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Where exactly is all this information coming from? Is this personal opinion (calculations) or from a site that has had a sneak peak? Sorry, this just really throws me for a loop. Nalee Everborn 02:37, 20 September 2006 (CDT)

I've removed most of it, except Mantra of Inscriptions + elite signet and WY! — Skuld 02:46, 20 September 2006 (CDT)

Non-warrior secondaries[]

Has anyone tried out any non-warrior seconadries besides inscriptions? it would seem a major balance issue if all paragons ended up using "Watch Yourself" with no other seconadries. (though naturally I will have one of these. :) ) Minionman 8:01 PM central U.S. time, 8th October, 2006

Spirits count as allies, so ritualist spirits will give energy back from shouts and chants. IN addition, Anthem of Flame WILL cause spirits like Pain to set foes on fire. Dunno how useful it'll be, but it's certainly interesting for team setups. --Crazytreeboy 15:02, 28 October 2006 (CDT)
Also, necromancer minions count as allies, and get benefits from shouts and chants. I'm not totally sure how well it'll work out, but I'm testing a minion mastery paragon build right now, focusing on Leadership (primarily to reduce shout and chant cost), Motivation, and Death Magic. Anyone have any thoughts? Troglodyte 22:51, 31 October 2006 (CST)
Bit late, but here's a big one: Combine with Shambling Horrors. I don't care what else you do, Anthem of Flame is just that kickass. --Armond Warblade Warrior(talk) 04:02, 17 March 2007 (CDT)
Anthem of flame only works on attack skills. — Skuld 04:05, 17 March 2007 (CDT)

Plague signet and cautery signet make a good combo?[]

May I remove the notice about these two skills being a good combo because they're both elite and I think we can all agree that using arcane mimicry (the only way to get both) just to pass burning onto a foe is less than productive.

I changed it to plague touch.--TheDrifter 22:39, 23 December 2006 (CST)


Hey is this posible to be a paragon/dervish and be able to use like a avatar of dwayna or soming i rearly wana no so plz do tel me if u want to no my name on nightfal its Farser talder ok thanks now by by.

You can learn and use any skill with any character. But, as Avatars are linked to Dervishes' primary attribute, only a Dervish primary can invest attribute points into Mysticism. So your P/D's transformation will only last 15 seconds, instead of more than a minute for a Dervish with 12 Mysticism Utaku Mu Dan


Do Shouts and Chants which react when an ally uses an attack skill work on Pet Attacks? If so, Paragon Rangers and Ranger Paragons could make use of this, and if not, it should be mentioned so in the article Leeroythefeared 13:45, 24 February 2007 (CST)

No. — Skuld 14:42, 24 February 2007 (CST)

Actually, yes, but it only works with a bear, as they are the only pet with a natural attack skill.

That skill is not classified as a Pet AttackSkuld 11:40, 1 March 2007 (CST)

Erh, do Minions count as allies? --SigmA Omigod.jpg 14:36, 28 March 2007 (CDT)

Yes I think so...Leeroythefeared 10:15, 11 April 2007 (CDT)

yes, as they used to be affected by "Fall Back!", before it was changed to specifically outlaw them. --Honorable Sarah Honorable Icon.gif 20:39, 11 April 2007 (CDT)
Fall Back still affects them as of this posting Lord Twitchiopolis 21:58, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
Tell me - have you bothered to check if "Fall Back!" affected them at the time that she said that? A F K sig 2.jpg A F K When Needed 22:08, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
Obviously no. I missed the post date. But for readers tuning in now, it is important to note that Fall Back will indeed affect minions at this time.Lord Twitchiopolis 16:56, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


With the number of conditions a Paragon can apply, wouldn't fragility work wonders for spike damage?

So can rangers, dervishes, warriors etc but that still doesn't make it "spike" damage. --Lania ElderfireMy Talk 23:24, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
technically, it'd be pressure damage, unless you could figure a way to add lots of very short conditions at once. see [Build:Me/N_Virulence_Spiker] --Honorable Sarah Honorable Icon.gif 23:41, 27 March 2007 (CDT)
The mention of Hex Breaker in this article should be deleted because I can't see how this is of special usefulness to the Paragon. Leeroythefeared 14:14, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
It's pretty important in PvP to prevent BoA assasins using shadow prison on you for a spike, but also for diversion to a lesser extent IMO. But yeah, it's pretty situational --Lania ElderfireMy Talk 16:02, 28 March 2007 (CDT)
Your shouts are insta-cast, its to protect against diversion — Skuld 16:42, 28 March 2007 (CDT)


Wouldn't splinter weapon be ideally suited to classes like the warrior and paragon who have lousy energy regeneration and few skills that let them strike multiple targets at the same time? -- Tansor 16:37, 30 March 2007 (CST)

