabulary.

Because of the Ashes Spells, I believe the proper verb is Hold instead of Carry, and we need to redefine Item as well. Since this particular thing has no common player term for it, I advocate to use the vocabulary from the new website, "Bundle Item". Thoughts? -PanSola 07:39, 24 February 2006 (CST)

Link to "new website vocabulary"? Not doubting you, just want to check it out for myself. --Rainith 07:46, 24 February 2006 (CST)

Bundle Items
Bundle items are special objects in the game world that don't fit into your backpack or bag—your character must carry them in both hands, preventing you from using melee attack skills until the bundle item is set down. Bundle items are always associated with quest or mission objectives, and represent items that you must personally deliver somewhere else. Using instant map travel while carrying a bundle item will only rob you of the bundle item in question. Some special bundle items give you a magical bonus when you drop them (or while you carry them). In a group, bundle items are usually carried by professions that use magic, since carrying one does not prevent you from casting Spells, Enchantments, or other magical skills.

Maybe "Carrying" and "Holding" are different concepts, one for in-game special things only and the other for ashes only, or they can be interchangable. Most likely though, is a lack of sycronization between different writers d-: -PanSola 07:53, 24 February 2006 (CST)

Oh and yes, over at Talk:Trophy I already discussed the "trophy"... -PanSola 07:54, 24 February 2006 (CST)

Sounds like a good idea. You said new web site, I thought there was some Factions specific site I didn't know about. :) --Rainith 12:39, 24 February 2006 (CST)

Ok, because of the "Drop Bundle Button" interface element, I'm going to just rename them to "Bundle" instead of "Bundle item" (feels too bulky). Whatever is in the game trumps whatever is on the site. I doubt most ppl care anyways so I'll just wait one day and do the rename if no one objects. -PanSola 11:19, 1 March 2006 (CST)

One of these days I won't be surprised to see a "Throw Baby" button added to the UI. — Stabber 12:07, 1 March 2006 (CST)

On redirects.[edit source]

Seems to me that "bundle," which it is the game's name, is really non-intuitive (also inaccurate, but I don't want to go there). I feel like we really need to figure out a generic term or two ("carried object" seems like a good candidate) and create those as redirects. While I know people don't talk about this kind of thing on forums a whole lot, we definitely need to find 1-2 of the most popular terms from the GW community and use them as redirects, since most people don't call them "bundles" (whether most people call them anything at all is, I think, debatable). --130.58 18:11, 2 March 2006 (CST)

I agree. "Carried Object" seemed like a much more intuitive name to me, even though it is not "offical". The same goes for "carry" instead of hold. --Tetris L 18:18, 2 March 2006 (CST)
The button to get rid of a "carried object" is named "Drop Item." I don't know about you, but I tend to think of "Hold" before "Carry" as the antonym. - Evil_Greven 18:18, 2 March 2006
"Held Item" seems like a reasonable enough name, too. --130.58 19:31, 2 March 2006 (CST)

Bundles != Items?[edit source]

According to our current definition, an item is anything that goes into the inventory. This would mean that bundles are not items. This seems to be wrong, as the drop button says "Drop Item". Hence we should change the defintion of "item". --Tetris L 18:33, 2 March 2006 (CST)

Renaming Revisited[edit source]

Point the first: The UI editor might call it "Drop Bundle", but the text on the button itself, which is pretty much the only text you ever see, is "Drop Item".

Point the second: In the English language, the word "bundle" generally cannot be used to refer to objects such as flags, broken ballista bits, or Arks of the Covenant.

Point the third: Ritualist "hold" ashes. As pointed out in the discussion above, "hold" and "drop" are natural antonyms. This seems like the most natural term for the action, and is already used by many different skills in the game.

Point the fourth: The guy who teaches you about these things is called the Master of Items. He tells you to "carry" this and "take" that, but never uses the word "bundle" (nor "hold", to be fair).

Point the fifth: Channeled Strike refers explicitly to "holding an item". This trumps any half-assed reference buried three layers down in menus or in some neglected corner of ANet's website.

The Crux of the argument: "Bundle" is a term that's well-hidden in the official stuff, has 0 traction with actual players, is linguistically counter-intuitive, and sounds downright silly.

Suggested course of action: Change name to "Held Item" and have "Bundle" redirect to that.

Anyone have a counter-argument? --130.58 19:56, 2 March 2006 (CST)

I would argue that at least some of the argument is objective and spurious. (Truly no offense.)
  • True: Bundle is not known to players. But nothing else is known to players, so using the official name seems as good as any to me.
  • In general, GuildWiki has a history of trying very hard to stick to "official" wordings and terminology, and not trying to coin its own terms that players don't already know. "Held Items" (or anything similar) is not something players already know.
  • I don't find it linguistically counter-intuitive in any particular respect, or sillier than any other name.
  • At the least, that leaves not much crux to the argument. I don't feel incredibly strongly about this, but it seems like Bundle is the term arena net probably uses internally (seriously, they must call it something), and frankly "Held Item" doesn't roll off the tongue any better than "Bundle", and is more awkward to write and refer to. Bundle is at least relatively clear and unambiguous. The average player / reader will still confuse "Held Item" with "random item I am holding in my inventory", so I don't think that's much of a win. Bundle is at least weird enough that they'll know to look it up.
  • I have no problem with using the word "hold" or "held" all over the place. It's the appropriate verb. But I do feel that "bundle" is the appropriate noun., not "item" (as item is far too generic).
  • To some extent, I'm certainly playing devil's advocate because, well, you asked for it. =) But I really do like "Bundle" more than "Held Item". If only because of warping word usage -- having to say, "You're weapons and secondary items aren't active when you have a Held Item" just seems stranger than me to than saying, "... Bundle". Heck, making up a totally new word would have been better, because it's less confusing. People usually know they don't know what a totally made up word is. =)
--JoDiamonds 03:23, 3 March 2006 (CST)
Channeled Strike explicitly refers to holding items, however (and we have a Master of Items teaching you about flags and levers). My argument is that this is actually a stronger reason to use the term than the references to "bundle," both of which are hidden away deep in the GW website and the game options. --130.58 06:41, 3 March 2006 (CST)
Give me some time to consider the arguments and decide which side I am on, and whether I have anything to add to any side of the issue. -PanSola 04:40, 3 March 2006 (CST)

{{PAGENAME}}[edit source]

I don't think {{PAGENAME}} is meant to be used like this. It seems like a bad idea simply considering that it forces capitalization and doesn't allow for conjugations/modifications (not that this article needs any). It should probably only get used in templates and the like when you need the name and don't know it beforehand. -- 03:55, 3 March 2006 (CST)

I'm totally fine with that, and thought it was a little weird. I followed form because it was there already, presumably because someone was thinking about changing the name of the page. --JoDiamonds 06:04, 3 March 2006 (CST)
Also seems a little silly to me to use something that is 12 characters long to say something that is only 6 characters long. Just my personal thought. --Rainith 06:06, 3 March 2006 (CST)

Game update[edit source]

Moving to Talk:Book trick.