      Well sort of, but generally this combination is used as "A party' best friend."
True, although there seem to be more splinter builds running around these days. It may at least be worth mentioning splinter weapon here as an alternative for those who want to take a more direct role in combat. -- Tansor 10:41, 2 April 2007 (CST)
I'm unsure of how to go about it, but some secondary class advantages seem to be implied. Rt for Splinter Weapon (for any martial class), Assassin for fast healing and Shadow Steps, Monk for reusable Rez, the list goes on. Would there be a better way to put it (possibly in the class page, highlighting posatives of that class as a secondary) rather than rewrite such advantages for each and every other class's secondary pages?Lord Twitchiopolis 21:53, 14 June 2009 (UTC)


The current bit under P/N says that chants and shouts could be useful for minions, but very few work for allies. Almost all of them target only party members--which does not include minions or pets. Should the note be removed? 404notfound 04:59, 15 April 2007 (CDT)

shouts affect them, my pet regularly has go for the eyes on it — Skuld 05:01, 15 April 2007 (CDT)
P/N are relatively weak Minion Masters, but don't sell short the value of shouts on a N/P. "Fall Back" DOES affect allies, and consequently heals minions while running. Actually a pretty useful trick in AB, as it helps your minions catch fleeing spellcasters...Lord Twitchiopolis 21:55, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
Two years and two months old.
Make a minion out of the conversation as P/N or N/P or whatever, but let the conversation die again please. A F K sig 2.jpg A F K When Needed 22:02, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
Timestamps and I are not friends ^_^' But there's no need to be so critical of me. If commenting on an old topic is so wrong, why don't we deleate the entire bloody topic?Lord Twitchiopolis 17:00, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


see Category talk:Profession combinations#why delete --Honorable Sarah Honorable Icon.gif 22:37, 11 May 2007 (CDT)

Epidemic + Anthem of Flame?[]

This combination seems rather weak, Paragons don't have any skills which can inflict more than 3 seconds of Burning, and can inflict area Burning with Blazing Finale. What about Deep Wound? -- Gordon Ecker 20:16, 27 July 2007 (CDT)

P/D and P/R[]

The current remarks in those 2 profession combinations are not very useful at all.

Ranger's have far more, far better running skills than the Paragon. These skills can be combined with Paragon skills to create an effective running build that relies heavily on the secondary skills.

Look at the above statement, you can replace the word Paragon with any other profession, and the statement still make sense. The same problem with the Para/Derv statement. I would revert those 2 if no one else objects. --Voidvector 16:34, 19 January 2008 (UTC)


As i was going through some random pages i noticed that alot of the info on this page is outdated. Several categories have info on builds that used to work but have been nerfed, with no further information. I also see many things in here that are general to any class. As in the /me info where it says mirror of disenchantment is good for removing aegis chains. This doesnt actually seem to me a good reason to use /me just for a paragon but for any class... In that case you could add hundreds of reasons for every secondary stating single use reasons why to put it as your secondary. If i am the only person that feels this way that is fine. But if someone agree's I might look at re-writing some of the information on this page. K2zeplin 00:09, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Most of the "secondary profession" guides are full of crap and no one wants to bother fixing them anymore. For Mesmer secondary though, that actually is/was common at least for PvP, as Paragons don't many skills to be effective. Moreover they usually have abundance of extra energy from Leadership, and were also in the midline. It made sense. Expel Hexes was another one to put on Para often. Entropy Sig.jpg (T/C) 01:56, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Alternative to /W?[]

This page is remarkably uninformative. Is there any particularly useful secondary for a Paragon besides Warrior? I don't want to run a generic P/W if I can avoid it. I'm planning on going Motivation primarily... I know it's not as good as a Monk or a Rit but I already have both of those and I thought running a healer para would be fun (even if they are constantly being nerfed). Any suggestions? Qing Guang 16:54, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Go /Mo for Rebirth if it's PvE you're interested in. If it's for PvP, /Rt has some nice resurrection options. Paragons generally can't afford the attribute points required to make Conjures worthwhile because they typically need decent Spear for damage, decent Leadership for energy, and either Command or Motivation for a shield. You could forgo the shield in PvE because enemies probably won't target you much anyway and dump some points in a Conjure if damage interests you. Here's something else to consider: Serpent's Quickness. Paragons can get a constant IAS without a stance, so why not give it a try? Serpent's Quickness would allow you to pump out heals a bit more often. If you want to go pure party support, dig up an old pvxwiki build and trot out Expel Hexes. Lazuli 18:26, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
Run sig of return if you need a res in pvp. Run sig of return if you need a res in pve. This page was a goldmine of.. Bullshit, until I rewrote it. Paragons are rarely used nowdays for much. They were previously ( comes to mind), but not anymore. If you run anything not imbagon on a para in pve, go away :p. —MaySig.png Warw/Wick 18:42, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
Stunning Strike says hi. To be honest, the reason you don't see anything else than imbagon these days is that you rarely see pugs, except for people who do elite missions or dungeons, and people who play a certain mission for the first time. And monk resses on a para aren't all that bad. --Progger.png - talk 18:45, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
Hrm. Well, thanks, Lazuli. I hadn't considered that. I think I will go /R... And hey, then I can play around with having a pet when I'm not doing piddly low-level stuff. Qing Guang 19:57, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
Only reason to go Ranger was for Wilderness stuff like Inscend Arrows(Before they were nerfed back to useless) plus GlowSig/"T.o.Fire" ...and Stormchaser for extra Energy gain. Infact every profesion used to be workable including Ele(Stoneflesh + Angelic used to be a great Bonding option). Now you have to Specialize. But If it's just for Adren gain... then Blood Magic works just fine at pretty much any level. The only real concern is just maintaining enough energy/adren for yourself to actually power "TNtF" in PvE. But as you can see, Anet isn't done nerfing Goons and never will be so this "guide" is indeed just Bullshit now as was quoted above. And In PvP these days, it sounds like "Healing" and Protection are no longer even an option so you're better off just countering Assns or shelving it all-together :p --ilrIlr d-small.png
Well, I figure I'm going to run my first ever straight-up character. All my other characters run at least one skill not of their profession... but I think I'll run her plain para. I really just took /R to move on with the plot and so I could put a pet in my HoM. I'm not too worried about PvP as I only do RA and AB, and sometimes TA. Qing Guang 05:54, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
As for Signet of Return, it's not that desirable because it relies on lots of party members being bunched together for a powerful resurrect. In some varieties of PvP, there aren't anywhere near enough party members allowed to make it worthwhile. However, it can be nice to save your secondary profession for something other than a hard resurrect. Yeah, Signet of Return works fine in PvE, but you should consider taking Rebirth somewhere on your team to get out of tragic situations. It isn't necessary, but when dealing with the idiocy of PUGs, you might want it. Lazuli 16:52, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Well, yeah, I usually keep Rebirth as a staple on my bar if I'm /Mo and I'll make my heroes take /Mo for Rebirth if they don't need their secondary. However, at least I have Sunspear Rebirth Signet. I think I may be running this with my guildies anyway... and we're all going for Survivor, so if we need a rez we have a bigger problem. If I'm PUGging... well, at least I'll be one of the healers, so I'll hopefuly be keeping people from dying. Qing Guang 18:22, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Vocal was Sogolon[]

Kinda bad imo. While you might be able to maintain shouts for longer, you aren't adding any pressure or building adrenaline, and therefore not able to manage your energy as well. --JonTheMon 04:32, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

it's better on a Rt/P than a P/Rt I think. Felix Omni Signature.png 04:33, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
I'd agree with that. --JonTheMon 04:44, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
True enough, but it an area worth exploring more before writing off. Considering that most Motivation skills don't requite adrenaline... Lord Twitchiopolis 21:46, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
Paragon's energy management You use adrenaline based shouts / chants, they're still affected by it, you see. A F K sig 2.jpg A F K When Needed 22:01, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
I realize this, but that wasn't the point. Point is that use of Vocal was Sogolon should be looked into more before being written off entirely. I was suggesting a P/Rt using motivation skills that are non adrenaline based. With a spread something like 10 leadership, 10 Resto, 11 motivation (which I believe is an achievable point spread, correct me if I'm wrong), 5 energy shouts are still free, the effective cost of higher energy shouts is still reduced, and adrenaline skills are not nessicerey. What few motivation skills do utilize adrenaline can be reached through proper timing of the ashes skill or use of Signet of Aggression . Not saying this is an ideal build, but it's a possible one. Unless you've tried it yourself, I wouldn't give it too bad a rap.Lord Twitchiopolis 17:08, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
Then you're missing the point of a paragon. It's both support and damage, that's what makes it effective. Without a spear it's just.... support, and at that point might as well bring a LoD/HB monk. --JonTheMon 14:04, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Drop the ashes after the chants then Lord Twitchiopolis 05:42, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
So every 30s for 10 energy (plus attribute investment) you drop your spear and shield and use some chants, then wait 30s before using any more chants? --JonTheMon 16:26, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Obviously not, but you use the ashes to increase duration of those that would best benefit from it.Lord Twitchiopolis 16:48, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Long and short, I say that it is "possible" just not "recommended". There's a lot of stuff that's possible, like Healing Hands + mending Wammo, but we don't recommend it. --JonTheMon 18:55, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

P/A and P/D[] --Anthonie 11:30, July 13, 2010 (UTC)

That build relies on spesific skill combinations to make P/A and P/D work effectivly. This article is more about genral stratagy, where it would not be recommended to use P/A or P/D. -- RandomTime 12:57, July 13, 2010 (UTC)